1 Thursday, 23
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Will the registrar please call
7 the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number
9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir
10 Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, witness.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: We are continuing
14 cross-examination. The two counsel will put questions
15 to you, like it was yesterday, and we shall continue
16 until they finish. All right.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me, Your Honour. Might
18 I just raise a matter prior to commencement. I've been
19 looking for an opportune moment to raise an issue. I
20 haven't found one. Perhaps this too is not an
21 opportune moment --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me ask you, has it got to
23 do with this witness?
24 MR. RYNEVELD: It does not. It has to do
25 with a Defence motion that has been filed and perhaps
1 needs to be dealt with, and also, perhaps, the issue of
2 the scheduling of AS, which I believe has been left in
3 abeyance, and I just thought we should address the
4 issue this morning, to see whether the Court might set
5 a convenient time to hear the parties on the issue.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I would rather we
7 complete our evidence with this witness. Thereafter,
8 before the next witness, we deal with the next issues
9 you are raising.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: I just wanted raise when you
11 want to hear it.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, please.
13 WITNESS: SAFET AVDIC [Resumed]
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:
15 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning. Good
16 morning, Mr. Avdic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. I hope your health is all right and that we
19 can continue our talk. Asking my questions, I would
20 like to continue from where we left off yesterday. In
21 your statement, and during your testimony yesterday,
22 you said on several occasions that you saw soldiers
23 wearing olive-grey/green uniforms, and that on that
24 occasion you thought -- you said that they were Serb
25 soldiers. Before we go onto that question, I should
1 like to ask the witness to be shown his own statement
2 once again made to the Tribunal, to the investigators
3 of the Tribunal, so that he could have them -- have it
4 in front of him, and this will facilitate our work. It
5 is FWS-65.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is Defence
7 Exhibit D6.
8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Is that the statement that you had in your
10 hands yesterday, and do you once again state that it is
11 your statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You heard my first question. Would you like
14 me to repeat it, or can you answer?
15 A. What? About the statement?
16 Q. Yes. But before we go onto that, I asked you
17 a question, and that was the following: In your
18 statement on several -- in several places, and
19 yesterday during your testimony, you said that you saw
20 soldiers wearing olive-grey/green uniforms, and you
21 said that they were Serb soldiers. Am I right in
22 saying that?
23 A. Serbs. Yes, Serbs wearing olive-grey/green
24 uniforms are for me Serb soldiers.
25 Q. For many years you were the director of what
1 we used to call an organisation of associated labour.
2 That was what it was termed?
3 A. Of the forestry company.
4 Q. Were you also a member of the League of
5 Communists of Yugoslavia?
6 A. In 1970 I had to become a member of the
7 League of Communists of Yugoslavia in order to take up
8 the position of company director.
9 Q. As a director of a large work organisation,
10 and as a member of the League of Communists of
11 Yugoslavia, I am sure you know -- that is, I am asking
12 you whether you know about the concept of total
13 national defence and social self-protection, as it was
15 A. I did not do my military service. I was in
16 the army, actually, only for 57 days, and then, due to
17 illness, I was released. So I only served the army for
18 50 days, without any theoretical training in army
19 matters, national defence, and so on. I was only a
20 member of the civil defence in the work organisation.
21 Q. Would you now tell us something linked to
22 Territorial Defence. What was Territorial Defence?
23 A. I did not read any documents, and I can't
24 really say.
25 Q. Do you know that within the frameworks of the
1 system of total national defence and social
2 self-protection there was the Territorial Defence
4 A. In my work organisation this was what we used
5 to call civil defence.
6 Q. Can we agree that civil defence is a part of
7 Territorial Defence --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Wait for the witness and wait
9 for the interpreters.
10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. May we agree that civil defence was part of
12 the Territorial Defence system?
13 A. The civil defence I belonged to was within
14 the frame works of my work organisation, without any
15 weapons. I was in the firefighting department within
16 my work organisation, and we were there to protect the
17 buildings of our work organisation from fire, and to
18 train our employees and form special units,
19 firefighting units within our company. So this was
20 that type of civil defence, or civilian protection, and
21 it was the firefighting unit. But it wasn't a military
22 unit or organisation at all, ever.
23 Q. Please, you don't have to do military service
24 or have a knowledge of military doctrine. It was
25 common knowledge, and I ask you whether you know about
1 that, that part of the male population doing military
2 service, after completing military service, were
3 divided up into territorial units which had their set
4 purposes. Do you know that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Which ethnic groups made up that territorial
7 unit? Was it made up by both Serbs and Muslims?
8 A. It was made up of all ethnic groups.
9 Q. The people that made up the Territorial
10 Defence organisation, which is the first level of
11 reserve with set purposes, in case of an attack, were
12 they issued military equipment, that is to say,
13 uniforms, masks, gas masks, and other equipment?
14 A. Yes, they were.
15 Q. Well, very well. If they were in the
16 Territorial Defence organisation which, speaking about
17 times before the war, means there were Serbs, Croats,
18 Muslims, and all the other ethnic groups existing in
19 the former Yugoslavia, did they all receive military
20 equipment on the basis of which, and that is what we
21 refer to the SMB, the olive-green/grey uniforms of the
22 regular Yugoslav army of the day, and they all received
23 those uniforms, how can you then say that soldiers,
24 that is to say the individuals wearing these SMB
25 olive-green/grey uniforms, were Serb soldiers when we
1 know that those same uniforms were issued to everybody,
2 including the Muslim ethnic group --
3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, that question
4 involved a number of assumptions, which you have not
5 proved. If you want to prove them through this
6 witness, you'll have to ask the witness to agree, first
7 of all, whether those grey/green uniforms were issued
8 to everybody. And he has not yet answered that, has
10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Witness, do you still maintain that the
12 individuals wearing the grey/green uniforms were Serbs,
13 Serb fighters?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did the Muslim fighters wear grey/green
16 uniforms as well?
17 A. Yes, I know that. I know that the -- that is
18 to say, I know that the uniforms and weapons were taken
19 over from the Territorial Defence before the start of
20 the aggression.
21 Q. They were withdrawn. Do you know who ordered
23 A. Well, I don't know. I'm not a military man.
24 I was not included into any military structures or
25 formations, so I don't know who gave this order.
1 Q. Do you know who was the commander of the
2 Territorial Defence for Foca at the time?
3 A. I cannot remember.
4 Q. Could it have been Sulejman Pilav?
5 A. Possibly.
6 Q. What is he by ethnicity?
7 A. He's a Muslim.
8 Q. He's a Muslim?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If he was a Muslim, why would the uniforms
11 have been withdrawn?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Do you know perhaps where these uniforms were
14 stored? In warehouses, or did the recruits and
15 conscripts keep them in their own apartments?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. You also said in your statement, and repeated
18 this during your testimony yesterday, you mentioned the
19 military police.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell me how the military police was
22 dressed, and did they have any insignia which
23 differentiated them from the other uniformed
25 A. The military policeman who arrested me -- the
1 military policeman who arrested me --
2 Q. You mean on the 19th of May?
3 A. Yes, on the 19th of May, wore a uniform, the
4 grey/green uniform, without any separate ranks or
6 Q. Did he have any other characteristics of the
7 military police?
8 A. He had a rifle with him, he had a weapon in
9 the car.
10 Q. So he was uniformed and he had a rifle.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What leads you to the conclusion that he was
13 a policeman and not an ordinary soldier?
14 A. Well, he told me that he was a military
15 policeman when he arrested me.
16 Q. From the beginning of the conflict, up to the
17 time you were taken into custody on the 19th, did you
18 see uniformed individuals with insignia of any kind
19 which were, in fact, the insignia of the military
21 A. No.
22 Q. No. Very well. When we're speaking about
23 army matters, you also go on to say that, in addition
24 to others, Arkan's men were present, Seselj's men, the
25 Beli Orlovi White Eagles.
1 A. I said people from other parts. Whether they
2 were Arkan's men or Seselj's men, I don't know, but
3 they were not from Foca, they were not local people
4 from Foca and citizens of Foca. But I did see that
5 they had white bands, that's what I saw. Whether they
6 were Arkan's men or Seselj's men, I cannot say. I just
7 saw that kind of distinctive marking.
8 Q. So the only difference between them and the
9 local soldiers, as you call them, the ones from Foca,
10 was that they had the white bands?
11 A. Yes, but they also spoke a different
13 Q. Very well. They spoke a different dialect,
14 but they didn't have any other characteristic markings
15 on their uniform which would distinguish them.
16 A. No, nothing special. I didn't notice
17 anything special.
18 Q. Would you take a look now, please, at page 2
19 of the Serbo-Croatian text, and it is the one-but-last
20 paragraph, and the last sentence.
21 A. Excuse me. What page, please?
22 Q. The Serbian version is page 2.
23 A. Yes, I've found it.
24 Q. The one-but-last paragraph.
25 JUDGE HUNT: How does that paragraph
1 commence, Mr. Kolesar, so we can find it in the English
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The sentence
4 begins "I have not seen myself but have heard from
5 others that several ..." that paragraph, and then we go
6 to the last sentence in that paragraph, "I saw some
7 rifles with Muslims and some Muslims who had money
8 bought ...", three sentences from the end, " ... bought
9 weapons." "I saw some rifles," that sentence, "with
10 Muslims ..."
11 Q. Have you found that paragraph and the
12 sentence, Mr. Avdic? It is on page 2. At the bottom
13 of the text, there is the number 2, that is, page 2,
14 and then the one-but-last paragraph, the sentence
15 begins, the third sentence from the end of the
16 paragraph, "I saw some rifles with Muslims, and some
17 Muslims who had money bought ..."
18 A. I apologise, but the sentence begins "I have
19 not seen myself but have heard from others ..."
20 Q. I am reading what you wrote.
21 A. You said something else to me.
22 Q. I am reading the sentence that is written
23 down in the text, and it says, "I saw some rifles with
24 Muslims, and some Muslims who had money bought
25 weapons ..." Have you found it?
1 A. I do apologise, Your Honours. On page 2 of
2 the text, the one-but-last paragraph begins with the
3 following words: "I personally never saw but I heard
4 from others that several months before the war, the
5 Serb civilians organised themselves into military units
6 and started military training at Vucevo, near
7 Tjentiste" --
8 Q. I apologise for interrupting, but that wasn't
9 my question. I just read the beginning of that
10 paragraph to ask you the following: Who did those
11 Muslims buy weapons from?
12 A. I apologise. I can't find that sentence. It
13 is not on page 2.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Usher, will you please go to
15 counsel, look at his statement and look at the page,
16 and then direct the witness, please. We are wasting a
17 lot of time.
18 Witness, can you read what you have been
19 shown so that we understand whether it is the same
20 sentence that counsel is about to ask you about.
21 A. I've found it now. But you didn't explain to
22 me where that sentence you read out later on was
23 located, because it is towards the end of the
24 one-but-last paragraph, and it says: "I saw some
25 rifles with Muslims, and some Muslims who had money
1 bought weapons." So you are referring to that
2 particular sentence.
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I saw hunting rifles, but I heard that some
6 people bought weapons. What kind of weapons, I didn't
8 Q. Do you know who sold weapons?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Does the name "Senid Hasimpasic," nicknamed
11 "Saja," mean anything to you?
12 A. Well, I heard the name, yes.
13 Q. What was he by profession before the war?
14 A. He was a tradesman, that is to say, a
15 salesman. He sold fruits and vegetables, had a fruit
16 and vegetables shop, a grocery shop.
17 Q. Was he mentioned as someone who sold weapons?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. I would now like to go back to the beginning
20 of your statement. This is also on page 2, the
21 paragraph after you speak of yourself. You talk about
22 the formation of nationalist parties. My question is
23 the following: Which is the first nationalist party
24 that was formed in Foca, and when?
25 A. The SDA. In 1990. I expressed my doubts
1 here, 1989 or 1990, but it seems to be 1990.
2 Q. If I remember correctly, you said that the
3 rally was held at Pijesak?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You said that you attended this rally.
6 A. For a very brief period of time.
7 Q. What is your estimate? How many people were
9 A. I read about it in the papers.
10 Q. So what did you read in the papers?
11 A. About 40.000.
12 Q. Did it say in the newspapers that there were
13 between 150.000 and 200.000?
14 A. I don't know about that.
15 Q. Was this an impressive gathering?
16 A. Well, it was the first time that I saw, in
17 Foca, so many people gathered together.
18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the
19 audiovisual booth please play us a videotape, a
20 videotape -- the one that was marked as D1.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I wish to thank
23 the audiovisual people, and I apologise, once again,
24 for the poor quality of the tone.
25 Q. After having seen this video-clip, do you
1 allow for the possibility of more than 40.000 people
2 having attended the rally? We have seen -- is
3 everything all right? Can you hear me?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. We all watched this video-clip together. We
6 cannot see this in the video-clip, but you said that
7 you attended the rally, not throughout, but,
8 nevertheless -- Mr. Avdic, can I repeat this now?
9 A. I apologise. I heard the English language
10 being spoken, not the Bosnian language before. Now
11 it's all right. Thank you.
12 Q. You attended the rally, sir. We saw this
13 video-clip. Except for the flags that we saw here in
14 this video-clip, were there any state flags and other
15 official flags?
16 A. I don't know. I didn't pay attention.
17 Q. Tell me, please, do you know who the guests
18 attending the rally were?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. You mentioned that Alija Izetbegovic spoke.
21 A. Alija Izetbegovic is not a guest, to my mind.
22 Q. Was Sulejman Uglajanin present, and do you
23 know what he said? Do you remember?
24 A. Yesterday I said that I spent a very short
25 period of time there, that I heard part of Alija
1 Izetbegovic's speech, and then I left this gathering.
2 I went home.
3 Q. Do you remember when Alija Izetbegovic spoke?
4 A. No, I didn't even wait for Alija
5 Izetbegovic's speech to end. I went home.
6 Q. While you were at the rally, or perhaps
7 later, did you hear through the media something about
8 the plan and platform that were proclaimed at the rally
9 itself inter alia, that Foca was supposed to become the
10 world Islamic centre?
11 A. No. No.
12 Q. In your opinion, what was this, a promotion
13 of Muslims or a promotion of Bosniaks?
14 A. Promotion of Bosniaks.
15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the
16 audiovisual department, please, play videotape D2 for
17 us, please.
18 [Videotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Are we Serbs?
20 No. Are we maybe Croats? No. Are we Muslims? Yes.
21 Esteemed gentlemen, esteemed reporters, dear
22 friends, Serbs and Croats, here you had the opportunity
23 of hearing how, on behalf of three million Muslims, the
24 people gathered here, answered who we are and what we
25 are. We are Muslims and don't you ever forget it.
1 This is also an answer to all those that,
2 for whichever petty political reasons they might have,
3 declare themselves Serbs or Croats, though they belong
4 to the Islamic religion and say that the SDA doesn't
5 suit them because it is an excessively green party.
6 From this spot I tell them: Let it be green, because
7 it's ours.
8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Were you present when Semso spoke?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You weren't there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And through the media you didn't find out --
14 you didn't hear this speech?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Does the name Fadil Sljivo mean something to
18 A. Yes. I know the man. Yes.
19 Q. Esef Celik?
20 A. What was that?
21 Q. I think it's Efet?
22 A. No, that's not correct.
23 Q. So what is his name?
24 A. Esef Celik.
25 Q. All right. What kind of education did they
2 A. Well, they finished some kind of university.
3 I don't know. I don't know whether they all had
4 university diplomas. I know that Sefik did.
5 Q. On the first page of your statement, in the
6 first paragraph, you mentioned Prosvejta, a Serbian
7 cultural society. Within the SDA, was there a circle
8 of educated Muslims?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. You don't know?
11 A. I'm sorry. A club was formed, an educational
12 club, but not of Muslims exclusively.
13 Q. Oh, an educational club. Of who? For which
14 ethnic group?
15 A. All ethnic groups could join that club.
16 Q. The club that you are speaking about, is that
17 the one where Vojislav Maksimovic spoke, or is it
18 another one?
19 A. It's another one.
20 Q. This was the Serb club. And you don't know
21 anything about the club of educated, well-respected
22 Muslims from the municipality of Foca who accepted the
23 policies of the SDA?
24 A. I'm not aware of any such gathering. I'm not
25 aware of any such gathering having been organised.
1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to
2 ask the usher to show the witness this document, which
3 is not an exhibit, but it is Defence document number
4 4. It is a list. It is D4. Can the witness find his
5 own name on this list.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This was not
7 admitted into evidence, and it was only marked D4 for
8 identification purposes.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Q. Take a look at this, please. First, there is
11 the English version, then there is the Serbian
12 version. So please look at the Serbian version. It
13 starts with a piece of paper where it says the
14 programme of work, and then there is a list.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we should ask the usher
16 again, so that he can show -- you can look at your
17 document and show exactly where, instead of the witness
19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Over here.
20 Right over here [indicates].
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I ask that we just be
23 shown what the document looks like, so that we can
24 identify and see whether we have a copy. I understand
25 we have been given one --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for
2 Mr. Ryneveld.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: You were saying?
4 MR. RYNEVELD: I'll say it again. I
5 understand that we've been given a copy, but I wonder
6 if we could look at the document so that we could
7 identify just which one it is that's being shown to the
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: It appears that the solution
11 has been found. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: We are not sure.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher indicate to the
15 witness where he should be looking -- can the usher
16 show the document to the Prosecution, so that they
17 identify their own document as well.
18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Could you please tell me, number 13, whose
20 name is under number 13?
21 A. It's a bit illegible, but it says Avdic Safet
22 with a degree in forestry, university degree in
23 forestry. Right.
24 Q. If we look at this list, and we say it's a
25 list of well-respected, educated Muslims from the
1 territory of the municipality of Foca with the
2 municipal board of the SDA in Foca, am I right in
3 saying that that is what the title is?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You said a few minutes ago that you didn't
6 know anything about this?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you still stick to that answer?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
11 since the Prosecutor confirmed that they received this
12 document earlier on, and that they are now familiar
13 with the contents of this document, can we now have it
14 tendered and admitted into evidence?
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the
17 MS. KUO: Your Honour, it's true that we have
18 this document, we have it in the B/C/S. We have no
19 English translation.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Mr. Kolesar, is there
21 any English translation?
22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
23 Yes. Yes.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Was it translated by the
1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No. That is
2 the translation that we made.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Have you looked at the English
5 version? The Prosecution, I'm asking.
6 MS. KUO: We don't have an English version at
7 the moment, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: In any case, Mr. Kolesar --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, please.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Your microphone.
12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my
13 learned colleagues who were on the case before me tell
14 me that, in the cooperation we have had so far with the
15 OTP, when we presented the documents in Serbo-Croatian,
16 we always attached our own translations to those
17 documents. The document that I would like to tender
18 and have admitted as evidence was received by the
19 Prosecution on the 31st of May, 1999, in both the
20 English and Serbo-Croatian versions. So we only need
21 to provide copies for the registrar and the Trial
22 Chamber, but the Prosecution has these two papers.
23 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we did receive some
24 translations of documents that we were provided but not
25 of this particular one.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, when you exchange
2 these documents, does anybody on their part sign after
3 the list has been presented? Because, you see, this is
4 common, in the Prosecutor's office, as you can see,
5 there are many people working on a case, this has been
6 common in other cases, and we always try to say,
7 "Please, when you exchange documents, get them signed
8 for," so you know and you have proof.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
10 Honour, I do have a signature, because if I didn't have
11 a signature, I wouldn't be using the document. But I
12 don't want us to lose time.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: No. A signature of a person
14 from the Prosecution who received it.
15 Can the usher please assist? No. No, it's
16 not for me to identify the signature. I don't know who
17 signs for their documents.
18 Was it signed for? Is that somebody from
19 your team?
20 MS. KUO: Your Honour, yes, it is. We have
21 the documents that are listed but not the English
22 translation, that's the problem. We're ready to
23 proceed today on this, since I now have a copy of the
24 English translation. This is not a problem for this
25 particular document because I've had a few minutes to
1 look it over.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Are you objecting
3 to it being produced?
4 MS. KUO: No.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
6 Mr. Kolesar, this witness has said that he
7 does not know about the document.
8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
9 Honour. But from the title, the heading of the
10 document that was presented, it is evident that it is a
11 list of participants, of those who attended, and on the
12 list is Mr. Avdic. That he does not recognise that or
13 says that he does not know about it, I do not know
14 whether that is reason not to tender it into evidence
15 and have it admitted.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe let me explore this. You
17 say that this is a list of those who attended.
18 Attended what? A meeting?
19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] It is a list of
20 respected intellectuals of Muslim ethnicity who
21 supported the policy of the SDA party and who attended
22 the meeting with the representatives of the Municipal
23 Board of the SDA party of Foca, and that's what it
24 states in the heading of this document, and then it
25 goes on to list those present.
1 The last two columns, it states whether the
2 individual is a member of the SDA or not and whether he
3 has paid his membership dues or not. For Mr. Avdic, it
4 says that he is not a member of the SDA and has not
5 paid any membership dues but that he was present. So I
6 only wish to ascertain whether he was present, not
7 whether he was a member of the SDA, but whether he was
8 present at the meeting.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness should answer
10 whether he was present -- he has heard what counsel has
11 been saying. So what is your response to that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know
13 about this meeting. The list of Muslim names, of
14 intellectuals, anybody can compile a list of that
15 kind. There is a list of Serb, of Muslim, of Croat
16 intellectuals, and so on. I claim that I never knew
17 about a meeting of this kind, nor did I attend a
18 meeting like this.
19 If we are talking about organisation, I was
20 on the initiative board when the cultural society was
21 founded, and we were to have a joint Muslim, Serb, and
22 Croat cultural arts society, and everybody could join.
23 The members of every ethnic group could join that
24 society, and I was on the initiative board to form such
25 a cultural society. When a similar cultural and
1 educational society, the Serbian one, was formed, I
2 attended that too. But I do not know about this
3 meeting at all. My name is there, anybody could have
4 written my name, but not signature. And anybody could
5 have compiled a list of this kind with a work
6 programme, attached a list of those present. I cannot
7 see the date, when the meeting was held, nor do I know
8 about that.
9 I claim that I was on the initiative board to
10 found the cultural society in Foca, which was to be a
11 cultural society for Muslims, but that everybody could
12 join, Serbs, Croats, Muslims, to set up a joint
13 cultural society for the Foca region. But as for this,
14 I do not know anything about it.
15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I did not ask you --
17 JUDGE HUNT: One moment, Mr. Kolesar.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, is the Prosecution
20 accepting the authenticity of this document?
21 MS. KUO: We are disputing what -- the
22 contents and what it's purporting to be.
23 JUDGE HUNT: So you don't accept the
24 authenticity of the document.
25 MS. KUO: Yes.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, Mr. Kolesar, how do
2 you prove that the document is what it purports to be.
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] On the list of
4 those present, there is not a single signature --
5 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, Mr. Kolesar, you have
6 misunderstood my question. The document could have
7 been typed last night, for all anybody knows. Now, how
8 do you establish that that document is what it purports
9 to be, that it is something official?
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
11 Honours, with your permission, I am better acquainted
12 with this matter. May I answer?
13 All the material used as evidence, we
14 presented to the OTP. Within the frameworks of all
15 these materials was this document as well. They were
16 documents taken from the offices of the SDA, and within
17 the material taken from there was this particular
19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that will have to be then
20 accepted by the Prosecution; it certainly has not been
21 accepted so far. But let's assume for the moment that
22 it is a valid document. Mr. Kolesar, would you explain
23 to me what the relevance of all this is? Let's assume
24 he was a member of the SDA. What's the relevance of
25 this, other than some political issue?
1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] It is not a
2 political issue at all, it is just to examine the
3 credibility of the witness, in view of the fact that on
4 page 2 of his statement, in paragraph 1, he speaks
5 about the formation of nationalist parties. He
6 repeated that yesterday during his testimony, saying --
7 he just gave a critical sentence from a speech made by
8 Radovan Karadzic, which was detrimental to the Muslims,
9 and he took out a sentence from Alija Izetbegovic, who
10 spoke in positive terms with respect to the Muslims.
11 And then in this paragraph, the witness speaks about
12 the Serbian Cultural Society of Prosvjeta. So I would
13 like to ask him whether within the frameworks of the
14 SDA, there was perhaps a group, as I see it, a group of
15 the most highly respected and best educated Muslims
16 from Foca, a brain trust, if you like, of Foca, who
17 accepted and adopted the SDA programme.
18 On page number 1, before the list, the club
19 sets out a platform which was signed, and I don't know
20 whether the witness wishes to question the authenticity
21 of that signature. So this is only a component part of
22 the work programme, or platform of that club. That is
23 what I wanted to say. No other political
24 connotations. Because the witness in his statement
25 says what Ostojic said, what Maksimovic said, but he
1 does not say what the leaders of the SDA party said.
2 JUDGE HUNT: So that the whole of this goes
3 solely to the witness's credit, because he has not in
4 his statement asserted a number of things about the
5 SDA, which you say he should have done because he was a
6 member. Is that so?
7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Not that he was
8 a member of the SDA, but that he was a sympathiser, as
9 a citizen of Foca and as one of Foca's intellectuals,
10 and that he was informed of this, at least by the
11 media, radio, television, the press, which all devoted
12 a great deal of coverage and publicity to nationalist
13 parties. And he doesn't say anything about the work
14 and conduct of the SDA party, whereas he knows -- he
15 brings in the credibility -- this brings into question
16 his credibility.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Apart from commenting that it
18 must be on the very, very furthest limits that anybody
19 could imagine for a question of credibility, the whole
20 of that argument depends upon the authenticity of the
21 document you want to get into evidence. So I'm afraid
22 that's something you have to sort out with the
23 Prosecution. At the moment they do not accept its
25 JUDGE MUMBA: In other words, Mr. Kolesar, it
1 cannot be admitted into evidence. If you still want
2 the document, you'd have to call your own witness
3 during the Defence case. All right. But you can go on
4 asking the witness.
5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I understand,
6 Your Honour. May my copy of the document be returned
7 to me, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
9 may I say something? May I answer?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim, and I
12 am quite sure that what the man says, sympathisers, or
13 supporters of the SDA, whether they are members or not
14 members of the SDA, I can see that the majority are not
15 members. As far as I personally am concerned, I am
16 against the formation of nationalist parties. My
17 ideology was not -- never uni-national, uni-ethnic. My
18 ideology was throughout my lifetime a life in common,
19 of commonality with the Serbs, Muslims, Croats. And in
20 my own home I would have many intellectuals visiting,
21 my colleagues, more Serbs than anybody else. They
22 would come to my home. We would sit together, eat
23 together, drink together, if you want me to enumerate
24 my colleagues from the forestry profession. So there
25 were more of them, the Serbs coming to my home, than
1 there were Muslims. And that was my ideology.
2 From the beginning, the majority of
3 intellectuals in Foca were opposed to the formation of
4 uniethnic parties, and from this list here --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can counsel go on with his
6 questions, please.
7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. I would like to ask you to go back to your
9 statement. And we are still looking at page 2, the
10 fourth paragraph beginning with the following words:
11 "The SDA paralysed the working of various
12 institutions in Foca, like the municipal parliament.
13 The Serbs used obstructionist tactics and would not
14 attend the meetings of the municipal parliament, so
15 that there was no quorum for taking decisions."
16 Have you found that statement, that paragraph
17 in your statement?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Will you tell me the following: After the
20 elections in Foca in 1991 for the municipal bodies,
21 what was the party composition? How many members,
22 deputies, were from the SDA, and how many members were
23 from the Serbian Democratic Party and the other parties
24 who won the elections?
25 A. I don't know exactly.
1 Q. How, then, can you claim that the SDS
2 paralysed the work of these institutions?
3 A. I do so from the stories I heard.
4 Q. From stories. Well, will you agree with me
5 that the parliament had 609 members -- 69 members, and
6 30 members were from the SDA?
7 A. I don't know the structure of the Foca
8 parliament at all.
9 Q. Well, if that were as you claim, how then can
10 there be obstruction, if 34 members form members from
11 other parties; that is enough to form a quorum.
12 A. Well, I heard that -- not every time, but
13 some of the meetings of the assembly could not go
14 ahead, could not be held, because not -- there wasn't a
15 quorum. Not everybody attended.
16 Q. Do you know whether the responsible positions
17 in the republican municipality were filled by the same
18 number of Muslims as Serbs, proportionately speaking?
19 A. As far as I know, I don't know the exact
20 numbers, but there was considerable parity. If you had
21 a representative in the municipality that was a Serb,
22 you would have a parity representation on the other
24 Q. Well, if I understand you properly, there was
25 a balance struck?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Well, will you agree with me that when we
3 come to the parliament, there had to be a balance there
4 too, equity and parity there too, for parliamentary
6 A. Can I ask a question, please? If the Serb
7 deputies did not find something acceptable that was on
8 the agenda of the assembly meeting, they would not
9 attend the assembly. And for that reason, these
10 meetings could not be held. And I heard mention of
11 this from some of the deputies, that assemblies weren't
12 held because of that.
13 Q. Well, we know full well, and we shall
14 acquaint the Trial Chamber of the fact, but for the
15 work of the assembly, or parliament, we need to have a
16 quorum made up of half the quorum, 34 deputies, and
17 deputies that were not in the SDA could always make up
18 the necessary quorum?
19 A. Well, that is what I was -- the information I
21 Q. So that is the information you received
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I have one more question, which is the
25 following: At the end of your statement, and the end
1 of your testimony yesterday, you said that you were
2 arrested on the 19th of May and that you stayed in
4 A. In Foca until the 5th of October 1994.
5 Q. What happened after that?
6 A. After that, we were transported to Kula, to
7 Sarajevo. On the 6th, in the morning, we were
8 exchanged on the Bratsvo bridge, Brotherhood Unity
10 Q. Would you tell me what you mean by
11 exchanged? How did this take place? How were you
13 A. The International Red Cross.
14 Q. Yes, very well.
15 A. The International Red Cross transported us to
16 the other side, and the term "exchange" I know was
17 used. And none of the Serbs who were exchanged
18 for me -- I didn't see who they were.
19 Q. So it was an exchange between the Muslim and
20 Serb detainees?
21 A. I don't know that, because the International
22 Red Cross took us over. We were taken over by the
23 International Red Cross in Kula, in Sarajevo.
24 Q. Yes. I'm quite clear about that. But what I
25 am not clear about is who were you exchanged for? What
1 ethnic group?
2 A. I don't know that. At the KP Dom in Foca we
3 were told, the policeman told us, "Collect all your
4 belongings. You are going to be exchanged." There
5 were no further explanations given.
6 Q. Yes. I understand that. But your group of
7 Muslims, were they exchanged for another group of
8 Muslims? Was your group of -- group from the Foca
9 prison, and you say they were all Muslims, were they
10 exchanged for another group of Muslims?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. You don't know?
13 A. No, I don't know, because the International
14 Red Cross, that is to say the police, the guards at the
15 KP Dom told us, "You are going to be exchanged."
16 Q. Very well. But do you allow for the
17 possibility that the civilians, Muslim civilians were
18 exchanged for prisoners of the Serb nationality?
19 A. Up until that time, many groups were called
20 out by the guards --
21 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, but I am
22 asking you a very concrete question.
23 A. I am giving you a very concrete answer.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Allow the witness to
25 complete his answer. If he goes outside the answer or
1 outside the material being discussed, the bench will
2 caution the witness.
3 A. I am emphasising the word "exchange." I am
4 trying to say what "exchange" means for me. Many
5 groups that were leaving the KP Dom saw the guard come
6 into the room with a list. He'd call out some people's
7 names, some prisoners' names, and he'd say, "Collect
8 your things. You are going to be exchanged." That is
9 the very same sentence that was addressed to us on the
10 5th of October 1994. I have nothing to add to that.
11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. And finally, let's have a look at this. You
13 said that you were the director of the Organisation of
14 Associated Labour, Forestry, within your company?
15 A. I was, for ten years.
16 Q. You also said a few minutes ago that you were
17 a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia from
18 1970 onwards, because that was a prerequisite in order
19 to become a director?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How long were you a director of forestry, and
22 what happened then?
23 A. I was director of forestry for about ten
24 years. During the last year there were strikes. In
25 the area of Celebici -- first it started with Celebici,
1 and 90 percent of the employees were Serbs. The heads
2 of those work units were Serbs. This went on for five
3 or six months, these strikes. They spread to Vrbnica
4 and further on. The reason was small wages. Although
5 I, as director of forestry, did not decide on wages, we
6 had a general manager, a general management board, and
7 they distributed personal incomes or, rather,
8 determined wages.
9 So towards the end of these strikes by the
10 technical staff in Foca, I can even mention names, my
11 colleagues of Serb ethnicity called me into their
12 office and said, "You have to resign," Milojica
13 Damjanovic, Milorad Popovic.
14 Q. You had to resign. What was the post that
15 you were supposed to leave?
16 A. The Director of Forestry in Foca, although my
17 term of office had not expired yet.
18 Q. While you worked in the company, were you
19 assistant general manager?
20 A. No. Never.
21 Q. Never?
22 A. Never.
23 Q. Who were the top people in the company? No,
24 I am talking about the ethnic composition.
25 A. There were more Serbs than Muslims.
1 Q. Can you give us the proportion?
2 A. During the past few years, it was about 60,
3 65 percent Serbs in top positions, management
4 positions, and about 30 to 35 percent Muslims.
5 Excluding forestry. Forestry is one person -- I mean,
6 forestry had four organisational units on the ground
7 that employed from 80 to 120 workers, and all of them
8 were Serbs.
9 Q. I have to ask you something now, and you are
10 just going to give me brief answers. Safet Veja, what
11 was he?
12 A. What was that?
13 Q. Safet Veja, what was he? What post did he
15 A. Safet Veja, that was a long time ago. He was
16 a lawyer. He was in the legal department.
17 Q. He was assistant director for legal affairs?
18 A. Yes, of the legal department.
19 Q. But assistant general manager?
20 A. Well, assistant general manager. I mean,
21 because he was in charge of the legal department.
22 Q. When was this?
23 A. During the last four or five years or
25 Q. Hasan Pilav?
1 A. Hasan Pilav was in the management team for a
2 while. He was director of the sawmill or, rather,
3 Jovo Milosevic was director of the sawmill.
4 Q. Dzevad Lojo?
5 A. Dzevad Lojo was director, or he was in the
6 directorate. He was the coordinator of a different
7 kind of production.
8 Q. Ahmed Hasanbegovic?
9 A. He was at the thermal electric power plant.
10 Q. What was he?
11 A. He was director of the thermal electric power
13 Q. Mirsad Majstorovic?
14 A. Mirsad Majstorovic was in the accounting
16 Q. What was he there? What was his job there?
17 A. He was in charge of the accounting
18 department, but Rade Miletic was director.
19 Q. Pohara Suljo?
20 A. Pohara Suljo?
21 Q. Do you agree that he was the director of
23 A. Of Polinka?
24 Q. Of Polinka. That's the area of Rudo. All
25 right. Never mind. But it's within the Maglic
2 A. I don't know. But Polinka Rudo is -- that
3 was dismantled. That left Maglic a long time ago.
4 Q. Who was director of catering within the work
6 A. Sefkija Kulesman.
7 Q. I asked you about all these people. What
8 were these people by ethnicity?
9 A. Do you want me to read the Serb names now?
10 Q. I do apologise, but I don't think that the
11 witness has the right to put questions to me --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. You don't question
13 counsel. You answer the questions from counsel.
15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Were all of these people of Muslim ethnicity,
17 as you say?
18 A. I don't know if they were of Muslim
19 ethnicity. They did have Muslim names.
20 Q. Will you agree with me that these people,
21 whose names I mentioned, constitute a sufficient number
22 of persons within a work organisation to make it
23 possible for that work organisation to operate
24 normally, not to be obstructed?
25 A. I agree with you, that I read the names of
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between
14 The French and English transcripts.
1 Muslim managers and that there were Serb managers as
3 Q. But will you agree with me that if you look
4 at this entire structure, the legal department, the
5 timber processing department, investment, accounting,
6 legal affairs, catering, et cetera, all of these are
7 very important areas? Will we agree that these people
8 could offset the Serbs and prevent them from
9 obstructing the work of the organisation?
10 A. These were services organising the work of
11 workers in those work organisations, but they were not
12 in decision-making positions concerning the living and
13 working conditions of the workers in these units. Not
14 a single one of these directors or managers could have
15 said, "In such and such a work organisation, the wages
16 of workers are going to increase to such and such an
17 extent," without the order and approval of the general
18 manager and the management board. So their possibility
19 to act was limited. They were supposed to organise
20 production and carry out technological discipline in
21 these work organisations. All the other functions,
22 that is to say, of commerce, accounting, the allocation
23 of resources, all that was done in the main management
25 Q. Please, are we going to agree that the
1 assistant general managers did constitute part of the
2 management team, together with the general manager;
3 that is to say, they were a collective management organ
4 where decisions were reached collectively. And as far
5 as directors of organisations of associated labour are
6 concerned, they functioned within the statute and law,
7 and they had powers that were rather wide, didn't
9 A. These persons in managerial positions could
10 not make the most important decisions within the
11 organisational units that they worked in.
12 Q. Let me reformulate this. Was there a
13 management board in the work organisation?
14 A. The general manager with the management
16 Q. Who comprised the management board?
17 A. The general manager, a Serb.
18 Q. I'm not asking you about ethnicity, I'm
19 asking you about who was there.
20 A. The director, the technical director, the
21 head of accounting, the head of planning, the head of
22 "R" and "D".
23 Q. These are persons whose names I read out
25 A. I'm sorry. These are not posts, these are
2 Q. I read the names of the persons and the posts
3 they held.
4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. No
5 further questions.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic, any
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day to
9 all. I appear as Defence counsel for Mr. Kunarac, and
10 I shall continue the questioning of the witness who is
11 here today.
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
13 Q. Can we continue, sir. You have your
14 statement in front of you, the one you gave to the
15 investigators of the Tribunal on the 16th and 17th of
16 October, 1995. I would like to draw your attention to
17 page 2 of your statement, paragraph 3 on the first page
18 or, rather, on the second page, if the first page is
19 your details.
20 You said that, "Seven or eight months before
21 the war broke out in Foca, the Serbs tried to take over
22 the company of Focatrans. The employed Serbs, under
23 the leadership of Jovan Vukovic, stole some vehicles
24 from the company. They organised a strike. The
25 Muslims organised themselves. They defended the firm,
1 and this was the beginning of all the trouble in Foca."
2 Could you please tell me, when did you find
3 out about these problems in Focatrans?
4 A. The problems came into being when the workers
5 of Focatrans went on strike. They were ethnic Serbs
6 only; they were in the municipality. And I worked in
7 the management team of Maglic then, and that's when I
8 saw these people.
9 Q. So you're saying that the strike was
10 organised by the Serbs and that only Serbs took part in
11 the strike.
12 A. On the basis of what I know.
13 Q. On the basis of what you know. How did you
14 learn what you know?
15 A. On the basis of what people said.
16 Q. May I remind you that this was a common
18 A. I know that there were two or three buses
19 that were parked near Maglic, and that's where the
20 workers of Focatrans gathered, as they went to work --
21 I mean, as I went to work, I would see them gather
23 Q. Who was the director of Focatrans?
24 A. The director of Focatrans was a Muslim.
25 Q. And do you know why the strike broke out?
1 A. As far as I heard, this was because of
2 lay-offs, because Jovan Vukovic was actually dismissed
3 from work, that this was disciplinary action taken
4 against Jovan Vukovic. That's what I heard.
5 Q. May I remind you that the strike was
6 organised by the strike committee and that the strike
7 was organised on the basis of low wages, and the
8 workers asked for the director to be replaced. Both
9 ethnic Muslims and ethnic Serbs said that he was an
10 alcoholic and that he would ruin the company.
11 A. I can't say anything about that.
12 Q. So you don't know about this, you don't know
13 that the strike committee existed and that it consisted
14 of four Muslims and four Serbs.
15 A. I'm not saying one or the other.
16 Q. Perhaps I can remind you of the names of the
17 members of the strike committee.
18 A. No, I'm not denying this. I am not claiming
19 that it is so and I am not denying it either, so I
20 don't really need the names.
21 Q. So you cannot confirm that the request of the
22 strike committee was to increase workers' wages and to
23 replace the director, or can you confirm that?
24 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I'm not aware of
25 the situation, the general situation.
1 Q. Nevertheless, in your statement, you said
2 this was the beginning of all the trouble in Foca. You
3 know, you said that in your statement.
4 A. That's what it says there?
5 Q. Yes, "... this was the beginning of all
6 trouble in Foca."
7 A. Well, this is my opinion or, rather, not an
8 individual opinion. This is my individual statement,
9 but my individual opinion is not one that necessarily
10 has to agree with others.
11 Q. Could you tell me how you know about this?
12 A. Well, on the basis of what I heard from other
13 people when they talked, et cetera.
14 Q. When you talked to these other people, did
15 you know that the Focatrans affair actually split up
16 the population in Foca?
17 A. [No audible response]
18 Q. Do you know that because of these strikes in
19 Focatrans, the Chamber of Associated Labour of the
20 Municipal Assembly of Foca went into session, in view
21 of the post that you held?
22 A. Yes, I know that.
23 Q. And would you agree with me that the
24 Municipal Assembly of Foca passed a decision on the
25 replacement of that particular director, and a
1 temporary manager was appointed, a temporary management
2 team, consisting of two Muslims and one Serb?
3 A. I'm not aware of that decision. I was not
4 informed about the decision.
5 Q. However, you do know that the municipal
6 assembly reacted and that a decision was passed by the
7 municipal assembly in terms of the introduction of
8 these temporary measures in Focatrans.
9 A. I know that the assembly discussed this
10 particular matter, but I'm not aware of the conclusions
12 Q. Did you know that weapons were obtained
13 through the Focatrans company?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Does the name "Halid Cengic" mean anything to
17 A. Halid Cengic, I know the name.
18 Q. Do you know what position he had in Foca at
19 the time?
20 A. I have to identify Halid Cengic. Is that the
21 Halid Cengic from Ustikolina, the one who worked in
22 Ustikolina, at the mill there?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. That is what I know.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask
1 the usher to give the witness a document that I handed
2 in before we started today. I'm referring to an
3 interview with Mr. Halid Cengic.
4 MS. KUO: If the Prosecution can request a
5 copy, since we don't know what document is being
6 referred to.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is going
8 to be D12, Defence Exhibit D12.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. May I assist the witness. The Serbian
11 version is on page 2 of the interview, and in the
12 English version, it is pages 1 and 2. So in your
13 version, it begins on page 2, in the right-hand
14 corner. "Foca was the centre of armament ..."
15 Have you found it? It says "12" at the
16 bottom, but there's a picture of the gentleman. Do you
17 recognise him?
18 A. Well, it's not a very clear picture, but it
19 seems to be that it is possibly him, yes.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Can you give us the beginning of
21 the paragraph in which you say that statement appears
22 so that we can find it in the English version?
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
24 certainly. "Foca was the centre for armament", that's
25 the question, that's how the question begins, "and from
1 here, several thousand rifles were distributed across
3 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. I can't find that on
4 page 1 of the English version.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Where is it on the English
6 version? Because the English version is --
7 JUDGE HUNT: You said it was on page 1 of the
8 English version.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] On page 5,
10 paragraphs 1 and 2. "Foca was centre for armament ..."
11 Page 5, the top of page 5.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I should like to ask the witness, with the
15 Trial Chamber's permission, to read the question and
16 the answer.
17 A. "I do not know if it was really a centre" --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You have a document before
19 you, and counsel wants you to read the document. She
20 isn't asking you to agree with what is written there.
21 Just read, that's all.
22 A. You mean outloud?
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Yes. Outloud, please.
25 A. "Foca was the centre for armament. Several
1 thousands of rifles were distributed from here around
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, from Ljubina to Srebrenica. Even
3 Naser Oric came to get weapons."
4 That is probably the question. Cengic gives
5 an answer, and it is as follows, it is in answer to the
6 journalist's question, and here we have Cengic's
7 answer, he says, "I don't know if it was really a
8 centre, but we were helping various communities in
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina as far as we could, and when those
10 weapons were brought to Foca, almost must know, even to
11 get it in his own house. Saja complained to me and I
12 told him, 'Transport it to my house,' and that's what
13 actually happened. So it was not a problem of weapons,
14 but the problem was in the consciousness of the people
15 and the organisation." End of paragraph.
16 Q. And in this interview, on page --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: It is now 11.00. We will stop
18 for our break and continue at 11.30. So the
19 proceedings will adjourn until 11.30.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we continue with
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
1 Q. I should now like the witness to look at the
2 text of the interview and to read out, on page 3 of the
3 Serbian version, it is -- it's 6 of the English
4 version, paragraphs 2 and 3. Towards the end of page 3
5 it says you formed the first PL unit in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Towards the end of the third page
7 on the Serbian version: You formed the first Patriotic
8 League unit, that is the PL, Patriotic League unit in
9 BH, and Mr. Cenjic's answer.
10 Could the witness read out the answer.
11 A. "Already on the 1st of August 1990, during
12 the Focatrans defence, we had one platoon armed with
13 automatic weapons, a machine-gun and a mortar.
14 Everybody had camouflage uniforms and took the oath in
15 the Ustikolina mosque, putting their hands on the
17 Q. Thank you. Let me just say that this was on
18 the 1st of August 1990. That is what it says. I think
19 you misspoke. The date is the 1st of August 1990.
20 A. There is a "1" there.
21 Q. No, it says, "Already on the 1st of August
23 A. Yes, it has a "1", so that is the 1st.
24 Q. Very well. Can you now explain to us, and
25 confirm, that the weapons of the Muslim army and Muslim
1 people was organised through Focatrans, and that that
2 was the cause of the division and rift in Focatrans?
3 A. No, I do not know that.
4 Q. Do you agree with me that this newspaper,
5 Ljijlan, is published in the Federation?
6 A. I do not read the newspaper Ljiljan or
8 Q. But can you confirm that it is published in
9 the Federation, and that it is the Federation's
11 A. I do not read the Ljiljan, I never bought it,
12 and I have -- I don't know any of the headings, but
14 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Can you answer the
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Is the Ljiljan newspaper published in the
19 A. On the basis of information, I watched
20 television and the news bulletin, and from that
21 information I can say yes, it is published in the
23 Q. So you confirm that it is published in the
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Could you now clarify something
2 for me. You said that the Serbs tried to take over
3 Focatrans. Could you tell us how you are able to
4 conclude that, and how you stated this in your
5 statement, or is that your opinion?
6 A. It is my opinion.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I
8 would like the interview, which we have given
9 insufficient copies to the Prosecution, the Trial
10 Chamber and everybody else, to be tendered into
12 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, please.
13 MS. KUO: The Prosecution does not object to
14 its admissibility, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: It's admitted into evidence.
18 The number, Madam Registrar, or what is the number?
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document
20 is D12, and it's a Defence exhibit.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Would you now take a look at your own
23 statement. Paragraph 5 of your statement begins with
24 the following:
25 "I didn't personally see it, but I heard
1 from others that several months before the beginning of
2 the war the Serb civilians organised themselves into
3 military units and started military training at
4 Vucevo and Tjentiste."
5 Could you tell me what area -- that is to
6 say, where Vucevo and Tjentiste are located in relation
7 to Foca?
8 A. They are located to the south of Foca.
9 Vucevo is between the Sutjeska River and the Drina. It
10 is the plateau bordering on the highest peak in Bosnia,
11 which is Maglic. That is the border with Montenegro.
12 The Sutjeska River flows through Tjentiste, and on the
13 opposite side you have the Drina River with Piva and
14 Tara, the rivers Piva and Tara.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like
16 to ask the usher to show the witness a map. It is
17 Prosecution Exhibit 19.
18 Q. Can you show us the Vucevo area on the map
19 and show us the villages in that area. And this is on
20 your right-hand side.
21 And may we have it placed on the ELMO,
23 That is the area. Could you tell us what
24 those villages are?
25 A. This is Tjentiste, Curevo, Mihoc, Popov Most,
2 Q. Looking at the map, which are the ethnic
3 groups that are predominant in the area?
4 A. The Muslim population.
5 Q. Who told you that the Serbs had formed their
6 units there?
7 A. From these villages, the workers working in
8 the Sumartsvo, from this Curevo region, and there were
9 employees of Sumartsvo who worked in the Vucevo area --
10 who came from the Vucevo area.
11 Q. So you still say that these are villages
12 which are predominantly inhabited by Muslims?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What is predominantly? How much? How many?
15 In view of the fact that all these villages have -- are
16 coloured in green, and that means that they are an
17 exclusively Muslim population.
18 A. Tjentiste, Popov Most, in that general area,
19 three villages, there are red spots, red areas, Curevo,
20 Mioc, Curevo, and these are green. Tjentiste too and
21 Popov Most, within that composition of villages.
22 Q. Are you sure that that is where the Serb
23 units were formed, or did you hear that?
24 A. No, I heard it from people, the locals of
25 these villages. And lots of people from these villages
1 work in the Vucevo area.
2 Q. So you heard from the people?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were they Serbs or Muslims?
5 A. Muslims.
6 Q. Very well. Thank you. I have one more
7 question with regard to page 1 of your statement, and
8 the last paragraph on that page, it says, "The Muslims
9 organised a defence," that is how it begins. That is
10 the last sentence. The last sentence on the last
12 "They had some weapons in Sukovac and they
13 also had some cannons."
14 Could you tell me who gave you that piece of
15 information, and whether the Muslims who were organised
16 in the defence were wearing uniforms, and if so, what
17 kind of uniforms were they?
18 A. I didn't see that because my apartment was in
19 the centre of town and, as far as the guns are
20 concerned, the cannons, on the basis of the statements,
21 when there was a lull in Foca, when it became quiet,
22 one -- a man called Gerincic, and at the end of April
23 and the beginning of May I would walk around Foca, and
24 I visited a friend of mine in his apartment, and that
25 is also where Kamenko Gerincic is. And so the two of
1 us were friends, and Kamenko told the two of us that
2 the Serb laughed at how the Muslims took out cannons,
3 none of which exploded. And they mocked them and
4 laughed at them and said how unprofessional they were.
5 And on the basis of that story told to me by Kamenko
6 Gerincic, I was able to make that statement.
7 Q. Will you agree that the members of the Muslim
8 ethnic group also did military service?
9 A. I don't know whether they all did, but yes,
10 they did. They were duty-bound to do military service,
11 just like the Serbs.
12 Q. And were they trained during their military
13 service? Did they undergo training?
14 A. Well, I suppose like everybody else.
15 Q. Now, tell me, did those friends of yours tell
16 you whether these Muslims organised in the Sukovac
17 area, as you say, were they wearing uniforms, and who
18 did they get their guns from?
19 A. No, they didn't. Let me repeat: Kamenko
20 Gerincic told the two of us, in the apartment of
21 Mustafa Hadzic, he told us about it, he said that the
22 shells fell in the Dukat Mahala area, which is above
23 Careva dzamija, which is predominantly Serb-populated,
24 and none of them exploded, and that they were laughing
25 at the unprofessional way in which this job was done.
1 Q. Now, tell me, did they tell you where they
2 got these cannons or guns?
3 A. I don't know. Nobody told me where -- that
4 they had the cannons, but it was Kamenko Gerincic who
5 said that shells were fired from the direction of
6 Sukovac and that none of the shells exploded. That was
7 all he told us, nothing else.
8 Q. Thank you. And now one more thing, could you
9 show me on the map where the Sukovac area is located?
10 A. It is the left bank of the River Drina, a
11 little towards the north from the railway bridge.
12 Q. Can you indicate that to us on the map?
13 A. I don't have a map.
14 It is difficult for me to find my way around
15 this map because it's not a relief. I cannot see the
16 Drina River here.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: It is not even a map. The
18 other one that has the Drina River on it is also a
19 Prosecution exhibit. Maybe you can use that.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
21 I didn't bring it with me. But just to help us --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: No, the registrar has it.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It's no
24 problem, then. Yes, please. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Ask counsel whether that will
1 be -- what exhibit is that?
2 JUDGE HUNT: It's 12/1.
3 A. [Indicates]. This is the area. This is the
4 area around numbers 4 and 3, that area over there
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me whether
8 you can see that area from your balcony?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How far away is it? I mean, from the balcony
11 of your apartment to that area.
12 A. About 200 metres, as the crow flies.
13 Q. Thank you. Is that closer than Dub, the area
14 that you described to us yesterday?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So it's closer than Dub?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you can see everything from there, that
19 part of your balcony?
20 A. With binoculars, yes.
21 Q. From which balcony, the first one or the
22 second one?
23 A. The one from the dining room, from the
24 kitchen, the one facing the north.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
2 further questions.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any re-examination
4 by the Prosecution?
5 MS. KUO: Nothing, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any questions?
7 Thank you very much, Witness. The bench has
8 no questions. We are very grateful that you came and
9 gave your evidence to the Tribunal. You are now free
10 to go.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. This is the time now
13 where we may sort out the other motions, Mr. Ryneveld,
14 and the Defence also, before we start the next
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 As I intimated this morning before we began,
18 our concern is that the Defence has brought on what, I
19 suppose, is entitled "A Defence Joint Request for
20 Presence of Defence Experts During the Trial." In
21 order for us to make an informed response to the
22 request, I'm afraid we need a little more information
23 with respect to various aspects of what it is they're
24 asking. I note that they're asking for the three
25 name --
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you be slow for the
2 interpreters, because I want the Defence counsel to
3 listen carefully so that they can respond. We all want
4 clarification on this.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: It's also been pointed out to
6 me that this is a confidential request, and I'm not
7 sure, under those circumstances, whether I have
8 to mince my words or be careful. I won't name any
10 JUDGE MUMBA: You don't need to mention
11 anybody. Its essence is what they are asking for,
12 experts to sit in, to examine the witnesses. Yes, just
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I note that there
15 are three names mentioned who are supposedly Defence
16 medical experts. Behind their names are their
17 categories of expertise: forensic medicine,
18 neuropsychiatrist, and a psychologist.
19 Our concern is twofold, but perhaps I should
20 express my concern after the Defence has had an
21 opportunity to explain exactly what they hope to
22 achieve and whether or not these people are anticipated
23 to become witnesses, or perhaps whether they are being
24 asked to sit in the courtroom to act as advisors to
25 them for the purposes of cross-examination. We're just
1 unclear --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Or, indeed, whether they
3 actually want to examine the Prosecution witnesses
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Exactly. We were just not
6 clear. And once, perhaps, they've clarified that, we
7 can formulate our response in a more focused way.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let me turn to the
10 The Prosecution is discussing the motion,
11 dated 20 March, regarding your experts. So what we
12 want is clarification. What is the motion about? What
13 is it that you would all like to have done?
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
15 Honours, may I remind you of the fact that we raised
16 this question at the Pre-Trial Conference.
17 We are doing this for the following reason:
18 For example, we have four different statements made by
19 one and the same witness; one and the same witness
20 makes four different statements. In one statement that
21 the witness gave, say, ten days after he got out of
22 Foca, he doesn't mention the accused at all; in the
23 second statement, a bit; in the third statement, he
24 describes the entire situation, the entire event, and
25 refers to them extensively. We thought that an expert,
1 a psychologist, could be present while witnesses
2 testify so that the Trial Chamber could be assisted in
3 terms of the credibility of such statements.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please continue. You
5 explain everything, you finish. We will hear the
6 Defence -- the bench will have time to question you.
7 Please go ahead.
8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I stopped
9 because I wasn't sure whether everything I'd said had
10 been translated.
11 Another thing, the victims. If certain
12 events occurred, they certainly traumatised the
13 victims. We have to ascertain the credibility of the
14 statements of various witnesses, so we proposed a
15 forensic expert, because, in our opinion, some things
16 are medically unacceptable.
17 For example, let me be even more specific, it
18 was said that one of the witnesses was raped many, many
19 times, and only a month later, she delivers a healthy
20 baby. I'm not an expert, but I find it illogical. I
21 think that a forensic expert could explain this. They
22 would not be helping the Defence -- they would not be
23 working for the Defence, they would be assisting the
24 Court. That is why we raised this issue.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: May I ask further, when you
1 say "They will be helping the Court," in what way? Do
2 you want them to sit through the proceedings, observe,
3 and then perhaps address the bench on whatever they've
4 observed of each witness? Or do you want them to sit
5 in the proceedings and perhaps question these
6 Prosecution witnesses? Or do you want them to sit in
7 the proceedings and then assist, when you are drawing
8 up your closing arguments, assist you, so that you put
9 in the medical aspect of your closing arguments? I
10 don't understand what way they are going to assist the
12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
13 our idea was the following: The experts should be
14 present in the case of certain witnesses only, four or
15 five names perhaps, that --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I think we're already
17 discussing this. Let's be specific. For instance, all
18 the witnesses have got pseudonyms. So if you can give
19 us those pseudonyms, the Prosecution can also note
20 which witnesses these are where you want these experts
21 to sit in. So let us all understand exactly what you
22 want to be done before we make a ruling.
23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am
24 referring to FWS-48, FWS-87, FWS-75, FWS-101, and
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] As regards
3 these persons, our idea was that while Witness 48, for
4 example, is testifying, an expert, a psychologist,
5 could explain how it is possible for this witness to
6 give four completely different statements. Which
7 statement is the one that is most acceptable for the
8 Court, the one that was given after ten days or the one
9 that was given three years later? That was the general
10 idea that guided the Defence.
11 So it is the credibility of such witness
12 statements that is to be judged. I'm not trying to say
13 that things like this did not happen to some
14 witnesses. What we are contesting is whether this was
15 done by the persons who are sitting here.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: In fact, you would like experts
17 to give evidence also, as a result of what they
18 observed from the witnesses?
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: I notice that you also want to
21 address the Bench. On the same motion?
22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
23 Honour. Yes, Your Honour, if it pleases the Court.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Has Mr. Prodanovic finished?
25 Have you finished?
1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I just
2 wanted to explain something else, Your Honour. The
3 question that was raised at the Pre-Trial Conference,
4 this question is not a surprise, as my colleague, the
5 Prosecutor, said. This is not something that we raised
6 in the motion only. This was heralded at the Pre-Trial
7 Conference as well.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. Yes -- I'm sorry,
9 are you finished?
10 Mr. Jovanovic.
11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
12 may it please the Court. I would just like to speak
13 about this in more concrete terms, so that the Trial
14 Chamber would understand what our idea was. In the
15 papers we received from the Prosecutor regarding the
16 examination of certain witnesses, specifically Witness
17 FWS-48, we found out that after all these events, for
18 example a year ago, this witness, this witness had
19 serious health problems. The witness had a stroke.
20 That's what we were told.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: You are saying that is a year
22 ago, that is '99, '98? What year exactly?
23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
24 I think it is 1999. And the witness said that he had
25 had a stroke, and that due to that, the witness tends
1 to forget and cannot reproduce his or her memories. I
2 think that this is a significant issue that has to be
3 discussed here in a preliminary manner, so that we
4 would see how this witness would be examined at all.
5 That is one of the reasons why we suggested
6 that in certain situations, and in specific situations,
7 we have experts present, forensic experts, medical
8 experts, who would help us, and we imagine they would
9 be helpful to the Prosecutors as well, with regard to
10 these matters that we are not experts in. That is what
11 I wish to say, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
14 when elaborating this proposal, this motion, the
15 Defence took into account yet another aspect that
16 guided us in this endeavour. We have submitted certain
17 stipulations to the Court. One of these admitted facts
18 is that if the crimes for which the accused are being
19 charged did take place as the Prosecutor asserts, then
20 they do constitute sexual abuse of the victims.
21 However, in our very next sentence we say that the
22 degree of existence is something that has to be
23 ascertained in the case of each and every individual
25 What we ascertain, together with the
1 Prosecutor, as an undeniable fact is one thing.
2 However, in our motion we suggest that experts,
3 professionals, attend the witness's testimony and then
4 say whether everything that happened caused the witness
5 to have such -- to be in such a condition.
6 We will also see that certain victims say
7 that some victims were threatened and physically abused
8 in different ways. We are layman for that, however, a
9 Court expert, who would be here, who could look at the
10 scars and wounds, could give a qualified answer; that
11 is to say, when such a wound was afflicted, et cetera.
12 That is what my colleague, Mr. Prodanovic, referred to,
13 in addition to what he already said. And that is why
14 we wanted to have these experts present. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: If I understand you correctly,
16 you would like to have these experts present during the
17 time that these witnesses will be giving evidence,
18 right? After the Prosecution case, these same experts
19 will come as part of your Defence case and give
20 evidence, describing what they observed, and describing
21 according to their medical -- their expertise, what
22 their conclusions would be.
23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] If they have
24 something to say.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That means that you are
1 not asking that these experts of yours physically
2 examine the Prosecution witnesses? Is that what you
3 are asking for as well?
4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] If the victim
5 says that she was physically mistreated and abused, and
6 that there are scars of that physical abuse on her
7 body, then the person in attendance would certainly
8 examine these scars, or these effects, and present his
10 On the other hand, a neuropsychiatrist could
11 also be present, and he would present his expert,
12 professional opinion.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: You are saying all that,
14 understanding the number of years that have passed, and
15 also, if this expert wants to physically examine the
16 scars, that can't be done here. You need medical
17 facilities and that sort of thing. You understand all
18 of that?
19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I understand
20 that, but I am confident that the Registry can provide
21 for this. Of course, if need be. If the victim says
22 that there was no physical abuse, and that there are no
23 scars, then there is no need for an examination. Then
24 it is only for a doctor, a neuropsychiatrist to say
25 what he observed, if anything. Also a psychologist.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Prodanovic, I think this was
3 first of all your point. What you are going to do is
4 to ask these doctors to give evidence as to whether
5 they believe the witnesses. Is that what it amounts
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
9 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry. That was Mr. Kolesar's
10 point, but I thought you had made it as well. That's
11 why I asked you first. You do not suggest that they
12 are going to give evidence about whether they believe
13 the witnesses' evidence?
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] They are not
15 competent to say whether they believe it or not. That
16 is not their role.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, what is their role
18 that leads them to be here in Court to actually see the
19 witnesses give evidence?
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] If Witness
21 FWS-48 suffered a stroke, as my colleague Mr. Jovanovic
22 said, the question is: What is the quality of that
23 witness's statement? Can this witness actually
24 remember things? Specifically, the Defence obtained a
25 copy of this witness's statement made on the 15th of
1 August 1992, that is to say, ten days after the witness
2 got out of Foca. In that statement he does not mention
3 Kunarac or Vukovic at all.
4 Then the witness gives another statement, in
5 the security centre in Sarajevo, that is completely
6 different from the first statement that was given in
7 Novi Pazar. However, in that case the witness doesn't
8 refer to some details either. However, this is
9 mentioned in the indictment against Kunarac, and then,
10 finally, when the investigator -- investigation team
11 comes, then the witness says all of those things. And
12 that is finally what Kunarac is specifically charged
13 with in the indictment.
14 So we question the credibility of such a
15 witness. But we do not want to say that the witness
16 did not suffer that which she suffered. However, what
17 we are contesting is that it is the people sitting
18 here, specifically Kunarac and Vukovic, who did it.
19 And that is what they are accused of having done.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Could you explain this to me:
21 What is the difference between any ordinary citizen
22 having to determine whether somebody's telling the
23 truth, when they give different versions of it, and a
24 medical man doing so?
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am saying
1 this, Your Honours, assuming that these victims were
2 subjected to torture. They are not ordinary citizens.
3 They are telling -- they are not saying something they
4 saw, so I accept that they were, perhaps, subjected to
5 abuse. And that is why --
6 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. I was asking you why
7 a doctor is in any better position than we are, as
8 ordinary citizens, in determining where the truth lies,
9 because somebody has told a number of different
10 versions? Now, that's what I am asking you.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is my
12 opinion, Your Honours, that this might be of
13 assistance. I am not an expert in medical matters.
14 Let me explain, if I may. If one of the
15 victims, for example, says that cigarette butts were
16 extinguished on her arms, I think that there must be
17 scars. And a forensic expert would be able to
18 determine this.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry, Mr. Prodanovic, I really
20 don't want to go into the medical examination point. I
21 am simply curious to know how any of these doctors
22 would be entitled to give evidence going to the credit
23 of the witness. It does not seem to me to be a matter
24 of medical expertise at all.
25 Certainly, there may be something about the
1 gentleman who has had a stroke, but you have put it on
2 a very general basis, Mr. Kolesar put it on an even
3 more general basis, as I understood you. This is why I
4 am asking the question. That you are going to ask
5 these doctors questions about the credibility of these
6 witnesses based upon the fact, for example, that they
7 have given a number of different statements about it.
8 I do not understand how that is a medical expertise
9 that will assist at all.
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me
11 repeat what I said. For example, we have a witness
12 that is going to come and testify, and he said that a
13 month before -- she said that a month before she gave
14 birth she was raped five or six times and in continuum,
15 and a month later she was able to give birth to a
16 normal, healthy baby. Now, I am not an expert. I
17 don't know whether that is or is not possible.
18 JUDGE HUNT: You still have not answered my
19 question. That is a medical issue, clearly enough, and
20 you may or may not be able to give evidence about
21 that. I am concerned about what seems to me to be an
22 extraordinary proposition, that these witnesses will
23 assist us to give evidence -- to determine the
24 credibility of these witnesses from having observed
25 them. You want them here in Court, when they have got
1 protective measures in their favour, as to their
2 identity. So you will have to show some value for
3 having them here in Court to see them give their
5 Now, unless you can do that in relation to
6 whether they are telling the truth or not, I don't
7 understand how they should be permitted to come into
8 Court, to watch witnesses, see their identity, hear
9 evidence that's perhaps given in closed sessions, when
10 those sorts of things can be put to them, quite
11 properly, perhaps, as ordinary witnesses in the case at
12 the time when the defendants go into evidence.
13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] You are
14 quite right, Your Honour. That is a possibility, yes.
15 That is to say, that the experts be shown the testimony
16 and then they could give their assessments. So we
17 don't insist that they actually be physically present
18 in the courtroom.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: I appreciate that you are aware
20 of the protective measures, and part of your request is
21 that we revise our order and allow you to show these
22 statements to your experts, binding them, of course, on
23 confidentiality and all the rest of it, so that they
24 can assist in assessing whatever the witness is
25 saying. That is part of the problem.
1 Okay. Let us hear the Prosecution. I hope
2 that is sufficient clarification.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: It's been extremely helpful,
4 and I can only say that I heard some mixed signals, of
5 course, in the various reasons given. But I'll try to
6 get through that.
7 First signal that we heard was that it
8 sounded like, on the instance of the lady who gave
9 birth to a healthy child, it seemed to me that the
10 issue there is whether or not that the crimes to which
11 she would be testifying indeed happened. So that is --
12 that can be the only source there.
13 The other issue seemed to be credibility.
14 The one thing I have not heard, of course, is if what
15 they are talking about is in addition to the issue of
16 stroke, perhaps something like post-traumatic stress
17 disorder, and I haven't heard that suggestion, but if
18 that is one of the factors, that there are other ways
19 to deal with this, other than having those people
20 physically in the courtroom.
21 We are concerned, of course, about the
22 protective measures, and we want to ensure that
23 whatever way in which, perhaps, some legitimate
24 interests may be afforded to their potential witnesses,
25 that they are not in violation with the protective
2 For example, if absolutely necessary, I don't
3 know whether the witnesses could be shown a video. But
4 to have the people in the courtroom, when the victim is
5 testifying, may be an excessive way to accomplish the
7 JUDGE MUMBA: You do understand that part of
8 the motion is actually to ask the Trial Chamber to
9 revise the protective measures?
10 MR. RYNEVELD: That's what I hear now, at the
11 end. And if that's the case, then I think that our
12 concerns have been met. I would just -- I was just
13 commenting on our views as to why we sought
14 clarification, and perhaps what I am now saying is
15 redundant, in light of the conversation had with the
16 bench. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Are you saying you are going to
18 respond later or what?
19 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. Unless you wish to
20 hear from us further, my understanding is that if the
21 proposal now is to revise the order, not to have them
22 sitting in the courtroom --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: No. No. The motion is still
24 standing and you haven't yet responded. So they have
25 clarified what it is that they want. So we would like
1 to hear you on this motion, as clarified. Or, if you
2 feel you need more time to go and discuss and then come
3 back or put it in writing, that's all up to you.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: No, Your Honour. I think we
5 can probably deal with the matter now that we take the
6 view that if the purpose is having these witnesses
7 there for the issue of credibility, that that ought not
8 be accepted.
9 If the purpose is for medical reasons, then
10 there are other ways to accomplish this than having the
11 witnesses physically -- I'm sorry, the experts sitting
12 throughout the proceedings in the courtroom.
13 If the application is now to amend the motion
14 to allow the witnesses -- I'm sorry, to allow --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Actually, the motion is already
16 amended. When we sought clarification, that's what it
17 came to.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Well, then, perhaps give
19 me one second to consult with my colleagues to see if I
20 should -- may I? Thank you.
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. On the
25 basis of what we've heard thus far, we did not see any
1 basis that has been established for the presence of
2 these experts to be in the courtroom. That is our
4 JUDGE MUMBA: What about the request?
5 Because I did put a question to Mr. Prodanovic. Would
6 you like us to revise the order regarding the
7 statements of these witnesses, that they be given to
8 these experts? Perhaps that way they will be able to
9 deal with it whatever they want to do without being in
10 court, because that's another leg of this motion.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: To that, we would have
12 absolutely no objection at all.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: So the Prosecution would have
14 no objection to having all the statements of these
15 witnesses, numbered by Mr. Prodanovic, given to their
16 experts so that they can do whatever it is that they
17 want to do so that they can call them later to give
18 evidence on whatever issues.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, or to --
20 JUDGE MUMBA: What you're objecting to is for
21 these experts to be present in court, when these
22 witnesses are testifying. That, you object to.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct, because we don't see
24 a valid basis for that.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Anything else from the Defence
1 counsel before we deliberate on this?
2 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
4 Your Honour. I should just like, with your permission,
5 to give a clarification with regard to the positions of
6 the Defence in this matter.
7 It is my opinion, and the opinion of my
8 colleagues, that there has been a misunderstanding
9 here. We are doing our best to become part of the
10 procedure practiced in this Tribunal. Consciously or
11 unconsciously, in our submissions and in our addressing
12 the Court, we seem to revert to what we are used to and
13 the procedure we are used to in the courts of law that
14 we have been accustomed to working with. It was not
15 our intention to use medical experts to determine the
16 credibility of the witness. Absolutely no. That is a
17 pure misunderstanding that has arisen. And precisely
18 as my learned colleague, the Prosecutor, said, we would
19 like to allow the experts to become acquainted with the
20 witness statements, that is to say, with the statements
21 of certain witnesses, and to be able to give their
22 assessment of their statements. If necessary, then,
23 these experts would also ask permission to examine
24 those individuals.
25 Their presence in the courtroom at this point
1 in time, or in the future, will not be necessary, for
2 the protection of witnesses, and everything else. So
3 it was our idea to do what I have said now.
4 I do apologise to the Trial Chamber and to my
5 colleagues for this misunderstanding. I think it comes
6 from the different systems we stem from and the systems
7 that we have become used to, the procedure we have
8 become accustomed to, and how we present motions and
9 submissions to courts of law.
10 Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Thank you very
12 much. We shall take time to deliberate on this motion
13 before giving our ruling.
14 What I want to know is, who is the next
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I
17 wanted to just -- actually, there were a couple of
18 other matters.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's deal with them then.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Since it's the third issue,
21 the next witness is going to be 52, number 52.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: That witness is not affected by
23 this motion.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: That witness is not affected
25 by this motion.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: I also had 62 in the wings,
3 but in view of the fact that my friends have indicated
4 to us that 52 may take some time in cross-examination,
5 I would propose to not have 62 brought here.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness 52 or 62.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: No, 52.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: I suspect that I'll be
10 probably the afternoon session, or part of the
11 afternoon session, leading his evidence in chief, and I
12 suspect that cross-examination would take at least the
13 balance of the day. So I'm seeking the Court's
14 permission not to call 62 until our next court day,
15 which I understand is Monday.
16 After 62, we will call 93. I know that the
17 present schedule suggests 93 first, but it will be 52,
18 62, and then 93.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: So you are proposing to call 52
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Today.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Today. Because this is the
23 last day this week.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: So we can start 52. We may not
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between
14 The French and English transcripts.
1 finish --
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Right.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: -- but we will continue on
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Right. Thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: We all agree that 52 is not
7 affected by this motion.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Nor is 62, nor is 93. I just
9 thought I'd let you know that.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: The second matter, now the
12 third, was the issue of A.S., and in terms of
13 scheduling, we're in the Court's hands on that. It's
14 just that I want to remind the Court that we had asked
15 that she be allowed to testify in chronological
16 sequence when we deal with the issues of that count,
17 whereas my friends indicated that because this was a
18 last-minute witness, as it were, that they wanted her
19 at the very end. I believe the Court indicated that
20 you would consider the position and rule later. I'm
21 just sort of listing, as I understand them, outstanding
22 matters. That's all.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: So was it your intention to
24 call A.S. after 52, 93, and 62?
25 MR. RYNEVELD: No. She will be later, but I
1 believe it will be after 87 has testified.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: So it will probably be after
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Probably in a couple of
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: But we have to make travel
8 plans and those kinds of things.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So we wanted to find out
10 from the Defence whether or not they have had
11 sufficient time to look at the statement and to be able
12 to say whether or not we can go ahead with A.S. --
13 MR. RYNEVELD: That's right.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: -- in good time for the
15 Prosecution to make travel plans.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: That's correct. Thank you.
17 JUDGE HUNT: You remember the point was that
18 they wanted to be able to return home to be able to
19 make investigations before A.S. gave evidence. Now,
20 bearing in mind that we're sitting for a period of
21 three weeks at this stage, and then there's a week off,
22 is she likely to be called before that period of a week
24 MR. RYNEVELD: I find it very difficult to
25 predict because we are going somewhat slower at this
1 stage than I had hoped. If we can continue on the
2 present trend, she may not give evidence until after
3 the third week. But at the moment, we propose to have
4 her called -- excuse me. My friend has a schedule. It
5 was the 5th or 6th of April, which is just before the
7 JUDGE HUNT: Just before.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: But that is our optimistic
9 anticipation of the process. It may well be that it
10 will be after.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's hear the Defence.
12 Mr. Prodanovic, the question of A.S. You
13 were given the statements; you needed time to see
14 whether or not you can agree to the Prosecutor's
15 schedule of calling A.S., perhaps next week or the
16 third week, but this first stage of the trial.
17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
18 I'm speaking for the accused Kunarac, and I'm speaking
19 about the extent to which this witness affects my
20 client. We suggested that this witness be heard in the
21 second stage, not right now, that is, not this week and
22 next week. I mean, after the first break.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean you are unable to
24 prepare for this witness during these three weeks
25 because you are here.
1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
2 Honour, because I would have to go out and check some
3 things out on the ground.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Having heard that, I do think
5 that that is a fair assessment. If the Court wouldn't
6 mind us calling her, perhaps, out of sequence, after
7 the break, then that would certainly be acceptable.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: That would be fine,
9 Mr. Ryneveld, because these things do happen.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: If you need a witness whom you
12 have discovered later, even the Rules allow for that.
13 The only thing is we have to give each other sufficient
15 MR. RYNEVELD: That's why I raised the issue
16 as soon as we heard about it.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you. We can
18 proceed with the next witness then.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I call Witness 52,
20 but I think we may have a screen problem.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness requires closed
22 session or screening only?
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Not closed, but I do believe
24 that protective measures for this witness include face
25 and voice alteration, and we may need to have screens
1 down to allow him to enter the courtroom.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
4 I spoke about this a few minutes ago, our lack of
5 coordination and understanding. Every word in every
6 language does not mean the same thing when it is
7 interpreted or translated. It was my understanding
8 that we, the Defence, received the statement of Witness
9 A.S. that would be heard. I just wish to draw the
10 attention of the Court to the following: That is not
11 what we received, we just received a brief summary as
12 to what this witness should be speaking about. Let me
13 just clarify that point.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: And I did ask the Prosecution,
18 I did say to them, the witness is going to be limited
19 to those summaries, and the Prosecution did agree.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: If we're talking about -- I'm
21 sorry, I was transferring. If we're talking about
22 A.S., that is correct; that is, the witness will be
23 limited to what we have contained in our summary, at
24 least in our examination-in-chief. I realise in
25 cross-examination, the witnesses haven't always been
1 restricted to that, and that's wide latitude. But we
2 intend to lead her only with respect to the issues
3 contained in the summary.
4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
5 I'm afraid that there's a misunderstanding again. Your
6 Honour, I'm afraid that there's a misunderstanding
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can you explain what that
10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was not
11 referring to what would be the subject of direct
12 examination or cross-examination, I just wanted to say
13 that at this point in time, the Defence did not have a
14 statement of the witness. We got something that simply
15 retells the story that the witness has to tell. We got
16 an outline of what the witness would be speaking
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the
20 only thing I wanted to say. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That is what we are
22 referring to as a summary of what the witness would
23 discuss, and that's what I said, which the Prosecution
24 agreed with, that their witness will be limited to the
25 contents in the summary. It is not a statement, signed
1 by this witness, no.
2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes,
3 Your Honour. I'm just saying that we don't have the
5 MR. RYNEVELD: The reason is, if I may, that
6 we have no formal statement. We have had an informal
7 discussion with the witness, which has been reduced to
8 this summary of what we anticipate she will say. No
9 formal statement had been obtained because our
10 investigators only located this witness on the weekend
11 prior to commencement of trial. I believe I had
12 outlined that, and I apologise if I left my friend with
13 the idea that somehow we had a statement and hadn't
14 shared it.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.
16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
17 Honour. Precisely, that is what my question was all
18 about. Thank you. We've clarified the situation now.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: That leaves us with calling
22 number 52, and I wonder whether or not we need the
23 usher to lower the screens to permit his entrance.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Before we
2 call in the witness, certain technical measures have to
3 be taken. Could we take a short five- to ten-minute
4 break in order to prepare the room?
5 JUDGE MUMBA: There is voice distortion.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: We will break for five to ten
8 minutes. We will simply wait outside and wait to be
10 --- Break taken at 12.35 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Will the witness please
13 make the solemn declaration.
14 THE USHER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, he heard
15 everything in French. Now it is in his language.
16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
19 WITNESS: WITNESS 52
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please be seated.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar.
23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
24 the voice distortion is such that we are unable to
25 understand what the witness is saying.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters agree.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Registrar, we have a
3 problem. The interpreters too can't.
4 What about on the witness's desk?
5 MR. ZONDERVAN: If you use the volume button
6 next to the microphone which says "audio remote
7 witness," it controls the volume.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Could we perhaps try the oath
9 again, to see if it's working.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's try the oath again.
11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Are the interpreters all right
16 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Thank you, Your
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
20 perhaps the interpreters heard, but we did not.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Could you show them the button.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the technician show
23 counsel, please.
24 Can the accused -- can we try again, please,
25 the solemn declaration again. We want everybody to
1 understand you, as you speak.
2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
5 JUDGE MUMBA: The Serbo-Croat is not there.
6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's better,
7 but --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We try again.
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
12 JUDGE MUMBA: And the accused persons as
13 well? It's okay? Okay. So we can proceed.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Before I ask the witness any
15 questions, I should, at the request of the Court,
16 indicate the purpose for which the witness is being
17 called in relation to counts or background.
18 The witness is being called on the -- as a
19 background witness related to Article 5.
20 And again, with the assistance of the usher,
21 would you please give Witness 52 this piece of paper.
22 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
23 Q. Witness, do you see the piece of paper you're
24 now being handed, and does that bear your name and the
25 number that you've been assigned?
1 A. Yes, it does.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Might it be marked as an
3 exhibit. I see we've had 178, but I don't know whether
4 we've had a 177. I don't know.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Pseudonym
6 will be 52, and the name of the witness will be 177,
7 Prosecution Exhibit 177.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, I understand, sir, that you lived in
10 the municipality of Mjesaja, which is a part of Foca,
11 is that correct, say, ten kilometres or so south of
13 A. In the village of Mjesaja, in the
14 municipality of Foca, ten kilometres from Foca.
15 Q. I also understand, sir, that you received
16 your education and then you completed a building worker
17 course in Gorazde; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And after taking that course, you became
20 employed in the building industry, and you did one year
21 compulsory service with the army in 1968. Is that also
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And after completing your military service, I
25 take it that was with what was then the JNA; is that
1 correct, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That you then went to the SIP Maglic Company
4 in Foca, which is located at Brod, which is just three
5 or four kilometres from Foca town; is that correct,
7 A. In 1984, in Maglic, Foca.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness 52, I understand
9 that you are the father of one of the victims who will
10 testify later in these proceedings; is that correct?
11 Don't tell us her name.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Your wife is also one of the victims, who
14 will be testifying later in these proceedings? Don't
15 tell us her name.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Sir, I would like you to turn your mind,
18 first of all, if you would, please, to the year 1991 or
19 thereabouts. Was there an incident that occurred,
20 known to many of us as the Focatrans affair? First of
21 all, can you just tell us if that -- if you are
22 familiar with that issue?
23 A. Yes, I am partially familiar with it.
24 Q. I am not going to ask you for any details of
25 that affair, sir, but what can you tell us about what
1 occurred as a result of that incident in relation to
2 Serb and Muslim relations in the Foca area?
3 A. With that event at the Focatrans Company,
4 there came to be a difference of opinion between Serbs
5 and Muslims.
6 Q. Was that difference of opinion evident prior
7 to the Focatrans affair, in your opinion?
8 A. No. No, not for a long time, but yes.
9 Q. Prior to the Focatrans affair, can you
10 describe to us what the relationships were between
11 Serbs and Muslims in your area?
12 A. Up until about 1988, the relationships were
13 quite normal.
14 Q. And when you say "quite normal," were people
15 living in relative peaceful harmony?
16 If anyone is objecting to my leading here,
17 please do so. But I want to just get by some of these
18 preliminary matters.
19 A. Yes, in peaceful harmony.
20 Q. Excuse me. I understand that I have to
21 turn my microphone on and off between answers, so I
22 hope I --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: You keep up. Yes, it's quite
25 MR. RYNEVELD: I've just been given that
1 information. So I will try, but if I slip up, my
2 apologies in advance.
3 Q. Now, sir, do I understand correctly that the
4 Focatrans affair started out as a strike among workers
5 of a transport company?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And as a result -- forgetting all the details
8 of what occurred during that strike, is it also safe to
9 say that at the conclusion of this strike the effect
10 was that the Muslims were generally riding in buses run
11 by the Focatrans Company and the Serbs were riding in
12 buses labelled Viner or Viner?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, I'd like you to turn your mind, if you
15 would, please, to the first week of April of 1992. You
16 indicated you were working in Brod; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you worked on Friday, the 3rd of April.
19 A. The last day.
20 Q. Yes. And did something happen the following
21 Monday, the 6th of April, that was out of the ordinary
22 for you? And if so, can you tell us what happened?
23 A. On the 6th of April -- when I went to work on
24 the 6th of April, to Brod, to my company, when I passed
25 through the entrance, I noted that there were a very
1 small number of workers walking round the courtyard,
2 and there was no guard at the entrance either. There
3 was nobody in my department, in my work unit, so I
4 waited for a certain amount of time and I then decided
5 to go back home.
6 At a section of the road, I met my superior
7 and asked him what was going on, and he said he didn't
8 know. I asked his permission to go home, and I said
9 that I would go back to work tomorrow, if everything
10 was in order. So he gave me permission to do that, and
11 so I went home, and there was no opportunity to go to
12 work again.
13 Q. All right. Now, you've given us the
14 background there. I'm going to ask you some specific
15 questions. You say that when you got there on that
16 Monday morning, there were very few people there.
17 About how many people did you see?
18 A. Well, maybe some 20 people in that compound,
19 where I was.
20 Q. What would be a normal turn-out on a normal
21 workday, say, the week before?
22 A. Well, at least 100 people would be moving
23 around that area, going this way or that.
24 Q. This Maglic Company that you worked for, do
25 you know approximately how many people it employed?
1 A. The company employed -- it had a number of
2 departments within the Maglic Company. Maglic Brod had
3 approximately 3.000 workers, but there were more in the
4 whole company.
5 Q. Well, sir, now, this was a --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, Defence counsel
7 is on his feet.
8 Mr. Jovanovic.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I
10 wasn't watching.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
13 Mr. Kunarac, Mr. Kovac, and Mr. Vukovic have drawn our
14 attention to the fact that they are not getting the
15 voiceover properly, that they are no longer able to
16 follow the proceedings, that they can't hear the
17 questions and answers. It's about time for our lunch
18 break, so maybe we can give the technicians a chance to
19 put that right.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we've had a lot
21 of problems with the equipment, and I hope that during
22 the lunch break -- and I expect that during the lunch
23 break -- the technicians will rectify everything so
24 that when we resume at 14.30, the accused persons, the
25 Defence counsel, the Prosecution, the bench, and the
1 witness can get on and understand each other.
2 We shall adjourn now until 14.30 hours.
3 Mr. Ryneveld, before we --
4 MR. RYNEVELD: That's fine.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.
1 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we are continuing with the
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Now, Witness 52, just before we experienced
6 some technical difficulties before the break, I believe
7 you had told us about attempting to go to work on the
8 6th of April, and as a result of the situation being
9 different, you sought leave to be able to go home that
10 night; is that correct? Can you hear me? Did you hear
12 A. Yes. I went home, of course.
13 Q. On the way home -- can you describe to us if
14 you had any difficulty going back to your village?
15 A. I had no physical problems. The only thing
16 is there was no traffic about, so I had to walk.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: The accused persons are having
18 problems. They can't get the proceedings. What's the
19 problem? Yes, Mr. Kunarac.
20 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [Interpretation] Your
21 Honour, I now hear the witness and the interpreters,
22 but up until now I didn't hear a thing. I heard
23 nothing the witness said. Now I hear both the witness
24 and the interpreters. So could something, perhaps, be
25 done about that. I do apologise, but I really can't
1 hear properly.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: What channel are you on?
3 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [Interpretation] I am on
4 channel 6. I see -- I hear you very well and I hear
5 the interpreters, but I couldn't hear the witness. I
6 wasn't able to hear a single word from the witness. I
7 just heard his last sentence.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can something be done, maybe
9 the earphones themselves?
10 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [Interpretation] Your
11 Honour, everything is in order now, but the last ten
12 minutes of his testimony, before the break, I wasn't
13 able to hear.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: You can sit down.
15 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
17 I don't think we need repeat the questions. We can
18 continue from where we left off.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: You will be able to explain to
20 your client the beginning, because there wasn't
21 anything crucial, actually.
22 Yes, please. Let's proceed.
23 MR. RYNEVELD:
24 Q. When you got back to the village of Mjesaja,
25 did you hear about anything that was happening with
1 respect to roads leading to Sarajevo, or Gacko or
3 A. Yes, I did, via the media. I heard that the
4 road to Gacko was closed, and that the road to Sarajevo
5 was closed as well, and partially to Gorazde.
6 Q. Witness 52, I would like you now to turn your
7 mind to the 8th of April at 1992. I'd like you to tell
8 us what you know about the events that occurred in the
9 Foca area on that day.
10 A. I personally don't know anything, but I heard
11 on the 8th of April that the shelling of the town
12 began, the shelling of Foca. And, of course, I
13 followed the development of the events through the
15 Q. Were you able to communicate with people from
16 Foca, or were you able to communicate with people at
17 work, at Brod, which is just south of Foca?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Why not?
20 A. Because it was practically impossible to move
21 around anywhere. The shelling of Foca had started and
22 it was not safe to move around anywhere.
23 Q. Was there any sign of conflict immediately in
24 the vicinity of your village?
25 A. At that time, no.
1 Q. Did that situation change on or about the
2 24th of April 1992?
3 A. Yes, it did.
4 Q. In what way?
5 A. On the 24th of April, a Serb soldier came, or
6 a commander, with five other soldiers, and asked us to
7 surrender -- people from our village to surrender their
9 Q. You say a Serb soldier with five others. How
10 do you know he was a Serb soldier, sir?
11 A. I knew him personally.
12 Q. And did you know his ethnicity?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I take it from your answers that he was a
15 Serb; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was there anything about the way in which he
18 was dressed that led you to conclude that he was there
19 as a soldier?
20 A. Of course. He had an army uniform on. He
21 had a weapon and a radio transmitter.
22 Q. What kind of weapon?
23 A. He had an automatic rifle.
24 Q. How about the five people who were
25 accompanying him; were they also soldiers and did they
1 also have weapons?
2 A. They were dressed in military uniforms, had
3 automatic rifles with them, all four of them, and the
4 other one, the fifth one.
5 Q. As I understood your earlier answer to my
6 questions, sir, you indicated that these six people
7 approached people in your village. In particular, what
8 people in your village were told to surrender?
9 A. The Muslims, Bosniaks.
10 Q. In what way was that request communicated to
11 you? How do you know it was just Muslims that were
12 being asked to surrender?
13 A. The day before that gentleman sent a man, a
14 Serb, a neighbour, to tell our people that they were
15 required to surrender their weapons in the village.
16 Q. I don't know. This may sound like a dumb
17 question, but by "our people" are you referring to
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you present when that occurred, or did
21 you hear of that event taking place?
22 A. I was not present when that man came who gave
23 us this information, but I was present the next day and
24 the day after when we surrendered our weapons.
25 Q. Could you describe for us, please, the
1 incident whereby you and the other Muslims in your
2 village surrendered your weapons? Perhaps you could
3 give us a little bit of detail about that incident.
4 A. Well, actually, there weren't any incidents.
5 When these people turned up in a car, they went in
6 front of a house, and several people from our village
7 were gathered there, and then they said that it was
8 necessary for the weapons of the village to be
9 surrendered and that they were going to see that the
10 other villages along the Drina River would surrender
11 their weapons as well. So all the weapons had to be
12 surrendered so that nobody would be armed behind their
14 Q. And, in fact, did the Muslim inhabitants of
15 your village, in your presence, surrender their
17 A. Not that day, but they did the next day.
18 They surrendered their hunting rifles and three
19 automatic rifles which belonged to the reserve police
21 Q. I should back up just for a moment, sir. I
22 believe you gave evidence that you had served your --
23 or a period of compulsory military time some years ago;
24 is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were you allowed to keep your old uniforms or
2 old weapons when you were no longer an active member of
3 the military?
4 A. No, I was never issued any, neither did I
5 return anything.
6 Q. Do you know whether any of your Muslim
7 neighbours had military uniforms or military supplies
8 after their stint of service?
9 A. I don't remember, but of late, reserve
10 uniforms, that is to say, the uniforms of reserve
11 policemen, were being given out, so that three people
12 in the village with automatic rifles also had a reserve
13 police uniform.
14 Q. Were they being asked to surrender their
15 uniforms as well, sir?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you present when many of these arms or
18 weapons were surrendered?
19 A. Yes, I was. I was there, and I surrendered
20 my pistol and my personal weapons. Eighteen pistols
21 and rifles from our village were surrendered on the
23 Q. And the people you saw surrendering their
24 weapons, sir, did you know what their ethnicity was?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Would you tell us, please?
2 A. Muslims.
3 Q. Did you see any Serb people handing in
5 A. I did not.
6 Q. After the surrender of your weapons, sir,
7 were you free to come and go, or were there some
8 restrictions of some sort placed on the inhabitants of
9 your village?
10 A. Before surrendering the weapons, and after
11 the weapons were surrendered, we weren't allowed to
12 move away from our village anywhere, or to move around
13 the village in groups either. That's what we were
14 told, that we should avoid all movement in groups and
15 not to leave the village, to accept the law and rule of
16 the Serbian municipality of Foca.
17 Q. From what you were able to observe, did that
18 same rule appear to apply to any Serb inhabitants of
19 your village?
20 A. I'm not aware of that because apart from the
21 Muslims in the village, there wasn't a Serb household
22 there, and we weren't allowed to go up to the Serb
23 houses, except on rare occasions, if we were -- if we
24 did this on our own, to stop and have a chat with some
25 of them.
1 Q. Did you see any roadblocks at any point?
2 A. I didn't see any roadblocks but I did hear
3 that some roads had been blocked towards Foca and
4 Tjentiste, but I didn't see them, no.
5 Q. Did you hear any reports about any of your
6 Serb neighbours wearing uniforms, military uniforms?
7 A. I didn't quite understand your question.
8 Q. Earlier, sir, I had asked you whether you had
9 personally seen whether your Serb neighbours were
10 governed by the same restrictions as the Muslim
11 inhabitants of your village. I believe you indicated
12 that you didn't see any Serb neighbours.
13 My next question, then, is did you hear any
14 reports about whether your Serb neighbours were wearing
15 military uniforms and moving about?
16 A. I saw those people but I didn't talk to those
17 Serb neighbours who carried weapons. I saw them. I
18 saw both the weapons and the uniforms that they wore
19 during that time, that is to say, after the 8th of
20 April, up until the 3rd of July.
21 On several occasions, I did see them, yes,
22 but I didn't talk to them. I didn't talk to the people
23 who carried weapons.
24 Q. I understand, sir. So as I understand it,
25 you didn't speak to them; however, you did observe
1 their movements; is that correct?
2 A. That's correct, yes.
3 Q. Are you familiar with Buk Bijela?
4 A. I am.
5 Q. For the benefit of the Court, can you tell us
6 where Buk Bijela is in relation to either Foca or your
8 A. I don't know how to explain this to you, but
9 in relation to my village, it was below the village and
10 the regional Foca Gacko road, and by the Drina River.
11 Q. And after the 8th of April, which I'll refer
12 to as -- or that period after the 8th of April, when
13 Foca fell, are you able to say anything about seeing
14 anyone in the Buk Bijela area?
15 A. Yes. You could see that every day, almost
16 every day. They would all -- buses and trucks and
17 armoured vehicles with the army would turn up. They
18 would come and they would go.
19 Q. Exactly who do you refer to when you say
20 "they"? Can you describe, for the benefit of the
21 Court, the kinds of people that you would have seen in
22 these buses and trucks and military vehicles?
23 A. Well, they were soldiers dressed in
24 camouflage uniforms. They wore the olive-green/grey
25 uniform, some wore black uniforms. Some of them had
1 some kind of white bands around their arms. Sometimes
2 these bands were red. I don't know what colour, or
3 different colours. All of them were armed. And when
4 they came, they would shoot.
5 Q. Are you able to say whether these soldiers
6 came from different units, or were all local units, or
7 are you able to offer an opinion with respect to what
8 you could observe?
9 A. What I heard on the media, the media said --
10 it was said through the media that these were Arkan's
11 Tigers, the Beli Orlovi, White Eagles, the JNA and
12 other paramilitary units. But I have no insight into
13 who they actually were.
14 Q. Accepting that you heard this information
15 through the media, were you then or subsequently
16 familiar with such groups as Arkan's Tigers, for
18 A. Well, everybody talked about them all the
19 time. And I had the impression that it might be them.
20 Q. What I am particularly interested in, sir, is
21 whether or not you know whether Arkan's Tigers were a
22 local Foca group or whether they came from another
23 opstina or a different part of Bosnia-Herzegovina or
24 somewhere else?
25 A. Well, it was said they weren't, that they had
1 come from Serbia. But I personally didn't know that,
2 one way or another. The media said that they were from
4 Q. I have a similar series of questions relating
5 to what you refer to as the Beli Orlovi. What do you
6 know about them? Were they local?
7 A. I don't think it was, no. The same goes for
8 them as I said a moment ago for the others.
9 Q. And I am not sure what you mean by the White
10 Eagles. Were the White Eagles one of those two groups,
11 or is that yet a third group?
12 A. They were units -- the Beli Orlovi were an
13 elite unit, Arkan's Tigers were another special unit,
14 third or fourth, I don't know.
15 Q. Sorry for not making my question clear. I'll
16 try to clarify it. I believe, in response to an
17 earlier question, you used the words "White Eagles."
18 What I am trying to find out, whether that was a name
19 for one of these two groups, either Arkan's groups or
20 Buk Bijela, or whether that is yet a third separate and
21 distinct group to which you referred?
22 A. No, it's not Arkan's group. It's another
23 group, Beli Orlovi or White Eagles.
24 Q. The White Eagles refers to the Beli Orlovi?
25 That's what you intended to say?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you for clarifying that, sir. Now, you
3 say that you could see on a daily basis that these were
4 a number of soldiers, and were you able to tell, sir,
5 that they were soldiers by the way they were dressed,
6 or by what they were carrying with them? Did they have
8 A. Always and at all times. Not only did they
9 carry weapons, but they fired from them when they
10 passed by, or wherever they went past the village.
11 They were always shooting.
12 Q. Was there any specific reason that you could
13 see why the shots were being fired? Were there any
14 targets or any -- or was there just shooting going on
16 A. At that time, probably indiscriminately, just
17 like that they were just shooting into the air, having
19 Q. What effect, if any, did the shooting and the
20 conglomeration of soldiers in your area have upon you
21 and your family, sir, and your neighbours?
22 A. The effects were, first of all, that we did
23 not dare move around, that we did not dare go into our
24 land, we did not dare sleep in our houses. We slept in
25 the forest all the time. And finally the attack took
1 place, the attack against the village.
2 Q. Do you remember when that attack against the
3 village finally took place, sir?
4 A. The attack on the village took place on
5 Friday, the 3rd of July 1992.
6 Q. Where had you been during the night of the
7 2nd and the 3rd of July? Were you in your home?
8 A. No. I was in the woods. I was sleeping
9 there like all the other villagers.
10 Q. And why were you sleeping in the woods rather
11 than at home?
12 A. Because we did not feel safe in our homes.
13 Precisely because of these soldiers, because of these
14 armed men that we didn't know. It was never safe.
15 Nothing was ever safe.
16 Q. So what happened, then, sir, on the 3rd of
18 A. On the 3rd of July, it was a Friday, I came
19 home at 6.00 to hear the short news programme. I heard
20 the news. I went to a Serb neighbour's house because
21 the previous day he told me that he might go to Foca,
22 and I wanted to ask him to bring me some cigarettes.
23 Everything seemed so peaceful, quiet. Nothing could be
24 seen or heard. I didn't even notice my neighbour
25 moving about. At that moment I was returning towards
1 my own home and all of a sudden I heard a gunshot, a
2 short burst of gunfire up on the top of the village.
3 At that moment I looked to the left across
4 the Drina River. I saw a white Golf vehicle and two
5 men in uniform who were looking at this place where the
6 shooting had started through binoculars.
7 At that point, it didn't start shooting only
8 there, but all over. I went to the house. I looked
9 down. I saw a soldier in an olive-grey uniform, a
10 person I did not know, and I saw another one, who was
11 my neighbour. As I heard these gunshots, I realised
12 what was going on and I started to run away. I was
13 running uphill towards the village. I came to my
14 brother's house, and I just said to him, "Run and join
15 the women and children, and I am going to my
16 parents-in-law. I hope to be able to find them. And
17 then we should flee into the woods."
18 One of those two soldiers started shooting
19 after me, when I started running away. I don't know
20 whether he was shooting into the air or whether he was
21 shooting at me. At any rate, a bullet did not hit me.
22 When I passed by my brother's house, I came
23 to the shelter where my parents-in-law were hiding, a
24 neighbour and his wife and two children. At the moment
25 that I arrived, they were seeking shelter in a
1 depression, a hollow, where there was a lot of grass,
2 and I hid there with them.
3 The shooting went on and on and on. There
4 was screaming, crying women, children, window panes
5 were breaking. We'd hear voices saying, "There is no
6 one here." And then they would set the place on fire.
7 You could hear there was no one in the village. You
8 could hear all of this.
9 We remained hidden there, I don't know for
10 how long. And then, finally, a group of soldiers
11 arrived to this shelter where my father-in-law was
12 hiding, together with these other people. They came in
13 front of this shelter. They started shooting. They
14 sat there for a while and then they started searching
15 the area.
16 Q. I am going to stop you there for a moment,
17 sir. I am going to stop you there for a moment. We'll
18 just back up and fill in some details. And then we'll
19 continue on with your story.
20 Now, you told us, when you started describing
21 what occurred on the 3rd of July, that there were --
22 you saw a couple of soldiers, one of whom you did not
23 recognise, and the other who you did recognise as your
24 neighbour. Were both these gentlemen in uniform?
25 A. Yes. One of them had an olive-grey uniform,
1 the one I did not recognise, that is, while my
2 neighbour wore a camouflage uniform.
3 Q. This neighbour of yours, did you know what
4 his ethnicity was?
5 A. Serb.
6 Q. You went on to describe about the shooting
7 incident and you and your family and friends hiding in
8 a depression, when you then heard and saw that they
9 were setting fire to houses; is that correct? Could
10 you describe for us what you saw to lead you to the
11 conclusion that they were setting fire to houses?
12 A. I did not see them setting fire to houses but
13 I heard it. I heard them arrive at a house, break the
14 window, say, "There's no one here." I don't know how
15 they would set fire to the house, but you could hear
16 that very quickly. These were wooden houses; you could
17 hear the wood crackling. And later, when I got out, I
18 could see that everything had been torched.
19 Q. Could you see smoke or flames?
20 A. Later, yes.
21 Q. Later, did you see what type of homes had
22 been destroyed, whether it was along ethnic lines or
23 just everybody's homes?
24 A. Only on an ethnic basis.
25 Q. And I suppose I should be specific. Whose
1 homes were destroyed, Muslims or Serbs or Croats?
2 A. Muslim.
3 Q. And are you familiar enough with that
4 neighbourhood in your village to be able to say that
5 with some certainty, or are you guessing?
6 A. I certainly knew every house and all the
7 people in the village, and I can state that with
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 I'm going to invite you now to continue on.
11 You were about to tell us, sir, about -- I understand
12 that you and your family were hiding in some grass when
13 something happened. Can you pick it up from there,
15 A. That was my father-in-law, my mother-in-law,
16 their neighbour, his wife, two children, and I, we were
17 hiding there. They were hiding about ten metres to the
18 right from us. My neighbour and I, we hid underneath
19 the tree that had very low branches, while they were
20 hiding in the high grass.
21 When these soldiers started searching the
22 area, they saw the child, and then they started
23 hollering, "Hands up. Surrender or we're going to
24 shoot." The children got up. After the children, the
25 two women got up, and then my father-in-law, they all
2 As they were all leaving this hollow, one of
3 the soldiers said, "Is there anyone else down there?
4 Or I'm going to throw a grenade." The other soldier
5 said, "There's no need to throw a grenade. This is
6 what I'm going to do," and he started shooting. He
7 fired a burst of gunfire precisely in that direction
8 where we were. Fortunately, he didn't hit any one of
9 us. Later on, we realised that only a few centimetres
10 away from us, there was a bullet, that is, where the
11 bullet had actually hit some of the grass blades.
12 Q. I'm going to stop you there for a moment just
13 to clarify some issues.
14 So do I understand correctly that you and
15 other members of your family were hiding in a similar
16 area, but in two separate spots.
17 A. Yes. Yes. My family was hiding in another
18 area, and my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, and I, I
19 arrived later, that was another area, a different area
20 in this region. It's about 300 metres away.
21 Q. So you could see what was happening with
22 respect to these various hidden groups. Some of them
23 surrendered, but you remained hidden; is that correct?
24 And you did not surrender at that time; is that
1 A. That's correct. I did not surrender, I did
2 not go out, whereas those who had surrendered were
3 taken by these soldiers down to Buk Bijela. Two or
4 three soldiers remained behind. We kept quiet. They
5 started shouting, they said, "These guys have left but
6 two others," and they mentioned two names, "these two
7 others have got to be here and we've got to find
8 them." These are actually two of my neighbours, very
9 close neighbours. I did not see them, but their
10 voices -- I mean, we spent so many years together, of
11 course I recognised their voices. Then another one,
12 who came from a village that was a bit further away, but
13 then I saw him perhaps every day, so I recognised his
14 voice as well.
15 These two neighbours of mine, I could only
16 see them from the waist downwards, I couldn't see them
17 from the waist up. This neighbour from the more
18 distant village, he did not have a uniform, he wore
19 some kind of black trousers; I didn't see his face
20 either, whereas these others, they had something like
21 an olive-grey uniform, but I could not see well enough
22 through the branches.
23 Q. Let me stop you there again, sir, and just
24 clarify a few points.
25 You initially told us about a couple of
1 soldiers, and then it becomes obvious from what you
2 have later said that you are now describing more than
3 two soldiers. How many people would you say were
4 involved in the apprehension of your father-in-law,
5 your mother-in-law, and some of your other neighbours
6 and family members?
7 A. Three to four soldiers took them out and took
8 them away, whereas three remained looking for us, three
9 to four. I cannot say for sure whether it was three or
11 Q. So just doing the mathematics, we're talking
12 a group of six to eight soldiers in total being
13 involved in that process.
14 A. Approximately.
15 Q. And of the three to four that remained
16 behind, do I understand you correctly to say that you
17 recognised the voices of three of these individuals;
18 two of them were neighbours and one was someone you
19 knew from a neighbouring village.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you know the ethnicity of these
22 individuals, if, indeed, you were correct that they
23 were your neighbours?
24 A. I know they were Serbs.
25 Q. What happened next?
1 A. After the people who surrendered were taken
2 away, that is to say, the women, children, and my
3 father-in-law, these neighbours tried to search the
4 area a few times in order to find us; however, they did
5 not manage to find us. Then they moved down too,
6 towards Buk Bijela. We could hear the women and
7 children crying down there. All of them were being
8 taken to Buk Bijela. We stayed there perhaps until
9 10.00 or 10.30, as we were hiding, and then we finally
10 realised that there was no one left up there.
11 Then we started moving towards the top of the
12 village. We reached the top of the village in about an
13 hour or so, but along the way, we saw yet another
14 shelter where our Muslim neighbours were hiding. We
15 found this place and we realised that they managed to
16 retreat without having been caught. When we reached
17 the top of the village and when we looked back, we saw
18 smoke, houses that had already burnt down, and on the
19 top of the village, a house was still burning, it
20 wasn't totally burned down, whereas one can just caught
21 fire from the adjacent barn.
22 Then we moved towards the hill. We came
23 across the first victim, a Muslim neighbour.
24 Q. I'm going to stop you there just to fill in
25 some detail again, if I may.
1 When you were looking from the top of the
2 village, I take it you were able to sort of have a
3 panoramic view of the village; is that correct?
4 A. From the top of the village, we see about 60
5 percent of the village due to the configuration of the
6 landscape. But as one climbs further up, one can see
7 the entire village.
8 Q. Did you do that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when you did that, sir, did you attempt
11 to see how many homes had been burnt?
12 A. Out of 40 Muslim houses in this village, six
13 remained unburned; two were torched but did not
14 completely burn down. Later, all were torched -- not
15 all, actually. Two still remain intact.
16 Q. Again, doing the mathematics, does that mean
17 that some 34 Muslim houses were burnt? Am I correct in
19 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. On the first day, 34.
20 Q. You told us, sir, that your father-in-law,
21 mother-in-law, and other family members, were led away
22 towards Buk Bijela; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How do you know that, sir?
25 A. I know that because later my wife – my
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between
14 The French and English transcripts.
1 wife's mother told me, and also the other villagers who
2 were caught and brought down.
3 Q. Did you hear what happened to them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you tell us, please.
6 A. As for my father-in-law, I heard that Janko
7 Janjic, Tuta, interrogated him, mistreated him
8 physically, beat him, and later he was taken to the
9 Drina River. Soon afterwards shots were heard.
10 Someone returned and said, "Well, this old man ran
11 away." Since then no one has heard of him.
12 Q. You've not heard from or seen your
13 father-in-law since that day?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know what happened to the women and
17 A. Well, the women and children -- well, some
18 women were raped over there immediately, others as they
19 were brought to Foca, to the high school, where they
20 were kept for about ten days, I don't know. And then
21 they were transferred to the Partizan Sports Hall.
22 That is where they brought them in, took them away,
23 raped them and did everything else.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. I might be returning to that
25 a little later on. At this point -- I stopped you at a
1 point where you were telling us that you were at the
2 top of the village. And this would now be, I take it,
3 in the late evening hours of the 3rd of July, is that
4 correct, 1992?
5 A. Not late in the evening.
6 Q. I'm sorry. Then you correct me, please.
7 A. That was approximately around 12.00 or 12.30,
8 I don't know exactly. Around that time.
9 Q. Perhaps my mistake was when you mentioned
10 10.30, I assumed it was 10.30 in the evening. Do you
11 mean 10.30 in the morning that you thought that
12 everything was clear and you and your neighbour moved
14 A. The morning. In the morning. Yes. Yes.
15 10.30 in the morning.
16 Q. Sorry. Then that's the source of my error.
17 Thank you very much. So tell us then what you did the
18 rest of that day? I believe you were about to tell us
19 about finding the first victim, and I stopped you.
20 A. Yes. My neighbour and I went up there, that
21 is to say underneath the hill, because the biggest
22 shelter was there. Most of the people had taken
23 shelter there. And we came across the first Muslim
24 victim, our neighbour. He had been killed. And we
25 assumed that his throat had been slit, but we weren't
1 able to ascertain that. We just saw traces of blood
2 around the neck area, and he was lying face down on the
3 ground. But we did see traces of blood on his neck.
4 So we assumed that he -- his throat had been
5 slit, although we didn't turn him over to have a look,
6 a better look.
7 We continued up to the camp, where our
8 neighbours had taken refuge. And in the woods, in the
9 meantime, we came across two other male neighbours.
10 And we asked them whether they knew what happened to
11 the ones that had taken shelter, and they said that
12 they didn't know. And they said that they would go up
13 and see. When the man went to look, he said that the
14 tents were temporary ones, temporary shelters, and that
15 they had all been burnt, and that there was, in fact,
16 nobody there.
17 So we stopped for a moment to think about
18 what we were going to do next. And then we decided to
19 go up to the top of the hill and to see if we could go
20 on further from there, to escape somewhere. And we saw
21 traces of these people, which way they had gone. And
22 when we followed these traces, we came across two other
23 victims. There was this one man and a woman, and they
24 had been shot by the rocks, and they had dropped down
25 from the rocks some 30 metres. Perhaps they had
1 dropped that distance. And all their clothes were torn
2 and so on.
3 Thirty metres away from there, we came across
4 a group of seven men from the village. And you could
5 see that they had been ill-treated and then shot. And
6 later on I found out from these women that the women
7 and the men, all of them who had tried to escape up the
8 hill, that they had been shot at, two women and a child
9 were wounded in this attempt to escape. As I say, one
10 man and one woman were killed, and another woman
11 further up the hill. But we didn't see -- actually see
12 her. And then they were captured and all taken to this
13 one spot. And they explained to the women, they said
14 to them, "You have to go down -- back down with your
15 children and we'll keep the men to question them."
16 And the women said that after they had gone a
17 little way, they heard shots, and they assumed that it
18 was probably their men-folk who had been killed.
19 One of the mothers of the people who had been
20 killed said to another woman that she had seen it, that
21 she had seen one man hitting her son with a rifle butt,
22 and she saw his eye being -- coming out.
23 Q. If I could stop you there again for a moment,
24 sir. You told us about you and your neighbour coming
25 across the bodies of two individuals, a male and a
1 female, and you described how they had dropped. Are
2 you able -- I believe you opined that they had been
3 shot. Were you able to tell that they were shot, or
4 was that just guesswork on your part?
5 A. Well, we can say that with certainty, because
6 the other people that were fleeing with them saw them
7 shot, and then they -- you could see on all the tree
8 trunks the remains of the bullet holes and how many
9 shots had been fired. The ones that were in an open
10 space were hit more easily than the others, perhaps,
11 hit straight away.
12 Q. Did you happen to notice whether there was
13 any evidence of bullet holes in these two victims, or
14 were you not close enough to look?
15 A. No, I didn't go up close to have a look.
16 Q. Sir, do you now know, of the men and women in
17 your village, how many are accounted for after the war,
18 after the conflict?
19 A. Well, I do know, yes, for the most part.
20 They are scattered all over the world, from Sarajevo to
22 Q. Do you know how many were killed?
23 A. On that day there were 28 victims.
24 Q. Both men, women and children?
25 A. Yes. And amongst them was a one-year-old
2 Q. Returning to what happened to you and what
3 you saw that day, sir. Did you see anyone searching
4 your village later on that afternoon?
5 A. That afternoon my neighbour and I, and the
6 other two that we met, the two neighbours we met, went
7 on up towards the hill. And on our way we came across
8 six individuals, women and children, who went with us
9 to the foot of the hill, but we didn't dare go on from
10 there. And we planned on spending the night there and
11 continuing our journey towards Zelengora the next
13 At about 5.00, some of the soldiers went
14 around the places where the shelters were looking for
15 people, to see whether there was anybody there. And
16 they shot from machine-guns. They shot all around the
17 hill, to control the area.
18 Q. Did you and your companion go on for the next
19 couple of days?
20 A. The next day at 4.00 a.m. we crossed the hill
21 and continued on through the woods for about an hour,
22 and then we had to pass an open space and go by a
23 Serbian village, which we weren't able to do. We had
24 to wait for nightfall and for darkness. And we passed
25 this section in the dark. And so on Sunday, the 5th,
1 we reached that mountain and our destination.
2 Q. What was your destination?
3 A. Well, our destination was -- actually, we had
4 heard that from the upper course of the Sutjeska River
5 all the villagers had moved to Zelengora, so we wanted
6 to go there.
7 Q. When you arrived -- I take it you arrived at
8 Zelengora? That's what you mean by arriving at your
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when you got there, did you find that
12 there were other Muslims also assembled there?
13 A. Yes, because there were more than 1.500 to
14 2.000 Muslims up there already who had fled from the
15 region, that region of Sutjeska.
16 Q. And when you got there, sir, I don't
17 necessarily want the details, but I understand you
18 heard stories of other villagers and people escaping to
19 this area who had experienced similar incidents to the
20 ones that you've related to the Court; is that correct?
21 A. Well, yes, I did hear about things of that
22 kind, something about that.
23 Q. I understand, sir, that you, along with
24 others, eventually joined an army unit and fought in
25 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that correct?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. How long did that go on, like, when did you
3 finally join a unit and until when did you participate
4 in the conflict?
5 A. Well, I joined them on the 5th. On the 7th
6 when I got up to Zelengora. And I was without weapons
7 and spent some 15 days there. And there was a plan to
8 have the population withdrawn from Zelengora; that the
9 civilian population should be transferred to Igman and
10 the free territories. And I did cross to Mount Igman.
11 And from August onwards I was in the BH army, up until
12 the 16th of September 1994.
13 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to just bring you back to
14 the 3rd of July. You've talked about your
15 father-in-law and mother-in-law and other family
16 members. You have a wife and daughter.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where were they on that date?
19 A. I've already said that I sent my brother to
20 go up with the women and children and to take shelter
21 with them in the woods above the Serbian houses,
22 because we'd made this plan beforehand, that if we took
23 shelter there, they wouldn't look for us. So that my
24 brother and another relative, with 17 members of our
25 family, took shelter over there, and they stayed there
1 for two days.
2 Q. Were you present when they were captured?
3 A. No, I wasn't.
4 Q. Don't tell us where, but did you ever see
5 your wife and daughter again?
6 A. Not until 1994.
7 Q. So from the time that you had sent them away
8 for their safety until sometime in 1994, you did not
9 see your wife or daughter.
10 A. No.
11 Q. When you were finally reunited with your wife
12 and daughter, and again don't tell us where, were you
13 told by them about what had happened to them?
14 A. Yes, for the most part, I got information
15 about that.
16 Q. Now, your wife is a protected witness who is
17 going to be testifying before this Tribunal as well; is
18 that correct, sir?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And your daughter is also a witness
21 anticipated to testify before this Court; is that
23 A. Yes, she is.
24 Q. What did your wife tell you, sir, about what
25 occurred in respect to herself and with respect to your
1 daughter? I'm sorry this is difficult. Perhaps you
2 could start by telling us where they were taken.
3 A. On the 5th of July, on Sunday, together with
4 my brother and relatives, all 17 family members, they
5 decided to surrender to the Serbian authorities because
6 they had no way out, they didn't know what to do or
7 where to go. So that on the 5th of July, they went to
8 the home of our neighbour and said, "We're going to
9 give ourselves up." And the neighbour called the
10 military police and they took them off to Buk Bijela,
11 and my brother and relative were taken to the KP Dom.
12 According to what we learnt, my daughter
13 didn't tell me, she couldn't tell me, but she was raped
14 on that same day, in Buk Bijela, and they were taken
15 from there to Foca, to the secondary school centre and
16 further to the Partizan. They were taken off and raped
17 almost every day. If somebody succeeded in hiding
18 themselves in the bushes above the SUP, if they managed
19 to do so, they did. If not, well ...
20 Q. Are you aware of how long they were kept?
21 A. From the 5th of March [sic] to the 13th of
23 Q. Do you mean the 5th of July? I don't mean to
24 correct you. I'm just giving you an opportunity -- I
25 think you said March. Did you mean to say March?
1 A. No. No. They were from the 5th of July, 5th
2 of July, to the 13th of August, they were detained
3 during that time.
4 Q. And do I understand you correctly that your
5 information is that both your wife and your daughter
6 were raped, sir.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I believe you told us that there were a
9 number of male family members that also surrendered
10 themselves on the 5th of July, and that they, according
11 to information you received, were taken to KP Dom; is
12 that correct?
13 A. That's right. They were taken on the 5th of
14 July to the KP Dom, and we know that they were there
15 until about September 1995 [sic], when they were taken off on
16 several occasions, and they said that they went to pick
17 plums, plum-picking, but we don't know -- there's no
18 trace of them. But from a woman I met, I heard that
19 she had recognised my brother in the Drina River, some
20 20 kilometres downstream. I have no other information
21 or knowledge of them.
22 Q. How many male family members have you not
23 heard from since?
24 A. Of my family, two, and my father-in-law,
25 which makes three.
1 Q. Again, sir, on dates, and I may have
2 misheard, I didn't see the transcript, but I believe
3 you testified about September, and I think you said
4 1993. Did you mean 1993 or are you talking about 1992?
5 A. 1992, perhaps I misspoke. 1992.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe that is going to be
7 close to the end of my questions. May I just consult
8 with my colleagues to see if there is any area I may
9 have missed inadvertently.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I should turn off
12 my mic when I do that.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. There is one
15 follow-up question that I'd like to ask, if I may.
16 Q. Sir, I believe you told us, when you were
17 describing for us the bodies that you and your friend
18 or your neighbour found as you were marching along or
19 seeking to escape on the 3rd of July, that you came
20 upon some seven bodies. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Did you know those individuals?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Can you tell us how they were dressed? Were
25 they in uniform or were they in civilian clothing?
1 A. Absolutely in civilian clothing.
2 Q. When you say you knew them, did you know
3 whether they were Muslims or Serbs?
4 A. I knew that they were Muslims.
5 Q. Do you happen to know their names?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you tell us their names, if you so
9 A. I'll tell you, yes. Husein Barlov, Zijad
10 Barlov, Meho Barlov, Mujo Pekaz, Armin Pekaz, Adem Colo
11 and Sifet Colo.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. Those are my questions.
13 Would you answer my learned friends, please.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
15 The Defence, any cross-examination?
16 Mr. Prodanovic.
17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
20 Q. Good day, Witness 52.
21 A. Good day.
22 Q. Did you make a statement about what you are
23 to testify about today to someone?
24 A. To the Tribunal.
25 Q. Did you make any other statements? If so, to
2 A. To no one.
3 Q. Do you remember the statement you made to the
5 A. Well, for the most part, yes.
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the
7 usher please show the witness --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you inform the Trial
9 Chamber of the date of the statement you are referring
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
12 this is a statement made on the 6th of September,
14 A. What am I supposed to do?
15 Q. Can you confirm to me that this is your
17 A. Judging by the first page, yes.
18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the
19 witness please be shown a copy of his statement where
20 his signature is, so that we could authenticate the
22 Q. On this statement, there is no signature; is
23 that right?
24 A. There is something.
25 Q. Is that your signature? If that's your
1 signature, then it's all right.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: It may assist that the
4 original signature is on the English translation, and I
5 have a copy here if he wants to show him that. Again,
6 these are taken in English and translated into B/C/S,
7 which is why, if he's showing him the B/C/S, there
8 won't be a signature.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
10 A. This is my signature.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. So we can state that this is your statement.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like
15 to tender this statement into evidence, please.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: I have no objection to it
17 going in, especially if he intends to refer to it.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: It's found, apparently, at
20 number 48, but, of course, I didn't tender it as an
21 exhibit, so it won't have an exhibit number yet. But I
22 think it was number 48 in the bundle. I don't know
23 what number you want to assign to it. I guess it's D13
24 or something.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: That's up to the registrar.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Insofar as
4 this was not submitted by the Prosecutor, it will be
5 given a number, and that will be Defence Exhibit D13.
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you tell us where you were born?
8 A. In Mjesaja.
9 Q. What school did you attend and finish?
10 A. Four years of elementary school, then evening
11 classes, and then a course for construction workers.
12 Q. As far as I understand what you are saying,
13 you have an elementary education?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell me what the ethnic composition
16 of the village of Mjesaja is where you lived?
17 A. The ethnic composition of the village of
18 Mjesaja is as follows: My house was practically among
19 the Serb houses, and the rest was Muslims. So I
20 practically lived among the Serb population.
21 Q. Can you tell us how many families live in the
22 village of Mjesaja, how many families lived in the
23 village of Mjesaja before the war, both Serb and Muslim
25 A. Seventy or eighty, approximately, including
1 the entire village that is up there.
2 Q. All right. So a total of around eighty,
4 A. Yes. Well, I don't know for sure, but --
5 Q. Never mind. Can you tell us what the ethnic
6 composition was, in terms of the ratio?
7 A. What do you mean?
8 Q. I mean, was it half-half, or were there more
9 Serb families or more Muslim families or --
10 A. If we looked at the village of Trosanj and
11 the village of Mjesaja -- well, that's about it, more
12 or less.
13 Q. Let us explain this. The village of Trosanj
14 is a hamlet belonging to the village of Mjesaja, right?
15 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's part of the village.
16 I don't know how to formulate this, and depends what
17 you decide to call it.
18 Q. You are trying to say that the village of
19 Mjesaja has a few hamlets. It's a scattered village,
20 isn't it?
21 A. Well, at any rate, the village of Mjesaja is
22 the village of Mjesaja, and then there is Trosanj.
23 These are hamlets. In Mjesaja are Serbs; in Trosnjic,
24 Serbs; and in Trosanj, the Muslims.
25 Q. The next question. Let us locate the village
1 geographically, the village of Mjesaja. Where is it as
2 compared to the road leading to Foca?
3 A. On the right-hand side. Above the road on
4 the right-hand side.
5 Q. Let's be even more precise. Is it on the
6 road between Foca on Tjentiste, on the right-hand side?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us what the relationships among
9 the neighbours in the village were like? It was a
10 mixed village. Did you have a harmonious life? Were
11 there any problems. I am referring to the previous
13 A. In the previous periods there were never any
14 major problems. Things were normal. People would sit
15 together, drink together, perhaps they could even
16 quarrel, but there weren't any problems.
17 Q. Can you tell us when there was a worsening,
18 when problems came about, when divisions came about
19 amongst the local population?
20 A. Well, when the Focatrans affair broke out,
21 for the most part then it became obvious some went to
22 one side, others went to the other side.
23 Q. I fully agree with you. I would like to put
24 a few questions to you in relation to this affair.
25 When did you find out about these problems in
1 Focatrans? When did they surface?
2 A. I do not recall the date.
3 Q. Can you remember the year, approximately?
4 A. I think it might be 1990, the end of '90 or
5 in the beginning of 1991. I don't know, because the
6 problems lasted two or three months, the problems
7 concerning Focatrans, until they all broke up. It went
8 on for a few months.
9 Q. I am going to jog your memory now in relation
10 to this period. From whom did you hear about these
11 problems in Focatrans? Did you personally experience
13 A. Personally, I did not experience this. I
14 heard about it at work from my colleagues.
15 Q. So people talked about the Focatrans affair
16 and the problems of the division?
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know how it started in Focatrans?
19 A. I personally do not know how it started in
20 Focatrans, but people say, my colleagues said -- I
21 don't know. It was at work. There were Serbs and
22 Muslims, there was a group of about 10 or 15 of us,
23 and there were different comments with regard to this.
24 I heard from some that an effort was made to replace
25 the then director/manager of Focatrans because of some
1 alleged misdoings.
2 Later on, since this was not carried through,
3 some drivers were suspended from work, probably those
4 who organised it, and then these suspensions led to the
5 escalation of all of this.
6 Q. Do you know that this was a joint strike of
7 the Serbs and Muslims, and that all who were employed
8 in Focatrans went on strike together?
9 A. No, I didn't know about that.
10 Q. Do you know why the strike broke out? You
11 said that the Serbs wanted to establish an enterprise
12 of their own. Could you clarify this for us a bit?
13 A. My colleagues talked about this, people I
14 worked with. I mean, I did not directly participate in
15 this in any way, but according to what people said, the
16 Muslim was the director. He bothered someone and they
17 wanted to replace him. Perhaps I should put it some
18 other way. Focatrans was supposed to become a
19 mono-ethnic company. Since that was not accomplished,
20 then an attempt was made to divide it, to get two
21 companies in that way. And vehicles were taken away,
22 which is exactly what was done at first.
23 Q. Can you tell us who led the strike?
24 A. I think that these workers, the Serbs were
25 represented by Jovan Vukovic, and I think that he's the
2 Q. You said that you do not remember all the
3 details, that quite a bit of time has gone by. I'll
4 try to remind you. I am putting the following question
5 to you: Can you agree with me when I say that the
6 strike committee that started the strike had a mixed
7 composition, that on the strike committee were four
8 Serbs and four Muslims? I am going to read the names
9 out to you. These were Jovan Vukovic, who's an ethnic
10 Serb; Halid Celik, an ethnic Muslim; Trifko Pljevcic,
11 an ethnic Serb; Memija Mirsad, an ethnic Muslim; Slavko
12 Radovic, an ethnic Serb; Semso Soic, an ethnic Muslim;
13 Ilija Brkovic, an ethnic Serb; and Rifet Ozegovic, an
14 ethnic Muslim.
15 Can you agree with me? And do you know any
16 of these men personally?
17 A. I cannot agree, because I don't know about
18 them. But I heard that one of them, one of the Muslims
19 was the first. I don't know him. Was it Halid, the
20 one you mentioned? Out of these I know Vukovic and
21 Ozegovic. I do not know the rest.
22 Q. Do you know what the demands of the strikers
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. I am going to remind you once again. I am
1 going to ask you whether you can agree with me, since
2 quite a bit of time has gone by. The demand of the
3 strike of the strike committee, and the strike
4 committee represented all in Focatrans, was to increase
5 wages by 50 percent. They asked for the director,
6 Murid Dzuliman, to be replaced. He was an ethnic
7 Muslim. The head of the computer centre, Momcilo
8 Markovic, who was an ethnic Serb, was also supposed to
9 be replaced, and also the head of the sector for the
10 transport of goods and services.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: I am very hesitant to
12 interrupt my friend. Obviously, a wide latitude in
13 cross-examination, but I am wondering about relevance,
14 especially in light of the fact that the witness has
15 not been led on this issue in particularity and has
16 said he didn't know much about it. Now, if it's
17 significant, perhaps he could explain, for the benefit
18 of the Court, why we are embarking on this long
19 cross-examination about something that doesn't appear
20 to me at least to be relevant at all.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, you've heard
22 counsel for the Prosecution. What is your response to
24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that
25 this is the right point in time, Your Honour, to find
1 out about the background of everything that was
2 happening in Foca, because there is no denying the fact
3 that all people lived in harmony, peace and love before
4 the Focatrans affair broke out. It is the right moment
5 to see what happened through the Focatrans affair. The
6 witnesses talked about this during the previous days as
7 well. Who wanted to sow discord among the neighbours
8 who lived peacefully together so well until then?
9 Also, in the witness's statement certain
10 claims were made that it was the SDS that stood behind
11 all of this. That is why my questions were aimed at
12 this, namely, that at the Focatrans -- during the
13 Focatrans affair there was no SDS. So perhaps, since
14 this is a good time to adjourn, perhaps we could break
15 now and then continue with this line of questioning on
17 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Prodanovic. You are
18 aware that after all these preliminary -- they led to
19 an armed conflict, you are aware of that, and this is
20 not being disputed? So that the details about this
21 strike, Focatrans, whatever, are not really relevant.
22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well,
23 Your Honour. May I move onto my next question or --
24 JUDGE MUMBA: It's now 4.00 and this is time
25 we end. Unfortunately, you have to continue Monday at
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between
14 The French and English transcripts.
2 Witness, thank you for giving evidence. I'm
3 afraid you have to return on Monday for further
4 cross-examination and perhaps further re-examination by
5 the Prosecution. So you have to be in Court on Monday
6 at 0930 hours.
7 The Court will adjourn until Monday at 0930
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
10 at 4 p.m. to be reconvened on
11 Monday, the 27th day of March, 2000
12 at 9.30 a.m.