1 Monday, 27 March 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Would the
7 Registrar please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case
9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. The parties, I
12 take it, are as before. The Prosecution?
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Indeed, yes.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: And the Defence, I can see
15 counsel as before.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Microphone,
17 Your Honour.
18 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry. The
19 Defence team does not have a translation, they just
20 told me.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: What's happening with
22 translation into Serbo-Croat?
23 JUDGE HUNT: I think you mean the defendants
24 themselves, because they each put their hands up.
25 MS. LOPICIC: We do not have a translator,
1 Your Honour, also.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: What's happening with the
3 technicians? Can we find out, please?
4 I can see them nodding. Can the accused
5 persons hear the proceedings in the language they
7 THE ACCUSED VUKOVIC: [No interpretation]
8 THE ACCUSED KOVAC: [No interpretation]
9 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Now it's my turn. I have no
11 interpretation. Right. I take it everybody is getting
12 the proceedings in the language they understand. We
13 shall proceed.
14 Good morning, Witness.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: May I remind you that you are
16 still under solemn declaration as we continue our
17 proceedings this morning, and cross-examination is
18 still continuing.
19 Please, counsel, can you go ahead.
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [No interpretation]
21 MR. RYNEVELD: We're not receiving an
22 interpretation either.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: There is no English
24 interpretation, please.
25 I understand we are waiting for English
1 interpreters, so counsel, just bear with us.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters
3 apologise. We were all downstairs in courtroom 1.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. The Registrar
5 informed us that the schedules were issued for change
6 of venue and that everybody should have been aware.
7 Thank you for coming. We are going to continue.
8 Please, counsel, cross-examination.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS 52 [Resumed]
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
11 Q. Do you know that Special Police forces came
12 to Foca from Bosnia-Herzegovina with armoured vehicles?
13 A. Well, people did say that police forces came
14 to regroup and organise the vehicles.
15 Q. Do you know when this occurred?
16 A. I do not.
17 Q. Was this during the affair that we talked
19 A. Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I would like
21 Mr. Prodanovic to switch off his mic whenever he asks a
22 question. Thank you.
23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did you see those police forces?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What was the aim of their arrival in Foca?
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise,
3 but they cannot hear the witness at all.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness's microphone. The
5 interpreters can't hear the witness. Can the usher
6 please check that the microphone is working and that
7 he's near the microphone.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The
9 interpreters have to switch to channel 7 in order to
10 hear the witness.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE MUMBA: I understand the Prosecution
13 aren't getting interpretation.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: That is correct, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: We are also not getting this
16 interpretation. We're supposed to get -- we normally
17 get English interpretation on channel 4, and there is
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Only the
20 interpreters have to switch to channel 7 in order to
21 hear the witness; only the interpreters. Therefore,
22 the parties, the OTP and the Judges, should remain on
23 channel 4 in order to hear the interpreters. Can you
24 hear me?
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Now maybe we can continue.
1 We'll now get the English channel.
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I
3 continue, Your Honour?
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think we can move on.
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you know that the Special Police forces
7 used force towards the peaceful protest of the
8 supporters and the strikers?
9 A. No, I do not. I do know that some of the
10 vehicles were returned to their owners by the police
11 forces. How this was done, I don't know.
12 Q. Did their arrival lead to a calling of
13 relations between Muslims and Serbs, a further calling
14 of relations.
15 A. Well, I can only assume so, but I don't
17 Q. After the arrival of the special forces, was
18 this talked about in the company you worked for?
19 A. Well, not much. A little bit. People talked
20 amongst themselves a bit about it.
21 Q. Can you tell us what was said?
22 A. That the armoured units had arrived to give
23 back the vehicles, things like that.
24 Q. Did you come to Foca during those days?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Do you know where the Partizan building is
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have been
5 given information that the accused cannot hear now.
6 The accused cannot hear the witness.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: I understand that the accused
8 persons cannot hear the witness.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] For the
10 accused to hear the voice of the witness, they have to
11 switch to channel 7, but in order to hear the
12 translation, they have to switch to the regular
13 channel. Therefore, they should switch channels in
14 order to be able to follow the proceedings as usual.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall have a difficult
16 process here, because it's not easy to continue
17 switching channels all the time. So I can see a lot of
18 delay. However, let's try and see if it will work.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may, I don't understand.
20 If the witness is speaking in the language they
21 understand, is there any need to switch between
22 channels? Just a logical issue is bothering me.
23 JUDGE HUNT: I rather suspect they won't be
24 able to hear the translation. Hear it. Not the
25 translation of it but hear it.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Hunt.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the problem is counsel
3 is speaking in Serbo-Croat, they can speak, of course,
4 and the witness can then pick the witness and counsel.
5 I don't know whether they can do that on the same
6 channel, because for us we have to have to wait for
7 counsel's question into English.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: No. I understand that. I
9 suppose the difficulty I'm having is counsel is asking
10 in B/C/S, the witness is responding in a distorted form
11 of B/C/S, and the accused speak B/C/S. I'm wondering
12 why they need the interpretation channel.
13 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest that the answer is
14 when somebody is asking the witness questions in
16 MR. RYNEVELD: True, but I wasn't aware that
17 process was happening now. Anyway, I'm not trying to
18 tell anybody what to do, I just couldn't understand the
19 logic behind the difficulty.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: It may arise that the Bench
21 wants to intervene, Crown for the Prosecution wants to
22 intervene, so all those should be readily accessible.
23 Can we try and start again and see whether
24 everybody will get everybody else.
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You said that you know the Partizan building
2 very well. Do you know that on -- there were metal
3 bars on the windows of that building?
4 A. No, I don't know that. I know where the
5 Partizan building is located. I have gone past it many
6 times by car but never entered it.
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Is
8 everything in order now? Can everybody hear?
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I understand the accused
10 can hear and I think things are in order now.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You said that you arrived at Zelengora on the
13 15th of July, 1992.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you explain to us what Zelengora is, in
17 A. It's a mountain, a massive mountain. There
18 are several mountains which make up this chain or
19 massive mountain which is called Zelengora.
20 Q. In view of the fact that this is a very broad
21 area, as far as I'm able to understand you, could you
22 please pinpoint the spot that you gathered? Was it the
23 Trnovo feature at Zelengora and the summer houses
25 A. Yes. That is the precise location.
1 Q. Were there people who had fled from other
2 villages, not only your own?
3 A. Well, there were at least a thousand people
4 up there from the other villages along the Sutjeska
6 Q. You said that at Zelengora, a unit was
7 spontaneously formed for Defence. Did that unit become
8 part of the Sutjeska Detachment?
9 A. Probably it did. I just stayed some 10 to 15
10 days there.
11 Q. Could you clarify this when you say
12 "probably"? Did you hear later on that the Sutjeska
13 Detachment was active in that region?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You also said that you did have some
16 weapons. Where did the weapons come from? Because you
17 said previously that you had surrendered your weapons
18 in your village to the Serbs.
19 A. We did not have any weapons from the village,
20 but people who found -- who were at Trnovo did have
22 Q. When you came -- arrived at Trnovo, did you
23 come across people who did have arms?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Did you have mortars, anti-tank mines and
1 anti-infantry -- landmines. Did you have any of that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you know Major Zaim Besovic?
4 A. Not personally. I never saw him personally.
5 Q. Do you know whether he was at Zelengora?
6 A. Yes, he was, but I didn't see him.
7 Q. Was he there during the time you spent
9 A. Yes, he was there too, but I didn't see him.
10 Q. Can you tell us whether he was an officer of
11 the former JNA?
12 A. Yes, he was.
13 Q. Do you know how he came to be there? Was he
14 sent there by anybody?
15 A. I'm not aware of that.
16 Q. So you allowed for the possibility that the
17 Sutjeska Detachment was there. Did you have any
18 connections with the main command?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. While you were at Zelengora, did you have any
21 military operations at all, even one?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When the unit was established, did you take
24 an oath of any kind?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Do you know the text of the oath?
2 A. I do not know.
3 Q. You said that you stayed at Zelengora until
4 the 19th of July, when you went towards Mount Igman.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you have to get permission from the
7 command to leave that locality?
8 A. I did, yes.
9 Q. After your departure, did anybody remain on
10 at Zelengora?
11 A. After my departure, there were about 1.000 to
12 1.500 people, women and children, refugees still there.
13 Q. Were there any fighters who stayed on at
15 A. Well, probably there were. The groups that
16 were transferred towards -- to Igman were escorted by
17 some ten armed individuals, and for the most part these
18 were all hunting rifles, hunting weapons.
19 Q. If the fighters remained there, was that
20 following an order from the command?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Did you know Murat Fulija?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Did he stay at Zelengora, and if so, what was
25 his function?
1 A. I don't know. I didn't see him at
3 Q. Did you perhaps know Taib Pekan?
4 A. Yes, I knew him too. He was a director and
5 he was a teacher.
6 Q. Did you happen to see him at Zelengora, and
7 did he stay on after you had left?
8 A. He was at Zelengora but I didn't see him.
9 When he left for Mount Igman, I don't know, but I heard
10 that he came to Igman quite soon after that.
11 Q. You said you arrived at Igman on the 22nd of
12 July, 1992.
13 A. Yes. That's correct.
14 Q. Do you know who, at that time, held the Rogoj
15 Pass, which is on the main road running from Foca to
17 A. I don't know. I don't know who held the
18 pass, but we passed between Trnovo and Kijevo. That is
19 where the corridor led. So I don't know who held -- who
20 was in control of the pass.
21 Q. Do you know when the fighting took place
22 around Rogoj Pass for control of Rogoj Pass?
23 A. When I arrived at Mount Igman, there was
24 fighting going on over Rogoj Pass. I don't know the
25 exact date or the time.
1 Q. Tell us, please, who took control of Rogoj
2 after those battles?
3 A. I think that control was taken over by the
4 Bosnian units.
5 Q. When you arrived at Mount Igman, how was the
6 BH army armed? Did they have camouflage uniforms,
7 artillery pieces?
8 A. There were uniforms. There were those who
9 were wearing civilian clothing, but there was no
11 Q. Have you heard of Catic Mirsad, Mirsad Catic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you explain who he was?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Was he an officer?
16 A. Yes, probably he was. He was a Commander of
17 some kind at Mount Igman, but I don't know exactly what
19 Q. Do you know when the all-out synchronised
20 attack by the BH army on Foca was to take place?
21 A. I do not, no.
22 Q. Do you know when nationalist parties were
23 established in Foca?
24 A. I think --
25 Q. Let me help you. Can you tell me whether it
1 was in the summer, the spring, the winter, autumn?
2 Maybe that will help you remember.
3 A. Well, it was either the summer or the
4 autumn. Sometime around summer, autumn.
5 Q. Very well. And do you know when the
6 Focatrans affair started? You can also tell me whether
7 this was in the spring, winter, summer, autumn, what
9 A. I think it was in the autumn, but I'm not
11 Q. Do you still stick by your original claim
12 that it was the SDS that planned the Focatrans affair?
13 That's my last question.
14 A. In my opinion, it could not have been anyone
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 I have no further questions.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, counsel. I think
19 that's the end of cross-examination. Can we have
20 re-examination. I'm sorry. I'm wondering, were you
21 the first counsel to cross-examine.
22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
24 JUDGE MUMBA: So Mr. Kolesar would like to
25 put some questions to the witness. Yes, go ahead.
1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you,
2 Your Honour.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:
4 Q. Good morning, Witness.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. As we heard earlier on, you gave a statement
7 to the investigators of the International Tribunal, and
8 that was the 6th of September, 1995.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you please tell me: Is your memory
11 better now? Are your recollections now more precise
12 now when you're testifying in court or were they then?
13 A. Well, my recollection was better at the time
14 when I gave the statement.
15 Q. I'm going to read something to you. On
16 page 1 of your statement in the Serbo-Croat language,
17 in the last paragraph, in the last two lines, you say
18 that the roads towards Sarajevo were blocked by members
19 of the Serb paramilitary forces from Gorazde and Gacko
20 and there were only a few people who were allowed to
21 pass through. Did you personally see these
23 A. No. Personally, I did not.
24 Q. Yes. But if we look at this paragraph, it
25 seems that you were personally there and that you were
1 going back from work and you were going to your village
2 of Mjesaja and that you saw the roadblock?
3 A. That's not what the statement says, and it
4 doesn't say that I saw this personally. And I just
5 said there was no traffic, the traffic was made
6 impossible, and that somewhere around Gacko and towards
7 Sarajevo there were roadblocks.
8 Q. Could you please tell me which people?
9 A. Well, on that day I saw a few people.
10 Q. It's a bit illogical to me, but let it be.
11 On page 2, at the very outset you say that a young
12 policeman, a Muslim, Abid Ramovic, was a victim of Serb
13 aggression. Is it correct that that's what your
14 statement says?
15 A. Yes, yes. But he's not a young policeman;
16 he's quite old. I don't know who wrote this "young,"
17 but whatever.
18 Q. Were you perhaps a direct witness of this, an
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you talk to someone about this?
22 A. About what?
23 Q. About the death of Abid Ramovic. After the
24 event, of course.
25 A. This was heard in the news of Radio Sarajevo.
1 Q. Do you know under which circumstances he lost
2 his life?
3 A. It was said on Radio Sarajevo that he tried
4 to save a woman who was wounded and that someone killed
5 him with a sniper from the mountain lodge, but that's
6 all I know.
7 Q. Tell me, was it mentioned on Radio Sarajevo
8 who was on patrol with him on that day?
9 A. Yes, it was said, but I don't remember.
10 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that a Serb
11 policeman was on patrol duty with him?
12 A. I think so, because that's the way it usually
13 was. That's the way the patrols were usually composed.
14 Q. All right. Were you in Foca during the
16 A. I was in my village.
17 Q. When did the conflict break out? When did
18 the fighting start?
19 A. Where?
20 Q. In Foca.
21 A. I think the first shelling started on the 8th
22 of April, but I don't know about the details.
23 Q. Do you know anything about the shelling, who
24 started it, where did it start, where the shells fell?
25 A. No, I don't know anything, because I'm far
1 away from Foca. I'm not aware of this.
2 Q. Tell me, do you know whether there were
3 houses that were burned on that day in Foca?
4 A. Rumour had it.
5 Q. And were there any rumours to the effect of
6 who was fighting whom?
7 A. Actually, it was the Muslim people who were
8 fought against. However, these rumours said that there
9 were Arkan people, the White Eagles, Beli Orlovi, and
10 many other units, but I personally am not aware of
11 that, because I personally didn't see it. I did not go
12 to town, so I don't know.
13 Q. Did the Muslims take part in this battle or
14 was it only Serbs who were shooting?
15 A. The Muslims did not have weapons. If
16 somebody did have any weapons, of course they defended
17 themselves, but I really do not know about this.
18 Q. You say the Muslims did not have weapons.
19 How do you know?
20 A. Well, if they had weapons, things would have
21 been quite different. There would have been a lot more
22 fighting. The town could not be taken away just like
24 Q. On the same page, in the same paragraph, in
25 the Serbo-Croat translation, it says, "In our village
1 there was shooting all over and also roadblocks were
2 set up." Whereas in the English text it says, "Around
3 our village there was shooting and there were
5 And now I'm asking you the following: Since
6 you made a statement to the investigators of the
7 Tribunal in the Serbo-Croat language, and since there
8 is a discrepancy between the English original and the
9 text of the Serbo-Croat language, what did you actually
10 say? Was there shooting in your village and were there
11 roadblocks, or is it the way the English text says:
12 "There was shooting all around our village and there
13 were roadblocks"?
14 A. The English version is correct. There
15 weren't any roadblocks in the village. They were
16 outside the village, towards Brod. People said that
17 there were roadblocks, but we were not in a position to
18 see the roadblocks. However, around the village there
19 was shooting every night.
20 Q. And did you hear where these roadblocks were,
21 since you say that you did not see it?
22 A. At Trnovace.
23 Q. Oh, I see. At Trnovace. And who placed
24 these roadblocks? Did anybody talk about that?
25 A. There was no one else to do it but the Serbs.
1 Q. I don't know why that is your conclusion.
2 Could you explain why that is your conclusion, that
3 Serbs had put up roadblocks?
4 A. Well, there were no other armed groups, nor
5 any other units, nor anyone. There were only Serb
7 Q. I just wish to remind you of the following
8 that's further on in the text. The 24th of April, a
9 Serb commander came to the village, but then before
10 that there was no shooting in or around the village.
11 Can you say where these roadblocks were and where was
12 the shooting heard in relation to your village?
13 A. There was shooting through the village, below
14 the village. There was always shooting below the
15 village, from day one. In Foca, approximately from the
16 10th of April onwards, there was always shooting below
17 the village where the military passed, where vehicles
18 passed. There was shooting all the time. I don't know
19 what was actually happening, but there was shooting.
20 Q. My conclusion is that there was shooting on a
21 road that passed by the village.
22 A. Yes, yes, yes.
23 Q. Which road was that?
24 A. The road between Foca and Tjentiste.
25 Q. You say that the village was under siege and
1 cut off from the town.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What does that mean? Could you please
4 explain that to us? I would like to fully grasp the
5 situation as it was on the ground during those days.
6 You know, we would like to get a clear picture as to
7 the position that you were in together with the other
9 A. I imagine you do already have a picture, but
10 the village was under siege, because no one dared go
11 anywhere. The villagers did not dare go anywhere
12 outside of the confines of the village itself,
13 precisely because of that shooting, because of the
14 fear. People slept in the woods. During the day they
15 would come to their houses stealthily and try to get
16 some supplies and then go back to the forest again.
17 Q. I want you to understand what I'm asking.
18 I'm not putting these questions to you only for my own
19 sake but for the sake of the Court and for all
20 present. So please do not feel offended if some things
21 do not seem logical to you when I ask you.
22 You said that you did your military service.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you must know what the Territorial Defence
25 is and what the Reserve Force is.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'm going to ask you what the situation was
3 in your particular case concerning your military
4 service. Did you report to the department at the
5 Municipality for National Defence? I'm not interested
6 in your exact reserve position, but did you have a
7 reserve assignment?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was it with the Territorial Defence or with
10 the Reserve Force?
11 A. At first it was within the Reserve Force, and
12 later it was within the Territorial Defence.
13 Q. Can we agree that members of the Territorial
14 Defence and members of the Reserve Force had uniforms
15 at home, of course without any weapons, except for
16 certain individuals?
17 A. The Reserve Force did at a given point in
18 time, but I do not remember for the Territorial
19 Defence. I never had one.
20 Q. Tell me, as for the Reserve Force and the
21 Territorial Defence units, were there Muslims on these
22 units, of course on the condition that they had done
23 their military service?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know, perhaps, after the elections of
1 1991, who was commander of the Territorial Defence of
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Oh, you don't know. Did you have a uniform?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Why not, if you were on the Reserve Force?
7 A. I was a messenger.
8 Q. Well, to the best of my knowledge, the
9 messenger is the first person who starts the military
10 machinery if there is an imminent danger of war; you
11 would have to be the first to have a uniform.
12 A. No, I did not have a uniform. I was a
13 messenger with the head of the local office.
14 Q. All right. Let us proceed. Further on you
15 said in this statement, and you confirmed it here in
16 court, that on the 24th of April, soldiers came and
17 that they all wore reserve officer uniforms, that they
18 had insignia showing their rank, and that they were
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you tell me what these uniforms looked
23 A. All five soldiers had camouflage uniforms.
24 Q. Camouflage uniforms?
25 A. Yes, camouflage uniforms.
1 Q. Can you tell me whether there's a difference
2 between a camouflage uniform for a soldier and a
3 camouflage uniform for a reserve officer?
4 A. I'm not aware of any difference.
5 Q. Well, could you please tell me, then, how
6 could you say that they wore reserve officer uniforms?
7 A. I know that one of them is a reserve officer,
8 and it is probably on that basis that I said that.
9 Q. How come you know?
10 A. Well, I know. He's a neighbour of mine and I
11 know that well.
12 Q. Are you referring to Jovan Vukovic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Who are you referring to?
15 A. I'm referring to ...
16 Q. Who are you referring to?
17 A. I'm referring to Dragan Zivanovic, to
18 Dragomir Dragan Zivanovic.
19 Q. And what rank did he have, since you knew
20 that he was --
21 A. In the JNA he had completed a reserve school
22 for NCOs and he was a corporal.
23 Q. Oh, I see. A corporal. So did he have any
24 insignia on his uniform at that time?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What kind of insignia?
2 A. I'm not familiar with them, because I hadn't
3 seen them before. The ones that he had on his cap and
4 the ones that he had here [indicates].
5 THE INTERPRETER: Witness indicated his
7 A. I had never seen such insignia before that.
8 MR. KOLESAR:
9 Q. These are some kind of new insignia ranks?
10 A. Yes, yes. This was something quite new for
12 Q. Do you know what rank this involved? Can you
13 describe it?
14 A. I don't know. I can't remember.
15 Q. You can't remember. Did anybody else among
16 the present soldiers have a rank?
17 A. No.
18 Q. No one?
19 A. Well, I didn't see any.
20 Q. Let me ask you directly. Did you see whether
21 Jovan Vukovic had any insignia of rank?
22 A. I didn't see any. I don't know what rank he
23 held, but he was in command. He had a Motorola set and
24 he was in command of the people around the village and
25 in the hills.
1 Q. I am asking you again whether you did your
2 military service.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, in the army, and I think you'll agree
5 with me, there is the chain of command. Could you then
6 please explain to me how Jovan Vukovic, without rank,
7 could be in command, rather than Zivanovic, who you say
8 had an officer's training course and had a rank and was
9 on the command staff of the reserve force?
10 A. I really can't say. I don't know the kind of
11 team relationship they had and who would come before
12 whom. I really don't know.
13 Q. So out of all these people present, it was
14 only this man, Zivanovic, who had a rank. You don't
15 know his rank.
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Whereas none of the others had any rank, but
18 Jovan Vukovic was in command?
19 A. He issued commands.
20 Q. Well, that's even less logical, if this one
21 person has a rank, and the other person, who doesn't,
22 issues orders. Did you hear the contents of those
24 A. Well, he went further away from us. He went
25 some ten meters off, so I couldn't hear his actual
2 Q. From what I have been able to gather so far,
3 I see that you knew both Vukovic and Zivanovic of the
4 people present. Did you know any of the other soldiers
5 who were there?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Whom did you know?
8 A. I knew Slobodan Popovic, Nebojsa Jankovic,
9 and Cosovic.
10 Q. How did you happen to know these people?
11 A. Well, they were all neighbours of mine, more
12 or less.
13 Q. In that context, you further state that on
14 the occasion the locals surrendered 18 rifles, three
15 automatic rifles, and so on. Do you know whether
16 harboring weapons, especially automatic ones, was
17 allowed at all? Was that an order?
18 A. Yes, they did surrender a total of 18
19 barrels, hunting rifles, pistols, and the three
20 automatic rifles. Those three automatic rifles
21 belonged to the police reserve force and they happened
22 to be with them at the time.
23 Q. The individuals who surrendered the rifles,
24 did they have permits to carry arms?
25 A. Yes, they had permits for hunting weapons.
1 Q. And what about the pistols?
2 A. Yes, they had pistol permits as well.
3 Q. Did you yourself surrender any weapons?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. What?
6 A. A pistol.
7 Q. Did you have a permit for it?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Do you happen to remember, of these
10 18 barrels, as you said, who surrendered arms, who
11 turned in their weapons?
12 A. Well, some things I do remember, others I
14 Q. Well, let me ask you again. Did they all
15 have permits to carry firearms?
16 A. Yes, they did. They all had permits. Nobody
17 had hidden weapons, I'm quite sure of that.
18 Q. After they turned in their weapons, were they
19 issued receipts for them?
20 A. Yes, they were.
21 Q. Were those receipts the regular type of
22 receipt which would state the number of the firearm
23 itself, the name and surname of the person handing it
24 in, the exact weapon concerned, and the signature and
25 so forth?
1 A. Well, the permit was printed on a piece of
2 paper with the name and surname and the time at which
3 the arms were handed in, the number of the weapon, and
4 the signature of the individual who received, who took
5 in the weapon.
6 Q. I see. Have you ever heard of Senad
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. His -- his name is Saja.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did Muslims buy weapons from him?
12 A. I'm not aware of that.
13 Q. You don't know. You state that in the course
14 of the conflict, Arkan soldiers would turn up and the
15 Beli Orlovi or White Eagles would come to Buk Bijela by
16 buses and trucks and stayed there for some time. Tell
17 us, please, how do you know that they were Arkan's
19 A. I've already explained that once. Everything
20 I learnt was through the media. I learnt nothing apart
21 from that.
22 Q. Does that refer to the Beli Orlovi as well?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you listened to the news via the media
25 and news about the Beli Orlovi and Arkan's troops, I
1 suppose you're talking about television, is that right,
2 television broadcasts?
3 A. Yes. No. Mostly the radio. Radio
4 broadcasts mostly, because we didn't always have --
5 Q. Did they describe what these troops looked
6 like? Did you see on television what they looked like?
7 A. No. No, I didn't.
8 Q. Well, the next part of my question relates to
9 what happened in Buk Bijela. You said that you saw
10 them coming in, the Arkan troops and the Beli Orlovi
11 members coming in by bus and truck. So this is no
12 longer a question of the media and information via the
13 media. This is something you actually saw, is it?
14 That is what I understand you to be saying, that you
15 personally saw them coming to the barracks at Buk
17 A. Yes. I saw that army come along the main
18 road and turn into Buk Bijela. I personally saw this
19 army, and that is what I talked about. Of course, I
20 didn't have any contacts with them. I didn't know if
21 they were the Beli Orlovi, White Eagles, or not, but
22 judging by what I heard on the media, I assumed that
23 they were.
24 Q. How far off were you when you were watching
25 all this?
1 A. Well, sometimes I was 50 metres away,
2 sometimes a 100, sometimes 200. It depended.
3 Q. Did you see their uniforms at all and their
4 insignia? You should have seen them if you were
5 standing 50 metres away.
6 A. Of course I did. Yes, of course you could
8 Q. In view of the fact that you said Arkan's
9 troops and the members of the Beli Orlovi kept
10 arriving, did they have any special insignia which
11 would differentiate them from the others, from the
12 other army?
13 A. Well, part of the army was dressed in
14 camouflage uniforms. The other part had sort of black
15 uniforms. Others had the olive-green/grey type of
16 uniform. Some carried a white or a red band around
17 their arms. That was what I could see.
18 Q. But you said you didn't hear a description of
19 the -- of Arkan's troops and the members of the Beli
20 Orlovi on television.
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. And my last group of questions: You said
23 that your village was on the right-hand side of the
24 local regional road.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know whether at the end of May and the
2 beginning of June, up to the end of June there were
3 several incidents on this regional road and that the
4 Serbs were victims of those incidents, or Serb
6 A. I think that at the end of June, by
7 Tjentiste, we heard that a group of people did fall
9 Q. Could you explain that to me, please? Tell
10 me what you heard exactly, in more precise terms.
11 A. That is that at the end of June, I don't know
12 the exact date, but we did hear that around the
13 Tjentiste region, a group of soldiers, a group of Serb
14 soldiers had come across a mine, and that's all I
16 Q. You say a mine. Do you know the number of
17 victims, how many people were killed and what type of
19 A. I don't know. Probably an anti-tank mine.
20 Q. Let me jog your memory. At the end of May
21 1992, did you happen to hear that in the Potok region
22 and a place called Suho -- do you know where that is,
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. That a passenger vehicle came across a Muslim
1 ambush and that there was an exchange of gunfire in
2 which two individuals were wounded?
3 A. No, I don't know that.
4 Q. Let me remind you. Do you happen to know
5 that in the incident that you say you heard about and
6 which you have described very sparsely, that
7 11 soldiers were killed and many of them were seriously
8 wounded and remain invalids to this day?
9 A. No. I don't know about that.
10 Q. Do you happen to know who placed those mines,
11 who planted those mines?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Have you ever heard of the 81st Foca Brigade?
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 Q. Where was the brigade stationed?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Were they perhaps responsible for the mining
18 of those regional roads?
19 A. I'm not aware of that.
20 Q. I see. You're not aware of that. After the
21 events of the 24th of April, when those six soldiers
22 turned up and surrendered their weapons, were you
23 mistreated after that in anyway or beaten perhaps by
24 certain individuals or was it all quiet in the
1 A. There was no mistreatment of any kind or
2 beating of any kind. There was just gunfire every
3 night or in the morning there would be shooting, but
4 there was no mistreatment of the population at all
5 until the 3rd of July.
6 Q. I know, but if there was shooting, as you
7 say, and sporadic gunfire here and there, and this
8 means that there were sort of merriment and people
9 would be firing weapons ad hoc, why were you so afraid
10 and why did you have to go to the wood? Because it's a
11 quite a long way from the road to the village.
12 A. Well, from the road -- actually, the village
13 goes down to the road, goes from the road upwards, and
14 of course we were afraid. We were afraid of an armed
15 army shooting around, because you could never be
16 certain whether they would shoot up in the air or shoot
17 in the village. You never knew what they intended to
18 do. I don't know who would feel safe sleeping in their
19 home with all this going on.
20 Q. Tell me, please: On the 3rd of July, on that
21 particular date, you say that many individuals were
22 taken towards Buk Bijela. Could you give us a number?
23 A. I think it was some 57 people.
24 Q. Do you know how many men?
25 A. Only one man, male.
1 Q. What about women?
2 A. The rest were women and children.
3 Q. I would be interested in knowing the age of
4 the women. Could you give us their age?
5 A. Well, there were women of -- their ages
6 ranged up to 60 years old.
7 Q. How many Muslims remained hidden in the
9 A. They weren't hiding. Well, yes, they were
10 hiding, but they withdrew that same day or the next day
11 towards the mountain. They went towards the mountain.
12 Q. Yes, you've said that, but I'm asking you how
13 many of them remained hidden in the woods. Give us a
14 number, please.
15 A. Well, I can't remember numbers, but I know
16 that 28 of them were killed and about 60 or so --
17 Q. Could you answer my question, please? I
18 didn't ask you how many people were killed but how many
19 people remained in hiding in the woods after the rest
20 were taken off to Buk Bijela. I think that my question
21 was quite clear.
22 A. Yes, but I don't remember the number. I
23 don't remember exactly how many.
24 Q. You can't remember. How can you remember
25 then how many people were taken off to Buk Bijela? How
1 do you remember that figure?
2 A. Well, I remember that because we looked for
3 them until we realised and learnt where they had been
5 Q. Well, that's not quite logical, because those
6 that were taken off to Buk Bijela were taken off, and
7 you were amongst those who were in hiding. So if you
8 were in hiding, you moved off in some direction, and it
9 would be logical that you do know how many of you were
10 hiding and how many of you met up later on to move
11 onwards rather than knowing how many were taken off.
12 A. We didn't count how many of us there were but
13 how many of us were missing.
14 Q. Right.
15 A. How many, if there weren't --
16 Q. You said that there were 28 dead. How many
17 living went on to Zelengora?
18 A. I don't know the number.
19 Q. In your particular group, how many people
20 were there?
21 A. In my group, there were 22 when we arrived at
23 Q. How many of them were male?
24 A. Six.
25 Q. What about the women?
1 A. The rest were women and children.
2 Q. You said that from this first spot you moved
3 to another spot in the wood, and you knew that there
4 were other Muslims hiding in that area.
5 A. No.
6 Q. How do you know that there was another hiding
7 place in the woods?
8 A. Well, there were several places in the
9 village. There were people in the village and it
10 was -- the people dispersed. So it wasn't just one
11 spot where the people hid. The men hid separately.
12 The women and children hid in other place.
13 Q. Why were the men separate?
14 A. Well, we assumed that if there was an attack
15 on the village, we didn't think they would kill the
16 women and children, whereas if the men were captured,
17 they would most certainly be killed, and that is why we
19 Q. To the best of your knowledge, how many
20 places like that were there where you hid? I'm
21 referring to your village and the surrounding area.
22 A. Six to eight.
23 Q. And my last question: Can you explain why
24 you moved towards the Zelengora Mountain and the small
25 summer houses there?
1 A. We thought that it was only possible to get
2 to the mountains, that it was impossible to go to the
3 other side.
4 Q. Did you have any information about the Muslim
5 military forces being stationed there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Well, it was said in the media.
8 A. No. But they didn't say it was military
9 units. The media said it was refugees from Sutjeska
10 that were in Treboje.
11 Q. Oh, refugees. I see.
12 MR. KOLESAR: Thank you. No further
14 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I would like to
15 continue on behalf of the defence of the co-accused,
16 Zoran Vukovic, to cross-examine this witness.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 Cross-examined by Ms. Lopicic:
19 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Good morning. On the 3rd of July, 1992, you
21 said in your statement that you fled to the woods with
22 other members of your family. Can I ask you: Who were
23 the members of your family? You don't have to mention
24 the names, just tell me how many members your family
25 had and give us their age.
1 A. I fled to the woods without my family. I
2 went with my wife's family; that is to say, my
3 mother-in-law, my father-in-law, a neighbour, his wife,
4 and two children.
5 Q. What about your own family? Your family
6 consists of?
7 A. My family consists of my wife and four
9 Q. What age do your wife and children -- are
11 A. You mean then or now?
12 Q. I mean --
13 A. From the age of 5 to the age of 17, and my
14 wife was 32 or something.
15 Q. How old were your daughters individually and
16 your sons at that time?
17 A. My older daughter was 16, and the other
18 daughter was 10, one son was 5 years old and the other
19 son was -- sorry. One son was 7 years old and the
20 other was 5 years old.
21 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge as to what
22 happened to the other members of your family in that
24 A. My family surrendered on the 5th, the 5th of
1 Q. I wanted to ask you: How did you know what
2 happened to your wife and your daughter?
3 A. I learned about this at Mount Igman from a
4 neighbour of ours, who told me that his sister and
5 another woman had already fled from Foca to the free
7 Q. When did you first talk about Buk Bijela to
8 your wife and your daughter?
9 A. In 1994, in September. I don't know the
10 exact date. But it was in September 1994.
11 Q. Did they tell you what happened then?
12 A. My wife did in part. My daughter continued
13 to hide this from me, because she cannot talk to her
14 father about things like that.
15 Q. So your wife told you and your daughter did
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did your wife tell you who was present there
19 in Buk Bijela?
20 A. I didn't quite understand.
21 Q. Did your wife tell you who was present
23 A. You mean out of the family members or the
24 other side?
25 Q. Out of the family members.
1 A. Out of the family members, there were 17 of
2 them who were present. I'm sorry, 15, because my
3 brother and relative were taken to the KP Dom. They
4 were not in Buk Bijela.
5 Q. What about Witness FWS-62?
6 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Since that is a
7 protected witness, could the usher please show the
8 witness this witness's real name, and then I will
9 proceed with my question.
10 Q. Do not mention the name, because this is a
11 protected witness?
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the witness is shown the
13 name, I'm wondering whether a protected witness can be
14 revealed to each other.
15 MS. LOPICIC: The protected witness is
16 Witness number 62.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: That's what I'm wondering
18 about, whether the name --
19 MS. LOPICIC: Yes. They're related. The
21 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a family member.
22 MS. LOPICIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: As it turns out, Your Honour,
25 the only way in which any of the evidence that we're
1 going to be eliciting from further witnesses is going
2 to make any sense to the Court at all is if the
3 witnesses are allowed to know the names of the other
4 witnesses but can only refer to them by number. In
5 other words, they already have in their minds what the
6 names are. What they don't know is the number. With
7 the next witness -- and I've already given my learned
8 friend a copy of the list of names and numbers that I
9 intend to show to our next witness -- it is going to be
10 a matter of a ruling from the Court that I was going to
11 ask, but it would make sense that if in their statement
12 they have referred to someone by name, then it would
13 make sense that we ask them to view that name, confirm
14 it is the person they're talking about, and refer to
15 the number corresponding.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: So under these circumstances,
18 unless the court has concerns about that, I would agree
19 that this is an appropriate way to work with it. I
20 can't think of any other way for the Court to find out
21 who the witnesses are talking about.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MR. RYNEVELD: If I might just add, the only
24 other thing I can think of is to go into closed
25 session, but I think in the interests of staying open,
1 this is the only way I can think of.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Actually, The Trial
3 Chamber agrees that each time a protected witness is --
4 has to be discussed by a witness, then the witness can
5 be shown the name. Only at that time, and when the
6 witness leaves, the name should be removed, because
7 it's the only way the witness will know whether that
8 person was together with them or not.
9 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, Your Honour. Let us
10 continue with the question.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Mr. Ryneveld,
12 from the witness's point of view, it's going to be very
13 confusing. When they want to refer to a name, they
14 will have some difficulty remembering the exact
15 number. Could there be some means by which you could
16 provide each witness with the names to whom they are
17 going to refer and the number beside it, simply while
18 they're in the box?
19 MR. RYNEVELD: That is exactly what we're
20 doing for each witness. For example, the next
21 witness -- I have a list of names and numbers of only
22 those witnesses to whom they will be referring. There
23 will be no extraneous names on their list. So as each
24 witness comes up, we will have a separate list with
25 numbers referred to.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
2 Please proceed, Counsel.
3 MS. LOPICIC: Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] As concerns Witness FWS-62,
5 who is a protected witness -- that is your
6 mother-in-law, actually -- did she tell you about Buk
8 A. What was your question? I didn't understand
10 Q. Did you talk to Witness FWS-62, who is a
11 protected witness? Did this witness tell you about Buk
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did Witness 62 tell you about Buk
15 Bijela? What happened to her?
16 A. She said that her husband was taken to one of
17 the rooms, interrogated, mistreated, and then taken
18 towards the Drina River, where he was shot, and he
19 never returned. They continued to interrogate her and
20 they took her gold jewellery away from her. They took
21 off her earrings, they took off her rings, they took
22 all the valuable jewellery she had.
23 Q. Who conducted this interrogation; do you know
25 A. At that time, she said it was Janko Janjic,
1 Tuta, who interrogated her husband.
2 Q. And what about Witness 62? Did somebody
3 interrogate her?
4 A. Yes, yes. Precisely Janko Janjic.
5 MS. LOPICIC: Since I shall be mentioning
6 Witness 51 and 52 now, can the usher place a list for
7 Witnesses 51 and 52, please. Could I just give a
8 little piece of paper, whatever my learned friend says.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: In keeping with the ruling of
10 the Court, I'm afraid she'd have to write those two
11 names on a piece of paper with the corresponding
12 number, because the list I have, of course, would have
13 additional names, because I wasn't going to give it to
14 this witness.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: So counsel in cross-examination
16 will always give individual lists.
17 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I have two papers,
18 for Witness FWS-51 and FWS-50. FWS-51 and FWS-50.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I perhaps be shown those
20 so I can confirm those are the names that we have as
22 MS. LOPICIC: Of course.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct. Thank you.
25 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Do you know the persons whose names are
2 mentioned there, 51 and 52 [sic]?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you related?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did Witnesses 51 and 52 [sic] tell you what
7 happened to them and how they surrendered?
8 A. I already said that my wife told me about it
9 in part, whereas my daughter did not say a thing to
10 me. They surrendered on the 5th because it was
11 impossible for them to get out anywhere else. They
12 went to our next-door neighbour's house and they said,
13 "We surrender."
14 Q. Did your wife tell you what happened in Buk
16 A. Yes, partly.
17 Q. Can you tell me?
18 A. That my daughter was taken away and raped.
19 Q. Did she tell you anything else?
20 A. Later she said that they were taken to Foca
21 and --
22 Q. Is my conclusion correct that there was
23 nothing else?
24 A. What was that?
25 Q. Is that what your wife told you then?
1 A. Yes, that's what she told me then.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel,
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, counsel.
5 MS. LOPICIC: Sorry.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know whether
7 Witnesses 51 and 52 [sic] were together?
8 A. Sometimes they were and sometimes they
9 weren't. It depended on when they would take any one
10 of them away.
11 Q. Can you perhaps tell us a bit more about
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Which witness are you asking
14 the witness about? Witness 51 and 52?
15 MS. LOPICIC: Witness 51 and 50, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: 51 and 50.
17 MS. LOPICIC: That's correct.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Because we keep getting "52" on
19 the transcript. So I was wondering, because the
20 witness in the box is Witness 52.
21 MS. LOPICIC: 50 and 51.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: So it should have been 51
23 and --
24 MS. LOPICIC: -- it's been called 51 and 52.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the transcript
1 shows: Do you know whether Witness 51 and 52, instead
2 of 50. Yes. The correction is made. Please
4 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did Witness 51 and 50 tell you something
7 A. Well, 51 told me about what happened further
8 in Foca.
9 Q. Did your wife tell you who raped her or beat
11 A. Who are you referring to? Which witness are
12 you referring to?
13 Q. I'm referring to 51 or 50. What do you know?
14 A. I know that Witness 51 was raped by Zoran
16 Q. I have one more question. When you testified
17 today at 10.28, 57 seconds, you said that Vukovic was
18 your neighbour, according to the transcript. Please,
19 could you identify, not only by last name, but also by
20 first name, which Vukovic is your neighbour, because
21 the transcript doesn't say so.
22 A. Jovan Vukovic. Jovan Vukovic was referred
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour. I don't have any
1 more questions for this witness.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. It's almost 11.00
3 for our break. Does the Prosecution intend to
5 MR. RYNEVELD: In light of that last little
6 exchange, might I just consult with my colleagues
7 before I decide whether or not it's necessary?
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, before I put one
12 final question in re-examination, it does arise totally
13 out of cross-examination, and it had to do with the
14 numbers as opposed to relationships. And I just want,
15 for the purpose of clarification, to make sure who he's
16 talking about was raped by Zoran Vukovic. Is he
17 talking about his daughter or his wife? That's the
18 question. Because I believe that the numbers might be
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that the only question you
22 MR. RYNEVELD: That's the only question I
23 have of this witness, and I want to have that
25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
1 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
2 Q. Sir, in response to questions put to you by
3 the Defence counsel just before she stopped, you were
4 asked to give evidence about who it was that you say
5 was raped by Zoran Vukovic. To whom are you referring
6 in terms of relationship? Was that your wife or your
8 A. My daughter.
9 Q. And to your understanding, your daughter's
10 number is what, the number that was assigned to your
12 A. 50.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are my questions. Thank
15 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, sorry. I just
16 have one additional question in connection with this
18 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. When you cross-examine
19 and then counsel re-examines, that's it; you don't have
20 another chance. It's examination-in-chief,
21 cross-examination, re-examination, and that's it.
22 So the Prosecution has completed their
23 re-examination. They had only one question. So the
24 witness can be released.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, thank you. And I note
1 the time, and because of the protected witnesses,
2 perhaps because this is time for the break we can get
3 the transfer. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So the Court will rise
5 until 11.30 hours.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good morning, Witness.
11 Will you please stand up and make the solemn
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
14 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
15 and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: WITNESS 62
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Will you please sit
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
22 Q. Now, Witness, the usher is going to show you
23 a piece of paper that has a name and a number written
24 on it. I do not want you to tell us what the name is.
25 Can you tell us whether the name on the piece of paper
1 that you are about to be shown is your name? Just say
2 yes or no. Would you look at the piece of paper,
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the witness be referred
6 to as Witness number 62 in these proceedings.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel may proceed.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
9 Q. Now, Witness, I understand that you were born
10 in the opstina of Gacko, and that's the municipality of
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You were married and had three children; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You and your husband and your children lived
17 in the village of Mjesaja. Is that correct as well?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. As I understand it, in this village, you and
20 your husband, prior to 1992, operated a general store;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes. That's right.
23 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you to turn
24 your mind to the 3rd of July of 1992. Did something
25 happen on the 3rd of July of 1992 that brought you to
1 court today? Tell us what happened.
2 A. We were attacked on the 3rd of July. We had
3 to hide in the woods. They found us in the woods, and
4 they took us off to Buk Bijela. They lined us up along
5 a wall, our faces turned towards the wall. I found 50
6 women and children there. We were all there. Then he
7 came, Zoran Vukovic. He took away my husband, and
8 Zoran Vilotic, in front of me. I don't know where they
9 took him off to.
10 My brother's daughter had her face all
11 bloody, ears cut off. They took him away to the Drina
12 River. They fired at him. She asked, "Why? What's
13 all this about?" They said, "Because he's an old
15 Q. All right. I'm going to stop you there, if I
16 may. I'm going to go back and ask you to give us some
17 of the details of what I have just told us. Okay?
18 Now, you say on the 3rd of July, 1992, your
19 village was attacked, and I think you used the word
20 "we" and you used the word "they."
21 A. Yes. That's right. Yes, yes.
22 Q. About what time of day was it that your
23 village was attacked?
24 A. About 6.00 in the morning.
25 Q. And where were you? Were you in your home at
1 the time?
2 A. No, in the woods.
3 Q. Why were you in the woods?
4 A. Because we were afraid.
5 Q. Of what?
6 A. We were afraid that they would kill us,
7 slaughter us, burn everything.
8 Q. What made you afraid that would happen?
9 A. Because we saw villages on fire, being set
10 fire to. We saw shooting going on like that.
11 Q. These villages, were they in the vicinity of
12 your own village?
13 A. Across the Drina River.
14 Q. You saw this happening before the 3rd of
15 July, 1992; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is. That's right.
17 Q. So you said you were in the woods. Why did
18 you go to the woods?
19 A. Well, we were afraid. We didn't dare sleep
20 in our homes.
21 Q. Who is "we"? And please don't give us names
22 now, but maybe you could describe if you went with
23 other people, what their relationships were. For
24 example, if it was neighbours, or friends, or family
25 members, you could describe those people in those terms
1 at this point.
2 A. Well, I took to the woods with my
3 daughter-in-law with her three children, with my
4 husband, with my brother's wife, and they found us
5 there in the woods.
6 Q. So you went with your husband?
7 A. Yes. Yes. They made my husband and myself
8 go to Buk Bijela.
9 Q. All right. And you say that your
10 daughter-in-law was with you as well, did you, or did I
11 misunderstand you?
12 A. Yes. My husband's -- that is to say, my
13 sister-in-law's daughter-in-law.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: All right. I think we've
15 reached a stage of the proceedings where I'm going to
16 ask the witness to be shown a list of names with
17 corresponding numbers, and with the Court's
18 permission -- and my friends are aware that this list
19 pertains to this witness's statement only -- and with
20 the Court's permission, if she could be shown the list
21 that the usher will show her, and if she could
22 indicate, opposite the name --
23 Q. Don't mention the name, just the number of
24 the person who was with you, if they were with you.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The usher can go ahead.
1 MR. RYNEVELD:
2 Q. Would you just slowly look at the list? I
3 understand that you read slowly. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Well, perhaps we could take it this way: You
6 say you went with your husband. His name or number is
7 not on this list, is he? Would you look at the list?
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.
9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
10 as we're all trying to protect the witnesses as much as
11 possible and not to have them identified, I think there
12 is a slight technical problem. I should like to draw
13 your attention to the fact that I can hear the witness
14 reading out the names on the list. Her microphone is
15 on. I don't know whether this is going out into the
16 public gallery. As we are taking such pains to ensure
17 witness protection, I wanted to draw your attention to
18 that fact and perhaps we could do something to prevent
19 this from happening.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
21 Mr. Ryneveld, I think when the witness is
22 reading to herself, the microphone should be off if
23 it's possible. I don't know about the technical
24 problems. Then when she raises her head, she's about
25 to speak, then the microphone should be switched on. I
1 think we shall need a lot of help from the usher.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you. I'm grateful
3 to my learned friend for having brought this to our
4 attention. I wonder whether arrangements can be made
5 now to redact that -- if she has been whispering to
6 herself and it's been audible, perhaps we ought to
7 ensure that if there is a delay in transmission, that
8 that be redacted now. I don't know how that's done,
9 but I want to get that on the record, if I may.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Might I continue
12 at this point?
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
15 Q. Again, don't tell us what the names are.
16 Have you reviewed the list of names?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I believe you told us that your
19 daughter-in-law was with you. Is that correct? Do you
20 see her name on this list? If so, do not tell us her
21 name. Can you give us her number?
22 A. Eighty-nine.
23 Q. Sorry. Is that -- there is no eighty-nine on
24 the list.
25 JUDGE HUNT: A hundred and eighty-nine.
1 MR. RYNEVELD:
2 Q. Is that 189?
3 A. Yes. I apologise. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Do you see the name of her daughter on the
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right. We're going to come back to this
8 in a moment, if we can. Now, tell us again who it was,
9 but don't give us names, who it was that went into the
10 woods the day that your village was attacked, by
11 relationship perhaps.
12 A. My sister-in-law's daughter -- my
13 sister-in-law, her son, and her daughter-in-law, her
14 two children, myself, and my husband.
15 Q. All right. While you were in the woods, what
16 happened? Could you see anything happening to your
18 A. In the morning, at about 6.00 a.m., I heard
19 shooting. I saw houses burning. I saw that something
20 was happening. Then we were in the woods for some
21 time, until they found us.
22 Q. Okay. How far away from your village were
23 you when you saw houses burning?
24 A. Well, I was quite far off. Half an hour
1 Q. How do you know houses were burning?
2 A. Because I saw smoke and flames.
3 Q. Do you know what happened to your house?
4 A. I saw that it was on fire.
5 Q. How far away were you from your house when
6 you saw that it was on fire?
7 A. Well, I told you about half an hour away. I
8 was in the woods, and I saw my house on fire.
9 Q. At any time did you come closer to your house
10 and see that it was on fire?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever see how your house started on
14 A. I didn't, no.
15 Q. Did you ever see people standing around your
17 A. Well, I didn't see them because I was far
18 off. I just saw smoke, flames, fog. You couldn't
19 see. You could just see that everything was ablaze.
20 Q. Now, you told us that you were in the woods
21 for some time when they came and found you. I believe
22 that's what you told us. How long were you in the
23 woods before you were apprehended?
24 A. We spent the night in the woods, until 6.00
25 in the morning.
1 Q. All right. Was that -- are we now talking
2 about the 3rd of July, on the 4th of July, or are we
3 talking about the time leading up to 6.00 in the
4 morning on the 3rd of July? I want to know what time
5 you're talking about. What I'd like to know is: After
6 your village was attacked, did you stay in the woods
7 that whole day and the following night?
8 A. The whole night and the next day, up to about
9 12.00, until they found us.
10 Q. And who is "they"?
11 A. The army. Until the army found us.
12 Q. How do you know it was an army? What did you
14 A. Because I saw -- they were wearing camouflage
15 uniforms, multicoloured, all sorts.
16 Q. How many were there?
17 A. Where do you mean? You mean when they took
18 us? Well, there were lots of them. Three, three of
19 them found us.
20 Q. When these people found you, were they
21 wearing uniforms?
22 A. Yes, they were. Yes, they did have uniforms.
23 Q. Did they have any weapons with them?
24 A. Yes, they did.
25 Q. Did you know any of these people that found
2 A. I just knew Zoran Vilotic.
3 Q. Zoran Vilotic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How did you know Zoran Vilotic?
6 A. Because he worked with my husband in the
7 Hidrogradnja firm in Buk Bijela.
8 Q. Do you know if he was a Serb or a Muslim or a
10 A. Well, I don't know. Of course we know what
11 he was, yes.
12 Q. What did you know him to be?
13 A. Well, a Serb, of course.
14 Q. You say there were three of them. What were
15 the other two wearing?
16 A. Yes. That's right. They were wearing the
17 same uniform, camouflage uniform.
18 Q. All right. Could you tell anything about
19 their uniforms? Were there any markings or armbands or
20 insignia on their sleeves, for example?
21 A. Yes. Around their arms they had something.
22 Q. Can you give us some detail of what the
23 something was?
24 A. Well, an armband, black like those Orlovi,
25 Eagles. I didn't actually look too carefully, but I
1 saw that.
2 Q. Some black armbands, did you say, on some
3 that looked like Eagles? Am I getting this correctly?
4 Please correct me if I'm wrong.
5 A. No. They had black armbands and white
7 Q. I see. Okay. Now, when these men, including
8 Zoran Vilotic, found you in the woods, what happened
10 A. Well, they took us to Buk Bijela.
11 Q. Was it these three men or were there other
12 people by this time?
13 A. In Buk Bijela, but those three men took us
14 off there.
15 Q. How did they do that?
16 A. Well, they just found us, took us over, and
17 made us go down to Buk Bijela. They didn't beat us.
18 They didn't do anything to us. They just made us go
19 there and lined us up by a wall near some barracks.
20 Q. How far was Buk Bijela away from the location
21 in the woods where you were found?
22 A. Well, about an hour away. About an hour.
23 Q. An hour's drive or an hour's walk?
24 A. No, by foot. On foot.
25 Q. Is that how you were taken to Buk Bijela, on
2 A. Yes. We walked there.
3 Q. Go slowly and tell us exactly who it was that
4 were taken with you to Buk Bijela. Let's recite them
5 by relationship. You went; is that correct?
6 A. There was myself, my husband, my
7 sister-in-law's son, his wife, and their two children.
8 Q. So by my count that's about six people, is
9 it? Am I correct?
10 A. Five.
11 Q. Five.
12 A. No, six. Six. That's right.
13 Q. Including yourself, that's six.
14 A. I'm sorry. Yes, including myself.
15 Q. And there were three soldiers who took you?
16 A. Yes. That's right.
17 Q. Now, did you know Buk Bijela prior to being
18 taken there? Was this a familiar spot for you?
19 A. Where we were you mean. Yes, it was. Yes,
20 of course. Yes, we did know it. Yes.
21 Q. Why, of course? How far away was it from
22 your village?
23 A. Well, it's not even half an hour away from my
24 house, from where I lived.
25 Q. Where did your husband work?
1 A. The Hidrogradnja Company.
2 Q. All right.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the witness now be shown
4 photograph Exhibit 11, please. In the photographs
5 provided to the Court, that's in the big bundle of
6 photographs. That would be number 11.
7 Perhaps this could be shown on the ELMO,
8 Mr. Usher. Is it on? There we are.
9 Q. Would you look at that photograph for us,
10 please? Do you see the photograph on the television
11 screen in front of you?
12 A. Yes, I can see it.
13 Q. Is that the location that you have been
14 referring to as Buk Bijela or do you recognise it?
15 A. I couldn't tell you. I really don't know,
16 because I've forgotten. It was a long time ago.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps the witness might be
18 actually shown the photograph itself before it's put on
19 the ELMO, just so she can have a close look at the
21 Q. There are two photographs. Can you see? Do
22 you need glasses? Thank you. Perhaps if you put the
23 glasses on, it may help.
24 A. Yes, I've got glasses, yes.
25 Q. You're nodding your head. What does that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Yes what?
4 A. I think that's Buk Bijela.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: I can't hear the
6 interpretation now.
7 A. I think that is Buk Bijela. I think that's
8 Buk Bijela.
9 Q. All right. And so the six of you were taken
10 to Buk Bijela; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And when you got there, did you see anyone
13 else there?
14 A. You mean of our people?
15 Q. Well, let's start with that, yes, please.
16 A. I found about 50 women and children there in
17 Buk Bijela. They were all lined up and they were taken
18 there before they took me there.
19 Q. So when you arrived, about 50 women and
20 children were already there when you and your group
21 arrived; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you see any soldiers in the area?
24 A. There were so many of them, I can't even
25 count all of them. There were quite a few of them. I
1 could not count, you know.
2 Q. All right. And were they in uniform?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What kinds of uniforms did you see?
5 A. Multicoloured, camouflage.
6 Q. Did they have weapons?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you see what kinds of weapons they had?
9 A. All kinds.
10 Q. Did you see different coloured uniforms?
11 A. Well, then, no. Most of them were
12 camouflage, multicoloured, all kinds.
13 Q. Did you see any armbands or insignia on the
14 soldiers you found at Buk Bijela?
15 A. I did see those bands, those black/white,
16 with the eagles. All kinds.
17 Q. All right. When you got there, you say that
18 the women were lined up against the wall. What
19 happened to you and your group?
20 A. They lined us up.
21 Q. Against the wall?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Along with the other 50 or so women and
24 children that were there ahead of you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What happened then?
2 A. My husband was there then, with me, in front
3 of me. Zoran Vukovic came. He took my husband and he
4 took him away, and I never saw him again, never heard
5 from him again.
6 Q. I'm going to stop you there. You say that
7 Zoran Vukovic took your husband away. Did you know --
8 A. Yes, from Buk Bijela.
9 Q. Did you know this Zoran Vukovic prior to
10 seeing him at Buk Bijela?
11 A. Naturally.
12 Q. How long had you known him and under what
14 A. I knew him. I knew him by sight. It wasn't
15 that I had any contact with him; I knew him by sight.
16 Q. And how long had you known him?
17 A. Well, I don't know. I knew him. I'd see him
18 in town sometimes for a couple of years. I didn't see
19 much of him, but I knew him by sight.
20 Q. And when you went to Buk Bijela, did you
21 recognise this man?
22 A. I saw when he took my husband away from me.
23 Q. This Zoran Vukovic that took your husband
24 away from you, can you describe to us, for example,
25 what he looked like at that time? Do you know about
1 how old he was?
2 A. Well, how could I know? He was wearing a
3 camouflage uniform. At any rate, I recognised him; I
4 knew him by sight. I knew it was him, but I can't
5 describe his age. When he's dressed in these
6 camouflage clothes, how can I tell?
7 Q. Are you able to tell us whether he was a big
8 man or medium-built man or a small man, or anything
9 like that?
10 A. Medium-built man. Medium-built man. Like
11 that, sort of. Well, not too fat, not too skinny;
13 Q. Do you remember approximately what colour
14 hair he had?
15 A. Well, how can I tell? He had a cap then.
16 How can I describe it to you when he wore a cap?
17 Q. At the time that he took your husband away,
18 did you have any difficulty recognising this man as
19 Zoran Vukovic?
20 A. Well, it was hard for me when I didn't dare
21 look, when I saw him take my husband away. Of course
22 it was hard for me. I never saw my husband again,
23 never heard from him again.
24 Q. Do you think you would recognise this Zoran
25 Vukovic again if you were to see him?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You would not recognise him if you were to
3 see him again?
4 A. No. No. No. Quite a bit of time has gone
5 by. Quite a bit of time has gone by. People change.
6 I don't know.
7 Q. I'm going to ask you to look around the
8 courtroom today and see whether the person who took
9 your husband away, that you have described to us as
10 Zoran Vukovic, is in the courtroom today, or whether
11 you can tell. Would you please just slowly look around
12 the courtroom today.
13 A. No.
14 Q. You don't recognise anyone today?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, of the group of 50-some-odd women and
17 children who were there ahead of you, did you -- again,
18 don't tell us any names -- did you recognise anyone
19 else among the people who were already at Buk Bijela?
20 A. There was no one there but my husband.
21 Q. Your husband came with you, did he not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Of the women and children who had already
24 arrived at Buk Bijela before you -- do you understand
25 what I'm asking you? -- the people that were already
1 there, did you recognise any of those people?
2 A. You mean the women and children?
3 Q. That's correct.
4 A. Yes. All of them were my neighbours.
5 Q. All right. At some point did one of those
6 neighbours tell you something about what had happened
7 to your husband? Don't give us the name yet, please --
8 or don't give us the name at all.
9 A. Yes. 75.
10 Q. Number 75? All right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And was number 75 already at the camp before
13 you arrived? And by "camp," I'm talking about Buk
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you said that a Zoran Vukovic took your
17 husband away. Did you see what happened to number 75?
18 A. She was there before my husband. When she
19 was getting out of the room, she came across my
20 husband. His face was bloody. His ears were cut off.
21 They forced him to the Drina River. They shot him.
22 And she said, "Why are you doing that?" and they said,
23 "Because he's an old man."
24 Q. So number 75 told you about seeing your
25 husband; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. Did she tell you where she had seen this
3 happen to your husband?
4 A. She was getting out of one room and he was
5 getting out of another room.
6 Q. Did she tell you what had happened to her
7 while she was in one of those rooms?
8 A. Well, she was raped; that's what happened.
9 Q. And you know that because she told you that?
10 A. Of course.
11 Q. Did she tell you about seeing your husband
12 with his ears cut off?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did she tell you that she had seen what had
15 happened to him at the river?
16 A. They forced him to the Drina and they shot
18 Q. Now, I believe you've told us that she told
19 you then in response to her question, "Why did you do
20 this?" or words to that effect, her answer was,
21 "Because he's an old man"; is that correct?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Immediately after this incident, did anyone
24 speak to you in reference to an old man?
25 A. No. No. She's the only one who told me
2 Q. She's the only one that told you that. All
3 right. Now, --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- I want to bring you to a point where you
6 are still up against the wall. Did one of the soldiers
7 approach you?
8 A. Tuta walked up. That was his nickname. And
9 he said, "Who is this old man's wife?" I said, "It's
10 me." He took me there to that house, to the same room
11 where my husband had been. I looked. There was a bed,
12 a divan, something like that. I looked at the wall.
13 There was blood. My husband's things were there: his
14 cap, his passport, his other things. I did not dare
15 say that this belonged to my husband, nor did I take
16 these things.
17 He started searching me all over my body. He
18 took my earrings off my ears. He took my wedding ring,
19 the one I got from my husband. He took it from my
20 finger. He asked me about my relatives -- I don't know
21 -- all about that. He didn't beat me. He didn't rape
22 me. I answered to him, "I don't know." He searched me
23 and then he said, "Grandmother, you can go." He gave
24 me a cigarette. He lit it for me. I said, "How am I
25 going to get through?" And he said, "Okay, I'll see
1 you off."
2 I went back there. They returned me to where
3 the women had been lined up. There were lots of these
4 military men there. He called out to them. There was
5 one who had a long beard, who had a walkie-talkie. He
6 called for a bus. They forced us onto this bus.
7 Q. That's fine. We're going to continue the
8 story, but I want to back up a little bit and get some
9 more details, if I can. Okay?
10 A. Go ahead.
11 Q. Now, you said that a man called Tuta, or by
12 nickname of Tuta asked you --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- who was the wife of the soldier [sic].
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were there any other old men other than your
17 husband in the group of people you were with?
18 A. Only my husband. My husband was the only one
19 who was there with me. That's it.
20 Q. Is that why you knew that he was referring to
21 you when he asked for the wife of the old man?
22 A. Naturally.
23 Q. And this Tuta, was there anything unique or
24 unusual about him? Was there something about his
25 appearance that was unusual?
1 A. He had tattoos all over. He was short,
2 dark. He had all kinds of things all over. He had
3 rifles, he had grenades, he had knives. He had all
4 sorts of things.
5 Q. Did you see what kind of uniform or insignia
6 may have been on his sleeves?
7 A. He had a camouflage uniform. I did not see
8 any insignia.
9 Q. And this room he took you to, you say there
10 was blood on the walls; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you recognised your husband's
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you have any money?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What happened to your money?
18 A. Tuta took it away from me.
19 Q. He also took the items you've listed before.
20 I believe you said your wedding ring and your earrings;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Did you ever get any of those items back?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, after you were searched and your
1 possessions were taken away from you, you were brought
2 back to the group of women and children outside?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What happened once you returned to the group
5 of women and children?
6 A. Then we were forced to the bus. We were
7 loaded into the bus. We were driven to Foca. We
8 arrived before the SUP building. There were about 30
9 or 40 of them in the bus with us. We all arrived in
10 front of the SUP. We stood in front of the SUP perhaps
11 for an hour. They went out, they came back. They
12 didn't let us get off. Then they took us to the high
13 school centre where children went to school.
14 Q. All right. We'll stop there. Now, about
15 what time of day was it that the buses arrived?
16 A. Well, I don't know. Around noon maybe or
17 1.00 or 2.00. I could not say for sure what time it
18 was, but quite a bit of time had gone by since the
20 Q. Were all the women and children that were
21 assembled at the wall, were they all loaded into the
23 A. All of us. All of us.
24 Q. A number of soldiers got on as well. Is that
25 what you said?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. What would you say the range of ages of the
3 people that were being transported were? How old was
4 the oldest and how young was the youngest of the group
5 of women and children that were on the bus with you?
6 A. There were no men, there were only us women
7 and children.
8 Q. I understand that. How old would you say the
9 oldest woman was?
10 A. Well, I think around 50. It was a
11 50-year-old woman who had been wounded in the arm. Her
12 wound was bleeding, of course. She was the oldest
13 among all of us women.
14 Q. Were there any -- how old were the children?
15 Were there any babies?
16 A. There was a 2-year-old baby.
17 Q. You say you were driven to town. Is the town
18 you're referring to Foca?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you say that the bus stopped at the SUP.
21 Is that the local police administration building?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Did any policeman come to the bus at all?
24 A. No.
25 Q. The Zoran Vukovic and the Zoran Vilotic that
1 you referred to earlier, did they come along on the bus
2 as well or did they stay behind?
3 A. I did not see them come but then maybe they
4 did. I don't know.
5 Q. From the SUP building, you were taken where?
6 A. To the high school building.
7 Q. Is that the Foca High School?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. And what happened when you got there?
10 A. Well, we stopped there. Then we got off the
11 bus. Then we were taken to this big hall, this big
12 room where they put us. We were there. They came and
13 they took women away. I don't know. All sorts of
15 Q. How long were you kept at the Foca High
17 A. I think about ten days. I think we were
18 there for about ten days.
19 Q. Were all of you in one room or in different
21 A. All of us were in a big room, a big hall.
22 Q. What kind of -- was there a lot of room left
23 over once everybody was in this hallway or was it
25 A. Well, it wasn't too crowded.
1 Q. Did you have to sleep in that hallway as
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did all the women and children sleep in that
5 same hallway room?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you able to tell us what happened during
8 the nights that you were there, in relation to some of
9 the other people who were in the room with you?
10 A. There were no men there with us. The men
11 were only in Partizan.
12 Q. I understand that. What happened to the
13 women, if anything?
14 A. Well, the women were taken out. Some were
15 taken out, brought back. Well, what happened to
16 them ...
17 Q. Yes. Who took them out?
18 A. Well, those military men.
19 Q. So there were military men guarding the
20 detainees in the Foca High School? You've told us
21 there were only women, you see. So now there are men.
22 What kind of men?
23 A. Are you talking about the high school? No.
24 No, no, no, no, no. Not a single man was in the high
1 Q. All right. But I think you've just told us
2 that the women were taken out. Do you understand what
3 I'm saying?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who took them out?
6 A. Everyone knows who.
7 Q. But I'm asking you to tell us.
8 A. Well, these Chetniks, the ones who brought us
9 there. They'd barge in during the night. They'd take
10 them out, bring them back.
11 Q. And these Chetniks that came during the
12 night, were those men?
13 A. Of course they were.
14 Q. Thank you. Were they in uniform?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did they have weapons?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did they control the behaviour of the women
19 and children in the Foca High School?
20 A. Well, it depends.
21 Q. Tell us what you -- tell us what happened, if
22 you would, please, to the women that you could see.
23 How were they taken out and how were they brought
25 A. Well, they were taken away in a normal
1 condition, and they came back reduced to a terrible
2 state. That's what it was like.
3 Q. Thank you. What did you see about these
4 women when they returned that led you to describe them
5 as "in a terrible state"? Give us some details about
6 what you saw about them that drives you to the
7 conclusion that they were in a terrible state.
8 A. Well, they were all black and blue, beaten
10 Q. Did any of these women ever tell you what
11 happened to them while they were taken out of the
13 A. Yes, the one under number 95.
14 Q. And what did number 95 tell you?
15 A. Well, she told me. She told me they put out
16 their cigarettes from here [indicates] right down to
17 her hand.
18 Q. Did you ever look at her arms?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. What did you see?
21 A. Of course I did, all the wounds. How
22 wouldn't you? You couldn't miss burns from cigarette
23 butts that had been put out all over the body.
24 Q. And you personally saw these cigarette burn
1 A. Of course I did. Naturally, yes.
2 Q. Many of my questions may seem stupid, but
3 there is a reason for asking them. Okay?
4 A. Well, go ahead and ask.
5 Q. Now, in response to my question about what
6 95 told you, did she tell you anything else about what
7 happened to her other than being burned by cigarettes?
8 A. Well, yes, she did, of course. She told me
9 she was raped, that they put their cigarettes out all
10 over her from the neck down to her hand, all over her
11 arms. That's what she told me.
12 Q. Did she tell you who did that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. From what you could see, was -- do I
15 understand correctly you were at Foca High School for
16 about ten days? Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you tell whether number 95 was removed
19 more than once from the facility by these Chetniks?
20 A. Well, they didn't take them out much from
22 Q. Did you see number 95 being taken out?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How often?
25 A. Well, during the night once or twice,
1 depending on the night.
2 Q. Would that be once or twice a night or just
3 once or twice over a ten-day period?
4 A. During the night. During the night.
5 Q. I understand that, that she was taken out
6 during the night. Are you telling us, just for
7 clarification, that she was taken out once or twice
8 every night or once or twice during the night during
9 the whole period of ten days?
10 A. Every night. Once or twice at least every
11 night they would take her off.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm going to ask you to look
13 at that list of names and numbers that you were
14 provided with by the usher. Do you see that list in
15 front of you?
16 A. Yes, I can see it.
17 Q. Being very careful not to give us any names,
18 but look at the names and tell us whether you --
19 whether any of the other people whose names are on this
20 list were with you at Foca High School and then, if so,
21 give us the number, please.
22 Let's take the first line. Do you see the
23 first name on that list? Do you see the first name?
24 A. I see it.
25 Q. It has a number 75. Was number 75 in the
1 room with you at the Foca High School?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Going down to the next name. Do you
4 recognise the name of the next person?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that is number 50? You're nodding your
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us -- don't tell us the name.
10 Can you tell us what relationship, if any, that you had
11 with number 50?
12 A. That's my daughter.
13 Q. That's your daughter.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was she there with you in the Foca High
17 A. Yes, she was.
18 Q. How about the next name under the number 51?
19 Do you know that person?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Is she related to you?
22 A. You mean number 51?
23 Q. That is correct.
24 A. Yes. My daughter.
25 Q. I'm sorry. Let's just get this clear. Look
1 at 50 and 51, those two names, if you would, please.
2 Which one of those is your daughter?
3 A. Number 50 is my granddaughter. Number 51 is
4 my daughter.
5 Q. All right. Thank you.
6 A. You're welcome.
7 Q. So number 50 is your granddaughter. That
8 would be your daughter's daughter; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And number 51 is your daughter?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were both those people, 50 and 51, that is,
13 your granddaughter and daughter, with you in this room
14 at Foca High School?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You've already told us about number 95; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That's the lady that you indicated was taken
20 out a number of times and showed you the cigarette
21 burns; correct?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Look at the next name corresponding number
24 48. Do you recognise that name?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Do you know whether that person was in the
2 room with you at Foca High School?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let's just go through the list, please. One
5 eighty-nine. Do you recognise that individual by
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Was she in the room with you at Foca High
10 A. Yes, she was.
11 Q. The next person has initials, "DB." Do you
12 know whether that person was with you at Foca High
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Number 87. What can you tell us about her?
16 Well, maybe I should rephrase that.
17 A. She was there too.
18 Q. Thank you. Ninety-one?
19 A. Yes, she was.
20 Q. Ninety-six?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And 53?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I take it that there were a number of other
25 women and children there as well, other than these
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Mr. Usher.
4 Q. Very briefly: The conditions in this room at
5 Foca High School, were there washing facilities?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were there toilet facilities?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were there beds?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were there blankets or cushions?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How would you sleep?
14 A. Well, on the floor.
15 Q. Were you fed?
16 A. Once in three days.
17 Q. Was there enough food when it was brought?
18 A. Well, no. We'd give it to the children, and
19 there wasn't much for us.
20 Q. Now, while you were at the Foca High School,
21 was it just soldiers in uniform that were guarding
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you see any policemen?
25 A. Not there we didn't, no.
1 Q. Were you able to distinguish between police
2 and soldiers by what they were wearing?
3 A. Well, we didn't go out anywhere, nor did we
4 know anyone.
5 Q. Were you allowed to -- let me ask these
6 questions first. This room, this hallway, were there
7 any windows in it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you allowed to look out of those
11 A. No.
12 Q. How were you prevented from doing so?
13 A. Well, they ordered us not to, that we weren't
14 allowed to.
15 Q. Do you know what policemen's uniforms looked
16 like, what colour they were?
17 A. Blue.
18 Q. Did you see any blue uniforms while you were
19 in the Foca High School?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, in addition to the original group of
22 people that were brought into your room, were others
23 brought to the high school after you first got there?
24 Do you understand my question?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Let me rephrase it, then. Initially there
2 was a bus load of women and children brought to the
3 Foca High School. You've told us about that; correct?
4 At some later time did some additional women and
5 children arrive to join you in your room at the Foca
6 High School?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you know any of the people that were
9 brought in that second group? Again, don't give us
10 names, but you can give us relationships or numbers, if
11 you know them. You have a sheet. Who was in that
12 second group; do you know?
13 A. No, I didn't know anybody in the group.
14 Q. Let me ask you this question. Were your
15 granddaughter, number 50, and your daughter, number 51,
16 were they in the original group at Buk Bijela?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were they in the group that was taken on the
19 bus from Buk Bijela to Foca High School?
20 A. Not in the first group. They were in the
21 second group.
22 Q. So your daughter and your granddaughter were
23 among the people that arrived at the Foca High School
24 in the second group?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How long after your arrival at Foca High
2 School did your granddaughter and your daughter, number
3 50 and 51, arrive?
4 A. Four days later.
5 Q. Four days after your arrival; correct?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Now, when your daughter arrived, did you have
8 a chance to speak to her in the Foca High School?
9 A. Well, I talked to her. She didn't tell me
10 anything. She said that they mistreated her.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: I can't hear the translation
13 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English
14 now? Can you hear the English?
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I can hear it, but I'm
16 going to turn up the volume.
17 Q. Let me ask that question again, because I'm
18 not sure I heard your answer. So if I may, I'll ask
19 the question a second time.
20 When you spoke to your daughter and your
21 granddaughter when they arrived, did they -- did you
22 have an opportunity to speak to them about what had
23 occurred to them while the two of you were separated?
24 A. Well, what happened to them in Buk Bijela, my
25 granddaughter was raped, mistreated. She told me
1 that. And that's it. Then they picked them all up and
2 brought them to the secondary school building.
3 Q. Did your daughter tell you what had happened
4 to her?
5 A. Well, they did the same to her.
6 Q. And your daughter told you that?
7 MR. RYNEVELD: I didn't hear a response.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness answer the
9 question, please.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: I'll repeat it.
11 Q. Did your daughter tell you that she was raped
12 as well? I know this is difficult.
13 A. Yes, she did. Yes.
14 Q. I'm sorry. I realise this is difficult, but
15 I have to ask the questions.
16 Now, you've told us that you stayed at Foca
17 High School for about ten nights; is that correct? Do
18 you need a moment?
19 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. How did you leave Foca High School?
21 A. They came with a truck with a canvas covering
22 and they made us get into the truck. They loaded us
23 up, covered us with a tarpaulin, just like you would
24 animals, and took us to the Partizan building.
25 Q. This Partizan building, were you familiar
1 with it prior to being taken there?
2 A. Yes, yes. I knew it was a big sports hall.
3 Q. I see. And do you know where it's located in
4 relation to the police station, the SUP? Is it close
5 to it or far away from it, or do you know?
6 A. Up above the SUP building.
7 Q. So it's very close to it, just above?
8 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Where in the Partizan Sports Hall were you
11 A. Well, they brought us to the Partizan and
12 there was a big sports hall there where sports were
13 played. They took us in there --
14 Q. Go ahead. Is that like a gymnasium or --
15 this sports hall that you're talking about, --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- was that like a wooden floor?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I see.
20 A. Yes, that's right. And there was glass up to
21 our calves, so we had to clear it up. And we were
22 there ...
23 Q. How many women and children were taken to the
24 Partizan Sports Hall; do you know?
25 A. Well, I couldn't give you the exact number,
1 but they took us all there, all of us who were there,
2 and then took us off to the Partizan Hall. I couldn't
3 count them all up for you. I don't know.
4 Q. Let me ask you this question. All of the
5 people that were in the first group that went from Buk
6 Bijela to Foca, did they all get transported to
8 A. Yes, they did.
9 Q. The people in the second group, including
10 your granddaughter and your daughter, did they also
11 come to Partizan Sports Hall?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were there other women and/or children there
14 before you arrived, that is, at Partizan Sports Hall?
15 A. No.
16 Q. After your arrival, did further women and
17 children arrive there?
18 A. Yes. Three women and three old men were
20 Q. All right. Now, in this gymnasium were there
21 washing conditions -- were there washing facilities,
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were there cooking facilities?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Were there toilet facilities?
2 A. Yes, there were.
3 Q. How did you sleep?
4 A. On the floor on gym mats.
5 Q. Were there enough gym mats to go around for
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were there any blankets?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Any cushions or anything else?
11 A. No.
12 Q. While you were -- I'm sorry. And were you
13 fed adequately?
14 A. Well, yes. In three days they would bring a
15 little something.
16 Q. They would bring a little something every
17 day, or once in three days, or -- I'm sorry, you'll
18 have to clarify that for me.
19 A. Once in three days there would be something
20 in a jar, some sort of water, dish water in a jar, that
21 kind of thing. We would give it to the children. Some
23 Q. All right. Now, you've talked about some old
24 men being brought, or some men being brought subsequent
25 to your arrival at Partizan; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see what happened to those men?
3 A. I saw them beat up an old man with their
4 boots. They beat him with their boots. Then they took
5 a knife and cut his face from the hairline down across
6 the face, right down. That man was there. And then he
7 went to Montenegro later on when we left. He survived.
8 Q. Who did that to him? You said "they." I'm
9 trying to find --
10 A. Well, we know who did it.
11 Q. Yes, but we need you to tell us. Would you
12 tell us if it was women and children that did it, or
13 was it soldiers that did it, or policemen? You can't
14 just say "they"; you have to tell us so that we know.
15 A. Well, the soldiers, of course. Not women,
16 not women. It was the soldiers, the soldiers that
17 mistreated us.
18 Q. I told you some of my questions would sound
20 So the soldiers did it. Can you tell us
21 whether it was one man or two men or a number of men?
22 A. There was lots of them. I couldn't even
23 count them on the fingers of my hand. Five or six,
24 when they stormed the room, they beat him up. He was
25 an old man and he just crouched down on the floor. He
1 couldn't do anything. But he survived, you see.
2 Q. Could you see any reason why he was being
3 beaten, or did they give a reason why they were doing
4 it in your presence?
5 A. Nothing. They just came in. He was in a
6 corner. They started beating him. What could he do,
7 poor thing.
8 Q. I'm going to take you to a time period while
9 you had been at the Partizan Sports Hall for a number
10 of days. I understand that -- let me rephrase that.
11 You've told us about the sleeping arrangements, that
12 there were some gym mats, but there were not enough
13 mats to go around; is that right?
14 A. That's right, yes.
15 Q. Was there any privacy in your sleeping
16 arrangements, or would you sleep next to other people?
17 A. One next to the other; like, we were all
18 pressed together, as they say, pressed up against each
20 Q. While you were sleeping in that type of
21 arrangement, one next to another, did something happen
22 in the middle of the night that is one of the reasons
23 why you're here today, to tell us about that?
24 A. Well, yes, it did.
25 Q. What was that?
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I'm sorry, I'm going to
2 have to give the witness --
3 A. Well, what happened was --
4 Q. Just stop for a moment.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Unfortunately, the incident
6 that, I think, this witness is going to tell us about
7 does not have a corresponding number, so there is no
8 way I can -- I'm going to have to rephrase my
10 Q. Don't tell us any names, but was there a lady
11 there who had a 10-year-old son?
12 A. She's not here.
13 Q. She's not on the list, no.
14 A. No.
15 Q. So there was a woman, other than the people
16 whose names are on this list, who had a 10-year-old
17 son; is that correct? You're nodding your head.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where did she sleep in relation to where you
21 A. She slept next to me, next to her child.
22 Q. Did something happen in relation to that lady
23 during the middle of the night while you were at
24 Partizan Sports Hall?
25 A. Three men came in in the dark, in the middle
1 of the night, and they took her in front of her child
2 and myself. They made her take off her underclothes,
3 underwear, and she asked them not to have to do that.
4 He tore her clothes off her, then he continued to rape
5 her -- proceeded to rape her. She cried out, "Please
6 don't. Please don't," but he lifted up her legs. This
7 went on for an hour. She cried. She cried out for
8 help. She entreated him. She said, "Please don't.
9 Please don't. I'm a grandmother." When he had
10 finished what he was doing, he got up, pulled up his
11 trousers, and left.
12 It was dark. I didn't have a lamp to see
13 exactly what the time was, but it was night-time.
14 Q. You say some three men. Now, please correct
15 me if I'm wrong. Did I understand you correctly that
16 three men came in, or did I misunderstand you?
17 A. Three. Yes, three men.
18 Q. And one of those men raped this woman right
19 next to you; is that correct?
20 A. Yes. That's correct.
21 Q. Where was her 10-year-old son at the time she
22 was being raped by this person?
23 A. He was lying down on the floor.
24 Q. How close to his mother?
25 A. We were lying next to each other. There was
1 just a little way, right next to her. He was sleeping.
2 Q. You say this incident went on for about an
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was that the only time you saw men come in in
6 the middle of the night to where the women were
7 sleeping at Partizan?
8 A. That was the only case for me to see this
9 happen amongst us, for them to do it in front of us.
10 Q. I understand that. That's the only time that
11 you were actually physically present while a woman was
12 being raped in the Sports Hall; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. While you were there, did you ever see
15 soldiers come and take women away and bring them back?
16 A. Naturally I did, yes.
17 Q. Was that a common occurrence?
18 A. Regularly.
19 Q. Did that happen -- how frequently would that
20 have happened while you were at Partizan Sports Hall?
21 I know you say regularly, but what kind of frequency?
22 A. Well, every night, in the course of the
23 night. The main thing is that it was regular. This
24 happened regularly.
25 Q. And was it always soldiers that did that?
1 A. Always.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, the lunch break.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Thank
4 you. This would be a good time.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall rise for lunch break,
6 and we shall resume our proceedings at 1430 hours.
7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll continue with your
3 examination-in-chief, counsel.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Now, Witness, just before the lunch break we
6 were talking about what was going on at the Partizan,
7 and --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I believe that you have told us that you used
10 the word "Chetnik," was the word you used. What do you
11 mean by the word "Chetnik"?
12 A. Well, because they beat us. They persecuted
13 us, mistreated us, did what they wanted.
14 Q. All right. Are you referring to any
15 particular ethnicity when you say "Chetnik"?
16 A. Well, what can I say? What can I tell you?
17 I don't know. We -- people were killed, died;
18 everything was burnt, everything.
19 Q. All right. Let me ask the question this
20 way. These people that were taking the women from
21 Partizan, could you tell -- you've told us they were
22 Chetniks. Were they soldiers or were they civilians?
23 A. Soldiers.
24 Q. Could you tell whether or not they were
25 Serbian or Muslim or Croat soldiers?
1 A. Serb, of course.
2 Q. And when you use the word "Chetnik," what
3 specifically are you referring to?
4 A. Serb.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know a Dragan
7 A. I do.
8 Q. And do you know what his occupation was at
9 that time?
10 A. SUP, S-U-P.
11 Q. And by "SUP, S-U-P," is that the name you
12 give to policemen?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you see this individual in the vicinity
15 of Partizan Sports Hall during the time that you were
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And how was he dressed?
19 A. In a police uniform.
20 Q. How, if at all, does that differ from a
21 soldier's uniform?
22 A. Because the police wear blue uniforms, of
23 course, so that was obvious.
24 Q. And did you see policemen wearing blue
25 uniforms during your stay at the Partizan Sports Hall?
1 A. I only saw him.
2 Q. And when you saw him, what, if anything, was
3 he doing?
4 A. I saw him in front of Partizan, standing out
5 there in front. He did not go into Partizan, but what
6 he was doing in front, I don't know.
7 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with number
8 48? Look at your list, please. Oh, sorry. You don't
9 have the list. Just wait a minute, please.
10 First of all, you've told us you know a
11 number 48; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I do.
13 Q. Did number 48 ever have a conversation with
14 you with respect to what happened to her in relation to
15 this police officer?
16 A. She said that he took her somewhere. Where
17 he took her, I have no idea.
18 Q. Did she tell you what he did when he took her
20 A. Well, probably one knows what he did to her.
21 He raped her.
22 Q. She told you that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, during the time that you were at
25 Partizan Sports Hall -- again, look at your list,
1 please -- do you know what happened to number 87,
2 number 75, and the person referred to by the initials
4 A. These persons were taken to Miljevina.
5 Q. And where is that?
6 A. Over there, beyond Foca. I don't know, to
7 tell you the truth. Its name was Miljevina. I never
8 went there, no.
9 Q. How do you know they were taken to Miljevina?
10 A. I know they were taken away and they were not
11 there for eight months.
12 Q. You were not there at Partizan for eight
13 months; is that what you're saying?
14 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, Partizan,
16 Q. Did you ever speak to any of these
17 individuals, those three people, 75, 87, or DB, after
18 they were taken away from Partizan? In other words,
19 you told us -- go ahead.
20 A. No. No. I never saw them again.
21 Q. Who on -- okay. Do you see number 75 on your
23 A. I see it.
24 Q. Did you speak to her after that?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Did she tell you what happened to her and the
2 other two?
3 A. Well, what happened to her, they took her
4 away. They sold her. They raped her. They did all
5 sorts of terrible things to her. And as for the other
6 two, she didn't say anything.
7 Q. Did she tell you whether or not she was with
8 the other two when all these terrible things happened
9 to her?
10 A. She didn't tell me anything. She told me
11 that she was there and those two, and then they
12 separated them. I don't know where the other two
13 went. She remained.
14 Q. How long were you kept at the Partizan Sports
16 A. A month and a half. Altogether, I mean.
17 Q. What happened to you then?
18 A. Then they let us go. They gave us permits
19 and said we could go to Montenegro.
20 Q. After a month and a half of being kept
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you free to leave at any time while you
24 were being kept there?
25 A. No. No. No. We didn't go anywhere from
1 Partizan. We'd only go out there in front of the door
2 but not beyond that.
3 Q. Did you feel as if you were allowed to go
4 while you were there? Were you given permission to
6 A. No.
7 Q. How about earlier at the Foca High School?
8 Were you free to leave that facility while you were
10 A. No.
11 Q. What stopped you from leaving?
12 A. The guards wouldn't let us. We had guards.
13 Q. How were these guards dressed?
14 A. In these blue, olive-green or, rather, these
15 olive-green coloured clothes.
16 Q. When you say "olive-green coloured clothes,"
17 did you think that those were uniforms? Were they all
18 similar uniforms, these guard uniforms? This guard
19 clothing. I'm sorry.
20 A. Yes, they were military uniforms.
21 Q. Did you see any armbands or insignia on
23 A. No. No.
24 Q. Now, I just want to ask a couple of other
25 questions that I didn't ask you during the course of my
1 examination earlier. I want to take you back to the
2 Foca High School for a moment. You told us that a
3 witness -- I'm sorry, a number 95 was taken out. You
4 told us about that. Would you look at your list and
5 look at the name or number 95? Do you see her number?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember telling us before lunch --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- about that person being taken out by
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. While you were at the Foca High School, did
13 you see any other women being taken out?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How frequently?
16 A. No. No. She was taken out. Perhaps they
17 were taken out, but then I didn't see that.
18 Q. The incident you told us about, about an old
19 man being beaten -- remember, you told us that five or
20 six soldiers beat an old man? Do you remember telling
21 us about that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you recall where that occurred? Was that
24 at Partizan or was that at Foca High School? I forgot
25 to ask you where that occurred.
1 A. At Partizan.
2 Q. Okay. Did you recognise any of the soldiers
3 that took these women out either at the Foca High
4 School or at Partizan?
5 A. No. No.
6 Q. Were they always in uniform?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you able to tell us whether they were
9 Serbs or Muslims or are you able to say?
10 A. I can't really tell you. They did not
11 introduce themselves or anything. I think it is well
12 known who they were though.
13 Q. Did you see any Muslim soldiers guarding you
14 at the camp, at either Foca or at -- either Foca or
16 A. No.
17 Q. The soldiers and guards and policemen that
18 were guarding you at either Partizan or at Foca, were
19 they all Serbs at all times?
20 A. All Serbs all the time.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Just a couple of housekeeping
22 matters, if I may. The original piece of paper bearing
23 this witness's name, have we formally marked that as an
24 exhibit? Might I do that at this point? I think we're
25 up to 179.
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The name of
2 the witness will appear on the Prosecution Exhibit 179,
3 and that will be placed under seal.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Similarly, this
5 list of names that have been shown to this witness,
6 with the corresponding numbers, might that also be
7 referred to as an exhibit? I think that would be then
8 Prosecution number 180, by my calculation.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. The
10 list of witnesses will be Prosecution Exhibit 180, and
11 it will be placed under seal as well.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: I think those are all my
14 questions, but out of an abundance of caution, I would
15 like to check with my colleagues, if I may.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Indeed, those are my
19 questions. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by counsel
21 from the Defence. Who will begin this time?
22 Mr. Jovanovic, yes.
23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation], Your Honour,
24 may it please the Court. I will be the first one to
25 start the cross-examination for Mr. Vukovic.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. Go ahead.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
3 Q. Good afternoon, madam.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. I also have to put a few questions to you.
6 A. All right.
7 Q. Is this your first time before a court?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please
10 speak into the microphone, please.
11 A. I'm sorry. I did not hear you. Yes. Yes.
12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Did anybody draw your attention to the
14 importance of the statement that you read before you
15 started testifying?
16 A. What are you referring to?
17 Q. Well, did somebody tell you what that means?
18 A. What what means?
19 Q. Before my learned colleague the Prosecutor
20 started talking to you --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- one of the gentlemen present here, a
23 younger man, he brought a piece of paper to you and you
24 read a sentence or two from that piece of paper.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did anyone tell you before what this meant?
2 Did anyone explain this to you, what this means, this
4 A. What are you referring to?
5 Q. I shall try to tell you what it is. I'm not
6 sure I know the exact wording, but I think that it
7 approximately says that you will speak the truth and
8 nothing but the truth here before the Court.
9 A. Yes, only the truth. I do apologise if I
10 made a mistake, because I'm an elderly woman. I cannot
11 remember, like, as well as people who are 20 or 30
12 years old. So if I made some mistakes, please correct
13 them. I'm 63 years old. First and foremost, I'm not
14 doing very well psychologically. Secondly, the state
15 of my health is not very good. So I do apologise if I
16 omitted something or made a mistake, so let someone
17 correct me.
18 Q. That's precisely why I'm asking you. Did
19 anyone tell you, did anyone explain this to you, that
20 if you do not abide by what you said, abide by what you
21 read, that that can lead to some problems that you
22 might have? When I say "some problems," I'm talking
23 about legal problems.
24 A. How could I know?
25 Q. For over two hours you answered many
1 questions today.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you tell us whether you spoke the
5 A. Well, I think I did. Maybe I made a mistake
6 somewhere. I don't know. As far as I can remember, I
8 Q. Very well. Can you tell me how come you came
9 to appear before this court today? Did you apply
10 yourself or did someone get in touch with you?
11 A. What do you mean, get in touch with me?
12 Q. I mean did somebody ask you whether you would
13 like to talk about what had happened to you, or did you
14 go yourself and say: During the war such-and-such a
15 thing happened to me?
16 A. If I had any contact with anyone, it was
17 contact with the Tribunal, of course.
18 Q. That's what I'm interested in. Did you get
19 in touch with the Tribunal or did the Tribunal get in
20 touch with you?
21 A. I don't know how to answer that.
22 Q. You do not remember?
23 A. I don't know how to answer that question.
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. I
25 have a statement here before me. I would like to ask
1 the representative of the registry to show this witness
2 her statement so that she could establish visual
3 contact with it. In the Serb language, please.
4 A. I can't see without my glasses.
5 Q. Just proceed slowly, please.
6 You recognise this --
7 A. I beg your pardon?
8 Q. Do you recognise what you've just been shown?
9 A. Yes. I'm reading it, so I see it.
10 Q. Is that your statement? I'm sorry, madam; I
11 could not hear your answer.
12 A. I can't see.
13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
14 I have a translation here that is a photocopy. There
15 is confirmation that it is this witness; however, I do
16 not have proof of this. I do not have a signature
17 here. Could the witness please be shown an English
18 copy so that she could recognise her signature? I
19 think that in this way we could shorten the
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The original statement
22 was recorded in English, Mr. Ryneveld?
23 MR. RYNEVELD: It was, to my understanding,
25 JUDGE MUMBA: So the witness can be shown
1 where the signature is and be asked whether she can
2 identify it.
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Madam, is this your signature?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does that mean that this is your statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the
9 statement of Witness FWS-62 be admitted into evidence?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?
11 MR. RYNEVELD: No, thank you.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What is the number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This will be
14 Exhibit D14, Defence Exhibit D14.
15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can we proceed, madam? When you answered the
17 questions of the Prosecutor today, you told us a bit
18 about the situation in your village before the conflict
19 broke out. I would be interested in the following:
20 Before this critical date, did anyone from your village
21 get hurt, and in any way?
22 A. You mean before that?
23 Q. Before the shooting.
24 A. No.
25 Q. If I understood you correctly, you slept in
1 the woods nevertheless.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did someone perhaps come to your house and
4 say that you should hide?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How did you decide that, then?
7 A. Well, we decided. We saw what happened in
8 Foca and in other villages, that they were burning, and
9 we thought that this wouldn't happen, so there.
10 Q. What did you see happen in Foca?
11 A. Well, we saw shooting, fire, and we got -- we
12 were frightened.
13 Q. Did you see it?
14 A. We saw smoke. We heard shooting.
15 Q. Can you describe this to us, because we don't
16 know it, where is your house located in the village?
17 A. How can I describe this to you? I couldn't
18 describe it to you. I'm near Mjesaja, if you know
19 where that is, near Buk Bijela.
20 Q. Unfortunately, I don't know. That's why I'm
21 asking you.
22 A. Well, how can I describe it to you? That's
23 the only thing I can tell you.
24 Q. Is your house, for example, in the centre of
25 the village or is it on the outskirts of the village?
1 A. Well, sort of on the outskirts, down closer
2 to the Drina River. If the village is further up, then
3 I'm a bit down. Sort of that way.
4 Q. You said a few minutes ago to me that you saw
5 smoke and that you heard shooting around your village.
6 A. Well, of course I did, because we were
8 Q. No. Before that day, before you were
10 A. No. No. No. On that morning, when we were
11 in the woods, we saw that.
12 Q. And before that morning, you did not see any
14 A. No. Not in our village, no.
15 Q. That's what I'm asking you. I'm asking
16 you -- perhaps it's going to be easier if I put it this
17 way: Before the attack on your village --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- you said that you heard shooting and saw
21 A. Yes. Yes. Not in my village. This was
22 beyond my village, further off.
23 Q. Yes. Yes.
24 A. Yes. Yes. There was shooting, there were
25 fires, but this was further away from my village.
1 Q. Did somebody tell you what was going on?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did anybody explain what was going on?
4 A. No, they didn't.
5 Q. Why were you afraid then?
6 A. Well, I don't know what we were afraid of.
7 We were afraid of everything. We're elderly people.
8 We couldn't -- I mean -- I don't know. We're old
9 already, so we weren't frightened for ourselves so
10 much, but that's how it was. I don't know. I never
11 had anything to do with politics. I was a housewife,
12 an elderly woman. I never went out of the house much.
13 I didn't go into town much. I lived in my village and
14 went about my business. I worked in the fields, saw to
15 my children, that kind of thing.
16 Q. Yes. I understand you, madam. I fully
17 understand. But when somebody with their whole family
18 goes to live in the woods, I can only assume that you
19 are threatened by a great danger indeed.
20 A. Well, we weren't there for our whole lives.
21 We didn't spend our whole lives in the woods. We were
22 there for some time, several nights towards the end.
23 We couldn't spend our whole lives in the woods. We
24 couldn't be there all the time.
25 Q. I don't think I'm following you. What did
1 you mean "towards the end"? Towards the end of what?
2 A. Well, we weren't in the woods all the time.
3 We couldn't stay there all the time. But when we saw
4 that everything was burning, and when we felt afraid to
5 sleep in the house, then we would go out. We couldn't
6 spend the whole time in the woods, of course.
7 Q. Well, yes, I understand you.
8 A. Yes. But what were we to do?
9 Q. So if I have understood you, it was like
10 this, and please interrupt me if I'm wrong: You were
11 at home during the daytime and went into the woods at
13 A. Well, yes. We weren't so much afraid during
14 the daytime, but we were afraid to go to sleep in our
15 houses, because we were afraid that somebody would kill
17 Q. So when you went home during the day, you
18 went home, I suppose, to get some food, to feed your
19 livestock, to do all the housework that had to be
21 A. Yes. We did everything. Everything that had
22 to be done we did. We worked normally. We went about
23 our business normally.
24 Q. Did anything bad happen to anyone?
25 A. No, nothing. Nothing until the 3rd. Until
1 the 3rd of July [sic], there was not a hair harmed on
2 anyone's head. The 3rd of June. In my village.
3 Q. Yes. Go ahead.
4 A. In my village, that's how it was.
5 Q. Then I really don't understand you, and I'd
6 like to ask you to explain this a little bit to me.
7 You were in the village during the daytime. You went
8 about your life normally.
9 A. Yes, normally.
10 Q. And then at night you would go into the
11 woods, you would sleep in the woods, and you would come
12 back the next day to the village?
13 A. Well, we didn't go out -- we didn't go to the
14 woods at night very often, just a few times when it all
15 started. Then we went right off and didn't return at
17 Q. Very well. Thank you. On that particular
18 morning, the 3rd of June, 1992, you say that at 6.00 --
19 let me just tell you one thing. I'm reading this --
20 I'm reading what I'm seeing from your statement.
21 A. Yes. That is correct, yes.
22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
23 on my copy, this particular part of the statement is to
24 be found on page 2. It is the witness statement, page
25 2, and it is paragraph 4.
1 JUDGE HUNT: What are the words that commence
2 that paragraph, please, sir?
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] "On the 3rd
4 of June." The paragraphs begins, "On the 3rd of June,"
5 Your Honour. "... at 6.00 a.m., 0600 a.m."
6 Q. Can you tell me what the weather was like
7 that morning? You were in the woods.
8 A. How do you mean?
9 Q. Was it sunny, was it raining, was it foggy?
10 A. No. It was foggy. Lots of fog. Very
11 cloudy, foggy. Strong fog.
12 Q. Thank you. Underneath that part of your
13 statement you go on to say the following: that you
14 fled through the meadow into the woods. Asked by the
15 Prosecution today, you said that you were half an hour
16 away from your house.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Well, I don't know what that means, "half an
20 A. Well, there was a brook and there was a bush
21 and a bit of wood, and that's where we took refuge and
22 that's where we stayed. It wasn't very far from the
23 house. My house is on low-lying land, and that was
24 where the woods were, and there were some hedges, and
25 that's where we were.
1 Q. Yes, I believe where you were, but what I'm
2 interested in is the following: You measure time by
3 the clock. I am interested in distance, in metres.
4 A. Well, I wasn't very far from my house. My
5 house is in the meadow, and I went -- there was a brook
6 down below, and we -- it was half an hour from our
7 house. I don't know. I can't express this in metres.
8 I wouldn't know.
9 Q. You said today in your testimony that you do
10 not know and that you did not see precisely what
11 happened to your house.
12 A. No, I did not. Just when we were made to get
13 out on to the meadow, I turned round and saw that
14 houses were burning and my house was on fire too. Not
15 only my house, many other houses as well.
16 Q. I'm now going to read the portion of your
17 statement, and you have given this testimony before the
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
20 that part is also on page 2, and it begins with the
21 sentence, "We stood about 30 meters away."
22 A. Yes. When they caught us there and took us
23 off to Buk Bijela, I turned around and saw that my
24 house was burning.
25 Q. When you gave your statement to the Tribunal,
1 you said as follows: "We stood about 30 meters away
2 from our house. When I saw our Serb neighbours
3 throwing something into our house, I heard a strong
4 explosion and I saw our house begin to burn. (redacted)
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. On that occasion you say one thing, today you
10 say another. When are you telling the truth? Could
11 you tell me that?
12 A. When I was outside I saw them burning my
13 house and all the other houses.
14 Q. You saw all this?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You said you didn't see it.
17 A. Yes, I said my house was burning and I saw my
18 house burning. You can see a house when it's burning.
19 Q. Perhaps you didn't understand me. I didn't
20 say your house wasn't burnt. I did not say that your
21 house was not burnt down. You said today before this
22 Trial Chamber that you didn't see who did that, who set
23 fire to it. In your statement you describe in very
24 precise terms how this happened, and you even state the
25 names of the individuals who did that. Let me remind
1 you that you said it was very heavy fog a moment ago.
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. Please tell me, when were you speaking the
4 truth; when you gave your statement or in your
5 testimony today? When were you telling the truth?
6 Could you answer my question, please.
7 A. What did you say? I didn't hear you.
8 Q. I'll repeat the question. I'm interested in
9 knowing when you were telling the truth, whether today,
10 before the Trial Chamber, or when you made your
11 statement to the Tribunal.
12 A. Of course I told the truth in front of the
13 Trial Chamber.
14 Q. So you spoke the truth then and you're
15 speaking the truth now?
16 A. Of course. I might just be a little
17 disconcerted now, but ...
18 Q. Very well. Let us leave it at that, then,
19 and say you were muddled.
20 Could you tell us in more precise terms,
21 could you describe how you were arrested, taken
23 A. Well, how? I told you how. They caught us
24 and made us go to Buk Bijela.
25 Q. That's what I'm interested in. How did they
1 catch you?
2 A. Very easily. They found us in the woods and
3 caught us.
4 Q. Did anything happen -- if we forget about the
5 burning of the houses, did something happen, in
6 concrete terms, to you and the people that hid with you
7 before you were caught?
8 A. No, nothing; nothing until they caught us.
9 Q. Very well.
10 A. They caught us all together there.
11 Q. You said today that you know an individual
12 whose name is Zoran Vilotic?
13 A. Yes, I did. I do know him.
14 Q. Very well. In your statement, one paragraph
15 further down, on the same page, page 2, and the
16 sentence begins: "When we stood there, a Serb named
17 Zoran Vilotic approached us and told us to flee."
18 A. No, no. I didn't say that he told us to
20 Q. I'm just reading your own statement, which
21 you signed. Please tell us what the truth is. I don't
22 know what it is.
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. So you don't know what the truth is either.
25 A. Well, I don't know what I said.
1 Q. Let us go back a little bit to the statement
2 you gave. Could you describe how you came to give that
3 statement? How did you actually make the statement, if
4 you recall, so that we can clarify matters. Did
5 somebody talk to you, like we're talking now, like I'm
6 talking to you now? Were you sitting down and telling
7 everything you knew, or did it happen in some other
8 way? Did it take place in another way?
9 A. How do you mean? Told whom? Whom do you
10 think I told?
11 Q. Well, the individuals who took down your
12 statement, took the statement from you.
13 A. Well, quite -- well, naturally, I told them
14 the truth about what I knew. What I didn't know, I
15 couldn't say.
16 Q. Yes, I do believe that you did tell the truth
17 at one time. But I'm interested in what I asked you,
18 and that is: Do you remember what your talk was like?
19 How did your talk with the Tribunal take place?
20 A. Well, quite normally.
21 Q. What do you mean by "normally"?
22 A. Well, everything was fine. What I knew, I
23 said; what I didn't know, I didn't say.
24 Q. Yes. That's what I was interested in.
25 A. What did you say?
1 Q. Yes, that's what I was interested in
2 hearing. You said what you had to say and they took it
4 A. Yes. I told them what happened, what
5 happened to us, how they caught us, how they took us
6 off, how we were in the camp. What else, I don't know.
7 Q. Very well. Do you now say that the people
8 you talked to, that you did not tell them that a Serb
9 named Zoran Vilotic approached us and told us to flee?
10 A. Zoran Vilotic made us go to Buk Bijela.
11 Q. I'm not asking you where he took you, where
12 Zoran Vilotic made you go, but what I'm asking you is
13 this: Is it correct that you told individuals from the
14 Tribunal that a Serb named Zoran Vilotic came and told
15 you to flee? That's what I'm asking you.
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. You don't know what; whether you said that,
18 or what?
19 A. I just don't know.
20 Q. Madam, do you know that everything that we're
21 saying here today is being recorded on -- it is
22 recorded on tape; it is recorded on video?
23 A. Yes, I know all that, but when I don't know
24 something, I don't know it, so I can't say what I don't
1 Q. So you don't know whether you said that or
3 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
4 Q. Well, if you're not feeling very well,
5 perhaps we can make a break.
6 A. No, we don't have to make a break.
7 Q. Well, I'm suggesting that for your
9 A. No, you don't have to make a break because of
10 me. What I know, I shall gladly state. What I don't
11 know, I cannot say, and you can't make me say anything
12 I don't know. If I've forgotten something, if I've
13 made some mistakes, I don't know. I've had enough of
14 all this.
15 Q. I do believe that you have had enough of
16 everything, because you have lived through a war.
17 A. Well, I didn't -- I'm an ailing woman.
18 Q. And an elderly woman you are as well.
19 A. Yes, and I'm not psychologically all right.
20 The doctors are treating me for my nervous condition
21 and everything else.
22 Q. Madam, I'm very interested in finding out who
23 brought you here at all.
24 A. What I know, I know; what I don't know, I
25 don't know. I'm ready to say what I know. What I
1 don't know, I cannot say.
2 Q. Yes, but I have to continue with my
3 questions, because at one point you seemed to be saying
4 one thing; at another point you say something else.
5 You see these three men here? They have been charged
6 for terrible crimes, and you are a witness for the
7 Prosecution. As their Defence counsel --
8 A. My husband is not here anymore. He's no
9 longer with us, and I'm going on living. I think
10 that's very difficult. I've been living for the past
11 eight years --
12 Q. Yes, I can understand that it is difficult
13 for you.
14 A. Terrible things happened to my husband. I've
15 never seen him again. I think that it is very hard.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you have to understand
17 the state in which the witness is and simply ask her
18 questions to elicit whatever evidence you want to
19 elicit; otherwise we'll be here forever.
20 Mr. Ryneveld.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour's remarks have
22 addressed my concern. I just wondered the relevance of
23 this particular exchange. Thank you.
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
25 with your permission, I have just two more sentences.
1 Perhaps I've let myself go a little, but I should like
2 to ask your indulgence. We come from those regions,
3 from those parts. I know everything that this woman
4 has gone through.
5 A. Nobody can know. Only I know what I have
6 lived through. Nobody else can know.
7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is why
8 it is difficult for me too to ask questions like this.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation
10 continues] ... questions and let's have the answers, if
11 any. That way we'll come to an end.
12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
14 Q. Tell me, when you arrived in Buk Bijela, what
16 A. Well, what happened, they took my husband
17 from me.
18 Q. Before that, before that, you said that there
19 were some other persons that you knew that were there.
20 That you knew.
21 A. Zoran Vukovic took my husband from me, from
22 in front of me.
23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
24 may I consult with my colleagues, please, for a
1 JUDGE MUMBA: That's fine.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
4 Your Honour.
5 Q. Please explain. When you arrived down there,
6 what happened to you? Detail after detail, one thing
7 after another.
8 A. Are you putting this question to me?
9 Q. Yes, to you, madam.
10 A. All right.
11 Q. Go ahead. You arrived in Buk Bijela.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you find some other persons there that
14 you knew?
15 A. Yes, I did, women and children. One group
16 had arrived before me and then I came later.
17 Q. All right. I'm sorry, but now we have to go
18 back for a moment to the question of your arrest.
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do
21 apologise, Your Honour, but for this we do need the
22 representative of the Registry to come so that I could
23 give him a piece of paper with the code and name of the
24 witness that is not on the list that we got from the
25 Prosecutor today.
1 A. What does he want with this?
2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I want to ask you whether you know this
5 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's answers are
6 not audible. Could someone please help her with the
8 A. I know this person, yes.
9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. After you saw this person a few years later,
11 did you talk to this person?
12 A. About what?
13 Q. About how come you were arrested.
14 A. Oh, how should I know?
15 Q. Did you tell him how you were taken prisoner?
16 A. No. No. Why should I go into all of that?
17 Q. That person was heard before this Court, and
18 now I shall acquaint you with part of this person's
20 "On the 5th of July, on Sunday, with the
21 17 other members of my family, we decided to surrender
22 to the Serbs, surrender to a neighbour who called the
23 military police. After that, the women were taken to
24 Buk Bijela."
25 That is what he said, and he said that you
1 told him that. I'm asking you whether that is the
3 A. Well, that's his family that surrendered. I
4 was caught, whereas his family surrendered. That's
6 Q. You were not in that group?
7 A. No, I was not. I was caught before that.
8 They surrendered, and four days later his family came
9 down there too.
10 Q. Let us go back to Buk Bijela.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I'm going to
12 ask the witness to speak in front of the microphone,
13 because the interpreters find it very difficult to hear
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead, counsel. Go ahead,
17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
18 Your Honour.
19 Q. So you arrived in Buk Bijela.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The soldiers who escorted you ordered you to
22 do what?
23 A. To line up against the wall.
24 Q. When you stood up against the wall, what were
25 you looking at?
1 A. At the wall.
2 Q. In the statement that you gave to the
3 Tribunal, you said ...
4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
5 page 3, the beginning of the page, the second sentence,
6 it says: "We were ordered ..."
7 Q. You say: "We were ordered to stand against
8 the wall with our backs turned to the wall, facing the
9 Drina." When were you telling the truth?
10 A. No.
11 Q. I did not understand your answer.
12 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We were turned down
13 there, yes, toward the Drina. Yes, we were lined up
14 against the wall, and we were all one next to another.
15 Q. Are you trying to tell me again that you
16 forgot or that you got confused?
17 A. No, I did not forget. It's true. They took
18 us down to Buk Bijela. They made us line up against
19 the wall, one next to another, and then we were
20 watching Buk Bijela.
21 Q. I'm interested in the following: When you
22 were lined up, were you facing the wall or were you
23 facing the Drina?
24 A. Well, our backs -- I mean, we were lined up
25 against -- I mean, next to one another, and we weren't
1 even watching the Drina or anything, you know.
2 Q. Do you know why I'm asking you this? Once
3 you say one thing, and then on another occasion you say
4 another thing. You have to give us an exact answer.
5 A. Was that --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: In fairness, I don't know if
8 it is my own misunderstanding or the way in which the
9 questions are being asked, but I haven't seen an
10 inconsistency that my friend is now trying to explore,
11 shall we say. My concern is that -- my understanding
12 is that the witness's statement is consistent with the
13 evidence I heard. Now, if I'm mistaken about that -- I
14 just doesn't think it's fair to cross-examine a witness
15 about somewhere unless we can show that there is an
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, you have heard
18 what counsel for the Prosecution has said.
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
20 Honour. It seems to me that I am precisely pointing
21 out an inconsistency that exists between the statement
22 that the witness made and what we heard here today. I
23 am interested in which one of the two is the truth.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: And what is the inconsistency?
25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a
1 moment, please. The first inconsistency that exists
2 here is related to the way in which the witness's house
3 was burned. I said it a few minutes ago. In her
4 statement, there is a detailed description as to how
5 this happened, and the persons who did it were listed,
6 and there was a description of the actual event.
7 Today, here before the Court, the witness said that she
8 did not see any of this and that she did not know about
9 any of this.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: I was saying, we are through
12 with that inconsistency. What's the next one?
13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The next
14 inconsistency is the one we've just reached, Your
15 Honour. My first question was --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: No. No. No. Describe the
17 inconsistency, that's all, what the witness said as
18 opposed to what is in the statement. Then we can get
19 on from there.
20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In her
21 statement, the witness said that they were ordered to
22 line up against the wall with their backs turned to the
23 wall and facing the Drina. Today, the witness said
24 that they were ordered to line up against the wall
25 facing the wall.
1 A. Yes --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So? Go ahead and put
3 your questions. Go ahead.
4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
5 that is exactly the answer that I was waiting for. So
6 I'll put it again. I'll put the question again.
7 Q. Were you telling the truth then or today?
8 A. Well, of course I was telling the truth.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
11 I do apologise, but I have to point out yet another
12 inconsistency because I'll have to go back to that.
13 In her statement, the witness describes Zoran
14 Vilotic, a man who came to the woods where they were
15 and told her to flee. Today the witness says that this
16 is not so. As for that inconsistency, I did not manage
17 to get an answer from the witness. We can check the
18 transcript, but now I have to go back to that, if you
19 follow what I'm saying.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: You put it to her. You see,
21 what you do if there is an inconsistency, you describe
22 what she said in court, then you mention where the
23 inconsistency is in the statement, and you put it to
24 her which statement is the truth, then she will
1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
3 Q. The Zoran Vilotic mentioned in your
4 statement, who came to the woods telling you to flee,
5 is that the same person who appeared in Buk Bijela?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are there several Zoran Vilotic's?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. You said that -- I'm sorry. You said in your
10 statement that you know Zoran Vilotic (redacted)
14 A. Of course he did, yes.
15 Q. But the Zoran Vilotic from Hidrogradnja, is
16 he the Zoran Vilotic who appeared in Buk Bijela?
17 A. Yes. He worked in Hidrogradnja with my
18 husband, yes.
19 Q. I'm not asking you whether he worked in
20 Hidrogradnja. I'm asking you whether the Zoran Vilotic
21 from Hidrogradnja is the person who appeared in Buk
23 A. Of course I know him (redacted)
25 Q. The two of us do not understand each other.
1 I'm asking you whether Zoran Vilotic from Hidrogradnja
2 is the same Zoran Vilotic who appeared in Buk Bijela?
3 A. Yes. Yes. Now I understood what you're
4 asking me. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. Yeah. I understood now. I understood now.
7 Q. Now you have to explain the following to me:
8 Since you stated that this Zoran Vilotic from
9 Hidrogradnja came and told you to flee -- let me just
10 ask you something else. At that point in time, your
11 husband was with you in the forest; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you explain this to me? First, this
14 Zoran Vilotic tells you to flee, warns you, and then
15 participates in this same incident involving your
17 A. I don't remember that I said that we should
18 flee. He did make us go to Buk Bijela. He caught us
19 in the woods, in the bush, yes.
20 I've been thinking now. Eight years have
21 gone by since then. That's a lot of time. And at that
22 time -- how should I put this? -- I didn't know what to
23 do with myself, where I was, and I lost my family,
24 eight family members. Eight family members I lost, and
25 my husband.
1 Q. I know that eight years have gone by since
2 then and at this point in time we are talking, but five
3 years ago -- I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, would you like a
6 A. No, I wouldn't. But I don't want to be
7 mistreated to such an extent. I don't want to be
8 provoked in this way by anyone.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That is understood.
10 Counsel, just ask your questions and let's
11 move on.
12 A. First I should bring a medical certificate
13 from my doctor so that he could see that. What I know,
14 I will tell you; and what I don't know, I don't know;
15 but I don't want anyone to drain me.
16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. [No translation]
18 A. What did you say?
19 Q. I asked you how many buses arrived in Buk
21 A. One.
22 Q. How many of you were arrested?
23 A. Well, there were about perhaps 50 of us,
24 children and women.
25 Q. How many soldiers were there guarding you?
1 A. Well, there were -- I mean, those who took
2 the bus together with us.
3 Q. No. I'm asking you: How many soldiers were
4 there guarding you?
5 A. You mean in Buk Bijela?
6 Q. Yes, in Buk Bijela.
7 A. Who guarded us? No one guarded us. We spent
8 some time there and then we left. I mean, who would
9 guard us?
10 Q. How many soldiers were in Buk Bijela?
11 A. Well, I didn't count them. How should I
13 Q. Two hundred?
14 A. Well, I don't know. There were quite a few
15 of them.
16 Q. May I help you? For example, 50?
17 A. I don't know. I was not counting. I cannot
18 tell you. Finally, honestly, I cannot tell you.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can we go ahead. The
20 evidence is there were soldiers there, and that is
22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
23 Honour. I'm trying --
24 JUDGE MUMBA: The armed conflict is not
25 disputed. Please go ahead.
1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
2 Honour. I am not contesting the armed conflict. I'm
3 just trying to ascertain the number of persons, nothing
4 more than that. In the statement given by the witness,
5 she says that 50 individuals entered the bus.
6 A. I mean women and children. There were 50
7 women and children who got on the bus.
8 Q. Page 3 of your statement, last paragraph,
9 halfway down you state the following: "Approximately
10 50 Chetniks came with us into the bus." You said that
11 and you signed it. Do you stand by that?
12 A. I said 50 women and children in the bus.
13 They took us into the bus. Perhaps there were 30 or 40
14 of them. I don't know how many. They escorted us to
15 Foca, to the station.
16 Q. Well, that's different to what you stated.
17 I'm interested in knowing how many people could have
18 got onto that bus. Could you tell me how many managed
19 to fit into the bus?
20 A. Well, there was all of us women and children,
21 and perhaps 30 or 40 of them. I don't know. I
22 couldn't tell you. I didn't count. I didn't have
23 time. And they went with us right up to the SUP
24 building in Foca.
25 Q. When you were transferred to the Partizan
1 Sports Hall, was there any electric lighting in the
3 A. No.
4 Q. Was there any other kind of lighting?
5 A. Well, they came -- when they came to get the
6 women, they would light their lighters or a piece of
7 paper to be able to see.
8 Q. No. I'm thinking of any other form of
10 A. No, there was no other form of lighting.
11 Q. Do you remember what kind of glass there was
12 on the windows?
13 A. I beg your pardon?
14 Q. Do you remember what kind of glass the
15 windows had?
16 A. Well, it was broken. There was glass all
17 over the floor.
18 Q. So there were no windows?
19 A. No. No. The windows were all broken.
20 Q. Were there any iron bars or fences of any
21 kind on the windows?
22 A. No, there were not.
23 Q. How were you able to determine the guard
24 shifts in the Partizan Sports Hall?
25 A. Well, we saw them standing guard and then we
1 saw them change. You have to see, we didn't go into
2 town. The doors were there. We weren't able to go
4 Q. So you couldn't go out of the open door?
5 A. Well, the door was open, but we just stood in
6 front of the door down there.
7 Q. Did you know any of the guards?
8 A. No, I didn't know anybody. Who would I
9 know? Nobody.
10 Q. Could you take a look at the list in front of
11 you, please.
12 A. Yes, I know who you mean. You mean of the
14 Q. No, but you can answer that question, if you
15 would like to.
16 A. This is the list, is it?
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Are you talking about Exhibit
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know,
20 Your Honour. I thought that was -- yes, yes. I don't
21 know which other list the witness has in front of her.
22 One hundred eighty. I don't know which other one there
23 is, whether any other list exists. I'm talking about
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead and ask her that
2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the
3 witness is looking at something else.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: It looks like the witness is
5 looking at a witness statement that was marked as a
6 Defence exhibit.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: What would you like the witness
8 to look at, Counsel?
9 A. Well, what do you want me to look at here?
10 These are all women here.
11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
12 not to look at it, but I would like to ask a question
13 to clear up the number issue, the issue of numbers.
14 A. Well, these are all women on the list. There
15 are no men.
16 Q. My question is as follows: Does the witness
17 remember any specific event in which the witnesses
18 under number 50 and 51 took part during her -- the time
19 she spent in the Partizan Sports Hall?
20 A. Fifty, fifty-one. How do you mean, took
21 part? Took part in what? These two people --
22 Q. Yes. I apologise.
23 A. These two people under 50 and 51, of course I
24 know them, yes, but they're women.
25 Q. Yes. I'm thinking of those two women.
1 A. Well, say so.
2 Q. Yes, that was a misunderstanding. Were these
3 two -- did these two individuals take part together in
4 an event which you recall from that time?
5 A. Of course. These two individuals -- how
6 shall I put this? It's a bit difficult for me to say,
7 but I have to say it. I don't know how to put it into
8 words, but those two people were raped.
9 Q. I didn't ask you that; I just asked whether
10 you remember, recall an event in which those two
11 individuals took part, and the event took place in the
12 Partizan Sports Hall.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you bring the witness to
14 the event? Can you mention what the event is, describe
15 it to her so she can remember, perhaps, if she can, and
16 then ask her whether those two people took part in
17 that. You know, when you are cross-examining, you have
18 to describe what you want the witness to remember, and
19 then ask her.
20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
21 Honour. I'm learning all the time the rules of
22 cross-examination, how to examine a witness, and of
23 course those rules are quite different where I come
24 from. I don't know that I could lead the witness, but
25 thank you for advising me on that point.
1 Q. Do you recall, Witness, the situation in
2 which Witness 50 hid?
3 A. Hid?
4 Q. Yes, hid in the hall, in the toilet, in the
5 lavatory of the hall.
6 A. I have no idea.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. Perhaps they did hide. I don't know. I
9 don't remember.
10 Q. Towards the end of your statement you say
11 that you know that many women became pregnant. How do
12 you know that?
13 A. Well, they went to the doctor's. I
14 apologise, but that individual you asked me about under
15 number 50, the number 50 individual, yes, she did hide
16 in the toilets. I was thinking of somebody else. Yes,
17 she did hide. When they looked for her, yes, she did
18 hide in the lavatory. I apologise.
19 Q. Could you describe what happened?
20 A. Well, they took her away.
21 Q. Before they took her away, that event when
22 she hid.
23 A. Well, nothing. She was afraid and she tried
24 to escape. She went into the lavatory to hide. She
25 wasn't able to hide. They saw her, and that's what
2 Q. If I'm wrong, please put me right. Did
3 somebody go to fetch her?
4 A. Her mother went to fetch her.
5 Q. Thank you. To go back to the question I
6 asked a moment ago, how do you know that these women
7 became pregnant? How do you know that certain women
8 became pregnant?
9 A. Well, that's quite stupid. They went to the
10 doctor. The doctor examined them, and that's how.
11 Q. Did they tell you that?
12 A. No, they didn't tell me. I heard about it.
13 Q. Did the doctor tell you?
14 A. No. Rumour. They were rumours. It was
15 talked about. I didn't talk to them; I wasn't
16 interested, to tell you the truth.
17 Q. Can you tell us who you heard that from?
18 A. Well, I don't know. How do I know who I
19 heard it from?
20 Q. Did any of the individuals on the list before
21 you become pregnant?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Who told you that some of them had abortions?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. I don't understand. What don't you know?
1 A. I don't know what they did, how they did it.
2 I don't know. I wasn't interested in that. It
3 wasn't -- how shall I put it? -- it wasn't -- I don't
4 know. It wasn't easy for me at all.
5 Q. I have to refer you back to the statement you
6 gave, page 6 of that statement, paragraph 3. The
7 sentence begins: "I know that many of the women became
8 pregnant. I heard that in Montenegro some of them had
9 abortions. I don't know where all the women went to."
10 You say you know.
11 A. I know that.
12 Q. How do you know?
13 A. Well, I heard it talked about, that when --
14 and when they went to Montenegro they had to go to the
15 doctor and have themselves examined.
16 Q. But you don't know; you know that from the
17 stories that were told?
18 A. Yes. They went off whenever they went off,
19 to Turkey or wherever. I don't know. I never heard of
20 them or saw them after that.
21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
22 I have no further questions. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The next counsel?
24 Mr. Kolesar?
25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, any questions?
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?
5 MR. RYNEVELD: No, thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: There are no questions from the
7 Bench, Witness. Thank you very much for coming to The
8 Hague to give evidence. We appreciate the problems
9 you've gone through and we know that it's very
10 difficult for you to relive all those incidents,
11 particularly in a situation where you lost some members
12 of your family. Thank you. You are now released and
13 you're free to go.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Between witnesses, I suggest
16 we take a brief break so that the witness can be
17 escorted and the next one escorted in. How do you wish
18 to do that? Oh, I see how we're doing that. We're
19 just pulling down the blinds.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. They're just pulling the
22 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good afternoon, Witness.
1 Would you take the solemn declaration, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
3 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
4 and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: WITNESS 93
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please be seated.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, can you be of
8 assistance with this piece of paper, please.
9 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
10 Q. Witness, I'd like you to look at a piece of
11 paper with a name and a number on it.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you show that to the
13 witness, please.
14 Q. Is that your name on that piece of paper?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that piece of paper be
17 marked as Prosecution Exhibit number 181, please. And
18 if so, I'm going to ask that the witness throughout
19 these proceedings will now be referred to as Witness
20 number 93.
21 Q. Witness, do I understand correctly that you
22 were born in the village of Duceli, which is about 12
23 or 15 kilometers from Foca?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I understand that in approximately 1960
1 or thereabouts you were married, and you and your
2 husband moved to the village of Trbusce. Perhaps I've
3 pronounced that wrong.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I understand that's about halfway towards
6 Foca, about seven kilometers from Foca; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And during the course of your marriage, you
10 and your husband had four children?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you laboured as a housewife; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, you're aware that there was an outbreak
16 of -- a war in the vicinity where you lived; is that
17 correct, in 1992?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And prior to that outbreak, were you ever
20 involved in politics of any kind?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were you a member of the SDS or the SDA or
23 any other political party?
24 A. I was never a member of any party.
25 Q. Do you know whether your husband was
1 politically active or involved as a member in any
3 A. No, he wasn't.
4 Q. What did your husband do for a living?
5 A. He worked in a factory; Sip Maglic was its
7 Q. And where was that factory located?
8 A. Slani Brod, near Foca.
9 Q. I see. And prior to the war, were you aware
10 of any tensions between the various ethnic groups in
11 your village or surroundings?
12 A. Well, what I personally know was that there
13 was a Focatrans incident and the workers' opinions were
14 divided over a director and then the Serbs didn't want
15 to work with the Muslims anymore, and buses coming from
16 Serbia which had "Viner" written on them came and I had
17 my doubts that something could be happening in Foca.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, the time.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, we have reached that. I'm
20 sorry. Thank you very much. I'll continue tomorrow,
21 if I may.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
23 Witness, we have to stop now. You will come
24 back tomorrow morning and you will continue giving
25 evidence. The Court will rise until tomorrow morning
1 at 0930 hours, in this courtroom.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
3 at 4:00 p.m., to be reconvened on
4 Tuesday, the 28th day of March 2000,
5 at 9.30 a.m.