Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5260

1 Wednesday, 26 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. This morning we are sitting without

10 Judge Pocar due to urgent personal reasons. He is unable to sit with us.

11 We are proceeding under Rule 15 bis (A).

12 Good morning, Witness. Please make your solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare

14 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The Defence, examination-in-chief.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning.

21 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

22 Q. Witness, good morning.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. I would like to ask you to speak slowly during your examination

25 because the interpreters have to interpret my questions and your answers.

Page 5261

1 A. I'll try.

2 Q. Very well. First of all, would you introduce yourself to the

3 Tribunal and to us?

4 A. My name is Radosav Djurovic.

5 Q. Where were you born?

6 A. I was born in Foca in 1957.

7 Q. And what is your occupation?

8 A. I'm an administrator in a state-owned company called Tehnokom, and

9 I am an accountant.

10 Q. At the time the armed conflict broke out in Foca, where were you

11 living?

12 A. I was living in Foca.

13 Q. Can you tell us when the armed conflict in Foca broke out?

14 A. The armed conflict in Foca broke out on the 8th of April, 1992.

15 Q. Would you tell us in what part of town you lived?

16 A. I lived in the centre of Foca, in the actual centre of town.

17 Q. Were you living in a residential building or a house?

18 A. I lived in a flat in a residential building, with my family.

19 Q. And the building in which you lived, the flat which was in the

20 block of flats where you lived with your family, how many flats were there

21 and what was the ethnic make-up of the tenants?

22 A. The building in which I live has 25 flats, and as for the ethnic

23 make-up of the tenants, it's about 50/50, half are Muslims and half are

24 Serbs.

25 Q. At the time the armed conflict broke out, where were you?

Page 5262

1 A. I was at home in my flat in this building.

2 Q. How did you and the other tenants organise your lives from the

3 moment the armed conflict broke out in Foca?

4 A. Well, when the armed conflict broke out in Foca, all the tenants

5 who were there agreed that no one was to leave the building. We would all

6 stay there and help each other regardless of whether we were Serbs or

7 Muslims, and that's what happened. We were all there together.

8 Q. How long did you defend your building organised in this way?

9 A. Well, it lasted for about ten days.

10 Q. As far as I understand you, after those ten days, the armed

11 conflict stopped.

12 A. Yes. Ten days later, the armed conflict ceased.

13 Q. How did you learn that the conflict was over?

14 A. Well, we listened to Radio Foca throughout this time, and Radio

15 Foca announced that Serbian forces had entered Foca, that the working

16 population can go back to work the following morning.

17 Q. And did you go back to work?

18 A. No, I didn't go back to work.

19 Q. Will you tell us the reason you didn't go back to work?

20 A. Well, the reason was that after Radio Foca announced this, on the

21 following morning they made another announcement inviting all

22 military-aged men to report to the Territorial Defence staff, which was in

23 the centre of town in the SUP building, because the Muslim-armed units had

24 gone out of buildings and -- had gone out of the town and surrounded the

25 town of Foca and all the communications were blocked, and their armed

Page 5263

1 forces were facing the town.

2 Q. Did you respond to this call?

3 A. Yes, I did. I even received a written call-up note.

4 Q. After you received this, where did you report?

5 A. I reported to the Ministry of the Territorial Defence where they

6 sent me to the Livade depot, which is where the warehouses of the

7 Territorial Defence of Foca were located, and weapons and equipment were

8 stored there.

9 Q. As far as I understand, you were issued with equipment.

10 A. Yes, I was issued with equipment and weapons, and then I went to

11 report to Velecevo, according to the note I received.

12 Q. And when you reported to Velecevo, were you assigned somewhere?

13 A. Yes. I was given an assignment and I reported to my unit.

14 Q. And where were you assigned? To what job?

15 A. Well, that was the quartermaster unit which supplies the army with

16 food and clothing.

17 Q. After you were assigned to the post of quartermaster, so to say,

18 and you told us what your assignment was, were you personally issued with

19 a vehicle?

20 A. No. No. No one was personally issued with a vehicle, but because

21 the job of the quartermaster unit was to supply the army to distribute

22 food, to bring it in, we were assigned a car which was requisitioned from

23 a business in Foca.

24 Q. So as far as I was able to understand, the command of the

25 Territorial Defence was there and that's where you were given your

Page 5264

1 military assignment, and you spent your time there.

2 A. Yes. Yes. The command of the Territorial Defence was there.

3 Later on, it grew into the Foca Tactical Group. On the 28th of June,

4 1992, it was named the Foca Brigade and that was the date on which the

5 army of Republika Srpska was formed, and I was in my unit throughout this

6 time.

7 Q. So as far as I was able to understand, you remained in the

8 quartermaster unit within the scope of the Foca Brigade.

9 A. Yes. Yes. I continued doing my job, and that was supplying the

10 army with food.

11 Q. Do you know the Kunarac family?

12 A. I knew his brother Boban, who lived in the town. I knew him by

13 sight, and I heard that he had another brother who did not live in Foca.

14 Q. As far as I understand, you do not know Dragoljub Kunarac

15 personally.

16 A. Yes. I didn't know him then.

17 Q. And when did you meet him?

18 A. Well, I got to know Dragoljub Kunarac in late June 1992.

19 Q. Where did you meet him?

20 A. I met him at Velecevo when he arrived there with two soldiers, and

21 he came to my depot and asked for four or five tins of food because he was

22 going on an action. I gave him that, and when they said thank you, first

23 he introduced himself, then they thanked me, and then I saw him and the

24 other two soldiers, and they had a Montenegrin accent.

25 Q. In the following period during your stay at Velecevo, did you see

Page 5265

1 Kunarac again?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How often did you see him?

4 A. Well, it depends. Sometimes I would see him two or three times in

5 a single day, and sometimes 10, 15, 20 days would go by without my seeing

6 him.

7 Q. Do you know what kind of assignments Dragoljub Kunarac performed

8 as a soldier?

9 A. Well, they said he was the only reconnaissance man, that he was

10 from the engineers, and those are people who, during military operations,

11 are given the most responsible tasks on the front lines. They discover

12 the numbers of the enemy forces, they remove minefields. That's what it

13 was.

14 Q. Did you know when he went to perform these tasks, did he go on his

15 own?

16 A. Well, on the day I gave him food, I saw that he was going with a

17 group of soldiers because he arrived with two men, and he took four or

18 five meals with him.

19 Q. Did you know that he had a permanent reconnaissance unit?

20 A. No. A reconnaissance unit figured nowhere on the documents where

21 food was asked for, because we were always given papers asking for food

22 for a certain number of soldiers, but that unit was never mentioned

23 there.

24 Q. When Dragoljub Kunarac went to reconnoitre, as far as you know,

25 how much food did he ask for for his reconnoitring task?

Page 5266

1 A. Well, it was for a group of men, a group of men.

2 Q. Can you tell us, if you remember, how many men?

3 A. Well, according to what they said and what I remember, it was four

4 or five men.

5 Q. You have told us that you saw Kunarac at the end of June.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That perhaps you saw him again from time to time. Can you tell

8 us, after the 28th of June, when you said the brigade was set up and you

9 saw him after that date, can you tell us when you saw him again?

10 A. Yes. Well, I saw him about ten days later. He was passing by.

11 He was going to the command. And I saw him on the 2nd of August, 1992.

12 Q. How do you remember that it was precisely the 2nd of August,

13 1992?

14 A. Well, the 2nd of August sticks in my memory. First of all, it's

15 my wedding anniversary; secondly, that is a big Muslim and Serbian

16 holiday; and thirdly, on that day I was given the task of taking some food

17 and cigarettes in the direction of the Rogoj Pass where, on the previous

18 day, the Muslim forces had taken that strategic point which was important

19 to both sides, and on that day, some members of the Foca Brigade went to

20 help the Kalinovik Brigade to retake that strategically important spot.

21 Q. How did you go there and with whom?

22 A. Well, I went there by car, it was a Golf, with Nenad Radovic.

23 Q. When did you set out?

24 A. We set out from Foca at about 1400 hours.

25 Q. And when did you arrive?

Page 5267

1 A. Well, we arrived in Dobro Polje at about 1600 hours.

2 Q. When you arrived there, you said it was around 1600 hours. What

3 did you find there? Who did you find there?

4 A. Dobro Polje is a small place at the intersection of Foca-Sarajevo

5 highway and the turnoff to Kalinovik. There we came to a coffee bar. We

6 found some older men there. We asked them about -- we queried them and we

7 could hear sporadic fire coming from the area of Rogoj.

8 Q. How long did you listen to that sporadic fire and when did it

9 stop?

10 A. It never stopped. It went on for a while. Around 1700 hours, the

11 first soldiers started arriving from the area of Rogoj to Dobro Polje, and

12 they brought with them news that Rogoj was in our hands, that is, in the

13 Serbian hands.

14 Q. Did you know any of these soldiers, those fighters who had come

15 and brought that news?

16 A. Yes. I knew some of them, and I met with Aco Krnojelac, he is a

17 school friend of mine. I gave him a few cigarettes. He told me that

18 Rogoj had fallen.

19 Q. When you were in Dobro Polje, did you also see Dragoljub Kunarac

20 there?

21 A. Yes. Awhile later, sometime around 1800 hours, Dragoljub Kunarac

22 came in a truck from the direction of Rogoj. It was a Dais truck with an

23 anti-aircraft gun, which Dragoljub Kunarac had captured, and he had

24 brought there and parked it in front of that coffee bar in Dobro Polje

25 where we were staying.

Page 5268

1 Q. Was anybody else there with Dragoljub Kunarac?

2 A. Yes. There were about five or six men on the truck.

3 Q. And where was Dragoljub Kunarac?

4 A. On the truck, at the gun.

5 Q. Did Dragoljub Kunarac stay there?

6 A. He had to stay there because there was a small celebration and he

7 had just brought a trophy of sorts. He had captured a valuable piece of

8 weaponry. We celebrated, and we stayed there awhile.

9 Q. How long did you stay there?

10 A. As the soldiers kept coming and we gave them cigarettes, we

11 congratulated them, we stayed there until about 1900, 1930 hours.

12 Q. You said that you stayed there until about 1930 hours. Did you

13 then go somewhere after that?

14 A. After we left the cigarettes and tinned food for the soldiers who

15 were there to man the positions, we turned around and went back to Foca.

16 We were led by that captured truck and Dragoljub Kunarac.

17 Q. You said that you were in a column. Who was at the head of the

18 column?

19 A. It was this captured Dais and Dragoljub Kunarac.

20 Q. When you started out, was he there on the truck or somewhere else?

21 A. No, he was on the truck.

22 Q. You said that you started in the direction of Foca. In which part

23 of town did you go when you started out? Where were you supposed to --

24 what was to be your destination?

25 A. We were moving in a column, and the destination was Velecevo.

Page 5269

1 Q. When did you arrive at the Velecevo command post in terms of

2 time? Can you place it in time?

3 A. We arrived between 2130 and 2200 hours.

4 Q. Who first entered the command?

5 A. You mean the compound?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. We arrived at the gate and we were met by several soldiers. There

8 were some ovations and celebration. At the head of the column, as I said,

9 was our captured truck, and Mr. Zaga shot several rounds from that

10 captured gun. Then we went to the parking lot. There is a large parking

11 lot in the Velecevo compound that used to be a female correctional centre,

12 so it was fenced in. And we all parked our vehicles there in the parking

13 lot and left them there.

14 Q. When you parked your vehicles, did you stay there?

15 A. We were there by our vehicles. There were more congratulations.

16 Then we went into a building and there was a little celebration and more

17 congratulations.

18 Q. Was Kunarac also with you?

19 A. Yes, he was there, because after all, he was the one who had

20 brought in this trophy, and he received most of the congratulations.

21 Q. How late did you stay there?

22 A. I was there -- I went to bed around midnight. I was there at

23 11.00, then I left, came back a little bit, and around midnight I went to

24 sleep.

25 Q. Did you again see Kunarac around there?

Page 5270

1 A. Yes. Yes. I saw him in the morning at breakfast. When I got up

2 and went to breakfast I saw him there, because a number of us spent the

3 night there and then came to breakfast.

4 Q. What time was that?

5 A. 7.00 in the morning.

6 Q. On the 3rd, in the morning, when he came to breakfast, did Kunarac

7 stay there or did he leave?

8 A. I cannot remember seeing him after the breakfast. I went about my

9 business.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no further

11 questions.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no questions.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Lopicic.

15 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have any questions for this

16 witness. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

18 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

20 Q. Mr. Djurovic, the military compound at Velecevo was not a

21 barracks, was it?

22 A. No. As I said, that was the premises of the former female

23 correctional centre.

24 Q. The only people who stayed there overnight were the ones who were

25 stationed to work at Velecevo, people such as yourself, right?

Page 5271

1 A. Yes. People who worked there and people who would come to the

2 command post and then would spend the night there also.

3 Q. All the other soldiers stayed in houses and flats in Foca, right?

4 A. I didn't understand. What other soldiers?

5 Q. Not all the soldiers who were fighting during that time spent

6 evenings, spent nights in Velecevo, right? They lived in other places in

7 Foca.

8 A. Listen, in the war, everybody has their assignments, and people at

9 Velecevo had their days off which they used to be at home, but everybody

10 knew their assignment at the time.

11 Q. Let me ask it this way: There was not enough room at Velecevo for

12 all the soldiers to stay at night, right?

13 A. There was no need for all the soldiers to stay at Velecevo because

14 that was only a part of the units was stationed at Velecevo.

15 Q. How many people stayed, slept on a regular basis at Velecevo?

16 A. I wasn't in charge of accommodations, so I really wouldn't know.

17 Q. But you stayed there on a regular basis yourself, didn't you?

18 A. Yes, except when I had days off, and that's when I went home.

19 Q. And when you were staying at Velecevo, how many other people were

20 there with you at night?

21 A. It depended on their assignments, whether they were out in the

22 field or whether they were staying inside the barracks.

23 Q. Could you please give us an approximate number? There was about

24 30 or 40, right?

25 A. Sometimes 30, 40, sometimes perhaps even 50. It depended on the

Page 5272

1 assignments and combat operations.

2 Q. Now, Dragoljub Kunarac, Zaga, did not stay at Velecevo on a

3 regular basis at night, right? That was not his assignment.

4 A. I don't know who gave him assignments, what assignments, but there

5 were days when I would see him there two or three times a day at Velecevo,

6 and there were nights when I saw him staying over, and there would be 15,

7 20 days when I absolutely did not see him.

8 Q. When you were bringing food and supplies and things like that, you

9 said that you had an assigned vehicle, right?

10 A. Yes. Yes. There was a vehicle assigned to the unit to which I

11 belonged because there was a need for the food to be hauled in because

12 this is where the food was prepared for the soldiers. So we used that

13 vehicle to transport the food.

14 Q. And you described this vehicle as being a requisitioned vehicle

15 from a company. So it was a civilian vehicle that was being used by your

16 unit, right?

17 A. Yes. Yes. You're absolutely right. That was a civilian vehicle

18 which at the beginning -- the state companies used to have vehicles before

19 the war, so when the war broke out, they gave them for the use of the

20 military.

21 Q. That was not the only vehicle that could be used by the military

22 people at Velecevo, right, there were other vehicles?

23 A. Yes. I'm only referring to the unit to which I belonged, that is,

24 the quartermaster's unit, which was tasked with supplying the military

25 with -- the units with the food and the clothing.

Page 5273

1 Q. Among the other vehicles that were available for use was a red

2 Lada, right?

3 A. I used to see it.

4 Q. And Dragoljub Kunarac had access to this car as well as -- had

5 access to this car, right? He could use it?

6 A. I don't see the reason why he would have access to that car

7 because every vehicle had its own assigned driver.

8 Q. You mentioned earlier that people were not assigned to vehicles

9 and now you're saying they were?

10 A. Not people. Units were given vehicles. If we're talking about my

11 unit, my unit got the civilian vehicle, and it was at our disposal.

12 Q. You said earlier that no one was personally issued a vehicle, and

13 now you're saying that vehicles had specific drivers? Is that what you're

14 saying?

15 A. No, no, no. You did not understand me quite well. The vehicle

16 did have a driver, but it was the command structure that controlled the

17 vehicle, and the driver drove it as ordered.

18 Q. Who was assigned to the red Niva then -- sorry, the red Lada? Who

19 was the driver?

20 A. I don't know, because I had nothing to do with the vehicle pool.

21 People changed, so I don't know.

22 Q. In order to facilitate the use of these vehicles, there was a

23 repair facility on the compound at Velecevo, wasn't there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Right on the premises itself?

Page 5274

1 A. Yes. Within the compound of this women's prison.

2 Q. You also had available for use communications devices such as

3 radios and telephones, right?

4 A. We had a radio transmitter, but we could not all get telephones.

5 Only the top commanders had it.

6 Q. So when you were travelling around delivering supplies, you were

7 in radio communication with headquarters, right?

8 A. No. We didn't understand each other well. I would receive orders

9 to bring in certain supplies and that was the only communication I would

10 get.

11 Q. When you were delivering, you didn't bring a radio with you to

12 receive further instructions from headquarters?

13 A. No. No. We did not have a radio.

14 Q. There was an armed conflict going on at this point, so it was very

15 important for you to know exactly what your orders would be, right?

16 A. Can you please repeat the question? I didn't quite understand

17 it.

18 Q. This was during a time of armed conflict, right?

19 A. I don't know what you're referring to during the armed conflict.

20 Q. Let's focus on the end of July and beginning of August. There was

21 an armed conflict going on in the area around Foca, in and around Foca,

22 right?

23 A. Yes. The main conflict was when we're referring to that, in early

24 August. That was the mountain pass of Rogoj, which was a very important,

25 strategic feature for both sides in the conflict.

Page 5275












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5276

1 Q. During this conflict things happened very quickly, right? Things

2 could change very fast.

3 A. Yes. Well, those are the winds of war. One side holds on to

4 something one day and the next day it is held by the other side.

5 Q. And you were working for the military at that time, is that right,

6 as a quartermaster?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And it would be important for you to accomplish whatever mission

9 you were given and return to headquarters to receive your next order,

10 right?

11 A. We didn't understand each other well. I did not receive orders

12 from the headquarters. The headquarters issued orders to all the units.

13 I was just one unit, quartermaster's unit.

14 Q. And you had a very important function, right? You had to deliver

15 food and other supplies. That's what you've described.

16 A. Yes. It was important that the quartermasters deliver all the

17 necessary supplies to the units at the front line. It would be food and

18 cigarettes and occasionally a bottle of liquor too.

19 Q. And it would be a very -- it would be a bad thing if you were not

20 available to deliver food where it was needed, right?

21 A. Of course. The soldiers at the front line cannot go without food.

22 Q. Now, you've described that when you went out to deliver food, you

23 did not have a radio with you.

24 A. Yes, you're right, I did not have a radio.

25 Q. In order to find out what your next assignment may be, you would

Page 5277

1 have to go back to headquarters, right?

2 A. I had assignments to deliver cigarettes and some food and then

3 come back to the barracks to get my following orders.

4 Q. Now, you described the food documents, and you said that Kunarac's

5 unit did not show up on that, was not described.

6 A. You're right. This unit you're referring to as Zaga's

7 reconnaissance unit did not exist at the time. There were just people who

8 occasionally went to reconnoitre. But in terms of military formation, it

9 did not exist on paper. It was just a group of people.

10 Q. You’ve never heard of or seen a document that said Zaga's

11 Independent Detachment?

12 A. No, definitely not.

13 Q. Despite the fact that Kunarac's unit did not show up, as you say,

14 on food documents, he could get food, right?

15 A. Well, he could because he was the top scout and engineer, and he

16 was probably receiving orders from the command.

17 Q. And he was able to get food not only for himself but for other

18 men, right?

19 A. He took food for himself and another two men perhaps.

20 Q. I'm sorry, did you say two? Only two men?

21 A. He came to me with the request accompanied by two people, is what

22 I meant, and he took rations for four or five people, from which I

23 concluded it was a group.

24 Q. Soldiers would come to get food as part of their regular

25 preparation for a mission, right?

Page 5278

1 A. Please tell me, what soldiers are you referring to?

2 Q. In general, the practice was that soldiers would get food as part

3 of their regular preparation for going out on a mission, right?

4 A. Yes. One of the soldiers would get the assignment to collect the

5 food for a number of people, and I issued that food.

6 Q. You only had to deliver the food in cases of emergency, right,

7 when the soldiers did not bring enough food?

8 A. No, not in cases of emergency. Food is regularly delivered, and

9 it depends on the availability of supplies in our storehouses when we will

10 have it delivered.

11 Q. Before soldiers would go out in the field on a particular mission,

12 they will have food with them, right, as much as they thought they might

13 need at the beginning? Then if they needed more, you would supplement

14 that; isn't that right?

15 A. It depends on the duration of operations. Sometimes they would

16 take food at the beginning and then if they stayed longer, we would

17 deliver more food to them.

18 Q. So before the soldiers would go out, they would bring at least one

19 day's supply of food, right?

20 A. Yes, you could say that. Sometimes a day, sometimes for two

21 days.

22 Q. Now, when the soldiers were going out -- you mentioned that on the

23 1st -- was it the 1st of August when the Muslims forces took over the

24 Rogoj Pass the first time?

25 A. I didn't quite follow you. The 1st August was what?

Page 5279

1 Q. What date was it that the Muslim forces took over the Rogoj Pass

2 the first time?

3 A. Well, our units started out on the 2nd of August, because on the

4 1st of August Muslim forces captured the Rogoj Pass, and parts of our Foca

5 Brigade went to help out the Kalinovacka Brigade, and they -- and

6 operations lasted until the 2nd of August, 1992.

7 Q. So the Foca Brigade units left on the 2nd of August, right?

8 A. Fighting went on on the 2nd of August, and I as a quartermaster

9 don't know how many soldiers left because there were troops already in

10 place and some units, some troops went subsequently to help them out.

11 Q. You mentioned that Kunarac was a scout. In fact, he had a group

12 of scouts and he was the leader, right?

13 A. I don't know what specific assignments he got, but considering

14 that he was the only engineer and scout who went on such missions, and in

15 the swirl of war, that is one of the most difficult assignments.

16 Q. So he was the leader, wasn't he?

17 A. Well, I don't know whether he deployed his men on the front line

18 itself. I suppose he did because he seemed to have been a leader of that

19 kind.

20 Q. Let me just make it very clear and simple. He was the leader of

21 that group, right? Yes or no?

22 A. Probably he was the leader of that group consisting of four or

23 five men. He was probably the leader on the front line in combat

24 operations.

25 Q. You mentioned that on the 2nd of August, when you went to Dobro

Page 5280

1 Polje, that you went to a coffee bar. Is that right?

2 A. Yes. It's a small settlement. There were not many establishments

3 there, and there was a tavern on the intersection of the Foca-Sarajevo

4 highway, and there is a turnoff for Kalinovik. At that place, there is

5 the establishment I was referring to.

6 Q. That was not a place that was used for regular military

7 operations, was it?

8 A. Well, that was a place located just outside the first front line,

9 the combat lines.

10 Q. But it wasn't used for military purposes, was it?

11 A. No, it was not used for military purposes except by us

12 quartermasters who used to bring food from there, cigarettes and all the

13 rest.

14 Q. Your assignment that day was to bring cigarettes to the soldiers.

15 Is that what you're saying?

16 A. Yes. To bring them to Dobro Polje, and then they were supposed to

17 be taken over by people who were assigned to the front line, who were on

18 mission there.

19 Q. You stated that you arrived in Dobro Polje at 1600 hours, right?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. The first troops didn't come back from Rogoj until 1700 hours,

22 right?

23 A. Yes. The first troops appeared from the direction of Rogoj at

24 about 1700 hours.

25 Q. During that time, during that hour, you stayed in the cafe; is

Page 5281

1 that right?

2 A. I did, inside and outside as well, with a couple of elderly men

3 who happened to be around.

4 Q. There were no other soldiers there at the cafe?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When you saw Dragoljub Kunarac for the first time that day, you

7 said it was at 1800 hours, right?

8 A. Yes, about 1800 hours.

9 Q. You saw that he came on a big truck with anti-aircraft guns

10 mounted on top, right?

11 A. Yes. He was on the truck and there was an anti-aircraft gun on

12 the truck.

13 Q. And there were large Arabic letters on the truck; is that right?

14 A. I don't remember that sign, but there was probably something

15 written on the truck. I don't remember exactly. I later heard that the

16 writing said something to the effect "Present from Saudi Arabia to the

17 people of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

18 Q. Mr. Djurovic, I did not ask you about a sign; I asked you about

19 lettering, big lettering. Did you see big lettering?

20 A. I didn't really pay attention, but there was some lettering in

21 Arabic.

22 Q. Big lettering?

23 A. Yes, big lettering across the truck, across the whole truck.

24 Q. You mentioned a sign as well. Did you also see a sign?

25 A. What sign did you -- I didn't understand you.

Page 5282

1 Q. In response to my first question, you said, "I did not see a

2 sign," but you were told about it later. That's the sign I'm asking you

3 about.

4 A. I didn't mean a sign. I meant a place where something could have

5 been indicated, because it said on the truck that it was a present from

6 Saudi Arabia to the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Q. You could read that even though it was in Arabic?

8 A. I don't know that language. Those were special -- that is a

9 special alphabet, so to say, and I couldn't really read it.

10 Q. But you just told us what it said.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness had said earlier that he had heard

12 later.

13 MS. KUO: I'm asking whether he could read it. That's fine, Your

14 Honour.

15 Q. When you saw the truck, there was nothing wrong with it, right?

16 A. That was a civilian truck which was in working order. It was

17 painted over green, greenish colour. Kunarac was on it and five or six

18 other people, and an anti-aircraft gun, a three-barrelled one.

19 Q. But it was able to move. Nothing wrong with its ability to move?

20 A. Yes, it could.

21 Q. Before you saw Kunarac that day, you don't know where he was, do

22 you?

23 A. No, absolutely. I don't know where which unit is located on the

24 front line. It was not essential to my job, and I couldn't know it. We

25 were far behind combat lines.

Page 5283

1 Q. So there was a celebration in Dobro Polje and then the column of

2 vehicles headed back to Foca, is that what you're saying?

3 A. Well, yes. It was a small celebration, if you could call it that

4 at all. We were just congratulating the troops. We distributed some

5 cigarettes among them, toasted them.

6 Q. You mentioned that when you went back to Velecevo, you left at

7 11.00. Where did you go?

8 A. To the place where I slept, to my room.

9 Q. That was still in Velecevo though, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said you went to bed at midnight.

12 A. Yes. I went to sleep at midnight, but I had turned in sometime

13 around 11.00.

14 Q. But you were still awake between 11.00 and midnight, right?

15 A. Yes, I was awake.

16 Q. At approximately 11.40 that night of August 2nd, there was a very

17 loud explosion, wasn't there?

18 A. I don't remember the exact time, but there was a loud explosion

19 between 11.00 and midnight.

20 Q. And you didn't leave your room when you heard the explosion, did

21 you?

22 A. No, I didn't. I just went to the window to see what it was.

23 Q. You couldn't see anything outside your window regarding the

24 explosion, could you?

25 A. No, because Velecevo is about 3 or 4 kilometres away from the

Page 5284

1 town, so you couldn't really see anything.

2 Q. It was an explosion that could have sounded like a shell falling

3 on the town, right, that kind of explosion?

4 A. The detonation was loud, and as far as mines and explosives are

5 concerned, I'm not sure exactly what could have caused such an explosion.

6 Q. There was no panic at the command headquarters in Velecevo when

7 the explosion went off, was there?

8 A. You mean the command?

9 Q. In Velecevo, yes.

10 A. I was asleep, and my part of the unit was on the opposite end of

11 the compound, and I couldn't see what their reaction was.

12 Q. So instead of going outside your room to find out what happened

13 after the explosion, you went right to sleep, right?

14 A. I expected somebody would tell me, but I simply fell asleep around

15 midnight, and the next morning I found out what had happened.

16 Q. So since you were in your room during that time, you don't know

17 where Mr. Kunarac was, do you know?

18 A. Beginning with 11.00, when I separated from the group, I don't

19 know what he was doing. I saw him the next morning at breakfast.

20 Q. If he left Velecevo and went somewhere else, you wouldn't know

21 that, right?

22 A. No, I wouldn't know, but usually a person who was staying the

23 night would show up at breakfast the next day. That was the rule.

24 Q. And you remember specifically that you saw Mr. Kunarac at

25 breakfast the next morning?

Page 5285












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5286

1 A. Yes. I'm sure about that because the previous day we were

2 celebrating, and he was the cause for celebration.

3 Q. Between 11.00 and the time you said you saw Mr. Kunarac at

4 breakfast, you have no idea what he did, do you?

5 A. You're right. Between 11.00 and 7.00 in the morning, I don't know

6 what he was doing.

7 MS. KUO: No further questions.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination?

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10 Re-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

11 Q. To the question of my learned colleague of whether maintenance of

12 vehicles belonging to the command pool was carried out within the

13 compound, could all repairs be done there or did some vehicles have to be

14 sent out?

15 A. No. Foca -- there is a big workshop in Foca in the place called

16 Brod. There was a well-known workshop in the area, but there were a few

17 mechanics at Velecevo who could repair some things but not everything.

18 Q. You said that Kunarac came to see you in late June to ask for food

19 for himself. What did he say to you when he came? Did he tell you that

20 he had been given an assignment?

21 A. Well, I already knew him by sight. Then he introduced himself.

22 He said, "My name is Dragoljub Kunarac, Zaga. I need five tins," and he

23 had come with two other men. And I said, I apologised, but I cannot issue

24 anything without approval. And he had been given an order directly from

25 the command to report to the depot, so I issued him with five tins.

Page 5287

1 Q. As far as I can understand, he personally had been given this

2 assignment of going out?

3 A. Yes, yes. He probably received all his assignments from the

4 command. I'm really not familiar with this.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. You're welcome.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no further questions.


10 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, we do not have any questions. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Witness, for giving evidence to the

13 Tribunal. You are free. You may leave the witness box.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make your solemn

18 declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare

20 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

Page 5288

1 Q. Good morning, Witness. Please tell us your name.

2 A. Good morning. My name is Radivoje Pavlovic.

3 Q. Can you tell us when and where you were born?

4 A. I was born in July 1949 in Foca.

5 Q. Where do you live?

6 A. I live in Foca.

7 Q. Would you tell us where you were living when the armed conflict

8 broke out in Foca?

9 A. I was living in Foca, in the Livade settlement, in my family

10 house.

11 Q. At that time when the conflict broke out in Foca, were you active

12 in the military?

13 A. No, I was not active in the conflicts in Foca.

14 Q. Would you tell us when you began to take an active part in the

15 military?

16 A. A few days after the conflict broke out, there was an announcement

17 over Radio Foca that all men liable for military service should respond,

18 and I went to the secretariat of the Peoples' Defence, that is, to the

19 Territorial Defence, to report as a person liable for military service.

20 Q. Was that the building of the police where you reported?

21 A. Yes. Yes, it was, and the Territorial Defence was located there.

22 Q. When you reported to the Secretariat of the Territorial Defence,

23 were you given an assignment?

24 A. Yes, I was given an assignment. I was a driver of motor vehicles

25 because that was my profession.

Page 5289

1 Q. Where was your headquarters?

2 A. It was within the Velecevo compound, at the penal institution

3 there.

4 Q. Can you tell us whether a number of soldiers were assigned as

5 drivers to the Tactical Group?

6 A. Yes. There are several of us, so we could have shifts and days

7 off.

8 Q. Is there anything that makes you remember the 2nd of August,

9 1992?

10 A. Yes, I remember the 2nd of August. I can easily remember it

11 because it's an Orthodox holiday; it's the prophet Alidza. And I also

12 remember it because of a feat that was performed by Serbian soldiers on

13 that day. That's when the Rogoj elevation was taken by our side, so I

14 remember it well.

15 Q. Can you tell us where you were on that day when the Rogoj

16 elevation was taken?

17 A. Well, I was in the barracks compound. I was on duty as a driver,

18 and I had to stay on duty until I was given further orders.

19 Q. Did you know Dragoljub Kunarac from before?

20 A. Well, I met Dragoljub Kunarac, Zaga, at the end of June 1992,

21 although I had known his family from before, his father, his brother, and

22 other members of his family.

23 Q. You said that you got to know him at the end of June. Can you

24 tell us where?

25 A. Well, he used to come to the barracks compound as a soldier of the

Page 5290

1 Serbian forces, and that's where I met him, and I got to know him by his

2 nickname Zaga. I saw that he wore a uniform, that he had longish hair,

3 and he stuck in my memory.

4 Q. You said that you remember the 2nd of August, 1992. Can you tell

5 us whether you saw Zaga on that day?

6 A. Yes. I saw Mr. Kunarac, also known as Zaga, in the evening hours

7 of that day.

8 Q. Can you tell us what time it was when you saw Zaga?

9 A. Well, it was just getting dark. It was summertime, so it was

10 about 2200 hours, something like that.

11 Q. Can you explain to us how it came about that you met or, rather,

12 that you saw Zaga that day?

13 A. Well, I was on duty in the compound by the lower building, if you

14 know, and in the darkness we heard some shooting. I went toward the

15 gate. I approached it, and I saw a truck, a TAM make truck, with an

16 anti-aircraft gun, and Mr. Kunarac, Zaga, was sitting on it, and they were

17 shooting. Then later on I heard that it had been captured at Rogoj from

18 the Muslim army. There were other soldiers around. I didn't pay much

19 attention.

20 Q. Can you tell us whether there was anyone else on the truck?

21 A. There were a few soldiers in uniform. I didn't look very

22 closely. There were other vehicles behind the truck. Then I went back to

23 my offices.

24 Q. You said that you went to the offices. Where were you?

25 A. Well, there was a room for the drivers on duty in the lower

Page 5291

1 building, and that's where I spent my time and where I slept.

2 Q. You said you went to the rooms where you slept. Can you tell us,

3 is there anything that helps you remember the following day, the 3rd of

4 August, 1992?

5 A. Yes. I remember that day also. I got up, I went to breakfast at

6 about 8.00. I was always prepared. My vehicle was outside. Then at

7 about noon, the commander said we were going out onto the field, and I set

8 out in the direction of Foca with a Lada Niva vehicle.

9 Q. I will interrupt you for a moment. Did any news arrive in the

10 command?

11 A. Yes. There was some news, some panic, because we heard that the

12 Muslim forces had retaken the Rogoj Pass on the Foca-Sarajevo road.

13 Q. You said that the commander told you to get the vehicle ready.

14 Did you set out from the Velecevo compound?

15 A. Yes. The commander and I set out a little after noon.

16 Q. And where did you go?

17 A. We went in the direction of Foca.

18 Q. Did you stop anywhere?

19 A. Yes, we did. First we stopped in the Aladza settlement in Foca

20 where this truck was that had been captured the previous evening, and

21 there were two or three soldiers around it, I think. The commander said,

22 "Stop here," so I stopped, and I sat in the vehicle awaiting further

23 orders. He had some kind of talk with them and he got back in and we went

24 on toward Brod. He said that there was something wrong with the truck,

25 that they had to have it serviced, that they couldn't change gears, and so

Page 5292

1 they got in and we went to Miljevina.

2 Q. Did the commander talk to them?

3 A. Yes. He did have some conversations with them while I was

4 driving, but I didn't listen. I was just doing my job.

5 Q. You said that three soldiers got in at the Aladza settlement. Did

6 you know them?

7 A. No, I didn't know those soldiers. I didn't know them. I heard

8 them talking about the fighting at the Rogoj Pass. They had Montenegrin

9 accents. So I concluded they were from Montenegro. One of them kept

10 quiet and didn't say much.

11 Q. You said that you set out from Foca. Where did you go?

12 A. We went in the direction of Miljevina.

13 Q. Did you stop in Miljevina?

14 A. We stopped in front of the motel in Miljevina.

15 Q. You said that you stopped in front of the motel. Did you find

16 anyone there?

17 A. There was a group of soldiers there, and Mr. Kunarac was with

18 them, also known as Zaga.

19 Q. After your stopped your vehicle, can you tell us what happened

20 next?

21 A. Well, as a driver, I sat at the steering wheel waiting for further

22 orders. The commander got out, said hello to Mr. Kunarac, and they stood

23 apart and had a conversation. After awhile, Mr. Kunarac came in my

24 direction, and he said, "We're going to Kalinovik."

25 So Zaga got into the car and sat down, and I think another man got

Page 5293

1 in with him, a soldier. Yes, I'm sure a soldier got in. And he said,

2 "We're going to Kalinovik."

3 Q. In the statement you gave to me, if you remember, in June you said

4 that in Miljevina, Zaga got in. Today you're saying another man got in

5 with Zaga. Which of these is correct?

6 A. Well, I know it's a small car, and I know it was crowded. It's

7 been eight years since then, but I know there were a lot of them in the

8 back. Another one did get in, but I can't always remember who I was

9 driving, how many people, but I know that another man did get in.

10 Q. So what road did you take to Kalinovik?

11 A. The old macadam road on the left-hand side over the Brdija Pass,

12 Jelasca via Dobra Vode.

13 Q. Can you tell us when you arrived in Kalinovik?

14 A. Well, we arrived at about 1600 hours, 1600 hours. About 1600

15 hours.

16 Q. And how long did you stay in Kalinovik?

17 A. The soldiers got out, and Kunarac got out with them, and they told

18 me to go back, so I went back to Foca on my own.

19 Q. Can you tell us after 3rd of August, 1992, do you remember when

20 you saw Zaga again for the first time?

21 A. I remember well. I saw Zaga on the

22 Foca-Dragocava-Velecevo-Dragocava road. He had a small vehicle, a Polonez

23 make, orange, and he had gone off the road. I asked him if he needed help

24 and he said he was slightly injured, that his ribs were hurt, something

25 like that.

Page 5294

1 Q. And the place where he was injured, is it close to the Velecevo

2 building?

3 A. Well, it's about a kilometre away.

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my last question, Your

5 Honours.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour. Thank

8 you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, madam.

10 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we don't have any questions for this

11 witness. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

13 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

15 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, you were the driver for Commander Colonel Marko

16 Kovac, right?

17 A. I was the driver on duty. I was a qualified driver, and I could

18 drive any vehicle, but yes, I did drive him. I drove anybody that I was

19 ordered to drive.

20 Q. Colonel Kovac was the Commander of the Tactical Group Foca,

21 right?

22 A. Yes, he was the Commander.

23 Q. On the 3rd of August, the way you've described it, Colonel Kovac

24 issued orders directly to Dragoljub Kunarac, didn't he?

25 A. I am in no position to know that. I saw them talking in

Page 5295

1 Miljevina, but I don't know of any orders.

2 Q. You saw them speaking directly to each other, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, at 8.00 on the morning of the 3rd of August, you said that

5 news had already arrived that the Rogoj Pass had fallen, correct?

6 A. I went to take breakfast around 8.00, and later, after that, is

7 when I heard the panic and that the Rogoj feature had been taken during

8 the night.

9 Q. What time was that?

10 A. Sometime after the breakfast. I cannot give you a specific time.

11 I had finished my breakfast and took a walk around the vehicles. Before

12 12.00. I cannot specify really because eight years have gone by.

13 Q. When you took a walk around your vehicle, was it in the parking

14 lot?

15 A. There is no parking lot there. There was a road and there was --

16 there were lanes, and I pulled in by the sidewalk. It's not really a

17 marked parking lot.

18 Q. That's where all the vehicles in the compound would be, right?

19 A. No. This was in -- I parked it in front of the staircase. There

20 was a place to sit down there and it's a road there.

21 Q. The truck that you had seen the previous day, was it still there?

22 A. No, it wasn't there in the morning. I didn't see it in the

23 morning.

24 Q. When you saw it the night before, it was functioning -- it was

25 moving forward on its own, right? It wasn't being pulled by any other

Page 5296

1 vehicle?

2 A. I saw it at the gate, and Mr. Kunarac was at the gun. It was

3 dark. I didn't pay much attention. I saw it at the gate. It had been

4 just sitting there.

5 Q. You said around noon on the 3rd of August, Colonel Kovac asked you

6 to drive him to Aladza, right?

7 A. It is correct that I went into the field. I didn't know where I

8 was going. He said just said, "Drive, stop, drive, stop." That was the

9 nature of my job.

10 Q. So he gave you specific directions about when to start, when to

11 stop, where to go, right?

12 A. Correct. That's it.

13 Q. You went directly to Aladza under his direction, right?

14 A. We took the road through -- that leads through the town of Foca,

15 and we came to the section of Aladza, yes.

16 Q. The place where you saw the three Montenegrins, the soldiers, was

17 on a street very close to the Aladza mosque, right?

18 A. It's not far. It's close. It was close.

19 Q. In fact, isn't it true that it was on the street Ulica Osmana

20 Djikica?

21 A. I am convinced that the name of the street was Ivan Goran Kovacic

22 street. I can assert that.

23 Q. The street that I mentioned is very close to the street you

24 mentioned, right?

25 A. There are side streets there which I don't know by name, to be

Page 5297

1 honest with you, but I know that the main street that leads out of town

2 through the centre is the Ivan Goran Kovacic street because it passes

3 through my neighbourhood.

4 Q. When you stopped and Colonel Kovac spoke to those three soldiers,

5 it didn't appear that it was -- that he just met them accidentally,

6 right? It looked like he intended to look for these three soldiers, and

7 he found them; isn't that right?

8 A. I don't know how to answer that. I cannot read anybody's mind. I

9 don't know that.

10 Q. When you gave your statement to Mr. Prodanovic on the 8th of June

11 of 2000, you stated that you concluded that they had an agreement before

12 because Colonel Kovac knew about those three soldiers before you came into

13 the Aladza settlement, and he told you to stop there. Isn't that what you

14 said?

15 A. What can I say? It was panic up there. We started, and they were

16 by the trucks because there must have been an agreement. I don't know.

17 Q. But it looked like Colonel Kovac was looking for those soldiers,

18 and he found them, right? That's the agreement that you talked about.

19 Nobody was surprised.

20 A. He probably did, but there was panic and everybody was surprised.

21 Q. Colonel Kovac asked those three soldiers to get into the car with

22 you and him, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You then drove directly to Miljevina where you stopped at the

25 Miljevina Hotel or Motel? Is that what you're saying?

Page 5298

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You're absolutely sure it was the Miljevina Motel?

3 A. Yes. I stopped in front of the Miljevina Motel, at the sidewalk.

4 I know exactly the spot where we stopped. I know exactly. I can draw it

5 for you.

6 Q. In your statement to Mr. Prodanovic in June of this year you

7 stated that Mr. Kunarac got into the car, and you didn't mention anyone

8 else, did you?

9 A. I didn't because after so much time, eight years, I don't know all

10 the details.

11 Q. But today, you said that you thought there was another man with

12 him, correct?

13 A. I don't understand the question.

14 Q. Earlier in your testimony, when you were asked by Mr. Prodanovic

15 about who got into the car at the Miljevina Motel, you said that Kunarac

16 did and, "I think another man, a soldier, also got in," right? That's

17 what you said.

18 A. Yes. Not a man, a soldier. A soldier got in with Zaga at the

19 motel.

20 Q. You remembered this and you said this was eight years ago. So you

21 don't remember all the details, but you've just added a detail today,

22 correct?

23 A. That is correct, because I recalled further details when I came on

24 this trip.

25 Q. Who was this other man?

Page 5299

1 A. A soldier. I knew very few of those soldiers.

2 Q. You didn't know who this other man was, this soldier, right?

3 A. No. I didn't know anyone except Mr. Kunarac.

4 Q. So there was no particular reason for you to remember him getting

5 into the car, right? No reason to remember it on your own.

6 A. Now or before?

7 Q. Now.

8 A. I remembered even before, after I had given the statement. You

9 know, your memory comes back. Memories come and go. Some things you

10 forget. But I remembered that another man got in, because it was a small

11 vehicle and it was a bit tight. So the two of them got in I remember.

12 Q. But there were already three soldiers in the back of your car,

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And your car wasn't very large.

16 A. It wasn't large.

17 Q. Three soldiers in the back of your car is already crowded, isn't

18 it?

19 A. Yes. Three is regular, but this was a bit -- one too many.

20 Q. In fact, when you gave your statement to Mr. Prodanovic, you gave

21 a very precise detail that when you arrived at Kalinovik, "from the

22 vehicle came out Zaga and those three soldiers," correct?

23 A. They all got out, and I said that at that time, but it was this

24 way, because everybody who was in the vehicle got out and I returned by

25 myself. I was in a hurry to make it before dark.

Page 5300












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5301

1 Q. When you were at the Miljevina Motel and you saw Zaga with the

2 other soldiers there, you didn't see any girls there, did you?

3 A. I didn't, and I wasn't paying attention. I was doing my job. I

4 didn't pay attention.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you still have questions?

6 MS. KUO: I have very few brief questions, but perhaps we can take

7 a break.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can have a break and continue this morning

9 at 1130 hours.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll proceed with cross-examination by the

13 Prosecution.

14 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. With the assistance of the

15 usher, I would like the witness to be shown Prosecution Exhibit 11,

16 photographs 7394, 7395, 7396, and 3797.

17 Q. Witness, do you recognise what is shown in those photographs?

18 Witness, that is the area in the Aladza neighbourhood that Colonel Kovac

19 directed you to stop that morning, isn't that right?

20 A. No. That's not the picture. That's not where they stopped. It's

21 here. They stopped it on this road.

22 Q. Could you please put that photograph on the ELMO and then show

23 us.

24 JUDGE HUNT: It was there, and could we get the number recorded so

25 we know in the transcript, please.

Page 5302

1 MS. KUO:

2 Q. You're indicating now-- what we are seeing is photograph 7397,

3 and you said it was "there." Could you please indicate what you meant by

4 "there"?

5 A. It was -- the picture was taken from the opposite direction, not

6 from our direction.

7 Q. Well, just to clarify, photograph 7397 is looking at the road --

8 A. We went in the opposite direction. We were coming from the

9 direction where the arrow is pointing. We came from that direction.

10 Q. Correct. That's where Velecevo is. And if you come --

11 A. Yes, and that's where we were coming from.

12 Q. If you go right, across the photograph --

13 A. No, no, no. We were not turning anywhere. I'm moving straight.

14 Just follow the arrow.

15 Q. Coming straight, let's say, out forward, that's the direction you

16 were coming from; is that right?

17 A. Yes. And there's a bend in the road, and we move on from there

18 across the bridge then.

19 Q. In fact, this is the street that you named earlier?

20 A. The Ivan Goran Kovacic, yes.

21 Q. Exactly. And that's the street where you saw the three men with

22 Montenegrin accents, in the truck, right?

23 A. Somewhere around here. That is where the truck was parked and

24 that's where we were.

25 Q. You need to show it on the ELMO itself rather than the computer.

Page 5303

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can't see the pointer.

2 A. It was from the upper part of the picture. This is -- and it was

3 here on the right-hand side, looking downwards, and I stopped here, around

4 in front of the truck.

5 MS. KUO:

6 Q. Where was the truck, on the left-hand side or the right-hand side

7 of the road from as you were coming?

8 A. Coming from Velecevo it was on the right-hand side, alongside some

9 stone wall. There is a wall there. It's still there now.

10 Q. And it was at this point where the road is actually indicated on

11 this photograph, right? Where the truck was parked, you can actually see

12 that location. You've pointed it out.

13 A. You mean the location where the truck was parked?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. There is a stone wall over on the side of the road, and that's

16 about where the truck was.

17 MS. KUO: Just for the record, Your Honour, it's -- the witness

18 was indicating the left-hand side of the road -- of the photograph, which

19 would have been the right-hand side of the road as he's coming from

20 Velecevo.


22 A. Yes.

23 MS. KUO: I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your

Page 5304

1 Honour, two questions only.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Go ahead.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

4 Q. Can you tell us whether there were several vehicles that you could

5 use, in the Velecevo compound?

6 A. Yes, there were several. There were a number of them.

7 Q. Could you tell us what colour vehicle did you have when you went

8 on the 3rd of August? You said that it was a jeep-type vehicle, Lada

9 Niva.

10 A. The one that I was driving? It was a beige colour.

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank

12 you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I have no

15 questions. Thank you.


17 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have any questions for this

18 witness. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness, for giving witness to

20 the Tribunal. You are now free. You may leave the witness box.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome. Thank you.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make your solemn

25 declaration.

Page 5305

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare

2 that I shall speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

9 Q. Good morning, Witness.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Will you please introduce yourself, tell us your first and last

12 names.

13 A. My name is Mirko Przulj.

14 Q. When and where were you born?

15 A. I was born on the 18th of March, 1953, in Dobro Polje.

16 Q. What is your occupation?

17 A. I am a worker.

18 Q. Where do you live?

19 A. I have a flat in Kalinovik, and I have a family house in Dobro

20 Polje. Sometimes I reside in Kalinovik, sometimes in Dobro Polje.

21 Q. Upon the outbreak of the armed conflict, can you tell us, were you

22 active in the army?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us when that was?

25 A. That was in end May 1992.

Page 5306

1 Q. Were you called up?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that a mobilisation summons?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you respond to the summons?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where did you report?

8 A. To the unit.

9 Q. The unit where you were assigned, did it have a wartime

10 assignment?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us where was its wartime assignment?

13 A. In the broader area of Rogoj.

14 Q. Was there anything special to make you remember the end of July

15 1992?

16 A. Yes. I remember well the 30th of July, 1992. The Muslims had

17 prepared a general offensive in the broader area of Rogoj, attacked us,

18 and I was wounded then.

19 Q. What happened after you were wounded?

20 A. After being wounded, I was transferred to Kalinovik, to the health

21 centre, where I was given emergency medical assistance.

22 Q. Where were you wounded?

23 A. In the right arm.

24 Q. Do you remember that you said to the investigator of the Defence a

25 statement concerning these events?

Page 5307

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us when that was?

3 A. Somewhere in March last year.

4 Q. I will remind you, you said then that Muslim forces on the 31st of

5 July, 1992, attacked your positions, and you were wounded on that

6 occasion.

7 A. Yes, I did say that in my statement, but that was my mistake.

8 When I was giving the statement to (redacted), the investigator, I was

9 probably wrong about the dates. And when I was told that I was going to

10 The Hague as a witness, I went over my medical documentation, and I saw

11 that I was wounded on the 30th, not the 31st. So it's my mistake, not a

12 mistake of the investigator.

13 Q. You said that after the wounding, you were transferred to

14 Kalinovik.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How long did you stay in the outpatient department?

17 A. Well, I don't know. As long as it took for bandages to be put.

18 After that, I was released and went home.

19 Q. Do you remember what happened on the next day, the 31st of July,

20 1992?

21 A. On the 31st July 1992, since I was duty-bound to report to the

22 outpatient unit for a change of bandages, I went there. On my way back, I

23 was again obligated to report to the command, to my commander, and to say

24 that I had been wounded, so that he could give me leave.

25 Q. Can you tell us, in the morning of the 31st, did you learn of any

Page 5308

1 news regarding the fighting in Rogoj?

2 A. As I said, I was in Kalinovik then, and the news reached us that

3 the Muslim forces had taken the Rogoj Pass and a small town of Trnovo,

4 that there were many casualties. Many people were killed and wounded.

5 Q. On that day, was there an alert?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that on the 31st of July, after the bandaging, you went

8 to the command.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Why?

11 A. Well, I went there to report to the commander so that he could

12 give me leave so that I would not be expected to be in the unit.

13 Q. Can you tell us what was happening in the command when you

14 arrived?

15 A. Well, I reported as I was supposed to, and when I was getting out

16 of the building, of the command, I met a couple of soldiers. I greeted

17 them, and all that was on the 31st of July. I also met Mr. Dragoljub

18 Kunarac for the first time.

19 Q. Can you tell us approximately what was the time then?

20 A. Well, approximately between 1600 and 1700 hours, 1800 hours on the

21 outside. I can't remember exactly.

22 Q. After the introductions and greetings, where did you go?

23 A. I went home, back to my flat.

24 Q. The next day, did you go to the doctor?

25 A. Yes. I was supposed to have my wounds dressed every day.

Page 5309

1 Q. All those days, did you stay in Kalinovik?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. During those days, did anything special happen that you remember?

4 A. I remember the 2nd of August, 1992, St. Alidza's Day. I was

5 coming back home from the health centre, and when I was approaching the

6 Municipal Assembly, I saw the car I was driving, a vehicle that was a

7 freight vehicle of the enterprise, type Zastava. It was left as it was

8 not supposed to be left on the road, and the vehicle was not driven

9 properly.

10 I ran to my car, I stopped the car, and I asked the man at the

11 wheel, "Excuse me, but who gave you the right to use the vehicle I was

12 issued with?" This young man got out of the car. He rudely turned to me

13 and said, "What business do you have to ask, fool? You should keep

14 quiet." That young man was shorter than I was, about 170 centimetres in

15 height, brown hair, very strong, physically stronger than I was.

16 So I turned away from the car because there was only one real

17 street in front of the Municipal Assembly going downhill a little, and he

18 took the car down towards the factory in Kalinovik. The factory was

19 called the 1st of October.

20 Q. That young man, did he get out of the car?

21 A. Yes, he did, and he rudely turned to me.

22 Q. Why was that car being used like -- what was the purpose, the

23 designated purpose of that car?

24 A. I didn't understand. You mean in the enterprise?

25 Q. Yes, in your company.

Page 5310

1 A. Well, it was used to carry goods.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: [previous translation continues] ... please.

3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. [no translation]

5 A. [no translation]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: We didn't get the English translation, please.

7 A. I went to the police station to report the theft of the vehicle.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Not even the question was interpreted. Maybe you

9 can repeat the question, Mr. Prodanovic. Then you will get the record

10 straight.

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. My question, my last question was, what did you do after that

13 young man went down the street?

14 A. After he left with my freight vehicle, I went to the SUP, the

15 police station, to report the theft.

16 Q. Did you make any inquiries about the fate of that truck?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please tell me, do you have any knowledge where that car was?

19 A. I learned that it was in Montenegro in the city of Niksic. After

20 that, I don't know where it ended up.

21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when we were

22 introducing evidence through Witness DA and which were marked for

23 identification, we submitted a copy of the traffic licence of this

24 refrigerator vehicle. It was not very readable, and I had promised then

25 that we would have it Xeroxed again, and we made new photocopies where you

Page 5311

1 can see the traffic licence of this vehicle. It was marked as D98.

2 We would like to tender this into evidence, this traffic licence,

3 because that was the vehicle which was used to drive the girls, as the

4 indictment says, from Kalinovik to Foca.

5 The translation of the traffic licence was submitted earlier with

6 the bad copy.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: We just want to clarify this. This licence, D98, it

8 was marked for identification only.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, under number

10 D98.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It was not admitted into evidence.

12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please proceed.

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Did you find out how this refrigerator vehicle was stolen and

16 where it was?

17 A. Yes, I did learn that. It was parked in front of my family house

18 in Dobro Polje, and thinking, when the armed conflict broke out, that I

19 would save it better there and have it for my use, I drove it there.

20 Three young men seemed to have come there, turned on the ignition, and

21 drove it away from Dobro Polje.

22 Q. Did you join your unit after your treatment was completed?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my last question, Your

25 Honour. I would like to note that I'm not sure whether the traffic

Page 5312

1 licence was marked for identification as a Defence exhibit. Did it

2 receive a number?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay, let me make this clear. This licence,

4 whatever it's called, was marked D98 for identification only. It was not

5 admitted into evidence so that it will not be part of the record.

6 If you wish to use it for any purpose at all to support your

7 Defence case, then you better apply to have it admitted into evidence,

8 because even if it's given an identification number, the Judges will not

9 consider this because it is not part of the evidence.

10 It is normally given to the registrar just to keep for records

11 once a document is marked for identification only.

12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we suggested -- we

13 asked for this traffic licence to be admitted into evidence to support the

14 statement of this witness, his testimony, and it is accompanied by an

15 English translation which we provided, because the copy was not readable

16 and we made a new copy.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Let's ask the Prosecution. What is your

18 submission?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think we would first would need to have the

20 witness identify this licence if it is really belonging to the truck;

21 otherwise, how could we take a position?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic. You heard what the Prosecution

23 said.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher --

25 oh, no. Sorry. My witness already has a copy of the traffic licence.

Page 5313

1 Q. Could you tell us, is that a copy of the traffic licence of the

2 vehicle you were issued with?

3 A. I confirm, with full responsibility, that this is indeed the

4 traffic licence of my vehicle.

5 Q. Do you own the original of that traffic licence?

6 A. I do possess it, and I can produce it to this Court at some time

7 in the future, I can send it, because I still have the original traffic

8 licence because I hoped that I would continue to work with it.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No more questions, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, before cross-examination, on

11 the document.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objections against entering it into

13 evidence.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: We will have it formally admitted, and I will ask

15 the registrar if it will retain the same number as an exhibit now.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will retain the same

17 number, i.e., D98.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

19 Cross-examination. I'm sorry, I didn't ask Mr. Kolesar. Any

20 questions for this witness?

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no questions.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam?

23 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honour. We do not have any questions for

24 this witness. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination.

Page 5314

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

3 Q. Witness, before the war you were a driver, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you were in charge of this truck, right?

6 A. Yes, as I have just said.

7 Q. And it was a refrigerator truck, wasn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said that this truck was parked in the yard of your house in

10 Dobro Polje, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. For how long was it parked there?

13 A. I can't remember exactly how long it was parked there, but it was

14 quite a long time, of course.

15 Q. During a war, the army needs trucks to transport soldiers and

16 goods, right?

17 A. I didn't understand your question.

18 Q. When there is a war, an army needs vehicles to transport goods and

19 soldiers; isn't that true?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Your truck did not stand at your house for months without being

22 used, right? It was used for transporting ammunition, wasn't it?

23 A. No. The truck was parked in front of my house, and it was empty.

24 Q. And it was never moved away, and it was never used for

25 transporting ammunition boxes?

Page 5315

1 A. No. I assert that with full responsibility before this Trial

2 Chamber.

3 Q. You said that you later heard that three soldiers stole the car

4 from your yard, right?

5 A. Well, yes. As I said, three men I didn't know drove it away.

6 Q. Did they have a key?

7 A. I couldn't say. I'm not sure. I don't know how they turned on

8 the ignition.

9 Q. You said you saw this truck on the 2nd of August in Kalinovik, and

10 you talked to the driver, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you said the driver even left the car to talk to you, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you gave your statement to the Defence investigator, you

15 didn't mention that fact, did you?

16 A. Well, maybe he didn't ask me. If the investigator had asked me

17 the way you are asking me, I probably would have told him so. But I made

18 a statement about this, and in my previous statement I did say everything

19 that you've been asking me. Perhaps I didn't understand you well, but in

20 this statement that I made to the investigator, is that what you're

21 referring to?

22 Q. Yes, I'm referring to the statement you gave to the Defence

23 investigator.

24 A. Yes. Well, I told him everything he asked me, and I will tell you

25 everything you ask me.

Page 5316

1 Q. And you saw this truck at around 1400 hours, right? That's, at

2 least, what you said.

3 A. No. Well, it's not what I said, it's the truth. I did see it at

4 1400 hours.

5 Q. Yes. That's exactly what I was asking you.

6 A. Well, maybe I didn't understand you at once.

7 Q. You said that you saw Mr. Kunarac for the first time on the 31st

8 of July. You said that today, right?

9 A. I said -- yes, of course. That's what I said, the 31st.

10 Q. You did not say to the Defence investigator. Let me quote from

11 this statement to the Defence investigator: "I personally know the

12 accused Dragoljub Kunarac because he came to Kalinovik when Rogoj was

13 again fallen." "Again fallen," that's the 3rd of August, isn't it?

14 A. Well, that was when I got to know Mr. Kunarac, yes.

15 Q. But today you say it was on the 31st of July that you saw him.

16 What is the truth?

17 A. I did see him on the 31st of July.

18 Q. Why is there the difference, then, in your two statements? In

19 your statement from March 1999, you said you saw him after Rogoj was

20 fallen again. That is 3rd of August.

21 A. No. No, I don't remember. The first time I saw him was, as I

22 said, on the 31st. That is the first time I saw Mr. Kunarac, and I didn't

23 see him after that. And later, as it says, I only saw him again in the

24 middle of 1994, 1995, when there was fighting around the Treskavica Pass.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic. You're on your feet.

Page 5317

1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we object to the

2 manner of examination because it is an indisputable fact that the Rogoj

3 Pass fell on several occasions and changed hands. That's what the witness

4 said. The witness didn't say before or after.

5 So the Rogoj Pass fell both before the 31st of July and after, and

6 the witness did not say decidedly that it was afterwards, as the

7 Prosecutor now wishes to represent.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, I suppose the Prosecutor can clarify that with

9 the witness since she's still cross-examining.


11 Q. But I have read to you what is in your previous statement to

12 Defence counsel, and there it says, "When Rogoj was again fallen and held

13 by the Muslims." That, to me, means after the 2nd of August.

14 A. No. As I said, I only saw him -- maybe it's an error, but I saw

15 Mr. Kunarac only in 1994 and 1995.

16 Q. And you only saw him on this one occasion in Kalinovik, and you

17 did not then continue meeting him over that following time period, right?

18 A. No, as I said.

19 Q. You said that at 2.00 on the 2nd of August, you saw the truck in

20 Kalinovik. When was it stolen from your yard; do you know that?

21 A. Well, probably at around -- well, it's possible if it was in

22 Kalinovik at 2.00 and it's a 40-minute drive, I don't know what those men

23 did, but some 40 minutes or an hour before, so maybe it was at about

24 12.00.

25 Q. When did you see the truck actually for the last time at your

Page 5318












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5319

1 house?

2 A. When did I see it? Well, I can't remember exactly when I saw it

3 for the last time. I don't know when I had a day off. But it was parked

4 up there in front of the house.

5 Q. That means you didn't see it for several days. You only saw it

6 then suddenly, to your surprise, being driven by a man you did not know,

7 right?

8 A. A man I didn't know.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination, if any.

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Yes, Mr. Kolesar?

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic?

15 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, we do not have any questions. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to

18 the Tribunal. You are free. You may leave the witness box.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: That's the last witness today? Any more witnesses,

22 Mr. Prodanovic, or the other Defence counsels as well?

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That was our

24 last witness. We announced three witnesses for today, so we have no more

25 witnesses.

Page 5320

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, there was a filing of a document

2 related to the Katastar map, I think, where we had asked for names of the

3 occupants to say whether or not they were Muslims or Serbs or whatever.

4 We have seen a filing which we would like to hear from you.

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. My colleague

6 Ms. Lopicic was about to explain this.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Ms. Lopicic?

8 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, Your Honours. Defence tendered into evidence

9 through the Witness DA last week the plan of survey as D100. Afterwards,

10 we received an order from you, actually a request, to explain the names,

11 who are Serbs, who are Muslims.


13 MS. LOPICIC: On the 21st of July, we submitted Defence

14 notification pursuant to Trial Chamber request. Due to the following

15 order, I copied nine copies, so I would like to submit with D100, it could

16 be D100A, the second page of that edification.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We would like to hear from the Prosecution.

18 Any submission?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour. We don't have any

20 objections.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Can we have the formal numbering from

22 the registrar? Maybe 100 stroke whatever.

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Since D100A was assigned to the

24 English version of the document, this document will be marked D100/1,

25 Defence Exhibit D100/1.

Page 5321

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

2 MS. LOPICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe we can discuss the other points dealing

5 with the Defence case. We have a filing of the 20th July dealing with

6 video-conference link, and we are notified about the place where the

7 videolink can be staged, somewhere in Sarajevo. We wanted to find out

8 from the parties, both the Defence and the Prosecution, whether this is

9 now agreed.

10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We said that

11 the Court in Lukavica will allow us to use their premises and that that is

12 where the examination by videolink will be carried out. It's about 300

13 metres away from the airport.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We are actually not involved in the

16 organisation. That's a matter of the Defence and the Registry, but we

17 have no objections, of course.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. We would like to find out from the Registry

19 or maybe the registrar can check with the security later and confirm with

20 the Trial Chamber and the Defence and the Prosecution, because we would

21 like to be satisfied with the security concerns regarding the venue,

22 because we would like members of staff of the Tribunal to be properly

23 protected.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar is still conducting

25 investigations regarding the technical feasibility of this

Page 5322

1 video-conference, but apparently there are no problems in terms of

2 security. The videolink could be organised at the location proposed by

3 Defence counsels. But at the moment, we are conducting an investigation

4 regarding technical feasibility because we have to set up a satellite

5 link. Therefore, everything has to be sorted out in terms of technical

6 measures before the Registry can give an answer about this new location.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Madam Registrar, for the explanation.

8 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are not opposed

10 to a better solution if the Registry can offer a better solution than this

11 one. We thought that as the airport is very nearby, this was the best

12 solution so that equipment need not be transported a long way, but if the

13 Registry can offer a better solution, we, of course, would agree that it

14 would be either Bijeljina or Banja Luka.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: You understood the registrar's explanation that they

16 are looking into the technical part. So we'll wait and see what they will

17 say, because you suggested the 19th of September for this videolink, which

18 is a Tuesday. Yes. So we would have Monday for everybody to check the

19 equipment or at least before then they will be notified and there may be a

20 change of venue.

21 So now the Trial Chamber would like to find out how many more

22 witnesses we have yet to hear from the Defence, combined number.

23 Yes. Just the number, so we can roughly tell how many more

24 sitting days we require.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on our list we have

Page 5323

1 four expert witnesses and 20 Defence witnesses, including the witnesses

2 for Mr. Kunarac, Mr. Kovac, and Mr. Vukovic, and that is exactly the

3 number of witnesses mentioned in the motion for the Rule 65 ter.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Of the four expert witnesses, one of them is a

5 lawyer, is a professor of law.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is wondering and would like -- you

9 may be seated, Mr. Kolesar. Thank you.

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We would like to find out from the Prosecution about

12 the law professor. You still feel you would like to cross-examine him?

13 That's the Prosecution.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, that was our wish.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. After today, we resume our proceedings on the

16 11th of September, and continue without a break until we complete the

17 witnesses. The Trial Chamber hopes that the Defence counsels will liase

18 closely with the Victims and Witnesses Unit to avoid some of the problems

19 we've been through, and also to make it a point -- we will ask the senior

20 legal officer to confirm with the Victims and Witnesses Unit that we have

21 at least a good number witnesses, we don't miss out even one hour, because

22 it's getting late and the other cases lined up for the Trial Chamber are

23 waiting. So we would like to finish hearing this case as quickly as

24 possible.

25 It is a fairly short case, except that we've been having these

Page 5324

1 hitches sometimes. We would have gone a long way with the Defence

2 witnesses. So please do work out during the break, and make sure you

3 revisit the status of your witnesses in case they change their minds or

4 they want protective measures. Please let the other party know as quickly

5 as possible so we have more or less consent orders on protective measures

6 wherever possible, otherwise, then the Trial Chamber will have to rule.

7 Any other matters from the Defence?

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of the accused

9 Kunarac has no further issues.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, except I would like

12 to take the opportunity that we will honour the suggestions of the Trial

13 Chamber, if my understanding is correct, your suggestion is that we should

14 first start with expert witnesses on the 11th and then continue with the

15 fact witnesses first for Mr. Kunarac and then so on, and I don't know if

16 that is a standing suggestion. If there are any changes, we will

17 obviously conform.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: It is a standing suggestion in the sense because it

19 does help the expert witnesses to be committed to a particular date. And

20 normally when you begin with them, then you don't have the gaps and they

21 wait. You see, we would like to try and avoid keeping them waiting

22 unnecessarily long. So if we started with them on a Monday, for instance,

23 one would hope that by Wednesday we would be through with all the expert

24 witnesses and then they would be able to go back to their normal

25 assignments.

Page 5325

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, even though these

2 expert witnesses, the medical ones, are tied together, we would have to

3 group them. But anyway, we'll see what we can do. We will start on the

4 11th. We start with Professor Dunjic, that is number 3, and then

5 Dr. Jovanovic who is number 4, and Madam Raskovic, number 5 on our list.

6 And the last expert would be Professor Bejatovic, who is number 34 on the

7 list.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That will be preferable, for purposes of

9 releasing the experts as early as possible. Then we will remain with the

10 ordinary witnesses.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, any matters?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The proceedings are adjourned and we will resume on

15 the 11th of September this year, Monday, 0930 hours.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.27 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of

18 September, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.