1. 1 Tuesday, 29th September, 1998

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 (Closed session)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

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  1. 1 --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m.

    2 (The witness entered court)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (Open session)

    7 MR. MOSKOWITZ:

    8 Q. Good afternoon, Witness Y.

    9 THE INTERPRETER: There is a technical

    10 problem. There is a technical problem. Two booths

    11 cannot hear the floor, the English and the B/C/S booth

    12 cannot hear anything from the floor.

    13 The B/C/S booth can now, but the English

    14 booth cannot hear anything.

    15 Could counsel say something now? I think

    16 it's sorted out.

    17 MR. MOSKOWITZ:

    18 Q. Yes. Good afternoon, Witness Y.

    19 A. Good day.

    20 Q. There has been a slight delay because of a

    21 technical problem, but I think we can now proceed.

    22 At this time, I would ask the usher to

    23 display the next Prosecution Exhibit which is identical

    24 to the exhibit that has already been tendered by the

    25 Defence yesterday, D9-2.



  2. 1 We don't have copies for anyone because it's

    2 exactly the same as was tendered yesterday, so there's

    3 no difference, and the only reason we're using this

    4 instead of the Defence Exhibit is because we are going

    5 to do a little marking on it.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: So this map will then be

    7 marked Prosecution Exhibit 227.

    8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.

    9 Q. Now, Witness Y, could you look at that

    10 exhibit, which is number 227, and tell us generally

    11 what that shows.

    12 A. In principal it shows the deployment of

    13 forces, of all three forces, that is; that is to say,

    14 the army, the HVO, and the Chetnik forces.

    15 Q. Now, we have talked throughout this trial

    16 about the front in Turbe and the front in Visoko.

    17 Could you show us where those two fronts are on that

    18 map, perhaps using the pointer which is in front of

    19 you?

    20 A. Turbe (indicating), Visoko (indicating).

    21 Q. I think Defence counsel may have had a hard

    22 time seeing that. Is it possible to sit and point at

    23 the same time?

    24 A. Turbe (indicating). I think that this is

    25 Visoko over here. It doesn't say so on the map, but I



  3. 1 think that it's there.

    2 Q. Now, along the fronts, you see red lines and

    3 blue lines. Tell us first what those red lines

    4 represent.

    5 A. The Chetnik forces. The blue lines are the

    6 BH army forces. And over here, there are HVO forces, a

    7 little bit, and here too (indicating).

    8 Q. So according to this map, there were some HVO

    9 forces along the frontline with the Chetniks?

    10 A. Yes, as you can see, but very few.

    11 Q. Does the map indicate where the majority of

    12 HVO forces were during this time period which is marked

    13 on the map December '92 and January '93?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Where does this map indicate that the

    16 majority of the HVO forces were located?

    17 A. (Indicating). The Lasva Valley.

    18 Q. Now, you've already told us about the 325th

    19 command. Does this map indicate the presence of the

    20 325th command, and if so, can you find it for us?

    21 A. The command of the 325th was located in

    22 Kruscica, over here, exactly over here (indicating).

    23 Q. Is there a symbol there that indicates that

    24 this was, in fact, a command rather than a manned

    25 battalion?



  4. 1 A. Yes. The little triangle here, and what you

    2 see up here above. At any rate, this triangle depicts

    3 the exact location of the command.

    4 Q. Now, it says, next to that Kruscica with the

    5 triangle, it says 1/325. What does that mean?

    6 A. That means that the command of the 1st

    7 battalion of the 325th brigade was also there.

    8 Q. Now, can you find the 2nd battalion of the

    9 325th brigade on that map, and tell us where it is, if

    10 you find it?

    11 A. In Preocica (indicating).

    12 Q. Was that also a command, or was it a manned

    13 battalion?

    14 A. Only the command of the battalion. I'm

    15 sorry. Perhaps -- could I elaborate on it a bit?

    16 Q. Yes. Please go ahead.

    17 A. It wasn't the entire command that was in

    18 these locations, only part of the command of the

    19 battalion, because another part of the command of the

    20 battalion was with our fighters who were on the

    21 frontline at Turbe and in Visoko. As far as manpower

    22 is concerned, there were five to seven men, up to a

    23 maximum of ten altogether.

    24 Q. Now, can you find the village of Loncari on

    25 this map and Nadioci?



  5. 1 A. Nadioci, Loncari (indicating).

    2 Q. Can you see a blue circle next to Loncari?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What does that blue circle signify?

    5 A. I think that Ahmici, the village of Ahmici,

    6 is somewhere around here, and as a symbol on the map,

    7 it doesn't mean a thing to me.

    8 Q. Do you see other blue circles on that map

    9 that are empty?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Do you know what those empty blue circles

    12 signify?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Do you see blue circles that are not empty

    15 that have symbols in them?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. What do they symbolise?

    18 A. I think that these abbreviations symbolise

    19 how strong the unit was. Over here, we have an

    20 abbreviation saying "V" standing for "Vod" which is

    21 "platoon."

    22 Q. Would that signify to you that stationed in

    23 that circle with the "V" would be, in fact, a platoon

    24 of soldiers?

    25 A. I think so, yes.



  6. 1 Q. Now, tell us about some of the symbols that

    2 you see in that map that are, in fact, in the Lasva

    3 Valley but that are red?

    4 A. I don't see any red signs in the Lasva

    5 Valley.

    6 Q. Do you see any symbols for weapons?

    7 A. I do.

    8 Q. Would you point them out for us and tell us

    9 what they symbolise?

    10 A. These two symbols are anti-aircraft guns.

    11 This symbol is a launcher. This too. This is also the

    12 symbol for a particular piece, but I'm not sure which

    13 one (indicating).

    14 Q. Do these symbols for these weapons indicate

    15 to which army these weapons belong?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. According to this map, which army possessed

    18 those weapons?

    19 A. HVO.

    20 Q. Would you take the green marker there in

    21 front of you and circle for us some of those HVO

    22 weapons that are placed on that map in and around the

    23 Lasva Valley, and as you do so, tell us what you're

    24 circling.

    25 A. This is an anti-aircraft gun (indicating).



  7. 1 Likewise. This is a launcher (indicating). The last

    2 two I circled were mortars. I think that's it.

    3 Q. Now, do you see any symbols for checkpoints

    4 in the Lasva Valley?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. What does the symbol for the checkpoint look

    7 like?

    8 A. A circle, and in one circle there is a letter

    9 "P" written in black.

    10 Q. What would that letter "P" signify?

    11 A. ^ "Punkt" which is "checkpoint."

    12 Q. Would these be red checkpoints or blue

    13 checkpoints?

    14 A. Red.

    15 Q. And therefore which side had those

    16 checkpoints?

    17 A. HVO.

    18 Q. Could you circle the checkpoints that you see

    19 in the Lasva Valley, please?

    20 A. The checkpoint Dubravica, its precise

    21 location is the railway station. Checkpoint at

    22 Puticevo; that is as you go out of Novi Travnik. There

    23 are more of them here, but I only know of these two,

    24 and I saw them personally.

    25 Q. You've also mentioned some villages during



  8. 1 the course of your testimony. If I read them off, can

    2 you find them on the map and underline them for us?

    3 Kovacevac, and underline them using your green.

    4 A. (Marks)

    5 Q. And Strane?

    6 A. (Marks)

    7 Q. And Rovna?

    8 A. (Marks)

    9 Q. And Loncari?

    10 A. (Marks)

    11 Q. Pezici, if you can find it?

    12 A. They're not on the map, but they're somewhere

    13 around here.

    14 Q. Same general area?

    15 A. Yes, yes, over here (indicating).

    16 Q. And Merdani?

    17 A. I don't think it's here on the map.

    18 Q. Would it be in the same general area as the

    19 other villages you've underlined?

    20 A. I think that Merdani is somewhere over here.

    21 Q. So in the same general area as Loncari and

    22 Strane?

    23 A. Yes, in the broader area. Merdani is on the

    24 right-hand side of the Lasva River.

    25 Q. And Jelinak and Putis?



  9. 1 A. (Marks). Jelinak, Putis (indicating).

    2 Q. Thank you. You can sit down. Were there any

    3 BiH battalions in Ahmici before April 1993?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Other than the command that you've pointed

    6 out for the 325th, where were the BiH army battalions

    7 located at that time?

    8 A. They were at the front, at Turbe and Visoko.

    9 Q. Do you know an area -- I think we've talked

    10 about this briefly -- called Kuber?

    11 A. (Indicating)

    12 Q. Could you underline that so we can find it

    13 later?

    14 A. (Marks)

    15 Q. Do you know what was at Kuber?

    16 A. I only know that there was a HVO unit at

    17 Kuber.

    18 Q. And just so we can orient ourselves a little

    19 bit, looking at that big map of Ahmici which is partly

    20 covered by the military map, in what direction would

    21 you have to go from Ahmici in order to get to Kuber?

    22 Would it be closer to go through the Upper Ahmici area

    23 or through the other side of Ahmici, down through

    24 Santici?

    25 A. Through Upper Ahmici.



  10. 1 Q. Now, just a couple of more questions about

    2 that map. There are some blue circles up near the

    3 Travnik area, and I think you may have mentioned it

    4 before. Those blue circles have the letter V in them.

    5 Do you see what I'm referring to?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Do you know, again, what those blue circles

    8 signified and what those troops were doing there?

    9 A. As I've already said, the V is an

    10 abbreviation for "VOD," which is a platoon. As for the

    11 units, as this was quite close to the battlefield, the

    12 frontline towards the Serbs, the units were located

    13 there if the need arose for them to intervene and

    14 maintain a defence towards the Serbs.

    15 Q. Then within the valley you see some blue

    16 circles with nothing in them, no V, empty. Were there

    17 any BiH troops located in those blue circles?

    18 A. No, there weren't.

    19 Q. And do you have any explanation or can you

    20 provide any explanation as to what those empty blue

    21 circles mean on that map?

    22 A. I don't know. I have no idea. No.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will, at this time, offer

    24 into evidence Exhibits 225, 226 and 227, the first two

    25 under seal and the last one not under seal. Thank



  11. 1 you.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    3 Counsel Pavkovic.

    4 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the witness will

    5 be interrogated by Defence counsel Ranko Radovic and

    6 Jadranka Slokovic-Glumac.

    7 MR. RADOVIC: I will be brief and my

    8 colleague will not be that brief, so we have changed

    9 roles as it were.

    10 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    11 Q. By way of introduction, may I ask you for a

    12 closed session lest some surnames slip my tongue,

    13 because I will have to be asking questions about

    14 certain individuals, specific individuals.

    15 (Closed session)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



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  13. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (Open session)

    8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    9 Q. Tell me, what ways did you pull out towards

    10 Vrhovine? How was this retreat organised?

    11 A. In groups. Groups of 10 to 20 women, elderly

    12 men, and children.

    13 Q. How many people managed to get up to

    14 Vrhovine?

    15 A. I don't know the exact number.

    16 Q. Could it have been around 500 people?

    17 A. I don't know.

    18 Q. Do you know how large the groups were?

    19 A. Up to 20 people per group.

    20 Q. Did you try to organise it so that these

    21 groups would be escorted by soldiers or by a person

    22 with a rifle on that person?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. How many such soldiers with rifles went up

    25 towards Vrhovine?



  14. 1 A. There were two per group.

    2 Q. So there could have been some ten groups in

    3 view of the number of people?

    4 A. I don't know.

    5 Q. Tell me, where was the line of defence

    6 established on the 17th, on your side?

    7 A. The defence line?

    8 Q. Yes.

    9 A. I believe it was at Barica Gaj.

    10 Q. How many people manned the line at Barica

    11 Gaj?

    12 A. I don't know.

    13 Q. Were you there?

    14 A. Yes, but for a short while.

    15 Q. How many people were -- during the short

    16 while that you were there, how many people were there

    17 then?

    18 A. I don't know exactly.

    19 Q. Well, try to say.

    20 A. How can I say when I don't know exactly?

    21 Q. I'm not asking you exactly. Was it more than

    22 20 people, more than 50, more than 100?

    23 A. Up to 20 people.

    24 Q. How far is it from Ahmici to Vrhovine on

    25 foot? How much time does it take you to get there, for



  15. 1 instance?

    2 A. I believe 30 to 40 minutes.

    3 Q. This line of defence which was set up in

    4 Barica, when was that? Was that already on the 17th,

    5 in the morning of the 17th?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. This line was held by 20 people?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And those are people from the village?

    10 A. Yes, and there were some people from Vrhovine

    11 also.

    12 Q. Did any units from Zenica come to your

    13 assistance?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. You know for a fact that it didn't, or is it

    16 possible they came but you don't know?

    17 A. No, I know for a fact that they didn't, that

    18 one didn't.

    19 Q. Does the name Fehim Mujezinovic (phoen) mean

    20 anything to you? It doesn't mean anything to you? You

    21 don't know?

    22 A. No, no.

    23 Q. If I help you and tell you that he was the

    24 commanding officer, the commander of the Zenica unit

    25 which came to help you on that day, who was killed at



  16. 1 Barica Gaj on the first day?

    2 A. I don't know that.

    3 Q. Until what time were you at Barica Gaj?

    4 A. We came up in the early hours of the morning

    5 and I stayed there for at most two or three hours and

    6 then we returned because the people from Vrhovine had

    7 come in the meantime to see what had happened to us. I

    8 went --

    9 Q. Where did you go?

    10 A. I went to Vrhovine.

    11 Q. Why did you go to Vrhovine? To join the

    12 staff or what?

    13 A. I went to Vrhovine, first of all, because my

    14 family was there, to see them, to tell them that I was

    15 alive, to have a bite to eat and to recuperate a bit.

    16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I'm sorry, could we

    17 have a closed session for a minute only?

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    19 (Closed session)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

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  1. 1 (Open session)

    2 (The witness entered court)

    3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    4 Q. Let us continue. The last thing that we were

    5 discussing was this information about putting units in

    6 the first degree of combat readiness. And you said

    7 that as far as you were concerned, that meant taking

    8 rifles and shooting.

    9 A. Not as far as I was concerned, as far as

    10 organised troops and organised army on the lines was

    11 concerned.

    12 Q. But this cable was sent directly to you,

    13 right?

    14 A. I do not recall to whom it was sent.

    15 Q. To whom could it have been sent if not you,

    16 if you were the person in command?

    17 A. I was not in command at all, I was just the

    18 organiser.

    19 Q. Yes, but whenever command is referred to in

    20 this diary, your name is also there.

    21 A. Well, yes.

    22 Q. Well, tell me who whom else it could have

    23 been sent but to you. To only you, to just you,

    24 right?

    25 A. Yes.



  2. 1 Q. And your reaction to that cable was what?

    2 A. To reinforce the guards.

    3 Q. But you had done that before that. Now, when

    4 we talked the previous date, you said that you had

    5 reinforced the guards then. You said that a cable had

    6 arrived for patrols to be reinforce and for more

    7 reconnoitring to be done. How come you did not receive

    8 a similar telegram?

    9 A. I don't know.

    10 Q. Then, I mean. Okay. So your reaction then,

    11 was it to just reinforce the guards?

    12 A. Yes. We were to inspect the guards to see

    13 how many people were in the guards, and to see how many

    14 reinforcements were needed.

    15 Q. Were there any people on furlough from the

    16 army in the village then?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. How many such people were there?

    19 A. I don't know the exact number.

    20 Q. Well, approximately?

    21 A. I don't know exactly.

    22 Q. Can you say how many members of the B and H

    23 army were in the village?

    24 A. I don't know exactly.

    25 Q. Approximately?



  3. 1 A. Between 30 and 40.

    2 Q. Does that mean that the total number of the

    3 members of the B and H army there was between 30 and

    4 40, and in addition to that there were people engaged

    5 in the village guards?

    6 A. Yes, elderly people.

    7 Q. Were there any minors in the village guards?

    8 A. Yes, I believe that there were some.

    9 Q. Tell me, in the middle part of the village,

    10 in middle Ahmici, how many members of the village

    11 guards were there? You said in the lower part of the

    12 section there were, if I'm not wrong -- what did you

    13 say? I'm sorry, I forgot.

    14 A. I don't understand. Do you mean in one

    15 shift?

    16 Q. No, no, not in one shift.

    17 A. The total.

    18 Q. Yeah, the total number, that's what I mean.

    19 How many people have been envisaged to stand guard?

    20 A. The envisaged number was two for the guard

    21 shift.

    22 Q. How many people were on the list of guards?

    23 A. I don't know exactly.

    24 Q. Do you know that -- you don't know for the

    25 lower part of the village either?



  4. 1 A. No, no, because as I told you, I didn't draw

    2 up those lists of people to stand guard. I rather

    3 inspected the guards and saw to -- sought to deal with

    4 problems and talk to the people and ask them to stand

    5 guard.

    6 Q. So these guards were organised in pairs, two

    7 people, right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And they took shifts -- they took turns every

    10 two hours?

    11 A. Not necessarily every two hours.

    12 Q. How many?

    13 A. Well, I don't know exactly. It depended on

    14 the people directly involved. As the need arose, that

    15 is the way they organised the shifts.

    16 Q. So it could have been longer you're saying?

    17 A. It usually was longer, because there were

    18 only a few people that could stand guard.

    19 Q. So how many people did you need, because you

    20 stood guard from the evening till the morning. How

    21 many people did it take? How many people did you

    22 need?

    23 A. You mean during one night?

    24 Q. Yes.

    25 A. For one shift up to eight people were needed,



  5. 1 for the entire village that is.

    2 Q. From say, 8.00 p.m. to 8.00 a.m. The next

    3 morning?

    4 A. Well, I can't say exactly from what time to

    5 what time, but it was in the evening, in the night

    6 hours.

    7 Q. That would make 24 people if they took turns

    8 every two hours per section of the village. The entire

    9 village?

    10 A. Not the entire village.

    11 Q. You said in principle they would stand guard

    12 for two hours, from the evening till the next morning,

    13 so we can take that to be from 8.00 p.m. to 8.00 a.m.

    14 The next morning, which is 12 hours, meaning 2 hours, 6

    15 people, meaning 12 people per section of the village

    16 per night?

    17 A. How many did you say? What was the total?

    18 Q. Twelve?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. So four sections of the village required

    21 during one night only, approximately 48 people per

    22 night?

    23 A. No, not that many. There were never that

    24 many. It was envisaged, yes, but there were never so

    25 many out there.



  6. 1 Q. But these people would not stand guard the

    2 next night, of course, the following night?

    3 A. They did. As a rule they would go out the

    4 next night, because we didn't have enough people and

    5 usually they did. And sometimes even a single person

    6 would stand guard two shifts per night because of the

    7 lack of people.

    8 Q. But in view of the number of people in the

    9 village, could the number that we could reach as of

    10 people having been involved in the guard be a hundred

    11 for the whole four sections?

    12 A. No, no, much less.

    13 Q. What would you say if I told you, and I've

    14 already told you this, that 27 people were on the list

    15 for the middle part of Ahmici?

    16 A. It is possible. It is possible. That is to

    17 say all the people who lived there were those people.

    18 Of course, not all of them stood guard. Some were, for

    19 example, on vacation. They were members of the army

    20 and they were on vacation. Of course we couldn't make

    21 them stand guard too. I don't know who are the people

    22 who are on this list, but perhaps there are minors

    23 there too and we planned to put them on guard duty

    24 because of the insufficient number we had, but I think

    25 that's it. So these were the people that he had --



  7. 1 that were made available to him in that part of the

    2 village. Whether all of them stood guard or not, I

    3 don't know.

    4 Q. Would you please look at this table on page 3

    5 so that you would see the pairs that were made. So it

    6 wasn't all the people, these are the people who were

    7 listed as members of the guard. Those are the people

    8 from that list.

    9 A. Just a minute, please. Yes. Yes. These are

    10 the people from that part of the village, all the

    11 people who were planned for guard duty. However, some

    12 of these people had jobs, who were not at home, who

    13 were on the frontline against the Serbs. So this was a

    14 total list from that part of the village. And, of

    15 course, he could never get this many people because

    16 there weren't -- they weren't there.

    17 Q. According to this list, these were the people

    18 who went out for guard duty, and it says so on the 7th

    19 of March, that all of these people are duty-bound to

    20 stand guard duty, and if they cannot, that they have to

    21 find themselves a replacement. And number three says

    22 if they do not go out for guard duty, this person would

    23 be sent to prison and would not get a certificate

    24 showing why they could not appear in their regular

    25 jobs.



  8. 1 A. Well, these were only our wishes. This was

    2 wishful thinking. We hoped we could make them go on

    3 guard duty this way but we couldn't.

    4 Q. Was there actually someplace you could take

    5 them to prison, like Preocica?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Now I'm going to tell you what it says on the

    8 15th of April, 1993. "Before dark I went to Preocica, I

    9 drove my wife. Then I got back home. I learned that

    10 the Croats were concentrating around the Kupreskic

    11 houses. We held a meeting (the command) at my place at

    12 20.00 hours. We agreed to set up lines in case of

    13 trouble, and then how and in what way to act. Nidjro,

    14 Sisko and I agreed to met the next day at 14.00 hours

    15 by the line in the direction of Gudura. In the

    16 warehouse I was issued with 7.62 ammunition, 7.9

    17 ammunition, 45 pieces grenade launchers, 3 pieces made

    18 in Zenica explosive devices, two times three cartridges

    19 of plastic explosive.

    20 Q. Tell me, you said that there was a meeting in

    21 that house at 20.00 hours that evening, and you said

    22 that you agreed that you would reinforce the guard, and

    23 here it says that if some problems cropped up that you

    24 would reinforce the line, how to function, in what

    25 way. Is this here true?



  9. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. So you didn't talk about doubling the guard,

    3 you had done that earlier already, but now you agreed

    4 on what should be done if something happened in the

    5 village; is that correct?

    6 A. Well, again, we reviewed the guard. There

    7 were always, always problems with the guard,

    8 constantly.

    9 Q. In addition to agreeing on the line in the

    10 middle part of Ahmici, was the same agreed for the

    11 lower part of Ahmici?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Where was the line for Lower Ahmici supposed

    14 to be?

    15 A. To the right-hand side from my house, above

    16 those houses in middle part.

    17 Q. That is in the middle part?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And by the mosque, down there by the mosque

    20 since there were a lot of people living there?

    21 A. The road that went there.

    22 Q. Was that the main road?

    23 A. No, no, no. On the right-hand side, the main

    24 part of the road leading to that part of the village,

    25 that is to say, on the left-hand side.



  10. 1 Q. Can we see this perhaps on the picture?

    2 Could we remove this map perhaps?

    3 A. In this part of the village (indicating).

    4 This slope goes down here, so this is where the line

    5 was envisaged, in this part of the village. The

    6 planned line was this way, this way and this way

    7 (indicating).

    8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters cannot hear

    9 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please speak into

    11 the microphone?

    12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could I please walk up

    13 to the map so that I could see which part he showed in

    14 relation to what he was telling us?

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    16 A. In this part, in this part of the village and

    17 here.

    18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    19 Q. That means above the mosque?

    20 A. Yes, yes. You see the configuration of the

    21 terrain here, the slope going down here (indicating)?

    22 Q. All right. And now in this part of the

    23 village? That is the middle part?

    24 A. Yes, that is the middle part. I think that

    25 the planned line went this way, this way and this way.



  11. 1 I think it went along this road (indicating).

    2 Q. All right. And the upper part?

    3 A. The upper part over here, from one house to

    4 another. See? And I think it was envisaged to go

    5 somewhere around here. There is a hill here

    6 (indicating).

    7 MR. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: All right.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder if there is a means

    9 of putting this on the record. I wonder whether either

    10 the Defence counsel or Prosecutor could describe the

    11 various defence lines for the record. Could you do

    12 so?

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, I'll do that.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Wonderful.

    15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    16 Q. So the defence line in Lower Ahmici went

    17 behind the lower mosque towards the main road; is that

    18 correct?

    19 A. I showed it just now, I'll show you again.

    20 This part, this part (indicating).

    21 Q. What is the name of that part? There's a

    22 forest there too, isn't there?

    23 A. It's sloped ground here, and that is where

    24 the defence line was envisaged (indicating).

    25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Well, that is what I



  12. 1 said, in the area behind the mosque that goes towards

    2 the main road, in that section.

    3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot

    4 hear the witness, I'm sorry.

    5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    6 Q. All right. In the middle part of Ahmici

    7 where was the defence line?

    8 A. I think it was planned this way, this way and

    9 this way (indicating).

    10 Q. So it went over the road that goes to Upper

    11 Ahmici and in the area of where the upper mosque was,

    12 and it spread from the left and the right-hand side

    13 from the road. How far away is that from the road on

    14 both sides?

    15 A. To the left and to the right you mean?

    16 Q. Yes.

    17 A. Well, I don't know exactly. On the

    18 right-hand side perhaps it's about 200 metres, and on

    19 the left-hand side more. Perhaps about 300. I don't

    20 know, about 300 or 400 metres.

    21 Q. And Upper Ahmici?

    22 A. Well, below these houses here.

    23 Q. Below the houses in Upper Ahmici, along the

    24 road that goes to Upper Ahmici?

    25 A. Underneath the road and underneath the



  13. 1 houses.

    2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, it would

    3 be far more precise if we could draw this on one of

    4 these maps, because it would be important for us too,

    5 the Defence. So could we perhaps get one from the

    6 Prosecutor?

    7 So can we have him draw it here so that we

    8 would have a copy, or perhaps could we have a photocopy

    9 made right now, because I think this would be important

    10 for us.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you using P-226? I

    12 wonder whether this is big enough. It's only a small

    13 part. I don't think it's sufficient. We need a big

    14 plan.

    15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: This would be the best

    16 one. It's the same like up there.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: You're welcome.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: This photograph is marked

    21 D/10.

    22 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    23 Q. Well, could you now draw the lines that I

    24 tried to describe?

    25 A. I don't think you will be able to see it very



  14. 1 well.

    2 Q. Perhaps you could use a different marker or

    3 something.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, and maybe give numbers

    5 to each defence line, 1, 2, 3, 4.

    6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    7 Q. Yes. Could you mark the line and could you

    8 put numbers on them, 1, 2, 3, 4?

    9 A. (Marks).

    10 Q. And what about Lower Ahmici? You can't see

    11 it very well over here.

    12 A. That's marked too. (Marks).

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please use the

    14 pointer and now point to the various lines so that we

    15 can see on the ELMO?

    16 A. This is the line in the lower part of the

    17 village. This is the middle part of the village, and

    18 this is the line in the upper part of the village.

    19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    20 Q. In Lower Ahmici you marked the line with 1,

    21 didn't you?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. So could you please do that? And the rest, 2

    24 for the middle part and 3 for the upper part.

    25 A. (Marks).



  15. 1 Q. Thank you. Please, could you look at the

    2 last page of the diary? Just a minute, please. Tell

    3 me, the line in the middle part of Ahmici, it goes

    4 above the Kupreskic houses, doesn't it?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Well, where does it go?

    7 A. Well, it's not near the Kupreskics' at all,

    8 it's up there.

    9 Q. It's above those houses?

    10 A. Yes, above those houses and to the right.

    11 Q. Tell me now -- look at this last map that you

    12 have in the diary. Is that -- does that approximately

    13 correspond to the median line, the middle line that you

    14 drew?

    15 A. I think so, yes.

    16 Q. When you turn it around; right? Because it's

    17 the other way around. Here are the names of the people

    18 who are supposed to be at various positions along the

    19 line. Was the same kind of sketch made for Upper and

    20 Lower Ahmici so that the people who would be in certain

    21 sections would be exactly registered?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. How many people registered for this lower

    24 part of the village?

    25 A. As many people as happened to be in the



  16. 1 village at that time.

    2 Q. With weapons?

    3 A. Both with and without weapons.

    4 Q. These are only names here, and it is about 20

    5 people altogether, and that's why I'm asking you.

    6 These are people who were in the village that day, that

    7 day that line was made, so they knew they would be in

    8 the village. Was it made in such a way for Lower

    9 Ahmici too?

    10 A. For all three parts of the village this was

    11 planned. That is to say, in case of an attack, the

    12 people who happened to be in the village were supposed

    13 to go to the line and to defend people, civilians, the

    14 old, the young, the feeble, et cetera.

    15 Q. So it was the individual names of people that

    16 were listed?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And how many people were envisaged for Upper

    19 Ahmici?

    20 A. I don't know exactly.

    21 Q. More than for the middle part of Ahmici,

    22 because there were more people there, right?

    23 A. I think so, yes.

    24 Q. And for Lower Ahmici?

    25 A. Well, like for the middle part of the



  17. 1 village. I think that the number is more or less the

    2 same.

    3 Q. All right. That's more than 60 at any rate.

    4 Was the same thing made for Pirici, for this part that

    5 you said you also covered with your guards?

    6 A. Yes, I believe think the same was made for

    7 Pirici.

    8 Q. Where did the line go, the line for Pirici?

    9 A. Under, below the houses.

    10 Q. Can we see that there?

    11 A. Shall I draw it in?

    12 Q. Yes, on the large map. You will show it to

    13 us on the large map.

    14 A. (Marks).

    15 MR. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, number 4.

    16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear

    17 counsel.

    18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    19 Q. Will you show it on the ELMO, on this machine

    20 here?

    21 A. This is it. Between the houses. Namely, all

    22 the lines were planned to be between the houses, in the

    23 house, around the houses, et cetera.

    24 Q. Very well. This involved a similar number of

    25 people, did it the not?



  18. 1 A. No, there were many -- it was much less in

    2 this case. I don't know exactly how many but less.

    3 Q. When you say "in the houses," what does that

    4 mean?

    5 A. That means that in the event of an attack,

    6 people should be there. The moment they ran out of

    7 their houses they should be in the right position to

    8 defend their houses and their families.

    9 Q. Does that mean that they would be using their

    10 houses as a place from which they would shoot if

    11 anything happened?

    12 A. No. No, that doesn't mean that.

    13 Q. All right. Now, we have already said this.

    14 You were counting, in this exercise, on the people who

    15 were in the village because this was done immediately

    16 prior to that date, which is to say the 15th.

    17 A. Yes. We had such an agreement from before

    18 about the establishment of guards, because the moment

    19 that Strane, Merdani and the other villages happened

    20 and Esad was killed, we were compelled to give some

    21 thought to this and to try to find the right solution.

    22 Q. But on the 15th, in view of the information

    23 which you received, you specified this in more detail?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Tell me, did there exist a storehouse, a



  19. 1 depot for weapons in the village?

    2 A. No, there did not.

    3 Q. How come then that the person who wrote this

    4 diary was issued with the weapon from a storehouse

    5 because deformulation use was -- "I was issued with

    6 armament" -- that was on the 15th of April and he did

    7 not take it from somewhere himself, he was issued with

    8 arms from a storehouse.

    9 A. I don't know. I'm quite sure that there did

    10 not exist a depot of weaponry.

    11 Q. But was there a place where weaponry was kept

    12 or some parts of the arsenal, ammunition, for instance?

    13 A. No, no, there was nothing of the kind. The

    14 only -- everything which was there was at the

    15 frontlines towards the Serbs, the rifles, the

    16 ammunition, et cetera.

    17 Q. Except your rifle. Your rifle was in the

    18 village.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And there were more rifles?

    21 A. Yes, there were.

    22 Q. And there was some ammunition because this

    23 man took it on the 15th.

    24 A. Yes, there was ammunition, and how he came by

    25 that ammunition, I don't know.



  20. 1 Q. It also says here explosives and various

    2 charges with plastic explosives and so on. Where did

    3 the explosive come from?

    4 A. I have no idea.

    5 Q. Were the people from the village perhaps --

    6 A. The people worked at the SPS factory.

    7 Q. Was it perhaps from there?

    8 A. Yes, there were some people who worked at the

    9 SPS factory, but they had not been working for quite

    10 some time because it had been occupied so that the

    11 Muslims had no access to it at all. They weren't

    12 allowed to go up there at all.

    13 Q. But in the course of the proceedings, we

    14 heard that people did work at the SPS.

    15 A. Yes, they did. But at that particular time,

    16 in 1992, 1993, they could not access their workplaces

    17 at the Slobodan Princip Seljo factory because the HVO

    18 had taken it.

    19 Q. Tell me, how many people were able to go to

    20 work because the HVO unit was there? How many people

    21 are you talking about?

    22 A. Nobody could go.

    23 Q. But were they on hold, were they made

    24 redundant, or was work going on at the factory at all?

    25 A. I don't know. Some of them were on hold, and



  21. 1 even those who were supposed to work were not allowed

    2 to come and work.

    3 Q. Very well. Let us go back a bit to this part

    4 where you refer to the 325th Mountain Brigade. When

    5 was it set up? In view of the fact that you took part

    6 in its establishment, when was it set up?

    7 A. It was not organised towards the end. It had

    8 not been -- setting up had not been finished at the end

    9 of 1993, although we did work on it daily, but we never

    10 managed to really organise the brigade.

    11 Q. Okay. Tell me: How many battalions did it

    12 have?

    13 A. Two.

    14 Q. Where were the command posts of these?

    15 A. One was at Kruscica and the other one was at

    16 Preocica.

    17 Q. And what about Vitez, Stari Vitez? Was there

    18 a battalion at Stari Vitez?

    19 A. No, not a battalion. It was called municipal

    20 staff at the time.

    21 Q. But was there any unit at Stari Vitez which

    22 remained there after the attack on Stari Vitez? Not

    23 just a staff. You keep referring to a staff. I'm

    24 talking about people.

    25 A. I don't know.



  22. 1 Q. You don't know. Was there a battalion with a

    2 command post in the village of Bukve which comprised

    3 people from Stara Bila, Sadovace, Bukve?

    4 A. No, there was no battalion there at all.

    5 Q. What was there?

    6 A. There were these two battalions and the

    7 people at Stari Vitez, and what their name was, I think

    8 it was the municipal HQ or staff.

    9 Q. But when the 325th was formed, there were no

    10 more HQs, staffs. Tell me -- so there was a command

    11 post of the battalion in Kruscica and the other one at

    12 Preocica. Poculica -- what was in Poculica then?

    13 A. As far as I know, nothing.

    14 Q. Nothing. And was there any unit at Vrhovine?

    15 A. I don't know.

    16 Q. There was a company?

    17 A. I don't know.

    18 Q. Was there one at Dubravica?

    19 A. I don't know that.

    20 Q. Solakovici?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Sivrino Selo? Another company, the second

    23 company?

    24 A. I don't know.

    25 Q. You don't know. What about Pirici, Ahmici,



  23. 1 Santici, and Nadioci?

    2 A. I don't understand.

    3 Q. What was there? How many people were there?

    4 Was there any sort of an organisation, an organised

    5 unit there?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. No. So there were only the guards, as you've

    8 already said, and individual people who individually

    9 were members of the army of the B and H?

    10 A. Yes, there was no organised army formation

    11 there.

    12 Q. According to which principle were the troops

    13 organised? Was it according to the territorial

    14 principle?

    15 A. As a rule, yes.

    16 Q. That means that people from a certain

    17 territory would comprise a certain unit, make up a

    18 certain unit; is that right?

    19 A. I say usually, yes, although it was not that

    20 way in all cases.

    21 Q. Was it according to the territorial principle

    22 that the 325th was set up?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And these individual battalions which

    25 comprised the population from the territory of the



  24. 1 municipality of Vitez?

    2 A. Yes, the 325th Brigade was from Vitez, so it

    3 was only natural that people from that particular

    4 region would be used to man it.

    5 Q. So it depended on the size and the number of

    6 people in a certain area, but the people in a certain

    7 area would also be organised into certain units

    8 depending on the size?

    9 A. I don't understand you.

    10 Q. I'm saying that people from a certain area,

    11 from certain villages or places, were organised into

    12 units according to the territorial principle?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. That means that people who lived in the area

    15 of Ahmici, Santici, and Pirici also had this kind of

    16 organisation, according to the territorial principle;

    17 is that right?

    18 A. All of these people belonged to 325th

    19 Brigade.

    20 Q. To lower formations, you mean?

    21 A. Yes. But which people belonged to which

    22 formations, that I do not know.

    23 Q. All right. In relation to this part that --

    24 oh, just a minute, please.

    25 So in relation to Ahmici, what was the place



  25. 1 that you were at? This diary speaks of the command, so

    2 I am going to simplify matters to: Where was the

    3 command in Ahmici? Where did you usually meet?

    4 A. There was not a specified place.

    5 Q. Was it the school?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Where was the radio station?

    8 A. The radio station was in the house of Nasid

    9 Ahmic, the old house.

    10 Q. That is not the house of the Nasid Ahmic that

    11 you mentioned.

    12 A. No, this is his new house. He had an old

    13 house up there in the other part of the village.

    14 Q. Was that house abandoned?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Who manned the radio station?

    17 A. Several people worked there.

    18 Q. Was duty organised round the clock at the

    19 radio station?

    20 A. Sometimes, yes; sometimes, no. It all

    21 depended on the man who was on duty. It depended on

    22 his conscience, whether he would be there all the time.

    23 Q. However, what was envisaged? Full-time duty?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Do you know when this duty started at the



  26. 1 radio station?

    2 A. I couldn't say exactly.

    3 Q. At the time when you were in the village and

    4 when you were dealing with this organisation, who was

    5 the radio operator? Who do you know as the radio

    6 operator?

    7 A. I think that Husein Ahmic worked there.

    8 Q. What radio station was it?

    9 A. RUP 12.

    10 Q. Was this radio station transferred on the

    11 16th; do you know that?

    12 A. I don't know.

    13 Q. Who were they linked to through this radio

    14 station?

    15 A. With the command of the battalion in

    16 Preocica.

    17 Q. Was there also communication with some other

    18 places?

    19 A. I do not recall. I'm not sure. I think

    20 there was, but I'm not sure.

    21 Q. I have it written down somewhere and I can

    22 remind you of it, but obviously I can't find it.

    23 Was there communication with Kruscica,

    24 Vraniska, Vrhovine, Poculica?

    25 A. I don't think so.



  27. 1 Q. And with some of these places?

    2 A. I don't think so. I don't think there was

    3 any communication with these places.

    4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I would now have to put

    5 a direct question involving a name too, so could we

    6 please move into a closed session?

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we will move into a

    8 closed session.

    9 (Closed session)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  28. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Pages 3400 to 3405 redacted in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    23 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

    24 Wednesday, the 30th day of September,

    25 1998, at 9.00 a.m.