1 Monday, 12th October, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
7 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
8 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, Vladimir Santic, also known as
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, may I make a
12 short statement?
13 Following the testimony of one of the
14 witnesses last week, the witness before last, I
15 believe, we did another search of our files and found
16 what looks like a statement that had not been disclosed
17 to the Defence, which we very much regret. Apparently
18 this statement, if it, in fact, is a statement, was,
19 for some reason, not entered into the computer system
20 and so it was not found.
21 We do not even know if it is a statement. It
22 may be notes of an investigator that was never signed
23 by the witness. But in any event, we propose to turn
24 that over now in its entirety. We have alerted the
25 Victims and Witnesses Unit not to take this witness
1 back until we hear from the Defence as to whether or
2 not they would propose to want to ask her additional
4 Again, I very much regret the late discovery
5 in this and can only say that it was something we just
6 did not know we had until we looked again this weekend.
7 So at this time, I would ask the usher to --
8 JUDGE CASSESE: This relates to Witness
9 FF or ...
10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Witness EE, Your Honour. I
11 might add that we have placed a phone call in to the
12 investigator whose name appears at the front of this
13 statement or notes to determine whether, in fact, it
14 was a signed statement or simply an investigative
15 canvass sheet of some sort, so we should be hearing
16 from that investigator sometime this morning.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Krajina?
18 MR. KRAJINA: Good morning, Your Honours.
19 Mr. President, if I may, I should like to
20 raise a matter of procedure regarding the Court order
21 that the Defence is duty-bound to submit its legal view
22 on the criminal responsibility to the Prosecution
23 within a particular period of time.
24 We should like to have the answer to this
25 question, but we also wish to address this matter in a
1 different manner also; that is, we intended that, at
2 the time when we produce evidence, to invite an expert,
3 that is, the President of the Supreme Court of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina or another person of similar
5 competence and similar responsibility, to explain
6 before this Court concrete valid sentence confirmed by
7 the Supreme Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina which deals
8 with a crime -- with a war crime which is defined as
9 the persecution of a civilian population of a different
10 religion, that is, Bosniaks, Muslims. We believe that
11 that would give us a more complete picture as to how
12 the question of persecution is addressed by the State
13 whose citizens are accused here.
14 We believe it is very important, that it is
15 very relevant when it comes to Count 1 of the
17 Therefore, I should like to hear from Your
18 Honours an instruction whether we shall be able to
19 adduce this evidence in the matter as we conceived it,
20 that is, at the time when we produce evidence and bring
21 in our witnesses or would you have another view on the
22 matter? Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Krajina.
24 Yes, we believe that you are fully entitled to call
25 this expert as an expert witness when it comes to the
1 Defence case, so as one of your witnesses, an expert
2 witness. Of course, we could stick to our Rules on the
3 expert witnesses. You may ask him to produce a written
4 statement. If there is no challenge, no objection by
5 the Prosecution, we could simply take into account the
6 written statement by the expert witness. However, if
7 you insist that he should be examined and
8 cross-examined, that's even better. I think, in any
9 case, it would be important to have the contribution of
10 the President of the Supreme Court of
12 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you, Your Honour. We
13 thought that even this valid sentence could be shown to
14 the Court to try to explain why the sentence was
15 passed. Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So this judgement
17 will be translated into English, I understand. It
18 could be circulated even before you call the witness.
19 MR. KRAJINA: Yes.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Excellent. Counsel
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I
23 should like to inform Your Honours about a matter,
24 rather, a problem, which of late has been of
25 considerable concern to both counsel and the accused.
1 I don't know if this is the right time to
2 talk about it, as last Friday afternoon you announced a
3 Status Conference; however, we fear that it might be
4 too late if we waited for that particular session.
5 If I may, I should like to say a few things
6 which concern the time the Defence will need for
7 preparation and adduction of its evidence because this
8 week the Prosecution will exhaust its list of
9 witnesses, at least that is how it was announced, and
10 I'm saying this because come Friday, perhaps you will
11 have some views on this and yet we are afraid that it
12 might be too late to discuss it then because it is very
13 important for the Defence.
14 Your Honour, on several occasions, when
15 considering the necessary time and, of course, bearing
16 in mind your programme or, rather, your timetable for
17 this case, you spoke about four weeks which the Defence
18 would have at its disposal to prepare and call its
19 witnesses and produce the evidence for the Defence.
20 We analysed very carefully all of the
21 commitments before us, and in particular with regard to
22 the preparation of our witnesses, and following that,
23 we arrived at the conclusion that that particular
24 segment of time would not be sufficient for the
1 In other words, when the Prosecution
2 concludes with the examination of their witnesses, and
3 I think that now already we are faced with some
4 deviations from the statements of these witnesses as
5 against their written statements that were disclosed,
6 these are some quite new facts, some quite new
7 circumstances, and the witness list which the Defence
8 had prepared before this trial began needs to be
9 redefined; in other words, we shall have to -- I
10 wouldn't like to use the word "adjust" the existing,
11 that is, the witnesses we already had in mind in view
12 of the newly arising circumstances but we shall also
13 have to think about calling new witnesses.
14 The difficulties involved -- I presume you
15 could also glean from this part when the Prosecution
16 brought their witnesses, the difficulties in bringing
17 the witnesses here and having their statements are
18 quite obvious. The Defence also has very many
19 difficulties when it comes to the preparation of these
20 witnesses for the Defence and we are planning to call
21 some 80 witnesses. These witnesses are not available
22 to us at all times, and there are some difficulties
23 related to this because some of the witnesses do not
24 really -- or, rather, do not work in their places of
25 residence so that they also go back for weekends, and
1 weekends are the only time when the Defence can
2 establish contact with them and talk to them.
3 However, the most important thing, Your
4 Honours, which I wish to point out and which is a
5 completely new thing, a new situation with which the
6 Defence is faced: Some two weeks ago, or perhaps even
7 more, the proceedings began before this Court in the
8 Blaskic case. It is a fact that one of the counts of
9 the indictment in this particular case is also the one
10 which relates to Ahmici. In other words, the same
11 event which is the subject of hearing before this
13 In this particular case, the Defence, in view
14 of the client -- Defence position could not know what
15 the Defence would -- what kind of evidence would the
16 Defence in the Blaskic case adduce, what witnesses they
17 would call, what kind of documents, what kind of papers
18 they would be producing as evidence, and we learned
19 that only when the Defence began its case, so only in
20 the case of the Ahmici event we also learned that
21 several hundred, reportedly 250 different documents,
22 papers, orders, reports are being prepared which are
23 supposed to shed light on every fact related to the
24 events in Ahmici. As this is the same event, perhaps
25 it would be wrong to establish before this Court a
1 different factual situation from the one in the Blaskic
2 case. I do not think it will be good.
3 So in this case, the Defence intends to go
4 through all that documentation, to analyse it, study
5 it, and make an adequate selection, and all of this,
6 Your Honours, takes time.
7 We therefore believe that, along with the
8 preparation of witnesses, we simply cannot do within
9 three or four weeks, that is, a month's time.
10 There is no doubt that the Defence highly
11 appreciates all the efforts that Your Lordships have
12 made to ensure and fair and expeditious trial; however,
13 likewise the Defence is worried what will happen if it
14 does not have enough time for preparation. It is
15 afraid it might miss some relevant facts and that the
16 facts might not be established fully and completely
17 which is, as we, I believe, all agree, a fundamental
18 prerequisite for a fair trial.
19 Your Lordships, in conclusion, I should like
20 to point out that what I am talking about now is the
21 view of all the accused and their counsel. The accused
22 Vlatko Kupreskic and his counsel, of course, if the
23 Chamber goes along with our proposal, will not be
24 against it nor cause any problems.
25 The Defence therefore proposes that in
1 addition to that one month as envisaged by you, we
2 should also be allotted, for all of this business that
3 I mentioned and a number of other things, get another
4 month, that is, not less than two months after the
5 completion of the proceedings which concern the
6 evidence for the Prosecution, that is, all of the
7 witnesses for the Prosecution.
8 Thank you very much, Your Lordships, for your
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina?
11 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, my learned
12 friend said a few things about our attitude, and I
13 should also like to add an explanation.
14 We are asking for an extension for the simple
15 reason that we do not intend to refer to documents that
16 were already mentioned and which are used in the
17 Blaskic case, and therefore, we do not think that it is
18 necessary to ask for an extension because we shall not
19 be referring to these documents. But, of course, if
20 Your Lordships go along with what my learned friend has
21 asked for for that extension, we, of course, will go
22 along with that. Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
24 MR. RADOVIC: Perhaps when we explain the
25 reasons why we need two months for the preparation of
1 the Defence, perhaps another reason for this is the
2 fact that during the Blaskic case, the unit which
3 attacked Ahmici was mentioned as in this particular
4 case. The event in Ahmici is not disputable, I mean,
5 as the Prosecution described it, but it is disputable
6 when it comes to these accused in the case of Ahmici.
7 The documents which are now produced in the
8 Blaskic case explain how it came about and what units
9 participated in the event in Ahmici, and we think it is
10 very important because so far, in our view, it is still
11 not clear which were the HVO units which attacked
12 Ahmici; and for this reason, we believe that the
13 evidence which is adduced in the Blaskic case, and this
14 is mostly written evidence, that is, objective
15 evidence, not witness statements which, of course, may
16 be suggestive or false and indicate some wrong roads or
17 wrong identification, these are documents which are
18 indicating specific individuals or specific units which
19 participated in it, and the accused here, most of the
20 accused or all -- none of the accused were members of
21 these units, nor did they take part in this action as
22 you will hear from the Defence when we begin our case.
23 Thank you very much.
24 I simply wanted to add this explanation to
25 what my learned friend Pavkovic has just said.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I will turn to
2 the Prosecution to ask about their position.
3 MR. TERRIER: Your Honours, I understand
4 perfectly well what the concerns of the Defence are. I
5 understand that some very useful pieces of information
6 can and must be taken from the proceedings against
7 General Blaskic, but I am concerned in respect of the
8 possible delay that will be brought about thereby.
9 If this Court was to grant the request by the
10 Defence, that would mean, since we are to conclude our
11 case this week, this would mean that we couldn't start
12 until the 15th of December with the Defence case. I
13 don't think that we could use that time for the later
14 part of December, we would have to start in January.
15 Two months will be necessary to hear 70 or 80
16 witnesses. In other words, we won't be able to
17 conclude this case until late February or the beginning
18 of March with the Defence case, which would be a
19 considerable delay. So we would not have the sentence
20 at this level until May.
21 But I leave it up to you, to your
22 appreciation. I am attached as much as the Court and
23 the Defence is to the fairness of this trial. It is a
24 very complex trial. I understand that evidence must be
25 adduced by the Defence following the Prosecution case,
1 which is no easy task for the Defence, so I leave it up
2 to you to appreciate this whilst we express our
4 There should not be any problem in ensuring
5 fairness, equality of arms, between the two parties.
6 You know that the difficulties which the Defence is
7 encountering now were the same for the Prosecution when
8 it had to prepare its case. I leave it up to you to
9 assess all this.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, we are going to think
11 it over. We are going into look into this very
12 sensitive issue. But I am very grateful to
13 Mr. Pavkovic for insisting on the very crucial problem
14 right now. This gives us more time for consideration
15 and possible conclusion as soon as Friday. But if we
16 can, now that we know that we are going to have some 80
17 witnesses for the Defence - and I agree with you,
18 Mr. Terrier, you may need some two months of hearing to
19 hear all the witnesses - so we have some basic factors
20 to base our decision, our ruling on by Friday, by the
21 time we have our Status Conference.
22 So this being said, in respect of the
23 document we received this morning, I believe that
24 Mr. Radovic, and rightly so, is asking for some time.
25 I suggest we come back to this issue at 2.00 this
1 afternoon to see what the position of the Defence is
2 with regard to this document, to see whether the
3 Defence would like the witness to be called back to
4 expand on her testimony or on his testimony.
5 Before moving on to the next witness, I would
6 like to ask both parties, especially so to the
7 Prosecution, whether it intends to call this
8 anthropologist, Mrs. Bringa. It would be of utmost
9 relevance. I don't know whether the Defence was able
10 to read the book written by the anthropologist and was
11 able to view the film.
12 Could the Defence tell us whether they can
13 agree to this document being tendered into evidence
14 without having the witness coming to the courtroom? We
15 are interested in this witness, and we could call her
16 at the time of the Defence case as a Court witness.
17 This being said, I wonder whether the Defence has made
18 up their minds as to that?
19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the Defence has
20 not received the book, nor have we had the opportunity
21 to view the film, because we have not been given it.
22 Therefore, we cannot give your our view on this matter
23 because we are in the dark. However, we do have some
24 views in principle shared by the Defence. We would
25 like to see the expert witness here in the Court, and
1 we would like to be given the opportunity to ask some
2 questions. Thank you.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. It's quite
4 sensible that it would be quite visible to call this
6 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Your Honour. We were not
7 able to disclose the book and the film in time. It is
8 quite a major book, a large book, not only in regard of
9 the topic but also in number of pages, and we'd like to
10 disclose the relevant chapters to the Defence, I mean,
11 the chapters which are relevant in view of our case.
12 The chapters that could be interesting for the
13 testimony of the witness. We do, like the Defence and
14 like the Court, wish to call this witness so that she
15 can be questioned by the parties and by the Court.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, do disclose the
17 relevant pages to both the Court and the Defence, and
18 do produce the film, and we can already decide that
19 we're going to call this witness as a Court witness --
20 sorry, yes, Counsel Radovic?
21 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honours, if in these
22 proceedings we were to use the book written by the
23 lady, then I think that the Prosecutor cannot pick and
24 choose the pages it intends to. If they want to use it
25 as evidence, they need to give us the whole book and
1 then we will see whether the parts chosen by the
2 Prosecutor are really the parts that are relevant, or
3 maybe there are some other chapters in the book which
4 are equally as relevant, seen in the eyes of the
5 Defence. It's not possible for the Prosecutor to tell
6 us what's important for this case and what's not
8 JUDGE CASSESE: We agree. Thank you. We
9 agree. You are right. I think the Prosecutor should
10 be so kind as to produce the whole book. I think
11 that's a very good point.
12 Counsel Susak?
13 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have one
14 question regarding one witness. Since the examination
15 of the Prosecution witnesses is to be concluded this
16 week, I would like to know why a witness is not on the
17 list for the 9th of October this year.
18 On the list of 30th of the September, we have
19 a witness listed under number 6, and for the list of
20 the 5th of October we have the same witness listed
21 under number 7. On Friday we were informed by the
22 Prosecutor that the witness is here in The Hague, and I
23 would like the Prosecutor to explain what is going on
24 and whether this witness will be examined in the
25 courtroom or not.
1 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, I think we have
2 the same witness in mind. Indeed, that witness was
3 scheduled on our list of last week, but then we had a
4 fresh look at the counts and the Prosecution evidence,
5 and we do not intend to call this witness at all.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: I did not quite understand.
7 This was to be number 7 on the list of the 5th of
8 October; is that right? She was a lady.
9 MR. TERRIER: Yes, indeed.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: You're not intending to call
12 MR. TERRIER: That's right, sir.
13 MR. SUSAK: Your Honour, Mr. President, this
14 is a highly contentious issues as far as I'm concerned,
15 because I deem this witness to be very important for
16 the case if the facts are to be established correctly.
17 Since this witness is already in The Hague, and since
18 expenses have already been incurred, and in order to
19 prevent her possible return at a later date, I propose
20 that the Court call this witness as a Court witness,
21 since she's already in The Hague.
22 I have another question for the Prosecutor as
23 well. Does the Prosecutor deem that its list of
24 witnesses has been exhausted? Because we do have some
25 witnesses that we would like to propose -- that we
1 would like to be called as Court witnesses to be called
2 by the Court.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: As for the last question,
4 you're asking whether this is the final list of the
5 Prosecution witnesses. I assume so. The eight names
6 are there. So if there are other witness, they can be
7 called by the Defence later on when we come to the
8 Defence case.
9 We can't abuse this procedure which we have
10 actually invented, of the Court witnesses, because we
11 are stretching a little bit our Rules of Procedure for
12 the purpose of having a fair trial, and the purpose
13 of --
14 MR. SUSAK: Yes, Mr. President, but at the
15 beginning the Prosecutor listed some other witnesses
16 also as Prosecution witnesses, and that was the reason
17 why I wanted to propose that these witnesses be called
18 by the Court, because they're not accessible to us.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you thinking, in addition
20 to the lady we mentioned before, are you thinking of
21 other witnesses who are on the list, on the previous
22 list and --
23 MR. SUSAK: Yes -- no, I don't mean the
24 previous list, but I mean the Prosecution list of 72
25 witnesses which they said they would call to testify.
1 As far as the lady witness is concerned, I
2 did not state my view on that because we have not been
3 able to examine this part of her statement, the
4 document that we received today.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, I think we can't oblige
6 the Prosecution to call the witnesses selected by the
7 Defence. It is a basic right of the Prosecution to
8 call the witnesses they choose to call.
9 I'm sorry. You can call those people as
10 witnesses, Defence witnesses, and, of course, it is our
11 duty as a Tribunal to make sure they come here.
12 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President today, for me, this
13 witness, who is already in The Hague, is important for
14 me, and I would like to propose that the Court call her
15 as a witness, because otherwise, a significant
16 financial expenses would be incurred, and I think that
17 it is important for this witness to appear before the
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will decide on
20 this matter in due course. First of all, let me ask
21 the Prosecution about their position on the possible
22 calling of this witness. This witness, I understand,
23 is still here in The Hague, the lady.
24 MR. TERRIER: In respect of this lady, yes,
25 she is still in The Hague today, and as you mentioned,
1 I do not think the Defence can force the Prosecution to
2 call witnesses the Defence may want to call. We do not
3 intend to call this witness for reasons we need not
4 explain here in detail. If this witness happens to be
5 useful for the Defence, then it is up to the Defence to
6 call that witness as a Defence witness in due course,
7 but we do not intend to call her because we do not
8 think that she's useful for the Prosecution case.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: We will discuss, at the
11 coffee break, this matter in depth, and then we'll come
12 back and make a ruling on this particular witness,
13 whether or not we're going to grant the motion -- or a
14 motion made by Counsel Susak.
15 I think it is now high time to move on to our
16 witness, who has to be cross-examined, I think, by the
17 Defence, and I wonder who -- Counsel Pavkovic, you may
18 be so kind as to tell us who is going to cross-examine
19 this witness, who is witness 1 on today's list.
20 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honour, Counsel Susak
21 intends to examine the witness.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you
23 (The witness entered court)
24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: With regard to that statement
25 that was turned over today, we have just received word
1 from the investigator that, in fact, the statement was
2 never signed, it was never read back to the witness and
3 should be considered not a statement but investigative
4 notes or a -- it was not a statement signed or read
5 back to the witness.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will come back
7 to this matter later on, maybe early afternoon.
8 All right. Good morning, witness. You will
9 be cross-examined by Counsel Susak.
10 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, not too fast
12 so that we can have a good record. Thank you.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS GG (continued)
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:
15 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I will
16 try to do so. I will be very brief.
17 I would like the usher to show to the witness
18 the Exhibit 247.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: We are in open session. Do
20 you need to go into closed session?
21 MR. SUSAK: No, it is not necessary.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
23 MR. SUSAK:
24 Q. Will you please tell us what is this?
25 A. You mean the photograph?
1 Q. Yes, this aerial photograph.
2 A. This is the building, the warehouse of the
3 construction material, and you can see some other
4 buildings here, some other houses. There is my house
5 here (indicating).
6 Q. Can you please tell me where is the guard's
7 booth here?
8 A. Here, right here (indicating). This is where
9 the door was.
10 Q. And where are the windows?
11 A. This is one window, and there was another
12 window on the other side (indicating).
13 Q. What about the door?
14 A. The door is here (indicating).
15 Q. Can you please indicate with a pen the
16 location of the doors and the windows?
17 A. How am I supposed to do so?
18 Q. Well, you can mark with the pen where the
19 door is, and then you can also indicate with a circle
20 where the windows are.
21 A. The window is here in the back (marks).
22 Q. Can you please mark with an arrow the
23 location of the window which is in the back?
24 A. (Marks).
25 Q. Do you know whether there were two guards on
1 duty or only one when this building was guarded?
2 A. There were two of them, but they were taking
3 shifts. I don't know whether the shifts lasted two
4 days or one day, and then -- I know that there were two
5 guards and they were working in shifts.
6 Q. Were they on guard duty during the night and
7 during the day as well?
8 A. No, only in the evening.
9 Q. Were they working full capacity or what was
10 the situation?
11 A. I think that they were not working full
12 capacity. Believe me, I did not have any insight into
13 their operation.
14 Q. But after -- in fact, for how long has this
15 building -- had this building been in operation?
16 A. I don't know, believe me. I think it wasn't
17 a recent thing, but I really can't give you an idea as
18 to how long it had already been working.
19 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: No, Your Honour.
24 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I apologise. I
25 would like to tender this into evidence, this
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No objection?
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I believe the photograph
4 already is in evidence.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, as a Prosecution
6 Exhibit, but this is now the photograph with the
7 markings by the witness, so it's a different, in a way,
8 piece of evidence.
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes Your Honour.
10 MR. SUSAK: Yes, exactly.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This photograph will be
12 marked D7/4.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: So any re-examination?
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I guess, Your Honour, I am a
15 little confused. Because this is essentially 247 as a
16 Prosecution Exhibit, P247. It's now been transformed
17 into a Defence exhibit.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I thought we could have
19 a copy. Could you produce a different copy which would
20 be the Prosecution exhibit--
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: 247, yes.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: -- without any marking, and
23 the one with the marking would be a Defence Exhibit.
24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, we can do that.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. If you have a
1 similar photograph in colour.
2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I believe we do, or we'll
3 simply make one.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So I see there
5 are no questions from the Court.
6 Witness GG, thank you very much indeed for
7 coming here to give evidence. You may now be
8 released. Thank you.
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 JUDGE CASSESE: You intend to call witness
11 number 2; is that right?
12 MR. TERRIER: This witness did not ask any
13 protective measures. This person can be called by his
14 or her name. It will be Sulejman Kavazovic, and we can
15 be in open session.
16 (The witness entered court)
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Would you
18 please make the solemn declaration?
19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
24 WITNESS: SULEJMAN KAVAZOVIC
25 Examined by Mr. Terrier:
1 Q. Good morning, sir. To begin with, could you
2 tell the Court what your first and last names are,
3 where you were born and when you were born?
4 A. First of all, good morning. My name is
5 Sulejman Kavazovic. I was born on the 15th of July,
6 1967, in the municipality of Vitez, in the village of
8 Q. What was your occupation in 1992 and in
10 A. In 1992 and 1993 I was a member of the
11 Territorial Defence headquarters in the municipality of
13 Q. And could you specify what your functions
14 were? In that capacity?
15 A. From May 1992 until July 1992 I was a
16 military policeman in the Territorial Defence and from
17 July 1992 until 1993 I was the chief for traffic and
18 transport at the Territorial Defence headquarters.
19 Q. Where did you used to live then?
20 A. I lived in Vitez.
21 Q. Do you know the accused named Vlado Santic.
22 A. Yes, I do know Vlado Santic.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked
24 not to speak into the microphone?
25 MR. TERRIER: -- Court at what time, when,
1 and under which circumstances you got to know Vladimir
3 A. Sometime in July 1992 I was arrested by the
4 Croatian Defence Council. I was brought to the Hotel
5 Vitez, and I was questioned there by Vlado Santic and
6 two other police officers. I don't know who they
8 Q. And what was the topic of that interview?
9 A. I was questioned about the intentions of the
10 Territorial Defence headquarters and why the
11 Territorial Defence was there at all. That was the
12 general gist.
13 Q. When did you see him again at a later stage?
14 A. I saw him again on the 24th of April, 1993,
15 when the conflict between the army and the HVO broke
17 Q. And what was your personal situation then on
18 the 24th of April, 1993?
19 A. I was a captive, a prisoner. I was taken
20 from one frontline to another, digging trenches, and
21 thus I was brought to the Bungalow where I saw
22 Mr. Vlado Santic.
23 Q. Why were you taken to the Bungalow on the
24 24th of April, '93?
25 A. I don't know why I was taken there. I know
1 that I was in the camp in Vitez, in the SDK building
2 where two civilian police officers and a military
3 police officer took me to dig trenches. I spent an
4 hour or two at that location, and after that those same
5 people came and took us in a van to the Bungalow.
6 Probably they needed us to dig trenches.
7 Q. Do you remember how Vlado Santic was dressed
8 when you saw him in the Bungalow on the 24th of April,
10 A. In 1993, on the 24th of April, I was taken
11 from trench digging at Rijeka to the Bungalow. I came
12 there with eight or nine other people who had also been
13 digging trenches at Rijeka. We came in front of the
14 restaurant which was formerly called the Bungalow, and
15 we were lined up there, me and nine other people. I
16 saw Mr. Vlado Santic there. He was wearing a black
17 uniform. And that's all.
18 Q. Could you tell us approximately how many men
19 were at the Bungalow on that day?
20 A. As far as I was able to see, 50 to 60 people
21 wearing different kinds of uniforms, belonging to
22 different units were there. I saw Military Police, I
23 saw some members of the Joker units, some of the HVO
24 members, civilian police officers.
25 Q. What were their uniforms and what weapons did
1 they have?
2 A. The uniforms were camouflage and black, and
3 the civilian police officers wore blue uniforms.
4 As far as their arms is concerned, they had
5 Kalashnikov rifles and they also had rifles that we
6 used to call, Argentina.
7 Q. Did Vlado Santic speak to you, and if he did,
8 what did he tell you?
9 A. He said just one word, "You again," and then
10 he ordered four of the members, two from Jokers and two
11 police officers, to take me to Kratine, to Miroslav
12 Bralo, Cicko.
13 Q. On that day, did you have the feeling that
14 Vlado Santic was a commander, had a commanding
15 situation in relation to the other men at the
17 A. Well, I did have that impression, since he
18 issued an order to these four men to take me to Bralo,
19 Cicko. That indicates that he was in a position of
20 authority, of command.
21 Q. On that day, did you see -- did you meet
22 somebody else you knew at the Bungalow?
23 A. I saw a woman. I saw her for two or three
24 seconds. Her name was Zumra Jelaskovic.
25 Q. Did you meet other men you would know?
1 A. No. I knew only Mr. Ivica Markovic from the
2 civilian police. He was a colleague of mine. He had
3 brought me to the Bungalow.
4 Q. I'll ask you to look around in this courtroom
5 and to tell us whether you do recognise the person you
6 mentioned. I mean, Vlado Santic.
7 A. I do recognise him.
8 Q. Could you tell us where that person is
9 sitting in the room?
10 A. He is sitting right across from me, between
11 the two police officers.
12 Q. Could you be more specific? Could you tell
13 us more exactly where he is?
14 A. May I point at him? The gentleman is sitting
15 there (indicating).
16 Q. Could you give a physical description of that
18 A. Yeah, sure. Well, he's sitting here. His
19 hair is receding, he has a white shirt, a blue coat
20 with a tie. Greying.
21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have no
22 further questions for the witness. Thank you.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Pavkovic, you
24 have the floor.
25 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Lordship, I do have a few
1 questions for this witness and Mr. Radovic too will
2 have some.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
4 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, my name is Petar Pavkovic, I'm
5 a lawyer, and I should like to ask you a few questions
6 with regard to what you have just said.
7 Perhaps I could start by asking you, how many
8 times have you so far, if any, given statements to the
10 A. About two times.
11 Q. During those interviews, did the
12 investigators ask you to describe Vlado Santic?
13 A. Why, I can't remember that. What do you
14 mean, "describe him"?
15 Q. Well, when you told them things that you
16 knew, probably they also asked you what Vlado Santic
17 looked like.
18 A. Yes, I do remember, they asked me once, and I
19 think I explained it somewhere.
20 Q. Then do you remember if, on that occasion --
21 did you describe a person as you see today in the
22 courtroom and, when asked by the Prosecution, you
23 claimed you found that it was Vlado Santic?
24 A. Well, yes, except that he wasn't so gray at
25 that time and had more weight at the time.
1 Q. Did Vlado Santic ever have black hair?
2 A. Yes, sir, he did.
3 Q. At that time?
4 A. Yes, at that time and before that.
5 Q. Was he 180 centimetres tall?
6 A. Well, I couldn't tell you exactly. I really
7 cannot measure them --
8 Q. No, that is not what I asked you.
9 A. Well, I am telling you --
10 Q. Well, when I ask you, it means, of course,
11 that it concerns some estimates, approximate.
12 A. Yes, approximate.
13 Q. Do you remember if, at that time, you
14 recalled some details such as, for instance, that you
15 knew Vlado's telephone number and gave the
16 investigators that telephone number?
17 A. Yes, it was in '96, '97 sometime. I remember
18 I had to call Vlado. It had to do with an uncle of
19 mine, something like that.
20 Q. Do you still remember that number today?
21 A. No. Today, I don't.
22 Q. Apart from this Vlado Santic, are there any
23 other Vlado Santics? Do you know any of them?
24 A. No, this is the only Vlado Santic I know.
25 Q. So you couldn't really recall the telephone
1 number that you referred to at that time?
2 A. No, no. By no means.
3 Q. But at that time, when you called Vlado
4 Santic by that number, then you talked to him, didn't
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. PAVKOVIC: I do not know whether this
8 will have any evidential value, but I should like you
9 to bear this in mind when you assess this particular
11 I should like to place at your disposal a
12 certificate of the Vitez post office which shows that
13 the telephone number which this witness stated was
14 indeed Vlado Santic's telephone number but not this
15 Vlado Santic which the witness indicated today but of
16 Vlado Santic, son of Jozo, from Dubravica; and
17 alongside the certificate of the relevant post office,
18 on the telephone number, it's all been translated into
19 English, and I should like to submit it also and to
20 also enclose with it work orders which show that
21 Vladimir Santic, son of Jozo, had asked for a telephone
22 line and that it was provided him on the basis of
23 relevant work orders. So that when the witness said
24 that he talked to Vlado Santic on that particular
25 occasion, it therefore arises that it could be only
1 this particular Vlado Santic, son of Jozo, and not the
2 accused Vlado Santic.
3 So will the usher please take over these
5 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, let us go back to what you
6 said today, that you spoke with Vlado Santic for the
7 first time sometime in September 1992 and that, at that
8 time, you were taken into custody at the Hotel Vitez
9 where you were then interrogated by him and two more
11 Could you tell me how positive can you be
12 that Vlado Santic was a member of the HVO at the time?
13 A. At the time of my interrogation, I was
14 interrogated by Vlado Santic, so he must have been with
15 the HVO. He couldn't be anywhere else.
16 Q. Why is it so? Not everybody was in the HVO.
17 A. No, of course not. I mean, those who did not
18 wear uniforms, who were not in uniforms, they were not
19 either HVO or the TO.
20 Q. What did Vlado Santic do before the conflict?
21 A. He was a civilian policeman, member of the
22 civilian police.
23 Q. But at that time, was he a civilian
25 A. No, he was not a civilian policeman at the
2 Q. Why?
3 A. Because in Vitez, the civilian police wore
4 blue uniforms and blue caps, and at that time, Vlado
5 Santic did not wear a blue uniform.
6 Q. But if the civilian police was involved,
7 involved in something, wouldn't they have the civilian
8 clothes, as you say, that is, the police clothes?
9 A. Civilian policemen wore a policeman's blue
10 uniform, sir, throughout.
11 Q. You said that you saw Vlado Santic again on
12 the 24th of April, '93, by the Bungalow, and that at
13 that time, you established that he had black clothes on
15 A. So he did. On the 24th of April, '93, he was
16 wearing a black uniform, the uniform that was normally
17 worn by the Jokers.
18 Q. Are you assuming that about the Jokers
19 uniform and so --
20 A. (No translation)
21 Q. How far away were you?
22 A. I was not far, a metre or perhaps two metres
23 away from him.
24 Q. Did you talk?
25 A. We were aligned -- they lined up there. We
1 did not talk. He was in the Bungalow and then a
2 soldier called him to come out of the Bungalow, so he
3 came out, and they lined us up on the terrace in front
4 of the Bungalow. There was this terrace. And then he
5 said "You again." And I kept silent because I had not
6 tried to speak. Then he ordered four men, that is two
7 policemen and two Jokers, who were all -- who had --
8 their heads are shaved except that they had a very
9 small strip of hair here, and he ordered them, "Take
10 them to Kratine."
11 Q. You said there were nine men. Could you give
12 us some names?
13 A. Yes. Edin Zlotrg, Jasmin Cengalovic, Adnan
14 Pilic, three, I was four, Mirsad Ahmic fifth, Samir
15 Pasagic six, and the other two, I knew their nicknames,
16 one was called Dzampo, and another one, I can't
17 remember it now. I don't know the name and the surname
18 of the last two, but we all came from Vitez.
19 Q. You said that you had a feeling that Vlado
20 was in command there, of course, when asked by the
21 Prosecution. Why did you have such a feeling?
22 A. I had this feeling because when we came out
23 on the terrace, one of them asked Vlado to come out
24 because he said, "Here is the digging team. Will you
25 come out?" And he came out of the Bungalow and he
1 ordered that other foursome to take us to Kratine.
2 Q. Did you know any one of that foursome who
3 were ordered?
4 A. No, I didn't know them. I know that the
5 driver was called Madzar, he was a military policeman,
6 I don't know his name, but he was the one who always
7 drove to Rijeka and back. I know they called him
8 Madzar, and he had those gloves with fingers cut off as
9 a bicycle driver. There was Ivica Markovic, who was a
10 civilian policeman and who drove me there together with
11 them, but he didn't go to Kratine together with us, he
12 went back.
13 Q. So it is only on the basis of that one
14 particular event in which you took part you concluded
15 that Vlado played a part there also?
16 A. Well, not a part, an important part.
17 Q. Right. Well, you are talking about a big
18 role, a small role, but that is not up to you to
19 assess. What I'm asking you is on the basis of what
20 did you assess that? You said you had a feeling.
21 A. Well, as I said, because orders came from
22 him. I think that when somebody issues orders, then he
23 must be responsible for things.
24 Q. You said you were with the Territorial
25 Defence headquarters so you also had some military
1 experience, and then I hope you do distinguish orders
2 and what kind of orders.
3 A. Yes, I do understand something about that
4 because I've been a soldier for the past eleven,
5 perhaps twelve years.
6 Q. At the time before the conflict, that is, the
7 15th of April, '93, where were you?
8 A. In Vitez.
9 Q. Where in Vitez?
10 A. In the old part of the town.
11 Q. Does the name Vlatko Males mean anything to
13 A. Vlatko Males? Yes, of course it does.
14 Vlatko Males was a military policeman, a member of the
15 Territorial Defence, a former active JNA officer. My
16 colleague, shall we say.
17 Q. Could you say something else, something
18 more? Did you see him on that particular day, the 15th
19 of April, '93?
20 A. Vlatko Males? No, I did not.
21 Q. You did not.
22 A. No. I saw Mirko Males, his brother. I was
23 accommodated in -- right next to -- with the in-laws
24 and there was Mirko Males also there.
25 Q. On the 15th of April, '93, did you have any
2 A. No, no, I did not.
3 Q. Who else was a member of the home guards of
4 the Territorial Defence?
5 A. What do you mean, who was a member?
6 Q. You said that you were the head for the
7 traffic of the Territorial Defence. Was there anyone
8 else with you at the headquarters occupying some other
9 posts? Who was there?
10 A. There was the commander of the staff and
11 there was his deputy for logistics.
12 Q. Could you tell us who they were?
13 A. Hakija Cengic was the commander of the
14 municipal headquarters. There was deputy commander for
15 logistics, Muhamed Patkovic, and there were some others
16 but they are not relevant. Should I tell them?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. There was the commander of the Military
19 Police, Zlatko Nakic.
20 Q. And who was under you?
21 A. The driver.
22 Q. No, you mean you were on the staff of the --
23 A. I don't understand. I don't understand the
25 Q. Did the staff exist by itself or did you have
1 any units?
2 A. We had 34 policemen in the staff. There was
3 Anto Furundzija, Vlatko Males.
4 Q. No, I am talking about the 15th of April,
6 A. Yes. Well, some ten or fifteen military
7 policemen stayed there.
8 Q. And apart from them?
9 A. Not apart from them. That's the lot.
10 Q. Do you know -- I mean, does this name mean
11 anything to you, Abdulah Ahmic, called Sudzuka?
12 A. Sudzuka? Yes, I know --
13 Q. Mustafa, excuse me. Mustafa Ahmic, called
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Tell me, during the first conflict on the
17 20th of October, '92, where were you?
18 A. I was in Visoko.
19 Q. Where were you?
20 A. In Visoko.
21 Q. All day?
22 A. I started that day from Visoko to Vitez to
23 report to the Territorial Defence command.
24 Q. And were you there?
25 A. Yes, I did. I went through Ahmici. The
1 conflict was going on.
2 Q. And was Mustafa Ahmic, called Sudzuka, at the
3 Territorial Defence headquarters?
4 A. No, he was not.
5 Q. And where was he?
6 A. He was at home, in Ahmici.
7 Q. Thank you. Where was he? Could you tell us?
8 A. He was at home, in Ahmici.
9 Q. At that time, did he have any kind of
10 communication with the Territorial Defence
12 A. Well, yes, sometimes perhaps, but I don't
13 know what you mean. He had no responsibilities. He
14 was not in command. He had nothing.
15 Q. But at that time, in Ahmici, was there a
16 radio station of a kind?
17 A. I wouldn't know that.
18 Q. Let me remind you that in answering the
19 investigators, you told them that this Ahmic was in
20 Ahmici, that he had his radio station, and that he
21 called you to ask for help.
22 A. No. He called. He didn't ask it from me
23 because I was responsible for traffic. He couldn't get
25 Q. No, I mean the staff.
1 A. He said -- yes, he called the Territorial
2 Defence. He said, "My house is on fire. I need
3 help." Something like that. But I could not help him
4 and he did not ask for this help from me specifically.
5 He was asking the Territorial Defence, the commander,
6 to help him.
7 Q. Could you tell us where were you on the 16th
8 of April, '93?
9 A. Excuse me. Are you mentioning the month of
10 April because I'm not quite sure with the Croatian
11 language. I know in Bosnian it is April.
12 Q. So did you understand me?
13 A. Yes, I did understand you. I understood you
14 when you were speaking Bosnian and yet I'm not
16 Q. Well, I shall try to speak so that you will
17 understand my Bosnian. So will you please tell me,
18 where were you on the 16th of April, 1993?
19 A. I was at my in-laws' place in Vitez.
20 Q. How long were you there?
21 A. Until the 18th of April, '93. I was under a
22 sort of house arrest because I could not move around, I
23 could not go out.
24 Q. In that house arrest, it was the time of war,
25 so you placed yourself under arrest because -- I mean,
1 you were in. Nobody put you there.
2 A. Yes, they did. They kept the buildings
3 closed. Muslims were not allowed to move about.
4 Q. But you were in a flat?
5 A. Yes, I was in the flat. I mean, no, we were
6 not allowed to go into the street whenever we liked, so
7 that there was a kind of arrest. There was the HVO,
8 the Territorial Defence were around -- around the
9 buildings, and those who came out, they took us to
10 camps, and that is what happened to me on the 18th of
11 April. A man came who took me away and all the men
12 from the building, they took us to the building of the
13 social auditing service, and that is where we were put
14 under custody.
15 Q. When you were in the Bungalow, you said that
16 when there, you saw an individual -- I'm afraid I did
17 not note the name of that person -- it was Zumra
19 A. Yes, I saw two women. I didn't know the
20 second woman, but Zumra, as we were standing on the
21 terrace -- I'm explaining how I saw those two women.
22 We were lined up there, and I was the last one -- or,
23 rather, the first on the left side, and when we were
24 lined up, that soldier, he told us to stand one beside
25 the other and we did, and for a second, I turned my
1 head to the left, and behind the corner of that
2 Bungalow restaurant, those two women turned up, and I
3 just cast a look. But the soldier who was sitting
4 across from us -- there were not many of them, but one
5 of them said, "You two, back -- back off." So I
6 turned, I saw this Zumra Jelaskovic, whom I knew from
7 Vitez. She was the wife of an instructor from Vitez.
8 Q. Why is it important to mention them? because
9 you must have seen very many other things and people.
10 A. Well, yes, perhaps. But to me, those
11 women -- those women were not supposed to be there, I
12 guess. I don't know.
13 Q. Let us leave aside what you guess. You say
14 that you think there were about 50, 60 people there,
15 and you said that military and civilian police, HVO --
16 where were all those people? Did you count them?
17 A. Well, I did not count them. I said
19 Q. But were they lined up?
20 A. No, they were sitting, sitting down. They
21 were in uniforms, they had weapons.
22 Q. Where were they sitting?
23 A. They were sitting in the parking lot of that
25 Q. In one place?
1 A. No, no, in a circle. There were about 50 or
2 60 -- I did not count them, really -- but about 50 or
3 60, three types of uniforms, camouflage, black, and
4 blue, of the civilian police. They were sitting there
5 chatting. And after a while -- I really don't know
6 what they were doing there, but there were that many.
7 Q. How many times did you see Vlado Santic?
8 A. Do you mean the whole period of time?
9 Q. No, I mean on that particular occasion.
10 A. Well, then, only then, for about a minute,
11 minute and a half.
12 MR. PAVKOVIC: All right. Thank you. Your
13 Lordships, I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
15 MR. RADOVIC: Sir, I have more questions, and
16 I intend to be quite exhaustive about the Territorial
17 Defence and the like. Perhaps it would be an
18 appropriate time to take a break?
19 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Before we take a
20 break, I wonder whether Mr. Moskowitz could be so kind
21 as to indicate to us the date of the interview on that
22 document which was distributed before, because now it's
23 only the 31st of July, 1st of August. There is no
24 year. The Defence counsel may wish to know the full
1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. The information we have
2 from the investigators was 1996.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: 1996. All right. Thank you.
4 We will now adjourn for 30 minutes.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Since the witness is not
8 here, I'll read out the ruling we have made in the case
9 raised this morning by Counsel Susak.
10 The Court considers that the Prosecution is
11 fully entitled to decide, for reasons that it does not
12 need to explain to the Defence and the Court, not to
13 call a witness previously listed as a Prosecution
14 witness. Whenever the Prosecution takes such a
15 decision, if the Defence intends to call the witness,
16 it may do so at a later stage, in the course of the
17 Defence case. The witness would then be called as a
18 Defence witness. In that event, the Court will assure
19 that he or she is brought to The Hague to testify.
20 However, in this instance, the Court
21 considers that it is faced with exceptional
22 circumstances that warrant a departure from the
23 aforementioned principle.
24 The witness is currently in The Hague, having
25 been brought here by the Prosecution as a prospective
1 witness. It might prove difficult or inexpedient to
2 recall her to testify at a later stage. In addition,
3 this witness might provide exculpatory evidence.
4 The Court, therefore, holds that it is in the
5 interests of fairness and justice to call the witness
6 now, in the course of the Prosecution case. On the
7 strength of Rule 54, the Court does decide to call the
8 witness as a Court witness, and instructs the Victim
9 and Witnesses Unit to bring the witness to court this
10 afternoon. She will be briefly examined by the Court,
11 then cross-examined by the Prosecution and re-examined
12 by the Defence.
13 (The witness entered court)
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
16 Q. Thank you. Please tell me, at the
17 Territorial Defence staff in Vitez, you were in
18 charge -- there was also the security sector?
19 A. That's very likely, but I was in charge of
20 the transport and traffic.
21 Q. As a person in charge of traffic and
22 transport, you were a chief. Did you have meetings of
23 all the chiefs?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At those meetings, did you see a person -- an
1 officer in charge of security?
2 A. I was in logistics. There were no security
3 officers in logistics.
4 Q. But there is a person in charge of the
5 security in the staff, and the person in charge of
6 security, the security officer, is concerned about
7 everything, including logistics?
8 A. I had a colleague -- actually, there was an
9 officer who was above me.
10 Q. So you were not directly subordinate to the
11 commander, to the Chief of Staff?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So there was a person who was between you and
14 the Chief of Staff?
15 A. Yes. There was a person who was in charge
16 between me and the logistics.
17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that before the
18 16th, that is on the 15th, the Territorial Defence
19 staff was provided information by the security officer
20 that a great danger was imminent?
21 A. I don't know about the security officer, but
22 you could see that in the town.
23 Q. No. What I'm interested in is whether the
24 Territorial Defence staff, located at the time in Stari
25 Vitez, had been warned that serious danger was
2 A. I'm not aware of that.
3 Q. Do you know that due to possible danger, it
4 was decided that members of the Territorial Defence
5 staff should spend the night, from the 15th to the 16th
6 of April, at the staff premises?
7 A. Well, I for one did not spend the night
9 Q. How come, if you were a member of the staff,
10 that you were not informed of that?
11 A. I gave you the reason. I was in the
12 logistics staff.
13 Q. So you don't know anything about this.
14 You said that you have been in the army for
15 quite some time. I assume that you served in the JNA
16 before the BH army?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. What was your rank when you left the JNA?
19 A. Lieutenant.
20 Q. At this time are you an officer?
21 A. Yes. I'm an officer of the BH army, and I
22 have the rank of First Lieutenant.
23 Q. What are you in charge of? Are you still in
24 the logistics branch?
25 A. I'm at the joint command of the army. I'm in
1 charge of transport and traffic.
2 Q. On the eve of the 16th, do you know whether
3 the Territorial Defence in Stari Vitez and around Stari
4 Vitez ordered some trenches to be dug?
5 A. No. I worked on the 15th when the
6 Territorial Defence staff was formed. Pero Skopljak
7 and others attended that meeting. They were invited to
8 be there when the Territorial Defence was formed. That
9 was celebrated at the day of the Territorial Defence.
10 Q. I did not ask whether that was dug on the
11 15th of April, I'm just asking whether there were any
12 trenches dug before that in the Vitez area?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know that?
15 A. I personally did not see any trenches,
16 because I went to the part of the town with the
17 majority of the Croatian population and I would have
18 seen some trenches there.
19 Q. Would you have seen them if you travelled on
20 the road?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But could you see other trenches dug in other
23 places? Are you able to say that on the basis of your
24 own perception?
25 A. I did not see any trenches.
1 Q. Can you now tell me, the feast of Bajram on
2 the 19th -- in 1993. It was on the 22nd and 23rd of
3 March, 1993. Do you know where this was celebrated in
4 Stari Vitez?
5 A. No. I was in the camp. I couldn't know.
6 Q. Well, the 22nd and 23rd of March.
7 A. I don't know about that. I don't know where
8 it was celebrated.
9 Q. Did you not hear that the feast was
10 celebrated in the fire-fighting brigade centre?
11 A. No, I did not know that.
12 Q. Did you not celebrate Bajram in that year?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What was Sefkija Didic's function in the
15 Territorial Defence staff?
16 A. He was the commander of the Territorial
17 Defence staff.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises,
19 did not hear the name of the person replacing-- whom he
21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Radovic is broaching
22 questions which were in no way raised during
23 examination-in-chief. In the present case, this cannot
24 be motivated by the desire to assess the reliability of
25 the witness. I am perfectly aware of the fact that the
1 Court can grant some questions outside the scope of the
2 examination-in-chief, but if this is justified, if this
3 is the view of the Court, then it means that
4 Mr. Radovic should have less leading questions to put
5 to the witness.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, you heard
7 the objection from the Prosecutor. We are wondering
8 about the relevance of your questions, because he's
9 right there, the Prosecutor is right that you -- in
10 saying that you are going beyond the matters raised in
11 examination-in-chief. Could you point to the relevance
12 of your questions for your case?
13 MR. RADOVIC: The question concerning the
14 Bajram in Stari Vitez will form a part of the Defence
15 of the accused. We can say that at this stage, since
16 we are now approaching the end of the Prosecution case,
17 his Defence will be that he was on friendly terms with
18 the Muslims up until the very last minute -- that's the
19 part of the indictment concerning persecution -- and
20 that on the night of the 22nd to the 23rd of March, his
21 folklore group danced Croatian and Muslim folk dances
22 at the party, at the celebration of the feast of Bajram
23 at the fire brigade centre of Stari Vitez. That is in
24 the area controlled by the Muslims.
25 I am asking this question -- in fact, I
1 should ask this question of every Muslim who appears
2 here, since do I not know which of the witnesses
3 attended that celebration of the feast of Bajram and
4 which one was able to see the Kupreskic brothers dance
5 in celebration of Bajram. Because if it is claimed
6 that they are engaged in the persecution of Muslims,
7 then it can only concern the one day, the day of the
8 16th. But if the indictment covers a longer period, we
9 have to prove what their conduct was throughout that
11 The point is it is very hard for us to come
12 into contact with Muslim witnesses, and in my view -- I
13 don't know if you will share this view with me -- you
14 will give greater weight to confirmation of Muslim
15 witnesses if they say what -- in what way the Kupreskic
16 brothers treated them. So that was the reason I asked
17 this question.
18 As far as the Territorial Defence is
19 concerned, he was on the staff of the Territorial
20 Defence and I'm just trying to determine what he knows
21 about the organisation.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we consider that your
23 questions are relevant. You may proceed. Although
24 they go beyond the matters raised in
25 examination-in-chief, they are relevant so you are
1 allowed to continue.
2 MR. RADOVIC: I have concluded the matter of
3 Bajram. I have a few more questions about the
4 Territorial Defence. We have already heard about that
5 from other witnesses, but since he has first-hand
6 knowledge, having been in the organisation, maybe he
7 can tell you something about this.
8 Q. When did you join the staff, and whether at
9 that time it was a joint body of Croats and Muslims, or
10 was it separate right from the start?
11 A. I became a member of the Territorial Defence
12 staff on the 22nd of May, 1992. The staff was formed
13 by a joint command, Croat and Muslim in the town of
14 Vitez. It was in the premises of the Minister of the
16 Q. You don't have to go into such detail. Can
17 you please tell us when the two separated?
18 A. It was sometime in August when Anto
19 Furundzija and the other gentleman left the Territorial
20 Defence staff, the other Croatians.
21 Q. And when did the Territorial Defence staff
22 move to Stari Vitez?
23 A. When the first conflict broke out on the 21st
24 of October, 1992, when we were surrounded by the HVO,
25 and when the HVO simply evicted us from the buildings
1 because they considered themselves to be the only armed
2 force. They were stronger. There were only about 35
3 of us. In Vitez there were many units which were the
4 not from the Vitez municipality but from Mostar or from
5 Siroki Brijeg, for instance.
6 Q. Can you give us more concrete details?
7 A. For instance, the Ludvig Pavlovic unit from
8 Mostar. They had the HVO patches with the laurel
9 leaves. They also captured me on that very day, the
10 22nd of October, and brought me to Vitez.
11 Q. Tell me, when the Territorial Defence staff
12 moved to Stari Vitez, did the staff have some kind of a
13 base or were there just people? What I mean is did
14 they have any units of which it was in charge?
15 A. No. No, it did not have any units. There
16 were about 20 people on the staff. We did not move.
17 We had been evicted. They allowed us to leave through
18 the town centre, but when we started leaving they
19 arrested us.
20 Mr. Vlado Santic should know that, he was
21 present at the time.
22 The commander and three or four other men
23 were allowed to move to Stari Vitez.
24 Q. But when the staff moved to Stari Vitez, did
25 they have any arms at their disposal?
1 A. I don't know. I was arrested. I spent four
2 days in the Ministry of the Interior, in detention.
3 Q. But after that, when you were released, you
4 went to the Territorial Defence staff?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And I would like to know whether you had any
8 A. There were some automatic rifles, 10 or 12
9 military police officers were there. I did not have
10 that information at my disposal, as far as I know.
11 Q. As regards the 20th of November, you don't
12 know anything about that?
13 A. The 20th of November?
14 Q. 1992. Apology. I meant the 22nd of
16 A. I don't know what you mean.
17 Q. I'm referring to the roadblock.
18 A. I was at the staff, at the headquarters, but
19 I heard about the roadblock.
20 Q. Did you hear who ordered the roadblock to be
21 set up?
22 A. No. I have no idea. A roadblock was set up
23 by the HVO and another roadblock by the Territorial
25 Q. Do you know who manned the roadblock, who
1 ordered the roadblock to be set up? You don't know
3 A. (No audible response)
4 Q. Please tell me, do you know anything about
5 the formation of the 325th Mountain Brigade?
6 A. I was in the Territorial Defence staff.
7 Q. And the Territorial Defence and the brigade,
8 that is two separate matters?
9 A. Yes, but before the Territorial Defence was
10 set up, the Territorial Defence staff was in charge of
11 the Territorial Defence units on the ground.
12 Q. Units? Well, was there an organisation
13 structure of the Territorial Defence on the ground?
14 A. Let me tell you one thing, I can -- I was in
15 the town. I was not allowed to go around, because I
16 was given orders by the chief for logistics.
17 Q. Did you hear about the formation of this
18 Mountain Brigade?
19 A. No, I did not hear about that.
20 MR. RADOVIC: I have no further questions.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.
23 Any re-examination?
24 MR. TERRIER: I would have no further
25 questions for this witness. However, in respect of the
1 documents submitted by Mr. Pavkovic earlier on, I do
2 not think that they could be usefully tendered into
3 evidence inasmuch as we do not have -- I don't mean the
4 originals, I'm not asking for the originals, but we do
5 not have copies of the Bosniak or Bosnian versions so
6 as to verify the authenticity or the conformity of the
7 translation into English.
8 On the other hand, these documents, according
9 to me, only prove this: That the son of Jozo, Vlado
10 Santic, had a telephone line, the number of which is
11 given, and that on the 27th of October, 1994, somebody
12 rang him. I do not see how this piece of information
13 is connected to our case and could be in any way useful
14 to the file in this case.
15 So failing any other information from
16 Mr. Pavkovic, we oppose this document being tendered
17 into evidence.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Actually, I was also
19 wondering why we had not been provided with a copy of
20 the original in Bosnian Croatian.
21 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I do not have
22 the original at this time. I don't have it here, but I
23 do have it elsewhere. I can submit the original both
24 to the Chamber and to the Prosecution. In fact, it was
25 by mistake that I don't have this original, because I
1 actually thought that you would be able to understand
2 what this is all about on the basis of the
4 What I wanted to prove, let me remind you,
5 this witness claimed that he had talked to Mr. Santic,
6 and he said that he knew the phone number well. I just
7 wanted to point out that he talked to -- he may have
8 talked to Mr. Vlado Santic but not to this Mr. Vlado
9 Santic here, because according to the documents I
10 submitted, that phone number belongs to Vlado Santic,
11 but another Vlado Santic whose father's name is Jozo.
12 So if it is true that he had talked on this
13 telephone, as he has claimed, then he could only have
14 talked to somebody else. So these documents are
15 relevant to what this witness stated.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Indeed, I had already
17 noted that in the document, the statement dated the
18 26th of January, '97, which are the notes taken by the
19 investigator, at page 7 of the English, a phone number
20 is indicated as being the phone number of the accused
21 Vlado Santic, and it corresponds to the phone number
22 which appears in your document. So I see your point.
23 But I wonder whether Mr. Terrier can set out
24 his position on the relevance. As for the original, of
25 course, we need the original. We can't admit this
1 document into evidence without having the original. We
2 can wait until you produce the original.
3 But Mr. Terrier may have comments.
4 MR. TERRIER: The only comment is as
5 follows: I would have liked the witness to be asked to
6 give an explanation as to his relationship with that
7 other Vlado Santic. If I understand the Defence
8 properly, Vlado Santic was one of the persons he talked
9 to on the phone, but I think this question could be
10 asked of the witness, and I will ask the question
12 Re-examined by Mr. Terrier:
13 Q. Mr. Witness, did you know Vlado Santic, son
14 of Jozo, who lived in Donja Dubravica, and what was
15 your connection with that individual, if you knew him
16 at all?
17 A. I would like to explain this whole case
18 involving the telephone conversation between Vlado and
19 myself. I think that Vlado should know this very well.
20 The telephone conversation was with Vlado
21 Santic, I don't remember when it was, but if Vlado
22 wants to confirm that, he will be able to say that it
23 was with this Vlado Santic that I spoke. I don't know
24 any other Vlado Santic.
25 Another point: No Muslim works in the Vitez
1 post office, and thus we cannot confirm whether this
2 was all done regularly, whether this document is, in
3 fact, true. Since Vitez is under the control of the
4 Croatian authorities and since the Muslims are not
5 allowed to even go into the post office, you should
6 verify the stamp. If it has the federal stamp, then I
7 agree with this document; and if the stamp is not
8 federal, then we cannot really accept this.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: This will be for the Court to
10 decide on this matter. We will, of course, duly verify
11 whether this document -- on the basis of the original,
12 whether it is authentic or not.
13 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Your Honour. Let me point
14 out very briefly that through these documents, if they
15 were to be confirmed with the original, the number, the
16 telephone number, well, we know that number, we know
17 who is the owner of that line, but Mr. Pavkovic could
18 give us further explanation. It doesn't say who is the
19 person who subscribed to that line and who is the
20 calling number, unless I have failed to examine this
21 properly. But I'm sure that the Court will give the
22 appropriate weight to this document.
23 I have no further questions for this witness
24 whom I thank for coming to testify in this court.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic?
1 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, as you can see,
2 I did not submit only the certificate, I also supplied
3 some other documents indicating the whole process of
4 introducing the telephone line. You have the work
5 order, when the telephone user submitted his
6 application for the telephone line, and in the end, you
7 have the certificate that this telephone line belongs
8 to Vlado Santic, son of Jozo from Dubravica, and I
9 think that's sufficient. I can't see why the
10 Prosecutor, in addition to the objection that I should
11 also submit the original, which I admit is correct, why
12 is he continuing to object?
13 JUDGE CASSESE: The Prosecutor is not -- he
14 is simply stating that we need the original and, in his
15 view, this document is not relevant.
16 I have a question relating to this matter for
17 the witness.
18 Mr. Kavazovic, in a statement you made in
19 January '97 to one of the Tribunal's investigators, you
20 indicated that you knew the phone number of Mr. Vlado
21 Santic, and you gave a number which, according to the
22 Defence, corresponds to the phone number of another
23 gentleman having the same name, another Vlado Santic
24 who is son of Jozo Santic.
25 Can you explain this contradiction; namely,
1 that you gave a phone number which actually corresponds
2 to somebody else? Did you call that phone number?
3 A. Your Lordship, I really do know who I talked
4 to and I did talk to Vlado Santic on that occasion. As
5 far as I know, I recognise his voice, and he knows what
6 we talked about. After all, he's here, so why don't
7 you ask him?
8 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm afraid that we can't ask
9 him. Thank you. All right. So there is no
10 objection -- at some stage, we should try to depart
11 from the practice of not asking questions -- I know we
12 can't. But I hope, as I say, that Defence counsel,
13 when we come to the Defence case, may decide to call
14 the accused as witnesses on their own behalf. It could
15 be of great interest and a great contribution to
16 justice and truth.
17 No further questions?
18 Mr. Kavazovic, thank you for coming here to
19 give evidence in court. You may now be released.
20 Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
22 (The witness withdrew)
23 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether the
24 Prosecution could now call the next witness, No. 3. I
25 think he is not a protected witness, [redacted], then,
1 in the afternoon, and as soon as we are finished with
2 [redacted], we can call the lady we mentioned this
4 But I see Counsel Pavkovic has a question or
6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Excuse me, Your Honours. I
7 merely wanted to refer to the notes which the
8 Prosecution submitted to us, and that is the
9 investigator's notes after the interview with the
10 witness of the list of 5th of October, 1998, No. 6 -- I
11 mean Witness No. 6, if I understood the Prosecution
12 counsel properly. Could we question this witness
13 regarding the circumstances referred to in these
14 notes? If it is true, what the Prosecution claims,
15 that this is a note from the Prosecutor's Office, that
16 is the note of the 31st of July and 1st of August, when
17 an investigator talked to this witness, and we should
18 like or, rather, I, as counsel for Vlado Santic and my
19 learned friend Susak, would like to state the
21 If the Chamber decides that these notes are
22 also of probative value and that they could help to
23 arrive at the truth and satisfy justice, then we should
24 like this statement, the source has been confirmed, we
25 should like this statement to be included in the
1 evidence for the Defence, and if the Court deems that
2 it would not be enough, then we should like to suggest
3 that we call in the investigator who authorised these
4 notes. In other words, we do not think that witness
5 needs to be subjected to cross-examination on this
7 This is our proposal, and why, if I may add,
8 why do I think that this document does have some
9 probative value in the eyes of the Defence? Well, it
10 really rests with the fact that, according to the
11 notes, it says here that the witness told the
12 investigator, with regard to the accused Vlado Santic,
13 that having taken away her husband, and Zeljo Livancic
14 came also back with him -- came with him -- came back
15 with him together. And as far as I remember, it was
16 said here in court that only Zeljo came back.
17 Now, in the view of the Defence, it is a
18 crucial moment, and that is why we believe that it is
19 valuable as evidence. It has some probative value.
20 As regards Drago Josipovic, in this statement
21 it is said that Drago Josipovic -- what is said about
22 Drago Josipovic also deviates from the earlier
23 statement of the same witness, and for this reason, we
24 wish to submit this witness statement as an exhibit for
25 the Defence.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. What is the
2 position of the Prosecution?
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think the problem that we
4 see with that is that this is not, in fact, a witness
5 statement, but, according to the investigator, was
6 never read back to her and was never signed by her and
7 cannot be viewed as a statement by this witness. It is
8 perhaps a recording of some sort to indicate a
9 conversation between this investigator and this
10 witness, but the accuracy of it I think is difficult to
11 determine given the fact that it was never read back to
12 the witness.
13 Now, if there is a question as to whether, in
14 fact, this was a signed witness statement, then we
15 could certainly obtain an affidavit from the
16 investigator and submit that to the Court to establish
17 the circumstances around which these notes were taken
18 so that would be satisfactory to the Defence and to the
19 Court as to whether or not this is, in fact, a signed,
20 read-back statement, and we would be happy to provide
21 that to the Court and to the Defence as soon as
22 practicable. But to introduce this into evidence as a
23 statement of the witness I think would not be fair to
24 the witness since it, in fact, was never read back to
25 her and she never signed it and never affirmed that
1 these were her words. So we would not agree that this
2 should be admitted into evidence.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. What about the
4 suggestion of Counsel Pavkovic that the investigator,
5 the particular investigator who questioned this
6 witness, could be called to give evidence?
7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We don't feel that that would
8 be necessary. We could obtain an affidavit from that
9 investigator to set forth the circumstances of the
10 statement, and perhaps that would be sufficient for the
11 Defence and for the Tribunal to make a decision on
12 this. Of course, if Defence counsel wants to call a
13 witness in its case, it, of course, is entitled to do
14 so, and that would include investigators for the Office
15 of the Prosecutor, but I would anticipate that would
16 not be necessary.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: We consider that this is not
18 a witness statement, as was rightly pointed out by the
19 Prosecutor, so it cannot be admitted into evidence, and
20 we would like to again comply with the suggestion made
21 by the Prosecutor that the investigator, [redacted],
22 should be asked to submit an affidavit. In the light
23 of that affidavit, the Defence counsel may decide to,
24 at a later stage, call this investigator to give
25 evidence in court. In any case, we do not intend to
1 call back the Witness EE. We feel that she has already
2 given evidence, and we are satisfied that this is
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Your Honour, with regard to
5 the next witness, this witness has, in fact, requested
6 protective measures, and I regret that you were not
7 notified in advance of that.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: No. 3?
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. And the reasons will
10 be, I think, clear during the first couple of questions
11 which I would request be done in closed session.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We can -- so you
13 can bring him in now, but with the agreement and the
14 understanding that in the afternoon, as soon as we are
15 through with this witness, we will move on to the other
16 one, the lady who will be called by us.
17 MR. TERRIER: In respect of this other
18 witness, Your Honour, who is now a Court witness, has
19 it been clearly established that since she is a Court
20 witness, the Prosecutor, who had planned to call her,
21 can no longer have any contacts with her? I think that
22 is clear. And this being so, I think it would be
23 appropriate for the Victims and Witnesses Unit to
24 inquire as to the protective measures possibly required
25 by the witness.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I was planning to call
2 the head of the unit to ask him to take all necessary
3 steps so as to ensure that the witness be here this
5 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much, Your
7 JUDGE CASSESE: I have just received a note
8 to the effect saying that this witness will be ready to
9 testify as of 2.00 this afternoon. The head of the
10 unit, the Victims and Witnesses Unit, is giving me this
11 note, corroborating how efficiently this unit can work.
12 It is for you to call the -- because we have
13 still -- we have 15 minutes. Why don't we -- oh,
14 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, we do
16 not know how long the Prosecution will question this
17 witness, but the witness is very important for us
18 because it is related to another witness whom we
19 already heard. If this witness is scheduled for 14.00,
20 the question is whether there will be time for both the
21 examination-in-chief and cross-examination and
22 re-examination. So perhaps it will be better to begin
23 at 2.00 with this particular witness, and that witness
24 to call after her because this is the Witness No. 3
25 from the list. Because as far as I understand, you
1 intend to complete the questioning of this witness.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, I am not very clear.
3 Are you suggesting that we should now start -- the next
4 witness should be the lady we were mentioning before,
5 the Court witness, who would come here --
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Quite.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: -- and after that, the
8 present No. 3. This is your suggestion?
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Quite. Because this is
10 a very important witness for us, I mean, the
11 cross-examination is very important, and I think the
12 Prosecution can finish completely to hear both this
13 lady witness and the cross-examination of that witness,
14 and it is very important for us.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Since I understand we could
16 not start right away with the lady witness, we have to
17 go back to our previous list and then start now with
18 No. 3, and then we will finish but you will have, of
19 course, all the time necessary to cross-examine this
20 witness as well as the other one, and if we need more
21 time tomorrow morning, I hope that the lady may stay on
22 one more night. Thank you.
23 So shall we start then? Shall we move on to
24 Witness No. 3?
25 JUDGE CASSESE: What sort of
1 protection? Pseudonym?
2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Face and name protection,
3 Your Honour, and I would request that the first several
4 questions be done in closed session and then we can go
5 to open session shortly thereafter.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Let's go into closed session
7 right away. We are in closed session. It is HH?
8 (closed session)
13 Page 4439 redacted in closed session
13 Page 4440 redacted in closed session
13 Page 4441 redacted in closed session
1 (Open session)
2 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
3 Q. Now, could you, Witness HH, tell us whether
4 you came to Central Bosnia in late April or early May
5 of 1993?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Could you tell us why you arrived in Central
8 Bosnia at that time?
9 A. We had received reports that an atrocity had
10 occurred in Central Bosnia, and we were requested to
11 conduct a fact-finding mission for the Special
12 Rapporteur Tadeusz Mazowiecki.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Please make pauses between
14 questions and answers.
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I'm sorry, I will slow down.
16 Q. Could you tell us a little more specifically
17 perhaps what your objective was in travelling to
18 Central Bosnia for the Human Rights Commission?
19 A. We were requested to do a fact-finding
20 mission. In fact, we were requested to do an
21 investigation by British battalion, the European
22 Community, a number of other players. However, we were
23 not qualified and did not have the mandate to conduct
24 what would be considered an investigation other than a
25 human rights fact-finding investigation.
1 If I could just point out one thing which
2 would be the difference between a criminal
3 investigation - according to our mandate - and a human
4 rights investigation. As a human rights officer, we
5 were looking for the responsibility of local
6 authorities or governments, if you will, not individual
7 perpetrators. So the fact-finding mission would
8 include a general situation and a basic report to what
9 had happened in whatever situation we were required.
10 For the most part, those investigations would be
11 following legal issues, not necessarily criminal acts.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us with whom you
13 travelled to Central Bosnia at that time?
14 A. With my colleague Payam Akhavan.
15 Q. Do you recall approximately when you arrived
16 in Central Bosnia and where you went on that day?
17 A. We left Zagreb on the 30th of April, 1993,
18 travelled to British battalion near Vitez on the 30th
19 via Kiseljak. We were, in fact, picked up at Kiseljak
20 by the mail patrol from British battalion.
21 Q. Before I proceed further, you had mentioned
22 earlier that before travelling to Central Bosnia, you
23 had received word of an atrocity there. Were there any
24 particular villages or towns that were named as perhaps
25 being the subject of an atrocity?
1 A. Yes. We were specifically told the village
2 of Ahmici.
3 Q. Now, after you arrived in the area, at the
4 British camp or BRITBAT camp near Vitez, do you recall
5 what you did on the following day?
6 A. On the following day, the 30th, or would this
7 be the 1st?
8 Q. The first full day you were there.
9 A. Well, we did arrive late on the 30th; in
10 fact, it took all day to travel. It wasn't very easy,
11 in 1993, to move around Bosnia. The first date -- on
12 the first -- well, we were briefed by British
13 battalion. They were in the process of rotating
14 between the Cheshire regiment and the Prince of Wales',
15 and so we joined in a regular briefing for the benefit
16 of the Prince of Wales', basically dealing with road
17 maps and a situation report, at which time we had asked
18 if we could go to the village of Ahmici just for an
19 initial contact. We had never seen the village
20 before. And we were told that if we join a patrol,
21 that we would be given that opportunity, which we did.
22 Q. Could you recall for us where you went on
23 patrol that day and what your impressions were?
24 A. We covered quite a bit of territory. I think
25 that we were probably in the tank -- actually, they had
1 opened the hatches, so we were riding -- so that we
2 could view the area from the back of the tank.
3 We probably travelled around for about, I
4 would say, maybe two and a half, three hours, and we
5 had a brief stop in the village of Ahmici. I don't
6 even recall if we actually went into the village
7 itself. We may have. But it was -- this patrol was
8 for the benefit of the incoming battalion; it really
9 wasn't geared at showing us the village of Ahmici. It
10 was a stopover. We had no communications with the tank
11 commanders or the driver that would indicate -- at one
12 point, someone just pointed out and said, "This is the
13 village of Ahmici."
14 Q. Did you form any quick impressions about
15 Ahmici that first day?
16 A. Not really, no. I wouldn't say any
17 opinions. There was still some smoke in the area, but
18 no, not any special opinion, no.
19 Q. Do you recall speaking with Payam Akhavan
20 sometime that day or that night, and discussing how you
21 would divide up responsibilities?
22 A. We needed to do two things. That first day
23 really didn't work for us at all. We needed to get
24 more attention from the officers of British battalion
25 to assist us. We wanted to go to the village. We
1 wanted to find some of the survivors from the village
2 of Ahmici, but the battalion and the officers, they
3 were very busy. They did not have a lot of time for
4 us, and certainly they weren't able to just assign
5 officers to us.
6 So what we decided to do was to split up and
7 have -- it was agreed at that time that Payam, Payam
8 Akhavan, my colleague, would stay with British
9 battalion because they have considerable knowledge on
10 the area and of the events of the 16th of April, and
11 try to learn as much as possible from the officers and
12 the soldiers as possible.
13 I would attempt to find the survivors, which
14 I had an indication were in Zenica, or there was a
15 group that was in Zenica.
16 Q. And as part of the reason for dividing those
17 duties the way you did, would part of that reason be
18 your language skills?
19 A. Yes, absolutely. Yes.
20 Q. Did you, in fact, go to Zenica on the
21 following day to try to find some of the survivors from
23 A. Yes, I did. British battalion had a regular
24 shuttle between the battalion headquarters and the
25 Hotel Internacional in Zenica.
1 Q. And did you, in fact, locate the -- some of
2 the survivors from Ahmici?
3 A. Yes, I did. In Zenica I was able to obtain
4 information that there was a number -- I wasn't
5 certain, but I was told that there was a number of
6 survivors in the cinema across the river.
7 Q. Can you tell us what this cinema was or is?
8 A. The cinema. I arrived, I would imagine,
9 sometime around 11.00, 10.30-11.00, and approached the
10 building itself and there were people outside the
11 building, just sort of walking around, and I asked if
12 there were any survivors from Ahmici immediately to
13 some of the people who were standing outside.
14 Q. And what were you told?
15 A. Well, actually taken. My initial contact was
16 just someone who I don't, know who was there, said that
17 he knew of some survivors and directed me into the
18 cinema itself, and so I followed this person or
19 persons, there was actually quite a few people at that
20 point, into the cinema itself, and found that there
21 were perhaps as many -- there was several hundred
22 people in the cinema, in the hallway, as well as
23 sleeping between the rows and in the aisles of the
24 cinema itself. It was very dark. I was directed to a
25 couple of rows in the lower part.
1 I actually went down one of the aisles and
2 met with some people. It was completely dark. It was
3 something that wasn't going to work.
4 I was about to strike up a conversation when
5 I asked this individual, "Is there a room? There has
6 to be someplace where I can meet these people. There's
7 no way I can talk under these conditions."
8 So we immediately left, and a few minutes
9 later someone produced a key to a room that was just
10 off of the cinema some -- I don't know, a room of some
12 Q. And did you try to make use of that room in
13 talking to some of these survivors from Ahmici?
14 A. Well, the individual that appeared with the
15 key, I introduced myself. While we were standing, I
16 tried to introduce myself to a group of people that had
17 already collected. You know, many people, maybe 30,
18 maybe 40. I displayed my ID card.
19 The displaced persons were quite hostile
20 towards me. I wasn't really accepted. I showed -- I
21 displayed my ID, and I explained to them I'm with the
22 Centre for Human Rights, and that I speak the language
23 because I had lived in Belgrade and that I'm here with
24 the Mazowiecki team.
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.
1 Mr. President, I notice the time is a little
2 past our usual lunch-hour.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Shall we now adjourn until
4 2.00? We stand adjourned.
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.38 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon.
3 Mr. Moskowitz.
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 May I proceed, Mr. President?
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.
7 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
8 Q. Now, Witness HH, we left off this morning
9 with your description of the cinema on the second full
10 day that you were in the area of Central Bosnia, and
11 this is the cinema in Zenica. You were describing how
12 some of the survivors of Ahmici appeared to be hostile
13 towards you. Could you elaborate on that a little
14 bit? How do you know they were hostile towards you and
15 what sorts of things were they doing?
16 A. Maybe the word "hostile" isn't appropriate.
17 I wasn't accepted, in other words. You have to
18 understand that these people were being housed in very
19 bad conditions. The -- most of them were in shock, and
20 I represented, for whatever reason -- my belief is that
21 they thought that I represented the International
22 Community, and they were asking -- they were saying,
23 "Why you are you coming now? Where were you to save
24 us? Why now? Why? We won't even talk to you, it's
25 completely irrelevant." That's what I meant with
1 hostility. They didn't necessarily want to talk to
3 The other thing is I didn't approach this
4 right. There were too many people there in the hallway
5 as well as -- as we started to move towards this small
6 room, and I wanted to focus on what had happened in
7 Ahmici, and I wanted to talk to individuals from
8 Ahmici. However, there were people from all over
9 Central Bosnia there, and so I was trying to ask
10 smaller groups if they were from the village of Ahmici
11 or if they knew who was from the village so I could get
12 people from Ahmici to talk to.
13 Q. Were you at all successful in being able to
14 talk to specific individuals and obtain a coherent
15 picture of what happened in Ahmici on that day?
16 A. No, no, not really. Not really. I was able
17 to talk to a number of people. I was actually
18 bombarded with information. There was a -- at one
19 point everyone was almost talking at the same time. I
20 was not controlling the situation.
21 Q. Despite the fact that this situation was not
22 conducive for obtaining coherent information, do you
23 recollect that you did, in fact, get some information,
24 and if so, could you tell us what that was?
25 A. I had -- I had a basic understanding. When I
1 left the cinema, I had a basic understanding of what
2 had transpired. I knew bits of information. I knew,
3 for example, that there had been an attack, that it
4 started early in the morning. Little bits of
6 I can't really put it together, because after
7 that point I had gained so much more information. I
8 really don't know exactly what I had that first day,
9 but lots of little bits of information.
10 There were several individuals that wanted to
11 talk to me. There were two or three that I had
12 intended on somehow getting back to them and finding
13 those particular individuals, because they seemed to --
14 well, one, they were from the village. A lot of the
15 people I was talking to on the first day were not from
16 the village, were not in any way witnesses but had
17 second, third, fourth-hand information. So that
18 situation wasn't working out at all.
19 Q. Now, that night, I take it, you returned to
20 the BRITBAT base near Vitez?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Did you meet up with Payam Akhavan that
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Did you speak with him?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did he tell you?
3 A. He had a fruitful day with the battalion. He
4 was able to talk to several officers that had been on
5 patrol in Ahmici the day -- on the 16th of April. He
6 had touched on a lot of the issues regarding how the
7 chain of command worked, who the patrols would report
8 to, and had a basic understanding on how British
9 battalion operated, which was very important for us to
10 understand how they would be in a position to help us.
11 Q. Did you, at that time, begin to feel a need
12 that you yourself needed to go to the village and
13 inspect the village more carefully before speaking to
14 victims and survivors of Ahmici?
15 A. We had -- Payam and I discussed that we
16 should request directly that we be provided with
17 assistance to visit Ahmici.
18 Q. Did you make such a request of BRITBAT and
19 was it accepted?
20 A. Yes. We made the request to operations or to
21 a higher ranking officer, and they told us that they
22 would organise something for us.
23 Q. And on the next day, the next full day, did
24 you, in fact, go to Ahmici with BRITBAT in support?
25 A. Yes. The following morning we were assigned
1 a detail, two vehicles, and they were basically put at
2 our disposal.
3 Q. Now, behind you, Witness HH, is Exhibit P2,
4 which is a blow-up of the village of Ahmici. Could you
5 look at that and tell us, if you might, and demonstrate
6 for us where you went in Ahmici that day with BRITBAT.
7 I'm hoping there's a pointer there.
8 A. Can I turn that map? Is that appropriate?
9 No, the actual map.
10 Q. I think the witness is more comfortable with
11 the map in a different --
12 A. I'm sorry. This is the way I remember the
14 Q. And I might point out that for reasons that I
15 still haven't understood, north on this map is always
16 on the bottom instead of at the top, and now the way
17 the map is arranged for this witness it is more towards
18 the top, so I can understand why it is more easily
19 understood by this witness in this configuration.
20 Is this better for you?
21 A. Yes, yes. This is how I remember it.
22 Q. Using the pointer you have in your hand, and
23 you can extend it so it's longer, can you demonstrate
24 for us how you approached the village of Ahmici on that
25 day and what route you took into the village?
1 A. I think we were -- we were locked in, for the
2 most part, until we arrived at the village. We had
3 agreed with the tank commander, or the person that was
4 put in charge of our security and escort, that we would
5 start in an area where British battalion had collected
6 a number of bodies, and that would be in this location
7 here (indicating).
8 Q. That would be directly across from the
9 cemetery on there?
10 A. Yes. Yes, directly. We started there, and
11 actually left the vehicles. There was a reason for
13 Q. What is that reason?
14 A. The evening before, we had discussed with
15 British battalion and Payam had gained some information
16 that a number of bodies had been collected by British
17 battalion. And by that not a specific number, but over
18 20 or 30 bodies had been discovered and a number of
19 them collected by British battalion, as well as some
20 locals were seen by British battalion, and that was in
21 this area (indicating).
22 What was important about that, is it was
23 brought to our attention that most of the wounds that
24 were reported to us by the individuals who collected
25 the bodies, is that they had single or perhaps two
1 bullet wounds, but mostly single, a single shot through
2 the head and neck.
3 That gave us an indication that perhaps we
4 would be looking for sniper positions, and that's why
5 we began in this area, to see if we could identify any
6 sniper positions that might have been utilised.
7 Q. And did you find any indications of such
8 positions --
9 A. Well, we found certain positions. We don't
10 know if they would be sniper positions. We found
11 firing positions, and the only reason we could describe
12 it as such is that we found a larger -- or groups of
13 spent cartridges in an area -- actually in two areas.
14 I'm not really clear on this map, but there was a
15 feature, I would imagine right about here (indicating),
16 or it could be this feature. It's where the ground --
17 well, yeah, it would be right about here. The ploughed
18 or flat area then took a small ditch here, and also
19 just around this area next to the road.
20 Q. And what did you find in those areas?
21 A. Spent shell casings.
22 Q. Were you told what kind of shells these were
23 by the British soldiers that were with you?
24 A. We asked. They didn't look like the standard
25 AK-47 shell. I'm not an expert in it. We picked up a
1 shell casing because they looked a bit larger than the
2 regular shell casings, and they said this probably from
3 a higher -- or a more powerful weapon than the AK-47.
4 Q. Where else did you go in the village that
5 day, or where did you go next?
6 A. We wanted to continue on the field but we
7 were warned that there could be unexploded ordinances
8 or perhaps mines, so we basically remained on the road
9 and walked in this direction.
10 Q. You're pointing to the main road?
11 A. Yes, this is the main road.
12 Q. Did you see anything of interest while you
13 walked along the main road?
14 A. We walked up to this house. I believe it's
15 either this one or this one, I'm not sure if that was
16 really a house -- yeah, it would be. It's the first
17 house off the field. We walked up to a destroyed
19 Q. And did you notice anything interesting about
20 that house?
21 A. Nothing special. We did find a -- we did
22 find a burnt flag in front of one of the homes. It was
23 taken by one of the soldiers.
24 Q. What kind of flag was that do you remember?
25 A. I'm not sure if it could be called a Muslim
1 flag, but it was a green flag with Arabic writing on
2 it. I'm not really sure what the flag represents.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. But it was a flag. It was -- there was no
5 question about that.
6 We then boarded the vehicles and headed up --
7 we actually spent some time here (indicating), actually
8 in the vehicles looking around a bit. We then
9 continued up the road to -- well, I think that we first
10 went all the way up the village, turned around and then
11 continued down the road. We wanted to have a view. I
12 think the intent was to get an idea of how many homes
13 there were. We received information that there were
14 approximately 180 homes, and that they were all
15 destroyed. We weren't really interested in counting,
16 but just an idea to be able to say that for the most
17 part the homes were destroyed.
18 Q. And did your observation bear that out --?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. -- that for the most part the homes were
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were all of the homes destroyed or were some
24 of the homes left intact?
25 A. No. We also heard, the day before, that we
1 would find, on the left-hand side on the main road
2 going to Ahmici, a number of homes that were untouched.
3 Q. And did your observations bear that out as
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know what kind of homes were left
8 A. We were told that these would be Croat
10 Q. Did you have an opportunity to examine some
11 of these homes and looking around the areas of these
12 homes, determine whether there was anything of interest
13 that you saw?
14 A. We had intended to actually go to those homes
15 and to talk to anyone that we could find there.
16 Q. These would be now -- you're referring to the
17 Croat homes that were untouched?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. With respect, first of all, however, to the
20 Muslim homes that were destroyed, did you have a sense
21 of how they were destroyed, and did you find any
22 evidence in the vicinity of those homes that you can
23 share with us?
24 A. Well, we had -- we parked -- well, we didn't
25 park. The soldiers parked their vehicles somewhere
1 around here, just by the -- just by a destroyed
2 mosque. I guess that's it right there. So we first
3 walked down this road, visited, I would imagine that it
4 was this house here, or it could be this one. I think
5 it's the first house down the road. I don't know if
6 these are connected, but the first house down the road,
7 and -- well, one of the things that was striking is we
8 found a number of shell casings in front of each home.
9 Some marks from bullets being fired at the homes. They
10 were certainly gutted by fire. In fact, that first
11 home was still smouldering, at least in the basement.
12 Well, actually, at that first house we
13 noticed a bag, a travel bag in front of the house, just
14 between the house and a garage that some things had
15 been thrown inside. We didn't want to touch the bag,
16 because we were basically instructed by the soldiers
17 not to touch anything, but there was something very
18 distinct inside the bag, which is an ID card, which is
19 a very important document. So I retrieved this
20 document from the bag as carefully as possible and took
21 it with me.
22 Q. Why did you take that ID --
23 A. I don't know. It's -- it's a very important
24 document, and I don't know, I thought I would return it
25 to the owner somehow. I don't know.
1 Q. Now, a moment ago you said that you did
2 intend to try to speak to some of the Croat people who
3 were still in the village. Did you, in fact, attempt
4 to carry out that plan while you were in Ahmici that
6 A. We had been told that -- by the survivors
7 that we had found in Zenica that all of the Muslim
8 homes had been destroyed and that the Croat homes were
9 untouched. This is how it was relayed to me.
10 We wanted to be able to confirm that by
11 speaking to someone or going up to one of the homes,
12 which we attempted to do.
13 Q. And what happened as you attempted to do
14 that? Did you see anything of interest as you
15 attempted to do that?
16 A. We -- the homes were in this general area
17 here, and we were off on the road. It's probably this
18 field here if there's a fence. Yes, probably this
19 field here. We noticed a woman and two children
20 walking down a path by the tree-line, coming obviously
21 from one of those homes. So rather than walk to one of
22 the homes, we decided we'll just cross the field and
23 speak to them.
24 Q. And were you able to speak to this woman?
25 A. No. No, we were not.
1 Q. What prevented you from doing that?
2 A. We were fired upon.
3 Q. How many shots were fired at you, if you can
5 A. There was first a single shot that told us
6 that there's something not right about this, and there
7 was certainly a second shot that was in our
8 direction -- I think it makes a very characteristic
9 sound when someone shoots at you -- and we fled to the
10 vehicles that were parked here, roughly here. I think
11 all in all perhaps four shots that I recall. I would
12 say four.
13 Q. Was anyone injured from this shooting?
14 A. Yes. One of the soldiers from -- I think
15 from the second vehicle was hit in the back.
16 Q. Do you know if that was a serious strike or
17 was it --
18 A. He -- I actually saw this individual later.
19 It was deflected off of a bullet-proof vest, but,
20 nevertheless, left a mark on I think his left-hand
22 Q. And you left in a hurry?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let's go to the next day. Having now visited
25 Ahmici and seeing the village in some more detail, what
1 did you then decide to do that day, the next day?
2 A. That evening, the evening -- that evening we
3 sat down and we reviewed what we had seen. I had some
4 information that I'd gained the first time I was in
5 Zenica, and a lot of this was confirmed, but I couldn't
6 remember -- I couldn't remember who told me that, so my
7 intention was to now try to locate certain individuals
8 who had relayed certain messages or this information to
9 me to get down to business and really establish some
11 Q. So did you, in fact, go to Zenica that day?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you take that ID card with you that you
14 had found in Ahmici?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Did that ID card provide to be quite useful
17 when you returned to the cinema?
18 A. Interestingly, yes. It provided proof that
19 I'd been to the village of Ahmici.
20 Q. And why was that important?
21 A. Maybe it wasn't important. I just -- we had
22 a better reception the following day than I had the
23 first time I visited Zenica.
24 Q. Would you describe for us in a little more
25 detail the situation as you found it, and the reception
1 that you received the second day at the cinema?
2 A. First of all, it's important to -- that I
3 tell you that there weren't as many people the second
4 time. The -- I don't know if it was the time of day or
5 why, but there were certainly -- there was half the
6 people there in the centre than there was the first
8 We entered into the cinema and asked to speak
9 with some of the people that we had talked to -- that I
10 had talked to the first day, and I also had this ID
11 card and I said, "Do you know where this person is?"
12 And I spoke to someone there who said, "No, but I can
13 find her and I will deliver the ID card," which I did.
14 But this ID card became something very
15 important to them. It was proof that I'd been to the
16 village. Not that it established any proof, but that's
17 how it was perceived.
18 Q. And by the way, did you go back to the same
19 room at the cinema that you had used the day --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- the day before?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Approximately how many people do you think
24 were in the room as you began to talk to these people?
25 A. Well, first there was a number of people who
1 wanted to enter the room, and I asked to speak to only
2 people from Ahmici. So, in fact, I was able to exclude
3 a few people from the room because I wanted to
4 concentrate only on Ahmici. So I would say between 12
5 and 15, and a number of children as well, 4 or 5
6 children, 4 children.
7 Q. Did the situation involving yourself and
8 these survivors from Ahmici in that room, was that a
9 situation that you can describe as one in which you
10 were interviewing them, or was it, at least initially,
11 a kind of exchange of information between you and them,
12 a much more informal kind of situation?
13 A. No. I think when the people realised I'd
14 been to the village they were very interested to know
15 what I'd seen, and I spent the better part of two hours
16 explaining to them what I had seen. They were very
17 quiet. They asked very simple questions: "Did you see
18 my house?" "Did you see this street?" "Did you see
19 any bodies?" Questions like that.
20 Q. You mentioned there were some children in the
21 room while these questions were being asked.
22 Approximately how many children and how were they
23 sitting or where were they in the room?
24 A. We were sitting on a table, and there was a
25 billiards table -- there was a covered table, either a
1 billiards table or a ping-pong table that was covered.
2 So I was sitting at a table next to the wall,
3 and I had two or three people sitting, maybe three or
4 four standing, and the children were sitting on the
5 table facing.
6 Q. Were you comfortable with the situation, that
7 there were children in the room?
8 A. No, I was not.
9 Q. Why not?
10 A. The questions were getting -- I think the
11 first time I reacted is the questions were getting very
12 much, "Did you see my husband's body?" and I was
13 uncomfortable with that with the children there.
14 They -- they were just sitting there, and they were --
15 it just made me feel extremely uncomfortable. It's
16 difficult to describe.
17 Q. Do you recall one of the children speaking up
18 at one point?
19 A. When we were discussing some of the houses, I
20 had mentioned that I had been to a house and described
21 the house and a garage, and this was supposedly a
22 mechanic's house, or maybe not -- I'm not really
23 sure -- but a young girl jumped off the table and came
24 straight to me and asked me if I had seen her father in
25 front of the garage, at which point I told her that I
1 didn't. She repeated to me the question, she said,
2 "How didn't you see him? He was lying right there in
3 front of the garage." And -- yeah.
4 Q. Did you know her name?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. How old was she; could you take a guess?
7 A. Twelve. Eleven, twelve.
8 Q. Now, at one point, did you begin to focus on
9 a particular individual and begin to ask that
10 individual some questions about what had happened in
12 A. There was a lady that I had noticed on the
13 first occasion, she was very outspoken, and I had
14 learned that she was the administrator or receptionist
15 or dealt with the archives, I'm not really sure of her
16 position, but she worked in the local clinic, and I
17 actually asked for her when I came into the cinema. I
18 think she was the first person that I wanted to talk
20 Q. Did you, in fact, speak to her?
21 A. Yes. She was present.
22 Q. Did you come to learn her name?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. What is her name, as far as you know?
25 A. Her last name is (redacted)
1 Q. As you spoke to her, did you take notes?
2 A. Yes, some.
3 Q. Do you know what's happened to those notes?
4 A. They weren't really detailed notes. I wasn't
5 planning on filing these notes or anything like that.
6 They were really for my use to provide a report to the
7 Special Rapporteur, but, yes, I was taking notes.
8 Q. Do you know where those notes are now?
9 A. No. No, I do not. We had no -- in the
10 Centre for Human Rights, we had no procedure to file
11 notes per se. In fact, we weren't instructed to take
12 statements or anything like that. We were told to do a
13 fact-finding mission and to report our findings to the
14 Special Rapporteur in the effort to have a proper
15 inquiry into the situation. What my boss or the
16 Special Rapporteur could provide was a political outlet
17 for such information that may convince a government, an
18 institution or so on, to conduct a full-scale
19 investigation. My job was to report to this
21 Q. So you were not doing a criminal
22 investigation, nor were you --
23 A. No.
24 Q. -- trying to take interviews in a criminal
1 A. If I may add something?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I think that this is one of the great
4 frustrations that we had in the Centre for Human
5 Rights, and I also believe that this is -- if I may? --
6 this is what brought about even the creation of the
7 ICTY, was the frustration of not being able to
8 investigate crimes.
9 British battalion, to my understanding, was
10 not in the position, according to their mandate; the
11 European Union was not in the position to investigate
12 alleged atrocities; we certainly were not in the
13 position to investigate. We could do fact-finding.
14 And it was -- it was the intention of the ICTY to bring
15 this information to light and to only hope that we
16 could get a proper inquiry put together.
17 Q. Now, at some point did you decide to try
18 something perhaps a little unique or different with
19 this particular person you were talking to in terms of
20 preserving a statement?
21 A. She had -- the administrator I'm speaking
22 about -- she had a wealth of information, but I was not
23 interested in getting all the details. At the same
24 time, I thought that what she had to say was extremely
25 important, and I felt, well, I don't want to miss this
1 opportunity to take down some of this information.
2 At the same time, I wanted to get -- I wanted
3 to speak to as many people as possible and to get
4 different information on different areas in the
5 village. So I had a dictaphone with me and I thought
6 that it might be an idea to give it to her and ask her
7 to tape her statement, to basically -- what she wanted
8 to tell me, to put down on the tape machine. This
9 would then assist me in providing information further
10 on down the line.
11 Q. Did you, in fact, give her this tape machine?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. What instructions did you give her when you
14 gave the tape machine to her?
15 A. I told her that "I need to move on," but that
16 I think that what she has to say is very important, and
17 I said, "If you speak into this tape recorder, it will
18 take down whatever you say," and if she wanted to do
19 that? And she agreed. I switched it on -- she was
20 right next to me on the table. I switched it on and
21 she asked me, "What do I say?" I said, "Start with
22 your name and then try to focus on what happened that
23 day, and that's it. Just speak and just let it flow."
24 Q. What were you doing while she was speaking
25 into that tape machine?
1 A. I was talking to others in the room.
2 Q. So I take it you were not listening to her as
3 she spoke into the tape machine?
4 A. Not really. She was very close to me. I
5 mean, I could hear her speaking, but I wasn't paying
6 particular attention, no.
7 Q. And about how long did she keep that tape
8 machine before she returned it to you?
9 A. A half an hour or so? Approximately a half
10 an hour. I mean, it's -- I'm not really sure if she
11 even ran the course. Maybe 15 to 20 -- maybe half an
12 hour. I'm not really sure.
13 Q. When she returned it to you, what happened to
14 the tape machine at that point?
15 A. Well, when she had finished, she came to me
16 and said that she had finished and I switched it off,
17 but there was an individual that, in my opinion, was in
18 shock. She, as I say -- a thin lady, blondish hair,
19 standing -- she was staring at me the whole time. She
20 never really asked anything. She asked for the tape
21 recorder and said, "I want to make a statement," and
22 asked for it, and I said, "Okay," switched it on and
23 provided it to her as well.
24 Q. Have you come to know that lady's name, the
25 thin lady who took the machine?
1 A. I believe that that is [redacted].
2 Q. Do you recall how long she had the tape
4 A. Very short, very shortly. I don't know why
5 she took it in the first place, but she -- a few
6 minutes, maybe seven to ten minutes maximum -- not even
7 that, maybe seven minutes or so. I don't think that
8 she, in the end, thought it was as easy. I believe
9 that she wanted very much to talk to me but couldn't --
10 couldn't get through and that this would be a way to
11 say what she wanted to say.
12 Q. Now, when was the first time you actually
13 listened to that tape?
14 A. Probably in Zagreb or maybe later on that
15 day, but -- I think -- I think later in Zagreb
16 probably, two, three days later perhaps.
17 Q. After you returned from Bosnia?
18 A. I believe so, yes.
19 Q. What was the quality of the tape when you
20 listened to it?
21 A. Very poor.
22 Q. Could you elaborate?
23 A. There was a lot of background noise. It was
24 a very bad idea to begin with because I had to really
25 fight to hear every word that was on there, and there
1 are great gaps in the sentences.
2 Q. So you could not hear every word on the tape?
3 A. No, no.
4 Q. What has happened to that tape; do you know?
5 A. I don't know what happened to that tape.
6 Q. You don't have it any more?
7 A. No, I do not have that tape.
8 Q. Did you attempt to get information off of
9 that tape in some way?
10 A. Yes, I did. When we returned to Zagreb, we
11 received an indication that a proper inquiry would be
12 conducted, so apart from writing the report and
13 submitting the report to Mazowiecki, I was looking to
14 provide some information for future investigators that
15 we had hoped would come to the field.
16 Q. So how did you use that tape in compiling
17 this report, if you used it at all?
18 A. I didn't really use the tape to compile the
19 report at all. That was -- that was much later,
20 actually. I listened to the tape, certainly, but
21 realised that it was useless, and we compiled the
22 report basically from notes and from recollection.
23 Q. Did you prepare, perhaps for your own use or
24 for the use of anyone else, a kind of -- sort of
25 memorandum that preserved in some form the gist of the
1 information that both you found on the tape, given the
2 difficulties you had in --
3 A. I was -- I was preparing to do so, and there
4 was a document, a transcription/translation that I was
5 preparing, but it was never sent. It stayed -- it just
6 stayed with the files.
7 Q. Do you have that document?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, could you tell us what you recall from
12 your conversation with, first of all, (redacted)
13 of course, you can use the memorandum that you prepared
14 to refresh your recollection if you need to do so.
15 A. Well, it was -- first of all, it was very
16 difficult to transcribe and to translate. I had to go
17 back many times to get the information. But it
18 basically told of the killing of her husband as well as
19 how she was able to escape the situation; in fact, how
20 she was helped by HVO soldiers to leave the area.
21 Q. HVO soldiers to leave the area?
22 A. Yes. At one point, if I'm not -- I have it
23 here. Near the end, there's a -- or it could be a
24 friend or an acquaintance.
25 No, I confused that. A name is mentioned, a
1 name is mentioned, of the individual who helped her and
2 her two children go to a collection point of other
3 survivors from Ahmici.
4 Q. As you're looking at this memorandum that you
5 have, does it indicate in there that she named any
6 people who were at her house when her husband was
8 A. Yes, she does.
9 Q. What are the names that she mentioned or that
10 you recall her mentioning and that you included in this
12 A. Well, she has a number of names here. She
13 has Alilovic Stipo, known as Brcko, Josipovic Drago,
14 Santic Drago, Alilovic -- no, that's the same name.
15 That's repeated again. She has [redacted], Papic
16 Anto, and the Papic home is mentioned.
17 Q. Now, when you are speaking about the Papic
18 home, would that be where she indicated or your notes
19 indicate she had said she was taken?
20 A. This is -- for the most part, this is what
21 was on the tape that I could gather. As I said, this
22 was not intended to be a statement as such. This was
23 to be starting information for -- to hand to another
24 individual or an investigator, and it's basically what
25 came from the tape as well as some recollection of what
1 she had told me.
2 Q. Although I believe you said that there were
3 large parts of the tape you couldn't hear or make out
4 or transcribe?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. In fact, the memo appears to end in
7 mid-sentence; is that right?
8 A. There was a lot more than this. I mean, this
9 tape went on much longer than this and -- it does. But
10 at one point, the lady must have moved away from the
11 microphone to a position where it really became useless
12 to even try. I think, in the beginning, she was more
13 focused and closer to it, but at one point, that was
14 it. It was useless to continue.
15 Q. Now, you also mentioned a second lady,
16 Sadeta. What do you recall her saying? If you could
17 summarise using the memorandum you prepared to refresh
18 your recollection?
19 A. It's the same thing. She's the second
20 person. She actually -- I did not intend to tape a
21 statement at all, but she asked for the tape recorder,
22 so I gave it to her, and she once again describes the
23 murder of her husband.
24 Q. This is the woman who you said looked to be
25 in shock when you spoke to her?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Looking at your memo, is there any indication
3 that she made or named any names of people who were
4 responsible for what had happened in her house?
5 A. No, she did not.
6 Q. Did you specifically ask her to make sure she
7 put in names into her account?
8 A. We never really asked for names. As I said
9 in the beginning, we were not interested in individual
10 perpetrators. That was not our job. We were
11 interested to know and, for example, this person, I'd
12 be interested if she would be a good witness for the
13 future should there -- should an investigator -- so
14 that I could direct that person to her. That's what I
15 was more interested in with these notes.
16 Q. Now, towards the end of the day, did you
17 speak to some of these people and make a specific
18 request of them, something more concrete, something
19 that you could really use?
20 A. Well, I had -- we had been to the village the
21 day before, and in my mind, we needed to have something
22 concrete in terms of a description. Yes, it was as
23 they described, all the homes in the village were
24 destroyed except for a few, they were gutted by fire,
25 et cetera, et cetera. However, the people in the room,
1 they were witnesses, and I knew that but I needed to
2 confirm that.
3 I then asked for very -- at one point -- by
4 this point, I had been talking to them for over three
5 hours, and I said, "You must help me. I need to find
6 some concrete evidence that I can prove that what
7 you're saying is true." And I asked, "I need to
8 speak -- who here is an eyewitness who can --" not the
9 ones from earlier but something specific. And some
10 individuals came forward.
11 Q. Did you receive some concrete examples, and
12 if so, could you tell us what they were?
13 A. I received three, what I would call "leads"
14 at that point. There was one, it was the house across
15 from the mosque where the individual that was in the
16 room believed there were eight persons in the
17 basement -- eight people in the basement that she had
18 seen enter but not leave.
19 There was a lady that -- it was difficult.
20 At one point I stood up and -- standing in place. But
21 when I stood up, she came to me and wanted to talk only
22 to me, and she told me that her child had been killed
23 by gunfire through the doorway, or through the window,
24 and that she had wrapped her child in a blanket and
25 placed the child behind the door of her home. She
1 described the home to me, and I was very focused on
2 finding that home.
3 The third was, at the time, not very
4 important to me because it was second-hand
5 information. I was told that there was a man in the
6 Zenica hospital who was seriously injured and that he
7 had witnessed the killing of his son, his
8 daughter-in-law, and their two children, that the house
9 number was number 5 and that I will find probably the
10 bodies in the second room where this person had told
11 her they had been shot.
12 Q. Do you know which person told you about House
13 number 5 at the cinema?
14 A. No. No, I do not. But if I may?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. This was -- this was at a time when I
17 realised that I had to go, and I knew that we'd get an
18 opportunity to go back, and I wanted to look for
19 specific cases, so I put these three together on a
20 piece of paper just -- you know, just short notes on
21 what to look for because I believed that (1) they would
22 describe the individuals that I would find inside of a
23 home rather than outside of a home, which is very
24 important because we didn't see any bodies outside of
25 any of the homes.
1 Q. Then did you formulate a plan to return to
2 Ahmici the next day to try to substantiate some of
3 these claims?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you, in fact, go to Ahmici the next day
6 along with BRITBAT support?
7 A. Yes, we did. However, it wasn't in support
8 of our fact-finding mission.
9 Q. Would you tell us why BRITBAT was in Ahmici
10 with you that day?
11 A. BRITBAT was escorting, I believe, four, or it
12 could be even five, European ambassadors who were
13 deployed to -- I assume also to look at the village of
14 Ahmici. I'm not really sure. But they were -- the
15 British battalion was escorting them that day, and we
16 were told that we could come along and we could do our
17 search then.
18 Q. Was the media there, by the way, on that day?
19 A. There was media there, yes.
20 Q. Were they normally there where the -- well,
21 who did they normally follow around, the media?
22 A. I really wouldn't know who they normally
23 followed -- they certainly didn't follow us. There
24 were ambassadors; these were high-ranking individuals
25 that were visiting the area. I think that they were
1 following them.
2 Q. Could you tell us what you did in Ahmici that
3 day in your attempts to substantiate these claims that
4 you had heard at the cinema the day before?
5 A. Well, we were transported to the village
6 together with the ambassadors and, at this point, a
7 very high level of security that was provided for the
8 ambassadors. I was able to convince a number of
9 soldiers that they should assist me on the spot to look
10 for these three locations.
11 The first location, according to the
12 description that I had received, was the house right
13 across from the mosque.
14 Q. This would be the house where the person felt
15 there may be eight or so bodies in the house?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. What did you see or find when you arrived at
18 that location across from the mosque?
19 A. I actually saw that location when we were
20 driving by, and according to the description that was
21 given to me, it would have been almost impossible for
22 us to go into the basement because the house had
23 completely crumbled in on itself and there were maybe
24 two walls standing, but it looked like a very dangerous
25 situation, so I felt that it would be impossible to
1 attempt to go into the basement without engineers going
2 in first.
3 Q. What was the second house you tried to find?
4 A. That was a great disappointment because I had
5 the description of the home but I didn't have the -- I
6 couldn't find the area of where this home was located.
7 I had a general idea of where it would be, but I -- I
8 didn't have a house number, I didn't have off of which
9 street and so on, and it could have been any. I had
10 the description, but, of course, the rubble did not
11 match the description of these homes. So I then
12 decided to go for the last one, the last description,
13 which was House number 5.
14 Q. Did you immediately find House number 5?
15 A. No. I knew the general area because it had
16 been described to me, but it was not easy -- it was not
17 easy to find. In fact, we were very pressed for time
18 because Colonel Stewart of the British battalion was
19 ready to move on.
20 Q. And, in fact, were you about ready to move on
21 when you yourself asked for some favour from the
23 A. Yes. Yes, I did. I asked Colonel Stewart --
24 I believed that we could find the house in question,
25 and this was very important for us, this was the
1 confirmation that we were looking for, and I asked him
2 for five more minutes. Actually, in a bit of
3 desperation, I ran -- one of the soldiers told me that
4 we were going to be moving soon, and so I ran from one
5 location down to sort of the crossroads to the Colonel,
6 asked him for five more minutes, he said, "Right. We
7 will be moving on, but I'll give you, you know, a few
8 more minutes," at which point I returned to the same
9 place where I was looking for House number 5 and,
10 fortunately, some soldiers had then located this house.
11 Q. Can you point out on that map behind you
12 where House number 5 is?
13 A. House number 5 is in this general area, and
14 if I'm not mistaken -- off this road, here. It would
15 be right about here. This one or this one
16 (indicating). Right around there -- just a moment.
17 Split, up this road, up this road. Yes. I believe so.
18 Q. In that general vicinity?
19 A. Excuse me?
20 Q. In that area?
21 A. Yes. It's -- can I stand? No. Okay. It's
22 one of these here. It's one of these here. You know,
23 this photograph, it's difficult. It's difficult.
24 Q. Could you tell us what you did and what you
25 saw when you found House number 5?
1 A. Well, I was looking in another area there,
2 and the word was basically shouted that they had found
3 House number 5, so I went in that direction. The
4 Colonel -- Colonel Stewart and the ambassadors had
5 already entered the house seconds before I did, and I
6 entered the house as well.
7 Q. What did you see when you entered the house?
8 A. It basically was as was described to me, that
9 I would find a room immediately to the right and
10 another room straight on through the door, through a
12 Q. Do you remember the condition of the house
13 when you saw it?
14 A. It had been gutted by fire.
15 Q. Did you see any human remains in the house?
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. What did you see?
18 A. We -- I saw what appeared to be two -- one
19 was definitely human remains, it was a backbone, a
20 charred backbone in the centre of the room, and what
21 could have been remains which -- someone would need to
22 basically confirm that because there wasn't much left
23 of a remain in the corner of this room.
24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, with the
25 permission of the Court, I would ask that previously
1 admitted Exhibit video P83 be played and shown to the
2 witness so that he can confirm that this was the house
3 he entered and perhaps make some commentary as he looks
4 at the video?
5 (Videotape played)
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think we can stop the video
7 here. That's fine.
8 Q. Is that the House number 5 that you were in
9 on that day?
10 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Now, that evening when you returned from
16 Ahmici, did you have any kind of conversations with
17 BRITBAT officers about what had been found in House
18 number 5?
19 A. Yes. It was -- basically I explained to the
20 Colonel as well as to the chaplain that I was looking
21 specifically for that house and I should be able to
22 determine the names of the -- the remains of the
23 bodies -- the remains that were found in the house.
24 Q. How did you expect to be able to identify
25 those remains?
1 A. Because I had been told by an individual the
2 day before -- actually, that's how I learned of House
3 number 5. I spoke to an individual who indicated
4 basically everything about House number 5 and that the
5 witness to what had happened there was a gentleman that
6 was in the Zenica hospital seriously injured.
7 Q. By the way, were you aware that some of the
8 British soldiers were quite upset at what they had
10 A. In my conversation with the chaplain, the
11 chaplain confirmed to me that it would be a very good
12 idea if I could, in fact, find the names of these
13 individuals and that -- that we -- that I would do my
14 best to locate the family so that they could provide a
15 proper burial.
16 Q. By the way, were you running out of time at
17 this point in your visit?
18 A. We were scheduled to leave the next day.
19 Q. What did you do the next day, the day that
20 you were scheduled to leave, in an attempt to identify
21 these bodies?
22 A. I took the patrol, or the shuttle to Zenica,
23 the regular -- from British battalion to Zenica,
24 returned to the cinema to try to find this individual
25 who had relayed this message, could not find her, and
1 then took a taxi to the Zenica hospital.
2 Q. And what did you do when you arrived at the
3 Zenica hospital?
4 A. Well, I entered the hospital and I tried to
5 find this individual. I didn't have his name. I knew
6 that I was looking for an individual who had been
7 seriously burned, and so I was asking people in the
8 hall where I could find this individual. See, I was
9 extremely pressed for time, and I'd already wasted a
10 lot of time by going to the cinema. So I was trying to
11 get to this individual as quickly as possible.
12 Q. Did you find him?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And could you describe where he was and what
15 he looked like?
16 A. I spoke to an orderly or a physician, I'm not
17 sure, a man in a white coat, and asked for this person,
18 and he directed me to a room where I found the
19 individual in question, together with a number of
20 family members, including children.
21 Q. And could you describe the condition this man
22 was in when you saw him?
23 A. He was lying in bed propped up with a
24 pillow. His -- both hands were bandaged. He was
25 injured on one side of his face quite seriously. For
1 the most part covered with a sheet.
2 Q. And did you speak with him at that time?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. What was your purpose in speaking with him?
5 What were you trying to convey?
6 A. The not really convey. I wanted to tell
7 him -- I did. I wanted to tell him that I found his
8 family, and I wanted to provide the information to
9 British battalion for their burial, and my primary goal
10 was to get their names and to be able to relay that
11 message -- that information back to British battalion.
12 Q. And did you tell this man that you had, in
13 fact, found his family and also the circumstances in
14 which you found them?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And what was his reaction to that?
17 A. It's difficult -- he was grateful. It was
18 very important, even though he was a witness, that
19 someone had found his family.
20 Q. Did he provide you the names of the
21 individuals who were in that house?
22 A. Yes, he did.
23 Q. While you were speaking with him were you
24 jotting down or scribbling down notes on a piece of
1 A. Yes. I had a piece of paper and a pen with
2 me because I wanted to take down their names. And I
3 also asked specific questions like, "Where would he
4 like his family to be buried, and would he like a
5 religious leader present, and if so, who would that
7 Q. Did he provide you with those names?
8 A. Yes, he did.
9 Q. And do you have those names with you?
10 A. No, I do not, but I did send a memo to
11 British battalion describing -- with their names, and
12 the name of the Imam that he had requested, and where
13 to bury them. I don't have it with me. I haven't seen
14 it in a long time.
15 Q. And did this gentleman -- by the way, did you
16 come to know his name?
17 A. This was [redacted].
18 Q. Did [redacted] then, after expressing his
19 gratitude, provide you with additional -- or began to
20 speak about what had happened?
21 A. Yes, he did. He basically repeated to me
22 what I had been told the day before.
23 Q. And what is your recollection of what he told
24 you that day in the hospital?
25 A. He told me that -- that firing had started in
1 the village at an early hour, 5.30, and that they
2 remained in their home. Through the window they could
3 see soldiers going up and down the streets, and could
4 hear firing.
5 He told me that the at one point soldiers
6 were heading in the direction of his home, and that he
7 then tried to hide in different places around the room,
8 and that these individuals entered the room,
9 immediately went to the second room, where he could
10 hear and to a certain extent also see that they had
11 shot his family, and that those individuals then poured
12 petrol around the room, including at a certain point he
13 was behind a couch, also on the couch he was hiding
14 behind or near, and set that ablaze.
15 Q. Did he indicate to you that he either knew or
16 did the not know who was responsible for that --
17 A. I asked him that question. I asked him --
18 actually, I'm not even sure if I asked him per se. He
19 had probably mentioned a name, and I said, "So you knew
20 these individuals." And then he indicated to me, "Of
21 course I knew them," something like that, "Of course I
22 know them." Which, of course, there was a reaction
23 from the others in the room as well to that.
24 Q. Did he indicate not by name but by some other
25 way who these people were?
1 A. He mentioned, yes, "My neighbours from the
2 first house."
3 Q. Did you press him to give you a name, or was
4 that --
5 A. No, no, no. As I say, I was not interested
6 in perpetrators. The only reason that I even asked
7 that question was -- I wanted to know whether or not to
8 pass on that information to any future investigation,
9 that he would be someone for them to talk to.
10 Q. And did you, in fact, pass on the information
11 about the names of his family to BRITBAT?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Now, you indicated that you were taking some
14 scribbled notes down on a piece of paper while he was
15 speaking to you. Do you know what happened to those
17 A. No, I do not.
18 Q. At some point later on did you attempt to
19 reconstruct your conversation with [redacted] and --
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Through a little memo of some sort?
22 A. Yes, I did. Part of this same one. This is
23 days after the report had been submitted and we were
24 hopeful that there would be a full-scale investigation,
25 and so I attempted to put down whatever we had to be
1 able to assist a future investigation.
2 Q. By the way, do you have that little memo you
3 did on [redacted] in front of you? You might want to
4 take a look.
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Are there names of his family listed there?
7 A. Yes, there are.
8 Q. Could you read them out, please?
9 A. Last names are Nazer Ahmic, Zehrudina Ahmic,
10 Elvis Ahmic and Sead Ahmic.
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: One moment, Your Honour.
12 I have no more questions at this time but
13 would proffer the Exhibit P -- I think it's 286, under
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel
17 MR. PAVKOVIC: I apologise, Your Honour, just
18 a moment.
19 Mr. President, perhaps the Defence counsel
20 could have a look at this exhibit. We do not know what
21 is this document that has been tendered into evidence
22 by the Prosecutor.
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We haven't tendered it into
25 JUDGE CASSESE: No.
1 MR. PAVKOVIC: There has been a
2 misunderstanding then.
3 I would like to advise you, Mr. President,
4 that this witness will be examined by the Defence
5 counsel Ranko Radovic, Jadranka Slokovic-Glumac, Luko
6 Susak, and I also will have two questions. Thank you.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Radovic.
2 MR. RADOVIC: All right.
3 Q. You said that when you had arrived in Ahmici
4 that you looked for sniper positions, if I understood
5 you correctly.
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Can you please tell me, am I correct that you
8 were able to locate sniper positions by looking for
9 lots of shell casings?
10 A. No. I wouldn't say that I was looking
11 specifically because of shell casings and so on, I was
12 told that there were a number of bodies collected from
13 a certain area, more than anywhere else, and that the
14 injuries that were reported to me by British battalion
15 were single shots to the head and neck. This led me to
16 believe, as well as many others, there was a group of
17 people that were discussing this, that this was just
18 not -- that this would be direct fire, and the
19 indication was that there could have been snipers
20 operating because of the accuracy of these shots.
21 Q. What is your military education?
22 A. I have none.
23 Q. What then leads you to believe that the only
24 accurate shots -- accurate shots could only be fired
25 from a sniper, or to be more precise, from a rifle
1 having the sights, the telescopic sights?
2 A. This came from what was -- my conversation
3 with British battalion officers who have military
4 experience, and in their opinion -- this was brought up
5 by us, but in their opinion it was very possible --
6 we're not saying that was confirmed, but it was very
7 possible that snipers were operating in that area.
8 Q. But we were not discussing sniper operations
9 at this time, but only that the bodies, the dead bodies
10 that you found had been hit from a sniper rifle or from
11 an ordinary rifle?
12 A. I'm sorry, I could not understand. If you
13 could repeat the question, please.
14 Q. You said that you came to that conclusion on
15 the basis of your conversations and on the basis of the
16 fact that these people had been shot with a single
17 bullet or two bullets, and that this was -- that it was
18 possible that snipers were operating in that battle
19 area. So now my question is: What facts were used by
20 your informants when they reached the conclusion that
21 the dead bodies were shot by a sniper rifle?
22 A. I don't think we ever drew a conclusion as
23 such. I mentioned that we looked in that area because
24 we had information to believe, but I don't think that
25 we ever concluded anything with regard to snipers.
1 Q. That's much better. Now, tell me, when
2 you're talking about issues having to do with military
3 knowledge, are you giving us your own opinion or the
4 opinions of your informants? And as you already told
5 us, your informants, sources of information, were
6 officers of the British battalion.
7 A. Not exclusively British battalion. There
8 were a number other people that we had raised questions
9 with, including European Community monitors and other
10 members of UNPROFOR in different locations.
11 Q. You obtained information about traces or
12 evidence found in Ahmici, and on the basis of that
13 information certain conclusions were made regarding the
14 kind of weapons from which these people were killed.
15 What kind of knowledge, what kind of information about
16 that could ECMM monitors have? What information did
17 you receive from the European Community monitors?
18 To be more specific, I thought that you had
19 received all your information from the British, because
20 they were officers, military officers, with a certain
21 kind of military experience, and now you're talking
22 about EC monitors. So now tell me, what relevant
23 military information did you receive from the ECMM
25 A. I don't believe that at any point I claimed
1 to describe the military operation at all. I don't --
2 I don't see where we described weaponry, other than
3 shell casings or -- I think the only other weapon I
4 mentioned was petrol. Our investigation was not of the
5 military operation per se. I honestly don't believe
6 that I relayed any military facts at all.
7 Q. I'm not asking you about military operations,
8 I'm asking you about traces, evidence, physical
9 evidence. Shell casings, that's evidence. You claim
10 that you received information about this evidence --
11 I'm talking about the shell casings and the wounds
12 sustained by the victims -- from the British battalion
14 I'm not talking about the military
15 operation. Military operation, that's planning and
16 execution. I'm asking you about the evidence that you
17 found as a monitor employed by Mr. Mazowiecki.
18 On the basis of the traces of evidence that
19 you found, what conclusions did you draw?
20 A. The conclusions that there was a -- the
21 conclusions that were drawn, as were put in the report,
22 are that there was a sustained military operation in
23 the village of Ahmici, and that as a result,
24 approximately 180 homes had been destroyed and that a
25 number of people had been killed.
1 Q. So you did not draw any conclusions regarding
2 the shell casings found?
3 A. At one point when we were visiting -- when we
4 were visiting the field, we asked. We looked for shell
5 casings just because we had an indication that snipers
6 could be operating in that area, and we asked a simple
7 soldier who was next to us what he thought this would
8 be. We were not looking to even collect evidence. For
9 example, that shell casing was never collected. No
10 other evidence was ever collected in terms of casings
11 or any other military hardware that was left in the
13 Q. You said that you looked for sniper shell
14 casings. Did I understand you correctly?
15 A. Yes, that is what I said.
16 Q. All right. I will go on to my next
18 When you looked for the sniper shell casings,
19 according to you, what's the difference between the
20 sniper shell casing and an ordinary rifle shell?
21 A. I'm not an expert in ballistics.
22 Q. But you were looking at this, as you just
23 told us. You were looking for sniper rifle shells. So
24 now please tell us what was it you were looking for on
25 the ground in Ahmici? How would you distinguish a
1 sniper rifle shell from an ordinary rifle shell?
2 You, you are not an expert, so I would just
3 like to know how did you spend your time when you were
4 looking for those shells?
5 A. The -- looking for sniper positions, looking
6 for sharpshooter positions. I'm not using the term
7 "sniper" in terms of a sniper will have a certain type
8 of weapon, will conduct warfare in a certain way, but
9 sharpshooters are someone that would use his position
10 and weapon to obtain a certain effect.
11 Q. I apologise. I fail to understand. This is
12 your assumption as to what a sniper is. It is very
13 clear what a sniper is. You told us that you had been
14 looking for evidence of sniper rifles being deployed
15 there on the basis of shell casings.
16 Can you now tell me -- this is the third time
17 I'm now asking you this question -- how could you
18 distinguish the sniper rifle shells from ordinary shell
20 A. I didn't distinguish them at all. In fact, I
21 never really received a hundred per cent confirmation
22 that snipers were operating. This was just something
23 that -- we were attempting to find firing positions.
24 Q. All right. This is really more or less what
25 you could find there. You also spoke about petrol
1 being used to burn houses. Was I correct in my
3 What physical fact that you found on the
4 ground lead you to believe that petrol was used to burn
5 those houses?
6 A. We never investigated the -- as I mentioned
7 earlier, we are not criminal investigators, and we did
8 not conduct a criminal investigation or a forensic
9 investigation of how the homes that had been destroyed,
10 the manner in which they were destroyed.
11 Speaking from just what we saw, it was
12 apparent that the homes had been gutted by flames for
13 the most part from the inside, and the reason I believe
14 that is that many of the external walls were standing,
15 while as the multiple storeys and the roof, which in my
16 understanding the beams are of wood and other flammable
17 materials, would have burned and fallen into itself.
18 Q. Can you please tell us, are you aware of
19 incendiary bullets?
20 A. Yes, I am.
21 Q. Is it possible to set on fire from the inside
22 if you fire an incendiary bullet into the house and it
23 hits a wooden object and then the house burns from the
25 A. I wouldn't know.
1 Q. Is it possible to set a house on fire very
2 quickly if you set a curtain on fire with a match, and
3 you don't even have to use petrol in that case?
4 A. I would imagine so.
5 Q. In such a case, is it necessary to use
6 petrol? In other words, is it then -- is it a credible
7 conclusion that petrol was used?
8 A. I didn't --
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, sorry to
10 interrupt you. The witness is not an expert witness.
11 He's not an expert in incendiary weapons, and petrol
12 and so on. I don't see any point in asking these
13 questions. If you're asking for hypothetical answers,
14 all right, but as I say, I don't see any relevance.
15 He's a factual witness. He's a witness of fact. He
16 has no expertise in this area.
17 MR. RADOVIC: I know, but he draws some
18 conclusions about things he does not have an expertise
19 in, about snipers, about manners in which houses were
20 set on fire. I just want to point out the fact that in
21 his notes he's talking about things he doesn't know a
22 lot about. But at any rate I just have one more
23 question and then I'll be drawing to a close.
24 A. Your Honour, if I may.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, yes.
1 A. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I was
2 told by numerous witness that petrol was used.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: So you're reporting a fact?
4 A. I'm reporting a fact, relaying --
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Not even fact. The opinion
6 of other persons. So he's simply reporting the
8 MR. RADOVIC: All right. So this is not his
9 own conclusion on the basis of what he found on the
10 ground, but he's just reporting other people's
11 opinions. I can agree to that.
12 Q. And now, again, I have to ask you this
13 question: Can you give me the names of the people who
14 told you that? Do you have those names noted down --
15 A. No, I--
16 Q. -- or is it possible for you to remember all
17 those names? So you're unable to give us the names of
18 the people who told you that?
19 A. No, I was waiting for the translation to
21 Yes. I can distinctly remember Sakib Ahmic
22 telling me that petrol was used inside of his home.
23 Specifically he told me that. And numerous other
24 people from -- from my encounters in the Zenica
1 Q. All right. Of these other people, do you
2 know any names? We know about Sakib Ahmic. We're not
3 challenging the fact that he was telling you about
5 A. I believe that (redacted) also told me that
6 petrol was used. Those are the two names that I can
7 confirm told me that petrol was used, by name.
8 Q. So just these two people and nobody else?
9 A. As far as I can recall, yes.
10 Q. When you came to Vitez -- or, rather, in
11 Ahmici, you went there with the assistance of the
12 British battalion. Who gave you the first general
13 information about Ahmici before you even went there on
14 the ground?
15 A. I believe it was the officer in charge of
16 briefing at British battalion.
17 Q. Do you remember his name?
18 A. No, I do not, but he would be -- I think that
19 that was his full-time function, if I'm not mistaken,
20 to brief officers on the current situation.
21 MR. RADOVIC: I have no more questions.
22 Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.
24 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac? I'm sorry, it's time to take
25 a break.
1 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes. After the break,
2 thank you.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I think we'll take a
4 break now. Sorry, I had not realised.
5 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: If I may, I shall have
9 some introductory questions, and I should like, if I
10 may, to keep it in closed session for a few
11 introductory questions. It is only for a few minutes.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We are in closed
14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.
15 (closed session)
13 Page 4505 redacted in closed session
13 Page 4506 redacted in closed session
13 Page 4507 redacted in closed session
23 (Open Session)
24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
25 Q. Do you remember if it was the same person
1 that you gave the dictaphone to record her statement on
2 a tape? Was that one of those persons? You said that
3 there were two persons who recorded their statements on
5 A. It is very possible, but I'm not 100
6 per cent. It is possible. The person that I can see
7 in my head had the basic same build and colour of hair,
8 but I'm not 100 per cent because this particular
9 individual that I handed the tape to, I really had no
10 special conversations with her. She just wanted to
11 speak into the tape recorder.
12 Q. What person are we referring to? The one who
13 made a longer statement or the one that made a shorter
14 statement? Are we referring to the latter?
15 A. I'm referring to the person who made the
16 short statement, not the administrator from the clinic
17 but the other person. I believe her last name is [redacted]
18 and first name is [redacted]
19 Q. Tell us, how was the exact location of the
20 house described to you?
21 A. Well, it was described as a smaller house --
22 if I recall correctly -- a smaller house in a group of
23 other homes in between the two roads. That was the
24 basic description. And then a house number was given,
25 but I was also told that it's very difficult to find it
1 by just looking for the house number, but to look
2 between the two -- between two roads.
3 Q. Was the number 5 on the house still there or
4 was the house completely burned down; do you remember?
5 A. I never saw the number on the house. I was
6 told that House number 5 had been found. I actually
7 never saw the number, no.
8 Q. Right. Tell us then, you knew what your duty
9 was: You were supposed to answer questions relating to
10 human rights in the Lasva Valley at the time. Is that
12 A. We were actually not instructed to conduct
13 any kind of investigation, but in the normal course of
14 our duties as human rights officers, this was something
15 that fell within our mandate. Once we had established
16 some basic facts, we brought it to the attention of
17 certain individuals in Geneva who were there to support
18 Mr. Mazowiecki, that we believed that we should look
19 into this matter and that an investigation or the
20 Special Rapporteur should take interest in this
21 particular area.
22 Q. Right. But then you knew that with regard to
23 those events which you monitored, the state of human
24 rights, violations of human rights, you knew that you
25 would be writing some reports, didn't you?
1 A. Absolutely. Everything that we did in terms
2 of fact-finding dealt with the human rights situation,
3 in very broad terms, throughout the former Yugoslavia.
4 The mandate of Mr. Mazowiecki was such to report and
5 provide, if you will, a reference document about the
6 state of human rights throughout the former Yugoslavia.
7 Q. And then, during those seven days, you were
8 only involved in that particular narrow area. During
9 those seven days you were not involved, you were not
10 monitoring in any way, human rights in other parts of
12 A. This was a special case. This was a little
13 bit different than a lot of things that we had done
14 previously and after that.
15 There was a call for someone to do something
16 in that area, and we didn't know if we were the ones
17 that could provide that. We certainly weren't
18 qualified to do it. But Mr. Mazowiecki wanted to bring
19 the world's attention, and that was the mechanism in
20 the Centre for Human Rights, to report to the
21 Secretary-General of the United Nations who would then
22 relay that information on to the General Assembly or to
23 the Security Council, that is indeed the mechanism. So
24 our job was to provide information and to hope that
25 governments and other institutions would take action.
1 Q. All right. So it was to establish certain
2 facts which you saw there.
3 Now, tell me, you took some notes while
4 talking to witnesses in the cinema; is that so?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. And you equally took notes during interviews
7 with [redacted] at a hospital?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And you equally took notes when you talked to
10 those persons in the cinema for the first time, the
11 first time when there were those people from Ahmici,
12 when you singled out people from Ahmici?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And you also compiled some notes, that is,
15 you took off the videotapes the statements of those two
16 eyewitnesses; you also took notes of that, of those two
17 women who taped their comments, their interviews?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. In other words, on each of these occasions,
20 you took notes and you established facts in this way;
21 is that so?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Who did you turn over those notes to? I
24 mean, in view of their importance, you said it was very
25 important to establish what really had happened there,
1 and you thought that it could serve as grounds for
2 future investigation, you already said it, and you had
3 found some facts and collected them. I should like to
4 know, who did you give them to?
5 A. I didn't give them to anyone because we had
6 no mechanism. That was one of the frustrating things
7 about the Centre for Human Rights and the mandates of
8 the United Nations at that time. We had no procedure
9 in which to seal, collect, hold, file; there was no
10 body that would deal with that type of information
11 whatsoever. The information and the notes were
12 contained here in what was referred to as an interim
14 This report or Mazowiecki's mandate, for the
15 most part, is done with on-site visits, and the
16 individual, or Mr. Mazowiecki in this case, reports to
17 the Economic and Social Council as well as to the
18 Secretary-General. These are the notes.
19 Unfortunately, we had no procedure. It was
20 extremely frustrating. I agree. This is one of the
21 things that was very difficult for all of us in the
22 Centre as well as other organisations.
23 Q. On the basis of this report, and presumably
24 some other reports and television recordings, in '95
25 the indictment was filed for the same event. Did
1 anyone from the Prosecutor's Office talk to you, turn
2 to you and ask about such notes, about the existence of
3 such notes, because you had been there, you had been
4 there immediately after the events?
5 A. Yes, I was asked about the notes and I was
6 asked about the tape as well.
7 Q. Did you give any of this material to the
8 Prosecutor's Office?
9 A. Not personally. I did direct, when asked, I
10 did direct them to the Centre for Human Rights' office
11 and told them that there is a possibility that
12 something may remain there.
13 Q. Does this mean that the Office for Human
14 Rights had some notes? Had you turned over a part of
15 your notes or perhaps a tape? I mean the Centre for
16 Human Rights.
17 A. No, I didn't turn anything over. As I said,
18 there was no procedure in which to turn anything over,
19 no body or no procedure. However, I had worked in the
20 office for quite some time, and we had accumulated
21 files that were used for field purposes, and I had
22 hoped that there was some of that information there. I
23 don't know if they actually -- well, I don't know if
24 they went to the field office, but I can tell you that
25 I was provided today with my typewritten notes that I
1 haven't seen and I do not personally have a copy. I
2 was provided with a copy today and I haven't seen that
3 for quite some time, although I do now have a copy of
5 Q. And so it is quite possible that some of
6 these notes stayed behind, I mean, at the Centre for
7 Human Rights; is that what you're trying to say?
8 A. No, actually, unfortunately, I know that
9 there have been several attempts -- not necessarily
10 even directed at this case but at other cases -- to
11 find notes in the Centre for Human Rights, and as far
12 as I know, very little, if anything, was found. I
13 really don't know the answer to that question.
14 Q. All right. As regards this event, the event
15 related to Sakib Ahmic, the whole event is described
16 with considerable precision, isn't that so?
17 A. Yes, I recall quite a bit about my
18 conversation with Mr. Ahmic.
19 Q. Do you recall if Sakib Ahmic said that he had
20 seen how his grandchildren were killed; do you remember
21 that? So that he would really affirm with certainty
22 that he knew that his children had been killed before
23 the house was put on fire; do you remember that?
24 A. The latter part of your question, the way you
25 formulated it, did he see, the way it was relayed to
1 me, I had the impression that he was able to witness
2 what had happened in the house. Did he actually say,
3 "I saw them being killed"? I'm not sure about that.
4 Q. That's not what I meant. I was referring to
5 his knowledge that his children had been killed. Was
6 this something that you learned?
7 A. In other words -- no, absolutely. When I
8 walked in the room to get information from him, he --
9 it's interesting, because when I arrived, I think that
10 others in the room were some of the individuals that I
11 had talked to in the cinema. And when I came to the
12 room, he knew who I was. I told him that I had found
13 his family, and he knew that, and I asked him at that
14 point what would he want done with the bodies and where
15 would he like for me to provide, if possible, a
16 burial. He was very clear on that.
17 Q. Please tell me, who were these persons in the
18 hospital at the time when you were there? You said the
19 persons that you talked to in the cinema.
20 A. There were -- there were several children --
21 Q. Was there also the girl that you mentioned,
22 the one that said that she was the mechanic's
24 A. No. No, I don't believe she was there. I
25 would remember her, and I don't recall her being
2 Q. That other person who gave you the report?
3 A. It's possible. It's very possible. I have
4 to tell you, when I came into that room I was extremely
5 nervous. I was under time constraints, and I had never
6 told anyone, in my life, that I had found his family,
7 and this was very difficult for me to do. I came into
8 a room where there was a man seriously injured who I
9 had to relay this to, and it was very painful for me,
10 and I can imagine even more so for this individual. I
11 tried to do as little talking as possible and let this
12 individual speak to me.
13 Q. So you think that the woman who had given you
14 the information about the house was there. That's
15 [redacted]. That's what you said her name was. Was
16 that other person who had given you the initial report,
17 or who had recorded the statement, was she there?
18 A. I said it was possible that Sedeta was
19 there. It's possible. The reason I say that is
20 because I was immediately welcomed there. He knew
21 exactly who I was, and he also knew exactly what I came
22 to tell him. I mean, I felt that. I felt that. It
23 was just --
24 Q. All right. Can you tell me, do you remember
25 whether that other person was there?
1 A. I don't think so. She had a very strong
2 presence. I -- if I said it was possible for Sedeta to
3 be there, I think that it's not probable that the first
4 person was there. I don't believe that she was there.
5 Q. I have to ask you one question. You said
6 that in the three visits to Zenica, to the cinema, to
7 the hospital, you talked exclusively with the family of
8 [redacted] --
9 A. Excuse me --
10 Q. -- his daughter, his daughter-in-law and his
11 granddaughter. These are the only persons that you
12 remembered from those three visits. Can you recall any
13 other person?
14 A. Oh, I talked to -- I talked to 30, 40
15 people. And many of the people that I spoke with --
16 these are just the names of people that actually had
17 information that was very specific, that I was looking
18 for. Many of the individuals that I talked to had fled
19 early that day, or had escaped by different means and
20 so on and had not actually witnessed crimes. I was
21 looking for witnesses, not just people that were from
22 that village.
23 Q. You were looking for witnesses, but it's
24 possible that there were people there who had somebody
25 killed. You gave us information only concerning these
1 three people. Can you tell us about any other person
2 of whom you have some more detailed information
3 regarding the event in Ahmici and that you also had
4 spoken to?
5 A. I spoke to -- let's see. There was a lady
6 that was -- I don't know if she introduced herself, but
7 I remember her as the mechanic's wife, and the reason I
8 remember it as such is when I was asked about what I'd
9 seen in the village, she said, "Did you see a house
10 that had a mechanic's shop?" and so on. And --
11 Q. Where would that house be? Did she tell you
13 A. I didn't -- I believe that that house was a
14 bit lower in the village, and that's why we didn't
15 visit. If I'm not mistaken. It would be in this area
16 here (indicating), if I'm not mistaken. If I recall,
17 it would be down here somewhere. It was --
18 Q. You were referring to a car mechanic; right?
19 A. That is correct. There were a number of
20 other individuals. There was a group of individuals
21 that were from a different part of Ahmici, if I can
22 call it the upper part of Ahmici. There were -- there
23 was a group of two or three that had been together with
24 the clinic administrator, (redacted) who were also
5 A. Excuse me. I dont even know that now.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. (redacted)
10 A. I didn't know that until today -- until now.
11 I had no idea.
12 Q. When you entered the house, who else entered
13 the house with you? You were in the house number 5 on
14 that day when you found her -- found it?
15 A. That is correct. I entered possibly third or
16 fourth into house number 5.
17 Q. Tell me, how many bodies were found on that
19 A. I personally saw what I thought were three
20 bodies, and one was very distinct and was also shown on
21 the video. However, in the left-hand corner of the
22 room there were two remains that were not really
23 associated -- they could have been together, they could
24 have been separate, but I believe that there were three
25 remains visible in that area.
1 Q. Was it possible to see clearly that these
2 were bodies when we're talking about the two remains,
3 or was it really hard to say that?
4 A. One was very clear. The other two remains --
5 or the other two partial -- because I wasn't really
6 clear if that was one that had been split into two
7 pieces, if you will, or was it one body. However, it
8 was -- I mean, there were things that immediately told
9 you that yes, these are remains, but the other two not
10 very clearly, no.
11 Q. Did somebody who was with you that day there
12 have any kind of forensic experience that would enable
13 that person to tell you exactly what it was, since we
14 could see on the photographs that it wasn't very
16 A. No, but I believe that was done once the
17 bodies had been collected.
18 Q. Were the bodies taken to be autopsied? Do
19 you know anything about that, or to be examined in any
21 A. No, I have no information of what happened
22 after the bodies were collected.
23 Q. In the conversation with [redacted], you
24 said that he had given you names of the perpetrators;
25 is that correct?
1 A. No, I didn't say that he gave me names. He
2 may have, because something led me to ask him, "So you
3 knew these individuals," because I remember asking that
4 question. And his response at that time was, "Of
5 course I know those individuals." But I didn't write
6 down a name or ask him any further questions. That was
7 probably --
8 Q. But did he tell you the names? Did he give
9 you the names, even if you didn't note them down?
10 A. He may have. Not names, not names. I
11 believe that if he did say something it was a name.
12 Q. What?
13 A. I can't recall which name.
14 Q. You further stated that these had been
15 neighbours, next-door neighbours. That's what you
17 A. No, that's how he relayed the information to
18 me. He said -- he --
19 Q. That was my question.
20 A. Yes. Yes. He referred to it as, "My
22 Q. Did he say -- did he specify neighbours from
23 which house?
24 A. He said -- he said, "Of course I know. Of
25 course I know these people. It's my neighbours in the
1 first house."
2 Q. Yes, but all the Croats live in houses next
3 door to his house. There are three or four houses
4 surrounding his house, so this is not a distinctive
5 feature. Did he give you any specific information?
6 That's the reason why I'm asking you this.
7 A. No. I wasn't looking for any house or
8 anything. I was told that it was his neighbours from
9 the first house, that's all.
10 Q. Nothing more specific?
11 A. No.
12 Q. How many people were involved? Did he give
13 you that information?
14 A. The -- I can't be precise on that, but it was
15 definitely -- it was in plural. He was speaking about
16 "soldiers", he was speaking about up and down the
17 road, and then he was speaking about when "They came
18 into my house," which means there's definitely more
19 than one, but I don't recall asking or being told how
20 many individuals.
21 Q. Did he talk about soldiers and neighbours or
22 just about soldiers?
23 A. He -- he talked about the attack on this
24 general area right close to his home in a way that he
25 was hoping that they wouldn't come towards his house,
1 and then -- that they then came to his house, and at
2 that time, that's when he mentioned a name of some
3 kind. And I can't remember. Sort of like, "That's
4 when so and so came into my house." And I wasn't very
5 clear, I couldn't hear the name, but I said, "So you
6 knew these people." And then he said, "Of course,
7 these are my neighbours from the first house."
8 Q. That means that he observed the movement of
9 those soldiers through his window.
10 A. He observed their movement through a window,
11 or through door or how he observed, but, yes, he told
12 me he observed movement for some time through the
13 window or through the door. He observed movement
14 outside of his house.
15 Q. You said that some other family members were
16 there, and probably that one person from the cinema and
17 some children. Was there -- were there any other
18 adults in the hospital with him when you were there?
19 A. You mean in the room?
20 Q. I mean in the hospital room.
21 A. In the hospital room. Yes, yes. There
22 were -- there was at least three if not four adults in
23 the room.
24 Q. You said that it seemed to you that all these
25 people were relatives of some kind.
1 A. It was -- it was the way that they were all
2 seated in the room. There was -- obviously I had
3 interrupted a visit of some kind.
4 Q. Tell me, as regards your arrival in Ahmic,
5 you said that on the first visit you just passed
6 through and didn't see much, and on the second time you
7 had a specific purpose in mind, to learn facts about
8 it. You went to Upper Ahmici by car; is that correct?
9 A. We went to an upper area of Ahmici, yes. Not
10 in a car but in a tank.
11 Q. In a tank. Did you leave the tank in Upper
13 A. We are talking about the second trip to
15 Q. Second.
16 A. No, we did not.
17 Q. In the only part that you actually passed
18 through is the area near the road near the mosque, you
19 said that you found some shell casings near two houses
20 near the mosque, if I understood you correctly.
21 A. We covered -- we covered, on the second
22 trip -- if you'd like, I could point out --
23 Q. Yes, go ahead.
24 A. Okay. We started in this general area here
25 (indicating). We walked down the road a considerable
1 ways. I don't know exactly how far, but I would
2 imagine it was somewhere around here (indicating). We
3 then entered the vehicles again, continued slightly
4 into this direction, returned, continued up the hill.
5 We went up to an area we could turn around, and I
6 imagine -- okay. We passed this, it became very
7 narrow. There was an area -- it could be this one, it
8 could be this one here, it could be even closer, it
9 could be even this, but there was an area where the
10 vehicles could turn around, and that's about as far as
11 we went. I can't really be sure looking at this, but I
12 would say that we drove -- I can -- without looking at
13 this it's a lot easier. We probably drove about 150
14 maybe 200 metres past the second mosque when we turned
16 Q. Right, but you said that you did not get off
17 in this area but you passed by the mosque, the lower
18 mosque on the lower part of the road, and that you
19 visited two houses there?
20 A. I would say it was more than two in the lower
21 part. We certainly went in -- not necessarily into the
22 homes themselves. I don't think we ever went into a
23 house except for just peering inside, or looking
24 through windows and things like that, but we visited a
25 number -- a number of homes.
1 Q. You were talking about the houses surrounding
2 the lower mosque; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. For the most part, yes.
4 Q. You said that you noticed a lot of damage on
5 those houses, that they had been burnt. You saw bullet
6 marks on some of them, a lot of shell casings around
7 the houses. Does this situation indicate that some
8 kind of combat was taking place there -- had been
9 taking place there?
10 A. Weapons had been fired. I don't know whose
11 weapons, but weapons were fired obviously.
12 Q. The information provided to you were mostly
13 provided to you by BRITBAT officers; is that correct?
14 A. No, that's not correct.
15 Q. Who else?
16 A. I spoke to, as I said, a number of
17 individuals in Zenica, in the cinema, as well as the
18 gentleman in the hospital and members of ECMM.
19 Q. But you did say that as regards the number of
20 houses that have been destroyed, did you have any
21 information as to how many members of the Croatian
22 armed forces took part in the attack?
23 A. No. We -- we asked that question, and I
24 don't think that anyone could determine that at the
1 Q. Did you have any information as to the number
2 of victims, according to the estimates at the time, or
3 the findings at the time?
4 A. We were told that they -- there was
5 confirmation of 103 killed, and that the Red Cross, or
6 UNHCR or some other body was in the process of putting
7 together a list of names. We sought to get our hands
8 on that list, and I believe we did then or maybe days
9 after when we had arrived back in Zagreb, but we did
10 receive a hand-written list of names. There were 103
11 names on that list.
12 Q. The people that you talked to in the cinema,
13 were these exclusively women and children or were there
14 men among them?
15 A. There were also men.
16 Q. Were there men of military age?
17 A. Military age. There were two men that I
18 would say -- I guess military age being from about 18
19 until 50, I guess, 60, 70, I don't know, but there were
20 two men in their 30's. However, I don't believe that
21 they came from Ahmici.
22 One the men I'm talking about is the
23 individual that produced the key to the room, and the
24 other individual that I talked to was somehow related
25 to someone there.
1 Q. The people that you talked to in the cinema,
2 did they mention that the BH army was in Ahmici or that
3 there had been an armed response on that day, on the
5 A. We asked that question and we were told that
6 there was very little resistance.
7 Q. Were you told how long the conflict in Ahmici
8 lasted? Did they tell you this?
9 A. I don't think specifically, but that
10 information was available through different stories. I
11 mean, we had a basic idea of the time -- the times that
12 things occurred. Yes. I mean, not specifically, you
13 know, "It started here and ended here," but we had
14 gained that information, I believe.
15 Q. How long did it last approximately, according
16 to the information at your disposal?
17 A. If I recall correctly, there was mortar fire
18 or heavy fire that began at approximately 5.30 in the
19 morning, and that it continued with -- other types of
20 fire continued with intensity until about 9.00. I'm
21 just recalling what was told to me and how it was
23 There seemed to be a break in the firing
24 around 9.00, but resumed and continued until about
25 midday and about midday it ceased. The reason I can
1 say around midday, is this is when we were told that
2 additional patrols of UNPROFOR had come to the
4 Q. After UNPROFOR left, was there shooting in
5 the village, according to your information?
6 A. I don't believe I was told, no. I don't
8 Q. Please tell me, were you told which route the
9 people used to flee the village? Did they tell you
10 which way they fled?
11 A. There was a couple of -- I was told of a
12 couple of ways that people escaped. Many -- many
13 stayed in their current hiding places -- or their
14 hiding places until dark.
15 In the case (redacted) actually
16 saved by someone who escorted her to a house.
17 Mr. Ahmic, or [redacted], I believe that he
18 crossed over one of the hills. I really didn't get
19 into those details.
20 There was a number of people that went to the
21 northern part of the village, I believe. There was
22 another group that fled in different directions. There
23 was no one route that was mentioned to me. There were
24 all different stories of how people got out of those
25 situations, and to be quite frank, I didn't really
2 Q. Did you go to any other village, apart from
3 Ahmici, since this report concerns the wider area, not
4 only Ahmici but some other villages. Did you go to
5 those villages? I'm referring to the village of
7 A. Yes, we did.
8 Q. Do you remember what had happened there?
9 What did you find there?
10 A. If that's relevant for this case, yes.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
12 A. Yes, absolutely. We received a report, while
13 we were there, from the UNHCR that there was a
14 disturbed population, extremely disturbed population in
15 a village of Miletici, up the hill, and that something
16 had happened there and if we could take a look at it as
17 well, which we agreed. Also, the UNHCR insisted that a
18 British battalion send a patrol there immediately,
19 because there was reports that an atrocity had taken
20 place by an individual, if I recall correctly, who had
21 come down from that village. It was very remote, that
23 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sorry to have to say that
24 we have got to stop now. So we will continue tomorrow
25 at 9.30. Tomorrow we will go on until 1.00, and then
1 break for lunch from 1.00 to 2.30 and finish at 5.00.
2 So we adjourn now until tomorrow.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
4 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
5 the 13th day of October, 1998, at
6 9.30 a.m.