1 Tuesday, 28 March 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: May the register please call

7 the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] IT-96-23-T

9 and IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub

10 Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Good morning,

12 Witness. We are continuing this morning with you

13 giving evidence. The declaration you made yesterday to

14 tell the truth continues binding you, so counsel for

15 the Prosecution, please.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 WITNESS: WITNESS 93 [Resumed]

18 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld [Cont'd]:

19 Q. Now, Witness 93, yesterday, just before we

20 broke, I think you had told us where you had lived and

21 some of the background, that you nor your husband were

22 involved in politics.

23 I now would like you to think about the 8th

24 of April, 1992. To your knowledge, did something

25 happen that day in relation to the town of Foca?

1 A. Yes, it did. I was in my own house and I

2 heard shooting at Foca. I couldn't see anything, but I

3 just heard the shooting.

4 Q. And how far was your village from Foca

5 again? I think you told us yesterday, but please

6 remind me.

7 A. About seven kilometers away.

8 Q. And you could hear the sounds of shooting, I

9 believe you said?

10 A. Yes. Heavy weapons, not the lighter kind.

11 Q. Was your own village affected by this

12 shooting or heavy weapons on that day?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did it at some subsequent time -- did at some

15 subsequent time, did any soldiers arrive in your

16 village?

17 A. The soldiers arrived, but I don't remember

18 the exact date. And they asked the men, the Muslim

19 men, to give up their weapons. So they collected all

20 the pistols that people had, but they all had a permit

21 for carrying firearms.

22 Q. All right. And these people that came to

23 your village to collect firearms from the Muslim men,

24 did you recognise any of these individuals?

25 A. Well, if I have to say, then I must say yes,

1 I did recognise some of them. Slobodan Popovic, Neso

2 Jankovic, Vojislav Gajic and Zoran Pavlovic.

3 Q. And I take it you knew them before they came

4 to your village?

5 A. Yes, that's right. I knew them.

6 Q. Did you know whether they were Muslim or

7 Serbian or Croat or some other ethnicity?

8 A. They were quite definitely Serbs.

9 Q. How were they dressed the day they came to

10 your village to collect weapons?

11 A. They wore camouflage uniforms and were armed.

12 Q. When you say "armed," what do you mean? What

13 did you see?

14 A. I saw the hand grenades around their waists.

15 I saw automatic rifles and knives stuck into their

16 boots.

17 Q. The uniforms, you say they were camouflage

18 uniforms. Were there any other colour uniforms that

19 you saw that day?

20 A. Camouflage and the olive-green/grey type of

21 uniform that was worn by the former JNA.

22 Q. These uniforms, were you able to see whether

23 any of the individuals that you saw wore any particular

24 insignia, like armbands or colours or any kind of

25 things on their shoulders, for example?

1 A. Not at that time. I don't remember seeing

2 anything then.

3 Q. These people that you named, that you said

4 were Serbian soldiers, were they men from your village

5 or from a different area, or where did you know them

6 from?

7 A. They were from around my village. I met them

8 earlier on and I knew them, some of them, and I was

9 sure that that was them.

10 Q. Now, Witness, I think just earlier when we

11 started this morning you indicated that the shooting in

12 Foca started on the 8th of April, 1992. You're not

13 sure when these men that you named came to your

14 village. Are you able to say if it was the same day or

15 on a subsequent day or give us an approximate time?

16 A. No, it wasn't on the same day. I think it

17 was sometime in mid-April.

18 Q. All right. Now, after these soldiers came to

19 collect the weapons from the Muslim men in your

20 village, how, if at all, did that affect the

21 relationship between the Muslims and the Serbs in your

22 village?

23 A. Well, it naturally had an effect on us all.

24 We were afraid. And then from that day onwards we had

25 shooting, sporadic gunfire at every, say, 50 meters,

1 from around the village, and it was natural that we

2 were afraid.

3 Q. Yes. Was there continued interaction between

4 the Muslims and the Serbs in the village? Did life go

5 on as normal?

6 A. Well, no. From the neighbouring Serbian

7 villages, neither the women nor the men would have any

8 contact with us, except when the soldiers passed by our

9 village, passed through our village, we would see them.

10 Q. Did you have any Serb neighbours?

11 A. Yes, I have.

12 Q. You don't have to give us their names, but

13 did you have a conversation with one of your Serb

14 neighbours concerning uniforms, for example?

15 A. Yes. One of my neighbours told me

16 personally, and my husband, that the Yugoslav People's

17 Army that evening, or several evenings prior to that,

18 had brought uniforms and weapons to their village and

19 that all military conscripts had to take them.

20 Q. And these were Serbs that were given these

21 weapons and uniforms?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know whether any Muslim men were given

24 uniforms and weapons from the JNA?

25 A. Not a single one. In my particular village,

1 not one of them.

2 Q. Were your houses ever searched or, in

3 particular, was your house ever searched?

4 A. Well, I've already said. When they came to

5 take the pistols away, a man came to the door, asked

6 whether I had any weapons. I said I didn't. He said,

7 "If you have, give them up, because if the other

8 people come, you know what will be your fate." I told

9 him he could feel free to search the house, but he

10 didn't want to search the house. But he did say, "Be

11 careful, because if the other lot come and find you

12 with weapons, you'll have a hard time of it."

13 Q. Apart from these soldiers arriving, was there

14 any other indication in the vicinity of your village

15 about military action? Were there any -- for example,

16 was there any heavy tanks or helicopters or any kind of

17 military equipment in the area?

18 A. Just one helicopter that I was able to see.

19 He skirted a hill. That's all I saw. I didn't see any

20 other heavy weaponry, or I didn't hear anything

21 either.

22 Q. All right. Did the soldiers stay or did they

23 leave once they came to collect the weapons?

24 A. They went off. And Slobodan Popovic

25 personally told us that he guaranteed our freedom and

1 safety, and that we could stay on, that nobody would

2 harm us at all.

3 Q. Did the soldiers ever come back, or did any

4 other soldiers come?

5 A. No. Just my neighbour would go by, but

6 nobody else came, until the 24th of June. They came

7 and collected us all up.

8 Q. In the interim period before the 24th of June

9 when you were all collected, are you aware of any

10 houses being damaged in your village?

11 A. Well, yes. On one occasion, there was

12 shooting at three houses in my neighbourhood.

13 Q. Do you know how that happened or do you know

14 who did it? You don't have to give us names if you

15 don't wish to, but can you tell us what you know of the

16 incident, from your personal knowledge?

17 A. Well, I was in my own house and I heard

18 shooting, a shot near my house, and then the next day I

19 found out that they shot at two other houses as well.

20 So they shot at a total of three houses in my own

21 village.

22 Q. Did you hear any voices at the time that this

23 shooting incident occurred?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Did you recognise the voice of anyone? You

1 don't have to name him or her, but did you recognise

2 any voices?

3 A. Yes, I did recognise the voice. It was that

4 of my neighbour.

5 Q. And was your neighbour a Muslim or a Serb?

6 A. He was a Serb.

7 Q. And the voice you heard of this neighbour,

8 was he -- could you tell from the voice whether he was

9 one of the people that was shooting, or was he just in

10 the vicinity, or are you able to tell?

11 A. Well, he was there, but you couldn't hear the

12 shooting any more. And while the other Serbs, the Serb

13 neighbours that lived nearby heard something shooting,

14 then they began shooting from there as well. But they

15 did recognise him and began to call -- they called out

16 to him and came to try and prevent him.

17 Q. The houses that were shot at, were they Serb

18 houses?

19 A. No. They were Muslim.

20 Q. And the neighbour whose voice you heard was a

21 Serb, is that it?

22 A. Yes. That's right. I knew him very well,

23 and I can say with absolute certainty that it was him.

24 Q. You were about to tell us about something

25 happening on the 24th of June, 1992. I think you

1 indicate that's the date when you were collected, or

2 I'm not sure if that's the word you used. Tell us

3 about that, please.

4 A. Well, that day I happened to be in the yard

5 in front of my house with my husband when I saw a

6 soldier coming along with an automatic rifle pointed at

7 us in one hand, and with the other hand he beckoned to

8 us and told us to come up to him, and we started off

9 with him. He also had hand grenades and a knife in his

10 boot and the automatic rifle. Ten metres off we met

11 with only other neighbours of ours who were being taken

12 off by some other people. They told us that we were to

13 go towards the main road leading to Brod and Foca.

14 When we came to the last house in my village,

15 one of these men said, "That's the house," that the

16 women should go into the house and that the men should

17 continue on. And they locked us in there. The men

18 went off. We stayed there until evening.

19 Q. I'm going to stop you there. We'll finish

20 the story, but I just want to fill in some detail of

21 what you've told us so far. Is that okay?

22 All right. Now, you say that you saw a

23 soldier coming towards your house, and you've described

24 that he had an automatic weapon. You've told us about

25 hand grenades and things like that. What kind of

1 dress -- how was he dressed, apart from these weapons

2 you've described?

3 A. Camouflage uniform, a band round his head,

4 black gloves with the fingers -- the type with the

5 fingers cut off, and that was more or less it.

6 Q. This band around his head, do you recall its

7 colour?

8 A. Black.

9 Q. So there was a single soldier that beckoned

10 to you and your husband, and you did what he wanted, I

11 take it.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Once you approached him, what did he want you

14 to do?

15 A. Nothing. He just told us to continue on

16 moving in front of him.

17 Q. In what direction did you move, away from

18 your house or towards a particular location or what?

19 A. Well, that particular spot was one where they

20 took us to that last house in the village. They locked

21 us up there, just the women and children, and they sent

22 the men off.

23 Q. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what

24 I understood you to say when you told us about this

25 incident, I understand that as you were walking towards

1 this particular house, you were joined by other

2 villagers who were escorted by other soldiers. Did I

3 understand that correctly?

4 A. Yes. That's correct.

5 Q. How many other villagers?

6 A. Well, there were 12 men and about 17 to 18

7 women and 4 children.

8 Q. And how many soldiers were escorting this

9 group of people by the time you had all collected?

10 A. Well, to tell you the truth, between 10 and

11 12. I don't know the exact number, but what I saw on

12 that particular occasion, that was about the number.

13 Q. Did you know the ethnicity of the villagers

14 that were being collected?

15 A. They were Muslims; just Muslims; only

16 Muslims.

17 Q. How about the soldiers? Could you tell their

18 ethnicity?

19 A. Well, it's common knowledge that they were

20 Serbs, nobody else.

21 Q. Were all of the soldiers dressed in uniforms

22 and carrying weapons?

23 A. Yes, they were.

24 Q. Now, you've got to the point where you've

25 told us that the women and children were -- I don't

1 want to put words in your mouth. Were the women and

2 children put in this house together?

3 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, they were.

4 Q. Did the men go in the house with you?

5 A. No, they didn't. They ordered the men to

6 continue on towards the main road.

7 Q. You told us moments ago that you had counted

8 12 men. Is that correct?

9 A. Well, that's how many there were in that

10 village, the men in the village, although at that

11 particular moment, two of them weren't with them, but

12 they found them later on and they all joined up.

13 Q. I see. But at the time you and the women and

14 children went into this house there were 12 men; is

15 that correct?

16 A. No. There were ten then, and then I heard

17 from one of the women I knew that they brought in --

18 that they caught two other men.

19 Q. Of the ten men that you saw, did you know all

20 of them by name?

21 A. Yes, I knew them very well.

22 Q. Was your husband among those ten men?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you see or hear what happened to these

25 men after you and the women and children were placed in

1 this house? Tell us what happened next.

2 A. Well, all I can tell you is that I never saw

3 or heard of them again. When they took them off some

4 300 to 500 meters away, I heard a burst of gunfire. I

5 don't know what happened. I can -- I assume that they

6 weren't killed on that occasion, but I'm not sure. I

7 didn't see. I don't know what the shooting actually

8 meant.

9 Q. When you say "a burst," does that mean one

10 shot or multiple shots?

11 A. More. More. There was a burst of gunfire

12 from several weapons.

13 Q. Have you ever seen your husband again after

14 you last saw him with the group of ten men that day?

15 A. Never again.

16 Q. Do you recall the names of the men who were

17 led away?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are you able to tell us? Are you willing to

20 tell us?

21 A. Well, if I have to -- I don't want to say,

22 but if I have to, I shall.

23 Q. Did they all have -- well, tell me, were they

24 various members from different families or were they

25 all related; do you know?

1 A. All relatives with one surname.

2 Q. I don't want you to give the surname, in any

3 event. So they were all relatives with one surname, is

4 that correct, all relatives of yours?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. And these men, were they -- can you give us

7 approximate ages, from the youngest to the oldest? I

8 don't have to -- don't tell us all their ages, but was

9 there an age difference between the men, from, say, the

10 oldest to the youngest?

11 A. Well, the youngest was about -- I'm not quite

12 sure, but I think he was about 22, give or take a year,

13 and the eldest was between 60 and 70.

14 Q. What happened to the women and children in

15 the house?

16 A. Well, they kept us there until nightfall. I

17 heard a vehicle come up. One of them ordered us to go

18 out of the house two by two. When we got out of the

19 house, I saw a refrigerator truck and a soldier

20 standing by it, writing down the names and surnames,

21 and we would get into that refrigerator truck one by

22 one.

23 Q. Now, before the refrigerator truck arrived,

24 was there any conversation with any of the soldiers

25 once you had been assembled within the house?

1 A. Well, yes. They said all sorts of things

2 outside, and then they told us to make them some

3 coffee, and things like that.

4 Q. Did you have any discussions with any of the

5 women while you were in the house about the manner in

6 which they were apprehended and brought to this house

7 together?

8 A. Well, quite simply they told me that they had

9 been all collected up and went off to the main --

10 everybody was taken off to the main road. That's all

11 they said; nothing much.

12 Q. When you and your husband were apprehended,

13 did anyone search you for personal possessions?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know whether the other women were

16 searched for personal possessions?

17 A. Well, yes. They took off some women and

18 asked them why they had locked their houses, that they

19 should go and unlock them, and then they would take

20 them off.

21 Q. Did any of the women have money or gold with

22 them, to your knowledge?

23 A. I don't know. Nobody asked for that while we

24 were there. Nobody asked us for that. But the women

25 that went back home said that they had looked for gold

1 and money in their houses when they took them off.

2 Q. Who had looked for gold and money in the

3 houses when they took them off; the women or the

4 soldiers?

5 A. Well, they said -- actually, they told the

6 women to give up their -- these things themselves.

7 Q. I see. Now, you say that there were some

8 women sent back to their houses. Did you know these

9 women?

10 A. Yes, I did. They were all my neighbours,

11 women I had lived with in the same village for many

12 years.

13 Q. Did one of those women tell you about what

14 occurred to her when she went back to her house?

15 A. No. She just said that they made them give

16 up their money and weapons. They didn't say anything

17 else.

18 Q. Don't give us any last names, but do you know

19 a woman by the name of Tidza?

20 A. Yes, I know her very well.

21 Q. Did you have a conversation with her about

22 what occurred to her?

23 A. Well, yes, I did, and I was there watching

24 when she asked those military men to go over to her

25 house, which was nearby the house we were locked in,

1 and she went off, escorted -- I saw a soldier escorting

2 her. And when she went into the house, he went in

3 after her, and I heard her scream. And then one of the

4 soldiers who was guarding us, said, "Who is that who

5 went off there?" He sent off another soldier, and both

6 of them returned soon after that, and Tidza told me

7 later on that he hadn't done anything to her because

8 the second soldier had saved her, in fact.

9 Q. You told us about some refrigerator trucks.

10 When did they arrive and what happened to the women in

11 relation to those trucks?

12 A. Well, they made us sit down, took down our

13 names and surnames, and they drove us off. I couldn't

14 see where we were going; it was dark. When we got off,

15 out of the trucks, and only when it was morning, I saw

16 where we were, and then I knew where we were.

17 Q. And where was that?

18 A. Bukovice, the motel. The hotel at Bukovice.

19 Q. And how far is that from your village?

20 A. Well, about three or four kilometers, I

21 think. If you take the road, perhaps it would be five

22 kilometers. That's it. I'm not quite sure of the

23 distance, but that's it, approximately.

24 Q. Still close to your village?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is it on the way to Buk Bijela?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What happened when you got to the motel?

4 A. Well, that's where they put us up. I heard a

5 soldier shout that they were going to get some other

6 women. These other women that they brought in were

7 from the neighbouring hamlet, and I knew them very

8 well. That's it.

9 Q. The name of this neighbouring hamlet, can you

10 give that to us?

11 A. Trnovace.

12 Q. Trnovace.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And so if I understand correctly, there's the

15 original group of some 17 women, I think you said, and

16 four children that were in your group that went by the

17 refrigerator truck, and then a second group of women

18 came from Trnovace; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, yes. Yes. From Trnovace to Bukovice,

20 in the motel, this other group.

21 Q. Do you know how many women were in this

22 second group?

23 A. Well, again around 15. I did not count them

24 exactly. I never did. I know all these women very

25 well, but I can't give you the exact number. I think

1 it's about 15.

2 Q. So collectively we have something like 30, 35

3 people, women and children, collected, between the two

4 groups, roughly?

5 A. Roughly, yes.

6 Q. Now, were there soldiers guarding this group

7 of women and children?

8 A. Yes, yes. All the time. All night they

9 guarded us.

10 Q. And I know this may sound like repetitive

11 questions, but were all the women that came from

12 Trnovace, were they all Muslim, to your knowledge?

13 A. Yes. Yes. I'm sure all of them were Muslim.

14 Q. And these soldiers, were they all in

15 uniform?

16 A. Well, during the night it was dark, but then

17 after it dawned, everybody around the hotel and in the

18 hotel was in uniform, and they had automatic rifles as

19 well.

20 Q. I see. Now, you earlier referred to a woman

21 whose first name I gave you, who was taken back to the

22 house. Was she with you eventually at Bukovice.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did something happen to her at Bukovice that

25 you can tell us about at this point?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was that?

3 A. A soldier walked in. He used a torchlight

4 for light. He took her out, and another person, and

5 that's it.

6 Q. How long were they gone in the company of

7 this soldier?

8 A. Well, the first person that you asked me

9 about, approximately four or five hours, I think. I'm

10 not quite sure that that's it, but I think that's how

11 long she stayed.

12 Q. I'm going to deal with that person first and

13 we'll deal with the second person later. When she

14 returned four to five hours later, did she tell you

15 what had happened to her?

16 A. Well, she told me that this soldier took her

17 to the school at Brod, and that he sat there with her,

18 talked to her about all sorts of things, asked her all

19 sorts of questions. He tried to abuse her verbally, in

20 the sense of verbal rape. That's it. And he said that

21 he tried to save her because, otherwise, others would

22 take her. That's what he told me.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: May I have the assistance of

24 the usher.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you to write this person's

1 name on a piece of paper if you would, please. Is

2 there a pen there?

3 A. First or the second?

4 Q. Both names. It will not be made public.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: May I see that, please,

6 Mr. Usher?

7 Q. All right. Do you know the first and last

8 names of these two people whose names you've written

9 down? You've labelled one with the first name and then

10 two with the first name. I would like you to write

11 down the first and last names of each of these people.

12 Could you do that for us?

13 A. Well, I can, yes. Yes.

14 Q. Would you, please.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher. Let me see that

16 again, please. Thank you.

17 I'd like to tender that if I may, as an

18 exhibit in these proceedings. Perhaps --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we get the number,

20 please, from the registrar.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps my learned friends may

22 wish to see this as well.

23 Were we assigned a number, Madam Registrar?

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document

25 will be marked 182, Prosecution evidence.

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Will we be able to refer to them

3 by your previous list? Have they already got numbers?

4 That's what I'm asking you.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Not that I'm aware of. These

6 are not people who are on the protected list. Yet

7 under these circumstances, their names might identify

8 this witness, so out of an abundance of caution, I'm

9 doing it this way. There are so many ways whereby

10 people can be identified, and I'm just trying to avoid

11 being part of a problem.

12 Q. Now, Witness, you've written down the first

13 and last names of two people. The first person you've

14 labelled number 1, and that is the one about whom

15 you've been speaking, the one that went away for four

16 to five hours with a soldier and then told you what

17 happened; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The second name that you labelled number 2 on

20 the piece of paper, Exhibit number 182, was another

21 person who was taken out by this soldier; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How long was she gone?

25 A. Well, she was taken out all night, three

1 times, and then the fourth time she wasn't even

2 returned. When she was taken out, I heard a shot, as

3 if from a pistol. I don't know whether she was killed

4 then, but then we never saw her again.

5 Q. You have never seen her again?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Subsequently, did you speak to other people

8 who gave you an update on what happened to the

9 witness -- I'm sorry, to the individual who is

10 number 2 on Exhibit 182?

11 A. Well, I can't remember how much time had

12 passed. I heard from the other women that I saw from

13 the other village that a neighbour of theirs had said

14 that this person had had his or her throat slit at

15 Bukovice.

16 Q. And that was the camp where you were being

17 held, Bukovice?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, how long did you stay at Bukovice?

20 A. We only spent the night there. The soldiers

21 who guarded us said that someone from their

22 headquarters would come and that they would say what

23 was to happen to us afterwards.

24 Q. Did you recognise any of your guards at

25 Bukovice?

1 A. I did not recognise any of the guards.

2 Q. Did you see any other people in uniform other

3 than soldiers?

4 A. No, only those who came from these

5 headquarters, as they told us, who were to say what was

6 supposed to be done with us afterwards.

7 Q. I'd like you to turn your mind to the

8 following morning now, about 9.00. Do you know a

9 person by the name of Gojko Jankovic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you see him that day?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Tell us under what circumstances.

14 A. Well, he came with two other men who were in

15 police uniforms. One of those men who came with Gojko

16 told us that Foca was Serbian, that there was Serbian

17 authority in Foca, and that they would take us to

18 Pljevlja or Niksic, that they would have us transferred

19 there.

20 Q. This Gojko Jankovic, you knew him, obviously,

21 before seeing him at Bukovice?

22 A. Yes. I had known him very well for a long

23 time.

24 Q. Was he a Muslim or a Serb?

25 A. A Serb.

1 Q. And was he in uniform that day?

2 A. Yes, but I cannot remember exactly what

3 uniform it was. They wore different kinds of uniforms,

4 because they called themselves the Arkan men; the

5 Seselj men; and the Beli Orlovi, the White Eagles; and

6 also the Guards, and I can't remember exactly what

7 uniform Gojko had on that day.

8 Q. Now, you say "they called themselves" and

9 then you named a number of things. Were there

10 different soldiers from different outfits, if I can

11 call it that?

12 A. Well, they wore different kinds of insignia,

13 to tell you the truth. I did not see much of the

14 others, but I heard people say that they called

15 themselves different names.

16 Q. You say that there were some policemen with

17 him. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How could you tell the policemen from

20 soldiers?

21 A. Well, I saw that they wore the shirts and

22 uniforms that the police had worn until then.

23 Q. What colour were those uniforms?

24 A. The shirts were light blue, the trousers navy

25 blue, if you understand what I'm saying.

1 Q. I do. So they were largely in different

2 shades of blue; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Whereas the soldiers were in different shades

5 of green and olive and that sort of thing?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I see. Did you know any of the other

8 soldiers that were guarding you?

9 A. No, not at Bukovice. I did not know anyone,

10 and I didn't see many of them. I didn't dare look. I

11 don't know. You weren't supposed to look.

12 Q. Now, what happened -- you've told us that you

13 were told you would be moved to one of two places. Did

14 something, in fact, happen? Were you moved?

15 A. Yes. They made a list, and we said that we

16 wanted to go to Pljevlja. Then after they made the

17 list, Gojko Jankovic told us that we could go home to

18 collect our documents and whatever else we could take

19 with us, and that on the next morning they would take

20 us, that a bus would come at 10.00 from Trnovace and

21 that we would go together with these other women.

22 Q. Did what happen?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know a Jovan Vukovic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you see him at Bukovice?

2 A. I did not.

3 Q. What happened at 10.00 the following day?

4 You told us that you were in fact moved. Tell us what

5 happened after that.

6 A. On the same day they sent us to our homes, we

7 returned. We were all together at Trnovace with these

8 women. And the next day at 10.00 they came with the

9 bus and with permits, and on that day they took us to

10 Pljevlja. That's what we had written down too.

11 Q. So you were given permits. Were these exit

12 permits?

13 A. Well, yes.

14 Q. And were you taken directly to these places

15 or did you go via some other route? Where did you --

16 let me rephrase my question. Did you ultimately get on

17 a bus?

18 A. Well, yes. At Trnovace they took us onto

19 buses and took us to Foca.

20 Q. Foca. And what happened when you got to

21 Foca?

22 A. The bus stopped. Then they took out some

23 women. They took them to the SUP, allegedly, because

24 of some numbers that were wrong on their permits. The

25 women came back, and then another bus joined us, and

1 then two buses went with a police escort to Pljevlja.

2 Q. And Pljevlja, is that a border town?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that on the border between

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Montenegro?

6 A. Yes, between Bosnia and Montenegro, yes.

7 Q. Were you allowed to cross the border at that

8 point?

9 A. No. We stayed there. These drivers and

10 these policemen who escorted us, they went to negotiate

11 or something. I don't know what all of this was

12 about. But from the border a soldier in uniform came

13 with some kind of insignia. He went through our bus

14 and said that we could not enter Montenegro. So then

15 again we returned to Foca, again with a police escort.

16 That's the way it was.

17 Q. Do you remember approximately what day of

18 what month this was?

19 A. Well, if I remember correctly, this was the

20 26th of June, 1992.

21 Q. And when you got back to Foca after your

22 aborted trip to Montenegro, where did you stop?

23 A. The buses stopped opposite the SUP. The

24 drivers went to the SUP and they told us that they

25 tried to find another place for us to go, but they

1 couldn't, so they returned us to the high school centre

2 in Foca to spend the night there.

3 Q. So you were taken to the Foca High School,

4 were you?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. And how long were you at the Foca High

7 School?

8 A. Well, we only spent the night there. Again,

9 on the next day they came and told us to collect our

10 things, to go to the same bus, because the buses had

11 stayed within the compound during the night, and then

12 we set off for Niksic.

13 Q. And did you ultimately -- were you ultimately

14 allowed to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Yes, with a police escort. We entered

16 Montenegro.

17 Q. All right. I don't want to know where you

18 went. Please do not tell us. But you went -- okay.

19 You went to Montenegro, and you went on from there

20 subsequently to a foreign country; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: May I ask the usher to show

23 the witness Exhibit 47. I have copies here. Do you

24 need 47 or can I ...

25 Q. Looking at the permit at the back in your

1 language, do you recognise that as being your exit

2 permit?

3 A. Yes. Yes. That is my permit.

4 Q. Okay. That bears your name and it shows the

5 26th of June, 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, just a couple more

8 questions, if I may.

9 A. All right.

10 Q. You had a daughter?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was she with you when you were

13 apprehended with your husband?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Where was she -- sorry. You were about to

16 answer.

17 A. She was not with me. She lived in a village

18 in the neighbourhood. It wasn't too far away. Later,

19 two months later, I found out that my daughter had been

20 killed, because two of her sons came to where I was

21 staying. So I was with them for four years.

22 Q. Did your grandsons tell you how their mother

23 had died?

24 A. Yes. The older grandson was about 11 then, I

25 think. His mother was walking in front of him,

1 carrying his brother, who wasn't even 3 years old at

2 the time. He said that he saw her fall and that he saw

3 blood streaming from her hair. And he said that he

4 turned his attention to his little brother because his

5 little brother had fallen and was hurt. So that's it.

6 Q. Do you know on what date your daughter was

7 killed?

8 A. The 3rd of July.

9 Q. Of what year?

10 A. 1992.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I just check with my

12 colleagues? I believe those are my questions.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MR. RYNEVELD: There are apparently a

15 couple.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. RYNEVELD:

18 Q. Just for clarification, Witness, where did

19 your daughter live? I believe you told us she lived in

20 a village not far away. What was that village?

21 A. Trosanj.

22 Q. Trosanj?

23 A. Trosanj, yes.

24 Q. Thank you. And where is that in relation to

25 Foca?

1 A. Well, it is also above Buk Bijela, on the

2 right-hand side.

3 Q. One other question that I neglected to ask

4 you, and that is: While you were at the Foca High

5 School, during the night that you were there, was it a

6 peaceful night or did you hear noises?

7 A. Well, around the high school centre I heard

8 shooting, I heard screams.

9 Q. And when you were taken to the high school,

10 where were you kept?

11 A. First they brought us into a big room, and

12 then four or five men came in, amongst who was Mitar

13 Sipcic. He's the only one I recognised. They made a

14 speech to us. They said that they would take good care

15 of us. Although their people were being killed, they

16 would take good care of us. And then they called us

17 out for dinner and then they took us upstairs. They

18 assigned us to different rooms, men separately, women

19 and children separately, and also women on their own,

20 again separately.

21 Q. Was there a room where the younger women on

22 their own were kept? Was that a separate group?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you in that room or in a different room?

25 A. No. These were women who had very young

1 children, and older children were separately, and then

2 women who did not have any children at all were

3 separated.

4 Q. What group were you with?

5 A. One woman was from my village and the others

6 were from that bus, so I didn't know these women.

7 There was only one from my village that who was with

8 me, one whom I knew.

9 Q. I apologise for not clarifying my question.

10 Let me rephrase it. Was there a room that you were not

11 in, like another room where there were young women in

12 another room?

13 A. Yes. Yes, of course.

14 Q. Did you hear noises during the night?

15 A. I didn't, because we were guarded by the

16 police. Nevertheless, on the next day, I heard that in

17 the room where the younger women were, somebody had

18 barged in, but then the police came after them and took

19 them out quickly.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you sit down,

23 Mr. Ryneveld, I wanted to clear the position of 47, the

24 permit which the witness used to get out. Has it been

25 admitted into evidence?

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Since it's already been given

2 a number. I suppose what I have neglected to do is

3 formally apply to make pre-numbered 47 actually an

4 exhibit in these proceedings. Thank you for bringing

5 that to my attention.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we just have a number

7 formally as an exhibit now admitted into evidence?

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This work

10 permit will bear the number 47 and will be part of the

11 Prosecution evidence, 47A is the English version of the

12 permit.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Since the witness was looking

14 at -- you did say "the copy in your language," which

15 means Serbo-Croat?

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we have the Serbo-Croat

18 version also as B? I just want to be clear so that we

19 know what exactly --

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. For the record, perhaps

21 I will describe what I understand Exhibit 47 to be.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: 47A.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Exhibit 47A, as I understand,

24 is the English translation. It's a-two-page document,

25 the English translation on the first page and the

1 actual certificate in the B/C/S version on page 2. The

2 entire document has now been given the number 47A. Is

3 that the two pieces? Is that correct, or not?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Let the registrar explain.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm confused.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The B/C/S

7 version is the original version and will bear the

8 number 47, and the English version, which is a

9 translation of the original document, will bear the

10 number 47A.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm content with that.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. We can proceed with

13 cross-examination by any of the Defence counsel.

14 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I will start.

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Lopicic:

16 Q. Witness 93, did you give a statement to the

17 investigators of the Tribunal? I apologise. I will

18 repeat my question. Did you give a statement to the

19 investigators of the Tribunal?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I should like to ask the usher to show the

22 witness the statement in the Serbo-Croatian and English

23 versions so that Witness 93 can have a look at it.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the numbers for

25 identification, please?

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This

2 witness's statement will bear number D15, Defence

3 evidence.

4 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is that your statement?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I should like to tender this statement as

8 Defence Exhibit D15.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

10 MR. RYNEVELD: No objection, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the numbers,

12 please?

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is

14 Exhibit D15, Defence evidence.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Now on the record.

16 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did you give any other statements? Did you

18 give any other statements apart from this one that has

19 been shown to you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many?

22 A. Another statement.

23 Q. To whom?

24 A. To the Tribunal.

25 Q. Do you remember when that was, what date?

1 A. I think it was in 1996, but I don't remember

2 the exact date. I think it was the 15th of February,

3 1996.

4 Q. Is that the only other time you talked to the

5 investigators of the Tribunal?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that you lived in the village of

8 Trbusce?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Will you tell me whether there were any

11 Serbian houses in that village?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How many Serbian houses and how many Muslims

14 houses exist in the village?

15 A. Well, the number is about the same. I never

16 counted them, but between 9 and 12. Perhaps a little

17 more. I never actually counted how many.

18 Q. You mean the total number of houses?

19 A. No. Ten to twelve are Muslim and the same

20 number for the Serbian houses.

21 Q. Then you'll agree with me that the ratio was

22 50:50; 50 percent were Muslim houses, 50 percent were

23 Serbian houses?

24 A. I didn't understand your question.

25 Q. Would you agree with me that in your village,

1 there were 50 percent Serbian villagers, 50 percent

2 Muslim villagers; that is to say, half the village was

3 Muslim, half Serb?

4 A. I can't say it is exactly half/half.

5 Q. But it is thereabouts?

6 A. Yes, give or take a house.

7 Q. How did you live with your neighbours before

8 you left the village?

9 A. Well, our life together was super. No

10 differences whatsoever between the different

11 ethnicities. We always had very good relations with

12 our neighbours.

13 Q. Will you agree with me that there were no

14 problems at all before the Serbian soldiers turned up?

15 A. No. There were no problems, quite certainly,

16 before that.

17 Q. When did the Serbian soldiers turn up for the

18 first time?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Wait for the interpreters.

20 They have to pick you up, but they have to finish the

21 witness as well. Yes. You can go ahead.

22 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,

23 Your Honour.

24 Q. When did the Serbian soldiers come for the

25 first time?

1 A. When they came with the buses for the

2 weapons. I don't know exactly the date, but I think it

3 was the middle of April.

4 Q. Before the Serbian soldiers arrived, did you

5 hear that there were any problems between Serbs and

6 Muslims in Bosnia?

7 A. Yes, I did hear about that.

8 Q. What kind of problems?

9 A. Well, quite simply, on the news they said

10 there was ethnic cleansing of Muslim villages. That's

11 the only thing that I heard.

12 Q. Before the Serbian soldiers came, did you

13 hear that there were any problems in Foca?

14 A. Well, I heard shooting and I was quite clear

15 on what was happening, because this went on for a

16 longer period of time, this shooting at Foca.

17 Q. You mentioned that the Serbs rose up against

18 the director of the Focatrans Company. You said that

19 in your statement.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have occasion to see or did you have

22 occasion to hear that?

23 A. Well, I think that those same buses -- that I

24 rode on those same buses. Quite certainly, I did ride

25 on those buses, but I didn't choose the buses that I

1 went on. I didn't really know what was happening

2 there.

3 Q. So you heard, you say, you heard about it?

4 You heard about Focatrans, that the problem was there?

5 A. Yes. I heard that that took place quite a

6 bit before the war broke out.

7 Q. Who told you about the problems in the

8 Focatrans Company?

9 A. Well, quite simply, the workers, because the

10 Serb workers and the Muslim workers worked together,

11 and they heard that worked had been stopped, that they

12 wanted to replace the director, and things like that.

13 Q. As you say you heard this, could you tell me

14 who you heard it from?

15 A. Well, as I say, from the workers, the Muslim

16 workers that worked there. I don't want to mention

17 their names, but they were the Muslim workers that

18 worked there.

19 Q. That particular individual, did they tell you

20 that the Muslim workers went on strike together with

21 the Serb workers of Focatrans?

22 A. No. I think that at first, when the Serbs

23 saw that they could not replace the director, they

24 separated. They no longer wanted to go back to work,

25 although they were invited to do so, and then the buses

1 which they drove came and that's how it all happened,

2 and I'm quite certain about that.

3 Q. Let me tell you. In Focatrans there were

4 Muslim workers and Serb workers; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. They worked together. We all worked

6 together.

7 Q. Do you agree that this strike was not a

8 rebellion on the part of Serbs against the director but

9 it was a rebellion on the part of the Serbs and the

10 Muslims against the director or general manager because

11 they wanted to have higher wages and they thought that

12 the director was not doing a good job in Focatrans?

13 A. Yes, but if there was a crisis, why didn't

14 they replace him? Why did they have to split up?

15 Q. Yes. But what I'm saying is that the Muslims

16 and Serb workers in Focatrans went on strike together.

17 Do you agree?

18 A. Well, I said at the beginning, yes. Yes.

19 That's right. They were together until the Serbs gave

20 up and no longer wanted to go on working, whereas the

21 Muslims did accept the situation and went on working.

22 Q. You say that is what you know as to how the

23 strike ended.

24 A. Well, the strike ended because the Muslims

25 went on working with the same vehicles, whereas the

1 Serbs got some other vehicles to drive.

2 Q. In your statement, you mentioned some Viner

3 buses?

4 A. Well, that was what -- the letters on the bus

5 said "Viner" bus.

6 Q. How do you know?

7 A. Well, I rode that bus. I saw it myself.

8 Q. And did the Serbs drive them?

9 A. Yes, they did.

10 Q. How do you know that they were Serbs?

11 A. When I saw them with my very own eyes. I saw

12 them drive these buses. I rode on these buses and I

13 never differentiated. I never picked which bus I would

14 get on. I would get on the first bus to turn up.

15 Q. Was there anything written up on the buses?

16 A. Well, I said. It said -- what I saw written

17 on the buses was this "Viner" word.

18 Q. Nothing else?

19 A. I don't remember anything else.

20 Q. What about the number plates?

21 A. I don't remember that either. I didn't look

22 at the number plates, because I never ever knew -- I

23 never ever could have supposed anything would happen.

24 Q. Do you know of an event when the Special

25 Police Units of Bosnia-Herzegovina beat citizens up in

1 Foca?

2 A. I don't know that. I'm not aware of that.

3 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us now go back to

4 the particular day when the Serbian soldiers turned up

5 in your village of Trbusce. Do you know what the time

6 was?

7 A. Well, I don't know, but it was before noon.

8 Before 12.00. It was during the day. I don't know the

9 exact time.

10 Q. What did you actually see? Could you

11 describe what you saw, what you personally saw?

12 A. Well, I personally saw -- I was in my house

13 when they came to my house, and I saw all this. They

14 were looking for weapons. I said that they did not

15 search my house and that I didn't have anything in my

16 house, so that they -- well, I have nothing to say. I

17 had no weapons. He said to me, "If you have any

18 weapons, bring them out." I had said, "I have

19 nothing." And I said, "Feel free to search the

20 house." He said, "I won't search your house. If you

21 have anything, give it up. If you do have something

22 and you don't give it up and the others turn up, then

23 you know what to expect."

24 Q. Did you leave your house when the soldiers

25 came?

1 A. Well, I was outside. They found me outside.

2 Q. Where were you?

3 A. Well, I was in my yard.

4 Q. Can you tell me: From that particular spot,

5 what can you see?

6 A. Well, I can see everything around me.

7 Q. What else?

8 A. I can see what's around me.

9 Q. You said in your statement that you

10 recognised some soldiers.

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. How did you know these soldiers?

13 A. Well, I know them very well. I know them

14 very well from before.

15 Q. How do you know them?

16 A. Nicely. I met them around the

17 neighbourhood. They lived there.

18 Q. So that means that these soldiers were your

19 neighbours, does it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many soldiers were there in addition to

22 the soldiers that you recognised?

23 A. Well, I wasn't able to count them. I know

24 that they came by bus and then they went from house to

25 house one by one or two by two, I don't know, but all I

1 know is that they came by bus. Whether that bus was

2 full or not, I don't know.

3 Q. Do you know the type of military uniforms

4 that exist, in general terms?

5 A. Well, I saw camouflage uniforms, and I saw

6 the olive-green/grey uniforms.

7 Q. Did you describe the uniforms that these

8 soldiers wore that day?

9 A. Well, they were mostly camouflage uniforms.

10 Q. You said that the Serbian soldiers came after

11 Foca had been attacked. Who did you hear -- who told

12 you that they had attacked Foca?

13 A. Well, I heard the shooting. I knew that

14 there was nobody else that could do the shooting. Who

15 could else could there be? And the same day that there

16 was shooting in Foca, our Serbian neighbours began to

17 wear uniforms about the village. So it was quite clear

18 to me.

19 Q. So you came to this conclusion yourself, did

20 you?

21 A. Yes. I came to this conclusion and later on

22 saw that it was, in fact, so.

23 Q. But where did you get information on this?

24 You came to this conclusion on your own, do you agree?

25 Did you hear that there was any fighting in Foca?

1 A. Well I just heard weapons firing. Who fired

2 them, I wasn't there to see.

3 Q. Do you know who fought against whom? If

4 there was fighting, then there were two sides.

5 A. Well, I wasn't there, so I say, and I'm not

6 going to say anything that I didn't personally see for

7 myself.

8 Q. So do you agree that that was your

9 conclusion?

10 A. Well, at the time it was my conclusion, and

11 then it proved -- I was proved right.

12 Q. Did you hear that some houses had been burnt?

13 A. Well, no, but I did see some burning, because

14 there was smoke along the Drina River.

15 Q. You said that the Serb soldiers didn't beat

16 or mistreat anybody.

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. When the Serbian

19 soldiers came, what did they say? Why were they

20 looking for weapons? But tell us, please, what you saw

21 and what you yourself heard.

22 A. Well, quite simply, they asked us that

23 surrender any weapons; that's all.

24 Q. Why?

25 A. How should I know why? I have no idea. They

1 just quite simply asked people that turn in their

2 weapons, and the people that had pistols with permits

3 did so.

4 Q. Did you talk that the neighbours after the

5 Serbian soldiers had left? What did you say that your

6 neighbours? What did your neighbours say? Did anybody

7 say they had been beaten?

8 A. Which neighbours?

9 Q. I mean your neighbours; Serbs, Muslims,

10 whatever.

11 A. No. That did not take place in our village.

12 They just rounded us up and took us off.

13 Q. Did you talk that your neighbours about

14 weapons?

15 A. Yes. I heard from my Serb neighbours what

16 I've already stated, and that is that the Yugoslav

17 People's Army had brought weaponry overnight into the

18 Serbian village and that they had distributed the

19 weapons and all the military recruits had had to take

20 them in.

21 Q. Did anybody from the village surrender their

22 weapons?

23 A. I've already said: The pistols that they had

24 with the permits to carry firearms, they had to

25 surrender them, yes; and there were three pistols, and

1 those three pistols were surrendered.

2 Q. Do you know who issued permits for carrying

3 firearms at that time?

4 A. Well, they had the pistols from earlier on.

5 They had the permits for many years.

6 Q. But who issued the permits?

7 A. Well, of course, the Foca police station, the

8 SUP. I never had weapons, so I never dealt with things

9 like that, but I think it was the SUP, the police

10 station that issued permits.

11 Q. You mentioned in your statement the fact that

12 there were other soldiers too. Where were these other

13 soldiers from?

14 A. Well, I don't know. I heard from others that

15 they were mostly neighbours. I told you the ones that

16 I recognised, and I'll be ready that state their names

17 again. What I don't know, I won't say.

18 Q. Who came later on, and who did the control?

19 Who --

20 A. Well, there was nobody else that came in

21 later. We weren't there anymore, so I don't know. I

22 can't answer that question. But throughout the time

23 that we were there, our Serb neighbours came by and

24 walked around the village, and they told us that we can

25 stay, that nothing would happen to us. But afterwards

1 the worst did happen.

2 Q. You, in your statement, on the second page,

3 on page 2, the last paragraph of the Serbian version,

4 said the following, or words to this effect: "At that

5 time the soldiers did not beat any of us. They did not

6 mistreat any of us in any way."

7 Now, in that paragraph you say that "Soldiers

8 later on came one by one, came individually, to control

9 us." What do you mean, "individually"?

10 A. Well, when they took away the weapons, they

11 would pass through the village. Whether they wanted to

12 instil fear in us, I don't know, but I was afraid

13 whenever I would see them passing by.

14 Q. Let us now go back to the events when you

15 heard that Milovan Kolasinac came. Could you tell us

16 who Kolasinac was?

17 A. Who Kolasinac is? Well, everybody knows who

18 Kolasinac is. [redacted]

19 Q. You said in your statement, and today during

20 your testimony to this Tribunal, that there were a lot

21 of Serbian houses in your village as well, that they

22 were roughly 50:50. Now, what about the Serbian

23 neighbours? Were they at home with their families when

24 these soldiers turned up?

25 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know. Well,

1 yes. Yes, they were at home. That was quite natural

2 for them to be there. They had -- they weren't afraid.

3 Q. May we now go back to this man, Kolasinac.

4 Can you tell us who told you that he came and that he

5 did some shooting?

6 A. Well, quite simply, when I -- when he shot,

7 started shooting, I recognised his voice and I heard

8 his own people call out to him, call to him by name.

9 Q. Did you actually see him when the shooting

10 started?

11 A. No. It was night-time. But he shot ten

12 meters away from my house.

13 Q. Well, how do you know that he did the

14 shooting?

15 A. Because I know his voice and I heard his

16 people calling out to him by name, calling him by name.

17 Q. Could it have been somebody else doing the

18 shooting?

19 A. No, there's no other possibility. What I'm

20 saying is the truth, and that's it. That's final.

21 Q. You said you heard him.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You heard his voice?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was it that he was saying?

1 A. He said that we're ustashas and that we

2 should come out of our houses, that he would kill us

3 all. That's what he said.

4 Q. You said that you were ten meters away from

5 him. Do you know why he was shooting?

6 A. Well, he stressed at the time -- how should I

7 put it? He said that around -- that he had been around

8 Tjentiste. He said we were all up there the whole day

9 and they had killed two men up there. That's what he

10 said. I don't know whether it was true or not.

11 Q. Do you agree with me that you did not see

12 Kolasinac in fact; you just heard him?

13 A. Well, I heard him. I recognised his voice.

14 I heard them call out to him: his mother, his brother,

15 the neighbours, everybody called him by name.

16 Q. But you didn't actually see him?

17 A. Well, I couldn't see him because it was

18 night-time.

19 Q. Very well. Let us go back to the particular

20 event when a soldier turned up. It was on the 24th of

21 June, 1992. Do you still say what you said then?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what did he tell you on that occasion?

24 What did he say to you?

25 A. Well, when they were going to expel us from

1 the village, is that the 24th? Is that what you mean?

2 Q. Yes. It begins on page 3, second paragraph,

3 and it states: "On the 24th of June, 1992, I saw a

4 soldier approaching our house."

5 A. Yes. I've already said that once.

6 Q. Did he mistreat you?

7 A. No, he did not.

8 Q. Did he say anything to you?

9 A. No, he didn't say anything. He just said

10 that we should go on off towards the main road.

11 Q. You said that you were taken to Halim

12 Beckovic's house.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many of you were taken there?

15 A. Well, I said that about 15 to 18 women and 4

16 children were taken up. I'm not sure of the exact

17 number of women. That's give or take one or two women,

18 but otherwise that was it.

19 Q. Let us look at page 4 of your statement,

20 where you speak about how the women were taken away.

21 Can you describe to us in greater detail how -- I'm not

22 going to say the name of the individual. It is

23 individual number 1, from Exhibit 182, Prosecution

24 Exhibit 182. It is that person. Do you know who I'm

25 thinking of?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. She told you that she was attacked by a

3 soldier.

4 A. Yes. And I saw him going into her house

5 after her.

6 Q. Can you tell us how this happened in a little

7 more detail?

8 A. Well, there's nothing to say. The woman

9 asked him whether she could go and get some clothing

10 for her children, and she went off. One of them went

11 off after her and I heard the woman scream. And then

12 this other one who was guarding us, I don't know who he

13 was, but he asked who had gone off there, and he sent

14 somebody to have a look. When this other one went

15 inside, he came back with the other one. I don't know

16 either of them.

17 Q. So another soldier, second soldier, saved

18 her, didn't he?

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 Q. Let us now go back to your journey to the

21 Bukovice motel. Can you tell us in a little more

22 detail how you left?

23 A. Well, I've already told you this once. I

24 went in a refrigerator truck, under escort, and in

25 fear.

1 Q. Did anybody mistreat you there, beat you or

2 anything like that?

3 A. Not me personally, no.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. At the motel, the

5 Bukovice motel, were you given any food?

6 A. No, I wasn't.

7 Q. In your statement you said that you left

8 Foca.

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether anybody

11 told you that you had to leave for Montenegro, ordered

12 you to go to Montenegro, or did you wish to do so

13 yourself because you weren't guaranteed your safety?

14 A. Well, of course they told us. They said Foca

15 was Serb, that there was Serbian authority there and

16 that we had to leave, but that they had enabled us to

17 be transferred from Foca.

18 Q. And why did you leave?

19 A. Because we were afraid. The men were taken

20 away. What would we women do there ourselves? And we

21 were already in their hands anyway.

22 MS. LOPICIC: May I have one minute to

23 contact my colleagues to see if there is anything else

24 I need to ask?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MS. LOPICIC: I'm finished with

3 cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel?

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your

6 Honours, I have a few questions, but I don't know that

7 this is the right time, as we're coming up to our 11.00

8 break. So I don't have many questions; just a few.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I also want to find out before

10 we rise whether Mr. Kolesar will have some questions.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: We have come to our break time,

14 and as much as possible, I would like to maintain our

15 schedule. So we'll break up now, come back at 11.30,

16 and then Defence counsel will continue to cross-examine

17 the witness.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.29 a.m.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll continue with

21 cross-examination.

22 Mr. Prodanovic, please.

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

24 Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

1 Q. You said today that [redacted] said to

2 you that the JNA brought weapons to the village, as

3 well as uniforms, and that that is where weapons were

4 distributed, also that they had to take -- could you

5 please tell me what [redacted] name is, [redacted]

6 [redacted] who told you that?

7 A. Nadja Kolasinac.

8 Q. Did he tell you how this was done, given the

9 fact that the village is a mixed village with Serb and

10 Muslim houses?

11 A. On one side of the village are the Serb

12 houses, on the other side are the Muslim houses. He

13 says that during the night, weapons came from the

14 Yugoslav People's Army and that they had to receive it,

15 all those who were military-aged men, that is.

16 Q. Did he tell you or, rather, do you know

17 whether he told anyone else that?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. You are a housewife?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You mention "automatic rifle."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What does that mean, "automatic rifle"?

24 A. Well, that's what I heard from others. They

25 said, "Everybody's carrying automatic rifles."

1 Q. Is that to say that you don't know what an

2 automatic rifle is?

3 A. Well, of course I saw one and I know what it

4 is. Men are knowledgeable in these things. They

5 simply said that they were carrying automatic rifles.

6 Q. Can you describe an automatic rifle to us?

7 A. Well, what do you mean? I think it's not

8 very long, and that's it.

9 Q. Do you know what "automatic" means?

10 A. Well, I don't. That's the only thing I

11 heard, and that's the only thing I saw. I told you

12 that.

13 Q. You said that certain individuals called

14 themselves the Arkan people, the Beli Orlovi, Seselj

15 people. Are these local people and did they call each

16 other that?

17 A. I don't know. I just heard from my

18 neighbours and from neighbouring settlements that they

19 came to them and that that is how they introduced

20 themselves.

21 Q. Can you tell us what kind of an accent the

22 soldiers who arrested you had?

23 A. Well, pure Serbo-Croat accents, those who

24 arrested us.

25 Q. I understand that you understood. Was it the

1 local accent or the one that is spoken in Serbia

2 proper?

3 A. This is the accent that was used locally in

4 our area and our village. I'm not very good at

5 accents, but you should know how people speak in that

6 area.

7 Q. Precisely that's the answer I wished to

8 elicit. Do you know -- I mean, this road that goes

9 below your village to Tjentiste, do you know that there

10 was several incidents on that road where Serbs were

11 killed?

12 A. No. No, I don't know that.

13 Q. My last question: Can you describe the

14 refrigerated truck in which you were taken to Bukovice?

15 A. What do you mean, the colour or what?

16 Q. Yes, because a refrigerator truck is also

17 mentioned in the case of some other witnesses in

18 another place and that's why I'm asking that. I'm

19 wondering if it's the same refrigerator truck.

20 A. If I saw it well, it was white, I think.

21 Q. When you entered the refrigerator truck, when

22 you boarded it, what was inside?

23 A. Well, I saw that there were some wooden

24 planks made of beech wood. They told us we should sit

25 there and there were two soldiers with us. Then they

1 took us to Bukovice.

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

3 further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your

6 Honour. No, as I already said.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. Thank you,

9 Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Bench has no questions

11 either.

12 Thank you very much, Witness, for coming to

13 The Hague and for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You

14 are now free. You can go.

15 THE WITNESS: Can I just ask the Honourable

16 Judges something?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

18 THE WITNESS: I just wanted to say that I

19 came here today because I want to know about the bones

20 of my husband and my daughter. That is what I wish to

21 say to you. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] For the next

25 witness, Your Honour, I think we need to have the voice

1 distortion device implemented, and I think we need a

2 ten-minute break in order to settle the technical

3 problems.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The Judges will

5 leave for ten minutes, and then the technical people

6 will do their work before we return.

7 --- Break taken at 11.37 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.43 a.m.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good morning, Witness.

11 Please make your solemn declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

13 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

14 and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS 51

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Please be seated.

17 Yes. Prosecution can go ahead.

18 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

19 Q. Good morning, Witness.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Before I start the first

21 questions, would the usher please hand a piece of paper

22 to the witness. It's my understanding that you have

23 this piece of paper in front of you, and the Defence as

24 well.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the piece of paper?

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's a sheet which will

2 be entered as Exhibit 183.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Registrar, so it is

4 formally entered as a hundred -- whatever. Please give

5 us the correct name.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This exhibit

7 is marked as Exhibit 183, Prosecution evidence. It's a

8 confidential piece of evidence.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I want to use this paper

10 to avoid names.

11 Q. Witness, if you look in the first line of

12 this sheet of paper, the name next to the number 51, is

13 that your name?

14 A. [No interpretation]

15 Q. And the date next to this, is that your birth

16 date?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you married?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The name next to the number 52 on this sheet

21 of paper, is that the name of your husband?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when you look into the next line, the

24 name next to the number 62, is this the name of your

25 mother?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. There is a name on this sheet without any

3 number. Is that the name of your father?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you have children?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you look at the name next to the number

8 50, is that the name of one of your daughters?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At the time when the events occurred, how old

11 was she?

12 A. She hadn't even turned 17 yet.

13 Q. How old were your other children?

14 A. One was 11, one 7, one 5.

15 Q. What is your ethnicity?

16 A. Muslim.

17 Q. Where did you live before the war?

18 A. Mjesaja.

19 Q. Was she born in that town?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was your profession before the war?

22 A. Housewife.

23 Q. To describe Mjesaja a little bit, how big is

24 it? That means how many houses are there?

25 A. Well, almost 40. Not exactly, but perhaps 35

1 or 36, up to 40. I don't know exactly. Muslim houses.

2 Q. Were there any Serb houses in your village?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How many?

5 A. There were several. We were all there

6 nearby.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not

8 hear the rest of the witness's statement. There is a

9 technical problem.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness try to speak as

11 close to the microphone as possible, please, and let's

12 see whether or not she can be heard.

13 Maybe the usher can assist.

14 THE WITNESS: Can you hear me now?

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter says yes.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17 Q. Would you please repeat what you said last;

18 it wasn't heard.

19 A. There were Serb houses, quite a few of them

20 around us, and my next-door neighbours were Serbs.

21 There were more Serb houses than Muslim houses, but I

22 can't give you the exact number, because I don't know

23 it. There were also other villages around my village.

24 Q. How was the relationship between the Muslim

25 and the Serb villages?

1 A. Before the war they were good.

2 Q. And how many Muslim villagers lived in the

3 village? You named the houses but not yet the number

4 of Muslim villagers.

5 A. About 140, approximately. Perhaps five or

6 six, more or less, but about 140, from the oldest to

7 the youngest.

8 Q. When did the war start in Foca?

9 A. On the 8th of April.

10 Q. When did the war come to your village?

11 A. On the 3rd of July.

12 Q. Where were you at that time?

13 A. I was in the woods.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic?

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do

16 apologise, Your Honour. I've just received information

17 that the accused cannot hear the interpretation.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Could it be the same problem of

19 changing to channel 7 and back? I don't know.

20 Mr. Kunarac, what is the problem?

21 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [Interpretation] Your

22 Honour, on channel number 6 we hear the interpretation

23 of what you say, but then we have to switch to channel

24 7 in order to hear the lady. Could we listen to all of

25 it on the same channel, if possible, so that we would

1 not have to transfer channels?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the registry can give us

3 an answer to that.

4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

5 the technical booth informs me that that is quite

6 impossible. You have to switch channels each time you

7 want to hear that or the other speaker.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm afraid that is the

9 problem. You always have to switch channels because of

10 the technical problem. It's not possible to hear

11 everybody on one channel.

12 Yes, Mr. --

13 THE ACCUSED KOVAC: [Interpretation] Your

14 Honour, at first it was on channel 7, and it was

15 possible, but now all of a sudden we have to transfer.

16 So perhaps could we go back to the original situation

17 we had at the beginning? Yesterday was also that way.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: The problem here is that this

19 is a witness with voice distortion. Whenever we have a

20 witness who has a protective measure for voice

21 distortion, then we have the problem of you, the

22 accused persons, having to switch channels. When the

23 witness is speaking, you've got one channel. When you

24 want to hear what is spoken in other languages, you

25 switch. I'm afraid that can't be altered at all.

1 THE ACCUSED KOVAC: [Interpretation] I know,

2 but five minutes ago, on channel 7, we could hear the

3 translation from English into Serbian, and also this

4 communication in Serbian. Now all of a sudden it

5 disappeared. Thank you.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But just to mention, I

7 have that same problem like the accused. I have to

8 switch also all the time. It's not very comfortable,

9 but I will slow down so that you have no problems to

10 miss anything.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much for your

12 consideration.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But it's my

14 understanding up to now you understood what was asked

15 and what was answered.

16 THE ACCUSED KOVAC: [Interpretation] [No

17 translation]

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay. Then I will

19 proceed.

20 Q. The last thing I asked you is: Where had you

21 been on the 3rd of July when your village was attacked?

22 A. I was in the woods.

23 Q. Why were you in the woods and not at home?

24 A. Because there was shooting. I did not dare

25 stay at home.

1 Q. Since when were you hiding in the woods?

2 A. I was hiding for almost two months.

3 Q. Were you in the woods all the time?

4 A. No. During the day I was at home, and during

5 the night I was in the woods. I would just come home

6 to prepare some bread and food for my children.

7 Q. You said that you heard shooting and that was

8 the reason why you were in the woods. Where did this

9 shooting come from?

10 A. The shooting came from underneath my house.

11 People were passing in cars and shooting every day, and

12 that's why I was afraid.

13 Q. Did the Serb neighbours hide too?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you happen to know why they were not

16 afraid when they heard shooting?

17 A. I don't know. It's probably because they

18 were doing the shooting. So they weren't afraid. They

19 didn't tell us.

20 Q. At the time between the 8th of April and the

21 3rd of July, did you see any soldiers in your village?

22 A. I saw my neighbours pass in cars every day

23 underneath my house. I had to see them.

24 Q. Did your neighbours wear uniforms?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Since when did they start wearing uniforms?

2 A. I don't know exactly. I cannot give you the

3 exact date, but I saw them sometimes in uniform,

4 sometimes in civilian clothes. It depended.

5 Q. The neighbours you mentioned, were they

6 Muslim or Serb neighbours?

7 A. Serbs.

8 Q. Did the Muslims wear uniforms?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Those Serb neighbours wearing uniforms, were

11 they also armed?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What kind of arms did you see?

14 A. I saw rifles. I don't know what they're

15 called. How could I know? I just saw they were

16 rifles. What kind, I don't know.

17 Q. Were the Muslims in your village armed?

18 A. No, because they surrendered their weapons

19 before the war. Perhaps in mid-May weapons were

20 surrendered, even people who had weapons with permits.

21 Everybody had to return their weapons.

22 Q. Who requested them to do so?

23 A. The Serbs. The Serbs asked that the weapons

24 be returned, that they be handed in.

25 Q. Did you observe this handing-in of weapons?

1 A. No, I did not. I was in the village, but I

2 did not go to where they were surrendering weapons. I

3 know where they surrendered weapons, but I wasn't

4 present.

5 Q. Did your own family own weapons and surrender

6 them?

7 A. No. No. My husband had a pistol with a

8 permit, and that's the only thing that we returned. He

9 had a permit for it, a licence. He had all these

10 papers legally.

11 Q. On the 3rd of July, were you hiding alone in

12 the woods or were people with you?

13 A. There were women and children, for the most

14 part, and two men were with us as well.

15 Q. Do you happen to know how many you were

16 altogether?

17 A. Sixteen.

18 Q. Was your husband hiding together with you?

19 A. My husband went to my parents' place. That

20 morning, he was at home, and he went to my parent's

21 place and that's how we split up.

22 Q. Were your parents also hiding in the woods?

23 A. My mother said that they were in the forest

24 too.

25 Q. Were you found on that 3rd of July?

1 A. We were found on the 4th of July.

2 Q. By whom?

3 A. Yes. We were found by [redacted], Novak

4 Gagovic, Nedjo Cosovic, Ranko Cosovic.

5 Q. Were these [redacted] Serbs?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were they in uniform and armed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe their uniforms?

10 A. Well, like military uniforms, like that

11 olive-green colour. I don't know. I'm not

12 knowledgeable in these things. Sort of like military.

13 I don't know. I don't know. Olive-green coloured.

14 Q. Did these Serb [redacted] who found you in

15 the woods, did they mention what was going to happen to

16 you and the other people with you?

17 A. They said that we should come with them, that

18 they would take us to Foca, that there were our people

19 who were there, and then that they would take us to

20 Montenegro.

21 Q. Did you see what your village looked like at

22 that time? Was it changing?

23 A. I saw that my house had been burnt. I

24 couldn't see the other houses. My house is the first

25 next to the asphalt road. Then the village goes

1 upwards. I didn't go up there, but my house had been

2 burnt.

3 Q. Did you see any Serb houses burned as well?

4 A. No. They weren't burnt while I was there,

5 not a single one.

6 Q. Do you happen to know what happened to the

7 group where your husband and parents were hiding?

8 A. I didn't know until I reached my mother.

9 Q. When did you meet your mother again?

10 A. When I was taken away to Foca. I found my

11 mother there.

12 Q. Where exactly was that?

13 A. In the secondary school building in Foca.

14 Q. What did your mother tell you what had

15 happened to her group of people?

16 A. She told me that my father had been killed

17 and that she didn't know what had happened to the other

18 people, that he had been brought there and had been

19 killed.

20 Q. Was your father killed in action in this

21 attack, or was he killed under different circumstances?

22 A. My father was taken away with my mother, and

23 he was the only man there and he was killed. And

24 killed, never to return.

25 Q. But where was he killed? Did you mother tell

1 you where he was killed?

2 A. She told me that he was killed in Buk Bijela,

3 that that's where he was taken and that he never

4 returned. And he's missing to this day, since 1992.

5 Q. Was his body ever found?

6 A. No, never. And it won't ever be found, I

7 don't suppose.

8 Q. Why do you think that?

9 A. Well, I think he was thrown into the River

10 Drina.

11 Q. You said that you were found on the 4th of

12 July. What happened to the men that were in your

13 group?

14 A. The men in our group, they came to get them.

15 Three armed men came to get them, wearing uniforms,

16 with a vehicle, to take them off to the KP Dom in Foca

17 for questioning. They said they had to be taken away

18 for interrogation, but they never returned either.

19 Q. How many men were this? I mean, the Muslim

20 men.

21 A. Two.

22 Q. Can you tell me which age they were?

23 Approximately.

24 A. About 55. They were retired, pensioners.

25 They were about 55 years old, perhaps 60. I don't know

1 exactly, but thereabouts.

2 Q. Did these two men ever participate in any

3 fighting before the war and during the war?

4 A. No, they didn't.

5 Q. Were any other villagers of Mjesaja involved

6 in any fighting or were they Muslim soldiers?

7 A. No. I didn't see anyone. We were all there

8 until the 3rd of July, when we were attacked. We were

9 all there. All of us who were there stayed there.

10 Q. What happened to you and the other women

11 after the men were separated?

12 A. We were taken away to Buk Bijela, and that's

13 where we stayed. We waited for them to take us off to

14 Foca, us women and children.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Before I continue, I

16 would like to have the usher show a photo to the

17 witness. It's Prosecution Exhibit 11, photo number

18 7416. It's a photo already used, but I will give a

19 bigger version. It's the same photo; it's just a

20 bigger version for the witness, to make it easier to

21 show something on it.

22 Q. Is this --

23 A. Buk Bijela. This is Buk Bijela.

24 Q. And where were you taken exactly in this Buk

25 Bijela?

1 A. Here, to these barracks. I don't know which

2 one of them, but to one of these barracks here. That's

3 where we were.

4 Q. Would you please show it on the ELMO so that

5 we can all see what you are pointing at.

6 A. [Indicates] Here, these barracks here.

7 That's where we were. Now, which of these barracks, I

8 don't know exactly, but we were here in these barracks.

9 Q. Thank you. How long did you stay --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic is on his feet.

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

12 we now have a problem with our screen. We cannot see

13 what I assume all the rest of you can see. We have

14 tried to adjust the screen, but haven't been

15 successful. Could the technicians help us, please, for

16 us to be able to participate in the proceedings.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues]

18 ... what was on the ELMO.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's

20 right. I apologise, Your Honour. I didn't

21 understand.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Sometimes it happens in

23 proceedings that counsel may change where they are

24 sitting, because we have some empty, like that one

25 there. It may be necessary. It depends on how

1 important you think it is. So the usher can check the

2 other screens and see which one is working, and then

3 counsel can move.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

5 Your Honours. I don't know whether it will be

6 necessary or not, because I don't know what the

7 Prosecution intends to show. I merely wished to draw

8 the Trial Chamber's attention to this technical

9 difficulty. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You are the Defence

11 counsel, so it's important for you to see these

12 photographs, to follow the witness's evidence. So

13 that's why I asked the usher to check the other

14 screens. I don't know if they are working. Just check

15 them, if they are working. If the ELMO can be picked

16 up from the others, then counsel can move. Because it

17 is important for Defence counsel to follow every bit of

18 the Prosecution case.

19 Yes, that screen can work, Counsel. If you

20 don't mind, you can move there.

21 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic?

22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The accused

23 now tell me that they do not have an image on their

24 screens.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we try and find out from

1 the technical people what the problem is?

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The technical

3 booth tells me, Your Honours, that they are trying to

4 settle the problem. For the moment being, they are

5 working on the transcript, because the interpreters

6 need the transcript in order to follow the debates

7 closely, but as soon as possible they will try to have

8 everyone have access to what is shown on the ELMO.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe counsel can --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, Your

11 Honour, please.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe counsel can leave this

13 bit of the evidence for a later stage.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, of course, Your

15 Honours.

16 Q. The last you said was that you stayed one

17 night at Buk Bijela. Were you questioned while you --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- [Microphone not activated]

20 A. Well, our neighbours came by and told us that

21 somebody would come to collect us and transport us to

22 Foca and that nothing would happen to us, that we had

23 to go, that there was some of our people down there and

24 that we would meet up with them down there.

25 Q. What happened the next morning?

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the

2 counsel.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry.

4 Q. What happened the next morning?

5 A. They came to get us from Foca by bus, to

6 transport us to Foca, and we were questioned there. We

7 had to give our names. My daughter was taken off there

8 too. She was raped there straight away.

9 Q. Let me interrupt you for a second to clarify

10 something. What you now have told us, where did that

11 happen?

12 A. In Buk Bijela. When they came to take us

13 away to Foca by bus, that's where we were. They came

14 to collect us, to transport us, and we had to go out

15 one by one to these soldiers, to state our names and

16 surnames, to go in for questioning. My daughter was

17 taken off for questioning in Buk Bijela, and that is

18 where she was raped.

19 Q. Also, it may be painful for you to talk about

20 this, but I need to go into a little bit more detail.

21 When did those you call "they" come?

22 A. I don't know when they came, what time it

23 was. I didn't have a watch. I didn't even have proper

24 shoes on. I wasn't ready. I wasn't dressed properly

25 in the woods. I don't know what time it was. It was

1 daytime when they came, and I went to another soldier.

2 My daughter was taken to another one for questioning.

3 We were taken to different soldiers. She was raped

4 there. That was the kind of questioning. Then we were

5 all boarded onto buses and taken to Foca.

6 Q. Did you know the person who questioned you?

7 A. I didn't know him before, but when I was in

8 Foca I learnt who he was. Dragan Zelenovic, nicknamed

9 Zelja. He questioned me.

10 Q. What did he question you?

11 A. What my name was, me and my children, where

12 my husband was. He said, "Fuck you. Fuck your

13 mother. Your husband's gone off to fight for Alija and

14 we have to feed you. Tell us where your husband is."

15 I didn't know, so I couldn't say where he was, and

16 that's how it all ended.

17 Q. And your questioning, where did it exactly

18 take place; in one of the barracks there, in one of the

19 rooms?

20 A. That's right, yes; in that compound, in the

21 barracks, in one of the rooms in the barracks during

22 the questioning.

23 Q. You said that your daughter was taken for

24 questioning as well and that she was raped on this

25 occasion. Did you see your daughter being taken?

1 A. Yes, they did.

2 Q. I mean, did you see her being taken away?

3 A. Yes, I did. I did see. I was there when

4 they took her away, but I wasn't with her in the room.

5 Q. When your daughter returned, did she say

6 anything to you, and what did she look like?

7 A. She looked terrible. She was crying. She

8 said, "Why didn't you throw me into the river? Why did

9 you bring me here? Why did you take me with you?

10 What's happened to me?" And I tried to console her. I

11 told her to calm down. "What has happened has

12 happened. What can we do?" That was what it was like.

13 Q. Did she tell you at that time that she was

14 raped?

15 A. Not at that particular moment, but she did

16 tell me when we went to Foca.

17 Q. Did you see the soldiers who took your

18 daughter away for the so-called questioning?

19 A. Yes, I did, but I didn't know them. I'd

20 never seen them before.

21 Q. Would you be able to describe them?

22 A. I don't know how. I've forgotten. I didn't

23 dare look at them, so I don't really know whether I

24 could describe them. It was all so terrible. I didn't

25 dare look, let alone anything else.

1 Q. Did your daughter ever tell you who raped

2 her? Did she ever mention a name?

3 A. Yes, she did. She was raped by Zoran

4 Vukovic.

5 Q. When did she tell you that name?

6 A. She told me when we went to Foca later on. I

7 don't know how much time went by. She was with me very

8 little, so I don't know.

9 Q. When she told you that name, did you know of

10 which person she was speaking?

11 A. Well, I didn't know, because I didn't know

12 him previously. So I didn't know exactly who it was.

13 I saw who came to take us away, but I wasn't able to

14 remember all the faces.

15 Q. After the questioning and after this incident

16 in Buk Bijela, where were you taken?

17 A. They took us to Foca, to the secondary school

18 centre, the secondary school there.

19 Q. Did they take you there right away or did you

20 stop in between?

21 A. No, we didn't stop anywhere. We went

22 straight there.

23 Q. When you arrived at the high school, where

24 were you taken within the high school?

25 A. We were taken to one of the classrooms.

1 Q. When you came to this classroom, were there

2 already other villagers from your village in there?

3 A. Yes, there were. There were other women and

4 children there too.

5 Q. Were there any soldiers at the high school

6 when you arrived?

7 A. Yes, there were some sort of soldiers. I

8 don't know who, but there were some there, yes.

9 Q. What kind of uniforms did they wear?

10 A. Army uniforms, camouflage uniforms. I don't

11 know what they're called, what the uniforms were

12 called, but that's what they looked like.

13 Q. Did you recognise any of these soldiers?

14 A. I recognised Janko Janjic, Tuta. I didn't

15 before that, but when I went there he came there

16 several times later on, so then I realised who he was.

17 He was waiting for us when we arrived at the school

18 building.

19 Q. Did you know him from before the war?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. How then did you get his name?

22 A. Well, I learnt what it was later on when I

23 had been in the school for some time. He would come on

24 many occasions, and people knew his name. They knew

25 who he was.

1 Q. Are you able to describe this person?

2 A. Well, he was of medium height, not very tall,

3 a little plump, like that sort of.

4 Q. Was there anything specific on him that was

5 outstanding?

6 A. Yes. He had tattoos on him. He was all

7 tattooed, and he was also armed. He looked terrible,

8 terrifying to look at.

9 Q. When you arrived at the school, were you

10 afraid?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. What did you fear would happen?

13 A. Well, we were afraid. We wondered whether we

14 would ever get out of there alive, whether they were

15 going to mistreat us, whether we were going to be taken

16 away and raped and interrogated. We were afraid of

17 everything.

18 Q. What reason did you have to fear something

19 like this?

20 A. Well, we had reason. As we'd been brought

21 there, the women that we came across told us that they

22 were being taken away and raped and brought back. So

23 we heard this straight away, and we thought this would

24 happen to us, which, in fact, it did happen.

25 Q. Did you also hear something like this in the

1 media, that things like this happened in other places

2 within Bosnia?

3 A. Well, I heard on the news what was going on,

4 that it was war, that people were being killed, these

5 people, those people. That's what I heard on the

6 radio, nothing else. I'm a housewife. All I did was

7 work in my home, look after my children, that kind of

8 thing.

9 Q. How long did you stay in the high school?

10 A. Well, I don't know. About 10 to 15 days.

11 Perhaps about 15 days. I'm not quite sure exactly.

12 Ten to 15 days. I think it was 15 days, that's how

13 long.

14 Q. How many people were with you in that

15 classroom?

16 A. About 50 people.

17 Q. All women and children and all from your

18 village?

19 A. No. They weren't all from our village.

20 There were other women from other places whom I didn't

21 know before the war, and there was an old man there, an

22 elderly man there with us.

23 Q. How were the living conditions in the

24 school? Did you have beds?

25 A. The living conditions were very poor. There

1 were no beds. We had nothing to cover ourselves with.

2 We had no hygiene facilities.

3 Q. What about the food?

4 A. On the first two or three days it was a bit

5 better, but later on it was no good at all.

6 Q. Were you guarded while in the high school?

7 A. There were always some of them there. There

8 was always somebody there. They would come and go.

9 They would bring in women and girls, take them off.

10 Q. Were there any guards there to protect you?

11 A. No. Nobody protected us.

12 Q. Would it have been possible for you to leave

13 the school on your own?

14 A. Well, we couldn't leave because there was

15 always somebody there, and we wouldn't know where to

16 go. We couldn't get out of Foca alone. Where would we

17 go? It was a difficult situation already. There was

18 no transport. How could I leave on my own?

19 Q. Those people who were with you in the

20 classrooms, were they all Muslims and were they all

21 civilians?

22 A. Yes, they were. They were all Muslims and

23 they were all civilians.

24 Q. Did you see any -- how many soldiers did you

25 see at this school, can you tell?

1 A. I can't actually say. I saw a lot of them.

2 I can't say how many.

3 Q. Were they all Serb soldiers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You mentioned that soldiers came in the night

6 and took women away. We need to go into more details.

7 How often did something like this happen?

8 A. I can't even explain this to you. It

9 happened many times. Usually during the night they

10 were invariably taken out, two or three, depending on

11 which group, but I can't tell you exactly how many

12 times, but quite a few times they were taken away.

13 Q. Except for taking away women, did anything

14 happen to the men?

15 A. Yes. This old man who was with us, he was

16 beaten and even his face was cut with a knife from

17 where his eye was towards his ear. He was an old man,

18 about 70, and his wife also. Both were beaten.

19 Q. Why? Was there any reason for this?

20 A. I don't think there was a reason. I don't

21 know what the reason could be. They were forcing him

22 to say where his sons were, and the old man said, "I

23 don't know." They were found in their home and brought

24 in there, and that's what they told us. That's why he

25 was mistreated.

1 Q. Do you know who did that? Did you recognise

2 the person who did it?

3 A. He was beaten by Dragan Zelenovic, called

4 Zelja. He beat him. And he asked him, "Where are your

5 sons? I was at Vukovar. My friend got killed there

6 and I'm alive." That's what he told him, and then he'd

7 start to beat him. And then he would say, "I don't

8 know where they were," and then he'd start beating

9 him. He kicked him with his boot into his nose and

10 then his nose was bleeding, and then he also kicked his

11 wife once.

12 Q. Now, before I go to the next question, I

13 would like to ask the usher to give another sheet to

14 the witness, and it's the list marked as Exhibit 184.

15 This should be in front of the Judges and the Defence

16 counsels as well.

17 Could it be registered as an exhibit?

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This list

19 will be Exhibit 184, Prosecution evidence, and it is

20 now confidential evidence which is admitted into the

21 file.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23 Q. Witness, you mention that women were taken

24 out frequently.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can you tell us which women? And please

2 don't state names, just give me the numbers. You have

3 that sheet with the names and the numbers on it. Would

4 you please give me the numbers of those who were taken

5 out?

6 A. Number 50, that person was taken out. Number

7 95, number 189, number 75, and over here there is only

8 DB. That person was taken out as well. And number 87

9 as well, and person number 48, and number 105. Also

10 person number 88. Those persons were taken out.

11 Q. From the high school? We are talking now

12 about the high school only. We'll come to the other

13 section later on.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you see those women return?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How much later was that usually? Was it

18 shortly after or longer periods?

19 A. Some would stay the entire night; some would

20 stay three days; some would stay three or four hours.

21 It depended. All of them stayed for longer periods of

22 time.

23 Q. When they came back, in what state were

24 they?

25 A. In a terrible state. They were crying. They

1 were moaning, wondering what they would do. They were

2 in a terrible state, and they looked awful. Some were

3 beaten; others were not. At any rate, all of them were

4 in a terrible state.

5 Q. Do you perhaps recall in which state 75 was?

6 A. I do recall. Person number 75, when she

7 returned -- this was at the high school. Are we going

8 to talk about the high school?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Person number 75, when she returned while we

11 were at the high school, when they brought her back to

12 the door, when she got in, she fell on the floor. She

13 started to scream and cry. Her nose started bleeding

14 and it was very hard for the bleeding to stop. She had

15 bled profusely. That's what she looked like. She was

16 in a terrible state.

17 Q. Was your daughter taken out from the high

18 school classroom as well?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I know that it's very painful for you, but

21 would you please describe it a little more detailed?

22 A. My daughter was taken out also several times,

23 once also at the high school. Once she was beaten.

24 Why, she didn't know; she just said she was beaten.

25 She was taken out on several nights. What more can I

1 tell you?

2 Q. Did she tell you what happened to her?

3 A. She could not always tell me. I knew that --

4 I knew when she would come, even if she would not tell

5 me what had happened to her. I could tell by the way

6 she looked.

7 Q. After this time in the high school, where

8 were you taken then?

9 A. The Partizan. To Partizan, the Partizan

10 Sports Hall. That's what it was called.

11 Q. How were you taken there?

12 A. First, two or three women were sent out there

13 to clean up. That's what they said. And then we went

14 in a vehicle that was covered by tarpaulin. That's how

15 we got to the school. No, not to the school, I'm

16 sorry; to Partizan.

17 Q. Before you were taken there, did someone tell

18 you where you were taken next, and for how long?

19 A. Nothing. We were just told that we had to

20 move from here to there, that we could not stay there

21 any longer, that we were supposed to move from that

22 place to another one, and for how long, nobody told

23 us. Nobody told us where or for how long.

24 Q. Did soldiers accompany you to the Partizan?

25 A. They were driving the vehicle. We were in

1 the back, covered with a tarpaulin. That was it. In

2 front of Partizan they unloaded us and they said that

3 we would stay there, and that's it.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I would

5 like to use now two photos, but I wonder if this

6 technical problem is solved in the meanwhile. We can

7 try and find out, but if you like, I can also do it at

8 the end, so I wonder.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's try and see whether it

10 can be picked up on the ELMO by the accused persons as

11 well.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would the usher please

13 give this photo to the witness. It's Prosecution

14 Exhibit 11, photo 7302. We have already had this photo

15 in evidence. It's just a blow-up of it, to make it

16 easier to look at it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher also check with

18 the accused persons, please.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher check with the

21 accused persons, to see whether or not --

22 You have it? Yes. Okay.

23 Things are now okay. Counsel can proceed.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

25 Q. Is this a photo of Partizan?

1 A. This is Partizan, this over here [indicates].

2 Q. You have to point it out on this machine

3 there next to you, not on the monitor, please.

4 A. This, this is Partizan. This is where we

5 were locked up [indicates]. That is where we stayed

6 for the rest of the time when we were transferred from

7 the school, in this building here.

8 Q. And where exactly were you in this building?

9 Can you point it out? You have only the outside, but

10 maybe it's possible.

11 A. This is the door [indicates], and we were all

12 inside, over here [indicates]. One goes in through

13 this door, and this is where we all were, right over

14 here [indicates]. When you get in through this door,

15 that's where you stay -- that's where we stayed.

16 Q. There is this little building attached to the

17 hall. What is this?

18 A. Yes. I don't know what it was. Inside there

19 were some kind of chairs, sort of like a cafe. I have

20 no idea what it was before.

21 Q. Did you --

22 A. We were not in the small building; we were in

23 there.

24 Q. Yes, that's understood, but did you ever

25 enter this small building as well?

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, may we just interrupt

2 the proceedings? The blinds at the back are being

3 drawn down because counsel have to sit there, and I'm

4 afraid these lists can be seen by the people in

5 the gallery. So we just have to drop the blinds where

6 counsel is sitting. Then we proceed.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

8 Q. Did you understand my question? Did you ever

9 go into the small room, into the small building

10 attached?

11 A. Yes. Yes, I did go in there. I would hide

12 sometimes. I would hide so that I would not be taken

13 away, things like that.

14 Q. When you arrived in Partizan --

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, sorry. I have to

16 show another photo as well. It's the Prosecution

17 Exhibit 11, number 7295, and this time it's not a

18 blow-up; it's just the version you all have.

19 It has to be placed different. The two

20 buildings on the left -- on the right side, sorry, on

21 the right side, have to be in focus.

22 Q. Can you tell me which buildings you see on

23 this photo?

24 A. This is where Partizan was, and this is where

25 the SUP was. It was nearby in Foca, Partizan and the

1 SUP. That's what I can tell you. Where we were and

2 where the SUP was, that's how far we were.

3 Q. Thank you. When you arrived at Partizan,

4 were soldiers present there?

5 A. Three of our women were there, the ones who

6 were taken beforehand to clean up. When we arrived in

7 Partizan, these soldiers brought us and we stayed

8 there. Others came immediately to guard us. They were

9 not guarding us in the sense of taking care of us, but

10 that's what we were told.

11 Q. These people guarding you, were they in

12 soldier uniforms or did they have a different uniform?

13 A. They had these police-like uniforms. They

14 had uniforms like that. They had army uniforms too.

15 Q. Were these persons armed?

16 A. Yes. Yes, always. They would never come

17 unarmed. That's the way they always were.

18 Q. We are always talking "they" and we are

19 always talking "soldiers," but would you tell me which

20 ethnicity were these people?

21 A. Serb ethnicity.

22 Q. When you came to Partizan, in what condition

23 was Partizan?

24 A. The glass was broken. I don't know. It was

25 awful. There was also some destruction around.

1 Actually, before I had never entered Partizan. This

2 was the first time I actually went in. It was

3 shattered, awful. We found four or five gym mats. We

4 slept on them. That was our bed and everything.

5 Q. How was the food?

6 A. Awful. We'd get half a jar of some kind of

7 soup and a slice of bread. We never got any cutlery,

8 any spoons or forks or knives. We would drink this

9 soup from these glass jars or whatever we got.

10 Q. Was the food sufficient to feed everybody?

11 A. No, it was not sufficient.

12 Q. Did that affect in any way the health,

13 especially of the children?

14 A. Yes, of course it affected them. My child

15 got ill and barely survived because of the food. It

16 affected all of us, actually, not only the children.

17 It affected all of us.

18 Q. How was the sanitary situation in the

19 Partizan?

20 A. It was awful. We had nothing, nothing. We

21 didn't have shampoo, we didn't have soap, we didn't

22 have toothpaste. We never had anything. We didn't

23 have any sanitary facilities, any toiletries, nothing.

24 Q. What about your clothing? Did you have

25 clothes to change?

1 A. We did not have any clothing. We wore the

2 clothes that we brought in. We spent our time wearing

3 those same clothes.

4 Q. You mentioned the guards that were guarding

5 you. Did they ever protect you in any way?

6 A. No way, never. Whoever wanted to come in

7 could take out a woman, a girl, whoever they wanted to.

8 Q. Were you allowed to leave the Partizan?

9 A. We were not allowed. We had no place to go

10 either. We had no money. We had nothing. Nor did

11 anyone tell us that we could leave.

12 Q. You have already indicated that women were

13 taken out from Partizan as well. Were they taken out

14 as often as in the high school?

15 A. Yes. Some were taken out who were never

16 returned until we left. Before we left Partizan, some

17 women were taken out, and they were not returned until

18 we left Partizan, so we didn't actually see them again.

19 Q. Except for this incident -- we are talking

20 about this later -- but were the women taken out every

21 night?

22 A. Yes, every night. Every night someone was

23 taken out. There was never any peaceful sleep, or

24 could one sit in peace or eat in peace. There was

25 never any peace for us.

1 Q. How did the men who took the women out select

2 the women?

3 A. Some by name, and others were pointed at.

4 They would point their finger at them and say, "You,

5 you, you." And some were addressed by name. That's

6 how they were chosen, and then they were taken away.

7 Q. Those who took women out, were they soldiers,

8 and were they armed?

9 A. They were always in uniform, and they were

10 always armed.

11 Q. Were you taken out yourself?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did this happen?

14 A. I don't know. I can't tell you the exact

15 date when this happened, but I was taken out in the

16 evening, and I was returned in the morning.

17 Q. Was this in the beginning of your time in

18 Partizan or was it more to the end?

19 A. Well, perhaps around the middle of my stay

20 there, around the middle of the time that I spent in

21 Partizan.

22 Q. And who took you out of Partizan?

23 A. Panto is his nickname. They called him

24 Panto. There were two other soldiers with him. I

25 don't know their names. That's the only thing I know,

1 that his nickname is Panto. I never found out his real

2 name.

3 Q. Can you describe this Panto?

4 A. He looked young, very young. Perhaps 20 or

5 22 years old, something like that. He looked very

6 young. His hair was on the longish side. He also had

7 a ponytail at the time when he took me out.

8 Q. Without saying any names, just can you tell

9 us if you were taken out alone or together with others,

10 and if so, are those others on the list in front of

11 you?

12 A. I was not taken out alone. There were two

13 other persons with me. They are on this list that is

14 in front of me. That is person number 189 and number

15 87. They were with me that night.

16 Q. Where were you taken?

17 A. We were taken to a house opposite the bus

18 station. We were there in a house. I don't know whose

19 house it is. It was empty. There was no one there at

20 the time. That's it.

21 Q. Were you raped on this occasion?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. By how many men?

24 A. Two.

25 Q. Was this Panto one of them?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What happened to the two other women who were

3 taken at that same time?

4 A. They were in other rooms. One of the men

5 would take one woman, the other man would take another

6 woman, and the third man would take the third woman.

7 That's it. Then they would take turns, and then they

8 would, for example, return me and take another woman

9 and like that.

10 Q. Did the other two tell you what happened to

11 them afterwards? Did they also tell you that they were

12 raped?

13 A. Yes. They told me, and I told them. They

14 said they were also raped in the other rooms, just as I

15 was, yes.

16 Q. When did you return to Partizan?

17 A. We returned in the morning, at daybreak.

18 Q. How did you get there? Did you walk or were

19 you driven?

20 A. We walked. We went on foot. We were taken

21 out and told to go.

22 Q. Does that mean you went back alone?

23 A. Alone, yes. Yes. They took us out and they

24 told us that we had to return to where we had been

25 before. So we went on our own.

1 Q. Why did you return and not flee?

2 A. Where would I flee? My children were there.

3 Q. Did the other two women also have children?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you taken out more often or was that the

6 only occasion?

7 A. That was the only time I was taken, but these

8 other women who were with me were taken out more

9 often.

10 Q. Was your daughter also taken out?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Once or more often?

13 A. More often. Once they took her away and they

14 brought her back to me on the third day.

15 Q. You have, in relation to the high school, you

16 have pointed out women who were taken out for rape or

17 taken out from the list. Would you also tell me who

18 was taken out from Partizan? Do you find any names

19 here on the list of women who were taken out from

20 Partizan?

21 A. Just a moment. Person number 50 was taken

22 out; person number 95 was taken out; person number 189

23 was taken out; person number 75 was taken out; person

24 number or, rather, marked by letters DB was taken out;

25 person number 87 was taken out; person number 48 was

1 taken out; person number 105 was taken out; and person

2 number 88 was taken out.

3 Q. Besides those listed, were other girls and

4 women taken out which are not on the list? Please

5 don't tell us the name, just the number, I mean, how

6 many.

7 A. There were others also. I remember there was

8 another woman, one more woman that was taken out -- I

9 remember that -- but she's not on the list. That's all

10 I remember. I see that yet another woman is missing

11 here from this list, another woman who was taken out.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, would you please

13 give the witness --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, time.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, but

16 could we just let the witness write down the two names

17 so that we can leave this point after this?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20 Q. Two names. Would you please write them down

21 here.

22 A. [Witness complies]

23 Q. But this is only one name. You said there

24 were two. You remember two.

25 A. No. No. No. I don't know. I don't know

1 anyone else. I just remember this one woman who is not

2 on this list here and who I remember being taken out.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Could we have this as

4 the Prosecution exhibit, the next one, and just for

5 everyone to know, this is number 90 of the witnesses

6 from the Prosecution. The Defence should have the name

7 of the witness number 90.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This sheet

9 bearing the name of the victim will be Prosecution

10 Exhibit 185. It is a confidential piece of evidence.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall now break for lunch

13 and continue this afternoon at 1430 hours.

14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are proceeding with

3 cross-examination.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I have not

5 yet finished.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I saw Mr. Kolesar standing up.

7 Mr. Kolesar, yes, anything you want to say?

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

9 have been asked on behalf of the three accused, and on

10 behalf of the Defence of the three accused, to express

11 my concern over the technical problems that have been

12 accompanying our work yesterday and today.

13 The Defence has agreed to the proposal made

14 by the Prosecution that protection be provided for the

15 witnesses, and especially for the victims, and the

16 Defence counsel fully agree with that. However, we

17 should like to say that the accused must be enabled, to

18 the maximum possible degree, to follow the proceedings

19 at all times. That is to say that they can have good

20 conditions to follow the proceedings. The technical

21 difficulties that have arisen make this no longer

22 possible.

23 If they have to keep their hands and fingers

24 on the switchboard and keep switching keys, this is a

25 great problem, particularly with the accused,

1 Mr. Kunarac, who is left-handed. That is to say, when

2 he writes, he has to use both hands, because of the

3 injuries sustained to one of his hands. So I should

4 kindly like to request that more vigorous measures by

5 taken by the technical booth to do away with these

6 technical difficulties, especially as we are coming to

7 a series of witnesses who were victims and who will be

8 protected in the same manner as the witness who is here

9 before us this afternoon.

10 That is one problem, Your Honours.

11 Secondly, when we came to this courtroom in

12 the lunch break, the representatives were not --

13 authorised representatives were not able to have

14 contact with the accused. According to the Detention

15 Centre and the schedule of the Detention Center, we

16 have visits on Monday and Tuesday from 7.00 to 7.30,

17 and Friday mornings we are allowed this in the

18 Detention Centre. We consider that that is not

19 sufficient time for us to hold contacts with the

20 accused, our clients, especially as we now are not able

21 to meet with them during the lunch break.

22 What I have just asked the Trial Chamber, I

23 shall be asking in writing of the Registry, either to

24 enable us to have contacts with the accused during the

25 lunch break, or enable us to have visits outside the

1 terms that have been accorded to us in the Detention

2 Unit. And I merely wish to present our concern over

3 these matters and to inform the Trial Chamber of these

4 problems. Thank you, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: First of all, on the channels,

6 maybe we can have a word from the Registrar. Any

7 comments?

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, it's

9 true. At the moment it is not possible for the accused

10 to listen to the proceedings without switching channels

11 between answers and questions. The technicians are

12 currently working very hard on this problem in order to

13 solve them in the future. They are currently working

14 on it, and I hope that very soon the accused will be

15 able to listen on one channel to the voice of the

16 witness.

17 Now, about the screen and when we look at the

18 ELMO, this has been resolved during the lunch break.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: So it appears that from the

20 explanation of the registry and the people dealing with

21 the equipment, for the moment the accused have to

22 switch channels. We sympathise with Mr. Kunarac, but I

23 do hope that the technicians will work over this

24 quickly. The only solution is to ask counsel and the

25 witness to speak slowly, to allow time for switching

1 and also to allow Mr. Kunarac not to be unduly

2 pressurised in using his injured hands. At the moment

3 that's all we can do.

4 After the proceedings we'll find out whether

5 it is possible to switch to another courtroom. Maybe

6 things may be better there. I don't know. But the

7 registry will try to explore every possibility.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I would like

9 to remind everyone that next week we will be in

10 courtroom 1, and at the moment in courtroom 1 we don't

11 have any problem of that kind. But as far as changing

12 courtrooms this week, I think it will be very

13 difficult, considering the number of cases currently on

14 trial and the number of accused in these trials.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Regarding the second problem,

17 that is, if the Defence counsel visits to the accused

18 in the detention chamber and also during lunch break,

19 they have to make applications to lift the limitations,

20 to the Registrar. If they are not satisfied with the

21 Registrar's decision, they can appeal to the

22 President. Notwithstanding that, this Trial Chamber is

23 in charge of the trial proceedings. And only if all

24 that fails, then they may come back to the Trial

25 Chamber.

1 In the meantime, the Trial Chamber will also

2 make inquiries as to whether or not anything can be

3 proved, but the Defence counsels should be the first

4 ones to make applications for whatever they want.

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

6 Honour. Yes, I did say that in addition to what I have

7 said here that I will apply to the Registry, and I hope

8 this matter will be regulated shortly. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: We may proceed.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

11 Q. Before the lunch break, the last thing we did

12 is that you pointed out the numbers or initials of

13 victims from Partizan, and you also wrote down an

14 additional name.

15 I saw that among those you listed was number

16 50. That's your daughter?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was your daughter taken out often?

19 A. Yes, she was, often. As I've already said,

20 she was taken off and brought the third day.

21 Q. When she was taken out, was she called out by

22 her name or was she only pointed out, as you explained

23 here before?

24 A. She was called out by name. On one occasion

25 I had to call her to come out of the lavatory, because

1 a group had come to take her off and they called her

2 out by name. They told me that I had to find her, that

3 they would kill me and slit my throat if I didn't find

4 her. So I had to go to the lavatory to call her, and

5 they took her away and only brought her back on the

6 third day.

7 Q. Do you recall when that happened, this

8 incident?

9 A. I don't remember the exact date. I can't

10 tell you what date it was, but that's what happened.

11 When they brought her back, she was in a terrible

12 state, to be pitied. She was crying and to look at

13 her, she looked absolutely awful.

14 Q. How did you feel when you had to bring your

15 daughter out of the toilet to this soldier?

16 A. Well, you can imagine how I felt. I felt

17 awful, dreadful. I cried, I tore my hair out, but

18 there was nothing I could do. I had to call her out,

19 because I was forced to. What can I say? That's how

20 it was.

21 Q. If I understood you correctly, was that the

22 occasion when she returned only three days later or

23 this incident with hiding in the toilet, was that a

24 different occasion?

25 A. When I called her out of the lavatory, I

1 don't know. I don't think that was the three-day

2 incident, but later on they came to fetch her again and

3 took her away. But those three days were the

4 longest -- was the longest time she spent away from

5 me. I didn't know whether she was alive or dead,

6 whether she would ever come back.

7 Q. This three-day incident, do you recall if

8 that was in the beginning of your stay in Partizan or

9 was it more to the end?

10 A. I think it was in the first half of our stay

11 at Partizan. I don't know the exact dates, nor can I

12 remember them from all the problems and crying and

13 sorrow that I have experienced.

14 Q. On that occasion when she was brought back

15 only after three days, was she taken alone or was she

16 taken together with other girls or women?

17 A. She told me that during that time she was

18 alone, that they took her away, that there were other

19 people of ours there, but they took her away alone.

20 Four kilometres away from Foca they took her off.

21 That's what she told me, that she was in that place

22 four kilometres away.

23 Q. But when she was taken and the moment she was

24 taken from Partizan, was she taken alone at that moment

25 or was she taken away together with others?

1 A. I don't know. I can't remember. I don't

2 know that. I had to go and call her to come out. I

3 was crying. So I don't remember. I don't know whether

4 she was alone or with anybody else. I really can't

5 say.

6 Q. Were any other girls or women taken out and

7 not returned that same night?

8 A. Yes. Another girl was taken away. I know

9 for sure about that one, but I don't know about the

10 rest.

11 Q. Did any girls -- were any girls taken out and

12 did not return at all?

13 A. Yes, there were. Girls were taken away

14 before we arrived, and they never returned throughout

15 the time that we were there. We left but they were

16 still there.

17 Q. Would you please look at your list and tell

18 me which girls were taken out and did not return?

19 A. Number 75. The girl under number 75 was

20 taken out, never to return. Then the DB girl was taken

21 away and wasn't brought back. Number 87, that girl was

22 taken away and never brought back.

23 Q. Do you recall when they were taken away?

24 A. I don't know exactly when they were taken

25 away, but they were taken away at least ten days before

1 we left, at least ten days before our own departure

2 from Partizan. They were taken away and never returned

3 while we were there. So we left without them ever

4 having been returned. They were still away somewhere.

5 Q. Did you learn afterwards where they were

6 taken?

7 A. No. We didn't know where they were. We knew

8 they had been taken off. We waited for them to return,

9 but they didn't come back, and that's how it was. One

10 of them was away for eight months and then got out. As

11 to the others, I don't know.

12 Q. Did you see the soldiers who took out these

13 three girls after which they never returned?

14 A. I looked at all the soldiers, but I don't

15 actually know any of them, so I couldn't say who they

16 were. But I would see them taking the girls away and

17 so on. I was there all the time, but as I didn't know

18 anybody personally, I couldn't say who they were, but

19 they were soldiers. The soldiers took them away, and

20 would bring them back or not. These girls were never

21 returned.

22 Q. Did you recognise any, any of the soldiers at

23 all? I mean, from all the soldiers that took out

24 whatever women, did you recognise any? Did you know

25 any of them from before?

1 A. No, I didn't know any of them from before,

2 but I saw the ones I knew, and they came later. Those

3 same ones came back and took girls and women off.

4 Q. Can you tell me the names of these soldiers?

5 A. Well, Dragan Zelenovic would come, and then

6 there was Janko Janjic. I knew them. I got to know

7 them in Foca. And Janko would come frequently, many

8 times, and he took off women and girls.

9 Q. Do you happen to know Dragan Gagovic?

10 A. I did not know him personally, but he would

11 come too and take women away. He would make out papers

12 for us to leave for Skopje when our departure came

13 round. It was his signature on the piece of paper

14 which was to take us to Skopje, so that's where I met

15 him, in Foca.

16 Q. What was his position in Foca; do you know

17 that?

18 A. He was the chief of the SUP. He wore that

19 uniform, the SUP uniform. And as the police chief, he

20 was there. That's what we heard, at least, while I was

21 there. I don't really know. But he issued these

22 permits for us, allowing us to leave when the time came

23 for us to leave.

24 Q. And did you personally see him take a woman

25 or women out of Partizan?

1 A. Yes, I did. I personally saw him take away a

2 woman who was with me.

3 Q. Can you give out the number of this woman?

4 A. Number 48, and he took her away personally.

5 He himself took her off.

6 Q. And did 48 ever mention where she was taken

7 and what happened to her?

8 A. She told me that they had taken her away to a

9 house, a Muslim house, and that she was raped there.

10 That's what she told me. I know which house she was

11 taken to. I know where the house is.

12 Q. How do you know this house?

13 A. Well, I know that house because [redacted]

14 [redacted].

15 I know the house.

16 Q. Do you know the address of the house?

17 A. I don't know the address, but I know where it

18 is situated. I really don't know the address, but I do

19 know where the house is to be found.

20 Q. And where is it situated?

21 A. The house is situated in Sukovac, which is

22 near Foca. Sukovac, near Foca.

23 Q. You mentioned a few names of soldiers who

24 took women out. Do you happen to know any nicknames of

25 soldiers who took women out?

1 A. Well, I do know the nicknames. Dragan

2 Zelenovic's name was Zelja; Janko Janjic, his nickname

3 was Tuta. I know those nicknames. And I said before

4 that the one who took me away, I know his nickname too.

5 Q. Did you ever hear the nickname Zaga?

6 A. I have heard the nickname Zaga, yes.

7 Q. In which context did you hear this nickname?

8 A. The woman talked about this man nicknamed

9 Zaga. I didn't know about that, but I heard women and

10 girls talking about this man whose nickname was Zaga.

11 Q. What did they say about this man?

12 A. Well, they said the same thing: that he had

13 taken away women and did to them what the others did.

14 Everybody knows why the women and girls were taken

15 away, the reason they were taken off: to rape them, to

16 abuse them, mistreat them, that kind of thing.

17 Q. Do you recall which women mentioned Zaga?

18 Don't say the names. If you know, then just tell us

19 the numbers.

20 A. I can just tell you about one particular

21 girl. I know that she mentioned him. But I don't know

22 the others. I don't know who they were. But I can

23 tell you about this one girl that mentioned him.

24 Q. What is her number?

25 A. Number 75.

1 Q. What did she tell you about Zaga?

2 A. She said that it was common knowledge that he

3 came there and took women away, that this was what was

4 talked about. And I've already said ten times why

5 these women and girls were taken off: they were taken

6 off to be raped, to be mistreated, and so on.

7 Q. Are you able to describe this person Zaga?

8 A. I can't describe him, because I don't know.

9 I would like to know. I would like to have known, but

10 I didn't know him. I didn't know many people before,

11 and I can't -- all I can say is -- I can say that I

12 know my neighbours, but I didn't know many other

13 people.

14 Q. If I know ask you -- I will now ask you to

15 look around in the courtroom, and would you please tell

16 us if you see anybody here in this courtroom you saw in

17 Foca?

18 A. The first man sitting in front from down

19 there, from the beginning down there. I know his

20 face. I know that I have seen him before somewhere.

21 Q. When you say "the first man," from the right

22 or from the left side?

23 A. Looking at him from me, from where I am, he's

24 on the right, when I turn round towards them like

25 this.

1 Q. You say you have seen him. When did you see

2 him?

3 A. I don't know when I saw him, but I know his

4 face. His face is familiar, as if I have seen him

5 before, yes.

6 Q. Did you see him at Buk Bijela?

7 A. I don't know where. I know his face, I know

8 I've seen him before, but I don't know where I saw

9 him. I saw him somewhere.

10 Q. Do you have -- you don't know his name, I

11 understand.

12 A. I don't know his name.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, before we proceed,

14 according to your understanding of what the witness has

15 said about whom he has seen before, who is it, so that

16 we're clear.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: You mean who she's

18 pointing to? She's pointing to -- as I understand,

19 she's pointing to the accused Zoran Vukovic.

20 Q. You have mentioned Zoran Vukovic. You have

21 mentioned him, that he raped your daughter in Buk

22 Bijela.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. She didn't mention

24 the name. The witness said one of the people, if she's

25 facing them on the right, one of the accused persons on

1 the right she saw in Foca. That's all she said.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But I didn't really --

3 oh, you only wanted to know --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, which one.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, I understood you can

6 see him and you know who he is.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry. I totally

9 misunderstood.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

12 I object and would like to move for this section of the

13 transcript to be struck, because we consider that this

14 was a highly leading question, highly suggestive and

15 leading with regard to identification, because the

16 witness did not mention any name and surname, and now

17 it is stated that the witness said that on this

18 occasion, which she did not.

19 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The objection of the

21 Defence is upheld. What we wanted to find out, because

22 the witness said if she were facing them, it would be

23 the one sitting on the right, as the man she used to

24 see in Foca, all right? Now, she didn't mention any

25 name, so what we want to know is which one she is

1 talking about, because in different courtrooms we may

2 change positions. So at the time that she has said the

3 one sitting on her right, if she were facing them, or

4 whichever she said, that's the person we want to know.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Then I totally

6 misunderstood the situation. I thought it was obvious

7 who was meant.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. She didn't mention any

9 name.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, of course, of

11 course, she did not mention it at all. I thought it

12 was obvious to Your Honours which person.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Now it's on the record; that's

14 the problem.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, now I understand.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: So that part of the objection

17 is upheld.

18 I thought Mr. Ryneveld wanted to assist.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: May I just confer with my

20 colleague.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: So can we go? Maybe now you

23 have conferred with your colleague and --

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

25 Q. Just for a clarification, when you pointed

1 someone out, it's the gentleman, the first one on the

2 right side; is that correct?

3 A. From down there, yes, the first person. When

4 I'm looking this way, to the right-hand side.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: So counsel, who is it? What's

7 the name of the person on the right-hand side of the

8 witness?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person is Zoran

10 Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13 Q. Witness, you gave -- do you recall that you

14 gave a statement to the Prosecutor's office?

15 A. I didn't quite understand the question.

16 Could you explain this a bit, please?

17 Q. Did you give a statement to the Prosecutor's

18 office some time ago?

19 A. No.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

21 usher, I would like to show the Exhibit -- Prosecution

22 Exhibit number 55 to the witness, in both languages, in

23 B/C/S and in English.

24 Q. Would you please look on to the English

25 version first, which is the original version. Do you

1 see the date on the first page of this document and did

2 you see your signature?

3 A. I see it, yes. It's all right. Everything's

4 fine. I saw all of it.

5 Q. Now having this piece of paper at hand, do

6 you recall that you once gave a statement; that is, in

7 September 1995, gave a statement to staff from the

8 Prosecutor's Office?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, I did.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to enter

11 this into evidence.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit 55.

14 This will be Prosecution Exhibit 55.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

16 Q. I would like to draw your attention -- if you

17 now please take the Bosnian version, I would like to

18 draw your attention to page 9, last paragraph. In the

19 English version it's page 10, fifth paragraph. It

20 starts: "I remember that Zoran Vukovic ..." and so

21 on.

22 Would you please read it?

23 A. "I remember that that was Zoran Vukovic, that

24 he was one of the soldiers who I heard about before the

25 war, but I did not know him personally. I had heard

1 that when the war started, he became a criminal. He is

2 about 35 years old. His hair was not long, but it was

3 not very short either. His hair was black in colour.

4 He is of medium height and normal weight. I always saw

5 him in the uniform of the former JNA. He always had a

6 rifle and a knife on him."

7 Q. This should be enough. When you gave this

8 statement, which is five years ago, was your memory

9 good?

10 A. Well, better than now.

11 Q. Does this statement help you in any way to

12 remember?

13 A. I remembered the face too, that I knew that I

14 had seen that man somewhere and that the face was

15 familiar to me, and it only could have been then, in

16 Foca, and never again.

17 Q. What do you mean by this? I didn't really

18 understand.

19 A. I only could have seen him then, when I was

20 in Foca and not after that. When I left Foca in 1992,

21 afterwards I could not have seen anyone. While I was

22 there in Foca, detained, that's when I could have seen

23 him.

24 Q. You are talking of whom now? I'm a little

25 bit -- I do not really understand.

1 A. This man, the man I said I recognise now. I

2 know his face. I know that I saw him, but I only could

3 have seen him in Foca while we were detained, this

4 Zoran Vukovic. As far as I can see, it is that face.

5 Q. Do I have to understand that you now say the

6 person you pointed out is the man who you described

7 here in this previous statement or are you just talking

8 about this person you described in the previous

9 statement?

10 A. As far as I described in my previous

11 statement and as far as I can see now, it could be that

12 person.

13 Q. However, you're not sure?

14 A. Not 100 percent, but 90 percent, yes.

15 Q. But when I draw your attention back to the

16 previous statement, you mention here that his hair was

17 black in colour.

18 A. Well, I could not notice every little

19 detail. I was in great fear. I was terribly upset. I

20 was crying all the time. I did not dare look at

21 anyone. I could not perceive every little thing in

22 order to describe who was like what.

23 Q. This person you mention in your statement as

24 Zoran Vukovic, did he take out your daughter only once

25 or on various occasions?

1 A. I know about Buk Bijela, when we were there,

2 that she was taken away. I don't know about

3 afterwards, and I don't know who took her. She was

4 taken out quite a few times, and by whom, that I don't

5 know. But in Buk Bijela, I know that it's that person,

6 that he took away my child who was not even 17 at the

7 time.

8 Q. Thank you. You did not see anybody else in

9 this courtroom who you know from Foca?

10 A. I did, but I don't know anyone that well. I

11 saw -- but it's not that I know someone that well.

12 Q. What you do you mean? Do you mean to say

13 that you recognise another person in the courtroom from

14 Foca?

15 A. Well, I did not directly recognise any other

16 person from Foca, because I did not know anyone from

17 before. Although I would see someone come sometimes

18 and take a girl or a woman away, I did not dare look

19 that closely. And I was so upset all the time, and I

20 was crying all of the time, and that's why I could not

21 directly recognise everyone now. It's been eight years

22 since then, and I can't recognise everyone any more.

23 Q. But does anybody here in the courtroom,

24 except for the one you have already pointed out, look

25 familiar to you?

1 A. No. Directly, no. I could not say I know

2 this person and this is such-and-such a person. No. I

3 don't know.

4 Q. Do you recall that you once were shown a

5 photo board with a lot of photos?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can the usher please

8 show this Exhibit 56 to the witness, especially the

9 photo board.

10 Q. Do you recall that this photo board was once

11 shown to you?

12 A. Yes, this was shown to me, but I could not

13 recognise these persons and could not say who was who

14 and give their names.

15 Q. And do you recall that it was on the 9th of

16 April, 1998? Because that's the date on the document.

17 A. I remember having looked at these

18 photographs.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I want to

21 enter this into evidence. It's a photo board, photo ID

22 report, Exhibit 56 of the Prosecution, and it was a

23 photo ID procedure conducted by the Prosecutor's

24 Office, and included in the photo board was a photo of

25 the accused Dragoljub Kunarac.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Defence? Any comments from the

2 Defence?

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

4 Honour.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This will be

7 Prosecution Exhibit 56.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Registrar, we've got the

9 number?

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. It's

11 Prosecution Exhibit 56.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13 Q. When did you leave Partizan?

14 A. I left on the 13th of August, 1992.

15 Q. Can you describe your leaving Foca? What did

16 happen on that day?

17 A. On that day, in the morning, some people

18 came, these soldiers who had guarded us. They said,

19 "We're going to have permits made for you now and

20 you're going to go to Skopje in the morning." They

21 informed us at 7.00 in the morning. They said we

22 should go out in front of the building and wait for the

23 buses. We waited until 3.00 in the afternoon. That's

24 when the buses came, two buses, and took us to

25 Montenegro.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

2 usher, I would like to show the witness now an

3 additional exhibit, but I don't know where I have it

4 right now. It's the Exhibit number 56 from the

5 binders.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the registrar can provide

7 the usher with a copy.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Could I have grabbed it

9 by accident and given it already to you, because it's

10 not on my desk, and it was here before.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Can you

12 please give me the number of this exhibit, please? The

13 number of the exhibit.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's number 56. It

15 should be the permit, the exit permit.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] No, 56 is the

17 photo board.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry. Then there's

19 obviously a mistake. Sorry. I need a minute just to

20 check something.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm sorry, Your

23 Honours. I made a mistake in numbering. The document

24 I'm pointing to is the Exhibit 53 in the exhibit

25 binder, and it's in English -- the original is in

1 B/C/S, and there is an English translation attached to

2 this.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Then it can be

4 shown to the witness.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Will you please put this

6 document on the ELMO so that we can all look at it?

7 Sorry, there is a name on it.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Please make

9 sure that the name of the witness does not appear on

10 the document.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

12 Q. I think the best is just to read what it is.

13 Is it an exit permit addressed to you?

14 A. The names are written here, and with this we

15 can leave Foca. This permit was signed by Dragan

16 Gagovic, head of -- head of the station.

17 Q. Can you give us the date of this document,

18 when it was signed?

19 A. The 13th of August, 1992.

20 Q. What is the destination given in this exit

21 permit?

22 A. Departure from Foca to Skopje.

23 Q. Was it your wish to go to Skopje?

24 A. No, it was not our wish. We had no idea

25 where we would go. That's what was written down, and

1 we were told that we would be going to Skopje, but then

2 we did not. We went to Montenegro and that's where we

3 stayed.

4 Q. On this document you have here children

5 listed, but how many children are listed? Don't say

6 the names.

7 A. Three are mentioned.

8 Q. Your daughter, Witness number 50, is not

9 mentioned. Why not?

10 A. I don't know why not. I saw immediately that

11 she was not mentioned there, but I didn't say anything;

12 I didn't ask anyone anything. That's how I left, just

13 with all of this that was written down, nothing else.

14 Q. However, your daughter, number 50, also left

15 together with you?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. Before you left for Montenegro, was there any

18 other place for you to go? Did they ever tell you to

19 go somewhere else?

20 A. They told us that we would be going to

21 Skopje. That's the only thing they told us, that we

22 would be going from there to Skopje. But then we

23 didn't go to Skopje; we went to Montenegro.

24 Q. Were you ever told that you are going to

25 Gorazde?

1 A. Before our departure, they came once in the

2 morning and told us to go out, that a bus would come

3 there and that we would be taken to Gorazde. There was

4 a neighbour whom I know and there were others in

5 uniforms, soldiers. We went out. We waited for a

6 while. They talked amongst themselves and then they

7 told us to go back and that we would not be taken away

8 until the next day. But then this was ten days before

9 we were actually taken from Foca. Then they never told

10 us again that we would be going to Gorazde. Later they

11 came and told us that we would be going to Skopje. And

12 about ten days had passed since then, perhaps even

13 more. I don't know.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we now enter this

15 document into evidence?

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document

17 is marked Prosecution Exhibit 53.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution is now

19 finished with the examination.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll move on to

21 cross-examination. Any Defence counsel?

22 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

24 Honour, I shall begin the cross-examination.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

1 Q. Good afternoon.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. After all these events, when did you first --

4 when was your family reunited for the first time after

5 all these events?

6 A. In 1994.

7 Q. After that, once you were reunited, did you

8 discuss what had taken place during the time that you

9 were separated?

10 A. No, we didn't.

11 Q. If I understand you correctly, you never

12 spoke at home about what had happened to you while you

13 were separated, before you were reunited.

14 A. Well, who could I talk to? In 1994 we met up

15 again, all of us together, and then when we met, we

16 talked, and I and my daughter talked together about the

17 problems that we had.

18 Q. I think we have misunderstood each other.

19 Let me repeat the question. After your family had

20 reunited again, did you discuss what had happened to

21 you while you were separated?

22 A. We didn't talk while we were separated.

23 Q. Well, when you all were reunited again, did

24 you then discuss what had happened to you?

25 A. Yes, we discussed it then.

1 Q. Very well. Did you discuss what had happened

2 many times?

3 A. Well, I find it hard to repeat any of this.

4 It is very difficult for me to say what I had lived

5 through, what happened to my child. This is very

6 difficult for me, and although I have to say it now, I

7 find it very hard. I can't forget, ever forget what

8 happened to me or my child, for as long as I live, but

9 it's painful for me to speak about it.

10 Q. But each of you said what had happened to

11 them?

12 A. Yes. My family talked about what had

13 happened to each of us; naturally, we did. And my

14 mother told me what happened in the interim, that my

15 father wasn't there, that he didn't come back. Of

16 course I asked her about all these things.

17 Q. Yes, that's what I meant, the kind of talk

18 one has amongst family members.

19 A. Yes. I asked about my father straight away,

20 where he was. I asked, of course, but he had

21 disappeared. We never saw him again after 1992. He

22 was never seen or heard of again. I don't know where

23 his grave is. Whether I'll ever know, I don't know.

24 Q. Does that mean that all the members of your

25 family now knows what happened with the other family

1 members while you were separated?

2 A. Of course, because when we were reunited, if

3 I was in Foca with my child, she told me what happened

4 to her and I told her what happened to me.

5 Q. Let's put it this way. I'm interested in the

6 period when you had become reunited, when you were all

7 back together again. Not before that, not in Foca, but

8 finally when you were all back together again; that's

9 the period I'm interested in.

10 A. Well, when we were all back together again,

11 my mother was with me and she told me about what had

12 happened to my father. And when we met up with my

13 sister, we talked about it. We said that our father

14 had disappeared, never to be seen or heard of again.

15 Q. Let me reformulate that question and ask you

16 it in the following way: Did you tell your husband

17 what had happened to you?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Did your husband tell you what had happened

20 to him?

21 A. I didn't ask him. Why should he tell me?

22 Because he had probably had the same fate as I did, and

23 even worse things might have happened to him. And my

24 child wasn't able to tell him what happened to her. I

25 had to tell him, as far as I was able to. It was

1 better for me to tell him. Well, our child told him

2 too, our daughter told him too, but it was easier for

3 me to tell him than it was for my daughter to tell him.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do

5 apologise, Your Honours, but I didn't hear what the

6 witness said, so I shall just read the transcript.

7 Q. I think you said, Witness, that your daughter

8 talked to your husband as well about what had happened

9 to her.

10 A. My daughter talked to me, and then I told my

11 husband what happened to her. I said to her, "Tell

12 your father what happened to you." And she said, "I'm

13 too ashamed to tell my father what happened to me."

14 And I said, "You have to tell him, because it was not

15 your fault; you didn't want that to happen to you."

16 Q. And did she take your advice and did she tell

17 him?

18 A. Whenever she told me, she would always cry,

19 and she always cries when she refers to what happened

20 to both of us.

21 Q. If I understood you correctly, your daughter

22 did ultimately tell her father what had happened. She

23 told him once.

24 A. I told her to tell -- I said, "Tell your

25 father what happened." And on one occasion she said,

1 "I was raped," and that's all. She couldn't utter

2 anything else.

3 Q. When you gave your statement to the officials

4 of the Tribunal, did anyone else from your family make

5 statements?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Which other member of your family?

8 A. You mean here, where somebody gave a

9 statement before me; is that your question?

10 Q. No. I don't think you understood me. A

11 moment ago the usher showed you the statement you gave

12 to the officials of the Tribunal on the 4th and 5th of

13 September, 1995.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you gave your statement, did any other

16 family member give a statement?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

19 as the witness has identified the text of the statement

20 in Serbo-Croatian and the statement in English by

21 placing her signature to the document, I should like to

22 tender this into evidence.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: It was already tendered by the

24 Prosecution.

25 Can the Registrar give us the number?

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This witness

2 statement dated 4th and 5th of September, 1995 is

3 Prosecution Exhibit 55.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

5 Your Honour. I didn't come to understand that the

6 B/C/S version was also tendered into evidence.

7 Q. In your statement, when you talk about the

8 massacres that occurred in the villages of Trnovace and

9 Brod, can you tell us how you know about this, where

10 you got the information?

11 A. We listened to the news over Radio Sarajevo.

12 We heard it on the news.

13 Q. Was that your sole source of information with

14 respect to that?

15 A. Yes. I didn't go anywhere and I couldn't

16 hear about it in any other way. The only way was over

17 Radio Sarajevo on the news.

18 Q. Do you know who broadcast the news bulletins

19 via Radio Sarajevo at the time?

20 A. I really don't know. I don't know.

21 Q. Very well. I'd like to clarify a part of

22 your statement with respect to the relationships

23 between you and the Serbs in the village before the

24 3rd of July, 1992. What can you tell us about that?

25 A. Well, what do you want me to tell you? We

1 lived very well before that. There were no disputes

2 amongst us. We lived in harmony with our neighbours as

3 we have always done. My next-door neighbours were

4 Serbs, living next door to me.

5 Q. When did you start hiding in the woods and

6 why?

7 A. I started hiding in the woods 15 days before

8 because cars, armoured vehicles would pass by my house

9 every day. There was shooting. I saw a neighbour

10 armed. They would pass by my house too. They didn't

11 say anything to me, but down below my house was the

12 road and they would pass by that way. The armoured

13 vehicles would pass by that way, and I was afraid. I

14 didn't dare go out of the house because my house is

15 right next to the asphalt road.

16 Q. If I understand you correctly, this shooting

17 went on during the day.

18 A. During the day and sometimes at night too.

19 You could hear shooting during the night, and so I

20 didn't dare stay in my house during the night.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We apologise,

22 Your Honours. May we have a moment?

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You said in one of your statements to the

1 Prosecution, you said that you hid for two months

2 before the critical event. You now say that this was

3 some 15 days before the critical event. Could you

4 explain that?

5 A. Well, I was visiting with friends. I was

6 away for -- that is, I was visiting in the village with

7 my uncles, at my uncle's place for a month, and then I

8 went back to my place, and I would go out for the

9 15 days.

10 Q. But to go back to the shooting during the

11 daytime, were you afraid during the day as well?

12 A. Yes, I was. I was very much afraid.

13 Q. Why didn't you go to the woods during the

14 day?

15 A. Well, I had to have something to eat. I had

16 to make my children something to eat, bake bread for

17 them and give them their food, prepare meals.

18 Q. Did anything happen, anything bad happen to

19 you or those around you when you went back to your

20 home, within those two months, to prepare food?

21 A. Nothing bad happened to me or my children

22 until the 3rd of July. Nothing happened to us before

23 then.

24 Q. Could you tell us, as far as you are able to

25 recollect, what the situation was like -- describe it

1 for us -- when you were held prisoner?

2 A. I said a moment ago what the situation was

3 like when I was taken prisoner. There were no

4 facilities for any normal kind of life; no hygiene or

5 sanitary conditions, not enough food. We were

6 mistreated. We were taken away, brought back. That's

7 how it was.

8 Q. I'm interested in knowing the following:

9 Could you tell, in precise terms, how it came about

10 that you were arrested? Could you describe that

11 situation for me? Nothing before, nothing after, just

12 your moment of arrest.

13 A. We were in the woods. [redacted], the

14 ones that I know, found me. Nedjo Cosovic, Ranko

15 Cosovic, and Novak Gagovic, they found me in the

16 woods. The two of them, Nedjo and Dragan, found me,

17 and Novak Gagovic. They found me in the woods. They

18 came across our whole group. And they said, "Come with

19 us to our house. They'll come to take you away to

20 Foca. There are more of your people down there."

21 We came to Ranko's house. Two or three

22 soldiers arrived. I think there were three with a Land

23 Rover, Range Rover. They took men off to the KP Dom

24 for questioning -- that's what they told them -- and

25 they haven't been seen to this day, ever.

1 The next day we were taken to Buk Bijela.

2 Q. Did you tell your husband how you were

3 arrested?

4 A. I told him some things, but I have never told

5 him everything that happened to me. I can't.

6 Q. Did you tell him how you were arrested?

7 A. Yes. I told him how we came to be arrested,

8 how I came to be arrested.

9 Q. Do you know that your husband said that you

10 told him that you had gone to [redacted]

11 [redacted]?

12 A. [redacted] and

13 that they took us off to their houses and that they

14 would then escort us to Foca.

15 Q. I think there's a slight difference there.

16 It is different if somebody comes to collect you or if

17 you go off to somebody's place.

18 A. When they found us, we asked them whether

19 they could help us get out of there, because we said,

20 "We have nowhere to go. Our houses have been burnt."

21 They said, "We, we can. You will be transported to

22 Foca. Nothing will happen to you." That's what they

23 told us.

24 Q. Well, to wind up that particular question:

25 [redacted], they found you in

1 the woods; is that right?

2 A. One woman had gone to one of [redacted]

3 [redacted] that she had frequented

4 before, and she called him and he came to fetch us.

5 Two of them came to get us, and the third one was

6 waiting at home.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Does the

8 witness have in front of her the statement in B/C/S?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps the usher can check.

10 Yes. The witness has now been shown the statement.

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Madam, could you please look at page 3 of

13 your statement? Did you find it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Please have a look at the bottom part of the

16 page.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

18 the text begins with the sentence: "I and the group I

19 was hiding with ..."

20 Q. Please read out to all of us what you stated

21 there and then.

22 A. "I and the group I was hiding with were

23 captured on the 4th of July, 1992, in the evening.

24 [redacted], Nedjo Cosovic and Novak Gagovic, came

25 to get us from the woods. Nedjo took us to the house

1 of Ranko Cosovic. Ranko is Nedjo's son."

2 Q. Thank you. I do not see here any woman who

3 went to fetch neighbours who should come and pick you

4 up.

5 A. Well, it doesn't matter. The woman went.

6 But these people did not do anything for me. They said

7 that they would take me to Foca and that nothing would

8 happen to me. That's the only thing that happened.

9 Q. When you gave this statement, did you say

10 only the things that you thought were important?

11 A. What I remembered is what I said, what I

12 thought was all right. After all, eight years have

13 gone by and there are many things that one cannot

14 remember. It's been eight years since 1992.

15 Q. If this is correct here, you made your

16 statement in September 1995.

17 A. Yes. Yes. That's right. That's when I

18 actually made my statement. And also, some things can

19 be forgotten by then.

20 Q. Oh, yes. From 1995 until now, a lot of

21 things could have been forgotten, but from the day when

22 that happened to you until 1995, not eight years had

23 elapsed.

24 A. No. No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm

25 saying from 1992 until now, the near 2000. I was not

1 referring to 1995.

2 Q. Yes, but now you are remembering, not

3 forgetting. We have more and more new details from you

4 in spite of the passage of time.

5 A. Well, perhaps I forget something. Perhaps I

6 remember something. That's it.

7 Q. A few minutes ago when my learned friend from

8 the Prosecution was examining you, you said that your

9 memory was much better five years ago than it was now.

10 A. Well, naturally. Of course. If a person is

11 younger, does he have a better memory or not? Of

12 course a younger person would have a better memory than

13 an older person.

14 Q. I agree with you. Thank you. Now I have to

15 ask you to look at page 5 of your statement. The third

16 sentence from the top of the page.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

18 it's starts with: "My daughter ..." And the name is

19 not mentioned. I mean, I'm not mentioning the name.

20 Q. Please be careful. Do not by any means say

21 the name, but could you please read this part of the

22 statement?

23 A. "My daughter was questioned as well at Buk

24 Bijela. I do not know who it was who questioned her.

25 She stayed inside a much longer time than I did, maybe

1 for about half an hour."

2 Q. Could we now hear a few sentences after that,

3 a bit lower. It starts with the sentence: "But I do

4 not know ..." Just read that part, please.

5 A. On page 5? Now I closed this statement

6 again. It's the same page?

7 Q. Yes, you could read the entire paragraph so

8 that it could be clearer to all of us.

9 A. What am I supposed to read, the way I started

10 reading?

11 Q. No, madam. You can just continue.

12 A. You mean from up here where I started?

13 Q. That's right.

14 A. "When she came out, she was crying and saying

15 that she would jump into the River Drina. She was

16 neither able to, nor was he allowed to talk to me

17 because armed soldiers were all around us, but I do not

18 know what happened to her inside that room. She never

19 told me anything."

20 Q. Today you said that your daughter had told

21 you that on that occasion she had been raped and that

22 she was raped by Zoran Vukovic.

23 A. Yes. That's what my daughter told me. She

24 did not tell me immediately up there, but it was all

25 clear to me when I saw her, when I saw the state she

1 was in when she walked out, when I saw how much she

2 cried. It was all clear to me what had happened. I

3 did not dare say anything. I just told her, "Keep

4 quiet." Then we went to the school, and then some time

5 had elapsed until I told her, but she did not tell me

6 there, but then she did tell me.

7 Q. I'm going to read this to you again. "I do

8 not know what happened in that room. She never told me

9 anything."

10 A. I don't know what's written down there, but

11 then she did not tell me for sure. However, later on

12 she did tell me what had happened to her, that she had

13 been raped and everything.

14 Q. Are you trying to tell me that your statement

15 was not taken down fairly?

16 A. I'm not trying to say that my statement was

17 not taken down fairly. Perhaps a mistake can be made

18 somewhere. You know, for example, when I'm talking,

19 it's not all written down very nicely the way it's

20 supposed to be, or perhaps when I'm speaking I don't

21 express myself properly. All of that is possible.

22 Q. There always seems to be a problem with

23 translation.

24 A. Of course. If I say one word, I say it this

25 way and somebody else says it some other way or it is

1 misinterpreted or mistranslated, or I don't know, but

2 to say something, if something was not done, then it is

3 very big. However, what happened to me is even bigger

4 than that.

5 Q. It is precisely for that reason that I'm

6 putting this question to you, to say that someone did

7 something without him having done it.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If we agree and if you confirm that your

10 memory was much better in 1995 than it is today at this

11 trial, I'm interested in the following: How could you

12 tell us this today?

13 A. I told you something just now.

14 Q. May I just finish, please.

15 A. Yes, okay. Go ahead. Finish.

16 Q. I understand that there's a problem with

17 translation, but this is too serious a mistake, when

18 one says, "She never told me," or if one says, "She

19 told me later." Let me just remind you. After you

20 made your statement, you confirmed that you know what

21 you stated, that this was read out to you, and that it

22 contains everything that you said. "I gave this

23 statement voluntarily."

24 A. Naturally. Of course I had to say what

25 happened to me. If something had happened to any

1 person, the kind of thing that happened to me, everyone

2 would want to say the truth and to say exactly what

3 happened, the way it was. I am to be blamed least of

4 all for everything, but I know how I fared.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, the point has been

6 made. Please proceed.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

8 Honour. Thank you.

9 Q. This same page, you describe the room that

10 you were in. I'm referring to the room in the high

11 school. I'm interested in the following: You say that

12 there were big windows in the classroom. You don't

13 know which way they were facing, because you did not

14 dare look through the window.

15 A. Of course I never looked. Of course I did

16 not get up to look through the window. I had a

17 five-year-old child who was crying all the time,

18 terrified. It never got out of my lap. The child was

19 always crying and was always terrified.

20 Q. How far up is this window from the floor?

21 A. I don't know. I don't know. I could not

22 say, even for my own house, the house that I lived in

23 for 20 years. I don't know exactly how far. I could

24 not say how high up the window was. I never measured

25 this. I don't know where the window was. I cannot say

1 whether it was one meter, two meters, three meters. I

2 could not see that.

3 Q. I'll try to help you. The lower edge of the

4 window, is it as high up as I am tall, or is it further

5 up?

6 A. I don't know.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness has said she wasn't

8 looking, she never measured, she doesn't know. So she

9 can't even give you a comparison, because she doesn't

10 know.

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

12 Honour, but I'm interested in the following: A person

13 can usually tell how high something is, provisionally:

14 half a meter, a meter, two meters. I'm just interested

15 in the approximate height of the windows. Because this

16 is a high school. All schools, in principle,

17 everywhere in the world, are built this similar way,

18 with big windows, to have enough light in the

19 classroom, because of the children. I don't want to

20 know the exact height.

21 JUDGE HUNT: If you're as interested in the

22 fact, we've got photographs of them. But if you are

23 wanting to know from this witness what she says the

24 height was, what is the relevance of it?

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The

1 relevance, Your Honour, is in checking out this

2 witness's statement. The witness says here that she

3 did not dare look through the window, and now she said

4 to me that she never looked through the window. I find

5 this very strange.

6 JUDGE HUNT: I think that you are looking for

7 things that just aren't there, if I may say so. If she

8 says somewhere else that she was able to see out the

9 window, then you can put to her the inconsistency. But

10 just because you find it strange, doesn't make it

11 relevant. The fact that she says she didn't look out

12 through the windows is maybe one thing that you could

13 investigate. But the height of the windows doesn't

14 suggest to me any necessary relationship with the

15 subject of your cross-examination at all. She's not

16 suggesting that they were so high that she couldn't see

17 out of them; she has simply said she did not look out

18 of them.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

20 Honour.

21 Q. Who forbade you to look through the window?

22 A. Nobody forbade it. Nobody told me to look or

23 not to look. I'm telling you now: My child, who was 5

24 years old, did not dare leave my lap. The child was

25 terrified, and everything else. The child had milk in

1 its bottle -- I mean, it would still take milk from a

2 bottle, and when we went there, there was no milk, and

3 I could not get milk in a bottle for my child for all

4 the time while we were there.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, our time is up. We'll

6 continue tomorrow at 0930 hours with

7 cross-examination. The court will now adjourn.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

9 at 4:03 p.m., to be reconvened on

10 Wednesday, the 29^th day of March, 2000,

11 at 9.30 a.m.

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