1 Wednesday, 30th September, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.15 a.m.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the
5 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
6 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and
7 Vladimir Santic also know as "Vlado".
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Good morning. Mr. President,
10 just a short announcement on the order of witnesses for
11 today. We've already informed Defence counsel that
12 we'll be putting witness number 6 on first before
13 witness number 5 because of witness number 6's
14 obligations to be elsewhere.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Of course, we are
16 sorry about this short delay, and there may be problems
17 at the detention unit, but I will send a note to the
18 commanding officer so that in future we will not have
19 to wait.
20 We thought we should start with the
21 proceedings without the accused, because we might take
22 about five to ten minutes to discuss procedural
23 matters. There are two points in particular.
24 One point, which is of some importance, is we
25 have now decided to go to Ahmici on the 20th of
1 October, which is a Tuesday, to visit Ahmici on Tuesday
2 the 20th of October. And we have to draw up a sort of
3 itinerary, and for this we need the submissions of
4 Defence counsel other than Counsel Krajina. I wonder
5 whether those commissions are ready, because we would
6 need them today so we can take them into account while
7 making those plans.
8 I was also wondering whether we could have,
9 from either party or both parties, some sort of rough
10 indication about Ahmici. I was thinking there should
11 probably be a short history of Ahmici, and what is even
12 more important is the social composition of this
13 village, say, the level of education and the sort of
14 jobs, I mean, the occupation of inhabitants, whether
15 they were farmers, what sort of job they had, whether
16 they were working -- I mean, a rough idea. I am aware
17 that this is very difficult to have a breakdown of
18 statistics, but it might be helpful also to have an
19 idea of the social background and also the history of
20 this village. This was my first problem.
21 The second matter is about the Witness SA,
22 the lady, you remember. We have now decided to call
23 this witness as a court witness, and we would like to
24 seek your views about how to go about the matter. I
25 mean, the examination of this particular witness.
1 We would be inclined to suggest that we
2 Judges would start off by putting questions to this
3 witness, and then she could be cross-examined by
4 Defence counsel and re-examined by the Prosecutor. I
5 think this will be in the interests of justice and also
6 would be appropriate. Of course, she would have to
7 be -- how shall I say -- protected by the unit, and the
8 unit should be in charge of this witness when she comes
9 here, and should also explain how things go on in
10 court, because I'm sure that she does not know how to
12 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 Yes. In fact, this witness will be called in
14 conformity with Rule 98 of this Tribunal, so this
15 witness is no longer a Prosecution witness as had been
16 the case until then. This witness has not been proved
17 by the Prosecution, so I do think that indeed Your
18 Honours should be the first ones to question this
19 witness, and then I think that the Prosecution should
20 be entitled to examine the witness and then the Defence
21 counsels could question her. I think that this order
22 is the one which should be respected, Your Honours, the
23 Prosecution and then the Defence. But maybe this is a
24 personal view that you do not share.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: But you agree, of course,
1 with the fact that the witness should be protected by
2 the Victim and Witnesses Unit, and I myself favour the
3 view that a representative of the Victim and Witnesses
4 Unit should be present in the courtroom to give her a
5 psychological support.
6 MR. TERRIER: Absolutely, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: But then you think that the
8 Judges should begin first and then the Prosecution and
9 then the Defence; is that right?
10 MR. TERRIER: That is quite right.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: So let us turn towards the
12 Defence counsel to see what they think of your
14 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
15 As far as the question of calling and hearing the
16 witnesses -- the witness, I think that the Defence
17 counsel of Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic could say a few
18 words on that, because we're dealing with a witness
19 testifying to facts which they are interested in.
20 As far as your request is concerned, that is
21 that you -- we give you some background information,
22 that is for the Trial Chamber, on Ahmici, the Defence
23 counsel will look into the matter and perhaps in the
24 course of the day we'll inform you of that matter.
25 We're going to ask somebody to prepare information of
1 that kind for the Trial Chamber, and we're then going
2 to give you an answer in the course of the day. I
3 don't know if there are any other matters that you
5 At the same time, I would like to apologise,
6 when discussing preparations for the trip and
7 everything that should be looked at during the trip, it
8 is true that our colleague Mr. Krajina did not think
9 about the matter but Defence counsel has different
10 views on this issue. Some of them think that they have
11 nothing to draw your attention to specifically because
12 it does not stem from their Defence cases, whereas the
13 others think that this would be disclosure of strategy,
14 Defence strategy or Defence tactics, but at any rate,
15 we'll be informing you in due course, perhaps after the
16 first break, of how things stand and the stand of
17 Defence counsel. Thank you.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Of course, we are
19 not asking you to make submissions about the trip. If
20 you prefer not to submit anything, you are free to do
21 so. It's just because the Defence Counsel Krajina made
22 submissions, we thought that other Defence counsel
23 might also wish to propose to the court particular
24 items to be seen and so on. But you are free to
25 refrain from submitting anything.
1 As to the background information, you don't
2 need to rush. You can give us this background
3 information in one week or ten days. In any case,
4 before we go there. Thank you. Counsel Radovic?
5 MR. RADOVIC: As my colleague Mr. Pavkovic
6 has said that Defence counsel for the brothers
7 Kupreskic will be saying a few words, and my colleague
8 Mrs. Glumac and myself have different standpoints, we
9 would like you to decide.
10 I do agree with the proposal made by the
11 Prosecutor that the Defence be last in questioning the
12 witness, because that is in keeping with the legal
13 system which we come from, whereas my learned colleague
14 Mrs. Glumac feels that there should be -- that we
15 should question the witness before the Prosecutor. So
16 we're in your hands completely, and we shall abide by
17 your ruling. Thank you.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: I may be wrong. I thought
19 that Counsel Slokovic-Glumac was not going to set out
20 her views. So do you want to say a few words about
21 this particular point, who should examine this witness
22 first, you or the Prosecution.
23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Good morning, Your
24 Honours. I think that we are in a position, and as
25 this is not our witness or the witness of the accused,
1 this is a court witness and as he was called, so after
2 the introductory questions by the Trial Chamber,
3 according to regular procedure, we shall take part in
4 the cross-examination and then the Prosecutor will be
5 interviewing the witness, but my colleague Mr. Radovic
6 thinks that it should be otherwise. So it will be
7 according to your ruling. That is to say we -- our
8 role comes up in cross-examination. Thank you.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Our ruling is as follows:
10 There will be, first, questions from the court, then
11 the Prosecutor, then Defence counsel.
12 And we will make plans, that when she comes
13 she can be heard in court the next day so that she
14 doesn't need to stay here too long, because this is to
15 be, for her, quite stressing.
16 All right. We can now bring in the witness.
17 JUDGE MAY: Could I raise something about the
18 on-site visit, which is the actual conduct of the
19 visit. Is anybody going to speak during the visit?
20 Are matters going to be pointed out to the Trial
21 Chamber or not? There are obvious advantages in not
22 having anything said, but there may be difficulties if
23 people want to point something out. I would be
24 grateful if the parties would give some consideration
25 to that. It must be done in an orderly fashion.
1 (The accused entered court)
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
4 MR. RADOVIC: We shall indicate some of the
5 elements which we should like you to see, and in that
6 sense we shall partially be disclosing our Defence
7 tactics, but as we're doing this after the Prosecution
8 has finished presenting his evidence, then it is not
9 important whether we're going to disclose part of our
10 tactics at that particular time or in the
11 introduction. The essential part of our Defence
12 tactics will be made known to you when we show you what
13 we feel you should see. Thank you. And we'll write it
14 down, of course. You'll have it in writing.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier.
16 MR. TERRIER: Yes, I would like to answer
17 Judge May's question. The Prosecution yesterday handed
18 over to the Court a description of Ahmici, and in
19 particular, a description of the sites in Ahmici which
20 the Prosecution thinks are a good thing for you to
21 visit. I think it would be a good thing that during
22 this visit the representatives, both of the Defence and
23 the Prosecution, make a certain number of observations
24 to Your Honours. I think it is useful, and I don't
25 think it poses any problems insofar as the Chamber is
1 perfectly capable, to make the adversarial principle be
3 Of course, if observations are made they will
4 be heard by the other party, and the other party can
5 answer these observations if they don't share what is
6 said. The accused will not be present, that is a
7 fact. That is something that we have thought about.
8 Nonetheless, we think that the adversarial principle
9 will be respected if both the Defence and Prosecution
10 are represented in Ahmici. So I don't think there's
11 any difficulty in that particular situation. You will
12 be able to hear both what the Defence and the
13 Prosecution has to say.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Let me just add, as a
15 footnote, that we have already made provision for
16 having both audio and video recording of the whole
17 visit so that there will be a record. In addition,
18 minutes will be taken by an official of the registry.
19 So everything will be on paper and video recording.
20 Mr. Moskowitz?
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I wonder if -- Your Honours,
22 if it is clear, at this point, from SFOR the kind of
23 access that the Court and counsel will, in fact, have
24 to visit various areas in Ahmici. On the several
25 occasions that I was there, I found my access quite
1 limited by SFOR in where I could go, and I don't know
2 if that sort of attitude has changed with SFOR or
3 whether we'll have more access. And that may, I think,
4 inform the Court as to what the best way would be to
5 converse with counsel. And, of course, I do agree with
6 Judge May that there could very well be difficulties in
7 communication and in drawing attention of the Tribunal
8 to certain things and then other counsel not being
9 present to listen and to make comments.
10 It might be useful to think about limiting
11 contact or conversation to questions that the Tribunal
12 has specifically to ask to counsel rather than to
13 encourage counsel to point to the Tribunal, "Look here,
14 look there." I think it might be a bit of a problem,
15 and that I think the Tribunal should be in total
16 control of the on-site visit and to make the decision
17 as to when and how it should communicate with Defence
18 and Prosecution.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. As for
20 SFOR, let me tell you that I gather that SFOR is
21 waiting for our itinerary, and in light of our
22 suggestions will decide whether or not we may have
23 access to particular areas.
24 Good. Let us move on. Counsel
25 Slokovic-Glumac, would you like to continue with the
1 cross-examination of the witness?
2 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac
4 Q. Good morning, Witness Y. We have received
5 the marked maps with the plan of defence that we saw
6 yesterday. I'm now going to give you the map with the
7 house numbers, and for the record, could you tell us
8 where the line went in relationship to the houses that
9 are marked on the map and are denoted with a number?
10 I don't think you need draw it in. You could
11 just dictate it to us according to the numbers on the
12 map. I think that would be sufficient.
13 THE REGISTRAR: He will have to take the
14 original exhibit then.
15 A. Could you explain to me what you actually
16 want me to do once more?
17 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
18 Q. The lines that you made, the defence lines
19 which were positioned, and you said that you had agreed
20 upon them on the 15th, and you drew them on to the map,
21 referring to Ahmici, upper, middle and lower, and
22 Pirici. So tell us, please, beside which houses,
23 looking at the numbers on the map, the numbers denoting
24 the houses, where these lines passed in relation to the
25 houses on the map. They're marked by numbers.
1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we can't hear
2 the witness.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: You need the microphone.
4 A. Twenty-one, 22, 23, 26, 27. There are no
5 houses further on, so there are no numbers either.
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
7 Q. Up to 31 you mean?
8 A. Somewhere here, exactly here (indicating).
9 Q. Above number 33?
10 A. Thirty-one, yes.
11 Q. So that is the line in Lower Ahmici. What
12 about in middle Ahmici in relation to the houses once
14 A. Seventy-one, 70, 69, 67, 64, 63, 62. I think
15 that's it.
16 Q. Thank you. And now for Upper Ahmici,
18 A. Sixteen, 215, 213, 208, 205, 203, 200.
19 Q. And now for Pirici?
20 A. Two hundred fifty-nine, 258, 255, 254, 251,
22 Q. Tell us, please, whether the situation in
23 1993 was such that people in the village were engaged
24 as soldiers of the BH army, and this would stem from
25 your testimony -- that's why I'm asking you -- or
1 whether they were in the guard units, that is to say,
2 that they had some tasks joined to the army in the
3 village, and I'm talking about the military-able men?
4 A. The able-bodied men had obligations along the
5 frontlines towards the Serbs, and that was the members
6 of the 325th brigade.
7 Q. But did they have an obligation, and where
8 did they perform this obligation on the line?
9 A. Yes, it did exist, but on the line,
10 frontline, towards the Serbs exclusively.
11 Q. So that means they were mobilised; can we say
13 A. A part of them were.
14 Q. Tell me, please, whether you know that a
15 general mobilisation was proclaimed in
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina by the President of the presidency,
17 Alija Izetbegovic?
18 A. I don't remember. I don't know.
19 Q. Do you know whether this was in a particular
20 period or, if you don't know, did you hear about any
21 lists, population lists, concerning mobilisation being
22 drawn up? You worked in the command, so you must have
23 known about that.
24 A. I don't know about that, but I do know that
25 we worked on this with the aim of forming a brigade.
1 That's all I know.
2 Q. Did you have any lists of the former
3 Territorial Defence units?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Why didn't you have these lists?
6 A. Because all the papers had remained in Vitez
7 with the HVO.
8 Q. And in Vitez, you did not have a municipal
9 command post of the BH army?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Where Sefkija Dzidic was the commander?
12 A. This was formed later on, but at that time,
13 the municipal command in 1992, I don't quite remember
14 whether it was '93 as well.
15 Q. Because many witnesses have testified to the
16 fact that the Territorial Defence was wholly taken over
17 by the Bosniaks, and that after that, the BH army was
18 established, and that all the records and lists had
19 remained with the Bosnians.
20 A. I don't know exactly, but I don't think they
21 remained in the hands of the Bosnians.
22 Q. Very well. Do you know when the BH army
23 began to be set up?
24 A. I don't know the exact date, but I do know
25 that the Patriotic League and the development of the
1 army through the Patriotic League and Territorial
2 Defence, and later on it became an army, but I don't
3 recall the exact date.
4 Q. What year would that be? What year was the
5 Patriotic League set up?
6 A. In 1991, '92, I don't know exactly. I don't
7 know about the Patriotic League.
8 Q. And what about the BH army?
9 A. The BH army I think was set up at the end of
10 1992 and the beginning of 1993, that is its initial,
11 the first steps towards forming the army.
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: We're going to refer to
13 the orders related to the general mobilisation. I
14 should therefore like the usher to take copies of the
15 order, and I would like to ask the witness to have a
16 look at this document.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D12-2.
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
19 Q. Please, in view of the fact that during 1992,
20 at the end of '92 and the beginning of '93, until the
21 conflict in Ahmici, you worked on the formation of the
22 325th brigade, are you familiar with the information
23 provided in this order, because this served as legal
24 grounds for you for calling up people and asking them
25 to join the BH army?
1 A. First of all, I didn't work on this, I only
2 helped people who were working and who were in charge
3 of these papers, and this is the first time I have seen
4 these orders.
5 Q. So you didn't even know the general
6 mobilisation was declared?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You didn't know about that, so how did you --
9 how did you muster these people? Not everyone was a
10 volunteer, I imagine, so on what basis did you call
11 them up? There is an obligation, during general
12 mobilisation, to accept call-up papers and to respond;
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So you must have known what the legal grounds
16 for this were.
17 A. I repeat, I only helped these people.
18 Q. But you said that you were working in the
19 command. In the village you were helping and over
20 there you were helping too?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could these contents be controversial or are
23 you simply unfamiliar with this?
24 A. I am not familiar with this.
25 Q. Tell me, when the army of the Republic of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina was established, do you know which
2 corps were formed, and this broader Vitez area,
3 Vitez-Busovaca-Zenica, this region, where did it
5 A. I know that our brigade belonged to the 3rd
7 Q. How many corps were set up; do you know that?
8 A. Four, I think. I think four were set up.
9 Q. And the 3rd Corps covered which area?
10 A. I don't know exactly.
11 Q. Did it include the Zenica area; do you know
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I kindly ask the usher
15 to hand in these papers too. This is the decision to
16 set up the corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
17 and on the establishment of the army of Bosnia and
19 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D13-2.
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
21 Q. Well, what about the information provided
22 there; is it correct to the best of your knowledge?
23 A. I am familiar with the corps that are
24 mentioned here, and these zones of responsibility, that
25 I don't know about. I just know that our brigade
1 belonged to the 3rd Corps. And the 3rd Corps, which
2 zone of responsibility it had, that I do not know.
3 Q. The decision on the establishment of corps of
4 the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you
5 are not denying this date that is here, that is also
6 the establishment of the army?
7 A. I don't know exactly.
8 Q. Tell us, in view of the fact -- or, rather,
9 let us go back to your work again. You worked at the
10 command, on these lists of men. Do you know what
11 happened to people who came to the Vitez area as
12 refugees? Were they included and in which way were
13 they included or, rather, were they mobilised? Were
14 they sent to certain units? Were they supposed to
15 report to Territorial Defence headquarters? The
16 command? Where?
17 A. I think they were supposed to do so; that is
18 to say, according to the territorial principle,
19 according to where they were staying, in which parts of
20 the village. They simply came in and reported to these
21 units in the command of the brigade, part of them.
22 Q. If they stayed there, were they supposed to
23 stay on longer, if they got a house? Was this an
24 obligation that they took upon themselves?
25 A. No, no. People would simply stay where there
1 was enough room, where there was enough space, where
2 they were accepted by local people, so there were no
3 obligations involved.
4 Q. Were records kept?
5 A. Well, to the extent possible.
6 Q. Were there any problems and were additional
7 papers presented in this period at the end of 1992 and
8 1993? If a military-age man wanted to leave Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina, did he have to get special permits from
10 the authorities in charge?
11 A. I don't know. No. I don't know. I think
12 that at that time, if people wanted to leave the
13 country, I don't think they reported it to someone,
14 they would simply take care of their papers and leave.
15 Q. In Ahmici, there were families where the wife
16 and the children would leave and the husbands would
17 stay behind. These were refugees. However, they
18 couldn't get all the right papers. Do you know
19 anything about that? Were they stopped in a way?
20 A. No.
21 Q. (redacted). Yesterday you
22 said that that house had a very strong basement and
23 that therefore it was envisaged as some kind of
24 improvised shelter; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, yes. It was in a small ravine.
1 Q. Tell me, was there an evacuation plan for
3 A. Well, let me say one thing. There were no
4 plans. It was only that we had agreed amongst
5 ourselves. But plans, in the sense of military plans,
6 real plans, they did not exist. So it is only that we
7 agreed amongst ourselves.
8 Q. And also tell me, since at that time there
9 was civilian defence too and it was involved in various
10 matters and it was partly involved in the
11 implementation of evacuation and even planning of
12 evacuation, do you know whether, through the civilian
13 defence in the Vitez municipality, evacuation plans
14 were made for some villages that could be jeopardised,
15 for example, the village of Ahmici?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Do you know a person called Fuad Zeco?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know which post he held in 1992, 1993,
20 in addition to being employed as a veterinarian?
21 A. No. I don't know. I only know him as a vet.
22 Q. Was he a kind of commander of civilian
23 defence units? Do you know anything about that?
24 A. I don't know exactly what he did. I think he
25 did work in the civilian defence, but what he exactly
1 did there, I don't know.
2 But could I clarify this a bit further? He
3 worked on civilian defence matters, and this civilian
4 defence, which was attached to the brigade, it was
5 supposed to go and help the army up at the frontline,
6 you see?
7 Q. They didn't do things related to working out
8 evacuation plans?
9 A. No. That, I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know how many people were involved?
11 A. No.
12 Q. I checked the transcript, and certain names
13 were not included, so I wish to ask you about this
14 again. These are persons who we mentioned as soldiers
15 under the command of a squad leader. I don't need
16 this. It is the text in the diary of the 14th of
17 March, and this person was elected squad leader and his
18 soldiers are the following persons from the village.
19 First of all, a person called Nasko. Is that
20 Nasid Ahmic?
21 A. I think so.
22 Q. The person called Lato, is that Latif Ahmic?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. Huso? Do you know who that is?
25 A. There are several Husos and also there are
1 two Latif Ahmics.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters couldn't
3 hear Defence counsel.
4 A. There was a Huso in the middle part of
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
7 Q. Do you know his last name?
8 A. I think it was Krdzalic.
9 Q. Hazro? Hazrudin Ahmic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Osman? Was it maybe Budo Osmancevic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Alaga?
14 A. Alaga is not from that part of the village, I
16 Q. Alaga Ahmic, he is from the lower part?
17 A. Yes, he's from the lower part.
18 Q. Is it possible that he is that Alaga?
19 A. It's possible.
20 Q. Muamera?
21 A. I don't know what Muamera you mean.
22 Q. Could it be Muamera Pjanic?
23 A. It could.
24 Q. Munir? Munir Ahmic?
25 A. Yes, there is a Munir Ahmic.
1 Q. And Samir. Do you perhaps know his last
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is this a man from the village by the name of
5 Samir or is it a refugee who was staying there? Is
6 that a customary name?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In line 19, Muamer Pjanic, you said that it
9 was him. You said "Yes." You said that it is possible
10 that that is that person?
11 A. Yes, it is possible.
12 Q. Other things that we should go through,
13 various lists, and I would like to hear what you have
14 to say in connection with these people. Do you know
15 who were members of the BH army and who had weapons?
16 You knew people in the village, right, especially
17 military-age men?
18 A. Well, mostly, yes.
19 Q. Hajrudin Pjanic?
20 A. I'm not sure who was a member. I can answer,
21 but I'm not sure whether they were members of the 325th
22 brigade or not.
23 Q. Well, yes. Try.
24 A. What did you say once again?
25 Q. Hajrudin Pjanic?
1 A. I'm not sure about him.
2 Q. And weapons? Did he have any weapons?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Senus Pjanic?
5 A. He was a member.
6 Q. Weapons?
7 A. I think he did have weapons.
8 Q. Muamer Pjanic?
9 A. I do not recall.
10 Q. That is probably the Muamer Pjanic you
11 mentioned to be on this list, so that will mean that
12 he's a soldier.
13 A. I do not remember, really.
14 Q. Weapons?
15 A. No, no, he didn't have any.
16 Q. Mirsad Ahmic, son of Eso?
17 A. I think he was a member.
18 Q. Weapons?
19 A. I don't think he had any.
20 Q. Ahmic Munir?
21 A. Yes, he was a member.
22 Q. Weapons?
23 A. I don't think he had any.
24 Q. Ahmic Nedzib?
25 A. I'm not sure whether he was a member.
1 Q. Weapons?
2 A. I think he had weapons.
3 Q. Ahmic Zijad?
4 A. I don't know about him.
5 Q. Weapons?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Ahmic Zahir?
8 A. I don't think that he was a member or that he
9 had any arms.
10 Q. Ahmic Alaga?
11 A. I don't know about him.
12 Q. We said that Ahmic Alaga was on a list.
13 A. Yes, yes. He's on the list, but I don't know
14 his status, really.
15 Q. Wouldn't he be a member of the BH army if he
16 was there on the squad?
17 A. Possibly, but I'm not sure.
18 Q. Ahmic Nezir?
19 A. I don't know. Again, I don't know.
20 Q. Weapons?
21 A. I don't think he had any.
22 Q. Ahmic Nurija?
23 A. He was a member.
24 Q. Weapons?
25 A. No, he didn't have any.
1 Q. Ahmic Vehbija?
2 A. I don't know his status.
3 Q. Weapons?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Ahmic Abdulah?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Weapons?
8 A. I don't think he had any.
9 Q. Ahmic Munir?
10 A. I think he was a member, but I don't know
11 whether he had any weapons or not.
12 Q. Ahmic Muris?
13 A. He was a member. He didn't have any weapons.
14 Q. Ahmic Mehmed, son of Sudzuka?
15 A. I don't know his status.
16 Q. Weapons?
17 A. I don't think he had any.
18 Q. Ahmic Fahrudin? Fahro?
19 A. There are two of them -- I don't know. I
20 don't know his status.
21 Q. One played an instrument and the other one --
22 A. I don't know his status.
23 Q. Bilic Hazrudin?
24 A. He was a member.
25 Q. Weapons?
1 A. I think he had some.
2 Q. Bilic Mehrudin, his brother? Yes.
3 A. I don't know his status at that time.
4 Q. And weapons?
5 A. I don't think he had any.
6 Q. Ahmic Sedik, son of Sakib?
7 A. He was a member.
8 Q. Weapons?
9 A. I don't know. I think he was in the police
10 in Vitez. I'm not too sure. I don't know.
11 Q. These policemen, did they have weapons? Did
12 they keep their weapons, these reserve policemen who
13 were in the village?
14 A. No. In the village, they didn't have any
15 weapons, and up there, where they carried out their
16 duties, I imagine they would.
17 Q. How many reserve policemen were there in the
18 village; do you know that?
19 A. I don't know exactly.
20 Q. Could there have been ten of them?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Five?
23 A. Maybe.
24 Q. Ahmic Sulejman, Sakib Baricin's?
25 A. Yes, he was a member.
1 Q. Weapons?
2 A. I don't know. I'm not quite sure.
5 Q. Weapons?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Zahid Ahmic?
8 A. He was a member.
9 Q. Weapons?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Ahmic Mirnes.
12 A. He was a member? I don't know whether he had
13 any weapons.
14 Q. Ahmic Salih?
15 A. I don't know his the status.
16 Q. Ahmic Latif. That would be one of the
17 soldiers from the village again.
18 A. Well, there are two Ahmic Latifs in the
19 village. Both were members.
20 Q. Weapons?
21 A. I don't know whether they had any.
22 Q. Ahmic Latif?
23 A. I don't know his status.
24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Sabahudin?
25 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't catch the
2 A. He wasn't a member and he did not have any
4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
5 Q. Ahmic Mensur?
6 A. He had no weapons and he wasn't a member.
7 Q. Pezer Zakir?
8 A. I don't know his status.
9 Q. Weapons?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Pezer Osman?
12 A. I think he was a member, and I think he had a
14 Q. Pezer Redzo?
15 A. He was a member. He had no weapons.
16 Q. Pezer Muhamed, the driver?
17 A. I don't know his status. He had some private
19 Q. Rako Jahija?
20 A. I don't know his status.
21 Q. Rako Mehmed?
22 A. I don't think he was a member or that he had
24 Q. Osmancevic Budo?
25 A. I don't know who that is.
1 Q. We said that it was an individual called
2 Osman, who is also on the list of the soldiers
3 mentioned, from the unit mentioned, to which the text
4 in the diary refers. Osmancevic Budo, nicknamed Osman?
5 A. I really don't know who that could have
7 Q. Muratovic Budo?
8 A. I don't know his status.
9 Q. Pezer Omer?
10 A. I don't think he was a member, and he didn't
11 have weapons either.
12 Q. Pezer Suad?
13 A. I don't know who that is.
14 Q. Redzib's son?
15 A. I don't know that individual, Pezer Suad.
16 Q. Pezer Sefik?
17 A. I don't believe that he was a member.
18 Q. Ahmic Naser?
19 A. I think he was a member, but he did not have
20 any weapons.
21 Q. Ahmic Esudin, called Eso?
22 A. I think he was a member.
23 Q. Weapons?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Ahmic Sukrija?
1 A. I don't know his status.
2 Q. Weapons?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Krdzalic, the father and son. It would be
5 Huso and his son?
6 A. Huso, yes, he was a member, but I don't know
7 about his son. Weapons, I don't know whether he had
8 any weapons.
9 Q. His son?
10 A. I don't know about the son at all.
12 A. I don't think he was a member.
13 Q. Weapons?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Huskic Rifet?
16 A. He was probably a refugee. I don't know.
17 Q. Rizvanovic Esad?
18 A. I don't know at all.
19 Q. Ahmic Hazrudin, known as Hazro?
20 A. I don't know his status.
21 Q. Ahmic Nasid?
22 A. I don't know whether he was a member.
23 Q. Once again, he is an individual from the
24 list, nicknamed Nasko. That would probably be a
25 soldier who was there. Weapons?
1 A. I don't think he had any.
2 Q. Kermo Elvedin?
3 A. I don't know whether he was a member.
4 Q. Weapons?
5 A. I don't think so.
6 Q. Pezer Sezahija?
7 A. I don't know his status.
8 Q. Ahmic Nermin, Rifet's son?
9 A. I think he was a member.
10 Q. Weapons?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Berbic Muris?
13 A. He was a member.
14 Q. Weapons?
15 A. I don't think he had any.
16 Q. Berbic Vahidin, know as Musa.
17 A. He was a member.
18 Q. Weapons?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know whether somebody from the village
21 gave him a hand launcher?
22 A. To whom?
23 Q. To Berbic Vahidin, called Musa, with
24 grenades, hand-held launchers with grenades?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Hukic Suljo?
2 A. I think he was a member.
3 JUDGE MAY: Mrs. Glumac, if we're going to
4 make sense of this we're going to need a list. At this
5 moment the names are being read out, naturally enough,
6 the transcript is not always at all clear. At some
7 stage we're going to need a schedule if you're going to
8 rely on this evidence, a schedule with these names on,
9 and the witness's evidence about them so that we may
10 know who it is accepted was a member, who it is
11 accepted had weapons, and who it's denied. Are you
12 going to rely on this evidence?
13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: We're going to supply
14 the interpreter service, when we conclude this section
15 here, the testimony of the witness, we shall be
16 supplying them with a list of witnesses -- with the
17 list that we read out. And the official list, I don't
18 think we have all the data, and that is why we're using
19 our witnesses, but we shall be supplying the Trial
20 Chamber with a list of these names, because very often
21 we have to use this method to arrive at the names, and
22 this is an essential part of our defence, and we shall
23 be contacting the interpreter service and control the
24 names and listen to the tape again probably.
25 As I say, this is an essential part, and we
1 cannot come by a list of this kind. There is no
2 uniform list which would state that so and so was a
3 member. So we have to ascertain, ourselves, how many
4 of them there were and their status, because we had to
5 compile lists from the different lists that exist,
6 because they're not only complete lists and this is the
7 only method of doing that. Unfortunately, I know it is
8 very tiring and boring for you, but there is no other
9 way in which we can accomplish this.
10 JUDGE MAY: That, Mrs. Glumac, does not
11 matter. What does matter is that we deal with it
12 fairly expeditiously. How many more names have you
14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: There are still some 40
16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Could you please make
17 sure that we have, in due course, a list, and against
18 the list this witness's evidence, so whether it is
19 accepted or not that the name, the particular person
20 was a member, and whether it's accepted or not that the
21 person had a weapon. And might I also suggest there's
22 some space on it for any further evidence that there
23 might be about those particular names, otherwise, it's
24 very difficult to follow.
25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Very well, Your
1 Honour. Thank you. We shall do that. The problem is
2 how to arrive at that information. We have different
3 types of lists, but we shall comply to the best of our
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. Hukic Mujo?
6 A. I don't know his status.
7 Q. Hukic Budo?
8 A. The same for him.
10 A. I don't know exactly.
11 Q. He is from upper Ahmici?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You must have seen him around.
14 A. I don't know his status.
15 Q. Weapons?
16 A. I don't suppose that he had any.
17 Q. Patkovic Muharem?
18 A. I don't think he lived in Ahmici.
19 Q. Pezer Zikrija?
20 A. He was a member. I think he had a rifle.
21 Q. Faoka's sons, the two of them?
22 A. I know that one was a member. I don't know
23 about the other.
24 Q. Can you tell us the name?
25 A. Ahmic Fikret.
1 Q. Did he have any function in Upper Ahmici in a
2 sort of command? Was he in charge in any way in Upper
3 Ahmici to perform certain duties of a military nature?
4 A. I don't recall. I don't think he did.
5 Q. Pezer Ahmet?
6 A. I don't know about his status.
8 A. I don't think he was a member.
9 Q. Weapons?
10 A. No.
12 A. I don't believe he was a member.
13 Q. Weapons?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Ahmic Sead. They are Zuhda's sons?
16 A. I don't think they were members.
17 Q. Arms?
18 A. I don't think he had any.
19 Q. Ahmic Senad?
20 A. Yes, he was a member.
21 Q. Weapons?
22 A. I think he did have some.
23 Q. Ahmic Latif?
24 A. Member.
25 Q. Weapons?
1 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
2 Q. Hrustanovic Enes, Meho's son?
3 A. He was a member.
4 Q. Weapons?
5 A. I apologise. I think that Hrustanovic Enes
6 did not live in Ahmici at the time.
7 Q. Sisic Senad?
8 A. He was a member.
9 Q. Weapons?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Ahmic Zeir?
12 A. He was a member.
13 Q. Weapons?
14 A. I think he did have weapons.
16 A. I don't know his exact status.
17 Q. Weapons?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Berbic Muris?
20 A. I don't know his status.
21 Q. Weapons?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Ahmic Asim from Zume?
24 A. I don't know his status.
25 Q. Weapons?
1 A. I think he had some weapons. He was a hunter
2 so he probably had hunting weapons. He was a hunter
3 and I think he did have some.
4 Q. Ahmic Hazim from Pirici?
5 A. Yes, he was a member.
6 Q. Weapons?
7 A. I think he did have some.
8 Q. Ahmic Azim, Rasim's son, the shoemaker?
9 A. I don't know his status.
10 Q. Ahmic Nesib?
11 A. The same goes for him. I think that at that
12 time -- no, no, he wasn't.
13 Q. Pezer Fadil?
14 A. I can't remember that man.
15 Q. (redacted)
16 A. I think he was a member.
17 Q. Weapons?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Danac Mirsad, nicknamed Mirso?
20 A. I think he was a member.
21 Q. Weapons?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Ahmic Rasim. We already asked that. Do you
25 A. He was a member. I don't know whether he had
1 any weapons or not.
2 Q. Pezer Omer?
3 A. I don't know his status.
4 Q. Pezer Ismet?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. From the lower mosque. That's where he
8 A. I don't know his status.
9 Q. Patkovic Dervis?
10 A. Also.
11 Q. Reuf Podojak?
12 A. I don't know anything about them.
13 Q. Podojak Semir?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Elvir Mehmed?
16 A. I don't know. I don't know their respective
18 Q. Dzidic Muharem?
19 A. I don't know his status.
20 Q. Dzidic Nedzad?
21 A. I think Nedzad was a member of the army but
22 I'm not sure.
23 Q. And weapons?
24 A. I don't know whether he had any.
25 Q. Ahmic Nesib from Zume?
1 A. I cannot remember that man.
2 Q. A driver?
3 A. I don't know his status.
4 Q. Ahmic Dzevad, Nesib's son?
5 A. I don't know his status.
6 Q. Dedic?
7 A. Likewise.
8 Q. Dedic Fariz?
9 A. Likewise.
10 Q. Ahmic Mehmed, Zume kod Ogreva?
11 A. I doesn't think he was a member.
12 Q. Strmonja Mustafa?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Strmonja Miralem?
15 A. I think he was a member.
16 Q. Weapons?
17 A. I do not recall.
18 Q. Strmonja Nermin?
19 A. I do not remember his status.
20 Q. Pezer Nevzudin?
21 A. I think he was a member.
22 Q. Weapons?
23 A. I don't know.
25 A. He was a member.
1 Q. Weapons?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Ahmic Cazim? Those are Santici too, by the
4 river Lasva. Do you know this Ahmic Cazim?
5 A. I don't know who you're referring to.
6 Q. It says here by the Lasva River, so they are
7 from Santici.
8 A. I don't know. I cannot remember.
9 Q. Ahmic Zenur?
10 A. I don't know his status.
11 Q. Ahmic Amir?
12 A. Likewise.
13 Q. Ahmic Fahrudin, Asim's son?
14 A. I don't know his status.
15 Q. Bilic Ramo?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Bilic Zijad?
18 A. I don't know. I mean, I know the people but
19 I don't know their status, whether they were members of
20 the army, whether they had any weapons, et cetera.
21 Q. And the people I mentioned to you just now,
22 are most of them military-aged men, the right age to be
24 A. That I don't know.
25 Q. Also, do you know a person called Jasar
1 Zubalj. He was a radio operator?
2 A. Jasar you mean?
3 Q. Oh, Jasar. Was he a member?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Weapons?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You said that rather as -- that you started
8 setting up these village guards in 1993 and that you
9 didn't know what was happening in 1992. Do you know
10 anything about the establishment of the Territorial
11 Defence and its development in that period?
12 A. Nothing special. I already said that I was
13 in this mixed unit, so I was only involved in that
15 Q. When were you appointed to man these guns?
16 A. In April 1992.
17 Q. Was this an appointment made by the SPS,
18 within the SPS factory?
19 A. Well, it was this way: I got a paper from
20 Vitez, Krizanac Stipo was head of the department then,
21 and I got this paper and I went to report in.
22 Q. And already in April 1992, already at that
23 time, were certain lists being made in villages? Were
24 some kind of units being set up at that time? This was
25 a year before the attack. Was this at least on paper?
1 Were any records made? Do you know anything about
3 A. No, no. I don't know whether units were
5 Q. But is it possible?
6 A. Yes, it's possible.
7 Q. All right. This is part of Varup Enes, and
8 this diary of Varup Enes is in the Blaskic files, and
9 we are talking about three pages from this diary, and
10 it dates back a year before the conflict, and already
11 85 men were on this list for forming units at the level
12 of a company. These were notes that were taken in
13 passing. It is not very well charted, but you can see
14 what it's all about, and you will also see its number
15 in terms of it being admitted as evidence in the
16 Blaskic trial.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I would
20 like to put a few questions, but identity could be
21 revealed directly. So I appreciate it if we could move
22 into closed session, or perhaps we could take a break
23 at this point and continue after the break in closed
25 JUDGE CASSESE: How much time do you need now
1 to complete your cross-examination?
2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Fifteen odd minutes,
3 not more than that.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Let's go on so you may
5 conclude your cross-examination and then we will take a
7 (Closed session)
13 Pages 3450 to 3469 redacted in closed session
12 (The witness withdrew)
13 (Open session)
14 JUDGE CASSESE: While we are waiting for the
15 witness, I will ask the Prosecutor when they think we
16 will receive the list of witnesses for the next week.
17 Friday or tomorrow?
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will try tomorrow, but it
19 may be Friday.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
21 (The witness entered court)
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Captain
23 Woolley. Could you please stand and make the solemn
25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
4 seated. Counsel Pavkovic?
5 MR. PAVKOVIC: I'm sorry, Mr. President,
6 because you have already moved on, but we would kindly
7 request the following: We have been informed that
8 tomorrow and the day after tomorrow are not working
9 days, so could the Prosecutor please provide us with a
10 list so that the Defence could prepare itself for these
11 witnesses that are to be heard next week. Why not
12 today rather than on Friday? Why not provide a list of
13 witnesses earlier?
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: In response to that, we are
15 still evaluating which witnesses are going to be called
16 and when, and we will provide it, if possible,
17 tomorrow. I think today it is probably not going to be
18 possible because we still haven't finalised our list
19 for next week. Part of the problem is that this last
20 witness went on quite a bit longer than we anticipated
21 and we have other witnesses who are here and then other
22 witnesses who have obligations, so we are trying to
23 balance things out. We will meet today after court to
24 try to finalise that list, and hopefully by tomorrow we
25 will have a list.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Tomorrow morning, could
2 you try to provide it --
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will try.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Tomorrow. By the way, you
5 know that we have now two more weeks, even less.
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This is also part of our
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. And don't forget that
9 next week, we intend to call the lady, the witness, we
10 mentioned before.
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This will be next week.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Next week, yes.
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Do we know which day or what
14 day at this point?
15 JUDGE CASSESE: One day after she is here in
16 The Hague so that she is not obliged to stay too long.
17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will see -- I
19 hope that by tomorrow both Defence counsel and the
20 Court will receive this list.
21 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 WITNESS: MATTHEW ROBERT WOOLLEY
23 Examined by Mr. Smith:
24 Q. Major Woolley, you've just recently been
25 promoted, is that correct?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Since making this statement you were, in
3 fact, a Captain but in the last few months have been
4 promoted to Major?
5 A. That's correct, yes.
6 Q. Can you tell the Court your occupation at the
8 A. I'm a Major in Her Majesty's armed forces in
9 Britain. I'm squadron leader of a reconnaissance
10 Squadron of the 9th/12th Royal Lancers.
11 Q. When did you join the British army?
12 A. In July 1987.
13 Q. And in November 1992 did you attend in
15 A. Yes, I was deployed there.
16 Q. And what was the purpose for going to Bosnia?
17 A. It was for providing humanitarian aid to
18 beleaguered people within Bosnia as part of UNPROFOR.
19 Q. Where were you based?
20 A. Throughout most of the time in Vitez.
21 Q. How long was your tour in Bosnia?
22 A. Six months.
23 Q. And prior to going to Bosnia can you give the
24 Court an idea of any other field operations that you've
25 been involved in?
1 A. I served with the United Nations in Cyprus in
2 1990. I was called back from there to go to the Gulf
3 in 1991, and then I was deployed to Bosnia in 1992.
4 Q. Can you describe to the Court the training
5 that you received in relation to being an officer in
6 the British army?
7 A. I spent a year at the Royal Military Academy
8 Sandhurst. Of course, that's general training. And
9 prior to going to Bosnia, received a couple of months
10 of training. And each year we conduct army training
11 directives which include things such as first-aid and
12 the law of armed conflict.
13 Q. When you arrived in Bosnia, and more
14 specifically at about March/April 1993, can you explain
15 to the Court the general military situation in the
16 Vitez area, the Vitez opstina, and the ethnic origins
17 of the people who lived in that municipality and
19 A. The ethnic origins of the people of the Vitez
20 opstina were pretty much 50 per cent Croat and 50 per
21 cent Muslim. When we arrived in November'92, the two
22 ethnic groupings, I think socially and militarily, were
23 pretty much in loose alliance. Their common aggressor
24 was the Bosnian Serbs.
25 Q. And the particular names of the military
1 groupings that related to the Bosnian Muslims and the
2 Bosnian Croats?
3 A. The Croat army was known as the HVO or the
4 HVO (pronounced phonetically), and the Muslims as the
5 Bosnian armija.
6 Q. In terms of the Vitez municipality and
7 nearby, can you explain to the Court where any
8 confrontation lines may have been with the Bosnian
10 A. In that area, the Bosnian Serb frontline was
11 pretty much to the north-west of Vitez in an area called
12 Turbe, just north-west of Travnik.
13 Q. Can you tell the Court whether there was any
14 presence at all of Bosnian Serb military forces within
15 the municipality of Vitez or the immediate area outside
16 of that?
17 A. No, there weren't. No, there weren't.
18 Q. In April you attended a village called
19 Ahmici; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Had you been familiar with that village prior
22 to attending there?
23 A. I'd driven past it but was unaware, like so
24 many of the other small villages around there, that it
25 was just another village.
1 Q. Can you tell the Court what the predominant
2 population was in relation to ethnic group?
3 A. Predominantly Muslim, quite clearly. And a
4 minaret stands -- or stood very prominent in the front
5 part of the village.
6 Q. And the general situation in the Vitez
7 municipality in April 1993 before you attended Ahmici,
8 can you explain to the Court what that situation was in
9 military terms?
10 A. As a military -- as a young man, as a young
11 military commander, I wasn't quite as aware of the
12 broad nature of what is going on in that there was not
13 so many significant examples that I was aware of that
14 showed a Muslim-Croat or Croat-Muslim aggression. They
15 seemed to be fairly in loose alliance. But on the
16 night of the 15th there were tangible -- there was
17 tangible evidence that clearly there was a Croat
18 aggression starting.
19 Q. Can you tell the Court where you went to on
20 the night of the 15th and what facts have enabled you
21 to come to that conclusion?
22 A. I was asked by my company commander to go to
23 a rendezvous point at a junction just short of a
24 village called Putis, which is just slightly beyond the
25 Busovaca junction. And I met him there with a Muslim
1 commander from Zenica, and we entered the village of
2 Putis because we had heard that there was some HVO in
3 the area.
4 We drove up into the village and there was a
5 series of firings -- firing taking place over our heads
6 until we got into the village. It then stopped, and we
7 then saw, through our night sights, soldiers in the
8 woodland, which we had our own guns trained on, but
9 they'd stopped firing so we were unable to take any
11 Q. It was possible for you to identify who, in
12 fact, these soldiers were that were firing towards you?
13 A. No, not at the time.
14 Q. You said that you were in the village with a
15 Muslim military commander; is that right?
16 A. That's right, yes.
17 Q. Is that area, the village of Putis, anywhere
18 near a Serb frontline or stronghold?
19 A. No. No, no.
20 Q. So is that what led you to your conclusion
21 that it was from the HVO?
22 A. Yes. I understood the village to be, from
23 charts, demographic charts in our operations room, that
24 this was a Muslim -- predominantly Muslim village, and,
25 therefore, it would be unusual for Muslims to be
1 shooting at themselves or their families or friends.
2 Q. Apart from this incident of the shooting, was
3 there anything else significant in that village in
4 relation to damage, or destruction or --
5 A. Not at that time, no. Not at that early
7 Q. And you -- how did that situation resolve
8 itself with the Muslim commander?
9 A. Our presence seemed to create a stalemate,
10 and, therefore, we withdrew. It was night and it was
11 difficult, obviously, to see, and, therefore, we
12 withdrew and recorded the incident as it happened and
13 left it at that.
14 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened on the
15 morning of the 16th of April? Was there anything of
16 significance that you heard of whilst you were at the
17 Vitez base that morning?
18 A. I had got up, and I was sitting in the
19 officer's mess waiting to be tasked as part of the A
20 Company 1 Cheshire, the battle group company that was
21 on duty. And as I had been attached to the Cheshires,
22 I had a different type of vehicle, I had a Scimitar
23 vehicle, which is a lot less armoured than the Warriors
24 which the Cheshires use, and, therefore, had been
25 instructed not to go into town where there were
1 reports -- I say "town" meaning Vitez -- there were
2 reports there that an action or some sort of aggression
3 was taking place with regard Croat and Muslim.
4 Therefore, I sat in the mess unable to go out, rather
5 frustrated. And a friend of mine, colleague, a
6 commander from the Cheshires, came back from Vitez
7 telling us that the area was generally a battle zone, a
8 lot of civilians and soldiers dead in the streets,
9 houses burning, explosions, gunfire. Generally an
10 unsavoury situation taking place in Vitez and the
11 surrounding areas of Vitez.
12 Q. Does this morning stick out in your mind
13 quite significantly compared to the rest of our tour?
14 A. Absolutely and very vividly. Up until that
15 point, the local area had pretty much been in some sort
16 of -- well, there was nothing significant that stood
17 out in that area up until this point. And the morning
18 of the 16th, with the background of the night of the
19 15th, there had seemed to be this sort of explosion of
20 activity between the Croats and the Muslims that
21 previously had not been there.
22 Q. You heard reports from a colleague of yours
23 as to what was occurring in Vitez. Did you
24 subsequently leave the base and go to the village of
1 A. It was not long after he told me about this
2 that I was then called to the operations room by the
3 Operations Officer of the Cheshire battle group, and
4 tasked to go to a small village called Ahmici, because
5 they understood that there was some action or activity
6 going on there that needed to be investigated and
7 reported upon, and, therefore, I was dispatched down to
8 the village with two of my Scimitars and one Warrior,
9 with an interpreter, a photographer and two Irish
10 ranger soldiers on board.
11 Q. Can you briefly explain to the Court the
12 difference between a Scimitar vehicle and a Warrior
13 vehicle and what they're used for?
14 A. A Scimitar vehicle is an 8 tonne light
15 aluminium vehicle, with three crew stations, which is
16 obviously used for reconnaissance, whereas a Warrior is
17 a 35 tonne, very heavily built infantry fighting
18 vehicle that can take three crew stations but also
19 seven infantry men in the back. They have the same
20 guns however.
21 Q. And can you describe the situation as you
22 drove towards the village of Ahmici, what was happening
23 on the way, and when you received your first
24 impressions of what was occurring or what had occurred
25 in the village of Ahmici.
1 A. From deploying from the base of Vitez and
2 taking the ring road around the edge of Vitez through
3 to Dubravica, it was quite clear from looking at the
4 general landscape that there was a series of plumes and
5 pillars of smoke coming from areas, group of houses,
6 none that I can specify, and also outlying villages,
7 and general battle noise, explosions and gunfire.
8 Q. I would like to show you now a copy of an
9 aerial photograph which is, in fact, a reduced copy of
10 the large photograph behind you which has been marked,
11 and if you can explain to the Court where, in fact, you
12 got your first impressions of what was occurring in
14 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked
15 Exhibit 229.
16 MR. SMITH:
17 Q. Major Woolley, is that area familiar to you?
18 A. Yes, it is. It's pretty much the area of
20 Q. You can see on that exhibit, so that's
21 Exhibit P229, you can see on that exhibit there is a
22 number of markings. Did you provide the information
23 that led to those markings being placed on the
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And if you can briefly explain to the Court
2 what the Roman numerals mean in terms of chronology?
3 A. From I to VI they signify significant places,
4 buildings and situations that I conducted -- where I
5 had conducted various actions throughout the day,
6 basically regarding first-aid of injured civilians.
7 Q. Now, on the day of the 16th of April, you
8 attended the village on one occasion, and then did you
9 attend there on a second occasion or near to it?
10 A. I attended the village in the morning for
11 about four hours, and then in the evening I was on the
12 main road of the village, in this area here.
13 Q. And in relation to the duration of your first
14 visit, can you till the Court which points relate to
15 your first visit?
16 A. Point I here -- do you want me to explain it
17 in detail?
18 Q. Not in detail, but just the points that
19 relate to --
20 A. Point I is a house where I got involved with
21 a casualty. Point II is a place where I stopped and
22 observed some soldiers. Point III is a house where I
23 dealt with another casualty. Point IV is a place where
24 I dealt with five casualties.
25 Q. Can you explain to the court Point VI?
1 A. Point VI is a place just off the main road
2 where I recovered five bodies, with the assistance of
3 another Lieutenant, in the evening of the 16th of
5 Q. And Points A and B relate to?
6 A. A and B are two houses which, at about 3.00
7 on the 16th, were very clearly and freshly on fire, two
8 civilian houses.
9 Q. If we can go back to the time that you first
10 approached the village. From about what location on
11 that map did you obtain your first impression of what
12 was occurring or what had occurred?
13 A. This road here is the road from Vitez, and
14 this road bends round into a small river or ravine. It
15 was on this high ground here that I, at first,
16 identified, from looking at my map relating to the
17 ground, that this was the village of Ahmici. And
18 looking over to my left, I could see that it was a
19 village that had plumes of smoke rising from it, and,
20 therefore, obviously had been in some kind of
22 Q. Could I ask you to mark that location with a
23 red texter that's in front of you, with an X?
24 A. (Marks).
25 Q. Was there anything further you can state to
1 the Court that will help them understand your first
2 impressions? You mentioned plumes of smoke rising from
4 A. Yes. As I approached the turnoff to the
5 village -- sorry, the turn into the village, generally
6 speaking there was -- the area was deserted. There was
7 sporadic gunfire, the odd explosion, houses alight and
8 mainly smoking, which generally told me that there had
9 been some sort of destruction, whether military or not,
10 and I was unaware at this point, but probably.
11 Q. And at about what time did you obtain your
12 first impression? What time did you arrive in the
14 A. It was about 11.00 in the morning.
15 Q. And what was your view as to what was
16 occurring or what had occurred? What was the
17 impression that you got?
18 A. I did not adopt an impression until I
19 actually -- I was under the impression that there had
20 been some action and some destruction, but I didn't
21 adopt a particular impression with regard to any ethnic
22 grouping until I spoke to a woman in the village.
23 Q. You said the village was deserted when you
24 arrived. Can you explain how this woman approached you
25 when you first arrived in the village?
1 A. As I approached the village along this small
2 track, or actually driving through the village or the
3 first part of the village. I got to this point here on
4 the track, and had my three vehicles, and I had a woman
5 and a couple of people behind her beckon --
6 particularly the woman, beckon me from behind -- or,
7 shall I say, from the archway of her door to come and
8 speak to her. She was reluctant to take -- to remove
9 herself from the cover that the door provided her.
10 Therefore, because I was unaware of what she was trying
11 to tell me, I took the prudent measure of going to talk
12 to her in case it was an ambush or a mine up ahead that
13 I was unaware of.
14 Q. And the house that she came from was the
15 house marked with the circle with the 14 next to it; is
16 that correct?
17 A. That's correct, yes.
18 Q. That's the house near the lower mosque?
19 A. That's right, yes.
20 Q. Looking at these two exhibits that I produced
21 to you now, P81 and P79, I ask they be produced to
22 him. Can you tell the Court who, in fact, is in those
23 exhibits? I think that may be the wrong exhibit. P79
24 and P81.
25 If you can look at Exhibit P81. You
1 mentioned that this woman beckoned you and you attended
2 at the house. With the use of that exhibit, can you
3 explain to the Court what happened inside that house,
4 what you did and what you saw?
5 A. I spoke to the woman. I had an interpreter
6 with me at the time, and you can see the interpreter on
7 the left-hand side of the picture. We went inside the
8 house and she, the woman who you can see here in the
9 picture, showed me her friend or relative, I am not
10 aware of who he was, the man in the centre here, who
11 was injured on the bed -- shall I say the sofa.
12 This is the house, house 14, in question.
13 This is the woman who beckoned me. And the man had
14 received a gun-shot wound to the back, which I
15 discovered when I removed a jersey -- sorry, removed
16 his jersey up his back and saw an entrance and an exit
17 wound, and what I believe the round had gone into his
18 elbow, causing him basically two injuries from the same
19 bullet. No dressings had been placed on him, and,
20 therefore, I took out a field dressing, which you can
21 see in the exhibit, and placed one on his elbow and one
22 around his waist and his back.
23 Q. Was the man saying anything to the
25 A. Not particularly. He was in a lot of pain.
1 I can't remember him actually saying anything
2 specifically, but he was in a lot of pain, moaning a
4 Q. Can you describe the clothing the man was
6 A. He was wearing a jersey. You can see in the
7 picture a diamond-patterned jersey.
8 Q. And what was the result of your first aid?
9 What did you --
10 A. Well, it was clear from -- that the injury --
11 he'd been bleeding, and they had not made much of
12 attempt to stem the bleeding. And having looked at the
13 sofa which was saturated with a lot of his blood, quite
14 a lot, I would say he'd been there a few hours, also,
15 which the nature of the blood, the darkness of a lot of
16 the blood which had congealed, we, therefore, placed,
17 first of all, a dressing on his elbow, and then put a
18 dressing around his back.
19 Q. And what was the general atmosphere in the
20 house like at that time, what was the mood?
21 A. One of shock and panic and fear. And in the
22 back of the house there was another room where the
23 majority of the family, mainly women, old ladies and
24 some children, were hiding, and were quite clearly in
25 shock and were very scared, and really didn't come out,
1 but you can see in this picture a couple of the elder
2 members of the family who had.
3 Q. And looking at the other exhibit, P79. Is it
4 P79, if I can ask the usher? You're looking at P79.
5 That further describes the scene; is that correct?
6 A. That's correct, yes. This is one of my
7 soldiers, and as you can see we have a dressing around
8 the waist of the injured man.
9 Q. And what subsequently happened to the injured
10 man? Was he taken away or did you leave him at --
11 A. We attempted to put a drip in him but
12 failed. We couldn't get a vein, he was quite cold,
13 having lost a lot of blood. And we were focusing too
14 much on one incident, where I had not conducted a full
15 clearance or reconnaissance of the village, and,
16 therefore, having done probably as much as we could for
17 him, I felt it necessary to push on up to the village
18 to ensure our own safety rather than put ourselves in
20 Q. And what was the expectation of you in
21 relation to you attending the village -- in relation to
22 you attending the village regarding the UNPROFOR base?
23 A. The expectation or the task I was given was
24 simply to observe and report on the conditions and the
25 activities in the village, but it was only through, I
1 suppose, a human conscience that we get involved in
2 first-aid and probably took out focus off the overall
3 task, which was just reporting the incident.
4 Q. And you drove up the village, is that
5 correct, up the main road of the village?
6 A. That's right, yes.
7 Q. And can you explain to the Court, using the
8 exhibit, the aerial map, where in fact you went?
9 A. From the first house, as I've already just
10 mentioned, 14, we then drove up the village, which is
11 generally a northerly direction along here, to this
12 area, which was not actually there at the time, it was
13 a lot narrower, and then along up the track heading
14 roughly north-east to Point II where there's a fork in
15 the track and a tarmac clearing where we could turn
16 the vehicle, and that was the limit which I explored it
18 Q. You mentioned that that was an area that is
19 on the aerial photograph that is not -- was not in that
20 state as it appears in the aerial photograph back in
21 1993. Is that that white patch in the middle of the
22 aerial photograph?
23 A. That's correct. That's now been bulldozed.
24 Q. What type of area was it, if you remember?
25 A. It was a similar sort of area, but it was
1 just not as large. It was a small tarmaced area and
2 it's now been increased by, I imagine, two or three
4 Q. As you went up towards the location at the
5 top of the village, location II, can you tell the Court
6 whether your first impressions as to what you believed
7 had occurred was still the same or had they changed by
8 the time you got to the top of the village?
9 A. My opinions weren't changing at that point,
10 because I'd spoken to the Muslim lady in this Muslim
11 village, and from what she told me and from what I saw
12 myself, it was quite clear that there had been a Croat
13 offensive in the early morning, about 6.00, and that
14 there were many injured civilians, and some dead ones
15 as well, and that's the only evidence I had of injured
16 civilians and burning civilian houses.
17 Q. And from the route you took to the top of the
18 village, can you explain to the Court the amount of
19 damage, if any, that you saw within that village?
20 A. Yes. Houses were burning. Probably I'd say
21 in the region of 20 per cent of the houses appeared to
22 be burning -- or, sorry, were burning. It appeared to
23 be about 20 per cent. And the road and the area was
24 deserted to, my view anyway.
25 Q. In terms of that figure of 20 per cent, what
1 was your field of view as you went up the road? Was it
2 to the left and right, or was it further than --
3 A. It was mainly to the right, which is mainly
4 to the north-east. There were a lot of houses that we
5 can see on this aerial photograph which, to me, were
6 then in dead ground. But from what I could see, there
7 was probably a larger percentage of 20 per cent, but
8 overall now, looking at aerial photograph, I would
9 assess it to be about 20 per cent.
10 Q. When you got to the top of the village, what
11 did you do, what did you see?
12 A. I went to the top of the village to make sure
13 that I had cleared this sort of whole area for my own
14 safety and also in order that I could report back to my
15 superiors and give a report on what I had seen. I
16 deemed the Point II on the map of the exhibit that we
17 can see as the necessary limit of what I had to move
19 When I got -- sorry.
20 Q. Excuse me for one moment. Did you see any
21 military activity as you attended to Point II at the
22 top of the village?
23 A. I saw no military activity up to Point II.
24 Just smoking houses, burning houses.
25 Q. What did you see at Point II?
1 A. At Point II, I stopped there for about ten
2 minutes because our attention was caught by soldiers in
3 the woodlands, which you can see here in this goose
4 egg, to the north-east. The woodland at the time was --
5 in April, it was -- there was no foliage, and therefore
6 it was quite easy to see five or six men, soldiers, who
7 were dressed in green, with no distinctive badge,
8 actually in the woods.
9 Q. Are you able to say from which military group
10 those soldiers belonged to, despite the fact that you
11 didn't see the badges on their sleeves?
12 A. Well, first of all, I knew they were soldiers
13 as they were carrying Kalashnikov rifles. I would say
14 that -- I say that they are HVO soldiers, and this
15 assumption was brought -- I concluded as a result of
16 their position. They were looking into the village.
17 The village is Muslim and they were on the periphery of
18 the village and they were looking into it. It would
19 seem that if you were a Muslim soldier, you would be
20 looking out in order to defend the village, and their
21 position was at the bottom of what I called a reverse
22 slope, this slope where the wooded feature is here
23 (indicating). So if the men were Muslim, they would
24 either need to be closer into the village in order to
25 defend it or need to be out, up on this high ground, in
1 order to gain a good field of view in case any further
2 aggression occurred from the Croats.
3 However, if a Croat force had come through
4 this village, clearing it, it could very easily have
5 formed up at the edge of the village in order to
6 observe prior to any further attack or to assess the
7 damage that it actually had achieved.
8 Q. So that it's on the record, the area which
9 you identified as five soldiers which you have
10 concluded were HVO soldiers, that's the area with the
11 oval circle above the Point II?
12 A. That's correct, this goose egg shape here.
13 Q. Everything that you saw that day or any
14 significant events that you saw that day, did you
15 record them in a diary?
16 A. Yes, I did. I had a diary that I filled out
17 every day, at the end of every day, throughout the
18 whole of my tour.
19 Q. In relation to producing a statement that was
20 requested of you by the Tribunal and coming to court
21 today, have you used that diary to refresh your memory
22 as to what you saw?
23 A. I have.
24 Q. And in relation to your conclusion about the
25 HVO soldiers being at the edge of the forest just above
1 Point II, was that fact recorded in your diary?
2 A. That was. On that day, it was recorded as
3 HVO soldiers on that point.
4 Q. At that stage, were you aware of a War Crimes
5 Tribunal in operation or going to be in operation?
6 A. No, I was not.
7 Q. You were at Point II for about ten minutes;
8 is that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And just to put the Court in some sort of
11 time frame, you said you arrived at the village at
12 11.30. How long were you in the first house for when
13 you were attending to the man with the gunshot wound?
14 A. Myself, probably between 30 and 45 minutes.
15 Q. And then you drove to the top of the
16 village. You were there for ten minutes?
17 A. Approximately.
18 Q. You observed the HVO soldiers, and then did
19 you go to another house?
20 A. I did. On my way up to Point II, I had
21 noticed on my right-hand side an elderly man beckoning
22 me from his doorway into his house, but I ignored him
23 because my task at the time was to ensure that the area
24 was clear and that it was safe for my own men, and
25 therefore, I carried on to Point II. But on my return,
1 thinking my task done and that I had reported back what
2 I had seen with regard the destruction of civilian
3 houses and the one casualty we had seen so far, I then
4 came across the man again who was beckoning, I
5 submitted to, and jumped off my vehicle and entered his
7 Q. Did he explain to you, before you entered the
8 house, what he wanted you to do?
9 A. No, he didn't, no. But I could see from the
10 distress on his face and his gesticulations that he was
11 obviously in a state and that there was something very
13 Q. Apart from seeing this man beckoning you into
14 the house, was this the only person that you saw as you
15 drove from Point I, down by the lower mosque, to Point
16 II at the top of the village?
17 A. Yes, that I can recall.
18 Q. Looking at Prosecution Exhibit P222, I'll ask
19 you what that, in fact, is an exhibit of, but can you
20 explain to the Court what you saw inside the house and
21 what you did?
22 A. This is an area of the village where -- just
23 short of the house which you would see off to the left
24 of this breeze block building here, and this is one of
25 my vehicles covering the route downwards for our own
1 security, and this is an armoured ambulance which came
2 some time after because, if I explain what happened, I
3 went into the house that the man beckoned me into, and
4 lying on a makeshift stretcher, makeshift out of
5 clothes and two branches, was a person who was a
6 casualty, a large person, elderly, which I initially
7 believed to be a man, subsequently found to be a woman,
8 who had --
9 Q. Go on.
10 A. -- who had got an injury in the head. As I
11 went into the house and dealt with this casualty, I
12 took what was something like a towel, it was a towel, a
13 tea towel, from around her head to find an exposed
14 wound, a large wound at the top right rear of her head
15 which did not have any skull remaining but really just
16 had brain matter, blood and sinew and what I can only
17 describe as brain matter, having never seen anything
18 quite like this before.
19 Q. What did you do in relation to that wound?
20 A. Sorry, yes. I took the dirty, saturated
21 field dressing -- sorry, towel, off the women's head
22 and replaced it with a fresh field dressing around her
23 head. She was also suffering -- her breathing was very
24 weak and very shallow and very slow, and therefore, we
25 put a plastic airway to assist her breathing into her
1 mouth, which was quite a struggle. She had one eye
2 open, her right eye open, and her left eye was closed
3 with a lot of bruising, which I think was peripheral to
4 the main injury, and her jaw was very difficult to pry
5 open in order to get this airway in. We also attempted
6 to put a drip in her, but she was so cold and her veins
7 were so -- well, they were not obvious, they were very
8 further in her, that we couldn't get a drip in her.
9 Q. Apart from the elderly man and the woman that
10 you attended to, were there any other people inside
11 that house?
12 A. Not inside that house -- sorry. There was
13 the casualty, the woman, the man who was the husband,
14 and then there was a few other older men and women in
15 the house who were obviously distressed but were taking
16 cover by remaining in the house.
17 Q. I would ask that you look at Exhibits 215,
18 216, and 221, and I believe these will describe the
19 scene which you've just mentioned. Exhibit 215 first.
20 Can you explain what you see in that
21 photograph in relation to what you, in fact, did?
22 A. Okay. This is the woman on a makeshift
23 stretcher. We can see here the private soldier with
24 his hand over the airway to see whether she is
25 breathing or not. You can see the fresh field dressing
1 that I put around her head, and this is one of my
2 corporals who is medically trained to a higher level
3 than anybody else on the team.
4 Q. What is his name?
5 A. Lance Corporal Priestly. He was conducting
6 the majority of the first aid, and here is another
7 private soldier also in attendance.
8 Q. Looking at Exhibit 221; can you explain
9 what's happening in that scene?
10 A. This is the elderly man had who beckoned me.
11 This is me conducting some first aid. I think we were
12 supporting her head or finishing off the tying of the
13 field dressing. And this is the soldier, again, just
14 attending generally, and this is my interpreter, and
15 this is one of the other elderly occupants of the
16 house, and we are trying to assist her in her
18 Q. Looking at Exhibit 216, can you explain that
19 scene, please?
20 A. This is Ranger Farmer, the private soldier
21 just assisting the woman, having gotten the plastic
22 airway into her mouth and getting her breathing, and,
23 she, as you see, conscious, although I would describe
24 her as semiconscious, quite clearly badly injured, as I
25 say, in the top right-hand part of her head from what
1 I, with my limited experience, could identify as some
2 kind of individual shot, a gunshot wound, and nothing
3 else that I could imagine had caused this.
4 Q. I would like you to look at two further
5 photographs which are new exhibits, being marked 394
6 and 397. That's an internal marking.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The photographs are marked
8 230 and 231.
9 MR. SMITH:
10 Q. If you look at Exhibit 231 in a moment, can
11 you explain to the Court that scene?
12 A. Again, this is me here (indicating) just
13 attending generally to the first aid of the woman
14 having had the field dressing on her head. This is the
15 soldier again assisting, and clearly the interpreter
16 here was helping with the situation through his ability
17 to interpret the language, and one of the relatives or
18 friends in distress of the situation.
19 Q. Can you describe the atmosphere in that house
20 to the Court? What was the mood?
21 A. The mood was shock, fear, panic. I think,
22 really, "shock" sums it up in that the family, up and
23 to that point, three hours ago, had their friend, their
24 relative, going about her normal daily business and had
25 then been shot in the head, putting her in the
1 situation we see her now.
2 MR. SMITH: I would ask that the usher
3 produce Prosecution Exhibit 230.
4 Q. And if you could explain that scene to the
5 court? Sorry, 231.
6 A. When we had done as much as we could in the
7 way of first aid in that we had dressed her head and
8 put an airway in her and failed to get a drip in her,
9 we then had called an ambulance from the UNPROFOR base
10 at Vitez which had come up and we had seen in one of
11 the earlier exhibits, an armoured ambulance, and we
12 were now placing the woman from her makeshift stretcher
13 onto a proper army stretcher that you can see here in
14 order that we can evacuate her from the area of Ahmici
15 to Travnik hospital.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm afraid we must break now
17 because we had a meeting at half past 12.00 with other
19 We will resume at 2.00.
20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. While we are
3 waiting again for the witness, may I suggest that if
4 the Prosecutor has some difficulty in handing in a list
5 of witnesses for next week, they may probably prepare a
6 list of those witnesses they intend to call, you intend
7 to call; however, not in the right order, the order may
8 be sorted out maybe on Monday, so that Defence counsel,
9 in any case, know who is going to be called next week
10 and they can prepare over the weekend. We discussed
11 this matter at lunchtime and we thought that probably
12 Defence counsel may wish to go back to their own
13 country or, anyway, take some time off.
14 (The witness entered court)
15 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Mr. President. During the
16 lunch break, we have established a list of the
17 witnesses. We will hand it over to Defence counsel
18 this afternoon, but, of course, we may change the order
19 of appearance of these witnesses.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Smith?
21 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Welcome back, Major Woolley. I hope you had
23 an enjoyable lunch.
24 A. Thank you.
25 Q. Where we left off earlier, you visited the
1 village of Ahmici, and you went to the house, the first
2 house, where a man was shot, and then you stated that
3 you went up to the end of the village and had a look
4 around and saw what you thought to be HVO soldiers.
5 Then you went down to another house, a house where
6 there was a woman that was shot in her head. We
7 started to go through a few photographs, and you were
8 describing what the atmosphere was like in that
9 particular house.
10 At that second house that you went to, can
11 you explain to the Court about how long you were there?
12 A. I would say up to an hour.
13 Q. What was the result of that incident? After
14 you had given her some first aid, what did you decide
15 to do and what happened at that point?
16 A. Having given her first aid to our maximum
17 ability, we then had her casuvacced, casualty
18 evacuation, and we then gave a situation report of what
19 we had conducted and then decided to withdraw from
20 Ahmici back to Vitez.
21 Q. Before we move on from this house and
22 understand the route that you took down further down
23 the village and what happened to you after that, I
24 would like to show you two further exhibits which
25 haven't been tendered in evidence.
1 The first one is a copy of a house with a
2 vehicle in front of it which, in fact, Your Honours
3 have copies, the black and white copies that were given
4 previously, and the second one is of a destroyed house,
5 and I would like you to have a look at them, please?
6 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph with the
7 house, with the vehicle in front, will be Exhibit 232.
8 You have a black and white copy of that one. And the
9 other photograph, Exhibit 233, 2-3-3.
10 MR. SMITH:
11 Q. If I can ask the usher to show you the
12 Exhibit P232, the undestroyed house, and if you can
13 explain to the Court what that picture is of?
14 A. This is the house which we came across which,
15 on our way up to the top of the village, had the man
16 outside coaxing us to help him and who then we
17 subsequently helped. It had a number 43 outside the
18 doorway, and you can see of note is this Rayburn-type
19 cooker and the breeze block building on its left-hand
20 side, and here is one of our Warrior vehicles parked in
21 front of it.
22 Q. So the assistance that you and your
23 colleagues gave occurred just inside the front door of
24 that house?
25 A. Yeah, just to the right as you go inside the
1 front door. This is a photograph from the 16th of
3 MR. SMITH: Right. For Your Honours'
4 reference, that's the house marked 202.5 on this
5 witness's exhibit.
6 Q. If you look at P233, can you explain to the
7 Court what that is a picture of?
8 A. This is a photograph I took on the 26th of
9 April, having been sent back into Ahmici for subsequent
10 patrolling, and it's the same house as that in the
11 previous exhibit. This is the same doorway and this is
12 the room where we attended the woman's needs. You can
13 see again the Rayburn cooker and the breeze block
14 building on the left-hand side of the house, and the
15 fence as well is quite prominent.
16 Q. So that it is recorded in the transcript, can
17 you describe the damage to the house?
18 A. Well, clearly it had been set alight, either
19 by fire or some incendiary device, removing it of all
20 its timbers, leaving the brickwork. You can probably
21 just see beneath that branch the number 43, which
22 confirms, for the record, that it is actually the very
23 same house, although the other factors, like the cooker
24 and the walls and the wall here clearly also show that
25 that is the same house.
1 Q. So that house was destroyed between the 16th
2 and the 26th?
3 A. This house that the civilian woman lived in
4 was destroyed between the 16th and the 26th of April
5 for some extraordinary reason.
6 Q. This woman was taken away from the house, was
8 A. She was, yeah.
9 Q. Was she taken away in an ambulance?
10 A. In an armoured ambulance.
11 Q. Was she the only civilian that was taken away
12 in that ambulance?
13 A. That's right, yes, she was.
14 Q. After leaving that house, I think you said
15 you stayed at that house for approximately an hour?
16 A. About an hour, yeah.
17 Q. Where did you go from there?
18 A. I then drove back down the road from which we
19 had come up on our way out of Ahmici, but, of course, I
20 only travelled some 300 or 400 metres before I came
21 across another house where a woman coaxed me to help
23 MR. SMITH: I would ask that Exhibit 229, the
24 aerial photograph, be placed on the ELMO, please.
25 Q. With a pencil, could you briefly describe the
1 route you took from the house where the woman was shot
2 or where the injury was to where you went?
3 A. This is the house where the woman was shot,
4 and we then drove back down this narrow part of the
5 road past a very prominent religious building here onto
6 this slope here where, from the house marked IV, in
7 Roman numerals, a woman coaxed me from sort of
8 the leeside of the building, that is, the sort of
9 northern side of it, to come and assist her.
10 Q. I think I've just misled you a little bit a
11 moment ago. It's not the house where the woman was
12 shot, it was the house where you attended to the woman
13 with the injury; is that correct?
14 A. Sorry.
15 Q. House number 202.5.
16 A. 202.5 is the house where the woman had been
17 shot in the head, the elderly woman, yes.
18 Q. You don't know whether the woman was, in
19 fact, shot?
20 A. Well, I think that the injuries were
21 consistent with something like a gunshot.
22 Q. I think I've --
23 A. I'm sorry.
24 MR. SMITH: I think I've led this
1 Q. You don't know where, in fact, she received
2 the gunshot wound?
3 A. I subsequently heard that she had received
4 the gunshot down the hill, somewhere down the hill, and
5 she had been carried by her family or friends up the
6 hill to her house where she was then under cover.
7 Q. Thank you. When you arrived at this next
8 house, the house marked 70 on the aerial photograph,
9 can you explain what the woman -- a woman said to you
10 and what you did after that?
11 A. Yeah. Her gestures really said it all in
12 that she needed help quite urgently, and the background
13 of our two previous incidents led me just to follow her
14 and go into the back of the house, if you like, the
15 cellar of the house, where the group of people in the
16 cellar led me to just continue my actions; in other
17 words, I didn't actually necessarily have a
18 conversation with her, neither personally or with any
19 interpreter, because the injured people in the back of
20 the house led me to continue my actions.
21 Q. About how many people were in that cellar and
22 what was the atmosphere like in the --
23 A. The cellar was very dark; there was no
24 lighting. There was an awful smell generally of, I
25 suppose, wounds, and there was also smoke from people
1 smoking. There were crying children, there was a woman
2 breast-feeding, there were elderly people, children,
3 and women, and there was about up to 30 people probably
4 in the cellar, five of whom had significant injuries.
5 Q. Did you do anything about those wounds?
6 A. Yes. The one nearest the door was a small
7 girl who I believe was about 12 or 13 years old. She
8 had injuries on her left leg, on the lower limb of her
9 left leg, and an injury on the inside of her thigh, on
10 her right thigh, which again I -- were consistent with
11 some sort of, well, an entry wound that I thought was
12 either a low calibre, slow calibre bullet or maybe
13 shrapnel, and we then carried out some first aid of the
14 left lower limb and the right thigh, the inner thigh.
15 Q. Did you record that injury in your diary?
16 A. Yes. I talked about the injuries.
17 Q. You mentioned the injury of the young girl.
18 Can you explain the other injuries of the others?
19 A. Yes. The other one was in the far left-hand
20 corner of the cellar, it was an elderly gentleman, and
21 he, when we tried to move him -- well, he was screaming
22 because -- whenever we tried to move him because of the
23 pain, but it was something like a pelvis or a hip
24 injury, somewhere in his midriff that he was injured
25 either through shrapnel or more probably gunshot
2 Q. What about the other three?
3 A. The other -- the third man -- sorry, the
4 third was a man, an elderly man who had got a gunshot
5 wound to the -- if I recall correctly, the left
6 shoulder, up in this sort of region here (indicating),
7 and those three were the most significant, and
8 therefore we evacuated them in the back of the Warrior,
9 which has got space for infantry personnel.
10 There were two others, and I think they were
11 both men, who had other sort of smaller injuries. We
12 didn't manage to evacuate them in the end.
13 Q. Did you record that in your diary as well?
14 A. Yeah, I talked about five people being
15 significantly injured from this cellar.
16 Q. Can you explain to the Court the average age
17 of these men and what they were wearing?
18 A. They were wearing civilian clothing, they
19 were anywhere between maybe 45 and 65 years old. There
20 was not many men anyway, but they were of that age.
21 The rest were women and children and elderly women as
22 well, and, you know, even children or, should I say,
23 babies of breast-feeding age. All very scared, all
24 very shocked in this dingy, dark cellar where they were
25 taking cover.
1 Q. Did any of the men that you saw, these men
2 that were injured, did any of them have weapons?
3 A. Not in the cellar, no, no.
4 Q. About how long did it take you to tend to all
5 of these injuries?
6 A. Probably about a further hour.
7 Q. Was any drug given to any of these men?
8 A. Yes. The man in the -- the second man I
9 talked about who had the hip-type injury or the midriff
10 injury, we gave him morphine in his thigh because he
11 was in such pain that when we tried to evacuate him or
12 move him, he just yelped and screamed, and therefore,
13 by administering some morphine, it enabled us to then
14 move him using a sleeping bag, one of our own, as a
15 stretcher, and we then put him in the back of the
17 Q. Three -- the most severe casualties went in
18 the Warrior and the other two stayed at the house; is
19 that correct?
20 A. That's correct, yes.
21 Q. I'd like to show you a photograph in relation
22 to this location -- or a few photographs, and would you
23 be able to describe that in relation to what you've
24 just described to the Court?
25 A. Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: The first photograph is
2 marked 234.
3 MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Can you try and relate that photograph to the
5 incident that you've just referred to and the aerial
6 photograph which you have provided the information?
7 A. Okay. In the foreground, you can see these
8 three white boxes. These are the periscopes of my own
9 scimitar vehicle, and I had climbed back onto the
10 vehicle -- having already been in the house, I was
11 climbing back on the vehicle in order to get some more
12 first aid kit. I then took the opportunity to take a
13 photograph as a record.
14 At that time, I had gone forward initially,
15 discovered this, and the Warrior, as we see in the
16 middle of the picture, followed me up. I called it up
17 because we needed some more first aid, as in first aid
18 kit, and here you can see two soldiers who are running
19 to the assistance. The house in question is to the
20 right of this fence, down a slope here, a grass -- a
21 hillside -- a slope, and we've come down the track from
22 House number 2 that we talked about up here.
23 Q. Could you relate that photograph to the
24 aerial photograph by just replacing the aerial onto the
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. And can you put the approximate location
3 where that photograph was taken?
4 A. Yeah. That is this house here (indicating).
5 The photograph was taken just on the -- on the slope
6 just off the bend here. Along the edge of that road is
7 where that concrete trellis fence is, and this is the
8 green slope I talked about here, and this is the house
9 where there was a cellar with these 30-odd occupants --
10 not occupants but injured civilians.
11 Q. For the transcript, you've pointed a location
12 on the main road, the main Ahmici road, in front of the
13 house marked number 70; is that right?
14 A. Sorry. I've -- yes, that's the house there
15 marked 70. Did I misunderstand your question?
16 Q. Your vehicle was parked in the vicinity --
17 A. It was parked, yes, exactly where that pencil
18 is pointing now.
19 MR. SMITH: Thank you. I'd ask that Exhibits
20 193, 74, 194 and 195 be produced to the witness?
21 I'd ask that the witness look at Exhibit 193
22 first. Thank you.
23 Q. Looking at Exhibit 193, can you explain to
24 the Court what this picture is of?
25 A. This is of the back of the house. The
1 previous picture had been taken up here on the
2 hillside, and this is -- because we had no further
3 ambulance, the ambulance had been tasked and gone, we
4 then used the back of the Warrior personnel carrier to
5 take these three, the most significantly injured
6 people, and put them in the back. So it's in the back
7 of this house on this, if you like, below-ground-level
8 cellar that all this activity took place.
9 Q. Looking at Exhibit number 74, can you
10 describe that, please?
11 A. This is the girl who had the two injuries I
12 talked about, the inner thigh -- I think you can see
13 just here the injury on the inner thigh where we've
14 bandaged it, and she had an injury on her left leg.
15 She, as you can see by her face, is in quite a lot of
16 distress. I think she was about 12 or 13 years old.
17 Other members of the family, and as you can see,
18 civilians, elderly people, women, and children. This
19 is Lance Corporal Priestly who is giving her some
20 bandages, some civilian here giving some light to the
21 situation, our interpreter who is helping console the
22 girl, and in the background here is the man that had
23 the injury around the waist. Because of our limited
24 resources, we were still dealing with the girl who
25 seemed to be most severely injured. This injury, when
1 Lance Corporal Priestly and I arrived, was still
2 bleeding. This man, we then subsequently attended to
3 and gave him the morphine in order to move him.
4 Q. And the other men that you assisted, the
5 other men with injuries, do they appear in that
7 A. I can't see them. There was a man toward --
8 in this direction here sitting to his right, to this
9 man's right-hand side, but I can't see him in that
11 Q. In any event, at this location, I think you
12 mentioned there are about 30 people.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Is that in the cellar or in and about, behind
15 the cellar?
16 A. That was in the cellar initially. They were
17 all cowering from what had been taking place, but, of
18 course, our arrival with three armoured vehicles, with
19 our 30-millimetre guns, I'm sure provided them with a
20 degree of confidence, in that they then, a few of them,
21 came out of the back of the cellar. Those sort of more
22 -- slightly younger adults had the confidence to come
23 out and assist and to see what was going on.
24 Q. If you can just briefly describe the
25 atmosphere in this cellar?
1 A. Dark, dingy, smoky, frightened people crying,
2 babies crying, people shaking, elderly people shocked,
3 I think disbelief at what had happened with their
4 friends and family, you know, injured in front of
5 them. Helpless is probably the thing, helpless, until
6 we arrived and evacuated them.
7 Q. Looking at Exhibit 194, I think you appear in
8 that exhibit.
9 A. Yes. That's me here. I think I had just
10 come from out of the cellar, and I think we're all
11 looking at one of the injured people being removed and
12 put in the back of the Warrior.
13 Q. And looking at Exhibit 195?
14 A. This is the young girl on this mattress,
15 makeshift stretcher, being placed into the back of the
16 Warrior, which had reversed up to the house, and as you
17 can see, the people, women, and probably slightly
18 elderly men had had the confidence to come out and
19 watch what was going on to their family and friends.
20 Q. And the Warrior left with the three most
21 serious casualties?
22 A. And Lance Corporal Priestly went with them in
23 order to continue his attendance.
24 Q. If you can place the -- if I can ask the
25 usher to place the aerial exhibit on the projector?
1 Can you tell the Court what you did once you
2 left this house?
3 A. Once we had dispatched the Warrior fighting
4 vehicle with the three injured people, I then returned
5 from the house here to the road here. In fact, further
6 down the road, about 200 metres, my two scimitars had
7 moved further down to spread out in order that they
8 protect themselves a little bit better. We, having
9 finished our job, having given some army rations to the
10 remaining people in the cellar, then decided that we
11 had done as much as we could, and therefore we returned
12 to the vehicles.
13 However, at that time, there had been a --
14 this is about quarter to 3.00, 2.45, there had been
15 sort of an increase in the intensity of peripheral
16 gunfire and explosions, and most significantly was, at
17 this time, this house with the arrow and the letter "A"
18 which was fully and freshly ablaze, and because of the
19 surrounding danger, the four of us, and that is the two
20 private soldiers I've discussed and the interpreter and
21 myself, if you like, manoeuvred back in pairs to the
22 vehicles in order to ensure maximum cover and, in fact,
23 such was my awareness of this danger that I hid behind
24 a wall, reluctant to expose myself to any gunfire, and
25 I called or I shouted to the driver of my scimitar
1 vehicle to reverse up and collect us so that we did not
2 have to expose ourselves. But because he had his
3 engine running, he was unable to hear us, and
4 therefore, I dashed about 50 yards, 30, 40, 50 yards,
5 down to the vehicle and jumped in, and then we reversed
6 up and picked the remaining three men. So there was
7 five of us in a turret that was designed for two people
8 taking shelter in this environment which had a burning
9 house and gunfire and what have you.
10 Q. You talk about peripheral gunfire. When you
11 say "peripheral," where do you mean? Outside of the
12 village? Within the village?
13 A. I mean possibly in the village, outside the
14 village as well, but gunfire that was 200 metres or
15 more away. A lot of time the gunfire can echo around
16 buildings in built-up areas, but -- and also in this
17 slightly valley-type area.
18 Q. You said that when you came out of the house,
19 the vehicles, your vehicles had moved down the road
20 somewhat, and you had to attract their attention to try
21 and take cover in the vehicles. About how long did
22 that take before you were in a more protected position
23 within the vehicle?
24 A. About three, three or four minutes.
25 Q. Was there a problem with one of the vehicles?
1 A. Subsequently. The vehicle that I had got
2 into with the four men was fine and reversed in order
3 to pick them up, but the vehicle in front had some fuel
4 carburettor problem, probably as a result of sitting on
5 the slope for a long time, and it then broke down, it
6 was unable to start; and sitting in the vehicle, we
7 then called for a recovery vehicle to come and collect
8 the scimitar.
9 Q. The two vehicles had to stay together; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes. Most of the time they were about a
12 hundred yards apart.
13 Q. And in relation to the map, where were those
14 vehicles whilst you were waiting for assistance with
15 the breakdown?
16 A. For the majority of the time I was sitting in
17 a vehicle just slightly astride the A pointer. In
18 other words, the house ablaze. I've got photographs of
19 me sitting next to a coach, which is astride this house
20 which is ablaze.
21 Q. During that time did you see another house on
22 fire? A house or another building?
23 A. There were lots of houses that were smoking
24 as a result of being on fire previously, but this was
25 the most significant which caught my attention. It
1 could not have done anything other than catch my
2 attention as I sat 20 or 30 yards from it.
3 Q. And where was this second house --
4 A. The second house is --
5 Q. -- on that particular map?
6 A. -- is on the pointer with the mark B. The
7 picture that I have of this, it was taken when we were
8 recovered and we made our way down the village, and it
9 was of a house that had been on fire, its remaining
10 timbers blackened by the fire and smoke coming from
11 it. And adjacent to it was a barn, which was fully
12 ablaze. And this is at about 3.00.
13 The most significant thing is that this
14 wooden barn was freshly ablaze, which suggested to me
15 it had only just been set fire to at about 3.00,
16 because wooden barns don't burn for very long.
17 Q. Than wooden barn is at location about B?
18 A. B, yes.
19 Q. And the other house that was on fire was in
20 location A?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. In terms of the state of destruction of the
23 other house or the state of the fire, can you give an
24 estimate of when that would have been set alight?
25 A. Well, again, the wood is the bit that burns,
1 and the roof, the timbers, are the bits that burn, and
2 they burn, from my experience, of which I have got
3 quite a bit now, quite quickly. And within the space
4 of my wait in the vehicle, at that point, which was
5 about 40 minutes, the house had been fully ablaze and
6 had burnt out, completely gutting it of its floor, and
7 timbers and roof. The roof had fallen in.
8 Q. I would now like to show you some
9 photographs, four photographs, of this particular
10 incident. And can you explain to the court how, in
11 fact, you came into possession of these photographs?
12 How is it that you can provide these to us? Perhaps if
13 you can explain to the Court how you took these
15 A. I took them with my own camera on the day in
16 order to keep a log and a record of the situation.
17 Q. And other photographs you are referring to in
18 your evidence generally, where would they have come
20 A. All the photographs I am aware of were either
21 mine or Corporal Penfound, who was the military
22 photographer whom I went into the village with, and I
23 gave my camera to him to take these pictures.
24 Q. He followed your route through the village?
25 A. That's right. Up until the point when he
1 went back with the Warrior.
2 Q. That's with the three injured people?
3 A. Yes, with the three injured people.
4 Q. Your Honours, as these photographs form a
5 series with other photographs that have been tendered
6 in evidence, I would ask for Exhibit number 137 and
8 Major Woolley, if once the other two exhibits
9 are brought to you, if you could put them in some sort
10 of chronological order as events occurred for you, and
11 then we'll describe each photograph in detail.
12 A. This is the house which had the arrow with
13 the A pointing to next to the coach I was talking
14 about. And this is the hatch of my own vehicle, and
15 you can see another vehicle behind here. The house
16 quite clearly alight. This is at about 3.00. In the
17 distance you can see what I believe is that religious
18 building I pointed out earlier.
19 Q. If you can turn the exhibit over and just
20 state the exhibit number?
21 A. 237.
22 Q. If you could put the aerial exhibit back on
23 the ELMO and relate, again, where that house is?
24 A. Where the arrow A points is the house and
25 just next to it is the track.
1 Q. And that's the house marked -- pointing --
2 A. To A (indicating).
3 Q. And for the record, that's Exhibit P229. And
4 the next photograph. If you can look at the rear
5 and state the exhibit number as well.
6 A. It's 137. This is a better shot of the
7 house. I think we can see quite clearly how the house
8 is ablaze, the roof is falling in and the timbers are
10 Q. Was that photograph taken whilst you were
12 A. That is right, yes.
13 Q. Show the next exhibit.
14 A. Exhibit 236. As I've stated, I was only
15 sitting here for about half an hour, and within that
16 time, this is all pivoting around 3.00, the house quite
17 clearly has burnt out, pretty much burnt out.
18 Q. When did you see the house first ablaze?
19 You've obviously seen it whilst the fire was in full
20 force. Did you see the beginning of that fire?
21 A. I didn't see it being set fire to, but as we
22 advanced across the field it was quite clearly ablaze.
23 And, in fact, I apologise, but I've put this exhibit
24 slightly out of order, because you can see that this is
25 before the house was ablaze. At this point I'm on the
1 vehicle most upward -- most uphill, and I had swapped
2 vehicles when the other vehicle was broken down. The
3 previous pictures you saw were when I was just below
4 this bus, and you can see here the smoke from the house
5 quite clearly.
6 This trellis type concrete fence is the fence
7 that I took cover behind. You can't see it here on the
8 picture. And at that point my vehicle that I'm sitting
9 on now was here and had reversed up with me in order
10 that we picked up the other chaps.
11 Q. And the house that was set alight is to the
12 right of the picture, behind that house you see in the
14 A. That's right. It's just behind here, yeah.
15 Q. So the photographs that have been shown by
16 yourself are photographs taken from the opposite
17 direction --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- facing up the hill?
20 A. Yes. I'm sorry.
21 Q. And in the background --
22 A. Sorry.
23 Q. If you can replace that exhibit. In the
24 background to the left, that white structure.
25 A. That's the minaret of Ahmici, still standing
1 on the 16th.
2 Q. This is about 3.00 in the afternoon?
3 A. About 3.00.
4 Q. And if you can state the number of that
6 A. 235.
7 Q. If you can show the next photograph.
8 A. This is Exhibit 238. This is from what I
9 believe is roughly the same position. So to the right
10 of this tree we have -- or a bit further up from this
11 tree we have the house that I talked about already on
12 the A pointer. In the distance I can obviously see
13 another light alight, which is on the pointer B, the
14 second house, a white house, very significant -- very
15 clearly you can see a grey drainpipe here, ablaze.
16 That is about it, I think, for that.
17 Q. Are you driving past this house --
18 A. I believe this is --
19 Q. -- when that was taken or static?
20 A. I believe this was static at this point. I
21 don't believe I took any pictures while moving.
22 Q. You've stated the exhibit number for that?
23 A. Yes. That was 238. Exhibit number 134.
24 This is the same house, a white house, and you can see
25 this grey drainpipe again. Burnt out now. This is all
1 within, as I say, 30 to 45 minutes, and yet this barn
2 to the left-hand side is quite clearly ablaze, freshly
4 The reason why I took this picture was
5 because here, on the front doorstep, is a man who
6 appeared to be dead. Well, he was very static anyway,
7 and he'd either had a nasty fall on the steps or had
8 been shot as he exited the house.
9 Q. It's not so clear from the photograph that
10 that is, in fact, a man. Did you have a better view
11 when you were there?
12 A. Well, no better view than that other than the
13 zoom of my the camera, but on the original photograph
14 it's quite clear a man has been killed somehow on the
16 Q. I think there's another exhibit that we
17 haven't looked at.
18 A. I think that's it.
19 Q. Do you have exhibit -- I asked for Exhibit
21 A. Yes. This is, again -- we've obviously moved
22 about 30 metres down the road. This is my vehicle
23 hatch, and the house is burnt out and the barn is still
24 ablaze but shot as significant as it was. And you can
25 see the cars showing it was the same house.
1 Q. Did you see any soldiers in and about that
2 area where those houses were alight?
3 A. There were no soldiers around there.
4 Q. Where did you go from there? After you saw
5 this burning barn, where did you head?
6 A. Soon after this point we were recovered by
7 the engineers who then took us back to Vitez to recover
8 the vehicle.
9 Q. Whilst you were in Ahmici, you mentioned in a
10 statement that you provided to the Tribunal that you
11 saw, I think, some men with weapons, which you believed
12 to be Muslim. You haven't mentioned them in your
13 testimony. Where did you see -- or did you see any
14 Muslim men with any weapons, and if you did, where did
15 you see them?
16 A. The only men who were Muslim who had weapons,
17 and I know that they were Muslim because they were
18 talking to the Muslim lady who -- and this is the first
19 incident I'm talking about with the injured man, were
20 about four men who were middle-aged, and a couple who
21 were reasonably young, 25 or 6, who were not
22 particularly dressed as soldiers, although I understand
23 that not all soldiers out there were dressed in
24 uniform, and they carried Kalashnikov rifles.
25 MR. SMITH: I'd like to show you a
1 photograph, and can you tell the Court what this is a
2 photograph of?
3 We have no photocopies of this, but we can
4 supply them on the break. Black and white for today.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 239.
6 A. Yes. If we go back to about 11.00 in the
7 morning, not long after I'd arrived, that is the woman
8 you may recall who last an injured friend or relative
9 in the house. At this point, obviously with my
10 interpreter, with the woman we were discussing issues,
11 and you can see here two young men who have got rifles,
12 who could have been soldiers, although I believe they
13 were sort of a local defence sort of outfit, and
14 another man here, soldier, and one here. And all
15 around that house there were about five men who I would
16 describe as of fighting age.
17 And at this time, you see this woodpile here,
18 there was a small outhouse here, and the two private
19 soldiers, when I was talking here, were then carrying
20 over dead bodies of old men from the front fields just
21 at the T-junction of the main road and delivered them
22 to the outhouse. And I asked what was wrong with
23 them. This is right at the start. I asked, "What is
24 wrong with them?" And he said, "These are dead," which
25 is a small shock.
1 Q. Are you saying dead bodies? Are you saying
2 two or are you saying more than that?
3 A. I remember seeing two.
4 Q. And these particular people, Muslims with
5 weapons, were they picking those dead bodies up?
6 A. No, they hadn't bothered. I don't know why.
7 I was distracted by the incident and the woman, and as
8 I was talking, my soldiers had taken it on themselves,
9 I don't know why, but they ended up picking these two
10 bodies up and put them over by the barn.
11 Q. And what did these men in the photograph,
12 with rifles, appear to be doing?
13 A. I think they'd been the local defence of the
14 village, and I don't know whether they'd come there as
15 a result of the action in the morning at about 6.00, or
16 whether they had been there, but if there had been
17 action of a military action rather than a civilian
18 slaughter, then I assume they would have been -- while
19 defending their friends and relatives they would have
20 probably been injured or killed themselves.
21 Q. And apart from that location, and I think the
22 location you're referring to is marked by number 1 on
23 the map, with the house ringed with the 14 numeral next
24 to it, that is the house where you saw these --
25 A. That's the very house, yeah, there
2 Q. And this is the house where the man was
3 assisted because he had a gun-shot wound to his back?
4 A. To his back and arm, yes.
5 Q. Are there any other locations that you saw
6 Muslim men with weapons, apart from this particular
8 A. This is the only one.
9 Q. What was your impression when you left the
10 village? And this might tie into your impression when
11 you arrived. Did you feel that an action had taken
12 place or were you caught in the middle of one? Can you
13 give the Court some understanding of when the tempo of
14 this action, whatever it was, occurred to cause the
15 damage that you've referred to, the 20 per cent of
16 houses you saw burnt within your field of view along
17 side of the road, what was your impression about when
18 that, in fact, occurred? Do you have one?
19 A. My impression was based, after my arrival, on
20 talking to the woman, and on seeing the injured man and
21 by the nature of his wound in his back, the quantity of
22 blood on the sofa, and the congealed nature of the
23 blood and the abating of the bleeding, although not
24 completely, that he'd probably been there for about
25 three hours, four hours. No less than two, no more
1 than four. Basically these were the things that made
2 me believe -- sort of put a time on it, but also the
3 woman had commented that it was a morning offensive.
4 And most deliberate offensives conducted by military
5 men are done at dawn, because that's the time when the
6 people are at least alertness, probably in their beds.
7 Q. So in relation to what the woman told you,
8 was that consistent with what you saw?
9 A. Exactly.
10 Q. And you headed back to the Vitez base; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you were in the village for about three
14 or four hours; is that correct?
15 A. Four hours.
16 Q. And you mentioned there was an increase in
17 gunfire, if not peripheral gunfire, when you were
18 travelling the route or waiting for the vehicle, the
19 recovery vehicle, to fix up one of the vehicles that
20 had broken down. What about the rest of the four
21 hours? What sort of gunfire was heard, if any, during
22 that time?
23 A. Again, I'll describe it as peripheral in that
24 I was aware that there was gunfire going on. Whether
25 that was nearby or echoing gunfire I could not specify,
1 but certainly there was gunfire in and around the
2 periphery of the area. But really because of the
3 nature of what we came across, I was more focused on
4 the problem there, and this, I suppose, distracted me
5 from other concerns like the gunfire.
6 Q. But there wasn't any sort of offensive
7 occurring whilst in front of you or near you whilst you
8 were in the village?
9 A. There was no offensive. The only thing that
10 made me believe that some fresh action of sorts had
11 taken place was that a wooden barn and a house -- and,
12 in fact, two houses, were freshly ablaze. They were
13 not ablaze when I entered the village at 11.00, but
14 they were ablaze at 3.00 and burnt out quite quickly.
15 So obviously something had taken place from the sort of
16 western -- north-western edge of the village. Maybe
17 using an approach from the hillside towards further up
18 the hill, or maybe down towards Santici, which is a
19 Croat village.
20 Q. Thank you. You went back to the Vitez base
21 and then at some later time did you re-attend the
22 village or near to the village?
23 A. Yes, we then -- we went back to reorganise
24 ourselves and to change the vehicle that had broken
25 down, and then I was tasked to join Lieutenant Dooley
1 who had spent his afternoon recovering dead bodies, and
2 I assisted him later at about 6.00 in the evening.
3 Q. And that's what he told you he had been
5 A. Yes. He'd been doing it since about 12.00 or
6 about midday.
7 Q. And you met him, and what time did you --
8 sorry, I might have missed that, but what time were you
9 back at the village, outside the village?
10 A. At about 6.30. We rendezvoused at Dubravica,
11 at the junction, at about 6.00, and we must have been
12 on the main road, on this road along here, there was
13 four Warrior vehicles and two of my Scimitars, at about
15 Q. Did you see anything of significance when you
16 arrived there, in relation to casualties?
17 A. Yes. You'll see the figure 6 with a circle
18 around it. This is an area of a field just on the
19 eastern edge of a house where there were five bodies,
20 civilian and elderly bodies, lying on the grass at what
21 appeared to be where they had fell whilst being shot.
22 In fact, they had several injuries to their bodies.
23 They had not just been shot once from the injuries that
24 I saw. And it was those five bodies that we were
25 tasked to recover.
1 So with four Warriors and with my two
2 Scimitars, we picketed this road to ensure our own
3 safety. Corporal Ramsden, my other Corporal, was at
4 the bottom by this cemetery here, and I placed myself
5 here at the top end by the junction of Ahmici, and the
6 four Warriors were placed along the road here to
7 provide security, so that the armoured ambulance could
8 reverse onto this field as close to the dead bodies as
9 possible in order to collect them and put them in the
10 back of the ambulance. And then our task really was to
11 remove them and take them to the edge of the village so
12 that if any Muslim people wanted to collect them they
13 could do more safely. That was the concept of what we
14 were up to.
15 Q. That circle with the 6 represents the place
16 that you feel that the bodies were located and
17 retrieved from?
18 A. Yeah. That's -- by the nature of how they
19 were lying, it appeared that they were lying where they
20 had fell whilst being shot.
21 Q. Now I produce a few exhibits to you that may
22 assist in describing this incident. They're Exhibits
23 53, 54, 55, 56 and 57.
24 If we can look at Exhibit 53 first, please.
25 A. This white block is the periscope of my
1 vehicle, and this is the field. As you can see, the
2 bodies are lying here. This is where the circle that's
3 drawn on the map with the mark 6 is. You can see in
4 the distance some of the smoking buildings of Ahmici.
5 This is the edge of Ahmici, and you can see the
6 destruction of some of these houses. This line along
7 here is the main road, which you can't obviously see,
8 but clearly the dead bodies are there.
9 Q. Can we look at Exhibit 54?
10 A. This is the -- excuse me. This is the
11 armoured ambulance. These are some Cheshire soldiers
12 taking cover or covering us as we reversed, opened the
13 door and then put the bodies in the back. Here is a
14 dead man, a civilian.
15 Q. Exhibit 55.
16 A. Here is another dead man. And another man
17 next to him here, slightly more -- middle-aged. We
18 were about to pick these bodies up and put them into
19 the back of the ambulance.
20 Q. And Exhibit 56.
21 A. This is the ambulance door and the
22 entrance -- the back of the ambulance, and these are
23 the bodies. There's obviously one, two, and here is
24 the feet of a third. There was a couple more on the
25 stretcher up here. This man I personally lifted into
1 the ambulance.
2 Q. That's the man with the purple jacket?
3 A. Yes. He's got a bad injury to his arm, and
4 he has a couple of other injuries that suggested to me
5 that he'd probably been engaged with automatic fire or
6 with several sort of single-aimed shots. Probably
7 automatic fire, because after the first shot you tend
8 to fall down.
9 Q. And Exhibit 57.
10 A. Here is probably a better view of one, two,
11 three, four, five people. A soldier here with his
12 rubber gloves on. Yep.
13 Q. Now, I would just like you to describe all of
14 the men. Were any of them in any sort of obvious
16 A. None of them were in any obvious uniform or
17 any -- my experience was that most Bosnian solders had,
18 if not any uniform, had one or two items of uniform,
19 what I would call mixed dress, but none of these had
20 any green jacket or sleeveless black top or anything
21 signifying anything military whatsoever.
22 Q. Were there any weapons next to these --
23 A. There were no weapons anywhere near them.
24 Q. I think you've described one or two of the
25 bodies and how you believed they, in fact, were
1 killed. Can you describe the others? Are you in a
2 position to?
3 A. I'm not really in a position to describe them
4 other than they were all dead and they sustained more
5 than one shot.
6 Q. And so those bodies were subsequently taken
7 further up the village, I think you said?
8 A. Yeah. They were taken to the east -- I
9 shall, if you like, point on the map where we took
11 Q. If you could? And that's pointing on Exhibit
12 229. If you can mark the location with an X with the
13 red pen of the place where the bodies were taken?
14 A. (Marks). Took them to the small lay-by there
15 just north-east of the cemetery here.
16 Q. I think you said that you took those bodies
17 to that location so to enable Muslim people to pick
18 these bodies up --
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. -- in more safety?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. I'd like to show you another photograph, and
23 if you can explain to the Court what that is? It's a
24 new exhibit.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 240.
1 A. This is -- you can see three of the four
2 Warriors here parked on the road. You can see, between
3 these two Warriors, Corporal Ramsden's scimitar at the
4 end of the road further towards the cemetery, you can
5 see here my vehicle just off the road, and you can also
6 see that the headlights are on -- it's quite -- it's
7 getting dark or getting darker, and we had actually
8 completed the removal of the bodies and we're now on
9 our way.
10 I recall that we had been distracted by
11 gunfire in the Ahmici area, and therefore, you can see
12 these three barrels over to the right-hand side of the
13 decks of the vehicles.
14 Something I also recall -- I have a
15 photograph somewhere, but I can't find it -- of direct
16 fire being shot from this hillside here, which I
17 believe to be a Croat position, it's on the western
18 side of the Busovaca sort of area, Busovaca being
19 further into this valley, and it was a series of tracer
20 rounds with gaps between them. They're obviously
21 automatic, but the gaps between them were consistent
22 with that of something like an anti-aircraft gun being
23 used in the direct role, the surface role of probably
24 20 or 30 millimetres and sufficiently fast and flat
25 trajectory to tell me that they were of that nature,
1 and they were being fired from the top of this hill
2 across into Ahmici, into the village area.
3 Q. About how many firings did you see?
4 A. There were a couple of bursts. In fact, I
5 remember trying to take a picture of them, and every
6 time there was a burst, I managed to -- I failed, and
7 finally caught a picture on the last burst of
8 ammunition of fire.
9 Q. Was there any burst back?
10 A. Not that I was aware. I didn't see any, not
11 on their return.
12 Q. With the red marker, could you put the
13 trajectory or what you saw onto that last exhibit, 240?
14 A. (Marks). That's really behind that house but
15 from the top of this hill across, into the back of
16 here. That's in the distance rather than in the
17 foreground. Difficult to show, really.
18 Q. Looking at that photograph, there's a damaged
19 house that appears to be at the corner of the
20 junction. Did you notice whether that was damaged when
21 you arrived there or left there earlier that day?
22 A. It wasn't damaged when I arrived there, but I
23 didn't notice it on the exit of the village at about
25 Q. So it could have been --
1 A. It could have been done --
2 Q. -- destroyed any time after your arrival?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Could you put an arrow on the direction of
5 the trajectory for the record on that exhibit on which
6 way --
7 A. Sorry, direction.
8 Q. -- which direction it was actually heading.
9 A. (Marks)
10 Q. And if you put Exhibit 229, which is the
11 aerial of the village, can you explain what the white
12 arrow generally reflects?
13 A. Yes. That white arrow is the direction of
14 the fire, and this is actually a hilly feature, which
15 is difficult to see from this two-dimensional picture,
16 but when I took the picture that you've just seen in
17 the last example, I was sitting here (indicating).
18 That house that was destroyed, that we just talked
19 about, is here, the Warriors are lined along here, and
20 Corporal Ramsden and his vehicle down here, and that
21 fire that I saw came across here into the back of
23 Q. You were only involved in one body pick-up;
24 is that correct?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. But is it your belief that there were other
2 body pick-ups by other people?
3 A. That afternoon, I understood that Lieutenant
4 Dooley had conducted a series of pick-ups something
5 like two or three, of about four to six bodies each
6 time and taken them somewhere. I don't know where.
7 Q. After that pick-up, you headed back to base
9 A. That's right, yeah.
10 Q. About how long did that take?
11 A. It was -- I'd say the whole thing wrapped up
12 within about an hour, probably a bit over an hour.
13 Q. Looking at this photograph that I'll produce
14 to you -- it's a new exhibit -- could you explain to
15 the Court what that is?
16 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit is marked 241.
17 A. This is a picture of Vitez. You can see the
18 Catholic church here, the Catholic end of -- the Croat
19 end of town, and this is the Muslim end, and if you
20 could see through the smoke, you'd see a minaret around
21 here somewhere. This is my vehicle periscopes, this
22 is -- that's pointing east, that direction. So what
23 we're doing is we're going along the ring road to
24 Dubravica late in the day, although it's not a very
25 good, clear shot. Because we're going east, I
1 understand it to be my second journey to Ahmici that
2 day, so this is not the morning but the second journey
3 to go and pick up the bodies, and as I can see, the
4 area of Vitez is still smoking from its activity that
5 morning or that day.
6 MR. SMITH:
7 Q. That's the area I'd like to briefly discuss
8 now, is putting what you saw in Ahmici in some sort of
9 Vitez-wide, municipal-wide context. Did you go into
10 Vitez on the 16th of April?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So the route you took was always a ring route
13 around --
14 A. Yeah, the northern route around Vitez. There
15 was no reason for me to go into Vitez and, in fact, the
16 intensity of what was going on in Vitez was the first
17 reason why I was left in a mess in the morning and was
18 only then sent to Ahmici to investigate what apparently
19 at the time was some activity, unspecified.
20 Q. After the 16th of April, did you visit some
21 other villages that had received some substantial
23 A. Yes, I did, yeah.
24 Q. I believe on the 30th of April, you visited a
25 village called Jelinak?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. About how far away is that from Ahmici?
3 A. It's probably -- it's -- if you take a
4 circular route up to the north-east, it is about 8
5 kilometres, 10 kilometres.
6 Q. What was the predominant population in
7 Jelinak, what --
8 A. It was a predominantly Muslim village.
9 Q. Why did you go to Jelinak?
10 A. Because I was, on the 30th of April, I was
11 handing over my responsibility to a lieutenant from the
12 light dragoons who were the regiment taking over from
13 us in Bosnia, and I visited -- Jelinak is part of
14 routine patrols or a routine handover, although I had
15 never actually been there before. I had been to Putis,
16 which is just east of Jelinak, but then decided to
17 venture into Jelinak with Lieutenant Rennick.
18 Q. So it was a general patrol; is that correct?
19 A. A general patrol as well as a handover
21 Q. Why did you pick that particular village?
22 A. Just coverage of the area, a random coverage
23 of the area, in some respect, and also more specific
24 coverage of the area with regard Ahmici and other
1 Q. And what of significance did you see in that
3 A. Well, I drove from Putis up into the village
4 to the first house on my left-hand side, and there I
5 stopped when a couple of men came out of the building
6 and asked me to stop, stop to talk to them, and they
7 asked me to jump down and come and look at something,
8 so I decided to jump down, took my rifle with me, and
9 the one soldier, who was a grey-haired man but quite
10 strong-looking, maybe in his late 40s, showed me where
11 three people had been killed and which -- the bodies
12 were still there, or the remnants of the bodies.
13 He showed me against the side of the
14 building, the back of the house, three splotches, three
15 marks of blood where it was very evident three people
16 had been shot. The red marks were at head height, so
17 there had been three men shot in the head. The blood
18 had trickled down the wall, and then where the men had
19 been dragged away onto some grass, there was a trail of
20 blood, congealed blood, you could see the trail to
21 where the bodies then lay. I say "bodies." The first
22 was pretty much a head, charred head, skull, quite easy
23 to recognise as a human skull; the second was a skull
24 and shoulders and a bit of torso, again charred
25 completely; and the third was a full torso and head
1 with absolutely perfect features of a human being and
2 arms other than the fact that they were absolutely jet
3 black as that cloak, having been burned. What was most
4 extraordinary was the fact that next to the black and
5 burnt torso were two knee-length black leather boots,
6 what I've described as jackboots, which had the legs
7 inside them, which were not burnt, which is
8 significant, I think. You could see the bones, the
9 knee bones and the flesh, where they had obviously been
10 chopped off before they had burned the bodies.
11 Q. Where were these bodies? Were they in a
12 house? Were they outside?
13 A. They were outside the house next to -- you
14 could follow the blood trail from the three spots on
15 the wall -- I say "spots" -- patches of blood this
16 large trickled down, follow the blood. The three
17 remains of the bodies were outside on the grass on the
18 eastern edge of a house in Jelinak.
19 Q. And about how many houses were in Jelinak;
20 have you got any understanding --
21 A. Jelinak was very stretched out, and it sort
22 of merged into Loncari. It's not a large village,
23 maybe 40 houses.
24 Q. Was there any damage to the houses?
25 A. The houses -- typical burnt-out roofs,
1 beams. The roofs had collapsed where they had been set
2 on fire, doorways and windows blackened.
3 Q. What percentage of the village appeared to
4 have been destroyed in that manner?
5 A. I think about 40 or 50 per cent of it had
6 been destroyed, and this is sometime after, and it was
7 absolutely deserted apart from the couple of guys who
8 came from some hide where they had been.
9 Q. Do you know the date in which this
10 destruction occurred and killing?
11 A. Well, it can only really -- the last time I
12 was anywhere near there was the 15th of April, on the
13 night when I was in Putis, and I was there then on the
14 30th of April, so it was anywhere between those two
16 Q. So you've got no specific knowledge?
17 A. No, although most of the activity I
18 understand went on between the 16th and the 25th of
19 April I understand just from my knowledge.
20 Q. This village was predominantly Muslim; is
21 that correct?
22 A. That's right, that's right.
23 Q. And the Serb frontlines in relation to
24 Jelinak, can you explain to the Court where they would
25 be? Would they be nearby?
1 A. Well, from Jelinak, the Serb frontline is not
2 even significant, there's no weapon. This was -- in
3 that theatre would be able to be launched from a Serb
4 position, certainly not to the east but to the nearest
5 Serb frontline to the west and north-west was Turbe
6 which was about 20 miles away.
7 Q. Bearing that in mind, what was your
8 presumption as to which military force generally
9 inflicted that damage on that village?
10 A. It was the HVO that had attacked that
12 Q. But you didn't see the particular attack.
13 A. No, no.
14 Q. This is a conclusion.
15 A. This is a Muslim village. Serbs are miles
16 away. Conclusion: Croats attacked this village.
17 There was also some -- there was also two pigs in the
18 village that were still smouldering, in fact, when we
19 arrived there, and I don't think pigs smoulder for 15
20 days when lit. I think they were put -- I assume they
21 were put there just to desecrate or soil, make a point
22 about Muslim faith, in that they were brought along and
23 destroyed there to sort of desecrate the village, if
24 you like, and they were still smouldering when I
25 arrived there, suggesting they had been lit or shot or
1 something like that only a few days before.
2 Q. Was the village populated or was it empty?
3 A. It was deserted.
4 Q. There's a village near Jelinak called
5 Loncari. You visited that on that --
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. -- same day; is that correct?
8 A. I arrived in Jelinak from the east along
9 through Putis and I exited Jelinak through Loncari.
10 Q. What did you see in Loncari of significance,
11 if anything?
12 A. It was very similar to Jelinak, really. It
13 was a continuation. Again, houses burnt, blackened
14 timbers, burnt windows and door frames, and
15 livestock -- there's a lot of livestock, horses, and
16 some cattle that had been killed and had -- rigor
17 mortis had set in because their legs were stretched out
18 straight as they were lying on their sides, a general
19 bad smell.
20 Q. Can you give the Court some sort of
21 understanding of the size of the village, how many
22 houses, what type of village was it?
23 A. A rural village, quite a long, thin village.
24 I'm not sure if it didn't follow a small stream, but a
25 linear village, I'd say, maybe of -- between 30 and 50
2 Q. Can you give an estimate of the number of
3 houses that appeared to be in a burnt, destroyed state
4 from which you mentioned earlier?
5 A. Probably anything between a quarter and half
6 of the houses.
7 Q. Was there any sign of death in that village?
8 A. The animals. Apart from the -- in Loncari --
9 Jelinak aside and the other three bodies I've talked
10 about -- in Loncari, all I witnessed was dead animals,
11 particularly a horse I remember very clearly, dead.
12 Q. Can you explain to the Court the predominant
13 ethnic group that lived in that village?
14 A. I understood the ethnic grouping to be
16 Q. This village falls into a similar situation
17 in terms of Jelinak in that it was quite a way away
18 from the Serb frontline, Bosnian Serb frontline; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, very much so, yeah.
21 Q. And what conclusion do you have in relation
22 to the military group or that would have been involved
23 in that attack on that village?
24 A. Well, I'm not very clear on the Muslim or
25 Croat intent at the time, their intentions, their
1 concept of operations, but the relevance of taking that
2 village, a Muslim village, so a Croat offensive on that
3 village seemed to bear no relevance, militarily, as
4 there was no fortifications in that village, there were
5 no trenches, there were no sangars or defended houses
6 that I saw.
7 Q. From your experience in Bosnia on that tour
8 and your tour following, can you offer another
9 alternative if, in fact, a military group organised an
10 attack on this village of Loncari other than the
11 Bosnian Croat military, apart from a Bosnian Muslim
12 military group?
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Radovic?
14 MR. RADOVIC: I don't think that this has
15 anything to do with the indictment, and I have an
16 objection. For example, the village of Loncari, what
17 has that to do with Ahmici, and the pigs that were
18 mentioned, the slaughtered pigs which were several
19 kilometres from Ahmici and it has nothing to do with
20 this case, and all this happened 15 days later, whereas
21 the indictment concludes with the 16th of April. I
22 think that we were tolerant enough, but I think things
23 have gone too far now.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Smith?
25 MR. SMITH: In relation to that, Your Honour,
1 the main focus of this witness's testimony has been
2 Ahmici, and in relation to the crimes against humanity
3 count, we must prove that what occurred in Ahmici was
4 part of a widespread or systematic attack on the
5 civilian population, and that's obviously why it's
6 being led, and as far as the dates of when this
7 village -- these two villages were attacked, the
8 witness didn't say the 30th of April, he said that's,
9 in fact, when he visited, and he believed that the
10 attack on those villages was between the 16th and
12 In any event, I'm going to be moving off this
13 topic, but it is an important point for the
15 JUDGE CASSESE: I agree, yes. But you should
16 try to phrase your questions in such a way that they
17 are not leading.
18 Yes, Counsel Radovic?
19 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honours, I accept this
20 theory, that the indictment would like to prove broader
21 aspects, but for our aspects, for our clients, for them
22 to prove that they were -- a broader aspect, that they
23 should show that they had a higher position in politics
24 or elsewhere. So when they step outside the frameworks
25 of Ahmici, that is, people who had no military or
1 civilian authority, I don't think this comes within the
2 frameworks of the indictment as it stands.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, Counsel Radovic. With
4 all due respect, you are wrong from the viewpoint of
5 international law. You were referring to command
6 responsibility. We are not dealing with the question
7 of command responsibility, we are dealing with the
8 question of whether or not the alleged crimes committed
9 by the accused may be characterised as crimes against
11 Now, as you know, one of the ingredients of
12 crimes against humanity is that they are part of a
13 widespread practice or systematic practice, whatever
14 the position of responsibility in a command structure
15 of the accused. A rape committed by a soldier may be
16 classified as a crime against humanity if it is part of
17 a widespread practice; so therefore, their position of
18 responsibility is not relevant.
19 MR. SMITH: I'm moving off this topic. Just
20 one last question, Your Honour.
21 Q. Who was -- who do you believe, based on the
22 circumstances that you had at hand, was responsible for
23 the attack on Loncari?
24 A. Based on what I saw, on my understanding of
25 the Croat and Muslim dispositions, based on what the
1 woman at the start of the village told my interpreter
2 and therefore me, it was clear that there was an HVO
3 offensive that had taken this village, Muslim village,
4 which had a minaret very clearly standing on the 16th
5 of April at the front of the village.
6 Q. Sorry, I was referring to Loncari.
7 A. I beg your pardon. Again, as a result of my
8 understanding of dispositions, in our operations room,
9 we had a demographic or ethnic chart, and from that, I
10 knew this area to be predominantly Muslim, and it had
11 received destruction of a nature similar to that of
13 Q. The civilians had gone from Loncari; is that
15 A. Correct, yes.
16 Q. You said in the beginning of your testimony
17 that you received training and education in the law of
18 armed conflict, the rules that apply to war. In
19 relation to the principles of protection of civilians
20 and protection of civilian property, can you give the
21 Court an opinion on the nature of the attack, whether
22 you, as an educated, experienced military soldier,
23 believe it was an unlawful operation or the damage and
24 the injuries that you saw was legitimate?
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you.
1 Could you maybe rephrase this question because actually
2 it's not important -- it is for the Court to decide
3 whether it was lawful or unlawful. The question is
4 whether it was a military operation or -- let me see,
5 the words used by the witness. He said there was, in a
6 way, a choice between military action or civilian
8 So without classifying the action as lawful
9 or unlawful, whether it was, rather, a military action
10 or a civilian slaughter, to use his own words.
11 MR. SMITH: I'm happy with that question,
12 Your Honour.
13 A. Again, from what I saw, from what I was told
14 by the woman, from the smoking houses, from the smoking
15 civilian houses, the dead -- couple of dead men of what
16 I would describe as non-combatant age, from a man who
17 was in civilian clothing in a jumper who had got a shot
18 in the back, in the back, suggesting he was withdrawing
19 or running away or something, from a woman who saw --
20 with a very nasty face, who was probably about 50 or
21 60, a woman with a head wound, which is a gunshot, a
22 single shot on her head, and from a whole cellar of
23 anything from old men to children, a small girl of 12
24 years old, from seeing that and seeing no defences,
25 only a few men earlier on in the day of combat age with
1 rifles, my impression was that whether there had been
2 any soldiers in this village at all, of which there was
3 only a very, very small example, these few men I've
4 talked about, at the end of the day, these houses,
5 these civilian houses, had been burnt down, were on
6 fire - these were not houses that had any signs of
7 being defended by soldiers or had any fortifications -
8 and I think when you see 12-year-old girls with bullet
9 wounds and even men who could fight with gunshot wounds
10 in their backs or women with gunshot wounds in their
11 heads, it tells me that this is a slaughter of
13 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your
14 Honour. I apologise for being lengthy with this
15 witness, but because he was very much involved on the
16 day, it does take a little time.
17 I would like to tender Exhibits 229 to 241.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we now take a
19 break, 30-minute break. We will reconvene at 4.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic.
23 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, I would like to
24 inform you that the witness will be questioned by
25 counsel Ranko Radovic.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Radovic.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
3 Q. Tell me, Major, as far as I was able to
4 understand, you are an infantry man, or armoured units,
5 or what is your category, in fact? What is your rank?
6 A. I'm from a reconnaissance armoured unit,
8 Q. In your specialist training -- does artillery
9 come under your specialist training?
10 A. Not under my specialist training, no.
11 Q. And what about anti-aircraft guns, is that
12 part of your training too?
13 A. ... I'm trained in, but I have a good
14 all-round knowledge of the all-arms battle, and that
15 includes air defence and artillery, and infantry work
16 and armoured work.
17 Q. Did you see anti-aircraft guns, the ones that
18 the HVO had at their disposal in the surroundings of
19 Vitez, did you personally see them?
20 A. I didn't see the guns, but I saw fire from a
21 gun, from a HVO area, which with its rate of fire, the
22 size of the tracer, the trajectory of the gun, made me
23 understand that they were clearly anti-aircraft guns,
24 and I can further confirm that if you wish me to.
25 Q. How did you know that it was a 30-millimetre
1 anti-aircraft gun?
2 A. I didn't know it was a 30-millimetre gun, I
3 said it was between 20 and 30 millimetres, because
4 anti-aircraft guns are normally anything between 23
5 millimetres, 20 millimetres, sometimes as little as
6 12.7 millimetres and sometimes as much as 40. That's
7 why I said between 20 and 30, roughly.
8 Q. Very well. Do you know, in concrete terms,
9 what anti-aircraft were against at the disposal of the
10 HVO and the Muslim side, the army of
12 A. I think most of the units out there had
13 former JNA weapons, and most of these weapons are based
14 on Russian or Soviet type weaponry, the ZPU or ZSU
15 type anti-aircraft guns. Mainly ZPUs, ZPU-4 12.7
16 millimetre, 20 millimetre, some 23 millimetres and even
17 57 millimetres in some cases.
18 Q. Very well. I'm now interested in knowing how
19 you decided upon this category between 20 and 30
21 A. The rounds that were fired over the hillside
22 had firing intervals in that I'm saying the rate of
23 fire showed me that they were, first of all, not
24 machine gun, which puts them in a larger bracket.
25 Okay? They were also not of a rate of -- do you want
1 me to continue, or are you going to talk?
2 Q. Yes, you can carry on. I can ask you the
3 next question in that regard. Do you know that
4 anti-aircraft guns are conceived in such a way as to
5 have limited possibility for reducing the barrel
6 downwards, just like with tanks, you can't raise the
7 barrel upwards, which is the case with Russian tanks,
8 for example. And this one can't go downwards. Do you
9 know of that fact?
10 A. That's not correct. You can depress an
11 anti-aircraft gun to fire in a direct role, and in
12 fact, I was fired on by Serb guns in January over near
13 Kladanj, where anti-aircraft guns were fired at me in a
14 direct role from the other side of a valley, and I had
15 this confirmed to me by the Bosnian Serbs when I
16 visited a town over their border some weeks later, and
17 we had a good laugh about it.
18 Q. But do you know whether it was the same type
19 of weapon, because I imagine that not all types have
20 the same combat possibilities.
21 A. Anti-aircraft guns can fire in the direct
22 role and they can be depressed. It is the simple case
23 of letting a gun lower. They all fire from the
24 horizontal with either a series of hand controls,
25 winches, and they can be elevated up to the vertical
1 and, in fact, beyond it, all around 360 degrees.
2 Because when you're firing at an aircraft, it may be
3 coming towards and you're firing like this, and they're
4 coming up like that and you might be going around and
5 beyond. Soviet anti-aircraft guns fire in all
6 directions, including on a flat trajectory on the
8 The flat trajectory of the ammunition going
9 across the valley in that it wasn't like this but it
10 was flat like that, shows that the rounds were of a
11 high velocity, and they were being fired at a rate of
12 fire where there were about up to, say, ten tracer
13 element or rounds in the air at any one time, and this
14 is consistent with an anti-aircraft gun. Tanks fire
15 rounds one at a time. Machine-guns fire with a rapid
16 rate of fire where you have a lot of rounds in the air
17 of a much smaller nature.
18 My training -- I'm a gunnery officers in the
19 Royal Armoured Corps, and this is why I know about
21 Q. Tell me what the time was when you filmed the
22 men carrying the weapons.
23 A. Which men carrying which weapons?
24 Q. On the photograph that was shown to you. One
25 photograph shows people not wearing uniforms with
1 automatic rifles, and I'm interested in knowing when
2 that picture was taken.
3 A. That picture, if you're referring to the
4 picture that has two men in brown jackets carrying
5 AK-47s, that was taken at about 11.00, 11.30 in the
7 Q. On their civilian clothing did they have any
8 signs showing that they belonged to any army?
9 A. No, they didn't.
10 Q. What, according to the rules of the British
11 army, would you do with individuals carrying firearms,
12 without having any insignia as belonging to an army?
13 Which category would you place those individuals in?
14 A. Depends how they are dressed.
15 Q. Like the people dressed that you took the
16 photo of. If the British army were to meet men dressed
17 like that in the operation zone, what would you
18 think -- who did you think these men belonged to, what
20 A. If that's a general question, if I came
21 across --
22 Q. I am asking -- yes, tell us. Go ahead,
24 A. If that's a general question, if I came
25 across, in any war, men dressed in civilian clothing,
1 with a rifle --
2 Q. In any war, yes.
3 A. Yes. It depends which side they were on. If
4 I could speak to them and establish they were on my
5 side, I would take no action. If they were firing at
6 me and they were wearing civilian clothing, I would
7 shoot them. I don't really understand what you're
8 trying to get at.
9 Q. I am trying to get at whether you would
10 consider them to be soldiers.
11 A. In this specific case I would regard them as
12 soldiers because --
13 Q. No, I'm asking you in general terms.
14 Generally speaking, if the British army were to
15 encounter an adversary firing at them without military
16 uniforms or military emblems, who would you consider
17 them to be?
18 A. Well, I wouldn't know because they would have
19 no emblems on them. The point is here, and what I
20 think you're trying to say is these soldiers are or are
21 not soldiers. Because these men are in Bosnia, and
22 because Bosnia doesn't have a professional army with
23 professionally trained soldiers, my experience is that
24 you have any man with any weapon dressed in any
25 clothing can be a soldier. So I don't see what you're
1 trying to say.
2 Q. Very well. I would like an answer. I'm not
3 trying to say anything. I just would like to have an
4 answer to the question, are they soldiers without
5 uniforms with weapons, and without having any signs on
6 their civilian clothes as showing that they belonged to
7 an army of any kind? Would you not agree with me if I
8 say that if they are civilians they would have to have
9 emblems showing that they belonged to some army, or a
10 five pointed star or something else. This is just an
11 ad hoc, random example. Anywhere on their clothing.
12 A. If a man is wearing civilian clothing, he
13 could be anything from a civilian to a soldier. This
14 situation, whether it was the same for another British
15 army situation somewhere else in the world, at the end
16 of the day if you have somebody with a rifle, whatever
17 they're wearing, then I would regard them by looking at
18 the weapon and not looking at what they were wearing,
19 and especially in Bosnia. What they were wearing was
20 irrelevant, because I would say these two are soldiers
21 is the point. I never doubted that they were
22 soldiers. But what sort of soldiers they were, whether
23 they were professional frontline soldiers or whether
24 they were local defenders, I don't know. I don't know
25 whether they were there in the morning or whether
1 they'd come as a result of the engagement in the
2 morning. The fact that they were standing there and
3 they had no -- I had no -- I was not aware of them
4 having taken part in any fighting, suggests to me that
5 they probably came afterwards, unless they hid while
6 their friends, and families, and old people and
7 children were slaughtered.
8 Q. Well, I'm not asking you for your
9 conclusions, I'm just asking you what you saw with your
10 very eyes and heard with your very ears. What you
11 conclude is your own conclusion, but in court it is
12 customary for witnesses to set out the facts and then
13 the Court decides on those facts. That is to say,
14 whether it was so or not so. So let us keep to what
15 you saw and heard.
16 A. Before you asked me my opinion of what they
17 were -- looked on as by the British army of any
18 battle. Okay? So that's an opinion, isn't it.
19 So if you want the facts, these two men were
20 two men of combat age, they were wearing civilian
21 clothing but were carrying rifles --
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Smith.
23 MR. SMITH: Your Honour --
24 MR. RADOVIC: That's right. And the part of
25 my question -- I asked that part of my question because
1 it belongs to your professional expertise.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Let Mr. Smith speak.
3 MR. SMITH: I want to raise one point. I
4 think there is a difficulty arising in this
5 cross-examination, and the difficulty is I think there
6 is confusion. The witness may well be confused from
7 general questions to specific fact questions, and in
8 the beginning my friend was asking questions of a
9 general nature and only wanted to ask from a general
10 point of view. This witness was trying to keep it in
11 relation to what he saw and what he did, but my friend
12 wants it had in a general way. Now the witness, when
13 answering a question in a general way, that general
14 question is being criticised by my friend for not
15 relating it to the specific facts. So it's a mixture
16 of concept and what he saw and what he heard.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Let me try and rephrase the
18 question put by Counsel Radovic, with Counsel Radovic's
19 permission. I think you -- probably the gist of your
20 question was that you were keen to know from the
21 witness whether under, you said, British rules, British
22 military law, British rules, a civilian in civilian
23 clothes, with no distinctive emblem but carrying
24 weapons, would be regarded as a lawful combatant or as
25 an unlawful combatant. I think this was probably the
1 sense of this question.
2 A. Okay. Generally speaking, an unlawful
3 combatant if he's got no uniform or insignia, or is
4 quite clearly not a soldier. But the point is, going
5 back to specifics, is that --
6 JUDGE CASSESE: So far this is the general
7 question. I wonder whether --
8 A. Can I continue?
9 MR. RADOVIC: That is precisely what I wanted
10 to hear.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder if you are
12 interested now to take up the point taken by Mr. Smith,
13 in classifying the actual behaviour of those two
15 MR. RADOVIC: Let me put it this way: First
16 of all, I wanted to hear that these were unlawful
17 combatants because they did not have any insignia on
18 their clothes showing that they belonged to an
19 organised unit. And we stopped at that point, as far
20 as I'm concerned.
21 A. Can I continue with that? I'd like to be
22 more specific, to be honest.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Why not?
24 A. Yeah. I think we all know from the theatre
25 of operations in Bosnia, whether the side is Serb --
1 or Bosnian, Serb, Croat or Muslim, the nature of how
2 the war came about, you do have situations where men of
3 combat age, and any age, in fact, can pick up weapons
4 and become part of forces. Some are police forces,
5 some are the army, but generally, if they have a weapon
6 they are, in many cases that I was aware of, part of
7 armies. They might not be on the frontline with a
8 formed unit, but they might be part of a local defence,
9 defending their families and children from being
10 slaughtered by opposition. That's how I see it, and
11 that's my experience of my time out there. Just
12 because somebody didn't have a uniform on didn't mean
13 he was a soldier defending something like a village,
14 for example, Ahmici.
15 MR. RADOVIC:
16 Q. Tell me, witness, are you an interested party
17 in any way in this case?
18 A. I am not an interested party in any way. Why
19 do you ask that question?
20 Q. I'm asking you this question because you go
21 far beyond what you are asked.
22 MR. SMITH: I object, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MAY: I object to this line of
24 questioning. Just a moment.
25 This line of questioning is wholly
1 unjustified, in my view. The witness was, first of
2 all, asked his opinions by the Prosecution about
3 military matters and he gave them. You, Mr. Radovic
4 asked him his opinion and he gave it. Now you choose
5 to allege that he's somehow an interested party.
6 It may well be he's interested in the sense
7 that he has reported what he saw that day, but apart
8 from that, I do not see that he's an interested party
9 and I regard it as an objectionable question.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, could you
11 move on to another question, please?
12 MR. RADOVIC:
13 Q. As far as detonations are concerned, and
14 shooting and similar sounds that are heard in a closed
15 room, you mentioned that identification of a place that
16 this sound may come from is affected by resonance, by
17 echo. So my question would be: The identification of
18 a place of explosion from a closed room, at what range
19 is this? And also, to what extent does echo affect
20 this adversely? That is to say this place that it came
21 from, especially in an open space where there is an
23 A. That was absolutely clear. The --
24 Q. I'm trying to put my questions clearly.
25 A. Yes, it was very technically put.
1 At the end of the day, when I was in the
2 village of Ahmici, my experience of what was going on
3 around me was obviously visual and audio, the audio.
4 And what I heard while focusing on a problem like an
5 injured woman, or girl or whatever, was noises in the
6 background, whether automatic fire or the odd explosion
7 in and around the area. And it was very difficult,
8 while focusing on first-aid and what have you of these
9 injured civilians, to quantify or to be specific about
10 the nature of this battle noise, because, of course,
11 you do have echoes, and I'm not being specific at all
12 about any direction of any weapon noise or gunfire, and
13 I'd rather leave it at that, because I can't be exact
14 about it and it would be unfair to be saying anything
15 other than it was just general background or peripheral
16 noise explosions in a sporadic and occasional manner.
17 Q. I didn't exactly put this question in
18 relation to your own personal experience, but I really
19 asked because of some other witnesses who said that
20 they had identified where a sound had come from,
21 although they were in a closed room. So I asked you
22 because you were an expert in this field, and can you
23 tell by an echo how far some sound came from? So I'm
24 asking you this as an expert question rather than in
25 view of your personal experience.
1 A. Okay. I understand. What you do is you
2 measure the distance between the crack of the rifle, or
3 the gun or whatever is firing and the thump of the
4 incoming round or bullet or whatever. The larger the
5 gap between the crack and the thump suggests the
6 farther the range of the weapon is away from you, and
7 the shorter, obviously the opposite.
8 Q. Now, I would kindly ask you to look at this
9 map and tell me -- you can look at the photograph
10 behind you, the big one, but could the other --
11 Mr. Usher, could you please remove the other map that
12 is on the big one?
13 So this is the main road that leads from
14 Vitez up to Zenica, et cetera, right? I'm interested
15 in the following: To the best of your knowledge, do
16 part of the houses of the village of Ahmici go across
17 this road?
18 A. I understand that -- I'm not sure whether the
19 houses go to the south side of the road. I
20 generally -- yeah, I think they do. The name of Ahmici
21 is actually on the north side of the road on the map,
22 and all my references have been really to a map -- my
23 experience is from the map, and the problem with the
24 houses in Bosnia is that you can have small groups of
25 houses that don't even have a village name. So it
1 would be speculation for me just to say now that the
2 houses south of the road were Ahmici or that they
3 weren't Ahmici.
4 Q. All right. In your opinion as an officer who
5 is a Major now, was this road of strategic importance
6 for the HVO in case of an armed conflict with the
7 Muslims, of strategic importance?
8 A. This road runs basically east/west. And let
9 me first say that any road is of importance for lines
10 of communication and supply, but generally a road
11 running east/west, from what I understood the situation
12 to be, was not quite as relevant as a road running
13 north/south, because generally your operations, the HVO
14 operations, were south/north leading out of the
15 Busovaca area and that linear sort of frontline running
16 from Busovaca across to the west, south of this sort of
18 So if I was a Croat wanting to advance,
19 depending on what my objective was, I'd be going north,
20 and, therefore, to have this road would be nice, but I
21 wouldn't have thought necessarily essential, other than
22 distributing logistics across my frontage to the east
23 and to the west.
24 Q. And tell me, this road, doesn't it link Vitez
25 and Busovaca?
1 A. Correct. Yes. So there you go. You've
2 answered the question. It is of some importance,
3 because it's nice for the HVO headquarters in Vitez to
4 have a little bit of a link with that of the bases in
5 Busovaca. Very good.
6 Q. Tell me, if there were a group of HVO in
7 Vitez and a group of HVO in Busovaca, is cutting off a
8 line of communication between these two groups part of
9 warfare strategy in any battle?
10 A. It could be, yes.
11 Q. I mean, to separate these units and then to
12 destroy each group separately; isn't that correct?
13 A. That is a very typical way of conducting
14 operations. Yes, that could be done.
15 Q. You said that you did not notice in Ahmici
16 any significant presence of the BH army. What did you
17 mean by that when you said that? That is to say, this
18 should be elaborated in two directions.
19 First of all, did you notice any presence of
20 the BH army? And, if so, because you said you did not
21 notice a significant presence, how was this presence
22 that was there manifested?
23 A. What I saw, as I said earlier, was no
24 evidence -- there was no evidence of any formed Bosnian
25 or Muslim army. There was no defences that I saw.
1 There was no barbed wire, there was no trenches, there
2 were no sangars, there were no houses which were
3 fortified. The only thing I saw that I knew was Muslim
4 and that resembled anything to do with fighting, were a
5 few gentlemen in and around, as you see on this picture
6 here, carrying Kalashnikov weapons. That's all I saw
7 in the way of Muslim men of fighting age in Ahmici.
8 Q. If I understood you correctly, you base your
9 conclusion on what you saw precisely that day, on the
10 16th of April?
11 A. That's correct, yes.
12 Q. That is to say that before that you did not
13 come to the village of Ahmici?
14 A. No. I drove past the village of Ahmici, but
15 I saw from the main road, if you use that as a
16 confrontation line, no defences at any point. Had I
17 seen any defences or build-up of forces, I'm sure,
18 anywhere along that frontline I would have noticed
20 Q. Tell me, when with your armoured vehicles you
21 got into Ahmici, did you move exclusively along the
22 road or did you go apart from the road? Did you go
23 into the fields?
24 A. No, I didn't, but what we did do when we
25 advanced is we advanced and stopped occasionally, and
1 using our times ten magnified sights did look into
2 woodland in order to see any activity, because it's
3 very important to look after ourselves. We didn't go
4 off the road because you don't know whether there are
5 any mines off the road. But as I say, therefore, we
6 stuck to the road but stopped occasionally to scan the
7 woods and the area for any threat to us.
8 Q. And tell me, when you were looking through
9 the periscopes of your armoured vehicles, wasn't your
10 ability to see what was around you limited after all?
11 Couldn't you see much better if you would get out of
12 the turret rather than only watch through the devices
13 you had in the vehicle?
14 A. No, what you do generally when you're
15 conducting reconnaissance is you use your eyes and, a
16 great deal, your ears as well, and you look around and
17 scan and look for movement, and then when you see
18 anything that's of interest, you then use your
19 times-ten magnification, your very powerful sights,
20 which are far more powerful than any binoculars, and
21 you pinpoint anything of concern.
22 So "No" is the answer. Having said that, you
23 know, my vehicle has a 360 capability, 360-degree
24 capability. General awareness is far greater if you
25 have your head out of the turret, however.
1 Q. Tell me, on the basis of which facts did you
2 conclude that there was danger of minefields?
3 A. I didn't conclude that there was any danger,
4 I was just being prudent because if you stick to
5 tarmac, if you stick to tarmac, you have less chance of
6 being blown up. I was not in any way trying to risk my
7 life or that of my soldiers or my government's
8 property, in fact; and therefore, we stuck to the
9 tracks, as we do today and as I did when I was recently
10 in Bosnia.
11 Q. In the part of Ahmici that is just by the
12 road and part of Ahmici is on the other side of the
13 road, after all, could you exactly identify every house
14 that would be Muslim as opposed to houses that would
15 be, for example, Croat?
16 A. All I had was an understanding that,
17 generally speaking, houses with four-sided roofs,
18 pyramidal shaped were generally Muslim and that
19 houses with Swiss-style two-sided roofs were generally
20 Croat, and that was a good rule to go by. It wasn't
21 necessarily 100 per cent, but it was a good way of
22 adding to your confirmation.
23 Q. But you do allow that there were exceptions?
24 A. Absolutely. But generally speaking, houses
25 all around a minaret tend to be Muslim 'cause it's easy
1 to get to your prayer.
2 Q. One thing that I'm not quite clear on in your
3 conduct, when you went with your armoured vehicles and
4 before you picked up the dead bodies, did you check
5 previously whether there were any other wounded, or did
6 you start picking up the dead bodies once you had
7 asserted that there were no other casualties, wounded?
8 A. Referring to the specific task in the
9 evening, at about 6.00, I was tasked just to assist
10 Lieutenant Dooley and therefore we, rather than
11 creeping in our mission, we just conducted the removal
12 of those five bodies and then finished with that task
13 and went back to our base in Vitez. So to answer the
14 question, I didn't -- we didn't make a point of going
15 into any more buildings to try and find people that
16 were injured because that was not our task.
17 Q. The dead bodies that you found, did you
18 inspect each of them individually, or what did you do?
19 Because you spoke of the possibility of wounding from
20 one position or another, back wounds, and so on. For
21 example, the body where you found that the wound came
22 from, the entrance wound was from the back. Did it
23 have an exit wound?
24 A. I did not have the time to just -- because we
25 were vulnerable, I did not have the time to inspect
1 bodies. What I do remember of the bodies that were
2 lying in the way I believe they fell, I -- on their
3 front or on their back or whatever, they were not there
4 as a result of being piled up or anything, they were
5 there having either been running away, it was that
6 there was several splotches of blood on those bodies in
7 most cases which suggested to me that they had been
8 engaged maybe with automatic fire.
9 Q. Very well. I've understood that. But I'm
10 not quite clear whether you looked for an exit wound
11 or, if not -- let me ask this more exactly: How do you
12 know that the back wound was an entrance wound?
13 A. I don't remember talking about any back wound
14 in this particular case. I talked about a back wound
15 in the morning at Ahmici, which is the first man I
16 spoke to. He had a back wound. The men that were
17 dead -- sorry, the man in the morning, at 11.00 --
18 Q. He was wounded --
19 A. -- he was very alive, although very annoyed,
20 and he had a back wound. The men that were dead lying
21 -- the five men in the field, they had all sorts of
22 injuries, and I didn't have the time to particularly
23 inspect them because the entry wound seemed to have
24 done significant damage and a back wound -- an exit
25 wound seemed irrelevant, really, because they were not
2 Q. Very well. Then we agree, with regard to the
3 dead bodies, that you cannot say whether they were shot
4 from the back or from the front.
5 A. No, but they were -- from what I could see,
6 they were shot -- where they lay was where they had
7 been shot or within yards of where they had been shot
8 because they were lying in a way that was random; in
9 other words, they might have been fleeing or whatever.
10 Q. Tell me, please, the opinion you have just
11 given us belongs to the area of forensics, the
12 mechanisms of the wound, but what I'm interested in is
13 in what you saw with your own eyes, that is to say,
14 whether they were entry/exit wounds and whether all the
15 wounds were in the back.
16 You said just now that you did not inspect
17 the bodies and that quite possibly they could have been
18 entry wounds, that is to say, from the front; is that
20 A. They could have been any wounds. As I just
21 said, I didn't have the time to inspect them. There
22 were five civilian --
23 Q. That's right, yes.
24 A. -- lying in the field, and they were lying
25 where they had been shot, and the fact is that there
1 were dead men, some elderly, who were very dead. As a
2 result of entry or exit wounds, it seemed irrelevant.
3 I didn't have the time to look at them either.
4 Q. That's right, yes. Okay. That's all right.
5 Tell me, do you know whether, on that day, there were
6 dead Croats as well?
7 A. I didn't see any dead Croats, so I had no
8 need -- I have no understanding or belief that there
9 were any.
10 Q. Very well. Believe it or not, it doesn't
11 matter; the facts are what interests us.
12 On the basis of what indices were you able to
13 differentiate between dead Muslims and dead Croats?
14 A. The houses. The dead people that we picked
15 up were sitting next to houses that had been burnt
16 out. You can make an assumption that maybe the houses
17 were set fire to and they exited and were shot, but
18 that aside, I didn't see that, so we can't presume
19 that. But there were dead people next to houses in a
20 Muslim village, the houses having been destroyed, the
21 houses all very near a minaret, and these are the facts
22 that led me to believe that these were Muslim people
23 who were dead in a Muslim village next to a minaret and
24 next to burned-out houses. These are facts. And also
25 evidence from earlier in the morning where the woman
1 had told me, you know, that she had witnessed an attack
2 by Croats early that morning and that -- she was
3 obviously Muslim, with her house, which is about 15
4 yards from a minaret, et cetera, et cetera.
5 Q. Very well. But the people you found in the
6 field that you mentioned, they were neither at home --
7 and the woman that you talked to couldn't have told you
8 anything about them.
9 A. No. I agree, yeah.
10 Q. That means that, in fact, you are giving a
11 conclusion whereas you have not got a concrete
12 incident, and the conclusions are on the basis of what
13 you heard from the Muslim woman and from the other
14 stories, but no measures were taken for the
15 identification of those individuals. Have I understood
16 you correctly?
17 A. That's right, no specific identification of
18 them, but as I say, the series of facts which I've
19 described led me to believe that these were Muslim --
20 Q. That's all right. You've already told us
21 that, yes.
22 And now my final question -- perhaps I've
23 already asked it, perhaps not -- but it has to do with
24 the five men that were mentioned, at the beginning that
25 you mentioned, that you met with Kalashnikovs at around
1 11.00 a.m. Did you in any way inform yourself of
2 whether they were from Ahmici or whether they had come
3 from outside Ahmici?
4 A. No. And as I said earlier, I wasn't sure
5 where they had come from, I didn't speak to them,
6 specifically those men, and if you remember, I did say
7 I was surprised that they were still in one piece,
8 having had no combat, because they were there in the
9 village, and had they been there when the attack went
10 in, they would have probably got involved in it so ...
11 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. I have no further
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.
14 Mr. Smith, any re-examination?
15 MR. SMITH: Just a few questions, Your
17 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:
18 Q. Major Woolley, I just have a few questions to
19 clear up in relation to the questions that Mr. Radovic
20 just asked you regarding the dead bodies that you
21 picked up from the side of the road.
22 You don't know the addresses -- you didn't
23 know the addresses of where they, in fact, lived, did
25 A. No, I didn't.
1 Q. So it's quite possible they could have lived
2 in the area just next to where they were found?
3 A. Correct, yeah.
4 Q. And my friend also asked you some questions
5 in relation to the legitimacy of an operation such as
6 Ahmici, and he mentioned the topic of -- the importance
7 of routes as far as being legitimate military
8 objectives in terms of securing them, and you agreed
9 with that, that some routes can be legitimate military
10 objectives and thus can be secured or can be secured
11 within the meaning of the laws of war?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The villages of Loncari and Jelinak, how far
14 off the main road are they, off the main route between
15 Vitez and Busovaca?
16 A. They're quite a way off the Busovaca-Vitez
17 route, but the route then bends round towards Zenica,
18 obviously a Muslim area, and therefore I would say
19 they're of less relevance to the Croats, to the HVO.
20 Q. If I can produce to you this map, it's a
21 1:50.000 map of the general area of Vitez and Busovaca,
22 and you'll see the villages of Jelinak and Loncari, and
23 can you relate that map to that main route --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- between Vitez and Busovaca?
1 Your Honour, that map has some markings on it
2 which are quite irrelevant, so I would just ask that
3 that be noted in the transcript, irrelevant to the
4 particular point.
5 THE REGISTRAR: The map is marked 242.
6 MR. SMITH:
7 Q. Looking at that map, can you point out the
8 villages of Loncari and Jelinak?
9 A. There is Loncari and here is Jelinak
10 (indicating), and I understand -- let's have a look --
11 Busovaca I think is down this route, down here, this is
12 the junction and this is the road that links Vitez --
13 sorry. This is the road that links Vitez and Busovaca
14 down here, and, of course, here we have Ahmici. So
15 this is the road that we've been looking at all day,
16 and yet here is Loncari and here is Jelinak which, with
17 regard this line of communication, are pretty
18 irrelevant with regard picketing or securing of this
19 route here.
20 Is that the question you wanted answering?
21 Q. Would it be militarily necessary to cause the
22 damage that you saw -- you've given evidence --
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac? An
25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, in
1 relation to this part of the witness's testimony which
2 keeps returning to the two villages, I must say that
3 these events are outside the duration and time of the
4 incrimination and the events of the HVO. These places
5 are not mentioned in the indictment, and we hear for
6 the first time that for this particular part on the
7 16th, that the indictment is being expanded to include
8 these two places because they are not included in the
9 indictment, we hear them for the first time, we don't
10 know the time at which they are happening, and I think
11 that this line of questioning should not be allowed
12 because it outsteps the framework of the indictment.
13 We also consider that we cannot reply to this
14 because we hear of it for the first time as the region
15 of HVO activity. They have not been put forward. This
16 is the first time that this is being done. Thank you.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: The objection is overruled
18 for the reasons I set out before when responding to the
19 objection raised by Counsel Radovic. It is relevant,
20 the facts relating to these two villages are relevant
21 to the indictment to the extent that it relates to
22 crimes against humanity and widespread practice.
23 Widespread practice cannot last one day. It must, of
24 course, last a few days or a few months or a few years.
25 You may respond when it comes to the Defence
1 case. In any case, we are now in the course of
2 re-examination. So I would allow the Prosecutor to put
3 his question.
4 MR. SMITH:
5 Q. If the HVO wanted to secure the route between
6 Vitez and Busovaca, is it militarily necessary to cause
7 the destruction, and in the particular case of Jelinak,
8 the killing to secure that route?
9 A. No. Jelinak is a long way away from that
10 route. Jelinak is here (indicating), and this is the
11 main route linking Vitez and Busovaca, and all that you
12 would require to do to ensure the security of that
13 route is push out up to the highest ground in order
14 that you have a good field of view and field of fire,
15 in order to picket that route as we've described, and
16 therefore, Jelinak, I think, is far to far to the
17 north, with several hills between it and the road, to
18 be of any relevance, certainly with regard burnt bodies
19 with limbs chopped off, et cetera, dead livestock and
20 burnt-out civilian houses.
21 Q. Can you ring the villages of Jelinak and
22 Loncari on that exhibit? Thank you. Probably with a
23 red --
24 A. Sorry. I beg your pardon. (Marks)
25 Q. I would like to ask that same question of you
1 in relation to the village of Ahmici. Was it, in your
2 opinion, militarily necessary to cause the damage and
3 the killing that you saw right into the village of
4 Ahmici and right up the road, in fact where you went,
5 in order -- if that was an objective, in order to
6 secure that route? Was that damage and that killing
7 and that injury militarily necessary? Is there another
8 way of doing it?
9 A. It is absolutely unnecessary to destroy
10 civilian houses, especially undefended ones that have
11 no signs of fortification, should I say. Certainly not
12 necessary to maim or injure or attempt to kill or kill
13 children or old people, or livestock, for that matter.
14 The way to do it is to basically close with and destroy
15 any armed units that are in that village, take any
16 prisoners of war; and any civilians or refugees who are
17 causing a disturbance, to use a provost unit to secure
18 them so that they don't interfere with the security of
19 your operation and the lines of communication. I don't
20 see any point in destroying a village and its people to
21 conduct that intent.
22 Q. Apart from those four men that you saw with
23 rifles at the beginning of the village, were there any
24 other obvious legitimate military targets within the
25 village, like military installations, communications
1 centre, anything that would tend to suggest that it was
2 an obvious military target?
3 A. In the village on the day of the 16th, I
4 saw -- and subsequently anyway, I saw no dug-in
5 positions, sangars, communication centres, any
6 weapons. All I saw which gave me a feeling of anything
7 military was four or five men at about 11.00 who were
8 not in uniform and were carrying AK-47s.
9 Q. And if only for my own clarity, can you
10 explain to the Court what a sangar is?
11 A. A sangar is an Indian name for a defensive
12 position which is built up from the ground with a
13 series of stones or rocks or sandbags, a defensive
15 MR. SMITH: No further questions, Your
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is
18 no objection to the witness being released.
19 Major Woolley, thank you so much for coming
20 here to court to give evidence. You may now be
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
23 (The witness withdrew)
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Let me thank the Prosecution
25 for kindly providing us with this list of witnesses.
1 It is agreed that it is not in the proper order. You
2 will sort out the order maybe on Monday so that Defence
3 counsel will know how you will start. I wonder whether
4 you have already included the witness, the lady that
5 the Court is going to call? I had no time to check.
6 So we will have to include -- it's not on the list. We
7 will include -- yes?
8 MR. TERRIER: No, Your Honour, it is not on
9 the list, and another witness does not appear on the
10 list, a gentleman who is waiting in the witness room.
11 We had planned to hear him this afternoon, but I don't
12 think it will be possible. It is rather late already.
13 So I think we should add the name of this witness to
14 the list, in fact his name should appear in the first
15 place on the list of the witnesses to be heard Monday.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: In the old list,
17 No. 5. Actually, he has not requested any protective
18 measures, so we can mention his name. No. 5?
19 MR. TERRIER: I believe it is, yes, Your
20 Honour. He has asked for protective measures, Your
21 Honour. Although it is not mentioned on the list, he
22 has asked for protective measures, so let us not
23 mention his name. Yes, No. 5.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: He was scheduled for this
25 afternoon, and then -- he will be the first one Monday
2 MR. TERRIER: Yes, he will be the first one.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: We will also add the name of
4 the lady who should come over here probably on Tuesday,
5 Wednesday, I don't know. We will make sure through the
6 Unit for the Protection of Victims and Witnesses.
7 All right. Thank you. I hope that soon we
8 will receive the submissions, the Defence counsel
9 submissions or suggestions concerning the visit to
10 Ahmici if, of course, you are prepared and willing to
11 submit those suggestions.
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Today.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Today? Wonderful. Thank
14 you. So we will adjourn until next Monday at 9.30.
15 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
16 4.53 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
17 the 5th day of October, 1998, at
18 9.30 a.m.