1 Wednesday, 20 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number IT-96-23-T and

8 IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor against Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and

9 Zoran Vukovic.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. We are continuing with

11 examination-in-chief.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS DP [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

16 Q. Good morning, Witness.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Before the recess yesterday, I said that you can use the name

19 which can be found in the statement you provided for the Trial Chamber.

20 Could you please tell me what do you know about Nihad Pasovic's family?

21 A. The family of Nihad Pasovic were friends of my parents, house

22 friends. We were neighbours, and we lived there until August or September

23 when they left town. Samir was exchanging visits with Zoran. He was a

24 conscript, and he had access to a kitchen, and he was able to provide

25 food, cigarettes, and other household supplies.

1 Q. Let me interrupt you here. Let us try to focus on what is

2 relevant in order to speed things up.

3 Is there anything special that you can say about Nihad, something

4 that happened?

5 A. Yes. He was at home and we would come to visit, and later, when

6 he was transferred to the KP Dom, I could not go there because I was not a

7 conscript, but Zoran could. He could approach the guards. Otherwise,

8 communication with people who were at the KP Dom was not allowed. But he

9 would bring food, cigarettes. Cigarettes he could bring legally, but he

10 had to smuggle in the food.

11 He also provided all the documents, the identity card, the

12 passport, and he gave him some money too. We didn't have much. We didn't

13 have much money.

14 Q. In addition to the name which was mentioned here, can you mention

15 some other names of other families of whom you know?

16 A. In addition to Nihad Pasovic, he helped -- but let me just, if I

17 may, add something in respect of Nihad.

18 I saw Nihad in Sarajevo in the last few years. He hasn't been

19 coming to Foca, but I have been going to Sarajevo. He would always send

20 regards to Zoran. He thanked us. And he even agreed, if necessary, that

21 he would come and testify, because there were others who did not dare come

22 before the Tribunal to testify that Zoran was helping them.

23 He also helped -- let me try to remember -- Irfan Ljubinac's

24 sister-in-law. He was a soccer player, and he was actually a referee.

25 Their last name was Cavadar.

1 Q. Let me interrupt you. Your statement has been provided to the

2 Prosecution and has been marked for identification here. I don't want to

3 take you through every name individually, but let me ask you in general:

4 Did Zoran Vukovic help everyone who asked for help regardless of what

5 ethnic background they were of?

6 A. Yes. Before the war, he was very popular. He wanted to help --

7 he was very sociable -- and to be part of any company. In our

8 neighbourhood, where my cafe is, he was very popular in the neighbourhood

9 as a neighbour.

10 I know four or five families, I can name them, Macak, Jahic,

11 Aganovic, Vejo. And I was with him a few times. We would bring these

12 people food, drinks, and so on.

13 Q. Very well. Let us move on. You saw the accused Zoran Vukovic

14 wearing a uniform?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us whether there were any characteristic insignia,

17 rank, or anything else?

18 A. I don't recall any ranks on those uniforms. They received

19 camouflage uniforms only later, sometime in the summer. Otherwise, they

20 were wearing those olive-drab uniforms and even civilian clothes.

21 Q. To your knowledge, was Zoran Vukovic a member of the military

22 police?

23 A. No. At that time I was seeing him intensively. I had just opened

24 my cafe. They would always come by to see whether it was open. If they

25 saw the light or they could hear the music, that they would come.

1 And I would have recognised a military policeman because they

2 would have something white on the uniform. I don't know. He would -- he

3 had the jacket on. He would change at home. And he would -- when he

4 would go out to the field, I saw him wearing this olive drab uniform and

5 some parts of civilian clothes because he did not have all parts of the

6 military uniform, so he combined the military and civilian clothing.

7 Q. I was just about to ask you that before. Did the military uniform

8 have some specific insignia which distinguished them from the other

9 military?

10 A. I didn't go to town very much because I was a bit embarrassed

11 because I was not fit for the service, but whenever I would go, I would

12 see people in uniforms. And the military police always had white belts

13 and white pistol holsters, and I think they also had some insignia on

14 their sleeves.

15 Q. In the statement you have given, you mentioned an event which you

16 are aware of and which happened in June 1992, and it relates to an injury

17 which Zoran Vukovic sustained?

18 A. I remember.

19 Q. How do you know about this?

20 A. I remember -- first I was told that he was injured out in the

21 field, and then I visited him. And he even showed me this injury because

22 we were that close. I know that he, through his sisters -- and I also

23 took him to the nurses, and I also took him to -- for exams, for controls,

24 too.

25 I know that this happened between the birthdays of my two

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1 children, one was 11 June, that was my son's birthday, and he and I

2 celebrated it; and on the 19th of June it was my -- my daughter was born,

3 and I know that he couldn't attend, and I was sorry that he couldn't be

4 part of the party.

5 Q. Let me clarify one point. Checking the transcript of your

6 testimony yesterday, you said that Zoran Vukovic at that time lived at his

7 mother's because he was not with his wife. I'm not sure that I understood

8 you correctly. Was he at his mother's because he got divorced? Can you

9 clarify this for me?

10 A. They lived there before the war together. Then they moved to

11 another apartment, and I don't know whether he lived with his wife. I

12 believe that he lived at his mother's because I saw him down at Donje

13 Polje when he was going to the -- out to the field, and I would see him

14 passing. I don't know if this is appropriate for me to mention here. He

15 was not on good terms with his wife, and he confided in me in 1988, 1989,

16 that he had sexual problems, that he had a problem with impotence. And he

17 complained that there was some -- there were frictions, and that the

18 source of that problem was living with his wife.

19 And when he told me this, this was a couple of years before the

20 war -- I don't know, three or four years, and doesn't matter -- I advised

21 him to seek professional help. I thought that his was a psychological

22 problem. But also, I found it awkward to open up that topic with him.

23 Q. One more question. Have you ever -- did you ever see Zoran

24 Vukovic before the war, during the war, wearing hats?

25 A. No. That was -- no, not even a cap, even though he was -- his

1 hair was receding, but he didn't mind. He had no complex of that kind. I

2 never saw him wearing any hat or cap.

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like to

4 consult my colleagues, but I think that this may have been my last

5 question.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No more

9 questions.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel? No?

11 Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

12 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

14 MS. KUO:

15 Q. Good morning, Witness.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. You count Zoran Vukovic as among your narrow circle of friends;

18 isn't that right?

19 A. Close, I don't know how close, but we were neighbours. We were on

20 very good terms in relation to business because he worked for me.

21 Q. In the statement which has been marked for identification as

22 Defence Exhibit 168, I believe --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: It's not an exhibit.

24 MS. KUO: Marked for identification as an exhibit, Your Honour, I

25 believe that's --

1 JUDGE HUNT: An exhibit is something which is in evidence.

2 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, I --

3 JUDGE HUNT: I know that we have problems with the terminology,

4 but that document is not in evidence.

5 MS. KUO: I was very careful to say it was marked for

6 identification. I will not use the word "exhibit" from now on.

7 Q. It has been marked for identification, and you saw it yesterday,

8 dated 6th of May of 2000. Do you remember? You know the statement I'm

9 referring to?

10 A. My statement? I didn't understand you.

11 Q. Yes. I'm asking you about a statement that you made in May, yes.

12 Now, in that statement, you stated that from April 1992 until February

13 1993, you were not able to open your catering business for guests, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You stated also, "During that time, the cafe was only open

16 internally for a narrow circle of my friends, and among them Zoran Vukovic

17 was too."

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So you counted Zoran Vukovic as among your narrow circle of

20 friends, correct? That's what you said.

21 A. You asked me -- a close friend. I may have two or three close

22 friends. That's different from "narrow circle of friends."

23 Q. You've known Zoran Vukovic for a long time, and you know that he

24 was married, right, and had children?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. So you're aware that during the war, he had a daughter who was

2 about 15 years old, right?

3 A. Yes. I don't know exactly the age, but ...

4 Q. That's approximately the age? You need to say yes or no.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you talked about this discussion you had with Zoran Vukovic

7 and his problems with impotence, he made it clear it was 1988 or 1989,

8 several years before the war started, right?

9 A. Before the war.

10 Q. So the injury that you described which you had -- in 1992 which

11 you said Zoran Vukovic had and that required you to take him to see

12 doctors, that injury could not have caused this impotence, right?

13 A. Can I answer with more than yes or no? In 1988, he was talking to

14 me about the problem that he had, and in 1992 he sustained that injury.

15 That is when I drove him. But in 1988/1989, I only talked to him about

16 this. In fact, he was telling me about it.

17 Q. Very well. In 1992, when you were driving Zoran Vukovic to his

18 doctor's appointments, this was sometime after he sustained the injury,

19 right? Logically, it had to be after he sustained the injury.

20 A. Yes. That was in 1992, after his injury. That is when I took him

21 to the urologist.

22 Q. You stated that he sustained this injury in the field. You were

23 not in the field, right, when he sustained the injury?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And you've never seen any doctor's records indicating exactly when

1 Zoran Vukovic sustained this injury in the field, have you?

2 A. No. Yes.

3 Q. Oh, you have? You've actually seen --

4 A. No, I did not see. Sorry. My mistake. It's no.

5 Q. So you don't know exactly what date Zoran Vukovic sustained this

6 injury in the field, do you? You just know that sometime afterwards you

7 had to help him go to the doctor.

8 A. I mentioned that I could recall the date because my daughter was

9 born that year, within several days of that event, on the 19th of June,

10 and he was unable to attend the celebration. This is how I remember it.

11 In other words, it was several days before the 19th. I don't know whether

12 that was on the 15th, 16th, or 14th.

13 Q. But you remember that it was several days before your daughter was

14 born or you simply remember that at the time your daughter was born, he

15 could not attend the party?

16 A. The birthday was on the 19th, and when I learned about the birth,

17 I invited some friends that evening, we had drinks, and he couldn't come

18 because he was bedridden at home. And I know that he was injured, because

19 he called me on the phone. He was taking antibiotics or getting

20 injections. I forget what.

21 Q. I understand that, but the question is: You don't know how many

22 days before that he was injured, right? You simply don't know.

23 A. Yes, I said I did know, because it was three or four days before.

24 Q. You remember that eight years after it happened, that it was three

25 or four days before your daughter was born?

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1 A. I remember because he usually helped me when I was opening up the

2 cafe. I didn't have a waiter at that time. He always helped there. He

3 was paid for it. So everything was straight. I know it was three or four

4 days. I think that everybody remembers when their child is born. They

5 remember the day and how they celebrated that event.

6 And this was a war year, 1992. The war had started in April.

7 There were so many traumas that everybody has gone through. My wife gave

8 birth prematurely, in the eighth month of pregnancy, so I have very vivid

9 memories of that. That was the third month, April, May, June, yes.

10 Q. Witness, we have no doubt that you remember the birth of your

11 child, as it is a significant event in your life. What I'm asking you

12 about and what seems much more incredible, is that you would remember

13 something that happened to someone else in the middle of all your trauma

14 with such precision, that three or four days before this very significant

15 event, somebody had sustained an injury.

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness has

19 already answered several times and gave the reasons why he remembered that

20 this was three or four days before his own child was born. I think that

21 he has given the only reasons that he knows why he remembers it.

22 The question was how did he remember that. First, it was one

23 child's birthday, and then the birth of the second child. He mentioned

24 all those things.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: So?

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, there is no problem at all. The

3 witness will deal with that, and this is cross-examination. If the

4 counsel wants to press for the truth, she's free to do so. This is

5 cross-examination, so there's nothing wrong with her pressing on the same

6 issue.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 MS. KUO:

9 Q. Witness, you're telling the Court that in the midst of this very

10 significant event in your life, the birth of your daughter, indeed in the

11 middle of all this trauma that is happening to you and your family, that

12 you remember what was happening to Zoran Vukovic and exactly how many

13 days and when it happened? Is that what you want this Court to believe?

14 A. Let me give you an example, if I may. My wife was already in

15 hospital a couple of days before the delivery, and when I drove Zoran to

16 the hospital, I also visited my wife prior to her delivery. So do you

17 understand that? And Zoran apologised to me, saying, "I can't drink any

18 alcohol, I'm taking antibiotics, and if the baby's born in the next few

19 days, I will not be able to attend your party." So I didn't even expect

20 him to come, but he did call to congratulate me by phone.

21 So this was probably on the 17th because my wife felt pain, and I

22 took her to hospital, and when I went to visit her, because the hospital

23 is two kilometres away from town, I took advantage of the opportunity and

24 took Zoran by car, and left him to have him examined, and I went to the

25 other ward to visit my wife at the same time.

1 Q. How many times did you drive Zoran Vukovic to the hospital?

2 A. Four or five times. I can't remember exactly how many times. I'm

3 sure I didn't on that day and the following day when the baby was born,

4 but two or three days before the baby was born, I do remember that very

5 well, before the baby was born.

6 Q. Zoran Vukovic was never kept in the hospital because of this

7 injury; isn't that right?

8 A. No. I don't know about the first or second day, but, rather, the

9 second and third day he was at home when I drove him for his treatment.

10 He was probably extended first aid and then sent home. I don't know

11 whether he spent one day in hospital and one night, perhaps, or just the

12 whole day and was then discharged, but I know that he didn't stay for two

13 days for sure because a couple of days after that, I did drive him to the

14 hospital for his treatment. I don't know exactly what it consisted of. I

15 didn't go inside with him into the room, into the surgery where he was

16 given therapy, where he was treated.

17 Q. Let's move on. You mentioned a number of instances where Zoran

18 Vukovic helped Muslims in Foca, right?

19 A. [No translation]

20 Q. And among those people was somebody you yourself knew, Nihad

21 Pasovic, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, Nihad Pasovic is not a criminal, is he?

24 A. No.

25 Q. He did not commit any crimes during the time of this war, did he?

1 A. No.

2 Q. In fact, he was never even charged with having committed a crime,

3 was he?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You've lived in Foca for a long time; isn't that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you're aware --

8 A. I like Nihad Pasovic. We know each other for a long time. We

9 were friends. He would play -- no, rather, he would sing. He was a

10 singer. He would play -- sing in my coffee bar. By education he was a

11 lawyer, married, with a Serbian woman. Her name was Dragica. I know

12 everything about them. I was with them quite often, and Vukovic assisted

13 him, among others.

14 Q. During the war, Nihad Pasovic was a civilian, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, you are aware that KP Dom was used as a penal institution;

17 that is, a place where people either accused of crimes or convicted of

18 crimes were kept, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And Nihad Pasovic was detained at KP Dom, despite his never having

21 committed or having been accused of committing a crime; isn't that right?

22 A. Let me tell you, Nihad Pasovic went to prison in mid-July or the

23 beginning of July, among the last. I know this personally, that this was

24 for his personal safety. He was provided transport.

25 Q. He was -- he didn't volunteer to go there, did he?

1 A. I didn't say that. I didn't say that he volunteered, but he had

2 friends who helped him because at the time there was fighting in Foca,

3 there were casualties, dead and wounded, and so as to make sure that he

4 didn't suffer any unpleasantness, because he was a Muslim and he didn't

5 take part in the battle out of revenge, because there were people, you

6 see, who found it very hard to bear all these things, and they were not

7 indifferent.

8 So they couldn't trust even this person who was in his own

9 apartment, though they knew him. There were so many people in town who

10 appeared to be quite no threat at all, and it turned out that they

11 committed the worst possible crimes because this was so close to the line

12 of separation between Foca and Gorazde, and then they caught each other at

13 the front lines in battle.

14 Q. So Mr. Pasovic was taken to KP Dom not for his own safety, but

15 because as a Muslim, he couldn't be trusted, right? That's what you've

16 just told us.

17 A. No. Not because he couldn't be trusted, but because of his own

18 safety.

19 Q. Earlier in your transcript when you say, "So they couldn't trust

20 even this person who was in his own apartment," you did mean Nihad

21 Pasovic, didn't you, your friend? It's in the transcript, sir.

22 A. Yes, but I couldn't keep under control his neighbour, his

23 acquaintance, his colleague from work. They may have quarrelled at work,

24 you understand that. This was wartime.

25 Even I was not safe. I didn't sleep in my own house. The coffee

1 bar is in town, you see, and my house is right opposite the KP Dom, the

2 prison, so it's a kilometre and a half from town. And I couldn't sleep

3 there, nor could my parents. I spent nights with my mother-in-law. Above

4 the coffee bar, I had a room. And especially with the Focatrans problem,

5 I couldn't sleep in my own town. And you are asking me about Nihad

6 Pasovic as if I couldn't guarantee his safety. I couldn't guarantee my

7 own because of the Muslims. I was very close to the separation line.

8 Q. Sir, you were never taken to KP Dom and detained for your safety,

9 were you?

10 A. No, I wasn't, because I was amongst my own people.

11 Q. And you are a Serb; isn't that right? Excuse me, you're a Serb,

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you were among other Serbs, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it was the Serbs who were taking the Muslims to KP Dom; isn't

17 that a fact?

18 A. If I had stayed at home, they would have picked me up, too,

19 because there were Muslims staying in my apartment. Before they left

20 towards Gorazde, before our army, let me call it that, the Serb army from

21 the town expelled them towards Gorazde, they searched my apartment. It

22 had been broken into and robbed. So they would have rounded me up in that

23 part of town, in that part of town; but in another part of town, the Serbs

24 were in control, and I was safe there.

25 Q. Now, sir, getting back to KP Dom, you stated that you did not have

1 access there because you were not a conscript; that is, you were not a

2 soldier, right?

3 A. Yes, but I didn't have any desire to go there, either.

4 Q. There were guards at the KP Dom, right, who would control who

5 would come and go?

6 A. I told you that I live close to the KP Dom. But I didn't live

7 there during that time, I lived in town.

8 Q. You mentioned in your direct testimony that there were guards at

9 KP Dom, whom Zoran Vukovic, as a soldier, could convince to let him have

10 access, right?

11 A. Yes. I assume so. He didn't tell me how he managed to bring food

12 and cigarettes.

13 Q. And you were very clear in your testimony that the cigarettes were

14 legal to bring in but that the food had to be smuggled. Can you tell us

15 why the food had to be smuggled?

16 A. That is how it is to this day. You can bring cigarettes to KP Dom

17 but not food or drinks or alcohol. I live nearby, so I know. And Zoran

18 probably knew one of the guards personally.

19 Q. So the people who were detained in KP Dom were limited in the food

20 that they were allowed to have, right? Strict controls on that.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 A. I don't know.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the Prosecution is asking

25 the witness to make conclusions about the kind of food provided in the

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1 KP Dom, whether they had food and how much food they had. I'm not sure

2 that the witness said anything about the food in the KP Dom. He just said

3 that Zoran Vukovic took some food to this person. But to ask the witness

4 to draw conclusions as to the kind of food provided in the KP Dom, I think

5 that is beyond the scope of the examination-in-chief.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, this is cross-examination, and this

7 witness says he was living more or less across from KP Dom, so he can deal

8 with those questions. If he doesn't know what was happening in KP Dom as

9 far as food is concerned, he will say so.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness

11 will tell you what he knows and, of course, that is quite in order. I'm

12 just concerned because the witness is being asked things that he made no

13 comment about earlier, about the food in the correctional institution,

14 whether the prisoners had enough food or insufficient food, but let the

15 witness tell you what he knows.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: This is cross-examination, and if the Prosecution

17 can get what supports their case regarding Muslims and the way they were

18 treated during the war period, why not? You know the rule on

19 cross-examination. It's not limited to examination-in-chief. So there's

20 no need for you to --

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Please carry on, counsel, with your

23 cross-examination.

24 MS. KUO:

25 Q. Witness, it was Zoran Vukovic that told you that he had to smuggle

1 the food in for his friend, right?

2 A. I didn't say "smuggle." He found a way as best he could, because

3 I know that the discipline at the KP Dom, I heard from others before the

4 war, not during the war, regarding convicts, what was permitted and what

5 was not permitted. In fact, once I tried to visit a friend of mine. I

6 didn't know any one of the guards, I didn't dare ask because the

7 discipline was very strict in this institution before the war. As for the

8 war, I don't know. I only went there once, when the Muslims were

9 exchanged, and this may have been in September or October, when I went

10 back to live in my house.

11 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Pasovic was among the last to be taken to

12 KP Dom and this was in July, and by that you mean that throughout May and

13 June, Muslim men were being arrested and taken and detained at KP Dom,

14 right?

15 A. Yes. And I know that any kind of -- should any kind of evidence

16 be found about the Muslims participating in the war -- quite a lot of

17 ammunition was found and weapons and explosive devices. I could see that

18 personally when I was working in the Civil Defence, when they collected

19 these things that they had found in their homes, especially in the homes

20 of those who fled. They left their rifles and pistols.

21 I came here to testify about Zoran, about his particular

22 participation in the war and to tell you how much he had helped the

23 Muslims as he had, but about everything else, I was not a military

24 conscript. I was a member of the Civil Defence, and I don't know these

25 things, and I'm not really willing to discuss them or to testify about

1 them.

2 Q. Witness, if you would stick to answering the question, then I

3 think you will find-that you're not going to be asked about things you

4 don't know. And if you don't know, you are permitted by this Court simply

5 to say, "I don't know."

6 Now, you've testified about how Zoran --

7 A. I can answer yes and no. I was telling you things about the

8 KP Dom that I don't really know about. I know what the situation was like

9 before the war because I lived very close by, about 100 metres as the crow

10 flies. So I would pass by, and I would hear stories about it and about

11 the people who were convicted and that in the KP Dom before the war.

12 Q. Witness --

13 A. As for the situation during the war, I really do not know

14 anything.

15 Q. Let me just repeat. If you don't know, you can just say those

16 simple words, "I don't know." You do not need to give a very long

17 explanation. Okay? We would -- everybody here wants to make this as

18 short as possible, so please cooperate.

19 Now, among the things that you --

20 A. Yes, but it was your questions that prompted this -- my response,

21 which was perhaps lengthier than it should have been.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Fair enough, Witness. Just wait for questions and

23 answer them.

24 MS. KUO:

25 Q. Among the things that you said Zoran Vukovic did to help

1 Mr. Pasovic was to obtain an identification card and passport for him,

2 right?

3 A. He didn't obtain it, but he went to his parents and his wife and

4 picked it up, because he -- Pasovic probably didn't carry his documents

5 with him. They were left at home. He had been there the previous days

6 also.

7 Q. Okay. How long -- you said Mr. Pasovic -- how long was he

8 detained in KP Dom?

9 A. I don't know exactly how many days or months. Maybe 10 or 15

10 days. I don't know. I don't remember.

11 Q. And among the things that Zoran Vukovic did for Mr. Pasovic, in

12 addition to getting him the papers, was to get him on a bus so that he

13 could leave Foca; isn't that right?

14 A. Yes. Not to get him on the bus but to see him off.

15 Q. Now, you -- among the other things that Zoran Vukovic did to help

16 Muslims around town was to provide black clothing for them, right?

17 A. That was the case with the man who was working in the elementary

18 school. His name was Mesa. He was a janitor. One of them was called

19 Dina, as far as I can remember, and that's what I said in my statement.

20 And for the reasons I mentioned a moment ago, there were killings and

21 woundings, and so that they wouldn't be conspicuous.

22 Q. And these people that you mentioned who required the black

23 clothing to move around town were Muslim, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You also mentioned in your statement that Zoran Vukovic helped

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1 several Muslims to leave Foca, and I quote from you, "He helped with their

2 safe and undisturbed departure from Foca." Right? That's what he did?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Without his help, there might not have been a safe and undisturbed

5 departure from Foca for these Muslims, right?

6 A. No.

7 Q. It was dangerous for Muslims to be in Foca or even to leave Foca

8 and that's why they needed his help, right?

9 A. Not his help, but there were people like he who helped -- not

10 helped. They accompanied their friends and acquaintances. So first of

11 all, we saw them off, and also to provide an additional degree of safety,

12 if one may call it that.

13 Q. Isn't it true that during this time, Muslim families were

14 desperate to leave Foca and, in fact, were sometimes even willing to pay

15 money to be taken out of Foca? Isn't that the situation during this

16 time?

17 A. Yes. Exactly the same as the Serbs coming from Gorazde to Foca,

18 because they felt safer there. So a Muslim in Gorazde was in power, if

19 one can put it that way, if you can call it "power" in those days, and

20 very few Serbs could leave Gorazde once the conflict started, and from

21 Foca they were able to leave. Almost all of them left. Only those who

22 were arrested in battle and on whom weapons were found, and those who were

23 behind the plans.

24 I know in my neighbourhood there were cases of guards being

25 organised, and 15 or 20 days before the war I couldn't go home at peace.

1 The coffee bar I worked until midnight. I would come across guards,

2 masked individuals.

3 Q. Sir, sir, please just stick to the question and the answer.

4 After the outbreak of the war, within a few days the Serbs had

5 taken control of Foca town; isn't that right?

6 A. No.

7 Q. May, June, July, August, and so on in 1992, the Serb authorities

8 were in charge of Foca, right? They were running the institutions.

9 That's a fact, right?

10 A. It looked more like a chaotic situation than proper authorities

11 having been established because the war conflicts were going on.

12 Q. The Serb authorities were running KP Dom, right?

13 A. Not authorities, but the people working in the KP Dom. The Serbs

14 working there. That I know.

15 Q. And the Serbs were also running the police department, right?

16 A. The Territorial Defence and the police. The reserve police force

17 and the Serbs who remained in the police, they worked. They continued

18 working.

19 Q. The reason, as you stated yourself, that the Muslims all left Foca

20 was because of this campaign that was aimed at driving them out of Foca;

21 isn't that a fact?

22 A. Let me tell you, I'm testifying for Zoran, and could you put

23 questions to me within the framework of my statement, please.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Witness, you answer questions put to you by

25 counsel, and if the question is not proper, the Trial Chamber will stop

1 the question. So do answer questions put to you by counsel. You're not

2 here to direct counsel what type of questions to put to you.

3 MS. KUO:

4 Q. So the answer is yes, that's what was happening; isn't that right?

5 A. I don't even remember what you asked me. I'm finding it hard to

6 concentrate. Could you repeat your question, please.

7 Q. I'll repeat from the transcript. The question is, "The reason, as

8 you stated yourself, that the Muslims all left Foca was because of this

9 campaign that was aimed at driving them out of Foca; isn't that a fact?"

10 Yes or no.

11 A. No.

12 MS. KUO: I have no more questions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination, Mr. Jovanovic?

14 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honour.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] In answers to the Prosecution you mentioned black

17 clothing. Let us just explain. Who was wearing black clothing among the

18 Serbs, and why?

19 A. Do I have to answer that question?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I forgot to explain. People in mourning wore black clothing.

22 That is the custom. When a death occurs in the family, people wear black

23 clothing. In the case of women, they wear black scarves. And he wanted

24 to give them such black clothing as if they were Serbs in mourning so that

25 they would be safer.

1 Q. Does that mean that the Muslims do not customarily wear black

2 clothing when there is a death in the family?

3 A. They do not.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

5 further questions.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any questions?

7 Thank you, Witness, for giving your evidence to the Tribunal. You

8 are free to go. You may leave the witness box.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make your solemn

13 declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: WITNESS DQ

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, please go ahead.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not hear that, I'm sorry.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I'm telling counsel -- please sit down.

21 I'm telling counsel, please go ahead.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. Witness, good morning.

25 A. Good morning.

1 Q. There is a piece of paper in front of you with certain details: a

2 date of birth, a place of birth, a name, and a surname. Do these details

3 correspond to your own?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As you can see, there is a pseudonym also on that piece of paper.

6 That is a pseudonym that has been assigned to you. The Trial Chamber has

7 granted your request for protective measures, meaning that your face will

8 not be displayed on the monitors, and your real name will not be

9 mentioned. Did you understand what I have just said?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you please tell me what you do?

12 A. I am involved in construction. I have a construction business of

13 my own. I've had one before the war, and now after the war.

14 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the document with the particulars of the

16 witness and the pseudonym please admitted into evidence.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon, Your Honour.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is document D169, Defence

19 Exhibit D169, admitted under seal.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, go ahead, counsel.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you take active part in the war in Bosnia?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why not?

25 A. Before the war I had a traffic accident, and I was badly affected

1 by it. I had a severe skull fracture. My ribs were also broken, things

2 like that.

3 Q. Tell me, you've lived in Foca for a long time.

4 A. I've lived in Foca since my birth.

5 Q. Do you know Zoran Vukovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me, please, could you take a look around the courtroom and

8 can you recognise a person by the name of Zoran Vukovic?

9 A. The first person next to the policeman next to the window.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we conclude that

11 the witness has recognised the accused?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Zoran Vukovic?

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Zoran Vukovic, yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Are you familiar with Zoran Vukovic's family status and marital

17 status? Is he married? Does he have any children?

18 A. Yes, he is married. He has two children, a son and a daughter.

19 His wife's name is Dobrica.

20 Q. You were in Foca when the war broke out?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell me, at the beginning of the war, did people start, did people

23 start to move, and if so, do you know why? Do you know anything about

24 this, like Muslims from Foca?

25 A. Yes. As far as people moving out is concerned, everybody was

1 moving away. They were all moving to join their own people and where they

2 would live better. Mostly people would flee abroad, Serbs, Croats, and

3 Muslims.

4 Q. When you say "abroad," what do you mean by "abroad"?

5 A. I mean Germany. Germany, for the most part.

6 Q. Oh, I see. Foreign countries.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Before the war, did you have any Muslim friends? Did you

9 socialise with them?

10 A. Yes. I had quite a few Muslims friends, and I socialised with

11 them quite a bit.

12 Q. In the statement that you gave to the investigators --

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would actually like the witness

14 to be shown this statement for the purpose of identification, please.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have it numbered for identification

16 purposes only, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document will be marked D170,

18 D170.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead.

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Please tell me whether this is the statement that you made on the

22 10th of May, 2000. If you turn the page, you will see the signature.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That's your signature and that's your statement?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In your statement, you described a very specific event, and I will

2 ask you to repeat this, as briefly as possible, to the Trial Chamber.

3 However, do you know when this happened?

4 A. I do. On the 27th of April, 1992.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, the witness has identified his

6 statement. That's okay. Now, are you asking him to keep reading the

7 statement as you ask him questions? Because then he will not be giving

8 oral evidence, he will simply be restating --

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no. No, Your Honour,

10 no.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... anymore.

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I did not realise

13 that he was looking at the statement. I suggest that the statement be

14 taken away from him or put away on this other table.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. You may go ahead.

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You just told me that you know that this was on the 27th of April,

18 1992.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How can you be so sure after eight years that this was on the

21 27th of April, 1992?

22 A. I can be certain, because this happened around 2.15. At 5.30 in

23 the morning, my first cousin got killed at the front line, and I'm going

24 to remember that date for the rest of my life.

25 Q. Can you tell us, as briefly as possible, what happened that

1 morning? However, I would like to inform you of the following: You can

2 freely mention the names of all the persons who participated in these

3 events and who you can remember.

4 A. Well, it was around 2.15 a.m. The phone rang. My friend witness

5 DR called me and said to me that Enesa Mandzo, with her children, has

6 some problems. She is the wife of a great friend of mine.

7 Q. I have to interrupt you. You used a name that you are not allowed

8 to use. It's my mistake.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That person is a protected

10 witness, DR. That's the person who informed this witness. So I would

11 like to have this redacted, please. Lines 18 and 19. That is a witness

12 that will be heard after this witness.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The pseudonym is DR. So the name will be

14 redacted and DR will be substituted.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. So please proceed. I made a mistake. There is a restriction.

17 There is a restriction for the person whose name you mentioned. You are

18 not allowed to mention that person's name.

19 A. Well, as I said, she called me and said that Enesa and her

20 children, that is to say, the wife and children of my friend Huso Mandzo,

21 were in some kind of trouble. I don't know how she managed to make this

22 phone call, but she was calling me to help. I called Zoran too, my

23 friend, because I know what kind of person he is. I know his soul.

24 Q. I have to interrupt you at this point. You have other friends in

25 addition to Zoran Vukovic, don't you?

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1 A. Yes, of course. I have lots of friends.

2 Q. Why is it precisely that you call Zoran Vukovic?

3 A. Because he's a good man. Because I know that he wants to help,

4 and he helped everyone.

5 Q. Thank you. Please proceed.

6 A. I ignited my car and set out. I live a bit further away from

7 Zoran's building. In the meantime, I told my friend to go out in front of

8 the court building, which is where she lives. I picked up Zoran and the

9 friend, and we went to the apartment where Mrs. Mandzo was. She was in

10 her aunt's apartment. This was in Tito Street, near the post office. And

11 her house was out of town, on the outskirts of town. It is for safety

12 reasons that she moved to her aunt's apartment.

13 Q. I have to interrupt you again. You say that for safety reasons,

14 she moved from one house to another house.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What do you mean by "safety reasons" that would make a person

17 move?

18 A. Her house was in something like a forest, sort of like in a

19 meadow.

20 Q. We're talking about the war. The war has already started, right?

21 A. People were afraid. Some groups of unknown people started showing

22 up and things like that.

23 Q. Please proceed.

24 A. Then we reached the apartment where they were. I was the first to

25 enter the apartment. I found two soldiers there whom I did not know.

1 They were rummaging through the bedroom. They were looking for things

2 there. I said that they should get out. There was a major conflict

3 between me and them. I don't know. They said to me that I really had

4 balls, that I was brave since I'm doing something like that.

5 In the meantime, Zoran got in with an automatic rifle. He cocked

6 the rifle and said that he would kill all of them unless they left the

7 apartment.

8 Q. I have to interrupt you at this point as well. These soldiers

9 whom you found at the apartment --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- were they Serb soldiers?

12 A. No. They were from somewhere else.

13 Q. No, no, no, no, no. I'm asking you something different. They

14 were Serbs?

15 A. Serbs. Serbs.

16 Q. Thank you. Please proceed.

17 A. In the meantime, they had got some things ready, that is to say,

18 some clothes, some jackets, some cameras, other things. They just left

19 that and got out.

20 Zoran and I suggested to Mrs. Mandzo that we take her to her

21 mother's place, her and her children. Her mother lives in Samoborska

22 Street, not far away from the apartment where she had been staying. She

23 did what we suggested.

24 In the meantime, (redacted) went to her own apartment. Zoran and I

25 took the lady and her children to her mother's place by car.

1 In two or three days, since her mother asked we transfer her to

2 somewhere, to Montenegro, to Serbia, wherever possible, we managed to

3 transfer her. It took three days because obtaining petrol was a problem.

4 We managed to obtain petrol though, and that is how we transported them to

5 Montenegro.

6 Q. I shall have to interrupt you at this point. That evening, that

7 night when all of this was happening, when you saw Zoran Vukovic, was he

8 wearing a uniform?

9 A. No, no, no.

10 Q. Did you see Zoran Vukovic in uniform ever?

11 A. Well, perhaps out of ten times when we would meet, it would be

12 once. It wasn't really a uniform. It was that olive grey. Whether he

13 had trousers or a jacket --

14 Q. But you did not always see him in uniform?

15 A. No. Out of ten times, perhaps once.

16 Q. When you saw him in uniform, did his uniform have any special

17 insignia, any kind of insignia?

18 A. No, nothing.

19 Q. To the best of your knowledge, was Zoran Vukovic a member of the

20 military police?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were the members of the military police different from other

23 members of the military in any way?

24 A. Yes. They had white belts and also white holsters.

25 Q. In addition to this specific event that you told us about, are you

1 perhaps aware of some other persons, some other families, whom Zoran

2 Vukovic had helped; and what can you tell us about him as a man in the

3 briefest possible terms?

4 A. Since I had many years of business cooperation with him, I

5 cooperated with a construction company for many years, and he worked there

6 as a driver. He drove a vehicle there, transporting concrete. I can say

7 only the best about him.

8 As for whether he helped other people, he indeed helped many

9 people. I can mention some examples. Mr. Selimovic and his son Ekrem. I

10 think his son's name is Larvan [phoen], or nickname. I know he also

11 helped a salesperson, Mandzo. I don't know what his real name was, but

12 his nickname was Hase. I know that he was a fan of the football club

13 Sarajevo, from Sarajevo, so that is how he got his nickname. And also he

14 had a daughter.

15 One of them worked at the Sahinpasic green grocery store. He took

16 them food and cigarettes. Then Mr. Zecevic was married to a Muslim woman,

17 his sister-in-law he saved for sure. He took them, he took them food. I

18 know that one of them was called Semo Semsa, and I can't remember the name

19 of the other sister-in-law. It's been a long time. Then Avdo Kolubara.

20 I know the man until this present day. He only talks about him. He sent

21 greetings to him thousands of times over.

22 And that's it. There is even more than that, if necessary.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just need to

24 consult my colleagues, just a word or two, but I think these were all the

25 questions I had.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Those

4 were all my questions.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

8 Q. Good morning, Witness.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. Witness, you know Mr. Vukovic for at least 30 years, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were friends, were you not?

13 A. Yes, friends. Good friends.

14 Q. And you also had business contacts with Mr. Vukovic, right?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. He was a waiter in the Hotel Zelengora?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And he also drove a construction vehicle for the Gradjenje, right?

19 A. Yes. A mixer, yes.

20 Q. When were you asked for the first time to testify? Do you recall

21 that?

22 A. No, no. I really don't know. I can't remember the exact date. A

23 couple of months ago.

24 Q. Was it shortly before you gave the statement in May 2000?

25 A. Well, believe me, I don't know exactly. It wasn't that short a

1 period of time.

2 Q. How do I have to understand that? Does that mean you were asked

3 to testify long before you gave this statement to the Defence

4 investigator?

5 A. Yes, yes, yes, right, yes. Yes.

6 Q. In the statement you gave to the Defence investigator, you said

7 that you had at home something in writing. You had written down names of

8 people that Mr. Vukovic had helped. Do you recall what?

9 A. Well, you see, there was a misunderstanding there between the

10 investigator and myself. When we talked, I said to him that I would write

11 a list for him if it is necessary to have a list of persons whom Zoran had

12 helped, but I did not make a list before that. I said that I tried to

13 remember all the people that Zoran had helped, and that I'd write all

14 these names down on a piece of paper, and there were quite a few names.

15 So that was this misunderstanding. It was misquoted in this statement.

16 Q. Let me read to you what is in the statement. I quote from the

17 last page of your statement. "I have somewhere at home written to whom

18 and how much Zoran Vukovic helped Muslim men and Muslim women in Foca

19 during 1992. So if I managed to find that, I will bring it to you for

20 inspection."

21 How can that be a misunderstanding? I mean, if you say, "If I

22 managed to find it," that doesn't mean you were going to write something?

23 A. No, no. This is related to a paper, the permit that the lady got

24 in order to be able to leave town. That is what my statement refers to,

25 the paper that she got making it possible for us to take her out of town

1 two or three days later.

2 Q. Which lady are you talking about?

3 A. The lady that we protected that night and that we drove away a few

4 days later. That is Mrs. Enesa Mandzo and her children.

5 Q. But what I just quoted to you doesn't mention any certificate in

6 relation to this lady. It simply speaks about notes you made and were to

7 find.

8 A. No. I meant when I said that I had a piece of paper at home that

9 that was the paper that the lady got making it possible for her to get out

10 of town, but I had no other kind of paper. It would be ridiculous for me

11 to write down who helped who. It wasn't a problem to remember that.

12 Q. So you say it's a misunderstanding of the investigator, so what

13 the investigator wrote down was wrong?

14 A. He misunderstood me, yes. He misunderstood me, and that's what he

15 wrote down.

16 Q. But you signed the statement. You just had the statement in front

17 of you, and you signed it. Wasn't it read to you, or didn't you have time

18 to read it?

19 A. Well, I read it, but as we were talking, I clarified that that was

20 it, and I said that it was not a problem, and they didn't have to retype

21 it. So that's what I thought when I signed it.

22 Q. You knew Mr. Vukovic well, and you said that his wife's name is

23 Dobrica, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where did Dobrica work during the war?

1 A. I don't think she worked anywhere.

2 Q. Where did she work after the war; do you know that?

3 A. I mean, she worked at a company, otherwise -- Perucica, the

4 trading company of Perucica. But during the war, that was not working, so

5 she did not work either. Now, afterwards, she works in Perucica, this

6 trading company.

7 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Vukovic had children, and you said he had a

8 son and he had a daughter. Right?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. What is the name of the daughter; do you know that?

11 A. Believe me, these children have some kind of nicknames all the

12 time. Nobody knows my real name in town. People only know my nickname.

13 Q. So what is the nickname of the daughter?

14 A. Sometimes they call her Datsa or Ivana, Maki, a nickname all the

15 time. (redacted).

16 Q. You should not mention your nickname yourself; otherwise, you

17 reveal your identity.

18 The daughter was about 15 years during the war, wasn't she,

19 beginning of the war?

20 A. Yes, right.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can we break? It's 11.00. We will

22 continue the proceedings at 11.30 hours.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution continues with cross-examination of

1 the witness.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Witness, I got a request from the interpreters. They ask you to

4 hear my entire question before you start answering. You broke in in

5 between and so they missed something. Will you please look at that.

6 Witness, you said that you and Mr. Vukovic helped a lot of Muslim

7 friends, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Muslims, at that time, needed help from their Serb friends,

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You told us that Mrs. Mandzo moved because her own house was not

13 safe, right?

14 A. Well, perhaps she was safe, but it was in the forest. It was more

15 in the forest than in the open areas.

16 Q. Where was that house? It was in Foca, wasn't it?

17 A. Yes, on the edge of town, very edge of town. It was more rural

18 than the urban area.

19 Q. You said that groups of unknown people showed up in Foca, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You mean soldiers, right, Serb soldiers?

22 A. Those were people wearing masks. I don't know who they were.

23 Q. But they were soldiers, weren't they?

24 A. Those were people under -- wearing masks, no uniforms. They were

25 wearing jeans, jackets.

1 Q. But the army was in Foca and the TO was in Foca, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And they did not interfere with these groups. They didn't do

4 anything against this group of people, right?

5 A. That was the time when I couldn't move about very much because of

6 my injury, so I don't know, you know, who responded to what or not.

7 Q. But you are not telling us that it was Muslim groups, right? It

8 was Serb people, people of Serb ethnicity?

9 A. I don't know what ethnic groups they were.

10 Q. Muslims were detained in the KP Dom, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Huso Mandzo, for instance, was detained in the KP Dom, right?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Where was he?

15 A. He was in Gorazde, the neighbouring town of Foca.

16 Q. Do you know anybody else from the Mandzo family that was detained

17 in KP Dom? Do you know any of them?

18 A. I think -- and I know them well -- I think that none of them were

19 there. I'm not aware that anyone was there.

20 Q. But you are aware that Muslim houses in Foca were searched and

21 looted, right?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. But you actually intervened in such a situation, together with the

24 accused Vukovic, didn't you?

25 A. Yes, but I don't know about the other houses. How should I say

1 that I know when I don't know what was going on around.

2 Q. What you described to us was an attempted looting of the family of

3 your best -- of the family that you were the best man of, right?

4 A. Yes, but she went to her aunt, and things that were there did not

5 belong to her.

6 Q. It's not so much important what belonged to whom, but it was a

7 Muslim flat that was looted by these soldiers, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You told us that you called Mr. Vukovic to join you in helping,

10 and you said that you called him because you knew that he helped and he

11 was a good man, right?

12 A. Yes. He was a good man, and he was a good friend of Mandzo.

13 Q. Isn't it a fact that you also called him because you knew he was a

14 soldier and had an automatic rifle?

15 A. That wasn't really the reason. The only reason was that it's

16 better to go in someone's company than alone.

17 Q. Did you have a rifle or an automatic weapon?

18 A. No.

19 Q. But Mr. Vukovic had, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you encounter soldiers, it's good to have someone with

22 you who has also a weapon, isn't it?

23 A. Well, yes.

24 Q. And it was actually the accused who stopped, who stopped the

25 looting and who sent the soldiers away, right, and not you?

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1 A. We both did this.

2 Q. But you told us only when he cocked his rifle, they actually

3 respected it, right?

4 A. Well, it wasn't quite like that. I said how it was. When he

5 entered, the situation changed.

6 Q. Yes, because he had an automatic rifle.

7 A. Very well, yes.

8 Q. You said that there were Serb soldiers, but you did not know them,

9 these two soldiers, right?

10 A. No.

11 Q. In other words, you didn't know them?

12 A. No, I did not. I didn't know them.

13 Q. Where did they come from? Could you hear from their accent?

14 A. It -- they could have been from Montenegro.

15 Q. This incident, this incident, was it reported? Did you and

16 Mr. Vukovic go to the police and report that?

17 A. We reported it to the police, and on the basis of that report, we

18 were given permission to bring them out of town.

19 Q. Did anything happen to the two soldiers who tried to loot?

20 A. No. They left.

21 Q. The police did not arrest them, right?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Mr. Vukovic was a soldier, and you said you only saw him very

24 rarely in uniform, right?

25 A. That would be when he would come back from the, the defence line.

1 They were on the front lines in the hills. And sometimes he would come

2 back for a day or two or three to change, to change his clothing, to wash,

3 and that's when I would see him --

4 Q. And you said that --

5 A. -- in uniform.

6 Q. Sorry. You said that you saw him in the old SMB uniform, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You did not see him in camouflage uniform?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Mr. Vukovic was a member of the Dragan Nikolic unit, right?

11 A. That was the Dragan Nikolic Detachment, and he was a member of it.

12 Q. With the help of the usher, I would like to have this witness

13 shown a sheet of paper with a few names and pseudonyms on it, and I would

14 like to enter it into evidence. And it should be in front of the Defence

15 and also the registrar.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we have the formal number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document is Prosecution

18 Exhibit 245 tendered under seal.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20 Q. Witness, we have to avoid to mention the names of the people on

21 the list. Would you please look at the name next to the pseudonym DP2,

22 and can you tell us if this person was the commander of this Dragan

23 Nikolic unit after the death of Dragan Nikolic.

24 A. No.

25 Q. You don't know that?

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. Witness, you mentioned that Mr. Vukovic helped other people as

3 well, and you also mentioned that he gave food to a Muslim family, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So that means he could get food from the army, right, additional

6 food?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How, then, could he get food?

9 A. There were some food in the marketplace which one could buy. We

10 did this together because I had some money, and we used that money to buy

11 that food.

12 Q. Witness, you were in Foca throughout the war, weren't you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall when the Aladza mosque was blown up? Do you know

15 when that was?

16 A. I think that it was the next day, during the night. I did not

17 hear, but the next day people were talking about it having been destroyed,

18 but I don't know who and who did it and when.

19 Q. The next day, what do you mean by the next day? The next day

20 after what?

21 A. They said that during the night it had -- that the mosque was

22 destroyed, and the next day, the following day, people were talking about

23 it. I was not in town because I did not go out much during that period

24 because of my injury.

25 Q. But all the mosques in Foca were destroyed, right?

1 A. Well, not all of them.

2 Q. Are there still some mosques standing now?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us the name of these mosques that are standing, still

5 standing?

6 A. I did not know any names, but I can say where they are. Let's say

7 by the Han in -- I don't know what the street name is. Samoborska or -- I

8 don't know the new name. It used to be called Grnovski Sokak, and the

9 mosque there still stands as it was before.

10 Q. Is there any other mosque that you recall that's still standing

11 today?

12 A. Yes, down at Musluk at Donje Polje. Perhaps the fence, the gate

13 is a bit damaged, but the mosque is still operational.

14 Q. So the minaret is standing and the mosque, walls and the roof are

15 still there?

16 A. Yes, it has, but now it's a bit overgrown because nobody's going

17 there.

18 Q. Witness, you said that you and Mr. Vukovic helped several Muslim

19 families to leave Foca, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. They could not leave without your help, right?

22 A. They could. Of course they could.

23 Q. But why --

24 A. There was no problem in leaving town at all, but people simply

25 were in a hurry to leave as fast as possible. They could have left even

1 without our assistance.

2 Q. But you told us about the Mandzo family and that you procured the

3 papers, and you provided the fuel, and you protected them on their way,

4 isn't that right? That's what you told us.

5 A. She asked to leave as soon as possible. She just wanted to go.

6 She had a family in Germany. She had family in Cacak, in Krusevac -- that

7 was in Serbia -- and she wanted to leave as soon as possible. That was

8 her wish. She could have stayed on. She could have left a month or two

9 later, just as a number of people did.

10 Q. But she needed your help to get out. At least that is what you

11 told us.

12 A. Well, I just sped things up, the process of leaving.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Witness, for giving evidence to the Trial

17 Chamber. You are now free. You may leave the witness box.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make the solemn

22 declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

24 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you please sit down.

1 WITNESS: WITNESS DR

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic. Please go ahead.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As usual, in the beginning ...

7 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Your request for protective measures has been granted by the Trial

10 Chamber, and they include the distortion of your face and your name will

11 not be revealed.

12 Let me then ask you whether the date on the piece of paper,

13 including your full name, date, and place of birth, are correct.

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have this

16 tendered into evidence under seal, please.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please?

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is document D171, Defence

19 Exhibit D171, tendered under seal.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Also, I would like the witness

22 shown the statement which she has given, and if we could have it marked

23 for identification, please.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number for identification only

25 for the statement of the witness?

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be marked

2 D172.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, do you see your statement in front of you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you see a signature at the end of the statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is that your signature?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Could you please put that statement somewhere aside?

12 Can you give me some information about you without mentioning any

13 names? What is your education? Where did you work?

14 A. I graduated from the elementary school and trade school in Foca.

15 I have resided in Foca all my life. I first worked for the company called

16 22 December and then for the company called Focatrans.

17 Q. What do you do now?

18 A. I have a private store, and I also keep a stall in the

19 marketplace.

20 Q. When did you become involved in that?

21 A. I became involved in that during the war. After the combat

22 operations were over, all companies were -- had stopped working, and we

23 were receiving no salaries, and everybody had to fend for themselves.

24 Q. Where did you get the goods that you sold?

25 A. Some from Montenegro.

1 Q. It was black market, wasn't it?

2 A. Mostly from Montenegro.

3 Q. When you procured those supplies from Montenegro, did you travel

4 to Montenegro, or did the goods come from Montenegro?

5 A. Sometimes it came, and sometimes I went to get it myself.

6 Q. So you were able to leave town?

7 A. I was, yes.

8 Q. Did you need a special permit to do so?

9 A. At first, yes. Later on, it was no longer necessary.

10 Q. Do you remember which body, which organ of authority issued those

11 permits?

12 A. No, no. One of those institutions.

13 Q. In the statement that you gave on the 6th of May, 2000, you said

14 that you knew Zoran Vukovic. Is that true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Will you please look around the courtroom and tell us whether you

17 recognise someone as being Zoran Vukovic.

18 A. Up there behind you, the first one next to the window.

19 Q. You said the first next to the window? Is there someone next to

20 the window?

21 A. Yes. There's an official person, and then he.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the record, can

23 it be noted that the witness has identified the accused Zoran Vukovic.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. How did you come to know Zoran Vukovic?

2 A. I met Zoran Vukovic in our town. He was friendly with my brother,

3 who is two years younger than me, and they were close friends. And Zoran

4 would often come and visit our house with my brother, and that is how I

5 met him. And we were in touch throughout, and he would keep visiting.

6 Later on, my brother was killed, and Zoran continued to be a

7 family friend. He came to visit my mother and so on.

8 Q. Do you know what Zoran Vukovic did before the war?

9 A. For a while he was a waiter in the Zelengora Hotel. I think that

10 is his main occupation. And later on he worked in a building construction

11 enterprise, Gradjenje, and he drove a truck, a cement mixer, and he was

12 known under that nickname. That's how we called him often.

13 Q. As you were such good friends, do you know whether Zoran Vukovic

14 is married? Does he have a family?

15 A. Yes, he is married. He has a wife and two children, a son Dusko,

16 and a daughter Maja.

17 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, how old his daughter is now?

18 A. She is about 18 or 19. I don't know exactly.

19 Q. As you know the family, do you know whether Mr. Vukovic's wife was

20 employed, and if she was, where? What did she do?

21 A. I'm afraid I don't quite know that. She did work before the war

22 in commerce; and afterwards, I don't know what she did.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher,

24 I should like to show a name to the witness. This is the previous witness

25 who is a protected witness, so as I have some questions linked to these

1 names, I should like to show the witness.

2 Q. Do you know these names?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: What about the other Defence counsel, can they be

5 shown?

6 Yes, please go ahead. We don't need it numbered because it's DQ.

7 Yes.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You and the person whose name you just saw, were you participants

10 in an incident in which Zoran Vukovic took part, yes or no?

11 A. We are common friends. This person and I and Zoran, we're all

12 friends, and we did take part together.

13 Q. I forgot to mention something to you. The Trial Chamber has

14 granted us permission to use in public all the other names you mention in

15 your statement except for this one. When I asked you this, I had in mind

16 the incident with Mrs. Enesa. Could you tell us something about that?

17 A. Well, let me see. In April, the war was already on. I don't

18 remember the date. About 2.00 in the morning, Mrs. Enesa called me up. I

19 know that family well because they were kum with this other person, and --

20 Q. Just a moment, please. Can I interrupt you? With this person

21 whose name you read on the piece of paper?

22 A. Yes. And she called me up and said that there was some soldiers

23 at her door, and that she didn't know what to do. I then called up this

24 person whose name is protected and asked him to call Zoran because I

25 didn't know who to contact. And they did this, and I said I wanted to go

1 with them. And then this person found Zoran, and they told me to meet

2 them in front of the municipal court, and they came with a car because

3 they live in a different part of town. They picked me up, and we went

4 together to Enesa's apartment.

5 Those soldiers were searching the house and that sort of thing.

6 Then this person told them to leave the apartment, that these were his

7 kum, close friends. They didn't pay much attention. However, when Zoran

8 reacted and picked up his rifle and threatened to kill them all unless

9 they left the apartment, they then left.

10 We advised Mrs. Enesa to move over to her mother's place in

11 another part of town because it was safer. This was her aunt's flat, and

12 she was alone there with her two sons.

13 So I went home on foot because all this is close by, and they took

14 Enesa to her mother's place.

15 Q. Do you know what happened later with that family?

16 A. They told me that two or three days later, Zoran and this person

17 accompanied Enesa and her children out of town, because they were able --

18 and they were allowed to move out unhindered.

19 Q. In your statement, you also mentioned an incident that you were

20 present at, as well as the accused Zoran Vukovic, which occurred somewhere

21 near the place where you lived. Could you tell us what happened then?

22 A. This was at the very beginning. I was in town to buy some

23 supplies, and when I got back, all my neighbours were outside. A very

24 large group of people were there. I walked up and asked what was going

25 on, and they said -- or one of the soldiers said that all of us who have

1 any weapons, if we have any weapons in our homes, should bring them out.

2 Otherwise, they would search the apartments, and if they find any weapons,

3 we would be punished. There were both Serbs and Muslims and children and

4 women and everybody.

5 So I went inside. My mother was at home; she was old. And they

6 had already started searching and everything was scattered about. Then --

7 Q. Just a moment. Allow me to interrupt you. What is your

8 ethnicity, please?

9 A. I am a Serb.

10 Q. Please continue.

11 A. Then I went out again, and people were bringing the weapons that

12 they had. Most of them were with licenses, but they had to show them

13 anyway. Then the women and children went back inside. The men remained

14 outside.

15 One of my neighbours called me to ask what was happening, because

16 her son was outside. This neighbour was a Muslim. And there were many,

17 both Muslims and Serbs together. She was afraid, and she asked me whether

18 I knew what would happen. I said that nothing should happen, that this

19 was just a matter of searching apartments. At the end -- however, she was

20 afraid for her son.

21 Close by there are the offices of Maglic, an enterprise, and I saw

22 Zoran Vukovic talking to a man. Then I went up to him and told him what

23 the problem was. This woman's sister, the sister of the woman who asked

24 me to inquire about her son, was a colleague of Zoran's. They had worked

25 together for some 15 years. And I told him the whole story, and he said

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1 there would be no problems. He went up to the group. Eventually we

2 parted. He took Mirsad Karovic to his apartment, whereas I went back with

3 Hanija, her son, and his colleague Halima. They were protected. Zoran

4 would bring them food and so did I. I was selling cigarettes, chewing gum

5 at the marketplace because there was a shortage of food. And he gave me

6 some money on several occasions to take to this family, and I personally

7 took this money.

8 So later on, we escorted them out to safety. I bought them bus

9 tickets and they left.

10 Q. In the pre-war period, there were a large number of Muslims living

11 in Foca, were there not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But there aren't that many now?

14 A. No, but there are some.

15 Q. But much fewer than there were?

16 A. Yes, much fewer.

17 Q. As you told me, you spent all the time throughout the war in

18 Foca. In your opinion, what was one of the main reasons that there are so

19 few of them now, much fewer than there were?

20 A. I assume that everyone is afraid of war. It was not just the

21 Muslims who were leaving but also Serbs. Everyone left town who felt it

22 would be better elsewhere. If I had been able to organise things, I would

23 have left the town myself, because it was involved in the war. It was in

24 the midst of war.

25 Q. In your statement, you mention some events linked to the hospital

1 in Foca.

2 A. Oh, yes. In our hospital, there were quite a number of abandoned

3 children, quite a number of Muslim children, orphans also. We had a

4 Muslim child who used to live there before the war, and he was a favourite

5 of ours. We carried toys and food for him. And there were some Muslim

6 women in hospital to deliver babies, and we went to visit them because the

7 hospital -- those of us who lived nearby, and we took toys and food for

8 them.

9 Q. I didn't quite understand you. You said that Muslim women who

10 were about to give birth had left and the children stayed behind. Could

11 you explain that?

12 A. There were some such cases.

13 Q. That mothers abandoned their children?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I consult with my

17 colleague for a moment?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.

19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

21 further questions.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

23 Mr. Kolesar, you are smiling. Did you want to ask questions?

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

2 Q. Good morning, Witness.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. You told us your ethnicity. What is the ethnicity of your

5 husband?

6 A. My husband is a Serb.

7 Q. Witness, you told us that you had the possibility to leave Foca to

8 get supplies from Montenegro, and you said that first you needed permits,

9 and later on, no more. Since when did you -- could you leave Foca without

10 requesting a permit? Do you recall when?

11 A. I couldn't recall that, really.

12 Q. Could you tell us --

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You told us that you knew the Vukovic family and the family

15 members, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you socialise with the family?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you visit them during the war?

20 A. Not really. There wasn't time for visits during the war.

21 Q. Did you socialise with them during the war, and if so, where?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But where? Where did you meet, for instance, the wife and the

24 children?

25 A. In town.

1 Q. On the street, or places?

2 A. Yes. On the street mostly.

3 Q. Did you ever visit them? Would you know their address?

4 A. It's a part of town known as Donje Polje.

5 Q. Do you know the street, the name of the street?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did the Vukovic family live in this place before the war?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did they move into another place during the war?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How old is Mr. Vukovic's son?

12 A. Well, he -- he's about 20, I think.

13 Q. Is the son older or younger than the sister? He is younger, isn't

14 he?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Witness, you said that Mr. Vukovic helped a number of Muslim

17 families during the war, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Muslims needed help from Serb friends, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Muslims, for instance, needed someone to help them with food,

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I didn't hear the answer.

25 A. Yes. Everybody needed help.

1 Q. Mr. Vukovic brought food to Muslim families, right? That is what

2 you have told us.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Muslims were also detained in KP Dom, right?

5 A. Yes. And not only Muslims.

6 Q. Who else was detained in KP Dom?

7 A. All people who had breached the law. There were Serbs in the KP

8 Dom and everyone -- anyone.

9 Q. The Muslims detained in KP Dom, they hadn't breached the war --

10 the laws, right? They were not convicts of crimes, were they?

11 A. I don't know that.

12 Q. You described to us how in the beginning of the war the flats were

13 searched, in your building as well, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you did not know the young -- the men who did it, the soldiers

16 who did it, right?

17 A. I did not.

18 Q. Were they non-locals?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know where they came from? Could you hear it from the

21 accents?

22 A. Not really, but perhaps the accent was Montenegrin.

23 Q. You told us that the people in your neighbourhood, the Serbs and

24 the Muslims, had to show their weapons to these people who searched even

25 though they had permits, right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What happened after that? Were the weapons returned?

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. Did your husband have a weapon?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You said that this Muslim family feared for Jasko Dervisevic that

7 he would be arrested, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you went to Mr. Vukovic, when you saw him, for help, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You thought he would be able to help, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In what capacity could he be able to help? What was his position

14 that you thought that?

15 A. Not really. Nothing. I just asked him whether he could do

16 anything. He didn't have any position to speak of, anything.

17 Q. But why did you ask him, him in particular?

18 A. Because he's a friend of mine, and because I saw him. I didn't

19 have anyone else to address.

20 Q. Did he wear a uniform, and had he a weapon at that time?

21 A. He did have some sort of a uniform, but he didn't have a weapon.

22 He didn't have a weapon then on him.

23 Q. But he was a soldier, right?

24 A. He had a uniform of sorts without any insignia. I didn't know

25 what kind of a uniform it was.

1 Q. He actually went to these soldiers, and he could help. He could

2 not only help this Jasko, but also some other Muslim men, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You have told us how he also helped when soldiers broke into the

5 flat of the Mandzo family, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. These soldiers, did you know them?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Can you tell us where they came from? Could you hear from what

10 they said, from their accent?

11 A. Well, they seemed to be Montenegrins.

12 Q. You told us that you called the Witness DQ to help, and you also

13 called for Zoran Vukovic to help. Why Zoran Vukovic again?

14 A. Because in those days, I spent most of my time at home with my

15 mother. My son and husband were in Belgrade, so there were no men close

16 to me. So I would address the two of them. That is why. They were my

17 best friends.

18 Q. Mr. Vukovic, did he come in uniform and with his weapon to

19 intervene?

20 A. He did have a weapon. I don't know how he was dressed. I can't

21 remember.

22 Q. When he intervened and when he cocked his weapon, only then the

23 soldiers gave in and left, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Vukovic was a member of the Dragan Nikolic Unit, right?

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1 A. Yes. That was the unit in town. Yes.

2 Q. Without saying the name, do you know the name of the commander of

3 this unit?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were you present in Foca during the entire war?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were present when the Aladza mosque was blown up in August

8 1992, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you recall when it happened, the exact date?

11 A. No.

12 Q. It was the last mosque standing in August 1992, right?

13 A. I don't know anything about that.

14 Q. You told us that in the war, Serbs and Muslims left Foca because

15 they were afraid, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But the Serbs returned, didn't they?

18 A. Some did not. Not everybody returned.

19 Q. Did you have Muslim friends before the war?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. They do not live in Foca any more, right?

22 A. No.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination, Mr. Jovanovic?

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, very briefly.

1 Re-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

2 Q. Witness, can you tell me whether you know whether Zoran Vukovic

3 knew the Mandzo family?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could I just have a

6 look at a message I got, please.

7 Thank you, Your Honour. Those were all the questions I had.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to

9 the Trial Chamber. You may leave the witness box.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wished to

13 inform you that this concludes the list of our proposed witnesses.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I'd also like to find out from the other

15 counsel, are there any more witnesses for The Hague?

16 Mr. Kolesar?

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic?

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I wish to

20 inform you that I did have a telephone conversation yesterday with the

21 witness who was supposed to show up in Banja Luka when there was supposed

22 to be testimony by videolink.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Before we go into that, can we go into private

24 session, because these are protected witnesses

25 [Private session]

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13 pages 6034-6045 redacted – private session

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21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.00 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

23 September, 2000 at 10.00 a.m.

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