1. 1 Wednesday, 30th September, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.15 a.m.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the

    5 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    6 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and

    7 Vladimir Santic also know as "Vlado".

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.

    9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Good morning. Mr. President,

    10 just a short announcement on the order of witnesses for

    11 today. We've already informed Defence counsel that

    12 we'll be putting witness number 6 on first before

    13 witness number 5 because of witness number 6's

    14 obligations to be elsewhere.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Of course, we are

    16 sorry about this short delay, and there may be problems

    17 at the detention unit, but I will send a note to the

    18 commanding officer so that in future we will not have

    19 to wait.

    20 We thought we should start with the

    21 proceedings without the accused, because we might take

    22 about five to ten minutes to discuss procedural

    23 matters. There are two points in particular.

    24 One point, which is of some importance, is we

    25 have now decided to go to Ahmici on the 20th of

  2. 1 October, which is a Tuesday, to visit Ahmici on Tuesday

    2 the 20th of October. And we have to draw up a sort of

    3 itinerary, and for this we need the submissions of

    4 Defence counsel other than Counsel Krajina. I wonder

    5 whether those commissions are ready, because we would

    6 need them today so we can take them into account while

    7 making those plans.

    8 I was also wondering whether we could have,

    9 from either party or both parties, some sort of rough

    10 indication about Ahmici. I was thinking there should

    11 probably be a short history of Ahmici, and what is even

    12 more important is the social composition of this

    13 village, say, the level of education and the sort of

    14 jobs, I mean, the occupation of inhabitants, whether

    15 they were farmers, what sort of job they had, whether

    16 they were working -- I mean, a rough idea. I am aware

    17 that this is very difficult to have a breakdown of

    18 statistics, but it might be helpful also to have an

    19 idea of the social background and also the history of

    20 this village. This was my first problem.

    21 The second matter is about the Witness SA,

    22 the lady, you remember. We have now decided to call

    23 this witness as a court witness, and we would like to

    24 seek your views about how to go about the matter. I

    25 mean, the examination of this particular witness.

  3. 1 We would be inclined to suggest that we

    2 Judges would start off by putting questions to this

    3 witness, and then she could be cross-examined by

    4 Defence counsel and re-examined by the Prosecutor. I

    5 think this will be in the interests of justice and also

    6 would be appropriate. Of course, she would have to

    7 be -- how shall I say -- protected by the unit, and the

    8 unit should be in charge of this witness when she comes

    9 here, and should also explain how things go on in

    10 court, because I'm sure that she does not know how to

    11 proceed.

    12 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Your Honours.

    13 Yes. In fact, this witness will be called in

    14 conformity with Rule 98 of this Tribunal, so this

    15 witness is no longer a Prosecution witness as had been

    16 the case until then. This witness has not been proved

    17 by the Prosecution, so I do think that indeed Your

    18 Honours should be the first ones to question this

    19 witness, and then I think that the Prosecution should

    20 be entitled to examine the witness and then the Defence

    21 counsels could question her. I think that this order

    22 is the one which should be respected, Your Honours, the

    23 Prosecution and then the Defence. But maybe this is a

    24 personal view that you do not share.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: But you agree, of course,

  4. 1 with the fact that the witness should be protected by

    2 the Victim and Witnesses Unit, and I myself favour the

    3 view that a representative of the Victim and Witnesses

    4 Unit should be present in the courtroom to give her a

    5 psychological support.

    6 MR. TERRIER: Absolutely, Your Honour.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: But then you think that the

    8 Judges should begin first and then the Prosecution and

    9 then the Defence; is that right?

    10 MR. TERRIER: That is quite right.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: So let us turn towards the

    12 Defence counsel to see what they think of your

    13 proposal.

    14 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

    15 As far as the question of calling and hearing the

    16 witnesses -- the witness, I think that the Defence

    17 counsel of Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic could say a few

    18 words on that, because we're dealing with a witness

    19 testifying to facts which they are interested in.

    20 As far as your request is concerned, that is

    21 that you -- we give you some background information,

    22 that is for the Trial Chamber, on Ahmici, the Defence

    23 counsel will look into the matter and perhaps in the

    24 course of the day we'll inform you of that matter.

    25 We're going to ask somebody to prepare information of

  5. 1 that kind for the Trial Chamber, and we're then going

    2 to give you an answer in the course of the day. I

    3 don't know if there are any other matters that you

    4 mentioned.

    5 At the same time, I would like to apologise,

    6 when discussing preparations for the trip and

    7 everything that should be looked at during the trip, it

    8 is true that our colleague Mr. Krajina did not think

    9 about the matter but Defence counsel has different

    10 views on this issue. Some of them think that they have

    11 nothing to draw your attention to specifically because

    12 it does not stem from their Defence cases, whereas the

    13 others think that this would be disclosure of strategy,

    14 Defence strategy or Defence tactics, but at any rate,

    15 we'll be informing you in due course, perhaps after the

    16 first break, of how things stand and the stand of

    17 Defence counsel. Thank you.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Of course, we are

    19 not asking you to make submissions about the trip. If

    20 you prefer not to submit anything, you are free to do

    21 so. It's just because the Defence Counsel Krajina made

    22 submissions, we thought that other Defence counsel

    23 might also wish to propose to the court particular

    24 items to be seen and so on. But you are free to

    25 refrain from submitting anything.

  6. 1 As to the background information, you don't

    2 need to rush. You can give us this background

    3 information in one week or ten days. In any case,

    4 before we go there. Thank you. Counsel Radovic?

    5 MR. RADOVIC: As my colleague Mr. Pavkovic

    6 has said that Defence counsel for the brothers

    7 Kupreskic will be saying a few words, and my colleague

    8 Mrs. Glumac and myself have different standpoints, we

    9 would like you to decide.

    10 I do agree with the proposal made by the

    11 Prosecutor that the Defence be last in questioning the

    12 witness, because that is in keeping with the legal

    13 system which we come from, whereas my learned colleague

    14 Mrs. Glumac feels that there should be -- that we

    15 should question the witness before the Prosecutor. So

    16 we're in your hands completely, and we shall abide by

    17 your ruling. Thank you.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: I may be wrong. I thought

    19 that Counsel Slokovic-Glumac was not going to set out

    20 her views. So do you want to say a few words about

    21 this particular point, who should examine this witness

    22 first, you or the Prosecution.

    23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Good morning, Your

    24 Honours. I think that we are in a position, and as

    25 this is not our witness or the witness of the accused,

  7. 1 this is a court witness and as he was called, so after

    2 the introductory questions by the Trial Chamber,

    3 according to regular procedure, we shall take part in

    4 the cross-examination and then the Prosecutor will be

    5 interviewing the witness, but my colleague Mr. Radovic

    6 thinks that it should be otherwise. So it will be

    7 according to your ruling. That is to say we -- our

    8 role comes up in cross-examination. Thank you.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Our ruling is as follows:

    10 There will be, first, questions from the court, then

    11 the Prosecutor, then Defence counsel.

    12 And we will make plans, that when she comes

    13 she can be heard in court the next day so that she

    14 doesn't need to stay here too long, because this is to

    15 be, for her, quite stressing.

    16 All right. We can now bring in the witness.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Could I raise something about the

    18 on-site visit, which is the actual conduct of the

    19 visit. Is anybody going to speak during the visit?

    20 Are matters going to be pointed out to the Trial

    21 Chamber or not? There are obvious advantages in not

    22 having anything said, but there may be difficulties if

    23 people want to point something out. I would be

    24 grateful if the parties would give some consideration

    25 to that. It must be done in an orderly fashion.

  8. 1 (The accused entered court)

    2 (The witness entered court)

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

    4 MR. RADOVIC: We shall indicate some of the

    5 elements which we should like you to see, and in that

    6 sense we shall partially be disclosing our Defence

    7 tactics, but as we're doing this after the Prosecution

    8 has finished presenting his evidence, then it is not

    9 important whether we're going to disclose part of our

    10 tactics at that particular time or in the

    11 introduction. The essential part of our Defence

    12 tactics will be made known to you when we show you what

    13 we feel you should see. Thank you. And we'll write it

    14 down, of course. You'll have it in writing.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier.

    16 MR. TERRIER: Yes, I would like to answer

    17 Judge May's question. The Prosecution yesterday handed

    18 over to the Court a description of Ahmici, and in

    19 particular, a description of the sites in Ahmici which

    20 the Prosecution thinks are a good thing for you to

    21 visit. I think it would be a good thing that during

    22 this visit the representatives, both of the Defence and

    23 the Prosecution, make a certain number of observations

    24 to Your Honours. I think it is useful, and I don't

    25 think it poses any problems insofar as the Chamber is

  9. 1 perfectly capable, to make the adversarial principle be

    2 respected.

    3 Of course, if observations are made they will

    4 be heard by the other party, and the other party can

    5 answer these observations if they don't share what is

    6 said. The accused will not be present, that is a

    7 fact. That is something that we have thought about.

    8 Nonetheless, we think that the adversarial principle

    9 will be respected if both the Defence and Prosecution

    10 are represented in Ahmici. So I don't think there's

    11 any difficulty in that particular situation. You will

    12 be able to hear both what the Defence and the

    13 Prosecution has to say.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Let me just add, as a

    15 footnote, that we have already made provision for

    16 having both audio and video recording of the whole

    17 visit so that there will be a record. In addition,

    18 minutes will be taken by an official of the registry.

    19 So everything will be on paper and video recording.

    20 Mr. Moskowitz?

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I wonder if -- Your Honours,

    22 if it is clear, at this point, from SFOR the kind of

    23 access that the Court and counsel will, in fact, have

    24 to visit various areas in Ahmici. On the several

    25 occasions that I was there, I found my access quite

  10. 1 limited by SFOR in where I could go, and I don't know

    2 if that sort of attitude has changed with SFOR or

    3 whether we'll have more access. And that may, I think,

    4 inform the Court as to what the best way would be to

    5 converse with counsel. And, of course, I do agree with

    6 Judge May that there could very well be difficulties in

    7 communication and in drawing attention of the Tribunal

    8 to certain things and then other counsel not being

    9 present to listen and to make comments.

    10 It might be useful to think about limiting

    11 contact or conversation to questions that the Tribunal

    12 has specifically to ask to counsel rather than to

    13 encourage counsel to point to the Tribunal, "Look here,

    14 look there." I think it might be a bit of a problem,

    15 and that I think the Tribunal should be in total

    16 control of the on-site visit and to make the decision

    17 as to when and how it should communicate with Defence

    18 and Prosecution.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. As for

    20 SFOR, let me tell you that I gather that SFOR is

    21 waiting for our itinerary, and in light of our

    22 suggestions will decide whether or not we may have

    23 access to particular areas.

    24 Good. Let us move on. Counsel

    25 Slokovic-Glumac, would you like to continue with the

  11. 1 cross-examination of the witness?

    2 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac

    3 (continued):

    4 Q. Good morning, Witness Y. We have received

    5 the marked maps with the plan of defence that we saw

    6 yesterday. I'm now going to give you the map with the

    7 house numbers, and for the record, could you tell us

    8 where the line went in relationship to the houses that

    9 are marked on the map and are denoted with a number?

    10 I don't think you need draw it in. You could

    11 just dictate it to us according to the numbers on the

    12 map. I think that would be sufficient.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: He will have to take the

    14 original exhibit then.

    15 A. Could you explain to me what you actually

    16 want me to do once more?


    18 Q. The lines that you made, the defence lines

    19 which were positioned, and you said that you had agreed

    20 upon them on the 15th, and you drew them on to the map,

    21 referring to Ahmici, upper, middle and lower, and

    22 Pirici. So tell us, please, beside which houses,

    23 looking at the numbers on the map, the numbers denoting

    24 the houses, where these lines passed in relation to the

    25 houses on the map. They're marked by numbers.

  12. 1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we can't hear

    2 the witness.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: You need the microphone.

    4 A. Twenty-one, 22, 23, 26, 27. There are no

    5 houses further on, so there are no numbers either.


    7 Q. Up to 31 you mean?

    8 A. Somewhere here, exactly here (indicating).

    9 Q. Above number 33?

    10 A. Thirty-one, yes.

    11 Q. So that is the line in Lower Ahmici. What

    12 about in middle Ahmici in relation to the houses once

    13 again?

    14 A. Seventy-one, 70, 69, 67, 64, 63, 62. I think

    15 that's it.

    16 Q. Thank you. And now for Upper Ahmici,

    17 please.

    18 A. Sixteen, 215, 213, 208, 205, 203, 200.

    19 Q. And now for Pirici?

    20 A. Two hundred fifty-nine, 258, 255, 254, 251,

    21 250.

    22 Q. Tell us, please, whether the situation in

    23 1993 was such that people in the village were engaged

    24 as soldiers of the BH army, and this would stem from

    25 your testimony -- that's why I'm asking you -- or

  13. 1 whether they were in the guard units, that is to say,

    2 that they had some tasks joined to the army in the

    3 village, and I'm talking about the military-able men?

    4 A. The able-bodied men had obligations along the

    5 frontlines towards the Serbs, and that was the members

    6 of the 325th brigade.

    7 Q. But did they have an obligation, and where

    8 did they perform this obligation on the line?

    9 A. Yes, it did exist, but on the line,

    10 frontline, towards the Serbs exclusively.

    11 Q. So that means they were mobilised; can we say

    12 that?

    13 A. A part of them were.

    14 Q. Tell me, please, whether you know that a

    15 general mobilisation was proclaimed in

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina by the President of the presidency,

    17 Alija Izetbegovic?

    18 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

    19 Q. Do you know whether this was in a particular

    20 period or, if you don't know, did you hear about any

    21 lists, population lists, concerning mobilisation being

    22 drawn up? You worked in the command, so you must have

    23 known about that.

    24 A. I don't know about that, but I do know that

    25 we worked on this with the aim of forming a brigade.

  14. 1 That's all I know.

    2 Q. Did you have any lists of the former

    3 Territorial Defence units?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Why didn't you have these lists?

    6 A. Because all the papers had remained in Vitez

    7 with the HVO.

    8 Q. And in Vitez, you did not have a municipal

    9 command post of the BH army?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Where Sefkija Dzidic was the commander?

    12 A. This was formed later on, but at that time,

    13 the municipal command in 1992, I don't quite remember

    14 whether it was '93 as well.

    15 Q. Because many witnesses have testified to the

    16 fact that the Territorial Defence was wholly taken over

    17 by the Bosniaks, and that after that, the BH army was

    18 established, and that all the records and lists had

    19 remained with the Bosnians.

    20 A. I don't know exactly, but I don't think they

    21 remained in the hands of the Bosnians.

    22 Q. Very well. Do you know when the BH army

    23 began to be set up?

    24 A. I don't know the exact date, but I do know

    25 that the Patriotic League and the development of the

  15. 1 army through the Patriotic League and Territorial

    2 Defence, and later on it became an army, but I don't

    3 recall the exact date.

    4 Q. What year would that be? What year was the

    5 Patriotic League set up?

    6 A. In 1991, '92, I don't know exactly. I don't

    7 know about the Patriotic League.

    8 Q. And what about the BH army?

    9 A. The BH army I think was set up at the end of

    10 1992 and the beginning of 1993, that is its initial,

    11 the first steps towards forming the army.

    12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: We're going to refer to

    13 the orders related to the general mobilisation. I

    14 should therefore like the usher to take copies of the

    15 order, and I would like to ask the witness to have a

    16 look at this document.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D12-2.


    19 Q. Please, in view of the fact that during 1992,

    20 at the end of '92 and the beginning of '93, until the

    21 conflict in Ahmici, you worked on the formation of the

    22 325th brigade, are you familiar with the information

    23 provided in this order, because this served as legal

    24 grounds for you for calling up people and asking them

    25 to join the BH army?

  16. 1 A. First of all, I didn't work on this, I only

    2 helped people who were working and who were in charge

    3 of these papers, and this is the first time I have seen

    4 these orders.

    5 Q. So you didn't even know the general

    6 mobilisation was declared?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. You didn't know about that, so how did you --

    9 how did you muster these people? Not everyone was a

    10 volunteer, I imagine, so on what basis did you call

    11 them up? There is an obligation, during general

    12 mobilisation, to accept call-up papers and to respond;

    13 right?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. So you must have known what the legal grounds

    16 for this were.

    17 A. I repeat, I only helped these people.

    18 Q. But you said that you were working in the

    19 command. In the village you were helping and over

    20 there you were helping too?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Could these contents be controversial or are

    23 you simply unfamiliar with this?

    24 A. I am not familiar with this.

    25 Q. Tell me, when the army of the Republic of

  17. 1 Bosnia-Herzegovina was established, do you know which

    2 corps were formed, and this broader Vitez area,

    3 Vitez-Busovaca-Zenica, this region, where did it

    4 belong?

    5 A. I know that our brigade belonged to the 3rd

    6 Corps.

    7 Q. How many corps were set up; do you know that?

    8 A. Four, I think. I think four were set up.

    9 Q. And the 3rd Corps covered which area?

    10 A. I don't know exactly.

    11 Q. Did it include the Zenica area; do you know

    12 that?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I kindly ask the usher

    15 to hand in these papers too. This is the decision to

    16 set up the corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

    17 and on the establishment of the army of Bosnia and

    18 Herzegovina.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D13-2.


    21 Q. Well, what about the information provided

    22 there; is it correct to the best of your knowledge?

    23 A. I am familiar with the corps that are

    24 mentioned here, and these zones of responsibility, that

    25 I don't know about. I just know that our brigade

  18. 1 belonged to the 3rd Corps. And the 3rd Corps, which

    2 zone of responsibility it had, that I do not know.

    3 Q. The decision on the establishment of corps of

    4 the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you

    5 are not denying this date that is here, that is also

    6 the establishment of the army?

    7 A. I don't know exactly.

    8 Q. Tell us, in view of the fact -- or, rather,

    9 let us go back to your work again. You worked at the

    10 command, on these lists of men. Do you know what

    11 happened to people who came to the Vitez area as

    12 refugees? Were they included and in which way were

    13 they included or, rather, were they mobilised? Were

    14 they sent to certain units? Were they supposed to

    15 report to Territorial Defence headquarters? The

    16 command? Where?

    17 A. I think they were supposed to do so; that is

    18 to say, according to the territorial principle,

    19 according to where they were staying, in which parts of

    20 the village. They simply came in and reported to these

    21 units in the command of the brigade, part of them.

    22 Q. If they stayed there, were they supposed to

    23 stay on longer, if they got a house? Was this an

    24 obligation that they took upon themselves?

    25 A. No, no. People would simply stay where there

  19. 1 was enough room, where there was enough space, where

    2 they were accepted by local people, so there were no

    3 obligations involved.

    4 Q. Were records kept?

    5 A. Well, to the extent possible.

    6 Q. Were there any problems and were additional

    7 papers presented in this period at the end of 1992 and

    8 1993? If a military-age man wanted to leave Bosnia and

    9 Herzegovina, did he have to get special permits from

    10 the authorities in charge?

    11 A. I don't know. No. I don't know. I think

    12 that at that time, if people wanted to leave the

    13 country, I don't think they reported it to someone,

    14 they would simply take care of their papers and leave.

    15 Q. In Ahmici, there were families where the wife

    16 and the children would leave and the husbands would

    17 stay behind. These were refugees. However, they

    18 couldn't get all the right papers. Do you know

    19 anything about that? Were they stopped in a way?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. (redacted). Yesterday you

    22 said that that house had a very strong basement and

    23 that therefore it was envisaged as some kind of

    24 improvised shelter; is that correct?

    25 A. Yes, yes. It was in a small ravine.

  20. 1 Q. Tell me, was there an evacuation plan for

    2 civilians?

    3 A. Well, let me say one thing. There were no

    4 plans. It was only that we had agreed amongst

    5 ourselves. But plans, in the sense of military plans,

    6 real plans, they did not exist. So it is only that we

    7 agreed amongst ourselves.

    8 Q. And also tell me, since at that time there

    9 was civilian defence too and it was involved in various

    10 matters and it was partly involved in the

    11 implementation of evacuation and even planning of

    12 evacuation, do you know whether, through the civilian

    13 defence in the Vitez municipality, evacuation plans

    14 were made for some villages that could be jeopardised,

    15 for example, the village of Ahmici?

    16 A. I don't know.

    17 Q. Do you know a person called Fuad Zeco?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Do you know which post he held in 1992, 1993,

    20 in addition to being employed as a veterinarian?

    21 A. No. I don't know. I only know him as a vet.

    22 Q. Was he a kind of commander of civilian

    23 defence units? Do you know anything about that?

    24 A. I don't know exactly what he did. I think he

    25 did work in the civilian defence, but what he exactly

  21. 1 did there, I don't know.

    2 But could I clarify this a bit further? He

    3 worked on civilian defence matters, and this civilian

    4 defence, which was attached to the brigade, it was

    5 supposed to go and help the army up at the frontline,

    6 you see?

    7 Q. They didn't do things related to working out

    8 evacuation plans?

    9 A. No. That, I don't know.

    10 Q. Do you know how many people were involved?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. I checked the transcript, and certain names

    13 were not included, so I wish to ask you about this

    14 again. These are persons who we mentioned as soldiers

    15 under the command of a squad leader. I don't need

    16 this. It is the text in the diary of the 14th of

    17 March, and this person was elected squad leader and his

    18 soldiers are the following persons from the village.

    19 First of all, a person called Nasko. Is that

    20 Nasid Ahmic?

    21 A. I think so.

    22 Q. The person called Lato, is that Latif Ahmic?

    23 A. I think so.

    24 Q. Huso? Do you know who that is?

    25 A. There are several Husos and also there are

  22. 1 two Latif Ahmics.

    2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters couldn't

    3 hear Defence counsel.

    4 A. There was a Huso in the middle part of

    5 Ahmici.


    7 Q. Do you know his last name?

    8 A. I think it was Krdzalic.

    9 Q. Hazro? Hazrudin Ahmic?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Osman? Was it maybe Budo Osmancevic?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Alaga?

    14 A. Alaga is not from that part of the village, I

    15 think.

    16 Q. Alaga Ahmic, he is from the lower part?

    17 A. Yes, he's from the lower part.

    18 Q. Is it possible that he is that Alaga?

    19 A. It's possible.

    20 Q. Muamera?

    21 A. I don't know what Muamera you mean.

    22 Q. Could it be Muamera Pjanic?

    23 A. It could.

    24 Q. Munir? Munir Ahmic?

    25 A. Yes, there is a Munir Ahmic.

  23. 1 Q. And Samir. Do you perhaps know his last

    2 name?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Is this a man from the village by the name of

    5 Samir or is it a refugee who was staying there? Is

    6 that a customary name?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. In line 19, Muamer Pjanic, you said that it

    9 was him. You said "Yes." You said that it is possible

    10 that that is that person?

    11 A. Yes, it is possible.

    12 Q. Other things that we should go through,

    13 various lists, and I would like to hear what you have

    14 to say in connection with these people. Do you know

    15 who were members of the BH army and who had weapons?

    16 You knew people in the village, right, especially

    17 military-age men?

    18 A. Well, mostly, yes.

    19 Q. Hajrudin Pjanic?

    20 A. I'm not sure who was a member. I can answer,

    21 but I'm not sure whether they were members of the 325th

    22 brigade or not.

    23 Q. Well, yes. Try.

    24 A. What did you say once again?

    25 Q. Hajrudin Pjanic?

  24. 1 A. I'm not sure about him.

    2 Q. And weapons? Did he have any weapons?

    3 A. I don't know.

    4 Q. Senus Pjanic?

    5 A. He was a member.

    6 Q. Weapons?

    7 A. I think he did have weapons.

    8 Q. Muamer Pjanic?

    9 A. I do not recall.

    10 Q. That is probably the Muamer Pjanic you

    11 mentioned to be on this list, so that will mean that

    12 he's a soldier.

    13 A. I do not remember, really.

    14 Q. Weapons?

    15 A. No, no, he didn't have any.

    16 Q. Mirsad Ahmic, son of Eso?

    17 A. I think he was a member.

    18 Q. Weapons?

    19 A. I don't think he had any.

    20 Q. Ahmic Munir?

    21 A. Yes, he was a member.

    22 Q. Weapons?

    23 A. I don't think he had any.

    24 Q. Ahmic Nedzib?

    25 A. I'm not sure whether he was a member.

  25. 1 Q. Weapons?

    2 A. I think he had weapons.

    3 Q. Ahmic Zijad?

    4 A. I don't know about him.

    5 Q. Weapons?

    6 A. I don't know.

    7 Q. Ahmic Zahir?

    8 A. I don't think that he was a member or that he

    9 had any arms.

    10 Q. Ahmic Alaga?

    11 A. I don't know about him.

    12 Q. We said that Ahmic Alaga was on a list.

    13 A. Yes, yes. He's on the list, but I don't know

    14 his status, really.

    15 Q. Wouldn't he be a member of the BH army if he

    16 was there on the squad?

    17 A. Possibly, but I'm not sure.

    18 Q. Ahmic Nezir?

    19 A. I don't know. Again, I don't know.

    20 Q. Weapons?

    21 A. I don't think he had any.

    22 Q. Ahmic Nurija?

    23 A. He was a member.

    24 Q. Weapons?

    25 A. No, he didn't have any.

  26. 1 Q. Ahmic Vehbija?

    2 A. I don't know his status.

    3 Q. Weapons?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Ahmic Abdulah?

    6 A. I don't know.

    7 Q. Weapons?

    8 A. I don't think he had any.

    9 Q. Ahmic Munir?

    10 A. I think he was a member, but I don't know

    11 whether he had any weapons or not.

    12 Q. Ahmic Muris?

    13 A. He was a member. He didn't have any weapons.

    14 Q. Ahmic Mehmed, son of Sudzuka?

    15 A. I don't know his status.

    16 Q. Weapons?

    17 A. I don't think he had any.

    18 Q. Ahmic Fahrudin? Fahro?

    19 A. There are two of them -- I don't know. I

    20 don't know his status.

    21 Q. One played an instrument and the other one --

    22 A. I don't know his status.

    23 Q. Bilic Hazrudin?

    24 A. He was a member.

    25 Q. Weapons?

  27. 1 A. I think he had some.

    2 Q. Bilic Mehrudin, his brother? Yes.

    3 A. I don't know his status at that time.

    4 Q. And weapons?

    5 A. I don't think he had any.

    6 Q. Ahmic Sedik, son of Sakib?

    7 A. He was a member.

    8 Q. Weapons?

    9 A. I don't know. I think he was in the police

    10 in Vitez. I'm not too sure. I don't know.

    11 Q. These policemen, did they have weapons? Did

    12 they keep their weapons, these reserve policemen who

    13 were in the village?

    14 A. No. In the village, they didn't have any

    15 weapons, and up there, where they carried out their

    16 duties, I imagine they would.

    17 Q. How many reserve policemen were there in the

    18 village; do you know that?

    19 A. I don't know exactly.

    20 Q. Could there have been ten of them?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Five?

    23 A. Maybe.

    24 Q. Ahmic Sulejman, Sakib Baricin's?

    25 A. Yes, he was a member.

  28. 1 Q. Weapons?

    2 A. I don't know. I'm not quite sure.

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 Q. Weapons?

    6 A. I don't know.

    7 Q. Zahid Ahmic?

    8 A. He was a member.

    9 Q. Weapons?

    10 A. I don't know.

    11 Q. Ahmic Mirnes.

    12 A. He was a member? I don't know whether he had

    13 any weapons.

    14 Q. Ahmic Salih?

    15 A. I don't know his the status.

    16 Q. Ahmic Latif. That would be one of the

    17 soldiers from the village again.

    18 A. Well, there are two Ahmic Latifs in the

    19 village. Both were members.

    20 Q. Weapons?

    21 A. I don't know whether they had any.

    22 Q. Ahmic Latif?

    23 A. I don't know his status.

    24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Sabahudin?

    25 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't catch the

  29. 1 surname.

    2 A. He wasn't a member and he did not have any

    3 weapons.


    5 Q. Ahmic Mensur?

    6 A. He had no weapons and he wasn't a member.

    7 Q. Pezer Zakir?

    8 A. I don't know his status.

    9 Q. Weapons?

    10 A. I don't know.

    11 Q. Pezer Osman?

    12 A. I think he was a member, and I think he had a

    13 rifle.

    14 Q. Pezer Redzo?

    15 A. He was a member. He had no weapons.

    16 Q. Pezer Muhamed, the driver?

    17 A. I don't know his status. He had some private

    18 business.

    19 Q. Rako Jahija?

    20 A. I don't know his status.

    21 Q. Rako Mehmed?

    22 A. I don't think he was a member or that he had

    23 weapons.

    24 Q. Osmancevic Budo?

    25 A. I don't know who that is.

  30. 1 Q. We said that it was an individual called

    2 Osman, who is also on the list of the soldiers

    3 mentioned, from the unit mentioned, to which the text

    4 in the diary refers. Osmancevic Budo, nicknamed Osman?

    5 A. I really don't know who that could have

    6 been.

    7 Q. Muratovic Budo?

    8 A. I don't know his status.

    9 Q. Pezer Omer?

    10 A. I don't think he was a member, and he didn't

    11 have weapons either.

    12 Q. Pezer Suad?

    13 A. I don't know who that is.

    14 Q. Redzib's son?

    15 A. I don't know that individual, Pezer Suad.

    16 Q. Pezer Sefik?

    17 A. I don't believe that he was a member.

    18 Q. Ahmic Naser?

    19 A. I think he was a member, but he did not have

    20 any weapons.

    21 Q. Ahmic Esudin, called Eso?

    22 A. I think he was a member.

    23 Q. Weapons?

    24 A. I don't know.

    25 Q. Ahmic Sukrija?

  31. 1 A. I don't know his status.

    2 Q. Weapons?

    3 A. I don't know.

    4 Q. Krdzalic, the father and son. It would be

    5 Huso and his son?

    6 A. Huso, yes, he was a member, but I don't know

    7 about his son. Weapons, I don't know whether he had

    8 any weapons.

    9 Q. His son?

    10 A. I don't know about the son at all.

    11 (redacted)

    12 A. I don't think he was a member.

    13 Q. Weapons?

    14 A. I don't know.

    15 Q. Huskic Rifet?

    16 A. He was probably a refugee. I don't know.

    17 Q. Rizvanovic Esad?

    18 A. I don't know at all.

    19 Q. Ahmic Hazrudin, known as Hazro?

    20 A. I don't know his status.

    21 Q. Ahmic Nasid?

    22 A. I don't know whether he was a member.

    23 Q. Once again, he is an individual from the

    24 list, nicknamed Nasko. That would probably be a

    25 soldier who was there. Weapons?

  32. 1 A. I don't think he had any.

    2 Q. Kermo Elvedin?

    3 A. I don't know whether he was a member.

    4 Q. Weapons?

    5 A. I don't think so.

    6 Q. Pezer Sezahija?

    7 A. I don't know his status.

    8 Q. Ahmic Nermin, Rifet's son?

    9 A. I think he was a member.

    10 Q. Weapons?

    11 A. I don't know.

    12 Q. Berbic Muris?

    13 A. He was a member.

    14 Q. Weapons?

    15 A. I don't think he had any.

    16 Q. Berbic Vahidin, know as Musa.

    17 A. He was a member.

    18 Q. Weapons?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Do you know whether somebody from the village

    21 gave him a hand launcher?

    22 A. To whom?

    23 Q. To Berbic Vahidin, called Musa, with

    24 grenades, hand-held launchers with grenades?

    25 A. I don't know.

  33. 1 Q. Hukic Suljo?

    2 A. I think he was a member.

    3 JUDGE MAY: Mrs. Glumac, if we're going to

    4 make sense of this we're going to need a list. At this

    5 moment the names are being read out, naturally enough,

    6 the transcript is not always at all clear. At some

    7 stage we're going to need a schedule if you're going to

    8 rely on this evidence, a schedule with these names on,

    9 and the witness's evidence about them so that we may

    10 know who it is accepted was a member, who it is

    11 accepted had weapons, and who it's denied. Are you

    12 going to rely on this evidence?

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: We're going to supply

    14 the interpreter service, when we conclude this section

    15 here, the testimony of the witness, we shall be

    16 supplying them with a list of witnesses -- with the

    17 list that we read out. And the official list, I don't

    18 think we have all the data, and that is why we're using

    19 our witnesses, but we shall be supplying the Trial

    20 Chamber with a list of these names, because very often

    21 we have to use this method to arrive at the names, and

    22 this is an essential part of our defence, and we shall

    23 be contacting the interpreter service and control the

    24 names and listen to the tape again probably.

    25 As I say, this is an essential part, and we

  34. 1 cannot come by a list of this kind. There is no

    2 uniform list which would state that so and so was a

    3 member. So we have to ascertain, ourselves, how many

    4 of them there were and their status, because we had to

    5 compile lists from the different lists that exist,

    6 because they're not only complete lists and this is the

    7 only method of doing that. Unfortunately, I know it is

    8 very tiring and boring for you, but there is no other

    9 way in which we can accomplish this.

    10 JUDGE MAY: That, Mrs. Glumac, does not

    11 matter. What does matter is that we deal with it

    12 fairly expeditiously. How many more names have you

    13 got?

    14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: There are still some 40

    15 names.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Could you please make

    17 sure that we have, in due course, a list, and against

    18 the list this witness's evidence, so whether it is

    19 accepted or not that the name, the particular person

    20 was a member, and whether it's accepted or not that the

    21 person had a weapon. And might I also suggest there's

    22 some space on it for any further evidence that there

    23 might be about those particular names, otherwise, it's

    24 very difficult to follow.

    25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Very well, Your

  35. 1 Honour. Thank you. We shall do that. The problem is

    2 how to arrive at that information. We have different

    3 types of lists, but we shall comply to the best of our

    4 ability.

    5 Q. Very well. Thank you. Hukic Mujo?

    6 A. I don't know his status.

    7 Q. Hukic Budo?

    8 A. The same for him.

    9 (redacted)

    10 A. I don't know exactly.

    11 Q. He is from upper Ahmici?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. You must have seen him around.

    14 A. I don't know his status.

    15 Q. Weapons?

    16 A. I don't suppose that he had any.

    17 Q. Patkovic Muharem?

    18 A. I don't think he lived in Ahmici.

    19 Q. Pezer Zikrija?

    20 A. He was a member. I think he had a rifle.

    21 Q. Faoka's sons, the two of them?

    22 A. I know that one was a member. I don't know

    23 about the other.

    24 Q. Can you tell us the name?

    25 A. Ahmic Fikret.

  36. 1 Q. Did he have any function in Upper Ahmici in a

    2 sort of command? Was he in charge in any way in Upper

    3 Ahmici to perform certain duties of a military nature?

    4 A. I don't recall. I don't think he did.

    5 Q. Pezer Ahmet?

    6 A. I don't know about his status.

    7 (redacted)

    8 A. I don't think he was a member.

    9 Q. Weapons?

    10 A. No.

    11 (redacted)

    12 A. I don't believe he was a member.

    13 Q. Weapons?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. Ahmic Sead. They are Zuhda's sons?

    16 A. I don't think they were members.

    17 Q. Arms?

    18 A. I don't think he had any.

    19 Q. Ahmic Senad?

    20 A. Yes, he was a member.

    21 Q. Weapons?

    22 A. I think he did have some.

    23 Q. Ahmic Latif?

    24 A. Member.

    25 Q. Weapons?

  37. 1 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

    2 Q. Hrustanovic Enes, Meho's son?

    3 A. He was a member.

    4 Q. Weapons?

    5 A. I apologise. I think that Hrustanovic Enes

    6 did not live in Ahmici at the time.

    7 Q. Sisic Senad?

    8 A. He was a member.

    9 Q. Weapons?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Ahmic Zeir?

    12 A. He was a member.

    13 Q. Weapons?

    14 A. I think he did have weapons.

    15 (redacted)

    16 A. I don't know his exact status.

    17 Q. Weapons?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Berbic Muris?

    20 A. I don't know his status.

    21 Q. Weapons?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Ahmic Asim from Zume?

    24 A. I don't know his status.

    25 Q. Weapons?

  38. 1 A. I think he had some weapons. He was a hunter

    2 so he probably had hunting weapons. He was a hunter

    3 and I think he did have some.

    4 Q. Ahmic Hazim from Pirici?

    5 A. Yes, he was a member.

    6 Q. Weapons?

    7 A. I think he did have some.

    8 Q. Ahmic Azim, Rasim's son, the shoemaker?

    9 A. I don't know his status.

    10 Q. Ahmic Nesib?

    11 A. The same goes for him. I think that at that

    12 time -- no, no, he wasn't.

    13 Q. Pezer Fadil?

    14 A. I can't remember that man.

    15 Q. (redacted)

    16 A. I think he was a member.

    17 Q. Weapons?

    18 A. I don't know.

    19 Q. Danac Mirsad, nicknamed Mirso?

    20 A. I think he was a member.

    21 Q. Weapons?

    22 A. I don't know.

    23 Q. Ahmic Rasim. We already asked that. Do you

    24 know?

    25 A. He was a member. I don't know whether he had

  39. 1 any weapons or not.

    2 Q. Pezer Omer?

    3 A. I don't know his status.

    4 Q. Pezer Ismet?

    5 A. I don't know.

    6 Q. From the lower mosque. That's where he

    7 lived.

    8 A. I don't know his status.

    9 Q. Patkovic Dervis?

    10 A. Also.

    11 Q. Reuf Podojak?

    12 A. I don't know anything about them.

    13 Q. Podojak Semir?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. Elvir Mehmed?

    16 A. I don't know. I don't know their respective

    17 statuses.

    18 Q. Dzidic Muharem?

    19 A. I don't know his status.

    20 Q. Dzidic Nedzad?

    21 A. I think Nedzad was a member of the army but

    22 I'm not sure.

    23 Q. And weapons?

    24 A. I don't know whether he had any.

    25 Q. Ahmic Nesib from Zume?

  40. 1 A. I cannot remember that man.

    2 Q. A driver?

    3 A. I don't know his status.

    4 Q. Ahmic Dzevad, Nesib's son?

    5 A. I don't know his status.

    6 Q. Dedic?

    7 A. Likewise.

    8 Q. Dedic Fariz?

    9 A. Likewise.

    10 Q. Ahmic Mehmed, Zume kod Ogreva?

    11 A. I doesn't think he was a member.

    12 Q. Strmonja Mustafa?

    13 A. I don't know.

    14 Q. Strmonja Miralem?

    15 A. I think he was a member.

    16 Q. Weapons?

    17 A. I do not recall.

    18 Q. Strmonja Nermin?

    19 A. I do not remember his status.

    20 Q. Pezer Nevzudin?

    21 A. I think he was a member.

    22 Q. Weapons?

    23 A. I don't know.

    24 (redacted)

    25 A. He was a member.

  41. 1 Q. Weapons?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. Ahmic Cazim? Those are Santici too, by the

    4 river Lasva. Do you know this Ahmic Cazim?

    5 A. I don't know who you're referring to.

    6 Q. It says here by the Lasva River, so they are

    7 from Santici.

    8 A. I don't know. I cannot remember.

    9 Q. Ahmic Zenur?

    10 A. I don't know his status.

    11 Q. Ahmic Amir?

    12 A. Likewise.

    13 Q. Ahmic Fahrudin, Asim's son?

    14 A. I don't know his status.

    15 Q. Bilic Ramo?

    16 A. I don't know.

    17 Q. Bilic Zijad?

    18 A. I don't know. I mean, I know the people but

    19 I don't know their status, whether they were members of

    20 the army, whether they had any weapons, et cetera.

    21 Q. And the people I mentioned to you just now,

    22 are most of them military-aged men, the right age to be

    23 soldiers?

    24 A. That I don't know.

    25 Q. Also, do you know a person called Jasar

  42. 1 Zubalj. He was a radio operator?

    2 A. Jasar you mean?

    3 Q. Oh, Jasar. Was he a member?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Weapons?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. You said that rather as -- that you started

    8 setting up these village guards in 1993 and that you

    9 didn't know what was happening in 1992. Do you know

    10 anything about the establishment of the Territorial

    11 Defence and its development in that period?

    12 A. Nothing special. I already said that I was

    13 in this mixed unit, so I was only involved in that

    14 job.

    15 Q. When were you appointed to man these guns?

    16 A. In April 1992.

    17 Q. Was this an appointment made by the SPS,

    18 within the SPS factory?

    19 A. Well, it was this way: I got a paper from

    20 Vitez, Krizanac Stipo was head of the department then,

    21 and I got this paper and I went to report in.

    22 Q. And already in April 1992, already at that

    23 time, were certain lists being made in villages? Were

    24 some kind of units being set up at that time? This was

    25 a year before the attack. Was this at least on paper?

  43. 1 Were any records made? Do you know anything about

    2 that?

    3 A. No, no. I don't know whether units were

    4 organised.

    5 Q. But is it possible?

    6 A. Yes, it's possible.

    7 Q. All right. This is part of Varup Enes, and

    8 this diary of Varup Enes is in the Blaskic files, and

    9 we are talking about three pages from this diary, and

    10 it dates back a year before the conflict, and already

    11 85 men were on this list for forming units at the level

    12 of a company. These were notes that were taken in

    13 passing. It is not very well charted, but you can see

    14 what it's all about, and you will also see its number

    15 in terms of it being admitted as evidence in the

    16 Blaskic trial.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

    18 D40/2.

    19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I would

    20 like to put a few questions, but identity could be

    21 revealed directly. So I appreciate it if we could move

    22 into closed session, or perhaps we could take a break

    23 at this point and continue after the break in closed

    24 session.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: How much time do you need now

  44. 1 to complete your cross-examination?

    2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Fifteen odd minutes,

    3 not more than that.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Let's go on so you may

    5 conclude your cross-examination and then we will take a

    6 break.

    7 (Closed session)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  45. 1












    13 Pages 3450 to 3469 redacted in closed session













  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (The witness withdrew)

    13 (Open session)

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: While we are waiting for the

    15 witness, I will ask the Prosecutor when they think we

    16 will receive the list of witnesses for the next week.

    17 Friday or tomorrow?

    18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will try tomorrow, but it

    19 may be Friday.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    21 (The witness entered court)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Captain

    23 Woolley. Could you please stand and make the solemn

    24 declaration?

    25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

  2. 1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    2 truth.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    4 seated. Counsel Pavkovic?

    5 MR. PAVKOVIC: I'm sorry, Mr. President,

    6 because you have already moved on, but we would kindly

    7 request the following: We have been informed that

    8 tomorrow and the day after tomorrow are not working

    9 days, so could the Prosecutor please provide us with a

    10 list so that the Defence could prepare itself for these

    11 witnesses that are to be heard next week. Why not

    12 today rather than on Friday? Why not provide a list of

    13 witnesses earlier?

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: In response to that, we are

    15 still evaluating which witnesses are going to be called

    16 and when, and we will provide it, if possible,

    17 tomorrow. I think today it is probably not going to be

    18 possible because we still haven't finalised our list

    19 for next week. Part of the problem is that this last

    20 witness went on quite a bit longer than we anticipated

    21 and we have other witnesses who are here and then other

    22 witnesses who have obligations, so we are trying to

    23 balance things out. We will meet today after court to

    24 try to finalise that list, and hopefully by tomorrow we

    25 will have a list.

  3. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Tomorrow morning, could

    2 you try to provide it --

    3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will try.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Tomorrow. By the way, you

    5 know that we have now two more weeks, even less.

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This is also part of our

    7 thinking.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. And don't forget that

    9 next week, we intend to call the lady, the witness, we

    10 mentioned before.

    11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This will be next week.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Next week, yes.

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Do we know which day or what

    14 day at this point?

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: One day after she is here in

    16 The Hague so that she is not obliged to stay too long.

    17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will see -- I

    19 hope that by tomorrow both Defence counsel and the

    20 Court will receive this list.

    21 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.


    23 Examined by Mr. Smith:

    24 Q. Major Woolley, you've just recently been

    25 promoted, is that correct?

  4. 1 A. That's correct.

    2 Q. Since making this statement you were, in

    3 fact, a Captain but in the last few months have been

    4 promoted to Major?

    5 A. That's correct, yes.

    6 Q. Can you tell the Court your occupation at the

    7 moment?

    8 A. I'm a Major in Her Majesty's armed forces in

    9 Britain. I'm squadron leader of a reconnaissance

    10 Squadron of the 9th/12th Royal Lancers.

    11 Q. When did you join the British army?

    12 A. In July 1987.

    13 Q. And in November 1992 did you attend in

    14 Bosnia?

    15 A. Yes, I was deployed there.

    16 Q. And what was the purpose for going to Bosnia?

    17 A. It was for providing humanitarian aid to

    18 beleaguered people within Bosnia as part of UNPROFOR.

    19 Q. Where were you based?

    20 A. Throughout most of the time in Vitez.

    21 Q. How long was your tour in Bosnia?

    22 A. Six months.

    23 Q. And prior to going to Bosnia can you give the

    24 Court an idea of any other field operations that you've

    25 been involved in?

  5. 1 A. I served with the United Nations in Cyprus in

    2 1990. I was called back from there to go to the Gulf

    3 in 1991, and then I was deployed to Bosnia in 1992.

    4 Q. Can you describe to the Court the training

    5 that you received in relation to being an officer in

    6 the British army?

    7 A. I spent a year at the Royal Military Academy

    8 Sandhurst. Of course, that's general training. And

    9 prior to going to Bosnia, received a couple of months

    10 of training. And each year we conduct army training

    11 directives which include things such as first-aid and

    12 the law of armed conflict.

    13 Q. When you arrived in Bosnia, and more

    14 specifically at about March/April 1993, can you explain

    15 to the Court the general military situation in the

    16 Vitez area, the Vitez opstina, and the ethnic origins

    17 of the people who lived in that municipality and

    18 nearby?

    19 A. The ethnic origins of the people of the Vitez

    20 opstina were pretty much 50 per cent Croat and 50 per

    21 cent Muslim. When we arrived in November'92, the two

    22 ethnic groupings, I think socially and militarily, were

    23 pretty much in loose alliance. Their common aggressor

    24 was the Bosnian Serbs.

    25 Q. And the particular names of the military

  6. 1 groupings that related to the Bosnian Muslims and the

    2 Bosnian Croats?

    3 A. The Croat army was known as the HVO or the

    4 HVO (pronounced phonetically), and the Muslims as the

    5 Bosnian armija.

    6 Q. In terms of the Vitez municipality and

    7 nearby, can you explain to the Court where any

    8 confrontation lines may have been with the Bosnian

    9 Serbs?

    10 A. In that area, the Bosnian Serb frontline was

    11 pretty much to the north-west of Vitez in an area called

    12 Turbe, just north-west of Travnik.

    13 Q. Can you tell the Court whether there was any

    14 presence at all of Bosnian Serb military forces within

    15 the municipality of Vitez or the immediate area outside

    16 of that?

    17 A. No, there weren't. No, there weren't.

    18 Q. In April you attended a village called

    19 Ahmici; is that correct?

    20 A. That's correct.

    21 Q. Had you been familiar with that village prior

    22 to attending there?

    23 A. I'd driven past it but was unaware, like so

    24 many of the other small villages around there, that it

    25 was just another village.

  7. 1 Q. Can you tell the Court what the predominant

    2 population was in relation to ethnic group?

    3 A. Predominantly Muslim, quite clearly. And a

    4 minaret stands -- or stood very prominent in the front

    5 part of the village.

    6 Q. And the general situation in the Vitez

    7 municipality in April 1993 before you attended Ahmici,

    8 can you explain to the Court what that situation was in

    9 military terms?

    10 A. As a military -- as a young man, as a young

    11 military commander, I wasn't quite as aware of the

    12 broad nature of what is going on in that there was not

    13 so many significant examples that I was aware of that

    14 showed a Muslim-Croat or Croat-Muslim aggression. They

    15 seemed to be fairly in loose alliance. But on the

    16 night of the 15th there were tangible -- there was

    17 tangible evidence that clearly there was a Croat

    18 aggression starting.

    19 Q. Can you tell the Court where you went to on

    20 the night of the 15th and what facts have enabled you

    21 to come to that conclusion?

    22 A. I was asked by my company commander to go to

    23 a rendezvous point at a junction just short of a

    24 village called Putis, which is just slightly beyond the

    25 Busovaca junction. And I met him there with a Muslim

  8. 1 commander from Zenica, and we entered the village of

    2 Putis because we had heard that there was some HVO in

    3 the area.

    4 We drove up into the village and there was a

    5 series of firings -- firing taking place over our heads

    6 until we got into the village. It then stopped, and we

    7 then saw, through our night sights, soldiers in the

    8 woodland, which we had our own guns trained on, but

    9 they'd stopped firing so we were unable to take any

    10 action.

    11 Q. It was possible for you to identify who, in

    12 fact, these soldiers were that were firing towards you?

    13 A. No, not at the time.

    14 Q. You said that you were in the village with a

    15 Muslim military commander; is that right?

    16 A. That's right, yes.

    17 Q. Is that area, the village of Putis, anywhere

    18 near a Serb frontline or stronghold?

    19 A. No. No, no.

    20 Q. So is that what led you to your conclusion

    21 that it was from the HVO?

    22 A. Yes. I understood the village to be, from

    23 charts, demographic charts in our operations room, that

    24 this was a Muslim -- predominantly Muslim village, and,

    25 therefore, it would be unusual for Muslims to be

  9. 1 shooting at themselves or their families or friends.

    2 Q. Apart from this incident of the shooting, was

    3 there anything else significant in that village in

    4 relation to damage, or destruction or --

    5 A. Not at that time, no. Not at that early

    6 stage.

    7 Q. And you -- how did that situation resolve

    8 itself with the Muslim commander?

    9 A. Our presence seemed to create a stalemate,

    10 and, therefore, we withdrew. It was night and it was

    11 difficult, obviously, to see, and, therefore, we

    12 withdrew and recorded the incident as it happened and

    13 left it at that.

    14 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened on the

    15 morning of the 16th of April? Was there anything of

    16 significance that you heard of whilst you were at the

    17 Vitez base that morning?

    18 A. I had got up, and I was sitting in the

    19 officer's mess waiting to be tasked as part of the A

    20 Company 1 Cheshire, the battle group company that was

    21 on duty. And as I had been attached to the Cheshires,

    22 I had a different type of vehicle, I had a Scimitar

    23 vehicle, which is a lot less armoured than the Warriors

    24 which the Cheshires use, and, therefore, had been

    25 instructed not to go into town where there were

  10. 1 reports -- I say "town" meaning Vitez -- there were

    2 reports there that an action or some sort of aggression

    3 was taking place with regard Croat and Muslim.

    4 Therefore, I sat in the mess unable to go out, rather

    5 frustrated. And a friend of mine, colleague, a

    6 commander from the Cheshires, came back from Vitez

    7 telling us that the area was generally a battle zone, a

    8 lot of civilians and soldiers dead in the streets,

    9 houses burning, explosions, gunfire. Generally an

    10 unsavoury situation taking place in Vitez and the

    11 surrounding areas of Vitez.

    12 Q. Does this morning stick out in your mind

    13 quite significantly compared to the rest of our tour?

    14 A. Absolutely and very vividly. Up until that

    15 point, the local area had pretty much been in some sort

    16 of -- well, there was nothing significant that stood

    17 out in that area up until this point. And the morning

    18 of the 16th, with the background of the night of the

    19 15th, there had seemed to be this sort of explosion of

    20 activity between the Croats and the Muslims that

    21 previously had not been there.

    22 Q. You heard reports from a colleague of yours

    23 as to what was occurring in Vitez. Did you

    24 subsequently leave the base and go to the village of

    25 Ahmici?

  11. 1 A. It was not long after he told me about this

    2 that I was then called to the operations room by the

    3 Operations Officer of the Cheshire battle group, and

    4 tasked to go to a small village called Ahmici, because

    5 they understood that there was some action or activity

    6 going on there that needed to be investigated and

    7 reported upon, and, therefore, I was dispatched down to

    8 the village with two of my Scimitars and one Warrior,

    9 with an interpreter, a photographer and two Irish

    10 ranger soldiers on board.

    11 Q. Can you briefly explain to the Court the

    12 difference between a Scimitar vehicle and a Warrior

    13 vehicle and what they're used for?

    14 A. A Scimitar vehicle is an 8 tonne light

    15 aluminium vehicle, with three crew stations, which is

    16 obviously used for reconnaissance, whereas a Warrior is

    17 a 35 tonne, very heavily built infantry fighting

    18 vehicle that can take three crew stations but also

    19 seven infantry men in the back. They have the same

    20 guns however.

    21 Q. And can you describe the situation as you

    22 drove towards the village of Ahmici, what was happening

    23 on the way, and when you received your first

    24 impressions of what was occurring or what had occurred

    25 in the village of Ahmici.

  12. 1 A. From deploying from the base of Vitez and

    2 taking the ring road around the edge of Vitez through

    3 to Dubravica, it was quite clear from looking at the

    4 general landscape that there was a series of plumes and

    5 pillars of smoke coming from areas, group of houses,

    6 none that I can specify, and also outlying villages,

    7 and general battle noise, explosions and gunfire.

    8 Q. I would like to show you now a copy of an

    9 aerial photograph which is, in fact, a reduced copy of

    10 the large photograph behind you which has been marked,

    11 and if you can explain to the Court where, in fact, you

    12 got your first impressions of what was occurring in

    13 Ahmici.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked

    15 Exhibit 229.

    16 MR. SMITH:

    17 Q. Major Woolley, is that area familiar to you?

    18 A. Yes, it is. It's pretty much the area of

    19 Ahmici.

    20 Q. You can see on that exhibit, so that's

    21 Exhibit P229, you can see on that exhibit there is a

    22 number of markings. Did you provide the information

    23 that led to those markings being placed on the

    24 exhibits?

    25 A. That's correct.

  13. 1 Q. And if you can briefly explain to the Court

    2 what the Roman numerals mean in terms of chronology?

    3 A. From I to VI they signify significant places,

    4 buildings and situations that I conducted -- where I

    5 had conducted various actions throughout the day,

    6 basically regarding first-aid of injured civilians.

    7 Q. Now, on the day of the 16th of April, you

    8 attended the village on one occasion, and then did you

    9 attend there on a second occasion or near to it?

    10 A. I attended the village in the morning for

    11 about four hours, and then in the evening I was on the

    12 main road of the village, in this area here.

    13 Q. And in relation to the duration of your first

    14 visit, can you till the Court which points relate to

    15 your first visit?

    16 A. Point I here -- do you want me to explain it

    17 in detail?

    18 Q. Not in detail, but just the points that

    19 relate to --

    20 A. Point I is a house where I got involved with

    21 a casualty. Point II is a place where I stopped and

    22 observed some soldiers. Point III is a house where I

    23 dealt with another casualty. Point IV is a place where

    24 I dealt with five casualties.

    25 Q. Can you explain to the court Point VI?

  14. 1 A. Point VI is a place just off the main road

    2 where I recovered five bodies, with the assistance of

    3 another Lieutenant, in the evening of the 16th of

    4 April.

    5 Q. And Points A and B relate to?

    6 A. A and B are two houses which, at about 3.00

    7 on the 16th, were very clearly and freshly on fire, two

    8 civilian houses.

    9 Q. If we can go back to the time that you first

    10 approached the village. From about what location on

    11 that map did you obtain your first impression of what

    12 was occurring or what had occurred?

    13 A. This road here is the road from Vitez, and

    14 this road bends round into a small river or ravine. It

    15 was on this high ground here that I, at first,

    16 identified, from looking at my map relating to the

    17 ground, that this was the village of Ahmici. And

    18 looking over to my left, I could see that it was a

    19 village that had plumes of smoke rising from it, and,

    20 therefore, obviously had been in some kind of

    21 activity.

    22 Q. Could I ask you to mark that location with a

    23 red texter that's in front of you, with an X?

    24 A. (Marks).

    25 Q. Was there anything further you can state to

  15. 1 the Court that will help them understand your first

    2 impressions? You mentioned plumes of smoke rising from

    3 houses.

    4 A. Yes. As I approached the turnoff to the

    5 village -- sorry, the turn into the village, generally

    6 speaking there was -- the area was deserted. There was

    7 sporadic gunfire, the odd explosion, houses alight and

    8 mainly smoking, which generally told me that there had

    9 been some sort of destruction, whether military or not,

    10 and I was unaware at this point, but probably.

    11 Q. And at about what time did you obtain your

    12 first impression? What time did you arrive in the

    13 village?

    14 A. It was about 11.00 in the morning.

    15 Q. And what was your view as to what was

    16 occurring or what had occurred? What was the

    17 impression that you got?

    18 A. I did not adopt an impression until I

    19 actually -- I was under the impression that there had

    20 been some action and some destruction, but I didn't

    21 adopt a particular impression with regard to any ethnic

    22 grouping until I spoke to a woman in the village.

    23 Q. You said the village was deserted when you

    24 arrived. Can you explain how this woman approached you

    25 when you first arrived in the village?

  16. 1 A. As I approached the village along this small

    2 track, or actually driving through the village or the

    3 first part of the village. I got to this point here on

    4 the track, and had my three vehicles, and I had a woman

    5 and a couple of people behind her beckon --

    6 particularly the woman, beckon me from behind -- or,

    7 shall I say, from the archway of her door to come and

    8 speak to her. She was reluctant to take -- to remove

    9 herself from the cover that the door provided her.

    10 Therefore, because I was unaware of what she was trying

    11 to tell me, I took the prudent measure of going to talk

    12 to her in case it was an ambush or a mine up ahead that

    13 I was unaware of.

    14 Q. And the house that she came from was the

    15 house marked with the circle with the 14 next to it; is

    16 that correct?

    17 A. That's correct, yes.

    18 Q. That's the house near the lower mosque?

    19 A. That's right, yes.

    20 Q. Looking at these two exhibits that I produced

    21 to you now, P81 and P79, I ask they be produced to

    22 him. Can you tell the Court who, in fact, is in those

    23 exhibits? I think that may be the wrong exhibit. P79

    24 and P81.

    25 If you can look at Exhibit P81. You

  17. 1 mentioned that this woman beckoned you and you attended

    2 at the house. With the use of that exhibit, can you

    3 explain to the Court what happened inside that house,

    4 what you did and what you saw?

    5 A. I spoke to the woman. I had an interpreter

    6 with me at the time, and you can see the interpreter on

    7 the left-hand side of the picture. We went inside the

    8 house and she, the woman who you can see here in the

    9 picture, showed me her friend or relative, I am not

    10 aware of who he was, the man in the centre here, who

    11 was injured on the bed -- shall I say the sofa.

    12 This is the house, house 14, in question.

    13 This is the woman who beckoned me. And the man had

    14 received a gun-shot wound to the back, which I

    15 discovered when I removed a jersey -- sorry, removed

    16 his jersey up his back and saw an entrance and an exit

    17 wound, and what I believe the round had gone into his

    18 elbow, causing him basically two injuries from the same

    19 bullet. No dressings had been placed on him, and,

    20 therefore, I took out a field dressing, which you can

    21 see in the exhibit, and placed one on his elbow and one

    22 around his waist and his back.

    23 Q. Was the man saying anything to the

    24 interpreter?

    25 A. Not particularly. He was in a lot of pain.

  18. 1 I can't remember him actually saying anything

    2 specifically, but he was in a lot of pain, moaning a

    3 lot.

    4 Q. Can you describe the clothing the man was

    5 wearing?

    6 A. He was wearing a jersey. You can see in the

    7 picture a diamond-patterned jersey.

    8 Q. And what was the result of your first aid?

    9 What did you --

    10 A. Well, it was clear from -- that the injury --

    11 he'd been bleeding, and they had not made much of

    12 attempt to stem the bleeding. And having looked at the

    13 sofa which was saturated with a lot of his blood, quite

    14 a lot, I would say he'd been there a few hours, also,

    15 which the nature of the blood, the darkness of a lot of

    16 the blood which had congealed, we, therefore, placed,

    17 first of all, a dressing on his elbow, and then put a

    18 dressing around his back.

    19 Q. And what was the general atmosphere in the

    20 house like at that time, what was the mood?

    21 A. One of shock and panic and fear. And in the

    22 back of the house there was another room where the

    23 majority of the family, mainly women, old ladies and

    24 some children, were hiding, and were quite clearly in

    25 shock and were very scared, and really didn't come out,

  19. 1 but you can see in this picture a couple of the elder

    2 members of the family who had.

    3 Q. And looking at the other exhibit, P79. Is it

    4 P79, if I can ask the usher? You're looking at P79.

    5 That further describes the scene; is that correct?

    6 A. That's correct, yes. This is one of my

    7 soldiers, and as you can see we have a dressing around

    8 the waist of the injured man.

    9 Q. And what subsequently happened to the injured

    10 man? Was he taken away or did you leave him at --

    11 A. We attempted to put a drip in him but

    12 failed. We couldn't get a vein, he was quite cold,

    13 having lost a lot of blood. And we were focusing too

    14 much on one incident, where I had not conducted a full

    15 clearance or reconnaissance of the village, and,

    16 therefore, having done probably as much as we could for

    17 him, I felt it necessary to push on up to the village

    18 to ensure our own safety rather than put ourselves in

    19 jeopardy.

    20 Q. And what was the expectation of you in

    21 relation to you attending the village -- in relation to

    22 you attending the village regarding the UNPROFOR base?

    23 A. The expectation or the task I was given was

    24 simply to observe and report on the conditions and the

    25 activities in the village, but it was only through, I

  20. 1 suppose, a human conscience that we get involved in

    2 first-aid and probably took out focus off the overall

    3 task, which was just reporting the incident.

    4 Q. And you drove up the village, is that

    5 correct, up the main road of the village?

    6 A. That's right, yes.

    7 Q. And can you explain to the Court, using the

    8 exhibit, the aerial map, where in fact you went?

    9 A. From the first house, as I've already just

    10 mentioned, 14, we then drove up the village, which is

    11 generally a northerly direction along here, to this

    12 area, which was not actually there at the time, it was

    13 a lot narrower, and then along up the track heading

    14 roughly north-east to Point II where there's a fork in

    15 the track and a tarmac clearing where we could turn

    16 the vehicle, and that was the limit which I explored it

    17 to.

    18 Q. You mentioned that that was an area that is

    19 on the aerial photograph that is not -- was not in that

    20 state as it appears in the aerial photograph back in

    21 1993. Is that that white patch in the middle of the

    22 aerial photograph?

    23 A. That's correct. That's now been bulldozed.

    24 Q. What type of area was it, if you remember?

    25 A. It was a similar sort of area, but it was

  21. 1 just not as large. It was a small tarmaced area and

    2 it's now been increased by, I imagine, two or three

    3 times.

    4 Q. As you went up towards the location at the

    5 top of the village, location II, can you tell the Court

    6 whether your first impressions as to what you believed

    7 had occurred was still the same or had they changed by

    8 the time you got to the top of the village?

    9 A. My opinions weren't changing at that point,

    10 because I'd spoken to the Muslim lady in this Muslim

    11 village, and from what she told me and from what I saw

    12 myself, it was quite clear that there had been a Croat

    13 offensive in the early morning, about 6.00, and that

    14 there were many injured civilians, and some dead ones

    15 as well, and that's the only evidence I had of injured

    16 civilians and burning civilian houses.

    17 Q. And from the route you took to the top of the

    18 village, can you explain to the Court the amount of

    19 damage, if any, that you saw within that village?

    20 A. Yes. Houses were burning. Probably I'd say

    21 in the region of 20 per cent of the houses appeared to

    22 be burning -- or, sorry, were burning. It appeared to

    23 be about 20 per cent. And the road and the area was

    24 deserted to, my view anyway.

    25 Q. In terms of that figure of 20 per cent, what

  22. 1 was your field of view as you went up the road? Was it

    2 to the left and right, or was it further than --

    3 A. It was mainly to the right, which is mainly

    4 to the north-east. There were a lot of houses that we

    5 can see on this aerial photograph which, to me, were

    6 then in dead ground. But from what I could see, there

    7 was probably a larger percentage of 20 per cent, but

    8 overall now, looking at aerial photograph, I would

    9 assess it to be about 20 per cent.

    10 Q. When you got to the top of the village, what

    11 did you do, what did you see?

    12 A. I went to the top of the village to make sure

    13 that I had cleared this sort of whole area for my own

    14 safety and also in order that I could report back to my

    15 superiors and give a report on what I had seen. I

    16 deemed the Point II on the map of the exhibit that we

    17 can see as the necessary limit of what I had to move

    18 to.

    19 When I got -- sorry.

    20 Q. Excuse me for one moment. Did you see any

    21 military activity as you attended to Point II at the

    22 top of the village?

    23 A. I saw no military activity up to Point II.

    24 Just smoking houses, burning houses.

    25 Q. What did you see at Point II?

  23. 1 A. At Point II, I stopped there for about ten

    2 minutes because our attention was caught by soldiers in

    3 the woodlands, which you can see here in this goose

    4 egg, to the north-east. The woodland at the time was --

    5 in April, it was -- there was no foliage, and therefore

    6 it was quite easy to see five or six men, soldiers, who

    7 were dressed in green, with no distinctive badge,

    8 actually in the woods.

    9 Q. Are you able to say from which military group

    10 those soldiers belonged to, despite the fact that you

    11 didn't see the badges on their sleeves?

    12 A. Well, first of all, I knew they were soldiers

    13 as they were carrying Kalashnikov rifles. I would say

    14 that -- I say that they are HVO soldiers, and this

    15 assumption was brought -- I concluded as a result of

    16 their position. They were looking into the village.

    17 The village is Muslim and they were on the periphery of

    18 the village and they were looking into it. It would

    19 seem that if you were a Muslim soldier, you would be

    20 looking out in order to defend the village, and their

    21 position was at the bottom of what I called a reverse

    22 slope, this slope where the wooded feature is here

    23 (indicating). So if the men were Muslim, they would

    24 either need to be closer into the village in order to

    25 defend it or need to be out, up on this high ground, in

  24. 1 order to gain a good field of view in case any further

    2 aggression occurred from the Croats.

    3 However, if a Croat force had come through

    4 this village, clearing it, it could very easily have

    5 formed up at the edge of the village in order to

    6 observe prior to any further attack or to assess the

    7 damage that it actually had achieved.

    8 Q. So that it's on the record, the area which

    9 you identified as five soldiers which you have

    10 concluded were HVO soldiers, that's the area with the

    11 oval circle above the Point II?

    12 A. That's correct, this goose egg shape here.

    13 Q. Everything that you saw that day or any

    14 significant events that you saw that day, did you

    15 record them in a diary?

    16 A. Yes, I did. I had a diary that I filled out

    17 every day, at the end of every day, throughout the

    18 whole of my tour.

    19 Q. In relation to producing a statement that was

    20 requested of you by the Tribunal and coming to court

    21 today, have you used that diary to refresh your memory

    22 as to what you saw?

    23 A. I have.

    24 Q. And in relation to your conclusion about the

    25 HVO soldiers being at the edge of the forest just above

  25. 1 Point II, was that fact recorded in your diary?

    2 A. That was. On that day, it was recorded as

    3 HVO soldiers on that point.

    4 Q. At that stage, were you aware of a War Crimes

    5 Tribunal in operation or going to be in operation?

    6 A. No, I was not.

    7 Q. You were at Point II for about ten minutes;

    8 is that correct?

    9 A. That's correct.

    10 Q. And just to put the Court in some sort of

    11 time frame, you said you arrived at the village at

    12 11.30. How long were you in the first house for when

    13 you were attending to the man with the gunshot wound?

    14 A. Myself, probably between 30 and 45 minutes.

    15 Q. And then you drove to the top of the

    16 village. You were there for ten minutes?

    17 A. Approximately.

    18 Q. You observed the HVO soldiers, and then did

    19 you go to another house?

    20 A. I did. On my way up to Point II, I had

    21 noticed on my right-hand side an elderly man beckoning

    22 me from his doorway into his house, but I ignored him

    23 because my task at the time was to ensure that the area

    24 was clear and that it was safe for my own men, and

    25 therefore, I carried on to Point II. But on my return,

  26. 1 thinking my task done and that I had reported back what

    2 I had seen with regard the destruction of civilian

    3 houses and the one casualty we had seen so far, I then

    4 came across the man again who was beckoning, I

    5 submitted to, and jumped off my vehicle and entered his

    6 house.

    7 Q. Did he explain to you, before you entered the

    8 house, what he wanted you to do?

    9 A. No, he didn't, no. But I could see from the

    10 distress on his face and his gesticulations that he was

    11 obviously in a state and that there was something very

    12 wrong.

    13 Q. Apart from seeing this man beckoning you into

    14 the house, was this the only person that you saw as you

    15 drove from Point I, down by the lower mosque, to Point

    16 II at the top of the village?

    17 A. Yes, that I can recall.

    18 Q. Looking at Prosecution Exhibit P222, I'll ask

    19 you what that, in fact, is an exhibit of, but can you

    20 explain to the Court what you saw inside the house and

    21 what you did?

    22 A. This is an area of the village where -- just

    23 short of the house which you would see off to the left

    24 of this breeze block building here, and this is one of

    25 my vehicles covering the route downwards for our own

  27. 1 security, and this is an armoured ambulance which came

    2 some time after because, if I explain what happened, I

    3 went into the house that the man beckoned me into, and

    4 lying on a makeshift stretcher, makeshift out of

    5 clothes and two branches, was a person who was a

    6 casualty, a large person, elderly, which I initially

    7 believed to be a man, subsequently found to be a woman,

    8 who had --

    9 Q. Go on.

    10 A. -- who had got an injury in the head. As I

    11 went into the house and dealt with this casualty, I

    12 took what was something like a towel, it was a towel, a

    13 tea towel, from around her head to find an exposed

    14 wound, a large wound at the top right rear of her head

    15 which did not have any skull remaining but really just

    16 had brain matter, blood and sinew and what I can only

    17 describe as brain matter, having never seen anything

    18 quite like this before.

    19 Q. What did you do in relation to that wound?

    20 A. Sorry, yes. I took the dirty, saturated

    21 field dressing -- sorry, towel, off the women's head

    22 and replaced it with a fresh field dressing around her

    23 head. She was also suffering -- her breathing was very

    24 weak and very shallow and very slow, and therefore, we

    25 put a plastic airway to assist her breathing into her

  28. 1 mouth, which was quite a struggle. She had one eye

    2 open, her right eye open, and her left eye was closed

    3 with a lot of bruising, which I think was peripheral to

    4 the main injury, and her jaw was very difficult to pry

    5 open in order to get this airway in. We also attempted

    6 to put a drip in her, but she was so cold and her veins

    7 were so -- well, they were not obvious, they were very

    8 further in her, that we couldn't get a drip in her.

    9 Q. Apart from the elderly man and the woman that

    10 you attended to, were there any other people inside

    11 that house?

    12 A. Not inside that house -- sorry. There was

    13 the casualty, the woman, the man who was the husband,

    14 and then there was a few other older men and women in

    15 the house who were obviously distressed but were taking

    16 cover by remaining in the house.

    17 Q. I would ask that you look at Exhibits 215,

    18 216, and 221, and I believe these will describe the

    19 scene which you've just mentioned. Exhibit 215 first.

    20 Can you explain what you see in that

    21 photograph in relation to what you, in fact, did?

    22 A. Okay. This is the woman on a makeshift

    23 stretcher. We can see here the private soldier with

    24 his hand over the airway to see whether she is

    25 breathing or not. You can see the fresh field dressing

  29. 1 that I put around her head, and this is one of my

    2 corporals who is medically trained to a higher level

    3 than anybody else on the team.

    4 Q. What is his name?

    5 A. Lance Corporal Priestly. He was conducting

    6 the majority of the first aid, and here is another

    7 private soldier also in attendance.

    8 Q. Looking at Exhibit 221; can you explain

    9 what's happening in that scene?

    10 A. This is the elderly man had who beckoned me.

    11 This is me conducting some first aid. I think we were

    12 supporting her head or finishing off the tying of the

    13 field dressing. And this is the soldier, again, just

    14 attending generally, and this is my interpreter, and

    15 this is one of the other elderly occupants of the

    16 house, and we are trying to assist her in her

    17 situation.

    18 Q. Looking at Exhibit 216, can you explain that

    19 scene, please?

    20 A. This is Ranger Farmer, the private soldier

    21 just assisting the woman, having gotten the plastic

    22 airway into her mouth and getting her breathing, and,

    23 she, as you see, conscious, although I would describe

    24 her as semiconscious, quite clearly badly injured, as I

    25 say, in the top right-hand part of her head from what

  30. 1 I, with my limited experience, could identify as some

    2 kind of individual shot, a gunshot wound, and nothing

    3 else that I could imagine had caused this.

    4 Q. I would like you to look at two further

    5 photographs which are new exhibits, being marked 394

    6 and 397. That's an internal marking.

    7 THE REGISTRAR: The photographs are marked

    8 230 and 231.

    9 MR. SMITH:

    10 Q. If you look at Exhibit 231 in a moment, can

    11 you explain to the Court that scene?

    12 A. Again, this is me here (indicating) just

    13 attending generally to the first aid of the woman

    14 having had the field dressing on her head. This is the

    15 soldier again assisting, and clearly the interpreter

    16 here was helping with the situation through his ability

    17 to interpret the language, and one of the relatives or

    18 friends in distress of the situation.

    19 Q. Can you describe the atmosphere in that house

    20 to the Court? What was the mood?

    21 A. The mood was shock, fear, panic. I think,

    22 really, "shock" sums it up in that the family, up and

    23 to that point, three hours ago, had their friend, their

    24 relative, going about her normal daily business and had

    25 then been shot in the head, putting her in the

  31. 1 situation we see her now.

    2 MR. SMITH: I would ask that the usher

    3 produce Prosecution Exhibit 230.

    4 Q. And if you could explain that scene to the

    5 court? Sorry, 231.

    6 A. When we had done as much as we could in the

    7 way of first aid in that we had dressed her head and

    8 put an airway in her and failed to get a drip in her,

    9 we then had called an ambulance from the UNPROFOR base

    10 at Vitez which had come up and we had seen in one of

    11 the earlier exhibits, an armoured ambulance, and we

    12 were now placing the woman from her makeshift stretcher

    13 onto a proper army stretcher that you can see here in

    14 order that we can evacuate her from the area of Ahmici

    15 to Travnik hospital.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm afraid we must break now

    17 because we had a meeting at half past 12.00 with other

    18 Judges.

    19 We will resume at 2.00.

    20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.






  32. 1 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. While we are

    3 waiting again for the witness, may I suggest that if

    4 the Prosecutor has some difficulty in handing in a list

    5 of witnesses for next week, they may probably prepare a

    6 list of those witnesses they intend to call, you intend

    7 to call; however, not in the right order, the order may

    8 be sorted out maybe on Monday, so that Defence counsel,

    9 in any case, know who is going to be called next week

    10 and they can prepare over the weekend. We discussed

    11 this matter at lunchtime and we thought that probably

    12 Defence counsel may wish to go back to their own

    13 country or, anyway, take some time off.

    14 (The witness entered court)

    15 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Mr. President. During the

    16 lunch break, we have established a list of the

    17 witnesses. We will hand it over to Defence counsel

    18 this afternoon, but, of course, we may change the order

    19 of appearance of these witnesses.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Smith?

    21 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

    22 Q. Welcome back, Major Woolley. I hope you had

    23 an enjoyable lunch.

    24 A. Thank you.

    25 Q. Where we left off earlier, you visited the

  33. 1 village of Ahmici, and you went to the house, the first

    2 house, where a man was shot, and then you stated that

    3 you went up to the end of the village and had a look

    4 around and saw what you thought to be HVO soldiers.

    5 Then you went down to another house, a house where

    6 there was a woman that was shot in her head. We

    7 started to go through a few photographs, and you were

    8 describing what the atmosphere was like in that

    9 particular house.

    10 At that second house that you went to, can

    11 you explain to the Court about how long you were there?

    12 A. I would say up to an hour.

    13 Q. What was the result of that incident? After

    14 you had given her some first aid, what did you decide

    15 to do and what happened at that point?

    16 A. Having given her first aid to our maximum

    17 ability, we then had her casuvacced, casualty

    18 evacuation, and we then gave a situation report of what

    19 we had conducted and then decided to withdraw from

    20 Ahmici back to Vitez.

    21 Q. Before we move on from this house and

    22 understand the route that you took down further down

    23 the village and what happened to you after that, I

    24 would like to show you two further exhibits which

    25 haven't been tendered in evidence.

  34. 1 The first one is a copy of a house with a

    2 vehicle in front of it which, in fact, Your Honours

    3 have copies, the black and white copies that were given

    4 previously, and the second one is of a destroyed house,

    5 and I would like you to have a look at them, please?

    6 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph with the

    7 house, with the vehicle in front, will be Exhibit 232.

    8 You have a black and white copy of that one. And the

    9 other photograph, Exhibit 233, 2-3-3.

    10 MR. SMITH:

    11 Q. If I can ask the usher to show you the

    12 Exhibit P232, the undestroyed house, and if you can

    13 explain to the Court what that picture is of?

    14 A. This is the house which we came across which,

    15 on our way up to the top of the village, had the man

    16 outside coaxing us to help him and who then we

    17 subsequently helped. It had a number 43 outside the

    18 doorway, and you can see of note is this Rayburn-type

    19 cooker and the breeze block building on its left-hand

    20 side, and here is one of our Warrior vehicles parked in

    21 front of it.

    22 Q. So the assistance that you and your

    23 colleagues gave occurred just inside the front door of

    24 that house?

    25 A. Yeah, just to the right as you go inside the

  35. 1 front door. This is a photograph from the 16th of

    2 April.

    3 MR. SMITH: Right. For Your Honours'

    4 reference, that's the house marked 202.5 on this

    5 witness's exhibit.

    6 Q. If you look at P233, can you explain to the

    7 Court what that is a picture of?

    8 A. This is a photograph I took on the 26th of

    9 April, having been sent back into Ahmici for subsequent

    10 patrolling, and it's the same house as that in the

    11 previous exhibit. This is the same doorway and this is

    12 the room where we attended the woman's needs. You can

    13 see again the Rayburn cooker and the breeze block

    14 building on the left-hand side of the house, and the

    15 fence as well is quite prominent.

    16 Q. So that it is recorded in the transcript, can

    17 you describe the damage to the house?

    18 A. Well, clearly it had been set alight, either

    19 by fire or some incendiary device, removing it of all

    20 its timbers, leaving the brickwork. You can probably

    21 just see beneath that branch the number 43, which

    22 confirms, for the record, that it is actually the very

    23 same house, although the other factors, like the cooker

    24 and the walls and the wall here clearly also show that

    25 that is the same house.

  36. 1 Q. So that house was destroyed between the 16th

    2 and the 26th?

    3 A. This house that the civilian woman lived in

    4 was destroyed between the 16th and the 26th of April

    5 for some extraordinary reason.

    6 Q. This woman was taken away from the house, was

    7 she?

    8 A. She was, yeah.

    9 Q. Was she taken away in an ambulance?

    10 A. In an armoured ambulance.

    11 Q. Was she the only civilian that was taken away

    12 in that ambulance?

    13 A. That's right, yes, she was.

    14 Q. After leaving that house, I think you said

    15 you stayed at that house for approximately an hour?

    16 A. About an hour, yeah.

    17 Q. Where did you go from there?

    18 A. I then drove back down the road from which we

    19 had come up on our way out of Ahmici, but, of course, I

    20 only travelled some 300 or 400 metres before I came

    21 across another house where a woman coaxed me to help

    22 her.

    23 MR. SMITH: I would ask that Exhibit 229, the

    24 aerial photograph, be placed on the ELMO, please.

    25 Q. With a pencil, could you briefly describe the

  37. 1 route you took from the house where the woman was shot

    2 or where the injury was to where you went?

    3 A. This is the house where the woman was shot,

    4 and we then drove back down this narrow part of the

    5 road past a very prominent religious building here onto

    6 this slope here where, from the house marked IV, in

    7 Roman numerals, a woman coaxed me from sort of

    8 the leeside of the building, that is, the sort of

    9 northern side of it, to come and assist her.

    10 Q. I think I've just misled you a little bit a

    11 moment ago. It's not the house where the woman was

    12 shot, it was the house where you attended to the woman

    13 with the injury; is that correct?

    14 A. Sorry.

    15 Q. House number 202.5.

    16 A. 202.5 is the house where the woman had been

    17 shot in the head, the elderly woman, yes.

    18 Q. You don't know whether the woman was, in

    19 fact, shot?

    20 A. Well, I think that the injuries were

    21 consistent with something like a gunshot.

    22 Q. I think I've --

    23 A. I'm sorry.

    24 MR. SMITH: I think I've led this

    25 misunderstanding.

  38. 1 Q. You don't know where, in fact, she received

    2 the gunshot wound?

    3 A. I subsequently heard that she had received

    4 the gunshot down the hill, somewhere down the hill, and

    5 she had been carried by her family or friends up the

    6 hill to her house where she was then under cover.

    7 Q. Thank you. When you arrived at this next

    8 house, the house marked 70 on the aerial photograph,

    9 can you explain what the woman -- a woman said to you

    10 and what you did after that?

    11 A. Yeah. Her gestures really said it all in

    12 that she needed help quite urgently, and the background

    13 of our two previous incidents led me just to follow her

    14 and go into the back of the house, if you like, the

    15 cellar of the house, where the group of people in the

    16 cellar led me to just continue my actions; in other

    17 words, I didn't actually necessarily have a

    18 conversation with her, neither personally or with any

    19 interpreter, because the injured people in the back of

    20 the house led me to continue my actions.

    21 Q. About how many people were in that cellar and

    22 what was the atmosphere like in the --

    23 A. The cellar was very dark; there was no

    24 lighting. There was an awful smell generally of, I

    25 suppose, wounds, and there was also smoke from people

  39. 1 smoking. There were crying children, there was a woman

    2 breast-feeding, there were elderly people, children,

    3 and women, and there was about up to 30 people probably

    4 in the cellar, five of whom had significant injuries.

    5 Q. Did you do anything about those wounds?

    6 A. Yes. The one nearest the door was a small

    7 girl who I believe was about 12 or 13 years old. She

    8 had injuries on her left leg, on the lower limb of her

    9 left leg, and an injury on the inside of her thigh, on

    10 her right thigh, which again I -- were consistent with

    11 some sort of, well, an entry wound that I thought was

    12 either a low calibre, slow calibre bullet or maybe

    13 shrapnel, and we then carried out some first aid of the

    14 left lower limb and the right thigh, the inner thigh.

    15 Q. Did you record that injury in your diary?

    16 A. Yes. I talked about the injuries.

    17 Q. You mentioned the injury of the young girl.

    18 Can you explain the other injuries of the others?

    19 A. Yes. The other one was in the far left-hand

    20 corner of the cellar, it was an elderly gentleman, and

    21 he, when we tried to move him -- well, he was screaming

    22 because -- whenever we tried to move him because of the

    23 pain, but it was something like a pelvis or a hip

    24 injury, somewhere in his midriff that he was injured

    25 either through shrapnel or more probably gunshot

  40. 1 wounds.

    2 Q. What about the other three?

    3 A. The other -- the third man -- sorry, the

    4 third was a man, an elderly man who had got a gunshot

    5 wound to the -- if I recall correctly, the left

    6 shoulder, up in this sort of region here (indicating),

    7 and those three were the most significant, and

    8 therefore we evacuated them in the back of the Warrior,

    9 which has got space for infantry personnel.

    10 There were two others, and I think they were

    11 both men, who had other sort of smaller injuries. We

    12 didn't manage to evacuate them in the end.

    13 Q. Did you record that in your diary as well?

    14 A. Yeah, I talked about five people being

    15 significantly injured from this cellar.

    16 Q. Can you explain to the Court the average age

    17 of these men and what they were wearing?

    18 A. They were wearing civilian clothing, they

    19 were anywhere between maybe 45 and 65 years old. There

    20 was not many men anyway, but they were of that age.

    21 The rest were women and children and elderly women as

    22 well, and, you know, even children or, should I say,

    23 babies of breast-feeding age. All very scared, all

    24 very shocked in this dingy, dark cellar where they were

    25 taking cover.

  41. 1 Q. Did any of the men that you saw, these men

    2 that were injured, did any of them have weapons?

    3 A. Not in the cellar, no, no.

    4 Q. About how long did it take you to tend to all

    5 of these injuries?

    6 A. Probably about a further hour.

    7 Q. Was any drug given to any of these men?

    8 A. Yes. The man in the -- the second man I

    9 talked about who had the hip-type injury or the midriff

    10 injury, we gave him morphine in his thigh because he

    11 was in such pain that when we tried to evacuate him or

    12 move him, he just yelped and screamed, and therefore,

    13 by administering some morphine, it enabled us to then

    14 move him using a sleeping bag, one of our own, as a

    15 stretcher, and we then put him in the back of the

    16 Warrior.

    17 Q. Three -- the most severe casualties went in

    18 the Warrior and the other two stayed at the house; is

    19 that correct?

    20 A. That's correct, yes.

    21 Q. I'd like to show you a photograph in relation

    22 to this location -- or a few photographs, and would you

    23 be able to describe that in relation to what you've

    24 just described to the Court?

    25 A. Yes.

  42. 1 THE REGISTRAR: The first photograph is

    2 marked 234.

    3 MR. SMITH:

    4 Q. Can you try and relate that photograph to the

    5 incident that you've just referred to and the aerial

    6 photograph which you have provided the information?

    7 A. Okay. In the foreground, you can see these

    8 three white boxes. These are the periscopes of my own

    9 scimitar vehicle, and I had climbed back onto the

    10 vehicle -- having already been in the house, I was

    11 climbing back on the vehicle in order to get some more

    12 first aid kit. I then took the opportunity to take a

    13 photograph as a record.

    14 At that time, I had gone forward initially,

    15 discovered this, and the Warrior, as we see in the

    16 middle of the picture, followed me up. I called it up

    17 because we needed some more first aid, as in first aid

    18 kit, and here you can see two soldiers who are running

    19 to the assistance. The house in question is to the

    20 right of this fence, down a slope here, a grass -- a

    21 hillside -- a slope, and we've come down the track from

    22 House number 2 that we talked about up here.

    23 Q. Could you relate that photograph to the

    24 aerial photograph by just replacing the aerial onto the

    25 projector?

  43. 1 A. Yeah.

    2 Q. And can you put the approximate location

    3 where that photograph was taken?

    4 A. Yeah. That is this house here (indicating).

    5 The photograph was taken just on the -- on the slope

    6 just off the bend here. Along the edge of that road is

    7 where that concrete trellis fence is, and this is the

    8 green slope I talked about here, and this is the house

    9 where there was a cellar with these 30-odd occupants --

    10 not occupants but injured civilians.

    11 Q. For the transcript, you've pointed a location

    12 on the main road, the main Ahmici road, in front of the

    13 house marked number 70; is that right?

    14 A. Sorry. I've -- yes, that's the house there

    15 marked 70. Did I misunderstand your question?

    16 Q. Your vehicle was parked in the vicinity --

    17 A. It was parked, yes, exactly where that pencil

    18 is pointing now.

    19 MR. SMITH: Thank you. I'd ask that Exhibits

    20 193, 74, 194 and 195 be produced to the witness?

    21 I'd ask that the witness look at Exhibit 193

    22 first. Thank you.

    23 Q. Looking at Exhibit 193, can you explain to

    24 the Court what this picture is of?

    25 A. This is of the back of the house. The

  44. 1 previous picture had been taken up here on the

    2 hillside, and this is -- because we had no further

    3 ambulance, the ambulance had been tasked and gone, we

    4 then used the back of the Warrior personnel carrier to

    5 take these three, the most significantly injured

    6 people, and put them in the back. So it's in the back

    7 of this house on this, if you like, below-ground-level

    8 cellar that all this activity took place.

    9 Q. Looking at Exhibit number 74, can you

    10 describe that, please?

    11 A. This is the girl who had the two injuries I

    12 talked about, the inner thigh -- I think you can see

    13 just here the injury on the inner thigh where we've

    14 bandaged it, and she had an injury on her left leg.

    15 She, as you can see by her face, is in quite a lot of

    16 distress. I think she was about 12 or 13 years old.

    17 Other members of the family, and as you can see,

    18 civilians, elderly people, women, and children. This

    19 is Lance Corporal Priestly who is giving her some

    20 bandages, some civilian here giving some light to the

    21 situation, our interpreter who is helping console the

    22 girl, and in the background here is the man that had

    23 the injury around the waist. Because of our limited

    24 resources, we were still dealing with the girl who

    25 seemed to be most severely injured. This injury, when

  45. 1 Lance Corporal Priestly and I arrived, was still

    2 bleeding. This man, we then subsequently attended to

    3 and gave him the morphine in order to move him.

    4 Q. And the other men that you assisted, the

    5 other men with injuries, do they appear in that

    6 photograph?

    7 A. I can't see them. There was a man toward --

    8 in this direction here sitting to his right, to this

    9 man's right-hand side, but I can't see him in that

    10 picture.

    11 Q. In any event, at this location, I think you

    12 mentioned there are about 30 people.

    13 A. Yeah.

    14 Q. Is that in the cellar or in and about, behind

    15 the cellar?

    16 A. That was in the cellar initially. They were

    17 all cowering from what had been taking place, but, of

    18 course, our arrival with three armoured vehicles, with

    19 our 30-millimetre guns, I'm sure provided them with a

    20 degree of confidence, in that they then, a few of them,

    21 came out of the back of the cellar. Those sort of more

    22 -- slightly younger adults had the confidence to come

    23 out and assist and to see what was going on.

    24 Q. If you can just briefly describe the

    25 atmosphere in this cellar?

  46. 1 A. Dark, dingy, smoky, frightened people crying,

    2 babies crying, people shaking, elderly people shocked,

    3 I think disbelief at what had happened with their

    4 friends and family, you know, injured in front of

    5 them. Helpless is probably the thing, helpless, until

    6 we arrived and evacuated them.

    7 Q. Looking at Exhibit 194, I think you appear in

    8 that exhibit.

    9 A. Yes. That's me here. I think I had just

    10 come from out of the cellar, and I think we're all

    11 looking at one of the injured people being removed and

    12 put in the back of the Warrior.

    13 Q. And looking at Exhibit 195?

    14 A. This is the young girl on this mattress,

    15 makeshift stretcher, being placed into the back of the

    16 Warrior, which had reversed up to the house, and as you

    17 can see, the people, women, and probably slightly

    18 elderly men had had the confidence to come out and

    19 watch what was going on to their family and friends.

    20 Q. And the Warrior left with the three most

    21 serious casualties?

    22 A. And Lance Corporal Priestly went with them in

    23 order to continue his attendance.

    24 Q. If you can place the -- if I can ask the

    25 usher to place the aerial exhibit on the projector?

  47. 1 Can you tell the Court what you did once you

    2 left this house?

    3 A. Once we had dispatched the Warrior fighting

    4 vehicle with the three injured people, I then returned

    5 from the house here to the road here. In fact, further

    6 down the road, about 200 metres, my two scimitars had

    7 moved further down to spread out in order that they

    8 protect themselves a little bit better. We, having

    9 finished our job, having given some army rations to the

    10 remaining people in the cellar, then decided that we

    11 had done as much as we could, and therefore we returned

    12 to the vehicles.

    13 However, at that time, there had been a --

    14 this is about quarter to 3.00, 2.45, there had been

    15 sort of an increase in the intensity of peripheral

    16 gunfire and explosions, and most significantly was, at

    17 this time, this house with the arrow and the letter "A"

    18 which was fully and freshly ablaze, and because of the

    19 surrounding danger, the four of us, and that is the two

    20 private soldiers I've discussed and the interpreter and

    21 myself, if you like, manoeuvred back in pairs to the

    22 vehicles in order to ensure maximum cover and, in fact,

    23 such was my awareness of this danger that I hid behind

    24 a wall, reluctant to expose myself to any gunfire, and

    25 I called or I shouted to the driver of my scimitar

  48. 1 vehicle to reverse up and collect us so that we did not

    2 have to expose ourselves. But because he had his

    3 engine running, he was unable to hear us, and

    4 therefore, I dashed about 50 yards, 30, 40, 50 yards,

    5 down to the vehicle and jumped in, and then we reversed

    6 up and picked the remaining three men. So there was

    7 five of us in a turret that was designed for two people

    8 taking shelter in this environment which had a burning

    9 house and gunfire and what have you.

    10 Q. You talk about peripheral gunfire. When you

    11 say "peripheral," where do you mean? Outside of the

    12 village? Within the village?

    13 A. I mean possibly in the village, outside the

    14 village as well, but gunfire that was 200 metres or

    15 more away. A lot of time the gunfire can echo around

    16 buildings in built-up areas, but -- and also in this

    17 slightly valley-type area.

    18 Q. You said that when you came out of the house,

    19 the vehicles, your vehicles had moved down the road

    20 somewhat, and you had to attract their attention to try

    21 and take cover in the vehicles. About how long did

    22 that take before you were in a more protected position

    23 within the vehicle?

    24 A. About three, three or four minutes.

    25 Q. Was there a problem with one of the vehicles?

  49. 1 A. Subsequently. The vehicle that I had got

    2 into with the four men was fine and reversed in order

    3 to pick them up, but the vehicle in front had some fuel

    4 carburettor problem, probably as a result of sitting on

    5 the slope for a long time, and it then broke down, it

    6 was unable to start; and sitting in the vehicle, we

    7 then called for a recovery vehicle to come and collect

    8 the scimitar.

    9 Q. The two vehicles had to stay together; is

    10 that correct?

    11 A. Yes. Most of the time they were about a

    12 hundred yards apart.

    13 Q. And in relation to the map, where were those

    14 vehicles whilst you were waiting for assistance with

    15 the breakdown?

    16 A. For the majority of the time I was sitting in

    17 a vehicle just slightly astride the A pointer. In

    18 other words, the house ablaze. I've got photographs of

    19 me sitting next to a coach, which is astride this house

    20 which is ablaze.

    21 Q. During that time did you see another house on

    22 fire? A house or another building?

    23 A. There were lots of houses that were smoking

    24 as a result of being on fire previously, but this was

    25 the most significant which caught my attention. It

  50. 1 could not have done anything other than catch my

    2 attention as I sat 20 or 30 yards from it.

    3 Q. And where was this second house --

    4 A. The second house is --

    5 Q. -- on that particular map?

    6 A. -- is on the pointer with the mark B. The

    7 picture that I have of this, it was taken when we were

    8 recovered and we made our way down the village, and it

    9 was of a house that had been on fire, its remaining

    10 timbers blackened by the fire and smoke coming from

    11 it. And adjacent to it was a barn, which was fully

    12 ablaze. And this is at about 3.00.

    13 The most significant thing is that this

    14 wooden barn was freshly ablaze, which suggested to me

    15 it had only just been set fire to at about 3.00,

    16 because wooden barns don't burn for very long.

    17 Q. Than wooden barn is at location about B?

    18 A. B, yes.

    19 Q. And the other house that was on fire was in

    20 location A?

    21 A. That's correct.

    22 Q. In terms of the state of destruction of the

    23 other house or the state of the fire, can you give an

    24 estimate of when that would have been set alight?

    25 A. Well, again, the wood is the bit that burns,

  51. 1 and the roof, the timbers, are the bits that burn, and

    2 they burn, from my experience, of which I have got

    3 quite a bit now, quite quickly. And within the space

    4 of my wait in the vehicle, at that point, which was

    5 about 40 minutes, the house had been fully ablaze and

    6 had burnt out, completely gutting it of its floor, and

    7 timbers and roof. The roof had fallen in.

    8 Q. I would now like to show you some

    9 photographs, four photographs, of this particular

    10 incident. And can you explain to the court how, in

    11 fact, you came into possession of these photographs?

    12 How is it that you can provide these to us? Perhaps if

    13 you can explain to the Court how you took these

    14 photographs.

    15 A. I took them with my own camera on the day in

    16 order to keep a log and a record of the situation.

    17 Q. And other photographs you are referring to in

    18 your evidence generally, where would they have come

    19 from?

    20 A. All the photographs I am aware of were either

    21 mine or Corporal Penfound, who was the military

    22 photographer whom I went into the village with, and I

    23 gave my camera to him to take these pictures.

    24 Q. He followed your route through the village?

    25 A. That's right. Up until the point when he

  52. 1 went back with the Warrior.

    2 Q. That's with the three injured people?

    3 A. Yes, with the three injured people.

    4 Q. Your Honours, as these photographs form a

    5 series with other photographs that have been tendered

    6 in evidence, I would ask for Exhibit number 137 and

    7 134.

    8 Major Woolley, if once the other two exhibits

    9 are brought to you, if you could put them in some sort

    10 of chronological order as events occurred for you, and

    11 then we'll describe each photograph in detail.

    12 A. This is the house which had the arrow with

    13 the A pointing to next to the coach I was talking

    14 about. And this is the hatch of my own vehicle, and

    15 you can see another vehicle behind here. The house

    16 quite clearly alight. This is at about 3.00. In the

    17 distance you can see what I believe is that religious

    18 building I pointed out earlier.

    19 Q. If you can turn the exhibit over and just

    20 state the exhibit number?

    21 A. 237.

    22 Q. If you could put the aerial exhibit back on

    23 the ELMO and relate, again, where that house is?

    24 A. Where the arrow A points is the house and

    25 just next to it is the track.

  53. 1 Q. And that's the house marked -- pointing --

    2 A. To A (indicating).

    3 Q. And for the record, that's Exhibit P229. And

    4 the next photograph. If you can look at the rear

    5 and state the exhibit number as well.

    6 A. It's 137. This is a better shot of the

    7 house. I think we can see quite clearly how the house

    8 is ablaze, the roof is falling in and the timbers are

    9 burning.

    10 Q. Was that photograph taken whilst you were

    11 stationery?

    12 A. That is right, yes.

    13 Q. Show the next exhibit.

    14 A. Exhibit 236. As I've stated, I was only

    15 sitting here for about half an hour, and within that

    16 time, this is all pivoting around 3.00, the house quite

    17 clearly has burnt out, pretty much burnt out.

    18 Q. When did you see the house first ablaze?

    19 You've obviously seen it whilst the fire was in full

    20 force. Did you see the beginning of that fire?

    21 A. I didn't see it being set fire to, but as we

    22 advanced across the field it was quite clearly ablaze.

    23 And, in fact, I apologise, but I've put this exhibit

    24 slightly out of order, because you can see that this is

    25 before the house was ablaze. At this point I'm on the

  54. 1 vehicle most upward -- most uphill, and I had swapped

    2 vehicles when the other vehicle was broken down. The

    3 previous pictures you saw were when I was just below

    4 this bus, and you can see here the smoke from the house

    5 quite clearly.

    6 This trellis type concrete fence is the fence

    7 that I took cover behind. You can't see it here on the

    8 picture. And at that point my vehicle that I'm sitting

    9 on now was here and had reversed up with me in order

    10 that we picked up the other chaps.

    11 Q. And the house that was set alight is to the

    12 right of the picture, behind that house you see in the

    13 foreground?

    14 A. That's right. It's just behind here, yeah.

    15 Q. So the photographs that have been shown by

    16 yourself are photographs taken from the opposite

    17 direction --

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. -- facing up the hill?

    20 A. Yes. I'm sorry.

    21 Q. And in the background --

    22 A. Sorry.

    23 Q. If you can replace that exhibit. In the

    24 background to the left, that white structure.

    25 A. That's the minaret of Ahmici, still standing

  55. 1 on the 16th.

    2 Q. This is about 3.00 in the afternoon?

    3 A. About 3.00.

    4 Q. And if you can state the number of that

    5 exhibit.

    6 A. 235.

    7 Q. If you can show the next photograph.

    8 A. This is Exhibit 238. This is from what I

    9 believe is roughly the same position. So to the right

    10 of this tree we have -- or a bit further up from this

    11 tree we have the house that I talked about already on

    12 the A pointer. In the distance I can obviously see

    13 another light alight, which is on the pointer B, the

    14 second house, a white house, very significant -- very

    15 clearly you can see a grey drainpipe here, ablaze.

    16 That is about it, I think, for that.

    17 Q. Are you driving past this house --

    18 A. I believe this is --

    19 Q. -- when that was taken or static?

    20 A. I believe this was static at this point. I

    21 don't believe I took any pictures while moving.

    22 Q. You've stated the exhibit number for that?

    23 A. Yes. That was 238. Exhibit number 134.

    24 This is the same house, a white house, and you can see

    25 this grey drainpipe again. Burnt out now. This is all

  56. 1 within, as I say, 30 to 45 minutes, and yet this barn

    2 to the left-hand side is quite clearly ablaze, freshly

    3 ablaze.

    4 The reason why I took this picture was

    5 because here, on the front doorstep, is a man who

    6 appeared to be dead. Well, he was very static anyway,

    7 and he'd either had a nasty fall on the steps or had

    8 been shot as he exited the house.

    9 Q. It's not so clear from the photograph that

    10 that is, in fact, a man. Did you have a better view

    11 when you were there?

    12 A. Well, no better view than that other than the

    13 zoom of my the camera, but on the original photograph

    14 it's quite clear a man has been killed somehow on the

    15 steps.

    16 Q. I think there's another exhibit that we

    17 haven't looked at.

    18 A. I think that's it.

    19 Q. Do you have exhibit -- I asked for Exhibit

    20 155.

    21 A. Yes. This is, again -- we've obviously moved

    22 about 30 metres down the road. This is my vehicle

    23 hatch, and the house is burnt out and the barn is still

    24 ablaze but shot as significant as it was. And you can

    25 see the cars showing it was the same house.

  57. 1 Q. Did you see any soldiers in and about that

    2 area where those houses were alight?

    3 A. There were no soldiers around there.

    4 Q. Where did you go from there? After you saw

    5 this burning barn, where did you head?

    6 A. Soon after this point we were recovered by

    7 the engineers who then took us back to Vitez to recover

    8 the vehicle.

    9 Q. Whilst you were in Ahmici, you mentioned in a

    10 statement that you provided to the Tribunal that you

    11 saw, I think, some men with weapons, which you believed

    12 to be Muslim. You haven't mentioned them in your

    13 testimony. Where did you see -- or did you see any

    14 Muslim men with any weapons, and if you did, where did

    15 you see them?

    16 A. The only men who were Muslim who had weapons,

    17 and I know that they were Muslim because they were

    18 talking to the Muslim lady who -- and this is the first

    19 incident I'm talking about with the injured man, were

    20 about four men who were middle-aged, and a couple who

    21 were reasonably young, 25 or 6, who were not

    22 particularly dressed as soldiers, although I understand

    23 that not all soldiers out there were dressed in

    24 uniform, and they carried Kalashnikov rifles.

    25 MR. SMITH: I'd like to show you a

  58. 1 photograph, and can you tell the Court what this is a

    2 photograph of?

    3 We have no photocopies of this, but we can

    4 supply them on the break. Black and white for today.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 239.

    6 A. Yes. If we go back to about 11.00 in the

    7 morning, not long after I'd arrived, that is the woman

    8 you may recall who last an injured friend or relative

    9 in the house. At this point, obviously with my

    10 interpreter, with the woman we were discussing issues,

    11 and you can see here two young men who have got rifles,

    12 who could have been soldiers, although I believe they

    13 were sort of a local defence sort of outfit, and

    14 another man here, soldier, and one here. And all

    15 around that house there were about five men who I would

    16 describe as of fighting age.

    17 And at this time, you see this woodpile here,

    18 there was a small outhouse here, and the two private

    19 soldiers, when I was talking here, were then carrying

    20 over dead bodies of old men from the front fields just

    21 at the T-junction of the main road and delivered them

    22 to the outhouse. And I asked what was wrong with

    23 them. This is right at the start. I asked, "What is

    24 wrong with them?" And he said, "These are dead," which

    25 is a small shock.

  59. 1 Q. Are you saying dead bodies? Are you saying

    2 two or are you saying more than that?

    3 A. I remember seeing two.

    4 Q. And these particular people, Muslims with

    5 weapons, were they picking those dead bodies up?

    6 A. No, they hadn't bothered. I don't know why.

    7 I was distracted by the incident and the woman, and as

    8 I was talking, my soldiers had taken it on themselves,

    9 I don't know why, but they ended up picking these two

    10 bodies up and put them over by the barn.

    11 Q. And what did these men in the photograph,

    12 with rifles, appear to be doing?

    13 A. I think they'd been the local defence of the

    14 village, and I don't know whether they'd come there as

    15 a result of the action in the morning at about 6.00, or

    16 whether they had been there, but if there had been

    17 action of a military action rather than a civilian

    18 slaughter, then I assume they would have been -- while

    19 defending their friends and relatives they would have

    20 probably been injured or killed themselves.

    21 Q. And apart from that location, and I think the

    22 location you're referring to is marked by number 1 on

    23 the map, with the house ringed with the 14 numeral next

    24 to it, that is the house where you saw these --

    25 A. That's the very house, yeah, there

  60. 1 (indicating).

    2 Q. And this is the house where the man was

    3 assisted because he had a gun-shot wound to his back?

    4 A. To his back and arm, yes.

    5 Q. Are there any other locations that you saw

    6 Muslim men with weapons, apart from this particular

    7 location?

    8 A. This is the only one.

    9 Q. What was your impression when you left the

    10 village? And this might tie into your impression when

    11 you arrived. Did you feel that an action had taken

    12 place or were you caught in the middle of one? Can you

    13 give the Court some understanding of when the tempo of

    14 this action, whatever it was, occurred to cause the

    15 damage that you've referred to, the 20 per cent of

    16 houses you saw burnt within your field of view along

    17 side of the road, what was your impression about when

    18 that, in fact, occurred? Do you have one?

    19 A. My impression was based, after my arrival, on

    20 talking to the woman, and on seeing the injured man and

    21 by the nature of his wound in his back, the quantity of

    22 blood on the sofa, and the congealed nature of the

    23 blood and the abating of the bleeding, although not

    24 completely, that he'd probably been there for about

    25 three hours, four hours. No less than two, no more

  61. 1 than four. Basically these were the things that made

    2 me believe -- sort of put a time on it, but also the

    3 woman had commented that it was a morning offensive.

    4 And most deliberate offensives conducted by military

    5 men are done at dawn, because that's the time when the

    6 people are at least alertness, probably in their beds.

    7 Q. So in relation to what the woman told you,

    8 was that consistent with what you saw?

    9 A. Exactly.

    10 Q. And you headed back to the Vitez base; is

    11 that correct?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And you were in the village for about three

    14 or four hours; is that correct?

    15 A. Four hours.

    16 Q. And you mentioned there was an increase in

    17 gunfire, if not peripheral gunfire, when you were

    18 travelling the route or waiting for the vehicle, the

    19 recovery vehicle, to fix up one of the vehicles that

    20 had broken down. What about the rest of the four

    21 hours? What sort of gunfire was heard, if any, during

    22 that time?

    23 A. Again, I'll describe it as peripheral in that

    24 I was aware that there was gunfire going on. Whether

    25 that was nearby or echoing gunfire I could not specify,

  62. 1 but certainly there was gunfire in and around the

    2 periphery of the area. But really because of the

    3 nature of what we came across, I was more focused on

    4 the problem there, and this, I suppose, distracted me

    5 from other concerns like the gunfire.

    6 Q. But there wasn't any sort of offensive

    7 occurring whilst in front of you or near you whilst you

    8 were in the village?

    9 A. There was no offensive. The only thing that

    10 made me believe that some fresh action of sorts had

    11 taken place was that a wooden barn and a house -- and,

    12 in fact, two houses, were freshly ablaze. They were

    13 not ablaze when I entered the village at 11.00, but

    14 they were ablaze at 3.00 and burnt out quite quickly.

    15 So obviously something had taken place from the sort of

    16 western -- north-western edge of the village. Maybe

    17 using an approach from the hillside towards further up

    18 the hill, or maybe down towards Santici, which is a

    19 Croat village.

    20 Q. Thank you. You went back to the Vitez base

    21 and then at some later time did you re-attend the

    22 village or near to the village?

    23 A. Yes, we then -- we went back to reorganise

    24 ourselves and to change the vehicle that had broken

    25 down, and then I was tasked to join Lieutenant Dooley

  63. 1 who had spent his afternoon recovering dead bodies, and

    2 I assisted him later at about 6.00 in the evening.

    3 Q. And that's what he told you he had been

    4 doing?

    5 A. Yes. He'd been doing it since about 12.00 or

    6 about midday.

    7 Q. And you met him, and what time did you --

    8 sorry, I might have missed that, but what time were you

    9 back at the village, outside the village?

    10 A. At about 6.30. We rendezvoused at Dubravica,

    11 at the junction, at about 6.00, and we must have been

    12 on the main road, on this road along here, there was

    13 four Warrior vehicles and two of my Scimitars, at about

    14 6.30.

    15 Q. Did you see anything of significance when you

    16 arrived there, in relation to casualties?

    17 A. Yes. You'll see the figure 6 with a circle

    18 around it. This is an area of a field just on the

    19 eastern edge of a house where there were five bodies,

    20 civilian and elderly bodies, lying on the grass at what

    21 appeared to be where they had fell whilst being shot.

    22 In fact, they had several injuries to their bodies.

    23 They had not just been shot once from the injuries that

    24 I saw. And it was those five bodies that we were

    25 tasked to recover.

  64. 1 So with four Warriors and with my two

    2 Scimitars, we picketed this road to ensure our own

    3 safety. Corporal Ramsden, my other Corporal, was at

    4 the bottom by this cemetery here, and I placed myself

    5 here at the top end by the junction of Ahmici, and the

    6 four Warriors were placed along the road here to

    7 provide security, so that the armoured ambulance could

    8 reverse onto this field as close to the dead bodies as

    9 possible in order to collect them and put them in the

    10 back of the ambulance. And then our task really was to

    11 remove them and take them to the edge of the village so

    12 that if any Muslim people wanted to collect them they

    13 could do more safely. That was the concept of what we

    14 were up to.

    15 Q. That circle with the 6 represents the place

    16 that you feel that the bodies were located and

    17 retrieved from?

    18 A. Yeah. That's -- by the nature of how they

    19 were lying, it appeared that they were lying where they

    20 had fell whilst being shot.

    21 Q. Now I produce a few exhibits to you that may

    22 assist in describing this incident. They're Exhibits

    23 53, 54, 55, 56 and 57.

    24 If we can look at Exhibit 53 first, please.

    25 A. This white block is the periscope of my

  65. 1 vehicle, and this is the field. As you can see, the

    2 bodies are lying here. This is where the circle that's

    3 drawn on the map with the mark 6 is. You can see in

    4 the distance some of the smoking buildings of Ahmici.

    5 This is the edge of Ahmici, and you can see the

    6 destruction of some of these houses. This line along

    7 here is the main road, which you can't obviously see,

    8 but clearly the dead bodies are there.

    9 Q. Can we look at Exhibit 54?

    10 A. This is the -- excuse me. This is the

    11 armoured ambulance. These are some Cheshire soldiers

    12 taking cover or covering us as we reversed, opened the

    13 door and then put the bodies in the back. Here is a

    14 dead man, a civilian.

    15 Q. Exhibit 55.

    16 A. Here is another dead man. And another man

    17 next to him here, slightly more -- middle-aged. We

    18 were about to pick these bodies up and put them into

    19 the back of the ambulance.

    20 Q. And Exhibit 56.

    21 A. This is the ambulance door and the

    22 entrance -- the back of the ambulance, and these are

    23 the bodies. There's obviously one, two, and here is

    24 the feet of a third. There was a couple more on the

    25 stretcher up here. This man I personally lifted into

  66. 1 the ambulance.

    2 Q. That's the man with the purple jacket?

    3 A. Yes. He's got a bad injury to his arm, and

    4 he has a couple of other injuries that suggested to me

    5 that he'd probably been engaged with automatic fire or

    6 with several sort of single-aimed shots. Probably

    7 automatic fire, because after the first shot you tend

    8 to fall down.

    9 Q. And Exhibit 57.

    10 A. Here is probably a better view of one, two,

    11 three, four, five people. A soldier here with his

    12 rubber gloves on. Yep.

    13 Q. Now, I would just like you to describe all of

    14 the men. Were any of them in any sort of obvious

    15 uniform?

    16 A. None of them were in any obvious uniform or

    17 any -- my experience was that most Bosnian solders had,

    18 if not any uniform, had one or two items of uniform,

    19 what I would call mixed dress, but none of these had

    20 any green jacket or sleeveless black top or anything

    21 signifying anything military whatsoever.

    22 Q. Were there any weapons next to these --

    23 A. There were no weapons anywhere near them.

    24 Q. I think you've described one or two of the

    25 bodies and how you believed they, in fact, were

  67. 1 killed. Can you describe the others? Are you in a

    2 position to?

    3 A. I'm not really in a position to describe them

    4 other than they were all dead and they sustained more

    5 than one shot.

    6 Q. And so those bodies were subsequently taken

    7 further up the village, I think you said?

    8 A. Yeah. They were taken to the east -- I

    9 shall, if you like, point on the map where we took

    10 them.

    11 Q. If you could? And that's pointing on Exhibit

    12 229. If you can mark the location with an X with the

    13 red pen of the place where the bodies were taken?

    14 A. (Marks). Took them to the small lay-by there

    15 just north-east of the cemetery here.

    16 Q. I think you said that you took those bodies

    17 to that location so to enable Muslim people to pick

    18 these bodies up --

    19 A. That's right.

    20 Q. -- in more safety?

    21 A. That's correct.

    22 Q. I'd like to show you another photograph, and

    23 if you can explain to the Court what that is? It's a

    24 new exhibit.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 240.

  68. 1 A. This is -- you can see three of the four

    2 Warriors here parked on the road. You can see, between

    3 these two Warriors, Corporal Ramsden's scimitar at the

    4 end of the road further towards the cemetery, you can

    5 see here my vehicle just off the road, and you can also

    6 see that the headlights are on -- it's quite -- it's

    7 getting dark or getting darker, and we had actually

    8 completed the removal of the bodies and we're now on

    9 our way.

    10 I recall that we had been distracted by

    11 gunfire in the Ahmici area, and therefore, you can see

    12 these three barrels over to the right-hand side of the

    13 decks of the vehicles.

    14 Something I also recall -- I have a

    15 photograph somewhere, but I can't find it -- of direct

    16 fire being shot from this hillside here, which I

    17 believe to be a Croat position, it's on the western

    18 side of the Busovaca sort of area, Busovaca being

    19 further into this valley, and it was a series of tracer

    20 rounds with gaps between them. They're obviously

    21 automatic, but the gaps between them were consistent

    22 with that of something like an anti-aircraft gun being

    23 used in the direct role, the surface role of probably

    24 20 or 30 millimetres and sufficiently fast and flat

    25 trajectory to tell me that they were of that nature,

  69. 1 and they were being fired from the top of this hill

    2 across into Ahmici, into the village area.

    3 Q. About how many firings did you see?

    4 A. There were a couple of bursts. In fact, I

    5 remember trying to take a picture of them, and every

    6 time there was a burst, I managed to -- I failed, and

    7 finally caught a picture on the last burst of

    8 ammunition of fire.

    9 Q. Was there any burst back?

    10 A. Not that I was aware. I didn't see any, not

    11 on their return.

    12 Q. With the red marker, could you put the

    13 trajectory or what you saw onto that last exhibit, 240?

    14 A. (Marks). That's really behind that house but

    15 from the top of this hill across, into the back of

    16 here. That's in the distance rather than in the

    17 foreground. Difficult to show, really.

    18 Q. Looking at that photograph, there's a damaged

    19 house that appears to be at the corner of the

    20 junction. Did you notice whether that was damaged when

    21 you arrived there or left there earlier that day?

    22 A. It wasn't damaged when I arrived there, but I

    23 didn't notice it on the exit of the village at about

    24 3.30.

    25 Q. So it could have been --

  70. 1 A. It could have been done --

    2 Q. -- destroyed any time after your arrival?

    3 A. Yeah.

    4 Q. Could you put an arrow on the direction of

    5 the trajectory for the record on that exhibit on which

    6 way --

    7 A. Sorry, direction.

    8 Q. -- which direction it was actually heading.

    9 A. (Marks)

    10 Q. And if you put Exhibit 229, which is the

    11 aerial of the village, can you explain what the white

    12 arrow generally reflects?

    13 A. Yes. That white arrow is the direction of

    14 the fire, and this is actually a hilly feature, which

    15 is difficult to see from this two-dimensional picture,

    16 but when I took the picture that you've just seen in

    17 the last example, I was sitting here (indicating).

    18 That house that was destroyed, that we just talked

    19 about, is here, the Warriors are lined along here, and

    20 Corporal Ramsden and his vehicle down here, and that

    21 fire that I saw came across here into the back of

    22 Ahmici.

    23 Q. You were only involved in one body pick-up;

    24 is that correct?

    25 A. That's correct.

  71. 1 Q. But is it your belief that there were other

    2 body pick-ups by other people?

    3 A. That afternoon, I understood that Lieutenant

    4 Dooley had conducted a series of pick-ups something

    5 like two or three, of about four to six bodies each

    6 time and taken them somewhere. I don't know where.

    7 Q. After that pick-up, you headed back to base

    8 again?

    9 A. That's right, yeah.

    10 Q. About how long did that take?

    11 A. It was -- I'd say the whole thing wrapped up

    12 within about an hour, probably a bit over an hour.

    13 Q. Looking at this photograph that I'll produce

    14 to you -- it's a new exhibit -- could you explain to

    15 the Court what that is?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit is marked 241.

    17 A. This is a picture of Vitez. You can see the

    18 Catholic church here, the Catholic end of -- the Croat

    19 end of town, and this is the Muslim end, and if you

    20 could see through the smoke, you'd see a minaret around

    21 here somewhere. This is my vehicle periscopes, this

    22 is -- that's pointing east, that direction. So what

    23 we're doing is we're going along the ring road to

    24 Dubravica late in the day, although it's not a very

    25 good, clear shot. Because we're going east, I

  72. 1 understand it to be my second journey to Ahmici that

    2 day, so this is not the morning but the second journey

    3 to go and pick up the bodies, and as I can see, the

    4 area of Vitez is still smoking from its activity that

    5 morning or that day.

    6 MR. SMITH:

    7 Q. That's the area I'd like to briefly discuss

    8 now, is putting what you saw in Ahmici in some sort of

    9 Vitez-wide, municipal-wide context. Did you go into

    10 Vitez on the 16th of April?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. So the route you took was always a ring route

    13 around --

    14 A. Yeah, the northern route around Vitez. There

    15 was no reason for me to go into Vitez and, in fact, the

    16 intensity of what was going on in Vitez was the first

    17 reason why I was left in a mess in the morning and was

    18 only then sent to Ahmici to investigate what apparently

    19 at the time was some activity, unspecified.

    20 Q. After the 16th of April, did you visit some

    21 other villages that had received some substantial

    22 damage?

    23 A. Yes, I did, yeah.

    24 Q. I believe on the 30th of April, you visited a

    25 village called Jelinak?

  73. 1 A. That's correct.

    2 Q. About how far away is that from Ahmici?

    3 A. It's probably -- it's -- if you take a

    4 circular route up to the north-east, it is about 8

    5 kilometres, 10 kilometres.

    6 Q. What was the predominant population in

    7 Jelinak, what --

    8 A. It was a predominantly Muslim village.

    9 Q. Why did you go to Jelinak?

    10 A. Because I was, on the 30th of April, I was

    11 handing over my responsibility to a lieutenant from the

    12 light dragoons who were the regiment taking over from

    13 us in Bosnia, and I visited -- Jelinak is part of

    14 routine patrols or a routine handover, although I had

    15 never actually been there before. I had been to Putis,

    16 which is just east of Jelinak, but then decided to

    17 venture into Jelinak with Lieutenant Rennick.

    18 Q. So it was a general patrol; is that correct?

    19 A. A general patrol as well as a handover

    20 patrol.

    21 Q. Why did you pick that particular village?

    22 A. Just coverage of the area, a random coverage

    23 of the area, in some respect, and also more specific

    24 coverage of the area with regard Ahmici and other

    25 places.

  74. 1 Q. And what of significance did you see in that

    2 village?

    3 A. Well, I drove from Putis up into the village

    4 to the first house on my left-hand side, and there I

    5 stopped when a couple of men came out of the building

    6 and asked me to stop, stop to talk to them, and they

    7 asked me to jump down and come and look at something,

    8 so I decided to jump down, took my rifle with me, and

    9 the one soldier, who was a grey-haired man but quite

    10 strong-looking, maybe in his late 40s, showed me where

    11 three people had been killed and which -- the bodies

    12 were still there, or the remnants of the bodies.

    13 He showed me against the side of the

    14 building, the back of the house, three splotches, three

    15 marks of blood where it was very evident three people

    16 had been shot. The red marks were at head height, so

    17 there had been three men shot in the head. The blood

    18 had trickled down the wall, and then where the men had

    19 been dragged away onto some grass, there was a trail of

    20 blood, congealed blood, you could see the trail to

    21 where the bodies then lay. I say "bodies." The first

    22 was pretty much a head, charred head, skull, quite easy

    23 to recognise as a human skull; the second was a skull

    24 and shoulders and a bit of torso, again charred

    25 completely; and the third was a full torso and head

  75. 1 with absolutely perfect features of a human being and

    2 arms other than the fact that they were absolutely jet

    3 black as that cloak, having been burned. What was most

    4 extraordinary was the fact that next to the black and

    5 burnt torso were two knee-length black leather boots,

    6 what I've described as jackboots, which had the legs

    7 inside them, which were not burnt, which is

    8 significant, I think. You could see the bones, the

    9 knee bones and the flesh, where they had obviously been

    10 chopped off before they had burned the bodies.

    11 Q. Where were these bodies? Were they in a

    12 house? Were they outside?

    13 A. They were outside the house next to -- you

    14 could follow the blood trail from the three spots on

    15 the wall -- I say "spots" -- patches of blood this

    16 large trickled down, follow the blood. The three

    17 remains of the bodies were outside on the grass on the

    18 eastern edge of a house in Jelinak.

    19 Q. And about how many houses were in Jelinak;

    20 have you got any understanding --

    21 A. Jelinak was very stretched out, and it sort

    22 of merged into Loncari. It's not a large village,

    23 maybe 40 houses.

    24 Q. Was there any damage to the houses?

    25 A. The houses -- typical burnt-out roofs,

  76. 1 beams. The roofs had collapsed where they had been set

    2 on fire, doorways and windows blackened.

    3 Q. What percentage of the village appeared to

    4 have been destroyed in that manner?

    5 A. I think about 40 or 50 per cent of it had

    6 been destroyed, and this is sometime after, and it was

    7 absolutely deserted apart from the couple of guys who

    8 came from some hide where they had been.

    9 Q. Do you know the date in which this

    10 destruction occurred and killing?

    11 A. Well, it can only really -- the last time I

    12 was anywhere near there was the 15th of April, on the

    13 night when I was in Putis, and I was there then on the

    14 30th of April, so it was anywhere between those two

    15 dates.

    16 Q. So you've got no specific knowledge?

    17 A. No, although most of the activity I

    18 understand went on between the 16th and the 25th of

    19 April I understand just from my knowledge.

    20 Q. This village was predominantly Muslim; is

    21 that correct?

    22 A. That's right, that's right.

    23 Q. And the Serb frontlines in relation to

    24 Jelinak, can you explain to the Court where they would

    25 be? Would they be nearby?

  77. 1 A. Well, from Jelinak, the Serb frontline is not

    2 even significant, there's no weapon. This was -- in

    3 that theatre would be able to be launched from a Serb

    4 position, certainly not to the east but to the nearest

    5 Serb frontline to the west and north-west was Turbe

    6 which was about 20 miles away.

    7 Q. Bearing that in mind, what was your

    8 presumption as to which military force generally

    9 inflicted that damage on that village?

    10 A. It was the HVO that had attacked that

    11 village.

    12 Q. But you didn't see the particular attack.

    13 A. No, no.

    14 Q. This is a conclusion.

    15 A. This is a Muslim village. Serbs are miles

    16 away. Conclusion: Croats attacked this village.

    17 There was also some -- there was also two pigs in the

    18 village that were still smouldering, in fact, when we

    19 arrived there, and I don't think pigs smoulder for 15

    20 days when lit. I think they were put -- I assume they

    21 were put there just to desecrate or soil, make a point

    22 about Muslim faith, in that they were brought along and

    23 destroyed there to sort of desecrate the village, if

    24 you like, and they were still smouldering when I

    25 arrived there, suggesting they had been lit or shot or

  78. 1 something like that only a few days before.

    2 Q. Was the village populated or was it empty?

    3 A. It was deserted.

    4 Q. There's a village near Jelinak called

    5 Loncari. You visited that on that --

    6 A. Yeah.

    7 Q. -- same day; is that correct?

    8 A. I arrived in Jelinak from the east along

    9 through Putis and I exited Jelinak through Loncari.

    10 Q. What did you see in Loncari of significance,

    11 if anything?

    12 A. It was very similar to Jelinak, really. It

    13 was a continuation. Again, houses burnt, blackened

    14 timbers, burnt windows and door frames, and

    15 livestock -- there's a lot of livestock, horses, and

    16 some cattle that had been killed and had -- rigor

    17 mortis had set in because their legs were stretched out

    18 straight as they were lying on their sides, a general

    19 bad smell.

    20 Q. Can you give the Court some sort of

    21 understanding of the size of the village, how many

    22 houses, what type of village was it?

    23 A. A rural village, quite a long, thin village.

    24 I'm not sure if it didn't follow a small stream, but a

    25 linear village, I'd say, maybe of -- between 30 and 50

  79. 1 houses.

    2 Q. Can you give an estimate of the number of

    3 houses that appeared to be in a burnt, destroyed state

    4 from which you mentioned earlier?

    5 A. Probably anything between a quarter and half

    6 of the houses.

    7 Q. Was there any sign of death in that village?

    8 A. The animals. Apart from the -- in Loncari --

    9 Jelinak aside and the other three bodies I've talked

    10 about -- in Loncari, all I witnessed was dead animals,

    11 particularly a horse I remember very clearly, dead.

    12 Q. Can you explain to the Court the predominant

    13 ethnic group that lived in that village?

    14 A. I understood the ethnic grouping to be

    15 Muslim.

    16 Q. This village falls into a similar situation

    17 in terms of Jelinak in that it was quite a way away

    18 from the Serb frontline, Bosnian Serb frontline; is

    19 that correct?

    20 A. Yes, very much so, yeah.

    21 Q. And what conclusion do you have in relation

    22 to the military group or that would have been involved

    23 in that attack on that village?

    24 A. Well, I'm not very clear on the Muslim or

    25 Croat intent at the time, their intentions, their

  80. 1 concept of operations, but the relevance of taking that

    2 village, a Muslim village, so a Croat offensive on that

    3 village seemed to bear no relevance, militarily, as

    4 there was no fortifications in that village, there were

    5 no trenches, there were no sangars or defended houses

    6 that I saw.

    7 Q. From your experience in Bosnia on that tour

    8 and your tour following, can you offer another

    9 alternative if, in fact, a military group organised an

    10 attack on this village of Loncari other than the

    11 Bosnian Croat military, apart from a Bosnian Muslim

    12 military group?

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Radovic?

    14 MR. RADOVIC: I don't think that this has

    15 anything to do with the indictment, and I have an

    16 objection. For example, the village of Loncari, what

    17 has that to do with Ahmici, and the pigs that were

    18 mentioned, the slaughtered pigs which were several

    19 kilometres from Ahmici and it has nothing to do with

    20 this case, and all this happened 15 days later, whereas

    21 the indictment concludes with the 16th of April. I

    22 think that we were tolerant enough, but I think things

    23 have gone too far now.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Smith?

    25 MR. SMITH: In relation to that, Your Honour,

  81. 1 the main focus of this witness's testimony has been

    2 Ahmici, and in relation to the crimes against humanity

    3 count, we must prove that what occurred in Ahmici was

    4 part of a widespread or systematic attack on the

    5 civilian population, and that's obviously why it's

    6 being led, and as far as the dates of when this

    7 village -- these two villages were attacked, the

    8 witness didn't say the 30th of April, he said that's,

    9 in fact, when he visited, and he believed that the

    10 attack on those villages was between the 16th and

    11 25th.

    12 In any event, I'm going to be moving off this

    13 topic, but it is an important point for the

    14 Prosecution.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: I agree, yes. But you should

    16 try to phrase your questions in such a way that they

    17 are not leading.

    18 Yes, Counsel Radovic?

    19 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honours, I accept this

    20 theory, that the indictment would like to prove broader

    21 aspects, but for our aspects, for our clients, for them

    22 to prove that they were -- a broader aspect, that they

    23 should show that they had a higher position in politics

    24 or elsewhere. So when they step outside the frameworks

    25 of Ahmici, that is, people who had no military or

  82. 1 civilian authority, I don't think this comes within the

    2 frameworks of the indictment as it stands.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, Counsel Radovic. With

    4 all due respect, you are wrong from the viewpoint of

    5 international law. You were referring to command

    6 responsibility. We are not dealing with the question

    7 of command responsibility, we are dealing with the

    8 question of whether or not the alleged crimes committed

    9 by the accused may be characterised as crimes against

    10 humanity.

    11 Now, as you know, one of the ingredients of

    12 crimes against humanity is that they are part of a

    13 widespread practice or systematic practice, whatever

    14 the position of responsibility in a command structure

    15 of the accused. A rape committed by a soldier may be

    16 classified as a crime against humanity if it is part of

    17 a widespread practice; so therefore, their position of

    18 responsibility is not relevant.

    19 MR. SMITH: I'm moving off this topic. Just

    20 one last question, Your Honour.

    21 Q. Who was -- who do you believe, based on the

    22 circumstances that you had at hand, was responsible for

    23 the attack on Loncari?

    24 A. Based on what I saw, on my understanding of

    25 the Croat and Muslim dispositions, based on what the

  83. 1 woman at the start of the village told my interpreter

    2 and therefore me, it was clear that there was an HVO

    3 offensive that had taken this village, Muslim village,

    4 which had a minaret very clearly standing on the 16th

    5 of April at the front of the village.

    6 Q. Sorry, I was referring to Loncari.

    7 A. I beg your pardon. Again, as a result of my

    8 understanding of dispositions, in our operations room,

    9 we had a demographic or ethnic chart, and from that, I

    10 knew this area to be predominantly Muslim, and it had

    11 received destruction of a nature similar to that of

    12 Ahmici.

    13 Q. The civilians had gone from Loncari; is that

    14 correct?

    15 A. Correct, yes.

    16 Q. You said in the beginning of your testimony

    17 that you received training and education in the law of

    18 armed conflict, the rules that apply to war. In

    19 relation to the principles of protection of civilians

    20 and protection of civilian property, can you give the

    21 Court an opinion on the nature of the attack, whether

    22 you, as an educated, experienced military soldier,

    23 believe it was an unlawful operation or the damage and

    24 the injuries that you saw was legitimate?

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you.

  84. 1 Could you maybe rephrase this question because actually

    2 it's not important -- it is for the Court to decide

    3 whether it was lawful or unlawful. The question is

    4 whether it was a military operation or -- let me see,

    5 the words used by the witness. He said there was, in a

    6 way, a choice between military action or civilian

    7 slaughter.

    8 So without classifying the action as lawful

    9 or unlawful, whether it was, rather, a military action

    10 or a civilian slaughter, to use his own words.

    11 MR. SMITH: I'm happy with that question,

    12 Your Honour.

    13 A. Again, from what I saw, from what I was told

    14 by the woman, from the smoking houses, from the smoking

    15 civilian houses, the dead -- couple of dead men of what

    16 I would describe as non-combatant age, from a man who

    17 was in civilian clothing in a jumper who had got a shot

    18 in the back, in the back, suggesting he was withdrawing

    19 or running away or something, from a woman who saw --

    20 with a very nasty face, who was probably about 50 or

    21 60, a woman with a head wound, which is a gunshot, a

    22 single shot on her head, and from a whole cellar of

    23 anything from old men to children, a small girl of 12

    24 years old, from seeing that and seeing no defences,

    25 only a few men earlier on in the day of combat age with

  85. 1 rifles, my impression was that whether there had been

    2 any soldiers in this village at all, of which there was

    3 only a very, very small example, these few men I've

    4 talked about, at the end of the day, these houses,

    5 these civilian houses, had been burnt down, were on

    6 fire - these were not houses that had any signs of

    7 being defended by soldiers or had any fortifications -

    8 and I think when you see 12-year-old girls with bullet

    9 wounds and even men who could fight with gunshot wounds

    10 in their backs or women with gunshot wounds in their

    11 heads, it tells me that this is a slaughter of

    12 civilians.

    13 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your

    14 Honour. I apologise for being lengthy with this

    15 witness, but because he was very much involved on the

    16 day, it does take a little time.

    17 I would like to tender Exhibits 229 to 241.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we now take a

    19 break, 30-minute break. We will reconvene at 4.00.

    20 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

    21 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic.

    23 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, I would like to

    24 inform you that the witness will be questioned by

    25 counsel Ranko Radovic.

  86. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Radovic.

    2 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    3 Q. Tell me, Major, as far as I was able to

    4 understand, you are an infantry man, or armoured units,

    5 or what is your category, in fact? What is your rank?

    6 A. I'm from a reconnaissance armoured unit,

    7 cavalry.

    8 Q. In your specialist training -- does artillery

    9 come under your specialist training?

    10 A. Not under my specialist training, no.

    11 Q. And what about anti-aircraft guns, is that

    12 part of your training too?

    13 A. ... I'm trained in, but I have a good

    14 all-round knowledge of the all-arms battle, and that

    15 includes air defence and artillery, and infantry work

    16 and armoured work.

    17 Q. Did you see anti-aircraft guns, the ones that

    18 the HVO had at their disposal in the surroundings of

    19 Vitez, did you personally see them?

    20 A. I didn't see the guns, but I saw fire from a

    21 gun, from a HVO area, which with its rate of fire, the

    22 size of the tracer, the trajectory of the gun, made me

    23 understand that they were clearly anti-aircraft guns,

    24 and I can further confirm that if you wish me to.

    25 Q. How did you know that it was a 30-millimetre

  87. 1 anti-aircraft gun?

    2 A. I didn't know it was a 30-millimetre gun, I

    3 said it was between 20 and 30 millimetres, because

    4 anti-aircraft guns are normally anything between 23

    5 millimetres, 20 millimetres, sometimes as little as

    6 12.7 millimetres and sometimes as much as 40. That's

    7 why I said between 20 and 30, roughly.

    8 Q. Very well. Do you know, in concrete terms,

    9 what anti-aircraft were against at the disposal of the

    10 HVO and the Muslim side, the army of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    12 A. I think most of the units out there had

    13 former JNA weapons, and most of these weapons are based

    14 on Russian or Soviet type weaponry, the ZPU or ZSU

    15 type anti-aircraft guns. Mainly ZPUs, ZPU-4 12.7

    16 millimetre, 20 millimetre, some 23 millimetres and even

    17 57 millimetres in some cases.

    18 Q. Very well. I'm now interested in knowing how

    19 you decided upon this category between 20 and 30

    20 millimetres.

    21 A. The rounds that were fired over the hillside

    22 had firing intervals in that I'm saying the rate of

    23 fire showed me that they were, first of all, not

    24 machine gun, which puts them in a larger bracket.

    25 Okay? They were also not of a rate of -- do you want

  88. 1 me to continue, or are you going to talk?

    2 Q. Yes, you can carry on. I can ask you the

    3 next question in that regard. Do you know that

    4 anti-aircraft guns are conceived in such a way as to

    5 have limited possibility for reducing the barrel

    6 downwards, just like with tanks, you can't raise the

    7 barrel upwards, which is the case with Russian tanks,

    8 for example. And this one can't go downwards. Do you

    9 know of that fact?

    10 A. That's not correct. You can depress an

    11 anti-aircraft gun to fire in a direct role, and in

    12 fact, I was fired on by Serb guns in January over near

    13 Kladanj, where anti-aircraft guns were fired at me in a

    14 direct role from the other side of a valley, and I had

    15 this confirmed to me by the Bosnian Serbs when I

    16 visited a town over their border some weeks later, and

    17 we had a good laugh about it.

    18 Q. But do you know whether it was the same type

    19 of weapon, because I imagine that not all types have

    20 the same combat possibilities.

    21 A. Anti-aircraft guns can fire in the direct

    22 role and they can be depressed. It is the simple case

    23 of letting a gun lower. They all fire from the

    24 horizontal with either a series of hand controls,

    25 winches, and they can be elevated up to the vertical

  89. 1 and, in fact, beyond it, all around 360 degrees.

    2 Because when you're firing at an aircraft, it may be

    3 coming towards and you're firing like this, and they're

    4 coming up like that and you might be going around and

    5 beyond. Soviet anti-aircraft guns fire in all

    6 directions, including on a flat trajectory on the

    7 horizontal.

    8 The flat trajectory of the ammunition going

    9 across the valley in that it wasn't like this but it

    10 was flat like that, shows that the rounds were of a

    11 high velocity, and they were being fired at a rate of

    12 fire where there were about up to, say, ten tracer

    13 element or rounds in the air at any one time, and this

    14 is consistent with an anti-aircraft gun. Tanks fire

    15 rounds one at a time. Machine-guns fire with a rapid

    16 rate of fire where you have a lot of rounds in the air

    17 of a much smaller nature.

    18 My training -- I'm a gunnery officers in the

    19 Royal Armoured Corps, and this is why I know about

    20 ballistics.

    21 Q. Tell me what the time was when you filmed the

    22 men carrying the weapons.

    23 A. Which men carrying which weapons?

    24 Q. On the photograph that was shown to you. One

    25 photograph shows people not wearing uniforms with

  90. 1 automatic rifles, and I'm interested in knowing when

    2 that picture was taken.

    3 A. That picture, if you're referring to the

    4 picture that has two men in brown jackets carrying

    5 AK-47s, that was taken at about 11.00, 11.30 in the

    6 morning.

    7 Q. On their civilian clothing did they have any

    8 signs showing that they belonged to any army?

    9 A. No, they didn't.

    10 Q. What, according to the rules of the British

    11 army, would you do with individuals carrying firearms,

    12 without having any insignia as belonging to an army?

    13 Which category would you place those individuals in?

    14 A. Depends how they are dressed.

    15 Q. Like the people dressed that you took the

    16 photo of. If the British army were to meet men dressed

    17 like that in the operation zone, what would you

    18 think -- who did you think these men belonged to, what

    19 category?

    20 A. If that's a general question, if I came

    21 across --

    22 Q. I am asking -- yes, tell us. Go ahead,

    23 please.

    24 A. If that's a general question, if I came

    25 across, in any war, men dressed in civilian clothing,

  91. 1 with a rifle --

    2 Q. In any war, yes.

    3 A. Yes. It depends which side they were on. If

    4 I could speak to them and establish they were on my

    5 side, I would take no action. If they were firing at

    6 me and they were wearing civilian clothing, I would

    7 shoot them. I don't really understand what you're

    8 trying to get at.

    9 Q. I am trying to get at whether you would

    10 consider them to be soldiers.

    11 A. In this specific case I would regard them as

    12 soldiers because --

    13 Q. No, I'm asking you in general terms.

    14 Generally speaking, if the British army were to

    15 encounter an adversary firing at them without military

    16 uniforms or military emblems, who would you consider

    17 them to be?

    18 A. Well, I wouldn't know because they would have

    19 no emblems on them. The point is here, and what I

    20 think you're trying to say is these soldiers are or are

    21 not soldiers. Because these men are in Bosnia, and

    22 because Bosnia doesn't have a professional army with

    23 professionally trained soldiers, my experience is that

    24 you have any man with any weapon dressed in any

    25 clothing can be a soldier. So I don't see what you're

  92. 1 trying to say.

    2 Q. Very well. I would like an answer. I'm not

    3 trying to say anything. I just would like to have an

    4 answer to the question, are they soldiers without

    5 uniforms with weapons, and without having any signs on

    6 their civilian clothes as showing that they belonged to

    7 an army of any kind? Would you not agree with me if I

    8 say that if they are civilians they would have to have

    9 emblems showing that they belonged to some army, or a

    10 five pointed star or something else. This is just an

    11 ad hoc, random example. Anywhere on their clothing.

    12 A. If a man is wearing civilian clothing, he

    13 could be anything from a civilian to a soldier. This

    14 situation, whether it was the same for another British

    15 army situation somewhere else in the world, at the end

    16 of the day if you have somebody with a rifle, whatever

    17 they're wearing, then I would regard them by looking at

    18 the weapon and not looking at what they were wearing,

    19 and especially in Bosnia. What they were wearing was

    20 irrelevant, because I would say these two are soldiers

    21 is the point. I never doubted that they were

    22 soldiers. But what sort of soldiers they were, whether

    23 they were professional frontline soldiers or whether

    24 they were local defenders, I don't know. I don't know

    25 whether they were there in the morning or whether

  93. 1 they'd come as a result of the engagement in the

    2 morning. The fact that they were standing there and

    3 they had no -- I had no -- I was not aware of them

    4 having taken part in any fighting, suggests to me that

    5 they probably came afterwards, unless they hid while

    6 their friends, and families, and old people and

    7 children were slaughtered.

    8 Q. Well, I'm not asking you for your

    9 conclusions, I'm just asking you what you saw with your

    10 very eyes and heard with your very ears. What you

    11 conclude is your own conclusion, but in court it is

    12 customary for witnesses to set out the facts and then

    13 the Court decides on those facts. That is to say,

    14 whether it was so or not so. So let us keep to what

    15 you saw and heard.

    16 A. Before you asked me my opinion of what they

    17 were -- looked on as by the British army of any

    18 battle. Okay? So that's an opinion, isn't it.

    19 So if you want the facts, these two men were

    20 two men of combat age, they were wearing civilian

    21 clothing but were carrying rifles --

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Smith.

    23 MR. SMITH: Your Honour --

    24 MR. RADOVIC: That's right. And the part of

    25 my question -- I asked that part of my question because

  94. 1 it belongs to your professional expertise.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Let Mr. Smith speak.

    3 MR. SMITH: I want to raise one point. I

    4 think there is a difficulty arising in this

    5 cross-examination, and the difficulty is I think there

    6 is confusion. The witness may well be confused from

    7 general questions to specific fact questions, and in

    8 the beginning my friend was asking questions of a

    9 general nature and only wanted to ask from a general

    10 point of view. This witness was trying to keep it in

    11 relation to what he saw and what he did, but my friend

    12 wants it had in a general way. Now the witness, when

    13 answering a question in a general way, that general

    14 question is being criticised by my friend for not

    15 relating it to the specific facts. So it's a mixture

    16 of concept and what he saw and what he heard.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Let me try and rephrase the

    18 question put by Counsel Radovic, with Counsel Radovic's

    19 permission. I think you -- probably the gist of your

    20 question was that you were keen to know from the

    21 witness whether under, you said, British rules, British

    22 military law, British rules, a civilian in civilian

    23 clothes, with no distinctive emblem but carrying

    24 weapons, would be regarded as a lawful combatant or as

    25 an unlawful combatant. I think this was probably the

  95. 1 sense of this question.

    2 A. Okay. Generally speaking, an unlawful

    3 combatant if he's got no uniform or insignia, or is

    4 quite clearly not a soldier. But the point is, going

    5 back to specifics, is that --

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: So far this is the general

    7 question. I wonder whether --

    8 A. Can I continue?

    9 MR. RADOVIC: That is precisely what I wanted

    10 to hear.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder if you are

    12 interested now to take up the point taken by Mr. Smith,

    13 in classifying the actual behaviour of those two

    14 people.

    15 MR. RADOVIC: Let me put it this way: First

    16 of all, I wanted to hear that these were unlawful

    17 combatants because they did not have any insignia on

    18 their clothes showing that they belonged to an

    19 organised unit. And we stopped at that point, as far

    20 as I'm concerned.

    21 A. Can I continue with that? I'd like to be

    22 more specific, to be honest.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Why not?

    24 A. Yeah. I think we all know from the theatre

    25 of operations in Bosnia, whether the side is Serb --

  96. 1 or Bosnian, Serb, Croat or Muslim, the nature of how

    2 the war came about, you do have situations where men of

    3 combat age, and any age, in fact, can pick up weapons

    4 and become part of forces. Some are police forces,

    5 some are the army, but generally, if they have a weapon

    6 they are, in many cases that I was aware of, part of

    7 armies. They might not be on the frontline with a

    8 formed unit, but they might be part of a local defence,

    9 defending their families and children from being

    10 slaughtered by opposition. That's how I see it, and

    11 that's my experience of my time out there. Just

    12 because somebody didn't have a uniform on didn't mean

    13 he was a soldier defending something like a village,

    14 for example, Ahmici.

    15 MR. RADOVIC:

    16 Q. Tell me, witness, are you an interested party

    17 in any way in this case?

    18 A. I am not an interested party in any way. Why

    19 do you ask that question?

    20 Q. I'm asking you this question because you go

    21 far beyond what you are asked.

    22 MR. SMITH: I object, Your Honour.

    23 JUDGE MAY: I object to this line of

    24 questioning. Just a moment.

    25 This line of questioning is wholly

  97. 1 unjustified, in my view. The witness was, first of

    2 all, asked his opinions by the Prosecution about

    3 military matters and he gave them. You, Mr. Radovic

    4 asked him his opinion and he gave it. Now you choose

    5 to allege that he's somehow an interested party.

    6 It may well be he's interested in the sense

    7 that he has reported what he saw that day, but apart

    8 from that, I do not see that he's an interested party

    9 and I regard it as an objectionable question.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, could you

    11 move on to another question, please?

    12 MR. RADOVIC:

    13 Q. As far as detonations are concerned, and

    14 shooting and similar sounds that are heard in a closed

    15 room, you mentioned that identification of a place that

    16 this sound may come from is affected by resonance, by

    17 echo. So my question would be: The identification of

    18 a place of explosion from a closed room, at what range

    19 is this? And also, to what extent does echo affect

    20 this adversely? That is to say this place that it came

    21 from, especially in an open space where there is an

    22 echo?

    23 A. That was absolutely clear. The --

    24 Q. I'm trying to put my questions clearly.

    25 A. Yes, it was very technically put.

  98. 1 At the end of the day, when I was in the

    2 village of Ahmici, my experience of what was going on

    3 around me was obviously visual and audio, the audio.

    4 And what I heard while focusing on a problem like an

    5 injured woman, or girl or whatever, was noises in the

    6 background, whether automatic fire or the odd explosion

    7 in and around the area. And it was very difficult,

    8 while focusing on first-aid and what have you of these

    9 injured civilians, to quantify or to be specific about

    10 the nature of this battle noise, because, of course,

    11 you do have echoes, and I'm not being specific at all

    12 about any direction of any weapon noise or gunfire, and

    13 I'd rather leave it at that, because I can't be exact

    14 about it and it would be unfair to be saying anything

    15 other than it was just general background or peripheral

    16 noise explosions in a sporadic and occasional manner.

    17 Q. I didn't exactly put this question in

    18 relation to your own personal experience, but I really

    19 asked because of some other witnesses who said that

    20 they had identified where a sound had come from,

    21 although they were in a closed room. So I asked you

    22 because you were an expert in this field, and can you

    23 tell by an echo how far some sound came from? So I'm

    24 asking you this as an expert question rather than in

    25 view of your personal experience.

  99. 1 A. Okay. I understand. What you do is you

    2 measure the distance between the crack of the rifle, or

    3 the gun or whatever is firing and the thump of the

    4 incoming round or bullet or whatever. The larger the

    5 gap between the crack and the thump suggests the

    6 farther the range of the weapon is away from you, and

    7 the shorter, obviously the opposite.

    8 Q. Now, I would kindly ask you to look at this

    9 map and tell me -- you can look at the photograph

    10 behind you, the big one, but could the other --

    11 Mr. Usher, could you please remove the other map that

    12 is on the big one?

    13 So this is the main road that leads from

    14 Vitez up to Zenica, et cetera, right? I'm interested

    15 in the following: To the best of your knowledge, do

    16 part of the houses of the village of Ahmici go across

    17 this road?

    18 A. I understand that -- I'm not sure whether the

    19 houses go to the south side of the road. I

    20 generally -- yeah, I think they do. The name of Ahmici

    21 is actually on the north side of the road on the map,

    22 and all my references have been really to a map -- my

    23 experience is from the map, and the problem with the

    24 houses in Bosnia is that you can have small groups of

    25 houses that don't even have a village name. So it

  100. 1 would be speculation for me just to say now that the

    2 houses south of the road were Ahmici or that they

    3 weren't Ahmici.

    4 Q. All right. In your opinion as an officer who

    5 is a Major now, was this road of strategic importance

    6 for the HVO in case of an armed conflict with the

    7 Muslims, of strategic importance?

    8 A. This road runs basically east/west. And let

    9 me first say that any road is of importance for lines

    10 of communication and supply, but generally a road

    11 running east/west, from what I understood the situation

    12 to be, was not quite as relevant as a road running

    13 north/south, because generally your operations, the HVO

    14 operations, were south/north leading out of the

    15 Busovaca area and that linear sort of frontline running

    16 from Busovaca across to the west, south of this sort of

    17 area.

    18 So if I was a Croat wanting to advance,

    19 depending on what my objective was, I'd be going north,

    20 and, therefore, to have this road would be nice, but I

    21 wouldn't have thought necessarily essential, other than

    22 distributing logistics across my frontage to the east

    23 and to the west.

    24 Q. And tell me, this road, doesn't it link Vitez

    25 and Busovaca?

  101. 1 A. Correct. Yes. So there you go. You've

    2 answered the question. It is of some importance,

    3 because it's nice for the HVO headquarters in Vitez to

    4 have a little bit of a link with that of the bases in

    5 Busovaca. Very good.

    6 Q. Tell me, if there were a group of HVO in

    7 Vitez and a group of HVO in Busovaca, is cutting off a

    8 line of communication between these two groups part of

    9 warfare strategy in any battle?

    10 A. It could be, yes.

    11 Q. I mean, to separate these units and then to

    12 destroy each group separately; isn't that correct?

    13 A. That is a very typical way of conducting

    14 operations. Yes, that could be done.

    15 Q. You said that you did not notice in Ahmici

    16 any significant presence of the BH army. What did you

    17 mean by that when you said that? That is to say, this

    18 should be elaborated in two directions.

    19 First of all, did you notice any presence of

    20 the BH army? And, if so, because you said you did not

    21 notice a significant presence, how was this presence

    22 that was there manifested?

    23 A. What I saw, as I said earlier, was no

    24 evidence -- there was no evidence of any formed Bosnian

    25 or Muslim army. There was no defences that I saw.

  102. 1 There was no barbed wire, there was no trenches, there

    2 were no sangars, there were no houses which were

    3 fortified. The only thing I saw that I knew was Muslim

    4 and that resembled anything to do with fighting, were a

    5 few gentlemen in and around, as you see on this picture

    6 here, carrying Kalashnikov weapons. That's all I saw

    7 in the way of Muslim men of fighting age in Ahmici.

    8 Q. If I understood you correctly, you base your

    9 conclusion on what you saw precisely that day, on the

    10 16th of April?

    11 A. That's correct, yes.

    12 Q. That is to say that before that you did not

    13 come to the village of Ahmici?

    14 A. No. I drove past the village of Ahmici, but

    15 I saw from the main road, if you use that as a

    16 confrontation line, no defences at any point. Had I

    17 seen any defences or build-up of forces, I'm sure,

    18 anywhere along that frontline I would have noticed

    19 them.

    20 Q. Tell me, when with your armoured vehicles you

    21 got into Ahmici, did you move exclusively along the

    22 road or did you go apart from the road? Did you go

    23 into the fields?

    24 A. No, I didn't, but what we did do when we

    25 advanced is we advanced and stopped occasionally, and

  103. 1 using our times ten magnified sights did look into

    2 woodland in order to see any activity, because it's

    3 very important to look after ourselves. We didn't go

    4 off the road because you don't know whether there are

    5 any mines off the road. But as I say, therefore, we

    6 stuck to the road but stopped occasionally to scan the

    7 woods and the area for any threat to us.

    8 Q. And tell me, when you were looking through

    9 the periscopes of your armoured vehicles, wasn't your

    10 ability to see what was around you limited after all?

    11 Couldn't you see much better if you would get out of

    12 the turret rather than only watch through the devices

    13 you had in the vehicle?

    14 A. No, what you do generally when you're

    15 conducting reconnaissance is you use your eyes and, a

    16 great deal, your ears as well, and you look around and

    17 scan and look for movement, and then when you see

    18 anything that's of interest, you then use your

    19 times-ten magnification, your very powerful sights,

    20 which are far more powerful than any binoculars, and

    21 you pinpoint anything of concern.

    22 So "No" is the answer. Having said that, you

    23 know, my vehicle has a 360 capability, 360-degree

    24 capability. General awareness is far greater if you

    25 have your head out of the turret, however.

  104. 1 Q. Tell me, on the basis of which facts did you

    2 conclude that there was danger of minefields?

    3 A. I didn't conclude that there was any danger,

    4 I was just being prudent because if you stick to

    5 tarmac, if you stick to tarmac, you have less chance of

    6 being blown up. I was not in any way trying to risk my

    7 life or that of my soldiers or my government's

    8 property, in fact; and therefore, we stuck to the

    9 tracks, as we do today and as I did when I was recently

    10 in Bosnia.

    11 Q. In the part of Ahmici that is just by the

    12 road and part of Ahmici is on the other side of the

    13 road, after all, could you exactly identify every house

    14 that would be Muslim as opposed to houses that would

    15 be, for example, Croat?

    16 A. All I had was an understanding that,

    17 generally speaking, houses with four-sided roofs,

    18 pyramidal shaped were generally Muslim and that

    19 houses with Swiss-style two-sided roofs were generally

    20 Croat, and that was a good rule to go by. It wasn't

    21 necessarily 100 per cent, but it was a good way of

    22 adding to your confirmation.

    23 Q. But you do allow that there were exceptions?

    24 A. Absolutely. But generally speaking, houses

    25 all around a minaret tend to be Muslim 'cause it's easy

  105. 1 to get to your prayer.

    2 Q. One thing that I'm not quite clear on in your

    3 conduct, when you went with your armoured vehicles and

    4 before you picked up the dead bodies, did you check

    5 previously whether there were any other wounded, or did

    6 you start picking up the dead bodies once you had

    7 asserted that there were no other casualties, wounded?

    8 A. Referring to the specific task in the

    9 evening, at about 6.00, I was tasked just to assist

    10 Lieutenant Dooley and therefore we, rather than

    11 creeping in our mission, we just conducted the removal

    12 of those five bodies and then finished with that task

    13 and went back to our base in Vitez. So to answer the

    14 question, I didn't -- we didn't make a point of going

    15 into any more buildings to try and find people that

    16 were injured because that was not our task.

    17 Q. The dead bodies that you found, did you

    18 inspect each of them individually, or what did you do?

    19 Because you spoke of the possibility of wounding from

    20 one position or another, back wounds, and so on. For

    21 example, the body where you found that the wound came

    22 from, the entrance wound was from the back. Did it

    23 have an exit wound?

    24 A. I did not have the time to just -- because we

    25 were vulnerable, I did not have the time to inspect

  106. 1 bodies. What I do remember of the bodies that were

    2 lying in the way I believe they fell, I -- on their

    3 front or on their back or whatever, they were not there

    4 as a result of being piled up or anything, they were

    5 there having either been running away, it was that

    6 there was several splotches of blood on those bodies in

    7 most cases which suggested to me that they had been

    8 engaged maybe with automatic fire.

    9 Q. Very well. I've understood that. But I'm

    10 not quite clear whether you looked for an exit wound

    11 or, if not -- let me ask this more exactly: How do you

    12 know that the back wound was an entrance wound?

    13 A. I don't remember talking about any back wound

    14 in this particular case. I talked about a back wound

    15 in the morning at Ahmici, which is the first man I

    16 spoke to. He had a back wound. The men that were

    17 dead -- sorry, the man in the morning, at 11.00 --

    18 Q. He was wounded --

    19 A. -- he was very alive, although very annoyed,

    20 and he had a back wound. The men that were dead lying

    21 -- the five men in the field, they had all sorts of

    22 injuries, and I didn't have the time to particularly

    23 inspect them because the entry wound seemed to have

    24 done significant damage and a back wound -- an exit

    25 wound seemed irrelevant, really, because they were not

  107. 1 moving.

    2 Q. Very well. Then we agree, with regard to the

    3 dead bodies, that you cannot say whether they were shot

    4 from the back or from the front.

    5 A. No, but they were -- from what I could see,

    6 they were shot -- where they lay was where they had

    7 been shot or within yards of where they had been shot

    8 because they were lying in a way that was random; in

    9 other words, they might have been fleeing or whatever.

    10 Q. Tell me, please, the opinion you have just

    11 given us belongs to the area of forensics, the

    12 mechanisms of the wound, but what I'm interested in is

    13 in what you saw with your own eyes, that is to say,

    14 whether they were entry/exit wounds and whether all the

    15 wounds were in the back.

    16 You said just now that you did not inspect

    17 the bodies and that quite possibly they could have been

    18 entry wounds, that is to say, from the front; is that

    19 correct?

    20 A. They could have been any wounds. As I just

    21 said, I didn't have the time to inspect them. There

    22 were five civilian --

    23 Q. That's right, yes.

    24 A. -- lying in the field, and they were lying

    25 where they had been shot, and the fact is that there

  108. 1 were dead men, some elderly, who were very dead. As a

    2 result of entry or exit wounds, it seemed irrelevant.

    3 I didn't have the time to look at them either.

    4 Q. That's right, yes. Okay. That's all right.

    5 Tell me, do you know whether, on that day, there were

    6 dead Croats as well?

    7 A. I didn't see any dead Croats, so I had no

    8 need -- I have no understanding or belief that there

    9 were any.

    10 Q. Very well. Believe it or not, it doesn't

    11 matter; the facts are what interests us.

    12 On the basis of what indices were you able to

    13 differentiate between dead Muslims and dead Croats?

    14 A. The houses. The dead people that we picked

    15 up were sitting next to houses that had been burnt

    16 out. You can make an assumption that maybe the houses

    17 were set fire to and they exited and were shot, but

    18 that aside, I didn't see that, so we can't presume

    19 that. But there were dead people next to houses in a

    20 Muslim village, the houses having been destroyed, the

    21 houses all very near a minaret, and these are the facts

    22 that led me to believe that these were Muslim people

    23 who were dead in a Muslim village next to a minaret and

    24 next to burned-out houses. These are facts. And also

    25 evidence from earlier in the morning where the woman

  109. 1 had told me, you know, that she had witnessed an attack

    2 by Croats early that morning and that -- she was

    3 obviously Muslim, with her house, which is about 15

    4 yards from a minaret, et cetera, et cetera.

    5 Q. Very well. But the people you found in the

    6 field that you mentioned, they were neither at home --

    7 and the woman that you talked to couldn't have told you

    8 anything about them.

    9 A. No. I agree, yeah.

    10 Q. That means that, in fact, you are giving a

    11 conclusion whereas you have not got a concrete

    12 incident, and the conclusions are on the basis of what

    13 you heard from the Muslim woman and from the other

    14 stories, but no measures were taken for the

    15 identification of those individuals. Have I understood

    16 you correctly?

    17 A. That's right, no specific identification of

    18 them, but as I say, the series of facts which I've

    19 described led me to believe that these were Muslim --

    20 Q. That's all right. You've already told us

    21 that, yes.

    22 And now my final question -- perhaps I've

    23 already asked it, perhaps not -- but it has to do with

    24 the five men that were mentioned, at the beginning that

    25 you mentioned, that you met with Kalashnikovs at around

  110. 1 11.00 a.m. Did you in any way inform yourself of

    2 whether they were from Ahmici or whether they had come

    3 from outside Ahmici?

    4 A. No. And as I said earlier, I wasn't sure

    5 where they had come from, I didn't speak to them,

    6 specifically those men, and if you remember, I did say

    7 I was surprised that they were still in one piece,

    8 having had no combat, because they were there in the

    9 village, and had they been there when the attack went

    10 in, they would have probably got involved in it so ...

    11 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. I have no further

    12 questions.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.

    14 Mr. Smith, any re-examination?

    15 MR. SMITH: Just a few questions, Your

    16 Honour.

    17 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:

    18 Q. Major Woolley, I just have a few questions to

    19 clear up in relation to the questions that Mr. Radovic

    20 just asked you regarding the dead bodies that you

    21 picked up from the side of the road.

    22 You don't know the addresses -- you didn't

    23 know the addresses of where they, in fact, lived, did

    24 you?

    25 A. No, I didn't.

  111. 1 Q. So it's quite possible they could have lived

    2 in the area just next to where they were found?

    3 A. Correct, yeah.

    4 Q. And my friend also asked you some questions

    5 in relation to the legitimacy of an operation such as

    6 Ahmici, and he mentioned the topic of -- the importance

    7 of routes as far as being legitimate military

    8 objectives in terms of securing them, and you agreed

    9 with that, that some routes can be legitimate military

    10 objectives and thus can be secured or can be secured

    11 within the meaning of the laws of war?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. The villages of Loncari and Jelinak, how far

    14 off the main road are they, off the main route between

    15 Vitez and Busovaca?

    16 A. They're quite a way off the Busovaca-Vitez

    17 route, but the route then bends round towards Zenica,

    18 obviously a Muslim area, and therefore I would say

    19 they're of less relevance to the Croats, to the HVO.

    20 Q. If I can produce to you this map, it's a

    21 1:50.000 map of the general area of Vitez and Busovaca,

    22 and you'll see the villages of Jelinak and Loncari, and

    23 can you relate that map to that main route --

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. -- between Vitez and Busovaca?

  112. 1 Your Honour, that map has some markings on it

    2 which are quite irrelevant, so I would just ask that

    3 that be noted in the transcript, irrelevant to the

    4 particular point.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: The map is marked 242.

    6 MR. SMITH:

    7 Q. Looking at that map, can you point out the

    8 villages of Loncari and Jelinak?

    9 A. There is Loncari and here is Jelinak

    10 (indicating), and I understand -- let's have a look --

    11 Busovaca I think is down this route, down here, this is

    12 the junction and this is the road that links Vitez --

    13 sorry. This is the road that links Vitez and Busovaca

    14 down here, and, of course, here we have Ahmici. So

    15 this is the road that we've been looking at all day,

    16 and yet here is Loncari and here is Jelinak which, with

    17 regard this line of communication, are pretty

    18 irrelevant with regard picketing or securing of this

    19 route here.

    20 Is that the question you wanted answering?

    21 Q. Would it be militarily necessary to cause the

    22 damage that you saw -- you've given evidence --

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac? An

    24 objection.

    25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, in

  113. 1 relation to this part of the witness's testimony which

    2 keeps returning to the two villages, I must say that

    3 these events are outside the duration and time of the

    4 incrimination and the events of the HVO. These places

    5 are not mentioned in the indictment, and we hear for

    6 the first time that for this particular part on the

    7 16th, that the indictment is being expanded to include

    8 these two places because they are not included in the

    9 indictment, we hear them for the first time, we don't

    10 know the time at which they are happening, and I think

    11 that this line of questioning should not be allowed

    12 because it outsteps the framework of the indictment.

    13 We also consider that we cannot reply to this

    14 because we hear of it for the first time as the region

    15 of HVO activity. They have not been put forward. This

    16 is the first time that this is being done. Thank you.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: The objection is overruled

    18 for the reasons I set out before when responding to the

    19 objection raised by Counsel Radovic. It is relevant,

    20 the facts relating to these two villages are relevant

    21 to the indictment to the extent that it relates to

    22 crimes against humanity and widespread practice.

    23 Widespread practice cannot last one day. It must, of

    24 course, last a few days or a few months or a few years.

    25 You may respond when it comes to the Defence

  114. 1 case. In any case, we are now in the course of

    2 re-examination. So I would allow the Prosecutor to put

    3 his question.

    4 MR. SMITH:

    5 Q. If the HVO wanted to secure the route between

    6 Vitez and Busovaca, is it militarily necessary to cause

    7 the destruction, and in the particular case of Jelinak,

    8 the killing to secure that route?

    9 A. No. Jelinak is a long way away from that

    10 route. Jelinak is here (indicating), and this is the

    11 main route linking Vitez and Busovaca, and all that you

    12 would require to do to ensure the security of that

    13 route is push out up to the highest ground in order

    14 that you have a good field of view and field of fire,

    15 in order to picket that route as we've described, and

    16 therefore, Jelinak, I think, is far to far to the

    17 north, with several hills between it and the road, to

    18 be of any relevance, certainly with regard burnt bodies

    19 with limbs chopped off, et cetera, dead livestock and

    20 burnt-out civilian houses.

    21 Q. Can you ring the villages of Jelinak and

    22 Loncari on that exhibit? Thank you. Probably with a

    23 red --

    24 A. Sorry. I beg your pardon. (Marks)

    25 Q. I would like to ask that same question of you

  115. 1 in relation to the village of Ahmici. Was it, in your

    2 opinion, militarily necessary to cause the damage and

    3 the killing that you saw right into the village of

    4 Ahmici and right up the road, in fact where you went,

    5 in order -- if that was an objective, in order to

    6 secure that route? Was that damage and that killing

    7 and that injury militarily necessary? Is there another

    8 way of doing it?

    9 A. It is absolutely unnecessary to destroy

    10 civilian houses, especially undefended ones that have

    11 no signs of fortification, should I say. Certainly not

    12 necessary to maim or injure or attempt to kill or kill

    13 children or old people, or livestock, for that matter.

    14 The way to do it is to basically close with and destroy

    15 any armed units that are in that village, take any

    16 prisoners of war; and any civilians or refugees who are

    17 causing a disturbance, to use a provost unit to secure

    18 them so that they don't interfere with the security of

    19 your operation and the lines of communication. I don't

    20 see any point in destroying a village and its people to

    21 conduct that intent.

    22 Q. Apart from those four men that you saw with

    23 rifles at the beginning of the village, were there any

    24 other obvious legitimate military targets within the

    25 village, like military installations, communications

  116. 1 centre, anything that would tend to suggest that it was

    2 an obvious military target?

    3 A. In the village on the day of the 16th, I

    4 saw -- and subsequently anyway, I saw no dug-in

    5 positions, sangars, communication centres, any

    6 weapons. All I saw which gave me a feeling of anything

    7 military was four or five men at about 11.00 who were

    8 not in uniform and were carrying AK-47s.

    9 Q. And if only for my own clarity, can you

    10 explain to the Court what a sangar is?

    11 A. A sangar is an Indian name for a defensive

    12 position which is built up from the ground with a

    13 series of stones or rocks or sandbags, a defensive

    14 post.

    15 MR. SMITH: No further questions, Your

    16 Honour.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is

    18 no objection to the witness being released.

    19 Major Woolley, thank you so much for coming

    20 here to court to give evidence. You may now be

    21 released.

    22 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

    23 (The witness withdrew)

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Let me thank the Prosecution

    25 for kindly providing us with this list of witnesses.

  117. 1 It is agreed that it is not in the proper order. You

    2 will sort out the order maybe on Monday so that Defence

    3 counsel will know how you will start. I wonder whether

    4 you have already included the witness, the lady that

    5 the Court is going to call? I had no time to check.

    6 So we will have to include -- it's not on the list. We

    7 will include -- yes?

    8 MR. TERRIER: No, Your Honour, it is not on

    9 the list, and another witness does not appear on the

    10 list, a gentleman who is waiting in the witness room.

    11 We had planned to hear him this afternoon, but I don't

    12 think it will be possible. It is rather late already.

    13 So I think we should add the name of this witness to

    14 the list, in fact his name should appear in the first

    15 place on the list of the witnesses to be heard Monday.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: In the old list,

    17 No. 5. Actually, he has not requested any protective

    18 measures, so we can mention his name. No. 5?

    19 MR. TERRIER: I believe it is, yes, Your

    20 Honour. He has asked for protective measures, Your

    21 Honour. Although it is not mentioned on the list, he

    22 has asked for protective measures, so let us not

    23 mention his name. Yes, No. 5.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: He was scheduled for this

    25 afternoon, and then -- he will be the first one Monday

  118. 1 morning.

    2 MR. TERRIER: Yes, he will be the first one.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: We will also add the name of

    4 the lady who should come over here probably on Tuesday,

    5 Wednesday, I don't know. We will make sure through the

    6 Unit for the Protection of Victims and Witnesses.

    7 All right. Thank you. I hope that soon we

    8 will receive the submissions, the Defence counsel

    9 submissions or suggestions concerning the visit to

    10 Ahmici if, of course, you are prepared and willing to

    11 submit those suggestions.

    12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Today.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Today? Wonderful. Thank

    14 you. So we will adjourn until next Monday at 9.30.

    15 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    16 4.53 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

    17 the 5th day of October, 1998, at

    18 9.30 a.m.