1 Wednesday, 3
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Registrar, please call the
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case
9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS 48 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, witness. We are
14 continuing and you are still under solemn declaration.
15 Cross-examination is continuing.
16 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good
18 morning, Your Honours. Before I ask my first
19 question. I would like to try and solve a dilemma.
20 Mrs. Jelena has told me that yesterday, when we
21 presented the evidence, exhibits, there was an
22 interview which the witness gave to the BBC, and it was
23 not certain whether this was tendered into evidence as
24 a Defence exhibit under the number D50, marked as D50,
25 Defence Exhibit 50. As I know, the Prosecution did not
1 contest it, nor did it have any objections to that
3 JUDGE MUMBA: My recollection serves me
4 right. I think I remember asking about all the three
5 documents that they had been formally admitted into
6 evidence under seal. I'll ask the registrar to
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Well, the
9 decision had not been taken as to D50, whether it was
10 going to be tendered into evidence. The other exhibits
11 had been tendered as Defence exhibits.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: So. So, Mr. Prodanovic, would
13 you like D50 tendered into evidence?
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
16 JUDGE MUMBA: No objection?
17 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. It will be tendered
19 and it will be under seal.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
22 Q. Good morning, Witness. Let me remind you
23 where we left off yesterday. We were discussing the
24 conditions in the secondary school centre. My next
25 question has to do with food, and on page 10 of the
1 statement you gave to the Tribunal, and it is
2 Prosecution Exhibit P78, you said the following: "As
3 far as my stay in the school, we were given breakfast,
4 lunch, and supper in regular intervals. There was not
5 enough food, but we had to make do with what we got.
6 We would get a cup of tea with some bread for
7 breakfast, and sometimes jam and liver paste. For
8 lunch we would get two slices of bread, potatoes or
9 peas, some soup or macaroni. For dinner we would get
10 spaghetti and macaroni or rice. We used to go to the
11 kitchen with the children to eat."
12 Do you still stand beside that claim?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Could you tell us, please, what is your
16 A. I have four years of primary school.
17 Q. So you have four years of primary school.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can we take it that you are fully literate
20 with those four years of primary school?
21 A. I think that I feel that I am, yes.
22 Q. Could you write in the Cyrillic script or the
23 Latin script?
24 A. I write in the Latin script.
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should
1 like to ask the usher to bring the witness a blank
2 piece of paper, and I should like to ask her to write
3 her name and surname on a piece of paper.
4 A. [Witness complied]
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. I should kindly like to ask you that you
7 write your name and surname four more times, please.
8 A. There's no need for me to write any more.
9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
10 I should like to request you to grant this, because I
11 am asking this for a particular reason. So could the
12 witness please be asked to write her name down some
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Usher, please take the
15 paper back to the witness.
16 Witness, please write your name and surname
17 four times as requested by counsel.
18 A. [Witness complied]. My hands are trembling.
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we -- I
21 May I have a look, please? I should like to
22 ask this signature to be tendered into evidence as a
23 Defence Exhibit.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Madam Registrar, can we
25 have a number?
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The number
2 will be D51, Defence exhibit.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: I take it there is no objection
4 from the Prosecution.
5 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: It will be under seal, of
8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Could you tell me how you sign your name,
10 whether in capital letters or in script?
11 A. In script.
12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should now
13 like to ask the witness be shown diagrams that the
14 Defence has received, along with the statement of 1995,
15 and it is P78, P78. May she be shown the document? I
16 think that the witness has been given it. So it is a
17 statement, in fact, in both languages.
18 Q. At the end of that statement there is a
19 sketch which you drew. Would you please take a look at
20 those sketches now, at the end of your statement. The
21 sketches are Exhibit 80, at the end of the statement.
22 Do you remember whether it was you who did
23 those sketches?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So you say that you did not draw those
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you write your name and surname on the
4 sketches? And take a look at the document, please.
5 Take a look at the sketches. The sketches that you
6 looked at a moment ago. Not the statement itself but
7 the sketches.
8 A. No.
9 Q. (redacted),
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Very well. Take a look at the first page of
13 the statement you gave to the Tribunal, it is P78, and
14 take a look at your signature. Did you write your name
15 and surname on the first page?
16 A. I don't remember that either.
17 Q. Would you now see if you gave your initials
18 of your name and surname on every page of this
19 statement? Are your initials there? Did you write
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Did you write your name and surname on the
23 last page?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. Do you remember whether the statement was
1 read out to you in the Bosnian language when you gave
3 A. Yes, it was.
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence,
5 at this point, is going to object, and it considers
6 that the work of the investigator by compiling the
7 statement in English and having the witness sign
8 without the witness knowing English, that this can lead
9 to certain problems with regard to certain
10 interpretations, but not to show events to have taken
11 place in an entirely different way.
12 I should now like to have the witness shown
13 Defence Exhibit D48, please. This is the document. It
14 is the statement that was made to the state
16 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, Mr. Prodanovic.
17 You said you object. Now, I'm not quite sure what it
18 is you're objecting to. Is there some real distinction
19 between the English and Bosnian versions of
20 Exhibit P78?
21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
22 Honour, but in principle, because the witness is
23 signing a statement which is in English, whereas she
24 doesn't understand English. So, actually, at the time
25 of signature, the witness does not know what she is
1 signing. So I'm just bringing up a point of principle,
2 because it can lead to certain problems, because if you
3 don't actually understand what you're signing, and she
4 doesn't understand English, she doesn't know exactly
5 what it is she is signing. I didn't say that there
6 were any discrepancies, but it can lead to problems
7 with this kind of procedure.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it certainly can if we
9 take the English as the one she's accepting. Clearly,
10 the only one which she has accepted is the Bosnian
11 version, which the Prosecution says has been correctly
12 interpreted. That's a matter of common sense, I would
13 have thought. But you're not objecting now to the
14 tender of Exhibit 78?
15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
16 Honour, no.
17 Q. Please look at the document and you will find
18 in writing, that is to say, please look and see if your
19 name and surname has been signed.
20 A. Well, I don't need to look at this because
21 this document was in front of me yesterday and I didn't
22 give that statement and so I don't need to look at it.
23 Q. Could you please compare the names, the names
24 and surnames that you wrote down in the English version
25 of the statement and the statement that was given to
1 the state commissioner of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
2 A. No, I can't compare it when I didn't give
3 those names that are here. I know the names that I
4 stated, and I cannot say that I did give them but the
5 names here in English, that is not mine. That is not
6 my statement. These are not my names, the names that I
7 gave. Because I didn't know those people let alone
8 know their names and state their names.
9 Q. And I have another question regarding that
10 document in front of you. Please take a look at page
11 one of the written statement and tell us whether it is
12 addressed abroad, the telephone number and street; is
13 that correct? I'm referring to the written page. I
14 think it is the seventh line from the top. Turn
15 another page.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Take a look at the address there, please and
18 the country, in the country in which you were? Is it
19 your address? Is it the right street? Is it the place
20 and the telephone number?
21 A. That is neither the street nor the telephone
22 number nor the place where I stayed.
23 Q. So you want to say that all that is made up?
24 A. Well, I didn't give those statements. I
25 don't remember having given those statements. Of
1 course it's been fabricated. As soon as I see all
2 these names of all these Serbs, I didn't give even a
3 third of those names and here they are. There's so
4 many names here so it couldn't be.
5 Q. On the 15th of August 1992, were you in Novi
6 Pazar? Yesterday, I heard that you were and I would
7 like to have you assert that, please.
8 A. What did you say?
9 Q. On the 15th of August 1992, were you in Novi
11 A. No. I couldn't be in Novi Pazar in August.
12 Q. No, I said the 15th of August, 1992?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should now
15 like the usher to hand around a document to the Trial
16 Chamber and the witness. The Prosecution does have a
17 copy of this document.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Please describe it sufficiently
19 and give us the date of the document.
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The date of
21 the document, Your Honour, is the 15th of August,
22 1992. On the document is a statement, the name and
23 surname of the witness and her particulars, and the
24 witness' signature. In handwriting, it talks about
25 some incidents that occurred.
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. Let me just ask you my question. I haven't
3 asked you anything yet.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the formal
5 numbering, please?
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
7 will be marked D52 as a Defence exhibit and it is being
8 marked under seal.
9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Underneath the word "statement", is that your
11 name and surname?
12 A. It is my name, it is my surname, but it is
13 not my signature.
14 Q. Just one moment, please, Witness, let me
15 finish. Let me finish, please. The date of birth, is
16 that your date of birth underneath the name and
17 surname? The year is 1957. As far as I remember, you
18 said yesterday that you were born in 1957?
19 A. Yes, I was. But I can't see that here.
20 Q. Were you born in Tecici in Foca municipality?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the fourth column says types of felonies
23 and does it say rape?
24 A. I don't understand this here.
25 Q. Can you look at it and say whether it is or
2 A. Well, it does say something here, the writing
3 is a little small and I can't understand, anything
5 Q. Can you read it out?
6 A. No, I can't. It's too small. I can't see it
7 well enough to read it out.
8 Q. Underneath that, have we got a column when
9 the felony took place and is that the 13th of July,
10 1992? Is that the date given?
11 A. That was the departure from Partizan.
12 Q. It was not on the 13th -- it was on the 13th
13 of August you said?
14 A. Yes, the 13th of August from Partizan,
16 Q. And this is the 13th of July 1992?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. Where it says the place of the event, the
19 name of the town and street, the secondary school
20 centre, Aladza Foca, that is what it says; is that
21 correct? Take a look, please, and tell us.
22 A. Yes, it says Aladza.
23 Q. Underneath that, we're not going to read out
24 the names of the witnesses out loud, but it has the
25 names of witnesses. There are two witnesses which you
1 yourself mentioned here yesterday; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Underneath that column, it says that you are
4 a housewife and gives your name and surname; is that
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Underneath that column, we have the name,
8 surname of the attacker and his profession, and there
9 are three names; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Does it state the name of any person who is
12 here in the courtroom. Take a look, please, and tell
14 A. I can't find it.
15 Q. Underneath is your own signature and your own
16 handwriting and it says your name and surname. Did you
17 sign that?
18 A. I don't remember. My memory is not very
19 good. I have absolutely no recollection of signing
20 that. I was too ill. I didn't feel like doing
22 Q. Could you compare this statement with the
23 statement which is on page one, that is to say, page
24 one of the statement that you gave to the investigators
25 of the Tribunal on the 9th of September, 1995? Can you
1 take a look at that, please, and see if the signatures
2 are similar or the same, identical?
3 A. I don't need to look at it and I'm not going
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness -- before we proceed,
6 Witness, you should answer questions. The counsel has
7 asked you to look at a document with your name written
8 on it and to answer the question: Is the handwriting
9 or the names are they written in a similar manner? If
10 you don't remember signing anything, you say so. If
11 they are not, you say so. If they are similar you say
12 so. Just answer the question.
13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Please take a look at the statement.
15 A. Is that the statement?
16 Q. No, underneath. The first one is in
17 English. Underneath, underneath. Are the signatures
18 similar? Please take a look. Are both signatures in
19 block letters?
20 A. Yes. I do not remember having signed this.
21 Q. Do you remember having talked to the
22 investigators of the Tribunal in connection with this
23 statement that is being presented to you just now, this
25 A. I do not remember.
1 Q. When you were shown this statement, did you
2 state the following to the investigators of the
3 Tribunal, this is D47 I'm saying this for the Trial
4 Chamber. Paragraph number two on the second page. I
5 am going to read this out to you. Is this what you
6 said to them, "I do not remember having made any
7 statement while I was in Novi Pazar."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. "I remember that once arrived in Novi Pazar, I
10 spoke to someone from Merhamed. They asked me about
11 what had happened. At that time, I was in a state of
12 shock. I was totally shaken. I was so shaky that I
13 could not even write.
14 The document that you show me is not written
15 in my handwriting. I'm not even sure that the
16 signature originates from me.
17 In this statement, a gang-rape incident is
18 mentioned. I was gang-raped only once by a group of
19 men when I was already detained in Partizan. I think
20 that this happened around the middle of my detention
21 time in Partizan."
22 Is this the statement that you made to the
23 investigators of the Tribunal when they showed you this
25 A. I think so. That seems to be my
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like
3 this document to be admitted into evidence as a Defence
4 exhibit, please.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean D52?
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not
7 hear of it being admitted.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, it was given a number,
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well,
11 Your Honour. I didn't understand really. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, any
14 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: So it's admitted into evidence
16 under seal.
17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Could you please tell me when you left the
19 school, after how many days?
20 A. I do not recall. Eight or ten days later,
21 but I do not recall the exact date. Whether it's seven
22 days or eight days up to ten days, I do not remember
24 Q. You said that there were guards in front of
25 the Partizan building.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Would you tell me what they wore?
3 A. Well, they wore normal clothes for a certain
4 period of time and then later on they had some kind of
5 blue attire.
6 Q. When you say that they were dressed normally
7 and later on that they had some kind of attire, did
8 they have civilian clothes at first?
9 A. Well, these clothes were sort of blue. They
10 were not multicoloured camouflage, like what the army
11 wore. It wasn't that type.
12 Q. How many were there per shift?
13 A. I remember that in one shift there would be
14 two men and then two men would replace them, but I did
15 not know the other two. I remembered Bogdan Pavlovic
16 very well, and also this other man nicknamed Sone. I
17 don't actually know whether this was his nickname or
18 real name, I just know that that's what they called
19 him. They called him Sone. They talked to one another
20 in this way, and the other one was Bogdan Pavlovic.
21 Q. Tell me, were the guards the same in front of
22 Partizan and the school?
23 A. No. In the school there were some other
24 men. Sone was in the school for a given period of
25 time, and then first when we came actually to the high
1 school there were others. There was this youngish
2 man. I don't know his name. Then Sone arrived. He
3 was there for a few days before we were transferred to
5 Q. Could you go to the nearby stores?
6 A. No. No. No.
7 Q. Do you know whether anyone could go to the
8 nearby stores?
9 A. No. No. I do not remember. As far as we
10 were concerned, I don't remember anyone being able to
11 go out or dare to go out.
12 Q. Did you go to have coffee with Vida
14 A. No. She did come to see us in the hall, but
15 I did not go to have coffee with her, no.
16 Q. Do you remember, when you were going back
17 from town, would you sometimes return from town with
18 coffee in your hands?
19 A. No. No.
20 Q. Could you tell me whether there was a metal
21 fence around the Partizan yard?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you tell me how tall that fence was?
24 A. Oh, come on. You want me to remember that?
25 I didn't measure this fence or whatever.
1 Q. Let me jog your memory. On page 11 of your
2 statement, you said that it was that height that you
3 could place your elbows on the fence.
4 A. Well, it was most probably that way, but you
5 want me to remember all of that, how tall the fence
6 was, after eight years? That's a silly question, as
7 far as I'm concerned. And of course it was a metal
8 fence. I didn't use a yardstick to measure it. Come
10 Q. On page 11, you also said that the fence had
11 been placed there before the war?
12 A. Well, of course it had.
13 Q. There were bars on the windows?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were they placed there before the war?
16 A. Most probably so.
17 Q. Here --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpretation is now
19 French. We have lost the English on channel 4.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
24 the Defence has a certificate stating that the Partizan
25 hall was renovated and adapted in 1990. Its
1 present-day indoor and outdoor appearance is identical
2 to that dating back to 1990. I would like to ask the
3 usher to take copies of this certificate. I think it
4 is important, because the Prosecutor and the Defence
5 counsel could not reach agreement as to whether
6 Partizan was a prison or a collection centre. Perhaps
7 the bars are reminiscent of a prison, but this is not
8 actually the case, and that is why I think that this
9 certificate is so important.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead. Can we have
11 the usher, please.
12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness
13 doesn't have to be shown this particular certificate.
14 A. This was not a prison. This was a sports
15 hall. Of course it was a sports hall. It was not a
16 prison. It was a prison only for us, the women who
17 were staying there.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. The witness has
19 explained that very well.
20 A. Right. It was not a prison before. Yes,
21 there were bars on the windows, of course, yes, there
22 was a metal fence all around it, there was a yard.
23 When we arrived in Partizan --
24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Please, please. Would you answer my question.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we have the question,
2 could we have the number, please, Madam Registrar, for
3 this document?
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
5 will be marked D53.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: You would like it admitted into
7 evidence, Mr. Prodanovic, I take it?
8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely.
9 That is just what I wanted to propose, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the
12 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Was the door of the sports hall locked?
15 A. No. No, it couldn't have been locked. There
16 wasn't even a lock on it. All of it was broken down.
17 When we walked in, there was garbage all over the
18 place. It was all dirty and messy when we came in. We
19 also found seven mats in there and garbage, whatever.
20 It was probably where people came to train. It was not
21 a prison before that, it was a sports hall.
22 Q. Could you move in front of Partizan during
23 the day or during the night?
24 A. No. No, we could not move about. At a given
25 point in time, Bogdan said that we could take the
1 children out. It was about two hours perhaps. Then
2 the soldiers came immediately and said that we should
3 all go back in, that the children cannot be allowed to
4 go out and that we were not supposed to go out. We
5 would only leave the hall when the soldiers would take
6 us out and when they would bring us back and as for
7 walking, promenading around, no, we could not.
8 Q. If I remember correctly, yesterday you said
9 you could even go to the Scout club, the small building
10 that was in front of Partizan, and you explained
11 yesterday what was in that building.
12 A. I was taken there to be raped. That is the
13 building right next to the Partizan building. That is
14 where I was taken. I saw that this was some kind of a
15 little club, whatever. There was a concrete floor.
16 Don't know about everything that was there. But I did
17 not go there to see what it was like and what was there
18 or whatever. A group of soldiers took me there to rape
19 me in this small place.
20 It's not that I went there intentionally to
21 go and have a look at it, that I wanted to do so of my
22 own free will. A group of soldiers took me to this
23 club, and they raped me on the concrete floor.
24 Q. Do you remember when you were first taken to
25 the house in Aladza, Zlata's house?
1 A. No. No, I do not remember when I was first
2 taken there.
3 Q. Do you remember who the first person was to
4 take you there?
5 A. No, I don't remember that either.
6 Q. Can you tell us whether you remember how you
7 were taken there, on foot or by car?
8 A. By car. I was taken by car. What this was
9 like, I don't know. I don't remember what the car was
10 like, the make or the colour, nothing.
11 Q. Can you say where the Zlata house is, on the
12 left-hand side or the right-hand side?
13 A. Yes. On the right-hand side. When you get
14 in from the Cehotina, Zlata's house is on the
15 right-hand side. [redacted]
17 Q. What was Zlata's husband's name?
18 A. I don't know. I don't remember what Zlata's
19 husband's name was. I do not remember.
20 Q. Do you remember what his profession was?
21 A. No, I do not remember that either. I don't
22 know what he was by profession. I don't know.
23 Q. Do you know -- do you remember, rather,
24 whether you were taken on your own or with someone
1 A. I was taken there on my own but there were
2 other women and girls there, and there were soldiers.
3 The kitchen was full.
4 Q. Can you describe this house to us, how many
5 floors it had?
6 A. I remember that downstairs there was one
7 floor. There was an old granny there, Zlata's mother.
8 The soldiers opened the door; we saw this old granny
9 sitting there. She could not move. Then we were taken
10 upstairs. How many floors there were, whatever, I
11 cannot remember all of that. I just remember very well
12 that there were these two floors.
13 Q. So you claim that the granny was there in the
15 A. Yes. I personally saw her. They opened the
16 basement door and then there was this granny, who was
17 immobile. She was wrapped up in a blanket. She had
18 stayed there after her daughter had left, and what
19 happened to her, I have no idea.
20 Q. Was that Zlata's mother?
21 A. Well, whether it was Zlata's mother or her
22 husband's mother, I don't know. I don't know that.
23 Q. When you were taken to Zlata's house, who
24 raped you first, do you remember?
25 A. I don't remember.
1 Q. Where did he rape you, on the couch or
2 somewhere else?
3 A. I don't remember whether it was a couch or a
4 sofa, three-seat sofa. I don't remember.
5 Q. Was it on the upper floor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us what room this took place in?
8 A. From the kitchen, we went through into a
9 room. What it was actually, what that room was, I
10 don't really know.
11 Q. Did the room have any furniture in it?
12 A. There was some furniture, but what was there,
13 I don't really remember. Whether there was just a bed
14 or some sofas. There was a little table. I don't
15 remember what was in it exactly.
16 Q. Would you be able to draw us a sketch of the
17 rooms on the upper floor where you were?
18 A. No, I wouldn't be able to. I couldn't draw
19 it because I have no strength left in me, nor can I
20 remember what it was like. So I can't make a sketch of
21 where I stayed.
22 Q. Could you draw us a sketch perhaps of the
23 street and the house?
24 A. No, I couldn't do that either. Why should I
25 draw it when I know?
1 Q. Have you ever made a sketch of it?
2 A. No, never, because I know, because I was born
3 in Foca, my brother lived there for many years, my two
4 aunts lived there for many years, [redacted]
5 [redacted]. I know that very well. And the
6 first time they took me there was towards Aladza,
7 across the bridge. We turned right afterwards, and
8 then we went by the mosque. I don't think there's any
9 need for me to draw a sketch of that street when I know
10 what it was like.
11 Q. May I take it then, from what you have said,
12 that bad things happened to you there?
13 A. Yes, of course bad things happened to me.
14 Q. Why did you not mention that in a single
15 word? Why did you not write it in the statement you
16 gave to the investigators of the Tribunal in 1995?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. The statement is a lengthy one. It is some
19 ten pages.
20 A. Yes. I made that statement. I said that bad
21 things had happened to me, that I suffered from Zoran
22 Vukovic, that I was -- my breasts were injured. I
23 think that I did give that statement.
24 Q. Well, I didn't find that in anyplace.
25 A. I think I did. As far as the Tribunal is
1 concerned, I think I did give that statement that they
2 hurt my breasts, that I was gang-raped, and that while
3 I was still conscious, I know that six people raped
4 me. After, that I don't know. I know nothing after
5 that. When I came to, when I regained consciousness, I
6 was covered in brandy. I was all wet. I stank of
7 brandy, my hair, my clothes. I wasn't able to get up.
8 Some soldiers helped me get up.
9 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether Zaga
10 personally took you home?
11 A. I remember he did once.
12 Q. Could you please tell me if you remember
13 telling the investigators, and it is document D47 that
14 we're talking about, that is the document, it is the
15 last page, that is to say, page 4, where you state: "I
16 don't know whether Zaga personally took me to that
18 A. Well, I'm not sure.
19 Q. Is that what you stated?
20 A. I'm not sure.
21 Q. Very well. Can you tell us how high you
22 are? What is your height?
23 A. How should I know? I never measured myself.
24 How should I know how tall I am?
25 Q. Do you remember having described in a
1 statement what Zaga looks like?
2 A. I think I did. I think I did.
3 Q. Can you tell us how you described him, how
4 tall he was, how old he was?
5 A. Well, of course I didn't know how old he
6 was. I said "roughly." I didn't ask him how old he
7 was. I didn't ask him how tall he was.
8 Q. But did you make an assessment? Did you give
9 a rough guess?
10 A. Yes, I did, because everybody there -- of
11 course, I wasn't able to ask them how old they were,
12 but --
13 Q. Could you give me a direct answer, please,
14 Witness? I'm asking you direct questions. So if you
15 would, would you give me direct answers, please? Do
16 you remember --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, is it important to you
18 to know the height of the witness?
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
20 for me it is important, because the witness described
21 how tall Kunarac was, and I wanted to ask --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: You're asking about the
23 witness's height. This witness, her height, is it
24 important? Would you like to know that?
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is why
1 I asked the question, but she said she didn't know.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: No, she can be asked to stand
3 and that can be done.
4 Perhaps the Prosecution know.
5 Witness, would you please stand up?
6 A. I can stand up, yes, if I need to.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please do stand up. You
8 can put your headphones off if they are not long
10 Yes, counsel, you can observe the witness.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you give a rough guess as to your height?
13 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the
14 witness. We didn't hear the answer.
15 JUDGE HUNT: The interpreters cannot hear the
17 JUDGE MUMBA: There are too many buttons to
19 A. To measure me, is that what you want?
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No my
21 question is the following, Your Honour. My height is
22 177 centimetres. The witness described Kunarac as a
23 man who was 177 centimetres tall. Now my question is
24 whether Kunarac was taller or not as tall as the
1 JUDGE MUMBA: As far as the witness
3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, the Trial
6 Chamber would like to ask the Prosecution whether it
7 can have assistance to have the formal height of the
8 witness. Not now, later.
9 MS. KUO: Your Honour, if the Court is asking
10 the Prosecution to ascertain that information, we are
11 unable to because we can't have contact with the
12 witness. So perhaps the Victim Witness Unit could.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. If you could ask
14 them to do that.
15 MS. KUO: Okay, very well.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: It can be put on paper and
17 counsel can be given and the Court.
18 MS. KUO: I will relay that to the Victim
19 Witness Unit.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Please proceed, counsel.
21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I'm asking you this, Witness, because on page
23 13 of your statement, you describe Dragan Kunarac as
24 being a man of about 45 or 46. He had black hair. And
25 he did not have a moustache or a beard. He was about
1 177 or 178 centimetres tall.
2 You said that you saw Zaga yourself?
3 A. I can't hear. This isn't working. I
4 apologise. I have a problem.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have assistance from the
6 usher, please.
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You said you saw Zaga. Was he taller or
9 shorter than you?
10 A. Well, I don't remember. In all the pain, I
11 didn't actually look to see whether he was taller or
12 shorter. But it was approximately the height that I
13 gave. Of course I didn't have a metre to measure him
14 to see whether he was taller or shorter.
15 Q. In your assessment you say he was 45 or 46,
16 that that was his age which would make him 53 or 54
18 A. Well, yes, I gave a rough estimate. Whether
19 that was his actual age or not, I don't know. I said
20 in my statement that that is how he looked to me.
21 Perhaps he was younger, perhaps he was a little older,
22 I'm not quite sure. I didn't ask him. I didn't say,
23 "How old are you," for me to be able to know. Or
24 neither was I his friend so that I knew exactly Zaga's
1 Q. So in your estimation, he was quite certainly
2 older than you, was he? Is that right?
3 A. Well, he appeared to be older. I thought he
4 was older. In my opinion, he seemed to be older. Now,
5 whether he actually was and how old he was, I don't
6 know. But I thought that he was older than me.
7 Q. Did you ever talk to him at all?
8 A. No.
9 Q. How, then, can you say that he had a
10 Montenegrin accent?
11 A. I didn't say he had a Montenegrin accent.
12 That's a mistake. That was misunderstood. I said that
13 one of them who was a soldier had a Montenegrin accent,
14 but I didn't say that for Zaga. That is a mistake.
15 Somebody misunderstood that.
16 Q. Let me remind you, Witness, it is document
17 P78. May we refer back to that document. And it is
18 the Serbo-Croatian version and the 13th page of it, and
19 the description of Zaga and it says, "He had a
20 Montenegrin accent." And you say that quite
22 A. I don't remember. I did say that for one
23 particular soldier, but I don't remember saying that
24 directly about Zaga, that Zaga had an accent of any
25 kind. I don't remember. But one of the soldiers, one
1 soldier who saved me on one occasion did. I said he
2 had a Montenegrin accent. But I don't remember having
3 said that Zaga had a Montenegrin accent. That is as
4 far as Zaga is concerned.
5 Q. I'm just reading out to you what you stated
6 and what you confirmed to be your statement.
7 A. And I am giving you the answer that I know
8 and truth, only the truth.
9 Q. Do you remember after Zaga surrendered and
10 came here whether you were visited by the investigators
11 of the Tribunal?
12 A. Yes, they did visit me. They brought me a
13 picture. I recognised him straight away.
14 Q. Whose picture did they bring you?
15 A. Zaga's. When he was taken into custody, when
16 he came to The Hague.
17 Q. Was it just one of pictures?
18 A. No, it was two or three pictures. They
19 showed me one and I told them, "You don't have to show
20 me any more. That is the man."
21 Q. Was it a colour photograph?
22 A. It was a photograph. It wasn't in colour, it
23 was an ordinary photograph.
24 Q. So you claim that they only showed you one
1 A. No. They showed me two or three but I didn't
2 ask for them. As soon as I saw the first photograph, I
3 said, "That's the man. That's Kunarac nicknamed Zaga.
4 You don't have to show me anything more, any more of
5 his pictures. That's him."
6 Q. Yesterday, you told us about an incident that
7 took place in a hotel when you were raped. When you
8 were raped in the hotel, do you remember whether you
9 had known Zaga previously, before that?
10 A. No, I don't remember. Because it wasn't once
11 or it wasn't five times, it was umpteen.
12 Q. So when you were raped in the hotel, do you
13 happen to remember who told you that the person who
14 raped you was called Zaga?
15 A. Yes, I remember from the first day that Tuta,
16 Janko Janjic, Tuta, talked to him, and he called him
17 Zaga out loud. He referred to him as Zaga out loud.
18 Q. So you claimed that Tuta told you that it was
20 A. Yes, I do claim that. He did tell me. They
21 were in the corridor and he called him out by his name
22 and when they talked amongst themselves, he said Zaga,
23 he addressed him as Zaga.
24 I remembered that and in other places too
25 when he came to the Partizan, for example, they would
1 call each other, and they would refer to him as Zaga.
2 They didn't call him by his real name.
3 Q. Do you remember whether the investigators of
4 the Tribunal asked you about the circumstances and
5 facts whether Tuta was with Zaga, and that on page
6 three of the document which is marked D47, that you
7 told them the following?
8 A. No, I don't remember.
9 Q. Let me finish, please, let me read out what
10 you stated. "As far as I remember, I did not see that
11 Zaga and Tuta were together in the hotel. There were
12 many soldiers there. I was not able to differentiate
13 between the different groups of soldiers."
14 Did you tell the investigators of the
15 Tribunal that when they asked you about these
17 A. I think I did, yes, as far as the hotel is
19 Q. Well what, then, is the truth. Was -- did
20 Tuta tell you or didn't he?
21 A. Tuta told us when we came to the secondary
22 school centre on that first evening. He said about
23 Zaga. Not in the hotel. I said that yesterday, and
24 you're asking me the same question again today.
25 Q. Let me remind you, Witness. Yesterday, you
1 said that for the first time in the secondary school
2 centre you heard about Zaga from Witness 75 and not
3 from Tuta?
4 A. Yes, from Tuta as well. I said this same
5 thing yesterday as I'm saying now. And you're now
6 asking me questions about the hotel, that he said this
7 told me this in the hotel. He didn't tell me in the
8 hotel. He told me at the secondary school centre in
9 the corridor, in the hallway.
10 Q. But please, Witness, on page 14 of your
11 statement, you describe this occurrence. And it is
12 Prosecution Exhibit P78. The document is marked P78
13 and it is line one on page 14.
14 You describe Zaga, you say he had a
15 Montenegrin accent. He wore the same green/brown
16 uniform that I described earlier on. Janko Janjic,
17 Tuta, told me that his name was Dragan Kunarac?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What do you mean "yes"?
20 A. Where did he tell me? Where did he tell me?
21 He told me in front of the secondary school centre when
22 we arrived, when they took me out into the hallway.
23 That's where he told me.
24 Q. But I'm reading this about the Hotel
25 Zelengora. You tell us that you did not know Zaga, and
1 that Tuta told you that his name was Zaga when he raped
3 A. No, no, I don't remember that. No, no.
4 Q. So that means that what you stated here about
5 the hotel is not correct?
6 A. I don't remember that. Yesterday, you asked
7 me when I learned of Zaga, about Zaga. I learned about
8 Zaga when we came that first evening, when they took
9 out all the women and Tuta took me out and returned
10 me. I was menstruating. He did not rape me he took me
11 back to the corridor and kept me in the corridor. The
12 soldiers came. A lot of soldiers were there, and Tuta
13 said the name Zaga.
14 Q. Very well, let's move on, please. So it is
15 not true that Tuta told you about Zaga in the hotel?
16 A. Not in the hotel but, yes, he did, in the
17 secondary school, and please don't ask me that question
19 Q. Well, Witness, you can't tell me what
20 questions to ask you and what not to ask you.
21 A. Yes, but you have been asking me the same
22 question five times.
23 Q. Well, I'm trying to do my best not to repeat
24 my questions.
25 On page 13 of your statement to the
1 investigators, and it is Defence exhibit P78, it is the
2 first, second, third paragraph, and it says, "When we
3 arrived in the hotel, I saw," the name and surname of
4 an individual, and the initials are -- that is the
5 number is 75, and then the name of another individual
6 and the name of yet a third individual and her number
7 is 95, number 95. Would you take a look at those
8 numbers and tell us whether that is correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. So you say that you found these individuals
11 at the hotel when Zaga brought you there?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. What can you comment to the following, that
14 is to say other witnesses have said, and you refer to
15 those witnesses and they are Number 75 and 95 who say
16 something different to you, that they were never taken
17 to the hotel during their -- taken out to the hotel
18 during their stay at the secondary school and that is
19 page 2297. It is on page 2297, the 17th to the 19th
20 line of the transcript.
21 A. I don't know how far they remembered this.
22 When Zaga brought me, I remember --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,
1 Your Honours.
2 Q. Witness 95 said quite clearly that she was
3 never taken to the hotel, nor that she was ever in the
4 hotel. She made that clear testimony here. Now, what
5 is the truth?
6 A. On the evening that Zaga took me away, I
7 personally found her at the Zelengora Hotel. Whether
8 they had taken her off somewhere else from there, I
9 don't know. But I found her among the soldiers in the
10 hotel as well as Number 75.
11 What happened to them after the hotel,
12 whether they were taken away somewhere else, I don't
13 know. But the essential point is, and I remember this
14 quite clear, that I found them there when I got there.
15 Q. Very well. That means that they were not
16 telling the truth then when they testified.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: No, counsel, that can't be the
18 conclusion, and you can't tell this witness that. Each
19 witness is speaking for themselves. And you know the
20 problems of eyesight, fear, distress and things like
21 that so don't put that to this witness.
22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I asked
23 whether they were telling the truth. I mean it wasn't
24 my conclusion, Your Honour. I wanted this reaction of
25 mine to be in terms of whether these witnesses were
1 telling the truth. Not --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: You can make an observation but
3 you can't ask the witness to answer that question. You
4 don't put it to the witness as a question, you can make
5 an observation as counsel.
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well,
7 Your Honour.
8 Q. Yesterday, you said that Gojko took you to a
9 house in Aladza and that Zelenovic came and that they
10 talked a little boy into raping you?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Were there any other cases when they forced
13 this boy to rape you?
14 A. No, it was just this one case.
15 Q. Are you sure that it was Jankovic and
17 A. Yes. Yes. I was sure it was Zelja
18 Zelenovic, nicknamed Vojvoda, Duke, I'm sure.
19 Q. Very well. Yesterday, you said that Gojko
20 took you to a house near the bus station. You claim
21 that he took you with 95 and 105. Kunarac came and
22 raped you in a room. Are you still claiming on this
23 very day it is so?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you describe this room to us?
1 A. I don't remember. I don't remember the
2 room. What the room was like and what was in the
3 room. The important thing was that there were some
4 kind of couches or beds or whatever. I don't
6 Q. Can you remember where this house was,
7 exactly, in which part, if we look at the bus station?
8 A. This was above the bus station in the first
9 street above, above the bus station.
10 Q. As far as I know, the market is the first
11 street above the bus station in Foca?
12 A. No, no. The bus station is up there and then
13 there is these small houses that were there. That's
14 not the market. The market is further up.
15 Q. Did you describe this incident to the
16 investigators when you made your statement in 1995?
17 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.
18 Q. What can you say if I state that there are
19 other witness statements that are contrary to your own
20 and you said that they were not in this house?
21 A. I think that they cannot say that they were
22 not in the house; if they were-- house -- I mean
23 according to every possible rule, they should say that
24 they were there if they were there. As far as I
25 remember, as far as I remember, they were there.
1 Q. Yesterday, you said that Zaga took you to a
2 house in Donje Polje?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us how he took you there?
5 A. By car. Which car it was, I have no idea
7 Q. Do you remember the colour of the car?
8 A. No, no way.
9 Q. Do you know where Zaga took you from to this
10 house in Donje Polje?
11 A. I don't remember that either.
12 Q. Was there someone else with you?
13 A. I think that that time there was no one
15 Q. Was there someone with Zaga?
16 A. With Zaga there were two men, but they did
17 not rape me.
18 Q. Did he take you directly to Donje Polje or
19 did you stop somewhere along the road?
20 A. No. No, not as far as I can remember. I
21 don't remember that we stopped anywhere on the way, but
22 he took me to Donje Polje.
23 Q. So it is your assertion that he took only
24 you, and that there were these two other men, and that
25 he took you to Donje Polje; is that right?
1 A. Yes. Yes. That is my recollection.
2 Q. Did you tell the investigators of the
3 Tribunal -- I'm referring to D47 now, page 3. Below
4 the word "Donje Polje" this is the following: "I was
5 taken to two different houses in Donje Polje. One had
6 been burned. I remember that even the furniture was
7 partially burned, especially a couch. That's where I
8 saw Zaga.
9 "On one occasion, Zaga took me there, with
10 FS, FWS-90, and FWS-75, and he raped me there. At that
11 place, I was gang-raped. Zaga was one of the
12 participants. One of the soldiers present there was a
13 16-year-old boy. Zaga told him that he should rape me
14 but the boy refused. I remember that before I fainted,
15 I was raped by about six men, among whom was Zaga."
16 Is that the statement you made to the
17 investigators of the Tribunal in 1998?
18 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.
19 Q. You mention here a 16-year-old boy.
20 Actually, today you mentioned a 16-year-old boy, that
21 they forced him to rape you, that it was Zelja Jankovic
22 who forced him.
23 A. But that was in Aladza.
24 Q. I asked you whether there were other cases of
25 this kind, that they forced the boy.
1 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. I can't
3 Q. Is it still your assertion, until the present
4 day, that FWS-90 and FWS-75 were with you in Donje
6 A. Yes, yes, because they brought them there
7 after they brought me. We were there together.
8 Q. What can you tell me, in view of my assertion
9 that there are pieces of evidence that are contrary to
10 what you are saying now, that these witnesses actually
11 were never with you at that house?
12 A. I don't know how they can say that they were
13 not there when they were there. I cannot understand
14 that. When we returned to the sports hall, we were all
15 black from the dust and the soot in the house that was
16 burned down.
17 Q. Can you remember how you described this
18 incident the first time?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Yesterday, you said that you met Gagovic in
21 1987, when you were changing your passport and your ID
22 card; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. I don't know whether it was 1977 or
24 whether it was 1978, but the important thing is that
25 this was around that time.
1 Q. All right. So are you saying that in 1977 or
2 1978 Gagovic worked at the police station?
3 A. Well, I think he did. I think he did. He
4 was younger then. I think so.
5 Q. Can you describe Gagovic for us?
6 A. Yes, of course I can. He was a man of medium
7 height. He had brown hair.
8 Q. Did he have thick hair?
9 A. Well, that I don't know. I'm not very
10 knowledgeable in these matters, whether somebody has
11 thick hair or thin hair. I wasn't staring at his
13 Q. Did he have any characteristic marks?
14 A. Yes. He had a card or whatever, some kind of
15 a sign on his shoulder or whatever.
16 Q. No, but on his face. Was there something on
17 his face?
18 A. No. I didn't see anything on his face.
19 Q. Yesterday you said that Gagovic raped you; is
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes, it's correct. Not once but three times
22 at that, at the same time.
23 Q. So in one day three times?
24 A. Yes, in one day three times.
25 Q. Can you tell us where this happened, in which
2 A. Yes, I can, but which apartment this was or
3 which apartment building it was, that I do not
4 remember. The important thing was that he told me that
5 I had to go to the MUP to make a statement to him, and
6 I asked him what kind of statement, and he said, "When
7 you come, you will see."
8 Q. You told us that, and I'm putting a concrete
9 question to you, and please give me a concrete answer
10 so that we don't waste any time.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you tell us in which neighbourhood this
13 house was, in which part of Foca?
14 A. I don't, to tell you the truth. I don't know
15 myself. It was above of Partizan, across the road. He
16 took us through a street. I don't know which part this
17 is in. It was above Partizan, perhaps two little
18 streets further off. Which particular part this was, I
19 don't know.
20 Q. Was this a private house or was it an
21 apartment building?
22 A. No, this was a private apartment. It was a
23 Muslim apartment. I noticed quite a few things that
24 showed that this was a Muslim apartment. He had the
25 key. He unlocked the door.
1 Q. Please, did this house have several
3 A. Yes. Yes, of course it did. Yes. It was an
4 apartment. There were three doors, one next to
5 another. I remember when we went out to the stairway
6 that there were three doors, about three apartments.
7 Q. How many apartments were there approximately
8 in that house?
9 A. I don't know. It was an apartment building.
10 How many apartments there were, I don't know. I wasn't
11 counting at the time how many there were. It didn't
12 even cross my mind. I was so frightened, why would I
13 count apartments?
14 Q. Can you tell us how many floors this
15 apartment building had?
16 A. No, I don't know. I don't remember that
17 either. I was so afraid, I don't remember. I saw that
18 he was taking me someplace bad and that there was
19 something wrong about this.
20 Q. Did the house have an elevator?
21 A. No. No. We walked upstairs.
22 Q. On page 23 of your statement, you said that
23 Gagovic's penis had been circumcised; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know about circumcision, that it is
1 only Muslims who are circumcised?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did Zaga have anything characteristic on
5 A. No. No, I didn't notice anything.
6 Q. Did you notice that he had a big scar on his
7 stomach because he had had abdominal surgery?
8 A. No. No. I don't remember that.
9 Q. My last question would be the following: You
10 said that Zaga took four girls from Partizan.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was this after the Aladza mosque was
14 A. I think it was before the mosque was
15 destroyed. Four were taken away. One was returned,
16 three were not returned.
17 Q. How come you know this was before the Aladza
18 mosque was destroyed?
19 A. Well, I think it was. I think it was,
20 because, I don't know, 10 or 12 -- I don't know how
21 much time had elapsed since these girls left Partizan.
22 Q. Can you tell me how you can tell?
23 A. I don't know how to tell you this, how come I
24 know. I just know that they were not there at that
25 time. Then one of them returned. One of these girls
1 returned and three did not return. They never went
3 Q. Were you in Partizan, perhaps, when
4 journalists came?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. Can you describe this moment to us?
7 A. Yes, I can describe this moment. I was
8 between my two children at that point. I was sitting
9 down. A woman journalist came. They asked about the
10 food and whether there was proper hygiene and whether
11 there was any possibility for that. I didn't walk up
12 to them. I don't know the woman's name. As for me, I
13 never walked up to her.
14 Q. Can you describe this woman to us?
15 A. Well, I don't remember. I think she had
16 blonde hair and that she had put it up. I don't
17 remember her name. I don't know. Considering all my
18 pain, I did not really think about who this woman was
19 and why he came and what she looked like.
20 Q. Do you remember who talked to her that day?
21 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. She
22 asked these women -- she asked these older women who
23 talked to her and who said what. I don't know. I
24 don't remember any of this.
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] That would
1 be all, Your Honours. If I may just have a minute to
2 consult with my colleagues, please.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, go ahead.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Did the female journalist come to the
7 Partizan before the mosque was destroyed?
8 A. I don't remember whether it was before or
9 after. I really don't remember.
10 Q. Did journalists happen to come to the school
11 when you were in the school?
12 A. I don't remember. I absolutely do not
13 remember whether journalists came to us while we were
14 in the school.
15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is all,
16 Your Honours. I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?
18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I
19 have no questions.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?
21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
22 Honour, we do have several questions for this witness.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
25 Q. Good morning, madam.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. I should start off by asking you one thing.
3 Regardless of how many statements you gave and who you
4 gave them to -- that's not important -- did anybody
5 ever tell you that you, when coming here to testify,
6 that you would have to answer questions?
7 A. Yes, of course they did. And I always tell
8 the truth, and I stand by that, that I will answer
9 questions, that I will talk here, that I will tell the
10 truth, the truth.
11 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'm interested in
12 knowing the following: The statements that we have
13 received from our learned colleagues of the
14 Prosecution, all those papers, all these documents, we
15 have read through them so many times that we have
16 practically learnt them off by heart. Now, I'm
17 interested in certain points, and I'm going to ask you
18 about them now.
19 After all the painful experiences that you
20 had in the period before you gave statements or not,
21 did you talk to anybody close to you, people who had
22 experienced similar things?
23 A. No. No, because I didn't have an opportunity
24 to talk to anybody, particularly my own relations.
25 Nobody wanted to hear my story because they knew. They
1 knew what had happened. They knew what was going on.
2 My first husband did not want to hear me tell what had
3 happened to me, because he knew from day one what had
4 happened to me as soon as the Serbian army had took us
6 Q. Madam, please. We know of at least two
7 people who have been mentioned here as witnesses and
8 whom you talked to, and that's why I'm asking you the
9 question, because you went through a great deal, and I
10 assume that you must have talked about it to someone.
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Very well. I'm a little surprised by
13 something in your statements, in all these statements.
14 There is something that surprises me. It doesn't
15 matter if you accept them or not, but I am going to
16 refer to what has been admitted into evidence, and it
17 is P78, the document -- that is your statement of
18 1995. And you gave that statement over a period of
19 three or four days, I believe.
20 What I'm surprised about here is that some
21 details, some facts I just cannot believe, whether you
22 have this power of -- keen power of observation or -- I
23 really don't understand.
24 A. No.
25 Q. What "No"? What do you mean "No"?
1 A. I don't remember any of that.
2 Q. Well, I accept that. I'm going to ask you
3 questions, and you give us answers. I think you're
4 giving me an answer in advance, before I've actually
5 asked the question, but never mind.
6 For example, on that particular morning when
7 the Serbs attacked you, it was early morning, was it
8 not? Was it early in the morning?
9 A. Yes, it was. It was 5.00 a.m.
10 Q. Uh-huh. Five o'clock. Well, some of the
11 witnesses that testified here said that it was a foggy
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I assume that when the shooting started in
15 the woods that this was terrible for you.
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. When I read your statement, in that portion
18 everything follows a certain logical pattern and
19 sequence, and then I come across a piece of
20 information, a piece of data where you say, for
21 example, that you noticed that the soldiers weren't
22 combed properly, and that sort of surprises me. It's a
23 little strange, a little surprising that you should
24 have noticed that in a situation of that kind, or that
25 you noticed that each and every one of them is carrying
1 a knife.
2 Or let's take another example. Yesterday,
3 you said to my learned colleagues of the Prosecution --
4 you clarified what you meant by the number of Serb
5 soldiers. Three hundred and eighty is a very strange
6 number again to have stated. If you had said 200, 300,
7 500, a round number, that would have been different,
8 but 380, that is rather a specific number.
9 Then the Serbs take you prisoner and they
10 take you off. Did they capture you in the woods?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. Do you remember how far away, that is to say,
13 how far you had gone into the woods before you emerged
14 out onto the clearing, onto the meadow?
15 A. We hadn't gone deep into the woods, maybe
16 50 or 60 metres. Of course, I didn't measure the
17 distance, but we weren't deep in the forest. It was
18 just one side, one hill, and then we -- they forced us
19 out onto this clearing, into the clearing.
20 Q. When you were captured in the woods and when
21 they took you towards this meadow, do you happen to
22 remember whether you went straight? You didn't go left
23 and right, meander?
24 A. Well, yes, we did go left to right, we
25 couldn't go in a straight line because it's a forest so
1 you have to make some turnings and so on. We were
2 carrying our children, the elderly women who were
3 injured couldn't go straight on. We couldn't -- head
4 straight for the meadow.
5 Q. Perhaps you didn't understand me. I was
6 probably -- probably wasn't clear enough. I didn't
7 mean that you went in a straight line, but what I meant
8 was you took the shortest route?
9 A. Well, yes, of course, the shortest route
10 which took us to the meadow. Yes, that's what I meant.
11 Q. You identify 21 individuals who were killed.
12 I then understand this to mean that the bodies were
13 sort of lined up there for you to see them all?
14 A. No. The bodies were all over the woods. One
15 here, one there, scattered around the woods. And when,
16 we were walking, we would pass by dead bodies. The
17 seven who were killed.
18 Q. No, never mind we'll come to that later. I
19 was just interested in the 21 bodies that were found.
20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would
21 now like to call upon the usher's assistance.
22 I have been -- my colleagues tell me that the
23 207 document is in front of you, the usher tells me.
24 If you turn to page two of the document, I think that
25 under number two, you will be able to read out a name
1 and a number and I'm talking about this document here.
2 It is Exhibit 207.
3 Your Honour, my colleagues have cautioned me
4 of the time. It seems to be 11.00.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: It's just getting on to 11.00.
6 We shall have a break until 1130 hours.
7 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, you are
10 cross examining the witness. Please continue.
11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
12 Your Honour.
13 Q. Madam, I think that we skipped over your
14 answer to my question about the details that were for
15 me a little strange in your statements. Can you
16 comment on that, please? Can you tell me anything
17 about that?
18 A. Would you repeat the question, please?
19 Q. Yes, I shall do so. I was interested in
20 knowing how come these strange details. I don't want
21 to repeat myself and go through them again, but I was
22 interested in the number of the -- the exact number of
23 people, the hairdos of the people who attacked you.
24 There is another one that I failed to mention
25 and ask you about, and that is the following: You said
1 that after you were captured, that Janko Janjic
2 questioned you on the meadow immediately?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And that at that time, he had a knife which
5 he put -- stuck into a tree trunk.
6 A. Yes, it was in the woods.
7 Q. In the woods, I see. As far as I was able to
8 understand, your husband and one of your children
9 succeeded in escaping; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Perhaps there is a mistake in the
12 translation, but if there isn't, then I find it strange
13 that you said that Janko Janjic threatened you by
14 saying that he would hurt your child, the child who had
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. But if I understand you correctly, then you
18 had two of your children with you?
19 A. Yes. One was a girl, my girl, and the other
20 was my small boy. And the third child had escaped with
21 his father to the woods, and he stayed in the woods.
22 And he threatened to harm the child that he couldn't
23 get at.
24 Q. Very well. Let's get to the question that we
25 were discussing before the break. Would you please
1 take the list which is Exhibit 207 and on the other
2 page, turn to the second page of that list. There is a
3 name next to number 62. Have a look at that, please.
4 I think that that is on your left-hand side. I'm not
5 quite sure but I think it's the document to your
7 THE INTERPRETER: To your right. The
8 interpreter apologises.
9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Page two?
11 A. Yes. 62.
12 Q. That's right. You know the individual marked
13 with number 62?
14 A. Yes, I know her well, a relation of mine.
15 Q. Very well. Among the people who you
16 identified as having been victims on that occasion, I
17 should like to ask my learned colleagues and members of
18 the Trial Chamber, because that particular individual
19 who I want to ask about, we assume that she is -- that
20 the person is dead?
21 A. No, not this person.
22 Q. The husband of this individual?
23 A. Yes, that's right. Her husband is dead.
24 Q. And you identified him on the occasion?
25 A. That was in Buk Bijela.
1 Q. There is a slight difference between what you
2 say now and what we have in Exhibit 78 because you
3 mentioned 21 people whom you have identified --
4 identified positively, made a positive identification.
5 Now, can you decide where that actually happened?
6 A. Well, all these were people, were our local
7 people who died in the village and that individual --
8 Q. May I please ask you one thing before I let
9 you continue, and you shall be able to continue.
10 The individuals that you mention here, this
11 list of names, and you say that you identified them
12 when you were attacked on the 3rd of July?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Are they people who were killed on that
15 occasion or are they people whom you know were killed
16 in the overall event?
17 A. I think that these people, that is to say
18 people I saw personally and all these people lost their
19 lives on that day, and I know this for a fact, at the
20 hands of the Serbian soldiers. But I didn't see them
21 with my own eyes. I didn't see all these 20 odd people
22 with my own eyes.
23 Q. Very well. My next question concerns Buk
24 Bijela and the events that took place there. Do you
25 know, that is to say, on that same page, the last but
1 one name, number 88, is under number 88?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Were you with that person in Buk Bijela?
4 A. Yes, I was. We were all there together.
5 Q. Let me now ask you this: Did you, perhaps,
6 spend most of your time in Buk Bijela with that
7 particular individual?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On that occasion, did anybody, and if they
10 did and you remember who, did they come and bring you
11 some food for you, for the children?
12 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.
13 Q. Very well. My learned colleague asked you
14 this, but I should like to clarify the question, and it
15 was related to Mr. Gagovic.
16 As far as I was able to follow, you said you
17 got to know him at the end of the 1970s when you went
18 to get some documents issued in the SUP.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you happen to know how long that
21 individual had been working in the SUP?
22 A. I don't remember. I don't remember when he
23 was -- how long he had been employed there.
24 Q. Well, if I tell you that that individual
25 started working in SUP after 1990 and had never worked
1 in SUP before that, would you think that was possible?
2 A. Well, I don't know. I saw him there at that
3 particular time. When he became employed there, I
4 don't know. I'm not sure.
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. If I understood you
6 correctly yesterday, the street in which your brother
7 lived in Foca, in the part of Foca which is called
8 Aladza, the Aladza district, and perhaps I got you
9 wrong but was it Osman Djikica Street?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were there apartment buildings in that street
12 or ordinary family homes?
13 A. No, they were family homes. That particular
14 alleyway had the family-type house.
15 Q. You said that a certain Zoran Vukovic lived
16 nearby your brother.
17 A. He lived at Livade and that was fairly close
18 to Aladza, the Aladza district.
19 Q. Do you happen to remember whether he lived in
20 this type of -- family-type house?
21 A. I don't remember I don't know whether he
22 lived in an apartment or a private family home, I don't
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
25 those were my questions, but may I have a minute to
1 consult with my colleagues, please?
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 I have no further questions, Your Honour,
5 thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination by the
8 MS. KUO: Very briefly, Your Honour.
9 Re-examined by Ms. Kuo:
10 Q. Witness, you were asked some questions about
11 the husband of 62 and how he died that day. Do you
12 know how he was -- how he died?
13 A. Well, I remember. That man was in our group
14 and two soldiers came by and took him away and they
15 told him that he had to make a statement of some kind,
16 and they took him off towards the Drina. You know,
17 it's the Drina River. That's what it's called. And it
18 was below the workers' barracks.
19 They took him down there. Perhaps they
20 stayed there, I don't know exactly, but perhaps 20
21 minutes to half an hour. And then a shot was heard
22 down there.
23 The two soldiers returned. One went around
24 this way, around the barracks, the other the other way,
25 and one of the soldiers said, "The balija's got away.
1 Fuck his mother." As if he had escaped. But in fact,
2 all trace of him was lost.
3 Q. Was this while you were at Buk Bijela?
4 A. Yes. Yes. We were all in Buk Bijela
5 standing there, lined up with our children. And when
6 we were still there when they returned and when they
7 said what they did. From what they said, it would
8 appear that he had escaped, he said, "The balija's got
9 away. Fuck his mother."
10 Q. You were also asked some questions about the
11 food that you got at the high school. The food that
12 you got at Partizan, was it the same, better or worse?
13 A. Worse, worse. It was awful in Partizan. The
14 soup was rancid. We wouldn't get food for two days in
15 a row. The children would cry. They were hungry
16 sometimes we'd get some macaroni left over from the
17 soldiers. As for Partizan the food was awful.
18 Q. Now, I'm going to draw your attention to the
19 statement that you were shown that was given in Novi
20 Pazar and that was marked Defence Exhibit 52. Do you
21 see it in front of you? It's the statement that's very
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher please assist.
24 MS. KUO:
25 Q. On that date, which is August 15th, 1992, did
1 anybody speak to you individually and ask you
2 specifically what happened to you or was it in a
4 A. I don't remember that individual. We were on
5 a meadow together in a group that day when we arrived.
6 I don't remember. When I was giving these statements,
7 I was in pain. I was sad. I was shattered
8 psychologically. I do not remember having made such a
10 Q. Was anything read back to you for you to
11 check regarding its accuracy, on that day?
12 A. Yes, they did read things back to me, but I
13 don't remember. I don't remember. After all of this,
14 I do not remember.
15 Q. On that day, were you asked to make a full
16 and complete statement of everything that happened to
18 A. No. No. I was not asked. Nobody asked me
19 to make a statement.
20 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to draw your attention
21 to Defence Exhibit D48, and that is the one that has
22 the letterhead "Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency, State
23 Commission for Obtaining Facts About War Crimes." Do
24 you see that? That is dated 29th August, 1995. Do you
25 remember a woman coming and speaking to you at the
1 refugee camp in Germany?
2 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. As for
3 the names that are here, the names of war criminals, I
4 did not know the names of all these persons anyway. I
5 just remember the names of some persons. I do not
6 remember the names of all Serb soldiers. I don't
7 remember having made this kind of a statement. It's
8 not that I would know how to list all these names. I
9 didn't know all these people's names. Out of all these
10 soldiers, I just remembered a few names, and I know
11 just a few names.
12 Q. Did you write a statement yourself that day
13 or did somebody else write down what they believed you
14 said to them?
15 A. No. No, I didn't. I don't remember having
16 written this or having been able to write it.
17 Q. Do you recall being asked whether -- I'm
18 sorry. Were you asked at all to give a complete
19 statement of everything that happened to you on that
20 day? If you remember.
21 A. I don't remember. I just remember when I
22 gave the statement from the first day to the last day.
23 That I remember. When Tej came to see me, I gave that
24 statement from the first day to the last day, and it is
25 with pain that I made this statement.
1 Q. So that was the only statement you gave to
2 anyone in which you tried to make it as complete as
3 possible; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And finally, making reference to Defence
6 Exhibit D47 -- and for the Court's convenience, I'll
7 refer to paragraph number 4 -- and this is -- these are
8 the notes of the investigator that were made during a
9 visit to you on September 24, 1998, and that was after
10 Mr. Kunarac was arrested or was brought to The Hague.
11 At that time, did you tell the investigators
12 from the Tribunal that you had already given a long
13 statement to the Tribunal when you were still in Berlin
14 and that you remembered the details quite well, but
15 that afterwards, after you gave that statement, you
16 suffered from a stroke, and that since that time you
17 were forgetting details? Do you remember saying that
18 in 1998?
19 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, I remember.
20 Q. When did you have that stroke? Do you
22 A. I think this was the beginning of 1993.
23 After all of this, I had a stroke, and then I tried to
24 kill myself. I had a nervous condition, and then after
25 all of that, I had a stroke.
1 Q. But did something happen between the time you
2 gave the statement in 1995 and the time that you spoke
3 again to the Tribunal investigators in 1998 that caused
4 you to forget some of the details?
5 A. Well, most probably, yes. Of course, I could
6 not remember from 1992 onwards. I could not have
7 remembered everything. Of course something could have
8 been changed. After all this pain, everything I
9 experienced, my wounds, of course things could have
10 been changed.
11 Q. This stroke that you made reference to, is
12 that the same instance that you described to us
13 yesterday, when you had a brain haemorrhage and were in
14 the hospital?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. KUO: No further questions from the
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, before you leave, I
19 want to bring it to the attention of Mr. Prodanovic and
20 all counsel that I think we have received a document
21 from the Victim and Witnesses Section support officer
22 detailing the height of this witness as 174
24 Can we have is it marked, Madam Registrar?
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. It will
1 be marked as D54, under seal.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: And you want it, of course,
3 into evidence, Mr. Prodanovic?
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
5 Honour. That's why I asked.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So it will be
7 admitted into evidence under the same number, under
9 Thank you very much, Witness, for giving your
10 evidence to the Tribunal. You're now free. You can
12 Can the usher please assist the witness.
13 Mr. Prodanovic?
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
15 before the next witness comes -- we're just going to
16 wait for this witness to leave.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
21 before the next witness comes, the Defence would like
22 to clarify a legal issue.
23 May I remind you that my learned friend the
24 Prosecutor, on the 3rd of April, transcript page 1432,
25 asked to give up on Counts 14, 15, 16, 17 of the
1 indictment, and this was allowed by the Trial Chamber.
2 I'm interested in the following: Does this
3 withdrawal mean that only these particular counts are
4 being withdrawn, whereas the actual facts concerned
6 Let me be clearer on this point. For
7 example, there is a fact. There is action described
8 under 9.1 and 9.2. Does it mean that these facts are
9 being withdrawn as well or only the actual counts?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Any comments from the
11 Prosecution? What's your response?
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. We
13 weren't given any notice of this application,
14 obviously, but as I recall it, what we did was we
15 withdrew the counts themselves. That doesn't mean that
16 we're changing the facts at all as alleged in 9.1 and
17 9.2. It's just, as I see it, we're not asking for the
18 Court to consider this as a charge because, if I
19 remember correctly, it was as a result of 101 not being
20 available to us as a witness.
21 Having considered that, we were -- rightly or
22 wrongly, we formed the impression that we could no
23 longer proceed with those particular counts that I
24 enumerated. So the counts are withdrawn.
25 I also anticipate that we will not be leading
1 evidence contained in 9.1 and 9.2, but that is not to
2 say that some witness might not refer to the event. We
3 can't change facts. We can only change our reliance of
4 what we're asking the Court to do with the facts in
5 relation to whether or not the accused are in jeopardy
6 on those counts.
7 That's about as clear as I can be. It may
8 not be clear enough.
9 JUDGE HUNT: It's not very clear to me,
10 frankly. Certainly the material pleaded in paragraphs
11 9.1 and 9.2, so far as they rely on FWS-101, you won't
12 be leading the evidence.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct.
14 JUDGE HUNT: But in 9.1, there's a reference
15 to two other nominated witnesses, 186 and 191. Are
16 those facts pleaded in relation to any of the other
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, they are.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Whereabouts?
20 MR. RYNEVELD: May I just -- my colleagues
21 have got the pages marked, so ...
22 Yes. If I might just draw everyone's
23 attention to page 12 of that document. That would be
24 Counts 18 through 21. We talk there about -- at
25 paragraph 10.1, et cetera, about what happened to
1 FWS-186, 191, JG, AND if you refer back to 9.1, the
2 allegations under 9.1, until the last sentence, are
3 relevant with respect to what goes on in Counts 18 to
4 21. So we are not withdrawing 9.1 and 9.2. What I'm
5 saying is that we cannot rely on that last sentence in
6 9.1 which refers to FWS-101, for example, 9.1, because
7 we are withdrawing the charges from Counts 14 through
9 JUDGE HUNT: It's not very cleanly done, if I
10 may say so, because Counts 18 to 21 are stated by
11 paragraph 10.4 to rely on the facts dated in paragraphs
12 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3. It's not very clear.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: At the time it was drafted, of
14 course, we anticipated that this was a narration of the
15 entire event. When you then withdraw a particular
16 count -- I might say that 9.1, 9.2, et cetera, is part
17 of developing the narrative of the entire event. We
18 particularise, at 10.1 and 10.2, with respect to the
19 particulars about 186 and 191. However, the background
20 starts at 9.1 and 9.2, which includes 101. Perfect
21 drafting after the fact. When you start removing
22 something --
23 JUDGE HUNT: Nobody would suggest that the
24 Prosecution is guilty of perfect pleading in any of its
25 indictments, if I may say so, with all due respect, but
1 that's another matter.
2 So we can then remove only the last sentence
3 of 9.1, the whole of 9.2; is that right?
4 MR. RYNEVELD: That's correct.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: You've understood,
6 Mr. Prodanovic, which paragraphs? The last sentence of
7 9.1, the whole of 9.2 only, together with Count 14, 15,
8 16, 17, as previously ordered.
9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: While I am on my feet and
13 while we are dealing with legal issues, I understand
14 that my friend has filed -- I just received it this
15 morning -- a confidential additional Defence motion to
16 grant protective measures for Defence witnesses
17 referring to what appears to be an omission. If that
18 is something that you wish to hear from us now, the
19 Prosecution has no objection, should you be asking our
20 position with respect to this matter, to this
21 additional motion to amend the redaction issue that
22 you've already ruled upon.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Trial Chamber's
24 decision will be distributed. It will be in writing
25 and it will be distributed.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. We would call
2 Witness 185 at this point. And I'm told that it may
3 take a couple of moments because this witness requires
4 both voice and image alteration. Hopefully someone is
5 taking care of that while we've been talking.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] That's
7 right. Yes. We need some ten minutes in order to set
8 up the voice alteration device. So I suggest we have a
9 ten-minute break.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We shall take a
11 ten-minute break, and please inform us when everything
12 is ready.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.10 p.m.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 WITNESS: WITNESS 185
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness.
19 Please make your solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Witness. Please sit
25 Mr. Ryneveld.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 With the usher's help, before you leave, will
3 you please give the witness a copy of what should be
4 marked as Exhibit 208, please, for identification.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: And also for admission.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, please.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: So we will have 208 admitted.
8 Could we have the formal numbering, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is
10 Exhibit P208, which is admitted under seal.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
12 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
13 Q. Now, Witness, as I've explained to you
14 earlier, we are going to try to keep names -- try to
15 avoid the use of names, so people have been assigned
16 numbers. I'm going to ask you to look at this piece of
17 paper in front of you. Do you see your name on the
18 first line of Exhibit 208?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And next to your name is the number 185; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Underneath your name in smaller letters,
24 there is a date. Is that your birth date?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Underneath that line, there is a name of an
2 individual without a number. Was that the name of your
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the next line down has the name of
6 another individual with hyphens around the same last
7 name as yours with the number 186. Is that the name of
8 your youngest daughter?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And finally on that same piece of paper,
11 there is another name with the word -- I'm sorry,
12 another name with the number followed by 190. That is
13 the name of a person who you will be referring to later
14 on in the course of your evidence; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: This has now been marked as
17 Exhibit 208, I understand.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Under seal, yes.
19 MR. RYNEVELD:
20 Q. Witness, I understand that you were married
21 and moved with your husband to the Gacko municipality,
22 and you and your husband had some six children; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The youngest of those children is the
1 individual referred to as number 186 on that sheet
2 beside you, and she was born in 1976; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So at the time of the outbreak of the war,
5 how old would your youngest daughter have been?
6 A. 15 going on 16.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, before we go into the
8 evidence, I'm going to ask you, did you give an
9 interview to investigators from the Tribunal on the 9th
10 of May, 1998?
11 A. Yes, I did, but I do not remember the date.
12 Q. You recall an incident where two people from
13 the Tribunal came and had an interview with you; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you are aware that they reduced that
17 conversation that you had with them to writing?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you ever asked to sign that document
20 once it had been reduced to writing?
21 A. I never signed a document for anyone. It's
22 not that somebody interrogated me or something, but I
23 did not give any interviews to any other person except
24 for the Tribunal.
25 Q. So the only interview, if I understand you
1 correctly, the only interview you gave was to two
2 people from the Tribunal who had a conversation with
3 you and took notes of what you said to them; is that
5 A. Yes, yes, yes. That's right.
6 Q. Prior to coming to court today to give
7 evidence, have you had an opportunity to read the notes
8 of what those people took during the conversation they
9 had with you in 1998?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And after reading that paper writing,
12 consisting of some three pages, did you make some
13 corrections to the notes that were made of the
15 A. Yes, yes. There were some mistakes, so they
16 were rectified.
17 Q. And by "rectified", does that mean that you
18 indicated that to someone who spoke your language and
19 also informed me of the changes you wanted to make to
20 the piece of paper that was shown to you?
21 A. I just corrected that which was incorrect.
22 The names of various persons that I know. These
23 persons who were victims and these persons who attacked
24 us. Their names were not written down correctly.
25 Q. And, for example, did you make a correction
1 with respect to your date of birth?
2 A. No, that is correct.
3 Q. The date of birth that I have given, that I
4 have shown you on Exhibit 208, that is your correct
5 birth date?
6 A. Yes, that's it. Yes, yes, on this piece of
7 paper, yes. Yes, this is my date of birth.
8 Q. When you read the transcript of what people
9 wrote down as a result of their interview with you,
10 there was a date -- a birth date on that document. Did
11 you make a correction to that which resulted in your
12 birth date now being the 15th of January, 1937?
13 A. Yes, we corrected that. Perhaps at some
14 point I was not aware of the date of birth I gave, but
15 if something is wrong, I have a birth certificate that
16 was issued a long, long time ago. But this is my date
17 of birth.
18 Q. No, Witness, I don't wish to confuse you. I
19 just want to point out the kinds of corrections that
20 you would have made in the discussions when you
21 reviewed this document. One of those, for example, was
22 your date of birth; is that correct?
23 A. I don't remember what he said in terms of my
24 date of birth, but I just know that this here is my
25 date of birth, the 15th of January. Perhaps I was a
1 bit confused. I don't know.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't wish to belabour the
3 point, but perhaps might the witness be shown what has
4 been tendered as Exhibit 89 in the documents, please.
5 We'll need the B/C/S version for the
7 MR. RYNEVELD: For the Court's information, I
8 am aware the witness has not signed this document. I
9 just want to bring this to her attention.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: The B/C/S version and the
11 English one or which one?
12 MR. RYNEVELD: The B/C/S version is what I
13 would like the witness to see.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: And is that the one which is
15 not signed?
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Neither are signed since these
17 are interviewer's notes. What I have attempted to
18 establish is the fact that the witness was shown this
19 document, has reviewed this document, and has made
20 corrections to this document.
21 Q. Now, Witness, do you see the first line in
22 the first paragraph. You indicate when you were born
23 and where?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And is the date on the document that you are
1 now being shown your correct birth date?
2 A. Correct, correct. It is correct my date of
4 JUDGE MUMBA: She's looking at the B/C/S,
5 isn't she?
6 A. No, no. I was born on the 15th of January.
7 I do apologise. I made a mistake. I was born on the
8 15th of January, 1937.
9 MR. RYNEVELD:
10 Q. I understand that, Witness, but does the
11 document show a different month and did you correct
13 A. Yes, yes. I corrected it because it was not
14 correct. My correct date --
15 Q. Moving on. Now, Witness, I understand that
16 you and your family lived in a small community near
17 Gacko called Ravne; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You and your husband and your six children
20 lived in that community for a period of time?
21 A. Yes, I always lived in Ravne with my husband.
22 Q. And how far away was that from Gacko?
23 A. Perhaps about 15 kilometres away.
24 Q. By the time the war broke out, Witness, how
25 many of your six children were still living at home?
1 A. Only one.
2 Q. And was that your youngest daughter, number
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The village that you lived in, was it
6 ethnically mixed or was it made up largely of one
8 A. Only one ethnicity.
9 Q. Which was that?
10 A. Muslims.
11 Q. How many people would you estimate lived in
12 your village?
13 A. Only 19 of us were there when the war broke
14 out. More had lived there before, but during the
15 winter, they would move into cities and then they would
16 come during the summer to till their land so when the
17 war broke out, there were only 19 of us.
18 Q. Did the people who normally moved there to
19 till their land, did they not show up?
20 A. They did not show up. Only one of them got
21 out from Gacko and then returned after a day or two
22 only. He did not dare stay, and the others didn't come
23 at all.
24 Q. Were there other Muslim communities
25 immediately in the area of your village?
1 A. Yes. Vratnica and Dobro Polje. That's near
2 the road close to Fojnica.
3 Q. And were there other villages that were
4 largely Serb in ethnicity?
5 A. Yes, yes. All the rest were Serb villages
6 all around us.
7 Q. Prior to 1992, what were the relations like
8 between you and your Serb neighbours?
9 A. In 1992, after these parties had won, they
10 weren't all that great. But before the war, we lived
11 like brothers.
12 Q. Did something happen to change that
14 A. Well, I don't know what else could have
15 happened; the war. After the parties had won, there
16 was different behaviour all over. They started arming
17 themselves immediately. They didn't want to meet with
18 us anymore. They were evading us.
19 Q. The community that you lived in, when did war
20 break out for you, your community?
21 A. In our village, the war started on the 29th
22 of June.
23 Q. I take it that's 1992 we're talking about?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you aware that the war had started in
1 other communities prior to the 29th of June, 1992?
2 A. Yes, yes, yes. I was aware of it.
3 Q. Tell us about what you know of that.
4 A. The attack on our village?
5 Q. No, I'm talking about the outbreak of war in
6 neighbouring communities, let's say in Foca
8 A. I'm not from Foca.
9 Q. I'm aware of that. Were you aware of the
10 outbreak of hostilities or war in other parts of
12 A. Yes, yes, I know when the war broke out in
13 Foca and Gacko. I saw this on the news. I saw Foca in
14 flames. Our people could not broadcast this, but it
15 was shown on CNN. We watched that too.
16 Q. The fact that you were aware of what was
17 going on in other communities how, if at all, did that
18 affect the way you and your neighbours felt about your
19 safety or security?
20 A. As for our neighbours, these Serbs, they came
21 to see us. They said that we should not be afraid of
22 them. However, we did not believe that. We went out
23 to hide. We were hiding for about a month and a half
24 until the conflict broke out.
25 I left home on the 28th, on Vidovdan, the
1 holiday of Vidovdan , the Serb holiday of Vidovdan.
2 They probably didn't want to attack us on that day.
3 We were hiding in this forest which is called
4 Ljute [phoen], in our parts, and I woke up at some
5 point. I listened to the news. I had a little radio.
6 I heard a gunshot in our village, Gornje Ravne. I woke
7 up my people to tell them about it, and it's as if they
8 disbelieved it they said, "Well, whatever."
9 As we were hiding, I heard the barking of
10 dogs. Again, I alerted them to that and they said,
11 "No." They said it was the wolves that were coming to
12 chase the sheep. And they all went back to sleep and I
13 just heard the voice of a woman who had remained at
14 home, and I heard her say where we were.
15 I got all the people who were around me.
16 They were all in a hurry then. It wasn't too far away
17 from this house. So everybody fled to wherever they
18 could. They were shooting after us immediately and
19 there were voices saying, "Don't shoot. Catch them
21 My husband said that he would come with us
22 and I said to him, "Just run away. I don't want to
23 watch you being slaughtered." So that was it.
24 Six of us were in a small valley, a small
25 depression of a sort. We were hiding in the bushes.
1 We didn't even manage to pull our bags into this
2 depression. All our clothes had remained there. We
3 remained silent.
4 A neighbour appeared in front of us and he
5 shouted, "Get out, Ustasa." He swore at our mothers.
6 He said he wanted to slaughter us. And then they were
7 searching. We were silent we heard what they were
8 saying they were all our neighbours.
9 That was the first attack. Then they went a
10 bit further off. They were looking for us in another
12 And this one person who was hiding with us,
13 my brother-in-law, he started getting out. And we
14 started pulling him back in. We said, "Don't, you'll
15 betray you us." And he didn't pay any attention to
16 this so we don't know what happened to him. We
17 couldn't see where he got out.
18 Q. Yes. That's all right.
19 I'm going to go through some of this area in
20 some detail with you, but before we do, I wanted to
21 clarify a few things. I believe you initially
22 indicated that you took us directly to the 28th. Are
23 you talking about the 28th of June? Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I just want to establish --
1 A. The 29th. The 29th. The 29th of June.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. When we were attacked.
4 Q. And prior to that, do I understand that you
5 had been living or hiding in the woods or in the bushes
6 for about a month or a month and a half?
7 A. Yes. That's what I said.
8 Q. And I'm just going to back you up. Did
9 anything happen before the attack in terms of the Serbs
10 coming for weapons?
11 A. Yes. Yes. They did come for the weapons.
12 And on one occasion we wanted to leave the village, and
13 we had some food and livestock, but they didn't let us
14 leave. So we had to go back. There were soldiers
15 there. They didn't want to take our weapons away
16 because we had permits for them, and mostly they were
17 hunting rifles.
18 So we returned, and perhaps several days went
19 by, and then they came. That is to say, one morning we
20 had come back and we were going to have a cup of
21 coffee, and we heard some voices, a man calling his son
22 to surrender, that nothing would happen to him, and
23 when we looked, we saw that our village was all
24 blocked, one man next to another. And the
25 anti-aircraft guns were out, and Popic was there. I
1 don't know his first name.
2 My husband and I sort of hid a little bit
3 when we saw this mass of people. And he put the rifle
4 in a cupboard, and he left the rifle and started to
5 walk towards them.
6 A man who came, a Muslim, who came to
7 criticise them for not informing us that they had come
8 to take away weapons, and my husband went to get the
9 rifle where he had left it, and a man from Dobro Polje,
10 a Serb, went up to him, and he took the rifle and gave
11 it to them. And then they made my husband go to the
12 houses, the houses that were locked up because the
13 owners were not there. And so we had this rifle, and
14 they knocked the door down and searched but didn't find
15 anything. And when they took away the weapons, they
16 said, "Well, now you don't have to be afraid of
17 anything," when they searched the house. "Nobody will
18 harm you." And then they left.
19 Perhaps this went on for several more days.
20 I don't know exactly how long before we were attacked,
21 but we were not attacked by anybody else, just our
22 neighbours. And these three people would always say
23 that we shouldn't be afraid of them, that we could go
24 to their village to sleep, and that in Ljute we would
25 be bitten by snakes and that we would catch cold, but
1 we didn't dare go to them.
2 Then this attack took place, and then we had
3 to hide ourselves as best we could, and we dispersed.
4 We gathered around.
5 Q. Just so I'm clear about what you've told us
6 in some greater detail, when you say your neighbours
7 came, were these Muslim or Serb neighbours who came to
8 collect weapons?
9 A. It was the Serb army. There were not a few
10 of them, it was all the village, Donji and Gornje. All
11 this was blocked. There might have been perhaps as
12 many as 500 people there, standing one next to the
13 other, and there were these anti-aircraft guns, and
14 there were only 19 of us.
15 Q. And these soldiers, were they in uniform?
16 A. Some of them were; some of them weren't.
17 Because I know them. I know the people. I don't want
18 to say where they came from, but I knew quite a number
19 of them, the ones that came. They were a little
20 further off from Gacko and so on, but I knew them. And
21 I asked them, "Why are you doing this? What do you
22 need this for?" And they said, "If this Zolja fires at
23 your house, your house will be destroyed straight
24 away," and I didn't know what a Zolja was.
25 Q. How old was your husband at the time when
1 they came to collect his hunting rifle?
2 A. I don't know. Perhaps he was 64, getting on
3 to 65. I don't know the exact -- his exact age.
4 Q. He was beyond military-service age, I take
6 A. Yes. Yes, he was. He had done his military
7 service. And they never even called him up for a
8 reservist, to be a reservist after that ever.
9 Q. So he was not in the military at the time of
10 1992, nor did he have any military weapons?
11 A. No. No.
12 Q. After they came to collect weapons, how long
13 was it after that would you say that your village was
15 A. Well, I couldn't say exactly. Perhaps three
16 or four days. Not more than that. I couldn't tell you
18 Q. The attack took place, I understand -- you've
19 told us some details of the attack -- in the early
20 morning hours of the 29th of June 1992; is that
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. You've also told us about how it was you were
24 alerted and how you reported your findings to your
25 family, and they didn't appear to believe you at the
1 time; is that correct?
2 A. How do you mean "warned"?
3 Q. You told someone. I may have misunderstood
4 you, but I thought you alerted someone to the fact that
5 you heard voices and dogs barking, and you were
6 concerned about something happening outside; is that
8 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. I was awake, and I
9 heard this going on, first of all, the shooting at
10 Gornje Ravne and then Donji Ravne. And there were two
11 married couples who stayed on in the house. They took
12 out one woman and asked her about us. I've already
13 said that. And she said that we were in Ljuta.
14 And I just heard somebody shout, "What are we
15 going to do with them?" The other man said, "Kill them
16 immediately." And we never heard any voices after
18 Q. How many people were with you in the woods
19 when the attack occurred?
20 A. Well, there were 15 of us, because four
21 stayed in the house.
22 Q. Tell us how the attack took place and who you
23 saw doing what.
24 A. I have already said that they attacked us,
25 that we were in this depression, that we had gone away
1 there and that we could see everything that they were
2 doing. And these four married couples that remained,
3 they shut themselves up in a barn, and they set fire to
4 them. Then they --
5 Q. Sorry, who are "they"? Who is it that set
6 fire to them and who came? Were those soldiers or
7 civilians or-- tell us.
8 A. I only saw our neighbours from the village of
9 Domerka [phoen] before. I knew all these people. They
10 were my neighbours. They were my kums. We had kum
11 relations with them, best man, godfather, that sort of
12 thing, and those were the people.
13 Q. Were they Serbs or Muslims?
14 A. Serbs.
15 Q. Were they in uniform or in civilian
17 A. Only three of them. They were in the Serb
18 police force.
19 Q. Now, you say you heard shots earlier. Was
20 there any shooting going on when these people were
21 attacking the group of you?
22 A. They started shooting from the village
23 because they noticed, as it was already daylight --
24 they saw them running away, escaping. And two young
25 men fled to one side, my husband and two other girls
1 went along the road leading to Fojnica, and they saw
2 this happening, and they started shooting at them. So
3 they shot. These people were not killed, but one of
4 them said, "Don't shoot them, catch them alive."
5 And they succeeded in hiding. Two of the
6 young men walked around and wandered off towards
7 Dabar [phoen] and didn't -- and then returned to our
8 own village, having spent three or four days wandering
9 around the forest. One woman with her two daughters
10 hid for two days, that is to say, with one daughter and
11 with another woman who was burnt and her daughter, and
12 she went to Gacko. And they saw her in Gacko, and then
13 they told her to return to Ravne, that she should say
14 where we were. But she didn't know where we were,
15 because we had scattered all over the place. And she
16 didn't want to tell them. Then they went off towards
17 Macedonia, and we went towards Borac.
18 Q. I'm going to try to bring you back to the
19 29th of June in particular. You are now hiding in a
20 depression in the bushes, and you can see a lot of the
21 things that you've just told us about.
22 You've told us that four married couples hid
23 in a shed or a barn; is that correct? Could you see
25 A. No. No. No. They were in the house. They
1 stayed in the house. They were sleeping. They weren't
2 hiding. No, they didn't go with us to hide, because
3 they said, allegedly, that they were not frightened.
4 Q. All right. Then I misunderstood what you
5 said. You indicated, at some point in your evidence,
6 that they, and I take it that was the Serb neighbours
7 you're talking about, set fire to some enclosure in
8 which these people were. Can you tell us how you know
10 A. No.
11 Q. Is this something --
12 A. No, I --
13 Q. Go ahead. Go ahead.
14 A. I heard, when that woman whom they had taken
15 out, when they said they would kill them, and one of
16 them asked, "What are we going to do with them?" The
17 other one said, "Kill them all off." Then they took
18 them to the barn belonging to a man. And when they set
19 light to our houses, they set light to that too. And
20 we learnt that they had been set fire to. And the SFOR
21 went there with our people, and they found some bones
22 in that barn in which they were burnt.
23 Q. All right. You indicated that you had told
24 your husband to escape; is that correct? Did you see
25 him leave?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Was he alone or was someone with him?
3 A. He went behind this one woman who survived,
4 and then they separated. He went to one side; the
5 woman went to the other side. Then they didn't see
6 each other any more.
7 Q. At some point, did you lose sight of your
9 A. No. When I got into this bush, he left, and
10 I hid in a bush with my daughter and with my
11 neighbours, and we couldn't see anything after that.
12 But the people who worked there, who attacked us,
13 walking around, talking, we could hear them and see
15 Q. After this incident where your husband left,
16 have you ever, to this day, seen your husband again?
17 A. Never.
18 Q. You told us that you and your youngest
19 daughter and some neighbours were hiding in this
20 depression near the bushes. How many of you were
22 A. There were five of us, because the sixth
23 person who was with us, he went out. He left. We
24 didn't hear where he was killed or what happened, but
25 just those people behind us who would have a rest
1 behind us, we heard a man moaning, but we were
2 helpless. We didn't dare raise our heads. And then
3 they killed him, and he's buried underneath -- below a
4 house belonging to another man. They have just
5 found -- they found him and then he was taken to Mostar
6 to be buried.
7 Q. While you were hiding with these other
8 people, were you discovered that day by the soldiers
9 who were looking for you?
10 A. No. Had they discovered us, they would have
11 killed us like they killed the others.
12 Q. How long did you remain in hiding?
13 A. Well, we remained in hiding until the
14 morning. Perhaps it was half past four in the morning
15 or a little earlier. Until 10.00 in the evening, when
16 it got really dark.
17 Q. Then what did you do?
18 A. Then we started off towards Borac, and we
19 went towards Borac. One woman couldn't endure this
20 journey, and she stayed at Vucevo and she returned.
21 And they caught her and mistreated her, but they didn't
22 kill her. And she returned. She had her house in
23 Gacko, in town. By bus she went. And she went to the
24 house to get something from it, because they saw that
25 the people were being gathered up and were being sent
1 to Macedonia. And a woman came after her and made her
2 go back, and she went off to Macedonia, and she now
3 lives in the same place I do.
4 Q. All right. Don't tell us what that is. In
5 any event as you were leaving --
6 A. No. No, I won't.
7 Q. Thank you. As you were leaving to go to this
8 place that you've mentioned, could you see what was
9 happening to your village of Ravne?
10 A. Well, our village had burnt down, down to the
11 ground. Everything had been burnt down to the ground.
12 Q. How long did it take you to get to this place
13 that you were heading?
14 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but I know from
15 10.00 in the evening, we kept going and arrived at
16 noon. We might have reached that before had we not
17 left the road. And there's a big mountain. And then
18 we saw a man on the road, and we thought that it was a
19 guard because the Serb army had all this area under its
20 control. And we thought this might be a guard. And
21 there was this one road leading to Borac, and we saw a
22 man on road, but he had his back turned to us. Then we
23 went behind him and went off the road and found
24 ourselves faced with a big mountain facing the Neretva
1 Q. Well, eventually you got to your destination;
2 is that correct? And was that destination Ulog?
3 A. We got to Borac, and we wanted to meet up
4 with some other people.
5 Q. Yes. I understand you met a number of other
6 people. Is that right?
7 A. Yes. We spent the night in a house owned by
8 a relative of mine and her aunt. There were just some
9 elderly women there, some eight elderly women, and we
10 spent the night there.
11 So I don't know when I arrived at that
12 woman's house, because when I got up in the morning, I
13 asked this relative of mine, this sister-in-law when we
14 arrived, and she said, "Well, take your time, get your
15 bearings, and we'll talk about it." So then she told
16 me actually when we arrived, what time it was.
17 And we spent the night there and waited for
18 nightfall again, because there were refugees from the
19 Drina area, I think. I think that was them. And then
20 they went off, and we went off with them. So that we
21 spend the whole night --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, can you ask the
23 witness questions in which you elicit the evidence
24 leading to what the Prosecution intends to prove
25 through this witness concerning the charges? She's
1 giving so many details which are not relevant.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: I am aware of that, and if you
3 note, my last question was: "Eventually you arrived at
4 a particular location," and then the witness gives
5 detail. I'm reluctant to interrupt the witness, but
6 perhaps I ought to.
7 JUDGE HUNT: It really is a question of
8 style, I suppose, but you may have noticed that your
9 colleagues ask them questions which elicit short
10 answers. If you just say, "What happened next," and
11 then you say later, "I want to back up and I want to
12 ask you further detail about that," not only do you get
13 an awful lot of irrelevant material, but it is very
14 difficult to follow. If you could just ask the
15 questions which will direct the witness to what it is
16 you need to know, and when that answer has been given,
17 you ask the next question. It would save us all a
18 considerable amount of time and would make it very much
19 easier for all of us to understand.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine, Your Honour. I'll do
22 Q. Witness, as I understand it, you joined a
23 group of other women and children and ended up at a
24 place called Ulog; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. That's correct. We came to Ulog and
1 the menfolk had left, and the women and children had
2 stayed on. And we arrived at a Muslim village and we
3 spent some time there.
4 Two soldiers turned up. Actually, one of
5 them introduced himself as being a teacher and told us
6 to surrender and that he can guarantee that nobody will
7 harm us, because our children were exhausted from the
8 journey. And so he said that the children could rest
9 up a bit. And we agreed to that.
10 We went back. There's a bridge there and we
11 crossed the bridge once, and then returned and went out
12 on to the road where we saw a lot of soldiers wearing
13 military uniforms.
14 Then they actually did bring some bread for
15 the children and some jam; bread and jam for the
16 children which the children ate. And then they
17 gathered us up and loaded us up into trucks and we went
18 there. But it was not the Yugoslav army in the trucks,
19 it was the Chetniks who transported us to the school,
20 and that's where we were. We spent a night there.
21 That first night they took a note of our
22 names. They registered us and we spent the next night
23 there too and they separated the men.
24 Women over the age of 55 could leave and take
25 their children with them if they had daughters, for
1 example, like I did myself. But I was not able to take
2 my child away because my daughter-in-law was there with
3 her three children and I felt it -- and it was
4 difficult for me to leave her so we all went together
5 and were transferred to Kalinovik.
6 Q. Witness, I'm getting slightly more detail
7 than I had hoped with my question. Might I just ask
8 you: Were you captured at Ulog and were you
9 transported -- I take it you mentioned a school, do you
10 know where that school was?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you tell us?
13 A. Well, that first school was in Ulog. We
14 first arrived at the school in Ulog and spent two
15 nights there and were then transferred to the school in
17 Q. Thank you. And how were you transported to
18 the school in Kalinovik and by whom, was it by soldiers
19 or -- tell us?
20 A. No, I didn't see any soldiers. I just saw
21 men with beards and with some cloths, a cloth around
22 their forehead. They transferred us to Kalinovik and
23 we arrived there at dusk.
24 There were no lights. They divided us up,
25 distributed us in the different rooms. They gave us
1 some sort of mattresses but they were old ones, all
2 torn and worn. But that's what they gave us. And then
3 we were put up there in the morning.
4 Q. These men that you refer to as wearing cloths
5 around their head, is that what you mean when you say
7 A. Well, yes.
8 Q. Do you know whether these individuals were
9 Muslim or Serb or some other ethnicity?
10 A. They were Serbs.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's 1.00 now.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall adjourn for our lunch
14 break and continue with the proceedings in the
15 afternoon at 1430 hours.
16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Examination-in-chief is
19 continuing by the Prosecution.
20 MR. RYNEVELD:
21 Q. Witness, when you got to the school in
22 Kalinovik, could you tell from anything that there had
23 been a previous group of people there before you and if
24 so, how?
25 A. It said so on the desk. There were 67 of us
1 there and who was there, I have no idea.
2 Q. When you say it said so on the desk was it
3 written in pen and paper or was it -- how was it
4 communicated to you?
5 A. It was like carved, carved in the desk where
6 pupils sit.
7 Q. Where were you detained in the school?
8 A. I was in the classroom.
9 Q. How many of you were detained in that same
11 A. There were perhaps 35 of us.
12 Q. Was your youngest daughter, number 186 among
13 that group with you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How long were you in that classroom?
16 A. Two months, perhaps a day less. I don't know
18 Q. Were you free to come and go or were there
20 A. We always had guards but it wasn't that
21 dangerous. They would let us go out. For example, a
22 mother could leave her child behind if she would go out
23 to buy something for the child. Perhaps it was that
24 way for about 20 days.
25 Q. Why did a mother have to leave her child
2 A. Well, they wouldn't let the child leave. If
3 the mother was going out shopping, then the child would
4 have to remain behind.
5 Q. Why?
6 A. Well, they wouldn't allow it. They probably
7 didn't want the mother to escape and to take the child
8 with her.
9 Q. Did you have beds?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How did you sleep?
12 A. They gave us some very old mattresses. They
13 were very old. They were infested with lice. That's
14 where we slept.
15 Q. How about food, was there sufficient?
16 A. Well, at first they did give us two meals.
17 In all fairness, there wasn't a lot, but it was good
18 because we could buy things as well. Afterwards, I
19 think -- I don't know.
20 Some time before August, they didn't give us
21 food anymore. They didn't allow us to go out, nothing.
22 Q. You said you could buy things, did you have
23 money to buy things?
24 A. We had Yugoslav dinars because that's the
25 currency we used. However, these guards of ours had
1 Serb money. That was a different kind of money, and
2 then we would exchange it and they would let us buy
4 Q. While you were detained, were you questioned
5 or interrogated?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know whether others who were detained
8 with you were questioned or interrogated?
9 A. Yes. A woman was taken out and then the
10 children were asked where their parents were, where
11 their fathers were. And then every one of these women
12 tried to give answers to the best of their knowledge,
13 but it wasn't that women from my room were particularly
14 singled out for interrogation and taken out. That was
15 not the case.
16 Q. Do you know whether any men were taken out
17 and questioned?
18 A. Yes. There was a man from our parts.
19 Q. By "our parts", what do you mean? A man
20 detained in another classroom in the Kalinovik school
21 or a man from your area of where you lived, in your
23 A. This man was from Gacko. He was from Gacko
24 and he was with us in the school. He was detained.
25 Q. And what do you know happened to him?
1 A. He was taken out for interrogation. He was
2 forced to write where the husbands of the women who
3 were in the camp were. He refused to do so. Then they
4 beat him. Then they would let him go for a few days.
5 Then they would take him again.
6 Once they took him that way and they never
7 returned him again.
8 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
9 A. I think he was killed.
10 Q. Why do you think that?
11 A. When they were giving food out to us, the
12 guard would separate some food for him. One morning,
13 he said that there was no need to separate food for him
14 any longer because he had been killed.
15 Q. Do you know about other incidents of other
16 men being taken away and interrogated?
17 A. I don't know. There were others too, four, I
18 think, from Kalinovik. That's what they said. The
19 guard would take food to them also. They said that
20 there were four more of them, but I don't know these
21 men. They were allegedly from Kalinovik.
22 Q. Was there an incident where you were told to
23 stay away from the windows and you chose to look
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What did you see?
2 A. Yes. When the guard told us that they had
3 been killed, we were ordered not to be at the windows
4 for 15 minutes and not to go out.
5 Half of the windows were covered anyway, but
6 we tried to peek, nevertheless. We saw a vehicle in
7 front of the school, and we saw them carrying bodies
8 wrapped in blankets and loading them on to this vehicle
9 and when this was over. They said, "Now you can go
11 Q. Do you know when this occurred, was there an
12 incident that you can relate it to?
13 A. I don't know exactly. Our children were
14 taken away. I was in shock. This was after our
15 children were taken away. Perhaps a day or two later.
16 Q. I'd like you to turn your mind now to the
17 date that your children were taken away when you say
18 "our children". Do you remember the day it was that
19 your daughter, number 186, was taken away?
20 A. She was taken away on the 2nd of August.
21 Q. That's 1992, I take it?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Is there anything special about the 2nd of
24 August, 1992, is it a special day of any kind?
25 A. It's like a holiday, both the Serb and a
1 Muslim holiday. We celebrate it in our own way, and
2 they celebrate it in their way. We call it Alidza and
3 the Serbs call it Ilinden.
4 Q. How, and in what circumstances, was your
5 daughter taken away? Please tell us what happened.
2 A. On the 2nd of August, they came at dusk.
3 Night had just started to fall. You could not see very
4 well because we never had lights. They entered through
5 the door. I was sleeping near the door, together with
6 my daughter. There were two other girls opposite us.
7 And they said, "You get up, and you two get up as
8 well." We remained silent, and they started hollering,
9 "Get up. Get up."
10 My little girl got up. I got up after that
11 too. They grabbed her. This one man grabbed her. He
12 grabbed her and I grabbed her, and there was this
13 tug-of-war. And I was begging him, "Son, may God have
14 mercy on you. Please don't take this child away from
15 me. She's the only thing I've got." But he was
16 pulling at her anyway, and I started crying in the
17 hallway when she was grabbed out and taken out. And I
18 said, "Brother, please don't take her out. There's
19 only the two of us. There's no one else for me." And
20 that was it.
21 Then a guard put a pistol on my temple. He
22 swore. He cursed my mother. He said, "What are you
23 trying to do? That's what we're going to do to all of
24 you. We're going to kill all of you." Then he threw
25 me back into the room. We were peeking again. And I
1 think it was a red car that took her away and took them
2 away. They put them into that car and they left.
3 Q. Now, how many people came to take your
4 daughter away?
5 A. I saw the one who was pulling her, and there
6 were two guards as well. I can't remember. It was all
7 dark before my eyes then. I can't remember.
8 Q. How many people were taken away?
9 A. What do you mean "people"? Are you talking
10 about girls or men?
11 Q. Well, you said they took them away. You said
12 your daughter was taken. Were there other people taken
13 as well as your daughter?
14 A. Yes, another girl. Another girl.
15 Q. Do you see her number on the --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Yes. Go ahead.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What's her number?
20 A. Her number is 190.
21 Q. Could you see the person that you were having
22 a tug-of-war with, who took your daughter from you?
23 A. Perhaps, but I couldn't see this person
24 properly. I was crying so hard. I was begging him. I
25 really wasn't looking very carefully.
1 Q. How many girls or women were taken away at
2 that time, do you know?
3 A. Five.
4 Q. Did you know all of the people or the girls
5 and women that were taken away?
6 A. I did not.
7 Q. Did you subsequently find out who it was who
8 had taken your daughter away?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How?
11 A. There was a guard. His name was Slavko. His
12 nickname was Ustasha. I cried, and he threatened me
13 every day. He said, "Cry. Fuck your balija mother.
14 You are not aware of who took away your daughter. Zaga
15 doesn't kill with a knife, he kills with a Zaga." And
16 once I asked him, "What is 'Zaga'? What does this
17 mean? Is it a name or is it a nickname?" And he said,
18 "You'll find out when you hear that he used a Zaga to
19 tear off her head." Yes. Well, I did find out
20 afterwards when I was exchanged.
21 Q. What did you find out when you were
23 A. Well, I inquired. There were soldiers,
24 Bosnian soldiers in Trnovo, and I asked the soldiers
25 who were in charge could they somehow have an exchange
1 for our children? One was from Foca. He said, "Two of
2 my sisters were taken away, I can't do a thing. And I
3 know the man who took them away." And he said, "It
4 will be all right." So they tried to persuade me that
5 it was so.
6 Q. Were you told who the man was who took away
7 your daughter?
8 A. Yes. Yes. They told me it was some Zarko
9 Kunarac and that his nickname was Zaga.
10 Q. Do you know what "Zaga" means?
11 A. I think it's a nickname.
12 Q. After your daughter was taken away -- you say
13 she was taken away in a red car?
14 A. Yes. As far as I could see through the dark,
15 it seemed to be a red car.
16 Q. Did you see or hear from her again?
17 A. No, never, until there was this exchange.
18 Then also for a long, long time, because I was in
19 foreign country, so I didn't even find out when her
20 exchange was carried out.
21 Q. When did you ultimately meet up with your
22 daughter again?
23 A. 1994.
24 Q. After you met up with your daughter, has she
25 ever told you to this day what happened to her after
1 she was taken away?
2 A. No. On one occasion, I tried to talk to her
3 to ask her. She just burst into tears, and she said,
4 "Mommy, never ask me this again," and I never asked.
5 Q. After your daughter was taken away, did you
6 make any inquiries from any of the guards or any other
7 people as to what had happened to your daughter?
8 A. No. I was afraid all the time. This Slavko
9 was terrible. He was terrible. I didn't even ask the
10 others, because he threatened me every day. It wasn't
11 only once. He said this to me every day.
12 Then there was also this other one. I don't
13 remember his name. He was also a participant when they
14 took them away. He had a rifle, and his finger was on
15 the trigger. What was his name? Dusko, I think. I'm
16 not sure.
17 Q. Was there an incident where you were told not
18 to worry about your daughter?
19 A. What do you mean "incident"? Was somebody
20 killed or something?
21 Q. Let me rephrase it. Did any of the guards or
22 soldiers at the school talk to you about your
24 A. The next day, Pero Elez came, and [name
25 redacted] was taken during the day, and when [name
1 redacted] sister was supposed to go, he asked [name
2 redacted], "Where is your sister?" She just looked at
3 him and she said, "She was taken away." He left and
4 then he never returned.
5 Then Jankovic came, but I do not remember
6 which day he came. Whether it was the next day or the
7 day after that, I don't remember. He was brought by a
9 I went out. I went out into the hall. He
10 told me not to cry. He gave me a letter. He said,
11 "Here's a letter. Your daughter sent it to you." I
12 didn't want to take it, because I knew either that she
13 wrote it under pressure or they wrote it. And he said,
14 "Why don't you want to read the letter?" I said that
15 I could not see to read. Then he said that I should
16 send her clothes if I had any. But of course she
17 didn't have any clothes. We escaped from a knife. I
18 didn't have anything, any clothes.
19 A woman gave me a plastic bag, and I put this
20 bit clothing I could into the bag and I took it to the
21 hall, and then this man who took them away was in the
22 hall, but his head was bent, and he put this into some
23 kind of a bag. So I left these things and I went
25 Q. Did you ever read the letter?
1 A. No. No. No, I never even took it.
2 Q. While you were detained, prior to your
3 daughter's being taken away, are you aware whether any
4 women or girls were taken out of the classroom and
5 brought back?
6 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, I knew. They took them
7 out. The children would stay behind. The children
8 would cry.
9 There were two houses, Serb houses, across
10 the road. There were women there, Serb women. A Serb
11 woman allegedly -- that's what she said -- had
12 intervened. She said that she attacked her son, saying
13 that those women should be returned, and indeed, those
14 women were returned.
15 Q. What kind of women were being taken out and
16 by whom?
17 A. I did not see who took them out. It was
18 these paramilitaries. I don't know. These were armed
19 men. They had uniforms. Their heads were covered with
20 some kind of headscarves, some kind of rags on their
21 heads. They took out women, young women, like a young
22 mother of two.
23 Q. Now, my question had been: Prior to your
24 daughter being taken away, were women and children
25 taken out? Now my question is: After your daughter
1 was taken away, did that continue? Were women and
2 children being taken out of the classroom?
3 A. They took these women out after the children
4 were taken away. The women later. I don't remember
5 that they took any other women after that. I was in
6 shock then. I didn't think about this, what they were
7 doing, who they were taking away.
8 Q. Do you know how many girls or women were
9 being taken out?
10 A. No. No. I cannot say. I heard from others,
11 but I don't know exactly.
12 Q. What did you hear from others?
13 A. That there were 17 of them.
14 Q. Was there ever an occasion that you were
15 present when women were raped in the corridor at the
17 A. One. I saw one from my village. She's
18 married. When her daughter-in-law was supposed to go
19 out when this man called out and said, "Come on. Come
20 on out," and the mother-in-law said, "No, no, no.
21 Leave her alone. Take me away." Then they took her
22 out, and then they said, "Well, let's show you why you
23 were taken out."
24 Then there was this guard there too, this
25 other one. I think his name was Dusko. I'm not sure.
1 I think his name is Dusko.
2 Q. And what did you see? What happened to her?
3 A. We saw that they were raping the woman.
4 Everybody bent their heads and fled. What can you do?
5 Q. Who was raping and where was it taking
7 A. In the hall. In the hall as you enter the
8 school, in the first hall.
9 Q. Was there one individual raping this woman or
10 were there more involved?
11 A. There were quite a few of them. I don't know
12 exactly how many. When we saw this for the first time,
13 they said, "You have to watch." We withdrew to the
15 Q. They told you you had to watch?
16 A. Yes. Yes. "So that you could see what will
17 happen to you." That's what they said.
18 Q. I'm sorry to be asking specific questions,
19 but what do you mean when you told us she was raped?
20 A. How shall I put this? The woman was raped
21 and then she was returned to the room.
22 Q. When you say "raped," what part of their body
23 was involved?
24 A. I don't know. When you see someone raping a
25 woman, you're so ashamed, you turn your head away. You
1 have to. And then they force you to watch. And I
2 thought well, whatever. You're so ashamed. I thought,
3 I'm not going to watch even if they kill me. You're
4 simply too ashamed to watch.
5 Q. Was it clear to you that she was being
6 sexually assaulted?
7 A. Of course we saw that.
8 Q. You told us about a woman. Was there also an
9 incident involving a young girl?
10 A. Yes, a little girl. She might have been
11 12 or 13. That's what she seemed like to me. Perhaps
12 she was older. I don't know. That's what she looked
13 like to me. Perhaps this was somewhere around the
14 beginning. We were there about 10 or 15 days. An
15 officer came. He had this uniform. He looked like an
16 officer. There was a blonde woman with him. He took
17 this little girl out one day, and then the next day he
18 took her out again. Then when the little girl was
19 raped, then after that he would come to the rooms and
20 look for gold.
21 The woman who was there with him, she would
22 just give signs with her eyes. Then she was saying who
23 was supposed to undress, to take off their Bosnian
24 pantaloons. And then the women would take off their
25 pantaloons so that it would be obvious that they
1 weren't hiding anything. That's what it was like.
2 Q. How do you know this young girl was raped by
3 this officer? Did you find this out later?
4 A. I found out about that because I went to
5 visit this friend of mine. I went to where they were
6 in the sports hall, and I was not alone. I did not
7 learn it myself alone, but we all learned about it
8 because we were all afraid of that. And then one woman
9 would tell another woman, and that's how we all knew.
10 Q. Do you know who this officer was?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. While you were detained at Kalinovik school,
13 were there a lot of soldiers coming and going?
14 A. Yes, of course there were. There were a lot
15 of them. And there was such a lot of fear. It was
16 worst when they took the girls out. Then this went on
17 all day and all night. It wasn't just for half -- not
18 even half an hour past -- before somebody would come in
19 looking for gold, looking for money.
20 They would take a child and say, "We'll
21 slaughter your child if you don't give us the money,"
22 but we didn't have any. And as soon as that first
23 group came, we gave all we had. We gave all our
24 belongings to that group so when the second group came,
25 they would swear and say, "Well, the first group got
1 away with it all, with all the loot."
2 Q. Were these soldiers that you've referred to
3 in uniform and were they armed?
4 A. Yes, yes. They were all armed to the teeth.
5 Q. Could you tell or did you find out what units
6 these men belonged to or whose men they were or where
7 they came from?
8 A. I don't know. When a group came in they said
9 they were Seselj's men, they said they were Arkan's men
10 and some others said they were Jovic's men so they
11 would ask us," Do you like Arkan's men." And a woman
12 said, "We like all honest people, just let us leave
13 here." And then the soldier took that particular woman
14 out, and I saw that her arm was bandaged but she didn't
15 go out anymore. And that particular woman was from
17 Q. Did you know the Chief of Police of
19 A. Well, he used to come by too, perhaps twice.
20 Q. When he came by, did he come by to take out
21 women or was he there for some other purpose, do you
23 A. No, he didn't take women out. He would come
24 and talk to us. He sort of explained to us all that
25 this had to happen, the war had to happen.
1 We would ask him to let us go, but he talked
2 to us nicely. He wasn't brutal towards us at all. He
3 was quite a normal man and talked to us quite
4 normally. So he didn't take girls out. No, he didn't.
5 Q. Do you remember a female journalist coming to
6 the school?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Do you remember when she came and what she
9 looked like?
10 A. I don't remember. I don't remember what day
11 it was or what date it was. She was blonde. She had a
12 sort of long face. She wasn't very fat. She had a
13 rosy complexion, and she came with two men and they
14 introduced her as a reporter and said that, "If you
15 want to say something to her, you can say something."
16 But we saw immediately that she wasn't a
17 journalist. She didn't look like a journalist at all.
18 And we just kept silent. And they just said, "Talk to
19 her, say something." But we just kept silent.
20 They said, "Well, you'll go to talk to
21 Tudjman, and you'll see what Tudjman is going to do
22 when you get to him." And he swore at us.
23 Q. Did you or the other women speak to her, to
24 your knowledge?
25 A. No, no. No, we didn't. Just these women
1 from Kalinovik. They were up on the floor above, and
2 they came and gave us food. They would bring us food
3 into the hallway, and they would divide that up and
4 they said that they knew this young woman from
5 Kalinovik. And that she thought -- when she saw them,
6 she went away because she thought there were other
7 people, other women from other parts on the floor
9 Q. One more quick question about the
10 journalist. Could you tell whether she was a foreign
11 person or whether she spoke your language?
12 A. No, she spoke our language. And she even
13 sort of threatened us and said she had two brothers who
14 were in the army and if something happened to her
15 brothers, she would come and kill us.
16 Q. Did you recognise either of the two men that
17 she came with?
18 A. No, I didn't, any of them.
19 Q. Were these soldiers or police or civilians or
20 do you know?
21 A. No, they were wearing civilian clothing.
22 Q. You were finally exchanged; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do I understand that that was at the end
25 of August, 1992?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'm coming to the end of my questions. I'm
3 just going to come back to the incident when your
4 daughter was taken away. You told us about having a
5 tug-of-war with the man who took your daughter from
6 you. Do you think that --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you think you would be able to recognise
9 that individual if you were to see him again?
10 A. I don't know. I only saw him picture in the
12 Q. You saw the picture of someone in the papers
13 who looked like the man who took your daughter away; is
14 that what you're saying?
15 A. Yes. It was his name -- it was his picture
16 with his name and surname under it in the papers, yes.
17 Q. What about the picture or the caption did you
18 recognise, was it the name or the face or what?
19 A. No, no. No, I just saw that it said that
20 man. There was a whole article and our journalist had
21 written the article from Sarajevo. And there was the
22 picture of this man.
23 Q. When you saw this report, it had the name of
24 an individual. Was that the name of the person that
25 the guards told you had taken your daughter?
1 A. The guard just told me that it was Zaga, and
2 here it also said under the picture that it was Zarko
3 Kunarac, nicknamed Zaga.
4 Q. Did you also see the photograph?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you saw the name, did you also recognise
7 the face on the photograph attached to that name?
8 A. No, I can't say that, because I just saw his
9 face in the dark and his head was bowed down. And I
10 was also -- my head was bent, and he pulled towards him
11 and I pulled towards me. And he sort of looked smaller
12 to me because he was bending down and pulling.
13 And as I was crying and pleading with him, I
14 said, "Please, son, please don't take my child away."
15 But that was all in vain and I just cried and screamed,
16 and screamed at him, "I have nobody but her." Of all
17 my six children, that was all that was left to me. But
18 it was all in vain. I couldn't do anything. I
19 couldn't make him. He had this heart of stone.
20 Q. Would you look around the courtroom today and
21 tell us whether or not you are able to recognise the
22 gentleman or the man who took your daughter away on the
23 2nd of August, 1992? If so, please tell us. If not,
24 tell us you don't.
25 A. That one there was in the picture. That
1 picture is the one I recognised. And when I came in
2 here, I recognised his face from the picture as well.
3 Q. And when you pointed to that man, looking at
4 the people from left to right seated along the back
5 row, in what position is he, counting from left to
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.
8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
9 the Defence has -- the Defence objects to this manner
10 of identification, especially as the witness had said
11 that she could not see him that evening because she was
12 crying from her tears and everything, and now she
13 recognises him on the basis of a newspaper picture.
14 She decidedly stated that that particular
15 evening, she was not able to recognise that individual
16 nor was she able to perceive the face of the person who
17 had taken away her daughter.
18 And this kind of recognition identification
19 on the basis of a newspaper, I really don't see that
20 that is in order, and we are worried, I'm concerned
21 because of this line of questioning.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: If I might respond. I was
23 very careful to outline the limits or the extent to
24 which the witness was being asked this question. I was
25 very careful to point out that what is it that she
1 recognised; was it the name or the face? She told us
2 she did not recognise the face from the photograph.
3 She now has told us that the face that she
4 recognises from the photograph is the face of an
5 individual she is about to identify. No more, no
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may,
8 Your Honour.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, the Trial Chamber
11 doesn't think that is of any use even asking the
12 witness after her answers to try and identify anybody
13 in this courtroom.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: I appreciate what Your Honour
15 is saying. All I was trying to do for the sake of
16 completeness is to indicate the extent to which the
17 witness knows and what she recognised.
18 She's told us she recognised the name. She
19 then saw a name attached to a face and is now about to
20 tell us that the face in the photograph is that, I take
21 it, of someone in the courtroom.
22 I'm not going to try to extend any matter of
23 evidentiary value to it other than to outline how it is
24 that she recognises this person.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a waste of time, actually.
1 JUDGE HUNT: It's got to have some probative
2 value, surely.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, if it's a matter of
4 weight, I will abandon the questioning. But quite
5 clearly, I was not attempting to identify this
6 witness -- or identify the accused through this
7 witness. I just thought the Court ought to be aware of
8 all of the circumstances under which the accused may
9 have been seen by various individuals. I thought that
10 was my duty to the Court to do that.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Ryneveld, it's not
12 necessary. Please proceed with other questions.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: I'll just check with my
14 colleagues. That had been my last question, but I'll
15 just check to see whether my colleagues have anything
16 else they wish me to ask.
17 Those, indeed, are my questions, thank you.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination.
19 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
20 Q. Witness, good afternoon.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. Today during your testimony you said that you
23 lived in the village of Ravne?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Would you tell us, please, how far the
1 village of Ravne is away from Gacko?
2 A. Well, I never measured it but it's about 15
4 Q. In view of the fact that you mentioned Foca
5 today as well, can you tell us how far Ravne is from
7 A. Well, I don't know. I never measured it, I
8 never went there but I did mention Foca because my
9 child was there for 17 months. She wasn't there for a
10 day or two days, but she spent 17 months there, and I
11 think my mind is quite in order and I saw Foca burning
12 on the television.
13 Q. Madam, I just asked how far it was. If you
14 could tell me that.
15 A. I couldn't say. I'm not a land surveyor.
16 Q. You told me today that there was 17 of you in
17 your village?
18 A. 19.
19 Q. Yes, 19 I apologise. How many houses does
20 your village have?
21 A. Well, I didn't count them. I can give you a
22 picture with all the houses and then you can count them
23 for yourselves.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
25 could I ask the witness to answer the questions asked.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Please, just answer the
2 questions asked by counsel. That's all. We'll waste
3 less time that way.
4 A. Yes. Very well, I shall answer them.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. How many houses does the village have?
7 A. I don't know at the moment, maybe 20. In one
8 part of Ravne except for Donje Ravne.
9 Q. And you lived in Gornje or Donje Ravne?
10 A. I lived in Gornje Ravne.
11 Q. I see. Were there 19 of you in Gornje Ravne?
12 A. No, in both parts of the village.
13 Q. Those 19 of you lived in how many houses?
14 A. Six.
15 Q. Six houses?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So the other houses were not inhabited or
18 were they empty at the time?
19 A. At that time, they were empty.
20 Q. And had they been inhabited up until then?
21 A. No, our people from Ravne had a house in town
22 because their children went to school there or would be
23 employed there. So they would go into town in the
24 winter, and in the summer they would come back to the
25 village and till their land.
1 Q. You said today that you had six children?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that your youngest child was the
4 individual under number 186; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. And the other children are all older; is that
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Did they live together with you in that
11 A. No.
12 Q. They were older than your daughter, weren't
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were they employed?
16 A. Yes, they were.
17 Q. Were they girls or boys?
18 A. I have five daughters and a son.
19 Q. You have one son?
20 A. Yes, one son.
21 Q. You told us that the conflict in your area
22 came after the parties started up?
23 A. Yes, the hatred between us and our
25 Q. And when did this occur in connection with
1 the event that took place on the 29th of June, when was
2 this looking back? How far back was it?
3 A. How do you mean back, how far back?
4 Q. How long before this event did this hatred
5 start up?
6 A. Well, how can I explain that to you? Perhaps
7 six months prior to that there were people who lived --
8 we lived with them like brothers. We were very close,
9 but suddenly they began to act differently than they
10 did before and they even said to us, "We're going to
11 make salad of you." And I don't know what else I can
13 If we went visiting, we wanted to hear
14 whether we could stay there, but if we were to go to my
15 kum, for example, who had coffee with me every day.
16 Then I would go and fetch some water and I saw him
17 tending to the sheep and I would -- wanted to go up to
18 him but he would try and evade this meeting.
19 Q. So you linked this hatred to the appearance
20 of the parties, which parties were they?
21 A. Well the SDS and the SDA parties.
22 Q. Were there any members of the SDA party in
23 your village?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you see members of the SDA?
1 A. How do you mean "see"?
2 Q. Were you a member?
3 A. No, I wasn't.
4 Q. What about your husband?
5 A. No, he wasn't.
6 Q. What about your son?
7 A. No, he wasn't.
8 Q. What about your daughters? Were any of them
10 A. No.
11 Q. In your village or in Gacko, were there any
12 rallies, party rallies of any kind?
13 A. Well, I don't really know. I couldn't say.
14 But I do know when two people were killed. They were
15 killed first, over there by Foca, Vrba or something
16 like that. I don't remember the exact name. But
17 perhaps it was April. And two young men died there.
18 And then I think the Muslims raised themselves up
19 following this, and there was some sort of
20 demonstrations, demonstrating against the fact that
21 people had been killed.
22 Q. Where did this happen, in your village?
23 A. No. That was in Gacko, and these people were
24 Gacko. The whole area is called Gacko, although the
25 town itself was referred to as Metohija. And those
1 were people from the town. One man's name was
2 Poskovic. The other's was Grbo. His mother was a
3 Serb, his father was a Muslim. And that Poskovic went
4 to sell some fruit, went into town to sell fruit. And
5 it was a place behind Gacko where this happened.
6 Q. You told us here today that you were asked by
7 your Serb neighbours to surrender your weapons.
8 A. No, not by our Serb neighbours. Popic came
9 to collect the weapons. He was the police chief in
10 Gacko, and he gathered people to block off Gornji and
11 Donje Ravne. And they came there, men with hand-held
12 rocket launchers, Zoljas, and anti-aircraft guns, and
13 they came.
14 Q. I apologise, witness, but I'm asking you
15 about the surrender of weapons.
16 A. Well, that's it, that day. The weapons were
17 surrendered that day.
18 Q. But that was four or five days before you
19 were attacked you said.
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. Did anybody in your family have any weapons?
22 A. Yes. We had a rifle, but we had a permit for
23 it. We had a permit for ten years.
24 Q. Who did, your husband? What about you? Did
25 you have a weapon of any kind?
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. I'm asking you that because in the notes that
3 you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal, your
4 statement reads as follows and I'm going to read it out
5 to you: "My husband and I and another man had hunting
7 A. Yes, my husband had it. That is to say, all
8 the people living there had this type of rifle. They
9 all had hunting rifles, and these hunting rifles were
10 because of the livestock, because we live in a
11 mountainous area, and it was to look after, to tend to
12 our cattle and livestock.
13 Q. That means that every house had a rifle.
14 A. Yes. Every house had a hunting rifle.
15 Q. And what about other weapons? Were they
16 surrendered on that day?
17 A. We didn't have any other weapons. We
18 surrendered those rifles. Popic took them away with
19 his men.
20 Q. You told us today that you believed your
21 neighbours, the Serbs, because you explained to us that
22 your village was surrounded, or, that is to say, your
23 next-door neighbours were Serbs and that you believed
24 them. Why did you hide for a month and a half before
25 that event?
1 A. No, we did not believe them and that's why we
2 hid them. They wanted us to spend the night in their
3 house, but we didn't believe them and that's why we
5 Q. Why didn't you believe them?
6 A. Well, we didn't. Yes, let her ask. I want
7 her to ask. Let her ask. We didn't believe them. How
8 should we believe them when we knew they would kill
9 us? They were threatening to make salad of us. How
10 could I believe somebody who said that to me?
11 Q. Until that moment when you started to hide,
12 were there any threats by your Serb neighbours?
13 A. Yes. Yes, there were. Five or six months
14 prior to that. They said that they would make salad
15 out of us. We never met any more. We'd run away. I
16 mean they would run away. If I would just go there to
17 ask them what should I do and all that, they'd run
18 away. They'd evade me so that I would not talk to
20 Q. Did you cut off all contacts with your Serb
22 A. Yes, all but three who were in the police.
23 They would come on their regular tours of duty, and
24 that if somebody would come to see us, that we'd have
25 to register it with them that we were not allowed to
1 move about, et cetera.
2 Q. The place where you hid, how far away is that
3 from your home?
4 A. Well, perhaps from my home it's about a
5 kilometre away. But from the lower village, it's just
6 right next to it. There's only a pond between.
7 Q. During the day, would you come home?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So that means that you only went during the
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. On that day when the attack occurred, as you
13 said, that was the morning, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. 3.30?
16 A. What was that?
17 Q. 3.30, is that what you said?
18 A. Well, it could have been 3.30 when I heard
19 the rifle, the gunshot. They probably thought there
20 were men there, whatever. Well I didn't have a watch,
21 you see. It might have been 4.30. That's when the
22 shooting started.
23 Q. When did your husband leave you, then?
24 A. Then. That's when my husband left, when the
25 shooting started.
1 Q. So that was already 3.00 in the morning,
3 A. Perhaps it was 4.30, because first they
4 started shooting in the village. I heard it, and it
5 was about 3.00 or 3.30. And when they started
6 shooting, I woke everybody up. And they said, "Well,
7 let them shoot. It's up there. It's not here." And I
8 said, "No, no, no. It seems to me that it's close to
9 our house." Perhaps they even killed our dog so that
10 it wouldn't bark. They didn't believe me. So they
11 went to bed again.
12 And I sat there with another woman, a friend
13 of mine, and I had a battery operated radio, and I
14 listened to the radio. They fell asleep. And that's
15 where the lower part of the village is, and then the
16 man whose house this is, he said these are the wolves
17 who probably came to get the sheep.
18 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I'll ask
19 you about this, but perhaps we shouldn't take too much
20 time. How many of you remained there when your husband
21 left? How many of you were there?
22 A. Five.
23 Q. That was you and your daughter and ...
24 A. And my brother-in-law and his wife and also
25 this neighbour of mine.
1 Q. Did anybody else leave? I'm referring to
2 your brother-in-law and your neighbour. All of you
3 remained except for your husband?
4 A. No, no, no. Only five of us stayed here, and
5 all the rest fled.
6 Q. Today in your statement you said, during your
7 testimony, that there were -- that was your
8 sister-in-law and three children?
9 A. Yes. Yes, but that was in the camp.
10 Q. Where was this?
11 A. In Kalinovik.
12 Q. And today you said that this was in Ulog,
13 that you all came there together.
14 A. Yes, in Ulog, and Kalinovik, and together we
15 were carried out the exchange and everything, so that's
16 what we did.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, the pause, please,
18 between your questions and the answers and your
19 questions. The interpreters are having a problem.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I try, Your
21 Honour. Thank you.
22 Q. You said that you started withdrawing from
23 that place where you were at dusk and you arrived at
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. At what time was that?
2 A. Perhaps we travelled all night and then
3 perhaps arrived in Borac around noon.
4 Q. What is the predominant population in Borac?
5 A. Muslim.
6 Q. Are there any Serbs there?
7 A. Well, perhaps in some villages, but I don't
8 know, to tell you the truth, because this is another
10 Q. You said to the investigators that there were
11 about 1.000 to 1.500 Muslim women and children.
12 A. And men. And men. We found them in a
13 mountain near Ulog.
14 Q. Here you only said Muslim women and
16 A. Well, men too, yes, all of them who had set
17 off. There were men who were fleeing and also the
18 women and children. And those who were caught were
19 caught and remained in the camp.
20 Q. May I remind you: In your interview with the
21 investigators, you said that when you crossed the
22 bridge, there were military trucks there and soldiers.
23 A. When we returned. When we surrendered. We
24 crossed it once when we surrendered, and then we went
25 back again and then we went out to the road.
1 Q. You said then that: "We were all taken to
2 the school in Ulog on these military trucks."
3 A. Yes. Yes. All of us were taking prisoner.
4 Q. One military man, an officer released the men
5 and let them go?
6 A. Yes. Yes. There were quite a few men
7 there. And he said those who were over 55 could
8 leave. I was that age, and I asked him whether I could
9 leave with my child, and he said I could. However, I
10 could not leave my daughter-in-law and three
11 grandchildren, because my daughter-in-law had sprained
12 her ankle, and I didn't want to leave her.
13 Q. I understand that you did not want to leave
14 because you had nowhere to go. You wanted to go to
15 Ulog to seek shelter there.
16 A. To Ulog? I had places to go to. I could
17 have gone with the people who were released. But I
18 didn't want to leave my daughter-in-law and three
20 Q. Yes. That was my understanding, that you
21 could not leave, that you could not. That you were not
22 free to go.
23 A. Well, I didn't want to go. I was free to go
24 but I did not want to go.
25 Q. How many of you were brought to Ulog?
1 A. I don't know exactly how many. I don't know
2 exactly how many, because quite a few older women had
3 left, and older men, and younger people. I don't know
5 Q. You said that you were in Ulog for two days.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you have any health problems in Ulog?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Let me jog your memory. Did a physician come
10 and did any of the children have dysentery?
11 A. I don't know. My child didn't and my
12 grandchildren didn't. I don't know.
13 Q. The doctor came from Kalinovik, Dr. Cerovic?
14 A. You mean to Ulog? No, I don't know. I don't
15 remember. There were quite a few of us, and we were in
16 different rooms.
17 Q. Was anyone given medical assistance while you
18 were in Kalinovik? Did a doctor come?
19 A. Yes. Yes. There were quite a few women that
20 had blood pressure problems. There was an old woman
21 who had a blood pressure problem, as I do today. There
22 was a doctor who came, accompanied by two soldiers, and
23 the doctor examined this woman and prescribed medicine
24 for her, and there were other women who asked to have
25 their blood pressure measured but the soldiers wouldn't
1 allow that.
2 Q. When you arrived at the school in Kalinovik,
3 you said that you were in a classroom.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How many of were you in this classroom?
6 A. Perhaps 35 of us, until this first group
7 left, and then there were 20 of us who stayed. Two
8 from Nevesinje remained and 20 left.
9 Q. Where was this classroom? Was it downstairs
10 or was it on the upper floor?
11 A. It was downstairs. It was on the ground
13 Q. Were there other people who were in the same
14 situation that you were in on the ground floor in any
15 other classroom?
16 A. Everybody was in the same position that I was
17 in. There was also a gym, and then there was also
18 another small room, probably for teachers. There were
19 school books there and cupboards. That's where they
20 put women with young babies. And we were in the
21 classroom, and then there were others in the gym.
22 Q. Was there another classroom near your
23 classroom where there were women and children?
24 A. No. No, there was no one. There was just a
25 closed room. There was no one in that room. And this
1 cleaning lady or whoever, she would come in and then go
2 out and lock the door again.
3 Q. During your stay in Kalinovik, you said that
4 you elderly women, so to speak -- I do apologise for
5 saying so -- that you were allowed to go out and buy
6 things for children, food and things like that.
7 A. All women who had children could go out. The
8 children would be kept there, and the women, the
9 mothers, would go out to buy whatever was needed while
10 the children remained in school.
11 Q. During your stay in Kalinovik, did anybody
12 physically mistreat you?
13 A. No. No. Only this guard, the one who kept
14 telling me that my daughter had been slaughtered, but
15 it's not that anybody hit me or anything.
16 Q. You also said that there were guards in the
17 school. How many were there?
18 A. Well, they took turns. There were always two
19 of them, but they took turns.
20 Q. You said to us today that there was a guard
21 nicknamed Ustasha who mistreated you.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were there guards who were good and fair to
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. Could you have normal contacts with them and
2 could you ask them what you needed and things like
4 A. Yes. Yes. There were two young men. I
5 don't know their names, and it's not even important. I
6 wouldn't even mention them. They were students,
7 university students, and they said that they were
8 forced to do this. One was on one day, and the other
9 was another day. They would not even bring us food
10 during those days, and then -- he had longish hair, and
11 he'd go out and get us some food, bread, whatever, and
12 then he'd bring it in a paper bag, and he'd give it to
13 us through the window or through the door without
14 anybody else seeing it.
15 I saw two women there. They gave cheese and
16 bread to the children. I'm not going to perjure
17 myself --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter
19 apologises. Could the witness speak into the
20 microphone? We can no longer hear her.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, can you please speak
22 into the microphone so that the interpreters can hear
24 A. Yes I can. I am beside myself, to tell you
25 the truth, and my feet are swollen, and I can't sit
1 this long.
2 All right. So then this woman asked the
3 guard, and he allowed her to bring a glass of milk. So
4 there were good ones.
5 And also there was one whom they found with
6 us, and they almost killed him when they found him with
7 us, I mean those who came to loot and do things like
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I do apologise to you. I understand your
11 situation, but I have to remind you of this date of the
12 2nd of August again, and put a few questions to you.
13 A. Yes. Go ahead.
14 Q. You said that on the 2nd of August, a man
15 walked into the classroom that you were in.
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. You said that you and your daughter were
19 A. Yes. We were not asleep. We were only lying
21 Q. What time could that have been?
22 A. Well, I can't really remember. I think it
23 was at dusk, because we didn't have any lights, and I
24 didn't have a watch, and the windows were covered. So
25 perhaps that made it look even darker.
1 Q. Today you said that there were two guards and
2 one man, or was there only one guard -- I didn't
3 understand you -- and one man?
4 A. There were two guards and there were more of
5 them. Not only one man, there were others too.
6 Q. How many entered the room, the classroom?
7 A. I don't know. I did not count them, and I
8 didn't even think of counting. When they took away my
9 child, I had had enough.
10 Q. From your classroom?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The classroom that you were in, which other
13 girl was taken out except for 190, your daughter?
14 A. Only the two of them.
15 Q. Did you see then at that point that some
16 other girl had been taken out?
17 A. Not from our room. Another one was supposed
18 to be taken out because they said two. However, she
19 took a child. And this child immediately started
20 screaming, "Mommy," and that's how she was rescued.
21 Q. And this man, as you say, who was pulling
22 your daughter and who left your classroom, did he talk
23 to you?
24 A. I don't remember. I don't remember that he
25 talked to me.
1 Q. In the statement that you made to the
2 investigators or, rather, in these notes, you said that
3 you do not know who the man who took [redacted]
4 away is. I know that his name was in the newspapers.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When did you see that newspaper? When did
7 you read it?
8 A. I saw this newspaper as soon as I got out
9 into Croatia and I had some money to buy newspapers
11 Q. How much later was that? After you got out,
12 I mean.
13 A. Perhaps it was three months later. Oh, but
14 it's not that I got those newspapers immediately. It
15 wasn't that this newspaper appeared immediately.
16 Perhaps it was a bit longer after that. When the
17 Bosnian "Ljiljan" newspaper was being published again.
18 Q. Can you tell us what year this was
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. You said also, when you talked to the
22 investigators: "They said that his name was Zaga, but
23 I personally am not aware of that."
24 A. Who? What?
25 Q. You said they said.
1 A. I put it this way: The guard nicknamed
2 Ustasha told me that. He said, "You don't know, fuck
3 your balija mother, who took your daughter away. It's
4 Zaga. He doesn't slaughter with a knife, he slaughters
5 with a Zaga."
6 Then after some time, I asked him, "What does
7 this Zaga mean?" He said, "You will find out what Zaga
8 means. You will know what Zaga means."
9 Q. Do you know this Zaga Kunarac, what his real
10 name is?
11 A. I imagine Zarko. It said Zarko in the
12 newspapers. It said: "Zarko Kunarac, nicknamed
14 Q. This interview with the investigators was
15 conducted on the 9th of May, 1998, right?
16 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
17 Q. Why didn't you say then that the guard
18 nicknamed Ustasha told you that the man who took away
19 your daughter was nicknamed Zaga?
20 A. Well, perhaps I did not think of all of
21 this. I didn't remember all of this. But that's the
22 way it was.
23 Q. You said that Pero Elez came to the school
24 the next day.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you describe Pero Elez to us? What does
2 he look like?
3 A. Well, he's a blonde man, fair, with a long
4 face. Once he had a beard, and the other time it
5 wasn't really as if he had a beard. It was sort of
6 shaven. Well, it wasn't a big beard, it was about this
7 big. He was pretty dark in the face, and he was
8 talking to us and hollering.
9 Q. Could you tell his age?
10 A. No. No, I could not. About 30, 35. I don't
11 know exactly.
12 Q. On that day, on the 2nd or on some other day,
13 a day or two after that, did you hear of the fighting
14 for Rogoj taking place around Kalinovik?
15 A. Yes. Yes, I did hear about that.
16 Q. You told us today that when you were in
17 Kalinovik, that from the classroom, a lot of women were
18 taken out, and you even mentioned 17 to be raped?
19 A. Yes, they would select the women they would
20 take out and the others that they didn't want to take
21 out from the whole school.
22 Q. When was that?
23 A. I don't remember the date. I really don't
24 remember the date.
25 Q. Was it in one day?
1 A. It was in the evening. It was in the
2 evening. Yes, in one day because they would come in,
3 they came into the classroom where I was. One man came
4 in and my daughter-in-law was there. And she had a
5 denture, she had to take out her dentures. And I gave
6 her a shawl to put over her head.
7 Her three little girls cried and he came in
8 front of her. He looked at her, spent some time
9 looking at her. Then when he saw -- he said, "Well we
10 don't need you." So he let her stay.
11 Q. Was that before or after your daughter was
12 taken out?
13 A. That was later.
14 Q. Were any women taken out of your classroom?
15 A. No, one was, but she was a friend of someone
16 called Stana, she was an orthodox woman, she was a
17 girl. And then there was a younger woman whom she was
18 friends with from our room, our classroom.
19 So that she said don't take such and such a
20 person, because a man came in and asked for somebody by
21 name and she got up and then he said, "Sit down." So
22 she probably -- she had probably told him not to take
23 that girl out.
24 Q. Who told you that 17 women had been taken
1 A. Well, we would talk about this amongst
2 ourselves, the women who returned. We would talk
3 amongst ourselves.
4 Q. What did these women tell you?
5 A. Well, the ones that were taken out, we asked
6 them where they had been, where they had -- were
8 Q. And what did they say?
9 A. They said they were taken to Miljevina.
10 Q. How were they taken to Miljevina, did they
11 happen to mention that?
12 A. Well, we saw them being taken out by car.
13 Q. How many cars?
14 A. I don't know. I really didn't go out to see.
15 Q. What colour were these cars?
16 A. I didn't -- I wasn't interested in that. All
17 I was interested in was my child's welfare. I wasn't
18 interested to go and stand by the window and look
20 Q. Well, then did you see it or did you hear it?
21 A. No, I heard about it and then I saw the --
22 the children crying and screaming and then the women
23 would return, the children of the women who had been
24 taken out.
25 Q. And when were they returned?
1 A. They were returned an hour or two later.
2 Q. And how far is Miljevina from Kalinovik?
3 A. I don't know. I never went there.
4 Q. You told us today that the Chief of Police
5 came to visit you in the school building?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. How many times did he come?
8 A. He came twice.
9 Q. You told us that his manner was very proper
10 when he talked to you, and that you talked about the
12 A. Well, he said -- he was very nice, but he
13 said that he didn't know anything about the exchange,
14 but we had a complete -- very proper conversation.
15 Q. Did he come after your daughter had been
16 taken away?
17 A. He came once before, and the second time was
18 when they had been taken away.
19 Q. Did you talk to him and did you tell him that
20 your daughter had been taken out?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what did he say to you?
23 A. He didn't say anything. He said, "I am not a
24 commander of my army."
25 Q. Did you tell him on the occasion how many
1 girls had been taken out?
2 A. Well, he knew this better than I did. He
3 didn't need to tell me to tell him.
4 Q. Do you know whether the other mothers whose
5 children had been taken away had talked to him and
6 complained to him?
7 A. Well, he was in our classroom. Whether he
8 went to another room, I don't know where the others
9 were. He came to see us twice. He brought us
10 cigarettes and that kind of thing.
11 Q. On that occasion, did you tell him that women
12 were being taken out and that they were being taken to
13 Miljevina for rape, as you have just said?
14 A. No, I didn't. I didn't tell him that.
15 Q. Do you know whether any of the other women
16 had said -- told him that?
17 A. No, I don't know. I didn't hear that they
19 Q. You told us that at the end of August, you
20 were exchanged?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Do you happen to know who you were exchanged
23 for, how this exchange came about?
24 A. I don't know that we were exchanged. We were
25 just left -- let -- allowed to go. I don't know that I
1 was actually exchanged for someone. I was just allowed
2 to leave. That's what it was.
3 Q. And how were you taken and where were you
4 taken to?
5 A. Well, it was an army vehicle and we were
6 taken to Dobro Polje. We were escorted by the police,
7 and that's where we got out. They gave us a white flag
8 and said, "Off you go."
9 Q. You told us today that a man from Foca told
10 you that he knew where your daughter was, and that his
11 two sisters had been taken away as well.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where did you meet this man?
14 A. In Trnovo.
15 Q. Was this man from Foca or from Trnovo?
16 A. I think he was from Foca.
17 Q. What is he by way of ethnicity?
18 A. He is a Muslim.
19 Q. Your daughter was exchanged in November,
20 1993, was she not?
21 A. Yes. Well, actually I don't know when she
22 was exchanged. I don't know when she was exchanged. I
23 was abroad and she was exchanged in Bosnia, and I
24 didn't know what had happened to her for a long time.
25 Q. But when did you meet up with her again for
1 the first time?
2 A. In 1994.
3 Q. What was the month?
4 A. Well, just before the new year, several days
5 before the new year.
6 Q. What did your daughter look like?
7 A. Well, she looked fine.
8 Q. Did you notice any physical changes on her?
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
11 may I just take a minute to consult with my
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I
15 have no further questions, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar.
17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I
18 have no questions of this witness.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.
20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
21 Honour, the Vukovic Defence has no questions for this
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,
25 for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You are now
2 THE WITNESS: Thank God for that.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher please assist the
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registry
6 would like to know what is to be done with Prosecution
7 Exhibit 99.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: I have not tendered it into
9 evidence. I just referred to it.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: So it was just marked for
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we are
13 prepared for the next witness. She's waiting here, but
14 some technical things have to be arranged. Especially
15 I think the voice alteration has to be removed, because
16 the witness has been granted to testify in closed
17 session, and the witness still wants to testify in
18 closed session.
19 So I wonder, I mean this alteration will
20 probably need some minutes and then it's 4.00.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Trial Chamber can see
22 that. Because of the technicalities, we will have to
23 adjourn now and the proceedings will continue tomorrow
24 at 0930 hours. I do hope that by then everything will
25 be ready for the witness.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
2 at 3.55 p.m., to be reconvened on
3 Thursday the 4th day of May, 2000, at
4 9.30 a.m.