Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4626

1 Monday, 10 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.51 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning.

7 Madam Registrar, please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-96-23-T, the Prosecutor

9 versus Kunarac and others.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: This morning the Trial Chamber has been delayed

11 because of security and administrative problems. We have lost 21

12 minutes. That's why we're starting late, otherwise -- we have to ask the

13 administration to sort out the problems that the Trial Chambers are

14 facing, because if we keep on losing 20 minutes each day, in a week,

15 that's a lot of time and it will take us longer to complete our trial.

16 This morning we are ready for the cross-examination of the

17 accused.

18 The Prosecution, please.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good morning, Your Honour.

20 WITNESS: DRAGOLJUB KUNARAC [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kunarac. Mr. Kunarac, when you had your Initial

24 Appearance on the 9th of March, 1998, you pleaded guilty to rape, didn't

25 you?

Page 4627

1 A. I came for the first time on the 9th of March, and I said that I

2 plead guilty and that I must -- I feel guilty and that I must plead

3 guilty. I think that that's what I said, how I put it.

4 Q. Yes. You knew that, in relation to Witnesses 75 and DB, you had

5 committed a crime; right?

6 A. At that moment when I pleaded, I knew what had happened to Witness

7 DB, and that was the reason why I pleaded in that way. I had a bad

8 conscience all the time and that is why I came here to testify to that.

9 Q. Because it was you who took DB and 75 to the house Ulica Osmana

10 Djikica; right?

11 A. Yes, I took them, but not with the intention of raping them. My

12 intention was to learn who had taken them out earlier on, if they had done

13 so. That was my intention. That is why I took them there. That is the

14 truth of the matter.

15 Q. We'll come to this later on. But you had sexual intercourse with

16 DB, and Witness 75 was gang-raped; right?

17 A. I did have sexual intercourse with DB under the conditions and

18 circumstances that I explained during my testimony. But at that time, at

19 that moment, I had absolutely no knowledge of the fact that Witness 75 had

20 been raped. I didn't know that at the time.

21 Q. But you know now.

22 A. I do know now.

23 Q. And you know today and at that time that rape was a crime even

24 during wartime, wasn't it?

25 A. What happened on that day between me and Witness DB, I have

Page 4628

1 explained. I said it in the first interview; I repeated it here in court,

2 and I tried to explain what had happened. The witness herself did say she

3 took on the initiative for that to have come about. I absolutely had no

4 intention or desire for sexual intercourse to take place when I brought

5 her there.

6 Q. But that was not my question, Mr. Kunarac. I asked you that you

7 knew at that time and today that rape is a crime. Isn't it? That was my

8 question.

9 A. Absolutely. I can agree with you there.

10 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you gave two statements to the investigators of the

11 Prosecutor's Office; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you told the investigators the truth, didn't you?

14 A. Yes, I spoke the truth.

15 Q. Mr. Kunarac, during the events, you were the commander of a

16 military formation for special purposes; right?

17 A. Here, during my testimony, I tried to explain what my work was,

18 what I did, what type of work I did. I was an individual in charge of

19 collecting information, intelligence, and I deployed people in the field.

20 In my first interview, when I appeared on the 13th of March, 1998,

21 when I gave my first interview, my legal representative at the time, I

22 explained to him what I did, what job I had, how many men were with me.

23 He said that that is not essential, whether I would call it a unit or

24 whatever. On the basis of that legal counsel from my legal counsellor, I

25 said that it was a unit, but in fact it was a group, as I explained here.

Page 4629

1 I explained that it was a group that I worked with and did reconnaissance

2 work, reconnoitring, or other assignments that I was given I did.

3 Q. And you were the commander of this group, weren't you?

4 A. It was my responsibility to do the work with them, with these men,

5 and I would tell them what to do on the ground. So I was the leader of

6 this assignment and in charge of seeing that the assignment was carried

7 out at that particular moment.

8 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you were in charge of this group of men from June

9 1992 until you were wounded in 1995; right?

10 A. I said that I worked with these affairs from the 8th of June

11 onwards until I was wounded; I did this kind of work. And also in the

12 first and second interview and in my testimony here I said that I didn't

13 always work with the same group of people; that once I received my

14 assignment, and depending on the assignment I received, I would select

15 individuals that would accomplish that assignment because not all my

16 assignments were the same. So I couldn't take the same people on the

17 different assignments, so I never had a fixed group of people, like a

18 unit, intended for the execution of those tasks. Usually people would

19 volunteer. People would volunteer for this work, and then I would choose

20 the number of men I needed to carry out my assignment.

21 Q. Let me remind you of what you said during your first interview

22 with the investigators from the Prosecutor's Office. It's Exhibit 67,

23 tape 1, side A, page 9.

24 You were asked at that time, "Now, in the indictment you are

25 described as being the commander of a group of irregular soldiers, mainly

Page 4630

1 from Montenegro." And your answer was, "Let me tell you, this is

2 correct. I was a commander of a unit for special purposes. I was always

3 used for reconnaissance, or I as a person who had the task of using this

4 unit to gather information on the enemy, so this is why it's called

5 special unit." And that could have been -- you were then referring to who

6 gave you tasks. And then you said, "In other words, I was a soldier and

7 commander of one of the sides in the conflict, under the command of my

8 side of the conflict in that area."

9 That is what you said to the question of being a commander during

10 your first interview. And when you were also asked how long you were in

11 charge, you said, and this is Exhibit 67, the same interview, tape 1, side

12 A, page 11, "I was in charge of this unit from 12 June 1992 until I was

13 wounded, and I was wounded on 14 June 1995."

14 So you, yourself, are referring to you as a commander,

15 Mr. Kunarac, right?

16 A. On that occasion and during my second interview, I explained that

17 I was an individual in charge of gathering information about the enemy,

18 and for me to do this, to perform this task, I always needed a set number

19 of people to work with me, to help me. And from the first day I arrived,

20 I was given tasks at the beginning to detect mines and explosive devices

21 and to deactivate them, and then did reconnaissance and reconnoitring work

22 to collect information on the enemy, and I'm sure that an expert will be

23 able later on to explain my role in all this.

24 And I stated here as well that I never had a rank, I was never an

25 officer of any kind, nor did I perform the work of an officer with rank.

Page 4631

1 I was a soldier, rank and file soldier like all the others; but because of

2 the special training that I received and the type of work that I was able

3 to do, I told the other people working with me what they ought to do. And

4 as I said, the group were always -- the groups were always very small,

5 four to five people, ten people at the maximum at any one time working on

6 the ground.

7 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you and these men you were with in the field gathered

8 information on the enemy, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It was your job to know exactly what was going on in and around

11 Foca at that time, wasn't it?

12 A. No. My job was to know what was going on at the demarcation line

13 or up at the enemy front line itself or in the rear of the enemy, so

14 gathering information about the enemy. Those were my exclusive tasks, and

15 that was the type of work I did for the most part. And all our

16 demarcation lines were -- the nearest one was 17 or 18 kilometres away

17 from the town, or even 20 and 40 kilometres away and even further off from

18 the town itself when I conducted my assignments. I didn't really know

19 what was going on in town, nor could I have had knowledge of what was

20 going on in the town itself.

21 Q. So all your missions were closely connected to the attacks of

22 Muslim forces, right?

23 A. All my tasks were linked to the demarcation line itself, the enemy

24 activity, and our own preparations and organisation for a defence. So

25 this all had to do with military operations at the demarcation line

Page 4632

1 between our own forces and the enemy's forces.

2 Q. In fact, you were the eyes of the brigade, weren't you?

3 A. At all events, I collected information on the enemy. I would go

4 in front of our own lines if you couldn't see the enemy line from our own

5 lines. So I would go right up to the enemy lines and follow what was

6 happening at the enemy line itself.

7 Q. Yes, but that means you were the eyes of the brigade. You

8 yourself said that during your previous interviews, right?

9 A. Yes, I was the man who was supposed to monitor what was happening

10 along the enemy front line and to convey my observations to my superiors.

11 Q. Let's briefly talk about the military structure in Foca because I

12 have a few questions from your testimony. You and your men were part of

13 the regular military structure that was the Foca Tactical Group, right?

14 A. As I said in the interview and during my testimony here, upon my

15 arrival and joining up with that unit, it was still the Territorial

16 Defence, and a military unit was just being formed which later grew to

17 become a brigade.

18 Q. The Foca Tactical Group was part of the VRS later on, wasn't it,

19 tactical group or brigade?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it was part of the VRS from 26 June 1992, that is St. Vitus

22 Day, wasn't it?

23 A. St. Vitus Day is the 28th. As far as I recall, the 26th -- on the

24 26th the brigade was established, and that is the date that we count as

25 the date of formation, and on the 28th we celebrated the brigade's

Page 4633

1 formation on St. Vitus Day.

2 Q. The Tactical Group Foca or the Foca Brigade had five battalions,

3 right?

4 A. Yes. At that time it had five active battalions and one reserve

5 logistics battalion.

6 Q. And you have already mentioned during your testimony that the

7 first battalion had its post in Ustikolina, and the second battalion was

8 in Previla near Jabuka, right?

9 A. The commands of the battalions -- first of all it was in

10 Ustikolina, and then the command was at Previla, the headquarters, whereas

11 otherwise it was along the area of responsibility along the demarcation

12 line with the enemy.

13 Q. And you testified that the third battalion was stationed in

14 Miljevina; is that right?

15 A. Yes, one of those battalions. I don't know the order, but one

16 battalion was in Miljevina, and the headquarters of that battalion was in

17 the Hotel Miljevina.

18 Q. And to use the pseudonym, DP3 was the commander in 1992 of the,

19 let's call it Miljevina Battalion, right?

20 A. I haven't got my list with me of the witnesses and their --

21 Q. Well, you can use -- we can use this here. I hope I have them all

22 in my head. I only have my personal note here.

23 A. Yes, DP3 was the commander of that.

24 Q. The 4th Battalion, was that in Buk Bijela, the command?

25 A. At the very beginning, in the course of May and June, the command

Page 4634

1 of that battalion was at Tjentiste itself. Later on, when they

2 experienced a number of tragedies in the area, the commander of the

3 battalion withdrew and the command of that battalion was later on in Buk

4 Bijela, yes. From July onwards, I think. I don't know the exact date.

5 Q. And DP6 was the leader of an intervention platoon of the 4th

6 Battalion, wasn't he?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: I would appreciate seeing the papers and what they

8 mean. It would have been much better if the Prosecution had prepared the

9 normal lists of names and their numbers.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have prepared a list, but I thought that

11 the accused would know these numbers.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a bit unfair, really, to expect the accused to

13 remember because there are many, if you count the Prosecution witnesses as

14 well. So it would be better to have the lists before.

15 JUDGE HUNT: And many of them have been referred to by name anyway

16 rather than by any pseudonym.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: What do you mean? The accused mentioned one

18 of these people with his correct name.

19 JUDGE HUNT: There have been a number of references to some of

20 those people by name throughout the Prosecution case.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We are talking about -- it was the

22 decision of the Trial Chamber to assign these pseudonyms to these people

23 on the list, and it was a Defence request. That's why I thought the

24 accused would be well aware of these.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, he would, but, you see, the memory of the

Page 4635

1 accused, really, to remember everybody's name and the pseudonym is asking

2 too much. So it would be better even for the Bench to have a list, a

3 fresh list, if I may say so. You can proceed.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think it's helpful if we can use the

5 decision, the decision you made where all these are listed, except for the

6 last one. I just added the last one in handwriting. I think the accused

7 could use this piece of paper. It's better than my little slips.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would you please give this to the accused so

10 he has the names. I think we could mark this document as another exhibit,

11 if necessary.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one, the decision of the Trial Chamber?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, just this sheet of paper where I added

14 another name.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes, because it has got an additional name.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can use it as the next exhibit.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: We can proceed. She has to look at the last

20 number. You can proceed with your questions.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

22 Q. DP6, I think you did not yet answer it, but DP6 was the leader of

23 an intervention platoon of the 4th Battalion; right?

24 A. Your Honours, I have come here to testify about myself and my own

25 activities, and I should like to request the Trial Chamber, if possible,

Page 4636

1 to limit the questions and to avoid questions not related to my actual

2 work.

3 Let me say that DP6 was within the composition of that battalion

4 and that for a time he was in an intervention platoon of that battalion.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kunarac, you have to answer the questions from

6 the Prosecution. Where the Trial Chamber feels that you cannot answer,

7 the Trial Chamber will say so. Otherwise, you are there to be

8 cross-examined, and please answer all the questions, even if they do not

9 relate to your own activities. You were part of a team.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11 Q. So was he the commander?

12 A. For a time, yes.

13 Q. The 5th Battalion was in charge of the right bank of the Drina

14 River and it had its headquarters in Preljuca; right?

15 A. Yes. The command of that battalion was at Preljuca.

16 Q. Would you please have a look on this sheet of paper in front of

17 you, and you will find the pseudonym DP1. Do you see it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. DP1 --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Is the registrar ready with the number?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I have it, please?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Number 232.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: For the Prosecution?

25 THE REGISTRAR: For the Prosecution.

Page 4637

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Under seal?

2 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

5 Q. DP1 was part of the intervention unit of the 1st or the 2nd

6 Battalion, wasn't he?

7 A. I think he was, yes.

8 Q. And he belonged to Cosa's Guards; right?

9 A. Well, really, the composition and all the people who were in all

10 the intervention platoons, I don't know, I cannot say. DP1 was at one

11 time in that unit, but when and for how long, I really can't say.

12 Q. Cosa's Guards, that's the group around DP2, if you have a look at

13 the list; is that right? Have a look at the list. DP2 --

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The Defence, Your Honour, objects

17 because this set of questions goes outside the scope of the

18 examination-in-chief, and we do not feel that this is in order,

19 procedurally speaking. Questions must be confined to matters raised

20 within the examination-in-chief.

21 JUDGE HUNT: The Rule's been changed, Mr. Kolesar, and it's come

22 back to what I would have regarded as the usual situation anyway.

23 Cross-examination is not restricted in any way provided that it is

24 relevant to a matter at issue or relevant to credit. But if you object,

25 perhaps we better find out what is its relevance.

Page 4638

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's relevant because it shows the connection

2 between the accused at that time, and it is relevant, of course, for the

3 other two accused. And I think it's obvious.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You may think so. I'm not altogether certain. Can

5 you tell us how it shows a link between the accused?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It shows that they know of each other being

7 involved in the war, operating in independent groups, independent

8 detachments, being involved in the same attacks, as we will later see in

9 the combat order, that they know each other and that the two other accused

10 are part of such an intervention -- independent detachment.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar, your objection is overruled

13 because the questioning by the Prosecution is relevant to the issues as to

14 who was connected with whom, who was doing what, even though they were in

15 independent units.

16 Mr. Prodanovic.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to

18 point out that there was not a single word in the indictment linking the

19 accused Kunarac and the other accused, or between the accused themselves

20 individually. There's not a single word. In our opening statement, we

21 said that they have nothing in common, absolutely nothing in common. That

22 is what I wanted to point out. And I don't see the relevance of these

23 questions when he has nothing to do with them.

24 JUDGE HUNT: We, of course, are not bound by your opening

25 statement, Mr. Prodanovic, and I understand that is the case which you

Page 4639

1 seek to make. But why is the Prosecution bound by it either? If they

2 seek to make some relationship between the parties which will assist them

3 to show, for example, aiding and abetting each other in various matters,

4 they're entitled to do so, whether it's expressly spelled out in the

5 indictment or not.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

7 Q. So, Mr. Kunarac, would you please answer my question about DP2

8 being the leader of Cosa's Guards?

9 A. All that I can say to you in answer to that question is that I did

10 not know the composition of the people in those intervention platoons. I

11 didn't know many of the people at that time personally.

12 As far as the other two accused who are here in the courtroom, I

13 can say that at that time, I didn't know Mr. Kovac at all. I had never

14 met him in my life before. I just knew Vukovic by sight. At one time,

15 DP2 was the leader of that group of people, but the leaders of the units

16 themselves changed and so -- and he changed too.

17 But I can say emphatically that I was not in the composition of

18 any of those groups, and the people in those units, I really don't know.

19 I don't know all the people who made up those units.

20 Q. But you knew that Cosa's Guards were also known as the Independent

21 Dragan Nikolic Detachment; right?

22 A. I said that the intervention platoon, intervention unit, within

23 the composition of the 1st and 2nd Battalions later on took on the name of

24 Dragan Nikolic, and its first leader was Dragan Nikolic himself. After

25 that the people changed and other people led that group, that intervention

Page 4640

1 unit.

2 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you said during your various interviews, and also you

3 gave us examples during your testimony, that you received tasks directly

4 from the military command in Velecevo; right?

5 A. The command of the whole brigade was in Velecevo, yes. When I

6 testified here, I tried to take it from assignment to assignment, to say

7 when I received what assignment. So I was sent to the zones of all the

8 battalions in the three years that I spent down there, and I did receive

9 quite a number of assignments from some of the organs in the command of

10 the brigade, instructions from them. The instructions that I received

11 later on were ordered directly by the commander of the battalion in whose

12 area of responsibility I worked. So while I was in that area of

13 responsibility of one of the battalions, I was under the command of that

14 particular battalion within whose area of responsibility I had to do my

15 work.

16 Q. But you received tasks directly from the brigade command, isn't

17 that right, and you also reported directly to the brigade command; right?

18 A. From the individual who gave me my assignment, I would report back

19 to that same individual once I had completed my assignment. It is true

20 that I received assignments sometimes from organs from the brigade command

21 itself, but as I said, the command of the brigade itself is made up of all

22 the battalion commanders and their deputy organs, and that that makes up

23 the command of the brigade itself. So the commander of the brigade, the

24 chief of the brigade, their assistants, and all the commands, that makes

25 up the actual command of the brigade itself.

Page 4641

1 Q. But getting tasks directly from Velecevo and reporting to them

2 directly, it means your position was rather important, right?

3 A. All the information from the ground, from the zones of

4 responsibility of all battalions, were brought together to headquarters of

5 the brigade, and in the brigade command there was a person who was in

6 charge of collecting information received from all the battalions, that is

7 to say, from the lines that were held by these battalions. In order to

8 collect all information at one particular point and in order to have the

9 best possible distribution of manpower of the entire brigade, I said that

10 very often during these three years I was given assignments by the

11 security and intelligence people of the brigade, too.

12 Q. That wasn't actually my question, but never mind.

13 Mr. Kunarac, you reported to the command either in Velecevo or in

14 the field on a daily basis, didn't you?

15 A. When I had the opportunity to do so. When I had the opportunity

16 to do so, I did so every day. If I was going back from the field to -- I

17 would report either to the commander of that battalion or company,

18 depending where I came. But if I remained in the field for a longer

19 period of time, then I would send only brief telegraphic messages from the

20 field saying that everything was under control, that everything was going

21 according to plan; and then upon my return, I would submit more detailed

22 reports.

23 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you testified that the headquarters in Velecevo were

24 on the road Foca-Godjevno, right?

25 A. Foca and Godjevno, yes.

Page 4642

1 Q. And the Foca High School is on that same road, right?

2 A. The high school is in town, in town itself, but yes, it is on that

3 same road.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would the usher please hand Prosecution

5 Exhibit 12/1 to Mr. Kunarac. It's a town map, 12/1 is a town map. On the

6 ELMO, please.

7 Q. Mr. Kunarac, I just want to clarify two or three matters. If you

8 look at the -- you probably better look at the map itself. Do you see the

9 arrow with the number eight on it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Arrow number eight points at the house Ulica Osmana Djikica 16,

12 right?

13 A. Yes, it is pointing to the crossroads where the house was.

14 Q. And the arrow number nine is pointing at the high school, does it

15 -- doesn't it?

16 A. Yes, possibly. That could be the high school.

17 Q. And Velecevo actually is not on the map itself, but would be a

18 little bit further down, upstream the Cehotina River, right?

19 A. Yes, upstream. Velecevo is upstream from the Cehotina River on

20 the right bank of the river, two or two and a half kilometres away from

21 the centre of town.

22 Q. By the way, you mentioned during your testimony that your parents

23 lived in a house near the orthodox church in Cerezluk. Could you show

24 that on the map, where that is?

25 A. Here, here, approximately. This is where the church is. It's

Page 4643

1 opposite the high school near the orthodox cemetery on the left bank of

2 the Cehotina River. In the direction of the high school, but on the other

3 side of the river.

4 Q. So in the map you were pointing at an area above Cohodor Mahala,

5 right?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, I wanted to find out, would it help

7 if the accused was given a marker to mark the house, particularly where

8 his parents and other places --

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes.

10 A. The Cohodor Mahala neighbourhood, may I actually mark the place

11 where my parents' house is? Can I mark it on the map?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13 Q. Yes, please.

14 A. This is the neighbourhood of Cohodor Mahala which is further

15 upstream in relation to my parents' house, and the house and the church

16 are approximately here, here where I marked it with this dot.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it given the last number, the next

18 number? There are numbers. Here, can you look at the last number, and

19 let's have the next number please.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

21 Q. Could you please just simply write down number 12 next to the

22 dot. It would be easier, then, to find it, to know what it is. Yes,

23 thank you, Mr. Kunarac.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It can be taken back.

25 Q. Mr. Kunarac, Velecevo was purely the military command of the

Page 4644

1 tactical group or brigade, right? It was not a barracks.

2 A. No. That is where the premises of the headquarters of this

3 brigade were, and a very small, limited number of people who were

4 providing security for the facilities where the brigade headquarters were.

5 Q. The weeks following your arrival in Foca, you visited the lines in

6 various parts of the municipality, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you checked in various parts of the municipality for

9 minefields, didn't you?

10 A. During my testimony I explained this entire period, up to

11 September almost. I was sent to my first assignment in the zone of

12 responsibility of the 1st and 2nd Battalion, that is to say, in

13 Ustikolina; and I was supposed to check all of the communications from

14 Ustikolina to Previla. That was the zone of responsibility of the 1st and

15 2nd Battalion. After that, I was sent to the zone of responsibility of

16 the 5th Battalion.

17 Q. Please let me interrupt you. We do not have to repeat everything

18 you said during your direct. I only want to clarify certain matters.

19 It's not that you have to repeat all this.

20 You were on standby duty at that time, weren't you?

21 A. No. As I said last time, I was sent to my first assignment in the

22 zone of responsibility of the 1st Battalion, and then I was under the

23 command of that battalion. After that, it turned out to be necessary to

24 do some reconnoitring in the zone of responsibility of the 5th Battalion,

25 and from the 22nd, I believe, the 22nd of June, I was on the list of and

Page 4645

1 under the control of the commander of the 5th Battalion. This battalion

2 had its own zone of responsibility on the right bank of the Drina River

3 downstream below Cvilin, and the command, the headquarters, was at

4 Preljuca.

5 Q. But you yourself called it standby duty during a previous

6 interview. Let me just cite from your interview, Exhibit 69, page 28.

7 "My first order was to be on standby and to go visit the lines." That's

8 what you said. You called it standby duty. It's not my word.

9 A. In that interview, the question was what my first assignment was.

10 When I reported on the 8th in the morning at the command of the

11 Territorial Defence, when I was issued a uniform and weapons, I was not

12 specifically deployed. I and the other people who were issued with

13 uniforms and weapons on that day remained on standby duty until we were

14 deployed to one of the battalions. Then I got a direct assignment when I

15 was sent to the zone of responsibility of the 1st and 2nd Battalion, and

16 that is when I went to carry out that assignment.

17 Q. Standby duty doesn't mean off-duty, right?

18 A. Standby duty? Well, it depends on where a person is deployed, but

19 that means to be free at the moment but to reply to every call and to

20 every alert immediately. Also, it was forbidden to go beyond the

21 territory of Foca, and it was also necessary to respond to a mobilisation

22 call immediately. That's what it is.

23 Q. Yes. And isn't it true that during a war, no soldier is ever

24 off-duty, all are kind of standby?

25 A. People who were in battalions who were manning the line itself

Page 4646

1 were given assignments to man the line and to guard that part of the

2 line. They would do that periodically, and then they would be off. And

3 then when others would come to replace them, then they were on standby

4 duty because there was a situation of an imminent danger of war, and that

5 is what applied to everyone.

6 Q. That means you can't just do whatever you want, wherever you want,

7 because there's always a possibility of an emergency, right? Even at

8 night.

9 A. That's correct. We would have to respond to a mobilisation call

10 day and/or night, even if we were on leave then.

11 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you said that you could not perform your tasks alone,

12 but you always needed some assistance from other soldiers, depending on

13 the task, how many, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That means you needed to know where your men were all the time,

16 doesn't it?

17 A. No. When I would be given an assignment, it was only then that I

18 would see how many men I needed. It is only then that I asked for the

19 number of men I needed to carry out this assignment. Depending on where

20 this was within the zone of responsibility, of which battalion was, I

21 would receive an assignment as to which area I was supposed to go to, then

22 I would ask the commander of the battalion for volunteers who would help

23 me to carry out this task. When these men would volunteer, if several of

24 them would volunteer, then I would choose those who would seem the best to

25 me, with whom I could carry out the assignment the best.

Page 4647

1 After carrying out that specific assignment, I would go back. I

2 would report, and these men would return to their previous assignments, to

3 the previous places where they were deployed before they went to carry out

4 this specific assignment with me.

5 Q. Mr. Kunarac, commanders of whatever level give orders to units and

6 soldiers under their command; right?

7 A. Subordination and command in any army, including the army of

8 Republika Srpska, is single; that is to say, it goes from the top

9 commander down to an ordinary soldier.

10 Q. Exactly. And a military commander does not need to look around

11 for volunteers when they have an urgent task, do they? They just order;

12 right?

13 A. Yes. But I already said that the assignments that I carried out

14 were those that were high-risk assignments. Not every individual could

15 have carried out part of the assignment that I was entrusted with and that

16 he was entrusted with. So for such tasks, it was absolutely impossible

17 to have an order issued by a commander of a brigade, if he would line

18 up his men and say, "Five of you are going to do such and such a thing."

19 I tried to explain that in both my interviews and during my

20 testimony here. All the terrains that we moved around were primarily in

21 front of our defence lines, if it was reconnaissance that was concerned.

22 This area was mined by both sides, and there were obstacles as well, so

23 moving around that terrain was very difficult and dangerous. All men who

24 would go to that terrain would have to cross these obstacles and then

25 carry out the task that they were specifically charged with.

Page 4648

1 For example, if I was given the assignment to reconnoitre in part

2 of the territory of some municipality, say, within the area of the 5th

3 Battalion, it was absolutely no good for me to take people who were from

4 the zone of responsibility of the 2nd Battalion who had never been on this

5 terrain before, who are not familiar with the terrain and who cannot do

6 anything in that terrain. I usually looked for men who were from a

7 specific terrain, who were familiar with it, and who could help me and all

8 the rest of us who were there if there was any trouble or if we were to

9 clash with the enemy or if somebody were to be wounded and had to be

10 carried away. So that's what I'm saying all the time, and that is true.

11 At that time, or later I did not have a specific group of men that

12 was in charge of carrying these assignments out only. I personally came

13 as a volunteer, as I said.

14 Q. During your activities you worked rather independently in the

15 field; right?

16 A. The tasks, the assignments that I got from my superiors, it was

17 mostly I who got these assignments and I carried them out with the group

18 of men who would be with me. Very often other men who were at our defence

19 lines did not know about our movements there because of our own safety and

20 security. These were very small groups. It was usually three to six or

21 seven men at a maximum that went out to reconnoitre. I needed to have the

22 smallest group of men possible so that I would not be easily observed and

23 so that I could carry out the assignment given to me by my superior in the

24 easiest way possible.

25 Q. That wasn't actually my question. My question was: When you were

Page 4649

1 in the field, you worked rather independently, didn't you? You made those

2 decisions.

3 A. I don't know which assignments you're referring to specifically.

4 At any rate, I would get assignments -- I would get a specific assignment

5 involving a specific task that I was supposed to carry out. As for the

6 implementation of the assignment itself and the way in which the task

7 would be carried out on the ground, in the field, I would deploy my men

8 saying who was supposed to do what so that we could carry out this task

9 together.

10 Q. You yourself, Mr. Kunarac, during a previous interview, said, "I

11 was able to work independently in the area." That's your own words, and

12 you said that at Exhibit 67, tape 1, side A, page 9. That's what I

13 meant. And that's right.

14 A. Well, all right, I told you -- for example, I would be given the

15 assignment to go to the zone of responsibility of any battalion, to go in

16 front of the delineation lines. When I would cross the defence line and

17 when I would set out with a group of men, I was absolutely responsible for

18 carrying out that assignment. In that terrain, because I was the one who

19 was entrusted with the task, I would carry out that task. The men who

20 were with me would help me carry out this task; that is to say, in the

21 field itself, there were none of my superiors who could out there, in the

22 field, give me specific tasks. I was the one who had to take care of that

23 part of my job by myself in the field.

24 Have we understood each other now?

25 Q. Yes. Exactly.

Page 4650

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, could Mr. Kunarac

2 please be shown the combat order dated 7 July 1992. That is Prosecution

3 Exhibit 2.

4 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you said that you did not get this combat order at

5 the time but were informed about it orally; right?

6 A. This is the order that I spoke about during my testimony here and

7 in my interviews. I did not have the opportunity of seeing the order in

8 this form at the time when this was happening, because this order was

9 issued by the commander of the tactical group or the brigade himself and

10 it was only sent at the level of battalion commanders. According to what

11 was going on in the area at that time, I said that I knew from the order

12 itself -- I mean, which part of the order had been carried out. I took

13 part in the implementation of part of this order.

14 Q. I would like to refer you to page 3, but I'm not really sure if

15 it's page 3 in the B/C/S version, the headline "Command Post Ustikolina

16 Barracks." It says there: "The Independent Zaga Detachment shall take

17 part in mopping up settled areas in the direction of the 5th Battalion's

18 attack." Do you see that? Could you find this?

19 A. In the original it's on page 4, point number 3. That is where the

20 Independent Zaga Detachment is mentioned, mopping up settled areas in the

21 direction of the 5th Battalion's attack.

22 In my testimony here, I said that in the zone of responsibility of

23 the 5th Battalion, that that is where I was from the 22nd of June. On the

24 6th of July or June, I got a task from the commander of the battalion to

25 go reconnoitring in the direction of Cerova Ravan, and before the order

Page 4651

1 was issued in this form -- because you can see that it was issued on the

2 7th of July, 1992 -- I was already out in the field reconnoitring that

3 area where the 5th Battalion's attack was supposed to take place, in that

4 direction. So I was already there carrying out my assignment, and the

5 direction of the attack of the 5th Battalion, as I testified here, was the

6 direction down the Drina River, along the right bank of the Drina River,

7 towards the ultimate objective, and that was taking Cerova Ravan.

8 Q. Yes. The Independent Zaga Detachment in the combat order, that's

9 you and your men; right?

10 A. Here, this notion of mopping up settled areas and of

11 communications, et cetera, was mopping up the area and the communications

12 towards Cerova Ravan, as I testified. From Cvilin and further on towards

13 Cerova Ravan, I don't know, there were six or seven smaller villages.

14 This entire area was abandoned; there were no people there. The enemy

15 area was from Cerova Ravan to the Drina River, and we thought that there

16 was a great possibility of --

17 Q. Mr. Kunarac, let me interrupt you. I asked you a rather simple

18 question and I didn't want to have you repeat all the things you did

19 during that time. I just asked you: The Independent Zaga Detachment,

20 that's you and your men, and you didn't answer this question. You could

21 either say, yes or no.

22 A. The order was addressed to me, that I was supposed to clear, from

23 mines and explosive devices, the direction -- that is to say, the

24 direction from where the 5th Battalion was supposed to be.

25 Q. So the answer is yes, actually, to my question. The Independent

Page 4652

1 Zaga Detachment, that's you; right?

2 A. I personally was the only one there in the 5th Battalion who was

3 capable of doing that at that time, that is to say, of finding and

4 dismantling a mine. There were four or five men who helped me at the

5 time. But I was in the area with that group of people. However, since I

6 was already carrying out this assignment of reconnoitring and clearing

7 these mines in the area, that is probably the reason why this is mentioned

8 in the order, that it was my duty to clear that area from mines, mining

9 and explosive devices.

10 Q. The assigned task -- you obeyed the order; right? You obeyed this

11 order, this combat order.

12 A. During my testimony, I said that before that I had already been

13 reconnoitring and that I did take part in preparing for the attack of the

14 5th Battalion in that direction. Throughout this period of time, I was

15 under the command of the 5th Battalion, on the direction of this attack,

16 under the command of the Josanica company leader, and that will be proven

17 during testimony.

18 Q. You mentioned that your nickname is Zaga. And Zaga, does that

19 mean saw?

20 A. Yes. That is a carpenter's tool for cutting wood. That is a

21 nickname I've had since early childhood, since I remember myself.

22 Q. Right. Let's move on to another matter. At the times relevant to

23 this indictment, your group of men consisted of 10 to 15, 16 men,

24 including yourself; right?

25 A. I said that usually there were smaller groups and that the maximum

Page 4653

1 number of men ever to be with me on the ground was 15 plus me. That's

2 16. This was only once during the combat operations covering this

3 indictment, when I had to join the other units.

4 Q. You testified that you arrived together with five men on June

5 1992, on 6 June 1992; right?

6 A. I said that a total of five of us came. I said here as well the

7 names of four men or, rather, three men. I was the fourth. The fifth

8 name I did not mention because of my own safety, for personal reasons or,

9 rather, the safety of my family.

10 Q. The men who arrived together with you wanted to stay together with

11 you during the fighting, didn't they?

12 A. I said that then, when we were issued with these things, I and

13 three of these men were deployed to the 1st Battalion, as well as some of

14 the men who were from Foca, who were also issued weapons and uniforms.

15 This group that was issued with all these things at that time and I went

16 to the zone of responsibility of the 1st Battalion. On the list of the

17 1st Battalion is where these people remained later, and after the 22nd of

18 June as well. I was later sent to carry out another assignment in the

19 zone of responsibility of the 5th Battalion, and from then onwards I

20 worked with a different group of men in the zone of responsibility of that

21 battalion.

22 Q. Let me remind you what you said during a previous interview. It's

23 Exhibit 67, tape 1, side A, page 12. "I came from Montenegro on 6 June

24 with those five, six men, and they were all volunteers. It was their own

25 wish to help, to assist the population on the conditions that they also be

Page 4654

1 under the same command where I was." That's what you said.

2 A. That is what I said in the first interview. In the second

3 interview I tried to explain it to you, and I also told you under which

4 circumstances I gave the first interview. The legal counsel I had then

5 absolutely told me that it was absolutely not important, all the rest. It

6 was only important that I explained and said why I pleaded guilty, or

7 rather what I felt guilty about in relation to the indictment that was

8 then in force.

9 Q. It was not your counsel who answered questions but you. You

10 yourself said that these particular men wanted to be together with you;

11 right?

12 A. While I testified here, I also said that these men, when they set

13 out with me, that later they volunteered, and I'm saying that until the

14 present day. They volunteered. When they heard that I was supposed to go

15 out an assignment, they volunteered to come with me. Depending on the

16 number of men I needed, if I needed a larger number of men or if at that

17 point in time I needed some of these men, I would take them and I would go

18 off to carry out this assignment together with them.

19 Q. Most of these men were still with you in July and August 1992;

20 right?

21 A. Out of those -- I mean, those who had come together with me, these

22 four men who came with me, one of them was with me during these first 20

23 days and not after that. Kontic himself, on one or two occasions,

24 volunteered again. When I went to Jabuka, he went to Jabuka with us. As

25 for the fighting in Rogoj, he came there with another unit. But during

Page 4655

1 the fighting for Rogoj, he joined a group of men that I was with because

2 there were very few of us reconnoitring. Only six. And then others from

3 other units joined us. People from Kalinovik, six or seven joined in.

4 And then I said that I had this maximum number of men; 15 plus me, 16.

5 This was during the fighting for Rogoj itself.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's 11.00.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we rise, I notice that the registry has

9 distributed the English translation of D86 which was admitted into

10 evidence. It's a newspaper article, and this is the English translation,

11 which is now D86A, and it will be under seal.

12 We will rise and continue the proceedings at 11:30 hours.

13 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic?

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

17 Defence is highly concerned and would like to request a clarification.

18 Possibly the translation or the interpretation was not in the spirit of

19 our own language and that a misunderstanding arose on that account, but

20 the Defence is worried because of the following: After the objection made

21 by my colleague, Mr. Kolesar, His Honour Judge Hunt informed us that the

22 Rules had changed. I don't know at this point in time whether they are

23 Rules which -- that is to say, the Rules we have are the Rules which came

24 into force on the 7th of December, 1999, which were enacted on the 30th of

25 November, 1999.

Page 4656

1 Perhaps there was an unfortunate translation, perhaps that was the

2 reason, but in my language, when we say that Rules have changed, the

3 Defence considers that formally, officially, new Rules have been enacted

4 with respect to examination; and during the break we tried to receive

5 information from the registry and our colleagues whether any formal

6 amendments have been made or not.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Just to make it abundantly clear, Mr. Jovanovic, I

8 was referring to Rule 90(H), and I'll read it to you. It's in the same

9 document you appear to have, the one dated the 7th of December, 1999, and

10 it says, "Cross-examination shall be limited to the subject matter of the

11 evidence in-chief and matters affecting the credibility of the witness,"

12 and this is the additional material, "and where the witness is able to

13 give evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party to the

14 subject matter of that case."

15 Now, that is what was added last year, to make abundantly clear,

16 what I think was probably the understanding beforehand, and it is that

17 Rule which was changed. That is the Rule I referred to, and that is the

18 Rule which makes it very clear that if the Prosecution wishes to prove

19 something, they are entitled to cross-examine the defendants' witnesses in

20 order to establish it.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

22 understood your quotation and the provisions of Rule 90. My question only

23 referred to any possible amendments or changes that the Defence was not

24 aware of, but I repeat, it might have been a question of translation or

25 interpretation. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4657

1 JUDGE HUNT: There's been nothing since last November.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution continues.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, during the break the Prosecution

5 has written a new list with the pseudonyms, so I would like to enter this

6 into evidence so that we have a clean list of the names so nothing --

7 partly typed and partly in handwriting.

8 Would the usher please distribute --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much. Can we have it formally

10 numbered, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is Exhibit 232/1, Prosecution

12 Exhibit, and tendered under seal.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, please proceed.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you told us that you received your orders from the

16 command in private without presence of third persons, right?

17 A. Yes, that's what I said, and most frequently I would receive

18 assignments from my superiors. Usually it was the individual issuing me

19 the assignment and myself who were present on the occasion, the two of

20 us. If you want to bring up some of the individuals on the list, may I

21 have a copy of that list, please?

22 Q. Yes, I thought you had one, sorry.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: If the usher could give -- let the accused

24 have a copy.

25 A. Thank you.

Page 4658

1 Q. I actually thought you wouldn't need the list because during the

2 examination-in-chief you used the pseudonyms, so I thought you were

3 familiar with it, but now you have the list.

4 A. Just once in the course of the examination-in-chief were one of

5 the people mentioned; the others were not.

6 Q. Receiving the -- receiving the orders in private, that means your

7 tasks were generally of a sensitive nature, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You would then prepare your equipment, radio, maps, field glasses,

10 wouldn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You had normal field glasses, nothing fancy, right?

13 A. Yes, I had binoculars for day reconnaissance. For nighttime, we

14 didn't have any technical devices.

15 Q. Then after your personal preparation, you would inform your men,

16 right?

17 A. Once I received a specific assignment, the area I was to go to and

18 what I was to monitor there, I would prepare maps and everything else that

19 I mentioned. And then the person who issued me with that assignment, I

20 would tell him how many men I felt I would need to help me carry out my

21 assignment.

22 While I was preparing the maps, radio link, and so on, everything

23 that I needed, the individual who issued me my assignment would prepare

24 the men who were to go with me. Out of this group proposed, put forward

25 by that person -- usually I asked that they would be people who

Page 4659

1 volunteered themselves -- I would pick from this group of available people

2 the number of men I needed, and we would go on our assignment.

3 Q. Mr. Kunarac, it was my understanding that you informed the men you

4 would take with you and gave them the necessary details, and even

5 sometimes only in the field because the tasks were so sensitive, and not

6 anybody else.

7 A. As to the assignment itself, the people who volunteered and went

8 off with me to perform this task, then, quite normally, whilst on our way

9 to the area, to the terrain, I would tell each individual what they were

10 to do, or when they got there. That's how we cooperated in the field, in

11 that way. So before the people joined the assignment, I did not tell any

12 one of them where we were going or what we were going to do, but I would

13 usually say that I was going to do reconnaissance work and that I needed

14 three, four, or five people.

15 The persons who volunteered assumed what type of assignment I was

16 on. They knew that they were high-risk assignments and highly complicated

17 assignments, and so they would volunteer themselves. Sometimes when

18 people who had not gone on assignment with me before volunteered, they

19 would ask me what there was to be done and where we would be going, and so

20 then I would, in the briefest possible terms, tell them what was expected

21 of them in the field, what type of work was expected. When the people

22 heard this, they would either come along with me or would give the idea

23 up.

24 But usually I never, ever told anybody the direction and actual

25 locality where I was being sent on assignment, because, as I said, they

Page 4660

1 were high-risk assignments, and if I told anybody where I was going, it

2 could jeopardise myself and the whole group. We could be arrested or

3 killed during our assignment.

4 Q. That means these men followed you more or less blindly into the

5 field, doesn't it?

6 A. All the people, all the men who volunteered, volunteered

7 usually -- one of them or me. If I was in the area of responsibility of

8 our particular battalion, I would say I needed four or five men to go with

9 me into the field and that we were going to do reconnaissance work,

10 reconnoitring. So the people who volunteered were conscious of the type

11 of work that we were going to do; that is to say, that we would be in

12 front of our own defence lines, moving towards enemy positions, or perhaps

13 behind the enemy's back. And they would volunteer for that type of task.

14 As I say, they never knew the exact locality or the direction of

15 our movements, but they did know the type of work that they would be

16 expected to do and they volunteered on that basis, on the basis of these

17 assumptions; that they were engaging in a highly complicated assignment

18 with a very high risk factor. But once they started out with me, then I

19 would inform each one of them where we were going to go, how long we were

20 going to stay in the field, and everything that each of them had to know

21 in order to carry out this assignment.

22 Q. These men who came with you must have trusted you a lot and

23 respected you a lot; right?

24 A. Each one of these persons had to go with me on one occasion for

25 the first time. There was always a first, a first time for everyone.

Page 4661

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16

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18

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Page 4662

1 During this first assignment, they would get to know me and how I worked,

2 and I would usually go ahead and, in the course of my reconnaissance work

3 and reconnoitring, I would take care of 80 per cent of the task in hand.

4 They were able to see that I did my best to keep us safe, that I looked

5 after my own life and their lives, so they believed me and I believed

6 them. Because unless you had trust and confidence of this kind in such a

7 small group, and without this mutual assistance, it would be impossible to

8 undertake assignments of this kind.

9 Q. That means you yourself also trusted the men who were with you;

10 right?

11 A. I have already said that when there was a first-timer with us and

12 I didn't know what the individual was like and what his capabilities were,

13 then I was given the opportunity of learning how good they were. I had to

14 believe him, I had to rely on him, just as he had to rely on me, because

15 our lives depended on each other in the field on assignment.

16 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you gave us the names of some of these individuals

17 already during your testimony. Among them was Gaga; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Gaga is older, smaller, and heavier than you yourself; right?

20 A. Yes. Gaga was older than me, 10 to 12 years older; he was

21 shorter, perhaps ten centimetres shorter; and he was strongly built.

22 Q. He was your deputy, wasn't he?

23 A. I have already said that I would go on assignment with five or six

24 people. Doing reconnaissance work in the field, as I said, I was the only

25 one who had a complete set of equipment, the radio transmitter, the maps,

Page 4663

1 the binoculars, and so on. So if I went off with one person, one man, in

2 front of all the others to reconnoitre the enemy lines, then that other

3 person would remain behind with the other half, stay behind. Usually this

4 was somebody whom I could rely on most and somebody whose conduct in the

5 field and whose qualities and skills were the best all round, and somebody

6 whom I trusted most.

7 Q. But you didn't answer my question. I asked you if Gaga was your

8 deputy, if he was the man whom you trusted most.

9 A. I said it was a group of five or six people. By rank we were all

10 on a footing of equality, we were all equal. In performing the task, I

11 performed the task, and, yes, Gaga was the person I trusted most, I

12 believed in most.

13 Q. And you trusted that he would be loyal to you, didn't you?

14 A. Well, in the field, of course, and this was demonstrated on

15 several occasions. He was always ready and willing to lay down his life

16 to protect me or any other individual. He was an extremely courageous

17 man. He didn't have a family; he wasn't married. He always told all of

18 us, because we were all younger than him, for the most part, he would

19 always say that he had lived his life and that if anybody had to lose his

20 head, then it would be better that it be him because all of us were

21 younger and had a life ahead of us or had small children or hadn't even

22 got a family yet. So that's it.

23 Q. If I remember correctly, you said he even saved your life at Rogoj

24 on one occasion, didn't he?

25 A. Yes, on the 2nd of August he saved my life at Rogoj.

Page 4664

1 Q. How did this come about? What did you do?

2 A. I mentioned this in the interview. I said that already on the

3 31st of July, I was sent to reconnoitre the Rogoj access, and I spent the

4 night of the 31st and the day of the 1st and the night between the 1st and

5 2nd there reconnoitring this whole Rogoj area. And when the combined

6 command of the Kalinovik and Foca Brigade issued an order that an attack

7 be launched on these positions which we had lost, then they included me

8 directly into the unit itself which launched attack on Rogoj.

9 And I personally, as I had maintained that in Rogoj, at the cafe

10 in Rogoj, and the artillery, the Muslim artillery, that they had taken

11 control of it. When I said there were no people who had been taken

12 prisoner there and that the enemy forces there were relatively weak, I was

13 given the task of personally launching an attack and tried to free the

14 artillery pieces that had been captured at Rogoj itself.

15 And there were four or five people doing reconnoitring work with

16 me in that time, and as I had few men, I asked the commander, as I said,

17 who was in charge of the overall operation of this counter-attack, and he

18 decided to let me have seven or eight more men join me. And so in that

19 attack I did lead those men in the attack itself, at the Rogoj Pass

20 itself. And Gaga was one of the men in that group, in the reconnoitring

21 work and during the attack itself, during the attack on the Rogoj Pass.

22 And I went ahead of them. It was a clearing, and the other side

23 opened fire on us, and Gaga hit the individual who was shooting at me.

24 Had he not targeted him, shot him, I would have lost my life. I would

25 have been killed on that clearing in front of the cafe at this pass.

Page 4665

1 Q. Thank you. You also had a female member in your unit, right, or

2 in your group of men?

3 A. I said in the interview when I was asked, that sometimes in the

4 field there were women, too, who performed their part of the work in a

5 highly qualified way. And these individuals usually gave us medical

6 assistance. If anybody was wounded or injured, they would give medical

7 assistance to the wounded fighters in the field.

8 Q. Let me remind you what you said about, about this female member

9 during your previous statement, and it's Exhibit 67, tape 1, side B, page

10 3. "I had a female member of my unit who was doing a better job than many

11 of my men." That female member of your unit, that's Jadranka, right?

12 A. Yes, that is correct. I did say that in the group I was in there

13 was a female member, and it is true that on the 12th of August in carrying

14 out one of my assignments, Jadranka was a member of the group in which I

15 myself was, too. And we had one person killed and four people wounded in

16 the group on that particular occasion, and Jadranka did something that

17 none of the other men at that time did do: She went up to each of the

18 wounded men, bandaged and treated their wounds, and showed enormous

19 bravery, and managed to save at least one of the wounded men.

20 Q. Jadranka, she was blond, skinny, and wore a camouflage uniform,

21 didn't she?

22 A. I met Jadranka at Trnovace, I think it was on the 10th of August,

23 when she arrived there with the individual whose name I wrote down on a

24 piece of paper yesterday. And on the 12th when we started out on one of

25 our assignments, she was together with a group she -- who -- in the field,

Page 4666

1 a group that was in the field. And as I say, one of the members of that

2 group were very seriously wounded, and also Krnojelac will be able to

3 testify himself as to the details of that particular incident, and she

4 personally administered first aid. Later on, I helped him too.

5 But on that assignment, that particular day, on the 12th of

6 August, she was wearing camouflage uniform, and she did not carry any

7 weapons. She had her first aid kit, her medical kit, and it was her duty

8 to administer first aid to fighters in the case of should they be wounded.

9 Q. My question was --

10 A. That is what she did.

11 Q. My question was if she was blond and skinny. You didn't answer

12 that yet.

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And as being with you, when she was with you, she had to obey your

15 orders, just like the men, right?

16 A. That day when she was with me in the field, and that was the only

17 time she was in the field, she was within the composition of another unit

18 who -- which was in the field on its own assignment. So at that time she

19 wasn't, so to speak, under my command.

20 I was given the assignment of reconnoitring the area, and next to

21 us there were two other groups, each of which had their own assignments,

22 and she was within one of those other groups. However, when these people

23 were wounded and when Vido Vitkovic was killed and the other four men

24 wounded, she was the only nurse near all those groups, so she came to the

25 spot and administered first aid and tended to the wounded.

Page 4667

1 At that particular moment I myself was not -- how shall I put

2 it? That is to say, she was not within the composition of the group that

3 I led on the field.

4 Q. Mr. Kunarac I just read to you what you said during your previous

5 statement, that you said, "I had a female member of my unit." That's then

6 another woman?

7 A. No. When I said that, I said that I had occasion in the field or

8 when on assignment to work with a female member who performed her job in a

9 very qualified way. The question asked of me was not whether she was in

10 the group that I was in command of or not. But as I say, she was in the

11 same locality that I was with my men, and she administered medical aid,

12 first aid, to a person in the group that was on assignment with me doing

13 reconnoitring.

14 Q. During your testimony, you told us that four men lived in the

15 house Ulica Osmana Djikica 16, right?

16 A. Yes, four men were there usually, although, as I said, other

17 people would come to the house as well. But I said that I know that four

18 men did spend all their spare time in that house, yes.

19 Q. These were brave men, right?

20 A. I said that there were very dangerous men there, too, and between

21 brave and dangerous there is a difference.

22 Q. They were also nasty men, right?

23 A. Some of them, yes.

24 Q. Among those four men were Kontic and Gaga, right?

25 A. That's right.

Page 4668

1 Q. And you did not give us the name of the other two because you

2 thought it's a security problem, right?

3 A. I have already said that Gaga was there, Kontic as well, and two

4 others, both of them from Montenegro. And for the safety of my own

5 family, I do not wish in any way to state the names of those people

6 because, despite all the protective measures and everything else, my worry

7 is that I should not endanger my own family, my own children.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

9 show a list of names to the accused, and I think it's already distributed

10 to everybody else here in the courtroom, and I would like to enter it into

11 evidence.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Prosecutor, why didn't we have numbers also

13 for these two names?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't think it's necessary to have numbers

15 because we just address them briefly here at this specific moment, but we

16 can assign numbers to it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: It's much easier in case the judgement needs to

18 mention them.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can call them the first one DP7 and the

20 second one DP8. And we will make a new list in the next break, a complete

21 one, then.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Is there any objection to the Defence for calling

23 giving these numbers, DP7, DP8?

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

Page 4669

1 Can we have a formal number for the document, please?

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is document 233, Prosecution

3 Exhibit 233, tendered under seal.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

6 Q. Mr. Kunarac, these two persons listed there, these are the other

7 two, aren't they?

8 A. Yes. And in addition to them, there were other people who came

9 and stayed there, but these two stayed longer than others. Those four who

10 were there in addition to Gaga and Kontic, those were the two who were

11 there at the house most of the time.

12 Q. There was also a Jure among your men, wasn't there, a Jure?

13 A. Uros Radovic, nicknamed Jure, he volunteered for a few of the

14 assignments I was given, and on a few occasions he was with me in the

15 field. That man is from Foca. He lived in his parents' home.

16 Q. Mr. Kunarac, during your testimony you described to us the house

17 Ulica Osmana Djikica 16 and the one next to it. I would like to just

18 clarify this on the photos.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

20 show the photos numbered 7395 and 7396 of Exhibit 11. Would you please

21 put it on the ELMO. First the photo 7395; that's photo 2 on this page.

22 Yes.

23 Q. When you look at this photo on the bottom of the page,

24 Mr. Kunarac, where there is a little bit of rubble on the left side, that

25 is where the house was; right?

Page 4670

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The other one. The bottom photo, please.

2 Yes.

3 Q. There's a little bit of rubble.

4 A. On the lower photograph, that house would be here, on the corner

5 itself, and on the upper photograph, it would be way up here. Here, this

6 part. This part here, that is where the house was, the house that was in

7 the street of Osmana Djikica 16. This was taken from one angle, whereas

8 on the other photograph, it is this area here, where you can see the

9 remains of the foundations of that house.

10 Q. The, let's call it, green or blue house that is to be seen on that

11 same photo, that's the other house where some of these men stayed; right?

12 A. On this other house, the second one here, it says, "Niksic." I

13 personally don't know. I was never in that house and I don't know whether

14 any one of these men lived in that house. But the houses were very close

15 to each other, seven or ten metres apart at the most. This leads me to

16 the assumption that some of these men might have lived there. So this

17 green house is not the house that was mentioned as the house of Omer

18 Djikic number 16. It is the house that was next to it. Probably some of

19 the men who lived in that house wrote "Niksic" on that blue house.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. That's enough.

21 Q. Mr. Kunarac, the house Ulica Osmana Djikica was a former Muslim

22 household; right?

23 A. That is very likely. Before the war, I don't know who lived in

24 that house. Before that, I never knew the owner of that house, but it is

25 quite possible that it belonged to one of the Muslims.

Page 4671

1 Q. It's quite likely because Muslims lost their houses at that time;

2 right?

3 A. It depends on which area of the municipality you are referring

4 to. Also in the broader area of the municipality, a large number of Serbs

5 remained without their houses, just like the Muslims.

6 Q. You visited your men in this house, didn't you?

7 A. The first time I entered this house was on the 22nd of July, after

8 I had gone to the hospital to see Goran Milicic when he was wounded. When

9 Gaga also went to see him after the wounding, on the next day, he told me

10 then, when he came back from the field, that he came to stay at the house

11 at Ulica Osmana Djikica 16, and that is the first time that I entered that

12 house. I spent a very short period of time there. After that I entered

13 the house on a few occasions. I mentioned already that on the 3rd of

14 August, on the morning, I entered that house on two occasions.

15 Q. You knew if you needed some of your men you could find them there;

16 right?

17 A. I knew it was Gaga who I needed the most. From the very first

18 assignment that we went out on together, he said that wherever I went and

19 whichever area I was going to, he would always volunteer to come with me

20 on assignment regardless of the kind of assignment and regardless of the

21 danger involved and regardless of the kind of terrain where this task

22 would have to be carried out.

23 In that house there was not a telephone. If I needed him, then I

24 would come in front of that house. I would honk the horn, if I were in a

25 car, or I would send one of the men who had already volunteered to come

Page 4672

1 with me to go to that house and to ask him to come, or if I needed someone

2 else from that house who had volunteered, who had expressed his readiness

3 to come and carry out a particular assignment.

4 Q. Mr. Kunarac, from your previous statements, I got the impression

5 that you went to this house more regularly. Let me cite from your first

6 statement. It's Exhibit 67, tape 1, side A, page 14. "But on my own

7 off-duty time, I would often drop by. I would visit them and see if they

8 needed anything, agree on something, assist the wounded or something."

9 You visited your men, you looked out for their needs, agreed on issues,

10 and assisted the wounded; that is what a commander does, isn't it?

11 A. I said that when I was off I would go to that house every now and

12 then and help some of those people who were possibly with me out in the

13 field or who had been wounded, which is true. However, in the period that

14 is relevant for this indictment, how much time I had off is something that

15 I hope to prove rather successfully.

16 I assert that the first time I went there then was on the 22nd of

17 July, because Milicic had been wounded before that. I stopped by because

18 before that we were in the field for 14 or 15 days altogether. Gaga

19 himself took me to show me where he was put up now so that I would know

20 where he was.

21 And then again I came to that house on the 3rd of August, in the

22 morning, when I brought DB and 75 there. I also mentioned this in my

23 testimony. After that I dropped in once or twice at that house.

24 Q. You and your men wore military uniforms; right?

25 A. I personally, for the first 10 or 15 days, wore an SMB uniform,

Page 4673

1 olive-grey/green uniform, like all the others. When I was transferred to

2 the 5th Battalion, I got a camouflage uniform. All the men who were with

3 me in the field mostly wore camouflage uniforms or olive-grey/green. It

4 depends. Sometimes they would wear parts of civilian clothing as well,

5 because we would get only shirts and trousers. As far as uniforms were

6 concerned, that's the only thing we were issued with. But if we had to

7 stay longer out in the field, if it would rain and if we would have to

8 spend the night out there, people would take civilian sweaters or jackets

9 or something else that was not part of the military uniform.

10 Q. You wore these uniforms not only during the missions but all the

11 time, except for washing; right?

12 A. That is right. I said that. How much time off I had during that

13 period will be proven. However, I was usually wearing trousers and a

14 shirt; that is to say, I was in uniform. I did not move about in civilian

15 clothes during the time period that is mentioned in this indictment. Only

16 at one moment was I in civilian clothes, when I came back from Tivat on

17 the 21st or on the 20th of September, when I came from there and when I

18 attended the funeral at Miljevina after a large number of people were

19 killed in that area.

20 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you said that you did not sexually assault anyone

21 before the 3rd of August, 1992; right?

22 A. I assert now as well that not before or after the 3rd of August, I

23 did not have any sexual intercourse with anyone except for DB, under the

24 circumstances that I described myself and that she also described, in

25 part, during her testimony.

Page 4674

1 Q. Nevertheless, several witnesses testified that between 13 July and

2 2 August 1992, they had been raped by Zaga. You heard them, did you?

3 A. I heard all those witnesses, I heard their testimonies, and I

4 assert that as far as I'm concerned, it is certain that not a single one

5 of these witnesses had the opportunity of talking to me personally, let

6 alone anything else. So I assert that either before or after the 13th of

7 August [sic], I did not have any sexual intercourse with any person or

8 anything else, except for Witness DB.

9 Q. Do I understand you correctly that you do not argue that these

10 women were not raped at all but that it wasn't you; right?

11 A. I assert that absolutely never, not at a single point in time was

12 I present anywhere where perhaps some of these women were sexually abused,

13 if that is correct. I am not asserting that that or something similar did

14 not happen to them, but I am claiming that I did not know about it and

15 that I was not present when they were possibly taken out or sexually

16 abused in any way, nor did I have any knowledge of this ever.

17 Q. You claimed that you first learned about girls and women from

18 Partizan being raped when you were told about it by the journalist Gordana

19 Draskovic; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You said that your reaction to this information was to bring DB

22 and 75 to the house Ulica Osmana Djikica and confront them with some

23 soldiers; right?

24 A. I spoke about that here; that I went to Partizan, that I talked to

25 those persons, that they confirmed to me that they had talked to this

Page 4675

1 woman journalist, that they were taken out by some men and sexually abused

2 by them. They also confirmed to me that they were taken to Aladza,,

3 although they denied that they had mentioned my nickname, Zaga, in any

4 context. They also denied that during their conversation with the woman

5 journalist that they mentioned the notion of Montenegrin in any sense, and

6 that in this conversation they had with the journalist, they did not bring

7 in either me or the Montenegrins in any way.

8 When I concluded my conversation with them, I took them to Aladza

9 so that they could show me the house or possibly even the men who had

10 abused them, so that I could see who these men were who had possibly

11 abused them and who were being linked to me. That was my most sincere

12 wish and intention: to find out who had mistreated them and who had

13 introduced himself as me and done something in my name, so to speak. But

14 it was certainly not my intention or my wish to have anything happen like

15 what happened afterwards.

16 Q. So at that time you believed that what they said, the girls said,

17 could have been the truth, right?

18 A. When the woman journalist told me about this, I did not believe

19 absolutely that something like that was going on. I personally was hurt

20 because the journalist told me that my name had been mentioned, that these

21 persons that she had talked to had said that I personally had taken them

22 out and raped them, and that I was present when they were raped by some

23 men whom they called "Zaga's men" or "the Montenegrins."

24 Then when I went there -- I went there to check this out because

25 they confirmed to me that something did indeed happen to them. These

Page 4676

1 persons 75 and DB, while I talked to them in front of Partizan, did tell

2 me that some men had taken them out, but they don't know who these men

3 were, that they had not known them before, that they did not know their

4 names. And they also told me during that conversation that they did not

5 mention the nickname of Zaga to the journalist, or did they mention Zaga's

6 men or the Montenegrins who were linked to Zaga or Zaga's men. I don't

7 know whether I've been clear enough.

8 Q. I think I asked a quite clear question, but I didn't get actually

9 an answer.

10 You did not dismiss the allegation as ridiculous; you believed

11 that there could have been truth in it, right, at that time?

12 A. I'm saying that until then, I did not know that these persons

13 existed there, and in this conversation when they confirmed to me that

14 something like that had happened to them, I did believe that that had been

15 going on. I'm not denying until the present day that something like that

16 might have happened. It is possible that some individuals had done this.

17 But I took them there only because I wanted to find out possibly who these

18 persons were and whether these persons had identified in any way with me.

19 I had the intention, if they had pointed anyone out to me, of

20 going to the SUP together with them, and I wanted to bring criminal

21 charges against the -- such a person who had possibly done this to them.

22 This person would have been punished accordingly. I wanted to come with

23 them so that they could file a criminal report against such a person so

24 that these persons could be caught and punished.

25 Q. I don't mean to interrupt you, I mean, we do not have to repeat it

Page 4677

1 on and on. I mean, you have explained what you did and why you did it,

2 but just I would rather prefer that you simply answer the questions as

3 brief as possible.

4 However, the witnesses testified that they were raped by Zaga, and

5 your name -- nickname is Zaga, right?

6 A. That is correct. They testified here before this Court that I

7 personally had raped them. Those are their stories. That is what I heard

8 from them.

9 Q. You claim that you believed someone was pretending to be Zaga and

10 raping, right?

11 A. At that moment, I'm telling you, the girls did not tell me that

12 they had mentioned my name at all, but they did tell me that some persons

13 whom they did not know had taken them out and raped them. Then when I

14 heard that story of theirs, I had believed that they had told the

15 journalist that the person who came had introduced himself as Zaga and

16 said to be Zaga. I wanted to go and check this out to see whether this

17 person had introduced himself as Zaga, or whether it was they themselves

18 who had brought this person into some kind of a connection with me on

19 their own.

20 Q. You even thought that this person posing as Zaga could be one of

21 your men in the house Ulica Osmana Djikica, right?

22 A. They told me that they had been taken to some house in Aladza.

23 According to the description of the house, I had suspected that it was

24 that house; and I asked them to show me the house where they were brought,

25 and they showed me that house. They pointed out that house as we were

Page 4678

1 driving towards that house. Then I decided to take them and to have them

2 show me the person from that house. Not then in front of them, but later

3 they could tell me if any one of those men there had taken them out and

4 raped them, to tell me which person that was.

5 And I said in that house were Gaga, Kontic, and these two

6 persons. The first person on this list, DP7 was never with me until then

7 on any mission, nor was this person in any way under my command on the

8 ground, in the field, and did not cooperate with me in any way; whereas

9 the other person on that list, in those ten days while I was in the zone

10 of responsibility the 1st Battalion, was with me in the field.

11 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you had a reputation of being a warrior, right, a

12 warrior?

13 A. Yes. I was a soldier in the army of Republika Srpska, and I took

14 part in several military operations where there were combat actions.

15 Q. And if someone pretending to be you did horrible things and you

16 would find out, don't you think that everyone would know you would be mad?

17 A. Well, at any rate, men who worked with me in the field did know

18 me. Had I found such a person, had they pointed out such a person to me

19 on that morning -- I was indeed hurt by this story, and had I found out

20 that one of these men had introduced himself as me, by my name, I can

21 confirm that, yes, I would have been mad at that man. And I don't know

22 what would have happened after that.

23 Q. So you are saying that someone who wanted to rape, picked your

24 name out of all as a disguise?

25 A. Well, listen. Today when I look back and when I try to understand

Page 4679

1 why all these persons are mentioning my name, I think that it is something

2 else that is concerned here. That morning I came to Partizan; I entered

3 Partizan. First, I asked who the persons who talked to the journalist

4 were. After that, I said loud and clear in front of all 50 persons who

5 were in Partizan, I said, "I need girls who were taken out by Zaga and

6 Zaga's men." I said it in that context because that is what the

7 journalist had told me.

8 All the persons who were in Partizan saw this, and also all the

9 witnesses who testified here as witnesses were probably present there.

10 They saw me there that morning, and that -- and they heard from my very

11 own mouth that morning that I was looking for the girls who were taken out

12 by Zaga and his men. And I took out those two women, and later on quite a

13 few of them mentioned me and put me into that context, that I personally

14 had raped them.

15 That is my own view, because their first statements, after they

16 had left Foca, are absolutely different from the stories they told here

17 and the statements they gave a few years ago to the investigators.

18 Q. Let us stick to the questions. We don't want to get into an

19 argument, we just -- please answer my questions.

20 Now this person, Zaga raping women would then have to look just

21 like you, same age, same build, same hair, same eyes, right?

22 A. If I may make a comment, that is how it should be. But, Your

23 Honours, Witness 48 in the statement given to the tribunal claims that

24 when Zaga took her to the hotel and allegedly raped her, and afterwards

25 Vukovic, Zaga, was 40-- between 45 and 46 years old, that is 178

Page 4680

1 centimetres tall, and that she heard the name from somebody else, an

2 individual who is also in the indictment, and that that individual said

3 that the person who had raped her was Dragan Kunarac. And you can check

4 that out in the statement of Witness 48. If that is my description, well,

5 that would make that me, but ...

6 Q. Mr. Kunarac, we come to the separate rapes later on. We don't

7 have to do this now.

8 You yourself actually suspected that Kontic could have posed as

9 you, didn't you?

10 A. I said that, judging by the appearance and height, Kontic was of a

11 similar height to me, but he was eight to ten years older than me. But he

12 is my height; he was thinner. I have dark eyes; he has blue eyes. But

13 perhaps Kontic could have reminded somebody of me, was most like me in

14 some way.

15 But he liked to drink alcohol. He was very unpredictable in his

16 behaviour. And when I first went to that house, I did have my doubts. I

17 thought it might be him, that he might have been one of the people who

18 took the women out. But he was present there on the occasion when I

19 brought them there, and they didn't point him out to me. Neither Witness

20 DB, nor Witness 75, they didn't point him out.

21 Q. When you were interviewed by the Prosecutor, you still suspected

22 Kontic as a possible candidate for posing as Zaga, right?

23 A. Let me tell you again, even until the present day I have not

24 learnt who that individual is. On the basis of everything I have said, on

25 the basis of their appearance and knowing Kontic, I doubted whether he

Page 4681

1 could have been the individual present or the perpetrator of the deeds

2 that these witnesses described. And I had my suspicions, but I never got

3 proof. None of the witnesses ever said -- pointed him out to me and said

4 that was him. So it was just my suspicions, that I just had my doubts.

5 And that is true today: I have no proof.

6 Q. But you never reported him or confronted him about it, did you?

7 You can report suspects; you do not need to prove.

8 A. At that time when the offensive on Foca was strong, exceptionally

9 strong, the Muslim forces were exceptionally active at that time. Had I

10 gone to the SUP or the commander at that time and said, "The journalist

11 says that I raped some girls over there," and that had I asked for an

12 investigation to be put into place, at that time they would have laughed

13 at me because, I say, I couldn't point my finger at anybody. They didn't

14 tell me a single name.

15 When I brought the girls to the spot, they weren't able to show me

16 a single individual, either then or afterwards, so I had no proof. Had

17 they shown some indication that it was one of them, had they pointed to

18 somebody, then I maintain that I would have gone with the two girls

19 straight to the SUP and I would have helped them make a statement and to

20 help bring that individual to justice. I would have helped them to have

21 those men arrested. That was my intention, and that is what I wanted to

22 do.

23 Q. You said that Kontic had your height, he was thin and had brown

24 hair, but I take it he doesn't have your big eyes, does he?

25 A. He had lighter eyes than me. He had smaller eyes. He had

Page 4682

1 slightly longer hair than I wore. His hair was more wavy than mine, and

2 it was longer. He had longer hair than my hair at that time.

3 Q. The witnesses testified that this person Zaga never came alone but

4 was accompanied by some soldiers, right?

5 A. I heard those statements as did everybody else present here in the

6 courtroom.

7 Q. They especially mentioned that Gaga was coming with Zaga, right?

8 A. I said, and that is the truth, that Gaga came with me to Partizan

9 on two occasions on the 3rd of August. The first time and the second

10 time, that is correct.

11 Before that, whether Gaga came there once before or perhaps

12 afterwards while they were still in Partizan, I really don't know. I

13 really cannot say. I didn't have any information of that kind. I

14 personally did not think that Gaga had anything to do with that because

15 when I brought the two girls out and brought them face to face, they said

16 that they saw me -- were seeing me and Gaga for the first time, and that

17 was on the 3rd of August in the morning.

18 Q. However, according to the testimonies of the victims, a person

19 posing as you would have to have support by some other men, other

20 soldiers, right? Especially they would have to involve -- Gaga would have

21 been involved in this intrigue against you, wouldn't he?

22 A. I don't think that Gaga was involved or that he had to be involved

23 in that, if girls had been taken out before that.

24 I state once again that the witnesses on that particular day were

25 probably present in the Partizan. They saw me and Gaga on that occasion,

Page 4683

1 and I mentioned my nickname, Zaga, when I took the girls out. When I

2 brought them back to Partizan, it is quite possible that both DB and 75

3 told the other ones present what had happened to them. And then I turned

4 up again, I came for a second time, took the girls out again to Miljevina

5 under the circumstances that I described to you. And ten days later these

6 others left, and it is my own personal opinion that everything they later

7 stated and the testimony they gave here was through their desire to punish

8 me for the fact that those girls had been taken out.

9 But what happened on that day, as I said here, I explained how and

10 why it happened, but I maintain, I claim that never, either before or

11 after, did I enter the Partizan, nor did I have any kind of physical

12 contact or sexual intercourse with any of the witnesses testifying here.

13 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you heard Witness 48 testify that you raped her in

14 the Hotel Zelengora. You have already mentioned it a few minutes ago.

15 You said you never entered the Hotel Zelengora at that time except for

16 having coffee with Gordana Draskovic; right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. The hotel is located in the very heart of the town; right?

19 A. Yes, that's also correct.

20 Q. People used to gather by the hotel then, and now; right?

21 A. Yes. At the time there were a lot of refugees in the hotel. But

22 people around the hotel would also gather there because it was the centre

23 of town, and people would gather there.

24 Q. It would be a place where you could get a lot of information;

25 right?

Page 4684

1 A. I don't know what kind of information you mean specifically.

2 Q. Refugees, for instance, would bring information from the fighting

3 areas; right?

4 A. The refugees coming there came from certain areas. There were a

5 lot of refugees in the hotel from the Slatine area, and later on from

6 Jabuka. But for the most part -- well, they knew what had happened to

7 them and under what circumstances they had been forced to flee from their

8 households. In that respect, I can agree with you.

9 Q. You claim that you met the journalist Gordana Draskovic on the 3rd

10 of August, in the morning; right?

11 A. Yes, the 3rd of August, in the morning. Between 7.30 to 8.00 in

12 the morning.

13 Q. You knew her from before; right?

14 A. Before that I had seen her several times in the field, either

15 before or after some of the assignments we were on. On one or two

16 occasions before that she had tried to ask me for an interview. I refused

17 to give her an interview, but that's all. She knew who I was and I knew

18 that she was a journalist. That was as far as our acquaintanceship went.

19 Q. You were friends with her, weren't you?

20 A. Well, as I said, I knew she was a journalist of Radio SRNA. On

21 several occasions I talked to her for several minutes -- a couple of

22 minutes, when she tried to take an interview, and that's where it ended,

23 that was where our contact ended. I can't qualify that as being friends.

24 She knew of me; she knew who I was; she knew the work I did. As a

25 journalist, she worked in the locality and so she knew about all the

Page 4685

1 military operations that were under way at the time. She wanted, as a

2 professional journalist, me to give her an interview, to give her

3 information directly. She was interested in what had happened the

4 previous day up at Rogoj itself.

5 Q. However, you were close enough with her that she would tell you

6 about the rape allegations rather than printing them; right?

7 A. The meeting -- I said she stopped me, and our first contact was

8 that she said she wanted to talk me as a professional -- to interview me

9 as a professional journalist. She wanted to write a story about Rogoj

10 itself and I refused once again. I said I didn't want her to write

11 anything at all about me.

12 On that occasion she did say, because I was very frequently in the

13 field and not in town, she did say, "Well, we could at least sit down and

14 have a cup of coffee, and I can promise you that I'm not going to write a

15 story." So that is how I accepted her invitation for coffee, and we went

16 off to the Hotel Zelengora. We sat down. She once again tried to steer

17 the conversation towards Rogoj itself, I said I didn't want to talk about

18 that, and then she started to mention the Partizan and the people from

19 Partizan. She said that she had a very good story anyway with my name

20 mentioned and that she intended to publish the story --

21 Q. However --

22 A. -- to print it.

23 Q. We don't need any more details. You have already told us.

24 However, she never wrote or broadcast about the rapes, did she?

25 A. I really don't know that she did. I didn't have occasion to

Page 4686

1 either hear about it or read it.

2 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you heard Witness 183 describe that she was raped by

3 Zaga, son of Lekso, and robbed afterwards; right? And you said you didn't

4 do it.

5 A. Yes, I heard that witness' story, and I claim -- I absolutely

6 claim that I wasn't the person that went to the flat and did what she said

7 the person did.

8 Q. So your position again is that someone is posing as Zaga, son of

9 Lekso; right?

10 A. I don't know whether that happened at all. She herself said that

11 she knew my father and that she knew my family. She didn't know me

12 because I lived outside Foca. However, her mentioning the individual --

13 the other witnesses mentioning the individual who was there of the Serbs,

14 Tadic was mentioned as being a witness, she mentions him only because she

15 knows that that person was killed on the 8th of August together with

16 Dragan Krnojelac, and she knows that that person is dead.

17 I claim that I never went to the apartment, nor did I ever take

18 out that person or take anything from her or mistreat her in any other

19 way.

20 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you have given us details of your whereabouts from,

21 actually, the 6th of June until the 19th of November, 1992 on a day-by-day

22 basis; right?

23 A. Not November. Up until the 19th of September, 1992.

24 Q. Sorry.

25 A. On the 19th of September or the 20th, I'm not quite sure of the

Page 4687

1 date when Kontic was killed, and the day before, 42 people were killed at

2 Papratna Njiva, amongst whom I thought my brother was too. I came to Foca

3 because I thought my brother was amongst those who had been killed. The

4 next day I attended the funeral at Miljevina of these people. On the 23rd

5 of September my wife gave birth, and on the 24th I left for Tivat.

6 Up until then, following the events that took place in the

7 locality, I did state where I was. I stated my whereabouts, where I spent

8 how much time, and what I did.

9 Q. Yes, you were very precise, even sometimes to the exact hour;

10 right?

11 A. Well, in certain details, yes.

12 Q. Did you keep a diary?

13 A. No, I did not keep a diary. But things like that, things that

14 were going on, things that go on in wartime, you remember some details for

15 a long, long time. They're not easily forgotten.

16 Q. It was clear to you, and it is clear to you, that your absences

17 from Foca during the relevant times are of special importance for your

18 case; right?

19 A. That's clear to me.

20 Q. During the pre-trial stage and during the interviews, you claimed

21 alibi defence for the periods 7 July until 21st July, 23rd July until 26th

22 July, 2nd of August until 3rd August; right?

23 A. Yes. In the pre-trial interviews we did speak about that. But in

24 the interviews, I answered questions that were put to me about the things

25 that I was certain of, when they happened. Later on, during the

Page 4688

1 investigation itself, I can now state certain dates exactly, and when the

2 Defence gathered information on certain specific things that I knew had

3 happened but didn't know the exact date they had happened.

4 For example, the mine at Tjentiste, I know that it occurred in

5 mid-June and that's what I said then; but now I know for sure that that

6 was on the 22nd of June. Or the attack on Jabuka, I knew that the attack

7 had taken place in the summer; now I know that that was exactly on the

8 23rd of July. Some other killings or the wounding of certain people that

9 have entered into the records, I was able to ascertain the exact dates

10 when this was. And the death of an individual or the wounding of an

11 individual is clear in my memory and I'm sure that I'll remember it for as

12 long as I live.

13 But of course it is quite normal, as seven or eight years have

14 gone by since that interview was given, I did not have the exact times and

15 dates until I received some of the documents that confirmed the exact

16 times and dates of these killings, woundings, attacks, or something of

17 that kind which I had a very vivid, clear memory of.

18 Q. During your testimony you said that from the 7th of July to the

19 21st of July you were in the area of Cerova Ravan; right?

20 A. From the 6th of July until the 21st of July, I was located in the

21 area of Cvilin, as I said, up until Gabelic Kosa, the night between the

22 6th and the 7th. And from the 7th to the 21st, from the fall of Cerova

23 Ravan to the evening when Milicic was wounded, I spent at Gabelic Kosa,

24 that is to say, between Gabelic and Zubovic Kosa and Preljuca. That was

25 the area I was in during those 11 or 13, throughout that whole time.

Page 4689

1 Q. And you know how important that fact is; right?

2 A. I know that very well. As far as that is concerned, I know that

3 then, in that area, there were at least 70 people who were in that

4 Josanica Company, and all of those 70 people can confirm that fact, that

5 is to say, that I never, at any time, left this Gabelic Kosa area and that

6 I was present there throughout.

7 Witnesses will appear who were there. And the commander of the

8 5th Battalion will also probably testify before this Trial Chamber, and he

9 will be able to bear me out, to confirm that.

10 Q. However, you did not mention your presence in Cerova Ravan during

11 your first interview; right?

12 A. Did I have to?

13 Q. I'm asking the questions, Mr. Kunarac, not you.

14 Mr. Kunarac, given the task you performed throughout the

15 municipality of Foca, you were rather flexible in changing locations;

16 right?

17 A. My assignments were in a broader area, practically encompassing

18 the whole of the Foca municipality. But each individual assignment

19 focused on one portion of that area in conformity with the task I was

20 assigned. In that period, my assignment was in that area.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Prosecutor, you don't want an answer to your

22 question that he didn't mention his presence in Cerova Ravan during the

23 first interview?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He gave me kind of an answer. I understood

25 his question like an answer.

Page 4690

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

2 JUDGE HUNT: We've got the documents anyway, haven't we?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

4 Q. What I asked you was a general question. The general question

5 was: You were rather flexible in changing locations at that time. You

6 didn't answer that.

7 A. I said that I received assignments from my superiors and that they

8 sent me in different directions depending on the requirements of the

9 moment.

10 Q. The distance from Cerova Ravan to Foca is not more than 20

11 kilometres; right?

12 A. Yes, it's about 20 kilometres. That's right.

13 Q. And there are various roads; right?

14 A. At that time, during our stay there from the 7th onwards, when we

15 arrived at Gabelic Kosa, I claim that the sole direction which a vehicle

16 could move from Gabelic Kosa to Foca was interrupted, and at no time did I

17 leave the area.

18 Witness Subasic mentioned other roads and approaches to that

19 place, but if you look at those other roads, then it becomes quite clear

20 that the road we used is the shortest possible route and most conducive to

21 movement, because there was a hill hiding our movements, the movements of

22 men and vehicles, and that visibility was only for a short portion of this

23 time. The other roads that he mentioned were not feasible, nor could they

24 be used for proceeding in that direction.

25 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you did not mention the roadblock during your

Page 4691

1 previous statements, did you?

2 A. In one of the interviews -- I don't know which one; I think it was

3 the second one -- I think I was asked where I was during that particular

4 period, from the 7th, and I think I mentioned that I was on assignment

5 from the 6th of July up until the 20th or the 21st. When I was asked a

6 second question, which sector was that in, in that interview I said it was

7 on the right bank of the Drina River, in the direction of Gorazde. I had

8 in mind that particular operation that was under way at the time.

9 But at that time, in that interview I was not asked specific

10 questions, I was not asked the specific question as to the details of the

11 operation itself, nor -- so I didn't answer those questions then. But in

12 the second interview, for sure I was asked where I was in the period

13 between the 7th of July up until the 20th or the 21st, and my answer was

14 that I was on assignment on the right bank of the River Drina, downstream

15 towards Gorazde. I think I mentioned Gabelic Kosa, but I'm not quite

16 sure. I might not have.

17 So at that time I did say where I was, what direction and general

18 locality I was in. I didn't in the first interview because in the first

19 interview, you yourselves know how much time we had for the interview and

20 the circumstances of it. We started at 11.00 or 10.30, and by 12.00 --

21 Q. I think we don't need to go into these details.

22 Just one more question about the roads there. Without the

23 roadblock, to get from Cerova Ravan to Foca would usually take not more

24 than an hour; right?

25 A. Round about that, yes. That's more or less it. But the situation

Page 4692

1 in that area, at that time, in view of the fact that there were combat

2 operations underway all the time, and the fact that I was on assignment

3 the whole time, I did not leave, nor could I have left, that area because

4 we received our assignment to all practical purposes on the 6th, and we

5 completed it on the 21st which the witness Subasic confirmed, your

6 witness.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Prosecutor, can we adjourn the

8 cross-examination till this afternoon, and let's deal with some

9 outstanding motions.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We have a few motions, some responses or some

12 submissions I expected from the Defence. Most of them are in closed

13 session. We'll move into private session.

14 First before we do that, there is one motion regarding the -- it's

15 a Defence motion to grant for its medical expert to examine some of the

16 Prosecution witnesses. The decision of the Trial Chamber to that one is

17 that the motion is denied. The written decision will follow in due

18 course.

19 The rest of the motions will be in private session. Can we move

20 over, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

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15 We will adjourn until 14.30 hours this afternoon.

16 --- Recess taken at 1.07 p.m.

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Page 4698

1

2 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: [Interpretation] Cross-examination continues by

5 the Prosecution.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you claim that from 23rd of July to 26th of July,

8 1992, you were in Jabuka, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And Jabuka is about 20 kilometres away from Foca town, right,

11 approximately?

12 A. A bit further. About 25 kilometres along the existing road, from

13 Foca to Jabuka.

14 Q. Let me remind you what you said during your second interview when

15 you mentioned Jabuka for the first time. It's Exhibit 69, page 22. "My

16 first combat, my first war task in the municipality of Foca, took place on

17 the 22nd or on the 23rd. I believe it was the 23rd of June, June or

18 July. It was the attack on Jabuka." And you continue in that same

19 Exhibit 69, page 24, "Actually, the brigade itself was in the process of

20 formation at that time, and I was informed that the village of Jabuka was

21 attacked."

22 You mentioned Jabuka as your first task, didn't you?

23 A. Yes. I know when I mentioned that, and with your permission, I

24 would like to clarify what I meant by my first combat task when I said

25 that. That morning when Jabuka was attacked, I reported when the alert

Page 4699

1 was sounded, like everyone else. Jabuka was attacked at 5.00 in the

2 morning on the 23rd. I got out, like everybody else with equipment and

3 weapons, and when I came to the point where we were supposed to meet, that

4 is where the commander of the brigade was, and he asked for us to report

5 immediately. And that is when I volunteered, and that is when I got my

6 first assignment from the commander of the brigade to go to Jabuka to see

7 what had happened there and to fight against the enemy that was on the

8 move.

9 All the tasks I carried out before that were under the command of

10 some of the battalions. Until then, throughout I had had a direct company

11 leader or battalion commander on the spot who would issue me orders during

12 the daily combat tasks. So this was my first assignment, the first

13 assignment I got from the commander of the brigade to go, five or six

14 people volunteered then, to go directly to the field and to see what had

15 happened.

16 That is the first time that I -- how should I say this? --

17 independently made a decision on the ground to engage in fighting with the

18 enemy who was attacking, and also with some -- with a group that was in

19 the area of Jabuka. So that is the first time that I independently

20 carried out a task without any suggestions or orders directly from the

21 commander of the battalion or some other company leaders in whose zones I

22 had been working until then.

23 Q. However, Mr. Kunarac, you mentioned that the Foca Brigade was in

24 formation at that time. Could you have been fighting in Jabuka in June

25 instead of July?

Page 4700

1 A. Oh, no, no. It related to the 23rd of July. When I gave the

2 interview then, I did not know exactly when -- the exact date when the

3 attack on Jabuka took place. However, in the context of that answer of

4 mine to those questions, I understood the question then to mean when I was

5 assigned a task to work independently. That is the context in which this

6 discussion took place.

7 And then I mentioned the attack on Jabuka, that that is when I was

8 assigned a task when I independently made a decision on the ground, in the

9 field, to launch a counter-attack against the enemy who was operating

10 against those villages, was attacking. There were five or six of us, and

11 we were being joined by men who were in Jabuka at that time who managed to

12 get out. In this first fighting there was a total of 15 or 20 to us. We

13 managed to contain the enemy by the village of Podstijene. That is where

14 we organised our first offence, so to speak, and that was the 23rd of

15 July. I came to Jabuka in the morning hours, sometime around 9.00 or 9.30

16 in the morning because the mobilisation siren went off at 6.30 in the

17 morning.

18 Q. However, during your previous interview you were not sure that it

19 was June or July. How can you be sure now?

20 A. Now, after the investigation was carried out by the investigators

21 themselves, when they found documentation and according to the many

22 victims from that period, this happened in July, not before that; whereas

23 in June, as I said, judging by what I did then and by my very movements in

24 the field as I was moving from one terrain from another, from one task to

25 another, I explained where I was in the month of June before that.

Page 4701

1 Although, when I gave the second interview -- until then, that is, we were

2 based on the other part of the defence related to the investigation of the

3 witnesses concerning the rapes that had allegedly happened to them.

4 And you said yourself that we should also devote attention to what

5 happened for the first day onwards. That's what my Defence did in the

6 coming period, that is to say, during this year that has elapsed since

7 that interview.

8 Q. Mr. Kunarac, fighting took place in Jabuka in both months. Do you

9 remember that, in June and July 1992?

10 A. No. In June, in June there were incursions, mines were placed,

11 there were ambushes, but attacks on the Serb villages did not take place

12 before that. There were smaller provocations, but not such massive,

13 organised attacks like the attack carried out on the 23rd of July in the

14 morning.

15 Q. Mr. Kunarac, I was not saying attacks on Serb population, I was

16 asking if fighting took place, that is, did the Serbs not attack Jabuka

17 themselves in June 1992?

18 A. No, no. In June 1992, as the witnesses will show, those who are

19 to be called, there were no major attacks on the territory of Jabuka from

20 either side. The population, both the Serb and the Muslim population,

21 lived a relatively normal and peaceful life in the area of Jabuka, whereas

22 around Ustikolina they formed their line on the Grebak plateau, and that

23 is where they held this military line of theirs; whereas the Serb side,

24 the Serb troops, held their military line in the area of Previla. This

25 area between Previla and Grebak is the area of Jabuka, and there until

Page 4702

1 then there hadn't been any major incidents on either side.

2 Q. You claim that from the afternoon of 27th July until 29th July in

3 the morning, you were doing reconnaissance work in the area of Dragocava,

4 Godjevno and Slatine, and you stayed in the field overnight. Right?

5 A. On the 22nd, on the 22nd of June -- on the 22nd of June I was

6 given a task in the morning hours to go to Dragocava and Godjevno to

7 reconnoitre. However, on the 22nd on Tjentiste, a minibus in which there

8 was a unit -- let me just explain this, why I went then.

9 I got a task to go to Dragocava; however, then they hit a mine.

10 Nine persons were killed, and 18 were seriously wounded, so we did not go

11 out for this task. We were supposed to leave on the 23rd in the morning;

12 however, since this attack on Jabuka occurred, we went there, and we

13 stayed there until the 26th in the evening, and we were burying the dead.

14 On the 27th, early in the morning, I returned straight to Foca,

15 and then I was sent to the task where I was supposed to be dispatched on

16 the 23rd of July. So that is the 23rd of July, I remained up there

17 reconnoitring these following two nights, until 5.00 in the morning when

18 the attack on Preljuca took place on the 29th of July, when the defence

19 line itself was attacked, the one by Preljuca.

20 Q. Mr. Kunarac, I didn't intend to go into all these details again

21 because you have described this during the examination-in-chief. The only

22 thing I wanted to confirm with you is this area of Dragocava, Godjevno,

23 and Slatine is less than 15 kilometres from Foca, right?

24 A. Dragocava is six kilometres away; Godjevno, 12; and Slatine, 18 or

25 19 kilometres away.

Page 4703

1 Q. And there are connecting roads to Foca; right?

2 A. Yes, there are communicating roads.

3 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you claimed that from the 29th to the 31st of July

4 you were in Preljuca; right?

5 A. On the 29th, in the morning, Preljuca was attacked, and that is

6 why I came to Cerova Ravan. I went to Preljuca until the afternoon hours,

7 until we recaptured Preljuca, and I remained on Preljuca that night, the

8 next day; that is to say, the 30th and the night between the 30th and the

9 31st.

10 On the 31st, in the morning, I was informed -- actually, a vehicle

11 came that transported me to Foca, and we were taken to Rogoj because Rogoj

12 had fallen then. The offensive from Igman had turned in our direction.

13 Q. Although it was the site of a horrible scene in Preljuca, you did

14 not mention that during your previous interviews; right?

15 A. I did not have an opportunity to do so, because as far as the

16 first and the second interviews are concerned, I mostly had to answer

17 questions of the investigator. If I tried to explain some things, the

18 investigator would interrupt me and ask me to focus exclusively on the

19 questions that he was putting.

20 Q. But you testified that the Muslim soldiers were dragging and

21 compiling bodies of Serb soldiers at Preljuca. That's what you described

22 to us here during the testimony; right? Don't go into the details. Just

23 say yes or no.

24 A. That is correct. That happened between 1400 and 1500 hours on the

25 29th of July, on Preljuca. I saw this with my very own eyes, just as I

Page 4704

1 saw those burnt corpses when I came up there, when we had already

2 recaptured Preljuca from the enemy forces.

3 Q. To drag and compile bodies takes energy and time; right?

4 A. They mostly piled up the corpses on one area that was about 30 to

5 50 metres away from the place where they had all been piled up. The

6 fighters who were killed were mostly those who were around the command of

7 the brigade, and that is also where the mess was. That is where the

8 intervention battalion of the 5th Battalion was, and that is where they

9 were supposed to be in case of an attack on the combat post. So it is

10 only that group of people that tried to offer any resistance. Nine of

11 them were killed on the occasion; one managed to get out, he was wounded

12 when we found him, and the rest, the entire unit had been broken up and

13 they had all withdrawn from the area of Preljuca; that is to say, all of

14 them were piled up on one place that was 30 or 40 metres from the place

15 where they had been killed. So they brought them 30 or 40 metres away

16 from that place.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Kunarac please slow down a bit.

18 Interpreter's note.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20 Q. Would you please speak slower for the sake of the interpretation,

21 please.

22 And a burning corpse causes a lot of smoke; right?

23 A. Yes. I do apologise. I said that the corpses were soaked in

24 fuel, gasoline or oil, and then they threw a lit blanket on it. That is

25 also where they had scraps of food that they had put there before. All of

Page 4705

1 them were wearing their own clothing. The smoke, which was not the kind

2 of dark smoke one gets when rubber is on fire, for example, but when this

3 fire was being lit, quite a bit of fuel had been spilt there. I was about

4 400 or 450 metres away from there at a maximum, so I saw this burning

5 myself. But then there are also photographs of the charred corpses, and

6 all the other findings of the medical commission who had come out around

7 1600 or 1700 hours can also be looked into.

8 Q. Mr. Kunarac, while you went through your assignments of June and

9 July 1992, you did not mention what happened in Subo or Subi; right?

10 A. I don't understand.

11 Q. During the first interview with the Prosecutor's investigators,

12 you mentioned that you observed the inhabitants of Suba upstream, in the

13 direction of Godjevno. Do you recall that now?

14 A. The village of Suba is a village that is about eight kilometres up

15 the Cehotina River, towards Godjevno. The village stretches from Cehotina

16 uphill towards Preljuca. It was a Muslim village.

17 I said that when I was reconnoitring in that area, from the 22nd

18 or 23rd of June until the 6th, when I was transferred to Cvilin, when this

19 operation had started, I was in that area, and also two or three days

20 later, after the attack on Preljuca.

21 So the village of Suba is in front of the village of Brusana,

22 behind the village of Dragocava, about eight or nine kilometres, I

23 believe, from Foca, on the Foca-Godjevno road. The Muslim population that

24 lived there --

25 Q. Mr. Kunarac, wait a second. With the help of the usher, I would

Page 4706

1 like to show you Exhibit 21-1. That's the map that the witness Subasic

2 used.

3 I would like you to show us the village of Suba on this map.

4 A. The village of Suba is behind the village of Dragocava, upstream

5 along the Cehotina River. The right bank of the Drina River, eight or

6 nine kilometres in front of the village of Brusana, the village of Subi.

7 Here, right here. The river Plavo. Above the number 424 on the map, Subi

8 spreads towards Radina. That is the area where this population had

9 lived. Zuzelo, by trig 785. Djurkovine, it says. Above that, that is

10 the area called Suba.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kunarac. You observed the inhabitants of Suba in,

12 you said, mid-July; right?

13 A. Mid-June, after the first task that I was given, after the first

14 task that I was carrying out in the zone of responsibility of the 1st and

15 2nd Battalions. I said in that interview also that one day later I went

16 to Tjentiste, on the 19th or the 20th, I don't know the exact date. When

17 there was an ambush on the Foca-Tjentiste road, we returned on that same

18 day and --

19 Q. Please stay with Suba for a while. You said that 50 to 70

20 inhabitants were there and that they were unarmed, Muslim civilians;

21 right? You found that out.

22 A. That's right. Then, while I was reconnoitring, I saw that these

23 people consisted of entire families, men, women, children, the elderly.

24 After one incident, after one mine that was placed on the

25 Foca-Godjevno road, I went to this village and I talked to these people,

Page 4707

1 and they themselves told me then that they had agreed with the Serbs that

2 they did not want to join either the Serb or the Muslim army. And they

3 were carrying out their regular village work, but after this incident on

4 the Godjevno-Foca road, after this mine, they were afraid for their

5 lives.

6 They were afraid, as they were telling me, they were afraid that

7 other Muslims from the other villages in the area of Slatine where they

8 were could cause an incident and push them into something like that. That

9 is why they all expressed their wish to leave to one of the refugee

10 centres outside the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 I did then go to Foca. I asked for some of them to come along

12 with me. They said that they didn't want to, that they were afraid for

13 their own safety. That is when I went to headquarters myself. I conveyed

14 their request. This request was further conveyed to the SUP, and then a

15 person from the SUP came and registered all of them.

16 Then, from the village of Suba, they left in an organised fashion,

17 entire families on buses. I was not present when they were leaving, but I

18 heard later that they, all together, went to a refugee centre in Skopje.

19 Q. Let's move on to what happened in regard to DB and 75.

20 Now, according to your story, when you found out about these rape

21 allegations against you, the first thing you did was to go to the house

22 Ulica Osmana Djikica 16; right?

23 A. I went to Aladza, and I stopped at that house as well. In the

24 neighbouring house, next to that house, where a supermarket is nearby,

25 opposite the high school, that is where four men lived who had been out on

Page 4708

1 assignment with me before that. They said that they knew nothing about

2 it.

3 Then we, all together, went to the yard of Ulica Osmana Djikica

4 16. I talked to all of them and all of them said that they had nothing to

5 do with this. I was angry then, and I said that if anyone did that and

6 implicated me in any way, that I would be capable of killing him and that

7 I would be looking for punishment for these people, I would make every

8 effort to have them punished. And then I went to Partizan.

9 Q. So measures for handling such offences of soldiers were in place;

10 right?

11 A. I did this personally, as an individual, as a man who had been

12 slandered, who was accused by certain persons in the presence of a

13 journalist. They didn't report me to the authorities, but they were

14 giving an interview to a journalist who spoke to them, and the journalist

15 said they were giving an interview to her in connection to that. When I

16 heard all of that, I was hurt. And it is only for that reason that I

17 wanted to find out whether somebody did that, and why implicate me, why

18 say it was me. I wanted to find the person who had done it --

19 Q. Mr. Kunarac --

20 A. -- and until the present day --

21 Q. Mr. Kunarac, let me interrupt you. That wasn't really my

22 question. I just asked you if there were measures for handling such

23 offences in place. That means if such an offence had happened, the

24 command brigade would handle this, wouldn't it? They were the body to

25 handle those offences; right?

Page 4709

1 A. Yes, I understand your question. But I did not go as an officer

2 of any kind. All this happened in town, outside the zone of combat

3 action, and everything that went on in town came under the authorities of

4 the civilian police force, because it was the civilian police force that

5 was in charge of law and order in town.

6 So I didn't go as a commander of any kind, any type of commander,

7 to uncover the perpetrator and to punish him, but I went as a man who had

8 been slandered, to find the person who represented himself as me and who

9 linked my name up to his for something I didn't do.

10 Q. Mr. Kunarac, don't you agree that when a soldier commits an

11 offence, the military police and the command of this soldier is involved?

12 You think it's only a matter for the police?

13 A. Had any of those individuals who allegedly raped reported a

14 complaint to the military or civilian authorities and they indicated any

15 person by name or surname who had done these acts to them, then somebody

16 would be in authority to take those into individuals into custody and to

17 prosecute them legally.

18 I personally, as I said, I went personally to learn the truth, and

19 had I learnt the name of the individual who had allegedly taken them out,

20 I would have gone to the police myself, and I would have reported that

21 individual for those acts to the police. Because as I say, of the four

22 men that were there most often, one man was never there with me. I don't

23 know whether that man was ever registered with the military authorities.

24 I don't think he was in any military unit ever. I think he spent the time

25 there and lived there without being a citizen of Foca at all or involved

Page 4710

1 and recorded and registered with the military. He just made use of this

2 to go about his own private business.

3 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you never informed the local police, not at that time

4 and also not later when this unsuccessful confrontation had taken place,

5 and you was very close to the police building, right?

6 A. That particular day when I took them to Miljevina, I wanted to

7 confront the journalist because Witness DB, when she talked to me, claimed

8 that it was none of those men. And it was my intention to confront her

9 with the journalist to learn a name, if I could. And -- but then I was

10 given my assignment to go to Rogoj again and returned on the 8th. So that

11 after Gaga's wounding, while he was in hospital, I think it was the 13th,

12 before Vido's funeral, I talked to him, and he did tell me on the occasion

13 what happened behind closed doors. The following day or one day later --

14 Q. Mr. Kunarac, we do not need to go into these details now. I just

15 asked you a very simple question. I asked you if - asked you that you

16 never informed the police, and you just simply could have said "yes".

17 A. I also said in the interview that after that I talked to Dragan

18 Gagovic and discussed the matter on one occasion. But that those people

19 had already left the Partizan, and I did not have the party to whom the

20 damage had been done for her to point out any of these people, anyone.

21 Q. Mr. Kunarac, and you also did never inform the military police or

22 the brigade command, right?

23 A. I am telling you that I had no tangible proof against any

24 individual. What happened to me with Witness DB I described as and how it

25 happened. On the 13th of August, I learnt what had happened to Witness

Page 4711

1 DB; Gaga told me. But, when the witnesses -- and I thought that they had

2 left the Partizan with all the others, at the time I had none of the

3 injured parties there for me to be able to report anybody and for the

4 injured party to be able to confirm this.

5 I couldn't go and say this person did that to the person in

6 question without having the injured party at hand to confirm this. So

7 that day on the 3rd, I tried to find this individual and report him to the

8 competent authorities.

9 Q. You described how Gaga and you brought DB and 75 to the house and

10 confronted them with the men. When you brought them to the house, you

11 knew that they were scared, right?

12 A. While we talked in front of the Partizan, and the whole time they

13 were uncertain of themselves and didn't feel comfortable; but I kept

14 trying to convince them that they had no reason to worry, no reason to

15 fear, that I was just interested in learning the truth, and that I wanted

16 to help them. So I did feel that they felt rather uncomfortable and were

17 not at ease. Not fear, I wouldn't say fear because I didn't do anything

18 which could, during our conversation, make them additionally afraid.

19 Q. After the confrontation with your men, you did not believe that

20 the girls had lied, did you?

21 A. I confronted them with the men who were present there, who had

22 lived there, and with a number of people who were in the field with me.

23 There were about ten to 12 men there at the time, and they at the time, on

24 the spot, when I asked whether they recognised anybody, they shook their

25 heads. And when I talked to them -- in the negative.

Page 4712

1 And when I talked to them without the presence of anybody else, I

2 said they shouldn't be afraid and to tell me quite frankly whether any of

3 those people had come to the Partizan and whether they knew any of them,

4 and they maintained that none of those people who were there at the time

5 were the ones who came to take them out.

6 Q. That wasn't really my question. My question was, you did not

7 believe at that time that the girls had lied about the rapes, right?

8 Because you did not end the matter and return them to Partizan, but you

9 continued, right? That means you believed them.

10 A. When I talked to them at the Partizan, I did believe that they had

11 really been taken out. When they pointed the house out to me, I did

12 believe that they had been in that particular house, and that is why I

13 wanted to have them point out the people who did that to them. But when

14 we got there, they did not point anybody out, and they claimed that it was

15 none of them.

16 And then when I discussed this with them and DB, I talked to her

17 two, two and a half hours, she said that she was in that particular house,

18 that she had been there, that she had been brought there, but that none of

19 the people who were there then were the ones who had brought her there and

20 mistreated her. Therefore, she had convinced me that somebody had indeed

21 taken her out, that she had been raped. I believed her when she told me

22 that, but she did not tell me the name of the person, nor did she point

23 that person out to me. I don't know if that answers your question.

24 Q. You said that you spent two and a half, up to three hours with DB

25 behind closed doors in the house, right?

Page 4713

1 A. We came to the house sometime around nine and left at about noon.

2 I can't give you an exact estimate of the time, but it was two and a half

3 to three hours. I spent that time with her in the house, and I talked to

4 her in the other room, in the left-hand room, in that room. And after

5 that conversation, the incident took place which I have already described,

6 which I described in my first interview, in my second interview, and

7 during my testimony here.

8 Q. Yes. And Gaga had threatened the Witness DB before she had this

9 intercourse with you, right?

10 A. I did not know that at the time, nor did she tell me that at the

11 time. She did not tell me that at all then.

12 Q. But you learnt later on that he threatened her?

13 A. He told me that on the 10th of August later on in another house

14 when I talked to him, and when I mentioned what happened to me on that

15 day. Then he told me that it was his fault that that had taken place, and

16 then he told me that he had talked to her, and that at the time when she

17 had gone to take a shower, that he had told her that she should fend for

18 herself, but that she must not tell me who mistreated her because then

19 there would be a clash between me and that perpetrator and that somebody

20 could be killed.

21 And he explained to me that that was through his desire to protect

22 me from coming into a conflict with somebody else, with the perpetrators

23 of that act. And he swore to me that he didn't know who the perpetrators

24 were, and then told me that he had indeed spoken to Witness DB. He

25 claimed that he had not mistreated her in any physical way or threatened

Page 4714

1 her in any way at all, so that when she came back to the room, I continued

2 our conversation. I kept asking her to tell me who the people were who

3 had taken her out. Afterwards, she entreated me not to ask her any more,

4 but -- and she had told me that she had been taken out. I wanted her to

5 tell me, to own up --

6 Q. Mr. Kunarac --

7 A. -- but she wouldn't.

8 Q. -- let's stop here because you have testified in detail about this

9 situation a few days ago. We don't need to repeat this here.

10 But your versions of the circumstances of this interview -- of

11 this intercourse have actually changed. Let me tell you. During your

12 first statement you said that you committed a rape of DB at the wish of

13 someone else, and you also said that you sexually exploited her, and she

14 was in fear. Right?

15 A. No. I said then in that first interview that, and I told you,

16 that I said what I felt. And even today I cannot describe my state at

17 that time. And Gaga, when he talked to her, he said, "Do what God has

18 taught you, but you must stop him from seeking out these perpetrators

19 further."

20 Q. Mr. Kunarac --

21 A. And then --

22 Q. Mr. Kunarac, let me cite from your first statement. It's Exhibit

23 67, tape 1, side B, page 6 and 7. "I did sexually exploit this person,

24 and now I know that this person did not want that. I did some horrible

25 things because of the fear which this person had in front of me. At that

Page 4715

1 moment with that person, I applied no force. This person did have sexual

2 intercourse with me. She was under pressure. She was in fear from

3 another person. I committed a rape at the wish of someone else without my

4 own desire."

5 You said that; that's in the transcript. And during your first

6 interview, you also said that you took some of your clothing off and she

7 some of hers, right?

8 A. I said then and I say now that when Gaga talked to her, he said to

9 her that she should fend for herself, but that she should prevent me from

10 seeking these perpetrators further. And I -- when I asked her to tell me

11 who these men were, she reacted by taking the initiative, and the

12 initiative led to sexual intercourse later.

13 I claim -- I maintain that I had done nothing to indicate that I

14 wanted to have sexual intercourse with her. I never asked her whether she

15 wanted sex or did anything in that way which could lead her to believe

16 that I wanted to have sexual relations with her.

17 At that particular moment, I claim that I was completely confused

18 by what was going on, by the whole situation, and had she not begun to do

19 what she did, there would never have been any sexual intercourse at all,

20 any sexual relations at all. I claim that now, and I claimed that then.

21 Q. You said during your first interview, you described what had taken

22 place like a regular intercourse, similar to an intercourse you would have

23 with your wife or a lover. That's what you said.

24 A. When I said that, when I was asked how the sexual intercourse came

25 about, I said that I applied no kind of force or did anything that I

Page 4716

1 personally could understand as a rape, and I don't see that today, either.

2 When all this was going on, at that particular moment she herself

3 started to physically excite me and to engage in sexual relations; that is

4 to say, she was a Muslim, I was a Serb, but the sexual relationship that I

5 had with her at the time was not a relationship, was not something that I

6 could call unnatural [sic] sexual relations.

7 Q. Mr. Kunarac, during your testimony you said that the sexual

8 intercourse occurred against your will. Didn't you say that?

9 A. I said then, and I claim now, too, that I had no desire or

10 intention when I brought her there before all this happened, I had no

11 intention of having sexual relations with her. But her behaviour, and I

12 can say this quite freely, that I could not have avoided having sexual

13 relations with her. I wanted to talk. She started to caress me and

14 fondle me all over my body, and at that time I accepted what she was

15 doing. And I said because of everything that Gaga had previously told

16 her, she abused herself and her own body, in fact, and she probably

17 against her will, did what she did.

18 But I state absolutely, that at no moment did I -- at any time did

19 I do anything which would allow her to conclude that I wanted to have

20 sexual intercourse with her. As I say, even today I have a bad -- this is

21 on my conscience. It was then, and I am now, but I was confused by the

22 entire situation, by her behaviour in the first place, so that I could not

23 avoid what happened. I was unable to avoid it.

24 And I gave that interview before I had any documents, any

25 statements, anything whatsoever. I gave you that interview on the 13th of

Page 4717

1 March when I arrived here. I had the indictment, that's what I had, and I

2 said on the basis of that indictment, that I felt guilty, that I had a

3 moral -- that I had a bad conscience, and I felt morally guilty, and I was

4 sorry for what happened, and I would like to apologise sincerely to that

5 individual for the fact that what happened, happened.

6 But as I explained on the 13th of March, I did my best to explain

7 this situation to the -- I did this to the best of my ability, and that is

8 the truth. At no time whatsoever did I wish to have sexual relations with

9 her, neither did I make this suggestion, neither did I ask her whether she

10 wanted to have sex with me. I said that I had sexual relations with this

11 individual against my own will at the time. But when she was taking over

12 the initiative, as she herself said, she did excite me physically. I did

13 not refuse her physically, as a woman.

14 Q. But it was not against your will, actually. You were not raped by

15 the witness, were you?

16 A. She didn't apply force, any kind of force. And asked by Her

17 Honour the Judge whether she seduced me, in answer to her question I said

18 that it wasn't rape. She did not rape me in any way. But quite

19 certainly, and I claim this, that for ten, 15, 20 minutes, she kissed me,

20 she fondled me, and did everything to excite me, to excite me manhood.

21 And when she succeeded, as I say, I was lying on my back all the time, and

22 I was underneath her all the time. What happened did happen. We did have

23 sexual intercourse, complete vaginal penetration, and after that act she

24 got up, went out, and I went out later on after her.

25 I don't know whether you can understand the situation I was in at

Page 4718

1 the time. But I swear on the lives of all my three children that at no

2 time whatsoever did I desire to have any relations with this individual,

3 nor was that my intention ever. And only for that reason, because that

4 happened, I came here voluntarily, of my own free will, of my own free

5 accord, to explain to the Trial Chamber what happened on that occasion.

6 And that is why I do feel moral responsibility for having allowed myself

7 to have sexual intercourse in a situation of that kind, and that preys on

8 my conscience, but I did not know at the time, under the circumstances,

9 how to avoid it.

10 Q. Mr. Kunarac, let's put things straight. Even according to your

11 version of the incident, you were aware that DB and 75 were afraid while

12 in the house, right? I can cite to you what you said.

13 A. Let me tell you once again. When I brought them there and the

14 people were there, the men were there, they were -- they did feel

15 uncomfortable and afraid of the situation. But in my desire to learn the

16 truth, to learn who the individual was that they were afraid of, who the

17 person was who had abused them beforehand, I went through with this. And

18 I talked to DB for two to two and a half hours, and on her part she was

19 very sincere and frank. She told me, and very open, she told me how she

20 came to be there, how --

21 Q. Mr. Kunarac, we do not need to have a repetition of this. I will

22 cite to you what you said during your first statement. It's Exhibit 67,

23 tape 2, side A, page 1 and 2: "I realised that there was fear. By their

24 behaviour, I felt fear. They were dishevelled; they were dirty. At that

25 time they hated me because I was the enemy of their people. I was the

Page 4719

1 enemy of their side in the conflict. She was crying," referring to DB.

2 "She started crying. She was kneeding her hands."

3 So you knew that she was afraid.

4 A. Yes, that she was crying, that she was kneeding her hands. But

5 she pleaded with me not to ask her who those men were, and I said in that

6 context that she was afraid and she was crying.

7 While we were talking and when I asked her to tell me -- pleaded

8 with her to tell me who they were, who the man was who said my name, she

9 asked me not to keep asking her to divulge the name. I said that then,

10 and I later on --

11 Q. Mr. Kunarac, she knew you only for one or two hours before the

12 intercourse; right?

13 A. A maximum of three hours.

14 Q. And you knew she had been raped while in Partizan; right?

15 A. I assumed that, and she said that some people took her out and

16 that that was what had happened to her.

17 Q. She was brought to the house to be confronted with a pack of

18 soldiers; right?

19 A. I brought her with the intention of having her point out the

20 person who had mistreated her and who had possibly raped her, taken her

21 out and possibly raped her.

22 Q. She was upset and crying; right?

23 A. She was crying after, that is to say, an hour after having taken a

24 shower and after my insisting that she give me the name of the person who

25 had taken her out, if it was one of the men there or a local man, because

Page 4720

1 she claimed it wasn't a Montenegrin, Zaga or Zaga's men.

2 Q. You, for her, were the enemy; right?

3 A. At that moment, when she told me who she was and what she was, I

4 knew she was a Muslim.

5 At the time, in front of the Partizan, she had told me that they

6 had been mistreated and taken out. I did everything in my power to learn

7 the truth and to help that individual. That was my wish, to help her and

8 to wash my name clean, so to speak, cleanse my name, because I had nothing

9 to do with it. I had been accused by the journalist, slandered, that I

10 was the person who had taken them out and raped them or whatever.

11 Q. Mr. Kunarac, taking all these circumstances of her fear, of her

12 not knowing you, of you being the enemy, of being in a house with a pack

13 of soldiers, you knew that she didn't want to have sex with you, didn't

14 you?

15 A. That is precisely why I was as confused as I was in that situation

16 in that room. When she herself started -- I say again, I don't know how

17 to explain that situation to you, how to explain the fact that she had

18 taken the initiative which led to sexual intercourse. I cannot find words

19 to explain it other than I did, in any other way than I have endeavoured

20 to do. Her behaviour did confuse me, and I didn't know what to do at the

21 time. She caught me unaware.

22 Q. Mr. Kunarac, the rape of DB took place, as you said, on that same

23 floor, in the same house where Witness 75 was gang-raped; right?

24 A. I didn't know that at the time. I didn't know that that had

25 happened at the time.

Page 4721

1 Q. But it did. You learned later that it did.

2 A. I learnt that on the 13th of August, in the morning, in the

3 hospital from Gaga, that Witness 75 had been raped by him and three other

4 soldiers.

5 Q. While you were in the room with DB, you knew that 75 was there

6 with all the other soldiers; right?

7 A. I absolutely had no idea what was going on. I did not assume at

8 all, for one single moment, that what was happening to her was happening.

9 Q. But you left her alone with these other soldiers for hours, didn't

10 you?

11 A. When (redacted) and Gaga came into the room and when I started

12 talking to her, I said that I had talked to her for at least two hours,

13 and at no point did anything happen between us. It was just talk. I just

14 insisted that she tell me who that person was. Then I asked her where she

15 was from, how she was, and all that kind of thing, and she was frank and

16 open in the conversation with me. At that particular moment, I could not

17 have even envisaged that anything was happening to that other person in

18 that house.

19 Q. But you knew that she was together with these other soldiers, the

20 soldiers you actually suspected to have been raping, the soldiers who you

21 confronted.

22 A. I said in the interview, and I testified here too, that when they

23 saw me and Gaga for the first time -- they claimed that they saw me and

24 Gaga for the first time. So I was certain that I had never gone up there,

25 and I believed that Gaga had not either.

Page 4722

1 That other one stayed with Gaga and they asserted that Bano, Miga

2 and Tolja, whom I had seen in front of the building, in front of the

3 supermarket, were not the three men. In fact, they didn't live in that

4 house. I believed that those four men were not with them. I was not even

5 able to suspect or envisage that what happened to her did happen, because

6 the other people who were there, neither of them, neither of those girls

7 pointed out anybody or intimated that they knew any of the men at all.

8 They claimed that they knew none of the men that made up that group

9 there.

10 Q. Mr. Kunarac, when you spoke to --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lopicic.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.

14 MS. LOPICIC: I'm sorry. On my laptop, on page 91, line 7, it

15 says the name of the protected witness. I would like to ask if it can be

16 erased, please.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, thank you. It has actually been noted by the

18 registrar. Thank you.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20 Q. Mr. Kunarac, when you spoke to the investigators of the Tribunal

21 during your second interview, on the 22nd of April, 1999, you had

22 meanwhile read the statement of Witness 75; right?

23 A. Yes, after that I did.

24 Q. You told the investigators that Witness 75 speaks more truth than

25 anyone; right?

Page 4723

1 A. In that first statement of hers, she said quite a few true

2 things. I said that then. At least what I knew and at least concerning

3 the things that I knew happened, that is to say, things that concerned

4 myself. I said then I read that first statement of hers. In that

5 statement of hers, she said that she was gang-raped in that house. Later

6 she mentions that she was allegedly taken away on the 2nd, and I maintain

7 that it was on the 3rd.

8 In that same statement, she says what she described before, what

9 happened to her, and she also said that DB told her that she had not been

10 raped, that she had talked to me, because I told DB that somebody had to

11 be punished for that and that she had been punished for that. However, I

12 maintain that I was telling DB all the time that I wanted the person who

13 possibly took them out to be punished, not that I want to punish somebody

14 else, neither of the two of them.

15 Also Witness 75 mentioned the names of persons who moved around

16 that house from time to time, but the period she spent there later near

17 that house, the period she mentions later, having been in the house of

18 some Jojic, I think, that is very close to that house. And I think that

19 then she met all those men and that she got to know all their names. Not

20 in this house when she came there on the 3rd of August.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Prosecutor, can we have identification of this

22 first statement? What is the exhibit number? The first statement of ...

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Defence Exhibit --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: 75?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It was a Defence Exhibit. I don't have the

Page 4724

1 number right now. It's D24.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I just wanted to be sure so we can

3 countercheck. Thank you.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

5 Q. Exhibit 69, page 56, that is where you mentioned that this witness

6 mostly speaks more truth than anybody else.

7 Mr. Kunarac, she testified that you saw her being raped and you

8 ordered her to get dressed.

9 A. I heard that part of her statement too, but I am claiming that

10 when I got out of the room, DB was also sitting in the first room to the

11 left where we sat before that.

12 Q. Let's move on to your taking the girls to Miljevina.

13 After the unsuccessful confrontation at Ulica Osmana Djikica, you

14 did not stop your investigation; right? You claim that you took the girls

15 from Partizan to Miljevina to confront them with the journalist; right?

16 A. That's right. Because after everything that had happened between

17 myself and Witness DB, I tried to describe to you the state that I was

18 in. I believed that Witness DB had been telling me the truth and that the

19 journalist was the one who had lied.

20 At that moment, I believed that DB had not mentioned my name or

21 had linked me in any way to what had happened to her, and I wanted to

22 confront her with the journalist herself. And then, when they would come

23 face to face, I would find out who these persons were, because the

24 journalist was the one who, for I don't know which reasons, told me the

25 story of myself being the person who had taken them out, because they had

Page 4725

1 mentioned my name. However, at that time I did not bring them face to

2 face due to the circumstances that I already described.

3 They remained at Miljevina against my will, against my wish. When

4 I left, I asked DP3, I told him where I took them from and I asked him to

5 take them back, when I was going out to Kalinovik to carry out my task.

6 He said that there was no problem whatsoever, that he would do it, but he

7 did not do that. And I found out about that --

8 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you did not confront them with the journalist on that

9 occasion, and later on also, never, did you?

10 A. Then, when I came up there, I told you the journalist was not

11 there where the rest were. DP3 sent a man to bring her there so that they

12 could be confronted. After a maximum of 15 or 20 minutes, she had not

13 arrived yet. But the person superior to me came to me and told me that I

14 was urgently to go to Rogoj because Rogoj had fallen again. So she had

15 not come, the journalist had not come on that day.

16 Q. Yes, you have already told us all this in detail. But my question

17 was: You did not follow up with the journalist on a later occasion.

18 Never; right?

19 A. Later, only in September, sometime around the 20th or 22nd,

20 something like that, was the first time that I found out that these

21 persons were not returned to Partizan and that they remained in Foca.

22 Q. So when you left them in Miljevina, you never checked if they

23 really returned safely; is that what you say?

24 A. At that moment, when I told Witness DP3 where they had been

25 brought from and when he told me that he would return them, I was sure

Page 4726

1 that he would do that. I did not check whether they had been returned,

2 because I returned on the 8th and I had an accident. And all the other

3 things that happened until they left from Partizan, I did not go to

4 Partizan for a single moment to check whether they were there.

5 Q. Mr. Kunarac, the girls told you that they had been raped. They

6 only didn't point out one of your men who did it; right?

7 A. Not my men. They did not point out anyone who had done that, nor

8 did they mention any name or surname as to the person who had done that.

9 Q. Confrontation with the journalist would not help to identify the

10 rapist, would it?

11 A. For me personally, I'm telling you, when what happened with DB

12 happened, and concerning the entire turn of events that occurred in the

13 room between her and me, she claimed that she did not know who these

14 persons were and she beseeched me not to ask her anything more about

15 that. She claimed that she had not mentioned my name.

16 Now, what did I wish to achieve through the confrontation between

17 her and the journalist? I wanted the journalist to confirm that I did not

18 invent that somebody was using my name. That is what was the problem for

19 me. Because she said that she had not mentioned at any point Zaga or

20 Zaga's men, and that is what the journalist said, that they said -- that

21 the persons that she talked to said that Zaga and Zaga's men had taken her

22 out. And that was the reason why I went to check all of that out.

23 Q. Mr. Kunarac, the girls did not deny having spoken to the

24 journalist, and they also didn't deny that they had mentioned your name;

25 right?

Page 4727

1 A. They denied -- they did not deny that they talked to the

2 journalist, but they denied having mentioned my name. They said that they

3 did not mention Zaga, or they said that they never said that Zaga took

4 them out. And then I insisted that they show me those who had, the

5 persons who had taken them out, because I had no reason not to believe

6 either the journalist, who claimed that my name was mentioned --

7 Q. Let me cite from your previous statement, Exhibit 69, page 74.

8 That is a statement from the 22nd of April, 1999:

9 "So when I went to Partizan on the 3rd of August, I called those

10 by the name because the journalist gave me the names. I asked them if

11 they were raped, if they were taken some place. I knew I had not done

12 that, but they said that some people did. At first they denied the

13 conversation with the journalist, and then 75 admitted that she mentioned

14 my name because she thought it was me."

15 That means there was no reason to confront the girls with the

16 journalist, was there?

17 A. At one moment, when we were in front of Partizan at the very

18 beginning, 75 said, at one moment, that she had mentioned some men and

19 that she had heard of Zaga. But in the conversation with DB, DB claimed

20 to me that my name was not mentioned at a single point in time, nor was it

21 said that I had come to Partizan, or my men, to take them out.

22 Q. The confrontation with the journalist, especially taking Witness

23 190 from Gacko for this confrontation, that doesn't make sense, does it?

24 A. Which witness?

25 Q. Witness 190, the girl from Gacko.

Page 4728

1 A. That person has nothing to do with the journalist, not as far as I

2 can remember.

3 Q. Yes, exactly. Mr. Kunarac, today you claim that you took three

4 girls to Miljevina; right?

5 A. Yesterday, when I testified here, I said that I was sure I took

6 Witness DB and 75 up there. And I am sure that 87 was not there when I

7 came the second time. When I asked DB where she was, she told me that in

8 the meantime she had gone somewhere. I'm sure that she was not there.

9 I know that the other two were, and I know that in the morning I

10 talked with four for sure, and I know in the morning that 75 -- no, 75 and

11 87, the sister of DB, were there, and that she and this other one returned

12 to Partizan.

13 When I came later, when I found out where the journalist was, I

14 know for sure that 87 at that time was not in Partizan. That's what DB

15 told me, that she was not there. Whether a third person was in the car

16 then -- well, at any rate, even if there was, it was the person who was,

17 in the morning, in front of Partizan and who I talked to in relation to

18 the conversation with the journalist.

19 But 190, I think that she could not have been in Partizan, nor

20 that she was in Partizan, nor that I could have taken her out of

21 Partizan. It is for sure that I did not take person 190 to Miljevina, nor

22 did I have the opportunity of seeing that person there.

23 Q. Mr. Kunarac, during your first interview you said that you

24 transferred DB, 75, and another two women to Miljevina.

25 A. I'm telling you, I maintain that I took four persons out of

Page 4729

1 Partizan in the morning and I talked to them. That is where 75 was, DB,

2 and 87 -- 87, and this other youngish person. I really don't know who she

3 was, this fourth person. I took DB and 75. And then when I found out

4 where the journalist was, when I returned to Partizan, I took DB and 75

5 out and I asked DB where her sister was, because I had promised to her, in

6 this entire conversation that had taken place before that during those two

7 and a half hours, that if she would tell me who this person was that I

8 would protect her and that I would take her out of this area. But I

9 insisted only that she tell me who this person is, the person who took her

10 out before that and who had introduced himself as me.

11 So then I was looking for her sister because I was convinced --

12 she had convinced me, DB had convinced me that she had not mentioned my

13 name, that the journalist had invented all of this. So I wanted to

14 confront her with the journalist.

15 After that I maintain that had they told me who had done it, I

16 would have certainly filed a criminal report against this person and I

17 certainly would have protected them in the best possible way, and I would

18 have taken them to wherever they would have wanted to go.

19 Q. Mr. Kunarac, let me recite from Exhibit 67, tape 2, side A, pages

20 6 and 7. "I went to Partizan again, and I take all four persons and take

21 them to Miljevina, and afterwards I sit down with a certain person and ask

22 them to find Gordana. At that time, I get a direction task, radio

23 communication. At that point these four persons I left behind with DB3,

24 the commander of the battalion in Miljevina, the four of them without any

25 instruction."

Page 4730

1 You mentioned constantly four, and now you actually even reduce

2 this to two, that is DB and 75.

3 A. Yes. I still leave the possibility, even now, that there were

4 three persons. I was sure that 75 was there, and I'm sure that DB was

5 there. Whether a third person was there in the car then when I departed

6 from Miljevina -- for Miljevina, I really don't know. But I know that 87

7 was not there because DB told me that she had been taken away before

8 that. And I claim that I took them before Zelene Kafana [phoen] where

9 Witness D3 [sic] was and where other people were sitting at tables, and I

10 maintain that in that part, Witness 75 is telling the truth, how we went

11 to Miljevina, and that she stayed there, and then later they transferred

12 to Karaman's House. But I really don't know, if this third person was

13 there, who this third person was because --

14 Q. Mr. Kunarac, the soldiers in Miljevina were dangerous people,

15 right?

16 A. A group of men, yes.

17 Q. And you yourself said, and let me cite you from your statement,

18 Exhibit 71, page 10, "This was a weird place and quite weird people."

19 Right?

20 A. Yes. When I went to the house on -- when I went home on the 19th

21 or 20th of September, as I already told you -- or rather, when I went to

22 this house, rather strange people would gather there.

23 Q. So this is where you took and left the girls and didn't bother

24 about it any more, right?

25 A. It is not correct that I took them there. I brought them in

Page 4731

1 front -- to in front of the cafe. When I left, when I got an assignment

2 and went to carry it out, they stayed there in front of the cafe with the

3 commander of this battalion. I told him where I took them out of, and he

4 said that he would do his best to return them.

5 I think that that is what was done. I was convinced that on the

6 12th or 13th when the others were taken out to Partizan, that they were

7 taken away as well. I found out only on the 19th that they were there,

8 and that's when I talked to DB, and then she told me that they had not

9 been returned on that day but that they were taken to that house.

10 Q. Let's move on to another matter. Mr. Kunarac, on either the 9th

11 or the 10th, Gaga told you about what happened, the circumstances of the

12 rape of DB and the gang-rape of 75, right? 9th or 10th August, 1992.

13 A. No. The 10th of August, Gaga told me what happened to DB when we

14 talked in the house at Trnovace on the 10th in the morning. I talked to

15 him then, and I said to him what had happened to me with DB on that day.

16 Nothing was clear about that, and I told him fully what had happened on

17 that day, how the sexual intercourse took place and everything. And then

18 he told me that he is to be blamed for what had happened. He told me then

19 that he had talked to DB, and that she had behaved in such a way and acted

20 in such a way because he told her then to do whatever she could, but not

21 to tell me who these persons were who had mistreated her because I could

22 get into a conflict with them, and I could lose my life in that conflict.

23 He told me then, but he did not tell me what had happened with

24 person 75. He told me that only three or four days later in hospital. I

25 think it was on the 13th when he was in a hospital bed, in hospital.

Page 4732

1 Because when he told me about DB, my ribs were broken then and I was in a

2 very serious physical condition, he saw on me how much all of this had

3 affected him [sic]. I cursed him then; I cussed him out. I don't know

4 what I said, but he left that house, and after that, he was wounded. He

5 was wounded at Miljevina.

6 When he found out that those girls had remained up there, he told

7 me after that that he had had the intention of returning those girls, but

8 there was a conflict with the men in Miljevina where he was wounded, and

9 he died about 10 days later. I think he died around the 19th or 20th of

10 August.

11 Q. Let me cite from your previous statement, Exhibit 67, tape 2, side

12 B, page 2 and 3. "Gaga Vukovic told me this on the 9th or the 10th. Gaga

13 was telling me what was happening behind closed door when I was with [name

14 redacted]. It is true that I had two fractured ribs at that time.

15 Physically I was not in -- was in a bad shape at that moment, and

16 personally I was not able to go there. Also, I had some suspicions they

17 had remained at Miljevina, and I asked Gaga to go and bring those persons

18 to me because I realised that I had made a mistake. And then I issued an

19 order to Gaga to go over there and bring them to me so that I could

20 protect them, so he goes to Miljevina, and he was wounded up there by the

21 Serbs."

22 That means you suspected these girls to be in Miljevina, and you

23 sent Gaga there to bring them to you?

24 A. When Gaga told me then what had happened to DB and what he had

25 done to DB, when I realised why this sexual intercourse between myself and

Page 4733

1 DB had occurred, then I was offended by all of this, and I was angry at

2 him why he did it. I suspected then that even he might have been one of

3 the persons who knew what had happened earlier. And then I did say that I

4 minded about all of this, and that I wanted to protect these persons

5 further on, that I did suspect that they were taken out and raped.

6 However, he was wounded at Miljevina, and I know that whatever had

7 happened had something to do with some girls. And it was my suspicion

8 then that they had stayed up there; however, due to my personal security

9 reasons, I could not go there then because while Gaga was still alive, he

10 begged me not to get interfere -- not to interfere and not to get involved

11 there because I would lose my life. That is what he begged me on the 13th

12 of August by his hospital bed, and there were other witnesses present.

13 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you are aware that the 2nd of August, 1992, is a very

14 important date, right? It's the day when many rapes occurred, especially

15 the night.

16 A. According to the statements made by these witnesses, yes, quite a

17 few things happened on this 2nd of August.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Prosecutor, how long do you think you need to

19 complete cross-examination?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I cannot finish today. I will need, I think,

21 about another hour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. We have some two motions to deal with, and

23 maybe we can adjourn the cross-examination until tomorrow at 0930 hours.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Of course.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: There's one motion which we can deal with in open

Page 4734

1 session. This is the one dealing with Dr. Stanko Bejatovic on the legal

2 expert. The decision of the Trial Chamber is that the Prosecutor's

3 objection to the expert opinion of Dr. Bejatovic, in particular, the

4 paragraphs that the Prosecution were objecting to, these objections are

5 overruled by the Trial Chamber. That leaves the Defence expert's opinion

6 as it stands.

7 We should now move into private session for the other one which is

8 a confidential one.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.59 p.m., to

22 be reconvened on Tuesday the 11th day of June, 2000,

23 at 9.30 a.m.

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