1 Tuesday, 23
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Would the
7 registrar please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case
9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. The
12 proceedings continue.
13 Cross-examination, Mr. Prodanovic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
16 Your Honour.
17 WITNESS: WITNESS 61 [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
21 Q. Good morning.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Let me remind you. Yesterday we stopped at
24 the question I put to you, and I said, "When did you go
25 to Gorazde?" And you said it was the following day.
1 Was there any shooting in the town on the day you left
2 for Gorazde?
3 A. That night that -- the previous night they
4 kept on shooting all night, until the morning.
5 Q. Which route did you take to leave the town?
6 Was it through Donje Polje or was it near Opstina?
7 A. We passed by the SUP, over the bridge, the
8 Drina bridge.
9 Q. Was there a barricade? And when I finish my
10 question, would you please wait a little because of the
12 A. No, I didn't see any barricades.
13 Q. How long did you stay in Gorazde?
14 A. I stayed there for about 23 days.
15 Q. When you were leaving for Gorazde, did you go
16 to the Filipovici barracks or did you go there on your
17 return from Gorazde?
18 A. On my way to Gorazde I went to the Filipovici
20 Q. And did you stay there throughout your time?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Could you explain to us who was in charge of
23 the barracks?
24 A. Oh, I don't know. There were some soldiers
25 in the barracks.
1 Q. In your statement you said it was the JNA.
2 Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it was the JNA then.
4 Q. And how did they treat you?
5 A. Normally.
6 Q. Did they help you?
7 A. There was nothing for them to do to help us.
8 There were a lot of refugees there.
9 Q. Did you eat with them?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you hear later what happened to the
12 barracks and who took it over?
13 A. Yes. Yes, I did. I heard -- I don't know
14 whether it was the following morning or two or three
15 days later. They came and they took over the barracks.
16 Q. Was Witness 183 with you the whole time?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Where did you meet Witness 183?
19 A. She came to fetch me so that we could go to
20 Foca together.
21 Q. Are you related to her in any way?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When did you come back to Foca?
24 A. On the 23rd of April, 1992, or at least I
25 think that's when it was. It's very hard to remember
1 all the dates.
2 Q. Yes, I understand. When was the first time
3 that Serb soldiers started entering people's flats in
4 relation to the time of your arrival?
5 A. Well, sometime after we came to Foca.
6 Q. What were they wearing?
7 A. Well, they wore camouflage uniforms. Some of
8 them were in civilian clothes, with leather vests, and
9 so on, but most of them were in camouflage uniform.
10 Q. Did they introduce themselves when they
11 entered the flats?
12 A. No, no. Well, we didn't ask them to, and
13 they didn't.
14 Q. Can you tell me when you heard the nickname
15 Zaga for the first time?
16 A. When he came to the flat of 183.
17 Q. From whom did you hear it?
18 A. Well, as I said yesterday, from soldier
20 Q. Was that the first time you saw Zaga?
21 A. Yes, it was the first time.
22 Q. Where were you when you saw Zaga?
23 A. I was opposite the flat of 183.
24 Q. Who was with you when Zaga turned up?
25 A. Witness 183, her child, my two sons, two
1 other women, and two other children.
2 Q. Were there any refugees with you?
3 A. Yes, the two women and the two children I
5 Q. Who was with Zaga?
6 A. There were two other soldiers.
7 Q. Can you describe the other two soldiers?
8 A. I can describe one of them, but not the other
10 Q. So please describe the one you can describe.
11 A. Well, he was of medium height, dark-haired.
12 He had a pudgy face, and he had an accent. He used the
13 word "oli". It seemed to be a Montenegrin accent.
14 Q. When was the first time you learned Zaga's
15 full name?
16 A. Well, I learned it from that soldier.
17 Q. Did you all go to 183's flat?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where did the soldier Tadic live?
20 A. I don't know where he lived, but he used to
21 come to the flat opposite the flat of 183.
22 Q. Did he help you in any way?
23 A. Well, yes. He was a good man. He was not
24 rough at all.
25 Q. In your statement, on the second page, last
1 paragraph, you said: "A soldier told us that this was
2 Zaga Kunarac. In fact, he had told us earlier that
3 Zaga Kunarac would come to the flat. The soldier who
4 told us this was Tadic, who often came to people's
5 flats. Tadic told me that Zaga Kunarac would come with
6 his soldiers, and that those were soldiers going around
8 Yesterday, you said something different. You
9 said that Tadic told you after they left, "I could not
10 oppose Zaga Kunarac." Which of these two statements is
12 A. Well, you know, it's all correct, because
13 it's been eight years since that happened. But believe
14 me, everything I have said is true.
15 Q. Do you know what happened to the soldier
16 Tadic afterwards?
17 A. I learned that he had been killed.
18 Q. Was that during your stay in Foca?
19 A. Yes, we were in Foca.
20 Q. Was there anybody else there when he told you
21 this? I mean about Zaga Kunarac.
22 A. What do you mean "was anybody else there"?
23 Q. Well, when he told you that Zaga Kunarac was
24 going to come.
25 A. Yes, 183 was there, and the owner of the
2 Q. What do you think? How could he have told
3 you that Zaga Kunarac was going to come if he had never
4 come before?
5 A. Well, probably he heard that Zaga Kunarac was
6 going around the town, and so he told us. He probably
7 heard that it had already started, that they had
8 started going around flats, looting and maltreating
10 Q. And he just mentioned that name?
11 A. Yes. He said that soldiers would come, that
12 is, Zaga, that he was dangerous, and that no one could
13 stand up to him.
14 Q. Were you with 183 the whole time while Zaga
15 was in the flat?
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. Were you physically mistreated?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Where was 183 when they entered the room?
20 Was she apart from you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us where she was?
23 A. She was in the children's room.
24 Q. Who was she with at the time?
25 A. Zaga took her to the children's room alone.
1 Q. When the soldiers took 183 away, what time
2 was it; do you remember?
3 A. It was about 1.00 a.m.
4 Q. At that moment, were all three of them there?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When the third soldier came who stayed in
7 (redacted), do you know when that was?
8 A. Well, that was the same time.
9 Q. How long did 183 stay outside after they took
10 her away?
11 A. About an hour or an hour and a half,
13 Q. Can you tell us at what time she came back?
14 Do you remember?
15 A. It was around 2.30 or 3.00.
16 Q. In 183's absence, did you discuss this
17 incident with anyone?
18 A. Yes, I discussed it with Tadic.
19 Q. What did you talk about?
20 A. I asked him what would happen to 183.
21 Q. When the soldiers came back, how long did
22 they stay in the flat that time?
23 A. About 20 minutes or half an hour at the most.
24 Q. On their return, did they physically maltreat
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did 183 tell you she had been raped that
4 A. She told me that she had barely survived,
5 that she had been maltreated, and that they had forced
6 her to do impossible things, things that are difficult
7 to do.
8 Q. How much time elapsed from that incident
9 until the time you left Foca?
10 A. Well, between 15 and 20 days.
11 Q. You mentioned Dragan Gagovic. Tell me, did
12 you know him personally?
13 A. I didn't know him before the war.
14 Q. You said that he became the chief of police
15 only during the war. Do you still say that?
16 A. Yes. When we were going to get our passes, I
17 saw on the door that it said that he was the chief of
19 Q. Do you know who was the chief of police
20 before him?
21 A. No, I have no idea. In fact, I can't
23 Q. Do you remember when you gave a statement to
24 investigators of the Tribunal?
25 A. What investigator?
1 Q. Investigators of The Hague Tribunal.
2 A. I made the first statement in 1996.
3 Q. That was an interview. But when did you make
4 a statement?
5 A. Well, it was in 1998.
6 Q. Do you remember whether the accused had
7 already given himself up to the Tribunal when you made
8 this statement?
9 A. No, I don't know anything.
10 Q. At whose initiative did you make this
12 A. On my own initiative.
13 Q. Did you make the statement in a foreign
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Do you remember whether it was the time when
17 refugees were returning to Bosnia and Herzegovina?
18 A. It had nothing to do with that.
19 Q. Did you talk to the investigators or, rather,
20 when you talked, did they offer you any benefits
21 regarding your stay in that country?
22 A. No. I never asked for anything.
23 Q. After making that statement, did you stay in
24 that country?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Did you make the statement at the same time
2 as Witness 183?
3 A. No.
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] And finally
5 I would like to tender into evidence a report on the
6 procedure of identification by way of a photo board,
7 where the witness did not recognise the accused.
8 That would be my last question.
9 With your permission, I would have one last
10 question for this witness.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just hold on?
12 Can we have a formal number, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is
14 Exhibit D68, under seal.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the
16 Prosecution for this document to be tendered into
18 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no
19 objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Yes. It's tendered
21 under seal. You can go ahead, Counsel.
22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
23 Your Honour.
24 Q. Can you tell us where Tadic lived, in whose
25 apartment? Do you remember who lived in that apartment
1 before him? Do you remember?
2 A. (redacted).
3 Q. Was she in that apartment?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was Tadic in her apartment with her?
6 A. He would come to that apartment.
7 Q. On that critical evening, was he in (redacted)
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How come he was there?
11 A. Well, he would come there.
12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
13 further questions, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
16 the Defence for the accused Radomir Kovac has no
17 questions for this witness.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
20 we have no questions. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, if you have so
22 much pain, Ms. Lopicic can do the formalities for you.
23 She's co-counsel.
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
25 thank you very much.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?
2 MR. MUNDIS: No, Your Honour. The
3 Prosecution has no re-examination for this witness.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,
5 for giving evidence. You are now released.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next witness will
10 testify in closed session. I don't know if the
11 registrar needs to fix anything because of the voice
12 alteration for this other witness.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We don't need
14 to have a break to have the courtroom ready for the
15 next witness.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll proceed.
17 This will be a closed session.
18 [Closed session]
13 pages 3768-3900 redacted – closed session
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
22 at 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on
23 Wednesday, the 24th day of May, 2000,
24 at 9.30 a.m.