1 Tuesday, 21 March 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Will the registrar please call
7 the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number
9 IT-96-23-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac,
10 Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: I take it the parties are as
12 before, and we'll simply proceed.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Madam President,
14 Your Honours.
15 Before I commence this morning, I might just
16 ask formally for an order of this Court to allow the
17 procedure that we hope to adopt this morning with
18 respect to witness protection. I've spoken to my
19 learned friends, and they have agreed to the screen and
20 facial alteration for purposes of the television
21 cameras. This witness was not part of any formal
22 application prior to this, the matter was brought to
23 our attention only recently, and we are seeking an
24 order from this Court permitting this process this
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can you confirm that you
2 agree with the protective orders?
3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
4 Honour. I agree with my learned colleague. We have
5 discussed it, and there will be protective measures and
6 the request for them.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. We may proceed. So
8 the protective measures asked for are hereby granted.
9 We can proceed.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. Might
11 the witness be sworn.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
13 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
14 and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS 33
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
18 Q. Witness, before you, the usher will show you
19 a piece of paper that I'd like you to look at, please.
20 You've looked at the piece of paper, and does that
21 paper bear your name and a witness number?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I'm going to be referring to you by that
24 number throughout these proceedings, and I understand
25 that the other parties in these proceedings will also
1 refer to you by number only, not your name.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: I understand that the note is
3 being shown to members of the Court. Thank you. If
4 that is to be marked as an exhibit, I suppose we're up
5 to 176, although I do not know whether you wish it to
6 become an exhibit. Perhaps it ought to.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Under seal.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Under seal, yes, please. And
11 is that number 176, by my calculation?
12 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar?
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The number of
14 this witness, it is Witness 33, and it will be Exhibit
15 176, Prosecution 176.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
18 Q. Now, Witness, I understand that you are, in
19 fact, a medical doctor and received your medical
20 training in Belgrade; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that is correct. I am a doctor, I
22 graduated from the Faculty of Medicine in Belgrade, the
23 general part, and I did my specialisation in Belgrade
24 and sub-specialisation course in Zagreb.
25 Q. And your speciality was paediatrics; is that
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. Now, you grew up in the Foca municipality.
4 A. I did.
5 Q. You married there and had children there.
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And you worked there in your profession and
8 taught school to other medical students in the Foca
9 area in the years leading up to 1992 and shortly
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 Q. Can you tell us what your ethnicity or
15 religious affiliation is?
16 A. By religion I am a Muslim, and by ethnicity I
17 am a Bosniak.
18 Q. Yes. Do I understand correctly that you were
19 not involved in any political activities prior to the
21 A. No, I was not.
22 Q. I wonder if you'd be so kind as to tell us
23 your understanding of the relationship between Muslims
24 and Serbs in the time when you lived in Foca, prior to
25 1990. Just generally speaking, what was the state of
1 the relationship between the people living in Foca?
2 A. Before the war, the relations were such as
3 you could only wish for. We all lived the same life.
4 We didn't divide ourselves into Serbs, Croats, Muslims,
5 or any other ethnic group. We all lived together. We
6 were all kum to each other's families. We married;
7 there were 30 per cent of intermarriages in Bosnia. We
8 would celebrate the new year together and all the other
9 holidays and festivities. We would go to other
10 religious celebrations celebrated by our neighbours,
11 the Serbs and the Croats; they would come to us for our
12 own festivities and holidays; we would all celebrate
13 the feasts together. It was the kind of life that you
14 could only wish for.
15 Q. And I understand that at some point that
16 blissful relationship changed; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct. They changed sort of
18 overnight, unfortunately.
19 Q. I would like you to turn your mind to the
20 year 1990, or thereabouts, and tell us if there is any
21 particular incident that showed that there was a
23 A. Well, I couldn't say precisely what
24 particular time it was, 1990, but in Foca rifts began
25 to be apparent between the Serbs or Muslims. Perhaps
1 there was an incident called the Focatrans, which is a
2 transport firm, and there was some disagreement between
3 the director of the firm, who was a Muslim, and several
4 of the workers who were of Serb ethnicity.
5 And after that, there was the formation of
6 the national parties. Whether that was in 1990 or
7 1991, I really don't know, because I wasn't a member of
8 any nationalist party.
9 But we continued to live in harmony together,
10 although you could feel something in the air, that
11 something was happening, something which was making
12 this divide between people. I couldn't express this in
13 words. I couldn't tell you how this was. You could
14 notice this. It wasn't in the streets. It wasn't
15 anywhere tangible. It was just conflicts between
16 people of different ethnic groups.
17 And that is when the national parties were
18 formed, the SDA and the SDS. The national party SDA
19 belonged to the Muslim side, the SDS was the Serbian
20 party. And I think that this led to a terrible divide
21 between people. It separated people, and later on it
22 led to the things that happened. For example, the
23 leaders of the national parties wanted to have their
24 own national states, and this affected us. It
25 influenced us. We thought that perhaps something would
1 happen, and that if we were to divide ourselves up, we
2 wouldn't be able to live the life that we had lived up
3 till then. And those of us who did not belong to any
4 of the nationalistic parties found this very hard to
6 Q. All right. You referred to the SDS and the
7 SDA as the two national parties that were created in, I
8 take it, approximately that time, was it?
9 A. I think it was 1990. I'm not quite sure,
10 though. You know, I didn't belong to any of these
11 parties, so I'm not quite sure when that was. But I
12 think that it was in that year, or around those years
13 that the nationalist parties were formed.
14 Q. The creation of the SDS or the founding of
15 the SDS, do you know -- do you recall an incident
16 involving the football stadium in Foca and any reports
17 of what occurred at that meeting of the SDS?
18 A. At the stadium in Foca, the SDS was founded.
19 I wasn't there, but it was open to the public, all
20 people of all nationalities could take part. They
21 could go and listen to see what was being said, what
22 the plans and programmes of the party were. So I
23 wasn't there, but as far as I know, the leading people
24 from the republican SDS were there, such as Biljana
25 Plavsic, Maksimovic, Ostojic, and probably Karadzic.
1 I'm not quite sure, as I say. But I heard about this
2 later on, and heard about it on the radio and in the
3 press and television. And one of my colleagues was
4 there from a neighbouring municipality. His name was
5 Dusko Kornjaca.
6 And what I was astonished with, as an
7 individual and as a doctor and humanist, were the
8 declarations that were made, and that the Drina, the
9 River Drina would flow bloody again.
10 This is what happened during World War II,
11 blood in the River Drina. And this is something that I
12 couldn't understand, how could people say such things,
13 things that were not akin to human dignity or to our
14 profession, or in line with a meeting of this kind,
15 after such harmonious life in common life together.
16 How could people make statements of that kind?
17 Q. From TV and radio reports, as well as what
18 you understood your colleagues to have said at that
19 meeting, was there any indication to you as to what the
20 fate of the Muslims in Foca would be, what would happen
21 to them? Was it intended that they continue to remain
22 in Foca?
23 A. The republican assembly, that is to say the
24 republican parliament, we always watched sessions on
25 television, and in recent years the two parties, who
1 were nationalist parties, began to quarrel. There were
2 constant quarrels between them. And I recall one
3 particular statement made by Karadzic when he said,
4 "Either Bosnia will be divided according to the ethnic
5 principle, or one of the nations will be wiped out from
6 these areas, and that would be the Muslims." And of
7 course every normal human being would begin to be
8 afraid of something like that. But nobody believed
9 that anything like that could ever happen.
10 Q. Thank you, witness. I would like you now to
11 turn your mind to a time about a week before the
12 outbreak of war in Foca. So we are talking about the
13 beginning of April, end of March 1992.
14 Can you tell us what the situation was like
15 in Foca, in terms of the tensions in the air or the
16 state of relationships between people about a week
17 prior to the war?
18 A. As far as I remember, and as far as
19 relationships among colleagues -- my colleagues went in
20 the hospital, the relationships remained the same. But
21 there was something that was a little strange, and that
22 was that my colleagues at the Serb nationality would
23 meet in a room alone, and if somebody would go into
24 that room -- and I liked to always comment openly about
25 everything with everyone -- they would stop talking
1 when I went into the room. And I would say, "Well,
2 carry on talking. I'd like to hear what you are
3 talking about. Is it anything that is against us or
4 things of that kind?" But I never received an answer.
5 But, as I say, relations between us were also
6 always friendly and proper amongst us. They stayed the
8 But what happened in town, although I can
9 only say that I heard talks about that, because I
10 worked a great deal, I worked in the hospital very
11 hard, so all the stories I heard, I heard from other
12 people who came to the hospital, either from my
13 colleagues or from the nurses who would bring these
14 stories back from their homes in town. They said that
15 there was a lot of talk of the division of SUP, which
16 is the Secretariat for Internal Affairs, it was called
17 SUP, and that this divided into two parts, into the
18 Serbian section and the Muslim section.
19 So that the people were divided in that way,
20 practically in two parts in town; the Serbian part and
21 the Muslim part. I'm not talking about the Croatian
22 part here, because there were very few Croats in our
24 And this was something that scared us a great
25 deal, because to divide institutions which are there to
1 protect both ethnic groups must necessarily lead to
2 something bad. And, as far as I know, people who were
3 employed in the SUP did not agree to that division,
4 because they had been working in the SUP for many
5 years. They were friends. They had quite proper and
6 correct relationships. There was no reason for this
7 division. But the leading people from the SDS, and I
8 think these were Maksimovic, Ostojic, Cancar, people
9 like that, they insisted upon this division. And I
10 think that that is what occurred, that there was this
11 division which led to general chaos.
12 Q. If I can stop you there for a moment and just
13 back you up to clarify a couple of issues that came up
14 during your answer. First of all, you indicated that
15 your professional colleagues at the hospital would stop
16 talking or some of those people would stop talking.
17 Were these people also Muslims or were they Serbs?
18 A. They didn't stop talking to us, but they
19 would, say, be in a room together, uni-nationally, if I
20 can say that, and they would be discussing a subject,
21 and if one of their colleagues, a Muslim, went into the
22 room, they would stop talking. But our contacts
23 continued, our professional contacts. They would just
24 stop talking if they were in a room together. The
25 Serbs, for example, if they were in a room, the medical
1 staff, and they were discussing something, if any of us
2 Muslims were to enter the room, they would stop
3 talking, which we didn't find very nice. But, as I
4 say, our relations as colleagues remained the same.
5 But they would stop talking when any of us would enter
6 the room. And this gave rise to some doubts that
7 something was perhaps amiss.
8 Q. All right. The second part of the
9 clarification I was looking for is you mentioned SUP,
10 and I think you told us what that means. Am I correct
11 in understanding that that is another name for the
12 local police; is that correct? Or am I wrong in that?
13 A. Yes, that's right. That was the name of the
14 local police.
15 Q. And you gave it another name. It was a
16 Ministry of the Interior or something. What did you
17 call it?
18 A. Secretariat of the Internal Affairs or SUP.
19 Q. And that is the actual police force that
20 regulated the laws around Foca municipality, or Foca
21 town? Nodding your head, meaning yes?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. Now, just so that I am clear on this point,
24 do I understand that the politicians of the day were
25 wanting to divide the police force into a Serbian
1 section and a Muslim section; is that what you were
2 telling us?
3 A. Yes, that's what I was telling you. The
4 politicians wanted to divide the police force into a
5 Serbian section and a Muslim section, which would
6 continue to contact, maintain contacts, but the Serbs
7 would work with the Serbs, the Muslims with the
8 Muslims, and they would contact amongst themselves,
9 between themselves. That was what was being said
10 around town.
11 Q. And that was a change, obviously, from what
12 had been there before?
13 A. It was a big change, yes, and we were very
14 much afraid of that change because we did not expect
15 that anything bad could happen after the wonderful life
16 we had together, after our lovely communal life, and we
17 never had any reason to fear anything. But as soon as
18 you begin to divide people into two parts, there is
19 always the fear that something could happen to make
20 relationships become difficult between the ethnic
22 Q. Now, was there any evidence that you could
23 see or hear about that that indicated people were
24 starting to react to this division? In other words,
25 did everybody remain in Foca, or did people start to
2 A. We wondered, my colleagues, in concrete
3 terms, because they were closest to me, why they would
4 take their families away to Serbia, or their children,
5 at least, if not their wives, why they took them to
6 Serbia and Montenegro. This wasn't quite clear to us.
7 We wondered what was going to happen. But our
8 colleague -- our children would come to us if they were
9 somewhere else, and we weren't fully conscious of the
10 situation that existed.
11 Later on, when matters took the turn they
12 did, we realised that they must have known what was
13 going to happen and, therefore, that they wanted to
14 protect their own children; that is how I came to
15 understand it. They wanted to protect their children,
16 but we didn't protect ours, because the Muslim feast of
17 Bajram was coming up and all of our children who were
18 out of Foca came home for the holidays. I have two
19 children, for example, they're both students, and they
20 both came home for the Bajram holiday.
21 Q. From your answer, am I to assume, or are we
22 to assume, that people were moving out of Foca?
23 A. As I said, the children and the women who
24 were not employed would leave Foca, with their
1 Q. Were these Serbian families that were leaving
2 with their children, or were there Muslim families that
3 were leaving with their families?
4 A. They were Serbian families with their
5 children, they were the ones who were going off.
6 Q. Just so that we're also clear, what time
7 period are we now talking about?
8 A. Well, let me see. It might have been some
9 ten days before, let us say, the war began in Foca,
10 that is to say, when the shooting started, when
11 barricades were erected. So it was about that time.
12 And it was on the 8th of April that shooting started in
13 Foca, and this was some ten days before. Perhaps some
14 Muslim families left as well, I don't know, perhaps
15 they were informed of what was going to happen. But I
16 do know that my colleagues and their families would go
17 to Serbia and Montenegro, and other well-to-do people
18 in town who were able to take their families off did
20 Q. All right. Now, did you hear anything about
21 other strange developments that were happening in this
22 time period leading up to the war, in particular, with
23 respect to weaponry or the Serbs preparing with
25 A. This was in the press, it was also on
1 television. They would show trucks transporting arms
2 from Serbia to Bosnia, and it was said that these
3 trucks were moving around at night to arm the Serb
4 families. I didn't see that; I just heard that this
5 was going on in Foca as well.
6 Q. Was there any later evidence that supported
7 these, call it, rumours?
8 A. Well, I think it was confirmation of that
9 because when the shooting started, practically all the
10 Serbs were armed.
11 Q. Now, you indicated that you worked in a
12 hospital. Can you tell us anything about things such
13 as medical supplies or medicines that fit into this
14 pattern that we've been talking about?
15 A. Several months before the war broke out,
16 perhaps three to four months prior to the war, we had
17 great shortages of bandages and all the other equipment
18 used in surgery, gynaecology, the eye, ear, nose
19 surgery department, and people began to notice that the
20 bandages, the drips, and everything necessary to treat
21 the wounded and injured had begun to be lacking in the
22 hospital. Some people said they saw some ten trucks
23 going off one day, taking away the reserve medical
24 equipment, and that they had taken practically all the
25 bandages, the drips, and all this, that they had taken
1 them off.
2 We had a separate building, which was behind
3 the main hospital building, where we held these
4 reserves, and these trucks, with Trebinje number
5 plates, had probably taken all this material off to the
6 Dubrovnik front, because the war in Croatia was already
7 in full swing. So they would take all the bandages and
8 drips from the hospital. And I heard that this medical
9 equipment was being taken to the surrounding villages,
10 where allegedly they were preparing field hospitals so
11 that they could have all this medical equipment at
13 Q. Do I understand you correctly to say that
14 this process of stockpiling of medicines and
15 transporting them was occurring before the 8th of
16 April, the outbreak of the war, the three- to
17 four-month period leading up to that?
18 A. Yes, before that, three to four months before
19 the war broke out. But we didn't pay any attention to
20 this. It was only later on, when everything else
21 happened, that we were able to link this up with the
22 subsequent events.
23 Q. Where were the pharmaceutical supplies kept
24 in Foca, before they got to the hospital?
25 A. Where the pharmaceutical supplies were kept.
1 Well, there was a building behind the hospital, some 50
2 metres behind the hospital, which was built for wartime
3 reserves of this kind, purposely, and what the hospital
4 used, that was in the hospital pharmacy, one of the
5 buildings that made up the hospital complex; that was
6 where these pharmaceuticals were kept.
7 Q. Was there also a warehouse of a
8 pharmaceutical company in Foca?
9 A. Yes, there was a warehouse. There was a
10 warehouse of medical supplies. It was nearby, near the
11 Aladza High School. It was called the Velafarmacija
12 warehouse, and there were major medical supplies
14 Q. Do you know who the director of that
15 warehouse was and what her ethnicity was?
16 A. In the hospital, the director of the hospital
17 pharmacy was Vitomir Mrgud; he was an ethnic Serb. In
18 Vela Farmacija, there was Milka Przulj; she was also an
19 ethnic Serb.
20 Q. I see. And these were the people, then, that
21 would control the pharmaceutical supplies.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, were there any imminent
24 warnings about the outbreak of war, just leading up to
25 the 8th of April?
1 A. I think it was around the 5th of April. In
2 Foca, on the 5th of April, in the evening, there was a
3 peace rally; Muslims and Serbs took part in it. It was
4 a Sunday evening. Serbs and Muslims were there; my
5 children were also there, they were university students
6 at the time. I did not attend the rally. I don't know
7 how many people were there.
8 Also, this was broadcast on television all
9 the time. There were ads that were running on
10 television, saying that we were in favour of peace,
11 that we did not want war. For example, we saw on
12 television that there were military units on the
13 move -- I didn't see this personally, but I saw it on
14 television -- military units moving towards Sarajevo,
15 towards Trebinje, towards -- well, that was what was on
16 television; it was in the press as well. We did not
17 think that anything bad would happen, even at that
18 stage. There wasn't any reason for that, we thought.
19 Q. All right. Now, you lived in Foca most of
20 your life, and you've told us that prior to the
21 outbreak of the war, it was a peaceful community and
22 everybody got along. Is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. I take it you must have had many friends who
25 are of different ethnicity or religion from you; is
1 that correct?
2 A. I had several friends who were ethnic Serbs.
3 Actually, I had more ethnic Serb friends than ethnic
4 Muslim friends. My very own sister is married to a
5 Serb; my mother's brother is married to a Serb; another
6 brother of my mother is married to a French person; and
7 another close relative is married to a Croat. So this
8 was really a small-scale Yugoslavia, so to speak.
9 Q. What that question is leading up to is, were
10 there any warnings from your friends, to either you or
11 to your neighbours, about the imminent outbreak of the
12 war, any warnings to leave town, or anything of that
14 A. That is a very painful question. What pains
15 me the most as a person, and as a professional, as a
16 friend, a colleague, is that none of my colleagues,
17 none of my friends, told me anything about this. I had
18 two children too. I worked in Foca; I worked there for
19 29 years. Everybody knew me well. I helped everyone.
20 Even outside working hours, I practically had a clinic
21 at my own home and no one ever paid a dinar for it. It
22 pains me immensely. I'm sorry. No one said a word to
23 me; no one told me what would happen.
24 Q. I am going to ask you now -- if you need a
25 moment, just to have a drink. As difficult as this may
1 be for you, I am going to ask you now to turn to the
2 8th of April 1992. And I would ask you to share with
3 us, if you would, in your own words, what happened on
4 that day that changed your life?
5 A. On the 8th of April 1992, like all others, I
6 went to work at 7.00 in the morning. However, the
7 hospital bus was not there. A few of us who met along
8 the road, we started walking to work. We encountered
9 two roadblocks at Gornje Polje. There were people in
10 civilian clothes there. But they had some kind of caps
11 or socks on their heads, so I could not recognise these
12 men. I did not have any problems, neither I nor my
13 colleagues, but, for example, the nurses that passed
14 there too, they didn't have any problems either.
15 So we went to the hospital and then people
16 started coming to the hospital en masse. Those who
17 were employed there, those whose families had remained
18 in Foca, they came to the hospital and they brought
19 their children, in the belief that something would
20 happen, that there were roadblocks there, the police
21 was divided. They sought refuge at the hospital.
22 Together with a colleague, I took an
23 ambulance to town in order to bring my family and for
24 him to bring his family. However, my family did not
25 want to leave our home. I remained at the apartment
1 that we lived in with them.
2 Q. I am going to ask you just to slow down a
3 little bit so that the interpreter can stay up with
4 us. Okay.
5 Now, I understand you've painted the
6 background. Did you actually go to the hospital or did
7 you stay at home? I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I
8 understood that correctly.
9 A. I stayed at home. I stayed at home because
10 my family did not want to leave our home.
11 Q. All right. And did you at some point go to
12 the hospital at all?
13 A. Not at that time, no. I was in the basement
14 of my apartment building and together with all the
15 other tenants. The shooting had started already by
16 then. There was more and more shooting. We spent most
17 of the time in the shelter. During the day, when
18 shooting would abate a bit, I would go out. However, I
19 was afraid because the windows were drilled by bullets,
20 so I would crawl around the apartment.
21 Q. In what area of Foca was your home; what
23 A. My home was in the centre of town, opposite
24 the Cehotina, across the street from the Zelengora
25 Hotel. That's the part that doesn't belong to Aladza
1 or Gornje Polje.
2 Q. All right. I am showing you a map later on,
3 but at the moment -- so you are in your home. Now, was
4 this a private dwelling or was it an apartment complex
5 or maybe you could describe where you were living?
6 A. It was in an apartment building, a
7 nine-storey apartment building with 27 apartments in
8 it. Serbs and Muslims lived in the building. We were
9 in the basement together. Some of the Serb families
10 did not go downstairs to the basement, however, most of
11 them were in the basement.
12 Q. So, I take it then, the residents of the
13 apartment block, Muslims and Serbs, sought refuge in
14 the basement; is that what I am understanding you are
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were seeking refuge from what?
18 A. They were shooting in town. There was
19 shooting in town. I don't know who was shooting or
20 what was shooting. The windows were drilled. The
21 small bullets would go through the window panes,
22 through the furniture, and then in the evening there
23 would be even more shooting. I'm not knowledgeable, I
24 don't know about weapons and things like that. Maybe
25 it was shells or something. We were in the basement at
1 the time, so you would just hear it. This shooting
2 would get stronger.
3 Q. How would you eat?
4 A. How did we eat?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Well, I already said that I would go out
7 during the day, and during the night, but I would crawl
8 most of the time. We would prepare bread for a few
9 days, and then we'd eat sandwiches. We'd have things
10 like spread for bread and salami, ham something.
11 Q. I see. Now, when you left the basement,
12 could you see what kind of damage was suffered by your
14 A. Yes. When the shooting would stop, then we
15 would see that the glass was broken, and also some of
16 the furniture was torn, the upholstery from the bullets
17 that had hit it, and then, if there was a display
18 cabinet, then things would get broken in it.
19 Q. I see. How long did you stay in the basement
20 with your neighbours?
21 A. Eight days. From the 8th until the 14th of
23 Q. Part of the time while you were there, could
24 you see what was happening to the rest of town?
25 A. One evening -- well, we didn't spend much
1 time in the apartment. Our apartment was on the fourth
2 floor, so it was pretty high up. But one evening, it
3 was peaceful, there wasn't that much shooting. I think
4 it was the 12th of April. The town was illuminated.
5 And when we looked on one side, we saw that a part of
6 town was on fire. Before it was called the Prijeka
7 Carsija. That's a part of town where there were shops
8 in the style that was reminiscent of the period between
9 the two world wars. There were mostly small shops made
10 of wood. It's a special kind of building. It's more
11 Oriental. That part was on fire. That was burning.
12 And it had illuminated the entire area.
13 Q. Perhaps the witness at this point could be
14 shown, I think what has been marked in these
15 proceedings now as 12/1. That was the replacement map
16 that -- may I just see if that's the correct one.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, I am showing you this document, Exhibit
19 12/1. First of all, perhaps we can put it on the
20 ELMO. Thank you, Mr. Usher. Although I expect that
21 the witness may need to actually have this -- since we
22 all have copies of the document, I think it may be
23 easier if the witness has the document right in front
24 of her, rather than using the ELMO, unless the Court is
25 going to need to have her point to it. I think there
1 is a legend which will assist us with numbers.
2 I don't know whether the TV screen is going
3 to be as good for the witness as the actual document.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it's better to use the
5 ELMO, because of the screening of the face of the
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I had forgotten
8 about that little detail.
9 Q. First of all, Witness 33, are you able to
10 recognise this map? Do you know what that is a map of?
11 A. I can recognise it.
12 Q. Do you recognise that as being a map of Foca?
13 A. I recognise this as a map of Foca. This is
14 Privredna Banka. This is an industrial part of town.
15 Q. Just stop for a moment. First of all, did
16 you assist the Office of the Prosecutor in preparing
17 this map, by identifying some of the areas that are
18 marked with numbers on this map?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. So this is based on information
21 that you supplied to the Office of the Prosecutor; is
22 that correct? Nodding your head?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness always answer,
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. RYNEVELD:
2 Q. All right. So you recognise this as a map of
3 Foca. And you were about to point something out to us
4 with the pointer, when I stopped you. Would you return
5 with the pointer to indicate for the Court what it is
6 you are about to describe?
7 A. This here is the very beginning. This is the
8 bank of the Drina River. It's on my right-hand side.
9 This is Brod. That is an industrial area. And then,
10 as you go downstream, you move towards Foca.
11 Q. For the record, you had just pointed to the
12 area on the lower left-hand corner of the map just
13 above the area labelled Brod?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You are moving your pointer upwards along the
16 Drina River?
17 A. Now we are moving towards the town of Foca.
18 Towards the town of Foca. Number 1 is Partizan. That
19 is a sports hall. Number 2 is the SUP, the Secretariat
20 of the Interior, the police. Then number 3 is the
21 municipality. Number 4 is a building.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ryneveld, the authenticity
23 of this document is conceded. Do we really need to
24 have it proved?
25 MR. RYNEVELD: I am not attempting to prove
1 it, as much as I am attempting to acquaint the witness
2 with it, and then ask the witness some questions about
3 these buildings.
4 JUDGE HUNT: You got her to agree that she
5 assisted in its compilation, so let's get on with what
6 she wants to say about it.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I
9 Q. Witness, you've told us about the area that
10 you saw burning, and you've described to us that this
11 was, as I understand it, a rebuilt area after World War
12 II, and that it was of wood construction. Could you
13 describe to us where that area would be on the map, if
14 it's on the map.
15 A. I have to get a bit closer to this.
16 Q. Can her chair be moved or not? No, I guess
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's
19 microphone please be moved so the interpreters could
20 hear her.
21 A. Donje Polje is a settlement which is on the
22 other side of the road. It was predominantly Muslim,
23 perhaps 90 per cent. These were privately owned
24 homes. And on the other side of the road were
25 apartment buildings where ethnic Serbs, ethnic Muslims,
1 and members of other ethnicities lived. I don't know
2 everything about this, but I think that most of this
3 part of town was burned down.
4 Q. All right. So the area that you are
5 referring to is where? Could you just point to it with
6 the pointer? The area you saw burning on the 12th of
7 April, the area you were trying to describe to us.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You are now pointing -- just below the
10 building referred to with the arrow number 7?
11 A. I am sorry. This was not on fire on the 12th
12 of April. Prijeka Carsija was on fire on the 12th of
13 April, and Prijeka Carsija is not marked on this map.
14 But that is a part of town that was in another area
15 from the Partizan Sports Hall towards the centre of
16 town, more or less, where -- how shall I put this?
17 This was a part that belonged to Gornje Polje, in part,
18 which is here. So that is not the part that was on
19 fire on the 12th of April. Prijeka Carsija was on fire
20 on the 12th of April, and it has not been marked on
21 this map. It is above the Zelengora Hotel in the
22 opposite direction. I really don't know how to locate
23 it now. There was a mosque there, which was also
24 destroyed, and then from that mosque there was a
25 marketplace. And then from that marketplace there was
1 a road going uphill towards Prijeka Carsija. But all
2 of this is not marked on this map.
3 Q. Perhaps I can just ask you now to tell us,
4 did something happen on the 14th of April, and if so,
5 what was that?
6 A. On the 14th of April, some of my Serb
7 acquaintances called me during the night and said that
8 the military police would come in the morning to have a
9 look at people's apartments, to see whether anybody had
10 any weapons; if there were weapons, they would collect
11 them; that nothing would happen to us.
12 Of course, all of us were downstairs, at the
13 very entrance of the building, sometime about 6.00 or
14 6.30 a.m. A few people came, and then they told us to
15 go outside. We all went out, Serbs and Muslims, and we
16 went behind the building. They asked for all of those
17 who had weapons to surrender them. Everybody
18 surrendered their weapons, whoever had them. These
19 were people who had permits for these weapons, given by
20 that police station I mentioned. For example, my
21 husband had a pistol and he had a permit with it, so he
22 handed it over, the pistol and the permit.
23 Then we were told to go through a schoolyard,
24 there was a school there nearby, to go towards a clinic
25 that was there. At that point, I remembered that the
1 bag where my husband's medicines were -- my husband was
2 ill -- was not with me. So I asked whether I could go
3 back and get my bag. One of the men who was present
4 there, I could not recognise him -- although he
5 addressed me as "Doctor," so he probably knew me
6 well -- and I said that I would come back as soon as I
7 got my bag with my medicines.
8 When I came back -- he also had this mask,
9 this cap on his head. I did not recognise him. It
10 wasn't really important. What was important for me was
11 to get the bag with these medicines. My husband could
12 not live without these medicines, so it was important
13 for me to get these medicines and the bag.
14 As we went back to my apartment, we came to
15 the door, I took the bag, and he said, "Doctor, if you
16 want to, go in and take all the valuables you have at
17 home." I just looked at him and I said, "Everything
18 that is inside is very valuable for me because this is
19 my home. This has been my home for almost 30 years;
20 I've been accumulating all of this." So I just closed
21 the door and left.
22 Then, he and I came to this local clinic.
23 There were other citizens there from the neighbouring
24 buildings; there were Serbs and Muslims. We were told
25 that we were safer there, and we stayed inside. There
1 was a man there whose name was Nedjo, I don't know
2 exactly what his last name was, and we were told that
3 he worked at the Privredna Banka.
4 Then we were lined up, two by two, and we
5 were taken out to the fields; that is exactly what was
6 done. We started moving towards Livade. You can see
7 it on the map; it is number 9, the high school centre.
8 Over there, in front of the high school
9 centre building, there were lots of soldiers with
10 different insignia, with black caps; then with red
11 caps, like berets, with white armbands. We stopped for
12 about five minutes there, and then we proceeded towards
13 Livade, along this road that goes further up. Over
14 here, it says number 10 [indicates]; that is where
15 Livade is. That's where we were. That is where
16 military warehouses were before, and afterwards, the
17 Perucica Trade Company had its warehouses there.
18 On the side were soldiers who had rifles, and
19 they were walking by us. A soldier, at one point,
20 walked up to me. He did not have one of these caps
21 that disguised his face. I recognised him because I
22 knew him from medical school, and I even made a little
23 joke, and I said, "Had I known that you would do this
24 to me, I would not have been so nice to you in school,"
25 and he said, "Doctor, I want to help you. Don't let
1 them take you to Velecevo," because that is where the
2 women's prison was, and "They might even beat you up
3 there. Go to Livade."
4 So we were taken to Livade. There was a big
5 hangar there at Livade. These warehouses were called
6 hangars. Then there was another one opposite that one,
7 and there was a third one that was on the side, and in
8 between was an empty space. We spent some time there,
9 and then this Nedjo reappeared. Also, there were some
10 men who wore olive-grey military uniforms. They did
11 not have any masks or caps on.
12 Then they registered our names. Nobody asked
13 either me or my family what our names or surnames
14 were. Probably the person who was making this list
15 knew us very well. But they registered the Muslims on
16 one piece of paper and the Serbs on another piece of
17 paper. This was a bit suspicious, and it was also a
18 bit insulting. We got out of the same building, we
19 lived together, and now, all of a sudden, we were
21 After some time, perhaps an hour or two, the
22 Serbs dispersed and returned to their homes, whereas we
23 stayed there.
24 Q. I'll stop you there. When you say "the Serbs
25 dispersed and returned to their homes," and you stayed
1 there, you need to tell us who you're talking about.
2 Are these the people that had been taken from the
3 apartments and brought to Livade?
4 Again, nodding your head for "yes". Maybe
5 you can just stop at this point and tell us who was
6 assembled and whose names were being taken and put on
7 two different lists. Who were those people?
8 A. I don't know. I didn't know them. The only
9 thing that I saw was this man Nedjo, whom I didn't know
10 from before, but they said his name was Nedjo and he
11 worked in the commercial bank. There were three or
12 four men who were wearing military uniforms, and they
13 drew up these lists; one for the Muslims, another one
14 for the Serbs. So on one of these lists were the names
15 of the Muslims, and the other list contained the names
16 of the Serbs. There were about 100 of us there,
17 perhaps 120.
18 Q. Just stop there for a moment. I apologise
19 that my question obviously wasn't specific enough. I'm
20 talking about the 100 to 120 people that were assembled
21 there. Were those all people that were brought to this
22 place, like you and your neighbours were?
23 A. Yes. Yes. Those people who were there were
24 people from the neighbouring apartment blocks, next to
25 my own, where I lived.
1 Q. I see. After these lists were made up, you
2 say that the Serbs went back to their homes. Who are
3 you talking about? Are these part of this 100 or 120
4 people that were assembled there?
5 A. Yes. They were Serbs who were part of these
6 people, some of our neighbours who lived in those
7 apartment blocks.
8 Q. So the people on the Serb lists got to go
9 home; is that what you're telling us?
10 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I was telling
12 Q. Thank you. I'm sorry if I didn't understand
13 that, and I had to get it clarified. What happened to
14 the people on the Muslim list?
15 A. As there were a lot of us, and there wasn't
16 much space in that one hangar, this man Nedjo -- I
17 refer to him as "Nedjo" because that's what people
18 called him -- Nedjo said, "If somebody has somebody he
19 knows here, they can go and spend the night with them
20 and come back in the morning." I happened to know one
21 family called Bojat, the man's wife worked in the
22 hospital and I treated her grandchildren, and I said
23 that I could go to them, to stay with them. He phoned
24 them up and asked whether we could come; they agreed.
25 And so we went off, escorted, once again, by a young
1 man wearing a military uniform, olive-green, whom I
2 happened to know very well. His name was Bojat too,
3 and he was a paramedic who worked in the hospital. He
4 escorted us to the Bojat house, where we spent the
5 night. In the morning, we returned to where the
6 hangars were.
7 Q. Back to Livade.
8 A. Yes, to Livade. That's what we were told.
9 Q. All right. What happened once you were
10 returned to Livade?
11 A. Then they divided us up into rooms. This
12 hangar had two rooms and a large hall, and there were
13 about 100 people there who were brought in during the
14 night. So in these two rooms, you had practically all
15 these people. In the room in which I was, with my own
16 family and with some 30 other people, it was a small
17 room, three-by-three metres, and there were quite a lot
18 of us there. There were even more people in the other
19 room; I don't know exactly how many because I didn't
20 leave my own room, so I can't say. Nor did I wish to
21 contact anybody or ask around. I was only interested
22 in my family and what was going to happen to us.
23 In the other hangar, which was perhaps some
24 20 metres away from the first hangar, one of the people
25 who were dressed in the uniforms told me that there
1 were some of my colleagues who had been put up there,
2 who had worked in the outpatients department. He took
3 me there, and I did indeed find one of my colleagues
4 there, who was also in the camp, Dr. Sadinlija,
5 Dr. Karovic, Seid Selimovic, and there were three
6 drivers from the same outpatients department, ambulance
8 Q. Fine. Perhaps I could stop you there and ask
9 you, how long were you kept at Livade?
10 A. I was kept at Livade for four days. They
11 would let the women and children and elderly -- when we
12 came, when it was our turn, we asked, "Can we go?" and
13 they said yes. But when we were to actually leave and
14 go out, they said that me and my daughter could leave
15 but that my husband and my son could not. I then said,
16 on all three days, the first, second, and third day,
17 they said that I could -- I said that I would only
18 leave dead, that I wouldn't leave.
19 Q. All right. Just very briefly, while you were
20 at Livade, the ethnicity of the people that were there
21 with you in these hangars, were they all Muslims?
22 A. They were all Muslims, apart from one of my
23 neighbours who was a Serb, and another neighbour, he
24 was also a Serb; and there was one more who left very
25 quickly, he left the next day, he was also a Serb from
1 Serbia. I know the two others, the first two; that is
2 to say, one man worked in the Maglic enterprise, I
3 think he was a forestry technician, and the other man,
4 I think, worked in one of the institutes -- an
5 insurance brokerage, something like that.
6 Q. While at Livade, did you see any injured
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. In particular, what type of injuries, and how
11 A. I know that two Selimovic brothers were
12 brought in who were beaten up badly. One of them, his
13 eye had almost fallen out, and they were hardly able to
14 move. I don't know exactly what type of injuries they
15 were because they were in the other room and I was not
16 able to examine them personally. Nobody asked me to do
17 that, to help them in that way, and I didn't dare do
18 that on my own.
19 Another person was brought in, he was a
20 paramedic and his name was Enis Uzunovic. He was also
21 beaten up. How, I don't know, but he was barely able
22 to breathe, and he probably had some ribs broken.
23 There were others too whom I didn't know.
24 Q. Did you see these people before they were
25 beaten up and then afterwards, or were they just
1 brought in in that condition?
2 A. I just saw them when they were brought in in
3 that condition.
4 Q. While you were at Livade, those three to four
5 days, were you fed and able to wash yourself, and were
6 there facilities provided?
7 A. No, there weren't. There were hangars
8 intended to function as warehouses. There were no
9 toilets. If you wanted to go to the toilet, you had to
10 go outside. And I apologise for having to say this.
11 If you wanted to empty your bowels, you would have to
12 be escorted by an escort. If you wanted to do anything
13 else, you would go upstairs to be excused. And, in
14 fact, this would all drain down and flow down into the
15 lower premises, because they weren't proper facilities.
16 Q. In any event, your stay at Livade stopped
17 after about four days. Tell us how that ended and
18 where you went from there?
19 A. One evening it was raining, it was very dark,
20 trucks came. We got into the trucks and they took us
21 off to the KP Dom, the penitentiary, which we all knew
22 from previous times in Foca.
23 Q. Yes. And when you say "we were taken," were
24 all the people in the room and your family included?
25 A. The whole of my family and the people from
1 all the hangars were taken off that night to the KP
3 Q. And what happened when you got there?
4 A. It was night-time. We were put into
5 different rooms. I was placed in a room together with
6 my family and several other people. There were eight
7 beds to a room, and there were 12 of us. In the other
8 room, there were about 50 beds and about 75 people. I
9 don't know what the situation was like in the third
10 room, because I didn't leave my own room, only when I
11 had to. But we had a toilet in the room and water as
12 well, and we had blankets. So that was, in fact, the
13 inventory that belonged to the penitentiary beforehand
14 that we found there when we got there.
15 Q. While there, did you see any of your previous
17 A. I saw Dr. Sadinlija again, Dr. Karovic as
18 well, Dr. Selimovic, and they brought in Dr. Torlak
19 later on. I thought he had come to examine somebody,
20 but he was brought in from hospital. He wore his
21 hospital uniform. He was a surgeon. I saw some other
22 paramedics whose names I don't remember.
23 Q. The names of these doctors you've just listed
24 for us, did you know their ethnicity?
25 A. Yes, I did. They were my colleagues. They
1 worked in Foca. We all knew each other. Yes, I knew
2 who they were, what they were. I don't think any of
3 them, except Karovic perhaps, were any members of any
4 nationalist party.
5 Q. My question, though, is did you know whether
6 they were Serbs or Muslims?
7 A. I knew they were Muslims.
8 Q. All of them?
9 A. I apologise. I didn't hear the question.
10 Q. I'm sorry. All of those people that you
11 referred to, those doctors by name, were they all
12 Muslim doctors?
13 A. All of them were Muslims.
14 Q. And could you tell in what capacity were they
15 there? Were they sort of there, being sent there
16 against their will, like you were, or were they there
17 for other purposes, or could you tell?
18 A. When they brought us to Livade, the children
19 -- I'm sorry, Dr. Karovic, Dr. Sadinlija and
20 Dr. Selimovic, and three of those drivers from the
21 health centre were already there. They had been taken
22 from the outpatients' department to the hangars at
24 Q. Were they imprisoned or were they just
25 doctors carrying out their profession as doctors to
1 care for people imprisoned at the KP Dom?
2 A. No, they weren't doing their profession.
3 They were being held there as prisoners, just like I
5 Q. I see. While there, did you see any people
6 -- by there, I am talking about KP Dom. Did you see
7 any injured people, and under what circumstances?
8 A. I saw several people who were injured and
9 brought to the KP Dom as injured people. While I
10 was there, I don't remember anybody having been beaten
11 there. I also remember two people who were very badly
12 injured. One of them was a Croat, his name was Kuno
13 Marinovic, and apart from his other injuries, his jaw
14 had been broken, and another man who was a tradesman,
15 his name was Munib Beco. And he was beaten up badly.
16 His back was all black and blue, so was his leg and so
17 on. I saw them once and didn't see them again.
18 Q. Were you asked to treat any of these people?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, how long did you stay at KP Dom?
21 A. Altogether, I myself and my two children were
22 there for ten days, and my husband was there for two
23 days longer. We left on the 24th of April and my
24 husband left on the 26th of April.
25 Q. And while you were still imprisoned in KP
1 Dom, did you hear about what had happened to your
2 apartment, that is the apartment that you described
3 where you lived with your neighbours when you were
4 apprehended and detained?
5 A. I heard from the people who came that my
6 apartment was burnt the same day we were taken off to
7 the camp. This was on the 14th of April at about
8 2.00 p.m.
9 Q. And when you left on the 24th of April, did
10 you have an opportunity to go back to the area to see
11 whether, in fact, that was so?
12 A. You mean where my apartment was located?
13 Q. That is correct. I'm sorry if I wasn't
15 A. I didn't go there for several days. I went
16 to my colleague Sadinlija's apartment, and I stayed
17 there until I left Foca.
18 Q. You went to a colleague's apartment because
19 your own apartment had been burnt; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it was completely destroyed. When I
21 went later on, I went with a paramedic and somebody
22 from the police station. There were just ashes.
23 Nothing was left in my apartment, just ashes.
24 Q. After you and your family's release from KP
25 Dom, did you remain in Foca for a period of time?
1 A. Yes, for two months.
2 Q. During those two months, did you go back to
3 work in a capacity as a doctor at any point?
4 A. As soon as I left the camp on the 25th, I
5 went back to the hospital and I worked there. But it
6 wasn't the kind of work that I did previously. There
7 weren't many patients there. And people didn't come.
8 For example, there were two of my colleagues there of
9 Serb ethnicity, and the situation turned to their
10 advantage rather than to mine. I had a great deal of
11 work before the war, but as relations were tense,
12 people might have trusted them more than they trusted
13 me. But I have always been a doctor and I'll always
14 remain a doctor and could be nothing else.
15 So I worked until the 20th of May. I went to
16 work, I did my work, but I received no salary.
17 When I was supposed to receive my salary, we
18 had already left the hospital because they said we
19 could no longer come to work. And I went to one of my
20 colleagues who lived near me. He was a Serb and he was
21 a good friend of mine. And I asked him what was going
22 to happen, "Where are our salaries?" And he said the
23 director had told him that their salaries had come from
24 Trebinje and we would get ours from Sarajevo. It was a
25 little strange, because we couldn't get our salaries
1 from Sarajevo.
2 Q. You say you worked until the 20th of May, and
3 then you said, I think later on, words to the effect,
4 and I am paraphrasing, that you could no longer come to
5 work. Were you told you were no longer welcome to come
6 to work?
7 A. No. No. They told us, I don't know who gave
8 the orders of the officials, that the Muslim doctors
9 could no longer work in the hospital. And all of us
10 working there, and there were four male doctors, I was
11 alone, I was the only woman doctor, that we couldn't
12 work; either the doctors or the nurses, paramedics.
13 They received orders from some leadership organs, I
14 don't know from whom, but that's what we were told.
15 Q. So you were precluded from working any longer
16 after the 20th of May; is that correct?
17 A. We were not allowed to work.
18 Q. Yes. Now, while you were in Foca for the two
19 months or so after you were released on the 24th of
20 April, what can you tell us about what you saw about
21 the town of Foca itself? Could you tell us what had
22 happened to Muslim homes?
23 A. The Muslim homes, I know from the Donje Polje
24 area, because that's -- where I lived you could see
25 that area. And they were burnt. Mostly, most of the
1 houses, I think two-thirds of the houses were burnt in
2 that settlement, which was called Donje Polje; the
3 Donje Polje settlement.
4 Q. Was that a Muslim settlement, largely?
5 A. Largely Muslim, although there were some
6 Serbian households as well, but there were -- there was
7 a greater ratio of Muslim houses.
8 Q. How about the mosques in town?
9 A. All the mosques in town were destroyed and
11 Q. Were you familiar with the Aladza mosque?
12 A. Of course. Aladza was one of the oldest
13 mosques. I think it was built around 1555. It was
14 under UNESCO protection. I was in Foca when the
15 minaret was knocked down and, two days later I left
16 Foca. And that's when the rest of it was destroyed.
17 It was destroyed last.
18 Q. Now, while you were there, prior to your
19 leaving, what can you tell us about what was happening
20 to the Muslim population of Foca? Did they stay in
21 town or were they -- tell us about that.
22 A. The part of the population who stayed in town
23 couldn't leave until we had received permission and
24 permits to leave town. But the majority of the Muslim
25 male population was taken off to the camps.
1 Q. In what kind of numbers?
2 A. I can't say exactly. I say most of them, but
3 I don't know. I don't know how many of them stayed in
4 town. I don't know how many were taken away. But I
5 know many families whose sons and husbands were taken
6 off to camp.
7 Q. All right. Now, you told us there were
8 restrictions on leaving, unless you had permits and
9 papers; is that correct? And I take it, eventually,
10 you and your family got permits, did you?
11 A. That's correct. I personally went to the
12 Municipal Assembly, to the Crisis Staff there, and
13 asked them, when the situation had deteriorated and we
14 were restricted, our movements were restricted, men
15 were restricted, although women were allowed to go out
16 to buy daily foodstuffs, we were not allowed to gather,
17 to make gatherings. People were not buried in
18 cemeteries, but were buried in plots around their
19 house. Telephones were cut off. There were no death
20 certificates published. And life was unbearable at
21 that time. And I personally went to the Crisis Staff,
22 I went myself and asked -- first of all, I had to go
23 because of my documents, because all our documents, our
24 family documents had been burnt, together with the
25 apartment. So we had no IDs or passports or any
1 documents at all. So I had to look for a photographer
2 to take photographs of us, for us to be issued the new
4 And then I asked them to either let us leave
5 or to let us live like people, like human beings, or to
6 kill us, because living that way was very difficult.
7 So if you have to live in constant fear of your life,
8 then it's very difficult to get on with the business of
9 living. We were left without a job, we were not -- our
10 movements were restricted, we were not allowed to see
11 other people and make small gatherings, and it is very
12 difficult to live under those conditions.
13 Q. Do you know whether Muslim people were
14 entitled to medical treatment or medicines during the
15 period before you left?
16 A. It all depended on the individual working in
17 the outpatients' department. I know of several cases,
18 and I am going to quote some names. For example, Zuko
19 Beco, who was a very honest elderly citizen and ill, he
20 was allowed to leave from the KP Dom. And in the
21 outpatients' department the doctor on duty would not
22 prescribe any antibiotics for his lung condition
23 because he had pneumonia. And I brought him some
25 I know others who would go to the
1 outpatients' department and they weren't given any
2 medicines. But my colleagues from the hospital, who
3 worked together with us for many years, would send me
4 personally medicines. For example, they sent me
5 medicaments for my husband. And I think that was quite
7 MR. RYNEVELD: If I could just stop
8 there. Your Honours, I note the time. I can tell you,
9 I think I have another 20 minutes or so with this
10 witness, and I expect that perhaps we'll have to close
11 the screens to allow her to leave. If this is an
12 appropriate time for the break, I'm about to move into
13 a new area.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we shall break off and
15 resume our proceedings at 11.30 hours.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you stay in the
17 courtroom until after the Court leaves. Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can proceed.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Witness 33, we had left, just before the
23 break, to come to a new point that I'd like to bring
24 your attention to. I'd like you to think now about a
25 time of mid-June or thereabouts of 1992. Did something
1 happen, or did you hear reports of something that
2 happened in a place called Cohodor Mahala?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What was that?
5 A. I heard that in mid-June, I do not know the
6 exact date, a massacre happened there. I think about
7 27 -- about 27 persons were massacred, predominantly
8 women and children. I don't know whether there were
9 any men there at all. Allegedly, they were all in one
10 house because it was easier for them to be together.
11 And then a group came, a group of those who killed in
12 different ways. That's what I heard. I don't know
13 how, who, but I heard that there were about 27 women
14 and children that were killed there. Perhaps there
15 were some men too. I don't know.
16 Q. This place that I have named, Cohodor Mahala,
17 is that a part of Foca, is it near Foca, or exactly
18 what is that?
19 A. That's a part of Foca, by the River
20 Cehotina. It's on the other side of the Cehotina
21 River. It is a mixed settlement, mostly private
22 houses, but there were quite a few Serb and Muslim
23 houses there. The composition was mixed.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: With the assistance of the
25 usher, perhaps Exhibit 12/1, or my copy of it, may be
1 shown. Thank you.
2 Q. If you can just use the pointer and show to
3 us approximately where in Foca this area, Cohodor
4 Mahala, or however you pronounce that, is.
5 A. The exact pronunciation is Cohodor Mahala.
6 Q. Cohodor Mahala. Thank you.
7 A. It is approximately opposite Livade, rather,
8 on the other side of the Cehotina River, on my
9 left-hand side. Livade is on the right-hand side and
10 Cohodor Mahala is on the left-hand side. As I'm
11 looking at it now, it's on my left-hand side.
12 Q. All right. For the purposes of the record,
13 you're shown Livade as number 10, and you've pointed to
14 an area --
15 A. Yes. I showed Livade, and Cohodor Mahala is
16 opposite Livade.
17 Q. The area you're pointing to with the pointer
18 is about an inch or so to the right of the number 11 on
19 the bottom right-hand corner of the map; is that
20 correct? Perhaps that's 15 centimetres or so. I use
22 A. Yes, that's it. Yes, that's Cohodor Mahala.
23 It says here on the map, it's been marked on this map.
24 Green letters. It says, "Cohodor Mahala."
25 Q. Thank you. Now --
1 A. There's no number there, but the name is
2 written there.
3 Q. I understand that. The purpose of the
4 question is basically to ask you now what effect did
5 the rumour of this massacre have upon you and your
6 family in respect of concerns for your safety?
7 A. There was general fear among Muslim families,
8 that's quite natural. If that kind of a massacre
9 occurs in the town where you lived, these people
10 probably knew lots of these persons who were killed.
11 Then you could expect that to happen to your own
12 family; I could expect that to happen to my own family
13 or whoever. My family and I were greatly afraid.
14 Q. You've told us about you hearing about these
15 27 people being killed, or thereabouts. Did you also
16 know whether or not these people were Serbs or whether
17 they were Muslims?
18 A. All of them were Muslims, predominantly women
19 and children, as far as I heard.
20 Q. Were there any other warnings or concerns
21 that were communicated to you and/or your family which
22 prompted you to want to leave Foca? Don't name any
23 names of the people who may have told you these
25 A. No, I don't want to do that. I personally
1 was told by the son of a Serb friend of mine, a lady
2 friend of mine, that one evening they would come to
3 kill my husband. When I asked why, the answer was -- I
4 mean, I said, "Why? Why? He's not to be blamed for
5 anything," and the answer was, "Well, for the purpose
6 of ethnic cleansing, because he's a Muslim."
7 Q. I understand that your husband was released
8 on the 26th of April of 1992. While he was on release,
9 was he required to report in anywhere or to stay in
10 touch with authorities?
11 A. He had to report twice a day to the police
12 office in charge, at a given hour; in the morning and
13 in the afternoon. I don't know who was there or who
14 these persons were, but he was humiliated in different
15 ways, even physically mistreated.
16 Q. I understand that. You've already told us
17 about your visits to the authorities in order to
18 attempt to get release permits or permission to leave;
19 is that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Were you finally permitted to leave Foca?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the course of that, did you actually
24 obtain some certificates or documents which indicated
25 that you and your family were permitted to leave?
1 A. We got certificates from the police station
2 in charge that we could leave Foca. Every member of my
3 family got an individual certificate, and we also had
4 to sign documents saying that we left all our property
5 to the Serb republic.
6 Q. Were you not allowed to take any of your
7 possessions with you?
8 A. We didn't have anything. We left wearing
9 other people's clothes, with borrowed money, because
10 our apartment was burned. When we went to the camp. I
11 already mentioned that. We didn't have a thing.
12 Q. Nevertheless, you had to sign a certificate
13 or some document indicating that you were leaving, and
14 leaving all your possessions, whatever those may be,
15 behind, and leaving them to the Serb republic? Do I
16 understand that correctly?
17 A. Yes. The house of my parents is in Foca. It
18 belongs to my sister and myself. It was not burned.
19 It is in a part of Donje Polje. I have a house that is
20 under construction, that we started building, I don't
21 know exactly which year that is, in the Aladza
22 settlement. It was not completed, only the roof was
23 placed on it, but as far as I know, the house is still
24 there. We also have our own garage that we used while
25 we lived there.
1 Q. And you had to sign over entitlement to those
2 things as well? Is that what you are telling us?
3 A. We signed a piece of paper, and what that
4 piece of paper said, to tell you the truth, I wasn't
5 really interested in that. I was interested in leaving
6 as soon as possible and reaching freedom.
7 Q. And without naming where you went -- please
8 do not say so -- do I understand that you and your
9 family actually left Foca and went to a foreign
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. I am going to now, with the assistance of the
13 usher, very briefly show you some documents, which I am
14 only asking you to identify. And if you can identify
15 them, we'll mark them as exhibits in these
17 First of all, there are two copies of this
18 document that I am going to hand out, one for you to
19 look at, and one for the Registry, please. Please do
20 not put this on the ELMO, because it contains personal
21 and private information that we want to maintain
23 If you would look to the second page, just
24 turn over the page. Is this a document which indicates
25 that -- the page you are looking at does not have a
1 number, but is this a document referring to your
2 husband? Do not name him, please.
3 A. That's correct. That's it.
4 Q. All right. And this is the document that
5 says he was under obligation to report daily to the
6 police station of the Serbian municipality of Foca?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And this is the document which shows that he
9 was released from KP Dom, where he was detained from
10 the 16th to the 26th of April 1992; is that correct?
11 A. Mistake. From the 14th until the 26th.
12 Because we were all taken together on the 14th of
13 April. We were released on the 24th, and he was
14 released on the 26th of April.
15 Q. I understand that your recollection differs
16 with what's written on the document. But does the
17 document bear the date the 16th?
18 A. Yes, underneath -- sorry. Sorry. Underneath
19 there's a correction. It says the 14th of April.
20 There is not a stamp there, but that is correct. Those
21 are the correct dates, from the 14th of April until the
22 26th of April.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 Might that be marked as Exhibit 39 in these
25 proceedings, please.
1 And while you are looking at the document
2 still, Witness, there are signatures on that document
3 and a seal. Can you tell under whose authority this
4 certificate was given? Was it on behalf of the crisis
5 management team of the Serbian municipality of Foca?
6 A. This was issued by the police station of
8 Q. And on the right-hand side there is another
9 signature. Is that the crisis management team of the
10 Serbian municipality of Foca?
11 A. I'm sorry. This pertains to the release from
12 prison. One is the crisis staff of the Serbian
13 municipality of Foca and the other one is the
14 authorised person of the Serb police station of Foca.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry.
16 JUDGE HUNT: This has already been conceded
17 as authentic, has it not?
18 MR. RYNEVELD: It has.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Then why do we need to do it
20 through the witness as well?
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Out of an abundance of
22 caution, but Your Honour is absolutely correct. I
23 wanted to just verify that this is the document --
24 JUDGE HUNT: Let's just get on with it.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you. I will do
2 Q. For the benefit of the Court, I am next going
3 to ask the witness to look at Exhibit 40.
4 Two copies of that, Mr. Usher.
5 Again, looking at the second of the page of
6 this document, which is in Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian,
7 does this refer to your husband -- please don't say his
8 name -- and is this document giving permission to leave
9 Foca on the 27th of June 1992?
10 A. Yes. Yes. That is the document that was
11 given to my husband in order to leave Foca.
12 Q. Thank you very much. Exhibit 40, please.
13 Turning next to 41. Is that a similar permit
14 referring to your -- referring to you? Is that your
15 permit, Witness 33?
16 A. Yes. Yes. That is the permit issued in my
17 name, the same date, the same signature. Yes.
18 Q. And again, this allows you to leave the
19 following day that you received this; allows you to
20 leave on the 27th of June?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. That was 41, for the record.
23 Turning next to 42. Mr. Usher, two copies,
25 Is this the exit permit for your son?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Again, same date, same people. Thank you
3 very much.
4 A. The same date, the same persons, taken the
5 same day.
6 Q. Thank you. That's 42. And the final
7 document, 43. Is this document, is that basically an
8 exit permit for your daughter to leave?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Might that be marked as Exhibit 43, please.
11 Prior to the war, Witness 33, did you know
12 Zoran Vukovic?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. Okay. Do you know who Miroslav Stanic is?
15 A. I knew him personally. He was the president
16 of the local SDS. That's a nationalist party.
17 Q. Is that the Serbian nationalist party or --
18 A. Serbian. If we were to translate this, SDS,
19 it is the Serb Democratic Party. That is the
20 translation, the Serb Democratic Party.
21 Q. And did you say that he was the president of
22 that party? Did you know?
23 A. He was the president of that party.
24 Q. Do you know if he was president of the War
25 Presidency in Foca as well?
1 A. As far as I know, he was president of the War
2 Presidency also.
3 Q. And do you know what --
4 A. In Foca.
5 Q. Do you know what position, if any, he had
6 with the Crisis Committee in Foca?
7 A. No. No. I don't know. I couldn't say.
8 Q. These functions that we are talking about,
9 the presidency, were those civilian functions?
10 A. The president of the SDS, of the Serb
11 Democratic Party, that is a civilian function, whereas
12 the president of the War Presidency, if that's what you
13 asked me, is also a civilian function, I think. I
14 don't know. Prodanovic, who is an expert in these
15 matters, will be able to explain it better than me.
16 Q. Do you know who Cosovic was?
17 A. Who?
18 Q. Branislav Cosovic?
19 A. Cosa. I heard of him, but I don't know him.
20 Q. You don't know him, but did you know what his
21 function was, or did you hear what his function was?
22 A. I heard that he was head of the military
23 police. But that's what I heard, I'm not sure of
25 Q. All right. You mentioned in your evidence
1 some other names. Again, please pardon my
2 pronunciation, but I think you mentioned in your
3 evidence a Mr. Ostojic.
4 A. I did.
5 Q. Who was he?
6 A. He was the Minister of Information in the
7 Government or Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he
8 was a member of the Republican SDS. He is from Foca,
9 and he spent a lot of time in Foca during these
11 Q. I see. And I think you mentioned a
12 Mr. Cancar, is it?
13 A. He's from Foca, a lawyer. I know him
14 personally as well. He held an important post in the
15 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he was also in the
16 SDS. I don't know what his function in the SDS was,
18 Q. I believe you also mentioned a
19 Mr. Maksimovic.
20 A. I did. I know him personally. We used to be
21 friends. He was a professor at the Faculty of
22 Philosophy at the University of Sarajevo. He was
23 president of the Club of MPs, in the Assembly of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the MPs of the SDS, and he was a
25 professor at the Faculty of Philosophy. He came to
1 Foca often during these events, and also before these
2 events, these events that occurred in Foca.
3 Q. All right. Now, before you left Foca, you
4 told us that you had heard a number of things that had
5 occurred. Did you hear anything about rape camps or
6 brothels in the Foca area?
7 A. I heard about individual rapes at persons'
8 homes. I heard about Partizan, but I didn't know
9 anything about it; I didn't know who was there or who
10 remained there. People talked about it, but I found
11 out more later from the newspapers and from other mass
12 media, when I left Foca, more than while I lived there
14 Q. I see. Again, don't tell us where you went,
15 but you were permitted to leave after the 26th of
16 June. Did you leave immediately or did you stay for a
17 little while longer?
18 A. I left immediately.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Excuse me. This was 1992.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: 1992, that's correct, yes.
22 Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Very briefly, I just have a couple of
24 follow-up questions now, I've done the bulk of my
25 examination-in-chief. But I wanted to show the
1 witness, with the aid of the audiovisual people, about
2 a one-minute clip of the BBC report, and I want the
3 witness to watch that -- it's now Exhibit 24, I
4 believe, the video clip to which I'm referring -- and
5 see if she can give us assistance about which houses --
6 or what the area is that is shown.
7 Are you able to do that for us,
8 Mr. Audiovisual? I think he's on the phone.
9 [Videotape played]
10 A. This is Prijeka Carsija, what you're showing
11 me now.
12 MR. RYNEVELD:
13 Q. Actually, I'm going to let you watch this,
14 and then we'll back it up and I'll ask you to comment
15 on it on the second time through.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you rewind that and play
17 that again for us, and we'll let the witness speak as
18 she recognises certain things. But before she does,
19 I'm going to ask a couple of preliminary questions.
20 Q. First of all, do you recognise any of the
21 areas in the footage you've just seen on the monitor?
22 A. It's a bit difficult to recognise buildings
23 that are on fire; perhaps I'm also upset. But I think
24 that near the place where I was, close to the clinic,
25 there was an elementary school as well, and this is an
1 area that I'm very familiar with. But now whether it
2 is that area or not, well ...
3 Q. All right.
4 A. It's been a lot of years, many years.
5 Q. Yes. Can you watch the video again and
6 comment on if you recognise any building or if you're
7 able to tell us anything about it.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you play it again,
9 please, sir.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. RYNEVELD:
12 Q. First of all, do you recognise that area? If
13 not, that's --
14 A. I know it, but it's hard for me to say
15 precisely. I know this. This is Prijeka Carsija, I
16 know that very well. But where the houses are very
17 close to one another, it's a bit more difficult for
19 Q. That's fine. Thank you very much.
20 Now, in your evidence, when you were talking
21 about the 14th of April, when you and your family were
22 taken away from your apartments to Livade, I'm not sure
23 whether I asked you who it was that took you away.
24 What kind of people were taking you away? Were they
25 soldiers or policemen, or could you tell?
1 A. I don't know who took us away. These persons
2 were wearing military uniforms, olive-grey, or
3 camouflage uniforms, but they all had these mask caps.
4 Many of them addressed me as "Doctor," so they knew me,
5 but I don't know who that was. They were local people,
6 judging by their dialect, because they spoke exactly
7 the same way I do.
8 Q. But were they armed? Did they have weapons
9 with them?
10 A. They had some kind of light rifles, I don't
11 know anything about these things, but it wasn't any
12 kind of heavy armaments. I am not very good at this.
13 I don't know what kind of rifles these were, but they
14 didn't use them. They did have weapons, short rifles,
15 but I don't know what they are called.
16 Q. I'm not asking for specifics. Did you think
17 they were soldiers, for example?
18 A. I don't think they were soldiers. I think
19 they belonged to paramilitary formations. There's one
20 thing I can say: I only had direct contact with
21 soldiers when I was at the KP Dom, and they were
22 soldiers from the Uzice Corps.
23 Q. Because I don't know what that is, perhaps
24 you could let us know what the Uzice Corps is.
25 A. The Uzice Corps is a military unit that
1 belonged to a town called Uzice, and that is why it was
2 named the Uzice Corps.
3 Q. Okay. Was that town far away?
4 A. It belongs to Serbia; it's near the border
5 with Bosnia.
6 Q. And these people were at the KP Dom in Foca.
7 A. They came to the KP Dom at Foca to see who
8 the detainees were. I don't know what kind of actions
9 they participated in in town. But one day, when they
10 came to register us, and when I said that I was a
11 doctor, one of them stopped and said, "Oh, where did
12 you study?" and then I said that I studied in Belgrade,
13 and then he said, "You probably know a lot of our
14 doctors from Uzice." I did know quite a few of these
15 colleagues, and then I mentioned some of them, and he
16 said, "Yes, yes," like, you're right. "My wife is a
17 nurse." So that was it, that was the end of that
18 conversation. But they themselves said that they were
19 from Uzice and that they belonged to that corps.
20 Q. Okay. Just a couple of other questions to
21 clarify some of the answers you gave in earlier
23 You told us about going to Livade and you
24 told us about the two rooms you went into. I don't
25 know if I asked you how many people you estimate were
1 being detained in Livade altogether while you were
2 there. I think you said 100 to 120, but was that the
3 people from your apartment block, or was that
4 altogether, that you could see?
5 A. That is the total number of people I saw
7 Q. Okay. And when you got to KP Dom, are you
8 able to give us any idea how many people were there in
10 A. There were many more people there. The KP
11 Dom is an enormous building and people were distributed
12 in rooms. I just knew the ones that were in the room I
13 was placed in, and perhaps if we would meet at lunch or
14 breakfast, then I would recognise some of the people.
15 But how many were there, I couldn't say. I know that
16 the number increased daily.
17 Q. When you were taken to Livade, did you see
18 anyone being taken away for beatings while you were
20 A. Organised beating, taken off to beatings,
21 that did not exist. But there was a guard who was
22 known for that. What he would do was go to a room,
23 bring out a person from the room. He had one of these
24 stockings over his head and he would beat the man up.
25 And then he would, when somebody came across him doing
1 this, he would return the people to the room. He did
2 this on his own initiative, while he was doing his
3 guard shift.
4 Q. I see. Now, we've also made reference to the
5 Aladza neighbourhood. Was that a Muslim neighbourhood
6 in general, or was it a mixed ethnic neighbourhood, or
7 was there a predominant Muslim population there?
8 A. Aladza had apartment blocks and settlements
9 with a mixed population. In the private houses in
10 Aladza, the population was predominantly Muslim, rather
11 than Serbian. Another settlement opposite Aladza, on
12 the opposite side by the stadium, there was -- its name
13 -- I can't remember its name exactly, but it was
14 predominantly Serb inhabited. I can't remember the
15 name of that settlement, but it was above the stadium.
16 Q. Is it your evidence that the Muslims largely
17 lived in the private houses and the Serbs were more in
18 apartment blocks? Did I understand you to say that, or
19 is that an overgeneralisation of what you just told us?
20 A. Well, let me put it this way. If somebody
21 was able to build his own private house, lived in it,
22 but most -- both Serbs and Muslims lived in apartment
23 buildings, although there were quite a number of those
24 who had their own private houses on both sides.
25 Q. In the video clip we saw, we saw mostly
1 private homes on fire. Would you agree with that?
2 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think that is a proper
3 question, Mr. Ryneveld.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine. I'll withdraw the
5 question. Thank you.
6 Q. Now, you are familiar with the Foca or the
7 Aladza Secondary School?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you pass by there, or did you stop there
10 along the way in any one of your trips?
11 A. During those occurrences or do you mean prior
12 to them?
13 Q. During the occurrences that you told us
14 about, from being apprehended, between the 14th of
15 April and, I suppose, until you got to KP Dom.
16 A. On the 14th of April, when they took us away
17 to Livade, we made a line, two-by-two, with guards
18 going on each side of us, carrying guns and in military
19 uniforms, and we passed by the secondary school centre
20 because it was on our route towards Livade. In front
21 of the secondary school centre there were quite a
22 number of soldiers wearing different uniforms. For
23 example, some of them would be wearing black uniforms
24 with black hats, other people wore red berets. Some of
25 them had white bands around their arms. All I know is
1 that at one point, and I was very scared by this, I
2 heard them say, "Take these balijas to one side. We'll
3 settle with them quickly and then they can flow down
4 the river."
5 I don't know what kind of army that was and
6 to which formations it belonged, but that's what
8 Q. What are balijas?
9 A. Balija is the derogatory term for Muslim.
10 Q. I see. One final question. When you talked
11 about KP Dom, I believe in your evidence you referred
12 to it as a camp. Why did you call it a camp? Was it
13 guarded by soldiers or how did you refer to it as a
15 A. There was a difference. I can't tell you in
16 precise terms, but the difference between a camp and
17 the KP Dom lay in the fact that two camp people were
18 taken who were -- taken from their apartments,
19 captured. Some were taken from their apartments and
20 brought there, not somebody serving a sentence. They
21 were taken forcibly. Whereas the KP Dom was a
22 penitentiary where people were placed after having
23 attended Court proceedings and trials and went there to
24 serve their sentences, once they had been convicted.
25 Q. So what was before a penitentiary is now
1 being used as a detention place, and you called it a
2 camp; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I just check with my
5 colleagues, but I think that was my last question, but
6 I may have overlooked something.
7 It seems as though I've covered the
8 territory. Thank you. Those are my questions.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Any cross-examination?
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
12 [Interpreter's Note: The witness uses the
13 familiar second-person singular to address
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
16 Q. Witness 33, you've said that you worked in
17 the hospital, which belonged to the Regional Medical
18 Centre. Can you tell us, please, how many
19 municipalities did this Regional Medical Centre cater
21 A. Foca, Gorazde, Cajnice, Visegrad, and Rudo,
22 and later on Kalinovik, which means six municipalities.
23 Q. In all these municipalities, that is to say,
24 in those towns, did all those towns have medical
25 centres which formed the Regional Medical Centre?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you tell us, please, who was the
3 director of the Regional Medical Centre?
4 A. The director of the Regional Medical Centre
5 was Dr. Lovoturs.
6 Q. Could you tell us, please, what ethnicity he
8 A. He was a Muslim.
9 Q. Could you tell us, who was the director of
10 the health centre?
11 A. You mean in Foca?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Avdo Sedinlija.
14 Q. What ethnicity was he?
15 A. He was a Muslim.
16 Q. Could you tell us, please, who the directors
17 were of the institutions in the towns of Visegrad,
18 Gorazde and so on, if you remember?
19 A. In Foca, the director of the hospital was
20 Dr. Sekul Stanic; in Cajnice it was Dusko Kornjaca.
21 Q. They are Serbs?
22 A. Yes, they are. In Kalinovik there was also a
23 Serb; I don't remember his name. In Gorazde it was a
24 Muslim; I don't remember his name. In Rudo it was a
25 Serb; I can't remember his name because a lot of years
1 have gone by.
2 Q. Very well. It's not important.
3 A. And there is one more place that I mentioned.
4 Q. Rogatica?
5 A. No, Rogatica did not belong to our region.
6 Q. What about Visegrad?
7 A. Visegrad did, but I don't know who the
8 director was there.
9 Q. In the composition of the Regional Medical
10 Centre there was also the Foca pharmacy?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you tell us who the director of the
13 pharmacy was?
14 A. You mean the municipal pharmacy?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Will you agree with me that the director of
18 the pharmacy was Amra Celik?
19 A. Perhaps. Probably, yes.
20 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that she was
21 a Muslim?
22 A. Yes, she was.
23 Q. Do you know how many employees worked in the
24 Foca hospital?
25 A. Five hundred and something. I don't know the
1 exact number. Do you want to ask me the ratio of the
2 Serbs and Muslims?
3 Q. Unfortunately, yes.
4 A. Well, I was never interested in that. I
5 never knew that, and I don't know it today either.
6 Q. But do you allow for the possibility that it
7 was perhaps 50/50, half/half --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, wait for the
9 witness. I know you are speaking the same language, so
10 it's very tempting.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,
12 Your Honours.
13 A. I don't know. I think there were perhaps
14 more Serbs working there than others, but I was never
15 interested in that, nor did I ever look at statistical
16 data in that regard.
17 Q. Could you tell us, please, who the heads of
18 the departments, hospital departments were?
19 A. Well, let us take them in order.
20 Q. I suppose that's an easier question for you.
21 A. Yes. Surgery, there was a Serb; gynaecology,
22 a Muslim; paediatrics, a Muslim; infective diseases
23 department, Muslim; transfusions, Serb; internal
24 disease department, a Serb; pulmonary department, a
25 Serb; neuropsychiatry, a Muslim; ear, nose, and mouth,
1 a Muslim. Perhaps I've left out a department. Let me
2 see. Rehabilitation department, that was a Serb too.
3 Q. Tell me, were you the head of a department?
4 A. I mentioned myself. I was the head of the
5 paediatrics department.
6 Q. Very well. Thank you. Since when did you
7 head the paediatrics department? When did you come to
8 head it?
9 A. From 1976, when I did my specialised course.
10 Q. 1976?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you tell us, please, the exact moment
13 -- exactly where you were when the conflict broke out?
14 A. I have already said that I was on the way to
15 work on the 8th, to take my family to the hospital,
16 Relja and myself. You know Relja very well, the
17 colleague that I mentioned. My family members didn't
18 want to. I stayed at home, but Relja took his wife and
19 child to the hospital.
20 Q. I mean when the shooting started, were you at
22 A. Yes, I was at home. I didn't go out
23 anywhere. Throughout the time that there was shooting,
24 from the 8th to the 14th, I never went out anywhere.
25 Q. I should like to ask the usher to show the
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
14 English and French transcripts
1 witness a map, which is Prosecution Exhibit 12/1, for
2 the witness to be able to look at the map and locate
3 her apartment building to show us where she lived.
4 A. I don't think the map has it. It's across
5 the road from the Hotel Zelengora, right opposite the
6 hotel across from Cehotina. I'm not sure that it's on
7 the map.
8 Q. But just to give us a rough idea of where
9 your house was.
10 A. Hotel Zelengora is number 5 on the map, and I
11 lived opposite the Zelengora Hotel, right opposite the
12 bridge. It was parallel, my building was parallel to
13 the bridge.
14 Q. Looking at that place, can you show us the
15 route to the hospital? Which route do you take on your
16 way to the hospital, and what settlement do you pass?
17 A. Well, I would cross this bridge and this
18 would take me to opposite Zelengora Hotel, which would
19 be to the right-hand side. I would go left, where
20 there was a bus which waited for us to take us to work,
21 and would take us back from work, in front of the
22 delicatessen shop. It would once again pass over the
23 bridge and go down towards my house, along the Drina
24 River, underneath the KP Dom.
25 Q. As far as I was able to note, you were
1 showing Cehotina, pointing to Cehotina.
2 A. That's wrong. Yes, that wasn't correct on my
3 part. Number 5 is the Zelengora Hotel. Opposite is my
4 apartment building. And I would go across the bridge
5 and cross over to the opposite side, and in front of
6 the delicatessen store, you know where the delicatessen
7 store was, that was where the bus waited for us to go
8 to the hospital. So I would go along the Drina Valley,
9 that road there, underneath the KP Dom, and I would go
10 to the hospital that way.
11 Q. Yes. I am quite -- I know all of that. But
12 for purposes of the other people in the courtroom, you
13 showed -- you pointed to the left-hand side of the
14 Drina River. That's probably a mistake on your part,
15 because to reach the hospital you would take the
16 right-hand side, the right bank of the River Drina.
17 A. Yes, you are quite right. I was pointing to
18 the wrong side. I don't think it's that important.
19 I'm just -- I'm describing the left bank and pointing
20 to the right bank. Well, yes, I'm a bit tired and so
22 Q. Well, we don't mind. It's just to put things
23 straight. That's all.
24 Which settlement did you pass to get to the
1 A. I passed through Donje Polje, the KP Dom, and
2 then I don't know what that other part down there was
3 called. I think it was Proleterskih Brigada Street.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you. You said that when
5 you were on the way to -- on your way to the hospital,
6 on that critical day, according to your statement, that
7 you passed by two barricades.
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Can you tell us where those checkpoints
11 A. One was at the Cafe Bor, Bor Cafe, and the
12 other one was by the Drina bridge.
13 Q. Could you describe the barricades for us?
14 What were they composed of?
15 A. Well, just two people there and a truck,
16 which was placed across the road, but nobody stopped
17 us, asked us anything. That's what I said in my
19 Q. Does that mean that that obstacle did not
20 allow vehicles to pass?
21 A. Yes, probably. Pedestrians were able to pass
22 by quite freely.
23 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether you know
24 who had erected those barricades?
25 A. No.
1 Q. In the statement you made here today, you
2 said that that part of the settlement was populated
3 mostly by the Muslim population?
4 A. Yes, that's right. Except for the apartment
5 buildings across the road, which were mixed, where
6 there was a mixed population.
7 Q. Will you agree with me that it was the
8 Muslims who set up those barricades?
9 A. Well, it's like this. I can't agree with you
10 or with myself. I don't know. I have absolutely no
11 idea who put up those barricades, nor did I know any of
12 the people at the barricades. I didn't know what was
13 happening at all or why this was -- why these obstacles
14 were placed there, because it was the very beginning of
15 everything. I went back by car, a vehicle from the
16 hospital, an ambulance, and I was able to pass by
17 freely. And there was no problem there until the
18 25th. When I left the camp I went to the hospital in
19 the same bus that I'd always taken to the hospital.
20 Q. Could you explain what those people at the
21 barricades did? Did they ask for your credentials, for
22 your IDs?
23 A. No, nobody asked us anything. We just passed
24 by quite naturally, just in the same way that we
25 reached the barricades. We just passed by them and
1 went along our way. I said, even now I don't know who
2 was there.
3 Q. What was their behaviour towards people they
4 didn't know? Do you know that?
5 A. I have absolutely no idea, because those of
6 us who went to the hospital, to do our work there, they
7 probably knew us all and nobody asked us anything. And
8 when we took the ambulance back, nobody stopped us at
9 all, we were able to pass by quite freely in the
10 ambulance. And I never went along that road again.
11 Q. Can you tell us, in your opinion, what the
12 purpose of these barricades were, if they had just been
13 placed at that particular point, but without anybody
14 being stopped or any IDs or particulars asked for?
15 A. Well, to be truthful, I really don't know.
16 Quite simply, I was surprised, but I didn't think about
17 it much. And later on, when the shooting started, then
18 I really didn't understand a thing, nor did I know
19 anything about anything. I didn't know the purpose of
20 the barricades or who had erected them or who manned
21 the barricade, and I have already said that I lived in
22 Foca -- I lived the kind of life in Foca that was
23 worthy of man's dignity, worthy of man.
24 But what happened overnight, it is very
25 difficult to describe. And particularly for us, it's
1 difficult for me and I'm sure it's difficult for you
2 too personally, who lived as honest, hard-working
3 citizens, it was very difficult to discuss a situation
4 of this kind; particularly those of us who lived there
5 together, and we'd come face to face and who would talk
6 to each other, say hello to each other. And I'd like
7 it to be like that again. I'm not one of those people
8 who don't want to return to my hometown, but it is very
9 hard for me. And none of the people that I helped a
10 great deal, and I'm sure you know this very well, and I
11 know that all the people there -- this whole group of
12 people know, why did nobody tell me? My children are
13 children too. I loved my children, just as everybody
14 else loved their children. My children were big, they
15 were grown-up --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness 33, can you just answer
17 the questions put to you? All right? We shall move
18 much faster that way.
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Yes, I do understand, Witness. On that
21 particular day, did something happen which would
22 indicate to you that a conflict could be expected?
23 A. As soon as I arrived, I saw that many of the
24 workers had brought their families with them. So I
25 didn't know what was going on in the hospital on the
1 8th, because on the 8th, I didn't actually work, I
2 wasn't on duty. I just went to the hospital and saw
3 people bringing their families. I returned with my
4 colleague Dimjan. My family did not want to go to the
5 hospital, so I stayed on in my apartment.
6 Q. Could you tell us how many children you had
7 at your paediatric department and whether there were
8 any abandoned children?
9 A. Yes, there were abandoned children. I think
10 there were four abandoned children at that particular
12 Q. And the total number?
13 A. Well, perhaps there were some 30 children in
14 my department.
15 Q. Could you tell me, please, whether, among
16 those abandoned children, there were any Muslim
18 A. Yes, there were. There was a small boy
19 called Dzudarija, whose mother had died at childbirth,
20 and on the 28th of June, he was to celebrate his third
21 birthday. Later on, I heard that he was exchanged in
22 Gorazde, in October or November.
23 There was another girl from Rogatica. She
24 was born with some deformities of the hand and foot,
25 and her family wouldn't accept her, wouldn't take her
1 in. What happened to this poor child, I don't know.
2 Q. You showed us the location of your apartment
3 building, where you lived. Could you tell us -- I know
4 this is difficult, but could you tell us how many
5 Muslim flats there were and how many others?
6 A. About the same number, Croats and Serbs; the
7 same number of apartments, more or less, roughly
9 Q. Let me remind you that you said in your
10 statement that you gave to the investigator from the
11 OTP that the Serbs knew full well which apartments they
12 were shooting at. Do you still stand by that
14 A. Well, some of them stayed on in their flats.
15 Their wives would cook lunch and their children would
16 be in bed, reading books. So this makes you a little
17 suspicious, and you're prone to think that they knew
18 which apartments they were targeting. So I had my
20 Q. Did you know Vukasin Skiljevica at all?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. What was he by ethnicity?
23 A. He was a Serb.
24 Q. Where does he live?
25 A. Below my own apartment.
1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you know the
2 Jeftan Radovic family?
3 A. They lived above me, on the floor above.
4 Q. Can you tell us whether you know what
5 happened to their apartments?
6 A. Their apartments were burnt, along with my
7 own, because the fire took over both storeys. But they
8 were not burnt to the ground.
9 Q. How do you know that? Were you present or
10 did you hear about it from somewhere?
11 A. Well, when I left the camp, I went into my
12 own flat, I saw it. And my director, Sekul Stanic,
13 gave Andjelko Perisic and another one wearing a
14 military uniform to escort me and to take me to my
15 apartment, and I entered my apartment. I know that the
16 Skiljevica, they tried to put out the fire, whereas in
17 the other one, the metal and glass were disintegrating,
18 and there was nothing in the apartment. I thought a
19 shell had fallen and perhaps that there were some
20 photographs left. What I miss most are my children's
21 photographs because they're irreplaceable; whereas
22 Jeftan's apartment and Vukasin's apartment were
23 partially damaged.
24 I didn't even say who set fire to my
25 apartment; I have no idea. It was set fire to, but who
1 did this, I don't know. I wasn't there; I can't say.
2 Q. Did somebody set fire to it intentionally, or
3 was it set fire to during the fighting?
4 A. I don't know. I can't say either way. I
5 just do not know.
6 Q. Do you know whether there was any fighting
7 going on around your building?
8 A. As far as I know, there was fighting around
9 my building, because there was a lot of shooting there,
10 we heard a lot of this.
11 Q. Can you assume, or do you know, where the two
12 sides that were fighting were?
13 A. I don't know. I don't know. I did not leave
14 the building. I cannot say a thing about that.
15 Q. In your statement, the one you gave to the
16 investigators earlier on, you said, "In the evening of
17 the 12th of April, 1992, we could see from our
18 apartment that the part of town called Prijeka Carsija
19 was on fire. This same part of town was burned by the
20 Chetniks in the Second World War."
21 Were you in your apartment or in the
22 basement, because you were going --
23 A. Up and down.
24 Q. Yes. Up and down. Did you go to the
25 apartment when Prijeka Carsija was on fire?
1 A. All of a sudden, we saw that the entire town
2 was illuminated. We were in the apartment because
3 there was no shooting now. So I don't know who set
4 fire to Prijeka Carsija. I did not leave the
5 building. I don't know who was shooting from where,
6 and with what, and who was involved in the fighting. I
7 am just saying one thing: I heard this, but I cannot
8 assert anything.
9 Q. Can you identify the houses that were on
10 fire? Whose houses were on fire?
11 A. When? When? At that time, at Prijeka
13 Q. Yes, when you said --
14 A. No way. No way. I don't think there were
15 many houses in the sense of homes in Prijeka Carsija.
16 There were shops there. I said that they were
17 primarily shops, and what was exactly on fire, that, I
18 don't know.
19 Q. Do you know Simo Aganovic?
20 A. You mean the one who had a pastry shop?
21 Q. I'm asking you this because of the shops in
22 Prijeka Carsija. If you don't know who owned these
23 shops that were burned down -- I mean, that's why I'm
24 putting this question to you.
25 A. Slavisa, I said that I saw Prijeka Carsija on
1 fire, that there were Serb and Muslim shops there. I
2 don't know whose shops were burned down. I don't even
3 know who owned all of those shops there. And after
4 that, I never passed through that Carsija, so I can't
5 make any comments about that because I don't know about
7 Q. Do you know where the Jugoplastika store was?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Was it in that row?
10 A. It was opposite Mujo Moco's shoe shop, a bit
11 further up perhaps.
12 Q. Did I understand you correctly? Did it burn
13 down also?
14 A. I have no idea. I have no idea. I did not
15 pass there.
16 Q. Would you agree with me that the following
17 shops burned down in Prijeka Carsija, those owned by,
18 and now I'm going to mention the names: Asima
19 Aganovic, who was a Muslim by ethnicity; the
20 Jugoplastika store, which was owned by the Sunaric
21 family, who lived there upstairs; then the state-owned
22 facility of Lovoturs, owned by Serbs, and then the
23 premises were rented out; the goldsmith shop owned by
24 Halim Brajlovic; the premises of the Serb Orthodox
25 church, where candles were sold and supplies for
1 burials; then also the warehouse of the 22nd of
2 December Company --
3 A. That was at the corner; right?
4 Q. Well, it was nearby. Then Mile Males'
6 A. I know where Mile Males' house was.
7 Q. What ethnicity is he?
8 A. He's a Serb.
9 Q. Then the shop owned by Colpa.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who is a Muslim by ethnicity; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The cafe of Mensud Hadziahmetovic, who is a
14 Muslim by ethnicity. So do you agree with the order in
15 which I listed these shops that were presented as being
16 burned down.
17 A. Yes. Yes, I agree with that. I did not say
18 whose shop had burned down, who it belonged to, I
19 didn't say that for any one of these facilities. I
20 couldn't see that. I just saw the flames.
21 Q. I'm sorry. I'm not asking this because of
22 you, I'm asking it for other purposes.
23 A. Okay. I understand your point.
24 Q. Do you know Velizar Grusic?
25 A. Yes, well.
1 Q. You know him well?
2 A. (redacted).
3 Q. (redacted)
4 A. (redacted)
5 Q. (redacted)
6 A. (redacted); the next
7 one was number 4. Perhaps it was Beogradska Street
8 number 6.
9 Q. So in your neighbourhood; is that right?
10 A. Yes, in my neighbourhood, near my building.
11 Q. Do you know that it burned down during those
12 days too?
13 A. Yes, I heard that it was torched.
14 Q. Did you know Milisav Kovacevic?
15 A. Yes, of course I did. I worked with him.
16 Q. What was he by ethnicity?
17 A. He was a Serb.
18 Q. Do you know --
19 A. That his house burned down? Yes, of course I
20 know that.
21 Q. Was his house separated from the other
23 A. No. No. It was up there in the
25 Q. I'm talking about the row of houses --
1 A. Oh, you're talking about the Muslim and Serb
2 houses. Yes. Yes, it was within that row of houses,
4 Q. Do you know that on the 12th of April, or
5 around that day, an entire row of Serb houses burned
6 down, starting with Drago Plemic's house, Milisav
7 Kovacevic's house, Momo Kovac's house, Ilija Radovic's,
8 Milorad Krnojelac's.
9 A. I know about Milorad because he told me
10 himself. But the others, well ...
11 Q. Dzoja Pavlovic, Vasilije Radovic, and the
12 family of Brako Obradovic, that were all in one row.
13 A. I don't know about that because I did not
14 have any contact with anyone later, so I could not
15 discuss this. Ultimately, I was not interested in this
16 at all. These houses were on fire. I wasn't
17 interested in whose these houses were and what this
18 was. It was human lives that I cared about, regardless
19 of who was torching these houses.
20 I'm underlining one thing: Perhaps there was
21 an anathema on me because I was not a member of the
22 SDA. What they did to one another, I don't know. I
23 just know what I saw and what I experienced during
24 these days. I cannot say anything about the things
25 that I don't know about. There's nothing that I can
1 claim for sure. I can only tell you about what I
2 experienced, what I saw, what I heard; whereas these
3 houses that you mentioned, well, listen to me, I was
4 supposed to go from one person's house to another and
5 to have coffee, and that's how I could have heard it.
6 And you know that we were not allowed to move around.
7 Yes, I did go out to do my shopping, and perhaps I saw
8 your mother in the street. But to go to someone's home
9 and to talk about this, no, I don't know about that. I
10 know about Milorad's house because he told me about it
11 personally. I wish I knew.
12 Q. I fully understand what you are saying, and I
13 know what you are trying to say, but the Honourable
14 Judges and all who are present here have to hear about
15 these things.
16 A. Well, they can't hear about it from me. I
17 did not mention any Muslim houses that burned down. I
18 just mentioned my apartment that burned down, because I
19 don't know which Muslim houses burned down. I know
20 that in Donje Polje houses were torched, but whose
21 houses? Which houses? For example, most of the houses
22 in Donje Polje were Muslim, in the neighbourhood that
23 is up there, further up. I know that there was Kovac
24 there and then this one person who worked in the
25 hospital, but I cannot make a differentiation in the
1 sense of whose house burnt down and whose house burnt
2 down how. Because, after all, this does not belong to
3 my domain. I cannot claim for sure things I don't know
5 I did not mention this or that burnt house.
6 I just mentioned my own burnt apartment. I mentioned
7 houses that were on fire. I cannot claim things I do
8 not know for sure. On either side, for that matter.
9 Q. Very well. We understand each other. You
10 said today that Serbs moved their families out after
11 the division?
12 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, I know that. All
13 my colleagues took their families away, either to
14 Herzegovina. For example, Ratko took his people to
15 Gacko, and then these other took their family to
16 Pluzine, then others to Montenegro, to Podgorica, some
17 to Serbia. That's the truth. That is the truth. Had
18 I not known this for sure, I would not have made such a
20 Q. You said that in Cohodor Mahala a massacre
21 had occurred. I heard about that.
22 A. Oh, you heard about that.
23 Q. Can you remember who you heard this from?
24 A. Well, to tell you the truth, even if I could,
25 I would not say, because, don't forget one thing, in
1 Foca I had friends amongst the Serbs also.
2 Q. Yes, I know that. Of course.
3 A. So I don't want to say. There were quite a
4 few of those who wanted to help me, but who could not
5 help me.
6 Q. That's not why I asked. I asked because you
7 said that 27 civilians were killed.
8 A. That's what I heard, 27. I don't know.
9 Because if I said that I heard about it, I'm not
10 claiming that. I wasn't there. I didn't see it. I
11 cannot mention that in that way. I can only say what I
12 experienced, and what I saw. But I cannot claim for
13 sure what I did not see.
14 Q. Yes, that's the way I understood you.
15 A. For example, did you listen to my statement
16 carefully? I did not say that somebody mistreated me
17 or the members of my family. I was afraid because
18 there were threats addressed against my husband,
19 especially when what happened in Croatia happened. He
20 is from that area. I was afraid that they would come
21 there and kill him. These are very hard things. I had
22 two grown-up children with me, a son and a daughter. I
23 was afraid that something would happen to my children.
24 And I said that as well. That is what I resent the
25 most, as far as my colleagues are concerned, why
1 then -- why didn't they tell me, "Well, look,
2 something is going to happen over here. Don't let your
3 children come here." Because everybody loves their
4 children. So I cannot claim for sure that which I
5 don't know.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, may we stick to
7 the case, please.
8 And Witness 33, you are here to answer
9 questions from the counsel and you are answering
10 questions to the Court. I know that when you are
11 speaking the same language you forget that you are
12 answering questions for the Court. This is not a
13 conversation between you and him.
14 A. I apologise.
15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now that we come to the word "camp." You
17 said that you were held in the camp and you tried to
18 explain what you meant by camp.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did I understand you correctly to say that
21 when you were in the camp, as you call it, that you had
22 somewhere to lie down; that you could go to the toilet;
23 that you had some covering to cover yourself with?
24 A. You mean the KP Dom?
25 Q. Yes. Did you have any food in the KP Dom?
1 A. Yes, I had some food. It wasn't terribly
2 good, but we were given food, yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you have a house in Foca in
4 addition to your apartment?
5 A. Yes, I had a family home belonging to my
7 Q. Was that house burnt?
8 A. No, it was not
9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
10 Honours, I have no further questions of this witness.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Kolesar.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:
13 Q. In the course of my questioning, I will focus
14 on a different direction.
15 In the statement that you gave to the
16 investigators of the Tribunal, you stated that you
17 believed that in 19 -- sometime in 1990 a large meeting
18 was organised, rally, at which the local SDS party was
19 founded; that is to say, the party in Foca. I am
20 interested in the following. Could you tell me,
21 please, when and whether the SDA party was founded, the
22 Party of Socialist Democratic Action, which was the
23 party of the Muslims?
24 A. I said, to begin with, that I belonged to no
25 nationalist party. I was not a member of the SDA party
1 either. But I think that these meetings were held in
2 the same week, one at the beginning of the week, the
3 other at the end of the week, but I did not attend
4 either gathering.
5 Q. Do you remember which the first gathering
7 A. The first gathering was the SDA gathering.
8 Q. How was this party propagated? Do you
9 remember? You say you were not a member of either
10 party, so I don't suppose you were at this rally, but
11 you probably had occasion to see either on television
12 or -- and from your apartment, as far as I recall, you
13 could see this gathering?
14 A. You mean from my apartment? No, you couldn't
15 see the rally, and I wasn't interested in it either.
16 Q. Do you perhaps know how many, at this
17 founding meeting, how many people were present? How
18 many delegates? How many people? Do you know?
19 A. No, I don't know for either case.
20 Q. Do you allow for the possibility, and the
21 leaders of the SDA said that in the SDA promotion
22 meeting, there were between 100.000 and 150.000?
23 A. If I said that I did not belong to any
24 nationalist party, and if I say that the nationalist
25 parties brought about this state of affairs, and the
1 situation that came to pass, then I also say that I was
2 not interested at all in how many people were present
3 on one side or the other side.
4 Let me state again, I was perhaps -- I don't
5 think the parties even liked me, because I didn't wish
6 to join either.
7 Q. You know that you are speaking under oath,
8 and I know that the Court is not, perhaps, interested
9 in whether you were interested yourself in one or other
10 party. But it is your duty to tell the Trial Chamber
11 here what you know about the relevant facts that I am
12 asking you about.
13 A. Well, I don't know how many people were
14 present. I can't say.
15 Q. On television you saw how this party was
16 promoted, the promotion rally that took place?
17 A. Well, it is almost eight years since that
18 event took place. So many things have happened in the
19 meantime that all those images have faded for me.
20 Q. I should now like to ask our audiovisual
21 department to show us tape 1, videotape 1, and to
22 provide copies for the Trial Chamber and the
23 Prosecution and Registry. It was a SDA meeting, rally,
24 which took place, and we did send in a copy of the
25 document to the OTP.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly
2 request a copy for the booths.
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] We should like
4 to propose that this be Exhibit D/1.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Do the interpreters have
6 copies, Mr. Kolesar? Mr. Kolesar, do the interpreters
7 have copies of this? The interpreters in the booths.
8 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Just for clarification, I
10 don't know what the purpose is of putting this document
11 to this witness. If it's to show that such a
12 Democratic Action Party took place, then I don't know
13 whether this is the proper witness to put this video
14 in, because this witness said she wasn't there, she
15 didn't see it, she didn't know about it. I'm not
16 trying to prevent this document from going in. I just
17 wonder whether this is an appropriate witness to do it
19 JUDGE HUNT: Hasn't she agreed that she saw
20 it on television?
21 MR. RYNEVELD: If that's what we are going to
22 be seeing --
23 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I've assumed,
24 otherwise it would be totally irrelevant to this
1 MR. RYNEVELD: That's my point. I must have
2 missed the witness's statement that she saw it on
3 television. I thought she said she didn't know about
5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, she said she didn't
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry. Then it's my
8 misunderstanding as to what the witness said, because I
9 just wondered whether this is an appropriate witness to
10 put this to. Thank you.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I would like
12 to clarify, this tape will be numbered D/1 and the
13 transcript D/1/1.
14 [Videotape played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The SDA
16 Democratic Action Party, a Muslim party, its members
17 are Yugoslav citizens belonging to the Muslim cultural
18 and historical circle. The need for the forming of
19 such a party exists for a long time. The idea took
20 shape in the democratic changes in Yugoslavia and
21 Europe. The idea to form the SDA was first made public
22 at the end of March 1990, at a press conference held in
23 Sarajevo. The founding assembly of this party was held
24 at the end of May, also in Sarajevo. The first SDA
25 convention, the party leadership, and bodies were
1 elected and various documents adopted. Political,
2 economic, and cultural reports were approved, as well
3 as the party programme and Statute.
4 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic was elected party
5 president. The party was officially registered in June
6 as the First Democratic Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I apologise for
8 the poor quality of this video to one and all. May I
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.
11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you know who the guests were at this rally
13 in Foca?
14 A. No. I could have seen it on television and
15 over the radio, but I wasn't interested in the party.
16 Q. Do you agree that they were the top party
17 leadership of the SDA, headed by Alija Izetbegovic, who
18 were present as guests at that rally? Did you hear
19 about that? Did you hear the question?
20 A. Yes, I know that he was present.
21 Q. Who else was there, together with Alija
23 A. Well, let me tell you one thing. I don't
24 belong to the party. I'm not interested in the party.
25 I saw it on television, of course. I probably read
1 about it in the papers, but I was against that, and I
2 was still against it.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Who else was there? Do you
4 know or you don't know. We don't want iteration,
6 A. I don't know.
7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you know that at that rally plans were put
9 forward for the future of the SDA and plans to make
10 Foca the centre of the Islamic world?
11 A. It is very difficult for me to answer your
12 questions, because if you had listened to my testimony
13 previously, I said what kind of family I belonged to,
14 and I stated that I am against any kind of
15 nationalistic party, and against any other, any party
16 whatsoever. What was stated at this rally, the SDS
17 rally, all this to me is as alien as this rally.
18 Q. I should like to repeat that you are under
19 oath, and I am asking you these questions in order to
20 -- not to question your honesty, but to arrive at
21 certain information as to the occurrences in Foca
22 related to this particular case and related to the
23 founding rally of the SDA party. So I should like to
24 ask you to answer my questions, if you would.
25 A. I do not know what the party programme was.
1 Q. Do you know that at that particular meeting
2 Ugljanin took the floor?
3 A. Yes, Stojan Ugljanin. Yes, I heard about
5 Q. Do you know, in brief terms, the contents and
6 focus of his ideas?
7 A. No.
8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
9 it is almost 1.00. I have another video to show you,
10 so is this a good time to break, perhaps, and to carry
11 on after the pause?
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we shall break for lunch
13 and we shall carry on in the afternoon at 14.30 hours.
14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll continue the
4 Yes, Mr. Kolesar.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak
6 into the microphone.
7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. The last question I put to you was whether
9 you know anything about the speech made by Sulejman
10 Ugljanin at the last SDA rally. If you recall, you
11 said that you didn't know.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And now I'm asking you the following: The
14 rally that was organised as the founding assembly of
15 the SDA for Foca, was that a promotion of the Bosniaks
16 or Muslims?
17 A. I don't know. I'm not -- there's something
18 wrong here.
19 [Technical difficulty]
20 A. I, indeed, was not involved in any kind of
21 political life, least of all any kind of nationalist
22 parties. I wasn't interested in the least bit in
23 that. The promotion of Bosniaks, Muslims, I don't
24 know. I don't know what that is, really. Is that the
25 same thing, or is being a Muslim a question of
1 belonging to a certain religion and a Bosniak belonging
2 to a national group?
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I'm putting a question to you, and I kindly
5 ask you to answer that question, not to give me
6 comments. You keep avoiding answers to my questions.
7 I'm going to remind you of something else.
8 In the statement that you made to the investigators of
9 the International Criminal Tribunal, you spoke about a
10 gathering sometime in 1990 on the occasion of the
11 establishment of the local SDS, and on that occasion,
12 you said that many speeches were made, that terrible
13 threats were made during this rally. For example, they
14 said that the Drina River would be full of blood, the
15 Muslims would disappear from this area, et cetera.
16 As far as the SDA rally is concerned, that is
17 to say, a party which, according to your ethnicity and
18 religion, is much closer to you than the SDS, you don't
19 know anything about it, or you don't want to say it.
20 You have been asked to testify here as a witness, and I
21 remind you once again that you are testifying under
22 oath and you're supposed to say what you know.
23 A. I am supposed to say, on the basis of this
24 oath, what I know, and what I do not know, I'm not
25 duty-bound to say. What I did not know myself, for
1 sure I said, "I heard about this," "Somebody told me,"
2 et cetera. I cannot say now that I knew what was said
3 at this party meeting when I don't know what was said.
4 Q. But through the mass media. You are an
5 intellectual, you're a doctor, and it is certain that
6 you followed daily news; today, as you did then. So if
7 you followed what happened in connection with the SDS,
8 it is certain that -- it may safely be assumed that you
9 followed developments concerning the SDA, and it is
10 certain that on television and through the newspaper,
11 you could have found out what happened at this rally in
13 A. Believe me, these stories from nationalist
14 rallies I always found repulsive.
15 Q. Yes, I also find these stories repulsive, but
16 we are here before a court of law.
17 A. I cannot make any comments about things I do
18 not know of. I said that for the SDA, that I heard
19 about this and that I was shocked by the statement made
20 by my colleague Kornjaca, and I would have told him
21 that had I met him. And I cannot say now that I heard
23 Q. Sorry. Did anybody tell you anything about
24 this related to the -- I mean, if you heard about this
25 SDS meeting, did someone tell you anything about the
1 SDA meeting?
2 A. Well, there were stories --
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you wait for the witness to
5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the interpreters have
8 to follow, and we have a record here. Wait for the
9 witness to answer before you ask your next question,
11 A. I was amongst those people who did not belong
12 to nationalist parties. People talked about it, and
13 people who belonged to my group, who were against
14 divisions, against national divisions, they were
15 against the members of nationalist parties leading the
16 country to disaster. What Ugljanin said, what
17 Izetbegovic said, I did not read that because that,
18 according to what I heard, also went in another
19 direction. That's what was heard in Parliament too.
20 So that's it.
21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. That's what I'm asking you to say. If you
23 heard what was said at the SDS rally, could you tell us
24 now, what did you hear about the SDA rally?
25 A. Believe me, that day, I was out on the ground
1 working. I was not interested. I did not ask anyone;
2 I didn't ask my close associates. I wasn't
3 interested. I don't know.
4 Q. All right. Let's try to remind you.
5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the
6 audiovisual department please play tape number 2, and
7 we would like to tender this into evidence as D2. We
8 have provided the registrar with copies of the
9 transcript in English.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The videotape
11 will be marked D2, and the transcript D2/1.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: I appreciate my friend's
14 difficulty in trying to get this evidence in, and I am
15 not suggesting for a moment that it shouldn't go in. I
16 just wonder whether it should go in through this
17 witness, in light of her evidence, that she doesn't
18 know anything about it. There may be another way or
19 another witness or part of the Defence case. And I am
20 not objecting to it going in. I just don't know
21 whether it's fair to put it to this witness. I
22 understand, however, what he is doing now is saying:
23 Watch the video, see if that reminds you of anything,
24 and then, perhaps, getting the witness to say: Nope,
25 it doesn't remind me, or, yes, it does.
1 If that's his intention, I withdraw my
2 objection, but I still have a problem with the
3 groundwork for getting this videotape played now.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a description of
5 the tape, Mr. Kolesar, before it is shown, so we know
6 whether or not it's relevant and we know whether or not
7 it's okay for this witness to discuss.
8 Yes, Mr. Kolesar. Okay.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The tape can be
10 described in the following way: It shows one of the
11 speakers at the founding assembly of the local SDA in
12 Foca, Mr. Semso Tankovic. That is one of the
13 characteristic speeches which should jog the witness's
14 memory. I am trying to find out from this witness
15 about something that I'm sure that this witness knows
16 about; if not directly, then indirectly, just as she
17 knows about what happened at the SDS rally.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, the Bench is of
20 the view that you have to clarify what you want to do
21 with this video. Are you intending to produce it into
22 evidence through this witness or are you simply using
23 it to jog her memory, as you say it, and then ask her
24 questions later? What is it that you want to do?
25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
1 precisely the latter. I wish to jog the witness's
2 memory and then to introduce this into evidence.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead.
4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the tape
5 please be played now.
6 Your Honour, do I have your leave?
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, to play it. Yes, so that
8 she can see it.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] So could the
10 audiovisual department please have it played now.
11 [Videotape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Are we Serbs?
13 No. Are we maybe Croats? No. Are we Muslims? Yes.
14 Esteemed gentlemen, esteemed reporters, esteemed
15 friends, Serbs and Croats. Here you had the
16 opportunity to hear how, on behalf of three million
17 Muslims, the people gathered here answered who we are
18 and what we are. We are Muslims and don't you ever
19 forget that.
20 This is also an answer to all those who, for
21 whichever petty political reasons, might have declared
22 themselves Serbs or Croats, though they belonged to the
23 Islamic religion, and those who say that the SDA
24 doesn't suit them because it is an excessively
25 green party. I tell them from this spot: Let it be
1 green because it is ours. SDA. SDA.
2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I thank the
3 technicians for having played this.
4 Q. What you saw and heard now, does it remind
5 you of someone having told you about it, this speech,
6 or any of the other speeches?
7 A. First of all, I do not belong to the SDA
8 party. This speech is repulsive to me. I have never
9 heard of this speaker, and I kindly ask the Honourable
10 Court to protect me from such questions. I do not
11 belong to a nationalist party. I was in favour of the
12 division of Bosnia. I attended the promotion of my
13 party that was represented by Zarko Verajic, a
14 well-known sportsman. I cannot agree with what you
15 keep imposing on me, that I know this and that I agree
16 with this. I am a Muslim person, but I am a person who
17 belongs to Bosnia, who loves Bosnia. Bosnia is my
19 This party I dislike, just like I dislike the
20 SDS, because they brought about what happened, and I
21 kindly ask you to spare me of these questions, which I
22 find so unpleasant.
23 Q. I believe that the questions are unpleasant,
24 but I am not asking for you -- you to present your
25 political orientation. I am just asking you whether
1 you know anything about this?
2 A. I never heard this. I never knew this. I
3 never saw this tape with my very own eyes.
4 Q. When you made a statement to the
5 investigators of the International Tribunal, and you
6 repeated it several times today, that you are not a
7 member of any nationalist party, but you are a member
8 of the Socialist Alliance.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you please clarify this to us. What
11 kind of an organisation is this, and what were the
12 programme tenets of this association?
13 A. Well, the Socialist Alliance is not really a
14 political party. It brought together people. It is,
15 in a way, a party, but it was not related to some kind
16 of a political platform; that is to say, what was
17 advocated by the other parties. To tell you the truth,
18 now I can't even remember all of this, after all these
19 years, what it's orientation was. I tell you once
20 again, I was a member of the League of Communists of
21 Yugoslavia, I was a member of the Socialist Alliance,
22 and I attended the promotion of the party that was
23 promoted in Sarajevo, and the leading person there was
24 Zarko Verajic, who was the leading sportsman of
1 Q. And of Yugoslavia?
2 A. Yes. I could not attend things that were
3 repulsive to me and I did not know about it.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down, says the
6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Who was a member of the Socialist Alliance?
8 A. Every working person.
9 Q. What about the Socialist Alliance of the
10 working people of Yugoslavia? As an organisation, did
11 it have any influence on social-political relations?
12 Did it have any influence in politics?
13 A. I think very little.
14 Q. Why did it exist then, if it did not have an
16 A. Well, it was probably some kind of a
17 coordinator. But I was not some kind of a leading
18 member. I was involved in my own line of work. This
19 was --
20 Q. Well, now, we are getting to that question
21 too, related to your own work. In this statement, when
22 you talked about the weeks prior to the war, and then
23 in the last paragraph you say, "I did not see any
24 changes in the general atmosphere in the hospital, but
25 I --"
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow
3 Q. "-- however, I must emphasise that we Muslim
4 doctors were not members of political parties and were
5 not interested in political affairs."
6 That is your statement. Do you still abide
7 by that statement?
8 A. Yes, I abide by that statement.
9 Q. Your colleagues, doctors and the medical
10 staff, who worked there, who are Muslims, were not
11 politically active.
12 A. I just said "my colleagues." I said that
13 they did not belong to nationalist parties. I perhaps
15 Q. Do you know, perhaps, that at this founding
16 rally that we keep referring to all the time, that in
17 the presidency, there was a colleague of yours, and
18 also a medical technician?
19 A. I think, when I talked about my colleagues
20 who were in the camp, I think that I said that
21 Dr. Ibrahim Karovic was a member of the SDA. I think.
22 I don't know about the others.
23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the
24 audiovisual department please play videotape number 3
25 for us now.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Could you describe it? What is
2 it about?
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] It is part of
4 the founding assembly of the SDA in Foca, where the
5 presiding members are shown, including certain persons
6 who are colleagues of this witness, that is to say, a
7 doctor and a medical technician.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Again, I have the same
9 concerns. I don't need to repeat myself.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will go ahead and view
11 the tape.
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Do you have a
13 transcript of this tape, please, for the interpreters?
14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, there's no
15 text. There's no text. It is just a shot.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Pause, please.
18 Would you rewind it, and could we have a still of the
19 two people on the tape. Further back. Could we have
20 more light, please.
21 Q. Do you recognise this individual?
22 A. This is Dr. Sosevic. He was a physiologist;
23 he worked in the clinic, not in the hospital. He is a
24 physiologist, a specialist for lung diseases.
25 Q. Is he a doctor?
1 A. Yes. Yes, he is a doctor.
2 Q. Your colleague, by profession.
3 A. Well, that is to say, he is a doctor, but he
4 specialises in pulmonary diseases. I am a paediatrics
5 specialist for premature babies. He belonged to the
6 health centre, and I worked in the hospital. I did not
7 know that he was a member of the SDA. But again, that
8 is his personal affair. I was not a member of that
10 Q. What is he by ethnicity?
11 A. He's a Muslim.
12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] May we focus in
13 on the next individual.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you recognise this man?
17 A. I don't think he had anything to do with the
18 medical profession. I don't know him, no. If you tell
19 me his name and surname -- I don't know him.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should like
22 to thank the technical booth.
23 Q. On the same question, let me ask you the
24 following: Do you know that in the 1991 elections for
25 the president of the Council of Municipal Assemblies of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, one of the candidates, in addition
2 to Petko Cancar, there was also Dr. Ibrahim Karovic
3 from the health centre in Foca. He is, by ethnicity,
5 A. A Muslim.
6 Q. As you can see, amongst your colleagues,
7 there were indeed people who were not only members of
8 the SDA but were in the leadership structures of the
9 municipality and republic. Now, please tell me, on the
10 basis of what were you able to conclude in your
11 statement that doctors of Muslim ethnicity were not
12 members of political parties.
13 A. I was a physician in the hospital. I was
14 talking about my colleagues, the colleagues that worked
15 in the hospital with me. Dr. Karovic and Dr. Sosevic
16 were not doctors in my hospital.
17 Q. Well, that is not what it says. It just says
18 "doctors" in this statement, "doctors of Muslim
19 ethnicity." You did not say "doctors working in your
20 hospital in Foca."
21 A. I don't think that is important at all. The
22 important thing is that I know --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: No, it is important, Witness.
24 It is important. Just answer the questions as they are
25 put to you. Because when you simply say "doctors," it
1 means all the Muslim doctors. So you have to be
3 A. May I just say a few words?
4 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Wait for the questions
5 from counsel and answer them.
6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You say you were not a member of any party,
8 but you were a highly respected citizen of Foca and a
9 well-known and recognised physician, and your own
10 personal human qualities were highly respected. Can
11 you tell us whether you know any representatives,
12 although you were not a member of the SDA, in the
13 political leadership of the municipal authorities or
14 republican authorities?
15 A. I know that that man was the president of the
16 SDA, Taib Lojo, and who was in the other authorities, I
17 don't know. Perhaps there was Saja. Saja was a
18 greengrocer. I don't know about any others. To be
19 quite frank, I was never interested. About Taib Lojo,
20 I do know because he was president of the
21 municipality. As for Sajo, I know that he was in the
22 leadership somewhere. I don't know what function he
23 had, but I do know that he was a greengrocer.
24 Q. Do you mean you don't know, or you don't wish
25 to answer? Let me remind you, you enumerated the
1 functionaries of the SDA who were in the municipal and
2 republican leadership organs, the SDA ones who were in
3 the republican authorities. Radojica Mladenovic; then
4 you mentioned Sekul Stanic, Miroslav Stanic, Spaso
5 Cosovic, and so on and so forth. You enumerate at
6 least 10 or 12 names of Serbs who held
7 responsible sociopolitical positions in the
8 municipality and in the republic. But when it comes to
9 the Muslims, that is to say, members of your own
10 ethnicity, you only enumerate two; a greengrocer, which
11 I will not dignify by mentioning him, and the president
12 of the municipality.
13 A. Well, listen here, you asked me -- I was
14 asked whether I could enumerate some of the posts
15 filled by the Serbs in the municipality, and I must say
16 that many of the people that I enumerated there, I knew
17 personally and I treated their children. So if I did
18 state their names, I cannot say that I was interested
19 in enumerating the SDA people. I know that in the
20 republican assembly, there was a man called Saja and
21 Lojo. But as for the others, I really do not know.
22 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that the
23 president of the Bosnia-Herzegovina government was
24 Dr. Muhamed Cengic?
25 A. The vice-premier? Yes.
1 Q. And what is he by ethnicity?
2 A. He is a Muslim.
3 Q. What about Zulfer Pjano, the district
4 prosecutor? The public prosecutor in Foca, what was he
5 by way of ethnicity?
6 A. He was a Muslim.
7 Q. You've told me about Saja. Do you agree with
8 me that the head of SUP was Himzo Selimovic?
9 A. Perhaps in the last elections. I really
10 don't know.
11 Q. I'm asking you all this, I'm referring to the
12 period after the elections in 1991, I'm not really
13 interested in what happened before.
14 A. I don't know about him.
15 Q. Do you know that he was commander of the
16 Territorial Defence -- that Sulejman Pilav was
17 commander of the Territorial Defence, although,
18 according to the municipality's statute, this post
19 should have been filled by a Serb, this post should
20 have gone to a Serb. Sulejman Pilav.
21 Please tell me one more thing. What is your
22 husband by profession?
23 A. He is an engineer, forestry engineer.
24 Q. After the 1991 elections, where was he
1 A. Before and after the elections he worked in
2 the Maglic Company.
3 Q. What was his post?
4 A. He was a director of processing, and later on
5 was a member of the executive council.
6 Q. Was that during the time that the OUR
8 A. Yes. Afterwards he was on the business
9 board. He was on the business board or board of
10 directors of the Maglic Company.
11 Q. You mentioned the OUR, Organisation of
12 Associated Labour, which was the structure that existed
13 in the former Yugoslavia and governed labour
14 relations. This was before 1991, in force before
15 1991. Was your husband a member of the League of
16 Communists of Yugoslavia?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Later on was he a member of the SDA?
19 A. Heaven forbid.
20 Q. Do you know that a club of intellectuals,
21 Muslim intellectuals, was set up which accept the
22 programme and statute of the SDA, but were not actually
23 members of the SDA?
24 A. Probably those were people who did gravitate
25 towards the SDA.
1 Q. Was your husband a member of that club?
2 A. As far as I know, he was not. He never opted
3 for anything that would be attached to a nationalist
5 Q. I should like to ask the usher to show the
6 witness a document. It is a list.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Each time you want to show the
8 witness anything, can you sufficiently describe it and
9 tell us for what purpose you are showing the witness
10 the document.
11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should like
12 to show the witness the list of the people present of
13 intellectual Muslim cadres from the Foca municipality
14 which attended a meeting with representatives of the
15 municipal board of the SDA, and to remind the witness
16 about an individual under number 11, and ask her
17 whether it is in fact her husband, [redacted].
18 MR. RYNEVELD: I just heard a name mentioned
19 and it can't go on the ELMO. Perhaps this is
20 something, if there is a delay for the broadcast of
21 this, I would ask that this be a good time to check
22 into that.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: What we can do, the witness can
24 be shown the document, without showing it on the ELMO,
25 and then can say whether or not number 11 is the name
1 of her husband, without mentioning it. And I think
2 the name was mentioned somewhere, so can the Registrar
3 get --
4 JUDGE HUNT: It was definitely mentioned and
5 shouldn't have been.
6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do
8 JUDGE MUMBA: So you can go ahead. If you
9 can see -- just mention the number.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: While the witness is looking,
11 I wonder whether this is a document that has been shown
12 to us. It may be, I just don't know which document she
13 is looking at.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar -- and I thought
15 there was a page --
16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The document
17 was not presented either to the Prosecution or to the
18 Trial Chamber. I just wanted the witness to have a
19 look at it, and if she confirms my claims, then I would
20 like to tender it into evidence, with the permission of
21 the Trial Chamber, of course.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, you haven't shown
23 it to the Prosecution. They don't even know what the
24 document is. I was of the view that all you wanted was
25 a name, because we can't mention the name. That's
2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] At this point
3 in time, when the witness answers, if we cannot tender
4 it into evidence, we will present it to the Trial
5 Chamber as an exhibit later on, on another occasion
6 during the trial.
7 A. I apologise, I can't see his name here at
8 all, and there isn't a signature. I think if
9 somebody's name is here without a signature, then he
10 was not present at the meeting. And, as far as I know,
11 my husband was never a member of anything. So anybody
12 could have wrote down his name, but I can't find him
13 here. I can't find the name on the list, and certainly
14 not his signature.
15 Q. I said under number 11. The copy isn't a
16 very clear one.
17 A. Well, quite possibly. This isn't quite clear
18 to me. I do apologise, but this isn't clear.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the document back,
21 A. I cannot accept this. First of all, it's not
22 clear, and, secondly, next to each name you would have
23 to have a signature. If the signature is beside the
24 name, it means the person was present. If there is no
25 signature, and this is all this has been added onto, it
1 is not clear, illegible and so on.
2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Unfortunately,
3 we haven't got an original of this document with us at
4 the moment.
5 If my distinguished colleagues are against
6 having this material tendered into evidence at this
7 point, then I will withdraw it. We have heard the
8 witness's answer to my question.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: No, it can't be tendered into
11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Very well. I
12 agree with you, Your Honour. And that was to have been
13 my last question. I have no further questions.
14 And I'd like to ask the document to be
15 returned to me in that case, please. Thank you.
16 May I sit down, Your Honour?
17 JUDGE MUMBA: No. No. You haven't
18 finished. Because the document must be numbered, even
19 if it is not produced into evidence. Unless you are
20 saying you -- you said you withdraw it? You said you
21 withdraw it, so you don't want it to be numbered
23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] If it cannot be
24 entered into evidence. But, yes, I would like it to be
25 numbered and have it remain.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: So the numbering will be for
2 identification only.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
4 will be marked D/4.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: And if, as you say, that you
6 may want to produce it through another witness at a
7 later stage, the Prosecution must be given copies, so
8 that they can do their own investigation.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I assumed that
10 the Prosecution, in view of what I wanted to ascertain
11 here today, would not have made any difficulties, but I
12 abide by their right to do so, and I withdraw.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Jovanovic, any
15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination,
18 Mr. Ryneveld?
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness
21 33. We are very grateful that you came here.
22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do
1 apologise, Your Honours. I didn't understand. I
2 understood that I did not have the right to
3 cross-examine the witness.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: No. No. No. I asked you
5 whether you had any questions, and you said no.
6 Do you wish to put any questions to this
7 witness, as a result of the evidence she has given?
8 You are Defence counsel for the third accused.
9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] There seems
10 to have been a misunderstanding, Your Honours. I do
11 apologise. I do have questions for the witness, but
12 not linked to what we were discussing a moment ago.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: So you would like to
14 cross-examine this witness? Yes, please, go ahead.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
16 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Good day.
18 A. Good day.
19 Q. I am not interested in the questions that
20 were put here in relation to political affiliation, and
21 what happened in Foca before the war and all of that.
22 I am interested in something else. If you could please
23 clarify to us a bit some of the things you said in your
24 statement on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of July 1995.
25 Before we move onto this, if you agree, I
1 would like to clarify some expressions that you used
2 during the course of this day, and which I did not
3 really understand. Namely, the following: When you
4 say, "We were in favour of peace. We did not believe
5 that something bad would happen. People were saying
6 that medical supplies were being taken away." Can you
7 tell me exactly who you have in mind? Who is "we"?
8 What does "we" mean?
9 A. I think most of us, people who were in my
10 environment, who belonged to my circle that I moved in.
11 Q. Does that involve Serbs and Muslims?
12 A. That involves Serbs and Muslims.
13 Q. And Croats?
14 A. Yes, and the Croats, who were very few,
15 because there were members of all three ethnic groups
16 that were in favour of peace rather than war.
17 Q. If I followed what you said this morning
18 correctly, you said that there were good human
19 relationships that had you with Serbs, and that you
20 also had some relatives among the Serbs?
21 A. Yes. Yes. Until the present day.
22 Q. All right. Until the present day. I am
23 asking you this for the following reason -- actually,
24 just one more question before that. At this critical
25 period before the armed conflict broke out in Foca, I
1 imagine that you followed the mass media, as we say.
2 Did all ethnic communities have all the mass media
3 accessible to them?
4 A. Yes. Yes. All of us could watch on
5 television what was going on, in the assemblies, on the
6 radio, television, et cetera. And, for example, these
7 quarrels, these quarrels of these persons who
8 represented these nationalist parties, because they
9 were the ones who held leading positions in the last
10 parliament. For a normal and honest person, this was
11 repulsive behaviour.
12 Q. Yes, that's right. Since you just said to me
13 now that you followed the mass media --
14 A. Yes. Yes. As far as the parliament is
15 concerned. Yes. Yes. As far as the parliament is
17 Q. Okay. I see from your statement that these
18 rallies that were held in Foca --
19 A. Yes, I only heard about that in the evening,
20 because this happened late. They sang, for example,
21 these songs of combat, "We are in favour of peace. Get
22 out. We are not going to have a war, are we?" I heard
23 things like that.
24 Q. All right. Could you explain your claim that
25 you were surprised when the conflict broke out in Foca;
1 if, before that, you knew all of that, and if you were
2 aware of that, how come?
3 A. I don't understand what you are saying. I
4 didn't understand this very well.
5 Q. Well, you said that you had Serb friends?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That you had Serb relatives?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That you followed the mass media?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That you followed what was going on in the
12 parliament; that you were aware of -- at least to a
13 certain extent, what was going on at the founding
14 assemblies of the nationalist parties. If you were
15 surprised, if you were taken by surprise by what had
16 happened in Foca --
17 A. Could you believe -- according to your
18 dialect, I assume that you are from Serbia. Could you
19 believe that after a good life together there could be
20 a war? I could not believe that.
21 Q. I am not asking you whether you believed
22 this. I am just asking you how come you were caught by
23 surprise. These were two completely different notions,
25 A. Well, listen. You lawyers interpret things
1 differently. I am not a lawyer.
2 Q. Yes, but you are also an intellectual. And I
3 think that we understand each other. We are speaking
4 the same language.
5 A. I did not expect the war.
6 Q. All right. Can you explain to me the reason,
7 or can you assume, why none of your Serb relatives or
8 Serb friends did not warn you of the possibility of an
9 armed conflict break-out, and you are on such good
10 terms with them?
11 A. I was on very good terms with all of them.
12 No one told me a thing about any of this. Those who
13 had family ties and those who were good friends with me
14 in Foca, and my colleagues, who were closer to me or
15 those who --
16 Q. Please. Please. We have heard this quite a
17 few times now. I am asking you concretely, and could
18 you give me a concrete answer. None of your Serb
19 relatives or Serb friends warned you; right?
20 A. Right. No one
21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Now,
22 could the witness please be shown the statement that
23 she made on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of July 1995, in the
24 Bosnian language, of course. If you do not happen to
25 have a copy, we have a copy. So if you wish.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Does the Prosecution have a
3 MR. RYNEVELD: We do not have one in B/C/S
5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No problem
6 whatsoever. We've got a copy.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: I understand that that
8 particular document in Serbo-Croat is already in your
10 MR. RYNEVELD: We have had a copy
11 translated --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: You have the English version?
13 MR. RYNEVELD: I definitely have lots of
14 English versions of it.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: So the Serbo-Croat -- so it is
16 a Prosecution document?
17 MR. RYNEVELD: It's a Prosecution document, I
18 believe, if that's what he is referring to. I have
19 umpteen copies in English. I just didn't have one in
20 B/C/S to hand to the witness.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: So we'll have the B/C/S one
22 handed to the witness.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: It's Exhibit 37 in the binder.
24 Now, I have not introduced, of course, this
25 document into evidence as an exhibit, but if the
1 Defence is intending to refer the witness to it, then
2 perhaps, if she is going to be referring to it, is it
3 their intention to make it an exhibit, and if so, the
4 English version should also come before the Court.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: First of all, we have it
6 numbered for identification, and then counsel will say
7 whether or not they actually want it introduced into
8 evidence. Or maybe counsel maybe just wants to raise
9 questions with the witness.
10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
11 I asked for this statement to be shown to the witness
12 in the Serbian or Bosnian language just in order to
13 communicate more easily, so that she could follow the
14 questions that I may have for her on that basis.
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This will be
16 the Exhibit, Prosecution Exhibit number 37.
17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Have you had a look of the statement that was
19 given to you?
20 A. Page 1?
21 Q. Page 1. The title. I think you are supposed
22 to turn back, as far as I can see from here. No. No.
23 No. Back, back, back. We are starting from the very
24 beginning of the document that is in front of you.
25 There we are.
1 You are the person who is mentioned here
2 where it says "name," right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You made this statement on the 3rd, 4th, and
5 5th of July, 1995?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So that is undeniable now? You accept this
8 as your own statement? I didn't understand you to say
9 yes or no.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Can we start with page 4,
12 please. On page 4, paragraph 3, paragraph 3 starts
13 with the sentence stating: My colleagues of Serb
14 ethnicity, et cetera, et cetera. Have you found it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Somewhere in the middle of this paragraph
17 there is a sentence which says --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not
19 have a copy.
20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Have you found this?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. For the Trial Chamber, could you please read
24 this whole sentence.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters do not have a
1 copy, so you have to read what you want them to
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
5 Q. "It was being said that the Serbs were arming
6 themselves. I heard at the time that Serbs were being
7 given weapons by the truckload. That must have been
8 true, because when the conflict broke out, all of them
9 were armed. I did not see this myself. I heard this
10 from other persons."
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So that's your statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you hear about who this was who
15 distributed weapons to the Serbs?
16 A. I heard that in the evening trucks drove
17 weapons around and gave them to people from -- and gave
18 them to people, Serbs.
19 Q. Did you perhaps hear about any other side
20 getting weapons?
21 A. I know that the other side, as far as I
22 heard, bought weapons. We mentioned a person a few
23 minutes ago, that they could only buy weapons but they
24 could not get it. But then I don't know. That, I
25 don't know.
1 Q. I don't understand what you're saying. You
2 don't know whether the other side bought or got
4 A. I heard that some people got -- bought
5 weapons, but they did not get it, that they were not
6 distributed to them.
7 Q. Oh, they were not distributed to them. But
8 if I understood you correctly, both sides were arming
9 themselves, were they?
10 A. Yes. But the fact was that the Serb side was
11 much better armed.
12 Q. On which basis do you draw this conclusion?
13 Are you a military expert?
14 A. No, I'm not a military expert.
15 Q. On which basis do you draw this conclusion?
16 A. On the basis that everybody was armed.
17 Q. Who is everybody?
18 A. Those who were in town and who wore military
19 uniforms. That is how I drew that conclusion.
20 Q. All right. We're going to get to that part
21 of the question too. But now you said it -- did you
22 see in town both armies?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So you saw only one army.
25 A. While the shooting went on, I was in the
1 basement, and then I was taken to the camp.
2 Q. Witness, that is not what I'm asking you.
3 I'm asking you --
4 A. I just saw one army.
5 Q. And on that basis, did you conclude that one
6 army was armed and the other one was not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So you see one side, you do not see the other
9 side, and on that basis you draw a conclusion.
10 A. I did not see the party -- the other side
11 because I could not see the other side, because I was
12 in the basement while there was shooting, and when the
13 shooting stopped --
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Please help
15 us to follow you better, and we would kindly ask you to
16 make breaks between questions and answers.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: You have a problem because you
18 don't have your earphones on, so you don't know when
19 the interpreters are talking.
20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] You're quite
21 right, Your Honour, and I won't repeat it, it won't
22 happen again. I apologise.
23 Q. May we go back to my question now. You saw
24 one side; you didn't see the other side.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you concluded from that that one side was
2 armed and that the other side was not armed.
3 A. I didn't speak about the other side at all.
4 I didn't say it was not armed. It says quite clearly
5 that I presumed that it was because everybody -- et
7 Q. You said a moment ago, when we talked about
8 the method in which people came by weapons, that one
9 side was better armed than the other side. Now we have
10 just tried to make this more concrete in the manner --
11 that is to say, how you came by that conclusion, and I
12 think we have clarified that point now. You were able
13 to see one thing, and from that you deduced your own
14 conclusions. Thank you.
15 May we now --
16 A. I am listening to the French interpretation,
17 and I can't hear you now, I'm afraid. I hear the
18 French interpretation.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Could the usher please help the
20 witness with the correct interpretation channel,
21 please. What is the correct channel, Mr. Usher? What
22 is the correct channel for the witness?
23 THE USHER: Six.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Six.
25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Can you hear me now?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. Let us go down to paragraph 4.
4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As the Trial
5 Chamber and my learned friends for the Prosecution do
6 not have the translation before them, I shall say, in a
7 word, what this document and this paragraph is about,
8 and then we will hear the witness answer. This
9 paragraph talks about the disappearance and taking away
10 of medical equipment and medicines at the critical
12 Q. If I may, and if you agree, Witness, I would
13 just like to point to a section of your statement, a
14 part of your statement, in paragraph 4. You say, "I
15 did not see that with my own eyes but I heard about it
16 from other colleagues, that medicines were being taken
17 away from the hospital. The man who was in charge of
18 the hospital pharmacy was a Serb. His name was Vitomir
19 Mrgud, and it is highly probable that he organised the
20 taking away of the medical equipment."
21 I am now interested in a term you use, "it is
22 highly probable," "almost probably." Does that mean
23 that somebody else could have organised that, except
24 for Mr. Vitomir Mrgud?
25 A. If Vitomir Mrgud was in charge of the
1 hospital pharmacy --
2 Q. Witness, I'm asking you whether it was
3 possible that somebody else was responsible for taking
4 away the medicines. Please answer yes or no.
5 A. I think that nobody but the head, the person
6 in charge, could do that. So if I am head of a
7 department, I'm in charge of what happens in my
8 department. And he was head of the pharmacy, hospital
9 pharmacy, and was responsible for what happened in his
11 Q. Could you please give me a yes or no answer.
12 Was it possible that anybody else did that, or is it
13 not possible?
14 A. I cannot answer that. I can only assume that
15 the head of a department, or the head of any
16 institution must know what is going on in his
18 Q. Yes. I'm not contesting that fact, that the
19 head of a department is always responsible for his
20 department, that is his job. But that does not mean
21 that he, in fact, did do that; do we agree?
22 A. Well, quite -- well, possibly. But I think
23 that the person in charge of a service or department is
24 responsible for what goes on in that department, in the
25 department under his charge, in his charge.
1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us move on.
2 In the same paragraph, paragraph 4, on page
3 4, the witness states as follows: "The trucks were
4 driven by hospital drivers, and I assume that they
5 transported the material to the surrounding Serbian
7 I should now like to ask you one question in
8 this connection, perhaps two. How many drivers did the
9 hospital have?
10 A. I don't know exactly, but there were at least
11 seven or eight.
12 Q. Do we know what those drivers were by
14 A. There were both Serbs and Muslims.
15 Q. Did you know all of them?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. On the basis of what are you able to assume
18 that this was done by the hospital drivers?
19 A. Because they would drive the ambulances and
20 this material was taken off in ambulances.
21 Q. Just one moment, please. I don't quite
22 understand you. You know that this was taken off in
23 ambulance vehicles?
24 A. I assume it was, yes.
25 Q. If I understand you correctly, you assume a
1 lot of things but don't actually know what happened.
2 A. I did not see any of this taking place, but I
3 heard tell.
4 Q. Would you please answer my questions? I'm
5 not asking you --
6 A. You cannot make me say something that I don't
7 know about.
8 Q. I'm not compelling you to do anything,
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, if you understood the
11 question, you would be able to answer correctly. You
12 simply listen to the question and answer. If you don't
13 know, you say so. If you assumed anything, you say you
14 assumed something. Okay? Just answer the questions
15 put by counsel.
16 A. I said that I assume. If I have the right to
17 say "I assume," then that is what I said. I said I
18 assume or I suppose, I presume.
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you hear the President of the Trial
21 Chamber? Would you please give me a yes or no answer,
22 or say you don't remember, but don't say you assume.
23 A. She said that I could say I assume.
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I
25 apologise. It was my mistake, Your Honour. It was my
1 mistake, Your Honour, and I do apologise.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: I know that when you're
3 cross-examining you expect certain answers from the
4 witness, but the witness can only give answers she is
5 able to give. If it's knowledge, if it's an
6 assumption, that's up to her.
7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] You are, of
8 course, quite right, Your Honour.
9 Q. May we look at the next paragraph, please,
11 A. Yes. Go ahead.
12 Q. Paragraph 5, page 4. "In the early spring of
13 1992, my colleagues and I noticed about ten military
14 trucks with Trebinje number plates taking off what was
15 referred to as war reserves, such as bandages,
16 antibiotics, drips, infusion solutions, and similar
17 items." Now we come to something that you actually saw
18 yourself. Who you please describe those military
19 trucks for us?
20 A. They were military trucks with tarpaulins,
21 canvases over them, and they were aligned on the road
22 above the hospital building and --
23 Q. Just one moment, please. For yourself, and
24 for the Trial Chamber and myself, it will be much
25 simpler if you give me brief answers, please. What
1 colour were those trucks?
2 A. The grey/olive green colour.
3 Q. How far away from the trucks were you?
4 A. Some 15 metres.
5 Q. From that distance, were you able to see or
6 recognise the number plates on the trucks?
7 A. I was not able to, but other people who were
8 closer by were able to. I did not see the registration
10 Q. Does that mean that this part of your
11 statement is not correct?
12 A. It is correct, because other people saw them,
13 and they said that the number plates were Trebinje
14 number plates, and they told me that.
15 Q. Just one moment, please. Would you read what
16 you stated, and the paragraph begins "In the early
17 spring ..."
18 A. What do you wish to ask me? That from 15
19 metres away, I was not able to see the Trebinje number
20 plates --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You were asked to read a
22 certain part, and that's all you should have done.
23 A. "In the early spring of 1992, my colleagues
24 and I noticed some ten military trucks with Trebinje
25 number plates taking off these so-called war reserves,
1 such as bandages, antibiotics, drips, infusion
2 solutions. The individual who organised this was Simo
3 Stankovic, director of the hospital administrative
4 department. As the trucks were from Trebinje, I assume
5 that they were taken off to the Trebinje front."
6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Let us go back to the beginning of the
8 sentence. Did you see or did you not see the number
10 A. I saw them.
11 Q. Do you know what number plates exist on
12 military trucks?
13 A. These had Trebinje number plates. Maybe they
14 weren't military trucks, but they were the SMB, that is
15 to say, the olive-grey/green trucks with canvases.
16 Q. If I understand you correctly, at one point
17 you say that they were military trucks but had civilian
18 number plates.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What led you to that conclusion?
21 A. Well, I saw the number plates. I cannot make
22 any conclusions. If it is a Trebinje number plate,
23 then I assume that it is a military truck.
24 Q. Do you know what kinds of number plates
25 military trucks have and what kind civilian trucks
2 A. No, I do not know that.
3 Q. Let me ask you again. On the basis of what
4 fact did you know that these were military trucks,
6 A. Because the people who drove the trucks were
7 wearing military uniforms.
8 Q. That is a new piece of information that has
9 not come up so far in your testimony.
10 A. Well, I don't have to write down everything
11 in my statement.
12 Q. There's no problem there. Whose uniforms
13 were they?
14 A. They were the SMB uniforms, the
15 olive-grey/green type.
16 Q. Whose were they?
17 A. How should I know? How should I know whose
18 uniforms they were?
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, you are not here to
20 ask questions. Please answer questions put to you by
21 counsel. If you don't know, you say so. We shall get
22 on much, much better.
23 A. They were military; I don't know whose. They
24 wore military uniforms; I don't know which uniforms
25 they were.
1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Continuing on in your
3 statement, you say that the shipment of this new
4 material was conducted by Simo Stankovic. How do you
5 know that this was done by Simo Stankovic?
6 A. Because he was there with the people taking
7 out this material, and I think he was in charge of this
9 Q. Do you think or do you know?
10 A. Well, I know that he was with that group of
11 people who were taking off this material, so I assume
12 that it was him. I assume it was him.
13 Q. So what you say in the statement is not
15 A. I saw him there.
16 Q. No. Just one moment, please, Witness. You
17 say, "The man who organised the shipment of this
18 material was so and so."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now you say "maybe." So make your choice.
21 Which one is it?
22 A. I shall stick by the fact that it was Simo
24 Q. Let us go back again. How do you come by
25 this conclusion?
1 A. Because he was amongst the group of people
2 who were loading up the material, he signed papers. So
3 who else could it be? It couldn't have been me.
4 Q. Now, who it could have been, that could be a
5 long story, we could go into that at some length. Are
6 you quick to bring in conclusions?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I don't feel that that is so.
9 A. That's what you think.
10 Q. If we go back up the statement, you see one
11 side who's armed -- you say one side is armed, you see
12 one side armed, and you say the other side isn't. You
13 see a truck, a green truck, with no military number
14 plates, but you conclude that it is an army truck. You
15 see Simo Stankovic standing there, and you make the
16 conclusion that he was the organiser of this whole
18 Let us go onto the next sentence, when we are
19 making these deductions and conclusions.
20 "As the trucks were from Trebinje, I assume
21 that the reserves were taken to the Dubrovnik front."
22 Is that not a premature conclusion on your
24 A. The war raged in Dubrovnik.
25 Q. Madam, the war has been raging in our country
1 for the past ten years. I know that you feel bad about
2 it, and so do I, equally so, but I am asking you
3 something quite different, and I would like to hear
4 your answer. And I am waiting?
5 A. What are you waiting? What do you wish to
7 Q. An answer to my question. How you were able
8 to deduce that these trucks were taking these reserves
9 to the Dubrovnik front?
10 A. I assumed they were taking it to the
11 Dubrovnik front.
12 Q. Very well.
13 A. And that's what I say here in my statement, I
15 Q. We have an enormous number of assumptions
17 Let us move onto page 5. Page 5, paragraph
19 A. Do you want to read it, or am I going to read
21 Q. It's all the same. Okay. I am going to read
23 "About a week before the war broke out,
24 Zdravko Milicevic hanged himself. He worked as a
25 doorman at the hospital. This was a great shock to
1 all, because everyone liked him at the hospital.
2 Afterwards, when the war broke out, we remembered that
3 he often repeated before his death that he would not be
4 capable of killing anyone, of hurting someone's child
5 or of torching someone's house. I think that he
6 received orders that he could not carry out, and that
7 that was the reason why he killed himself."
8 Did you know the late Zdravko Milicevic?
9 A. Very well. He was an exceptional man.
10 Q. Okay. Okay. Did he tell you -- I am going
11 to reformulate this question. Can you focus this
12 expression of yours somehow, "we remembered," without
13 mentioning any names? Does that mean your friends,
14 neighbours, family members, who remembered?
15 A. We who were often on duty in the hospital.
16 He was on duty at the gate, he was a gatekeeper, a
18 Q. Okay. Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a
19 second. After the war broke out, after -- well, look.
20 There is not much time left. There's about ten
22 A. Well, this has been too much for me anyway.
23 Q. Well, it's too much for me too, but what can
24 I do? This is your statement.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we please proceed with the
1 case, rather than emotions.
2 Mr. Ryneveld.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: This is cross-examination, and
4 I appreciate that there is wide latitude in
5 cross-examination, but she is now being cross-examined
6 about a paragraph in her statement which was not led
7 in chief. I just want to point that out. I realise
8 it's in her statement, but if she is being
9 cross-examined on evidence she wasn't led on in
10 chief -- at least I didn't lead that from her.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: That is her statement which she
12 made, which is -- yes.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: I didn't ask every -- there
14 are certain portions, of course, in trying to make it
15 relevant. My friend finds it relevant. I agree that
16 this is --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Credibility issues.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: There is wide latitude for
19 cross-examination. I just want to point out, it was
20 not something on which she was led in chief.
21 JUDGE HUNT: That only demonstrates that you
22 didn't think it was very important, but apparently
23 counsel cross-examining does. Simply to show, as I
24 understand the cross-examination, that she has
25 exaggerated or jumped readily to conclusions in her
1 statement. These, I suppose, are relative to
2 credibility, is it not?
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I just
4 thought I would point out the fact that the
5 cross-examination is on some area in which the witness
6 was not led in chief.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, when it comes to
8 statements made by witnesses, it does not matter
9 whether the Prosecution raised anything in the
10 statement, because everything that is said in the
11 statement by a witness who is on the stand can be
12 raised in cross-examination.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: I am not taking issue with
14 that at all. I just thought I would point out the fact
15 that this matter was not led in chief from the
16 witness. But I probably have wasted enough time on the
17 issue and I'll sit down. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I think I should say, though,
20 that ruling by the Presiding Judge, I hope, is limited
21 to -- provided its relevant, in some way at least to
22 credit. Just simply because it's in her statement,
23 doesn't make it relevant. It has to be relevant to
24 some issue in the case, which includes the credibility
25 of the witness. At least that's how I understood the
1 ruling, and that's the way I would rule. If it's meant
2 to be something different, I'm afraid I would have to
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Please go ahead.
5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
6 Your Honour.
7 Q. Just a minute. Let's please go back to
8 this. Right.
9 Later you said, "After the war broke out."
10 If I followed carefully enough what happened to you
11 after the war broke out, you spent eight days in the
12 basement and then you were arrested. So, in that
13 period of time you remembered --
14 A. No. No. I started to work. I started to
15 work after --
16 Q. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You are right.
17 You are right. This is after you were released from
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You started to work then?
21 A. Yes, I started to work and then we discussed
23 Q. Who discussed?
24 A. At the ward, we who were working at the
25 ward. There were Serbs, Muslims, men and women,
1 colleagues, those who were not in favour of war.
2 Q. Well, look, I don't know how this procedure
3 goes, but can the witness be shown that part of her
4 statement when she says which Serbs and Muslims were
5 still employed when she went back to work. I think
6 that there is a bit of contradiction there, but I don't
7 have it in front of me now. Do you have her testimony
8 of today?
9 A. I am talking about until the 20th of May,
10 both one and the other.
11 Q. All right. When you say that you remembered
12 that he often repeated before his death, did you
13 actually hear this from him yourself, that he was not
14 capable of killing or of hurting a child?
15 A. Yes. Yes. He was often on duty, and when we
16 were on duty too, and then he would either stop by the
17 ward and have a cup of coffee, and he kept saying, "I
18 could not kill my neighbour's child. I could not torch
19 someone's house." Do you think it's normal to say
20 something like that? I think that's normal.
21 Q. I think it's normal too. I think it's normal
22 too. But let us just continue.
23 On the basis of what do you think that he
24 received orders to hurt someone's child or to kill
1 A. Because he hanged himself just before the
3 Q. That's not what I am asking you. That's not
4 what I am asking you. I am asking you on the basis of
5 which -- of what do you think that he received orders
6 to kill someone or to hurt someone's child or to torch
7 someone's house? That's what I am asking you.
8 A. I assume.
9 Q. On the basis of what do you assume that?
10 A. On the basis of his story, and later the fact
11 that he hanged himself. As a person, he could not
12 allow himself to do so. So I am looking at this as a
13 human being too.
14 Q. Wait a second. As far as I understand this,
15 we, as human beings -- well, it would be very difficult
16 for any one of us to hurt someone's child, or to torch
17 someone's house. Something has to happen, that is, so
18 that I would kill myself on account of that. Isn't
19 that right? I think that his position is that of a
20 normal person; isn't that right? Do you agree with me?
21 A. If he was receiving orders from someone to do
23 Q. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I am interested
24 in the following: Where did you get this idea that he
25 got orders from someone to hurt someone's child?
1 A. That is my assumption, because he was a
2 normal person, and he could not hurt someone's child.
3 Q. Madam, in your statement --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, wait for the witness
5 to complete the answer.
6 A. On the basis of what he said earlier on, what
7 is mentioned here too, I assume that he was given
8 orders, and that he, as a human being, could not allow
9 himself to do so, and he killed himself.
10 Q. So that is yet another one of your
11 conclusions? He was a Serb. I assume that another
12 Serb ordered him to do that. Is that your assumption
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I did not hear your answer.
16 A. Yes. I could not have ordered him.
17 Q. You said yes?
18 A. I could not have ordered him.
19 Q. No. No. No. I don't think you did it.
21 A. You mean whether I think that it's a Serb who
22 ordered him to do that?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Yes, I assume that is so.
25 Q. Does that mean that a Muslim could have
1 ordered him too?
2 A. Well, yes, he could have.
3 Q. So everything is possible, right?
4 A. I assumed that a Serb ordered him. For
5 example, someone from this group that wanted to carry
6 out ethnic cleansing in this area.
7 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Aha. Can you give me
8 the names of some of the members of this group that
9 were getting ready for ethnic cleansing, and what was
10 the connection between Zdravko Milicevic and some of
11 the members of this group that was getting ready to
12 carry out ethnic cleansing and issuing orders to kill,
13 to hurt children and torch other peoples houses?
14 A. I cannot give an answer because I don't know.
15 Q. Wait. Wait. Just a minute. Then what you
16 said is not correct?
17 A. It is correct. I said that I think that I
18 assume that it is so, because he was an honest man and
19 he could not allow himself to do that.
20 Q. But that means that someone ordered him to do
22 A. Well, yes. Let it be that way.
23 Q. So that someone was someone who was getting
24 ready for ethnic cleansing?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So who was this? Tell me the name of one
2 person, or several persons? How old was Zdravko
4 A. Well, he was very young. He was younger than
5 40. I don't know exactly.
6 Q. Was he a member of a party?
7 A. I don't think so.
8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
9 a minute or two to 4.00.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Ask one or two questions. You
11 still have questions to ask?
12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Unfortunately, I do.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah, one more, or two.
15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So you definitely do not know whether he
17 received orders or did not receive orders; this is just
18 your assumption?
19 A. My assumption.
20 Q. Thank you. Just a minute. Let us move onto
21 page 6. Paragraph 4. Your Honour. Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do
24 apologise. This question of mine -- this question of
25 mine, unfortunately, will require, I imagine, a bit
1 more time than the time we have left today.
2 Do you think it would be advisable for me to
3 embark upon this right now, or should we leave this for
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think it's 1600 hours,
6 or almost. Maybe we can start tomorrow morning at
8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: We will adjourn until 9.30
11 tomorrow at 9.30 a.m.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
13 at 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on
14 Wednesday, the 22nd day of March, 2000,
15 at 9.30 a.m.