1 Tuesday, 12 September 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [No interpretation]
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, witness. We are continuing this
9 morning with our examination-in-chief. Mr. Kolesar, the Trial Chamber
10 would like to remind you again that we've got the written opinion of the
11 witness, and if you can only concentrate on the highlights and a few
12 matters the witness would like to explain. Otherwise we've got it all
13 already. So let's move on, please.
14 WITNESS: DUSAN DUNJIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you
17 for cautioning me. I will do my best to be expedient in the questioning
18 of the witness. My questions will be aimed at clarifying certain points
19 which have not been covered sufficiently in the written report.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
21 Examined by Mr. Kolesar: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning, witness. Good morning, Professor. Yesterday we
23 discussed the consequences arising from violent acts, and my last question
24 was: Which consequences may arise from such violent acts but disappear
25 after a short while?
1 The next question I would like you to answer is: What
2 consequences may arise from vaginal intercourse against the victim's will,
3 with the repetition of such intercourse over a short period of time,
4 within several hours or one day?
5 A. Yesterday I elaborated upon several situations when injuries arise
6 out of violent intercourse. This refers to vaginal intercourse, and I
7 will concentrate on those injuries which may be found in a vaginal violent
9 I would like to remind you once again that with -- in the case of
10 a vaginal violent intercourse between a grown-up man and a woman, there
11 occur injuries which are short term and are conditioned by the external
12 genitalia of the woman. In voluntary intercourse there is normal
13 wettening of the vagina, but with vaginal violent intercourse there is no
14 such wettening, and each contact of the male and the female genitalia
15 leads to a series of erosions on the mucus membrane. If this intercourse
16 is cruel and violent, these injuries may be deeper, these erosions may be
17 deeper. If intercourse is frequent or there are several instances of
18 intercourse within a short period of time, depending on the injuries which
19 occurred in the first intercourse, the injuries may get deeper and cover
20 deeper layers of tissue and even reach the cervix. So with such frequent
21 intercourse, injuries are deeper, and thus, as a permanent consequence,
22 they may leave scars on the mucus membrane or scars on the muscle layer,
23 which cannot be seen, of course, now, but you can see scars on the vagina.
24 Q. Is that the case with the anal intercourse?
25 A. Yes, it is the case with anal intercourse too.
1 Q. I will repeat my question: Is it the case also with anal
3 A. Yes. Any erosion which occurs in the first act, in the first act
4 of intercourse, assuming that it arose, may deepen with each following
5 intercourse and thus may cause an injury which may cover various layers of
6 tissue, beginning with the mucus membrane, through the muscle layer, and
7 even get deeper to the anal sphincter. So what we look for in our
8 examinations after violent intercourse, we look for these consequences,
9 consequences of violent penetration of --
10 Q. Is the build, the complexion of the victim important for such
12 A. One of the reasons why forensic medical experts insist on
13 examining the victim is precisely the fact that one needs to assess the
14 build of the person and her degree of development, the build of the woman,
15 but also the degree of development of the genitalia, of sexual organs. In
16 practice, that means that we encounter cases where there are certain
17 anomalies on external sexual organs or in the -- on the labia, which make
18 it difficult for the male sexual organ to penetrate and which are
19 aggravated when the degree of development of sexual organs of the victim
20 is insufficient, and sometimes makes it impossible for the person to have
22 These may be temporary diseases or permanent diseases, temporary
23 such as insufficiently developed pelvis or permanent diseases such as
24 elephantiasis which make it difficult or impossible for the person to have
25 intercourse. If the person is unable to have intercourse, we are looking
1 for these particular injuries.
2 So I have spoken so far about these anatomical malformations which
3 make normal intercourse impossible. On the other hand, we have functional
4 anomalies which are most pronounced in very young persons, I mean younger
5 than 18, and frequently occur in cases of rape, and that is vaginaism.
6 This is a spasm of external sexual organs which makes it impossible for
7 the penis to penetrate deeper into the vagina. Because of that, it is
8 linked with physical injuries but also with psychological damage because
9 it causes stress, and vaginaism makes normal intercourse impossible. It
10 occurs most frequently in women who have been raped, and as a consequence,
11 cannot have normal intercourse later, even voluntary. So these functional
12 and anatomical factors are very important for the doctor who is examining
13 a victim of rape.
14 On the other hand, I would like to emphasise that very often we
15 are forced to require an examination of the accused to determine whether
16 there is an anomaly on his sexual organ which would make it impossible for
17 him to have intercourse. And from our forensic medical practice in our
18 country and abroad, we often encounter cases where certain persons, women
19 who are afraid of telling their parents or family, and therefore said that
20 they were raped rather than saying that they had intercourse.
21 And for all these reasons, it is necessary to examine the victim,
22 and in some cases also the accused. Thank you.
23 Q. The consequences of violent intercourse, primarily vaginal and
24 anal, do they require medical treatment, and if they do, what kind of
1 A. In any case, the doctor's opinion, and not only the doctor's, is
2 that these persons need every kind of medical attention and assistance.
3 In the therapeutical sense, it is necessary to redress medical
4 consequences such as bleeding or infection or even conception. These
5 persons need to be treated to eliminate the infection, bleeding, et
6 cetera. That's one aspect. Another aspect of medical treatment is to
7 determine as soon as possible all signs of intercourse, violent
8 intercourse, and it is necessary for all changes on the body to be
10 So on the one hand, it is necessary to extend assistance if there
11 has been infection and to check for any signs on the body which may be
12 used in the identification of the victim, examination of the body for
13 presence of semen, taking samples from the vagina, et cetera. These are
14 the basic routines in examining a victim of rape.
15 Q. I would like to know about vaginal intercourse. For how long can
16 the bleeding persist?
17 A. The bleeding which may be found -- let me say one thing. When we
18 say bleeding, there are two things. One has to do with first intercourse
19 in cases of defloration, the breaking of hymen; and the second kind of
20 bleeding is caused by injuries. It depends on how deep the injuries are,
21 and bleeding in such cases may be longer. When I say longer, it can last
22 for a half an hour, an hour. It's an individual reaction for each person,
23 depends on coagulation of blood. But each repeated intercourse, if rape
24 were to be repeated, or if such already existing injuries were to be, were
25 to be deepened, then the bleeding would be more -- would be heavier and
2 So whether the injuries are vaginal or rectal, they're very
3 susceptible to infection, and it's very important, therefore, to examine
4 the person and see whether there are any signs of infection.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, what is the relevance of all this in
6 the case before the Trial Chamber? You remember the ruling on the motion
7 to have some of the victims who were witnesses examined. Do you remember
8 we did say that the Prosecution are not relying on medical evidence? They
9 didn't call any. So what's the relevance of all this?
10 You did say you were going to ask for explanations, but
11 explanations better be relevant to the case before the Trial Chamber.
12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I understand what you said, Your
13 Honour, and I remember the Chamber's decision denying our motion for
14 medical examination, but I thought that this is another way to determine
15 the relevant facts through the medical expert, facts which have to do with
16 claims of the witness related to alleged violent intercourse, be it
17 vaginal or anal.
18 I think that this is relevant because it is important for
19 determining all the elements of the charges, both torture and rape; and
20 ultimately, it is also relevant to determining the circumstances which may
21 affect the sentence.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: But the point the Trial Chamber is making is that we
23 don't need all this evidence into the details of what injuries, what all
24 the treatment is relevant and all that, because you have to remember what
25 the Prosecution case is. And if you're worried about sentence, there is a
1 shorter way of doing that.
2 We've already insisted, I think this is the third time or fourth
3 time, that we've got the opinion, the original opinion of the expert. We
4 don't need the details. The Trial Chamber's stand is that this is not
5 relevant to the case before the Trial Chamber. This is not the way the
6 Prosecution case was pleaded.
7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when the Prosecution
8 presented its case through its witnesses, victims, witnesses, that there
9 were frequent multiple and excessive rapes committed by either one
10 perpetrator or different perpetrators, both during the course of one day
11 and during the course of a series of days, I thought that it was relevant
12 to establish whether it is possible for it to have happened the way the
13 witnesses have described. That was my line of questioning with regard to
14 this witness, expert witness. However, if the Trial Chamber does not
15 permit me to question in this way, I shall move in a different direction.
16 I shall not make a problem out of it.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please do move in a different direction and
18 we'll see whether it is relevant.
19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Professor Dunjic, with the approval of the Trial Chamber, you had
21 the opportunity of reading and analysing statements of individual
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. May I remind you of the following: Witness 48 confirmed in her
25 statement that during the violent intercourse that happened, the
1 perpetrator bit the nipples of her breasts until they bled. Can you say
2 anything in relation to injuries that are sustained by that part of a
3 woman's body? Are there permanent injuries involved? Can this kind of
4 injury be verified after a longer period of time?
5 A. Unus morsum, that is to say, injuries inflicted by teeth, by human
6 teeth, bites, are lacerations; that is to say, where the superficial layer
7 of the skin is damaged. Since it was mentioned that there was even
8 bleeding, that is to say that subcutaneous tissue was also affected. I've
9 slowed down for the interpreters, I think.
10 If this kind of an injury occurs on the skin, later, when it
11 heals, there is a scar. This scar can be verified much later, much later,
12 several years later, and it constitutes an objective proof of the fact
13 that there was a wound on that part of the body. What is very important
14 in forensic medicine is that the form of the teeth, of the jaws, either
15 the upper or the lower jaw, is used for identifying the perpetrator of
16 such an injury. When we examine the victim, we can identify possible
17 anomalies of a perpetrator if he is found, so it is of double
18 significance. It is proof of the fact that there was an injury. And if
19 there is a longer period of time and if this wound heals and leaves a
20 scar, we cannot assess when this scar came into being. It has certain
21 characteristics. A bite by human teeth is characteristic and it can be
22 used for identifying the perpetrator.
23 Q. The same witness said that she had a vascular and cerebral
24 insult. Can you tell us whether this incident is related to the alleged
1 A. I would now have to put a counter question: When did the
2 vascular/cerebral insult take place in terms of timing as related to the
4 Q. Unfortunately we do not have this in our evidence.
5 A. Because I cannot bring it into a causal relationship with the rape
6 if it took place later, even immediately after that. On the one hand,
7 there is excitement, but then on the other hand there are factors that
8 lead to apoplexy, that is to say, to cerebral bleeding, so I do not have
9 any relevant information enabling me to comment on this.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, we still feel it's not relevant, the
11 details you are asking the expert to give. Again the Prosecution case is
12 not relying on medical evidence.
13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I know, in
14 the written findings of the expert we cannot find what he just told us, so
15 it was my wish to bring this up now and to acquaint the Trial Chamber with
17 JUDGE MUMBA: We don't need it, actually. We don't need it.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, that particular witness gave what might
19 be called non-expert evidence about her reaction. There was no
20 suggestion, was there -- perhaps you better refresh our memories if there
21 were -- of any examination of a cerebral/vascular nature at the time or
22 subsequently. Is that so?
23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes. My wish was precisely to have
24 this discussed, out of the fear that her --
25 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, please. The question was: There was no
1 evidence from the Prosecution that there was any medical examination of
2 that witness to investigate if there had been some sort of cerebrovascular
3 incident. And please put me right if I'm wrong about that.
4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, you are not wrong about it, and
5 I have understood what you have been saying, but --
6 JUDGE HUNT: If that's so, then -- what you are telling us is that
7 if the Prosecution had wanted to, they -- and had conducted such an
8 investigation, you would have been able to tell from that investigation
9 whether she had in fact had some cerebrovascular incident. That's the
10 whole point of this evidence, as I understand it.
11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I wish to say that in the witness'
12 statement, this cerebrovascular incident of hers was recorded, and I'm
13 afraid that some day the fact that this cerebrovascular insult took place
14 is due to rape. That is why I wanted to find out --
15 JUDGE HUNT: What you are obtaining from this doctor, as I
16 understand his evidence, is that an examination, if done within a
17 reasonable time, would have discovered whether or not there had been a
18 vascular incident. That's so, isn't it? Well, the fact is there was no
19 examination. It is not suggested that an examination ten years after the
20 event would have determined something of real worth. So you are taking us
21 down a completely false line of argument. It's no part of the Prosecution
22 case that they can prove by medical means that she had it or that it
23 related to the rape, so you are fighting a non-issue. That is why we
24 think that this is irrelevant.
25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. May I
1 proceed now?
2 Q. Also let me remind you of Witness 95's statement. She claimed
3 that cigarettes were extinguished on her body. Do you remember that
4 statement, and what can you tell us about that?
5 A. Are you talking about extinguishing or lighting cigarettes?
6 Q. Yes, extinguishing. Extinguishing, of course.
7 A. Extinguishing cigarettes on any part of the body creates a
8 characteristic burn which afflicts the superficial layers of the skin.
9 Once it heals, if there was no infection, it leaves a characteristic scar
10 that is usually circular in shape. I must say that in my practice I've
11 had a large number of cases of persons who were tortured in different
12 ways. I mentioned that I examined such persons. They showed me those
13 scars on their bodies. From a forensic medical point of view, they are
14 characteristic, they are interesting scars, because they are of a regular,
15 circular shape, of course provided that there was no subsequent
16 infection. So if cigarettes were extinguished on a person's body in that
17 way, that is to say that scars were left, they can be verified until the
18 present day. In some way, that is proof that this indeed had occurred.
19 Q. Two witnesses, 87 and 75, mentioned that they were raped anally by
20 several perpetrators on several occasions. Do there have to be permanent
21 consequences in the rectum due to that?
22 JUDGE MUMBA: We've been through that, Mr. Kolesar. If you
23 remember, you did ask the doctor about the effects of violent
24 intercourse: anal, vaginal, and oral. Do you remember at the beginning,
25 and even later on, halfway? And as to whether or not there can be
1 permanent injuries which can be found -- we have been through that,
3 So Witness, don't answer the question.
4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Then I shall conclude.
5 Q. Tell me, please: As a medical expert, can you state, without
6 examining witnesses, victims, anything about the injuries that they
7 sustained due to rape or any other violent actions?
8 A. I think that any person involved in forensic medicine and who are
9 in my place now would say that without an examination it is not possible
10 to establish whether there are any effects of violent sexual intercourse,
11 not only on the genitalia, but on the body in general. It is a well-known
12 fact in forensic medicine that a normal, healthy adult woman can easily,
13 very easily, avoid sexual intercourse.
14 For us, forensic medical experts, that is the only fact that can
15 be commented upon, so I am not in a position to state my views in a
16 decided manner on any particular case from a medical point of view as to
17 whether there were any effects or what kind of effects there were only on
18 the basis of one statement unless I check out all the other facts as a
19 doctor. That is to say, I have to assess the factor of one's build as
20 well as the personality of the person who was being examined. Therefore,
21 for all of this that I study, that I was allowed to study from all these
22 statements of the witnesses who had been heard, I believe that it is
23 necessary, and I think that any forensic medical person in my place would
24 also request an examination in order to establish whether there are
25 effects, and if there are effects, what degree they have and to what
1 extent they go. That is to say, only after having evaluated these
2 effects, somatic and others, can an expert say whether there was violent
3 sexual intercourse or not.
4 Q. And my last question, we submitted this evidence to you with the
5 approval of the Trial Chamber, only for Witness 205 are there medical
6 documents that were attached. Please, the diagnoses that are mentioned in
7 this medical documentation, do they include symptoms that are an effect of
9 A. Yes, that is the only case in which medical documentation was
10 presented. I wrote about this and submitted this in written form to the
11 Trial Chamber.
12 There are elements that could point to the possibility of violent
13 sexual intercourse, that is to say, infection and bleeding. However, all
14 of that, due to the specific nature of the situation involved, can be
15 assessed in some way, and one can see whether this bleeding and this
16 infection is of some other origin. If this infection, if it occurred, and
17 one can see whether it left some consequences, or also this bleeding,
18 whether it is the effect of some internal medical problem from before or
19 whether it is due to violent sexual intercourse.
20 So these are the only facts that can be interpreted for the time
21 being. I interpreted them in writing, but I would have to assess now as
22 an expert whether this is due to the myoma, that is to say, the tumour of
23 the uterus that is mentioned there because that can also lead to bleeding,
24 or whether it is the effect of a violent sexual act.
25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honours. I have
1 no further questions.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, there is a filed opinion with this
3 witness together with Jovanovic. Does he stand by it and his biography
4 also as filed? Can you ask him?
5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand. I
6 omitted something, but thank you for having reminded me.
7 The written findings and the opinion of Dr. Dunjic and
8 Dr. Jovanovic is a concerted effort, and it is not -- and it was admitted
9 into evidence, but only the CV of Dr. Dunjic has to be tendered just as
10 Dr. Aleksandar Jovanovic's CV was tendered and admitted.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. My question is, does -- I'll ask the witness.
12 Do you support your joint opinion with Dr. Jovanovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: I know that it was admitted yesterday and filed, I
15 just wanted this witness, his part of it, to confirm.
16 And the biography, can we have the number, Madam Registrar,
17 please, for Dr. Dunjic?
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The CV of Mr. Dunjic shall be
19 marked as D148.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Cross-examination, if any.
21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry, you also want to ask questions?
23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have two
24 questions, and I informed my colleagues from the office of the Prosecutor
25 about that. These two questions --
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead and ask the witness.
2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Doctor, if we have a situation where, due to
5 mechanical injury, there was a rupture of the testes, can you tell us what
6 the momentary or perhaps lasting effects of such an injury would be? Such
7 an injury, can it make it impossible or difficult to carry out sexual
8 intercourse, and for how long? And can such an injury be detected at
9 present on the condition that it took place seven or eight years ago?
10 A. An injury of the testes in a man is a very painful injury if it is
11 caused by mechanical means, as you mentioned, can lead to different
12 symptoms starting with a rupture, as you said, to the creation of a big
13 hematoma. That kind of injury in principle -- or rather, the healing of
14 such an injury takes long. This acute situation can go on for about a
15 month. However, during that period of time, it is difficult to urinate or
16 do anything that would be physically exhausting. Sexual intercourse is
17 virtually impossible. Even if there is the desire to carry out sexual
18 intercourse, then pain, through its own system, that is to say,
19 unconsciously, can lead to an impossibility of erection for carrying out
20 such sexual intercourse in a short period of time, this can last one month
21 or two months or three months, depending on the gravity of the injury
23 If you're asking me about the later effects of such an injury,
24 they can be established only through an objective medical examination. If
25 there was a rupture of the testes with the creation of hematoma, in such a
1 particular place then a scar is created in such a place, and these scars
2 can be verified at a later date as well.
3 Q. Thank you, doctor.
4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpreted] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
5 further questions.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: I was just about to ask what's the relevance of this
7 evidence. There's no such plea at all.
8 Anyway, can we have cross-examination.
9 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:
11 Q. Good morning, Professor Dunjic. Professor Dunjic, you yourself
12 acknowledge that there is a difference between legal expertise and medical
13 expertise. Isn't that right?
14 A. I don't think that -- I did not use the word "legal expertise."
15 The legal establishment of facts, whereas we establish medical facts.
16 That pertained to the segment where we present medical facts to the Court,
17 whether they exist or whether they do not exist. If I remember correctly,
18 it was mentioned yesterday. Is that right?
19 Q. That's correct Professor Dunjic. You mentioned that there was a
20 doctrine that stated that all rape victims should be medically examined.
21 That doctrine that you mentioned is a medical doctrine, right?
22 A. Yes. That is forensic medical doctrine that victims and suspects
23 have to be medically examined in order to establish the objective facts,
24 whether there are injuries, and if there are injuries, they have to be
25 verified and they have to be interpreted, whether they were created during
1 a particular act or whether they were created later, or perhaps they
2 existed before the act, and now they are being ascribed to that particular
3 act. That is why the examination is carried out. I am talking to you as
4 a physician now.
5 The first and foremost objective of the examination is to help the
6 victim, and then to possibly identify all these traces and verify them,
7 which is relevant to the court in terms of evidence. That is the sense in
8 which I spoke.
9 Q. And on page 2 of your report where you mention that rape must be
10 supported by medical documentation, that is also based on your medical
11 background. That is not something that is legally required, isn't that
12 right, the statement that rape must be supported by medical documentation?
13 A. That is a medical view. That is the view of us doctors of
14 forensic medicine precisely because of this kind of situation.
15 Let me speak in terms of percentage points. Half of the women who
16 report themselves to be rape victims weren't actually raped, and half of
17 them either want to deceive a young man or blackmail him or --
18 Q. Excuse me, Professor, you're here as a medical expert, and please
19 stick with your medical expertise, okay? The Court does not need to hear
20 your speculations on these matters, okay? I asked you a very simple
21 question, and please just answer, and you have. Thank you.
22 Professor Dunjic, wouldn't you agree that the injuries that could
23 be sustained during a rape can be divided into two basic categories:
24 Number one, the injuries sustained during the resistance to the rape, and
25 the other are the injuries sustained through the actual penetration, the
1 act of rape itself, right? Those are two different categories.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if there were an instance of rape where a woman did not
4 physically resist because, for instance, a gun were held to her head, then
5 wouldn't you agree that there would not be any physical injuries of
7 A. I would agree only if I would not find them. I have to carry out
8 an examination in order to ascertain that something does not exist. It is
9 only when I examine that I can say that something exists or does not
10 exist, regardless of the way in which something was carried out.
11 A forensic medical expert can only comment on a fact that he
12 establishes or does not establish. So something either exists or does not
13 exist. If it does not exist, of course I do not make any comments; there
14 are no injuries, and then it is up to the legal people to ascertain how
15 this took place.
16 I can only ascertain whether there was sexual intercourse or
17 whether there was not sexual intercourse, whether there were injuries or
18 whether there were not injuries, but only once I carry out an
19 examination. Until then, I cannot make any comment at all.
20 Of course, serious threats such as having a person held at
21 gunpoint, there can be no injuries on the body that were due to
22 resistance, and also perhaps not even on the genitalia, but I cannot say
23 that. I cannot know that until I examine a person. That is why we as
24 doctors insist upon an examination.
25 Q. Thank you, Professor.
1 Now, within the category of injuries that could occur as a result
2 of the rape itself, and in your report you detailed redness and soreness
3 and abrasions, isn't it true that these type of injuries disappear very
4 quickly and, in fact, according to your report, perhaps within two weeks
5 of the injury?
6 A. Well, yes, in a very short interval, they disappear. But again, I
7 must underline that this depends on the intensity and size, magnitude of
8 these injuries. If the injuries are smaller, then redness, hematoma,
9 abrasion will relatively pass sooner; but if they are deeper and bigger,
10 then they will last longer, and then there's the possibility of secondary
11 infection and other complications. And if they are very pronounced in
12 terms of deeper wounds, injuries, then they leave as an effect scars; and
13 they can be identified later, these scars, as indirect evidence of the
14 fact that there had been a wound there in that place.
15 Q. Professor, isn't it true that in the vast majority of rape cases,
16 the injuries disappear within a very short period of time, two weeks? The
17 scars -- I understand and we'll talk about that later, the scars that have
18 lasting effect. But isn't it true that in the vast majority of rape
19 cases, these kind of scars [sic] disappear very quickly?
20 A. Well, wounds. I mean, there is not a reliable percentage from the
21 point of view of medicine, that is to say, that these changes that occur
22 due to rape heal quickly. I cannot say what the percentage is of women
23 whose wounds heal quickly. Of course, there is a normal process of
24 healing of these wounds, but I can comment upon them only if I confirm
25 them before that, or preclude the possibility of them having taken place.
1 And I can establish that only through direct examination.
2 So it can be accepted conditionally that quite a few of them pass
3 quickly if someone did conduct an examination. Many women do not report
4 that they had been raped, and this goes by unnoticed. That,
5 unfortunately, is the greatest tragedy today, that things like that do
6 take place today. However, I must say as a forensic man who is in the
7 role of an expert who is supposed to confirm something or deny something,
8 I have to have objective findings for each and every individual case.
9 That is to say, that if someone claims to have been raped and to have had
10 prolonged bleeding, I have to accept this fact, examine it, analyse it,
11 and to see whether it is related to the ailment itself or the act of rape.
12 Q. Professor, we are not asking you or I am not asking you at this --
13 in this case to make a specific finding on a specific case, so please rest
14 assured about that. I'm asking you a general question in your expertise
15 about how the body functions. And isn't it true that the kind of injuries
16 you're talking about to the genitalia, an area of the body where there is
17 a lot of blood flow, those kind of injuries tend quite naturally to heal.
18 That's what the body does, right? You're nodding your head.
19 A. That is correct. That is correct.
20 Q. In a rare number of cases, as you have described, there may be
21 some scar from deep muscle or tissue injury; right? You've discussed
22 that. Yes or no?
23 A. I cannot give you such a simple answer in rare cases, because no
24 one had put this into tables and percentage points until now. If there
25 are wounds that leave scars, we will find them. I cannot say what the
1 percentage is in relation to the number of women raped as far as such
2 wounds are concerned. That is why I cannot give you a direct answer in
3 terms of yes or no.
4 Q. In your --
5 A. At any rate --
6 Q. Professor Dunjic, you have established your credentials as an
7 expert in this field through your years of experience, and I would ask you
8 to draw on that experience in examining rape victims to tell us whether
9 you have found it common -- and I use that as a layman. I don't ask you
10 for a specific percentage, but I ask you whether you find it to be common
11 for there to be deep scars from rape that persist after eight years. Do
12 you find that common?
13 A. No. I must say that this does not happen very often, because when
14 I worked, the conditions under which I worked -- I mean, these were
15 individual rapes of one perpetrator raping one woman. Since you reminded
16 me of my experience, I must say that I did have the opportunity of talking
17 to women who were raped by a large number of men; however -- in a
18 situation of war, in a situation of war, when I studied torture, and most
19 of these women had wounds on their bodies that were -- that took place
20 during -- that were sustained during the rape itself. They were beaten
21 when defending themselves or during the rape itself.
22 On the genitalia, when I examined them -- this was a year or two
23 after the rape -- they most often did not have menstruation at all or they
24 had irregular periods, and also there were wounds on their genitalia.
25 However, I must underline that none of these persons who had had frequent
1 violent sexual intercourse did not mention [as interpreted] during the
2 anamnesis that she had had long-term bleeding or wounds of the genitalia.
3 They had wounds on their bodies and around the genitalia, as we had
4 divided them before.
5 Q. And the incidents that you're describing or the cases that you're
6 describing, you said were medical examinations one or two years after the
7 incident, right, just so I'm clear about that.
8 A. Yes. And if you will permit me, this in a way complicates a
9 possibility of determining the case, that is, the passage of time.
10 However, the mental effects or consequences are very difficult, and they
11 rise. As the bodily injuries subside, the mental traumas or the effects
12 of such an act increase. This is why we did a comparative examination of
13 both the mental and bodily examination of such victims.
14 Q. So what you're saying, then, Professor, is that there are
15 injuries, psychological injuries, even pain, which cannot be determined by
16 a physical examination; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, let's talk about the passage of time, as you have brought
19 up. If you were to find injuries, such as scars, in the genitalia eight
20 years after an event occurred, you would not be able to link that scar to
21 a specific incident of rape, could you? I mean, there could have been
22 intervening causes; right?
23 A. Yes, that is correct. However, this is why a medical examination
24 is conducted in the first place. We first try to do an exploration or an
25 examination of a person and then we also compare it with information that
1 we have on what had happened until that point. Now, then taking into
2 account all these facts and lining them up, we can establish with a larger
3 or a lesser degree of probability that the scar which has been identified,
4 if it had been identified, may be connected to this forcible sexual
5 intercourse or not. But it is up to a physician to make such an
6 assessment and present it.
7 Q. Well, Doctor, I know that you're resisting making any sort of
8 conclusions about an individual case, so I'm going to ask you these
9 questions in a purely hypothetical way, and so I would wish you to answer
10 it in a purely --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If a woman had been raped and did not seek medical attention
13 because she didn't want to have to discuss this with anyone, it would be
14 logical, wouldn't it, that there wouldn't have been a medical examination
15 done very soon after the incident? Just a "yes" or "no." If she doesn't
16 seek it, it doesn't exist.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And if circumstances prevented her from seeking medical
19 examination, likewise, no medical results shortly after the incident would
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If a medical examination were to be done on that woman several
23 years later, would those results, whether there be a scar found or not, be
24 helpful at all in determining whether the incident of rape actually
25 occurred, let's say, hypothetically, eight years earlier? Or would there
1 be too many intervening causes that would prevent you from reaching any
2 sort of medical conclusion about the cause of, let's say, again
3 hypothetically, a scar in the genitalia? There are too many variables in
4 that case for you to say for sure, isn't that right, that rape occurred or
5 that rape did not occur?
6 A. I cannot determine whether the rape did occur or not. It is up to
7 you. What I can determine are the facts which may assist you to establish
8 the truth, whether such injuries did take place or not. But the point
9 that I'm trying to get across here -- and I speak on behalf of my
10 profession here -- I need to conduct an examination in order to be able at
11 all to give you an opportunity to reach such conclusion or not.
12 I need to take you back to -- we keep talking about scars, scar
13 tissue, injuries. I told you what types of injuries may occur in which
14 situations. But what is much more important -- and you legal
15 professionals always subject us medical professionals -- you always
16 criticise us on this -- we have to establish whether sexual intercourse
17 was possible at all, whether the person had the physical constitution.
18 For instance, very young persons have underdeveloped sexual organs.
19 Forcible sexual intercourse produces very serious injuries in and around
20 sexual organs, and that has to be established. In addition, we have
21 infections and further complications. So first I have to establish that a
22 person is physically mature enough to be able to have sexual intercourse.
23 Then I have to proceed and establish whether there were any
24 injuries due to a forcible intercourse. Then I also take into account
25 other medical health conditions, childbirth or any other things. I have
1 to take that into account. And after I have established all these facts,
2 I turn that over to you, and you will be able then to determine and
3 establish if a rape had occurred or not. That is my role.
4 Q. Thank you, Professor. Professor Dunjic, you mentioned some
5 anatomical malformations as well as functional malformations that might
6 make sexual intercourse impossible. Those malformations are
7 abnormalities, isn't that right, to use another word? They're not the
8 norm; you would not expect that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, turning to some questions that Mr. Jovanovic asked you:
11 Isn't it true that the rupture of the testes, which was posed to you,
12 could mean that a man would require manual or oral stimulation of his
13 penis to get an erection?
14 A. No manual or oral stimulation can help in such cases. There may
15 be desire, but due to very intense pain, it is impossible to reach an
16 erection because of the pain. It is very painful and our will has to be
17 involved in that. Over a longer period of time, such a situation may
18 produce impotence in a man, of shorter term or even long term.
19 Q. Let me rephrase the question, then. In such a physical situation,
20 whether there's a rupture of the testes -- actually, let me get this
21 clarified. Is that also -- could that be described as an injury to the
22 scrotum or is that completely different?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Kuo, do you find this relevant or is it because
24 the question was posed by Mr. Jovanovic?
25 MS. KUO: It's both, Your Honour. We have some witness statements
1 from Defence witnesses that bring this subject up in regard to the accused
3 JUDGE MUMBA: The witnesses who are yet to come?
4 MS. KUO: Yes, and this is why we believe that there is some
5 relevance to it.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber is a bit sceptical, but the
7 point is the accused himself didn't give evidence to lead to this type of
8 defence at all. You can go ahead.
9 MS. KUO: Perhaps just to let the Court know -- and please, if
10 Mr. Vukovic's lawyers object to our bringing this up at this point, they
11 can -- we are in possession of some witness statements from the Defence
12 for Mr. Vukovic that state that Mr. Vukovic had these kinds of injuries,
13 and I believe that their defence is therefore it was impossible for him to
14 have raped women. And since we believe that the rapes did occur, we would
15 like to establish this.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You go ahead. But the point is, he himself
17 didn't give any evidence to that. But go ahead.
18 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Just to clarify, a rupture to the testes is the same as an injury
20 to the scrotum, or is it completely different?
21 A. The scrotum is the skin which envelops the testes. The
22 scrotum -- an injury to the scrotum is implied in an injury of testes. It
23 is like having a walnut and its shell, if you will.
24 Q. Thank you, Professor. Then let me ask you the question. Are you
25 saying, then, that if a man had such an injury, a rupture of the testes,
1 and such an injury to the scrotum, that he would still have the desire to
2 have sexual stimulation and may even attempt to have his penis stimulated,
3 even if it were unsuccessful, that he might attempt to have his penis
4 nevertheless stimulated even if he did not achieve erection, full
5 erection? Yes?
6 A. Yes. I said that he may have desire but no ability to reach an
7 erection, and the pain is such that he very quickly abandons the attempt.
8 Q. And finally, Professor Dunjic, you described how in some cases it
9 would be necessary to make an examination of an accused. In this case you
10 did not perform any medical examination of any of the accused; isn't that
12 A. No, I did not, but I am prepared to do so if I am allowed or asked
13 to do so. There is no reason not to.
14 MS. KUO: Thank you very much. No further questions.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?
16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Doctor, for giving your
18 testimony to the Tribunal. You are free. You may go.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, witness. Please make the solemn
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare
25 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: SANDA RASKOVIC-IVIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please be seated.
4 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Raskovic.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Will you please state your full name and give us your profession?
8 A. My name is Dr. Sanda Raskovic-Ivic, psychiatrist and
9 psychotherapist. I work at the psychiatric hospital, and I'm the director
10 of the centre for psychoses, and I'm also a, I'm also a doctor.
11 Q. Witness, the Trial Chamber has your curriculum vitae and your
12 publications. I will ask you to very briefly list your professional
14 A. As I said, I'm a psychiatrist and psychotherapist. In addition to
15 my PhD, I have a book on aggression and somewhere between 50 and 60 of
16 scientific articles from various fields, but my speciality are
17 psychological traumas and their consequences, and I have been involved in
18 that since 1991 when I became a refugee myself, leaving Zagreb to come to
19 Belgrade. This is when I first engaged in this topic, and I mostly
20 specialised in tracking female victims of these events.
21 In 1994 I was in the United States and Canada where I worked with
22 the organisation called "Voice of Women." I gave some lectures in the
23 so-called rape centres and at some universities, and this collaboration
24 continues today in a more sporadic way.
25 My interest in the topic of rape dates back from before 1991. In
1 Zagreb I worked with rape victims in peacetime situation, and then after
2 1992 I did a lot of research in -- of rapes in the wartime situations.
3 Q. You said that since 1994 you have especially worked with female
4 victims of rape and wartime traumas. Can you give us some idea of what
5 your work has led you to conclude in that respect?
6 A. I can break down my work with the female victims into two stages.
7 I worked with these women immediately after their traumatic experiences,
8 but as I am a psychotherapist, I engaged in psychotherapy and long-term
9 psychotherapeutic treatment of the victims of war. In fact, what I am
10 involved in are the effects of these traumas, the effects of traumas
11 suffered by women, of women, and they can be grouped in three categories.
12 One are the minor consequences, and then medium consequences, and serious
14 The minor consequences consist of social isolation, nightmares,
15 insomnia, difficulties in establishing the so-called object relations,
16 which is a professional term for love relations. Women find it very hard
17 to establish such relations following these traumas, and psychotherapy
18 helps in that.
19 The medium range consequences are phobias, depressions; and the
20 serious consequences are psychoses, including two categories. One is
21 psychotic depression, and one is paranoid syndrome.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, before we go ahead. Could we have the CV
23 and the expert opinion admitted into evidence, if that is your wish? They
24 were filed, but they are not admitted into evidence. Do you wish to do
25 that now?
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was going to
2 tender them at the end of my examination, but following your suggestion,
3 I'm going to do it now.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the Prosecution?
5 MS. KUO: No objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the numbers for the CV and the expert
8 I was looking through the expert opinion. I need some help from
9 the Prosecution. Is there anything discussed here which was taken from a
10 statement which was admitted under seal so that the same protection can
11 hold? Is there anything in the opinion of this witness?
12 MS. KUO: I believe anytime there is reference made to the
13 individual witnesses, those were all taken from the statements of the
14 witnesses rather than open testimony.
15 JUDGE HUNT: The question was, were the statements admitted under
17 MS. KUO: I believe all the statements were admitted under seals,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, to protect their identity.
20 MS. KUO: That's correct.
21 JUDGE HUNT: So is any of the information that has been reproduced
22 in this opinion material which should not be made public? None of it
23 identifies the witness other than by number.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because only the numbers are used, so --
25 MS. KUO: I understand that, Your Honour. I guess I'm a little
1 bit confused. At the point when the witness statements were admitted at
2 trial, the statements in their entirety were sealed.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but --
4 MS. KUO: So --
5 JUDGE HUNT: -- the question you are being asked is whether we
6 need to have this document under seal. That's the point. And if there is
7 anything in it which reveals material which should not be revealed, it
8 will have to go under seal. That was the point of the question that was
9 asked of you. It shouldn't be a difficult question to answer.
10 MS. KUO: It is slightly difficult, Your Honour, because I'm not
11 sure what the ramifications are from the Court ruling that the statement
12 be sealed. If the entire statement is sealed by this Court and the
13 witness is therefore relying on those documents, regardless of my --
14 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, no. They were all cross-examined on.
15 Ms. Pilipovic used to take us through sentence by sentence.
16 I really don't see what the problem is. If all of this material
17 was revealed in public, the fact that they were sealed doesn't really
19 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour. Under those circumstances, for
20 that purpose, there's not a problem. However, there are some witnesses
21 who testified in closed session, and for those witnesses there may be a
23 JUDGE MUMBA: So we should have the opinion -- or maybe we can
24 decide it later.
25 MS. KUO: We can certainly decide it on a case by case. I can
1 give you the numbers of the witnesses who testified under seal, if you
2 would like.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the numbers of the CV first and the
4 expert opinion?
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The CV shall be marked as D149,
6 and the expert opinion shall be marked as D150.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE MUMBA: So my instructions are that to be on the safe side,
9 the CV will be open; the opinion will be temporarily under seal until the
10 Prosecution advise the specific paragraphs. Otherwise, it will be open,
11 but for the moment it's under seal.
12 Can we proceed? What I want to explain to you, counsel, is, and
13 to the witness as well, this expert opinion by yourself is received into
14 evidence, and is quite detailed. As you can see, counsel, it goes up to
15 28 pages. So the Trial Chamber does not wish to have a repetition of what
16 you have written here because it is already entered into evidence on
17 record, so all that we shall be asking counsel to do is perhaps to seek
18 clarification of a few matters that you have discussed here, not the
19 details, because we already have them here, and we don't want a
20 repetition. All right, counsel?
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's perfectly
22 clear, and I am only going to ask several questions to try to clarify a
23 few points, to just simply take advantage of Dr. Raskovic-Ivic's presence
25 Q. You mentioned some of the effects that you found with rape
1 victims, and you said that there are always psychological changes that
2 follow rapes.
3 A. Unfortunately, I have seen no rape victim who did not suffer
4 psychological consequences.
5 Q. You said that serious consequences included --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can you wait? The interpreters are having
7 a problem. You wait after the witness has finished, then you can start.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Can you hear the translation as it's going? I can
9 hear it without even --
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear it very well.
11 JUDGE HUNT: So just wait until it's finished, and then ask the
12 question. Mr. Kolesar should do the same.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that we're still not
14 properly focussed, perhaps.
15 Q. When discussing consequences suffered by the rape victims, if I
16 understood you correctly, the serious consequences include psychoses?
17 A. Yes, psychoses of a depressive [realtime transcript read in error
18 "key pressive"] and paranoid type. To avoid any confusion, schizophrenia
19 is not a consequence of rape, only the other two, depression and paranoid
21 Q. In your expert opinion, does the lack of such consequences
22 preclude the existence of rape?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do the consequences which you have described as serious, can such
25 consequences disappear without therapy?
1 A. Unfortunately, a psychoses is a condition that requires a
2 multidisciplinary psychiatric treatment, both psychotherapy and also
3 medication, and unfortunately, it cannot disappear without a very
4 consequently run treatment.
5 Q. If there is a victim who describes symptoms of such psychological
6 changes, can we determine whether there are serious consequences of such a
7 trauma, of such a victim based on those statements?
8 A. If the victim is showing symptoms which can be identified as
9 paranoid or depressive, we can talk -- we can say that they -- it, it does
10 exist, but we need to also provide medical examination.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
12 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, on page 32, row 24 and 25, there is a
13 proposed question, and the response on the page 33, row 1, is "no." As I
14 heard, the expert witness answered "yes."
15 JUDGE MUMBA: The question is, "In your expert opinion, does the
16 lack of such consequences preclude the existence of rape," and the answer
17 we have recorded is "no," which appears to be --
18 JUDGE HUNT: We better ask the witness again.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can you ask the witness again. But it's a
20 question following the context of the earlier discussion.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 Q. If there is no psychosis --
23 A. The answer is no. There are -- the question is --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, can the question and answer be
25 repeated again?
1 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreter is asking that can the question and
2 the answer be repeated because the interpreter didn't pick up the question
3 and the answer. Can you just repeat the question we were discussing as to
4 whether the answer was "yes" or "no."
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just clear that? Can we just clear that?
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I just don't know whether the
8 interpreters did not hear the previous question before this question that
9 I'm putting now.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: It was the question that Ms. Lopicic talked about.
11 Yes, maybe we adjourn now. You go through the transcript.
12 JUDGE HUNT: I've got it here. The question was, "In your expert
13 opinion, does the lack of such consequences," that's schizophrenia,
14 "preclude the existence of rape?" And the answer was --
15 A. No, not schizophrenia.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Not schizophrenia, psychosis?
18 A. Psychosis.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Let's go back. Can I read them to you?
20 "Q. When discussing consequences suffered by the rape
21 victims, if I understood you correctly, the serious
22 consequences including psychoses?
23 A. Yes, psychoses are the `key pressive' and paranoid type."
24 I don't think that's properly recorded.
25 "To avoid any confusion, schizophrenia is not a consequence of
1 rape, only the other two, depression and paranoid syndrome."
2 Now, that was either a question or an answer; it's not clear. Then:
3 "Q. In your expert opinion, does the lack of such
4 consequences preclude the existence of rape?"
5 And the answer recorded is "no."
6 Now, Ms. Lopcic said she heard the answer as "yes," and what we
7 have suggested was, is you might like to ask her that series of questions
8 again, perhaps after the break, so that the witness can give us what
9 she --
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 JUDGE HUNT: -- said, however it might have been interpreted.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: So we'll break off now.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: And we'll resume our proceedings at 11.30 this
16 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are continuing with examination-in-chief of
19 the expert witness. Counsel, please continue.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Does rape always have to lead to psychological changes in the
23 A. Yes. Rape always has to lead to psychological changes in the
25 Q. When you were explaining the consequences in victims of rape, you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 mentioned three types of consequences, and if I understood you correctly,
2 among the grave psychological consequences you count psychosis.
3 A. Correct. Psychoses are the gravest psychological change which
4 appear as late sequels, late consequences of the act of rape.
5 Q. Does the absence of such psychosis in alleged victims of rape mean
6 that there are no grave consequences?
7 A. Yes. If there are no psychoses, then there are no grave
9 Q. Do consequences which you described as grave and serious, can they
10 disappear without treatment, without psychotherapy?
11 A. Regrettably not. Psychological consequences can hardly disappear
12 spontaneously without psychotherapy, but if psychoses appear, they require
13 combined psychiatric treatment, pharmacotherapy, and psychotherapy. So
14 there can be no spontaneous cure; it cannot just go away by itself.
15 Q. By approval of the Trial Chamber, you had the opportunity to
16 familiarise yourself with witness statements, with the testimony of
17 Witnesses 48, 50, 75, 87, 190, 205, and 175.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us, did you encounter in their testimonies any data
20 which would say that any of them had treatment?
21 A. In the statements of those witnesses, I did not find any medical
22 documentation or their own statements to the effect that they had received
23 treatment or psychotherapy. One of the witnesses states that she had
24 received psychotherapy from her sister, but I can say here that Freud said
25 that psychotherapy cannot be given by a close friend or a relative.
1 Psychotherapy can be administered to a patient or a client by a person who
2 is unbiased, who is not a close friend or a relative, and the only
3 psychotherapy that can be given by close friends or relatives is hypnosis,
4 according to Milton Ericson. It may have been a conversation, a
5 well-intended attempt to help the victim, but it cannot be called
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, don't have the witness repeat what is here,
8 because her answer is already here. She shouldn't be asked to repeat what
9 is already here. It's already on record.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I only
11 wanted, with some brief questions, to make a summary of all the witness
12 statements and note whether or not they had received treatment.
13 Q. So from the viewpoint of your profession, the stress that was
14 suffered due to the incident can cause amnesia or difficulties in
16 A. Yes, it can cause amnesia or difficulties in remembering the
17 incident which led to the stress.
18 Q. Does this inability to remember in some witnesses, whose
19 statements you had the opportunity to see, can this inability to remember
20 be interpreted as being their lack of desire to answer questions?
21 A. Yes. It can also be avoidance of answers. Inability to remember
22 may be also caused by reluctance to answer questions, to discuss the
23 incident, or it can be the consequence of the stress itself.
24 Q. As far as I understood, amnesia or inability to remember may be
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you please answer: What are the consequences, and how are
3 they related to the act of rape itself, and what are the consequences of
4 torture and what is their correlation?
5 A. As a psychiatrist, I usually deal with late consequences of rape.
6 Literature in this area is inconsistent, and statistical figures go
7 between 30 and 60 per cent, and literature most often mentions the
8 percentage of 30, 30 per cent of women in wartime develops later, delayed
9 consequences of rape, and these consequences are all the harder and all
10 the more intense if rape was combined with torture. So these would be the
11 delayed consequences of rape.
12 Q. If you have in front of you a person who says that in a period of
13 40 days she was raped by 150 men, can such a person be communicating with
14 you without you noticing that she had suffered any changes, physical or
16 A. I would say that would be impossible because I have had experience
17 with women who were raped in peacetime and in wartime, and if a woman was
18 raped by 150 men, no matter in what -- no matter what the duration of the
19 period was, she would be certain to have very serious physical
20 consequences, let alone psychological consequences. That is an enormous
21 attack on the psyche of each woman, and that would lead to such serious
22 consequences that it could not but be obvious.
23 Q. Finally, could you give us a final conclusion. What would be your
24 professional opinion based on the expertise you have conducted?
25 A. I have read the statements of these women, and it was very
1 difficult for me, both as a psychiatrist and as a woman, to come to a
2 definite conclusion. All these stories are very painful, but still I have
3 not been able to detect the grave consequences one would expect to arise
4 from incidents described by the witnesses.
5 What surprised me was the lack of medical documentation, the
6 absence of psychological testing, psychological exploration, and certainly
7 the lack of psychological treatment of these persons, especially since
8 they had gone to third countries since that time, third countries in which
9 psychological treatment is available and common.
10 As you lawyers say, "Quid non es in actus non es in mundo"; "What
11 is not in enactments not does not exist in the world," so what is not
12 stated in medical documentation, or if there is a lack of medical
13 documentation, that means that the thing didn't happen at all. It is very
14 hard for me to say this, but there is no medical documentation, or I have
15 not seen it.
16 So there is a large void, a large -- a major divergence between
17 the stories of the witnesses and the medical documentation which would
18 attest to consequences which had to develop if all these things had indeed
19 happened. I cannot come to any conclusions or preempt decisions, but I
20 can really not say what that was all about.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished with
22 the questioning. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel who wishes to ask questions of
24 this witness? Yes, Mr. Kolesar. Not asking the witness to repeat what is
25 already here and what has already been stated through the questioning of
1 your colleague.
2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understood all your
3 concerns and comments. I will ask one direct question which is not
4 covered by the report and has been raised today partially.
5 Examined by Mr. Kolesar:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon. As I said, I will ask you a
7 direct question.
8 Today when you were answering a question asked by my colleague,
9 you spoke about the phenomenon of amnesia. You had the opportunity to
10 read the statement of Witness 87. I will remind you that this witness,
11 allegedly against her will, was 40 days in one apartment. It was the
12 apartment of Mr. Kovac.
13 Two events are important to me and have to do with the phenomenon
14 of amnesia. The first thing is, when she was forced to undress and to
15 dance naked on the table, and when she was asked by the Prosecutor to give
16 more details, the witness just repeated that she had to undress and dance
17 naked and would give no more details.
18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpreted] That, I will remind the Court, was
19 discussed on the 4th of April this year.
20 Q. The second statement was that they were to be taken naked through
21 the city, and the witness later said that they rarely went to the city,
22 but they were fully dressed. When asked by the Prosecutor, the witness
23 said she did not remember.
24 I'm asking you, is it possible for the witness not to remember and
25 not to give any details?
1 A. I already said that inability to remember may be a disease, or it
2 may be a reluctance to discuss things, or it may be manipulative. Without
3 medical documentation, of course, I cannot give you a conclusion or an
4 expert opinion because the girl only said she did not remember, but since
5 there is no -- there has been no psychological exploration at all or
6 medical examination, I cannot say whether her amnesia is caused by -- is
7 psychological in nature, whether she developed it as a mechanism of
8 defence, or it is manipulative.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination, if any.
11 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:
12 Q. Good morning, Dr. Raskovic-Ivic. In your testimony today, you
13 stated that all rape victims suffer psychological consequences. Isn't it
14 true that all suffer differently?
15 A. Yes. Women suffer differently because the capacity to adapt of
16 every person -- I'm not talking about women only, I'm talking about human
17 kind, I'm talking about human beings. The capacity to adapt of every
18 person in the world is different; therefore, suffering is different, but
19 psychological consequences have to remain.
20 Q. You discussed the different effects of trauma, the three different
21 types, the minor, medium, and serious, correct? In your report --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In your report, you focussed very much on post-traumatic syndrome
24 or post-traumatic stress disorder, whichever term you wish, correct?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And I just want to have a few things clarified with regard to that
2 particular disorder. It's not true, is it, that every woman who has been
3 raped will develop post-traumatic stress syndrome. Some will not?
4 A. Exactly. Not every woman has to develop post-traumatic stress
5 syndrome, nor does every woman have to develop late consequences, delayed
6 sequels. One per cent -- a certain percentage, that is to say, 30 per
7 cent of all women concerned develop later consequences of the rape, not of
8 the post-traumatic stress syndrome. Some are due to the post-traumatic
9 stress syndrome. However, sometimes women, let us call it the
10 post-traumatic stress syndrome, they sometimes go through that by
11 resorting to other defence mechanisms, trying to adapt in a different way,
12 and this leads to the development of maladaptive systems which later on
13 lead to yet other sequels that then can be divided into the three types I
15 Q. Now, one of the hallmarks of post-traumatic stress syndrome is
16 airing a traumatic incident, right? In other words, if you fail to
17 discuss the incident, you're more likely to have problems later, correct?
18 A. As far as the post-traumatic stress syndrome is concerned, there
19 is a need to discuss it. However, it is better to talk about it than to
20 keep silent about it, to sweep it under the rug, because if you do not
21 speak about it, if you do not testify about it, if you conceal it,
22 concealing symptoms can later lead to graver consequences.
23 I did not deal in post-traumatic stress syndrome very much, I
24 dealt with the later consequences that occur. I am a psychotherapist. I
25 deal with women who had already left the war zones, who had somehow healed
1 their bodies, and then under the pressure of psychological symptoms, they
2 came to see me. I am talking from the point of view of later consequences
3 of rape, not later consequences of the post-traumatic stress syndrome.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. Would the witness please move the
5 microphone a little bit away from her face? You can hear her breathing,
6 which is very distracting, if I may say so.
7 A. I do apologise, I do apologise.
8 MS. KUO:
9 Q. So generally, Dr. Raskovic-Ivic, if a person were able to talk
10 about a traumatic experience such as a rape, the likelihood of that person
11 being able to adapt in one's life would be greater, in general; is that
13 A. The likelihood of a person being able to adapt in one's life would
14 be greater if that person talked, but it is very important who that person
15 talks to. It is not all the same whether the person talks to a
16 professional, that is to say, a psychiatrist or a psychologist, who will
17 guide that person and help her develop such mechanisms of defence that
18 will be constructive, whereby she will be able to enter a normal life.
19 Or, on the other hand, if she talks to her women friends, her neighbours,
20 her family, that would certainly make her situation easier, but that can
21 be a double-edged sword. She can also sink into different defence
22 mechanisms that can lead to an even graver state of mind.
23 Q. So again, in general, it's better to seek professional help, but
24 speaking to anybody who is a supportive person helps; correct?
25 A. It helps. Talking helps. The Bible even says so: "At first
1 there was the word, and the word came from God." But I think that a
2 psychiatrist and a psychologist are indispensable for taking part in the
3 process that follows after rape.
4 Q. Isn't it true, Doctor, that there are many women, indeed very many
5 individuals, who are reluctant to seek psychiatric professional help, for
6 whatever reason?
7 A. Of course. There are many persons who are reluctant to seek
8 psychiatric and psychological help. I know that the best, because I dealt
9 with rape even in peacetime a long time ago, and I must say that rape and
10 incest are two of the best-kept secrets of women. Especially in the
11 Balkan culture, women are very reluctant to discuss this and they require
12 a great deal of time to decide to discuss it ultimately. However, I think
13 that any woman who reports anywhere, to some institution, wherever, should
14 receive psychiatric and psychological treatment immediately. That is to
15 say that society should take care of this, providing her medical help, I
16 mean psychiatric help. When I'm saying "medical help," I'm really saying
17 psychiatric help. I'm talking about my own profession.
18 Q. Let's put psychosis aside and talk about the other consequences of
19 trauma. Isn't it true that these consequences could, on their own, work
20 themselves out over time and indeed enable -- disappear, so that the
21 victim can lead a normal life or what appears to be a normal life?
22 A. You see, you mentioned something which seems to be normal life, as
23 if, as if it were normal life. It's the "as if" that is the problem. A
24 lot of energy is required to have a woman who had been raped, especially
25 in wartime, to return to professional rehabilitation, that is to say, to
1 take her back to school, to continue her studies or continue working.
2 Emotional rehabilitation is a major problem, that is to say, to
3 establish an object relationship, that is to say a relationship of
4 confidence and trust with the opposite sex. My experience with women, and
5 I believe that I have had a great deal of such experience, shows that
6 professional rehabilitation can somehow take place; however, emotional
7 rehabilitation is a very tricky thing and it cannot pass just like that.
8 I think that it requires a great deal of help, long-term psychiatric
9 support, confidence that is created, so that actually in the process of
10 therapy, the person concerned experiences all of that that was lived
11 through. Then there is re-establishment of trust and confidence in the
12 object, and that is the male person.
13 Q. You are familiar with the phrase "doctors treat and nature cures";
15 A. Yes. Yes, of course. That is a phrase that is quite true;
16 however, without doctors, I don't think that nature could do what we
17 expect it to do.
18 Q. Isn't it true that after a traumatic event there are people who
19 simply get over it and go on living?
20 A. I treated women for the most part. I am linked to women's
21 organisations, so I mostly deal with this particular subject matter. I
22 told you a few minutes ago that going on with one's life is something that
23 may only appear to be so. If you see a girl who had been raped, and if
24 she continues to work as a nurse after that, or as a professor or I don't
25 know what, you do not know everything about her life. I think that the
1 key problem is emotional rehabilitation and finding a partner
2 relationship, which is very difficult. There are women who, in spite of
3 psychotherapy, have still not managed to establish partner relationships.
4 They live and work and everything seems normal, but they do not have
5 love. They do not have the love of a partner. They are unable to
6 establish that kind of a relationship.
7 Q. You have encountered women in your experience who were victims of
8 rape who have gone on to marry; correct?
9 A. I must say that I worked with women who were married and women who
10 were unmarried and who were raped. Only one of the girls who were
11 unmarried found a boyfriend, and it was now after the bombing, and she was
12 raped in 1992. The others did not manage to establish a permanent
13 relationship based on partnership. Many of them did not have any sexual
14 intercourse after the rape. And women who were married have great
15 difficulty in returning to the marital beds of their husbands, and there
16 are two from my experience who have not even told their husbands what had
17 happened to them. So they take tranquillisers in order to be able to have
18 sex with their husbands. That is merely having sex. That is not enjoying
19 sex. So practically in order to keep their marriages alive, that is what
20 they resort to.
21 In my practice, I have not seen -- I mean, I hope, I hope that
22 this will be the case, but I have not seen in my practice that women after
23 that would fully recuperate, rehabilitate, get married, have children,
24 especially without professional assistance.
25 Q. Are you saying, Doctor, that a person who has been raped will
1 never, ever love again?
2 A. No, I'm not saying that. I hope that that person will love again,
3 but I'm sure that it will be very difficult for her to love with full
4 confidence. It's a question of confidence.
5 Q. And these are among the consequences of rape; correct?
6 A. Of course. Of course. These are among the consequences. So, you
7 see, even such grave things that happen in one's life are classified as
8 minor consequences.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned psychosis. Psychosis is completely different
10 from post-traumatic stress syndrome; isn't that right?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. And that's a severe form of mental illness that must be treated by
13 psychological -- through professional psychological help; correct?
14 A. Exactly. That is the gravest form of mental illness, and
15 psychiatric help is indispensable.
16 Q. And psychosis is outside the norm; right? That is not the first
17 thing you would expect in a person?
18 A. Of course that is not the first thing, because the gravest illness
19 is not the first thing that a doctor would expect. That is one of the
20 gravest consequences, so it happens the most seldom, but regrettably it
21 does happen.
22 Q. Now, you mentioned that amnesia can be one of the consequences of
23 a trauma such as rape.
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. You, upon questioning from Defence counsel, said that amnesia can
1 be manipulative, to use your word; in other words, a kind of selective
2 memory. Right?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. But wouldn't you also agree that amnesia can be genuine, that one
5 could genuinely forget certain things because of stress and time?
6 A. Of course. That's what I said. Amnesia can be manipulative. But
7 I ranked that third. It can be one's wish not to say something that one
8 does not wish to say, or it can belong to psychiatric illnesses; it can be
9 an effect of the trauma. However, I cannot say what is the case here,
10 because I don't have medical documentation, but even on the basis of
11 medical documentation I could not be quite definite on it. But now,
12 without having conversed with these persons and without having medical
13 documents, I cannot say what this is all about. I can only say what
14 exists here. I can just enumerate all the reasons that can lead to
15 amnesia, what the reasons for amnesia can be, but what exactly is the case
16 here, that I cannot say.
17 Q. You talked about the difficulty of coming to any definite
18 conclusions, and I wish to clarify with you that you mean definite medical
19 conclusions rather than any legal conclusions; correct?
20 A. No. I don't want to deal with legal conclusions at all with all
21 of you here. I mean, I am interested in medical conclusions. I am a
22 doctor. I only wish to deal with medicine, specifically psychiatry. But
23 I cannot even reach a tentative psychiatric conclusion except one, that I
24 find it striking that with such painful stories, there aren't any medical
25 documents, or very few, if any. As for psychiatric and psychological
1 documentation, there is none at all. It is simply lacking. And I would
2 have expected there to be some.
3 Q. The lack of medical documentation makes it difficult for you to
4 reach any sort of medical conclusion, correct, about the medical
6 A. Of course. Of course.
7 Q. That lack of medical documentation does not lead you to believe or
8 to conclude that the incidents didn't occur; right? I mean, the trauma
9 could still have occurred even without the medical documentation; isn't
10 that right?
11 A. Yes. But you see, if I am asked to give an opinion as a woman, I
12 can tell you one thing, but my opinion as a psychiatrist is sought, then I
13 have to tell you that for me it is as if it had not happened. I am not
14 coming here as a woman; I come here as a psychiatrist, as a
15 psychotherapist, and I rely on medical documentation, and that is why I
16 think I'm here.
17 Q. Let me ask you this, Doctor. In your report you appear to analyse
18 the witness statements in such a way as to challenge their credibility.
19 Did you mean to do that?
20 A. No. No. No. That is your experience.
21 Q. And just to clarify, you do not mean to doubt the believability of
22 these witnesses who gave those statements at all, do you; that is not your
24 A. I read it and I gave my comments, my psychiatric comment, in view
25 of what I had seen.
1 Q. And again, I'm asking for clarification. In reading your
2 psychiatric comments, I sometimes had the impression that you meant to say
3 because a witness appears to be leading a normal life and has married and
4 had children, that therefore she could not have undergone this traumatic
5 rape, because had she undergone this traumatic rape, her life would have
6 been destroyed. Did you mean to convey that impression?
7 A. I have to admit to you that I find it striking the facility with
8 which the witnesses adapted to normal life without having previously gone
9 through any kind of treatment, basically, and that they managed to get out
10 of all of that on their own in such a remarkable way. I deal with this
11 every day --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Kuo, I'm a bit disturbed because it seems to me
13 that the witness has got a wrong context in which she's trying to explain
14 what she observed from the statements.
15 If I recall correctly, the Prosecution witnesses were not asked by
16 the Prosecution to give details of the medical treatment, psychological
17 treatment, anything. So in a way, it is really a misrepresentation to the
18 witness for her to be led into making these conclusions because that
19 wasn't the emphasis of the Prosecution case, that they did go through
20 treatment or they didn't go through treatment. So I think the questioning
21 of the witness may be misleading to her, in fact.
22 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. You're absolutely correct that the
23 Prosecution's case did not rest on the medical evidence. I'm asking her
24 for some clarification of her report, and perhaps I can rephrase it if the
25 Court finds it objectionable, because the impression that I received, and
1 maybe it's the wrong impression, is that this witness was reaching the
2 conclusion that the trauma could not have occurred because there was a
3 lack of ...
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.
6 MS. KUO:
7 Q. Dr. Raskovic-Ivic, couldn't the fact that these witnesses -- well,
8 number one, the fact that the witnesses say that they're leading a normal
9 life, even according to what you said, could be misleading. In fact, they
10 could be experiencing great emotional difficulties which is masked by
11 their everyday actions, correct?
12 A. I don't know that. I don't know that.
13 Q. But it's a possibility?
14 A. It is a possibility, certainly. There is such a possibility, but
15 I don't know that.
16 Q. And there is also the possibility that they could develop symptoms
17 later with a delayed onset of post-traumatic stress syndrome? That's also
18 been recorded in the medical records, that such events occur?
19 A. Of course. That is precisely what I'm speaking about, about the
20 delayed consequences, the delayed sequel of the act of rape, and what
21 kinds exist and may occur. One of the late consequences is that emotional
22 rehabilitation and recuperation is very difficult.
23 Q. But couldn't the third possibility be, as you say, the remarkable
24 strength of these particular individuals in being able to overcome
25 adversity? I mean, strong people exist, don't they?
1 A. Well, there are strong people, but all of them being strong, and
2 on the other hand that I have a great deal of experience with persons who
3 are not strong, somehow does not fit together to my mind.
4 I think that all men and all women have more or less the same
5 psychological characteristics, and then on one side you have all who are
6 strong and on the other side you hardly have any strong ones, then you are
8 Q. Do you understand that the witness statements you were given came
9 from individuals who are not a random sampling of individuals? In other
10 words, these were people who were able to give statements to the Tribunal.
11 Do you understand that this was a select group?
12 A. Yes. But, you see, you see, even a select group -- a woman who
13 decides that she is capable of talking about something like that does have
14 to have some kind of a problem, something that bothered her, and something
15 that would give a psychiatrist reason to work with her.
16 Q. And finally, doctor, you are not saying, are you -- you are not
17 able to reach any conclusion, medical or otherwise, about whether these
18 rapes occurred or not, right? You are in no position to give any opinion
19 about that?
20 A. No, I am not in a position to give any opinion about that. Even
21 in my country I do not give opinions about that. When a rape occurs in my
22 country, then medical documentation is sought, and then in this medical
23 documentation I, as a doctor, as a psychiatrist, I list only my
24 psychiatric findings, what I find to be a consequence of that. However, I
25 do not state my views on whether a rape occurred or not. I only look at
1 the psychological effects. I only look at the psychological side of the
2 woman who comes to me with a problem and who talks about her symptoms and
3 about what troubles her. That is what I mention in my findings. By no
4 means do I say whether it happened or not. That is beyond my
6 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination? Yes.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 Re-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] From your medical point of view, how do you
11 explain the testimony of a person who was raped by 150 men within an
12 interval of 40 days and who does not remember a single event and cannot
13 describe a single event?
14 A. I already said something about amnesia and the inability to
15 remember. I think that a person who says that she was raped by 150 men
16 would have to remember the event itself because if she remembers the
17 number, then she would have to remember the details as well. Every man
18 for her would have to be a traumatic story respectively, but then she
19 would have to remember the colour of his eyes and where it happened, et
20 cetera, because if she knows the exact number, then she would certainly
21 have to remember the other things as well.
22 Q. Just one more question. Could you explain to us a bit what
23 selective or manipulative amnesia means in the sense of remembering or not
25 A. Selective amnesia is a subcategory of manipulative amnesia, and we
1 know what manipulation is. Manipulation is manipulation. It is when we
2 wish to conceal the truth, when we wish to conceal the actual way things
3 happened. That is manipulation. When we are trying to get something else
4 rather than what should take place.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Doctor, for giving evidence to
7 the Tribunal. You are now free. You may leave the witness box.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Who will be the next witness?
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have concluded
12 for the day. We had planned to have four experts in these two days, so
13 we've finished in advance.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Why aren't the other witnesses here? Because you
15 remember before we broke off, I did emphasise that all the witnesses must
16 come for the week.
17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we said that we
18 would have four witnesses, but of course, it is not within my competence
19 to decide when these witnesses will arrive. They are arriving here
20 tonight, actually.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Prodanovic, that's not correct. I did say
22 besides the experts, we should have three other witnesses, you remember,
23 before we broke off? And I did not say these will give evidence on this
24 or that day; no. And I did say the sequence of calling witnesses should
25 not hold up the Trial Chamber. Any witness available must come. So why
1 aren't these other witnesses here in The Hague?
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have understood
3 what you said, and we worked out a schedule that meant two days of expert
4 witness questioning, and that is what we meant by having witnesses for the
5 remaining period tomorrow, the day after tomorrow.
6 As far as Kunarac is concerned, the accused Kunarac, we have only
7 two more witnesses, the one who will appear tomorrow and the videolink
8 witness, so we will have used up our time, and we will not require any
9 additional time. So that witness is tomorrow, and on Tuesday is the
10 witness who will testify by videolink.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: What I want to know is, who took the decision that
12 Monday and Tuesday will only be for the experts? Who took that decision?
13 Because that wasn't decided by the Trial Chamber.
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't. I mean, I'm not
15 claiming that it was.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then why weren't the other witnesses brought
17 at the same time as the experts who are brought, I mean in The Hague?
18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I really do not know how to
19 answer this question that you've put.
20 JUDGE HUNT: You did say, you did say that it was not within your
21 competence to decide when they came. That is quite contrary to what Judge
22 Mumba said to you before the adjournment when she said to you why weren't
23 all the witnesses here? Whose competence was it to decide when the
24 witnesses came, then?
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps there was a discrepancy
1 between us and the department that deals with the witnesses coming in. I
2 don't know. Perhaps my colleague, Ms. Lopicic, can explain these details.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Lopicic.
4 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, first I would like to tell you that we
5 thought that four expert witnesses would last today, whole day. Also,
6 Witnesses and Victims Unit told us that the four following witnesses will
7 come today. I also contacted today if additional witnesses, because we
8 might finish before Thursday afternoon for the four of the following
9 witnesses, so maybe two or three additional can come tomorrow. I received
10 information that additional witnesses who we plan to be here on Friday for
11 the following week, the week of 18th of September, do not have visas. So
12 for this week we will only have additional four witnesses, (redacted)
13 (redacted). Those are
14 the four witnesses that are coming today, this afternoon.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: We will hear them this afternoon?
16 MS. LOPICIC: No, no, no. They are coming to The Hague this
17 afternoon, I believe around 19 hours.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Are these the Victims and Witnesses Unit --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could judge Mumba's microphone please be turned
21 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] We made the schedule, and we give
22 them --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: You gave them the whole list?
24 MS. LOPICIC: That's correct.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: And they decided that they can only bring the four
1 experts for Monday and Tuesday, and bring the others on Tuesday evening?
2 MS. LOPICIC: I would like to tell you that expert witnesses, they
3 decided on the 9th they will bring them by Yugoslavian Airlines from
4 Belgrade. The other four witnesses who are coming tonight, late
5 afternoon --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Who took that decision? Was it the Victims and
7 Witnesses Unit, or was it yourselves?
8 MS. LOPICIC: It was -- I have no idea. They told us on Tuesday
9 in the evening they will come, those four witnesses.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: You see, yes, because the problem we are facing
11 here, in spite of the instructions being given that all the witnesses for
12 the week be brought over the weekend, we still have this gap.
13 MS. LOPICIC: I understand.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: It is taking too long for the trial to get finished.
15 And it is not a question of whether or not Kunarac's witnesses are over,
16 we have witnesses for the other two, and we did say the sequence of
17 calling witnesses does not matter. What we wanted was to get through the
18 witnesses instead of wasting trial time.
19 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, I understand.
20 JUDGE HUNT: How many have you got coming for next week?
21 MS. LOPICIC: For next week we have, we first asked for ten
22 witnesses plus -- I'm sorry, we asked for one person who you granted for
23 videolink. We also requested additional witness for videolink.
24 So we have regular witnesses who are coming to The Hague, nine,
25 because the first person, Mila Daskovic, who is on the list is not coming
1 at all. So we have nine regular witnesses plus one person who is coming
2 through videolink, actually not coming to The Hague, and we also requested
3 the second person on the list to grant a videolink conference.
4 JUDGE HUNT: And what is the nature of the evidence they're going
5 to give? Is it extensive?
6 MS. LOPICIC: I cannot tell you for all because not all the
7 witnesses who are on the list are for the accused Vukovic.
8 JUDGE HUNT: But it strikes me that even taking two for videolink,
9 another nine may not be sufficient.
10 MS. LOPICIC: As far as I know, it's not going to be that
11 extensive in connection with the witnesses who are coming for the accused
12 Mr. Vukovic.
13 JUDGE HUNT: You say there's going to be extensive evidence given
14 by these witnesses?
15 MS. LOPICIC: They're not going to be that long. I'm not sure how
16 long is going to be cross-examination.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: So we are expecting three witnesses to come tonight?
18 MS. LOPICIC: Four.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Four.
20 MS. LOPICIC: Four.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Four to come tonight.
22 MS. LOPICIC: Four tonight, four. And that's to the end of the
23 week. So for Wednesday and Thursday, we planned four witnesses. One
24 witness --
25 JUDGE HUNT: That makes the nine or 11 witnesses, whichever way
1 you look at it, unlikely to last the whole of next week.
2 MS. LOPICIC: As far as I understand, those are all the witnesses
3 for the Defence.
4 JUDGE HUNT: You mean there are no other witnesses coming?
5 MS. LOPICIC: No.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, all right.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: So we have a few matters to deal with, particularly
8 on the protective measures that have been raised by the Defence for their
9 witnesses, and also the nature of the evidence to be given by some of the
10 Defence witnesses. So I was wondering whether the Prosecution are ready
11 with responses, or they need time to look at the documents and then we can
12 deal with them this afternoon?
13 MS. KUO: I believe we are ready right now, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Part of the motions, I think, are under confidential
15 cover, and I think we need to go into private session. I think the
16 Defence can confirm that what I've seen is under confidential cover for
17 protective measures. So can we go into private session?
18 Madam Registrar, we forgot about the expert opinion, to ask the
19 Prosecution whether it should be under seal or were they to be open with
20 some paragraphs redacted. Can we clear this, please?
21 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, we've identified the three witness who
22 testified in closed session, and we're prepared to give you the page
23 numbers that are be redacted.
24 However, another problem has come to our addition which is that
25 throughout the report are mentioned names of Defence witnesses as
1 perpetrators who have been granted protective measures, and so I suppose
2 that we would leave it to the Defence whether they wish to have that
3 protected. It may simply be better to keep the whole thing closed, under
4 seal, but we are prepared to give you the limited amounts that can be
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can hear the Defence. What is your view?
7 You've read this expert opinion and you've seen that some of the Defence
8 witnesses who are pseudonyms are mentioned by name. Can we have your
9 views, please.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our position is that
11 the document should be fully under seal in order not to complicate
13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.
14 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, in view of the standard manner in which the
16 document would be treated, we feel that it's okay to have it under seal.
17 So it remains under seal, Madam Registrar. We've already got the
19 JUDGE HUNT: I want to make it clear to Ms. Kuo that that doesn't
20 prevent us from referring to its contents in any judgement. This is the
21 problem when everything goes in under seal for a matter of convenience.
22 It's very difficult to write a judgement.
23 MS. KUO: We appreciate the clarification. We have also been
24 troubled by this dilemma.
25 JUDGE HUNT: We will have to refer to the witness' evidence but
1 without giving any identification of the particular witness. But the
2 evidence that was given in closed session is nevertheless relevant and has
3 to be referred to.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Even in closing arguments that's okay. It's
5 the name of the witnesses, anything to identify them that usually remains
6 under seal and cannot be placed in open records. Yes. So we go back to
7 closed session -- private session, I think.
8 [Private session]
13 pages 5485-5515 redacted – private session
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.05 p.m., to
23 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of
24 September, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.