1 Thursday, 20th August 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and
9 Vladimir Santic, also known as "Vlado."
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.
11 Mr. Moskowitz?
12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President. I
13 believe, in the last day or two, there was some
14 discussion about the admissibility of some photographic
15 exhibits and also a directive from the Chamber to
16 produce a list of those photographic exhibits and the
17 dates or approximate dates when they were taken, and
18 then a suggestion to get together with coordinating
19 counsel, Mr. Pavkovic, and see if we could narrow the
21 We have done that, Mr. Pavkovic and I have
22 met this morning and have narrowed the issues, and we
23 wanted to simply announce that to the Court and to seek
24 the Court's guidance as to when would be an appropriate
25 time to deal with those issues.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask you, so how many
2 photographs are still not agreed upon?
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If the Court has in front of
4 it --
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: -- the index, I can read out
7 the numbers.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: P-15 through P-22, all of
10 those inclusive, and then one more, P-24, and I
11 believe, and Mr. Pavkovic can confirm that or correct
12 me if I'm wrong, that would be the extent of the
13 photographs at issue.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Pavkovic?
15 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I
16 can only confirm what the Prosecutor has said, and it
17 is the Defence counsel's standpoint that these
18 photographs, these exhibits, are to be contested.
19 We consider that these exhibits, if you will
20 allow me to summarise our standpoint -- Your Honour,
21 may I proceed? The Defence maintains that these
22 exhibits cannot be connected either by time or by place
23 with the events pertaining to the indictment.
24 As we know, these photographs might have been
25 taken, unfortunately, at any place in Bosnia during
1 this war. These are the reasons why the Defence cannot
2 accept what the Prosecutor considers to be evidence and
3 something that, according to the Prosecutor, should
4 confirm his statements.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I think most of
6 these photographs, or probably all of them, were taken
7 by Colonel Watters; is that correct? Or produced but
8 also -- yes, produced by him --
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: But taken -- I thought he had
11 himself taken or some of his soldiers had taken those
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, either he or his
14 soldiers had taken the photographs on the date
15 specified in the index. I believe he said he may have
16 taken the photograph number 24, the one of the
17 anti-aircraft gun, but my recollection is that he said,
18 if he didn't, it was common practice for his soldiers
19 to take photographs of big weapons in the area during
20 that time period. I believe he also testified that he
21 was in Bosnia from the period of February through May
22 of '93, and all these photographs at issue were taken
23 during that time period, and therefore, we believe are
24 quite relevant to the issues in this case.
25 I might also add that it appears to me that
1 the primary objection of the Defence is not necessarily
2 the admissibility of these photographs, that is,
3 whether they were properly identified by a competent
4 witness as being fair and accurate, but a broader
5 objection as to their pertinence to the legal or
6 factual issues of this case, and I think that is an
7 argument that is premature since the evidence in this
8 case is still at the preliminary stage and, in any
9 event, I think that's something the Court can take into
10 consideration at the end of the case, to determine what
11 evidence, if any, it should consider in determining the
12 guilt or innocence of any of the accused.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: We have just decided that all
14 of them will be admitted into evidence. They were
15 taken either by Colonel Watters or his soldiers, and he
16 testified in court to this effect, so we don't have any
17 doubt about their authenticity.
18 As to the direct relevance, if any, to the
19 facts which are in issue here, then we will, of course,
20 decide on this matter later on. But for the time
21 being, they are admitted into evidence.
22 So we may now move on to the
23 cross-examination of our witness, and I would like to
24 turn to Mr. Pavkovic to ask him whether he could
25 briefly indicate to us who is going to cross-examine
1 the witness.
2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, Petar Puliselic
3 will be the first Defence counsel to cross-examine the
4 witness. He will be followed by Ranko Radovic and then
5 by Mrs. Jandranka Slokovic-Glumac and the others will
6 then see whether all the essential questions have been
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Puliselic?
9 WITNESS: ESAD RIZVANOVIC
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Puliselic:
11 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, do you know to whom you made
12 statements before arriving at the International
13 Tribunal in connection with the events in Ahmici?
14 A. I don't understand the question.
15 Q. I'm asking you whether you know to what
16 organisation or to what service you made a statement or
17 statements in connection with the events in Ahmici.
18 You made a statement this year, which we have in our
19 files, so, please, can you tell us to whom you made
20 this statement, if you know?
21 A. At my police station to the investigators
22 investigating war crimes.
23 Q. Where?
24 A. In Prijedor.
25 Q. Were you perhaps told what you were supposed
1 to say and what persons you were supposed to mention?
2 A. I was not told who I should mention. I know
3 who I should mention, and I went through hell, and
4 that's what I talked about.
5 Q. Do you know what AID is, A-I-D, what this
6 stands for?
7 A. I don't understand this well.
8 Q. I wanted to ask you why your statement was
9 made as late as 1998, that is, five years after the
11 A. I can't answer that.
12 Q. You said that, as a refugee, you arrived in
13 Ahmici from Prijedor?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who drove you away from your house?
16 A. We were driven away by the Serbs.
17 Q. At about what time did you arrive in Ahmici?
18 A. I left Prijedor on the 22nd of August. We
19 spent some time in Travnik. And then I went to Vitez
20 where I spent some time in a children's holiday centre,
21 two nights, and then, sometime in early September --
22 Q. That's when you arrived in Ahmici?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you arrive in Ahmici by yourself?
25 A. I had a wife and a daughter.
1 Q. What was your intention? Was it your
2 intention to remain in Ahmici permanently or was it
3 only a temporary solution?
4 A. I considered it a temporary solution because
5 I wanted to go back where I had come from.
6 Q. Do you know perhaps how many other refugees
7 from Prijedor arrived in Ahmici?
8 A. I don't know the exact number, but there were
9 quite a few.
10 Q. Can you make an estimate?
11 A. A few families, but some of them went abroad
12 and some stayed.
13 Q. Did other refugees from other places arrive
14 in Ahmici?
15 A. Yes. There were people from Jajce, from
16 Tjentiste, from eastern Bosnia, people from Karaule,
17 from Visegrad, and some other places.
18 Q. You said that you did not consider staying in
19 Ahmici to be a long-term solution, that you intended to
20 go back to the place of your birth?
21 A. Of course.
22 Q. However, in the statement you made to AID,
23 which is the Muslim Intelligence, you said that it was
24 your intention to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina?
25 A. Well, yes, but I couldn't get the necessary
1 documents to leave.
2 Q. What was the obstacle to your getting these
4 A. You needed a lot of documents, a lot of
5 things, and I didn't have anything with me.
6 Q. You said in your statement that you had not
7 joined the Territorial Defence.
8 A. No, I hadn't.
9 Q. Why?
10 A. Well, I didn't.
11 Q. Did anyone promise to give you documents if
12 you did them a favour?
13 A. No, nobody promised me anything, nor did I
14 ask for anything of that sort.
15 Q. You mentioned in this court that you were
16 familiar with the location of the Papic house.
17 A. Yes, I passed by quite a few times as I was
18 going toward Vitez.
19 Q. Do you know who inhabited the house?
20 A. I couldn't say.
21 Q. Did you know Ivo Papic?
22 A. I knew him by sight. I knew Dragan best.
23 Q. How did you know him? Did you ever talk to
25 A. No, no, I only knew him by sight.
1 Q. How did you know this was Dragan Papic?
2 A. I know because other people saw him as I did.
3 Q. You said in this court that you had met
4 Dragan Papic on two occasions several days before the
5 main conflict and that he was wearing a black uniform?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that you had also seen him previously in
8 that black uniform?
9 A. Yes, that was before the beginning of the
11 Q. You also said that you had once seen him
12 carrying a sniper?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. I would like to ask you whether you know
15 something about weapons.
16 A. I know what a sniper is, I know what an
17 automatic rifle is.
18 Q. How do you know it was a sniper? Can you
19 describe it?
20 A. Because it has an optical device on it.
21 Q. Do you know what an Ustasha flag looks like?
22 A. I saw that it was something black, a black
24 Q. In Croatia, they put black flags on the house
25 of a deceased. What kind of flags did you see? You
1 mentioned it. Can you describe it?
2 A. I saw a big checkerboard flag flying from the
4 Q. Was that flag always there, the checkerboard
5 flag, or was it there only when they were celebrating a
6 holiday on feast days and so on?
7 A. I couldn't say that. But when I passed by, I
8 saw it, and that's how I described it.
9 Q. Have you ever seen any Muslim inhabitants of
10 Ahmici wearing a uniform?
11 A. No, none of them, because they were all
12 civilians and none of them were in the army where I
14 Q. But didn't you go further abroad from your
16 A. Well, a little, but I was full of fear. I
17 didn't like moving about a lot.
18 Q. Did you see any of the Muslims carrying
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. Do you know Mehrudin Bilic, nicknamed Mehro?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know if he had a weapon in his house?
24 A. I couldn't notice.
25 Q. Do you know Hazrudin Bilic?
1 A. Yes, I know him too.
2 Q. Do you happen to know whether he had a
4 A. No, I couldn't see anything of that kind.
5 MR. PULISELIC: Thank you. There are no more
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Puliselic.
8 Mr. Radovic?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 Microphone, please.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
12 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a photograph
13 yesterday, and when your finger happened to stop at a
14 place which you could not identify, he told you to put
15 a circle around it and that you would be doing a good
16 deed. I'm asking you, do you know what it is that you
17 put a circle around?
18 A. I don't understand the question.
19 Q. Allow me to repeat it. What is it that you
20 encircled in response to a request from the Prosecutor?
21 A. I was asked to encircle the house in which I
23 Q. And you did?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. RADOVIC: I'm asking because that was
1 something else that he said yesterday.
2 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, in order to make
3 things easier, would it be possible to have the exhibit
4 again, to show the photograph again?
5 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, before the
6 photograph is shown again to Mr. Rizvanovic, may I ask
7 him whether, in the meantime, that is, since
8 yesterday's testimony, he discussed this point with the
10 A. No, I did not.
11 MR. RADOVIC: Very well. Then let him show
12 on this photograph the Papic house and then let him
13 show the house where he was staying.
14 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we can't hear
15 the witness. He's not speaking into the microphone.
16 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, often it is
17 difficult to orient yourself in this photograph. The
18 best way to see it is to turn it around for
19 Mr. Rizvanovic. It may be strange to us, but he can
20 orient himself much better on this photograph if it's
21 turned around. That's the only explanation I can give
23 MR. RADOVIC: Can we see the witness
24 pointing, please, on the monitor?
25 A. This is where I stayed, this is where you
1 have to go forward. Somewhere here. Here somewhere.
2 Somewhere here.
3 Q. What is that? What is that?
4 A. The Papic house. If you go this way --
5 Q. Will you show it to us exactly, please?
6 A. This is the path, isn't it, going to Vitez,
7 isn't it? Here.
8 MR. RADOVIC: I can't see. Could the
9 technical booth please show us what the witness is
10 pointing to because I can't see what it is that he is
12 A. Here it is, it is this house. This house.
13 Q. What is that?
14 A. I passed along this road many times and I saw
15 his house here.
16 Q. Where is his house?
17 A. Here it is.
18 Q. Will you put a circle around it with a red
20 A. This is it.
21 Q. Please use a red marker to put a circle
22 around it.
23 A. Just a moment. Just a moment, please.
24 Q. Maybe a blue marker would be better so that
25 we can see the difference?
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Could you have a blue
3 A. It should be here somewhere.
4 MR. RADOVIC:
5 Q. Put a circle, please, a circle. A cross.
6 All right.
7 A. These were these houses. It should be here
8 somewhere. And up here is the road going --
9 Q. Ahmici.
10 A. Yes, Ahmici.
11 Q. Don't put a cross but put a circle around the
12 cross. Fine. Thank you.
13 You were saying something about black
14 uniforms and a black flag. My learned colleague
15 started asking you questions about that, but let me
17 What does a black flag mean to you? Will you
18 please explain to us whether it was all black, plain
19 black, or had some other indicators on it?
20 A. When I looked at it from the road, I couldn't
21 notice the details except that it was quite long and it
22 was black, but the checkerboard --
23 Q. Leave aside the checkerboard. I'm asking you
24 about the black flag. Did it have any signs on it
25 except being a piece of black cloth?
1 A. I couldn't notice that from the road.
2 Q. What was your association when you saw this
3 black flag? What did it mean to you in your mind?
4 A. First of all, I didn't even know what it
5 meant, but later, I learnt it was the Ustasha flag.
6 Q. So it is a Ustasha flag, according to you.
7 Do you know what a Ustasha flag looked like?
8 A. That's what I saw.
9 Q. I'm asking you, do you know what an Ustasha
10 flag looks like? Do you or do you not know? Answer
11 that question.
12 A. It had symbols, but I couldn't see that. I
13 could just see that it was black.
14 Q. My question is: Does a black flag mean an
15 Ustasha flag to you?
16 A. All I can say is what I saw.
17 Q. If you're talking about an Ustasha flag, I'm
18 asking you, can you tell us what an Ustasha flag looks
19 like? Do you know what it looks like or not? I think
20 the majority of people in this hall don't know what it
21 looks like.
22 A. I'm not old enough to know.
23 Q. But an Ustasha flag was never a black flag.
24 You said that Papic had a black uniform on.
25 What, in your mind, did that black uniform represent?
1 A. I think that the Ustashas wore black flags.
2 Q. Well, you see, they didn't. Was it all
3 Ustashas or just a separate unit of Ustashas?
4 A. I can't answer that. I don't know.
5 Q. Five years after the events, you made the
6 statement to the AID agency. How actually did you get
7 in touch with AID? Did they come to look for you or
8 did you yourself report or how was this contact
9 established? How did they learn about you five years
10 after the events? And you were questioned at a time
11 when a whole team of investigators of the International
12 Tribunal was there, so how come they didn't interview
13 you but, rather, the AID agency?
14 A. I don't know how they found me.
15 Q. Will you tell me how it went? Did they call
16 you or did you go yourself?
17 A. Could you repeat that question?
18 Q. Did you go to the AID office yourself or did
19 somebody come to fetch you?
20 A. They came home to my house, they knew I had
21 been there and that I had survived the genocide.
22 Q. Did they tell you how they learned about it?
23 A. I was registered with the Red Cross and then
24 they inquired where people had been.
25 Q. Where was this?
1 A. That was some time ago, but quite recently,
2 they came to my house. I can't remember the date
3 because my brain is not really working properly.
4 Q. But we are still fresh. This is only the
5 morning. What will happen in the afternoon?
6 A. Considering what I went through, even this is
7 a wonder.
8 Q. I am not asking you about that. I just want
9 to know what happened.
10 You said that in the month of October, the
11 inhabitants of Ahmici put up a barricade on the road
12 and would not allow HVO soldiers to pass. What can you
13 tell us about that? Why did they build a barricade?
14 Did they do this on their own initiative or did they
15 receive an order to erect this barricade?
16 A. I don't know on whose initiative it was
17 done. I just know that it was because when there was
18 that clash in Novi Travnik.
19 MR. RADOVIC: It's a slang word the witness
20 is using which we in Zagreb also use to mean "clash" or
22 A. They didn't allow them to pass. Then they
23 crossed to the hill of Hrasno and then they attacked
24 Ahmici. But this was a smaller-scale conflict.
25 Q. You said that at the time a Muslim young man
1 was killed. Do you know whether any Croats were killed
2 on that day?
3 A. No, I don't know, but I know that a
4 16-year-old Muslim was killed.
5 Q. You said that no one introduced you to Croats
6 and that you didn't have any particular contact with
8 A. I didn't.
9 Q. When you mentioned the name of Dragan Papic
10 in AID, did you yourself provide the name or did the
11 people from AID suggest it to you?
12 A. No, no. I knew him.
13 Q. How did you link the name to the person?
14 A. I don't understand what you're asking me.
15 Q. For instance, my name is Ranko Radovic. How
16 did you learn what my name was? Did somebody point me
17 to you or what?
18 A. When I first came, I was staying with Bilic
19 Hijadet, and Bilic's house and Papic's house are very
20 close, and this is how I learned that that was Papic's
22 Q. When you were in AID and interviewed about
23 Papic Dragan, were any photographs shown to you on the
24 basis of which you might be able to identify the person
25 that you considered to be Papic Dragan?
1 A. No, they didn't give me anything.
2 Q. So you just mentioned the name and they
3 didn't ask you to point to the person you considered to
4 be Papic Dragan on the basis of photographs?
5 A. But why should they when I knew him?
6 Q. I am just asking you whether you were shown
7 any photographs for identification purposes.
8 A. No, I wasn't.
9 Q. You were one of the more cautious people, and
10 you said that on the 15th of April, 1993 -- there's a
11 misprint here. It says '92. I suppose it should be
12 '93 -- that you reached the mosque and that you warned
13 them that you had seen Croats moving out. Another
14 friend told you that?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. You noticed something yourself and another
17 friend told you something. My question is: Which
18 people did you warn near the mosque?
19 A. People were walking around. I suppose we had
20 agreed that we should let each other know as soon as we
21 noticed anything.
22 Q. Roughly about what time of day was this on
23 the 15th of April when you told people about the
24 danger? I know that you weren't wearing a watch, but
25 roughly what time was it?
1 A. It was just before dark fell.
2 Q. Very well. You also said that the local
3 people didn't believe, didn't believe you. And how did
4 they explain this lack of belief in your warnings?
5 A. Before all these things had happened,
6 relations were good among them. They had nice
7 relations among the people, in between the period of
8 the first aggression and this one.
9 Q. I'm sorry, I can't understand anything you're
10 saying. You came to warn these people around the
11 mosque of danger signals?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you name any of the persons that you
14 talked to about what you had noticed and that there was
15 a danger sign? Will you please remember the surnames
17 A. Senko, I can't remember his surname, his
18 house is right next to the mosque, and Vehbija, I can't
19 remember his name. He was there too. His house is
20 also next to the mosque.
21 Q. So they made light of what you were saying to
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did they discuss what you had told them with
1 A. Perhaps. We stayed there talking for a while
2 and then each one went to his own home to see what he
3 should do.
4 Q. You said two things that were contradictory
5 yesterday, so let's clarify that. You said yesterday
6 that you didn't sleep all night, but you also said that
7 you were awakened by the first shot. When sleeping,
8 how could you be awakened?
9 A. I was lying down. I was dozing. I wasn't
10 sleeping properly.
11 Q. So you were half awake, so to speak. Half
12 awake, half asleep. Is that acceptable as a
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If you were neither awake nor asleep, how
16 then could you identify the position from which the
17 first shot came when it actually woke you up?
18 A. I heard the shot and I jumped up immediately
19 and I knew where it was coming from.
20 Q. By the sound, you identified it by the sound;
21 do you agree with me?
22 A. Yes, I'm just saying --
23 Q. You didn't see the bullet?
24 A. No, you can't see a bullet. How can you see
25 a bullet?
1 Q. So according to the sound?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell us, did you ever go to Grabovi?
4 A. I'm not a local inhabitant, so I don't really
5 know what you're referring to.
6 Q. It is the central part of the village?
7 A. I went through the woods, if that is what is
8 called Grabovi.
9 Q. Do you know who owns which house among the
10 Croats and Muslims in Grabovi?
11 A. I went there rarely, but I knew roughly who
12 were the Croats and who were the Muslims.
13 Q. By the roofs?
14 A. Not really.
15 Q. Well then, how did you know?
16 A. Well, the neighbours would say these are
17 Catholic homes and these are Muslim homes.
18 Q. Did they tell you the names, or did they just
19 tell you these were Catholic and these were Muslim?
20 A. Sometimes they would give me the names, but
21 that wasn't of any interest to me because I was a
23 Q. So you didn't intend to stay anyway, so that
24 didn't interest you.
25 Could you give us the name of any individual
1 Croat whose house you remember up there in the central
2 part of the village?
3 A. I know the house of the person who had a
4 shop. What was his name? Kupreskic, yes. We would go
5 to buy something there, the man who had the shop.
6 Q. Any other house?
7 A. There were several of their houses there
8 around the shop.
9 Q. Do you know the names of the owners of the
10 houses near the shop?
11 A. Vlatko, Zoran, and Mirjan. Those were those
12 houses there.
13 Q. So you remember them.
14 A. Yes, I remember it from the stories, from the
15 conversations that we had when we went to the shop.
16 Q. Can you tell us how far the Kupreskic house
17 is from the place where you were that morning; that is,
18 to be more precise, from the Bilic house as the crow
20 A. It's not far, but I'm not very good at
22 Q. If you went on foot, how many minutes would
23 it take you?
24 A. It's not far to go to the shop.
25 Q. It's not far, but it needs some time.
1 A. I didn't have a watch to measure, so I don't
2 know how to answer that question.
3 Q. Did you ever pass by those other houses apart
4 from the one in which the shop was?
5 A. I did sometimes go to Upper Ahmici, but I
6 moved around very little, very little.
7 Q. If you're going to Upper Ahmici, do you pass
8 by those houses? Are you sure of that?
9 A. Yes, that's how -- what I was told when I
10 passed by.
11 Q. Could you name the person in Upper Ahmici
12 that you went to visit when you went along that road?
13 A. I had a friend.
14 Q. What was his name?
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you,
17 Mr. Radovic. Again, the interpreters are asking
18 whether you could make a break, have a break between
19 questions and answers so that we can follow the
20 interpretation. Otherwise, the transcript will not be
21 accurate and we can't follow. Thank you.
22 MR. RADOVIC:
23 Q. Tell us the first and last name of the man
24 that you went to visit in upper Ahmici?
25 A. I went to visit (redacted).
1 Q. I'm asking you again, are you sure that when
2 you went to Upper Ahmici, you passed by the Kupreskic
4 A. When you're going up, you go a bit to the
5 left, and I was told that those were the Kupreskic
7 Q. Unfortunately, we don't have a map now for me
8 to show you so that you could show us, but we will show
9 the Trial Chamber the photograph or the map which will
10 show that you do not pass by the Kupreskic houses to go
11 to Upper Ahmici.
12 Tell us, (redacted) have a house in
13 Upper Ahmici? Was he living there?
14 A. He was staying with someone. I didn't ask
15 him whether that was his house or not. I just stopped
17 Q. When you went to Upper Ahmici, you went to
19 A. I suppose it was his house. I had a coffee
20 with him.
21 Q. So you went to a particular place to see
22 (redacted). What would you say if we told you that
23 (redacted) is not in Upper Ahmici?
24 A. He is. He's there.
25 Q. Well, let us say that is so. Tell me now, in
1 connection with the unit which was allegedly attacking,
2 what did you hear about it? Who among the Croats
3 attacked Ahmici?
4 A. I think it was the Croatian Defence Council,
5 the Croatian army.
6 Q. Yes, but when you were interviewed in AID,
7 you said something special. Do you know or don't you
8 know which unit was attacking?
9 A. HVO.
10 Q. Nothing more than that. All you know is that
11 it was the HVO?
12 A. Yes, some Jokers were participating too.
13 Q. And how do you know that they were
15 A. I heard it.
16 Q. From whom?
17 A. From the local people. That a unit from
18 Busovaca had come and some other people from
19 Herzegovina when there was the attack at Novi Travnik.
20 Q. Who did you hear that from?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel make a pause,
23 JUDGE CASSESE: You should slow down.
24 Otherwise, we can't follow.
25 MR. RADOVIC: Sorry.
1 Q. Could you please identify the person that you
2 heard this from?
3 A. I heard it from the local inhabitants. I
4 didn't take note of their names. The people were
5 talking about it, the locals.
6 Q. You don't know the locals by name, but you do
7 know the names of the Croats with whom you had no
9 A. But I was walking around.
10 Q. But surely you were walking around near the
11 Croats too, surely.
12 A. I was there in Ahmici that night.
13 Q. Then tell me the name of the local who told
14 you, who identified the unit that was attacking.
15 Because, you see, it's a bit strange to me, because in
16 your statement, you name the Croats with whom you did
17 not socialise and you can't name the locals with whom
18 you did socialise.
19 A. For instance, there was Senko there, and
20 there were others, Edzo, I heard this from them.
21 Q. When you were making the statement in AID,
22 were you shown anybody's photograph, the photograph of
23 any Croat for the purposes of identification?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. Does the name Mirjan mean anything to you?
1 A. Mirjan? He's Kupreskic.
2 Q. From whom did you hear his name?
3 A. I heard it when I came to the shop. They
4 referred to the Kupreskics, and that's all.
5 Q. What has Vlatko Kupreskic's shop have to do
6 with Mirjan?
7 A. I was told that Mirjan was living just
9 Q. Who told you?
10 A. Well, the peasants, the farmers, they know
11 their names.
12 Q. Can you recognise Mirjan in person?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Could you recognise Zoran?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever see them in your life?
17 A. I may have passed by them, but I didn't know
18 who they were.
19 Q. Do you know anything from personal experience
20 what they were doing on the 16th of April?
21 A. The 16th of April? I heard what I have
22 already told you about, who had participated in that
24 Q. I'm not interested in what you said, I'm
25 interested in what you saw and what you heard?
1 A. I didn't see anything. I didn't see.
2 Q. Do you know Sakib Ahmic?
3 A. I do, but not well.
4 Q. Did you ever see him on television?
5 A. I have no TV set, so I couldn't watch.
6 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. Thank you. That
7 ends my cross-examination.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Radovic.
9 Before -- yes?
10 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President --
11 JUDGE CASSESE: If you will allow me one
12 second. Before we move on to other legal counsel, may
13 I call upon all legal counsel, Defence counsel, to
14 refrain from any ironical comments or remarks. This is
15 not proper in court. We will no longer allow any
16 counsel of Prosecution to make such comments about
17 witnesses. This is quite unacceptable.
18 Yes, Mr. Terrier?
19 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much for these
20 words, Mr. President. I would like to ask for some
21 clarification as to the order in the proceedings.
22 Yesterday, when I was carrying out the
23 examination-in-chief of Mr. Rizvanovic, I limited
24 myself to three items in the written statements. They
25 were points which seemed very important to me. And I
1 didn't want to waste the Tribunal's time with other
2 elements that were of minor relevance.
3 I do not query the relevance of the questions
4 raised by the two Defence counsel, but I have the
5 feeling that many of the questions raised were outside
6 the scope of the questions I put yesterday during the
8 I also had the feeling that, especially
9 Mr. Radovic, put a lot of questions related to Dragan
10 Papic, although he's not Dragan Papic's counsel. I am
11 aware of Rule 90(H) of the Rules and I had the feelings
12 that the principle expressed in that rule is that the
13 cross-examination should remain within the scope of the
15 You pointed out in these last few days that
16 there are also exceptions indicated in the Rules, but
17 it is important for us, when we prepare and carry out
18 examination-in-chief, it is important for us to know
19 whether the witness is going to be questioned on all of
20 the elements to be found in written statements
21 disclosed to the Defence.
22 In this case, in this instance, I wonder
23 whether we should limit ourselves to those points which
24 are relevant to us. This is the very issue I wanted to
25 put to you. I was seeking some clarification from the
1 Court because I had some questions as to the way this
2 Rule was implemented.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: As far as I'm concerned, but
4 I'm going to discuss this with my colleagues, the
5 Defence is allowed to put questions related to the
6 credibility of the witness, and that is a wide scope.
7 MR. TERRIER: Quite.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: So they are entitled to check
9 whether the witness is credible so they're allowed to
10 go beyond the questions you raised.
11 MR. TERRIER: Yes. Many questions were put
12 as to the credibility of the witness. That's fine. I
13 have no objection to that. That's quite legitimate for
14 Defence counsel to do so. But I had the feeling,
15 especially listening to the questions raised by
16 Mr. Radovic, more so at the beginning of his
17 cross-examination, that many areas were broached which
18 were not areas that I had gone into in
19 examination-in-chief. I'm wondering whether that is
20 the rule, but I'm also wondering as to the scope of
21 implementation and the use the Court intends to make of
23 JUDGE CASSESE: I personally feel that when
24 there is a doubt, we must take the rights of the
25 Defence into account. So if there is any doubt, the
1 advantage should go to the Defence which would raise
2 relevant questions. But, of course, if you have the
3 feeling that a question is being raised which is of no
4 relevance because it goes beyond the scope of the
5 examination-in-chief to start with, and also beyond the
6 scope of credibility, then you are allowed to raise
7 objections. But I personally would be more inclined to
8 give the advantage to the Defence because they are
9 allowed to test the statements made by the witness, and
10 I think that can't be established just in abstract
12 My colleagues agree with me so much more so
13 that we could add as an argument, as a further
14 argument, that at this stage, the Court is not in a
15 position to assess the relevance of a question. There
16 may be questions put by the Defence for reasons that
17 we're not aware of. So it may be that the Defence
18 might want to raise questions which are relevant for
19 the Defence of their client.
20 However, in the future, if there are
21 objections raised by the Prosecution, we could see
22 whether there are any doubts as to the relevance of
23 questions raised by the Defence when the Court would be
24 entitled to ask the Defence why they think that the
25 question is relevant for them.
1 That's the method we could decide to have.
2 But in principle, we would be rather inclined to take
3 due account of the rights of the Defence.
4 MR. TERRIER: We shall indeed comply with
5 your views, but I had another question. Mr. Radovic
6 raised many questions related to Dragan Papic, although
7 he's not Dragan Papic's counsel. I didn't want to butt
8 in, but questions might be of relevance, questions he
9 asked, but it was not up to Mr. Radovic to put them.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Mr. Radovic?
11 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honour, the questioning
12 was performed by Mr. Papic -- the first
13 cross-examination was done by Mr. Papic's counsel. The
14 question of the black flag and the black uniform is not
15 just a question that refers to Mr. Papic but Ustasha
16 uniforms and Ustasha symbols do not refer only to
17 Papic. The issue of Ustasha insignia will turn up
18 quite often during the proceedings, and as I said, most
19 of the people involved in these proceedings do not know
20 what Ustasha uniforms and insignia looked like.
21 In Zagreb, we will get a book which shows
22 what these uniforms and insignia look like, but I
23 declare here that a black uniform was the uniform of a
24 special unit of the Ustasha army which was called the
25 Black Legion, and the Ustasha flag was never black, it
1 was red, white, and blue with a letter "U" and the
2 Croatian coat of arms. So one story is being told
3 here, but the reality is different, so I'm just trying
4 to show that people are talking about things which they
5 do not know anything about.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I see. I think you made
7 a good point. I think you're right in saying that this
8 question was indeed relevant to the credibility of the
9 witness and did not merely refer to Papic, to accused
10 Dragan Papic.
11 Yes, please.
12 JUDGE MAY: It may be that Mr. Moskowitz can
13 help as far as this is concerned because the common law
14 rule, at least in the United Kingdom, is that counsel
15 is not prevented from asking questions about another
16 co-defendant. Whether it's wise to ask questions
17 involving a co-defendant of course is another matter.
18 But I don't think there can be a rule which prevents
19 counsel as it were encroaching on another counsel's
20 case and on what may involve a co-defendant, and the
21 example which was just given is one which may be of
22 general relevance, although in this particular part of
23 the evidence, it related to one witness.
24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If I may respond, Your
1 I agree, in the American system, there is no
2 rule that would prohibit co-counsel from asking
3 questions, even if unwise questions, that would pertain
4 to a co-defendant. I think our concern here is having
5 six Defence attorneys in this case asking a witness the
6 same series of questions, perhaps from a slightly
7 different angle, regarding the same accused. It
8 appears to me that we would risk having essentially
9 ganging up on a witness on a particular issue.
10 I think the example that Mr. Radovic gave
11 about the black flag was a very legitimate line of
12 questioning. We don't doubt that. But I do recall him
13 asking a series of questions dealing only with whether
14 or not this -- how this witness new Papic, how this
15 witness could identify Papic. These questions, it
16 seems to me, are more appropriately given by the
17 counsel representing Papic and I think they were, and
18 then from a different angle, counsel number 2 does the
19 same thing and from a third angle counsel number 3 does
20 it again, and I think our concern, while we don't want
21 to unduly limit legitimate cross-examination, and I
22 think it is important for credibility of witnesses to
23 be adequately and thoroughly tested, there's no doubt
24 about that, but I think there comes a point or a line
25 beyond that that I think it becomes -- I won't say
1 witness harassment, but it just goes on too long and it
2 becomes unfair to some of these witnesses who have to
3 sit here for sometimes hours enduring it.
4 I am looking for some way, I think, to have a
5 legitimate balance between the witness's -- frankly,
6 the witness's rights not to be harangued by one Defence
7 attorney after another coming from different angles on
8 essentially the same topic and the legitimate rights of
9 the accused to have credibility tested. It seems to me
10 that that line might legitimately be drawn in this case
11 with making some sort of a rule that would limit
12 questions that solely pertained to a Defendant to the
13 lawyer representing that accused and, of course, there
14 would be some flexibility because sometimes that line
15 isn't so clear, as in the black flag example, but we do
16 request that the Court give some consideration to
17 establishing some limitation; otherwise, I fear that
18 we're going to have some problems with witnesses being
19 harassed and feeling that they're being harassed.
20 JUDGE MAY: The danger of a rule is that you
21 do injustice in the particular case, and I would have
22 thought, with respect, that the right answer is that
23 it's for the Court to determine in each case where the
24 line is drawn between legitimate cross-examination and
25 what becomes repetitive and oppressive to the witness,
1 and in each case, that will have to be judged.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Here I would take a different
3 approach from my colleague, but you see here, this
4 reflects the approach, the common law approach, and the
5 typical continental European approach where we like
6 principles, rules, and I think this also applies to
7 Croatia, former Yugoslavia, where we have different
8 legal training.
9 I wonder whether we could probably try to
10 think of a solution. We are here -- we are breaking
11 new ground, of course, again. We can't apply either
12 Croatian or British or Italian or French or Zambian law
13 or American law, we have to think of law, a set of
14 rules to be applied in the light of the basic
15 principles of our Statute, namely, the right of the
16 accused to a fair and expeditious trial.
17 So therefore, we probably could think of some
18 sort of broad guidelines and then, within those
19 guidelines, which we would try to offer maybe next
20 week, we could, on a case-by-case basis then decide if
21 and when objections are raised according to the
22 pragmatic approach suggested by Judge May. I wonder
23 whether we could combine those two approaches, a sort
24 of principled and pragmatic approach, but I agree with
25 the Prosecution, that this is a difficult area. We
1 will try to come to some sort of wise and balanced
2 solution which, of course, should never affect or
3 curtail the rights of the Defence.
4 May I suggest we now move on to our next
5 legal counsel, Mrs. Glumac?
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, thank
7 you. I have no further questions, not because of the
8 Prosecutor's remark, but because we have truly
9 exhausted all the questions I was going to ask.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any other
11 counsel? No other counsel is going to ask questions?
12 I wonder whether the Prosecutor would like to
13 re-examine the witness?
14 Re-examined by Mr. Terrier:
15 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, you were questioned a moment
16 ago as to your knowledge of the Ustashe. Could you
17 specify to the Court what this word "Ustashe" stands
18 for for you, what it means?
19 A. For me, these are criminals. That's what the
20 word means.
21 Q. Through whom or how did you get to hear about
22 the Ustashe?
23 A. I heard from the former war, the Second World
24 War, I read in books what they had done, how they had
25 done it, and so on.
1 Q. You were born in 1943, so you're too young to
2 have experienced that time. Did you hear about the
3 Ustashe through your parents?
4 A. I read history when I went to school.
5 Q. So when you saw this black flag flying from
6 Dragan Papic's house, you associated that flag with
7 what you knew about the Ustashe, didn't you?
8 A. Something like that.
9 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.
10 Thank you very much, Mr. President. My apologies,
11 Mr. President, two further questions, two additional
12 questions. I'm sorry.
13 Q. Mr. Radovic asked a question of
14 Mr. Rizvanovic, and in answer to it, you said that you
15 didn't meet with any representative of the Office of
16 the Prosecutor between yesterday's hearing and this
17 morning. I would like to clarify this. I don't know
18 whether the transcript or the translation that I
19 received was absolutely faithful. But I had the
20 feeling that you said "No," that you didn't meet
21 anybody in between. That's not right, is it, because
22 you did meet with somebody, didn't you?
23 A. Could you repeat the question?
24 Q. The question is as follows: This morning,
25 before the hearing began, did you meet with a
1 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor?
2 A. I don't know how to say that. When I was
3 coming here, you mean?
4 Q. Indeed, when you were coming here this
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, would you mind looking at the
8 photograph again? Could you once again, so as to avoid
9 any ambiguity or any problem, any further problems,
10 could you tell us in which house you were staying with
11 your family prior to the 16th of April, 1993? Could
12 you show it using the pointer?
13 A. Before the 16th of April?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. This is the cemetery, this is this house,
16 this is that house. I was in this house next to the
17 wood, on the left side. Here (indicating).
18 Q. So this is the house which stands closest to
19 the woods. Were there any other houses between yours
20 and the forest?
21 A. There was a house here, next to ours
23 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, he's not
24 speaking into the microphone.
25 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much,
1 Mr. Rizvanovic. I have no further questions. Thank
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, allow me one
4 question. Do you intend to ask the witness whether he
5 can identify any accused? I was thinking of Dragan
6 Papic because he spoke about Dragan Papic. It's up to
8 MR. TERRIER: Yes, we could ask this of the
9 witness. Of course, the Tribunal will be able to
10 ascertain to which extent -- the witness is full of
11 emotions and has problems in identifying people.
12 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, can you hear me? Do you know
13 where the accused are sitting in this courtroom?
14 It might be necessary to locate everything.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I'm aware. It might be
16 better not to put the question that way. Do not ask
17 where the accused are.
18 MR. TERRIER: No, I didn't specify, I asked
19 Mr. Rizvanovic whether he knew where the accused were.
20 I do want to make sure that there is no confusion.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: You could ask whether he
22 recognises anyone in this courtroom no matter where
23 that person may sit or stand.
24 MR. TERRIER:
25 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, do you recognise anybody in
1 this courtroom?
2 A. Yes. Yes, yes, I do.
3 Q. Could you name the person you recognise?
4 A. Dragan Papic.
5 Q. Would you mind pointing him to us?
6 A. I'm looking at him. Over there.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: That's not enough.
8 MR. TERRIER:
9 Q. Please, you said that you were looking at
10 him. But could you use your finger, point to him?
11 JUDGE CASSESE: And say where he's sitting or
13 A. He's sitting, he's sitting.
14 MR. TERRIER:
15 Q. And where is he sitting in the courtroom?
16 A. Next to the door.
17 Q. Would you be able to describe his physical
19 A. He has a beard, he had a beard before, and a
20 little moustache.
21 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.
22 Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: No questions from the Court.
24 I assume there's no objection to the witness being
25 released. I see no objection.
1 Mr. Rizvanovic, you may now be released.
2 (The witness withdrew)
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, we have another
4 15 minutes. We could possibly use them to let the next
5 witness in, or we're going to have a break now? What
6 do you suggest?
7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, our next
8 witness is listed as Witness No. 3 on page 6 of our
9 filing entitled "Prosecution Submission of Information
10 Helpful for Trial," dated August 19, and this is a
11 protected witness.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Number 3.
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: On page 6.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This is a protected witness
16 who has requested face protection, voice protection,
17 and pseudonym protection. We have discussed this
18 matter with the Defence counsel, and they do not oppose
19 this request. So at this time, we would request that
20 those protective measures be granted for this witness.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: And it would be Witness A?
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Witness A.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand from the
24 technicians they would prefer to ask to take a break
25 now. It would facilitate the taking of the necessary
1 measures for the protection of the witness.
2 So I suggest that we now break, and we come
3 back in 30 minutes. So a quarter past eleven sharp
4 with the witness in here. Thank you
5 --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.
7 (The witness entered court)
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could you
9 please stand and read the solemn declaration?
10 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone wasn't on.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Is it on now? Could you
12 please read it again?
13 THE INTERPRETER: But we can't hear him.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: The interpreters can't hear
16 Maybe, meanwhile, the Prosecutor could show
17 us his name on a slip of paper?
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour. I'll
19 tender this to the witness, to the usher.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel,
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. I'm now tendering a
23 slip of paper with the witness's name on it to the
24 usher for showing.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Does the microphone work
4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes. Yes, the
5 technician has come and fixed the --
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, Witness A. I would
7 like, again, to ask you to stand and read once again
8 the solemn declaration because we don't have it on our
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Moskowitz?
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 WITNESS A
16 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
17 Q. Good morning.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. I want to inform you again that you have been
20 granted the protective measures that you have
21 requested. I'll be asking you a series of questions,
22 and I would like to ask you that if a response to any
23 of my questions would, in any way, you feel, tend to
24 identify you in some way, please feel free to say that
25 before responding. Will you do that?
1 A. Yes, I will.
2 Q. Would you tell the Court how old you are,
4 A. Twenty-seven.
5 Q. Now, you and your family are not originally
6 from Ahmici; isn't that right?
7 A. No, we're not. We're from eastern Bosnia.
8 Q. When did you family settle in the village of
9 Ahmici? Could you tell us that date?
10 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was in
11 the month of November 1992.
12 Q. And your family, at that time, were refugees
13 from the Foca area?
14 A. Yes, my wife's family was from Foca, and my
15 family originated from a place which I can't tell you
16 the name of now.
17 Q. Could you just tell us briefly what was
18 happening in Foca that rendered your family refugees
19 from that area?
20 A. Well, after the houses of my family in
21 eastern Bosnia were burned down due to the Chetnik
22 Serbian aggression, my family was driven away and they
23 had to seek refuge in the area of Central Bosnia.
24 Q. Now, you've mentioned your family, and I
25 don't want you to mention any names, but can you give
1 us an idea of what your family consisted of at that
2 time, the relationships?
3 A. You mean where we lived in the village of
5 Q. I guess I'm asking you to give us an idea of
6 what your family consisted of at that time. Did it
7 consist of a father, a mother, a wife, and that kind of
9 A. Yes. I had a father, a mother, and three
10 brothers. I also had a wife and a child, and my wife
11 had her father, her mother, and two brothers.
12 Q. Now, was this the family you were referring
13 to, these group of people who settled in Ahmici as
14 refugees in or about November of 1992?
15 A. Yes. In November 1992, my mother and my two
16 younger brothers, who were twins, arrived, and in the
17 other house, my mother-in-law, my father-in-law and my
18 wife, with our small child, settled, and one of their
19 youngest sons; and in a house nearby, my wife's
20 brother, with his wife and child, settled.
21 Q. So your family settled basically in two
22 separate houses in the Ahmici area in '92; would that
23 be a fair statement?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Were these houses close together, or were
1 they in different parts of the village?
2 A. No, they were close to one another, some 40
3 metres away from each other.
4 Q. Now, at this time, where were you and what
5 were you doing?
6 A. I was in eastern Bosnia, in the area of
7 eastern Bosnia on the mountain of Grebak near eastern
8 Vojvodina. I was in the war theatre. I was a member
9 of the army.
10 Q. So you were fighting for the Bosnia army on
11 the Serbian front.
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Now, was there a time that you, I suppose
14 like many other soldiers, were given permission to go
15 and have some rest and relaxation or take some leave
16 from the front and visit the family? Did that occur
17 during this time period?
18 A. Yes. I was in the war theatre for a long
19 time. I hadn't been in Central Bosnia; I didn't know
20 where my family was. First, they were somewhere near
21 Sivrino Selo. When I arrived there, they had gone, and
22 I learned that they had moved to the hamlet of Ahmici,
23 and I found them there. That was in 1993, in February,
24 towards the end of February, because when I arrived
25 there, I found them there in the village of Ahmici.
1 Q. You mentioned the village of Sivrino Selo.
2 That's a small village right outside Vitez, between
3 Vitez and Ahmici on the valley road; is that right, if
4 you know?
5 A. Yes, I was in that village for the first time
6 then. I'd never been to Vitez. I came there for the
7 first time. I asked people where Sivrino Selo was;
8 they told me. And when I arrived there, they said that
9 my family had moved to the village of Ahmici.
10 Q. Do you recall about what time of year this
11 was or what year this was when you were granted leave
12 from the front to go and visit your family? Do you
13 remember when that was?
14 A. Well, it was in the month of February. It
15 was cold, there was snow. At least there was snow on
16 the front. It was cold, it was winter.
17 Q. Would this be in the year 1993?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, let's talk a little bit, if we could,
20 about the technicalities of leaving a war front in
21 Bosnia in 1992 or 1993 for a Bosnian soldier at that
23 I take it that while you were at the front,
24 you had a weapon that you were provided for use in
25 defending the Bosnia territories from the Serbs. Would
1 that be a good assumption, you did have a weapon?
2 A. Yes, that's correct. I had weapons, I had an
3 automatic gun which I had there, and I had to leave
4 there when I had -- when I went home. It was more
5 needed on the front-line. We were not allowed to take
6 our weapons with us.
7 Q. So when you left to go on home leave sometime
8 in February of '93, you had to leave your weapon behind
9 you at the front; is that what you're saying?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Was that normal practice in the army at that
12 time, for soldiers going home on leave to go home
13 without their weapons?
14 A. Yes, it was the usual practice, because the
15 army did not have enough weapons, so no one could take
16 their weapons with them. This was the period when the
17 army had more soldiers than weapons.
18 Q. At that time, was there any concern as well
19 that if soldiers took their weapons home with them,
20 they might be stopped at checkpoints along the way and
21 their weapons taken from them?
22 A. Yes. There were some cases. Some of my
23 fellow fighters from our unit had complained earlier
24 that at the checkpoints near Kiseljak, their weapons
25 had been taken away, pistols, guns, when they carried
1 them with them. Especially in January 1993, if they
2 went, there were allegedly some clashes in Central
3 Bosnia, and everybody said that weapons shouldn't be
4 carried and that it's very hard to pass through in a
6 Q. And when we talk about these checkpoints, was
7 it your -- what was your understanding as to who was
8 manning these checkpoints where weapons were being
9 removed from soldiers returning from the front?
10 A. The HVO police.
11 Q. Earlier you mentioned that your family had,
12 in fact, moved into two different houses. Close
13 together but, nevertheless, two different houses in
15 When you went to Ahmici and found your
16 family, which house did you stay at? Maybe you can
17 identify that by describing the family members you were
18 with, not by name but just by relationship.
19 A. I apologise. I forgot to tell you earlier
20 that there were actually three houses, not two, because
21 my wife's brother was in the third house, and I arrived
22 in a house which was owned by a certain Enver Ahmic,
23 and that house was inhabited by my wife with her child,
24 my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, and their son.
25 Q. And I take it your father and mother were in
1 a different house close by?
2 A. Yes, they were nearby in a house close to the
3 nearby woods. I don't know who the owner of the house
5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, Your Honour, I
6 would ask the usher to place on the ELMO an exhibit,
7 which I'm sure the Court is familiar with; it is the
8 blow-up of that part of the village of Ahmici. I guess
9 my concern a little bit is whether this will compromise
10 his protection and seek the guidance of the Court as to
11 best to do this without compromising protective
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you going to ask the
14 witness to identify his house?
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: It will be necessary for me
16 to have him identify several houses.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. But since the
18 transcripts are confidential.
19 (DISCUSSION WITH REGISTRAR OFF THE RECORD)
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. The registrar has
21 suggested that we should go into a closed session for a
22 few minutes so that the public gallery will not see
23 anything, not even this photograph.
24 (Closed session)
13 Pages 531 to 632 redacted - in closed session
17 Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
18 5.07 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
19 the 21st day of August, 1998, at
20 9.00 a.m.