2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the
6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and
8 Vladimir Santic also know as "Vlado".
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.
10 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Your Honours.
11 Our first witness this morning is witness number 1 on
12 the list that we have established for this week. This
13 witness will testify under a number of protective
14 measures. We are now quite used to them. Pseudonym Z
15 will be attributed to this witness today.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Very well.
17 (The witness entered court)
18 THE WITNESS: Witness Z.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Will you
20 please make the solemn declaration?
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
1 A. Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: This document is Exhibit
4 Examined by Mr. Terrier:
5 Q. Good morning, witness. First of all, I would
6 like to inform you of the fact that this Chamber has
7 granted you a number of protective measures. Your face
8 will be distorted on the public screens and you have
9 been attributed a pseudonym. Therefore, you can
10 testify without fearing that anything you will say will
11 be known publicly, and you can say everything you have
12 been a witness to.
19 Q. In 1992/1993, did you live in Ahmici?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Without giving too precise information, could
22 you tell us where in Ahmici you used to live, which
23 area of the village? Without showing us the location
24 of your house, could you show us the general area in
25 which you lived in Ahmici, please?
1 A. This region (indicating). Just a moment,
2 please. I apologise. Just a moment. I'm a little
4 Q. Please take your time. Take the time to
5 orientate yourself on this map.
6 A. There (indicating).
7 Q. Thank you very much. Could you now please
8 describe your family, and could you tell us who were
9 the members of your family in 1992/1993?
10 A. I lived with my father and mother. I was
11 married at the time, I had a wife. My father was born
12 in 1946, my mother was born in 1950. My wife was born
13 in 1973. We lived happily. We didn't have any
14 problems. That's it.
15 Q. Where do you live today, Witness Z?
16 A. Today I live in Ahmici. I went back home
17 there. (redacted)
20 (redacted) entered the village
21 officially, and we started to rebuild our houses and
22 clear up the village, and up till about 10 to 15 days
23 ago when my house was completed and I went back to my
25 Q. So you've only went back to Ahmici very
2 A. Yes, this year.
3 Q. I would now like to ask you a number of
4 things on the period of time going from '92 to March
5 1993. At that time what was your job? What did you
7 A. As I was a member of the Territorial Defence,
8 I spent most of my time in Vitez, from October -- the
9 20th of October I was in the village of Ahmici. I came
10 there on assignment as member of the Territorial
11 Defence, and I spent most of my time at the
12 headquarters of the Territorial Defence.
13 In October 1992, I spent that time in Ahmici,
14 up until the day when the first conflict took place. I
15 was in Ahmici for 15 days before that, because I didn't
16 go to Vitez. So I spent those 15 days, that period, in
17 Ahmici, until the relevant authorities decided on a
18 conflict. I was not able to take up my duties because
19 the conflict was ongoing. And as members of the
20 Territorial Defence, and generally as the Muslim
21 Bosnian population, we were not allowed to move about,
22 so that I did not go to my own house because of that in
23 1992, the 20th of October, as I say, up until the
24 35th (sic). I was not able to go back home. I was in
25 the upper part of Ahmici. That is the 30th of May.
1 But once, on the eighth or ninth day, when
2 the relevant authorities at a high level, I don't know
3 exactly, but they decided -- we decided to be at the
4 entrance to Ahmici as a sort of checkpoint, because the
5 Croats held that point and did not allow anybody to
6 enter the village after that decision was made. And as
7 I lived in Lower Ahmici, I was assigned to that
8 particular point. It only lasted perhaps one shift,
9 and it lasted for two hours, not more. That was the
10 shift that I worked.
11 And that was the first time that I went home
12 to see what was happening, whether it had been looted.
13 Generally speaking, nothing had been taken away but the
14 house was shelled. And my mother and my father, on the
15 20th, that is to say the night between the 19th and the
16 20th of October, they were in the house with some other
17 villagers and those that had survived the shelling of
18 the house. They were in the house. And it was only on
19 the 20th, at about noon, that they left the house and
20 went towards Upper Ahmici.
21 And on that occasion, I was at that
22 checkpoint where I was -- the point to which I was
23 assigned to do a two-hour shift, and I can tell you the
24 names of the people who were with me if you like,
25 because there were others with me. There was Mirjan
1 Kupreskic, Ivica Kupreskic, Vinko Vidovic and myself.
2 And that is when I saw them for the first time after
3 the conflict. We were all together at the entrance to
4 the village.
5 And then after 15 -- 15 days later, for the
6 first time, I went -- as we were lodged in Vitez, in
7 the secondary school centre in Vitez called Boris
8 Kidric centre, and as the conflict had already broken
9 out and they were all expelled and had fled to Stari
10 Vitez. So that it was only after 15 days that I went
11 to the Territorial Defence headquarters to report for
12 duty there. As I was in the Military Police, I was in
13 charge of the security of the Territorial Defence
14 headquarters. And I also went up to the frontline,
15 towards the Serbs, frequently, towards Vlasic, towards
16 Visoko, and we were escorted by the army and so on.
17 Right up until the conflict in 1993, I was on
18 the duty at the Territorial Defence headquarters in
19 Stari Vitez, and I went home from time to time.
20 Sometimes I would stay 15 days, depending what the
21 duties were and what my job was.
22 On the 16th of April, that terrible day of
23 1993, that fateful day, I had come back one or two days
24 prior to that. I had gone home prior to that date to
25 have a rest, and that is how I found myself there on --
1 in my house on the 16th of April.
2 Q. A moment ago you told us about this
3 checkpoint that was established at the entrance of
4 Ahmici after the events of 1992. What was the aim of
5 this checkpoint? Why was it established there?
6 A. As I said, one or two days before, that is to
7 say on the 19th or 20th, I had come back home, and as
8 the situation was not as it should have been, there
9 were conflicts in Busovaca, that's when they attacked
10 Stani (phoen), Merdani and Kovacevci, we saw this,
11 because it's not far away from where we are. There was
12 fire, everything was burning.
13 I can say something I forgot to mention a
14 moment ago, and that is that when Eso Salkic was
15 killed, that is when he was blown to smithereens in his
16 house, he lived in Nadioci, and we went to the funeral,
17 to the Genaza as it's called, and I saw a VBR, a
18 grenade launcher, in the Vlasko Polje, and it was
19 targeted toward Merdani, in that direction. And when
20 we went to the funeral, we saw that it had been
21 positioned in that way. It has nine grenades. It's a
22 small rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
23 At the control checkpoint we were issued a
24 sort of order, I don't know by whom the order was
25 given, but we were told to leave the checkpoint on the
1 19th of October. As I was already working in the
2 Military Police, and as I had already been at the
3 combined checkpoints, I was designated to man that
4 checkpoint, because on the 19th, in Vitez, the
5 municipality of Vitez, they had started to confiscate
6 cars, vehicles. They looted flats and stormed into
7 houses but we knew nothing of this. We learned of
8 these incidents later on. We learnt of everything that
9 had happened on the 19th. And, as I say, the situation
10 was very tense. Armies passed, all kinds of armies.
11 There were all kinds of uniforms passing by.
12 I succeeded in coming. I was able to come.
13 Otherwise, they did not allow us -- that is to say, our
14 side in the Territorial Defence, they didn't allow us
15 to go home for our own safety, so as not to be beaten
16 up, for example, because that's what they did do. I
17 was not able to carry a rifle anywhere, only if I hid
18 it somewhere in my car and was able to bring it into my
19 house, secretly. But generally, it stayed at the
20 Territorial Defence headquarters.
21 So I was at the checkpoint up until
22 approximately 3.00 in the morning. I went home. I
23 went home to sleep, because I was very tired. It was
24 late. I woke up at about half past four. I was very
25 nervous. We were all nervous and tense. I got up. My
1 mother stayed in the house. She was the only one that
2 stayed there. I went towards the upper part of the
3 village of Ahmici. We call that part --
4 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you Witness Z, but
5 I have a question I want to put to you. You spoke of
6 three individuals a moment ago, three individuals who
7 were present at the checkpoint which was established
8 after October 1992. It was established at the entrance
9 of Ahmici. You gave us the three names of these
10 individuals, but could you tell us how these people
11 were dressed when you saw them, and could you also tell
12 us if they were carrying weapons or guns?
13 A. When I came there, I found Mirjan Kupreskic
14 there, as well as Ivica Kupreskic and Vinko Vidovic.
15 All three were wearing uniforms. They had automatic
16 rifles. They had camouflage uniforms. They did not
17 have any caps on their heads. They had uniforms and
19 Q. Did you have Croat neighbours close to your
20 house or close to your parents' house?
21 A. Well, not far off from me, not even 100
22 metres away, my next door neighbour was Vlado Santic.
23 His father was also there, Jozo Santic. And not far
24 off from him there was Drago Josipovic. That is my
25 immediate circle of neighbours, not 100 metres off from
1 us, because I am from that lower part.
2 Q. Could you tell us more about Vlado Santic?
3 What kind of relationship did you have with this
5 A. Well, good. We had good relationships. Even
6 to the present day, I say hello to him after everything
7 that we have experienced and lived through. I have
8 nothing to say to him. He's a good neighbour. He's
9 okay. His father and his brother, they're okay.
10 Q. And what was your relationship like with your
11 other neighbour, Drago Josipovic?
12 A. Josipovic. Well, I say hello when he says
13 hello. He wasn't a good neighbour though.
14 Can I give an example to the Court,
15 illustrating what kind of man Drago Josipovic was?
16 Q. Please go on.
17 A. Well, in 1992, we organised ourselves in the
18 village to have a collection for the hospital in
19 Travnik, sort of a humanitarian aid, a collection
20 drive, as there was a crisis everywhere with the
21 conflicts just beginning at Vlasic, and the country was
22 in the process of disintegrating. We, as the
23 villagers, myself and my mother, for the lower part of
24 the village, and the others were up in the upper part,
25 in Upper Ahmici. We wanted to make a collection drive
1 for the hospital in Travnik. Some of the women would
2 make pies. We would collect milk for the hospital in
4 We took this relief -- or it came to the
5 house of Luca, who is Drago's mother. Drago Josipovic
6 was sitting at the table with another man whom I did
7 not know, and we arrived at the house and we started
8 explaining why we had come and what we were doing, that
9 we were collecting food for the hospital in Travnik.
10 And he said angrily at that, "Why are you doing this?
11 It's not your job to collect food, we have our own."
12 And his mother Luca said to him, angrily, she liked to
13 swear a bit when she spoke, and she said, "Well,
14 begging your pardon, don't shit around. He's -- she's
15 come to me and not to you." So the mother brought to
16 the school in Ahmici, her contribution, which is where
17 we were collecting food and which we took to Travnik to
18 the hospital by combi.
19 As I say, we would say hello to one another
20 when we saw each other, but we did not have any good
21 relations and we did not go visiting each other.
22 Q. Did you know Drago Josipovic's wife?
23 A. Yes, Slavica. And that is -- how shall I put
24 it? Well, she comes from an angry Ustashe family.
25 That's what her brother was, Nenad, and I suppose some
1 of it rubbed off on her as well. It seems to be in
2 their blood.
3 Q. What is the name of the brother of Drago
4 Josipovic's wife? You said Nenad, I think, but what is
5 his family name?
6 A. (No audible response)
7 Q. Have you ever seen Drago Josipovic dressed in
8 a uniform?
9 A. Yes, I did see him previously, and he was
10 assigned to this area where we used to collect. He was
11 at my entrance, and whenever the situation was not as
12 it should have been, he was there with a rifle, usually
13 wearing civilian clothes, but I did see him in uniform,
14 as well, on occasion. He would always move around. He
15 always knew what was happening. He was well-informed.
16 Q. Can we then say that all the Croats in
17 Ahmici, at that particular point in time, were dressed
18 with a uniform and carried a gun around? Was that
19 something that was customary?
20 A. No, not everybody wore uniforms, because some
21 people worked in the firm, others at checkpoints.
22 Depending on what assignment you were given, that is
23 the type of clothing you would wear. If somebody was
24 in the Croatian Defence Council, and they were all in
25 the Croatian Defence Council, in fact, but, for the
1 most part, the uniforms were kept hidden at home. Some
2 of them did wear uniforms all the time.
3 Q. You mentioned a moment ago your Croat
4 neighbour, Vlado Santic. Did you ever see him wearing
5 a uniform?
6 A. No. He did not wear a uniform. He avoided
7 doing so. On one occasion, he said, "If the Muslims
8 were to patrol the village and take up watches, so will
9 I. If they are not going to do it, then I won't
10 either." I think that he was forced to put on a
11 uniform, which, allegedly -- on Tuesday in 1993, on
12 Tuesday, three days before that, he went to Turbe, up
13 to the frontline. I think that that is the first
14 occasion where he wore his uniform. He didn't want to
15 put a uniform on and to move about. He wanted to be
16 like everybody else.
17 MR. TERRIER: I would just like to specify
18 that the Vlado Santic that the witness is telling us
19 about is not the accused. It's an individual who has
20 the very same name as the accused in this case.
21 Q. Can you tell us more about Dragan Papic? Did
22 you have any particular kind of relationship with that
24 A. We were neighbours. We had a good
25 relationship. His father would come to our house,
1 too. We would visit. You know, we weren't on bad
2 terms. But what got into Dragan Papic and all these
3 others and into the people in general, what kind of
4 hatred this was, as of late, I mean, when this first
5 conflict broke out and the second conflict broke out,
6 ever since then, we haven't had any contact.
7 Q. Did you ever see Dragan Papic wearing a
9 A. Yes. He wore a black uniform non-stop. The
10 sleeves were a bit too short for him. He always wore a
11 uniform. From October 1992 and then until 1993, he was
12 invariably seen in a black uniform.
13 Q. Did he carry a weapon?
14 A. Yes. On one occasion, I saw him carrying a
15 sniper towards Vlatko Kupreskic's. He went in that
16 direction, towards them, and he went through the
17 village by the school, and that is where we saw each
18 other, as we passed each other by the school.
19 Q. Did you have a gun and did you use and carry
20 a gun in Ahmici?
21 A. Yes. I had an automatic rifle which I
22 brought from Slimena. It was a burned rifle because we
23 had really improvised the rifle butt and things like
24 that. It was not a safe rifle. It was a rifle, but it
25 was not 100 per cent safe.
1 Q. Could you tell us where this weapon came
3 A. Well, it's from the former Yugoslav People's
4 Army, from their warehouse in Slimena, which belonged
5 to Travnik. It was taken over, handed over, whatever,
6 this warehouse, because it had been mined, too. We got
7 all of this out of the debris. There were some new
8 rifles, some real rifles, but the Croatian army had
9 taken some of it, the Territorial Defence, the HVO, the
10 people themselves got some things out, and that's the
11 way it was.
12 Q. Witness Z, I would like you now to tell us
13 about the events which took place in April 1993. First
14 of all, would you please tell us what you did on the
15 night from the 15th to the 16th of April, 1993?
16 A. On the 15th of April, the silence was
17 unbearable. One cannot describe it, this atmosphere,
18 the way it was, as if there were no birds around. You
19 could only hear a car or two pass by.
20 In the evenings when I was off, we would go
21 out in front of the house, and that is where I went
22 that evening, too. I was there until 2.00 a.m. with a
23 refugee, Galib Imsirevic, who lived in my uncle's
24 house. He was a refugee from Karaula. He and I were
25 there. We were taking care of the house, walking
2 The atmosphere wasn't that great, really. We
3 were all tense. We were all nervous. We were all
4 afraid as to what would happen, what would not happen,
5 whether there would be a war, whether there would not
6 be a war. No one trusted anyone anymore, but we took
7 care of each, and we tried to make sure that nobody
8 walked up to the house.
9 I was there until 2.00 with Galib Imsirevic.
10 After 2.00, his father came, and he said, "Why don't
11 you go into the house now and I'll stay on for awhile?
12 I'll take care of it." They were there with their
13 family, wife and children. I didn't have any family
14 then, but my mother was in the house. My father wasn't
15 there. He was a driver. He worked in the Princip
16 factory, and he was away on business in Croatia.
17 At 2.00, he took over and we went into the
18 house, and I went to bed in a uniform. I just laid
19 down. All of a sudden, I heard shooting. This was the
20 morning of the 16th. Believe me, I didn't know where I
21 was when I heard this shooting. It was nearby. It was
22 really nearby.
23 When I got out of my room into the hallway, I
24 saw my mother standing there. She was lost. The first
25 bullet had hit the niche through the window in the
1 kitchen where my mother was asleep. She got up and she
2 was beside herself. She didn't know what was going on
3 because she had been asleep to, and she didn't know
4 what was going on. I was just telling her to duck, to
5 lie down on the floor, so that they wouldn't start
6 shooting at the windows again; otherwise, they would
7 hit her.
8 Well, that's how it started, this second
9 conflict of the 16th of April. I was at home until
10 8.00, around 8.00. I was at home with my mother and my
11 wife. In the morning when the shooting broke out, I
12 opened the door. Because I ran to the door with a
13 rifle in my hand, and I saw people in uniform running
14 to my yard. They had helmets on, too. They were
15 running from my house towards my uncle's house, up
16 there, towards the road. I saw at least ten men
17 there. I didn't recognise them, but they were running
18 across there. There was some construction material
19 there for building a new house, so they were running
20 that way. I didn't know at all what was going on in my
21 uncle's house. The house was drilled, his house and
23 In the morning, I would peek out of the
24 window from the corner every now and then, and I saw,
25 at that moment, I don't know, it seemed to me like five
1 minutes or ten minutes, Abdulah Ahmic's and Fahran
2 Ahmic's houses were on fire. I saw bullets from
3 anti-aircraft guns. You could see this part called
4 Krcevine, that is, the lower part of Ahmici, near the
5 lower mosque and the school. So it was at these houses
6 that the shooting was aimed against.
7 I realised that these houses were on fire,
8 too, and I had the feeling, at that time, that within
9 five or ten minutes, as I was telling you, a house
10 would burn down, because a lot of wood was on these
11 houses, not only the roofs, but beams. We didn't know
12 what to do, whether to go some place. If I had any
13 possibility of defending myself, I would have, but I
14 didn't have any possibility of doing that.
15 My mother was there and my wife, who was
16 pregnant at the time, was there. She had already had a
17 baby out of fear. It was a stillborn baby, and she had
18 to hide all day with my mother and these refugees. So,
19 of course, she suffered the consequence of having a
20 stillborn baby.
21 Q. Witness Z, on that particular morning, did
22 you use your weapon?
23 A. No, no. I was afraid for my wife's safety
24 and my mother's safety. Were I on my own, perhaps I
25 would have defended myself, because I think it was my
1 duty. I mean, what were these men in uniform with
2 rifles doing in my yard anyway? What would they be
3 doing there, otherwise? Why would they come, except to
4 kill me? If I were on my own, I would have defended
5 myself. But had I been shooting, myself, then they
6 could have killed my wife or my mother or whoever. It
7 was all the same to me whether they would kill me, but
8 I didn't want them to kill my wife or my mother, not to
9 harm them in any way.
10 Q. What did you do with your weapon?
11 A. When I saw men in uniform in my yard, I took
12 off my uniform, the uniform I had. I hid my rifle in
13 the oven. It's a Rayburn type oven, stove. I took off
14 the magazine clip, too. I had that also. I put all of
15 that into the stove, and I had trousers and a jacket on
16 and a T-shirt, I think.
17 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Usher, would you please
18 hand this blow-up to the witness?
19 Your Honour, maybe we could go into a closed
20 session. This would enable the witness to tell us
21 where his house was located.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Let us go into closed
24 (Closed session)
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11 (Open session)
12 Q. Witness Z, could you show us on this
13 photograph the point on the road where the UNPROFOR
14 vehicle stopped?
15 A. Yes. From Vlado's we ran here, here. This
16 is where we ran out. This is where one APC stopped,
17 and the other one turned here (indicating). This one
18 turned here by us.
19 Q. Using a marker, could you please put an
20 indication on the point where the vehicle stopped?
21 A. There were two APCs. The first turned at
22 this point, and the second turned here (marks).
23 Q. Thank you very much. That's fine.
24 Mr. Usher, could you please hand this photograph over
25 to the witness, please?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 245.
2 MR. TERRIER:
3 Q. Witness Z, could you please tell us what this
4 photograph depicts?
5 A. Yes. That is the scene when we had come up
6 in front of the APCs. This is my mother. It was a
7 group of us. I can't tell you exactly who is who there
8 on the picture, although I know exactly who was there.
9 I can just recognise my mother.
10 When the APC turned round, it turned round in
11 front of us in the direction of Vitez, as if to go
12 back. At that point the first APC came back, and the
13 doors opened and we started going in. The group of
14 civilians started entering the APC.
15 At that moment, on the right-hand side, I had
16 probably -- was the fifth to go in or the sixth. One
17 group went up to this APC, and the rest of us, eight of
18 us, there were eight of us in the first carrier, and at
19 that time, on the right-hand side, I saw Aladin who was
20 working there waved to me, but I wasn't able to help
21 him because I was afraid myself. I was afraid of being
22 killed, because at that time I don't think that they
23 had any idea that an IFOR or a SFOR would turn up. So
24 we were all frightened. I saw him on the right-hand
25 side, to the right of me, but we were busy getting into
1 the APC as fast as possible.
2 Q. So this photograph was taken when the
3 UNPROFOR vehicle started turning around and before you
4 went in to leave Ahmici. You told us about this
5 individual who signalled to you, an individual named
6 Aladin. Do you know the family name of this
7 individual, and also, could you tell us where he was
8 exactly and why was he signalling to you?
9 A. Aladin Karahodza, Karahodza was his surname,
10 and he worked at the Veternica fuel stock as a night
11 watchman. I didn't know what had happened to him.
12 On the 15th, at night, he was on duty doing
13 his shift, between the 15th and the 16th, at the Ogrjev
14 plant where he was a night watchman. He waved to me,
15 and it was only on the next day that I learned that he
16 had been captured, and that -- on the 16th, in the
17 morning, Drago Josipovic came to him and took his
18 official gun away from him and told him -- and
19 threatened him, and he was in the room the whole day,
20 and I am very sorry that he is not alive here with me
21 today to confirm and bear out what I am saying.
22 He waved to us for us to help him, but we
23 weren't able to help him because we were frightened
24 ourselves. I didn't know that he had gone outside. I
25 only learned of this the next day, because as I say, we
1 were going to the Travnik hospital, and I was in shock,
2 and I woke up at the hospital in Travnik.
3 Q. This individual is dead?
4 A. Yes. Yes, he died.
5 Q. Did he tell you what had happened?
6 A. Yes. On the 17th --
7 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I would like to
8 make an objection. The question is hearsay. That is
9 to say what somebody else told the witness. All the
10 more so as the witness, Mr. President, has, on several
11 occasions so far with regard to the circumstances,
12 given different statements.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but you know, we do
14 admit hearsay evidence under our Rules of Procedure, so
15 it is not to be ruled out. So you can go on.
16 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. So you stepped into the UNPROFOR APC. At
18 that precise moment in time did you notice anything
19 else around you?
20 A. When I went in I saw Aladin on the right-hand
21 side waving to us. At that moment it was my turn to go
22 into the vehicle, and I looked to the left where I saw
23 a group of soldiers led by -- I saw Drago Josipovic
24 with four other men, four other soldiers who were with
25 him, and they were wearing camouflage uniforms.
1 Q. How far was this group of soldiers from you?
2 A. It wasn't far away. Twenty metres away, for
4 Q. And what were they doing?
5 A. That was the entrance, the gate towards Hasim
6 and his son Fahran Ahmic, and he stood at the entrance,
7 at the gateway by the fence. They were just standing
8 there, and I was able to recognise him because he was
9 not standing far off.
10 Q. You told us he was wearing a uniform. What
11 kind of uniform was it?
12 A. Well, they were the camouflage type of
13 uniform, dark green with lighter green patches. A
14 pattern of light and dark green.
15 Q. Did he carry a gun?
16 A. Yes, they did have rifles.
17 Q. What kind of weapon was he carrying?
18 A. Well, he had an automatic rifle usually, and
19 on that occasion he had the automatic rifle. Whether
20 it was the one he always carried or another one, I
21 don't know, but it was an automatic rifle, and he was
22 standing at -- first at the gate.
23 Q. And, for instance, did you notice if he was
24 wearing some camouflage paint on his face or another
25 kind of --
1 A. No, his face was clean. He didn't have
2 anything painted on it.
3 Q. Witness Z, please take another look at the
4 blow-up of the map and please show us, as precisely as
5 possible, where Drago Josipovic stood when you noticed
6 him. Witness Z. Witness Z, on this photograph, the
7 one that is on the desk.
8 A. As we were here the APC was here, and that is
9 the entrance to the house (indicating). This is Hasim
10 Ahmic's house, and his son Fahran. It was here
12 Q. Witness Z, with an arrow, could you show us
13 the place where Drago Josipovic stood when you noticed
15 A. Here (indicating). There (marks).
16 Q. Thank you very much. The usher will now give
17 you another photograph. Mr. Usher, could you hand this
18 photograph over to the witness, please?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 246.
20 MR. TERRIER:
21 Q. Witness Z, what can we see on this
23 A. This photograph shows Drago Josipovic's
24 house. This is where the APCs turned around and where
25 we stood. This fence wasn't here at the time. You can
1 see Fahran's house. This is Drago Josipovic's house.
2 We went into the APC here, but the fence wasn't there
4 Q. Can we see on this photograph, the place
5 where Drago Josipovic stood when you went into the
7 A. No, you can't see it on the photograph. It
8 would be this way, but you can't see it on the
9 photograph (indicating).
10 Q. With an arrow, could you indicate the place
11 where you stepped into the APC?
12 A. Yes. It was here (marks).
13 Q. Thank you very much. I will now give you a
14 third and last photograph.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 247.
16 MR. TERRIER:
17 Q. Witness Z, what can we see on this picture?
18 A. That is the upper part of Ogrjev which is
19 where Aladin Karahodza worked. He was a night watchman
20 here. That's the entrance to the plant. I saw Aladin
21 Karahodza waving from this point, to save him, I
22 suppose. I saw him here (indicating), and that is the
23 Ogrjev plant belonging to Veternica.
24 Q. On the big photograph, could you show us
25 where this particular structure is located? On the map
1 behind you, please.
2 A. That's where it was (indicating). That is
3 the Ogrjev facility. That is the Veternica Ogrjev
4 facility, and it was here to my right.
5 Q. For the record, the witness is showing a
6 facility lying next to the road going from Vitez to
7 Busovaca. It is at about the same height as Drago
8 Josipovic's house but on the other side of the road.
9 Is that right witness, Z?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. TERRIER: Thank you. Your Honour, I have
12 no further questions for this witness. I would only
13 like to tender Exhibits numbers 243 to 247. Exhibits
14 243 and 244 should be tendered under seal.
15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Terrier, could you please
16 just have the witness indicate on the aerial photograph
17 where Drago Josipovic's house is? I don't think we
18 have it from that. You said it's opposite the Ogrjev
19 facility, but I'm not quite sure where it is.
20 MR. TERRIER: That's right, Your Honour, the
21 witness did not indicate that particular house.
22 Q. Witness Z, could you show us where Drago
23 Josipovic's house is on that particular photograph?
24 A. Yes. The house of Drago Josipovic is located
25 here, opposite the Ogrjev facility (indicating).
1 Q. Witness Z, using the green marker, for
2 example -- green, please. So using the green marker,
3 could you please put a cross on this particular house?
4 A. Yes. (Marks). That's it.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. I think it's
6 better for the Defence counsel if we take a break now,
7 30-minute break, so when we come back you can tell us
8 who is going to cross-examine the witness.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.20 a.m.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic?
12 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good day, Your Honours. The
13 witness will be questioned by Defence Counsel
14 Luka Susak, Petar Puliselic, Jadranka Slokovic-Glumac,
15 and Ranko Radovic.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Susak?
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:
18 Q. Witness Z, my name is Counsel Luka Susak, and
19 I'm going to ask you a few questions. Will you tell us
20 how many times you made statements before coming to the
21 Court here?
22 A. Twice.
23 Q. No. You made three statements. Let me
24 remind you. You gave a statement for the first time on
25 the 16th and 17th of November, 1997; the second was
1 given on the 2nd of February, 1998; the third on the
2 10th of May, 1998.
3 You stated that you were in the house of
4 Drago Josipovic, if I understood you correctly, when
5 you sought humanitarian aid for the hospital in
7 A. Yes. I went to his mother's house, which is
8 his house.
9 Q. You said that that was in 1992?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Will you tell us when that was,
13 A. It was, perhaps, June or July 1992.
14 Q. June or July 1992, you say. Since when were
15 you in the police, in the reserve police force?
16 A. Since 1991.
17 Q. The Military Police, since when were you a
19 A. I was in the Military Police when it
20 separated, when the Croatian Defence Council was
21 started up and the Croats, who were with us, they
22 separated. We went to join the Territorial Defence,
23 the Bosniaks.
24 Q. Let me remind you, this was on the 6th of
25 April, 1992, that is, what you said in your first
1 statement, at least.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How come that, as a policeman, you went from
4 house to house and, in concrete terms, to Drago
5 Josipovic's house to ask for humanitarian aid, because
6 it is not usual, customary, for the police to go
7 visiting houses?
8 A. Well, I was wearing a civilian uniform. I
9 was not in uniform. It was my free time. I went with
10 my mother to keep her company, so as not to let her go
12 Q. Let me remind you of the law on criminal
13 proceedings and the penal code, which was in force at
14 the time, whereby a military policeman or an ordinary
15 policeman is a person of authority, even when not
16 wearing a police uniform. All the more so -- just a
17 moment, please. All the more so that in the
18 surrounding villages and in the village itself, people
19 knew that you were a policeman. But never mind, I'm not
20 going to go into that matter anymore.
21 Was your father a member of the Territorial
22 Defence or was he in the BH army?
23 A. He was a member of the Territorial Defence.
24 Q. Did he have any weapons?
25 A. Yes, he did.
1 Q. What kind of weapon?
2 A. He had a PAP, a semi-automatic rifle.
3 Q. Was it okay? Did it function?
4 A. Yes. He was issued this when he went to
5 defend civilians up at the frontline towards the Serbs.
6 Q. Could you tell us who was in the Territorial
7 Defence headquarters in Ahmici?
8 A. In Ahmici, well, I belonged to the
9 Territorial Defence of Vitez. I don't know about
11 Q. I'm asking you about Ahmici.
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. You said that you went to Vlado Santic's
14 shed. How long did you stay there before the APCs
16 A. Well, from half past eight in the morning
17 until four or half past four in the afternoon.
18 Q. You said 1630 p.m.?
19 A. Yes, half past four, thereabouts.
20 Q. You were questioned by an investigator from
21 the Office of the Prosecutor on the 16th and 17th of
22 November, 1997?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. How come, on that occasion, you did not
25 mention Karahodza?
1 A. Aladin. I said that I gave two statements.
2 Q. I'm talking about this particular one.
3 A. Well, let me say to the Judges that I thought
4 his name was Aladin Sehaganovic. Let me explain,
5 please. I thought his name was Sehaganovic, that that
6 was his surname, because he was married to a
7 Sehaganovic. It was only later on that I learned that
8 his surname was Karahodza.
9 Q. Let me remind you that you did not mention
10 this second individual when you were first
11 interviewed. You never mentioned him. You didn't say
12 he had a different name. How do you explain this, that
13 you mentioned this second individual?
14 A. Well, I know I mentioned him.
15 Q. But you signed the statement, and there's no
16 mention of him made in the statement, nevertheless, in
17 front of the Bosnian police, who interrogated you one
18 year later or, more precisely, on the 2nd of February,
20 A. May I explain, please? We did not have
21 enough time when I was questioned for the second
22 time -- not the second time, the first time. Just a
23 moment, please. Let me explain. The first time I was
24 questioned, I had not arrived at that point. We were
25 interrupted, and then we continued later on. After a
1 certain amount of time had elapsed, we went on with the
2 second statement where I mention Aladin.
3 Q. You made your second statement, and it was a
4 statement of less than half a page in length. I have
5 the feeling that you were in a hurry here when the
6 Bosnian police questioned you. How long were you
7 questioned for by the Bosnian police? Who did you give
8 the statement to on the 2nd of February, 1992?
9 A. I gave the statement in Zenica.
10 Q. This statement is a little more than half a
11 page in length. How long did it take you to make that
13 A. About two or three hours.
14 Q. In view of the fact that it is over half a
15 page, it seems that it was related to the question of
16 Aladin Karahodza. However, you made your first
17 statement, and it was a six-page statement, in my
18 translation, which means that it was an exhaustive
19 statement. However, you failed to mention the
21 A. It wasn't an exhaustive statement.
22 Q. But you were questioned on the 16th and 17th
23 of November?
24 A. Perhaps we didn't complete it and we
25 continued later on.
1 Q. So this took two days and this was a
2 comprehensive statement. How come you did not remember
3 that particular incident?
4 A. Well, as I said, every village could write
5 volumes and volumes about the events they experienced
6 and everything that happened. You can't remember
7 everything immediately, because there were a lot of
8 events. A lot of things happened.
9 Q. You said that when you went up onto the road
10 when the APCs arrived that you put on women's clothing?
11 A. Yes. In front of the shed of Vlado Santic, I
12 put on a woman's skirt and a scarf and went across to
13 the APC to stop anybody from recognising me, because I
14 was the only military-abled man there. I was the only
15 man among all the women there.
16 Q. You said that a female gave you these clothes
17 to put on, if I heard you correctly?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Who was that?
20 A. It was Fikreta. "Fikra" is what we called
21 her, Imsirevic. She is Galib Imsirevic's mother.
22 Q. Let me remind you that you gave a statement
23 in Zenica, but you told the investigator that your
24 mother had given you the clothing to wear?
25 A. No, not my mother. This was a
2 Q. Then the investigator recorded this in an
3 incorrect manner, and he did so over the two days that
4 you gave your statement. When you entered the APC, who
5 entered it first?
6 A. I don't remember who went in to the carrier
7 first. There were eight of us in the APC. I think
8 that I went in fifth or sixth. I can't quite remember,
9 and you can't ask me to remember the exact line and who
10 went first and who went last. I don't recall this
11 exactly. I didn't pay attention to who went into the
12 APC first, because at that particular moment, I saw
13 Aladin, and my attention was diverted towards Aladin,
14 so that I failed to see who went into the APC first.
15 Q. How did you see Aladin Karahodza?
16 A. Well, I saw him standing over there in front
17 of the little house by the Ogrjev facility, in front of
18 the Ogrjev building. He was waving to us to help us, I
19 suppose, because he couldn't go anywhere.
20 Q. So he was in front of the little building?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How come you said that Aladin told you that
23 Drago Josipovic locked him up in the night watchman's
24 house? Tell me.
25 A. Yes. I did give that statement.
1 Q. But today you say he was standing in front of
2 the building, whereas, at the time, you said that he
3 was locked in and that Drago Josipovic had locked him
4 in the caretaker's building?
5 A. When he saw us and when the APC arrived and
6 he saw us, there was, sort of, a glass partition, glass
7 door, and he broke down the glass door.
8 Q. Did you say that he had broken down the glass
10 A. No, I didn't.
11 Q. But today you said that he was standing in
12 front of the building. This means that he broke down
13 the glass and was able to get out. But beforehand, you
14 said that he was locked up there?
15 A. Yes, on the day after, on the 17th.
16 Q. You said that you were in shock?
17 A. I was in the APC, and when I entered the APC,
18 and that was somewhere near Travnik, perhaps it was by
19 Nova Bila or Dolac, I went into shock. I had some
20 convulsions and went into shock. Whether from the fear
21 or something else, I don't know.
22 Q. When did you regain consciousness?
23 A. I woke up in the hospital room, and I had a
24 drip in my arm.
25 Q. When was that?
1 A. It was about 10 to 15 minutes after being
2 carried out of the APC into the hospital room. The
3 drip woke me up.
4 Q. How long were you in hospital?
5 A. I just spent the night in the hospital until
6 the 17th, in the morning.
7 Q. Where did you go from there?
8 A. I went to a friend of mine's who was in
9 Travnik where my wife and mother had spent the night.
10 Q. When you went home, did you have a rest or
11 did you go to the battlefront?
12 A. I spent 19 days in Travnik.
13 Q. But what about the 17th when you came to that
14 house, what did you do when you came to the house?
15 A. Well, nothing. You know, it was a general
16 state of shock, because I heard that people had been
17 killed, and I spent 19 days in Travnik. I was not in
18 the army at the time. I was nowhere. On the
19 nineteenth day, I went to Zenica. I was transported
20 with the wounded, the women and children.
21 Q. But if you were in shock on the 16th, what
22 did you do on the 17th? Did you have a rest?
23 A. Yes. I rested in the house of my friend.
24 Q. Did you spend the whole day in the house?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Did you leave the house on the 17th at any
3 A. Yes, I did. I went out into the fresh air
4 with my wife for a bit to have a rest from everything,
5 because there was still a great deal of fear in my
6 head, but we didn't move around too much because the
7 Croatian Defence Council was in Travnik as well. So we
8 weren't able to move around Travnik much.
9 Q. Did you met anybody in Travnik on that
10 particular day?
11 A. Just (redacted)and those of us who had
12 escaped and the wounded. I went to visit them in
13 hospital the next day. I walked around a bit with my
14 wife and then my mother came later on.
15 Q. Did you, on that particular day, meet any of
16 the members of the BH army?
17 A. Yes. I did see some of them.
18 Q. Who?
19 A. Well, she was not a member of the army
20 proper. It was a female,(redacted), and she was
21 wounded in the leg. She was in the hospital, as well
22 as Munir Ahmic and Ibrahim Karic, and Fahrudin Ahmic
23 was also there. They were lying down in hospital.
24 They were wounded.
25 Q. Those are all the individuals who you met?
1 A. Yes. They were all the people from Ahmici
2 who were in the hospital.
3 Q. Did any of them come to your house on that
5 A. At my house, no.
6 Q. You said that in Travnik, Karahodza told you
7 of the events that had taken place. When did he tell
8 you of these events, when you just told us that you
9 didn't see him?
10 A. I didn't say I didn't see him. You didn't
11 ask me.
12 Q. I asked you to enumerate the individuals, the
13 male individuals, that came to your house.
14 A. I did not meet him at the house or in town.
15 We met in front of the hospital, in front of the
16 Travnik Hospital, when I was visiting Munir and
17 Fahrudin and (redacted) the little Karic boy. Then I
18 saw him going out. I did not know that he was out
19 until the 17th. I did not know that the UNPROFOR
20 soldier had led him up to the APC and that he was taken
21 to Travnik with me. I didn't know until I saw him on
22 the 17th in the morning, sometime around 11.00 a.m.,
24 Q. You seem to remember things when I tell you
25 of the incidents, and then you seem to recall the
1 events, but previously, you did not mention Karahodza.
2 You said --
3 MR. TERRIER: Objection, Your Honour. I
4 object. I don't like the manner in which Mr. Susak is
5 interrogating the witness. I object to this latest
6 question. I do not agree.
7 Mr. Susak asks of the witness which members
8 of the army he met in Travnik. Witness Z does not
9 mention a particular name that Mr. Susak is waiting
10 for, and because the witness does not mention this
11 particular name, he says that the witness is not
12 coherent with himself. But I think Mr. Susak is laying
13 a trap for the witness, and I don't think that's a
14 proper way to go about cross-examining a witness.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. The objection is
16 sustained. I wonder whether Counsel Susak would be so
17 kind as to put his questions in a different way and, in
18 any case, to move on to other questions.
19 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, it is difficult
20 for me to accept this objection, because in the
21 statement made on the 10th of May, '98, it says that on
22 the 17th of April, Karahodza told this witness about
23 this event. But then when I asked him, previously,
24 which persons these were, he never mentioned Aladin
25 Karahodza. Then he remembered, subsequently, so that
1 is why I put this question to him because he says so in
2 the statement. It's not that I made it up. Thank you.
3 Q. You said that you saw Drago Josipovic with
4 four other soldiers; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said that he wore a uniform and that he
7 had weapons?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What does that mean, that he had a uniform?
10 Did he have a cap?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you explain what he looked like, what
13 the characteristics of his appearance were?
14 A. I think that he was about 165 to 170
15 centimetres tall. He had a cap on his head, a
16 multi-coloured cap, a chubby face with a big
17 moustache. I didn't see him further down. I only saw
18 him down to his waist. He had a camouflage uniform
19 with a pattern of light and dark green.
20 Q. He stood there?
21 A. Yes. He stood there at the entrance into
22 Hasim Ahmic's and Fahrudin's yard. He was at the
23 fence, at the very entrance.
24 Q. Did you know that Hasim Ahmic, at that time,
25 was coming to collect his clothes in his home?
1 A. My mother saw Hasim Ahmic.
2 Q. No, no, not your mother. What did you see?
3 Did you see him?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5 Q. You said that he stood there, but in Zenica,
6 in the statement you gave on February 2, 1998, you said
7 that he walked up and that he was 15 metres away.
8 Today you said 20 metres away, but in the first
9 statement in '97, you said that he was 30 metres away.
10 A. Well, it's not that much of a difference. I
11 mean, 15, 20 to 30 metres, it's not, you know --
12 Q. Well, this is a quantitative difference, I
13 mean, 30 metres compared to 15 metres, isn't it?
14 A. Obviously, I could see him.
15 Q. Whose houses are next to Drago Josipovic's
17 A. Whose houses?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Next to Drago Josipovic, there is his
20 mother's house, Luca's house. His mother's name is
21 Luca. Then Hasim Ahmic's house, Fahran Ahmic's house.
22 On the left-hand side, left of his house when we look
23 at it from up here, is his cousin's house, Jozo's
24 house, Vlado Santic's house, and on the other side, a
25 bit further up, is Sukrita's house. There is Muzafer's
1 (phoen) house, also, his brother-in-law's house. All
2 of these are, sort of, together.
3 Q. Did you do your military service in the
4 former JNA?
5 A. Yes. In 1989, I did my military service in
6 the former army.
7 Q. Did Drago Josipovic and Slavica come to see
8 you off when you went to the army?
9 A. No.
10 Q. No? Not that they called on you, but did
11 they come to see you off then?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did Karahodza tell you whether there was
14 someone else with him in Ogrjev, within the compound?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you know whether anyone was with him?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did he tell you about someone else being a
19 watchman there and then?
20 A. I think that Jukic from Nadioci was there. I
21 don't know what his first name is. I think that he was
22 also a watchman with him.
23 Q. You said you think. Don't tell me what you
24 think. Tell me what you know.
25 A. Yes. Jukic was there.
1 Q. How do you know that Jukic was there?
2 A. Well, I know him. I know that he worked in
3 Ogrjev first, at Poculica, and then he was transferred
4 to here, to work with Aladin. One night, it was
5 Aladin, and one night, it was this other man, Jukic,
6 whose shift it was.
7 Q. That day, was anybody else on duty, apart
8 from Karahodza? Did Karahodza tell you anything?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I'm asking you whether he told you anything?
11 A. No.
12 Q. If you were in a state of shock when you
13 watched this, was your eyesight dimmed?
14 A. I don't understand your question. When I
15 watched what?
16 Q. You said that you were in shock.
17 A. Yes, I was in shock when I walked into the
18 APC, when the APC came to Nova Bila, Dolac,
19 approximately, I think. I don't know. I was somewhere
20 around Nova Bila and Dolac because I know that we
21 quickly reached Travnik, the hospital. My wife and my
22 mother told me about this, too.
23 Q. When you were in shock; right?
24 A. Well, I'll tell you, sometime between Nova
25 Bila and Dolac, I was in a state of shock.
1 Q. How did you feel when you were waiting for
2 the APC, because in the first statement you said that
3 you were already in a state of shock?
4 A. Well, it is only normal. Everybody was
5 afraid. I was afraid. Everybody was afraid because we
6 were awaiting death, because they had rifles and we
8 Q. Who are you referring to when you say "they
9 had rifles"?
10 A. I'm referring to the HVO, because they are
11 the only ones who had rifles in those days.
12 Q. Why?
13 A. Well, because I was afraid for my mother, my
14 wife. If I were alone, I could have had an
15 opportunity. I mean, my own life didn't matter to me.
16 Q. Could you please answer the following
17 question: You said in your first statement that you
18 were in a state of shock. When did you go into a state
19 of shock?
20 A. Well, I got into a state of shock.
21 Q. How did you feel when you were waiting for
22 the APCs to come?
23 A. Fear prevailed, of course, naturally. It's a
24 kind of shock, fear. I think fear is a kind of shock.
25 You feel lost, that you can't see anything in front of
1 your eyes, that your eyesight is dimmed when you're
3 Q. You also said that Aladin Karahodza told you
5 A. Aladin?
6 Q. Yes, Aladin. What did he tell you, that
7 Drago Josipovic allegedly told him something or
8 threatened him or what? I'll remind you --
9 A. You don't have to remind me.
10 Q. I have to remind you. You said what, that he
11 would sweeten things?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And, you know --
14 A. Sweeten and become colder, it's more or less
15 the same thing.
16 MR. TERRIER: The transcript. Your Honour,
17 there's no transcript on our screen, and it has been
18 that way for the last few minutes. I think there's a
20 JUDGE CASSESE: You're right. I wonder
21 whether Counsel Susak would be so kind as to wait a few
22 seconds before asking his next question so we can have
23 the translation, because it is too quick and probably
24 the interpreters cannot cope with so many quick
25 questions and answers. I see the transcript is now
1 coming back. Counsel Susak, please.
2 MR. SUSAK:
3 Q. However, you made a different statement to
4 the investigator, and that is on 10th of May this year,
5 and both are under quotation marks, and there you said
6 that Drago said to Aladin, "Sugar comes at the end."
7 That is quite different. What do you say to that?
8 A. Sugar comes at the end? I don't know. I
9 said he would sweeten things with him or get colder. I
10 mean, doesn't it mean the same thing? That's the way
11 it is; isn't it? Because you always have to sweeten
12 your coffee, right? If you like sweet coffee.
13 Q. Well, you're very clever, aren't you? Like
14 you were with the investigator in Zenica. You know
15 what you said under quotation marks, both one and the
17 A. What I said I'm saying now too. I could
18 write a book on all the things that we lived through
19 and how we went through all of this. Everything that I
20 said is true. A word or two that are --
21 Q. Was there any glass in the warehouse?
22 A. In Ogrjev you mean?
23 Q. Yes. How come Aladin didn't previously break
24 the glass on the windows?
25 A. I don't know. I imagine he saw this army,
1 these soldiers, and he didn't dare go out because they
2 were the only ones who walked, not us.
3 Q. I'm not asking you what you think but what
4 did he tell you?
5 A. I told you what he told me, that Drago
6 Josipovic, in the morning, around 2.00 a.m. --
7 Q. You don't have to repeat all of that. Just
8 did he tell you that there were glass windows or did
9 you see glass windows?
10 A. I saw this glass on the lower side, but I
11 didn't see a door. I only saw him in front of the
12 door, standing in front of the door.
13 Q. And in other places? Are there any windows
14 on this particular facility?
15 A. Yes, on the lower side, and there is a door,
16 and he was there at the door.
17 Q. From the aerial photograph you could see that
18 there are several windows and on the ground floor too.
19 A. Yes, but he didn't dare go out.
20 Q. You said today that he waved with his hand.
21 Could you explain these circumstances, how Aladin
23 A. He was standing and waving like this.
24 Q. Did he put his hand out of the window?
25 A. No. He was standing in front of the door, in
1 front of this little house, when he saw us.
2 Q. So as far as I could understand, the
3 warehouse wasn't closed or locked?
4 A. Well, let me tell you --
5 MR. SUSAK: All right. No further
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Puliselic:
10 Q. Witness Z, my name is Petar Puliselic. I'm
11 an attorney, Defence counsel, and I would like to put a
12 few questions to you.
13 At the beginning of your statement today, you
14 spoke of events from the 20th of October, 1992. In
15 your opinion, what was it that led to this conflict?
16 Could you tell us that?
17 A. On the 19th of October, orders were received
18 to open a checkpoint to prevent the forces from going
19 to Novi Travnik. Naturally, that is exactly what we
20 did. We established this checkpoint on the 19th, in
21 the evening -- it was dusk rather -- in order to
22 prevent a large concentration of the Croatian Defence
23 Council. And they started from Poculica, Kiseljak,
24 Busovaca towards Novi Travnik. And since the fighting
25 had already broken out in Novi Travnik --
1 Q. You said that you received orders. Could you
2 tell us more accurately who did you receive these
3 orders from to set up this roadblock, this checkpoint?
4 A. From the headquarters of the Territorial
5 Defence, because we belonged to the headquarters of the
6 Territorial Defence.
7 Q. Do you know that there were conflicts in
8 Jajce, and that the HVO was defending Jajce from the
9 Serbs and that Jajce was about to fall? Do you know
10 anything about that?
11 A. Well, there was fighting going on in Jajce,
12 but allegedly we also knew that the HVO had set out on
13 Novi Travnik rather than Jajce.
14 Q. Does one reach Jajce through Novi Travnik?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What do you mean no? How can you reach
17 Jajce? What is the closest way from Busovaca to
19 A. Travnik Common.
20 Q. Do you know that Jajce fell?
21 A. Only afterwards. Since I was in the village
22 there in Ahmici, only when we started walking and when
23 I reported to the headquarters of Territorial Defence
24 in Stari Vitez, that is when I found out about the fall
25 of Jajce.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who else was there apart from you?
8 Q. Were all of them in uniform, and did they all
9 have weapons? What kind of weapons did they have?
10 A. Yes. Since we belonged to the Territorial
11 Defence headquarters, to the Military Police, we were
12 at this checkpoint. I happened to be at home --
13 Q. What kind of uniforms did you have?
14 A. Camouflage uniforms.
15 Q. Camouflage uniforms?
16 A. Yes, camouflage uniforms.
17 Can I just explain this? Not all of us had
18 camouflage uniforms. We would leave them there. We
19 would wear civilian clothes when we went to work, to
20 the headquarters of Territorial Defence, and then when
21 we would go home we would take off these uniforms
22 because we didn't have too many of them.
23 Q. How many people were there around the
24 roadblock? I'm not saying at the roadblock itself, but
25 in the vicinity. Were there any trenches?
1 A. There was a dugout improvised, without a
2 roof. I don't know exactly how many people were there,
3 because I was there until 3.00 and then I went home.
4 Q. There was shooting, you said. How long did
5 this shooting last approximately? You said that it
6 started when, early in the morning?
7 A. Yes. In the morning I woke up around 4.30,
8 because I went towards the mosque of Hadzija Ahmic. I
9 went to that part of the village, and I managed to get
10 to Nedzib Ahmic's house, then a shell was fired from
11 the direction of Zume, and it hit the top of the
12 minaret, and that is when shooting broke out.
13 Q. Can you tell me how long all of this lasted,
14 this shooting?
15 A. Well, then the shooting went on for a short
16 while and then it subsided. Ten, eleven -- I don't
17 know. Perhaps until 12.00 all of this went on, this
18 very strong shooting. They were shooting from all the
19 weapons they had.
20 Q. All right. But here the roadblock also and
21 around it, did they shoot there too?
22 A. No, no one was at the roadblock any longer,
23 because I was there until 3:00 and they had withdrawn
24 in the morning when they heard this, because there was
25 a fog that morning, and they managed to pull out
1 towards this part of the village called Krcevine, up
2 there. So they left this roadblock.
3 Q. And what did they set up there, a frontline
4 or something?
5 A. Well, naturally. When someone is shooting at
6 you, you have to defend yourself.
7 Q. All right. So there was shooting both ways;
9 A. Well, no. I don't know. Perhaps three or
10 four bullets were fired only from the place where I
12 Q. In that conflict, did Croats from Ahmici take
13 part in that conflict?
14 A. Croats from Ahmici? I didn't see any of them
15 then. I didn't see any of them that day.
16 Q. Did Croats from Ahmici ask the Muslim
17 population to come back to Ahmici?
18 A. I don't know anything about that really.
19 Q. The population came back, you know that;
20 don't you?
21 A. Well, yes. Only eight days later I went back
22 to the village, to my own house, to see what was going
23 on with my house, because in the lower part there
24 weren't any civilians. Only up there in Zume. You
25 know, those were the only civilians that were there,
1 but not down there.
2 Q. But everything was all right with your house;
3 wasn't it?
4 A. Well, it was drilled with bullets. If my
5 father was not there, it would have burned down,
6 because he spent the night there and there were tracer
7 bullets that were fired at the house. He was there all
8 day with neighbours and with my mother, and he was
9 crawling on his hands and knees, and he was collecting
10 bullets and --
11 Q. You mentioned Dragan Papic too, and you said
12 that you saw him once with a sniper up there by the
13 school, if I remember correctly.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And also toward the Kupreskic houses, that's
16 what you said?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you see what kind of a sniper this was,
19 what kind of a weapon this was? Was it for hunting,
20 was it a military sniper? What kind of sniper was it?
21 A. It was a military sniper. A military sniper
22 with a sight, an optical sight.
23 Q. How come you know?
24 A. How could I not know. In the former army we
25 saw different weapons.
1 Q. What is the difference between a military
2 sniper and a hunting sniper?
3 A. Their functions are the same, but the other
4 one is bigger and heavier. The hunting one is lighter,
5 and its range is shorter than that of a military one.
6 Q. All right. But according to form when you
7 see it?
8 A. The military sniper is more massive than the
9 hunting one.
10 Q. You said he wore a black uniform and that it
11 was too short for him, too small or something?
12 A. Yes. The sleeves were too short, yes, yes.
13 Q. Did this uniform have some insignia on it?
14 What did it look like?
15 A. He had a cap with a U on it. He had this cap
16 on the epaulet, on his shoulder, and he didn't have any
17 insignia but the cap had a U on it.
18 Q. You did not mention the cap until now.
19 During the examination by the Prosecutor, on previous
20 occasions you didn't mention it?
21 A. Well, I imagine I admitted it, because he was
22 in that uniform non-stop. From the first conflict to
23 the second conflict he was in that black uniform
24 non-stop, and we, the Bosniaks, know what a black
25 uniform means.
1 Q. What does it mean?
2 A. It's an Ustashe uniform. During the former
3 war, our parents and grandparents remembered what it
5 Q. Do Ustashes wear only that kind of uniform?
6 A. Who was a Ustashe wore that kind of uniform.
7 Q. All Ustashe wore such uniforms?
8 A. Well, yes, Darko Kraljevic and his group,
9 they wore those uniforms in Vitez. Not all of them.
10 The HOS also wore that uniform.
11 Q. I wanted to say that the Ustashe army did not
12 have such uniforms.
13 A. No. Some had camouflage uniforms, others
14 this black uniforms.
15 Q. And I'm talking about Ustashe army in the
16 Second World War.
17 A. Oh, that I don't know.
18 Q. You spoke about shooting on the 16th of
19 April, how it started, and I think you said that you
20 were on duty.
21 A. Yes. I was protecting my house in the night
22 during the 15th and the 16th. It wasn't a sort of
23 watch, it was just looking out for the safety of our
24 houses. I went to sleep at 2.00, but whether Ekrem
25 Imsirevic waited until morning, I don't know. I went
1 to sleep at 2.00 a.m.
2 Q. Did you take off your uniform when you went
3 to bed?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5 Q. Why not?
6 A. Well, I don't know. The situation was very
7 tense, you understand me. As I said, up until the 15th
8 there was a great deal of tension and silence. There
9 will never be silence like that again. It was deadly
10 silence. You just couldn't -- it was so tense that you
11 found it very difficult.
12 Q. And then you took your top off?
13 A. No, I just took my jacket off.
14 Q. Afterwards when you got up?
15 A. Yes. On the 16th, when I saw that the
16 soldiers were in my yard and were running across it, I
17 just said to my mother, "Well, they're already in our
19 Q. And then you took off this uniform?
20 A. Yes. I threw it away into the cupboard, and
21 I placed the rifle in the cupboard, and my vest as
23 Q. In the statement to the investigators of the
24 10th of March, 1998, you state that from your house you
25 heard the sound of anti-aircraft weapons from the
1 vicinity of Ivo and Mario Papic.
2 A. From the forest I said.
3 Q. You said that you heard it, and now you say
4 that you saw that there was shooting from the PAT, the
5 automatic rifle?
6 A. Yes, I saw tracer bullets.
7 Q. Where did you see those tracer bullets? Did
8 you see them up in the air or where?
9 A. No. I saw them ricocheting from the houses,
10 the walls of the houses. And from Rovna I saw them
11 targeting the Ahmici houses. Along the asphalt road,
12 the ammunition was riveted from the ground and became
13 lodged in the surrounding walls.
14 Q. But how did you conclude that this ammunition
15 was coming from the anti-aircraft guns?
16 A. Well, I said that I'd already been in the
17 army and been at the frontline towards the Serbs in
18 Visoko, and that we had encountered weapons of this
19 kind. We knew how the weapons fired.
20 Q. But you did not see the PAT, the
21 semi-automatic rifle?
22 A. No, I didn't see the PAT, but I saw it
23 shooting. It is an anti-aircraft gun.
24 Q. So you saw these shells in the air; is that
1 A. No. From the direction of the wood, going
2 down towards the lower part of the mosque, the lower
3 part of Ahmici.
4 Q. Did you see the PAT, the anti-aircraft gun?
5 A. No, but I saw the ammunition firing from the
6 wood, and these tracer bullets.
7 Q. You said in your statement to the
8 investigator that it was a PAT -- a 40-millimetre PAT
9 anti-aircraft gun.
10 A. It was approximately 40 millimetres, yes.
11 Q. Is that quite certain? Are you sure that it
12 was that type of weapon?
13 A. As I say, we had already encountered guns of
14 this kind.
15 Q. I know that you'd already encountered them,
16 but how can you determine this on the basis of the
17 tracer bullets?
18 A. Well, I said that it was -- that I thought it
19 was a 40-millimetre anti-aircraft gun know as PAT.
20 Q. Well, that's what I wanted to hear, because
21 you say you saw these anti-aircraft guns, whereas to
22 the investigator you said you had just heard them.
23 You mention, furthermore, the wood, a wood.
24 You said that it was -- it belonged to Dragan and Ivo
25 Papic. Do you know who the owner of the wood is and
1 whether Dragan Papic is the owner of any part of the
3 A. No, his father is the owner.
4 Q. His father then?
5 A. It is their property. It did not belong to
6 me, it wasn't mine. They were there and it was
8 Q. Do you know who the owners of the wood are?
9 A. I know that it belonged to Dragan Papic and
10 his father, and Marija, that they had part of the wood
12 Q. Do you know that the largest part of the wood
13 belonged to Ante Papic?
14 A. No, I did not know that.
15 Q. Did you know that the other part of the
16 forest belonged to Gavro Vidovic?
17 A. Well, they used the wood as if it were their
18 own. They walked around it, they stayed there, and at
19 the first instance the army was there.
20 Q. Do you know that a large portion of the wood
21 belonged to Simo Vidovic?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. Do you know that a very small part of the
24 wood, in fact, belonged to Ivo and Marija Papic?
25 A. Well, I know that they did have a wood
1 there. I said it was theirs.
2 Q. You said that you were on good terms, you and
3 your family, with the Papic family, Ivo and Dragan
4 Papic's family, and you, I think, said that you visited
5 each other.
6 A. Yes, we did visit each other. That's true.
7 Q. You even knew who lived in the house, in
8 which part of the house, where the individual members
9 of the family slept. How many members did the Papic
10 family have?
11 A. Well, I didn't know where they slept, but I
12 did go into their property. I did not go into their
13 bedrooms, of course.
14 Q. Well, you said that to the investigator, you
15 knew exactly who was on the ground floor level and who
16 was on the first floor.
17 A. When Dragan Papic married, he lived on the
18 first floor of the house with his wife, and we went
19 there for a house warming party.
20 Q. Do you know when he married? When did Dragan
21 Papic marry?
22 A. Well, it was in 1991, I think. 1990 or '91.
23 I don't quite remember. Between 1990 and 1991.
24 Q. But you told the investigator that in the
25 upper part of the house Ivo Papic and his wife lived,
1 and that is why I'm asking of these details?
2 A. Well, they lived in the same house.
3 Q. But you said that they were on the first
4 floor. Now you say that Dragan lived on the first
5 floor, but never mind.
6 Can you tell us, please -- you, of course,
7 know where the Lasva River lies. Can you tell us how
8 far the river is from the road, the main road passing
9 through Ahmici? Can you show us on the map? Would you
10 indicate to the Court, using a pointer, where the Lasva
11 River lies? Yes, it's course. Would you show the
12 course of the river to the end? On the other side as
14 A. This way. It flows this way (indicating).
15 This is the bridge for Donja Rovna, that bridge
17 Q. You indicated the bridge.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What is it called? What is the bridge
21 A. It is the bridge for Donja Rovna, lower
23 Q. Is it called Radak's bridge?
24 A. Perhaps, I don't know.
25 Q. So the road led across the bridge towards
1 lower Rovna.
2 Did a road exist before the war? Did another
3 road exist? As far as I can see, there was another
4 road along the Lasva River. Did the road exist before
5 the war?
6 A. You mean along the Lasva River?
7 Q. Were they fields?
8 A. No, it was the old railway line.
9 Q. No, across the bridge. The other side of the
10 bridge when you cross the Lasva River. There is a
11 white line on the map. When you cross over the bridge
12 to the other side.
13 A. Here, and it reads towards Rovna.
14 Q. Yes, but along the river there is a parallel
15 white line.
16 A. That's a footpath. Not a road, a footpath.
17 I passed there once because it was a footpath, as I
18 say. Otherwise we went to the Lasva River to bathe.
19 But I didn't cross over very often, I just crossed over
20 once, and I took this footpath and went towards Rasko
22 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have
23 no further questions. Counsel Slokovic-Glumac.
24 Counsel Susak, you --
25 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, in the translation
1 I found that the last statement was given by the
2 witness on the 10th of May, 1998. He made the
3 statement on the 10th of March, 1998. There was an
4 error there.
5 One other point, Mr. President. I would like
6 to propose that the statements given by this witness on
7 the 16th and 17th of November, 1997, as well as on the
8 2nd of February, 1998, and the statement of the 3rd of
9 March, 1999 (sic) be tendered into evidence, because
10 they are all different and they differ in relation to
11 what the witness said today, and this is vital
12 evidence, I feel.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether the
14 Prosecution is against?
15 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, as far as these
16 three statements are concerned, there is no problem.
17 I'm sure that the Judges will be able to make up their
18 mind on the pretended -- the alleged differences that
19 are to be found in these statements.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So they are
21 admitted into evidence. Thank you.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The statements will be
23 marked D3/5, D4/5 and D5/5.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
25 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
1 Q. Thank you. Good day to you.
2 I'm going to ask you something with regard to
3 the barricade -- or it was not, in fact, a barricade
4 but a checkpoint, let us say, at the entrance to
5 Ahmici. You mentioned it, that it was set up after the
6 return from Upper Ahmici or Vrhovine, and that it was
7 set up at the entrance to Ahmici. You spoke about the
8 checkpoint when you mentioned the three names.
9 A. Yes. That checkpoint was set up on the day
10 after in October when the conflict had already broken
11 out, on the first day, on the 20th of October. On the
12 21st of October the checkpoint was set up. We had
13 withdrawn to the upper part of Ahmici, and the
14 checkpoint was there from the 21st until we returned.
15 I can give you an example.
16 Q. Just one moment. I'm first going to refer to
17 what you said in your statement, and then we'll see
18 later on.
19 So you came to the checkpoint when you
20 returned to Ahmici; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. I went from -- I left my house for the
22 first day after eight days.
23 Q. So you left on the 20th of October to Upper
24 Ahmici. You had escaped there and you returned when?
25 A. On the 28th. And then I went to my house.
1 Q. You were appointed to that checkpoint to take
2 up your duties there. Who gave you orders to go to the
4 A. Well, as the first conflict had already
5 broken out, we had been given instructions to protect
6 the civilians.
7 Q. Who told you to man the checkpoint? At what
8 level was an agreement reached that you should guard
9 the checkpoint together with the Croats?
10 A. Probably from the Territorial Defence
11 headquarters in Vitez, as I was in the Military Police
12 already, and as I was already working on the
14 Q. That means that from the Territorial Defence
15 headquarters in Vitez, an order was issued that,
16 together with the Croats, you should man the
17 checkpoint, is that correct, at the entrance to the
19 A. Yes, but I was wearing civilian clothing.
20 I was not wearing a uniform.
21 Q. I'm not asking what you were wearing, I just
22 want to clarify how you came to man the checkpoint.
23 Very well then. At the checkpoint, there was
24 you and there were the Croats; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was the checkpoint a lasting checkpoint?
2 That is to say, how long was it maintained?
3 A. Well, for about 10 to 12 days, not longer
4 than that. I did not see the checkpoint after that.
5 Q. So that means that the checkpoint existed for
6 about 10 days, and it was a combined checkpoint, a
7 joint checkpoint?
8 A. Well, it was a joint checkpoint for eight
9 days, and after eight -- they were alone for the first
10 eight days, up to the eighth day.
11 Q. Now, I'm asking you something else. I am
12 talking about the fact that you said that a decision
13 had been made to man the checkpoint with combined
14 forces, and you said that this decision was made at a
15 higher level. You don't know exactly at what level,
16 but that it was decided to set up a checkpoint at the
17 entrance to Ahmici; is that correct? Therefore, I'm
18 now asking you after that time, when you, together with
19 the Croats, manned the checkpoint, how long did that
21 A. It lasted two or three days, not longer. Two
22 or three days.
23 Q. And was the checkpoint disbanded afterwards?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Completely?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So neither the Croats nor the Bosnians manned
3 the checkpoint at the entrance to Ahmici; is that
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. At the checkpoint, the checkpoint was
7 envisaged to be manned jointly by the Croats and
8 Bosnians. Was there any mention of having two by two,
9 or what was the arrangement?
10 A. No. I was assigned to the checkpoint myself,
11 alone. I was the only individual there. I was there
12 for about two hours.
13 Q. So you were the only person to return down
14 there at the time?
15 A. I did not return, I went to see my house.
16 That is when everything started, the gradual return.
17 Q. But in this gradual return, it was decided to
18 man the checkpoint together at the entrance to the
19 village; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Tell us, please, whether you had a rifle at
22 that time with you?
23 A. When I was at the checkpoint, no. I was just
24 wearing civilian clothes and had my hands in my
25 pockets, so to speak.
1 Q. So the checkpoint was an improvised
2 checkpoint. There were no mines or other devices. It
3 was not an actual barricade, was it?
4 A. Well, no.
5 Q. Was there a physical boundary or were there
6 only people there?
7 A. Well, for the first eight days, there was a
8 physical obstacle, a barrier, but they wouldn't let any
9 Muslims there.
10 Q. How do you know they didn't give any Muslims
11 a chance?
12 A. Well, my uncle lives in Vitez, and he came to
13 see what was happening to us, and he went towards the
14 upper village, and Dragan Papic stopped him and did not
15 allow him to pass into the upper village to see what
16 had happened to us, whether we were alive or not. He
17 can confirm this any time.
18 Q. At that time, where were you, in Vrhovine or
19 in Upper Ahmici?
20 A. I was in Upper Ahmici.
21 Q. Where was the majority of the population who
22 had escaped?
23 A. Some of them were at Vrhovine and the rest
24 were in the village.
25 Q. Tell me, please, whether, in the first
1 conflict, some Croatian property -- was Croatian
2 property burnt?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You didn't see that any Croatian sheds had
5 been set fire to?
6 A. No, I didn't see that. All I know is that 13
7 of our sheds and 5 houses were burnt. My shed was
8 burnt; my car was burnt. They killed two cows. When
9 my mother let the cows go off on their own, the cows
10 were killed.
11 Q. Let me ask you something more about the
12 checkpoint and the first conflict. Do you recall
13 whether the first people manning the checkpoint
14 happened to stop a vehicle belonging to the Croatian
15 Regional Police?
16 A. Regional police, you mean?
17 Q. Yes, the civilian police.
18 A. The civilian police, yes, they did, because
19 there was an accident, and one of my relatives,
20 Sulejman Ahmic, was doing a shift and somebody else. I
21 don't know his name. There was an accident at the
22 entrance to Nadioci. There was a car accident and
23 somebody was killed. They took people on the spot.
24 They went there to investigate, and they had no
25 problems in passing when they came back.
1 Q. So the car was stopped. It was the car
2 belonging to the civilian police?
3 A. It was not stopped. They just asked what had
5 Q. Tell me, the people who were stopped, were
6 there weapons taken from them?
7 A. No. As far as I know, nobody did that while
8 I was there.
9 Q. While you were there, yes. Was the vehicle
11 A. No.
12 Q. You said that you left at about 3.00 a.m. in
13 the morning. Do you know whether anybody else's car
14 was confiscated and weapons confiscated?
15 A. No. While I was there, it didn't happen.
16 Q. Where was Sulejman Ahmic, the one that you
17 mentioned? Where was he, at the barricade?
18 A. No. He was not at the barricade. He worked
19 in the civilian police force, because the civilian
20 police force was still functioning, and the Bosnians
21 and Serbs and Croats were together. They were a
22 combined civilian police force. That's as far as the
23 civilian police is concerned; whereas, the Military
24 Police, that was already separate. The separation had
25 already started.
1 Q. Who was the commander at the barricade?
2 A. Well, there was no commander there.
3 Q. There was no commander, you say?
4 A. No.
5 Q. For example, if you were given the order to
6 set up a barricade, who would then decide what was to
7 happen at the barricade?
8 A. Well, we were members of the Military Police
9 already, and we had worked together at barricades, and
10 they assigned us to that particular barricade from the
11 headquarters of the Territorial Defence in Vitez.
12 Q. Who gave you this order?
13 A. I think it was issued by telephone. I don't
14 know, but I was there -- as I say, I was on my way
15 home, and they told us to set up a checkpoint there
16 because there were strong forces moving towards Novi
18 Q. So there were people from the reserve police
19 force there as well, the Military Police, that is to
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did the Territorial Defence from Ahmici take
23 part in setting up the barricade and in manning the
25 A. No. They were up by Krcevine. We were at
1 the barricade alone.
2 Q. They were in Krcevine. How were they there?
3 They were there to protect you? They were your
5 A. Yes, more or less.
6 Q. With rifles?
7 A. Well, they carried what they had.
8 Q. In the trench at the side, how many people
9 were there?
10 A. About three to four. It was a very small
11 trench. I don't remember who was there.
12 Q. Were they people from the Territorial
14 A. No. They were civilians.
15 Q. Civilians, you say, with rifles?
16 A. Well, some people had rifles. Some didn't.
17 There was one rifle to every three individuals, more or
19 Q. Did people from Vrhovine come and the
20 surrounding villages? Did they come as reinforcements
21 to help you --
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. -- while you were there?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. What was the barricade made up of?
1 A. Well, I don't know, sort of logs, wood, just
2 a sort of obstacle.
3 Q. Were there any mines?
4 A. I don't know. While I was there, there were
5 no mines. Until 3.00 a.m. in the morning, there were
6 no mines. Whether somebody brought some mines later
7 on, I really can't say. But while I was there, up to
8 3.00 a.m., there were not any.
9 Q. So you did not see any mines?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. You said that the checkpoint at the entrance
12 to the village was put up after the 21st when all the
13 Muslims left; right?
14 A. Yes, from that part.
15 Q. All right, from that part. Do you know who
16 was at that checkpoint? How did you manage to see that
17 it was established on the 21st?
18 A. I think that it could be seen quite clearly
19 from the upper part of Ahmici. You can see it with
20 your very own eyes.
21 Q. What is it that you saw?
22 A. We would see them go home and come there.
23 Q. So when it was decided for you to go back,
24 then the decision was made for you to guard the
25 checkpoint together; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Just one more question, and my colleagues
3 already put this question, but I'm only interested in
4 the following: Before the 15th, how much time did you
5 spend at home? Did you come every day?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you go to work on the 15th?
8 A. I came, perhaps, on the 14th or the 15th. I
9 don't know exactly when I came. Otherwise, we could
10 not come. We would spend four or five days up there in
11 the headquarters of the Territorial Defence, and then
12 we would spend about 15 days at the frontline, even up
13 to a month. It all depended, really.
14 Q. So you arrived sometime on the 14th?
15 A. On the 14th or 15th. I came to get a bit of
16 a rest, and I hadn't been home for quite some time.
17 Q. When you were on guard, you were usually in
18 uniform; right?
19 A. Yes. At least I was in uniform, yes.
20 Q. You put on your uniform for guard duty?
21 A. Yes, because I wore it anyway, yes.
22 Q. Did you wear a uniform all the time?
23 A. No, not when I was at home. At home, I would
24 wear civilian clothes. I could hardly wait to put on
25 civilian clothes. We would leave our uniforms back at
1 the headquarters, and we would go home in civilian
2 clothes so that others could wear the uniforms.
3 Q. But you didn't leave this one at the
5 A. No. I took it in a plastic bag. I came by
6 car so I also brought my rifle in the passenger car. I
7 hid it because they searched us at checkpoints.
8 Q. So you went on guard duty in uniform; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said who was with you, Galib Imsirevic;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did he have a weapon?
14 A. Yes, he did. He had a rifle.
15 Q. A semi-automatic rifle?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And his father, Ekrem Imsirevic, did he have
18 a rifle?
19 A. He only took a rifle, when he came around
20 2.00, from Galib Imsirevic.
21 Q. All right. Who was he with on guard duty?
22 A. What do you mean with whom? You mean Ekrem?
23 Q. Yes, Ekrem.
24 A. Ekrem stayed on, on his own.
25 Q. On his own?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you do this every evening or how did you
3 organise this at Krcevine, this guard duty?
4 A. I was there, so we would just walk out in
5 front of the house. I didn't go up to Krcevine. No, I
6 didn't do that.
7 Q. Oh, so you didn't. You guarded the places
8 around your own houses?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But you also tried to have a weapon on;
12 A. Well, those were the times.
13 Q. You also said that the times were such and
14 that you remember the day before that there was great
15 tension in the air?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You also said that there was a strange
18 atmosphere, that no one trusted anyone any longer?
19 A. Yes, that's right. No one would speak, for
21 Q. No one would even speak, I see. Was a
22 decision made after the people, the Bosniaks, returned
23 to the village not even to say hello to Croats, not
24 even to talk the Croats? Wasn't such a decision made
25 to cool off relations completely?
1 A. No. We did not expect our neighbours, our
2 former neighbours, to do that kind of thing. We had
3 trusted them and we had lived with them. They did to
4 us what they did to us.
5 Q. After the first conflict, you said that this
6 was a moral attitude of every person, not to speak to a
7 Croat. Now you said, a few minutes ago, that the
8 Croats around the village did not take part in the
9 attack at all on the 20th?
10 A. A Croat from Vitez or from Ahmici, it's all
11 the same thing.
12 Q. Oh, so it's all the same. Who are the Croats
13 who attacked you?
14 A. Yes. All of them attacked us.
15 Q. But the important thing was that they were
16 Croats, right, the people from the village and all
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Tell me, is it possible that the Croats
20 didn't trust the Muslims either? You said that no one
21 trusted anyone. Is it possible that they didn't trust
22 you either?
23 A. Anything is possible.
24 Q. Is it possible?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Do you know anything about this?
2 A. We didn't trust them, and I don't know
3 whether they trusted us.
4 Q. But there was reason for you to trust one
5 another, because you are speaking in these categories.
6 It is all the same to you, whether it's a Croat from
7 the village or any other Croat?
8 A. On that day in the village, I didn't see
9 anyone. I told you that.
10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you. No further
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume Counsel
13 Radovic has quite a few questions, otherwise, we could
14 finish before lunch.
15 Mr. Radovic, do you have many questions or
16 just one or two?
17 MR. RADOVIC: I don't think I have many
18 questions. I imagine that we will be able to finish
19 with this witness before lunch, if you agree.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
22 Q. When you were in the headquarters of the
23 Territorial Defence, did all members of the staff wear
24 a uniform?
25 A. No.
1 Q. According to what criteria? Did some people
2 have a uniform and others not?
3 A. Priority was given to people who were on the
4 frontline against the Serbs. They got uniforms the
5 most. The Military Police, also, who were on guard
6 duty and went to the frontline, they received
7 uniforms. Whoever went to the frontline against the
8 Serbs would get uniforms.
9 Q. Tell me, what do you believe the staff of the
10 Territorial Defence to be?
11 A. Well, the staff was the staff.
12 Q. Who belonged to the staff? You don't have to
13 give us the names, but tell us the number of people
14 that belonged to the staff, according to you? Did you
15 belong to this staff?
16 A. I belonged to the staff of the Military
17 Police of the Territorial Defence.
18 Q. So you were in charge --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Defence counsel is
20 overlapping the witness.
21 MR. RADOVIC:
22 Q. I'm not interested in the names.
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Those who were in the staff, that is to say,
25 those who were in the leadership, did they all have
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now I'm asking you, once again, according to
4 what criterion, and it is officers who belong to a
5 staff, according to what criterion did they have
6 uniforms or did they not have uniforms? Do you know
7 anyone who did not have a uniform? Again, you don't
8 have to mention names. If you remember, then we're
9 going to ask for a closed session.
10 A. Well, you know, they went through town every
11 day. When they would go to the frontline, they would
12 wear a uniform, but while they were there in town, they
13 didn't have to wear a uniform. Some of them, perhaps,
14 did have uniforms and others did not.
15 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, could we have a
16 closed session for awhile so that we could hear who did
17 have uniforms and who did not have uniforms or shall
18 we, perhaps, continue this after lunch? Would that be
19 better, after all?
20 JUDGE CASSESE: After lunch, yes. We will
21 adjourn now until 2.00.
22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.
2 (The witness entered court)
13 Pages 3676 to 3757 redacted in closed session
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 5.25 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
18 the 6th day of October, 1998 at 09.30 a.m.