1 Tuesday, 6th October, 1998
2 (Closed session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
13 Pages 3758 to 3817 redacted in closed session
10 (Open session)
11 MR. TERRIER:
12 Q. Could you please tell the Court what you
13 remember about that day of the 16th of April, 1993? To
14 start with, do you remember what time you were woken
16 A. Yes, yes, I remember. It was around twenty
17 past five, between 5.00 and 5.30, that is. I was the
18 first one to wake up, as I was always the first one to
19 get up anyway. I got up and I went out to get some
20 water. I came up to the door and I wanted to unlock
21 it, and I heard a detonation. I went back, in order to
22 inform my son and my husband who were asleep, that we
23 were being attacked from some place, that there was
24 shooting. My husband got up and my son too, and we
25 went towards the door. We didn't know where to go. We
1 didn't see anything that was happening around us. The
2 blinds were down, so we didn't dare lift them.
3 However, we hid in a pantry. We thought that
4 we would be the safest there. We spent some ten
5 minutes there, I believe. Ten minutes later, a lady, a
6 neighbour of mine, came to my door. She knocked and
7 she said, "Let's run. We're being attacked. They are
8 torching everything. They are killing everyone."
9 I saw it from my house, and some kind of a
10 tromblone or something had passed through my house.
11 I'm not very knowledgeable about this at all. The two
12 of us got out with her daughter, and we went to the
13 village of Ahmici. My son and my husband stayed on. I
14 said, "Try to save your lives and run." I went through
15 a valley. It is actually a road that is called "The
16 Valley," Dolina, and we came to the main road.
17 We came to the Kupreskic houses,
18 approximately, and we saw that we could not go further
19 towards Ahmici because the houses in Grabovi, at that
20 time, were all burned. We saw the HVO army running
21 across the road, and they were running around there. I
22 didn't know what they were doing and who they were
23 looking for, and we hid underneath a hill. There was a
24 hill there by the Kupreskic houses, so we hid there, I
25 and this lady neighbour of mine and her daughter. We
1 were joined by three sisters and their brother. Then
2 Kemo came. He was a refugee from Karaula, and he came
3 with his family, and we hid there.
4 We didn't know what to do, where we could
5 run, because there was shooting from all sides, from
6 the Kupreskic houses up there and also from Pirici. We
7 had no where to go, and we just sat there. I don't
8 know. We didn't even know what to think or what to
9 do. We were under a blockade there.
10 After some time, my neighbour was hit
11 directly in the back, here, (indicating), in the back
12 of her head and she fell. A few minutes later, my
13 other neighbour, an 18-year-old girl, screamed, "I've
14 been hit too." I didn't know what to do. I saw Kemo
15 coming back along the same road, the same road that we
16 took on our way there. He was there with his family,
17 and I went with them.
18 When we got there, I saw the husband of that
19 neighbour of mine hiding there in the bushes by the
20 Dolina, by that road, and I told him that his wife was
21 wounded. I said, "If you can, try to get to her to
22 help her. I can't do anything." As I was running
23 along that road, bullets were flying all around me and
24 falling all around me, near me, but as luck would have
25 it, or, perhaps, even a lack of luck would have it, I
1 was not hit at all. Because when I found out that my
2 husband had been killed, I didn't care. I didn't know
3 whether anyone had survived. Afterwards, I heard that
4 both of them were killed, and I said, "Why didn't you
5 kill me too? Why did you let me live?"
6 I saw Kemo stopping by a house where he lived
7 as a refugee. I also went into this house. There were
8 twelve of us there. Kemo and his son and his brother,
9 I didn't see them. We hid there, nine of us women and
10 children, I mean.
11 After that, a woman from Karaula came there,
12 and she was crying. I was there to meet her. She said
13 that her husband and her 18-year-old son were killed.
14 She was leading two small children by the hand. She
15 was in tears. She was bitter.
16 We were there, approximately, I don't know,
17 we didn't have any watches, so we didn't know exactly
18 what time it was, we were there, approximately, until
19 around 12.00. Then three HVO members came. They shot
20 a burst of gun fire into the door, and they said, "Open
21 up." We said, "It was open." They walked in and they
22 threw us out. They took us to a swamp called Dolina.
23 There is a forest there, but there weren't really very
24 many trees. I don't know how many, really. They kept
25 us there, perhaps, about three hours, two or three
1 hours. They provoked us. They asked whether we had
2 any money or gold. They provoked me too. They could
3 see my house well from that point, and they asked me
4 whether I felt sorry about my house, and I said, "No.
5 I feel sorry because of these people. Why are you
6 doing all of this? What did you need all of this for?
7 We were neighbours. Until yesterday, we were all one.
8 We would help one another. We would go to visit one
9 another. We lived in harmony. We had a nice life."
10 I don't know. One of them was cursing me. I
11 don't know him, and he held me at gunpoint all the
12 time. I recognised one person there. This Ramiza
13 pushed me over there and said, "There's the one who
14 killed my husband and my son," but she didn't dare
15 point him out to me.
16 After that time, they made us go to the main
17 road, which is what we did. We set out. We were wet
18 because we were sitting in the swamp, but we were
19 ordered to do so. I didn't know, at that time, what
20 was going on. They asked me where my husband and my
21 son were, and I said that I didn't know, because I
22 truly didn't know. They said then, "Well, we know
23 where they are. We killed them and we sent them to
24 God's garden to pick tangerines." I said, "When you
25 killed them, kill me too, because my life no longer
1 matters. My life is no longer important to me."
2 They made us go to the main road. We went up
3 there, and then, again, we sought shelter in the bushes
4 by the main road. A lot of HVO army had gone by
5 there. They were called Gostinje, and they had full
6 military gear on. We saw an UNPROFOR vehicle, and we
7 went up to the road. We didn't know how to talk to
8 them but, to the best of our ability, we explained to
9 them that they should take us anywhere from there, but
10 they should just try to get us out of there so that we
11 wouldn't be there anymore. One of them promised that
12 he would come back. He went to the village of Ahmici.
13 After a longer period of time, as we were
14 waiting for them, we went out into the main road to
15 wait for them, and I heard my name. Somebody had
16 called out my name. I was looking all around, and I
17 noticed, in Vlado's shed, some of our people. I went
18 across the field between Vlado's house and Drago's
19 house. There's a field there. I went to the shed, and
20 I saw a neighbour of mine, her daughter-in-law, her
21 son, two refugees, also. That was a mother-in-law and
22 a daughter-in-law with two young children. They had
23 killed her husband and son too. They killed them
24 before their very own eyes. I said that UNPROFOR would
25 come and that we could all get out of there.
1 At that time, we heard the UNPROFOR coming.
2 We went to the road. Two vehicles came, and we got
3 into these vehicles. As we were boarding the vehicles,
4 I saw an UNPROFOR soldier moving towards Lager, and
5 then I saw him bringing Aladin along. Aladin was in
6 tears, and he asked me, "What is this? What is going
7 on? Where are your folks? I don't know anything."
8 As we were driving, Aladin told me some
9 things, and then when we came to Travnik. We had
10 plenty of time, and Aladin told me about everything
11 that had happened that morning. Drago came with a
12 group of soldiers, and he locked him in there. He
13 begged him to let him go for a minute only, because
14 Smajla was there, and he asked him whether he could go
15 to see a neighbour and get a pill because he had a
16 toothache. This same Drago was on very good terms with
17 these neighbours until the very last day, and he
18 thought that if he asked Drago, that Drago would do
19 that, that he would let him go. In a way, he had
20 warned him, but Drago did not act that way. Drago
21 ordered him to sit there. He disconnected his
22 telephone, and he said, "You will see everything,
23 whatever is being done, and we will come and kill you
25 I really don't know. It was horrible. It
1 was all organised. It was not carried out only during
2 one day or two days. It was going on over a period of
3 days. We were very good neighbours. We had a good
4 life, but they betrayed us. They betrayed us because
5 they attacked us in such a nasty way. They killed
6 innocent people. They wanted to destroy everything so
7 that nobody was left living there, but somehow, by
8 miracle, people survived. So there are people who can
9 come here and tell the Court what really happened, but
10 you can't really tell how it happened. You cannot tell
11 everything. You cannot prove everything.
12 There's one thing I really know: These
13 people were innocent. They were not guilty of
14 anything. They were murdered just like that. They
15 wanted to do that. They were brave enough for killing
16 these people, all of them. I don't know. It was a
17 real disaster.
18 Then one day later, I reached Travnik and I
19 found some accommodation in Travnik. A neighbour of
20 mine came to see me, and she told me that my son was
21 alive, that he had been wounded and that he was in
22 hospital in Travnik. I went to visit my son. I saw
23 him in hospital, and I spent 20 days at the hospital
24 with him, because I wasn't feeling very well myself. I
25 was also sick.
1 Twenty days later, we were transferred to
2 Zenica. I asked my son, "Do you remember anything? Do
3 you know what happened to your father, what happened to
4 others who were hiding with you?" He told me, "Mom, I
5 don't believe that anyone survived. As far as I could
6 tell, they were all killed." This is how our life goes
7 on. We were in Zenica at that time. (redacted)
9 I don't know what else I can tell you. This
10 is what I lived through that day, where I went. I
11 didn't see anyone kill anyone. I cannot tell you
12 anything about that. I'm only telling the truth and
13 what I experienced myself, what my neighbours went
14 through. This is how it happened.
15 Q. Thank you very much, Madam. Let me ask you a
16 few questions following your story. Let us go back to
17 the morning of the 16th of April, 1993. You stated
18 that, following the first shots outside the house, you
19 hid, together with your husband and your son. Then ten
20 minutes later, a neighbour and her daughter arrived.
21 Could you tell the Court what were the names of that
22 neighbour of yours and her daughter?
23 A. My neighbour's name was Nadira Ahmic, and she
24 had a daughter by the name of Zirafeta. Nadira, as I
25 told you, was killed. It was actually two days later
1 that she died. She succumbed to her wounds. She had
2 been severely wounded.
3 Q. You also stated that, together with these two
4 women and other people, you fled towards Ahmici,
5 leaving behind in the house your husband and your son.
6 Could you show to the Judges, on the map, the route
7 that you followed?
8 A. (redacted). I came up there, and then
9 I headed in this direction down the road. I followed
10 this road, this path, all the way here (indicating) and
11 up the hill to the Kupreskic houses. I stopped there.
12 I didn't go any further. There was a hill there below
13 the house of Vlatko Kupreskic, and this is where we
14 took shelter, below this hill.
15 We were there, near the main road below the
16 hill, and we stayed there until Nadira was hit and
17 until Hajra was also hit, her sister as well. Kemo was
18 hit in his arm. When I saw that it was dangerous, I
19 came back along the same road, and I went in this
20 direction here (indicating), and this is where I turned
21 and went to this house, the house of Sulejman Ahmic.
22 This is where I stayed until 12.00.
23 MR. TERRIER: Thank you. For the sake of the
24 transcript, I shall specify that the witness showed the
25 path that goes from her house to the cluster of the
1 Grabovi houses, Sutre, where the Kupreskic houses are
2 to be found, according to her statements.
3 Q. When you arrived in front of the Grabovi
4 houses, did you catch a glimpse of soldiers?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Where were they?
7 A. They were everywhere around these houses and
8 also on the road.
9 Q. Which houses are you speaking of?
10 A. Around the houses that were on fire, the
11 Bosniak houses, in the area called Grabovi. This is
12 all in the vicinity of the house of Vlatko Kupreskic,
13 and these houses were all burned down. They were
14 running around. They were looking for something, but I
15 don't know what. However, they found a group of people
16 around 1.00, and they were surprised that these people
17 were alive. Unfortunately, they managed to survive.
18 Q. These soldiers, were there many of them?
19 A. How shall I tell you? I cannot say that
20 there were hundreds of them. I only saw, maybe,
21 between ten and fifteen of them running across the
22 road. However, later in the afternoon, I saw quite a
23 few soldiers that were coming from Gostinje and that
24 were going in the direction of Dolina where I was taken
25 prisoner. They went there. They probably remained
1 there or continued with their operation from that
3 Q. You stated earlier on that you were close to
4 the house of Vlatko Kupreskic with a group of people
5 and you were stuck there for quite a while. Who were
6 the people you were together with below the Kupreskic
8 A. There was myself, my neighbour Nadira, her
9 daughter Zirafeta; there was Mina as well; Hajra,
10 Besima, their brother, younger brother; there was also
11 Zuleha Osmancevic; Senada was there as well; Kemo with
12 his family, he had a daughter, a son, and a brother, a
13 sister-in-law, his wife, and one more sister. That was
14 the group of people who were there with me.
15 Q. How many men were there in that group?
16 A. There were three men with us and there was
17 this other very young boy, Islam, he was very small,
18 and there was also Adem and his son.
19 Q. Was one of these men wearing a weapon?
20 A. (No audible interpretation)
21 Q. Was one of these men wearing a uniform?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How long do you think you stayed below that
25 A. It all happened very quickly. Nadira was
1 there and these people were hit and I -- after they had
2 been hit, I withdrew very quickly. I didn't stay there
3 longer than 15 minutes. But others remained until
4 1.00, until they were discovered by the HVO soldiers.
5 Q. You saw the fatal wounds inflicted to your
6 neighbour named Nadira.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When she was fatally wounded, was she close
9 to you?
10 A. No. She fell down immediately. She fell on
11 her left side. She didn't say anything, not a word.
12 She simply fell down because she was hit directly in
13 her head.
14 Q. Do you mean that she was hit at the back of
15 her head, in the nape?
16 A. (No audible interpretation)
17 Q. In which position was she in relation to the
18 house of Vlatko Kupreskic?
19 A. Let me try to explain this to you as simply
20 as I can. She was sitting like this, and there was a
21 hill behind her, and on top of the hill was the house
22 of Vlatko Kupreskic and Franjo Kupreskic, so we were in
23 front of the house.
24 Q. Could you give us some more details? Where,
25 according to you, did the shot come from that was to be
1 the fatal shot for your neighbour?
2 A. It came from the house of Vlatko Kupreskic or
3 Franjo Kupreskic; from one of these two houses the
4 bullet came. It couldn't have come from anywhere
5 else. If it had come from the opposite side, she would
6 have been hit in the forehead.
7 Q. According to you, would it be the same for
8 the shot that was to kill Hajra?
9 A. You mean Besima?
10 Q. Hajra.
11 A. Hajra, yes. I can't tell you that because
12 there were other shots at that time. Hajra was still
13 standing at the time, and she told me, "I've been
14 wounded," and she grabbed herself like this, below the
15 chest. But I left at that time, and by the time I was
16 gone, Hajra was already dead.
17 Q. How old was Hajra?
18 A. She was 18.
19 Q. I believe you also mentioned other people who
20 were wounded there, among them Zela -- I don't know
21 whether I am pronouncing her name properly -- a young
22 woman called Zela.
23 A. Yes, she's called Zela but her name is
24 actually Besima. She was wounded in her leg.
25 Q. How old was she back in 1993?
1 A. I don't know that. She was younger than
2 Hajra, but I don't know what age she really was.
3 Q. You explained that after leaving that
4 location where people were wounded and killed, you
5 sought refuge together with other people in the house
6 of Sulejman Ahmic and you indicated his house on this
7 aerial map, this aerial photograph.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you stated that at around noon, three
10 soldiers came. Were you able to recognise either one
11 of them?
12 A. There was one of them, Ivica Srebren and two
14 Q. Could you give us his last name, the last
15 name of Ivica?
16 A. Srebren. I believe that that was his last
18 Q. Was he a neighbour?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did he have a painted face? Did he have a
21 mask so as to hide who he was?
22 A. No, he was not covered with anything. That's
23 how I recognised him. He didn't have a hat or paint on
24 his face, nothing.
25 Q. As to the other two soldiers who were with
1 him, did they have masks or did they have painted
3 A. I don't remember, and I didn't recognise them
4 at all.
5 Q. How many of you were there in that house of
6 Sulejman Ahmic?
7 A. First we stayed in the bathroom because we
8 thought that was the safest place in the house, and
9 then we moved to a room next to the road, and this is
10 how we realised -- we felt that they were coming, that
11 they were below the window. The door was not locked,
12 but in spite of that, they opened fire and they opened
13 the door to frighten us. They told us to open up. We
14 told them it was open and then they broke in. They
15 forced us out of the house. They set the house on
16 fire. They burnt everything. And they expelled us,
17 they took us to that swamp where there were other HVO
19 Q. How did the soldiers behave towards you?
20 Were they threatening you or were they trying to
21 appease you?
22 A. Well, they were provoking us a little, of
23 course, but they didn't do anything to us. It's true,
24 there was some verbal abuse and they told me they'd
25 kill my husband and my son.
1 Q. You then reached the main road. You then
2 mentioned another group of people; they were hiding in
3 one of the annexes of Vlado's house. I don't think you
4 mentioned the family name, the last name. Could you
5 tell it to the Court?
6 A. There was my lady neighbour Vahida there, her
7 son Enver, her daughter-in-law, but I don't know the
8 names of the refugees. There were people from
9 Karaula. There was an old grannie there with her
10 daughter-in-law and two small children.
11 Q. Could you give us the family name of the
12 person who owned the house where you were hiding? You
13 mentioned a certain Vlado.
14 A. Trust me, I'm not very good at their last
15 names. I lived there for ten years, and I don't know
16 all the details.
17 Q. Aladin told you what had happened to him on
18 the 16th of April. In so doing, he mentioned a certain
19 Drago. Do you know the family name, the surname of
20 that person?
21 A. (No audible interpretation)
22 Q. Would you mind mentioning this? It was
23 inaudible. Would you mind repeating the surname of
24 that person?
25 A. Drago Josipovic.
1 Q. When did Aladin tell you that story?
2 A. He told me when we reached Travnik, in front
3 of the hospital.
4 Q. On that same day?
5 A. The same day, that very same day.
6 Q. To conclude, I would like to show you two
8 Can I have the help of the usher?
9 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked 256.
10 A. This is Franjo's and Vlatko's house.
11 MR. TERRIER:
12 Q. When you were hiding down from that small
13 hill, were you able to see Vlatko Kupreskic's house and
14 Franjo's Kupreskic's house in that same way?
15 A. Yes, when we would get up, but since we were
16 sitting underneath this slope, we couldn't see it.
17 Q. Back then, in 1993, was the terrain
18 configured in the same way as it is now shown on this
20 A. No. At that time, there was a slope there,
21 but now it's all been flattened.
22 MR. TERRIER: I would like to produce Exhibit
23 P245 to the witness. It was admitted yesterday.
24 A. That is the vehicle that came to pick us up.
25 There's a group of people there, and I'm among them.
1 That is that picture. Lager is there on the left-hand
2 side, Drago's house. That's where I was waiting.
3 Q. You can see a vehicle, UNPROFOR vehicle --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- on this road, and close to this vehicle,
6 you can see a group of people. Do you know who these
7 people are?
8 A. You mean the group of people here in this
9 photograph? Could you make it clearer to me? Yes,
10 it's us, it's us, it's us. There were two vehicles
11 there, you know, and some of us were getting in. Two
12 vehicles came to pick us up. I know all the people who
13 were transferred to Travnik in these vehicles. We were
14 transferred by UNPROFOR.
15 MR. SUSAK: I withdraw my question,
16 Mr. President, or, rather, I withdraw my intention to
17 put a question.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
19 MR. TERRIER:
20 Q. You stated that on the left of this
21 photograph, you can see Drago's house. Would you mind
22 stating the last name of this person you just
24 A. Josipovic.
25 Q. And then to the right of this photograph, of
1 the road, there is a building -- or do you know which
2 building was built there?
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not
4 hear the witness.
5 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Madam. I would like
6 Exhibits P255 and P256 to be tendered into evidence,
7 Exhibit P255 under seal.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: The answer provided by the
9 witness to the last question was not heard.
10 MR. TERRIER: I'm going to ask the question
12 Q. Madam, do you know what is to be found on the
13 right-hand side of the road?
14 A. Lager. That's it. Where Aladin was
16 Q. What kind of a building was it?
17 A. It wasn't a building at all. It was
18 something very small. Only guards were there. It was
19 called Lager. Construction materials were being held
21 Q. Do you know what this company or factory is
23 A. (No audible interpretation)
24 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very, Your Honour. I
25 have no further questions.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you very much. Counsel
3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, Mr. Luka Susak
4 intends to cross-examine the witness, but I don't know
5 whether the time would be right to take a break now.
6 His cross-examination will certainly take longer than
7 these few minutes that we have left until 12.30, so I
8 believe that it would be better to proceed after the
9 lunch break.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: We will adjourn now until
14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.25 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m.
2 (Open session)
3 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, if I may, with
4 your permission?
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Krajina?
6 MR. KRAJINA: I have to inform you that in
7 accordance with today's decision of the Trial Chamber,
8 we submitted to the Registrar information about the
9 witnesses who will be called by the Court. I would
10 like to state we have submitted statements for three
11 witnesses, instead of four, as was initially planned,
12 because we gave up one witness. The reason is because
13 it was only today that we managed to establish that he
14 is underage. He is the son of the witness who appears
15 on the videotape, and we thought that it would not be
16 just and fair to call a minor person before the Trial
18 This is why we have submitted a list
19 containing three witnesses, instead of four. We
20 thought that he was of age, but during the break today,
21 we established that he is still underage. This is why
22 we decided to call three, instead of four, witnesses.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Susak?
24 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:
1 Q. Witness BB, good afternoon.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. My name is Luka Susak, and I'm an attorney at
4 law. I wish to ask you a few questions. You said that
5 you had a(redacted)
7 (redacted)I cant hear you very well.
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, we do not need to
10 go into closed session at this point, but later on it
11 might become necessary.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will carry out
13 the necessary redactions, but now I wonder whether you
14 wish to move into a closed session right away.
15 MR. SUSAK: I would definitely feel safer if
16 we move into a closed session right now.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
18 (Closed session)
13 Page 4841 redacted in closed session
13 Page 3842 redacted in closed session
5 (Open session)
6 MR. SUSAK:
7 Q. You indicated that you were waiting for
8 UNPROFOR. Do you know who was the first person to
9 board the vehicles?
10 A. I don't know. We all got on the vehicle, but
11 I don't know who was the first one.
12 Q. Were you in a hurry?
13 A. Well, yes, we were in a hurry. We wanted to
14 leave the place as soon as possible.
15 Q. When did you get in?
16 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
17 Q. When UNPROFOR vehicles arrived, did you have
18 to wait for a long time? Did you remain standing on
19 the road for a long time?
20 A. Yes, we did, for about 15 or 20 minutes.
21 Q. You testified today about Aladin. Do you
22 know his last name?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. Could you please describe that person for
25 us? What did he look like? How tall was he? How was
1 he dressed?
2 A. I don't know that either. I just know him as
3 a worker who used to work there. He used to visit my
4 sister-in-law and Smajla Ahmic. He was a good friend
5 of theirs. This is all I know about him. He never
6 came to my place. I only saw him in passing. There
7 are even people here whom I don't know who were my
8 neighbours, but I did not see them. I don't know them.
9 Q. Could you be more specific as to the way he
10 looked, how he was dressed? Do you know how tall he
12 A. No, I really don't know. I couldn't care
13 less that day, you know. I didn't pay attention to
14 what people were wearing, what they looked like. My
15 only concern was whether we would be able to survive,
16 whether my son would survive, and what would happen to
17 us. This was all my concern, and I didn't look around.
18 Q. You stated that there were two UNPROFOR
19 vehicles there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was Aladin in the same vehicle as you on the
22 way to Travnik?
23 A. Yes, he was.
24 Q. Did you get off at the same time in Travnik?
25 A. Yes, we did.
1 Q. Did you separate at that point, and where did
2 you go?
3 A. We spent some time in front of the hospital,
4 not very long, and this is where Aladin told me his
5 story, what he had been through. I know I went to
6, (redacted) and her
7 brother-in-law. As to other people, I really don't
8 know where they went.
9 Q. You gave a statement on the 3rd of September,
10 1995. On how many occasions were you interviewed by
11 the Prosecutor before you came here today to testify?
12 A. On two occasions. This was the first
13 statement, and there was one more after that. This is,
14 at least, my recollection.
15 Q. Do you think or do you know that?
16 A. On two occasions.
17 Q. The first statement you gave on the 3rd of
18 September, '95, and you did not mention Aladin
19 Karahodza in that statement. Why is it that you've
20 mentioned him today?
21 A. I'm sorry, but I did mention Aladin in every
22 statement. It must be a mistake. I don't know whose
23 mistake it is, but I mentioned Aladin in all my
25 Q. Maybe this is the Prosecutor's mistake.
1 A. I don't know. I always mentioned Aladin in
2 all of my statements.
3 Q. You did not mention him in the statement
4 dated the 3rd of September, 1995; however, he has
5 become a central issue today.
6 A. I always mentioned Aladin.
7 Q. You said that while you were standing next to
8 the vehicle, you saw Aladin. When, exactly, was it
9 that you saw him?
10 A. I saw him when the vehicle was approaching.
11 He was walking with an UNPROFOR member. Aladin was
12 walking in front of this UNPROFOR member.
13 Q. This is very vague now. Did you see him?
14 What direction was he coming from?
15 A. He was coming from the direction of Lager.
16 Q. Was that the first time that you noticed him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. As he was getting out or --
19 A. I saw him as he was walking along the road.
20 I didn't see him getting out of the Lager. I only saw
21 that he was accompanied by an UNPROFOR member.
22 Q. You said that they walked in line?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You said Aladin was crying?
25 A. Yes, he was.
1 Q. Did you talk to Aladin while you were
2 travelling to Travnik?
3 A. We didn't talk much. We spent most of the
4 time crying, rather than talking.
5 Q. Was there any difference in what you stated
6 about Aladin's story in respect of what other people
7 told you? When was it that he was locked in the
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know which room he was in?
11 A. No, I can't tell you that either. I just
12 know that he was locked up.
13 Q. You are from that place. Do you know more
14 about that facility?
15 A. Excuse me. I'm not from that particular
17 Q. I apologise. You lived there. You're not
18 from that place. Can you please tell us whether there
19 are any doors or windows on that building?
20 A. I don't know. This all happened six years
21 ago. I may have missed something. This has been a
22 very harsh period for myself. I've lost so much, and
23 I've been through such horrible things.
24 Q. You remember certain moments, but you don't
25 remember the person and the facility?
1 A. All I know was that there was this facility
2 and that Aladin was on guard duty that night. Vlado
3 knows about that very well, because he was in front of
4 Smajla Ahmic's house at that time when they killed a
5 cow, a calf. He knew Aladin very well. He knew him
6 better than I did, because Drago lived opposite the
7 Lager where Aladin was working. I believe I'm clear.
8 Q. Was there any glass on those windows and the
10 A. I don't know. They probably had some kind of
11 glass. You couldn't have a window without the glass.
12 Q. This is not what I asked you. Was there any
13 glass on the window and the doors of the Lager?
14 A. I cannot tell you that. I never paid any
15 attention to that. I never entered the place; do you
16 understand me?
17 Q. Can you see that facility from the road?
18 A. Yes, you can.
19 Q. Is it close to the road?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. How come you didn't see that there were
22 windows and doors on the Lager?
23 A. I just told you, I didn't pay much attention
24 to details on that day. I never thought that I would
25 end up here before the Tribunal. I couldn't have
1 imagined that, and I was so disappointed by my
2 neighbours, because all the things they did to us.
3 I would like to ask them the same question.
4 Once again, why? What was the reason why they behaved
5 the way they did? How come they killed 120 innocent
6 people in one afternoon? You're trying to provoke me
7 here, and I'm telling you the truth. I made a solemn
8 declaration, and I'm a religious person, and I'm
9 telling you what I saw.
10 I would like to ask the accused, I don't care
11 if they walk tomorrow or not, I would just like to hear
12 the reason why they did this to us. We were such good
13 neighbours. We got along very well. I was friends
14 with Drago's mother, with his wife, with his brothers,
15 with everyone. They know very well that my husband, my
16 son, never created any problems for anyone. This is
17 the only thing I would like to know. I would like to
18 see one honest Croat who believes in God the way I
19 believe. I would like to hear him say why this was
20 destroyed, why this village was completely destroyed,
21 Zume, Krcevine, Polje, all the way up to the Upper
22 Ahmici? I would like to hear the reason why they did
24 Was it because there was so much hatred in
25 these people? Why did they do this to us? This is the
1 only thing I'm interested in. I'm not accusing anyone
3 Q. Well, Madam, please be calm. Are you still
5 A. I'm not angry. I'm not an angry person. I'm
6 just bitter. I just haven't got over the members of my
7 family that were killed, and I have lost everything. I
8 spent 27 years in a marriage. I had a farm, and I lost
9 everything I had in the scope of one morning.
10 Q. You keep telling us about all these trifles,
11 and then when you were questioned about this event,
12 which I mentioned to you earlier, you present these
13 events, but then you didn't. You didn't mention all of
14 this. How come you remember today, without even
15 questions being put to you, as you were just telling
16 your story?
17 A. Let me still you one thing: I always told
18 this story, except that it wasn't important to enter it
19 in my statement, at least that's what I think. But
20 whenever I went to talk to people, I would always tell
21 them exactly about my life and what I had lived
23 Q. When Aladin came to the vehicle, did he wait
24 for a long time before he entered?
25 A. No, just a little bit, just a few minutes.
1 We got in immediately, all of us. All of us boarded
2 the two vehicles.
3 Q. Yes, but before, you said that you waited
4 about 15 to 20 minutes?
5 A. Yes, we did, sir. We waited for UNPROFOR,
6 but when UNPROFOR came, we boarded quickly.
7 Q. Aladin, when he came, did he get into the
8 vehicle immediately or did he wait for some time?
9 A. Do you understand that if somebody is getting
10 into a vehicle before you, you have to wait for that
11 person to get into the vehicle, and only then can you
12 board a vehicle. He couldn't just jump into the
13 vehicle, like, out of the sky. What do you think?
14 When the other people got in, then Aladin got in too.
15 Q. We're not going to mention the names of your
16 husband and son, but could you tell us whether your
17 husband had a weapon?
18 A. No. My husband was only a worker, nothing
20 Q. And your son?
21 A. My son, I said that he was a minor. He was
22 just about 18. It's not important. He was in some
23 kind of Territorial Defence.
24 Q. You want to say that he was a minor. When
25 did he become a member of the Territorial Defence; do
1 you know that?
2 A. I can't say that. I really don't know.
3 Q. Could you tell me, how could Aladin describe
4 Drago when he didn't know?
5 A. Aladin knew Drago very well.
6 Q. How come you know?
7 A. I know and Drago knows.
8 Q. I'm asking you, because before you said you
9 couldn't describe him, and today you say you know him
10 well, and you're saying the opposite. How do you know
11 that he knows Drago?
12 A. Because he was a guard there, and Drago went
13 by every day. Just as I would see him, Aladin would
14 see him, and he would see Aladin. That's the way it
16 Q. Yes, but he was employed, and you can only
17 assume that. Just one more question: Could you please
18 repeat what Aladin said that Drago Josipovic told him?
19 A. Drago came with a group of soldiers, and he
20 locked him in there. That's what Aladin told me. I
21 swore that I would speak the truth. He locked him in,
22 and he said, "Whatever you see, no one will know,
23 because you will be the last one that we will kill."
24 Those are the words that he told me. Unfortunately,
25 Aladin is no longer with us today. He just asked him
1 to go to Smajla Ahmic's to get a pill, but they
2 wouldn't let him do that either, so Aladin stayed
4 Q. You said a few minutes ago that Aladin
5 Karahodza was dead. When did you find out about his
7 A. I don't recall that either.
8 Q. Did you change your statement after you found
9 out about Aladin Karahodza's death?
10 A. No, heaven forbid. I swear by everything
11 that I never changed my statement.
12 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. No
13 further questions.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder whether
15 the Prosecutor would like to re-examine the witness?
16 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Your Honour, just for the
17 sake of the transcript, paragraph 18, I believe, at a
18 given point in time answering a question raised by
19 Mr. Susak, the witness first mentions a certain Drago
20 living opposite the facility and then mentions another
21 Drago. It might be worth asking the question.
22 Obviously, we're dealing with one in the same person.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. It might be better to
24 ask the question.
25 Re-examined by Mr. Terrier:
1 Q. This is my question: Witness BB, you
2 mentioned a person opposite the facility known as
3 Lager. What is that person's name?
4 A. Drago Josipovic.
5 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.
6 Thank you very much, Madam.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?
8 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, since the
9 witness's statement differs from the testimony she has
10 given today, I would like to tender into evidence her
11 statement of the 3rd of September, 1995, and I would
12 like it to be admitted into evidence.
13 Could the usher kindly take this copy?
14 JUDGE CASSESE: What is the position of the
15 Prosecution? Is there any objection from the
17 MR. TERRIER: None whatsoever, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. It is admitted into
20 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D4/4.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. There are no
22 questions from the Court. I assume there's no
23 objection to the witness being released.
24 Witness BB, thank you so much, indeed, for
25 coming here to give evidence in court. You may now be
1 released. Thank you.
2 (The witness withdrew)
3 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, whilst we're
4 waiting for the next witness to come in, may I raise
5 two questions in respect of the list for the witnesses
6 we have planned for this week?
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Please do.
8 MR. TERRIER: We had an investigator who was
9 in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the central region in
10 Ahmici last week and noted a few facts and made a few
11 observations, including those requested by Judge May,
12 in relation to the distances between several points,
13 distances that were recorded and put down on the map.
14 The investigator also made some photographs of specific
15 locations which were mentioned during the proceedings.
16 We wish to convey all the above facts and
17 observations to the Court, because they may be of
18 relevance for searching the truth and also in the
19 prospect of your future visit to Central Bosnia in ten
20 to twelve days' time.
21 If you agree to this, we'd like this witness
22 to come into Court, either late this week or early next
23 week, so as to submit those documents that he gathered
24 in Bosnia. We hadn't conveyed the name of this
25 investigator to the Court or to Defence counsel, but in
1 keeping with the Rules which were formulated at the
2 beginning of these proceedings, we ask for the
3 authorisation so as to have the witness called.
4 His name is Howard Tucker. He is an
5 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you have a written
7 document, some statement, or a memorandum, a short
8 memorandum, so as to submit this to the Defence?
9 MR. TERRIER: We could ask him to draft a
10 short memo of what he did back in Bosnia and of what he
11 is going to report to you. This could be produced to
12 the Defence.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: We could have the witness
14 come in two days after the day on which the document,
15 the memorandum, would be submitted to the Defence,
16 which could give the Defence sufficient time for
18 MR. TERRIER: Fine. I have a second
19 question, Your Honours, if you allow me to? As to the
20 list for this week, we have No. 15, Tone Bringa. It is
21 badly spelled, but the proper name is Tone Bringa. As
22 you know and as the Defence know, this person is an
23 anthropologist, she is Norwegian, she has been living
24 in the United States for some years, and we would like
25 her to come and testify for several reasons which I
1 would like to present to you very succinctly.
2 We heard that this witness, for very good
3 family reasons which I need not expand upon today, will
4 not be able to come either this week or next week,
5 regrettably so, but circumstances are such that she
6 can't come.
7 We would like her to come and testify because
8 she would be in a position to answer questions that the
9 Court is possibly going to ask itself and questions
10 that could be asked of various witnesses. They relate
11 to the way the relationships within the communities
12 evolved, especially so, the Croat and Muslim
13 communities in Central Bosnia from 1992 to 1993. She
14 is the author of a book that was published in 1995 at
15 the Princeton Publishing House in New Jersey entitled
16 "The Muslim Way." This book recapitulates the work
17 she carried out before the war in 1988 in a village
18 that was close to Kiseljak. It is a very specific
19 village which is of interest to us because in its
20 ethnic composition it was very close to the village of
21 Ahmici and, geographically speaking, it is very close
22 to Ahmici as well.
23 The witness, after the war broke out,
24 returned to that very same village in order to shoot a
25 film. It was shot in January and February 1993, and a
1 follow-up was done in April and May of the same year,
2 in 1993. It is entitled "We Are All Neighbours." It
3 is a 50-minute film which was produced by a British
4 house associated with the BBC and the film was
5 broadcast on the BBC.
6 This testimony is very interesting to us
7 inasmuch as it shows these neighbourhood relationships
8 in a village that was very much like Ahmici, a village
9 that we have been speaking about for three to four
10 weeks. This testimony, additionally, will show how
11 these good neighbourhood relationships evolved in the
12 beginning of the war and really got worse and worse as
13 the war went on in 1993.
14 As the Court said on several occasions, it is
15 eager to establish the truth, and even though this
16 testimony may not be absolutely of paramount
17 importance, it may be used in establishing the truth as
19 Given the situation we find ourselves in, and
20 I submit this to the appreciation of the Defence
21 counsel, I have the feeling that this Court could
22 receive the book and the film that was made by Tone
23 Bringa; then, at a later stage and if necessary,
24 possibly before the Defence case or even after the
25 Defence case and upon request by Your Honours, say
1 towards the end of this year (sic), this person could
2 be summoned to testify and to be cross-examined by the
3 Defence, by both parties.
4 We believe this would be useful information,
5 very precious information indeed, and it would be a
6 pity to do without it given the circumstances we find
7 ourselves in.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: So what do you suggest?
9 MR. TERRIER: So that we do tender into
10 evidence this book published by Princeton Publishing
11 House and possibly to have the film, the video film
12 which was produced and made by the witness, future
13 witness, for that to be also tendered into evidence or
14 it could even be shown today. That film was shown on
15 the BBC.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: We could have this, this
18 MR. TERRIER: Yes, this week or next week,
19 according to your wishes.
20 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
22 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President ...
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
24 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, first of all,
25 please do not get angry, but we object to your starting
1 deliberating about the decision before we manage to
2 state our point of view, and the Defence --
3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Radovic, we were not
4 deliberating, we were merely discussing the submission
5 that had been made. Of course we would have heard you
6 before we come to a decision. You needn't worry about
8 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. So the balance is
9 established -- is being respected. It is Counsel
10 Pavkovic who will state our point of view.
11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good afternoon,
12 Mr. President. You did not really request our opinion,
13 and my colleague, Mr. Radovic, announced me as a
14 speaker. Do you allow me to address the Court on this
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Of course, yes.
17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Let me say that we have only
18 now learned about this particular issue stated by the
19 Prosecutor. Of course, everything that is conducive to
20 establishing the truth and everything that is part of a
21 fair trial is acceptable to the Defence. However, in
22 order for us to advance our opinion on this, we would
23 need to be familiar with the contents of the film and
24 the book. If this witness is going to be requested to
25 confirm certain of her views that are propounded in the
1 book, we would have to receive that in due course. We
2 would need certain time to go through this material and
3 only then would we be able to express our view.
4 This is all I can tell you right now at this
5 particular moment. We cannot say anything else before
6 we get the material, before we learn something more
7 about the contents of the film and the book.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.
9 I think the Court agrees with you. The Prosecutor
10 should turn over to the Defence counsel both the book
11 and the film maybe today, as soon as possible, in any
12 case, and then maybe next week you can state your
13 position to see whether you can tell us whether or not
14 you object to the book and the film being presented in
15 court. In any case, we will then decide what to do.
16 All right. So I hope the Defence -- I see
17 that Mr. Terrier agrees.
18 As for the other witness, the investigator,
19 we agree that the Defence should, as soon as possible,
20 receive a written statement. However, I hope that the
21 Prosecution are aware that the list of witnesses now is
22 long and it becomes even longer, and in addition, don't
23 forget that we will probably, towards the end of this
24 week or next week, hear the lady whom the Court has
25 called as a Court witness. We will know tomorrow
1 morning about that. So, therefore, it's for you to
2 decide. In any case, we have to finish on Friday of
3 next week at lunchtime because probably in the
4 afternoon we will have the Defence conference or
5 pre-Defence conference, I think it's called.
6 MR. TERRIER: Let me note that the list is
7 now shorter because No. 15 is out of the list and
8 because the Norwegian anthropologist will not come.
9 But, indeed, we are having a fresh look at the list,
10 and we will see whether we can make it so that some
11 witnesses are not called, then we will do so.
12 I also point out that if we have this
13 investigator, it will be a very short testimony because
14 he hasn't got much to say. The only thing he has to do
15 is to convey to the Court the result of his work in
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Fine. So we will move on to
18 Witness No. 4.
19 MR. TERRIER: Yes, on the list it is No. 4
20 with the usual protective measures. His or her
21 pseudonym will be CC.
22 (The witness entered court)
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon, Witness CC.
24 Could you please make the solemn declaration?
25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
5 WITNESS: WITNESS CC
6 Examined by Mr. Terrier:
7 Q. Madam, I have written down your name on this
8 piece of paper. I am asking you to merely confirm that
9 it is indeed your name.
10 A. Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked
12 Exhibit P257.
13 MR. TERRIER:
14 Q. Keeping with your request, the Court ruled
15 that the protective measures you requested were
16 granted. This means that your face and your name will
17 not be disclosed outside of this courtroom. You are
18 therefore safely protected. You can feel free to give
19 your testimony and to recount the events that you
21 With your agreement, Your Honour, we could
22 move to closed session for a few moments so that I can
23 show you the house in which this witness lived in
25 (Closed session)
13 Page 3864 redacted in closed session
21 (Open session)
22 Q. Madam, can you tell us about the events of
23 the 16th of April, 1993, as precisely as you can?
24 A. On the 16th of April, 1993, around 6.00,
25 maybe ten minutes past 6.00, we woke up to the sound of
1 shooting and explosions.
2 We got up. We started getting ready, getting
3 dressed, and then we got out of the room where we were
4 sleeping and moved to another room where my parents
5 were getting ready. So we went towards the door, we
6 wanted to go outside, but we didn't manage to get out
7 because before we reached the door, we had looked
8 through the window -- there was one window on the
9 corridor -- so we opened the window and we realised
10 that houses were already on fire in Ahmici.
11 We were watching that --
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry. Counsel Radovic?
13 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I would kindly
14 ask my learned colleague from the Prosecution to warn
15 the witness that she should use the first person
16 singular because she keeps saying "we." So we're not
17 quite clear what refers to whom. I don't know whether
18 she means herself or other members of her family. She
19 said "We opened the window." I mean, it's obvious that
20 only one person opened the window, and there are more
21 examples of that. So I would kindly ask the witness to
22 use the first person singular.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
24 MR. TERRIER: Well, it's the family spirit
25 prevailing here, you see?
1 JUDGE CASSESE: I think that Mr. Radovic is
2 right. You should ask the witness to express herself
3 not on everybody's behalf but on her own behalf.
4 MR. TERRIER: All I wanted to say is that she
5 was evoking a family tragedy, so when she says "we,"
6 she mentions the family and more so her brother and
7 herself. What I also mean by that is that she is not
8 trying to hide behind this "we," behind other people,
9 but I do realise what is being said, and I shall invite
10 the witness to take Mr. Radovic's remark into account.
11 Q. Madam Witness, can you please describe the
12 events using the first person?
13 A. I returned to my room and I spent some time
14 there just sitting. Then I heard steps, military
15 boots, soldiers who were walking around the house, and
16 they came to the window of the room where I was
17 sitting. There were iron bars on the window and there
18 was also glass on the window, and they started kicking
19 the window and hitting the window with the rifles
20 butts. The glass of the window broke, and at that
21 moment, I said something to the effect that we should
22 go out. But they said that they would not throw a hand
23 grenade in the house. This is how it happened. This
24 is how I got out of the house.
25 I opened the door, the entrance door to the
1 house, and I got out. There were two soldiers standing
2 in front of the house of Husein Ahmic. They looked at
3 us, and they told us, "Hands up." They also told us to
4 bend our heads and not to look around. And this is
5 what I did. I bent my head and I got out of the house.
6 As I was getting out, I saw that Zec
7 Sabahudin and his wife and daughter were lying in front
8 of the house, so I could see them right away. When I
9 started walking, my family, the rest of my family
10 followed me, and we went around our house.
11 These two soldiers who threw the hand
12 grenade, they came to the house, behind the house, and
13 they told us to leave and they told my father to stay.
14 They said he should stay with them.
15 I was the first one in the line. I was very
16 afraid, I was frightened.
17 Q. Madam, take your time.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Shall we take a break? Ten
20 MR. TERRIER: Madam, we're going to have a
21 break, a short break.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 --- Recess taken at 2.55 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 3.05 p.m.
25 (The witness entered court)
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Witness CC, do you feel
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
5 MR. TERRIER:
6 Q. Madam, if you don't mind, we shall attempt to
7 resume the testimony. You were at the point where the
8 soldiers asked you to raise your hands. You had
9 stopped there. Would you mind resuming from there?
10 A. I raised my hands and we set out. In front
11 of the house, when we arrived in front of the house,
12 they left my father there, and they told me to run
13 wherever I could.
14 I was the first to leave. The two soldiers,
15 who were standing there by the house, they came to the
16 road, and then I turned around to see where my father
17 was. One of them told me not to turn around, that I
18 should run. I turned around and I ran. I didn't turn
19 my head again.
20 I came to the mosque. I passed by the
21 mosque, and then I ran towards the middle part of
22 Ahmici and towards Upper Ahmici.
23 MR. TERRIER: Please, Usher, can you help
24 me? I would like to show this photograph to the
1 Your Honour, is it possible to move to a
2 closed session, not only because this photograph will
3 identify the house mentioned by the witness earlier on,
4 but it might help the witness to feel better, given the
5 difficult circumstances of her testimony.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Fine. Let's move to a closed
8 (Closed session)
13 Pages 3871 to 3912 redacted in closed session
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
16 5.05 p.m., to be reconvened on
17 Wednesday, the 7th day of October, 1998
18 at 9.30 a.m.