Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5169

1 Monday, 24 July, 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. The case number is

7 IT-96-23-T and IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Kunarac, Kovac,

8 Vukovic.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I understand we have two witnesses today. May we

10 please proceed with witnesses and then we'll deal with our domestic

11 problems later. Can we have the first witness, please. Any protective

12 measures?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning. The

14 Defence of the accused Kunarac has envisaged two witnesses for today.

15 Both witnesses require protective measures, and the Defence of the accused

16 Kunarac suggests that protective measures for the first witness, who will

17 be here today to testify, be accepted in the sense that he be given facial

18 and voice distortion and that he should be given a pseudonym.

19 He works in the army of Republika Srpska, and in view of all the

20 turmoil in that territory, his travel across the Federation could involve

21 some complications. So we would ask for facial and voice distortion and a

22 pseudonym.

23 We have the same proposal for the second witness who will be heard

24 today, considering that that other witness has a private company and

25 trades on the entire territory of the Federation, especially Sarajevo.

Page 5170

1 So, we would ask again for pseudonyms for these two witnesses and

2 facial and voice distortion.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: May we hear from the Prosecution for those

4 protective measures for the two witnesses.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objections, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then. The protective measures are

7 granted as pled for both witnesses.

8 What pseudonym do you propose for the first one?

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The first witness, we would

10 suggest DD as the pseudonym.


12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: And the second one?

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And DE for the second witness,

15 Delta Echo.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Can we have the necessary arrangements

17 for the first witness to come in, please.

18 The Trial Chamber is informed that because of voice distortion,

19 which has just been mentioned and granted, the technicians will need about

20 15 minutes to make arrangements with the microphones.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order not to waste

22 precious time, the Defence proposes that we just have facial distortion

23 and a pseudonym. So perhaps we should not tax -- maybe there was a

24 misunderstanding. I'm asking only for facial distortion and pseudonym.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you. So we will have facial distortion

Page 5171

1 and pseudonym, and the first witness will be referred to as DD.

2 Can we have the first witness, please?

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make the solemn

5 declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: Good morning. I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Sit down, please.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

12 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

13 Q. Good morning, Witness.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. Before I start asking you questions, I would like to ask you to

16 sit a little closer to the microphone, and when I'm asking questions,

17 please listen carefully to the translation and then start giving answers

18 slowly.

19 I would like to notify you that this Chamber has accepted the

20 Defence's proposal for protective measures for you. So that today, in the

21 course of your testimony, we will be addressing you under the initials

22 DD.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

24 give the witness a sheet of paper.

25 A. It's all right.

Page 5172

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So on that sheet of paper, we have your first and last name, your

3 date of birth, and place of birth.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the exhibit number from the registry,

5 please, for this document?

6 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D141.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed, counsel. It's under

8 seal.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Registrar, it's under seal. Let's proceed.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. We received today your details, personal details. What is your

13 profession?

14 A. I'm a metalworker.

15 Q. Did you work as a metalworker?

16 A. Not before the war.

17 Q. Until 1992, did you live in Foca or somewhere else?

18 A. Until 1991, I lived in Foca, and then I lived for a year in

19 France.

20 Q. And where have you lived since 1991?

21 A. In France. I arrived in early January, 1991 and then I've lived

22 there since.

23 Q. Where have you lived since?

24 A. I lived in Foca and continued to live there.

25 Q. Did you live all the time there?

Page 5173

1 A. The war found me in Sarajevo. I was visiting my relatives.

2 Q. How long did you spend in Sarajevo?

3 A. About a month. Since the outbreak of military operations in

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina, I returned to Foca in early May.

5 Q. Did you do something in Sarajevo?

6 A. I joined the JNA.

7 Q. Can you tell us, what was the national composition, the ethnic

8 composition of that unit?

9 A. When I joined up, it was mixed. My superior was, for instance, a

10 Muslim.

11 Q. When did you come back to Foca?

12 A. I returned in early May 1992.

13 Q. When you were coming from Sarajevo to Foca, how did you travel?

14 Because you said that the war was already underway in the territory of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 A. I reported to the Commander, and he allowed me to visit my

17 relatives in Foca, and I took the old road across Trnovo towards Foca. I

18 couldn't take this road all the way because we were told that it was mined

19 in certain sections.

20 Q. So you came to Foca in 1992, in May.

21 A. Yes, in early May.

22 Q. When you came to Foca, where did you live? Where did you stay?

23 A. With my parents. In fact, my mother.

24 Q. What was the situation then in Foca in terms of live circumstances

25 and relations between Muslims and Serbs?

Page 5174

1 A. When I came back, well, it was a difficult situation. The Serbs

2 held the centre of the town, and Muslims were on the surrounding hills.

3 Practically, you couldn't get out of Foca without coming across an ambush

4 or a mine, so I decided to stay in Foca.

5 Q. You said you decided to stay in Foca. Did you become active, join

6 some service in order to help out as a soldier?

7 A. I reported to the Ministry of Defence, which is located in the

8 police station in the centre of the town, and they sent me to Velecevo, to

9 the Command of the Territorial Defence. Up there I reported, and they

10 sent me to be issued with weapons and equipment, because I had already

11 returned the equipment in Sarajevo.

12 Q. Where did you go to get weapons?

13 A. To a storage house in Livade. It was part of the city. There

14 were some huts and a trading enterprise, and I was issued with an old

15 uniform, olive-grey uniform of the Territorial Defence. In that warehouse

16 I was issued with a semi-automatic rifle.

17 Q. After that, did you get some assignment?

18 A. Yes. I got an assignment after being issued with equipment and

19 weapons. I was assigned as a sentry in Velecevo. I became a member of

20 the security. It was the gate on Velecevo.

21 Q. On that day when you were issued with weapons and a olive-grey

22 uniform of the Territorial Defence of Foca, were there any other persons

23 who were there with you?

24 A. There were other people who were issued with the same.

25 Q. Were there enough uniforms for everyone?

Page 5175

1 A. No, not enough. Most people were in civilian clothes with perhaps

2 soldier's boots and some wore sneakers. Some people had semi-automatic

3 rifles, but most of them were issued to the reserve militia, to which I

4 belonged before the war, but in 1991, when I was in France, I had returned

5 them.

6 Q. So far as I understand you, the Territorial Defence had the

7 uniforms and those M-48 rifles.

8 A. Yes. Those were old rifles.

9 Q. And the reserve militia, what did they have?

10 A. Until 1991, when I went to France, they had automatic rifles.

11 Q. You said you were assigned as a sentry in the security of the

12 Command in Velecevo?

13 A. Yes, the reception desk.

14 Q. Does that mean from the moment when you were assigned, you stood

15 guard on that post?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was that the only gate, the only entrance to the Velecevo complex

18 where you stood guard, or were there several of them?

19 A. It was the only entrance surrounded by a fence, two or three

20 metres high. That was the only entrance, both for pedestrians and for

21 vehicles.

22 Q. If I understood you correctly, one could not enter that complex

23 where you stood guard except through the entrance where you stood guard.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you stand guard permanently?

Page 5176

1 A. Yes. I was there all the time. That was where I was assigned.

2 Q. Could you tell us how many people were engaged in the security of

3 that post?

4 A. I can't tell you exactly. Perhaps 20, 30 at the outside. At one

5 time, there were three of us there. One of them opened the gates for

6 vehicles, one of them checked pedestrians, and the third one dealt with

7 administration.

8 Q. Since you got that assignment in security of that complex in

9 Velecevo, would you please tell us what that Velecevo complex represented

10 before the war?

11 A. It was a correctional house for women.

12 Q. How far was it from Velecevo.

13 A. Three or four kilometres.

14 Q. When you arrived to that post, was there a commander there, some

15 military unit?

16 A. Yes, it was the Tactical Group. Territorial Defence, TO.

17 Somebody called it the Technical Group, somebody called it TO.

18 Q. Was that a military unit in the process of being established?

19 A. Well, it was all being done on a voluntary basis. It didn't

20 function exactly as a military unit.

21 Q. Besides that technical group within that complex, was there any

22 other unit or was there any other unit established?

23 A. Somewhere in late August, the military police was formed, and I

24 joined up with them because I served in the army as a military policeman,

25 and it seemed natural for me to transfer to the military police.

Page 5177

1 I was not prosecuted before that. I had no criminal record, and

2 that was one of the requirements for a policeman.

3 Q. How many working hours did you spend on that post?

4 A. Well, I was supposed to take one to three hours rest, but that

5 wasn't very strictly observed. Sometimes I would stand guard for four or

6 five hours. It wasn't a difficult job. I was staying there any way. The

7 regulations said that I was supposed to stand guard for one hour and take

8 a three-hour rest.

9 Q. Did you spend all that time on that post?

10 A. Well, except when I took leave to go home. That happened perhaps

11 a couple of times a month.

12 Q. How many days?

13 A. One or two days. We usually took the opportunity to have a bath.

14 We didn't have bathing facilities, they were decrepit, in the complex.

15 Q. Do you know Dragoljub Kunarac?

16 A. Yes, he used to live close by.

17 Q. How close by?

18 A. As the crow flies, 150 metres, 100, 150.

19 Q. In Foca, did you see him? You said you did, but did you keep

20 company?

21 A. No, not really because he belonged to the older generation. Then

22 he was also in Montenegro for some time. So I couldn't really see him

23 very often.

24 Q. You said you came to Foca in May 1992 and you got the assignment

25 to stand guard at the Command in the Velecevo complex. Can you tell us

Page 5178

1 about the first time when you saw Kunarac and did you see him at all when

2 you came to Foca?

3 A. I didn't see him in May. I saw him, I think at the time when the

4 brigade was formed, was established, on the 28th of June, on Vidovdan. It

5 was a holiday and people were celebrating, and that's where I saw him. In

6 the end June, the 28th of the June.

7 Q. How was Kunarac dressed?

8 A. I think he was in a camouflage uniform, but I'm not certain.

9 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to his wartime assignment? You, for

10 instance, stood guard. Do you know what he did?

11 A. Well, they said he was a scout. He was one of the few who had

12 engineering training. He used to remove mines.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether he accepted such assignments?

14 Did he do reconnoitring?

15 A. Yes. He came very often on reconnaissance missions, perhaps once

16 in every two or three days. He brought the layout of enemy forces. He

17 went ahead of those columns which brought food, and he was

18 investigating -- he was exploring for mines. He was reconnoitring.

19 Q. You told me you saw him in June in that complex where you stood

20 guard. Can you tell us, when after that you saw Dragoljub Kunarac again?

21 A. I saw him in end July, perhaps, seven to eight days before

22 Ilindan, Ilius' Day, before the JNA hall. There was music, and I was

23 coming from home and I went straight to the hall where I was supposed to

24 take a bus or something.

25 Q. Did you talk to Kunarac?

Page 5179

1 A. No, I didn't talk to him. He was standing with a group of

2 people. They were talking. I didn't approach them. At that time, the

3 bus for Velecevo, a mini-van came, and I just went off. When we arrived

4 at the destination, we learnt about the cause for alert. There was a fire

5 and casualties were mentioned, 50 to 60 civilian casualties. The Muslims

6 had attacked and then withdrawn, and the people had fled before the JNA.

7 Q. You said you arrived before the JNA hall and you saw Kunarac

8 standing with five or six people. Out of that group, did you recognise

9 anyone else except Kunarac?

10 A. I recognised the young man. His nickname was Jure, I don't know

11 his name. But there was another man, Aco.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, the answers and questions are

13 following in a very quick succession.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, do pause and slow down. The interpreters

15 are saying that the questions and answers are following in quick

16 succession, please.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. So you saw Kunarac in late July.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After that, when did you see Kunarac again?

21 A. I saw him on the 2nd of August, during the battle of Rogoj. That

22 was Saint Ilius' day.

23 Q. Can you see when it was that you saw him on 2 August?

24 A. It was at night, maybe 9.30, 10.00, but it was dark. And that was

25 during summertime, so it could have been around 10.00.

Page 5180

1 Q. Could you explain where you saw him?

2 A. At that time, I was on guard duty. There was a column of vehicles

3 and there was a Dais truck at the head of the column and an anti-aircraft

4 gun was mounted on it and Dragoljub Kunarac, Zaga, was there manning that

5 gun, and there were another five or six soldiers and an additional three

6 or four civilian vehicles were always there. I think that one of them was

7 a van.

8 Q. Excuse me. If you can just keep it slow.

9 A. Before that, we had learned that Rogoj had been taken, through the

10 radio communication. We had a radio transmitter.

11 Q. You said that a truck came in. Did you see, who was the driver of

12 the truck?

13 A. One of the soldiers. Zaga was on the truck, at the gun. There

14 was a celebration, and he fired two or three bullets, two or three rounds

15 from that truck, and then they entered the compound.

16 Q. You say you they entered the compound. Is there a place where you

17 could park vehicles in that compound?

18 A. Yes. That was in front of the entrance to the command building.

19 That's where they parked the vehicle, and they entered the building to

20 celebrate. I remained behind on guard duty. I didn't go in.

21 Q. Could you tell us how many people were inside the compound at the

22 time and whether they all entered to join the celebration?

23 A. Yes, all of them except for the guards. Several of us who were on

24 guard duty stayed at their posts, and I don't know how many people

25 entered, 10, 15. In fact, about 10 to 15 people came in the column of

Page 5181

1 vehicles, and then the additional people who were there at the command

2 building joined them.

3 Q. But you didn't go into the room to celebrate with them, you stayed

4 at your guard post.

5 A. Yes. It was still my -- I was still on duty. I didn't go in.

6 Q. During your guard duty and after the soldiers had entered the room

7 to celebrate, including Kunarac, as you pointed out, did you see him later

8 that evening?

9 A. I was still on my guard duty. Perhaps an hour, an hour and a half

10 later, he left in the direction of Foca, and that was about an hour, hour

11 and a half later. So that would have been around 11.00, 11.30.

12 Q. Did you see how he left and how he passed?

13 A. Yes. He went with another soldier, Vlado Nivo [sic]. I didn't

14 know -- I actually -- I didn't know that soldier. But he perhaps

15 hitchhiked, that is what soldiers sometimes did to get a lift down to the

16 town.

17 Q. Was there any other way for anyone to leave the compound except

18 through that gate?

19 A. No. It was only there. Everything else was fenced in. That was

20 a fence two and a half to three metres high. You couldn't get through

21 anywhere else.

22 Q. Do you know where Zaga went?

23 A. He left in the direction of Foca. I don't know where.

24 Q. What happened after he left the compound? You said he left in the

25 direction of Foca.

Page 5182

1 A. A little while later, five to ten minutes later, there was a large

2 explosion which shook the barracks. That is how powerful the detonation

3 was.

4 Q. Did you learn what had happened?

5 A. We learned, after Zaga had come back, that was about half an hour

6 later -- in fact, maybe ten minutes -- he quickly came back up in a

7 vehicle, asked us where the Commander was, was he down there, and we at

8 the gate told him yes, and he -- I asked what happened, and he said, "Some

9 idiot blew up the mosque." I think that there was not a single window

10 pane that was left intact, and there were a lot of roof tiles that were

11 destroyed in a wide area around the mosque.

12 Q. Did you see in what vehicle he came back?

13 A. That was the same vehicle. It was a Lada vehicle. I believe he

14 came back alone.

15 Q. Did Zaga park that vehicle when he entered the compound? Can you

16 describe --

17 A. He first came to the reception booth. We first asked him what had

18 happened. Then he passed the booth and parked the vehicle by the command

19 post. This is where we also slept.

20 Q. That evening, did you see Kunarac in another situation?

21 A. Yes. I saw him when I went to go to sleep. It was around 12.00.

22 That is where I saw him, in the building. He passed me.

23 Q. You said -- did you say he entered the dorm? Could he have

24 entered by another entrance?

25 A. No. That is the entrance to where the dorms were, and also there

Page 5183

1 was a kitchen there and a gym, but it was the only entrance that we used.

2 There was a basement, and that is where the kitchen was and the dorms and

3 the gym.

4 Q. Did you have -- did you all sleep in the same room or were they

5 separate?

6 A. No, there were small rooms, two bunkbeds and four cots. There

7 were a number of such rooms. We didn't sleep all together. There were

8 enough rooms, so one or two persons shared the room.

9 Q. And when you entered or exited that building, you all used the

10 same entrance?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You said that you went to go to sleep at the same time. Did you

13 see him in the morning?

14 A. Yes. I saw him around 7.00, that is, around breakfast time. That

15 is when the breakfast is served, unless somebody needed to get up earlier

16 to go on a reconnaissance mission or something, and then they would be

17 issued food previously.

18 Q. Do you know whether Kunarac had spoken to the Commander?

19 A. I don't know. I suppose he did because the Commander was there.

20 I don't see why he wouldn't have talked to him.

21 Q. When did you have breakfast in the morning?

22 A. At 7.00.

23 Q. When did you arrive at the breakfast?

24 A. Around 7.00. I don't know exactly.

25 Q. Did you see Kunarac that morning at breakfast?

Page 5184

1 A. As I said, I did.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just be clear? What date is this now, the

3 breakfast in the morning at 7.00. What date are we discussing?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 3rd August 1992.

5 Q. How long did Kunarac stay there?

6 A. About 15 minutes, no longer than that. As long as it took to

7 finish breakfast.

8 Q. Were there any other soldiers there at breakfast?

9 A. Yes, about 15, 20 of them, those who were sleeping in the

10 barracks, nobody else. And people didn't particularly want to come to

11 take breakfast there because the food was not so good. They would

12 otherwise eat at home.

13 Q. So if I understand you correctly, only those who spent the night

14 there ate there?

15 A. Yes. There was no reason for those who had stayed at home to have

16 taken breakfast there because the food was not good.

17 Q. Did you see when Kunarac left?

18 A. Yes. He left after the breakfast.

19 Q. And did you see how he left?

20 A. I didn't, but a colleague who was on the guard post told me that

21 he had taken a vehicle from him and then left.

22 Q. And what about the truck with the 3-barrel anti-aircraft gun which

23 had been brought there, which you saw the brief night at 10.00, 10.30,

24 11.00? Was it still there at the parking in the morning?

25 A. I believe it was also driven away. Something was wrong with it.

Page 5185

1 It had a mechanical problem.

2 Q. You said that Zaga had left command post. How did he leave, in a

3 car?

4 A. He took my colleague's car, a fellow guard.

5 Q. What is your colleague's name?

6 A. Nenad Drinak. He was a close friend, and he later died. We were

7 in the hospital together.

8 Q. You said on the 3rd of August, when Zaga left -- when did you see

9 Kunarac next?

10 A. After August 3rd, maybe five, six, seven days later, he again came

11 to the Command, as he used to. He would come to see the Commander. He

12 would greet us, and then he would leave.

13 Q. During your stay there, did you learn whether there was any other

14 fighting around Foca in the period following the taking of Rogoj?

15 A. The next day, the Muslim forces retook Rogoj, so we held onto it

16 very briefly. On the 3rd there was still fighting.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

18 further questions.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence for the

21 accused Kovac has no questions of this witness.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic.

23 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have any questions for this

24 witness. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

Page 5186












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Page 5187

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

3 Q. Good morning, Witness.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. Witness, you knew Mr. Kunarac, Dragoljub Kunarac, from childhood

6 onwards, right?

7 A. Yes. We were neighbours.

8 Q. And you knew the Kunarac family well, didn't you, being such close

9 neighbours?

10 A. We weren't very close. We were neighbours. We knew each other.

11 I knew the family.

12 Q. And the families, your family and the Kunarac family, socialised

13 with each other, didn't they?

14 A. We didn't really socialise, as I said, because we weren't peers.

15 We were not close in age. He's older than I am. And as far as families

16 are concerned, no, the families did not socialise.

17 Q. You are still living in this neighbourhood?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The Kunarac family as well?

20 A. Yes. In fact, his father was killed in the war. His mother and

21 brother live there.

22 Q. You told us, when you returned in May 1992 to Foca, that you

23 reported to the municipal defence office.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. There was a general mobilisation proclaimed, right?

Page 5188

1 A. No, not yet, I think. The state of war had not yet been

2 declared. It was only declared later. This was all on a voluntary

3 basis.

4 Q. You recall that you gave a statement to the Defence counsel?

5 A. Yes, in the Serb Sarajevo; that is, to the investigator of The

6 Hague Tribunal, and then I also gave a statement to the investigator of

7 the Kunarac Defence.

8 Q. Do you know when you gave this statement to the Defence? Do you

9 recall the date?

10 A. To the Defence? Perhaps about a year ago, somewhere around

11 there. Perhaps around this time of the year I gave a statement to the

12 Defence. I don't know the exact date. I know it was the summer, it was

13 summer.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like the usher to give the previous

15 statement to the witness to verify it.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one is it? Can we have it properly described,

17 recorded by all dates?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The problem is, there is no date on

19 it.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Not even a year?

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There's not even a year on it. This is --

22 what we can say, we would like to have the witness look at it and verify

23 that this is his signature. It must have been given before the statement

24 that the Prosecutor took, because this was already known. But

25 unfortunately, there is no date on it. But the Defence may be able to --

Page 5189

1 JUDGE HUNT: We don't want it. Just show it to the witness.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it in Serbo-Croat?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's a B/C/S statement.

4 Q. Would you please have a look at it, Witness. Do you see -- is

5 that your signature on it?

6 A. Yes, it is my signature, and the personal data is correct. Can I

7 read it through to confirm that it is my statement?

8 Q. Yes, please.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: You can read it through quietly.

10 A. It's my statement. It's mine.


12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution would like to enter this

14 statement into evidence.


16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Because I want to come to the inconsistency.

17 Because if you look at the statement -- if you look at the statement --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you proceed, counsel, can we have a number

19 for identification only?

20 THE REGISTRAR: The number is 236.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: For identification only. Now, you were talking

22 about the inconsistency.


24 JUDGE MUMBA: May we have more than that?

25 JUDGE HUNT: We've been through this before. Wait to see whether

Page 5190

1 he accepts that it is an inconsistency. If it is, we don't need the

2 documents. We tried to say to you before, it's unnecessary to tender it

3 unless it has to be established that it is an inconsistency, and if it is

4 necessary, perhaps to see its context, but wait until you have dealt with

5 it with the witness in cross-examination. Then, if it's necessary, tender

6 it.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But it's marked for identification.


9 JUDGE MUMBA: Only, yes.


11 Q. Would you please look at it again? Can you -- you still have it?

12 Yes. When you look into the third sentence of this body of the statement,

13 it says that -- I will read it to you. "The next day, I went to the

14 municipal defence office to get my wartime assignment because a general

15 mobilisation had been proclaimed."

16 So when you gave this statement, you said there was a general

17 mobilisation, but now you say that it was not?

18 A. Nobody had proclaimed it. People mobilised on their own

19 initiative. It was not official. It did not come from any authorities.

20 People simply mobilised on their own.

21 Q. But why did you say, because --

22 A. People organised themselves. I said --

23 Q. In this statement, when you look into the third sentence, it says

24 "Because a general mobilisation had been proclaimed." Is that then an

25 error?

Page 5191

1 A. Well, perhaps it's not an error, but it doesn't say that the

2 government proclaimed a mobilisation, it just says "general

3 mobilisation." People volunteered. They mobilised themselves, on their

4 own. The authorities did not proclaim, it was not ordered; nobody

5 ordered. There was no possibility of anyone ordering us to mobilise. It

6 was all on a voluntary basis.

7 Q. When you gave this statement, you said it may have been a year

8 ago, was that the first time you that you were actually asked about the

9 dates and the special events in July/August 1992?

10 A. Yes. That is the first time they contacted me. They asked my

11 father whether I could testify, and I said I would because I had been in

12 Foca at that time. Then they asked me those questions, and the first

13 question was: Would I testify about the 2nd of August and did I know what

14 happened on that day? And I said, "Yes, I had been there and I will

15 testify to it."

16 Q. Before that first contact, you did not have reason to think about

17 what happened on the 2nd of August or the days before and after; is that

18 right?

19 A. Well, I didn't think about it much. I didn't have any contacts.

20 I wasn't interested in it. It was a long time ago, and I was trying to

21 forget it because in those months, bad things had happened. A lot of

22 people were killed. There were refugees coming to Foca from all sides,

23 from the surrounds villages. It was a very difficult situation.

24 Q. When you came to Foca in May 1992, there was no fighting in town,

25 right, in the town itself?

Page 5192

1 A. Not in the centre of town, but there was fighting on the

2 surrounding hills where the demarcation line was because, in fact, we were

3 surrounded. That was one of the reasons I didn't go back to Sarajevo. It

4 was not possible. It wasn't possible to go back because almost every road

5 was mined and there were ambushes. I think that on the territory of the

6 municipality of Foca there was no road where someone had not been killed

7 either by a mine or because of an ambush. It was a very, very, difficult

8 situation in May 1992.

9 Q. But in May 1992, Foca town itself was under Serb control, right?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. You are aware that at that time, Muslims were detained in KP Dom,

12 right?

13 A. I don't know that. As far as I know, that was a pre-war penal and

14 correctional institution, and I didn't know that then. I only read it in

15 the Muslim press after the war, that and many other things that were not

16 clear to me. It seems to me now, that it was as if I wasn't living

17 there. Some things were not clear to me.

18 Q. And you're aware that mosques were destroyed at that time, right?

19 A. Well, several mosques in the centre ever town where I passed by,

20 where I moved, they had been destroyed. Only a larger Dzamija was left,

21 the larger mosque, and near the market and near the bridges, three mosques

22 had been destroyed. As for the others, I don't know. I didn't pass by

23 there. But later I saw that they were. But apart from the Aladza mosque,

24 which was destroyed on the 2nd of August, the others were destroyed.

25 Q. Witness, during the events, you were a security guard at Velecevo,

Page 5193

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Velecevo, that was not the barracks, it was just a command post,

4 right?

5 A. Well, you can't say it was a command post. It was just a place

6 where we gathered. It was a kind of Territorial Defence Command, later I

7 learned it was called the Tactical Group. First, I thought that it was

8 the Territorial Defence, but when I was working there, I discovered it was

9 called a Tactical Group.

10 Q. It was place where only the security staff was housed, right? It

11 was not a place where hundreds and hundreds of soldiers were housed,

12 right?

13 A. There weren't hundreds, but it was possible to accommodate between

14 100 or 150 and 200 people. At the time I was there, there were about 20

15 of us there. We were all security men, and another 30 men perhaps. About

16 50, 60 in all, together with the security men, were housed in the

17 barracks.

18 Q. Your duty was to secure the area inside and outside of Velecevo,

19 right?

20 A. Well, my duty was to secure the reception desk and the area just

21 around it, some 15 or 20 metres, up to 30 metres outside the barracks, and

22 there were other guards standing guard. But I was only at the reception

23 desk, at the entrance.

24 Q. I would like to show you, with the help of the usher, I would like

25 to show you a photo. It's Exhibit 11, and the photo is 7335 and 7336.

Page 5194

1 It's from the photo binder.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can use this here. You don't need to --

3 we can use this here.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher please get the photo from counsel?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Could you please put it on the ELMO?

6 Q. Would you please look at the lower photo, first. The lower photo

7 first. That's the photo 7336. Is that the entrance to the Command, to

8 Velecevo?

9 A. Yes, that's the entrance.

10 Q. And you described, while you were questioned by my colleague, you

11 described that there were actually three guards, one at the entrance gate

12 to let in the vehicles. Is that the gate you see on the photo?

13 A. Yes. Yes, the bigger one. There was a smaller gate to the right

14 of it for pedestrians.

15 Q. Could you please take the pointer and point at the main gate, the

16 big gate?

17 A. There. That's the big one. This was an auxiliary gate for

18 pedestrians.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the big gate

20 where the street is, and to the little gate attached to the building.


22 Q. And you mentioned the third guard. Where would this person be, in

23 the registration or administration?

24 A. There is a window here where the reception desk is, and this is

25 where he sat and did administrative work, but it wasn't well organised.

Page 5195

1 Q. So it's the room on the ground floor of this building, right next

2 to the entrance, right?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. Can we now have a look at the upper photo. That's the photo

5 7335. There is a parking lot in front of the gate, to the left side of

6 the gate, right?

7 A. Yes, for civilians and for visitors, and there was another parking

8 lot inside, above the other building, the Command. This was for visitors,

9 if a visitor came. But the parking lot for the army was another one

10 inside, inside the barracks.

11 Q. So a convoy like you have described would go through the entrance

12 gate and then into the -- behind the building into the main compound,

13 right?

14 A. Yes. He went along that road and below the reception desk there's

15 another there, and that's where he parked. There were four or five cars

16 parked there. I don't know exactly.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, usher. We don't have any photos

18 from the compound itself because we couldn't get into it.

19 Q. You said that Mr. Kunarac, with a group of soldiers, were on the

20 truck when they arrived, right?

21 A. On the truck -- on the truck next to the 3-barrel gun. There was

22 only a driver inside and perhaps another man. He was up on the truck

23 beside the 3-barrel anti-aircraft gun.

24 Q. When they came, you were in the registration office, right? You

25 were not outside at the gate?

Page 5196












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 5197

1 A. I was at the gate, at the gate. I was expecting them because we

2 had heard that Rogoj had been taken, and we expected men to come to the

3 Command to report personally because we heard this over the radio.

4 Q. Let me refer you again to your previous statement you gave to

5 Defence counsel. The fifth sentence, fifth sentence: "I remember well

6 that I was in the registration office." That's in this statement, not

7 that you were at the gate.

8 A. It says "at the registration." It wasn't just the room that was

9 counted but the entrance as well, the whole area around it.

10 Q. But it says in your statement: "I remember well that I was in the

11 registration office." You have just --

12 A. I remember I was at the reception. I don't know what it says in

13 your statement, but that's what it says in mine. That's what it says

14 here. "I remember well I was at the registration of the facility," not

15 inside.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have here the translation that we received

17 from the Defence counsels, and here it says, "I was in the registration

18 office." But he has explained it now.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: You accept the explanation?


21 JUDGE MUMBA: You do? I didn't get your answer.


23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He explained to us where he was.

25 Q. You did not see who was driving the truck, right?

Page 5198

1 A. No. No, I didn't see who was driving it. It was a soldier.

2 Q. You said that it was around -- between 9.00 and 10.00 in the

3 evening, and it was just after dark, right?

4 A. Yes. It was just getting dark. It was the first darkness. I

5 don't remember exactly what time it was. Perhaps 10.00 or half past

6 nine. I just know that it was dark.

7 Q. And with this truck, several other cars arrived, didn't they?

8 A. Yes. Yes, several other vehicles arrived.

9 Q. And you saw them all closely only in the parking lot, right? All

10 these people and all these cars that came you saw only in the parking

11 lot.

12 A. No. I saw them at the gate, at the gate when they were coming

13 in. I saw them there. And the parking lot was down below, and they got

14 down, we congratulated them, then he got up onto the truck again and they

15 went in and parked and then they went into the building.

16 Q. Do you recall that you gave a statement to the Prosecutor, the

17 investigators in Sarajevo?

18 A. I remember. I remember, yes.

19 Q. And in this statement you mentioned that: "I don't know who was

20 driving the truck. By the time I had got to the parking lot, the soldiers

21 were all off the truck." Do you recall that, that you described this

22 scene?

23 A. Yes, I remember.

24 Q. So it sounds as if you only saw everybody closely in the parking

25 lot and not while they were driving through because you were in the

Page 5199

1 registration office, involved with administration things. No?

2 A. No. I was at the reception. They were about a metre away from me

3 when they passed by. I saw them at the reception.

4 Q. This captured truck, what kind of truck was it?

5 A. It was a civilian truck. It was painted green and it had some

6 writing on it. I don't remember exactly what it said. It was a gift from

7 some Arab country. I can't remember exactly, but that's what it said on

8 it. It was a civilian truck and it was simply painted over.

9 Q. But you said there was something in Arabic writing on it? You saw

10 that in the dark?

11 A. Well, it wasn't complete darkness. There is a lamp, there is a

12 light at the registration. It said something, "A gift to the people of

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina," from an Arab country, whichever. You couldn't

14 fail to see it. The registration area is lighted.

15 Q. How big was that sign in Arabic? Was it a huge board or what was

16 it?

17 A. It wasn't a board, it was written right on the truck. It was not

18 a plaque or anything, it was written in letters on the truck, on the

19 lorry.

20 Q. And how big? How big was it, this writing on the truck?

21 A. I wouldn't know exactly.

22 Q. But you could see it from standing further away?

23 A. I could see it perhaps from 10 metres distance. I can't say

24 exactly, but it was not in small letters. It was in big letters. You

25 could see it from afar and come closer and read exactly what it said.

Page 5200

1 Q. You said that Mr. Kunarac was in a group of people, a group of

2 soldiers, and you knew some of them, right?

3 A. I knew them by sight. I didn't know their names. I knew only him

4 because he was a neighbour.

5 Q. You don't know any of the names of the soldiers? For instance,

6 Gaga, Dragutin Vukovic. Does that sound familiar to you?

7 A. No. No, I hadn't heard it. I knew them by sight. I can't

8 remember their names.

9 Q. And Dragoljub Kunarac was in charge of these men, right?

10 A. Well, you can't say he led them. He was a simple soldier. He

11 couldn't have led them because we didn't have this organised military

12 structure where you know straight away who is a commander and who isn't.

13 He was a simple soldier, like any other.

14 Q. You said that Mr. Kunarac stayed in Velecevo for about an hour, an

15 hour and a half, right?

16 A. Yes, after he came.

17 Q. And the soldiers celebrated inside of the compound, but you were

18 at the gate, were you not?

19 A. Yes. I was standing guard.

20 Q. That means you did not see Mr. Kunarac within this hour or one

21 hour and a half, right?

22 A. No, until he came to the registration area.

23 Q. You said that Mr. Kunarac left about 11.00 in the night, together

24 with another person in a car, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5201

1 Q. This car came from inside the compound? You only saw it passing

2 through the gate, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You did not recognise the other person in the car, right?

5 A. No, I didn't. I was standing about 10 to 20 metres away from the

6 gate, so I couldn't see. I recognised him, but I didn't recognise the

7 other person. I don't know who it was.

8 Q. They were driving through and they did not talk to you, right?

9 A. Well, they stopped to have the gate opened. There was no speed.

10 They drove normally.

11 Q. After the detonation of the mosque, you said you saw Mr. Kunarac

12 about ten minutes later, coming back, right?

13 A. Well, I said about ten, but it could have been half an hour. It

14 could have been ten minutes. I didn't look at my watch.

15 Q. While he went inside of the compound, you had to stay on duty.

16 You remained at the gate, right?

17 A. Yes. I was around the gate. I wasn't obligated to stand right

18 next to the gate. I was just making circles around. When a vehicle would

19 come up, I would approach and open the gate. It was not very strictly

20 organised. We didn't have strict working hours. Sometimes I could stand

21 guard for two or three hours, because it wasn't difficult, a strenuous

22 job.

23 Q. You remained on duty for maybe another 20 minutes and then you,

24 yourself, went to sleep, right?

25 A. I left about 12.00. I turned in around midnight, yes.

Page 5202

1 Q. And you went to the washroom to prepare yourself for sleep and

2 then you slept, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You did not see Mr. Kunarac after you left your duty and went to

5 sleep, right?

6 A. I saw him while I was preparing to turn in because the toilet is

7 close to the staircase which leads to the dormitory. I saw him passing by

8 towards the dormitory.

9 Q. Let me refer you to your previous statement you gave to the

10 Prosecutor's Office investigators, and there you said: "I got off duty

11 soon after Zaga returned. I went to the washroom and then I went to

12 sleep. I slept through the night." You did not mention to the

13 investigators that you saw Mr. Kunarac again after coming from the gate

14 and going to sleep. You didn't mention it at that time.

15 A. I don't quite follow you. If you don't mind, please repeat the

16 question.

17 Q. When you gave your statement to the investigators in Sarajevo, you

18 simply mentioned that you, after -- "I got off duty soon after Zaga

19 returned. I went to the washroom to get ready for sleep and then I went

20 to bed, and I slept through the night. I saw Zaga the next morning." You

21 did not mention, as you did today, that you saw him after coming from your

22 duty and on your way to the bedroom. You didn't mention that you saw him

23 at that time. Do you recall that?

24 A. I think I did mention it. I think I did mention that I saw him as

25 I was turning in. I can't believe I had omitted it.

Page 5203

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to have the witness shown his

2 previous statement to the Prosecutor, with the help of the usher. Can we

3 have this marked as -- marked for identification?

4 Q. Witness, do you see the signature, your signature on all the

5 pages?

6 A. Yes, I see it, but the statement is in English.

7 Q. Yes. It's in English only because it was taken by the Tribunal.

8 But I will read to you the passage that I was talking about.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The one he's talking about, the English one, that's

10 the one the witness signed.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's the one the witness signed.

12 That's the usual ICTY statement where the witness signs the English

13 version. He cannot read the English version, but it's read back to him.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for identification only?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, the number is 237.


17 Q. Will you please -- do you recall that you gave this statement?

18 It's a statement from the 11th of February, 2000.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in this statement, I'll read it to you and then you can hear

21 the translation, it says in this statement: "I got off duty soon after

22 Zaga returned after the explosion, maybe 15 to 20 minutes after he came

23 back. So it was about midnight when I got off duty. I went to the

24 washroom to get ready for sleep and then I went to bed. I slept through

25 the night and saw Zaga the next morning."

Page 5204

1 So in this statement, it is not taken down that you saw him in

2 between while coming from the gate, going to your sleeping room.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, you want to say something before

4 the witness answers?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] [No translation]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: We have no English translation.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence objects to the way my

8 colleague interprets this statement. We have a translation of this

9 statement and it reads completely differently. I would like the

10 interpreters to be given the original of the statement in English, and I

11 can also give my -- provide my translation of the statement so we can

12 determine exactly what the witness said.

13 What my learned friend is quoting is not what I have, and the

14 version that I have is the one we got from the Prosecutor's Office in

15 English, and I was also present when the statement was taken from this

16 witness. As far as my memory serves me, the witness said nothing of the

17 kind. Not only I was present, but my learned friends Prodanovic and

18 Kolesar, and we witnessed the signing of that statement as well as many

19 other statements.

20 I would like these statements to be given to interpreters.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution can see -- I think the problem we

23 have here appears to be that even the interpretation of what you have read

24 in English into Serbo-Croat appears to be different, and what the Defence

25 counsel is saying also presents interpretation problems.

Page 5205

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't think that it is an interpretation

2 problem, because I think we are talking about two different parts of this

3 statement. The witness, in his statement, talked about how he saw Zaga

4 during -- when he came.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Which paragraph did you read?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm referring to the paragraph 4 on page 4.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Of the English statement.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Of the English statement.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: And which part of it is in Serbo-Croat?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't have a --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution statement in English was never

12 officially translated into Serbo-Croat.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, it was never.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: So the witness was not --

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It was only read back when it was -- of

16 course, when it was taken. It was read back, but it was not translated.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: So the interpretation given to the witness of that

18 statement from English into Serbo-Croat was never written down.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, it was oral. It was an oral

20 interpretation. That is what the proceedings are.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: And you can see the problem we are having here;

22 another interpreter uses different words, another interpreter uses

23 different words. So it is really difficult to hold a witness to an

24 English statement which was orally translated into Serbo-Croat, but the

25 Serbo-Croat used to the witness was never written down.

Page 5206

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I see that there is a problem with

2 these proceedings. I am aware of this.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a moment. You did say, as I understood it, that

4 you were apparently referring to a different part of that, upon which the

5 Defence thinks you are relying. It might be a good idea, during the short

6 adjournment, for you to show your document so that the context can be

7 demonstrated. But then, you see, the Defence also said they were given a

8 Serbo-Croatian or a B/C/S version of this by the Prosecution. Now, that

9 may mean that your referring to two entirely different documents. I don't

10 know. But it's something which would be easier sorted out between the two

11 of you during the adjournment.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, that's right. We better

13 check it, because I'm not aware of any B/C/S translation of this

14 document.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: By the Prosecution.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. We didn't do it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Because it creates problems when you are trying to

18 hold the witness to what he might have said and might not have said. So

19 please deal with this during the break. If you still feel it is important

20 for your case, that there are these contradictions --

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I thought it was a contradiction, but

22 we will now find out, sort this out.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: So you still want to proceed with the witness after

24 sorting it out.


Page 5207

1 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest, it may be too late, it's certainly too

2 late for this case, but there should be some better procedure adopted by

3 the Office of the Prosecution, the Office of the Prosecutor, in

4 interviewing witnesses. As a matter of sheer necessity, I can understand

5 that it is taken down in English, but at the time when it's translated to

6 the accused or witness, whoever it may be who gave the statement, there

7 should be some form of recording done so that this sort of argument can't

8 be raised. It's ripe for problems, the one that has been adopted.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. You're right, Your Honour, and it is a

10 problem ever since. It was discussed even, I think, in a plenary session

11 on one occasion, how this could be made in a better way, but it was -- no

12 decision was made.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the translator of the English statement to

14 the witness is not available.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, that's true.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because you know the problem with languages.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Fine. We'll get our break, and hopefully you'll

19 sort it out.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness will continue for cross-examination when

22 we come back.

23 The proceedings will continue at 11.30 hours this morning.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

Page 5208

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll continue with cross-examination of the

2 witness. The Prosecution.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: During the break we have sorted the

4 translation out, and there is no matter for me to return to this

5 question. There is no inconsistencies in this point. It's just a matter

6 of translation. There is also no need to enter this document into

7 evidence at all.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So you can proceed.


10 Q. I would like to clarify a matter. It's a matter of the

11 transcript, a misunderstanding, obviously, on my side. You said that you

12 saw Mr. Kunarac leave together with another soldier and that you did not

13 know this soldier, when he left before the mosque was blown up.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But in the transcript it sounds as if he was with another soldier,

16 Vlado Nivo, that is how it is in the transcript, but I assume that's the

17 car make, Lada Nive?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In the transcript it sounds as if he left with a person. So he

20 left in a car, a Lada Nive, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you for clearing that up.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Because I was checking, and I was

24 wondering.

25 Q. What colour did the car have?

Page 5209

1 A. Light grey.

2 Q. And was it the car of Mr. Kunarac, that he usually used?

3 A. No. That was a vehicle used by the Command. In fact, it was used

4 in the barracks, and the Command used it as needed, whoever needed it.

5 Q. But the Command had several cars, right? It was not the only car

6 at all?

7 A. No. There were several vehicles. I don't know who had private

8 vehicles there, but I know that this was a jeep-type vehicle used by the

9 Command.

10 Q. And you said that this other soldier, whom you did not know, was

11 hitchhiking together with Mr. Kunarac.

12 A. I said that it was possible. I'm not 100 per cent sure. I

13 assume. There was a soldier there, but I don't know who it was, because I

14 was a bit far away from the gate when they passed through and when they

15 departed for Foca.

16 Q. Soldiers used to hitchhike into town when they wanted to get away

17 from Velecevo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Witness, do you know the organisation soldiers of Republika Srpska

20 municipality organisation of soldiers Srbinje.

21 A. I don't know.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would just

25 like to ask a couple of questions to the witness.

Page 5210

1 Re-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

2 Q. Did he mean when he said by general mobilisation that everybody

3 who wanted to go could report?

4 A. Yes. Some people reported and some people did not, to the

5 Ministry of Defence.

6 Q. And at that time, was that a general trend, that people who were

7 able-bodied would just report to the Ministry of Defence?

8 A. Most of them did report, even those who were not militarily fit.

9 They wanted to defend their villages. So some did, some did not.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, no questions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic?

14 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have any questions. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence.

17 You may leave the witness box. Wait until you are escorted.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make the solemn

21 declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 5211












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5212

1 JUDGE MUMBA: You may sit down.

2 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

5 Q. Good morning, Witness. I would like to tell you that the Trial

6 Chamber has agreed to your request for protective measures, and you will

7 now be referred to as Witness DE. Do you understand that?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have the usher --

10 Q. You saw the paper. Can you confirm that it is your name written

11 on it, your date and place of birth?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And finally, before asking you the first question, I would just

14 like to advise you to wait until I have finished asking my question. It

15 has to be interpreted into the English language. And pause before giving

16 your answer. Is that clear to you?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where you live now --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Just a minute, Mr. Prodanovic.

20 THE REGISTRAR: D142, under seal.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

22 You may proceed.

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Can you tell us, where do you live now?

25 A. I live in my hometown of Dobro Polje.

Page 5213

1 Q. What do you do?

2 A. I am a private restaurant owner.

3 Q. Have you lived in Dobro Polje all your life?

4 A. No, I have not.

5 Q. Where did you live?

6 A. I also lived in Sarajevo, where I have a family house.

7 Q. When did you live in Sarajevo?

8 A. I lived, as a child, between 1970 and 1986.

9 Q. With whom did you live there?

10 A. I lived there with my parents, who at the time were working in

11 Sarajevo.

12 Q. Did you go to school there?

13 A. Yes. I completed the elementary schooling, then the secondary

14 school, and then for a while I worked in the public sector.

15 Q. Does that mean that in the period of 1970 to 1986 you did not go

16 to Dobro Polje?

17 A. Yes, I did go to Dobro Polje, but that was at the time of summer

18 vacations and school breaks and weekends.

19 Q. You said that you lived in Sarajevo up to 1986. Where did you

20 live after that?

21 A. My parents retired at that time, and they moved back to the

22 hometown, to our house where my grandparents lived, and that's where we

23 all moved back, including myself.

24 Q. Can you tell us where Dobro Polje is in relation to Foca?

25 A. Dobro Polje, my hometown, is on the main highway, Sarajevo-Foca,

Page 5214

1 somewhere at the midway point. We are just at the Rogoj Pass.

2 Q. Where is your village of Dobro Polje in relation to the Rogoj

3 Pass?

4 A. As I said, my village is directly under the Rogoj Pass. It is 4

5 kilometres from the Rogoj Pass in the direction of Foca.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. What is the ethnic composition of your village?

15 A. My village is a Serbian ethnic village. It's completely Serb.

16 Q. Can you tell us, how did the first conflict happen in your area?

17 A. Our village was affected for the first time on May 1, 1992. That

18 was the date when we had to get organised and start thinking about the

19 war.

20 Q. You mentioned 1st of May. Did an incident happen on that day?

21 A. Yes. I mentioned that date because I will remember it for as long

22 as I live. There was a terrible incident. On the road near the village,

23 my relative, Drago Przulj was killed there.

24 Q. Where did this incident take place in relation to your village?

25 A. The incident happened on the road between Dobro Polje and Foca.

Page 5215












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 5216

1 There was a bridge about 5 kilometres out of Dobro Polje, and at the

2 bridge there is a turn-off for a Muslim village, and that's where the

3 incident took place.

4 Q. You mentioned that the road branches off to a Muslim village.

5 What is the name of that village?

6 A. The village is Varos.

7 Q. Can you explain how this incident occurred?

8 A. One could say that it was an accident, but when you look more

9 closely, it wasn't an accident. The Muslim forces, which at that time

10 were roaming the mountains surrounding my village, and they were led by a

11 former Captain of JNA, his last name was Besovic, so they sent a team, a

12 group of people. I don't know if they were special units -- cannot tell.

13 Most probably they were because they were very adept at the job that they

14 did. They brought some anti-tank mines and some other equipment for

15 mining of the bridge, and they carried out this operation.

16 We were unaware of all this going on. We learned about it by

17 accident because one of my close relatives, by accident was -- by chance

18 was passing by in a car, he was going to visit some of his Muslim

19 acquaintances, and he became suspicious. Some people went and hid under

20 the bridge, and he found that suspicious. So he turned -- made an U-turn

21 in the middle of the road and went back to the village to notify people.

22 Q. What happened next?

23 A. We panicked. And we couldn't understand the seriousness of this

24 situation. Those who were -- some of those who were naive went there.

25 They went in a vehicle of Golf make to go and see what that was. When

Page 5217

1 they arrived at the bridge, they were ambushed and there was shooting.

2 And they were practically unarmed. The other side was waiting in ambush,

3 and they started firing at the vehicle.

4 The car somehow managed to return with one of the passengers being

5 wounded. There were five people in the car. One of them remained with my

6 relative who was killed there, and the other three managed to get back and

7 notify us of the event.

8 Q. Where were you at the time when this news came?

9 A. I learned all this -- I was in Kalinovik, and I had been in

10 Kalinovik and I was on my way back to the village. It's about

11 20 kilometres. Halfway on my way, there was an ambulance which drove by

12 with this wounded man. I saw that on the road, in passing. I had a

13 foreboding, and I stopped the first vehicle who was following the

14 ambulance and I asked them what had happened. They very quickly told me

15 that some of the Przulj people had been wounded, and these were my

16 people.

17 Q. What did you do there?

18 A. I sped up home. My mother and sister were in a state of panic

19 because my father and brother had already left, as I was told then, to try

20 to pull out this relative.

21 Q. Did you follow them?

22 A. Yes, immediately.

23 Q. What did you find there when you arrived?

24 A. You see, this happened at dusk and there was heavy rain. The

25 terrain was inaccessible. We were also afraid of further ambushes.

Page 5218

1 So we took a byroad and only managed to arrive there very late.

2 We arrived there where my relative was, and we managed to pull him out

3 using this side road, but we saw that he was showing no signs of life any

4 more.

5 Q. Do you know whether the bridge had been mined?

6 A. Yes, I do. In the following days, that is the following two or

7 three days, I went there with a group of people and some of our people who

8 knew how to handle mines, defuse them. So the bridge was not blown up,

9 but in my assessment, it would have been blown up very shortly.

10 Q. At that time, did you organise yourselves?

11 A. Yes. It was clear to us then that there would be no freedom for

12 us unless we defended ourselves with weapons. Then we gathered in the

13 village, although there were not many of us, and we somehow organised

14 ourselves. We collected all the weapons we had in our possession. Then

15 it was a mountain village, and everybody had some kind of weapon. Some

16 had hunting rifles, others had pistols. In any case, we collected all

17 these weapons, and we organised the village guards at the approaches to

18 the village.

19 Q. Did you know why the Muslims wanted to mine the bridge?

20 A. Well, it became clear to us only later. This is the main

21 communication connecting certain towns, the Sarajevo part with the eastern

22 part of Foca, and they wanted to cut off this communication and separate

23 the territory.

24 Q. Did you learn later where that group had come from?

25 A. Yes. Later we learned that they were from Tjentiste. There were

Page 5219

1 many provocations. All this was taking place at the foothills of Mount

2 Zelengora, Tjentiste, and other places where there were already organised

3 Muslim groups mounting daily attacks on the territory of my municipality

4 and my local commune and my native village.

5 Q. Is Tjentiste underneath Mount Zelengora?

6 A. Yes. I don't know exactly where it is, but it is on Zelengora.

7 Q. Do the slopes of Zelengora reach down to Kalinovik?

8 A. Yes. Yes, very close to Kalinovik, within sight of Kalinovik.

9 Q. What happened after that in Dobro Polje?

10 A. Well, in Dobro Polje at that time, and we are talking about May,

11 the situation was that we organised. We tried to find out what was going

12 on. War was already raging in some areas, but there were only sporadic

13 provocations in certain hamlets in our area.

14 Q. To what municipality does your village belong?

15 A. It belongs to the municipality of Kalinovik.

16 Q. Do you know whether there was a general mobilisation proclaimed on

17 the territory of the municipality of Kalinovik?

18 A. Yes. Toward the end of the month, around the 28th of May, general

19 mobilisation was proclaimed in my village and we all responded.

20 Q. Do you know why general mobilisation was proclaimed?

21 A. Well, because of the frequent provocations and the imminent threat

22 against our whole municipality which was exposed or, rather, was the

23 subject of various military interests.

24 Q. You said that a general mobilisation had been proclaimed. Did you

25 go to Kalinovik?

Page 5220

1 A. Yes. I went in a group on the 28th of May. We organised a

2 group.

3 Q. Were you issued with weapons and given an assignment?

4 A. Yes. I was issued with a M-48 rifle, which I had seen only in the

5 army when I did my military service, but even then I did not carry a

6 rifle. However, I was issued with a M-48 rifle and a normal olive-grey

7 uniform.

8 Q. Were you assigned to a unit?

9 A. Yes, because some people had been killed in the surrounding area.

10 On that day, we were given our wartime assignments and we went to carry

11 them out.

12 Q. Can you tell us, after the 28th of May was there any fighting in

13 the area?

14 A. Not in our area, not in the part where we were. Our wartime

15 assignment was to be at the Rogoj Pass, on the right-hand side of Rogoj.

16 That part was called Ravni Rogoj, and that was where we were given our

17 wartime assignment, and we took that part.

18 Q. You mentioned just a moment ago the village of Varos, which was

19 inhabited, as you said, exclusively by Muslims. Was there a village in

20 the vicinity with a Serbian population?

21 A. Yes, near Varos. The village of Osija was the nearest village.

22 That was the village that suffered a terrible tragedy later on. In that

23 village --

24 Q. We'll come to that. I would like to ask you whether there were

25 any incidents between the villagers of Osija and your village.

Page 5221

1 A. My group of men, they were mostly people from my village. We were

2 from the local commune to which the village of Osija also belonged. And

3 the people from Osija who were with me where we were keeping that

4 position, there were also some men from the village of Osija, and only

5 elderly people and women and children were left behind in that village,

6 and there were provocations, firing on roofs, and shelling of the

7 village.

8 Q. Did you remain at Ravni Rogoj throughout this time?

9 A. We spent a certain time at Ravni Rogoj, and later we organised

10 ourselves, and the unit consisted of people from Osija. That was a

11 village which was suffering constant provocation. And we were given an

12 order to split in half and to send a part of the group to defend the

13 village of Osija, to protect it, and we did this.

14 Q. Can you tell us what happened on the 31st of July and where you

15 were then?

16 A. On the 31st of July, up to about ten days before that date, we

17 held the position in the village of Osija. Because there was a widespread

18 attack by Muslim forces on the Rogoj Pass, we were urgently sent back to

19 the village of Osija to the part that was more important in order to

20 defend my village and the pass.

21 Q. On your arrival in the Dobro Polje area, what happened there?

22 A. Well, you see, on the 31st of July -- that was the last day of the

23 month -- there was a terrible attack by Muslim forces on the Rogoj Pass,

24 and they were very successful. Our forces were pushed back from Rogoj.

25 There was chaos. A lot of men were killed or wounded. Our forces

Page 5222

1 withdrew from Rogoj and came to my village.

2 Q. Can you tell us what happened to the Serbian population on that

3 territory?

4 A. Well, at that time there was panic. I'll remember that for as

5 long as I live because my family was involved. That night, my village,

6 which was really a hamlet consisting of 15 to 20 houses, about 2.500 to

7 3.000 refugees, women, children, elderly, from the nearby village of

8 Trnovo had arrived. That village had already fallen and was surround by

9 Muslim forces, and their only way out was to cross the Rogoj Pass and seek

10 refuge in my village.

11 Q. You mentioned the small town of Trnovo. Can you tell us, in

12 relation to Rogoj, where is that little town located?

13 A. Well, my village and the town of Trnovo are in the same position,

14 except that my village is on one side of Rogoj and Trnovo is on the other

15 side, in the direction of Trnovo.

16 Q. You said there were refugees. Do you know whether there were

17 casualties among the civilian population?

18 A. Well, on the 1st of August, and I remember it very well, and I

19 have even been traumatised by that day -- I will remember it for as long

20 as I live because the scenes were really horrible. The people from Trnovo

21 arrived over the Rogoj Pass and from the forest, and I saw lots of

22 people. Everybody was grieving for someone. They were carrying wounded

23 people on their backs. They were dressing their wounds, asking for help,

24 but we in the village, because our village was very small, were not able

25 to provide a lot of help to such an enormous crowd of people.

Page 5223

1 Q. Do you know where those people were accommodated when they first

2 arrived?

3 A. Well when they first arrived, that night they spent out in the

4 open and in certain houses. Well, there were about ten houses, so they

5 crowded in. We villagers did our best to help them, but there was

6 terrible panic. They were disorganised. And because the nearest village

7 was Kalinovik and it's about 20 kilometres away, everybody there was

8 helpless.

9 So I took my car, and I made five trips that night transporting

10 groups. So I made five 20-kilometre trips. And I was really tired,

11 exhausted, the following morning.

12 Q. Do you know what the refugees and the civilians were saying? Were

13 they talking about numbers, numbers of people killed?

14 A. Well, everybody had their own story as they had experienced it,

15 but the essence was that there had been a massacre. In that day or two,

16 while all this was going on, from the time it started to the time it

17 ended, we learned later that over 150 civilians had been killed. Nobody

18 even mentioned soldiers who had been killed, because we were actually the

19 army.

20 Q. You said that you drove refugees to Kalinovik. Do you know where

21 these refugees were accommodated in Kalinovik?

22 A. Yes. Well, later on it was better organised, and they were

23 accommodated in the barracks that were already there, and the local motel,

24 which was one of the larger buildings in that town. Some of the refugees

25 went on to safer destinations. The barracks, the health centre, and all

Page 5224

1 the larger buildings were used.

2 Q. Do you know whether refugees were also accommodated in the

3 school?

4 A. Well, I personally don't know what went on there because it was

5 20 kilometres away and I had a military assignment later on. The first

6 time I went back to Kalinovik again was three or four months later.

7 Q. On your return from Kalinovik on the 1st of August, 1992, can you

8 tell us what you did that day?

9 A. Well, as soon as dawn broke, we organised ourselves and we

10 discussed what we should do next. So we organised ourselves there,

11 although we too were in a panic. And throughout the following day, people

12 kept arriving from the forests.

13 We were given orders to approach as close as possible to the

14 Muslim forces, with the intention of securing unhindered, as far as was

15 possible, passage for our people who were still fleeing and coming out of

16 various river beds, streams, woods. That was the 1st of August.

17 Q. Did you have any information about aid arriving on that day?

18 A. Well, that encouraged us, yes, because there was some

19 communication systems, and we were told that this what to happen very fast

20 because we were in a hurry, there was an imminent threat, and help was

21 coming, that people were already out in the field. On that day, our task

22 was simply to offer some resistance to further Muslim advances.

23 Q. You said that on that day, you received information that help was

24 on its way. Do you remember any names being mentioned?

25 A. Yes. A reconnaissance group was mentioned, and a name I later got

Page 5225

1 to know very well, Zaga. And that encouraged us, although we trusted no

2 one at that time, but it did give us some encouragement. The name of Zaga

3 was mentioned and the team of men he arrived with, and they said that he

4 was already out on the ground, that he was active, but we were still

5 afraid.

6 Q. You mentioned the nickname of Zaga. Did you know Zaga?

7 A. I didn't know Zaga personally. It was only later that I saw him

8 and became acquainted with him through the war. But I had heard some

9 stories about him before because it was three months since the war had

10 started and certain legends were already circulating among the soldiers.

11 Q. What happened next on that 1st of August? Did you get an

12 assignment?

13 A. Yes. That day, we got orders to remain in place where we were,

14 just before the Muslim forces, until the arrival of those groups which

15 would go and try to recapture the positions that had been lost.

16 Q. So if I understood you correctly, that was the 1st of August,

17 1992.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell us, was there any fighting going on that night?

20 A. That night, we were actually the first line of defence. There was

21 no fighting. We spent the whole night waiting to see what would happen

22 next.

23 Q. Was there any change in your positions in the night between the

24 1st and 2nd of August? Did you get another assignment?

25 A. Yes. We were given another task. Traumatised by the previous

Page 5226

1 events, we had no strength and no manpower to do anything, but we got the

2 task that when these teams arrived to recapture the lost positions, we

3 were supposed to secure the flanks. We shifted to the side, to their

4 side, the right-hand side of the road, to secure the flank.

5 Q. On that day, the 2nd of August, what did you do next?

6 A. We stayed where we were. There was no fighting to speak of. We

7 were on the ground waiting for the outcome of the situation in Rogoj,

8 because the fighting was already under way, and we were just waiting to

9 see what the outcome would be.

10 Q. Can you tell us, until when did the fighting last in Rogoj?

11 A. It lasted until the afternoon, perhaps 5.00 or 6.00 p.m.

12 Q. Did I understand you correctly: It was the 2nd of August, 1992?

13 A. Yes, the 2nd of August, 1992.

14 Q. Where did you get the news that Rogoj was occupied?

15 A. Exactly where the fighting was going on.

16 Q. When Rogoj was captured, do you know who was sent to secure the

17 positions in Rogoj?

18 A. When Rogoj was captured, because we were close by to those fellows

19 who captured it, we -- to our positions and the positions that were

20 recaptured, groups of soldiers who had fled from Trnovo were sent,

21 together with soldiers who were available in Kalinovik, and a mixed group

22 of people was formed and brought to hold the positions there, the

23 positions that had been captured.

24 Q. What did your group, and you personally, what did you do then?

25 A. We were told, as I said, that we were free and that we could

Page 5227

1 return to Dobro Polje, so we returned to Dobro Polje.

2 Q. Can you tell us, at what time did you and your group return to

3 Dobro Polje?

4 A. Immediately after we received the orders, that is, about 5.00 or

5 6.00 p.m.

6 Q. In Dobro Polje, did you happen to see Kunarac?

7 A. Yes. That very evening was the first time I saw Kunarac in

8 person, and I will remember it as long as I live. I will remember my

9 happiness at returning from Rogoj and at meeting this man.

10 Q. Can you tell us what time it was?

11 A. It was 7.00, 8.00 p.m.

12 Q. Where did you see Kunarac?

13 A. Since we were closer to Dobro Polje than they, we arrived first,

14 and I saw him arriving with a trophy, shall I say, the trophy that he was

15 given as a present that day.

16 Q. Can you tell us what it was?

17 A. It was a lorry with an anti-aircraft gun on it.

18 Q. Did the members of the Foca Brigade, that evening, did they

19 leave?

20 A. They left, yes.

21 Q. In what direction?

22 A. In the direction of Kalinovik, because that was the only road for

23 free communication.

24 Q. Going that way towards Foca, do you have to go to Kalinovik and

25 then on to Foca or is there a short cut?

Page 5228

1 A. You mean the road to Foca?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. You can turn towards Foca and go through the forest. In those

4 months, that was the only available road towards Miljevina and Foca, the

5 only free road before Kalinovik.

6 Q. So we are talking about the evening of the 2nd of August. Can you

7 tell us, where did you spend that night?

8 A. That evening, we were a little happy, a little unhappy. We got

9 the assignment to go and capture and occupy positions around nearby

10 hamlets, such as Sijesca, which belonged to the local community of Dobro

11 Polje.

12 Q. Relative to the communication Dobro Polje-Foca, where was that

13 village?

14 A. Relative to the communication, that is, the thoroughfare

15 Sarajevo-Foca, the village was on the right-hand side, on a rocky plateau,

16 which is, in fact, in a straight line, close to the Osija village. There

17 is just the canyon between the village and the road going to Foca.

18 Q. Did you get any information then as to what happened in the

19 village of Osija?

20 A. Yes. We were informed of a terrible massacre which had happened

21 then, where all the people who had been left behind were killed. Several

22 days before that I had been in that village, and I knew some people

23 there. And by the time I heard the news, they had been killed already.

24 Those were elderly people, women. Sixteen of them were killed then. I

25 even know that there was nobody younger than 60.

Page 5229

1 Q. How long did you hold those positions, speaking again of the 2nd

2 of August?

3 A. In the village of Sijesca, we stayed just one night. So we spent

4 the night, and immediately in the morning we went back, according to

5 orders.

6 Q. Were you told what happened that night and that morning?

7 A. No, we were not told anything. We just got the assignment to go

8 back immediately, and we had a premonition, and we got back.

9 Q. Let me just remind you of the evening before the 2nd of August,

10 when Kunarac left in the direction of Foca. Was that a column?

11 A. Yes. It was a column of vehicles which was formed, and that lorry

12 with the anti-aircraft gun left in the direction of the Kalinovik.

13 Q. You said that on the 3rd of August you returned towards Dobro

14 Polje. Did you find out what had happened upon arrival in Dobro Polje?

15 A. We found out that Muslim forces had again suppressed, pushed back

16 our forces which were in Rogoj. Chaos reigned again in Dobro Polje. The

17 army was scattered. It was a confusion and a commotion in which we

18 couldn't really decide what to do because there were no orders.

19 Q. What happened to you upon arrival in Dobro Polje?

20 A. Again, as in the previous months, we organised ourselves, because

21 we had no command over us, and we tried to do what best we could. And of

22 the several of us who had arrived from Sijesca in Dobro Polje, only half

23 was left. Everybody had somebody who had been killed or wounded, and some

24 of the people came originally from Kalinovik. So there were only about

25 ten of us left.

Page 5230

1 Q. You said only about ten of you were left. What did you do next?

2 A. On our own initiative, we decided to stay in our village, although

3 it was very dangerous at the time, since we were relatives amongst us.

4 And we decided to climb to a rock nearby, about 100 metres above the

5 village, and wait to see what happens next.

6 Q. So we are speaking about the 3rd of August, 1992. Tell us,

7 please, did you see Kunarac on that day?

8 A. Yes. In fact, I didn't see him. I saw him on the 3rd of August.

9 I just confused the dates a little. Give me a minute, please. I can't

10 really concentrate. You sort of keep throwing these dates at me. Could

11 you repeat it?

12 Q. So Muslim forces recaptured the positions. You took those

13 positions on the 2nd. On the eve of the 2nd -- on the evening of the 2nd

14 you went to Sijesca, and on the 3rd you get orders to go back because the

15 Muslim forces had retaken Rogoj. You said that ten of you were left and

16 you took up those positions. Did you see Kunarac on that day?

17 A. Yes. He had just arrived, and we were encouraged by the news of

18 his arrival because we were uncertain as to what to do next.

19 Q. Can you tell us where you saw him?

20 A. We saw him, and those were the only people we saw that day; there

21 were, as far as I remember, five, six, or seven who had arrived there on

22 assignment. And through some communication that we had, we were told they

23 were already coming on assignment.

24 Q. Did you talk to Kunarac on that day, and can you tell us what time

25 it was when you saw him?

Page 5231

1 A. Yes, we talked. In fact, he encouraged us to stay there because

2 he was aware of the commotion going on. He encouraged us and told us that

3 his people were on the ground already, following their assignment, and

4 then he left.

5 Q. Was that morning, daytime, or evening?

6 A. Let me see. The 3rd of August. That was in the evening.

7 Q. Do you know where Zaga had come from?

8 A. Zaga had come from Kalinovik, and that was the only direction from

9 which he could have come.

10 Q. Did he ask you for anything?

11 A. Well, you see, we were in a total uncertainty. He didn't ask

12 anything; he just asked us to take him to the nearby village so that they

13 could approach safely some of those dangerous spots where the Muslims had

14 taken up positions already, and that's what we did. We sent two people,

15 two locals from our group, and they took them to that settlement towards

16 Rogoj.

17 Q. Do you know what settlement that was?

18 A. That is the hamlet of Boljanovici, and the locals I mentioned

19 accompanied them to Boljanovici.

20 Q. Is that the closest settlement to the Rogoj Pass?

21 A. Yes, it was, in a direct line.

22 Q. Those people who left with Zaga from your group, how long did they

23 stay?

24 A. They didn't stay long, because the distance is only 2 kilometres

25 from my village and that hamlet. They had to come back quickly because

Page 5232

1 they were needed. They later told us that Zaga and his fighters, that

2 they had left them just outside this safe place in the forest.

3 Q. What happened next? Did you stay in those positions which you

4 took up?

5 A. Yes. We stayed there, and we even stayed for quite a long time.

6 But during those days, we had nothing except the courage derived from the

7 knowledge that Zaga and his men were in front of us. We were waiting to

8 see what would happen next.

9 Q. Did you have any contact with Zaga during those days?

10 A. Not directly with Zaga. All I know is that because we had a great

11 interest involved, and I think it was on the 4th, that two people came

12 from that team we had seen before to ask for food, although we didn't have

13 any food ourselves at the time, and we gave them what we had. They kept

14 encouraging us, and they told us that people were on the ground

15 reconnoitring. They told us not to be afraid. It was incredible, all of

16 it. As I said, we gave them some food, although we were short of it

17 ourselves. But this is a very broad locality, and we had no more contact

18 with them in those days.

19 Q. When you saw Zaga on the 3rd, in the afternoon, did you know any

20 of the people who were with him?

21 A. Yes. That was a group of about seven men, that is, Zaga and six

22 of them -- that is, four of them. I knew two men from before, people from

23 Kalinovik who were with them. I knew them by sight. I know one of them

24 was called Suki, and the other one I knew only by sight and I don't know

25 his name. So there were six of them, plus Zaga, makes seven. I know one

Page 5233

1 of them was Gaga. I didn't know any of Zaga's people except for hearing

2 the name "Zaga."

3 Q. But the man named Gaga, was he there all the time?

4 A. I only heard of Gaga when they arrived to get some food. They had

5 gone in front of us and then a couple of them came back to get some food.

6 Two of them came to get the food, and this man called Gaga went

7 somewhere. He said that he was going to go somewhere.

8 Q. Was that the next day in relation to the day when they arrived?

9 A. Yes. That was on the 4th.

10 Q. When did you see Kunarac the next time?

11 A. That was the time of great uncertainty, and I saw Kunarac next on

12 the 7th, on the 7th of August. In fact, after they had carried out their

13 task.

14 Q. Was that in the afternoon?

15 A. That was towards the evening, that is, around 8.00.

16 Q. Did you talk to Kunarac at that time?

17 A. Yes, we did talk to him, such as the conversation was, but the

18 only thing that we really wanted to know was whether anybody was ever

19 going to come over and help out. And then they left.

20 Q. Did Kunarac explain to you what the enemy's intentions were?

21 A. On the 7th, in the evening, when I saw him the last time. When I

22 saw him last, the last time on the 7th, he tried to give us some

23 encouragement even though we were pretty scared. He said that he had

24 reconnoitred the terrain around us, ahead of us, and told us that the

25 Muslims had no intentions of advancing because they were digging in, but I

Page 5234

1 didn't believe much of that.

2 Q. Where did Kunarac go that evening?

3 A. That night, Kunarac and his group went in the direction of

4 Kalinovik.

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my last question, Your

6 Honours.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of

9 Mr. Kovac has no questions.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic?

11 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have any questions for this

12 witness. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination?

14 MS. KUO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

16 Q. Witness, the Rogoj Pass and Dobro Polje were both within the

17 command, the area of responsibility of the Kalinovik Command; isn't that

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that's different from the zone of responsibility of the Foca

21 Command?

22 A. At that time, I did not distinguish between various commands and

23 who was where. For me, that was the position I was defending. So it was

24 the people who were there.

25 Q. When you and the other members of the village guard received

Page 5235

1 orders, it was through Kalinovik; isn't that right?

2 A. Yes. Yes, from Kalinovik.

3 Q. Witness, you mentioned that there was a mine incident involving a

4 bridge on the 1st of May, 1992, and that one of the people from your

5 village, perhaps several of the people from your village were able to

6 demine that bridge; isn't that right?

7 A. Not from my village. These were not people from my village.

8 Those were people from the former JNA. I don't know. This was not on the

9 1st of May. It was on the 2nd of May that they came from Kalinovik,

10 because that location was part of the Kalinovik municipality.

11 Q. So these were mine experts that came to help you from Kalinovik,

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Kunarac was not among that group, was he?

15 A. No, he was not.

16 Q. You mentioned that a few days before the 2nd of August, there was

17 a flood of refugees. You said between 2.500 and 3.000 that came into

18 Dobro Polje; is that right?

19 A. Yes. Yes, from the direction. In fact, this happened when the

20 Muslim forces attacked the town of Trnovo in the Rogoj Pass. That was

21 that night.

22 Q. And you spent the night between the 1st and the 2nd of August

23 moving refugees to Kalinovik; is that right?

24 A. Yes, that night.

25 Q. On the 2nd of August, were there still many refugees in Dobro

Page 5236

1 Polje?

2 A. Yes. This process was ongoing throughout the night, the previous

3 night and the following day. So people were arriving also during daytime

4 the next day, as they managed.

5 Q. So during the day of the 2nd of August, there was still chaos and

6 panic in Dobro Polje as refugees were being moved out; is that right?

7 A. No. This is the 2nd of August. The refugees burst in on the 31st

8 when the Rogoj fell, so the next day, on the 1st. And there was also a

9 night there, and then we had the dawn of the 2nd of August. So there were

10 two nights and a day involved.

11 Q. My question is regarding the 2nd of August. Were there still

12 refugees being moved out on the 2nd of August or were they all gone by

13 then?

14 A. No. There were refugees -- there were refugees, but that they had

15 advanced. We were given a task, and I don't know what happened. Those

16 who were supposed to leave had left.

17 Q. So on the 2nd of August, you were not actually in Dobro Polje; is

18 that right? Your task was to be elsewhere?

19 A. On the 2nd of August.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. On the 2nd of August, we were in Dobro Polje. I don't know how

22 you understand Dobro Polje. It's a small place, so from each hill you

23 have an overview of what is going on.

24 Q. I may be misunderstanding you, but I thought that in your direct

25 testimony, at one point you said in the late afternoon, early evening, you

Page 5237

1 received orders to return to Dobro Polje. So where were you if you had to

2 return to Dobro Polje?

3 A. This is the 2nd of August, the day when our units had recaptured

4 or retaken Rogoj.

5 Q. Yes, it's that day.

6 A. So we were tasked -- we were given a military task to secure the

7 right flank of the troops that were going on attack.

8 Q. Did you actually go into the Rogoj Pass?

9 A. We did not go into the pass because the Muslim forces were there.

10 We took up positions to the right -- those were the orders -- in order to

11 protect the flank of the troops that were advancing on the Rogoj.

12 Q. You did not actually see Mr. Kunarac fighting in the Rogoj Pass

13 that day, did you?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. And you stated that the first time you saw him on the 2nd of

16 August was actually after the fighting had occurred, during the

17 celebration, right?

18 A. Yes. On the 2nd of August, I saw him when he returned from Rogoj

19 with the teams that came back from Rogoj after having successfully

20 completed their tasks, and they returned.

21 Q. But you did not actually see him coming from Rogoj. You only saw

22 him once he had reached Dobro Polje, right?

23 A. Yes. I saw him coming from the Rogoj Pass because there was a

24 road. That's the main road, the only way you can come down the pass.

25 Using any other alternate roads, you cannot get through the pass or into

Page 5238

1 the pass.

2 Q. How long did the celebration in Dobro Polje last?

3 A. Not long because it was getting dark already. Later a column was

4 formed because other vehicles had arrived, and they all went in the

5 direction of Kalinovik.

6 Q. When you say "not long," could you please give us an estimate of

7 how long they were there?

8 A. At the most, half an hour to an hour. I cannot recall exactly

9 because it has been eight years since this happened and those are

10 traumatic experiences. So it's not easy for me to recall them.

11 Q. So the details are very difficult for you to remember, right?

12 A. Correct. Correct as far as details are concerned, but the main

13 things --

14 Q. You stated in your testimony that it was 7.00 or 8.00 when you saw

15 Zaga; is that right?

16 A. You mean 7.00, 8.00 p.m., that is, 1900, 2000 hours?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And after the celebration, you said the column of vehicles left in

20 the direction of Kalinovik, right?

21 A. Let's try to understand each other. The operation involving Rogoj

22 went on until the afternoon, 4.00 or 5.00, in my estimate. So the

23 operation was completed around 1600, 1700 hours. The return from Rogoj

24 took about an hour, an hour and a half, up to two hours. It's 4 to

25 5 kilometres of road to climb down from. So that could have then been

Page 5239

1 6.00 to 7.00 or 1800, 1900 hours. Then they left us maybe within an hour,

2 so that would have been approximately 2000.

3 Q. Dobro Polje is precisely at the crossroad where the road from

4 Sarajevo breaks off, one to go toward Foca and the other branch to go

5 toward Kalinovik, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when the column left, they took the road toward Kalinovik,

8 right?

9 A. Yes, because there was no other road that they could use.

10 Q. There was the road going toward Foca, wasn't there?

11 A. Yes, but all the developments and all the combat was alongside the

12 road. So the road going from Dobro Polje to Foca, there were skirmishes

13 in Osija and other villages, and the road was not safe. So nobody used

14 it.

15 Q. So in order to get from Dobro Polje to Foca, you're saying you

16 would go toward Kalinovik first and then toward Foca?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that road was not dangerous, was it?

19 A. My apologies. Not to Kalinovik. You asked me whether -- if going

20 from Dobro Polje to Foca you had to go to Kalinovik in order to get to

21 Foca, but I say that in order -- from Dobro Polje to go to Foca, 4 or

22 5 kilometres before Kalinovik there was a turn-off where you went to Foca,

23 and that was the only safe road to Foca.

24 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have

25 this witness shown Prosecution Exhibit 20. The usher can use the copy I

Page 5240

1 have right here.

2 Q. Witness, could you show us where Dobro Polje is? You have to

3 indicate on the ELMO rather than the computer screen.

4 A. I cannot orient myself well on the map but I'll try.

5 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 1.00 and perhaps the witness could

6 take a few minutes during the break to --

7 A. Dobro Polje. I managed. I have problems with my headset.

8 MS. KUO:

9 Q. Thank you. Now, the larger red line that goes is the one that

10 goes to Foca -- is the road that goes to Foca, right?

11 A. Yes. This red line is the main road. That's the main road.

12 Q. And that's the road that you said was too dangerous?

13 A. Segment of the road. Yes, that one. This one, the canyon of

14 Bistrica River between Dobro Poje and Miljevina. That was the dangerous

15 part.

16 Q. And the lighter, thinner red line that goes south is the one that

17 goes towards Kalinovik; right?

18 A. Yes, the thinner one.

19 Q. And you said that in order to connect up, to go toward Foca, you

20 don't actually have to go all the way to Kalinovik, that there is a

21 turn-off before that. Is that right?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. Is that shown on the map?

24 A. Yes, you can see it on the map. Before that circle which marks

25 Kalinovik, there is a village of Jelasca, and there is a very thin red

Page 5241

1 line through Jelasca. You see this line? That's that road.

2 Q. And when the thin line meets up with the thicker red line then

3 it's safe to continue south, right?

4 A. Yes. At that time it wasn't safe anywhere but that was the road

5 that was used.

6 Q. And that thin red line that you've pointed out to us goes towards

7 Miljevina as well, right?

8 A. Yes. Yes. It meets the road coming from Dobro Polje.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's 1.00.

10 MS. KUO: May I ask one more question? Then we're done with the

11 map.

12 Q. That road was good enough for a truck to go on; is that right?

13 A. It was a forest road. I never used it, so I don't know, but it

14 was used for traffic, yes.

15 MS. KUO: Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll break off for now and continue this afternoon

17 at 1430 hours.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.04 p.m.








Page 5242












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 5243


2 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness. We continue with

4 cross-examination by the Prosecution.

5 MS. KUO:

6 Q. Witness, you've told us that by early August, Zaga was a legend in

7 the war for his courage and ability; is that right?

8 A. Well, that was the story that went around.

9 Q. And when he arrived in Dobro Polje on 3rd of August with his five

10 men, you were glad to see him, weren't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He was the leader of those men, wasn't he?

13 A. A leader? Well, I don't know because I didn't even know them

14 then. Whether he was the leader, I couldn't say.

15 Q. He was the person that you understood had the most courage and the

16 most ability, right? You've just told us that.

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. So it would be natural for some person like that to lead a group,

19 correct?

20 A. Well, yes, it would be natural, but I'm not competent to say

21 whether he was the leader or not. I do not want to offend the others who

22 were with him.

23 Q. The job of these men was to find out what was happening with the

24 enemy after they had captured the Rogoj Pass, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5244

1 Q. So after you saw them on the 3rd of August until you saw them

2 again, you don't know -- you didn't see them for several days, right?

3 A. Well, I saw the two who came to fetch food on the following day.

4 Q. Very well. You did not see Zaga during that time, did you? Is

5 that correct, you did not see Zaga?

6 A. Well, I saw him when leaving to carry out his assignment, and I

7 didn't see him after that.

8 Q. The next time you saw Zaga after the 3rd of August, you've

9 testified here today, was the 7th of August, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You spoke with Defence investigators before you came in here

12 today, and you told them that it was the 8th of August; isn't that right?

13 A. It's possible. It's possible I said that, but it's been eight

14 years since then and the statement I made, it was done so quickly, so

15 spontaneously, I couldn't be so exact. Now I am better prepared because

16 I'm more prepared. It's possible that I made an error, but it was the

17 7th.

18 Q. Today you're absolutely sure it was the 7th, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, during the time between the 3rd and the 7th of August when

21 you did not see Zaga, you said two of his men would come every so often to

22 ask for food, right?

23 A. Well, not every so often but on the following day, because that

24 was the agreement, that we should help them with food. And the two of

25 them came to a certain place where we had a position, a shelter.

Page 5245

1 Q. In fact, on the very next day as well, Gaga left the group; isn't

2 that correct?

3 A. As far as I know -- I don't know what happened with Zaga. I know

4 that that team was in front of us. It's a broad area, a very broad line

5 that had to be investigated, and where he moved, I really couldn't say.

6 Q. I'm sorry. Perhaps I didn't pronounce it correctly. I meant

7 Gaga, not Zaga. One of Zaga's men was named Gaga. He left the next day,

8 right?

9 A. Yes. That's correct.

10 Q. He left for a personal reason, not for a military reason, right?

11 A. Yes, yes. Yes. At least that's what he told us, that he was

12 having problems in Montenegro. At that time, I didn't even know who he

13 was. I just knew that his nickname was Gaga.

14 Q. During this time, Mr. Kunarac was your only source of information

15 on the enemy, right? That was the purpose for him being there?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. You and your fellow villagers in Dobro Polje were very concerned

18 about what might happen to you, right?

19 A. Well, there were no villagers there any more, just the group that

20 was with me, because all the civilian population, they had all left us;

21 and the closest free place was Kalinovik, which was 20 kilometres away,

22 and we were left there in uncertainty.

23 Q. And you were uncertain whether the enemy would attack you, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When Mr. Kunarac showed up finally on the 7th of August and he

Page 5246

1 told you that he had reconnoitred the terrain and that the Muslims had no

2 intention of attacking, you didn't believe him, did you?

3 A. At that time, I did not trust myself, let alone Kunarac. All that

4 mattered to us was that there was someone ahead of us, in front of us.

5 Simply, there was no way to defend ourselves. Firstly, because there were

6 so few of us, and secondly, we were so traumatised by the preceding

7 events.

8 Q. So when he told you this, did you not trust him, did you?

9 A. Well, I can say that we did trust him, but subconsciously we were

10 worried. We were concerned about what would happen next.

11 Q. After he reassured you that the Muslims were not going to attack,

12 you did not rest assured that, in fact, the Muslims were not going to

13 attack; isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct. We were sceptical.

15 MS. KUO: No further questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination, Mr. Prodanovic?

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have just one question with

18 your permission, Your Honour.

19 Re-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

20 Q. You said that from the 3rd, you were at your position. Can you

21 explain to us the location where you were? Was it beside the road, and

22 could you see the road well?

23 A. The point where we were, eight to ten of us, I don't know who was

24 absent when, was exactly 100 metres up a cliff overlooking my village.

25 There was a natural cave there, and my grandfather had hidden there during

Page 5247

1 World War II. And since I had been born there, I knew the place, and I

2 knew that it was a dominant place from which we could have a view of

3 everything that was going on in the valley in which my village was.

4 Q. Could anyone have passed along the road without you seeing him

5 from that cliff?

6 A. No, no one could have passed by. Everything that happened we

7 could observe from up there because it's a cliff. It's an elevation, and

8 you can even see the Rogoj Pass, the surface of the Rogoj Pass, and you

9 can see further on towards Foca.

10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions,

11 Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I have no

14 questions.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic?

16 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We do not have any

17 questions for this witness. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you witness for giving evidence to the

19 Tribunal. You are free. You may leave the witness box.

20 WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, the Trial Chamber was informed that

23 we have a mix-up with witnesses. Can you explain, please? Or do we have

24 another witness?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 5248












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Page 5249

1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a mix-up,

2 but it was not due to our negligence. We expected three witnesses to

3 arrive today, and all three of them arrived at the airport. We have proof

4 of the fact that this is what we told the Victims and Witnesses Unit. But

5 at the airport, the official who is supposed to meet the witnesses said

6 that the ticket was issued on another name, not the name of the witness.

7 It was impossible to replace the ticket, and the witness had to go back.

8 So we have proof, Ms. Lopicic has proof, that we did advise the

9 registry which witnesses were supposed to arrive. And we really regret

10 this because it's in our interests for the witnesses to come. And the

11 witness was supposed to arrive today who was due to come on Friday, I

12 think.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So do we have witnesses for Wednesday and

14 Thursday? Should we expect witnesses?

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I know at

16 this moment, three witnesses have set out, so we will have witnesses on

17 Wednesday. And according to our plans, we expect that we shall complete

18 our examination of those three witnesses on that day. It all depends on

19 how many questions the Prosecution will have. So we may go on until

20 Thursday, but we will finish those three witnesses.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: From the list, the other three are not coming.

22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not for now. Not at this

23 moment, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Because we were wondering that maybe they

25 wanted some protective measures. Maybe you can deal with that in the

Page 5250

1 meantime so that where possible, besides those who will come for Wednesday

2 and Thursday, if others are retracting -- for instance, we have

3 experienced these problems with witnesses sometimes. After what the

4 others have been broadcast, the others develop cold feet.

5 So it's a matter where you have to review the status of your

6 witnesses from time to time, and if there is need for protective measures,

7 you discuss with the Prosecution, of course, and the Trial Chamber will

8 look at what the problems is, because we would have liked to move as fast

9 as possible so that we complete hearing all Defence, the whole Defence

10 case before the end of September, but it looks like at this pace, it may

11 not be possible, and that's not good because we are holding other trials,

12 as you know.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: We are trying to find out about the videotapes,

15 these pictures of Karadzic and Kornjaca. Have you completed your

16 discussions between the parties?

17 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, following the Trial

19 Chamber's instructions, we had a meeting with our learned friends from the

20 Prosecution, and we viewed the videos, and we have agreed about some

21 things but not about others.

22 The main problem that arose, and the Defence is aware of it, is

23 that on the videotapes which we presented there are cuts. According to

24 the opinion of the Defence, however, the fact that there is a cut does not

25 prove that something has been omitted from the speech, added to it, or

Page 5251

1 that the tape has been manipulated in any way.

2 The explanation is the following: As you can see from the

3 videotapes themselves, they were all filmed with home video cameras, and

4 there were no TV crews or some official institutions taking videos in

5 1990. People were making videos for themselves. There is no single frame

6 in which we see someone coming to up the rostrum, making a speech, and

7 leaving. The person is there but there are cuts. It would be of great

8 assistance to all of us if we could somehow have a tape covering the whole

9 speech without any interruptions.

10 The Defence, however, can only present what it has available,

11 unfortunately. It would help us a great deal if our colleagues from the

12 OTP could get hold of the original videos where there are no cuts. We did

13 try, but Defence has no way of obtaining such a tape. That is the first

14 point.

15 Secondly, we wish to draw attention to two circumstances. Today

16 we saw what can happen and what does happen because of the language

17 barrier, questions of translation, the meaning of a word or a sentence,

18 and so on. What we see, we who know the language, while viewing the

19 video, it is a thought that has been cut, because you can see that the

20 tape was taken first from one side of the speaker, then from the other.

21 Over the weekend I managed to obtain information that there are

22 technical possibilities which can help us establish not only whether there

23 is a cut or not but, according to some technical parameters, it's possible

24 to establish how long the interruption was between the two parts. Another

25 issue, however, which the Defence cannot solve, is that we do not have

Page 5252

1 such equipment available and there is no way we can obtain such

2 equipment.

3 What we did agree about with the Prosecution is that the

4 translation given to us by our learned friends of the videotapes, the two

5 speakers, is acceptable to us, and we have agreed with our learned friends

6 that if we tender this into evidence, bearing in mind all the

7 circumstances I have just put forward before the Trial Chamber, we agree

8 that the translation should be the translation done by our learned friends

9 from the Prosecution.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The translation of what?

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The translation of the speeches of

12 Mr. Kornjaca and Mr. Karadzic, because there were some misunderstandings

13 about this. This translation into English is correct, and we have no

14 objection to it. We would like to note, however, that our learned friends

15 have marked the places where there are cuts, which we have not done in our

16 translation, so we believe that their translation is more precise.

17 JUDGE HUNT: What you are seeking to prove with these tapes is

18 that something was not said. That's so, is it not?

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, whether there are cuts or whether there

21 are just simply omissions where there was nothing being taken, how can you

22 prove that something was not said by showing a video of only part of

23 everything which was said?

24 I'll say that again in case I messed it up. You are seeking to

25 prove that these speakers did not make certain statements. You produce a

Page 5253

1 videotape which, as I understand it, will not show them saying those

2 things, but the videotapes are not complete. Now, whether there have been

3 deliberate cuts or whether the person taking them simply got tired of

4 taking them and went and stood in another place to get a different view,

5 it doesn't matter. If they're not complete videotapes, how can you prove

6 that these statements were not made by those speakers at this meeting?

7 That's the problem I'm having with it.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's the same problem

9 that the Defence faces. Besides the proposal --

10 JUDGE HUNT: You're seeking to prove it, you see, so you've got to

11 demonstrate how it does prove what you say it proves. That's the problem

12 I'm having with it.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the other point is, from what you have

14 said, these recordings were done -- you can't hear me? You're finished?

15 Yes.

16 The other point is, these recordings were done by private persons

17 who happened to be at the rally, out of their own will, and they recorded

18 what they wanted to record.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall respond to

20 you first. The recordings that we received, and we're talking about two

21 recordings, one of Mr. Kornjaca's speech and the other of Mr. Karadzic,

22 the recording of Mr. Karadzic's was received much earlier, before this

23 trial began, and the speech of Mr. Kornjaca was received after the

24 questioning of some witnesses before this Chamber.

25 All these tapes, as any other tapes which are available, were

Page 5254

1 received from the SDA and SDS. We asked those parties for the tapes and

2 they gave them to us. That is the way we obtained the tapes.

3 As for the other question, how the Defence intends to prove what

4 it set out to prove, is the following: We believe that certain equipment

5 could help us resolve one problem. The second problem is linguistic, but

6 this could take us very far. When we who know the language listen to this

7 speech, we see that it is an uninterrupted thought. Perhaps a couple of

8 words may be missing at points, but it is a complete thought.

9 It is hard to presume that following a certain thread, a speaker

10 could make a non-sequitur, which was presumably cut out, and then come

11 back to the original thought.

12 So the Defence believes there are two ways in which this matter

13 could be cleared, clarified. The linguistic issue is something that can

14 be clarified by professors who could deliver speeches on semantics, and

15 that would take too much time, but, on the other hand, the technical

16 method could be the easier one.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Maybe we can hear -- are you through?

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we could hear from the Prosecution.

20 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps I can propose a solution to

21 this, having come this far in the analysis of the videotapes. Indeed

22 there are cuts in the videotapes and it's not clear to us whether they are

23 significant long cuts or short cuts, as the Defence contends.

24 At this point, the Prosecution would have no objection to the

25 videotapes as well as the translations being entered in evidence for the

Page 5255

1 Court to decide whether these, after viewing the videotapes -- and we've

2 marked very precisely where the cuts occur -- whether they're significant

3 or not. But indeed if you read the transcript, it should become clear

4 that the portion the witness is discussing is in fact present. Perhaps

5 not in the exact words the witness described in Karadzic's speech, and we

6 can point that out to you on the transcript.

7 The second point is having reviewed what the witness number 31,

8 who is the one who makes reference to Kornjaca, and Mr. Avdic, who is the

9 person who makes reference to Karadzic, what they've said in their

10 testimony, it becomes clear that whatever portions may or may not be

11 missing are really irrelevant because Witness 33 says she was not present

12 but she had heard from other people about this. So there's that. And

13 then Mr. Avdic says the portion he quotes or paraphrases Mr. Karadzic

14 saying is -- he said, "There could be no life in common with the

15 Muslims," and according to our translation, he says, "Every citizen of

16 Yugoslavia has become accustomed and used to the idea that coexistence is

17 no longer possible."

18 So its really a matter for interpretation, and if those are the

19 purposes to which this is being put, of course we think they can be put in

20 and the Court can consider it.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Trial Chamber has decided after hearing

23 both parties that the tapes and the transcripts and translation will be

24 admitted, but the Trial Chamber will decide how much weight to attach to

25 them. And we are not going to sit here and view them; we'll view them

Page 5256

1 during our own time.

2 So can we have them, please, so that we can have them numbered,

3 the tapes and the transcripts and translations. So they are being

4 admitted into evidence.

5 Yes, can counsel who have them please bring them out so we are

6 clear as to what we are receiving?

7 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, can you tell us the first one, what is it and

8 the transcript, and the second one, what it is and the transcript, so that

9 they can be properly marked?

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In the first

11 case, we have a tape containing the speech of Mr. Kornjaca, that is our

12 tape, and the translation belongs to the Prosecutor's Office, was provided

13 by the Prosecutor's Office. It is marked D7, and I think the registrar is

14 now just looking at that tape.

15 The second tape is ours as well, and the translation was provided

16 by the Prosecutor's Office, and the recording is of the speech of

17 Mr. Karadzic.

18 I'm sorry, Your Honour, just give me a minute, please.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And we would like to have dates when these

20 speeches are said to have been presented, not recorded, but presented.

21 When the rallies were held at which these speeches were recorded, the

22 dates please.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all these recordings

24 were made at one rally held on the 1st of September, 1990. It was the

25 rally of the SDS party, the democratic -- sorry, the Serbian Democratic

Page 5257

1 Party in Foca.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

3 Can we have the numbers, Madam Registrar, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The number for the videotape is D143, and

5 for the translation is D143/A.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Which videotape recording which speech?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Entitled "Dr. Kornjaca," and dated 1st of

8 September, 1990.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: And the next one?

10 THE REGISTRAR: The next one will be D144 for the videotape, and

11 for the translation is D144/A. The date also is 1st of September, 1990.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: The speech of?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Speech of Dr. Karadzic.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

15 Yes, the Prosecution?

16 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I just wanted to point out to the Court

17 that the portion that I quoted from Dr. Karadzic's speech is on 144/A at

18 the very bottom of the page, the last three lines.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, yes.

20 MS. KUO: While we're discussing videotapes, I wanted first to

21 perhaps clarify with the Court that when the Defence wishes to offer

22 videotapes, whether or not it's their responsibility to have a translation

23 prepared.

24 In this case, we did not have a translation at the time that the

25 videotapes were being discussed in Court, and we had to have our

Page 5258

1 translators prepare a translation, and we wonder whether, since it's the

2 Defence that's offering this evidence, they should be asked to provide

3 that translation in the first instance.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You mean theirs, or for them to obtain a translation

5 from the Tribunal's translators?

6 MS. KUO: It would be preferable to get it from the Tribunal's

7 translators. If that's not possible for whatever reason, having perhaps a

8 draft translation would certainly help our OTP translators and certainly

9 help us have some idea what the videotapes are about, because when we

10 receive them, of course without a transcript and it's in B/C/S, it's very

11 difficult for us to know, as was apparent last week in Court, what exactly

12 they're talking about.

13 So in the interests of expediting these proceedings in the future,

14 I just wanted to have that area of responsibility clarified.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. But for this translation, it is an

16 agreed one between the parties, that's what is important.

17 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, for this matter, correct. But there

18 were other videotapes, and I wonder what will happen in the future.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Mr. Jovanovic?

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Our colleagues from the

21 Prosecution Office are right concerning translations, but as far as this

22 matter is concerned, we did not prepare a translation in due time, but I

23 promise that in the future we will not burden our learned friends from the

24 Prosecution with this again.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it is important that when the Defence wants to

Page 5259

1 have anything used in the trial, they should arrange with the official

2 translators of the Tribunal to have the translations done in good time for

3 the trial.

4 Any other matters? Yes?

5 MS. KUO: One final matter regarding videotapes, and it does not

6 pertain to this videotape but also last week, or perhaps it was the week

7 before, the Defence had offered segments of a videotape in which a

8 commander was listing different commanders, and at the very end I believe

9 this Court ordered that the entire tape be translated.

10 The Prosecution has gone through its exhibits, and in fact we have

11 tendered this as Prosecution exhibit number 29. So for the Court's

12 convenience, it is there, and that would encompass the Defence Exhibits

13 D90, which is what they numbered the video segment, D90/1, which was an

14 English translation of part of that videotape, and D90/2, which is an

15 English translation of another part, and both of those are contained in

16 Prosecution's Exhibit 29 -- I'm sorry, 29/1. 29 is the videotape, 29/1 is

17 the transcript in English.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you for that explanation.

19 Any other matters? Nothing?

20 We have come to the end of our proceedings today. The trial will

21 continue on Wednesday at 0930 hours. We hope that we shall have witnesses

22 that day. The Court will rise.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.12 p.m., to

24 be reconvened on Wednesday the 26th day of July,

25 2000, at 9.30 a.m.