1. 1 Thursday, 17th September 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered the court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 8.35 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the

    6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic,

    8 Vladimir Santic, also known as "Vlado."

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

    10 Mr. Terrier?

    11 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Mr. President.

    12 Good morning, Your Honours. First of all, pursuant to

    13 what we said yesterday, we would, indeed, request that

    14 we be able to discuss this important issue tomorrow,

    15 the issue that was raised yesterday.

    16 This morning we have a witness. The first

    17 witness will be testifying in closed session with a

    18 pseudonym, if the Defence has no objection to that.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier.

    20 Although the issue of law is very important, I think it

    21 is best that we decide tomorrow whether we should

    22 finish our discussion on that issue or whether we

    23 should finish first with the testimony of the

    24 witnesses, because it would not be appropriate not to

    25 finish with the testimony of the second witness. Let's

  2. 1 make that subordinate to the termination of the

    2 testimony of the second witness. Otherwise, the

    3 witness will be required to remain here during the

    4 weekend.

    5 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, I do not believe

    6 we will have any problems finishing, perhaps, even this

    7 morning.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Very well.

    9 (Closed session)

    10 (The witness entered court)

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    10 JUDGE CASSESE: We should probably take a

    11 break now of 20 minutes. All right, 20 minutes.

    12 --- Recess taken at 10.05 a.m.

    13 --- On resuming at 10.35 a.m.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: So I see this is a protected

    15 witness?

    16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Mr. President. This

    17 would be Witness L.

    18 (The witness entered court)

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Would you

    20 please read the solemn declaration?

    21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    22 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    23 truth.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    25 seated.

  2. 1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, I have handed

    2 a piece of paper to the witness for him to view.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 176.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, Mr. Moskowitz.

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    7 understand we are in closed session now. I do not feel

    8 that it is necessary to be in closed session at this

    9 point, and that if we do come to a point in the

    10 examination where that would be necessary, I would

    11 request the Court at that time to go into closed

    12 session.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    14 (Open session)

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: We are in open session.

    16 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

    17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    18 Q. Good morning, witness, how are you today?

    19 A. All right.

    20 Q. I want to inform you that you have been

    21 granted the protective measures that you have

    22 requested, and that you will be referred to as Witness

    23 L, and that your face is to be blocked so it cannot be

    24 viewed outside this courtroom. And so you may feel

    25 comfortable in providing testimony to the Tribunal

  3. 1 today. Do you understand that?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. If there comes a point in the examination

    4 where you are required to testify to anything that

    5 might identify you, then we will ask the Tribunal to go

    6 into closed session, which would mean that your voice

    7 would not leave this courtroom, so that you could then

    8 feel free to continue that part of your testimony. Is

    9 that clear to you and do you understand that?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. To begin, could you tell us how old you are?

    12 A. I was born in 1949.

    13 Q. Now, could you tell us whether you have lived

    14 in Ahmici, and if so, what year you arrived in the

    15 village of Ahmici?

    16 A. Yes. In '74, in '74.

    17 Q. And did you live in Ahmici from 1974 until

    18 April 1993?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. During that period of time did you live in

    21 the same house or did you move from house to house?

    22 A. In the same house.

    23 Q. What part of the village of Ahmici did you

    24 live?

    25 A. In Sadni Grabovi.

  4. 1 Q. And could you tell us who some of your Muslim

    2 neighbours were in that neighbourhood?

    3 A. Sakib Ahmic, Meho, Redzib Ahmic, Suad Zuda,

    4 Vehbija, et cetera.

    5 Q. Did you have any neighbours who were Bosnian

    6 Croatian?

    7 A. I did.

    8 Q. Who were some of your close Croat

    9 neighbours?

    10 A. Vlatko Kupreskic, closest neighbour.

    11 Q. And before we proceed, could you tell us

    12 where you live now?

    13 A. Now I live in Ahmici again.

    14 Q. When did you move back to Ahmici?

    15 A. Three months ago.

    16 Q. And where in Ahmici did you move back to?

    17 A. To a summer house, a summer kitchen.

    18 Q. And is this summer kitchen near your former

    19 house?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Could you describe how close the summer

    22 kitchen is to your former house?

    23 A. Five metres away.

    24 Q. So would it be true to say that the

    25 neighbours you had in 1993 are the neighbours you have

  5. 1 now?

    2 Let me rephrase that question. The Croatian

    3 neighbours you had in 1993 are the Croatian neighbours

    4 you have now?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Now, before the incident and the attack in

    7 1993, could you describe the kind of relations that you

    8 had with your Croatian neighbours, including Vlatko?

    9 A. Good.

    10 Q. Could you give us some examples of the kinds

    11 of relations that you had with, for example, the

    12 Kupreskic family in the years before the attack

    13 in '93?

    14 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter

    15 didn't catch the answer.


    17 Q. Would you repeat your answer, Witness L, so

    18 that the interpreter can hear it?

    19 A. Ivica Kupreskic and Gordana were the best man

    20 and maid of honour at my wedding, so we have good

    21 relations.

    22 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to April

    23 15, 1993. That would be the day before the attack. Do

    24 you remember what you were doing during that day and

    25 where you were?

  6. 1 A. I was at Zume.

    2 Q. And where is Zume?

    3 A. Zume is further away from Santici. There is

    4 a path there. I mean, it all belongs to Ahmici.

    5 Q. What were you doing in Zume on April 15,

    6 1993?

    7 A. I was digging a septic tank, so I was

    8 digging, working.

    9 Q. And were you doing that most of the day that

    10 day?

    11 A. I had been working for two days and that was

    12 the third day.

    13 Q. And on that day, after you were finished for

    14 that day, that is April 15, did you return home?

    15 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

    16 Q. Can you give us an idea about when that was

    17 when you returned home that day?

    18 A. It was around 5.00 or 6.00 approximately.

    19 Q. Was the sun still up or had the sun set at

    20 the time that you left to go home?

    21 A. No, no, it was pretty dark. No.

    22 Q. Now, there is a blow-up map behind you. If

    23 you could, without standing up, turn around in your

    24 seat, if you can, and take a look at that map behind

    25 you and see if you can recognise what that shows.

  7. 1 A. This is Vlatko Kupreskic's warehouse. This

    2 is my house.

    3 Q. Let me see if I can orient you a little bit.

    4 Do you see where you were working on April 15, 1993 in

    5 Zume?

    6 A. Somewhere around here.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: I see that some Defence

    8 counsel can't see the picture, so I wonder whether

    9 I could ask the usher to move it a little bit so they

    10 can see the whole picture.

    11 A. Over here, here. Here.


    13 Q. And I know this may be difficult for you, not

    14 being used to looking at these aerial photographs. And

    15 if it's hard for you, please say so. Is it possible

    16 for you to show us on that aerial photograph, if you

    17 can, the route you took as you walked home that night

    18 on April 15. And if you can't, just simply say so.

    19 A. There is a small path that goes the other way

    20 around the stadium from here. There is a stadium and a

    21 meadow, and Stipan's house which is next to Vlatko's

    22 house. That is the shortest road to Zume.

    23 Q. I notice, as a landmark, you're pointing to a

    24 white area on the map which is located towards the

    25 right-hand side of that map, for purposes of the

  8. 1 record.

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Do you see another large white area on the

    4 map, located more towards the middle of the map?

    5 A. This.

    6 Q. You can use your pointer, yes. Does that

    7 help you orient yourself in any way on this map?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. What is that white area that you've pointed

    10 to in the middle of the map?

    11 A. The cross-roads.

    12 Q. And do you know who lived in that area?

    13 A. Mostly Muslims lived there. Croats were on

    14 the other side.

    15 Q. And was your house located in that general

    16 area?

    17 A. My house is here.

    18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time I would ask the

    19 usher to show the next exhibit.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 177.

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: And perhaps at this time,

    22 Mr. President, it would be appropriate to go into

    23 closed session because of the house identification.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in closed session.

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    5 (Open session)

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    7 Q. Could you look at that photograph, which is

    8 marked Exhibit 33, and see if you can recognise that?

    9 A. Yes. That's the big warehouse.

    10 Q. Is that the warehouse that you walked in

    11 front of on April 15, 1993?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Now, if you could use your pointer that's in

    14 front of you, take that in your hand, and point to the

    15 picture on the table, rather than the picture on the TV

    16 screen, and show us where Vlatko Kupreskic was as you

    17 walked past on that evening.

    18 A. There was a bench here, and they were sitting

    19 there (indicating). The big door was there. This

    20 little house was not there then.

    21 Q. Witness L, it would be very helpful to the

    22 Tribunal if you could actually point to the picture on

    23 the table next to you, rather than to the TV screen?

    24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Perhaps the usher can

    25 assist.

  16. 1 A. This was where the bench was (indicating).

    2 Q. If you could take a green marker, again, I

    3 would ask the usher to assist, and place a circle, a

    4 red marker would be fine, and place a circle where you

    5 recall seeing Vlatko Kupreskic when you passed by on

    6 April 15th.

    7 A. (Marks)

    8 Q. Witness L, where were you when you saw Vlatko

    9 Kupreskic, if you could show us in that photograph,

    10 again, using your pointer?

    11 A. I passed by on my way home.

    12 Q. Does that photograph show an area where you

    13 were standing or walking as you saw Vlatko Kupreskic?

    14 A. Just right by that warehouse.

    15 Q. Could you use your pointer to show us where

    16 you were in that photograph?

    17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Again, if the usher could

    18 assist.

    19 A. (Indicating). There, up towards Upper

    20 Ahmici, Gornji Ahmici.

    21 Q. For the purposes of the record, then, you're

    22 pointing to that paved area in front of the shop; would

    23 that be accurate?

    24 A. Yes. That's where the road to Ahmici leads,

    25 up, and there was a parking lot there.

  17. 1 Q. Now, you said that there were some men also

    2 in the area. Where were they when you passed by the

    3 shop?

    4 A. They were inside, inside in the warehouse.

    5 The doors were always open.

    6 Q. Now, next to this warehouse, there seems to

    7 be a newer or another structure attached to that. This

    8 would be on the extreme right of the picture. Do you

    9 know what that is?

    10 A. Yes. It's bigger now. It was made after,

    11 during the war.

    12 Q. Is this, then, an extension or an addition to

    13 the original shop that was --

    14 A. Yes, that's right. Yes, yes, it's an

    15 extension along with the shop.

    16 Q. Was that extension there in 1993 when you

    17 walked past the shop that day?

    18 A. No, no. No, it wasn't.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I would also, at this time,

    20 ask that the witness be shown previously admitted

    21 Prosecution Exhibit 32.

    22 A. That's Vlatko's house, the new one.

    23 Q. Now, you said earlier that you saw some

    24 soldiers in Vlatko's house. Could you, again, use your

    25 pointer and, with the assistance of the usher,

  18. 1 demonstrate to us where in or around Vlatko's house you

    2 saw those soldiers.

    3 A. Up on the first balcony. Here, on the

    4 balcony, the first balcony (indicating).

    5 Q. That would be the lower balcony?

    6 A. Yes, here (indicating).

    7 Q. Thank you. Did you then proceed on home that

    8 evening, on April 15th, to your house?

    9 A. Yes, I did.

    10 Q. What did you do that night?

    11 A. I went home and went to bed until 12.00 and

    12 had my guard shift afterwards until 2.00.

    13 Q. What do you mean by "my guard shift"?

    14 A. They were village guards patrolling the

    15 village, village watches.

    16 Q. Did you, in fact, assist in patrolling the

    17 village that evening?

    18 A. Yes, I did, from 12.00 to 2.00.

    19 Q. Did you have any arms with you or weapons?

    20 A. Yes. I had my own pistol.

    21 Q. Were you alone or did you have a partner?

    22 A. A refugee was with me.

    23 Q. Was he armed or was he unarmed?

    24 A. No. They were civilians. No. In fact, we

    25 were all civilians.

  19. 1 Q. Did you tell anyone what you had seen earlier

    2 that evening, the soldiers in Vlatko's house?

    3 A. I told Ivo Berberica that there was a sort of

    4 army, but that wasn't my affair. That was a

    5 commander.

    6 Q. What response did you get from the person

    7 that you informed? Do you remember?

    8 A. Well, he said that it wasn't my affair and

    9 that there was the command and that it was their

    10 affair.

    11 Q. Did you see anything unusual during the two

    12 hours that you were walking around the village on the

    13 evening of the 15th and the morning of the 16th?

    14 A. We didn't see anything strange. We didn't

    15 think there was any danger.

    16 Q. Could you tell us what you recall now on the

    17 morning of April 16, 1993? If you need to refer to any

    18 names of family members -- let me put it this way. You

    19 do not need to refer to any names of family members.

    20 Do you understand?

    21 A. Yes, yes, I do. The road went to Sukrija

    22 Ahmic's. There was a detonation, gunfire, and they

    23 said that a bomb would be thrown, to leave the house.

    24 Then Sukrija was killed first.

    25 Q. Did you see that?

  20. 1 A. I didn't see that. A neighbour of mine, a

    2 woman, saw it. We went out of the window, not the

    3 door.

    4 Q. And that is out of the window of your house?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. In which direction did you run or go?

    7 A. Towards Upper Ahmici.

    8 Q. Did something happen to you as you ran

    9 towards Upper Ahmici from your house?

    10 A. I was wounded in my left arm by Suheta's

    11 (phoen) house.

    12 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't catch that last part of

    13 the testimony. You were wounded in your left arm.

    14 Then what did you say?

    15 A. Yes. A neighbour bandaged it up for me, a

    16 woman, and we continued on our way.

    17 Q. Were you separated from the rest of your

    18 family during this time?

    19 A. Yes, I was. They were in Nermin's house.

    20 Q. Where did you go after you were injured?

    21 Where did you run to?

    22 A. To the village of Vrhovine.

    23 Q. Did you become reunited with your family at

    24 some point?

    25 A. Yes, at Vrhovine in the morning.

  21. 1 Q. Were they okay? Were they all right?

    2 A. Yes, they were.

    3 Q. Do you know what happened to your house?

    4 A. It was burnt down, as well as Mina Sukrija's,

    5 Redzep's, and Sesko's. I saw that straight away.

    6 Q. When did you see those houses burning?

    7 A. When I went up the hill, they started to

    8 burn.

    9 Q. When you say "they started to burn," who do

    10 you mean by "they"?

    11 A. The Croats.

    12 Q. Were you able to recognise any of those

    13 Croats on the day of the 16th?

    14 A. No. No, I didn't.

    15 Q. Were you able to tell where the firing was

    16 coming from that injured you?

    17 A. From below Adem Ahmic's house on the

    18 left-hand side, and Redzib Ahmic, whichever you prefer

    19 to call it.

    20 Q. After you became reunited with your family,

    21 where did you then go?

    22 A. I went to Zenica.

    23 Q. Did you receive treatment for your injuries

    24 in Zenica?

    25 A. Yes. I had an x-ray. I was given

  22. 1 injections. I was given some tablets in the hospital

    2 on three occasions, and then I had to do some exercises

    3 in Zenica, rehabilitation.

    4 Q. Now, we've talked briefly about Vlatko

    5 Kupreskic and your seeing him in front of the shop that

    6 day on the 15th. How long had you known Vlatko

    7 Kupreskic before that day?

    8 A. Since 1974.

    9 Q. Since you moved into Ahmici?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. How often had you seen Vlatko Kupreskic

    12 during that period of time, from '74 to '93?

    13 A. Every day, every single day. I always used

    14 to pass by there. Just when we were at work we didn't

    15 see each other.

    16 Q. Did you and Vlatko have good relations?

    17 A. Yes, yes. With all the Croats we had good

    18 relations.

    19 Q. Now, in 1974, I take it Vlatko was still a

    20 fairly young person?

    21 A. Yes. He went to third and fourth class at

    22 school.

    23 Q. How did you know that?

    24 A. Because I was there.

    25 Q. You were there? What do you mean?

  23. 1 A. Well, my house is close by. I knew the

    2 family, Branka, Vlatko, and Jadranka, all of them.

    3 Branka, I think, is the oldest, the daughter. He is

    4 an only son.

    5 Q. Were you aware that Vlatko Kupreskic had an

    6 operation when he was a child, on his heart?

    7 A. Yes. He went to the military medical academy

    8 in Belgrade.

    9 Q. During the period of time that you saw him,

    10 almost on a daily basis since he was a child, did you

    11 notice whether or not he had any physical problems

    12 resulting from either that operation or any other

    13 medical problem?

    14 A. No. While he went to school, he didn't have

    15 any health problems. He was healthy after the

    16 operation, just like other children.

    17 Q. As he grew up to be a young man, did you

    18 notice whether he had any physical problems at that

    19 time?

    20 A. No, he didn't. He went to the economic

    21 school, school of economics.

    22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I have a moment,

    23 Mr. President?

    24 I have no more questions, Mr. President.

    25 Thank you.

  24. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Moskowitz.

    2 Counsel Pavkovic, the usual question.

    3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, if you intend

    4 to make a pause now, I would like to ask you to do so,

    5 actually, so that Defence counsel can discuss the

    6 matter of cross-examination.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Actually, we intended to take

    8 a break at 12.00, but I understand that it's better for

    9 you to break now for 20 minutes? Is that sufficient,

    10 20 minutes? All right, 20 minutes.

    11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you.

    12 --- Recess taken at 11.20 a.m.

    13 --- On resuming at 11:42 a.m.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz.

    15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Mr. President, thank

    16 you. I neglected to tender enter into evidence the two

    17 exhibits, Exhibit 176, which we request to be under

    18 seal, and then 177. Thank you.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes. Counsel

    20 Pavkovic?

    21 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I can inform

    22 you that the witness will be questioned by counsel

    23 Borislav Krajina. Thank you.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    25 (The witness entered court)

  25. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina.

    2 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajina:

    3 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you, Your Honours. I'll

    4 try and use up as little time as possible.

    5 Q. Witness L, would you please tell me whether

    6 you see in this courtroom Vlatko Kupreskic?

    7 A. Yes, I do.

    8 Q. Where is he sitting?

    9 A. On the right. He has a tie, and is sitting

    10 on the right.

    11 Q. Thank you. You talked today about the health

    12 of Vlatko Kupreskic?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. I'd like to ask you whether you had any

    15 health problems in your life so far?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Were you ever treated anywhere?

    18 A. No, I wasn't.

    19 Q. In no medical institution?

    20 A. In 1991 I had a car -- I had an accident and

    21 I was in hospital for 15 days.

    22 Q. What kind of accident?

    23 A. Turbe. The accident was in Turbe.

    24 Q. What kind of injuries did you have?

    25 A. I had injuries on my left leg.

  26. 1 Q. Did you have any other injuries?

    2 A. No, I was just wounded.

    3 Q. But not on that occasion?

    4 A. No. No other injuries on that occasion.

    5 Q. I asked you that because I heard that you had

    6 some health problems of a different nature.

    7 A. Well, I was hot when I had a bath and I was a

    8 little ill but it was nothing dangerous.

    9 Q. Where did you have a bath? Where were you --

    10 did you go for treatment anywhere?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. You didn't go to the doctor?

    13 A. No. Well, I went to Vitez. It was a lady

    14 doctor.

    15 Q. Yes. And what did she prescribe?

    16 A. She didn't prescribe anything. She just said

    17 that I should relax my legs a little bit and that there

    18 was no danger.

    19 Q. How long did you spend with this --

    20 A. No, I just went that one day. I went back

    21 home, and I went back to work afterwards.

    22 Q. And you didn't go to a doctor after that ever

    23 again?

    24 A. No, never again.

    25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, what day

  27. 1 it was and what time it was on the day that you passed

    2 through by the shop of Vlatko Kupreskic and when you

    3 saw him there as you described to us today?

    4 A. It was about 5.00 or 6.00.

    5 Q. What day was it?

    6 A. I don't know what day it was exactly.

    7 Q. You don't know the day. Very well. What was

    8 the weather like?

    9 A. Well, it was nice.

    10 Q. Nice weather, you say. Was visibility good?

    11 A. Yes, it was. You could see a little bit. It

    12 was dusk. It was April, you know, and days are short

    13 in April.

    14 Q. Very well. Could you please tell us whether

    15 you made statements earlier on that it was around 4.00

    16 p.m. in the afternoon, that you once said that it was

    17 4.00 p.m., and on another occasion you said that it was

    18 7.00 p.m. Just let me finish my question, please, and

    19 you can give us your answer. And today you state that

    20 it was about 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon.

    21 I'm just asking you whether you said, earlier

    22 on, that it was 4.00 p.m. on one occasion and another

    23 occasion that you said it was 7.00 p.m.

    24 A. Well, I said it was getting dark. I don't

    25 know what the exact time was, and it's not essential

  28. 1 whether it was 4.00 or 5.00.

    2 Q. Well, you leave that up to us to decide

    3 whether it's essential or not. I'm just asking you

    4 whether you said on two occasions once that it was at

    5 4.00 p.m. and one that it was 7.00 p.m. You just tell

    6 me yes or no.

    7 A. Yes, I did say that.

    8 Q. You did say that.

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Very well. Thank you. I don't know whether

    11 this is a difficult question for you, but I would like

    12 to ask you whether you know what the time is now.

    13 A. It's quarter to twelve. It's noon.

    14 Q. Noon, you say?

    15 A. Yes, noon.

    16 Q. Well, thank you. The next thing I want you

    17 to tell us who sat with Vlatko Kupreskic at the moment

    18 you appeared from work and saw him in front of the

    19 shop?

    20 A. Vlatko Kupreskic, Ivica, and Emir Vidovic.

    21 Q. Thank you. We can see that in the transcript

    22 it does not say that the witness said that Mirko

    23 Vidovic was there. It says "Emir". It was Mirko

    24 Vidovic, for the transcript. Mirko Vidovic. Thank

    25 you.

  29. 1 Would you clarify the situation a little bit

    2 and tell us where those individuals were, the

    3 individuals that you mentioned were with Vlatko sitting

    4 in front of the shop?

    5 A. Well, in the hall.

    6 Q. What did you say?

    7 A. In front of the hall.

    8 Q. Were they all in front of the hall?

    9 A. No. Some were inside, but I don't know who

    10 these were.

    11 Q. Who was inside, who was outside?

    12 A. I don't know who was inside, but three people

    13 were outside and two people that I didn't know. There

    14 were five of them outside. Two of them I didn't know.

    15 There were five outside, two were unknown to me. The

    16 three are -- I knew, and inside --

    17 Q. How many people were inside?

    18 A. About ten. There were about ten people

    19 inside.

    20 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us how you managed

    21 to count them?

    22 A. Well, that is why I said approximately.

    23 Approximately.

    24 Q. Well, were they in the hall? Did you go into

    25 the hall?

  30. 1 A. Well, you can see from outside. There is a

    2 big door which is always open.

    3 Q. What were they doing inside?

    4 A. They were talking. They were discussing

    5 something. They were drinking something, talking

    6 generally.

    7 Q. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Would you

    8 please tell us whether, in your previous statements,

    9 the statements that you made earlier on, did you state

    10 that everything that happened in front of the shop that

    11 you saw this in front of Vlatko's house? Did you say

    12 in front of house?

    13 A. No, in front of Vlatko's shop.

    14 Q. I'm asking you, in your previous statements

    15 did you state that all this happened in front of his

    16 house?

    17 A. No, I didn't, no.

    18 Q. No, you didn't. Thank you.

    19 Will you tell us once again, clearly, whether

    20 you drank beer with those individuals and with Vlatko

    21 in front of the shop?

    22 A. No. In Zume I had three cognacs where I

    23 worked.

    24 Q. When did you drink cognac?

    25 A. On my way home.

  31. 1 Q. Three cognacs. How big were those cognacs?

    2 A. Well, you know the small glasses. Well,

    3 three small glasses of cognac.

    4 Q. Do you usually drink alcohol?

    5 A. Well, sometimes. Sometimes.

    6 Q. Were you ever a drunk?

    7 A. Well, when I was a young man, yes.

    8 Q. When was that when you were younger?

    9 A. Well, when I was 25, 30. And I don't mind a

    10 drop or two even now.

    11 Q. Well, that's all right then.

    12 Could you tell us whether, in your previous

    13 statements, you stated that in front of Vlatko

    14 Kupreskic's house you drank with him and with the

    15 individuals who were in front of the house, whether you

    16 drank beer?

    17 A. No, I did not.

    18 Q. Thank you. Well, I just have a little bit

    19 longer. I don't want to tire you too much.

    20 You said today that you saw, on the

    21 balcony --

    22 A. Yes, that's right.

    23 Q. -- on the first floor--

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. -- of Vlatko Kupreskic's house, on the

  32. 1 occasion when you were going home from work --

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. -- about 30 individuals --

    4 A. Yes, yes.

    5 Q. -- on the balcony?

    6 A. Yes, on the balcony.

    7 Q. What did these people look like?

    8 A. Well, they had black and white uniform,

    9 military uniform.

    10 Q. Black?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. How did you notice that it was a summer

    13 uniform?

    14 A. Well, there are summer uniforms and winter

    15 uniforms.

    16 Q. What do winter uniforms look like?

    17 A. They're thicker.

    18 Q. Well, thicker. You saw this from the road?

    19 A. Well, the road is not very far from his

    20 house, you know.

    21 Q. Well, can you differentiate whether somebody

    22 is wearing a thicker uniform or a lighter uniform?

    23 A. Yes, you can quite clearly. Yes, you can.

    24 Q. You can? Very well then.

    25 I apologise for having to ask you the

  33. 1 following question, but could you please tell me,

    2 looking round the courtroom here, how many people there

    3 are? Just look around you.

    4 A. Well, about 25 to 30 I would say.

    5 Q. Twenty-five to thirty. Thank you.

    6 Your Honours, I would like to tender in

    7 evidence the statement of this witness of the 2nd of

    8 February, 1995; and the written notes of the Prosecutor

    9 on his talks with this witness, dated the 4th of

    10 August, 1998.

    11 Thank you. I have no further questions.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: No objections?

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We have no objection.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection from the

    15 Prosecution. It is admitted into evidence.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D/13.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Puliselic?

    18 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I would like

    19 to make an objection in the sense that this statement

    20 be taken into account in the part in which it refers to

    21 Vlatko Kupreskic because, otherwise, it makes mention

    22 of other things.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Is there any objection from

    24 the Prosecution?

    25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think the Prosecution feels

  34. 1 that if the statement is going to be admitted, it

    2 should be admitted into its entirety, otherwise --

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: But on the other hand -- it

    4 is true, but Counsel Puliselic is stating that there is

    5 one part of that statement relating to the accused

    6 Dragan Papic, and if it is admitted into evidence --

    7 and there was no examination-in-chief on that

    8 particular part. I think it's quite sensible to admit

    9 this document into evidence, except for the part

    10 relating to -- only for the part relating to Vlatko

    11 Kupreskic.

    12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: And I think we feel the Court

    13 is fully capable of making those distinctions.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we will not

    15 take into account any part which does not relate -- any

    16 part which relates to people other than Vlatko

    17 Kupreskic. So your request, Counsel Puliselic, has been upheld.

    18 Thank you.

    19 Any re-examination?

    20 MR. MOSKOWITZ: No, Your Honour.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So there is no

    22 objection to the witness being released?

    23 Witness L, thank you for giving evidence in

    24 court. You may now be released.

    25 (The witness withdrew)

  35. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Now, I see that we are short

    2 of witnesses, and the -- not even for tomorrow. So can

    3 we think of, in future, of having a list of witnesses

    4 plus, say, one or two reserve witnesses as it were, so

    5 that we don't run out of witnesses?

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think that is a very good

    7 suggestion. And we try to do that, and sometimes times

    8 we simply do not anticipate accurately how quickly

    9 things can move, and perhaps this is a good sign for

    10 the future.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you.

    12 Now, before we adjourn, let me discuss one or

    13 two points with you -- raise one or two points.

    14 First of all, we have -- now, we are doing

    15 some planning, and we understand that it is most likely

    16 that the Prosecution will close their case by the 16th

    17 of October. Probably even earlier, as we hope.

    18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We anticipate so.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. In any case, not after

    20 the 16th of October. Now, you may remember that we

    21 have now a new Rule, Rule 73 ter, on pre-Defence

    22 conference, stating that prior to the commencement by

    23 the Defence of its case, the Trial Chamber may hold a

    24 conference, and we intend to hold that conference, this

    25 pre-Defence conference, and that conference, the Trial

  36. 1 Chamber may order that the Defence file the following,

    2 and there are various things, submissions by the

    3 parties of matters which are not in dispute, statement

    4 of contested matters, effect and law, and list of

    5 witnesses.

    6 So we intend to hold this conference the very

    7 same day when the Prosecution finish their case, but we

    8 would be very happy if that, say, on the 15th or 16th

    9 of October, if at that stage you could already come

    10 with a list of witnesses, so that -- and then at that

    11 stage we would have a rough idea of how many days,

    12 working days, you need, and then later on you will

    13 provide, within the time limit we will establish, the

    14 summary of the facts.

    15 We have already a list of witnesses for

    16 Vlatko Kupreskic, 20, I think.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Ten.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Oh, wonderful. Even better.

    19 Ten.

    20 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, perhaps we did

    21 not understand each other. We gave this number of

    22 witnesses. They are, for the most part, Muslims, which

    23 we considered at the time there was the fear that

    24 contacting them -- that doesn't mean that -- we do have

    25 more witnesses in addition to those that we already

  37. 1 mentioned, because those are only the ones that we

    2 considered ought to be protected in some way.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: But I was corrected by my

    4 colleagues, there's a list of ten witnesses. I was

    5 wrong in saying 20. Ten, plus probably other

    6 witnesses. Counsel Pavkovic?

    7 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, it seems, by

    8 the reactions of my colleagues, that we could not

    9 comply with that request first, because by the 16th we

    10 shall be still here. We shall be here.

    11 Second, we're going to call the witnesses for

    12 which we consider that they should be called after the

    13 Prosecutor completes his part of the business, and

    14 we'll probably give up calling some witnesses if we

    15 consider them -- that it would be superfluous to bring

    16 them here, and we if don't wish to go against the

    17 Prosecution's assertions.

    18 After we complete this part of the hearing,

    19 we will have to go and see who we're going to bring,

    20 which witnesses we're going to bring. Our list will

    21 necessarily, therefore, have to be revised, and for

    22 that reason, objectively speaking, we're not going to

    23 be able to comply with this request if it were posed in

    24 such a way. So we're going to ask to be given some

    25 time, and bearing in mind your requests to speed up

  38. 1 proceedings and to be as efficient as possible, and

    2 we'll be informing you forthwith about the list of

    3 witnesses.

    4 I think I share the opinions of my colleagues

    5 when I say this.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I do appreciate

    7 your points, but we were thinking of a tentative list

    8 which would not be binding, a rough list, say, 50 or 70

    9 or 80 or 120, just to give us a rough idea and to do

    10 some planning, because we have other cases to deal

    11 with. As I say, then you may drop some witnesses. You

    12 may not even give us the list of names, but I think it

    13 would be helpful. But if you are not in a position to

    14 give us even a rough list, all right, then we will do

    15 without that. In any case, we intend to hold this

    16 pre-Defence conference, as I say, when the Prosecution

    17 finishes their case. This was one point.

    18 The second point is that we are making plans,

    19 hoping that security will be provided, to go to Bosnia

    20 to visit Ahmici. We would like to go there on Monday,

    21 the 19th of October, so as soon as the Prosecution case

    22 is over. We understand that we would probably need

    23 three days.

    24 I understand, also, for budgetary reasons,

    25 the Tribunal would cover -- Chambers would cover all

  39. 1 the expenses of the Judges, and probably the

    2 Prosecution should see whether they can find money.

    3 Probably the registry will cover the expenses of

    4 Defence counsel, but I assume that not all Defence

    5 counsel need to be there. It is important that some of

    6 them be there so that we may make sure that both

    7 parties are present while we visit the village. Again,

    8 make plans so that around the 19th, 20th of October,

    9 we'll go there for one day, one full day, plus, of

    10 course, travel.

    11 Since Defence counsel insist on having four

    12 weeks, I've forgotten my diary, but I think we could

    13 start on the 23rd -- have you got your diary? It's a

    14 Monday, around the 20th of November. Actually, I

    15 realise that if we go on until the 18th of December

    16 when we intend to finish, Defence counsel would have

    17 four weeks. So we are wondering whether the Defence

    18 could see whether four weeks would be sufficient,

    19 because ideally -- we don't want to force you.

    20 Ideally, we could also close the Defence case before

    21 Christmas, and maybe if we need time, we might then in

    22 January have the closing statements, the final

    23 submissions of both parties. This, again, is in the

    24 interests of the accused, of a speedy trial. As I say,

    25 this is simply to make some plans, not to force the

  40. 1 parties to rush.

    2 Counsel Radovic?

    3 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I see that you

    4 have planned all of that very nicely to end the trial

    5 as soon as possible. However, I have to inform you

    6 that we are going to tender an expert opinion with the

    7 registry and with the Prosecution, too. I imagine that

    8 the Prosecutor is going to protest strongly. Of

    9 course, if the other side opposes something that an

    10 expert witness says, and this expert opinion has to be

    11 provided at least 30 days earlier before it is

    12 presented as testimony, I'm afraid that the presence of

    13 our experts at this Court is going to change your plans

    14 somewhat.

    15 I mean, the number of witnesses, we will

    16 probably be able to give you a tentative figure on

    17 that. But this expertise that we are planning will

    18 certainly require the appearance of this expert here in

    19 The Hague and to be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,

    20 and also we will be examining the expert witness a

    21 bit. So you can count on the fact that it won't really

    22 be possible to finish by the 18th of December, because

    23 we could not finish this expertise before we finally

    24 questioned a certain witness.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

  41. 1 MR. RADOVIC: So, perhaps, you should count

    2 on that too, that we also have some surprises too.

    3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, one more

    4 question which we should not neglect, by any means.

    5 All of us can stay here for a period of up to 30 days,

    6 according to the visas we have, so not a single one can

    7 stay for longer than 30 days. So that question will

    8 have to be settled too. We're going to try to settle

    9 this matter while we're still here in The Hague, but it

    10 doesn't depend on us, of course, because a stay up to

    11 30 days is what we are allowed in one stretch.

    12 It is the 14th, and if nothing changes, we

    13 can stay only until the 13th of October. We have to

    14 leave the country by the 13th of October.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Well, we will ask

    16 the Registrar to take all the necessary measures to

    17 ensure that you are allowed to stay on until the 16th

    18 of October. It's a Friday. We hope that the

    19 Prosecution will be a bit quicker. I don't know

    20 whether they are going to produce any surprise, I

    21 mean, to come up with surprises.

    22 As for the expert witnesses, may I insist

    23 that, in any case, Rule 94 bis should be complied with

    24 and applied by the Defence, as well as the

    25 Prosecution. This Rule 94 bis, testimony of expert

  42. 1 witnesses, was drafted precisely to avoid any delay in

    2 the proceedings. Of course, I agree with Counsel

    3 Radovic, if the other party is not going to accept the

    4 expert testimony, then the expert witness must be

    5 called and give evidence in court.

    6 I wonder whether there are any other matters

    7 to be raised?

    8 Counsel Krajina?

    9 MR. KRAJINA: Your Honour, I was thinking of

    10 raising an issue or, rather, presenting a proposal in

    11 relation to our trip to Ahmici, the one you've been

    12 planning. I think that our opinion, that is to say, my

    13 opinion and the opinion of my other colleagues, is that

    14 before we go, we submit a brief to the Court as to what

    15 we, as the Defence, consider to be particularly

    16 noteworthy for the Court. That is to say, what the

    17 Judges should particularly pay attention to while they

    18 are there, what they should especially look at while

    19 they are there, and what they should particularly take

    20 note of, which would be in the interest of these

    21 proceedings. Thank you.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We agree. It would be

    23 extremely helpful, and, of course, if the Prosecution

    24 could do likewise, so much the better. We already have

    25 our own ideas and impressions, but we would welcome

  43. 1 briefs from both parties.

    2 Tomorrow, we may start a bit later. There's

    3 no need to rush and to start at 8.30, so we propose to

    4 start at 9.30. We will finish when it is necessary,

    5 because then we will have to write the ruling after

    6 hearing both parties. As I say, I will start with the

    7 Defence counsel, if they want to set out their points,

    8 or if they want the Prosecution first to make their

    9 points and then respond, that's fine with us. The

    10 important thing is that both parties should set out

    11 their views, and we can then decide afterwards.

    12 Before adjourning, since one of the

    13 Prosecutors comes from a civil law country and all

    14 Defence counsel come, also, from civil law countries,

    15 let me raise one issue with you. I know that,

    16 probably, it's merely academic, and I apologise to my

    17 colleagues, because I didn't discuss this matter before

    18 with them and, indeed, tell them that I would raise

    19 this issue.

    20 I noticed during the testimony of Witness L

    21 that one of the accused, Vlatko Kupreskic, was showing

    22 his incredulity, and it was very clear that he didn't

    23 agree at all with what the witness was saying about him

    24 being there and so on. In our countries, this is a

    25 typical case where the accused may be asked by the

  44. 1 Defence or by the Court to make a statement so as to

    2 controvert immediately what the witness is saying.

    3 In my own country where now the common law

    4 system has been adopted, we have two different

    5 approaches to this matter. The witness who is here can

    6 give his testimony under oath only in his own defence

    7 and normally at the request of the Defence and, I

    8 think, also, at the request of the Court. Then he has

    9 to tell the truth, because he has to take an oath.

    10 This is what we also have in my own country.

    11 In addition, we also have the possibility for

    12 the accused to make, what we call, "voluntary statements"

    13 where he does not have to take an oath, and he can, at

    14 any time, tell the Court what he thinks about, say, the

    15 particular testimony. Of course, this is of immense

    16 value to the Court, because the Court may immediately

    17 compare the two statements, that of the witness and

    18 that of the accused.

    19 Now, I discussed, in general terms, this

    20 matter with my colleagues. Of course, we have

    21 particular constraints here because of our system, but

    22 we can probably find a way. Of course, I think that

    23 with the agreement of the parties, to the extent that

    24 we don't infringe on the Statute and our Rules of

    25 Procedures and Evidence, we might move forward and even

  45. 1 take a path which is closer to the civil law system,

    2 take up the best elements of the civil law system. Of

    3 course, we would need the agreement of the parties,

    4 even of Mr. Moskowitz, who is, of course, sceptical

    5 because of his cultural background. Just for your

    6 consideration.

    7 I think we also have to ponder this matter

    8 which is difficult, tricky, and, of course, has

    9 implications, but I think we should bear it in mind and

    10 see whether we can find some way. Because today, as I

    11 say, this was a vivid case, a telling case, where the

    12 contribution of an accused might have been of great

    13 importance to the conduct of our proceedings.

    14 Now, my personal view is that, for instance,

    15 the accused, if he gives testimony at the request of

    16 the Court, for instance, would not be bound by Rule 90,

    17 where it is said that: "A witness may object to making

    18 any statement which might tend to incriminate the

    19 witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness

    20 to answer the question." To my mind, the witness, the

    21 accused, if he gives testimony in court, has a basic

    22 right not to incriminate himself. Therefore, he has a

    23 right to refuse to respond. So I would not apply this

    24 Rule 90F in this particular case, but this is my

    25 personal view, and we have to discuss this matter.

  46. 1 As I say, let us try to see whether we could

    2 improve upon our system and make it more efficient and

    3 more consonant with the interests of justice.

    4 I apologise for this long-winded discussion

    5 of procedural matters. I think we can now adjourn, and

    6 we will reconvene tomorrow at 9.30, probably for one

    7 hour, not more than one hour. Thank you. We will find

    8 the list of witnesses, I hope, tomorrow.

    9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    12 12.17 p.m. to be reconvened on Friday,

    13 the 18th day of September, 1998 at

    14 9.30 a.m.