1 Monday, 15
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. The registrar
6 please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] IT-96-23-T,
8 IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac,
9 Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: We have received a motion by
11 the Prosecution for an additional witness.
12 Mr. Ryneveld.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, indeed. Correct, Your
14 Honour. We have filed, last day, a motion for the
15 Court's consent to add Witness 105 to the list of
16 Prosecution witnesses, and the contents of our motion,
17 I believe, are before you. I do understand that my
18 learned friend may have something to say about that,
19 and if the Court wishes to hear from the Prosecution,
20 I'd ask that Ms. Kuo respond.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: There are some other matters I
23 might also raise.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, after this one.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
1 The Defence. Mr. Prodanovic. On the motion
2 by the Prosecution for an additional witness, FWS-105.
3 Can I hear Mr. Prodanovic first, please, or is there a
4 preliminary problem?
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
6 we agreed that with respect to this motion, my
7 colleague should speak first, but before we say
8 anything about it, we would like to tell the Court that
9 today we have not all been able to come, and my
10 colleagues will say why.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
12 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] I would like to
13 inform the Court, as the co-counsel for the accused
14 Zoran Vukovic, that chief counsel, Goran Jovanovic, was
15 unable to attend today. He was unable to come to The
16 Hague because he had some formal problems about
17 obtaining a Dutch visa in the Embassy of the
18 Netherlands in Belgrade, and I think that this problem
19 should be solved as soon as possible so that
20 Mr. Jovanovic can come here.
21 I would also like to inform the accused Zoran
22 Vukovic of this problem, and he should also say
23 something about this problem.
24 I would also like to say that the witnesses
25 will not be cross-examined as regards Zoran Vukovic
1 until his counsel in chief arrives.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Why? That is why we have
3 co-counsel. The co-counsel is to take over whenever
4 the chief counsel fails to do so for any reason. That
5 is why you are here as co-counsel. You're supposed to
6 take over. Why should we wait for cross-examination by
7 Mr. Jovanovic?
8 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] I understand
9 this, Your Honour, but the accused Zoran Vukovic should
10 say something about this. I ask the Court to ask Zoran
11 Vukovic about it.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is of the
14 view that the accused cannot be given audience because
15 the accused is represented, and the co-counsel should
16 get instructions from the accused and the co-counsel
17 should address the Trial Chamber if there is need.
18 Having said that, the co-counsel will continue with the
19 trial. That is the reason why there are two advocates
20 appearing for accused persons in this trial.
21 So if you wish a few minutes to consult your
22 client, fair. I will give you those few minutes.
23 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
24 Honour. If you would just give me a minute to consult
25 my client.
1 [Defence counsel and accused confer].
2 MR. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] The accused
3 Zoran Vukovic agrees that I should continue.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The trial will continue
5 with you representing the accused.
6 The problems of the late counsel will be
7 sorted out, and I would invite the Registry to deal
8 with that behind the scenes. In the meantime, the
9 trial will continue.
10 Now, about the additional witness, any
11 submissions, since you are already on your feet?
12 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
13 Honour. I wish to tell the Court that on the 11th of
14 May, the Defence received a fax with the Prosecutor's
15 motion asking that a witness, Witness FWS-105 should be
16 added to the list of Prosecution witnesses, and on the
17 10th of May, this witness expressed her willingness to
18 testify, and that the witness should be heard in the
19 week of 22nd May on, immediately after Witness DB.
20 The Defence of the accused Vukovic objects to
21 this manner of bringing witnesses before the Court,
22 because Witness 105, in two previous statements of the
23 9th, 10th, and 11th February of 1966 [sic], and the
24 17th of April, 1998, never mentioned the accused
25 Vukovic; just that she never mentioned him when
1 interviewed by the investigators.
2 So the witnesses cannot say that they were
3 not asked about certain accused, because it is quite
4 evident that when an accused is arrested, they mention
5 the names of the people who have been arrested because
6 they have heard about it. And the Defence would like
7 to express its concern about this way of questioning
8 witnesses and asking them to come and testify, because
9 to confirm what Witness FWS-105 said, we have to say
10 that they never mentioned Vukovic before and did not
11 identify him before. That is why the Defence objects
12 to FWS-105.
13 We would like to say that today, we looked in
14 our box and we found unredacted statements of 105 and
15 105A in English -- in B/C/S, but we only received some
16 statements, unredacted.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm not clear about-- you
18 received the statements of 105 unredacted? You already
19 received --
20 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S, we
21 received 105 and 105A, which were redacted. And today,
22 in our box, we received 105 and 105A in B/C/S and in
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Unredacted? So in effect you'd
25 like time to consult, to look through the statement,
1 and also get instructions from your client?
2 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: And your objection to FWS-105
4 is simply because, according to you, in her statements,
5 previous statements, previous to the arrest of the
6 accused, she never mentioned Zoran Vukovic. That is
7 not a valid point, because this witness will come to
8 court and make a solemn declaration and give whatever
9 evidence the Prosecution wishes to draw from her, and
10 you'll be allowed to cross-examine and put those issues
11 to her. In any case, whatever she will say goes to the
12 weight that the Trial Chamber should attach to the
13 evidence of this witness. So it's not a valid point
14 for objection to the witness giving evidence in the
15 Trial Chamber, in this Trial Chamber.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we've got all the
18 points, and before we make a final ruling, we would
19 like to hear the other counsel.
20 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, since we started
23 from this side, we may as well make Mr. Prodanovic the
24 last one.
25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
1 fully agree with what Defence counsel for Zoran Vukovic
2 has said, and I am aware of what my colleague
3 Mr. Prodanovic will say, and I support what he will
5 Now that I have risen, I would like to tell
6 the Court that the registry has approved the
7 appointment of co-counsel as of 9th May, and that is my
8 young colleague, Vladimir Rajic, who will assist me in
9 the defence of my client. So I would like to introduce
10 him now.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Rajic, welcome to this
13 MR. RAJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, please.
15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
16 the Defence of the accused Kunarac agrees with the
17 standpoint of my colleague, the counsel for the accused
18 Vukovic. We would only like to add that Witness 105,
19 in her previous statements, said that she had only seen
20 the accused Kunarac once, and she mentioned that he had
21 a beard and a moustache. We are afraid that this
22 witness, when she comes, will give more information
23 about Mr. Kunarac, and we fear that the witnesses may
24 have been told to mention certain details, because it
25 is illogical that they did not remember these details
1 five years ago when they made their statements, and yet
2 they remember them now, eight years after the event.
3 That is our standpoint, of course, and it is up to the
4 Trial Chamber to make its ruling.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Of course, like I said to your
6 colleague, that those are matters that you put to the
7 witness in cross-examination. And if you have evidence
8 that she has been told what to tell this Trial Chamber,
9 you simply produce the evidence.
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
11 I only wish to remind you that about two weeks ago we
12 heard Witness 48, and regardless of how hard the
13 Defence tried to get the witness to talk about the
14 statement she gave to the police in Sarajevo, the
15 witness kept denying this, and it is very relevant for
16 us to compare this statement with her other
17 statements. When the Defence finished its
18 cross-examination, it was sufficient for the
19 Prosecution to put one question for the witness to
20 recall this, but our cross-examination had already been
21 completed, so we could not ask any further questions
22 about it. I would like to stress that we are in a very
23 unfavourable situation, because the witnesses always
24 say that they do not remember when we ask them
25 something, and yet they are under oath, and that is why
1 we are concerned.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Prodanovic, you seem to
3 assume that merely because a witness gives evidence
4 here, that the evidence will be accepted. We are here
5 to judge the weight to be afforded to those witnesses.
6 I have not made up my mind about Witness 48
7 at all, but everything you've said goes very much to
8 her credit and to her denial of having given that
9 interview. If the Prosecution accepts, or you are able
10 to establish that she did in fact give it, that goes
11 very strongly to her credit. You have to just trust us
12 to be able to judge the weight.
13 The issue here is not whether we're going to
14 accept these witnesses; the issue here is whether
15 you're going to be in a position to meet the case that
16 they bring. Now, you're certainly in a position, I
17 would have thought, to be able to cross-examine her
18 about her prior inconsistent statements. The real
19 issue, as the presiding Judge has put to you -- or put
20 to your colleague, is whether you are in a position to
21 meet it. And in relation to that, you do, of course,
22 have the fact that you only knew her identity
23 apparently this morning.
24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I
25 understand, Your Honour. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: I want to confirm with the
2 Prosecution whether -- about when the statements,
3 particularly in B/C/S, Serbo-Croat, unredacted ones,
4 when they were served on the Defence.
5 Ms. Kuo, please..
6 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the unredacted
7 statement was served indeed over the weekend and
8 received by Defence counsel this morning. However,
9 they have been in possession of the redacted
10 statements, as part of the supporting materials -- at
11 least, Mr. Prodanovic should have received that for
12 almost two years.
13 And it's also -- her name has been mentioned
14 by other witnesses through the witness list. Obviously
15 she was present, and so her number has come up, and her
16 name next to it, in some of those confidential witness
17 lists that we've submitted during the course of trial.
18 JUDGE HUNT: That doesn't mean, of course,
19 that they've made any investigation in relation to her,
20 now knowing who she, is if they only have been told
21 recently that she's going to be called as a witness.
22 MS. KUO: That's true, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HUNT: The problem I have with this is
24 that the 22nd of May, when you're suggesting she should
25 be called, will give them no opportunity to make
1 inquiries in the former Yugoslavia about her.
2 MS. KUO: That is a problem, Your Honour.
3 We're not anticipating calling her directly on the
4 22nd; just that week. If the Court wishes, we can
5 place her testimony at the end of the trial, if that is
6 what Defence counsel wishes, to enable them to
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. To allow the
9 Defence counsel and their clients to receive full
10 instructions regarding the evidence of this witness,
11 105, the Trial Chamber will allow time to the Defence
12 so that they, perhaps during the break, can investigate
13 the evidence, as well as the witness herself, before
14 the Prosecution can call the witness. So we are
15 allowing the motion, but the witness should be called
16 after the break of the 5th of June. If it means that
17 will be the only witness remaining for the Prosecution,
18 then let it be.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours. I
20 had indicated that there were some other matters that I
21 wanted to bring to the Court's attention. Some of
22 those are just in the way of courtesy information to
23 both the Court and to my learned friends in terms of
24 our view as to the way in which the matter is
1 And the first thing that I wanted to advise
2 was that a reevaluation of our case has led us to
3 conclude that we will no longer be calling Dr. Rogers,
4 no longer propose to call Dr. Gow, and no longer
5 propose, during the course of the Prosecution case, as
6 we see it thus far, Dr. Rath. So in other words, there
7 will be three experts which we do not feel that we will
8 be calling as part of our case.
9 That will leave Dr. Cleiren as our sole
10 proposed expert witness. Keeping those matters in
11 mind --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you even proceed, can
13 you make an unequivocal statement that you're not
14 calling Rogers, you're not calling Gow, you're not
15 calling Rath. This is important so that the Defence
16 can deal with it.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, and that's why I'm
18 raising it at the first opportunity. Now, of course,
19 we'll still have two other experts, that is, Nogo and
20 Alic, who we have advised about before, but I'm just
21 talking about the elimination of those three witnesses,
22 so that my friends aren't spending time preparing for
23 someone that we don't intend to call, or the Court
24 having to concern itself with that evidence.
25 Now, the reason I mention that, apart from
1 the courtesy to everyone, is to give the Court some
2 idea of how this may affect the way we see the
3 scheduling being affected thereby.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we leave these three, I
5 know that Dr. Cleiren's statement is in. And the next
6 one, is it Rogo [sic]?
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Nogo.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Nogo.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. And Alic.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: And Alic. Their statements are
11 already in.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Everything is already in.
13 Everybody has copies of it. Everybody knows what the
14 issues are. Those are the military experts.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: So these three are the only
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. We also have, of course,
18 Mr. Subasic that I made an application for some time
19 ago, but we indicated to the Court that we view him
20 largely as a fact witness.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: So if we're talking -- where
23 we're asking the traditional opinion evidence from an
24 expert, it would be in those three areas.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you. Yes.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Having said that, if I may,
2 depending, of course, on circumstances such as Visas
3 and things like that and the length of
4 cross-examination, we can foresee that perhaps -- it's
5 not unreasonable to expect that at the end of the
6 three-week session that we have planned, the
7 Prosecution case may be closed, but for -- we may just
8 have 105 for the first day if that is what you wish.
9 I'm just letting you know that before making a
10 decision -- give you an idea of the timing.
11 While I'm on my feet, unless you wish us to
12 say anything further about that, I understand that the
13 Defence also has an existing application which reads:
14 "Defence Joint Request for Presence of Defence Experts
15 During the Trial."
16 I don't think, by reading the motion -- the
17 title --
18 JUDGE HUNT: The title certainly doesn't
19 reflect what they want.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: No. And if my friends are
21 seeking the relief that is actually in their request,
22 then the Prosecution has no objection. And I assume
23 that the Court will again, in the event you're so
24 disposed as to grant the order, that you would include
25 the requirement of a written acknowledgement for the
1 protective measures, but other than that, I don't wish
2 to say anything.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Before the bench
4 consults, may I have a response -- the clarification
5 from the Prosecution on the Defence medical experts and
6 the motion by the Defence? Anything else?
7 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has
8 submitted a motion dated the 8th of May, 2000 in answer
9 to the motion mentioned by my learned colleague
10 Mr. Dirk Ryneveld. The Defence requests that medical
11 experts should be consulted as regards witnesses
12 FWS-50, 95, 96, 191, and 190 [Realtime transcript read
13 in error: F and 190], because in that the last motion
14 submitted by the joint defence of Kunarac, Kovac, and
15 Vukovic, the Defence asked that the statements made by
16 these witnesses should be shown to medical experts for
17 their opinion, and the Defence was only granted
18 approval for this for FWS-48, 75, 87, 101, and 205, but
19 as regards the witnesses mentioned just now, the Trial
20 Chamber has not made a ruling, which is why the Defence
21 submitted this motion.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE MUMBA: You still want to make some
25 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] I have
1 concluded with regard to this matter.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Trial Chamber
3 will issue a decision in writing.
4 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
6 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought Mr. Prodanovic wanted
7 to say something.
8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
9 Honour. No. I do not wish to repeat what my colleague
10 has just said.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Regarding the calling of
12 Prosecution Witness 105, the Trial Chamber will allow
13 the motion, and the witness will come after the break,
14 that is, after the 5th of June. If that be the only
15 Prosecution witness remaining, the Trial Chamber is
16 concerned with fairness of the trial. The Trial
17 Chamber is concerned that the accused persons, who are
18 in detention at The Hague, should have sufficient time
19 to give instructions to their counsel. So that if need
20 be, they can make their investigations in the former
21 Yugoslavia regarding the evidence and the identity of
22 this witness.
23 So FWS-105 will be called by the Prosecution
24 after 5th of June this year.
25 Anything else?
1 MR. RYNEVELD: No, Your Honour. I believe
2 those are the preliminary matters. I propose, unless
3 it's inconvenient, I would propose that we continue
4 with Witness 192, who was three-quarters of the way
5 through chief.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will continue with the
7 examination-in-chief of the last witness, and she may
8 be brought into court, with all the protective measures
9 in force.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Registrar, while we're
11 waiting, could Exhibit 214 be made available for the
12 witness. That's the list of names.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 WITNESS: WITNESS 192 [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise,
17 Your Honour. I looked at the transcript now. As I was
18 speaking about the submission made been the 8th of May,
19 2000, the numbers of the witnesses I referred to and
20 the Defence wishes to have medical documentation
21 disclosed upon, it says "F and 190."
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you repeat the correct
23 numbers then, please?
24 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
25 Honour. The Defence wishes the medical experts to see
1 the documents for FWS-50, FWS-95 -- perhaps I should
2 say it in the English language.
3 [In English] Disclose the witness statements
4 of the following OTP witnesses: FWS-50, FWS-95,
5 FWS-186, FWS-191, FWS-190, and FWS-175, the medical
6 experts the Defence intends to call.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Is it FWS-50, or FWS-150?
8 MS. LOPICIC: FWS-50.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. We'll deal with
10 that in our written decision.
11 MS. LOPICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. We are
13 continuing with examination-in-chief by the
14 Prosecution, and you are still under solemn
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld: [Contd.]
18 Q. Now, Witness, I understand it's been some
19 time since you gave evidence, and I just want to ask a
20 couple of questions, if I may, to clarify some of the
21 issues in your testimony last day.
22 I believe, during the course of your
23 evidence, you mentioned an individual by the name of
24 Pero Elez. Did you know him before this conflict?
25 A. [No translation]
1 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, I didn't get a
3 JUDGE MUMBA: We didn't get a translation
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Should I try again?
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.
7 MR. RYNEVELD:
8 Q. Witness, prior to the conflict in 1992, did
9 you know a Pero Elez?
10 A. I did not know Pero.
11 Q. How did you learn his name?
12 A. I learnt his name from the sister that Pero
13 Elez had taken away, rather, the sister of the girl
14 that Pero Elez had taken away.
15 Q. And are you able to describe what this Pero
16 Elez looked like when you saw him at Kalinovik?
17 A. He was a big man. He had a beard too.
18 Q. All right. The next area that I would like
19 clarification is you mentioned to us, during the course
20 of your evidence, that there was a discussion between
21 you and an individual called Zaga about the bombing of
22 cafes, and can you tell us when exactly that discussion
23 took place and under what circumstances?
24 A. This happened because I asked who this man
25 was, since he had taken our children away. I found out
1 from a policeman what he was called. He didn't know
2 his real name. He just said that he went by the name
3 of Zaga.
4 I asked later about my children. I don't
5 know. We talked about something else too. Then he
6 asked me whether I remembered the cafes that were blown
7 up in Gacko, and I said I did remember. This was the
8 end of April. He said that he had done it, because the
9 first disturbances in Gacko were created by Beli
10 Orlovi, the White Eagles, and he said that he was
12 Q. When you say "he," who are you now referring
13 to when you say you had a conversation with a gentleman
14 and that he said that he had done it?
15 A. Zaga, Dragan Kunarac.
16 Q. And that's the individual that you identified
17 in this courtroom last day?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, Witness, do you remember when it was
20 that you were arrested? Was that the 4th of July,
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And when were you ultimately released or
24 exchanged? Do you remember that date?
25 A. The 1st of September.
1 Q. Now, you've given evidence about the
2 situation at Kalinovik, and I asked you a question
3 about what -- the circumstances that you found yourself
4 in, and I believe you used the word "horrible." Can
5 you tell me or tell the Court whether your treatment at
6 the Kalinovik school was the same from the time you
7 first got there until the very end or did circumstances
9 A. This started later, after the girls were
10 taken away. A few days before we came to Kalinovik we
11 could go out; women could go and buy bread. That was
12 only during the first two or three days after we were
13 brought to Kalinovik. Later, they didn't let us leave
14 the school.
15 Q. Do I understand from your answer that the
16 situation became worse after the 2nd of August, the
17 date when the girls were taken away?
18 A. Well, yes. Later it was worse. From the 2nd
19 of August onwards, they would come during the day and
20 during the night. During the night they would ask the
21 guards for torch lights and they would go into the room
22 and they would select women; they would select young
23 women, girls, and they would take them out into the
24 hall. Then they would rape women and girls in the hall
25 and they would take them to other rooms. This happened
1 day and night.
2 Q. How do you know what they did with the women
3 when they took them out? Did you see it or did you
4 hear about it or did you hear any noises? Can you tell
5 us the source of your information?
6 A. Well, some of the women who were taken out
7 and raped talked about it; others remained silent.
8 There was a sister-in-law of mine. She was 55 years
9 old. And it was about 10.00 or 11.00 at night they
10 came; soldiers came. They asked for her
11 daughter-in-law, that she was supposed to take a letter
12 to someone, that there would be an exchange. We all
13 knew that there was no exchange concerned. That could
14 not happen at night.
15 She was frightened and she started to cry.
16 My sister-in-law said, "Let me take the letter. Leave
17 her alone." They took this sister-in-law of mine out.
18 She was the mother-in-law of her daughter-in-law. They
19 kept her outside for about half an hour. She returned
20 crying. She walked up to me and she said, "They raped
22 Q. This sister-in-law of yours, would you look
23 at Exhibit -- there's a sheet of paper with Exhibit
24 214. That's the sheet of paper you referred to. Do
25 you see the name of your sister-in-law on that sheet of
1 paper underneath the number 186? Do you see 186?
2 A. I see that, but that's not that person.
3 Q. Right. And there's a name immediately under
4 that line. Do you see -- is that the name of the
5 person to whom you refer as your sister-in-law?
6 A. Yes, that's her name.
7 Q. Do you remember approximately when it was
8 that your sister-in-law was taken out and later
9 recounted to you that she had been raped?
10 A. I cannot remember the date. This was after
11 the girls were taken away. They would take them out
12 after that all the time, into the halls and into the
13 other rooms, but I just know it was during the night.
14 Q. Could you also tell us who it was who took
15 the girls and women out? Can you describe what they
16 looked like or whether they were soldiers, or did you
17 know any by name?
18 A. They were soldiers, but I wouldn't know their
19 names, no.
20 Q. Do you recall the types of uniforms they may
21 have worn?
22 A. Camouflage.
23 Q. Do you recall how women were selected? Were
24 you present when women were selected to be taken out?
25 A. Yes, I was. When they would come during the
1 day, they would make us get up, all of us. Then they
2 would say, "You come out. You, you." And they would
3 take them out through the door.
4 There were soldiers from Montenegro and from
5 Serbia. One could recognise them by their accent, by
6 the way they spoke.
7 Q. That was during the day. Did it also occur
8 at night-time, and if so, how did it happen at
10 A. It would happen during the night too. On one
11 occasion, in the early evening, two men came on
12 horseback. They were from Serbia. We recognised their
13 accents. They left their horses in front of the
14 school. These two men walked in. This was in the
15 early evening. They took one of our women away. They
16 took her to where their soldiers were.
17 She was there all night. They returned her
18 the next day, around 8.00, between 8.00 or 9.00 or
19 10.00. She told all of us that throughout the night
20 everyone had raped her, all the soldiers who happened
21 to be there. The woman could not walk.
22 She was ashamed of it, but she did say it.
23 She said that all of those who were present raped her.
24 And these same men who came on horseback returned her
25 the next day. They went on horseback and she had to
1 walk by them.
2 Q. Apart from these Serbian men on horseback,
3 were there other soldiers who came during the
4 night-time to take away women, and if so, what manner
5 was the selection process adopted at night?
6 A. They would come during the night. They would
7 ask the guards for torch lights. If they didn't have
8 any, then they would go into the room and ask women for
9 lighters or matches. The guards told us that even if
10 someone had a lighter or matches, that they should hide
11 them, not to give them to them, because then they would
12 light these matches and they would look for the younger
13 women and simply take them out.
14 Q. While you were at Kalinovik school, did any
15 representatives of police authorities ever come to the
16 Kalinovik school? For example, the chief of police,
17 did he ever come to the school?
18 A. He would come, the chief of police, and also
19 I think the -- there was a man called Govedarica and a
20 man called Zeljaja. Once the representative of the SDS
21 came. That's how he introduced himself to us, that he
22 was the president of the SDS of Kalinovik.
23 Q. What did he do when he came?
24 A. He asked where we were from, why we had come
25 there, who had brought us there, where our husbands
1 were. It's not that they would take women out or
2 something. They didn't even make any threats; they
3 just asked these questions.
4 Q. It was quite apparent, however, that the
5 women were detained there when they came to the school?
6 A. Well, yes. We were all detained. We could
7 not go out. The soldiers came whenever they wanted to,
8 day and night. The soldiers -- the guards who could
9 would defend us, but others, other guards did not.
10 They would even help them. They would give them torch
11 lights at night.
12 Q. I'd like you now to tell us about the
13 circumstances just prior to your exchange or release.
14 I understand that eventually an exchange did take place
15 between some women for something else. Can you tell us
16 how that happened?
17 A. I remember, when Kunarac came for the second
18 or third time, I asked him why he took our girls away
19 and why he hit me. He then said to me that fighting
20 had been taking place at Trnovo and at Rogoj, and that
21 some relatives of his had been killed and that he was
22 very angry.
23 Q. Yes? What happened next?
24 A. After that, there was an exchange. Some
25 women went before me. They carried those messages.
1 But until then, there hadn't been any exchanges. A
2 truck full of women had been released before I was.
3 They went towards Trnovo and Rogoj. That's where they
4 went. We went after that. The place that we were
5 exchanged at is called Jakomisje.
6 Q. Prior to the exchange in which you were
7 involved, I understand that you served as a messenger;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us how it was that you were
11 selected to be a messenger and exactly what your duties
12 were? Tell us about the details of that incident.
13 A. This was a few days before we were
14 exchanged. In the afternoon the chief of police came,
15 this Govedarica, from Kalinovik, and Zeljaja also
16 came. They were either in Kalinovik or in Ulog, but
17 that's exactly where they were. There were also some
19 They entered the hall where I was. They
20 asked who would take a letter to the BH army, where
21 they were holding the line, and I got up and I said, "I
22 will." They took me out in front of the school. There
23 were quite a few soldiers there. There were a few
24 vehicles. They asked me whether I had any children,
25 and I said that I did, that I had two. They said that
1 I had to take a message to the BH army, and that if I
2 did not come back, that they would kill my children.
3 They blindfolded me with a white cloth. They
4 took me into a vehicle. I don't know what the vehicle
5 was like, because I was blindfolded. I don't know how
6 many people were next to me. I just heard them
8 They brought me to a hill. They took me out
9 of the vehicle. They took the blindfold off and they
10 showed me a hill that was held by the BH army. They
11 gave me a stick with a white cloth tied to it. They
12 said that I should carry that in my hands. They said
13 that I should not turn back, that I should just look
14 straight ahead. They said that they had binoculars and
15 that they would be watching me, and that's how I went.
16 Q. Just before we move on, why did you
18 A. I volunteered because we could not stand it
19 anymore. Whenever these soldiers would come, or the
20 police, Zeljaja and Govedarica, I always asked about
21 the girls, my daughter, and I said -- I simply couldn't
22 take it anymore, and I said, "Well, whatever. Let this
23 happen to me too." I had a younger daughter as well.
24 The next day, when -- or actually, when
25 Kunarac took my daughter away, the day after that
1 another group came. She was 13 years old. They told
2 all of us to get up. We got up. This one man walked
3 up to my daughter, took her by the hand, and said, "You
4 come out." And I started to cry and scream. And I
5 held her by the sleeve and he was holding her on the
6 other side. I said, "You already took one of my
7 daughters. Are you going to take the other one too?"
8 One soldier said, "Kolja," that's how he addressed him,
9 Kolja, "Let her go," and he did, actually. I was
10 always afraid for her as well.
11 Q. So if I understand you correctly, your older
12 daughter, who you've already spoken about, that's 191
13 on the list; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And your other daughter was how old, 13 or
17 A. Thirteen.
18 Q. And the 10-year-old was your son; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So when you volunteered and they asked you if
22 you had any children and you told them two, you meant
23 the two remaining after 191 was taken away; is that
24 what you meant?
25 A. Yes. Yes. I was referring to my other two
1 children, who stayed at the school when I was taken
3 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. Now, you were
4 given a stick with a white flag on it and you were
5 given a letter. Do you know what was in the letter?
6 A. I don't know what was in the letter, but I
7 handed the letter over when I came to this hill. Men
8 approached me and told me to stop, and I stopped. They
9 walked up to me and asked me who I was. I said that I
10 was one of the women from the school in Kalinovik and
11 that I had a letter for the army. They said to me,
12 "Come with us."
13 I heard these men talking amongst themselves,
14 saying that they were supposed to collect some corpses
15 of some 11 Serbs. I think that there was some fighting
16 there that had taken place a few days earlier, and
17 these men were killed. So then they asked the army
18 that they collect the bodies of these dead soldiers and
19 hand them over and that in return they release us.
20 Q. Had they taken your blindfold off when they
21 sent you on your mission to go to the BiH army?
22 A. Yes, and they said that I should not look
23 back, that I should only walk straight ahead. It was
24 just a small footpath, a little old path. It was a
25 path where there were bodies scattered all around, and
1 there was also a vehicle that was out of order, an
3 Q. When you got to the front line, as it were,
4 the people that you spoke to, were they Serbs or
5 Muslims or could you tell?
6 A. Well, they were Muslims.
7 Q. How were they dressed?
8 A. They wore civilian clothes. They wore
9 tracksuits, tennis shoes. Some of them had
10 boots on. They did not have uniforms. They did not
11 have camouflage uniforms. They did later but not then.
12 Q. Could you tell if or how they were armed when
13 you turned over the letter?
14 A. Yes. They had guns.
15 Q. How long did you spend with the
16 representatives of the Muslim army?
17 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe about an hour,
18 because they wrote a letter and then they gave it to
19 me, and I had to take it back and hand it over to the
20 people who had sent me. So it could have been about an
21 hour that I was there.
22 Q. Could you recognise the area where you were,
23 in other words, where the front line or where these
24 bodies were? Do you know what area it was that you
25 were taken to by car?
1 A. Well, I don't know. There were woods, there
2 were meadows, but the footpath I took was through a
3 place where there had been fighting, because I saw
4 parts of arms and legs lying around. There was a
5 broken-down vehicle there, parts of vehicles, and the
6 road was badly damaged. And it was still daylight, so
7 I could see that.
8 Q. Did you return the letter to the Serb
9 representatives who had sent you?
10 A. Yes, I did. I gave them the letter.
11 Q. How long would it have taken you to go from
12 the Muslim side back to the Serb side?
13 A. Well, it was already getting dark. I don't
14 know. I know that I came back to where the Serbs
15 were. It was 10.00 p.m., and a man was waiting for me
16 there. He took me to a village where there were Serb
17 soldiers. It was a Muslim village. It was moonlight,
18 and I could see that there had been a mosque there and
19 half the minaret was missing, and then I recognised it
20 as a Muslim village.
21 Q. Do I take it you do not know the name of the
23 A. No, I don't know the name. It was the first
24 time I'd been there.
25 Q. When you arrived at this village, who was
2 A. Well, the people who had sent me. There were
3 a lot of soldiers there. Probably they had a base
4 there. They slept there and spent time there, because
5 there were several houses there, and the people to whom
6 I had to give the letter were asleep. There were two
7 or three houses there where they slept. Some of them
8 were inside and others were outdoors.
9 Q. You had earlier told us that when you were
10 sent on your mission, some chiefs of police from
11 Ulog -- and I can't remember the name of the other
12 town -- were present. Were they still there when you
14 A. I don't remember whether they were there when
15 I returned, but I know they were there when they sent
17 Q. Upon your return, did you ask any questions
18 of anyone as to what was going to happen now that you
19 delivered the response?
20 A. Well, I asked what would happen, and they
21 cursed my Ustasha mother, and then I didn't dare to ask
22 any more questions. He said, "How dare you ask us
23 questions?" So I didn't ask anything after that.
24 Q. After that, were you taken back to the
25 Kalinovik school?
1 A. They took me back to the school, and from
2 their conversation among themselves, I understood that
3 they said, "Well, these balijas don't want to collect
4 our dead, so you will have to do it." That's what they
5 told me. I said I would like to do that so that I
6 could get out of the school. And Govedarica, the chief
7 of police was there, and he promised that I could do
8 it. I asked him to put my children on a list they were
9 making. They were making a list of the women who were
10 to collect corpses, and my brother's wife and my sister
11 and their children were on the list. There were nine
12 of us. And I asked him to put all of us on the list so
13 that we could be released earlier, and he said he
15 On the following day, when they came to take
16 women to collect corpses, I was not on the list. They
17 took women in the order that they had listed us when we
18 arrived. I don't remember how many women went to
19 collect corpses on that day.
20 Q. Did they, in fact, return and eventually was
21 there an exchange?
22 A. Well, on that day, they found something. The
23 terrain was rough, there were woods, valleys, hills,
24 and they found a few corpses and handed them over, and
25 then they were taken back to the school and they were
1 not released on that day. And on the following
2 morning, they took more women, so that they managed to
3 collect the corpses, and I think this went on for two
4 or three days. In the end, they said that there was
5 still two missing, that not all the corpses had been
6 collected, so that they -- while we were collecting
7 corpses, they let a group go, 10 or 20, and they were
8 all released.
9 Q. Ultimately, you and your son and daughter
10 were released on the 1st of September, 1992; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you met up with your husband?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you ever subsequently in touch with your
16 daughter, 191?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I understand that you moved, and you went to
19 a city where your husband made arrangements to attempt
20 to contact your daughter, 191; is that correct?
21 A. Well, after we -- we arrived later. We
22 couldn't establish contact. There were no
23 communications. We couldn't do anything for a long
25 After a long time, we, my husband and
1 daughter, went to some ham radio operators to establish
3 Q. And you learned where your daughter was, that
4 is, 191, through those ham radio contacts?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were also aware that your husband
7 attempted to make arrangements to exchange two of the
8 girls that had been taken away; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do I understand that number 186 was
11 exchanged partly due to your husband's efforts?
12 A. This was -- 186, she was exchanged.
13 Q. Turning now just to my last series of
14 questions, if I may. Did you ever see Zaga on
15 television at the time of his surrender?
16 A. I saw him in the evening when he was brought
17 to The Hague. It was shown on television.
18 Q. At the time that you were watching
19 television, did you recognise him, and if so, how?
20 A. Yes, I recognised him. I had seen him three
21 times, and he stuck in my memory. When he was on
22 television, he was nicely dressed, but I still
23 recognised him.
24 Q. Was there anything particular about him that
25 assisted you in remembering that face?
1 A. Well, I remembered his face, his eyes, and he
2 had slightly curly hair, he had big eyes, and I
3 remembered him. I remembered him well.
4 Q. Did you eventually end up speaking to your
5 daughter some years later?
6 A. Two years later, on the 2nd of August, we
7 met. This was on the 2nd of August, 1994. It was the
8 same date that she had been taken away two years
9 before. We met on the same date.
10 Q. Did your daughter tell you what happened to
11 her, in detail, after she'd been taken away?
12 A. No, she didn't. I didn't want to ask her
13 because I didn't want to hurt her. I knew what had
14 happened, but she wanted to forget it, and I couldn't,
15 I couldn't hurt her any more.
16 Q. Did she ever tell you what happened to 186?
17 A. No. She was later exchanged, and my daughter
18 didn't tell me anything about her.
19 Q. Did you ever speak to 186 about what had
20 happened to your daughter?
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: I just wish to check with my
23 colleagues to see if there are any other questions I
24 may have inadvertently omitted to ask. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. RYNEVELD:
3 Q. Just for clarification, you said that you
4 spoke to your daughter two years to the date after she
5 had been taken away, that is, the 2nd of August, 1994.
6 Did you speak with her then in person or was that the
7 next contact that you made with her?
8 A. It was in person. We were together. There
9 were some visits that were arranged. There were some
10 commissions that arranged those visits, and we could go
11 over from one side to the other. And we didn't have
12 much time together because we had to go back, each to
13 her own side.
14 Q. Do I understand that you had sort of
15 unrestricted access to your daughter two years after
16 that, after the Dayton Agreement was signed?
17 A. No. I haven't understood your question.
18 Q. Did your daughter come to visit you, wherever
19 you were, in 1996?
20 A. Yes. Yes. She came to visit me in 1996.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. I believe those are my
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination?
24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
25 Your Honour.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
2 Q. Good day, Witness.
3 A. Good day.
4 Q. Could you tell us how many statements in all
5 you gave to representatives of the International
7 A. One.
8 Q. I didn't hear.
9 A. One.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you give any statements to
11 other organs? I'm referring to the police, to
12 humanitarian organisations, the International Red
14 A. I made a statement to the police.
15 Q. When did you make a statement to the police?
16 A. Well, perhaps -- I'm not sure, but perhaps
17 two years ago.
18 Q. That means in 1998?
19 A. I think that's when it was.
20 Q. Did you make a statement to the police about
21 what happened to you in Kalinovik?
22 A. Yes, only about that, because there was
23 nothing else I knew, I could talk about, except what
24 happened there.
25 Q. Did you make a statement to the police about
1 the actions of the accused Kunarac concerning the
2 bombing of cafes in Gacko?
3 A. Everything you have heard me say here, that's
4 what I told the police.
5 Q. Do you have a copy of the statement?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you also give interviews to journalists?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you remember that a newspaper published a
10 report about your daughter?
11 A. Yes. That was in 1992.
12 Q. Was her picture in the paper?
13 A. Yes, because we gave her picture. We didn't
14 know whether she was alive or not, or where she was, so
15 we thought someone would recognise her from the
16 photograph and let us know.
17 Q. So was it at your own initiative that you
18 gave a statement to a journalist?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember what you told the
22 A. I remember we said that all the girls I have
23 mentioned were taken away, and if someone found out
24 something about her, they should let us know.
25 Q. Very well.
1 A. Her name and her picture were in the paper.
2 Q. In the statement you made to the Tribunal you
3 said that in Gacko, in late April 1992, they started
4 destroying cafes owned by Muslims. Could you tell us
5 the name of just one Muslim cafe owner whose cafe was
6 blown up?
7 A. There were five or six Muslim cafes. Gacko
8 is a small town. You can go from one side to the other
9 in ten minutes. It's not a big place. And I know
10 about every cafe, where it was and whose it was. There
11 was a man named Djakovic, then there was a Smajo
12 Basic. There were five or six cafes that were blown
14 Q. You also said in your statement that (redacted)
15 (redacted), that he
16 negotiated with the Serbs, and you thought there would
17 be no problems in Gacko. Tell me, who authorised your
18 husband to negotiate with the Serbs [Realtime
19 transcript read in error "sneshs"]? Did he do it on
20 his own initiative or was he authorised or instructed
21 by an organ?
22 A. No. (redacted) and he
23 talked to the president of the SDS.
24 Q. During these talks, did your husband have any
25 contacts with the SDA headquarters in Sarajevo?
1 A. Yes, he did, but the SDA never said there
2 would be a war, and my husband was very angry. He's
3 still angry, because he never heard from them that
4 there would be a war. Because, had we known there
5 would be a war, we would have gone away; we wouldn't
6 have waited to be arrested. Other people left. But
7 they talked and they agreed that Muslims should not go
8 into the reserves. And they did in other places -- in
9 Bileca, in Trebinje -- but the Muslims in Gacko agreed
10 not to go, and they didn't.
11 Q. Do you know why the Muslims did not want to
12 go into the reserves?
13 A. Well, that's what they agreed, because they
14 didn't want to go to war. They didn't want to fight.
15 Why should they fight? They didn't want to go to
16 Mostar. In Mostar there were Serbs, Muslims and
17 Croats. Who were they supposed to fire on? Or to fire
18 on Dubrovnik.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel.
20 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry to
21 interrupt, but on page 40 there says, "Tell me who
22 authorised your husband to negotiate with -- it's
23 supposed to be said "Serbs," not "sneshs." On page
24 number 40, line number 9. It's supposed to be
25 "Serbs." Here it's typed "sneshs."
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be corrected.
2 Thank you. It will be corrected. Thank you.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: And while we are interrupting,
4 I'm wondering whether this evidence might tend to
5 identify and maybe be redacted. Since she's indicated
6 her husband's position, it might just lead to identify
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It will be redacted from
9 the public records, yes.
10 I'm wondering where the usher has gone.
11 You can proceed.
12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You said that Zaga told you that in April
14 1992 he had mined cafes in Gacko owned by Muslims.
15 Tell us, when did Zaga tell you about this?
16 A. I think it was -- it was not the first
17 evening when he took the girls away. He didn't say
18 anything on that occasion. But the second or third
19 time when he came, I asked him about the girls, and it
20 was then that he asked me whether I remembered the
21 blowing up of the cafes. And I said I did. And he
22 said, "I did that."
23 Q. Was anyone else present when Zaga told you
25 A. Well, there were other soldiers there, but I
1 can't remember whether he told me this when he was with
2 Gojko Jankovic.
3 Q. [No interpretation]
4 A. No. No. I was alone.
5 Q. Can you tell us where this happened, in what
7 A. I think it was a small room. There was some
8 gym equipment there. I remember that well.
9 Q. Can you tell us, after how many days from the
10 day your daughter was taken away, when did he tell you
12 A. It was three or four days later.
13 Q. So it was about the 6th or the 7th?
14 A. Well, I don't know. He came three or four
15 days later. But he came back on two occasions. I saw
16 him three times in all.
17 Q. Could you explain, the first time you saw
18 Zaga, when he came back after the 2nd of August, could
19 you describe when this was and who he came with and
20 what time of day it was?
21 A. On one occasion when he came, there were some
22 people who came with him. There was Gojko Jankovic.
23 And the second time he came with Jasna Jadranka. It
24 was from him I heard that she was called Jaca, because
25 they kissed on the corridor. And she was very
1 aggressive. I asked her something, and she licked her
2 knife and started towards me. And he said, "Jaca, come
4 Q. Can you explain whether he was in uniform?
5 A. Yes. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.
6 Q. Did he have any markings?
7 A. He had ribbons on his shoulders, and when he
8 took the girls away, he had a band around his head.
9 Q. When he told you that he had blown up cafes
10 in Gacko, did you have the impression that he was
11 confessing to you, or did he have some other purpose in
13 A. I think it was not a confession. I think he
14 was proud of it. But he simply said it. He asked me
15 if I remembered it. Because on that occasion people
16 had fled toward Borce with their families and spent a
17 few days there, and then they had to work, so they came
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
20 it's 11.00. Is this the right time for a break?
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall take our break.
22 I see Mr. Ryneveld on his feet.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Just one matter that I
24 noticed, and I didn't want to interrupt, but I think
25 it's obvious that at line 16:10, 5504, the transcript
1 indicated that there was no interpretation of a
2 question that was put. I wonder whether counsel might
3 want to look at that and deal with that issue when we
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel will check the
6 transcript, and if necessary, we'll repeat the question
7 so that it can be interpreted.
8 We shall take our break now and resume the
9 proceedings at 11.30 hours.
10 --- Break taken at 11.00 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We're continuing with
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. When Zaga told you about the destruction of
16 the cafes, did you believe that story?
17 A. Why would he say it was that way if it
18 wasn't? Could you say that you did something that you
19 didn't do?
20 Q. In your opinion, what was his motive? Why
21 did he tell you that?
22 A. Perhaps he was proud of it.
23 Q. Tell me, are you sure that on the 2nd of
24 August, 1992, in the evening hours, Zaga was present
25 when your girl was taken -- your daughter was taken
1 away with seven other girls?
2 A. On the 2nd of August, yes, I was sure.
3 Q. You said that eight girls were taken away.
4 Can you tell us whether they first walked into your
5 room or to another room? Can you tell us in which
6 order the girls were selected?
7 A. I don't know. I was in that room, and that
8 was the room where I was and where only my daughter was
9 taken out of. I don't know whether it was the first or
10 the last.
11 Q. So you claim that from the room that you were
12 in, only your daughter was taken away?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When she was taken away, did you come out
15 after her?
16 A. No, because he hit me and he put a gun at my
17 forehead and he kicked me. I was beside myself. I
18 just saw her go towards the door.
19 Q. What kind of light was in the room? Could
20 you see well?
21 A. Well, it was 7.30 in the evening. It's
22 summertime. You can see well.
23 Q. Does that mean you could discern faces?
24 A. Naturally, yes.
25 Q. Do you remember when was the first time that
1 Zaga came after the 2nd of August?
2 A. Well, he came two or three days later. I
3 don't know the exact day, but he did come two more
5 Q. At what time of the day was this?
6 A. Well, it was daylight. It wasn't evening, it
7 wasn't night-time. I don't know.
8 Q. Was it in the morning or in the afternoon?
9 A. Well, I couldn't say now. I just know that
10 it was during daytime.
11 Q. Did you talk about something when he came for
12 the first time? Did you talk about your daughter?
13 A. Well, yes. I recognised him when he came.
14 The first time I recognised him. I walked up to him,
15 and I asked what happened to my daughter and where the
16 others were, and he said that they were together and
17 that they were with him.
18 Q. You remember this first time when he came
19 whether he gave you a telephone number?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you publish that telephone number in the
22 newspapers, the one that he gave you?
23 A. I think I did.
24 Q. Is this number 363367 [sic]?
25 A. Well, I can't remember now. It was eight
1 years ago. It was a telephone number, but I can't
2 remember which one.
3 Q. Was this telephone number published in the
5 A. Well, I think it was. I can't remember, but
6 I think it is.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: I see counsel for Zoran Vukovic
8 on her feet.
9 MS. LOPICIC: Sorry for interrupting, Your
10 Honour. On the transcript it's mistyped, the number of
11 the telephone. Mr. Prodanovic said 64647, and here it
12 is "363367."
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, can you please
14 quote the number yourself, the number you put to the
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
17 the number is 64647.
18 A. Yes. That is my daughter's picture. As for
19 the number, I know that it was a telephone number, but
20 I can't remember which one.
21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did you use that number? Was that number
24 A. We could not use that number because the
25 telephone lines were not working at that time. We
1 tried somehow, via Croatia, via Belgrade, but we never
2 managed to get through.
3 Q. Did he tell you whose number this was?
4 A. As far as I can remember, he said it was his,
5 and it was the number of Tivat, I think he told me.
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
7 the Defence has two documents that it wishes to
8 tender. The first one is a copy of a page from the
9 telephone directory of Tivat, and this number is in the
10 top right-hand corner, and that is the telephone number
11 of Dragoljub Kunarac's father in Tivat, because he has
12 a house in Tivat.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the number?
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is
15 precisely the number that we discussed 64647 [Realtime
16 transcript read in error: 646467]. So --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: And the date?
18 JUDGE HUNT: What about the date of the
19 telephone book?
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The second
21 document, Your Honour, is a certificate confirming
22 that -- it has a stamp too -- that that is the number
23 that is registered in the name of Dragoljub Kunarac's
24 father, and that this has been his number since the
25 13th of June, 1989. So it is that number. We wanted
1 you to see this, and we would like this to be admitted
2 into evidence.
3 So the first document are copies of a page of
4 the Tivat telephone directory, and the top is the
5 number of the accused father's, and there's his name as
7 JUDGE MUMBA: While we are sorting out the
8 paperwork, counsel for Zoran Vukovic?
9 MS. LOPICIC: Page 50, line 6 again is
10 mistyped. The telephone number"6464" and then there is
11 additional number"6". It's not supposed to be. It's
12 supposed to be 64647, the telephone number.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The transcript will
14 be corrected.
15 Can we have the number for identification
16 purposes, please?
17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
18 will be marked D56, Defence Exhibit D56.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the
21 MR. RYNEVELD: None whatever. Thank you,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So it's admitted.
24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Once again,
25 I would like to ask the usher to help us with the
1 second document. That is a certificate stating the
2 father of the accused Kunarac has had this number since
3 the 13th of June, 1989. It is a certificate with a
4 seal, with a stamp on it, and we are tendering it.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Again, no objection.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The document will
7 be admitted.
8 Can we have a formal number, please?
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
10 will be marked D57, Defence Exhibit D57.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wish
12 to clarify one point, that this is the very same number
13 that the accused's father still has, until this present
15 Q. You said in your statement: "Around 7.30,"
16 so I'm talking about the 2nd of August, "in the
17 evening, Zaga entered the room, accompanied by Gaga.
18 He was escorted by a policeman at that point in time,
19 and I did not know their names. I found out their
20 names a bit later from the policeman who came with
21 them. This policeman was one of the two guards who
22 tried to help us."
23 Tell me, please: Can you give us the name
24 and surname of the policeman who said to you that the
25 person who took your daughter and the others away,
2 A. Nobody asked me about the name and surname.
3 Q. What was that?
4 A. Nobody asked the policeman for the name and
6 Q. But you said that you heard the name and
7 nickname of Zaga from the policeman.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us the name and surname of this
10 policeman who was humane and who helped you?
11 A. Well, I said just now that we did not ask the
12 policeman for his name.
13 Q. Can you describe this policeman to us, then?
14 A. I don't know. The man was in a police
15 uniform. He had a blue shirt.
16 Q. Was he there all the time, throughout your
17 stay there?
18 A. No. They took turns.
19 Q. Yes, I understand that. They worked in
20 shifts. But was he in these shifts throughout your
21 stay in Kalinovik?
22 A. I can't remember. We did not have access.
23 We could not go out and go to their door. We could
24 only go from this room to the toilet. Perhaps he was
25 there, but I did not notice him.
1 Q. When you say, "We could not" -- when you say,
2 "We could," [as interpreted], does that mean that you
3 could not go out or that no one could go out?
4 A. No one. They did not allow us contact with
5 the women from Kalinovik. They were upstairs, we were
6 downstairs. They did not allow us any contact with
8 Q. Do you know where the village of Jelasica is?
9 A. Well, I think it's there, somewhere around
10 the school, because there were some women from that
11 village there.
12 Q. Do you know how far away this village is from
14 A. I don't know. They brought us there, and
15 then when they took us away, well, we didn't walk
16 around so that we could know.
17 Q. Do you know whether anybody from the school
18 went to the village of Jelasica out of the witnesses
19 who were at the school?
20 A. Well, I don't know. From this room that I
21 was in, I don't think so, no. Why would they go?
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel for Zoran Vukovic is on
23 her feet. Yes, please.
24 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I would like to
25 state that at page number 53, line number 14, it says,
1 "We could," but it is supposed to be said, "We could
2 not." It's supposed to be negative, but not positive.
3 "We could." It's in the transcript. It's supposed to
4 be, in the transcript, "We could not." Line 13 and
5 14. It's mistyped again.
6 JUDGE HUNT: You realise, don't you, that the
7 transcript is checked against the sound tape before
8 it's distributed, and the LiveNote, bearing in mind the
9 speed with which the proceedings go, is not always
10 regarded as being absolutely accurate. Certainly
11 things like numbers, it's very helpful for what you're
12 doing, but you may rest assured that the transcript is
13 checked before it's distributed, against the sound
15 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, I understand. It's just I
16 thought because it's "could not" instead of "We could."
17 JUDGE HUNT: It could be important.
18 MS. LOPICIC: It could be important. That's
19 the reason I stand up and I said. Thank you, Your
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Today you mentioned in your statement that
24 you knew that in the school where you were detained,
25 there were certain rapes that were carried out on the
1 premises. Could you tell us why you did not speak
2 about these details in the statement that you gave to
3 the investigators?
4 A. I have just started remembering some of the
5 details. When I stop and think, I remember some of
6 these things. There are so many other things I could
7 remember and say but that I have not made in this
8 statement. Now that I think about this, all of it
9 comes back into my mind.
10 Q. Are you trying to say that your memory is
11 better now than it was five years ago?
12 A. Well, I remember some things now that I had
14 Q. Did you talk to anyone about these events?
15 So is that the reason why your memory is better now?
16 Did somebody remind you?
17 A. No. No. I do it on my own, in the evening.
18 Before I fall asleep, I remember.
19 Q. Can you write down the names of these women
20 who were raped? I would like to ask the usher to bring
21 you a piece of paper.
22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like
23 this witness to write down the names and surnames of
24 the women who were raped.
25 A. I would not write this, because there were
1 some women who had been raped and who did not even tell
2 their husbands about it, or their very nearest and
3 dearest, because they were ashamed of this.
4 One night a man came and he took away six
5 girls and one little girl. He took them somewhere.
6 This was a farm near Foca. And he returned them after
7 midnight. They had kept silent about this. They never
8 talked to anyone about this. And I don't want to speak
9 about it then. Everyone has his own right. I don't
10 want to go into this. I don't wish to do this.
11 Q. You said that you did not have any contact
12 with witnesses. How come you know that they don't want
13 to have this disclosed?
14 A. They never spoke about this. No one ever
15 talked about it. For some time during the first few
16 years, I was in Mostar. There were some women there,
17 they never uttered a word about this. Neither did
18 their families, as if nothing had happened. They
19 didn't talk about it. For women, this is really a
21 Q. Where were these women from?
22 A. These women were from Gacko.
23 Q. Can you tell us how old they were?
24 A. Well, my sister-in-law, she was 55 years old,
25 because she had grandchildren and she had two
1 daughters-in-law. And the others were younger.
2 Q. In your estimate, how many women were raped
3 in the school in Kalinovik, that you know about?
4 A. Well, I know quite a few, but mostly they
5 kept quiet about it because of the women who were
6 raped. They had their children there, their mothers,
7 their sisters, and they just kept quiet.
8 Q. Did you see the rapes?
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. After these rapes, did they talk about who
11 the men were who raped them?
12 A. No, they didn't, because they didn't know who
13 the men were.
14 Q. Did they tell you that they had been raped?
15 A. Some of them did and some of them didn't.
16 Q. Was there anybody else besides you who was in
17 that school and who knew that the girls were taken out
18 to be raped and that they had been raped?
19 A. Well, whoever was there knows about it.
20 Q. And finally, can you tell us for whom you
21 were exchanged?
22 A. We were exchanged when everybody was, when
23 the exchanges were carried out for corpses. And
24 Govedarica promised us -- he was the chief of
25 police -- that on that day the girls would come to be
2 Q. Can you tell us who, on the Muslim side, took
3 part in the negotiations about the exchange of
4 Witnesses 186 and 181?
5 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I
6 didn't understand you.
7 Q. Can you tell us who, on the Muslim side, was
8 the mediator in the exchange of 186 and your daughter,
9 who did not want to be exchanged?
10 A. My husband came, and he went to see Mr. Haris
11 Silajdzic, and he asked him to ask Krajisnik for this
13 Q. Was your husband able to see Haris Silajdzic
14 because he was in the SDA and had a position there?
15 A. No. I think he did it because of the girls.
16 Q. But in Foca there were other girls. So why
17 did he ask only for these two?
18 A. Well, because they had been kept there
19 longer. There was a 13-year-old girl who was a
20 daughter of my sister-in-law and had gone to school
21 with my daughter. She was exchanged in March in 1993,
22 and another girl was exchanged before that. So only
23 these two girls from Gacko, my daughter and number 186,
24 had been left.
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] This was my
1 last question. If you only give me a minute to consult
2 with my colleague.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And my last question is: When you gave your
7 statement to the police, did you mention the rapes in
9 A. Yes. I said everything that I have said now
10 in this statement.
11 Q. Did you give this statement in the police
12 station, the CSB in Sarajevo?
13 A. I don't know. That was a police station. I
14 don't know who it belonged to.
15 Q. Did you sign that statement?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
18 further questions, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?
20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I
21 have no questions for this witness.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel for Zoran Vukovic,
24 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I do not have any
25 questions for this witness. Thank you.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Prodanovic, I'm just a
2 little concerned with your last couple of questions.
3 Are you going to assert at some stage that there is a
4 statement which is contradictory to the evidence which
5 the witness has given here?
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
8 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right, but,
9 otherwise, you would have had an obligation to put it
10 to the witness for her to be able to deal with it. Do
11 you understand?
12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?
15 MR. RYNEVELD: The only thing that I wanted
16 to point out is that the Prosecution is not aware of
17 the existence of this statement to the police. We do
18 not have it. We have not disclosed it. We don't -- we
19 know nothing about it.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you. And no
22 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry. No, I do not. Thank
23 you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
25 Thank you very much, Witness, for giving
1 evidence to the Tribunal. Thank you. You are
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the next
5 witness, please?
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there have
7 to be some technical arrangements be made, because this
8 next witness testifies in closed session. So this
9 voice alteration has to be put on. Oh, there is no --
10 okay. Then I can go on.
11 [Closed session]
13 pages 3118-3197 redacted – closed session
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
22 at 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on
23 Tuesday the 16th day of May, 2000,
24 at 9.30 a.m.