1 Friday, 9th October, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours,
6 case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
7 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
8 Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic, also known
9 as "Vlado."
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
11 Mr. Smith?
12 MR. SMITH: The Prosecutor wants to call
13 three witnesses this morning, Mr. Lee Whitworth,
14 Dr. Van der Peijl, and then Witness 8. I ask that
15 Mr. Whitworth be called.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina? It's not
17 our fault. All the accused should be here on time. If
18 they are not on time, we will start, as long as some of
19 them are here.
20 MR. SMITH: Are all the accused here, Your
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
23 MR. SMITH: I call Mr. Lee Whitworth.
24 (The witness entered court)
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Will you
1 please make the solemn declaration?
2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
7 Mr. Smith?
8 WITNESS: LEE WHITWORTH
9 Examined by Mr. Smith:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Whitworth. Can you hear
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You are currently a school teacher in
14 England; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Prior to that, you used to be in the British
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. You served in Bosnia in 1993?
20 A. I did, indeed, yes.
21 Q. Which regiment did you serve with?
22 A. I served with the 1st Battalion, the Prince
23 of Wales' Own Regiment of Yorkshire.
24 Q. How long had you been in the British army
25 prior to that?
1 A. Approximately three years, sir.
2 Q. Were you on any other operational tours in
3 that time?
4 A. Prior to deploying to Bosnia, I worked in
5 Belfast for approximately seven months and was involved
6 in the OP Granby building and training phases as well.
7 Q. Can you explain what that is, please?
8 A. That is the training and deployment for the
9 Gulf, sir.
10 Q. What period were you in Bosnia in 1993?
11 A. From approximately the middle of May until, I
12 think it was, the beginning of November, middle of
14 Q. What was your rank?
15 A. I was a captain.
16 Q. Had you been to officer training school in
17 Sandhurst, in England, when you first joined the
18 British army?
19 A. Yes, sir. That's correct.
20 Q. Can you tell the Court your main job when you
21 were in Bosnia and where you were based?
22 A. Yes, sir. Initially, I was deployed as the
23 regimental signals officer which was responsible for
24 setting up and running the headquarters element. Very
25 quickly after our arrival, Colonel Alastair started to
1 understand the need for good liaison on the ground, and
2 so he tested myself and a few of the other officers as
3 liaison officers in order to build a rapport with the
4 locals in the Lasva Valley area. I was retasked from
5 regimental signals officer as a liaison officer in the
6 Lasva Valley.
7 Q. You commenced your tour in May, and you took
8 over from the Cheshire Regiment that had just completed
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. What was the specific nature of your job in
12 relation of liaison? What types of people were you
13 aiming at liaising with and the purpose for that?
14 A. We were really there to facilitate the UNHCR,
15 the UN Mission in the Lasva Valley, and we really
16 perceived that as taking form of establishing a rapport
17 and relationship with all senior people on the ground
18 in the Lasva Valley area; political, military, civilian
19 leaders. Establishing a rapport and relationship with
20 them would then allow us to support and facilitate the
21 movement of UNHCR vehicles in and out of the area.
22 Q. What was the area that you covered, what
24 A. There were four liaison officers. My area of
25 responsibility was from Travnik through the Vitez Lasva
1 Valley as far as the Busovaca area.
2 Q. You met and liaised with military leaders
3 from the Bosnian army and the HVO; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct, sir, civilian,
5 political, and military leaders on both sides.
6 Q. Whilst you were doing this during this time,
7 did you come to meet and know Vladimir Santic?
8 A. Yes. I think I met him on two occasions.
9 Q. What was the first date that you met Vladimir
11 A. It was quite early on in my tour, around the
12 end of May, beginning of June, and I was trying to
13 establish key personalities in the Lasva Valley area.
14 On this particular occasion, I had gone looking for
15 senior Military Police representatives in the Vitez
16 area. I first met Mr. Santic under the guise of being
17 a senior military policeman in Vitez.
18 Q. Of which military group?
19 A. He was lodged at 4th Battalion Military
20 Police headquarters in the Hotel Vitez when I met him.
21 Q. That was with the HVO?
22 A. That's the HVO, yes, sir.
23 Q. What gave you reason to go and meet him?
24 What happened earlier that day that led you to go to
25 the Hotel Vitez?
1 A. As I said, I think earlier, during the
2 beginning of my tour, I was spending a lot of time
3 driving around the area, introducing myself to people,
4 just trying to become familiar with the circumstances
5 and the situation that people were in and trying to
6 identify who the key personalities were in the area.
7 I'd happened along the road heading towards
8 Zenica, and I came across a building that we came to
9 know as the Swiss Cottage or the Bungalow. On the
10 front porch of that building, there was a group of
11 about eight to ten soldiers, quite distinctly dressed.
12 So I took the opportunity to pull up and try to engage
13 them in conversation. They were not very welcoming at
14 first. They obviously weren't interested in speaking
15 to me at the time.
16 After about a 20-minute, 30-minute
17 conversation, I said to them that it would be useful
18 for me in my role as a liaison officer, in order to
19 help the humanitarian mission, if I was to introduce
20 myself to their commander.
21 There was a gentleman who kept coming out the
22 back of the Bungalow who was obviously more senior than
23 the young gentlemen I was talking to in the front, and
24 he was not very pleased about the fact that they were
25 having a general conversation with me.
1 Nevertheless, they said, "You need to speak
2 to our boss. He's a chap called Pasko. You'll find
3 him down in Vitez." It was with that that I set off to
4 Vitez looking for the leader of these group of
5 gentlemen who had described themselves as an elite
6 Military Police unit that had been active and involved
7 in all the military successes in the Lasva Valley area.
8 Q. Can you describe, more specifically, any type
9 of weaponry that was at the Bungalow and the types of
10 uniforms they were wearing?
11 A. Yes. They were very distinctly dressed.
12 They were all dressed in black. They were young,
13 between the age, I would say, of 25, 26, fit,
14 athletic-looking chaps, predominantly dressed in black,
15 as opposed to the normals of Croatian-type, U.S.
16 uniforms that were common. They were all wearing small
17 arms, usually one or two large knives. There were
18 plenty of weapons propped up in the doorway and on the
19 inside of the building, wearing bandannas.
20 They were proud of this elite Military Police
21 status that they had. They were all very confidant at
22 the time. They were proud of the fact that they had
23 been involved in the military successes that they
24 reiterated to me at the time that had taken place in
25 the Lasva Valley area.
1 Q. Once that was explained to you, that they
2 were proud of the fact that they were involved in the
3 military successes in the Lasva Valley area, did you
4 follow up on that comment?
5 A. I attempted to do so, yes. It's obviously a
6 difficult situation. It was quite clear to me that one
7 of the gentleman there, who was obviously the senior
8 rank present, wasn't happy about them disclosing any
9 information to me. It was something that I approached
10 very delicately, and I said to them, "You mean like
11 operations like Ahmici?" They didn't deny or
12 acknowledge that, but they said -- the phrase that they
13 used was, "We said all the military successes." That
14 intimated to me that that was an indirect
15 acknowledgement of the fact that they had been involved
16 in Ahmici.
17 Q. Why did you mention Ahmici? What was your
18 knowledge, just briefly, of what had occurred there?
19 A. It was, I think, six weeks prior to that
20 particular incident. It was an event that had,
21 obviously, stuck in everybody's minds of the Cheshires
22 and the Prince of Wales' Own. It was something we were
23 all aware of in the background; that really was quite a
24 key operation in the Lasva Valley. It was the most
25 obvious one, the most striking one, to ask them about
1 at the time.
2 Q. About how far was this Bungalow from Ahmici?
3 A. Approximately 500, 600 metres. There's a
4 wood that separates the area of Ahmici from the
5 Bungalow area, so it was quite close.
6 Q. Towards Vitez or away from Vitez?
7 A. It was away from Vitez, if I remember
9 Q. You said that these young men were wearing
10 black uniforms. Did you notice whether they had any
11 patches on?
12 A. I didn't notice any insignia -- oh, I did,
13 actually, report that some of them had what looked like
14 basic insignia on their arms, and they referred to
15 themselves as the Jokers. "The Jokeri" was the name
16 that they gave to me at the time.
17 Whilst I was there, I had a Muslim
18 interpreter, and she was very fearful. She said,
19 "These gentlemen were very dangerous." I think I
20 mentioned earlier that when I initially tried to make
21 conversation with them, they were quite aggressive and
22 focused in on my Muslim interpreter at the time. It
23 was only after I had gone to considerable lengths to
24 put them at ease that they actually managed to converse
25 with me. But she impressed upon me that she was
1 fearful of them and that she'd heard of this name
2 before and that they were involved in several military
3 operations in the Lasva Valley area.
4 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would ask that
5 Exhibit 119 be produced to the witness.
6 Q. Can you tell the Court whether you can
7 identify that building in the photograph?
8 A. I can, indeed, yes, and the gentlemen out
9 front. That was the building we referred to as the
10 Swiss Cottage or the Swiss Bungalow. The balcony on
11 the front there is where I had the conversation with
12 the chaps. There's a large square door there.
13 Q. Could you see inside the square door when you
14 had the conversation with these men?
15 A. It was dark inside, but it just had wooden
16 furniture and benches lining the sides and weapons
17 propped up. It was quite a spacious building. I don't
18 think there was anything else on the ground floor.
19 Q. This conversation went for about 20 minutes;
20 is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you notice whether there was any damage
23 to the building when you arrived?
24 A. No. That didn't appear to be the case. I
25 saw no signs of small arms or any other damage there on
1 the building.
2 Q. After you left this group and went to Hotel
3 Vitez, what was your impression of the group? What
4 type of group, in military terms, would you classify
5 them as?
6 A. They seemed very well-motivated. They were
7 very well-equipped. They were very confidant in the
8 fact that -- they were very confidant in their own
9 ability. I'd come away with an impression that this
10 was a group of chaps who were, actually, involved in
11 offensive action in the Lasva Valley area, that they
12 were directly responsible, or I was assuming they were
13 directly responsible for the offensive action in that
15 Q. You were told that their commander was Pasko,
16 and you went to Vitez. What was your aim at that
18 A. Simply to introduce myself to their
19 commander. They had told me they were an elite
20 Military Police unit, and I'd said to them that it
21 would be useful, therefore, if I was to introduce
22 myself to their commander. They had reluctantly given
23 me this name, and I set off into the Vitez area looking
24 for a senior military policeman, this chap called
1 I went to the Hotel Vitez, and I spoke to a
2 couple of members of the HVO there. I told them I had
3 this conversation with the Jokeri. It was still during
4 the early days of my role as a liaison officer, so I
5 sort of talked them around to the idea that it was in
6 the interests of everybody in the Lasva Valley area
7 that I meet all the key personnel. I said, "Could I
8 speak to the senior Military Police commander?"
9 I sat down. After awhile, a gentleman came
10 out who introduced himself to me as Vlado. He was
11 introduced to me as the senior Military Police
12 commander in the area, but no specific title was given
13 to me at that time. He just came out in response to my
14 request for a senior military policeman.
15 Q. Stopping there. Why did you go to Hotel
16 Vitez? What did you believe Hotel Vitez to be?
17 A. Well, I had already been introduced to one or
18 two characters in the Hotel Vitez. I was aware that
19 that's where the HVO military command was situated, and
20 I was looking for a Military Police commander. It
21 seemed common sense to go to the hotel.
22 There is, actually, a big sign above the door
23 that says "4th Battalion Military Police Headquarters,"
24 so it was just common sense, really.
25 Q. Do you remember the first person who you
1 first asked at Hotel Vitez in relation to your request
2 to see the commander of the Jokers?
3 A. I think it was a chap called Darko Gelic, who
4 was later tasked as Colonel Blaskic's personal liaison
5 officer. I got to know Darko throughout the following
6 months quite well, in fact.
7 Q. When you met this man that came out in
8 response to your request, can you give a description of
10 A. Yes. Stockily built, going very thin on the
11 top, white-greyish hair, about 5'10".
12 Q. Do you remember what he was wearing?
13 A. If I remember correctly, he was wearing a
14 Military Police -- he had combat trousers, a green
15 shirt on. My memory is a little bit hazy of such
16 details. I have no reason to think that he wasn't the
17 military policeman that I'd asked for at the time.
18 Q. Did he introduce himself?
19 A. In a very cursory manner. He was very
20 disinterested in me. I did try and win him over. I
21 sort of chatted to him. I did most of the talking. He
22 was very incommunicative, didn't really see me as
23 anybody of any importance and didn't really see the
24 need for him to establish a rapport with me.
25 For the 10 minutes, 15 minutes that I was
1 talking to him, I did most of the talking and I was
2 trying to explain the situation and the merits of the
3 UN and my role in that and how I might be able to
4 assist him, as a policeman, in observing and
5 facilitating the UN mission in the area. He sat and
6 listened, was pretty unforthcoming.
7 Q. Did you mention to him why you were there,
8 the fact that you had been to the Bungalow earlier?
9 A. I did, indeed. I said that I'd spoke to a
10 Military Police group. That was always a way of
11 brokering a conversation with people, in that people
12 were always very distrustful of why you wanted to
13 know. So it was always useful to have a name to be
14 able to say, "I have already spoken to so and so."
15 Yes, I did mention that at the time.
16 Q. Did you mention the name "The Jokers" at the
18 A. If I remember correctly, I did so, yes.
19 Q. What did he say in response to that?
20 A. I don't remember him saying anything, if I
21 was to be honest.
22 Q. He was fairly reluctant to speak to you for
23 that ten minutes?
24 A. Yes, he was. I would say he was very
25 unforthcoming, didn't really want to make conversation
1 with me.
2 Q. After you left that meeting, were you
3 subsequently introduced to a person called Pasko?
4 A. Yes. I think it was a month, two months
5 later, I was formally introduced to a man called Pasko
6 Ljubicic by Darko Gelic, the liaison officer, who
7 introduced him as head of the 4th Military Police
9 Q. From your experience and observations in the
10 Lasva Valley over that six months, where did Santic sit
11 in comparison to Pasko Ljubicic? Where did Vladimir
12 Santic sit?
13 A. At the time when I initially met Mr. Santic,
14 it seemed obvious to me that he was subordinate to
15 Pasko, this chief of the Military Police Battalion. We
16 weren't exactly sure in what role he was subordinate,
17 whether he was within the 4th Military Battalion or
18 maybe commanding one of the sub-units within the 4th
19 Military Battalion.
20 I was aware, speaking to people at the time,
21 that Mr. Santic was a local man, local to Vitez, but at
22 that particular time, we didn't really know where he
23 was, other than being, say, somewhere underneath the
24 command structure -- within the command structure of
25 Pasko Ljubicic.
1 Q. Can you explain the structure of the Military
2 Police Battalion, the units that it was divided up
3 into, and the general area that you believed it to
4 cover, the 4th Military Police Battalion?
5 A. This is information that became apparent to
6 us throughout the tour. It wasn't initially apparent
7 on my first meeting with Mr. Santic, but it became
8 obvious that the Military Police sub-units, as we
9 referred to them, were based on municipalities, and
10 that the 4th Military Police battalion actually covered
11 a large area. The area it covered, I think,
12 corresponded with the op zone, the HVO Operational
13 Zone, included places like Vares, Zepce, Busovaca,
14 Travnik, Novi Travnik, Vitez.
15 The information and conversations that I had
16 throughout suggested that the 4th Military Battalion
17 was also spread out over a similar area. In each of
18 those municipalities, there would be a sub-unit, a
19 company group, we would call them, in each of those.
20 So there would be a company group within Vitez, a
21 company group of the 4th Battalion within Vares, within
22 Zepce, within Travnik.
23 Q. Pasko Ljubicic was introduced to you as the
24 commander of that whole area?
25 A. He was, indeed, sir, yes. At the time when I
1 met the Jokeri, he was just introduced to me by the
2 Jokeri as their commander. That was all they said. Of
3 course, that's an assumption that the Pasko that they
4 were referring to, because they didn't give me a second
5 name, was the Pasko Ljubicic who was commander of the
6 4th Battalion.
7 Q. In the Military Police company that was
8 located in the Vitez municipality, from your
9 observations and your dealings with the HVO in '92,
10 '93, where would you put Vladimir Santic?
11 A. Well, it's commonplace for a headquarters
12 unit, for a battalion headquarters, to be co-located
13 with one of the company groups for its own protection
14 and the facilities that are, therefore, provided. I
15 was aware that Mr. Santic was within the HVO structure
16 in the hotel.
17 At the time when I actually met him, it
18 wasn't clear whether he was a company commander of the
19 local Vitez Military Police situated in the hotel or
20 whether he was actually part of Pasko Ljubicic's
21 battalion headquarters staff and subordinate to him in
22 that way, located in the Hotel Vitez. But knowing that
23 he was a local Vitez man, I wouldn't like to say,
25 Q. You mentioned each municipality had a
1 company-sized unit of the Military Police based there.
2 About what size would that be in relation to the Vitez
3 Military Police?
4 A. A company group normally would be,
5 approximately, 120, 140 soldiers in a conventional army
6 grouping, but, obviously, circumstances are very
7 different. From what I saw, driving up and down 12, 14
8 hours a day in the Lasva Valley, I would say the
9 numbers of a Military Police company compared
10 favourably with that. So you were looking at 100-plus
11 troops within a Military Police company.
12 There were similar sized groups within each
13 area; Busovaca, Travnik, Novi Travnik. It also
14 appeared, but it's difficult to put an exact figure on
15 it because, of course, all the troops are on duty, and
16 very rarely would you see groups of more than two or
17 three together at a time, but, obviously, driving up
18 and down the valley every day, you're sampling or
19 you're seeing small groups here and there, and they
20 are, obviously, representative of those who are on duty
21 for that particular time of day.
22 There were instances when I saw 30-plus
23 together when senior dignitaries were visiting, like
24 Cedric Thornbird, at the Nova Bila Hospital. It was
25 obvious that they were a quite sizeable number, and it
1 was reasonably comparable to that 100-plus that you
2 would see in a normal company group.
3 Q. What size was the Jokers, the special elite
4 Military Police unit that you were told about?
5 A. From the initial conversation I'd had with
6 them, they said they were of a number of approximately
7 30-plus, that there were quite a number of them. That
8 would be a platoon, small sub-unit size, a sub-unit of a
9 company. In a company group, you would find four of
10 those grouped under a company commander. They were,
11 obviously, a small unit within the Military Police
13 Q. When you spoke to the group of men that
14 claimed that they were the Jokers, they boasted about
15 the fact that they were involved in all the successful
16 military operations in the Lasva Valley. Can you tell
17 the Court, based on your observations in Bosnia for
18 that six months, whether or not a person in Pasko
19 Ljubicic's position, and also Vladimir Santic's
20 position, would have necessarily needed to be involved
21 in the planning and organising of those operations?
22 A. Can you make specific reference to -- could
23 you ask the question again, please?
24 Q. You said that the Jokers were an active
25 military unit, you thought, and they claimed that
1 they -- in fact, they were involved in all the
2 successful military operations in the Lasva Valley.
3 Can you tell the Court, based on your opinion
4 down there, whether or not it would be necessary for a
5 person at the level of Vladimir Santic or Pasko
6 Ljubicic to be involved in the planning and organising
7 of any of the significant military operations?
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic?
9 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 Mr. President, I have an objection to make with regard
11 to this examination. From the direct answer given by
12 this witness, he did not differentiate between the
13 relationship of Vlado Santic and Pasko Ljubicic. He
14 did not bring Vlado Santic into any relationship with
15 the latter, and he said that he belonged to the local
16 structures within the HVO, the command of which was
17 located at the Hotel Vitez.
18 Therefore, a question of this nature suggests
19 that between these two individuals there was a
20 necessary link which, in that case, makes up a chain.
21 I think that by saying so, the witness is being
22 suggested something which he did not previously state
23 when speaking about the relationship between the two
24 individuals mentioned.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. I wonder
1 whether, Mr. Smith, you could rephrase your question.
2 I see a lot of merit in the objection of Counsel
4 MR. SMITH: Perhaps if I can try and ask the
5 witness if he could establish that relation between
6 Pasko Ljubicic and Vladimir Santic.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Try it and refrain from
8 asking hypothetical questions. Thank you.
9 MR. SMITH:
10 Q. You said that Darko Gelic was the liaison
11 officer for Mr. Blaskic; is that correct?
12 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
13 Q. And Mr. Blaskic was the commander of the
14 third operative zone of the HVO in Central Bosnia; is
15 that correct?
16 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
17 Q. Had you dealt with Darko Gelic on a fairly
18 frequent basis as a liaison officer?
19 A. Three, four times a day on most days.
20 Q. Did he inform you of the relationship between
21 Pasko Ljubicic and Vladimir Santic?
22 A. His words were, that it was from him that he
23 said that Mr. Santic was the senior Military Police
24 commander in the Vitez area, and no specifics were
25 given other than Pasko Ljubicic was his commander as in
1 terms of the battalion commander.
2 So I think, as I said earlier, its's very
3 difficult to push for specifics, but in any normal
4 change of command in the military, there will be direct
5 communication. I think to answer the question you said
6 earlier about Jokeri involvement and any connection
7 between the two, it would be very difficult not to see
8 a connection in terms of any military operations that
9 took place in the Lasva Valley, would have been
10 strategically directed and would have had to have local
11 command involved in their occurrence in the Lasva
12 Valley area.
13 So I think -- I'm going around a long way of
14 saying I saw no direct, specific connection between the
15 two, other than to say that it was -- I was told at the
16 time that one was subordinate to the other, but how --
17 the specifics of that subordination was not made clear
18 to me at the time.
19 Q. Now I would like a video to be played,
20 Prosecution Exhibit 253. On this video, can you tell
21 the Court whether you can recognise the location and
22 any figures that appear within it?
23 A. Would you like me to ask for video to be
25 Q. If you recognise anything in the video, the
1 location or the personalities within it, if you could
2 ask for the video to be stopped. I'll just ask that
3 the usher could organise that the video appears on the
4 witness's screen. Thank you.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic.
6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, perhaps my
7 intervention has come too early, but would it be a good
8 idea for the Prosecutor to tell us where the tape is
9 from and how he came by it before we see the actual
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I mean, this was
12 already explained by the Prosecutor on a previous
13 occasion. This is already an exhibit, a Prosecution
14 Exhibit. Do you remember? You will see. If you wait
15 a few seconds, you will see.
16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes. Thank you. I apologise
18 (Videotape played)
19 THE WITNESS: Stop it there.
20 MR. SMITH:
21 Q. Who is that person in the frame?
22 A. That was a man who was formally introduced to
23 me by Darko Gelic as Pasko Ljubicic, commander of the
24 4th Battalion Military Police.
25 MR. SMITH: Could we continue with the tape,
2 (Videotape played)
3 THE WITNESS: Could you stop it there,
5 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
6 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that frame?
7 A. Bearing in mind the quality of the picture,
8 that -- I'm not as sure as I can be. That would be
9 Vladimir Santic, with his hand on his head.
10 Q. That was the person who was introduced to you
11 at the Hotel Vitez?
12 A. He was indeed, yes.
13 MR. SMITH: If you could continue the tape,
14 please, and I'll ask you a few questions after that.
15 (Videotape played)
16 MR. SMITH: If you can stop the tape now,
17 thank you.
18 Q. Could you recognise the location of where
19 that footage was taken?
20 A. Very difficult. It could possibly have been
21 in the cottage by the nature of the vertical slat
22 walls, but the quality is obviously very poor. I
23 wouldn't swear on oath to that at all, but it could
24 possibly have been inside the cottage.
25 Q. Is that because of the nature of the frame
1 within the video clip?
2 A. Yeah. It was almost vertically sided. There
3 were benches pushed up against the side. Large chunky
4 wooden furniture inside, that type of thing.
5 Q. If you could take a look around the courtroom
6 and tell the Court whether or not you could recognise
7 Vladimir Santic?
8 A. I can indeed, sir, yes.
9 Q. Could you point him out to the Court?
10 A. He's sat over there smiling at me.
11 Q. I ask the Court to accept that --
12 A. He's wearing a subtle lilac shirt with a
13 striped tie and a dark blue blazer.
14 MR. SMITH: For the record, I ask the Court
15 that the witness had identified the accused Vladimir
17 I have no further questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Smith.
19 Mr. Pavkovic?
20 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I have no
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No questions from
23 any legal Defence counsel? All right. So there will
24 be no re-examination?
25 MR. SMITH: That's correct.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So I think
2 there's no objection to the witness being released.
3 Thank you so much for coming here to give
4 evidence in court. You may now be released.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, sir.
6 (The witness withdrew)
7 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume we are now moving on
8 to the Dutch -- it will be even shorter.
9 MR. TERRIER: Exactly, Mr. President.
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. I would like
12 to ask you to read the solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 WITNESS: GERHARD VAN DER PEIJL
19 Examined by Mr. Terrier:
20 Q. Good morning, witness. Could you tell the
21 court what your name is and what your occupation is?
22 A. My name is Gerhard van der Piejl. I'm a
23 forensic scientist at the forensic science laboratory
24 of the Ministry of the Netherlands -- Ministry of
25 Justice of the Netherlands.
1 Q. Thank you. In June 1998, you carried out a
2 number of tests on items and samples that had been
3 collected in a Bosnian village, and they had been
4 transmitted to you by Mr. Prudon; is that right?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. You signed an analysis report dated 29th of
7 July, 1998. This report has been tendered as Exhibit
8 169, and I shall ask the witness that the Dutch version
9 and its translation in English be submitted to the
11 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 278,
12 278A for the English version.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Van der Peijl, while I'm
15 showing this to you, I would like to ask you whether
16 the English translation of your conclusions, to be more
17 specific, seems to be an accurate one?
18 A. In the conclusion it says, in the English
19 version, that there were no combustion enhancing
20 substances in fire samples et cetera. Actually, in the
21 Dutch version it says no accelerants were detected in
22 the samples, et cetera. That's in the conclusion.
23 Q. So you concluded that you did not find any
24 accelerants in the test?
25 A. That's the main difference. There are some
1 other smaller ones, but I don't think they are
3 Q. Well, we won't go into them then. I have
4 only one question, but it is a major one for you. It
5 is as follows: The fact that you did not detect any
6 inflammable substance during the test, does that mean
7 that no inflammable substance had been used in order to
8 fire, or to burn the place where the samples were
9 found, were collected?
10 You may not know this, and there was no
11 reason for telling you that then, but the fire took
12 place on the 16th of April, 1993. The samples were
13 collected in July, 1998. The site on which the samples
14 were collected was open -- was an open space and was
15 weather-beaten all these years.
16 A. From my -- especially from my own experience
17 but also from literature, I don't know any studies
18 about what will happen to accelerants if they are in
19 open weather places, perhaps in the ground for such a
20 long time.
21 There have been some studies, for example, on
22 microbacterial degradation of gasoline, especially in
23 Australia, and they have demonstrated that in some
24 cases there could be major degradation, but that's only
25 shorter-term studies. So I cannot say what could
1 happen with an accelerant in so long a time.
2 The thing is, though, that although I don't
3 have any studies -- or I should say I don't know, but I
4 think I -- still from my experience and my chemical
5 knowledge, I can make a conclusion.
6 There are three possibilities that I can
7 imagine where we would not find any traces of
8 accelerants today, even though they might have been
9 used five years ago for arson, and that would be for
10 the first reason -- the first reason will be that the
11 samples that have been taken were not actually samples
12 where accelerant has been present at the start. Like
13 the name says, an accelerant is used to accelerate the
14 fire. But when the fire has started, of course it can
15 go burn further on if you have wood and some our
16 combustible material. You may have even charred or
17 burned material where no accelerant is present. So
18 that depends whether people have been able to take the
19 accelerants at the place where the fire really
21 The second possibility is that -- that's all
22 assuming an accelerant was used in the first place, of
24 The second possibility is that an accelerant
25 has been used which consists of very volatile
1 components. For example, in the Netherlands we would
2 think then about mixture of alcohol. In Dutch we call
3 it bronspiritus. It's very common in the household.
4 You could have a mixture of paint thinner, some paint
5 thinners. They are very volatile. I would not expect,
6 after so long a time, that we would find any trace of
8 Normally, even after a shorter time, we find
9 traces of more -- of liquids which have less volatile
10 components in them. For example, for gasoline, over 99
11 per cent of gasoline would be evaporated after a few
12 days, but 1 per cent remaining may still lead us to
13 conclude that there has been gasoline in the sample.
14 Or with diesel fuel, that's another possibility.
15 So when I was originally asked the question
16 to look for accelerants in these samples, I said
17 already I can only find accelerants if it has been some
18 of this group. That means that if I don't find any
19 accelerants, one of the possibilities, of course, then,
20 that it's from outside of this group.
21 The third possibility, I already touched on
22 it, is there has been such heavy microbacterial
23 degradation over this long period of time, that that is
24 the reason we don't find anything.
25 So to conclude again, there are three main
1 possibilities. One is that the samples were taken not
2 at the place where the accelerant was originally used.
3 The second is that an accelerant has been used which
4 consisted of very volatile components and no less
5 volatile components have remained. The third
6 possibility is that there has been microbacterial
8 So in these three cases and perhaps more
9 but -- that's, I think what I want to say.
10 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I don't want the
11 interpreter service to be angry at me, but I'm afraid
12 we cannot understand the interpretation. And if
13 possible, we would like another interpreter to replace
14 the present one who is interpreting.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: This is the interpretation
16 from English into Croatian.
17 MR. RADOVIC: Yes, into Croatian.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: I hope somebody in the booth
19 can replace the present interpreter. Counsel Radovic,
20 do you want now -- do you want Mr. Terrier to ask again
21 the last question?
22 MR. RADOVIC: We are investing great efforts
23 to understand and follow what has been said. What we
24 did not understand, we shall clarify later on in the
1 MR. TERRIER: At any rate, I want to thank
2 the witness for what he has said. I have no further
3 questions for him.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Cross-examination of the
6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I have one
7 question, and Mr. Ranko Radovic and Ms. Jadranka
8 Slokovic-Glumac have questions.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
10 Q. Sir, I have one question for you and it is
11 the following: In the samples that you were given, and
12 which you, therefore, analysed, did you find the
13 presence of any accelerators of any kind or combustion
14 enhancing substances?
15 A. No, I did not find any presence of what we
16 call an accelerant.
17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.
19 Counsel Radovic?
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
21 Q. I shall continue the topic that my learned
22 colleague Mr. Pavkovic started.
23 The Prosecutor asked you, sir, how is it
24 possible that no combustion enhancing substances were
25 detected? As a forensic scientist, is it usual for you
1 to explain why these substances were not found, or is
2 it the job of a forensic scientist just to determine
3 whether these substances exist or not? What is the
4 basic task of a forensic scientist of your kind?
5 A. Okay. The last word in the English
6 translation is "of your kind," and that will give what
7 is my expertise. In the Netherlands we have different
8 expertise for the people who do chemical
9 investigations, that's people like me, and people who
10 do technical investigations and the investigations at
11 the scene of a possible crime.
12 In other countries, this job can be combined
13 in one person, but in the Netherlands we have decided
14 to split it up. Does that answer your question?
15 Q. No. In my country, the system is similar.
16 My question was: Is it the basic task of a forensic
17 scientist to determine whether the combustion enhancing
18 substances exist, or accelerants, or whether it is his
19 task to explain why he did not find elements of this
20 kind in the samples received?
21 A. Okay. Normally I would just make out report
22 as I have done it over here, and in the Dutch court our
23 Judges, and advocates and Prosecutors, they are aware
24 of what that means, that no -- if no accelerant has
25 been found, it definitely does not mean that no
1 accelerant has been used.
2 In this case, for this International Court, I
3 have been asked by the Prosecutor to come over here and
4 to expand on my report, to clarify that even though we
5 did not find -- we did not detect any accelerant, any
6 trace of accelerant, it definitely does not mean that
7 no accelerant has been used at the fire in the past.
8 Q. One of the reasons for which this kind of
9 conclusion is possible, and your finding is possible as
10 it stands, is that the individual taking the samples
11 might not have taken the samples from the right place.
12 Is my understanding correct?
13 A. That is correct. It could mean, for example,
14 that he could not take the samples from the right
15 place, because if the right place would have been
16 burned out completely, if there would have been a major
17 fire, that also can happen in Dutch, we might not even
18 find anything.
19 Q. Now, the individual taking the samples,
20 according to the proceedings so far, is an individual
21 who is the supreme investigator on the part of the
22 Dutch police who went on the spot, and he was informed
23 of the witness testimony when the witness said --
24 stated the spot where the burning took place.
25 In a situation of this kind, is there very
1 little probability that the sample sent to you for
2 expertise was not taken from the proper place?
3 A. This -- this person, this Mr. Prudon, is of a
4 good reputation to me from the past. As far as I know,
5 he has also been certified for the technical police to
6 do these arson investigations, and I would expect that
7 he would be able to get the most out of it. But if no
8 sample is left over from -- from an accelerant because
9 everything has been burned out, then, of course, he
10 could not have taken the sample which contains the
12 Another possibility is -- I have not seen
13 photographs of the situation -- I'll wait for a
15 I have not seen photographs of the situation
16 at the point, but I have understood that there has
17 been -- I think you call it a cave-in of the building.
18 There's a lot of rubble. In that situation that may
19 present some problems.
20 Normally what an investigator would look for
21 in the Dutch case where he normally comes in after only
22 a few days, he would look for -- for example, for
23 cardboard, or a desk office or for something else which
24 has not been burnt out completely. If that is in the
25 neighbourhood of the fire, he would look underneath,
1 for example, a table leg or something like that,
2 because there you have the best chance to find any
3 residues of an accelerant because it has been sort of
4 shielded from the heat of the fire. That's what you
5 would do in a normal situation.
6 As far as I understand, but you have here the
7 witness, I think, there was a problem in this situation
8 to do something like that.
9 Q. The other reason that you quoted, which
10 prevented results of your expertise being exact, is
11 that there was a -- that a combination was used of
12 different chemical matter. Did I understand you
13 correctly in saying that?
14 A. Okay. There are many possible accelerants.
15 Accelerants, they are fluids which -- they are very
16 easy to make -- how do you call it -- to make into a
17 fire. In the Dutch situation, in cases where we find
18 an accelerant, for example, in about half of the cases,
19 we find something like petrol being used. But in the
20 Netherlands' situation and also abroad, there are many
21 accelerants which can be used, and one of the
22 possibilities I gave to you is a mixture of volatile
23 alcohols. In the Netherlands that's definitely being
25 I don't know the market situation in the
1 former Yugoslavia, if it is possible to get something
2 like that. That's one possibility, and I'm quite sure
3 we wouldn't find any traces of that because they would
4 be very volatile, and also, they would be oxidised over
5 the years, so I would not expect to find anything.
6 Another possibility is some paint thinners.
7 They also consist only of very volatile components, and
8 I would not expect to find anything.
9 The ones I would expect -- no, no, I should
10 say differently.
11 The ones which in principle might leave some
12 residue are things like diesel fuel. I would have
13 hoped that even if diesel fuel was used, even after all
14 these years and even though nobody ever did a
15 scientific investigation for an arson case, it might
16 have been possible that we would have found traces of
17 some of the components from this diesel fuel. But
18 there are many other possibilities of accelerants where
19 I would not have expected to find a trace after such a
20 long period of time.
21 Q. You have given us a very good explanation now
22 of the different theoretical possibilities. However, I
23 don't know whether you were doing your expertise, that
24 you were drawing our attention to the fact that an
25 individual claimed to be an eyewitness and said that
1 petrol was used. Now, what is the situation like with
3 A. Sorry, can you say it again? As an
4 eyewitness who says petrol has been used?
5 Q. Yes, that petrol was used. Now, I'm
6 interested in knowing your opinion with regard to
7 traces of petrol, if petrol was what was used as an
8 accelerator at the initial spot for planting the fire?
9 A. Yeah. First of all, I definitely wasn't
10 aware that there was a witness saying that petrol had
11 been used. Like I said already, even when petrol would
12 have been used, we would --
13 MR. RADOVIC: Please, one moment.
14 Mr. Terrier wants --
15 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. Radovic. I
16 would just like to point out, maybe belatedly, that I
17 don't have the feeling that the witness mentioned by
18 Mr. Radovic had mentioned the chemical composition of
19 the product that was used on his house. I don't think
20 that he had mentioned the use of petrol used for cars,
21 as was pointed out just now by Mr. Radovic, but I don't
22 have anything against the question being asked, because
23 indeed, if the question is asked it is only a
24 hypothetical one.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but it's worth asking
1 the question.
2 MR. TERRIER: Quite. It's only a
3 hypothetical question raised by Mr. Radovic then.
4 MR. RADOVIC:
5 Q. Yes, but the man that I am thinking of, I
6 forget whether he is a witness or not so I'm not going
7 to mention his name, but he did mention petrol. Of
8 course, he did not say whether it was the super type of
9 gasoline or the ordinary type, but he did speak about
10 bottles of petrol, and that is why I'm asking that as a
11 possibility, and I'd like to hear the witness answer.
12 A. Okay. So as a possibility, a theoretical
13 possibility, in -- first of all, I should say, as far
14 as I know there are no scientific studies to see what
15 happens after so long a period of time when you leave
16 petrol. I know that for shorter periods of time, of
17 course, in a few days already normally most of the
18 petrol will have been evaporated unless it is shielded
19 well down below in the ground and you have a better
20 position. But normally most of it will have been
21 evaporated and you will end up with, say, roughly one
22 per cent of the original petrol being used is left
24 Then what can happen is especially if it is
25 in the ground area, what you can get is that you get
1 microbacterial -- microbacteria from the soils which
2 attack the chemical components. Although in the
3 Netherlands, even though in some of these studies we
4 have looked for it we didn't find so much of it, I know
5 definitely there are several studies of degradation of
6 the materials which are much shorter than the period of
7 five years I have understood in this case.
8 There you see the pattern completely
9 disappears, pattern of components, relative
10 concentrations we would use to identify something as
12 MR. RADOVIC: Would the expert witness please
13 repeat the last sentence, because the interpreter said
14 that he did not catch it, so would the gentlemen please
15 repeat his last sentence?
16 A. Okay. I don't know if I can do it literally,
17 but the point is I gave three possibilities -- I gave
18 three possibilities for -- we could not find any trace
19 of accelerants now even though an accelerant has been
20 used. For petrol it might be this -- the first case
21 that the samples were taken from the wrong position,
22 or, and I expounded on that the last time, that
23 microbacterial deterioration has, you might say, eaten
24 up the components of petrol which was originally used
25 in this hypothetical, theoretical situation. I have
1 some scientific literature to support it, that that
2 could have happened, even on a much shorter time scale
3 than five years' time.
4 Q. Let us conclude our examination now. Do you
5 agree, then, that the results of your analysis would be
6 the following: By a scientific method, it has not been
7 proved that on the spot traces were found of substances
8 which would be used as accelerants or
9 combustion-enhancing substances which would lead to a
11 A. Yes. By scientific methods, no traces were
12 detected of substances which could be used as, what I
13 see over here, combustion-enhancing substances.
14 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. I have no
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.
17 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I have no questions
19 either. Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Any re-examination?
21 MR. TERRIER: No further questions. Thank
22 you very much, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much for coming
24 to give evidence. You may now be released.
25 (The witness withdrew)
1 JUDGE CASSESE: The next witness will be
2 Witness 8; is that right?
3 MR. TERRIER: Exactly, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: No protective measures?
5 MR. TERRIER: Yes. We do ask for protective
6 measures, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: It was not specified on the
9 MR. TERRIER: It is not specified on the
10 list, Your Honour, but the witness asks for protection
11 of her name and of her face.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Then it will be Witness FF,
13 double "F"?
14 MR. TERRIER: Indeed, Your Honour. It will
15 be Witness FF.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, we would like to
17 take a pause in about 30-minutes' time. I think that
18 maybe you will be able to complete your direct
20 MR. TERRIER: Maybe, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Okay, maybe. Then maybe in
22 30 minutes, we'll take a break, and maybe afterwards
23 we'll go on to cross-examination.
24 (The witness entered court)
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Madam. Could
1 you please make the solemn declaration?
2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
7 WITNESS: WITNESS FF
8 Examined by Mr. Terrier:
9 Q. Good morning, Madam. I'm going to give to
10 the usher a piece of paper on which your name appears.
11 Please tell us if this is your name.
12 A. Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 279.
14 MR. TERRIER:
15 Q. Madam, the Judges have granted you a number
16 of protective measures, measures which you have asked
17 for. Your face and your name will be protected.
18 Neither your face, nor your name, will be seen or known
19 of outside the walls of this room. You may testify
20 with no fear whatsoever, and you can tell us everything
21 you know about the facts you have been a witness to.
22 First of all, I would like you to tell us
23 where you lived in 1993. I would also like you to tell
24 us who the members of your family were.
25 MR. TERRIER: Maybe, Your Honour, we could go
1 into closed session at once so that these elements of
2 information could be given to the Chamber.
3 Mr. Usher, could you please give to Witness
4 FF these documents?
5 JUDGE CASSESE: We are now in closed
7 (Closed session)
13 Page 4309 redacted – in closed session
20 (Open session)
21 MR. TERRIER:
22 Q. Madam, I would now like you to tell us more
23 about the period of time that stretches from October
24 1992, particularly, the conflict which took place in
25 October 1992, and April 1993.
1 First of all, could you tell us for how long
2 you had been living in Ahmici when the events took
4 A. I lived there eight years, from 1985 until
6 Q. Did you have any relationships with your
7 Croat neighbours?
8 A. We would visit. We would come to see one
9 another. We never had any problems. They came to
10 visit us and we went to visit them. We had good
12 Q. Could you tell us who your closest Croat
13 neighbours were?
16 Q. In the weeks or the months prior to April
17 1993, did you notice a change in the general atmosphere
18 prevailing in the village? Was there a change in the
19 nature of the relationship between the Muslim community
20 and the Croat community?
21 A. No. There weren't any problems. During
22 those last two or three months, they had started with
23 their preparations, exercises. They walked along the
24 road quite naturally wearing arms, but we never had any
25 complications because of that, until the 16th of April.
1 Q. In the Santici area where you lived, was it
2 possible for you to see soldiers very often? Did you
3 see soldiers very often?
4 A. I would often see them when they would walk
5 by. My house was near the main road where all the
6 traffic was, and that is where they usually went out to
7 Donja Rovna and Radakovo (phoen) for their exercises.
8 They were doing their job.
9 Q. The Croat neighbours you told us about a
10 moment ago, you also gave their names, did they also
11 take part in these training exercises? Were there also
13 A. No, not them, but those others went. I never
14 saw them in uniform.
15 Q. Did you ever see your Croat neighbours
16 dressed in a military uniform?
17 A. I saw Drago in uniform. While they stood
18 guard, I would see him. The others, Papic, also Vlado,
19 Nenad, they were also in uniform.
20 Q. You just mentioned Nenad. Could you give us
21 his full name, first and last?
22 A. His first name is Nenad, but I can't remember
23 his last name. I can't remember his last name.
24 Q. You mentioned Drago. Could you give us his
25 full name?
1 A. Drago Josipovic.
2 Q. In the days prior to April 16th, 1993, did
3 any particular events take place, events which
4 surprised you or shocked you, maybe?
5 A. Nothing surprised me. There weren't any
6 problems. It's not that we had some misunderstandings
7 or that we quarrelled. There weren't any problems.
8 Q. What about your husband, was he quite
9 confidant about the situation?
10 A. My husband didn't feel very well. He had a
11 suspicion. He said, "Something strange is going on."
12 He said that he felt something in the air. He wasn't
13 well, although I comforted him and said that all would
14 be well and that there wouldn't be any problems.
15 Q. Did he try to explain what feeling he had?
16 Did he tell you about strange things he may have
17 noticed in or around the village?
18 A. As far as that is concerned, he didn't say
19 anything definite to me, but he only felt the tension.
20 He said, "It's hard to breathe here. I don't feel too
21 good at all."
22 Q. On the eve of April 16th, 1993, i.e., during
23 the day of the 15th or during the night of the 15th of
24 April, did you, yourself, notice something strange in
25 the atmosphere in the village?
1 A. My husband and I were at (redacted)
2 (redacted), and we were coming back along the field. I saw
3 a few soldiers in front of (redacted) house. They
4 were watching us from up there. We came to our house.
5 That evening, all was quiet. There were no lights on
6 in their houses. Cars passed by often along our road
7 going to Rovna. All was quiet before it started.
8 Q. The fact that there were no lights in the
9 Croat houses, was that something unusual?
10 A. Yes, yes, because before, the lights would be
11 on every evening. Naturally, we would see it because
12 they lived nearby. But that evening, you couldn't see
13 lights anywhere.
14 Q. No lights in the Croat houses. But what
15 about the Muslim houses, were there any lights in these
17 A. Yes. Naturally, we were in our own houses.
18 We turned the lights on, as we always did. We weren't
19 expecting anything. Naturally, we were at home with
20 our children.
21 Q. Let us now speak about what happened on April
22 16th, 1993. What are your recollections of what took
23 place during April 16th, 1993, your first recollections
24 of what happened?
25 A. I was awakened by two strong detonations. I
1 got up. My husband got up. I went to the room where
2 my children slept. My older son got up. I took the
3 younger one in my arms. I went back to the room where
4 my husband and I had slept, together with him, and then
5 I went back to my children's bedroom again. I looked
6 through the window. (redacted)house on fire and
7 her mother's house on fire. We didn't know what was
8 going on. We heard shots. I took a sweater to put
10 At that moment, a bullet came from my
11 brother-in-law's house through the window, and I felt
12 strange in the head. I ran out of this room to the
13 room where my children were. I told my husband that a
14 bullet had come into the room. He came back, and he
15 said, "Will it set the house on fire? The children are
16 here." He looked for the bullet but he couldn't find
17 it. He came back to me again. We took the children.
18 We carried them to the bathroom. We thought that they
19 would be safe there, that nothing could happen to them
21 My father-in-law and mother-in-law were at
22 the entrance. There was a small room there. My
23 husband, my children, and I were in the bathroom. We
24 were quiet. There was a male voice shouting from the
25 outside saying, "If there are any men in here, they
1 should come out." My father-in-law and my
2 mother-in-law went out before we did, and I told my
3 husband that we should go out, that there was nothing
4 to wait for.
5 My husband went out into the hallway. He
6 took his jacket and shoes. I took my younger son in my
7 arms. My husband went out before I did. I remained
8 standing at the door because I didn't dare go out.
9 They shot. They didn't shoot at us. The soldier who
10 stood across from the place where he would lock me up,
11 he held a rifle in his left hand, and he shot into the
13 My husband went down the steps. The soldier
14 told me to walk up to him, and I said that I didn't
15 dare to and that I was afraid that someone would kill
16 my children. He answered that no one would do me any
17 harm, that I could come up to him without any fear. I
18 ran across the yard to him. My mother-in-law followed
19 me, and I turned around. I saw my brother-in-law
20 standing in front of his house, and he was shouting to
21 his family members that they should get out of the
22 house too. That soldier opened the door for me. I
23 walked in there, as did my children and my
24 mother-in-law, and he closed the door again.
25 A group had gathered by then. Some of them
1 said that they would go into the house to search for
2 weapons. A soldier had broken glass all over the
3 automobile, and others walked into the room that they
4 had already torched, and it had already started
5 burning. Then my sister-in-law came and her daughter,
6 and they locked them up together with us, and then they
7 set out down there.
8 A few minutes later, it was quiet but I heard
9 five shots, five individual shots, from the shed. Then
10 all went quiet again, and nothing was heard after
11 that. No one was there. They went on further.
12 We were locked up in there until the
13 afternoon. Then, again, we heard someone speaking in
14 the yard. Two soldiers came. They opened the door for
15 us, and they asked, "Why are you there?" We said that
16 we were locked up by their soldiers, and they asked
17 where our husbands were. They asked what happened to
18 them, and I told the soldier what my husband wore. He
19 just looked down to the ground and he didn't answer
20 anything. He told my mother-in-law that a lot of men
21 were taken prisoner and taken to Busovaca. He said,
22 "Perhaps your menfolk are there." This soldier said,
23 "This is Alija Izetbegovic's fault for the war
24 breaking out." We didn't say anything to that.
25 We asked him to bring us some water. He
1 brought us some water. He brought us two blankets from
2 upstairs. He said that we should stay there because he
3 said, "We don't know what to do with you. If another
4 army comes along, they will kill you too." So they
5 locked us up again and we waited.
6 Some time had passed, and they, again, opened
7 the door and they told us to go out into the yard.
8 Josip came; Vinko came; two more soldiers came. I
9 don't remember their names because I did not know
10 everyone. Because we asked where our husbands were,
11 they said that everything would be all right. They
12 said, "More of your women," our women, "went to the
13 cellar of Slavko Vrebac," and they said, "You can go
14 there too."
15 We came to the cellar of Slavko Vrebac. Our
16 other women were there, indeed. Their women were there
17 too. We walked into the cellar, and we saw our women
18 crying. We asked them why they were crying and what
19 was going on, and they said that their husbands and
20 sons were killed and that they saw them as they were
21 going out of the houses. They asked us where our
22 menfolk were, and we didn't know what to answer to
23 that. We spent the night there. They told us, in the
24 morning, that we should leave because it wasn't safe
25 for us there and that they could no longer offer us any
2 We set out over the fields towards Muslim
3 houses, and they were shooting after us. Nothing
4 happened to anyone, though. We came to a Muslim
5 house. A Croat came there and he said, "Don't worry.
6 I'll take you along the road to the entrance to Sivrino
7 Selo, and your people will take you over from there,"
8 he said. The column left from there, and we received
9 Sivrino Selo. Our people received us there. We stayed
10 there two evenings.
11 In the morning, we left, setting off towards
12 Poculica. We stayed there for a week. After that, we
13 went down to Zenica, and I stayed there for three
14 months. Then I went through the forest to my mother's,
15 and I lived there. I got a temporary residence in
16 Zenica, so I went back there. That's where I live with
17 my children.
18 Q. Thank you, Madam. I will ask you a few
19 questions so that everything is perfectly clear.
20 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, maybe this would
21 be a good time to take a break, and that would also
22 enable the witness to rest a little bit. Maybe we
23 could take the break now.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Whatever you decide.
25 MR. TERRIER: Madam, do you feel the need to
1 take a rest?
2 THE WITNESS: I feel quite all right for the
3 moment. I don't feel bad.
4 MR. TERRIER: Then we shall go on.
5 Mr. Usher, could you please put on the ELMO the aerial
6 photograph so that the witness can have a look?
7 Q. Witness FF, I will ask you to show us the
8 houses which you saw on fire that morning of the 16th
9 of April?
10 A. This is (redacted) and this is her
11 mother's house, and this is (redacted). I saw the
12 house on fire (indicating).
13 Q. You mentioned (redacted)house and (redacted).
14 (redacted). You're thinking of (redacted)?
15 A. Yes, (redacted), yes.
16 Q. When you talk about (redacted) house, are you
17 thinking of (redacted)
18 A. (redacted) yes, that's right.
19 Q. Did you see your (redacted) house,
20 (redacted), going into flames?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you see soldiers being gathered around
23 the house (redacted)?
24 A. They were around his barn, his shed, where
25 they fired. They did not shoot at us, but I did not
1 see the soldiers, although there were a lot of them
2 when they shut us up and when they came into our yard.
3 Q. Did you hear the soldiers who were around
5 A. I did not hear them. Because of the noise
6 made by the shooting, I did not hear them. I just
7 heard, when I came up to the entrance and when the
8 soldier was to shut me in there, (redacted) said that his
9 family was going out of the house.
10 Q. You heard a voice. It was a soldier's voice,
11 wasn't it?
12 A. No. I heard (redacted) shouting to his family to
13 come out, and before that, the soldiers called out to
14 me to come out. The soldier who was to have locked me
15 up, I heard his voice when we were in the house. I
16 don't remember whether the others called out to us when
17 they were around (redacted), because there was heavy
19 Q. When you were locked up in the barn, you were
20 there, together with your mother-in-law and your two
21 children, can you assess the time which elapsed before
22 your sister-in-law arrived? I think I can mention her
23 first name. I have (redacted) and her daughter in mind.
24 A. (redacted)and (redacted) the daughter. Several
25 minutes elapsed. She came right after us. Not much
1 time had gone by, just a few minutes.
2 Q. What was the condition of these two? In what
3 state were they in?
4 A. Well, it was quite normal that they were
5 afraid, just as we were. It was frightening. We had
6 no words to express our thoughts. We said nothing to
7 each other.
8 Q. Madam, I'd like to show you this diagram.
9 MR. TERRIER: I mention to the Court that
10 this is not a diagram according to scale. It is just a
11 rough sketch of the buildings.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 282.
13 MR. TERRIER:
14 Q. Can you identify the location of your house
15 in this diagram?
16 A. This is my house (indicating). This was the
17 summer kitchen, the wood storage shed, the garage, and
18 a facility that we had for slaughtering cattle. This
19 was the barn (indicating), and there was a small hut
20 here where I was locked up.
21 Q. Could you show the location where you were on
22 this diagram when you saw your husband and your
23 brother-in-law being taken away by the soldiers?
24 A. My father-in-law? The entrance to the upper
25 floor was here (indicating). This was the entrance to
1 the house (indicating). My husband had gone out before
2 me, and my father-in-law went with him. They went
3 across the yard, this way, towards the barn. Then I
4 lost sight of them. I remained standing at the
5 entrance, at the door, until I went up to the soldier
6 who locked me up.
7 Q. I'd like to ask you to put a cross on that
8 location where you were standing, where you were when
9 your husband and your father-in-law were taken away by
10 the soldiers.
11 A. (Marks). I was standing at the entrance to
12 my house. This was where the door was (indicating).
13 There were two steps. My husband and father-in-law had
14 gone out across the yard. This was the yard
15 (indicating), and they were taken this way, down here.
16 I stayed here. My husband put on some shoes. At that
17 moment, the soldier called out to me, and I ran across
18 the yard to the place where they shut me in.
19 Q. Wait a minute. Madam, could you put a letter
20 "A" on the first cross you put on this diagram.
21 There, where you were standing, put the letter "A,"
22 please, if you can?
23 A. (Marks)
24 Q. For the record, I shall say that the other
25 three crosses you put on this diagram represent the
1 route taken by your husband and your father-in-law when
2 they were taken away by the soldiers.
3 I'd like to ask you to put a cross and the
4 letter "B" on the location where you went into the
5 barn, to show where the barn door is, actually.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?
7 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I can't see
8 anything on the screen so that I'm not able to follow
9 the testimony of the witness. I'd like this to be made
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. It's difficult to do
12 everything at the same time.
13 MR. TERRIER:
14 Q. Thank you, Madam. Please put a cross there
15 where you went into the barn, if you can.
16 A. (Marks)
17 Q. Then put the letter "B" on that place.
18 A. The place where I put the cross?
19 Q. Indeed. Then we'll put the diagram back on
20 the ELMO.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Could we go back over
22 everything that we said before, because now we have the
23 diagram in front of us and we can follow better. So
24 "A," what is "A"?
25 MR. TERRIER:
1 Q. Madam, everyone can now see the diagram, as
2 well as the crosses you put on it. It might be useful
3 to explain, once more, what these crosses represent.
4 You mentioned a first cross with the letter "A" next to
6 A. That is the exit, the way out of the house,
7 and that is where we left from. My family, myself, my
8 husband, my father-in-law, and mother-in-law, that's
9 where we went out of the house we lived in.
10 Q. You then put another three little crosses
11 towards the left-hand side. What do they represent?
12 A. They represent the yard across which my
13 brother-in-law, father-in-law, and husband were taken.
14 Q. This is the way they went when they were
15 taken away?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Lastly, you put another small cross with the
18 letter "B" next to it. What does that location show?
19 A. The circle indicates the spot to where I
20 came, up to the barn door, where there was a little
21 space inside. I was shut in with my children and my
23 Q. You went from your house to the barn where
24 you were locked up, together with your children and
25 your mother-in-law. Did you go straight ahead of you?
1 Was it in a straightforward way?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Earlier on, you spoke about gunfire and then
4 five distinct shots. When did you hear them?
5 A. When we were shut up. When my in-law came
6 and her daughter, when my husband's brother's wife came
7 with her daughter, several minutes later, I heard five
8 shots, five individual shots, below the barn.
9 Q. Did you see your house on fire?
10 A. After some time had gone by, the room where
11 the bullet entered under (redacted) was ablaze. The
12 room was on fire, and then the summer kitchen,
13 everything began to burn there too immediately.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sorry. We have to have a
15 break. The interpreters have been working for over two
17 MR. TERRIER: Only a few questions, but very
18 few of them.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: We'll have a 30-minute
21 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
23 (The witness entered court)
24 MR. TERRIER:
25 Q. Madam, would you mind taking the diagram
1 again, the one that is on the desk?
2 Could you please indicate on this diagram
3 where you were in relation to your house when you saw
4 the burning houses on that morning, and more
5 specifically so, the house of (redacted)?
6 A. (redacted). I saw her house burning in
7 the room where my children were sleeping, and the room
8 that the bullet came(redacted). I looked
9 through the window and I saw (redacted) house on fire
10 and her mother's house on fire.
11 When I came to the place where I was shut up,
12 I saw (redacted) house on fire, and I did not see my
13 husband's brother's house on fire. That was not on
15 Q. Show us on the diagram where the
16 window (inaudible) -- when you saw that.
17 A. That's where the window was, belonging to
18 (redacted) house, and this is the window where I was
19 before I left. My children slept here. The window was
20 on this side of the house (indicating).
21 Q. So this is the window facing(redacted),
22 isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At that very moment did you see any soldiers
25 around the houses?
1 A. No, I didn't. They were hidden behind
2 (redacted), which was located next to his house. I
3 could just hear shots being fired.
4 Q. Could you show on the diagram where the
5 shooting came from?
6 A. They came from (redacted)
7 in the direction of our house, but they were not firing
8 at us.
9 Q. What was that shooting directed at? Who were
10 they aiming at do you think?
11 A. Probably they were firing to frighten us,
12 because they had nobody to fire at because we hadn't
13 left the house we were in yet. (redacted)
15 Q. So you stated that you heard (redacted);
16 is that right?
17 A. When I went out of my house and when I came
18 to the place where I was shut in, (redacted) shouted out to
19 his children to come out of the house because (redacted)
21 Q. Could you show on that diagram where (redacted)
22 was, if you saw him, where he was when he called out
23 his family members for them to come out?
24 A. (redacted) was located below his house, here in
25 the middle of his field. This was his shed, and he was
1 in the middle of his field (indicating).
2 Q. Could I ask you to give us a rough
3 approximation -- of course, it can't be very accurate,
4 but could you indicate the location where he was and
5 put the letter "C" there?
6 A. (Marks)
7 Q. Thank you. Did you see soldiers close to
8 your house, and if so, when did you see them?
9 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I
10 didn't understand it.
11 Q. Of course. When did you see the first
12 soldiers around your house?
13 A. I saw the soldiers from the place I was shut
14 in when they gathered there, because there was a small
15 opening in the door where we were shut in.
16 Q. My last question is as follows: Did your
17 husband have a weapon in your house?
18 A. At that time we didn't, but before that we
19 did and our neighbours took it away from us.
20 Q. Which neighbours are you thinking of?
21 A. Our (redacted) neighbours.
22 Q. Could you name them?
23 A. Yes, they were below our house(redacted)
1 Q. I'd like to rephrase my question. Could you
2 specify to whom, (redacted) your husband
3 gave -- surrendered the weapons? Could you be more
5 A. (redacted), because he was there. He was the
6 main commander there.
7 Q. Do you have (redacted) in mind?
8 A. Yes, (redacted)
9 Q. Did you know him?
10 A. I knew him. I did not have occasion to have
11 contact with him, but I knew him because he was near my
12 house. (redacted) He lived
13 across the road, stood across the road.
14 Q. And according to you, he was the local HVO
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is he the brother of(redacted)
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you remember approximately when your
20 husband gave him the weapons he had?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much, Madam.
23 I have no further questions for this witness.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
25 Mr. Pavkovic?
1 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, the witness
2 will be questioned by attorney Luko Susak. Thank you.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:
5 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Mr. President, I would like us to move into
7 closed session, because we shall be mentioning certain
8 names that shouldn't be mentioned, but I will be brief
9 with my questions otherwise.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
11 (Closed session)
13 page 4332 redacted – closed session
13 page 4333 redacted – closed session
13 page 4334 redacted – closed session
13 page 4336 redacted – closed session
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: You have other witnesses,
5 haven't you? Fine.
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Your Honour, this next
7 witness will be a protected witness as well, face and
8 name, and it will be Witness GG.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: And on our list?
10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Number --
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Seven?
12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Number 10.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Ten.
14 (The witness entered court)
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Madam. Could
16 you please make the solemn declaration?
17 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
23 WITNESS: WITNESS GG
24 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
25 Q. At this time, I will hand to the witness a
1 piece of paper, through the usher, with the name of the
2 witness written on it.
3 Please look at it, Witness, and say "yes" or
4 "no" if that is your name.
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: While we are taking a look at
7 the name, may I ask you whether the statements you gave
8 us for this witness are only two, one dated the 10th of
9 July, '93, the other one, the 3rd of February, '95?
10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: That is correct, yes.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Witness GG, you have requested protection,
14 and the Tribunal has granted protection for your face
15 and your name. You can be assured that neither your
16 name, nor your face, will be known outside this
18 Should there come a time, during the course
19 of your testimony, where you would need to talk about
20 matters that might, through indirection or some
21 connection, tend to identify you in some way, I will
22 ask to go in closed session, and if the Tribunal grants
23 that request, then your voice will remain in this room
24 and will not be heard outside of this room, so that
25 your identity can remain protected.
1 Do you understand and do you have any
3 A. Yes. I have no questions.
4 Q. To begin, could you just tell us how old you
6 A. Twenty-eight.
7 Q. Prior to April 16, 1993, where did you live?
8 A. In Ahmici, Zume, more precisely.
9 Q. Could you tell us, during that time period,
10 and I'm not referring to the actual day of April 16,
11 1993, but during that time period, could you give us an
12 idea of your family, not by giving any names, but by
13 describing relationships? I'm specifically interested
14 in who was living in your house in Ahmici.
15 A. My father, mother, and sister.
16 Q. Was this a two-level house?
17 A. What was that?
18 Q. Was there an upper story and a lower story?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you describe which floor or which level
21 of the house you and your family lived?
22 A. We lived upstairs.
23 Q. How would you be able to get from the
24 upstairs level to the downstairs level in that house?
25 A. We would have to go out and then go to the
1 other story.
2 Q. So there was an outside staircase in order to
3 go from the upstairs to the downstairs; is that right?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, Your Honour,
6 I'm going to request that the witness identify her
7 house more specifically, so I would request going into
8 closed session.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We will move into
10 closed session.
11 (Closed session)
13 Page 4341 redacted – in closed session
13 Page 4342 redacted – in closed session
13 Page 4343 redacted – in closed session
21 (Open session)
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.
23 Q. Could you tell us the first thing you
24 remember hearing or seeing on April 16, 1993?
25 A. The first thing that happened was that
1 shooting woke me up. I got up. A few minutes later, a
2 tracer bullet got into our living room.
3 Q. What happened when the tracer bullet entered
4 your living room? What did you see?
5 A. It fell on the couch, and it started
6 burning. I went to fetch some water, and I tried to
7 extinguish the fire.
8 Q. Could you hear any noises coming from outside
9 your house at this time, any sounds?
10 A. Shooting.
11 Q. Did you try to do anything to summon help in
12 any way?
13 A. I took the telephone so that I could make a
14 call and ask what was going on, but the telephone was
15 out of order.
16 Q. What did you and your mother then do? I take
17 it now you are on the upper floor at this time; is that
19 A. Yes, at the upper floor. That's where we
20 were. I then told my mother that this part of the
21 house was not safe, that it would burn down for sure,
22 and that we should go to the lower part of the house.
23 Q. In order to go to the lower part of the
24 house, you actually had to go outside and use the
25 outside staircase; is that right?
1 A. Yes, yes, yes. You have to go outside, and
2 that is how you get into the lower part of the house,
3 the lower floor.
4 Q. Did you see anything when you went outside to
5 go down to the lower part of the house?
6 A. From the lower part facing the main road, I
7 saw three soldiers in uniform. On the upper side of
8 the house, there were two soldiers, also in uniform.
9 Q. Could you tell whether they were carrying any
10 weapons at that time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were they carrying weapons?
13 A. Yes, they were.
14 Q. What do you recall happening next?
15 A. When they saw us, they got together in a
16 group, and they pushed my mother and myself into the
17 lower part of the house, into this room downstairs, and
18 five of them got in, together with my mother and
20 Q. Did these soldiers say anything to you and
21 your mother as they were pushing you back into the
22 lower part of the house?
23 A. They were cursing our balija mothers. When
24 they got in, they started searching the house, and they
25 asked where my father was. It was chaotic. Every one
1 of them had something to say.
2 Q. Could you describe, a little bit, the room
3 where you and these soldiers were now in on the lower
4 part of the house?
5 A. It was a room. You could walk into this room
6 from the outside. It wasn't very big. It was a living
7 room, something like that.
8 Q. Were the lights on in this room?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How close were you to some or all of these
11 soldiers while you were in the room with them?
12 A. Very close, because it's a smallish room.
13 There were five of us. My mother was there. I was
14 there. That is seven of us altogether, together with
15 all the things that were in there, so we were very
17 Q. How long do you think you spent in that room
18 with these soldiers that morning?
19 A. Perhaps five or ten minutes, something like
20 that, but it was very long for me.
21 Q. Did you recognise any of these soldiers?
22 A. Yes. I recognised Anto Furundzija, because,
23 at one moment, one of the soldiers was trying to make
24 me go and call my neighbours. Then I turned around,
25 and I recognised Anto Furundzija. He was a schoolmate
1 of mine. I asked him whether I could take some shoes,
2 as they were making me go outside. I asked him, "What
3 is it? What is going on," because he knew me well and
4 I knew him too.
5 Q. Did he say anything to you when you asked him
6 about your shoes?
7 A. No, no, nothing, nothing. We didn't answer
8 that question of mine at all.
9 Q. How was he dressed?
10 A. He was in camouflage uniform. He had a
11 Jokers emblem on his sleeve, and he had one black line
12 painted on both of his cheeks, I think.
13 Q. Did you have any trouble at all recognising
14 him as your former schoolmate, Anto Furundzija?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. I guess my question is: Did you have any
17 difficulty recognising him or did you recognise him
18 immediately as you saw him?
19 A. I recognised him immediately, quite clearly,
20 and I addressed him immediately.
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, I would ask the
22 witness be shown formerly admitted Exhibit P249.
23 Q. Could you tell us who this person is in
24 Exhibit P249?
25 A. Anto Furundzija.
1 Q. Is that the man you saw in your house on
2 April 16, 1993?
3 A. Yes, but he was a little slimmer then.
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Can we now show the witness
5 previously admitted Exhibit P45?
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
7 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, Your Honours,
8 the Prosecutor is now asking the witness, on the basis
9 of this photograph, to identify a certain individual.
10 However, there is another case against this individual
11 in this Trial Chamber, and I don't think that it is
12 proper that we should carry out an identification of
13 this individual who is being tried in another case. I
14 don't see the purpose of having the identification made
15 here because, in this particular hearing, this is not
16 an accused.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, you are
18 right when you say that there is a trial before this
19 same Trial Chamber against Mr. Anto Furundzija, but we
20 have already ruled on this matter, that we will not
21 take into account any evidence tendered in this trial
22 when we make any finding in the other trial. Whatever
23 is said here about Mr. Furundzija will have no
24 relevance whatsoever in the other trial.
25 Of course, this is the basic principle of a
1 fair trial. It would not be fair to Mr. Furundzija to
2 take into account evidence in this trial which has been
3 tendered here. We have already ruled on this matter.
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If the witness could now be
5 shown the next exhibit, Exhibit P45.
6 Q. Does this look familiar, Witness GG?
7 A. Yes. That is the emblem worn by Anto
9 Q. Did Anto Furundzija have a weapon with him
10 when you saw him in your house that day?
11 A. Yes, he did. I think he had a rifle.
12 Anyway, it was a long barrel.
13 Q. Now, I believe you were saying that, at one
14 point, a soldier asked you to do something. Do you
15 recall what that soldier asked you to do?
16 A. He asked me to call my neighbours, the
17 neighbours who lived across from my house. He asked me
18 whether there were any menfolk there, and I said that I
19 didn't know. I asked him not to make me go because I
20 had just got up and there was shooting outside.
21 At that moment, the other soldier said, "Get
22 out." My mother and I started to leave, although my
23 mother didn't want to go. She wanted to stay in the
24 room, but they said, "Get out. Go outside."
25 Q. As you were leaving or, perhaps, prior to
1 your leaving the house, did you see any soldiers with
2 any kind of communication device?
3 A. In going out, I looked down, I wasn't allowed
4 to turn around, but I just glanced downwards, and I saw
5 him take up a walkie-talkie or some device of that
6 kind, and he said, "Everything is going according to
8 Q. When this soldier said, "Everything is going
9 according to plan," was he speaking into this
10 walkie-talkie or was he talking to one of the soldiers
11 in the room?
12 A. He was saying it into the walkie-talkie.
13 Q. Was Anto Furundzija in the room when that was
14 being said into the walkie-talkie?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, when you and your mother left the house
17 on orders of these soldiers, what do you remember
18 seeing or hearing next?
19 A. While we were leaving the house, we were in
20 front of the house, and one of the soldiers climbed up
21 onto the stairs leading to the upper story of the
22 house, and he looked in the direction of the house of
24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this point, Your Honour, I
25 would request that we go back into closed session for a
1 couple more questions.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
3 (Closed session)
13 Pages 4353 to 4368 redacted – in closed session
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
16 12.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
17 the 12th day of October, 1998 at
18 9.30 a.m.