1 Wednesday, 19 July 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. The registrar please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Before we proceed, the Trial Chamber
10 has been informed that Radomir Kovac is ill this morning, and we would
11 like to confirm with the Defence counsel whether we can proceed in the
12 absence of Mr. Radomir Kovac.
13 Mr. Kolesar, please.
14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the accused Radomir
15 Kovac and I, as his Defence counsel, agreed that the trial continue in his
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. We are continuing with
18 examination-in-chief. Mr. Prodanovic, please.
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 WITNESS: GORDAN MASTILO [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
23 Q. Mr. Mastilo, yesterday during your examination-in-chief, at the
24 moment when you mentioned that you can mention the names of all the people
25 whose corpses you have found in the days that followed the event, you
1 mentioned -- please enumerate them.
2 A. Yes. I said that. I can name all the people who were killed on
3 that day. Ostoja Cosovic and his wife, whose wife's name I don't know
4 because we called her Jevicka [phoen]; Mirko Cosovic; Borivoje Cosovic;
5 and Mladen Cosovic; Milos Vukovic, Andjelka Trivun, Milos Trivun, and
6 Radivoje Trivun.
7 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we're objecting to this line of
8 questioning. The Prosecution wonders why it's relevant to have the names
9 of so many people on the record.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, you heard. It's not necessary to
11 have everybody who was killed named unless a particular person and the
12 name is relevant, that affect the counts the accused are facing.
13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we believe this is
14 relevant and that this is the best way to check whether the witness is
15 speaking the truth. Later we will have a question related to a person who
16 was killed at that time and whose name the accused Kunarac mentioned in
17 his interview.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Why don't you just lead him on that name? I don't
19 see that the number of people or their identity is relevant to any issue
20 in this case. But you say that there is one which is relevant because
21 Mr. Kunarac mentioned him, ask him about that one.
22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in this way, we are
23 trying to prove how long it took to find all those bodies, dead bodies,
24 and we wish also to prove that the witness is speaking the truth. But if
25 the Trial Chamber finds this irrelevant, we will withdraw the question.
1 JUDGE HUNT: If you want to prove the time that it took, ask him
2 how many bodies, but we do not need their names unless there is some
3 particular significance in the name of one of them, and you say there may
4 be. So ask him about that one, but ask him to tell us how many. You
5 started yesterday by asking him how many and that may be relevant to the
6 issue you raise, but their names are not relevant.
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I withdraw this
9 Q. Please look at these two papers. You have given your statement to
10 the Defence, once on the 28th November of 1998, and another one on the
11 28th of October, 1999.
12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the usher to give
13 these papers to the witness.
14 Q. And there is a statement you gave to the investigator of the
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have them numbered for identification since
17 they're two different and they're going to be discussed? Can we have the
18 numbers, please, for identification only?
19 THE REGISTRAR: [No interpretation]
20 JUDGE MUMBA: We're not getting the interpretation in English.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The Registry says that they do not have these
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I repeat, the Registry does not
24 have these documents. The Registry does have some documents, but they do
25 not bear the dates which have been mentioned.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, I take it -- I can see sufficient
2 copies coming. So you said that the statements you've given the witness
3 to look at are dated 28th November, 1998, and 28th October, 1999. Those
4 are the statements given by the witness to you?
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And there is a
6 third statement given by the witness on the 12th of February, year 2000,
7 to the investigators of the Tribunal.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Are you going to use that one as well?
9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: So we have three.
11 Yes, Mr. Kolesar.
12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my client has just
13 undergone a brief medical examination, and he asks to be taken to the
14 ambulatory department, and the trial may continue meanwhile.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So he is being taken care of by the
16 medical people, I take it. The trial will continue. Thank you,
17 Mr. Kolesar.
18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: So Madam Registrar, we have three statements. Can
20 we have the numbers for identification only.
21 THE REGISTRAR: [No interpretation]
22 JUDGE MUMBA: We're not getting the English translation. The
23 interpreter in English, can you get the registrar in French?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: But we're not getting the interpretation.
1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, I will repeat the translation.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] So the statement dated 12 February
3 2000 will be marked for identification D139, the statement of the 28th
4 November 1998 will be marked for identification D138 as Defence Exhibit,
5 and the statement dated 28th October 1999 will be marked D137 as Defence
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.
8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Have you looked at these statements, and can you confirm that
10 those are your signatures on the statement?
11 A. Yes, I have seen them. Those are my signatures.
12 Q. Will you stick by these statements?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, I would like the Chamber
15 to -- I would like to tender these documents into evidence.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, any objection or submission?
17 MS. KUO: No objection, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: The three statements as dated and announced by the
19 registrar are now admitted into evidence. I just want to ask the
20 registrar whether they will retain the same formal numbers as exhibits
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Those documents will keep the same
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
25 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.
1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Let us stay for a while with your statement you gave to the
3 investigators of the Tribunal. You said in that statement that on the
4 23rd you saw Mr. Kunarac, who came with several people, and you described
5 that you knew Konta, Gaga, and Bane, and that you didn't know who the
6 leader of that group was.
7 Did you notice on anyone's dress any sign of rank or anything like
9 A. There was no sign of rank. They didn't even look like a serious
10 military unit. They were dressed half in civilian clothes, half in
12 Q. Could you conclude that Zaga was the leader of that group?
13 A. No. He wasn't giving any orders, and you couldn't say he was the
14 commander of that group, but you could say that he had experience in the
15 proposals he gave. He suggested taking a roundabout way towards Kozja,
16 things like that.
17 Q. In your statement yesterday and in the statement you gave to the
18 investigators, you said that the first night, that is the 23rd of July,
19 Kunarac remained in Podstijena with several other people, and that he
20 spent the night there where you stayed with him up till midnight when you
21 returned to your village. Could you tell us the next day, when did you
22 see Zaga and where?
23 A. Taking into account all that happened, we hardly got any sleep.
24 Perhaps between 5.00 and 6.00 a.m. I reached Podstijena with several other
25 people, and several elderly people came with horses, and there I found
1 Zaga and those people who had spent the night there with him.
2 Q. At the beginning of your testimony, you said that you were a land
3 surveyor which means that you can -- you are good with maps. If the Trial
4 Chamber allows, I would like to give you a map so that you can explain to
5 us what happened between the 23rd of July when you met Kunarac until the
6 26th of July in the evening when Kunarac left this locality.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the witness can be shown a map. If it's
8 already an exhibit, can we have the formal number; if not, can we have the
9 preliminaries done, please.
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We would like this to be tendered
11 into evidence.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: It is a map showing what? Just a formal description
13 for the record.
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a map which
15 shows the locality of the village of Jabuka, Foca, Ustikolina, the broader
16 area. It is a map similar to the one which the accused Kunarac used when
17 he was showing where he spent that period, and where he was moving.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the formal number, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: [No interpretation]
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Translation into English is not there.
21 THE INTERPRETER: I'm very sorry. This is the interpreter's
22 mistake with the microphone.
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This will be marked as Defence
24 Exhibit D140. I repeat, this map will be marked D140.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: I can't remember, did you want it admitted into
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?
4 MS. KUO: No objection.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Fine, it will be admitted into evidence. Is it
6 retaining the same formal number Madam Registrar, please?
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] So this is Defence Exhibit 140,
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, please proceed.
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can you tell us which group of villages is identified as Jabuka?
12 A. I told yesterday that Jabuka is a broader notion encompassing
13 about 30 villages, some of them Muslim, some of them Serb, some of them
14 mixed: Jamici, Donje Selo, and others. This part of Serbian villages
15 consisted of Kolakovici, Bozanovici, Slavcici, Prijekla [phoen], Podgrad,
16 Modro Polje, Racici, Tahuljici, Stojkovici, and Jamici.
17 Q. Could you tell us, is this a large area in terms of size?
18 A. Very large.
19 Q. What is the configuration of terrain?
20 A. It is a hilly, mountainous area with many hills and valleys
21 between them. Villages are located on the slopes of those hills which are
22 covered by forests up to the borders of villages.
23 Q. So on the 24th of July, you are still searching the terrain. Can
24 you show us on the map, where did you search?
25 A. On the 24th and the 23rd of July, we were moving around villages
1 Kolakovici, Bozanovici, Slavicici, Prijepolje, up to Podgrad.
2 Q. Did you tell us, how many corpses did you find on that day?
3 A. Well, I think it is 15 or 16.
4 Q. Did you bury those bodies?
5 A. Yes. We buried some of them in nearby cemeteries and some of them
6 were buried on the spot where they were killed.
7 Q. Do you remember an incident wherein one of the persons who was in
8 your group was wounded because he stepped on a mine?
9 A. Yes, I remember.
10 Q. Can you explain this?
11 A. While we were searching for corpses, we came across a young man
12 who had been killed, and one of our group knew him. And because he was
13 very upset, he was less careful and stepped on a mine.
14 Q. In what condition were the bodies, the dead bodies you found?
15 A. They were mutilated. Some of them were incinerated, such as those
16 of two elderly women we found in a house. And since three or four days
17 had elapsed, the bodies had decomposed to a large degree and there was a
18 very unpleasant smell.
19 Q. Can you tell us, where did you spend that night?
20 A. I said that we spent just the first night partly in Podstijena,
21 and all the other time we found -- we slept where the night found us.
22 Q. Can you remember, that particular night, which part of the
23 locality were you in?
24 A. Which night.
25 Q. The 24th?
1 A. We were in the area of Rosulje field.
2 Q. What happened on the next day, the 25th?
3 A. As I said yesterday, we spent all the four days searching for dead
4 bodies, and we continued looking for persons killed and missing. Since it
5 was a large area, one group couldn't manage, so we divided into two
7 Q. What part of the area did you search that day?
8 A. We continued in the direction of Stojkovici and Jamici. Those
9 were Serb villages just below Mount Jahorina and Krtcel [phoen].
10 Q. Was Zaga with you?
11 A. Yes. He was with us throughout the four days while we were
12 burying the dead.
13 Q. How many corpses did you find in that area?
14 A. In the four days, we found a total of 38 civilian victims, and
15 there was a total of 48 bodies.
16 Q. What was the condition of those bodies?
17 A. As time went by, day by day, the condition was worse and worse.
18 They had been mutilated. Some of them were semi-incinerated. They were a
19 very terrible sight, really.
20 Q. On that morning, when did you begin to start to search the
22 A. We began very early. It was summer, and it dawned as early as
23 5.00 a.m., and as soon as it dawned, we would start -- we would set off.
24 Q. How long did the search last?
25 A. Four days.
1 Q. I mean, how long during one day.
2 A. Yes, the entire day. We would just take a break for lunch and
3 then continue.
4 Q. You mentioned a lunch break. What did you have in terms of food?
5 A. Almost nothing. The people had fled. Some of them were killed.
6 There was no food. We could just get bread, and we had tinned food that
7 Mr. Kunarac had brought with him.
8 Q. You said that you searched the area until the night fell. Did
9 Zaga ask you for something on that day?
10 A. He did not ask for anything specific, but he warned us that
11 everybody that we find, we should not move it until he came because there
12 was a danger of mines and explosives, and he wanted to prevent the
13 accidents that happened in the past. He was the first one to come to
14 touch the body, each one of the bodies, and, fortunately, nothing
16 Q. Where did you spend that night?
17 A. In the area between the villages -- what day do you mean?
18 Q. The 25th.
19 A. In the area between the villages of Stojkovici and Tahuljici, in a
21 Q. Can you tell us what happened on the 26th of July in the morning?
22 A. It was the last day of our search. We got up early, and we headed
23 towards the village of Jamcici so to see there was the possibility to find
24 some bodies there because Jamici was the last village inhabited by Serbs.
25 We found some 10 bodies there between the villages of Stojkovici and
1 Jamici. We buried those bodies and then we returned, as the night fell,
2 towards Podrinje, where on the last day we found a body.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the name.
4 A. He was killed on the first day, and he was buried there when the
5 night fell. In fact, we buried him at night-time. It was already dark.
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you remember any other event that happened in the four days
8 which left an impression with you, which caused you some concern?
9 A. I remember all the details that happened on that day. I don't
10 know what would be relevant for me to say now, but --
11 Q. Did some people disappear?
12 A. Yes. On the first day when the village of Jabuka was attacked,
13 several young men disappeared. We didn't know what happened to them for
14 three days, and then they returned, and one of them had been wounded and
15 his wound had already been infected. I can also provide you the name of
16 that person.
17 Q. My last question: Do you have any knowledge of the location of
18 the refugees from Jabuka?
19 A. As I said yesterday, they were evacuated to the village of Previla
20 where a school building had been abandoned. And on the last day when this
21 group who was searching the area finally discovered who was dead and who
22 was alive, they were transported to Foca where they were located in the
23 sports centre in Foca -- in the school centre in Foca, where they
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no questions.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic.
5 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have questions for this
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
8 MS. LOPICIC: Thank you.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, cross-examination.
10 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:
12 Q. Mr. Mastilo, you're friends with Boban Kunarac, right?
13 A. No, I did not say I was friends with him. I said I knew Boban
14 Kunarac, who is the brother of Zaga.
15 Q. How do you know him?
16 A. Well, Foca is a small place. I worked in the land registry, and
17 he was employed in a construction company. Since these two activities are
18 related, we got in touch quite often.
19 Q. So you worked with him on occasion; isn't that right?
20 A. My company or my service, my office, provided services, land
21 surveying services to the company in which he was employed, so we were in
22 contact. I know the man, but I'm not his friend. I know him just as I
23 know many other people in the town with whom I was in touch through my
25 Q. You got along well with him. In other words, you didn't have any
1 problems with him, did you?
2 A. No. We dealt with each other to the extent to which he was
3 engaged in this kind of work. And my office is quite specific. I had to
4 provide certain services to his company, location of facilities and some
5 other support services and so on.
6 Q. You knew Boban Kunarac well enough to know that he had a brother
7 named Dragoljub Kunarac, didn't you? You knew that before you met the
8 accused Kunarac on July 23, 1992, didn't you? You knew already.
9 A. No. Only when I met Zaga did I learn, a little while later, that
10 he was Boban's brother. I did not have any idea whatsoever before that
11 that Boban had a brother.
12 Q. Mr. Mastilo, the first time that you were asked to recall the
13 incidents of July 1992 was in October of 1998, when the Defence approached
14 you; isn't that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you're claiming that from July 23rd to July 26th of 1992, the
17 accused Dragoljub Kunarac was with you every day, every moment, and every
18 night; isn't that right?
19 A. That's absolutely true.
20 Q. Now, according to you, when Mr. Kunarac arrived in Podstijena, he
21 didn't have a defined mission, did he?
22 A. No. I didn't notice that he was in any way superior to anyone.
23 It was a complete chaos, a lot of casualties. And if I wanted to learn
24 something, I didn't, in fact, think of those terms, and everything that he
25 said and did, did not indicate in any way that he was in a position of
1 authority or in a position of superior command.
2 Q. I'm sorry. You may have misunderstood my question. It was not
3 about his authority but about his mission, what he was supposed to be
4 doing there. He didn't have a defined task there, did he, when he
6 A. From what he did, I understood that he was there to help us to
7 find the dead bodies, to bury them. Now, whether he had any other tasks,
8 I don't know anything about that. I never asked.
9 Q. In your prior statements, when you were asked -- in your prior
10 statements, you stated that when Kunarac arrived, he had come to see what
11 had happened and what could be done to help, right?
12 A. Yes, precisely.
13 Q. So it wasn't that he was there with a specific task. He needed to
14 first find out in what way he could help, right?
15 A. Well, in contact with the people who had gathered in the
16 Podstijena area, he learned what happened. The attack happened at quarter
17 past five. This was around 9.00 or 10.00. So the people who had arrived
18 from the villages that had already been burned down, they presented --
19 they explained what the situation was. So we were all aware of what was
20 going on, except we didn't know whether the people that were missing were
21 hidden, hiding somewhere, or were dead or alive. But in the ensuing four
22 days, we found out who was dead and who was alive.
23 Q. It wasn't people from your village that asked Mr. Kunarac to come
24 and help, was it?
25 A. No. There was no physical contact. My village is about 30
1 kilometres away from Foca.
2 Q. You stated also that what Mr. Kunarac needed to do was to report
3 back to command about what he learned; isn't that right?
4 A. That was a presumption. If he arrived there, he would probably
5 have reported to somebody or told somebody the situation on the ground and
6 the number of casualties.
7 Q. During the four days that you were with Mr. Kunarac every moment,
8 did you ever see him report to headquarters or command?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you never saw him receive any communication by radio or other
11 means from command, did you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, during the time that we're talking about, the 23rd to the
14 26th of July, the area of Jabuka was already secured, wasn't it?
15 A. I did not understand your question.
16 Q. The area of Jabuka was already secured; in other words, the
17 Muslims, according to you, had attacked and retreated. Isn't that right?
18 A. In the four days while we were searching the area and burying the
19 dead, they constantly attacked, firing machine guns and some small calibre
20 mortars and anti-aircraft machine guns. I think it was a Browning. They
21 fired those weapons from an area that was within the range of those
23 Q. But they did not launch another offensive into those villages, did
24 they, during those days?
25 A. Not in those days. There wasn't an offensive launched at that
1 time, but they were attacking all the time. We were constantly under
2 pressure, so in the night and in the early morning we had to bury those
3 dead people, which is not in accordance with our customs.
4 Q. There wasn't a Serb offensive planned in that area, was there?
5 A. No, there wasn't. And I'm not familiar with the plans of the
7 Q. Are you familiar with what reconnaissance work entails?
8 A. Not in particular. I know about this activity, but in my national
9 service and during the war, I grasped the basic concept of what scouts are
10 supposed to do, what reconnaissance is all about. That's reconnoitring
11 the terrain and reconnoitring the movements of the enemy, reconnoitring
12 the possibility of minefield laying and things like that. Gathering data
13 about the enemy, in general.
14 Q. The work that you and Mr. Kunarac were engaged in those four days
15 was not reconnaissance work, was it?
16 A. Well, this was more of a humanitarian mission, but I think that in
17 everything that he did, he was also able to follow the situation, to
18 monitor the situation in the field and to take note of all the
19 provocations and locations from which fire was opened, and all of us who
20 were there, in fact, were able to observe that.
21 Q. You mentioned a particular incident where a person in your party
22 was injured by an explosive. That was on the 24th. Could you tell us
23 what time of day that was, please?
24 A. Yes. Well, it was in the morning. I cannot specify the time, but
25 it was in the morning.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And on the 23rd you had already been working all day, from morning
2 till night, with Mr. Kunarac, digging up dead bodies, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, the first night, the 23rd of July, you stated earlier that
5 Mr. Kunarac did not stay with you in your parents' house; isn't that
7 A. No, he slept in the village of Podstijena because since the
8 population of the villages that had been burnt out were located in those
9 villages which had not been burned down, it was impossible for all of us
10 to sleep in the same village. We were allocated to those houses, and he
11 with several few other -- several other lads slept in the village of
13 Q. So during the time when he was staying somewhere else, you didn't
14 see him, right?
15 A. Well, look, it was summertime, and it was daylight until 10.00
16 p.m. You could see normally, and when you return from the field to the
17 village of Podstijena around 11.00 --
18 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter apologises, it is impossible
19 to interpret at this speed.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, will you please speak slowly, again, for
21 the interpreters. They have to pick every word. Speak slowly, please.
22 A. I will try, but I cannot speak in any other way.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you repeat your answer slowly.
24 A. I will try to speak slowly, but it's my nature.
25 MS. KUO:
1 Q. Perhaps I can repeat the question. During the time that night
2 between the 23rd and 24th of July, Mr. Kunarac was not in your sight the
3 whole time, was he?
4 A. We did not sleep in the same bed, but he was nearby. He remained
5 in the village of Podstijena after 12.00, and we saw each other in the
6 morning around 6.00 a.m.
7 Q. So between midnight and 6.00 a.m. you don't know where, you can't
8 say for sure, where Mr. Kunarac was, can you?
9 A. Well, I cannot state that I saw him in that intervening period,
10 but people who were there, people didn't sleep really well. Since some
11 people had been killed from those villages, including a very young man,
12 they couldn't sleep. You could see that they had not got enough sleep.
13 Everybody knew that he was there, that nobody went anywhere from there.
14 It was night, and there was danger of further attacks, of further
15 incidents since this was the first night after the attack, and it was
16 possible that the Muslims could launch another offensive and attack the
17 remaining two or three villages and burn them down.
18 Q. Mr. Mastilo, isn't it true that Kunarac was not even in the same
19 village as you that night? That's a fact, isn't it?
20 A. Well, in fact, it's a hamlet which is part of my village. It's
21 about 500 metres away from my house.
22 Q. When you were searching for bodies, how many people were
24 A. Well, the number changed from the first day to the last. If we
25 found someone who had been killed, logically his father or brother were
1 unable to continue working on this task. They went home, or the elderly
2 people were moved to Foca on some other tasks. Then some relatives would
3 come from time to time from Foca to search for a relative of theirs. The
4 group was not large, but the number changed by one or two people. I
5 cannot be more specific than that.
6 Q. You stated that the area you were searching was quite broad.
7 Could you tell us how far, how many kilometres we're talking about?
8 A. I think that it was approximately -- it was the area from the
9 village of Jamici to Podstijena about 15 kilometres or so; that's the
10 length. And the width is varying, depending on -- because in some areas
11 there were Muslim villages. So the length is about 15 kilometres. It is
12 a hilly area with a lot of small dales, and it was very hard to move there
13 quickly. We had to search every creek, every streambed, every wood where
14 we supposed that somebody might have hidden or could have been killed.
15 Q. You knew that a lot of people were missing, right? You were
16 searching for many, many bodies; isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You also knew that the weather was warm, and the bodies might
19 begin to decompose if you didn't move quickly, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You didn't all go in one group, right? You split up into small
22 groups to cover more terrain, didn't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And Kunarac didn't stay by your side the whole time, did he?
25 A. I was in the group where Kunarac was. Since no one was wounded or
1 killed from my immediate family, I thought that I was the most composed of
2 all the people from this area. I thought that I could explain the
3 terrain, I could explain where the villages were, where the people could
4 be hiding. I simply was not under the kind of psychological pressure that
5 would make it impossible for me to have normal judgement.
6 Q. You did not know anything about mines, did you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You stated earlier that before any body could be moved,
9 Mr. Kunarac would have to check it; isn't that right?
10 A. Yes. He did warn us about these mines and explosives, not only
11 myself, but everybody else. He said that it was possible to have these
12 mines and explosive devices left, and then when the dead were being moved,
13 there could be an explosion and even more casualties.
14 Q. So he would have to check bodies that other groups found, not just
15 yours, isn't that right, according to what you're saying?
16 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
17 Q. So there were times when he went to check what other groups were
18 doing, and you were not there by his side, were you?
19 A. I was with him. The men who found those corpses only marked the
20 places where they were, and then we went to tour all of that. The terrain
21 is such that one can see from one hill to another where things are. So
22 the villages are all close to one another, so one can quickly move from
23 one locality to another. When people would find a corpse, they would
24 leave it there, they would mark the place where it was, and then it would
25 be checked out further to see whether there were any mines or explosive
1 devices, too.
2 Q. So Mr. Kunarac was never, ever out of your eyesight; is that what
3 you're saying?
4 A. No, except for the first night when he spent the night in
5 Podstijena and I slept in Kolakovici, which is about 500 metres away. All
6 the rest of the time, I was with him.
7 Q. And he never left your side, right?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Just my last question: The area that you're describing is between
10 the areas of responsibility of the 2nd and 3rd Battalions, right, not in
11 the area of the 5th Battalion?
12 A. No, no. This is the area that was within the zone of
13 responsibility of the 2nd Battalion as far as I knew and according to the
14 information that I was able to receive. I think it was the area of
15 responsibility of the 2nd Battalion.
16 I was a rank and file soldier. I worked on this road more than
17 soldiering in any other way, and I was not really that familiar with this
18 organisation and chain of command and things like that.
19 MS. KUO: No further questions.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, there was a question and answer that I think
21 you better clear up. You had asked the witness whether Mr. Kunarac was
22 never ever out of his eyesight, and he gave the explanation that he wasn't
23 within the first evening, and then you said this:
24 "Question: And he never left your side, right?
25 Answer: No."
1 Now, I think he meant that he was agreeing with you, but it does
2 look a little strange on the transcript and later on it may not be very
3 clear to us.
4 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps I can ask the witness
6 Q. During the four days that you've described, except the evening
7 between the 23rd and the 24th, you're saying that Mr. Kunarac never left
8 your side, yes or no? Did he leave your side?
9 A. Yes. He was with me all the time.
10 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examined?
12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one additional question,
13 with your permission, Your Honour.
14 Re-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
15 Q. In those villages where the Serbs fled from, are there any Serbs
16 living there now?
17 A. No. Those villages don't even exist. Everything was burned down
18 and destroyed.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I have no questions, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic.
22 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, we do not have any questions.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Witness, for giving evidence to the
24 Tribunal. You are now free. You may leave the witness box.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I will ask the Defence: Any other witnesses?
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. This is the
3 last witness that was supposed to appear. We do apologise for this time
4 that is left. However, with your permission, may I say that we brought
5 cassettes here. Since Prosecution witnesses said that at the SDS rally it
6 was said that blood was running in the Drina and that they were enemies,
7 et cetera, so we brought the speech of Radovan Karadzic and the speech of
8 Mr. Kornjaca, and that certainly would have lasted a few hours. That is
9 how everything came to be shorter.
10 We, of course, took the advice of the Trial Chamber and we reduced
11 the number of our questions. However, had that not happened, we certainly
12 would have kept us all busy during this envisaged time.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much for the explanation. Can we go
14 through the list of witnesses and see who are the next witnesses?
15 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, you might be able to assist us about these
16 tapes. I must say I had always been under the impression that you were
17 objecting to them, but if you are pursuing this political issue, it may
18 be, if there's going to be some issue as to what was said at these
19 rallies, we'll have to watch them, won't we?
20 I'm still not -- I still don't quite understand the basis upon
21 which it is said to be relevant, but that's another matter. You certainly
22 do seem or the Prosecution do seem to be pursuing this political issue.
23 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution witnesses have
24 testified very briefly about what they heard at the rally, and if the
25 Defence has evidence to show that that was incorrect, we wouldn't -- I
1 think they have the right to, of course, put in evidence to refute that.
2 We have not seen the full tape of the full speeches nor do we have
3 a transcript, so we're not able to say exactly what's in those proposed
5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Prodanovic, we're not going to sit here and
6 just listen to them on the basis there may be something in them. Is there
7 something in them which contradicts the evidence which has been given so
9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the speech of
10 Radovan Karadzic, it says literally that, "We have no greater friends than
11 the Muslims. We have to live in brotherhood as we have lived." It's such
12 a peace-loving speech.
13 We had the intention of playing his speech from the beginning to
14 the end. We didn't want to show only excerpts. On the basis of his
15 speech, one may conclude whether any threats were issued to the Muslims
16 that blood would run in the Drina, et cetera, et cetera, and also the
17 speech of Mr. Kornjaca. The witness was DC, I think, and we wanted to
18 show these cassettes during his testimony because he partly attended both
19 meetings. However, the previous day, you said something to the effect
20 that you were not interested in the SDS and the SDA and cassettes and
21 things like that. So we accepted your suggestion, and we did not bring
22 these cassettes, although we have them. There's no problem whatsoever.
23 We haven't brought them in today because we didn't know we would
24 engage in this sort of dialogue. But this would certainly require some
25 time, so I believe that there would be plenty of material both for today
1 and for tomorrow.
2 JUDGE HUNT: But before we sit and listen to them or watch them,
3 we've got to know what issue they go to. Now, you say that this was a
4 peace-loving speech that was given. You say that's relevant, do you, to
5 whether there were threats at some other time issued?
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness FWS-33 said explicitly
7 that at the SDS rally that was held, threats were issued to the Muslim
8 people. Our assessment is that Karadzic's speech and Kornjaca's speech
9 are relevant in terms of viewing the entire situation.
10 JUDGE HUNT: But that sort of thing, if I may say so, does not
11 assist me, at least, to understand what the issue is. Are you saying that
12 these are complete records of what was said at the meeting so that if we
13 saw them we would see that there was no threat issued, or are you saying
14 that because it was such a peace-loving speech that there could not have
15 been any threats issued, as the Prosecution witness said? Which is it?
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We are saying -- we maintain that
17 at that rally, not a single threat was uttered.
18 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. Please, I think I'm entitled to an answer to
19 my question. Are you saying they are a complete record of the rally?
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We do not have a complete record,
21 Your Honour, but we have the keynote speakers.
22 JUDGE HUNT: So what you're saying then is this: that because they
23 were so peace-loving in their nature, we should disbelieve the Prosecution
24 witnesses when it was said that threats were issued again the Muslims.
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witnesses only
1 said that two speakers issued threats to the Muslims, Radovan Karadzic and
2 Dusko Kornjaca. As regards other speakers, they did not name other
3 speakers, but we do have the speeches of other speakers too.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have the complete speeches by those two men,
5 Karadzic and Kornjaca?
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, I'm trying to work out a way around this so
9 that we don't have to sit here and watch a long tape. If the Defence gave
10 you the tapes and you had them with the translator, you would be able to
11 either agree or disagree as to whether or not what the witness said was
13 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, we could do that.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Prodanovic, that might be the way around
15 it. You give the tapes to the Prosecution, and they can watch them with a
16 translator, and they can be either an agreement or disagreement as to
17 whether what the witness said was true. It would save us a very long
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have handed over
20 all our tapes to the Prosecution. So the OTP has this tape as well. Of
21 course, we can view it together too.
22 JUDGE HUNT: I don't mind whether you view it separately or
23 together. What we want is an agreement as to whether or not they contain
24 the words which the witness said. If they don't contain the words which
25 the witness said and it is agreed that it's a complete copy of the whole
1 speech, then that will save us a lot of time. I mean, we've got lots of
2 work we can do in the meantime out of court on this matter.
3 So can you get together with the Prosecution and sort it out
4 between you?
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We have
6 already handed over the tapes, and we can agree with them. We can hand
7 them over again, these tapes.
8 JUDGE HUNT: But may I suggest, just at the end of this
9 discussion, that when we ask you what the relevance is, you could go to
10 the point. All you've said to us before is that it was relevant to the
11 general allegations in the indictment and that doesn't point out to us
12 anything. I must confess, I was labouring under a slight misapprehension
13 as to the Prosecutor's attitude towards them. I still don't understand
14 the relevance of it, but, nevertheless, there seems to be no objection by
15 the Prosecution. So it is an issue that we will have to determine; were
16 threats made?
17 Now, if you do that and spend the time tomorrow doing that, we
18 will be saved some time, and we can get on in the preparation of the case
19 that we've already heard so that we've got it down in a nice fine form for
20 use later.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Kuo, I just wanted one correction. The
22 Prosecution maintains that they were never given these tapes, because
23 Mr. Prodanovic does insist that the Prosecution were given these tapes.
24 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we were given a number of materials, and I
25 think we just need to be pointed out which ones they're talking about. So
1 we don't -- I mean, we have quite a few tapes, and I'm not sure exactly
2 which ones he's referring to. We can work that out. That's not a
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I would like the Prosecution to be precise
5 when they say they weren't given anything. Please do check the materials
6 you are handed by the Defence or the time and identify the materials, so
7 that when the Defence stand up in Court to say whether or not they handed
8 you anything, you are clear, because you are supposed to be talking to
9 them. If they give you materials, find out what the material's about.
10 It's your case. You are the people who have to prove out beyond
11 reasonable doubt.
12 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I was simply confused about which
13 particular tapes Mr. Prodanovic was talking about today in court, but I
14 will be more precise in the future.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. So the parties should discuss, watch
16 the tapes together, so that the Defence counsels are there to explain what
17 they think is relevant and you point out at your case so you can take a
18 stand, whether you would object to them or not. And if you do, you give
19 reasons. Because we would like the parties to act together on this.
20 You may differ. The Defence have a right to insist. If they
21 still feel that this is relevant, it's up to them to convince the Trial
22 Chamber. It's up to you, the Prosecution, to convince the Trial Chamber
23 otherwise, or if you're both agreed. So we would like to save time,
24 instead of arguing, looking at the tapes in Court and things like that,
25 like Judge Hunt has already said.
1 So since we don't have witnesses for the rest of today and
2 tomorrow, please deal with that and any other matters that may come out
3 during the Defence case, please, so that next time we don't have a hitch.
4 On Monday we'll proceed with witnesses. I take it that we are
5 following the same list that was filed on the 21st of June. I'd like
6 confirmation from the Defence.
7 Mr. Prodanovic, is that correct? This is Annex A of your filing
8 under Rule 65 ter (G)(i)(ii), where we had Kunarac as number 1, Radinovic
9 as number 2, and 3, 4, and 5 the medical experts whose time ran out
10 because we couldn't finish the other one, and we have agreed tentatively
11 that they may come in September, subject to your intentions, as the
12 Defence, whether you still feel you would like to call them. You can fix
13 the dates.
14 I would just like to say if you do call them, please try to fix
15 them as from a Monday so that we have the three of them during one week.
16 That way we can have that chunk of evidence together in the record,
18 We have heard number 6. Are you following the list? Radovic,
19 have we, please? Let's all be agreed on who is yet to come. We have
20 heard number 6, 7 and 8, 9 and 10; is that correct?
21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Up to 11.
23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, up to 11
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Apart from the three medical experts. We'll
1 forget about them for the time being. So we'll start following the list
2 as from number 12.
3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: After the end of the list. So we are expecting how
5 many witnesses next week, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, up to what number?
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We are expecting eight witnesses,
7 through 19, 19 inclusive. That is what has been announced to us so far,
8 that eight witnesses should be coming in.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Next week. Okay. Because we are not sitting on
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: So for Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday we have
13 these -- from number 12 up to 19 inclusive. We hope that we will run
14 through them and complete them and, thereafter, we'll go on, because next
15 week, as you know, will be the last sitting before the break. So we will
16 try to run through these witnesses. Okay.
17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We hope so. We shall do our
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
20 The Prosecution?
21 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I just wanted to clarify something. The
22 Prosecution is in receipt of a letter from the Defence dated July 3rd, in
23 which the witnesses for next week -- the proposed witnesses were listed.
24 There are eight witnesses, but their names are slightly different from the
25 ones that are listed on the exhibit that Your Honour was referring to.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: The names are different from 12 to 19.
2 MS. KUO: Yes, that's correct.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry. The names are different from 12 to 19,
5 MS. KUO: So I wanted to know from the Defence whether they were
6 intending to call the people listed on their July 3rd letter or in their
7 Annex A because, for instance, number 18, Aleksandar Krnojelac, is not
8 listed on the July 3rd letter.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Is that the only witness not listed, number 18?
10 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. That's the one that's missing, but in
11 his place there is a witness named Djurovic Radosav.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Of course, the Defence are entitled to change
13 witnesses if they so wish, but it is important to notify the Prosecution
14 and the Trial Chamber because of the fact that we have to follow what type
15 of evidence they are giving, and we are ready with the witnesses -- we are
16 ready for the witnesses. So can we have a clearance?
17 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, Your Honours. If I may, I'd like to clarify.
18 We sent on the 3rd of July information, from the 24th to the 27th of July
19 we will have eight witnesses. Number 12 on the list of annex A, which was
20 filed pursuant to Rule 65 ter, number 12 we will call, number 13, number
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
23 MS. LOPICIC: Number 4 on the list of the 3rd of July is number 36
24 on the supplemental annex A.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: So what's the name you are substituting for --
1 MS. LOPICIC: We are not substituting anything, but we added up
2 Djurovic Radosav as number 4. Then we have from the 24th to the 27th of
3 July (redacted), which is number 15 on the Defence list, annex A.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
5 MS. LOPICIC: Then 16 is okay, 17. Number 18 is not coming
6 because it's the witness who will go through videolink conference. And
7 number 19, she will come, and she's the eighth on the list dated 3rd July
8 2000, the letter that we sent to the Trial Chamber, as well to the
10 JUDGE MUMBA: So the two witnesses who are not on the annex A are
11 the only ones?
12 MS. LOPICIC: One witness who is not on the annex A, but they were
13 submitted later as a supplement to annex A.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.
15 MS. LOPICIC: And we have -- that witness has the number 36.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, so the list that you submitted recently as the
17 witnesses for next week is intact?
18 MS. LOPICIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Is what we shall follow?
20 MS. LOPICIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
22 MS. LOPICIC: I just wanted to inform the Trial Chamber as well as
23 the Prosecutor that maybe Djurovic Radosav as well as Mirko Przulj will
24 not come on Monday but on Tuesday due to the problem that we received
25 their passports this week.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. The sequence may be different.
2 MS. LOPICIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: But the group will remain the same.
4 MS. LOPICIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Any other matters, Mr. Prodanovic?
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other matters for the Prosecution?
8 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: So on Monday we'll have the address submissions on
10 whether -- what position each party is taking on the tapes. We'll decide,
11 and proceed with the witnesses. As much as possible, let's use the trial
12 time for receiving evidence. Thank you.
13 We'll adjourn our proceedings until Monday, 0930 hours.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.48 a.m. to
15 be reconvened on Monday the 24th day of July, 2000,
16 at 09.30 a.m.