1 Tuesday, 13
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Registrar,
7 please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case
9 IT-96-23-T and IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please
12 make the solemn declaration.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the witness,
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
16 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
17 and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS 105
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.
21 Is the microphone for the witness on?
22 THE USHER: Yes.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.
24 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
25 Q. Good morning, Witness.
1 A. Good morning.
2 MS. KUO: May I ask whether the translation
3 booth is able to hear the witness.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth has a
5 problem. If you give us just a second, please.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: I understand the English booth
7 can't hear the witness. Can you greet the witness
8 again. Are the headphones working, Mr. Usher? Can you
9 hear me?
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The
11 technicians are currently working on the voice of the
12 witness. It is very soft, so it would help if the
13 witness would speak in front of the microphone and
14 would speak more clearly.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good morning, Witness.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I
18 would like to have this witness shown Exhibit 230 and
19 ask that Exhibit 230 be entered into evidence.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the formal
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is
23 Prosecution Exhibit 230. It is tendered under seal.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
25 MS. KUO:
1 Q. Witness, on Exhibit 230, do you see your
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Underneath your name, do you see your birth
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Next to your name, do you see "FWS" and then
8 a number, "105"?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you understand that for the rest of the
11 proceedings, you will be referred to only by that
12 number, 105, and not by your name; do you understand
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Witness, in 1992, where did you live?
16 A. In Foca, in the hamlet of Mjesaja.
17 Q. Were you married?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where did your husband work?
20 A. In Maglic, on the road.
21 Q. Did you have any children?
22 A. Yes, two.
23 Q. How old were they?
24 A. The son was twelve and the daughter seven.
25 Q. Did you work outside your home at that time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. What ethnicity are you?
3 A. Muslim.
4 Q. In the hamlet of Mjesaja, did Muslims and
5 Serbs live together or did they live apart?
6 A. The Muslims were in the village and the Serbs
7 were in the outlying areas, so they were close.
8 Q. Do you remember when the war started in Foca?
9 A. In Foca, either on the 7th or the 8th,
10 somewhere around there. I'm not sure, but around that
12 Q. And when I said "when the war started in
13 Foca," I'm referring to Foca town. What did you --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What did you see when the war started or when
16 the war was ongoing in Foca town?
17 A. One could hear shooting and see the houses on
19 Q. Do you know when Foca town fell?
20 A. Perhaps seven or eight days later.
21 Q. Do you know who took control of Foca town?
22 A. I believe it was the Serbs.
23 Q. During the time there was fighting in Foca
24 town, was there fighting in your village of Mjesaja?
25 A. No. The attack on our village took place on
1 the 3rd of July of 1992.
2 Q. Before the 3rd of July, 1992, were you
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What were you scared of?
6 A. I was afraid of what then happened on the 3rd
7 of July.
8 Q. After the Serbs took control of Foca town,
9 did you still remain scared, after the fighting in Foca
10 town had stopped?
11 A. Yes, I continued to be scared. In fact, it
12 never stopped. And the surrounding villages' turn
13 came. We saw them burning, and then it was our turn.
14 Q. Before your village was attacked, were you
15 living in the village or had you moved somewhere else?
16 A. During daytime we were in our homes and at
17 night we slept in the woods.
18 Q. Did you feel you were in any special danger
19 because you were Muslim?
20 A. Well, yes.
21 Q. Are you able to describe why you felt that
23 A. Because I was afraid. I was anxious. I
24 don't know how to explain it.
25 Q. Was your husband and your children also in
1 the woods with you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was your husband a civilian or a soldier
4 during this time?
5 A. He was a civilian.
6 Q. Were there any non-civilians hiding in the
7 woods with you or were they all civilians?
8 A. All were civilians, so far as I know.
9 Q. You mentioned that Mjesaja was attacked on
10 the 3rd of July, 1992. Could you describe what
11 happened on that day?
12 A. On the 3rd of July, early in the morning,
13 around 6.20 -- it was around that time, 6.20 -- we were
14 still asleep in these makeshift tents made of plastic
15 sheets. We heard the first shot that rang out.
16 Apparently they killed a man who got up early to light
17 a cigarette. Then we started fleeing wherever we
18 could, and I started in one direction with my husband
19 and children in a larger group of women and children.
20 And we kept fleeing, kept running, but it was harder
21 and harder to run. They started shooting after us. We
22 stopped while they were busy with these makeshift
23 tents. We didn't get far. They caught up with us.
24 They started shooting at us. Somebody from the group
25 said that we would surrender, that they would kill all
1 the children, because there were a lot of children
2 there. Then we were surrounded by them. They
3 immediately started abusing men, beating them.
4 Q. Witness, could you tell who was shooting and
5 attacking you?
6 A. Serbs.
7 Q. How were they dressed?
8 A. They were all wearing camouflage uniforms.
9 They had some bandannas. Most of them had beards.
10 Almost all of them were wearing crosses around their
11 necks, at least those at whom I dared looked. They
12 were all armed.
13 Q. Were you able to recognise any of them?
14 A. No. I did not know these men. I was not
15 born in Foca. I knew very few people, and I could not
16 recognise anyone.
17 Q. Do you know if they were from Foca or from
19 A. There were our neighbours from Foca among
20 them and, I don't know, there may have been others as
22 Q. Did you later learn the names of any of those
23 soldiers who participated in that attack that morning?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you tell us their names or nicknames,
2 A. Well, Gojko Jankovic, who I assume was the
3 leader there because I personally saw the soldiers
4 addressing him. And during my detention he admitted
5 that to me, that he was involved in it. I also
6 recognised, that is, later learned that Tuta was there,
7 because he was easy to recognise; he had tattoos all
8 over his body. And that's what I know about the people
9 who were in our village.
10 Q. Did you learn Tuta's real name?
11 A. I'm not sure.
12 Q. Witness, you said that the soldiers started
13 to abuse the men. Can you describe what they did,
15 A. Well, from what I saw personally, they beat a
16 young man, with a rifle butt, on his head, and they
17 were putting out cigarettes on another, and I didn't
18 dare look much.
19 Q. Did they say anything while this was
20 happening, the soldiers or the men being beaten?
21 A. People were not saying much. If they were
22 asked something, they responded. But they were cursing
23 and they were saying -- they were cursing Alija and
24 they said, "Did you vote for the SDA? Let Alija help
25 you now," and they kept cursing.
1 Q. What happened after they abused the men?
2 A. They first told us to come down from the
3 woods to a clearing further down, and they lined us up
4 there as if they were going to execute us. That is how
5 they lined us up. They separated out the men. There
6 were seven of them, and three were killed up in the
7 woods. I witnessed that. And they separated these
8 seven men. Among them was my husband. I was only
9 holding my children by their hands. I didn't dare
11 Then they told us to move on down towards the
12 village. We may have covered about a hundred metres or
13 so. We saw the first house which was on fire. A shot
14 was heard. They told us to lie down. They said, "You
15 see, your people are shooting at our people. If
16 anything happens to any one of us, we'll kill you
17 all." They continued to curse, but I thought that what
18 the shooting was was they were shooting at our men, and
19 that is what had happened.
20 We continued, and some soldiers were in front
21 of us, some soldiers were behind us. We went through
22 the village and we saw that they were all burning, and
23 this is how I saw my house too.
24 Q. Now, when you said you heard a gunshot, was
25 it one shot or was it a burst of gunfire?
1 A. There were bursts of fire.
2 Q. Do you know what happened to those seven men?
3 A. I learned later that they were all killed and
4 someone buried them. Some of the former Serbian
5 neighbours buried them there in that spot. That is
6 what we heard later.
7 Q. Did you ever see your husband again?
8 A. Never.
9 Q. Now, you mention that you had seen three
10 people killed earlier before you came into the
11 clearing. Were those all men or were there women as
13 A. There were two women and a man.
14 Q. As you walked through the village and saw
15 houses burning, could you describe which houses were
16 burning? Are you able to recognise them?
17 A. Yes, I recognised them. I know those houses.
18 Q. Were they all Muslim houses?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were there people who were unable to hide in
21 the woods with you who had to stay behind inside those
23 A. Yes. There were old people who could not
24 walk. They stayed in their homes, and that was the end
25 of them. Some were brought out of their homes and were
1 killed, and some burned in their houses.
2 Q. Did you see that yourself or did you learn
3 about it later?
4 A. I did not see that. I learned about that
6 Q. Do you know approximately how many people
7 were left in those houses in your village?
8 A. I only know -- I don't know that. About 30
9 people were killed in our village on that day. I don't
10 know in what ways, but that was the number.
11 Q. Just to clarify, was that 30 who were in the
12 houses or 30 including the seven men and the three
13 others who were killed in the woods?
14 A. Yes, all, including everyone. I was
15 referring to all.
16 Q. Witness, at the point when you were being led
17 by the village and you saw your house burning, how did
18 you feel?
19 A. I thought that they were taking us to shoot
20 us, myself and my children. That is how it felt. And
21 I thought that my husband was also killed up there, so
22 I thought whatever happens to the house.
23 Q. So the fact that your house was burning, you
24 were indifferent to that because you thought you would
25 be killed; is that right?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Where were you taken?
3 A. They first took us to Buk Bijela. That was a
4 place where they were going to do some construction, I
5 think some dam. There was a motel with some prefab
6 houses. I don't know how many there were, and that is
7 where they first brought us. And again they lined us
8 up like they did in that clearing, but now in front of
9 these prefabricated houses. And they took us in for
10 interrogation, as they called it.
11 When they took me to interrogation, they
12 first asked for gold, so they first frisked us. In
13 one -- so they first looked for my gold in one room and
14 then for interrogation in another room. They asked who
15 had arms, who was in the SDA party. And a man was
16 lying on a couch. I wasn't looking there; I didn't
17 dare. Later, I learned that this was Gojko Jankovic.
18 Q. Witness, when you were taken for this
19 interrogation, were you taken alone or with anyone
21 A. Alone.
22 Q. And who took you?
23 A. These soldiers in uniforms, the ones that I
24 didn't know who came down from our village with us.
25 Q. And you described being frisked. Can you
1 describe what exactly they did?
2 A. In Buk Bijela, when they were allegedly
3 looking for gold -- I don't know how I should describe
4 that. I had a period at that time. They may have
5 noticed that, so they let me go, even though some other
6 girls and women were raped at that time.
7 Q. Who was searching you? Who was searching
8 your body? Were they men or women?
9 A. A man. I was body-searched by Tuta, the man
10 with tattoos.
11 Q. What parts of your body did he touch?
12 A. Everywhere.
13 Q. And you said he might have noticed that you
14 had your period. Did he put his hands between your
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were you raped at Buk Bijela?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you told why or do you know why?
20 A. I don't know why. They didn't tell me.
21 Q. Do you know if other girls or women were
22 raped at Buk Bijela?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How do you know that?
25 A. I know because they confided in me later in
1 the school building, so later I learned that.
2 Q. And without mentioning any names, if you
3 could look at the exhibit, the piece of paper in front
4 of you, there are two pages. Could you give us the
5 number or initials of the people who confided in you
6 and said they had been raped at Buk Bijela?
7 A. 87, 74.
8 Q. How did they and the other girls and women
9 look when they came back from their so-called
11 A. The girls would be crying, in tears. And we
12 had waited for 87 quite a while; the bus was waiting.
13 She was kept in longer, and she came back crying.
14 Q. Looking at that list again, do you see the
15 name next to the number 75?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was 75's uncle also at Buk Bijela with you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember what happened to him?
20 A. He was in front of our eyes, asked some
21 questions, and then he was taken between those
22 prefabricated buildings. Then we heard a shot, and he
23 never came back.
24 Q. After Buk Bijela, where were you taken?
25 A. First we got on a bus, and then they took us
1 to Foca, and then we stopped in front of the MUP
2 building, and we waited for perhaps several minutes.
3 I'm not quite sure exactly how long. During that time,
4 soldiers went into the MUP building and then came
5 back. They probably asked where to take us. Then we
6 were taken to the high school building.
7 There, first, we entered a large hall where
8 one of the uniformed men gave us a speech. He was
9 quite a tall, strong-looking man. And he promised us
10 that we would be protected there, that nobody would
11 harass us, that we would be given food, and simply said
12 that we would be safe there, but that wasn't how it
14 Q. Do you remember that person's name?
15 A. I think it was Mitar.
16 Q. In what way did you not feel safe there at
17 the high school?
18 A. I didn't feel safe because I saw that there
19 was a lot of soldiers there. There were a lot of them
20 there on the ground floor. They were coming in, going
21 out, entering our rooms, abusing us. We had two
22 wounded women and a child with us, and they would come
23 in, ask, "Are the Serbian bullets hurting you? See how
24 Serbian bullets are hurting people." They were
25 offending us, cursing Alija and saying, "Well, there
1 you go with your SDA. You voted for SDA and let SDA
2 help you now," and addressing us with those words.
3 Q. Your first day at the high school, was
4 anybody beaten or killed?
5 A. I'm not sure about whether it was on the
6 first day, but a day or two later a man was beaten, but
7 nobody was killed.
8 Q. While you were kept at the high school, were
9 you fed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What were you fed?
12 A. Well, we could help ourselves to pasta
13 mostly, bread, as much as you wanted. We had three
15 Q. Where were you kept in the high school?
16 A. In a classroom. We were all together in a
17 classroom on some kind of sponges, foams.
18 Q. Do you remember how many of you there were
19 when you first arrived at the high school?
20 A. When we got there I'm not quite sure how many
21 of us were there, but I do know that two days later
22 another group from our village came in, and altogether
23 there were 47 of us, and three people were brought in
24 from another village, a woman and two men.
25 Q. Do you remember what village that was when
1 the last of those people were brought in?
2 A. They were not the last ones to come in. They
3 were the ones to come into our room, our classroom, and
4 then people were brought in later into other rooms.
5 They were from the surrounding area of Foca. I can't
6 remember. I can't remember right now what was the name
7 of that village. Srnetici was the name of the place
8 where 12 people were brought in from later on. And as
9 far as those three are concerned, I can't remember.
10 Q. Witness, while you were detained at the high
11 school, did soldiers take women and girls out?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you describe what would happen when the
14 soldiers would take women and girls out?
15 A. Well, they would simply come in, harass,
16 curse, and then pick who they like, take them out
17 overnight and bring them back in the morning.
18 Q. Do you know what happened to them when they
19 were taken out?
20 A. I do know some things, and there are things I
21 don't know too. I know for sure that they had been
22 raped every time they were taken out and that's all.
23 Q. Looking at the list in front of you, could
24 you give us the numbers or initials of girls who were
25 taken from the high school and raped?
1 A. Yes. 105, 87, DB, 75, 50, 88, 48, 95, ZG,
2 74. That's all.
3 Q. Now, you mentioned your own number among the
4 people taken out. Can you tell us when you were taken
5 out and by whom?
6 A. I don't know the exact date, and I don't know
7 the name of the young man. He was young, tall, and had
8 longer hair in a ponytail.
9 Q. Where did he take you?
10 A. He took me to another classroom.
11 Q. What did he do when he took you to that
13 A. Well, he did what he wanted, but I had to
14 accept that as well. He raped me and -- I don't know
15 how to proceed.
16 Q. Witness, I know it's difficult for you to
17 describe this, but the Court needs to know specifically
18 what you mean when you use the word "rape."
19 A. Well, I don't know. It's hard to say. He
20 forced me to have sex.
21 Q. Did he put his penis in your vagina?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did he also put his penis in your mouth?
24 A. Not that one.
25 Q. But other times when you use the word "rape,"
1 perhaps you can tell us specifically what you mean,
3 A. Well, what I mean is -- it is difficult to
4 talk about this. Well, it's hard to talk about this.
5 They would always -- this would be repeated. In the
6 mouth, they would put their penises in the vagina.
7 That's it.
8 Q. Now, this particular rape that occurred when
9 you were at the high school, you never told the
10 investigators from the Tribunal about this before
11 yesterday; isn't that right?
12 A. Yes, that's right, but I can't always
13 remember everything. But, unfortunately, there's a lot
14 of that truth that I simply will not be able to speak
15 about as long as I live.
16 Q. Do you know why you had not mentioned this
17 incident before?
18 A. Well, perhaps I'd forgotten at the moment
19 when I was giving a statement. I don't know. Perhaps
20 it's normal that I can't remember everything.
21 Q. Witness, do you -- you mentioned the numbers
22 of the girls and women who were taken out of the high
23 school. Do you know the names or nicknames of the
24 soldiers who took them out?
25 A. I just know that at the high school -- I know
1 the nicknames. Tuta used to come to the high school,
2 and also somebody named Zaga, who would take out
3 girls. He or his soldiers would take them out.
4 Q. How did you learn Zaga's name, or nickname,
6 A. Well, the girls, when they would come back,
7 would mention that nickname.
8 Q. Did you yourself see Zaga at the high school?
9 A. No. Perhaps he was there, but I did not know
10 him at the time.
11 Q. How long were you kept at the high school?
12 A. I'm not sure about the exact date. Perhaps
13 13 to 15 days, or thereabouts.
14 Q. During that time, did you feel free to leave
15 the high school on your own?
16 A. No, we never felt free, because the soldiers
17 were constantly around us. So I don't know what you
18 mean by "feel free."
19 Q. What affect did the fact that there were
20 soldiers around you have on you? Did that scare you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you feel like this was a detention centre
23 or merely a collection centre?
24 A. It felt like the worst prison.
25 Q. After those 13 or 15 days at the high school,
1 were you taken somewhere else?
2 A. Yes. They put us on a truck with a fabric
3 roof, so we weren't able to see where they were taking
4 us; we didn't see anything. We were taken to Partizan
5 Sports Hall, and they told us they were taking us to
6 this Sports Hall called Partizan Sports Hall. And so
7 we were taken there on a truck.
8 Q. Were you told why you were taken there?
9 A. No. No, I don't remember.
10 Q. Compared with the high school, how were the
11 conditions at Partizan?
12 A. Ninety per cent worse.
13 Q. Can you tell us in what way?
14 A. Yes, I can. We were provoked more there,
15 raped more. Women and girls would be taken out more
16 frequently. There was less food. We had no conditions
17 to keep our personal hygiene. We had simply cold water
18 available to us. They would bring us food erratically,
19 whenever they felt like it, maybe small amounts of
20 bread for children and some very clear type of soup.
21 Sometimes it was perished foods that they gave us, and
22 so on.
23 Q. Were there guards at Partizan?
24 A. Yes. Yes, they meant a lot to us, because we
25 were not allowed to leave. And when soldiers that were
1 taking us out were coming in, then they were not an
2 obstacle, because they were able to come in whenever
3 they wanted.
4 Q. Did the guards prevent anybody from coming in
5 to Partizan?
6 A. Never.
7 Q. You described that women and girls were raped
8 while you were kept at Partizan. Can you describe how
9 that happened?
10 A. Well, that would happen every night. There
11 was not a single night when they didn't take out
12 girls. They would be taking out girls first, and then
13 when another group would arrive and there were no more
14 girls left, then they would be taking out young women.
15 But as days went by, the situation became worse, and
16 during the last ten days it was the worst. I don't
17 think that I spent a single night with my children. We
18 were taken out every night and brought back in the
20 While the girls were taken out -- I don't
21 remember what date it was -- and they never came back.
22 This happened while we were staying there.
23 Q. When you say "girls were taken out and never
24 came back," do you remember who those girls were? If
25 you could just give us their numbers, please.
1 A. 87, DB, 50. I think I mentioned 75
2 previously. A girl numbered 50 came back one or two
3 days later; I'm not sure. And then her mother
4 approached a Serbian woman who took care of her up
5 until the time when we left, and she was the only girl
6 that came out with us when we departed. But those
7 other three, we never saw them again while we were at
8 the sports hall.
9 Q. When 50 came back, did she tell you what
10 happened to the other girls, where they were taken?
11 A. She didn't know -- we asked her, but she
12 didn't know. She was taken into another direction.
13 She knew that they were taken away, but she didn't know
14 where, where to.
15 Q. You mentioned that you were also taken out
16 for rape. Are you able to say how many times you were
17 taken out while you were detained at Partizan?
18 A. Not exactly. But in the beginning, I was
19 taken out mostly every evening, and during the last
20 days, I was taken out every evening. I can't tell you
21 exactly how many times I was taken away and how many
22 times I was raped. I don't know. I couldn't tell you
23 the exact number.
24 Q. I'm going to ask you about some specific
25 incidents when you were taken out for rape, and also
1 some specific people, if you remember them.
2 I'll ask you first if you're able to give us
3 the names or nicknames of any soldiers who took you out
4 of Partizan.
5 A. I remember personally the nickname Tuta. He
6 would be coming there most frequently. He would never
7 come alone but with his soldiers. Then I remember the
8 nickname Zaga, the nickname Srce, and Gojko Jankovic,
9 whom I've mentioned previously.
10 Q. Let's start with the person whose nickname
11 you gave us, Zaga. Do you remember when he took you
13 A. I remember that night. I don't know what
14 date it was, but it was about 2.00 or 3.00 in the
15 morning. I don't remember how it came that I and
16 several other women were not taken out prior to that.
17 And then a group of soldiers came in, maybe three or
18 four of them, and we didn't really dare look. And in
19 addition to that, it was dark.
20 They asked young women to get up, younger
21 women to get up, because there was some older ones as
22 well, and so we just kept quiet. And then they said,
23 "Stand up or we'll shoot." And then somebody -- I
24 didn't see because it was dark, but somebody shot at
25 the ceiling there among children and among all of us
1 present there, and then we had to stand up. And then
2 we were taken to Aladza House, and when I entered there
3 for the first time, I saw Zaga. I suppose it was him
4 because the soldiers addressed him. He selected [name
5 redacted] -- sorry.
6 Q. You can give the number.
7 A. I apologise. 48.
8 Q. What did Zaga do with 48?
9 A. I don't know, because the other soldier
10 immediately took me to another room, and I remained
11 there the rest of the night up until the morning.
12 Q. Can you describe the soldier who took you
13 into a room?
14 A. Yes. He was somewhat short, chubby, and he
15 had black, straight hair, short hair.
16 Q. Did you learn his name or nickname?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What did that soldier do to you that night in
19 that house?
20 A. They always demanded me to undress
21 completely, to undress and be naked. Then they harass
22 us as they please and as they like.
23 He put his penis into my mouth. They were
24 dirty, drunk. They would put it into the mouth, into
25 the vagina, and do whatever they want.
1 Q. What -- in addition to you and 48, who else
2 was taken to that house that night?
3 A. ZG, 95, and 48, and myself.
4 Q. Are you able to describe where this house was
6 A. We were taken there in the car. The house
7 was in Aladza, not far from the Aladza mosque. I
8 cannot tell exactly how far from it. It was a
9 two-storey structure. You went upstairs. I believe it
10 was a Muslim house. I concluded that on the basis of
11 having seen the cover of Koran torn up on the bathroom
13 Q. When you saw Zaga at that house, could you
14 describe how the other soldiers acted toward him?
15 A. I had a feeling that he was commanding
16 them -- I saw that -- and they were addressing him.
17 Q. Are you able to describe how he looked that
18 night, his physical appearance?
19 A. He sat in the corner, in a corner there. I
20 glanced over at one point. I never dared look around.
21 He was thin, bony. He had a short beard, stubble.
22 Q. What colour would you say his hair was?
23 A. At the time, maybe out of fear or maybe that
24 is how it was or maybe it was because it was dark, it
25 looked like brown hair. I'm not entirely sure. Dirty
1 blonde, brown.
2 Q. Did Zaga do anything to you that night?
3 A. Not to me.
4 Q. Were you taken again to a house in Aladza on
5 another occasion?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was it the same house or a different house?
8 A. Not the same. It was another house. I
9 couldn't see whether it was an apartment. It was at
10 night. I know that it was on the ground floor. It was
11 always night when we were taken, so I could not observe
12 many details. There was also a group of soldiers
13 there. It was near the house to which we had been
14 taken previously.
15 There we were forced into group sex. I don't
16 know how many. There were four or five. We were four,
17 and we were all in the same room, everybody naked, and
18 they kept taking turns. I cannot even say everything,
19 what all they did to us.
20 Q. Could you give us the numbers or the initials
21 of the women or girls with you that night?
22 A. Yes. 95, ZG, 90.
23 Q. Are you able to identify who the soldiers
25 A. No. They never called each other by their
1 names while we were there, or they would use some fake
2 nicknames which I didn't remember. So I do not
3 remember any nicknames, nor do I know any of their
5 Q. Did any of the soldiers mention what unit
6 they belonged to?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did they say where they had come from?
9 A. Yes. They said that they were the
10 Montenegrin army, that they had come from Montenegro,
11 even though I noticed that they spoke the same way that
12 we did. In other words, they had no accent, only they
13 said that they came from Montenegro. That is the only
14 thing that I remember.
15 Q. Was there any indication to you how this
16 group of soldiers might have been related to the group
17 of soldiers at the other house in Aladza?
18 A. I sensed that that was the same group. It
19 was the same group of soldiers, but I don't know how
20 true that is, but I believe it is.
21 Q. What was the basis for your believing that?
22 A. Because it was that the house was near this
23 other house. I don't know whether that was an
24 apartment. I mentioned that. I don't know whether
25 that was a separate house, but we were taken in the
1 ground floor. It was nearby, so from that I concluded
2 that it was the same unit. Perhaps there were some
3 additional details that could convince me in that, but
4 I don't recall now.
5 Q. Was Zaga present on that second occasion?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Witness, do you think you would be able to
8 recognise Zaga today?
9 A. Perhaps. I can try.
10 Q. Could you please take a look around the
11 courtroom and see if you can identify him.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you tell us where he's seated?
14 A. He was -- he's the first one from the door,
15 next to the soldier. That is how I see it.
16 Q. And as you're looking -- there are two
17 doors -- could you tell us if it's from your left or
18 your right?
19 A. My left-hand side.
20 MS. KUO: May the record reflect that the
21 witness has identified the accused Dragoljub Kunarac.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
23 MS. KUO:
24 Q. Witness, were you shown a set of 12
25 photographs on April 16, 1998 and asked if you could
1 identify anyone in those photographs?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you able to identify someone in those
4 photographs that you believed was Zaga?
5 A. I said who I believed was Zaga. That is what
6 I said. Then they took it away. I -- they didn't tell
7 me whether I had identified him correctly or not, but I
8 believe I did.
9 Q. Now, as you looked around the courtroom
10 today, did you see anyone else that you recognised as
11 being involved in any of the incidents during the war?
12 A. No.
13 Q. While you were at Partizan, did any other
14 women tell you that they had been taken to the house in
15 Aladza and raped there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you tell us who that was just by giving
18 her number?
19 A. All women -- all younger women and girls were
20 taken to Aladza. I know about G -- I know about 95,
21 48, 50, 75, DB, 87, 90, and 101.
22 Q. You mentioned, Witness, that Tuta also took
23 you out. Could you describe any incidents that you
24 remember from that?
25 A. Yes. That was not only once, that was on
1 several occasions. I don't even know the exact number,
2 but he took women to the building called Brena, in an
3 apartment there. I believe it was on the fourth floor,
4 third or fourth, something like that. And I myself
5 went there several times, and Tuta personally raped me.
6 Q. When you were taken to Brena by Tuta, which
7 other women or girls were taken with you?
8 A. Sometimes there were two of us, sometimes
9 three. It depended. On one occasion, 48 was there
10 with me, ZG, 189 perhaps another time, so women kept
12 Q. Witness, you also mentioned that Gojko
13 Jankovic took you out. Could you describe those
15 A. Yes. Gojko Jankovic took me once. When he
16 appeared at the door at Partizan, he clearly called out
17 my name. He called me out, myself and DB. And he had
18 a companion with him. I don't know who he was. He had
19 a long beard. They took us to a house -- to a Muslim
20 house in Trnovaca.
21 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I
22 would like to have this witness shown Exhibit 210.
23 Q. Do you recognise that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What is it?
1 A. That is the house at Trnovaca where Gojko
2 Jankovic took me and whose owner was a woman who lived
3 there with her son.
4 Q. Do you remember the name of the previous
5 owner of the house?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell us the name?
8 A. Yes. Her name was Zada.
9 Q. Do you remember her last name?
10 A. I'm not sure about her last name.
11 Q. Was she or anyone else of her family in that
12 house when you were taken there by Gojko Jankovic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. What happened when you were taken
15 by Gojko Jankovic to that house in Trnovaca?
16 A. When Gojko came to the Partizan, he first
17 verbally abused everyone who was there, all the
18 detainees. Then when he took us along and when we left
19 the building, I did not know where we were going. I
20 was scared. I thought that I may never come back to
21 the children. And then he turned off at Trnovaca, and
22 then we arrived in this house.
23 He first offered us drinks. He asked if I
24 drank, and I said I did not. He didn't force me to
25 drink. But he asked me, at Buk Bijela when I was
1 giving a statement, when he was lying on a bed or a
2 couch, whether I remembered who that was. I said, "I
3 did not dare look over there." And he said, "It was
5 Then he asked me where my husband was. I
6 summoned courage, and I said that he stayed up at the
7 place where they had him and that I did not know where
8 he was anymore. He just turned his head, and then
9 based on the expression on his face, I realised that
10 they were all killed.
11 Then the two of them had drinks there, and
12 later this other man who was there took DB to the
13 ground floor, and I stayed with Gojko upstairs.
14 Q. What did Gojko Jankovic do to you upstairs?
15 A. He first ordered me to go and take a shower
16 in the bathroom, and he also appeared there. I
17 undressed. I felt very embarrassed. I wished I was
18 dead. I felt very uncomfortable.
19 Then he took me to the room, to a sofa, and
20 he forced me to lie down there and did whatever he felt
21 like doing. He put his penis in my vagina, and this
22 went on through the night, with some breaks perhaps,
23 and that went on all night.
24 In the morning, he ordered the man who had
25 come with him, who was with DB, to take us back to the
1 Partizan. That was it.
2 Q. Are you able to describe the man who was with
4 A. Yes. He had a very dark beard, also somewhat
5 longer hair, not very young and quite tall. I
6 recognised him. He was also there when the village was
7 attacked, because I recognised him by this big beard he
9 Q. Witness, you also mentioned that a person
10 named Srce took you out for rape. Can you describe
11 that incident?
12 A. Yes. Again several soldiers came to the
13 Partizan and took several -- also several women, two or
14 three. This was in an apartment in Donje Polje. I
15 don't know the exact address. I just know that it was
16 in Donje Polje.
17 189 was there with me, number 90 and 48.
18 Then we were again forced into group sex there all in
19 one room, and number 90 knew Srce personally because
20 they went to school together.
21 Q. Can you give us a physical description of
23 A. Yes. He was medium height, a little
24 overweight. He had short hair, no beard. He may have
25 been about 35, maybe even a bit younger. I'm not
1 sure. So there.
2 Q. Were you ever taken to a house by a bus
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you recall who took you there and with
7 A. I was there at least twice, perhaps more than
8 that. I don't know the name of this person. He was
9 younger. He always had one or two companions with
10 him. I was there with ZG, 189, 51, and sometimes I was
11 with one of them, sometimes with another one. I was
12 there at least twice, but I don't recall whether I was
13 there more than that.
14 Q. You mentioned 51. Were there two women with
15 that same name detained with you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So the person taken with you, was that 50's
18 mother or the other woman?
19 A. The one I mentioned, number 51, was the
20 mother of number 50.
21 Q. What happened to you at the house at the bus
23 A. This young man who took us there also raped
24 us any way he wanted, one and the other and then the
25 third one. Also while he was doing it, his companions
1 would also do it, either one or two of them, depending
2 on who was there.
3 Q. Were you able to recognise any of those
5 A. Perhaps I could. I'm not sure, but this
6 young one, I think I could.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's 11.00. We shall
8 adjourn until 11.30 this morning.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Examination-in-chief
13 MS. KUO:
14 Q. Witness, were you ever taken to the Hotel
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you ever taken to houses near the Hotel
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you tell us what happened there?
21 A. They took us there. Several soldiers took us
22 there, and there were destroyed houses there, there was
23 no electricity, everything was broken. We spent a
24 whole night there as well. I again do not recall the
25 names -- do not know the names or the nicknames. I
1 recognised only one of them who was in a group. He was
2 in a group that was around a man called Srce, and there
3 were some other people there unknown to me as well.
4 Q. Were you raped there as well?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You mentioned earlier that the person you
7 knew as 101 was someone who was raped at the house in
8 Aladza, the first house that you mentioned. Did 101
9 come from your village?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know where she came from?
12 A. She was brought in from Miljevina. And when
13 she was brought into the Partizan, she stated that she
14 had spent seven days in a house in Aladza. Because she
15 was pregnant, she was brought to us, to the Partizan,
16 and she left with us on July 13th -- I'm sorry, August
18 Q. Did she say what happened to her in the house
19 in Aladza when she was there for seven days?
20 A. She told me personally that she cooked,
21 cleaned for them, that she had been raped. I didn't
22 see it, and I can't tell you to what extent it's true.
23 Q. Do you recall when 101 was brought to
25 A. No, not the exact date.
1 Q. Do you remember when there was a loud
2 explosion and you learned that the mosque in Aladza had
3 been blown up?
4 A. Yes. At that moment I was at the Partizan,
5 and when we heard this strong detonation, I, at that
6 moment, thought that they wanted to kill us, because
7 due to detonation, plaster from the ceiling started
8 falling down on us. So after a few minutes, I thought
9 that we were fine and realised that nothing was going
10 to happen to us, and I realised it was the mosque in
11 Aladza that had been blown up.
12 Q. Do you remember if 101 was brought to
13 Partizan before or after the mosque was blown up?
14 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was after.
15 Q. And you mentioned earlier that there were
16 four girls taken away from Partizan and only 50
17 returned. Do you remember if they were taken before or
18 after the mosque was blown up?
19 A. I can't remember the date really. I can't
20 remember that.
21 Q. Did any of the women ever complain to the
22 police about the rapes?
23 A. Yes. On one occasion -- I don't remember
24 what date it was -- a journalist came, and she
25 introduced herself as a journalist. She wanted to know
1 how we were doing there and to see if anybody was doing
2 anything to us. At the time, some girls and some women
3 complained to her about being taken away to be raped.
4 We thought that she was indeed a journalist, but it
5 turned out that she was a false one, a fake one. Maybe
6 a day or so later, the girls were taken out and
7 harassed, and some women were slapped on their face.
8 We were yelled at and told, "You'll -- you will see
9 what's going to happen to you now, who raped you," and
10 so on.
11 Q. How did you learn that this woman was a false
13 A. Because of those soldiers who came in and
14 told us that we had complained and told about being
15 raped, and based on that, we deduced that she was, in
16 fact, one of them who immediately related to them what
17 we told her.
18 Q. Did any women ever go to the MUP building to
19 complain about the rapes?
20 A. Yes. She thought that that could be for the
21 best, if she went in and complained. But, in fact,
22 nothing -- it didn't improve anything. I don't know if
23 she, in fact, was even seen by anybody at the
24 building. After that, the rapes did not -- the number
25 of rapes did not decrease. On the contrary, it
1 increased. That same Dragan who was the head, I guess,
2 at the MUP, he, on the 2nd -- he, on another day, took
3 this woman who went to complain to him, he took her out
4 to be raped.
5 Q. Could you give us the number of the women who
6 went to complain to the MUP?
7 A. Yes. 51 and 48.
8 Q. And which of those two women was the one
9 taken out by the head of the MUP?
10 A. 48.
11 Q. You mentioned that the head of the MUP was
12 named Dragan. Do you know his last name?
13 A. I think Gagovic. I don't know for sure, but
14 I think that's what it was.
15 Q. Do you know what relationship there was
16 between the police and the soldiers who were coming to
17 rape the women at Partizan?
18 A. I don't know. I think that since later on
19 some stated that they had approval to behave in this
20 manner, because allegedly they needed sex.
21 Q. Did you actually ever see anything to that
22 effect or did you only hear about it?
23 A. I only heard about it. I didn't see.
24 Q. Were your children detained with you the
25 whole time in the high school and at Partizan?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was their reaction to what was going on,
3 what was happening to you and to the others?
4 A. They were still little, and it was very
5 difficult for them. Every time when I would come back,
6 they would ask me, "Where did you go, mom?"
7 Q. What would you tell them?
8 A. So that I had -- I told them that I was taken
9 out for interrogation, plain interrogation.
10 Q. Did anyone you knew before the war ever come
11 to Partizan?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you tell us -- you don't need to
14 mention his name, but could you tell us who that was
15 and what happened?
16 A. Somebody who knew my husband, who used to
17 work with my husband, came, and they used to work
18 together in Maglic. I don't know why or with what
19 intent he came there. It was sometime around noon, and
20 at the moment I was asleep since I was so tired and
21 weak. And I simply heard that somebody threw himself
22 over me and laid on me, and then I woke up and I jumped
23 up right there in front of everybody, in front of my
24 children. And while I was getting up, he saw me --
25 that was his friend, and this acquaintance of my
1 husband barely recognised me and told me -- he cursed
2 the guard and asked me, "[Name redacted], is that
3 really you?" I said I was. He asked me, "Oh, just
4 look at you." And then I simply shrugged and said,
5 "Well, I don't know how I look."
6 Q. How did you look? Was this at the beginning
7 or the end of your time at Partizan?
8 A. At the very end.
9 Q. How did you look at that time?
10 A. Incredible probably, since this man had a
11 hard time recognising me. I had lost a lot of weight
12 and I was weak.
13 Q. Were there any visible injuries on you?
14 A. Yes. During my last night at the Partizan, I
15 had spent that night in the house by the bus station.
16 And one of the soldiers there, he couldn't do anything
17 to me. I don't know how to explain it to you. Perhaps
18 it was his fault; I don't know. So he simply bit me
19 completely around the neck, and I was completely -- I
20 was totally black around in that part of my body. I
21 came back to my children in that state, and this is
22 also how I left Partizan.
23 Q. The man who was an acquaintance of your
24 husband, how was he dressed when you saw him?
25 A. He was in a multi-coloured military suit.
1 Q. You described earlier in your testimony that
2 things got worse at Partizan. Do you know why things
3 got worse, why more soldiers came toward the end?
4 A. I don't know why more soldiers came.
5 Probably there were more of them in town, in Foca
6 itself. One of them who took us to the house by the
7 bus station said himself that a large group of soldiers
8 was coming from Serbia and that my friends who were
9 taken to Buk Bijela, that they would not come back
10 alive. Those were his words. But still they did
11 return alive. Probably due to this increased number of
12 soldiers, there were more rapes -- there were more of
13 them in Partizan.
14 Q. And the friends that you described as having
15 been taken to Buk Bijela, could you give us their
17 A. Yes. 95 and 90.
18 Q. Did anyone tell you when you would be leaving
20 A. I don't recall. I was so weak that I didn't
21 really care much either way. And then, all of a
22 sudden, we heard that there was a possibility we could
23 leave the Partizan on the 13th. I couldn't even
24 believe that. So they brought passes to us from
25 Dragan. He issued passes to all of us so that we were
1 able to leave, and that's how it was.
2 Q. Were these passes from the MUP?
3 A. Probably.
4 Q. And you mentioned the 13th. It's the 13th of
5 what month and what year?
6 A. 13th of August, 1992.
7 Q. After you were released, were you able to see
8 a doctor?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What did the doctor tell you about your
11 physical state?
12 A. It was very bad. He prescribed some pills
13 for me. We went to the gynaecologist. Since I had not
14 had my period for the following three months, I was
15 worried. The doctor told me that I was not pregnant,
16 that those -- that was the result of huge stress and
17 fear and that eventually it would get back to normal.
18 Q. Did you also suffer other physical effects?
19 A. I suffer still because I will never forget
20 that. My health is not great. That's it.
21 Q. Did you see a psychiatrist or get
22 psychological therapy?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. When was that?
25 A. I saw a psychologist last year. Actually, in
1 1998. It wasn't last year. And I also saw a
3 Q. Did your treatment include trying to get you
4 to remember things at all or was it something
6 A. It mostly consisted of trying to make me
7 remember what had happened and what I had lived
8 through, and also we talked about how I felt at the
10 Q. Did anybody ever suggest to you things that
11 happened to you or were you able to remember things on
12 your own with your own memory?
13 A. Only on the basis of what I remembered
14 personally, for which I personally know that they took
16 Q. Why did you stop going to the psychiatrist?
17 A. I didn't feel well when I visited the
18 psychiatrist. Every time I would leave the office,
19 because I talked to him a lot about my past, my blood
20 pressure would go up and I would have headaches, and so
21 I stopped.
22 Q. Witness, could you tell the Court, please, as
23 a result of everything that you suffered, how you
24 continue to suffer today?
25 A. I will never forget that. I suffer but to a
1 lesser degree than previously.
2 MS. KUO: Those are all the questions, Your
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination. Yes. You
5 can go ahead, please.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. On 13 August 1992, you left the Partizan?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where were you taken there in buses?
13 A. First we were taken to Titograd -- we spent a
14 night there -- and then to Novi Pazar.
15 Q. When did you arrive in Novi Pazar?
16 A. That would mean that it was on the 15th, I
17 believe, of August.
18 Q. From the persons on this list, who was with
19 you on the bus and who arrived in Novi Pazar with you?
20 A. It was -- in fact, some of them got off at
21 Rozaje, but of those who arrived in Novi Pazar with me
22 was 48, 95, ZG, 91, 90, 189, and 101.
23 Q. On that day, on the 15th, when you arrived in
24 Novi Pazar, did somebody come out to meet you at Novi
1 A. Yes. Some people met us in front of the Red
2 Cross, that is, on behalf of the Red Cross and on
3 behalf of Merhamet.
4 Q. On that occasion, did you give any statement
5 to anyone?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you gave that statement, were number 95,
8 number 90, and number 48 with you?
9 A. Can you repeat, please?
10 Q. 95, 48, and 90.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The statement that you gave to these people,
13 did you tell it in your own words and then wrote it
14 down and sign, or did you just sign what was written
16 A. I gave the first statement in Titograd. That
17 was an oral statement. And I really do not recall what
18 kind of statement I gave over there. I don't know
19 whether it was an oral or a written statement.
20 Q. Do you recall signing any documents?
21 A. I don't believe so. I don't know. I may
22 have still been in a state of shock at that time. I
23 wasn't feeling well at the time, so I cannot tell you
25 Q. Were you born in the town of Cajnice?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you, on that occasion, say that you were
3 born in Cajnice, and did you provide the personal data
4 which are in the statement which was provided to us by
5 the Prosecution?
6 A. Yes. It was Cajnice, and the date of birth
7 is also correct.
8 Q. On this occasion, were you asked whether you
9 had been raped?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you tell them that between the 3rd of
12 July and 12th of August you were in Foca?
13 A. From the 3rd of July through 13th, yes, I
14 did, because that is how it was.
15 Q. Did you tell them that you were staying in
16 the high school complex and in the Partizan building in
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. At that time, were Witnesses 95, 48, and 90
20 with you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On that occasion, did you say that the
23 persons who raped you included Gojko Jankovic, Dragan
24 Ginic, and Pantovic?
25 A. I'm certain about Gojko Jankovic, and the
1 other names are unknown to me. I don't remember. I
2 don't believe I said that.
3 Q. I quote you. You said, "When I arrived in
4 the high school centre, I was first taken out by
6 A. No. I did not say that. I don't recall
7 having said that. What I have always said, and I stand
8 by it, that a younger man whose name I did not know
9 took me out. He had a ponytail.
10 Q. At that time, did you sign the statement you
12 A. I don't recall.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
14 the Defence is in possession of a document received
15 from the Prosecution in the form of a statement which
16 the witness here has signed. We would like that the
17 witness be shown this statement in order to confirm
18 whether the signature on it is hers.
19 The witness was asked about the date of
20 birth, place of birth, as well as the place where she
21 was staying in Foca, and I would like to --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation
23 continues] ... which authority?
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The statement
25 was recorded by the Committee of Human Rights in Novi
1 Pazar in Sandzak, and the witness signed the
2 statement. And she mentioned the persons whom she
3 alleged at the time to have --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the date?
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 15 August
6 1992, as is confirmed by the witness as the date on
7 which she arrived in Novi Pazar. And she said that in
8 the presence of witnesses whom she mentioned, 1995,
9 48 --
10 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous interpretation
11 continues] ... can the usher please assist us. Is it
12 translated into English?
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we see it, can the
15 witness be -- after the registrar has dealt with her
16 part, can the witness be shown so that she can identify
17 her signature.
18 A. Yes, the signature is mine, but I could not
19 recall whether I had signed it or not. But the
20 signature is mine.
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The exhibit
22 will be marked D72. This document shall be marked as
23 D72 as Defence exhibit and will be introduced under
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I have confirmation from
1 the Prosecution.
2 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?
4 MS. KUO: No.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel, you may proceed.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. After this statement which is in front of
8 you, which you signed, how many other statements did
9 you give in reference to the events in Foca?
10 A. Perhaps another two, two statements. I don't
11 know exactly.
12 Q. And to whom did you give these statements?
13 A. I gave them to -- I don't know. Tejshree.
14 Q. You mean one of the investigators of the
15 Tribunal, if you will allow me to assist you?
16 A. Yes, and I gave one in Sarajevo in the Camp
17 Inmates' Association.
18 Q. Did you give a statement to the investigators
19 of the Tribunal on the 19th of September and 10th and
20 11th of November, 1996?
21 A. I don't recall.
22 Q. Did you also sign this statement?
23 A. I believe so.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the
25 witness please be shown the statement, the statement in
1 the English version, to confirm that she had actually
2 signed it. We would also like the witness to be shown
3 the statement in the B/C/S version.
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The Registry
5 needs to know whether this is a document which -- is it
6 from November 1996?
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No. This
8 would be February 1996.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
10 will be marked D73 as a Defence exhibit and will also
11 be introduced under seal.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the
14 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Registrar, we have -- let
16 me begin with D72. We have Serbo-Croat and English.
17 Can we have which one is "A" and which one is D72. And
18 the same for the other one, D73, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document
20 in English -- the document in English, in the English
21 language, shall be marked D73, and that is the
22 original. And the document in the B/C/S version shall
23 be marked as D73A.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Who initiated the statement which you gave to
1 the investigators of the Tribunal?
2 A. It was my personal initiative, that is,
3 nobody forced me. I gave it of my own free will.
4 Q. At the time when you gave the statement, what
5 was your memory of the events which you had experienced
6 and related?
7 A. I believe that my memory was very good. I
8 may have forgotten some things, to say some things
9 which I should have said, but I did not say anything
10 that did not happen.
11 Q. After having given that statement, did you
12 give any additional statements?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall when that was?
15 A. In Sarajevo in 1998, but I don't recall the
17 Q. On that occasion, were you told that one of
18 the persons accused had surrendered to the Tribunal in
19 The Hague, and did you know about it?
20 A. No, not at the time. When I gave this
21 statement, I did not know anything.
22 Q. Did you give that statement on the 17th April
24 A. That is possible.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this
1 statement also be shown to the witness, because the
2 Defence would like to introduce it as an exhibit.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: The usher, please.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Is this the one dated the 17th
5 of April?
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The English
8 version of this document shall be marked D74 and the
9 B/C/S version D74A. Both versions shall be under
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. At the time you gave that statement on the
13 17th of April 1998, at whose initiative was this
14 statement given?
15 A. It was my own.
16 Q. When you gave that statement, did you still
17 have a good recollection of the events?
18 A. Well, I believe that I had a fairly good
19 memory, just as I do now.
20 Q. On 3 July 1992, you were brought from your
21 village to Buk Bijela.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who of the girls from the list which you have
24 in front of you were there with you at the time?
25 A. On that same day -- are you referring only to
1 the girls or also to women?
2 Q. Only the girls.
3 A. 87, DB, 75, 88. Those are the ones.
4 Q. Today when you said you were brought to Buk
5 Bijela, you said that you were taken to be
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On that occasion, were you physically abused
9 by anyone?
10 A. No. I was only interrogated, just as I said,
11 and they felt me; that is, they searched me.
12 Q. In your statement which has been marked as
13 D73A, on page 3 of this statement, you stated that you
14 saw soldiers taking girls and women to the
15 prefabricated structures.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You said that the girls came back in tears.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. One of the girls, marked as DB, later related
20 to you what had happened to her.
21 A. For -- most of them talked to me, including
22 this one.
23 Q. What did she tell you?
24 A. That she was raped by them. I did not ask
25 her who and how. I don't know.
1 Q. When did she tell you this?
2 A. After we were taken to the high school
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence
5 will put to the witness that Witness DB was heard on
6 the 23rd of May, 2000, and asked by my learned friend,
7 she said that she was not raped at Buk Bijela.
8 A. She did -- she said that? She told me that
9 she was. I don't know the reason for it.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And when did she tell you that she had been
12 raped in Buk Bijela?
13 A. When we arrived in the high school centre,
14 that is when she told me this, and her sister, and
15 another neighbour of mine. That's how it was.
16 Q. Today, when asked by my learned friend, you
17 said that Witnesses 74 and 87 told you that they were
18 also raped at Buk Bijela.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So what is true then? Is it true what you
21 stated about DB and 87 or 74 and 87?
22 A. We all talked in a group, and to me all that
23 was true. I don't know. They both clearly stated
24 that, and the third one too.
25 Q. Again, I'm putting to you that DB stated here
1 that she was not raped in Buk Bijela.
2 A. I don't know then why she would have told me
3 this. Then I really don't know.
4 Q. When you came to the high school centre, you
5 said that there were several women injured among you.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you receive a visit by a physician?
8 A. Several days later, I don't know exactly how
9 many, two or three or maybe more, a physician came and
10 took the injured to the hospital and had them bandaged,
11 their wounds.
12 Q. During your stay at the high school centre,
13 were there any guards?
14 A. I think that there were, but I never went out
15 except once, except for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
16 But I believe that there was always someone there. I
17 don't know whether there were guards, but there was
18 always someone present there.
19 Q. The persons who were present there, how were
20 they dressed?
21 A. I only recall that they had blue shirts, but
22 I saw a lot of soldiers and they were all wearing
24 Q. When you gave your statement in 1996, and
25 this is Exhibit D73A, page 3, you stated -- this is
1 paragraph 5, next to last, and I quote: "As far as I
2 recall, I don't remember any guards being present there
3 to guard us."
4 A. At the high school centre. That is what I
5 said here. I didn't notice them. But there was always
6 someone around. I don't know. He may have been a
8 Q. Could you leave the high school centre to be
9 in front of the school?
10 A. No. Only when they were taking women and
11 girls away. But on your own, no. I did not.
12 Q. Did you intend to leave? Did you ask anyone
13 to leave?
14 A. No. I did not dare ask anyone, and I had no
16 Q. During your stay in the high school centre,
17 when did the soldiers start taking out girls?
18 A. Immediately. Two days, that is, two nights
19 later when the next group was brought over from our
20 village. From that evening on, the rapes started.
21 Q. Did these girls and women tell you where they
22 were being taken?
23 A. At any rate, they did relate. Some did, some
24 did not.
25 Q. Which ones did tell you?
1 A. Those who told me about it were 48, 50, 87,
2 and so on, and 74.
3 Q. What did they tell you?
4 A. That they were taken to be raped, some in the
5 classrooms, some farther out in the Muslim houses and
6 so on.
7 Q. Did they mention any names of soldiers who
8 took them out?
9 A. They mentioned some names which I don't
10 remember. I forgot them.
11 Q. When you gave your statement, that is, D73A,
12 page 4, paragraph 3, you said, and I quote: "The
13 following girls were taken out and, according to their
14 own words, raped," and you mention number 50, DB, 87,
15 and 75.
16 A. Yes. Could you please repeat?
17 Q. 50, DB, 87, 75.
18 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I think there is a
19 mistake in that last number. According to my list, it
20 should be 88, not 75.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank
23 you. It says "ZP".
24 Q. You stated that these four women told you
25 about this?
1 A. Yes. Among ourselves, we would always talk
2 about it and cry about what had happened to us.
3 Q. Today, when my learned colleague asked you,
4 you mentioned ten women that were taken out from the
5 high school centre?
6 A. Yes. I did list them, and I can repeat now
7 as well which women were taken out from the high
9 Q. Well, why didn't you mention all those women
10 at the time?
11 A. At what time?
12 Q. When you were giving the statement in 1996.
13 A. Well, perhaps it was a mistake. Perhaps at
14 the time I thought it was not important to list all of
15 them. Most often -- I really don't know how this came
16 to be. I always mentioned the same women for which I
17 was indeed sure they had been taken out.
18 Q. At the time, you stated on page 4, Exhibit
19 D73A, Defence exhibit, you stated and I quote: "In the
20 beginning, they would take the girls out for a few
21 hours. Later on, they would bring them back to the
23 A. Yes, several hours if they were taking them
24 into another classroom. But if they were taking them
25 out at night, they wouldn't bring them back until the
1 following morning.
2 Q. "I was not taken out for interrogation or
3 rape while I was at the school."
4 A. I was not taken out for interrogation, but
5 for rape, yes, once. Perhaps when I gave a statement,
6 I didn't explain why -- when I give statements, I
7 usually am very anxious and suffer through it, and I
8 don't know why I failed to mention that this happened.
9 But, on the other hand, I think it's normal. I don't
10 think that I can tell everything as it was or remember
11 it at the time when I'm asked.
12 Q. Did you state, "Only young girls were taken
13 out for rape at the school"?
14 A. Young girls and young women. Perhaps I
15 thought that one term encompasses the other.
16 Q. I will remind you that at the time, you
17 listed -- you named only four young girls.
18 A. Perhaps, but I do not recall that I said only
19 that. I don't know.
20 Q. I remind you that you said today that at the
21 time, your recollection was good, in view of the time
22 when you gave the statement.
23 A. Well, yes, I always say that -- there are
24 always things that are left out or left unsaid, and
25 there are things that will always remain within me that
1 I will never tell as long as I live.
2 Q. Were you perhaps reminded of these facts by
3 the psychologist that you used to see during 1998?
4 A. No. I did not quite understand what you
6 Q. Well, you visited a psychologist.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You stated that during conversations with
9 him, you were reminded or you would remember what took
10 place with you.
11 A. Yes, yes. In my conversations with the
12 psychologist, yes, I recollected my past and the
14 Q. Did you, with those sessions -- did you, when
15 you visited the psychologist, have your medical
16 history, your medical record with him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long were you treated for?
19 A. Well, I don't remember exactly, but perhaps
20 several months, and then I decided to stop on my own.
21 Q. And up until 1998, have you visited the
23 A. No. There was no need -- no opportunity.
24 Q. Today you stated that you heard that Zaga's
25 group visited the high school?
1 A. Yes. I heard from the girls.
2 Q. From which girl or which girls did you hear
4 A. From 75, 50, 87, and DB.
5 Q. What did they tell you at the time about
6 Zaga's group?
7 A. That they were taken out by the soldiers
8 whose leader was Zaga, and that it was some kind of a
9 group -- of an army from Montenegro, something of that
11 Q. Did they tell you where they had been taken
13 A. That would invariably be the Muslim houses or
14 Muslim apartments. They would mostly mention the
15 Aladza House, the Muslim house.
16 Q. Did you, while you were at the high school
17 centre, did you see Zaga?
18 A. No.
19 Q. In your statement given to the investigators
20 of the Tribunal, D73A, on page 3 you stated: "The
21 group that I remember distinctly, since they came
22 frequently to take the girls out, was Zaga's group"?
23 A. Yes, I stated that at the Partizan -- I
24 stated that that took place at the Partizan, where I
25 saw him for the first time when we were taken to the
1 house in Aladza. And while at the high school centre,
2 I only heard about this, I didn't see this.
3 Q. But at the time, you stated: "Zaga was a
4 middle-aged man, blonde, with a beard."
5 A. When I saw him at that house, yes, this is
6 how he looked. He was a bony man.
7 Q. With a beard?
8 A. Yes. He had a short beard, not a long one.
9 It was a short beard, stubble, at the time.
10 Q. You said that DB stated to you that she had
11 been raped at the high school.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did she tell you about who raped her,
14 who had raped her?
15 A. Well, we didn't go into details. It would
16 always be described with one word among us, taken away,
18 Q. So she simply told you that she had been
19 taken away and raped?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Witness DB was questioned on 25/3/2000, and
22 on page 34, line 14, when asked by the Prosecutor:
23 "Were you taken out of the school and raped," on line
24 16 the witness answered: "Yes, I was taken out, but
25 not raped."
1 A. Well, she was telling us that she had been
2 taken out and raped. I had already told you that I
3 didn't see it personally. I didn't go there to look at
4 it myself.
5 Q. But she stated that she had not been raped.
6 A. Well, I didn't say anything wrong. She had
7 been taken out and she had been raped. This is what
8 she used to tell us upon coming back and crying. I
9 didn't say that I saw it myself. I just said that I
10 saw them being taken away.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Where is this getting us? If
12 you had put to her that the Witness DB told us she had
13 never told anybody she was raped, that would be an
14 inconsistent statement, perhaps. But the fact that she
15 may have told her something and told us something
16 different doesn't strike me as assisting us either
17 way. It doesn't assist us to judge the credit of this
18 witness or the credit of DB. Perhaps you could tell us
19 how it is helping us.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
21 the Defence, in conducting this kind of cross
22 questioning and putting up the statements of this
23 witness and comparing it to what was said by the other
24 witnesses, the Defence wishes to verify the credibility
25 of today's witness about the girls being raped, and by
1 doing this, I'm only trying to establish to what extent
2 is this witness giving us the truth, and I want to
3 finish -- I meant to finish with this kind of
4 questioning, especially since this witness gave us
5 previously several statements and is giving another one
7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if you're going to finish
8 I perhaps won't belabour it, but this is the second
9 time you've raised this in cross-examination, and on
10 neither occasion have you demonstrated, at least to me,
11 how it is of any assistance to us at all in relation to
12 this witness' evidence. But perhaps if you're going to
13 go on and leave it and not repeat it, we'll forget it
14 for the moment.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Within this questioning pertaining to these
17 high school events and what took place during this
18 period, we have no further questions relating to this.
19 Now we want to focus on the Partizan Sports Hall.
20 Can you tell us, when did you come to
22 A. As I have stated previously, I don't know the
23 exact date, but we stayed at the high school centre for
24 about 13 to 15 days, but I don't know exactly how
1 Q. You told us that groups used to visit the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Please describe Zaga's group to us.
5 A. I cannot describe anyone's group since all of
6 them were dressed similarly in camouflage and armed,
7 but I only know that we were taken to Aladza on that
8 night, to the house in Aladza where I saw Zaga for the
9 first time. We were never allowed to look into
10 soldiers' faces. I can't describe each one of them,
11 one by one. I described those who took me personally
13 Q. So you saw Zaga for the first time at that
15 A. Yes. I stated that on that night when there
16 were shots heard in the Partizan, that we -- and when
17 we were taken out, I said that I didn't know who made
18 those shots. It was dark. But that night we were
19 taken to that house, and this is where I saw him. Now,
20 whether he had just arrived previously to that I don't
21 know, and I did not make any statements with respect to
23 Q. So you actually never saw Zaga at the
25 A. No, I don't recall seeing him, but there were
1 many nights when I was out, when I was outside, and
2 sometimes I wasn't there during daytime either, that I
3 could have been at the bathroom or -- so I simply
4 wasn't always present there. Many nights, almost every
5 night, I was taken out, so I didn't see him, or perhaps
6 it was night-time, so ...
7 Q. After that night, when you came to the house
8 and saw Zaga, did you see him at any time after that
10 A. No.
11 Q. You said that he sat in the corner.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In which room of that house?
14 A. It was night-time. We went upstairs, and I
15 don't know how to explain this, but we entered a room,
16 and in the corner -- I don't know. I don't know how to
17 explain to you which room it was.
18 Q. Was it a room or a kitchen?
19 A. It was something similar to a living-room, as
20 far as I could tell.
21 Q. Which women were present in the room? Which
22 other women were present when you came in?
23 A. When I came, I saw a woman I knew who
24 disappeared immediately, and with me there was 48, ZG,
25 and 95. I remember this well.
1 Q. How many soldiers were in the room?
2 A. Well, I couldn't tell exactly. They would
3 come in and come out. It wasn't a large number,
4 perhaps five or six that were milling around.
5 Q. How were they dressed?
6 A. They all wore military uniforms.
7 Q. Did they have any distinct marks on them?
8 A. I'm not sure.
9 Q. And how long did you sit in that room for?
10 A. I don't think I sat there long at all. A
11 soldier took me to the room right away and so I went
12 with him to another room.
13 Q. Did the soldiers talk amongst themselves?
14 A. Yes, they did. I don't remember what they
15 talked about, but I saw that they addressed Zaga, and
16 in the morning I observed that as well when we got up
17 and he ordered them to take us back to the Partizan.
18 Q. Who took you to the Partizan?
19 A. I don't know. There would always be a
20 soldier there. I don't remember which one.
21 Q. Did they bring you back in a car?
22 A. I don't know exactly. On some occasions they
23 would bring us back in a car and sometimes we would go
24 by foot.
25 Q. D73 -- D74A, Defence Exhibit D74A, your
1 statement: "The soldiers did not take us back to the
2 Partizan. They just told us that we should go back
4 A. Well, I just stated that on some occasions
5 they would take us back and on some occasions they
6 would not.
7 Q. Today you stated that in the morning, Zaga
8 told a soldier to take you back.
9 A. Well, perhaps since we -- the other night we
10 came to the apartment or house, I don't remember what
11 it was, right next to it, so perhaps I got that
12 confused. I didn't do it on purpose. I just know that
13 on some occasions we were brought there by car.
14 Perhaps it was that day. I don't know exactly.
15 Q. Where did Zaga sit that morning or where was
16 he in the house when he told the soldier to take you
18 A. He was in that house. I don't remember
19 whether he was standing or sitting. He was in that
21 Q. In your statement D74A, on page 2 you stated,
22 referring to that morning, you stated: "I did not see
23 Zaga in the morning."
24 A. I don't remember saying that. I know that he
25 ordered, and that that morning there was a young man
1 there who harassed us, and he told him to leave us
2 alone and to take us back. I remember -- that's what I
4 Q. You stated that a soldier took you to a
5 room. Where was that? Which room?
6 A. Right next to it. Right next to the one
7 which I entered first.
8 Q. Can you describe that room?
9 A. It was a smaller room with a closet and a
10 couch, as far as I remember. Perhaps there was
11 something else there, but I'm not sure.
12 Q. Where were 48, 95, and ZG?
13 A. 48 remained there, and I hadn't seen where
14 the other two went.
15 Q. So you were the first one to be taken out
16 from that room and the rest remained there?
17 A. Yes. I think that's how it was, that I was
18 taken immediately elsewhere, and I don't remember
19 anything else. Perhaps I was the first one.
20 Q. In the morning when you left that room, did
21 any of you take anything with you?
22 A. No, I don't think so, but I don't remember.
23 Q. With respect to the destruction of the mosque
24 that my learned colleague spoke about, so with respect
25 to that time and place, can you tell us exactly when
1 you were taken to this house?
2 A. No, I can't. I already stated that I truly
3 do not remember the date.
4 Q. Was it before the destruction of the mosque
5 or after?
6 A. I don't know that either.
7 Q. When were you taken out of the Partizan for
8 the first time?
9 A. I don't remember the exact date when I was
10 taken out for the first time. Perhaps after a few
11 days, but I don't remember.
12 Q. And who was the person that took you out for
13 the first time?
14 A. I don't remember that either, who was that
15 person. There was so many occasions that now I truly
16 don't remember.
17 Q. The soldiers that were in that house when you
18 came there, could you describe any of them?
19 A. I can describe only the soldier who took me
20 out, but I can't describe others because I never really
21 looked around. I always looked straight in front of
22 me. And I can only describe this soldier. He was on
23 the chubby side. He had black, short hair,
24 middle-aged. I can't tell you how old exactly.
25 Q. Did you see him at any other time after that?
1 A. I don't remember. Perhaps I did, but I don't
2 know exactly.
3 Q. The soldiers that you met that night at that
4 house, did you see them at any other time afterwards?
5 A. I don't know. Perhaps they were present at
6 other occasions, but perhaps I was not there, so I
7 don't know.
8 Q. You said the other house where you were raped
9 was the one next to the first house?
10 A. Yes, close, close; not exactly right next to
11 it, but close to it. I don't remember exactly, because
12 it was dark. I don't remember whether it was a house
13 or an apartment. I just remember that where we were
14 taken was on the ground floor. These events always
15 took place at night.
16 Q. How many soldiers were present there at the
18 A. There were about five or six soldiers who
19 brought us there in the same room, and we were all
20 there in the same room.
21 Q. How many rooms does that house have? Can you
22 describe the house?
23 A. We were in one room, and it seemed to be like
24 a small structure. We were there. I don't know
25 whether there were any other rooms. We simply went
1 through the hallway, entered, and then came out, and I
2 can't tell you whether there were other rooms there as
4 Q. Do you know whose house it was?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How often did you visit that house?
7 A. Once, once there, and once the other house,
8 as far as I remember.
9 Q. Do you remember -- can you describe any of
10 those five or six soldiers?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Which other women were present there with
14 A. In that house, there were 90, 95, and I think
15 ZG but I can't guarantee, but I think she was there.
16 Q. During the time you stayed in the Partizan,
17 were you taken for exchange?
18 A. No.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's 1.00. We shall
20 adjourn the proceedings until 1430 this afternoon.
21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Before the break, I asked you whether you
6 went to be exchanged while you were in the Partizan.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know whether other persons who were in
9 the Partizan went to be exchanged?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know when that was?
12 A. I do not recall the date.
13 Q. When was that in relation to when you arrived
14 in the Partizan?
15 A. Perhaps halfway through my stay there. I
16 don't remember exactly.
17 Q. Did they go to be exchanged before or after
18 the mosque was destroyed?
19 A. I don't remember that.
20 Q. Do you know which persons listed in the
21 Exhibit number 230 were on the list for persons to be
23 A. I know some of them: 91, 90. I am not sure,
24 but I believe that 51 may have been on it. I am also
25 not sure, but I think that 48, but I don't know. Some
1 went and some did not go, so I'm not sure who they
3 Q. Do you know how long they stayed?
4 A. They stayed two nights. One small group left
5 one night, and then another one went the following
6 night, and then they both came back the night after.
7 Q. Were you visited by a Serbian woman in the
8 high school centre who helped you?
9 A. I don't remember in the high school centre,
10 but I remember in the Partizan, yes.
11 Q. Do you know the name of this person?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You said that on one occasion a soldier shot
14 in the ceiling in the school.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember this person coming to the
17 school to get this soldier? Do you remember that
19 A. At that time, I only recall -- this was in
20 the middle of the night, this shooting. At that time,
21 we all came out together. I don't remember anything
22 else. Perhaps I was not there. I don't know.
23 Q. You said that a female journalist came to the
24 Partizan. When was this?
25 A. I don't know the time. I don't know the date
1 or the month.
2 Q. Can you relate that time to whether this was
3 before or after the destruction of the mosque?
4 A. No, not at all. I cannot recall any dates.
5 Q. Were you present when the female journalist
6 was in the school?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see who talked to her?
9 A. I'm not sure who talked to her. The girls
10 did. I don't know exactly. I did not. I did not talk
11 to her.
12 Q. You said that girls DB, 75, 87, and 50 were
13 taken from the Partizan.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you present when they were taken away?
16 A. I don't remember. I don't remember that
17 moment. I cannot be sure that I was there.
18 Q. Can you help us with what time of the day
19 this was when they were taken away?
20 A. I know that it was daytime. That I know. It
21 was not night, but I don't know.
22 Q. Were they taken away after they had spoken to
23 the journalist?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was that perhaps in the morning, the day
1 after the journalist's visit?
2 A. It may have been a day later. Whether that
3 was in the morning or the afternoon or that was a day
4 after, I'm not sure.
5 Q. When you gave this statement in Novi Pazar,
6 this is Defence Exhibit D72, you stated that among the
7 persons who raped you was also Dragan Ginic.
8 A. I don't remember saying that myself
9 personally, this name. Someone else may have mentioned
10 this name, that I don't know, but I don't remember
11 having said it, having mentioned that name personally.
12 The name is there but I don't recall, really.
13 Q. When you gave your statement, did another
14 person who came with you give a statement?
15 A. I believe they did.
16 Q. In your statement, it says that Witness 48
17 was with you at the time.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did she also give a statement?
20 A. I believe she did.
21 Q. Did you ever meet a person by the name of
22 Dragan Ginic while you were in Foca?
23 A. I don't know. As I said, I don't even know
24 having mentioned this name. It's true that its been a
25 long time ago, but I really don't remember.
1 Q. You said that in the high school you were
2 raped by a person nicknamed Panto.
3 A. I will repeat this. I described this person,
4 but I may have heard from someone about it, but I don't
5 remember having mentioned the name because I don't
6 recall the name.
7 Q. Did you see this person before you were in
8 the high school?
9 A. No, for the first time there.
10 Q. Could you have seen him in Buk Bijela?
11 A. I don't recall.
12 Q. Was this person perhaps with you on the bus
13 from Buk Bijela to the high school building?
14 A. I don't know. He may have been or may not
15 have been, I cannot say, because I pointed out earlier
16 that I wasn't looking around, that I was just guarding
17 my two children and stared in front of me. So I cannot
18 say whether he was on the bus or not.
19 Q. When asked by my learned friend today, you
20 said that you had -- that you did some
22 A. I beg your pardon?
23 Q. Apparently you were given some photographs
24 and asked to identify certain persons.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you please tell us, how did this
2 identification process go? What was shown first to
4 A. I was first shown a series of photographs all
5 on one sheet of paper, among which I recognised one
6 picture. I said that I thought that that is who it
8 Q. Did you then state that this person had a
9 beard and moustache when you saw him before?
10 A. I did not mention any moustache; only beard,
11 small beard like stubble, when I saw this person. But
12 it was only a several-day growth, and that could
13 change, and this can be different in the dark. I
14 didn't say 100 per cent. I said that this is what it
15 looked like to me. But as far as the facial features
16 are concerned, I remember that.
17 Q. Were these originals of the photographs that
18 were shown to you?
19 A. They were black and white.
20 Q. Were these actual photographs or photocopies?
21 A. I think that it was a photocopy.
22 Q. After you arrived in Novi Pazar, you said
23 that you visited a doctor?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When was this in relation to your arrival in
1 Novi Pazar?
2 A. I don't know the exact date, but I think that
3 it was immediately. That is, a day or two later, maybe
4 three days later, we went and visited him.
5 Q. Do you recall who, among all the women who
6 had come with you, went to this visit?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Could you please name those women?
9 A. Number 90, 189, 48, 95, and ZG.
10 Q. When you went to see a physician, how did
11 that happen? Did you decide to do so or did someone
12 tell you to go and visit a physician?
13 A. We asked for it because we didn't feel well,
14 and so they enabled us, the people who had received us.
15 Q. Do you recall where you were examined, what
16 institution it was?
17 A. I believe that this was a private practice,
18 and then some of us were sent for further examination
19 to a hospital.
20 Q. Was that the health centre in Novi Pazar?
21 A. It may have been the health centre or the
22 hospital, but there was -- we went somewhere.
23 Q. On that occasion, did all of the people whom
24 you have just mentioned go to the health centre for
1 A. I don't know exactly. I only know that I did
3 Q. What were you told in the health centre at
4 that time in regard to your state of health, and what
5 diagnosis, if any, was given to you?
6 A. We were seen by a gynaecologist. I can only
7 say what my gynaecologist told me. He told me that I
8 was not pregnant, that because of great fear, I did not
9 have a period. But the female doctor who first
10 examined me told me that I was pregnant, so that that
11 made me very scared. And then we went back, with that
12 finding, to the second doctor. He told us that the
13 finding was wrong, that I was not pregnant, and that
14 everything was all right.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence
16 would like to show the witness Exhibit D49, the report
17 on the medical examination of the witness of 24 August
18 1992, where the finding was for the pregnancy and for
20 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous interpretation
21 continues] ... with another witness. This doesn't help
22 your client's case, does it? And the Trial Chamber is
23 not interested in the details of the medical report,
24 because that's a private matter for the witness, it's
25 confidential, and it doesn't help your case anyway.
1 Are you still insisting?
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
3 the document has been tendered as D49 through Witness
4 48. We just wanted to confirm that the witness went
5 and had a medical examination, and the medical report
6 has been provided to the Court. The Prosecution had no
7 objection. This is Document D49, the medical report
8 from Novi Pazar.
9 JUDGE HUNT: How does this help us? Are you
10 disputing she went to see a doctor or that she obtained
11 a report, or are you disputing that she was or was not
12 pregnant? What has any of this got to do with it?
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I just want
14 to confirm whether the witness went to see a doctor and
15 whether she was examined, and that was all.
16 JUDGE HUNT: You may want to do all sorts of
17 things, but I asked you, "How does it help us?" To
18 what issue does it go in this trial?
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It goes to
20 the credibility of the witness.
21 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. I don't understand
22 your point at all. We've been through this so often.
23 It doesn't deal with her credit at all. Unless you are
24 taking some issue and it's relevant to a fact that has
25 to be established on one side or the other in this
1 case, it is totally irrelevant to this trial.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
3 if that is your ruling, we have a different view on --
4 the Witness 48 said she was never examined at this
5 health centre.
6 No further questions.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Whether this witness was
8 examined and whether her evidence is true, if it's
9 relevant to her credit at all, this is something that
10 you can't use against any other witness.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not
12 trying to use it, I'm just trying to present it, and I
13 was -- I just asked the witness whether she was
14 examined at the health centre or with a private
15 physician. Based on the document provided to the
16 Court, there is a discrepancy there, and I wanted to
17 just confirm where she went to be examined, with a
18 private physician or at the health centre.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: In any event, the matter is
20 irrelevant to your client's case. Are you through?
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?
24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
25 the Defence of Radomir Kovac has no questions of this
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Jovanovic,
3 Ms. Lopicic?
4 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, the Defence of the
5 accused Mr. Vukovic does not have any questions.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?
7 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Witness, for giving
9 evidence to the Tribunal. You are now released.
10 You're now free to go.
11 After the witness or even before the witness
12 leaves, we would like to go into a private session to
13 deal with a matter that was raised during closed
14 session regarding one of our Prosecution witnesses.
15 Since the witness is shielded, maybe we'll
16 have the blinds pulled down for her protection.
17 Yes. The witness may be escorted out of the
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 [Private session]
13 page 4290 redacted – private session
19 [Open session]
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. Those
21 are all the witnesses that the Prosecution intends to
22 call at this juncture. However, before closing the
23 Prosecution case, in response to a question from the
24 Chamber and particularly Judge Hunt whether at some
25 time before the Prosecution closes its case whether or
1 not we would be able to provide a map indicating all of
2 the locations mentioned throughout the testimony of
3 these various witnesses, we indicated we would do so
4 prior to closing the case.
5 We now have some copies of a map with a
6 legend, and with the Court's permission, I would like
7 to tender a copy of this map as exhibit -- I believe
8 we're up to 231, Madam Registrar. Again these
9 were just -- I've eight copies at the moment. There
10 are more copies that will be provided. Three for the
11 Chamber, one for the exhibit, and three for my learned
12 friends at this point. We'll get some more for
13 ourselves later.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Are you able to read the names
15 with something other than a microscope, Mr. Ryneveld?
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Actually, perhaps Your
17 Honour can have a look at that. There is also a
19 First of all, you will note that rather than
20 have the green sort of background that obscures matter,
21 this has been produced by our computer and is on a
22 white background. There is a legend which indicates
23 with a red star the sites mentioned specifically in
24 testimony. What we have done is attempt to check all
25 of the places that were mentioned in testimony and mark
1 those with a star. The primary roads are in sort of an
2 orange colour, the secondary roads are in a yellow
3 colour, the tertiary roads are in a sort of a grey, and
4 rivers in blue. You also see the legend from 0 to 60
6 Hopefully this is the kind of map that may be
7 of some assistance to the Chamber in reference to the
8 evidence that you have heard in the Prosecution case.
9 If that might be -- if that is acceptable, if it might
10 be marked. I take it my friends aren't objecting. I
11 would ask it be marked as -- I believe it's 231.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the formal number,
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This map will
15 be marked Prosecution Exhibit 231.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ryneveld, is it possible,
17 from the material we've got in evidence so far, to able
18 to discern any pattern, throughout Foca and Kalinovik,
19 anyway, where the larger groups or the areas are where
20 the Muslims form either almost or more than half of the
21 population? This is relevant to the question of
22 whether these rapes, whoever committed them, were part
23 of a widespread attack upon the civilian community.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That hasn't been shown
25 on this map. However, in conjunction with other maps
1 which have been marked as exhibits in these proceedings
2 through, I believe, Ms. Thapa, there are tables and
3 maps -- I see Mr. Huber is looking right now and
4 perhaps I can give you the number -- which show you the
5 population -- yes, I'm seeing it now -- the population
6 distribution for each of the -- I'm now referring to
7 this map. That is Exhibit 19, and at that has been in
8 your binders.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. I know Exhibit 19.
10 Unfortunately, unless we have some sort of a magic
11 lantern to superimpose one upon the other, that one
12 doesn't actually give us very much assistance. You
13 see, if we have to look at the nature of the attack
14 upon the civilian population and then we have to see
15 whether the rapes form a part of that, we have to be
16 able to identify, from what the evidence suggests, is
17 that there were attacks upon the Muslim civilian
18 population, and we want to know where that is.
19 Now, that's one map which shows you, by way
20 of colours on the map, where the larger groups of
21 Muslims lived, but it doesn't relate it to the names of
22 the places that we have on this map that you've now
23 handed in. It's very difficult to go from one to the
24 other. We have another map where if you have a very
25 good magnifying glass you'd probably find all of those
1 names as well.
2 Don't get me wrong. I'm very grateful for
3 this, but the material we've got so far doesn't enable
4 us to put the two together anywhere with any sense of
5 being certain that we're right that the same areas are
6 being spoken of.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, then I suppose that my
8 application at this point would be to, during the
9 break -- yes, excuse me. We do, of course, have this
10 table which has also been filed, but I understand what
11 Your Honour is saying.
12 We haven't provided you with an actual map
13 that does exactly what Your Honour is saying. We have
14 provided a table, a colour map showing various
15 localities, and we've shown the locations mentioned in
16 evidence. What we haven't, I take it, done thus far
17 is --
18 JUDGE HUNT: Given any assistance to us as to
19 how we put them together, that's right. I'm not asking
20 you to provide a fresh exhibit. You would be entitled
21 eventually to put it up as a matter of argument as a
22 chart or something like that. But somewhere, perhaps
23 if somebody could take Exhibit 231 and put the coloured
24 parts of it on it, and then we've got it at a glance.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
1 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not suggesting we can't read
2 charts and we can't read maps and read the report of
3 various people whose reports are in evidence, but it is
4 very difficult to put them all together the way it
5 comes in piecemeal, as it does at the moment. And you
6 have the resources which nobody else in the Tribunal
7 have to put those things together.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: We certainly take it upon
9 ourselves to present the Court with anything that will
10 be of assistance to the Court. I do not accept the
11 fact that we haven't done anything to provide
12 assistance to the Court. We have attempted to be of
14 JUDGE HUNT: I didn't suggest that you
15 hadn't, but I said you have done nothing to provide us
16 with any assistance upon this issue, which is the one
17 that I raised earlier.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I may have
19 misinterpreted exactly the nature of the assistance the
20 Court was looking for. I'm anxious to provide such
21 further assistance as this Court might indicate now may
22 be helpful in your deliberations.
23 If I understand you correctly and if I can
24 present a map perhaps during the course of our closing
25 brief or at some other stage, if I close the case for
1 the Prosecution today, even though it's not formally
2 marked as an exhibit, I take it that the Court would be
3 looking for the kind of information that is on Exhibit
4 19 superimposed upon Exhibit 231, not only for, I take
5 it, Foca but also for Kalinovik and perhaps Gacko.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, I think Foca and Kalinovik
7 are the two identified in the indictment, but certainly
8 Gacko has come into the evidence a lot, and it will
9 assist me, in any event, to understand your argument
10 that you're going to put on whether or not there was a
11 widespread attack upon the civilian population.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, excuse me while I
13 consult with my colleagues.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 JUDGE HUNT: This general area down on the
16 border with Montenegro is now part of Republika Srpska,
17 as I see the maps, and it's a fairly-well-identified
18 portion of it. It may be that -- I'm not sure that I'm
19 not thinking of some other case I've been in -- there
20 is certainly some evidence that whatever the parliament
21 was called, the first one, they set out the various
22 municipalities that they wanted to become a part of
23 Republika Srpska, and they subsequently did become part
24 of Republika Srpska. If it is part of the Prosecution
25 case that this attack upon the civilian population
1 along these areas is somehow related to ensuring that
2 the area which became Republika Srpska along here was
3 to be made racially pure in some way, it would assist
4 us to know just how that area also relates to this
6 It may be that that can come from, if there
7 is evidence in the case, from some written evidence,
8 and I'm not suggesting you provide it in a map. But it
9 is a very difficult concept, this widespread attack
10 upon the civilian population, and of course it differs
11 in every case. But in this case, it's a little
12 difficult to say, when we've been concentrating so hard
13 on some reasonably small villages.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: This is true. You might also
15 have reference to I believe what has been filed as
16 Exhibit 16, which looks like this. It shows the
17 areas -- the Bosnian Serb autonomous areas as defined
18 by the Assembly of Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina
19 on the 21st of November, '91, and the Zvornik TO
20 document dated the 27th of May, 1992.
21 JUDGE HUNT: That's the one I had in mind.
22 I'm grateful that you've identified it for me.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: And it is in the binder.
24 JUDGE HUNT: And that green area there, is
25 that what this whole Exhibit 231 is?
1 MR. RYNEVELD: More or less, yes. It
2 includes a bit more, but that is about the, shall we
3 say, the eastern half of Exhibit 231, because we
4 have -- on 231, we have Mostar and Konjic and Sarajevo
5 as well, which are these white portions to the left of
6 the green on Exhibit 16.
7 JUDGE HUNT: You can see the difficulty, for
8 people who are not even versed in it in the same way as
9 those who prepared the Prosecution case are, to get the
10 picture, and I use the word "picture" in a very general
11 sense. And that is why I am, myself, seeking some
12 assistance from you.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: I appreciate the opportunity
14 of providing that assistance, and we will certainly try
15 to provide a further map which does exactly that, or as
16 close as we can, to provide the assistance the Court is
17 now seeking.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Then I want to make it very
19 clear if it comes as some sort of a document to assist
20 us which support your argument, it's based upon the
21 existing evidence so that you can close your case.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: No, I appreciate that. It
23 will be part of argument with -- just like my graphs
24 were for the opening statement. It's not evidence, per
25 se, as much as it is an aid to understanding our
1 arguments at the close of the case.
2 My colleague just reminded me to ask
3 something that I intended to, which was: Is the kind
4 of assistance you're looking for to be expressed in
5 percentages or in actual numerical numbers of persons
6 that are involved?
7 JUDGE HUNT: I think I may have expressed
8 myself poorly, and for that I apologise. But what I'm
9 trying to say is where the particular area has either a
10 majority of Muslims or close to a majority of Muslims,
11 that seems to me to be the way in which you opened the
12 case --
13 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct.
14 JUDGE HUNT: -- and I'm happy to accept that
15 that's going to be the way you'll close it, but I'd
16 like to see it on the map. That's all.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you for the
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE HUNT: Maybe the best way of dealing
21 with it, Mr. Ryneveld, is once you've closed your case,
22 you then file this as argumentative material, based
23 upon the existing evidence, so that everybody has got a
24 copy of it. We know that you'll probably produce it
25 formally during your final address, but for myself and
1 I'm sure for most of us, we would have better
2 assistance from it if we have it as soon as possible.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely. We'll work on it
5 JUDGE HUNT: You see, it doesn't touch upon
6 the real issues that the accused are worried about so
7 much here as to who was responsible for these attacks,
8 but it is a general part of your case which I
9 understand the Defence do not accept. But
10 nevertheless, it has not been greatly at issue, and it
11 would be very good, from my own point of view, to have
12 that part of the case firmly in mind from here on,
13 having now heard all of the evidence, so that we then
14 go into perhaps the vital issues as to who was
15 responsible for the rapes.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: No, I don't understand this
19 document to in any way present fresh evidence. It's
20 not initial evidence. It's another way of visualising
21 the evidence which is already before the Trial
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: That being the case, and
1 subject to being permitted to do what the Court has
2 requested, that is the case for the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. It's 1515, and we
4 had already expressed our intention to move into the
5 Pre-Defence Status Conference now that the Prosecution
6 have formally closed their case, and it's in open
8 I would like to advise counsel especially for
9 the Defence that looking at the Rules, normally the
10 Pre-Defence Conference is under Rule 73 ter, but
11 because of the constraints of time for the Trial
12 Chamber, we'll combine that with Rule 65 ter (G). The
13 Trial Chamber will deal with all that now, as much as
14 possible, unless the Defence would like to raise
15 anything before we start, before we start the
16 Pre-Defence Conference.
17 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.
18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
19 I would just like a moment to consult with my
20 colleagues before we start the Pre-Defence Status
21 Conference, please.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, the Trial
24 Chamber was just wondering whether we could have a
25 brief break, maybe 10 or 15 minutes, for your
2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course,
3 Your Honour. We are grateful for it.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Then the Trial
5 Chamber will rise for 15 minutes, actually less than 15
6 minutes. We will resume at 1530.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
8 3.16 p.m., to be followed by a
9 Pre-Defence Conference