Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 601

1 Wednesday, 22 March 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar, please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number

9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Madam Witness.

12 We are continuing this morning with cross-examination.

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

14 may I begin?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 WITNESS: WITNESS 33 [Resumed]

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic [Cont'd]

20 Q. Good morning. Have you had a chance to rest

21 a little bit?

22 A. [No audible response]

23 Q. I have too. May we continue?

24 A. Yes, we'll continue.

25 Q. Very well. You will need a copy of the

Page 602

1 document in your own language.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

3 could the usher hand the witness a copy of this next

4 document.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you describe the document?

6 You describe the document first and you tell the Trial

7 Chamber why you want to refer to it.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

9 unfortunately I wasn't able to hear you at all because

10 the headset wasn't set at the proper volume. I do

11 apologise. Could you possibly repeat what you said?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm saying that each

13 time -- before you hand a document to a witness, you

14 describe the document, you inform the Trial Chamber why

15 you want the witness to refer to the document, and you

16 also indicate whether or not an advance copy has been

17 given to the Prosecution.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

19 Honour. The document that I have handed to the witness

20 is a document that the witness had in her hands

21 yesterday. It is her own statement in the language

22 that we use to communicate, both the witness and

23 myself.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: At this point, I want to

Page 603

1 perhaps say the same thing that I did yesterday with a

2 slightly different twist to it.

3 Yesterday, my concern was that the witness

4 was being cross-examined on parts of her statement

5 which were not led by the Prosecution. She has been

6 extensively cross-examined with respect to this

7 document, which, as I understand it, was never

8 introduced into evidence.

9 Because of the extensive cross-examination on

10 that document now, and because of the Court's

11 indication that the wide latitude given in

12 cross-examination yesterday was going to the matter of

13 credit, it would seem to me that in order for this

14 cross-examination to continue on a document which is

15 not in evidence, that the proper basis to do that would

16 be for her to be shown the document, see whether she

17 adopts it in its entirety, and then mark it as an

18 exhibit; so that the Court may then, for the matter of

19 credit or for the matter of what weight to be attached,

20 has a document to compare the answers from an actual

21 document that is an exhibit.

22 It's on that basis that I wonder, before my

23 friend continues, whether we could put the document

24 into evidence on that basis. That is my concern that I

25 stated perhaps ineffectively yesterday.

Page 604

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, the Trial

3 Chamber agrees with the Prosecution that it should be

4 produced. In any case, it is a statement that the

5 witness made. You heard what the Prosecution was

6 concerned with: is that her statement, has she signed

7 it, does she stand by what is in the statement, and

8 then you can go ahead and have it produced.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

10 Honour. I understand.

11 If I may, I should just like to say, in a

12 word, why I did not propose yesterday that this be

13 tendered as an exhibit. But my learned colleague has

14 proposed this here today, and I fully agree with his

15 proposal; I agree with the exhibit, if it is identified

16 according to the Rules, be admitted into evidence as an

17 exhibit. I didn't wish to do so yesterday for the

18 simple reason that the document that I had at my

19 disposal, and that I showed to the witness, was

20 provided to you by the Prosecution. They are their own

21 exhibits and they put them forward, and I just wanted

22 to assert the credibility of the document in the sense

23 of Rule 90. But I, of course, have nothing against

24 having this exhibit tendered into evidence before this

25 Trial Chamber.

Page 605

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then. It will be

2 admitted into evidence. Can we have the number, Madam

3 Registrar?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: My recollection is --

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document

6 will be marked 37, dated the 22nd of March.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: We were just discussing about

9 the two versions, the Serbo-Croat and the English. So

10 both versions should be admitted into evidence.

11 Madam Registrar, I'd like to find out whether

12 you have the Serbo-Croat version.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We do not

14 have the translation of this witness statement.

15 However, in this witness statement, there is also a

16 letter that has been translated. So the registrar

17 would like to have a B/C/S version of the witness

18 statement.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Does the Prosecution have a

20 copy?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't have it with me just

22 at the moment. There may be a copy upstairs in the

23 office.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me explain. Usually,

25 witness statements, for those who speak Serbo-Croat,

Page 606

1 will normally be recorded in Serbo-Croat and then typed

2 or whatever, printed, in Serbo-Croat, and then

3 translated into English. So when documents are

4 presented for exhibits in the proceedings, both

5 versions are needed, because sometimes a problem of

6 interpretation arises. So the Court ought to have the

7 original in Serbo-Croat as well.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: My understanding from my

9 colleagues is that the original was in English in this

10 case and has been translated into Serbo-Croat.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: So the original was in

12 English?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: That's my understanding.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The Serbo-Croat is a

15 translation?

16 MR. RYNEVELD: That's my understanding, yes,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So normally we would

19 have 37A, the original, in whatever language, and "B"

20 would be reserved for the translated version. So can

21 we be promised copies of the Serbo-Croat?

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Our case manager will get it

23 now.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you. So we can

25 proceed.

Page 607

1 MR. RYNEVELD: The Defence do have copies, I

2 understand, in Serbo-Croat, of the translation.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the registrar have a copy?

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

5 Honour, we do have a copy in Serbian, and thanks to our

6 colleagues in the Prosecution, we received those

7 copies, along with all the other material, at the

8 beginning. So we do have a copy, but it doesn't seem

9 that everybody else does.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll get copies later. Can we

11 proceed with the cross-examination, please.

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness 33, I apologise to have to use that

14 number. It's a little dehumanised, but we have to do

15 so. The statement that you have before you, is it the

16 same statement you had yesterday, and would you look at

17 page number 1, please.

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Would you now turn to the last page of that

20 statement. I think that you confirm it there. Do we

21 have that? It says "witness," but there's no

22 signature?

23 A. Yes, there's no signature. That's right.

24 Q. That's it, then. Thank you. Is this your

25 statement?

Page 608

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. I have to ask you at the onset whether you

3 fully stand by the statement that was given, if I am

4 not wrong, on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of July 1995?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. If you would now turn to page 6,

7 please. Have you found page 6? I think that at the

8 bottom of each page there is a small number, to

9 facilitate matters.

10 A. Yes, I found it.

11 Q. So let us look at the first, second, third,

12 the fourth paragraph from the top.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The paragraph begins, "Since the beginning of

15 the war ..."

16 A. I found it.

17 Q. Very well.

18 Your Honours, as you do not have before you

19 this copy, this part of my question relates to the

20 section, that is to say, to the events after the

21 beginning of the armed conflict in the town itself,

22 when the witness was in a shelter. And that's what we

23 are talking about in this particular section, and I

24 have several questions to ask her in that regard.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Could I have where the paragraph

Page 609

1 commences. That gives us a way of finding it on our

2 version.

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

4 in my language it says, "Since the beginning of the

5 war, the 8th of April 1992 ..." or words to that

6 effect.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. When did the armed struggle begin in the town

10 itself?

11 A. As far as I remember, I wrote the 8th of

12 April.

13 Q. The 8th of April. Very well. When it all

14 began, you all went down to the shelter or basement?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell me, as it says that during that

17 period you had several telephone calls, you received

18 several telephone calls, could you tell us the time

19 period. If we say that the beginning was the day you

20 went down to the basement, to the shelter, during what

21 period of time did you receive these several telephone

22 conversations?

23 A. I cannot say. I used to go out of the

24 shelter.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. For the Trial

Page 610

1 Chamber, and all of us here in the courtroom, could you

2 please, because we are not as well acquainted with the

3 geography of that part, that region, as you are, what

4 is the distance between Foca and Gorazde?

5 A. About 35 kilometres.

6 Q. Gorazde is a town which at that time, and

7 today as well, is within the composition of what

8 entity?

9 A. It is the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 It wasn't then. Then it was within the composition of

11 the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. Could you now tell us something about the

13 colleagues that phoned you up. You needn't give us

14 their names, but can you tell us what they were by

15 ethnicity? Do you remember that?

16 A. I do remember. But it's eight years since

17 that time. I'm not sure who actually called me up,

18 because the ambulance service was working and patients

19 would be brought to the Foca Hospital. It was the very

20 beginning of the war.

21 Q. How do you know that the patients -- that

22 patients were coming into the Foca Hospital, if you

23 were in the shelter of your building?

24 A. Well, as I said, I went out of the shelter, I

25 left the shelter from time to time, bending down to get

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14 The French and English transcripts.

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Page 612

1 some food and whatever I needed, and go back to the

2 shelter.

3 Q. And how did you, when you were getting --

4 preparing this food, did you know that patients from

5 Gorazde during the war operations were being

6 transferred to Foca, which is 35 kilometres away, where

7 there was also wartime operations going on? Is there

8 something illogical there?

9 A. No, there isn't. There is nothing

10 illogical. If my colleague phoned me up from Gorazde

11 and said that his ambulance was coming to the hospital

12 in Foca, and that -- is there anything illogical

13 there? For me it is quite logical, because --

14 Q. For me it is not quite logical.

15 A. Well, it is for me. This was just the

16 beginning of the war, when the ambulances were still

17 working.

18 Q. Very well. Let us move on and go to the next

19 paragraph. The paragraph begins, "On the 14th of April

20 1992 ..." That was the day when you were taken into

21 custody, as you said. Is that right? We can go

22 slowly. We are in no hurry. Take your time.

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. This happened at 6.30 a.m., in the morning,

25 half past 6.00?

Page 613

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At the point where you left the building, was

3 there shooting in town?

4 A. No, I didn't hear any shooting.

5 Q. In your statement you say that these

6 uniformed individuals with stockings over their heads,

7 or socks over their heads, were crying out to you and

8 telling you and your neighbours to hurry up, because

9 there were snipers who would shoot.

10 A. That's right. But I didn't hear the

11 shooting. We were just told to hurry up because there

12 were snipers and they might be shooting.

13 Q. What do you think; whose snipers were they?

14 A. Well, it is not up to me to assess who the

15 snipers were, who the snipers belonged to.

16 Q. Madam, in your statement here, and we

17 discussed this yesterday, you assessed, concluded

18 certain matters and so on, assumed. I am just asking

19 you for one of your conclusions. Can you give me a

20 conclusion or not?

21 A. How do I know? The people that were taking

22 us off, taking us away, they knew who the snipers were,

23 so they could be snipers from both sides. If we were

24 being taken away, for example, by --

25 Q. Let me ask you another question. Do you

Page 614

1 think that it was logical that Serbian snipers were

2 shooting at Serbian soldiers?

3 A. Not at soldiers. Perhaps at civilians.

4 Q. At civilians?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The ones that were surrounded by Serbian

7 soldiers?

8 A. As far as I know, snipers have a set target

9 and fire straight at it.

10 Q. Are you an expert in ballistics?

11 A. No, of course not, and I would never wish to

12 be an expert in ballistics. That's only what I think

13 happened. And what I wrote down in my statement, I

14 stand by it today.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours. Yes, I am

17 somewhat concerned that the line of questioning is --

18 as it did yesterday to a marked degree, is bordering on

19 the argumentative between counsel and the witness.

20 Now, I know that Your Honours have cautioned both

21 counsel and the witness about the manner of the

22 discussion between them, but if my learned friend could

23 perhaps restrict his questions to questions of fact or

24 not argue logic with the witness. Because, if that's

25 the case, we are going to end up having differences of

Page 615

1 opinion with respect to logical consequences discussed,

2 whereas she is a fact witness. Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Jovanovic,

4 you've understood what counsel for the Prosecution is

5 saying. She is a fact witness and you state the facts.

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: And the other point is that --

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will stick

10 to facts.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: And the other fact is that both

12 parties, the Prosecution and yourself, all three

13 defence counsel and accused, agreed that there was an

14 armed conflict in Foca at the material time. So there

15 is no need for details of this armed conflict, because

16 it's an admitted fact. It's agreed. So we don't need

17 to go into details about that.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

19 Honour. May I continue?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] With my

22 cross-examination of this witness?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. We are still on the same page, and the one

Page 616

1 but last paragraph, and the last paragraph as well. I

2 hope you won't think that this is a question of logics

3 and semantics, but I am interested in having the

4 witness explain why she considers that she is in a

5 camp, if she is let out of the camp to go and stay and

6 sleep with -- over with her friends, sleep at her

7 friends' house. What kind of camp is that, then?

8 A. I state here that we were not conscious of

9 what was happening. If we were brought there, brought

10 to Livade, nobody told us why we had been taken there,

11 what would happen to us, and so on.

12 Q. I have to interrupt you.

13 A. I stand by my statement. I am -- do not

14 point my finger at anybody.

15 Q. I have to interrupt you, witness.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you would do well if

17 you allowed the witness to answer, instead of

18 interrupting her. Please proceed. Ask a question.

19 You wait for her to answer, then ask the next

20 question. That's how it should be done.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I really don't know what happened in Foca at

23 that time. I truly don't know what happened to you.

24 All I know is what you have told us here.

25 A. What I told you is what happened.

Page 617

1 Q. You said that there was not enough room for

2 all the prisoners in the camp?

3 A. Yes. In that room, no.

4 Q. I am just asking you, what kind of camp is

5 it, from which prisoners are released to go and sleep

6 in the houses of their relatives?

7 A. Are you asking me that? You should ask the

8 person who was in charge there, this Mr. Nedjo, who

9 allowed us, for lack of accommodation, to go and sleep

10 in the neighbourhood with somebody we knew. He

11 personally rang up the family that I said I knew, and

12 they agreed that I could come over and spend the night

13 in their home with their family. I have nothing

14 further to add to that. That's what happened. But he

15 also told us that we should return the next morning.

16 Q. I fully understand you. But you are using

17 the following expressions "camp" and "prisoners."

18 When somebody tells me that he is a prisoner in a camp,

19 I think of something quite different.

20 A. That was the first night; the first night

21 when we were taken away.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, the witness is

23 describing what happened to her, where she was taken,

24 and what the situation there was. She may be using the

25 word "camp," which may mean something else to you, but

Page 618

1 she is telling us what the place was like and how they

2 were treated, and why she is referring to the place as

3 a camp. Now, you don't argue with her.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

5 Honour. May I continue?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Can you explain, or, rather, can you describe

9 to me this room, the premises that you were detained

10 in?

11 A. As far as I remember, I described it in here.

12 Q. Please, can you tell us about this once

13 again?

14 A. I can read it. This was eight years ago, and

15 I know those hangars very well, what they looked like.

16 They were warehouses, warehouses of the Perucica

17 Company. There were concrete floors, concrete walls.

18 There was a window that had some kind of -- excuse me.

19 There was a big hall and two rooms inside; one room

20 that I was in with my family, and a few other people

21 were in that room. There were actually 29 of us. The

22 room was about three metres by three metres. The

23 window was covered. There was some kind of wooden

24 blinds on it. There was only a hint of sunlight coming

25 through.

Page 619

1 In the hall we found some cardboard boxes and

2 we put them on the floor. That is where we would lie

3 down during the night. Since the room was small, we

4 could only lie sideways, so if one person would turn

5 one side, then everybody would have to turn that side.

6 In the room that we were staying in, in this

7 entire area, there were no toilet facilities and there

8 was no water. They brought us water in bottles, and I

9 think I mentioned this yesterday, we went to the toilet

10 upstairs to pee. And if we were to pass a stool, we

11 had to go out with a guard. And outside there was a

12 kind of an outhouse. That was it.

13 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in the room that

14 you were in --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: That is the room she has just

16 described. She has just described the room in which

17 she and her family were.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

19 Honour. I just wanted to ask whether there was any

20 furniture in that room.

21 A. No. No, there was nothing. Nothing. It was

22 just a concrete floor, concrete walls, and a window

23 that was covered. And from this hall, we brought in

24 cardboard boxes that we put on the floor, and that's

25 where we lay.

Page 620

1 Q. Did the guards let you open the door or the

2 windows?

3 A. We could not open the windows at all. The

4 door was not locked, the guard was outside, and, of

5 course, we could not go out. But the door was not

6 locked.

7 Q. You said that there were 29 persons with you

8 in that room.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell me what the age group was,

11 approximately, if you remember, of the persons who were

12 there?

13 A. There were children that were about half a

14 year old up to persons of the age of 70.

15 Q. When the guards would leave you in that room,

16 for example, during the night, you were detained in

17 that room during the whole night; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many persons died in that room during the

20 four days while you were there?

21 A. Not a single one.

22 Q. You're a doctor.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I have to put a question to you now. A room

25 that is three-by-three metres and that houses 29

Page 621

1 persons that spend the entire night there -- you do not

2 open the window; you do not open the door -- as a

3 doctor, I'm sure that you know how much oxygen a

4 person, a living being, needs for one hour.

5 A. Of course I know that well, but things were

6 the way I described them.

7 Q. Madam --

8 A. There is nothing I have to say.

9 Q. This borders on the laws of physics.

10 A. The laws of physics were not exactly observed

11 there, unfortunately.

12 Q. You continue to claim that 29 of you survived

13 in a room that was three-by-three.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. One night?

16 A. No, two nights. And then they let the

17 elderly, women, and children go home.

18 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something. In

19 1995, when you made this statement, were you still in

20 the area of the former Yugoslavia?

21 A. Is that important?

22 Q. If you wish, you can answer me.

23 A. I don't have to answer that.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm only concerned that we're

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14 The French and English transcripts.

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Page 623

1 bordering on an area that -- I think we should tread

2 very, very carefully with the question that's being

3 asked, because my friend has an unredacted statement

4 and he knows where the witness was subsequent to her

5 leaving Foca. I just want to make sure that we don't

6 stray into an area that might cause some concern with

7 respect to protective measures.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, you have

9 understood the Prosecution's concern?

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I did fully,

11 Your Honour. My question is one that I do not seek a

12 precise answer to. The witness's place of residence

13 does not have to be located specifically in any way, or

14 of her relatives. A permit to leave the town of

15 Gorazde --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not Gorazde,

17 Foca.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, there

19 are a few towns in the former Yugoslavia that are

20 mentioned in this permit that was produced here. Not a

21 single town has to be mentioned, not a single

22 geographical notion has to be mentioned. I'm simply

23 interested in whether she was in that territory or

24 not.

25 Let me explain this. This former country

Page 624

1 was, for example, 1.500 kilometres by 1.000

2 kilometres. I was simply interested in whether she had

3 been in that territory at the time. I do not want

4 to --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: At which time?

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] At the time

7 when this statement was made, that's all.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: But that's what the Prosecution

9 counsel is saying, that the statement shows where it

10 was taken.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: On the English version as

12 well, the bottom of page 11, there's an indication

13 where she was.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's move on, Mr. Jovanovic.

15 We are going in circles and wasting a lot of time.

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

17 All right.

18 Q. That page 11, yesterday in your statement,

19 you said that you had to sign some kind of documents

20 before you left Foca. Page 11, the second paragraph, I

21 think.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you please be so kind as to explain

24 what you said yesterday; namely, you said that you

25 signed something and that you did not even know what

Page 625

1 you were signing, and that your only objective was to

2 get out.

3 A. Yes. But before that, we were told that we

4 would sign papers on which it says that we leave all

5 our property to the Serb Republic. However, for me,

6 that was not important at all. What was important for

7 me was to leave Foca. It is sad that after 29 years I

8 had to leave my place of birth and the town where I

9 spent practically my entire career and my entire life.

10 That was the least important of all for me. It was in

11 my interest to leave and to be free.

12 Q. I know. But I still have to ask you, you

13 don't know what you signed.

14 A. That's what we were told. "That's it," and

15 "Sign this." Do you think that I had the time and

16 that I was interested in reading this piece of paper

17 where something was written?

18 Q. Oh, so you don't know what you wrote.

19 A. Well, let it be, let it be that I don't know,

20 but we were told, "You have to sign such and such a

21 thing." As I said in here, if that's what I was told,

22 I assume that that is what it said on this paper. For

23 example, it said that I was leaving Foca at such and

24 such a date or hour, and there was a signature.

25 Q. Do you believe everything everyone tells

Page 626

1 you? Do you believe everything everyone tells you?

2 A. Listen, there were people who I knew very

3 well who worked there. I spent my entire career

4 working there. I completed elementary school and high

5 school in Foca. For example, the clerks who worked at

6 the SUP, I knew them very well and I trusted them. I

7 signed it. Of course, I didn't sign my own death

8 penalty. I signed this because I wanted to leave, to

9 get out. I wasn't thinking about what I was leaving

10 and how I was leaving it.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. Let me tell you one more thing. Throughout

13 that time, I was staying at somebody else's apartment,

14 I was wearing other people's clothes and shoes, and I

15 left with borrowed money. My friends collected things

16 for me to wear and for my family to wear, and we were

17 trying to figure out how far the borrowed money could

18 get us.

19 Q. Did you get a copy of this document that you

20 signed?

21 A. No. No. What I got, I showed to the

22 investigators.

23 Q. All right. And the end, the very end of your

24 statement, what I see here is one, two, three, four,

25 six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, fifteen,

Page 627

1 fifteen names, sixteen names. Do you personally know

2 all these people?

3 A. No.

4 Q. If it is correct that on the 26th of June,

5 1992, you left -- on the 26th of June, 1992, you left

6 Foca. How do you know that these persons were members

7 of the military police in Foca during the war? Was it

8 during the time while you were there, or was it during

9 the war?

10 A. The persons that are here in this list, I

11 didn't know, for example, who was there and who

12 belonged where. I don't know these people. None of

13 them mistreated me, that's what I said in the camp and

14 outside the camp. No one came to see me after that.

15 Because while I was at my colleague's apartment, I did

16 not blame anyone, I just mentioned what was given to me

17 on a piece of paper.

18 Q. Who gave this to you on a piece of paper?

19 A. A friend.

20 Q. When was this given to you?

21 A. While I was still in Foca.

22 Q. Before you got out of Foca?

23 A. Before I got out of Foca.

24 Q. A friend of yours came and gave you a list

25 with these names on it?

Page 628

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Why?

3 A. I don't know why. So that I'd know who was

4 there.

5 Q. Are you going to tell me now that from June

6 1992 to June 1995, you kept this list with you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can we see this list now?

9 A. It's not here.

10 Q. Do you remember what this friend of yours was

11 by ethnicity, the friend who brought you this?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Tell us.

14 A. He was a Serb.

15 Q. And can you assume why -- or, rather, do you

16 know whether he gave this list to someone else?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's answer was

18 not audible to the interpreters.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Why did he choose you?

21 A. He was my friend.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: The kinds of questions we are

24 now embarking on are inviting the witness to speculate

25 about what's going on in the mind of yet another

Page 629

1 person. This is clearly outside the realm of something

2 she could know, and if my friend is inviting argument

3 or inviting speculation, that's a concern.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, you've

5 understood what counsel is concerned with?

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] My learned

7 colleague is absolutely right. I am asking the witness

8 to speculate, which is indeed wrong, but please don't

9 hold it against me. This is a surprise for me too. In

10 the statement, the way I read it, I could not have

11 guessed that there would be a list that would be kept

12 for three years.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead with your questions,

14 please.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You know, I have another question. I don't

17 know whether I shall be deviating from the procedure

18 now or not, but did you volunteer to be heard as a

19 witness?

20 A. I was asked.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

23 further questions.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.

25 Any re-examination?

Page 630

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. No

2 re-examination. Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: The bench has no questions,

4 Witness. Thank you very much for coming to The Hague

5 and giving evidence to the Tribunal. You may now go.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very

7 much.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: She has to wait so that she is

9 completely shielded before she leaves.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Do we need the blinds down

13 still?

14 MS. KUO: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next

15 witness is Witness 65, and he has not requested any

16 protective measures.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: So we can open up the blinds

18 and remove the screen as well.

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

20 with your permission, yesterday we received information

21 from the OTP that witness number 52 would be examined

22 today, and we prepared ourself for Witness 52, not 65,

23 because for 65 we would have brought in certain

24 exhibits that we would like to tender.

25 We announced these exhibits for tomorrow,

Page 631

1 guided by the decision of the Office of the

2 Prosecutor.

3 MS. KUO: Your Honour, what we told defence

4 counsel is that it would be either 65 or 52. We were

5 not completely sure, and they should be prepared for

6 both.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel has a piece of paper

8 which he would like to show, I think, to the

9 Prosecution.

10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's what

11 we got from you, that the first witness would be 52.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Does that piece of paper

13 indicate any other witness?

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but

15 number 2. And witness number 93 under number 3.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: But, according to that paper,

17 the first witness is number 52.

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

19 Honours.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The second witness is 65?

21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: The next witness is 92.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] 93, Your

25 Honour.

Page 632

1 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may, the piece of paper

2 that my learned friend is holding is indeed one that I,

3 I think, wrote down and discussed with counsel that

4 speaks English of the other group. I might say I did

5 that about noon yesterday, when it appeared that the

6 order of witnesses may change. There was an unexpected

7 circumstance that arose, and out of an abundance of

8 caution, I indicated to them that it would likely be --

9 I did not anticipate that Witness 33 would take the

10 balance of the day, and that we might have to move 52

11 ahead for yesterday.

12 Circumstances, of course, changed, and the

13 witness in the original order is available and, at the

14 close of proceedings yesterday, when it appeared that

15 33 was going to continue, I indicated that it could be

16 any one of those three that would be testifying. I

17 still expect, circumstances permitting, that 52 will

18 come on today. I am hoping that we will be able to

19 accomplish slightly more than we did yesterday.

20 Having said that, when I wrote down three

21 numbers and was asked to prioritise in terms of which

22 ones I thought would be first, that was, I think, at

23 around noon yesterday, when I had put -- I had given

24 numbers 1, 2, 3. But at the close of business

25 yesterday I indicated that the order may change and

Page 633

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between

14 The French and English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 634

1 they should be prepared for all of them.

2 If I misled them, my apology.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: To whom did you indicate the

4 order may change?

5 MR. RYNEVELD: The young lady whose name I

6 forget, sitting at counsel table with Mr. Jovanovic.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you confirm that?

8 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can

9 confirm that we talked during the break, in the

10 afternoon, and later afterwards. But in the piece of

11 paper it says that number 52 would be the first one,

12 and then --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. He says, at the close of

14 proceedings yesterday, he discussed with you and did

15 indicate that the numbering, the sequence may change.

16 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] As far as I

17 understood, 52 would be first, and then 65, and then

18 93, I guess.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Where is number 52?

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Not here at the Tribunal, but

21 he is within calling distance, and we could probably

22 have him here for the next session.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. What we can do

24 is -- this is number?

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Sixty-five. Which is one of

Page 635

1 the witnesses that they knew we were going to bring

2 today.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Go ahead with

4 examination-in-chief.

5 Mr. Prodanovic, your concern is that you

6 haven't brought the documents for this witness?

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

8 Honour. We wished to tender these exhibits and we

9 announced these exhibits for tomorrow, because we were

10 misled.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I be permitted to add

13 one further comment as to the reason, and I do

14 apologise to my learned friends, any inconvenience this

15 may have caused. But you should be aware that the

16 reason that the order of witnesses suddenly changed

17 yesterday had to do with the health concern for one of

18 the witnesses. It was an unforeseen circumstance, and

19 in order not to waste any time, I thought I would put

20 them on notice that we would accelerate the

21 proceedings. There is a health concern that this

22 witness should be heard as soon as possible.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much,

24 Mr. Ryneveld.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 636

1 What we have decided is we go ahead with the

2 examination-in-chief, the witness goes off. We go

3 ahead with the next witness, and when we have a break,

4 maybe lunch hour or maybe tomorrow morning, the Defence

5 counsel is able to bring the exhibits and then we go

6 ahead with cross-examination. So instead of waiting

7 for the other one to be brought in, let's go ahead. We

8 have a witness to deal with.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

10 Honour. That is the best solution, and I thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: In order to resolve this

12 problem of which witness we'll call, can the

13 Prosecution each day supply all of us, including the

14 Bench, the list of witnesses for each week. It's

15 easier to supply witnesses for each week, because, like

16 we are saying, maybe the witness will take the whole

17 day and all of that, so that the Defence counsels can

18 prepare for all those witnesses, 3, 4, 5, regardless of

19 who comes in first.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. We'll certainly do

21 that.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Let's go ahead.

23 Can the witness make the solemn declaration. Stand up,

24 please.

25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

Page 637

1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

2 truth.

3 WITNESS: SAFET AVDIC

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. You may sit down.

5 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

6 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you please state

7 your name for the record.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Tell us your name.

10 A. My name is Safet Avdic. Am I supposed to

11 give my other particulars, details, like my date of

12 birth, or do you just want my name and surname?

13 Q. I'll ask you for the specific information as

14 we go. If you just answer the specific question, that

15 would be helpful.

16 Mr. Avdic, how old are you?

17 A. I am almost 60. I am over 59.

18 Q. Before we continue, could you please tell the

19 Court if you currently suffer from a heart condition?

20 A. I am very excited at the present, because

21 this is the first time that I am in a court of law, so

22 this is all a bit much to me.

23 Q. Did you have to be taken to hospital by

24 ambulance two nights ago, because of this?

25 A. Yes. About midnight. I had to be taken to

Page 638

1 hospital as an emergency, because of the illness I

2 suffered in November, and I was in the hospital at

3 Maastricht for 15 days. I was hospitalised for 15

4 days.

5 Q. Mr. Avdic, are you feeling all right this

6 morning? If you need a break, could you please let the

7 Court know.

8 A. Yes, I will. Thank you.

9 Q. Could you please tell the Court where you

10 were born?

11 A. I was born in Cajnice, on the 10th of August

12 1940.

13 Q. How would you define yourself by ethnicity?

14 A. By ethnicity, I am a Bosniak of the Muslim

15 religion.

16 Q. Do you prefer to describe yourself as Bosniak

17 rather than Muslim, for purposes of ethnicity?

18 A. Ethnically, well, I've got used to saying

19 Muslim, because by the Yugoslav constitution that was

20 enacted, the term referred to was Muslim.

21 Q. Until the war, where did you live?

22 A. In Foca.

23 Q. Were you married?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you have any children?

Page 639

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many?

3 A. I have a son, who is 28 years old, and a

4 daughter, who is 25.

5 Q. What kind of job did you have when you lived

6 in Foca?

7 A. I graduated from the Faculty of Forestry and

8 always dealt in the field of forestry for 28 years in

9 Foca, throughout that time.

10 Q. Whom did you work for?

11 A. I worked for a timber firm called Maglic of

12 Foca, and within that complex it had -- it had

13 nurseries of forests and wood processing and timber.

14 Q. What positions did you hold within the Maglic

15 Company?

16 A. First of all, I was an engineer, as on the

17 technical staff. Then I was the deputy director, and

18 then I became the director of the Sumartsvo Company.

19 And at the end of 1988, I left the post of director and

20 joined the main headquarters as a worker in the

21 forestry and timber industry.

22 Q. Could you describe how large a company Maglic

23 was?

24 A. Maglic is -- that is to say, Maglic employed

25 about 2.500 workers. Later on, with the introduction

Page 640

1 of new technology, there wasn't the need for that many

2 workers, so the number of workers was reduced, and in

3 latter years, depending on the season, particularly on

4 the forestry season, there was -- were about 2.000

5 workers.

6 Q. And was Maglic a mixed workplace, that is,

7 with workers of different ethnicities?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you a member of any political party?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And aside from your compulsory military

12 service with the JNA, the Yugoslav army, did you have

13 any further military involvement?

14 A. No.

15 Q. When was your compulsory military service?

16 A. I did my compulsory military service in

17 September 1964, after I had graduated from university.

18 Q. Regarding the establishment of nationalistic

19 parties in Foca, do you know whether the SDA had a

20 founding rally in April of 1989?

21 A. I do know.

22 Q. Where was it?

23 A. It was held at the estuary of two rivers on

24 free territory, the confluence of two rivers, and the

25 area is called Pijesak. This is the term we used to

Page 641

1 refer to that area.

2 Q. Was that in Foca?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you attend?

5 A. I did attend for a little while; not

6 throughout.

7 Q. And what was the platform, very, very

8 briefly, as you understood it?

9 A. I was far away, on the road, and I watched

10 this from the road. And I wasn't very interested in

11 the platform, but only part of the speech made by Alija

12 Izetbegovic, the President of the SDA at the time. And

13 I remember full well one of his sentences, when he

14 said, "What happened in 1941 in Foca can never happen

15 again."

16 Q. Do you know what that was a reference to?

17 A. That was a reference to the sufferings of the

18 Muslims.

19 Q. Did the SDS hold a founding rally in the

20 summer of 1989?

21 A. The same year the SDS -- I meant to say 1989,

22 1990. But, anyway, in 1990 both these meetings were

23 held. After the SDA held its assembly, the SDS held

24 its founding assembly on the stadium near Cehotina; it

25 was a football stadium.

Page 642

1 Q. To clarify the date. Do you say that both

2 those rallies were held in 1990?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you attend the SDS rally?

5 A. I was also present for a brief period, just

6 like I was when the SDA had its rally.

7 Q. Did you hear Radovan Karadzic speak?

8 A. For a short time, yes, but I also remembered

9 one of his sentences, where he said that there could be

10 no life in common with the Muslims.

11 Q. Did you hear a speaker named Vojislav

12 Maksimovic?

13 A. No. No. Because, as I say, I only attended

14 for a short period of time, and then left the rally.

15 Q. Do you know whether he -- did you hear from

16 any other source what that person said at the rally?

17 A. I apologise. Which individual are you

18 referring to? Radovan Karadzic do you mean?

19 Q. No. I meant Maksimovic.

20 A. No. No. Not at the founding meeting of the

21 SDS at the stadium. But as to your question, I have

22 another answer. That is to say, the statement made by

23 Mr. Maksimovic at the founding assembly of the Cultural

24 and Arts Society, the Serbian Cultural and Arts Society

25 held at the school centre in Aladza, on that occasion

Page 643

1 Vojislav Maksimovic said that the Muslims were the

2 greatest enemies of the Serbs.

3 Q. Do you know who Mr. Maksimovic was at the

4 time; what position he held?

5 A. At that time he was active in the SDS party.

6 He was deputy as well in the Republican Assembly.

7 Q. In 1992, where did you live?

8 A. I lived in Foca, Mosa Pijada Street, number

9 6.

10 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the

11 building in which you lived?

12 A. Six Muslims, Muslim families, and four

13 Serbian families.

14 Q. What floor was your flat on?

15 A. I was on -- whether it's the second or third

16 floor, because the building had three floors. If you

17 count the ground floor, it had the ground floor, the

18 first floor, second floor. And I was at the top of

19 that building. I had a flat in that building.

20 Q. And from your flat, what views of Foca did

21 you have?

22 A. Foca, through the window, I could see the

23 northern parts of Foca, from the kitchen window and the

24 dining room window; whereas from the sitting room

25 window and bedroom window, you could see the southern

Page 644

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between

14 The French and English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 645

1 part of Foca.

2 Q. And specifically what neighbourhoods could

3 you see?

4 A. You could see the centre of town, where the

5 Maglic Company was and the army centre, Dom Armije, the

6 area around the hotel. Part of the hotel, the lower

7 part of the hotel, I could see from the dining room

8 balcony; and from the northern side, Donje Polje, the

9 KP Dom; the right-hand side, across the road from the

10 hotel, Donje Polje, Gornji Polje, the Mahala area, and

11 the new settlement in that area above the old youth

12 centre building, the Careva Mahala area, and part of

13 the Hadzivukovic Street, called Carezluk, that area.

14 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher,

15 I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit 12/1. I

16 have an extra copy here that we can use. If that can

17 be placed on the ELMO and the witness given a pointer.

18 Q. Mr. Avdic, could you please point out where

19 your apartment was?

20 A. My apartment was here [indicates], that's the

21 building "G", these three buildings in a row here, and

22 the last small building, this one [indicates].

23 Q. Was that apartment, then, very close to the

24 Hotel Zelengora?

25 A. It is the first building next to the hotel.

Page 646

1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Avdic, you mentioned a number

2 of neighbourhoods, and I would like to ask you the

3 ethnic composition, if you know, of these

4 neighbourhoods. I'd like to start with Donje Polje.

5 Could you tell us what the ethnic composition was

6 there?

7 A. Donje Polje was exclusively Muslim, about 80

8 percent, shall I say. About 80 percent were Muslims

9 and 20 percent Serbs.

10 Q. Of the private homes in Donje Polje, are you

11 able to state what the approximate percentage was in

12 Donje Polje?

13 A. The private homes. Well, I would say that

14 about 90 percent were Muslim houses and 10 percent

15 Serb houses, of the private houses, in my estimate. I

16 don't know, of course, the exact figure.

17 Q. In the neighbourhood of Cohodor Mahala, are

18 you able to describe the ethnic composition?

19 A. Cohodor Mahala, towards the end, was maybe a

20 50:50 ratio.

21 Q. I mean at the beginning of the war. When you

22 said "toward the end" --

23 A. Yes, at the beginning of the war. At the

24 beginning of the war, this present war.

25 Q. And Prijeka Carsija?

Page 647

1 A. Prijeka Carsija was predominantly Muslim,

2 with the Careva Mahala, linked with the Careva Mahala.

3 Q. How about the ethnic composition of the

4 Aladza neighbourhood?

5 A. The ethnic composition of Aladza was also

6 predominantly Muslim rather than Serb.

7 Q. And finally, the ethnic composition of the

8 city centre, the area where you lived.

9 A. The centre of town was a Serb majority, by

10 virtue of the number of inhabitants.

11 Q. Could you now describe an area known as Dub,

12 where a hunting lodge was located. In what part of

13 town was that located?

14 A. The hunting lodge was above the KP Dom, on a

15 hill called Dub.

16 Q. And how are you familiar with that part of

17 town?

18 A. I went up there on a picnic, excursion, to

19 that hunting lodge.

20 Q. Are you able to see that area from your flat?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Shortly before the war, did you see any

23 military preparations in that area?

24 A. Before the war, immediately before the war, I

25 didn't actually pay any attention, that is to say, I

Page 648

1 didn't look up there much, but I did hear people say,

2 from Donje Polje, that up there the Serbs were

3 organising themselves and that they had taken over the

4 area with arms.

5 Q. Were you able to observe any of this activity

6 yourself?

7 A. I could only see activity during the war,

8 when the war began. I saw this from my apartment; I

9 used binoculars and watched what was going on through

10 the window.

11 Q. What did you see?

12 A. I saw a sniper nest with people moving

13 around, and they were on the terrace of that hunting

14 lodge. They were sitting around, moving around. There

15 was general movement in the area.

16 Q. Could you see what those people were wearing?

17 A. They were not wearing civilian clothing.

18 They were wearing exclusively olive-green/grey coloured

19 clothing, of the former Yugoslav army type.

20 Q. Did you see any weapons?

21 A. Yes, you could see a machine-gun, and it was

22 positioned in the direction of Foca.

23 Q. Shortly before the war began, did you see

24 people walking around Foca with arms, with weapons?

25 A. Yes, I did, and as my neighbours explained to

Page 649

1 me, they were what they referred to as "joint guards".

2 Q. What was your understanding of that?

3 A. My neighbour called me to stand guard in the

4 hallways of our building, but I said, "Well, there's no

5 need. Why should we?" But, in fact, when my

6 neighbour did stand watch, I would come and keep him

7 company, with no weapons, of course. I'd just keep him

8 company there on occasion.

9 Q. What reason were you given for why people

10 needed to stand guard?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Did you see people with weapons in the street

13 before the war?

14 A. I said I saw individuals, but that was

15 exclusively at night, not during the day.

16 Q. Were those individuals wearing uniforms?

17 A. Rarely at that time. Rarely at that time.

18 Q. What kind of weapons were these individuals

19 carrying?

20 A. They were carrying rifles. Some would be

21 carrying hunting rifles, if they had them; other people

22 would carry carbine-type rifles; some would carry the

23 army type. But for the most part, they were hunting

24 rifles.

25 Q. Can you say which weapons Serb individuals

Page 650

1 were carrying versus Bosniak individuals, if you know,

2 if you're able to say?

3 A. The Serbs usually carried the sort of

4 army-type rifles, carbines, more than the Muslims

5 did.

6 Q. Do you know where the Serbs were getting

7 their weapons from?

8 A. I don't know. We could only assume.

9 Q. Do you know where the Bosniaks were getting

10 their weapons from?

11 A. Well, they had their own hunting weapons.

12 Q. So those were the weapons that you saw the

13 Bosniaks carrying, hunting weapons?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. To the best of your knowledge, and again if

16 you don't know, please don't assume, but to the best of

17 your knowledge, were the Serbs organising militarily

18 before the war started?

19 A. I did not see it, but I heard tell from

20 people who were in the field. And as I knew many

21 people all over the place working in the forestry

22 department, people would tell me, coming from the

23 Tjentiste area, that in the Vucevo region, they had

24 seen some unusual training going on of smaller groups

25 of individuals with arms.

Page 651

1 Q. To the best of your knowledge, were Muslims

2 organising militarily?

3 A. I did not hear of any such information.

4 Q. Do you know if Serb civilians were leaving

5 the area before the attack?

6 A. I do know. Exclusively the women and

7 children.

8 Q. How do you know this?

9 A. Well, I was in the courtyard, and some

10 doctors were taking away women and children, and then

11 in front of the tourist association, tourist agency,

12 near the army centre building, buses were going off.

13 According to information I got from the tourist

14 association, who knew the situation, knew these people,

15 they said that it was only the Serbs that were

16 travelling towards Serbia or Montenegro, Serbian women

17 and children.

18 Q. You said you were in the courtyard. Could

19 you just clarify where? What courtyard?

20 A. The courtyard of Lepa Brena. And there is

21 just a fence which fences off my own apartment building

22 and the Lepa Brena Block.

23 Q. So were these tourist buses that were leaving

24 Foca with the women and children?

25 A. Whether they were tourists, I don't know.

Page 652

1 They didn't have tourist posters on the buses.

2 Q. Did you actually see, from your apartment,

3 these buses going by with women and children?

4 A. Yes, you could see that from my apartment,

5 and I saw them parked, one, two buses parked in front

6 of the tourist association, which is opposite my

7 window, looking from the living room and bedroom.

8 That's what you can see from the living room and

9 bedroom windows.

10 Q. Did you recognise some of those people?

11 A. Well, I didn't pay any attention, really. I

12 didn't think that they were fleeing Foca, I just

13 thought that it was some normal trip, excursion, like a

14 school excursion, that children were going off on an

15 excursion. That's what I sort of thought, until I had

16 received supplementary information from others.

17 Q. Did you know of any Muslim civilians leaving

18 Foca shortly before the attack?

19 A. Well, there was a married couple, they were

20 teachers. It was a mixed marriage; the wife was

21 Montenegrin and the husband was a Muslim. They left

22 with their children -- they used to live in Donje

23 Polje, but before the beginning of everything that

24 happened, they left Foca. And that particular man was

25 in the -- the man who told me this was in the KP Dom

Page 653

1 with me.

2 Q. And that's later on, right?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. Did you leave Foca before the attack?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Why not?

7 A. I didn't believe that anything could happen.

8 Q. On April 7th of 1992, did you go to work?

9 A. I started off to work, but they sent me

10 back. They said, "Well there is nobody working, there

11 is nobody there. Go back home." And this is what I

12 did.

13 Q. Did you actually arrive at work, or you were

14 only partway there?

15 A. I was on my way to work. And in front of the

16 building, the entrance to the building, they said,

17 "There is no need for you to come." And so I went

18 back.

19 Q. Who told you to return?

20 A. Well, some people there. I don't really

21 remember their names. But some people who were there.

22 There were a few people in front of the entrance to the

23 building, and they would send people back home.

24 Q. On the night of the 7th of April, what

25 happened?

Page 654

1 A. On the night of the 7th of April -- first

2 of all, there was a lull, a quiet, and then an activity

3 that could be felt in the air. And people began to be

4 afraid.

5 Q. What kind of activity? Can you describe

6 that.

7 A. Well, there was a lot of hustle and bustle,

8 but there were very few people actually out in the

9 streets.

10 Q. Can you describe the start of the attack?

11 A. On the morning of the 8th, I was on my way to

12 my mother's at Donje Polje, to her house in Donje

13 Polje, but from the former army building, from the

14 window of that building, somebody shouted out to me, a

15 man. I turned round, looked, and saw a machine-gun at

16 the window and a man wearing a military uniform next to

17 it. He said, "Don't go down there. Go back." And I

18 went back.

19 Q. Did you see any barricades?

20 A. In that area, I did not.

21 Q. Did you see them in any other areas?

22 A. I didn't move around. I didn't go anywhere

23 after that. And I wasn't able to see anything.

24 Q. Can you describe the beginning of the attack,

25 when the shooting started.

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Page 656

1 A. The shooting started during the day.

2 Q. Where was the shooting directed, if you know?

3 A. In my assessment, at first the shooting was

4 aimed at Gornje Polje.

5 Q. Where were you during this time?

6 A. The apartment --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we wind up for the break,

8 please. The last question, maybe.

9 MS. KUO: I think this is actually an

10 appropriate time, and then we can continue with this.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll have a break for 30

12 minutes. We'll resume the proceedings at 11.30 hours.

13 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Shall we proceed, Ms. Kuo?

16 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I just wish to

17 inform the Court that we've been told Witness 52 is

18 available after the lunch break.

19 Q. Mr. Avdic, before the break we were talking

20 about the beginning of the attack on Foca. And could

21 you describe where you were at that time. You were in

22 your apartment; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were your wife and children there as well?

25 A. My daughter. My wife and daughter. My son

Page 657

1 was in Mostar.

2 Q. Did you stay in your building during those

3 first few days of the attack?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Why did you not leave the building?

6 A. We did not have the possibility to do so. We

7 did not have any vehicles in order to leave, and the

8 shelling and shooting had already started.

9 Q. Did your wife and daughter leave at some

10 point a few days later?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When was that?

13 A. After a lull, a lull in the combat activity

14 of shelling and shooting, we left in a vehicle. My

15 wife's sister's husband's car, and my wife and her

16 sister and the daughter, went to Gorazde.

17 Q. Did you leave with them?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Why not?

20 A. I thought that there was no problem for me,

21 that this would last only for a short while, two or

22 three days, and that this would stop, this shooting

23 would stop, and these activities.

24 Q. Did you see soldiers during the attack?

25 A. On that day?

Page 658

1 Q. The beginning -- well, on that day first.

2 A. On that day, at that moment, I did not see

3 any on the street in front of my house.

4 Q. And in later days, did you see soldiers?

5 A. In the later days, yes.

6 Q. Can you describe what they were wearing.

7 A. They wore military uniforms of the old

8 Yugoslav army, and they had weapons. Every one of them

9 had weapons.

10 Q. What kind of weapons?

11 A. In the street, primarily rifles and

12 machine-guns. The short ones. I don't know. I mean,

13 I didn't do my military service, so I don't know this

14 terminology. I don't know the names of these different

15 weapons.

16 Q. Where were these soldiers?

17 A. Part of the soldiers were staying at the

18 hotel, and there in front of the hotel, in front of the

19 army building.

20 Q. When you say hotel, you mean the Hotel

21 Zelengora; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you tell what ethnicity these soldiers

24 were?

25 A. Part of the soldiers were locals from Foca,

Page 659

1 and partly they came from elsewhere. They had

2 camouflage uniforms and also some special insignia with

3 a white band over the shoulder. At first I did not

4 know who they were.

5 Q. Did you learn later?

6 A. Later I learned that these were paramilitary

7 units from Serbia, the White Eagles, the Arkan people,

8 and partly they came from Montenegro as well.

9 Q. And the local soldiers, were you able to tell

10 their ethnicity?

11 A. They were exclusively Serbs, ethnic Serbs.

12 Q. Did you observe any military exercises

13 outside the Hotel Zelengora?

14 A. No. I personally did not. I personally did

15 not observe any.

16 Q. What did you observe the soldiers doing in

17 and around the Hotel Zelengora?

18 A. That was part of the command post where they

19 were called out and lined up, certain detachments,

20 units of the local military, and they were staying at

21 the hotel. Later, these paramilitary units from Serbia

22 and Montenegro were staying at the hotel. That's where

23 they slept and where they ate.

24 Q. Were you able to see this, the lineups and

25 the soldiers?

Page 660

1 A. From the balcony of the building and from the

2 window, from my windows and from the balcony of my

3 apartment.

4 Q. Now, from your apartment, were you also able

5 to see what was going on elsewhere in Foca during the

6 attack or the war?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe what you saw?

9 A. I saw shelling, the explosion of shells, I

10 saw fires, and I saw troop movement in vehicles, down

11 the Drina River, in the direction of Gorazde.

12 Q. What kind of vehicles did you see?

13 A. The vehicles were primarily olive-grey; some

14 of them had canvas covers, others did not; and there

15 were soldiers on them.

16 Q. Do you know to whom these vehicles belonged?

17 A. Well, probably those people who were driving

18 these vehicles, they probably belonged to them.

19 Q. Do you know who was driving -- or using the

20 vehicles?

21 A. Well, the Serb army.

22 Q. How could you tell that it was the Serb army?

23 A. On the following basis: They would often

24 pass in front of the hotel, by Brena, and towards the

25 upper bridge, and they were moving towards Gorazde.

Page 661

1 And also, the road down the Drina River, towards

2 Gorazde, I could see from my own balcony and from my

3 own apartment.

4 Q. Were there also aeroplanes involved during

5 this period?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What were they doing?

8 A. Down the Drina, in the direction of Gorazde,

9 that's the direction in which the aircraft moved, and

10 after a while, explosions were heard.

11 Q. So the explosions were heard from the

12 direction of Gorazde, but not actually in Foca itself.

13 A. Yes -- no. No. From the direction of

14 Gorazde, that's where the aircraft went. The aircraft

15 went down the Drina River, towards Gorazde.

16 Q. Now, from your apartment, you mentioned you

17 could see part of Foca burning. What part did you see

18 burning?

19 A. Gornje Polje, Prijeka Carsija, Careva Mahala,

20 part of Donje Polje.

21 MS. KUO: I would like to ask the audiovisual

22 director now to play part of Exhibit 24.

23 Q. If I could ask the witness to watch the video

24 screen.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 662

1 MS. KUO: Turn the sound off, please.

2 Q. Do you recognise the part of Foca that is

3 depicted here?

4 A. I'm not 100 percent sure, but this group of

5 houses is probably part of Donje Polje.

6 Q. Okay.

7 MS. KUO: If we can stop the videotape,

8 please.

9 A. This is --

10 Q. I'm sorry. I'll let the witness continue.

11 We're done with the videotape. Yes.

12 A. The other clip is Prijeka Carsija. That is a

13 street where there were various craftsmen, their shops,

14 that's this other clip, where you can not see a fire

15 that is actually burning but you can see buildings that

16 were burned.

17 Q. Thank you. Returning to the clip, the

18 earlier part of the clip where the houses were burning,

19 was that similar to a view that you had from your

20 apartment?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell approximately from where this

23 video clip was taken? Let's say where the camera would

24 have been.

25 A. This clip could have been taken from the

Page 663

1 hotel building, from the roof of the hotel. Part of

2 the hotel, the new part of the hotel has a flat roof.

3 That's where the cameraman could have been. On one

4 occasion, I don't know whether it was then or on some

5 other occasion, I saw a cameraman shooting some footage

6 from that position. Whether it was on this occasion or

7 some other occasion, that, I don't know. But I did see

8 a cameraman filming from the roof of the hotel.

9 Q. Now, at one point, you stated that the

10 portion shown in the video clip could be Donje Polje.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On what do you base that conclusion?

13 A. I base it on the background. Behind the

14 houses that were burning is a slope where there is pine

15 forest.

16 Q. And you recognised that pine forest?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Avdic, are you able to recognise what

19 houses were burning, whose houses were burning?

20 A. No. No, I could not.

21 Q. Did you visit Donje Polje at some point after

22 you saw houses burning there?

23 A. I went to Donje Polje several times, but

24 after late April or, rather, the beginning of May. I

25 went to Donje Polje on several occasions because that

Page 664

1 is where my mother's house is, and of my relatives as

2 well.

3 Q. When you visited Donje Polje on those

4 occasions, did you see at that time what houses were

5 burned?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Without stating names, maybe you could just

8 give us the -- do you know what ethnic group the owners

9 of the houses that were burned belonged to?

10 A. This part that I saw, all of them were Muslim

11 houses.

12 Q. Are you aware of any Serb houses that were

13 also burned around that time, in that area?

14 A. Then, I did not know, but subsequently, when

15 I was at the KP Dom, I learned from our people who were

16 working -- there were these working groups that went to

17 repair the house of the warden of the KP Dom, they went

18 to repair his house as well, which was burned -- I

19 heard these people talk about this, these people who

20 actually worked on the repair.

21 Q. And the warden was a Serb or a Bosniak?

22 A. Serb.

23 Q. And his house that was burned was in Donje

24 Polje?

25 A. Yes.

Page 665

1 Q. When you were in Donje Polje on one of these

2 visits, did you see the mosque there burning?

3 A. Once, when I was passing, I think it was on

4 the 15th of May, the mosque in Donje Polje, near a cafe

5 called Cafe Bor, the mosque was burning, and I saw a

6 fire brigade vehicle standing there by the mosque and

7 they were not trying to extinguish the fire at all.

8 There was a haystack next to it, and they were

9 protecting the haystack from burning.

10 On the 19th of May also, when I went to Donje

11 Polje, I saw a Muslim house burning on the road, just

12 by the road itself, and there's also a big apartment

13 building there. Also between this big apartment

14 building and this house, there was a vehicle of the

15 fire brigade, and they were splashing water at the wall

16 of the apartment building but they were not

17 extinguishing the fire on the smaller house.

18 Q. Let's go back to the mosques. With the

19 assistance of the usher, I would like to show this

20 witness what's been marked for identification as

21 Exhibit 178. And this has already been given to

22 Defence counsel, and I think the Judges will receive a

23 copy now.

24 This exhibit has been shown to the witness

25 and is placed on the ELMO. Could you please tell us if

Page 666

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Page 667

1 this is a map of Foca?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you've previously been shown this?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the white rectangles that are on there,

6 do those indicate locations of mosques in Foca?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the red circles, did you place those red

9 circles on this map?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What do they indicate?

12 A. Mosques also.

13 Q. And do you know the names of the mosques

14 indicated on this map?

15 A. I'll try.

16 Q. Let's start first with the red -- I'm sorry,

17 with the white rectangles and left to right. Could you

18 point to the first one and tell us the name of that

19 mosque.

20 A. The first mosque by the Drina is Tabaci. The

21 mosque in Tabaci.

22 Q. And the second white rectangle?

23 A. The second rectangle is the mosque by Sahat

24 Kula, it's called Kukavica dzamija.

25 Q. The third one, please.

Page 668

1 A. The third one on the right is Careva dzamija,

2 the emperor's mosque.

3 Q. The fourth one?

4 A. The fourth one on the right-hand side, that

5 is on the right bank of the Cehotina River, is Aladza

6 mosque.

7 Q. Do you know when the Aladza mosque was

8 destroyed, precisely?

9 A. The Aladza mosque was destroyed during the

10 month of July. I was at the KP Dom and there was a

11 terrible explosion. The windows and the glass on the

12 windows of the KP Dom were shaking, because this mosque

13 was made of stone.

14 Q. Do you know the exact date? You mentioned

15 the month of July. Do you know when exactly it was?

16 A. I cannot recall the exact date.

17 Q. But you were already detained in KP Dom; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let's go onto the fifth rectangle.

21 A. The fifth rectangle is the Musluk mosque.

22 Q. Let's take the red circles, left to right as

23 well, starting with the first on the left.

24 A. The first one is the Mahalska dzamija, the

25 Mahala mosque. That's a low mosque made of wood, and

Page 669

1 it has a wooden minaret. The minaret is this vertical

2 column. And it's a smaller mosque.

3 Q. The second red circle?

4 A. The second red circle is the Pilav mosque.

5 That's what it's called. The mosque of the Pilavs.

6 Q. The third red circle?

7 A. The third circle is above the bus station,

8 above the upper bridge. I do not know the name of that

9 mosque.

10 Q. The fourth one?

11 A. Cehotina. The fourth -- the fourth mosque is

12 by the Cafe Bor. It was torched on the 15th of May as

13 I was passing there.

14 Q. The fifth one?

15 A. The fifth circle is the Mahala mosque, also

16 with a wooden minaret. It's called Hanali mosque,

17 because it's in the Hanali Street.

18 Q. Is there one more mosque in Foca that was --

19 A. Yes. Yes, there is another mosque, which is

20 not in this picture, which is further up the Cehotina

21 River. It's the mosque in Cohodor Mahala.

22 Q. And, to the best of your knowledge, were all

23 these mosques destroyed during the war?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. KUO: Thank you. I would like to enter

Page 670

1 Exhibit 178 into evidence.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: The Defence any objection? The

3 Defence any objection? None.

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] [No

5 translation]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I didn't get the translation.

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No

8 objections, Your Honour. Your Honours, the Defence has

9 no objections to this exhibit being introduced.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The exhibit is

11 admitted into evidence. Can I have the number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is the

13 Exhibit 168 of The Prosecution's. 178. 178.

14 MS. KUO:

15 Q. During this armed conflict, Mr. Avdic, was

16 your apartment searched?

17 A. Yes. After Foca was, shall I say, taken

18 over, the military police searched apartments looking

19 for weapons in them. They searched the Muslim

20 apartments. My apartment was also searched. Mr. Zoran

21 came to my apartment, asked me if I had any weapons. I

22 said I did not. And that was it. There was no further

23 discussion. He didn't ask me anything else. The

24 neighbour who lived below me, Osman Cemo, had two

25 hunting rifles, and these were taken away, as well as a

Page 671

1 hunting knife that he had. Osman told me this. He

2 said he asked them to give him a receipt that they had

3 taken his weapons, because it was his personal

4 property. And he was told that he should contact the

5 school centre, and that all -- anything he wanted to

6 know would be told to him there.

7 In my hallway on my floor, my relative

8 Dzevad Lojo, they also came to search his apartment,

9 but they didn't find anything. And on the first floor

10 as well, below me, the Beckovic apartment, they also

11 went there, but found nothing.

12 Q. You mentioned the military police. What

13 ethnicity was that?

14 A. Exclusively Serbs.

15 Q. You mentioned that at some point Foca was, as

16 you called it, taken. What date would you place that?

17 A. Well, it might have been mid-April or up to

18 the 20th of April. Thereabouts.

19 Q. And why do you place it at that time?

20 A. Because there was a lull then. The shooting

21 stopped, the shelling stopped.

22 Q. Could you tell who was in authority at that

23 time?

24 A. In Serb hands.

25 Q. Why do you believe that?

Page 672

1 A. I believe that because part of the

2 activities, preparation activities in Foca, were

3 already underway. The Maglic shops selling foodstuffs,

4 which is located next to my apartment block, was

5 already open for customers. It was open to trade.

6 Vukadin Bejdo was the head of that particular outlet,

7 and I went to ask him whether he had anything, and he

8 gave me two or three packets of cigarettes. I didn't

9 have any money to pay with. So they gave me that, and

10 then they kept the shop open. It wasn't closed any

11 more.

12 Afterwards, at the end of April, the

13 beginning of May, I can't exactly remember when this

14 was, Radio Foca broadcast the beginning of economic

15 activities. And they appealed to the population to

16 return, that schools were being opened, that the

17 general business -- that people would be open for

18 business, and they appealed to children to go back to

19 school, because schools were being opened, and life --

20 these kind of activities continued.

21 Some of the Muslims returned. Amongst them

22 were the daughter of the man who was with me, Asim

23 Budimir.

24 Q. Perhaps not mention names at this point. So

25 there were some Muslims that returned as a result of

Page 673

1 announcements by authorities that it was safe to

2 return; is that right?

3 A. Yes. But part of the Muslims, the Muslim

4 families, returned; that is to say, those who had mixed

5 marriages, where either the wife was a Serb or

6 Montenegrin, or the husband was, one or the other in

7 this type of mixed marriage, mixed couples.

8 Q. Could you tell which authorities were making

9 these announcements?

10 A. The Serbian authorities. They had

11 established the normal run of things. The economy was

12 working and so were other companies. Maglic was

13 working. And on the basis of that information, I went

14 to see the director of the Maglic Company to report for

15 work, and I was told that, "If we need you, we'll call

16 you." But I never received a call to go to work.

17 Q. When you reported to work that time, did you

18 see any of your colleagues there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were they Serb or Bosniak colleagues?

21 A. They were all Serbs: The director, the

22 technical director, the commercial director, the head

23 of the accountancy department. And he gave me some

24 bonds, instead of money, which replaced money, for me

25 to be able to buy foodstuffs in the Maglic shop, like

Page 674

1 some food stamps.

2 Q. Did you feel free to go outside during this

3 time?

4 A. For safety reasons, I went to the SUP, to

5 report there. They said there was no need. I asked

6 for a sort of permit to move around, and they said,

7 "There's no need for us to issue that because you can

8 move around freely." And so I would go to Donje Polje,

9 to take some things from my mother's house, some of the

10 more valuable property we had there, and from my

11 relatives, to move it to my own apartment, and I

12 thought that when they come back, I would have these

13 things for safekeeping and then return them to them

14 once they returned.

15 Q. When you were outside or, indeed, even when

16 you were in your apartment, did you continue to see

17 soldiers on the street?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Were these exclusively Serb soldiers?

20 A. Serb soldiers, local ones, and ones who had

21 come in from outside.

22 Q. Did you notice any houses burning in May?

23 A. One or two houses would be burning every

24 day.

25 Q. Did you see how those fires were set?

Page 675

1 A. Well, yes. The people that set fire to them

2 had canisters of petrol and they would spill the petrol

3 over the houses and set fire to them. And as a rule,

4 two or three houses would be ablaze every day, and I

5 could see this from my balcony and from the windows of

6 my apartment.

7 Q. Can you describe the people you saw setting

8 these fires?

9 A. I couldn't recognise the people, I wasn't

10 able to recognise them because I was looking through my

11 binoculars, but for the most part, they were wearing

12 military uniforms.

13 Q. Could you tell whether there was a pattern in

14 the houses that were being burned?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Where were these houses? What

17 neighbourhoods?

18 A. The houses were from Donje Polje, Gornje

19 Polje, Careva Mahala, Sukovac, that is, across the

20 Drina River, on the left bank of the Drina.

21 Q. Did you know who owned those houses?

22 A. Well, we were able to pinpoint some of the

23 houses and determine who they were. Of course, I

24 didn't know all the owners. But the ones I did know, I

25 could make out, yes.

Page 676

1 Q. What ethnicity were the owners?

2 A. Muslims.

3 Q. Were you arrested at some point?

4 A. Before the 19th of May, I was not.

5 Q. And on the 19th of May, can you describe what

6 happened?

7 A. On the 19th of May, I went to my mother's

8 house, and when I turned off the main road, to the

9 little street, at the crossroads, at the corner where

10 Osijan's house is and so on, I was stopped by a man

11 wearing a military uniform. He was driving a small

12 Fiat car, a Fico, and he asked me about somebody's

13 apartment, somebody who had been working -- who had

14 gone off and came back, where his house was, and I

15 explained where that particular house was. Then he

16 remembered to ask me my name and surname, and I told

17 him. He took out a list that he had in the car, he

18 looked at the list, found my name on the list, and said

19 "You are so and so. Get into the car." He swore at

20 me and took me off to the KP Dom, and that was on the

21 19th of May.

22 Q. Did he tell you why he was taking you?

23 A. Well, because I was at that post, and he

24 said, "You're the one who didn't give the asphalt

25 necessary for Celebici."

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Page 678

1 Q. Did you know what he was referring to?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Just very briefly, what was that?

4 A. It was the Sumarstvo Company. When I was

5 director of Sumarstvo, they started to lay an asphalt

6 surface on the road for Celebici, and because of

7 economic reasons, the asphalting started from the

8 Dragocava bridge, going upwards, and not from the top

9 going downwards, on the macadamised road surface, which

10 was a poor road. But it went from the bottom to top

11 because that was a better road down there, and so the

12 heavy-duty vehicles were able to take this construction

13 material up. This was economically more profitable, to

14 move from the bottom up to Celebici.

15 But the asphalt didn't reach Celebici at all,

16 and the people of Celebici insisted that the asphalt

17 should be laid from Celebici and then taken some 40

18 kilometres along a macadamised road surface downwards,

19 and this was not feasible. It was much more profitable

20 for it to go from Dragocava mosque, move the asphalt

21 along that way.

22 Q. How long ago was that incident?

23 A. I'm not quite clear on the question. Could

24 you repeat that, please?

25 Q. At the point in 1992 when you were arrested,

Page 679

1 and the person arresting you said this was the basis

2 for the arrest, how much time had passed since that

3 incident you described with the asphalt? Was it

4 something that had just happened?

5 A. No. The asphalt was four or five years ago,

6 whereas the 19th of May, 1992 was the date when I was

7 arrested.

8 Q. After your arrest, did anybody ever mention

9 this incident with the asphalt again as the basis of

10 your detention?

11 A. No. No, only on that particular occasion.

12 That individual who arrested me, he said that.

13 Q. Could you tell what ethnicity the individual

14 who arrested you was?

15 A. Quite certainly he was a Serb, and quite

16 certainly he was from the Celebici region because of

17 his knowledge of the situation.

18 Q. When you say he swore at you, what, in

19 particular, did he say?

20 A. He cursed my mother, he said, "Fuck your

21 mother. Get into the car." And my mother was already

22 dead at the time.

23 Q. You were taken to KP Dom. Were you told that

24 you would be put into solitary confinement?

25 A. The military policeman who brought me there,

Page 680

1 he told the guards to take me to the solitary

2 confinement.

3 Q. Were you taken to solitary confinement at

4 that time?

5 A. No. No.

6 Q. Can you describe KP Dom? What was it used

7 for before the war?

8 A. It was used for peacetime prisoners,

9 convicted prisoners on the basis of valid sentences

10 passed by the law courts. They were sent there to do

11 their time.

12 Q. What was KP Dom being used for when you were

13 taken there?

14 A. When I was taken there, it was exclusively

15 used for the accommodation of Muslim civilians. And

16 later on, Serbs were put there too who had committed

17 offences or crimes; they had killed each other, a Serb

18 had killed a Serb, that kind of indictment, or looting

19 or offences, things like that. Perhaps they had

20 refused mobilisation call-ups; perhaps they had been

21 drunk when they were on duty, doing guard duty, things

22 like that. And they would spend a month there, apart

23 from the ones that had been found guilty of criminal

24 offences, because there were that kind as well. Some

25 of them were sentenced to 10 or 13 years'

Page 681

1 imprisonment.

2 Q. How long were you in KP Dom?

3 A. 897 days.

4 Q. Were you ever convicted of anything?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Who was with you at KP Dom when you -- who

7 was with you at KP Dom?

8 A. In my room, later on, there were a lot of

9 intellectuals, but at first, there were all kinds of

10 people, from peasants, farmers, to intellectuals. But

11 later on, there was myself and 15 others, towards the

12 end, that is, and we were sent to a separate room.

13 Q. Were you all men?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What ethnicity were the men who were confined

16 with you?

17 A. Later on a Croat was brought in, but

18 otherwise all the others were Muslims.

19 Q. And you are not just describing the small

20 group of men; you mean throughout KP Dom, or that part

21 of KP Dom where you were?

22 A. Muslims, and with us there was one Croat

23 later on. Whereas the other part of the prison, it's

24 the same building, it's connected, the same courtyard,

25 there were Serbs there. But they were separated.

Page 682

1 Q. Among the people who were confined with you,

2 were there also sick people?

3 A. Yes. There were blind people as well. There

4 were people without arms or legs. There were sick

5 people. There was some who had been directly brought

6 to -- from the hospital, chest patients. And there

7 were doctors who were directly brought from the

8 hospital. I don't want to mention any names.

9 Q. When you arrived at KP Dom, did anybody take

10 down your name or ask you for personal data?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were you interrogated?

13 A. After some 20 days, they started the

14 interrogations in the administrative building, and they

15 called me as well, to interrogate me. They asked me

16 whether I was a SDA member, whether I had any weapons,

17 whether I was a military activist. And I was none of

18 those things. Their conduct towards me was proper.

19 Nothing happened. They just said, "You can go now."

20 And then they didn't question me any more.

21 Q. When they said, "You could go now," where

22 were you permitted to go?

23 A. Back to the room, cell, the room with the

24 other prisoners, escorted by a policeman, a guard.

25 Q. Were you permitted to leave KP Dom?

Page 683

1 A. No.

2 Q. What measures --

3 A. I apologise. Apart from when we were taken

4 to do some labour of some kind.

5 Q. But --

6 A. Work duty.

7 Q. I meant when you were told you were free to

8 go; it wasn't that you were free to leave KP Dom, you

9 were just allowed to go back to your cell.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Were you ever told that you were a prisoner

12 of war?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Were you, in fact, a civilian?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where were the other detainees from, those

17 with you?

18 A. They were from the Foca area. There was some

19 of them from Gorazde, from Cajnice, from the whole area

20 from Foca, from Ustikolina, from Tjentiste, from

21 Miljevina, Jelec, Dragocava, Slatine, all around, and

22 of course from the town of Foca itself.

23 Q. Were there also detainees from Jelec?

24 A. Yes, from Jelec, a group of 47 people came

25 from Jelec. And after the attack on Jelec, they fled

Page 684

1 to the -- took to the forests and put up in the

2 barracks -- the military barracks in Kalinovik. And

3 they were there for a time. And then they were handed

4 over to the Serbs, the prisoners.

5 Q. Did they describe the attack on their town?

6 A. Yes. When they came to the KP Dom in Foca,

7 they told me about it, because they were in a separate

8 room, actually, and two or three days later, just me, I

9 was transferred, I alone was transferred to their

10 room. They were very quiet. They didn't like to talk

11 a lot because they thought that I might be, let me say,

12 a spy of some kind, and come there to question them and

13 then to discuss them with the guards. So at first they

14 didn't like to talk much. They were too afraid to do

15 so.

16 Q. And very, very briefly, can you describe how

17 they told you their town was attacked?

18 A. It was first bombed from the air, from

19 planes. Then it was shelled by tanks, because the

20 Kalinovik barracks is not far off, and it's within

21 shooting range, so shells can reach it. So it was

22 shelled. And then later on there was infantry attack

23 from two directions, from the southern access, Glovza,

24 where the paramilitary units took part, and there was

25 another attack from the southern side by other Serb

Page 685

1 units, which surrounded them. So some of them -- the

2 only way out was to take to the forests.

3 A part of them, that is to say some 30 to 35

4 of them, did not succeed in escaping and, when the

5 Serbian soldiers entered, anybody who hadn't left

6 was -- left their houses was killed in their house.

7 The people that tried to escape, they were shot and

8 killed, and all the houses in Jelec were burnt. There

9 was the mosque there too, and that mosque was burnt

10 down as well.

11 Q. What was the ethnic composition of Jelec?

12 A. Muslim.

13 Q. Now, let's move onto the living conditions at

14 KP Dom, and I would like you also to be very brief

15 about this. But first can you describe, was it

16 crowded; what kind of food did you have; what kind of

17 hygiene were you provided?

18 A. At first in the room there were about 70 of

19 us. The room that I was in, where I was taken to

20 straightaway, there were no beds. There were just

21 mattresses and a blanket, one blanket. And we I

22 like to say we were like sardines in a tin, one next to

23 the other.

24 There was a separate space to move around

25 in. The room was bigger where you could move around.

Page 686

1 It wasn't for sleeping in. There was a toilet

2 separately, and there was water. We did have water and

3 electricity, but we did not have anything for hygiene.

4 We had no soap or toothbrushes, toothpaste, anything

5 like that. We didn't have any hot water for washing or

6 for washing our clothes or anything like that. And I

7 have to apologise for what I am going to say now, but I

8 just had one pair of pants to wear for a whole year,

9 because I was brought there in the summer.

10 Q. Was there any heating during the winter?

11 A. In 19 -- between 1992 and 1993, there wasn't

12 any heating or hot water. Water for bathing, we heated

13 using the sun, in the sunlight. But we would construct

14 something for heating water, but if we were caught

15 doing this, making this makeshift heating device, he

16 would be taken to a solitary confinement cell.

17 Q. Were you provided with any food?

18 A. We were given food, three meals a day. The

19 food was such that we would lose 200 to 250 grams a

20 day. We would go down in weight every day. When I

21 came, I weighed 95 kilos. Three months later I weighed

22 55 kilos.

23 Q. At the beginning of your detention,

24 approximately how many detainees were at KP Dom?

25 A. I assumed that there were around 500.

Page 687

1 Q. On what do you base that number? Your

2 observations?

3 A. On the basis of the fact that there was about

4 70 of us in my room. There were five rooms, depending

5 on which you were in, but there were five rooms. Five

6 times seven is 350. Very well. Later on that number

7 increased with the arrival of the people from Jelec and

8 from Trnovace, and people brought in from other areas,

9 either individuals brought in, or brought in as

10 groups. So that at one particular moment there might

11 have been about 700 prisoners in the KP Dom.

12 Q. When you were finally released from

13 detention, how many prisoners were there left?

14 A. After I was released, together with my group,

15 there were 57 of us, there were no Muslims left. Only

16 Serbs remained at the KP Dom.

17 Q. Those were the ones who had been sentenced

18 for crimes, as you mentioned earlier?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You mentioned at one point that you were

21 taken out of KP Dom for forced labour; is that correct?

22 A. Part of the prisoners were taken out for

23 forced labour, particularly to the mine in Miljevina,

24 an underground mine. About 20 to 25 of them went there

25 when the production actually started at the night.

Page 688

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

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14 The French and English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Page 689

1 Another part was forced to go to work in

2 agricultural production, that is to say, to make cattle

3 feed in the vicinity of Foca. And then others were

4 forced to prepare food supplies for the winter, for the

5 Serb army, the Bosnian Serb army. I was among those

6 who were locked in the room, except for when we were

7 taken to breakfast, lunch, and dinner. All the rest of

8 the time we were locked up in the room. We did not

9 have any contact, because it was forbidden to have

10 contact with other rooms, with our prisoners and with

11 the Serbs who were imprisoned.

12 The atmosphere in the prison -- I mean, I was

13 the first to do so, so that I would not go mad, so to

14 speak. I asked to go out to do some work, not hard

15 labour, because my health condition would not permit

16 anything like that, but I did not want to go mad in a

17 confined space.

18 So I cleaned up the dining area where we were

19 fed. I cleaned the dining area. And I prepared a bit

20 of firewood for the kitchen, for the preparation of

21 food.

22 Q. When the prisoners were taken out of KP Dom

23 for work, were they always under armed escort?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And aside from being taken out for work, were

Page 690

1 you ever allowed to leave KP Dom on your own?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you have contact with the outside world?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Let's talk, very briefly, about the soldiers

6 or guards at the KP Dom. Were there guards there?

7 A. The guards at the gate, at the entrance to

8 the KP Dom, and there were guards within the compound

9 of the KP Dom.

10 Q. What did the guards do?

11 A. The guards at the gate checked exits and also

12 how many people entered the premises. The guards

13 within the compound kept the order, checked on the

14 prisoners. I was sent to solitary confinement twice,

15 because I appeared at the window to get some

16 information from a relative of mine, to ask him about

17 my family, if possible. And when the guard saw me at

18 the window, he took me to solitary confinement for five

19 days. And that happened twice. It was strictly

20 forbidden to appear on the windows and to communicate

21 amongst ourselves, one room with another.

22 Every room was taken separately to have

23 meals, not the entire group was taken to get meals.

24 Q. What ethnicity were the guards?

25 A. Serb ethnicity.

Page 691

1 Q. Were there also soldiers at KP Dom?

2 A. From time to time, but not very often, they

3 would get in. I think there was a group from the area

4 of Nevesinje that had come allegedly to get a group of

5 Muslims that they were supposed to take for an

6 exchange. They were armed with a machine-gun then.

7 One of them carried a machine-gun, the one who had

8 these military weapons. The guards, at first, were

9 armed; they had rifles, machine-guns, batons. Every

10 evening, after dinner, two of them or three of them

11 would come into the room, armed, and they took the

12 roll-call of the prisoners in the room. After 1994,

13 they would come without these weapons. And they also

14 came in uniform. There was a single type of guard

15 uniform.

16 Q. What kind of uniforms did the soldiers wear?

17 A. The soldiers wore olive-grey uniforms of the

18 Yugoslav army. At first, when the camp inmates from

19 Livade were transferred to the KP Dom, there were these

20 guards from elsewhere that wore camouflage uniforms.

21 Q. These soldiers that you described, what

22 ethnicity were they?

23 A. Serb, Montenegrin.

24 Q. Were prisoners ever taken out and told that

25 they were going to be exchanged?

Page 692

1 A. Some people were taken out. Their names were

2 called out and they were told that they would be

3 exchanged, they were told that they should take all

4 their things with them because they were going to be

5 exchanged. There were others whose names were called

6 out in rooms, they were not told that they would be

7 exchanged. Without taking their personal belongings,

8 they would be taken to the gate. And then there was a

9 third group, towards the end of September, there were

10 about 35 of them, also, they were not told that they

11 were to be exchanged; they were collected in haste and

12 taken away from the camp.

13 With your permission, it is characteristic

14 that these groups that were taken out in the evening,

15 smaller groups of five or six, during the months of

16 June and July, after their names would be called out

17 after dinner, they were taken to the office in the

18 administrative building. After leaving the compound,

19 and when they reached these offices in about ten

20 minutes, moans could be heard, cries, also blows, and

21 sometimes shots would be heard as well, shots from

22 firearms. Then there would be some quiet.

23 After about ten minutes, vehicles could be

24 heard, they would be ignited. When a vehicle would

25 start, it would go across the bridge; the bridge was

Page 693

1 right there. The car would stop, with its lights still

2 turned on, on the Drina bridge, and we would hear

3 something hitting the surface of the water, as if you

4 were throwing a sack of cement into the water. I

5 personally heard that and saw that because I was in

6 that kind of a room, where I could see all of that, in

7 room number 20.

8 Q. And the men who were taken out on those

9 occasions, did you ever see them again?

10 A. I said that in the period of the months of

11 June and July, five or six such groups of people, about

12 35, were taken out, but not every group was taken in a

13 vehicle to the Drina bridge, what I just described.

14 Where the other groups were, I don't know. But out of

15 these men, all of them are missing. None of these men

16 are still among the living.

17 Q. Were you ever personally beaten at KP Dom?

18 A. No. Although I was in solitary confinement

19 three times.

20 Q. And each of those was as punishment for

21 something?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was the third time? You mentioned the

24 two already.

25 A. The third time, as we were getting ready for

Page 694

1 the winter of 1993, I wore summer trousers. I said a

2 few minutes ago that I only had one pair of

3 underpants. I tried to guard myself from the frost and

4 cold. I cut up an old blanket and tried to make a pair

5 of leggings, and the policeman caught me doing this and

6 he took me to solitary confinement for five days. Of

7 course, he took this away from me.

8 Q. Would you say that all Serbs mistreated you

9 during your detention?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Without giving any names, could you describe

12 examples of when you were not mistreated or treated, in

13 fact, well?

14 A. I was not mistreated, I was not beaten, I was

15 not even slapped in the face, but there were

16 provocations. When I worked within the KP Dom

17 compound, even the Serbs who were detained called me a

18 Turk, and whatever, and also part of the guards said

19 that I was a thief, that I only wanted to work around

20 the kitchen so that I could get a slice of bread from

21 the kitchen. There was no other mistreatment.

22 Sorry. One more case. I was a heart

23 patient, I had some medicines, and after a prisoner

24 tried to escape unsuccessfully, Todovic, we called him

25 Bunda, issued the following order: Food rations that

Page 695

1 were already poor would be halved and all medicines

2 would be taken away, and everything else we had. We

3 would write something, not about the conditions there

4 or -- it wasn't that we had some kind of a diary that

5 anybody wanted to keep. There was a teacher of French,

6 for example, so we tried to study French, we tried to

7 study German, all this was taken away from us, and all

8 the medicines were taken away.

9 I had hidden some of this in the mattress;

10 however, one guard found this in my mattress. He cut

11 up the mattress and he found these medicines. He

12 double-checked; he also made me take off my clothes,

13 even my underpants, because he thought that I might

14 have hidden some medicines in there also. So that was

15 the kind of mistreatment that I was speaking about.

16 Q. Were there also small kindnesses shown to you

17 by Serbs that you came into contact with in KP Dom?

18 A. There were Serbs who were detained, persons

19 from the town of Foca, and there were others from the

20 outside who were kind. Although they didn't dare to,

21 and I wouldn't dare to, we would ask each other how we

22 were, or they would give you a slice of bread or two.

23 MS. KUO: With the usher's help, I would like

24 to show the witness Exhibits 45 and 45/1. Exhibit 45/1

25 is a new exhibit which Defence counsel should have

Page 696

1 received during the break, and the Judges, I believe,

2 will get copies as well.

3 Q. Mr. Avdic, were you registered with the

4 International Committee of the Red Cross at one point,

5 while you were imprisoned?

6 A. Yes. On the 24th of October, or December, in

7 1993.

8 Q. And is Exhibit number 45 a certificate from

9 the Red Cross showing that you were registered on that

10 date?

11 A. The certificate says the 14th of December.

12 The certificate says the 14th of December and, in fact,

13 it was on the 24th of December.

14 Q. And that was the first time that you had any

15 contact with the Red Cross; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. Looking at Exhibit 45/1, the second page will

18 have the B/C/S. Is that a certificate that confirms

19 that you were registered as a detainee at KP Dom, from

20 the 19th of May 1992 until the 6th of October 1994?

21 A. This is a certificate that was issued by the

22 Republican -- I don't know what it's called --

23 Commission. Commission. The State Commission for the

24 Exchange of Prisoners of War in Sarajevo. There is a

25 difference between the certificate issued by the

Page 697

1 International Red Cross from the day I was brought to

2 the KP Dom and the actual situation, when I was brought

3 to the KP Dom. The actual situation, that is when I

4 was actually brought in, is referred to in the

5 certificate issued by the State Commission for the

6 Exchange of Prisoners of War of the Republic of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. And the correct date of when you were brought

9 to KP Dom is the 19th of May 1992; is that right?

10 A. Yes. Yes. That is correct.

11 Q. When were you finally released from KP Dom?

12 A. We were released from the KP Dom in Foca on

13 the 5th of October 1994, and we were exchanged in

14 Sarajevo on the 6th of October 1994.

15 Q. During the entire time of your detention,

16 were you able to have any contact with your family?

17 A. No, not until the Red Cross came.

18 Q. When were you finally able to see your family

19 again?

20 A. The beginning of January 1995.

21 Q. And that was the first time you saw your

22 family since 1992; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I have no further

25 questions for this witness. I would like to enter

Page 698

1 Exhibits 45 and 45/1 in evidence.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Any comments from the Defence

3 on the exhibit?

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

5 Honour. I have just been informed that Exhibit 45 is

6 an exhibit that we have not received. Although we were

7 told what it's about, that is to say, that this is when

8 the Red Cross registered Mr. Avdic, we have not

9 received this document. And we have no objections

10 whatsoever to 45/1. We haven't got any objections to

11 Exhibit 45 either, but we would just like to receive a

12 copy, please.

13 With your permission, the Prosecutor said

14 that they gave us a copy during the break, but they

15 didn't, actually.

16 MS. KUO: Exhibit 45 was previously disclosed

17 in the trial binders. We do have extra copies, if

18 Defence would like them in addition.

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] It would be

20 a good thing, if you had an extra copy.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The extra copies

22 can go. Otherwise the exhibits are entered into

23 evidence. Can we have the numbers, Ms. Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The

25 documents -- Exhibits 45 and 45/1 of Prosecutor.

 

Page 699

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

2 Now, I would like to -- it's almost -- we

3 have some seven minutes. What I would like to find out

4 from the Defence, because they said this is the witness

5 from whom documents were not with them this morning.

6 Now, can they collect the documents during lunch hour?

7 We understand that this witness -- the health of this

8 witness is not good, so we wouldn't like to detain him

9 another day. So if the Defence can collect their

10 documents during the lunch break, so that

11 cross-examination can be done this afternoon, and the

12 witness, as much as possible, should be released

13 today.

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am sorry,

15 Your Honour, I don't think we could make it today.

16 Perhaps it would be better to leave the witness for

17 tomorrow, because perhaps it would be too tiring for

18 him to work in the afternoon. As well, of course, we

19 are bearing in mind the condition of his health.

20 If I understood you correctly, Your Honour,

21 my understanding was that in the afternoon we would

22 move on with number 52.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I am changing that simply

24 because we are almost at lunch break, and I was

25 wondering whether you could collect your documents

Page 700

1 during the lunch break, because your reason was that

2 you had left your documents for cross-examination.

3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] May we just

4 take a short break to consult, please?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: While we are consulting, maybe

6 I can ask the witness -- I would like to find out from

7 the witness whether he would rather rest this afternoon

8 and come for cross-examination tomorrow morning, or if

9 he -- whether he feels well enough to continue this

10 afternoon with cross-examination from the Defence

11 counsel.

12 THE WITNESS: I would kindly ask, Your

13 Honour, and I would kindly ask the Defence to accept

14 this, that we continue, please. If I had to

15 reappear -- I mean, if I get ill again, my medical

16 documents and my personal doctors are in Maastricht,

17 not here. The day before yesterday, in the evening,

18 when I was in the hospital, they did not have any

19 records of my illness and my type of illness, you see;

20 whereas in Maastricht they have all these documents.

21 And it is certain that if something happens, I will be

22 treated much better in Maastricht than here. That is

23 the reason for which I am kindly asking you to do

24 this.

25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

Page 701

1 with your permission, I am not sure that the Defence

2 will finish their cross-examination today, because the

3 cross-examination is going to take at least as long as

4 the direct examination took. So even if we accept to

5 work this afternoon, the question is whether we'll be

6 able to finish this afternoon. I'm sure we will not be

7 able to finish this afternoon, as a matter of fact.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Even if the Defence counsels

10 think we will not finish cross-examination, because of

11 the health of the witness, we would rather start the

12 cross-examination this afternoon. So please do go and

13 pick up your documents so that you can start

14 cross-examination of this witness this afternoon.

15 The idea is to release him as early as

16 possible, instead of detaining him for another day.

17 We'll now break for lunch and we'll resume

18 our proceedings at 1430 hours.

19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 702

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness. The

3 Prosecution completed their examination-in-chief before

4 we closed for lunch. We are now going to start

5 cross-examination by the Defence counsel.

6 Mr. Prodanovic.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we may,

10 the Defence would like to start off by questioning the

11 witness, and the Defence counsel of Mr. Vukovic would

12 like to start off the cross-examination, with your

13 permission.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have

16 divided up the questions that we're going to ask and

17 the areas we wish to cover between us. So for the sake

18 of efficiency, we would start first; that is to say, I,

19 as the Defence counsel of Mr. Vukovic, would like to

20 start the cross-examination, if that is all right with

21 you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. You can go along as

23 you have arranged your defence. So you can start.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

25 this morning -- can you hear me? Is everything

Page 703

1 working?

2 Your Honour, this morning -- can you hear the

3 English interpretation?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we can hear, and we are

5 waiting for you to start.

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It's

7 high time I did start.

8 This morning, before we began, we proposed

9 that we have a screen around -- no, that is to say,

10 that we have a panel because we wish to place some

11 photographs on a board. We asked to have this board or

12 panel or easel set up for tomorrow. We wanted this for

13 tomorrow because we didn't know the order of the

14 witnesses. But if possible, we would like to ask to

15 have this set up today.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean you want it for the

17 cross-examination of this witness?

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's

19 right, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Where is the usher?

21 There are no questions which do not require photographs

22 from you?

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, there

24 are but, how shall I put it, they are questions of

25 protocol, so to speak, for the witness. Most of the

Page 704

1 questions that I wish to ask the witness, I would be

2 greatly assisted if I had a panel or board up. But I

3 don't think there is any problem with respect to

4 starting right away. So I shall do so.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

6 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. You told us that you have serious health

9 problems.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If, at any time, you should feel poorly,

12 please let us know and we shall have a pause, if you

13 feel unwell.

14 I should like to start off by asking you the

15 following question: Did you, and if so, can you tell

16 us when, make a statement, give a statement, to

17 individuals and employees of the International

18 Tribunal?

19 A. A statement to the International Tribunal I

20 gave in my place of residence two years ago or

21 thereabouts, approximately two years ago.

22 Q. Did you --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: In the meantime, can you give

24 your photographs to the usher so he can put them up?

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of

Page 705

1 course, Your Honour. I would like to tender them as

2 evidence as well, as they come up. But there's no

3 problem, they can be placed on the board

4 straight away.

5 I would just like some assistance. I'm not

6 quite sure how this works. I have sufficient copies of

7 the photograph for the Prosecution, for the Trial

8 Chamber, for the Registry, for the witness, and that is

9 why we have several copies. Is that sufficient?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then they should be

11 distributed. And the other question is what is your

12 intention? Do you wish to have them produced into

13 evidence through this witness, or are you simply asking

14 questions about them?

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like

16 to introduce them as evidence through this witness.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: That will depend if he will

18 know them. So we will have them numbered. Can they be

19 distributed then?

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This is

21 Exhibit 1 --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: But these are Defence

23 exhibits.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Defence

25 exhibits, yes, Your Honour.

Page 706

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So the registrar will number

2 them because she has a sequence.

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

4 if I may --

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The first

6 photograph will be marked D5.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: And whenever discussing the

8 document, please refer to it as D5.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

10 Honour. Before doing so, I just wanted to tender into

11 evidence the statement given by the witness, but we

12 started talking about the photographs, so this was

13 interrupted.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: So you go ahead with the

15 statement, show it to him; did he make the usual

16 prerequisites, please.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. May Mr. Safet Avdic, the witness, be shown

19 the statement. The statement is FWS-65. It is the

20 statement given on the 16th and 17th of October 1995,

21 in the language which the gentleman knows full well.

22 And he will be able to recognise the document.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Please go ahead with your

24 questions.

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

Page 707

1 I think the witness is checking through the document.

2 Q. Is that your statement?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. I should like to request that the witness's

5 statement of the 16th and 17th of October 1995 be

6 tendered into evidence.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any comments from the

8 Prosecution?

9 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Numbering, Madam

11 Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The witness

13 statement will be D6.

14 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Avdic, do you have before you the

16 photograph which has been numbered D5?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Questions, please.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you recognise what is on the photograph?

21 And if so, could you tell us what it is, describe it to

22 us, please.

23 A. This is the photograph of the building I

24 lived in. To the left is the Brena Block.

25 Q. Can you tell us, in more precise terms, where

Page 708

1 it was you lived, which was your apartment, on the

2 first or second floor?

3 A. My apartment was on the second floor.

4 Q. Very well. On the second floor.

5 JUDGE HUNT: By the second floor, we better

6 get it straight, because different people understand

7 different things. Do you mean the one immediately

8 above the ground floor or the second one above the

9 ground floor?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness point, because

11 he has it.

12 A. The apartment underneath the roof.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I should like to ask the witness to indicate

16 which the apartment was.

17 Has everybody received a copy of this

18 photograph, which I have as number 2, but I would like

19 to tender it into evidence.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The one we are receiving now?

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Are you through with D5?

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

25 Honour, I am.

Page 709

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

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14 The French and English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Page 710

1 JUDGE MUMBA: And you want it admitted into

2 evidence, this photograph?

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

6 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The second

8 photograph will be D7.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Can you see the second photograph? Can you

11 tell us if you recognise what is on the photograph? If

12 so, could you describe it for us, please.

13 A. This photograph shows the apartments

14 underneath the roof, the top floor apartments. Now,

15 whether you like to call it the second floor, third

16 floor, I don't know.

17 Q. Can you recognise the apartment on the

18 photograph? Would you agree that that is your

19 apartment?

20 A. The railing on the balcony, the windows and

21 going onto the balcony should be my apartment, because

22 my apartment has this same balcony railing. It also

23 has doors giving out onto the balcony and two windows

24 on either side of the door leading onto the balcony.

25 Q. Can I assist you here. Exhibit D5 and

Page 711

1 Exhibit D6, which we are looking at at the moment,

2 shows us two drainpipes. Do you agree?

3 A. On the left-hand side.

4 Q. I am talking about Exhibit D5. Can we agree

5 that there are two drainpipes?

6 A. The first photograph. Yes, sir, there are

7 two drainpipes. Yes.

8 Q. And we can see --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Which are the drainpipes?

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The

11 drainpipes are made of tin and they take the water

12 draining from the roof.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: In my photograph, is the one at

14 the end of the apartment not the drainage pipe?

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, quite

16 right, there is one at the end. Your Honour, you are

17 quite right. I didn't happen to notice the one at the

18 end. Yes, there are, indeed, three drainpipes.

19 A. Perhaps on the left-hand side.

20 Q. What we can see. Let's take what we can

21 see.

22 A. I see two. I see two.

23 Q. Very well. Thank you. On the photograph,

24 which is Exhibit D5, we also see another building which

25 is referred to as the Lepa Brena building?

Page 712

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am doing

3 this, Your Honour, to be able to identify the apartment

4 in which the witness lived.

5 Q. Perhaps it would help me if you told me how

6 long you lived in that particular apartment?

7 A. Five or six years.

8 Q. Thank you. Did you live in the building

9 which borders onto the building that we call the Lepa

10 Brena Block?

11 A. I lived in the lower building, yes, next to

12 the Lepa Brena Block.

13 Q. So it is this building in the photo?

14 A. If that is the building next to the Lepa

15 Brena Block, yes.

16 Q. But this is the Lepa Brena Block?

17 A. You mean the high-rise? On the left-hand

18 side there is a high-rise, and it is the Lepa Brena

19 Block. Is that what you are saying?

20 Q. I am asking you, Witness.

21 A. If this is the Lepa Brena Block?

22 Q. Yes. But do you recognise the Lepa Brena

23 Block?

24 A. Lepa Brena was a higher building. It was

25 higher than the building I lived in.

Page 713

1 Q. Look at the building on the photograph, which

2 is Exhibit D5, the higher building. That building is

3 known under the term Lepa Brena, the Lepa Brena Block?

4 A. Yes, I assume that is the Lepa Brena Block.

5 Q. Thank you. I presume that you then assume

6 that this is the building you lived in.

7 A. Well, in that case, yes, it would be that

8 building. However, the only problem is, the satellite

9 antenna, and those bother me.

10 Q. The satellite antennae are muddling you.

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to

13 give the Trial Chamber an explanation, and to my

14 colleagues as well. These photographs were taken 15 to

15 20 days ago, so perhaps that is why the number of

16 satellite antennae is disconcerting.

17 A. While I lived in that building, there weren't

18 any of these antennae on my building, and that is what

19 is slightly disconcerting.

20 Q. Well, if we forget about the antennae, are

21 those the buildings?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a

24 series of photographs now, so could the usher please

25 help me?

Page 714

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The third

2 photograph will be D8.

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I

4 proceed, Your Honour?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes, please proceed.

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Sir, do you recognise --

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Oh, I'm

9 sorry. First of all, I apologise to the Court and to

10 my colleagues for the quality of these photographs and

11 for our mode of presentation. Believe me, this is

12 almost the top level of technical performance that we

13 can accomplish. We wish we could have satellite

14 images, but we can't. That's why these photographs are

15 placed on strange paper.

16 Q. A question. Sir, do you recognise the

17 buildings on this series of photographs?

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise

19 for that. Please, these photographs that I just

20 tendered, could they be admitted into evidence?

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is D8.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Was there an answer to the

23 question? There was no answer to the question on the

24 transcript.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness didn't answer. We

Page 715

1 didn't get the answer from the witness.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the

3 question?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: You asked whether he was able

5 to recognise these buildings in the photograph. He

6 didn't answer, did he? He should answer, he shouldn't

7 just nod his head.

8 A. The building on the left-hand side, where

9 part of the terrace or the balcony can be seen, below

10 is the park, a birch tree, that is the building that I

11 lived in. Opposite that building, the first building

12 is the old army centre, as it was called, the old army

13 centre. The other building with three balconies, down

14 here are the offices of the tourist association. And

15 should I say who lived in these three buildings?

16 Q. No. No, there's no need for that.

17 A. And there is a row of buildings towards

18 Maglic, connected to Maglic.

19 Q. How many balconies does your apartment have?

20 A. My apartment has two balconies facing the

21 main street.

22 Q. This is the balcony facing the main street;

23 right?

24 A. There is also a balcony from the dining room

25 that faces the other side.

Page 716

1 Q. But this is the balcony facing the main

2 street?

3 A. Yes. The balcony is -- there's another

4 balcony on the other side, from the dining room.

5 Q. From this side, from the balcony, can you see

6 the Zelengora Hotel? And if you can, which part of the

7 hotel can you see?

8 A. From this balcony, one can perhaps see a

9 corner of the terrace, or rather the extension of the

10 restaurant of the hotel, and on the other side, the new

11 part of the hotel and also part of the parking lot.

12 Q. All right.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have what the witness

14 has just described pointed out to us on the ELMO,

15 please? That is, part of the hotel and the parking lot

16 he was discussing.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes

18 [indicates].

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Please, for the purpose of precision, could

21 the witness exactly show on this series of photographs

22 what part of the hotel he is referring to and the

23 parking lot, in that series, please.

24 A. This is between the park [indicates], and the

25 part of the hotel that is shielded from this part by

Page 717

1 the balcony, in front is a restaurant.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Defence

3 counsel, please.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I know that you know where this is, but I am

7 interested in having you point this out to us in this

8 photograph. I mean, the fact that it is shielded,

9 that's a different thing.

10 A. You mean when I lean against the railing, I

11 see this, and right now, on this photograph, one cannot

12 see that part of the restaurant.

13 Q. I have to put another question to you in

14 order to be very precise. Your apartment is not the

15 last apartment in this series. It faces the hotel.

16 After your apartment, is there another apartment?

17 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. And does this apartment have a terrace as

19 well?

20 A. Yes, it does. Yes, it does, all the way to

21 the end of the building.

22 Q. Then you'll have to explain this to me.

23 A. I want to be as precise as possible. I went

24 to these apartments, to these buildings, they were my

25 neighbours, and they would come to see me.

Page 718

1 Q. This is a new statement. I'm sure we are

2 going to discuss this matter, but --

3 A. This is a different question.

4 Q. This is something that you did not

5 mention today. Today, in your statement here, before

6 the Tribunal, and also in terms of what you said here

7 in the statement that you recognised as your own, you

8 said that you were only watching from your balcony, you

9 did not say that you were watching from your

10 neighbours' balconies.

11 A. I can see from my own balcony when I lean

12 against the railing. But then also in our building, I

13 also visited apartments where Serbs lived and where

14 Muslims lived, because we were still neighbours and we

15 still visited each other and went to see one another.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The usher

18 please help me. I would like to have another series of

19 photographs distributed. I would like to tender this

20 photograph into evidence. I hope my learned colleagues

21 are not opposed to this?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number first.

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The fourth

24 photograph will be D9.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: And can the witness first look

Page 719

1 at it, and we'll see whether or not he can recognise

2 it, what is on the photograph.

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

4 Honour.

5 A. I assume that this is the other side of the

6 building, the back side.

7 Q. Which building?

8 A. Our building.

9 Q. You mean your building, the building that you

10 lived in?

11 A. I think so, but I'm not sure.

12 Q. Can you give us a more accurate assumption,

13 in terms of which balcony could be yours?

14 A. In this photograph, no.

15 Q. Very well. Could you tell me, from the other

16 balcony, from the other balcony of your apartment, what

17 can you see from there; for example, when you look from

18 the left to the right-hand side. Do you remember?

19 A. On the opposite side, the balcony on the

20 opposite side, you can see part of the hotel with the

21 flat roof, the extension of the hotel that was built

22 subsequently with the flat roof.

23 Q. What else can you see?

24 A. Also, part of a space and a street that leads

25 to Medzurace. Also, there is a privately owned house

Page 720

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between

14 The French and English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Page 721

1 just below the hotel. I think that it is Ranko

2 Vladic's house.

3 Q. From your balcony, can one see the mountain

4 house that we discussed today?

5 A. At Dub.

6 Q. I beg your pardon?

7 A. At the so-called Dub, D-u-b, near the KP Dom.

8 Q. Dub is a hill, I assume?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we proceed, you were

11 asking whether D8, this is the series of photographs,

12 and D9, could be admitted into evidence.

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to hear the

16 Prosecution. Any objection?

17 MS. KUO: I don't have an objection to D8,

18 but I don't believe the witness has identified D9.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: You understand. So D8 is

20 admitted into evidence, but not D9. So D9 will not

21 be. Okay. Can we first have them numbered before you

22 start asking.

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The fifth

24 photograph is D10.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead with your

Page 722

1 questions, please.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, do you recognise some of the buildings

4 in these photographs?

5 A. Yes. The left-hand photograph.

6 Q. What is in front of you? Does that match the

7 view that you have from your other balcony?

8 A. On the other side?

9 Q. On the other side.

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Can you describe to us what you see in these

12 photographs?

13 A. On the left-hand side there is part of our

14 building to the left, perhaps with half a window, a

15 small privately owned house on the corner, and the new

16 part of the hotel. And there is a chimney up there on

17 the flat part of the roof. And the white is a building

18 on the other side of the Cehotina River, a tall

19 building on the right bank of the Cehotina River.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Any more questions, please.

21 Time is ticking.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry,

23 Your Honour. I am waiting for the witness to finish.

24 He just described the first photograph.

25 A. The middle photograph was most probably taken

Page 723

1 from our building on the opposite side, where part of

2 the sheds can be seen and part of the houses. And in

3 the background one can see some of the apartment

4 buildings on the right bank of the Cehotina. Also, one

5 can see part of the hills on the right bank of the

6 Cehotina, that is Celovine.

7 Q. What is on the third photograph?

8 A. The third photograph is probably the old

9 factory that was there that made stockings or I don't

10 know what. It's on the corner and it's the closest to

11 the yard of Lepa Brena.

12 Q. For how many years did you live in Foca

13 before you left Foca?

14 A. From 1945.

15 Q. Then you are probably familiar with this area

16 that I asked you about?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell me whether these photographs,

19 this series of photographs that is in front of you, is

20 that what it looks like in real life? I am just trying

21 to explain, were these photographs tampered with, I

22 mean the order in which they are presented, is this a

23 single entity? Is this a single view?

24 A. The left-hand photograph -- I mean, the last

25 one on the left-hand side is not clear enough to me.

Page 724

1 It is not clear enough to me, and it is not easy for me

2 to determine what this is.

3 Q. Let us try to explain this. Buildings can be

4 there and then they don't have to be there, but if we

5 look at hills, hills in the background. Do these

6 photographs follow the geography, the relief?

7 A. Yes. Yes. These two photographs. Yes.

8 Q. Which two photographs?

9 A. The first one and the second one.

10 Q. If we look at it from the left-hand side.

11 A. No, from the right.

12 Q. Very well. From the right then. On any of

13 these photographs do you recognise a hill called Dub,

14 referred to as Dub?

15 A. I can't recognise this on these photographs,

16 no.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: On D10, does the Prosecution

18 have any objection?

19 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The next

22 photograph is D11.

23 A. Your Honours, may I take a look at the

24 previous photographs, have one more look at the

25 previous photographs, please?

Page 725

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Which number?

2 A. The three that have been joined. I don't

3 know their number.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please go ahead.

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. May I help you. The third photograph, or the

7 first photograph, taking it from the left, was taken

8 with another type of film. That is why it is lighter

9 in shading than the other two photographs. At least,

10 that's what I was told by the photographer. He

11 explained to me why that particular one was a little

12 lighter.

13 A. On the middle photograph, the one in the

14 middle, where you can see the road serpentining

15 upwards.

16 Q. Yes, I follow you.

17 A. The winding road going up is on the left-hand

18 side of Dub, so that for that reason it could be on

19 this elevation here.

20 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to the last

21 photograph now.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Once the

23 witness has had a chance to study the photograph, I

24 would like to tender it into evidence.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: He first has to identify what

Page 726

1 is on the photograph before we can talk about admission

2 into evidence, please.

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

4 Honour.

5 Q. Sir, do you recognise some of the buildings

6 or the configuration of the terrain, rather, on this

7 photograph which is before you?

8 A. I cannot identify the exact location, but

9 part of the pine trees and conifers, I assume, could be

10 an area which is around the Dub area. And around Foca,

11 this type of pine tree is to be found, as well as oak

12 trees, which are fairly similar to each other, and they

13 tend to be on undulating hills. And at the very top,

14 at the peak, you can see a building of some kind.

15 Q. Do you recognise that building?

16 A. I can't recognise it on the basis of this

17 photograph because it's just a dot.

18 Q. Thank you for that dot. Let's try going

19 about this in a different way. The elevation that we

20 call Dub, looking at it from your other balcony, is it

21 behind the Zelengora Hotel and is it to the left of it?

22 A. Yes, the left.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go

24 back, with Your Honours' permission, to the previous

25 group of photographs, which was D10, Exhibit D10.

Page 727

1 Q. The first photograph, on the right-hand side,

2 does that show the Zelengora Hotel, the highest white

3 building? I think that you described the newly

4 built-on part of the hotel.

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. So if that is that particular building, is

7 the Dub Mountain behind and to the left?

8 A. It is to the left.

9 Q. Behind the Zelengora Hotel, looking at it

10 from your balcony.

11 A. Towards the left, up above the KP Dom.

12 Q. Let's leave the KP Dom for the moment.

13 A. You provided me with this exhibit. You gave

14 me two exhibits, a big photograph and a small

15 photograph, and they are separate. The first

16 photograph -- this photograph and the first are

17 identical, but they incorporate part of the forest from

18 the first photograph.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As we have

21 ascertained that the photographs are, indeed,

22 identical, may I now tender this photograph as an

23 exhibit, please?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

25 MS. KUO: No.

Page 728

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. They are tendered

2 as exhibits into evidence.

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I

4 continue, Your Honour?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Could you tell me, explain to me, the

8 following: In your statement, given on the 16th and

9 17th of October, 1995, and from what you said here

10 before the Trial Chamber today, you said that from your

11 balcony, you were able to see the positioning of

12 soldiers in front of the Zelengora Hotel. Bearing in

13 mind these photographs, would you like to explain to me

14 how you were able to do so?

15 A. We were in the building, and I said that you

16 could see the front part from the balcony. There was a

17 space where the units were deployed, in the presence of

18 soldiers, and a roll-call was taken.

19 In the forefront, there is a space where I

20 can see this from my own balcony, from my very own

21 balcony. The entrance to the hotel, I can see from my

22 neighbour's balcony, whose windows look out. And I

23 went to visit my neighbour, he is a Serb. We were in

24 the house, in the building, the whole time, until I was

25 taken off to the prison. So we would go to each

Page 729

1 other's apartments before I was taken away. And my

2 neighbour's window looks directly onto the hotel.

3 From my own balcony, in front of the parking

4 lot and where this space was, you could see the

5 positioning of the soldiers.

6 Q. From balcony 1 or balcony 2, could you see

7 the lining up of those soldiers?

8 A. From the balcony which looks out onto the

9 main street.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like

11 to ask the usher to show the series of photographs to

12 the witness once again, the photographs numbered D5,

13 Exhibit D5, to be shown to the witness -- D8, I do

14 apologise, Exhibit D8, the long photograph.

15 A. The open space where the vehicles were

16 parked, you have a red car there, there's a red car and

17 there's a blue car or green car, and you have this

18 whole space here [indicates], and that's where the

19 soldiers were lined up. Not big detachments and

20 companies.

21 Q. Now, this growth that we can see on the

22 photograph, that is to say, the two trees, did those

23 two trees exist when you lived there?

24 A. You mean the birch tree? Yes, it did.

25 Q. I think that we ascertained that this all

Page 730

1 took place in April, did it not, April 1992?

2 A. End of April, beginning of May.

3 Q. These birch trees are in leaf at that time.

4 A. No, they're not, and anyway, this type of

5 tree has very small spaced-out leaves.

6 Q. As far as I can see --

7 A. Sir, this is a --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: What I want to find out --

9 A. I am a forestry expert, and this is a birch

10 tree.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

12 What I want to find out from you,

13 Mr. Jovanovic, is are you disputing that this witness

14 saw any soldiers?

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 I am just checking out the statements of this witness.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: It will do you well to remember

18 that in the admitted facts from both parties, the armed

19 conflict is not disputed. This is the armed conflict

20 between the Serbs and the Muslim forces; that is not

21 disputed.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I'm not

23 trying to dispute the existence of the conflict, I am

24 just trying to examine the witness as to the facts and

25 circumstances, to see whether he saw anything and

Page 731

1 whether he was in the possibility of seeing anything,

2 which he said he did. I do not wish to bring into

3 question anything that has already been ascertained.

4 I'm just examining his own testimony.

5 Your Honours, may I continue?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please, as long as the

7 question is not touching on the armed conflict, even if

8 that is part of his own testimony.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

10 Honour. Let me say that not for a moment did I want to

11 or do I intend to in future bring into question the

12 existence of the armed conflict and everything that is

13 not in dispute in this case.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Please proceed.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, I

16 would like to clarify the situation a little more.

17 Quite possibly, in the future, because of the way in

18 which questions are asked, there will be a problem as

19 to whether I wish to say something with regard to the

20 armed conflict or not. Let me state here and now that

21 I am not bringing the existence of the armed conflict

22 into dispute at any point. I shall not be contesting

23 that.

24 Q. May I continue, sir?

25 A. Sir, may I complete my answer, please?

Page 732

1 Q. Yes, go ahead.

2 A. Quite certainly, and I guarantee this with my

3 life, and for 900 days I have been saying that to

4 myself, that I will tell the whole world the truth, I

5 saw the lining up on this space here [indicates], where

6 the vehicles are now, Serb soldiers, and they were

7 local uniformed soldiers exclusively.

8 Q. Let me ask you, then, whether you will agree

9 with me that between your own balcony and that portion

10 where the lining up took place, that it is some 50 to

11 100 metres?

12 A. No. No. Far from it.

13 Q. Thirty then?

14 A. Even less than that.

15 Q. Less than that. How much, then?

16 A. It can't be more than 20 metres, if that.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

18 please, may we look at the photographs again.

19 Q. Would you look at the photograph and give me

20 some explanations, once again. I don't live there.

21 Explain the ratio to me.

22 A. My apartment is the third apartment from the

23 corner to the hotel, next to the hotel. So you can see

24 the width of two apartments, and then you can calculate

25 it for yourself. Take the width of two apartments as

Page 733

1 your rule of thumb and calculate it. And none of the

2 flats were wider than ten metres.

3 Q. That gives us the width of the house. Then

4 there is a street.

5 A. No, there is no street. Listen to me. There

6 is no street. It goes right by the building. This

7 part of the street is right up against the building.

8 Q. Is there a street or is there not a street?

9 A. No, there isn't. The part where the vehicles

10 were parked, that is the street. That is where they

11 were lined up, in front of the corner where these two

12 civilians seemed to be, where this third vehicle is

13 parked. That is that space and area that I am talking

14 about.

15 Q. Thank you. Could we now go back to the

16 photograph which is Exhibit D12, that is to say, the

17 last photograph, D11. I apologise. D11.

18 A. Photograph number 11 is the same one as the

19 previous photograph.

20 Q. Yes. We agree that these were two identical

21 photographs?

22 A. Well, then we don't need to go on about these

23 photographs. I have nothing to add. I have nothing

24 further to say.

25 Q. Well, I have something to ask you. As we

Page 734

1 have agreed, that this hill is called Dub, the facility

2 that you can barely make out, that is barely visible,

3 and which, of course, you cannot recognise at this

4 distance. Could you tell me, nevertheless, what

5 building -- what is the building at the top of Dub?

6 A. There is a building at the top of Dub, and

7 that is a hunting lodge.

8 Q. Thank you. I'd like to draw your attention

9 once again to the fact that these photographs were

10 taken 10 to 15 days ago, and therefore, I assume, and

11 in view of the fact that you are a forestry engineer,

12 you will know this. In April the vegetation is a

13 little more lush than it is on this photograph.

14 A. In April?

15 Q. Does this hill have the same aspect in April

16 as it does now?

17 A. What do you mean now?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the purpose of your

19 questions? Is it visibility?

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes,

21 Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: -- that touch the armed

23 conflict?

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

25 Honour. This has to do with the verification of the

Page 735

1 witness's statement. He said that from his balcony he

2 managed to see some buildings and some -- I don't know

3 how to put this. I don't know how to say this.

4 Trenches. Trenches, you see. Trenches. Machine-gun

5 nests.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, if it's a

8 question of credit you are trying to attack the witness

9 for, please do move much faster.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

11 Honour, but unfortunately I have to go back again to

12 the question of vegetation.

13 Q. Please take a look at this photograph.

14 A. I see it.

15 Q. Apart from these green portions, there are

16 some other colours too, aren't there?

17 A. Do you want me to tell you which type of tree

18 this is?

19 Q. No, I am not interested which type of tree it

20 is.

21 A. Excuse me. I have to tell you. The green is

22 a kind of pine tree, and the yellow is a kind of

23 deciduous tree.

24 Q. Thank you. What about these deciduous trees;

25 are they in leaf in April?

Page 736

1 A. No. No. The vegetation in Foca is rather

2 late. It starts later, sir. In May it is -- the first

3 buds are seen in May and -- Your Honours, may I explain

4 one more thing? This photograph was made recently.

5 Conifers grow 60 centimeters in a year period, so

6 can you imagine how much these trees have grown in the

7 meantime, three metres or perhaps even more. The trees

8 are now concealing that from one's view because they

9 grew so fast in the meantime. That is what the

10 gentleman didn't know.

11 Q. I know that vegetation comes late in

12 mountainous regions, but that it comes that late, that

13 I didn't know. But let it be.

14 A. You also don't know how fast trees grow, and

15 then they can conceal something from one's view.

16 Q. Was there any forest then?

17 A. There was a forest that was artificially

18 planted.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you for this lesson in

20 forestry, but let us go back to our original business.

21 In 1992, the hill that is before your eyes

22 now, and that is called Dub, was it covered with any

23 kind of vegetation?

24 A. It was covered with vegetation, but the

25 height of the trees that were there was a metre and a

Page 737

1 half.

2 Q. Very well. I agree with you, a metre and a

3 half. Let every tree in this photograph be a metre and

4 a half tall.

5 A. But the height here is three-and-a-half

6 metres, sir.

7 Q. Very well. I am not denying that. Let it be

8 three-and-a-half metres now, and perhaps it was a metre

9 and a half then. But explain to me what a machine-gun

10 nest is like?

11 A. Sir, these trees are not a fence, a shield.

12 Light can go through it. A lot of things can be seen

13 through it. This is not a wall.

14 Q. Sir, this photograph was taken from your

15 balcony?

16 A. Yes, but perhaps a month ago.

17 Q. A month ago, 20 days ago. This minute I am

18 really not interested in time. I am interested in

19 something different, quite different. Can you explain

20 to me and to the Honourable Judges what a machine-gun

21 nest looks like?

22 A. It has a bit of wall --

23 Q. I am trying to get you to explain the

24 machine-gun nest that you saw.

25 A. Well, I don't know what the exact height was.

Page 738

1 Q. Was it a metre and a half?

2 A. Possibly.

3 Q. If it's a metre and a half, was it below the

4 treetops?

5 A. No. No. No. The trees that were below the

6 machine-gun nest, sir, through the trees -- there is

7 quite a bit of light that comes through, because, Your

8 Honours, the black pine is a tree that gives a lot of

9 light, a lot of light can get through it. It's not

10 like a beech tree that closes the area completely, that

11 is impenetrable. The branches are sparse and you can

12 see through them.

13 Q. If I understood you correctly, you saw this

14 through the branches?

15 A. I am saying that you can see through the

16 branches.

17 Q. And I am asking you whether you saw this

18 through the branches?

19 A. Sir, I saw machine-gun nests.

20 Q. But did you see these machine-gun nests

21 through the branches or were they in some other place?

22 Do you understand what I am asking? There are pines

23 that are a metre and a half tall in 1992, then there

24 are machine-gun nests that you see. I am interested in

25 the position of these machine-gun nests that you see,

Page 739

1 and from what distance do you see these machine-gun

2 nests?

3 A. Well, you probably measured the distance from

4 my apartment to there.

5 Q. I didn't do anything. I am just putting

6 questions. I am asking you how far away from your

7 apartment, from your balcony on the other side, is the

8 top of the Dub hill?

9 A. About 300 metres, if you look at the length

10 horizontally.

11 Q. Could you please take another look at this

12 photograph and tell me whether you think that the

13 distance in this photograph is 300 metres?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Between the point where the photographer is

16 and the point on the top of the hill. I mean this

17 little white dot.

18 A. The photographer is underneath the hill,

19 sir. The photographer is underneath the hill, sir.

20 Q. Sir, you agreed with me that these two

21 photographs were identical; is that right?

22 A. In the upper part. In the upper part. And

23 that photograph was cut.

24 Q. We'll have to go into expertise.

25 A. Secondly, sir, shooting was heard from this

Page 740

1 hill.

2 Q. I am not saying that shots were not heard and

3 that you did not hear shots. I didn't say that at a

4 single point in time.

5 A. Well, what do you want then?

6 Q. I am interested in how come you saw a

7 machine-gun nest?

8 A. I saw it with binoculars. I mean, you can

9 see an animal. You can see an animal with binoculars,

10 you can see a deer, and without binoculars you cannot

11 even see a horse, but with binoculars you can see the

12 entire animal.

13 Q. Are you a hunter?

14 A. No, I never carried a rifle, but as a

15 forestry engineer I am a hunter, in a way.

16 Q. What kind of binoculars did you have?

17 A. The binoculars belonged to my relative. I

18 don't know what type it was.

19 Q. Can you tell me what the technical

20 characteristics were, what the magnifying ratio was and

21 all of that?

22 A. I am not very knowledgeable in this. I am

23 not involved in technical matters. It's my

24 relative's. We lived in the same apartment building,

25 on the same floor and -- yes, we looked at this

Page 741

1 together.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

3 further --

4 Q. Let us clarify it further.

5 A. Everything is clear to me.

6 Q. Everything is clear to me too.

7 A. Then don't ask me anything else.

8 Q. You and your relative from your balcony, as

9 you were watching through binoculars through the

10 branches of the black pine, you saw machine-gun nests?

11 A. We saw a machine-gun nest, sir. That I

12 claim. That is for sure.

13 Q. I am not saying that you did not see a

14 machine-gun nest. I am interested in a specific

15 machine-gun nest that you referred to in your

16 statement.

17 A. This is sufficient. This is sufficient --

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No further

19 questions, Your Honour.

20 A. Well, then it's sufficient. I said that I

21 saw it. I am not a soldier of any kind, and it is from

22 that nest that the shooting was taking place.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

24 with your permission, I know that I said that I have no

25 further questions, but I do have one more question, by

Page 742

1 your leave.

2 A. Well, I wouldn't answer. If you said that

3 you didn't have any other questions, then you don't

4 have any other questions.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Witness. You are here to

6 answer questions from counsel. You're answering these

7 questions to the Court. Please go ahead.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Next to the machine-gun nest were some

10 soldiers.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see them too, through the branches of

13 the black pine?

14 A. Yes, they were standing.

15 Q. What were they wearing?

16 A. They had olive-green/grey, and on the balcony

17 of the hunting lodge, I saw people who were moving.

18 Q. You saw people who were moving on the balcony

19 of -- are we talking about this one here [indicates]?

20 A. That's the hunting lodge.

21 Q. You saw that through these binoculars?

22 A. Yes. It is higher up, the balcony is higher

23 up than the nest.

24 Q. Can you tell me what these people wore?

25 A. I already told you.

Page 743

1 Q. I'm sorry. I really did not hear what you

2 said.

3 A. I said that they wore military uniforms.

4 Q. And how did you conclude that these were Serb

5 soldiers?

6 A. Because they had these uniforms and because

7 they were shooting, because they were shooting at

8 Muslims.

9 Q. You saw them shooting at Muslims too from

10 that machine-gun nest?

11 A. Shooting, I saw them firing. Sir, I saw them

12 firing. I saw them shooting at Gornje Polje, and also

13 I saw the killing of the policeman on the other side,

14 Abid.

15 Q. Sir, you saw all of that?

16 A. No, I didn't see all of that, but I heard

17 it. I heard that he was killed.

18 Q. Well, let me tell you one thing, it's going

19 to be much easier for all if we confine ourselves to

20 what I'm asking you about. You saw shooting.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I'm asking you now, did you see specific

23 shooting from a specific machine-gun nest, this

24 machine-gun nest that we talked about previously? On

25 the basis of what did you conclude that these were

Page 744

1 Serbs?

2 A. On the basis of the shooting against the area

3 of Gornje Polje.

4 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you said a few minutes

5 ago on the basis of uniforms.

6 A. No. No. You asked what they were wearing,

7 and I said Serb uniforms.

8 Q. Oh, yes. Yes, sorry.

9 A. You asked where they were shooting, that's

10 what you said.

11 Q. No, I did not ask where they were shooting.

12 I wanted to ask on the basis of what did you conclude

13 that these were Serb uniforms.

14 A. On the basis of the colour.

15 Q. Can you explain this colour to us?

16 A. Yes, it's the SMB, the olive-grey/green

17 colour.

18 Q. And the other side, what colour did they use?

19 A. What other side?

20 Q. The other side in the conflict. We all know

21 that --

22 A. I don't know what the other side in the

23 conflict was.

24 Q. Do you think the Serbs were fighting against

25 themselves?

Page 745

1 A. Well, they killed the Muslim people.

2 Q. But the other side had uniforms too.

3 A. I did not see.

4 Q. You did not see a single Muslim in a uniform?

5 A. No, not in that period, sir.

6 Q. All right. In the later period.

7 A. Later I didn't either because I was taken to

8 the camp.

9 Q. Did you ever see a Muslim soldier? I'm

10 sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Did you ever see a

11 soldier of the Federation during the war?

12 A. When I got out of prison --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Allow the witness to answer

14 before you ask the next question, please.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

16 Your Honour. I'm sorry.

17 A. Camouflage uniforms.

18 Q. And the persons that you saw on that

19 occasion, walking on the balcony, they had

20 olive-green/grey uniforms?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it is only Serb soldiers that wore

23 olive-grey/green uniforms?

24 A. As far as I could see, only them, from

25 whatever I saw in Foca, while I was there before I was

Page 746

1 detained, sir.

2 Q. Just a minute, please. Do I understand you

3 correctly, you said that in Foca, while you had not yet

4 been arrested, the Serb soldiers wore exclusively SMB

5 olive-green/grey uniforms.

6 A. Local ones. But those who came in from

7 elsewhere, they also wore camouflage uniforms.

8 Q. And you saw local ones wearing SMB

9 olive-green/grey uniforms.

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

12 further questions, Your Honour. Really, I do not.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

14 may I say that my next-door neighbours -- my next-door

15 neighbour came, he was recruited on the first day, but

16 he would come home to visit, he would have free time

17 and he would go home, and he would bring his rifle and

18 the SMB uniform. Another neighbour of mine, whom I

19 also visited, also living in my own apartment building,

20 was one of the guards. He was not up at the front, but

21 he was a guard. He had a rifle, and he wore this same

22 SMB olive-green/grey uniform.

23 So those are two people from my building, and

24 we were very close and visited each other. And in the

25 street as well, where the lining up took place, they

Page 747

1 exclusively wore olive-green/grey uniforms.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

3 Who will be the next counsel to

4 cross-examine?

5 Mr. Kolesar.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

7 shall be continuing with the cross-examination of this

8 witness. But I should like to ask that you bear in

9 mind one factor, and that is that during the lunch

10 break, we used the lunch break for something else and

11 not for this, and if you plan to go on after 4.00 p.m.,

12 my health problems are such that I cannot go for too

13 long without food. So we could go on for a little

14 while longer, if you see fit --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, we all know the

16 schedule, we all know the time we rise from here. All

17 I asked you is whether you have asked questions, and

18 you should have just proceeded. We normally would stop

19 and then continue. You don't have to waste the three,

20 four minutes just discussing your health.

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank

22 you. That is all I need to round off a group of

23 questions.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise,

25 Your Honours, but this has made me very excited and

Page 748

1 upset, because of the method in which the questions

2 have been asked. I am very upset, and because of my

3 blood pressure, if possible, could I ask whether it is

4 myself who am on trial here, because I managed to

5 survive, managed to live through it, after spending 900

6 days in a camp.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Witness, but maybe we

8 should just adjourn. Then you can go and rest, and

9 then tomorrow morning the cross-examination will

10 continue.

11 You see, these are lawyers for the three

12 accused persons, and they have to put questions to you

13 about your evidence which you gave when the Prosecution

14 was examining you. That's all that they are doing.

15 And they are asking the questions on behalf of the

16 Trial Chamber. We, the bench, are interested in your

17 answers.

18 We shall adjourn and continue tomorrow at

19 09.30 hours. Mr. Kolesar, you will continue the

20 cross-examination. I do hope that, Witness, you'll be

21 able to rest so that we can continue tomorrow.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23 4 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

24 the 23rd day of March, 2000, at

25 9.30 a.m.