1 Tuesday, 12th January, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
8 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
9 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. We may
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Good morning, Your
14 WITNESS: ZVONIMIR CILIC (Resumed)
15 Examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Cilic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. May I just point out at the beginning, we
19 looked at the transcript yesterday, and there was some
20 problems because of the speed at which you speak, so
21 please speak as slowly as possible because of the
22 interpreters today, please.
23 A. I'll do my best.
24 Q. I think there was an error regarding the
25 first election results. What were the percentages of
1 the votes won by the HDZ?
2 A. The HDZ won 40.2 per cent of the votes.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you. That is simply for
4 the sake of correction.
5 You said that you set up a press service, and
6 that within the framework of that press service, you
7 issued a newspaper. After that, a radio station was
8 founded, wasn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what else did you do in the area of the
12 A. A local TV station was set up.
13 Q. When?
14 A. The radio station on the 17th of April, '92,
15 and the TV station broadcast for the first time on the
16 17th of June, 1992.
17 Q. Why did you set up these media services,
18 including a TV station?
19 A. From the beginning of the political and
20 national turmoil in the former Yugoslavia, the area of
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, especially Central Bosnia,
22 inhabited by a large number of Croats, was under total
23 information blockade. We could only receive media from
24 Belgrade and from Sarajevo, which was still absolutely
25 faithful to the official authorities in Belgrade, and
1 we also received newspapers from Belgrade and
2 Sarajevo. There were no newspapers reaching us from
3 Croatia, and the Zagreb radio station could never be
4 received very well in the area of Central Bosnia.
5 Also, the only daily newspaper -- I'm sorry,
6 the only daily news broadcast which we could watch
7 every third day from Zagreb was abolished, and this was
8 something that was very important for us. This was the
9 most important daily news programme at 7.30 p.m.
10 So the Croats felt cut off, that they were
11 receiving information that did not suit their interests
12 but primarily the Serb aggressors and the official
13 policies of the former Yugoslavia and up to an extent
14 also the official authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. Tell me, apart from the TV Vitez and the
16 Vitez radio station, yourself, did the Muslims have
17 their own local radio and TV station?
18 A. At first, when we formed Radio Vitez,
19 representatives of the Muslim people worked with us.
20 This was the press service that I referred to
21 yesterday. They were Midhat Varupa, a lawyer, and
22 Professor Muhamed Halilovic who participated with us on
23 a footing of equality. This went on for two months.
24 However, when we started preparing local TV programmes,
25 Mr. Varupa did participate at first, but in time he
1 ceased coming, so that I must be quite frank and say
2 that the television was, in fact, a Croatian television
3 station because they simply didn't want to participate
4 with us.
5 When they stopped coming to work in Radio
6 Vitez and Radio-Television Vitez, in the part of Stari
7 Vitez which we call Mahala, they set up their own local
8 radio station, which could be compared to ours, though
9 it had a very limited range, it could only cover a part
10 of the Lasva Valley, or even, to be more precise, the
11 municipality of Vitez.
12 Q. And what about their television?
13 A. They started with television later. They had
14 a team of journalists and reporters in Mahala, in Stari
16 Q. Very well. Tell us, apart from your work in
17 the press service and the radio and TV, did you start
18 working for the army and when?
19 A. It was only at the beginning of October 1992,
20 at the invitation of a good friend of mine, Mario
21 Cerkez, who at the time was head of the municipal staff
22 of the HVO, who asked me to come and help him in some
23 administrative tasks; and primarily in the area of
24 information, a need was felt already then to provide
25 information for the troops and the members of the
1 municipal staff of the HVO.
2 At the time, I accepted, because I thought
3 this to be both my duty and obligation as a citizen.
4 At the time, when -- the situation was becoming more
5 and more difficult in every respect, the political,
6 national, and economic. So not only because of my
7 feelings of friendship for Mario but also because of my
8 duties as a citizen.
9 Q. And what was the position you held?
10 A. It was the function of a political officer,
11 it was called. It was assistant commander for
12 political and propaganda activities.
13 Q. Were you there as a professional or were you
14 involved in military affairs?
15 A. Mario knew very well that there was nothing
16 of the soldier in me. I had no inclination towards the
17 army and towards uniforms, so that I would not have
18 accepted under any circumstances a role which would
19 have had any military aspects to it. But up to an
20 extent, it was military because I was a member of the
21 staff, but operationally, it was a professional duty.
22 I had to prepare reports on the political situation in
23 the municipality of Vitez and beyond and even for the
24 whole area of the former Yugoslavia.
25 Q. As a member of the command, were you wearing
2 A. Throughout the war, the war ended, I never
3 had any weapons at all. To be quite frank, in the
4 command there were some other people who didn't carry
5 arms. We had a pistol that three of us would share
6 occasionally. When we would go into the field, we
7 would see whether we might need it. But otherwise, I
8 never carried any weapons, and I was happy that that
9 was so.
10 Q. Did you need to have a weapon?
11 A. Very often, I would have liked to have one on
12 me because I would cover kilometres where there were no
13 troops and where the lines between the Muslims and
14 Croats were mixed together, but simply there was a
15 shortage of weapons, and a number of members of the
16 command didn't carry them because we thought it was
17 more important for the soldier on the frontline to be
18 armed rather than us in the command.
19 Q. Did you wear a uniform?
20 A. I spent the whole war, and it was a bitter
21 winter, and I wore it in a -- I spent it in a
22 camouflage uniform, and in order not to fall ill, I
23 wore all kinds of things over it because this was a
24 summer camouflage uniform. I wore my own jackets and
25 sweaters. I received military boots at the end of the
1 war. Until then, I wore my civilian shoes, even though
2 I spent a lot of time in the field exposed to the snow,
3 the cold, the rain, the wind.
4 Q. Yesterday, we reached the point when the HVO
5 was set up, first as a municipal staff; that's what you
6 just said.
7 A. At the time, it was the municipal staff, and
8 later on, the HVO was officially formed, and then the
9 municipal staff became a part of it.
10 Q. When were brigades established?
11 A. The system of brigades, when talking about
12 the Croats in Vitez, they first became members of a
13 brigade on the 22nd of December, 1992, when the Stjepan
14 Tomasevic Brigade was formed in Novi Travnik which
15 combined young men from the municipality of Vitez and
16 the municipality of Novi Travnik.
17 Q. The members of that unit coming from the
18 Vitez municipality were members of the 2nd Battalion?
19 A. Yes, it was based in Vitez, but it was part
20 of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade which had another
21 battalion and that was the 1st Battalion.
22 Q. After the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade was
23 formed together with the Novi Travnik Battalion, were
24 there any other changes prior to the war?
25 A. I don't know what kind of changes you mean.
1 Q. Did the Vitez Battalion separate?
2 A. In mid March, the need was felt -- that was
3 the conclusion reached by people of military
4 education -- that one brigade could not function
5 throughout the area and that there was a need for two
6 brigades; and in the middle of March, I don't know the
7 exact date, Stjepan Tomasevic remained in the area of
8 Novi Travnik whereas in the Vitez municipality, the
9 Viteska Brigade was form.
10 Q. What was the strength of the Vitez Brigade?
11 A. I don't know the exact number, but prior to
12 the beginning of the war, I think it was about 300 men.
13 Q. In view of the fact that the beginning of the
14 war was officially on the 16th of April and the Vitez
15 Brigade was formed in March, how well structured was
16 it, was this brigade, in terms of the troops, the
17 equipment, the training, et cetera?
18 A. Let me try and explain this. We started to
19 build the house from the roof down, the roof being the
20 name of the brigade and the command, whereas everything
21 else was lacking, because if I said that prior to the
22 beginning of the Muslim-Croat conflict, this brigade
23 numbered some 300 men, this is not sufficient even for
24 a battalion, not to mention a brigade, but we called it
25 a brigade maybe also in order to encourage ourselves
1 and perhaps to intimidate our opponents.
2 Q. I will now give you a list of the members of
3 the 2nd Battalion of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade from
4 February so you will tell us whether this list roughly
5 corresponds and whether the professional indications
6 correspond to what was customarily used to indicate
7 military units.
8 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D18/2.
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
10 Q. Mr. Cilic, can you recognise this document?
11 A. I'm afraid I can't find my way around very
12 well. For example, the part referring to the command
13 of the 2nd Battalion, my name is not there, and I was a
14 member of the command of that battalion.
15 Q. Is it possible that at the time that all the
16 members of the command were not listed regarding the
17 command staff because the document seems to focus on
18 men rather than positions held in the command. It is
19 more a list of the troops, I think.
20 A. It might be because I said at the beginning
21 that my joining the staff was on a professional basis.
22 Maybe that is why I'm not there. But perhaps later on,
23 my name does figure because I was a member, after all.
24 Q. According to the addresses of the individual
25 soldiers, one can tell that they are mostly soldiers
1 coming from Vitez municipality, aren't they?
2 A. In those days, it was a rarity for anyone
3 outside Vitez municipality to be a member of our
5 Q. These numbers, indications of the military
6 post and the date are linked to various units, escort
7 platoon of the 2nd Battalion, et cetera. These names
8 of units, are they correct? Do they correspond to the
9 situation as it was then?
10 A. I think it is -- it is embellished in
11 relation to the real state of affairs. This was a sort
12 of formal structure rather than the actual state of
14 Q. You mentioned the figure of about 300
15 members, active duty members. Does that correspond?
16 A. As from the beginning of 1993 and the
17 beginning of the war the number didn't change
18 significantly, it was within this range of 300 men.
19 Q. Up to 300 or more?
20 A. I would say up to 300.
21 Q. Very well. Will you please also look at the
22 list of troops of the 1st Battalion, how the villages
23 were represented? This is a document of the Vitez
24 brigade, the 1st Battalion, prior to the conflict, the
25 14th of April, '93, and we have names by villages --
1 or, rather, the number of troops provided by each
2 village, and the total number was a target number.
3 So will you look at this and tell us why
4 there is mention of a company? May I call the usher
5 for his assistance, please?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D19/2.
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
8 Q. Will you please tell us, in view of the
9 heading of this list, it says, "List of Men of the 1st
10 Battalion by Villages." So it is the 1st Battalion
11 we're talking about.
12 Reviewing these villages, would you say that
13 there were other areas covered by other battalions?
14 A. The 1st Battalion was the only one that
15 existed, and this is clearly visible from this list of
16 villages, because literally all the larger villages in
17 Vitez municipality are included in this list. There
18 was no 2nd or 3rd Battalion, and that is why I said
19 that the brigade was called the Vitez Brigade, even
20 though by structure it didn't really merit to be called
21 a brigade.
22 Q. These villages, Nadioci, Santici, Dubravica,
23 Poculica and Rijeka, which part of the 1st Battalion
24 covered these villages?
25 A. This is the eastern part, closer to Busovaca
1 municipality and partly facing Zenica municipality,
2 Mosunj, Mali, Melijke (phoen), Jadun (phoen), Zabilje.
3 Q. What did they belong to?
4 A. That is the western part of Travnik
5 municipality, which borders on Travnik and Novi
7 Q. And this last group, Gornja Verceska,
8 Krcevine, Stari Vitez, Kamenjaca, Gacice?
9 A. This is a group of villages that are not
10 interconnected. Krcevine is in the northern part of
11 the municipality, closer to Zenica, though there are
12 other Muslim villages behind Krcevine until you reach
13 the boarders of Zenica municipality. Stari Vitez is a
14 part of the urban area around the parish church in
15 Vitez. Kolonjia is the very centre of the town.
16 Kamenjaca is Zabrde where the secondary school centre
17 was, and Gacice is in the southern part of the
18 municipality at the far extreme end in relation to the
19 village of Krcevine.
20 Q. Were there any formal sectors by villages?
21 A. Yes. There were four sectors until the
22 moment when the structure was developed to such an
23 extent that we had proper battalions of the Vitez
24 brigade formed later on in the course of the war, but
25 until then the sectors functioned in practice, and they
1 were formed on a territorial principle.
2 Q. When was the structure of the Vitez brigade
3 completed? When did you have the more or less final
4 list and relatively well-equipped units?
5 A. I don't really think we can talk about proper
6 equipment if we know that for 11 months Vitez was under
7 total information blockade. So we couldn't supply
8 ourselves with the necessary equipment and weapons, but
9 there was mobilisation, additional mobilisation in the
10 course of the war, and I think that in the second half
11 of the war the Vitez brigade was properly structured.
12 Q. You said the second half? What do you mean?
13 A. The late autumn of 1993.
14 Q. According to this list, on 14th of April
15 there were about 260 men who were members of the Vitez
16 brigade, is that correct, this battalion?
17 A. Yes, that is correct. Maybe some squads are
18 missing, I don't know if the members of the command
19 staff were there, whether the military police members
20 or maybe there's some soldiers missing, but I don't
21 think that there are many of those.
22 Q. There is no Ahmici on this list. Ahmici
23 would probably belong -- if we're looking at the
24 territorial principle, it would belong to the 1st
25 Company; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. You see, there were very few Croats in
2 the village of Ahmici. As far as I know, about 15
3 households in total. And the villages of Nadioci, and
4 Santici, and Dubravica, that is where Ahmici could
5 belong, along with those villages.
6 Q. So there were no active military members in
7 Ahmici if they're not listed; is that correct?
8 A. I cannot say there were none, but there were
9 very few. I know most of the people from that area,
10 but there were very few Croats in the Ahmici area.
11 Q. Mr. Cilic, let me ask you this: If it is not
12 on the list, do you know whether anybody from Ahmici
13 was there? I give you the list. Ahmici is not on the
14 list. Do you know that somebody from Ahmici was
15 there? I only ask you what you know. You don't need
16 to go beyond that. I gave you two lists, so do you
18 A. No, do I not know.
19 Q. Thank you. Yesterday we talked something
20 about the co-ordination -- co-ordinating committee for
21 protection of Muslims, and you said that this
22 co-ordinating board -- in fact, I forgot. When was it
24 A. This all took place in September, when the
25 Muslim representatives left the municipal government
1 and established a parallel one in a part of Vitez
2 called Mahala.
3 Q. So they left the civilian government and the
4 municipal government?
5 A. Yes. All positions they were given based on
6 the election results. This all happened in early
7 September, and they formed their own government in
9 Q. So this co-ordinating board changed its name
10 and became War Presidency at some stage. Do you know
11 when this was?
12 A. I'm not sure whether I could pinpoint the
13 date, but I also believe that it was sometime in the
14 fall. It was either late September or early October,
15 but I know that after they left the municipal
16 government and formed their own government in Mahala,
17 that's when it was.
18 Q. The government which was established in
19 Mahala, did it have all agencies, like any other local
21 A. Yes. And you may ask how I know this. I
22 know it because they were sending their decisions on to
23 our press centre, and my opinion is that they wanted to
24 provide -- to give themselves legitimacy in the Vitez
1 Q. What about the civilian police? Did they
2 also separate at the same time when the government
3 separated itself?
4 A. I'm not sure whether it was on the same day,
5 but within two or three days, so that by mid-September,
6 in this small area, there was -- we had a situation
7 where the Croatian local government and the Muslim
8 local government functioned side by side and they were
9 really physically separated by only a couple hundred
10 metres, as well as the police and all other agencies.
11 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at a document,
12 and this is about -- regarding taxes in the new Vitez
13 municipality, and the -- it was going to be realised
14 through the local government in Vitez, and it is signed
15 by Fuad Kaknija.
16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
19 Q. What was Fuad Kaknija's position?
20 A. Fuad Kaknija was in a joint government.
21 After the elections he held the same position as here.
22 He was the President of the executive board of the
23 local government and the joint government.
24 Q. In what capacity did he adopt this decision
25 to collect taxes with the assistance of the armed
2 A. We received this in our press service and
3 commented on it. It ran counter to all -- to the
4 democratic principles, because such a government could
5 not be legitimate, because if we were to start with
6 basic principles, they were in the minority after the
7 elections. And during all the frictions, part of the
8 councilmen from other parties was part of the
9 coalition, but they formed their own government, and
10 you can glean that from this tax collector's office.
11 The budget director, the local communes and all these
12 things, but Fuad Kaknija is still the President of the
13 executive board.
14 Q. And when this --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreters don't
16 have the document to read from. Sorry.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: There was no translation.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have not
19 been provided with the text and counsel is reading from
20 it. It is impossible to follow her.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: But afterwards the witness
22 made a statement, so could you translate that? I
23 wonder whether counsel could --
24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I don't have --
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you ask the witness to
1 repeat what he said in response to your question?
2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
3 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber whether the
4 bodies which I have just enumerated were the structures
5 which are part of the municipal government?
6 A. These structures belong to the municipal
7 authority, and the joint government in Vitez also had
8 the same structures, and after a part of the -- even
9 after the Muslim councilmen left, so all these bodies
10 belong to the government. So now we can discuss its
11 legitimacy. That's a separate issue.
12 Q. We also have here that Halid a Munir was
13 charged with implementing all these activities. What
14 is her ethnic background?
15 A. She is -- he is a Bosnian Muslim, and he was
16 not originally a member of the joint government.
17 Q. So he was appointed to this new government?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, Fuad Kaknija is President of the
20 Executive Board here. He was a member of the original
21 government which was elected after the elections;
23 A. Yes. As I just pointed out, I think that
24 this was a way to provide legitimacy to this government
25 in this territory, that is the entire territory of
1 Vitez municipality, and this also means that they would
2 send this to the press outlets and the media outlets
3 like the Radio Vitez. And as far as I know, also --
4 the taxpayers also received the same type of documents
5 from them.
6 Q. Does this mean that the councilmen who were
7 given the mandate in the original elections moved their
8 mandate, so to speak, to this new government which was
9 formed in Stari Vitez, given the signature here?
10 A. Yes. Most all members of government who held
11 certain positions moved to the other government. I'm
12 not sure about the council members, but for the
13 government members, yes, I can say that expressly.
14 Q. Given that the government separated and the
15 police separated, this was all in September of '92, did
16 Muslim and Croats continue to work alongside each other
17 in different enterprises, companies or other local
19 A. Except for the political structures, civilian
20 and military police, there were no other major changes
21 and interruptions of the relationships in the territory
22 of the Vitez municipality.
23 Q. Do you know whether anybody was fired because
24 of the ethnic group to which they belonged?
25 A. No. We only suffered from the economic
1 hardship, the economic crisis that was there, and I was
2 one victim of this, but many other Croats, Serbs, as
3 well as Bosnian Muslims were victims of it.
4 Q. Let me provide you another document, and I
5 would like you to review it.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D21/2.
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
8 Q. Do you recall this document? Was it ever
10 A. Yes. In fact, I have in my notes that this
11 took place -- I remember that this happened at a
12 session I attended, and this is an agreement that was
13 reached then.
14 Q. Who attended this meeting? It says the Vitez
15 HVO. It's not very legible. The coordinating board
16 for the protection of Muslims, SDA, and HDZ, and the
17 date is 20 May, 1992. You said that from the
18 signatures you know who these people are.
19 A. Yes, I know who they are. Ivan Santic, Pero
20 Skopljak for the Croatian side, and Fuad Kaknjo and --
21 Kajmovic is his last name, he was the SDA member for
22 Vitez, and they represented the Muslims. Fuad Kaknjo
23 was president of this coordinating board.
24 Q. And who was a member of the war presidency?
25 A. As far as I know, and I believe I know it
1 well, Dr. Muhamed Mujezinovic was president of the war
3 Q. In this statement, it says, and it is the
4 last paragraph. Can the ...
5 [Counsel reading from document - no translation]
6 Does that mean that the Croatian side
7 acknowledged the legality of this coordinating
9 A. I will allow that I am maybe biased, but Ivan
10 Santic spent a lot of energy in maintaining the unity
11 in the Vitez municipality, even at the cost of
12 recognising something that was not fully legal. I
13 don't know whether this coordinating body of Muslims in
14 Vitez was seeking to be recognised, but Ivan Santic
15 tried to calm down the situation because the situation
16 was getting more and more critical, and citizens wanted
17 peace, tolerance, and solutions that would benefit
18 everybody in Vitez.
19 Q. Where was the municipal building in Old
20 Vitez; do you know where it was?
21 A. Yes, I know because I went there several
22 times for some meetings. It was in a part called
23 Mahala, it was in the very centre, and it was -- within
24 that complex was the table tennis club, it was -- a
25 fire company was there, it was a local commune, so
1 there was enough space there to organise the agency
2 which was this government, and it was alongside the
3 road which went from Vitez to Travnik, and that is
4 where the police were.
5 Q. I will show you another document.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D22/2.
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
8 Q. In the heading it says Republic of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina, the Vitez municipality, and War
10 Presidency. It was issued on 11 February, 1993. Does
11 that mean that the war presidency remained until the
12 beginning of war as a separate entity, that is the
13 Muslim ones?
14 A. Yes, until the conflict of 16 April, I had no
15 information, and the official Croat government also did
16 not receive any information about any changes, so this
17 war presidency was operational.
18 Q. Given that you were a member of the military
19 structure and you were in the press service, were you
20 receiving such documents; in other words, documents
21 issued by the war presidency?
22 A. I cannot say that they were arriving on a
23 regular basis, but the war presidency did try to
24 provide documents to the press service and to Radio
25 Vitez, so we often received their decisions, and it was
1 up to us whether we were going to broadcast them or
2 not. For the most part, we did not give them in raw
3 form; we usually commented on them.
4 Q. Do you recognise the seal that they used, the
6 A. Yes, I do, and this is the one that was used
7 throughout the period.
8 Q. Is this the seal of the executive board of
9 the Vitez municipality?
10 A. Yes, yes, but again, let me emphasise, it is
11 the Muslim board because it was not the seal that was
12 the seal of the joint government.
13 Q. So did you have your own seal? You had one
14 with a different coat of arms.
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. The conclusion is to establish two joint
17 checkpoints of men jointly to control the traffic. In
18 paragraph 2, members of the civilian police of MUP of
19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina would man these
20 checkpoints as well as the HVO police, the military
21 police of the BH army, and the HVO military police, and
22 that they would all come to the checkpoints from their
23 own centres. In other words, they never really
24 joined. Because there were some initiatives, they
25 remained separated.
1 A. Yes, they remained separated throughout, and
2 they never again managed to join together. There were
3 attempts to do so, but -- I have a note. The last
4 attempt to do so was on 27 January, 1993. They tried
5 to reactivate the joint police station in Vitez because
6 it was clear that crime was on the rise. But the
7 attempt failed.
8 Q. So that meant that in a small area of Vitez,
9 there were four police agencies?
10 A. Yes. Civilian police, both Muslim and Croat,
11 and military police, the HVO and the Territorial
12 Defence, which at that time was already the BH army.
13 Q. And it also states that all the policemen
14 were going to go to the checkpoints from their own
15 centres. Where were they located?
16 A. They were in the old police station which
17 was -- the Croat, that is, was in the former Yugoslav
18 police station, and the Muslim one was in Mahala.
19 Q. What about the military police?
20 A. Military police, both the military police
21 units were very close to the civilian police stations.
22 Q. In paragraph 7 it states that should these
23 conclusions not be implemented, the control checkpoints
24 would have to be established in a different way, and
25 the 3rd Corps of the BH army was going to be
1 responsible for it. Did you take this as a threat?
2 A. You could understand it in different ways.
3 You can understand it as if the HVO was not legitimate,
4 that the only legitimate formations in this area were
5 the BH army units, in this case the 3rd Army Corps,
6 because the area of Vitez was, according to them, part
7 of the 3rd Corps territory.
8 Q. It is also stated that all local village
9 checkpoints in Vitez municipality should be abolished.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not
11 have copies of these documents.
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
13 Q. Where did these checkpoints appear?
14 A. They mushroomed, literally. Wherever anybody
15 thought it would be a good idea to have a checkpoint,
16 there was a checkpoint, and virtually on all roads and
17 crossroads, points leading into town and out of town
18 and into villages and sometimes also in various other
19 places throughout the Lasva River Valley.
20 Q. Where did the Muslims usually set up their
22 A. They had a checkpoint at the entrance and
23 exit to Mahala; this is on the main road running
24 through the urban part of Vitez. Later on, agreement
25 was reached to remove this checkpoint, but these
1 agreements never lasted. They would be removed, and a
2 day or two later, they would crop up again. Also,
3 checkpoints would be put up on a road leading from the
4 centre of town to the Vitezit factory, a road used by
5 many workers who experienced all kinds of
6 unpleasantness at these informal checkpoints.
7 Q. Were there checkpoints at Kruscica?
8 A. At Kruscica, very frequently there were
9 checkpoints, but in my view, there's a very serious
10 reason for this. In the southern part of Kruscica,
11 outside the settlement itself, HVO members were
12 quartered into motels, whereas a part of the village
13 behind the motels were inhabited by a majority Muslim
14 population, and therefore, in a part of Kruscica which
15 separates the Croatian from the Muslim part, at a
16 locality known as Fatina Vodica, they would set up a
17 checkpoint where several incidents occurred, seizure of
18 weapons, vehicles, and even exchange of fire, and the
19 arrest of a number of members of the HVO.
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I apologise, Your
21 Honours, but I am unable to find a particular document
22 because this witness came earlier than we had
23 originally planned. We will come back to that topic
25 Q. What about Grbavica, please?
1 A. An important part of the Vitez-Travnik road
2 or the ring road around Vitez which links up with the
3 road from Vitez at a point called Grbavica was a place
4 where a checkpoint was frequently put up, and numerous
5 incidents occurred there, and perhaps later on during
6 my testimony we will see that this was one of the
7 reasons for the conflict in Vitez municipality.
8 I can also say without you reminding me that
9 there were checkpoints often on the road going from
10 Vitez across the pass at Vjetrenice to Zenica, then
11 there were checkpoints also on the road from Bila
12 towards Zenica, and the Catholic Zupa, Brajkovici, and
13 further on to Zenica, then in settlements with a Muslim
14 majority population such as Sadovace and Han Bila, and
15 there were many misunderstandings and clashes that
16 occurred at these checkpoints.
17 Q. Will you please examine another document? It
18 is an announcement of the civilian government of the
19 Vitez HVO. It has to do with the problems of the
20 accommodation of the army and the police in Vitez.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could a copy be placed on
24 the ELMO, please?
25 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether a spare copy
1 could be placed on the ELMO at the request of the
3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, okay.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Have you got a spare copy?
5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No. I have a problem
6 with this set of documents. I just don't have enough.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Therefore, may I ask you to
8 read slowly, if you read from this document, so that
9 the interpreters can follow it?
10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
11 Q. So this is an announcement of the civilian
12 government at an extraordinary session held on the 2nd
13 of January, 1993, which says that the government
14 reviewed the security and political situation in the
15 municipality resulting from the concentration of
16 numerous heterogeneous military institutions in Vitez
17 and the most recent incidents during the Christmas and
18 New Year holidays.
19 It was noted that in Vitez at present, the
20 following have been accommodated: the regional staff
21 of the HVO, the staff of the regional military police
22 of the HVO, the staff of the Vitez Battalion of the
23 HVO, the municipal military police of the HVO, the
24 municipal civilian police, the barracks of the armed
25 forces in Kruscica, the armed forces barracks in
1 Preocica, the municipal headquarters of the armed
2 forces of Vitez, the municipal military police of the
3 armed forces of Vitez within the framework of which
4 there is the civilian Muslim police and barracks
5 housing the special unit Vitezovi in the Dubravica
6 school. The heterogeneity of various and sometimes
7 contradictory interests of the mentioned institutions,
8 which all find themselves in a narrow area,
9 increasingly provoke undesirable incidents with
10 sometimes tragic consequences.
11 The HVO government of Vitez has reviewed this
12 problem at its session held on the 28th of December,
13 1992, and in connection with the accommodation of the
14 HVO troops and the troops of the armed forces has
15 expressed a very definite position that all the troops
16 and all the headquarters should be accommodated in the
17 barracks in Travnik, Zenica, Busovaca, and Kiseljak,
18 and that schools and hotels should be vacated.
19 Reference is also made to uncontrolled
20 shooting during the Christmas and New Year holidays on
21 a large scale and the death of military policeman Mate
22 Jakovljevic on the 1st of January, 1993, which have
23 made an unfavourable situation critical. In view of
24 these developments in Vitez, the impression is that a
25 conflict of larger proportions could break out at any
1 moment which would call in question the lives of
2 policemen, troops, commanders, and even neutral
4 It was also noted that the military is, on a
5 daily basis and in various ways, provoking unnecessary
6 material damage. It is our view that preventive
7 measures need to be taken urgently. The Vitez HVO
8 government continues to uphold the view that the troops
9 and their commands, both of the HVO and of the armed
10 forces, OS, should be accommodated in two barracks.
11 After the latest developments, we insist on the same
12 for the regional military police.
13 Signed by the President of the Vitez HVO,
14 Ivan Santic.
15 Mr. Cilic, do you recognise the signature?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember this communiqué? Was this a
18 problem that was discussed on several occasions?
19 A. Yes, indeed it was, and as far as I can
20 remember, attempts were made through the regional
21 headquarters of the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia
22 and the 3rd Corps in Zenica to implement such a
23 decision. However, these proposals on the part of the
24 government did not meet with understanding.
25 Q. When reference is made to the armed forces in
1 Kruscica, Preocica, the municipal staff of the armed
2 forces, the municipal military police of the armed
3 forces, whose army is that?
4 A. All this refers to the Muslim forces of the
5 civilian and military police, and the troops
7 Q. Did they use the expression "armed forces"
8 before they became the BH army?
9 A. They used term "Territorial Defence," but in
10 certain situations they also used the term "the armed
11 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
12 Q. Were units and commands ever moved in
13 response to this proposal?
14 A. As far as I know, no, everything remained the
15 same as it was prior to this request on the part of the
16 HVO government in Vitez.
17 Q. Thank you. With the help of the usher, I
18 should like to distribute another document.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
21 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, my
22 colleague Radovic asks for permission to be excused for
23 a moment.
24 Q. This is a document of the Defence
25 headquarters of the district of Zenica, dated the 13th
1 of November, 1992, and the subject is securing
2 accommodation for units of the armed forces of the
3 republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is addressed
4 to the command in Vitez, signed --
5 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, it seems to me
6 that the English translation that we have does not
7 correspond to the document in the Croatian language.
8 This is a document signed by Mr. Merdan, and we're not
9 quite sure that we have the right translation.
10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: It's the 13th of
11 November. It's okay.
12 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: It's okay.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: It's okay?
15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
18 Q. Have you looked at this document?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you read the contents? Let me read a
21 part that I should like to ask you to comment on,
22 "Based on the order of the headquarters of the supreme
23 command of the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina, strictly confidential, dated 4th
25 July," we can't see the year, "On the formation of
1 commands, staffs and units of the armed forces of the
2 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, with the aim of taking
3 action in time for accommodation into barracks and for
4 passing the winter there, I order immediately take
5 action with the competent authorities in the
6 municipality to secure accommodation facilities in
7 constructed buildings for command staffs and units,
8 which are being formed, on the basis of the
9 above-quoted order. The facilities and deployment of
10 units in them should be performed according to the plan
11 of use. The facilities need to be furbished and plans
12 of safety drawn up."
13 Paragraph 3, "The organisation should be set
14 in such a way that within the framework of battalions
15 and units, and thereby also for the commands and lower
16 units, food should be provided and distributed."
17 And final paragraph, "Take all other actions
18 you consider indispensable which will contribute to the
19 best possible conditions of life, work and combat of
20 your units. Report to this command of action taken in
21 this area. Be extremely persistent in executing this
22 order, and insist with the authorities that they carry
23 out their part of the work."
24 So obviously this concerns the deployment of
25 units of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as
1 they are called in this document, in Vitez. The Vitez
2 command covered Vitez and the surrounding villages;
3 didn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could such a document circulate freely.
6 Would it be possible to conceal the accommodation of
7 the armed forces?
8 A. You're asking me whether this document was
9 concealed. I'm not sure that it was. Regardless of
10 the fact that it has the indication, "Strictly
11 confidential," I think it was something that was
12 well-known to the public at large, because the Vitez
13 municipality's too small an area for any activities to
14 prepare the construction of buildings and for the
15 stationing of military units to be carried out without
16 the public knowing about it.
17 Q. Were such buildings built in the area of
18 Stari Vitez?
19 A. They were not, but the existing buildings
20 were improved and refurbished because there was a
21 shortage of funds for the construction of new
22 buildings. So in Vitez most of the existing buildings
23 were used for this purpose. For instance, in Preocica,
24 Bukve, Kruscica the existing school buildings were
25 used, because the schools were not working at the time,
1 there was no -- there were no courses.
2 Q. It says here that in addition to construction
3 work, security plans need to be drafted. What does
4 that mean, according to your military knowledge?
5 A. It means that the surrounding area needs to
6 be secured, because it is logical if you put a unit --
7 accommodate a unit in a particular building to spend
8 the winter there, then the surrounding area has to have
9 security provided to prevent any surprises, because
10 tension by then was running high between the Muslims
11 and Croats, and, therefore, also between the BH army
12 and the HVO. And in the immediate vicinity -- or,
13 rather, not so far away were units of the Yugoslav
14 People's Army or the Serb forces by then.
15 Q. So this document is intended partly to plan
16 for logistic support; doesn't it?
17 A. Yes. We can see from this that serious
18 efforts were made to structure units belonging to the
19 Muslim people.
20 Q. From the testimony so far, we have already
21 heard that there were no barracks, but here in the
22 third paragraph reference is made to the need for food
23 to be prepared for commands and lower units. Does that
24 mean that there were people grouped in large numbers?
25 Were barracks used?
1 A. In Travnik, for instance, the barracks were
2 used, but in other cases other existing facilities were
3 adapted for use as barracks, and this was the
4 widespread practice in this area.
5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: May we distribute this
6 document as well, please?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D25/2.
8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
9 Q. This document issued by Ivan Santic, the
10 President of the HVO government in Vitez, on the 28th
11 of December, 1992, refers to what you have just said.
12 I will read out part of this document.
13 "Regarding the accommodation of HVO forces
14 and forces -- and the armed forces, the HVO government
15 has taken a very explicit position. The army and the
16 command should be moved to the barracks in Travnik,
17 Zenica, Busovaca and Kiseljak, and the schools and
18 hotels should be vacated."
19 The last paragraph says, "The military units
20 of the BH armed forces are placed in the regional
21 schools in Preocica, and Kruscica and in private houses
22 owned by Mr. Miso Andric in Kruscica. A large number
23 of soldiers have been accommodated, which is preventing
24 the beginning of the school year, and at the same time
25 this contributes significantly to growing interethnic
1 tension. A parallel civil police is being formed, as
2 well as a Muslim TV. All that is done in practice is
3 leading to even greater rifts between these two
4 peoples, even though the official policy of
5 Mr. Izetbegovic pays lip-service to togetherness."
6 And on page 2 it says, "We propose that a
7 meeting be urgently organised in which the following
8 should participate: The commander of the regional HVO
9 command, the commander of the regional headquarters of
10 the BH armed forces, the head of the defence office in
11 the government of Vitez, the commander of the municipal
12 staff of the armed forces of Vitez" -- this is missing
13 in the translation -- "chairman of the coordination
14 committee for the protection of Muslims in Vitez, and
15 chairman of the temporary civil HVO war government of
17 So this refers to all the things that you
18 have mentioned regarding problems with the
19 accommodation of troops in schools, and that it was
20 difficult for schools to start working and for civilian
21 life to be organised.
22 So this is a document dated the 28th of
23 December, 1992, and all these bodies referred to here,
24 that is both military HVO bodies, and on the other
25 hand, the bodies of the armed forces, then the civilian
1 bodies of the HVO and the civilian body of the
2 coordination committee of the Muslim government, at the
3 time all of these are co-existing in Vitez, with the
4 exception of the regional command of the armed forces
5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
6 A. I think this may be an error. This was the
7 municipal command, not the regional command, but all
8 the others were functioning within the territory of
9 Vitez municipality.
10 Q. You were aware of these problems, in view of
11 your activities in the press service, and also as a
12 member of the command of the Vitez brigade, did you
13 receive complaints of this kind from the government?
14 A. Yes, or I was personally present at
15 government meetings, or alternatively, I would get the
16 conclusions from those meetings in writing.
17 Q. So this problem did crop up on a number of
18 occasions and attempts were made to deal with it?
19 A. Yes. I think this was a problem that
20 appeared on the agenda of each meeting of the
21 government in Vitez.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we'll take now
23 a 20-minute break. We'll reconvene at 10.50.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac, before
2 you start, I should tell Defence counsel and the
3 Prosecution that I have just had a meeting with the
4 Deputy Registrar and the head of the division on
5 translation and interpretation, and they, of course,
6 conveyed to me the worries of the interpreters. We
7 have excellent interpreters, but in spite of that, of
8 course, they are not able to follow if they are not
9 provided with a copy of the documents. So I would like
10 to make an appeal, first of all, to give the
11 interpreters the documents in the original and possibly
12 also the English translation anytime a document is
13 tendered in evidence; and secondly, also, to slow down,
14 because, you know, the transcript is in English, and if
15 we miss most of the words because of the quick pace of
16 what is being said, then, of course, this means that
17 the Court will base itself on a transcript which is not
18 absolutely accurate, and this is not the fault of the
19 interpreters or the stenotypists or stenographers but
20 only because of the excessive velocity of the pace.
21 So if you can slow down, also I hope the
22 witness will slow down, and also you wait a few seconds
23 before you ask a question. Thank you.
24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I can give copies of
25 the documents now.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: If it is possible, I
3 can give the copies of the documents now.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please. Yes. And also
5 one final point: The Deputy Registrar, Mr. Heintz, is
6 suggesting that there should be a meeting of all
7 Defence counsel with him and the head of the
8 interpretation division possibly on Thursday when we
9 are not holding any hearing so that you can have an
10 exchange of views about the question of interpretation
11 and so on. This is for the sake of accuracy in our
12 transcript. All right.
13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: This is a set of the
14 documents I am going to use during this next hour, so I
15 can give it to the usher for the interpretation unit.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
18 Q. One more time, good morning, Mr. Cilic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. We will now review another document of 27
21 January, 1993.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D26/2.
23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
24 Q. This is a document which was compiled during
25 the meeting between UNHCR representatives, UNPROFOR,
1 SDA party, BH army, the HVO government, the HVO
2 headquarters, and public security station in Vitez.
3 In the body of text, under 2: A joint police
4 station is to be reactivated in Vitez. The structure
5 of the employees will be ethnically balanced. Given
6 the specific conditions at the moment, the police
7 station will work according to the rules which are to
8 be agreed on at a level of Vitez municipality
9 government. Mr. Mirko Samija and Mr. Saban Mahmutovic
10 are in charge of implementation of this assignment
11 which shall be carried out immediately.
12 Item 3, in order to overcome the current
13 problems in the Vitez municipality, a temporary
14 municipal war government will be established which
15 shall be ethnically balanced. Ivan Santic, Fuad
16 Kaknjo, Dragan Rados, and Midhat Varupa will make a
17 proposal within five days of this meeting.
18 Number 4, commanders of the HVO Brigade,
19 Mr. Mario Cerkez and Mr. Esad Dzenanovic of the BH army
20 shall proceed with an exchange of prisoners and goods
21 and they will remove the illegally set up checkpoints.
22 From this document, we can see that attempts
23 were continually made to re-establish the joint police
24 station and joint government.
25 A. Yes. This is one of these attempts, and
1 attempts were made continuously.
2 Q. The composition of attendees at this meeting
3 and those who tried to re-establish the joint
4 government are Ivan Santic, Dragan Rados, Fuad Kaknjo,
5 and Midhat Varupa.
6 A. These four persons were all members of the
7 initial government. Ivan Santic and Dragan Rados are
8 ethnic Croats and Fuad Kaknjo and Midhat Varupa are
9 ethnic Muslims.
10 Q. Can you recall, in item 4, it is said that an
11 immediate exchange of prisoners was to take place as
12 well as confiscated goods. Do you know what kind of
13 exchange it was?
14 A. I think that one of the main reasons for this
15 meeting was an incident which took place in the area
16 called Kruscica. On that day, at the checkpoint which
17 is called Fatina Vodica, which is in Kruscica, members
18 of the BH army disarmed and arrested HVO soldiers who
19 were coming back to Vitez after they were relieved of
20 duty, and they were deployed there in that area of
21 Kruscica where there were some logistics facilities of
22 the HVO. I don't know the exact number, but I think
23 that there were ten or twelve. They were taken
24 prisoner, they were disarmed and then taken, and the
25 members of the BH army took them away.
1 So this is why I believe that partly this
2 meeting, which had been planned earlier, was then held
4 Q. Also, it is mentioned to dismantle the
5 illegal checkpoints.
6 A. Yes. This was a constant problem, and with
7 the Court's permission, let me add something that may
8 not be strictly part of your question, but I remember
9 this meeting very well and this situation.
10 Q. Go ahead.
11 A. At a meeting, agreement was reached in
12 principle to make the joint government and police
13 jointly and to rename it the war presidency and war
14 government of Vitez. The Croatian side accepted it,
15 and it requested of the Muslims to create an oasis of
16 peace in this area of Bosnia, of Central Bosnia, and
17 this government would work by using both seals. This
18 was not strictly legal, but the Croatian side accepted
19 this. So that the documents going to the Croatian side
20 would bear a Croatian seal and those documents that
21 would go, let's say, to Zenica or Sarajevo, would be
22 stamped with the Muslim seal, and those documents which
23 would go to international organisations would have both
24 seals. This was to be a piece of cunning, so to speak,
25 on the part of both Croatian and Muslim sides in Vitez
1 to keep the peace and to also satisfy the needs of both
2 Croatian and Muslim governments in Vitez and also to
3 make it satisfactory for the International Community.
4 However, I have to say that this was never
5 implemented even though this was agreed on at this
6 meeting of 27 January, 1993.
7 Q. And the municipal war government which is
8 mentioned in item 3, it was not called Croatian or HVO?
9 A. No, it was literally called Vitez
10 Municipality - The Municipal War Government of Vitez.
11 So it was ethnically neutral.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you. In connection with
13 what you have just said regarding this meeting, that it
14 was held because of the capture and disarming of a
15 group of soldiers in Kruscica, the HVO soldiers, that
16 is, in that connection, I would like you to look at
17 another document. Thank you.
18 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
21 Q. So this is with respect to that incident of
22 27 January, 1993; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That means on 27 January, 1993, in Kruscica,
25 near Fatina Vodica and the fire station in Stari Vitez,
1 the following materiel and technical equipment were
2 confiscated by the BH army.
3 1. A TAM minibus, licence plate TR 283-12.
4 Further, were any weapons taken from the
6 A. Yes. The weapons are usually the first thing
7 that are taken, and they were.
8 Q. Regarding the weapons, can the witness please
9 be shown the following document? Sorry. Can we have
10 the usher's assistance?
11 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D28/2.
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
13 Q. This is also a report of 27 January, 1993,
14 which was compiled by Ivan Budimir, security officer.
15 Do you know Ivan Budimir?
16 A. Yes. He was my good friend. Unfortunately,
17 he is no longer alive.
18 Q. Do you recognise his signature?
19 A. Yes, I recognise his signature, I know him,
20 and I'm sorry that he is no longer alive.
21 Q. In the body of text, it says that on 27
22 January, 1993, in Kruscica, a regular shift change was
23 carried out. On the way back from Kruscica, a TAM
24 minibus van, licence plate TR 283-12, was stopped at
25 1230 hours. It was driven by Stipo Livancic who was
1 driving all the members of the shift. All occupants of
2 the vehicle were disarmed and the minibus was
4 The following weapons were confiscated: four
5 pieces of Kalashnikov rifles, one light machine gun,
6 three pieces of Thompson automatic rifle, five pieces
7 of Sokac, one piece of semi-automatic rifle, two M-48
8 rifles, one pistol, another pistol, hand grenades, 15
10 Do you recall whether these weapons were
12 A. I remember very well the whole situation.
13 The minibus was returned, and the weapons, despite
14 negotiations which went on for several days, were never
16 Q. These were the weapons that had been carried
17 by the people who had been stopped and detained?
18 A. For a while, they were detained in a room
19 which was controlled by the BH army soldiers. However,
20 Colonel Tihomir Blaskic and members of the Viteska
21 Brigade and the civilian authorities and through
22 contacts with the Muslim authorities and the armed
23 forces, the soldiers were released fairly quickly.
24 Q. You said that the Viteska Battalion was
25 deployed in Kruscica, that is, members of the Stjepan
1 Tomasevic Brigade?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where were they accommodated?
4 A. They were accommodated in two motels called
5 Lovac and Plavac.
6 Q. How many people are we talking here?
7 A. I think that the whole shift consisted of
8 about 15 men. That is based on the list that you have
9 also just provided.
10 Q. Further along in the body of text, it says
11 that the following weapons were confiscated from the
12 regional policemen in the course of the day, and these
13 policemen were Zlatko Ivankovic, Ilija Santic, and Mijo
14 Dzotle: 7.62 millimetre Ciganka automatic rifle, two
15 pieces; one Kalashnikov automatic rifle; one Zbrojovka
16 pistol, one pistol, and 150 Deutschmarks.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: I don't think it is necessary
18 for you to read it out because everybody has a copy of
19 this document, so for the sake of time, you could
20 simply ask questions of the witness.
21 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
24 Q. Do you recall that event?
25 A. Yes, I do recall, because on 27 January,
1 1993, when the incident in Kruscica took place, in the
2 morning we knew that another checkpoint in Mahala had
3 been set up because this is Stari Vitez, that is Gornji
4 Vitez, Upper Vitez, this is an area also known
5 as Mahala, where their local government, the armed
6 forces headquarters and the military police were all
7 set up.
8 Q. Further on, Drago Sliskovic from the Stjepan
9 Tomasevic Brigade command and was stopped at this
10 checkpoint and weapons were also received from him.
11 This was a member of the brigade command. Do you
12 recall that incident? And it was the same day.
13 A. Yes, I do remember it, because this was a
14 colleague and acquaintance of mine who was in the same
15 brigade. Except for these two incidents, there were
16 additional incidents, a total of about 15 incidents on
17 that day, and I think that here just the major ones
18 were listed here.
19 Q. All this was on 27 January?
20 A. Yes. And the reason for this incident on
21 27 January was because the schools which had a Croatian
22 curriculum had stopped working on that day.
23 Q. At the checkpoint near the fire station Pero
24 Petrovic's weapons, a sniper rifle and a pistol, were
25 also seized. That was -- the fire station was also
1 in -- of Vitez?
2 A. Yes. They were right next to these centres
3 of Muslim government.
4 Q. Further on it says that two radio sets were
5 also seized from Mario Garic and Zoran Jukic, as well
6 as a pistol, and a vehicle was seized by Zeljo Karin.
7 Do you recall whether the vehicle was returned?
8 A. The vehicle was returned but not the radio
10 Q. The contents of this report which is marked
11 D27, which is about seizure of weapons, also lists the
12 names of some persons from whom these weapons were
13 seized, and it also mentions that a certain amount of
14 ammunition was taken from these people, as well as some
15 personal effects. Will you please look an at these --
16 at this document under 6?
17 A. Do I not have this document in front of me.
18 The gentleman has taken it.
19 Q. Will you please look at it again? Do you
20 know any of the people listed?
21 A. More or less all of them, including the
22 driver of the mini-bus and the owner of that mini-bus,
23 who is still operating this service. Yes, they were
24 members of our units.
25 Q. In view of the large number of incidents that
1 occurred at the checkpoints over a certain period of
2 time, what was the security situation regarding the
3 citizens of Vitez?
4 A. The security situation for all citizens in
5 Vitez was below any acceptable standards, which means
6 it was very, very poor. In fact, people moved only in
7 extreme necessity, in the evening and at night, because
8 there were so many people under arms moving around in
9 the municipality, belonging to all kinds of units,
10 formal and informal ones. Alcohol was consumed
11 excessively. There were groups prone to plunder,
12 destruction, devastation, so that the situation was
13 alarming, to put it mildly.
14 Q. When talking about citizens, you are implying
15 both Muslims and Croats?
16 A. Yes, of course. I mean all the citizens of
17 Vitez, because at the time people had still not been
18 evicted from their homes, nor had they moved from their
19 houses, with the exception of a certain number of Serbs
20 who had left the municipality of Vitez.
21 Q. What were the reasons for this situation?
22 You mentioned alcohol, the abundance of weapons. What
23 about the refugees coming in?
24 A. There were refugees and their troubles also
25 added to our own troubles, because there was a large
1 concentration of exiled people, Muslims, in the first
2 place, coming from the area of Western Bosnia, which at
3 the time were fully under the occupation of the
4 Yugoslav People's Army, or better still, of the local
5 Serbs, that is the Bosnian Serbs. And this large
6 concentration of refugees existed in Central Bosnia,
7 whereas the exiled Croats from those regions abandoned
8 Central Bosnia and looked for places with greater
9 safety. They used the Central Bosnia in transit, and
10 they went towards the south of Bosnia-Herzegovina where
11 there was a much larger concentration and share of
12 Croats in the total population, and they went to
13 Croatia and also further on to other European countries
14 where many of them had relatives and friends, whereas
15 the Muslims mostly stayed on in the area of Central
17 Q. How was that situation affected by the fact
18 that a large -- an enormous amount of arms were
20 A. Simply things were out of control. There was
21 black marketeering in weapons so one could buy weapons
22 even from the Serbs on the frontlines. Then there were
23 certain underground channels along which weapons were
24 sold. And individuals helped people, and it was
25 impossible to make sure those people were physically
1 and mentally capable of carrying arms.
2 Q. The army, or, rather, the HVO and the
3 military police of the HVO, did they attempt to
4 establish some kind of law and order?
5 A. Attempts were made repeatedly, and I remember
6 numerous orders coming from the Operative Zone command,
7 through the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade command and later
8 on the Vitez Brigade command, instructing certain
9 services within the army and the military police, in
10 the first place, to control the peace and to try and
11 establish at least a minimum degree of law and order in
12 Vitez municipality.
13 Q. Was the civilian police operating?
14 A. I was just going to say that, that there was
15 the civilian police as well, as well as the municipal
16 authorities who sought in every possible way to
17 maintain law and order, because this situation put the
18 citizens in a very difficult position, and many of them
19 sought ways to abandon the area.
20 I think it was in January that the municipal
21 government, the Croatian government in Vitez, took the
22 decision to form an intervention squad. This
23 intervention squad was composed of selected young men
24 who had been tested in terms of their morals and also
25 physically, they were mentally in good health, they had
1 no criminal record, and they were ready to intervene
2 physically and with force of arms to maintain law and
3 order. A decision was even taken that they should have
4 certain compensation. At the time it was quite
5 considerable, because salaries were very low, whereas I
6 think the members of the squad received up to 400 or
7 500 German marks, which was an extremely high salary
8 for a month. For comparison's sake, the regular
9 salaries in enterprises were about 50 marks.
10 Heading this intervention squad was an
11 individual, an exceptional individual in every sense of
12 the word. He was called Kreso Garic, and I think this
13 intervention's platoon achieved enviable results, at
14 least in the town, urban area itself. It restored
15 peace and security to a level that could be tolerated.
16 Q. Who was responsible for inside inspections
17 for arrests, for the initiation of criminal proceedings
18 in relation to the members of the army? Was this done
19 by the civilian police?
20 A. I'm not sure that I will be able to answer
21 this question of yours, but I don't think that the
22 civilian police could interfere with any act that
23 involved a military person.
24 Q. Another question: You said that the civilian
25 police was functioning but still an intervention squad
1 had to be formed to restore order, which means that it
2 wasn't functioning.
3 A. It wasn't functioning. It didn't have the
4 strength nor the power. I just found the date that
5 this intervention squad was formed, on the 25th of
6 February, and it was operative until the conflict
7 escalated on the 16th of April, '93.
8 Q. Here is another announcement for the public,
9 so will you please look at it and tell me whether you
10 remember it?
11 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
14 Q. This is a document of the Croatian Defence
15 Council of Novi Travnik, number 12/93. It was compiled
16 on behalf of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade. I can't
17 see the signature?
18 A. I think it must have been Pero Jurisic, so
19 please take that under reservation.
20 Q. Do you recall this event?
21 A. I do very well, because it was a typical one,
22 and as we were told in the press service, by HVO
23 representatives from Novi Travnik and which was
24 supported by Colonel Blaskic, this was meant to be a
25 warning to everyone that no such incidents would be
1 tolerated against the Muslim people. There would be no
2 leniency for any representative of the Croats,
3 regardless of the fact whether he was a member of the
4 HVO, a policeman or a civilian, if he physically
5 attacked or stole from a Muslim. The aim was to try
6 and contain violence regardless of who the victim may
7 be, a Muslim, a Croat or a Serb.
8 Q. So it says here that Zoran Jukic, known as
9 Juka, from Novi Travnik was killed when resisting
10 efforts of the Novi Travnik HVO military police to
11 bring him into custody for harassing and seriously
12 wounding a Muslim citizen.
13 Did you publish this report?
14 A. Yes, we did. We broadcast it, and I can tell
15 you that the investigation about this murder and this
16 incident was completed post-haste, and the people who
17 killed this person were acquitted.
18 Q. To clarify this, Zoran Jukic was a Croat?
19 A. Yes, and the Croatian policemen who shot him
20 were also Croats.
21 Q. Will you please look at another document
23 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
1 Q. This is a document of the Stjepan Tomasevic
2 Brigade, the 2nd Battalion, a document compiled by Ivan
3 Budimi, the officer of security and information. The
4 document says that groups and individuals wearing
5 uniforms and with HVO insignia are plundering socially
6 and more often privately owned property. During the
7 robberies they use all the methods of criminals. Then
8 it goes on to say that their main objective is to
9 loot. However, no effort is being made to put an end
10 to this, their criminal offences put additional strain
11 on the already tense interethnic relations. Then
12 several examples are given.
13 We can see that individual members of the HVO
14 were arrested while looting houses, committing robbery
15 in a state of intoxication, aggravated robbery, and
16 those names are listed there.
17 Were attempts made to put an end to crime
18 within HVO ranks?
19 A. I think that very resolute measures were
20 taken, but in view of the situation in which we were
21 living when we were surrounded with so many soldiers,
22 units that were out of control, people who, wearing
23 uniforms and insignia, committed criminal offences,
24 better results could not have been expected in spite of
25 the resolute measures taken. I think that
1 Colonel Tihomir Blaskic insisted in particularly on law
2 and order and discipline among members of the HVO,
3 because only then could the citizens trust this army,
4 because if the army commits misdeeds and robberies,
5 then it cannot be considered to belong to any people.
6 However, the results could not be satisfactory for the
7 citizens of Vitez or the surroundings, because these
8 criminal activities were quite well organised, and this
9 applies in particular to certain groups of criminals.
10 Q. In conclusion, it is stated that resolute
11 steps should be taken to stop these occurrences,
12 particularly because of interethnic relations.
13 Are you aware of further instructions given
14 to the Vitez brigade as to how they should behave and
15 whether proceedings were taken against those who
16 perpetrated criminal acts within the HVO?
17 A. I must comment on this. Mr. Ivan Budimir
18 addressed a similar document to the Bosniak side,
19 because there were occasions of criminals joining ranks
20 on both sides, that's Croats and Muslim criminals
21 acting together, and he wanted both the civilian and
22 military authorities to act jointly to suppress crime.
23 At the same time, we were trying to find a
24 way to prevent members of our units committing criminal
25 acts, and one of the measures taken was the prohibition
1 on carrying weapons in town, the prohibition on wearing
2 uniforms when people were not on duty, and some other
3 measures were taken. Of course, some of these measures
4 did have a positive effect, but as I said, not
5 sufficiently so to satisfy the citizens.
6 Q. The persons mentioned here, there are several
7 names. They are all Croats and they're all HVO
9 A. Yes. Proceedings -- summary proceedings were
10 taken against them. Many of them ended up in the
11 prison in Busovaca.
12 Q. One more document linked to this same area.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
16 Q. This is another report of the Stjepan
17 Tomasevic Brigade, 2nd Battalion, the Viteska, the
18 Vitez Battalion, on the 22nd of January, 1993, compiled
19 by Ivan Budimir, and referring to some incidents, such
20 as throwing of explosive devices in town in the zone of
21 responsibility of the 2nd Battalion.
22 Were such occurrences frequent and were any
23 attempts made to prevent them?
24 A. They were very frequent, and that is perhaps
25 the reason why, out of all these mentioned, I can only
1 remember the shell thrown into Zoran Krizanovic's
2 apartment in the centre of town, because these other
3 incidents referred to here did not have more serious
4 consequences, and that is probably the reason why I
5 haven't memorised them, because there were dozens and
6 dozens of them occurring on a daily basis.
7 Q. So you do not know who the damaged parties
8 were; it is just stated that these devices were thrown
9 at certain public places, the Red Cross building, the
10 civilian MUP.
11 A. You see, one can conclude from this what the
12 intention was. The Red Cross building in the centre of
13 Vitez was under the control of the Croats. The health
14 clinic was already functioning on an ethnic basis
15 because the Muslims had their own health centre in
16 Mahala. The civilian MUP is in the centre of town, a
17 building right next to the headquarters of the
18 municipal government. At the time, only Croatian
19 policemen were there. Also, the apartment of Zoran
20 Krizanovic, which was hit with a hand-held rocket
21 launcher, he was a Croat, and this was in the centre of
22 town. The perpetrators were not discovered, so one
23 cannot explicitly claim who they are.
24 Q. So there were such incidents of which both
25 Muslims and Croats were victims?
1 A. Yes. There were incidents all over Vitez, it
2 was chaotic, and one could not attribute them to ethnic
4 Q. Did the Bosniak police carry out on-site
5 investigations when any such act was perpetrated?
6 A. Any crime or incident that occurred, attempts
7 were made to coordinate the investigations and to
8 prevent such criminal acts, so that certain points were
9 controlled by the HVO, others by the Muslims, and
10 others by both of them together. But obviously, both
11 within the police and military ranks, there were
12 criminals whose interests were furthered by this
13 widespread crime. To what extent the Bosniak side
14 sought to prevent crime, I really don't know. I don't
15 have the necessary information to tell you.
16 Q. Let me just ask you whether you perhaps
17 remember the killing of Bernard Kovacevic and Ivan Laus
18 in the village of Cajdras at the military police
20 A. I know that this happened, I didn't know
21 those young men, but the incident resounded throughout
22 Central Bosnia, and all the media commented on it, of
23 course differently and each in its own way.
24 Q. So these were members of the HVO military
25 police of the Jure Francetic Brigade?
1 A. Yes, it is a Croatian police unit.
2 Q. We are moving on to 19 October, 1992. At
3 that time, you were the acting chief at the HVO
5 A. I was in the command staff.
6 Q. Yes. And where were you sent?
7 A. Fifteen days after I joined the command as a
8 political officer, on orders of Colonel Tihomir Blaskic
9 which went through the municipal staff and other
10 staffs, Mario Cerkez, the chief of staff, I was sent on
11 this date, 19 October, to a seminar in Busovaca which
12 was organised by the representatives of the Red Cross
13 in Geneva.
14 Q. What was the topic of this seminar?
15 A. This seminar was held for the representatives
16 of the HVO, and as I found out -- and this was a
17 full-day seminar; a similar one had been also organised
18 for the representatives of the BH army, and the topic
19 of the seminar was the International Conventions on the
20 Laws of War. We received a lot of promotional material
21 in English and Croatian. We also saw films on the
22 activities of the Red Cross, and many of us, for the
23 first time, learned more about the history of the Red
24 Cross and its goals and ...
25 Q. Did this seminar also include a discussion of
1 the Geneva Conventions?
2 A. Yes. It was about the rights of prisoners,
3 about the rights of prisoners of war, and I have to say
4 that this seminar left a great impression on me. I
5 asked myself, why are they showing us this? because
6 they were showing us a number of films from countries
7 in Africa, South America, and they were very disturbing
9 Q. And you thought that this could not happen in
10 your region?
11 A. Yes. I thought that it was very far removed,
12 and I thought that it could never happen in our
13 country. But we received a lot of materials, and I
14 distributed it to our soldiers, all these instructions,
15 and to the commanding officers. I thought that they
16 would never be used, but it turned out that they were
17 quite needed.
18 Q. After that, you went back to Vitez?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When was this?
21 A. The seminar finished between 3.00 and 3.30,
22 and in my car, I started back home. It's about 12
23 kilometres. But about four kilometres down the road, I
24 was stopped because there was a backup. I stopped my
25 car and I came out and asked what was going on, and
1 they said that there was a traffic accident. Then I
2 parked on the shoulder of the road and I started
3 walking home, and the backup of vehicles was about 300
5 I arrived at the site of the accident, and I
6 was told that three people were killed in this accident
7 from Bila, this is in the Vitez municipality, and also
8 another person was seriously injured.
9 My friend, the public prosecutor, Vlado
10 Miskovic, was present on site. He is now a federal
11 prosecutor, that is in the Federation of Bosnia and
13 While he was doing the on-site investigation,
14 he asked me how I was going to proceed to Vitez, and I
15 told him that I had a car, and then he said, "But don't
16 you know that a barricade had been set up in Ahmici, a
17 barricade set up by the BH army members, and that road
18 is blocked?" I told him that I did not know, and I was
19 almost in a panic, I was very tired, I was hungry, I
20 didn't know how I was going to get back home because
21 there were no other ways to get home. Then with Vlado
22 Miskovic, I decided to take a liberty and pass the
23 entire column and join him. He was there escorted by
24 the civilian police. So I did so. I went back to my
25 car, and in the car, I joined them.
1 A number of drivers who were also waiting to
2 pass reacted very noisily at this liberty, this licence
3 I took. However, I just proceeded and joined the
4 vehicle of the public prosecutor, and then we
5 proceeded. From there to the point where the barricade
6 had been set up was another 1.5 kilometres, and there
7 we were stopped by -- we were stopped, both vehicles,
8 the public prosecutor's vehicle and his police escort
9 vehicle were stopped, and I stopped as the third
10 vehicle. There were about 15 soldiers which were armed
11 to the teeth, and they were on the road and in the
12 Catholic cemetery which was adjoining the road. Part
13 of the concrete fence had been broken down and a
14 machine gun was set up inside the cemetery.
15 Now, this was a winter day and dusk was
16 falling. However, I could see the soldiers and this
17 machine gun nest because it had not gotten that dark
18 that I could not recognise the faces of soldiers.
19 Q. Did you also see trenches to the right of the
21 A. On the right-hand side, there was a group of
22 four or five soldiers. There was also some shrubbery
23 there. I didn't look very much. I didn't want to
24 provoke them by peering in that direction. However,
25 this part of the cemetery was right in front of me
1 because there is a curve in the road, and as I stopped,
2 as I pulled to a stop, I saw those soldiers and those
3 who were right in front of me because they were right
4 there at the curve and at the top of the Catholic
6 Q. And what was the barricade, the barrier, made
8 A. It was something that was -- that used to be
9 called hedgehog, which is a contraption made out of
10 iron bars which prevents vehicles, even heavy vehicles,
11 from passing. A vehicle can pass only if one of these
12 hedgehogs is removed. In addition to these soldiers
13 and these hedgehogs, there were several anti-tank
14 mines, and I had enough military knowledge, having
15 served in the military in my own day, that there were
16 no other barriers.
17 Q. So you were let through.
18 A. When the police vehicle which was escorting
19 the public prosecutor was let through and the team of
20 investigators, then my turn came, and they took my
21 documents, and when the policeman asked me to open the
22 trunk of my car, one member of the group from the
23 cemetery said loudly enough so that I could hear him,
24 "Let him through. I know him." So there was no
25 further control of me, and I was let through and
1 allowed to proceed to Vitez.
2 Q. Now, on the way to Vitez, did you notice
3 anything unusual?
4 A. By the time I arrived in Vitez, it was
5 completely dark. I live in a part of Vitez which later
6 on became the frontline between the Croatian and
7 Bosnian side, Mahala, and I had a garage where I kept
8 my car another 150 metres farther away towards the
9 town. This was sort of the demarcation zone between us
10 and the Muslims. So I had a habit of parking and then
11 going to the command staff, and I did so in order to
12 report on what I did at the seminar.
13 However, when I approached the garage that
14 night, I pulled my car to a stop, and I heard some
15 noises, some noises that sounded like weapons, and
16 somebody said, "Stop. Don't budge." So I said, "I'm
17 not budging." And they said, "What do you want? What
18 are you doing here?" And I said, "It's my garage
19 here. I'm trying to leave the car there."
20 Q. Whose army was it?
21 A. I could not see them, but based on the
22 location, they could only have been members of the BH
23 army because where they were standing was already the
24 territory which unofficially was under their control.
25 However, as I assumed that these were young men who
1 knew me because we were neighbours, then I was allowed
2 to park the car in my garage and I was not bothered, I
3 was allowed to go back home, and this was another
4 distance 400 metres in total.
5 Q. What happened next in Vitez, that is, in
7 A. That night, after I put my car in the garage,
8 when I went to the command post, the commander, Mario
9 Cerkez, told me that a similar checkpoint was also set
10 up in Grbavica, near the construction company Bosna.
11 This is an intersection where the transit roads -- a
12 detour is around the town of Vitez and the road
13 proceeds to Travnik. However, Mario also told me that
14 there were intense negotiations going on between the BH
15 army and the HVO, civilian authorities of both sides,
16 and that the representatives of UNPROFOR and UNHCR were
17 mediating these negotiations. However, I was told to
18 go home and rest.
19 Q. Were there any other incidents with respect
20 to the HVO and the BH army, conflicts?
21 A. Yes, the conflicts escalated the next day
22 because the negotiations did not produce any results,
23 and so the police units and HVO unit which was on its
24 way to Jajce, which at that time was in a critical
25 situation because it was surrounded by the Serbian
1 forces, they smashed this barricade. They physically
2 dismantled the barricade in Ahmici. This was a very
3 fierce conflict, and later I learned that this
4 checkpoint in Ahmici was reinforced by other forces, so
5 there weren't 15 people any longer. In some estimates,
6 there were up -- and in my view, there was up to 50
7 people there, and there was a fierce conflict, but
8 fortunately, there were very few people injured. And
9 near the village of Grbavica, the BH army members
10 dismantled the barricade themselves, so there was no
11 conflict there.
12 Q. But members of the Viteska Brigade did take
13 part in the physical dismantling of this barricade?
14 A. No, we were not tasked with doing so. It was
15 the military police of the HVO which was involved in
16 dismantling this barricade, assisted by members of the
17 unit which was going to Jajce from Busovaca and
19 Q. Were the village watches involved in this
21 A. No. They had a different role. They did not
22 even appear or they did not have any role in this.
23 They could not have had any role because their weapons
24 were very primitive, they did not have equipment, and
25 so it was not possible for them to take part in this
1 conflict of that size, and this was the first serious
2 conflict between the BH army and the HVO.
3 Q. Do you know anything about the blockade of
4 the command post of the HVO?
5 A. Yes, I do know, because at that same time,
6 while an attempt was being made to lift the blockade of
7 this communication line near Ahmici, members of the
8 Vitezovi Brigade also blocked the Territorial Defence
9 headquarters in Vitez, and members of the BH army
10 blocked the regional staff of the HVO in Kruscica, that
11 is, which was in the lawless (phoen) facility, so those
12 two command posts were blocked, yes.
13 Q. So de facto this was the operational zone
15 A. Yes, even though it was not called that way.
16 Q. What about Kruscica? That was a dominant
17 position, right?
18 A. Yes. That was where the headquarters of the
19 operational zone was.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: We will take now a 20-minute
22 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac,
25 before you resume your examination-in-chief we have a
1 query. We are wondering why you're not sticking to the
2 chronological order, because we went up to April --
3 sorry, January/February '93 and now we're going back to
4 October '92. Is there a reason for that or do you
5 intend to follow an order that is not chronological in
6 your questions?
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No, but what happened
8 was that I tried to group the problems for the Court,
9 so I selected groups of documents. That was more of an
10 introduction. Now I will be going on to more specific
11 events linked to the indictment, and these are elements
12 which I feel that the Prosecution has also referred to
13 in his case, although in a different manner. So this
14 is more of a background rather than any chronological
15 order of events.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
18 Q. Mr. Cilic, we broke off when you said that
19 the HVO command was blocked, that is the regional
20 command in Kruscica and the TO in the secondary school
21 centre in Vitez. How was this problem resolved; do you
23 A. It was resolved by lifting the blockade of
24 the regional headquarters at Lovac, as well as the TO
25 headquarters in the secondary school, and then the TO
1 staff abandoned the secondary school and moved to Stari
2 Vitez and was based there in the part known as Mahala.
3 Q. What happened with the regional HVO
4 headquarters? Did it move?
5 A. After that, I don't exactly remember how much
6 after, a day or two after, it also moved to the hotel
7 in Vitez. Perhaps it is worth mentioning that a very
8 important incident occurred also on the 20th at the
9 crossed roads between Dolac and the road leading to
10 Guca Gora, when Ivica Stojak, an HVO commander was
11 killed. Members of the BH army shot at him in the
12 back. They had a checkpoint there on the road between
13 Travnik and Guca Gora.
14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: May I ask the usher for
15 his assistance to distribute this document so that the
16 witness can look at it?
17 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
20 Q. It says an announcement issued on the 22nd of
21 October, 1992 in the presence of the UNHCR and
22 UNPROFOR, and representatives of the armed forces of
23 Vitez, the HVO, the HVO headquarters and
24 representatives of religious communities, Father Anto
25 Tomas and Omer Efendija Mestrovac. And the agreement
1 was that all remaining barricades in Vitez municipality
2 should be removed, and primarily at Kruscica and the
3 crossroads with the road leading to Zenica.
4 Who held the barricade in Kruscica?
5 A. It was under the control of the Muslim
7 Q. And the intersection with the road to
9 A. Yes. This is a turnoff for the road to
10 Veternica and this barricade was under the control of
11 the HVO.
12 Q. It is also stated here that joint control
13 will be conducted by commanders of the HVO and the
14 armed forces of Vitez in the presence of UNPROFOR, and
15 representatives of the church and the Islamic religious
16 community, the deadline being 1800 hours.
17 Point 3 says that the regional HVO
18 headquarters in Kruscica needs to be released, and all
19 prisoners in the Lovac Motel should be released. So
20 this is the HVO headquarters; isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The commander of the armed forces also
23 guarantees that barricades will not be put up again in
24 the same area. That's what he means; doesn't he?
25 A. Yes, but this decision was not respected.
1 Q. Also, the commander of the HVO takes upon
2 himself to consult with HVO commander for central
3 Bosnia for the purpose of setting up a mixed commission
4 of the HVO and the armed forces, which would establish
5 the consequences of the conflict at the Plavac hotel.
6 That hotel is also situated in Kruscica; isn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Then paragraph 5 says that after the blockade
9 has been lifted in Vitez, as well as the blockade of
10 the regional HVO headquarters, the rear command of the
11 armed forces captured by the HVO forces would be
13 So the TO in the secondary school centre was
14 under blockade too and that blockade had to be lifted?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You are familiar with this event and the
18 A. Yes. It was published by the media and
19 broadcast on a number of occasions.
20 Q. At the time the High Commissioner for
21 Refugees' office was in Vitez; wasn't it?
22 A. Yes, the High Commissioner for Refugees had
23 their offices, and the British battalion was based in
25 Q. Why was the High Commissioner for Refugees
1 based in Vitez, do you know?
2 A. The reason is clear, because there were a
3 large number of people exiled by the Serb forces
4 arriving in Vitez in the late autumn of 1992, and there
5 were about 5,000 of these people, these exiles. They
6 were mostly Bosniaks coming from Western Bosnia, and
7 later on particularly from the area of Jajce.
8 Q. Were those Muslim refugees received by the
9 Croatian authorities? Were any facilities provided for
10 their accommodation?
11 A. I think that the humaneness we showed was of
12 a high level. We saw them as poor people who had lost
13 everything, who had been deprived of their homes and
14 property. Many of them had been physically abused as
15 well, and I think that all of us in Vitez, regardless
16 of the ethnic group we belonged to, were willing to
17 help as far as our possibilities allowed.
18 Considerable assistance to the refugees, to
19 the displaced people, were given by the official
20 authorities who made available to them various
21 facilities for their accommodation.
22 By way of illustration, let me say that the
23 kindergarten stopped working. This was one of the most
24 attractive ones in Central Bosnia. It happens to be 20
25 or 30 metres from my home. Refugees from Prijedor were
1 accommodated there, specifically a large Muslim village
2 called Kozarac in Prijedor municipality, the entire
3 population of which had been expelled and they found
4 shelter in Vitez.
5 Q. When did the UNHCR leave Vitez?
6 A. If I remember well, they left after the
7 fierce conflict that occurred in Busovaca. I think
8 that that was when they left.
9 Q. Or was it after these conflicts?
10 A. No. Let me correct myself. After the
11 conflict that occurred on the 20th of October in Vitez
12 and in Novi Travnik, the High Commissioner and the
13 office of the UNHCR moved to Zenica, because their
14 leaders claimed that the security situation was
15 unreliable, there was repeated shooting, their vehicles
16 had come under fire. However, the leaders of these two
17 international institutions, the UNHCR and the High
18 Commissioner stayed on to assist the growing number of
19 displaced people coming to the Lasva Valley and Vitez.
20 Q. After this conflict on the 20th of October,
21 1992, do you know whether a coordination commission was
22 formed to protect the interests of citizens and for
23 what purpose?
24 A. Upon the initiative of citizens had who felt
25 increasingly exposed in Stari Vitez, and when I say
1 Stari Vitez I'm also implying the part of Stari Vitez
2 known as Mahala and the other around the parish church,
3 the Bosniak Muslims and Croats set up this coordination
4 body for the protection of the interest of citizens.
5 Heading that body upon the proposal of Muslims of that
6 area, engineer Pavlovic, Luvomir Pavlovic, was
7 elected. He was an influential and for our conditions
8 a well-off citizen, a respected Croat, citizen and
10 Q. Do you know whether that committee assisted
11 in the reconstruction of destroyed houses in Ahmici?
12 A. I said that the conflict was very fierce, a
13 number of houses were damaged, mostly Bosniak houses
14 because most of the houses there were Bosniak, and the
15 first task of that coordination body for the protection
16 of citizens was to issue an appeal to the public and to
17 institutions of the civilian government in Vitez, and
18 people with means to collect funds and material
19 assistance to repair the damages done in the conflict,
20 and this applied to homes and business premises, and
21 the response was beyond many expectations.
22 A large number of people, and I must
23 underline this, these were damaged Muslim houses, but a
24 large number of Croat citizens whole-heartedly
25 contributed to this collection campaign to repair those
1 houses and a number of those houses were repaired.
2 Q. With the help of those donations?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tell us, Jajce fell on the 24th of October;
5 didn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What did the fall of Jajce mean for the Lasva
8 Valley in particular?
9 A. The fall of Jajce can be viewed from two
10 standpoints, what it meant to the Croats and the
11 population of Central Bosnia in general. First of all,
12 it raised fears, because the road was open to the Serb
13 forces, to Lasva and Central Bosnia. According to some
14 indications, the Serbs were very keen to gain control
15 of certain military installations in that area. I
16 mean, Jajce, Novi Travnik and Vitez.
17 Another aspect of the fall of Jajce was the
18 large number of displaced people who arrived in the
19 next two or three days, crossing the hills of Lasva and
20 Travnik in the Lasva River Valley, many of them in
21 Vitez itself. Among them, several thousand Croats and
22 several thousand Muslims. The population composition
23 in Jajce with respect to Croats and Muslims, I won't
24 speak about the Serbs this time, who were numerous in
25 Jajce, but the share of Muslims and Croats was roughly
1 the same, so that there were a large number of
2 displaced both Croats and Muslims.
3 However, the Croats did not wish to stay in
4 Vitez in the Lasva Valley under any circumstances.
5 They had already experienced the horrors of war, and
6 they knew or felt that those horrors would not bypass
7 us, because the tension between the Croats and the
8 Muslims had already reached a very high level, while at
9 the same time the Serbs were nearby and they could
10 already hit the Lasva Valley with heavy weapons. So
11 this was the reason why the Croats used every effort,
12 in spite of the efforts of the local authorities for
13 them to stay, they wanted to live in the Lasva Valley
14 and they most, in fact, did.
15 I must say we wanted the able-bodied people
16 to stay behind, those with weapons, with wartime
17 experience, but they didn't want to and no one could
18 keep them there. An enormous percentage, in fact, I
19 could say more than 95 per cent of the Croats that came
20 from Jajce left in the next couple of days, the region
21 of Vitez and the Lasva Valley.
22 Contrary to this, the Bosniaks, of course to
23 their regret, had no where to go. The Croats did.
24 They wanted to go to the south of the Republic of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina where the Croats were in a
1 majority. They were also received in Croatia itself,
2 which Croats consider to be their motherland, whereas
3 the Bosniaks stayed on in Central Bosnia and shared
4 what little we had with us.
5 Q. After the fall of Jajce, the frontlines with
6 the Serbs were more or less stabilised in the area
7 where you were?
8 A. Yes. When Jajce fell, a narrow corridor was
9 captured linking Jajce to Travnik and the Lasva River
10 Valley, and it was along this corridor that we sent
11 units and material and humanitarian aid to Jajce.
12 Armoured vehicles used this corridor to take
13 the wounded. Even though Jajce had a high quality
14 wartime hospital, the most serious cases needed to be
15 taken further, and an improvised armoured vehicle was
16 made out of a standard bus, and then our skilled
17 workers covered this bus with heavy steel plate so that
18 they couldn't be hit, and village roads were used at
19 night without the lights being switched on.
20 With the fall of Jajce this corridor was
21 captured too, and the line was finally established
22 between the Serbs and the HVO and the BH army forces,
23 which was partly deployed within the territory of
24 Travnik municipality, that is the area which was
25 strategically dominant for Travnik and the Lasva
2 Q. May I now show you a map? It's in colour, so
3 it's more easier to see the ethnic composition of the
4 population in 1994, roughly at the time of the
6 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked
8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could it be placed on
9 the easel so that Mr. Cilic can point to it?
10 Q. This is a map from June 1993, but that was
11 roughly the situation as it was in April. Mr. Cilic,
12 the red areas, who do they belong to?
13 A. These were areas under the control of the
14 Serb forces, and on the other side as well. This is a
15 well-known Serb stronghold, Ozien, which resisted for a
16 long time all attempts by BH forces to capture it
17 because it was a significant interest for them.
18 Q. What about the green areas?
19 A. The green areas were controlled by the BH
20 army forces or the Muslim forces. At the time we
21 called them by different names, so when I say Muslim
22 forces I am not using it in derogatory terms, it was
23 simply the name that was used at the time.
24 Q. And the blue area?
25 A. The blue area is the Lasva Valley that we're
1 talking about. This is the Lepenica Valley, which
2 covered three municipalities, Kiseljak, Kresevo and
3 Fojnica, a part of Fojnica because most of Fojnica was
4 under the Muslim forces. And this is a part, but I
5 don't think that -- a part of Vares municipality under
6 the control of the Croats, but in fact, it was much
7 smaller than shown on the map. It is a part of the
8 Vares plateau called Dastansko and the Croats remained
9 in spite of being surrounded by Serbs and Muslims. But
10 it was much smaller in area, with a far smaller
11 population, because most of the Croats were exiled from
12 the Vares municipality.
13 And this is the Zepce area, which included in
14 addition to Zepce itself, Maglaj, Zavidovici, so that
15 it was a relatively large territory. It was known as
16 Zepce though. It was larger than Zepce itself. And up
17 there is Ursars, an area, one of the few, where the
18 Muslims and Croats waged war together against the Serbs
19 throughout. And the most serious problems between the
20 Muslims and the Croats occurred only after the end of
21 the war and those difficulties occurred at the
22 political level.
23 Q. These areas, the Lasva and the Lepenica
24 valleys, in fact, this was a unified area in January
1 A. After the conflict between the Muslims and
2 the Croats on the 25th of January, 1993, and later on
3 it was established that that was the aim of the Muslim
4 forces, that is, to intersect the road at a distance of
5 some 10 kilometres, and this remained until the end of
6 the war, one can even say up to this day. Part of this
7 territory is under Bosniak Muslim authority and the
8 rest under Croatian authority.
9 Q. Can you tell us where Kacuni and Bilalovac
11 A. Kacuni is right next to this area of
12 Busovaca, so if you're going from the northwest
13 eastwards, then after leaving Busovaca, two kilometres
14 from there is Kacuni where the Muslim units were. It
15 was a centre, which was quite a large centre, with a
16 school, a health clinic, some small businesses, so that
17 was where these units were based.
18 Q. What about Bilalovac?
19 A. Bilalovac is, if you go on along the road
20 towards Kiseljak, these areas are linked by the
21 regional road, Sarajevo, Kiseljak, Busovaca, Kaonik,
22 and then it forks off, one fork to Zenica and the other
23 to Travnik.
24 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Kacuni and
25 Bilalovac and the road in Kacuni. When did the
1 conflict occur there?
2 A. At that checkpoint -- there were numerous
3 incidents before this, and I fear I won't be able to
4 give the exact dates -- an assassination was attempted
5 against high officials of the Croats, Ignac Kostroman
6 and even Tihomir Blaskic, but things calmed down and
7 the flow of traffic was resumed in spite of high risks
8 until the conflict that occurred on the 25th of
9 January, and I think that on the 26th or the 27th of
10 January, the BH army definitely gained control of this
11 territory of about 10 kilometres.
12 Q. So that was when this kind of ethnic
13 structure was established?
14 A. Yes, because this was very unfavourable for
15 the Croats. The Lasva Valley was under total blockade;
16 it didn't have communication with any other area.
17 Q. This 10-kilometre area that was captured by
18 the BH army, what happened to the Croats in that part
19 of the territory?
20 A. There were, in fact, more Croats than Muslims
21 living there, percentage-wise. However, in a very
22 fierce conflict that lasted for two or three days in
23 Busovaca municipality and which spread to some other
24 areas as well, all the Croats from that region were
25 expelled. I don't know whether it is of any interest
1 for me to mention a figure referred to by a
2 representative of the UNHCR and the High Commissioner
3 for Refugees, that 277 Croatian homes were destroyed
4 and 35 Bosnian homes. This is a figure of the
5 International Community presented at a press conference
6 in Busovaca.
7 Q. How far is that area from Vitez?
8 A. The distance between the municipal centres is
9 12 or 13 kilometres, that is between Vitez and
10 Busovaca. If we add to that another two and a half
11 kilometres to Kacuni, then all in all the distance is
12 about 15 kilometres between the centre of Vitez and
14 Q. Do you know which villages were ethnically
16 A. I couldn't list them. I don't know exactly.
17 Q. Does the name Dusina mean anything to you?
18 A. Dusina is not on that main road. That is why
19 I didn't mention it. But I do know everything about
20 Dusina. Dusina is in the territory of Busovaca
21 municipality at the point between three municipalities,
22 and I assume that you want to ask me what happened in
24 Q. Yes, briefly.
25 A. On the 25th of January, the first large-scale
1 crime occurred for the first time in the war between
2 the Croats and Muslims. In a single day, on the 25th
3 of January, the Muslim forces killed and massacred 14
4 captured soldiers and several civilians. According to
5 some reliable estimates -- of course, not my own
6 estimate which cannot be reliable or relevant -- this
7 crime later on determined the course of the war which
8 took the bloodiest possible turn in the Lasva River
10 May I just add, unfortunately I had the
11 occasion to see a video recording of the bodies of the
12 people killed and massacred in Dusina because teams
13 from Zenica managed to make this recording in the
14 morgue of the Zenica hospital, and this video was shown
15 at a press conference in Busovaca.
16 Q. As you said that this was the first big crime
17 in the Muslim-Croat conflict in this area and wider,
18 did this crime cause the Croatian population to be
20 A. Of course, it caused great fear among the
21 population because people could read about it, hear
22 about it on the radio, and even see it on television
23 because the cruelty of it at that time was
24 incomprehensible for us. Later on, we saw such
25 atrocities, but at first, it was a great shock for
2 Q. Very well. We're moving on to 15 April,
3 '93. Where were you at that time?
4 A. 15 April, 1993, is the day before the fierce
5 conflict and war between the Croats and Muslims in the
6 Lasva River Valley. I have to say that the day
7 before -- of course, I was in the Vitez Brigade
8 headquarters that night and on that morning, and the
9 command post, the headquarters, was about 100 metres
10 away from the command post of the operational zone of
11 Central Bosnia. We were in the premises which was the
12 Workers' University before, and the local media outlets
13 were also located there, radio and television, that
15 On that day, I received a task to go to a
16 hastily organised press conference in Busovaca.
17 Busovaca organised regular weekly press conferences,
18 and they were usually held on Wednesday. However, this
19 press conference was called for Thursday at 12.00.
20 However, early in the morning we learned what it could
21 have been about and what the reason could have been for
22 calling this press conference. That morning, early in
23 the morning, on the road which leads out of the town of
24 Zenica, near the headquarters of the Jure Francetic
25 Brigade, the escort of -- the commander of this
1 Brigade, Zivko Totic, was killed in a very cruel way.
2 Four bodyguards were killed by dozens of bullets, and
3 in order to conceal this crime and its perpetrators,
4 another passer-by was also killed, who was an ethnic
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: We have a videotape of
7 several minutes and we have a transcript in English and
8 in Croatian, and this is the videotape of this press
9 conference in Busovaca.
10 THE REGISTRAR: The videotape is marked
11 D34/2, the Croatian translation D34A/2, and the English
13 (Videotape played)
14 THE INTERPRETER (Voiceover): "Dear
15 colleagues, ladies and gentlemen.
16 "This is an emergency press conference
17 called in connection with this morning's events which
18 have happened in Zenica.
19 "In the morning, around 8.00, in Podrezje,
20 on the road near the brigade command post, the vehicle
21 of the Commander of the Jure Francetic Brigade in
22 Zenica was attacked. On that occasion, four persons
23 were killed. The Commander escort: Ivica Vidovic,
24 Anto Zrnic, Marko and Tihomir Ljubic and another person
25 whose name is still not known.
1 "According to the police report, it is
2 probably an eyewitness to the event.
3 "The brigade commander Zivko Totic was
4 kidnapped and taken in an unknown direction.
5 "Five persons were killed.
6 "The colleagues from the HVO press from
7 Zenica recorded it, so we can watch the film."
8 "It is assumed that he was a witness to the
10 "The situation from February until the last
11 incident. I list in order:
12 "On 27th February, 1993, at a checkpoint
13 between Vjetrenica-Maslinek, a part of goods from the
14 Caritas convoy.
15 "On 28th February, the car owned by Marinko
16 Hrgic was taken from four persons by the BH army
17 members in Zenica.
18 "On 3rd March, fuel was taken from the HVO
19 Kakanj on the road Visoko-Kakanj at the checkpoint of
20 the BH army at the place of Papratnica.
21 "On 4th March, 1993, the MOS members stopped
22 a bus in Zepce. They were IDing and searching without
24 "On 28th February, the MOS members were
25 controlling traffic in Travnik. They took a pistol
1 from a person and shot at two privately owned
3 "On 7th March, the building in Vitez where AT
4 platoon of the military police was placed was shot from
5 the village of Ahmici inhabited by Muslims.
6 "On 9th March, in Zenica, at a place called
7 Visnjica, five BH army members came to the house of
8 Mr. Kristo, ransacked and took everything, set the
9 house on fire.
10 "On 15th March, the BH army members through a
11 hand grenade wounding one person, a woman and a child,
12 and caused great material damage at the 'Maks' shop in
14 "On 16th March, 'the Mujahedeen' killed Zoran
15 Matosevic and Ivo Juric, the HVO Travnik members, near
16 the place of Dolac in Travnik municipality.
17 "On 16th March, Drago Mitrovic was stopped
18 and 7.000 Deutschmarks were taken from him at the
19 checkpoint Ravan Rosul.
20 "On 17th March, houses were broken into,
21 houses belonging to Milorad Polet and Vlatko Tvrtkovic,
22 and all belongings were looted.
23 "On 17th March in Zenica, Mr. Z. Vukovic,
24 member of the BH army, was arrested trying to break
25 into an HVO vehicle.
1 "On 17th March in Kakanj, a girl named
2 Gordana Rados was seriously wounded. She was shot by
3 the BH army from their positions.
4 "On 17th March, the former HOS Kakanj
5 commander, Ivo Vuletic, was killed in Kakanj. He was
6 killed by Sakib Cilo, a member of the Kakanj MUP.
7 "On 17th March, the BH army members threw a
8 hand grenade at the premises of the military police in
10 "On 16th March, the BH army threw a hand
11 grenade at the entrance of the BH army command in Donja
13 "On 15th March, the BH army members shot at
14 the HVO Command in Donja Vecerska using infantry
16 "On 22nd March, the MUP members of the BH
17 army took plates off the vehicles bearing the marks of
18 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna at a checkpoint
19 in Zenica.
20 "On 23rd March, the BH army members seized a
21 FAP 18, a truck from Vitez carrying humanitarian aid
22 from Brestovsko in the place of Kacunac in Busovaca
24 "On 23rd March, the BH army members shot from
25 a truck at the military police building.
1 "On 23rd March, the BH army members shot from
2 the hospital using small arms at the military police
3 building in Travnik. On the same day, the BH army
4 members took down the Croatian flag and burnt it at the
5 checkpoint Vilosten in Kakanj.
6 "On 24th March, the Green Berets arrested two
7 military policemen and held them in custody.
8 "On 23rd March, the BH Army members threw a
9 hand grenade at the HVO units location.
10 "On 24th March, the BH army members shot at
11 Croatian houses in Donja Veceriska.
12 "On 25th March, the BH army members threw a
13 hand grenade at the entrance of the St. Elias church.
14 "On 28th March, the BH army members killed
15 two military policemen.
16 "On 26th March, the BH army members shot from
17 small arms to the school at Cajdras, causing great
18 material damage.
19 "On 29th March, Slavko Kucar was killed by
20 the BH army members at the place of Cagljas in Zenica
22 "On 30th March, in Travnik, the BH army
23 members planted an explosive device which was detonated
24 and caused great material damage.
25 "On 3rd April, the BH army members planted an
1 explosive device in a park nearby a kiosk owned by a
2 Croat in Travnik.
3 "On 4th April, BH army members also planted
4 explosive devices at the hotel 'Larint' in Travnik,
5 causing great damage.
6 "On 5th April, 'the Mujahedeen carried out a
7 physical attack against two civilians.
8 "On 6th April, BH army members committed the
9 murder of Darijo Majnaric, a member of the HVO, at his
10 own apartment in Travnik.
11 "On 7th April, members set an explosive
12 device under the kiosk near the hotel 'Orient' in
14 "On 8th April, also in Travnik, BH army
15 members took down and burnt ten flags bearing Croatian
16 insignia, and just before that, five busloads and five
17 truckloads of BiH army members, Mujahedeen, and Green
18 League members arrived in Travnik.
19 "On 8th April, BH army members forcibly took
20 two pistols from two civilian policemen in Novi
22 "On 8th April, a truck was seized forcibly in
23 Novi Travnik.
24 "On 9th April, BH army members stopped
25 V. Lesic whose vehicle was seized in Novi Travnik.
1 "On 10th April, near the BH army command post
2 in Vitez, BH army members stopped Ivo Sucic and Slavko
3 Maric, members of the Vitez Brigade command staff who
4 were in civilian clothes and were coming back from a
5 church. They were mistreated, beaten up, and
6 afterwards released.
7 "On 10th April, two bodies of the HVO Kakanj
8 members were found on the road Bugojno - Novi Travnik
9 near the place of Zlatnice. They were killed by BH
10 army members.
11 "On 11th April, a bomb was planted in the
12 military police building in Travnik. On the same day,
13 a building belonging to the Vitez unit was attacked by
14 small arms weapons.
15 "On 12th April, in Travnik, a bazooka grenade
16 was fired at the building which was occupied by the
17 military police.
18 "On 5th April, BH army members placed a car
19 across the way with the purpose of seizing vehicles of
20 the HVO military police in Travnik in the place of
21 Simena in Travnik municipality.
22 "On 8th April, members of MOS, 'the
23 Mujahedeen were provoking citizens by poking guns at
24 them from an open van.
25 "On 9th April, the military police received a
1 phone threat in Novi Travnik.
2 "On 8th April, BH army members tried to seize
3 a Golf car from Zeljko Lozancic in Travnik.
4 "On 10th April, BH army members forcibly
5 seized a Golf from Franjo Gudenica from Tuzla.
6 "On 12th April, the commander of the Special
7 Purpose Unit - 'Vitezovi' was disarmed and another five
8 military policemen were later disarmed in Travnik at
10 "On 12th April, an attack was carried out at
11 the military police building in Travnik. The same day,
12 BH army members broke into two warehouses of Vitezit in
13 Vitez and some explosives were taken away. The same
14 day, two hand grenades were thrown by the BH army
15 members in the house of Franjo Kasic in Novi Travnik."
16 The reason was that he had flown a flag, a
17 Croatian flag, on his house.
18 "On 13 April BH army members tried to kill a
19 commander of the special purpose units Vitezovi and his
20 escorts near Kruscica in Vitez municipality.
21 "On 13 April, three officers and one driver,
22 a brigade driver from the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade in
23 Novi Travnik were taken away forcibly by the BH army
24 members in Novi Travnik. They have not been found
1 "On 13 April near Zukica Most in Travnik, BH
2 army members stopped 25 members of the HVO Travnik, who
3 were returning from the frontline at Turbe, and
4 disarmed them.
5 "On 1st April Fahrudin Ahmic, the police
6 unit member of the Kiseljak station, was killed by the
7 BH army members in Kiseljak. On 25th March in Zenica,
8 Father Stjepan Radic, the vicar of St. Elias church
9 on --"
10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: We can stop here.
11 Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Cilic, this was the introductory part of
13 this press conference. What happened subsequently?
14 A. In my opinion, the tone was regular, but the
15 atmosphere at the premises where the press conference
16 took place was very heavy. You cannot really get a
17 good impression of what these bodies looked like,
18 because the videotape is black and white and the
19 videotape was colour. You could see traces of blood
20 all over the car and in the surrounding area, and then
21 this recitation of all the incidents which had taken
22 place brought us back to all these events which we
24 Q. Do you remember of these incidents mentioned
1 A. Yes. I believe we even mentioned some of
2 them here. For instance, the Kruscica incident and the
3 killing of Commander Stojak, and five or six additional
4 incidents, I think, we covered earlier.
5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Very well. I think
6 this would be a good place to stop for the day.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Have you got a few more
8 questions for this witness?
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Not a few more. One
10 group. It's two hours.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Two hours.
12 JUDGE MAY: Two hours was suggested --
13 JUDGE CASSESE: You anticipated two hours for
14 the whole testimony.
15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: What I tried to say
16 yesterday, we have certain changes and certain
17 witnesses are not coming, so Mr. Cilic is now
18 testifying to some of the issues which would have been
19 covered by some other witnesses. I think that this is
20 actually a good thing that happened, because I think
21 he's going to cover an area which is wider, which would
22 have been covered much more widely by several
23 witnesses. We will have fewer documents and Mr. Cilic
24 is going to cover several issues. So we cannot really
25 observe the list very strictly, but at the same time we
1 are not going to have some other witnesses which were
2 originally envisaged.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Tomorrow we will
4 be sitting from 9.00 to 1.30, and then from 3.00 to
5 5.30, but there will be no sitting on Thursday, as you
6 know. Mr. Terrier.
7 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, just an
8 observation. We gave to the Defence counsel this
9 morning the list of witnesses on which we consider not
10 being sufficiently informed. Secondly, since the
11 Defence knows the names of some witnesses that they're
12 not going to call, would they let us know of those
13 names, please?
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I think the
15 Defence counsel, I hope, will comply with this
16 request. If you could let us know as soon as possible
17 the list of witnesses who are not coming, who will not
18 be called. All right.
19 We will adjourn now and tomorrow we will make
20 some plans for the future. The Court is very keen to
21 complete this case before Easter, but it very much
22 depends on the pace of our proceedings -- before the
23 4th of April. Thank you. We adjourn now.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
25 at 1.32 p.m. to be reconvened on
1 Wednesday, the 13th day of
2 January, 1999 at 9:00 a.m.