1 Wednesday, 14th October, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
7 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
8 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, Vladimir Santic, also known as
9 "Vlado."
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.
11 (The witness entered court)
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
13 WITNESS: STEPHEN HUGHES (Resumed)
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
15 Q. Good morning, everybody. Good morning, sir.
16 I have only a few questions for you with regard to
17 yesterday's testimony.
18 You said that yesterday in Vitez, when you
19 first entered it at the beginning of the conflict, you
20 noticed a wounded civilian; do you remember saying
21 that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Sir, on what day did you decide that he was a
24 civilian, and could you please define "civilians" for
25 us?
1 A. The reason I defined that firstly it was a
2 civilian was because, (1) it was a lady, an old lady,
3 possibly in her late 50s, early 60s, and due to the
4 fact that she was of that age in civilian clothes, we
5 deduced that, yes, she was a civilian.
6 Q. Right. As it was a woman, you did not say
7 that yesterday, of an advanced age. Then evidently she
8 would fall under this category of civilian.
9 But whom did you consider civilian? What
10 kind of people did you consider civilians?
11 A. We considered anybody that was not dressed in
12 any military uniform to be categorised as civilian.
13 Q. At the time when it happened, you had already
14 had five months in the territory of Bosnia behind you
15 and your term of office was coming to an end.
16 Now, during those five months, didn't you
17 notice that the category -- that the notions of the
18 civilian and military persons in Bosnia did not tally
19 with your definition of persons who wear or do not wear
20 uniforms?
21 Let me clarify it. Didn't you notice that
22 persons wearing civilian clothes without any particular
23 insignia also carried weapons and fought?
24 A. Yes. That is true. But again, due to the
25 experience of the whole six months of our time there,
1 it's difficult to explain, but you can tell the
2 difference between what we would class as a civilian
3 and somebody who was maybe not wearing uniform but
4 carrying arms.
5 Q. So how do you distinguish between a combatant
6 with a rifle in civilian clothes and a civilian in the
7 conventional sense of the word, that is a person who
8 does not carry arms, does not wear a uniform, and is
9 not fighting?
10 A. A combatant of what we had seen would be
11 normally either at checkpoints, headquarters, defensive
12 positions. There were obviously a number of civilians
13 that would carry weapons maybe for their own
14 protection, as we had seen at that time in Vitez. But
15 I wouldn't class these, through my experience out there
16 and through my knowledge, that these were not
17 civilians. What we had seen were civilians.
18 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't quite get you. A
19 civilian with arms is not a civilian; is that what you
20 are saying?
21 A. No. What I'm trying to say is difficult to
22 explain, but the position was that, as in any conflict
23 of that sort, you will get civilians who will carry a
24 weapon of some sort for their own protection. So
25 again, you could define -- you could define between a
1 civilian and military.
2 Q. How do you know that an individual who is on
3 his own and is carrying weapons is carrying these
4 weapons for his own protection rather than to attack
5 anyone? What are those particular features, those
6 characteristics of a particular individual that you can
7 deduce that he is a civilian rather than an active
8 combatant?
9 A. Well, you deduce from the situation that you
10 find yourself in. As I said before, nine times out of
11 ten, or the majority of time, that any civilians that
12 were carrying weapons were in a position of defending
13 themselves. If we went through checkpoints, we went to
14 headquarters or defensive positions, then, yes, there
15 would be a number of people there dressed in civilians,
16 carrying weapons. But you could define from the group
17 that they were in that obviously they were working on
18 the military side, but a civilian, again depending upon
19 his situation, could carry a weapon for his own
20 protection. To me, it's quite easy to define because
21 obviously I was there and I saw it. It's difficult to
22 try and explain, but when you're there in that
23 situation, it's quite possible to define between a
24 civilian and a man in the military.
25 Q. Right. I understand that now. But what I do
1 not understand is how can you deduce that somebody's
2 carrying weapons to protect himself and another one
3 carrying weapons for the purpose of some attack; on the
4 basis of what can you make such conclusions or
5 deductions?
6 A. Well, I make the deductions from the
7 situations that you find yourself in, or I found myself
8 in, and as many of the people did when we were out
9 there, was that, for example, during the attack on
10 Stari Vitez, you know, there were a number of
11 civilians, as I would class them, with old-style
12 weapons that were trying to protect their houses.
13 However, as I said before, that you then go into
14 another situation where you'd be in the vicinity, as I
15 said, headquarters, defensive positions, and
16 checkpoints, and because we classed them as military
17 positions, then anyone on those checkpoints, at those
18 headquarters, or in those defensive positions that were
19 attired in civilians clothes but carrying weapons, then
20 we would not class them as civilians.
21 Q. Tell us how -- on the basis of what did you
22 class some positions as defensive positions and others
23 as the launching ground for an attack or, to put it in
24 military terms, the initial position, the offensive
25 position? What is the difference between a defensive
1 position and the position from which one launches an
2 offensive, or does a trench -- and I believe you
3 consider that a defensive position -- can it also be a
4 position from which soldiers will come out to go into
5 an attack?
6 A. A defensive position is, again, you can use a
7 trench network -- a defensive position does not
8 necessarily have to be trenches. It can be a position
9 where individuals can be -- either can be concealed
10 from view and protection from small arms, and the
11 majority of defensive positions I saw were
12 well-constructed trenches with bunkers, et cetera. A
13 defensive position can also be used to plan and
14 initiate attacks from, so it has basically a dual role.
15 Q. I agree with you. Right. We have solved
16 this question. Now let's proceed to the next one.
17 You said that when you entered Stari Vitez
18 that you saw soldiers moving in an aggressive way
19 towards Stari Vitez. Will you please clarify for me,
20 what is this aggressive movement? What does it look
21 like?
22 A. The movement they were using is what we would
23 class in military terms as fire and manoeuvre. To try
24 and explain, it doesn't necessarily mean at that stage
25 you're under fire, but it does mean that you are
1 advancing on a position, or towards a position, that
2 you wish to occupy. The manoeuvre is that normally you
3 would work in pairs; one man would be in cover, i.e. in
4 a position where he's protected from small arms fire
5 but at the same time in a position to observe to his
6 front, while the other member of his team moves
7 forward. So basically the static man or, as we would
8 say, one foot on the ground, gives the man that is
9 moving cover. Once the man who's moved forward stops
10 in a position of cover, then the man behind will then
11 move forward. So basically they sort of leap frog each
12 other to advance forward onto, as I say, an objective
13 they wish to take.
14 Q. Right. So is that what we in Europe would
15 call a firing squad or that they were deployed in a
16 firing position, or is it that in English you don't
17 have that and you call it differently? Or perhaps in
18 the military theatre that I am familiar with, it is
19 called moving of men to take firing positions or
20 something, but perhaps you are not familiar with that
21 terminology and I don't insist on that.
22 A. It is a military manoeuvre. You would find
23 any army throughout the world will use that type of
24 manoeuvre to move forward when putting in an attack or
25 when they wish to move forward to gain advantage of
1 ground, move into a position that they wish to take.
2 It is a standard procedure. If everyone stood up and
3 moved at the same time, then it's not tactically
4 sound. Those days ended in 1918.
5 Q. Right. I understand how they move, but it
6 doesn't matter whether it is your terminology or my
7 terminology because they are moving in the same way
8 except we call them differently.
9 But let's proceed to the next question.
10 Yesterday you said that when you entered Stari Vitez
11 that you did not see that people in Stari Vitez
12 resisted the attack -- resisted the attackers who were
13 trying to take Stari Vitez, and these attackers were
14 HVO soldiers.
15 Now, my question is: How is it possible that
16 the HVO did not take Stari Vitez in spite of trying and
17 yet Stari Vitez offered no resistance?
18 A. The reason behind that is that initially the
19 petrol tank had been exploded in the centre of Stari
20 Vitez, which drew us into the situation. On arrival in
21 Vitez, as mentioned yesterday, due to the fact that my
22 vehicle and my second vehicle were the first into the
23 area, we quickly moved around the roads to try and gain
24 information as to what the situation was, and again, at
25 that stage, there were a further four or five vehicles
1 in the area. We quickly gained an assessment of the
2 situation. I was then placed in a static location near
3 the mosque in Stari Vitez whilst other call signs were
4 tasked by our superior commander to carry out other
5 tasks.
6 Due to the fact that I was static, obviously
7 there is a lot of radio traffic with call signs
8 communicating to each other, and it was during these
9 communications that I could establish that other
10 vehicles within our company were placing themselves
11 between the aggressors and the area of Stari Vitez to
12 try and obviously stop the attack.
13 What we can gather from the situation then is
14 that the attack did stop due to the fact that we were
15 then in the area trying to dominate the area, to, as I
16 say, ward off the attack.
17 Again, from radio traffic, I could establish
18 that there were a number of old people -- one situation
19 was an old man with a shotgun stood at his door and
20 fired off a couple of rounds to try and stop the
21 aggressors taking his house. Eventually, the situation
22 did come under some form of control, and it was at that
23 stage that the command decision was made to evacuate
24 Stari Vitez, and move the people from there to Travnik
25 for their own safety.
1 Q. Excuse me. I am completely at sea. Are you
2 saying that you evacuated the whole of Stari Vitez?
3 A. We evacuated the -- from the centre, mainly
4 the centre of Stari Vitez, apart from those people that
5 didn't wish to leave. At that stage, we called in
6 extra vehicles from our headquarters to cope with the
7 numbers of civilians that we took to Travnik.
8 Q. Do you know that throughout the war, Stari
9 Vitez never fell?
10 A. Yes, that is correct, because I believe at
11 that time --
12 Q. And -- yes, yes. Go on. Go on, please.
13 A. I believe at that time, due to our
14 intervention, that is the reason that it did not fall.
15 Q. Do you know if there were any other attacks
16 on Stari Vitez, except from this period as of the 16th
17 of April onward?
18 A. Not that I'm aware of. Once that situation
19 was finished, I would say I was tasked out of the Vitez
20 area and concentrated in the surrounding villages of
21 Vitez. Other call signs within the company may have
22 been tasked in there, but we tended to try keep a
23 high-profile presence to hopefully deter any further
24 attacks within the area.
25 Q. Do you know that the HVO attacked, and during
1 this attack, it had 23 casualties, so they discontinued
2 the attack because of serious losses; do you know
3 that? And it was not British units which fired at the
4 HVO but people who were defending Stari Vitez in an
5 organised manner.
6 A. I was not aware that the HVO had any
7 casualties. We did not -- I did not say -- and we did
8 not fire at the HVO. We did not or I did not
9 personally see any fire from the Stari Vitez area
10 towards the HVO soldiers. All we did, as I previously
11 stated, is positioned ourselves between the area of
12 Stari Vitez and the attack by the HVO to try and put a
13 divide between the two areas.
14 Q. You are referring to the attack which began
15 on the 16th of April. What I am telling you is the
16 fact that at a later date, the HVO attacked, trying to
17 take Vitez, but failed, suffering major losses, and
18 these losses could not be inflicted on the HVO by an
19 old man with a shotgun. I am saying this because you
20 keep affirming that Stari Vitez had no defence.
21 A. Well, my recollection -- I don't know of any
22 other attack on Stari Vitez. Whether that was later in
23 April, then that may be the case, because near the end
24 of April, I was then sent home for my two weeks rest
25 and recuperation, so in that two-week period, yes,
1 there could have been, but to my knowledge, during my
2 time there, I know of no other attack on Stari Vitez.
3 Q. Right. You say that no defence was
4 organised, but I have to tell you what Sefkija Dzidic
5 told us, he was the commander of the defence of Stari
6 Vitez, and he said that Stari Vitez was defended by 250
7 people -- perhaps not 250 exactly, perhaps around 250
8 people, and you are claiming that no defensive effort
9 was made and that it was only thanks to four Warriors,
10 or how many, an end was put to the HVO attack.
11 A. Well, I didn't see any defence and I didn't
12 see any BiH soldiers in the area. From my position of
13 moving around and my static position, I didn't see any
14 of that. So whether it was happening somewhere else,
15 it was never ever later mentioned by anybody else that
16 that was the case.
17 Q. So we're coming back to the starting point,
18 that is, civilians with weapons, and you were looking
19 at uniformed -- for uniformed men.
20 Right. Never mind. Let's move on to the
21 next question.
22 You witnessed that sad event, that was the
23 internment of the victims of the conflict in the Muslim
24 part of Stari Vitez, and you told us about some of your
25 observations. All those dead bodies, according to you,
1 and the photographs which the Prosecution showed us,
2 were in polyethylene rags or sheets or bags, whatever
3 you call them. Did you come sufficiently close to
4 these plastic bags to see what was in them? I mean,
5 the question perhaps may not be in the best of taste,
6 but I think it is necessary so that we can clarify
7 certain things.
8 A. Yes, I was close, firstly at the school where
9 they were being taken from the gymnasium, especially
10 once the world media had their bit, taken their
11 pictures, once they all left, it was left to about
12 three Muslims then to continue to put the bodies onto
13 the truck. So we were the only people there. So, yes,
14 we did get a close look.
15 Also, when we moved to the burial ground in
16 Stari Vitez, again I went, I had a close look, as the
17 bodies were being removed from the vehicle and laid out
18 onto the grass.
19 Q. If I understood you properly, you said
20 yesterday that in some plastic bags, that is, at the
21 bottom, there was a lot of blood -- did I understand
22 you well? -- and from that you deduce certain
23 conclusions. Did I understand you properly?
24 A. Yes, that is correct. Due to them picking
25 up --
1 Q. Tell us, do you know that when you have a
2 dead body, from a dead body blood cannot come out,
3 blood -- what you saw in the plastic bags couldn't have
4 been the blood of the victims.
5 A. Well, it was -- I'm sorry to say, you know, I
6 was there, I witnessed it, and what was in the bottom
7 of them bags was blood. What else was it? Red paint?
8 Q. It could have been red paint because from a
9 dead body, if you ask any medical doctor, he would tell
10 you that blood cannot come out of a dead body. So ...
11 JUDGE MAY: Are you a doctor?
12 MR. RADOVIC: I have so much experience with
13 forensic experts that I can state it with some
14 certainty, and if that can be said, we can also give
15 you the opinion of a forensic expert. But I can state
16 with 100 per cent certainty that blood cannot come out
17 of a dead body, especially not after such a long time,
18 from the point of death to the time when the bodies
19 were found and transported. That is quite certain.
20 You can call an expert from The Hague if you don't
21 believe me, and he or she will be able to confirm what
22 I am saying.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier?
24 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, Mr. President, I
25 agree in principle, but there are exceptions according
1 to the type of wounds. Hypothesis have no meaning
2 inasmuch as we do not know when those bodies were put
3 into plastic bags there is therefore -- it is
4 impossible to find a solution to this problem here.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Can you move on to your next
6 question?
7 MR. RADOVIC: We haven't clarified the
8 medical question.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: It is difficult. The witness
10 is not a doctor. You are not a doctor. We would need
11 a forensic expert -- we can only take account of what he said.
12 He said that in his mind, in his opinion, this was
13 blood, and you can challenge this, but that's all.
14 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, in the course of
15 cases involving murder, according to forensic experts,
16 this is the situation. I am surprised that this can be
17 controversial, the fact that blood can come out of a
18 dead body or leak from a dead body. But I am prepared
19 to bring you a certificate from the medical faculty in
20 Zagreb that this is so.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you, but
22 the witness is not claiming that the blood was there
23 coming out of a dead body. Probably the blood was in
24 the bag, plastic bag, before people were -- when they
25 were wounded. But I don't know -- this is a
1 point that, first of all, cannot be clarified now with
2 our witness; and secondly, I wonder to what extent it
3 is relevant to your case, to establish whether or not
4 this was blood. There were about 90 corpses.
5 MR. RADOVIC: This is not controversial. I
6 would like to show that the witness is exceeding what
7 he should say as a witness, that is what he saw with
8 his own eyes and heard with his own ears. He is giving
9 us his own conclusions which have no -- which are not
10 linked to real life. He is transcending or exceeding
11 the -- what a witness should say. He is speaking about
12 things he can't know.
13 I won't insist on that question in accordance
14 with your wish. I pointed out this fact sufficiently.
15 It would be awkward if we brought an expert for this
16 trivial fact. We can consult literature to get this
17 information. You can also find it out from any doctor,
18 from any -- so let's go on to my next question.
19 Q. I am returning to these unfortunate bags.
20 You made some conclusions on the basis of the size of
21 the bags, and you said that you think that in the
22 smaller bags there were some cut -- severed heads. So
23 I'm asking you whether you saw the severed heads? None
24 of the witnesses spoke about this action of severing
25 heads with an axe or a sword.
1 Is it possible that these bags contained
2 burned skeletons? because then the dimensions of what
3 is being buried is reduced. Do you understand my
4 question?
5 A. Yes, I understand the question. I initially
6 went over because the bags were so small; I went over
7 to have a look because, as I say, the majority of bags
8 were containing bodies of varying ages. Due to the
9 size of these ones, I was tending to believe that, no,
10 you know, they couldn't kill children. So I went
11 over. It was difficult -- you couldn't see inside the
12 bag because the -- what was in there was so small that,
13 after it had been wrapped a number of times, obviously
14 plastic doesn't become clear so you couldn't see, and
15 it was suggested to me by someone who stood next to me,
16 which was a Muslim, saying that it was severed heads.
17 So that was sort of his suggestion. But, as I say, you
18 couldn't see inside the bags.
19 Q. Which means that you didn't see it with your
20 own eyes; did I understand you correctly?
21 A. Yeah. I had seen the bags and the size of
22 the bags, but as I say, you couldn't see what the
23 content of the bag was.
24 Q. Right. Now, the Muslim who told you that, I
25 am now returning to the topic of the hands and legs.
1 Could this Muslim speak English?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How could he explain what he explained to
4 you, what you said he explained to you?
5 A. He just used, obviously, body language, and
6 his hands. When I was looking, I sort of looked up,
7 and he pointed and (indicating) chopped, (indicating)
8 head. So I deduced from that that the chopped -- the
9 head (indicating) was in the bag.
10 Q. Could you have misinterpreted his signs?
11 Could you have misinterpreted his signs since you
12 couldn't speak to him nor he to you?
13 A. That is a possibility, and as I said before,
14 is that -- that was what was indicated to me, but I
15 later, you know, believed that that was not the case,
16 which I mentioned yesterday.
17 Q. No, I wanted to clarify the way of your
18 communicating with him and how you got to that
19 information. You said that you doubted it, but I would
20 like to clarify it a little bit. That's finished now.
21 Then you said something about the way in
22 which these people were killed, at least some of the
23 people who were in the plastic bags. Did you -- no
24 offence meant -- qualified to conclude how people were
25 killed? This is done in civilian life by experts,
1 forensic experts.
2 A. Well, through experience in other theatres,
3 I, for example, Northern Ireland, where we do
4 counter-terrorist operations, I have seen people that
5 have been killed with gunshot wounds, I have seen
6 people that have been blown apart, I have seen people
7 that have been badly burnt. So when I had seen the
8 bags containing the bodies with the blood, then I
9 deduced that it was gunshot wounds.
10 Q. All right. Gunshot wounds. All right.
11 Gunshot wounds. But the distance, the point of entry
12 and exit, the position of the hand, the position of the
13 man who fired the shot, you couldn't conclude that; do
14 you agree with me? Do you agree with me?
15 A. Well, yeah, that is quite obvious because I
16 wasn't -- if I was in a position to see the man that
17 was going to carry out the atrocity, then I would have
18 stepped in to stop it.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, I'm sorry to
20 interrupt you, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm not
21 clear about your position. Are you contesting that
22 about 100 people were killed in Ahmici on the 16th of
23 April? Are you disputing this fact? Regardless of the
24 position of the accused, we don't speak of the accused,
25 but as a fact, are you contesting that this happened?
1 Just so we are clear about the position of the Defence.
2 MR. RADOVIC: Let me put it like this: I am
3 not disputing that a number of people were killed in
4 Ahmici, but the figure cannot be accepted at this
5 moment. We will talk about that later. A large number
6 of people were killed in Ahmici, but we can't say how
7 many.
8 I would just like to show the Court that some
9 witnesses are presenting things not in the way in which
10 witnesses should speak, that is, how they saw and what
11 they heard. They are presenting their thinking and
12 their conclusions and they are presenting this as
13 testimony. This is the only purpose of my questioning.
14 We encountered this earlier. Body language.
15 If I show something with my hands, this can be
16 interpreted in various ways. This problem of body
17 language was encountered in a -- which was very awkward
18 for my colleague.
19 Thank you. I have finished with my
20 questioning.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Any other counsel? All
22 right. Any re-examination?
23 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, could the usher
24 show this photograph to the witness?
25 (Note: In the re-examination, there are two
1 interpretations coming over Channel 4 during French
2 interpretation)
3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit number
4 304.
5 MR. TERRIER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we do
6 not have any coloured photocopies
7 Re-examined by Mr. Terrier:
8 Q. Witness, tell us if, to your mind, this red
9 that you can see to the right at the bottom of the
10 photograph, do you think this is blood, or as
11 Mr. Radovic suggested, this is red paint?
12 A. Looking at the picture, that is, to me, red
13 blood.
14 Q. Earlier on, Mr. Radovic insisted on learning
15 what was in the smaller bag, the existence of which you
16 noted, which was on one of the photographs which were
17 tendered as evidence ... some hierarchy in horror ...
18 difference between a mutilated body and a child
19 murdered ... murdered by soldiers?
20 (Note: There are two interpretations coming
21 over the French channel)
22 Q. According to you, is it important to know ...
23 the bag contained -- the small bag contained a
24 mutilated body, perhaps a decapitated body or a child
25 killed by soldiers. Is the horror not the same ...
1 would it be the same?
2 A. Yes, it would be the same to a degree. If it
3 was decapitated bodies, yes, you know, it's horrific.
4 If it's a small child, it's even more horrific.
5 Q. I would like to go back to the question that
6 was put ... sir, between a combatant and non-combatant
7 within the context of Central Bosnia at that period of
8 time, that is, as classified by international law.
9 Don't you think they're the best or, rather, the two
10 best means of distinguishing at the time and in that
11 particular region where you were between the combatants
12 and non-combatants was, first, the weapons that they
13 carried and, secondly, the affiliation with a command
14 centre, with a command? Do you think -- do you
15 think --
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Radovic?
17 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, Your Lordships,
18 this question contains already the answer.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: It is true to a certain
20 extent. Could you possibly rephrase the question?
21 MR. TERRIER: I shall attempt to.
22 Q. Of course, I am speaking here to the
23 eyewitness that you were. At that time, in the region
24 in which you were quartered, that is, in the region of
25 Vitez, did you see so many ... who were not in uniforms
1 who would have had sophisticated weapons, like rocket
2 launchers or manning an antique aircraft weapon? Did
3 you see such men wearing civilian clothes and carrying
4 such sophisticated weapons?
5 A. The majority, as I say, the places that the
6 concentration, as we would say, of soldiers, they would
7 be in uniform. They would be carrying the more
8 sophisticated weapons, and also, if both sides were
9 wearing civilian clothes, then in a battle, it would be
10 very difficult to identify who is fighting on what
11 side.
12 The other means of identification was a
13 coloured ribbon tied to the epaulette or part of the
14 shoulder of the uniform. The other thing is, as well,
15 that the general situation out there is that the
16 majority of what I would call the soldiers, you know,
17 were commanded from command posts and, you know, due to
18 that, majority of the time, you know, these were either
19 in positions of defence, checkpoints, or manning, as
20 earlier mentioned, anti-aircraft guns, et cetera.
21 Q. Thank you. Earlier on, Mr. Radovic said that
22 HVO soldiers had been wounded by Muslims defending the
23 Stari Vitez neighbourhood, and those soldiers were then
24 leading an attack on the area, and he seemed to
25 reproach those Muslims for defending their
1 neighbourhood. While you were in Vitez, Stari Vitez,
2 did you note that Muslims would have attacked Vitez, I
3 mean Muslims from Stari Vitez?
4 A. No. In that situation, when we arrived, due
5 to the -- firstly the petrol tank had been blown up in
6 the centre of Stari Vitez, there obviously was a lot of
7 devastation, and at that stage, apart from, as already
8 mentioned with the radio traffic, what looked to be, or
9 came across to me, on the radio as people basically
10 trying to defend their homes, they didn't want to
11 leave, mainly the older people that, you know, it was a
12 concerted attack by the HVO.
13 When we assessed the situation, it was
14 assessed, as I say, by our superior commander who felt
15 that due to the fact that Stari Vitez was under attack,
16 the decision was made for the safety of these people to
17 remove them from the area.
18 So the conclusion that you can come to there
19 by that decision made by the superior commander is that
20 there was at that time no form of defence in Stari
21 Vitez, and therefore, to save a great loss of life,
22 that decision was made to evacuate the people from the
23 area.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, I would like this
1 photograph to be tendered into evidence. I have no
2 further questions for this witness. Thank you.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: I have one question for the
4 witness about civilians carrying weapons. Now, would
5 you agree, on the basis of your military knowledge and
6 your training as a military man in the U.K., that the
7 fact that a civilian carries weapons and may use
8 weapons is relevant in two regards: First of all, if
9 you, as a military man with your armed forces encounter
10 a civilian, then you can shoot at the civilian because
11 you see that he's carrying weapons; and secondly, if
12 you capture the civilian, he is not entitled to POW
13 status. Now, would you agree with this? As I say, on
14 the basis of your training and knowledge with these two
15 propositions?
16 A. Yes, that is true.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Then my second
18 and more important question is: When you were in Stari
19 Vitez, did you happen to see any civilian carrying
20 weapons regardless of whether they were sophisticated?
21 How many?
22 A. One.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Only one.
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Carrying weapons.
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right.
3 There's no objection to the witness being released?
4 Thank you for giving evidence. You may now
5 be released.
6 (The witness withdrew)
7 JUDGE CASSESE: We now move on to Witness
8 No. 7? Good. So no protective measures, I understand.
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: That's correct.
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Would you
12 please make the solemn declaration?
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
15 truth.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 WITNESS: NIHAD REHIBIC
18 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
19 Q. Good morning. Could you start by telling us
20 your name and your age, please?
21 A. I am Nihad Rehibic. I am 49 years old.
22 Q. Mr. Rehibic, could you tell us how you are
23 presently employed?
24 A. I am a pensioner.
25 Q. At one time were you a teacher of the Bosnian
1 language?
2 A. That is correct. That is my profession. I'm
3 a teacher.
4 Q. Now, in 1993, specifically in April of 1993,
5 where were you and what were you doing?
6 A. In 1993, I was a member of the army. In
7 April 1993, I was in Stari Vitez.
8 Q. Did you have a rank in the army?
9 A. In this army, in the Bosnia and Herzegovina
10 army, I had no rank. I was in the former JNA.
11 Q. Why did you have no rank?
12 A. I was retired. I was a volunteer. I
13 volunteered immediately after the aggression on Bosnia
14 and Herzegovina. And in view of the fact that I wasn't
15 attracted to that position, I was a volunteer in the
16 army.
17 Q. What was your function in the army at that
18 time?
19 A. In May 1992, I went with the unit to the
20 front-line in Visoko. Then I was deputy commander of
21 the unit. And in August 1992, I was withdrawn to the
22 headquarters of the army, of the Territorial Defence,
23 and I was coordinator between the units on the
24 frontline, Vitez-Brezovsko and Travnik-Turbe.
25 Q. Were you in Vitez on or about April 28th,
1 1993?
2 A. On the 28th of April, 1993, I was in Stari
3 Vitez.
4 Q. Did a burial take place on that day?
5 A. On that day, we were taking over the bodies
6 of the people killed in the course of the past
7 conflicts and fighting, and buried them. The commander
8 tasked me to organise the burial and to conduct the
9 whole operation, accepting the bodies, receiving the
10 bodies, and burying them.
11 Q. Could I ask you if you're having trouble with
12 your headphones in any way? They look like they're not
13 on your head very well.
14 A. It's too wide for me. It's falling off, so I
15 have to hold it.
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Perhaps the usher could
17 help. It looks uncomfortable.
18 A. It's better now.
19 Q. Could you tell us what you did to help
20 organise this burial?
21 A. Via the intermediary of UNPROFOR, we learned
22 that we would receive the bodies to bury them. We
23 said -- we agreed that the burial would take place in
24 Stari Vitez, in a meadow which we requested for that
25 purpose. I formed my team, the team of persons who
1 would receive the bodies, make a record. I tried to
2 identify the bodies and organise the operation in
3 accordance with the rules, so that we would know later
4 where a body is buried.
5 Q. Before you received these bodies, did you
6 know where these bodies were coming from?
7 A. Yes. We were told by UNPROFOR
8 representatives that HVO collected the bodies from that
9 area of Vitez which were then put in a secondary
10 school. They were coming mainly from the area of
11 Ahmici.
12 Q. Was there any concern about acting quickly to
13 bury these bodies, and if so, why was there such a
14 concern?
15 A. Yes. There was insistence on these bodies
16 being buried quickly because a long time had elapsed
17 from the time of death. It was summer. And, quite
18 simply, there was a danger of infection.
19 Q. Now, tell us, on that day precisely where
20 were these bodies collected by your team in Stari
21 Vitez?
22 A. In Stari Vitez, we didn't collect --
23 Q. That's my mistake, I'm sorry. Where in Vitez
24 did you collect these bodies?
25 A. We sent a truck, a FAP vehicle to collect the
1 bodies from a gym in the secondary school in Stari
2 Vitez.
3 Q. Did your team bring with you any bodies to
4 exchange for the bodies that you were going to receive
5 at the school?
6 A. We didn't take bodies for exchange, but when
7 the bodies were brought, we had four bodies in Stari
8 Vitez, which were on that territory and we handed them
9 over on that day.
10 Q. What could you tell us about those four
11 bodies that you handed over that day?
12 A. The first day of the fighting, in the area
13 between Kominaca, and we call it Travnicha Street,
14 near the house of Ibrahim Crnovrshjahin, between the
15 lines of army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and HVO in
16 Kominaca, Ahmici, closer to our lines, three bodies
17 were found after the first day of fighting, and we
18 brought them to our territories and we kept them there
19 until the exchange.
20 Q. How many bodies did you receive or did your
21 team receive at the school in Vitez, exchange for those
22 three bodies?
23 A. On that day, we received a full truck, and
24 the freezer -- they couldn't be all put in the truck,
25 and we got a refrigerated truck from the HVO. 495
1 bodies arrived on that day. According to the list we
2 received, there were more bodies on the list.
3 Q. I may have misunderstood the number that you
4 gave, but, again, do you recall how many bodies you
5 received that day?
6 A. Ninety-four, I'm sorry, 94 bodies were
7 received.
8 Q. Now, as I understand it, you went or your
9 team went to the school with a truck but, in fact, a
10 truck wasn't big enough to carry the bodies back and so
11 another truck was supplied by the HVO at the school; is
12 that right?
13 A. That is correct. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall what part of the day it was
15 when your team went to the school to collect the
16 bodies? Was it the morning or the afternoon?
17 A. It was in the afternoon.
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time I would ask the
19 usher to hand the witness the next exhibit.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 305.
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
22 Q. Could you tell us, Mr. Rehibic, what this
23 photograph shows?
24 A. In this photograph, the school is shown and
25 the loading of the bodies into the truck.
1 Q. Was this on the day of the burial, on the
2 28th?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, if you notice on the lower right-hand
5 side of the photograph, there appears to be an arm with
6 a watch on it. Just in terms of placing the time, that
7 might be useful, if you could -- lower right-hand side
8 of the picture -- point to that watch?
9 A. (Indicating)
10 Q. As best as I can make out --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- it looks like ten after.
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Do you recognise anybody in this photograph?
15 A. I can't recognise the faces. Sorry. Sorry.
16 Next to the body in the middle, the one with the mask
17 is Josip Grgic.
18 Q. Could you put that photograph back on the
19 ELMO, if you could, and point to the person you
20 recognise?
21 A. That's the person (indicating).
22 Q. And who is he, Mr. Grgic?
23 A. Mr. Grgic, before the war, was the head of
24 the school, and I knew him very well. He came to Stari
25 Vitez. He gave us the list of the bodies.
1 Q. So Mr. Grgic was a former colleague of yours
2 and you knew him well?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You mentioned a list, he gave you a list.
5 What do you mean?
6 A. With the bodies, we received a list which the
7 HVO unit, the civilian defence, made up for the
8 exchange. They did it in Vitez. And in Stari Vitez,
9 they gave us the list so that we could see how many
10 bodies we were receiving, and what bodies because that
11 unit did the identification where it was possible,
12 where identification was possible.
13 Q. If I might make this suggestion? You could
14 actually move a little bit back from the microphone.
15 Perhaps the usher could assist? And it won't be so
16 loud.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Could you describe in a little bit more
19 detail what this list comprised of or what it said on
20 that list and how you could use that list to make an
21 identification of the bodies that you found?
22 A. When the bodies were brought, Grgic came with
23 the refrigerated truck which went ahead with the
24 truck. Since I was in charge of receiving the bodies,
25 I met them, this truck, and greeted Grgic. We greeted
1 each other. At that moment Grgic gave me the list,
2 which was on three or four sheets of A4 paper and there
3 were numbers from 1 to 103. In some cases, it said --
4 it stated the name and last name of the person, of the
5 dead body. In most, in the majority of cases, it was
6 unknown, identity unknown, with a description of the
7 body: clothes, age, height.
8 When we received the list, then we started
9 comparing while unloading. We used the list we
10 received from Grgic and made our own list and the
11 numbers were different then, but we also used the notes
12 on the lists we received.
13 Q. So let me make sure that I understand this.
14 The list you received from Mr. Grgic contained numbers
15 from 1 to about 100 or so, and next to each number
16 there would be a name of a person or an unknown, if
17 they could not identify; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Then you would somehow use that list to help
20 identify the bodies that were piled into the truck at
21 the school and that were later delivered to Stari
22 Vitez. Could you explain to us how you and your team
23 would use that list of numbers and names to try to
24 identify the bodies as they came out of the truck at
25 Stari Vitez?
1 A. In view of the fact that the loading of the
2 bodies didn't follow the order on the list and the
3 numbers of the list, when unloading the bodies, the
4 number that was unloaded, we found it in the HVO list,
5 and on the basis of those notes that we received from
6 HVO with the number, under which it was unloaded, we
7 made notes. If we unloaded corpse number 1, body
8 number 1, and in the list of HVO it said 35, we used
9 the data on that list and we gave with one those data.
10 A large number of corpses we identified on the spot
11 because they had their documents, their ID cards and
12 other documents, and some of these persons we knew
13 personally.
14 Q. Just to clarify a little bit. Did the
15 bodies, as they were given to you that day, the bodies
16 themselves placed in bags, was there some sort of
17 identification paper, number on the bags that
18 corresponded to the number in the list provided to you
19 by the HVO?
20 A. Yes. Yes. In almost all cases, we found
21 numbers on bags identical with numbers on the list
22 received from the HVO. In one case, I think it had
23 fallen off, and we did not find this number, but we
24 noted it down in our minutes.
25 Q. So, for example, if a body bag came to you
1 with a big number 2 on it, you would look on the list
2 given to you by Mr. Grgic under number 2, and there
3 would be some kind of identification that corresponded
4 to number 2 on that list, either a name or an unknown,
5 but some sort of identification; is that correct?
6 A. Yes. Quite so.
7 Q. Now, you indicated that you made your own
8 list then. Could you tell us how you did that and why
9 you did that?
10 A. Well, for the documentation purposes so as to
11 have documentation. That is why we made that list. So
12 that later, one could know on the site of the burial
13 where each of these bodies was actually buried.
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If I might ask the usher to
15 display the next exhibit to the witness, please?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 306.
17 A. This photograph shows the unloading of
18 bodies, when they arrived. The first body to be
19 unloaded from the refrigerator van, that is what we can
20 see and I can recognise Mr. Grgic here in the left
21 corner. He has a protective mask on his head.
22 This one here is a lad from Stari Vitez. I
23 can't recall his name. And this one here, fellow.
24 Q. Now, this photograph then was taken after the
25 bodies were transported to the cemetery in Stari Vitez;
1 is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. By the way, you mentioned people wearing
4 masks. Why were people wearing masks, at least some of
5 them?
6 A. Masks were indispensable for everybody but we
7 did not have them, enough of them, simply because the
8 smell, the stench, the unpleasant odour was such that
9 one simply had to have something. I mean, those were
10 horrible scenes.
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the witness now be shown
12 previously admitted Exhibit 302?
13 A. These are bodies unloaded off the
14 refrigerator van, and the first corpse to the right at
15 the bottom is number 1, so we then proceeded to
16 identification by our commission.
17 Q. Now, if you could look very carefully -- and
18 it may be difficult for you to see -- but the body
19 that's actually being taken out of the truck by the two
20 men next to the truck appears to have something white
21 in the bag. Can you see that?
22 A. This body here, the last one, was carbonised
23 because there were quite a number of bodies that were
24 completely burnt. And it's small.
25 Q. What I'd like you to look at on that body,
1 and it again may be difficult for you to see, is a
2 little white, it looks like a piece of paper or
3 something in the bag. Do you see what I'm talking
4 about?
5 A. I think I'm pointing at it. That's the
6 number.
7 Q. And what do you mean, "That's the number"?
8 Could you explain that to the Judges, please?
9 A. This is how bodies were delivered to us, with
10 their numbers on the bags, and that number corresponded
11 with the numbers in the minutes which was given to us
12 by the HVO when we took over the bodies.
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I see. Could the witness now
14 be shown previously admitted Exhibit 300?
15 Could you tell us what's happening in this
16 picture?
17 A. This is also a photograph showing a victim, a
18 killed person, and here you can clearly see signs of a
19 knife because there were cases like that too.
20 Q. What is the man doing, though, as he's
21 looking into the bag; could you tell us?
22 A. This man here uncovered the body so as to
23 take the photograph, because in addition to compiling
24 the list, we also were videotaping it so as to have
25 authentic documents about the bodies.
1 Q. Could you describe for us how the bodies were
2 placed in the mass grave? In what order were they
3 placed, and how did you record the order in which they
4 were placed into the mass grave?
5 A. Well, since it was wartime and we were trying
6 to be as precise, as accurate as possible in
7 determining the order of the buried, so when peace came
8 we could have accurate, authentic information. Now, in
9 this grave that we constructed with the machinery
10 provided by UNPROFOR, we started from the brook, from
11 the ravine, and across it is the mosque, and in this
12 meadow we then buried them according to the numbers in
13 our list, from 1 and onward, and alongside every body,
14 we also placed a wooden -- we call it basluk, which
15 also carried a number identical with the number in our
16 records, so that the order of sequence of burials
17 corresponds to the order of sequence in our records.
18 Q. You mentioned records. Did you make a list
19 so that you could refer to it later which shows the
20 order in which the bodies were placed in the ground?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time I would ask the
23 usher to show the next exhibit to the witness and, in
24 conjunction with that list, there is an English
25 translation which we will also distribute.
1 THE REGISTRAR: The list is marked 307 and
2 the English translation 307A.
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
4 Q. Mr. Rehibic, could you look at this Exhibit,
5 which is 307, and tell us what that is please?
6 A. Well, this is the list which was made on the
7 day of the burial. Later, we gained some operative
8 knowledge about some of these persons and identified
9 them on the basis of descriptions that we made that
10 day.
11 Q. So let's just take an example so we can see
12 how this list works. Look at number 6, for example, on
13 your list.
14 A. Yes.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could it be placed on the
16 ELMO, please, for the sake of the interpreters? We do
17 not have it.
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If the usher could assist in
19 placing the list on the ELMO for the sake of the
20 interpreters.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
23 Q. Let's look at number 6 on your list. Could
24 you read that out for us, please?
25 A. Number 6, is Ahmic Sukrija from Ahmici,
1 brought, according to the number -- under number 90 of
2 the HVO records on the 24th of April, '93. That is how
3 we did it on the day of the burial. That is how we
4 compiled our records using also the notes -- rather,
5 the information found in the HVO records. He was
6 already identified by those records.
7 Q. So when it says "Brought as number 90
8 according to the HVO list," that number 90 would have
9 been the number that this individual had on the HVO
10 list as you received it; is that correct?
11 A. On the HVO list, and the bag in which the
12 body was.
13 Q. And on the bag. So on the bag, it would have
14 90 in the bag. You would have 90 on the bag, look at
15 the list, see Sukrija Ahmic; is that right?
16 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Now, number 6 on your list, what does number
18 6 mean on your list with respect to how this body was
19 placed in the ground? Or where this body was placed in
20 the ground? is a better question.
21 A. Well, this number 6 is also number 6 in the
22 ground, that is, in the grave. He was buried at the
23 site, the place number 6 in the grave.
24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If now the witness can be
25 shown the next exhibit, please?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 308.
2 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
3 Q. Now, what does Exhibit 308, this photograph
4 that's been placed on the machine next to you, show
5 us? What is happening here?
6 A. Here, this photograph shows how bodies were
7 placed in the grave. This is the first body. In the
8 right corner, we see Abdulativ Barucija. This fellow
9 in the camouflage uniform, I think he is Sokol's son,
10 Topcic I believe is his last name, I don't know his
11 first name, the one in the blue jacket.
12 Q. So this body would be the first body on your
13 list then; is that right?
14 A. Yes, it is, the first body on our list.
15 Q. And it's described on your list -- you might
16 go ahead and read it to us. How is this body described
17 on your list?
18 A. NN, male, unidentified, from Ahmici, brought
19 under number 84, according to the records of the HVO
20 commission members of the 24th of April, 1993.
21 Q. You have a description here.
22 A. Description of the individual: male, aged
23 around 50, receding hair, on the obese side, short blue
24 jacket, corduroys, boots; black with buttons.
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Now may the witness be shown
1 previously admitted Exhibit 298, please?
2 Q. Could you tell us what 298, this exhibit,
3 this photograph shows, and what is going on here?
4 A. Here, this photograph shows how bodies are
5 put in the grave following the order of the records.
6 These wooden sticks are also marked with numbers
7 identical with the numbers in the records that we made
8 and the bodies were then buried in this grave in this
9 order.
10 As for the individuals here, I recognise Asim
11 Begovic, this fellow in the blue jacket, he was also in
12 the previous photograph. This again -- I know that his
13 father's name is Sokol, but I don't know his last name.
14 Q. Let's look at the second body in that
15 picture. We've already talked about the first. The
16 second body appears to be a small body. How is that
17 described as number 2 on your list, please?
18 A. The list says that NN, carbonised corpse from
19 Ahmici, number 81, HVO commission of the 24th of April,
20 1994 (sic).
21 Q. And "NN" means "not known" or "unknown"?
22 A. Unknown.
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Could the witness be shown
24 previously marked Exhibit 296?
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz, have you got
1 many questions?
2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This series of questions are
3 just two more seconds.
4 Q. Now, look at Exhibit 296. We had just
5 finished talking about the unknown carbonised corpse
6 from Ahmici as being that small body. Do you see that
7 body there in this picture that's 296, called 296?
8 A. Here on this picture it is again the second
9 one.
10 Q. The second one. Now, if we count then six
11 bodies from the first body, one, two, three, four,
12 five, six, whose body would that be?
13 A. Well, according to the list, that Sukrija
14 Ahmic's body.
15 Q. Could you point to his body on that
16 photograph on the ELMO so we can see and count.
17 A. This is the body (indicating).
18 Q. And then, when the grave was covered, these
19 wooden sticks that we see alongside the bodies would be
20 placed on the ground above each body with a number
21 placed on them; is that right?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. And that number would correspond to your
24 list?
25 A. Yes, an identical one.
1 Q. And in that way, the relatives, for example,
2 of Sukrija Ahmic would know where their relative was
3 buried; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This may be a good time to
6 break, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: We will rise now for 30
8 minutes.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.08 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.42 a.m.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz?
12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. While you were at the Stari Vitez burial
14 ground receiving these bodies that had been collected
15 from the school, the Vitez school, did you have an
16 opportunity to observe closely the condition that these
17 bodies were in when you received them that day?
18 A. In the beginning, we inspected directly a
19 certain number of bodies, as one can see from the
20 records made when we took the bodies over. However, as
21 it was getting dark, we simply could not inspect all
22 the bodies and, on the basis of information from the
23 list, from the record of the HVO, we took over the
24 bodies and established simply the identity between the
25 number on the bag and the number in the HVO list.
1 Q. At least at the beginning of this process,
2 when there was sufficient time, did you make any effort
3 to verify the identification that you received from the
4 HVO by examining any papers that may have been on the
5 bodies that you received?
6 A. Why, yes. First, the bodies from the
7 refrigerator were unloaded and I think we examined all
8 of those, we unwrapped those -- the polyethylene in
9 which they were wrapped and then compared the body with
10 the list and added also our observations. On a number
11 of bodies, we found their ID cards or some other
12 documents, and in this manner, we established the
13 identity and the authenticity or, rather, the validity
14 of the list given us by the HVO.
15 Q. And while you were doing that kind of
16 identification, did you have an opportunity to observe
17 the physical condition of these bodies and the kinds of
18 injuries that they had suffered?
19 A. A number of bodies we examined were in a
20 horrible state. Some bodies were massacred. I
21 remember a body with the skull all crushed in; there
22 was simply skin hanging off the neck. I remember a
23 body with marks of a knife at the neck. A number
24 carbonised, burnt, and it was really hair-raising.
25 Q. If we can refer again to your list which is
1 Exhibit 307 and it's in front of you now, and again for
2 purposes of the interpreters, it might be best to put
3 it on the ELMO machine.
4 I've just been informed that the interpreters
5 now have copies so it's not necessary to put it on the
6 machine. Thank you.
7 I guess before we get into the list, let me
8 ask you a couple of preliminary questions. Could you
9 give us an idea of the age groups that these bodies
10 represented and the sex that these bodies represented?
11 A. Among the bodies, there were very many
12 women. They were aged from all -- I mean, from the
13 youngest to the eldest, there were children of three
14 months, a child of seven years of age, a 12-year-old
15 child, there were old men of 70 and more.
16 Q. And what kind of clothing for the most part
17 were these bodies dressed in?
18 A. Civilians by and large. There were a few who
19 had some part of uniform and, I should say, only some
20 odd number, perhaps a jacket which would be part of a
21 uniform or trousers a part of a uniform and the rest
22 civilian, but they were civilians, most of them. There
23 were some in pyjamas as well.
24 Q. If you could now look at your list? There
25 are several bodies noted in this list that I want to
1 draw your attention to. First if you could look at
2 number 4. You mention that there were children. Could
3 you tell us and read out to us what number 4, body
4 number 4, is?
5 A. Number 4 on the list says a male child from
6 Ahmici, about ten years of age, brought under number 83
7 of the HVO record of 24th of April, '93. Description
8 of the child: male child, ten years of age, chestnut
9 brown hair.
10 Q. We have already spoken about number 6.
11 Number 7, could you tell us about that?
12 A. Number 7, it says NN woman, which means
13 unidentified woman from Ahmici, relatively young,
14 brought under number 89 of the HVO record of 24th of
15 April, '93. Description of the person: girl, woman,
16 longish red hair, knitted cardigan, with grey tights,
17 and boots with high heels.
18 Q. Number 8 lists a man by the name of Meho
19 Hrustanovic; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And number 10, another young girl from
22 Ahmici; is that right?
23 A. Yes, number 10, it says a little girl from
24 Ahmici, 12 years, reddish and rather long hair, grey
25 jacket with lining and with a hood, bright-coloured
1 pyjamas, pearl necklace and boots, lined boots.
2 Q. And then number 13 is Aziz Pezer?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. With no other information about the state of
5 his body or the age of this particular corpse?
6 A. Well, that was at the time when we were
7 afraid that we wouldn't be able to bury them, and then
8 we began to bury them only on the basis of the HVO
9 list, and we simply established whether the number on
10 the list and the number on the bag, whether they
11 corresponded, and we subsequently then tried to
12 identify the bodies on the basis of their description,
13 descriptions that we had.
14 Q. Let me draw your attention as well to number
15 12, an unknown female from Ahmici, aged about 60. And
16 then there is a description of her clothing, a Turkish
17 woman's trousers, multicoloured slippers. Number 12.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then at the last, it says where this body
20 was found. Could you tell us where this body was found
21 according to your list?
22 A. Found in front of Meho Ahmic's house, Meho
23 Hrustanovic in the brackets, House number 7, Ahmici.
24 This is the information that was established.
25 Q. Now, let's look at number 18. Originally
1 number 18 was designated as an unknown male; is that
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you read the description that you have
5 noted under number 18 as originally written?
6 A. Under 18, according to the HVO records, it
7 said: NN male, brought under number 53, according to
8 the HVO records of the 22nd of April, 1993.
9 Description of the individual: a male, 40 years of
10 age, fair, well-built, according to the testimony of
11 Ante Covic, the victim is from Kakanj, a technician at
12 Impregnacija. His father-in-law is Sakib Ahmic. That
13 is what the record that we received said.
14 Q. Now, have you done some additional or did you
15 do some additional investigation to determine the
16 identity of that corpse?
17 A. And on the basis of these -- of this
18 information, we established that it was Muzafer Puscul
19 because he had been born in Kakanj and worked for
20 Impregnacija, I think he was an engineer or a
21 technician or something, and we found no other persons
22 that would fit into this description. I mean, both the
23 age and the facial traits and everything would fit into
24 the image that we had of Muzafer Puscul.
25 Q. And number 14 is who?
1 A. Number 14 is Zec Sabahudin from Ahmici
2 brought under number 96 of the HVO list, 24th of April,
3 1993, where it says that he's the son of Avdo, born in
4 1956.
5 Q. Now, just backtracking one question. On
6 number 18, you've indicated that you've established
7 that number 18, the corpse for number 18, is Muzafer
8 Puscul. In your list that you have in front of you,
9 did you make any changes to that list in order to make
10 it clear that number 18 is, in fact, Muzafer Puscul?
11 A. Yes, we wrote it in pencil, we wrote the
12 first and last name of the victim in pencil.
13 Q. And so the Court's Exhibit, the original
14 exhibit that you have in front of you, will have that
15 change in pencil or pen. The English translation,
16 however, does not have that change, just for the
17 information of the Court.
18 Were there other places in this list where
19 you made additional identifications after the fact and
20 pencilled them in, and if so, could you tell us where
21 they are?
22 A. Yes. Number 23. According to the HVO list,
23 it said unknown man, carbonised, brought under number
24 61, according to the HVO list, of the 24th of April,
25 1993. Description: male carbonised, found in Mustafa
1 Ahmic's house. No other data or information. The same
2 case is 25. Unknown male, carbonised, brought under
3 number 62 of the HVO list of 22nd April, 1993. The
4 record says: male, carbonised, found in Mustafa
5 Ahmic's house.
6 We later found out that this was Sabahudin
7 Mrkonja under 23, and under 25, Samija Mrkonja, they
8 were husband and wife. Mustafa Ahmic's sister and
9 brother-in-law. They lived in his house.
10 Q. Have you pencilled those two additional names
11 in the proper place in the original list that you have
12 in front of you?
13 A. In the original list, these names did not
14 exist. On the 24th, when the activities with HVO
15 stopped, then the list was amended or the names were
16 added.
17 Q. May I draw your attention now to number 35,
18 please. Without reading the entire description, could
19 you tell us who that is?
20 A. Number 35 is Muhamed Neslanovic, son of
21 Jusuf.
22 Q. And number 38, tell us who that is?
23 A. Number 38, Brko Abdulah, son of Mehmed from
24 Visegrad, brought under number 23 of the HVO list of
25 the 20th of April, 1993. The record says: Abdulah
1 Brko son of Mehmed, born on the 25th of July, 1945, in
2 Visegrad, Nezuci No. 9.
3 Q. Do you know where this body was found?
4 A. The name is not known.
5 Q. Just to clarify then, around Visegrad, for
6 example, number 38, would indicate where this person
7 was either born or had lived, does not indicate where
8 the body was found; is that right?
9 A. It was found in the area of Ahmici. It is a
10 refugee, he's a refugee. Refugees were accommodated in
11 the area of Vitez. Since we took over the data, it was
12 during the night. That was the HVO data or
13 information.
14 Q. Did additional bodies come several days
15 later, after April 28th, additional bodies that were
16 buried in Stari Vitez?
17 A. Yes. Around May, the 10th of May, the
18 UNPROFOR representatives brought corpses, bodies. It
19 seems to me that at the end, under number 96 and 95 and
20 97.
21 Q. When you say "at the end," you mean at the
22 end of your list; is that right?
23 A. Yes, that's the end of the list.
24 Q. And who is, according to this list, number
25 95?
1 A. According to this list, this is Ahmic Naser,
2 son of Sakib from Ahmici, brought with his family on
3 the 10th of May, 1993. Corpses carbonised.
4 Q. And number 96?
5 A. Number 97, at the point when we received the
6 bodies, it said Ahmic Naser without the name from
7 Ahmici. A seven year old child brought on the 10th of
8 May, 1993, with his parents, carbonised corpse. Later
9 on we found out that it was Elvis, Naser's son.
10 Q. You were just referring to number 97; is that
11 right? Is that right, number 97? You need to answer
12 so that we have it on the record, out loud.
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. You indicated that you had,
15 subsequent to the original typing of this list,
16 determined that the name of number 97 was Elvis. Did
17 you, in fact, write in the name "Elvis" in the list
18 that you have in front of you?
19 A. Yes. It was written subsequently in pencil.
20 Q. Now, back to number 96. Who is that?
21 A. Naser's wife, Ahmic Edina from Ahmici,
22 brought with her family on the 10th of May, 1993.
23 Corpse carbonised.
24 Q. And finally number 98?
25 A. Number 98 is Ahmic Sejo, son of Naser from
1 Ahmici, a three-month-old child brought with his
2 parents and brother on the 10th of May, 1993.
3 Carbonised corpse.
4 Q. Were you present when these carbonised
5 corpses were brought to Stari Vitez?
6 A. Yes, I was personally present at their
7 burial.
8 Q. Would you describe what you saw?
9 A. There were nylon bags containing ash, there
10 was a dust in them, and they were buried in this grave,
11 at the end of the grave (indicating).
12 Q. Now, you mentioned a little bit earlier that
13 there was a video record made. Do you recall who made
14 that video, whether it was UNPROFOR, or whether it was
15 one of your group?
16 A. From our group, from the headquarters, from
17 the Commission for the Reception of Bodies and Burial,
18 in addition to operations offices, we had the
19 information officer, I think it was Ahmic, Mehmed's
20 brother, the younger brother. He was taking everything
21 with his camera. I don't remember anything else.
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time I would ask that
23 the video be played, and from time to time, not too
24 often, we may stop just to have the witness comment on
25 what he's seeing and what he recognises.
1 And if the usher could assure that the video
2 is shown on his screen? Thank you.
3 (Videotape played)
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
5 Q. Would you tell us what's happening here?
6 A. These are the machines digging the grave.
7 Q. This is in Stari Vitez in the area
8 surrounding the field; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that you there?
11 A. This is me.
12 Q. Do you know whose graves these are? Were
13 these here?
14 A. These are the graves that existed earlier of
15 the persons killed in Stari Vitez during the fighting,
16 during the attacks on Stari Vitez, from that period.
17 Q. Now, you see two trucks there. Are these the
18 two trucks you had spoken about earlier?
19 A. Yes. This is the refrigerator truck in which
20 the corpses were brought.
21 Q. Do you see that white piece of paper in that
22 second bag? Is that that number, that slip with a
23 number that you were talking about earlier?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What is happening here?
1 If we could put that on stop for a minute,
2 please?
3 A. This is the moment when we are receiving the
4 bodies, unloading them, and identifying them,
5 comparing -- from the list and comparing the number of
6 the corpse, and then comes our identification of the
7 corpse.
8 Q. And, again, I think it's visible, the white
9 slips of paper in the bags, or at least in the first
10 two bags. You can't really show it on this video. We
11 can proceed.
12 (Videotape played)
13 Q. This just shows it more clearly. There you
14 are. Does that look like -- that red substance in the
15 bag, does that look like blood to you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you, in fact, see blood in the body bags
18 that day?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What's happening here, please?
21 A. This is the comparison or verifying the data
22 based on the ID.
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If we could stop there for a
24 moment?
25 Q. What is happening there?
1 A. Here, on the hand, is the number, and now we
2 are checking the number on the hand and comparing it to
3 the list, to the HVO list.
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: You can continue. Thank you.
5 (Videotape played)
6 Q. Is that a number that was found on the body,
7 that piece of paper?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said that some of the bodies were
10 charred. Is that an example?
11 A. Yes, that's right. That's the charred body.
12 Q. You can see the piece of paper there pretty
13 clearly, can you not?
14 A. Yes. This is a charred body too.
15 Q. Now, what does this show?
16 A. The bodies are taken away to the grave.
17 Q. And, again, placed in the order that
18 corresponds to your list, which is Exhibit 307?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What is happening here?
21 A. This is a religious ritual, the bowing at a
22 burial, during a burial.
23 Q. Do you know where the congregation to
24 participate in that service came from?
25 A. These are people from Stari Vitez,
1 inhabitants of Stari Vitez.
2 Q. You can hear the sound of machinery in the
3 background. What's happening that we don't see here?
4 A. Now the excavator is digging another grave.
5 Because the first one was too small to take all the
6 bodies, a second one is being dug now.
7 Q. Is there some sense of urgency to get the job
8 done at this point?
9 A. Yes. It is getting dark, and we couldn't
10 wait for the first grave to be finished and to start
11 the second one. Because it was getting dark, we had to
12 hurry up.
13 Q. Were you also losing people, people leaving?
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, Mirjan
17 Kupreskic asks to be excused to go out. He says he's
18 not feeling well.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. You may
20 continue.
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Is it permissible to proceed
22 without --
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. With the consent --
24 yes.
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think we will proceed with
1 the video.
2 Q. The last question was whether people had been
3 leaving throughout the day. Was that a problem?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Why were they leaving and what was happening?
6 A. It was getting dark and shots were -- firing
7 was heard. Some shots were coming. And for this
8 reason, the number of people was reduced.
9 Q. Was the stench a problem as well for some
10 people?
11 A. Absolutely. People couldn't stand it
12 anymore.
13 Q. So what is happening now?
14 A. Well, as it is getting dark, we could not
15 unload them to the meadow. We simply drove the truck
16 to the grave, and from there on, we buried them
17 directly.
18 Q. So this would be the second grave then, the
19 one that we heard being dug earlier?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. What's happening here?
22 A. Well, here again we are verifying the --
23 checking the number that we have on the record, on the
24 list, and the number which is attached to the bag.
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you. If the witness
1 could now be shown previously admitted Exhibit 294?
2 Q. What does this show, Mr. Rehibic?
3 A. These are the graves where the bodies were
4 buried in two rows. These wooden sticks in both rows,
5 this is the first row and the numbers from left to
6 right, one, two, three, four, and this is the second
7 row, also from left to right in ascending order.
8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If the witness may be shown
9 the next photograph, please?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 310.
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
12 Q. Now, Exhibit 310 has been placed on the ELMO,
13 which is a photograph. What is that a photograph of?
14 A. This -- here we see what this grave site
15 looks like today where all those bodies were buried.
16 Along this fence we have the first row and up there is
17 the second one.
18 Q. And the sticks that were placed there five
19 years ago are still, for the most part, there; is that
20 right, the markers?
21 A. Yes, they're still there, unchanged. As we
22 put them then, nothing has changed to this day,
23 although some changes have been made, but we need more
24 verifications and authentication and so forth to really
25 change anything.
1 Q. Is there a memorial plaque at the cemetary to
2 indicate who is buried there?
3 A. There is a memorial plaque at the cemetery
4 with names of the victims according to the record made
5 by the commission.
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the witness be shown the
7 next photograph, please?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 311.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you mind, Mr. Moskowitz,
10 if I ask a question to the witness since we are still
11 on Exhibit 310?
12 I wonder whether those houses are all Muslim
13 or are there Croats -- I mean, the houses we see here
14 in this photograph. Are they Muslim or Croat? Are
15 there also Croatian houses?
16 A. These houses we see here are Muslim, and
17 behind them there is the Lasic (phoen) Street where
18 there are also some Croat houses and there were several
19 families there with us. For the duration of the war,
20 they were there.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: This house, the first one we
22 see, the big one with a two-sloped roof, is a Muslim
23 house?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: As well as the other one to
1 the right?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
5 Q. Could you tell us what Exhibit 311 shows?
6 A. Well, here we see this plaque which is there
7 today with the names of the victims according to the
8 list that was done, that is, the record.
9 Q. The actual list that's located inside the
10 showcase or the case, do you know what that is made out
11 of and whether it is disintegrating or whether it is
12 still in existence?
13 A. It's still in existence.
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Finally, may the witness be
15 shown the last photograph, please?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 312.
17 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
18 Q. Could you tell us now what 312 is, Exhibit
19 312?
20 A. Here we see the list of those buried into
21 graves in the order of the list.
22 Q. Now, I placed some little dots next to
23 certain names on that list. Can you see them, those
24 little dots?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Starting at the top, and it may be difficult
2 for you to read, but right at the top, looking at
3 number 6 on that list --
4 A. More, more, more. I can't see. I can't see
5 anything. I can't see it. You have to move it
6 away ...
7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: You have to pull it back a
8 little bit. That's better for now. And pull it down a
9 little bit so we can see it at the very top.
10 Q. Okay. The first dot -- the picture is not
11 very good -- but that should be number 6. Can you read
12 that name? That's better, much better.
13 A. Sukrija Ahmic from Ahmici.
14 Q. And look at number 8. Who is that?
15 A. Number 8 is Meho (Vehbija) Hrustanovic.
16 Q. Skipping down to number 13?
17 A. Number 13 is Pezer Aziz from Ahmici.
18 Q. And number 14?
19 A. Number 14, Sabahudin Zec from Ahmici.
20 Q. And number 15?
21 A. Number 15, Rasim (Ramiza) Ahmic.
22 Q. We didn't put a dot next to 16, but please
23 read his name out as well.
24 A. Number 16, Nazif (Ramiza) Ahmic.
25 Q. Seventeen?
1 A. Ramiz (Seho) Ahmic.
2 Q. And number 18?
3 A. Eighteen is NN, a male.
4 Q. Have you since identified who that unknown
5 male is, number 18? You may refer to your list if you
6 need to.
7 A. We've already said here in the records that
8 we supplemented it; 18 is Musafer Puscul.
9 Q. Who is 21?
10 A. Twenty-one is Fahrudin (Hasima) Ahmic.
11 Q. Just to clarify, the name in the parenthesis
12 between Ahmic and Fahrudin, what does that signify?
13 A. Between the brackets, it's the name of the
14 father.
15 Q. So the father of Fahrudin is a man by the
16 name of Hasim; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If we can now look down and
19 move the exhibit to show numbers 95 through 98, and
20 push it down -- yes, a little more.
21 Q. Who do we have there? Number 95 first.
22 A. Ninety-five is Naser (Sakib) Ahmic.
23 Q. And 96?
24 A. Edina Ahmic, Nasera Ahmic, and 98, I can't
25 see exactly, but again Naser Ahmic. That was when we
1 took over the bodies.
2 Q. And number 98 is unfortunately cut off on
3 this photograph, but if you could look at your list,
4 could you tell me that person's name, number 98?
5 A. Ninety-eight is Sejo (Naser) Ahmic, a
6 three-month-old child.
7 Q. Just one more name I would like you to point
8 out for us, if you can, and it's difficult. Number 38
9 on that list. If it could be moved so that we can see
10 number 38? A little farther down. Right there.
11 That's good.
12 A. Thirty-eight is Abdulah (Mehmed) Brko from
13 Visegrad, brought under number 23 of the HVO record.
14 Q. Can you see it on the list at the cemetery
15 now placed in front of you on the TV screen, number 38?
16 A. Yes. Thirty-eight says Abdulah (Mehmed)
17 Brko.
18 Q. Were all the bodies you received that day
19 from Ahmici or were they from other areas as well?
20 A. Not all were from Ahmici but an overwhelming
21 majority of them were. There were also bodies from the
22 area of Gacice, the area of Vitez, that is from
23 Kolonija, Stari Vitez, Rijeka, Donja Veceriska.
24 Q. Approximately how many bodies did you
25 calculate were from Ahmici and, of course,
1 understanding that many of the bodies could not be
2 identified either as to name or as to place, but to the
3 best that you could figure, how many bodies that you
4 received that day were from Ahmici or from the
5 immediate area of Ahmici?
6 A. An overwhelming majority, I should say, more
7 than 70, more than 80 bodies.
8 Q. Do you know where other bodies from Ahmici
9 were buried?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. Do you know whether all the bodies were found
12 in Ahmici?
13 A. No, I do not know that either because --
14 because of the operations with the HVO, I was in Stari
15 Vitez all the time, so that I had no information.
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Your Honour, this ends this
17 portion of his testimony. I have one area I would like
18 to get into that will take maybe five, ten minutes,
19 although it may be best to do that after lunch because
20 we are already over the break.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. We adjourn
22 now until 2.15.
23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.
24
25
1 --- On resuming at 2.18 p.m.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic, are you
3 better?
4 THE ACCUSED: Thank you, Your Honours, I'm
5 feeling better.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz?
7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I have no further questions
8 for this witness, Your Honour, on reconsideration,
9 although I do tender at this moment the Exhibits 305,
10 306, 307, 308, 309, 310, 311, and 312.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. But on 307A, I
12 noticed that there's an inconsistency with the original
13 in Bosniak. The date is 10th of March whereas in the
14 original it is, I think, 18th of March. I can see. I
15 mean, I think -- so which -- the 18th of March?
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: The exhibit in front of the
17 witness is dated -- and perhaps we can ask the witness
18 to give us the date of the actual exhibit in front of
19 you? That would be 307, if that is the exhibit.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: 307, yes. 307A is the 10th
21 of March which I think is wrong.
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think the translation was
23 taken from a different version of this exhibit, and so
24 that is the difference -- or explains the difference in
25 the dates.
1 Let me ask: Does the witness have Exhibit
2 307 in front of him now? Yes. And what is the date on
3 that exhibit on that list?
4 THE WITNESS: The 18th of March, 1994. The
5 18th of March.
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: And it's my understanding
7 that the translation we have is identical with the
8 exception of the date and a couple of instances where
9 he updated the list of dead persons, but I propose, and
10 perhaps it is a good idea, to submit this Exhibit 307
11 for another translation so that we can be assured that
12 we have exactly what's on that list.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. And also in the
14 translation we don't have the -- I mean, there are two
15 signatures at the end. We don't know who signed.
16 Probably one of them was the witness.
17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I can ask. I think I know
18 who signed them.
19 Q. But could you tell us who signed the list
20 that you have in front of you, 307?
21 A. Under 1, Vatres Ramo, and under 2, Dzidic
22 Ehes.
23 Q. And who are these two people?
24 A. They were from my team, from the team who was
25 with me at the burial and in the carrying out of this
1 task. They are members of the army, of the criminal --
2 they are criminal technicians.
3 Q. They were, in fact -- at least one of them
4 was on that videotape making a list of names, you could
5 see him writing on a piece of paper; is that right?
6 A. Under 1, Vatric Samo. He conducted -- he was
7 the head of the commission.
8 Q. Let me ask you, with the permission of the
9 Court, if I might? Can you explain how it came about
10 that the burial took place in April of '93 and the list
11 was not dated until '94?
12 JUDGE CASSESE: I was about to put the same
13 question.
14 A. When we were working on the burial, Stari
15 Vitez was under blockade, and we had the notes composed
16 by the commission. After liberation, we established
17 contact with the corps and then we did this on the 18th
18 of April, but I left Vitez in April that year. But
19 this is obviously a mistake, a typing error. It is a
20 typing error. Have I been clear?
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
23 Q. It's your recollection that this was typed in
24 April of '93, the 18th of April of '93; is that what
25 you're saying?
1 A. It can't be in April 1993. This -- this
2 document can't have been written then.
3 Q. So maybe I did not follow your explanation.
4 Could you explain it again? I'm sorry.
5 A. This was done after the cease-fire, on the
6 basis of the evidence on the day of the burial because
7 for the needs of the corps, we had to send them the
8 data. Stari Vitez was under blockade, and we can't
9 send the data, the documents, to the command of the
10 corps.
11 Q. Let me see if I understand what you're
12 saying. The notes that you took at the burial, based
13 on the HVO list, were made on April 28th, 1993, those
14 notes, but those notes were not transcribed into this
15 typewritten list until a later date, and that date is
16 reflected on that list; is that what you're saying?
17 A. Yes, that is so. Yes, yes. Because it was
18 hand-written. Those notes were hand-written.
19 Q. So when you see those people on the videotape
20 looking into the burial and writing on a piece of
21 paper, those are the hand-written notes you're talking
22 about; is that right?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. And those notes contain the positions of the
25 bodies in the ground and were also based on the HVO
1 list that you had with you that day; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then those hand-written notes were then
4 transcribed into this typewritten list that you have in
5 front of you and which was signed by the two team
6 members who were there?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel
10 Pavkovic?
11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
12 Ranko Radovic and myself will question this witness.
13 We have several questions.
14 MR. RADOVIC: I have shortened my questions
15 because some of the questions I wanted to put have been
16 put by the Prosecution. I'll follow my order.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
18 Q. You said today that you retired as a member
19 of the JNA?
20 A. No. I was pensioned from the secretariat for
21 internal affairs, from the police.
22 Q. When you gave the information to the
23 investigator of the International Court, why did you
24 say you were a teacher?
25 A. I am a teacher by profession.
1 Q. That is your education, but your profession
2 is a policeman. You were not retired from the Ministry
3 of the Interior?
4 A. I was retired as the deputy secretary for
5 Internal Affairs.
6 Q. However you take it, you are a member of the
7 Ministry of the Interior, if not a policeman.
8 A. I was wearing -- I was in civilian clothes.
9 Q. At the moment when you made that statement,
10 the testimony, were still active as a teacher?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Because it says here that at the time, during
13 the investigation, you were a teacher -- you were not a
14 teacher?
15 A. That is my profession.
16 Q. That is your -- you can be a lawyer and work
17 as a janitor.
18 A. My profession now is a pensioner and I was a
19 pensioner then.
20 Q. Since April 1990, when you joined the
21 headquarters of the Territorial Defence in Vitez, at
22 the time when the headquarters was Bosnian and had a
23 Bosnian and Croatian part, and then the Bosnians had
24 their own headquarters. What was your job? What was
25 your task?
1 A. I was the coordinator of units which were
2 sent to the frontlines.
3 Q. Didn't you engage in collecting information,
4 intelligence?
5 A. Every member of that unit gives information
6 but not professionally, I didn't do it in the course of
7 my job.
8 Q. You said to the investigator that before
9 1993, I gathered information, collected intelligence,
10 for our army. Every citizen has the duty -- that is
11 our slogan, Civil Defence, et cetera, but I'm
12 interested to know concretely whether your job was to
13 gather information, intelligence. So that was the
14 wrong statement.
15 In your headquarters -- don't mention the
16 name of the person -- was there a person who was the
17 head of security?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did the headquarters of the Territorial
20 Defence, whose member you were too, the officer of
21 security, did he give the information that dubious
22 things are happening and that a lot of things can
23 happen the next day?
24 A. He didn't give that to me. That wasn't his
25 duty. I said I was the coordinator in the
1 headquarters.
2 Q. On the -- from the 15th to the 16th of April,
3 did you sleep in the headquarters?
4 A. No, I slept in a private house. There was no
5 room there.
6 Q. The security officer said that because of the
7 danger that was threatening the town, all the members
8 of the headquarters had to sleep in the premises of the
9 headquarters. This didn't refer to you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Since you conducted this sad job of burying
12 the witnesses, why isn't your signature on this
13 document?
14 A. Because on the 4th of April, 1994, I left for
15 family reasons. I had to look after my young children.
16 Q. Where are the original documents which were
17 testified to the authenticity of the signatures?
18 A. They were with Vatres Ramo but I don't know
19 what happened to them later.
20 Q. Where could we get these documents now?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. The document that was sent to you by the HVO
23 with the dead bodies, where could it be?
24 A. It should be in the archives of the
25 headquarters.
1 Q. I will ask you now some things connected --
2 relating to the persons on this list. But before that,
3 I would like to hear why, in the introductory part of
4 the record, it says that this is a list of the killed
5 persons in the village of Ahmici, Veceriska, and Stari
6 Vitez. But you mentioned two other places?
7 A. In the list, we have Hercegovac, he is from
8 Gacice, there are persons from Donja Veceriska, but in
9 the preamble -- I don't know what the preamble says.
10 Q. And you said you didn't participate in the
11 writing of the document. Now we have to follow some
12 kind of order. Let us see which persons were from
13 Ahmici and which were not from Ahmici, in order to
14 arrive at the figure of persons killed who were from
15 Ahmici. I will not give you the names of the persons,
16 I'll not mention the name. You will just comment
17 whether the person is from Ahmici or not. I'll just
18 give you the numbers from the list.
19 Under number 11, there is an unknown older
20 man, the body is charred. It doesn't say where his
21 body was found. Do you know -- did you have any
22 information from where he came, number 11 on this list?
23 A. On this list, under number 11, it says
24 unknown older man, charred.
25 Q. I'm asking you whether you know whether he is
1 from Ahmici or not.
2 A. I want to tell you what data, what
3 information I have. He was brought under list 94 of
4 the HVO. The persons brought under that number were
5 from Ahmici, Ahmic Vehbija is under 93 of the HVO.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: If I may interrupt you?
7 Sorry, counsel. I apologise, counsel Radovic. We have
8 just realised that you are consulting a book. Could
9 you explain to us what this book is, notebook or ...
10 Because you're not reading from the list we received.
11 We would like to know what sort of notebook this is.
12 A. These are the notes made on the spot, on that
13 day, my own notes, the notes I made during the burial,
14 I copied from the HVO records the numbers without the
15 data, without the description. Now I have all of
16 these.
17 MR. RADOVIC:
18 Q. Look now, the persons who wrote this list and
19 who used your list, you said you didn't have it now,
20 but you said who could have it. According to this
21 list, you have number 11. Do you have any information
22 or any data about whether the body is from Ahmici or
23 from some other village?
24 A. I don't have this information.
25 Q. Number 19. Follow the list. A similar
1 situation. Tell me whether you have any knowledge
2 about whether this body is from Ahmici or from
3 somewhere else. Number 11 of this list.
4 A. The record of the HVO says unknown, NN.
5 Q. I just want to know whether you have any
6 information. You don't know about this person either.
7 Then the same situation is with numbers 27
8 and 28 of the list. Probably the same situation. Can
9 you tell us something about these numbers, these
10 bodies?
11 A. I can say "Yes" or "No" but I feel the need
12 to explain.
13 Q. I don't object to that. I just wanted to
14 simplify matters. I'm interested in knowing whether
15 there is any information about whether these persons
16 are from Ahmici or not. There is no doubt that they
17 are the victims. We are not trying here for the whole
18 Lasva Valley, but only for Ahmici. I would like to
19 know whether you have information that these persons
20 are from Ahmici.
21 A. If they are stated as unknown, we have no
22 information.
23 Q. Number 32. We have the first and last name,
24 but we don't know where the person comes from or came
25 from.
1 A. Thirty-two, Siljak, Adem, we know that he
2 lived in the Ahmici-Santici area.
3 Q. I didn't know that. How do you know that he
4 lived there? The name doesn't seem to fit Ahmici.
5 A. We have shorter last names too.
6 Q. Are you sure?
7 A. I'm sure.
8 Q. Thirty-three and 34. Again, two males,
9 unknown.
10 A. According to the information, the bodies that
11 were brought from number 1 to 5, from numbers 1 to 5 of
12 this list, we don't have the location --
13 Q. Don't give me your notes. You have to link
14 it to the numbers on this list. I'm asking about 33
15 and 34 on this list. We can't use the numbers from
16 your notes. We don't have that notebook.
17 A. The notebook doesn't matter. What matters is
18 the list.
19 Q. Tell me about 33 and 34.
20 A. If I had collected that information, I would
21 tell you.
22 Q. All right. Now then, we have 35, Muhamed
23 Neslanovic.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is he from Ahmici or not?
1 A. Yes. Donja Rovna.
2 Q. So the body came from Rovna. It states that
3 he was wearing a camouflage uniform and trousers and in
4 Croatian this is SNB, olive green, which is a military
5 uniform?
6 A. I don't know about the trousers, but the
7 olive green, that is a military uniform.
8 Q. Military socks were also found on the body.
9 Did a part of the soldiers of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
10 because there was a shortage of clothes, did they wear
11 JNA clothes?
12 A. The army didn't have enough clothes. These
13 military uniforms, when the JNA disintegrated, when
14 Slimenja was attacked, when the equipment was
15 confiscated, many people took these uniforms on their
16 own. This was robbery. This was looting. I don't
17 think this is related.
18 Q. Now we're at 36, Alic, Esref. Is he from
19 Ahmici or some other village? I see a place near
20 Zenica?
21 A. He's from Nadioci.
22 Q. Thirty-seven, unknown male, around 30. Could
23 you tell us something about that person?
24 A. The list says unknown, but since Sadika
25 Redzep is with him, I think that he is from Nadioci.
1 Q. Does the fact that he had a military yellow
2 belt and military socks have any significance?
3 A. I can't say that.
4 Q. We have Brko Abdulah from Visegrad. He was
5 probably a refugee in that area. Could you tell us
6 where he was located, where he was based? All these
7 people are from Nadioci. Can you say something about
8 that, Mehmed Brko, number 38?
9 A. Nadioci.
10 Q. Thirty-nine, you have a correction there.
11 Have you these corrections in your notes? Is this
12 person from Nadioci or from Ahmici?
13 A. Nadioci, Nadioci, which is the next village.
14 Q. Forty, Paco Fehim. He was also a refugee.
15 Was he based in Nadioci or in Ahmici, 40, number 40?
16 A. A refugee from Jajce.
17 Q. That's okay. But did he live in Ahmici or
18 Nadioci?
19 A. Ahmici.
20 Q. Forty-one, again an unknown male. Can you
21 say something more about that body?
22 A. I have nothing. My number is 19.
23 Q. You don't know whether he's from Ahmici or
24 somewhere else.
25 Then we have 42, this is a woman from -- the
1 list says that she's from Nadioci. Can you confirm it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Then 43 and 44, two charred bodies, males,
4 two males. Can you tell us whether they are from
5 Ahmici?
6 A. Ahmici-Santici.
7 Q. How do you know?
8 A. Because my notes say so.
9 Q. What are the grounds for your conclusion? It
10 is not enough -- this is black, you can say white.
11 A. The people who were working during the
12 burial, they knew where these people came from.
13 Q. We are talking about 43 and 44.
14 A. Sorry. This is my number 50. I don't have
15 any information on these.
16 Q. Are they from Ahmici or from some other
17 village?
18 A. I can't say that.
19 Q. You don't know? When I ask you something,
20 you have to say "Yes" or "No" clearly so that it can be
21 recorded.
22 Let us go on. Then we come to 45 in the
23 list, again an unknown male. The question is once
24 again whether you know if he comes from Ahmici or from
25 elsewhere.
1 A. I don't know. How am I supposed to say
2 that?
3 Q. Well, was his body found in Ahmici or
4 somewhere else?
5 A. How could I know if I was in Stari Vitez?
6 Q. Sir, if you don't know, you can say it.
7 A. Sometimes you can know by the name and the
8 surname where he comes from.
9 Q. So you do not know where this corpse under 45
10 came from. Listen, I'm not trying to pull your leg.
11 I'm simply trying to establish how many bodies came
12 from Ahmici.
13 So 46 is again an unknown man from Putis and
14 one could deduce from this that number 46 is not from
15 Ahmici, do we agree?
16 A. I do not know that.
17 Q. Why?
18 A. Because I cannot answer such questions. I
19 was in Stari Vitez and I really cannot make any guesses
20 or arbitrarily decide this.
21 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, we are checking
22 his list and facts in his list, so will you please ask
23 the witness to answer my questions? I think that I am
24 being very polite and simply asking questions.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic is right. I
1 mean, try to answer his questions, simply whether those
2 people are from Ahmici, according to your notes.
3 A. We compiled the list. When we knew that a
4 person came from Ahmici, we stated so. Where we did
5 not, I really cannot arbitrarily say "Yes" or "No".
6 MR. RADOVIC:
7 Q. Yes. But this list or whatever you call it
8 is not something written by you but on the basis of
9 your notes, and we simply have to see if this list,
10 which is compiled by third persons, not you who took
11 notes, did it in agreement with what you had noted
12 down.
13 A. No. We evidently do not understand one
14 another. In my notes, I have the numbers from the list
15 that I was given by the HVO, from 1 to 103. And in
16 these same HVO records under, shall we say 12, we have
17 a Croat, Vlado Topalovic, he was not brought to us.
18 And 39, it again says a Croat, so he wasn't brought to
19 us. Ninety-seven, a Croat. Ninety-eight, a Croat. I
20 have the HVO records. You still do not understand what
21 I'm saying.
22 Q. So you did not identify any dead bodies. You
23 said you did.
24 A. You can see me on this monitor.
25 Q. So why can't I ask you about those persons
1 who are Muslims, and who figure on this list. If it
2 doesn't say where these people come from, why couldn't
3 I ask you where these people came from, whether from
4 Ahmici or some other places? Does the record say that
5 they come from Ahmici? There are persons where we have
6 only the name and the last name and possibly the year
7 of birth.
8 A. Because at that time we did not know whether
9 they came from Ahmici or not.
10 Q. I'm asking you if you know it now?
11 A. No, because on the 10th of April, 1994, I
12 left the army.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we go on. May I say
14 that it probably would be very simple to ask the
15 witness to give us his notebook so we make a photocopy
16 and the photocopy could be given to the Defence counsel
17 and then he can check on this list, if the witness does
18 not mind handing the --
19 THE WITNESS: Why? I have nothing against
20 having it photocopied. I don't mind.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Excellent.
22 MR. RADOVIC: I shall be asking you two more
23 questions, of course after the Prosecution has made
24 their comments, but my questions will not be in the
25 same manner as before. I will ask you about two more
1 names which have nothing to do with this list, they
2 have to do with something else.
3 I believe my learned friend for the
4 Prosecution was going to say something, so perhaps we
5 shall wait for him?
6 Q. So, you are using the HVO list as your
7 principal document?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So here we talked a great deal about whether
10 there were any casualties among Muslim soldiers and we
11 then said that there were no casualties among Muslim
12 soldiers. Will you please then look at what it says by
13 the number 47, by the victim under 47?
14 JUDGE CASSESE: This is 47 in the list --
15 MR. RADOVIC: Forty-seven in the list, yes.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Not in the HVO list.
17 MR. RADOVIC: No.
18 Q. In your list?
19 A. Yes. I am looking at that list.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Sixty-nine on the HVO list.
21 MR. RADOVIC: I don't have the HVO list. I
22 don't have the HVO list. So I need to read number 47.
23 Q. Will you please do it?
24 A. Yes, but which record? Which list?
25 Q. The list that was given you today by the
1 Prosecutor and from the Bosnian text, not the English
2 text, from the Bosnian text in Bosnian language, will
3 you tell us what does it say about the dead body under
4 number 47?
5 A. NN, male, aged about 30, brought in under
6 number 69 of the HVO records of the 23rd April, '93.
7 The record says: male, 30 years of age, 180
8 centimetres tall, weighing 68 kilograms, hair black
9 and curly, camouflage uniform, military pullover, belt,
10 and rubber boots.
11 Q. Right. And what does it say then under 54,
12 the body under 54?
13 A. NN male, about 35 years of age, brought under
14 number 67 of the HVO records on the 23rd of April,
15 1993. The record says: male, 35 years, brown hair,
16 camouflage uniform, 177 centimetres, military socks,
17 boots with laces.
18 Q. I wanted simply to hear you say that he was
19 wearing complete military outfit.
20 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. I have no further
21 questions.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel
23 Pavkovic?
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
25 Q. Mr. Rehibic, my name is Petar Pavkovic and I
1 am counsel for the Defence.
2 I should like to clarify once and for all
3 this list that we were discussing, that we talked about
4 here, and you already gave some explanations.
5 Can we take it that this list of the 18th of
6 March, 1994, was compiled on the basis of your and
7 other people's notes made during the burial?
8 A. On the basis of my notes, no. No, my notes
9 were not used for it. It was done on the basis of the
10 notes of an inspector of the crime department, that is
11 those who examined the bodies and identified the
12 bodies, and that service is headed by Ramo Vatric, and
13 he was made responsible -- he was in charge of taking
14 notes and making the list, and I did it just for my own
15 sake, so I did it, this list of dead bodies.
16 Q. Today we saw the Prosecution Exhibit 312 and
17 in the forefront we saw a list of names on a placard,
18 on a panel which was a memorial plaque or something
19 like that, a commemorating table and we could see the
20 names of various persons, and today you gave us some
21 clarifications. So could you please tell us, if you
22 know, who did this panel with those names and when was
23 that done?
24 A. No, I can't, because I don't know it.
25 Q. Could you take the list which is before you,
1 and on page 2, under 18, read out what it says -- this
2 has been added in ballpoint pen.
3 A. Muzafer Puscul.
4 Q. But what does it say regarding number 23?
5 A. Sabahudin Mrkohja.
6 Q. What about 25?
7 A. You want me to answer?
8 Q. Yes, I'm asking you. Tell me.
9 A. Samija Mrkohja.
10 Q. Under 39?
11 A. Halib Pehlivanovic.
12 Q. Forty-two?
13 A. Sadika Pehlivanovic.
14 Q. Fifty-six?
15 A. Hajra, I guess, Ahmic.
16 Q. Do you know who wrote this?
17 A. This list I took from -- from the brigade.
18 Q. But do you know who wrote this?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. So you don't know either how they came up
21 with these names?
22 A. No, that is not quite true.
23 Q. Could you then explain to the Court how was
24 it that he came up with those names?
25 A. Under 18, on the basis of the description,
1 the age, features, trades, profession, place of birth,
2 job, and that is how he was --
3 Q. Yes -- no, let's wait. Who established it?
4 A. The commission.
5 Q. Which commission?
6 A. Well, in this particular case, the three of
7 us. At that time, after the burial, perhaps a couple
8 of days later. In a conversation -- you see, Vitez is
9 small. We knew people.
10 Q. Who else was on the commission?
11 A. Ramo Vatres, then the cameraman.
12 Q. So immediately after the burial, you
13 established that.
14 A. Well, we're talking about it, and on the
15 basis of facts, we assumed which persons could be in
16 question.
17 Q. But you said that Ramo Vatres made a list,
18 and that it was on the basis of his list that this list
19 was made. So how then did it come to pass that
20 subsequently, at a later date, this list be
21 supplemented with the name of Muzafer Puscul in
22 ballpoint because they didn't have specific facts as to
23 who that individual was?
24 A. Yes, and the memorial plaque at the cemetery
25 still has the original names, that is the names as were
1 established on the first day. No changes are made
2 unless they're 100 per cent sure.
3 Q. But this list was done a year later on the
4 18th of March, 1994. 1994. So you said, on the basis
5 of the list compiled by this Vatres, could you please
6 explain then how is it that these -- that this
7 information about the person under 18 were not included
8 immediately? Here he was described as an unknown man,
9 it said NN man, and then it was added in ballpoint that
10 it was Muzafer Puscul?
11 A. Well, I told you that on the 24th of April,
12 1990 (sic), I left Stari Vitez. The command was
13 submitted the original list of the first day when the
14 bodies were received. Nothing could be changed.
15 Q. In other words, we can then conclude that you
16 do not know how this information was added.
17 A. We evidently are talking at cross-purposes.
18 Q. No, we are not. I mean, I don't know what
19 you don't understand because it is important to clarify
20 this.
21 A. This is something that is very interesting.
22 To this day, information is collected so as to
23 establish their identity, to have data which shall be
24 valid and true, so there may be some error. Until it
25 is amended, until it is rectified on the panel, on that
1 memorial plaque, then it's --
2 Q. So you think that what it says on the panel,
3 that is the thing which is trustworthy?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But why did it then say that the NN male
6 person under 18 is Muzafer Puscul, even on the panel?
7 A. Because the number of the body, the body
8 buried under that number in that grave, and the
9 information that we have, we assume, and on the basis
10 of the description that went along with the body, that
11 was it.
12 Q. I shall nevertheless go back to what you just
13 said. Immediately, that is, those two or three days
14 when you said after the burial, the three of you went
15 through your notes, and on the basis of the
16 descriptions in those notes, you arrived at the
17 conclusion that it was Muzafer Puscul.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All these notes you submitted to whatever
20 authority and, a year later, this list was drawn up.
21 Why is it then that we do not have a Muzafer Puscul
22 written in this list and instead have an unknown male?
23 A. I have just said that to the relevant
24 commander we submitted the original list from the
25 burial.
1 Q. So you cannot really explain who was Muzafer
2 Puscul in ballpoint above number 18?
3 A. You want me to ...
4 Q. Yes, you.
5 A. Well, I didn't.
6 Q. So how do you know that that person NN,
7 unknown man under 18, is Muzafer Puscul?
8 A. On the basis of information that goes along
9 with this identity. There is no other man in Vitez.
10 But in this list.
11 Q. So how could you confirm that here, on this
12 panel, under 18, is the same person?
13 A. Because it corresponds with the information
14 that came with the body.
15 Q. No. This was added. Wouldn't you agree with
16 me?
17 A. No.
18 Q. But you see the same thing as I do, that
19 something was added, that this was written
20 additionally. And that would be --
21 A. Yes, it was, and there would be many things
22 that would be added to this.
23 Q. Yes, but it was added a year later. It
24 wasn't added before 18th of March, 1994. It was added
25 afterwards. And there would be even further additions.
1 Thank you very much. I don't think we can
2 manage this. I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you. I do not
5 have many questions.
6 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
7 Q. But let us look at these corrections, these
8 amendments to the list.
9 Will you please look at 25? Twenty-five,
10 would you please read it, 25?
11 A. With or without the correction?
12 Q. Without.
13 A. Unknown man, charred, brought to cemetery
14 under number 62 of the HVO record of the 22nd of April,
15 1993. The record reads: male charred body found in
16 the house of Mustafa Ahmic.
17 Q. And what does it say above? What is the name
18 above?
19 A. Samir Mrkohja.
20 Q. But a moment ago you said it was Samir. You
21 said a husband and a wife? Didn't you say that?
22 That's why we looked at it. You said that it was
23 Sabahudin Mrkohja and his wife?
24 A. No, it's Samir.
25 Q. Samir. So what's the relationship between
1 them? You said they were a couple, husband and wife,
2 so how do you know that they were together in the same
3 house?
4 A. Ahmic, Mustafa Ahmic, had a sister married in
5 Ojice in the Sava valley and also married from Karaula,
6 they were refugees in his home, and they were staying
7 in that house, and hence the assumption.
8 Q. I see. Perhaps you -- it was a slip of the
9 tongue on your part and you said they were husband and
10 wife, and we didn't realise how could they be.
11 Besides, this is a list of people who were --
12 who died in Vitez and in places around Vitez on the
13 16th; is that so?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There is no other list, there are no other
16 mass graves, there are no errors -- rather, there were
17 no errors in the procedure, that is, those are people
18 who died in Vitez and surroundings on the 16th; isn't
19 that so? And that is the number established by the
20 Muslim side, isn't it?
21 A. That is the number which was brought to Stari
22 Vitez. I don't know anything else.
23 Q. There is no other mass grave in Vitez?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. This number from 99 -- of 99 is, in fact, the
1 definitive figure after Sakib Ahmic's family and Tahir
2 Rogohjic were then buried there at a later date and
3 this completes the list; isn't that so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it also says that he was killed later?
6 JUDGE MAY: You put, Ms. Glumac, the
7 definitive figure. You mean the definitive figure for
8 these graves or this grave.
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, for this grave.
10 Q. So in -- that is 94 of them were buried on
11 the 28th and subsequently five persons more were buried
12 there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Right. As for other casualties in Vitez, you
15 don't think there are any, you don't know about other
16 graves. We are talking about the 16th.
17 A. No, I don't know.
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: All right. Thank you
19 very much.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Moskowitz?
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Just a few questions, Your
22 Honour, if I may?
23 Re-examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
24 Q. Just to clarify things, Mr. Rehibic.
25 Essentially this list before us is the list of names
1 and identities that you received from the HVO when you
2 received that package, or those trucks full of
3 corpses. These were compiled by the HVO and you just
4 simply transferred them to another list with different
5 numbers so you could identify where those bodies were
6 buried in the ground; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So these identifications were really made by
9 the HVO?
10 A. All that is written here, yes, those
11 identified persons, that was written by the HVO.
12 Q. After receiving that list and those bodies,
13 further attempts were made to provide additional
14 identification for unknown bodies in order to provide
15 some closure for the family members; is that right?
16 A. Well, that is an ongoing task, to this day.
17 Information is gathered so that NN, that is unknown
18 persons, could be identified, attached a name on the
19 basis of information or facts available, where they
20 lived and various information collected in the field.
21 Q. It's an unfinished task. The job continues
22 to try to identify the people that were buried there?
23 A. Yes, quite. It is a job which still goes
24 on. It is something that continues.
25 Q. And so let's look at number 18. Again, you
1 had received certain information about this particular
2 corpse. In addition to the fact that it was an unknown
3 male, you received other information, including some
4 information from an Ante Covic; is that right?
5 A. Yes, about some people.
6 Q. Specifically about number 18.
7 A. Ante Covic says that the victim came from
8 Kakanj because the notes, the records, are known, and
9 that he was a technician and that he worked for
10 Impregnacija and that he was the son-in-law of Sakib
11 Ahmic. And on the basis of this information, I think I
12 can affirm with certainty that the casualty, that the
13 victim is Muzafer Puscul.
14 Q. So it's a simple matter of putting two and
15 two together and coming up with four; is that right?
16 A. Quite so.
17 Q. Now, you were asked about number 33, and I
18 wanted to draw your attention to that for a moment.
19 Take a look at number 33 and the information you
20 received about where those bodies were found. Does it
21 indicate where -- not in what village but in front of
22 what home or structure?
23 A. The record says under 33, NN male, charred,
24 brought under number 44 of the HVO record of the 21st
25 of April, 1993. Found in Mujo Dedic's shed. And the
1 record says in Mujo Dedic's shed, found three charred
2 bodies: a male charred corpse, male charred person,
3 and male charred body, all three without any signs of
4 identity and no other information, and each one of them
5 had their number under which they were brought.
6 Q. Do you happen to know where Mujo Dedic's shed
7 is located?
8 A. Well, really. Ahmici. No, not really.
9 Q. So it would depend on where Mujo Dedic's shed
10 was located for you to determine where, in fact, these
11 bodies were found; is that right?
12 A. Mujo Dedic -- yes, he lives in Ahmici.
13 Q. You know that for a fact, that he lives in
14 Ahmici, Mujo Dedic, or lived?
15 A. It's a fact.
16 Q. You were also asked about two bodies that
17 appeared to be dressed in a uniform, or in uniforms,
18 and if I recall correctly in your direct testimony you
19 stated that there were a couple of bodies found with
20 uniforms on.
21 Let's look at those two, number 47.
22 A. And 54, isn't it?
23 Q. And 54.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Your list, which is based on the HVO
1 identification list, does your list indicate in which
2 village either of these two bodies were found?
3 A. According to the information which is in the
4 notes, which is in the list, no, we don't see it here.
5 MR. RADOVIC: Excuse me for interrupting
6 you. I should merely like to draw to your attention
7 that in the case of these unknown men under 47, it is
8 added in handwriting (redacted), that is
9 (redacted), but my learned friend is
10 following the English text so ...
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, that's correct.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
15 Q. And so that was an indication of an attempt
16 to continue to identify bodies so that the relatives
17 could know where they were and who they were?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. With respect to 47, do you know where you
20 obtained that information to identify that body?
21 A. This information I learnt from talking to
22 people. From their description, it was deduced that
23 this was so and so.
24 Q. Were you able to identify number 54?
25 A. At that point, when I was in Vitez, I
1 couldn't. I didn't.
2 Q. You were also asked as to whether this was a
3 complete list as to all bodies found. Is there a
4 listing in this list for Fata Ahmic -- excuse me, Fata
5 Pezer?
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, the
8 problem is that we can't answer this question because
9 there are unknown persons marked as NN. This can be
10 identified only by the family. We can't say that --
11 she is not on the list since we have NN, "unknown."
12 The witness can't answer this question. The
13 Prosecution could have established it through other
14 means and ways.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. You're right. On the
16 other hand, I think Mr. Moskowitz simply asked whether
17 this name was on the list. I agree with you that it
18 may not be on the list and still be covered by NN.
19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: The body may be there --
20 JUDGE CASSESE: The body may be there but --
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: -- but the name, is the
22 question. Is the name there?
23 JUDGE CASSESE: But I think Counsel
24 Slokovic-Glumac is right in saying that this is not
25 decisive, because although the name may not be there,
1 the body is probably in the grave.
2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: But I might add that as we've
3 had testimony that the whereabouts of this person is
4 unknown to the relatives, it is probative to point out
5 that, in fact, that is true. Her identity is unknown.
6 Whether she is, in fact, buried in Stari Vitez or
7 somewhere else, the family does not know where she is.
8 She is not on this list, and therefore, they have no
9 idea where she is.
10 A. She is not on the list.
11 Q. I just want to clarify one last thing. This
12 list does not contain, as far as you know, does it, the
13 entire list of people who were killed in Ahmici on
14 April 16, 1993, does it?
15 A. Yes, that is correct. It doesn't contain all
16 the names.
17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I would like to
19 ask the witness to clarify one or two points about his
20 notebook. I understand this is your notebook where you
21 copied from the HVO list the various entries.
22 A. This -- I didn't copy the notes, I -- in my
23 notebook --
24 JUDGE CASSESE: The HVO list, you had the HVO
25 list, and I thought you said that you prepared a list
1 in your own notebook on the basis of that HVO list,
2 identification list, according to -- and also the
3 numbering took up the numbering of the HVO list; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's what I said. If you permit me?
6 Your Honours, let me explain.
7 In my notebook, I didn't write the data on
8 the identification, I just wrote the first and last
9 names and the number which tallies with the numbers of
10 the HVO list, and on the HVO list, from 1 to 5, we have
11 nothing. There is nothing, just the numbers 1, 2, 3,
12 4, 5. No other data. Number 6, the H -- Zlotrg
13 Nedim. On the H -- Zlotrg Mira, 7. Varupa Midhat, 8.
14 Tunovic Arifa, et cetera.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Then tell me, what have you
16 got on that list under number 53? Could you read what
17 is next to number 53?
18 A. Under number 53, we just had the ordinal
19 number 53, nothing else.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: And what about number 67?
21 A. Under number 67, NN, "unknown," that is,
22 without any description.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Number 69?
24 A. Sixty-nine. It said Pjanic Muamer, Muamer
25 Pjanic.
1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think what's happening,
2 Your Honour, he's got a list by number of HVO, and it's
3 a different numbering than the list you have in front
4 of you. The numbering system was changed --
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Because I have under 47 of
6 the list, typewritten list, brought as number 69 on the
7 HVO list.
8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I see. Yes.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: So I'm asking, what is under
10 69 on the HVO list?
11 A. Number 69, HVO, is Muamer Pjanic.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: So it does not match because
13 here, under 47 in the typewritten list, we have unknown
14 male aged about 30.
15 So I think it's important now for the witness
16 to hand over his notebook to the registry so that
17 maybe, with the assistance of the Prosecution and the
18 Defence, photocopies -- I mean, to identify the various
19 relevant pages, photocopies are made.
20 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
21 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Relating to this, we do
22 have the list and we will submit it as evidence, and
23 that's why we should compare all the documents. This
24 was the list made by the civilian defence when the
25 bodies were collected. We should see what the witness
1 has, what the list of ours is, how they compare, in
2 order to determine the localities, the sites where the
3 bodies were found. This is indispensable, therefore.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: I see that the Prosecution is
5 agreeable.
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Absolutely, Your Honour. I
7 would only ask, to preserve his privacy with regard to
8 his notebook, that only those pages that we need in
9 order to verify this list be actually copied and
10 distributed. I think the notebook has other things in
11 that, if I'm not mistaken.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. But the witness maybe
13 would be so kind as to indicate the relevant pages, the
14 pages covering the list of the HVO list, and then he
15 will show his notebook to the registry, but I think
16 probably one person from each side should be present,
17 without, of course, being too inquisitive, looking into
18 matters which may be covered by privacy, but he should
19 -- I think that the witness does not mind. It would
20 be of great importance for the Court to have that list
21 - I am referring to the HVO list - to make comparisons
22 with the list which the Defence is going to produce.
23 Also, because as I said, we have just come across an
24 inconsistency.
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I also note that there appear
1 to be more than one HVO list from different dates,
2 April 23rd, April 20th, April 24th. So that is also
3 another bit of a mystery.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
5 THE WITNESS: If you permit me, Your Honours,
6 I would add an explanation? It is correct that there
7 are contradictions and inconsistencies. On page 68 of
8 the HVO record, Ibrahim Karic. It says Ibrahim Karic.
9 He is alive. In another case we have a living person,
10 number 42, Amir Ahmic. He is alive. And the record
11 listed him as dead. That's why the HVO number 103 --
12 and we received only 96 bodies. And that's the reason
13 for the difference in the numbers.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, thank you. I think
15 there is no objection to the witness being released?
16 Thank you, Mr. Rehibic, for testifying. You
17 may now be released.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 JUDGE CASSESE: The notebook, if you don't
21 mind giving the notebook to the ...
22 We can break now for tea or coffee and maybe
23 resume in fifteen minutes? Twenty minutes. Twenty
24 minutes. So we can start with your next witness.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 3.50 p.m.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz?
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Your Honour, to inform the
4 Court, the relevant parts of the notes have been copied
5 or are in the process now of being copied, and it
6 occurred, I think, both to me and to Defence counsel
7 that it might be useful to have that witness go over
8 his notes with the Court and explain what is in those
9 notes because it's not, I think, immediately apparent
10 what those notes mean and where that information came
11 from, but, of course, I would leave that up to the
12 Court's discretion, if the Court thinks that is a good
13 idea, and perhaps turn to Defence counsel to see if
14 they think so.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Counsel Pavkovic? May
16 I suggest that then we give the Defence counsel some
17 time so we could ask the witness to come back tomorrow
18 morning so that you have the evening to go through the
19 various notes and we go on with the next witness. When
20 he comes back, of course, I think this will not take
21 too much time. This must be a matter of a few minutes.
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I wanted to ask
23 something else. The Defence has -- it is not clear to
24 the Defence whether the Prosecutor -- whether this has
25 been entered into the evidence. This is the document
1 of the 18th of March, 1994, number 307. We don't know
2 whether this has been accepted as evidence.
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: It has been offered into
4 evidence and I think accepted into evidence, unless
5 there is a reconsideration.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: No. I thought there was no
7 objection from the Defence.
8 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, true, but
9 later, in the examination of the witness, we saw that
10 the witness couldn't say who wrote it and when he wrote
11 it in ballpoint over 23, 25, et cetera, and 56, and
12 therefore, in that part, the Defence thinks that we
13 cannot accept the content of the document as evidence,
14 as part of the evidence.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Why? You may not accept
16 the -- I mean, the handwriting, that somebody put in a
17 few names, pencilled in a few names, but the exhibit as
18 such I think it's acceptable, can be admitted, subject
19 to your reservations concerning those particular
20 names. I agree with you that we don't know who wrote
21 in those names, but ...
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Of course we don't know who
23 wrote it, nor when he wrote it. It is essential that
24 you saw from the examination that the Prosecution pays
25 great attention to that. We want to point out that
1 this cannot be admitted.
2 Furthermore, what is written in ballpoint was
3 done only in the Bosnian version, that is, in the
4 original, and not in the English transcript. This is
5 another reason why we shouldn't admit it.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. It is admitted into
7 evidence and we will take into account, of course, your
8 reservations. It is not the final list and, in the
9 end, we will verify, compare the various lists, and we
10 will make a finding.
11 So it is admitted into evidence, both 307 and
12 307A, and, of course, we are aware that on 307A, the
13 hand-written names are not reproduced, and we will come
14 back later on to this matter of the notes taken by the
15 witness in his notebook.
16 Do you agree that we should move on to our
17 next witness and maybe tomorrow morning we will come
18 back to the present witness?
19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
21 (The witness entered court)
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. Could you
23 please stand and would you please make the solemn
24 declaration?
25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
2 truth.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
4 WITNESS: EDIB ZLOTRG
5 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
6 Q. Can we begin by having you give us your name
7 and your date of birth?
8 A. Edib Zlotrg, born on the 21st of October,
9 1953.
10 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, could you tell us what your
11 profession is?
12 A. I'm a criminal technician.
13 Q. Where do you perform that job?
14 A. At the police station at Vitez.
15 Q. Now, do you know Vlado Santic?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. How long have you known Vlado Santic?
18 A. Since 1974.
19 Q. How did your relationship with Vlado Santic
20 begin? How did you begin to know each other?
21 A. When he came to my street in Vitez.
22 Q. So you were, in fact, neighbours or you began
23 to become acquainted as neighbours in 1974?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you continue that relationship with Vlado
1 Santic up until 1993, and even beyond?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How would you characterise your friendship
4 with Vlado Santic?
5 A. We were friends. We visited each other's
6 houses.
7 Q. Were you close friends?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How often would you see each other over the
10 years?
11 A. Every day.
12 Q. In 1979, did you and Vlado Santic move into a
13 different apartment building?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us how your apartments were
16 situated?
17 A. We lived in Marsala Tita Street, 82.
18 Mr. Santic's apartment was number 41, and mine, 42. He
19 lived in a one-room apartment and myself in a
20 three-room flat, next door to him.
21 Q. And did your family and the Santic family
22 socialise?
23 A. Yes. We drank coffee together. We had
24 coffee together.
25 Q. Did you do anything else together? Did you
1 see each other on a frequent occasion?
2 A. Yes. Soon after that, we worked together.
3 Q. Now, in 1984 and 1985, did Vlado Santic move
4 again?
5 A. Yes, he did. He moved to the building next
6 door -- to the next house.
7 Q. And what else was located in that building
8 next door?
9 A. A chess club.
10 Q. After Vlado Santic moved to another building,
11 did you continue to speak to him and socialise with
12 Vlado Santic?
13 A. Yes, we were together at work too.
14 Q. What kind of work did Vlado Santic do at that
15 time?
16 A. He was assistant commander of the police
17 station and he later worked as inspector in the
18 criminal department.
19 Q. When did you join the police department?
20 A. In 1986.
21 Q. What was your function or duties in 1986 when
22 you joined the police department?
23 A. I was the head of the materials and equipment
24 department.
25 Q. At what point did you become a criminal
1 technician, or forensic technician?
2 A. At the beginning of 1992.
3 Q. Was this -- were you assigned to the same
4 police department as Vlado Santic?
5 A. Yes. We shared the office.
6 Q. So you would see each other and work with
7 each other every day; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, at that time, when you knew him back in
10 the 1980s and the early 1990s, how would you
11 characterise Vlado Santic's work as a police officer
12 and as an inspector?
13 A. He was conscientious.
14 Q. Did he follow the rules pretty well?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now I want to direct your attention to May of
17 1992, and specifically to the killing of a person
18 called Trako Samir. Do you remember that case?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Where was Trako Samir killed?
21 A. According to colleagues who did the first
22 investigation, in the hotel, in Vitez.
23 Q. And who was in charge of that investigation;
24 do you know?
25 A. Vladimir Santic, and I was to be there as the
1 technician on duty.
2 Q. Was the investigation of the killing of Trako
3 Samir at the Hotel Vitez carried out according to the
4 rules of procedure as you understood them back then?
5 A. No.
6 Q. What happened? Why wasn't it? I mean, what
7 was not done or what was done that should not have been
8 done?
9 A. Under the orders of the then commander of the
10 police station, Mr. Skopljak, Frano Sucic as the
11 forensic technician was called in instead of me, and
12 Vlado Santic and Frano Sucic did the on-site
13 investigation without the presence of the judge and the
14 prosecutor. We went to see the scene of the crime only
15 the next day when the judge from Travnik came -- I
16 can't remember his name, and there were also present
17 Santic and Sucic and Mr. Fran Pihjo represented the
18 army and Salem Topcic and myself. The scene of the
19 crime had been tampered with, the hotel had been
20 cleaned, there were no other traces of blood, of
21 anything, when we arrived in the morning, so that we
22 could not really do what was necessary, although
23 Mr. Santic was well aware that the place had to be
24 ensured secured until the arrival of the judge.
25 Q. And the victim of this murder, Trako Samir,
1 what ethnic group did he belong to?
2 A. Muslim.
3 Q. Was anyone ever, as far as you know, arrested
4 or prosecuted for that crime?
5 A. No, as far as I know.
6 Q. During this time period, did you notice
7 whether Vlado Santic took to wearing a uniform?
8 A. On several occasions, he came to work wearing
9 the HVO uniform, the camouflage one.
10 Q. How do you know it was an HVO uniform?
11 A. He had the insignia on his sleeve.
12 Q. HVO patch?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You mentioned Pero Skopljak. Did you notice
15 whether, while you were at the police station during
16 those days, whether there was some kind of relationship
17 between Pero Skopljak and Vlado Santic?
18 A. Yes. Vlado Santic was the confidant of Pero
19 Skopljak.
20 Q. And who was Pero Skopljak?
21 A. The head of the station, that is, of the
22 police station at the time.
23 Q. And what political party was he?
24 A. HDZ.
25 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to a
1 little later in the year of '92, the 20th of November,
2 1992. Do you recall being arrested on that day?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. Would you tell us very briefly what the
5 circumstances of that arrest were?
6 A. The night before that, two members of the
7 army were killed on the road to Kruscica, and because
8 of the situation in the field, we had agreed with the
9 command of the Military Police, of the brigade police,
10 Marijan Jukic and the head of the civilian criminal
11 investigation police of HZ, that is Herceg-Bosna, that
12 is Miro Lazarovic, having also consulted the military
13 judge and the military prosecutor in Zenica, not to do
14 the investigation on site that night but to postpone it
15 for the 20th of November, 9.00 in the morning.
16 On the 20th of November, at 9.00 in the
17 morning, I waited for the investigating team from
18 Zenica to arrive. I was waiting for them in front of
19 the police station in Vitez, and on that occasion,
20 Poljskic Enes, the inspector from Zenica and I went to
21 the Territorial Defence headquarters to get the
22 particulars for those two people, that is killed and
23 severely wounded members of the army. There we were --
24 driver of the official vehicle of the Territorial
25 Defence staff, and we were also accompanied by Ramo
1 Vatres, the inspector of the criminal investigation --
2 Military Police, that is department of the army of
3 B and H, and in front of the hotel by the petrol
4 station we were stopped by the Military Police of the
5 Croatian Defence Council who forced us to get out of
6 the car. When I tried to explain to a policeman that
7 we are on this investigation team, it all had been
8 agreed with his superiors to let us through, he
9 uncocked his rifle and with his butt he pushed me
10 towards the hotel.
11 Q. That would be the Hotel Vitez that you went
12 to?
13 A. Yes, yes. The Hotel Vitez, yes.
14 Q. By the way, were you in a uniform at that
15 time?
16 A. No, none of us was wearing a uniform with the
17 exception of the driver.
18 Q. What happened at the Hotel Vitez when you
19 were taken there under arrest?
20 A. When they brought us into the hotel, they
21 left us in the passage, in the corridor, and we had to
22 wait. And after a while, Mr. Santic came out wearing a
23 camouflage uniform, and when the inspector of the
24 Military Police from the criminal investigation of the
25 Military Police in Zenica asked what was the matter, he
1 said he did not know, and then I said that we were a
2 part of the investigation team and that up there in the
3 field, the judge and the rest of the team were waiting
4 for us so that we could proceed with the investigation.
5 Vlado said he was going to see about what he
6 could do.
7 Some 15 or 20 minutes later, he returned,
8 returned the pistol to Enes Poljskic, gave us the keys
9 and told us we were free to go. And the military
10 policeman then saw us to the official vehicle of the
11 B and H army.
12 Q. Based on what you saw that day at the Hotel
13 Vitez, who was in charge of the Military Police
14 officers that had you under arrest that day?
15 A. I do not know who was in charge, but since
16 the policemen were carrying out the orders of Vlado
17 Santic, I guess I should assume that he was in some
18 position of command, but what he was doing, I don't
19 know.
20 Q. Subsequent to that, did you receive
21 information about the position that Vlado Santic had
22 with respect to the Military Police?
23 A. Yes. I learned that he was the commander of
24 a Military Police unit, regional Military Police.
25 Q. Do you know which company he commanded?
1 A. I didn't know then. Subsequently I did learn
2 that it was Company 1 of the 4th regiment because they
3 were the only ones who were stationed in Vitez.
4 Q. Did you come to know where this 1st Company
5 was stationed specifically, in what building?
6 A. One platoon was in the Bungalow in Nadioci.
7 Q. Now I want to draw your attention to the
8 first part of 1993, and specifically again to the case
9 involving Mr. Salkic. Do you remember that
10 investigation?
11 A. Yes. It was in early February 1993.
12 Q. Did you respond to the scene of that crime?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. Where was the scene of the crime?
15 A. In Nadioci.
16 Q. What did you see when you arrived at the
17 scene, and what did you learn?
18 A. When we arrived at the scene, that is, the
19 investigation team, the investigating team of the
20 Military Police of the Croatian Defence Council was
21 leaving the site, and my colleague, Ilija Marjanovic
22 told me on that occasion that the murder had been
23 committed by Cicko and that he was in the military
24 prison. I don't remember if he mentioned Kaonik or
25 something else.
1 When we arrived at the site, we only found
2 blood in the passage near the entrance door, and in the
3 living room, on the couch, there was Salkic's body, and
4 it was beheaded and a part of the neck was missing. On
5 the opposite wall, the wall opposite to the entrance
6 door had all been destroyed by an explosion and the
7 roof had caved in, and there were bloodstains all over
8 the walls and the ceiling.
9 Q. Did you interview any eyewitnesses to the
10 crime, and if so, what did you learn about how this
11 happened?
12 A. During the night hours, Cicko came to the
13 door of the house belonging to the Salkic family, and
14 when Esad opened the door, according to eyewitnesses,
15 he fired three shots from the rifle, aiming at the
16 chest, and Esad Salkic must have died on the spot from
17 these wounds. Near the door at this place we found
18 bloodstains.
19 Then eyewitnesses said that Cicko had carried
20 it into the living room and put him on the couch and
21 that after that, he mined the house, and due to the
22 mine, the house was demolished.
23 Q. Could you tell us who Cicko is?
24 A. Miroslav Bralo, nicknamed Cicko, member of
25 the Croatian Defence Council.
1 Q. And I believe you indicated that the
2 investigators from the HVO told you that Mr. Bralo had
3 been arrested for this crime, and you didn't know the
4 name of the gaol that he was taken to, but could you
5 tell us whether this was a civil gaol or Military
6 Police gaol that he was taken to, as far as you
7 remember?
8 A. Military Police.
9 Q. Had you come to learn from any of these
10 eyewitnesses how the body of Mr. Salkic was mutilated?
11 I believe you indicated that the head was missing and
12 part of the neck.
13 A. Nobody saw that, and it is very likely that
14 it happened due to the explosion.
15 Q. Now I want to draw your attention to April
16 26, 1993. This is days after the attacks in the Lasva
17 Valley. Were you arrested at that time and, if so,
18 where were you placed?
19 A. Yes, I was in the cinema hall in Vitez.
20 Q. And on that day, were you taken somewhere?
21 A. Yes. That night, Zlatko Nakic, a member of
22 the Military Police of the Croatian Defence Council,
23 sometime around 10.00 or 11.00 in the evening, woke we
24 up and took me out into the lobby of the cinema, and we
25 were about ten of us, and a list was made of our
1 names. They then took us to the Bungalow.
2 Q. How were you taken to the Bungalow?
3 A. In a van, TAM, a closed one, a closed van,
4 T-A-M van.
5 Q. Could you see outside as you were driving
6 towards the Bungalow?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And what happened when you arrived at the
9 Bungalow?
10 A. We reached the parking lot of the Bungalow,
11 then the driver and assistant driver ordered us to get
12 out of the van, to put our hands up behind our heads,
13 to turn -- to face the van and to squat.
14 Q. How long were you forced to hold that
15 position, squatting near the van?
16 A. About an hour.
17 Q. How close were you to the Bungalow while you
18 were squatting next to the van?
19 A. Some 10 metres perhaps.
20 Q. And while you were in that position near the
21 Bungalow, did you hear any voices you recognised?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Whose voice did you hear?
24 A. Vladimir Santic's.
25 Q. Over what period of time did you hear that
1 voice?
2 A. It could have been sometime between 10.30
3 until 12.30, perhaps a little later, but thereabouts.
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If the witness could be shown
5 P119, please?
6 Q. Would you look at this photograph which is
7 119, Exhibit 119, and tell us what that shows?
8 A. It has the building of the Bungalow and it is
9 taken from the road, from road E5.
10 Q. Does this picture show an area where you were
11 that day on April 26 when you heard the voice of Vlado
12 Santic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you take the pointer next to you and --
15 don't point on the TV monitor but point on the picture
16 -- show us where you recall being when you were
17 listening to that voice.
18 A. Between the Bungalow and this van here, a
19 little higher up, to the right.
20 Q. And when you were in that position and
21 listening to Vlado Santic's voice, did you hear his
22 voice witness or more than once?
23 A. More than once.
24 Q. How can you be sure that was the voice of
25 Vlado Santic?
1 A. I know him very well indeed and I couldn't be
2 mistaken about that.
3 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that that was
4 the voice of your old friend, Vlado Santic?
5 A. None.
6 Q. Where were you taken after that; do you
7 remember?
8 A. That night they took us to Kaonik.
9 Q. What were you supposed to do or required to
10 do at Kaonik or in the area of Kaonik?
11 A. We only spent the night there, not in the
12 military prison but in the hangar which was above the
13 military prison.
14 Q. And then the next day, where were you taken
15 and what did you do?
16 A. The next day, they took us to the area of
17 Kratine.
18 Q. What did you do there?
19 A. We dug trenches.
20 Q. Who was in charge of that operation?
21 A. Miroslav Bralo, Cicko, was the commander in
22 the area of responsibility of -- that is the area of
23 Kratine.
24 Q. Did you see Miroslav Bralo in Kratine while
25 you were digging trenches?
1 A. Yes, I did, several times.
2 Q. Is that the same Miroslav Bralo who you had
3 been told had been sent to gaol for the killing of
4 Mr. Salkic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. While you were there, did you see any
7 soldiers with any kind of communication devices?
8 A. Yes. Members of the Military Police used to
9 come up there.
10 Q. What sort of communication devices did you
11 see them with?
12 A. Well, they had Motorolas, but the make, I
13 don't know which make it was.
14 Q. At one point, could you overhear anybody
15 speaking on one of those Motorolas or walkie-talkies?
16 A. Yes, I did hear when they communicated with
17 Mr. Santic.
18 Q. You say "when they communicated with
19 Mr. Santic." How do you know they were communicating
20 with Mr. Santic?
21 A. Because I know him very well and I've heard
22 his voice over various means of communication.
23 Q. Did you hear his voice on that occasion on
24 the walkie-talkie?
25 A. I did.
1 Q. Do you recall what the occasion was that
2 required communication with Mr. Santic on a
3 walkie-talkie? What had been going on at Kratine?
4 A. They contacted Vladimir Santic to get further
5 orders, to get instructions for work.
6 Q. You mentioned Cicko was in charge. Did he
7 threaten you in any way?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What do you recall about that?
10 A. He first made some ten of us make the sign of
11 the cross, and a gypsy could not do it properly and
12 then Cicko took an axe and came with it above his head,
13 turned the blunt side of the axe and told him that
14 unless he made the proper sign of a cross, that he
15 would kill him. And then this Romany fortunately
16 managed to make the proper sign of the cross, and Cicko
17 then made him repeat it ten times, evidently in the
18 hope that he would make a mistake and so that he would
19 kill him, but he always made the sign of the cross
20 properly.
21 Then he told us, if any one of us escaped,
22 that he would kill us all. So that one time, one of us
23 was digging a trench a little bit further away, and at
24 twilight, when they brought us to that house where his
25 headquarters were, that fellow was missing, and he told
1 us, unless he turns up within an hour, that he would
2 liquidate us all. However, they brought in this fellow
3 meanwhile.
4 On a third occasion, when we had just
5 finished digging and we evidently became a burden to
6 him because he had to feed us and there was nothing for
7 us to do, then he said he would liquidate us all unless
8 somebody came from the Bungalow and took us back. But
9 shortly afterwards, three or four members of the HVO in
10 black uniforms arrived and they communicated with Vlado
11 Santic to ask him what to do with us.
12 Then over the walkie-talkie they said,
13 repeatedly said, that they would kill us unless they
14 sent a vehicle to fetch us because we had -- they
15 didn't know what to use us for up there anymore. And
16 only around 10.00 or half past 10.00 in the evening
17 they agreed that a vehicle would come to fetch us. So
18 that is how we stayed alive.
19 Q. You were then taken back to the cinema that
20 night?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, ultimately, you were released, were you
23 not?
24 A. Yes, on the 30th of April, when Mr. Petkovic
25 and Sefer Halilovic agreed that all for all would be
1 released.
2 Q. And then you were re-arrested again and then
3 released again after that; is that correct?
4 A. They didn't catch me. I didn't flee
5 anywhere. I was in my flat. I had nowhere to go.
6 The next day, the very next day, on the 1st
7 of May, Ante Covic came, a member of the HVO Military
8 Police together with another policeman, whose name I
9 don't remember, and they told my wife they were taking
10 me to make a statement and that I would return
11 immediately, but I stayed in the cinema at Vitez.
12 Q. As a prisoner, did you spend some time at the
13 chess club?
14 A. Yes. A day or two later, in the cinema hall,
15 in the morning, around 2.00 or 3.00, of the 30 of us in
16 the hall, they singled out two or three. They took us
17 out to the hall and then they brought other prisoners
18 who were in other camps in Vitez, in the town of
19 Vitez. So that that night, there were 12 of us there,
20 a total of 12. We were taken in a van to the chess
21 club premises. The next day, 13 more persons were
22 brought. In the end, we were 13 there.
23 Q. And so the chess club was being used as a
24 kind of prison at that time; is that right?
25 A. Yes, a hidden prison.
1 Q. A hidden prison. What do you mean by that?
2 A. They hid the 13 of us. What they wanted to
3 do with us, I don't know, because it had been agreed
4 that all prisoners would be released. However, we got
5 the list -- we managed to send the list to the
6 prisoners in the hall.
7 On the 5th of May -- I'm not quite sure about
8 that date -- when the UNPROFOR and Red Cross
9 representatives came to the cinema hall to monitor the
10 release of all the prisoners, then our people gave them
11 the list and said that 13 persons were missing. That
12 was us.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you. Are
14 all these details relevant to our case? I wonder
15 whether we need to go into all these details.
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We can move quickly to the
17 last point I'm going to make.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you.
19 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
20 Q. Moving now to the last point. You were
21 ultimately released from the chess club; is that right?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You were ultimately released from captivity
24 at sometime in May or June; is that right?
25 A. In May.
1 Q. Now, do you know a man by the name of Ivan
2 Josipovic?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. And who is he?
5 A. He is a lawyer. He was a judge at the
6 District Court in Vitez. He worked in the police
7 station. He later went to the Military Police, the
8 regional Military Police as an inspector. He is Vlado
9 Santic's wife's brother.
10 Q. Did you run into Ivan Josipovic shortly after
11 you were released in June of 1993?
12 A. Yes. I saw him shortly after my release
13 after the Bosnian and Herzegovinan army captured him in
14 Travnik.
15 Q. Could you tell us the circumstances under
16 which you saw Mr. Josipovic, Ivan?
17 A. I knew Ivan, and I went to see what he said,
18 what he told our investigators. When I saw that they
19 carried out the investigation contrary to facts, I said
20 some things that I knew about him. We knew that the
21 unit of the regional police was stationed at the
22 Bungalow, in the Bungalow, and I asked him directly
23 what Santic's role was in all this.
24 Q. What did Mr. Josipovic, the brother-in-law of
25 Vlado Santic, tell you when you asked him that
1 question?
2 A. He said then that Santic was conducting the
3 attack on Ahmici from the Bungalow direction, from the
4 direction of the Bungalow. He was physically -- he was
5 present in Ahmici. He was there in person.
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: One moment, Your Honour.
7 Your Honour, I do have one more item I would
8 like to take up with this witness, and if the usher
9 could be so kind to provide the witness with this
10 exhibit, and we have English translations and copies
11 for the Court and Defence counsel.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 313, English
13 translation 313A.
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: For information of the Court,
15 and perhaps before I question this witness about this
16 document, this is a document that we have received in
17 the original form I believe today. We did receive a
18 Xerox copy of this original earlier, a couple of days
19 ago, when this witness came from Central Bosnia.
20 This witness was not present at the meeting
21 that this document commemorates, and it may not be
22 possible for him to authenticate this document, so I
23 will say that up front, but he can read the signatures
24 and tell us who signed this document to the best of his
25 ability; and we would hope, at a later date, to be able
1 to authenticate the document in some way, but that may
2 prove to be difficult except perhaps through
3 handwriting samples as will be made, I think, clear
4 when I ask this witness to provide some information
5 about this document.
6 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, could you look at what has been
7 marked 313 which is the original now of the document
8 that you had provided to us earlier in a Xerox form?
9 Now, this document, as you can see, talks
10 about an agreement that took place in October 1992.
11 Were you present when that agreement was reached in
12 Ahmici in October 1992?
13 A. No. All the signatories, Muslims, of this
14 agreement, are dead. They were killed on the 16th of
15 April.
16 Q. Would you, if you could, read for us the
17 names of the signatories to this document, first
18 starting on the left which says "For the HVO"?
19 A. For the HVO, Santic Nenad, Livancic Zeljko,
20 and Zoran Kupreskic.
21 Q. And on the right-hand side, for the Muslim
22 people?
23 A. On the right, Muris Ahmic, Nazif Ahmic,
24 Fahrudin Ahmic --
25 Q. Now, do you have any --
1 A. -- and Islam Ahmic.
2 Q. Do you have any information as to the
3 whereabouts of the four signatories for the Muslim
4 people on this document?
5 A. They died on the 16th of April in Ahmici.
6 Q. Now, you mentioned Zoran Kupreskic. Which
7 signature do you believe is, in fact, Zoran Kupreskic's
8 signature?
9 A. The last one.
10 Q. Could you tell us how you came to have
11 possession of a Xerox copy of this document?
12 A. From the Ministry of Defence.
13 Q. And this was as a result of a communiqué from
14 the Office of the Prosecutor seeking documents or
15 materials pertaining to this case; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Your Honours, we are in a bit
18 of an awkward situation with regard to this document
19 because we have received it so late in the case. It
20 does appear that if these names are correct with regard
21 to the Muslim signatories, that they are indeed not
22 alive to testify about this agreement. I note that the
23 signature that is allegedly the signature of Zoran
24 Kupreskic appears to be simply "Zoran."
25 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Zlotrg, that we're
1 looking at a signature that simply says "Zoran"?
2 A. Yes, that's what is written, but people who
3 worked with Zoran told me that it was his signature and
4 also the -- that the meeting was held and that seven
5 persons were present at the meeting.
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: It may be necessary, since
7 now we do have the original, to request a handwriting
8 sample from Mr. Kupreskic, Zoran, to try to compare the
9 signature and to try to establish its authenticity and
10 its connection with the Defendant unless, of course,
11 Zoran Kupreskic or his counsel will admit that this is,
12 in fact, his signature.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President,
15 regardless of how Zoran Kupreskic will defend himself
16 in this case, it doesn't matter. The giving of the
17 signature is help to the Defence (sic). I don't think
18 he is obliged to help the Defence (sic) in any way and
19 to give his signature because of the expertise, and
20 this situation cannot be taken as evidence against him,
21 that is, to prove any relationship. I think that he
22 shouldn't participate in the process of establishing
23 facts. It is not his duty to give -- he is under no
24 obligation to give his signature. I think a decision,
25 a ruling, was made by this Court that nobody is obliged
1 to contribute to the Defence (sic) by his actions or
2 with his actions.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: There was a
4 misunderstanding. According to the translation, you
5 said "nobody is obliged to contribute to the Defence by
6 his actions." You mean the Prosecution.
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes. Yes. It was a
8 mistake.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Prosecution.
10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: So you are talking on behalf
12 of Mr. Zoran Kupreskic. I wonder whether Mr. Radovic
13 agrees with you because I think Mr. Radovic, you are
14 counsel for --
15 MR. RADOVIC: I agree. I agree.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will decide on
17 this and we will make a ruling.
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour. At this
19 point we would offer this only for identification
20 purposes.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. So it's 313 and
22 313A for identification purposes.
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: We will make a ruling on this
25 matter, but I wonder whether we could go on with
1 cross-examination. We might finish this afternoon.
2 Counsel Pavkovic?
3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I can go on. I
4 don't know whether you intend to prolong the hearing,
5 but I don't think I can finish in ten minutes. In any
6 case, it would be more convenient for me if we went on
7 tomorrow. In any case, I will follow what you say.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. You may start and we
9 will go on until 5.15, so you have 25 minutes.
10 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, before I start
11 questioning the witness, it might be useful for us to
12 get some information from the Prosecution because all
13 that the witness stated today or almost everything, I
14 hear and my colleagues, Defence counsel, hear for the
15 first time.
16 The Prosecutor submitted to the Defence the
17 statement of the witness made on the 10th of June,
18 1997. At the end of that statement, it says that the
19 witness made some notes for himself on all the events
20 that took place and on other events in the area of the
21 municipality of Vitez from 1991 until 1993, and these
22 notes he considers, as stated here, as part of his
23 interview. It states further that these notes are
24 enclosed -- are enclosed. Ten pages of the notes. The
25 Defence never received these notes.
1 In view of this fact then, I submit to the
2 Court that the Prosecution should state what happened
3 to the notes, and this would be the reason why I would
4 like to think about my cross-examination.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: You are right. We too
6 received only this short statement of one page and a
7 few lines, no notes, and I wonder whether Mr. Moskowitz
8 can tell us about those notes, why they were not handed
9 over to the Defence.
10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Well, I appreciate Defence
11 counsel pointing that out because I had not noticed
12 that there were notes attached and, in fact, I have no
13 notes myself, so I am at a loss at this point to tell
14 you where the notes are. They are not in my file, and
15 I have never seen them before. You know, if it's
16 appropriate to have these notes turned over to Defence
17 counsel overnight for him to look at it for tomorrow,
18 that would be fine with the Prosecution. We would not
19 object to that. I frankly had not noticed that before,
20 and I do not have the notes.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So you may try to
22 find these notes right away and ...
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. In fact, the witness
24 may have them. I don't know if he brought them with
25 him or not.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: So we will provide them
3 tonight.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you have the notes, the
5 ten pages?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: In what language? In
8 Serbo-Croatian probably, Croatian, Bosniak? Not in
9 English. Probably there is an English copy for the
10 Prosecutor.
11 Anyway, the original should be handed over
12 right away to the Defence, and Defence counsel is right
13 in saying that -- whatever was said this afternoon was
14 new also to the Court. We had read, of course,
15 carefully that statement that this was new, so
16 therefore, you need time, and we will resume tomorrow
17 at 9.30.
18 Yes, Counsel? Yes, please. Do you want to
19 say -- no.
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No, no, no.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: So you have more time if we
22 resume at 9.30, but we would like to try to finish by
23 tomorrow afternoon, so that on Friday at 10.00 we will
24 have a meeting with the registry about the on-site
25 visit at 9.00. At 10.00, we would start with the
1 pre-Defence conference, which should take not more than
2 one hour so that we can finish as soon as possible. In
3 particular, Defence counsel may wish to go back to
4 Zagreb or Sarajevo and prepare for the visit.
5 Do you think we can finish -- let us try to
6 finish by tomorrow afternoon.
7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We only have, as the Court
8 knows, two witnesses.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: But one -- for one, we will
10 need not more than twenty minutes.
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Precisely. And the other one
12 may not be that much longer.
13 MR. TERRIER: Ten minutes.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Ten minutes. So tomorrow
15 morning at 9.30.
16 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
17 4.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
18 the 15th day of October, 1998, at
19 9.30 a.m.
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