1 Tuesday, 13
2 [Pre-Defence Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 --- Upon commencing at 3.30 p.m.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will continue with the
6 Status Conference. The Trial Chamber would like to
7 find out from the Defence counsel. We had our informal
8 discussions the last time before the Prosecution case
9 was closed, and I did indicate that those were mere
10 formal discussions in preparation for what the Defence
11 were likely to present to the Trial Chamber at this
12 Pre-Defence Status Conference. So I've already
13 referred to 73 ter and 65 ter (G) and that we're going
14 to combine the two for lack of time so that the
15 preparations can go under way.
16 I would like to ask first Mr. Prodanovic if
17 there are any changes, other than what the Trial
18 Chamber was informed during the informal discussions on
19 the preparation for the Defence case.
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
21 Honour. We only have a supplement with respect to the
22 last conference.
23 We wish, at the end of our case, to bring in
24 an expert who will discuss the implementation of the
25 Yugoslav law, and it's especially criminal law, and the
1 punishments for rape in the former Yugoslavia. So
2 everything that I mentioned with respect to the accused
3 Kunarac remains valid with this detail that I have just
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Except that you do
6 have the other expert witnesses, and perhaps we may
7 deal with that in more detail regarding Rule 94 bis as
8 to when you can file their statements in view of the
9 fact that we have already had some dealing with that
10 during some motions during the Prosecution case.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
12 if we accept July 10th as the established date, then we
13 could honour this by that date and send the filings
14 21 days prior to commencement of the Defence case. We
15 could then send in, file the statements of those expert
16 witnesses, and that I hope we will be able to honour
17 this obligation during this week.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: If I may indicate, the Trial
19 Chamber has decided that all the filings under
20 Rule 65 ter, particularly (G), should be done by the
21 Defence by the 22nd of July. This is the normal
22 filings. I'm sorry. June, actually. Thank you for
23 the correction. By the 22nd of June, and this will
24 give the Prosecution a week before we open the Defence
25 case on the 3rd of July, but I would like to point out
1 that if it's not possible to bring the experts within
2 July because of filing or whatever, we can hear them
3 later in the course of the Defence case.
4 We wouldn't like to hold the Defence case
5 simply because the experts can't appear in July. The
6 Defence case, depending on the witnesses, may continue
7 after July, but if your experts are ready for July and
8 have specific dates they wish to be heard because of
9 their other programmes, then the Trial Chamber will be
10 quite happy to have those dates either today or later.
11 Before we go into that, perhaps I should
12 indicate that once we open the Defence case on the
13 3rd of July, we intend to sit that day up to 1230
14 hours, from 0930 to 1230 hours only. Then the
15 proceedings will continue on Tuesday the 4th from
16 0930 to -- the usual hours that we've been sitting,
17 morning and afternoon.
18 We will sit through to the 13th and 14th. We
19 have a Plenary, 13th and 14th July. The reason the
20 Plenary was rescheduled to 13th and 14th July is
21 because there may be problems with accommodation for
22 witnesses in The Hague, because we understand that
23 there is a jazz festival or something during those
24 days. So we avoided sitting on those dates.
25 So during that week beginning 10th July, we
1 will simply sit on the 10th, 11th, and 12th.
2 Thereafter, we will shall continue on the 17th of July,
3 throughout that week and the following week, up to the
4 27th of July. After that, the Tribunal takes the
5 break, and the proceedings for the Defence will
6 continue on the 11th of September. The 11th of
7 September. That is after the August break. The first
8 week of September the Trial Chamber will not sit. We
9 will continue on the 11th of September. So from the
10 27th of July, then continue on the 11th of September
11 until we complete the Defence case. So that gives you
12 the dates.
13 Yes. I've been reminded that during those
14 days when we will be sitting, if there will be need for
15 any break, we'll consider the application or we'll
16 consider the matter, but the intention of the Trial
17 Chamber is to try as much as possible to sit throughout
18 July and then continue in September.
19 So maybe, Mr. Prodanovic, with the guidance
20 on the dates, you may continue.
21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
22 I'm just calculating the days in my head. We can
23 honour all of the obligations. I presume that we can
24 submit this week the findings of the expert witnesses.
25 Now, whether this is in accordance with the 21 days
1 requirement before July, you know, this is what I'm
2 calculating now in my head, because this does change or
3 influence our -- the concept, the plan that we had,
4 because if you remember, last time we stated that after
5 the opening statement, as far as the defence of the
6 accused Kunarac is concerned, we intend to bring
7 Mr. Kunarac as a witness, and certainly we do not know
8 whether other accused will be brought out as witnesses
9 as well.
10 So after that, our intention was to continue
11 with the expert witnesses, and this is how we directed
12 all of our efforts, and we insisted that the expert
13 witnesses complete all of their findings and they have
14 been completed. So we can, during this week,
15 definitely provide those expert findings to you.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The earlier the Defence
17 can deal with all that, the better for the Trial
18 Chamber, because that will give us enough time.
19 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld. I'm sorry.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: No, just a point of
21 clarification. As I heard my learned friend being
22 interpreted and as I read it on the transcript, I don't
23 know whether my friend is thinking the 21 days has to
24 be accomplished before the 3rd of July. Obviously,
25 it's 21 days before the calling of the witness. But I
1 don't know whether that might alleviate his concern. I
2 just thought I would ask for clarification on that
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, thank you.
5 Mr. Prodanovic, I'm sure you've taken the point. You
6 may proceed.
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
8 Honour. I think that we can honour this requirement of
9 21 days prior to the expert witnesses being brought
10 here, although I have to say that this has created a
11 certain confusion among us because we made plans in
12 accordance with the old schedule. We expected the 10th
13 of July to be the beginning date. However, we are
14 aware that those dates and schedules may be changed,
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because that was primarily
17 a Prosecution trial schedule, really, because we were
18 not aware that the Prosecution would drop that many
19 witnesses during the course of their case. Now that
20 they've done so, that's why we've brought forward the
21 dates, and I'm sure that opening the Defence case on
22 the 3rd of July, as you have already indicated, would
23 not present many difficulties.
24 And when we are talking about 21 days for the
25 experts, really it's for the Prosecution's benefit.
1 And I'm sure it wouldn't be too much for the Trial
2 Chamber to ask the Prosecution, within 24 hours, to try
3 and comply with whether or not they would put in notice
4 if they wished to cross-examine the expert witnesses if
5 the filing and the calling of the witness was less than
6 21 days.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: We would certainly do our best
8 to accommodate. As you say, the 21 days is for our
9 benefit. If we could do it within, we wouldn't insist
10 on the full 21 days, if we could accomplish our
11 objectives sooner than that.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, particularly if the expert
13 witness statements can be filed perhaps within this
14 week. That would be very helpful.
15 Yes. You may proceed, Mr. Prodanovic.
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, that's
17 all I had, Your Honour.
18 When I mentioned July 10th, what I had in
19 mind as well was also the preparation of our opening
20 statements, which certainly requires an amount of
21 time. So somehow all of the dates now have been
23 JUDGE HUNT: Except for the fact that you
24 have had almost two weeks off, and we did say, before
25 we adjourned, that you should be working on your
1 Defence case. There has been a series of broken
2 hearings over the last two weeks, which has given you
3 plenty of time to work on those sorts of things.
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will
5 honour whatever decisions the Trial Chamber may adopt.
6 I also wish to add that the Defence of the
7 accused Kunarac, as well as the Defence of others, we
8 do not want the Trial Chamber to take this request of
9 ours to move the schedule up -- we do not want you to
10 see this as an obstruction of justice, because we have
11 put in a lot of effort and we, in the Defence of Kovac
12 and Vukovic, we want our Defence case to start
13 smoothly. We do not want to have any errors in that.
14 So we hope that you will not see this as an obstruction
15 on our part. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: No, certainly not. Thank you.
17 That's all for the Defence of Mr. Kunarac.
18 Yes, Mr. Kolesar.
19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
20 with respect to what I said in informal session, there
21 are no new details in the Defence of the accused
22 Kovac. For the information of the Trial Chamber and
23 Prosecution, our opening statements are almost
24 completed, the expert findings as well.
25 However, I cannot share the opinion of my
1 learned colleague Mr. Prodanovic, the counsel for the
2 accused Kunarac. I do not think that we can agree with
3 the 3rd of July as being the beginning date, due to
4 technical reasons.
5 We do not want to put the Prosecution in a
6 difficult situation by not honouring the schedule, and
7 the Defence and all of the witnesses and experts that
8 are to come here have been planned based on the old
9 schedule dating from January of this year. So
10 basically we have prepared everything for the 10th of
11 July, and I'm almost positive that we cannot abide by
12 the new prescribed schedule and bring the witnesses and
13 experts on time. Basically, now we are putting
14 everything earlier by one week, and I would appeal to
15 the Trial Chamber to be understanding and not
16 reschedule our Defence case for the 3rd of July.
17 As far as the Rule 65 ter (G) and (F) is
18 concerned, we are able to honour the 21st of June and
19 do everything we're supposed to do in accordance with
20 Rule 65. However, we do plead with you to abide by the
21 old schedule.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, how can you
23 possibly say that you have been planning since the 10th
24 of January, or whenever it was, to commence your case
25 on the 10th of July? That just can't be so.
1 You have been given something like a month's
2 free time between the end of the Prosecution case,
3 except for today's witness, and the 10th of July. Now,
4 that is more than enough for you to be prepared to be
5 here on the 10th of July. I'm sorry, the 3rd of July.
6 Mr. Prodanovic has the running on the 3rd of
7 July. You won't be having any running for some time,
8 when you open your case. You have a lot of time, and
9 unless there is some real problem that you have in
10 being here on the 3rd of July, then there is no problem
11 with you being ready to present your case after
12 Mr. Prodanovic has finished his case.
13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
14 think we did not understand each other or there was a
15 problem with interpretation. I never stated, in fact,
16 that I planned to begin the Defence case on the 10th of
17 July. What I said verbatim is the following: We were
18 giving the schedule at the end of January, and in that
19 schedule it was stated that the trial was supposed
20 to -- the session was supposed to continue on the 10th
21 of July. I did not state that I planned to commence my
22 case on the 10th of July. This was a -- we had a joint
23 plan of the Defence to first bring on the experts that
24 will give statements for all three accused. Those were
25 the joint expert witnesses.
1 This is simply an appeal on my part, and it
2 is up to you to make a decision with respect to it.
3 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar. The Trial
5 Chamber will proceed and have the Defence case start on
6 the 3rd of July.
7 The point is Mr. Kunarac's Defence will
8 start, as you have already been told, and that the
9 joint expert witnesses, since the statements will be in
10 already -- and it's up to the Prosecution to
11 indicate -- that will be dealt with at the time when it
12 comes later, because you may not find it even necessary
13 to examine in chief. But that does not mean that you
14 will still not have your own time to open your own
15 Defence case for your client. The Trial Chamber will
16 accommodate you accordingly.
17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I understand,
18 Your Honour. Thank you.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Yes. You did indicate
20 that you adopt what you said in the informal
21 discussions about how many witnesses and the course of
22 your defence case.
23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
24 Honour, but you will see this in the filing in
25 accordance with the Rule 65 ter (G).
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour?
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Just before we move away from
5 Mr. Kolesar, I do believe that he indicated in the
6 informal discussions that he would indicate today, in
7 response to the Chamber's request, in terms of whether
8 or not Mr. Kovac is anticipated to be testifying. Is
9 that something that Mr. Kolesar might advise us of
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
12 Mr. Kolesar. I'm sorry, I forget that you
13 have to wait for interpretation. Yes, Mr. Kolesar, if
14 you may, please.
15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The Defence of
16 the accused Kovac has not made a definite decision as
17 to whether Mr. Kovac will be brought out to testify.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's all right, Mr.
19 Kolesar. You can inform the Trial Chamber any time
20 before you open your defence case.
21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I understand,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
25 I do not have much new to add to what I stated last
1 time in our informal meeting here.
2 What perhaps would be of most interest to you
3 and of what I could inform you presently is that the
4 Defence of Mr. Vukovic has made a decision not to bring
5 out Mr. Vukovic to testify. So this is something that
6 we can inform you of with certainty, both you and our
7 colleagues on the Prosecution team.
8 The terms for our filings will be honoured.
9 We will do it within the schedule given by the Trial
10 Chamber, and we will do this in accordance with the
11 Rules and prescriptions.
12 Right now I do not have anything to add and
13 in order to avoid being redundant. However, I would
14 like to pose a question -- to ask for a clarification
15 from the Trial Chamber.
16 During the break between two sessions, the
17 Defence received a letter, a motion from the Trial
18 Chamber which states, as far as I could understand,
19 that the character witnesses for the accused would not
20 be brought here but only their statements would be
21 filed here with the Tribunal, and their statements
22 would be used as evidence.
23 The Defence, with respect to that, has a
24 suggestion to the Trial Chamber and appeals to the
25 Trial Chamber to make a decision with respect to this.
1 We entirely understand the reasons behind
2 this view of the Trial Chamber. However, the Defence
3 believes that it would be useful that if there are
4 several character witnesses proposed by the Defence, we
5 believe that for the procedure itself and in order to
6 hear a live witness, as we call it, that it would be
7 good if the Trial Chamber would allow one of those two
8 witnesses to appear before the Trial Chamber and to
9 state personally what they have. We believe that this
10 would be of assistance to the Trial Chamber and to the
11 entire procedure.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Jovanovic, in terms
14 of fairness, the Trial Chamber will accede to the plea
15 by the Defence. We can hear one character witness, and
16 if there are three or four, please file signed
18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Anything else?
21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Nothing else,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Any matters by the Prosecution
24 before we rise, because this is the closing of the
25 Pre-Defence Status Conference.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: I haven't thought of anything,
2 but I see my colleagues conferring. Might I just check
3 to see what that is before I reply?
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Is the Court considering
8 perhaps indicating a time period in which the
9 statements of the character witnesses might be filed in
10 the event character witnesses are not purely character
11 witnesses but, in fact, sometimes allude to other
12 matters that we might want to check out on? I wonder
13 if you would consider giving a deadline for filing.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you for raising
16 that, Mr. Ryneveld. I think the Trial Chamber will be
17 generous and to give the Defence perhaps two weeks
18 after the 3rd of July for character witness
19 statements. Of course, the Trial Chamber will be
20 available for any extensions or if any problems arise.
21 The Senior Legal Officer will always be available
22 during the break for communication of any matter to the
23 Trial Chamber.
24 So formally it will be two weeks after the
25 3rd of July for character witness statements, if any.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: One final question, if I may.
2 I think I understood the Court's schedule correctly but
3 just looking at a calendar, when the Court indicated
4 that we start on the 3rd and sit till 12.30 only on the
5 3rd and then recommence on the 4th with the usual
6 sitting hours, does that include Monday to Thursday as
7 normal sitting hours and does not include the Friday?
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Monday to Thursday.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: That's what I thought, but I
10 thought I should ask.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. I think it's better
12 to clarify. And then the 13th, which is a Thursday, we
13 will not sit because of the Plenary.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Then if there is need for any
16 other adjournments, the Trial Chamber will announce as
17 the days come.
18 Now that we've come to the end of the Status
19 Conference, the Trial Chamber will adjourn until
20 formally the 3rd of July when it is expected that the
21 Defence will open their case, in particular the defence
22 of Mr. Kunarac.
23 The Court will rise.
24 --- Whereupon the Pre-Defence
25 Conference adjourned at 4 p.m.