Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2137

1 Thursday, 20 April 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call

7 the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-96-23-T and

9 IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac,

10 Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. You are

12 still under solemn declaration, and the

13 examination-in-chief continues.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS 78 [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld: [Cont'd]

18 Q. Witness 78, just before we had finished for

19 the day yesterday, I had asked you about seeing any

20 evidence of the Aladza mosque, and I believe you told

21 us that portions of it were visible down by the river

22 near KP Dom. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'm going to ask you now, sir -- again, I'm

25 not going to ask for any detail about many of the

Page 2138

1 events that may had occurred over the two and a half

2 years that you were detained at KP Dom, but very, very

3 generally, sir, I'd like to ask you just a few

4 questions about the conditions at KP Dom.

5 You've told us that you and your fellow

6 inmates had tried to do a headcount at some point and

7 that you estimated that there was some 550 to 600

8 inmates there at any one time; is that correct?

9 A. As far as we were able to count, yes.

10 Q. Yes. I understand that.

11 A. But that is simply visually, because there

12 were people in solitary cells as well, so one didn't

13 know the real state of affairs regarding numbers.

14 Q. Just very briefly, sir, were all of you in

15 one room, or were there different rooms, or would you

16 all come together to eat in one room, or can you maybe

17 just describe how people were housed?

18 A. We were accommodated in various rooms. The

19 rooms bore numbers 16, 18, 20, 21, which means that we

20 were not all in one room. We went to the dining room

21 individually; that is, room by room.

22 Q. I see. And can you give the Court an

23 estimation of how many people would have been in your

24 room? I understand you were in room 16. Am I correct

25 about that?

Page 2139

1 A. Between 90 and 100.

2 Q. And the second part of my question is: that

3 was in room 16 you're now talking about?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Talking about people in your room 16, during

6 the course of your detention, were any of those fellow

7 inmates or detainees in your room called out by or

8 taken out by soldiers and taken away?

9 A. Yes. This happened often.

10 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what happened

11 to those people when they were taken away?

12 A. Some of them returned with visible injuries,

13 some of them did not return at all, and a third group

14 or the third kind of treatment ended up in solitary

15 cells, and after 10 or 15 days they would be released

16 from those cells.

17 Q. How would they be taken out? Was there any

18 method to their being selected and removed?

19 A. I really don't know on the basis of which

20 criteria they selected them. A guard would simply come

21 with a list, call out the names of the people who

22 needed to be taken away.

23 Q. Apart from seeing symptoms of injuries upon

24 the return of some of those people, were any noises

25 audible from time to time shortly after they were taken

Page 2140

1 away?

2 A. Yes, very frequently in the case of certain

3 groups of people taken out, that people could be heard

4 crying out, screaming, and that sort of thing,

5 individual people here and there.

6 Q. While detained, did you ever hear the sound

7 of gunfire or gunshots in the vicinity of KP Dom?

8 A. Yes. That happened very frequently.

9 Q. Since you had access to the -- I guess it's

10 the mechanical workshop, or metal shop, or however you

11 referred to it, the place where you did your work, did

12 you pass by any of the other buildings and did you ever

13 see any evidence of gunshots, other than the sounds you

14 heard?

15 A. Immediately upon leaving the compound to the

16 search room, on the walls one could see a large number

17 of holes in the walls themselves, and then also on the

18 walls of the building itself there were bullet holes,

19 and also casings of bullet shots could be found within

20 the compound. All this could be seen.

21 Q. Were there, to your knowledge, any attempts

22 made to patch these holes from day to day?

23 A. As far as I know, on one occasion they took

24 two young men to patch up those holes. I think the

25 name was Hodzic of one of them; I don't know the

Page 2141

1 other's. These two young men, on one occasion, did

2 patch up those holes.

3 Q. Of your fellow inmates that were taken away

4 and did not return, do you know what happened to those

5 people? Have they ever been seen again, to your

6 knowledge?

7 A. Some of the people who were taken away,

8 hardly anyone ever saw again. An exception was a group

9 of elderly and sick people who were exchanged. All the

10 other groups who were allegedly going to be exchanged

11 disappeared and the exchange never took place.

12 Q. Did you ever see any blood or other

13 indications of injuries in the area of the workshop, or

14 anywhere else for that matter?

15 A. I could not notice any traces of blood. Only

16 once, one morning, going to work, a Polo passenger car

17 had been newly washed or freshly washed. I don't know

18 why it was washed so early in the morning.

19 Q. Just a couple of other questions about KP Dom

20 itself, sir. At the beginning of your detention, do

21 you know who the commander of the KP Dom was?

22 A. The commander was Milorad Krnojelac.

23 Q. During the course of your detention, did you

24 get to know many of the guards who were guarding you

25 and your fellow inmates?

Page 2142

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did many of them stay for quite a period of

3 time, or were their numbers changed, like, every week

4 or every month, or were there some people who were

5 there over a long period of time?

6 A. A small number who were there at the

7 beginning, and then they gave it up.

8 Q. Sir, I understand that in one of your

9 statements to the ICTY, which has been provided to my

10 learned friends, you gave a list of the names of guards

11 who you recall being there; is that correct? I'm not

12 asking you to list them now. But did you give a list

13 of names of guards who you remembered being at the KP

14 Dom?

15 A. Quite a bit of time has gone by now. I may

16 not be able to list them all but I still remember some

17 of the names.

18 Q. Yes. I was about to indicate that I don't

19 want you to list them all now; that's not the purpose.

20 But did you at that time -- I believe I led from you

21 that it was November 17th, 1995 when you gave your

22 first of two statements, and at that time you provided

23 a list of names. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that on that list of

Page 2143

1 names there was a Zoran Vukovic listed as one of the

2 guards?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The Zoran Vukovic that you listed as one of

5 the guards, was that the same or a different Zoran

6 Vukovic than the individual that you identified in this

7 courtroom yesterday as the individual who arrested you?

8 A. No. No, it is a different person

9 altogether.

10 Q. Could you describe the guard, Zoran Vukovic,

11 for us, please, if you recall?

12 A. He is dark, bony in build. I don't exactly

13 know where he's from, whether it's Josanica or

14 Mijakovici. Somewhere there, that's where he lives.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Could the

16 witness speak closer to the microphone. The

17 interpreters are having difficulty following. Thank

18 you very much.


20 Q. Thank you, Witness. I tend to lean into the

21 microphone every time I ask a question, and I suppose I

22 don't need to do that, but perhaps you should get a

23 little closer. Thank you.

24 During your 20-some-odd years as a resident

25 of Foca, did you know other Zoran Vukovics other than

Page 2144

1 the Zoran Vukovic who you say arrested you and who you

2 identified in this courtroom, and the Zoran Vukovic who

3 was a different Zoran Vukovic who was a guard at KP

4 Dom? Were there yet other Zoran Vukovics that you

5 know?

6 A. Yes, there is another one, another Zoran

7 Vukovic, who worked in my company, in the department

8 for fire extinguishing.

9 Q. Are you able to give us a general indication

10 as to what he looked like in terms of age or build or

11 colour of hair or any other distinctive features?

12 A. He had fair hair, light-coloured hair.

13 Compared to these other two Zorans, he was bigger. He

14 was about 180 centimetres tall. You know, it's always

15 difficult to make such estimates. And also in weight,

16 about 80 kilograms or more.

17 Q. Compared to the Zoran Vukovic who you

18 identified in this courtroom yesterday, is he much

19 bigger than Zoran Vukovic who you identified as the

20 accused in these proceedings?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. How about relative ages? How does he differ

23 from the Zoran Vukovic who you identified yesterday?

24 Are you able to say?

25 A. Perhaps a year older or younger or about the

Page 2145

1 same age. Something like that, I think.

2 Q. All right. Did you see this third Zoran

3 Vukovic, the person who you worked with, did you see

4 him either during the period of your house arrest or

5 detention at KP Dom?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you recognise [Realtime transcript read in

8 error "reasoning nice"] anyone else in this courtroom

9 who may have been a guard at KP Dom?

10 A. No, I can't.

11 Q. I believe you told us yesterday that you were

12 ultimately released in October of 1994, and --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry, Mr. Ryneveld. I

14 have to interrupt you. The transcript is not correct,

15 because your question: "Do you recognise," is typed

16 as: "Do you reasoning nice." Can we have it

17 corrected, please?

18 MR. RYNEVELD: I wasn't watching the

19 transcript.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: And it is a very important

21 question.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, thank you. Perhaps I

23 should ask the question again in case the

24 interpretation would have been "reasoning nice."

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Not really. It's the English.

Page 2146

1 It says: "Do you reasoning nice." I mean it doesn't

2 make sense.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: It certainly doesn't. Thank

4 you. I'm sorry, can I continue or do we wait?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, it will be corrected.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't have to wait for

7 that?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no.


10 Q. Sorry, sir. I was about to ask you about

11 your ultimate release, and I think you told us it was

12 in October of 1994. So as not to rehash the same

13 evidence, I think you told us that about the 4th or the

14 5th of October, you and your son were, in fact,

15 released, but you were turned back and returned to

16 KP Dom. Is that correct?

17 A. We were brought to Sarajevo, Kula, and Pedo

18 and Fundup came and ordered the bus to go back,

19 threatening all these people should be killed. "While

20 people are being exchanged, Serb youths are getting

21 killed around Kaonik," and he said, "They should all be

22 killed."

23 And then what happened was we all got back

24 into the bus and turned back. At Rogoj, Pero was

25 waiting alone. The driver got off. He spoke to him

Page 2147

1 briefly, and again he threatened those looking out of

2 the window. "I could kill you all," he said. And then

3 we drove back to Miljevina.

4 When we reached Miljevina, delegations had

5 come from Foca, and there was a meeting at the motel.

6 I don't know who was translating, who was in charge.

7 They took me and my son out of the bus to put us in the

8 police station, where they took us, in fact.

9 A short while later, a Lada Niva, a military

10 vehicle, arrived, and again they picked us up and said

11 we should go too. We didn't know where or why. When

12 we reached the bus, the bus was fuelling. When it had

13 refuelled, the bus turned back towards Sarajevo, and

14 that is how we reached Kula.

15 In Kula, the International Red Cross

16 registered us, and after that they transferred us to

17 the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge, where the exchange

18 actually took place.

19 Then there was a great deal of discussion

20 over the documents, names being called out and so on,

21 and then late into the night the last list was called

22 out. And the 11 of us were told to pick up our things

23 and get into the front part of the bus. I was on that

24 list.

25 We collected our things, got into the bus,

Page 2148

1 the last bus. It was about dawn. Then they started

2 calling us out eight by eight and loading onto APCs.

3 As an APC was full, by radio communication they

4 established links, and a group of APCs were probably

5 leaving Sarajevo and another group from Grbavica, and

6 they crossed paths at the bridge.

7 After the exchange was carried out, we were

8 told, "You get on the bus, the one that is parked down

9 there, starting from the back towards the front." That

10 is what we did. When we did so -- when their prisoners

11 arrived, their APCs were opened and they got into the

12 same bus. The first man that got into the bus said,

13 "Hello, men," though I wasn't called a man over

14 there. And then a member of the commission, I think

15 his name was Ljubo Krsmanovic -- I'm not quite sure --

16 answered --

17 Q. Might I just interrupt you there, sir. We'll

18 get an opportunity to talk about these details on

19 another occasion. But, in effect, after you were

20 turned back and taken to Miljevina, you were not taken

21 to KP Dom, as I thought you had. You were taken to

22 Miljevina police station, and from there you were

23 ultimately exchanged; is that correct?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All right. Maybe I should let you continue.

Page 2149

1 A. Not to the police station but in front of the

2 motel.

3 Q. Okay, yes. It was in Miljevina, not KP Dom.

4 I was wrong about -- you weren't returned to KP Dom?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you were ultimately released on the 10th

7 of October by virtue of this process you were in the

8 process of describing; i.e., the exchange. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you get a certificate --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- indicating that you had been detained at

14 KP Dom from the 25th of May, 1992, to the 10th of

15 October, 1994?

16 A. Yes. I received a certificate from the State

17 Commission for the Exchange.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the witness be shown

19 what is suggested to be marked as Exhibit 85, Madam

20 Registrar. Perhaps the usher could assist us. 85.

21 Q. I don't necessarily want you to read it out

22 loud. Just look at it to see if you recognise it and

23 if that is the certificate to which we have been

24 referring. You need your glasses, I take it, before --

25 A. Yes.

Page 2150

1 Q. I'll be asking you to keep your glasses out,

2 because I'm going to show you a map in a minute. So

3 just leave them out.

4 First of all, does that certificate refer to

5 you, Witness 78?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. And that's the certificate that I referred to

8 that shows that you were detained at KP Dom in Foca

9 between those dates?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that now be marked

12 officially as Exhibit 85 in these proceedings, Your

13 Honour.


15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be

16 Exhibit 85 of the Prosecution, and it will be admitted

17 under seal.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Now for my final

19 series of questions, sir.

20 Q. You've told us about the men who were

21 detained with you at KP Dom, and I think you told us

22 that they were all Muslim men, to your knowledge, and

23 that they were all civilians. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you have any opportunity to discuss with

Page 2151

1 your fellow inmates the areas that they came from; in

2 other words, where they were when they were rounded up

3 and brought to KP Dom?

4 A. A group of men were, and the other group was

5 not, because we were not all in the same rooms. So it

6 depended on which room those people were housed in.

7 Q. Let me ask you then about the people that you

8 do know about, and I take it that would be largely the

9 men who were detained with you in room 16.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the witness be shown --

11 I believe it's a map, number 23, Madam Registrar?

12 Perhaps the usher can assist. I do have a copy here if

13 you need it. Let me make sure we have the right one.

14 Is that it? Thank you. It's this map here. We may

15 have to move the map on the ELMO from time to time.

16 Q. First of all, sir, are you able to tell us

17 the areas that you are aware of, in your discussions

18 with your fellow inmates, what geographical areas that

19 they were from before they were taken to KP Dom?

20 A. A group was brought from Kalinovik

21 [indicates]; a group from Miljevina [indicates]; a

22 group from Mjesaja, Mjesaja/Buk Bijela [indicates],

23 that is very close; also from Trnovace [indicates];

24 Foca, of course that goes without saying [indicates];

25 and there were a few from Gorazde [indicates].

Page 2152













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between

14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2153

1 Q. So would it be fair to say, then, that it was

2 in -- well, the area surrounding Foca, you've gone --

3 you looked at Gorazde from the north-east to Trnovace,

4 which is south of Foca; the Mjesaja/Trosanj/Buk Bijela

5 area to the south of Foca; Kalinovik to the west of

6 Foca. The whole surrounding area; is that correct?

7 A. What is more, an area that is not shown

8 here --

9 Q. Yes, please tell us.

10 A. -- a part of the Tjentiste area.

11 Q. Where would that be? That is not a name that

12 rings a bell with me.

13 A. I'm afraid -- Mjesaja-Gacko, it's on that

14 road.

15 Q. You're now pointing -- for the record, you're

16 now pointing to the south of Mjesaja/Trosanj area,

17 where there appears to be a boundary, if you want to

18 call it that, an orange line, near the orange line, to

19 the south of Mjesaja/Trosanj; is that correct?

20 A. This line is the border.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Could

22 Mr. Ryneveld repeat the question? The interpreters

23 didn't hear it because both microphones were switched

24 on.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: My apologies.

Page 2154

1 Q. I'm just asking you, sir -- I'm going to show

2 you another map in a moment, but let's just talk about,

3 for the record, what you've indicated on the map,

4 Exhibit 23.

5 You've indicated a position just below an

6 orange line, south -- and when I say "south", I'm

7 talking down towards the bottom of the map -- of the

8 Mjesaja/Trosanj green dot; is that correct? Is that

9 correct, for the record?

10 A. Yes. Yes, to the south. That's what I'm

11 showing.

12 Q. I'm now going to show you Exhibit 20.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Registrar, let's see if

14 this helps us. I have to see it myself.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, for the record,

16 the witness may know the name of that area.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: He did, but the name didn't

18 ring any bells for me.

19 Q. Could you tell us the name of the area again,

20 sir? You said it but I didn't understand it.

21 A. Tjentiste.

22 Q. Tjentiste. Thank you.

23 Looking at the map, Exhibit 20, which, for

24 the Court's benefit, looks more like a roadmap, like

25 this, is the area that you referred to as Tjentiste, is

Page 2155

1 that shown on here?

2 Perhaps to help you orient yourself, there

3 are some letters dead centre in the map called "BP CP",

4 and below that are "BN CN". Do you see that group of

5 four initials? Just to the right of "CP", I see

6 something that looks like Tjentiste. Do you see the

7 area?

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Okay. For the record, you're pointing just

10 to the right of the letters "CP", to a town called

11 Tjentiste.

12 A. Tjentiste. Tjentiste.

13 Q. Tjentiste. Thank you.

14 You say that there were some men from that

15 area that were also detained with you in room 16 at KP

16 Dom.

17 A. They were from Tjentiste itself and the

18 vicinity of Tjentiste, a couple of men from there.

19 Q. Do you know what county or opstina that town

20 is in? Is that in Foca or is that in a different

21 county?

22 A. It is Foca municipality.

23 Q. Thank you. Gacko, is that in the -- I'm

24 sorry. Gorazde, is that in the same county or in a

25 different county?

Page 2156

1 A. I didn't understand the question.

2 Q. All right. You've also told us that there

3 were some men from Gorazde detained with you; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are you able to tell us whether Gorazde is in

7 the Foca county or in a different county? Is it a

8 different opstina?

9 A. It's a different opstina.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me, Your Honours. I'm

11 just going to check with my colleagues, but I believe

12 those are my questions. I'll just check to make sure.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Witness 78. Would

15 you answer my learned friends, please.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the

17 Defence.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

19 Q. Good morning, Witness. After your

20 examination, you said you did your military service in

21 1966/1967. Were you a conscript?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. Where were you registered, in which military

24 administrative unit?

25 A. Well, prior to the war itself.

Page 2157

1 Q. Where?

2 A. You mean before the war?

3 Q. I'm asking you in general where you were

4 registered with the army.

5 A. In the military department.

6 Q. You mean in the Foca municipality?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Up until before the war, did you have any

9 military training as a reservist?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was your speciality?

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't

13 catch the answer.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Did you have a wartime assignment before the

16 war?

17 A. Before the war they had almost abolished

18 these assignments.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we go back a bit, counsel.

20 The interpreters didn't catch the answer to your

21 question "And what was your speciality?" Can you

22 repeat the question so that the witness can answer.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. What was your speciality?

25 A. I handled ammunition, because I changed my

Page 2158

1 speciality. At one time I was in the technical service

2 but later on this was changed.

3 Q. In 1992, before the war, was mobilisation

4 proclaimed?

5 A. Not for me.

6 Q. But was it generally?

7 A. I suppose so.

8 Q. Do you know who proclaimed military

9 mobilisation?

10 A. Well, I didn't get a call-up, so I don't know

11 that there was this general mobilisation.

12 Q. But do you know who proclaimed mobilisation?

13 A. No.

14 Q. On the territory of Foca, did the Territorial

15 Defence exist?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you a member of the Territorial Defence?

18 A. [No audible response]

19 Q. Were you issued military materiel and

20 equipment?

21 A. Yes, but I returned it.

22 Q. When?

23 A. Before the war, perhaps two years before.

24 Q. Were you issued any weapons?

25 A. No, none at all.

Page 2159

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Could the

2 witness speak a little more loudly and into the

3 microphone, please. Into the microphone.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will. I

5 apologise.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did you personally have any weapons?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can you please repeat

10 your question "Were you a member of the Territorial

11 Defence?" The answer was not understood by the

12 interpreters. Could you just repeat that question,

13 please.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Were you a member of the Territorial Defence?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know who was the commander of the

18 Territorial Defence for Foca municipality?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Do you know, after the elections were held in

21 Foca, who was to have become commander of the

22 Territorial Defence?

23 A. I don't know that either because, to tell you

24 the truth, after the multi-party system, as I was not

25 included in any of the parties, I really wasn't

Page 2160

1 interested in it all.

2 Q. Do you know something about the distribution

3 of the weapons of the Territorial Defence in Foca?

4 A. Well, only by what people said, but I didn't

5 see any of this myself.

6 Q. You said that you attended a rally on the 5th

7 of April, in the afternoon. Do you know who organised

8 the rally?

9 A. It was organised by Jelenko Stankovic, Lola,

10 whose other name I don't know, whose surname I don't

11 know. I think he was a teacher of physical education.

12 Zijo Ajanovic was another one. And another director or

13 teacher. I don't know. That was the group that led

14 the rally.

15 Q. Lola was mentioned and you mentioned someone

16 else.

17 A. Starovic, Vojo.

18 Q. What were they by way of ethnicity?

19 A. They were Serbs.

20 Q. What about the other two?

21 A. They were Muslims.

22 Q. So they were the organising committee.

23 A. Yes, that's how it turned out.

24 Q. How long did the rally last?

25 A. Well, I couldn't tell you exactly how long it

Page 2161

1 lasted. I was there for about three to four hours, but

2 there were more people that stayed on. And how it

3 ended, I don't know because I went to Jelec myself.

4 Q. But do you know who spoke at the meeting, who

5 made speeches at the rally?

6 A. Well, they would take turns, the organisers.

7 And I don't know exactly, but other people would also

8 take the floor, interrupt and take the floor.

9 Q. Do you perhaps know whether the members of

10 the organising committee asked to be received by the

11 president of the municipality and the executive

12 council?

13 A. I don't know that.

14 Q. Apart from this rally, the one that you

15 attended, and you said that there were other rallies as

16 well, were there rallies and meetings in Foca before

17 that particular rally that you know about?

18 A. Well, I don't know which rallies you mean.

19 In which period?

20 Q. Well, let's say from 1990 onwards. Do you

21 know that there was an SDA meeting rally in Foca?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know when that was held?

24 A. I don't know the exact date.

25 Q. Were you present at that rally?

Page 2162

1 A. No.

2 Q. Through the media, were you informed about

3 what was said at the rally?

4 A. I wasn't that interested, and let me tell you

5 why I wasn't very interested. After the founding

6 meetings of the SDS and the SDA parties, I was

7 absolutely not interested in rallies of that kind

8 anymore, and so for all the coming meetings, I did not

9 attend them. But I did favour the rally for peace

10 because I thought that it would be a drop that could

11 tip the scales and change something, and that is why I

12 attended that particular meeting, the peace rally.

13 Q. Yesterday, during your testimony, you

14 mentioned that the cause of all the divisions in Foca

15 was the incident that took place at Focatrans.

16 A. Well, yes, that is my belief.

17 Q. Can you tell us a little more about that?

18 A. I don't think it was only the Focatrans

19 incident, but I have this personal feeling, it is my

20 personal observation, that after a longer period of

21 time, people were looking for a way to increase

22 tensions between Muslims and Serbs. Otherwise, we had

23 a very good communal life together; you cannot question

24 that. But then suddenly there were attempts to break

25 this up, this communality, and this was attempted

Page 2163

1 through various firms and companies. And the dark coal

2 mine of Miljevina, this was tried there. Another

3 attempt was made at Maglic. Later on it was the

4 Focatrans spark that ignited it.

5 So these were all the rallies that were

6 taking place, but what they wanted was to divide the

7 Muslim and Serb population, to divide them. That is

8 quite obvious.

9 Q. Do you know that during the Focatrans

10 incident, there was a strikers' board?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you perhaps happen to know what the

13 strikers wanted, what their demands were? Do you know

14 whether the Serbs and Muslims went on strike together

15 at the beginning?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After the Focatrans incident broke out?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know that in the strikers' committee,

20 the membership was 50/50, half Serbs, half Muslims?

21 A. Well, I couldn't speak of percentages,

22 because I don't know those things well.

23 Q. You said that after the meeting, you went to

24 Jelec?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 2164

1 Q. On that occasion, did some of the other

2 inhabitants of Foca go to Jelec? Do you happen to know

3 that, anything about that?

4 A. Yes, several families.

5 Q. And the ethnic composition of Jelec, what was

6 it?

7 A. The ethnic composition of Jelec was that

8 there were 90, 95, even more per cent Muslims. There

9 were just a few Serb houses, and about Miljevina there

10 are a few Serb households, but otherwise predominantly

11 Muslim.

12 Q. Do you know that during those days, there was

13 a religious festival? It was the Bajram, the Muslim

14 religious festival?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And during that festivity, you didn't have to

17 go to work, did you?

18 A. That's right, I didn't.

19 Q. That means on the 6th of April, you didn't

20 have to go to work?

21 A. Well, Bajram was on the 4th.

22 Q. And how long does Bajram last, how many

23 days? As far as I know, it lasts four days.

24 A. Yes, but my company just gives you -- gave

25 you one or two days off for the Bajram festivity, and

Page 2165

1 all the saints and all -- if we celebrated all the

2 saints and all the festivities, the different

3 festivities, we wouldn't go to work at all.

4 Q. You said that in Jelec, you spent from the

5 5th of April to the 30th; is that right? Do you know

6 that in that period of time, an armed unit of Muslims

7 with Zaim Besagic came to Jelec to help the people

8 there?

9 A. Not while I was there. Perhaps later on,

10 when I had left. But while I was there, quite

11 certainly it did not, because I was in a panic, what

12 would happen there. The conditions were to surrender

13 weapons or else you would be attacked. So if you

14 didn't surrender your weapons, you would be sure to be

15 attacked, whereas if you surrendered your weapons, you

16 would still be attacked, because we had the Bijeljina

17 experience.

18 And then, as I said, my wife was ill and I

19 had to go somewhere, to get away somewhere. She could

20 have stayed another day or two. But while I was there,

21 Besic had not arrived.

22 Q. And tell us, please, in Jelec, was there a

23 crisis staff?

24 A. Of course there was. When you see that

25 somebody is going to attack you, it is quite normal

Page 2166

1 that somebody has to organise something to protect the

2 inhabitants, the unarmed inhabitants. That is quite

3 normal, quite natural.

4 Q. During the time you were in Jelec, were you

5 able to listen to the radio? You said that there

6 wasn't electricity but that you could listen.

7 A. Yes, you could listen. On a power generator

8 of some kind, you could listen from time to time.

9 Q. In any of the programmes, did you happen to

10 hear an order by Jovan Divjak, Colonel Jovan Divjak,

11 not to surrender weapons?

12 A. Well, perhaps there were orders of that kind,

13 but I don't know.

14 Q. During the military training that you

15 attended, were you at the Romanija 84 military

16 training, by any chance?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Yesterday, you said that you saw Muslim

19 houses burning in the Gornja Carsija area.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you see or happen to hear that the Serb

22 houses were on fire as well?

23 A. I explained this very well. I said why the

24 fire brigade was out, to protect the Serb houses. Now,

25 whether any houses actually did burn, I don't know.

Page 2167

1 But the firefighters went to protect those houses,

2 whereas the Muslim houses were quite certainly on fire.

3 Q. And do you know whose house was burnt down

4 first in Foca?

5 A. Yes, I know that too. It was Krnojelac's

6 house.

7 Q. Do you know that in that part, Kovac's and

8 Plemic's houses were burned down too?

9 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

10 Q. When you said that you went to be exchanged,

11 can you tell us who this exchange was with? How were

12 you exchanged?

13 A. It was all organised by the State Commission.

14 Q. But who was the other party to the exchange,

15 who were you to be exchanged for?

16 A. They were from the Federation.

17 Q. Do you know who the people were?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak

19 into the microphone?

20 A. Serbs.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions,

22 please?

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

Page 2168













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Page 2169

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

2 Honour, I do have a few questions, with your

3 permission.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

7 Q. Good morning, sir. I'm going to ask you

8 several questions to clarify certain facts and events,

9 to the best of your recollection, which are linked to

10 Zoran Vukovic.

11 You said before that you knew Zoran Vukovic

12 before the war?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you describe to us how you knew him?

15 Did you just say, "Hello," or would you go out

16 together? Or you know the kind of thing I mean.

17 A. Yes, I would say, "Hello," we would say,

18 "Hello," when we met in town. And then later on, when

19 he became a driver and came to the [indiscernible], I

20 would see him. So that was more or less it.

21 Q. Did you ever have any conflicts with Vukovic

22 of any kind?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How long before Zoran Vukovic came to your

25 apartment -- when did you see him before he came to

Page 2170

1 your apartment for the last time?

2 A. Well, that's a difficult question. I can't

3 remember. If I were to ask you now what you had for

4 lunch the day before yesterday, you might not remember,

5 so I really don't know when I last saw him before he

6 came to my apartment. It's a very difficult question

7 for me to answer.

8 Q. When Zoran Vukovic came to your apartment, as

9 far as I was able to understand, there were two or

10 three other people with him.

11 A. Three, three.

12 Q. Was there an individual there that was

13 nicknamed Rus?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. You said that your wife was given a piece of

16 paper to inform her of your whereabouts?

17 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't read

18 that piece of paper. It was only when I met up with my

19 wife that she told me -- well, she didn't say what was

20 actually in the paper, but she just said that it was

21 signed by Brane Cosovic, that it was his signature.

22 That's all she'd actually told me.

23 Q. Did your wife happen to tell you -- I'm not

24 quite sure I understand that part. Did you get that

25 paper, piece of paper, or did you get it and give it to

Page 2171

1 your wife?

2 A. Well, believe me when I say I don't know who

3 actually got the piece of paper. When they came to get

4 me, I was a goner, so to speak, so I was just thinking

5 about, you know, what was going on.

6 Q. On that occasion, somebody stayed in the

7 apartment and the other person went off to get the

8 other individual; is that right?

9 A. Yes. Two soldiers left to get the other

10 people, and two stayed on in my apartment.

11 Q. Where was Zoran Vukovic?

12 A. I think that he stayed in my apartment.

13 Q. In your opinion, did Zoran Vukovic come on

14 his own initiative to your apartment to take you to the

15 KP Dom or was he following orders?

16 A. Well, I think that from what my wife told me,

17 that he came on orders, because he had this piece of

18 paper with him. So I think that that was it.

19 Q. While you were in the apartment, and later on

20 while you were being transferred to the KP Dom, were

21 there any incidents, in the sense of did he abuse you,

22 beat you, or anything like that?

23 A. No, no, his behaviour was very correct and

24 proper.

25 Q. As far as I was able to understand you, Zoran

Page 2172

1 Vukovic escorted you to the KP Dom, and then a certain

2 amount of time went by before you saw him again. Is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us how much time elapsed, if you

6 can, of course, give or take a month or two?

7 A. Well, it was perhaps after two months.

8 Q. As far as I was able to understand, he came

9 with a truck, didn't he?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what were you supposed to do? How did

12 your meeting come about, in fact?

13 A. Well, he came to the metal department to have

14 this vehicle serviced, that kind of thing.

15 Q. And he was a driver before the war, was he?

16 A. Yes. But before the very outbreak, I don't

17 know what Zoran actually did. But, yes, he was a

18 driver, in general terms.

19 Q. In the KP Dom where you were detained, were

20 there any guards whom you happened to know?

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot

22 hear the witness's answers.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, will you please speak

24 into the microphone. The interpreters cannot get your

25 answers. Go ahead and repeat the question, please.

Page 2173

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to

2 repeat the question for you, Witness.

3 Q. In the KP Dom, were there guards whom you

4 happened to know?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the KP Dom, were there guards whom you

7 knew better than you knew Zoran Vukovic? I mean people

8 you had known for a longer period of time, or you were

9 closer to them, knew them better, perhaps had a cup of

10 coffee with them, that sort of thing, at some time

11 before the war.

12 A. Well, I don't think so.

13 Q. I really don't understand you now. You knew

14 Zoran Vukovic best of all the people in the prison?

15 A. Yes, yes, because I didn't know these guards

16 in the KP Dom.

17 Q. Now I'd like to ask you another question

18 which is linked to yesterday's examination by our

19 learned colleagues from the Prosecution. In the

20 transcript, it's stated the following, and I would like

21 to have your clarifications: Your meeting with Zoran

22 Vukovic, when he came with the truck to the prison,

23 would you describe that as an incident?

24 A. No, it wasn't an incident. I approached

25 Zoran with the following words, and I said, "Zoran, as

Page 2174

1 you have already escorted me here, try to get my wife

2 out of Foca," which means it's not an incident. It was

3 a sort of agreement.

4 Q. I wanted to clarify this because the word

5 "incident" was used in the transcript. So I wanted to

6 clarify this. And, in fact, you asked Zoran Vukovic to

7 do something to help your family; then I assume that

8 you had a certain degree of trust in him, did you not,

9 confidence in him, because in wartime conditions, for a

10 Muslim to ask a Serb to help his family, that would

11 indicate that. That's why I'm asking you.

12 A. Well, yes, that's when you have absolutely no

13 choice. You do what you can and you try, and if it

14 works, it works; if not, well ... So that was the kind

15 of request that I made.

16 Q. Did you ask anyone else, apart from Zoran

17 Vukovic, to help you in any way with regard to your

18 family, any of the guards, any of the Serbs, the armed

19 Serbs?

20 A. Well, no, I didn't. I didn't ask anybody

21 because I saw that nobody would help me, so then I gave

22 up trying to ask them.

23 Q. On that occasion, did Zoran Vukovic give you

24 any information about your family, your wife?

25 A. He told me then that she had tried to get out

Page 2175

1 but she had been turned back. That's what he told me.

2 Q. Do you remember whether he said how that

3 attempt had been organised? Who had helped her? Or

4 did your wife perhaps tell you about it later when you

5 joined up with her?

6 A. It was an attempt. She got as far as Brod,

7 the first checkpoint. They searched her there, and

8 from that checkpoint they were so angry with her that

9 she had to go back, and she even left some things at

10 the checkpoint. She turned back.

11 Q. Apart from those two encounters, when Zoran

12 Vukovic came to escort you to the KP Dom with these

13 other soldiers, and the second encounter in the prison

14 itself where you were, were there any other contacts

15 between Zoran Vukovic and yourself?

16 A. I think not.

17 Q. I have only one more question. A moment ago,

18 in answering a question put to you by my colleagues,

19 you mentioned a morning and a freshly washed car.

20 Apart from the fact that the car had been washed, had

21 you noticed anything else? Let me help you. Traces of

22 blood, parts of bullets, parts of clothing, anything in

23 that car.

24 A. No. All I said was that it had been freshly

25 washed. And until then, we serviced all vehicles,

Page 2176

1 including change of oil, washing, and everything else,

2 so I found this a bit suspicious. But I didn't see any

3 traces of anything.

4 Q. So the only thing you found strange was that

5 the vehicle had been washed in the morning.

6 A. Exactly.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

8 if I may consult with my colleagues for a moment. But

9 I think I'm almost done.


11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have only

13 one more question, I think, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. When Zoran Vukovic came with that truck, or

17 perhaps on any other occasion, did he bring you

18 anything? Did he bring some pills for somebody, or

19 something like that?

20 Let me try and help you. Did he bring some

21 cigarettes and some tins of food, and for a certain

22 person, some pills? You see, I mustn't give you the

23 name. Do you remember that, anything like that?

24 A. It's quite possible.

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

Page 2177

1 Your Honour. I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Re-examination. I

3 almost forgot you.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. Thank you,

5 Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

7 Thank you, Witness, for giving evidence to

8 the Tribunal. You are now free to go.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are the witnesses that

10 we had lined up for this week, Your Honour. Next week,

11 which I understand will start on Tuesday, we will start

12 with two victim witnesses.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I'd hope that the list, as

14 usual, will be provided at least before the end of the

15 day.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely. We have it now,

17 and I think we've actually already provided it on the

18 12th of April.


20 MR. RYNEVELD: To my knowledge, that list

21 remains intact.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

23 The proceedings are adjourned until Tuesday,

24 0930 hours.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

Page 2178

1 10.38 a.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

2 the 25th day of April, 2000, at

3 9.30 a.m.























Page 2179













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