1. 1 Thursday, 8th September, 1998

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 (Open session)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the

    6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and

    8 Vladimir Santic also know as "Vlado".

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

    10 Counsel Puliselic.

    11 MR. PULISELIC: Good morning, Mr. President.

    12 Before we begin the examination of the witness, I would

    13 like to introduce Mrs. Nika Pinter, my co-counsel.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Welcome to

    15 your court. Mr. Moskowitz?

    16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We too. Prosecution also

    17 welcomes Defence counsel to the Court.

    18 With regard to two orders that were

    19 introduced by the Prosecution and accepted into

    20 evidence, that would be Exhibit 251 and Exhibit 252, I

    21 believe the Court has requested us, the Prosecution, to

    22 determine whether there are any originals available,

    23 and I would like to report back to the Court on what

    24 our investigation has revealed to date, which is that

    25 these two exhibits were, in fact, tendered as Defence

  2. 1 exhibits in the Blaskic case.

    2 They were tendered as copies, not as

    3 originals, and, therefore, there are, as far as we

    4 know, no originals yet available either to the Defence

    5 in Blaskic or if they're available to the Defence in

    6 Blaskic they have not as yet produced them. We do not

    7 have originals, and it's our information that those

    8 exhibits were tendered but not yet admitted into

    9 evidence because of a witness who could not

    10 authenticate them, but that, in fact, there is a

    11 witness testifying at this time dealing with these

    12 exhibits and they may be admitted at that time. But as

    13 to whether there are originals, at this time, there are

    14 no originals that we know of.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    16 (The witness entered court)

    17 A. Good morning.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.

    19 WITNESS: WITNESS EE (Resumed)

    20 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

    21 Q. Good morning, Witness EE.

    22 A. Thank you.

    23 Q. Now, I would like to start with the events of

    24 April 16, 1993. To assist you in your testimony, I

    25 would ask that the usher provide you with the diagram

  3. 1 of your house, which is Exhibit 275.

    2 Now, from time to time I will ask you to

    3 refer to that diagram, but you need not be referring to

    4 it all the time.

    5 Now, I want you to think back to April 16,

    6 1993, and could you tell us where you were that morning

    7 before the attack started?

    8 A. We were on the first floor of our house, in

    9 the bedroom.

    10 Q. By "we," who do you mean?

    11 A. I mean my husband, and my children and

    12 myself.

    13 Q. Now, could you tell us what the first thing

    14 you remember of that morning, the first thing you

    15 remember?

    16 A. The first thing was a strong detonation and

    17 shooting. A strong detonation first, followed by

    18 shooting.

    19 Q. What do you recall doing, or hearing, or

    20 seeing next?

    21 A. At the same instance we all jumped up.

    22 Q. What did you do next?

    23 A. I grabbed my children by their shoulders, my

    24 husband was in front of me, and I went out into the

    25 hallway. We tried to go into the bathroom up above, on

  4. 1 the floor above. I opened the door and the bullets

    2 were already firing through the bathroom window and

    3 going into the wall. I automatically shut the door,

    4 got my children away and we returned to the hallway, on

    5 the landing.

    6 Q. Now, when you say you opened the door, which

    7 door are you referring to?

    8 A. The bathroom door on the floor above.

    9 Q. Now, after you closed the door of the

    10 bathroom and pulled your children away, what do you

    11 remember next?

    12 A. I didn't push my children, I kept holding on

    13 to them by the shoulders, and all four of us went down

    14 the stairs into the lower hallway, that is the floor

    15 below, and we stood in the hallway there.

    16 Q. While you stood in the hallway there, you and

    17 your family, did you hear or see anything at that

    18 time?

    19 A. We stood in the hallway and we were mute,

    20 just looking at each other. Then there were terrible

    21 voices to be heard, terrible voices, and I can hear

    22 them even now. They called out my husband's name.

    23 They called him, "Open the door, this is the police."

    24 This was repeated several times, but we kept quiet

    25 because we were terribly afraid by this time.

  5. 1 Q. When you heard your husband's name being

    2 called, what were you thinking?

    3 A. I saw that nothing nice was happening. It

    4 was terrible.

    5 Q. What did your husband do next, or what did

    6 you do, or what did you see or hear next?

    7 A. As we didn't say anything and there were

    8 these voices shouting, suddenly there was a burst of

    9 gunfire. This part here is in glass, it is a glass

    10 partition. This is a wall, and up above the wall was

    11 glass panes. There was a large door and part of the

    12 door was in glass as well. The bursts of gunfire

    13 reverberated against the glass and the doors fell off.

    14 Q. Now, you're referring to the part of the

    15 diagram that has the number 2 on it; is that right?

    16 A. Yes, yes. That's right. From these steps

    17 they were firing at the door, and, of course, the

    18 bullets hit the glass panelling and so the glass

    19 shattered.

    20 Q. Where were you and your family when you heard

    21 that firing from outside?

    22 A. We have a hallway here (indicating). From

    23 that hallway was the door leading to the garage, and to

    24 the living-room, and to the kitchen, and the door to

    25 the bathroom, and a door to a storage place which had

  6. 1 ceramic tiling in it. At that particular point we were

    2 in this hallway.

    3 Q. Was the door leading into the main part of

    4 the house, marked number 1, was that doorway at that

    5 time open or closed when you heard the firing from

    6 outside?

    7 A. No. When they started shooting at the glass

    8 and the door fell -- caved in, my husband unlocked this

    9 other door. As he unlocked it, he opened the door, he

    10 was standing here, my children and I were here, and I

    11 kept holding the children mechanically. I felt that my

    12 fist mechanism had become rigid, had locked. When my

    13 husband opened the door, I saw, in this part here,

    14 soldiers in full military uniform.

    15 Q. Now, perhaps, with the help of the usher, I

    16 will ask you to take one of those markers, perhaps the

    17 orange one would show up best, and do a couple of

    18 things for us. Could you put an X where your husband

    19 was standing when he opened the door that morning?

    20 A. (Marks)

    21 Q. Could you put the letter "A" where you were

    22 standing with your children when your husband opened

    23 the door and you saw soldiers? Just the letter "A" so

    24 we can place your position first?

    25 A. The position was here (marks).

  7. 1 Q. Could you put a circle in the area where you

    2 saw soldiers when your husband opened the door? Make

    3 it, I guess, big enough to include the general area

    4 where the soldiers were standing when you saw them, so

    5 we know how big an area they occupied. You can make a

    6 large circle or a small circle, whatever you think is

    7 appropriate.

    8 A. You want me to place a circle; is that

    9 right? I didn't quite understand you.

    10 Q. Yes. A circle to show, in the general area,

    11 where the soldiers were standing when you saw them when

    12 your husband opened the door, again, using the marker.

    13 A. (Marks)

    14 Q. Now, when your husband opened the door and

    15 you saw those men standing there, about how long did

    16 you have to see them before your eyes shifted to

    17 something else?

    18 A. It was seconds, a the matter of seconds.

    19 Very quick. When my husband opened the door, I looked

    20 at them all like this, as I'm -- this way. When he

    21 open the door, I looked at them, I looked at all of

    22 them, and I was dumbfounded. Nobody said anything. My

    23 husband didn't say anything, they didn't say anything,

    24 the children didn't say anything.

    25 Q. When you looked at these men, these soldiers,

  8. 1 for those two seconds or so, did you form an impression

    2 as to who these soldiers were at that time?

    3 A. Yes. Yes.

    4 Q. Who did you recognise standing there at that

    5 time?

    6 A. Vlado Santic, Zeljo Livancic, Drago

    7 Josipovic, Marinko Katava, Karlo Cerkez.

    8 Q. At that time did you recognise anyone else in

    9 those two seconds?

    10 A. At this moment I just cannot think. I know

    11 Katava was there, Cerkez was there, Zeljo, Santic,

    12 Josipovic.

    13 Q. Now, when your husband opened the door you

    14 saw these soldiers standing there --

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. -- what did you see happen next?

    17 A. Mr. Santic and Zeljo -- my husband was

    18 standing here. That's where they were (indicating).

    19 They had freed this area here. It was all a matter of

    20 seconds. They just turned round in a circle, the two

    21 of them. My husband went in front of them, and Zeljo,

    22 and Vlado Santic went behind him.

    23 Q. How were these two men, Zeljo Livancic and

    24 Vlado Santic, dressed that morning, as you recall now?

    25 A. Yes. Yes, I remember. It was a camouflage

  9. 1 uniform with an HVO patch, and they had helmets.

    2 Q. Did any of the other soldiers standing on

    3 your veranda, or your porch, have helmets that

    4 morning, as far as you can recall?

    5 A. No, only those two. I saw those two, and

    6 they were wearing helmets.

    7 Q. Now, you say that these two men who were

    8 wearing helmets, Vlado Santic and Zeljo Livancic, took

    9 your husband. In which direction did you see them take

    10 your husband? If you could point for us, just to show

    11 us the direction in which they went.

    12 A. I can just show you as much as I saw. My

    13 glance went up to these -- I could see up to these

    14 steps here. I call it the veranda. We had sort of a

    15 plateau, a plate, and then an entrance door, and I was

    16 on this plateau and that's where I saw my husband for

    17 the last time. I never saw or heard of him again after

    18 that moment.

    19 Q. Could you take the marker in front you, and

    20 with an arrow, show us the direction in which you saw

    21 your husband go with those two men when you saw your

    22 husband for the last time, just so that we know the

    23 direction.

    24 A. (Marks)

    25 Q. Perhaps another marker would be better. Not

  10. 1 a pencil, but a marker.

    2 A. (Marks)

    3 Q. Could you put an arrow mark on it so we know

    4 which direction you're referring to, using, again, the

    5 blue marker. At the end of that line, yes.

    6 A. (Marks)

    7 Q. Now, what is the next thing you remember

    8 seeing or hearing after you saw your husband being led

    9 away in that direction?

    10 A. I remember him saying, "Don't kill my wife

    11 and children."

    12 Q. That would be your husband who said that?

    13 A. Yes, my husband said that; "Don't kill my

    14 wife and children."

    15 Q. Could I interrupt for one second? Do you

    16 remember what your husband was wearing that morning?

    17 A. Of course I do. Of course I remember. He

    18 had a vest and short pants on. Of course I remember.

    19 Q. Was he dressed in civilian clothes or in a

    20 uniform?

    21 A. Who?

    22 Q. Your husband.

    23 A. My husband was sleeping, and he slept in his

    24 under-vest, his underwear, his vest and short pants,

    25 and that's how he got up, in his underwear. It all

  11. 1 happened in a matter of seconds. That's how he was

    2 taken out and that's how he was killed. You can carry

    3 out an identification.

    4 Q. Did he have a weapon, your husband, when he

    5 was taken away or when he went to the door that

    6 morning?

    7 A. No, no, no. We didn't have any weapons of

    8 any kind, any arms of any kind. My husband worked on

    9 the 15th of April, 1993, and he came back from work in

    10 the evening, towards evening.

    11 Q. Now, let's get back to what happened that

    12 morning. When your husband was led away, what is the

    13 next thing you remember seeing or hearing after that

    14 happened?

    15 A. The moment he was taken away, and this was

    16 very fast, Drago Josipovic told me, "Go into that

    17 corner, that corner over there, and we're going to

    18 slaughter all of you," and that's the corner he meant,

    19 this corner here (indicating). "You three go into that

    20 corner, and we're going to cut your throats."

    21 Q. Where was Drago Josipovic standing when you

    22 heard him order you to go into the corner? Again, if

    23 you could use your pointer to show us.

    24 A. They were standing here. There

    25 (indicating). When he was taken away, they drew closer

  12. 1 to me. I was ordered to go into this corner with my

    2 children, and they said they would cut our throats.

    3 Q. Did you go into the corner as you were told

    4 to do?

    5 A. Of course.

    6 Q. Where were your children?

    7 A. I kept a firm hold on my children. I never

    8 let them go for one second. I kept this mechanical

    9 hold on them. The moment that we had got up out of bed

    10 and I got hold of them by the shoulder, I never let

    11 them go until I had reached the shed over here.

    12 Q. Could you take that marker in front of you

    13 now and place the letter "B" where you and your

    14 children went after you were told to go into the

    15 corner, so that we can have this for the record and

    16 refer to it later on.

    17 Could you put the letter "B" there so we

    18 know, when we read the record, that that is the second

    19 position you were at that morning?

    20 A. (Marks)

    21 Q. While you were at that corner, position "B,"

    22 which is on the veranda, what do you recall hearing or

    23 seeing next?

    24 A. I was passing here and my back was turned.

    25 We came to this point and turned round. When I had

  13. 1 turned round, at that very second, there was only one

    2 HVO soldier standing here, just one, and he looked at

    3 me like this. This was Stipo Alilovic, nicknamed Brko.

    4 Q. How long did you look at this Stipo Alilovic

    5 at that moment?

    6 A. Just for several seconds. It was a matter of

    7 seconds. It wasn't slow motion. Everything occurred

    8 in a matter of seconds. Everything they did, this

    9 whole operation.

    10 Q. What do you recall seeing or hearing next?

    11 A. Perhaps a second or two or three, it's very

    12 hard for me to tell the time, in one split second,

    13 again a group of soldiers appeared. Stipo Alilovic

    14 stood leaning against this wall at this first step.

    15 Zeljo Livancic stood next to him. After him was Drago

    16 Josipovic and Karlo Cerkez at that point. Then I spoke

    17 up and I said, "People, what is this? What is going

    18 on?" They were just staring at me. They didn't say a

    19 word. They stared and stared and stared. This Brko,

    20 Alilovic Stipo, held a bomb, a grenade, in this hand,

    21 next to him was Zeljo, and he says this -- he was

    22 staring, staring. They stood and stared, when I said,

    23 "People, what is this? What is going on? Why is this

    24 going on?" Stipo Alilovic came up and said, "What do I

    25 do with the grenade?" he says to Zeljo. Zeljo looked

  14. 1 at us this way, looked at me, looked at my children.

    2 I'm sorry, I apologise for using this word. He says,

    3 "Out. Get lost."

    4 Q. Who did he say that to, "Get lost" or "Out"?

    5 A. To me and to my children.

    6 Q. Who said that?

    7 A. Zeljo Livancic.

    8 Q. Who is Zeljo Livancic?

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 Q. When Zeljo Livancic ordered you to get out,

    15 what did you do next?

    16 A. As I was clutching my children, I started

    17 walking this way, to this veranda, as we call it.

    18 Q. Did you go down the stairs of the veranda?

    19 A. Not all the stairs, you know. They stood

    20 there, and, as I was holding my children, I walked out

    21 this way and I went this way (indicating). One was

    22 supposed to jump a bit, but I wasn't really very

    23 careful at that point, so I took my children and we

    24 went a bit to the other side -- or, rather, it is

    25 direct, but, you know, they were standing there. So we

  15. 1 went out this way (indicating), and they were getting

    2 into the house.

    3 Q. Now, when you passed by the soldiers as you

    4 were going down the veranda, did you look at them as

    5 you walked past them?

    6 A. I didn't, I didn't. I was holding my

    7 children, and I just looked straight ahead of myself.

    8 When I was crouching here with my children, that is

    9 when we saw each other, and also when I said, "People,

    10 what is this? What is going on? Why is this going

    11 on?" as I was saying that, they remained silent. They

    12 looked at each other. Then Stipo Alilovic asked what I

    13 already told you about, what he'd do with the hand

    14 grenade. Zeljo looked at me and the children and he

    15 said, "Out. Get out."

    16 Q. Now, earlier you had said that, when your

    17 husband was taken away, Zeljo Livancic was one of the

    18 two men that took him. Had he then returned to the

    19 veranda?

    20 A. Yes, yes, yes. He came back. As he was

    21 taken away and as they were ordering me to go here and

    22 there and I crouched there with my children, when I

    23 crouched there, only Stipo was there. In a moment,

    24 they reappeared, and that was it.

    25 Q. Now, what about the second man who took your

  16. 1 husband, Vlado Santic? At the time you were on the

    2 veranda in position "B" and as you left the veranda,

    3 had Vlado Santic returned or was he still not there?

    4 A. He did not return then. He did not return

    5 then. Only they came back, and I went out here

    6 (indicating). This is where my mother stood who had

    7 already been evicted from her house. She had been

    8 wounded a bit. They had opened her house by shooting

    9 at her door and shooting her door down and she had

    10 burns on her face, and she was crouching there and she

    11 watched our fate.

    12 Q. Could you help us again and take the marker

    13 and put a "C," the letter "C," where you went, you and

    14 your children went after you were ordered to leave the

    15 veranda, so that we know where you and your children

    16 were next? The letter "C."

    17 A. (Marks)

    18 Q. That would be just near the room or the area

    19 marked number 8 on the schematic of your house and

    20 stables; is that correct?

    21 A. Yes, yes, yes. This is where my children and

    22 I were and my mother. Actually, I came with my

    23 children to my mother as she had already been crouching

    24 there.

    25 Q. Where had your mother been; do you know?

  17. 1 When you saw her at that position "C," where had she

    2 been before?

    3 A. Her house was right here, near mine.

    4 Q. Right next door to your house?

    5 A. Yes. My house was here and her house was

    6 right here (indicating).

    7 Q. Did your mother say anything to you when you

    8 met her at position "C"?

    9 A. When we came to her, bullets were flying all

    10 over. We leaned hard against this wall here, and I

    11 felt a soldier walking up, marching up, and as he

    12 passed here, this part here (indicating), I raised my

    13 head and I saw Mr. Santic, and I said, "Santic!

    14 Santic! Vlado!" Vlado looked at me just like this,

    15 and he jumped away from me, three metres away from me.

    16 He jumped towards Zarko's house.

    17 Q. Could you put a "V" where you saw and spoke

    18 with Vlado Santic that morning so we know where that

    19 was?

    20 A. (Marks)

    21 Q. Now, which Vlado Santic are we talking about?

    22 because there are several Vlado Santics in the area of

    23 Vitez. Which Vlado Santic are you referring to --

    24 A. Yes. I don't know what you are exactly

    25 interested in. Vlado is here, whose father-in-law

  18. 1 lived below my house. That was a wonderful man, his

    2 father-in-law, a very honest man. A truly good man,

    3 you know, his father-in-law. He's the one.

    4 And the other one, as far as I know, his wife

    5 had a kiosk where they sold literature and cigarettes,

    6 and I was in charge of the private sector at the Vitez

    7 municipality, and when something was needed, Vlado

    8 Santic, who was there, near my house, he would come to

    9 take care of these matters.

    10 Q. Do you know what position Vlado -- this Vlado

    11 Santic had prior to the attack in Ahmici in 1993, what

    12 his job was?

    13 A. He was in the HVO police. I think he was

    14 commander of the HVO police. My office was facing the

    15 post office, the hotel, and I would often see him

    16 passing along the street towards the hotel because I

    17 also worked until the very last day.

    18 Q. Could you describe what this Vlado Santic

    19 looked like?

    20 A. At that time, he was sort of a bigish lad

    21 with a firm footstep, blond, a high forehead. Like

    22 that.

    23 Q. Do you see him in the courtroom today?

    24 A. Certainly, yes.

    25 Q. Could you describe where he's sitting or what

  19. 1 he's wearing?

    2 A. Yes. He's wearing a necktie, he's wearing a

    3 jacket, a darker jacket, he has headphones on his

    4 ears. Is that sufficient? A white shirt.

    5 Q. Could you tell us a little more about his

    6 facial appearance so that we know you're identifying --

    7 A. Fair complexion, a fair complexion.

    8 Q. What about hair?

    9 A. He doesn't really have any.

    10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the record reflect that

    11 she has identified Vlado Santic.

    12 Q. You have also talked about Drago Josipovic.

    13 Do you see him here in the courtroom today?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Could you describe him please?

    16 A. Yes. Yes. Mr. Drago is sitting behind this

    17 pillar here. He has a moustache, white shirt and a

    18 tie, and also a jacket like Vlado.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the record reflect that

    20 she has identified Drago Josipovic.

    21 A. Now that we're on the subject of Drago

    22 Josipovic, can I say something else?

    23 Q. Certainly.

    24 A. Before the conflict, Mr. Drago Josipovic was

    25 going home from work with Fahrudin Ahmic. They were

  20. 1 talking. As they came to our houses -- because our

    2 houses were first by the road and then their houses --

    3 Drago Josipovic told Fahrudin, "Pity for these two

    4 houses down here." Fahrudin answered, "Drago, you say

    5 what you know." Fahrudin swore a bit too, you know, he

    6 said, "Drago, tell me, you know something." Fahrudin

    7 came to us and he told us about that immediately. That

    8 is what I wish to say.

    9 Q. So you heard this --

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?

    11 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I object to the

    12 statement of this witness because this is hearsay. It

    13 comes from another person because she is telling us

    14 what another person told her.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, I think on at

    16 least three occasions I have told you that in this

    17 court we do admit hearsay evidence, and it is for the

    18 Court to decide on the probative value of hearsay

    19 evidence.

    20 You may go on.

    21 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.

    22 A. I asked if I could say this, and this is

    23 certainly the truth.


    25 Q. Yes, Witness. And the Tribunal has allowed

  21. 1 you to say this.

    2 I would like to just clarify something with

    3 regard to this statement. This is a statement that you

    4 heard from Fahrudin Ahmic. Which Fahrudin Ahmic are we

    5 talking about? Where did he live and what happened to

    6 him?

    7 A. He was a very nice man, very nice. He had

    8 three children. (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Perhaps it might be useful if

    12 the witness could be shown the map, 273?

    13 Q. Could you, using the pointer, just try to

    14 find the house of Fahrudin Ahmic just so we know where

    15 he lived?

    16 A. The house of Fahrudin Ahmic is over here

    17 (indicating). Here it is.

    18 Q. Again, Drago Josipovic's house, if you could

    19 show us where that is again?

    20 A. It's right over here (indicating).

    21 Q. So this Fahrudin Ahmic lived right next door

    22 to the Josipovic house; is that right?

    23 A. Yes, yes. They were nearby. The road

    24 towards Hasim's house, that is Fahrudin's father, and

    25 Fahrudin's house was the only thing that divided

  22. 1 Hasim's house and the house of the parents of Drago

    2 Josipovic, and behind Drago Josipovic -- rather, it is

    3 Drago Josipovic's parents and then Drago. That's the

    4 way the houses went. Because there was one road that

    5 led to Fahrudin's house and then there was Drago

    6 Josipovic's parents' house, right over there.

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 A. Yes.

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 Q. Now, I want to just take you back just for a

    16 second.

    17 If we could go back to the diagram, usher,

    18 please?

    19 As you were, and your children, as you were

    20 walking to position "C," did you notice anything with

    21 regard to the soldiers either on the veranda or

    22 elsewhere, and now I'm talking about a time period in

    23 between your leaving the veranda and arriving at

    24 position "C," as you were walking towards position "C"?

    25 A. These soldiers who were standing on the

  23. 1 steps, they all walked into the house at that point.

    2 Q. Now, after you arrived at position "C," did

    3 you speak with your mother, and if so, do you recall

    4 what she told you?

    5 A. When we came to her, she told me over there,

    6 "Two men in helmets took Muzafer away." That was all;

    7 we didn't speak any more. Because bullets were flying

    8 all over, we leaned against this wall, as I was holding

    9 my children; she was here; and I said, "Mama, let's go

    10 into the shed." "Okay." Although that was no

    11 guarantee for our lives. But, you know, a person

    12 thinks that he can save himself that way at such

    13 moments, so we walked into this shed.

    14 I placed my children here in front of me

    15 (indicating) and we were huddling, and there were some

    16 wooden boards here, and I was there behind my children

    17 and behind me was my mother. Then I put my hands on

    18 their heads, like this, and I was clutching them all

    19 the time.

    20 Q. Could you, with the marker, place the letter

    21 "D" to show us now the fourth position that you and

    22 your children, and now mother, were in that morning so

    23 that we can refer to it in future?

    24 A. (Marks)

    25 Q. If you could place the letter "D" so it's not

  24. 1 so small that we can't read it? Just to symbolise

    2 where you were.

    3 A. (Marks)

    4 Q. Now, while you were at this position "D,"

    5 which is in the room marked 7 on the schematic, could

    6 you see out of that room or was there a door blocking

    7 your view?

    8 A. No, I could see. This shed didn't have a

    9 door. The door was next to the window, but then it

    10 didn't have a window either. We had bought a window

    11 and a door, but they remained in the garage. So I

    12 could see, let's say, this area (indicating). Over

    13 here, I could only see this area, the corner of this

    14 house, that. But here, I had a better view, on the

    15 left-hand side.

    16 Q. Now, you had said that you noticed some of

    17 the soldiers going into your house, the soldiers who

    18 were on the veranda. Did you --

    19 A. Right.

    20 Q. -- see any other soldiers in the vicinity of

    21 your house at this time, either in the garden or in the

    22 yard or on the road?

    23 A. Yes. Over here, in this area, yes. Over

    24 here (indicating). That's where the window is. Here.

    25 Q. So that would be near the corner of your

  25. 1 house on the upper right-hand side as we look at this

    2 diagram?

    3 A. Yes, yes.

    4 Q. Could you recognise any --

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Could you recognise any of those soldiers?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Now, what is the next thing you remember

    9 seeing or hearing as you and your children and mother

    10 were in position "D"?

    11 A. When we were sitting there and while I was

    12 holding my children's heads -- I don't know. I can't

    13 really tell the time because there was no way I could

    14 tell the time. Some minutes went on forever and

    15 others -- I don't know.

    16 So I saw soldiers jumping out of here and

    17 they were moving in this direction, towards Zarko's

    18 house.

    19 Q. Now, when you say you saw soldiers jumping

    20 out of "here," what do you mean by "here"? Could you

    21 describe where you saw soldiers as they jumped?

    22 A. Could you please repeat your question?

    23 Q. Tell us where you saw the soldiers when they

    24 were jumping. Where were they?

    25 A. I heard the thump when they jumped, like

  26. 1 this, and they were passing by here, in front. Here

    2 (indicating). In front of the door and the window

    3 where we were crouching, you know, like I'm crouching

    4 here, and they're passing here, right in front.

    5 Q. Just to make it clear for the record, and

    6 correct me if I'm wrong, but you heard soldiers

    7 jumping, basically, off your veranda; is that right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Now, you heard them jumping. Did you see

    10 them as they left your house, or did you just hear

    11 them?

    12 A. I heard them and I saw them. I heard them

    13 and I saw them.

    14 Q. Now --

    15 A. Because they were walking here, this way

    16 (indicating). I could see them. I didn't lift my

    17 head, but -- I was afraid, but I saw these soldiers

    18 jumping out and passing by.

    19 Q. Now, at that moment, did you recognise any of

    20 those soldiers as they passed by or jumped out of your

    21 house?

    22 A. I wasn't watching their faces then.

    23 Q. What is the next thing you recall? and now

    24 I'm specifically drawing your attention to your house

    25 after these soldiers passed by and left your house.

  27. 1 A. It all became quiet. No one was walking.

    2 You couldn't hear anyone. Silence. I felt smoke

    3 coming from my house, and I told my mama, I said,

    4 "Mama, the house is on fire." I felt this smoke

    5 getting out. I saw smoke from the terrace passing

    6 here. Lots of smoke.

    7 Since I couldn't hear anyone and I didn't see

    8 anyone, I tried to save my house. My mother did too.

    9 I said already that in this area, I had a storage space

    10 covered in ceramic tiles. It also had running water, a

    11 faucet. At that tap, I kept a hose, 20 or 30 metres

    12 long, and that is how I tended my cows, because I had

    13 two cows. Also the garden, the yard, et cetera.

    14 So this hose was over there at the tap. At

    15 that moment, I left my children, and mama, and I ran

    16 into the house. I rushed into the storage space, I

    17 grabbed this hose, I opened the water, and I went into

    18 this hallway, I went into the living room, and I tried

    19 to extinguish the fire with this hose.

    20 The house had a staircase too and there was a

    21 lot of wood, and also there was -- there were carpets,

    22 woollen carpets, and I kept trying to extinguish the

    23 fire with this water, we managed to do so, and then I

    24 went back there and joined my children.

    25 Q. After, you joined your children and your

  28. 1 mother back at position "D"; is that correct?

    2 A. No, no, I'm sorry. My mother was with me,

    3 together with me. Together we were trying to

    4 extinguish the fire and the children were alone. We

    5 left the children on their own while we were trying to

    6 extinguish the fire in the house, and then the two of

    7 us came back.

    8 Q. You were successful in extinguishing the

    9 fire?

    10 A. Yes, yes.

    11 Q. Then what happened?

    12 A. After a short time they came with inflammable

    13 bullets from the direction of Zarko's house, and

    14 unfortunately, my house was once again set fire to. It

    15 started burning, and I said to my mother, "We shouldn't

    16 go out again. We can't do anything this time. They

    17 can wound us with a bullet, they can hit us. My

    18 children are here." And so my mother said, "All

    19 right. We'll stay."

    20 Q. Now, if you can just remove the diagram

    21 that's in front of you and go to the map and show us

    22 where Zarko's house is so we know what you mean when

    23 you say the bullets came from Zarko's direction. You

    24 can use the pointer to show us Zarko's house.

    25 A. Zarko's house is this (indicating). From

  29. 1 this direction -- the bullets came from that direction,

    2 hitting my house again and setting it on fire.

    3 Q. What is the next thing you recall?

    4 A. We were in the shed. We waited for our

    5 fate. My house was ablaze. Some parts had already

    6 begun to cave in.

    7 I looked at the house that belongs to Ramiz

    8 Ahmic and his sons, and Ramiz Ahmic had annexes. He

    9 was a rich man, so he had auxiliary buildings around

    10 his house. I said to my mother, "There's -- I'm happy

    11 to see that Ramiz's house is not on fire. He might

    12 give us a room to save ourselves and to shelter there

    13 until we find somewhere to go, because our house is

    14 completely destroyed. But never mind, we'll put this

    15 in order, this part here that's left, and we'll be able

    16 to live there." But houses were not on fire, they were

    17 intact, whereas my house was completely ablaze. I look

    18 at their houses and I was very happy to see that they

    19 were not alight.

    20 Q. Could you, on that map in front of you, point

    21 to Ramiz's house?

    22 A. Yes. You just told me to point, to indicate

    23 Ramiz's house. This is Ramiz Ahmic's house

    24 (indicating).

    25 Q. From where you were at position "D", could

  30. 1 you see Ramiz's house well or was it obstructed?

    2 A. No, I could see it well. It's an open

    3 space. There's nothing to obstruct my view, so I could

    4 see his house directly from where I stood, and his

    5 whole entire property, and Nazif's as well.

    6 Q. What did you see then, or hear?

    7 A. After some time had elapsed, I heard, along

    8 this path here, from the direction of Zarko's house,

    9 there was thumping, the thump of footsteps could be

    10 heard, and I heard Ivanka talking, but I don't know who

    11 she was talking to. Then perhaps one, two, three

    12 minutes later I saw, from this direction where I was

    13 standing, I saw a group of soldiers passing by the

    14 road, the path up there, and they left. I don't know

    15 where they went.

    16 Q. Could you replace that diagram on the machine

    17 next to you so we can see where you were pointing,

    18 because we couldn't see it as you were pointing now.

    19 Perhaps the usher can assist.

    20 A. What do you want me to show you?

    21 Q. Could you show us where you heard the

    22 soldiers pass by? What road were they on and in what

    23 direction were they going?

    24 A. They were here, from the direction of Zarko's

    25 house, and they went in this direction (indicating).

  31. 1 Q. You've indicated that with an arrow along the

    2 right-hand side of the diagram; is that right?

    3 A. Yes, yes. They were going up to the main

    4 road leading to the other road.

    5 Q. Did you recognise any of those soldiers?

    6 A. On that occasion?

    7 Q. On that occasion, yes.

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Now, you mentioned hearing the voice of

    10 Ivanka. Who is Ivanka?

    11 (redacted)

    12 Q. Did you see her or did you just hear her

    13 voice?

    14 A. I just heard her. I didn't see her, couldn't

    15 see her, just heard her.

    16 Q. After the soldiers passed, did you hear

    17 anything coming from the houses of Nazif or Ramiz?

    18 A. When they passed this way and after several

    19 minutes, I saw here, in this direction, a group of

    20 soldiers in this part here (indicating). They had

    21 passed by, but I couldn't see where they had gone to

    22 from where I was standing.

    23 Then as I kept looking at their houses, I saw

    24 that in this way, as I'm showing you now, a group of

    25 soldiers went towards Ramiz's house, that is to say

  32. 1 they came to the shed first, and below the shed is the

    2 manure, it was all concrete cement, and they went

    3 towards that part. One portion went down into the

    4 place where the manure is stored, the others went by

    5 the shed or whatever it was, and then I heard voices,

    6 "Come out you balijas so that we can cut your

    7 throats. Come out you balijas, we're going to

    8 slaughter you."

    9 The soldiers went further upwards, and I

    10 could no longer see them because they were moving up

    11 towards the front of the house, because the house and

    12 the shed is there. They entered the yard and I

    13 couldn't see them anymore, but I heard them.

    14 Before that, I heard Nazif's wife's voice,

    15 and there was a sort of struggle, a fight, and then the

    16 voice disappeared. I heard Ramiz shouting, "What's up

    17 people? What's up? What do you want? What is all

    18 this? What's happening?" I didn't hear the soldiers

    19 anymore, but I did hear Ramiz, in a very sad voice

    20 saying, "Wife, come out. Let them see you. Let them

    21 see you. Come out." Those were the last voices that I

    22 heard. I didn't hear Ramiz anymore, and I didn't hear

    23 anything anymore of that incident.

    24 Later on, I saw, on the lower floor of the

    25 house, one of Ramiz's rooms on fire. I could see

  33. 1 flames and smoke, and, of course, the flames spread.

    2 Q. Were you in a position to be able to identify

    3 or recognise any of those soldiers?

    4 A. No, no.

    5 Q. Now, how long did you stay at position "D"?

    6 A. The whole day.

    7 Q. When did you leave position "D", do you

    8 remember?

    9 A. Yes, I do.

    10 Q. How did that come about?

    11 A. I left towards evening. It wasn't very dark

    12 yet but it was dusk. As in the course of the day, Jozo

    13 Livancic had come up to us. I don't know how he came.

    14 I didn't see -- I saw him. He sort of had some rubber

    15 soles or something, because he was quite silent. We

    16 didn't hear him come up, we just saw him.

    17 He came up to us and looked at us like this

    18 (indicating), up to the door that was free, and he saw

    19 me and my mother sitting on the plank and saw our

    20 children with us, and he just left.

    21 My mother called out to him. She said,

    22 "Jozo, Jozo," but he didn't respond. He didn't want

    23 to turn around at all or say anything.

    24 Q. Now, tell us who Jozo Livancic is.

    25 A. He is the father of Zeljo Livancic.

  34. 1 Q. By the way, that position "D" in the toolshed

    2 marked number 7, during the day, did you or your mother

    3 do anything to attempt to provide yourselves with some

    4 additional protection, and I'm referring specifically

    5 to the doorway.

    6 A. Yes, yes, yes, I did, because when Jozo

    7 Livancic had left, not much time had gone by. From

    8 this corner here, a bullet hit directly here

    9 (indicating). I stood there and God saved me, nobody

    10 else. My hair was singed, and the bullet hit the wall

    11 where the cows were. I crouched down again in fear,

    12 waiting to see if there would be another one that would

    13 follow it. There was nothing. A silence, a lull.

    14 Then as we were in the toolshed and we had

    15 some tools from the car and car tires, I placed planks

    16 against the window and then lifted the part of the car,

    17 the hub of the car, and I kept it up as protection

    18 against the windows so that they should not hit my

    19 children. I was only frightened that something would

    20 happen to my children or my mother. By the door I

    21 placed another plank. I held all this material in this

    22 position, and I stayed there holding everything up

    23 until Josip -- Jozo Livancic and Drago Papic came to

    24 that place.

    25 Q. This would have been just before dark on that

  35. 1 day?

    2 A. Yes. The 16th of April.

    3 Q. Now, during the course of the day, while you

    4 were in position "D", did you ever look around your

    5 house to see where your husband might be?

    6 A. No. No, I just had this view of the front

    7 part of the house. But I kept saying to myself -- I

    8 kept consoling myself, and I lived in the hope that my

    9 neighbours had taken my husband prisoner. That's what

    10 I said to myself. Nobody told me that, I just said

    11 this to myself to give me strength and to console

    12 myself.

    13 Q. Now, during the course of the day while you

    14 were in position "D", did you hear any shooting or any

    15 other sounds that you can describe?

    16 A. There was the shooting the whole day. There

    17 was shelling the whole day. Shooting throughout the

    18 day, grenades, mortars.

    19 Q. Now, I think you said just a moment ago that

    20 towards evening some people came to the shed. Could

    21 you tell us who those people were who came to the shed,

    22 that is position "D"?

    23 A. They didn't come into the shed, they came in

    24 front of the shed, to the shed, and they were Drago

    25 Josipovic, in full military gear; Papic Drago, once

  36. 1 again full military gear; and Jozo Livancic, also in

    2 full military gear.

    3 Q. Now, you mentioned "Papic." Which Papic was

    4 there?

    5 A. There were two. No. One is Drago. Papic

    6 Anto is an elderly man. He's well-built, tall, and he

    7 used to live below the house of Ramic Kijazim, along

    8 that way.

    9 Q. Was the elderly man, the elderly Papic, was

    10 he the one that was at the toolshed that evening?

    11 A. All three of them were standing like this in

    12 the same position. All three of them stood in front of

    13 my shed.

    14 Q. Did you have any difficulty recognising Drago

    15 Josipovic as one of those three men who was standing in

    16 front of your shed?

    17 A. I recognised all three of them. They're all

    18 neighbours. They were not unknown men.

    19 Q. What happened when they came to the shed,

    20 just outside the shed?

    21 A. They called out to me (redacted) come out,

    22 come out. Come out." I said, "I don't dare come out.

    23 My children are here," I said. So he said, "Come out,

    24 all of you," and we had to go out.

    25 Q. What happened when you, your children and

  37. 1 your mother came out, exited the shed?

    2 A. Drago Josipovic told me, "Your shed is going

    3 to be set afire now." I said, "All right. Just leave

    4 my cows. Let them out so that they're not burnt

    5 alive."

    6 Q. What did Drago Josipovic then do?

    7 A. We had a big hammer, and he cut off the lock

    8 of the door to the cow shed. He bashed the door down

    9 and he let the cows go out of the shed.

    10 Q. So that was, in fact, an act of some kindness

    11 towards the animals?

    12 A. Yes. Yes.

    13 Q. Then where did you and your mother and

    14 children go? Before you answer, please hold on.

    15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Moskowitz, could we clarify

    16 which of the Papic's it was?

    17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Certainly. I would be happy

    18 to do it or the Court can.

    19 JUDGE MAY: You do it.


    21 Q. Let's be absolutely clear, witness. Could

    22 you describe the Papic who was at your toolshed that

    23 evening with the other two men, Drago Josipovic and

    24 Jozo Livancic?

    25 A. Yes. Yes.

  38. 1 Q. About how old was this man, this Papic?

    2 A. An elderly man. Perhaps about 60.

    3 JUDGE MAY: The reference is to Anto,

    4 clearly, not Dragan.

    5 A. I don't know exactly, but I suppose that he

    6 is about 60 years old.


    8 Q. Do you know --

    9 A. Perhaps he's a year or two older, but

    10 thereabouts.

    11 Q. Do you know this man's first name?

    12 A. Anto Papic.

    13 Q. Now, could you tell us what your family did

    14 after the cows were released by Drago Josipovic?

    15 A. They then said to us the following: "Go into

    16 the house down there," that is to say, Anto Papic's

    17 house, "there are some more Muslims down there."

    18 Q. Did you, in fact, go to Anto Papic's house

    19 that evening?

    20 A. I told them that I didn't dare go, because I

    21 had seen terrible things happen, and I told them, "I

    22 don't dare go. You come with us."

    23 Q. Then what happened?

    24 A. They said, "All right." We were wearing

    25 pyjamas, we were barefoot, and they went along with us

  39. 1 towards the house of Anto Papic.

    2 Q. Did you put any kind of clothing on that you

    3 found in the toolshed before you left?

    4 A. Well, yes. I put on some of my late

    5 husband's old trousers, his work trousers. He used

    6 them for work when he was in the toolshed. I had an

    7 old jumper which I used when I went to milk the cows.

    8 That's what I put on, and that's what I wore when I

    9 left. The children didn't put anything else on, they

    10 left as they were.

    11 Q. Now, could you, perhaps with the assistance

    12 of the usher, again, look at the map and show us the

    13 direction that you took to go to Anto Papic's house

    14 that evening? You can use the pointer, I think, to

    15 show the route.

    16 A. When we left my shed here, we took this route

    17 (indicating). We crossed over here. There was a small

    18 concrete wall. We went along this path up to Zarko's

    19 house, and then past Zarko's house further on to this

    20 road here, and we went along the road this way, and

    21 arrived at the house of Anto Papic. It was here.

    22 Q. For future reference, could you help us again

    23 by taking the marker and drawing a line showing your

    24 route from the house, your house -- or your shed, to

    25 the house of Anto Papic? You could take the diagram

  40. 1 off the maps while you're doing that so it's easier for

    2 you to draw.

    3 A. Do you mean across this -- on this map here?

    4 Q. Yes.

    5 A. Which colour shall I use, red?

    6 Q. I think red would show up best. Perhaps the

    7 usher could help with the handling of the diagram.

    8 A. Very well. (Marks)

    9 Q. Thank you.

    10 A. You're welcome.

    11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I would ask the usher to show

    12 the witness the next exhibit for the Prosecution.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 276.


    15 Q. This is a photograph that we call Exhibit

    16 276. Witness, could you identify that for us, please?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Whose house is that?

    19 A. That is the house of Mr. Papic Anto.

    20 Q. That would be the house that has the letter

    21 "F" over it; is that right?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. There's a path that we see in front of the

    24 picture. Is that the path that you and your family

    25 took that evening when you went to Anto Papic's house?

  41. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. When you entered this house, who did you see

    3 there, if anyone?

    4 A. I really did see a lot of Muslims.

    5 Q. Were these women, and children and men?

    6 A. Yes, there were women, there were children

    7 and there were men as well.

    8 Q. Did you see anyone you knew and can tell us

    9 about?

    10 A. Of the Muslims, you mean?

    11 Q. Yes.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Who did you see there that you recognised?

    14 A. I recognised them all.

    15 Q. Did you speak with any of them and did they

    16 tell you anything?

    17 A. When I went into the house (redacted)

    18 they were all very sad. They were all crying(redacted)

    19 cried aloud, and she said, (redacted)

    20 (redacted) and you know that your husband has been

    21 killed as well." That's what she said.

    22 Q. Did you at that time know that your husband

    23 had been killed, in fact?

    24 A. Yes, yes.

    25 Q. How did you know that?

  42. 1 A. Drago Josipovic told(redacted) that, and Drago

    2 Josipovic told me, when I was in front of the shed, in

    3 this kind of tone, "Ah (redacted)has been killed too".

    4 Q. Did you stay overnight at Anto Papic's house?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Was anyone taking care of the children at

    7 Anto Papic's house?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Who was that?

    10 A. It was the wife of Anto Papic.

    11 Q. Did you see how she was taking care of the

    12 children?

    13 A. Well, you know what? There were a lot of

    14 cows belonging to the Muslims. They all came to the

    15 yard. There were a lot of cows, and my cows were there

    16 too. I asked whether I could go out to milk my cows to

    17 give my children some milk and to drink some milk

    18 myself and then what's left could be shared by the

    19 others, and they said, "Yes, you can." That's what I

    20 did. They milked the cows too. They cooked the milk

    21 and they gave the children milk to drink and anybody

    22 else who wanted to drink, although all of us who knew

    23 what was going on and who had seen what was going on,

    24 we didn't really feel like eating, and the lady brought

    25 some other food which she offered to the children, she

  43. 1 gave them some other food as well, yes.

    2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I note the time, Your Honour.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Do you have many more

    4 questions?

    5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I have several questions plus

    6 a short video, so it may be appropriate to take a

    7 break.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we will

    9 adjourn now for 30 minutes.

    10 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

    11 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz, we will go on,

    13 continuing in open session, I assume.

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour.

    15 (The witness entered court)


    17 Q. Now, Madam, we will continue where we left

    18 off, and that is at the house of Anto Papic.

    19 While you were at the house of Anto Papic,

    20 did there come a time that several of the Muslim men

    21 were asked to do something, and if so, could you tell

    22 us what?

    23 A. I did not understand the question.

    24 Q. While you and your family were at the house

    25 of Anto Papic, you stated that there were several

  44. 1 Muslim families also at the house of Anto Papic. Did

    2 there come a time that some of these Muslim men were

    3 asked to leave the house to do something?

    4 A. The same day, on the 16th of April, you

    5 mean? In the evening, towards dusk, when we had

    6 arrived; is that what you're asking me about?

    7 Q. At any time during your stay at the Papic

    8 house.

    9 A. That the men, the Muslims, asked to do

    10 something, that they should do something or ...

    11 Q. Let me ask you this: While you were at the

    12 Anto Papic house, did you see any of your Croatian

    13 neighbours there?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Who did you see?

    16 A. I saw Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic in front

    17 of us, as soon as we arrived. Livancic Jozo was there

    18 too, but I didn't see him after that.

    19 Q. The next day, did you see any additional

    20 Croatian neighbours at or near the Anto Papic house?

    21 A. The following day --

    22 Q. Yes.

    23 A. -- when dawn broke, yes. There was a window

    24 in the room, and I saw in the yard Nenad Santic. There

    25 were other soldiers there as well of the HVO.

  45. 1 Q. Could you tell us who Nenad Santic was?

    2 A. He was a company commander, captain in the

    3 HVO.(redacted)

    4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Again, with the assistance of

    5 the usher, could the usher have the witness look at the

    6 map of Ahmici, which is 273.

    7 Q. Would you point to the house of Nenad Santic,

    8 if you can find it there?

    9 A. May I pick up the photograph to have a better

    10 look?

    11 Q. Yes, of course.

    12 A. Nenad Santic's house, you enter it this way

    13 (indicating). There it is. That's where it stands.

    14 Q. Nenad Santic, is he related to any of the

    15 individuals that you have already mentioned in your

    16 testimony today?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Who is he related to?

    19 A. He is related to Drago Josipovic.

    20 Q. What is that relationship?

    21 A. Drago Josipovic's wife Slavica is Nenad

    22 Santic's sister.

    23 Q. Do you know whether or not Slavica belonged

    24 to the HVO?

    25 A. She dealt with that sort of thing a great

  46. 1 deal, and on one occasion, when we went to work, as the

    2 buses were not working, we waited at the bus stop to

    3 get somebody to take us to work, and without thinking

    4 anything bad, I had the best intentions, I wanted to

    5 get in her car, but she pushed me away from the

    6 doorway, and she says, "You balija can't come in

    7 here." She took in an elderly woman, a cleaning woman,

    8 in Vitez, she worked in a work organisation, and she

    9 invited her into the car, and she said, "She can come

    10 in, but not you." So I stayed at the bus stop alone.

    11 Q. Now, you said you saw Nenad Santic in the

    12 Anto Papic yard.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. What do you recall of what he did or said

    15 that day?

    16 A. I did not hear what he said. He was outside

    17 with his soldiers, but from amongst them, Anto Papic

    18 went into the house straightaway, and he said the

    19 following: That the men should get up and go and pick

    20 up our dead.

    21 Q. Did the men, the Muslim men, do that? Did

    22 they leave the house, the Anto Papic house?

    23 A. Yes, yes.

    24 Q. Did those Muslim men return?

    25 A. Yes.

  47. 1 Q. Several hours later?

    2 A. That's right.

    3 Q. Would you tell us when and how you and your

    4 family left the Anto Papic house?

    5 A. When the people who went to pick up the dead

    6 returned -- I can't tell you exactly what time it was,

    7 whether it was 11.00 or what the time was but somewhere

    8 in that region -- when they returned, Anto Papic said

    9 that Nenad, that Nenad had said -- this is what Anto

    10 Papic said: "Nenad has ordered you to go to Zume. A

    11 bus will be waiting for you there to take you to

    12 Zenica."

    13 Q. Then did you and the others leave the Anto

    14 Papic house as you were ordered?

    15 A. Yes, yes.

    16 Q. Where did you go?

    17 A. We went up towards the main asphalt road

    18 leading to Travnik, towards Vitez. That is to say,

    19 towards the main road going to Vitez.

    20 Q. When you reached the main road, did you see

    21 anything?

    22 A. At the very exit where this road ends, I saw

    23 a tank go by. We asked assistance from the tank. This

    24 is what -- we made signs to the tank to stop, and the

    25 tank stopped.

  48. 1 As we don't know -- can't speak English or

    2 German, he asked us something, we didn't understand

    3 him, but we asked assistance, we asked them to evacuate

    4 us from that spot, but we weren't able to make

    5 ourselves understood. Then one soldier from within the

    6 tank got out of the tank and told us -- and I'll get

    7 up, if I may? I apologise for doing so, but I would

    8 like to show you. He said, "Has the HVO taken you

    9 all?" And we said "Yes." We thought that these people

    10 would help us. Unfortunately, they didn't help us.

    11 The tank moved on and we followed it as fast

    12 as we could. When it was between Drago Josipovic's

    13 house and another house, there's an open space there,

    14 Drago Josipovic was standing there and Anto Papic was

    15 standing there as well, and this soldier from the tank

    16 beckoned to them, to the two of them, to come up to

    17 him. This is the sign he made (indicating). Drago

    18 Josipovic and Anto Papic went up to the soldier --

    19 there's a little fence there. This is the road. We

    20 were standing on the road by the tank. There's a small

    21 hedge there. The two of them went up to this hedge.

    22 Anto Papic could speak German because he received some

    23 money from Germany by way of rent, it was a sort of

    24 pension, a pension that he received from Germany -- I

    25 used to make up the papers for him -- so he spoke

  49. 1 German. They said something, but we couldn't

    2 understand what they were saying.

    3 We saw, at the end of their conversation,

    4 that the tank had left us; that is, they withdrew --

    5 the two of them withdrew to where they were before.

    6 The tank left, and we were left standing in the road

    7 alone stranded.

    8 We moved in the direction of Zume, as Nenad

    9 had ordered, thinking that a bus would be waiting for

    10 us there. Unfortunately, what waited for us was the

    11 camp.

    12 We walked along the road, and then we turned

    13 to the right past Vidosevic Anto's house, there is a

    14 path going that way, and in that road, there is a row

    15 of houses along that path, and they took us in in one

    16 of those houses. That's it.

    17 Q. Just to clarify your testimony a little bit.

    18 Could you look at that Exhibit 273, which is the blow-up

    19 and, using the pointer, show us the route you took that

    20 day from Anto Papic's house to the house where you

    21 ended up?

    22 A. When we came out this way, we met the tank,

    23 and I told you what we asked. The tank moved forward,

    24 and we followed it this way. The tank stopped here.

    25 We were all standing around. He called to the two of

  50. 1 them, and they were standing here in this part. They

    2 came up to the soldier, talked to him in German. When

    3 they had finished their conversation -- I don't know

    4 what conclusion they had come to -- but the tank left

    5 us standing there without giving us any explanation

    6 whatsoever.

    7 We stayed standing there alone, and then we

    8 walked up the road this way and we came to this point

    9 here (indicating). Just let me study the map, if I

    10 may, for one second? Yes, that's all right. As I say,

    11 we came to this corner here where we turned right, and

    12 we were taken into one of these houses. I don't know

    13 which one. This is a new house, it belongs to Ivo

    14 Vidovic, and the two here, I don't really remember

    15 which house we were placed in because I was busy

    16 thinking about other things. I had other things on my

    17 mind.

    18 Q. Now, again with the --

    19 A. But they placed us in one of those houses.

    20 Q. Thank you. With the help of the usher,

    21 perhaps you could take the green marker and draw a line

    22 from Anto Papic's house to the house you arrived at,

    23 showing the route you took to get from Anto Papic's

    24 house to that house in Santici?

    25 A. Anto Papic's house to their so-called -- I

  51. 1 don't know. They had some kind of headquarters, the

    2 HVO, over there. It used to be a store. But at that

    3 time it wasn't a store. That is where they were

    4 staying. So from Anto Papic's house all the way up to

    5 this place where they were staying, right?

    6 Q. Yes, if you could, please?

    7 A. (Marks). I don't know where we were taken in

    8 exactly, whether in one or the other house, but it was

    9 here.

    10 Q. Could you put an "X" where you saw Anto Papic

    11 and Drago Josipovic speaking to the tank driver?

    12 A. Yes. (Marks) That's where they were. They

    13 came up to this point here, and they were standing

    14 there when he beckoned to them and when he asked them

    15 to come up to him. This is a hedge and this is the

    16 asphalt road.

    17 Q. Were Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic in a

    18 uniform at the time or in uniforms at that time?

    19 A. Yes, and with weapons.

    20 Q. Now, as you walked down to that HVO

    21 headquarters, as you called it, that shop in Santici,

    22 could you see the condition of the village of Ahmici

    23 from the road as you walked?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Could you describe what you saw?

  52. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. What did you see?

    3 A. I saw that the Muslim houses had all been

    4 burnt. Only the roof to Fahrudin Ahmic's house was

    5 intact at that time. Everything else had been burnt.

    6 Q. Now, when you entered the house in Santici,

    7 the HVO headquarters, what did you see there?

    8 A. We saw the room, there was some vinyl tiles

    9 on the floor, and the Muslims went into the room. They

    10 were full of fear. There were boys there, little --

    11 bigger boys. (redacted)

    12 (redacted) and that my other neighbours,

    13 the men, had been killed, and the wives were in that

    14 room. All of us were sad. Everybody was crying. Some

    15 people were sitting round the wall. We all sat down on

    16 the floor. We were too tired and weary and didn't feel

    17 like anything.

    18 Q. Did something happen while you were there,

    19 something that you recall?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Tell us about that. What happened?

    22 A. Two HVO soldiers entered the room. They had

    23 the black socks over their heads with just slits for

    24 the eyes. All you could see were their eyes. One of

    25 them was fairly tall, the other one was a little

  53. 1 shorter in build, and as we knew him personally, we

    2 concluded that it was Nikica Plavcic. We called him

    3 "Nikica Slikica," slikica being a picture, and he was

    4 a photographer, in fact.

    5 The tall one entered the room where we were

    6 located. I'm going to show you -- I apologise, but I'm

    7 going to demonstrate how this went -- he entered the

    8 room and he looked around, like this.

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted) he said, "You, you, you, you, you, letís

    11 go."(redacted) and she said

    12 "Please don't take him away. He has a bad kidney and

    13 he has to have dialysis. Please don't take him away."

    14 "Don't worry about that," they said, "He'll be cured

    15 very quickly." Ramic Zenur, his brother Amir, and

    16 Mr. Engineer Heleg Munib went out.

    17 A little boy from Loncari, he was fairly tall

    18 and thin, he managed, as the door was here and the

    19 women had lined up against this door, when he left, he

    20 hid behind the women and crouched down. That's how he

    21 stayed. He stayed alive by crouching and hiding behind

    22 the line of women.

    23 Fahrudin's father, Hasim, Munib Heleg got up

    24 and the two brothers, they left following them. They

    25 went in the direction of Slamo, the late Slamo, Mujo

  54. 1 Dedic, Fariz, Siljak -- I'll remember his name in a

    2 little while -- but that's where they were taken.

    3 Nobody knows what happened to them.

    4 Q. Did Hasim and the other Muslim men who were

    5 taken, did they return at any time?

    6 A. No, never.

    7 Q. Did (redacted), ever find out what

    8 happened to her husband, (redacted)?

    9 A. Since we were imprisoned there, there were

    10 babies, and we tried to ask UNPROFOR for help because

    11 UNPROFOR was going up and down this road. Women with

    12 small babies would go out when this UNPROFOR would come

      1. by, but it was all in vain. (redacted) stood there at the

    14 door. I was next to her. There were more of us

    15 there. We were waiting for some kind of help.

    16 After some time, Nikica Plavcic came, and the

    17 women asked him, "Please, don't you see that we have

    18 babies? The babies are hungry. Can you do something?

    19 Can you have us evacuated?" He looked at us and he

    20 said, "Well, let her go there to the road." He was

    21 pointing at me. He said, "She can stop a vehicle and

    22 you can go." I said, "I didn't bring anyone here, and

    23 it is not up to me to stop UNPROFOR."

    24 (redacted) asked him, "Nikica, please. Where is

    25 my (redacted)? Please tell me. Where did they go?" He

  55. 1 said, "Don't worry. They were taken to Busovaca."

    2 Again, a bit of time went by, and again

    3 (redacted) said "Nikica, please, tell me where is my

    4 (redacted) Please." He said, "Well, heíll come (redacted)

    5 (redacted)was impatient. She was on very good terms with

    6 his late mother, Nikica's late mother. "Nikica,

    7 please." His mother had died of cancer. "Nikica,

    8 please, I beseech you, in the name of your dead

    9 mother. You know that we were very good friends. Tell

    10 me, where is my (redacted)." He looked at her and said,

    11 "Orders were issued and they were all killed." Then

    12 we withdrew and sat on those plastic tiles down there.

    13 Q. Where were you taken -- let me ask you this:

    14 How long did you spend at that house in Santici?

    15 A. Well, we were brought there on the 17th. I

    16 think it was around noon. That was a Saturday. We

    17 spent the night there, the night between Saturday and

    18 Sunday, that is.

    19 Q. How did it come about that you left that

    20 house and where did you go?

    21 A. In the morning, they were discussing

    22 something amongst themselves, I don't know what they

    23 were talking about, but at any rate, they told us

    24 again, "Go to the station and you'll go to Zenica."

    25 Q. Before we leave that house, let me ask you

  56. 1 just a couple more questions. Do you know a man by the

    2 name of Abdulah Ahmic?

    3 A. Yes, certainly.

    4 Q. Did you see him at that house in Santici

    5 while you were there?

    6 A. Yes, he came there.

    7 Q. What did he look like when you saw him there?

    8 A. Terrible. Terrible. He looked terrible.

    9 Q. Could you be more specific? What did you see

    10 with regard to any injuries?

    11 A. Yes, he came and he was sitting right in

    12 front of me. He was all dirty. His head was stained

    13 by blood a bit and his head was swollen. He was a

    14 sight, really. He looked terrible.

    15 Q. Did you see any children who were not

    16 accompanied by parents or adults?

    17 A. Yes, yes, yes. (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 Q. Do you know the Zec family?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Did you see any member of the Zec family at

    23 that house?

    24 A. Yes, the little Melisa. Melisa is her name.

    25 A pretty little girl, pretty. She was there, not her

  57. 1 brother.

    2 Q. You say her brother was not there with her?

    3 A. Yes, he was not there with us.

    4 Q. Now, where did you and the others go when you

    5 left the house on Sunday?

    6 A. Where we went, is that what you're saying?

    7 Would you please repeat your question?

    8 Q. Yes. Where did you go when you left the

    9 house on Sunday, you and the others?

    10 A. We went to the railway station, we call it

    11 the Kompanija, and they put us up at the school in

    12 Dubravica.

    13 Q. By "they" do you mean the HVO?

    14 A. Yes. Certainly, yes. They were the ones who

    15 commanded us.

    16 Q. How did you get from the house to the

    17 Dubravica school?

    18 A. On foot.

    19 Q. How long did you spend at the Dubravica

    20 school?

    21 A. Until the 1st of May.

    22 Q. Do you remember how you were released from

    23 the Dubravica school?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Tell us how that happened.

  58. 1 A. A girl came from Geneva, a pretty girl, she

    2 had a braid. Also an interpreter called Alma. They

    3 came one day, and we thought that all of us would get

    4 out, that we would leave the camp. Unfortunately, we

    5 received the news that we couldn't, that we would be

    6 staying there. What the reason was for that I do not

    7 know. I do know that on the next day, Alma, this

    8 interpreter, showed up again, a blonde girl, pretty,

    9 with freckles on her face. She said, "Today you will

    10 be getting out of here," and we were happy, of course.

    11 Q. Do you recall whether or not any of this was

    12 videotaped or put on a camera?

    13 A. Oh, yes, yes. When we were supposed to get

    14 out, we were supposed to give them some kind of

    15 signatures. I was staying in this room with my mother

    16 and my children, and I was the first one there. The

    17 door was there and then I was right next to the door,

    18 and next to me was a refugee from Prijedor, and also an

    19 old Granny with her daughter and her granddaughter.

    20 Her sons had also been killed.

    21 When they came in and asked for us to come

    22 and give these signatures, we were the first to go, my

    23 children, my mother and I, and we were afraid. I

    24 didn't know where we were going.

    25 They said, "Come along," and we followed

  59. 1 them. We walked into a room. There was a table there,

    2 and Ivanka Miskovic was sitting there. She had a

    3 typewriter, and she was a typist. She worked in

    4 Veternica. We knew each other very well, but that

    5 morning she didn't know me. She asked me what my name

    6 was, what my children's names were, what my mother's

    7 name was, things like that. We did that.

    8 By her was Nikica Plavcic, like this. Brown

    9 hair, pretty tall. He wasn't fat. Sort of elegant.

    10 In a HVO uniform. When I signed this paper he said to

    11 me, "Madam, you can go to your home now, there's no

    12 problem whatsoever." I said to him, "Sir, you killed

    13 all of my own. You burned down everything of my own

    14 and now you're sending me home." "Just a minute, let

    15 me see what we're going to do with such cases." He

    16 went out.

    17 When he came back, I think that there were

    18 some American journalists there with him. I don't know

    19 if there were three -- there were three of them there.

    20 I don't know. I saw cameras. I saw them, a blonde

    21 lady, kind and nice. They walked in and they started

    22 filming us straightaway.

    23 My daughter started to cry. She asked me how

    24 I felt at the camp, and I answered to her, "Madam, you

    25 know what it's like in a camp. A camp is a camp. I'm

  60. 1 allergic to dust and look at me, I'm all in blisters.

    2 Look." I said, "I don't want to talk about the food

    3 and all the details." Mr. Plavcic said, "What do you

    4 mean? We treated you nicely." I said, "No. No way.

    5 You didn't treat us to anything. What you treated us

    6 to were the food that Muslims from Novaci, above the

    7 school, brought to us," and they allowed them to bring

    8 it in because there were babies, there were a lot of

    9 people there, there were men, women, elderly people,

    10 people who were weak, and these people really did their

    11 best to send things to us. We would get something, my

    12 mother and I, but we gave it to my children so that

    13 they could survive.

    14 Q. At this time I would ask if we could view the

    15 video, which would be the next Prosecution Exhibit. We

    16 do have a translation prepared for the voices that you

    17 hear on the video, although it's very disconnected and

    18 difficult to follow in terms of the voices, but the

    19 visual, I think, is what's important.

    20 A. May I ask something? Is there anyone who

    21 gets killed on this film? Will I see anything like

    22 that, like people getting killed?

    23 Q. No, no.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be marked 277,

    25 and the transcript 277A.

  61. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?

    2 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, we would like to

    3 ask the Prosecutor to tell us when this tape was

    4 filmed, and who filmed it and when. Thank you.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. That's an apposite

    6 question.

    7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: To the best of my knowledge,

    8 this tape was filmed at, or on or about the time of the

    9 release from the Dubravica school, so it would be late

    10 April, early May of 1993. It appears to be a film

    11 either made by the Red Cross itself or by a news

    12 organisation. But it shows the inside of the Dubravica

    13 school, and it shows several of the detainees that this

    14 witness recognises, and it, in fact, shows this witness

    15 at the school with her children.

    16 Q. Now, witness, as you look at the film, and we

    17 have looked at this before, have we not, you and I --

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?

    19 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, the Prosecutor did

    20 not say how this tape came into his possession and how

    21 he obtained it.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz, can you tell

    23 us how you got this tape?

    24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this point I don't know

    25 exactly how we got this tape, but I can endeavour to

  62. 1 get those answers and report back.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you.

    3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: What I am confident in is

    4 that like a photograph, this videotape can be

    5 identified by this witness who was there to observe the

    6 events.

    7 Q. Again, witness, in answer to your question

    8 earlier about seeing unpleasant scenes of death, no,

    9 this will not have any of that. This is a videotape

    10 that you and I have already looked at.

    11 A. Okay.

    12 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Moskowitz, can we see

    13 this in open session, this videotape?

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will see the face of

    15 several people that we probably don't want to have

    16 shown in open session, unless the video is going to

    17 somehow not be broadcast outside this room.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: At the moment, it will, so --

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think it ought to be in

    20 closed session then.

    21 (Closed session)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  63. 1












    13 Pages 4147 to 4264 redacted in closed session






    19 --- Whereupon the proceedings adjourned

    20 at 5.50 p.m., to be reconvened on

    21 Friday, the 9th day of October, 1998, at

    22 9.00 a.m.