1 Wednesday, 24
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. May the
7 registrar please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] IT-96-23-T
9 and IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub
10 Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: May the witness please make the
12 solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
14 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
15 and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: MUHAMED NOGO
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.
19 The Prosecution.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 At the outset, the Prosecution calls Colonel
22 Nogo as an expert witness. But I should indicate that
23 in addition to asking him opinion evidence with respect
24 to his area of expertise, he will also give some
25 factual evidence as well. In other words, it's a
1 combination of some facts and expertise. So I just
2 thought I would indicate that at the outset, in case
3 the question arose as to whether or not his entire
4 evidence would be limited to expertise.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: All I want to make clear is
6 whether the facts to which you intend to ask him to
7 deal with have been advised to the Defence.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, they have. As a matter
9 of fact, we have also, as you are aware, provided a
10 Rule 94 bis submission, and the Defence has had
11 everything disclosed in terms of what the Prosecution
12 will be intending to lead from the witness during the
13 course of our examination.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, all right. Then we can
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you:
17 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
18 Q. Now, Colonel Nogo, do I understand, sir, that
19 your present rank with the BiH army is that you are a
20 chief of staff of the Centre for Combat Training of the
21 army of BiH in Glamoc?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are you getting a proper translation, sir?
24 Do you hear what I am saying?
25 A. Yes, yes, yes.
1 Q. And, sir, how long have you been a
2 professional soldier?
3 A. Twenty years, and four years in the secondary
4 military school. So I've been with the military since
5 the age of 14.
6 Q. And perhaps you could explain for us how it
7 worked when you joined the military school. Was this
8 when the -- still the former Yugoslavia?
9 A. Yes. In 1976, I started secondary military
10 school, until 1980. After that, I worked three years
11 in Subotica. And when I received my first commission
12 in Subotica, I went to Banja Luka. And then I worked
13 in the garrison in Pristina, where I was until the
14 conflict broke out, that is to say, the war in Bosnia
15 and Herzegovina in 1992.
16 Q. And by the time the conflict broke out in
17 1992, sir, what military rank had you achieved with the
18 then JNA?
19 A. When I left the former JNA, I had the rank of
21 Q. Now, during your training as a soldier, did
22 you receive training in the laws of war and the Geneva
24 A. Yes, in the secondary military school and in
25 the academy and during my service, and that is the same
1 kind of training I gave to my own soldiers.
2 Q. So once you became an officer, do I
3 understand that you were responsible for the training
4 of other soldiers in both military law and Geneva
5 Convention requirements, rules and regulations?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, since I understand that you are now a
8 Colonel in the army of the BiH, can you tell us whether
9 or not the structure of the army where you now serve is
10 similar to, or the same as, or different from the
11 structure in the former JNA?
12 A. I wish to mention that this is the army of
13 the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, not the army
14 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. Thank you. I stand corrected.
16 A. Secondly, as for structure, every army is
17 based on similar principles and is based, therefore, on
18 subordination and a single command. There is a
19 commander, a chief of staff, a commander of the units,
20 staff, and everything else that accompanies a unit.
21 Q. And in the course of your duties, sir, did
22 you have the responsibility of training soldiers?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you published any articles of any kind
25 with respect to your duties?
1 A. I published articles in "Prva Linija, The
2 Front Line". That is a paper issued by the Federation
3 army. I am specialised in armour mechanised units, and
4 I wrote articles about that and strategy related to
6 Q. Thank you. And I understand, sir, that you
7 have also served in combat -- in conflict situations.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Your training is not merely academic
10 training; you lived the life of a professional soldier,
11 both in peacetime and at war?
12 A. In the beginning, that is to say, when I
13 joined the army, I had training; that is to say,
14 exercises, tactical exercises, shooting, everything
15 else that an army deals with, and later on that is what
16 I trained my soldiers in. Every year I had the same
17 exercises, the same training, et cetera.
18 Q. Now, sir, can you tell us, when you joined
19 the military high school, was there, in 1976, when you
20 joined, was there a system of compulsory military
21 service in the former Yugoslavia?
22 A. Yes. All military-age able-bodied men were
23 supposed to do their military service. And then from
24 1980 to 1983, the possibility for women to do military
25 service was introduced, but it was not compulsory; it
1 was voluntary.
2 Q. And when all able-bodied men, and later on
3 women, were involved in the compulsory training -- I
4 understand that the women, it was not compulsory -- did
5 they receive training with respect to military law and
6 Geneva Convention and how one was to treat prisoners
7 and civilian population?
8 A. Yes, through moral political education and
9 general military principles. Those were the subjects
10 that were taught. And also soldiers were taught about
11 their duties and responsibilities and various
12 principles, including the treatment of prisoners, the
13 principles governing combat, et cetera.
14 Q. And from what areas of the former Yugoslavia
15 did -- in other words, who was eligible for this
16 compulsory military service? Was it from all over the
17 former Yugoslavia?
18 A. All able-bodied men from the entire territory
19 of the former Yugoslavia.
20 Q. Did that include Montenegro at the time?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And how long would this compulsory service
24 A. In the most recent time, so to speak, it was
25 12 months in the army and 15 months in the navy.
1 Q. That's an either/or situation, I take it; you
2 spent 12 months in the army or 15 months in the navy?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, sir, at the time of the outbreak of the
5 war, you say you were stationed in Pristina; is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you had achieved the then-rank of
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What happened at that point when the war
12 broke out? You were then a captain in the JNA army in
13 Kosovo, so what occurred? What did you do?
14 A. In 1992, the beginning of April, when the
15 conflict started, news programmes were transmitted from
16 Belgrade, and I was informed, like all others, that
17 these were only individual conflicts. And the
18 information I received from home, from my parents, from
19 my relatives and friends, said that war had started.
20 I decided to leave the JNA. I submitted a
21 request to that effect, and I started out for Priboj,
22 where I was stopped by the so-called Border Service,
23 and I was returned. I was told that I could not pass
24 because there was a war in Bosnia.
25 Then I waited for an opportunity in
1 Pristina. We received orders that all military
2 personnel from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina
3 could join the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I
4 agreed to that also. I had an interview with the
5 commander of the brigade, and on the 13th of May I went
6 to Belgrade, where we were assigned to different
7 corps. I was assigned to the Sarajevo Corps, and
8 together with other officers, that is to say, not only
9 ethnic Muslims, but also Serbs and Croats, I was sent
10 in the direction of Sarajevo.
11 Q. I'm going to stop you there. Just so that
12 I'm clear, you had indicated to us that you had
13 intended to leave the JNA. Why had you made that
14 decision, sir?
15 A. Because my people, my family, were
16 jeopardised, because an aggression had been carried out
17 against Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 Q. And once you reported to Sarajevo, as you've
19 indicated, after this procedure you've just described
20 to us, were you still then a part of the JNA?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you hadn't actually officially resigned
24 A. I submitted a request to resign, and this
25 request is dealt with within one month's time. On the
1 13th of May we set out for Belgrade.
2 Q. What happened next?
3 A. When we left Belgrade, we were supposed to
4 enter via Zvornik. On the bridge there were Chetniks.
5 And we continued towards Bratunac. At the bridge near
6 Bratunac the situation was the same, but we managed to
7 pass there. We went via Milici, where the situation
8 was such that one could see the effects of the
9 conflict. There were tanks on the road, there were
10 trucks that had been hit.
11 We came to where joint patrols still were,
12 that is to say, Muslims and Serbs. We came to
13 Pjenovac. At Pjenovac we were put up in barracks.
14 This is former JNA barracks. In the same barracks we
15 saw different insignia, that is to say, insignia that
16 were not JNA insignia, that is to say, kokardes and
17 things like that. We also saw a soldier of non-Serb
19 Then also we went to Sarajevo via Sokolac,
20 Pale, and Jagodina, to Trdomici, Petrovici, Klek,
21 whatever these villages are called, Pilav, and then we
22 arrived at the barracks in Lukavica.
23 In Lukavica we were all put up in one
24 classroom, where Colonel Tolimir came. While he read
25 out our orders, on one side he singled out one list of
1 people; and another side, another list. And then he
2 called out all our names and he said, "You Muslims, get
3 up." Twelve of us got up. He said to us that it's
4 going to be more dangerous for us from the back than
5 from the front and that he guarantees our security,
6 that we return to Belgrade.
7 Then a colleague of ours -- I could not
8 remember his exact name now. Mario whatever -- he got
9 up and he said that he was a Croat. They found his
10 orders. On the basis of his father's name they
11 established that. And they put him in the same group
12 with us. We agreed to that. We got a bus and a driver
13 and we went back the same way. We went to Pjenovac.
14 Q. I'm going to stop you there, sir. I just
15 want to clarify a couple of issues. You've gone very
16 quickly. Just so that I'm still clear, this group that
17 you have been with, this circuitous route via all these
18 villages where you ended up, this is still part of the
19 JNA army that you were with; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct. These were not only
21 Muslims and Croats. There were also Serbs there and
22 other members of the former JNA. We all wore JNA
23 insignia and we wore JNA uniforms.
24 Q. Yes. And this commander that you reported
25 to, who separated you into two groups of Muslims and
1 Croats on one side, and I take it Serbs on the other
2 side, this was also a JNA commander; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. And after he suggested to you
5 that it would be safer for you -- now, I'm not quite
6 clear on that. Something about it being more dangerous
7 for you from behind than in front. What exactly did
8 you understand that to mean?
9 A. We came on orders from the former JNA, and
10 all of us had their assignments by then, particular
11 positions where we were supposed to be assigned with
12 the Sarajevo Corps. We were told that this is a corps
13 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is where we
14 had already been deceived. That is to say that it
15 would be more dangerous for us from the back than from
16 the front if we were to join those units, because we
17 received information that some of our colleagues had
18 already lost their lives; for example, Rotic Kazafer,
19 who was a sergeant first class who had come from Vares
20 into Sarajevo.
21 Q. Just so that I'm clear, are you suggesting,
22 sir, you might in fact encounter fire from your own
23 troops; is that what means "safer from the back than
24 the front"; is that what you understood it to mean?
25 A. Troops they were assigned to; that is to say,
1 the units they had been assigned to.
2 Q. So as a result of that, sir, what did you do?
3 A. We agreed to go back, as I said, to
4 Pjenovac. We came to Pjenovac, we spent a night there,
5 and the next day, with a column going in the direction
6 of Belgrade, we continued our journey.
7 We arrived in Belgrade and we reported to the
8 SSNO, the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, and
9 our officers criticised us. They asked us why we left
10 Bosnia, that is to say, the army of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We gave them our views, our
12 opinions on that. They asked us to hand over our
13 documents, that is to say, our military IDs, which were
14 like civilian IDs for us. And military IDs, they were
15 identification papers for us. We asked them to make it
16 possible for us to return to our own units.
17 Upon return to Pristina, we reported to
18 brigade headquarters.
19 Q. Just stop there. So you left Belgrade and
20 you returned to Pristina; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Go ahead.
23 A. In Pristina, we reported to brigade
24 headquarters. We explained once again what had
25 happened, and the commander told us to wait.
1 During that time, we were looking into ways
2 and means of leaving the territory of Kosovo, and we
3 went in the direction of Novi Pazar. In Novi Pazar, we
4 received assistance. And again we returned to Pristina
5 and then went in the direction of Macedonia. Near the
6 border crossing, we could not cross the border at the
7 border crossing itself. But near Han Jalazit, General
8 Jankovic, near that border crossing, we went to
9 Macedonia. Hani Elzit is the name in Albanian.
10 Q. Sir, I understand there is a somewhat complex
11 procedure whereby you ultimately found your way to
12 Zagreb. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I'm not sure I need the details of just how
15 you went your way there. But as I understand it, you
16 went via a circuitous route through some other
17 countries and then ended up in Zagreb. Is that
18 correct, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And once you got to Zagreb, sir, is it --
21 what occurred in Zagreb that brought you ultimately to
22 a place called Mount Igman in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. Upon arrival in Zagreb, the fairgrounds area,
24 we were met by the members of the security forces, and
25 former officers were put into one group, former
1 soldiers into another group, and refugees from Bosnia,
2 civilians, were yet a third group.
3 We military men and officers were all checked
4 out, that is to say, whether we took part in the
5 Croatian front. They asked us which units we were in,
6 what our military postal codes were. And after all
7 these checks, we joined the Territorial Defence staff
8 of North-East Bosnia, its headquarters being in Zagreb.
9 Q. And allow me, please, to try to summarise
10 some of what I anticipate that you will say, and please
11 correct me if I'm wrong in my summary.
12 Do I understand that there ended up to be
13 about 112 of you, of which there were some six
14 professional soldiers like yourself who joined this
15 unit that arrived at Mount Igman?
16 A. One hundred twelve of us arrived at Igman,
17 and during our stay in Zagreb, other military men also
18 joined us, others who wished to go to Bosnia. They
19 went with some other units in some other directions,
20 whereas these 112 of us came to Igman on the 13th of
21 July, 1992.
22 Q. And when you got to Igman, what did you find
24 A. When we got to Igman, we joined the joint
25 unit of Igman, the joint detachment of Igman as a
1 unit. That is to say, all of us, all 112 of us did so.
2 Q. And this unit at Igman, just so that I'm
3 clear, at some point we have now left the JNA and
4 you've joined something else. What was the "something
5 else" you've now joined when you got to Igman? Tell us
7 A. At Igman, I joined men who spontaneously, so
8 to speak, gathered there and were grouped into units,
9 had their commanders, and I joined such a unit which
10 defended the free part of the territory of
12 Q. Did that unit ultimately become organised
13 into the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 Or please correct me if I've used -- is it the
15 Federation of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. Part of the personnel from the joint
17 detachment, Igman, belong to the army of the Federation
18 to the present day. Whereas part of the survivors
19 returned to their old jobs or found new professions.
20 Q. But the groups that you joined on the 13th of
21 July, which was sort of, as I understand it, an
22 impromptu group that got together, were you known by
23 some name? Did you call yourselves something?
24 A. My unit, at first, was the Zagreb Unit. A
25 few days later, we changed our name and the unit was
1 called Seher Igman, attached to the joint detachment of
3 Q. Now, I just want to back up for one quick
5 As you were trying to leave the JNA and to
6 join this army in Bosnia-Herzegovina, had anyone
7 attempted to arrest you or your fellow soldier friends
8 who were trying to leave the JNA?
9 A. Nobody tried to arrest me personally, but
10 soldiers who were running away from the JNA and who
11 were abandoning the JNA were returned from the
12 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, escorted by the
13 civilian police. They were handed over to the barracks
14 where they had escaped from, and then the military
15 organs would interrogate them there and send them to
16 the military court in Nis.
17 Q. How long did you stay at Mount Igman after
18 arriving there the 13th of July, 1992?
19 A. Until the 8th of April, 1993.
20 Q. So you were then stationed there for, what,
21 about nine months, something like that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, did you become involved in a combat
24 situation on the 29th of July, 1992?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us what your assignment was at
2 that time?
3 A. On the 29th of July, I was ordered to go in
4 the direction of Godinske Bare with three platoons, and
5 we arrived there in the evening when there was shelling
6 in Godinske Bare, and we were returned to the village
7 of Decici to spend the night there.
8 And at about 5.00 in the morning on the 30th
9 of July, we again went to Godinske Bare, and with my
10 two platoons, I attacked in the direction of Trnovo to
11 liberate Trnovo.
12 Q. And what was the ultimate objective at
13 Trnovo? You heard of some place called the Rogoj
14 Pass. Was that part of the objective?
15 A. Yes. The Rogoj Pass and the direction -- the
16 route leading to Eastern Bosnia.
17 Q. Now, at the time that you were asked to be
18 involved in this, what was your particular role? In
19 other words, what position or rank or function were you
20 serving in in your unit? You had been a captain in the
21 JNA. What was your role in this new group?
22 A. In the beginning of the war in Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina, we did not have ranks and I just had the
24 functional duty of commanding a unit, and -- in the
25 joint Igman unit. My task then was to command in the
1 direction I was active in, to liberate Trnovo and
2 Rogoj, and I was with a reconnaissance unit of the late
3 Cedo Domaz.
4 Q. How many men would you have had under your
6 A. One hundred and twelve.
7 Q. Even though you didn't have a rank, were you,
8 nevertheless, a commander?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who did you report to? Who was your
12 A. The commander of the joint unit of Igman.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. So, I'm sorry, just to repeat my last
17 question, sir: You commanded -- you were a commander
18 of about 112 men, and even though you didn't have a
19 rank, you were their commander; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And who did you report to? Did you have a
23 A. The commander of the Joint Detachment of
25 Q. And how many people were above you, shall we
1 say, if I can call it that, or superior to you, in
2 position or rank?
3 A. The commander of the Joint Detachment of
4 Igman and the Chief of Staff of the Joint Detachment.
5 Q. And who was the Chief of Staff?
6 A. That time, Huso Alic, also known as Soko.
7 Q. In any event, sir, you led your troops
8 towards Trnovo and ultimately towards Rogoj Pass; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And can you tell us, sir, what happened on
12 what particular dates? You've told us, I think, that
13 you overnighted after the first day of fighting, and
14 what happened on the following day, the 30th?
15 A. In the morning of the 30th, fighting started
16 to liberate Trnovo and the Rogoj Pass, and this went on
17 until the 31st. And just before dark, I received
18 information that Rogoj had been liberated and that I
19 should get ready with my remaining men to return to
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, this is 1992?
22 MR. RYNEVELD: That's correct.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is concerned
24 that we may be getting into the armed conflict, which
25 is admitted, and we don't need the details, except
1 insofar as it is relevant to the charges against the
2 accused. Maybe we should be moving into the
3 professional area of the expert witness.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. This very
5 issue occurred to me, except for one thing: As became
6 evident the other day from the letter that was provided
7 by the Defence about potential alibi, and I don't want
8 to be pre-emptive, but part of the -- I don't know the
9 details, but I do understand that part of the defence
10 will be to provide an explanation for one of the
11 accused's whereabouts at particular dates. It is
12 anticipated that part of the alibi will talk about what
13 happened, and where, in order to preclude -- or attempt
14 to persuade this court to provide some basis for their
15 alibi. While I have this witness here -- perhaps I
16 should really be recalling him. I'm anticipating --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. If you're
18 anticipating that, if it is part of the evidence, on
19 the fact evidence is to put up the Prosecution evidence
20 against the anticipated alibi evidence, that's fine.
21 Certainly this Trial Chamber wouldn't entertain
22 recalling witnesses where the Prosecution can deal with
23 the matter right away.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: That's why, out of an
25 abundance of caution, I thought I'd direct this witness
1 to a three-day period, and then moving on.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Let's get to the three-day
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
5 Q. Okay, sir. When was it that you say that you
6 heard that the Rogoj Pass -- you were no longer needed,
7 because it had already fallen, apparently, I take it
8 into your side's hands; is that correct?
9 A. In the evening of the 31st of July, 1992.
10 Q. And so you then received orders to return,
11 did you, without going on to Rogoj?
12 A. I received orders to take part of the unit
13 that had survived and to return to Igman, and that
14 units of the TO Trnovo staff would take over those
16 Q. All right. And did you in fact comply with
17 those orders and turn around and head back towards your
18 home base?
19 A. Yes. I returned to Igman with my unit and I
20 arrived there on the 1st of August.
21 Q. How long did you stay there before you
22 received further news about Rogoj?
23 A. To Igman?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. On the 2nd, in the morning, I went to Konjic
1 to visit the wounded, and when I came back, just before
2 nightfall on the 2nd of August, I received information
3 that Rogoj had fallen again.
4 Q. This is on the 2nd of August, before
6 A. Yes. Just before nightfall on the 2nd of
8 Q. And by then you had already received word
9 that Rogoj had fallen into the hands of the opposite
10 side; is that correct? Your side had lost Rogoj Pass?
11 A. On my return from Konjic to Igman, I received
12 information that Rogoj had fallen, so this had happened
13 during the 2nd of August, during the day, and I
14 received the information just before nightfall.
15 Q. And did you subsequently receive word again
16 that it had again been recaptured? When was that?
17 A. Rogoj was liberated again, and from the 3rd
18 of August onwards, it was in our hands.
19 Q. Just one more question, sir, about your
20 experience with fighting. Was fighting done during
21 daylight hours under normal circumstances?
22 A. Fighting was done in the daytime, and at
23 night there were -- there was shelling and occasional
24 infantry fire, but no movement of troops, because it
25 was impossible to detect minefields and to detect the
2 Q. So troops didn't move around other than when
3 it was light; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. We stayed at the lines we had reached.
5 Q. I'm going to move to another area, if I may
6 now, sir. Were you familiar with that particular area
7 around Foca and Rogoj? I mean, was this an area that
8 you knew well?
9 A. Well, because I was born in Rudo, in eastern
10 Bosnia, I often travelled along that road toward Foca,
11 Gorazde and Ruda. It was one of the roads leading to
13 Q. Are you able to tell us, sir, how long it
14 would take to get from the Rogoj Pass to Foca, on the
15 highway, in a vehicle?
16 A. Well, it's an asphalt road, so there is no
17 limit, and it would take half an hour to one hour,
18 depending on how fast one was driving.
19 Q. And how far from Rogoj to, say, Trnovaca?
20 A. Maybe ten minutes -- or no. Half an hour --
21 ten minutes less than to Foca.
22 Q. Is that because Trnovaca is closer to Rogoj
23 Pass than is Foca? It's about ten minutes closer to
24 the Rogoj Pass?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. At the time, sir, do you know whether or not
2 the road between the Rogoj Pass and Foca, Trnovaca,
3 Kalinovik, whether that was exclusively in Serb hands?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to go now to a totally
6 different area. In preparation for this particular --
7 being called to give evidence today, did you have an
8 opportunity to review some documents?
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I have Exhibit 126,
10 please. I'm just going to be showing the witness
11 Exhibits 126 to 132 and ask him whether he has seen
12 those or whether he's referred to them, and move on.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. These are exhibits which
14 have already been formally received into evidence.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: These are exhibits that have
16 already been formally introduced into evidence, I
17 believe through Taj Thapa.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: I've been corrected.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: They were marked for
22 identification but have not been formally given a
23 formal --
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Into --
25 MR. RYNEVELD: -- into evidence, yes. Sorry.
1 I --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I wanted to make sure
3 that it is properly done.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. And I'm reminded that it
5 is part of the Defence stipulations that these, in
6 fact, were the rules and the laws that were in effect
7 during the time of the armed conflict. So I don't
8 think there is any issue about these things; I just
9 want to refer the witness to them to see whether or not
10 he has taken them into consideration.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think I understand what
12 you're saying. You're not producing them formally into
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I do wish to do that.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Through this witness?
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Through this witness.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Fine.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: But I wanted to indicate that
19 these documents have already been agreed to in the
20 stipulations by the Defence. That they were, in fact,
21 the laws that governed at the time of the armed
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Of course the Defence
24 will be given an opportunity.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. Does the witness
1 have Exhibit 126?
2 Q. I'm not going to be asking you to comment on
3 them particularly, sir, other than to ask you whether
4 or not you have read Exhibit 126, which is the "Law on
5 Service in the Armed Forces," in your own language,
6 whether or not you have read that document and are
7 aware of its contents.
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that now be marked as --
10 formally as Exhibit 126 in these proceedings.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Any submissions from the
13 Defence? Any objection?
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [No interpretation]
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic?
19 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: It's formally admitted into
21 evidence and will retain the same number.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Sorry. I understand there was
23 no interpretation on what the registrar said about the
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The first
1 document introduced by the Prosecutor will be
2 Prosecution Exhibit 126.
3 MR. RYNEVELD:
4 Q. And sir, just so that we're clear, this "Law
5 on the Service in the Armed Forces," this is the
6 document that was published in the SFRY Official
7 Gazette in 1985; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And does it set out, sir, the structure of
10 the armed forces and the ranks and classes in the armed
11 forces, and set out the structure of the army as it was
12 in 1985?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And does it also, under chapter 8, set out
15 the responsibility of members of the armed forces, and
16 under Article 154, talk about criminal responsibility?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is this one of the governing documents that
19 governs the soldiers, both in the JNA and its successor
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Would you please turn to Exhibit 127. In
23 particular, I'm referring to an "Order on the
24 Application of the Rules of the International Laws of
25 War in the Armed Forces of the SFRY."
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we first have it -- if you
2 intend to have it admitted, I think we should first
3 deal with that. Then you can discuss it.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm trying to name it now so
5 that he knows what 127 is.
6 Might that be marked as --
7 Q. First of all, have you referred to that
8 document and are you familiar with its contents?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that be marked 127,
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is
13 Exhibit 127 of the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection to its admission
15 into evidence from the Defence?
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic?
22 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honour.
23 MR. RYNEVELD:
24 Q. And does this document basically deal with
25 the international laws of war?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And it sets out the various treaties and the
3 accepted principles of the international laws of war?
4 A. Yes, by the former SFRY.
5 Q. Then it also sets out criminal responsibility
6 for war crimes and other serious violations of the laws
7 of war, does it not, in this document?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Turning next, if I may, to Exhibit 128. And
10 just so that we know what it is, it's the "Book of
11 Rules and Authority of the Ground Forces Corps Command
12 in Peacetime." Once you have it, can you confirm that
13 you have in fact reviewed it and are aware of its
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And perhaps you might summarise for us what
17 that document does. What is it?
18 A. It deals with the competence of the corps
19 commander, and it mentions the duties of all the
20 members of the staff, of the command.
21 Q. Turning next, if I may, to 129 --
22 Sorry. Did we not mark it?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it marked, please.
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This
25 is Defence -- no, sorry -- Prosecution Exhibit 128.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any objection?
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic?
8 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: We can proceed.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
11 Q. 129, sir, just so that we know what it is,
12 that's the "Order on the Application of the Rules of
13 the International Laws of War in the Army of the
14 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina." Did you
15 review that document and are you familiar with its
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And very generally, what is that document
20 A. It's about the application of the rules of
21 the international laws of war, signed by the
22 then-president of the presidency of the Serbian
24 Q. And that was signed on the 13th of May, 1992;
25 is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry. I think I need a
3 formal number again. I'm sorry. This is a rather
4 tedious process. My apologies. 129.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 Prosecution Exhibit 129.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection to its admission
9 into evidence?
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic?
16 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. We can proceed.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
19 Q. Number 130, do you have that available, sir?
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, I intend to go
21 right through 130 to 132.
22 Q. That, I understand, is the "Law On The Army"
23 from the Official Gazette of the Serbian people in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina and of the 1st of June, 1992. Did
25 you review that document or are you aware of its
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: The formal number, please,
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is
6 Prosecution Exhibit 130.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection, please?
8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar.
11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic.
14 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honour.
15 MR. RYNEVELD:
16 Q. And, sir, what is that document about?
17 A. This is the "Law On The Army".
18 Q. And that would then control the laws that
19 govern the army; is that correct? I mean it's the "Law
20 On The Army". What sort of laws does it include?
21 A. Well, it was copied, more or less, from the
22 former JNA and named "The Law On The Army of the
23 Republika Srpska."
24 Q. I see. Moving on to 131, I understand that's
25 entitled: "A decree on the prohibition of the
1 formation and activity of armed groups and individuals
2 who are not under the sole command of the army or the
3 police on the territory of the republic". That's again
4 June of 1992. Did you review that document, and are
5 you familiar with its contents?
6 A. Yes, I know this document. It's a document
7 dated the 13th of June, 1992.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: And might we mark that as a
9 formal exhibit, please.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is
11 Prosecution Exhibit 131.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?
13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar.
16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic.
19 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
21 MR. RYNEVELD:
22 Q. What does this document do, sir? What is
23 this about?
24 A. Well, it's a prohibition on forming
25 paramilitary formations not under the control of the
1 regular army of Republika Srpska.
2 Q. I see. And might we move to the last one,
3 132. Do you have that before you, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you review that document, and
6 are you familiar with its contents?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: May we enter that as a formal
9 number, please, Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Prosecution
11 Exhibit 132.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?
13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic.
18 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
20 MR. RYNEVELD:
21 Q. And what does that document do, sir?
22 A. Well, these are provisional regulations on
23 the application of the rules of service in the Krajina
25 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to ask you a series of
1 questions now that relate to your expertise as a
2 colonel in the army, and also in your previous position
3 as a captain in the JNA.
4 Can you tell us, sir, whether to your
5 knowledge, whether the laws of the former JNA have, in
6 fact, been more or less adopted by the other subsequent
7 armies both in Serbia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. For the most part. That is to say, all of us
9 inherited the rules and the regulations and the code of
10 conduct in the army from the former JNA, and we applied
11 them until new rules were written, which are reflected
12 from the rules and regulations of the former JNA.
13 Q. Sir, in light of the way that the conflict
14 arose, was there a lot of time for different rules to
15 be established once the conflict broke out?
16 A. In the beginning, there was no possibility,
17 and the rules of the former JNA were applied.
18 Q. And just so that we're clear about "at the
19 beginning", what month of what year are we talking
21 A. 1992.
22 Q. And the month? I'm sorry.
23 A. From the beginning of the war conflicts.
24 That is to say from April until December.
25 Q. All right.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: You meant 1992?
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. He said "1992".
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay..
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
5 Q. Now, sir, what is a commander? Can you tell
6 us what a commander is?
7 A. A commander is a certain person who has a
8 certain unit that he commands and for which he is
9 responsible, of which he takes care, which he trains,
10 and with which he carries out assigned duties.
11 Q. And when does he assume responsibility for
12 those individuals?
13 A. From the moment these soldiers come to his
14 unit, he assumes responsibility over them.
15 Q. Who can be a commander, sir? Do you need a
16 particular rank?
17 A. At the beginning of the war conflicts, rank
18 was not taken into account. What was taken into
19 account was who was capable of leading men and being in
21 Q. Now, as I understand, there is -- in Article
22 5, there is a schedule of, shall we say, the hierarchy
23 of soldiers, right from a private right up to the top
24 person. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes. That is to say, that there is position
1 according to rank, responsibility according to rank and
2 according to function. If there are no ranks, then
3 those who have the highest function have seniority.
4 That is to say that if there are ranks, who has the
5 highest rank has seniority.
6 Q. So if you have a group of soldiers, many of
7 which have no rank, but there is a corporal among them,
8 who would be in charge?
9 A. I'm sorry? What did you say, a corporal?
10 Q. A corporal, yes.
11 A. There's a problem with the translation. The
12 word "vodnik" is not corporal. A corporal is a
14 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the translation, so
15 I -- well, perhaps if you could turn with me to
16 Exhibit --
17 A. Can you repeat your question, please?
18 Q. What is the rank immediately above a private?
19 A. Corporal.
20 Q. If you have a group of soldiers and one of
21 those soldiers has the rank of a corporal, who would be
22 in charge of that group of soldiers?
23 A. The corporal.
24 Q. If you have a group of soldiers and there is
25 no one with an official rank of corporal, who would be
1 in charge of that group of soldiers?
2 A. The one who has the greatest ability to lead
3 that group of soldiers, depending on the duties and
4 assignments of that group.
5 Q. And if someone assumes control and if someone
6 is obeyed by others, if someone gives instructions,
7 gives orders, could that person be considered a
9 A. That person who issues orders is considered
10 to be a commander.
11 Q. Now, if you have a commander, to what extent
12 do their obligations as a commander exist? In other
13 words, is this during military missions or also during
14 time between missions?
15 A. At any point in time, a commander is the
16 commander of his unit.
17 Q. Is there any time when he no longer is their
18 commander, like when the mission is finished?
19 A. At any point in time, especially during
20 wartime, he is commander and he is responsible for his
22 Q. Why is there a distinction between wartime
23 and peacetime?
24 A. In wartime, the members of the unit carry
25 weapons and are in war operations, whereas in peacetime
1 weapons are in barracks and are only used -- and are
2 only used during training, without ammunition.
3 Q. During wartime, do soldiers have to be
4 available 24 hours a day?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You talked about barracks. Does it make any
7 difference if there is no official barracks but that
8 these soldiers are housed, for example in a
9 hypothetical situation, in houses or in vacant
11 A. The zone of responsibility of a unit
12 encompasses the houses within that zone as well. That
13 is to say, that personnel need not stay in barracks.
14 There were not barracks in every village and town.
15 That is to say, that every place within the zone of
16 responsibility of a certain unit is under the control
17 of that unit.
18 Q. During the outbreak of the war, do you know
19 from personal experience whether it was common for
20 soldiers to be housed in places other than formal army
22 A. When we would camp out, we would be in
23 campsites, that is to say, in barracks as well.
24 Q. So do I understand that it's not uncommon for
25 people to be in various places other than official
2 A. It is uncommon in peacetime. In peacetime,
3 the military is in barracks, and it can be put at
4 campsites and barracks as well during camping.
5 However, during wartime, the military can be housed
6 within houses that are in the zone of responsibility of
7 that unit.
8 Q. I see. Now, sir, are you familiar with
9 reconnaissance units?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you explain to us what a reconnaissance
12 unit is, and whether or not that is sort of a special
13 force, or is it a regular kind of unit?
14 A. A reconnaissance unit is a special-purpose
15 unit. Its aim is to collect intelligence, to carry out
16 certain sabotage activities, and other purposes
17 according to orders issued by the commander of the
18 unit. I am familiar with that role, because the last
19 three years of my service in the JNA I spent in an
20 armoured reconnaissance company.
21 Q. Are those soldiers -- do they often receive
22 special training?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it feasible that a reconnaissance unit
25 might be under the command of someone with a rank as
1 low as a corporal?
2 A. It's feasible, yes.
3 Q. Does it make any difference to command
4 authority or responsibility if the commander is a
5 low-level commander, holding the rank of corporal,
6 instead of an officer? And by "officer", I mean
7 someone with the rank of lieutenant and higher.
8 A. Would you repeat your question?
9 Q. Yes. Does it make any difference to the
10 issue of command authority or command responsibility if
11 the commander involved is a low-level commander, like a
12 corporal, instead of an officer?
13 A. Responsibility is responsibility. It is the
14 same for all.
15 Q. Regardless of rank?
16 A. Every rank bears its own responsibility.
17 However, if somebody is commander of a particular unit,
18 then he is responsible for that unit.
19 Q. Sir, does the fact -- in a hypothetical
20 situation, if this commander were permitted to select
21 his own men for missions, does that tell you anything
22 about his particular role or authority?
23 A. If he is given the possibility to choose his
24 men, that is to say, that his superior trusts him and
25 has given him great authority, that he can choose the
1 soldiers with whom he is going to carry out his
3 Q. Now, sir, in a hypothetical, if such a
4 corporal was in charge of a reconnaissance unit and
5 reported to a colonel in charge of a tactical unit,
6 what would that tell you about the amount of authority
7 he had?
8 A. It would mean that his immediate superior is
9 a colonel, that he reports to a colonel, and that he
10 has a high function, and that that makes it possible
11 for him to report to a colonel.
12 Q. And if such a hypothetical corporal were
13 appointed the commander of a reconnaissance group, who
14 would he be responsible for in that situation?
15 A. It depends on who appointed him. If he was
16 appointed by a colonel, as you said, he is responsible
17 to the colonel.
18 Q. All right. That's who he's responsible to.
19 Would he also be responsible for all the men in his
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Assume, in this same hypothetical, sir, that
23 there's a group of, say, up to a dozen or more men at
24 any one time that he can select from. And suppose that
25 he, for a particular mission, chooses three or four to
1 go into battle with, as it were. What can you say
2 about his responsibility for the group -- say the
3 eight, if I do the math right -- that stay behind?
4 A. Upon completing his task, when he returns to
5 that group, the eight or whatever you mentioned who
6 stayed behind is supposed to say whether there were any
7 problems and to report to their superior whether there
8 were any problems, and to report on the accomplishment
9 of the mission concerned.
10 Q. Does he remain responsible for his entire
11 unit, even though he's away for a period of time doing
12 something else?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is he also responsible for all the men in his
15 unit between missions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If it came to the attention of such an
18 individual, the corporal, that members of his group
19 were in breach of the provisions of military law,
20 including, say, breaches of the Geneva Convention, what
21 duties would he have?
22 A. He is duty bound to talk to men, and to
23 report to his immediate superior about the conduct of
24 his subordinates, and to request their suspension or to
25 have them sent away from the unit.
1 Q. Could he ask the military police to
2 intervene, to assist, say, to detain these individuals?
3 A. Yes. He can, through his superior, seek the
4 engagement of the military police to bring into custody
5 the mentioned persons.
6 Q. According to the rules and the laws governing
7 military personnel, what happens to a commander who
8 fails to take action in those circumstances?
9 A. The same commander would have to be held
10 accountable and would be replaced from that duty by a
11 decision taken by his superior, and he should be
12 assigned to another duty.
13 Q. If I change the hypothetical slightly, sir,
14 if the composition of men within this reconnaissance
15 unit was a temporary composition -- in other words,
16 that after every mission when they come back, they're
17 sort of disbanded -- would their commander still be
18 responsible for their conduct between missions?
19 A. Until they belong to -- for as long as they
20 belong do that unit, for as long as they are on his
21 list, he is responsible for their conduct and their
23 Q. If such a commander, like a corporal, visited
24 his men in these various houses or apartments, and
25 selected his men for missions while they were at these
1 locations, spent time in the house with them and --
2 what can you say about whether or not they are still in
3 barracks, as it were?
4 A. If the commander knows where his men are
5 housed, that is their base, so to speak. That is what
6 I would say. That is where he stays with them, where
7 he lives with them, where they exchange experiences,
8 where they get to know each other better. They are
9 like family.
10 Q. And if all of his men aren't housed in the
11 same location, does that make any difference?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So he could spend some time visiting some at
14 one location and then move on to visit others at
15 another location; that would still be part of his men,
16 at his headquarters?
17 A. These men are certainly within the zone of
18 responsibility of the unit under whose command they
19 are, and he can come to see all of them at these
20 different locations.
21 Q. If such a commander was aware that men under
22 his command were sexually assaulting women and girls,
23 what would his responsibility be?
24 A. It is his responsibility to report this to
25 his immediate superior and to ask for these men to be
1 reassigned from his unit and also to bring criminal
2 charges against them.
3 Q. If, in a hypothetical, this commander
4 actually participated by bringing women and girls to
5 his men from time to time, as a supposed reward for
6 them for fighting hard at the battlefield, does that
7 change his responsibility at all?
8 A. Then he's a pimp. Then he's not an officer
9 who carries out his responsibilities and duties in
10 military fashion. Then he is a person whose behaviour
11 is similar, or even worse, than that of his
12 subordinates. The commander of the unit should replace
13 such a person and punish such a person.
14 Q. Sir, I'd like to move on now to Exhibit 2,
15 which is a battle order.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Registrar, Mr. Usher.
17 Q. I'm showing you now, sir, Exhibit 2.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: And I'm not sure whether this
19 has been formally marked or not. I suspect it has, but
20 I could be -- I think it has, through --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall have it formally
23 MR. RYNEVELD: I think it's already formally
25 Is it, Madam Registrar?
1 JUDGE MUMBA: When you say "formally marked,"
2 do you mean already admitted into evidence?
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I think it happened
4 through Taj Thapa.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
6 was already marked -- already admitted as Prosecutor's
7 Exhibit -- as a Prosecutor's exhibit on the 20th of
8 March, 2000.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: And its number is?
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Its number is
11 number 2.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
13 Q. Sir, have you had an opportunity of
14 familiarising yourself with that document?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I understand that that is a battle order;
17 is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us, sir, the date of that battle
21 A. The 7th of July, 1992.
22 Q. And can you tell us what it is? What is that
23 battle order? What does it do?
24 A. Order from the commander of the Foca Tactical
25 Group to break the Gorazde siege.
1 Q. And is it clear from this document who the
2 commander of the Foca Tactical Group was?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us?
5 A. Commander of the Tactical Group Foca was
6 Colonel Marko Kovac.
7 Q. And it has a date at the top. Is that the
8 7th of July, 1992?
9 A. The date when this order was written, it was
10 the 7th of July, 1992.
11 Q. From your review of this battle order, sir,
12 can you tell whether or not it has a date when it is
13 supposed to come into effect?
14 A. On the basis of command and communications,
15 we may draw the conclusion that the communications at
16 3.00 on the 7th of July 1992 were operative. On the
17 basis of point 4 of the commander's decision, at 5.00
18 everyone was ready for attack on the 5th of -- on the
19 9th of July -- on the 5th of July -- on the 9th of
20 July, 1992. That is to say, that there was readiness.
21 Q. I don't know whether we're having some
22 interpretation difficulties, sir.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the correct
24 date, please, repeated.
25 THE INTERPRETER: There is a sound problem.
1 It is very difficult to hear the courtroom
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Is there some way that we can
4 enhance the sound quality so that the interpreter does
5 not have any difficulties?
6 Q. Perhaps, sir, if you could speak -- thank
8 A. I'll try to speak a bit slower.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: For the benefit of the
10 Chamber, if you have the exhibit, a copy of Exhibit 2
11 available, at page 4 in the English version, under
12 paragraph 8, near the bottom, there is a heading called
13 "Command and Communication."
14 Q. In your version, Witness, Colonel Nogo, is
15 that where you were finding the effective date of this
16 battle order?
17 A. Communications readiness at 0300 hours on the
18 9th of July, 1992; that is to say, when the
19 communication system was supposed to be checked out and
20 also whether the units that are involved in carrying
21 out this order can hear one another.
22 Q. All right. And on the English version, page
23 4 -- page 2, under heading 4, at the bottom of that
24 paragraph there seems to be an indication as to when
25 readiness for attack is to begin. When is that?
1 A. Readiness to attack at 0500 hours on the 9th
2 of July, 1992.
3 Q. And maybe you can, using your expertise, sir,
4 interpret for us, very simply, what the purpose of this
5 battle order was. What was the objective?
6 A. By this order, Colonel Kovac first of all
7 provided information about their enemy; then the
8 composition of the unit; his decision; and also he gave
9 assignments to units in terms of where each unit would
10 be, with the ultimate task of lifting the blockade of
11 Gorazde, breaking the siege of Gorazde, from their
12 point of view.
13 Q. So from their point of view, this battle
14 order was to be in effect until Gorazde was to fall
15 into Serbian hands; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: I note the time. I'm going to
18 be exploring this after the break, if I may.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall have our break
20 until 11.30 hours this morning.
21 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Now, Colonel Nogo, just before the break we
2 were looking at the battle order, Exhibit 2 in these
3 proceedings, and I had you indicate to us that this
4 order was to take effect, I believe, on the 9th of
5 July, 1992. And you also indicated that its purpose, I
6 take it, was to break the siege on Gorazde. Is that
8 A. Yes, its goal was to lift the siege of
9 Gorazde and to take Gorazde by the Serbian army.
10 Q. By looking at this battle order, can you tell
11 whether or not it had a time limit or is it an
12 open-ended order?
13 A. This order was written on the 7th of July,
14 1992, and readiness was to be at 5.00 on the 9th of
15 July. And there is no time limit, so it is valid until
16 the lifting of the siege of Gorazde.
17 Q. To your knowledge, sir, did Gorazde ever
18 fall? In other words, was the siege ever lifted?
19 A. Gorazde never fell into Serb hands.
20 Q. So as a result of that, did this order remain
21 in effect during the months of August, et cetera, et
22 cetera? Did it continue in effect?
23 A. According to this, yes.
24 Q. And just for clarification, I take it this
25 order is a usual type of battle order, giving
1 particular instructions to units as to what to do and
2 how to do it. Is that correct?
3 A. This is an order issued by the commander of a
4 tactical group, encompassing all the points of the
5 order and all the tasks of the various units in various
7 Q. It's with respect to that I would like you to
8 now turn your attention. Could you tell, from this
9 order, where the command post of the tactical group
10 under Colonel Kovac was?
11 A. In item 8, the command post of the Foca
12 Tactical Group was in Foca.
13 Q. So that would be Kovac's headquarters?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were there command posts in different
16 barracks in different places?
17 A. On the basis of this order, there were
18 command posts in various places.
19 Q. Are you familiar with Ustikolina?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And where is it in relation to Foca and
23 A. It is between Foca and Gorazde, on the road
24 from Foca towards Gorazde, downstream along the River
1 Q. I would like you, if you would, sir, to have
2 this battle order in front of you. And I might direct
3 the Chamber to page 3 on the English version. About
4 halfway down the page you see "Commander Post,
5 Ustikolina Barracks". Do you see that, sir, in your
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are there instructions being given by Colonel
9 Kovac to some independent detachments which are at the
10 command post at the Ustikolina barracks?
11 A. Yes. The 1st Independent Dragan Nikolic
12 Detachment is mentioned here, the 3rd Independent Zaga
13 Detachment battery of Malut-Kalut launch platform
14 vehicles, a platoon of 23 anti-aircraft guns and a
15 motorised brigade, and the second of the "J" units of
16 the Serbian army.
17 Q. Now, what is an independent detachment under
18 normal circumstances?
19 A. An independent detachment is a detachment
20 which is directly subordinated to its commander and
21 carries out its tasks independently or within the units
22 to which it is attached.
23 Q. From this order, does it appear as if the
24 leader of the Independent Zaga Detachment is getting
25 instructions directly from Commander Colonel Kovac?
1 A. On the basis of this order, yes.
2 Q. Tell me, sir, would a reconnaissance unit be
3 involved in -- could they also be involved in things
4 like clean-up or mopping up settled areas?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would a reconnaissance unit, as you've
7 discussed before, its particular make-up, be the type
8 of special-task unit that would be considered to be an
9 independent unit, or could they be?
10 A. Yes, it was possible. And their task of
11 mopping up settlements means that there is something
12 that is not known, and that is something that is done
13 by special units; that's fighting in built-up areas.
14 Q. Sir, assuming for a hypothetical that the
15 head of the Independent Zaga Detachment was, in fact,
16 this hypothetical corporal that we're talking about,
17 what can you tell us about the lines of authority or
18 reporting between the head of the Independent Zaga
19 Detachment and Colonel Marko Kovac?
20 A. It means that his functional duty was very
21 high up, and that he was responsible, and that he
22 submitted reports to the commander of the tactical
23 group, Colonel Kovac. So his functional and command
24 duty was very high up.
25 Q. Is it possible, or even feasible, that a
1 corporal could have such a functional responsibility
2 and report directly to a colonel?
3 A. This refers to functional duties, so if he is
4 the commander of an independent detachment, that is his
5 functional duty. There is no mention of rank. A task
6 is assigned to a detachment, and the commander of the
7 detachment is a commander. It is his functional duty.
8 Q. And you've earlier told us that there's no
9 difference in terms of command responsibility whether
10 or not a person holds a rank; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Just a couple more questions, sir, regarding
13 the battle order, that is. Assuming the command post
14 in Ustikolina was the command post of the Independent
15 Zaga Detachment, and further assuming that the
16 reconnaissance group was formed by picking members for
17 the detachment to make up the Zaga Unit, and further
18 assuming that the unit was led by a corporal known as
19 Zaga, what does that tell you about the relationship
20 between his rank and his command authority?
21 A. On the basis of this, he had a very important
22 functional duty. He had great responsibility. His
23 rank was neglected in this case; it was overlooked,
24 because what was important was his functional duty, and
25 his position within that independent detachment or
1 tactical group.
2 Q. Sir, I have a couple more questions that I
3 would like to ask to clarify some of your earlier
4 evidence. I neglected to ask you earlier, sir: What
5 would a commander, such as this hypothetical corporal,
6 have to do if a crime had occurred and he couldn't
7 identify the perpetrators? In other words, if it had
8 been reported to him that a crime had been committed,
9 reportedly by members of his group, and he couldn't
10 identify the perpetrator, what would his responsibility
12 A. His responsibility would be to contact the
13 military police and the security organs, to investigate
14 the case, and to take all legal measures in connection
15 with investigating the case.
16 Q. Now, I asked you earlier about soldiers under
17 his command. What if there were irregular soldiers who
18 placed themselves under the command of local units?
19 Would the same laws apply that you talked about
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What if this hypothetical corporal, prior to
23 placing himself under the command as a volunteer, had
24 gone out to recruit friends to join him in a similar
25 task, and that they attached themselves to him and
1 reported for duty; would they also fall under the same
2 military structure of command?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are reconnaissance units, such as the one
5 that we have been discussing, usually permanent units?
6 A. They can be.
7 Q. Depending on losses, I take it, or injuries,
8 or matters of that nature?
9 A. Yes, but people can be recruited from other
10 units to these units.
11 Q. So they would be recruited and assigned to
12 these units by the tactical -- like headquarters; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I see. Now, earlier, sir, I think I asked
16 you a question about when you reported to Igman, you --
17 I asked you what group you joined, and I think you gave
18 me a specific name. But I forgot to ask you, in
19 follow-up, what army that you actually joined. What
20 was the name of the army that you actually joined? You
21 gave us a specific unit.
22 A. It was then the Territorial Defence of Bosnia
23 and Herzegovina, which later grew into the Army of
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 Q. And just so that I'm clear, what exactly was
1 a Territorial Defence?
2 A. The armed forces of the former Yugoslavia
3 consisted of the JNA and the Territorial Defence. We
4 joined the Territorial Defence, the Joint Detachment of
5 Igman, which consisted of units from Territorial
6 Defence Hadzici and Territorial Defence Trnovo. And
7 with our arrival from Croatia, on our arrival, we
8 joined that unit.
9 Q. And you ultimately formed yourself into the
10 army as it was later called?
11 A. Yes. Yes, ultimately.
12 Q. Just a couple more areas. I believe that I
13 may have incorrectly directed you -- when we were
14 discussing what a corporal was and we had some
15 difficulty in the translation, I believe, with the word
16 "corporal," I asked you, sir, whether the ranks and
17 classes in the armed forces were set out somewhere, and
18 I think I may have referred to Article 5. I'm looking
19 now at Exhibit 126, Article 11. Does that set out the
20 ranks and classes in the armed forces? Do you have
21 Exhibit 126 available?
22 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. This is actually
23 the third page on the English version. If you look at
24 Exhibit 126, it's the third page along. You see
25 Article 11.
1 A. Yes, I have this in front of me.
2 Q. And just -- this sets out -- there are sort
3 of like three headings. Under heading 1, we have
4 soldiers and cadets, and then private, corporal, and
5 junior sergeant, and then a list of -- I take it those
6 are enlisted men up to sergeant; is that correct?
7 Nodding your head, meaning yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then under heading 2, we have the junior
10 officers. I take it those are like non-commissioned
11 officers, from sergeant up to warrant officer, first
13 A. Yes. Those are junior officers, those are
14 the ranks of junior officers.
15 Q. And then on the third heading, we have the
16 actual officers. First of all, on the first group are
17 the land operation officers, is that correct, from
18 second lieutenant to field marshal?
19 A. The first part refers to the army and the air
20 force, and the second part refers to the navy.
21 Q. And that starts with acting sub lieutenant to
22 fleet admiral?
23 A. It begins with a second lieutenant and ends
24 with the admiral of the fleet.
25 Q. And just so that we're clear, this Colonel
1 Marko Kovac falls in the third group of officers, is
2 that correct, and that is the same rank you now hold
3 with the Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation army; is that
5 A. He belongs to the group of officers, and he's
6 a colonel. I am now a lieutenant. My rank corresponds
7 to the rank of lieutenant colonel in the former JNA,
8 and the rank above mine in the Federation army is
9 brigadier. And then there follow the ranks of
11 Q. I see. Now finally, sir, I just want to
12 clarify one other area.
13 I asked you some distances, and I want to get
14 back to that, if I may. I believe I asked you the
15 distance, in terms of time, from the Rogoj Pass to
16 Foca, and then I asked you something else. I want to
17 break it down a little bit, if I may. Can you tell us
18 how long, in your estimate, that it would take to drive
19 between Rogoj Pass and Kalinovik?
20 A. Thirty minutes to one hour.
21 Q. And how long to Miljevina?
22 A. From where?
23 Q. From Rogoj Pass.
24 A. From Rogoj, if Rogoj-Foca is 30 to 60
25 minutes, then Rogoj-Miljevina would be 30 to 40
2 Q. All right. And between Miljevina and Foca?
3 A. About 20 minutes.
4 Q. And I think you told us earlier that this was
5 asphalt road between Rogoj and Foca. Are all of these
6 roads asphalt roads, to Kalinovik and also to
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not
9 hear the answer.
10 A. The road from Miljevina via Dobro Polje to
11 Kalinovik is an asphalt road.
12 Q. And again, just for clarification, I asked
13 you earlier whether the road was under Serb control.
14 How about these roads to Kalinovik and Miljevina; was
15 that also under Serb control?
16 JUDGE MUMBA: During what period, Counsel?
17 MR. RYNEVELD: During the period July and
18 August of 1992.
19 A. The road is an asphalt road, and it was
20 controlled by the Serb army.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm just going to check with
22 my colleagues. I believe those are my questions, but
23 they may have something for me.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: It appears they do.
1 Q. I think I may have asked this question
2 before, but I don't know if we recorded an answer. How
3 far is Ustikolina from Foca? Remember, we talked about
4 the Ustikolina barracks and the battle order.
5 A. About 14 kilometres, so about 20 minutes to
6 half an hour.
7 Q. And just so that we're clear, Ustikolina is
8 between Foca and Gorazde, in a north-easterly direction
9 from Foca towards Gorazde?
10 A. Yes. It's on an asphalt road also.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Do we have a map -- is Exhibit
12 20 perhaps -- there may be a better map. I'm not
13 sure. Yes, that should do. Exhibit 20, please.
14 Mr. Usher, could you show this map to --
15 Q. I'm not sure, sir, whether Ustikolina would
16 be visible on that map, but if so, perhaps you can show
17 us on the ELMO. First of all, do you see Foca?
18 A. [No audible response]
19 Q. Yes, you're now pointing. First of all,
20 Foca. That seems to be at the junction of those three
21 red lines on the map. Now you're moving north to a
22 location on the left side. Yes, we have a close-up.
23 And Ustikolina is actually marked just as the red mark
24 starts to bend to the right, is that correct, below the
25 number "42"?
1 A. Yes, this is it [indicates].
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it is visible.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
4 Q. One final question, sir. In the battle
5 order, the Independent Zaga Unit is given instructions
6 to do mopping up, or words to that effect. Can you
7 tell us, in military terms, what does that mean in
8 layman's terms? What does that mean? What does
9 "mopping up" mean to a soldier in wartime?
10 A. Mopping-up activities imply fighting in
11 built-up areas with remaining pockets of enemy
12 soldiers, taking prisoner those who remain behind,
13 enemy wounded, the population, de-mining, and mopping
14 up -- collecting remaining weapons.
15 Q. Does it involve searching for individuals or
16 anything like that?
17 A. You could say that.
18 Q. Finally, my final question, sir. During
19 wartime, is a soldier ever off duty, so to speak? Is
20 he ever not subject to the laws and regulations?
21 A. A soldier is a soldier, as long as he's a
23 Q. And by that, is he always subject to the
24 regulations 24 hours a day?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are my questions. Thank
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination.
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
5 Your Honour. For the sake of continuity, I shall
6 continue along the lines of the last questions that my
7 colleague put, for the sake of the transcript, and then
8 I'll go back to usual procedure.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
10 Q. Mr. Nogo, in the first part, my learned
11 colleague mentioned the distance between
12 Trnovo-Rogoj-Foca-Kalinovik. On two or three
13 occasions, he mentioned Trnovaca. Did you understand
14 "Trnovo" to be "Trnovaca"?
15 A. No. I know where Trnovaca is.
16 Q. Near Brod; is that right?
17 A. By Foca.
18 Q. How come you know the place of Trnovaca?
19 A. From the map.
20 Q. Do you know other places around Foca by the
22 A. Well, I pass there often. I know where
23 Miljevina is, Dobro Polje, Ustikolina, Foca, Brod, the
24 road to Tjentiste, Tjentiste, Scepan Polje, et cetera,
25 et cetera.
1 Q. Tell me, is there a road from Kalinovik to
2 Miljevina, one that is not an asphalt road?
3 A. Yes, there is.
4 Q. Which way does that road go?
5 A. I don't know exactly, but I think it goes
6 from Kalinovik to Miljevina and then it goes to Foca.
7 It's the old road, it's the Macadem road.
8 Q. Is that road still being used?
9 A. I did not take that road for quite some time
11 Q. Was it used during the war?
12 A. Also, I did not pass that road during the
14 Q. You said today what kind of military schools
15 you completed. Can you tell us, what is the number of
16 levels of education in the system of military schooling
17 that go above the school that you completed?
18 A. I have a university degree. I'm now talking
19 about the former JNA. In order to get the rank of
20 major in the former JNA, I would have to go to staff
21 college in order to get this rank. In order to become
22 a general, I would need to satisfy the requirements for
23 being a general. And also in order to move further up,
24 I would have to get the equivalent of a doctorate.
25 Q. Is the situation the same or similar as far
1 as the Army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina
2 is concerned?
3 A. It is not Armija; it is Vojska. That is the
4 word used for Army of the Federation of Bosnia and
6 The situation is as follows: I completed
7 staff college, or rather a staff course, in the Army of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I completed a course for battalion
9 commanders and further up above that, and it was taught
10 by Turkish instructors. This is the additional
11 education that I had in addition to the training that I
12 received in the former JNA.
13 Q. You said that you published articles about
14 military equipment and training for the use of such
15 equipment. Can you tell us how many articles you
16 published and where you published these articles?
17 A. I published three or four articles, and I
18 published them in Prvalinia. That is the newspaper
19 published by the Army of the Federation of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Should I give the titles of these
22 Q. Did you publish any works on military
24 A. The training of armoured mechanised units.
25 Q. Did you publish anything about command
2 A. No.
3 Q. The previous article you mentioned, is it
4 actually an article or is it a different body of work?
5 A. It is an article.
6 Q. Can you confirm to us that you are involved
7 in military theory, in military science?
8 A. I am involved in theory through training
9 officers, that is to say, members of the NATO alliance,
10 and I am learning the NATO doctrine and everything else
11 that it involves. So I'm talking about the MPRI
13 Q. Can you call what you just mentioned to us
14 now, what you wrote, can you call these scholarly
16 A. No.
17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence
18 is not satisfied that Mr. Nogo meets the requirements
19 for an expert witness. We believe that he meets the
20 requirements for being a witness only. Nevertheless,
21 we shall continue our cross-examination.
22 Q. I'm going to put a few questions to you
23 related to the statement that you gave to the
24 investigators of the Tribunal. Can you please tell us
25 what an armoured reconnaissance platoon is?
1 A. You mean the armoured reconnaissance platoon
2 that I was in?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. It is --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please
6 repeat his answer slower for the interpreters.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a repeat of the
8 last answer, slower? Can you speak slowly for the
9 interpreters, please, Witness.
10 A. An armoured mechanised platoon, the one that
11 I was in, rather, consists of three armoured
12 reconnaissance vehicles, the first being the BRDM 2.
13 There were two of them. And in the platoon there were
14 three motorcycles.
15 As for the weapons concerned, the BRDM 2 has
16 KPVT machine-gun, 14.5 millimetres, and also a 7.62
17 millimetres PKT submachine-gun. And also the personal
18 arms carried by the members of the crew. That is to
19 say, there are four members of the crew, and the fifth
20 one is a scout. A scout, in the sense of --
21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. There is no need to go beyond that. We have
23 already gone beyond the question that I put to you.
24 So we are talking about the period of your
25 statement related to the JNA.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did you do in the command platoon?
3 A. What command platoon?
4 Q. You were commander of a platoon, so what were
5 your powers as commander of this platoon?
6 A. I had soldiers; I had corporals, as
7 commanders of vehicles; and I also had weapons issued
8 to me, as well as military equipment. I carried out
9 training with my own personnel. I also had tactical
10 exercises with them, target practice. I went to
11 various activities for them, such as border service,
12 swimming, skiing, martial arts, and everything else
13 that is included in the training for reconnaissance
15 Q. Can you explain the difference to us between
16 a commander of a lower unit and a commander, in the
17 sense of commandant, of a higher unit?
18 A. Commanders of lower units are of squads,
19 platoons, companies, whereas commanders, in the sense
20 of commandant, are from battalions upwards; that is to
21 say, this is a more complex structure.
22 Q. Could you tell me what the powers of a
23 platoon commander are?
24 A. A platoon commander takes care of his men and
25 can discuss their disciplinary infractions with them.
1 However, he reports this to his superior, who then
2 takes action related to further procedure.
3 Q. As platoon commander, what authority did you
4 have? What were all powers that you had?
5 A. In what sense, powers?
6 Q. Could you reward and punish?
7 A. I said already that I can punish for
8 disciplinary mistakes, such as a reprimand, a strict
9 reprimand, et cetera, not to go into all of that. And
10 the rest I propose to the company commander. I propose
11 my soldiers, that is to say, my subordinates, for
12 rewards, for example.
13 Q. Can a person who is not a professional
14 soldier be a platoon commander; I mean, who is not a
15 professional officer, that is.
16 A. It was not possible in the JNA.
17 Q. Was there a school in the former JNA for
18 reserve officers?
19 A. A reserve officer is an active military
20 official. That is to say that he completed the school
21 for officers and he got commissioned; that is to say,
22 he was a sergeant.
23 Q. Yes, I agree. But could a lawyer, for
24 example, who was not an active military person, could
25 he, while doing his military service, become a
2 A. Commanders of platoons in the JNA -- well, I
3 was in an A brigade, that is to say, a 100 per cent
4 full brigade. That is to say that all positions of
5 brigade -- of platoon commanders were manned by
6 officers and junior officers. And in other brigades,
7 this was carried out by persons from the reserve
8 officers' school and by corporals.
9 Q. You said that you completed -- before the
10 military academy, actually, which school did you go to?
11 A. Secondary military school.
12 Q. So when you came to your unit, you had the
13 rank of sergeant, didn't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was the difference between you and those
16 who completed a school for reserve military officers
17 and who got the rank of sergeant?
18 A. I was an active military man, and they were
19 doing their military service and they had completed the
20 school for reserve officers. They had the rank of
21 sergeant, and upon completing their military service,
22 they would get an officer's commission after having
23 completed their first military exercise afterwards.
24 Q. Tell me, were the powers of a sergeant who
25 came from the reserve school the same as that of you,
1 as a professional?
2 A. If he actually commanded a platoon, then yes,
3 except that he would stay with the soldiers all the
4 time and I would go home after-hours. That is to say
5 that this kind of sergeant would take over command over
6 that unit when all the professional officers were away.
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence
8 has a series of questions related to his stay in the
9 JNA. However, we are going to skip those questions
10 because the Trial Chamber thought they were not
11 important. So we are going to move on directly to
12 questions related to Igman and Rogoj.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. As you please, Counsel.
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You said that your unit was called the Zagreb
16 Unit when you came to Igman. Was it on the 13th of
17 June or the 13th of July?
18 A. The 13th of July.
19 Q. And then the name was changed into Seher
21 A. The unit only changed its name into Seher
23 Q. Yes. That's what I was referring to. So why
24 was that?
25 A. Well, the Zagreb Unit fighting at Igman? I
1 mean, I'm a Bosnian, after all.
2 Q. Can we consider that this date is not correct
3 in your statement? In your statement it says the 13th
4 of June, the date when you arrived in Igman.
5 A. It is not correct in the statement, then. I
6 arrived on the 13th of July.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Which statement is this,
9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
10 this is the statement that the expert witness gave on
11 the 30th of May, 1999, and the 22nd of May.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: If you look at the statement
13 that was provided, and I think it's also attached to
14 the Rule 94 bis, it does say in the English version, on
15 page 3, the second full paragraph from the top --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: It refers to when he arrived.
18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's all
19 right, Your Honour. It's all right. I found it. I
20 had made a mistake when I copied this. I'm so sorry
21 about this mistake. It was my mistake. The 13th of
22 June. So it is correct in the statement.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: And just for the record, we're
25 talking -- the statement says the 13th of July, and
1 that's what my friend, Mr. Prodanovic, is admitting is
2 correct, the 13th of July?
3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please proceed.
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. Tell me, why did you come to Igman?
7 A. On the basis of the orders issued by the
8 office in Zagreb, we were supposed to go to Visoko.
9 But from Krupa, we were sent to Igman. So during our
10 actual journey from Zagreb toward Sarajevo, our orders
11 were changed.
12 Q. Tell me, were there military units at Igman
13 at the time of your arrival?
14 A. There were units that were self-organised.
15 They belonged to the staff of the TO of Hadzici and the
16 TO of Trnovo.
17 Q. Can you tell us how many soldiers there were
18 there altogether when you arrived?
19 A. I would not like to go into numbers.
20 Q. In your statement, you did mention numbers
21 concerning the attack on Rogoj?
22 A. I said how many men from my unit
24 Q. Very well, I understand. Did you command
25 this unit?
1 A. Yes. As I said, two platoons were moving
2 along the direction of where I was moving. One was
3 with the late Cedo Domaz.
4 Q. You said that you were stationed around
5 Mraziste. Where is Mraziste?
6 A. Mraziste is on Igman. That is to say that it
7 is closer to Veljko Polje on Igman.
8 Q. Tell me, was there a plan to take Rogoj?
9 A. Well, on the basis of what would we have gone
10 to liberate Trnovo and Rogoj otherwise?
11 Q. What was this operation called?
12 A. I got an assignment to lead the unit. I was
13 not versed into the name of this operation.
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like
15 to ask the technical people to play a video cassette of
16 two minutes and 20 seconds. The cassette speaks
17 precisely about these discussions concerning the
18 operation aimed at Rogoj.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: I see Mr. Ryneveld on his
20 feet. Yes.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 I have two comments. One is a comment, and the other
23 is an objection.
24 The first comment is we have not seen copies
25 of this video. It's not been disclosed to us. But we
1 were given this morning, prior to my putting Colonel
2 Nogo on the stand, two transcripts. One is a page and
3 the other one is two pages of, I take it, the
4 transcript of what is going to be contained in these
5 videos. With the greatest of respect, and although
6 I've made the comment we weren't given these videos in
7 advance and we haven't seen them, that is not the basis
8 for the objection, per se.
9 The basis for the objection is totally one of
10 relevance. In our respectful submission, it's totally
11 irrelevant to the proceedings that we're about to
12 hear -- that we're involved in. And perhaps the Court
13 might want to have a quick look at the transcript that
14 was provided to us because, with the greatest of
15 respect, one is called "Serbian Prisoners Singing", and
16 I take it the purpose of that is simply to show that
17 Serbian soldiers were made to sing Muslim songs. What
18 relevance has that got? And the second one is entitled
19 "Ponytail", and it appears to talk about something
20 that Your Honour has referred to and cautioned me
21 about, that we're getting into the issue of the armed
22 conflict, which has been admitted.
23 Before we expand this whole area, I'm voicing
24 my objection at this point on the basis of relevance
25 and relevance solely.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic. You heard
2 the basis of the objection is relevance. We haven't
3 seen the transcript, and what is the relevance?
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
5 the cassettes we intended to show were filmed on the
6 Rogoj Pass, and they show that imprisoned Serb soldiers
7 wore uniforms. Their uniforms are shown, the uniforms
8 of the B and H army. We are discussing the Geneva
9 Conventions here, and these cassettes show to what
10 extent these conventions were respected by the army of
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina; that they would also show the
12 commander of the Igman II Tactical Group carrying a
13 weapon that is banned by the Geneva Conventions. That
14 was the purpose of the Defence in showing these
15 cassettes, and we would like Mr. Nogo to comment on
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I see Mr. Ryneveld.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: My question remains: "And how
20 does that assist the Trial Chamber in dealing with the
21 charges before this Court?" If it's alleged that other
22 people did bad things too, let them report that to the
23 Prosecutor, and I'm sure that we would be quite happy
24 to investigate. But that is not the issue before this
25 Court at this time. It's not relevant.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: And it does not provide a valid
2 defence. We're still on relevance, Mr. Prodanovic.
3 The Trial Chamber is not satisfied.
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We consider
5 that to be relevant because this gentleman took part in
6 those operations, and we could ask him some questions,
7 showing his responsibility in all of this.
8 JUDGE HUNT: I think we've said so many
9 times, Mr. Prodanovic, during this case we're not
10 really concerned about the fault of others. We are
11 concerned as to whether your clients are at fault.
12 This does not seem to me to assist on any issue in the
13 case, including that of credit.
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well,
15 Your Honour. The Defence will respect this.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please proceed.
17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can you tell us when the battles for Rogoj
20 A. The 30th and 31st of July.
21 Q. What units took part on your side in the
22 battle for Rogoj?
23 A. The unit that I commanded, the unit from the
24 TO Trnovo staff, units from Igman, the 7th Rijeka and
25 so on.
1 Q. Were there any units from the HVO, the
2 Croatian Defence Council?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When did you take -- did you take Rogoj?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When was this?
7 A. On the 31st of July.
8 Q. Tell me, when did the Serbs get Rogoj back?
9 A. I received this information in the evening of
10 the 2nd, that Rogoj had fallen, because I was on Igman
11 at that time; on the 2nd of August, 1992.
12 Q. Did you get this information in the evening
13 or did the Serbs take Rogoj in the evening?
14 A. I received the information just before
15 nightfall, because that day I came back from Konjic,
16 where I had been to visit my men who were wounded.
17 Q. I'm asking you this because in your
18 statement, on page 3, you said the Serbs recaptured the
19 Rogoj Pass on the evening of 2nd August. That's
20 precisely what you said: "The Serbs recaptured the
21 Rogoj Pass on the evening of 2nd August." And the next
22 sentence is: "On the 3rd of August, the Rogoj Pass was
23 back in the hands of the Territorial Defence of
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that correct?
2 A. It could be a mistake in the translation. It
3 was just before nightfall when I received the
4 information, and maybe that was left out of the
5 statement. But I still say that I received
6 information, just before nightfall on the 2nd of
7 August, that Rogoj had fallen.
8 Q. Why do you consider that this is so important
9 for you, whether it was just before nightfall?
10 A. Well, I cannot be in two places at the same
11 time. It was just before nightfall that I arrived on
12 Igman, and that was when I got the information. I
13 cannot say I got the information in the morning if I
14 got it just before nightfall, and this is what I said.
15 Q. But I am quoting what you said, and that is
16 that the Serb recaptured the Rogoj Pass on the evening
17 of 2nd August. That's what you said in your statement.
18 A. I received the information that the Serbs had
19 taken Rogoj, and I received this information just
20 before nightfall.
21 Q. Did you know what Serb units took part in
22 that, in the battles around the Rogoj Pass?
23 A. No.
24 Q. The battles, did they take place at night?
25 A. At Rogoj?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. On the 2nd?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I wasn't there.
5 Q. Do you know?
6 A. Do I know whether they fought by night? No.
7 Q. Can you tell us what the weather conditions
8 were like in that period from the 13th of July up to
9 the battles for Rogoj?
10 A. It was summertime.
11 Q. It was summertime. Was there rain, was there
12 bad weather?
13 A. I would not like to answer this question,
14 because I don't remember.
15 Q. In your statement, you talked about the
16 conditions on the Rogoj-Miljevina-Foca road. How do
17 you know that there were no obstacles on that road?
18 A. The road was controlled by the Serbian army,
19 and I assume that there were no roadblocks on that
21 Q. Do you know that there were cases, on the
22 road controlled by the Serb army, that vehicles came
23 across anti-tank mines?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You said that Serb artillery was captured on
2 A. Underneath Rogoj.
3 Q. Underneath Rogoj. Were Serb soldiers taken
5 A. Yes, there were prisoners.
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Why we
7 wanted to show those prisoners and this video, Your
9 Q. How many soldiers were taken prisoner?
10 A. I don't know exactly. On the 31st of July,
11 just before nightfall, I was given orders to go back to
12 Igman, and I went back with my unit.
13 Q. Do you know that the prisoners of war were
14 humiliated and mistreated?
15 A. No.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Objection, for the record.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Prodanovic, that is
18 not relevant. We've already been through this before.
19 If the Defence or anybody has evidence that this was
20 going on by the other people, the right office is that
21 of the Prosecutor, not this Trial Chamber. That does
22 not provide a valid defence.
23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
24 Your Honour.
25 Q. After Rogoj was taken by the army of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina, were there any conflicts between the
2 HVO and the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in that
4 A. As I said, there were no HVO units taking
5 part in those operations.
6 Q. Can you tell me where personnel was
7 recruited, from where, into the army of Bosnia and
9 A. Professional personnel?
10 Q. Was it from the former JNA?
11 A. Professional personnel, just as was the case
12 with the Serb army and the HVO, came from the former
13 JNA. They were people who had gone to the school for
14 reserve officers, able-bodied men from the former
15 Yugoslavia who had done their military service, as for
16 professionals. And I have said for myself, for
17 example, that I came from Pristina, from the territory
18 of the former Yugoslavia.
19 Q. You said that in the beginning, there were no
20 ranks. Can you tell me whether officers of the former
21 JNA kept their ranks when they went over to the army of
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
23 A. No. For example, I can speak for myself. We
24 had -- I was a captain, my soldiers all addressed me as
25 "Captain", but I was simply the commander of a unit
1 without any rank. And as for other officers, some were
2 called "Major", others were called "Colonel", but we
3 simply performed our duties, and ranks were assigned to
4 us in 1993, at the end of 1993, and the beginning of
6 Q. Do you know what it was like in the army of
7 Republika Srpska?
8 A. On the basis of the documents I have been
9 shown, ranks were inherited from the former JNA.
10 Q. Would you agree with me that there are
11 commissioned and non-commissioned officers in an army?
12 A. Yes, and there are also privates.
13 Q. Can you tell me what are the ranks?
14 A. Well, private, private first class, lance
15 corporal, sergeant, sergeant first class. This is all
16 from the former JNA.
17 Q. Can you tell me whether a soldier who is a
18 lance corporal has the authority to punish soldiers?
19 A. If he is a commander, as I have said, in
20 "B"-type units, if he was a platoon commander, then he
21 was able to punish a disciplinary error by reprimand,
22 or he could take the soldier to report to his superior,
23 or he could report a soldier to his superior.
24 Q. Was this regulated by some kind of rules?
25 A. Yes, there were rules, and there was a law on
1 the armed forces.
2 Q. Tell me, in the kind of war that was waged on
3 this territory, when there are no units that are set up
4 in the very beginning, when an army is newly
5 established, can military terminology be used in an
6 imprecise way as regards the names of units?
7 A. Can you give me an example?
8 Q. Yes. I would like to ask you to look at the
9 order of the 7th of July, the one you had.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the exhibit number?
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is
12 Prosecution Exhibit number 2 I'm so sorry. Before we
13 look at this, let us just expand on what we said. Is a
14 lance corporal the commander of a detachment or of a
15 platoon, in functional terms?
16 A. What period are you talking about?
17 Q. The former JNA.
18 A. In the former JNA, a lance corporal could
19 command a squad or a platoon in the B composition.
20 Q. Very well. On page 4, paragraph 3, there is
21 a sentence that we commented on today:
22 "The Independent Zaga Detachment shall take
23 part in mopping up settled areas in the direction of
24 the 5th Battalion's attack."
25 In your additional statement you explained
1 what you meant by "detachment." Is there a mistake
2 here in this order?
3 A. I didn't write the order.
4 Q. But is there a mistake as regards the word
6 A. Well, if it is a mistake, then it is repeated
7 twice, because there is mention of the 1st Detachment
8 and the 2nd Independent Detachment. And whoever wrote
9 this order should have paid attention to this mistake,
10 if it was a mistake.
11 Q. I'm asking you this because during the
12 presentation of evidence, it was established that the
13 accused Kunarac had a group of people, 15 to 20 men,
14 and suddenly there is mention of a detachment. Do you
15 allow for the possibility of the word "detachment"
16 being used by mistake?
17 A. You have just said that I am not competent to
18 give an expert opinion because I do not have a Ph.D.
19 Now you are asking me to talk about mistakes made by a
20 retired colonel whose name is Kovac, Marko Kovac. I do
21 not wish to answer this question.
22 Q. Very well. What do you understand by the
23 term "mopping up"? Is a mopping-up operation an
24 operation which is usually carried out after the
25 advance of combat troops on terrain that has been
1 captured in a battle?
2 A. The notion of mopping up is something I have
3 explained just a little while ago, and there is
4 pursuing, there is searching of the terrain, there is
5 fighting in built-up areas. But mopping up is not a
6 military term, and the way it is put here, it just
7 means get rid of everything you find there.
8 Q. Looking at the location where the fighting
9 took place, can you tell us whether you know that there
10 were those places, those places that were in the combat
11 area where they settled, was there a population there?
12 And if they were not inhabited, would your conclusion
13 apply in that case?
14 A. On the area controlled by the Serb army,
15 there were also non-Serb inhabitants, not to mention
16 the free territory controlled by the Army of Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina. So there was a mixed population and there
18 were people who lived there and who fought for their
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The usher
21 will not need to help us anymore. Thank you.
22 Q. Tell me, is there a mopping-up operation
23 which denotes mopping up the ground in terms of
24 explosives and mines?
25 A. Here it says "Independent Detachment." It
1 does not say "Pioneer Unit," which is aimed at that.
2 This is Independent Detachment. I did not see that
3 there was a Pioneer Unit there that would demine the
4 terrain, et cetera. What it says is: "The 3rd
5 Independent Detachment will mop up the terrain," or
6 whatever it says. I do not want to quote it.
7 Q. Who carried out this -- who carries out this
8 operation of mopping up?
9 A. I said already that this notion does not
10 exist, and according to this order, it is the 3rd
11 Independent Detachment.
12 Q. Do you know what kind of VES Kunarac had?
13 A. I heard that he belonged to an engineering
14 unit, that he was specialised in mines, et cetera,
15 et cetera, explosive devices, et cetera.
16 Q. If I tell you the following, that he belonged
17 to military units in terms of his VES, can that lead us
18 to the following interpretation, that is to say, your
19 interpretation, that is, Colonel Kovac's interpretation
20 of mopping up?
21 A. I would like to go back to my own case now.
22 I am specialised in armoured mechanised units, and at
23 Trnovo I fought as an infantry man. From my answer,
24 you can deduce that everyone, irrespective of his VES,
25 or the arms or services they belonged to, took part in
1 the battle.
2 Q. Can we agree that Kunarac, as an engineering
3 man, had special tasks involved in the reconnaissance
4 of the terrain and mopping up the terrain from mines
5 and explosives?
6 A. That is your assumption.
7 Q. I'm asking you whether we can agree on that.
8 A. Yes, he could have done that. I did it too.
9 When I would get to a minefield, I would clear it.
10 Q. Is everybody trained to deal with a
12 A. Everybody had training about mines,
13 anti-personnel and anti-tank mines in the former JNA,
14 booby traps, et cetera.
15 Q. I served that army, but unfortunately I did
16 not undergo that kind of training?
17 A. I'm so sorry.
18 Q. Could this task have been entrusted to a
19 special unit or could it have been given to an ad hoc
21 A. Well, it depends. A Pioneer Unit could have
22 been used in order to get passage through a mine line
23 and also to deal with the remnants of the unit. Not
24 the entire minefield had to be demined, but also a
25 passage could be made through the minefield, that is to
1 say, which will be used by the unit in order to carry
2 out its combat operations. Also, this would mean that
3 they would know which way to go on their way back.
4 Q. In a permanent unit, does everyone have to
5 know about engineering tasks? Do they have to be
6 trained and well versed in that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you think that if soldier, like Kunarac
9 was, who had the rank of lance corporal, had led an ad
10 hoc group of soldiers, in carrying out a certain task,
11 that is to say, consisting of soldiers who were under
12 somebody else's command, was it his duty to follow
13 these soldiers after they completed their task? When
14 would the soldiers return to their own command?
15 A. While these soldiers are resubordinated to
16 him, he is responsible for them. When he returns them
17 to their original unit, then his responsibility ceases.
18 Q. Do you accept my assertion that during the
19 armed conflict it was usually the duty of soldiers to
20 be on the front line, at their positions; after a
21 certain number of days spent at the front line, the
22 soldiers would be released to go home to get what was
23 called rest, which was longer or shorter, one-day leave
24 or several-day leave?
25 A. That principle existed also in the TO of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina and later in the Army of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The people who were at the front
3 line, who guarded the front line, would later get some
4 rest, and the units that were for special purposes had
5 their special assignments.
6 Q. In your opinion, if a soldier is resting at
7 home, is on leave at home, and during this leave, if he
8 commits a crime, under whose authority does he fall, a
9 military or civilian authority, on the condition that
10 this soldier is not a professional soldier? We are
11 talking about wartime.
12 A. In wartime everybody is a professional.
13 Everybody wears weapons, everybody uses weapons. And
14 when they are on leave, his commander is responsible
15 for his behaviour. And when the commander finds out
16 that somebody committed an infraction, then he
17 initiates proceedings. He asks the military police to
18 take action and this person is brought into custody.
19 It is laws of war that prevail in wartime.
20 Q. Tell me: During the war, were there military
21 courts in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and in the
22 army of the Republika Srpska?
23 A. On the basis of documents I saw, there were
24 judges from higher courts, and I also know that there
25 was a court martial in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. Do you know -- I want you to give me a direct
2 answer to my question -- if, while a person is on
3 leave, this person, this soldier, commits a crime, and
4 this soldier is not a professional, was he to be tried
5 for that crime by a military court or a civilian
6 court? Do you know how this was regulated by law?
7 A. If a soldier commits an infraction, an
8 offence, then he is tried by military court.
9 Q. I am talking about the laws of the Republika
10 Srpska and the competencies of the military court. Are
11 you sure of that?
12 A. I think I am.
13 Q. Do you know which article regulates that?
14 A. I would not go into articles until I were to
15 see the evidence.
16 Q. Did you read the law on the jurisdiction of
17 military courts in Republika Srpska?
18 A. I read what was shown to me.
19 Q. Are the same laws applied in the situation of
20 imminent threat of war and when a state of war has been
22 A. Imminent threat of war is applied until the
23 moment when the conflict breaks out. That is to say,
24 that this was a war situation because the conflict had
25 already broken out.
1 Q. Do you know what the situation was like in
2 the army of Republika Srpska? When was a state of war
3 declared and when was there imminent threat of war?
4 A. You have all the evidence. I'm asking you.
5 Q. I'm asking you.
6 A. And I'm giving you an answer.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness --
8 A. I was a member of the TO, not of the army of
9 Republika Srpska.
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. If you don't know -- but you came here to
12 answer these questions too?
13 A. I gave an answer, but if you are unsatisfied,
14 you say so.
15 Q. Yes, I am unsatisfied. I'm asking you to
16 tell me exactly. I am putting precise questions to
18 A. Could you repeat your question, please.
19 Q. Could you tell us when a state of war was
20 declared? Was a state of war declared at all in the
21 army of Republika Srpska, and when was imminent threat
22 of war declared? I'm asking you this because of the
23 enforcement of certain laws.
24 A. I could not give an answer to that question.
25 Q. Right. So that is what you are supposed to
1 tell me.
2 Could you explain the difference between a
3 collection centre and a detention centre? You spoke
4 about that in the supplement to your statement, so
5 could you explain that further?
6 A. A collection centre and a collection centre?
7 Q. No. A collection centre and a detention
9 A. Could you please read that part of my
11 Q. Yes.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I just interject here.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: If what my learned friend is
15 referring to -- again we're having difficulty with the
16 word "statement" as opposed to Prosecutorial notes of a
17 conversation. And I think the Court has made that
18 distinction before. Other than raise it, I'll say
19 nothing more.
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Accept --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel.
22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept.
23 Q. I shall remind you: In this memorandum
24 concerning the interview you had with Ms. Peggy Kuo,
25 you said the following:
1 "Asked the difference between a collection
2 centre and a detention centre, Major Nogo stated that
3 in a collection centre, people can move around within a
4 building, whereas in a detention centre, there is
5 strict control over daily routines with set activities
6 such as bedtimes."
7 So that is the skeleton of your answer. Can
8 you explain this a bit further?
9 A. I gave an answer. I gave an answer through
10 what you have just read out.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
12 further questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
15 Honour, but I shall be very brief, and I believe that
16 my questions will fit into these remaining five
18 Before I put these few questions, I would
19 also like to join in the objection raised by the
20 Kunarac Defence that in this specific case, this cannot
21 be an expert witness, this can merely be a witness.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: As you please, counsel.
23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] For the same
24 reasons, for the same reasons that the Kunarac Defence
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:
2 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. I'm just interested
3 in a few minor things related to the reserve force and
4 regulations concerning the former JNA.
5 After doing their military service, were all
6 persons assigned to the reserve force?
7 A. First of all, I would like to greet you as
8 well. Good day to you. Salam.
9 Special persons went to reserve officer
10 school, and the rest went to school. After doing their
11 military service, most persons were assigned to the
12 Territorial Defence, and part were assigned to the
13 reserve police force.
14 Q. Tell me, what age group are we talking
15 about? What would the age limits be, the upper and
16 lower age limits for the reserve force?
17 A. After completing military service, I think
18 the age limit for reserve force was up to the age of
20 Q. So until which age were they in the reserve
22 A. Up to the age of 40. Then they would be
23 assigned to the civil defence force.
24 Q. The reserve force, or the members of the
25 Territorial Defence, as we called it, and that applies
1 to the reserve police force as well, did they, at their
2 homes, have parts of their military equipment, and
3 which, if any?
4 A. They could have uniforms, that is to say,
5 complete uniform, trousers, jackets, caps, coats,
6 overcoats, rucksacks, tents, boots. They could not
7 have weapons. I don't know if you're referring to
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot
10 follow the debate.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, please slow down. And
12 also, Witness, please wait until after counsel has
13 asked the question.
14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do apologise
15 to the Trial Chamber and to the interpreters.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do too.
17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. The members of the Territorial Defence and of
19 the reserve police force and, generally speaking,
20 military conscripts, did they have to respond to
21 call-up papers for military exercises; in practice,
22 everything that was organised for the members of the
23 Territorial Defence?
24 A. They got these call-up papers and they had to
25 respond, because on the back of this paper it said that
1 they were under legal responsibility to answer and also
2 that charges would be brought against them if they did
3 not respond.
4 Q. You said that prior to war operations, when
5 the situation was as it was in the former Yugoslavia,
6 you say that you were serving in Pristina at the time.
7 Do you know perhaps what the situation was like with
8 regard to Territorial Defence in Bosnia and Herzegovina
9 itself? I'm asking you that as a witness. If you know
10 that, fine; if you don't know, again, well and fine.
11 A. Already at that time, that is to say, from
12 the referendum on the independence of Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina, there were certain problems that were
14 later transferred, as far as I know, to the TO and to
15 the police as well. Unfortunately, there was a
16 separation. That is what I know.
17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I
18 have three or more questions left. However, since it
19 is time, it is really up to you to decide.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall adjourn, and we will
21 continue in the afternoon at 1430 hours.
22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, cross-examination
5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
7 Q. Before the break we were talking about the
8 reserves, so I would like to ask a few more questions
9 about that.
10 Persons of the male sex who were not able to
11 serve in the army because they were not able-bodied,
12 could they be in the reserves?
13 A. No, they couldn't be in the reserves.
14 Q. Did you spend a long time -- and it seems to
15 be so from your details -- in the unit, so your
16 experience must be extensive. What was the most
17 frequent reason for an inability to serve in the army?
18 A. Well, first of all, there were physical
19 disabilities; then the psychological state of the
20 person; and one could delay serving in the army while
21 studying at university.
22 Q. Very well.
23 A. So if they were physically or mentally unable
24 to serve.
25 Q. So physical and emotional reasons?
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, please pause. Yes,
2 please pause for the interpreters.
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So it could be physical or psychological,
5 including emotional reasons?
6 A. Yes. If during one's military service it was
7 discovered that a person was emotionally unfit, they
8 could be released from the army for a certain time, or
10 Q. Does this lead to the conclusion that such
11 persons would not be able to command certain groups or
12 units in wartime?
13 A. Well, one could say that.
14 Q. Thank you. The statement you made on the
15 15th of February this year to investigators of the
16 Tribunal, where you say that mopping-up operations -- I
17 said a memorandum, and not statement -- where it says:
18 "Major Nogo stated that mopping-up
19 activities follow the advance of combat troops and
20 would entail the total search of buildings, the
21 collection of weapons, and the arrest of people who
22 would be brought to the command post for interviews.
23 Pockets of resistance would be asked to surrender; if
24 not, the resistors could be shot, killed. According to
25 the Geneva Conventions, civilians would be taken to the
1 command post for interviews."
2 Is that what you said, and has this been
3 recorded faithfully?
4 A. So that was in response to a question when I
5 was asked to explain what mopping up means, and that
6 was my reply.
7 Q. So I'm only interested whether this is
8 faithfully recorded.
9 A. You mean you want me to explain what I mean
10 by "mopping up"? Well, this is the explanation I gave.
11 Q. Today during the examination-in-chief by my
12 learned colleague, the Prosecutor, you said -- or
13 rather you mentioned Huso Alic, also known as Soko.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was his position in the army?
16 A. You mean when Trnovo was liberated?
17 Q. Yes, and during your stay in Igman.
18 A. He was the chief of staff of the Joint
19 Detachment Igman. His name was Husein. He was also
20 known as Soko.
21 Q. Yes. You used a nickname.
22 A. That's right. We always refer to people by
23 their nicknames.
24 Q. You were under his command, is that right, or
25 rather you and your unit?
1 A. My unit was under the command of the Igman
2 Joint Detachment, and the commander was Aladjuz.
3 Q. Did he receive military orders in written
5 A. Yes. Commands were signed by the commander.
6 Q. I'm asking you this because you told me a
7 little while ago that in your military terminology, the
8 term "mopping up" is never mentioned, because it is not
9 a military term, if I understood you correctly.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Let me tell you that the Chief of Staff,
12 Mr. Husein Alic, uses the term in his statement given
13 to the Tribunal: "A mopping-up operation was
15 A. So, that's his statement.
16 Q. So in your army's terminology, the army of B
17 and H, you used the term "mopping-up"?
18 A. Well, if he used it, then it's used.
19 Q. I would like to ask you for some more
20 information for the sake of the Trial Chamber and for
21 all of us here.
22 On several occasions, you corrected yourself
23 in answer to questions where the term "the army of
24 B and H" was mentioned, and you said that the term was
25 not "Armija" but "Vojska". What is the difference?
1 A. Well, now, after the war, we are called the
2 Vojska of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, just as
3 the Vojska of Republika Srpska, so that is the term we
4 use because it consists of members from the territory
5 of the Federation, from all three ethnicities living
7 Q. I'm asking you this because your chief of
8 staff uses the term "Armija" and not "Vojska".
9 A. You mean my then chief of staff? He is now a
10 civilian. Alic.
11 Q. Yes, Alic.
12 A. During the war, it was called the Armija of
13 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 Q. And your chief of staff was of lower rank and
15 he was in the reserves. Can you explain how he
16 suddenly came to be the chief of staff?
17 A. The commander of the detachment was a
18 policeman, and the chief of staff was Huso Alic, as you
19 yourself have said. And I, as a captain, commanded one
20 unit, and there was another policeman who commanded
21 another unit, and there was a waiter who commanded a
22 third unit. So anyone who was able to command -- who
23 was able to be a leader of men in battle commanded.
24 Q. And, finally, I'm only interested in one more
25 thing. Do you know that after the adoption or, rather,
1 after the capture of the Rogoj Pass, was there a tank
2 that was captured with an anti-aircraft gun on it, a
3 three-barrel gun?
4 A. Yes. A truck was captured, and that truck
5 again -- and I do have this information. A young man
6 called Merim was killed on that truck, and it was
7 captured -- it was in the army of Republika Srpska, and
8 then we captured it, and then we lost it again.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very
10 much, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic or Mr. Jovanovic.
12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
13 Honour. With your permission, we have several
14 questions for this expert.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
18 Q. Good day, sir.
19 A. Good day.
20 Q. When you arrived in Zagreb, you arrived with
21 a group of people. And if I understood you properly,
22 there were 112 of you, or was that the group that set
24 A. That was a bigger group of people, but 112 of
25 us came to Igman.
1 Q. Can you tell me, if you remember, what the
2 ethnic make-up of these 112 men was?
3 A. It was like this: There were Muslims, there
4 were Croats, there were two Slovenians, and there was
5 one Frenchman.
6 Q. Thank you. If I understood you correctly,
7 and if I have read the record properly, you said that
8 in Zagreb you reported to the staff of the Territorial
9 Defence of North-Eastern Bosnia.
10 A. Yes. There was a representative office in
12 Q. I did not serve in the army and it is very
13 hard for me to find my way in all these military
14 matters, but can you tell me, according to military
15 rules, was that regulated or not? Such groups or
16 units, were they sent in this manner to areas where
17 there was fighting? Were these regular or paramilitary
19 A. That was a regular unit, and we were sent to
20 Bosnia on the basis of an order by a commission of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Zagreb.
22 Q. So, in fact, you were recruited in Zagreb?
23 A. Well, we applied to go to Bosnia in Zagreb.
24 Nobody recruited us. We signed up ourselves.
25 Q. I'm sorry. My terminology is poor.
1 A. "Recruitment" is if I call someone up, but if
2 I volunteer and say I want to go to Bosnia, then we use
3 a different terminology.
4 Q. So the closest term would be "volunteer"?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. During the examination-in-chief
7 by my learned colleague, you mentioned that the former
8 JNA, if I understood you properly, the armed forces,
9 consisted of two fundamental elements. What were they?
10 A. The JNA and the Territorial Defence.
11 Q. Was the Territorial Defence under the command
12 of the JNA? Perhaps I am not using the most precise
13 terms possible, but was JNA in charge of the
14 Territorial Defence?
15 A. The TO staff was under the command of the
16 Federal Secretariat For All Peoples' Defence, and they
17 were responsible to the Federal Secretariat Of All
18 Peoples' Defence and their task was to train the
19 reserves and to keep and look after equipment and
20 weapons for the reserves.
21 Q. Very well. I was not precise enough in my
22 question again. In case of war, of war operations, the
23 Territorial Defence of a certain territory, was the
24 army superior to it, if you know what I'm getting at?
25 A. Well, the same thing that happened to the JNA
1 happened to the Territorial Defence. There was a
2 split. People went their different ways. So those who
3 were --
4 Q. Thank you very much. You have helped me a
5 great deal, because that was my next question.
6 If I understood you properly, after your
7 arrival on Igman, you joined the units of the
8 Territorial Defence.
9 A. Yes. Bosnia and Herzegovina was then an
10 internationally-recognised state, and it retained the
11 right -- its rights over the Territorial Defence of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
13 Q. Very well, very well. Since you were in the
14 field and you are a professional soldier, I would like
15 you to clarify one matter for me. The Territorial
16 Defence that you joined, was it the Territorial Defence
17 of the former Territorial Defence or was it a
18 newly-established Territorial Defence?
19 A. The Territorial Defence of North-Eastern
20 Bosnia, with its headquarters in Zagreb, consisted of
21 some of the people who had worked in the Territorial
22 Defence of North-Eastern Bosnia, the non-Serbian
23 population, to put it like that. And the Territorial
24 Defence on Mount Igman, since Hadzici was then under
25 the control of the Serb army, it was from Pazac to
1 Tarcin and Igman, that was its Territorial Defence, and
2 the TO of Trnovo was not in its hometown.
3 Q. Thank you. Let me go back for a moment to
4 the group of people, the unit with which you arrived on
5 Igman. It consisted of 112 men?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If I understood you correctly, you were
8 appointed the commander, if that is the right word, of
9 that unit.
10 A. Yes, the commander.
11 Q. Can you tell me, with regards to the
12 establishment, how was your unit organised?
13 A. We had three platoons, and we had a
14 logistical unit the size of a squad.
15 Q. Well, we're approaching the end of my
16 questions. Let me just ask you one more thing.
17 You have told us that you had big problems in
18 arriving in Bosnia?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You submitted a request to be discharged?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I assume that you know that from the moment
23 you submit a request to be discharged, according to
24 military regulations, are you still a member of the
25 armed forces in which you are at present, until you are
1 discharged, or is it by the very fact of applying to be
2 discharged that you cease to be a member?
3 A. I am a member of the armed forces until I am
4 discharged, but I left these armed forces for certain
6 Q. So formally and legally, you would be a
8 A. No. I left the JNA because of my
10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
11 Your Honours. I have no further questions.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination?
13 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may, I have one sort of a
14 housekeeping matter that does not arise from
15 re-examination, just something I omitted to do, and
16 three questions that are arising from cross. The one I
17 omitted to do is a housekeeping matter. I forgot to
18 ask the witness to state his name for the record, and I
19 thought I should probably do that. I introduced him as
20 Colonel Nogo, but I don't think that we formally had
21 him state his name for the record.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can go ahead.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
24 Q. Colonel Nogo, would you please state your
25 name for the record. I simply forgot to ask you to do
2 A. I am Muhamed Nogo.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: The name does appear on the
4 statement, under 94 BC --
5 MR. RYNEVELD: It does.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: -- already filed? It does.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. It's in evidence through
8 a number of ways, but I understand that the procedure
9 is we normally ask a witness to state their name,
10 and --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: -- it was brought to my
13 attention that I had omitted to do that.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
15 MR. RYNEVELD:
16 Q. Just three questions, if I may, Colonel. As
17 a result of some questions by my learned colleagues for
18 the Defence, I'd just like you to clarify. They were
19 asking you about a soldier having a rest period during
20 fighting. If he is on a rest period, is he still on
21 duty during wartime?
22 A. Just as I answered a few minutes ago: When
23 submitting a request to terminate my contract with the
24 army, I was still a soldier. That is to say that a
25 person who is having a rest period is still a soldier.
1 Q. And similarly, is there any difference
2 between a rest period, as my friends used it, and
3 leave, as my friends put it to you? Is there a
4 distinction to be made in terms of the duties and
5 responsibilities of a soldier during either rest or on
7 A. Excuse me. As far as the rest period is
8 concerned, that goes for the zone of responsibility of
9 the brigade. And leave would be outside the zone of
10 responsibility of that brigade, or that unit, whatever.
11 Q. I see. And finally, again arising from
12 something my friends asked you: Could a person who was
13 not a professional soldier, such as a volunteer or
14 someone who was a civilian, could they become a squad
15 leader or even reach a higher position in the army
16 during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
17 A. It proved to be so during the war.
18 Q. As a matter of fact, in one of your answers,
19 did you indicate that one of your co-commanders of one
20 of the units was in fact a waiter in his previous
21 civilian life?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Those are all the
24 questions I have in re-examination.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,
1 for giving evidence to the Trial Chamber. You are now
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me to say
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I came here as
7 a witness, and I would ask kindly, kindly, that the
8 person -- the man from the corner, the man who is
9 accused, the one from the corner over there, he should
10 not threaten me that I would be there in that same
11 position. If I am guilty of anything, I will be tried
12 by this Court, but please, I don't want to be
13 threatened, and I don't want anyone to say anything to
14 me from those quarters. I see that nobody in this
15 courtroom noticed that, so I wish to ask the Court to
16 ask individuals not to make any threats. There have
17 been enough threats as it is.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you identify the person who
19 issued threats? Can you just stand up? Who?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person next
21 to the policeman, on the right-hand side. He used the
22 following words: "Let it be. Let it be. You're going
23 to be in this same position too."
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Referring to you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm the only
1 witness here. If he was referring to you, I do
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I don't know
6 whether you wish the record to reflect whom the witness
7 was referring to and pointing to, and the response from
8 the individual to whom he was pointing, but we can put
9 something on the record that there was an exchange and
10 there was obviously a response by the person referred
11 to by the witness.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: You heard that?
13 MR. RYNEVELD: No, but it's visible that
14 there is sign language being used.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Because, you see, Mr. Ryneveld,
16 if you're counsel and you did notice that, you should
17 have brought it to the attention of the Trial Chamber.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: No, that's not what I'm
19 referring to, Your Honour, with respect. And while the
20 witness was asked to say something to the Court, the
21 Court asked him to identify who it was. He then
22 identified the individual by referring to where that
23 one was sitting.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: And that's not on the record
1 who that might be, nor is the fact that the hand
2 gestures and acknowledgment by the --
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I see your point. Who is
4 it, according to the Prosecution?
5 MR. RYNEVELD: It is clear that it was
6 Mr. Vukovic.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Zoran Vukovic?
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Zoran Vukovic, to whom the
9 witness has been referring, and that Mr. Vukovic has
10 been making hand signals in response to the witness's
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber noted
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: All the same, thank you,
16 Witness. You are released.
17 The Trial Chamber will ask Mr. Jovanovic to
18 deal with that. The person identified is his client.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The next witness.
21 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution calls Husein
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll proceed.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness.
1 Please make your solemn declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
3 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
4 and nothing but the truth.
5 THE WITNESS: HUSEIN ALIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.
8 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
11 Q. Witness, for the record, would you please
12 state your full name.
13 A. I am Husein Alic.
14 Q. And what is your date of birth and place of
16 A. I was born on the 5th of October, 1952, in
18 Q. And which country is Rogatica located in?
19 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. Did you do compulsory military training in
21 the JNA?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. In what years did you do the compulsory
25 A. 1972, 1973. 1971, 1972, but from the point
1 of view of the calendar it's 1972, 1973.
2 Q. And how long was that compulsory service?
3 A. It was 15 -- or rather 16 months.
4 Q. And following the completion of your
5 compulsory service, did you remain in the JNA as a
7 A. Yes. I was on the reserve force of the JNA.
8 Q. And how long did you remain on the reserve
9 force of the JNA?
10 A. All the time. I was a member of the reserve
11 force of the JNA. From time to time I went for
12 practice, exercises, but I was on that force all the
14 Q. Did there come a time when your service with
15 the JNA was terminated?
16 A. Some two or three years before the war they
17 stopped calling me up. I don't know exactly now, but I
18 wasn't called up for any exercises.
19 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial
20 Chamber the type of training that you received
21 throughout the period of time you were in the JNA?
22 A. I'm qualified to be a scout with the
23 artillery units. Also, I've had training in survival
24 under abnormal conditions, and also I completed a
25 course for corporals.
1 Q. As part of your military training, did you
2 receive any lectures or information concerning the laws
3 of war?
4 A. We had compulsory classes, as it was then
5 called. This was moral and political training. That
6 meant that we had to listen to things that had to do
7 with military laws and the rights and responsibilities
8 of soldiers, et cetera. It was called military and
9 political training, anyway.
10 Q. As part of this training, did you receive any
11 instructions in the Geneva Conventions?
12 A. We did receive such instructions. This was
13 compulsory, this kind of training, once a week
14 throughout one's military service. Of course, we heard
15 about these rules and about the Geneva Convention and
16 what it meant, et cetera.
17 Q. And you say it was compulsory. Do you know
18 if this training was compulsory for all soldiers in the
20 A. Absolutely. There was no difference made
21 between any soldiers. That is to say that all had to
22 attend this.
23 Q. Do you recall anything that you learned from
24 this training regarding the treatment of civilians or
25 the treatment of prisoners of war during times of armed
1 conflict or war?
2 A. I remember that if one is in the position to
3 have a prisoner of war, according to these rules, one
4 should treat these prisoners -- that is to say that
5 these prisoners have the right to accommodation, the
6 right to medical care, the right to get food, the right
7 to establish contact with their families, and that
8 these persons should be reported to -- I don't know --
9 the Red Cross or an international organisation. This
10 refers to the military, but it also refers to the
12 Q. Do you know of any special protections that
13 were to be afforded to civilians who found themselves
14 being detained during wartime?
15 A. Civilians had to be treated the same way.
16 That is to say, they had to be provided accommodation,
17 and then after that, they had to be handed over to
18 civilian authorities, who would then deal with them.
19 Q. As part of your general military training,
20 did you receive any information about various command
21 structures and the chain of command in a military
23 A. Every soldier had to know or, rather, the
24 hierarchy was such that he had an immediate superior
25 and then the chain went upwards, if I may say so.
1 Q. And under the regulations that covered the
2 JNA, would the most senior soldier present be in charge
3 of a small unit of men?
4 A. Soldiers had ranks, and ranks -- and soldiers
5 had to behave accordingly vis-a-vis their immediate
6 superiors. Could you please be more specific?
7 Q. Let's just assume for a second that there's a
8 group of soldiers, perhaps anywhere from five to eight
9 soldiers, and they were all privates. In this group,
10 there was one corporal. Which soldier would be in
11 command of that group of soldiers?
12 A. The corporal, of course.
13 Q. Let me turn your attention now to the
14 commencement of fighting in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Do you recall approximately when the war in
16 Bosnia began?
17 A. It was the beginning of March or rather --
18 no, April, April, the beginning of April 1992.
19 Q. And do you recall where you were when the
20 fighting began?
21 A. I lived in Hadzici, a place near Sarajevo,
22 and that's where I was when the war broke out.
23 Q. At the time the war broke out, were you still
24 a member of the JNA or had they stopped calling you up
25 before the war began in Bosnia?
1 A. I already said that perhaps two or three
2 years before that, they stopped calling me up. So
3 formally, I was a member, but I was never called up.
4 That means, essentially, that I was not a member of the
6 Q. Where did you go once the fighting began?
7 A. If you are referring to the territory of
8 Hadzici, where I was then, I was involved in the
9 reserve police force. And when the town of Hadzici was
10 taken, we went to Pazaric and Mount Igman.
11 Q. And were the military forces in Mount Igman
12 organised in any way?
13 A. There were no military forces at Mount Igman
14 at the time, nor were they organised. When the war
15 broke out, we tried to organise these people.
16 Q. And when you say "these people", to whom were
17 you referring?
18 A. I'm referring to all civilians, refugees, all
19 those who were at Mount Igman for any reason; that is
20 to say, at Pazaric, Tarcin. I'm referring to all
21 refugees, also those from the territory of the
22 municipality of Hadzici, et cetera.
23 Q. In the vicinity of Mount Igman, with regard
24 to the people that you're describing, what was the
25 ethnic composition of these various people?
1 A. There were members of all the ethnic and
2 national groups, absolutely all, it seems to me, not to
3 enumerate them. So there were Muslims, Croats, Serbs,
4 some other minorities, some other peoples, et cetera.
5 Q. And which ethnic group are you a member of?
6 A. I'm a Muslim.
7 Q. At some point shortly after the fighting
8 began in Bosnia, were the forces in the Mount Igman
9 area organised into a tactical group?
10 A. No. At the beginning, no. We tried to bring
11 these people together. We tried and succeeded, to a
12 certain extent, in establishing a detachment. Then
13 when these units were brought together, then we thought
14 that we could have tactical groups set up as well.
15 Q. And approximately when was the decision to
16 set up the tactical groups made?
17 A. In June or July 1992. I don't know exactly,
18 but I think it was around that time.
19 Q. And was this part of an effort to integrate
20 and to develop effective military forces for the
22 A. Yes, precisely.
23 Q. And approximately how many soldiers or how
24 many individuals were in each of the tactical groups?
25 A. The tactical group was set up as a combat
1 formation exclusively, so the number of soldiers
2 involved in the tactical group varied from one task to
3 another. There was never permanent personnel, but
4 personnel from different detachments and staffs were
5 used from time to time. So I cannot give you an exact
6 figure. I can speak about one operation or another
7 operation, because the number varied depending on the
8 operation concerned.
9 Q. Did all the individuals within the tactical
10 group have military ranks?
11 A. No. We did not have ranks at all. Ranks
12 came in perhaps sometime around 1994, I think.
13 Q. Is it correct, then, to assume that the
14 leadership was based on functional responsibilities
15 rather than ranks, since there were, in fact, no ranks?
16 A. Yes, precisely. We did not have ranks, but
17 we had functions, duties, like commander, chief of
18 staff, commanding officer, et cetera.
19 Q. How many tactical groups were formed in the
20 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. I can talk about the area that I was in.
22 There were two tactical groups up there. That was
23 Tactical Group I and Tactical Group II.
24 Q. And which tactical group were you assigned
1 A. Tactical Group II.
2 Q. And what was your responsibility, your
3 functional duty, with respect to Tactical Group II?
4 A. I was chief of staff of this tactical group.
5 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the
6 usher, I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 23,
7 which is a map. This exhibit was also marked as
8 Exhibit 23 in the binders that were provided to the
9 Trial Chamber and the Defence counsel prior to trial.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
11 MR. MUNDIS:
12 Q. Witness, are you familiar with the area that
13 is indicated on the map which is Exhibit 23?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you please indicate on this --
16 A. Yes, yes, yes.
17 Q. Can you please indicate on this map which
18 area Tactical Group II was operating in during the
19 summer of 1992?
20 A. Tactical Group II. Tactical Group II had its
21 zone of responsibility; that is to say, TO. Hadzici,
22 Lidja, Hrasnica, Trnovo and Kalinovik.
23 Q. That would be on the western or left-hand
24 side of the map marked as Exhibit 23?
25 A. Yes, yes, it's this part here [indicates].
1 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the
2 Rogoj Pass. Can you briefly describe for the Trial
3 Chamber the strategic and tactical importance of that
5 A. Rogoj Pass, to my mind, is the most important
6 mountain pass in Eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina. Who has
7 the Rogoj Pass under his control, has under his control
8 all developments in that area. It was important for us
9 to take the Rogoj Pass for several reasons. I can talk
10 about our immediate objectives and our long-range
12 Our immediate objective was to take Mount
13 Rogoj, because we would cut off the communication on
14 the other side; Sarajevo, Kalinovik, Foca and further
15 on. And we got, in this way, a communication route
16 toward Eastern Bosnia, which made it possible for us to
17 link up with forces from Eastern Bosnia. Also, it
18 ensured unhindered passage to the refugees. In this
19 way, conditions were created -- that's what we
20 thought -- for lifting the siege of Sarajevo, and that
21 was our basic objective.
22 Q. In July 1992, which forces controlled the
23 Rogoj Pass?
24 A. The Serb forces.
25 Q. Approximately how far, by road, is it from
1 the Rogoj Pass to Foca?
2 A. Perhaps about an hour, an hour and ten
4 Q. That would be driving?
5 A. Yes, yes, that's what I meant.
6 Q. And do you know what type of road it was, the
7 road from Rogoj Pass to Foca?
8 A. It was a road that was always one of the main
9 roads, so to speak. In peacetime, it was the main road
10 from Trnovo to Kalinovik and Foca.
11 Q. Was this a paved asphalt road?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And was the entire length of that road from
14 Rogoj Pass to Foca controlled by the Serb forces?
15 A. Yes. Yes. And not only from Rogoj, but also
16 from Trnovo. Practically from Sarajevo all the way to
18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. Usher, you can return to
19 your seat.
20 Q. Mr. Witness, can you please --
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you switch off the lights,
22 Mr. Usher, from the ELMO desk, please.
23 MR. MUNDIS:
24 Q. Witness, on July 31st, 1992, did Tactical
25 Group II make an effort to liberate the Rogoj Pass?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What time did the fighting begin on July
3 31st, 1992?
4 A. We started the attack sometime in the
5 morning. I have to explain this. We started the
6 attack simultaneously, an attack on the town of Rogoj,
7 but actually -- actually, the town of Trnovo. And our
8 objective was the Rogoj Pass. So we started that
9 attack in the morning. During that time our units went
10 to the Rogoj Pass. They managed to arrive there
11 unnoticed. And after some short fighting, the pass was
13 Q. At that time, on July 31st, when Rogoj Pass
14 was first taken by your forces, did you have any type
15 of heavy military trucks?
16 A. We did not have any military trucks at the
17 time. The only thing we used were civilian trucks that
18 we were using for transporting personnel and perhaps
19 some smaller technical equipment.
20 Q. Did you -- at the time the battle for Rogoj
21 Pass commenced on July 31st, 1992, did you have any
22 heavy artillery or any heavy armoured vehicles?
23 A. We did not have any heavy armoured vehicles,
24 but we did have two howitzers, with a total of six
25 shells. And we also had three mortars. That was all
1 the artillery we had.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Again, Mr. Mundis, please bear
3 in mind the relevance to the charges against the
4 accused. We seem to be going into the details of the
5 armed conflict.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, again in line with
7 what the Prosecution did this morning with Colonel
8 Nogo, we are anticipating the Defence alibi, and I will
9 move as quickly as possible to the relevant sections
10 and finish with this witness.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
12 MR. MUNDIS:
13 Q. Mr. Alic, during the course of that initial
14 fighting on July 31st, 1992, did your forces capture
15 any military equipment from the Serbian forces?
16 A. We captured, I can say, an enumerable number
17 of pieces of equipment: batteries, self-propelled
18 tanks, mortars, ammunition. Only in one house we found
19 a million bullets. That is to say that the booty was
20 enormous; vehicles, et cetera.
21 Q. Let me draw your attention specifically to
22 the vehicles. Did your forces capture approximately
23 ten heavy military trucks?
24 A. In one place only, we took ten military
25 trucks that were used for transporting these
1 105-millimetre howitzers that I already referred to.
2 This was only at one location, and since this is a
3 large area, there was even more of it.
4 Q. Did your forces also capture anti-aircraft
5 artillery weaponry?
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar?
7 Wait, Witness.
8 Yes, Mr. Kolesar.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in
10 spite of what the Trial Chamber said, that we should
11 stick to the relevant facts, I understand that the
12 alibi of the accused Kunarac is being brought into
13 question; however, what was taken into terms of weapons
14 and equipment, I think that all of this is irrelevant,
15 and therefore I would kindly ask that the questioning
16 be continued according to the guidelines provided by
17 the Trial Chamber.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Mundis, any relevance?
19 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution
20 anticipates that as part of the line of alibi defence
21 that the accused Kunarac will rely upon, that it will
22 be very relevant with respect to one piece of military
23 equipment that the Prosecution contends was captured by
24 the Bosniak forces, which was later recaptured by the
25 Serbian forces. It's a rather lengthy composition,
1 but --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but --
3 MR. MUNDIS: -- it is our position that it is
4 certainly relevant, and it will become more relevant
5 once the Defence puts on its case. Since the witness
6 is here, rather than recalling the witness, the
7 Prosecution would respectfully ask for a slight bit of
8 indulgence so that we could pursue this line of
9 questioning, which I don't anticipate to take much
10 longer than five to ten minutes.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
12 MR. MUNDIS:
13 Q. Mr. Alic, again, your forces had captured an
14 anti-aircraft -- or a series of anti-aircraft artillery
16 A. That's right. We took -- I don't know the
17 exact number, but we took several -- they are called
18 PAT/1/2/3/4. These are anti-aircraft guns with one,
19 two, three, or four barrels.
20 Q. Do you know the approximate calibre of these
22 A. [Inaudible] millimetres.
23 Q. Were any of these anti-aircraft guns that you
24 had captured mounted onto any of the trucks that you
25 had captured?
1 A. As soon as these weapons were captured, as
2 well as these trucks, we mounted one of these
3 three-barreled guns so that we could use it
4 immediately, since Rogoj was already ours, so that we
5 could use it to fortify our positions at Rogoj.
6 Q. And was only one of these trucks so equipped
7 with the seized anti-aircraft artillery?
8 A. Only this one truck was sent to the Rogoj
9 Pass, and that is where this gun had been mounted.
10 Q. Did your forces, after capturing this truck,
11 paint any distinctive markings or any kind of
12 military-designated emblems on this truck?
13 A. It should be borne in mind that combat was
14 going on all the time. Fighting never stopped.
15 Shelling never stopped. There wasn't enough time, and
16 it didn't really occur to anyone to do something like
17 that. I'm sure that none of us wrote anything on it.
18 Q. Did the truck have any markings before your
19 forces, or at the time your forces captured it?
20 A. These trucks had JNA emblems with
21 characteristic plaques that were used before the war.
22 So what we did was take off these plaques and use these
24 Q. But due to time constraints, you didn't have
25 time to repaint the vehicles or to paint any
1 distinctive markings on the vehicles?
2 A. The moment we captured these trucks, and when
3 we had to reinforce our positions at Rogoj, immediately
4 we used them, straight away. That's a very short
5 period of time, and you could not even think of doing
6 anything like it. After all, it wasn't necessary
7 either, because they were already painted camouflage.
8 Q. On August 2nd, 1992, did the Serb forces
9 retake the Rogoj Pass?
10 A. Yes, exactly.
11 Q. Do you know approximately what time this Serb
12 offensive began?
13 A. This was sometime during the night, or during
14 the evening hours. So in the morning of the 2nd of
15 August, Rogoj was once again under the control of Serb
17 Q. Now, when you say the fighting began sometime
18 during the night or during the evening hours, would
19 that be the night of the 1st of August or the night of
20 the 2nd of August?
21 A. Yes, precisely. I'm referring to the night
22 of the 1st of August, or between the 1st of August and
23 the 2nd of August. So in the morning of the 2nd of
24 August, the Rogoj Pass was once again under the control
25 of Serb forces.
1 Q. Do you recall approximately what time you
2 were informed that the Rogoj Pass had fallen back into
3 Serb hands on the 2nd of August?
4 A. At that time I was not at Rogoj; I was at the
5 command post at Igman, and I heard about this piece of
6 news sometime during the night.
7 Q. During the night of the 2nd of August?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Do you know or were you informed what
10 happened to the truck that your forces had captured on
11 July 31st, 1992, the same truck that you had mounted
12 the anti-aircraft artillery on?
13 A. As I already said, we used that truck in
14 order to reinforce our positions at the Rogoj Pass. I
15 remember very well the crew. Merim Beratic was on the
16 crew of that vehicle. And when we recaptured the Rogoj
17 Pass, we found the body of Merim Beratic massacred.
18 Q. Do you know if the Serb forces recaptured
19 that military vehicle during the fighting on the 2nd of
20 August, 1992?
21 A. Yes, that vehicle was captured.
22 Q. Do you know how many other military vehicles
23 under the control of your forces were captured during
24 the fighting on the 2nd of August, 1992?
25 A. I think that it was the only vehicle at the
1 Rogoj Pass. Of course, there were artillery pieces
2 that we had captured from the Serbian side, and then
3 the Serbs recaptured it. But if you are asking about a
4 vehicle, I think that was the only vehicle.
5 Q. And did Tactical Group II then successfully
6 liberate Rogoj Pass for the second time on August 3rd,
8 A. Yes. We knew that if we allowed the Serbian
9 side to fortify itself again, we would not be able to
10 achieve a surprise effect, so in the night of the 2nd
11 to 3rd of August, we decided to attack again and try to
12 capture the Rogoj Pass, and we were successful in this.
13 Q. Following this attack on the 3rd of August,
14 1992, how long did your forces control the Rogoj Pass?
15 A. Until -- I don't know -- 1993, when the Rogoj
16 Pass and Trnovo and all of Mount Igman fell.
17 Q. Finally, Mr. Alic, while you were in the
18 vicinity of the Rogoj Pass, were you ever approached by
19 Muslim female civilians regarding exchanges?
20 A. After the fall, or the capture of the Rogoj
21 Pass, I visited the lines we had reached, and I was
22 approached by a Muslim woman who had been sent from
23 Kalinovik, and they had kept her two children there and
24 they had sent her with a proposal for exchange. It was
25 a letter offering an exchange. It was very vague.
1 Q. Did this woman describe for you the
2 conditions at either Kalinovik or Foca?
3 A. She -- as far as we talked, she told us
4 everything she knew. The woman was afraid. She spoke
5 about reprisals that had been taking place on those
6 days and before that and after that. And she had two
7 children, so she was being blackmailed, but she did
8 talk about it.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Witness. The
10 Prosecution has no further questions at this time.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Any cross-examination?
12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
13 Your Honour.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
15 Q. Good day, Mr. Alic.
16 Did you go to military school?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What schools did you go to?
19 A. Primary, secondary, and the University of
21 Q. Do you consider yourself to be an expert on
22 military matters?
23 A. I cannot consider myself an expert.
24 Q. Have you published anything about military
1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you tell us whether you remember, did you
3 talk to the investigators of the Tribunal as a witness?
4 A. Of course I did.
5 Q. Can you tell us when this was?
6 A. I don't know what you are referring to. This
7 is the second time I'm here before this Tribunal. Do
8 you mean this?
9 Q. Yes, of course.
10 A. Can you just tell me what you are referring
11 to, because I talked to them last year and now I am
12 talking again.
13 Q. You made a statement, is that true, to
14 investigators of the Tribunal then?
15 A. Would you please be precise? What are you
16 referring to, what statement and what period of time?
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please, Counsel. Refer to
18 it, the date and all the particulars we usually need,
19 so that the witness is properly directed.
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
21 we received from the Prosecution a witness statement,
22 and the witness talked to investigators of the Tribunal
23 on the 3rd of June, 1999, and on the 23rd of November,
24 1999. The interviewers were my learned colleague Madam
25 Hildegard and Madam Peggy Kuo, and I would like this
1 statement to be shown to the witness so the witness can
2 identify it, because in the Defence's submission, there
3 are major discrepancies in what the witness said in his
4 statement and what he said today. I will be very
5 precise. This refers to Rogoj.
6 I will respect the ruling of the Trial
7 Chamber that we should only discuss relevant matters.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please, Counsel. Go
9 ahead. Can we have a number, Madam Registrar?
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
11 will be Defence Exhibit 69.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection to its being
13 admitted into evidence from the Prosecution?
14 MR. MUNDIS: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. You may proceed.
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Please look at the English version. On the
18 English version, is your signature there? This is the
19 Bosnian version.
20 A. Yes, I have the English version as well.
21 Yes, these are my signatures.
22 Q. Would you now please look at the Bosnian
23 version? Does your statement consist of five pages?
24 A. The last page is a witness acknowledgement.
25 If that's how you're counting it, yes.
1 Q. Is this your statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at
4 page 2, the fifth paragraph.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: How does the paragraph begin?
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] "Fighting
7 took place in the area of Rogoj and Trnovo on 31st
8 July. "
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Then you can go on to your
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] "... and 1st
12 of August, 1992."
13 Q. Have you found it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. "Rogoj was important as a link between
16 Sarajevo and the forces in Gorazde and to break the
17 Sarajevo blockade. On the 31st of July, 1992, TG II
18 captured the Rogoj Pass and, on 1st August, conducted
19 mop-up operations. On the 2nd of August, the Serb
20 forces attacked, and by nightfall" -- I underline "by
21 nightfall" --"had recaptured Rogoj."
22 Do you observe the difference between what
23 you said today and what you said in your statement?
24 A. I see the difference, although it seems
25 unimportant to me. When I was making this statement, I
1 did not think for a moment that I had to be precise as
2 to the exact times. I think this is not important.
3 What is important is that on the 2nd of August -- and
4 it's true I made a mistake here -- the Serb forces
5 already had Rogoj under their control. And it's true
6 that there is a difference, it's true, but I tell you
7 it seemed unimportant to me.
8 Q. It's very characteristic that you and the
9 expert who was here before you have made different
10 statements now than you made in your statements
11 before. Is this an accident?
12 A. Sir, I can speak for myself. When I made
13 this statement, I was not prepared and I did not
14 consider it to be very important. Later on, knowing
15 about all this, I talked to survivors who were there,
16 and together we tried to recall the dates.
17 Throughout this time, I have been trying not
18 to think about that period of time, and now I'm
19 expected to remember whether it was day or night.
20 Q. Yes, I understand you completely, and there
21 are no doubts about this. But to the Defence, this
22 detail is relevant, and we are concerned because both
23 the expert who was here before you and you have changed
24 your statements in relation to what you said before.
25 A. Well, I will try to say it again.
1 After I made this statement -- and at that
2 time, this did not seem to me to be so important -- I
3 talked to my friends; for example, to Mirsad Catic, who
4 was a commander at the time, and I was the chief of
5 staff. And we tried to remember when all this was and
6 where everybody was, and then we arrived at these
7 dates. That's what it's all about.
8 It's quite possible that this is very
9 important to you, that to you it's an important fact,
10 but it wasn't important to me at the time.
11 Q. I understand you. So do you stand by this
13 A. I have just said a little while ago -- and
14 this is what I would like to change -- on the 2nd of
15 August, Rogoj was already under Serb control. So this
16 is the difference, because I know it started in the
17 night, and this is actually the night between the 1st
18 and the 2nd. And on the 2nd, the Rogoj Pass was under
19 Serb control.
20 Q. What do you say? What can you answer? When
21 I say that an expert was here two or three hours ago,
22 to my question as to whether there was fighting at
23 night, he said decidedly there wasn't, and now you are
24 saying there was fighting at night?
25 A. May I reply?
1 Q. Yes, please.
2 A. Well, during the night, just before
3 nightfall, the fighting began, the attack started. I
4 wasn't there at the time, so this is what I understand,
5 during the night. Well, of course, there is no further
6 activity during the night because it's impossible, so
7 what happens is that people remain at the lines we have
8 reached. But as far as I'm concerned, Rogoj fell at
9 night, and I received the news at night.
10 Q. How am I to understand you? What is
11 correct? We had an expert today who said there was no
12 fighting in nighttime, and you said there was. When
13 did Rogoj fall? When did the Serb forces take over
15 A. They took Rogoj in the night between the 1st
16 and 2nd of August, and in the morning hours the Rogoj
17 Pass was definitely under the control of the Serb
18 forces. The fighting started the today before and went
19 on until night fell, and by night we had lost it. And
20 after nightfall, there was never any military activity.
21 Q. Where were you when the battle for Rogoj took
23 A. You mean the first attack?
24 Q. From the 31st to the 3rd.
25 A. From the 30th or 31st and the 1st, I was with
1 the units to liberate Trnovo and Rogoj. After that, on
2 the 1st, I was completely exhausted and I had a rest
3 period, so I was not present when Rogoj fell and I was
4 not present when it was recaptured.
5 Q. When did they tell you that Rogoj had fallen
6 under Serb control?
7 A. It was in the night of the 2nd of August.
8 Q. Of course, I have to express my doubts,
9 because the witness who spoke before you also said that
10 he had been informed during the night, and he said
11 something quite different when he made his statement.
12 A. I cannot speak about what he said. I can
13 only tell you when I received the news.
14 Q. You said here that a mopping-up operation had
15 been conducted. What do you mean by "mopping up"?
16 A. Collecting all the material and equipment
17 captured, removing possible minefields, collecting
18 intelligence, fortifying the lines, securing the area
19 to make it safe for the return of both soldiers and
21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
22 Honours, I have no further questions. The Defence
23 will, during its presentation of evidence, prove when
24 Rogoj was captured through Commander Mirsad Catic
25 because we will tender this into evidence, and we are
1 very concerned about this kind of testimony.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Kolesar.
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
4 the Defence of the accused Kovac has no questions for
5 this witness.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Madam Lopicic.
7 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, the Defence of the
8 accused Mr. Vukovic does not have any questions for
9 this witness. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination? Any
12 MR. MUNDIS: Just two questions, Your
14 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:
15 Q. Witness, do you recall where you were when
16 you received word on the 2nd of August, 1992, that
17 Rogoj Pass had fallen?
18 A. I was at the command post in the Borik Hotel
19 on Mount Igman.
20 Q. Do you recall how you found that information
22 A. The vehicle driving along that road, there
23 was a soldier, in fact a courier, who brought the
25 MR. MUNDIS: Just a moment, please.
1 [Prosecution confers]
2 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further
3 questions for this witness, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, thank you.
5 Thank you very much, Witness, for giving
6 evidence to the Tribunal. You are now released.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we did
10 actually not anticipate that we would be that fast this
11 week, and therefore the next witness, Mr. Subasic,
12 will, as I think, will need an entire day next week.
13 We can only present him next Monday. He is not
14 available here in The Hague and we have no possibility
15 to bring him here tomorrow. Therefore, we don't have a
16 witness for tomorrow, and we anticipate that he will
17 testify on next Monday. Dr. Cleiren will testify on
18 Tuesday. And then we are actually finished for that
19 week also. And the last witness, that is, the Witness
20 105, will then come after the break on the Tuesday, and
21 that would then be the end of the Prosecution case.
22 Unfortunately, we cannot -- we are not able to present
23 Mr. Subasic tomorrow.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: So that means tomorrow we shall
25 have no proceedings?
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Until Monday?
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. It's
4 unfortunate, but we couldn't plan that.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Jovanovic, may I suggest
8 that you have a talk to your client over the break.
9 The reactions of an accused person in court can be
10 relevant in many ways. Sometimes their reaction to the
11 evidence of witnesses which has been given against them
12 may indicate their acceptance of its truth. Their
13 reaction to the evidence of witnesses may be relevant
14 to their credit should they subsequently give evidence
15 themselves. Your client has certainly not hidden his
16 reaction to the evidence of some of the witnesses in
17 this case, particularly some of the female witnesses
18 who have given evidence against him.
19 Whether or not what is alleged to have been
20 said by him to Colonel Nogo should strictly be
21 described as a threat, this type of conduct on his part
22 may very well tell against him, so I suggest that you
23 should give him a very strong warning that he should
24 behave himself in court and not to exhibit this sort of
25 thing, because it may turn against him in the trial.
1 Do you understand?
2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
3 Honour. I shall follow your instructions, and that was
4 my intention. Thank you.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Due to the non-availability of
6 Prosecution witnesses, the proceedings will adjourn,
7 and we will continue on Monday, 0930 hours.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
9 at 3.53 p.m., to be reconvened on
10 Monday, the 28th day of May, 2000,
11 at 9.30 a.m.