Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1465

1 Monday, 3 April 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Will the registrar please call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case

8 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, Zoran Vukovic.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I notice that the parties

11 are as before. I just want to find out from the

12 accused persons whether they can hear the proceedings

13 in a language they understand.

14 Mr. Kunarac, can you hear the proceedings in

15 a language you understand?

16 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I

17 can hear and understand, Your Honour.

18 THE ACCUSED KOVAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

19 Honour, I can hear and understand.

20 THE ACCUSED VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes,

21 Your Honour, I can hear and understand.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm having some difficulty

24 with my equipment here. Sorry. This doesn't work.

25 Hopefully you'll be able to hear me. I can't hear much

Page 1466

1 by way of proceedings, but, in any event, you'll note

2 that we've started without the witness this morning,

3 and that's at the request of the Prosecution to deal

4 with three matters of a procedural nature.

5 We felt that it was important that these

6 matters being brought to the Court's attention and to

7 my learned friends' attention as soon as possible.

8 The first matter -- if I may just give you an

9 outline of what those three matters are and deal with

10 each of them in order. The three matters are: First

11 of all, the Prosecution's indication of its intention

12 to bring on an application at some point amending the

13 indictment in order to conform with the evidence heard

14 thus far. I'll get back to that, if I may.

15 Secondly, the Prosecution's application to

16 withdraw some counts in the current indictment, due to

17 the fact that one of the witnesses has indicated that

18 she is not willing to testify. That will affect

19 Witness 101 and will affect Counts 14 to 17.

20 The third matter is the indication by another

21 witness that she is prepared to testify, and the

22 Prosecution's application to add Witness DB to the

23 witness list.

24 Those are the three matters that I thought I

25 should bring to your attention.

Page 1467

1 If I may turn first to the first matter, and

2 that is the Prosecution's intention to bring on an

3 application to amend the indictment to conform to the

4 evidence. You may have noticed that in the course of

5 the evidence of Witness 50 and 75, there have been

6 potentially three incidents which may require

7 amendment.

8 In the first place, Witness 50 testified that

9 Zoran Vukovic raped her on the 5th of July, 1992, and

10 he is charged in the indictment presently with having

11 raped Witness 50 in relation to Partizan, but he has

12 not been charged in the indictment, as it currently

13 stands, of having raped her in Buk Bijela. So that

14 would be a completely new charge.

15 My learned friends were informed of that fact

16 as soon as we found out about it, and, in fact, they

17 have had an opportunity of cross-examining.

18 The second matter relates to Witness 75, who

19 has indicated that while she was in Klanfa's apartment,

20 that is Vukovic's apartment, she was personally -- I'm

21 sorry, Kovac. Vukovic raped her in Kovac's apartment.

22 That was in November of 1992.

23 So in any event -- and there is also a third

24 incident involving Mr. Kunarac. Now, he was charged

25 with the rape of Witness 50 at number 16, but he wasn't

Page 1468

1 charged with having raped her personally. You will

2 recall that the indictment presently indicates that he

3 is being charged as a participant under 7(1) and 7(3).

4 Having said all of that, the Prosecution's

5 intention to amend, the question then becomes: When

6 would we do that? We want to put the Defence on

7 notice, as quickly as possible, prior to Witness 75

8 having completed her testimony, so that my friends are

9 on notice that they would need to cross-examine on any

10 of those kinds of charges and to give them as much

11 notice as possible.

12 It is technically possible, although we do

13 not anticipate it, it is technically possible that

14 other witnesses might also relate circumstances which

15 may result in applications to amend. Rather than bring

16 on multiple applications for amendment, it is our

17 present intention to bring on an application for

18 amendment at the conclusion of the Prosecution's case,

19 so that in the event that there are other incidents,

20 that they are dealt with all at once rather than have

21 multiple applications to amend.

22 As I say, we do not anticipate, but one never

23 knows, and in order to save the Court's time and the

24 whole process, we felt it was incumbent on us to bring

25 this to the Court's attention as quickly as possible

Page 1469

1 and to allow my friends the opportunity of knowing that

2 they are on notice, and, therefore, their

3 cross-examination ought also apply to these new

4 instances, subject always, of course, to the Court's

5 ruling on our application, should we make it at the end

6 of the Prosecution's case.

7 That is the first issue.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we leave that issue, can

9 I just get it clear.


11 JUDGE MUMBA: Given your reference to

12 Witness 50 and Witness 75, if you're going to apply for

13 an amendment, it will all still be after the end of the

14 Prosecution case?

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That's correct. I

16 suppose that to be the best way I can phrase what our

17 intention is at the moment, that is our intention now.

18 Circumstances may change, but in fairness to all

19 parties, they should be aware, before the witness

20 leaves or is dismissed, that their opportunity to

21 cross-examine is now.

22 With respect to Witness 50, they were given

23 the summary of the evidence that she was about to give,

24 and they, in fact, did cross-examine on Witness 50.

25 There was no objection made to the disclosure of that

Page 1470

1 evidence. That was disclosed. Witness 75 came up

2 during evidence on Thursday. This is our first

3 opportunity to bring it to people's attention, and her

4 evidence in chief isn't over yet.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we leave that, because

6 I'd like to conclude each point, if I may.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, absolutely.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to find out -- and

9 before I give the opportunity to the Defence, I just

10 want to find out.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ryneveld, the problem I have

13 with your proposal is this: You were right in saying

14 there was no objection to the evidence given in

15 relation to Witnesses 50 and 75, and therefore there

16 may well be no objection to an amendment being made

17 eventually. But there may well be a case where there

18 will be an objection on the basis that the Defence is

19 in no position to meet in relation to that particular

20 witness. That is something which would have to be

21 resolved at that time.


23 JUDGE HUNT: I can understand from a pure

24 documentation point of view, it would be simpler to

25 have one amended indictment at the end of the

Page 1471

1 Prosecution case, but I think from the point of view of

2 the Defence, it would be better if we rule on each as

3 it came up. Whether the precise document that is filed

4 is completed then or at the end of the Prosecution case

5 is another matter, but I think there will have to be a

6 ruling on these amendments from time to time during the

7 Prosecution case. That's from my own point of view.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: I certainly understand --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you answer,

10 Mr. Ryneveld: In addition to that, you see, it is not

11 possible for a Defence counsel to entirely conceive the

12 consequences of additional evidence and to be able to

13 cross-examine on it, because the Defence counsel is

14 holding the indictment.


16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And so their

17 cross-examination would be heavy on the charges on the

18 indictment. So it is not possible to argue that they

19 did cross-examine FWS-50 already. They didn't know

20 that there will be an extra count. So their

21 cross-examination may have been weak. You see what I

22 mean?

23 And the other point is: If you are going to

24 amend the indictment at the end of the Prosecution

25 case, in case any or more witnesses come and produce,

Page 1472

1 give you new evidence, it may happen that we may have

2 to resit the whole Prosecution case, because the

3 Defence may be entitled to recall the witnesses. So,

4 you know, you have to take into account all those

5 points.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. With

7 respect to Witness 50, that is the first witness who

8 would be affected by any such application, and the

9 Defence, as I understood it, has already had an

10 opportunity to cross-examine. You are absolutely right

11 that the extent of the cross-examination with respect

12 to Witness 50 may have been different had they known of

13 our intention to bring on an application to amend. And

14 it may be that the Trial Chamber, supposing, (A), you

15 grant our application to amend, might order that

16 Witness 50 be recalled for cross-examination on that

17 point. And that is certainly within the realm of

18 possibility with respect to Witness 50.

19 What we did not wish to do is to have that

20 potential for further witnesses, which is why before

21 Witness 75 was completed in chief, we thought: Bring

22 the matter on now, put the Defence on notice, so that

23 they know that with respect to the allegation by

24 Witness 75 regarding each of their clients, that they

25 ought to cross-examine as if there will be a charge in

Page 1473

1 the indictment. That, of course, is always subject to

2 the Court's ruling.

3 JUDGE HUNT: They wouldn't know the wording

4 of the charge to start with, and that's fairly

5 important. I mean, one of the witnesses, as I

6 understood it, came out with something which not even

7 the Prosecution knew about. So it would have been

8 difficult to have the wording of the indictment in

9 advance. But at least in most cases it would be

10 necessary for the Defence and for the Trial Chamber to

11 have the wording of the indictment amended, or at least

12 the identification of the amendment, made in advance of

13 the witness giving evidence. Then the Defence would be

14 in a position, a better position, to be able to say:

15 Yes, we can meet it now properly, or we can't. And it

16 may mean delaying the witness or something like that,

17 but I think we should have the wording of the amendment

18 at the time that you are going -- or before you call

19 the witness.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: And you know the normal problem

21 we have with the Defence counsels who don't live here.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: True.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: They would have to go and

24 investigate, look for witnesses. Because they can only

25 contradict that which they know they will need during

Page 1474

1 the Defence case. So if they don't investigate, they

2 know they can't get witnesses, how do they

3 cross-examine?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I certainly understand Your

5 Honour's point, and we just thought that the most

6 responsible way to deal with this matter was to raise

7 it as quickly as possible. We will, I take it,

8 continue this morning with our witness, and if we

9 choose to bring on an application to amend the

10 indictment, we'll have to do it in writing and as

11 quickly as possible. And so I do appreciate that.

12 Thank you very much.

13 Would you like me to turn to the second

14 issue, then? I've already intimated that it affects

15 the dropping of some counts, and that is to do with

16 Witness 101.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe before we leave this, we

18 should give the Defence counsels an opportunity to

19 express their views as well so that when you go, you

20 are making your decisions, you are well aware of the

21 fears of everybody.

22 Mr. Kunarac [sic], you've heard what the

23 Prosecution is saying about the possibility of amending

24 the indictments, in view of the evidence so far

25 received, also in view of the evidence they're

Page 1475

1 expecting from another witness who is not yet listed,

2 who may be listed. You've heard the views of the

3 Bench, so we would like to hear your views on their

4 intention to amend. I'm sorry. I hear I called you

5 Mr. Kunarac. I mean the counsel for Mr. Kunarac:

6 Mr. Prodanovic. So please go ahead with your views.

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

8 you have just stated the reasons which we, the Defence,

9 wish to put forward. We stuck to the framework of the

10 indictment as we received it. This is something quite

11 new for us which we were not banking on, and we do need

12 a period of time to be able to state our views in

13 greater detail and more clarity than what my learned

14 colleague, the Prosecutor, has just put forward. Thank

15 you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any comments other

17 than what Mr. Prodanovic has said?

18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I completely

19 concur with what my colleague, Mr. Prodanovic, has just

20 stated, and particularly agree with what the Trial

21 Chamber has concluded, and I -- Rule 50 allows for the

22 possibility of indictments to be amended, and we are

23 conscious of that fact. But you are quite right, Your

24 Honours, when you say that we do have to have a text of

25 the amended indictment so as to prepare our case and

Page 1476

1 our defence, especially in view of the fact that point

2 B states that the accused, if the indictment is

3 amended, will have to state whether he is guilty or not

4 guilty. He must answer to that count of the

5 indictment. So if there's going to be an indictment,

6 it must be submitted in written form in order to comply

7 with the Rule 50 proceedings. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, any comments

9 other than what your colleagues have already said?

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

11 Honours. I completely agree with all the comments that

12 have been made thus far by my colleagues on the Defence

13 team. I have nothing new to add. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. You may proceed to

15 the second point, Mr. Ryneveld.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 The only other thing that I could think of

18 with respect to the first point is that if we could

19 indicate the text of the form of the intended amended

20 indictment prior to cross-examination, and then bring

21 on the application at the conclusion, I wonder whether

22 that might allay my friend's concerns and also the ones

23 raised by the Chamber.

24 But as I say, it appears from my

25 understanding of what you're saying that if we're going

Page 1477

1 to do this, we should bring them on on a piecemeal

2 basis, one by one, so that everybody is aware exactly

3 of what the --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Let me correct you. The

5 Bench is not saying you should bring the amendments on

6 piecemeal; that is, if you decide after each witness,

7 then that will be the order. But you know what your

8 witnesses are going to say, particularly the new one,

9 and you've already heard these other witnesses. You've

10 already heard these other witnesses, 50, for instance.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: 50 and 75.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Part of it, yes.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: We now know what they're going

14 to say.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The importance of having

16 the amendment placed in in writing is specificity.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: I understand that. It would

18 be optimistic to say that we know exactly what future

19 witnesses will say. We thought we had a pretty good

20 idea of what 50 and 75 would say, but as you can

21 appreciate, once they testify, there are sometimes

22 other things that come out that we can't anticipate

23 despite the fact that statements were taken and despite

24 the fact that the witnesses are proofed prior to giving

25 evidence in chief.

Page 1478













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between

14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 1479

1 We have, I should indicate to the Court,

2 complied with your ruling that the witnesses have not

3 been spoken to after they have taken the stand on

4 behalf of the Prosecution. My understanding is that

5 was your ruling, and that is what we have been abiding

6 by. So we have not spoken to any of these witnesses,

7 even though they are still under examination-in-chief.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ryneveld, nobody is blaming

9 the Prosecution for this situation having arisen.

10 Anybody who has had any experience with criminal trials

11 would understand how these things turn out. We are

12 concerned not with whether you are at fault but to

13 ensure that the Defence is properly protected. That's

14 all.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. We understand that. We

16 understand that. I think I have your point on the

17 matter, and we will conduct ourselves accordingly.

18 With your permission then, with respect to

19 Witness 101, again we can't anticipate these things,

20 but we understand now that Witness 101 will not, in

21 fact, be testifying. Witness 101 relates to Counts 14

22 through 17 in the Kovac-Kunarac indictment, and in

23 light of that, I thought it was important to tell the

24 Court that we're making an application to withdraw

25 these counts in relation to the fact that we will not

Page 1480

1 anticipate being able to call evidence to support

2 them.

3 By the same token, Witness DB, which

4 heretofore did indicate that she wouldn't be testifying

5 has indicated she will, and it is our application at

6 this time to add Witness DB to the witness list, and to

7 indicate to the Court that we have now copies of the

8 summary of her informal statement available to give to

9 both my learned friends and to the Court. They've also

10 been translated into both languages -- not translated

11 into both. One is in English and one is in B/C/S.

12 Might the usher assist. There are three

13 copies there to give to my learned friends. I have one

14 set for the Court at this point. We can have copies

15 made in future. Those are my learned friends, for each

16 of the accused, and one set for the Registry. We will

17 provide copies for the Chamber during the break, if

18 that is convenient.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: And please indicate in your

20 oral application as to when you intend to call DB

21 should you be allowed to call DB.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. In the event that the

23 Court allows us to add DB to the witness list, it would

24 be our intention to call her at the conclusion of the

25 evidence for the Prosecution, before the experts. So

Page 1481

1 that would be well after the break. Probably in May

2 would be my anticipation now. So a month or more from

3 now.

4 That is the nature of the three preliminary

5 matters I wanted to bring to the Chamber's attention.

6 Unless you have any questions, those are my

7 submissions.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Yes. We've dealt

9 with one. I've now turning to the Defence counsels on

10 the second point; that is, the Prosecution have applied

11 for leave to withdraw, and that is an amendment too, to

12 withdraw Counts 14, 15, 16, and 17, and you have

13 understood their reasons. So I would like to hear your

14 comments, if any, or your submissions, rather, not


16 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course,

18 this is a lesser problem than the first point made by

19 the Prosecution. We have nothing against withdrawing

20 these counts, at least as far as Mr. Kunarac's Defence

21 counsel is concerned.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar.

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] This other

24 point has nothing to do with the counts with respect to

25 Mr. Kovac, so I have no comments to make.

Page 1482

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence

3 of Mr. Vukovic has no comments to make either with

4 respect to the Prosecution's proposal.

5 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Very well. The Trial

7 Chamber grants leave to the Prosecution to withdraw

8 Counts 14, 15, 16, and 17. Those counts are now

9 withdrawn from the indictment against Kunarac and the

10 second accused.

11 On the Prosecution's application on DB, we

12 appreciate that the Defence counsels have just been

13 given the statements. The accused persons need time to

14 read the statements, give instructions to their counsel

15 before counsel can address the Court as to what their

16 submissions are.

17 So we will give the Defence counsel time. We

18 have understood from the Prosecution that it is their

19 intention, should we allow them to call DB, to call DB

20 more or less at the close of the Prosecution case,

21 before the experts, the Prosecution experts are

22 called. So the Defence counsel have time to consult

23 their clients, consult. They can indicate to the

24 Chamber when they are ready to give their submission,

25 but not later than Thursday, because the Prosecution

Page 1483

1 have to know what the decision of the Chamber is for

2 them also to start making arrangements for calling DB

3 and the rest of it.

4 Yes. I think we have now come to the end of

5 our preliminary matters. We can proceed with our

6 witness in the witness box. I understand we have to

7 pull the blinds down before the witness can walk into

8 court.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 WITNESS: WITNESS 75 [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. We are

13 continuing this morning with your evidence in chief.

14 You are still under oath, having taken your solemn

15 declaration at the beginning of your evidence. So the

16 Prosecution will continue asking you questions.

17 The Prosecution to continue, please.

18 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

19 [Cont'd]

20 Q. Good morning, Witness.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: I see Mr. Kolesar on his feet.

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

23 have been informed by the accused because they cannot

24 see the Witness from the screen. So I would like to

25 ask the usher to remove this part of the screen a

Page 1484

1 little so that they can see.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the usher does that, I

3 would like to hear from the Prosecution. I'm wondering

4 whether this is -- I can't remember all the witness's

5 protective measures. There was one witness to be

6 screened off from the sight of the accused.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But not this witness.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So they can remove the screen.

9 Okay. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: You can extend backwards

11 because we have our blinds down that side anyway.

12 Is that sufficient?

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] That's

14 sufficient. Yes. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Usher. You are

16 drawing it back. Yes. Leave it like that.


18 Q. Good morning, Witness. Let me clarify a few

19 matters related to Partizan Sports Hall. You have

20 already described the incidents related to the house

21 you described as the tailor's house, and you have also

22 told us that besides this you were also taken out by

23 other soldiers to other places.

24 Can you tell me if other women were also

25 taken out from Partizan Sports Hall?

Page 1485

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Could the witness be

3 given the list, the list we used last time? It should

4 be Prosecution Exhibit 189.

5 Q. Would you please look at this list and tell

6 me who else was taken out of Partizan? Not saying the

7 name, just the number or the initials.

8 A. DB, number 87, 50, number 95, number 189,

9 number 51, number 90, number 48, number 74, and

10 number 88.

11 Q. Did you see them being taken out or how do

12 you know?

13 A. Well, as they took me out most, more than all

14 the others, but when I came back, I would know

15 everything that would be happening. And one night when

16 I returned, when Tuta brought me back, I found only the

17 older women in the hall. All the younger women were

18 missing. None of them were there.

19 Q. Were you or any other of the women beaten

20 when the soldiers took you out?

21 A. I personally was not. The most I was beaten

22 was by Klanfa. Klanfa beat me the most.

23 Q. Did you or any of the women ever dare to

24 refuse to go out with the soldiers from Partizan?

25 A. I personally didn't, because I knew what

Page 1486

1 would happen to me, but DB did. On one occasion she

2 didn't want to go, and when she went out of the door,

3 they slapped her and beat her and then she was returned

4 to the hall.

5 Q. Did you ever see any injuries on women in

6 Partizan?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you recall that -- did you see cigarette

9 burns on one of the women?

10 A. I didn't see them, but I heard about it later

11 on, because, as I say, I wasn't there at the time this

12 particular incident took place.

13 Q. Can you tell me what it was, what you heard?

14 A. Well, I heard that number 95 had been taken

15 away to the Buk Bijela settlement and that there were

16 around 500 of these Serbs, Chetniks, who had come in

17 from Serbia, and that they had taken them off to Buk

18 Bijela and that she was beaten up there and burnt with

19 cigarettes.

20 Q. But did you see the burns, the wounds?

21 A. No, I did not, because from the 2nd of

22 August, 1992, I never met that individual anymore.

23 Q. Besides the incident you have already

24 described when you were taken out, you together with

25 other women, did you see the accused Kunarac or his men

Page 1487

1 take out women from Partizan?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When did you see that, and who was taken

4 out? Do you recall?

5 A. On one occasion, the first time they took me

6 off, they came back, they got me up again and told me

7 to go out again, and I thought Tolja -- I think Tolja

8 said that they should take me back, because he knew

9 what had been happening to me before that. So then

10 they took out DB, number 87, and number 50, and took

11 them off.

12 Q. You described how on the 2nd of August the

13 accused Kunarac took you out of Partizan and never

14 returned you. Before the 2nd of August, were you ever

15 taken out of Foca to another municipality?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you ever taken to Cajnice?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I was.

19 Q. When did that happen?

20 A. Well, that happened about five to ten days

21 after I had been in the Partizan. Mitar Sipcic arrived

22 with another elderly man -- he had quite a lot of rank,

23 insignia signifying rank -- and with them was this

24 Chetnik leader from Cajnice. I think his name was

25 Kornjaca. That's what they called him. They first

Page 1488

1 came one morning and said allegedly that a bus would

2 come to take us to Goradze. However, nothing came of

3 that. And then they came the next day again and took

4 out a group of us, 20, I think. They loaded us up into

5 a kombi van and took us to Cajnice.

6 Before that, from the KP Dom at Foca, they

7 had taken 16 men in the truck with us. In Cajnice, we

8 spent two nights, in schools, at Mijeljina.

9 The next day they brought two more women and

10 three children. And when they took us towards Cajnice,

11 I heard them talking over a Motorola and say,

12 "Everything's been settled. Everything's all right.

13 There won't be any problems." Allegedly there was to

14 be an exchange, that our people from Goradze were going

15 to bring civilians to be exchanged. However, that was

16 a lie. And when they talked, I also heard them say,

17 "Proceed according to orders." And if there was an

18 exchange, then they were to shoot us in the back.

19 When they brought us to Cajnice, a lot of

20 locals turned up: women and men, bringing foods and

21 cigarettes, sandwiches, milk, to prove that they were

22 good people, hospitable people, and that they were

23 really sorry because of what was happening to us. But

24 after just a little time went by, the television crew

25 turned up and filmed all this to show what wonderful

Page 1489

1 people these were, how hospitable they were. And that

2 went on and they took us back the second night to Foca,

3 to the Partizan.

4 Q. Do you know why they took you back to

5 Partizan, why not let you stay in Cajnice, or release

6 you?

7 A. We begged them to let us go in Pljevlja, as

8 we had passed through Montenegro. Because, after all,

9 that was free territory and another state. But they

10 wouldn't let us. "We have orders to take you back to

11 Foca," they said. And so these 16 men were taken back

12 to the KP, the correctional centre, and we were taken

13 to Partizan.

14 Q. I wish to clarify some matters related to the

15 period while you were kept in Klanfa's apartment. You

16 said that all four of you girls were raped by the

17 accused Kovac and by Jagos Kostic. Did you see the

18 accused Kovac rape AB?

19 A. No, I did not see it.

20 Q. How do you then know it?

21 A. Whatever was happening, we would always tell

22 each other about it.

23 Q. You also said on Thursday that after some

24 time the accused stopped raping you personally, but

25 brought men into the apartment to rape you, and you

Page 1490

1 have already described this incident with the accused

2 Vukovic. Do you recall if the accused Kovac and

3 Vukovic on this occasion came together into the

4 apartment, or was one already there and the other

5 came? Do you recall how that -- these details?

6 A. No, I do not remember.

7 Q. Did the accused Kovac order you to go to

8 Vukovic, or how else did you end up to be together with

9 Vukovic in the kitchen?

10 A. No. He made me go with him to the room --

11 rather, the kitchen.

12 Q. When you say "he," you mean the accused

13 Vukovic?

14 A. No. I mean Kovac.

15 Q. Besides the two incidents you have already

16 described when you were raped or told to go with other

17 men, were you raped by other than Vukovic and the other

18 person you mentioned while in Klanfa's apartment?

19 A. I just know about Slavo Ivanovic, who was

20 brought over to me. And as I didn't want to go to the

21 room with him, he slapped me first, and I cried. And

22 then AB went with Ivanovic into the room. I don't

23 remember any longer whether anyone else raped me there.

24 Q. The accused Kovac and Vukovic, at that time

25 did they wear uniforms?

Page 1491

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did they belong to any particular unit?

3 A. I think that they belonged to the group led

4 by Brana Cosovic. That was Dragan Nikolic.

5 Q. How did you hear about this?

6 A. I heard it from them personally. Because

7 this Dragan Nikolic, at the beginning of the war in

8 Foca, was killed somewhere, and he was a great friend

9 of theirs, a kum of Pero Elez. And then they called

10 the group after him; that is, they gave the group the

11 name of Dragan Nikolic.

12 Q. While you were in Klanfa's apartment, did you

13 have to do household work?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What did you have to do?

16 A. Well, we had to clean up, to wash their

17 clothes. We didn't have to cook, because there was

18 nothing to cook. They would sometimes bring us some

19 canned food and we would eat it. And that's how it

20 was.

21 Q. You said that Kovac was the one, the accused

22 Kovac was the one who beat you the most, and you have

23 already described the incident where -- one of these

24 incidents. Can you tell me when else he beat you, and

25 why?

Page 1492













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 1493

1 A. That night, when they came drunk, he and this

2 Serbian man called Jadzic Vojkan, when they came from

3 the cafe, prior to that I and number 87 had had a drink

4 or two because we thought it would be easier for us

5 that way. And when they came into the apartment and

6 when he saw that I was drunk, he started beating me and

7 saying why had I had a drink.

8 Q. When was that?

9 A. This was about a night or two prior to us, me

10 and AB, being taken away from there and given to

11 others.

12 Q. At the conclusion of Thursday's court

13 session, you described what happened after the accused

14 Kovac took you and 87 out of Tuta's apartment and how

15 you then returned to Klanfa's apartment at the end.

16 Can you tell me what happened afterwards to AS?

17 A. AS, that night, was taken by Jagos Kostic to

18 Donje Polje, to an apartment there, because these

19 people were shooting very fiercely. So AS took her to

20 Donje Polje, to an apartment there.

21 Q. How do you know this?

22 A. I know this because the next day when all

23 this was happening and when we went back to the

24 apartment, Jagos brought AS to the apartment, and then

25 she told us that she had been at an apartment in Donje

Page 1494

1 Polje.

2 Q. Did she continue to stay further on in

3 Klanfa's apartment or was she taken elsewhere?

4 A. She stayed.

5 Q. What happened to AB?

6 A. The next day when we got up, Klanfa came and

7 said that Dragec would come to take AB. As for me, he

8 said that Tuta and Zelja would come to take me away.

9 And after a while, Dragec came, and when he rang the

10 bell, Klanfa saw through the peephole that Dragec was

11 counting some money, and so he laughed, saying, "Look,

12 this one is counting his notes." And Dragec came in,

13 and I saw him give him 200 German marks. He took the

14 young girl and went off.

15 After awhile, Tuta and Zelja stopped in front

16 of the building, with a car, and told me to follow

17 them. I went out, got into the car, and they drove me

18 towards Aladza. And when you come out of the park, the

19 first building there, they stopped in front of it and

20 climbed upstairs into that building. They spent some

21 time there, and when they came back, they told me that

22 I was going with AB.

23 I went upstairs, as I was terribly frightened

24 and I was crying. Then Dragec screamed at me, "What

25 are you crying for? Don't you know that I have saved

Page 1495

1 your life? They wanted to kill you now. Do you know

2 that they wanted to kill you?" And so when he said

3 that, I calmed down a little. I realised what was

4 happening.

5 Q. When did you see AB for the last time?

6 A. We were together for quite some time after

7 that, probably some two months or so, because Dragec

8 would sell us everywhere, and he would do business with

9 us. About 15 days or a month later, we were separated,

10 and Jasko Gazdic took her away and after that I never

11 saw her again. But I am quite sure, and I know very

12 well that Kovac himself knows exactly what happened to

13 that little girl. She's a 12-year-old child.

14 And I must also add something I forgot to

15 mention. In his apartment there was a glass full of

16 gold teeth, and when I saw that, I was horrified. And

17 then he asked me, "What did you see? What did you

18 see?" And I said, "I didn't see anything."

19 Q. When did you yourself leave Foca?

20 A. I left Foca on the 5th of March, 1993.

21 Q. How did you get out?

22 A. With the help of two Serbs who helped me and

23 took me across to the free territory.

24 Q. You have described to us eight months of

25 detention and sexual assaults. Did this affect your

Page 1496

1 physical health?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Which way? What?

4 A. Well, I still am traumatised, I still have

5 bad dreams, I'm still full of fear, and I don't think I

6 shall ever get over it, because if something scares me,

7 I start shivering.

8 Q. On Thursday you identified the accused

9 Dragoljub Kunarac in the courtroom. Were you ever

10 shown a photo board by the investigators of the

11 Prosecutor's Office?

12 A. Yes. I think I was, yes.

13 Q. Do you recall when that was?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Could it have been in April 1998? That means

16 more than a year -- almost two years ago?

17 A. Possibly. I don't remember exactly.

18 Q. Do you remember if you recognised anybody on

19 this photo board?

20 A. I did not.

21 Q. Why not?

22 A. I think they were copies of photographs. So

23 it was not easy to recognise them, and as so many years

24 had gone by, I couldn't really recollect.

25 Q. But you recognised Dragoljub Kunarac in this

Page 1497

1 courtroom. Are you sure that it is him?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. You have also recognised the accused Zoran

4 Vukovic in this courtroom, and you said you did not

5 know him from before the war?

6 A. I did not.

7 Q. Did you know any other Zoran Vukovic from

8 before the war?

9 A. Personally I did not, but I knew one who

10 lived in Brod, and then he moved to Foca, and his

11 nickname was Kifla.

12 Q. And you know this Kifla?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you describe this Kifla/Zoran Vukovic, to

15 us?

16 A. Well, he was also brown-haired. He was quite

17 fat, of medium build.

18 Q. What about his age?

19 A. I don't know exactly how old he was, but I

20 think he was over 30.

21 Q. Did you see this Kifla/Zoran Vukovic, during

22 the war?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. When did you see him?

25 A. Well, I think it was sometime in February

Page 1498

1 1993, January or February, because Dragec sold me to

2 Todovic, and he kept me in a studio in the Mahala, and

3 one night he and another teacher called Dzurovic came

4 over. He used to teach physical education in the Brod

5 elementary school. They broke down the door and he

6 they entered into the studio I was living in.

7 Q. What did they do?

8 A. Then Kifla raped me, and then he took me to

9 his apartment where his mother was living. I know he

10 cursed his mother. He said all kinds of nasty things

11 to her, and she was an elderly and sick woman. And he

12 kept me there all night in his apartment, and he raped

13 me there too. And then the next day, about midday, he

14 took me back to the studio.

15 Q. This Kifla/Zoran Vukovic, did you ever see

16 him in Buk Bijela, in high school, or Partizan?

17 A. I did not. I don't remember.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There's no more

19 questions for me to ask.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination by the

21 Defence.

22 Mr. Prodanovic.

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

24 Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

Page 1499

1 Q. Good morning, Witness. My first question:

2 How many statements in all did you give to the

3 representatives of the International Tribunal in The

4 Hague?

5 A. One.

6 Q. Did I hear you properly? Did you say "one"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember when you made that

9 statement?

10 A. I do not.

11 Q. In the meantime, did you make statements to

12 another body apart from the representatives of the

13 International Tribunal in The Hague?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. Did you make a statement to the State

16 Security Service in Sarajevo?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. Was this on the 22nd of August, 1996?

19 A. I don't remember. It might have been.

20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the

21 witness be shown the statements made by her to the

22 investigators of the International Tribunal. There are

23 two statements, rather than one, as the witness

24 claims. And could she also be shown the statement she

25 gave to the State Security Service in Sarajevo.

Page 1500

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The statement

2 dated 6th of March, 1998 will be marked D23, Defence

3 Exhibit D23. The statement given by the witness on the

4 15th and 18th of November, 1995 will be marked D24,

5 Defence Exhibit D24. And the statement of the witness

6 given on the 22nd of August, 1996, this has been given

7 to the registrar only in B/C/S. I would like to know

8 the position of the Chamber. Can we mark this

9 document, although we have been given only a version in

10 B/C/S?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, how come there is no

12 English or French, but particularly English, for this

13 Chamber?

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

15 we were given this by the Prosecution. I do not

16 recollect whether there was an English version.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we have a

18 draft translation, and as far as I know, but I would

19 have to check in the documents, you got it from us.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: We can go ahead, Madam

21 Registrar, to get it in, on the condition that the

22 Prosecution will give us an English version later.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's not a problem at

24 all.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The statement

Page 1501

1 dated 22nd of August, 1996, in B/C/S, will be marked

2 D26, and these documents, all this evidence, is

3 confidential.

4 The last exhibit is marked D25, and not D26.

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Will you please look at these statements, and

7 can you confirm that they are your statements?

8 A. They are.

9 Q. So can we agree now that you gave two

10 statements to the investigators of the Tribunal, and

11 not one, as you said today?

12 A. Possibly, but I don't really remember. After

13 all, some time has gone by, and I don't recollect

14 everything with precision, whether it was one or two.

15 I know I made the statement. I wasn't shy about it. I

16 just wanted the whole world to know what was

17 happening.

18 Q. Did you tell the State Security Service that

19 you had made a statement to the representatives of the

20 International Tribunal?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. What did the representatives of the State

23 Security Service tell you as to why they were calling

24 you to make a statement?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 1502

1 Q. Did they say that you had to make a statement

2 which would be used before the International Tribunal

3 in The Hague?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. Will you please tell us how the interview was

6 conducted by the State Security Service in Sarajevo?

7 Did you make the statement in Sarajevo or in some other

8 location?

9 A. Normally the same way as any other statement;

10 in Sarajevo, yes.

11 Q. Did the representatives of the State Security

12 Service put questions to you, or did they tell you to

13 recount what you knew about the events at the time of

14 the conflict in Foca municipality?

15 A. They asked me some questions. I also

16 recounted what had happened.

17 Q. Do you remember the names of the persons who

18 interviewed you, and was a record keeper present during

19 the interview?

20 A. Yes, but I don't remember the names.

21 Q. Did you dictate what would be written into

22 your statement, or did somebody else dictate it?

23 A. Nobody could dictate my statement other than

24 me.

25 Q. Do I take it, then, that you told the record

Page 1503

1 keeper what to write in the statement?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you agree with what had been written, and

4 did you have any comments to make?

5 A. I did agree, because I signed the document.

6 I don't know whether I made any comments or not.

7 Q. Do you remember what you said on that

8 occasion, and do you abide by your statement?

9 A. Well, I think I remember.

10 Q. Did you tell the truth?

11 A. I think I did.

12 Q. Do you remember whether the record keeper

13 signed that statement?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. Did you remember the events you talked about

16 on that occasion well?

17 A. Yes, of course I did.

18 Q. Did you speak about the events in the same

19 way that you spoke about them when you were in front of

20 the representatives of the International Tribunal?

21 A. I think I did.

22 Q. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that answer? I

23 didn't understand.

24 A. I think I did, yes.

25 Q. Could you tell us at whose initiative this

Page 1504

1 came about, that is to say, the second interview came

2 about?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. You said that you worked in the Sipad Maglic

5 enterprise as a cleaning lady?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. You also said in your previous statements

8 that you worked with four Serb ladies. Were they also

9 cleaning ladies?

10 A. Yes, they were.

11 Q. In addition to those four Serb ladies, did

12 you also work with some Muslim ladies?

13 A. Yes, I did. With one.

14 Q. What did you say?

15 A. With one.

16 Q. You said that your colleagues, the Serbian

17 women, did not turn up for work.

18 A. No, they didn't.

19 Q. Did your colleague the Muslim turn up?

20 A. No, she didn't, because she was already

21 retired.

22 Q. Was it the thermoelectric power station

23 within the Sipad Maglic firm where you worked?

24 A. Do I have to answer that question?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Witness, you should.

Page 1505

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Who was the director of the thermoelectric

4 power station?

5 A. It was Nenad Matovic.

6 Q. Would you tell us what Omer Hasanbegovic was?

7 A. He was also a director, but for the new

8 electric power, which was outside this compound.

9 Q. Do you know who held higher rank?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. What did Djordje Pavlovic do?

12 A. Shift leader.

13 Q. Who was your immediate superior? To whom

14 were you responsible?

15 A. Well, we had -- that is to say, there was

16 Hajrudin Selimovic. He was the shift leader, foreman,

17 and then -- he was the foreman, and then every two days

18 there would be other shift leaders.

19 Q. Was Hajrudin a Muslim?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. Do you know how the various political parties

22 came to be formed?

23 A. I don't.

24 Q. Do you know which party was formed in Bosnia

25 first?

Page 1506













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 1507

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. You said in your statement that the division

3 between the Serbs and Muslims began with the Focatrans

4 incident. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. You also said that this was after the

7 establishment of the different political parties. The

8 question is: Are you certain that the Focatrans

9 incident came after the formation of the political

10 parties?

11 A. It was before.

12 Q. What did you say?

13 A. I think it was before.

14 Q. In your statement you claim that it was

15 after.

16 A. Well, I don't remember.

17 Q. Before the 6th of April, 1992, did you ever

18 hear about the problems in the former

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes, I did. At the last congress in

21 Sarajevo, Karadzic said that if war broke out, the

22 Muslims would disappear. They would disappear.

23 Q. Do you know what happened before that, before

24 he made that statement?

25 A. I don't. I don't remember.

Page 1508

1 Q. From that assembly, that rally, is that the

2 only excerpt, the only statement you know about?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you, and if so in what way, hear that

5 conflicts had broken out and that there was an armed

6 struggle? I'm thinking about before the 6th of April,

7 1992.

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Can you tell us whether you heard who the

10 conflict was between?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. In your statements, you use the word

13 "aggression." Do you know what that word means?

14 A. Well, that the Serbs hit Bosnia, that they

15 attacked the Muslims, unarmed Muslim people.

16 Q. Do you use that word in your regular speech?

17 A. Well, I don't remember. I don't know.

18 Q. Who told you that there was no work to do

19 when you turned up to work on the 6th of April, 1992?

20 A. Nenad Matovic.

21 Q. Where was this said?

22 A. In the enterprise, in the compound.

23 Q. Did he collect you all up in one spot to tell

24 you this or were you told this on your own,

25 individually?

Page 1509

1 A. There were only four of us in the whole

2 factory. When he came, we were all in a group. We

3 didn't know what was going on.

4 Q. Did this refer to the Serbs as well as the

5 Muslims?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were there any problems in your enterprise

8 between the Serbs and Muslims?

9 A. As far as I know there weren't, no, although

10 they had started to separate. But personally speaking,

11 I and my colleagues -- I had no problems with my

12 colleagues.

13 Q. You said that on the 6th of April, 1992, when

14 you were told that there was no work, that you went to

15 Foca. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. What time was it when you left?

18 A. I think it was already about 9.00. Half past

19 eight, 9.00. I don't remember exactly.

20 Q. You say here that you went to Foca with two

21 girlfriends.

22 A. As far as I remember, they were two men, male

23 friends.

24 Q. Are they Muslim ladies?

25 A. They were two Muslim men.

Page 1510

1 Q. I apologise. Perhaps there's a mistake in

2 the translation, but in the statement you say with two

3 women friends.

4 A. As far as I know, they were two men who were

5 with me. One was my relative and another was a

6 friend.

7 Q. Well, it's not important. In your statement

8 of 1995, November of 1995, in your first statement, at

9 paragraph 4, you say that you went to Foca with a

10 relative. Is that true?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. How did you go to Foca?

13 A. By bus. By bus.

14 Q. What was happening in Foca on that particular

15 day?

16 A. Well, there were vehicles moving around.

17 There were slogans shouted, "We are for peace,"

18 although I wasn't quite clear on what was happening.

19 Q. You said that a larger group of people had

20 gathered together and that they had slogans with "We

21 want peace," written up on them. Who were these

22 people?

23 A. I think they were Muslims.

24 Q. So you still claim, even today, that they

25 were Muslims?

Page 1511

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many people had gathered at that rally?

3 A. Well, it wasn't a rally. They moved around

4 town in cars. They were going around town in cars,

5 although there were microphones set up in front of the

6 municipality building, and loudspeakers. Speeches were

7 to be held, but none of that happened, actually.

8 Q. How do you know that most of these people

9 were Muslims?

10 A. Well, I know, because I knew quite a lot of

11 them.

12 Q. Did you remain until the end of the rally?

13 A. No. I left at 10.15, by bus. I went home.

14 Q. You said that the Muslims carried slogans for

15 peace and the Serbs left Foca with their families. Did

16 they leave en masse?

17 A. Yes. That's correct.

18 Q. How do you know this?

19 A. Well, they prepared themselves and put tanks

20 around, positioned tanks around and accompanied their

21 families, their women and children to Serbia and

22 Montenegro, whereas our people didn't know about what

23 was going on or what was being prepared. Had they

24 known, it wouldn't have happened. They wouldn't have

25 allowed it to happen, because all of us could have gone

Page 1512

1 off somewhere and saved our lives and not to wait for

2 the Chetniks to arrive and slaughter us.

3 Q. Do you personally know of any Serbian family

4 which left Foca that day?

5 A. Yes, (redacted), the Serbs who were in the

6 village.

7 Q. Can you give us a name?

8 A. Rosa Zivanovic. She personally went off with

9 her children to Montenegro.

10 Q. And that's all you know?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Do you know whether a Muslim family left Foca

13 at all?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What does "no" mean? You know or nobody

16 left?

17 A. I do not know because I was not in Foca.

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps this

19 is a good time to break, Your Honour. I'm looking at

20 the clock and see that we have come up to our break.

21 Perhaps we could continue afterwards.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll break now until

23 1130 hours.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

Page 1513

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic. You're

2 continuing with cross-examination.

3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

4 Your Honour.

5 Q. You said that this protest rally was

6 organised by a group of citizen of the Muslim

7 ethnicity. My question is the following: Do you know

8 that in Foca there was an association of civilians who

9 were against nationalist parties?

10 A. No, I'm not aware.

11 Q. Do you know that in Foca rallies were being

12 held to stress the negativeness of the SDA and SDS

13 parties?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Did you ever attend one of these rallies?

16 A. Yes, in Foca, when the SDA party was formed.

17 Q. I don't think we understood each other. I

18 asked you whether you know that in Foca rallies were

19 held, associations of citizens who were against

20 nationalist parties, and that at these rallies they

21 indicated the negativeness of the SDS and SDA parties.

22 A. No, I don't know.

23 Q. Do you know about this rally that was held in

24 front of the municipality building that you mentioned?

25 Did this group of citizens' association have

Page 1514

1 representatives asking to be -- to have a meeting with

2 the members of the government and the municipality?

3 A. There was nobody in front of the municipal

4 building. I just said that there were microphones

5 there and loudspeakers and that some speeches were to

6 be held there, but there was nobody in front of the

7 municipal building except for a few individuals.

8 Q. How do you know that, when you said that you

9 didn't stay till the end of the rally?

10 A. Well, when I was personally there, when I was

11 present there, there was nobody there. I don't know

12 what happened afterwards.

13 Q. So you say that there was a microphone there

14 and loudspeakers.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do the following names mean anything to you:

17 Novica Kostovic and Dr. Zija Janovic. One was a Serb,

18 the other was a Muslim.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you still maintain that nobody made a

21 speech?

22 A. I didn't say that anybody had made a speech,

23 nor do I know if anybody made a speech, nor can I say.

24 Q. Let us move on to some more concrete

25 questions now. When were you transferred from the

Page 1515

1 secondary school building to the Partizan Sports Hall?

2 A. Well, about 15 days after I had been in the

3 secondary school centre. I don't know the exact date.

4 Q. Do you still maintain that you were kept in

5 the Partizan for 15 days as well?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Do we agree in saying the following: If you

8 were brought to the school on the 3rd of July, and

9 stayed at the secondary school centre to the 18th or

10 the 19th of July, that is, the 15 days you say, which

11 makes it the 18th or 19th of July; would that be

12 correct?

13 A. Well, yes, thereabouts. I'm not quite

14 certain of the exact day, exactly how much, but yes, 10

15 to 15 days.

16 Q. Did anybody tell you why you were being

17 transferred to Partizan?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Do you know that in the school, to take your

20 place, Serbian refugees arrived?

21 A. I don't know that.

22 Q. Do you know, or did you hear of the

23 following: that there was a massacre of the civilian

24 population of the Jabuka village, when many tens of

25 civilians were killed?

Page 1516

1 A. I don't know about that.

2 Q. Did you have freedom of movement in Partizan?

3 A. Well --

4 Q. Well, I'm talking about the times when you

5 were not taken out, to clarify my question.

6 A. Well, inside, yes. In the hall we could go

7 to the toilet. Where else would we go?

8 Q. Were you able to go outside, in front of the

9 Partizan, to the compound outside?

10 A. Well, the children went outside mostly.

11 Q. Did you go outside?

12 A. Sometimes, for brief periods. I would always

13 wait to see when one of the Chetniks would come to take

14 me out, so I hid in the hall rather than going outside.

15 Q. How many guards were there in all? Can you

16 tell us that?

17 A. In the Partizan, you mean?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Each shift had two.

20 Q. Did you know any of the guards?

21 A. Personally, I did not, but I got to know them

22 then. But I did know -- just one moment. I knew one

23 man. I don't remember his name. I think his name

24 might have been Bogdan.

25 Q. How did you know him? Because he was good or

Page 1517

1 because he was evil?

2 A. He was good. He was a good man.

3 Q. In your statement you mentioned Bosko Partalo

4 and Sonivoje Lnu.

5 A. Well, I didn't know them when I got there,

6 but I got to know them afterwards personally, and they

7 were very good people; I can't say they weren't,

8 because when they were on guard in front of Partizan,

9 then none of us girls was taken out, nor could a single

10 Chetnik come in to take us out while those two were on

11 guard. And that was the happiest time for us, when

12 those two particular men were on guard.

13 Q. Did the guards prevent you from moving

14 around?

15 A. When there was a danger of any kind, yes.

16 Q. Could you tell us how long they did their

17 shifts? Do you remember for how long their shifts

18 were?

19 A. Well, first of all -- well, mostly first,

20 second, and third shift. How long they would stay, I

21 don't know exactly. They would be -- two days was the

22 first shift, two days was the second shift, and two

23 days was the third shift.

24 Q. Does that mean when they were on duty you

25 were protected?

Page 1518

1 A. Yes. We were quiet then. We were left

2 alone.

3 Q. Did you talk to any of the guards?

4 A. We talked to these two, yes, quite a lot.

5 Q. What did you talk about?

6 A. Well, I don't really remember all the things

7 we talked about, the details.

8 Q. Do you know what their task was?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you remember whether a woman, a Serb

11 woman, lived next door to the Partizan?

12 A. Yes, she did.

13 Q. Do you know her name?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Could you give us her name?

16 A. Her name was Vida. I don't know her surname.

17 Q. Was she a good woman or a bad woman?

18 A. She was a good woman. She saved us from a

19 Chetnik on one particular day in Partizan, when he

20 stormed the building all bloody, and when they had a

21 shootout amongst themselves. And he came up there to

22 us, to the Partizan, with a rifle cocked at us and

23 wanted to kill us all. Then she came into the hall and

24 calmed him down and took him away to her place to have

25 a cup of coffee.

Page 1519

1 Q. Did any of you go to her flat for a coffee?

2 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

3 Q. Did any of you go to the shops when you went

4 outside in front of Partizan?

5 A. Yes. The women with a little money that they

6 had managed to hide away and not be taken away by the

7 Chetniks would go out to buy a loaf or two of bread,

8 because we had nothing to eat in Partizan.

9 Q. So that means that nobody stopped you from

10 going to the shop.

11 A. They didn't stop us, but we also went

12 secretly. I didn't personally, but I knew women who

13 would sneak out.

14 Q. If we have already agreed that in the

15 secondary school centre you stayed for about 15 days

16 and that you arrived on the 3rd of July, may we take it

17 that you were transferred on the 18th of July or the

18 19th of July, 1992 from Partizan?

19 A. Well, I said I don't remember the exact day

20 or date. I know that I was detained in the secondary

21 school centre for about 10 to 15 days and that that was

22 the same amount of time that I was held in Partizan. I

23 was taken off there and never returned.

24 Q. I would just like to remind you, on the basis

25 of the statements you gave, that you said that you had

Page 1520













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Page 1521

1 stayed in the school for some 15 days and in the

2 Partizan Sports Hall for some 15 days. So I'm trying

3 to work out the dates in that way.

4 Would you tell us, please, in the course of

5 those 15 days, which was the time you spent in

6 Partizan, how many times were you taken out of

7 Partizan?

8 A. Well, practically every night. I don't know

9 whether I stayed even one night. When my grandmother

10 hid me under her, when she slept over me, perhaps that

11 night.

12 Q. But you said last time that you spent three

13 nights hidden away by your grandmother, when she lay on

14 top of you to hide you.

15 A. Well, I can't remember all the details now.

16 Q. Let me express my concern. You don't seem to

17 remember the details when I ask you, whereas you

18 remember every detail and explain in great detail what

19 happened to you when the Prosecution asks you the

20 questions. Why this difference? Because I'm asking

21 concrete questions.

22 A. Well, I say what I remember and what I know

23 about. Perhaps I said something I don't remember. I

24 mean, this is stressful for me.

25 Q. Can you remember who took you out of Partizan

Page 1522

1 first? When were you first taken out and by whom?

2 A. I think his name was Stankovic, Dragec

3 Stankovic.

4 Q. Did you say "Dragec Stankovic"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In your 1995 statement, page 10 of that

7 statement, paragraph 3, you say, "I was first taken out

8 in the middle of July 1992," and then you describe

9 Kunarac and his people. What is the truth of these two

10 facts?

11 A. Well, I don't remember. I think it's all

12 down in the statement, because, as I say, quite a lot

13 of time has gone by.

14 Q. Can you tell us when your memory's served you

15 better, a few years ago or today?

16 A. Well, a few days ago, obviously -- a few

17 years ago, obviously. I am trying to forget everything

18 now, everything that happened to me.

19 Q. But you must -- I think you'll agree that

20 your memory has been very good in answering the

21 questions asked by the Prosecutor and that you

22 remembered details which you did not state when you

23 gave your statements.

24 A. Well, possibly.

25 Q. Can you remember the date when you were taken

Page 1523

1 out for the last time from Partizan?

2 A. The 2nd of August.

3 Q. Can you tell us: When you were taken out the

4 first time, you said that this was by -- that Dragec

5 Stankovic took you out first. Who took you out

6 afterwards and where did they take you?

7 A. After that there was Zaga to Aladza. I've

8 already said that. And then there were four others. I

9 don't know their names. They took us out to Masala.

10 And then there was Tuta. And then --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you're not expecting

12 the witness to recount the evidence she gave in chief.

13 So if you're cross-examining her or you're trying to

14 challenge her, you should put direct questions

15 challenging her evidence in chief, not asking her to

16 repeat the evidence she has already given.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

18 I'm not getting the interpretation of what you have

19 just said.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I was saying that do not ask

21 the witness to repeat the evidence she gave in chief.

22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] There's no

23 translation.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: May I find out from the

25 interpreters, please. Do we have a problem?

Page 1524

1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. It's

2 all right now, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: I was saying don't ask the

4 witness to repeat the evidence she gave in

5 examination-in-chief, because we have heard all that,

6 instead of her repeating it. It will be a waste of

7 time. So you simply ask her questions if you are

8 challenging that, and you put to her what your version

9 or the alleged version of your accused is. Don't let

10 her repeat the evidence in chief.

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

12 Your Honour. I shall do my best.

13 Q. Could you tell us: How many times in all

14 were you taken out during the time you spent in

15 Partizan, from the 18th of July until the 3rd of

16 August?

17 A. I don't know the exact number.

18 Q. Can you tell us approximately when you went

19 to be exchanged to Cajnice?

20 A. This was after spending five to ten days in

21 Partizan.

22 Q. Was a person mentioned on the list in front

23 of you with you on that occasion?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can you remember how many days you spent in

Page 1525

1 Cajnice?

2 A. I've already said. For two nights.

3 Q. In your statement to the aide, you said that

4 you spent one night in the small school and that you

5 spent two other nights in the larger school.

6 A. That is correct. No, I don't remember

7 exactly. I just know that we spent one night in the

8 small school, and I don't remember how many nights we

9 spent in the big school, whether it was one or two.

10 Q. Let me remind you that in that statement, you

11 also said that some persons on the list in front of you

12 were exchanged with you. What is correct?

13 A. You mean the women on this list? Oh, yes.

14 Yes, they did go with me.

15 Q. Without mentioning their names, can you tell

16 us the numbers?

17 A. DB, 87, 189, 48, 74, and 88.

18 Q. Can you tell us exactly how many times you

19 were taken to the Aladza, as in the first statement you

20 said five times and during your examination-in-chief

21 you said twice.

22 A. Twice, as far as I can remember.

23 Q. Can you agree with me that there were days

24 when you spent several days in Partizan without being

25 taken out at all?

Page 1526

1 A. I don't remember. There may have been a day

2 or two.

3 Q. In your statement you said that on one

4 occasion you hid under your grandmother for three days,

5 then after -- later on you said for two nights no one

6 took you out, and so on. I don't want to mention all

7 the occasions that your statements differ.

8 A. I do not remember the exact number of days

9 when I was left alone.

10 Q. Can you tell us how many periods there were

11 when you were not taken out?

12 A. No, but not many.

13 Q. Could you tell us how the soldiers who came

14 to take women out were dressed?

15 A. In camouflage uniforms.

16 Q. Did they have any insignia on their uniforms?

17 A. They had the Chetnik cockade.

18 Q. Can you explain to us where, on what part of

19 their uniforms, they had those cockades?

20 A. Mostly on their caps, on their sleeves.

21 Q. Did Zaga wear a cockade on his head?

22 A. I don't think so. I don't think he wore a

23 hat at all. He had a lot of dark hair. He looked also

24 sort of --

25 Q. Do you know the names of those soldiers who

Page 1527

1 came to take you out in Partizan?

2 A. Yes, I knew more or less all of them.

3 Q. Can you give us some names?

4 A. I've already said.

5 Q. How do you know their names?

6 A. Because I learnt -- I wasn't there for a day

7 or two; I stayed there for eight months. Of course I

8 learnt what their names were.

9 Q. You mentioned Montenegrin soldiers who took

10 you to the Aladza.

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Who in particular?

13 A. There was Zaga and there was Bane, a

14 Montenegrin. He was in Kunarac's escort.

15 Q. How did you know that they were

16 Montenegrins? Did they have an accent?

17 A. Yes, they did. It was enough for them to say

18 "Oli ti samnom u Niksic," which means "Will you come

19 to Niksic with me?" in dialect.

20 Q. Did Zaga use the same accent, or did he speak

21 in the way that the people of Foca spoke?

22 A. He didn't have an accent. He spoke as the

23 people of Foca speak.

24 Q. Did they physically abuse you when they took

25 you to the house? I'm thinking of those two incidents

Page 1528

1 that you mentioned.

2 A. What do you mean, "physically"? Do you mean

3 did they beat me?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. No, they did not.

6 Q. Were they drunk when they raped you?

7 A. Well, I really don't know, but in any event

8 they didn't appear to be normal, because a normal man

9 would never do anything like that; a normal civilised

10 man wouldn't do that.

11 Q. Let's go back to this second incident of the

12 2nd of August that you described. Was it dark when you

13 were taken to the house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The four of you who were taken there, as you

16 claim, from Partizan, were you at any point in time in

17 the same room?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see who took number 50 from the room

20 where you were?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was there any light that night?

23 A. There was, until 20 to 12.00, when they blew

24 up the Aladza mosque. When the Aladza mosque was blown

25 up, there was a big explosion, and from the explosion

Page 1529

1 the electricity lines were broken and the electricity

2 went out. I just know that the Montenegrins were

3 yelling and screaming: Why hadn't they been told in

4 advance that this would happen?

5 Q. Was there any street lighting that could

6 illuminate the room?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Can you tell us what the people were doing

9 that you found in the room when you reached it?

10 A. What were they doing? I know that there were

11 three girls, and I know that one of these -- I think he

12 was from Capljina. I know he had white blood-stained

13 boots and he was armed to the teeth. And as she came

14 from Gacko --

15 Q. I'm sorry. I put one question to you and

16 you're answering quite another.

17 A. There were three persons sitting there.

18 Q. Were they in the same room as you before this

19 incident occurred?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was any one of them raped? Do you know that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you write down the name of the person who

24 was raped that evening?

25 A. She's under number 190, then 87.

Page 1530

1 Q. We heard about that, but my question refers

2 to the people you found there already.

3 A. Yes. Number 190.

4 Q. Can you tell us whether you remember whether

5 the person under number 50 told you who took her out

6 that evening and when?

7 A. I remember that it was Gica who took her out

8 that night, but who raped her, I don't know whether it

9 happened at all. I don't know.

10 Q. In your statement you mention a wounded

11 soldier. Was he there the first time you went there,

12 the second time, or both times?

13 A. He was there the first time.

14 Q. Can you describe that person?

15 A. I don't remember at all anymore.

16 Q. Could that person's name have been Goran

17 Milicic?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Can you tell us when the person under 50 and

20 the girls from Gacko were taken out?

21 A. It was roughly after midnight. I know very

22 well that they were there when the Aladza mosque was

23 blown up. And then this Gica came over and called me

24 out. And I begged him to let me go back because I had

25 two children I was looking after whose mother had been

Page 1531

1 killed in the village, so I begged him to let me go

2 back to those children, to the Partizan Hall. Then

3 this man from Capljina took a stick and was going to

4 hit me, and swore at my balija mother, saying, "What

5 are you waiting for? Forget the children." But then

6 he nevertheless said, "You go back," and he took number

7 50.

8 Q. Are you still maintaining that the events of

9 the 2nd of August occurred exactly in the way you

10 described here in court?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Today we learnt that Witness DB will be

13 appearing. Will she be able to confirm this?

14 JUDGE MUMBA: No, you cannot ask this witness

15 that question. She doesn't know what Witness DB is

16 going to tell the Trial Chamber.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

18 I apologise. If I had received the statement much

19 earlier, I would probably have had some questions

20 regarding that statement, to make sure whether the

21 witness is telling the truth. I apologise, though.

22 We're almost done.

23 Q. Did you make a statement in Sarajevo on the

24 2nd of September, 1999, on the basis of which an

25 official report was compiled?

Page 1532

1 A. I did.

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask

3 the usher to show the witness this official report,

4 please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Could I know

6 the date of this official report, please? We do not

7 have this document. We are not in possession of this

8 document.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We received

10 this document from the Prosecution.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have some assistance

12 from the Prosecution, please.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't know at the

14 moment what Mr. Prodanovic is talking about.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher --

16 Counsel, through the usher, can you just show

17 counsel to see whether or not she can remember?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is a document we

19 provided recently to Defence counsel, because we got

20 this document only last week, and it was also a

21 surprise to us. It is a document produced by the local

22 police, and it refers to some photo ID she did in

23 regard of, I think, this Dragan Stankovic.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: And when you say "the local

25 police," which police?

Page 1533

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I mean the police in

2 Sarajevo.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: And it is dated?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It is dated 29th

5 January, 1999 in the text, and on top it is said 1st of

6 February, 1999. This document was disclosed

7 immediately after we received it.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So that means the Chamber

9 doesn't have copies.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honours, and we

11 don't have any translation of the document yet. We

12 only know what --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: What the contents are

14 generally.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Just a draft translation

16 of what is shown.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, you understand

18 the problem here? Let me explain. When you are

19 dealing with documents which are in Serbo-Croat only

20 and the Bench doesn't have an English copy, for

21 instance, because we are using English, when you use

22 that document to cross-examine the witness, we are not

23 able to follow. You may have your own interpretation

24 of the contents of the document. We may have a

25 different interpretation. So we may want to clarify

Page 1534













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 1535

1 with the witness. So when we don't have the English

2 text, it's difficult for us to control the proceedings

3 or even to follow.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, what we

5 can do, we can provide this draft translation right

6 now. I have it here. But I have only this one copy of

7 this.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher, in the meantime,

9 get us copies. Can you move on to other questions, and

10 as soon as the usher comes back, you can deal with the

11 document. Because it is important, when it comes to

12 documents, for the Trial Chamber to understand what the

13 document is all about to be able to protect the

14 witness.

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 I fully understand that, but I believe that the

17 Prosecution would have that document or, rather, copies

18 of that document for Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Anyway, he's making copies for

20 us. You see, sometimes the Prosecution discloses

21 documents which they don't themselves think may be used

22 in the trial proceedings and they don't find it

23 necessary to provide copies to the Trial Chamber. Now,

24 when you decide to do that, find out from them and make

25 sure that the Trial Chamber has copies. That way we

Page 1536

1 won't waste time.

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I

3 understand, Your Honour, and we'll do our best to avoid

4 repetition of any such difficulties in the future.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Do you have any

6 other questions which are not centred on the document

7 we are waiting for, so that you can proceed and then

8 you can come back to the document.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of

10 course.

11 Q. Do you know that a book has been published in

12 Sarajevo which includes your statement, which is

13 identical to the statements you gave to the

14 investigators of the Tribunal?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you consulted prior to the publication

17 of the book?

18 A. I was not.

19 Q. How do you explain the fact that the

20 publishers had your statement if they didn't consult

21 you?

22 A. I knew that I had made a statement, but there

23 was no talk of a book at the time I gave the

24 statement.

25 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear you.

Page 1537

1 A. Nobody told me, when I gave the statement,

2 that a book would be published.

3 Q. Were you present when the book was presented

4 to the public?

5 A. I was.

6 Q. Were you on the BH television in connection

7 with the same occasion?

8 A. I was.

9 Q. Did you perhaps speak on television?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Was your name and surname visible on

12 television?

13 A. It was.

14 Q. My question then is: Why did you seek

15 protection here in court?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, if I may

17 protect the witness again. That's nothing to do with

18 whatever was happening there. She, at that time, was

19 in free country. She didn't -- you don't ask her that

20 question. All right?

21 JUDGE HUNT: There is, in any event, a vast

22 difference between her making some sort of public

23 appearance on television about the facts which

24 happened, as she puts it, and a revelation of the fact

25 that she's giving evidence in support of the

Page 1538

1 Prosecution case against the particular accused.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the documents? Are

3 they here now?

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In this statement, from which we cannot tell

6 who compiled it, you claimed that you were raped on the

7 2nd of August by Dragan Stankovic, Dragec. However,

8 that is something you didn't tell the Trial Chamber

9 here in court. So which is true? This is at the very

10 end of the report.

11 A. I wasn't going into the details then. I

12 don't remember exactly what I said then.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] So the

14 document dated the 1st of February, 1999 will be D26 of

15 the Defence case and will be registered in a

16 confidential manner, under seal.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Do you perhaps know the reasons why Zaga

19 brought you on the 2nd of August and left you there and

20 left?

21 A. I assume that you know very well why he did

22 that.

23 Q. I'm asking you that because, apparently,

24 access was allowed to everyone to Partizan.

25 A. That is correct.

Page 1539

1 Q. Can you tell us when the reporter came to

2 Partizan and who was with her?

3 A. She was alone. I don't remember the exact

4 date. After the first time we were taken out, when

5 Zaga took us out, he sent her to Partizan. I don't

6 remember when that was.

7 Q. Do you know which one of you spoke to her?

8 A. I don't know who spoke to her. I just know I

9 was lying down on the floor on the mattress, and when I

10 heard her say that she was a reporter from Radio

11 Sarajevo, I said that that wasn't possible. Then she

12 approached me and said, "Don't be afraid of anything.

13 You tell us what happened. Just tell us freely."

14 Q. This wounded soldier who was there in Aladza,

15 was he a young man or an older man?

16 A. He was a younger man.

17 Q. You told us that you too would have fled if

18 you had known that there would be a war. Where would

19 you flee to?

20 A. Where? Well, to the free territory where I

21 could save myself.

22 Q. But my question is connected to the exchange,

23 when you went to Cajnice, you said that you were taken

24 to be exchanged. Were there imprisoned Serb civilians

25 in Gorazde?

Page 1540

1 A. I don't know that, but I heard from this

2 Kornjaca that allegedly there were some and that they

3 should be exchanged. First they said it had been

4 agreed, then nothing would come of it, then what the

5 truth of it was, I really don't know. I have my

6 doubts.

7 Q. And my last question: You said that on the

8 Motorola, you heard the order that it was necessary to

9 act as ordered. On the basis of what do you conclude

10 that they were about to shoot you in the back?

11 A. What else could I expect when you hear that?

12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

13 Your Honours. I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

16 Honour. I have some questions.

17 Before I go on to ask the questions, Your

18 Honours, I should like to request the following: I

19 know and can assume what this witness experienced in

20 the course of those war days, and I know that the Trial

21 Chamber will decide how the witness is to sit and

22 everybody else in the courtroom. However, I should

23 like to ask the witness to sit in a way so as not to

24 ignore the Defence team by turning her back to the

25 Defence counsel while she is giving her answers.

Page 1541

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, the Bench is quite

2 satisfied with the way the witness is sitting in view

3 of what the witness has told the Trial Chamber. Please

4 proceed with your questions. What is important is that

5 the witness can hear you and you can hear her answers.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

7 Honour.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:

9 Q. You said in the statement you gave to the

10 investigators of the Tribunal in November 1995 that

11 nothing special had happened in your village until the

12 3rd of July, 1992. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also said that your village is about ten

15 kilometres away from Foca.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could shooting be heard in your village or

18 the fighting at all which took place in Foca at the

19 beginning of April?

20 A. Yes, and how.

21 Q. From your village can you see Foca or Brod,

22 the town of Brod on the Drina River?

23 A. Brod can be seen but you can't see Foca.

24 Q. While this fighting was going on, what was it

25 precisely that you heard?

Page 1542

1 A. Well, we heard shooting of the tanks or

2 cannons or mortars, heavy machine-guns. All I know is

3 that you can see a lot of fire in Foca.

4 Q. Well, if you can't see Foca from your

5 village, how could you possibly see fire?

6 A. Well, you can see -- when there's shooting,

7 you can see a light. You can see the light from the

8 cannons and guns that go off.

9 Q. Do you know at all at what distance gunfire

10 can be heard, that is to say, the sound of explosions,

11 whether guns, tanks, whatever?

12 A. Well, I don't know the distance, but I do

13 know that we could hear it very well.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar

15 would like to ask you to switch your microphone off,

16 please, while the witness is answering. Thank you.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I

18 forgot. I thought that the technical facilities were

19 better here than they were in Courtroom III.

20 Q. On your statement, page 1, you said that you

21 continued to go about your daily duties, although you

22 were afraid and that that is why you slept in the

23 woods. That's what you said, is it not?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. What were you afraid of precisely?

Page 1543

1 A. What. Well, we were afraid. We were afraid

2 of the Chetniks, the Seselj people. We didn't even

3 think -- we didn't even think of our neighbours. We

4 didn't think they would attack us. But when the attack

5 came, it wasn't the Arkan people or the Seselj people,

6 it was the neighbours. What would I be afraid of?

7 Well, that, because we would listen over Radio Sarajevo

8 what was happening in other towns and villages.

9 Q. I don't quite understand you. If you went

10 about your daily duties regularly and slept in the

11 woods --

12 A. Well, yes. We'd go back home in the morning

13 and go about our business, although us younger ones

14 would spend more time in the woods and the older folk

15 would spend more time at home preparing food, which

16 they would bring to us in the evening, that kind of

17 thing.

18 Q. When the locals had surrendered their

19 weapons, were you abused at all? Were you physically

20 attacked or threatened by anybody?

21 A. No. No. No. Until one particular occasion

22 when they came to above the village, and I've already

23 talked about that. They fired pistols, but not until

24 the 3rd of July, until the actual attack.

25 Q. Do you know anybody in your village who had

Page 1544

1 weapons?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Could you tell us who that was? What did you

4 say?

5 A. No, I can't.

6 Q. Why not?

7 A. I can't.

8 Q. You're a witness here and are under oath, and

9 it is your duty to tell the truth and to answer the

10 questions that I ask you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: She may not be able to mention

12 the names because of protection matters. She can write

13 them down for you if you wish.

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

15 the witness, in her statement given to the authorities

16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, enumerated those people who had

17 weapons and surrendered them. I just wanted to check

18 that statement of hers.

19 A. The statement is correct, but I cannot give

20 you the names.

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You cannot give the names because you don't

23 remember them or because you do not wish to do so?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness will not answer

25 that. Proceed with another question, Mr. Kolesar.

Page 1545

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I did tell you, Mr. Kolesar,

3 that if you want the names, let her write them down.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution. Yes.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have the statement

7 here in front of me, and at least two of these people

8 are relatives of the witness. So if she would say the

9 name, I mean, her identity may be more obvious.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's why I was telling

11 Mr. Kolesar to give her a piece of paper. Then she can

12 write down the names. Because that piece of paper will

13 be produced under seal.

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should like

15 to ask the usher --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you repeat the question so

17 that she knows exactly what she's being asked to do?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

19 counsel. Microphone, please.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know anybody in your village who had

23 weapons? If so, please write down their names.

24 A. After surrendering, after the weapons were

25 surrendered, you mean?

Page 1546

1 Q. Before the weapons were surrendered.

2 A. Before?

3 [Witness complies]

4 THE REGISTRAR: The document, the exhibit,

5 will be D27 of the Defence and will be under seal.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Do we agree that in your statement, the

8 statement that you gave to the investigators of the

9 International Tribunal in The Hague, on page 2, last

10 paragraph, and last sentence -- if you have that

11 statement, please take at that look at it -- that you

12 said the following: that your family did not have any

13 weapons, but that other locals acquiesced?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the statement that you made to the

16 authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 22nd of

17 August, 1996, you state, among other things, that your

18 brother, [redacted], surrendered an M-48 rifle.

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --


22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think it's not

23 appropriate that he mentions the name of the brother.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel, you recall that?

25 The name you mention will lead to the identification of

Page 1547

1 the witness, so it should be struck out of the public

2 records.

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I apologise,

4 Your Honour. Let me reformulate that question. But I

5 cannot avoid asking whether, on the list that the

6 witness has given to the Court, it included the name of

7 her brother.

8 JUDGE HUNT: It did.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did you tell the authorities of the Republic

12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina in your statement of the 22nd of

13 August, 1996, that your brother too had a rifle?

14 A. I think I did, but he didn't have a rifle

15 directly; he was given one by others.

16 Q. What kind of rifle was it?

17 A. Well, I don't know enough about rifles, I'm

18 afraid.

19 Q. You say you don't know about them, but in

20 your statement you give us the exact model; and

21 furthermore, in the testimony before this Trial Chamber

22 you mentioned trademarks, such as Kalashnikov, Zolja,

23 and other types of weapons. How were you able to do

24 this?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 1548













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 1549

1 Q. Do you know that in order to have possession

2 of a rifle, you need a permit?

3 A. Yes, I know that.

4 Q. Did your brother have a permit?

5 A. He did not, because when the war broke out,

6 he was given it, because we had to stand guard before

7 the rifles were surrendered. We stood guard around the

8 houses.

9 Q. We're hearing for the first time that you had

10 these watches or shifts around the houses. Your answer

11 was always negative so far, in saying that the Muslims

12 did not have watches or stand guard. So what is true:

13 Did they or didn't they?

14 A. Well, I don't recall having said that they

15 did not stand guard.

16 Q. These other people and their weapons, and I'm

17 thinking of the automatic rifles, what about them?

18 A. Well, they were rifles from the reserve

19 police force.

20 Q. The weapons and uniforms, was it not taken

21 away from the reserve force, both the army and police

22 reserve force, prior to the outbreak of the war?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Well, how come they had them, then?

25 A. As far as I remember, nobody had rifles; just

Page 1550

1 one man, and he hid his in the woods. And when the war

2 broke out, when they attacked, he went to fetch it.

3 That is, before we went to the woods at night, he went

4 to take his rifle and kept it with him. And when we

5 were attacked in the morning, another man took the

6 rifle away from him, but he was killed straight away.

7 Q. I asked you about the automatic rifles which

8 you claim belonged to the members of the reserve police

9 force, and not that rifle that you have just been

10 talking about.

11 A. Well, I don't know that there were any other

12 ones. The other ones were all handed in.

13 Q. We are talking about an event which took

14 place, as you say, at the end of May/beginning of June,

15 before the weapons were surrendered. Can you give me

16 an answer?

17 A. Well, I didn't understand your question.

18 Q. I said that I was talking to you about the

19 events that took place before the end of May or the

20 beginning of June, that is to say, before the locals

21 agreed to hand in their arms and actually surrendered

22 them.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Well, let me ask the question again. Before

25 the locals agreed and surrendered their weapons, how

Page 1551

1 come the reserve police force had automatic rifles, as

2 you said? And you said that before the outbreak of war

3 the uniforms and weapons were withdrawn from the

4 reserve army force and the reserve police force.

5 A. Well, there were no uniforms, nor did anybody

6 mention any uniforms before. And as I say, the rifles

7 were handed in.

8 Q. When were the rifles handed in?

9 A. Well, I don't know the date.

10 Q. And before they were handed in, how come they

11 had these weapons at all, when, as you say, the weapons

12 were all withdrawn?

13 A. I don't know what you mean by "withdrawn."

14 How do you mean?

15 Q. Before the outbreak of war itself, and you

16 confirm this from the military and police reserve

17 force --

18 A. No, no, they weren't withdrawn; they weren't.

19 Q. Then we don't seem to have understood each

20 other.

21 A. Yes, it appears that we haven't understood

22 each other.

23 Q. I think that the situation was quite

24 different.

25 Further in your statement, the very next

Page 1552

1 sentence, you said that after the weapons were handed

2 in, the three of them, including your brother, left the

3 village. Does that mean, if I understand this

4 correctly, that they went away, left the village?

5 A. Yes, they went to the mountains for a day or

6 two, and then from the mountains they returned back

7 home again.

8 Q. Where? Which mountains?

9 A. Well, the mountain above our village.

10 Q. You told me that you didn't know when those

11 weapons were handed over.

12 A. I really don't know.

13 Q. Were you present at the time?

14 A. No. We weren't allowed to attend, and women

15 didn't meddle in things like that.

16 Q. You also said that when the weapons were

17 handed over a piece of paper was signed. You called

18 the paper something. What did you call it?

19 A. Well, a sort of loyalty document, pledging

20 loyalty -- that's what it was sort of called -- that we

21 would live normally with the Serbs, that nobody would

22 attack us, that nobody would touch us, that we could go

23 about our business freely, see to the agricultural

24 work, although half the village didn't have any flour

25 or anything, we weren't allowed to move around. That's

Page 1553

1 what the Serb side promised us.

2 Q. Was it a document, a written document, or was

3 this only said orally?

4 A. As far as I heard, it was written. They

5 signed it.

6 Q. Did you ever see that document?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Before that particular document was signed,

9 was there any discussion between the Muslim locals and

10 the people who came into the village concerning that

11 document?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know who signed the document on behalf

14 of the Muslim inhabitants?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. You don't know. Let us go back to what we

17 were talking about a moment ago when you said that your

18 brother had left the village for a few days with his

19 two friends. Where did you say; to the mountains,

20 wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did they go to Trebova, by any chance?

23 A. No. No. Quite certainly no.

24 Q. Do you know that at that time at Trebova

25 there was an independent battalion called Sutjeska

Page 1554

1 which were part of the formations?

2 A. No, I did not know that. I wasn't aware of

3 that.

4 Q. You do not know that. Very well. Does the

5 name Bekan Taib mean anything to you?

6 A. I think he was a secretary or a teacher in

7 the primary school in Brod. I don't know exactly.

8 Q. Do you know anything more about him?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Does the name Zaim Besevic mean anything to

11 you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Let me remind you. He was the commander of

14 that independent Sutjeska battalion. Do you remember

15 now?

16 A. No, I don't. I didn't hear about that. I

17 don't know anything about that.

18 Q. And did you know that the units that were

19 called the Green Berets mined roads from Tjentiste and

20 all the regional roads?

21 A. How would I know that.

22 Q. Oh, you don't know. Very well. Let's see if

23 you know something about this. How far is your village

24 from the regional road running from Tjentiste, Bare, to

25 Zelengora?

Page 1555

1 A. Can you ask me something easier? I really

2 don't know. I never measured.

3 Q. How many hours' walk away is it?

4 A. I never walked. I never went on foot. I

5 don't know.

6 Q. Does the road pass right by your village?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. You don't know that either.

9 A. Well, I never went to Zelengora.

10 Q. We're talking about the Tjentiste-Bare road,

11 which leads on further to Zelengora.

12 A. I really don't know. I think it's about 30

13 kilometers away from my village. I don't know. How

14 would I know, because I never passed that way.

15 Q. Where does the road go, the road under the

16 Trosanj and Mjesaja villages?

17 A. Well, it leads to the main road of

18 Foca-Tjentiste-Gacko. It leads to that main road.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. In addition to that main road, is there a

22 regional road?

23 A. I think that there are quite a lot of

24 regional roads because there are a lot of villages in

25 the area, but which one you're thinking of

Page 1556

1 particularly, I don't know.

2 Q. I'm thinking of the road where, on the 2nd of

3 June, 1992, from Potoka to Suhoj. And the village of

4 Suhoj, a vehicle came across an anti-tank mine and

5 several individuals were injured, and Milorad Gagovic

6 and Miroslav Mastilovic were killed on that occasion.

7 A. I don't know. I don't remember that.

8 Q. Do you remember that on same road, Potoka and

9 Suhoj, that the bridge was blown up?

10 A. I really don't know.

11 Q. Did you hear that on the 20th of June there

12 was an ambush and some shooting and that two Serbs were

13 wounded, Dragan Dzurovic and Branko Banovic, who were

14 passing by that way in a car, and that a Muslim was

15 wounded whose surname was Pekaz?

16 A. I don't know. When all this was going on, I

17 was in the camp and was not able to know anything about

18 what was going on.

19 Q. As far as I know, on the 20th of June, you

20 were not in the camp. According to your own story, you

21 lost your freedom on the 3rd of June.

22 A. But that a Pekaz was wounded, I really don't

23 know, nor that Pekaz was somewhere there at the time.

24 It's possible, but I don't know.

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 1557

1 (redacted)

2 A. (redacted).

3 Q. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.


8 A. Yes, I knew --

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Defence counsel is

10 once again pointing out very narrow specifics about one

11 of the witnesses, and I think that's not proper.

12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

13 never mentioned a single name or a code of a witness, I

14 just said "a witness." So I don't think that I in any

15 way identified anyone, nor called into danger the

16 identity of the witness.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He even went so far as

19 he mentioned the name of the husband.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The information you put in your

21 question is so much that people would be able to

22 identify the particular witness. Can you rephrase your

23 question? Or if you still want to insist on the

24 particular witness, maybe you can write down the name,

25 then it can be given to the witness. She can say yes

Page 1558

1 or no, things like that, so the paper is produced under

2 seal.

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we

4 don't wish to complicate things. I shall withdraw that

5 question and can it be deleted, the question regarding

6 the part when I said whether she knew that he married a

7 witness? But the rest regarding his wounding can

8 remain, I think.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, very well. Please

10 continue.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Do you know that two days later, on the

13 22nd of June, a minibus with Serbs on it again came

14 across an anti-tank mine at a locality called Kosur,

15 the mine having been planted by the Muslims, and seven

16 Serb fighters were killed, Slavko Kovacevic, Joko

17 Vukovic, Ljubo Filipovic, Momir Kukic, Nenad Maric, and

18 several others seriously wounded and who lost their

19 legs and remained disabled? And when the dead and

20 wounded were being saved, the truck with which they

21 were being transported also ran into a mine?

22 A. No. I don't know about that.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the relevance of this

24 to the charges against your client?

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we

Page 1559

1 have established that there was an armed conflict

2 between ethnic groups within the territory of Foca and

3 this is not being challenged. An attempt is being made

4 here --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: That is one of the admitted

6 facts, that there was an armed conflict.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

8 Honour. That was my introductory statement. I wanted

9 to add that the witness was trying to depict the other

10 ethnic group in the conflict as being unarmed, and I am

11 challenging that part of the statement of the witness

12 by saying that there were attacks by the Muslims as

13 well and that there were casualties on the side of the

14 Serbs also.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But that is not

16 relevant. It doesn't help the defence at all. Please

17 proceed with your questions.

18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] [No

19 interpretation]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm not getting any

21 interpretation in English.

22 THE INTERPRETER: I apologise, Your Honour.

23 Could the counsel repeat his statement, please?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, could you repeat what

25 you said?

Page 1560

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I said, Your

2 Honour, that I would be going on to the events of the

3 3rd of July, but I must make an observation and say

4 that among the persons whose names I read out as people

5 killed on board that minibus, there were people from

6 the village of Trosanj and village of Mjesaja, so

7 co-villages of the witness, and I think that this is

8 something that cannot be ignored.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Proceed with your

10 questions.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Could I ask the witness to take the statement

13 she has in front of her, a statement given to the

14 Tribunal in November 1995. Will you please look at

15 page 2. Will you please read out -- have you found

16 it?

17 A. Page 2.

18 Q. The last paragraph beginning, "On the 3rd of

19 July, 50 locals were sleeping in the woods ..."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you read out your statement? "And the

22 soldiers ..." in the last line?

23 A. I can't read it out.

24 Q. Will you tell me why?

25 A. Because there are names there.

Page 1561

1 Q. This has become the established practice now,

2 routine. When we come to names that are protected, we

3 just use the numbers. Surely I don't have to remind

4 you of that every time, and this is a generally

5 accepted rule.

6 A. Very well. "On the 3rd of July, 1992, I was

7 sleeping in the woods together with some 50 locals. My

8 brother was there; my cousin, number 88; and my

9 parents. In this group was also number 48 and 74. In

10 the morning, about 6.30, I heard shooting. A lot of

11 Serb soldiers in camouflage uniforms were coming from

12 below, shooting at us. The morning was foggy, and I

13 could not recognise the soldiers."

14 Q. Thank you. So you said it was a foggy

15 morning and that you couldn't recognise the soldiers.

16 Tell me, please, how thick was the fog and what was the

17 visibility?

18 A. When I said "foggy" and that I couldn't

19 recognise them, I was thinking of the distance. But

20 once they approached us, then we could see them well.

21 We couldn't see them at a distance or recognise them.

22 Q. But, nevertheless, tell me: How thick was

23 the fog and what was the visibility like?

24 A. I think visibility was up to five metres

25 distance, not more.

Page 1562













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 1563

1 Q. So am I understanding you correctly; because

2 of the thickness of the fog?

3 A. Yes. Visibility was only five metres.

4 Q. Thank you. How many soldiers were there in

5 the group and how were they dressed? You've told us

6 that, but I'm interested more in the number of

7 soldiers?

8 A. I really didn't count them. I know that

9 there were a lot of them, but I didn't count them

10 because I didn't even dare look at them, never mind

11 count them.

12 Q. When you came to the meadow that you

13 mentioned in your statement, what was the situation

14 like regarding the fog?

15 A. It was still foggy.

16 Q. Was it equally thick?

17 A. I really don't know. I didn't really pay any

18 attention to it.

19 Q. Could you please describe to me the

20 appearance, the size of the meadow, and where the rock

21 was where a group of soldiers were standing and how big

22 it was?

23 A. The meadow was quite big and the rock was

24 close by, close by the wood, close to the meadow.

25 Q. What do you mean "quite big"?

Page 1564

1 A. It wasn't enormous and it wasn't small

2 either. I didn't measure it, so I can't tell you how

3 many square metres it had. I don't know how to explain

4 it to you.

5 Q. Tell me, please: You come to this meadow,

6 and according to your statement, you see this group of

7 soldiers on the meadow. Could you please explain that

8 in greater detail?

9 A. When they had forced us out of the woods and

10 when we reached the meadow, the first one I saw was

11 Radomir Kovac, then Gojko Jankovic, Zelenovic, Tuta,

12 and another group of them. I don't know exactly how

13 many there were.

14 Q. So you got almost two metres close to the

15 soldiers?

16 A. Yes. Roughly. Two or three metres away from

17 the soldiers.

18 Q. How come you first came across Radomir Kovac?

19 A. Because he was standing there. I didn't know

20 at the time who he was, but later on when he got hold

21 of me and when I reached his apartment, then I knew who

22 he was.

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

24 have many questions, but in view of the time, shall I

25 continue or shall we break?

Page 1565

1 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We shall have our lunch

2 break. It's 1300 hours now. We will continue this

3 afternoon at 1430 hours.

4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.






















Page 1566

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar. You're

3 continuing with cross-examination of the witness.

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

5 Honour.

6 Q. Witness, my last question to you before the

7 lunch break was if you could explain to us how far you

8 were from the group of soldiers that were standing

9 against the rock; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said on that occasion that you were two

12 to three meters away from the accused Kovac; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell me, please: According to what you said,

16 the attack was sudden, people started fleeing uphill,

17 and there was panic and fear among the civilians.

18 Explain to me, in view of such a psychological

19 condition, how come you had the courage to approach the

20 soldiers at a distance of only two or three meters?

21 A. What could I do when there were others coming

22 behind my back? What could I do? Run?

23 Q. Yes. The logic would be for you to get as

24 far away as possible from them.

25 A. But they were chasing us.

Page 1567

1 Q. Yes, but you said the meadow was quite

2 large.

3 A. Yes, it was rather large.

4 Q. And it was possible for you to seek shelter

5 further away.

6 A. It wasn't up to us to decide where we would

7 go. They decided where we should go and where we

8 should stop.

9 Q. Could you please take your statement, the one

10 you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal in

11 November 1995, on page 3, and the last paragraph on

12 that page. Will you read it, please.

13 JUDGE HUNT: How does the paragraph begin,

14 Mr. Kolesar?

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I apologise.

16 It begins with the words "Radomir Kovac."

17 A. "Radomir Kovac was 32 or 33 years old. He

18 was tall, thin, and had short, black hair. He was

19 ugly, with a clean-shaven face. I did not know him

20 before the war."

21 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Could you please go on and read the next

24 sentence as well.

25 A. "Later, during my detention, when I was taken

Page 1568

1 to his flat, I saw a photo of him selling vegetables in

2 Sarajevo."

3 Q. You still abide by this statement, that you

4 saw a photograph in his flat?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you describe that photograph?

7 A. Unfortunately, I can't remember it anymore.

8 Q. Do you remember how many people were on the

9 photograph?

10 A. I think he was alone.

11 Q. What did he look like on that photograph?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. What was he wearing?

14 A. I don't remember that either.

15 Q. Did he have a beard, moustache, or both,

16 perhaps?

17 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

18 Q. Could you please repeat and tell us what he

19 was wearing when he was standing on the rock.

20 A. He was not standing on the rock. He was away

21 from the rock a couple of meters. He had a black cap,

22 a black patch, a black eye, a black leather jacket,

23 multicoloured pants, and an automatic rifle.

24 Q. I asked you this because I don't know what

25 you mean when you say "a black eye."

Page 1569

1 A. I don't know how to explain it. He had

2 actually a patch over one eye, a piece of cloth

3 covering one eye, probably so that people couldn't

4 recognise him.

5 Q. Is this what people who don't have an eye

6 wear, like you see in films?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Or like pirates wear in films?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can I have a

11 moment, please, Your Honours.

12 Q. In the statement you gave to the authorities

13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you said he was wearing dark

14 glasses with one glass missing. Which is true?

15 A. Just a moment, please. I can't remember

16 now. I just don't remember.

17 Q. Very well. But it is interesting that you

18 don't remember so many things when I ask you. Tell me,

19 please: While you were in the apartment, what was

20 Kovac wearing when he was not on duty -- when he didn't

21 go to the front; let us put it that way.

22 A. I don't know. I just know I recognised him

23 in uniform. I don't know about anything else.

24 Q. I can't understand that you don't know, if

25 you spent at least 20 days in the apartment.

Page 1570

1 A. I don't remember anymore.

2 Q. Very well. That is an answer.

3 Tell me, please, why in the statement that

4 you gave to the investigators you did not describe the

5 appearance of the accused Kovac as to how he was

6 dressed on the 3rd of July, but you did so in the

7 statement you gave to the authorities of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and again in court a couple of days

9 ago?

10 A. I have no idea. Maybe they didn't ask me. I

11 don't remember.

12 Q. Tell me please, did you know Kovac's brother

13 known as Micko?

14 A. I did not.

15 Q. Would you look at page 7 of your statement

16 for the investigators of the Tribunal, page 7, second

17 paragraph from the top, beginning with the words, "I

18 remember that Slavo."

19 A. Which page?

20 Q. Page 7 of the November statement, second

21 paragraph from the top with the sentence beginning with

22 the words, "I remember that it was Slavo." Have you

23 found it?

24 A. No, I haven't.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the usher

Page 1571

1 please assist?

2 A. Yes. "I remember that Slavo Ivanovic and a

3 certain Kovac, also known as Micko, the brother of

4 Radomir Kovac, used to take out women very often.

5 Kovac often chose number 50."

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Tell me please, why did you tell the

8 investigators of the Tribunal that you knew the brother

9 of Radomir Kovac and today you tell us that don't know

10 him?

11 A. I didn't know him from before. In the

12 secondary school centre is where I met him.

13 Q. I didn't ask you whether you became

14 acquainted with the brother of Radomir Kovac, Micko, in

15 the secondary school centre, but I asked you whether

16 you had ever met or seen Radomir Kovac's brother, also

17 known as Micko.

18 A. Not before that.

19 Q. What do you mean "before"?

20 A. Before the attack. Before; I mean before. I

21 didn't know him.

22 Q. Do you mean you never saw him in your life?

23 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

Page 1572

1 Q. In your statement, you say, "I remember that

2 he came, and he took out a certain person and that he

3 came often."

4 A. What I meant was that until that moment, I

5 hadn't known him until he started coming to the

6 secondary school centre with Slavo Ivanovic. But I no

7 longer remember that man at all.

8 Q. Can we agree then that you did see him and

9 that he came to the centre?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How do you know that he frequently took

12 Witness 50 out?

13 A. I know from her, from what she herself told

14 me.

15 Q. Did I hear you well? From her personally?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you say that she told you about it. Do

18 you know that that witness has already been

19 interviewed?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Do you know that she never mentioned him?

22 A. I do not.

23 Q. Before the war you didn't know Radomir Kovac

24 either, nor did you know Micko?

25 A. No.

Page 1573

1 Q. And you saw Radomir Kovac, as you described

2 him on the 3rd, was the first time you saw him. You

3 saw him dressed in that way for the first time on the

4 3rd; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you see him ever again dressed in the

7 same way?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. When?

10 A. Four months later when they brought us to his

11 place and when I stayed with him in his apartment.

12 Q. Did I understand you correctly that during

13 your stay in the apartment, he was wearing a black cap,

14 a black leather jacket, a black patch, and camouflage

15 pants?

16 A. He did not wear a black eyepatch, but he did

17 mostly wear a black cap and a black jacket and

18 camouflage trousers. I know that for a fact.

19 Q. Did he sometimes wear a beret?

20 A. Yes. It was a beret that he wore, a black

21 beret, or maybe a navy blue one. I don't remember

22 exactly. That was the cap I was referring to.

23 Q. Could it possibly have been a red beret?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. You don't know. Very well. In view of the

Page 1574

1 whole set of circumstances on the 3rd, the fog, the

2 fear, the fact that you didn't know these people

3 before, that this was the first you saw him, and the

4 fact that you met Micko later on, could it have been

5 Micko on the 3rd of July standing near the rocks

6 together with a group of soldiers?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. In your statement, you said that you inferred

9 that he didn't have enough money for bread or for

10 cigarettes before the war. How could you have inferred

11 this if you hadn't known him before the war?

12 A. His colleagues themselves told me about that,

13 who knew him well.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I want to

16 clarify something with translation. Also, I do not

17 speak the B/C/S language, but I heard the witness say

18 "Ne" and to me this is "no." Maybe I'm wrong. I

19 mean, to the question about could it have been the

20 brother, she said, "Ne," but it was then translated as

21 "I don't know," and I'm really a bit surprised.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the interpreter --

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] May I perhaps

24 say, on behalf of those who do speak Serbo-Croat, the

25 answer was, "I don't know," "Ne Znam".

Page 1575

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's ask the witness to

2 clarify.

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

4 Q. When I asked you whether it could perhaps

5 have been Micko instead of Radomir with a group of

6 soldiers next to the rock, I heard you say, "I don't

7 know."

8 A. No. I said, "No, it wasn't him." "It wasn't

9 him," I said. I didn't say, "I don't know." I

10 said, "It wasn't him." I said, "No." I'm quite sure

11 it was Klanfa.

12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I have a

13 request to the registry. Are the proceedings taped in

14 the original language, or not?

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, we have

16 tapes where it's recorded, and we can listen back to

17 them, but not right now. And we can indeed check the

18 proceedings, because everything is recorded on tape.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe that can be checked

20 into later, as the registrar says. Can we proceed?

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, and

22 could I please ask for that opportunity, to hear that

23 tape as soon as possible.

24 Q. You said that out of fear you slept in the

25 woods.

Page 1576













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Page 1577

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please tell me -- please don't

3 enumerate the names if they are protected persons --

4 who was with you that morning when the soldiers

5 arrived?

6 A. I've already said that, I think, but there

7 was DB, number 87 -- just a moment -- number 90, number

8 48, number 74, and number 88.

9 Q. On page 4 of your statement to the

10 investigators of the Tribunal, it's the sixth paragraph

11 in the Serbo-Croat text, beginning with the words "and

12 then the soldiers ..."

13 A. "Then the soldiers forced us women downhill.

14 When we approached the first houses in our village, I

15 saw that two houses were completely burned down. I

16 heard shooting, and I knew that they had killed the

17 captured men, which was later confirmed by my father.

18 He saw their bodies, and among them was my 20-year-old

19 brother. My father also found the body of my

20 42-year-old mother. He tried to bury her, but he heard

21 the Chetniks approaching and fled."

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 Microphone.

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you please look at the other statement

Page 1578

1 that you gave to AID and look at page 1 of that

2 statement, and the last paragraph, beginning with the

3 words "On the 3rd of July ..."

4 A. "On the 3rd of July, 1992, about 6.20,

5 shooting started in the area where we were. We

6 realised that we were surrounded and we started fleeing

7 into the mountain. In the shooting, a man, my mother,

8 and another woman were killed. They managed to

9 surround us and capture us. There were about 30 women,

10 children, and old men, and 7 able-bodied men. My

11 brother was wounded, and he was captured too. Within

12 the group of the captured was --"

13 Q. Leave out the names, please.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

16 Just a moment, please.

17 Q. Don't read the names, because we were told

18 that these could be identifying elements. So could you

19 please explain to me the difference between these two

20 statements.

21 A. It's only due to the translation, how it was

22 translated.

23 Q. But the statement you made to the authorities

24 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was given in

25 Serbo-Croatian. Does that mean that the translation of

Page 1579

1 the statement to the Tribunal does not correspond to

2 what you said?

3 A. I don't see any big difference.

4 Q. Can I go on to the next question? Would you

5 allow for the possibility that your brother was wounded

6 in the exchange of fire between the Serb soldiers and

7 the Muslim soldiers, in view of the fact that he was

8 armed with a weapon that was seized from him, but later

9 on he appeared to have obtained another weapon, rather

10 than as he was fleeing?

11 A. He was wounded when he was fleeing in the

12 group that I was in. There was no shooting there

13 between the Muslims and ...

14 Q. Tell me, please, how many houses there are in

15 your village, how many households and families,

16 irrespective of their ethnicity?

17 A. I don't know exactly.

18 Q. Do you know how many Muslim houses there

19 were?

20 A. About 30. I never counted them all.

21 Q. Did I understand you correctly: 30 houses or

22 30 households?

23 A. Yes, thereabouts.

24 Q. Of those 30 houses or households, how many

25 men were between the ages of 16 and 60?

Page 1580

1 A. I don't know that either.

2 Q. Well, they're your next-door neighbours. I'm

3 not asking for anything much.

4 A. Well, I know, but I never counted them

5 exactly. I never wrote it down so that I could give

6 you an exact figure. I didn't pay attention to that.

7 I wasn't interested. And I don't know. If I were to

8 go through them all and count them and write it all,

9 jot it all down, then I would know exactly, but like

10 this, I don't.

11 Q. Very well. Tell me how many people were

12 taken away on that 3rd of July to the barracks at Buk

13 Bijela.

14 A. To the barracks? Only one man was taken to

15 the barracks.

16 Q. I didn't ask about the men; I asked about all

17 the people: men, women, and children, and girls.

18 A. I thought you said, when you said "ljudi,"

19 that you were referring to men.

20 Q. Well, that doesn't matter, but would you

21 answer the question now.

22 A. Well, I don't know exactly. On that first

23 day, about 30 of us women and children were caught,

24 rounded up.

25 Q. And how many men, do you say?

Page 1581

1 A. One. There was one man.

2 Q. I see. What about the others, the other men?

3 A. Well, Mr. Kovac knows that full well, because

4 he personally told me to my face what happened to them.

5 Q. I should like to ask you to answer my

6 questions, and not to do what you're now doing.

7 A. Seven. Seven were rounded up alive, and

8 before that one was killed.

9 Q. What about the rest? They fled?

10 A. Yes, they fled.

11 Q. Thank you. Well, let's go on from what you

12 said. How do you know that Radomir Kovac killed your

13 brother?

14 A. Because he told me so to my face. When he

15 raped me in his flat, personally, he said, "I killed

16 your brother, and what are you going to do about it?"

17 And I've come to see that justice is done.

18 Q. Does that appear to you to be logical, that

19 the person that he killed and this other person, his

20 nearest relative, whether it is rape, during a rape or

21 not, that he confessed that he had committed this

22 crime? It doesn't seem logical to me.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: It isn't for this witness to

24 answer. What you're asking is not for this witness to

25 answer.

Page 1582

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Let us focus on your stay in the Lepa Brena

3 Block. Tell us how you came to be in that apartment.

4 A. From an apartment in the Ribarsko settlement,

5 Klanfa and Jagos Kostic brought us there to that

6 apartment.

7 Q. From which apartment?

8 A. From one of the apartments, the Ribarsko

9 settlement. I don't know which one exactly.

10 Q. How don't you know when you were -- when you

11 took part in the events?

12 A. Well, I just don't.

13 Q. Why did you come?

14 A. Why? I have no idea why. I really haven't.

15 Why did I come.

16 Q. I'm asking you that.

17 A. Because they brought me there, that's why.

18 Q. Very well. That's an answer. Who came with

19 you? Not names, please.

20 A. I was going to say the name of a man. Number

21 87 came and number -- and AB and AS.

22 Q. Do you still say that you were handed over in

23 an apartment in the Brena Block?

24 A. We were handed over in an apartment in the

25 Ribarsko settlement. Janko Janjic, Dragan Zelenovic,

Page 1583

1 and Gojko Jankovic, they handed us over. Jagos Kostic

2 came and Klanfa, and took us to the Brena Block.

3 Q. Would you take a look at page at 13, please,

4 of your statement given to the investigators of the

5 Tribunal? Have you found page 13?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Take a look at the one but last paragraph,

8 which begins, "The next morning ..." and look at that

9 first sentence, please.

10 A. "The next morning Tuta and Zelja handed us

11 over to Klanfa Kovac and Jagos Kostic, who came and

12 took us to a flat in the Brena Block where we stayed."

13 Q. Very well. Now look at page 8. And it is

14 the statement given to the authorities of the Republic

15 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In paragraph 3, line 8 from the

16 top, the sentence starts, "The next morning so-and-so

17 came." Read that passage out to us, please.

18 A. You said on page 8.

19 Q. Yes, on page 8. Fourth paragraph. Page 8.

20 It is the fourth paragraph and the eighth line from the

21 top of that paragraph, and it begins, "The next

22 morning ..."

23 A. "The next morning, Radomir Kovac, nicknamed

24 Klanfa, came, and Jagos Kostic, and allegedly they said

25 that they would be our protectors from that day on.

Page 1584

1 Gojko permitted this and said that these guys would be

2 looking after us in one of the apartments."

3 Q. And finally they said, in front of the

4 Tribunal, that Kovac, and Jagos, Tuta, Gojko, Zelja and

5 Pero had given you over. What is true of these three

6 truths?

7 A. Well, Tuta and Zelja handed us over. Gojko,

8 Tuta, and Zelja. When they all agreed on this, I don't

9 know. All I know is that they said that the guys would

10 come and take us away and protect us.

11 Q. Yes, but in three statements you have three

12 different individuals whom you say handed you over.

13 Would you explain?

14 A. All three of them were together there. Who

15 said what, when, I don't actually remember.

16 Q. From the place that you were handed over to

17 Kovac either by two men, three men, or four men to

18 Kovac and Kostic, up to the Lepa Brena Block and the

19 building there, how did you get there?

20 A. Well, I walked.

21 Q. Did they tell you why you were going and what

22 it was going to be like for you in that apartment?

23 A. Yes. They told me that from that day, they

24 would be taking care of us, that nobody else would come

25 there, that nobody would touch us, that nobody else

Page 1585

1 would come.

2 Q. And that day, when Kostic and Kovac came to

3 fetch you, how were they dressed, in civilian clothes

4 or in uniforms?

5 A. In uniforms.

6 Q. Very well. Is it true that Kovac told you

7 that you would be protected and that nobody would touch

8 you, that he would not bring anybody else?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that you would be there until the moment

11 came for you to leave?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I am quoting your exact words. Tell me,

14 please, what do you mean "to leave"?

15 A. Well, to take us to free territory somewhere,

16 to escort us to free territory.

17 Q. So on the way to where you were taken, the

18 Lepa Brena Block, you went on foot. Were you

19 mistreated in any way, physically attacked, or abused

20 in any way?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. On the way, did you stop by at a shop of any

23 kind?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Do you remember whether there was a shop, The

Page 1586

1 Maglic shop, on the ground floor of the Brena Block?

2 A. Yes, I remember that.

3 Q. Did you go into the shop?

4 A. We didn't, no.

5 Q. You didn't?

6 A. No, we didn't.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

8 counsel.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should like

10 the witness to be shown a photograph now. The number

11 is 407401, and as far as I know, it has been admitted

12 into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 11. That is what

13 I saw in the transcript. 407401.

14 Q. Do you remember this particular photograph,

15 and do you recall that the photograph was shown to you

16 by the Prosecution when they examined you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said that this was the Lepa Brena Block

19 where you were taken to.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also stated and indicated which apartment

22 belonged to Radomir Kovac. Could you do that once

23 again for us, please?

24 A. It was the apartment on the fourth floor.

25 Q. Let us now go back to the statement you gave

Page 1587

1 to the authorities of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Republic,

2 once again on page 8, the passage you read from, and

3 the next sentence. "They took us away ..."

4 A. On page 8 you mean?

5 Q. Yes, on page 8. The passage you read out a

6 moment ago beginning, "Next morning so-and-so arrived,"

7 and then the sentence after that, and it begins, "We

8 were taken off by ..." Would you like me to read it

9 and you can just follow?

10 "Klanfa and Jagos took us off to an

11 apartment on the sixth or seventh floor of the Lepa

12 Brena Block. Have you found that sentence?

13 A. Uh-huh. I found it, yes.

14 Q. Now, what is correct? Was it the fourth,

15 sixth, or seventh floor?

16 A. The fourth or fifth. I don't remember

17 exactly.

18 Q. Very well. Let us go back now to the

19 photograph. What can you see on the ground floor?

20 A. I can see a shop called Market.

21 Q. Can you read the name?

22 A. It says "Market," but I can't read what it

23 says above that word "Market."

24 Q. What you have just shown to us, are you

25 certain that that was the apartment in which you spent

Page 1588

1 some time and to which Radomir Kovac brought you?

2 A. I think it is.

3 Q. You think it is, but a moment ago you showed

4 the exact floor, the exact apartment, and the building?

5 A. Well, if this is the Market shop underneath,

6 then this is the fourth floor.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The Registrar

8 would respectfully like to remind the Trial Chamber

9 that we cannot guarantee the protection of the witness

10 in terms of distortion of her voice if the counsels

11 don't switch off their microphone while the witness is

12 talking, once they've finished asking their questions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, please bear that in

14 mind.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do understand

16 it. I'm doing my best, Your Honour, to press the

17 button, but usually the witness starts her answer

18 before I press the button, so I should like to ask the

19 witness to make a pause for me to be able to press the

20 button, extinguishing the microphone, before she goes

21 on.

22 Q. Now, where does this wooden door lead to?

23 A. I have no idea. As far as I remember, they

24 weren't there at all, just like the Red Cross never

25 came to Partizan.

Page 1589

1 Q. Could you please indicate the entrance which

2 leads into the building of the flat where you were.

3 A. Well, here, where this wooden door is

4 [indicates], but at the time this door was not there.

5 Q. For your information, this wooden door leads

6 into the shop.

7 A. No. As far as I know, you entered the shop

8 from this side here, as far as I remember [indicates].

9 Q. At the entrance in the hallway, was there a

10 lift?

11 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

12 Q. Looking at this photograph, does the building

13 go off towards the left as well and is there a hallway

14 there too?

15 A. Yes, there is, on this side here. There's an

16 entrance there as well, and in front of it was a

17 hairdressing salon, if I remember correctly.

18 Q. On this Lepa Brena building, is there part of

19 a building which is lower compared to the rest of the

20 building?

21 A. Well, now, I really didn't understand your

22 question.

23 Q. I asked you the following: Is there a part

24 of the building on the left-hand side, looking at it as

25 we are now, the photograph, which is lower compared to

Page 1590













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 1591

1 the building presented on the photograph which is the

2 Lepa Brena Block?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. How don't you know when you went in there

5 several times during your stay?

6 A. Well, I did go inside, but I didn't see it

7 because I didn't look around. I just looked in front

8 of me and had my head bowed down.

9 Q. Very well. Let's enter the apartment now.

10 Tell us how big the apartment was?

11 A. I think it was a two-room apartment: a

12 kitchen and a hallway and a balcony.

13 Q. Yes, a two-room apartment. What did it have?

14 What rooms?

15 A. It had two rooms: a kitchen, a bathroom and

16 a hallway, and a balcony.

17 Q. How did you get onto the balcony? From which

18 room?

19 A. The kitchen.

20 Q. Can you describe to me the furnishings in the

21 kitchen?

22 A. I really have no idea.

23 Q. Can you describe the furniture arrangement in

24 the living-room?

25 A. In the living-room there was a bed for

Page 1592

1 sleeping on, that is to say, a French bed, and then

2 there was a sort of sofa and a table, a round table,

3 and there was a display cabinet opposite.

4 Q. When you use the word "settee," or "sofa,"

5 what kind was it?

6 A. Well, it wasn't actually a couch or a corner

7 sofa. It was a sort of corner sofa just to sit on; you

8 couldn't make it into a bed.

9 Q. And can you describe the table for us?

10 A. All I know is that it was round.

11 Q. What height?

12 A. Well, I really didn't measure it.

13 Q. Was it a low table or was it a dining-room

14 height table?

15 A. No. It was a low table.

16 Q. What was the top surface made of? What kind

17 of material?

18 A. I really don't remember.

19 Q. Tell me what was in the bedroom.

20 A. Well, it wasn't actually a bedroom. It was

21 like a children's room. I think there were two bunk

22 beds and a cupboard. And I don't know whether there

23 was a sofa as well or not on the left-hand side from

24 the entrance.

25 Q. Where did the windows from that room look out

Page 1593

1 onto?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. What about the windows looking out of the

4 living-room?

5 A. Here, onto the street, onto this street here,

6 yes [indicates]. From the kitchen, the kitchen windows

7 and the living-room windows looked out onto the street,

8 both of them.

9 Q. Did I understand you correctly: The

10 living-room windows and the kitchen windows looked out

11 onto the street; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Tell me what there was in the

14 bathroom. Was there a washing machine?

15 A. Yes, there was a washing machine, because we

16 washed a lot of washing.

17 Q. Did you have a television set and a video?

18 A. I don't think we did. I don't know. I don't

19 remember.

20 Q. When you came to that apartment, how did you

21 decide who was going to sleep where, the people that

22 you came with and the two men?

23 A. As Mr. Kovac had previously taken me and

24 number 87 under his protection, then we slept with him

25 on this bed in the living-room, and Jagos Kostic took

Page 1594

1 AS and AB off into the other room.

2 Q. Was this sleeping arrangement changed later

3 on?

4 A. You mean us or the furniture?

5 Q. I mean the sleeping arrangements.

6 A. Quite certainly it changed.

7 Q. In which direction?

8 A. Well, Kovac intended to rape all four of us,

9 and as Jagos Kostic had taken AS under his protection,

10 and he couldn't -- because this was a great big

11 colleague of his and he couldn't rape her, then -- and

12 us, of course -- and he could rape us, of course.

13 Q. Witness, that's not what I asked you. I

14 asked you: In the course of your stay in the

15 apartment, was there a change with respect to the

16 sleeping arrangements amongst the individuals who were

17 in the apartment?

18 A. Yes, there were changes.

19 Q. Could you tell me how this came about and

20 what changed?

21 A. When he rejected me, he took AB, but he

22 didn't keep her for long either; he rejected her. Then

23 he took number 87, and then he spent most of his time

24 with her.

25 Q. I don't understand this term "rejected" that

Page 1595

1 you use. As far as I understand it, when a man rejects

2 a woman, it's in a romantic relationship.

3 A. When he had had enough of me and taking it

4 out on me, then he didn't keep me there. He chased me

5 away into the other room and he kept AB with him, also

6 for a brief period. After he had had enough of her

7 too, then he took number 87. That is what I meant.

8 Q. I'm afraid your answers do not correspond to

9 my questions.

10 A. Then I don't understand your questions.

11 Q. You told me that at first you and 87 slept on

12 the French bed with Kovac, and that AB and AS were in

13 the other room with Jagos.

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. When he rejected you, what happened to you?

16 A. I went to the other room, or the kitchen. I

17 don't remember exactly where I slept at all. I think

18 it was in the kitchen.

19 Q. Is there a bed in the kitchen?

20 A. Yes, there was kind of a two-seater that

21 could be unfolded into a bed.

22 Q. And then only 87 remained with Kovac in the

23 living-room?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But you said a moment ago that he then took

Page 1596

1 AB.

2 A. Yes, he did. AB was with him too, but only

3 for a short while, as I said. And then later on he

4 took 87.

5 Q. And when he took you, he didn't take 87 at

6 the same time, I mean the same days?

7 A. At first, yes, he did. He would rape both me

8 and 87 together in the same bed, in the same night.

9 Q. And later?

10 A. Later, when he took her alone, then he

11 wouldn't do that with me, but he would bring others.

12 Q. When you reached that apartment, what did you

13 bring with you in terms of your clothes?

14 A. When we had been taken by Tuta, Zelja, and

15 Jankovic, we found some clothes there and we collected

16 those clothes, as we had nothing with us to change

17 into, so we had some clothes with us.

18 Q. And were there any clothes in this apartment

19 that you could use?

20 A. No. I think there weren't any.

21 Q. Are you quite sure of that?

22 A. I am sure, because after a while some other

23 persons came and took those things, so we were left

24 with nothing. We did find some dirty clothes in the

25 bathroom, and we washed them so as to have something to

Page 1597

1 wear.

2 Q. Was there a washing machine in the apartment,

3 and could you use it to wash your own clothes?

4 A. Yes. I've already said that there was a

5 washing machine.

6 Q. Yes, you said that there was a washing

7 machine, but I didn't ask you whether you were allowed

8 to wash your own washing as well.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What about the other things that one needed

11 for personal hygiene purposes?

12 A. Nothing.

13 Q. Did you have soap to wash with and soapsuds

14 for the machine, washing powder?

15 A. Yes, a little, but not much. And when we had

16 used that, there was nothing left.

17 Q. Were you able to prepare meals? Was that

18 allowed?

19 A. We had nothing to prepare. There may have

20 been a tin or two, and that was all.

21 Q. Are you quite sure of that?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. How did you eat when the two of them were

24 there? Did you eat together or did the four of you eat

25 separately?

Page 1598

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Tell me, please: For how long did you stay

3 in that apartment without interruption?

4 A. Roughly a month, a month or so.

5 Q. Let me remind you of the statement you gave

6 to the investigators when you said you spent some 20

7 days, and you repeated the same statement when you were

8 interviewed by the responsible authorities of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So which is true?

10 A. It is true that that is what I said, but as

11 he gave us to the Serbians, and then he took us back

12 again, so all in all it was a month or a month and a

13 half that this went on for.

14 Q. Tell me, please, also: While you were

15 staying in this apartment, actually staying in the

16 apartment, how often did Kovac spend the night in that

17 apartment, as he also had to carry out his regular

18 duties?

19 A. I really don't know. I don't remember.

20 Q. Can you give us an approximation?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Could it have been half the total amount of

23 time that you spent in the apartment; in other words,

24 did he spend the other half outside?

25 A. I don't know. I don't know exactly.

Page 1599

1 Q. Tell me, please: During their absence from

2 the apartment, was the apartment locked? Did you have

3 the keys of the main door? Could you go to the

4 neighbours' or the store?

5 A. We were locked up.

6 Q. Did I understand you correctly: When they

7 were not in the apartment, you were not able to leave

8 the apartment because the door was locked?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you remember that on some occasions you

11 went to the neighbours' to ask for coffee and sugar?

12 A. I certainly didn't, nor did I say that, nor

13 do I remember that.

14 Q. What about one of the girls who were with

15 you?

16 A. Certainly not while I was there. As for what

17 happened afterwards, I don't know.

18 Q. Did the neighbours come to visit you?

19 A. No, except for one old woman who broke the

20 door down and begged us to leave the apartment and to

21 take everything away and just leave the empty

22 apartment. Because [Name omitted in realtime

23 transcript] was in the KP Dom and then Jankovic came

24 and drove her out of there.

25 Q. I didn't quite understand what you were

Page 1600

1 staying. Who was in the prison in Foca?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat

3 her answer? We didn't hear her.

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do you know why he was there?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you know for how long he was in prison?

8 A. I think two or three nights. I don't know

9 exactly. I don't remember.

10 Q. At the time when Kovac and Kostic were not on

11 duty, did you go into town with them for a walk and to

12 cafes for a drink?

13 A. With them personally, I did not. When they

14 gave us to the Serbians, then one night this Serbian

15 man took me to a cafe, and Klanfa was there too, I

16 think with 87. He brought her there to the cafe as

17 well. That one night we were in the cafe.

18 Q. If I understood you correctly, you sat at the

19 same table.

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. LOPICIC: Following the transcript, it

22 says here "because," and it has not the name of the

23 accused Klanfa "was at the KP Dom." It needs to be

24 added "Klanfa" in the transcript of the 15:38:22.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Are you saying that was the

Page 1601

1 answer which the interpreters lost, where the question

2 was: "Who was it in the KP Dom?" was the answer

3 "Klanfa"?

4 MS. LOPICIC: It's not in the transcript.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Did you hear the answer as being

6 "Klanfa"?


8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Obviously the

10 translators didn't get that, otherwise it would be in

11 the transcript. I think the best way would be to ask

12 the question again.


14 Mr. Kolesar, please ask the question again so

15 that we can have the answer for all to hear.

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did I understand you correctly that the

18 accused Kovac was in the prison in the KP Dom for a

19 while?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know why?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Do you know how much time he spent there?

24 A. I don't know exactly. Two or three nights.

25 I'm not sure.

Page 1602

1 Q. Tell me, please, during your stay in this

2 apartment, did a close relative come to visit you, a

3 close relative of the accused and his mother, and bring

4 you food when Kovac was on duty?

5 A. To me they certainly did not.

6 Q. If not to you, did they bring food to someone

7 else?

8 A. Well, I don't know.

9 Q. But you were all in the same apartment, all

10 four of you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But while I was there, no one came to see me

13 or bring me anything.

14 Q. You mentioned that somebody named Tarza would

15 come. Could you tell us who that is?

16 A. I know that he worked in Sipad Maglic. They

17 called him Tarza. I don't know his name or surname. I

18 did know it, but I've forgotten it.

19 Q. You worked in the same company and the same

20 department?

21 A. Yes. But not in the same department. The

22 thermal plant was one department and his was another.

23 But all this belonged to one basic organisation, but

24 they were separate departments. That's what I mean.

25 Q. What did this Tarza do or, rather, how many

Page 1603

1 times did he come to the apartment and why did he

2 come?

3 A. I remember that he came once when Klanfa

4 brought him. I asked him whether he remembered me, and

5 he said no, that he didn't remember me, and we didn't

6 talk.

7 Q. And that was the end of your conversation

8 with Tarza?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. He spoke at some length, but I don't remember

12 the things that he said.

13 Q. What about Slava Ivanovic? Had you known

14 Slava Ivanovic from before? What did you say?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Could you describe him, how old he was, what

17 he looked like?

18 A. Grey-haired, 50 and more. I know that he

19 worked as a taxi driver in Foca. Medium height, rather

20 plump.

21 Q. When he came, did he bring some gifts

22 perhaps?

23 A. I really don't know, and I don't remember.

24 Q. For instance, some proscuitto, smoked ham?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 1604













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 1605

1 Q. Who was he closer to, Kovac or Jagos?

2 A. I really don't know.

3 Q. Just a moment, please, Your Honours, if I

4 may.

5 Could you please find again page 13 of your

6 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal, from

7 November 1995? The one but last paragraph you have the

8 sentence beginning: "For the first two or three

9 days ..."

10 A. "For the first two or three days, Klanfa

11 raped us all, and then he took [name redacted] --"

12 Q. Please don't use the names.

13 A. "... he took AB. Kostic took AS. Number 87

14 and I were left alone for about ten days while the

15 other two girls were constantly raped. Nothing

16 happened to me and to number 87."

17 Q. Thank you. That's enough. Could you please

18 find now your statement to the authorities of the

19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, page 8. Have you found

20 it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Sixteenth line from the bottom, where it

23 says: "We spent some 20 days or so there." Could you

24 read that part?

25 A. "Klanfa raped the three of us constantly

Page 1606

1 while Jagos slept only with AS. This happened mostly

2 at night and every night. After some 20 days, Klanfa

3 took for himself number 87, and he told me and AB that

4 we have to leave the apartment and go to some people

5 from Serbia. Then --"

6 Q. That's enough. Thank you. So those are two

7 statements, one made in 1995, the other in 1996. The

8 other day in court you gave us a different version of

9 events. You said, in the course of the

10 cross-examination today, that your memory was better

11 earlier on. So if you have before you all three

12 statements, will you please tell me why and how these

13 contradictions have appeared, which, in my view, are

14 quite considerable?

15 A. I have no idea.

16 Q. In my view, that is not an answer. Will you

17 please answer my question?

18 A. I don't know what to say. I couldn't always

19 recollect all the details correctly for everything to

20 be exactly the same.

21 Q. My dear witness, these are not details, nor

22 are they minor points. These are things that you

23 allege happened to you, and they are of such a nature

24 that they cannot be forgotten for a very long time. So

25 I would appeal to you to try and refresh your memory

Page 1607

1 and to tell us why you have three statements, each of

2 which differ amongst themselves.

3 A. I'm saying again that I remember what I said

4 and when.

5 Q. Could you please understand me. The way in

6 which you are answering these questions, not just this

7 question but generally, is not an acceptable way for

8 witnesses to answer. So please make an effort and

9 explain why these three statements are different.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, the witness has

11 explained. She can't do any more. She can't satisfy

12 you. Please move on. These are matters you submit

13 during your closing arguments. All right? You can't

14 make the witness give you the answer you want, so

15 please move on.

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

17 I'm not in any way forcing the witness to give me the

18 answer I want or I would wish, but the witness is not

19 providing any answer.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, you have made

21 whatever point you can on this particular line of

22 cross-examination. The witness says she can say no

23 more than she has. Do you think we could move on to

24 your next point, please?

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1608

1 Q. I should like to ask you to find page 14 of

2 your statement to the Tribunal investigators and

3 paragraph 1 on that page.

4 A. Page 14?

5 Q. Yes. First paragraph. You have a sentence

6 beginning: "From there, they took us to Klanfa's

7 apartment for one night."

8 A. "They took us to Klanfa's apartment where the

9 Serbian soldiers were and who shot out of the windows,

10 and that night Klanfa and Dragan Stankovic negotiated

11 on the sale of AB. I heard that Klanfa had sold AB for

12 200 German marks. And the Serb soldier named Zeljko

13 took AB to Masala, and AS to an apartment in Donje

14 Polje by Jagos Kostic." This is not a proper

15 translation. "Tuta took me and 87 to his flat."

16 Q. Is that what you said to the authorities of

17 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina when they

18 interviewed you or was it different?

19 A. I don't remember exactly what I said. I

20 don't remember.

21 Q. Very well. We'll leave that for a little

22 later. Let me ask you now the following question:

23 According to what you have said so far, you said,

24 bearing in mind the statement you made for the Tribunal

25 in November 1995, that you spent 20 days in Klanfa's

Page 1609

1 apartment. Is that so?

2 A. Roughly, yes.

3 Q. And then you stated that you spent 20 days in

4 the building next to the Zelengora Hotel.

5 A. I don't remember exactly how many days.

6 Q. I'm just referring you to what is in your

7 statement. If you don't believe me, let us check.

8 A. I don't remember half of what I said then.

9 Q. Will you please look at page 14 of your

10 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal in

11 November. Second line from the top.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not

13 have the Serbo-Croat version, and it is very difficult

14 for us to find the exact quotations.

15 A. "We stayed there for some 15 days with those

16 soldiers."

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation].

18 Q. This is the flat near Masala that you're

19 referring to?

20 A. I think so, yes. Yes.

21 Q. Will you go back to page 13, please? The

22 last paragraph, beginning with the words: "From the

23 apartment building Brena --"

24 A. "Klanfa took me and AB to a house near Masala

25 where we stayed for about 20 days with some soldiers

Page 1610

1 from Serbia."

2 Q. That's enough. Thank you. So we've come to

3 the conclusion that you stated that you spent 20 days

4 in the apartment in Brena and 20 days in an apartment

5 near the Zelengora Hotel and 15 days in the apartment

6 near Masala with the Serbians. That's a total of 55

7 days. Is that right?

8 A. I can't tell you exactly to the day.

9 Q. My question is: Twenty plus 20 plus 15, does

10 that make 55?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That is my question.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, the time is up.

14 You've had this afternoon, you had part of this morning

15 for your cross-examination. Do you have any more

16 questions?

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Your

18 Honour. Not very long.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: How long do you think you'll

20 need tomorrow?

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I think, Your

22 Honour, at least another half hour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Kolesar, that is too

24 much. You're not doing very well with your time. You

25 will not be given more than 15 minutes tomorrow

Page 1611

1 morning. We shall start at 9.30, and you better make

2 sure that you work out the questions that you have for

3 the witness. It won't be more than 15 minutes tomorrow

4 morning. You've had more than enough time.

5 All right. The Court will rise and continue

6 tomorrow morning at 0930 hours.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

8 at 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on

9 Tuesday, the 4th day of April, 2000,

10 at 9.30 a.m.
















Page 1612













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