Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 442

1 Tuesday, 21 March 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Will the registrar please call

7 the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number

9 IT-96-23-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac,

10 Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: I take it the parties are as

12 before, and we'll simply proceed.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Madam President,

14 Your Honours.

15 Before I commence this morning, I might just

16 ask formally for an order of this Court to allow the

17 procedure that we hope to adopt this morning with

18 respect to witness protection. I've spoken to my

19 learned friends, and they have agreed to the screen and

20 facial alteration for purposes of the television

21 cameras. This witness was not part of any formal

22 application prior to this, the matter was brought to

23 our attention only recently, and we are seeking an

24 order from this Court permitting this process this

25 morning.

Page 443

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can you confirm that you

2 agree with the protective orders?

3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

4 Honour. I agree with my learned colleague. We have

5 discussed it, and there will be protective measures and

6 the request for them.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. We may proceed. So

8 the protective measures asked for are hereby granted.

9 We can proceed.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. Might

11 the witness be sworn.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

13 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

14 and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

18 Q. Witness, before you, the usher will show you

19 a piece of paper that I'd like you to look at, please.

20 You've looked at the piece of paper, and does that

21 paper bear your name and a witness number?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'm going to be referring to you by that

24 number throughout these proceedings, and I understand

25 that the other parties in these proceedings will also

Page 444

1 refer to you by number only, not your name.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: I understand that the note is

3 being shown to members of the Court. Thank you. If

4 that is to be marked as an exhibit, I suppose we're up

5 to 176, although I do not know whether you wish it to

6 become an exhibit. Perhaps it ought to.


8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Under seal.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Under seal, yes, please. And

11 is that number 176, by my calculation?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar?

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The number of

14 this witness, it is Witness 33, and it will be Exhibit

15 176, Prosecution 176.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

18 Q. Now, Witness, I understand that you are, in

19 fact, a medical doctor and received your medical

20 training in Belgrade; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct. I am a doctor, I

22 graduated from the Faculty of Medicine in Belgrade, the

23 general part, and I did my specialisation in Belgrade

24 and sub-specialisation course in Zagreb.

25 Q. And your speciality was paediatrics; is that

Page 445

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. Now, you grew up in the Foca municipality.

4 A. I did.

5 Q. You married there and had children there.

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. And you worked there in your profession and

8 taught school to other medical students in the Foca

9 area in the years leading up to 1992 and shortly

10 thereafter.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. Thank you.

14 Q. Can you tell us what your ethnicity or

15 religious affiliation is?

16 A. By religion I am a Muslim, and by ethnicity I

17 am a Bosniak.

18 Q. Yes. Do I understand correctly that you were

19 not involved in any political activities prior to the

20 war?

21 A. No, I was not.

22 Q. I wonder if you'd be so kind as to tell us

23 your understanding of the relationship between Muslims

24 and Serbs in the time when you lived in Foca, prior to

25 1990. Just generally speaking, what was the state of

Page 446

1 the relationship between the people living in Foca?

2 A. Before the war, the relations were such as

3 you could only wish for. We all lived the same life.

4 We didn't divide ourselves into Serbs, Croats, Muslims,

5 or any other ethnic group. We all lived together. We

6 were all kum to each other's families. We married;

7 there were 30 per cent of intermarriages in Bosnia. We

8 would celebrate the new year together and all the other

9 holidays and festivities. We would go to other

10 religious celebrations celebrated by our neighbours,

11 the Serbs and the Croats; they would come to us for our

12 own festivities and holidays; we would all celebrate

13 the feasts together. It was the kind of life that you

14 could only wish for.

15 Q. And I understand that at some point that

16 blissful relationship changed; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. They changed sort of

18 overnight, unfortunately.

19 Q. I would like you to turn your mind to the

20 year 1990, or thereabouts, and tell us if there is any

21 particular incident that showed that there was a

22 change.

23 A. Well, I couldn't say precisely what

24 particular time it was, 1990, but in Foca rifts began

25 to be apparent between the Serbs or Muslims. Perhaps

Page 447

1 there was an incident called the Focatrans, which is a

2 transport firm, and there was some disagreement between

3 the director of the firm, who was a Muslim, and several

4 of the workers who were of Serb ethnicity.

5 And after that, there was the formation of

6 the national parties. Whether that was in 1990 or

7 1991, I really don't know, because I wasn't a member of

8 any nationalist party.

9 But we continued to live in harmony together,

10 although you could feel something in the air, that

11 something was happening, something which was making

12 this divide between people. I couldn't express this in

13 words. I couldn't tell you how this was. You could

14 notice this. It wasn't in the streets. It wasn't

15 anywhere tangible. It was just conflicts between

16 people of different ethnic groups.

17 And that is when the national parties were

18 formed, the SDA and the SDS. The national party SDA

19 belonged to the Muslim side, the SDS was the Serbian

20 party. And I think that this led to a terrible divide

21 between people. It separated people, and later on it

22 led to the things that happened. For example, the

23 leaders of the national parties wanted to have their

24 own national states, and this affected us. It

25 influenced us. We thought that perhaps something would

Page 448

1 happen, and that if we were to divide ourselves up, we

2 wouldn't be able to live the life that we had lived up

3 till then. And those of us who did not belong to any

4 of the nationalistic parties found this very hard to

5 accept.

6 Q. All right. You referred to the SDS and the

7 SDA as the two national parties that were created in, I

8 take it, approximately that time, was it?

9 A. I think it was 1990. I'm not quite sure,

10 though. You know, I didn't belong to any of these

11 parties, so I'm not quite sure when that was. But I

12 think that it was in that year, or around those years

13 that the nationalist parties were formed.

14 Q. The creation of the SDS or the founding of

15 the SDS, do you know -- do you recall an incident

16 involving the football stadium in Foca and any reports

17 of what occurred at that meeting of the SDS?

18 A. At the stadium in Foca, the SDS was founded.

19 I wasn't there, but it was open to the public, all

20 people of all nationalities could take part. They

21 could go and listen to see what was being said, what

22 the plans and programmes of the party were. So I

23 wasn't there, but as far as I know, the leading people

24 from the republican SDS were there, such as Biljana

25 Plavsic, Maksimovic, Ostojic, and probably Karadzic.

Page 449

1 I'm not quite sure, as I say. But I heard about this

2 later on, and heard about it on the radio and in the

3 press and television. And one of my colleagues was

4 there from a neighbouring municipality. His name was

5 Dusko Kornjaca.

6 And what I was astonished with, as an

7 individual and as a doctor and humanist, were the

8 declarations that were made, and that the Drina, the

9 River Drina would flow bloody again.

10 This is what happened during World War II,

11 blood in the River Drina. And this is something that I

12 couldn't understand, how could people say such things,

13 things that were not akin to human dignity or to our

14 profession, or in line with a meeting of this kind,

15 after such harmonious life in common life together.

16 How could people make statements of that kind?

17 Q. From TV and radio reports, as well as what

18 you understood your colleagues to have said at that

19 meeting, was there any indication to you as to what the

20 fate of the Muslims in Foca would be, what would happen

21 to them? Was it intended that they continue to remain

22 in Foca?

23 A. The republican assembly, that is to say the

24 republican parliament, we always watched sessions on

25 television, and in recent years the two parties, who

Page 450

1 were nationalist parties, began to quarrel. There were

2 constant quarrels between them. And I recall one

3 particular statement made by Karadzic when he said,

4 "Either Bosnia will be divided according to the ethnic

5 principle, or one of the nations will be wiped out from

6 these areas, and that would be the Muslims." And of

7 course every normal human being would begin to be

8 afraid of something like that. But nobody believed

9 that anything like that could ever happen.

10 Q. Thank you, witness. I would like you now to

11 turn your mind to a time about a week before the

12 outbreak of war in Foca. So we are talking about the

13 beginning of April, end of March 1992.

14 Can you tell us what the situation was like

15 in Foca, in terms of the tensions in the air or the

16 state of relationships between people about a week

17 prior to the war?

18 A. As far as I remember, and as far as

19 relationships among colleagues -- my colleagues went in

20 the hospital, the relationships remained the same. But

21 there was something that was a little strange, and that

22 was that my colleagues at the Serb nationality would

23 meet in a room alone, and if somebody would go into

24 that room -- and I liked to always comment openly about

25 everything with everyone -- they would stop talking

Page 451

1 when I went into the room. And I would say, "Well,

2 carry on talking. I'd like to hear what you are

3 talking about. Is it anything that is against us or

4 things of that kind?" But I never received an answer.

5 But, as I say, relations between us were also

6 always friendly and proper amongst us. They stayed the

7 same.

8 But what happened in town, although I can

9 only say that I heard talks about that, because I

10 worked a great deal, I worked in the hospital very

11 hard, so all the stories I heard, I heard from other

12 people who came to the hospital, either from my

13 colleagues or from the nurses who would bring these

14 stories back from their homes in town. They said that

15 there was a lot of talk of the division of SUP, which

16 is the Secretariat for Internal Affairs, it was called

17 SUP, and that this divided into two parts, into the

18 Serbian section and the Muslim section.

19 So that the people were divided in that way,

20 practically in two parts in town; the Serbian part and

21 the Muslim part. I'm not talking about the Croatian

22 part here, because there were very few Croats in our

23 town.

24 And this was something that scared us a great

25 deal, because to divide institutions which are there to

Page 452

1 protect both ethnic groups must necessarily lead to

2 something bad. And, as far as I know, people who were

3 employed in the SUP did not agree to that division,

4 because they had been working in the SUP for many

5 years. They were friends. They had quite proper and

6 correct relationships. There was no reason for this

7 division. But the leading people from the SDS, and I

8 think these were Maksimovic, Ostojic, Cancar, people

9 like that, they insisted upon this division. And I

10 think that that is what occurred, that there was this

11 division which led to general chaos.

12 Q. If I can stop you there for a moment and just

13 back you up to clarify a couple of issues that came up

14 during your answer. First of all, you indicated that

15 your professional colleagues at the hospital would stop

16 talking or some of those people would stop talking.

17 Were these people also Muslims or were they Serbs?

18 A. They didn't stop talking to us, but they

19 would, say, be in a room together, uni-nationally, if I

20 can say that, and they would be discussing a subject,

21 and if one of their colleagues, a Muslim, went into the

22 room, they would stop talking. But our contacts

23 continued, our professional contacts. They would just

24 stop talking if they were in a room together. The

25 Serbs, for example, if they were in a room, the medical

Page 453

1 staff, and they were discussing something, if any of us

2 Muslims were to enter the room, they would stop

3 talking, which we didn't find very nice. But, as I

4 say, our relations as colleagues remained the same.

5 But they would stop talking when any of us would enter

6 the room. And this gave rise to some doubts that

7 something was perhaps amiss.

8 Q. All right. The second part of the

9 clarification I was looking for is you mentioned SUP,

10 and I think you told us what that means. Am I correct

11 in understanding that that is another name for the

12 local police; is that correct? Or am I wrong in that?

13 A. Yes, that's right. That was the name of the

14 local police.

15 Q. And you gave it another name. It was a

16 Ministry of the Interior or something. What did you

17 call it?

18 A. Secretariat of the Internal Affairs or SUP.

19 Q. And that is the actual police force that

20 regulated the laws around Foca municipality, or Foca

21 town? Nodding your head, meaning yes?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. Now, just so that I am clear on this point,

24 do I understand that the politicians of the day were

25 wanting to divide the police force into a Serbian

Page 454

1 section and a Muslim section; is that what you were

2 telling us?

3 A. Yes, that's what I was telling you. The

4 politicians wanted to divide the police force into a

5 Serbian section and a Muslim section, which would

6 continue to contact, maintain contacts, but the Serbs

7 would work with the Serbs, the Muslims with the

8 Muslims, and they would contact amongst themselves,

9 between themselves. That was what was being said

10 around town.

11 Q. And that was a change, obviously, from what

12 had been there before?

13 A. It was a big change, yes, and we were very

14 much afraid of that change because we did not expect

15 that anything bad could happen after the wonderful life

16 we had together, after our lovely communal life, and we

17 never had any reason to fear anything. But as soon as

18 you begin to divide people into two parts, there is

19 always the fear that something could happen to make

20 relationships become difficult between the ethnic

21 groups.

22 Q. Now, was there any evidence that you could

23 see or hear about that that indicated people were

24 starting to react to this division? In other words,

25 did everybody remain in Foca, or did people start to

Page 455

1 leave?

2 A. We wondered, my colleagues, in concrete

3 terms, because they were closest to me, why they would

4 take their families away to Serbia, or their children,

5 at least, if not their wives, why they took them to

6 Serbia and Montenegro. This wasn't quite clear to us.

7 We wondered what was going to happen. But our

8 colleague -- our children would come to us if they were

9 somewhere else, and we weren't fully conscious of the

10 situation that existed.

11 Later on, when matters took the turn they

12 did, we realised that they must have known what was

13 going to happen and, therefore, that they wanted to

14 protect their own children; that is how I came to

15 understand it. They wanted to protect their children,

16 but we didn't protect ours, because the Muslim feast of

17 Bajram was coming up and all of our children who were

18 out of Foca came home for the holidays. I have two

19 children, for example, they're both students, and they

20 both came home for the Bajram holiday.

21 Q. From your answer, am I to assume, or are we

22 to assume, that people were moving out of Foca?

23 A. As I said, the children and the women who

24 were not employed would leave Foca, with their

25 children.

Page 456

1 Q. Were these Serbian families that were leaving

2 with their children, or were there Muslim families that

3 were leaving with their families?

4 A. They were Serbian families with their

5 children, they were the ones who were going off.

6 Q. Just so that we're also clear, what time

7 period are we now talking about?

8 A. Well, let me see. It might have been some

9 ten days before, let us say, the war began in Foca,

10 that is to say, when the shooting started, when

11 barricades were erected. So it was about that time.

12 And it was on the 8th of April that shooting started in

13 Foca, and this was some ten days before. Perhaps some

14 Muslim families left as well, I don't know, perhaps

15 they were informed of what was going to happen. But I

16 do know that my colleagues and their families would go

17 to Serbia and Montenegro, and other well-to-do people

18 in town who were able to take their families off did

19 so.

20 Q. All right. Now, did you hear anything about

21 other strange developments that were happening in this

22 time period leading up to the war, in particular, with

23 respect to weaponry or the Serbs preparing with

24 weapons?

25 A. This was in the press, it was also on

Page 457

1 television. They would show trucks transporting arms

2 from Serbia to Bosnia, and it was said that these

3 trucks were moving around at night to arm the Serb

4 families. I didn't see that; I just heard that this

5 was going on in Foca as well.

6 Q. Was there any later evidence that supported

7 these, call it, rumours?

8 A. Well, I think it was confirmation of that

9 because when the shooting started, practically all the

10 Serbs were armed.

11 Q. Now, you indicated that you worked in a

12 hospital. Can you tell us anything about things such

13 as medical supplies or medicines that fit into this

14 pattern that we've been talking about?

15 A. Several months before the war broke out,

16 perhaps three to four months prior to the war, we had

17 great shortages of bandages and all the other equipment

18 used in surgery, gynaecology, the eye, ear, nose

19 surgery department, and people began to notice that the

20 bandages, the drips, and everything necessary to treat

21 the wounded and injured had begun to be lacking in the

22 hospital. Some people said they saw some ten trucks

23 going off one day, taking away the reserve medical

24 equipment, and that they had taken practically all the

25 bandages, the drips, and all this, that they had taken

Page 458

1 them off.

2 We had a separate building, which was behind

3 the main hospital building, where we held these

4 reserves, and these trucks, with Trebinje number

5 plates, had probably taken all this material off to the

6 Dubrovnik front, because the war in Croatia was already

7 in full swing. So they would take all the bandages and

8 drips from the hospital. And I heard that this medical

9 equipment was being taken to the surrounding villages,

10 where allegedly they were preparing field hospitals so

11 that they could have all this medical equipment at

12 hand.

13 Q. Do I understand you correctly to say that

14 this process of stockpiling of medicines and

15 transporting them was occurring before the 8th of

16 April, the outbreak of the war, the three- to

17 four-month period leading up to that?

18 A. Yes, before that, three to four months before

19 the war broke out. But we didn't pay any attention to

20 this. It was only later on, when everything else

21 happened, that we were able to link this up with the

22 subsequent events.

23 Q. Where were the pharmaceutical supplies kept

24 in Foca, before they got to the hospital?

25 A. Where the pharmaceutical supplies were kept.

Page 459

1 Well, there was a building behind the hospital, some 50

2 metres behind the hospital, which was built for wartime

3 reserves of this kind, purposely, and what the hospital

4 used, that was in the hospital pharmacy, one of the

5 buildings that made up the hospital complex; that was

6 where these pharmaceuticals were kept.

7 Q. Was there also a warehouse of a

8 pharmaceutical company in Foca?

9 A. Yes, there was a warehouse. There was a

10 warehouse of medical supplies. It was nearby, near the

11 Aladza High School. It was called the Velafarmacija

12 warehouse, and there were major medical supplies

13 there.

14 Q. Do you know who the director of that

15 warehouse was and what her ethnicity was?

16 A. In the hospital, the director of the hospital

17 pharmacy was Vitomir Mrgud; he was an ethnic Serb. In

18 Vela Farmacija, there was Milka Przulj; she was also an

19 ethnic Serb.

20 Q. I see. And these were the people, then, that

21 would control the pharmaceutical supplies.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, were there any imminent

24 warnings about the outbreak of war, just leading up to

25 the 8th of April?

Page 460

1 A. I think it was around the 5th of April. In

2 Foca, on the 5th of April, in the evening, there was a

3 peace rally; Muslims and Serbs took part in it. It was

4 a Sunday evening. Serbs and Muslims were there; my

5 children were also there, they were university students

6 at the time. I did not attend the rally. I don't know

7 how many people were there.

8 Also, this was broadcast on television all

9 the time. There were ads that were running on

10 television, saying that we were in favour of peace,

11 that we did not want war. For example, we saw on

12 television that there were military units on the

13 move -- I didn't see this personally, but I saw it on

14 television -- military units moving towards Sarajevo,

15 towards Trebinje, towards -- well, that was what was on

16 television; it was in the press as well. We did not

17 think that anything bad would happen, even at that

18 stage. There wasn't any reason for that, we thought.

19 Q. All right. Now, you lived in Foca most of

20 your life, and you've told us that prior to the

21 outbreak of the war, it was a peaceful community and

22 everybody got along. Is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. I take it you must have had many friends who

25 are of different ethnicity or religion from you; is

Page 461

1 that correct?

2 A. I had several friends who were ethnic Serbs.

3 Actually, I had more ethnic Serb friends than ethnic

4 Muslim friends. My very own sister is married to a

5 Serb; my mother's brother is married to a Serb; another

6 brother of my mother is married to a French person; and

7 another close relative is married to a Croat. So this

8 was really a small-scale Yugoslavia, so to speak.

9 Q. What that question is leading up to is, were

10 there any warnings from your friends, to either you or

11 to your neighbours, about the imminent outbreak of the

12 war, any warnings to leave town, or anything of that

13 nature?

14 A. That is a very painful question. What pains

15 me the most as a person, and as a professional, as a

16 friend, a colleague, is that none of my colleagues,

17 none of my friends, told me anything about this. I had

18 two children too. I worked in Foca; I worked there for

19 29 years. Everybody knew me well. I helped everyone.

20 Even outside working hours, I practically had a clinic

21 at my own home and no one ever paid a dinar for it. It

22 pains me immensely. I'm sorry. No one said a word to

23 me; no one told me what would happen.

24 Q. I am going to ask you now -- if you need a

25 moment, just to have a drink. As difficult as this may

Page 462

1 be for you, I am going to ask you now to turn to the

2 8th of April 1992. And I would ask you to share with

3 us, if you would, in your own words, what happened on

4 that day that changed your life?

5 A. On the 8th of April 1992, like all others, I

6 went to work at 7.00 in the morning. However, the

7 hospital bus was not there. A few of us who met along

8 the road, we started walking to work. We encountered

9 two roadblocks at Gornje Polje. There were people in

10 civilian clothes there. But they had some kind of caps

11 or socks on their heads, so I could not recognise these

12 men. I did not have any problems, neither I nor my

13 colleagues, but, for example, the nurses that passed

14 there too, they didn't have any problems either.

15 So we went to the hospital and then people

16 started coming to the hospital en masse. Those who

17 were employed there, those whose families had remained

18 in Foca, they came to the hospital and they brought

19 their children, in the belief that something would

20 happen, that there were roadblocks there, the police

21 was divided. They sought refuge at the hospital.

22 Together with a colleague, I took an

23 ambulance to town in order to bring my family and for

24 him to bring his family. However, my family did not

25 want to leave our home. I remained at the apartment

Page 463

1 that we lived in with them.

2 Q. I am going to ask you just to slow down a

3 little bit so that the interpreter can stay up with

4 us. Okay.

5 Now, I understand you've painted the

6 background. Did you actually go to the hospital or did

7 you stay at home? I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I

8 understood that correctly.

9 A. I stayed at home. I stayed at home because

10 my family did not want to leave our home.

11 Q. All right. And did you at some point go to

12 the hospital at all?

13 A. Not at that time, no. I was in the basement

14 of my apartment building and together with all the

15 other tenants. The shooting had started already by

16 then. There was more and more shooting. We spent most

17 of the time in the shelter. During the day, when

18 shooting would abate a bit, I would go out. However, I

19 was afraid because the windows were drilled by bullets,

20 so I would crawl around the apartment.

21 Q. In what area of Foca was your home; what

22 neighbourhood?

23 A. My home was in the centre of town, opposite

24 the Cehotina, across the street from the Zelengora

25 Hotel. That's the part that doesn't belong to Aladza

Page 464

1 or Gornje Polje.

2 Q. All right. I am showing you a map later on,

3 but at the moment -- so you are in your home. Now, was

4 this a private dwelling or was it an apartment complex

5 or maybe you could describe where you were living?

6 A. It was in an apartment building, a

7 nine-storey apartment building with 27 apartments in

8 it. Serbs and Muslims lived in the building. We were

9 in the basement together. Some of the Serb families

10 did not go downstairs to the basement, however, most of

11 them were in the basement.

12 Q. So, I take it then, the residents of the

13 apartment block, Muslims and Serbs, sought refuge in

14 the basement; is that what I am understanding you are

15 saying?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were seeking refuge from what?

18 A. They were shooting in town. There was

19 shooting in town. I don't know who was shooting or

20 what was shooting. The windows were drilled. The

21 small bullets would go through the window panes,

22 through the furniture, and then in the evening there

23 would be even more shooting. I'm not knowledgeable, I

24 don't know about weapons and things like that. Maybe

25 it was shells or something. We were in the basement at

Page 465

1 the time, so you would just hear it. This shooting

2 would get stronger.

3 Q. How would you eat?

4 A. How did we eat?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Well, I already said that I would go out

7 during the day, and during the night, but I would crawl

8 most of the time. We would prepare bread for a few

9 days, and then we'd eat sandwiches. We'd have things

10 like spread for bread and salami, ham something.

11 Q. I see. Now, when you left the basement,

12 could you see what kind of damage was suffered by your

13 apartment?

14 A. Yes. When the shooting would stop, then we

15 would see that the glass was broken, and also some of

16 the furniture was torn, the upholstery from the bullets

17 that had hit it, and then, if there was a display

18 cabinet, then things would get broken in it.

19 Q. I see. How long did you stay in the basement

20 with your neighbours?

21 A. Eight days. From the 8th until the 14th of

22 April.

23 Q. Part of the time while you were there, could

24 you see what was happening to the rest of town?

25 A. One evening -- well, we didn't spend much

Page 466

1 time in the apartment. Our apartment was on the fourth

2 floor, so it was pretty high up. But one evening, it

3 was peaceful, there wasn't that much shooting. I think

4 it was the 12th of April. The town was illuminated.

5 And when we looked on one side, we saw that a part of

6 town was on fire. Before it was called the Prijeka

7 Carsija. That's a part of town where there were shops

8 in the style that was reminiscent of the period between

9 the two world wars. There were mostly small shops made

10 of wood. It's a special kind of building. It's more

11 Oriental. That part was on fire. That was burning.

12 And it had illuminated the entire area.

13 Q. Perhaps the witness at this point could be

14 shown, I think what has been marked in these

15 proceedings now as 12/1. That was the replacement map

16 that -- may I just see if that's the correct one.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I am showing you this document, Exhibit

19 12/1. First of all, perhaps we can put it on the

20 ELMO. Thank you, Mr. Usher. Although I expect that

21 the witness may need to actually have this -- since we

22 all have copies of the document, I think it may be

23 easier if the witness has the document right in front

24 of her, rather than using the ELMO, unless the Court is

25 going to need to have her point to it. I think there

Page 467

1 is a legend which will assist us with numbers.

2 I don't know whether the TV screen is going

3 to be as good for the witness as the actual document.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it's better to use the

5 ELMO, because of the screening of the face of the

6 witness.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I had forgotten

8 about that little detail.

9 Q. First of all, Witness 33, are you able to

10 recognise this map? Do you know what that is a map of?

11 A. I can recognise it.

12 Q. Do you recognise that as being a map of Foca?

13 A. I recognise this as a map of Foca. This is

14 Privredna Banka. This is an industrial part of town.

15 Q. Just stop for a moment. First of all, did

16 you assist the Office of the Prosecutor in preparing

17 this map, by identifying some of the areas that are

18 marked with numbers on this map?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. So this is based on information

21 that you supplied to the Office of the Prosecutor; is

22 that correct? Nodding your head?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness always answer,

24 please.

25 A. Yes.

Page 468


2 Q. All right. So you recognise this as a map of

3 Foca. And you were about to point something out to us

4 with the pointer, when I stopped you. Would you return

5 with the pointer to indicate for the Court what it is

6 you are about to describe?

7 A. This here is the very beginning. This is the

8 bank of the Drina River. It's on my right-hand side.

9 This is Brod. That is an industrial area. And then,

10 as you go downstream, you move towards Foca.

11 Q. For the record, you had just pointed to the

12 area on the lower left-hand corner of the map just

13 above the area labelled Brod?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You are moving your pointer upwards along the

16 Drina River?

17 A. Now we are moving towards the town of Foca.

18 Towards the town of Foca. Number 1 is Partizan. That

19 is a sports hall. Number 2 is the SUP, the Secretariat

20 of the Interior, the police. Then number 3 is the

21 municipality. Number 4 is a building.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ryneveld, the authenticity

23 of this document is conceded. Do we really need to

24 have it proved?

25 MR. RYNEVELD: I am not attempting to prove

Page 469

1 it, as much as I am attempting to acquaint the witness

2 with it, and then ask the witness some questions about

3 these buildings.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You got her to agree that she

5 assisted in its compilation, so let's get on with what

6 she wants to say about it.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I

8 shall.

9 Q. Witness, you've told us about the area that

10 you saw burning, and you've described to us that this

11 was, as I understand it, a rebuilt area after World War

12 II, and that it was of wood construction. Could you

13 describe to us where that area would be on the map, if

14 it's on the map.

15 A. I have to get a bit closer to this.

16 Q. Can her chair be moved or not? No, I guess

17 not.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's

19 microphone please be moved so the interpreters could

20 hear her.

21 A. Donje Polje is a settlement which is on the

22 other side of the road. It was predominantly Muslim,

23 perhaps 90 per cent. These were privately owned

24 homes. And on the other side of the road were

25 apartment buildings where ethnic Serbs, ethnic Muslims,

Page 470

1 and members of other ethnicities lived. I don't know

2 everything about this, but I think that most of this

3 part of town was burned down.

4 Q. All right. So the area that you are

5 referring to is where? Could you just point to it with

6 the pointer? The area you saw burning on the 12th of

7 April, the area you were trying to describe to us.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You are now pointing -- just below the

10 building referred to with the arrow number 7?

11 A. I am sorry. This was not on fire on the 12th

12 of April. Prijeka Carsija was on fire on the 12th of

13 April, and Prijeka Carsija is not marked on this map.

14 But that is a part of town that was in another area

15 from the Partizan Sports Hall towards the centre of

16 town, more or less, where -- how shall I put this?

17 This was a part that belonged to Gornje Polje, in part,

18 which is here. So that is not the part that was on

19 fire on the 12th of April. Prijeka Carsija was on fire

20 on the 12th of April, and it has not been marked on

21 this map. It is above the Zelengora Hotel in the

22 opposite direction. I really don't know how to locate

23 it now. There was a mosque there, which was also

24 destroyed, and then from that mosque there was a

25 marketplace. And then from that marketplace there was

Page 471

1 a road going uphill towards Prijeka Carsija. But all

2 of this is not marked on this map.

3 Q. Perhaps I can just ask you now to tell us,

4 did something happen on the 14th of April, and if so,

5 what was that?

6 A. On the 14th of April, some of my Serb

7 acquaintances called me during the night and said that

8 the military police would come in the morning to have a

9 look at people's apartments, to see whether anybody had

10 any weapons; if there were weapons, they would collect

11 them; that nothing would happen to us.

12 Of course, all of us were downstairs, at the

13 very entrance of the building, sometime about 6.00 or

14 6.30 a.m. A few people came, and then they told us to

15 go outside. We all went out, Serbs and Muslims, and we

16 went behind the building. They asked for all of those

17 who had weapons to surrender them. Everybody

18 surrendered their weapons, whoever had them. These

19 were people who had permits for these weapons, given by

20 that police station I mentioned. For example, my

21 husband had a pistol and he had a permit with it, so he

22 handed it over, the pistol and the permit.

23 Then we were told to go through a schoolyard,

24 there was a school there nearby, to go towards a clinic

25 that was there. At that point, I remembered that the

Page 472

1 bag where my husband's medicines were -- my husband was

2 ill -- was not with me. So I asked whether I could go

3 back and get my bag. One of the men who was present

4 there, I could not recognise him -- although he

5 addressed me as "Doctor," so he probably knew me

6 well -- and I said that I would come back as soon as I

7 got my bag with my medicines.

8 When I came back -- he also had this mask,

9 this cap on his head. I did not recognise him. It

10 wasn't really important. What was important for me was

11 to get the bag with these medicines. My husband could

12 not live without these medicines, so it was important

13 for me to get these medicines and the bag.

14 As we went back to my apartment, we came to

15 the door, I took the bag, and he said, "Doctor, if you

16 want to, go in and take all the valuables you have at

17 home." I just looked at him and I said, "Everything

18 that is inside is very valuable for me because this is

19 my home. This has been my home for almost 30 years;

20 I've been accumulating all of this." So I just closed

21 the door and left.

22 Then, he and I came to this local clinic.

23 There were other citizens there from the neighbouring

24 buildings; there were Serbs and Muslims. We were told

25 that we were safer there, and we stayed inside. There

Page 473

1 was a man there whose name was Nedjo, I don't know

2 exactly what his last name was, and we were told that

3 he worked at the Privredna Banka.

4 Then we were lined up, two by two, and we

5 were taken out to the fields; that is exactly what was

6 done. We started moving towards Livade. You can see

7 it on the map; it is number 9, the high school centre.

8 Over there, in front of the high school

9 centre building, there were lots of soldiers with

10 different insignia, with black caps; then with red

11 caps, like berets, with white armbands. We stopped for

12 about five minutes there, and then we proceeded towards

13 Livade, along this road that goes further up. Over

14 here, it says number 10 [indicates]; that is where

15 Livade is. That's where we were. That is where

16 military warehouses were before, and afterwards, the

17 Perucica Trade Company had its warehouses there.

18 On the side were soldiers who had rifles, and

19 they were walking by us. A soldier, at one point,

20 walked up to me. He did not have one of these caps

21 that disguised his face. I recognised him because I

22 knew him from medical school, and I even made a little

23 joke, and I said, "Had I known that you would do this

24 to me, I would not have been so nice to you in school,"

25 and he said, "Doctor, I want to help you. Don't let

Page 474

1 them take you to Velecevo," because that is where the

2 women's prison was, and "They might even beat you up

3 there. Go to Livade."

4 So we were taken to Livade. There was a big

5 hangar there at Livade. These warehouses were called

6 hangars. Then there was another one opposite that one,

7 and there was a third one that was on the side, and in

8 between was an empty space. We spent some time there,

9 and then this Nedjo reappeared. Also, there were some

10 men who wore olive-grey military uniforms. They did

11 not have any masks or caps on.

12 Then they registered our names. Nobody asked

13 either me or my family what our names or surnames

14 were. Probably the person who was making this list

15 knew us very well. But they registered the Muslims on

16 one piece of paper and the Serbs on another piece of

17 paper. This was a bit suspicious, and it was also a

18 bit insulting. We got out of the same building, we

19 lived together, and now, all of a sudden, we were

20 divided.

21 After some time, perhaps an hour or two, the

22 Serbs dispersed and returned to their homes, whereas we

23 stayed there.

24 Q. I'll stop you there. When you say "the Serbs

25 dispersed and returned to their homes," and you stayed

Page 475

1 there, you need to tell us who you're talking about.

2 Are these the people that had been taken from the

3 apartments and brought to Livade?

4 Again, nodding your head for "yes". Maybe

5 you can just stop at this point and tell us who was

6 assembled and whose names were being taken and put on

7 two different lists. Who were those people?

8 A. I don't know. I didn't know them. The only

9 thing that I saw was this man Nedjo, whom I didn't know

10 from before, but they said his name was Nedjo and he

11 worked in the commercial bank. There were three or

12 four men who were wearing military uniforms, and they

13 drew up these lists; one for the Muslims, another one

14 for the Serbs. So on one of these lists were the names

15 of the Muslims, and the other list contained the names

16 of the Serbs. There were about 100 of us there,

17 perhaps 120.

18 Q. Just stop there for a moment. I apologise

19 that my question obviously wasn't specific enough. I'm

20 talking about the 100 to 120 people that were assembled

21 there. Were those all people that were brought to this

22 place, like you and your neighbours were?

23 A. Yes. Yes. Those people who were there were

24 people from the neighbouring apartment blocks, next to

25 my own, where I lived.

Page 476

1 Q. I see. After these lists were made up, you

2 say that the Serbs went back to their homes. Who are

3 you talking about? Are these part of this 100 or 120

4 people that were assembled there?

5 A. Yes. They were Serbs who were part of these

6 people, some of our neighbours who lived in those

7 apartment blocks.

8 Q. So the people on the Serb lists got to go

9 home; is that what you're telling us?

10 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I was telling

11 you.

12 Q. Thank you. I'm sorry if I didn't understand

13 that, and I had to get it clarified. What happened to

14 the people on the Muslim list?

15 A. As there were a lot of us, and there wasn't

16 much space in that one hangar, this man Nedjo -- I

17 refer to him as "Nedjo" because that's what people

18 called him -- Nedjo said, "If somebody has somebody he

19 knows here, they can go and spend the night with them

20 and come back in the morning." I happened to know one

21 family called Bojat, the man's wife worked in the

22 hospital and I treated her grandchildren, and I said

23 that I could go to them, to stay with them. He phoned

24 them up and asked whether we could come; they agreed.

25 And so we went off, escorted, once again, by a young

Page 477

1 man wearing a military uniform, olive-green, whom I

2 happened to know very well. His name was Bojat too,

3 and he was a paramedic who worked in the hospital. He

4 escorted us to the Bojat house, where we spent the

5 night. In the morning, we returned to where the

6 hangars were.

7 Q. Back to Livade.

8 A. Yes, to Livade. That's what we were told.

9 Q. All right. What happened once you were

10 returned to Livade?

11 A. Then they divided us up into rooms. This

12 hangar had two rooms and a large hall, and there were

13 about 100 people there who were brought in during the

14 night. So in these two rooms, you had practically all

15 these people. In the room in which I was, with my own

16 family and with some 30 other people, it was a small

17 room, three-by-three metres, and there were quite a lot

18 of us there. There were even more people in the other

19 room; I don't know exactly how many because I didn't

20 leave my own room, so I can't say. Nor did I wish to

21 contact anybody or ask around. I was only interested

22 in my family and what was going to happen to us.

23 In the other hangar, which was perhaps some

24 20 metres away from the first hangar, one of the people

25 who were dressed in the uniforms told me that there

Page 478

1 were some of my colleagues who had been put up there,

2 who had worked in the outpatients department. He took

3 me there, and I did indeed find one of my colleagues

4 there, who was also in the camp, Dr. Sadinlija,

5 Dr. Karovic, Seid Selimovic, and there were three

6 drivers from the same outpatients department, ambulance

7 drivers.

8 Q. Fine. Perhaps I could stop you there and ask

9 you, how long were you kept at Livade?

10 A. I was kept at Livade for four days. They

11 would let the women and children and elderly -- when we

12 came, when it was our turn, we asked, "Can we go?" and

13 they said yes. But when we were to actually leave and

14 go out, they said that me and my daughter could leave

15 but that my husband and my son could not. I then said,

16 on all three days, the first, second, and third day,

17 they said that I could -- I said that I would only

18 leave dead, that I wouldn't leave.

19 Q. All right. Just very briefly, while you were

20 at Livade, the ethnicity of the people that were there

21 with you in these hangars, were they all Muslims?

22 A. They were all Muslims, apart from one of my

23 neighbours who was a Serb, and another neighbour, he

24 was also a Serb; and there was one more who left very

25 quickly, he left the next day, he was also a Serb from

Page 479

1 Serbia. I know the two others, the first two; that is

2 to say, one man worked in the Maglic enterprise, I

3 think he was a forestry technician, and the other man,

4 I think, worked in one of the institutes -- an

5 insurance brokerage, something like that.

6 Q. While at Livade, did you see any injured

7 people?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. In particular, what type of injuries, and how

10 frequently?

11 A. I know that two Selimovic brothers were

12 brought in who were beaten up badly. One of them, his

13 eye had almost fallen out, and they were hardly able to

14 move. I don't know exactly what type of injuries they

15 were because they were in the other room and I was not

16 able to examine them personally. Nobody asked me to do

17 that, to help them in that way, and I didn't dare do

18 that on my own.

19 Another person was brought in, he was a

20 paramedic and his name was Enis Uzunovic. He was also

21 beaten up. How, I don't know, but he was barely able

22 to breathe, and he probably had some ribs broken.

23 There were others too whom I didn't know.

24 Q. Did you see these people before they were

25 beaten up and then afterwards, or were they just

Page 480

1 brought in in that condition?

2 A. I just saw them when they were brought in in

3 that condition.

4 Q. While you were at Livade, those three to four

5 days, were you fed and able to wash yourself, and were

6 there facilities provided?

7 A. No, there weren't. There were hangars

8 intended to function as warehouses. There were no

9 toilets. If you wanted to go to the toilet, you had to

10 go outside. And I apologise for having to say this.

11 If you wanted to empty your bowels, you would have to

12 be escorted by an escort. If you wanted to do anything

13 else, you would go upstairs to be excused. And, in

14 fact, this would all drain down and flow down into the

15 lower premises, because they weren't proper facilities.

16 Q. In any event, your stay at Livade stopped

17 after about four days. Tell us how that ended and

18 where you went from there?

19 A. One evening it was raining, it was very dark,

20 trucks came. We got into the trucks and they took us

21 off to the KP Dom, the penitentiary, which we all knew

22 from previous times in Foca.

23 Q. Yes. And when you say "we were taken," were

24 all the people in the room and your family included?

25 A. The whole of my family and the people from

Page 481

1 all the hangars were taken off that night to the KP

2 Dom.

3 Q. And what happened when you got there?

4 A. It was night-time. We were put into

5 different rooms. I was placed in a room together with

6 my family and several other people. There were eight

7 beds to a room, and there were 12 of us. In the other

8 room, there were about 50 beds and about 75 people. I

9 don't know what the situation was like in the third

10 room, because I didn't leave my own room, only when I

11 had to. But we had a toilet in the room and water as

12 well, and we had blankets. So that was, in fact, the

13 inventory that belonged to the penitentiary beforehand

14 that we found there when we got there.

15 Q. While there, did you see any of your previous

16 colleagues?

17 A. I saw Dr. Sadinlija again, Dr. Karovic as

18 well, Dr. Selimovic, and they brought in Dr. Torlak

19 later on. I thought he had come to examine somebody,

20 but he was brought in from hospital. He wore his

21 hospital uniform. He was a surgeon. I saw some other

22 paramedics whose names I don't remember.

23 Q. The names of these doctors you've just listed

24 for us, did you know their ethnicity?

25 A. Yes, I did. They were my colleagues. They

Page 482

1 worked in Foca. We all knew each other. Yes, I knew

2 who they were, what they were. I don't think any of

3 them, except Karovic perhaps, were any members of any

4 nationalist party.

5 Q. My question, though, is did you know whether

6 they were Serbs or Muslims?

7 A. I knew they were Muslims.

8 Q. All of them?

9 A. I apologise. I didn't hear the question.

10 Q. I'm sorry. All of those people that you

11 referred to, those doctors by name, were they all

12 Muslim doctors?

13 A. All of them were Muslims.

14 Q. And could you tell in what capacity were they

15 there? Were they sort of there, being sent there

16 against their will, like you were, or were they there

17 for other purposes, or could you tell?

18 A. When they brought us to Livade, the children

19 -- I'm sorry, Dr. Karovic, Dr. Sadinlija and

20 Dr. Selimovic, and three of those drivers from the

21 health centre were already there. They had been taken

22 from the outpatients' department to the hangars at

23 Livade.

24 Q. Were they imprisoned or were they just

25 doctors carrying out their profession as doctors to

Page 483

1 care for people imprisoned at the KP Dom?

2 A. No, they weren't doing their profession.

3 They were being held there as prisoners, just like I

4 was.

5 Q. I see. While there, did you see any people

6 -- by there, I am talking about KP Dom. Did you see

7 any injured people, and under what circumstances?

8 A. I saw several people who were injured and

9 brought to the KP Dom as injured people. While I

10 was there, I don't remember anybody having been beaten

11 there. I also remember two people who were very badly

12 injured. One of them was a Croat, his name was Kuno

13 Marinovic, and apart from his other injuries, his jaw

14 had been broken, and another man who was a tradesman,

15 his name was Munib Beco. And he was beaten up badly.

16 His back was all black and blue, so was his leg and so

17 on. I saw them once and didn't see them again.

18 Q. Were you asked to treat any of these people?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, how long did you stay at KP Dom?

21 A. Altogether, I myself and my two children were

22 there for ten days, and my husband was there for two

23 days longer. We left on the 24th of April and my

24 husband left on the 26th of April.

25 Q. And while you were still imprisoned in KP

Page 484

1 Dom, did you hear about what had happened to your

2 apartment, that is the apartment that you described

3 where you lived with your neighbours when you were

4 apprehended and detained?

5 A. I heard from the people who came that my

6 apartment was burnt the same day we were taken off to

7 the camp. This was on the 14th of April at about

8 2.00 p.m.

9 Q. And when you left on the 24th of April, did

10 you have an opportunity to go back to the area to see

11 whether, in fact, that was so?

12 A. You mean where my apartment was located?

13 Q. That is correct. I'm sorry if I wasn't

14 clear.

15 A. I didn't go there for several days. I went

16 to my colleague Sadinlija's apartment, and I stayed

17 there until I left Foca.

18 Q. You went to a colleague's apartment because

19 your own apartment had been burnt; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it was completely destroyed. When I

21 went later on, I went with a paramedic and somebody

22 from the police station. There were just ashes.

23 Nothing was left in my apartment, just ashes.

24 Q. After you and your family's release from KP

25 Dom, did you remain in Foca for a period of time?

Page 485

1 A. Yes, for two months.

2 Q. During those two months, did you go back to

3 work in a capacity as a doctor at any point?

4 A. As soon as I left the camp on the 25th, I

5 went back to the hospital and I worked there. But it

6 wasn't the kind of work that I did previously. There

7 weren't many patients there. And people didn't come.

8 For example, there were two of my colleagues there of

9 Serb ethnicity, and the situation turned to their

10 advantage rather than to mine. I had a great deal of

11 work before the war, but as relations were tense,

12 people might have trusted them more than they trusted

13 me. But I have always been a doctor and I'll always

14 remain a doctor and could be nothing else.

15 So I worked until the 20th of May. I went to

16 work, I did my work, but I received no salary.

17 When I was supposed to receive my salary, we

18 had already left the hospital because they said we

19 could no longer come to work. And I went to one of my

20 colleagues who lived near me. He was a Serb and he was

21 a good friend of mine. And I asked him what was going

22 to happen, "Where are our salaries?" And he said the

23 director had told him that their salaries had come from

24 Trebinje and we would get ours from Sarajevo. It was a

25 little strange, because we couldn't get our salaries

Page 486

1 from Sarajevo.

2 Q. You say you worked until the 20th of May, and

3 then you said, I think later on, words to the effect,

4 and I am paraphrasing, that you could no longer come to

5 work. Were you told you were no longer welcome to come

6 to work?

7 A. No. No. They told us, I don't know who gave

8 the orders of the officials, that the Muslim doctors

9 could no longer work in the hospital. And all of us

10 working there, and there were four male doctors, I was

11 alone, I was the only woman doctor, that we couldn't

12 work; either the doctors or the nurses, paramedics.

13 They received orders from some leadership organs, I

14 don't know from whom, but that's what we were told.

15 Q. So you were precluded from working any longer

16 after the 20th of May; is that correct?

17 A. We were not allowed to work.

18 Q. Yes. Now, while you were in Foca for the two

19 months or so after you were released on the 24th of

20 April, what can you tell us about what you saw about

21 the town of Foca itself? Could you tell us what had

22 happened to Muslim homes?

23 A. The Muslim homes, I know from the Donje Polje

24 area, because that's -- where I lived you could see

25 that area. And they were burnt. Mostly, most of the

Page 487

1 houses, I think two-thirds of the houses were burnt in

2 that settlement, which was called Donje Polje; the

3 Donje Polje settlement.

4 Q. Was that a Muslim settlement, largely?

5 A. Largely Muslim, although there were some

6 Serbian households as well, but there were -- there was

7 a greater ratio of Muslim houses.

8 Q. How about the mosques in town?

9 A. All the mosques in town were destroyed and

10 burnt.

11 Q. Were you familiar with the Aladza mosque?

12 A. Of course. Aladza was one of the oldest

13 mosques. I think it was built around 1555. It was

14 under UNESCO protection. I was in Foca when the

15 minaret was knocked down and, two days later I left

16 Foca. And that's when the rest of it was destroyed.

17 It was destroyed last.

18 Q. Now, while you were there, prior to your

19 leaving, what can you tell us about what was happening

20 to the Muslim population of Foca? Did they stay in

21 town or were they -- tell us about that.

22 A. The part of the population who stayed in town

23 couldn't leave until we had received permission and

24 permits to leave town. But the majority of the Muslim

25 male population was taken off to the camps.

Page 488

1 Q. In what kind of numbers?

2 A. I can't say exactly. I say most of them, but

3 I don't know. I don't know how many of them stayed in

4 town. I don't know how many were taken away. But I

5 know many families whose sons and husbands were taken

6 off to camp.

7 Q. All right. Now, you told us there were

8 restrictions on leaving, unless you had permits and

9 papers; is that correct? And I take it, eventually,

10 you and your family got permits, did you?

11 A. That's correct. I personally went to the

12 Municipal Assembly, to the Crisis Staff there, and

13 asked them, when the situation had deteriorated and we

14 were restricted, our movements were restricted, men

15 were restricted, although women were allowed to go out

16 to buy daily foodstuffs, we were not allowed to gather,

17 to make gatherings. People were not buried in

18 cemeteries, but were buried in plots around their

19 house. Telephones were cut off. There were no death

20 certificates published. And life was unbearable at

21 that time. And I personally went to the Crisis Staff,

22 I went myself and asked -- first of all, I had to go

23 because of my documents, because all our documents, our

24 family documents had been burnt, together with the

25 apartment. So we had no IDs or passports or any

Page 489

1 documents at all. So I had to look for a photographer

2 to take photographs of us, for us to be issued the new

3 documents.

4 And then I asked them to either let us leave

5 or to let us live like people, like human beings, or to

6 kill us, because living that way was very difficult.

7 So if you have to live in constant fear of your life,

8 then it's very difficult to get on with the business of

9 living. We were left without a job, we were not -- our

10 movements were restricted, we were not allowed to see

11 other people and make small gatherings, and it is very

12 difficult to live under those conditions.

13 Q. Do you know whether Muslim people were

14 entitled to medical treatment or medicines during the

15 period before you left?

16 A. It all depended on the individual working in

17 the outpatients' department. I know of several cases,

18 and I am going to quote some names. For example, Zuko

19 Beco, who was a very honest elderly citizen and ill, he

20 was allowed to leave from the KP Dom. And in the

21 outpatients' department the doctor on duty would not

22 prescribe any antibiotics for his lung condition

23 because he had pneumonia. And I brought him some

24 medicines.

25 I know others who would go to the

Page 490

1 outpatients' department and they weren't given any

2 medicines. But my colleagues from the hospital, who

3 worked together with us for many years, would send me

4 personally medicines. For example, they sent me

5 medicaments for my husband. And I think that was quite

6 normal.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: If I could just stop

8 there. Your Honours, I note the time. I can tell you,

9 I think I have another 20 minutes or so with this

10 witness, and I expect that perhaps we'll have to close

11 the screens to allow her to leave. If this is an

12 appropriate time for the break, I'm about to move into

13 a new area.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we shall break off and

15 resume our proceedings at 11.30 hours.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you stay in the

17 courtroom until after the Court leaves. Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can proceed.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness 33, we had left, just before the

23 break, to come to a new point that I'd like to bring

24 your attention to. I'd like you to think now about a

25 time of mid-June or thereabouts of 1992. Did something

Page 491

1 happen, or did you hear reports of something that

2 happened in a place called Cohodor Mahala?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was that?

5 A. I heard that in mid-June, I do not know the

6 exact date, a massacre happened there. I think about

7 27 -- about 27 persons were massacred, predominantly

8 women and children. I don't know whether there were

9 any men there at all. Allegedly, they were all in one

10 house because it was easier for them to be together.

11 And then a group came, a group of those who killed in

12 different ways. That's what I heard. I don't know

13 how, who, but I heard that there were about 27 women

14 and children that were killed there. Perhaps there

15 were some men too. I don't know.

16 Q. This place that I have named, Cohodor Mahala,

17 is that a part of Foca, is it near Foca, or exactly

18 what is that?

19 A. That's a part of Foca, by the River

20 Cehotina. It's on the other side of the Cehotina

21 River. It is a mixed settlement, mostly private

22 houses, but there were quite a few Serb and Muslim

23 houses there. The composition was mixed.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: With the assistance of the

25 usher, perhaps Exhibit 12/1, or my copy of it, may be

Page 492

1 shown. Thank you.

2 Q. If you can just use the pointer and show to

3 us approximately where in Foca this area, Cohodor

4 Mahala, or however you pronounce that, is.

5 A. The exact pronunciation is Cohodor Mahala.

6 Q. Cohodor Mahala. Thank you.

7 A. It is approximately opposite Livade, rather,

8 on the other side of the Cehotina River, on my

9 left-hand side. Livade is on the right-hand side and

10 Cohodor Mahala is on the left-hand side. As I'm

11 looking at it now, it's on my left-hand side.

12 Q. All right. For the purposes of the record,

13 you're shown Livade as number 10, and you've pointed to

14 an area --

15 A. Yes. I showed Livade, and Cohodor Mahala is

16 opposite Livade.

17 Q. The area you're pointing to with the pointer

18 is about an inch or so to the right of the number 11 on

19 the bottom right-hand corner of the map; is that

20 correct? Perhaps that's 15 centimetres or so. I use

21 inches.

22 A. Yes, that's it. Yes, that's Cohodor Mahala.

23 It says here on the map, it's been marked on this map.

24 Green letters. It says, "Cohodor Mahala."

25 Q. Thank you. Now --

Page 493

1 A. There's no number there, but the name is

2 written there.

3 Q. I understand that. The purpose of the

4 question is basically to ask you now what effect did

5 the rumour of this massacre have upon you and your

6 family in respect of concerns for your safety?

7 A. There was general fear among Muslim families,

8 that's quite natural. If that kind of a massacre

9 occurs in the town where you lived, these people

10 probably knew lots of these persons who were killed.

11 Then you could expect that to happen to your own

12 family; I could expect that to happen to my own family

13 or whoever. My family and I were greatly afraid.

14 Q. You've told us about you hearing about these

15 27 people being killed, or thereabouts. Did you also

16 know whether or not these people were Serbs or whether

17 they were Muslims?

18 A. All of them were Muslims, predominantly women

19 and children, as far as I heard.

20 Q. Were there any other warnings or concerns

21 that were communicated to you and/or your family which

22 prompted you to want to leave Foca? Don't name any

23 names of the people who may have told you these

24 things.

25 A. No, I don't want to do that. I personally

Page 494

1 was told by the son of a Serb friend of mine, a lady

2 friend of mine, that one evening they would come to

3 kill my husband. When I asked why, the answer was -- I

4 mean, I said, "Why? Why? He's not to be blamed for

5 anything," and the answer was, "Well, for the purpose

6 of ethnic cleansing, because he's a Muslim."

7 Q. I understand that your husband was released

8 on the 26th of April of 1992. While he was on release,

9 was he required to report in anywhere or to stay in

10 touch with authorities?

11 A. He had to report twice a day to the police

12 office in charge, at a given hour; in the morning and

13 in the afternoon. I don't know who was there or who

14 these persons were, but he was humiliated in different

15 ways, even physically mistreated.

16 Q. I understand that. You've already told us

17 about your visits to the authorities in order to

18 attempt to get release permits or permission to leave;

19 is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Were you finally permitted to leave Foca?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In the course of that, did you actually

24 obtain some certificates or documents which indicated

25 that you and your family were permitted to leave?

Page 495

1 A. We got certificates from the police station

2 in charge that we could leave Foca. Every member of my

3 family got an individual certificate, and we also had

4 to sign documents saying that we left all our property

5 to the Serb republic.

6 Q. Were you not allowed to take any of your

7 possessions with you?

8 A. We didn't have anything. We left wearing

9 other people's clothes, with borrowed money, because

10 our apartment was burned. When we went to the camp. I

11 already mentioned that. We didn't have a thing.

12 Q. Nevertheless, you had to sign a certificate

13 or some document indicating that you were leaving, and

14 leaving all your possessions, whatever those may be,

15 behind, and leaving them to the Serb republic? Do I

16 understand that correctly?

17 A. Yes. The house of my parents is in Foca. It

18 belongs to my sister and myself. It was not burned.

19 It is in a part of Donje Polje. I have a house that is

20 under construction, that we started building, I don't

21 know exactly which year that is, in the Aladza

22 settlement. It was not completed, only the roof was

23 placed on it, but as far as I know, the house is still

24 there. We also have our own garage that we used while

25 we lived there.

Page 496

1 Q. And you had to sign over entitlement to those

2 things as well? Is that what you are telling us?

3 A. We signed a piece of paper, and what that

4 piece of paper said, to tell you the truth, I wasn't

5 really interested in that. I was interested in leaving

6 as soon as possible and reaching freedom.

7 Q. And without naming where you went -- please

8 do not say so -- do I understand that you and your

9 family actually left Foca and went to a foreign

10 country?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. I am going to now, with the assistance of the

13 usher, very briefly show you some documents, which I am

14 only asking you to identify. And if you can identify

15 them, we'll mark them as exhibits in these

16 proceedings.

17 First of all, there are two copies of this

18 document that I am going to hand out, one for you to

19 look at, and one for the Registry, please. Please do

20 not put this on the ELMO, because it contains personal

21 and private information that we want to maintain

22 confidential.

23 If you would look to the second page, just

24 turn over the page. Is this a document which indicates

25 that -- the page you are looking at does not have a

Page 497

1 number, but is this a document referring to your

2 husband? Do not name him, please.

3 A. That's correct. That's it.

4 Q. All right. And this is the document that

5 says he was under obligation to report daily to the

6 police station of the Serbian municipality of Foca?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And this is the document which shows that he

9 was released from KP Dom, where he was detained from

10 the 16th to the 26th of April 1992; is that correct?

11 A. Mistake. From the 14th until the 26th.

12 Because we were all taken together on the 14th of

13 April. We were released on the 24th, and he was

14 released on the 26th of April.

15 Q. I understand that your recollection differs

16 with what's written on the document. But does the

17 document bear the date the 16th?

18 A. Yes, underneath -- sorry. Sorry. Underneath

19 there's a correction. It says the 14th of April.

20 There is not a stamp there, but that is correct. Those

21 are the correct dates, from the 14th of April until the

22 26th of April.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Might that be marked as Exhibit 39 in these

25 proceedings, please.

Page 498

1 And while you are looking at the document

2 still, Witness, there are signatures on that document

3 and a seal. Can you tell under whose authority this

4 certificate was given? Was it on behalf of the crisis

5 management team of the Serbian municipality of Foca?

6 A. This was issued by the police station of

7 Foca.

8 Q. And on the right-hand side there is another

9 signature. Is that the crisis management team of the

10 Serbian municipality of Foca?

11 A. I'm sorry. This pertains to the release from

12 prison. One is the crisis staff of the Serbian

13 municipality of Foca and the other one is the

14 authorised person of the Serb police station of Foca.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE HUNT: This has already been conceded

17 as authentic, has it not?

18 MR. RYNEVELD: It has.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Then why do we need to do it

20 through the witness as well?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Out of an abundance of

22 caution, but Your Honour is absolutely correct. I

23 wanted to just verify that this is the document --

24 JUDGE HUNT: Let's just get on with it.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you. I will do

Page 499

1 so.

2 Q. For the benefit of the Court, I am next going

3 to ask the witness to look at Exhibit 40.

4 Two copies of that, Mr. Usher.

5 Again, looking at the second of the page of

6 this document, which is in Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian,

7 does this refer to your husband -- please don't say his

8 name -- and is this document giving permission to leave

9 Foca on the 27th of June 1992?

10 A. Yes. Yes. That is the document that was

11 given to my husband in order to leave Foca.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Exhibit 40, please.

13 Turning next to 41. Is that a similar permit

14 referring to your -- referring to you? Is that your

15 permit, Witness 33?

16 A. Yes. Yes. That is the permit issued in my

17 name, the same date, the same signature. Yes.

18 Q. And again, this allows you to leave the

19 following day that you received this; allows you to

20 leave on the 27th of June?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. That was 41, for the record.

23 Turning next to 42. Mr. Usher, two copies,

24 please.

25 Is this the exit permit for your son?

Page 500

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Again, same date, same people. Thank you

3 very much.

4 A. The same date, the same persons, taken the

5 same day.

6 Q. Thank you. That's 42. And the final

7 document, 43. Is this document, is that basically an

8 exit permit for your daughter to leave?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Might that be marked as Exhibit 43, please.

11 Prior to the war, Witness 33, did you know

12 Zoran Vukovic?

13 A. No, I did not.

14 Q. Okay. Do you know who Miroslav Stanic is?

15 A. I knew him personally. He was the president

16 of the local SDS. That's a nationalist party.

17 Q. Is that the Serbian nationalist party or --

18 A. Serbian. If we were to translate this, SDS,

19 it is the Serb Democratic Party. That is the

20 translation, the Serb Democratic Party.

21 Q. And did you say that he was the president of

22 that party? Did you know?

23 A. He was the president of that party.

24 Q. Do you know if he was president of the War

25 Presidency in Foca as well?

Page 501

1 A. As far as I know, he was president of the War

2 Presidency also.

3 Q. And do you know what --

4 A. In Foca.

5 Q. Do you know what position, if any, he had

6 with the Crisis Committee in Foca?

7 A. No. No. I don't know. I couldn't say.

8 Q. These functions that we are talking about,

9 the presidency, were those civilian functions?

10 A. The president of the SDS, of the Serb

11 Democratic Party, that is a civilian function, whereas

12 the president of the War Presidency, if that's what you

13 asked me, is also a civilian function, I think. I

14 don't know. Prodanovic, who is an expert in these

15 matters, will be able to explain it better than me.

16 Q. Do you know who Cosovic was?

17 A. Who?

18 Q. Branislav Cosovic?

19 A. Cosa. I heard of him, but I don't know him.

20 Q. You don't know him, but did you know what his

21 function was, or did you hear what his function was?

22 A. I heard that he was head of the military

23 police. But that's what I heard, I'm not sure of

24 that.

25 Q. All right. You mentioned in your evidence

Page 502

1 some other names. Again, please pardon my

2 pronunciation, but I think you mentioned in your

3 evidence a Mr. Ostojic.

4 A. I did.

5 Q. Who was he?

6 A. He was the Minister of Information in the

7 Government or Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he

8 was a member of the Republican SDS. He is from Foca,

9 and he spent a lot of time in Foca during these

10 events.

11 Q. I see. And I think you mentioned a

12 Mr. Cancar, is it?

13 A. He's from Foca, a lawyer. I know him

14 personally as well. He held an important post in the

15 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he was also in the

16 SDS. I don't know what his function in the SDS was,

17 though.

18 Q. I believe you also mentioned a

19 Mr. Maksimovic.

20 A. I did. I know him personally. We used to be

21 friends. He was a professor at the Faculty of

22 Philosophy at the University of Sarajevo. He was

23 president of the Club of MPs, in the Assembly of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the MPs of the SDS, and he was a

25 professor at the Faculty of Philosophy. He came to

Page 503

1 Foca often during these events, and also before these

2 events, these events that occurred in Foca.

3 Q. All right. Now, before you left Foca, you

4 told us that you had heard a number of things that had

5 occurred. Did you hear anything about rape camps or

6 brothels in the Foca area?

7 A. I heard about individual rapes at persons'

8 homes. I heard about Partizan, but I didn't know

9 anything about it; I didn't know who was there or who

10 remained there. People talked about it, but I found

11 out more later from the newspapers and from other mass

12 media, when I left Foca, more than while I lived there

13 myself.

14 Q. I see. Again, don't tell us where you went,

15 but you were permitted to leave after the 26th of

16 June. Did you leave immediately or did you stay for a

17 little while longer?

18 A. I left immediately.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Excuse me. This was 1992.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: 1992, that's correct, yes.

22 Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Very briefly, I just have a couple of

24 follow-up questions now, I've done the bulk of my

25 examination-in-chief. But I wanted to show the

Page 504

1 witness, with the aid of the audiovisual people, about

2 a one-minute clip of the BBC report, and I want the

3 witness to watch that -- it's now Exhibit 24, I

4 believe, the video clip to which I'm referring -- and

5 see if she can give us assistance about which houses --

6 or what the area is that is shown.

7 Are you able to do that for us,

8 Mr. Audiovisual? I think he's on the phone.

9 [Videotape played]

10 A. This is Prijeka Carsija, what you're showing

11 me now.


13 Q. Actually, I'm going to let you watch this,

14 and then we'll back it up and I'll ask you to comment

15 on it on the second time through.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you rewind that and play

17 that again for us, and we'll let the witness speak as

18 she recognises certain things. But before she does,

19 I'm going to ask a couple of preliminary questions.

20 Q. First of all, do you recognise any of the

21 areas in the footage you've just seen on the monitor?

22 A. It's a bit difficult to recognise buildings

23 that are on fire; perhaps I'm also upset. But I think

24 that near the place where I was, close to the clinic,

25 there was an elementary school as well, and this is an

Page 505

1 area that I'm very familiar with. But now whether it

2 is that area or not, well ...

3 Q. All right.

4 A. It's been a lot of years, many years.

5 Q. Yes. Can you watch the video again and

6 comment on if you recognise any building or if you're

7 able to tell us anything about it.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you play it again,

9 please, sir.

10 [Videotape played]


12 Q. First of all, do you recognise that area? If

13 not, that's --

14 A. I know it, but it's hard for me to say

15 precisely. I know this. This is Prijeka Carsija, I

16 know that very well. But where the houses are very

17 close to one another, it's a bit more difficult for

18 me.

19 Q. That's fine. Thank you very much.

20 Now, in your evidence, when you were talking

21 about the 14th of April, when you and your family were

22 taken away from your apartments to Livade, I'm not sure

23 whether I asked you who it was that took you away.

24 What kind of people were taking you away? Were they

25 soldiers or policemen, or could you tell?

Page 506

1 A. I don't know who took us away. These persons

2 were wearing military uniforms, olive-grey, or

3 camouflage uniforms, but they all had these mask caps.

4 Many of them addressed me as "Doctor," so they knew me,

5 but I don't know who that was. They were local people,

6 judging by their dialect, because they spoke exactly

7 the same way I do.

8 Q. But were they armed? Did they have weapons

9 with them?

10 A. They had some kind of light rifles, I don't

11 know anything about these things, but it wasn't any

12 kind of heavy armaments. I am not very good at this.

13 I don't know what kind of rifles these were, but they

14 didn't use them. They did have weapons, short rifles,

15 but I don't know what they are called.

16 Q. I'm not asking for specifics. Did you think

17 they were soldiers, for example?

18 A. I don't think they were soldiers. I think

19 they belonged to paramilitary formations. There's one

20 thing I can say: I only had direct contact with

21 soldiers when I was at the KP Dom, and they were

22 soldiers from the Uzice Corps.

23 Q. Because I don't know what that is, perhaps

24 you could let us know what the Uzice Corps is.

25 A. The Uzice Corps is a military unit that

Page 507

1 belonged to a town called Uzice, and that is why it was

2 named the Uzice Corps.

3 Q. Okay. Was that town far away?

4 A. It belongs to Serbia; it's near the border

5 with Bosnia.

6 Q. And these people were at the KP Dom in Foca.

7 A. They came to the KP Dom at Foca to see who

8 the detainees were. I don't know what kind of actions

9 they participated in in town. But one day, when they

10 came to register us, and when I said that I was a

11 doctor, one of them stopped and said, "Oh, where did

12 you study?" and then I said that I studied in Belgrade,

13 and then he said, "You probably know a lot of our

14 doctors from Uzice." I did know quite a few of these

15 colleagues, and then I mentioned some of them, and he

16 said, "Yes, yes," like, you're right. "My wife is a

17 nurse." So that was it, that was the end of that

18 conversation. But they themselves said that they were

19 from Uzice and that they belonged to that corps.

20 Q. Okay. Just a couple of other questions to

21 clarify some of the answers you gave in earlier

22 testimony.

23 You told us about going to Livade and you

24 told us about the two rooms you went into. I don't

25 know if I asked you how many people you estimate were

Page 508

1 being detained in Livade altogether while you were

2 there. I think you said 100 to 120, but was that the

3 people from your apartment block, or was that

4 altogether, that you could see?

5 A. That is the total number of people I saw

6 there.

7 Q. Okay. And when you got to KP Dom, are you

8 able to give us any idea how many people were there in

9 detention?

10 A. There were many more people there. The KP

11 Dom is an enormous building and people were distributed

12 in rooms. I just knew the ones that were in the room I

13 was placed in, and perhaps if we would meet at lunch or

14 breakfast, then I would recognise some of the people.

15 But how many were there, I couldn't say. I know that

16 the number increased daily.

17 Q. When you were taken to Livade, did you see

18 anyone being taken away for beatings while you were

19 there?

20 A. Organised beating, taken off to beatings,

21 that did not exist. But there was a guard who was

22 known for that. What he would do was go to a room,

23 bring out a person from the room. He had one of these

24 stockings over his head and he would beat the man up.

25 And then he would, when somebody came across him doing

Page 509

1 this, he would return the people to the room. He did

2 this on his own initiative, while he was doing his

3 guard shift.

4 Q. I see. Now, we've also made reference to the

5 Aladza neighbourhood. Was that a Muslim neighbourhood

6 in general, or was it a mixed ethnic neighbourhood, or

7 was there a predominant Muslim population there?

8 A. Aladza had apartment blocks and settlements

9 with a mixed population. In the private houses in

10 Aladza, the population was predominantly Muslim, rather

11 than Serbian. Another settlement opposite Aladza, on

12 the opposite side by the stadium, there was -- its name

13 -- I can't remember its name exactly, but it was

14 predominantly Serb inhabited. I can't remember the

15 name of that settlement, but it was above the stadium.

16 Q. Is it your evidence that the Muslims largely

17 lived in the private houses and the Serbs were more in

18 apartment blocks? Did I understand you to say that, or

19 is that an overgeneralisation of what you just told us?

20 A. Well, let me put it this way. If somebody

21 was able to build his own private house, lived in it,

22 but most -- both Serbs and Muslims lived in apartment

23 buildings, although there were quite a number of those

24 who had their own private houses on both sides.

25 Q. In the video clip we saw, we saw mostly

Page 510

1 private homes on fire. Would you agree with that?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think that is a proper

3 question, Mr. Ryneveld.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine. I'll withdraw the

5 question. Thank you.

6 Q. Now, you are familiar with the Foca or the

7 Aladza Secondary School?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you pass by there, or did you stop there

10 along the way in any one of your trips?

11 A. During those occurrences or do you mean prior

12 to them?

13 Q. During the occurrences that you told us

14 about, from being apprehended, between the 14th of

15 April and, I suppose, until you got to KP Dom.

16 A. On the 14th of April, when they took us away

17 to Livade, we made a line, two-by-two, with guards

18 going on each side of us, carrying guns and in military

19 uniforms, and we passed by the secondary school centre

20 because it was on our route towards Livade. In front

21 of the secondary school centre there were quite a

22 number of soldiers wearing different uniforms. For

23 example, some of them would be wearing black uniforms

24 with black hats, other people wore red berets. Some of

25 them had white bands around their arms. All I know is

Page 511

1 that at one point, and I was very scared by this, I

2 heard them say, "Take these balijas to one side. We'll

3 settle with them quickly and then they can flow down

4 the river."

5 I don't know what kind of army that was and

6 to which formations it belonged, but that's what

7 happened.

8 Q. What are balijas?

9 A. Balija is the derogatory term for Muslim.

10 Q. I see. One final question. When you talked

11 about KP Dom, I believe in your evidence you referred

12 to it as a camp. Why did you call it a camp? Was it

13 guarded by soldiers or how did you refer to it as a

14 camp?

15 A. There was a difference. I can't tell you in

16 precise terms, but the difference between a camp and

17 the KP Dom lay in the fact that two camp people were

18 taken who were -- taken from their apartments,

19 captured. Some were taken from their apartments and

20 brought there, not somebody serving a sentence. They

21 were taken forcibly. Whereas the KP Dom was a

22 penitentiary where people were placed after having

23 attended Court proceedings and trials and went there to

24 serve their sentences, once they had been convicted.

25 Q. So what was before a penitentiary is now

Page 512

1 being used as a detention place, and you called it a

2 camp; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I just check with my

5 colleagues, but I think that was my last question, but

6 I may have overlooked something.

7 It seems as though I've covered the

8 territory. Thank you. Those are my questions.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Any cross-examination?

10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

11 Honours.

12 [Interpreter's Note: The witness uses the

13 familiar second-person singular to address

14 counsel]

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

16 Q. Witness 33, you've said that you worked in

17 the hospital, which belonged to the Regional Medical

18 Centre. Can you tell us, please, how many

19 municipalities did this Regional Medical Centre cater

20 for?

21 A. Foca, Gorazde, Cajnice, Visegrad, and Rudo,

22 and later on Kalinovik, which means six municipalities.

23 Q. In all these municipalities, that is to say,

24 in those towns, did all those towns have medical

25 centres which formed the Regional Medical Centre?

Page 513

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you tell us, please, who was the

3 director of the Regional Medical Centre?

4 A. The director of the Regional Medical Centre

5 was Dr. Lovoturs.

6 Q. Could you tell us, please, what ethnicity he

7 was?

8 A. He was a Muslim.

9 Q. Could you tell us, who was the director of

10 the health centre?

11 A. You mean in Foca?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Avdo Sedinlija.

14 Q. What ethnicity was he?

15 A. He was a Muslim.

16 Q. Could you tell us, please, who the directors

17 were of the institutions in the towns of Visegrad,

18 Gorazde and so on, if you remember?

19 A. In Foca, the director of the hospital was

20 Dr. Sekul Stanic; in Cajnice it was Dusko Kornjaca.

21 Q. They are Serbs?

22 A. Yes, they are. In Kalinovik there was also a

23 Serb; I don't remember his name. In Gorazde it was a

24 Muslim; I don't remember his name. In Rudo it was a

25 Serb; I can't remember his name because a lot of years

Page 514

1 have gone by.

2 Q. Very well. It's not important.

3 A. And there is one more place that I mentioned.

4 Q. Rogatica?

5 A. No, Rogatica did not belong to our region.

6 Q. What about Visegrad?

7 A. Visegrad did, but I don't know who the

8 director was there.

9 Q. In the composition of the Regional Medical

10 Centre there was also the Foca pharmacy?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us who the director of the

13 pharmacy was?

14 A. You mean the municipal pharmacy?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Will you agree with me that the director of

18 the pharmacy was Amra Celik?

19 A. Perhaps. Probably, yes.

20 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that she was

21 a Muslim?

22 A. Yes, she was.

23 Q. Do you know how many employees worked in the

24 Foca hospital?

25 A. Five hundred and something. I don't know the

Page 515

1 exact number. Do you want to ask me the ratio of the

2 Serbs and Muslims?

3 Q. Unfortunately, yes.

4 A. Well, I was never interested in that. I

5 never knew that, and I don't know it today either.

6 Q. But do you allow for the possibility that it

7 was perhaps 50/50, half/half --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, wait for the

9 witness. I know you are speaking the same language, so

10 it's very tempting.

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,

12 Your Honours.

13 A. I don't know. I think there were perhaps

14 more Serbs working there than others, but I was never

15 interested in that, nor did I ever look at statistical

16 data in that regard.

17 Q. Could you tell us, please, who the heads of

18 the departments, hospital departments were?

19 A. Well, let us take them in order.

20 Q. I suppose that's an easier question for you.

21 A. Yes. Surgery, there was a Serb; gynaecology,

22 a Muslim; paediatrics, a Muslim; infective diseases

23 department, Muslim; transfusions, Serb; internal

24 disease department, a Serb; pulmonary department, a

25 Serb; neuropsychiatry, a Muslim; ear, nose, and mouth,

Page 516

1 a Muslim. Perhaps I've left out a department. Let me

2 see. Rehabilitation department, that was a Serb too.

3 Q. Tell me, were you the head of a department?

4 A. I mentioned myself. I was the head of the

5 paediatrics department.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you. Since when did you

7 head the paediatrics department? When did you come to

8 head it?

9 A. From 1976, when I did my specialised course.

10 Q. 1976?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us, please, the exact moment

13 -- exactly where you were when the conflict broke out?

14 A. I have already said that I was on the way to

15 work on the 8th, to take my family to the hospital,

16 Relja and myself. You know Relja very well, the

17 colleague that I mentioned. My family members didn't

18 want to. I stayed at home, but Relja took his wife and

19 child to the hospital.

20 Q. I mean when the shooting started, were you at

21 home?

22 A. Yes, I was at home. I didn't go out

23 anywhere. Throughout the time that there was shooting,

24 from the 8th to the 14th, I never went out anywhere.

25 Q. I should like to ask the usher to show the

Page 517













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14 English and French transcripts












Page 518

1 witness a map, which is Prosecution Exhibit 12/1, for

2 the witness to be able to look at the map and locate

3 her apartment building to show us where she lived.

4 A. I don't think the map has it. It's across

5 the road from the Hotel Zelengora, right opposite the

6 hotel across from Cehotina. I'm not sure that it's on

7 the map.

8 Q. But just to give us a rough idea of where

9 your house was.

10 A. Hotel Zelengora is number 5 on the map, and I

11 lived opposite the Zelengora Hotel, right opposite the

12 bridge. It was parallel, my building was parallel to

13 the bridge.

14 Q. Looking at that place, can you show us the

15 route to the hospital? Which route do you take on your

16 way to the hospital, and what settlement do you pass?

17 A. Well, I would cross this bridge and this

18 would take me to opposite Zelengora Hotel, which would

19 be to the right-hand side. I would go left, where

20 there was a bus which waited for us to take us to work,

21 and would take us back from work, in front of the

22 delicatessen shop. It would once again pass over the

23 bridge and go down towards my house, along the Drina

24 River, underneath the KP Dom.

25 Q. As far as I was able to note, you were

Page 519

1 showing Cehotina, pointing to Cehotina.

2 A. That's wrong. Yes, that wasn't correct on my

3 part. Number 5 is the Zelengora Hotel. Opposite is my

4 apartment building. And I would go across the bridge

5 and cross over to the opposite side, and in front of

6 the delicatessen store, you know where the delicatessen

7 store was, that was where the bus waited for us to go

8 to the hospital. So I would go along the Drina Valley,

9 that road there, underneath the KP Dom, and I would go

10 to the hospital that way.

11 Q. Yes. I am quite -- I know all of that. But

12 for purposes of the other people in the courtroom, you

13 showed -- you pointed to the left-hand side of the

14 Drina River. That's probably a mistake on your part,

15 because to reach the hospital you would take the

16 right-hand side, the right bank of the River Drina.

17 A. Yes, you are quite right. I was pointing to

18 the wrong side. I don't think it's that important.

19 I'm just -- I'm describing the left bank and pointing

20 to the right bank. Well, yes, I'm a bit tired and so

21 on.

22 Q. Well, we don't mind. It's just to put things

23 straight. That's all.

24 Which settlement did you pass to get to the

25 hospital?

Page 520

1 A. I passed through Donje Polje, the KP Dom, and

2 then I don't know what that other part down there was

3 called. I think it was Proleterskih Brigada Street.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. You said that when

5 you were on the way to -- on your way to the hospital,

6 on that critical day, according to your statement, that

7 you passed by two barricades.

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Can you tell us where those checkpoints

10 were.

11 A. One was at the Cafe Bor, Bor Cafe, and the

12 other one was by the Drina bridge.

13 Q. Could you describe the barricades for us?

14 What were they composed of?

15 A. Well, just two people there and a truck,

16 which was placed across the road, but nobody stopped

17 us, asked us anything. That's what I said in my

18 statement.

19 Q. Does that mean that that obstacle did not

20 allow vehicles to pass?

21 A. Yes, probably. Pedestrians were able to pass

22 by quite freely.

23 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether you know

24 who had erected those barricades?

25 A. No.

Page 521

1 Q. In the statement you made here today, you

2 said that that part of the settlement was populated

3 mostly by the Muslim population?

4 A. Yes, that's right. Except for the apartment

5 buildings across the road, which were mixed, where

6 there was a mixed population.

7 Q. Will you agree with me that it was the

8 Muslims who set up those barricades?

9 A. Well, it's like this. I can't agree with you

10 or with myself. I don't know. I have absolutely no

11 idea who put up those barricades, nor did I know any of

12 the people at the barricades. I didn't know what was

13 happening at all or why this was -- why these obstacles

14 were placed there, because it was the very beginning of

15 everything. I went back by car, a vehicle from the

16 hospital, an ambulance, and I was able to pass by

17 freely. And there was no problem there until the

18 25th. When I left the camp I went to the hospital in

19 the same bus that I'd always taken to the hospital.

20 Q. Could you explain what those people at the

21 barricades did? Did they ask for your credentials, for

22 your IDs?

23 A. No, nobody asked us anything. We just passed

24 by quite naturally, just in the same way that we

25 reached the barricades. We just passed by them and

Page 522

1 went along our way. I said, even now I don't know who

2 was there.

3 Q. What was their behaviour towards people they

4 didn't know? Do you know that?

5 A. I have absolutely no idea, because those of

6 us who went to the hospital, to do our work there, they

7 probably knew us all and nobody asked us anything. And

8 when we took the ambulance back, nobody stopped us at

9 all, we were able to pass by quite freely in the

10 ambulance. And I never went along that road again.

11 Q. Can you tell us, in your opinion, what the

12 purpose of these barricades were, if they had just been

13 placed at that particular point, but without anybody

14 being stopped or any IDs or particulars asked for?

15 A. Well, to be truthful, I really don't know.

16 Quite simply, I was surprised, but I didn't think about

17 it much. And later on, when the shooting started, then

18 I really didn't understand a thing, nor did I know

19 anything about anything. I didn't know the purpose of

20 the barricades or who had erected them or who manned

21 the barricade, and I have already said that I lived in

22 Foca -- I lived the kind of life in Foca that was

23 worthy of man's dignity, worthy of man.

24 But what happened overnight, it is very

25 difficult to describe. And particularly for us, it's

Page 523

1 difficult for me and I'm sure it's difficult for you

2 too personally, who lived as honest, hard-working

3 citizens, it was very difficult to discuss a situation

4 of this kind; particularly those of us who lived there

5 together, and we'd come face to face and who would talk

6 to each other, say hello to each other. And I'd like

7 it to be like that again. I'm not one of those people

8 who don't want to return to my hometown, but it is very

9 hard for me. And none of the people that I helped a

10 great deal, and I'm sure you know this very well, and I

11 know that all the people there -- this whole group of

12 people know, why did nobody tell me? My children are

13 children too. I loved my children, just as everybody

14 else loved their children. My children were big, they

15 were grown-up --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness 33, can you just answer

17 the questions put to you? All right? We shall move

18 much faster that way.

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Yes, I do understand, Witness. On that

21 particular day, did something happen which would

22 indicate to you that a conflict could be expected?

23 A. As soon as I arrived, I saw that many of the

24 workers had brought their families with them. So I

25 didn't know what was going on in the hospital on the

Page 524

1 8th, because on the 8th, I didn't actually work, I

2 wasn't on duty. I just went to the hospital and saw

3 people bringing their families. I returned with my

4 colleague Dimjan. My family did not want to go to the

5 hospital, so I stayed on in my apartment.

6 Q. Could you tell us how many children you had

7 at your paediatric department and whether there were

8 any abandoned children?

9 A. Yes, there were abandoned children. I think

10 there were four abandoned children at that particular

11 time.

12 Q. And the total number?

13 A. Well, perhaps there were some 30 children in

14 my department.

15 Q. Could you tell me, please, whether, among

16 those abandoned children, there were any Muslim

17 children?

18 A. Yes, there were. There was a small boy

19 called Dzudarija, whose mother had died at childbirth,

20 and on the 28th of June, he was to celebrate his third

21 birthday. Later on, I heard that he was exchanged in

22 Gorazde, in October or November.

23 There was another girl from Rogatica. She

24 was born with some deformities of the hand and foot,

25 and her family wouldn't accept her, wouldn't take her

Page 525

1 in. What happened to this poor child, I don't know.

2 Q. You showed us the location of your apartment

3 building, where you lived. Could you tell us -- I know

4 this is difficult, but could you tell us how many

5 Muslim flats there were and how many others?

6 A. About the same number, Croats and Serbs; the

7 same number of apartments, more or less, roughly

8 speaking.

9 Q. Let me remind you that you said in your

10 statement that you gave to the investigator from the

11 OTP that the Serbs knew full well which apartments they

12 were shooting at. Do you still stand by that

13 statement?

14 A. Well, some of them stayed on in their flats.

15 Their wives would cook lunch and their children would

16 be in bed, reading books. So this makes you a little

17 suspicious, and you're prone to think that they knew

18 which apartments they were targeting. So I had my

19 doubts.

20 Q. Did you know Vukasin Skiljevica at all?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. What was he by ethnicity?

23 A. He was a Serb.

24 Q. Where does he live?

25 A. Below my own apartment.

Page 526

1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you know the

2 Jeftan Radovic family?

3 A. They lived above me, on the floor above.

4 Q. Can you tell us whether you know what

5 happened to their apartments?

6 A. Their apartments were burnt, along with my

7 own, because the fire took over both storeys. But they

8 were not burnt to the ground.

9 Q. How do you know that? Were you present or

10 did you hear about it from somewhere?

11 A. Well, when I left the camp, I went into my

12 own flat, I saw it. And my director, Sekul Stanic,

13 gave Andjelko Perisic and another one wearing a

14 military uniform to escort me and to take me to my

15 apartment, and I entered my apartment. I know that the

16 Skiljevica, they tried to put out the fire, whereas in

17 the other one, the metal and glass were disintegrating,

18 and there was nothing in the apartment. I thought a

19 shell had fallen and perhaps that there were some

20 photographs left. What I miss most are my children's

21 photographs because they're irreplaceable; whereas

22 Jeftan's apartment and Vukasin's apartment were

23 partially damaged.

24 I didn't even say who set fire to my

25 apartment; I have no idea. It was set fire to, but who

Page 527

1 did this, I don't know. I wasn't there; I can't say.

2 Q. Did somebody set fire to it intentionally, or

3 was it set fire to during the fighting?

4 A. I don't know. I can't say either way. I

5 just do not know.

6 Q. Do you know whether there was any fighting

7 going on around your building?

8 A. As far as I know, there was fighting around

9 my building, because there was a lot of shooting there,

10 we heard a lot of this.

11 Q. Can you assume, or do you know, where the two

12 sides that were fighting were?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know. I did not leave

14 the building. I cannot say a thing about that.

15 Q. In your statement, the one you gave to the

16 investigators earlier on, you said, "In the evening of

17 the 12th of April, 1992, we could see from our

18 apartment that the part of town called Prijeka Carsija

19 was on fire. This same part of town was burned by the

20 Chetniks in the Second World War."

21 Were you in your apartment or in the

22 basement, because you were going --

23 A. Up and down.

24 Q. Yes. Up and down. Did you go to the

25 apartment when Prijeka Carsija was on fire?

Page 528

1 A. All of a sudden, we saw that the entire town

2 was illuminated. We were in the apartment because

3 there was no shooting now. So I don't know who set

4 fire to Prijeka Carsija. I did not leave the

5 building. I don't know who was shooting from where,

6 and with what, and who was involved in the fighting. I

7 am just saying one thing: I heard this, but I cannot

8 assert anything.

9 Q. Can you identify the houses that were on

10 fire? Whose houses were on fire?

11 A. When? When? At that time, at Prijeka

12 Carsija?

13 Q. Yes, when you said --

14 A. No way. No way. I don't think there were

15 many houses in the sense of homes in Prijeka Carsija.

16 There were shops there. I said that they were

17 primarily shops, and what was exactly on fire, that, I

18 don't know.

19 Q. Do you know Simo Aganovic?

20 A. You mean the one who had a pastry shop?

21 Q. I'm asking you this because of the shops in

22 Prijeka Carsija. If you don't know who owned these

23 shops that were burned down -- I mean, that's why I'm

24 putting this question to you.

25 A. Slavisa, I said that I saw Prijeka Carsija on

Page 529

1 fire, that there were Serb and Muslim shops there. I

2 don't know whose shops were burned down. I don't even

3 know who owned all of those shops there. And after

4 that, I never passed through that Carsija, so I can't

5 make any comments about that because I don't know about

6 it.

7 Q. Do you know where the Jugoplastika store was?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. Was it in that row?

10 A. It was opposite Mujo Moco's shoe shop, a bit

11 further up perhaps.

12 Q. Did I understand you correctly? Did it burn

13 down also?

14 A. I have no idea. I have no idea. I did not

15 pass there.

16 Q. Would you agree with me that the following

17 shops burned down in Prijeka Carsija, those owned by,

18 and now I'm going to mention the names: Asima

19 Aganovic, who was a Muslim by ethnicity; the

20 Jugoplastika store, which was owned by the Sunaric

21 family, who lived there upstairs; then the state-owned

22 facility of Lovoturs, owned by Serbs, and then the

23 premises were rented out; the goldsmith shop owned by

24 Halim Brajlovic; the premises of the Serb Orthodox

25 church, where candles were sold and supplies for

Page 530

1 burials; then also the warehouse of the 22nd of

2 December Company --

3 A. That was at the corner; right?

4 Q. Well, it was nearby. Then Mile Males'

5 house.

6 A. I know where Mile Males' house was.

7 Q. What ethnicity is he?

8 A. He's a Serb.

9 Q. Then the shop owned by Colpa.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who is a Muslim by ethnicity; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The cafe of Mensud Hadziahmetovic, who is a

14 Muslim by ethnicity. So do you agree with the order in

15 which I listed these shops that were presented as being

16 burned down.

17 A. Yes. Yes, I agree with that. I did not say

18 whose shop had burned down, who it belonged to, I

19 didn't say that for any one of these facilities. I

20 couldn't see that. I just saw the flames.

21 Q. I'm sorry. I'm not asking this because of

22 you, I'm asking it for other purposes.

23 A. Okay. I understand your point.

24 Q. Do you know Velizar Grusic?

25 A. Yes, well.

Page 531

1 Q. You know him well?

2 A. (redacted).

3 Q. (redacted)

4 A. (redacted)

5 Q. (redacted)

6 A. (redacted); the next

7 one was number 4. Perhaps it was Beogradska Street

8 number 6.

9 Q. So in your neighbourhood; is that right?

10 A. Yes, in my neighbourhood, near my building.

11 Q. Do you know that it burned down during those

12 days too?

13 A. Yes, I heard that it was torched.

14 Q. Did you know Milisav Kovacevic?

15 A. Yes, of course I did. I worked with him.

16 Q. What was he by ethnicity?

17 A. He was a Serb.

18 Q. Do you know --

19 A. That his house burned down? Yes, of course I

20 know that.

21 Q. Was his house separated from the other

22 houses?

23 A. No. No. It was up there in the

24 neighbourhood.

25 Q. I'm talking about the row of houses --

Page 532

1 A. Oh, you're talking about the Muslim and Serb

2 houses. Yes. Yes, it was within that row of houses,

3 yes.

4 Q. Do you know that on the 12th of April, or

5 around that day, an entire row of Serb houses burned

6 down, starting with Drago Plemic's house, Milisav

7 Kovacevic's house, Momo Kovac's house, Ilija Radovic's,

8 Milorad Krnojelac's.

9 A. I know about Milorad because he told me

10 himself. But the others, well ...

11 Q. Dzoja Pavlovic, Vasilije Radovic, and the

12 family of Brako Obradovic, that were all in one row.

13 A. I don't know about that because I did not

14 have any contact with anyone later, so I could not

15 discuss this. Ultimately, I was not interested in this

16 at all. These houses were on fire. I wasn't

17 interested in whose these houses were and what this

18 was. It was human lives that I cared about, regardless

19 of who was torching these houses.

20 I'm underlining one thing: Perhaps there was

21 an anathema on me because I was not a member of the

22 SDA. What they did to one another, I don't know. I

23 just know what I saw and what I experienced during

24 these days. I cannot say anything about the things

25 that I don't know about. There's nothing that I can

Page 533

1 claim for sure. I can only tell you about what I

2 experienced, what I saw, what I heard; whereas these

3 houses that you mentioned, well, listen to me, I was

4 supposed to go from one person's house to another and

5 to have coffee, and that's how I could have heard it.

6 And you know that we were not allowed to move around.

7 Yes, I did go out to do my shopping, and perhaps I saw

8 your mother in the street. But to go to someone's home

9 and to talk about this, no, I don't know about that. I

10 know about Milorad's house because he told me about it

11 personally. I wish I knew.

12 Q. I fully understand what you are saying, and I

13 know what you are trying to say, but the Honourable

14 Judges and all who are present here have to hear about

15 these things.

16 A. Well, they can't hear about it from me. I

17 did not mention any Muslim houses that burned down. I

18 just mentioned my apartment that burned down, because I

19 don't know which Muslim houses burned down. I know

20 that in Donje Polje houses were torched, but whose

21 houses? Which houses? For example, most of the houses

22 in Donje Polje were Muslim, in the neighbourhood that

23 is up there, further up. I know that there was Kovac

24 there and then this one person who worked in the

25 hospital, but I cannot make a differentiation in the

Page 534

1 sense of whose house burnt down and whose house burnt

2 down how. Because, after all, this does not belong to

3 my domain. I cannot claim for sure things I don't know

4 of.

5 I did not mention this or that burnt house.

6 I just mentioned my own burnt apartment. I mentioned

7 houses that were on fire. I cannot claim things I do

8 not know for sure. On either side, for that matter.

9 Q. Very well. We understand each other. You

10 said today that Serbs moved their families out after

11 the division?

12 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, I know that. All

13 my colleagues took their families away, either to

14 Herzegovina. For example, Ratko took his people to

15 Gacko, and then these other took their family to

16 Pluzine, then others to Montenegro, to Podgorica, some

17 to Serbia. That's the truth. That is the truth. Had

18 I not known this for sure, I would not have made such a

19 statement.

20 Q. You said that in Cohodor Mahala a massacre

21 had occurred. I heard about that.

22 A. Oh, you heard about that.

23 Q. Can you remember who you heard this from?

24 A. Well, to tell you the truth, even if I could,

25 I would not say, because, don't forget one thing, in

Page 535

1 Foca I had friends amongst the Serbs also.

2 Q. Yes, I know that. Of course.

3 A. So I don't want to say. There were quite a

4 few of those who wanted to help me, but who could not

5 help me.

6 Q. That's not why I asked. I asked because you

7 said that 27 civilians were killed.

8 A. That's what I heard, 27. I don't know.

9 Because if I said that I heard about it, I'm not

10 claiming that. I wasn't there. I didn't see it. I

11 cannot mention that in that way. I can only say what I

12 experienced, and what I saw. But I cannot claim for

13 sure what I did not see.

14 Q. Yes, that's the way I understood you.

15 A. For example, did you listen to my statement

16 carefully? I did not say that somebody mistreated me

17 or the members of my family. I was afraid because

18 there were threats addressed against my husband,

19 especially when what happened in Croatia happened. He

20 is from that area. I was afraid that they would come

21 there and kill him. These are very hard things. I had

22 two grown-up children with me, a son and a daughter. I

23 was afraid that something would happen to my children.

24 And I said that as well. That is what I resent the

25 most, as far as my colleagues are concerned, why

Page 536

1 then -- why didn't they tell me, "Well, look,

2 something is going to happen over here. Don't let your

3 children come here." Because everybody loves their

4 children. So I cannot claim for sure that which I

5 don't know.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, may we stick to

7 the case, please.

8 And Witness 33, you are here to answer

9 questions from the counsel and you are answering

10 questions to the Court. I know that when you are

11 speaking the same language you forget that you are

12 answering questions for the Court. This is not a

13 conversation between you and him.

14 A. I apologise.

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Now that we come to the word "camp." You

17 said that you were held in the camp and you tried to

18 explain what you meant by camp.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did I understand you correctly to say that

21 when you were in the camp, as you call it, that you had

22 somewhere to lie down; that you could go to the toilet;

23 that you had some covering to cover yourself with?

24 A. You mean the KP Dom?

25 Q. Yes. Did you have any food in the KP Dom?

Page 537

1 A. Yes, I had some food. It wasn't terribly

2 good, but we were given food, yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Did you have a house in Foca in

4 addition to your apartment?

5 A. Yes, I had a family home belonging to my

6 parents.

7 Q. Was that house burnt?

8 A. No, it was not

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your

10 Honours, I have no further questions of this witness.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Kolesar.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:

13 Q. In the course of my questioning, I will focus

14 on a different direction.

15 In the statement that you gave to the

16 investigators of the Tribunal, you stated that you

17 believed that in 19 -- sometime in 1990 a large meeting

18 was organised, rally, at which the local SDS party was

19 founded; that is to say, the party in Foca. I am

20 interested in the following. Could you tell me,

21 please, when and whether the SDA party was founded, the

22 Party of Socialist Democratic Action, which was the

23 party of the Muslims?

24 A. I said, to begin with, that I belonged to no

25 nationalist party. I was not a member of the SDA party

Page 538

1 either. But I think that these meetings were held in

2 the same week, one at the beginning of the week, the

3 other at the end of the week, but I did not attend

4 either gathering.

5 Q. Do you remember which the first gathering

6 was?

7 A. The first gathering was the SDA gathering.

8 Q. How was this party propagated? Do you

9 remember? You say you were not a member of either

10 party, so I don't suppose you were at this rally, but

11 you probably had occasion to see either on television

12 or -- and from your apartment, as far as I recall, you

13 could see this gathering?

14 A. You mean from my apartment? No, you couldn't

15 see the rally, and I wasn't interested in it either.

16 Q. Do you perhaps know how many, at this

17 founding meeting, how many people were present? How

18 many delegates? How many people? Do you know?

19 A. No, I don't know for either case.

20 Q. Do you allow for the possibility, and the

21 leaders of the SDA said that in the SDA promotion

22 meeting, there were between 100.000 and 150.000?

23 A. If I said that I did not belong to any

24 nationalist party, and if I say that the nationalist

25 parties brought about this state of affairs, and the

Page 539

1 situation that came to pass, then I also say that I was

2 not interested at all in how many people were present

3 on one side or the other side.

4 Let me state again, I was perhaps -- I don't

5 think the parties even liked me, because I didn't wish

6 to join either.

7 Q. You know that you are speaking under oath,

8 and I know that the Court is not, perhaps, interested

9 in whether you were interested yourself in one or other

10 party. But it is your duty to tell the Trial Chamber

11 here what you know about the relevant facts that I am

12 asking you about.

13 A. Well, I don't know how many people were

14 present. I can't say.

15 Q. On television you saw how this party was

16 promoted, the promotion rally that took place?

17 A. Well, it is almost eight years since that

18 event took place. So many things have happened in the

19 meantime that all those images have faded for me.

20 Q. I should now like to ask our audiovisual

21 department to show us tape 1, videotape 1, and to

22 provide copies for the Trial Chamber and the

23 Prosecution and Registry. It was a SDA meeting, rally,

24 which took place, and we did send in a copy of the

25 document to the OTP.

Page 540

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly

2 request a copy for the booths.

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] We should like

4 to propose that this be Exhibit D/1.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Do the interpreters have

6 copies, Mr. Kolesar? Mr. Kolesar, do the interpreters

7 have copies of this? The interpreters in the booths.

8 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Just for clarification, I

10 don't know what the purpose is of putting this document

11 to this witness. If it's to show that such a

12 Democratic Action Party took place, then I don't know

13 whether this is the proper witness to put this video

14 in, because this witness said she wasn't there, she

15 didn't see it, she didn't know about it. I'm not

16 trying to prevent this document from going in. I just

17 wonder whether this is an appropriate witness to do it

18 with.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Hasn't she agreed that she saw

20 it on television?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: If that's what we are going to

22 be seeing --

23 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I've assumed,

24 otherwise it would be totally irrelevant to this

25 witness.

Page 541

1 MR. RYNEVELD: That's my point. I must have

2 missed the witness's statement that she saw it on

3 television. I thought she said she didn't know about

4 it.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, she said she didn't

6 attend.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry. Then it's my

8 misunderstanding as to what the witness said, because I

9 just wondered whether this is an appropriate witness to

10 put this to. Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I would like

12 to clarify, this tape will be numbered D/1 and the

13 transcript D/1/1.

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The SDA

16 Democratic Action Party, a Muslim party, its members

17 are Yugoslav citizens belonging to the Muslim cultural

18 and historical circle. The need for the forming of

19 such a party exists for a long time. The idea took

20 shape in the democratic changes in Yugoslavia and

21 Europe. The idea to form the SDA was first made public

22 at the end of March 1990, at a press conference held in

23 Sarajevo. The founding assembly of this party was held

24 at the end of May, also in Sarajevo. The first SDA

25 convention, the party leadership, and bodies were

Page 542

1 elected and various documents adopted. Political,

2 economic, and cultural reports were approved, as well

3 as the party programme and Statute.

4 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic was elected party

5 president. The party was officially registered in June

6 as the First Democratic Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I apologise for

8 the poor quality of this video to one and all. May I

9 continue?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Do you know who the guests were at this rally

13 in Foca?

14 A. No. I could have seen it on television and

15 over the radio, but I wasn't interested in the party.

16 Q. Do you agree that they were the top party

17 leadership of the SDA, headed by Alija Izetbegovic, who

18 were present as guests at that rally? Did you hear

19 about that? Did you hear the question?

20 A. Yes, I know that he was present.

21 Q. Who else was there, together with Alija

22 Izetbegovic?

23 A. Well, let me tell you one thing. I don't

24 belong to the party. I'm not interested in the party.

25 I saw it on television, of course. I probably read

Page 543

1 about it in the papers, but I was against that, and I

2 was still against it.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Who else was there? Do you

4 know or you don't know. We don't want iteration,

5 please.

6 A. I don't know.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Do you know that at that rally plans were put

9 forward for the future of the SDA and plans to make

10 Foca the centre of the Islamic world?

11 A. It is very difficult for me to answer your

12 questions, because if you had listened to my testimony

13 previously, I said what kind of family I belonged to,

14 and I stated that I am against any kind of

15 nationalistic party, and against any other, any party

16 whatsoever. What was stated at this rally, the SDS

17 rally, all this to me is as alien as this rally.

18 Q. I should like to repeat that you are under

19 oath, and I am asking you these questions in order to

20 -- not to question your honesty, but to arrive at

21 certain information as to the occurrences in Foca

22 related to this particular case and related to the

23 founding rally of the SDA party. So I should like to

24 ask you to answer my questions, if you would.

25 A. I do not know what the party programme was.

Page 544

1 Q. Do you know that at that particular meeting

2 Ugljanin took the floor?

3 A. Yes, Stojan Ugljanin. Yes, I heard about

4 that.

5 Q. Do you know, in brief terms, the contents and

6 focus of his ideas?

7 A. No.

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

9 it is almost 1.00. I have another video to show you,

10 so is this a good time to break, perhaps, and to carry

11 on after the pause?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we shall break for lunch

13 and we shall carry on in the afternoon at 14.30 hours.

14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.












Page 545

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll continue the

3 proceedings.

4 Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak

6 into the microphone.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. The last question I put to you was whether

9 you know anything about the speech made by Sulejman

10 Ugljanin at the last SDA rally. If you recall, you

11 said that you didn't know.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And now I'm asking you the following: The

14 rally that was organised as the founding assembly of

15 the SDA for Foca, was that a promotion of the Bosniaks

16 or Muslims?

17 A. I don't know. I'm not -- there's something

18 wrong here.

19 [Technical difficulty]

20 A. I, indeed, was not involved in any kind of

21 political life, least of all any kind of nationalist

22 parties. I wasn't interested in the least bit in

23 that. The promotion of Bosniaks, Muslims, I don't

24 know. I don't know what that is, really. Is that the

25 same thing, or is being a Muslim a question of

Page 546

1 belonging to a certain religion and a Bosniak belonging

2 to a national group?

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I'm putting a question to you, and I kindly

5 ask you to answer that question, not to give me

6 comments. You keep avoiding answers to my questions.

7 I'm going to remind you of something else.

8 In the statement that you made to the investigators of

9 the International Criminal Tribunal, you spoke about a

10 gathering sometime in 1990 on the occasion of the

11 establishment of the local SDS, and on that occasion,

12 you said that many speeches were made, that terrible

13 threats were made during this rally. For example, they

14 said that the Drina River would be full of blood, the

15 Muslims would disappear from this area, et cetera.

16 As far as the SDA rally is concerned, that is

17 to say, a party which, according to your ethnicity and

18 religion, is much closer to you than the SDS, you don't

19 know anything about it, or you don't want to say it.

20 You have been asked to testify here as a witness, and I

21 remind you once again that you are testifying under

22 oath and you're supposed to say what you know.

23 A. I am supposed to say, on the basis of this

24 oath, what I know, and what I do not know, I'm not

25 duty-bound to say. What I did not know myself, for

Page 547

1 sure I said, "I heard about this," "Somebody told me,"

2 et cetera. I cannot say now that I knew what was said

3 at this party meeting when I don't know what was said.

4 Q. But through the mass media. You are an

5 intellectual, you're a doctor, and it is certain that

6 you followed daily news; today, as you did then. So if

7 you followed what happened in connection with the SDS,

8 it is certain that -- it may safely be assumed that you

9 followed developments concerning the SDA, and it is

10 certain that on television and through the newspaper,

11 you could have found out what happened at this rally in

12 Foca.

13 A. Believe me, these stories from nationalist

14 rallies I always found repulsive.

15 Q. Yes, I also find these stories repulsive, but

16 we are here before a court of law.

17 A. I cannot make any comments about things I do

18 not know of. I said that for the SDA, that I heard

19 about this and that I was shocked by the statement made

20 by my colleague Kornjaca, and I would have told him

21 that had I met him. And I cannot say now that I heard

22 this.

23 Q. Sorry. Did anybody tell you anything about

24 this related to the -- I mean, if you heard about this

25 SDS meeting, did someone tell you anything about the

Page 548

1 SDA meeting?

2 A. Well, there were stories --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you wait for the witness to

4 answer?

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do

6 apologise.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the interpreters have

8 to follow, and we have a record here. Wait for the

9 witness to answer before you ask your next question,

10 please.

11 A. I was amongst those people who did not belong

12 to nationalist parties. People talked about it, and

13 people who belonged to my group, who were against

14 divisions, against national divisions, they were

15 against the members of nationalist parties leading the

16 country to disaster. What Ugljanin said, what

17 Izetbegovic said, I did not read that because that,

18 according to what I heard, also went in another

19 direction. That's what was heard in Parliament too.

20 So that's it.

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. That's what I'm asking you to say. If you

23 heard what was said at the SDS rally, could you tell us

24 now, what did you hear about the SDA rally?

25 A. Believe me, that day, I was out on the ground

Page 549

1 working. I was not interested. I did not ask anyone;

2 I didn't ask my close associates. I wasn't

3 interested. I don't know.

4 Q. All right. Let's try to remind you.

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the

6 audiovisual department please play tape number 2, and

7 we would like to tender this into evidence as D2. We

8 have provided the registrar with copies of the

9 transcript in English.

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The videotape

11 will be marked D2, and the transcript D2/1.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I appreciate my friend's

14 difficulty in trying to get this evidence in, and I am

15 not suggesting for a moment that it shouldn't go in. I

16 just wonder whether it should go in through this

17 witness, in light of her evidence, that she doesn't

18 know anything about it. There may be another way or

19 another witness or part of the Defence case. And I am

20 not objecting to it going in. I just don't know

21 whether it's fair to put it to this witness. I

22 understand, however, what he is doing now is saying:

23 Watch the video, see if that reminds you of anything,

24 and then, perhaps, getting the witness to say: Nope,

25 it doesn't remind me, or, yes, it does.

Page 550

1 If that's his intention, I withdraw my

2 objection, but I still have a problem with the

3 groundwork for getting this videotape played now.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a description of

5 the tape, Mr. Kolesar, before it is shown, so we know

6 whether or not it's relevant and we know whether or not

7 it's okay for this witness to discuss.

8 Yes, Mr. Kolesar. Okay.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The tape can be

10 described in the following way: It shows one of the

11 speakers at the founding assembly of the local SDA in

12 Foca, Mr. Semso Tankovic. That is one of the

13 characteristic speeches which should jog the witness's

14 memory. I am trying to find out from this witness

15 about something that I'm sure that this witness knows

16 about; if not directly, then indirectly, just as she

17 knows about what happened at the SDS rally.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, the Bench is of

20 the view that you have to clarify what you want to do

21 with this video. Are you intending to produce it into

22 evidence through this witness or are you simply using

23 it to jog her memory, as you say it, and then ask her

24 questions later? What is it that you want to do?

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

Page 551

1 precisely the latter. I wish to jog the witness's

2 memory and then to introduce this into evidence.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead.

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the tape

5 please be played now.

6 Your Honour, do I have your leave?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, to play it. Yes, so that

8 she can see it.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] So could the

10 audiovisual department please have it played now.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Are we Serbs?

13 No. Are we maybe Croats? No. Are we Muslims? Yes.

14 Esteemed gentlemen, esteemed reporters, esteemed

15 friends, Serbs and Croats. Here you had the

16 opportunity to hear how, on behalf of three million

17 Muslims, the people gathered here answered who we are

18 and what we are. We are Muslims and don't you ever

19 forget that.

20 This is also an answer to all those who, for

21 whichever petty political reasons, might have declared

22 themselves Serbs or Croats, though they belonged to the

23 Islamic religion, and those who say that the SDA

24 doesn't suit them because it is an excessively

25 green party. I tell them from this spot: Let it be

Page 552

1 green because it is ours. SDA. SDA.

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I thank the

3 technicians for having played this.

4 Q. What you saw and heard now, does it remind

5 you of someone having told you about it, this speech,

6 or any of the other speeches?

7 A. First of all, I do not belong to the SDA

8 party. This speech is repulsive to me. I have never

9 heard of this speaker, and I kindly ask the Honourable

10 Court to protect me from such questions. I do not

11 belong to a nationalist party. I was in favour of the

12 division of Bosnia. I attended the promotion of my

13 party that was represented by Zarko Verajic, a

14 well-known sportsman. I cannot agree with what you

15 keep imposing on me, that I know this and that I agree

16 with this. I am a Muslim person, but I am a person who

17 belongs to Bosnia, who loves Bosnia. Bosnia is my

18 state.

19 This party I dislike, just like I dislike the

20 SDS, because they brought about what happened, and I

21 kindly ask you to spare me of these questions, which I

22 find so unpleasant.

23 Q. I believe that the questions are unpleasant,

24 but I am not asking for you -- you to present your

25 political orientation. I am just asking you whether

Page 553

1 you know anything about this?

2 A. I never heard this. I never knew this. I

3 never saw this tape with my very own eyes.

4 Q. When you made a statement to the

5 investigators of the International Tribunal, and you

6 repeated it several times today, that you are not a

7 member of any nationalist party, but you are a member

8 of the Socialist Alliance.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please clarify this to us. What

11 kind of an organisation is this, and what were the

12 programme tenets of this association?

13 A. Well, the Socialist Alliance is not really a

14 political party. It brought together people. It is,

15 in a way, a party, but it was not related to some kind

16 of a political platform; that is to say, what was

17 advocated by the other parties. To tell you the truth,

18 now I can't even remember all of this, after all these

19 years, what it's orientation was. I tell you once

20 again, I was a member of the League of Communists of

21 Yugoslavia, I was a member of the Socialist Alliance,

22 and I attended the promotion of the party that was

23 promoted in Sarajevo, and the leading person there was

24 Zarko Verajic, who was the leading sportsman of

25 Bosnia.

Page 554

1 Q. And of Yugoslavia?

2 A. Yes. I could not attend things that were

3 repulsive to me and I did not know about it.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down, says the

5 interpreter.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Who was a member of the Socialist Alliance?

8 A. Every working person.

9 Q. What about the Socialist Alliance of the

10 working people of Yugoslavia? As an organisation, did

11 it have any influence on social-political relations?

12 Did it have any influence in politics?

13 A. I think very little.

14 Q. Why did it exist then, if it did not have an

15 influence?

16 A. Well, it was probably some kind of a

17 coordinator. But I was not some kind of a leading

18 member. I was involved in my own line of work. This

19 was --

20 Q. Well, now, we are getting to that question

21 too, related to your own work. In this statement, when

22 you talked about the weeks prior to the war, and then

23 in the last paragraph you say, "I did not see any

24 changes in the general atmosphere in the hospital, but

25 I --"

Page 555

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow

2 down.

3 Q. "-- however, I must emphasise that we Muslim

4 doctors were not members of political parties and were

5 not interested in political affairs."

6 That is your statement. Do you still abide

7 by that statement?

8 A. Yes, I abide by that statement.

9 Q. Your colleagues, doctors and the medical

10 staff, who worked there, who are Muslims, were not

11 politically active.

12 A. I just said "my colleagues." I said that

13 they did not belong to nationalist parties. I perhaps

14 misspoke.

15 Q. Do you know, perhaps, that at this founding

16 rally that we keep referring to all the time, that in

17 the presidency, there was a colleague of yours, and

18 also a medical technician?

19 A. I think, when I talked about my colleagues

20 who were in the camp, I think that I said that

21 Dr. Ibrahim Karovic was a member of the SDA. I think.

22 I don't know about the others.

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the

24 audiovisual department please play videotape number 3

25 for us now.

Page 556

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Could you describe it? What is

2 it about?

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] It is part of

4 the founding assembly of the SDA in Foca, where the

5 presiding members are shown, including certain persons

6 who are colleagues of this witness, that is to say, a

7 doctor and a medical technician.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Again, I have the same

9 concerns. I don't need to repeat myself.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will go ahead and view

11 the tape.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Do you have a

13 transcript of this tape, please, for the interpreters?

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, there's no

15 text. There's no text. It is just a shot.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Pause, please.

18 Would you rewind it, and could we have a still of the

19 two people on the tape. Further back. Could we have

20 more light, please.

21 Q. Do you recognise this individual?

22 A. This is Dr. Sosevic. He was a physiologist;

23 he worked in the clinic, not in the hospital. He is a

24 physiologist, a specialist for lung diseases.

25 Q. Is he a doctor?

Page 557

1 A. Yes. Yes, he is a doctor.

2 Q. Your colleague, by profession.

3 A. Well, that is to say, he is a doctor, but he

4 specialises in pulmonary diseases. I am a paediatrics

5 specialist for premature babies. He belonged to the

6 health centre, and I worked in the hospital. I did not

7 know that he was a member of the SDA. But again, that

8 is his personal affair. I was not a member of that

9 party.

10 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

11 A. He's a Muslim.

12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] May we focus in

13 on the next individual.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you recognise this man?

17 A. I don't think he had anything to do with the

18 medical profession. I don't know him, no. If you tell

19 me his name and surname -- I don't know him.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should like

22 to thank the technical booth.

23 Q. On the same question, let me ask you the

24 following: Do you know that in the 1991 elections for

25 the president of the Council of Municipal Assemblies of

Page 558

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, one of the candidates, in addition

2 to Petko Cancar, there was also Dr. Ibrahim Karovic

3 from the health centre in Foca. He is, by ethnicity,

4 what?

5 A. A Muslim.

6 Q. As you can see, amongst your colleagues,

7 there were indeed people who were not only members of

8 the SDA but were in the leadership structures of the

9 municipality and republic. Now, please tell me, on the

10 basis of what were you able to conclude in your

11 statement that doctors of Muslim ethnicity were not

12 members of political parties.

13 A. I was a physician in the hospital. I was

14 talking about my colleagues, the colleagues that worked

15 in the hospital with me. Dr. Karovic and Dr. Sosevic

16 were not doctors in my hospital.

17 Q. Well, that is not what it says. It just says

18 "doctors" in this statement, "doctors of Muslim

19 ethnicity." You did not say "doctors working in your

20 hospital in Foca."

21 A. I don't think that is important at all. The

22 important thing is that I know --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No, it is important, Witness.

24 It is important. Just answer the questions as they are

25 put to you. Because when you simply say "doctors," it

Page 559

1 means all the Muslim doctors. So you have to be

2 specific.

3 A. May I just say a few words?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Wait for the questions

5 from counsel and answer them.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You say you were not a member of any party,

8 but you were a highly respected citizen of Foca and a

9 well-known and recognised physician, and your own

10 personal human qualities were highly respected. Can

11 you tell us whether you know any representatives,

12 although you were not a member of the SDA, in the

13 political leadership of the municipal authorities or

14 republican authorities?

15 A. I know that that man was the president of the

16 SDA, Taib Lojo, and who was in the other authorities, I

17 don't know. Perhaps there was Saja. Saja was a

18 greengrocer. I don't know about any others. To be

19 quite frank, I was never interested. About Taib Lojo,

20 I do know because he was president of the

21 municipality. As for Sajo, I know that he was in the

22 leadership somewhere. I don't know what function he

23 had, but I do know that he was a greengrocer.

24 Q. Do you mean you don't know, or you don't wish

25 to answer? Let me remind you, you enumerated the

Page 560

1 functionaries of the SDA who were in the municipal and

2 republican leadership organs, the SDA ones who were in

3 the republican authorities. Radojica Mladenovic; then

4 you mentioned Sekul Stanic, Miroslav Stanic, Spaso

5 Cosovic, and so on and so forth. You enumerate at

6 least 10 or 12 names of Serbs who held

7 responsible sociopolitical positions in the

8 municipality and in the republic. But when it comes to

9 the Muslims, that is to say, members of your own

10 ethnicity, you only enumerate two; a greengrocer, which

11 I will not dignify by mentioning him, and the president

12 of the municipality.

13 A. Well, listen here, you asked me -- I was

14 asked whether I could enumerate some of the posts

15 filled by the Serbs in the municipality, and I must say

16 that many of the people that I enumerated there, I knew

17 personally and I treated their children. So if I did

18 state their names, I cannot say that I was interested

19 in enumerating the SDA people. I know that in the

20 republican assembly, there was a man called Saja and

21 Lojo. But as for the others, I really do not know.

22 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that the

23 president of the Bosnia-Herzegovina government was

24 Dr. Muhamed Cengic?

25 A. The vice-premier? Yes.

Page 561

1 Q. And what is he by ethnicity?

2 A. He is a Muslim.

3 Q. What about Zulfer Pjano, the district

4 prosecutor? The public prosecutor in Foca, what was he

5 by way of ethnicity?

6 A. He was a Muslim.

7 Q. You've told me about Saja. Do you agree with

8 me that the head of SUP was Himzo Selimovic?

9 A. Perhaps in the last elections. I really

10 don't know.

11 Q. I'm asking you all this, I'm referring to the

12 period after the elections in 1991, I'm not really

13 interested in what happened before.

14 A. I don't know about him.

15 Q. Do you know that he was commander of the

16 Territorial Defence -- that Sulejman Pilav was

17 commander of the Territorial Defence, although,

18 according to the municipality's statute, this post

19 should have been filled by a Serb, this post should

20 have gone to a Serb. Sulejman Pilav.

21 Please tell me one more thing. What is your

22 husband by profession?

23 A. He is an engineer, forestry engineer.

24 Q. After the 1991 elections, where was he

25 employed?

Page 562

1 A. Before and after the elections he worked in

2 the Maglic Company.

3 Q. What was his post?

4 A. He was a director of processing, and later on

5 was a member of the executive council.

6 Q. Was that during the time that the OUR

7 existed?

8 A. Yes. Afterwards he was on the business

9 board. He was on the business board or board of

10 directors of the Maglic Company.

11 Q. You mentioned the OUR, Organisation of

12 Associated Labour, which was the structure that existed

13 in the former Yugoslavia and governed labour

14 relations. This was before 1991, in force before

15 1991. Was your husband a member of the League of

16 Communists of Yugoslavia?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Later on was he a member of the SDA?

19 A. Heaven forbid.

20 Q. Do you know that a club of intellectuals,

21 Muslim intellectuals, was set up which accept the

22 programme and statute of the SDA, but were not actually

23 members of the SDA?

24 A. Probably those were people who did gravitate

25 towards the SDA.

Page 563

1 Q. Was your husband a member of that club?

2 A. As far as I know, he was not. He never opted

3 for anything that would be attached to a nationalist

4 party.

5 Q. I should like to ask the usher to show the

6 witness a document. It is a list.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Each time you want to show the

8 witness anything, can you sufficiently describe it and

9 tell us for what purpose you are showing the witness

10 the document.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should like

12 to show the witness the list of the people present of

13 intellectual Muslim cadres from the Foca municipality

14 which attended a meeting with representatives of the

15 municipal board of the SDA, and to remind the witness

16 about an individual under number 11, and ask her

17 whether it is in fact her husband, [redacted].

18 MR. RYNEVELD: I just heard a name mentioned

19 and it can't go on the ELMO. Perhaps this is

20 something, if there is a delay for the broadcast of

21 this, I would ask that this be a good time to check

22 into that.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: What we can do, the witness can

24 be shown the document, without showing it on the ELMO,

25 and then can say whether or not number 11 is the name

Page 564

1 of her husband, without mentioning it. And I think

2 the name was mentioned somewhere, so can the Registrar

3 get --

4 JUDGE HUNT: It was definitely mentioned and

5 shouldn't have been.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do

7 apologise.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So you can go ahead. If you

9 can see -- just mention the number.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: While the witness is looking,

11 I wonder whether this is a document that has been shown

12 to us. It may be, I just don't know which document she

13 is looking at.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar -- and I thought

15 there was a page --

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The document

17 was not presented either to the Prosecution or to the

18 Trial Chamber. I just wanted the witness to have a

19 look at it, and if she confirms my claims, then I would

20 like to tender it into evidence, with the permission of

21 the Trial Chamber, of course.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, you haven't shown

23 it to the Prosecution. They don't even know what the

24 document is. I was of the view that all you wanted was

25 a name, because we can't mention the name. That's

Page 565

1 all.

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] At this point

3 in time, when the witness answers, if we cannot tender

4 it into evidence, we will present it to the Trial

5 Chamber as an exhibit later on, on another occasion

6 during the trial.

7 A. I apologise, I can't see his name here at

8 all, and there isn't a signature. I think if

9 somebody's name is here without a signature, then he

10 was not present at the meeting. And, as far as I know,

11 my husband was never a member of anything. So anybody

12 could have wrote down his name, but I can't find him

13 here. I can't find the name on the list, and certainly

14 not his signature.

15 Q. I said under number 11. The copy isn't a

16 very clear one.

17 A. Well, quite possibly. This isn't quite clear

18 to me. I do apologise, but this isn't clear.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the document back,

20 please.

21 A. I cannot accept this. First of all, it's not

22 clear, and, secondly, next to each name you would have

23 to have a signature. If the signature is beside the

24 name, it means the person was present. If there is no

25 signature, and this is all this has been added onto, it

Page 566

1 is not clear, illegible and so on.

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Unfortunately,

3 we haven't got an original of this document with us at

4 the moment.

5 If my distinguished colleagues are against

6 having this material tendered into evidence at this

7 point, then I will withdraw it. We have heard the

8 witness's answer to my question.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: No, it can't be tendered into

10 evidence.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Very well. I

12 agree with you, Your Honour. And that was to have been

13 my last question. I have no further questions.

14 And I'd like to ask the document to be

15 returned to me in that case, please. Thank you.

16 May I sit down, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: No. No. You haven't

18 finished. Because the document must be numbered, even

19 if it is not produced into evidence. Unless you are

20 saying you -- you said you withdraw it? You said you

21 withdraw it, so you don't want it to be numbered

22 either?

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] If it cannot be

24 entered into evidence. But, yes, I would like it to be

25 numbered and have it remain.

Page 567

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So the numbering will be for

2 identification only.

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document

4 will be marked D/4.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: And if, as you say, that you

6 may want to produce it through another witness at a

7 later stage, the Prosecution must be given copies, so

8 that they can do their own investigation.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I assumed that

10 the Prosecution, in view of what I wanted to ascertain

11 here today, would not have made any difficulties, but I

12 abide by their right to do so, and I withdraw.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Jovanovic, any

14 questions?

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

16 Honours.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination,

18 Mr. Ryneveld?

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness

21 33. We are very grateful that you came here.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

23 Your Honour.


25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do

Page 568

1 apologise, Your Honours. I didn't understand. I

2 understood that I did not have the right to

3 cross-examine the witness.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: No. No. No. I asked you

5 whether you had any questions, and you said no.

6 Do you wish to put any questions to this

7 witness, as a result of the evidence she has given?

8 You are Defence counsel for the third accused.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] There seems

10 to have been a misunderstanding, Your Honours. I do

11 apologise. I do have questions for the witness, but

12 not linked to what we were discussing a moment ago.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: So you would like to

14 cross-examine this witness? Yes, please, go ahead.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

16 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Good day.

18 A. Good day.

19 Q. I am not interested in the questions that

20 were put here in relation to political affiliation, and

21 what happened in Foca before the war and all of that.

22 I am interested in something else. If you could please

23 clarify to us a bit some of the things you said in your

24 statement on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of July 1995.

25 Before we move onto this, if you agree, I

Page 569

1 would like to clarify some expressions that you used

2 during the course of this day, and which I did not

3 really understand. Namely, the following: When you

4 say, "We were in favour of peace. We did not believe

5 that something bad would happen. People were saying

6 that medical supplies were being taken away." Can you

7 tell me exactly who you have in mind? Who is "we"?

8 What does "we" mean?

9 A. I think most of us, people who were in my

10 environment, who belonged to my circle that I moved in.

11 Q. Does that involve Serbs and Muslims?

12 A. That involves Serbs and Muslims.

13 Q. And Croats?

14 A. Yes, and the Croats, who were very few,

15 because there were members of all three ethnic groups

16 that were in favour of peace rather than war.

17 Q. If I followed what you said this morning

18 correctly, you said that there were good human

19 relationships that had you with Serbs, and that you

20 also had some relatives among the Serbs?

21 A. Yes. Yes. Until the present day.

22 Q. All right. Until the present day. I am

23 asking you this for the following reason -- actually,

24 just one more question before that. At this critical

25 period before the armed conflict broke out in Foca, I

Page 570

1 imagine that you followed the mass media, as we say.

2 Did all ethnic communities have all the mass media

3 accessible to them?

4 A. Yes. Yes. All of us could watch on

5 television what was going on, in the assemblies, on the

6 radio, television, et cetera. And, for example, these

7 quarrels, these quarrels of these persons who

8 represented these nationalist parties, because they

9 were the ones who held leading positions in the last

10 parliament. For a normal and honest person, this was

11 repulsive behaviour.

12 Q. Yes, that's right. Since you just said to me

13 now that you followed the mass media --

14 A. Yes. Yes. As far as the parliament is

15 concerned. Yes. Yes. As far as the parliament is

16 concerned.

17 Q. Okay. I see from your statement that these

18 rallies that were held in Foca --

19 A. Yes, I only heard about that in the evening,

20 because this happened late. They sang, for example,

21 these songs of combat, "We are in favour of peace. Get

22 out. We are not going to have a war, are we?" I heard

23 things like that.

24 Q. All right. Could you explain your claim that

25 you were surprised when the conflict broke out in Foca;

Page 571

1 if, before that, you knew all of that, and if you were

2 aware of that, how come?

3 A. I don't understand what you are saying. I

4 didn't understand this very well.

5 Q. Well, you said that you had Serb friends?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That you had Serb relatives?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That you followed the mass media?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That you followed what was going on in the

12 parliament; that you were aware of -- at least to a

13 certain extent, what was going on at the founding

14 assemblies of the nationalist parties. If you were

15 surprised, if you were taken by surprise by what had

16 happened in Foca --

17 A. Could you believe -- according to your

18 dialect, I assume that you are from Serbia. Could you

19 believe that after a good life together there could be

20 a war? I could not believe that.

21 Q. I am not asking you whether you believed

22 this. I am just asking you how come you were caught by

23 surprise. These were two completely different notions,

24 altogether.

25 A. Well, listen. You lawyers interpret things

Page 572

1 differently. I am not a lawyer.

2 Q. Yes, but you are also an intellectual. And I

3 think that we understand each other. We are speaking

4 the same language.

5 A. I did not expect the war.

6 Q. All right. Can you explain to me the reason,

7 or can you assume, why none of your Serb relatives or

8 Serb friends did not warn you of the possibility of an

9 armed conflict break-out, and you are on such good

10 terms with them?

11 A. I was on very good terms with all of them.

12 No one told me a thing about any of this. Those who

13 had family ties and those who were good friends with me

14 in Foca, and my colleagues, who were closer to me or

15 those who --

16 Q. Please. Please. We have heard this quite a

17 few times now. I am asking you concretely, and could

18 you give me a concrete answer. None of your Serb

19 relatives or Serb friends warned you; right?

20 A. Right. No one

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Now,

22 could the witness please be shown the statement that

23 she made on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of July 1995, in the

24 Bosnian language, of course. If you do not happen to

25 have a copy, we have a copy. So if you wish.

Page 573

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Does the Prosecution have a

2 copy?

3 MR. RYNEVELD: We do not have one in B/C/S

4 available.

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No problem

6 whatsoever. We've got a copy.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: I understand that that

8 particular document in Serbo-Croat is already in your

9 documents.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: We have had a copy

11 translated --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: You have the English version?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I definitely have lots of

14 English versions of it.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: So the Serbo-Croat -- so it is

16 a Prosecution document?

17 MR. RYNEVELD: It's a Prosecution document, I

18 believe, if that's what he is referring to. I have

19 umpteen copies in English. I just didn't have one in

20 B/C/S to hand to the witness.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: So we'll have the B/C/S one

22 handed to the witness.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: It's Exhibit 37 in the binder.

24 Now, I have not introduced, of course, this

25 document into evidence as an exhibit, but if the

Page 574

1 Defence is intending to refer the witness to it, then

2 perhaps, if she is going to be referring to it, is it

3 their intention to make it an exhibit, and if so, the

4 English version should also come before the Court.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: First of all, we have it

6 numbered for identification, and then counsel will say

7 whether or not they actually want it introduced into

8 evidence. Or maybe counsel maybe just wants to raise

9 questions with the witness.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 I asked for this statement to be shown to the witness

12 in the Serbian or Bosnian language just in order to

13 communicate more easily, so that she could follow the

14 questions that I may have for her on that basis.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This will be

16 the Exhibit, Prosecution Exhibit number 37.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Have you had a look of the statement that was

19 given to you?

20 A. Page 1?

21 Q. Page 1. The title. I think you are supposed

22 to turn back, as far as I can see from here. No. No.

23 No. Back, back, back. We are starting from the very

24 beginning of the document that is in front of you.

25 There we are.

Page 575

1 You are the person who is mentioned here

2 where it says "name," right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You made this statement on the 3rd, 4th, and

5 5th of July, 1995?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So that is undeniable now? You accept this

8 as your own statement? I didn't understand you to say

9 yes or no.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Can we start with page 4,

12 please. On page 4, paragraph 3, paragraph 3 starts

13 with the sentence stating: My colleagues of Serb

14 ethnicity, et cetera, et cetera. Have you found it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Somewhere in the middle of this paragraph

17 there is a sentence which says --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not

19 have a copy.

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Have you found this?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. For the Trial Chamber, could you please read

24 this whole sentence.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters do not have a

Page 576

1 copy, so you have to read what you want them to

2 interpret.

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

4 Honour.

5 Q. "It was being said that the Serbs were arming

6 themselves. I heard at the time that Serbs were being

7 given weapons by the truckload. That must have been

8 true, because when the conflict broke out, all of them

9 were armed. I did not see this myself. I heard this

10 from other persons."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So that's your statement?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you hear about who this was who

15 distributed weapons to the Serbs?

16 A. I heard that in the evening trucks drove

17 weapons around and gave them to people from -- and gave

18 them to people, Serbs.

19 Q. Did you perhaps hear about any other side

20 getting weapons?

21 A. I know that the other side, as far as I

22 heard, bought weapons. We mentioned a person a few

23 minutes ago, that they could only buy weapons but they

24 could not get it. But then I don't know. That, I

25 don't know.

Page 577

1 Q. I don't understand what you're saying. You

2 don't know whether the other side bought or got

3 weapons?

4 A. I heard that some people got -- bought

5 weapons, but they did not get it, that they were not

6 distributed to them.

7 Q. Oh, they were not distributed to them. But

8 if I understood you correctly, both sides were arming

9 themselves, were they?

10 A. Yes. But the fact was that the Serb side was

11 much better armed.

12 Q. On which basis do you draw this conclusion?

13 Are you a military expert?

14 A. No, I'm not a military expert.

15 Q. On which basis do you draw this conclusion?

16 A. On the basis that everybody was armed.

17 Q. Who is everybody?

18 A. Those who were in town and who wore military

19 uniforms. That is how I drew that conclusion.

20 Q. All right. We're going to get to that part

21 of the question too. But now you said it -- did you

22 see in town both armies?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So you saw only one army.

25 A. While the shooting went on, I was in the

Page 578

1 basement, and then I was taken to the camp.

2 Q. Witness, that is not what I'm asking you.

3 I'm asking you --

4 A. I just saw one army.

5 Q. And on that basis, did you conclude that one

6 army was armed and the other one was not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you see one side, you do not see the other

9 side, and on that basis you draw a conclusion.

10 A. I did not see the party -- the other side

11 because I could not see the other side, because I was

12 in the basement while there was shooting, and when the

13 shooting stopped --

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Please help

15 us to follow you better, and we would kindly ask you to

16 make breaks between questions and answers.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: You have a problem because you

18 don't have your earphones on, so you don't know when

19 the interpreters are talking.

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] You're quite

21 right, Your Honour, and I won't repeat it, it won't

22 happen again. I apologise.

23 Q. May we go back to my question now. You saw

24 one side; you didn't see the other side.

25 A. Yes.

Page 579

1 Q. And you concluded from that that one side was

2 armed and that the other side was not armed.

3 A. I didn't speak about the other side at all.

4 I didn't say it was not armed. It says quite clearly

5 that I presumed that it was because everybody -- et

6 cetera.

7 Q. You said a moment ago, when we talked about

8 the method in which people came by weapons, that one

9 side was better armed than the other side. Now we have

10 just tried to make this more concrete in the manner --

11 that is to say, how you came by that conclusion, and I

12 think we have clarified that point now. You were able

13 to see one thing, and from that you deduced your own

14 conclusions. Thank you.

15 May we now --

16 A. I am listening to the French interpretation,

17 and I can't hear you now, I'm afraid. I hear the

18 French interpretation.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Could the usher please help the

20 witness with the correct interpretation channel,

21 please. What is the correct channel, Mr. Usher? What

22 is the correct channel for the witness?

23 THE USHER: Six.


25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 580

1 Q. Can you hear me now?

2 A. Yes, I can.

3 Q. Let us go down to paragraph 4.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As the Trial

5 Chamber and my learned friends for the Prosecution do

6 not have the translation before them, I shall say, in a

7 word, what this document and this paragraph is about,

8 and then we will hear the witness answer. This

9 paragraph talks about the disappearance and taking away

10 of medical equipment and medicines at the critical

11 period.

12 Q. If I may, and if you agree, Witness, I would

13 just like to point to a section of your statement, a

14 part of your statement, in paragraph 4. You say, "I

15 did not see that with my own eyes but I heard about it

16 from other colleagues, that medicines were being taken

17 away from the hospital. The man who was in charge of

18 the hospital pharmacy was a Serb. His name was Vitomir

19 Mrgud, and it is highly probable that he organised the

20 taking away of the medical equipment."

21 I am now interested in a term you use, "it is

22 highly probable," "almost probably." Does that mean

23 that somebody else could have organised that, except

24 for Mr. Vitomir Mrgud?

25 A. If Vitomir Mrgud was in charge of the

Page 581

1 hospital pharmacy --

2 Q. Witness, I'm asking you whether it was

3 possible that somebody else was responsible for taking

4 away the medicines. Please answer yes or no.

5 A. I think that nobody but the head, the person

6 in charge, could do that. So if I am head of a

7 department, I'm in charge of what happens in my

8 department. And he was head of the pharmacy, hospital

9 pharmacy, and was responsible for what happened in his

10 department.

11 Q. Could you please give me a yes or no answer.

12 Was it possible that anybody else did that, or is it

13 not possible?

14 A. I cannot answer that. I can only assume that

15 the head of a department, or the head of any

16 institution must know what is going on in his

17 department.

18 Q. Yes. I'm not contesting that fact, that the

19 head of a department is always responsible for his

20 department, that is his job. But that does not mean

21 that he, in fact, did do that; do we agree?

22 A. Well, quite -- well, possibly. But I think

23 that the person in charge of a service or department is

24 responsible for what goes on in that department, in the

25 department under his charge, in his charge.

Page 582

1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us move on.

2 In the same paragraph, paragraph 4, on page

3 4, the witness states as follows: "The trucks were

4 driven by hospital drivers, and I assume that they

5 transported the material to the surrounding Serbian

6 villages."

7 I should now like to ask you one question in

8 this connection, perhaps two. How many drivers did the

9 hospital have?

10 A. I don't know exactly, but there were at least

11 seven or eight.

12 Q. Do we know what those drivers were by

13 ethnicity?

14 A. There were both Serbs and Muslims.

15 Q. Did you know all of them?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. On the basis of what are you able to assume

18 that this was done by the hospital drivers?

19 A. Because they would drive the ambulances and

20 this material was taken off in ambulances.

21 Q. Just one moment, please. I don't quite

22 understand you. You know that this was taken off in

23 ambulance vehicles?

24 A. I assume it was, yes.

25 Q. If I understand you correctly, you assume a

Page 583

1 lot of things but don't actually know what happened.

2 A. I did not see any of this taking place, but I

3 heard tell.

4 Q. Would you please answer my questions? I'm

5 not asking you --

6 A. You cannot make me say something that I don't

7 know about.

8 Q. I'm not compelling you to do anything,

9 madam.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, if you understood the

11 question, you would be able to answer correctly. You

12 simply listen to the question and answer. If you don't

13 know, you say so. If you assumed anything, you say you

14 assumed something. Okay? Just answer the questions

15 put by counsel.

16 A. I said that I assume. If I have the right to

17 say "I assume," then that is what I said. I said I

18 assume or I suppose, I presume.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Did you hear the President of the Trial

21 Chamber? Would you please give me a yes or no answer,

22 or say you don't remember, but don't say you assume.

23 A. She said that I could say I assume.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I

25 apologise. It was my mistake, Your Honour. It was my

Page 584

1 mistake, Your Honour, and I do apologise.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I know that when you're

3 cross-examining you expect certain answers from the

4 witness, but the witness can only give answers she is

5 able to give. If it's knowledge, if it's an

6 assumption, that's up to her.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] You are, of

8 course, quite right, Your Honour.

9 Q. May we look at the next paragraph, please,

10 Witness.

11 A. Yes. Go ahead.

12 Q. Paragraph 5, page 4. "In the early spring of

13 1992, my colleagues and I noticed about ten military

14 trucks with Trebinje number plates taking off what was

15 referred to as war reserves, such as bandages,

16 antibiotics, drips, infusion solutions, and similar

17 items." Now we come to something that you actually saw

18 yourself. Who you please describe those military

19 trucks for us?

20 A. They were military trucks with tarpaulins,

21 canvases over them, and they were aligned on the road

22 above the hospital building and --

23 Q. Just one moment, please. For yourself, and

24 for the Trial Chamber and myself, it will be much

25 simpler if you give me brief answers, please. What

Page 585

1 colour were those trucks?

2 A. The grey/olive green colour.

3 Q. How far away from the trucks were you?

4 A. Some 15 metres.

5 Q. From that distance, were you able to see or

6 recognise the number plates on the trucks?

7 A. I was not able to, but other people who were

8 closer by were able to. I did not see the registration

9 plates.

10 Q. Does that mean that this part of your

11 statement is not correct?

12 A. It is correct, because other people saw them,

13 and they said that the number plates were Trebinje

14 number plates, and they told me that.

15 Q. Just one moment, please. Would you read what

16 you stated, and the paragraph begins "In the early

17 spring ..."

18 A. What do you wish to ask me? That from 15

19 metres away, I was not able to see the Trebinje number

20 plates --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You were asked to read a

22 certain part, and that's all you should have done.

23 A. "In the early spring of 1992, my colleagues

24 and I noticed some ten military trucks with Trebinje

25 number plates taking off these so-called war reserves,

Page 586

1 such as bandages, antibiotics, drips, infusion

2 solutions. The individual who organised this was Simo

3 Stankovic, director of the hospital administrative

4 department. As the trucks were from Trebinje, I assume

5 that they were taken off to the Trebinje front."

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Let us go back to the beginning of the

8 sentence. Did you see or did you not see the number

9 plates?

10 A. I saw them.

11 Q. Do you know what number plates exist on

12 military trucks?

13 A. These had Trebinje number plates. Maybe they

14 weren't military trucks, but they were the SMB, that is

15 to say, the olive-grey/green trucks with canvases.

16 Q. If I understand you correctly, at one point

17 you say that they were military trucks but had civilian

18 number plates.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What led you to that conclusion?

21 A. Well, I saw the number plates. I cannot make

22 any conclusions. If it is a Trebinje number plate,

23 then I assume that it is a military truck.

24 Q. Do you know what kinds of number plates

25 military trucks have and what kind civilian trucks

Page 587

1 have?

2 A. No, I do not know that.

3 Q. Let me ask you again. On the basis of what

4 fact did you know that these were military trucks,

5 madam?

6 A. Because the people who drove the trucks were

7 wearing military uniforms.

8 Q. That is a new piece of information that has

9 not come up so far in your testimony.

10 A. Well, I don't have to write down everything

11 in my statement.

12 Q. There's no problem there. Whose uniforms

13 were they?

14 A. They were the SMB uniforms, the

15 olive-grey/green type.

16 Q. Whose were they?

17 A. How should I know? How should I know whose

18 uniforms they were?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, you are not here to

20 ask questions. Please answer questions put to you by

21 counsel. If you don't know, you say so. We shall get

22 on much, much better.

23 A. They were military; I don't know whose. They

24 wore military uniforms; I don't know which uniforms

25 they were.

Page 588

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Continuing on in your

3 statement, you say that the shipment of this new

4 material was conducted by Simo Stankovic. How do you

5 know that this was done by Simo Stankovic?

6 A. Because he was there with the people taking

7 out this material, and I think he was in charge of this

8 organisation.

9 Q. Do you think or do you know?

10 A. Well, I know that he was with that group of

11 people who were taking off this material, so I assume

12 that it was him. I assume it was him.

13 Q. So what you say in the statement is not

14 correct.

15 A. I saw him there.

16 Q. No. Just one moment, please, Witness. You

17 say, "The man who organised the shipment of this

18 material was so and so."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now you say "maybe." So make your choice.

21 Which one is it?

22 A. I shall stick by the fact that it was Simo

23 Stankovic.

24 Q. Let us go back again. How do you come by

25 this conclusion?

Page 589

1 A. Because he was amongst the group of people

2 who were loading up the material, he signed papers. So

3 who else could it be? It couldn't have been me.

4 Q. Now, who it could have been, that could be a

5 long story, we could go into that at some length. Are

6 you quick to bring in conclusions?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I don't feel that that is so.

9 A. That's what you think.

10 Q. If we go back up the statement, you see one

11 side who's armed -- you say one side is armed, you see

12 one side armed, and you say the other side isn't. You

13 see a truck, a green truck, with no military number

14 plates, but you conclude that it is an army truck. You

15 see Simo Stankovic standing there, and you make the

16 conclusion that he was the organiser of this whole

17 thing.

18 Let us go onto the next sentence, when we are

19 making these deductions and conclusions.

20 "As the trucks were from Trebinje, I assume

21 that the reserves were taken to the Dubrovnik front."

22 Is that not a premature conclusion on your

23 part?

24 A. The war raged in Dubrovnik.

25 Q. Madam, the war has been raging in our country

Page 590

1 for the past ten years. I know that you feel bad about

2 it, and so do I, equally so, but I am asking you

3 something quite different, and I would like to hear

4 your answer. And I am waiting?

5 A. What are you waiting? What do you wish to

6 hear?

7 Q. An answer to my question. How you were able

8 to deduce that these trucks were taking these reserves

9 to the Dubrovnik front?

10 A. I assumed they were taking it to the

11 Dubrovnik front.

12 Q. Very well.

13 A. And that's what I say here in my statement, I

14 assume.

15 Q. We have an enormous number of assumptions

16 here.

17 Let us move onto page 5. Page 5, paragraph

18 2.

19 A. Do you want to read it, or am I going to read

20 it?

21 Q. It's all the same. Okay. I am going to read

22 it.

23 "About a week before the war broke out,

24 Zdravko Milicevic hanged himself. He worked as a

25 doorman at the hospital. This was a great shock to

Page 591

1 all, because everyone liked him at the hospital.

2 Afterwards, when the war broke out, we remembered that

3 he often repeated before his death that he would not be

4 capable of killing anyone, of hurting someone's child

5 or of torching someone's house. I think that he

6 received orders that he could not carry out, and that

7 that was the reason why he killed himself."

8 Did you know the late Zdravko Milicevic?

9 A. Very well. He was an exceptional man.

10 Q. Okay. Okay. Did he tell you -- I am going

11 to reformulate this question. Can you focus this

12 expression of yours somehow, "we remembered," without

13 mentioning any names? Does that mean your friends,

14 neighbours, family members, who remembered?

15 A. We who were often on duty in the hospital.

16 He was on duty at the gate, he was a gatekeeper, a

17 doorkeeper.

18 Q. Okay. Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a

19 second. After the war broke out, after -- well, look.

20 There is not much time left. There's about ten

21 minutes.

22 A. Well, this has been too much for me anyway.

23 Q. Well, it's too much for me too, but what can

24 I do? This is your statement.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we please proceed with the

Page 592

1 case, rather than emotions.

2 Mr. Ryneveld.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: This is cross-examination, and

4 I appreciate that there is wide latitude in

5 cross-examination, but she is now being cross-examined

6 about a paragraph in her statement which was not led

7 in chief. I just want to point that out. I realise

8 it's in her statement, but if she is being

9 cross-examined on evidence she wasn't led on in

10 chief -- at least I didn't lead that from her.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: That is her statement which she

12 made, which is -- yes.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I didn't ask every -- there

14 are certain portions, of course, in trying to make it

15 relevant. My friend finds it relevant. I agree that

16 this is --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Credibility issues.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: There is wide latitude for

19 cross-examination. I just want to point out, it was

20 not something on which she was led in chief.

21 JUDGE HUNT: That only demonstrates that you

22 didn't think it was very important, but apparently

23 counsel cross-examining does. Simply to show, as I

24 understand the cross-examination, that she has

25 exaggerated or jumped readily to conclusions in her

Page 593

1 statement. These, I suppose, are relative to

2 credibility, is it not?

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I just

4 thought I would point out the fact that the

5 cross-examination is on some area in which the witness

6 was not led in chief.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, when it comes to

8 statements made by witnesses, it does not matter

9 whether the Prosecution raised anything in the

10 statement, because everything that is said in the

11 statement by a witness who is on the stand can be

12 raised in cross-examination.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I am not taking issue with

14 that at all. I just thought I would point out the fact

15 that this matter was not led in chief from the

16 witness. But I probably have wasted enough time on the

17 issue and I'll sit down. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I think I should say, though,

20 that ruling by the Presiding Judge, I hope, is limited

21 to -- provided its relevant, in some way at least to

22 credit. Just simply because it's in her statement,

23 doesn't make it relevant. It has to be relevant to

24 some issue in the case, which includes the credibility

25 of the witness. At least that's how I understood the

Page 594

1 ruling, and that's the way I would rule. If it's meant

2 to be something different, I'm afraid I would have to

3 dissent.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Please go ahead.

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

6 Your Honour.

7 Q. Just a minute. Let's please go back to

8 this. Right.

9 Later you said, "After the war broke out."

10 If I followed carefully enough what happened to you

11 after the war broke out, you spent eight days in the

12 basement and then you were arrested. So, in that

13 period of time you remembered --

14 A. No. No. I started to work. I started to

15 work after --

16 Q. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You are right.

17 You are right. This is after you were released from

18 prison.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You started to work then?

21 A. Yes, I started to work and then we discussed

22 this.

23 Q. Who discussed?

24 A. At the ward, we who were working at the

25 ward. There were Serbs, Muslims, men and women,

Page 595

1 colleagues, those who were not in favour of war.

2 Q. Well, look, I don't know how this procedure

3 goes, but can the witness be shown that part of her

4 statement when she says which Serbs and Muslims were

5 still employed when she went back to work. I think

6 that there is a bit of contradiction there, but I don't

7 have it in front of me now. Do you have her testimony

8 of today?

9 A. I am talking about until the 20th of May,

10 both one and the other.

11 Q. All right. When you say that you remembered

12 that he often repeated before his death, did you

13 actually hear this from him yourself, that he was not

14 capable of killing or of hurting a child?

15 A. Yes. Yes. He was often on duty, and when we

16 were on duty too, and then he would either stop by the

17 ward and have a cup of coffee, and he kept saying, "I

18 could not kill my neighbour's child. I could not torch

19 someone's house." Do you think it's normal to say

20 something like that? I think that's normal.

21 Q. I think it's normal too. I think it's normal

22 too. But let us just continue.

23 On the basis of what do you think that he

24 received orders to hurt someone's child or to kill

25 someone?

Page 596

1 A. Because he hanged himself just before the

2 war.

3 Q. That's not what I am asking you. That's not

4 what I am asking you. I am asking you on the basis of

5 which -- of what do you think that he received orders

6 to kill someone or to hurt someone's child or to torch

7 someone's house? That's what I am asking you.

8 A. I assume.

9 Q. On the basis of what do you assume that?

10 A. On the basis of his story, and later the fact

11 that he hanged himself. As a person, he could not

12 allow himself to do so. So I am looking at this as a

13 human being too.

14 Q. Wait a second. As far as I understand this,

15 we, as human beings -- well, it would be very difficult

16 for any one of us to hurt someone's child, or to torch

17 someone's house. Something has to happen, that is, so

18 that I would kill myself on account of that. Isn't

19 that right? I think that his position is that of a

20 normal person; isn't that right? Do you agree with me?

21 A. If he was receiving orders from someone to do

22 that.

23 Q. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I am interested

24 in the following: Where did you get this idea that he

25 got orders from someone to hurt someone's child?

Page 597

1 A. That is my assumption, because he was a

2 normal person, and he could not hurt someone's child.

3 Q. Madam, in your statement --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, wait for the witness

5 to complete the answer.

6 A. On the basis of what he said earlier on, what

7 is mentioned here too, I assume that he was given

8 orders, and that he, as a human being, could not allow

9 himself to do so, and he killed himself.

10 Q. So that is yet another one of your

11 conclusions? He was a Serb. I assume that another

12 Serb ordered him to do that. Is that your assumption

13 too?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I did not hear your answer.

16 A. Yes. I could not have ordered him.

17 Q. You said yes?

18 A. I could not have ordered him.

19 Q. No. No. No. I don't think you did it.

20 No.

21 A. You mean whether I think that it's a Serb who

22 ordered him to do that?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Yes, I assume that is so.

25 Q. Does that mean that a Muslim could have

Page 598

1 ordered him too?

2 A. Well, yes, he could have.

3 Q. So everything is possible, right?

4 A. I assumed that a Serb ordered him. For

5 example, someone from this group that wanted to carry

6 out ethnic cleansing in this area.

7 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Aha. Can you give me

8 the names of some of the members of this group that

9 were getting ready for ethnic cleansing, and what was

10 the connection between Zdravko Milicevic and some of

11 the members of this group that was getting ready to

12 carry out ethnic cleansing and issuing orders to kill,

13 to hurt children and torch other peoples houses?

14 A. I cannot give an answer because I don't know.

15 Q. Wait. Wait. Just a minute. Then what you

16 said is not correct?

17 A. It is correct. I said that I think that I

18 assume that it is so, because he was an honest man and

19 he could not allow himself to do that.

20 Q. But that means that someone ordered him to do

21 that?

22 A. Well, yes. Let it be that way.

23 Q. So that someone was someone who was getting

24 ready for ethnic cleansing?

25 A. Yes.

Page 599

1 Q. So who was this? Tell me the name of one

2 person, or several persons? How old was Zdravko

3 Milicevic?

4 A. Well, he was very young. He was younger than

5 40. I don't know exactly.

6 Q. Was he a member of a party?

7 A. I don't think so.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

9 a minute or two to 4.00.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Ask one or two questions. You

11 still have questions to ask?

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Unfortunately, I do.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah, one more, or two.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So you definitely do not know whether he

17 received orders or did not receive orders; this is just

18 your assumption?

19 A. My assumption.

20 Q. Thank you. Just a minute. Let us move onto

21 page 6. Paragraph 4. Your Honour. Your Honour.


23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do

24 apologise. This question of mine -- this question of

25 mine, unfortunately, will require, I imagine, a bit

Page 600

1 more time than the time we have left today.

2 Do you think it would be advisable for me to

3 embark upon this right now, or should we leave this for

4 tomorrow?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think it's 1600 hours,

6 or almost. Maybe we can start tomorrow morning at

7 9.30.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you

9 Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: We will adjourn until 9.30

11 tomorrow at 9.30 a.m.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

13 at 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

14 Wednesday, the 22nd day of March, 2000,

15 at 9.30 a.m.