1 Thursday, 8th September, 1998
2 (The accused entered court)
3 (Open session)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the
6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and
8 Vladimir Santic also know as "Vlado".
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
10 Counsel Puliselic.
11 MR. PULISELIC: Good morning, Mr. President.
12 Before we begin the examination of the witness, I would
13 like to introduce Mrs. Nika Pinter, my co-counsel.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Welcome to
15 your court. Mr. Moskowitz?
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We too. Prosecution also
17 welcomes Defence counsel to the Court.
18 With regard to two orders that were
19 introduced by the Prosecution and accepted into
20 evidence, that would be Exhibit 251 and Exhibit 252, I
21 believe the Court has requested us, the Prosecution, to
22 determine whether there are any originals available,
23 and I would like to report back to the Court on what
24 our investigation has revealed to date, which is that
25 these two exhibits were, in fact, tendered as Defence
1 exhibits in the Blaskic case.
2 They were tendered as copies, not as
3 originals, and, therefore, there are, as far as we
4 know, no originals yet available either to the Defence
5 in Blaskic or if they're available to the Defence in
6 Blaskic they have not as yet produced them. We do not
7 have originals, and it's our information that those
8 exhibits were tendered but not yet admitted into
9 evidence because of a witness who could not
10 authenticate them, but that, in fact, there is a
11 witness testifying at this time dealing with these
12 exhibits and they may be admitted at that time. But as
13 to whether there are originals, at this time, there are
14 no originals that we know of.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
16 (The witness entered court)
17 A. Good morning.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS EE (Resumed)
20 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
21 Q. Good morning, Witness EE.
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. Now, I would like to start with the events of
24 April 16, 1993. To assist you in your testimony, I
25 would ask that the usher provide you with the diagram
1 of your house, which is Exhibit 275.
2 Now, from time to time I will ask you to
3 refer to that diagram, but you need not be referring to
4 it all the time.
5 Now, I want you to think back to April 16,
6 1993, and could you tell us where you were that morning
7 before the attack started?
8 A. We were on the first floor of our house, in
9 the bedroom.
10 Q. By "we," who do you mean?
11 A. I mean my husband, and my children and
13 Q. Now, could you tell us what the first thing
14 you remember of that morning, the first thing you
16 A. The first thing was a strong detonation and
17 shooting. A strong detonation first, followed by
19 Q. What do you recall doing, or hearing, or
20 seeing next?
21 A. At the same instance we all jumped up.
22 Q. What did you do next?
23 A. I grabbed my children by their shoulders, my
24 husband was in front of me, and I went out into the
25 hallway. We tried to go into the bathroom up above, on
1 the floor above. I opened the door and the bullets
2 were already firing through the bathroom window and
3 going into the wall. I automatically shut the door,
4 got my children away and we returned to the hallway, on
5 the landing.
6 Q. Now, when you say you opened the door, which
7 door are you referring to?
8 A. The bathroom door on the floor above.
9 Q. Now, after you closed the door of the
10 bathroom and pulled your children away, what do you
11 remember next?
12 A. I didn't push my children, I kept holding on
13 to them by the shoulders, and all four of us went down
14 the stairs into the lower hallway, that is the floor
15 below, and we stood in the hallway there.
16 Q. While you stood in the hallway there, you and
17 your family, did you hear or see anything at that
19 A. We stood in the hallway and we were mute,
20 just looking at each other. Then there were terrible
21 voices to be heard, terrible voices, and I can hear
22 them even now. They called out my husband's name.
23 They called him, "Open the door, this is the police."
24 This was repeated several times, but we kept quiet
25 because we were terribly afraid by this time.
1 Q. When you heard your husband's name being
2 called, what were you thinking?
3 A. I saw that nothing nice was happening. It
4 was terrible.
5 Q. What did your husband do next, or what did
6 you do, or what did you see or hear next?
7 A. As we didn't say anything and there were
8 these voices shouting, suddenly there was a burst of
9 gunfire. This part here is in glass, it is a glass
10 partition. This is a wall, and up above the wall was
11 glass panes. There was a large door and part of the
12 door was in glass as well. The bursts of gunfire
13 reverberated against the glass and the doors fell off.
14 Q. Now, you're referring to the part of the
15 diagram that has the number 2 on it; is that right?
16 A. Yes, yes. That's right. From these steps
17 they were firing at the door, and, of course, the
18 bullets hit the glass panelling and so the glass
20 Q. Where were you and your family when you heard
21 that firing from outside?
22 A. We have a hallway here (indicating). From
23 that hallway was the door leading to the garage, and to
24 the living-room, and to the kitchen, and the door to
25 the bathroom, and a door to a storage place which had
1 ceramic tiling in it. At that particular point we were
2 in this hallway.
3 Q. Was the door leading into the main part of
4 the house, marked number 1, was that doorway at that
5 time open or closed when you heard the firing from
7 A. No. When they started shooting at the glass
8 and the door fell -- caved in, my husband unlocked this
9 other door. As he unlocked it, he opened the door, he
10 was standing here, my children and I were here, and I
11 kept holding the children mechanically. I felt that my
12 fist mechanism had become rigid, had locked. When my
13 husband opened the door, I saw, in this part here,
14 soldiers in full military uniform.
15 Q. Now, perhaps, with the help of the usher, I
16 will ask you to take one of those markers, perhaps the
17 orange one would show up best, and do a couple of
18 things for us. Could you put an X where your husband
19 was standing when he opened the door that morning?
20 A. (Marks)
21 Q. Could you put the letter "A" where you were
22 standing with your children when your husband opened
23 the door and you saw soldiers? Just the letter "A" so
24 we can place your position first?
25 A. The position was here (marks).
1 Q. Could you put a circle in the area where you
2 saw soldiers when your husband opened the door? Make
3 it, I guess, big enough to include the general area
4 where the soldiers were standing when you saw them, so
5 we know how big an area they occupied. You can make a
6 large circle or a small circle, whatever you think is
8 A. You want me to place a circle; is that
9 right? I didn't quite understand you.
10 Q. Yes. A circle to show, in the general area,
11 where the soldiers were standing when you saw them when
12 your husband opened the door, again, using the marker.
13 A. (Marks)
14 Q. Now, when your husband opened the door and
15 you saw those men standing there, about how long did
16 you have to see them before your eyes shifted to
17 something else?
18 A. It was seconds, a the matter of seconds.
19 Very quick. When my husband opened the door, I looked
20 at them all like this, as I'm -- this way. When he
21 open the door, I looked at them, I looked at all of
22 them, and I was dumbfounded. Nobody said anything. My
23 husband didn't say anything, they didn't say anything,
24 the children didn't say anything.
25 Q. When you looked at these men, these soldiers,
1 for those two seconds or so, did you form an impression
2 as to who these soldiers were at that time?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. Who did you recognise standing there at that
6 A. Vlado Santic, Zeljo Livancic, Drago
7 Josipovic, Marinko Katava, Karlo Cerkez.
8 Q. At that time did you recognise anyone else in
9 those two seconds?
10 A. At this moment I just cannot think. I know
11 Katava was there, Cerkez was there, Zeljo, Santic,
13 Q. Now, when your husband opened the door you
14 saw these soldiers standing there --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- what did you see happen next?
17 A. Mr. Santic and Zeljo -- my husband was
18 standing here. That's where they were (indicating).
19 They had freed this area here. It was all a matter of
20 seconds. They just turned round in a circle, the two
21 of them. My husband went in front of them, and Zeljo,
22 and Vlado Santic went behind him.
23 Q. How were these two men, Zeljo Livancic and
24 Vlado Santic, dressed that morning, as you recall now?
25 A. Yes. Yes, I remember. It was a camouflage
1 uniform with an HVO patch, and they had helmets.
2 Q. Did any of the other soldiers standing on
3 your veranda, or your porch, have helmets that
4 morning, as far as you can recall?
5 A. No, only those two. I saw those two, and
6 they were wearing helmets.
7 Q. Now, you say that these two men who were
8 wearing helmets, Vlado Santic and Zeljo Livancic, took
9 your husband. In which direction did you see them take
10 your husband? If you could point for us, just to show
11 us the direction in which they went.
12 A. I can just show you as much as I saw. My
13 glance went up to these -- I could see up to these
14 steps here. I call it the veranda. We had sort of a
15 plateau, a plate, and then an entrance door, and I was
16 on this plateau and that's where I saw my husband for
17 the last time. I never saw or heard of him again after
18 that moment.
19 Q. Could you take the marker in front you, and
20 with an arrow, show us the direction in which you saw
21 your husband go with those two men when you saw your
22 husband for the last time, just so that we know the
24 A. (Marks)
25 Q. Perhaps another marker would be better. Not
1 a pencil, but a marker.
2 A. (Marks)
3 Q. Could you put an arrow mark on it so we know
4 which direction you're referring to, using, again, the
5 blue marker. At the end of that line, yes.
6 A. (Marks)
7 Q. Now, what is the next thing you remember
8 seeing or hearing after you saw your husband being led
9 away in that direction?
10 A. I remember him saying, "Don't kill my wife
11 and children."
12 Q. That would be your husband who said that?
13 A. Yes, my husband said that; "Don't kill my
14 wife and children."
15 Q. Could I interrupt for one second? Do you
16 remember what your husband was wearing that morning?
17 A. Of course I do. Of course I remember. He
18 had a vest and short pants on. Of course I remember.
19 Q. Was he dressed in civilian clothes or in a
21 A. Who?
22 Q. Your husband.
23 A. My husband was sleeping, and he slept in his
24 under-vest, his underwear, his vest and short pants,
25 and that's how he got up, in his underwear. It all
1 happened in a matter of seconds. That's how he was
2 taken out and that's how he was killed. You can carry
3 out an identification.
4 Q. Did he have a weapon, your husband, when he
5 was taken away or when he went to the door that
7 A. No, no, no. We didn't have any weapons of
8 any kind, any arms of any kind. My husband worked on
9 the 15th of April, 1993, and he came back from work in
10 the evening, towards evening.
11 Q. Now, let's get back to what happened that
12 morning. When your husband was led away, what is the
13 next thing you remember seeing or hearing after that
15 A. The moment he was taken away, and this was
16 very fast, Drago Josipovic told me, "Go into that
17 corner, that corner over there, and we're going to
18 slaughter all of you," and that's the corner he meant,
19 this corner here (indicating). "You three go into that
20 corner, and we're going to cut your throats."
21 Q. Where was Drago Josipovic standing when you
22 heard him order you to go into the corner? Again, if
23 you could use your pointer to show us.
24 A. They were standing here. There
25 (indicating). When he was taken away, they drew closer
1 to me. I was ordered to go into this corner with my
2 children, and they said they would cut our throats.
3 Q. Did you go into the corner as you were told
4 to do?
5 A. Of course.
6 Q. Where were your children?
7 A. I kept a firm hold on my children. I never
8 let them go for one second. I kept this mechanical
9 hold on them. The moment that we had got up out of bed
10 and I got hold of them by the shoulder, I never let
11 them go until I had reached the shed over here.
12 Q. Could you take that marker in front of you
13 now and place the letter "B" where you and your
14 children went after you were told to go into the
15 corner, so that we can have this for the record and
16 refer to it later on.
17 Could you put the letter "B" there so we
18 know, when we read the record, that that is the second
19 position you were at that morning?
20 A. (Marks)
21 Q. While you were at that corner, position "B,"
22 which is on the veranda, what do you recall hearing or
23 seeing next?
24 A. I was passing here and my back was turned.
25 We came to this point and turned round. When I had
1 turned round, at that very second, there was only one
2 HVO soldier standing here, just one, and he looked at
3 me like this. This was Stipo Alilovic, nicknamed Brko.
4 Q. How long did you look at this Stipo Alilovic
5 at that moment?
6 A. Just for several seconds. It was a matter of
7 seconds. It wasn't slow motion. Everything occurred
8 in a matter of seconds. Everything they did, this
9 whole operation.
10 Q. What do you recall seeing or hearing next?
11 A. Perhaps a second or two or three, it's very
12 hard for me to tell the time, in one split second,
13 again a group of soldiers appeared. Stipo Alilovic
14 stood leaning against this wall at this first step.
15 Zeljo Livancic stood next to him. After him was Drago
16 Josipovic and Karlo Cerkez at that point. Then I spoke
17 up and I said, "People, what is this? What is going
18 on?" They were just staring at me. They didn't say a
19 word. They stared and stared and stared. This Brko,
20 Alilovic Stipo, held a bomb, a grenade, in this hand,
21 next to him was Zeljo, and he says this -- he was
22 staring, staring. They stood and stared, when I said,
23 "People, what is this? What is going on? Why is this
24 going on?" Stipo Alilovic came up and said, "What do I
25 do with the grenade?" he says to Zeljo. Zeljo looked
1 at us this way, looked at me, looked at my children.
2 I'm sorry, I apologise for using this word. He says,
3 "Out. Get lost."
4 Q. Who did he say that to, "Get lost" or "Out"?
5 A. To me and to my children.
6 Q. Who said that?
7 A. Zeljo Livancic.
8 Q. Who is Zeljo Livancic?
14 Q. When Zeljo Livancic ordered you to get out,
15 what did you do next?
16 A. As I was clutching my children, I started
17 walking this way, to this veranda, as we call it.
18 Q. Did you go down the stairs of the veranda?
19 A. Not all the stairs, you know. They stood
20 there, and, as I was holding my children, I walked out
21 this way and I went this way (indicating). One was
22 supposed to jump a bit, but I wasn't really very
23 careful at that point, so I took my children and we
24 went a bit to the other side -- or, rather, it is
25 direct, but, you know, they were standing there. So we
1 went out this way (indicating), and they were getting
2 into the house.
3 Q. Now, when you passed by the soldiers as you
4 were going down the veranda, did you look at them as
5 you walked past them?
6 A. I didn't, I didn't. I was holding my
7 children, and I just looked straight ahead of myself.
8 When I was crouching here with my children, that is
9 when we saw each other, and also when I said, "People,
10 what is this? What is going on? Why is this going
11 on?" as I was saying that, they remained silent. They
12 looked at each other. Then Stipo Alilovic asked what I
13 already told you about, what he'd do with the hand
14 grenade. Zeljo looked at me and the children and he
15 said, "Out. Get out."
16 Q. Now, earlier you had said that, when your
17 husband was taken away, Zeljo Livancic was one of the
18 two men that took him. Had he then returned to the
20 A. Yes, yes, yes. He came back. As he was
21 taken away and as they were ordering me to go here and
22 there and I crouched there with my children, when I
23 crouched there, only Stipo was there. In a moment,
24 they reappeared, and that was it.
25 Q. Now, what about the second man who took your
1 husband, Vlado Santic? At the time you were on the
2 veranda in position "B" and as you left the veranda,
3 had Vlado Santic returned or was he still not there?
4 A. He did not return then. He did not return
5 then. Only they came back, and I went out here
6 (indicating). This is where my mother stood who had
7 already been evicted from her house. She had been
8 wounded a bit. They had opened her house by shooting
9 at her door and shooting her door down and she had
10 burns on her face, and she was crouching there and she
11 watched our fate.
12 Q. Could you help us again and take the marker
13 and put a "C," the letter "C," where you went, you and
14 your children went after you were ordered to leave the
15 veranda, so that we know where you and your children
16 were next? The letter "C."
17 A. (Marks)
18 Q. That would be just near the room or the area
19 marked number 8 on the schematic of your house and
20 stables; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, yes, yes. This is where my children and
22 I were and my mother. Actually, I came with my
23 children to my mother as she had already been crouching
25 Q. Where had your mother been; do you know?
1 When you saw her at that position "C," where had she
2 been before?
3 A. Her house was right here, near mine.
4 Q. Right next door to your house?
5 A. Yes. My house was here and her house was
6 right here (indicating).
7 Q. Did your mother say anything to you when you
8 met her at position "C"?
9 A. When we came to her, bullets were flying all
10 over. We leaned hard against this wall here, and I
11 felt a soldier walking up, marching up, and as he
12 passed here, this part here (indicating), I raised my
13 head and I saw Mr. Santic, and I said, "Santic!
14 Santic! Vlado!" Vlado looked at me just like this,
15 and he jumped away from me, three metres away from me.
16 He jumped towards Zarko's house.
17 Q. Could you put a "V" where you saw and spoke
18 with Vlado Santic that morning so we know where that
20 A. (Marks)
21 Q. Now, which Vlado Santic are we talking about?
22 because there are several Vlado Santics in the area of
23 Vitez. Which Vlado Santic are you referring to --
24 A. Yes. I don't know what you are exactly
25 interested in. Vlado is here, whose father-in-law
1 lived below my house. That was a wonderful man, his
2 father-in-law, a very honest man. A truly good man,
3 you know, his father-in-law. He's the one.
4 And the other one, as far as I know, his wife
5 had a kiosk where they sold literature and cigarettes,
6 and I was in charge of the private sector at the Vitez
7 municipality, and when something was needed, Vlado
8 Santic, who was there, near my house, he would come to
9 take care of these matters.
10 Q. Do you know what position Vlado -- this Vlado
11 Santic had prior to the attack in Ahmici in 1993, what
12 his job was?
13 A. He was in the HVO police. I think he was
14 commander of the HVO police. My office was facing the
15 post office, the hotel, and I would often see him
16 passing along the street towards the hotel because I
17 also worked until the very last day.
18 Q. Could you describe what this Vlado Santic
19 looked like?
20 A. At that time, he was sort of a bigish lad
21 with a firm footstep, blond, a high forehead. Like
23 Q. Do you see him in the courtroom today?
24 A. Certainly, yes.
25 Q. Could you describe where he's sitting or what
1 he's wearing?
2 A. Yes. He's wearing a necktie, he's wearing a
3 jacket, a darker jacket, he has headphones on his
4 ears. Is that sufficient? A white shirt.
5 Q. Could you tell us a little more about his
6 facial appearance so that we know you're identifying --
7 A. Fair complexion, a fair complexion.
8 Q. What about hair?
9 A. He doesn't really have any.
10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the record reflect that
11 she has identified Vlado Santic.
12 Q. You have also talked about Drago Josipovic.
13 Do you see him here in the courtroom today?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you describe him please?
16 A. Yes. Yes. Mr. Drago is sitting behind this
17 pillar here. He has a moustache, white shirt and a
18 tie, and also a jacket like Vlado.
19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the record reflect that
20 she has identified Drago Josipovic.
21 A. Now that we're on the subject of Drago
22 Josipovic, can I say something else?
23 Q. Certainly.
24 A. Before the conflict, Mr. Drago Josipovic was
25 going home from work with Fahrudin Ahmic. They were
1 talking. As they came to our houses -- because our
2 houses were first by the road and then their houses --
3 Drago Josipovic told Fahrudin, "Pity for these two
4 houses down here." Fahrudin answered, "Drago, you say
5 what you know." Fahrudin swore a bit too, you know, he
6 said, "Drago, tell me, you know something." Fahrudin
7 came to us and he told us about that immediately. That
8 is what I wish to say.
9 Q. So you heard this --
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?
11 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I object to the
12 statement of this witness because this is hearsay. It
13 comes from another person because she is telling us
14 what another person told her.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, I think on at
16 least three occasions I have told you that in this
17 court we do admit hearsay evidence, and it is for the
18 Court to decide on the probative value of hearsay
20 You may go on.
21 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 A. I asked if I could say this, and this is
23 certainly the truth.
24 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
25 Q. Yes, Witness. And the Tribunal has allowed
1 you to say this.
2 I would like to just clarify something with
3 regard to this statement. This is a statement that you
4 heard from Fahrudin Ahmic. Which Fahrudin Ahmic are we
5 talking about? Where did he live and what happened to
7 A. He was a very nice man, very nice. He had
8 three children. (redacted)
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Perhaps it might be useful if
12 the witness could be shown the map, 273?
13 Q. Could you, using the pointer, just try to
14 find the house of Fahrudin Ahmic just so we know where
15 he lived?
16 A. The house of Fahrudin Ahmic is over here
17 (indicating). Here it is.
18 Q. Again, Drago Josipovic's house, if you could
19 show us where that is again?
20 A. It's right over here (indicating).
21 Q. So this Fahrudin Ahmic lived right next door
22 to the Josipovic house; is that right?
23 A. Yes, yes. They were nearby. The road
24 towards Hasim's house, that is Fahrudin's father, and
25 Fahrudin's house was the only thing that divided
1 Hasim's house and the house of the parents of Drago
2 Josipovic, and behind Drago Josipovic -- rather, it is
3 Drago Josipovic's parents and then Drago. That's the
4 way the houses went. Because there was one road that
5 led to Fahrudin's house and then there was Drago
6 Josipovic's parents' house, right over there.
10 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, I want to just take you back just for a
17 If we could go back to the diagram, usher,
19 As you were, and your children, as you were
20 walking to position "C," did you notice anything with
21 regard to the soldiers either on the veranda or
22 elsewhere, and now I'm talking about a time period in
23 between your leaving the veranda and arriving at
24 position "C," as you were walking towards position "C"?
25 A. These soldiers who were standing on the
1 steps, they all walked into the house at that point.
2 Q. Now, after you arrived at position "C," did
3 you speak with your mother, and if so, do you recall
4 what she told you?
5 A. When we came to her, she told me over there,
6 "Two men in helmets took Muzafer away." That was all;
7 we didn't speak any more. Because bullets were flying
8 all over, we leaned against this wall, as I was holding
9 my children; she was here; and I said, "Mama, let's go
10 into the shed." "Okay." Although that was no
11 guarantee for our lives. But, you know, a person
12 thinks that he can save himself that way at such
13 moments, so we walked into this shed.
14 I placed my children here in front of me
15 (indicating) and we were huddling, and there were some
16 wooden boards here, and I was there behind my children
17 and behind me was my mother. Then I put my hands on
18 their heads, like this, and I was clutching them all
19 the time.
20 Q. Could you, with the marker, place the letter
21 "D" to show us now the fourth position that you and
22 your children, and now mother, were in that morning so
23 that we can refer to it in future?
24 A. (Marks)
25 Q. If you could place the letter "D" so it's not
1 so small that we can't read it? Just to symbolise
2 where you were.
3 A. (Marks)
4 Q. Now, while you were at this position "D,"
5 which is in the room marked 7 on the schematic, could
6 you see out of that room or was there a door blocking
7 your view?
8 A. No, I could see. This shed didn't have a
9 door. The door was next to the window, but then it
10 didn't have a window either. We had bought a window
11 and a door, but they remained in the garage. So I
12 could see, let's say, this area (indicating). Over
13 here, I could only see this area, the corner of this
14 house, that. But here, I had a better view, on the
15 left-hand side.
16 Q. Now, you had said that you noticed some of
17 the soldiers going into your house, the soldiers who
18 were on the veranda. Did you --
19 A. Right.
20 Q. -- see any other soldiers in the vicinity of
21 your house at this time, either in the garden or in the
22 yard or on the road?
23 A. Yes. Over here, in this area, yes. Over
24 here (indicating). That's where the window is. Here.
25 Q. So that would be near the corner of your
1 house on the upper right-hand side as we look at this
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Could you recognise any --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you recognise any of those soldiers?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, what is the next thing you remember
9 seeing or hearing as you and your children and mother
10 were in position "D"?
11 A. When we were sitting there and while I was
12 holding my children's heads -- I don't know. I can't
13 really tell the time because there was no way I could
14 tell the time. Some minutes went on forever and
15 others -- I don't know.
16 So I saw soldiers jumping out of here and
17 they were moving in this direction, towards Zarko's
19 Q. Now, when you say you saw soldiers jumping
20 out of "here," what do you mean by "here"? Could you
21 describe where you saw soldiers as they jumped?
22 A. Could you please repeat your question?
23 Q. Tell us where you saw the soldiers when they
24 were jumping. Where were they?
25 A. I heard the thump when they jumped, like
1 this, and they were passing by here, in front. Here
2 (indicating). In front of the door and the window
3 where we were crouching, you know, like I'm crouching
4 here, and they're passing here, right in front.
5 Q. Just to make it clear for the record, and
6 correct me if I'm wrong, but you heard soldiers
7 jumping, basically, off your veranda; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, you heard them jumping. Did you see
10 them as they left your house, or did you just hear
12 A. I heard them and I saw them. I heard them
13 and I saw them.
14 Q. Now --
15 A. Because they were walking here, this way
16 (indicating). I could see them. I didn't lift my
17 head, but -- I was afraid, but I saw these soldiers
18 jumping out and passing by.
19 Q. Now, at that moment, did you recognise any of
20 those soldiers as they passed by or jumped out of your
22 A. I wasn't watching their faces then.
23 Q. What is the next thing you recall? and now
24 I'm specifically drawing your attention to your house
25 after these soldiers passed by and left your house.
1 A. It all became quiet. No one was walking.
2 You couldn't hear anyone. Silence. I felt smoke
3 coming from my house, and I told my mama, I said,
4 "Mama, the house is on fire." I felt this smoke
5 getting out. I saw smoke from the terrace passing
6 here. Lots of smoke.
7 Since I couldn't hear anyone and I didn't see
8 anyone, I tried to save my house. My mother did too.
9 I said already that in this area, I had a storage space
10 covered in ceramic tiles. It also had running water, a
11 faucet. At that tap, I kept a hose, 20 or 30 metres
12 long, and that is how I tended my cows, because I had
13 two cows. Also the garden, the yard, et cetera.
14 So this hose was over there at the tap. At
15 that moment, I left my children, and mama, and I ran
16 into the house. I rushed into the storage space, I
17 grabbed this hose, I opened the water, and I went into
18 this hallway, I went into the living room, and I tried
19 to extinguish the fire with this hose.
20 The house had a staircase too and there was a
21 lot of wood, and also there was -- there were carpets,
22 woollen carpets, and I kept trying to extinguish the
23 fire with this water, we managed to do so, and then I
24 went back there and joined my children.
25 Q. After, you joined your children and your
1 mother back at position "D"; is that correct?
2 A. No, no, I'm sorry. My mother was with me,
3 together with me. Together we were trying to
4 extinguish the fire and the children were alone. We
5 left the children on their own while we were trying to
6 extinguish the fire in the house, and then the two of
7 us came back.
8 Q. You were successful in extinguishing the
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Then what happened?
12 A. After a short time they came with inflammable
13 bullets from the direction of Zarko's house, and
14 unfortunately, my house was once again set fire to. It
15 started burning, and I said to my mother, "We shouldn't
16 go out again. We can't do anything this time. They
17 can wound us with a bullet, they can hit us. My
18 children are here." And so my mother said, "All
19 right. We'll stay."
20 Q. Now, if you can just remove the diagram
21 that's in front of you and go to the map and show us
22 where Zarko's house is so we know what you mean when
23 you say the bullets came from Zarko's direction. You
24 can use the pointer to show us Zarko's house.
25 A. Zarko's house is this (indicating). From
1 this direction -- the bullets came from that direction,
2 hitting my house again and setting it on fire.
3 Q. What is the next thing you recall?
4 A. We were in the shed. We waited for our
5 fate. My house was ablaze. Some parts had already
6 begun to cave in.
7 I looked at the house that belongs to Ramiz
8 Ahmic and his sons, and Ramiz Ahmic had annexes. He
9 was a rich man, so he had auxiliary buildings around
10 his house. I said to my mother, "There's -- I'm happy
11 to see that Ramiz's house is not on fire. He might
12 give us a room to save ourselves and to shelter there
13 until we find somewhere to go, because our house is
14 completely destroyed. But never mind, we'll put this
15 in order, this part here that's left, and we'll be able
16 to live there." But houses were not on fire, they were
17 intact, whereas my house was completely ablaze. I look
18 at their houses and I was very happy to see that they
19 were not alight.
20 Q. Could you, on that map in front of you, point
21 to Ramiz's house?
22 A. Yes. You just told me to point, to indicate
23 Ramiz's house. This is Ramiz Ahmic's house
25 Q. From where you were at position "D", could
1 you see Ramiz's house well or was it obstructed?
2 A. No, I could see it well. It's an open
3 space. There's nothing to obstruct my view, so I could
4 see his house directly from where I stood, and his
5 whole entire property, and Nazif's as well.
6 Q. What did you see then, or hear?
7 A. After some time had elapsed, I heard, along
8 this path here, from the direction of Zarko's house,
9 there was thumping, the thump of footsteps could be
10 heard, and I heard Ivanka talking, but I don't know who
11 she was talking to. Then perhaps one, two, three
12 minutes later I saw, from this direction where I was
13 standing, I saw a group of soldiers passing by the
14 road, the path up there, and they left. I don't know
15 where they went.
16 Q. Could you replace that diagram on the machine
17 next to you so we can see where you were pointing,
18 because we couldn't see it as you were pointing now.
19 Perhaps the usher can assist.
20 A. What do you want me to show you?
21 Q. Could you show us where you heard the
22 soldiers pass by? What road were they on and in what
23 direction were they going?
24 A. They were here, from the direction of Zarko's
25 house, and they went in this direction (indicating).
1 Q. You've indicated that with an arrow along the
2 right-hand side of the diagram; is that right?
3 A. Yes, yes. They were going up to the main
4 road leading to the other road.
5 Q. Did you recognise any of those soldiers?
6 A. On that occasion?
7 Q. On that occasion, yes.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned hearing the voice of
10 Ivanka. Who is Ivanka?
12 Q. Did you see her or did you just hear her
14 A. I just heard her. I didn't see her, couldn't
15 see her, just heard her.
16 Q. After the soldiers passed, did you hear
17 anything coming from the houses of Nazif or Ramiz?
18 A. When they passed this way and after several
19 minutes, I saw here, in this direction, a group of
20 soldiers in this part here (indicating). They had
21 passed by, but I couldn't see where they had gone to
22 from where I was standing.
23 Then as I kept looking at their houses, I saw
24 that in this way, as I'm showing you now, a group of
25 soldiers went towards Ramiz's house, that is to say
1 they came to the shed first, and below the shed is the
2 manure, it was all concrete cement, and they went
3 towards that part. One portion went down into the
4 place where the manure is stored, the others went by
5 the shed or whatever it was, and then I heard voices,
6 "Come out you balijas so that we can cut your
7 throats. Come out you balijas, we're going to
8 slaughter you."
9 The soldiers went further upwards, and I
10 could no longer see them because they were moving up
11 towards the front of the house, because the house and
12 the shed is there. They entered the yard and I
13 couldn't see them anymore, but I heard them.
14 Before that, I heard Nazif's wife's voice,
15 and there was a sort of struggle, a fight, and then the
16 voice disappeared. I heard Ramiz shouting, "What's up
17 people? What's up? What do you want? What is all
18 this? What's happening?" I didn't hear the soldiers
19 anymore, but I did hear Ramiz, in a very sad voice
20 saying, "Wife, come out. Let them see you. Let them
21 see you. Come out." Those were the last voices that I
22 heard. I didn't hear Ramiz anymore, and I didn't hear
23 anything anymore of that incident.
24 Later on, I saw, on the lower floor of the
25 house, one of Ramiz's rooms on fire. I could see
1 flames and smoke, and, of course, the flames spread.
2 Q. Were you in a position to be able to identify
3 or recognise any of those soldiers?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Now, how long did you stay at position "D"?
6 A. The whole day.
7 Q. When did you leave position "D", do you
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. How did that come about?
11 A. I left towards evening. It wasn't very dark
12 yet but it was dusk. As in the course of the day, Jozo
13 Livancic had come up to us. I don't know how he came.
14 I didn't see -- I saw him. He sort of had some rubber
15 soles or something, because he was quite silent. We
16 didn't hear him come up, we just saw him.
17 He came up to us and looked at us like this
18 (indicating), up to the door that was free, and he saw
19 me and my mother sitting on the plank and saw our
20 children with us, and he just left.
21 My mother called out to him. She said,
22 "Jozo, Jozo," but he didn't respond. He didn't want
23 to turn around at all or say anything.
24 Q. Now, tell us who Jozo Livancic is.
25 A. He is the father of Zeljo Livancic.
1 Q. By the way, that position "D" in the toolshed
2 marked number 7, during the day, did you or your mother
3 do anything to attempt to provide yourselves with some
4 additional protection, and I'm referring specifically
5 to the doorway.
6 A. Yes, yes, yes, I did, because when Jozo
7 Livancic had left, not much time had gone by. From
8 this corner here, a bullet hit directly here
9 (indicating). I stood there and God saved me, nobody
10 else. My hair was singed, and the bullet hit the wall
11 where the cows were. I crouched down again in fear,
12 waiting to see if there would be another one that would
13 follow it. There was nothing. A silence, a lull.
14 Then as we were in the toolshed and we had
15 some tools from the car and car tires, I placed planks
16 against the window and then lifted the part of the car,
17 the hub of the car, and I kept it up as protection
18 against the windows so that they should not hit my
19 children. I was only frightened that something would
20 happen to my children or my mother. By the door I
21 placed another plank. I held all this material in this
22 position, and I stayed there holding everything up
23 until Josip -- Jozo Livancic and Drago Papic came to
24 that place.
25 Q. This would have been just before dark on that
2 A. Yes. The 16th of April.
3 Q. Now, during the course of the day, while you
4 were in position "D", did you ever look around your
5 house to see where your husband might be?
6 A. No. No, I just had this view of the front
7 part of the house. But I kept saying to myself -- I
8 kept consoling myself, and I lived in the hope that my
9 neighbours had taken my husband prisoner. That's what
10 I said to myself. Nobody told me that, I just said
11 this to myself to give me strength and to console
13 Q. Now, during the course of the day while you
14 were in position "D", did you hear any shooting or any
15 other sounds that you can describe?
16 A. There was the shooting the whole day. There
17 was shelling the whole day. Shooting throughout the
18 day, grenades, mortars.
19 Q. Now, I think you said just a moment ago that
20 towards evening some people came to the shed. Could
21 you tell us who those people were who came to the shed,
22 that is position "D"?
23 A. They didn't come into the shed, they came in
24 front of the shed, to the shed, and they were Drago
25 Josipovic, in full military gear; Papic Drago, once
1 again full military gear; and Jozo Livancic, also in
2 full military gear.
3 Q. Now, you mentioned "Papic." Which Papic was
5 A. There were two. No. One is Drago. Papic
6 Anto is an elderly man. He's well-built, tall, and he
7 used to live below the house of Ramic Kijazim, along
8 that way.
9 Q. Was the elderly man, the elderly Papic, was
10 he the one that was at the toolshed that evening?
11 A. All three of them were standing like this in
12 the same position. All three of them stood in front of
13 my shed.
14 Q. Did you have any difficulty recognising Drago
15 Josipovic as one of those three men who was standing in
16 front of your shed?
17 A. I recognised all three of them. They're all
18 neighbours. They were not unknown men.
19 Q. What happened when they came to the shed,
20 just outside the shed?
21 A. They called out to me (redacted) come out,
22 come out. Come out." I said, "I don't dare come out.
23 My children are here," I said. So he said, "Come out,
24 all of you," and we had to go out.
25 Q. What happened when you, your children and
1 your mother came out, exited the shed?
2 A. Drago Josipovic told me, "Your shed is going
3 to be set afire now." I said, "All right. Just leave
4 my cows. Let them out so that they're not burnt
6 Q. What did Drago Josipovic then do?
7 A. We had a big hammer, and he cut off the lock
8 of the door to the cow shed. He bashed the door down
9 and he let the cows go out of the shed.
10 Q. So that was, in fact, an act of some kindness
11 towards the animals?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. Then where did you and your mother and
14 children go? Before you answer, please hold on.
15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Moskowitz, could we clarify
16 which of the Papic's it was?
17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Certainly. I would be happy
18 to do it or the Court can.
19 JUDGE MAY: You do it.
20 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
21 Q. Let's be absolutely clear, witness. Could
22 you describe the Papic who was at your toolshed that
23 evening with the other two men, Drago Josipovic and
24 Jozo Livancic?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. About how old was this man, this Papic?
2 A. An elderly man. Perhaps about 60.
3 JUDGE MAY: The reference is to Anto,
4 clearly, not Dragan.
5 A. I don't know exactly, but I suppose that he
6 is about 60 years old.
7 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
8 Q. Do you know --
9 A. Perhaps he's a year or two older, but
11 Q. Do you know this man's first name?
12 A. Anto Papic.
13 Q. Now, could you tell us what your family did
14 after the cows were released by Drago Josipovic?
15 A. They then said to us the following: "Go into
16 the house down there," that is to say, Anto Papic's
17 house, "there are some more Muslims down there."
18 Q. Did you, in fact, go to Anto Papic's house
19 that evening?
20 A. I told them that I didn't dare go, because I
21 had seen terrible things happen, and I told them, "I
22 don't dare go. You come with us."
23 Q. Then what happened?
24 A. They said, "All right." We were wearing
25 pyjamas, we were barefoot, and they went along with us
1 towards the house of Anto Papic.
2 Q. Did you put any kind of clothing on that you
3 found in the toolshed before you left?
4 A. Well, yes. I put on some of my late
5 husband's old trousers, his work trousers. He used
6 them for work when he was in the toolshed. I had an
7 old jumper which I used when I went to milk the cows.
8 That's what I put on, and that's what I wore when I
9 left. The children didn't put anything else on, they
10 left as they were.
11 Q. Now, could you, perhaps with the assistance
12 of the usher, again, look at the map and show us the
13 direction that you took to go to Anto Papic's house
14 that evening? You can use the pointer, I think, to
15 show the route.
16 A. When we left my shed here, we took this route
17 (indicating). We crossed over here. There was a small
18 concrete wall. We went along this path up to Zarko's
19 house, and then past Zarko's house further on to this
20 road here, and we went along the road this way, and
21 arrived at the house of Anto Papic. It was here.
22 Q. For future reference, could you help us again
23 by taking the marker and drawing a line showing your
24 route from the house, your house -- or your shed, to
25 the house of Anto Papic? You could take the diagram
1 off the maps while you're doing that so it's easier for
2 you to draw.
3 A. Do you mean across this -- on this map here?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Which colour shall I use, red?
6 Q. I think red would show up best. Perhaps the
7 usher could help with the handling of the diagram.
8 A. Very well. (Marks)
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. You're welcome.
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I would ask the usher to show
12 the witness the next exhibit for the Prosecution.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 276.
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
15 Q. This is a photograph that we call Exhibit
16 276. Witness, could you identify that for us, please?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Whose house is that?
19 A. That is the house of Mr. Papic Anto.
20 Q. That would be the house that has the letter
21 "F" over it; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. There's a path that we see in front of the
24 picture. Is that the path that you and your family
25 took that evening when you went to Anto Papic's house?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you entered this house, who did you see
3 there, if anyone?
4 A. I really did see a lot of Muslims.
5 Q. Were these women, and children and men?
6 A. Yes, there were women, there were children
7 and there were men as well.
8 Q. Did you see anyone you knew and can tell us
10 A. Of the Muslims, you mean?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who did you see there that you recognised?
14 A. I recognised them all.
15 Q. Did you speak with any of them and did they
16 tell you anything?
17 A. When I went into the house (redacted)
18 they were all very sad. They were all crying(redacted)
19 cried aloud, and she said, (redacted)
20 (redacted) and you know that your husband has been
21 killed as well." That's what she said.
22 Q. Did you at that time know that your husband
23 had been killed, in fact?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. How did you know that?
1 A. Drago Josipovic told(redacted) that, and Drago
2 Josipovic told me, when I was in front of the shed, in
3 this kind of tone, "Ah (redacted)has been killed too".
4 Q. Did you stay overnight at Anto Papic's house?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was anyone taking care of the children at
7 Anto Papic's house?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was that?
10 A. It was the wife of Anto Papic.
11 Q. Did you see how she was taking care of the
13 A. Well, you know what? There were a lot of
14 cows belonging to the Muslims. They all came to the
15 yard. There were a lot of cows, and my cows were there
16 too. I asked whether I could go out to milk my cows to
17 give my children some milk and to drink some milk
18 myself and then what's left could be shared by the
19 others, and they said, "Yes, you can." That's what I
20 did. They milked the cows too. They cooked the milk
21 and they gave the children milk to drink and anybody
22 else who wanted to drink, although all of us who knew
23 what was going on and who had seen what was going on,
24 we didn't really feel like eating, and the lady brought
25 some other food which she offered to the children, she
1 gave them some other food as well, yes.
2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I note the time, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Do you have many more
5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I have several questions plus
6 a short video, so it may be appropriate to take a
8 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we will
9 adjourn now for 30 minutes.
10 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz, we will go on,
13 continuing in open session, I assume.
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour.
15 (The witness entered court)
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
17 Q. Now, Madam, we will continue where we left
18 off, and that is at the house of Anto Papic.
19 While you were at the house of Anto Papic,
20 did there come a time that several of the Muslim men
21 were asked to do something, and if so, could you tell
22 us what?
23 A. I did not understand the question.
24 Q. While you and your family were at the house
25 of Anto Papic, you stated that there were several
1 Muslim families also at the house of Anto Papic. Did
2 there come a time that some of these Muslim men were
3 asked to leave the house to do something?
4 A. The same day, on the 16th of April, you
5 mean? In the evening, towards dusk, when we had
6 arrived; is that what you're asking me about?
7 Q. At any time during your stay at the Papic
9 A. That the men, the Muslims, asked to do
10 something, that they should do something or ...
11 Q. Let me ask you this: While you were at the
12 Anto Papic house, did you see any of your Croatian
13 neighbours there?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who did you see?
16 A. I saw Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic in front
17 of us, as soon as we arrived. Livancic Jozo was there
18 too, but I didn't see him after that.
19 Q. The next day, did you see any additional
20 Croatian neighbours at or near the Anto Papic house?
21 A. The following day --
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. -- when dawn broke, yes. There was a window
24 in the room, and I saw in the yard Nenad Santic. There
25 were other soldiers there as well of the HVO.
1 Q. Could you tell us who Nenad Santic was?
2 A. He was a company commander, captain in the
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Again, with the assistance of
5 the usher, could the usher have the witness look at the
6 map of Ahmici, which is 273.
7 Q. Would you point to the house of Nenad Santic,
8 if you can find it there?
9 A. May I pick up the photograph to have a better
11 Q. Yes, of course.
12 A. Nenad Santic's house, you enter it this way
13 (indicating). There it is. That's where it stands.
14 Q. Nenad Santic, is he related to any of the
15 individuals that you have already mentioned in your
16 testimony today?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who is he related to?
19 A. He is related to Drago Josipovic.
20 Q. What is that relationship?
21 A. Drago Josipovic's wife Slavica is Nenad
22 Santic's sister.
23 Q. Do you know whether or not Slavica belonged
24 to the HVO?
25 A. She dealt with that sort of thing a great
1 deal, and on one occasion, when we went to work, as the
2 buses were not working, we waited at the bus stop to
3 get somebody to take us to work, and without thinking
4 anything bad, I had the best intentions, I wanted to
5 get in her car, but she pushed me away from the
6 doorway, and she says, "You balija can't come in
7 here." She took in an elderly woman, a cleaning woman,
8 in Vitez, she worked in a work organisation, and she
9 invited her into the car, and she said, "She can come
10 in, but not you." So I stayed at the bus stop alone.
11 Q. Now, you said you saw Nenad Santic in the
12 Anto Papic yard.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What do you recall of what he did or said
15 that day?
16 A. I did not hear what he said. He was outside
17 with his soldiers, but from amongst them, Anto Papic
18 went into the house straightaway, and he said the
19 following: That the men should get up and go and pick
20 up our dead.
21 Q. Did the men, the Muslim men, do that? Did
22 they leave the house, the Anto Papic house?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Did those Muslim men return?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Several hours later?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Would you tell us when and how you and your
4 family left the Anto Papic house?
5 A. When the people who went to pick up the dead
6 returned -- I can't tell you exactly what time it was,
7 whether it was 11.00 or what the time was but somewhere
8 in that region -- when they returned, Anto Papic said
9 that Nenad, that Nenad had said -- this is what Anto
10 Papic said: "Nenad has ordered you to go to Zume. A
11 bus will be waiting for you there to take you to
13 Q. Then did you and the others leave the Anto
14 Papic house as you were ordered?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Where did you go?
17 A. We went up towards the main asphalt road
18 leading to Travnik, towards Vitez. That is to say,
19 towards the main road going to Vitez.
20 Q. When you reached the main road, did you see
22 A. At the very exit where this road ends, I saw
23 a tank go by. We asked assistance from the tank. This
24 is what -- we made signs to the tank to stop, and the
25 tank stopped.
1 As we don't know -- can't speak English or
2 German, he asked us something, we didn't understand
3 him, but we asked assistance, we asked them to evacuate
4 us from that spot, but we weren't able to make
5 ourselves understood. Then one soldier from within the
6 tank got out of the tank and told us -- and I'll get
7 up, if I may? I apologise for doing so, but I would
8 like to show you. He said, "Has the HVO taken you
9 all?" And we said "Yes." We thought that these people
10 would help us. Unfortunately, they didn't help us.
11 The tank moved on and we followed it as fast
12 as we could. When it was between Drago Josipovic's
13 house and another house, there's an open space there,
14 Drago Josipovic was standing there and Anto Papic was
15 standing there as well, and this soldier from the tank
16 beckoned to them, to the two of them, to come up to
17 him. This is the sign he made (indicating). Drago
18 Josipovic and Anto Papic went up to the soldier --
19 there's a little fence there. This is the road. We
20 were standing on the road by the tank. There's a small
21 hedge there. The two of them went up to this hedge.
22 Anto Papic could speak German because he received some
23 money from Germany by way of rent, it was a sort of
24 pension, a pension that he received from Germany -- I
25 used to make up the papers for him -- so he spoke
1 German. They said something, but we couldn't
2 understand what they were saying.
3 We saw, at the end of their conversation,
4 that the tank had left us; that is, they withdrew --
5 the two of them withdrew to where they were before.
6 The tank left, and we were left standing in the road
7 alone stranded.
8 We moved in the direction of Zume, as Nenad
9 had ordered, thinking that a bus would be waiting for
10 us there. Unfortunately, what waited for us was the
12 We walked along the road, and then we turned
13 to the right past Vidosevic Anto's house, there is a
14 path going that way, and in that road, there is a row
15 of houses along that path, and they took us in in one
16 of those houses. That's it.
17 Q. Just to clarify your testimony a little bit.
18 Could you look at that Exhibit 273, which is the blow-up
19 and, using the pointer, show us the route you took that
20 day from Anto Papic's house to the house where you
21 ended up?
22 A. When we came out this way, we met the tank,
23 and I told you what we asked. The tank moved forward,
24 and we followed it this way. The tank stopped here.
25 We were all standing around. He called to the two of
1 them, and they were standing here in this part. They
2 came up to the soldier, talked to him in German. When
3 they had finished their conversation -- I don't know
4 what conclusion they had come to -- but the tank left
5 us standing there without giving us any explanation
7 We stayed standing there alone, and then we
8 walked up the road this way and we came to this point
9 here (indicating). Just let me study the map, if I
10 may, for one second? Yes, that's all right. As I say,
11 we came to this corner here where we turned right, and
12 we were taken into one of these houses. I don't know
13 which one. This is a new house, it belongs to Ivo
14 Vidovic, and the two here, I don't really remember
15 which house we were placed in because I was busy
16 thinking about other things. I had other things on my
18 Q. Now, again with the --
19 A. But they placed us in one of those houses.
20 Q. Thank you. With the help of the usher,
21 perhaps you could take the green marker and draw a line
22 from Anto Papic's house to the house you arrived at,
23 showing the route you took to get from Anto Papic's
24 house to that house in Santici?
25 A. Anto Papic's house to their so-called -- I
1 don't know. They had some kind of headquarters, the
2 HVO, over there. It used to be a store. But at that
3 time it wasn't a store. That is where they were
4 staying. So from Anto Papic's house all the way up to
5 this place where they were staying, right?
6 Q. Yes, if you could, please?
7 A. (Marks). I don't know where we were taken in
8 exactly, whether in one or the other house, but it was
10 Q. Could you put an "X" where you saw Anto Papic
11 and Drago Josipovic speaking to the tank driver?
12 A. Yes. (Marks) That's where they were. They
13 came up to this point here, and they were standing
14 there when he beckoned to them and when he asked them
15 to come up to him. This is a hedge and this is the
16 asphalt road.
17 Q. Were Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic in a
18 uniform at the time or in uniforms at that time?
19 A. Yes, and with weapons.
20 Q. Now, as you walked down to that HVO
21 headquarters, as you called it, that shop in Santici,
22 could you see the condition of the village of Ahmici
23 from the road as you walked?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you describe what you saw?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did you see?
3 A. I saw that the Muslim houses had all been
4 burnt. Only the roof to Fahrudin Ahmic's house was
5 intact at that time. Everything else had been burnt.
6 Q. Now, when you entered the house in Santici,
7 the HVO headquarters, what did you see there?
8 A. We saw the room, there was some vinyl tiles
9 on the floor, and the Muslims went into the room. They
10 were full of fear. There were boys there, little --
11 bigger boys. (redacted)
12 (redacted) and that my other neighbours,
13 the men, had been killed, and the wives were in that
14 room. All of us were sad. Everybody was crying. Some
15 people were sitting round the wall. We all sat down on
16 the floor. We were too tired and weary and didn't feel
17 like anything.
18 Q. Did something happen while you were there,
19 something that you recall?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell us about that. What happened?
22 A. Two HVO soldiers entered the room. They had
23 the black socks over their heads with just slits for
24 the eyes. All you could see were their eyes. One of
25 them was fairly tall, the other one was a little
1 shorter in build, and as we knew him personally, we
2 concluded that it was Nikica Plavcic. We called him
3 "Nikica Slikica," slikica being a picture, and he was
4 a photographer, in fact.
5 The tall one entered the room where we were
6 located. I'm going to show you -- I apologise, but I'm
7 going to demonstrate how this went -- he entered the
8 room and he looked around, like this.
10 (redacted) he said, "You, you, you, you, you, letís
11 go."(redacted) and she said
12 "Please don't take him away. He has a bad kidney and
13 he has to have dialysis. Please don't take him away."
14 "Don't worry about that," they said, "He'll be cured
15 very quickly." Ramic Zenur, his brother Amir, and
16 Mr. Engineer Heleg Munib went out.
17 A little boy from Loncari, he was fairly tall
18 and thin, he managed, as the door was here and the
19 women had lined up against this door, when he left, he
20 hid behind the women and crouched down. That's how he
21 stayed. He stayed alive by crouching and hiding behind
22 the line of women.
23 Fahrudin's father, Hasim, Munib Heleg got up
24 and the two brothers, they left following them. They
25 went in the direction of Slamo, the late Slamo, Mujo
1 Dedic, Fariz, Siljak -- I'll remember his name in a
2 little while -- but that's where they were taken.
3 Nobody knows what happened to them.
4 Q. Did Hasim and the other Muslim men who were
5 taken, did they return at any time?
6 A. No, never.
7 Q. Did (redacted), ever find out what
8 happened to her husband, (redacted)?
9 A. Since we were imprisoned there, there were
10 babies, and we tried to ask UNPROFOR for help because
11 UNPROFOR was going up and down this road. Women with
12 small babies would go out when this UNPROFOR would come
14 door. I was next to her. There were more of us
15 there. We were waiting for some kind of help.
16 After some time, Nikica Plavcic came, and the
17 women asked him, "Please, don't you see that we have
18 babies? The babies are hungry. Can you do something?
19 Can you have us evacuated?" He looked at us and he
20 said, "Well, let her go there to the road." He was
21 pointing at me. He said, "She can stop a vehicle and
22 you can go." I said, "I didn't bring anyone here, and
23 it is not up to me to stop UNPROFOR."
24 (redacted) asked him, "Nikica, please. Where is
25 my (redacted)? Please tell me. Where did they go?" He
1 said, "Don't worry. They were taken to Busovaca."
2 Again, a bit of time went by, and again
3 (redacted) said "Nikica, please, tell me where is my
4 (redacted) Please." He said, "Well, heíll come (redacted)
5 (redacted)was impatient. She was on very good terms with
6 his late mother, Nikica's late mother. "Nikica,
7 please." His mother had died of cancer. "Nikica,
8 please, I beseech you, in the name of your dead
9 mother. You know that we were very good friends. Tell
10 me, where is my (redacted)." He looked at her and said,
11 "Orders were issued and they were all killed." Then
12 we withdrew and sat on those plastic tiles down there.
13 Q. Where were you taken -- let me ask you this:
14 How long did you spend at that house in Santici?
15 A. Well, we were brought there on the 17th. I
16 think it was around noon. That was a Saturday. We
17 spent the night there, the night between Saturday and
18 Sunday, that is.
19 Q. How did it come about that you left that
20 house and where did you go?
21 A. In the morning, they were discussing
22 something amongst themselves, I don't know what they
23 were talking about, but at any rate, they told us
24 again, "Go to the station and you'll go to Zenica."
25 Q. Before we leave that house, let me ask you
1 just a couple more questions. Do you know a man by the
2 name of Abdulah Ahmic?
3 A. Yes, certainly.
4 Q. Did you see him at that house in Santici
5 while you were there?
6 A. Yes, he came there.
7 Q. What did he look like when you saw him there?
8 A. Terrible. Terrible. He looked terrible.
9 Q. Could you be more specific? What did you see
10 with regard to any injuries?
11 A. Yes, he came and he was sitting right in
12 front of me. He was all dirty. His head was stained
13 by blood a bit and his head was swollen. He was a
14 sight, really. He looked terrible.
15 Q. Did you see any children who were not
16 accompanied by parents or adults?
17 A. Yes, yes, yes. (redacted)
20 Q. Do you know the Zec family?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you see any member of the Zec family at
23 that house?
24 A. Yes, the little Melisa. Melisa is her name.
25 A pretty little girl, pretty. She was there, not her
2 Q. You say her brother was not there with her?
3 A. Yes, he was not there with us.
4 Q. Now, where did you and the others go when you
5 left the house on Sunday?
6 A. Where we went, is that what you're saying?
7 Would you please repeat your question?
8 Q. Yes. Where did you go when you left the
9 house on Sunday, you and the others?
10 A. We went to the railway station, we call it
11 the Kompanija, and they put us up at the school in
13 Q. By "they" do you mean the HVO?
14 A. Yes. Certainly, yes. They were the ones who
15 commanded us.
16 Q. How did you get from the house to the
17 Dubravica school?
18 A. On foot.
19 Q. How long did you spend at the Dubravica
21 A. Until the 1st of May.
22 Q. Do you remember how you were released from
23 the Dubravica school?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell us how that happened.
1 A. A girl came from Geneva, a pretty girl, she
2 had a braid. Also an interpreter called Alma. They
3 came one day, and we thought that all of us would get
4 out, that we would leave the camp. Unfortunately, we
5 received the news that we couldn't, that we would be
6 staying there. What the reason was for that I do not
7 know. I do know that on the next day, Alma, this
8 interpreter, showed up again, a blonde girl, pretty,
9 with freckles on her face. She said, "Today you will
10 be getting out of here," and we were happy, of course.
11 Q. Do you recall whether or not any of this was
12 videotaped or put on a camera?
13 A. Oh, yes, yes. When we were supposed to get
14 out, we were supposed to give them some kind of
15 signatures. I was staying in this room with my mother
16 and my children, and I was the first one there. The
17 door was there and then I was right next to the door,
18 and next to me was a refugee from Prijedor, and also an
19 old Granny with her daughter and her granddaughter.
20 Her sons had also been killed.
21 When they came in and asked for us to come
22 and give these signatures, we were the first to go, my
23 children, my mother and I, and we were afraid. I
24 didn't know where we were going.
25 They said, "Come along," and we followed
1 them. We walked into a room. There was a table there,
2 and Ivanka Miskovic was sitting there. She had a
3 typewriter, and she was a typist. She worked in
4 Veternica. We knew each other very well, but that
5 morning she didn't know me. She asked me what my name
6 was, what my children's names were, what my mother's
7 name was, things like that. We did that.
8 By her was Nikica Plavcic, like this. Brown
9 hair, pretty tall. He wasn't fat. Sort of elegant.
10 In a HVO uniform. When I signed this paper he said to
11 me, "Madam, you can go to your home now, there's no
12 problem whatsoever." I said to him, "Sir, you killed
13 all of my own. You burned down everything of my own
14 and now you're sending me home." "Just a minute, let
15 me see what we're going to do with such cases." He
16 went out.
17 When he came back, I think that there were
18 some American journalists there with him. I don't know
19 if there were three -- there were three of them there.
20 I don't know. I saw cameras. I saw them, a blonde
21 lady, kind and nice. They walked in and they started
22 filming us straightaway.
23 My daughter started to cry. She asked me how
24 I felt at the camp, and I answered to her, "Madam, you
25 know what it's like in a camp. A camp is a camp. I'm
1 allergic to dust and look at me, I'm all in blisters.
2 Look." I said, "I don't want to talk about the food
3 and all the details." Mr. Plavcic said, "What do you
4 mean? We treated you nicely." I said, "No. No way.
5 You didn't treat us to anything. What you treated us
6 to were the food that Muslims from Novaci, above the
7 school, brought to us," and they allowed them to bring
8 it in because there were babies, there were a lot of
9 people there, there were men, women, elderly people,
10 people who were weak, and these people really did their
11 best to send things to us. We would get something, my
12 mother and I, but we gave it to my children so that
13 they could survive.
14 Q. At this time I would ask if we could view the
15 video, which would be the next Prosecution Exhibit. We
16 do have a translation prepared for the voices that you
17 hear on the video, although it's very disconnected and
18 difficult to follow in terms of the voices, but the
19 visual, I think, is what's important.
20 A. May I ask something? Is there anyone who
21 gets killed on this film? Will I see anything like
22 that, like people getting killed?
23 Q. No, no.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be marked 277,
25 and the transcript 277A.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?
2 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, we would like to
3 ask the Prosecutor to tell us when this tape was
4 filmed, and who filmed it and when. Thank you.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. That's an apposite
7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: To the best of my knowledge,
8 this tape was filmed at, or on or about the time of the
9 release from the Dubravica school, so it would be late
10 April, early May of 1993. It appears to be a film
11 either made by the Red Cross itself or by a news
12 organisation. But it shows the inside of the Dubravica
13 school, and it shows several of the detainees that this
14 witness recognises, and it, in fact, shows this witness
15 at the school with her children.
16 Q. Now, witness, as you look at the film, and we
17 have looked at this before, have we not, you and I --
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?
19 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, the Prosecutor did
20 not say how this tape came into his possession and how
21 he obtained it.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz, can you tell
23 us how you got this tape?
24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this point I don't know
25 exactly how we got this tape, but I can endeavour to
1 get those answers and report back.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you.
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: What I am confident in is
4 that like a photograph, this videotape can be
5 identified by this witness who was there to observe the
7 Q. Again, witness, in answer to your question
8 earlier about seeing unpleasant scenes of death, no,
9 this will not have any of that. This is a videotape
10 that you and I have already looked at.
11 A. Okay.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Moskowitz, can we see
13 this in open session, this videotape?
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will see the face of
15 several people that we probably don't want to have
16 shown in open session, unless the video is going to
17 somehow not be broadcast outside this room.
18 THE REGISTRAR: At the moment, it will, so --
19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think it ought to be in
20 closed session then.
21 (Closed session)
13 Pages 4147 to 4264 redacted in closed session
19 --- Whereupon the proceedings adjourned
20 at 5.50 p.m., to be reconvened on
21 Friday, the 9th day of October, 1998, at
22 9.00 a.m.