Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2342

1 Wednesday, 26 April 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Would the registrar

7 please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case

9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. You are

12 still under solemn declaration and the

13 cross-examination will continue.

14 Counsel, continuing cross-examination.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may, just before my

16 learned friend starts the continuation of the cross --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: I'd like to indicate that you

19 might find this morning before you a copy of a letter

20 that we have sent for the benefit of the Defence and

21 for the Court to the effect that, time permitting, we

22 will be adding Witness 96 to the potential line-up of

23 witnesses this week, time permitting.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: We didn't want to be in a

Page 2343

1 situation running out of witnesses again.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's a good

5 precaution. I hope the Defence counsel will take note

6 and prepare for cross-examination of FWS-96, should we

7 come to that this week.

8 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

10 we received through the interpretation number 87, but

11 we now see that it is 96, and that is where I had got

12 on my hind legs. But now that is all right and I see

13 that it is 96, because the translation I was getting

14 was number 87. But as it's 96, that's fine. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you start, I think it's

17 a precaution sometimes, innocent documents like these

18 could be given also to the interpreters. It would save

19 us a lot of interpretation problems.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: I see that, Your Honour, and

21 it's a point we'll take into consideration. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

23 WITNESS: WITNESS 95 [Resumed]

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

25 [Cont'd]

Page 2344

1 Q. Good morning, witness.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. When you gave your statements to the

4 investigators of the Tribunal, you stressed that during

5 the time that you were in Partizan, a journalist came

6 to visit, a female journalist.

7 A. Yes, she did.

8 Q. How many times did she come?

9 A. Twice.

10 Q. Were you present when she arrived?

11 A. Once I was. The first time I was not, but

12 the second time I was.

13 Q. And that first time you weren't there, you

14 say?

15 A. No, I was not present.

16 Q. Were you in Gorazde at the time?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. When you returned from Gorazde, did somebody

19 tell you that a journalist had come?

20 A. Yes, they did.

21 Q. Who told you?

22 A. Well, I don't remember. Some of the people

23 who were there.

24 Q. Did they tell you what was discussed with the

25 journalist at the time?

Page 2345

1 A. Yes, they did. They told me that they asked

2 how the people were, whether they were abused, whether

3 they were raped. There were three girls who were taken

4 out later on that same day, I think. Yes, they were

5 taken away that same day, never to return. And these

6 young girls, if you want to know, I could tell you

7 their -- well, not names but their numbers. They were

8 75, 87, and -- just one moment, please -- and DB.

9 Q. So on that day, after the journalists were

10 there, when you returned from Gorazde, they were taken

11 away; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And they never returned?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you told who took them away?

16 A. I think that people did say, but I don't

17 remember who they said had taken them away.

18 Q. Do you remember who told you who took them

19 away?

20 A. No, I don't remember.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just correct one thing?

22 When the witness -- when you say that they were never

23 returned, you mean up till the time you left that

24 place, you never saw them again?

25 A. I don't understand your question. Could you

Page 2346

1 repeat it, please?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel was asking you about

3 some of the girls who were taken away after the

4 journalist had been to Partizan, and that they were

5 never brought back to Partizan. When you say they were

6 never brought back, do you mean that they were never

7 brought back during the time that you were there?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please proceed.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. In 1993 were you 28 years old?

12 A. Sixty -- just one moment, please.

13 Q. In 1993, I'm asking.

14 A. Yes, 23.

15 Q. No. In 1993, does that mean 28?

16 A. Yes, 28. Not quite -- well, yes, yes, that's

17 right.

18 Q. In 1993 did you live on the territory of the

19 former Yugoslavia?

20 A. In 1993, no.

21 Q. Do you remember whether in 1993, in October,

22 you gave a statement in front of cameras?

23 A. As far as those statements are concerned, I

24 gave one in Pazar, but how many statements I actually

25 gave and where, I do not remember, because I made a lot

Page 2347

1 of statements, and I do not wish the truth to be

2 hidden.

3 Q. Do you remember who you gave the statement to

4 in front of cameras?

5 A. No, I don't remember, and I'm not interested

6 in that today at all.

7 Q. Do you happen to recall that to some of the

8 journalists, the people you talked to, you mentioned a

9 list of names of Chetniks?

10 A. Well, probably I did mention it, yes, but I

11 could probably not remember those names now.

12 Q. I am going to, with the Court's permission,

13 give you a translation of a statement that you made in

14 English and in Serbian --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can you please

16 describe the document sufficiently for everybody to be

17 able to follow which document we are discussing?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is the

19 document we received from the Prosecution, and it has

20 been assigned Number 815106, and that document contains

21 the name and surname of the witness, her age, her place

22 of birth, and her statement that she accepts making a

23 statement in front of cameras. The document exists in

24 English, and we received it from our learned colleague

25 yesterday, and I think it was tendered to the Registry

Page 2348

1 and the Trial Chamber.

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, and it

3 will be marked D42.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: For identification only,

5 Counsel.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Have you got the statement in front of you?

8 A. Yes, I have.

9 Q. Take a look at page 3 of that statement.

10 I apologise. I read -- the particulars on

11 page 1, do they refer to you? You don't have to read

12 them out, but is it correct?

13 A. Yes, it says my name. That's correct. Yes,

14 yes.

15 Q. Your place of birth?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the statement that you accept being

18 interviewed on camera?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now look at page 3 of that statement. On

21 page 3, the third paragraph, it begins with your name,

22 and you say that you have a list. Did you, in fact,

23 state that, and did you have a list?

24 A. Well, whether I had that list and whether I

25 still remembered that, I don't know, although it was

Page 2349

1 fresh in my mind at the time. So if I stated that I

2 did have it, then most probably they told me that they

3 would come, so I compiled a list of that kind, because

4 at that particular time when you make statements of any

5 kind, individuals who have lived through and

6 experienced everything wouldn't be able to remember all

7 the names. But probably they told me in advance that

8 they were coming. And, yes, I made a statement. I

9 don't want to say that I didn't. They probably told me

10 in advance, and then I was able to compile a list. And

11 I stand by everything I stated here, because I always

12 told the truth.

13 Q. In this statement, probably according to the

14 list that you yourself made, you enumerate many names

15 and surnames, and you stated that you know them all.

16 On page 1 -- I don't want to read them all out, but you

17 begin with Pero Elez and the others?

18 A. Not that I knew them before but that they

19 would come -- came by at that time, at that moment.

20 Q. What moment?

21 A. Well, the moment that we were at the

22 secondary school building or Partizan; I'm not quite

23 sure. But the fact is that they came there.

24 Q. You even mention here, for the individuals on

25 the first page, what they were and how they looked,

Page 2350

1 your description of them?

2 A. Yes, if that's what it says. I can't read

3 through it all now, because I was never in a court of

4 law. I'm very nervous to be here. But what I did

5 state then, it was fresh in my mind, and it's probably

6 more exact than when you ask me now. When I read

7 through the names, I do remember them. But if I were

8 to read through five minutes later and if you were to

9 ask me who all the names were, I probably couldn't

10 repeat them.

11 Q. On page 4 of your statement, you mention

12 Zaga; the second line.

13 A. Just one moment, please. Do you want me to

14 read it out?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. "A man described as Zaga was also a prominent

17 figure. He is said to be the leader of the group from

18 Montenegro."

19 Q. Who described Kunarac to you?

20 A. Well, probably I described him before. Now,

21 whether this is stated or not, I don't remember,

22 because as I say, I gave many statements. And if I

23 were to give you a figure, I would probably be wrong,

24 but many, many of them.

25 Q. What did you know about Zaga when you had

Page 2351

1 that interview?

2 A. What did I know? Well, quite simply, I knew

3 what I stated here, madam.

4 Q. Well, you stated that he was the leader of a

5 group?

6 A. Well, yes. Probably that was fresher in my

7 mind, because that was only a year after the event and

8 so my memory was far better then than it is now.

9 Q. Did you say anything else, apart from what

10 you said?

11 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

12 Q. Why, on that occasion when you said all this,

13 did you not say that Kunarac had raped you?

14 A. Why I didn't say that? Well, I think that

15 all the people that I mentioned, I spoke the truth, and

16 I don't know, I would have to read through all that.

17 That's the first point. I would have to read through

18 this document to know exactly what I said, what I

19 stated in it. But I do stand by everything that I

20 stated.

21 Q. Well, in your statement, just in this portion

22 of the statement, you mention in general terms that

23 Zaga was a prominent figure, and you say nothing else

24 about him?

25 A. Well, probably that was in the short

Page 2352

1 interview that I had with the journalist, because in

2 the 40 -- to recount everything that happened to me in

3 those 40 days while my memory is fresh, I would need at

4 least ten days to tell my story and I still wouldn't

5 tell it all.

6 Q. But you said that you gave many, many

7 interviews?

8 A. Yes. Why not?

9 Q. Now, in those interviews or in your

10 statements, did you go into the details that were

11 probably fresh in your mind at the time?

12 A. Well, I don't remember that I went into

13 detail, but I talked about it in general terms. Their

14 questions were general, and what they asked me, I

15 answered. Whether I went into details or not, I really

16 don't remember.

17 Q. Well, you told us here yesterday, during your

18 testimony, that Mr. Kunarac took you off to Osman

19 Dzikic's house?

20 A. I don't know whose house it was.

21 Q. But you said that. You said, "In the street

22 by the Aladza mosque." Is that that street?

23 A. To Aladza, yes. Now, what the name of the

24 street was, I really don't know, and I don't believe

25 that I stated that yesterday. I don't believe I gave

Page 2353

1 the name of the street yesterday.

2 Q. Do you know whether a street like that exists

3 in Foca?

4 A. I don't remember anymore.

5 Q. When you were in that house by Aladza, you

6 said yesterday that Kunarac raped you for the first

7 time?

8 A. The first and second time, yes, when he took

9 me there.

10 Q. And was it that first time when you were with

11 him, you said that there were two other people, 90 and

12 105, with you?

13 A. Just one moment, please. Let me check. Yes,

14 90 and 105, that's correct.

15 Q. When you were in that house, were you just

16 raped by Kunarac?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Did these other two individuals tell you who

19 raped them?

20 A. I don't remember that either.

21 Q. When you were there for the second time, when

22 was that?

23 A. I don't remember the date.

24 Q. You said yesterday that it was before -- that

25 is, that the first time you went, you saw the Aladza

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Page 2355

1 mosque?

2 A. Yes. But the second time I went, the Aladza

3 mosque wasn't standing.

4 Q. And how long after that -- how long was it

5 after you heard that the Aladza mosque had been

6 destroyed?

7 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly, but -- no,

8 I'm afraid I can't tell you the exact date;

9 unfortunately, I cannot.

10 Q. Who did you go to the house on that occasion

11 with?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Who took you there?

14 A. I don't remember that either.

15 Q. Did Kunarac take you there or some of the

16 other soldiers?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Who was with you on that occasion, that

19 second occasion?

20 A. I don't remember that either. I don't

21 remember who was with me then, because I said

22 everything -- everybody except number 51. All of them

23 were taken out with me, except that particular

24 individual. Where, when, what time, I no longer

25 remember any of that because I don't wish to think

Page 2356

1 about it, I don't wish to recollect it.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you

3 very much. I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Counsel.

5 Mr. Kolesar, any questions?

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, any questions?

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence

10 of Mr. Vukovic does have questions.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not

12 hear the answer.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters didn't hear

14 your answer. Your microphone, yes.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I said, yes,

16 Your Honour, the Defence of Mr. Vukovic does have

17 questions for this witness.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please proceed.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

20 Your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

22 Q. Good morning.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. At the beginning of our conversation I have

25 to ask you: You have the list of the numbers and codes

Page 2357

1 in front of you. Do you know the persons marked as

2 FWS-50 and 51?

3 A. Which numbers?

4 Q. 50 and 51. Do you know them?

5 A. Yes, I know all these women.

6 Q. Can I ask you something, please. I'm going

7 to ask you questions, and you answer them for me,

8 please, as briefly as possible.

9 A. Okay.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask

11 the usher for his assistance, please.

12 Your Honour, with your permission, I should

13 like to show the witness the code and name of one of

14 the protected witnesses to avoid mentioning the name

15 and in order to ask her whether she knows that person.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are you related to these persons that I

18 referred to just now, these three persons?

19 A. I am not, but my husband is related to them.

20 Q. From your response, I assume one could say

21 you married into that family, as we like to put it.

22 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Therefore they are related to you as well as

24 to your husband, are they not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2358

1 Q. Are you in touch with your family, with the

2 persons that I have just listed?

3 A. No, I am not, because of various shifts and

4 various other reasons that I don't want to go into, I

5 have not been in touch with them for more than two

6 years.

7 Q. Thank you. Theoretically speaking, if we

8 forget the period prior to the war in Foca, you might

9 have seen Zoran Vukovic from the moment you were taken

10 into custody until you were released from Foca, in that

11 period of time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How long was that period of time?

14 A. I have forgotten the dates.

15 Q. The morning you were attacked was --

16 A. The 3rd of July until the 13th of August.

17 Forty days.

18 Q. Fine, 40 days. Why do you link Zoran Vukovic

19 to the Partizan Sports Hall?

20 A. I'm afraid I don't understand the question.

21 Can you repeat it?

22 Q. Of course. If there is a theoretical

23 probability that you could have seen Zoran Vukovic in

24 this 40-day period, why do you associate his appearance

25 in your life with the events in the Partizan Sports

Page 2359

1 Hall?

2 A. Because I am sure that he took me out.

3 Where, when --

4 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that. Just a

5 moment, please. Slowly.

6 Are you quite sure that this was only in

7 Partizan?

8 A. No, I'm not sure that it was only in

9 Partizan, or whether it was also in the secondary

10 school, but I am quite sure that he did take me out.

11 Q. So now you're mentioning the secondary school

12 as well.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Any other place?

15 A. I don't know what you mean, what other place,

16 because --

17 Q. Let me try and help you. I have been

18 listening to various locations, and I will list some of

19 them, and when I mention them, please stop me. For

20 instance, Mjesaja.

21 A. No, not in Mjesaja.

22 Q. Trosanj?

23 A. I wasn't in Trosanj.

24 Q. Buk Bijela?

25 A. Buk Bijela, when they returned me from the

Page 2360

1 stadium to Buk Bijela, I don't remember, because --

2 Q. Very well. The house in Aladza?

3 A. I don't remember where it is.

4 Q. The Gornje Polje, Donje Polje house?

5 A. I don't remember at all.

6 Q. Just let's take it slowly, please. Do you

7 remember or do you not remember?

8 A. I do not remember.

9 Q. If I understand you properly, you remember

10 that he took you out from the secondary school and from

11 the Partizan Sports Hall.

12 A. I am repeating again: I do not remember

13 whether he was in Buk Bijela on the 12th of August,

14 whether it was in the secondary school centre, or in

15 Partizan.

16 Q. If I am following what you are saying, you

17 don't remember where you saw Zoran Vukovic; you just

18 remember that you saw him.

19 A. Yes, I saw him, and I am quite sure that he

20 took me out and he raped me.

21 Q. But you don't know where that took place?

22 A. How can I know? I didn't know what day or

23 night it was, whether it was morning or what.

24 Q. But you told us yesterday that this happened,

25 or rather that Zoran Vukovic took you out from the

Page 2361

1 Partizan Sports Hall. Now you've told us that it also

2 occurred while you were in the secondary school centre,

3 and now you're telling us that you do not remember any

4 of those things. Please make up your mind.

5 A. I'm repeating: He took me out. Where from,

6 I don't remember. I am telling the truth. Whether it

7 was the secondary school centre, Partizan, or Buk

8 Bijela, I don't remember, but I am sure 100 per cent

9 that he did it.

10 Q. You're always telling the truth, and you

11 expect that by repeating that truth, that truth will be

12 spread in the world. That is what you have been

13 repeating yesterday and today innumerable times.

14 A. Yes. Why should the truth be covered up? I

15 agree with you. Whatever side committed crimes has to

16 be punished. I quite agree with you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Please wait for the

18 interpretation.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

20 Honour. I'm sorry. I get carried away.

21 Q. So there is only one truth; so we can agree

22 on that, can we not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you ever tell anyone that Zoran Vukovic

25 took you out and raped you from the secondary school

Page 2362

1 centre?

2 A. Now, I do not remember.

3 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you quite well.

4 You don't remember whether you told anyone or you --

5 A. No. I don't remember whether I told anyone,

6 but probably in those statements to the media, the

7 longer ones --

8 Q. Let me clarify the question. Did you ever

9 tell the Tribunal's investigators that Zoran Vukovic

10 had taken you while you were in the secondary school

11 centre and raped you?

12 A. You have in front of you, as I do, the

13 statements I made, the many things I said.

14 Q. Yes. You said a great many things. That's

15 why we're talking about it.

16 A. Whether they asked me that particular

17 question, I don't remember.

18 Q. So you think that perhaps you may have told

19 the investigators and they didn't take it down?

20 A. No, that's not what I mean. If I mentioned

21 it, and I think I did, I don't think I mentioned any

22 particular one in detail. I described things in

23 general terms.

24 Q. You see, I'm not asking you anything

25 generally; I'm asking you things very specifically.

Page 2363

1 A. I think I did mention his name.

2 Q. You see, we could slowly go through both your

3 statements to the investigators, your statement to the

4 journalists, but this would take a great deal of time.

5 But I can tell you that you did not mention him in any

6 of those statements.

7 A. Sir, after so many men, I simply could not

8 register all of them.

9 Q. I understand. We have heard your version of

10 the story. My question now is --

11 A. What is the question?

12 Q. The question is the following: The

13 indictment charges Zoran Vukovic of taking you out and

14 raping you in the secondary school centre. At the

15 beginning of trial this was given to us in the list.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there is no

18 charge on this. There's no charge on this.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I hope you have

20 heard -- you have the indictment. Why don't you quote

21 the count?

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

23 I had not intended to go through the indictment count

24 by count. I just wanted to say that in the document

25 that we were given by the Prosecution at the beginning

Page 2364

1 of trial, on a piece of paper, a map of events was

2 drawn, linked to the various locations and persons.

3 Mr. Zoran Vukovic, in relation to this witness who is

4 testifying today, is marked as a person who raped in

5 the secondary school centre. I'm talking about this

6 document, Your Honour. We have all received a copy at

7 the beginning of trial. The witness FWS-95, Vukovic,

8 Foca High School. I think that's how you pronounce it.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but you know how to

10 interpret such documents. And look at the witness.

11 She is not the Prosecutor. So ask her questions,

12 factual questions, all right? Don't take the legal

13 interpretation of the Prosecutor and put it to the

14 witness. That is not how you do it.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 I'm sorry if I did not phrase my question properly, but

17 let me try and rephrase it.

18 Q. Did the witness tell the investigators that

19 Zoran Vukovic had raped her in the secondary school

20 centre?

21 A. I don't know. I probably did, but when, I

22 don't know.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me explain the other

24 problem I think I'm noticing. You see, every

25 investigator, just like every journalist, has his own

Page 2365

1 or her own agenda, and when they're interviewing

2 anybody, they will ask questions elicited to produce

3 what they want for their own agenda. So even the

4 investigators who go to these witnesses have their own

5 agenda, and they only elicit from the witness what they

6 want to fulfil their own agenda, all right?

7 So it's totally different from the Court

8 situation, because we have an indictment before us and

9 we want only evidence to cover the indictment, that's

10 all. You've heard me so many times cautioning

11 witnesses: Only answer questions put to you by

12 counsel. All right? So when you are dealing with what

13 you said to this investigator, what you said to this

14 journalist, always remember that. The witness knows so

15 much about what happened to her, so much about what

16 happened during the war. And this was war time. So

17 everybody has their own agenda. So whatever is

18 elicited, signed by the witness, is according to that

19 agenda. Please remember that.

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

21 Your Honour. I shall strictly abide by your

22 instructions.

23 But as Defence counsel for Zoran Vukovic, I

24 have to put these questions to the witness, in view of

25 the fact that nowhere in the materials disclosed to us

Page 2366

1 is any mention made of Zoran Vukovic, never mind the

2 high school. That is why I'm asking the witness that

3 perhaps there may be a misunderstanding of some sort if

4 the investigator did not do his work properly. That's

5 why I'm asking the witness, did she say that, when she

6 said that, to clear this thing up, because as Defence

7 counsel, I do have an interest because, after all,

8 Zoran Vukovic has been charged with this.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Don't you think that you have

11 got an answer from her now? She says she may have, she

12 doesn't know. Now, you don't have to accept that and

13 you can challenge it. But by asking the same question

14 over and over again doesn't really help us, and I'm

15 sure it's not helping your client. That's what our

16 concern is. Let us get on with the matter. You've

17 made the point. It's not referred to in any of the

18 statements. You've asked her whether she may,

19 nevertheless, have said it. She said she may have, she

20 doesn't remember. Now, if you want to challenge that

21 last answer, do so, but don't keep asking the same and

22 other questions over and over again, please.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will not,

24 Your Honour. If I may have a moment, please.

25 Q. If we assume that it is possible that you

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Page 2368

1 made such a statement, do you remember that statement?

2 A. No, I do not.

3 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

4 A. No, I do not remember.

5 Q. Thank you. I should like to talk to you

6 about the Partizan Sports Hall.

7 At the beginning, let me ask you whether

8 yesterday, here in court and in front of all of us, did

9 you say for the first time that Zoran Vukovic took you

10 out of the Partizan Sports Hall and raped you?

11 A. I don't understand the question.

12 Q. My question is: Did you, for the first time

13 yesterday, state that Zoran Vukovic took you out of the

14 Partizan Sports Hall and rape you?

15 A. I'm sure that that was not the first time,

16 that I had mentioned his name previously.

17 Q. Can you tell us, when did you mention his

18 name earlier on in connection with Partizan, to whom

19 and when?

20 A. I don't remember to whom, where, or when. I

21 wasn't interested. All I know is that he did. But the

22 dates for me are not important.

23 Q. I'm not interested in dates either. I'm just

24 interested in what I have just asked you. Zoran

25 Vukovic is not mentioned in any of the statements at

Page 2369

1 our disposal in connection with Partizan. That's why

2 I'm asking you whether you said this for the first time

3 yesterday or not.

4 A. No, it wasn't the first time.

5 Q. You don't remember when you mentioned Zoran

6 Vukovic before yesterday?

7 A. No, I don't remember.

8 Q. I assume, and you have confirmed now, that

9 you remember the things you went through. Of course, I

10 understand that you cannot remember all the details of

11 the things that happened during that 40-day period

12 because it was eight years ago, but you remember the

13 events?

14 A. Not any one of us who went through this can

15 remember those events in detail.

16 Q. Yes. But you remember them in general terms,

17 not of the details?

18 A. It's almost eight years, isn't it.

19 Q. You don't remember the details?

20 A. No.

21 Q. But you do remember the events?

22 A. Not individually.

23 Q. I'm asking you specifically. Let me make

24 myself clear. All my questions refer exclusively to

25 Zoran Vukovic.

Page 2370

1 A. No, I don't remember.

2 Q. I'm sorry. I don't understand what it is you

3 don't remember.

4 A. I don't remember the details linked

5 specifically to him.

6 Q. Yes, you don't remember the details. But you

7 remember the event?

8 A. No, I don't remember the event either,

9 because I want to forget as soon as I possibly can.

10 Q. During the identification yesterday, you said

11 that you remember well the face -- page 50, lines 1 to

12 12 of the LiveNote -- and that he looked the same, only

13 his hair is a little longer. You mean now or before?

14 A. Before, it was longer.

15 Q. From that, I infer that you remember the face

16 well.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know his name, the name of that

19 person?

20 A. Are we talking about Zoran Vukovic? At the

21 time, at first I didn't know, but somebody said that

22 that was his name. Who said it, I don't remember.

23 Q. Can you remember when you linked the face to

24 the name?

25 A. That face and that name, I linked the two

Page 2371

1 yesterday when I saw people who had known him.

2 Q. Just a moment, please. If I'm following

3 well, yesterday, when you entered the courtroom, you

4 linked that face to that name?

5 A. Yes, because I can't recollect those names

6 anymore, nor do I want to remember the names or the

7 faces.

8 Q. Very well. Yesterday, in your statement, you

9 said -- regarding the events in which you and Zoran

10 Vukovic were participants, I shall try to summarise,

11 but please correct me if I go wrong. You don't

12 remember how many times that happened?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You don't remember who Zoran Vukovic came

15 with, alone or with others?

16 A. No, I don't remember.

17 Q. You don't remember where he took you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You don't remember whom he took you with?

20 A. I don't remember that either.

21 Q. You don't remember where he took you?

22 A. I don't remember that either.

23 Q. Well, then how can you be sure that it is

24 precisely Zoran Vukovic and that it happened precisely

25 in Partizan, when you can't remember anything else

Page 2372

1 apart from his face, with a slightly longer or shorter

2 hair?

3 A. I don't understand the question, sir. Can

4 you repeat it?

5 Q. I will. You have just confirmed that you

6 didn't remember the face, you don't remember all these

7 things?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. May I ask you the questions, please? You

10 have just confirmed that in relation to Zoran Vukovic,

11 you do not remember absolutely anything except Zoran

12 Vukovic, a person who looked in such and such a manner

13 and who had longer or shorter hair; you don't remember

14 anything else?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My question is how, then, can you be sure

17 that that is the Zoran Vukovic who took you out from

18 Partizan, the high school, or from any other place when

19 you don't remember anything else?

20 A. I'm quite sure it is his face. I don't need

21 his name.

22 Q. I'm not denying that you may have seen him

23 somewhere. My question is quite a different one. Will

24 you please answer my question?

25 A. How can I be sure? I can be sure because of

Page 2373

1 his face.

2 Q. But, you see, that puts us in a rather

3 strange situation, if you see someone somewhere and, on

4 the basis of having seen him, you simply infer that

5 such and such a thing happened with that person.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Yes. But you don't remember anything except

8 for Zoran Vukovic?

9 A. I don't remember his name, I don't remember

10 his name just now. I just remember his face, sir.

11 Q. Tell me, please, as you have just said that

12 that happened yesterday when you came here into the

13 courtroom, that you linked up Zoran Vukovic, the name,

14 the face, and everything else, what happened when you

15 entered the courtroom? You remembered something; is

16 that right?

17 A. Yes. I remembered that because I was so

18 nervous, I was so tense, that I could have screamed.

19 Q. I'm interested in knowing what you remembered

20 exactly. This happened yesterday.

21 A. How do you mean, what I remembered? When I

22 saw his face, when I saw his face. I didn't know his

23 name, I didn't know his surname, nor am I interested in

24 that today either. But when I saw his face, I was so

25 angry, so terribly angry and nervous.

Page 2374

1 Q. So if I understand you correctly, when you

2 came in here, you recognised him, but you didn't

3 remember anything?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Very well.

6 A. Because of all the people that were there,

7 how could I remember all their names?

8 Q. Very well. You said several times here that

9 your memory, recollections -- and this is, of course,

10 quite natural -- were much better --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, after the questions

12 you've just asked and the witness's answers, she has

13 rushed in, okay, so please proceed with your questions,

14 understanding that we've been through that.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

16 Honour, and I am continuing with my questions. My next

17 question has nothing to do with the previous one.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] My question

20 is now as follows:

21 Q. Why -- let me put it this way: As you knew

22 that face so well and your memory was so good eight

23 years ago, why did you not at any time mention that

24 face to anybody, describe it, say what the man had done

25 to you, what you had experienced, because the truth

Page 2375

1 should be known?

2 A. Yes, that's true, that would have been very

3 easy, it would be easy for me to describe him. But how

4 could I describe him when I didn't know what his name

5 was? How could I describe him? What should I say? I

6 know all their faces, but I do not know their names.

7 Carry on, continue.

8 Q. I shall. Thank you. May we return -- we

9 could return and read through your statements again

10 here, but in your statements you describe other people

11 as well, people whose names you didn't know either.

12 You didn't only say names, and you didn't say that and

13 that individual did such and such a thing, but there

14 are a certain number -- I don't want to quote the exact

15 number -- there are a certain number of other people

16 for whom you say did such and such a thing, without

17 mentioning their names, whereas this individual did

18 serious harm to you?

19 A. Not only him but many others too, and

20 therefore I don't know how many of them there were.

21 Q. But you remember him?

22 A. Not only his face but all their faces. I

23 remember all their faces, but not their names; nor am I

24 interested in them.

25 Q. In my opinion, it is quite normal, when

Page 2376

1 somebody attacks somebody, that the victim need not

2 know the name of her aggressor, attacker, and that is

3 why I find it strange.

4 I have another set of questions to ask you

5 now.

6 Before your testimony yesterday here in the

7 courtroom, did you -- that is to say, did you talk to

8 anybody from the Prosecution before giving your

9 statement, that is to say, in the last four, or five,

10 or six days; a week, let's say?

11 A. How do you mean? I don't understand what you

12 mean.

13 Q. What I mean is this: Did you, before you

14 appeared to give your testimony here in court

15 yesterday, did you have a meeting with the Prosecution?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. On that occasion, did they tell you what they

18 were going to ask you, what photographs they were going

19 to show you, and things of that kind?

20 A. Well, no, they just -- not to tell me what

21 they would ask, they just said, "The papers you have

22 already given earlier, stated earlier, do you remember

23 that?" And I said that, "I remember all of that, but

24 to a lesser extent," which is normal in view of the

25 amount of time.

Page 2377

1 Q. I asked you that because something very

2 strange happened here in the courtroom yesterday, and

3 luckily everything is recorded here, and when the usher

4 came up to you to give you a photograph -- I don't

5 remember the exact number -- before he arrived, before

6 he actually reached you, you identified what was on the

7 photograph?

8 A. Yes, but the photograph is a big one, and I

9 know what it -- the secondary school looks like and the

10 Partizan looks like. I know that well enough and I'll

11 never forget it. And he was carrying it from there and

12 I could see it. It's not that you couldn't see it. I

13 could see it. And, sir, you can read names from there,

14 let alone see photographs.

15 Q. No, I can't, madam, but very well.

16 In your statement which was given number

17 75 -- it was Exhibit 75 -- on page 8, paragraph 6, you

18 said, "Some other men journalists I knew speak about

19 events from the Partizan Sports Hall and the arrival of

20 the journalists." If I understand you correctly, the

21 journalists came twice, did they not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The first time you were not present?

24 A. No, I was not present.

25 Q. On the second occasion you were present?

Page 2378

1 A. Yes, I was present, and they talked to me.

2 Q. In your statement you say that the

3 journalists were men.

4 A. The first time there was a woman who came,

5 and the second time there were two men.

6 Q. But you didn't see the female journalist?

7 A. No, I didn't see the female journalist,

8 because she came on the first occasion.

9 Q. Well, how would you recognise her in the

10 street, which you said yesterday? You said, "If I were

11 to see her in the street, I would recognise her."

12 That's what you said yesterday.

13 A. Well, she came.

14 Q. Who?

15 A. The journalist, the woman journalist.

16 Q. When?

17 A. In front of the Partizan. She didn't go into

18 the Partizan, because I was sitting by the door, and

19 two men were talking to me. She was not. She was in

20 front of the door, and this was at a distance of, say,

21 from here to where you're standing.

22 Q. So you remember that. You remember that

23 event and you have now recounted it to me.

24 A. Yes. I remember her face.

25 Q. Why did you never describe that in that way?

Page 2379

1 A. How do you mean, describe?

2 Q. Why did you never tell what you are telling

3 me here today to anybody before, that the journalist

4 was outside, that I --

5 A. Did I ever mention details here? No, I did

6 not. I speak in general terms.

7 Q. Well, very well. I'm asking you the details

8 now. We have to come to the details sometime.

9 A. Okay.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. She didn't give

11 details because she wasn't asked for details. So don't

12 say, "How come you never described this?"

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

14 with all due respect to the Court, and without any wish

15 to understand what I'm saying as any sort of criticism

16 or uncouthness on my part, we do not know what the

17 investigators asked her, and I am trying to get at

18 that, what it was.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, without repeating the same

20 questions.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Listening to your testimony here yesterday, I

23 came to a conclusion, and that is that on the basis of

24 the appearance of an individual, you are able to -- on

25 the basis of somebody's appearance, that you know what

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Page 2381

1 happened to that individual immediately beforehand. We

2 have two examples of this. One example is Witness 48

3 and the events which -- the event which took place in

4 your presence but from another room. You know what I

5 mean?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That is one occurrence. The second event was

8 linked to Witness 50. Her code number is 50. Very

9 well. Now, I'm interested in getting the following

10 explanation from you. You see Witness 50, for

11 example. You see her going out of the workers'

12 barracks in Buk Bijela, I think.

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. What happened to her?

15 A. I don't know in concrete terms specifically

16 what happened to her, but this girl -- she's now a

17 woman -- left all covered -- all red and crying. I

18 couldn't know that they would be -- that they would do

19 this to her, but later on I came to realise and

20 understood what was going on and what was happening.

21 Q. So at that particular moment you don't know

22 what had actually happened to her?

23 A. Well, how could I know exactly when I didn't

24 actually see it?

25 Q. Well, that's why I'm asking you, because you

Page 2382

1 said that you saw her and you knew what had happened.

2 A. Well, I saw what she looked like, but I

3 wasn't conscious of the fact that that was what they

4 were going to do to her and that was what they did to

5 her. But when it happened to me and when Tuta raped

6 me, then I knew what had happened to her.

7 Q. Very well. So your knowledge and realisation

8 came later on, not at that particular moment?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Very well. Now, these doubts of yours as to

11 the events that Witness 50 went through, did anybody

12 confirm this, confirm your doubts, anybody?

13 A. Well, it's like this: That young girl, after

14 she left the Partizan Sports Hall, she was not in Novi

15 Pazar, and I never saw her again. And it's stupid to

16 speak about it over the phone, particularly for a young

17 girl, an unmarried girl.

18 Q. I just asked you whether she or anybody else

19 confirmed your doubts as to what had happened to her.

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Suspicions.

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Do you know what happened to her?

24 A. Well, yes, I can assume, and I am 99 per cent

25 certain of what happened to her.

Page 2383

1 Q. Very well. Do you know whether Witness 50,

2 in the experience she had, the event that took place

3 and the incident she took part in, did she recount this

4 to anybody else?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Do you know whether that witness made

7 statements as well to the investigators of the Tribunal

8 and that she testified before this Trial Chamber?

9 A. I don't know, and I wasn't interested. And

10 it would be shameful if any of them were to cover the

11 truth, try to mask the truth.

12 Q. Well, yes. That is precisely why I am asking

13 you that question. If it is a shame not to tell the

14 truth and to hide the truth, and if you and all of us

15 here wish to learn the truth, then I'm interested in

16 knowing why you kept quiet for eight years.

17 A. I did not keep quiet, because I gave

18 statements. I gave statements both to the

19 investigators and to the journalists and to everybody

20 else. I went public on television even.

21 Q. Yesterday here for the first time you talked

22 about the event in Buk Bijela, and that is precisely

23 why I'm asking you my question.

24 A. No, that's not true. It's not true that I

25 did so the first time.

Page 2384

1 Q. I apologise for taking up everybody's time,

2 but I have to return --

3 A. Just one moment, please. Are you thinking

4 about number 50? Is that what you're asking about,

5 number 50? If you're asking about number 50, we didn't

6 like to talk about it, because she was not married.

7 She was a young girl. She is now a woman, married, and

8 has a child.

9 Q. Very well. We'll come to that in a moment.

10 A. And sir, I am not interested in any of the

11 other women. I'm interested in myself personally.

12 Q. But the truth should be known; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Very well, then. Let's go ahead. A moment

15 ago, towards the end of your questioning, you said,

16 when you took a look at the list in front of you, that

17 except for individual under number 51, that all the

18 others were taken out together with you in different --

19 at different times, and that they were all raped.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Right. Now I should like to ask you to

22 explain the difference to me between the events that

23 took place in Buk Bijela -- and I am exclusively

24 speaking about number 50. I'm speaking about number

25 50, just so we're clear on that. Now, you explain the

Page 2385

1 difference to me. There is an occurrence that takes

2 place in Buk Bijela, which you did not see, and you

3 conclude, assume something, because you see what the

4 person looks like, and you say that 99 per cent you're

5 sure of what that meant and you don't wish to speak

6 about that, for some -- let us say some reasons. That

7 is to say, you wish to protect that individual. But,

8 on the other hand, you can state that that particular

9 individual, and she is a young girl, because it all

10 happens in the space of 40 days, was raped afterwards,

11 I don't know how many times, by the Serbs. Now, where

12 is the difference there? Why can you say one thing and

13 not say another?

14 A. Well, I don't think I mention her name

15 anywhere. I just enumerate. But at that particular

16 moment, probably unconsciously I said later on that she

17 was later on raped, probably not consciously, because I

18 was very sorry for all the other girls and what

19 happened to them here on this list.

20 Q. Yes, I understand you. When you said -- when

21 you spoke a moment ago, you were saying it

22 unconsciously?

23 A. Yes, I unconsciously said that number 50 was

24 raped. If I stated later on -- I think because, as I

25 say, they are relatives of my husband, my husband's

Page 2386

1 family.

2 Q. So you're protecting her, are you?

3 A. Well, of course I'm protecting her.

4 Q. Why? Don't you wish the individuals to be

5 punished?

6 A. Yes, I do, and I want to state the truth.

7 She is now a married woman. She has her own family.

8 Q. Yes. That's very -- that's all right. We

9 don't want to go into what she is now. But explain

10 another point to me, please. Had this trial not come

11 about, and had you not been invited to attend here as a

12 witness, you would never have ever told anybody what

13 happened to Witness 50 in Buk Bijela, for example, and

14 what happened to her later on in the secondary school,

15 the Partizan Sports Hall, or wherever?

16 A. Well, I would have told somebody, as she had

17 married.

18 Q. I see. So we had to wait for her to get

19 married for you to be able to recount these things.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When did she get married?

22 A. I don't know exactly, but she has a child.

23 She has -- perhaps two years. Two years ago.

24 Q. You mean she was married two years ago?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2387

1 Q. And you said nothing to anybody for two

2 years?

3 A. What do you mean, I didn't? In these last

4 two years, after these two years, yes, I did say.

5 Q. Very well.

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

7 I am drawing to the end of my questions, but may I just

8 have a minute to consult with my colleagues, please?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

10 [Defence counsel confer]

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,

12 but I shall need just a moment to find the portion of

13 the witness's statement, because my colleagues have

14 indicated it to me.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. Go ahead.

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

17 Honour, I've found it, but I think that I would run the

18 risk of repetition, and my question would be why she

19 said in her testimony that nobody, et cetera,

20 et cetera, et cetera, and I don't wish to repeat

21 myself.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Do as you please,

23 Mr. Jovanovic. You know the case better.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I just want to ask you one further thing.

Page 2388

1 The other people here on the list that you have before

2 you, we know that number 51 was a slightly older

3 person, of course conditionally speaking. But out of

4 these others on the list, could you tell us who was the

5 same age as Witness 50?

6 A. Well, I don't know the exact date, but I

7 think -- their ages exactly, but I think she was about

8 16 years. She was first-form secondary school. She

9 was a minor.

10 Q. Who?

11 A. Number 50.

12 Q. Are you listening to me? Do you hear what

13 I'm asking you?

14 A. Do you mean 50 or 51?

15 Q. No, I'm not referring to 50 or 51, but all

16 the others, all the rest, except those two numbers.

17 A. You mean how old they were, roughly?

18 Q. Yes. My question is --

19 A. Could you repeat your question, please? I

20 didn't hear you properly.

21 Q. My question was the following: Of all the

22 individuals on the list, how many of them were of a

23 similar age to Witness 50?

24 A. 50, you say. I think two of them.

25 Q. Which two?

Page 2389

1 A. DB and 87.

2 Q. Were they married at that time?

3 A. No, they weren't.

4 Q. But you didn't protect them.

5 A. Because they were no relation to my husband.

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

7 Your Honours. I have no further questions.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.

9 Any re-examination by the Prosecution?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I

11 have a few questions.

12 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

13 Q. Witness, yesterday and today you have

14 discussed your previous two statements you gave to the

15 Prosecutor's office, and in addition you also discussed

16 with the Defence counsel an interview that you gave in

17 what you think was Novi Pazar.

18 When you arrived in The Hague and when you

19 discussed the upcoming statement with the Prosecutor,

20 were you given these three statements for reading? Did

21 you read all this before?

22 A. These statements?

23 Q. Yes. Did you read these statements, all

24 these documents that you discussed?

25 A. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. They were not

Page 2390

1 given to me; nor did I read them.

2 Q. Yesterday, when you discussed your statement

3 from 1996, you said that you discussed all these rapes

4 in general terms with the investigators and you were

5 not focusing so much on specific perpetrators at that

6 time; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, correct. I did not go into details with

8 any of your investigators or the journalists. I have

9 to repeat, ten days wouldn't be long enough to tell the

10 whole statement.

11 Q. However, would you please look at the

12 statement you gave in 1996? Is it still with you? And

13 would you please look at page 7, paragraph 4 in the

14 B/C/S, and it's 6 in the English version. Page 7,

15 paragraph 3 and 4, actually, in your language.

16 In paragraph 3, you speak about the pattern

17 of rape that occurred in Partizan Sports Hall, and in

18 paragraph 4 -- and in English it's 6 -- you speak about

19 Dragan Kunarac, Zaga, who was part of this pattern and

20 who came to Partizan; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On page 8, that is, the following page -- no,

23 in the B/C/S version, it's page 7, the last paragraph,

24 and in the English version, it's page 8, paragraph 4.

25 However, you describe that you were taken to the

Page 2391

1 tailor's house in Aladza and you were raped there,

2 isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In your statement from 1998, that is, the

5 other statement you gave to the Tribunal, would you

6 please look at page 3, and it is in your language and

7 also in the English language it's the paragraph 3 and

8 4. In these paragraphs, did you describe the rapes

9 that occurred in the tailor's house in more details?

10 A. Yes, because Kunarac had already been

11 arrested or he had arrived here. At the time, I was

12 asked to speak in greater detail about him, though I

13 didn't know enough. I had forgotten a lot.

14 Q. And will you now please have a look at the

15 last document you discussed with Defence counsel, Mrs.

16 Pilipovic; that is, the transcript of the interview you

17 gave to journalists. Would you please just have a look

18 at the English text and the B/C/S text, but the English

19 text is of more importance.

20 Do you see your signature anywhere on this

21 document? It's the Defence Exhibit 42. Do you see

22 your signature or were you ever shown this document by

23 the journalist?

24 A. As far as the signature is concerned, I don't

25 see it, though I'm a little nervous now. But what I

Page 2392

1 said, I abide by it. But journalists, like

2 journalists, tend to exaggerate a little, and I assume

3 this is exaggerated too.

4 Q. When you were interviewed by journalists, did

5 they ever afterwards show you a text or did they simply

6 make notes or tapes and you could not check it again,

7 so that you would not know what the journalist actually

8 has -- what notes he made for himself, or she?

9 A. I don't remember them giving me the statement

10 afterwards, but I wasn't interested. I know what

11 happened and I always told the truth. Whether they

12 added anything, I don't care.

13 Q. So you would not know what notes journalists

14 did, and if there is something which is not correct,

15 you would not know?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I again have to refer back to your first

18 statement you gave to the Tribunal in 1996, when you

19 described the rapes in more general terms. Did you

20 mention that you were raped by a lot of soldiers, some

21 of them known to you, others unknown to you?

22 A. As far as that is concerned, I hadn't known

23 them before the war, before I was taken into

24 detention. The only thing is that some of the people

25 who were there with me knew them and mentioned their

Page 2393

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Page 2394

1 names. But I do not remember those names now.

2 Q. But when you saw the accused Zoran Vukovic in

3 this courtroom, did you merely recognise him here as

4 one of them who raped you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you gave testimony yesterday, and

7 especially when Mrs. Pilipovic asked you about the

8 first rape in the high school, you referred to your jaw

9 and you mentioned a clicking sound that results, in a

10 way, from these rapes. What did you mean? Do you have

11 any problems with your jaw, or what were you referring

12 to?

13 A. When Tuta slapped me, it hurt me very much.

14 And since then, I have had these problems all the time.

15 Q. You mean that your jaw clicks when you speak,

16 or what problem?

17 A. Yes, yes, and it hurts me.

18 Q. When you gave your testimony yesterday, and

19 especially in the afternoon, I noticed that you had the

20 impression on your face that you were in pain. Is that

21 the wrong impression I got or were you in pain, and if

22 so, why?

23 A. It's painful to talk about.

24 Q. So it was not something physical?

25 A. Do you mean my jaw or generally, this trial?

Page 2395

1 Q. I meant if you have any physical pain at that

2 moment, from whatever source, or was it just the mental

3 stress that gave the impression you were in pain?

4 A. Both.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Yes.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

9 I do apologise. I have no questions, but I would just

10 like to clear up a point.

11 My learned friend was saying that she was

12 having an interview with the journalist, but this

13 document is a transcript of her statement before the

14 cameras.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Which do you mean?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] So it wasn't

17 a journalist taking notes. This is the Document D42,

18 Defence Exhibit D42, and the witness agreed with me

19 that it was a statement made for the cameras.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I do not

21 think that this is, but I would have to check. My

22 opinion was and my knowledge is that this is the notes

23 a reporter made. There was a tape that was made, but

24 at the same time he made notes. And it's not a

25 transcript because -- it's not a transcript of a

Page 2396

1 running interview, because it sounds to me that it's

2 always like in the third person. So therefore it's

3 notes to an interview on a tape. So that is what I

4 meant. It's not actually the word-by-word statement of

5 the witness, it's notes.

6 JUDGE HUNT: It could be somebody's notes,

7 having seen the transcript; I don't know. But it's

8 certainly all in the third person. It does not purport

9 to be a transcript of the actual words used.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is also what my

11 knowledge is.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,

13 for giving evidence. You are free now to go.

14 Yes, Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The Registry

16 would like to know what to do with D42 as an exhibit,

17 because it is marked for identification only for the

18 time being. Is it going to be admitted? On the other

19 hand, the document shown by Mr. Jovanovic, shown the

20 witness, about that one I would like to know whether

21 Mr. Jovanovic wants to tender that into evidence.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. On D42, do you wish it

23 tendered into evidence? You see, what you must

24 understand that the process is, at the moment a

25 document is shown to the witness, it has to be marked

Page 2397

1 for identification only. Now, if you want it to be

2 part of the evidence, then you ask for it to be

3 admitted into evidence. So there are two stages with

4 documents.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

6 Honour, thank you. You have already told us that

7 once. The Defence would like to tender this interview,

8 if I can call it that, or transcript of a conversation

9 with the witness as a Defence exhibit.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, any

11 objection?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objections, Your

13 Honours.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number

15 formally, Madam Registrar?

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document

17 will be marked D42 as a Defence exhibit and will be

18 tendered under seal.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

21 I don't wish, nor is there any need, for that document

22 to be tendered into evidence. It was only meant for

23 identification purposes.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have five minutes to

25 go. Yes, Madam Prosecutor.

Page 2398

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the next

2 witness, we need to arrange some technical problems due

3 to the voice and image alteration. Therefore, my

4 suggestion would be to have the break now.

5 And in addition, so that we do not have to

6 deal with that when we start with the next witness, the

7 witness was granted to testify while being shielded

8 from the accused. The Prosecution had discussed this

9 matter with the witness, and she does not need this

10 protection any longer. So it would be the normal

11 protection, voice and image alteration, and nothing

12 else.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I hope the Defence have

14 understood that. The protective measures for this

15 witness are varied. It's only voice and face

16 distortion. She will be in view of the accused

17 persons.

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No

19 objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar.

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] We are fully in

22 agreement, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We agree,

25 Your Honour.

Page 2399

1 JUDGE MUMBA: The motion is granted and the

2 protective measures are varied accordingly.

3 We now take our break. We'll resume at 1130

4 hours. We are giving extra minutes for the protective

5 measures to be varied.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please

11 make the solemn declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

13 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

14 and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS 132

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Before I start, with the

19 help of the usher, would you please give this to the

20 witness, and would this please be marked as the

21 Prosecution Exhibit 201. It should be in front of

22 everybody. It's a list with the names.

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is

24 Prosecution Exhibit 201, and it is being admitted under

25 seal.

Page 2400

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

2 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

3 Q. Good morning, Witness.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. We have to avoid to say names, and therefore

6 you have now this list in front of you. The name next

7 to the number 132, is that your name?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the date next to the number, is that your

10 birthday?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where were you born?

13 A. I was born in Foca.

14 Q. In a particular neighbourhood in Foca?

15 A. No. In the Foca hospital.

16 Q. And what is your ethnicity?

17 A. I'm a Muslim.

18 Q. Where did you live in Foca before the war?

19 A. I lived at Rataja, which is a village in the

20 surroundings of Foca.

21 Q. What is the next neighbourhood, the bigger

22 neighbourhood to Rataja?

23 A. Miljevina. That's a local community which

24 belonged to the Foca municipality.

25 Q. Miljevina, before the war, was that a mixed

Page 2401

1 neighbourhood, that is, Serbs and Muslims living there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you say how many Serbs, the percentage of

4 Serbs and Muslims? Were any of them dominant? Was it

5 dominantly?

6 A. Well, in my free assessment, I think it was a

7 50/50 ratio, approximately.

8 Q. And your village, Rataja, what about this?

9 Was that also a mixed neighbourhood, and was there any

10 ethnicity that was a majority?

11 A. It was a mixed region, but I think it was

12 predominantly Serb.

13 Q. What did you do before the war?

14 A. Before the war, I went to the first form of

15 secondary school. I was a pupil.

16 Q. How old were you when the war started?

17 A. Fifteen.

18 Q. When did the war start?

19 A. I think the war in the Foca municipality

20 began at the beginning of April, about the 8th of

21 April, I think.

22 Q. And did you hear anything about the war? I

23 mean, did you hear shooting or shelling? Or did the

24 war even start in your area?

25 A. I think that there weren't any major armed

Page 2402

1 conflicts at that time in Miljevina and Rataja, but

2 from the neighbouring hills around Miljevina, you could

3 hear gunfire, and I think that the village of Putanj

4 where there was an open-cast mine at one time -- this

5 is my assessment and what I have come to realise was

6 that there must have been guns up there and that shells

7 were shot from there and the target was Foca.

8 Q. Were the Muslim villagers in your village,

9 that is, Miljevina and Rataja, were they armed at that

10 time and did they have units?

11 A. No. In that village -- the village was

12 inhabited by mostly elderly people and a few children,

13 and I don't think they were armed. That is to say,

14 they were not armed.

15 Q. And what about the Serb neighbours? Were

16 they armed and did they wear uniforms?

17 A. Yes. From that first day, when the blockade

18 was set up -- I don't know the definition, actually, of

19 that, but it would appear that the war began from that

20 day in April, so from April they were armed and

21 uniformed, mostly.

22 Q. You speak about the blockade. Where was this

23 blockade and who has erected it?

24 A. The Serbian population of Miljevina, because

25 suddenly -- I didn't see that. It was those who

Page 2403

1 tried -- because the Muslim population didn't know what

2 was going on, so many went out to get bread, because

3 there were many of the locals who sold milk and milk

4 produces, and they would supply people with these

5 produces of theirs. And they saw what was called these

6 hedgehogs on the road. They were called hedgehogs.

7 And, for example, my brother saw them on his way to

8 school.

9 Q. And where were -- do you know where this

10 blockade was?

11 A. I can't remember. I think it was by the

12 petrol pump at Miljevina, somewhere there.

13 Q. And did you continue to go to school to Foca?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Why not?

16 A. Well, because before that you used public

17 transport and the bus going to Foca, but I don't think

18 the bus ran anymore towards Foca, it didn't go towards

19 Foca.

20 Q. In April and the following months, you and

21 your family, were you bothered in any way by soldiers?

22 A. Yes. I don't know exactly whether that was

23 at the very beginning of April, but in the months to

24 come in 1992, we were bothered. That is to say, the

25 Serbian soldiers and the units who were in the region

Page 2404

1 would try to check -- that is to say, they wanted to

2 see if we were armed.

3 Q. And did soldiers come to your house?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did these soldiers look like? What kind

6 of uniforms did they have?

7 A. I think there was a minority who wore the

8 uniform of the former Yugoslav People's Army, but there

9 were other soldiers who wore camouflage uniforms.

10 Q. Did you see any special insignia?

11 A. Yes. I think that most of those people who

12 came at the time had -- I don't know whether on their

13 left or right arm, but they had a tricolour insignia

14 like a sort of national Serbian insignia, and I think

15 they had in that emblem that it said "Gingilo Guard".

16 Q. Did that mean anything to you or did you

17 later learn what "Gingilo Guard" was?

18 A. Yes. The people who came at that time, of

19 course after everything I have seen, they were actually

20 people who were subordinate to Pero Elez, and I think

21 that Pero Elez had this nickname, Gingilo, that his

22 nickname was Vojvoda Gingilo.

23 Q. Did you know Pero Elez before the war?

24 A. No.

25 Q. When did you learn his name, and when did you

Page 2405

1 meet him first?

2 A. I learned his name in August, I believe. And

3 when he came -- that is to say, when they took my

4 father and neighbours prisoner, they took me off too

5 that day, and I think that it was on that day that I

6 learned his name. I think he even introduced himself

7 as being who he was.

8 Q. How big was the group of soldiers who

9 belonged to this Pero Elez?

10 A. Well, once again this is my free assessment,

11 but I think there were about 20 or 30 people in all.

12 Q. Were they armed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have already mentioned August, but the

15 time between April and August, did you ever leave the

16 house, or Miljevina, or Rataja?

17 A. Yes. I had two younger brothers, and the

18 three of us, with some of our relatives, went to a

19 village which was located between Miljevina and

20 Sarajevo, and we were there for three or four days.

21 And as my parents stayed, we returned because of them,

22 because we didn't want to go any further without them.

23 Q. And when you returned to your parents' house,

24 did you stay in the house?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2406

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Page 2407

1 Q. What about your father; did he move around in

2 the village?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Why not?

5 A. Because these were the recommendations made

6 by some Serb neighbours. We were told by them that it

7 was better that way. They said that people from other

8 parts, Montenegrins, from Serbia, and people came into

9 those parts, so to avoid any incidents, it would be

10 safer for him to stay at home.

11 Q. And what about you yourself?

12 A. For me too, that was true for me too.

13 Q. Why was it dangerous for you to go out, while

14 let's say your mother, could she go out?

15 A. Yes, because we had some cattle, some

16 livestock, so they didn't prevent my mother from going

17 to tend to the livestock. But I didn't dare -- I

18 wasn't allowed to go. Why not? I'll never actually

19 understand that.

20 Q. On that first occasion that you think you met

21 Pero Elez, do you know when that was exactly?

22 A. I can't give you an exact date, but quite

23 certainly it is one of these two. It is either the

24 18th or 19th of August, 1992.

25 Q. And why do you remember this date so well?

Page 2408

1 A. Well, because it was, I think, the first of a

2 series of terrible dates for my life.

3 Q. What happened on that day?

4 A. Well, on that day these people, the soldiers

5 I mentioned earlier on, came. They searched our house,

6 took my father away and took me away.

7 Q. Do you recall how many soldiers came to your

8 house, and did you recognise any of them?

9 A. They were very difficult moments for me, and

10 I was terribly afraid for -- in order to be able to

11 recognise anybody. But I think that five or six

12 soldiers entered the house. But otherwise in the

13 village, I think there were about 30 of them.

14 Q. Did anything happen in the house on that day?

15 A. In the house. Well, as I said, nothing,

16 except that they took my father and me away.

17 Q. Did they beat your father?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When did this happen, and were you present?

20 A. They came on that occasion, and me and my

21 mother and two brothers were in the basement of the

22 house. But they took my father up on the floor above,

23 and from that floor we could hear him moaning and

24 screaming. And afterwards, when we were together

25 again, he told us that they had tied him up and beaten

Page 2409

1 him with an electric cable, extension cable as we call

2 it.

3 Q. Why did the soldiers come to your house and

4 why did they mistreat your father this way? Did they

5 say anything?

6 A. Well, once again, I can't remember because it

7 was a long time ago and it is difficult for me to

8 remember all the details. But I do know -- that is to

9 say, I don't know whether they said that, but I think

10 it was them who said this, that a truck which was going

11 to a hill somewhere should have brought some -- was to

12 bring some hay with some Serbian -- whether civilians

13 or soldiers, I don't know, but I think that one of them

14 among them did go to the front. And on that occasion,

15 they were injured because the truck went off the road.

16 And they said that the truck had gone off the road

17 because there was an explosive device or a mine, and

18 they accused my father and our other Muslim neighbours

19 of having done that.

20 Q. You said that your father was taken away.

21 Where was he taken; do you know that?

22 A. Well, after everything, I do know now that he

23 was taken to Miljevina, to the police station there.

24 Q. Did he stay there for some time?

25 A. Yes. He stayed there for 15 days.

Page 2410

1 Q. And what became of him afterwards? Where was

2 he taken then?

3 A. After that, they took him away to the

4 correction centre in Foca.

5 Q. How long did he stay there?

6 A. He stayed there -- if that was August, that

7 would make it -- he stayed there from the beginning of

8 September to the 19th of January. It was January, at

9 any rate, January 1993.

10 Q. When did you see him again?

11 A. I saw him again -- it was April, but I've

12 mixed up all the years. It was in 1995. Yes, 1995.

13 Q. What happened to you on that day in August?

14 A. On that day they took me off to a house and I

15 stayed there for a time.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

17 usher, I would like to show the witness two photos.

18 The first photo is Exhibit 11, photo number 7355.

19 Q. Would you please look on this photo and tell

20 us what you see.

21 A. I see a building, or house, which is very

22 well known to me. The photograph has taken from the

23 road. That is the entrance gate and the entrance to

24 the house, which was the property of Nusret Karaman.

25 And I think it has now come to be known as Karaman's

Page 2411

1 House.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would the usher now show

3 the photo Exhibit 11, photo 7358.

4 Q. What do you see on this photo?

5 A. I see the same house, but the photograph has

6 been taken from the other side, from a different

7 aspect, angle.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you. It can

9 be taken away, the photo.

10 Q. Did you know this house from before the war?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you know the Karaman family?

13 A. Not the elderly members, but I did know the

14 two younger daughters, yes.

15 Q. How were you taken to this house, and why?

16 A. Of course, I could not seek for an

17 explanation, nor did I do so, and I don't know, but

18 they took me -- I was taken by Pero Elez -- no.

19 Predrag Trifkovic, Pedo, Zoran Samardzic and Nedjo

20 Samardzic; they took me.

21 Q. Did you know these people from before the

22 war?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How, then, did you learn their names?

25 A. Well, quite simply, they would not refer to

Page 2412

1 each other in any way by nickname or code or anything,

2 but as I was there for some time, I think some of them

3 even introduced themselves and gave their full name and

4 surname.

5 Q. When you first were taken to this house, how

6 long did you stay in there?

7 A. Several hours.

8 Q. During this several hours, were you

9 mistreated in any way?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Where were you taken then?

12 A. After that they took me to the police station

13 at Miljevina.

14 Q. When you say "they," do you mean these three

15 soldiers you just mentioned?

16 A. No. I think there was -- Pero Elez was

17 there, quite certainly, but who was with him -- let me

18 repeat: Eight years is a very long period for a

19 witness to be able to remember all the details, and

20 especially as in my particular case there were a lot of

21 people who were mentioned. A lot of people crop up, so

22 my memory -- but I'm quite sure that Pero Elez was one

23 of them, but I'm not certain of the others, so I don't

24 want to say anything that I'm not certain of.

25 Q. When you were at the police station, what

Page 2413

1 happened there?

2 A. At the police station, the sort of

3 investigator there was my teacher, Risto Trifkovic, and

4 he questioned me. He asked me about a black box, some

5 kind of black box that I'd never heard of. And I have

6 never discovered to this day what that was.

7 Q. Did you know anything about a black box,

8 whatever that is?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How long did the questioning last?

11 A. Not very long. An hour, perhaps.

12 Q. Were you abused in any way during this

13 questioning?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you taken home afterwards?

16 A. No. That is to say, not at first, not right

17 away. I was returned to Karaman's House.

18 Q. Why were you returned to Karaman's House and

19 not taken home?

20 A. Because they told me that I know what that

21 black box is and that I didn't want to own up to that.

22 Q. To be taken to Karaman's House, then, was

23 that kind of a punishment or was it a threat to you?

24 A. I understood that to be a threat.

25 Q. Why? Did you know anything about this house

Page 2414

1 at that time already?

2 A. No, but quite simply, to take me away from my

3 family, that was punishment enough for me.

4 Q. How long did you stay at Karaman's House when

5 you were returned there on that day?

6 A. I stayed the next day, to the afternoon of

7 the following day.

8 Q. Who was present in the house at that time?

9 A. In the house there were seven girls. Do you

10 want me to give you their names?

11 Q. Not the names, but would you please have a

12 look at the list and give us either their initials or

13 the number.

14 A. Yes. Very well. That's what I meant,

15 actually. So DB was there, FWS-87, FWS-75, AS, AB, JB,

16 80, and JB [sic]. No. No. I misspoke. 80 was not in

17 the house. So seven girls. Let me repeat: DB,

18 FWS-87, 75, AS, AB, JG, and JB.

19 Q. Yes. Thank you. And these girls, did they

20 speak to you?

21 A. A couple of words only. They told me their

22 names, but not more than that at that first encounter.

23 Q. And did they tell you where they come from

24 and how they got to the house?

25 A. Most of them did.

Page 2415

1 Q. And where did they come from? Do you recall

2 that?

3 A. Probably I will not remember for all of

4 them. I know that JG was born and lived in Gacko, that

5 they were captured as they were fleeing, that they were

6 in Kalinovik and that they had brought her from

7 Kalinovik. Also, I know that DB, FWS-87, and FWS-75

8 were born -- actually, I don't know where they were

9 born, but they lived in a village called Mjesaja and

10 they were also captured somewhere in the woods. And I

11 think that they were kept in the Partizan Sports Hall

12 and then from there they went to various other places.

13 Q. Did you know any of these girls from before

14 the war?

15 A. Yes. I knew AS and AB, because they also

16 lived in Miljevina.

17 Q. Were there soldiers at the house at that day

18 or night?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. One, or two, or more soldiers; how many?

21 A. Several soldiers. They would come and go

22 quite frequently. How many there were, I really don't

23 know, because they kept changing. One group would

24 come, another would go, so I wouldn't take the liberty

25 to make an estimate.

Page 2416

1 Q. Did you know any of them or did you learn

2 their names later on that were there on that same day?

3 I don't mean that entire time, but just that same day

4 in August.

5 A. Yes. I personally knew one soldier who also

6 lived in Miljevina. His name is Radovan Stankovic.

7 And also that day I think I learned quite a number of

8 names. There was, for instance, Nedjo Samardzic, Zoran

9 Samardzic.

10 Q. On that day, what did the soldiers do?

11 A. They had come back from a successful

12 operation where they had captured old people and

13 children. I'm talking about Rataja again.

14 Q. Did they themselves speak about that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How, then, do you know?

17 A. Because satisfaction could be seen, because

18 it was a kind of celebration, and they had just come

19 from that village.

20 Q. What did the girls do at that day?

21 A. They were engaged in normal housework,

22 satisfying their requests. If they wanted to drink,

23 they would bring them drinks. If they wanted to have a

24 cup of coffee, they would prepare the coffee and serve

25 it to the soldiers.

Page 2417

1 Q. Were you abused on that night?

2 A. No.

3 Q. On that occasion, the other girls or women,

4 did they mention that they were abused, or did that

5 actually happen on that night that you saw it?

6 A. I didn't see it, but they did tell me, and

7 they told me that by the time I had got there, they had

8 already experienced very many horrors, mistreatment,

9 humiliations and so on.

10 Q. Do you recall who told you that, who of the

11 girls?

12 A. No, but I think that all of them shared the

13 same opinion and they all said. Of course, these are

14 not stories that are identical in terms of detail, but

15 they all had something in common.

16 Q. What impression did these girls and women

17 make on you on that day as to in what state they were?

18 A. I think that all of them, like me, were

19 terrified. And the worst part was that they were all

20 separated from their families, and most of them didn't

21 know where their parents were and the other members of

22 their immediate family.

23 Q. You said that you stayed there only one

24 night. Where were you taken the next day?

25 A. The next day, Nedjo Samardzic took me back to

Page 2418

1 my home and my mother.

2 Q. When you came home, had anything happened to

3 your family or your family's house?

4 A. The family, no, but they didn't spend that

5 night in the house. They were too afraid. But the

6 house was burgled. They had taken away some technical

7 appliances.

8 Q. How long did you stay in your house?

9 A. In my house, I stayed -- that was either the

10 19th or the 20th of August when I was brought back, and

11 I stayed until the beginning of September. But I do

12 not remember the exact date.

13 Q. Why did you leave the house?

14 A. I didn't leave the house. I was taken out of

15 the house.

16 Q. Who took you out of the house?

17 A. Predrag Trifkovic, Pedo, and Zoran

18 Samardzic. And I have to mention that I am not quite

19 sure whether both Samardzic brothers were there or only

20 one of them, but I am sure that Pedo Trifkovic was one

21 of them.

22 Q. And do you recall when that was, the date?

23 A. No, not the date.

24 Q. Was it in -- what month was it in, and at the

25 beginning or the end of the month?

Page 2419

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Page 2420

1 A. It was at the beginning of the month, and the

2 month was September.

3 Q. '92?

4 A. Yes, of course.

5 Q. Did anything happen before you were taken

6 away that caused unrest?

7 A. Yes. From that village or, rather, from

8 Rataja, 13 men, young men, had been killed of Serb

9 ethnicity. I think I will be right in saying Serb

10 soldiers.

11 Q. And how do you know that?

12 A. Because I saw the sorrow. These were

13 neighbours, houses that were very close to ours, and

14 one could hear the crying. We saw the funeral of those

15 soldiers when they were being buried.

16 Q. And when these soldiers who took you out came

17 to your house, what did they say?

18 A. They said that those neighbours, Serbs, were

19 of course naturally deeply hurt, that they were very

20 indignant, and that they feared that they could provoke

21 an incident, and that it would be safer for me to go

22 with them and they would put me up somewhere. Of

23 course, I didn't know where.

24 Q. Why did they then not take the entire family

25 away; why only you? Did they explain that?

Page 2421

1 A. No.

2 Q. Where were you taken?

3 A. They took me again to Karaman's House.

4 Q. How long did you stay this time?

5 A. I stayed there, let me see, from the

6 beginning of September until the 21st of March, 1993.

7 Q. What happened to your family when you were

8 taken away; what happened to your mother and your

9 family?

10 A. Of course, this was information that reached

11 me much later when I was at liberty, when I finally

12 rejoined my mother. They stayed on sometime until the

13 month of October in their own house. Actually, when

14 they took me, I wasn't in my house. We were staying in

15 a relative's house, where they had moved us to to put

16 up a Serb family in our house. And from this

17 relative's house, they deported them to the Partizan

18 Sports Hall, my mother, my two brothers, and my

19 father's mother, that is, my grandmother.

20 Q. When you came to Karaman's House this time,

21 who was staying there? Would you please name the

22 soldiers first?

23 A. The names of the soldiers? Again, there were

24 people passing through, members of the Guards, and the

25 soldiers who would stay on and spend the night there

Page 2422

1 were Nikola Brcic and Radovan Stankovic.

2 Q. You mentioned the Guards. Is that the Pero

3 Elez group that you referred to before?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And how many girls were in the house at that

6 time, and will you please look at the sheet, who?

7 A. Yes. Again, the same girls were there that I

8 had seen the first time, which means DB, FWS 87,

9 FWS 75, AS, AB, JG and JB.

10 Q. Who was the youngest, and how old was she?

11 A. The youngest was AB, and she said that she

12 was 12, that she was 12 then.

13 Q. What about the others; do you happen to know

14 their ages?

15 A. I don't know now with precision, but they

16 were all very young and they were all unmarried. And I

17 think the oldest was about 26 or 27.

18 Q. And were they all Muslims?

19 A. Yes, only I think that JB was from a mixed

20 marriage. Her mother was either a Serb or a Croat; I'm

21 not sure. But her father was a Muslim.

22 Q. What happened to you while you were in

23 Karaman's House?

24 A. Rape happened, humiliation, mistreatment.

25 Q. When you say "rape", what exactly do you

Page 2423

1 mean?

2 A. In the Yugoslav language in those days, which

3 is now Bosnian, there is a word, "silo", which means

4 power, strength. To me, that very word, "silovanje",

5 because I was a child of 15. So they used force,

6 power, strength to bring me there, and that means

7 everything. Everything I went through, as well as the

8 other girls, occurred not through my will or my

9 acquiescence but by the use of force, power and

10 strength.

11 Q. But for what did they use the power and

12 strength and force, for what?

13 A. To bring us there and to do everything they

14 did.

15 Q. Does that mean to put their penises into your

16 mouth, or vagina, or anus?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How often did that happen? Was it a daily

19 occurrence?

20 A. For me, no. Of course, all of us who were

21 there didn't -- were not given the same treatment. The

22 intensity of the forcible behaviour towards us varied.

23 Q. How often were you raped?

24 A. These are things that I have always wanted to

25 forget. So not so frequently, but I can't tell you

Page 2424

1 with precision.

2 Q. Who raped you; do you remember anyone

3 specifically?

4 A. Yes. The first to do it was Pero Elez, Nedjo

5 Samardzic, also a man who came and said he was Captain

6 Dragan, that he was a Montenegrin, Zoran Samardzic.

7 Now I simply -- I could not name any others.

8 Q. How did this make you feel while you were in

9 Karaman's House?

10 A. Awful, dreadful, helpless. But at the same

11 time I felt dignified and proud.

12 Q. Of what?

13 A. I didn't understand the question.

14 Q. You said at the same time you felt dignified

15 and proud, and what do you mean? What made you feel

16 this way?

17 A. Yes. We girls, children, were hopeless.

18 They were men under arms and they used force. But

19 simply I did not want to be subdued. They would often

20 describe us as slaves, but I wouldn't accept that,

21 though I couldn't say it often. But intimately I would

22 refuse to accept it, though it was the truth.

23 Q. You said that the other girls, that the

24 amount of rapes they suffered varied. Who was raped

25 the most?

Page 2425

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Were all of them raped, and did they all

3 experience the same that you did?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you ever experience a gang-rape while you

6 were in the house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe this?

9 A. One night, since the above-mentioned Radovan

10 Stankovic and Nikola Brcic, who were in that house,

11 they had the right to open the door and let in all

12 those who wanted to enjoy themselves with the Bosniak

13 girls. And then someone I didn't know, they said, as

14 we often slept in the same room -- they brought them,

15 three or four men, so we were exposed to this

16 gang-rape.

17 Q. While you were at the house, were you beaten?

18 A. There weren't any -- there wasn't any major

19 physical abuse except for slapping and things like

20 that, but nothing more substantial.

21 Q. Were you threatened?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was used as a threat?

24 A. A big knife, which they called the kama, and

25 firearms: a pistol, a rifle.

Page 2426

1 Q. Were the other girls also slapped and

2 threatened occasionally?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When this happened, was there any reason?

5 Did you provoke this to happen, or why did the soldiers

6 do that?

7 A. No. I think that this usually happened

8 because these people were -- let me use the term not

9 alcoholics, but people who liked to drink, who liked to

10 have a drink, and through the effects of that, we were

11 most frequently abused and beaten.

12 Q. Those soldiers who came to the house, were

13 they -- did they all belong to Pero Elez's group of

14 soldiers or were there also others?

15 A. No, they didn't all belong to him. There

16 were others as well.

17 Q. Where did the others come from?

18 A. As I mentioned a moment ago, that man who

19 introduced himself as Captain Dragan, he said he was a

20 Montenegrin, and people would come also who were from

21 Foca.

22 Q. Do you happen to know any names or any

23 nicknames of soldiers who came from Foca?

24 A. Once again, I have to say that I did not know

25 any of people who came from Foca, but the girls who

Page 2427

1 were already in that house, they had already gone

2 through that terrible Partizan Sports Hall, infamous

3 sports hall, and from their stories I learnt that when

4 they had gone, they said that that night a man came --

5 I think his name was Dragan Zelenovic, Zelja -- and

6 that another man who used to come by was Gojko

7 Jankovic. And I know that on several occasions, in

8 passing, a man called Dragoljub Kunarac, Zaga. I also

9 know a man who -- I don't think I'll be able to

10 remember his name -- Gagovic, Gaga. These were all

11 people who probably had the same attitude towards

12 Bosnian women and girls and Bosnian children.

13 Q. You mentioned Zaga. Can you describe this

14 Zaga?

15 A. Another thing which I have to repeat, keep

16 repeating, is, first of all, that it was a very long

17 time ago -- eight years is the period -- and I was a

18 child at the time. Now I am a serious woman. And

19 those people were, let me say, middle-aged. Of course,

20 people change in the course of eight years. But there

21 is a high degree of fear and trepidation that was

22 present. But the man whom I saw then and who I think

23 was Zaga was tall, well built. He had a bony face,

24 with high cheekbones, prominent cheekbones. The colour

25 of his hair and eyes, I just cannot remember.

Page 2428

1 Q. How did you learn his nickname or his name?

2 Did he introduce himself or did you hear others?

3 A. He did not introduce himself, and I think

4 I've already said this. I heard it from the girls who

5 had already experienced that infamous Partizan Sports

6 Hall.

7 Q. How often did you see him in Karaman's House?

8 A. During my stay there, a couple of times, I

9 think.

10 Q. And what did he do in the house?

11 A. In a house in which there was a Bosnian

12 family for a long time, Alija Hrbinic, and there they

13 had a place where they kept livestock and brought in

14 cattle. And I think that several times he came

15 there -- from Karaman's House, he would go down there

16 to that cattle shed and would take some cattle for

17 their needs. And also -- I think this was the last

18 time that I saw that particular man -- that this was

19 when a group of girls were taken away from the house.

20 Q. Did you see this Zaga discuss with Pero Elez

21 or did you see them together?

22 A. Yes. And on that particular day, there were

23 a lot of those people we knew and many people we didn't

24 know, who talked to Pero Elez. Amongst them was -- and

25 this is my assumption once again -- was that man Zaga.

Page 2429

1 Q. Did Pero Elez ever mention Zaga to you and

2 what kind of a soldier he was?

3 A. No, not up until that day when they took the

4 girls away somewhere; I didn't know where.

5 Q. What did Pero Elez tell you about Zaga?

6 A. As I was sitting on the terrace, I was not

7 only afraid; I was beside myself, at the very edge.

8 And he said that I should be grateful to him for not

9 having allowed me to be taken off with Zaga. And he

10 said that I did not know what pain and suffering was

11 until I had experienced what those men in Foca did to

12 those girls, so that I had in some way remained

13 protected. That's what he wanted to say.

14 Q. Did you ever see a female soldier in the

15 house?

16 A. I don't know whether she was a soldier, but I

17 think she personally, or the people who came with her,

18 introduced her as a journalist, and her name was

19 Gordana Draskovic.

20 Q. When did she come to the house and what did

21 she do there?

22 A. I don't know when she came or what she

23 wanted.

24 Q. Was she present when you or any of the other

25 girls were abused?

Page 2430

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you see Zaga abuse any girl in the house?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Would you please have a look around in this

5 courtroom and can you tell us if the person you were

6 talking about is in this courtroom?

7 A. I think the first man.

8 Q. When you count starting on the left-hand

9 door, which person is it?

10 A. Yes. The first.

11 Q. The first without uniform, you mean?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the

14 witness has indicated the accused, Dragoljub Kunarac.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17 Q. Speaking about Karaman's House, were you

18 locked in this house?

19 A. Yes, we were locked, but what I would like to

20 stress was that we had the key, and we would close the

21 door from the inside.

22 Q. Did you stay in the house voluntarily?

23 A. I think it was enough when I said what I

24 imply by the word "sila," which means that we were not

25 there of our own free will.

Page 2431

1 Q. But you said you had a key. Why didn't you

2 then flee and run away from the house? Did you have a

3 choice?

4 A. I think -- I don't think we had a choice, no,

5 because, quite simply, it was absurd to go anywhere,

6 because what I wish to emphasise again was that we were

7 all very young and everywhere we would move around we

8 were taken by car, vehicles, either public transport or

9 other vehicles, so that it was absolutely absurd to go

10 anywhere. And everything was a long distance away and

11 the Muslim positions were far off. So we had no

12 choice. We couldn't go anywhere or reach any point,

13 because all around us was the Serbian population and

14 Serb soldiers.

15 Q. You said that you were taken away on the 21st

16 of March. What about the other girls? Did they all

17 stay as long as you did?

18 A. No. A group -- we have already said that a

19 group of girls was taken away in an unknown direction,

20 and in that house the ones that stayed after those had

21 been taken off was JB and FWS 132. And after they were

22 taken off, a girl was brought to the house, and she was

23 AT, whereas DB was taken away by Radovan Stankovic

24 without any explanation given to us. So for us, she

25 went off in some unknown direction.

Page 2432

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14 the French and English transcripts.

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16

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21

22

23

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25

 

Page 2433

1 Q. DB, when was she taken away? Was she taken

2 away before the other girls?

3 A. No. She was taken away afterwards, after the

4 other girls.

5 Q. And do you know when that was about, at least

6 the season of the year?

7 A. Yes. It was autumn.

8 Q. Did she leave voluntarily, together with

9 Stankovic?

10 A. I don't think so, no, just like I consider --

11 no.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to refer to

13 one of your previous statements you have given. I

14 would like to enter another document into evidence

15 which is not part of the exhibits binder, but it was

16 given in advance to Defence counsel. It would then be

17 Prosecution Exhibit 202, and it's a statement of the

18 witness given to the Bosnian police.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the date?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The date of the document

21 is 27th March 1993, although in the translation there

22 is a mistake. It says, in the translation, "7 March

23 1993." That's a mistake. It's obviously, from the

24 B/C/S, that it's the 27th of March.

25 Would the usher please give this document to

Page 2434

1 the witness. And also I think it has been distributed

2 already to the registrar, and I would like to enter

3 this into evidence.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection to the motion by

5 the Prosecution to have it entered into evidence?

6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No

7 objections, Your Honour. We have already received

8 those statements.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar.

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No objections,

11 Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a formal number of

16 the exhibit, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is

18 Document 202 of the Prosecution, and it is entered

19 under seal.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, would you please have a look at the

23 version of this document in your language, and do you

24 see your signature on the document?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2435

1 Q. Do you recall that you once gave a statement,

2 after your release, to the Bosnian authorities?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In this, I will read a part of this document

5 to you. In the English version of this document --

6 it's not numbered, sorry. On page 7 of the English

7 version, it says: "I also know that DB fell in love

8 with Radovan Stankovic, and he transferred D to

9 Montenegro." There is a mentioning of "love" in this

10 previous statement. Did you give this statement, and

11 what did it mean?

12 A. I think that either when I gave my statement

13 or the person who recorded that statement, that there

14 was a very big misunderstanding, because I always

15 thought -- and I always stand by it -- that none of us

16 could ever have thought of something like that, because

17 I think that DB, first of all, experienced a great loss

18 in her family and that everything happened before her

19 very eyes, that she witnessed everything. So I think

20 that this is absurd, anything like this is absurd,

21 although once again I don't remember but -- I think it

22 is a great mistake, and I don't think I could have said

23 that or even thought that.

24 Q. What was Dragan Stankovic's attitude to DB?

25 May he have fallen in love or felt something for her?

Page 2436

1 A. Let me correct you. It wasn't Dragan

2 Stankovic, it was Radovan Stankovic.

3 Q. Sorry, yes.

4 A. I don't know. But he did not allow the other

5 soldiers to have sexual intercourse with DB. Now, I

6 don't want to comment on that, but I think that this is

7 a sign that she was in some way protected. Whether you

8 can call that love or not, I don't know.

9 Q. You mentioned the other girls who were taken

10 away before DB. Who, who was taken away, and what were

11 the circumstances?

12 A. They couldn't change anything, so this was

13 under orders. And I think, as the most responsible

14 person in the house was Pero Elez, this occurred under

15 his orders, maybe perhaps in agreement with those

16 people who came. And I think that at the time they

17 were saying once the girls were taken away, then they

18 would bring others from Foca, like some sort of an

19 exchange. So those that were taken away were FWS 87,

20 FWS 75, AS and AB.

21 Q. Do you happen to know what became of them?

22 A. What do you mean? Do I know now or did I

23 know then, what happened to them?

24 Q. Did you learn anything about them while you

25 were in Karaman's House?

Page 2437

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you learn afterwards, after your release?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did you learn, and how did you learn it?

5 A. As we are all from one area, from one

6 municipality, so that more or less each one of us has a

7 member of the family in Sarajevo, and I think we went

8 through a very difficult period of our lives together.

9 I was interested, so enquiring around, I learned about

10 some of them. About others, I learned that when these

11 proceedings were instituted, because I see here some

12 names.

13 Q. Do you know what happened to the four girls

14 who you just mentioned? Where did they end up?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Who took them away, and when was that?

17 A. I don't know the exact date. People I didn't

18 know went as well as Pero Elez. He was a man whom they

19 addressed with a rank of the Yugoslav Army, and they

20 would address him with the surname "Kovac". I've

21 already mentioned that Zaga was there, then Jankovic,

22 Janko Jankovic, Tuta. I think that also present was --

23 I'm afraid I don't seem to be able to remember the

24 name. Everything is getting mixed up. I can't

25 recollect the name.

Page 2438

1 Q. However, the girls were taken away, and you

2 saw that?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. After also DB was taken away, who was left

5 behind in Karaman's House except for you?

6 A. JB stayed behind.

7 Q. And you also have mentioned already that a

8 third girl came then afterwards? You said that AT also

9 came to the house afterwards?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. These three of you, what happened to you?

12 A. After those four girls were taken away, DB

13 was, of course, taken away as well, so the three of us

14 stayed there for a while. AT joined us. I think that

15 by then -- I can't call it normal, but life had become

16 more peaceful. And among the soldiers in the house,

17 the only one that remained was Nikola Brcic. And we

18 continued living, waiting for some kind of a final

19 outcome.

20 Q. Did your family at a certain point find out

21 where you were?

22 A. My father -- perhaps not straight away, but

23 they did, yes. During the winter, they did; that is,

24 sometime in December, January. December '92, January

25 '93, they learned where I was.

Page 2439

1 Q. You've already mentioned that your father was

2 released in January '93. Was there also an attempt to

3 release you at the same time?

4 A. Yes. Those soldiers who came there told me

5 about that, and Nikola Brcic also told me, and he said

6 that my father -- he wanted to put my mind at ease. He

7 said, "Don't worry. He's left, and you should have

8 gone too." And again he mentioned somebody by the name

9 of Kovac. He often would say that this Kovac had a lot

10 of influence and that he didn't allow my departure;

11 that is, for me to be exchanged at the same time as my

12 father.

13 Q. I would like to refer you again to that

14 statement that you gave to the Bosnian authorities on

15 the 27th of March, 1993.

16 On page 7 of the English version, I will read

17 a sentence to you: "Someone called Mirko Kovac, also

18 known as Klanfa, did not allow it but rather asked that

19 I be taken for an exchange to Sarajevo."

20 You mentioned Milko Kovac. Is that the

21 person with influence you were talking about?

22 A. I don't know now whether that is the person,

23 because I didn't know that person.

24 Q. But in the sentence I just read to you, there

25 is also mentioned "also known as Klanfa." Do you know

Page 2440

1 any person with the name "Klanfa", and is that the

2 high-ranking soldier or high-ranking person who had

3 anything to do with exchange?

4 A. I personally didn't see him, but I know that

5 he was mentioned. And something that has remained

6 deeply embedded in my memory and my thoughts is the

7 surname "Kovac" and this nickname "Klanfa". Now,

8 whether that is the influential person, I really

9 couldn't say.

10 Q. Would you please describe your release to us

11 on the 21st of March, '93?

12 A. I reached freedom on the 24th of March,

13 1993. And on the 21st of March, we left that house in

14 Miljevina. A civilian car, a Golf, came to fetch us,

15 and a police car. I don't remember whether it belonged

16 to the Miljevina police station or not. But I know

17 that two other men were exchanged with us who had been

18 released from the KP Dom in Foca. They are Celik -- I

19 can't remember the first name. They are all rather

20 similar, so I may make a mistake. But what is

21 important is his surname "Celik", and my neighbour,

22 Sukrija Softic.

23 And JG, AT and I were exchanged. We set

24 off. As I can remember with certainty, that Pedo was

25 there, Predrag Trifkovic, Pedo, Zoran Samardzic, Tomo

Page 2441

1 Ostojic. Again, I don't know why we didn't go along

2 the road running through Miljevina, Dobro Polje,

3 Trnovo, to Sarajevo but rather along the road via

4 Montenegro, Celebici, Vajta, then through Montenegro,

5 and then turning back to the area of the town of

6 Rogatica. Then finally we reached Pale. From Pale, we

7 passed Lukavica, Vojkovici, and then the prison at

8 Kula, where we stayed until the actual exchange on the

9 24th.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

11 usher, I would like to put a document. It's another

12 exhibit which is not in the binder that you have, but

13 it should be in front of you. It was also given to

14 Defence in advance. It's Prosecution Exhibit 203.

15 It's both in English and in B/C/S.

16 Q. Witness, would you please look at the B/C/S

17 version of this document. Is it a report on an

18 exchange?

19 A. You mean my approval?

20 Q. No. I only ask you: When you look at the

21 document, it says "report on the exchange," and then we

22 have a date and then we have names. Is that a report

23 about your exchange and the exchange of the two other

24 girls and the other people you just mentioned?

25 A. Yes, it is certainly a report, and they are

Page 2442

1 the persons who were exchanged and they are the Muslims

2 who went for exchange together with me.

3 Q. And you were exchanged for whom? Who was

4 from the other side?

5 A. Of course, persons we didn't know, but after

6 our release, I knew that one person was a brother of

7 Tomo Ostojic's, and now I see that his name was

8 Nikola. I, of course, didn't know who he was or what

9 he was. But he addressed words of gratitude to us,

10 because it turned out that we owe each other our lives

11 and our freedom as we were being exchanged.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution would

13 like to enter this document into evidence.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to find out from

15 the Defence whether there is an objection.

16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No

17 objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No objection,

20 Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. May we have the

25 formal number?

Page 2443

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It was

2 admitted under seal, Prosecution Exhibit 202 [sic].

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

5 Q. Given the time you survived in Karaman's

6 House, what effect did that have on your physical and

7 mental health, if any?

8 A. As I have said, we were very young and were

9 hardly conscious of some things. And we Muslims,

10 Bosniaks, would like to thank dear God, dear Allah, for

11 surviving. We didn't have any physical consequences,

12 but I, as a member of an old Bosniak family, I think

13 that no major traces have been left on our mental

14 state, but the wounds and scars remain and I'm trying

15 to overcome them. And in spite of everything, I have

16 managed to remain proud and dignified; and proud, in

17 the first place, of my name, my belonging to that

18 ethnic group.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This was my last

20 question. I'm finished with this.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Since we have only

22 three minutes to lunch hour, we shall take our lunch

23 break now and cross-examination will start in the

24 afternoon at 1430 hours. We shall break off until 1430

25 hours.

Page 2444

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.57 p.m.

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Page 2445

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness. We

3 are continuing with -- will start cross-examination,

4 actually, this afternoon.

5 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

7 Your Honour.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

9 Q. Before I ask you any questions, I would like

10 to say good afternoon to the witness. Do you remember

11 how many statements you gave to the representatives of

12 the International Tribunal?

13 A. One.

14 Q. Do you remember when you gave that statement?

15 A. I think it was in the summer of 1995.

16 Q. Was it 1995, or 1996 perhaps? Take a look at

17 your statement. You have it in front of you. Not that

18 one; the other one.

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should

20 like to ask the usher to show the witness the statement

21 that she gave to the representatives of the Tribunal,

22 because we're going to ask her some questions with

23 respect to that statement.

24 Q. It is the statement that you gave to the

25 Security Services Centre of Sarajevo, if I'm correct.

Page 2446

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the date of the

3 statement?

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

5 the date is the 14th of June, 1996.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: We don't seem to have it. Yes,

7 the Prosecution, maybe you can assist.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: What we discussed with

9 the witness during the case in chief was her statement

10 given to the Bosnian authorities. The statement given

11 to the Tribunal has not yet been addressed, so you

12 would have to address it first. And it's part of the

13 binders, the binders, and I don't have now the binders

14 with me, but, it's --

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Exhibit 86.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's Prosecution Exhibit

17 86.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: It's numbered 86. It's not yet

19 been released, I mean been discussed, so you are the

20 first one to discuss this.

21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

22 Honour. I know that that statement has not been

23 introduced into evidence, but I wanted the witness to

24 be shown the statement so that the Defence could tender

25 it into evidence.

Page 2447

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Go ahead.

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Your Honour.

4 Q. In addition to these statements, did you give

5 any other statements to anyone?

6 A. You mean the representatives of the

7 International Tribunal?

8 Q. No, I didn't only mean them.

9 A. I don't think so. The media, you mean? No.

10 Q. Did you give a statement to the Security

11 Services Centre of Sarajevo several days after you gave

12 your first statement?

13 A. Once again you mean the Tribunal, do you?

14 Q. No, not the Tribunal, but the Security

15 Services Centre Sarajevo. The first you made on the

16 27th of March. That was the first statement. And the

17 second on the 1st of April; is that correct?

18 A. Well, I can't remember now. So the question

19 is whether I gave two statements in Sarajevo; is that

20 your question?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. I can't remember, I really can't.

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should

24 like to ask the usher once again for his assistance.

25 Could he hand some documents to the Trial Chamber and

Page 2448

1 the registrar and a copy to the witness?

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] To avoid any

3 confusion about the marking of documents, the statement

4 dated 14th of June, 1996, numbered -- or marked by the

5 Prosecutor under number 86, is now marked for

6 identification as Exhibit D43.

7 With regard to the witness statement dated

8 1st of April, 1993, it will be marked D44 for

9 identification purposes. These two documents are being

10 admitted under seal, or tendered under seal.

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We should

12 like to ask that the statement given on the 27th of

13 March, 1993 to the Security Services of Sarajevo be

14 introduced into evidence as a Defence Exhibit. You

15 received a copy of the statement a moment ago when the

16 distinguished colleague of the Prosecution asked her

17 question.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The witness

19 statement dated 27th of March, 1993 was marked 202, as

20 a Prosecution Exhibit.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it was produced.

22 JUDGE HUNT: It was produced, but is it in

23 evidence?

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I

25 continue, Your Honour?

Page 2449

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please, as long as each

2 time you want to refer your questions to a particular

3 statement, you please describe it sufficiently, giving

4 it the number.

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well,

6 Your Honour. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember giving those statements to

8 the Security Services of Sarajevo?

9 A. The first, yes, but the other one, I can't.

10 Q. You gave the statements in a brief period of

11 time. Why?

12 A. Because the Bosnian-Herzegovinian authorities

13 wanted to have them that way, probably to amass data on

14 the movement of the population.

15 Q. Can I conclude that it was at their

16 initiative, then?

17 A. Well, of course. Everything that took place

18 and everything I experienced was not something that I

19 instigated, or the statements that I gave, or the ones

20 I gave to this Tribunal. I didn't say myself, "I'm

21 going to make a statement," so all of those statements

22 were given in that light, whenever I was asked to do so

23 by anyone.

24 Q. Can you explain to us in which way you gave

25 the statements, the first and second? Did you dictate

Page 2450

1 it to a record keeper directly, did you write them out

2 in your own handwriting, or in another way?

3 A. I think it was all on the basis of a talk, a

4 discussion. That's how the statements were made, just

5 like the Court here is working. I gave answers to

6 questions asked me, which were then introduced into the

7 minutes or recorded.

8 Q. Did you hear the dictation of the statement

9 into the records?

10 A. Well, I can't remember that now. I don't

11 really know.

12 Q. Underneath your statements, we see your

13 signature; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did they ask you, when you gave your

16 statements, whether you wanted to have your statement

17 read back to you, what you stated?

18 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.

19 Q. When you gave your statements, were they --

20 did they ask you, the investigators, whether you wanted

21 your statements to be read back to you, or did you

22 listen to them being dictated into the record?

23 A. They asked me whether I wanted to read them

24 and whether I stand by that statement of mine.

25 Q. Did they read the statement out to you?

Page 2451

1 A. Well, quite simply, I don't remember. But at

2 any event, I think that I did read them before I

3 signed.

4 Q. Your signature means that you give

5 agreement -- that you agree that what is written in the

6 statement is what you actually said?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Why, then, did you not object to the portion

9 of the statement which speaks about Stankovic, Radovan

10 Stankovic, and the DB person about what you were asked

11 here today by the Prosecutor?

12 A. Well, quite simply, I don't know. Perhaps I

13 was -- well, a short space of time, it was all very

14 short, brief. Perhaps I was more interested in getting

15 away from that, rather than returning to all that

16 chaos.

17 Q. I understand you. But you went for a talk

18 only several days later. Why didn't you react then and

19 object to the statement that you had signed earlier on?

20 A. Because on the second occasion, I probably

21 didn't read that same statement out.

22 Q. Well, very well. Let's move forward.

23 Could you tell us, please, how the conflict

24 came about in Miljevina?

25 A. How the conflict came about. Well, first of

Page 2452

1 all, I can't say that an actual conflict did break

2 out. That is my vision of events. I think that the

3 Serbian people quite simply imposed its authority, its

4 law, in the region, because as far as I know and as far

5 as I'm aware, there was no struggle there, there was no

6 shooting, there was no kind of resistance on the part

7 of the Muslim population vis-a-vis those authorities

8 and that law.

9 Q. Could you tell us, before the conflict broke

10 out, what kind of relations did you have with your

11 neighbours?

12 A. Very good relations and very friendly

13 relations.

14 Q. Could you tell us, please, when these

15 relationships started to cool, were there any events

16 which took place which, in a way, contributed to the

17 fact that relations became cooler?

18 A. You mean -- in the settlement, in the village

19 where I lived, I don't think so up until that

20 particular moment, until there began to enter unknown

21 people, that is, began to search our houses. I think

22 that it was only at that point that we gained an

23 awareness -- the Bosniaks gained an awareness of what

24 was actually happening. In their own minds, they

25 gained this awareness.

Page 2453

1 Q. And in the territory of Foca, do you know if

2 there were any situations which led to this cooling of

3 relations? Were there any rallies of any kind?

4 A. Of course, that is common knowledge. Both

5 parties held rallies, the Democratic Action Party and

6 the SDS. But I should like to make it understood once

7 and for all that I was a child at the time. I was 15

8 years old.

9 Q. Yes, I'm quite well aware of that. In

10 Miljevina, was there a Muslim youth alliance which

11 rallied the youth?

12 A. I don't know that either because, as I say

13 quite simply, I didn't attend things like that, so I

14 didn't have time or any need to go to things like that,

15 nor was I interested in them.

16 Q. When the conflict came about, were there any

17 Serbs who assisted you and your family after the

18 outbreak of the conflict?

19 A. Well, not any special assistance, but there

20 were people who condemned it, who condemned what was

21 happening, and we considered that to be assistance.

22 So, yes, they did.

23 Q. Did this assistance happen at various times,

24 on several occasions?

25 A. Yes, of course.

Page 2454

1 Q. You described the situation today with

2 respect to the searches made of your home?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us whether there was an incident

5 or incidents prior to these house searches?

6 A. Well, I said that on one occasion the truck

7 had gone off the road, and the very beginnings,

8 actually. That is to say, there was no cause for it.

9 It was just because we were members of another group,

10 nation.

11 Q. Can you tell us something about that incident

12 in a little more detail, please?

13 A. You mean when the truck went off the road?

14 Q. Yes, because I understood you to say that the

15 houses were searched after that.

16 A. Yes, this was one instance when the houses

17 were searched. But once again, this was something I

18 didn't see from my own eyes, but from what people said,

19 that is to say, from what my neighbours said, it turned

20 out that when they were coming back along a macadamised

21 road service, the truck went off the road, and they

22 said they had, in fact, encountered a mine. But we

23 didn't hear an explosion, nor did we see an explosion

24 of any kind, so ...

25 Q. Do you know an incident when 42 Serbs were

Page 2455

1 killed in a vehicle?

2 A. Yes, and I said a moment ago we were terribly

3 sorry to see all the sorrow and the crying and the

4 sadness, because it was our neighbours who had fallen

5 victim.

6 Q. Do you know what they were victims of, fell

7 victim to?

8 A. No. Something exploded. Now, what exploded

9 and why, once again, I heard from my neighbours who had

10 lost their nearest and dearest, but again I didn't see

11 the actual event.

12 Q. You said today that the Muslims weren't

13 armed, and the Serbs did nonetheless die; they were

14 nonetheless killed. How do you explain that?

15 A. Well, I didn't talk about the Muslims in a

16 broader area; I was talking about the local inhabitants

17 of my own village.

18 Q. The incidents we mentioned, that is to say,

19 most of them, took place near Miljevina.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that's why I asked you for your

22 comments. How do you comment the fact that the

23 Muslims -- you say the Muslims weren't armed, whereas

24 the Serbs around Miljevina lost their lives?

25 A. Quite simply, I can't answer that question.

Page 2456

1 I state once again that I think it was once again not

2 at the very beginning, but seeing what was going on and

3 what was happening, that the people gained awareness of

4 the situation, and after that I think everything

5 happened in the summer months, after April. And we

6 know that the war began in the spring, which means that

7 they didn't just stand there and say, "Go on, kill me,"

8 but they started to set up a resistance themselves.

9 Q. Yes, that is quite clear to me, but where did

10 they get their weapons from?

11 A. Well, I don't know that.

12 Q. Do you know whether there was any BH army

13 stationed around Miljevina?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you remember when the first Serb refugees

16 came to Miljevina?

17 A. The Serb refugees in Miljevina? Well, I

18 think --

19 Q. Let me remind you, if I may.

20 A. Please go ahead, yes.

21 Q. In the statement you gave to the Security

22 Services of Sarajevo, the first statement, you said

23 that the Muslims were evicted from their homes and that

24 those homes were taken over by Serb refugees.

25 A. Yes. I'm going to ask you something now. In

Page 2457

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6

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14 the French and English transcripts.

15

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Page 2458

1 fact, can we define this more precisely? If somebody

2 lived some 15 minutes away from Miljevina and out of

3 fear withdrew into the interior, can he be termed a

4 refugee? Can you call him a refugee?

5 Q. But in your statement, your first

6 statement --

7 A. Yes. Very well. Yes.

8 Q. You say in your first statement -- and I can

9 show you the page. It is page 3. You say that the

10 first refugees arrived from Trnovo and Jabuka.

11 A. Well, I think that from Trnovo -- I don't

12 know, but I think there was fighting there and that

13 those people -- and I think that that was at the end of

14 April/beginning of May as well when these refugees

15 came, because there was fighting in the area between

16 Foca and Sarajevo, and Trnovo is on that road. That's

17 so, isn't it?

18 Q. Yes, yes. Does that mean that the Serbs had

19 to flee from their own homes?

20 A. Of course. Of course.

21 Q. When did you hear of Zaga for the first time?

22 A. Zaga. Well, when I came to Karaman's House,

23 after a certain amount of time went by, say two days.

24 Q. You said today that you went to the house on

25 two occasions.

Page 2459

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the last time was on the 18th or 19th of

3 September, if I remember correctly.

4 A. That was the first time. The second time I

5 came to the house at the beginning of September.

6 Q. Does that mean that in between those two

7 dates --

8 A. No. I think I heard all the stories about

9 Zaga -- and I said this -- that the girls I mentioned

10 had already gone from Kalinovik and the sports hall,

11 the Partizan Sports Hall, and they talked about it.

12 They knew this story.

13 Q. Could you give us a rough idea of when you

14 heard about him for the first time?

15 A. I thought it was that first time, which means

16 on the 18th or 19th of August that I first heard about

17 him.

18 Q. You said that you heard about it from the

19 girls in the house.

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Was there one particular girl who told you

22 about this? And don't mention names, please. If there

23 was, then give us her initials.

24 A. I really can't remember, but I think that

25 several of them talked about Zaga and that a number of

Page 2460

1 the girls mentioned him.

2 Q. What was said about him on that occasion?

3 A. Well, lots of terrible things, which sound

4 terrible to me even to this day: that he would take

5 people away, that he would divide them up, separate

6 them, that he brought his sort of army -- well, not his

7 army, but his people, and that they did what they liked

8 with the Bosniak women and girls.

9 Q. Did you know Zaga before the war?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did they then describe Zaga to you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. When you saw Zaga for the first time, did you

14 recognise him?

15 A. When do you mean?

16 Q. I apologise. When you saw him the first.

17 A. You mean over there, while I was there?

18 Q. Well, you were told that a certain Zaga

19 existed, and when you saw him the first time, did you

20 recognise him as Zaga?

21 A. No. I didn't have his physical description;

22 just what he did, his acts.

23 Q. When you saw him first, did somebody say,

24 "That's Zaga"?

25 A. No. No. Because they would come in groups,

Page 2461

1 and I think that nobody was there to explain who was

2 who. We just did what we could.

3 Q. Did you ever talk to him?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When you saw him for the first time, how was

6 he dressed?

7 A. As far as I am able to remember, I don't

8 think he was wearing an army uniform. I think he was

9 wearing civilian clothing, but I really don't

10 remember. And once again, let me repeat: I was very

11 afraid, and that upsets my recollections.

12 Q. Yes, I agree with you fully. When he came on

13 that first occasion, who was he with?

14 A. I think he might have been alone, actually.

15 The first time he came, that is.

16 Q. Did you remember when that first time was,

17 perhaps? Because you have now remembered that he was

18 maybe wearing civilian clothes. Do you happen to

19 remember when he came first?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. How did he come? By car or on foot?

22 A. For our safety, we did not leave the house,

23 and the rooms we were in were facing the meadow and not

24 the entrance door, so the cars didn't come up to that

25 house, which means that he came to the door on foot.

Page 2462

1 But probably he came by car otherwise, because I don't

2 think he came on foot.

3 Q. I absolutely agree when you say that it is

4 difficult to remember all the details. I fully agree

5 with you there. But do you not allow for the

6 possibility that you saw him for the first time when he

7 came to the funeral of those people who had been

8 killed?

9 A. No, because I didn't see the funeral myself

10 or the people that went, because this was for security

11 reasons that we should go as far away from the window

12 as possible, and the street and everything else, to

13 keep away.

14 Q. No. You didn't understand me. Yes, I know

15 you couldn't see him directly, but did he come to the

16 house after the funeral?

17 A. To my house or Karaman's House?

18 Q. No. Karaman's House.

19 A. When the tragedy took place, I was in my own

20 house, my own home. When those 48 people were killed,

21 I was still in my own house, my own home.

22 Q. Very well. Well, there were several

23 incidents, so it is difficult to determine when each of

24 them took place.

25 Could you tell us who said, without listing

Page 2463

1 those persons -- you mentioned four of them today --

2 that they could go and leave Karaman's House.

3 A. Of course, I said that all of us who were

4 there, that during that time Pero Elez was in charge.

5 And I repeat: There was a group of them, so I assume

6 that Pero Elez must have given permission to somebody

7 to take those girls away from there.

8 Q. I understood that you were present also.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did anyone say where they were taking them?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did they say why they were taking them?

13 A. Not to us.

14 Q. Could you tell us when this happened?

15 A. Again, I cannot give you the exact date, but

16 it was the end of September or the beginning of

17 October.

18 Q. So you still maintain that in addition to the

19 persons that you listed today, Dragan Kunarac was also

20 present when these four persons were taken away?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What can you tell us in response to my

23 assertion that there are statements in the record who

24 give opposite statements to yours regarding Zaga's

25 presence when these girls were taken away?

Page 2464

1 A. Could you please repeat the question?

2 Q. What would be your response to my assertion

3 that in the brief there are allegations by other

4 witnesses who claim that Kunarac was not present with

5 these persons who took away the girls?

6 A. All I can say is that I didn't know him. But

7 if I recognised the face now and saw him here, it is up

8 to someone else to judge whether I was wrong or right.

9 Simply, some details one remembers better than others,

10 that face.

11 Q. I agree with you that you cannot remember all

12 the details. But would you allow for the possibility

13 that that may not have been so?

14 A. Yes, possibly.

15 Q. Why didn't you mention this detail in your

16 statement of 1993 to the Security Services in Sarajevo?

17 A. You mean the detail excluding the

18 possibility?

19 Q. You said today in your testimony that you saw

20 Zaga a couple of times in passing. I remember that.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you explain what that means?

23 A. I think that I explained to the Prosecutors.

24 In front of the house was a Muslim house where Alija

25 Hrbinic lived, and in that area there was a large

Page 2465

1 meadow and there was livestock there. And they

2 probably came -- I don't know whether it was for

3 themselves personally or for their unit -- to collect

4 some of the livestock for food, and as the road passed

5 by.

6 Q. I understand what you're saying. You mean he

7 would drop in as he passed by?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'm not quite sure whether this was

10 translated well. The point is that he didn't come

11 there intentionally, that his aim was not to come

12 there, but he just dropped in on his way as he was

13 passing by. That is how I understood what you said.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. While you were in Karaman's House, did you

16 have regular meals and were you able to keep clean?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We come to the incident when you went to

19 speak to your family by phone at the motel and you

20 didn't see any military equipment in front of the

21 hotel. That is what you said on the 11th page of your

22 statement. You just saw some telecommunications

23 equipment?

24 A. Yes, because those people who had brought me

25 there were very much afraid that something could happen

Page 2466

1 to me. So it was like in the movies. An armed man

2 would run up the steps and then I would pass quickly,

3 so I didn't really have time to take stock of anything.

4 Q. Did you have a telephone in Karaman's House?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who could you call from that phone?

7 A. We never even tried, except the people who

8 were from that house. But in the motel, because that

9 was the order we had been given, should anybody disturb

10 us, that we could call them.

11 Q. You mentioned that while you were in

12 Karaman's House, a Montenegrin would come called

13 Dragan. Could you describe that person for us?

14 A. He came in the evening, but again he was a

15 man of 45, 50, very big, heavy. I can't remember -- I

16 didn't see the colour of his eyes or hair, I didn't

17 observe that.

18 Q. Does that mean that that person has nothing

19 in common with Dragan Kunarac, Zaga? You mean that it

20 was him?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In your statement, you mentioned that there

23 were other Montenegrins who came. Could you tell us

24 whether they were Montenegrins belonging to Pero Elez's

25 unit?

Page 2467

1 A. That man introduced himself. He gave his

2 name and surname, and he said, "I am Misko Savic, the

3 son of Cedo. My mother's name is Dusanka, from the

4 village of Sule," which is somewhere in Montenegro, so

5 he was a member of Pero Elez's guards.

6 Q. Do you know how DB left and who helped her to

7 get out?

8 A. As far as I can tell, I know she left the

9 house with Radovan Stankovic. What happened after

10 that, I don't know.

11 Q. Today, you allowed for the possibility that

12 perhaps Kunarac was not present when these four girls

13 were taken away. Let me remind you that on page 10 of

14 your statement, you said: "I had the feeling that

15 Jankovic, Kunarac, and Janjic had the same position as

16 Elez."

17 A. That is my opinion to this day, because,

18 after all, this was a small place, and this Pero Elez,

19 according to certain rumours, was a local Serb leader

20 in the area of Miljevina. And it is my opinion even

21 now that there were old parts of Foca, and each of

22 those mahalas or neighbourhoods had their own persons

23 in charge like Pero Elez. A village like Mjesaja, I

24 don't know where it is, but I know from the story that

25 Gojko Jankovic was in charge up there. For Tuta, of

Page 2468

1 course, also the rumour was that he engaged in crime.

2 So I think they had the same sort of positions, only

3 for different parts of Foca.

4 Q. Yes, I understand what you're saying. But

5 when describing this, you said: "I had the impression,

6 because of the way in which they communicated amongst

7 themselves, the way in which they spoke to one another,

8 as if they were equals." But today you had some doubts

9 as to whether they were all together at the same time.

10 So my question is: does this conclusion emanate from

11 the explanation that you gave now, rather than what I

12 have just read out to you?

13 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand you.

14 Q. I understood you to say that they were sort

15 of leaders, because in Foca everyone knows everyone

16 else, people knew who Pero was before the war, who Tuta

17 was, and you came to the conclusion on the basis of

18 their prewar biographies. That is how I understood

19 what you said.

20 In this statement that you gave, you

21 described a detail which you now have some doubts

22 about; that is, that both Zaga and Pero and Jankovic

23 and Tuta and Zelja were all present simultaneously, and

24 that then you came to the conclusion that they were

25 equals in rank, judging by the way they communicated?

Page 2469

1 A. Yes, that is when I came to that conclusion,

2 and not on the basis of any rumours.

3 Q. But today you also told us that you saw Zaga

4 only in passing?

5 A. I said in passing before that. But on that

6 day, he came specially with that group. I said I had

7 seen him a couple of times in passing, but that one day

8 he was there on purpose, together with the other

9 members of the group that took away those girls.

10 Q. I'm afraid I am still not quite clear about

11 this. A couple of moments ago, you said that you allow

12 for the possibility that Zaga was not with them when

13 those four girls were taken away, because I told you

14 that in the record, there is evidence provided by other

15 witnesses who deny Zaga's presence there and then.

16 In view of the fact that quite some time has

17 gone by, you allowed for the possibility that that may

18 have been so, but now you're somehow contradicting what

19 you said?

20 A. I don't know what to say.

21 Q. Did representatives of the Tribunal visit you

22 after Zaga voluntarily surrendered?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Let me refresh your memory. I have a

25 document which I received from the Prosecution, which

Page 2470

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Page 2471

1 says that on the 13th of March, 1998, Ms. Manke and

2 Thapa came to talk to you, so this was after Kunarac

3 had surrendered. Do you remember that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did they show you any photographs?

6 A. No.

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

8 we have received these documents. Will you let me read

9 it, please?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Which documents?

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

12 this is an internal memorandum which I didn't bring

13 with me because I assumed that the witness would

14 remember those details. I think the Prosecution has

15 that document. I can read out the contents of that

16 document, and if there are any objections --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: What you can do, Counsel, is

18 simply put the questions from what you've learned of

19 those documents to the witness, and then she can

20 answer.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Let me read out the contents, and maybe you

24 will remember then.

25 On the 13th of March, 1998, Mrs. Manke and

Page 2472

1 Mrs. Thapa from the Office of the Prosecutor visited

2 132, and the investigators, in their report, stated the

3 following:

4 "The witness stated that she had heard about

5 Kunarac's arrest on television but that she hadn't

6 recognised him. She said that the face of the man

7 arrested does not seem familiar. She also stated that

8 she didn't know him from before the war and that she

9 learned his proper name from other women who were

10 detained with her. She was not able to describe

11 Kunarac. She said that she did not believe that

12 Captain Dragan, who is mentioned, was actually Dragan

13 Kunarac."

14 Do you remember that now?

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: You appreciate, Counsel, that

17 those are notes by the Prosecution investigators. You

18 appreciate that?

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

20 Honour, but I am trying to refresh the witness's

21 memory.

22 JUDGE HUNT: You can't refresh her

23 recollection from a document which is not hers. May I

24 suggest you simply put to her, "Did you not say to

25 somebody from the Prosecution that you did not

Page 2473

1 recognise Mr. Kunarac at the time of his arrest," and

2 she saw him on television. That's the way to

3 cross-examine on this. It's not her document. You

4 can't ask her whether it's correct or not, but you can

5 use the material in it and ask her those things. If

6 she denies them, then there's a matter that you could

7 arrange with the Prosecution, if they will agree that's

8 what she did say. But you can't get it from the

9 witness. That's all.

10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I take note

11 of your observation, Your Honour.

12 Q. You mentioned the exchange today, and at one

13 point in time you mentioned Ostojic and what he said

14 when he was exchanged with you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you able to conclude from that that in a

17 way, they had experienced some sort of tortures in

18 Sarajevo, as you had in Miljevina?

19 A. No, because it was not the place and time for

20 a conversation. The man was maybe too well aware. He

21 saw young girls of 14 and 15, and he saw himself. So

22 automatically we were not equal, and he felt the need

23 to express his gratitude.

24 Q. Can I infer from that that he couldn't wait

25 to leave Sarajevo?

Page 2474

1 A. Probably, yes. Everyone loves freedom and

2 his own people.

3 Q. Let me remind you again of the event when

4 these four girls were taken away. Did a person with a

5 surname Cicmil come on that occasion?

6 A. I didn't register it, and it doesn't seem to

7 ring a bell.

8 Q. Do you remember whether someone forced you to

9 make the sign of the cross?

10 A. No. No.

11 Q. In your statement given to the Security

12 Services in Sarajevo, you described Zaga in an entirely

13 different manner. Page 3 of your statement. Can you

14 find it, perhaps? Can you read it? It's hardly

15 legible. I have a better copy, so if I may, I'd like

16 to read it to you.

17 "At the end of September, two Samardzics came

18 for me. They are brothers. Their names are Nedjo and

19 Zoran, as I have said, and they are from Bileca, and

20 Pedo. They said that they were preparing me for an

21 exchange. They wanted to protect me from Zaga.

22 "Zaga was allegedly Dragoljub Kunarac, who,

23 as I heard, was by birth from Montenegro. He's about

24 180 to 190 centimetres tall, has very long hands, and

25 wears his hair long. It is brown and straight."

Page 2475

1 You made this statement in 1993, after the

2 exchange. When was your memory better, in 1993 or in

3 1996, when you made the statement to the investigators?

4 A. Of course in 1993.

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We're almost

6 done, Your Honour.

7 Q. Today you mentioned a person called Gagovic,

8 Gaga.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you tell us something about him? When

11 did you first hear about this person?

12 A. I think that was during that same period,

13 that is, the 18th or 19th of August, when I visited the

14 house for the first time, when the girls were talking

15 about their capture, where they had come from. As I

16 knew who had brought me to that house, they knew who

17 had brought them, who had separated them from their

18 mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters. So I heard

19 that name for the first time from their stories.

20 Q. Did you ever see this person, Gagovic, Gaga?

21 A. As I didn't know him, no. Actually, I don't

22 know whether I saw him.

23 Q. You said you spent some time with these other

24 girls in the house. Were you close to any one of

25 them? Did you confide in one another?

Page 2476

1 A. No. No one trusted anyone. At least I

2 thought it was best to keep these things quiet, because

3 every trust could be abused, and I kept it deep within

4 me.

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] This was my

6 last question, Your Honour. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may

9 consult with my colleagues.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. Go ahead.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, if you need to

13 briefly discuss with your client right now, you can do

14 that before you proceed; if it's necessary, if you

15 think it's necessary.

16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No need,

17 Your Honour. Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Go ahead.

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Did you mention today that Gaga came on a

21 number of occasions?

22 A. I think they mentioned him, that he was also

23 with that group. I can't remember all the names now,

24 but I think all these that I have mentioned often came

25 together, and as I didn't know the man, I cannot say

Page 2477

1 yes or no for certain.

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

3 further questions, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

6 Honour, I have a few questions to ask the witness.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please go ahead.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:

9 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

12 am going to base my cross-examination exclusively on

13 today's testimony and linked to the statement that she

14 made in Sarajevo on the 27th of March, 1993, and the

15 statement has been marked as Prosecution Exhibit 202.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. At the beginning of the statement, I read

19 that you gave the statement in the presence of your

20 guardian. And I'm not going to state his name, and

21 don't you say it either. The only thing I'm interested

22 in is whether this individual was a close or distant

23 relative of yours.

24 A. Yes. It is the son of my uncle.

25 Q. Thank you. And then I shall refer back to

Page 2478

1 the following briefly: When my learned colleague

2 questioned you today from -- my learned colleague of

3 the Prosecution, you said that when these four girls

4 were taken away, certain individuals were present -- I

5 don't want to enumerate them all -- and that among them

6 was also present a man with a high rank in the Yugoslav

7 army and that his surname was Kovac.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know which rank he was addressed by

10 these group of people?

11 A. No. Quite simply, I don't know -- I'm not

12 acquainted with ranks, so although I do know that it

13 was a rank of the Yugoslav People's Army, but exactly

14 what rank, I don't know.

15 Q. Was it lieutenant colonel or colonel,

16 perhaps?

17 A. I don't know really.

18 Q. What I'm interested in next is the appearance

19 of this man. Was it a younger man or an elderly man?

20 A. Well, as I saw him them, I think he had a

21 black beret, that he was wearing a camouflage uniform,

22 that he was short, that he was rather on the thin side.

23 Q. How old would you say he was, and what was

24 the colour of his hair?

25 A. He was wearing a black beret, but I don't

Page 2479

1 notice details like that usually, particularly not in

2 circumstances of these kind. But he could have been

3 between 45 and 50. That's how I saw him. That's how I

4 experienced him.

5 Q. So he was a middle-aged man, would you say?

6 A. Well, I don't know whether he's middle-aged

7 or not, but yes.

8 Q. At the end of your statement, you say the

9 following. And this is a very bad photocopy, but

10 please put me right if I read something out wrongly.

11 A. Just a minute, please. May I take a look?

12 Q. It is the one-but-last line of your

13 statement, on the last page: "We continued our journey

14 towards Foca and we stopped off at Velecevo, where

15 there was a women's penitentiary, a house of correction

16 at one time." Have you found that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now I should like to ask you, while you were

19 there -- I see some papers -- did you perhaps see this

20 Kovac there, happen to see him there?

21 A. Well, quite simply, I wasn't looking at that

22 moment, and I didn't see him.

23 Q. Thank you. I have one more matter to clear

24 up. Once again, the photocopy is a very bad one. It

25 is the last page again of your statement, where you

Page 2480

1 say:

2 "I knew nothing of my family, apart from the

3 fact that my father was at the KP Dom in Foca, and when

4 he was transported to Belgrade, Predrag Trifkovic told

5 me this. And he also said that they were looking for

6 me, but that a certain Mirko Kovac, nicknamed Klanfa,

7 wanted me to go to Sarajevo for an exchange."

8 Was that entered into the statement

9 correctly, as I have read it out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you the following:

12 Were you -- did you mean Mirko Kovac, perhaps? Did you

13 mean Marko Kovac and not Mirko Kovac? Did you

14 misspeak, perhaps?

15 A. Well, I'd like to stress that I know the

16 surname was Kovac, certainly, I know he had a rank, but

17 possibly I did misspeak when it came to his Christian

18 name. So the surname I'm certain of, and his rank, I

19 know he had a rank, but quite possibly I was mistaken

20 in his name.

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you,

22 Witness.

23 Your Honours, those were my questions. I

24 have no further questions.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

Page 2481

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

2 Honours, Mr. Vukovic's Defence has no questions of this

3 witness. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I

6 have a few questions.

7 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

8 Q. Do you recall when the accused Dragoljub

9 Kunarac was arrested or surrendered?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you recall that you ever saw him on TV or

12 in newspaper?

13 A. Yes, because in the Bosnian-Herzegovinian --

14 the Bosnian and Herzegovinian public did follow the

15 event. So yes, I did, because we always follow all the

16 trials, and all the trials are televised.

17 Q. And did you see a picture of him, either on

18 TV or in a newspaper? Do you recall that?

19 A. Quite simply, these are matters that I wanted

20 to skip over. I didn't pay attention to them. And

21 quite simply, I don't know. I didn't want to look at

22 them. And I very often make a mistake when it comes to

23 names, so I really don't know whether the person I saw

24 was the person of that particular name.

25 Q. When you looked here through the courtroom,

Page 2482

1 you pointed out Dragoljub Kunarac and you said that he

2 is Zaga, whom you saw at Karaman's House. Are you

3 sure, and how can you be sure? What is it you

4 recognise?

5 A. I recognised his very marked bones here, and

6 all the people looked different. He was very tall and

7 he had these very prominent cheekbones, and that is

8 something which has stayed with me and for me is a part

9 of my recollection.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions,

11 Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,

13 for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You are now

14 free. You can go. Can you just wait?

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Do we have another witness from

17 the Prosecution?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we did not

19 anticipate that it would be that short, and therefore

20 the witness is not in the house. She is here in The

21 Hague, but she's not in the house. And it's also a

22 point that only today we gave the information to the

23 Defence counsel that we would have the Witness 96, so I

24 assume they're also not prepared to have her today. So

25 I would rather suggest not to bring her here right now,

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Page 2484

1 which would take some time, but put her on tomorrow.

2 But we may have -- we may discuss the Defence

3 motion for protective measures, which we received today

4 and we would like some clarification on.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have heard what the

6 Prosecution have said about the next witness. Probably

7 we will start with the next witness tomorrow morning at

8 0930.

9 The Prosecution can proceed with Defence

10 motion on protective measures, and you indicated that

11 you wish to seek clarification.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE MUMBA: We are wondering whether we

14 should hold this in public, in a public session,

15 because I saw the motion is confidential, so it's

16 between the parties and Trial Chamber.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: I think perhaps it would be

18 wise if we did this in-camera at the moment, and

19 whatever your decision may be, of course, can be made.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Out of caution, let's

21 have it in closed session. Private session, yes.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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13 pages 2485-2492 redacted private session

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21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 3.47 p.m., to be reconvened on

23 Thursday, the 27th day of April, 2000,

24 at 9.30 a.m.

25