1 Monday, 23 October 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Kunarac, Vukovic, and Kovac.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. These are proceedings for the
9 rebuttal case for the Prosecution. Can we have the Prosecution, please.
10 The Court is proceeding under Rule 15 bis in view of Judge Pocar's
11 inability to sit with us.
12 The Prosecution.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have the two witnesses today,
14 191 and 87, and we would like to request the same protective measures for
15 the witnesses as they had during the case-in-chief. That would mean
16 closed session for the Witness 191, and voice and image alteration for the
17 Witness 87.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any submission on protective measures
19 which were last granted to the two witnesses?
20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: The same protective measures are granted, and can we
23 [Closed session]
13 pages 6080-6103 redacted – closed session
22 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.40 a.m.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please go ahead.
2 MS. KUO:
3 Q. Good morning, Witness.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness has to make the solemn declaration
5 because it's been a long time since the last time.
6 Witness, please make the solemn declaration. Stand up and make
7 the solemn declaration and then sit down.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: WITNESS 87
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
13 Q. Witness, you should have before you a sheet of paper that has your
14 name on it and also the number 87. Do you see it?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I'm seeing some hand signals from the
17 accused that they cannot hear or are not getting translation.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can counsel find out from the accused whether they
19 are getting the proceedings in a language they understand?
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I could
21 understand, the accused are not receiving an interpretation.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Registrar, could we have this checked out,
24 JUDGE HUNT: There was some trouble last time we were in this
25 courtroom, and it's a different number altogether to the one that we had
1 downstairs. From memory, it was either 8 or 9, the channel number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Well, the accused have to switch
3 to channel 8 if they want to hear the voice without it being distorted.
4 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, I just received information from
5 Mr. Kunarac that -- [translation in French]
6 JUDGE HUNT: I'm getting a French translation on the English
7 Channel there.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. Sorry.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The registrar is trying to find out.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Now, could the accused try to
11 switch to channel 7.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Channel 7 appears to be working for
13 Serbo-Croat for the accused, so the Prosecution can go ahead.
14 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution would like to
15 enter this sheet of paper with the names as a Prosecution exhibit.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, Madam Registrar, please?
17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] There will be Exhibit number 246
18 for the Prosecutor. It is under seal.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
20 MS. KUO:
21 Q. Witness, when you testified earlier, you were asked about
22 receiving food through the window of Klanfa's apartment, with a rope and a
23 bag or a basket. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, I remember that.
25 Q. How was it that you were able to make contact with the woman
1 living downstairs for her to give you food?
2 A. I and AS would knock at her window, which is below the window of
3 that apartment. I can't remember. I don't think we knew who lived
4 downstairs, but I think that we did not think about this. We would simply
5 knock at her window and she would come out, and then we would simply say
6 or, rather, ask for help and ask for food from her.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that the sound quality is very
8 bad. We can hardly discern what the witness is saying and there's lots of
10 JUDGE HUNT: It may be that the interpreters also need the
11 different number that the accused are using.
12 THE INTERPRETER: We have the same number.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the problem attended to, please?
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Could the witness come much closer
15 to the microphone. And as far as the problem is concerned with the
16 interpreters, the technical booth is looking after this, but the witness
17 would have to come much closer to the microphone and speak clearly into
18 the microphone.
19 MS. KUO:
20 Q. Witness, what kind of help did you ask from this woman?
21 A. We asked her for food.
22 Q. Why did you ask her for food?
23 A. We did not have any food in the apartment that we were staying
25 Q. Did you tell her why you were not able to get food? In other
1 words, were you able to leave the apartment? Did you tell her that?
2 A. I don't remember a lot about that.
3 Q. Were you able to leave the apartment to get food?
4 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I did not get an answer to that question.
5 There was no translation.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear an answer.
7 MS. KUO: Your Honour, perhaps I could ask the usher to move the
8 microphone closer to the witness.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher -- yes, please.
10 MS. KUO: I'll repeat my question.
11 Q. Were you able to leave the apartment to get food?
12 A. No. We could not get out of the apartment. We were locked in it.
13 Q. Did you get food from this woman downstairs on one occasion or
14 more than once?
15 A. Several times.
16 Q. Did you ever tell the woman that you and AS had misplaced the key
17 that would let you leave the apartment?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you and AS ever have a key that would let you leave the
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ever visit this woman downstairs?
23 A. Yes. Yes. I remember that we visited her once. I was there, AS
24 was there, and Kovac. I think it was only the three of us when we went to
25 visit her.
1 Q. Did Kovac take you there or did you ask to be taken to visit this
3 A. No. He took us.
4 Q. Were you ever able to visit anyone without Klanfa taking you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Were you ever able to visit other apartments to use a wood stove
7 to make coffee or heat food?
8 A. No, I do not remember that, that we went to some other apartments
9 to cook food or coffee.
10 Q. Did the woman downstairs ever send you food to Klanfa's apartment
11 by having a child bring it to you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever meet Kovac's mother?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did she or anyone else ever bring you food while you were in
16 Kovac's apartment?
17 A. We only got food from the lady who lived downstairs, one floor
18 beneath us.
19 Q. Did anyone ever come to take you out, to buy things, for example?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did a woman ever come to Kovac's apartment while you were there
22 and you made her coffee?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did Kovac ever take you to his parents' house?
25 A. Not to the house, but once he did take me to a building where I
1 think his parents lived, but I did not enter the building; I waited
3 Q. Why did you wait outside?
4 A. He told me to wait outside.
5 Q. Did you ever meet his parents, then?
6 A. No.
7 Q. On the Orthodox Christmas, that is, the 6th of January, 1993, do
8 you remember where you were that day, or that evening, rather?
9 A. No. No, I don't remember this date exactly. No. No.
10 Q. While you were in Kovac's apartment, was there ever an incident
11 where a soldier tried to break in?
12 A. Yes, there was one such incident.
13 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened during that incident?
14 A. I don't remember all the details about that, but I do remember
15 that this soldier knocked at the door, and soon later he started banging
16 on the door. Then he tried to barge in through the door. I remember that
17 I went to the terrace and that I was standing by the railing on the
18 terrace. I know that I was close to simply jumping off that terrace. I
19 don't know what happened when this man ultimately barged in, where AS
20 was. I can't remember how the lady who lived downstairs called Klanfa. I
21 don't remember that exactly. Maybe AS did that.
22 I do remember, though, that while I was standing at that terrace,
23 that 10 or 15 minutes later, perhaps, I saw Klanfa in front of the
24 building and that he came upstairs to the apartment. Then I went down and
25 went to the room where this soldier was. I think he was drunk. That's
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts
1 where AS was too. And soon after that Klanfa came to the apartment. I
2 cannot recall any further details as to what had happened. I just know
3 that Klanfa simply threw him out of the apartment. I don't remember any
4 of those details.
5 Q. Did you ask the woman downstairs to call Klanfa?
6 A. I don't remember that. I said that it was AS, perhaps, who had
7 done this. I don't remember that I called her, that I called her asking
8 her to call Klanfa. Perhaps AS did that. At that time I was at the
10 Q. How were you feeling when you were standing on the balcony?
11 A. That's a question that's difficult to answer. I think -- I think
12 that at that moment -- I don't know what I was thinking at that moment.
13 Some thoughts simply came into my mind that all of this should end somehow
14 and that I could not take it any longer, that some of them would do what I
15 had already been through at Karaman's House. I think that all of that led
16 to my wishing to have this brought to an end in some way. But I couldn't
17 do it. I was full of fear. When I was thinking about doing that, I was
18 full of fear, as I stood on that terrace with those thoughts in my mind.
19 I don't know. I simply don't know how to explain this. I don't know how
20 to explain this as it should be explained, I guess. I don't know.
21 Q. Are you saying, Witness, that you thought about killing yourself
22 at that moment?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did Kovac say anything to you when he came to the apartment and
25 threw the soldier out?
1 A. I don't remember whether he said anything.
2 Q. Do you remember when this incident happened?
3 A. I can't remember that either, unfortunately, but I think it was
4 wintertime. It was cold, at any rate.
5 Q. In the apartment where Klanfa kept you, did he have a television
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did he ever sell that television set before you were taken away to
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did Kovac ever bring you sanitary supplies?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you and AS have any sanitary supplies available to you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did Kovac ever take you to any parties?
16 A. A party? No. Usually it was pubs, cafes, things like that.
17 Q. Did Kovac ever take you to visit his relatives or friends in their
18 houses or apartments?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Was there ever an incident or a time when you were taken to
21 somebody's apartment and there was eating and dancing?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did Kovac take you and AS to cafes?
24 A. That happened not only on one occasion, it happened several times.
25 Q. Do you recall the names of any of those cafes?
1 A. I just remember one that was called Linea. I can't remember the
3 Q. Were you ever able to go to cafes alone, that is, without Kovac?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If someone were to say that he saw you in the Cafe Linea 15 or
6 20 times without Kovac, what would you say to that?
7 A. Absolute lie.
8 Q. Were you ever at a cafe with Witness 191, her husband, AS, and
9 another girl?
10 A. No. No, I don't remember that.
11 Q. Did you know Witness 191? Had you seen her before?
12 A. No, I don't remember having seen her.
13 Q. You know who she is? According to the Prosecution Exhibit 246,
14 you know her name?
15 A. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
16 Q. Do you know, when I say "Witness 191," who I'm referring to?
17 A. Yes, I know who you are referring to, but I didn't know her from
18 before. I don't remember her from Foca.
19 Q. While you were kept in Kovac's apartment, did you ever see this
21 A. I don't remember having seen her.
22 Q. Do you recall where you were on the Orthodox New Year, that is,
23 the 13th of January, 1993?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you ever at a cafe where there was a party?
1 A. There was one such occasion. I think it was at Linea. There was
2 a party of sorts, but I don't know what it was occasioned by. I know that
3 there were many people there. They drank a lot. There were very many
4 soldiers there.
5 Q. Did people dance at that party?
6 A. I don't remember that.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Could we interrupt the
8 proceedings? We do not receive the interpretation into French right now.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Could we have that corrected, please.
10 It appears to be break time.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It seems to be working again
13 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take our normal break and resume the
14 proceedings at 11.30 sharp. I know that we are just beyond 1100 hours,
15 but we are returning to the courtroom at 11.30 sharp.
16 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution can continue. We are informed
19 that everything is now working.
20 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Witness, just before we broke, you were describing an occasion at
22 the Cafe Linea where there were a lot of soldiers and a lot of drinking.
23 Did you dance on that occasion?
24 A. No.
25 Q. When you were taken out by Kovac to cafes, were those fun
1 occasions for you or did you go because you had to go?
2 A. Because I had to go, because he wanted me to go.
3 Q. When Kovac took you out, did he introduce you to other people?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How did other people treat you when he took you out with him?
6 A. Well, I didn't meet that many other people. I didn't talk to that
7 many people. But the feeling I had was that they knew what I was and why
8 I was there.
9 Q. How did Kovac treat you when you were out with other people?
10 A. I don't really know how to explain that. Nothing particular. He
11 wasn't too -- he wasn't, say, either too bad, he didn't treat me too
12 ugly. Well, not normal.
13 Q. Did he, in your presence, ever tell anyone that you were his
15 A. I don't remember that.
16 Q. And earlier you said you had the impression that people knew who
17 you were. How did you get that impression? I know it's hard to describe,
18 but could you please try. Did they say or do anything that gave you that
20 A. I can't really explain that, but I -- because I didn't really talk
21 much to anyone. I simply don't know. That was just a feeling I had. I
22 don't know why.
23 Q. Did people ask you about yourself?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever give the impression that you were Kovac's girlfriend?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever tell anyone that he had saved you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you ever send Kovac a postcard or a card, thanking him?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you ever tell anyone that you were in love with Kovac?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And my last question to you, Witness, is: Were you ever in love
9 with Kovac?
10 A. No.
11 MS. KUO: That's all, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination, Mr. Kolesar?
13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm afraid
14 I have some problems with the microphone.
15 THE INTERPRETER: It might be good for Mr. Kolesar to take off his
17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I'm being told by the technicians
18 that your microphone is far too high. If you turned it down, we could
19 avoid this effect that we're hearing right now, because you're too close
20 to the microphone.
21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I've just done that, but I'm still
22 getting the echo.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:
24 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?
25 A. Good morning. I can hear you, yes. Good morning.
1 Q. You stated that you did not know why you were transferred from
2 Karaman's House to Foca.
3 A. No, I did not know that.
4 Q. Witness 75, you know who that was?
5 A. Let me see. No.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Kolesar switch off his
7 microphone each time after he has put a question. So whenever he has put
8 a question, please turn your microphone down -- off.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I had not completed my question, and
10 that is why my microphone was still on.
11 A. No. No, I don't know.
12 Q. Witness 75 said that men who had taken you from Karaman's House to
13 Foca said they were taking you because they did not have any more food for
14 you, and that they would therefore take you to Kovac, who would look after
15 you, where you would be protected, and that nobody else would come there
16 and that nobody else would touch you there. Now, how would you -- what
17 would be your comment about that statement of Witness 75, who spent some
18 short time with you?
19 A. Why we were taken from Karaman's house to Foca, I really know
20 nothing about that.
21 Q. A moment ago, you were asked to describe the incident with the
22 soldier who broke into the flat that winter.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was that the same soldier who asked you to make a sign of the
25 cross when you were taken from Karaman's house to Foca?
1 A. I don't remember that.
2 Q. You said that from the balcony you could see Kovac enter the
3 building. Was he using a crutch at the time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Does that mean that that incident happened at the time when he was
6 wounded and needed a crutch to move about?
7 A. Yes, I think so. I believe I know that -- I know when he was
8 wounded. I know he had a cast. I think you're right.
9 Q. Do you recall him disarming that soldier or, rather, more
10 specifically, take his pistol from him?
11 A. That I do not remember.
12 Q. Do you remember if Kovac sent you downstairs to that relative to
13 make coffee?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did Kovac tell you that after the incident with that soldier he
16 ran into trouble and had to report to the Command, where they requested
17 him to turn over a pistol?
18 A. No. No, I don't remember.
19 Q. You confirmed today that you went out with Kovac to coffee shops.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember an incident at the Linea when a drunken soldier
22 began to make some comments or, rather, to say some nasty things to you
23 and then Kovac threw him out of the place?
24 A. No, I don't remember that.
25 Q. It is a fact, isn't it, that you went with him to the coffee shop
1 which is in the centre of the town and one which is near the place called
2 the Lepa Brena, in a place -- in a locality called Ribarska, where they
3 had pool tables?
4 A. I remember one who was at Ribarska, but I don't really remember
5 what he looked like. And I think there was another one in Donje Polje,
6 but I don't remember the name. There's also a third one that I remember.
7 And there was yet another place, another coffee shop, but again I don't
8 know what it was called, and it was where the cinema was.
9 Q. Did you ever, when you went to all those coffee shops, play pool
10 with him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You described the incident at the Linea. It was wintertime, and
13 you said that there were many soldiers and they were eating and drinking.
14 Would you agree that that was Orthodox -- this New Year's Eve between the
15 13th and 14th of January?
16 A. All I remember is that there were very many troops, very many
17 people there, that they were all drinking, but I can't really remember if
18 that was the New Year or any particular date.
19 Q. During my cross-examination on the 5th of April this year,
20 page 1807, when I asked you about the names of the coffee shops, you told
21 us that you did not remember any of them, yet you tell us you remember the
22 Linea. Now, whence in discrepancy?
23 A. I can't really say. Perhaps at that time it slipped my memory.
24 Perhaps simply it just came. I don't know.
25 Q. Today when the Prosecutor asked you about Kovac's mother, you said
1 that she never came nor did she ever bring food. Is that correct?
2 A. It is, yes.
3 Q. Also on the 5th of April this year, in the cross-examination on
4 page 1805, when I asked you, "Did Kovac's mother ever come and bring food
5 to you?" your answer was that you could not remember.
6 A. Yes. Yes. I don't remember his mother -- I don't remember
7 Klanfa's mother ever coming to us.
8 Q. So what is correct, what you're telling me or what you told the
9 Prosecutor, "I don't remember," or, "She did not come"? Which is
11 A. She did not come.
12 Q. Then on the 5th of April, why did you tell me that you did not
13 remember if she came?
14 A. Well, perhaps it was my fault, perhaps the way I pronounced those
15 words, but both times it meant that that woman really did not -- I mean,
16 Klanfa's mother did not come to the flat.
17 Q. Let me refresh your memory. It was not your fault. During the
18 cross-examination with me on the 5th of April, you answered, "I don't
19 remember," 49 times to my questions, and today you answered all those
20 questions specifically. You did give answers to all those questions.
21 So --
22 A. And what do you mean by that?
23 Q. I'm merely telling you how you're answering the questions, and
24 what I think about that I shall say in my closing argument. It has
25 nothing do with you.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts
1 A. If I say, "I don't remember," it means I do not remember. And if
2 I say "No," then that means no.
3 Q. Yes, but on the 5th of April, you told me, "I don't remember," and
4 to the Prosecutor today, you answered, "No."
5 A. Quite.
6 Q. So will you please explain why? Why did you say, "I don't
7 remember," then and now you said "No"?
8 A. This difference -- I don't know. I don't really know what to
10 Q. Did Kovac's mother give you a red scarf, a red shawl?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did Kovac's mother, on one occasion, bring you a gas lamp for you
13 to use because there was no electricity?
14 A. No.
15 Q. But nevertheless, it is a fact that Kovac's mother came and
16 brought you food, isn't it?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And it is a fact that he took you to her place on a number of
19 occasions, to his parents' house, didn't he?
20 A. No. I was never in his parents' flat, in Klanfa's parents' flat.
21 Q. Do you know if Kovac had a brother?
22 A. From what Klanfa himself told me, he told me that he had a brother
23 who had been killed, and that is the only brother that I know about. I
24 don't know about any others.
25 Q. You were asked by the Prosecutor and you said that you did not
1 visit relatives and friends; you did not go to visit Kovac's friends and
2 relatives. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is. Only in that one case to Klanfa's female relative.
4 Q. Which relative do you mean?
5 A. I mean that lady who lived on the floor below.
6 Q. On the 5th of April, page 108 -- 107, excuse me -- I asked you if
7 Kovac had taken you to friends and relatives, and your answer was, "I
8 don't remember." After that I asked you if family Jojic rings a bell, and
9 you said no. Yet to the Prosecutor today you said that you never visited
10 any relatives or friends of the accused Kovac. Will you please explain
11 the discrepancy, the answer that you gave me during the examination the
12 5th of April and your answer to the Prosecutor today?
13 A. As for Klanfa's family, relatives and friends, we never -- he
14 never took me to visit them, except in the case of his relative who lived
15 on the floor below.
16 Q. Why did, then, on the 5th of April, you say you did not remember?
17 A. Well, that's the same question. I don't know.
18 Q. And during the time that you spent in the flat, and that was four
19 months, how often were they absent because they were out on the ground,
20 because they went to the front line or -- I don't know -- to perform
21 various tasks?
22 A. You mean all together during those four months or ...
23 Q. I mean, yes, all together or in various -- on various occasions.
24 When they went, how long would they stay away?
25 A. In the beginning, I think they would go every day but would be
1 back in the evening, or sometimes two days, two nights. But later on it
2 would be a week or perhaps two, but that was for a very short time. And
3 then after that it changed again so that one would go and one would stay
5 Q. So in the flat would be you and AS, isn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If one accepts what you are telling us, that at times you would
8 stay all by yourself for seven days or even a fortnight locked, then how
9 did you survive without any food?
10 A. Well, there wasn't much food, and what food there was, there were
11 tins, and Kostic and Klanfa used them. And when there was no food at all,
12 as I have already said, then Klanfa's relative would help us.
13 Q. Could you perhaps be more specific? How many times did she help
14 you out during that period of time?
15 A. Well, I can't give you the exact number, but it was more than two
16 or three times.
17 Q. Not more than that?
18 A. Well, I remember three times, but I can't say whether it was three
19 times or perhaps more times.
20 Q. And otherwise, when she did not bring you any food, how did you
21 survive then?
22 A. Well, it wasn't always that there was no food around. If none of
23 the two of them would be there, then they would leave some food for us.
24 If there was no food, then Klanfa's relative would help us. And if there
25 was no food, then we'd do nothing.
1 Q. If my information is correct, you at that time used to smoke.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how did you get cigarettes if you were locked?
4 A. Well, that again, same thing applies to cigarettes as to food. We
5 either got them from Klanfa or his relative.
6 Q. The fact is that you were not locked and that you could go out and
7 buy both food and cigarettes and that you were buying cigarettes from that
8 relative whom I mentioned, whose surname I mentioned last time; isn't it
10 A. No, absolutely not. We could not get out. We were locked. And
11 we could not go out alone on our own, at any rate, and we could not go out
12 to do our shopping.
13 Q. You said that you had to take care of the apartment that you lived
14 in to keep it clean. Do you think the fact that you cleaned the
15 apartment, that you cooked for yourself and for them when they were there,
16 do you think that is not normal or is there something wrong with that?
17 A. I don't think that it is not normal. It's not that we were
18 involved in physical labour, exertion of any kind. This is housework,
19 which is normal.
20 Q. Also during my cross-examination on the 5th of April, also on page
21 1802 and 1803, I asked you whether you went to another lady neighbour who
22 lived in the same entrance, I mean in addition to Kovac's relative who
23 lived downstairs, in order to prepare coffee when there was no
24 electricity. Today in response to the same question put by the Prosecutor
25 you said decidedly that you did not, whereas in April you told me that you
1 did not remember. What is your comment in relation to that discrepancy
2 that exists?
3 A. Again the same question. I don't know. Perhaps it is the feeling
4 I have at the moment when you put a question to me. Perhaps -- I don't
6 Q. Also you said that you took Kovac's uniform, that a soldier had
7 brought when Kovac had been wounded and was in hospital; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How could you take the uniform if you were locked in?
10 A. That soldier had the key. The soldier who brought Klanfa's
12 Q. In the cross-examination that is not the answer you gave me. You
13 gave a completely different answer to me.
14 A. Again, I don't know. I know that we did not have the key. I know
15 that we were alone at the time when Klanfa was wounded, that we did not
16 have the key at all. The only thing that could have happened was that the
17 soldier who came with this uniform had the key from Klanfa or something
18 like that.
19 Q. I really don't know what your answer is. Did he have the key or
20 do you assume that he could have had the key?
21 A. We did not have the key, so he had to have the key.
22 Q. What did the two of you do while they were at the front line?
23 A. Well, we didn't do that many things. We would spend most of our
24 time in bed because it was cold, and for the most time there wasn't any
25 electricity. So we lay in bed and talked. If there was electricity, then
1 it was a bit different. We could prepare coffee if there was any. We
2 could watch television or something like that.
3 Q. And what did you do when they were not at the front line, when
4 they were there at the apartment?
5 A. I don't know how to describe that. There's nothing special about
6 it, but at any rate, we did not feel as free as we did when we were on our
7 own. I don't know how to explain this.
8 Q. When there was electricity, did you watch television and listen to
9 the radio together with them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would Kovac recite poetry to you, Jesenjin [phoen], and other
13 A. No.
14 Q. He never recited any poetry to you, nothing?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you remember one occasion when AS had a toothache that the two
17 of you went to the pharmacy together to get some medicine?
18 A. When you say "together," who are you referring to?
19 Q. I'm referring to Kovac and you.
20 A. I cannot remember that.
21 Q. When you heard that Kovac was wounded, why did you cry and why did
22 you ask to go visit him?
23 A. Cry? I don't think so.
24 Q. But you asked to go to the hospital to see him?
25 A. No.
1 Q. While he was at home in bed after his wounding, did a nurse come
2 in to bandage his wounds?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What was that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Are you sure the answer's "no"?
7 A. Yes, I'm quite sure.
8 Q. Did he get various things for your own hygiene from a nurse and
9 also some medicines when you needed them? When I'm saying this about
10 personal hygiene, I'm referring to sanitary towels. Did you get those
11 things from this nurse that he had asked?
12 A. No.
13 Q. At the time when he was wounded and when he was in bed in the
14 apartment, were those other two girls in the apartment as well?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did I understand well? You said "no"?
17 A. Yes, I said "no." Only AS was there.
18 Q. At the time when they were not out on assignment, did this friend
19 of Kovac's go with AS to an apartment in Donje Polje and did the two of
20 you remain on your own?
21 A. Yes, I think that's correct. Yes. Yes, on one occasion we were
22 at that apartment. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Did AS keep a diary? Did she write poems?
24 A. I don't remember that.
25 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Trial Chamber, you stated
1 that you and AS did not hear the entire conversation between Kovac,
2 Kostic, and those two Montenegrins. They were in the big room and you
3 were in the hall, and they were negotiating your sale for
4 500 Deutschemarks; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. I remember that we were standing in the hall, and we heard
6 this conversation, and we heard what all of this was about.
7 Q. Did I understand you correctly? When you say that you were
8 standing in the hallway, it was you and AS who were standing there
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. AS, in her statement before the Trial Chamber, said that you had
12 learned that you had been sold only en route to Montenegro, from the two
13 Montenegrins who were joking about that.
14 A. I don't know about that. I remember that I heard about this in
15 the hall of Klanfa's apartment while they were talking, and what
16 Witness AS said, I can't say.
17 Q. A minute ago, you said that both of you were in the hall and that
18 both of you heard this; is that right?
19 A. Yes. Yes, we both heard that and we were both there. Why
20 AS testified differently from me is something that I cannot say to you.
21 Q. The fact is that you or AS are not saying the truth. The fact is
22 that Kovac paid the Montenegrins 500 Deutschemarks in order to have you
23 taken out. Is that correct?
24 A. No. It is absolutely not correct.
25 Q. The fact is that when you were leaving Foca, you got a pretty
1 sweater as a present from Kovac; is that correct?
2 A. I cannot remember that.
3 Q. How come it is precisely that that you cannot remember, whereas
4 you remember other things that are less meaningful?
5 A. Well, I can't explain that, unfortunately.
6 Q. You lived there for four months. Do you know whether Kovac had a
7 car and whether he had passed his driver's test at all?
8 A. I can't remember that. I can't remember whether he had a car and
9 whether he had passed his driver's test. When we would go out of the
10 apartment, he would not drive a car. But whether he had a car and whether
11 he had passed his driver's test, that I cannot say.
12 Q. Did I understand you correctly? You said that he did not have a
13 car when you went out of the apartment?
14 A. Yes. Yes. We would usually go on foot.
15 Q. Do you know that Serb soldiers were forbidden to go to Montenegro
16 and that any such travel would be considered desertion?
17 A. No. No.
18 Q. Is it correct that when you parted, you took all your clothes,
19 including the presents that you got from Kovac and his mother?
20 A. First of all, I did not have any clothes of my own. All of these
21 clothes I got here or there. As for presents from Klanfa, I don't
22 remember any presents from Klanfa.
23 Q. If you were locked up all the time, who could you get clothes
25 A. I was not referring to clothes at the time while we were there. I
1 was referring to clothes in the entire period during which I was
2 detained. Quite a few of those things that I had taken with me were from
3 Karaman's house. I think there were some clothes in the apartment where
4 Klanfa lived.
5 Q. You said that when you came to Montenegro, you worked in a cafe.
6 Where did you live?
7 A. We lived -- we lived at the place of one of the three soldiers who
8 took us across the border to Montenegro.
9 Q. I assume that different people came to this coffee bar, soldiers,
10 policemen, people like that.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In this other state where there was rule of law that you came to,
13 why did you not report everything that had happened to you to these
14 people, all of the things that you described to us here?
15 A. These soldiers who took us across the border, if we were to
16 compare those soldiers, who were from Montenegro, and the soldiers who
17 were from Foca, for example, for me, there was no difference between the
18 two. We could not feel free to say anything.
19 Q. Yes, but policemen came from the regular Montenegrin police; is
20 that right?
21 A. I can't remember exactly who came, but that has nothing to do with
22 it. That is a place -- I mean, it wasn't that much of a difference
23 between that place and Foca.
24 Q. Is it correct that at the time you worked in that coffee bar a
25 certain Panta came from Foca and that you sent a letter to Kovac from him
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts
1 on two sheets of paper that were torn out of a notebook? Is that
3 A. No.
4 Q. I'm sorry, I did not hear your answer.
5 A. No. No.
6 Q. During the previous cross-examination, your answer was that you
7 did not remember.
8 A. We're getting back to where we were. I simply cannot explain
9 these things. I don't know.
10 Q. The fact is that in that letter, you wrote that you were working
11 in a cafe, that you were getting very generous tips, that you were
12 grateful to them, and that you would never forget. Isn't that so?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And it is also a fact that there was a heart drawn at the end of
15 the letter, pierced with an arrow, and it said "Klanfa."
16 A. No. I never wrote any letter, so that I really cannot say what
17 was in that letter.
18 Q. It is a fact that many witnesses referred to that letter. Isn't
19 it true that you wrote such a letter?
20 A. No, it is not true that I wrote any letter.
21 Q. It is a fact that there were only two of you in that flat in
22 addition to Kovac and Kostic, and for a short while there were two girls
23 more, you say, some seven days or so; that you had at your disposal the
24 whole flat; that you could move about freely; that you went to cafes; and
25 that the satisfaction of your needs, I mean, hygiene and everything else,
1 was all right. You were not exposed to harassment by Kovac, as you put it
2 yourself, or by anybody else, unlike, for instance, in contrast with what
3 happened to you at the school, in Karaman's House, and places like that.
4 Isn't that correct?
5 A. It is correct that there were two more girls, but they were there
6 for a very short while -- I don't know if it was seven days or what -- in
7 those early days. I don't really remember them very well. As for
8 harassment, there were not many people who did that, who harassed me, who
9 ill-treated me. One of them was Kovac at that time, in those early days,
10 and then for a long time after that. And then there was also Kostic. In
11 addition to those two, there were no others.
12 Q. How can you say that you had the same situation in the flat with
13 only two of them, and at the Partizan school centre, at Karaman's, where
14 there were more of them, where the living conditions were much harder,
15 much more dangerous?
16 A. Same. It was the same situation, because rape is something that
17 draws a certain equality between Partizan and Karaman's House and that
18 flat. That is how I look at those three situations. To me, they are the
19 same. And if you want me to say that in a certain respect the situation
20 in Klanfa's flat was better, well, in a way it could be so, because there
21 is a difference between being raped by one or two individuals and being
22 raped by 20, or who knows how many.
23 Q. Are you trying to tell us that apart from your affair with Kovac,
24 you also had an affair with Kostic?
25 A. Yes. I was ill-treated by both of them, by Kovac and by Kostic.
1 Q. But earlier you said that it was Kovac who had intercourse with
2 you and that Kostic had intercourse with AS. Now you are changing it; you
3 are saying that Kovac also had intercourse with AS. Now, which is
5 A. This is correct. I and AS would have confided in each other. So
6 that Kovac did not molest (redacted), but Kostic did molest me.
7 Q. And did you tell Kovac about it?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Why not?
10 A. Because Kostic usually molested me when Kovac was away. It began
11 to happen at the time when they took shifts, a week or two. That is, one
12 would go, another one would stay behind. And when that happened for the
13 first time -- the first time that happened, when Kostic raped me, he
14 wanted to cut my face with a knife and threatened me if I told anyone
15 about it, even AS or Kovac.
16 Q. And where was AS when that happened?
17 A. AS was in the next room.
18 Q. But then she could hear what was going on in the adjacent room,
19 couldn't she?
20 A. I guess so, but I don't know.
21 Q. Last time you said that one could hear very well all the goings-on
22 in the next room.
23 A. Well, but it doesn't mean you could always hear it. Perhaps in
24 some cases you could hear what was going on in the next room, but not
1 Q. It is a fact that Kovac helped you and rescued you from the hell
2 of war, and you are here giving false testimony. So will you tell us
3 why? Why don't you tell us that he helped you?
4 A. To begin --
5 Q. And that you were -- that you liked him?
6 A. To begin with, I did not like him. Secondly, it's not true that
7 he helped me. To be grateful? There's nothing to be grateful for,
8 because -- because -- I really don't see why should I be grateful.
9 Because he raped me? Because Kostic raped me? Because he sold me to some
10 Montenegrins? I don't know.
11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
12 further questions.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination by the Prosecution?
14 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence on
16 this second occasion to the Tribunal. You are free to go.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE MUMBA: We're supposed to move into open session and
19 continue with our proceedings to find out where we are, because we don't
20 seem to have completed the Defence case yet.
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, any information as to what stage we
23 are at with medical examinations for your client, Zoran Vukovic?
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. The
25 latest information that I have is quite informal, and all I know comes
1 from my client. What I do know is that the ultrasound examination has
2 been completed, that yesterday they decided to make another blood
3 analysis, and it was done yesterday. But he does not know -- he is not
4 sure if it has to do with the previous examination or is it for some
5 earlier reasons that had to do with his ulcer, but he is not sure why did
6 they have to take his blood for analysis again.
7 Another thing that I can say is that the doctor who conducted the
8 ultrasound examination, he hinted at some possibility -- I'm repeating --
9 all I know is from what Mr. Vukovic told me, and really he is not
10 sufficiently qualified to tell me about it all, but that that doctor might
11 have said something about the ultrasound not being a procedure which could
12 really bring to light, detect, what they were after, so that --
13 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I don't think -- as you say, that he is not in a
14 position, he is not a medical person, I don't think we should have that at
15 all, because we haven't got the reports filed yet. Yes. We can find out
16 that from the registry, as to when the results will be filed so that they
17 can be provided to the experts for their own comments.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registry was informed this
19 morning that this report had only just been filed. It is in Dutch at the
20 moment, so we have to have it translated into English and into B/C/S
21 before it is filed with the registry. But normally we should get all the
22 translations today, and we should be in a position to forward the reports
23 to the both experts for the Defence and the Prosecutor straight away so
24 they can file their final conclusions.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest that when the registrar sends the
2 report, the translated report to the two experts, that they make inquiries
3 as to when the experts will be able to give their report upon that report,
4 because we are now running very much out of time. It may turn out that
5 neither party still wishes -- still does not wish -- I'm sorry. I'll
6 start that again.
7 It may turn out that both parties may not wish to have the
8 doctors' reports tendered, or even if they are tendered, they do not wish
9 to ask the doctors any questions, but we've got to know this as soon as
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The Registry is going to get in
12 touch as soon as possible with the Registry's expert so their report could
13 be filed straight away.
14 As far as the Defence expert's report is concerned, I shall make
15 sure that I get in touch with Mrs. Lopicic so that she can send this
16 report straight away to the Defence's report [sic], because we don't have
17 the Defence expert's fax number. So we will have to go through the
18 Defence counsel so that the expert can receive the report drafted by the
19 Detention Unit's expert.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps it might be a kind thing to offer
21 Mrs. Lopicic the use of the Registry's fax to get it to the doctor as soon
22 as possible, together with a request by her to the expert that the expert
23 tell us when he's going to give his report. It will at least save some
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. I believe that the Defence
1 counsel are aware of the Registry's fax number. So I'm sure that we shall
2 be able to proceed as quickly as possible.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Jovanovic, you wanted to say
5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I simply wanted
6 to seek an explanation, if possible. Last time, at the last hearing, I
7 was given 24 hours to report after receiving the expert report. That is
8 roughly what the record says.
9 Now, do I understand that these 24 hours begin -- that we begin to
10 count down since the moment the experts filed their report rather than as
11 the minute when this doctor submitted his report? I want to avoid
12 misunderstandings about when does these 24 hours begin, and I really do
13 not want to miss the deadline. So when does actually the countdown
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's clear now, Mr. Jovanovic, that it is
17 after the Defence expert and the Prosecution -- I'm sorry -- the Registry
18 expert have comment -- have put in their submissions or comments on the
19 report from the ultrasound examination. So that is the 24-hour period.
20 JUDGE HUNT: That is 24 hours within which to state whether you
21 want the doctors to be called to give evidence. That's the period that
22 you've been given.
23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It applies to the Prosecution as well. If
25 they feel that they want to cross-examine either expert, then they should
1 do so within 24 hours.
2 Yes, Mr. Kolesar.
3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my first application
4 when I responded to the Prosecutor's request to Rule 85 to rebut the
5 testimonies of our witnesses, I said that in line with 85(A)(iv), we
6 should also seek the right to rejoinder to then challenge the Prosecutor's
8 With all due respect, with regard to the comments by His Honour
9 Judge Hunt, I would have to go really through the transcript and consult
10 my client, and I should like to know which would be the deadline for me to
11 provide my response in writing. I would suggest either to be granted
12 either 48 hours or 72 hours, not more than that. But I would need some
14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, I may have missed something, but I did
15 not hear any of those witnesses, during their evidence in chief, raise any
16 new matter at all. As I heard it, the counsel for the Prosecution were
17 very careful to deal specifically with the matters which had been put by
18 your witnesses, and they were asked to accept or to deny the truth of what
19 had been said by your witnesses.
20 Now, if my impression is right, there could be absolutely no basis
21 upon which you would have a right to call evidence in rebuttal -- in
22 rejoinder, yes. But as I say, I may have missed something. I would be
23 very surprised, however, if I did.
24 You should have been able to pick it up by now. You were
25 listening. What do you suggest they said that went beyond a denial and an
1 explanation of the material which your witnesses put forward?
2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I spoke but under a
3 proviso. I said that I had to study the transcript first. I'm not making
4 any announcements in respect of Rule 85. I just don't want to miss any
5 deadlines in case I decide to file a request. After having studied the
6 transcript, I shall say what I would like to do.
7 What you are saying is most probably correct, so probably there
8 will be no such application.
9 JUDGE HUNT: The transcript, of course, will be available later on
10 today. How about 9.00 on Wednesday? And the application has to be filed
11 in writing.
12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. That's why
13 I got up to ask for a short deadline to be given to me so that I could
14 exactly state what I intend to do.
15 JUDGE HUNT: It would have been 9.00 tomorrow had it not been for
16 the United Nations holiday, let me assure you, because this will take you
17 a very little time, I should think.
18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I need little
19 time, but most probably tomorrow at 7.00 we will be going back to
20 Belgrade, tomorrow at 7.00 in the morning. So I can do that only tomorrow
21 afternoon or Wednesday morning, when I have arrive in Belgrade, that is.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: You have the rest of today to think about it, I'm
23 sure. These were short witnesses for today. And in your filing, if
24 you're going to ask for any opportunity for calling witnesses in
25 rejoinder, you must state what new evidence came out of the rebuttal
1 process and the reasons why you think you should call witnesses in
2 rejoinder, because you know that was explained to you before.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE MUMBA: In addition, you should indicate which -- who the
5 witnesses will be and their summaries, because the Trial Chamber has to be
6 satisfied that you have a case for rebuttal -- I mean, for rejoinder.
7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have understood that
8 absolutely, and I believe that we have dealt with that a few days ago.
9 I'm just trying to say that there might be a possibility of this kind.
10 But whether I will actually take such action, I will decide on that on the
11 basis of the transcript.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Thank you. Any matters from the
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Any matters from any of the Defence counsel?
16 So at this stage we haven't formally closed the Defence case,
17 although we are through with the witnesses for Mr. Kunarac as was
18 indicated before. We'll wait for the indication from the Defence counsel
19 for Mr. Radomir Kovac [Realtime transcript read in error "Mirko vats"] as
20 we have agreed with the deadline on Wednesday at 9.00.
21 The Trial Chamber expects both parties to keep a close watch on
22 what is happening with regard to the reports of the experts, so that as
23 soon as possible, we can get the submissions back. Thereafter, we will
24 issue a scheduling order as to what the next process will be and the dates
25 and times. We did issue a new schedule for closing arguments and that
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14 and French transcripts
1 continues to stand.
2 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.
3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I heard the name
4 "Radoslav Mirkovic." This is the first time we hear this. I don't know
5 what all of this is about.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Which name? Who pronounced -- who?
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] "Radoslav Mirko." That's what
8 the transcript says.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, no. It's a mistake. It's "Radomir Kovac."
10 JUDGE HUNT: It was not what I heard said. I agree that's what
11 the transcript shows. It was "Mr. Kovac."
12 JUDGE MUMBA: It was "Radomir Kovac." So that will be corrected.
13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: The proceedings will be adjourned for the moment
15 until further notice.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.45 p.m.