1 Wednesday, 27th January, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
5 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
6 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
7 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and Vladimir Santic.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.
9 MR. BLAXILL: Good morning, Your Honours. If
10 I may interpose for a moment. Mr. President, you are
11 aware of a matter I communicated to you yesterday. I
12 have confirmed that for our deceased teammate, the
13 memorial service is to be held at 10.30 tomorrow
14 morning, and we would very much appreciate it if the
15 Court could reschedule business tomorrow to facilitate
16 our attendance at that service.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, first of all, let me
18 convey to you the Court's condolences. We are very
19 saddened by what happened.
20 In principle, if the Defence counsel are
21 agreeable, we would reschedule the hearing so as to
22 hold it tomorrow afternoon, but we will have to check
23 whether there are any problems. Can we say that we
24 will let you know later on?
25 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: So we will hold no hearing
2 tomorrow morning in any case, but let us try and see
3 whether we could, say, for instance, sit from 1.30 to
4 6.00 tomorrow afternoon, if there's no objection from
5 Defence counsel. All right. We will come back to this
6 matter later on.
7 MR. BLAXILL: Much appreciated, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic?
9 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I
10 just wanted to state to you that the Defence agrees
11 with what the Prosecutor says, and we have no
12 objections whatsoever. Let us reorganise our schedule
14 I also wish to avail myself of this
15 opportunity to express the condolences of the Defence
16 to our colleagues, the Prosecutors, on this sad
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much. All
19 right. Today, I suggest that we take a break at a
20 quarter past ten. The 30-minute break will be taken at
21 a quarter past ten to reconvene at a quarter to
23 Let us move on, and I think Counsel
24 Slokovic-Glumac was re-examining the witness.
25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Good morning, Your
2 WITNESS: DRAGAN GREBENAR
3 Re-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Grebenar. You just said
5 during your cross-examination that you heard later on
6 that on the 16th Redzo was killed, I don't know if that
7 is that person's name or nickname, and that this was a
8 person from Prnjavor. Do you know where he was killed
9 or do you know anything else regarding the
10 circumstances of his death?
11 A. Yes, it is true I said that Redzo was
12 killed. That is his name and, believe me, I do not
13 know his last name. I heard about this about a year
14 ago, that on the 16th, a Muslim was killed in
15 Poculica. He was killed somewhere around the school,
16 as far as I heard, but under which circumstances and
17 how, that, I do not know. This person Redzo lived in
18 Prnjavor, but he was killed in this area around the
20 Q. But you personally did not see a thing; is
21 that right?
22 A. No, no, no. I even think that he was killed
23 after I was wounded. It was in the early evening
25 Q. Also, you mentioned the village of Gornja
1 Dubravica. That is a village which is just below
2 Poculica. You showed it on the map.
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. How many Croat houses were there? Could you
5 just tell us that?
6 A. Well, Gornja Dubravica spreads out from the
7 road that leads to Sivrino Selo, so perhaps -- I don't
8 know. I don't know the exact number, but there might
9 have been about 50 to 60 Croat houses.
10 Q. Do you know whether these people were
11 informed about the events that would ensue on the 16th
12 in any way?
13 A. I think they were not because when we sent
14 the civilians towards Krizancevo Selo, the civilians
15 from Dubravica, Gornja Dubravica, were also by the
16 creek, and together with the civilians from Poculica,
17 they escaped towards Krizancevo Selo.
18 Q. So the Croats from Gornja Dubravica fled on
19 the 16th?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In relation to Kuber, which was relatively
22 close to your village, however, near your village is
23 only one part of Kuber, that is to say, the Vitez side;
25 A. Yes. When one says "Kuber," one means a
1 range of elevations, hills, as we call them, so we had
2 this observation point closer to our village, closer to
3 Poculica, whereas on the other side, the Busovaca side,
4 there was another observation point.
5 Q. But you didn't go there, did you?
6 A. No, no, only during the conflict. In 1993, I
7 was there once, and I saw where it was.
8 Q. Do you know anything about the events in
9 Kuber on the 15th of April, 1993?
10 A. Well, from the 15th of April, 1993 -- as a
11 matter of fact, later on, I found out a few things.
12 People were retelling what had happened, and during
13 that night, there were some of my people there who were
14 out there on guard duty, and we had said that that
15 night did not differ from any other night, we thought
16 so. During the night, one could hear bits of shooting
17 from Vitez, Tolovici, Vrhovine, but we always thought
18 that, in most cases, fortunately, somebody was just in
19 a very good mood. After a few glasses of beer, perhaps
20 they would pick up a rifle and shoot a burst of gunfire
21 or two.
22 But my group that was out there on the 15th,
23 they realised that from Kuber, from Vrhovine, they
24 could hear some shooting, but only later we found out
25 that -- rather, when I was at the hospital later, I
1 found out that on the Busovaca side where the
2 observation point was for the young men from Busovaca,
3 there was an attack there, and if I remember, they
4 mentioned two or three men being killed during that
5 night between the 15th and 16th of April. That is on
6 the Busovaca side. But here on our side, I heard that
7 there was sporadic shooting, but I really don't know
8 whether there were people who were killed or wounded.
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I have finished with
10 this part, but with the permission of the Trial
11 Chamber, I would like to put another question which is
12 not a real question, I mean, one that belongs to
13 cross-examination. It is not really a subject that
14 pertains to cross-examination; however, Zoran Kupreskic
15 said that I interrupted the witness at one point when
16 he started talking about Majda Sivro. So with your
17 permission, I would just like to put one question in
18 addition to what the witness already said, so "Who was
19 Majda Sivro?" Thank you.
20 Q. Who was Majda Sivro and how did Zoran
21 Kupreskic help her?
22 A. Majda Sivro is a Muslim woman. I know her as
23 a co-worker. She was also employed at the SPS factory,
24 and I personally knew her through the obligations we
25 had at work, so that is where we communicated. But
1 Zoran Kupreskic had known Majda from earlier on because
2 I think that Majda's husband, I think his name is
3 Bahtija, was for a certain period of time the president
4 of our or, rather, their cultural society in Vitez.
5 That's where Mirjan and Zoran Kupreskic were active.
6 So they were friends with Majda in that respect too.
7 They performed quite a bit outside the borders of
8 Bosnia, and Majda, as the wife of the president, would
9 travel with them on these tours, and that is how they
10 become friends.
11 As regards assistance, yes, I was interrupted
12 yesterday, but I did mention that as soon as the
13 conflict broke out, Zoran asked me when he saw me, he
14 said that he would be embarrassed to show up on his own
15 but he heard that Majda was in her apartment with her
16 children still, and he asked me whether I would be
17 willing to come along with him and to see how she was
18 and whether anything could be done for her, whether she
19 could be helped in any way, because the fact remains
20 that fear prevailed at that time in Vitez and --
21 Q. That was at the beginning of the war, is that
22 correct, after the conflict broke out?
23 A. Yes, yes, after the conflict broke out, five
24 or six days, perhaps, after the conflict broke out. I
25 cannot tell you exactly, but it was at the beginning of
1 the conflict. We went to Majda's apartment. We
2 knocked at the door. Zoran introduced himself because
3 she had asked who it was, and he introduced himself,
4 and he said, "This is Zoran, Majda. Are you in?" And
5 she said, "Yes," and she opened the door and she hugged
6 Zoran and burst into tears, and she said, "What's going
7 on?" And he said, "I have no idea. I imagine
8 everything will turn out fine."
9 I think that he had heard from another lady,
10 a Croat who had worked together with us at the company,
11 I can't remember her exact name, and she asked us
12 whether we'd like to come in and sit down. It was a
13 bit embarrassing, but we did walk in, and we sat down
14 at the dining table. As far as I remember, the
15 children were there too. I'm not sure of the little
16 girl, but, yes, her little children were there with
17 her. And we talked about 10 or 15 minutes. Zoran and
18 her talked a great deal more because they were very
19 friendly, and she asked me about my wounds and whether
20 all my people were still alive and whether I had
21 anything left in Poculica, but Zoran, among other
22 things, asked her whether he could help her in any way,
23 whether she had enough food and other things, and she
24 said that she did for the time being, that she had
25 enough food supplies, but that she was afraid that
1 there were refugees coming in, and the name on the door
2 is a Muslim name, her husband's surname and her
3 surname. She was afraid that perhaps somebody might
4 break-in in the evening or something like that.
5 At that moment, Zoran took me by surprise.
6 He suggested something which I did not approve of then,
7 but it turned out to be the right thing. Actually, he
8 offered Majda to write something down on a piece of
9 paper. What was the rule at that time? When refugees
10 would come in and get into other people's apartments,
11 abandoned apartments, they would just take a little
12 piece of paper and put their name on the door so people
13 would know that this was a Croat and that they wouldn't
14 bang at the door and whatever. Zoran offered that he
15 writes his name on the door, "Zoran Kupreskic," showing
16 that he lived there, and that would protect her, at
17 least to a certain extent.
18 She was truly surprised too by his gesture,
19 and she said, "Well, you are putting yourself in danger
20 too," and he said, "Well, don't worry. I will drop in
21 or Greba --" "Greba" is my nickname, "either he will
22 drop in or I will drop in. Everything will be just
24 Later on I saw Majda once again. I did not
25 go to see her at the apartment, but I know that Zoran
1 went and took her food supplies as well as long as
2 Majda was there.
3 Q. Thank you very much. I have concluded with
4 the redirect.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Now, of course,
6 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, you are aware that in allowing
7 you to raise a matter in re-examination, which had not
8 been discussed or raised before, we have slightly
9 departed from our basic Rules of Procedure. I thought,
10 however, that this was necessary in the interest of
11 justice. However, we have to stick with some
12 principles, not only the question of a fair trial at
13 the interest of justice, namely, the interest to search
14 for the truth, but also we have to comply with the
15 principle of equality of arms. So therefore it is, I
16 think, appropriate for me to ask the Prosecutor whether
17 they want to ask any question on this particular matter
18 just raised by Defence counsel.
19 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Actually, I would have one question to put to the
21 witness regarding this protection that Mr. Zoran
22 Kupreskic granted to his Muslim friend.
23 Re-cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
24 Q. Could Mr. Grebenar tell us why this person of
25 Muslim faith was threatened, why she was in danger, and
1 then, secondly, could he tell us why it was dangerous
2 for Zoran Kupreskic to grant this woman his
3 protection? In what measure is that a heroic act or a
4 brave act from his part? These are the two questions I
5 would like to put to Mr. Grebenar.
6 A. If I understood you correctly, the first
7 question was why she felt imperilled, Mrs. Majda
8 Sivro. And I think that is quite clear. If I felt
9 threatened as a man and terrified in my own home in
10 Poculica on that first day, when I was surrounded by
11 Muslims, and when she saw that Croat refugees were
12 coming to Vitez, peoples whose houses were burnt down
13 and who had some of their next of kin killed, of course
14 the woman was afraid. She was afraid that some of
15 these Croat refugees who were flooding into Vitez from
16 all sides could do something out of revolt or revenge.
17 They were all afraid.
18 So may I also answer your other question. In
19 what sense -- I don't know how I should put this. How
20 Mr. Zoran Kupreskic felt. Perhaps the situation was
21 not all that dangerous, but, as you said, it certainly
22 was a brave act on the part of Mr. Kupreskic at that
23 time. Because during the culmination of the conflict,
24 when Croats are being killed on one side and
25 persecuted, to help Muslims on the other side, and to
1 have Muslims helping Croats in Zenica or elsewhere,
2 helping their friends. On the one side there were the
3 Croats and the other side there were the Muslims. It
4 was not considered to be a natural thing, and it could
5 have caused certain incidents.
6 That is why I said that I myself did not
7 approve of Zoran's offer to put up his own name on that
9 Q. Your Honour, may I put one other question to
10 the witness. Thank you.
11 Mr. Grebenar, are you aware of the fact that
12 Mr. Zoran Kupreskic has granted the same kind of
13 protection to Muslims from the village of Ahmici? Do
14 you know of such cases?
15 A. You mean on the day of the conflict or before
17 Q. No, I am thinking about Zoran Kupreskic's
18 neighbours in Ahmici, whatever the time I am referring
20 A. I think that Zoran did help them. I cannot
21 speak of that very day, of the outbreak of the
22 conflict. I wasn't there. So I cannot speak of that
23 day. But before that we had quite a few colleagues at
24 work from Ahmici. I think that 70 per cent of the
25 people of Ahmici, either Croats or Muslims, were
1 employed at the SPS factory in Vitez, that is to say,
2 these were our co-workers, we knew them from sight, at
3 least, and also they were his neighbours and his
4 friends more than mine. But I know that in various
5 ways if he could and to the extent he could, he would
6 help people.
7 Zoran Kupreskic was actually head of one
8 section of maintenance at the factory, and he had young
9 men from Ahmici employed there, Muslims, for example.
10 I remember Nermin Ahmic, I think that was his name.
11 I know that once even the head locksmith objected to
12 Zoran and said that he did too many favours to Nermin
13 Ahmic. I mean favours. He allowed him to stay away
14 from work and he took it as part of his annual leave.
15 However, Zoran was familiar with his situation. He had
16 a mother who was ill or something like that and he
17 often had to go to the hospital. So he tried to help
18 this person.
19 He actually explained to Mr. Ahmic's
20 immediate superior that the man was in a difficult
21 situation, that he needed to be helped. He did not
22 only help him on that day, he helped them earlier on.
23 He helped whoever he could help and whoever he had an
24 opportunity to help.
25 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, I
2 think you are entitled to briefly re-examine, very
3 briefly re-examine, the witness on this very point.
4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,
5 Mr. President. I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Well, we have no
7 questions for the witness.
8 Mr. Grebenar, thank you so much for coming
9 here to testify in Court. You may now be released.
10 Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you too, sir.
12 (The witness withdrew)
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we move onto our next
14 witness, let me first of all ask Counsel
15 Slokovic-Glumac whether it is -- there's a number 2 on
16 our list, and he is being called by, I think, Counsel
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel,
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: The next witness is
21 Zeljka Rajic. I don't know what number she is listed
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Number three. She's -- I
24 don't know -- she is a she? She's being called by you
25 and Counsel Radovic. Any protective measures?
1 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: If you don't mind, before we
3 now call the next witness, let me express to you the
4 worries and concerns of the Court about the list of
5 witnesses we received from the Defence counsel.
6 Actually, now we have 111 witnesses to be called by
7 Defence counsel, plus, of course, at least three
8 accused and a few Court witnesses. That amounts to
9 about 120 witnesses.
10 Judging from the pace of our proceedings,
11 this would take about 90 working days, 90 to 95 working
12 days. That means that since we can't sit on Kupreskic
13 every week for the next few months, that we would end
14 probably in July or September only with the Defence
15 case. And then we need, of course, to write our
16 judgment. So I fear that the end -- we are going to
17 put off the end of this trial to the Greek kalends, ad
18 calendas graecas, and, as you know, the Greeks didn't
19 have any kalends. So that means sine die.
20 I wonder whether we could take some steps so
21 as to shorten the list of witnesses. We would like
22 first of all to suggest that as for the 16 character
23 witnesses Defence counsel propose to call, we should
24 apply Rule 94 ter. So we would like to suggest that
25 each Defence counsel intending to call character
1 witnesses should only call one, and for the other ones
2 should provide affidavits, of course subject to any
3 possible objection by the Prosecution.
4 If there are any objection by the
5 Prosecution, of course, the character witnesses will be
6 called here to appear in Court.
7 Now, similarly, as for the four expert
8 witnesses now listed in this document, we would like to
9 apply, again, Rule 94 bis. I assume you have already
10 envisaged this possibility by providing the witness
11 statements of the expert witnesses. I hope so. That
12 means that the -- it is now for the Prosecution to see
13 whether they have any objection.
14 In this way we would reduce by 20, probably,
15 the list of witnesses.
16 In addition we would like to point out that
17 we will not admit any testimony which is repetitive, in
18 particular on Count 1. So please make sure that the
19 future witnesses do not repeat matters or insist on
20 matters which we have already heard.
21 I wonder whether there are any suggestions
22 from either Defence or the Prosecution to the effect
23 that we should try to shorten our proceedings as much
24 as possible, however, because, without saying, that we
25 will never curtail the rights of the Defence. It goes
1 without saying.
2 No suggestion? Let us think it over.
3 Actually, one final question to Counsel Krajina. I
4 assume that the list here submitted includes the three
5 witnesses to be summoned by the Court? Originally
6 there were four. Now you are going to call, through
7 us, only three?
8 MR. KRAJINA: Yes, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Also make an effort, for
10 instance, remember, we intend to call the
11 anthropologist, an expert witness, and I wonder whether
12 we could simply admit into evidence her book which you
13 have read. I wonder whether you could consider this
14 matter. If you have no objections. You have
15 objections? Yes. All right. So we will call her.
16 JUDGE MAY: What are the objections? We
17 really must speed these proceedings up.
18 MR. RADOVIC: Regarding the expert witness,
19 the anthropologist, I think she has to appear before
20 the Trial Chamber. She needs to respond to several
21 questions which bring into question her whole theory.
22 The theory is, in fact, states that neighbours who were
23 in good relations at one point in time could turn
24 around their lives. In applying this thesis on Ahmici,
25 she would need to respond. How does she know that the
1 crimes in Ahmici were committed by neighbours? If she
2 does not know this, then her thesis that neighbours in
3 Ahmici could have committed this becomes -- it doesn't
4 stand. It only remains on the surface of what she's
6 So if her book is being used, we insist that
7 she appear before this Trial Chamber.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
9 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Your Honour, as regards
10 this anthropologist we just mentioned, I don't think it
11 is proper to ask her to give her opinion on what
12 happened in Ahmici. She doesn't know a thing about
13 what happened in Ahmici, and she cannot give an opinion
14 on these particular events.
15 Now, as for the village itself, she spent
16 some time in the village and she has observed a number
17 of things, so she can give us some explanations. Then
18 it will be your task, Your Honours, to see if what
19 happened in the other villages of the Kiseljak area
20 can, in a way, in certain measure, explain what
21 happened in Ahmici. But that is a decision for you to
22 make. You are also entitled to put questions to that
23 witness about what happened in Ahmici.
24 So I think it is not really possible to just
25 ask that the book she wrote, and which was published by
1 the Princeton University, be admitted in the case
2 file. This, and also the video which she made for the
3 BBC channel.
4 Now, as to the issue you raised earlier and
5 as regards character witnesses. What I would like to
6 stress is that, as far as the Prosecution is concerned,
7 there is no doubt as to the character of the
8 witnesses. We are not aiming to prove before this
9 Court that the accused before the conflict were
10 horrible human beings who had terrifying relations with
11 their Muslim neighbours. I think the contrary is true,
12 and we are not contesting that particular point.
13 So if the Defence are trying to prove that
14 the accused were good neighbours and good human beings,
15 I think indeed Rule 94 ter could be relied upon. We
16 will not contest that point of the Defence strategy.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: I do share the Prosecutor's
18 opinion. I read the book written by the anthropologist
19 and, as far as I am concerned, there is not one word
20 concerning Ahmici in that book. There is not one word
21 about the crimes committed in that village. So what we
22 need to do is ask the witness to tell us what was the
23 nature of the relationship that existed between the
24 different ethnic groups. Couldn't you give us a
25 general picture of what the situation was? I don't
1 know. What is your position? I am turning towards all
2 the Defence counsels.
3 Now, as far as character witnesses, we've
4 just heard from the Prosecution that they have no
5 objection to the fact that affidavits could be used, in
6 which case I am inviting the Defence counsels to give
7 us that kind of statement and to try to reduce the
8 number of character witnesses to one per accused. One
9 person could come and testify about the character of
10 the witnesses.
11 Mr. Radovic, I see you would like to take the
12 floor. No?
13 Yes, Counsel Par.
14 MR. PAR: If you permit me, Mr. President, I
15 think the question is not clarified about the expert
16 testimony. As far as I understood, the Court proposes
17 that we get the statements by the expert witness and
18 then the Prosecution would express its opinion. So I
19 would like my learned colleague, Mr. Terrier, to tell
20 us what his position is about that.
21 We have sent the findings to the Prosecution,
22 so we would like to hear the position of the
23 Prosecution regarding the need to bring these expert
24 witnesses before the Trial Chamber.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. As I say, we
1 intend to apply Rule 94 bis. I wonder whether the
2 Prosecutor is ready now to give an answer to say
3 whether they object, they oppose the statements of the
4 expert witness which I've already been provided. If,
5 of course, the Prosecutor needs some time, we can come
6 back to this matter maybe on Friday.
7 Do you need some time?
8 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Your Honour, please. Your
9 Honour, can I just add one thing. As far as our future
10 work is concerned, we would like to be advised well in
11 advance of the change that may interfere in the order
12 of witnesses who will come before you, because of
13 course this will effect our strategy.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, of course, it's
15 obvious. I think this is what the Prosecution did when
16 calling its own witnesses. The Prosecution warned the
17 Defence well in advance of the changes that took
18 place. So the Defence counsel should behave in the
19 same way and should abide by this principle, very
20 reasonable principle, and a principle which serves the
21 interest of justice.
22 Mr. Terrier, I think by Friday morning you
23 will be able to give us the Prosecution's opinion about
24 what should be done with expert witnesses. So that's
1 I think we can now have the next witness
2 brought in. I think the name of the witness is
3 Mrs. Zeljka Rajic. She can be brought in.
4 (The witness entered court)
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Madam. I would
6 like to ask you to read the solemn declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
10 JUDGE CASSESE: You may be seated. Counsel
12 WITNESS: ZELJKA RAJIC
13 Examined by Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac:
14 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Rajic. Could you please
15 tell us where you were born and when and what your
16 occupation is.
17 A. My name is Zeljka Rajic. I was born in
18 Zenica. I lived in Zenica until '75, when I got
19 married, and went to Lasva until '93. That's where I
20 was. Right now I am living in Busovaca.
21 Q. Could you tell us your date of birth?
22 A. Yes. I was born in 1958.
23 Q. You said that until you got married you lived
24 in Zenica?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. After you got married, where did you go?
2 A. I went to Lasva.
3 Q. You married Zvonko Rajic; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where is the village of Lasva, please?
6 A. The village of Lasva is 18 kilometres away
7 from Zenica.
8 Q. It will be easier if you could see the map.
9 Would the usher please show the Court Chamber and the
10 witness this map.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked
13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
14 Q. Would you please indicate where the village
15 of Lasva is, please.
16 A. Yes. It's right here (indicating).
17 Q. Could we see this on the ELMO, please. Could
18 you indicate it now, please, on the ELMO. On this
19 side, Ms. Rajic. Okay.
20 A. Zenica is here. So it could be right here.
21 Q. So how far is it from Zenica?
22 A. Eighteen kilometres.
23 Q. You mean Lasva and Busovaca. What's the
24 distance between them?
25 A. Yes, 17 kilometres.
1 Q. What about Lasva-Vitez?
2 A. Lasva-Vitez (French translation).
3 JUDGE CASSESE: -- between French and English
4 translations (French translation). No, there is no
5 difference. Sometimes we hear the French and sometimes
6 we hear the English coming in. (French translation)
7 We have the English translation on channel 4
8 and the French on channel 5, as usual.
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: French, not the
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
13 Q. So you said that Lasva is between Zenica,
14 Vitez and Busovaca. You will also in the course of
15 your testimony mention another place?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That place is called Dusina?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So could you tell where Dusina is located on
20 this map. Is the distance between Lasva and Dusina
21 three kilometres?
22 A. Well, how can I explain this.
23 Q. Is Dusina in the direction of Zenica or
25 A. It's in the direction of Busovaca. It's
1 three kilometres away, but on the map it's kind of
2 difficult to find one's way around.
3 Q. Do you see Busovaca?
4 A. Yes, I see Busovaca, but I don't know what
5 the black markings mean, but three kilometres would
6 mean --
7 JUDGE MAY: Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac, can you
8 help the witness as to where this is pointed out.
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: This is Dusina. This
10 is how I pointed it out.
11 Q. So between Zenica and Busovaca, Lasva is
12 halfway on the road?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. How big was Lasva before the conflict broke
15 out, so in '92?
16 A. Well, how many -- what the Croat population
17 was and what the Muslim population was, is that what
18 you mean?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Well, there were about 500 Muslim houses,
21 that's how many houses they had, and we had 42 of our
22 houses, Croat houses, including Dusina and Lasva.
23 Q. How many Croat houses were there?
24 A. Forty-six.
25 Q. How many Croats lived there?
1 A. About 70.
2 Q. I'm talking about Lasva now.
3 A. Yes, Lasva.
4 Q. Who did you live with at that time?
5 A. With my husband and three children.
6 Q. How old were your children?
7 A. My oldest daughter was 16, the younger
8 daughter was 15, and my son was 9 years old.
9 Q. Your husband, Zvonko Rajic, how old was he?
10 A. He was 38 years old.
11 Q. What was your husband's occupation?
12 A. He was a transporter. He had a transport
13 company. He had his own bus. That's what we call it.
14 Q. So he had his own bus, a truck, so he was a
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Was he in the HVO?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was he a commander of the HVO in Lasva?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many soldiers were under his command?
22 A. About 30.
23 Q. These were men from Lasva and Dusina; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When did the first problems between Muslims
2 and Croats in the area of Lasva start?
3 A. Well, these were not problems. First of all,
4 we lost our trust in them because they attacked a
5 village, Bozici, which was three kilometres away from
6 Lasva. It was on a slope, on an elevation, because the
7 Serbs --
8 Q. So whose village was this?
9 A. This was a Serb village.
10 Q. And its name?
11 A. Its name was Bozici. There were about 10 of
12 their houses there. In '92, in October, they
13 surrendered their weapons voluntarily because they
14 wanted to move out, but after that, in November of '92,
15 the BH army surrounded the village of Bozici. My
16 husband was fixing his truck, so I was there with him.
17 I was helping him. The phone rang. A young man, one
18 of our young men was up there with a friend of his,
19 visiting a friend of his, and he said, "Bozici has been
21 My husband left what he was doing
22 immediately. He looked to see if he could see their
23 village from our house. A group of about 50 soldiers
24 of the BH army had surrounded a part of the forest,
25 there's a forest there, and that's how they were going
1 into their village.
2 My husband took a car, he was all dirty, and
3 he went to that village because he knew they didn't
4 have any weapons, that there was no need for them to go
5 up there. So by the time he arrived, the BH army had
6 separated the men, the husbands, into a barn and were
7 practically beating one by one with iron rods, also
8 wooden rods, so these were like batons. There was also
9 a pregnant woman. They killed her and her husband.
10 My Zvonko, when he got there, since one of
11 the locals from Lasva, a Muslim, was there, he asked
12 him, "Why are you doing this? I would like to see your
13 orders. Where do you get the right to beat people?" I
14 will name this person. This was Batan Pasalic. He
15 told my husband Zvonko, "Don't interfere or the same
16 will happen to you."
17 My husband, of course, had no idea about
18 this. He said, "Let these people go." They didn't let
19 them go. Then they took the women, made them drink
20 oil, and there was quarrelling, but by the time he got
21 there, there was no more shooting, so he rescued those
22 people. One of the men died from the beating, and then
23 after two or three days, these people had left that
25 Q. How many Serbs did you say were in the
1 village of Bozici?
2 A. About 10 homes, so it's about 20 people. All
3 the youth had left, they went to other towns, so only
4 the older people remained in the village.
5 Q. Your husband went to help the Serbs; is that
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. So the main reason he went there was to warn
9 the BH army soldiers?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. To warn them that the people in the village
12 were not armed?
13 A. Yes, of course. All of those people knew,
14 particularly that local Batan villager, he knew that
15 they didn't have any weapons, because Jovica, the Serb,
16 had taken all the weapons to the local community, at
17 the school, and he said Croats and Muslims can be
18 distributed with weapons. So these people had no arms,
19 no weapons at all. This was in October. Then in
20 November, they were attacked and beaten. My husband
21 protected those people practically because they didn't
22 have any ammunition.
23 Q. So in November, the village was vacated?
24 A. Yes. The three people were buried at that
25 time, I was present, and then on that day or two or
1 three days later, everybody moved out from that
3 Q. What kind of a person was your husband?
4 A. My husband was a good man. He was a peaceful
5 man. He helped everybody whenever they had any kind of
6 trouble, any kind of trouble. I think a man like that
7 will not be born again.
8 Q. After that, nothing happened in Lasva until
9 the 25th of January of '93?
10 A. Yes, but before that, things went on as
11 usual. Our neighbours, women neighbours, Muslims,
12 would come, and they would ask my husband, they're
13 hungry, they have nothing to eat, and they would ask
14 him to go get flour. So he took his truck, and he
15 brought back about 10 tonnes of flour, oil, so that
16 they could survive because we were a minority, and we
17 had what he needed.
18 Q. You were a well-off family?
19 A. That's right. We were practically the
20 richest family. We were rich. My husband struggled
21 throughout his life, but he had everything and he loved
22 people. But after that, on the 25th, an order arrived
23 that we are going to be attacked by the Muslims. I was
24 very scared and a couple of our neighbours too.
25 I wanted to go to Dusina and then move to
1 Busovaca, and I asked my husband to let me go because
2 five women were going and six children and one man. He
3 said, "No, you won't go. Nothing will happen. These
4 are just fantasies." I asked him, I kept asking him
5 until about 2.00, and other people tried to convince
6 him. They said, "Let her go." He had his best man, he
7 was telling him, "Let him go with my wife, and if
8 nothing happens, they'll be back. This is not far."
9 At about 2.00, me and my daughter, my
10 15-year-old daughter --
11 Q. This was on the 25th?
12 A. Yes, on the 25th. We started off towards
13 Dusina. We went as a group.
14 Q. So who was with you?
15 A. My daughter was with me, also my
16 sister-in-law and her daughter. That's when we left,
17 but then before us, a man and a woman left. They were
18 older people. In the second group, a woman also -- two
19 women and four children went. They went in twos, so
20 that's about it. So that's how we left Lasva.
21 Q. So mainly women and children?
22 A. Yes, mainly women and children, and then that
23 one man who went with us.
24 Q. And the men remained in Dusina --
25 A. No, in Lasva. They all remained in Lasva.
1 Only three of us women and four children left Lasva.
2 No one else from the Croat population wanted to leave.
3 They didn't want to.
4 Q. Where did you go to?
5 A. I went to Dusina and I arrived in Dusina. It
6 was about half past three when we arrived. The weather
7 was terrible, rainy, windy --
8 Q. Was there any snow?
9 A. Yes, there was a little snow, so we couldn't
10 go to Busovaca. And then we thought, well, we'll just
11 stay here, spend the night here, and we'll leave in the
13 Q. Where did you spend the night, in whose
15 A. At Ivica Kegelj's, that is his house. There
16 were about 30 of us there altogether. The locals from
17 Dusina also wanted to go to Busovaca.
18 Q. They had also received some information that
19 the Muslims might attack?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. These 30-odd people that were staying at the
22 house, were they civilians, soldiers? Who were these
24 A. As far as soldiers are concerned, there were
25 only two or three of them because there weren't any
1 young people there at all. Practically all of us were
2 civilians. All of us were civilians practically, that
3 is to say, 25 civilians were in the house, and the
4 young men of 18 or 20, there were about five of them,
5 and they belonged to the army.
6 So we spent the night there, and at 5.00
7 a.m., we got up and sat at the table in order to take
8 our coffee, and all of a sudden an RPG hit the house.
9 We panicked. We didn't know what was going on, and --
10 JUDGE MAY: Can I interrupt? What's an RPG?
11 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: It's a rocket
12 launcher. It's for shelling.
13 A. Did he ask me that?
14 Q. Yes. Could you please explain to the Judge
15 what that is.
16 A. Oh, that's a shell, a Zolja. That's what we
17 call it.
18 Q. Could you please explain it to him?
19 A. I know that it makes a terrible hole in the
20 wall. It was dreadful.
21 Q. Is that a hand-held rocket launcher?
22 A. Yes, yes, that's right. I'm not very
23 knowledgable in these military matters, but, yes,
24 that's it.
25 Q. So in the morning, you heard something hit
1 the house; right?
2 A. Yes, and then I went to wake up my child. I
3 didn't want my child to be terrified, and I said, "Get
4 up, dear. There seems to be some shooting here." So
5 we all got up and went to the basement of that house,
6 and as we were descending into the basement, we heard
7 cries of "Allah-u-ekber," and I went back immediately
8 and called my husband, and I told him that we were
10 Q. What is "Allah-u-ekber"?
11 A. I don't know. It's a word of their's,
12 "Allah-u-ekber." I don't know what it means. I just
13 know that that is what they were shouting.
14 Q. All right. So you went to the basement, and
15 then you called your husband; is that right?
16 A. Yes, yes, and I was at the door, and I
17 already saw that some people were killed. A young man
18 had been killed.
19 Q. What was the name of this young man who you
20 saw in front of the house?
21 A. Drazan, Drazan Kegelj. I called my husband,
22 my husband was asleep, and I said, "Zvonko, Dusina is
23 in flames. We've been surrounded." And he said,
24 "Who? What?" And I said, "They're shouting
25 Allah-u-ekber," and he said, "All right. I'll come up
2 So I went back, and as soon as I closed the
3 door, again, one of these shells hit the house. We
4 were crying, we were screaming, actually, and five
5 minutes later, perhaps, we saw people in white with
6 green berets and green bands around their heads, and
7 they had clothing on --
8 Q. What do you mean "clothing"?
9 A. Well, there was snow, so they were wearing
10 white clothes.
11 Q. Were these white uniforms?
12 A. Yes, yes, like white uniforms. We saw them
13 shooting and hollering, and we opened the door of the
14 basement, and we were crying, of course, and one of us,
15 a man, Stipo Kegelj, went out and said, "Don't kill
16 us. We're surrendering." And they simply grabbed us
17 by the shoulders and got all of us out of the house,
18 lined us up by the wall of the house. Everything we
19 had, anything, rosaries, as we call them, you know,
20 whatever we had of that nature, they tore it off, and
21 also whoever was wearing a cross, they would throw the
22 cross down, and then they would trample all over it.
23 Q. Rosaries too? And where were these rosaries?
24 A. Yes. We did have rosaries. Some people wore
25 them around their necks, and others, elderly women,
1 held them in their hands and were praying. Then one of
2 the men said, "We should kill everyone over here."
3 Q. Excuse me, Mrs. Rajic. How many people did
4 you see there?
5 A. You mean Muslims?
6 Q. Yes, I mean Muslims.
7 A. Oh, there were a great many of them because
8 there were two groups. First, there was one group that
9 spoke our language, there must have been 50 of them,
10 and there was this other group, they had beards, and
11 they stood away from them, and they didn't move.
12 Q. Were all of them in uniform?
13 A. Yes, yes, all of them were in uniform.
14 Q. Did you see some of the local Muslims among
16 A. Only one. When he took us to the --
17 Q. Wait a second. Wait a second. Please don't
18 go ahead of your story. You said that you saw a group
19 of Muslim soldiers who were with you, another Muslim
20 group stood a bit further away. Did these people have
21 any kind of insignia on their uniforms?
22 A. Yes, they did, "BiH army," yes, yes, on that
23 green or, rather, on that white -- they had a green
24 band saying "Armija BH," BiH army.
25 Q. All right. What happened when you were
1 searched and when you were lined up by the wall?
2 A. A local man came and he took us through their
3 village with these army men of theirs. I didn't know
4 any of them. So we passed through the village twice,
5 up and down. Marko Rajic was wounded. They didn't
6 give him any kind of first aid or anything. A soldier
7 even kicked him in the very place where he was wounded,
8 and he asked for help but to no avail.
9 At the intersection, Edin Hakanovic selected
10 20 younger persons as a human shield, and he left the
11 old people at the intersection. My daughter and I were
12 there and quite a few other people and --
13 Q. I'm sorry. A human shield vis-a-vis who?
14 A. Vis-a-vis a hill where our people were. My
15 husband had come to that hill.
16 Q. So they stood behind you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. They put you in front?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On the hill that is facing you is where your
21 people are?
22 A. Yes, that is where our people are, my husband
23 and about 15 other members of the HVO.
24 Q. All right. You and your daughter were in
25 this human shield, weren't you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. This local person, Edin, he had a
3 loudspeaker, and he called out to my husband, and he
4 said, "Come down to negotiate," and he told him to come
5 down there so that they could reach some kind of an
6 agreement. I saw my husband walking down the hill, and
7 they could not have discussed anything because Edin
8 asked for them to go to Lasva for negotiations. My
9 husband refused. He asked for them to go to Zenica.
10 Throughout this period of time, there was
11 terrible shooting in Lasva, so the civilians who
12 remained down there were surrendered, and they took
13 them to the school in Lasva.
14 Q. What you are saying now refers to Lasva;
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. You heard about that later, that they were
18 shooting in Lasva?
19 A. No, it's not that I heard it later. I was
20 there in that clearing, and I could see my village, and
21 there was shooting there, terrible shooting.
22 Q. So you were taken to this intersection
23 somewhere halfway towards Lasva; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, yes, all of it is flat.
25 Q. So you saw your husband going downhill; is
1 that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And he asked for negotiations?
4 A. Yes. The last time he went down, he had a
5 little white flag or something, some kind of a white
6 rag or something in his hands, and he was waving with
7 it, and he was walking down, and then they agreed.
8 They said that the BiH army would send only 20 and that
9 they would leave their ammunition behind, and Zvonko's
10 men should do the same thing.
11 Q. So they were going to Zenica for
12 negotiations; right?
13 A. Yes, yes. I saw them leave, and then they
14 returned us to the village.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Shall we take a break now?
16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: All right.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac.
21 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,
22 Mr. President.
23 Q. So you stopped at the point when you were
24 talking about how you were returned to the village,
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. To the village of Dusina; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where were they taking you to?
5 A. They took us again towards the Muslim
6 village. We made about two rounds.
7 Q. Are you trying to say the Muslim part of the
9 A. Yes, the Muslim part of the village. They
10 mistreated us all along. They said that they would
11 kill all of us. They took us back to a Croat's house,
12 Stipo Kegelj's house. We were there altogether.
13 Q. So who was there, the people who were taken
14 as human shields?
15 A. Yes, that's right. And the elderly, the
16 women and their husbands.
17 Q. All of them are Croats; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, all of them are Croats.
19 Q. There were elderly people, younger people; is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Children?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many people were in Stipo Kegelj's house?
25 A. Well, I think up to 10, up to 10 elderly
2 Q. What about younger people?
3 A. Younger, well, three.
4 Q. That is to say a total of 13 persons?
5 A. Yes, a total of 13 persons, the elderly and
6 the three who were sitting there with us, because in
7 this house we were sitting in one room and they were
8 sitting in the other room.
9 Q. Who were these other people?
10 A. Croats too, except that they separated us.
11 The men, the elderly on one side, and the elderly with
12 the women and children on the other side. So there was
13 a door and we could see everything that was going on.
14 Then a group of Muslims said all sorts of things to us,
15 and they intimidated us and they mistreated us. They
16 said that they came to cleanse this terrain, that they
17 wanted to kill the Croats. Naturally, we bowed our
18 heads. You didn't dare watch.
19 Another one would come and then he would be
20 nice, because they had tours of guard duty of 15
21 minutes. Some would say, "Have no fear," and then
22 others would come in and say, "They haven't been killed
24 The elderly men were taken out twice in
25 groups of five or six. They beat them, they returned
1 black and blue, bloody. We were terrified. We cried.
2 "What do you need this for? What have we done to
3 you?" That is what an unknown gentleman had said.
4 They asked us to come in to cleanse this
5 terrain so that there would be no Croats left.
6 Q. That is what they told you?
7 A. Yes. The last time these five men who were
8 taken out, were taken towards Ivica Kegelj's house.
9 They tied Ivica's hands with a wire and Franjo Kristo's
10 hands with a wire too. But these five men walked
11 behind them and by the house. They were killed
12 individually. They were killed by an unidentified man.
13 Q. Did you see these people being killed?
14 A. Yes. Yes. It is not far away. It's only a
15 minute or two -- a minute or two distance to the other
16 house. It's practically next door. But Ivica Kristo
17 and Franjo Rajic, they put these people into the garage
18 and covered them with straw so no one could see them.
19 Q. I think you are a bit confused with the
21 A. No, I am not confused.
22 Q. Ivica Kegelj and Franjo Kristo?
23 A. Yes, yes --
24 Q. Just a minute, please. So afterwards they
25 had to move those people away, those people who had
1 been killed?
2 A. Yes, but they went together. They went
3 together and they had tied their hands behind their
4 backs. Then they killed these five men, and then these
5 two, that's seven, and then they tried to cover up
6 these killed men so that no one could see this.
7 Q. They did this on orders, right?
8 A. Naturally they did. The soldier who came to
9 take these people out ordered them to go out.
10 Q. Some of the Muslim soldiers ordered this?
11 A. Yes, yes, the BH army soldiers.
12 Q. Ordered them to take these bodies to the
13 garage; is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. And to leave them there?
16 A. Yes, to leave them there and to cover them
17 with straw, with hay, so that the blood couldn't be
19 Q. Do you know the names of these five men who
20 were killed?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Please tell us these names.
23 A. Vinko Kegelj, Niko Kegelj, Stipo Kegelj.
24 That's three. I can't mention them in the exact
25 order. If you had a list, I could --
1 Q. So you said Vinko Kegelj, Niko Kegelj?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And Stipo Kegelj?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And was Jozo Kegelj in this group?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right. We'll go back to that later. All
8 right. After that Ivica Kegelj and Franjo Kristo
9 returned to the house; is that correct?
10 A. Yes. Yes. Their hands were tied and these
11 Muslims from the BH army said that they would be killed
13 JUDGE CASSESE: I apologise for interrupting
14 you, but we don't understand the reason behind so many
15 -- your questions about so many details about alleged
16 massacres or gross misbehaviour by Muslims against the
17 Croats. What is the relevance to our case?
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: You will see from our
19 Defence that we believe that approximately the whole
20 story and the goriness of this war starts from Dusina.
21 The effect of what happened in Dusina on the
22 surrounding areas was truly enormous. Until then
23 people lived relatively peacefully and there weren't
24 any major problems between Muslims and Croats.
25 However, this story strained relations and indeed
1 brought about major problems and insecurity to this
2 area. That is the first point.
3 The second reason why we insist on this event
4 is the fact that this event influenced people's
5 consciousness in a major way and also their behaviour
6 on the 16th. I am not talking about the accused, I am
7 talking about other persons who were present in the
8 village of Ahmici on the day when the conflict
9 occurred. That event also had an effect on the
10 consciousness of the accused. We wished to explain why
11 they had weapons when information was received about
12 the Muslim attack.
13 Secondly, I also wish to say that the
14 indictment states that in the Lasva River Valley area,
15 from the first conflict on the 20th of October, 1992
16 and until the war broke out, on the 16th of April,
17 1993, it is stated all the time that the HVO attacked
18 unarmed Muslim civilians.
19 Also, in the background of the indictment it
20 is stated that these attacks intensified during the
21 month of January, 1993. So we are refuting these
22 counts in the indictment and we claim that there was no
23 attack on the Muslims.
24 We are proving that in the area of the Lasva
25 River Valley there were only attacks of the BH army
1 against Croat civilians.
2 In view of the fact that the Prosecutor has
3 been asserting the contrary without pinpointing
4 specific events, we are providing you with specific
5 events, and we shall also speak about specific
7 In this part the attack in Lasva, Dusina and
8 then Busovaca, it was exclusively an attack by the BH
9 army against Croat civilians, so we assert that these
10 assertions by the Prosecution are not correct, the
11 assertions cited in the indictment by the Prosecution.
12 So we believe that this witness, and the two
13 following witnesses, who will also talk about the same
14 events, are very important for us.
15 The second witness will testify about the
16 villages around Kacuni and about Busovaca, and the
17 third witness will testify about events in Jelinak,
18 Loncari and Putis, based on which the Prosecutor said
19 that these were attacks by the BH army, which is not
20 true. Because we would like to present what happened
21 in these places.
22 And, of course, it's up to this Trial Chamber
23 to decide which evidence you will admit.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Although we have some doubts
25 about the relevance of the testimony you propose that
1 we should hear, the relevance to Count 1, we are
2 prepared to admit this evidence, I mean the testimony
3 of the various witnesses.
4 However, may I, on behalf of the Court, call
5 up on you to try to be as concise as possible, not to
6 put too many questions regarding minute details. It is
7 sufficient for us to have some general picture of what
8 happened in that area. Thank you.
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
10 Q. So what happened after that, when the people
11 returned to their houses?
12 A. When they returned to the houses, people were
13 afraid. They didn't tell anybody what had happened.
14 Later a man who came to my room, to our room where the
15 women were, and some men, he had a kind of notebook.
16 He was wearing a green beret and a green band. He had
17 the markings of the 7th unit of the BH army. He sat
18 down at a sewing machine.
19 He was talking very coolly, normally, and he
20 called out Augustin Rados.
21 Q. Do you know the name of that man?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. The one you said who had come in?
24 A. Yes. His name is Serif Patkovic.
25 Q. So he called out Augustin Rados, you said?
1 A. He took him outside, took him to the other
2 house, killed him, then he came back. Then he said,
3 "Well, you see, Zvonko Rajic, he placed his family, his
4 wife somewhere in Croatia, and I have come to kill
5 them." He was saying that he had been to Croatia to
6 receive medical treatment, that he came in '92 to
7 Zenica from Croatia. And he said, "Thank you to
8 Mr. Tudjman for allowing me to kill his people."
9 He was saying this as he was sitting on top
10 of a sewing machine. And this woman, Zdravka Rados,
11 she said, "It's not true that Zvonko sent his wife and
12 children away." His wife is here and his child is
13 here. He asked where. She directed him towards me,
14 where I was sitting. He turned around. We weren't
15 even half a metre apart from one another and he said,
16 "I know your husband very well. Would you like me to
17 describe him?" I looked frightened. Why was he
18 telling me all of this? He said he was wearing a
19 coloured suit, he had a bullet vest, he had a scorpion,
20 and this is all true. I thought that they could see
21 one another on the road, because he had gone for
22 negotiations to Zenica. He said, "I killed him. I
23 fired a whole magazine into his head." I didn't
24 believe him. He was acting so coolly. I bent my head
25 and I started to cry, naturally. He said, "Go
1 upstairs," in this house, Stipo Kegelj's house.
2 I went. My child was crying.
3 Q. Before they took you to the first floor, did
4 they take away other people from the house?
5 A. Yes. Vojo Stanisic was taken away, and then
6 before that, his wife was killed too. Everything that
7 he had written in the notebook, he would read out,
8 "Take away outside and kill."
9 Q. What about Pero Ljubicic? Was Pero
10 Ljubicic --
11 A. Yes, Pero Ljubicic, yes, that's one of the
12 persons who I couldn't remember. That's how each one
13 of them was killed.
14 Q. How many people did Serif Patkovic take
15 outside of the house?
16 A. Three from my room, from the room where I
17 was, three, and then from another room, five, and then
18 specially these two people separately, Ivica and
19 Franjo, who had to cover these bodies up.
20 Q. Did you see the bodies of those who were
21 killed after that?
22 A. No, no, we saw them being taken out and being
23 killed. They probably hid them. We heard the shots,
24 we heard the shooting, so we knew what was happening,
25 and these people didn't come back again.
1 Q. What happened when they took you upstairs to
2 the first floor?
3 A. When I was going up the stairs, there was a
4 man dressed in white. He had a beard. He had a big
5 gun. He didn't say anything. The other person who was
6 taking me said, "We won't kill her. She has money.
7 We'll take that away from her," but they will kind of
8 keep me as a dessert. They took away 100.000 German
9 marks from me and 1.000 dollars. They gave me back 270
10 German marks. He hit me on the head with this money
11 and said that if I told anybody that this was
12 confiscated, they would kill me, and "Of course, it's
13 your turn anyway, so you will be killed." So I went
14 back downstairs in tears. My child was happy that I
16 Q. Do you remember what happened to Mladen
18 A. Yes. He was stripped naked, and his hands
19 were tied with wire. His ears were cut off. He was
20 taken through the Muslim village. Other things were
21 cut off too, so this man died. He was killed at the
23 Q. Did you see that any houses were being
24 torched in the village?
25 A. Yes, we saw that when we were leaving. When
1 they received news from Zenica that not a hair on our
2 heads could be harmed, they went mad. They were
3 enraged. They wanted to burn all of us. We could see
4 the canister where they were keeping the gasoline, and
5 they said, "We came here to kill all the Croats in this
7 Q. Then the order arrived to stop with the
8 killing; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where were you taken after that?
11 A. After that, at about 6.00, we were taken to
12 the schoolhouse in Lasva, but for two or three times,
13 we remained there. They were afraid. They were
14 debating whether we would be killed here in this band,
15 so it took us an hour or two with these stops to get to
16 the school.
17 Q. How did you go to Lasva, on foot?
18 A. Yes, on foot, and we were barefoot.
19 Q. When you were going from Lasva to Dusina, on
21 A. Yes, also on foot, yes.
22 Q. In Lasva, you were placed in the schoolhouse?
23 A. Yes, and all the civilians who happened to be
24 in Lasva, they were all captured. Old men, women,
25 children, they were all detained. When I was going
1 down the road, one person, Sisic, I know him well, his
2 last name, he asked us, "Where is Tatin now?" That was
3 my husband's nickname. I couldn't believe that he had
4 killed him. I thought maybe he wanted to scare me.
5 And then later when I stopped next to a wall, a young
6 man kept looking at me, and I kept looking back at him
7 out of fear. He approached me. He had a gun. I
8 thought he would kill me. He said, "Don't look at me
9 anymore. I did not kill your husband." And then it
10 became clear to me that this man had killed my husband,
12 Q. When were you released?
13 A. It was 2.00 a.m. There was a guard. We went
14 to my uncle's house. The next morning at 8.00, I went
15 to our house. Everything had been taken away, and the
16 money that I had kept, that I had hidden in my chimney,
17 even that was found. This was dead capital but they
18 had taken it all away. Batan Pasalic, who was in
19 Bozici, was driving my husband's car, and I met him
20 when we were going to the schoolhouse in Lasva from
21 Dusina. He was sitting in my husband's car. I thought
22 maybe -- I had no idea that they had killed him.
23 Q. Your house was looted?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You left Lasva in the morning?
1 A. Yes, I left Lasva for Zenica. My two
2 children were there at my parents' house, so then I was
3 transferred from my parents' house to Cajdras for
4 safety because I was being followed. I noticed a car
5 that was following me, so for my safety, I spent nine
6 days in Cajdras until the funerals were held for those
7 who had been killed.
8 Q. When did you receive information that the
9 body of your husband had been exchanged?
10 A. When did I get this message?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. What do you mean "exchanged"?
13 Q. That it had been returned to the Croats.
14 A. You mean to the hospital in Zenica? Yes,
15 that's when I heard after five or six days that
16 UNPROFOR had come and taken the dead bodies to the
17 morgue in Zenica and that funeral preparations were
18 being made.
19 Q. Would you please look at a tape now, and at
20 the beginning of this tape, there is a statement by
21 your husband regarding some kind of misunderstanding
22 about the size and the division of the municipality of
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The second part of the tape shows the bodies
1 of those killed, so if you are not able to watch --
2 A. I will watch.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The videotape is marked
5 JUDGE CASSESE: The transcript, what is the
7 THE REGISTRAR: The number of the transcript
8 is D62A/2.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters
11 please have a copy?
12 JUDGE CASSESE: The interpreters would like
13 to have a copy.
14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Now we will look at the
16 (Videotape played)
17 THE INTERPRETER: Conflict from Gornji Vakuf
18 has switched to this area of Central Bosnia where the
19 HVO from Busanica, so according to some information
20 from the accords in Geneva, the Travnik province
21 stretches to the River Bosnia.
22 This is not what's on the transcript.
23 We want peace, and we will wait as people
24 wait for a football match to be over, so we will know
25 that it is over and what the final results are. This
1 is what we're waiting for.
2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you. The problem
3 is that the text is quite inaudible. The tape is quite
5 Q. Mrs. Rajic, could you tell us, do you
6 remember when this took place?
7 A. I don't know when this was recorded, I wasn't
8 present, but I think this was probably at the end of
10 Q. It's obvious that --
11 A. Yes, this happened in November. Yes, in
13 Q. In view of what your husband said, that he
14 didn't care who the Lasva municipality would be awarded
15 to, he was, first of all, in favour of peace?
16 A. Yes, he was a very peace-loving man. He
17 loved everybody.
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could we look at the
19 second part of the tape now, please?
20 (Videotape played)
21 THE INTERPRETER: These are the massacred
22 people from Lasva, and the names are Zvonko Rajic,
23 Franjo Rajic, Stipo Kegelj, Niko Kegelj, Vinko Kegelj,
24 Dragan Kegelj, Pero Ljubicic, Vojo Stanisic, Mladen
25 Kegelj, and Augustin Rados.
1 In attacks by the Muslim aggressor army, they
2 lost their lives in Lasva. May they rest in peace.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac,
4 don't you think we could stop now?
5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Okay.
6 Q. Have you seen this tape before?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you recognise your husband?
9 A. Yes, with the hole in his chest where they
10 plucked his heart out.
11 Q. Would you please look at this list that I
12 will give you and tell us whether these people are the
13 people who were killed on that day?
14 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked
16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
17 Q. There is a list of those who were executed,
18 also captured, who are missing, and also those who are
19 wounded. Are the names on that list familiar to you?
20 A. Yes. I only know Jozo Kegelj. He's alive.
21 Stipo, where did I see him? Just a minute.
22 Q. Can you tell us whether these people were
23 killed on that day?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Also, could you please tell us whether this
1 information on the ages of Stipo Kegelj, Vojo Stanisic,
2 and Pero Ljubicic is true?
3 A. Yes, they are true.
4 Q. These were older men.
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. Could you also please tell us whether, after
7 what happened in Lasva and Dusina on the 26th, any
8 Croats remained living there?
9 A. No, not a single Croat lives in Lasva
11 Q. What about Dusina?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Tell me, have any of the Croats returned?
14 A. No. At Dusina, the houses are burned down,
15 and in Lasva where I lived and many other people,
16 Muslims moved into these houses.
17 Q. All right. Thank you, Mrs. Rajic. I have
18 concluded my questioning.
19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Also, I would like to
20 tender into evidence as Defence Exhibits D62/2, and
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection from the
24 MR. BLAXILL: No objection.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection. They are
1 admitted into evidence.
2 I wonder whether Counsel Radovic would like
3 to cross-examine.
4 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you, but no.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.
6 Any other cross-examination by any other Defence
7 counsel. Counsel Pavkovic?
8 MR. PAVKOVIC: No, Mr. President. No one
9 else will examine the witness.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. It's for the
11 Prosecution to cross-examine the witness.
12 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, the Prosecution
13 proposes to ask no questions in cross-examination.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. There will be
16 no --
17 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, Your Honour, but
18 you also had document D61/2, the map, and you didn't
19 ask ...
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes. I would like
21 D61/2 to be admitted into evidence as well.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. It is admitted into
23 evidence. So there will be, therefore, no
24 re-examination. The Court has no questions for the
25 witness. I assume there's no objection to the witness
1 being released.
2 Madam, thank you for giving evidence in
3 court. You may now be released. Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you too, sir.
5 (The witness withdrew)
6 JUDGE CASSESE: So who will be our next
8 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, it will be
9 Jadranka Tolic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. She will be
11 examined in chief by you, Counsel Susak?
12 MR. SUSAK: Exactly.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Then could we have a rough
14 idea of the following witnesses? After Mrs. Tolic,
15 it's Mr. Stojak?
16 MR. SUSAK: Those who are on the list, the
17 list that was already provided to the Prosecutors. I
18 think it's going to be Dragan Stojak.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Followed by Mario
20 Rajic and Ljuban Grubesic, I assume.
21 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, with
22 your permission, I wish to say that two witnesses have
23 not arrived from Bosnia or, rather, they arrived only
24 last night. Mario Rajic and Stojak are the persons in
25 question. So, therefore, we cannot hear them now,
1 according to the list that we submitted to the Court,
2 but they will be the first tomorrow after Jadranka
3 Tolic. First it's going to be Grubesic, then Stojak,
4 and then Mario Rajic.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
6 (The witness entered court)
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mrs. Tolic.
8 Good morning. Could you please make the solemn
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
14 seated. Counsel Susak will examine this witness in
16 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 WITNESS: JADRANKA TOLIC
18 Examined by Mr. Susak:
19 Q. Mrs. Tolic, good day to you.
20 A. Good day.
21 Q. I shall be putting questions to you, and you
22 are going to answer them.
23 A. All right.
24 Q. I wish to draw your attention to the
25 following: Please pause awhile before you answer
1 because the interpreters are supposed to do their part
2 of the job too.
3 Would you please tell me where you were born
4 and when?
5 A. I was born on the 12th of January, 1961, and
6 I was born in Zenica.
7 Q. What are you by profession?
8 A. I am a nurse. I worked in the general
9 hospital in Zenica.
10 Q. Could you speak slower, please? You said
11 that you worked in Zenica. Where?
12 A. In the hospital in the central laboratory.
13 Q. Could you please tell me who your family
14 members are?
15 A. I have a husband, Zoran, and I have two sons,
16 Adrijan and Toni.
17 Q. When were they born?
18 A. The older one was born in 1981, and the
19 younger one was born in 1986.
20 Q. Now that we're on this subject, I'm going to
21 ask you about your brother too. You also had a
22 brother, didn't you? What was his name?
23 A. My brother's name was Tomislav Trogrlic. He
24 was killed as a civilian when he tried to leave Zenica.
25 Q. When was this?
1 A. I don't know exactly. It was at the end of
2 June, the beginning of July 1993.
3 Q. When was he born?
4 A. He was born on the 21st of June, 1972.
5 Q. You said that he was killed as he was trying
6 to leave Zenica. Could you please tell me when you
7 found out about this? When did you find out about the
8 fact that he was killed or did you just think he was
10 A. We did not find out about the killing
12 Q. Could you please tell us a bit about this.
13 A. Towards the end of April I fled to Busovaca,
14 the military forces took me there and the telephone
15 lines were still on, and I got a message from my mother
16 in Zenica that my brother would try to join me there,
17 because, in Zenica, there was great intolerance. Young
18 people were being persecuted, Croats. My brother tried
19 to get out of Zenica to join me. He left via
20 Cajdras, Vjetrenica and Poculica. He was killed
21 somewhere up there. However, my mother informed me
22 that he was supposed to come, but he never came.
23 Then we were in correspondence. I received
24 letters through the U.N. They would come to Busovaca
25 and bring humanitarian aid to us, and they brought us
1 letters too. There I realised that he was not at home
2 and that he hadn't come to stay with me either. Then I
3 reported him as missing, hoping that the International
4 Red Cross would find him somewhere.
5 However, we did not succeed in this effort.
6 For two or two-and-a-half years we did not know whether
7 he was dead or alive. We found out only in 1996. I
8 heard from a relative of mine who spent the entire war,
9 until 1994, in Cajdras. Some policeman who worked in
10 that part of Zenica came to have a cup of coffee at her
11 place and they asked her who she was and where she was
12 from. When they heard that her last name was Trogrlic,
13 they said that to the best of their knowledge a man
14 called Trogrlic was killed at the end of June,
15 beginning of July, 1993 at Vjetrenica.
16 When the cease-fire was established in '94,
17 she came to Busovaca and she told me about this. Then
18 I started looking for my brother, and I went to Zenica
19 to the International Red Cross, to the Red Cross of the
20 town of Zenica. I asked other people from town to help
21 me find him.
22 When we found out what the exact location
23 was, we agreed on the exhumation, and then his mortal
24 remains were transferred to Split. That is where the
25 exhumation took place. And he was buried in Mostar.
1 Q. All right. Now we shall go back to other
2 questions, to the very beginning. You said you lived
3 and worked in Zenica; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you please tell us what the basic
6 structure of Zenica was, tell us very briefly.
7 A. Yes. I shall. There was a census in 1990
8 and about 11 per cent of the population was Serbs, 17
9 per cent were Croats, and the rest -- there were two or
10 three per cent who were others, and all the rest were
12 Q. Could you please tell us what the relations
13 were between the Muslims and the Croats, what they were
14 like before the conflict and what about after the
16 A. Well, before the conflict, when the
17 aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina started, the Serb
18 aggression, then the Territorial Defence was
19 organised. Then there was mobilisation of all who were
20 employed. They received their war assignments in the
21 places where they worked and then they were taken to
22 garrisons where the former Yugoslav People's Army, the
23 JNA had been. All the citizens were there together.
24 There were Serbs and Croats and Muslims in that
25 Territorial Defence, I mean. Then it was being said
1 that this would be a joint defence against the
3 Q. You are referring to the Territorial Defence
4 when you say TO?
5 A. Yes, I am referring to the Territorial
6 Defence of the city of Zenica.
7 Q. Who took part in this Territorial Defence?
8 A. Croats and Muslims did.
9 Q. All right. When were the relations between
10 the Croats and the Muslims aggravated?
11 A. First there were milder forms of aggravation,
12 because they were defending themselves against the
13 Serbs, and the Serbs were attacking from the village of
14 Cekrcici, from some mountain, I think. It was mostly
15 Territorial Defence units that went up there. It was
16 noticed up there and people were saying that Croats
17 were mainly put in the first lines.
18 Then people started dodging the TO, the
19 Territorial Defence. Then the relations worsened even
20 further during the attack in January, 1993. However,
21 there is another thing I have to mention, something
22 that happened earlier. When the Mujahedins came to the
23 town of Zenica, then there was a worsening of
24 relations. Also, when the crime in Dusina took place,
25 and also the attack on Busovaca.
1 Q. You mentioned the Mujahedins. Who are these
3 A. The Mujahedins were foreign nationals who
4 came to Bosnia-Herzegovina and who behaved differently
5 from our local Muslims. However, they brought along
6 with them certain changes, laws of their own. Until
7 then there was some kind of tolerance. We even got
8 along pretty well with one another. But when the
9 Mujahedins came, they tried to re-educate our Muslims.
10 They tried to change them. Actually, the Mujahedins
11 hated everything that was not Muslim.
12 Q. How did you, the city people, recognise the
13 Mujahedins? How did you know that you saw them?
14 A. Yes. Well, I knew when I would see them
15 because they all wore beards. Our local Muslims,
16 citizens of Zenica who had joined them, also started
17 wearing beards, and they wore a special kind of
19 Q. So that's how you recognised them?
20 A. Yes, that's how we recognised them. The
21 Mujahedins patrolled the streets and they were
22 intimidating the non-Muslim population. They sang
23 different songs. And our people who joined them --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Just a minute, Madam.
25 Could you please speak a little bit slower.
1 A. Well, at that time fear prevailed, because
2 they were patrolling the streets and they were marching
3 along the streets and they were singing from Sarajevo
4 to Vranducka Vrata, there will be no Serbs or Croats.
5 They also had other slogans, like this
6 country Bosnia will be Turkish. This was a sign to the
7 non-Muslim population that there would be no life for
8 us there, that there could be no life together. That
9 we would not feel free there, that we will not be able
10 to live and work there as we had until then.
11 Q. Could you please speak slower.
12 A. All right.
13 Q. And now you said that you worked in the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How long?
17 A. From 1981 until 1992.
18 Q. What were the relations between the Croats
19 and Muslims like in the hospital itself? I am
20 referring to the physicians employed there.
21 A. Well, in 1991, political debate started about
22 the representatives of the Muslim, Croat and Serb
23 peoples. There were squabbles every day, quarrels.
24 The majority of the population in Zenica was Muslim and
25 also most of the people employed at the hospital were
1 Muslim too. We started feeling threatened among them.
2 That is exactly what they wanted. Because in '92 a
3 large number of expelled Muslims from other parts of
4 Bosnia started coming into Zenica. At work they
5 started telling us that there was no room for the Serbs
6 and Croats there, that they should leave the hospital
7 so that they could find jobs for their refugees.
8 Q. May I help you at this point. Could you
9 please tell us what the reasons are, why you left the
10 Zenica hospital?
11 A. Yes. I am going to tell you my reasons. One
12 of my bosses, the second one in line, would often
13 invite me to her office. She would debate various
14 points with me and would often ask me how I could be a
15 Croat, because I was born in Bosnia. It wasn't only
16 once. Twice a week or once a week she would call me in
17 for such interrogations and she would ask for an
18 answer. I also had other unpleasant situations in the
19 laboratory. We wore white uniforms and then when they
20 got dirty we would send them out for washing. Then
21 they were sent back and there were crosses on our
22 sleeves or on our pockets. That was a sign that was
23 supposed to show who the non-Muslim workers were. And
24 that offended me terribly. Then there were these other
25 interrogations, and they said we had drawn this
1 ourselves. We couldn't even work and breathe in the
2 hospital normally, let alone do something like that.
3 Q. Do you know of any other similar incidents in
4 the hospital, especially how were the Croats treated
5 and how were the Muslims treated? Again, I am talking
6 about the period before the conflict or, rather, before
7 the attack on the 18th of April, 1993.
8 A. Yes, I can tell you that the Muslims did not
9 conduct themselves well towards non-Muslim wounded who
10 came from the surrounding towns around Zenica. There
11 was fighting in Zepce, Orasje, and so on, Uskoplje. So
12 I think they neglected people. Not so much in that
13 period, but later this became very pronounced.
14 Q. When you say later, you mean after the 18th.
15 Now, let's go back to the beginning. You mentioned
16 that many things were getting worse after the attack
17 against Busovaca in January. What happened in Zenica
18 the day before the attack in Busovaca? What was the
19 atmosphere in Zenica?
20 A. The atmosphere at the end of January, in '93,
21 was very tense, but ordinary citizens didn't know what
22 was going on. The town was already in darkness in the
23 early afternoon. It would get dark around 4.00 or 5.00
24 p.m. We had no electricity at night, so the town was
25 dark. So this had a terrible effect. There were armed
1 soldiers in the buildings of Zenica. On any higher
2 building, where they had a good view, there were sniper
3 nests. This was very frightening for us. We didn't
4 know why, against whom.
5 The citizens felt very insecure. There was a
6 kind of calm. You couldn't even talk loudly. We would
7 whisper. We didn't know what was going on.
8 Q. Were Muslims arriving at that town from
9 Busovaca to Zenica?
10 A. Just by coincidence, I was walking in the
11 daytime, I live in Zenica, there are four tall
12 high-rise buildings, so maybe I was going shopping and
13 I was passing by. I saw a truck and there were two
14 vehicles and women and children were coming out of
15 these vehicles. And this was unusual -- this was not
16 unusual to see in Zenica, because expelled persons
17 would arrive from different places every day. This
18 looked very dismal. People were crying.
19 So I asked them where they were from, because
20 people would come, these expelled people would come to
21 the door everyday. They would ask for help in bread or
22 money. So when I saw them, I asked them where they
23 were from. They said from Busovaca. I was surprised.
24 I thought, "What is happening there?" If
25 they arrived -- if expelled persons were coming from
1 Busovaca to Zenica, this was not clear to me. I was
2 confused when I went home, because earlier people were
3 arriving from Potkozarje or Gorazde, but I was very
4 surprised how come these people came from Busovaca
5 because nothing had happened before then. At least we
6 didn't know about anything.
7 Q. What was your experience at the time when the
8 Muslims were arriving to Zenica? Did they visit you in
9 your apartments, did they do anything?
10 A. Well, I couldn't really say anything about
11 that. I don't know about that period, because if
12 somebody did come to the door to ask for bread, I never
13 asked where they were from. I could say for the later
15 Q. All right. We'll talk about that later,
16 because we will discuss the other events after the 18th
17 of April.
18 You said you worked in the hospital. After
19 that, where did you go, after you left the hospital?
20 A. Well, I already told my reasons for leaving
21 the Zenica hospital. I would like to add another
22 reason. This would be instructive. I am a graduate of
23 medical high school and I was a senior lab technician.
24 We had received new computers for blood analysis, and
25 there were about 45 of us. I was among the five chosen
1 to be senior lab technicians to work on these
2 computers. So during these events, in the war, I was
3 removed from this post and I was given the lowest
4 ranking post in the lab. They returned me like a
5 beginner to work on urine analysis.
6 So I left the hospital. For a period I was
7 at home, and then I found out that a kind of medical
8 unit at the crisis committee was being formed where
9 Croat people were gathering. So I reported there to
10 work as a nurse. They accepted me. I started with the
11 establishment of the medical unit.
12 Q. Where was this located in Zenica?
13 A. At the beginning we started in the elementary
14 school, Sestra Dietrich Ditrih. And then because the
15 school year was supposed to start, we had to vacate
16 those premises and then we went to Cajdras to work. We
17 worked in a private house from there that belonged to a
18 Croat who was working abroad.
19 Q. Okay. So now we have finished with the
20 period of your work in the Zenica hospital, and we will
21 move to another question. It's a kind of
22 continuation. When did all these incidents, all these
23 incidents of behaviour, untoward behaviour of Muslims
24 towards Croats, when did the division between Muslims
25 and Croats take place, generally speaking, in the
1 Territorial Defence and in the authorities?
2 A. Well, I already said that Croats, Muslims and
3 a small number of Serbs had been part of the TO who had
4 not already left the town, but the division came about
5 when the Muslim politicians -- I don't know how to call
6 them -- when the Muslim people started to form the BH
7 army. They started to form some kind of defence
8 forces. There was the Patriotic League, the Green
9 League, the 7th Muslim, then the Mujahedins founded the
10 MOS, the Muslim defence forces, MOS. So these were all
11 things being formed so that the Muslim people could
12 defend themselves.
13 Q. So there were these several formations?
14 A. Yes, that's right. Then the Croats saw that
15 Muslims were grouping themselves in their national
16 structures. The Croats felt insecure because we were
17 so few in number, and they had already been so many
18 indications that we were not welcome, and that we
19 didn't feel safe.
20 So out of fear Croats started to organise
21 Crisis Staffs. And, depending on the part of the town
22 where there were, perhaps, majority Croat population,
23 this is where these staffs were formed.
24 Q. Okay. You mentioned MOS. What does that
1 A. Muslim liberation forces.
2 Q. Who comprised this organisation?
3 A. The Muslim defence force were comprised
4 mostly of Mujahedins and they were joined by local
5 Muslims. Not all, of course. Mostly they were in the
6 BH army, but a large number of them also joined the
8 Q. Did MOS operate together with the BH army or
10 A. Well, let me tell you. All the units that
11 were being formed, I would call them altogether by one
12 name, Muslim forces, including the BH army, the Green
13 Legion, the Patriotic Legion, and the MOS, Mujahedin
14 organisation. These were all Muslim forces. They
15 operated together in coordination, and that's how they
16 carried out their tasks.
17 Q. As far as the civilian authorities, was there
18 any police in Zenica? Was there military and civilian
20 A. Yes. There were two police forces. There
21 was the civilian police of the town of Zenica and there
22 was the military police. When the Crisis Staff of the
23 Croatian people was formed, they started -- also they
24 elected some people who were familiar with these
25 affairs. They were officials in the civilian
1 component, so they came to the Crisis Staffs of the
2 Croatian people at that time. And then they founded
3 the police of the Croatian people.
4 Q. Yes, go ahead. You can continue.
5 A. Well, I really couldn't say anything more
6 about this.
7 Q. All right. In view of the fact that you were
8 in Zenica, were there any terrible incidents by Muslims
9 against Croats? For example, were there any rapes?
10 A. Well, I heard of several cases.
11 Q. Would you please tell us, two cases?
12 A. Well, I can tell you that Ana Spasojevic, an
13 old lady who was over 60 years old, was in her house,
14 and this was in a village quite high up. She was there
15 with her son, who is mentally retarded. They were
16 alone in the house -- no, her husband was there too.
17 No, her husband was in the hospital at the time. He
18 died shortly afterwards. They were attacked by masked
19 persons. The old woman was raped. Her name was Ana
21 Then after that she and her son were both
22 tied to the bed until the neighbours found them. And
23 this was done by some masked persons. They had black
24 masks on their heads.
25 Q. What about another case?
1 A. Well, another case that I heard had happened
2 somewhere in Drivusa. That's the Drivusa settlement.
3 It's a young woman who had two young children. She had
4 been raped in front of her children and her mother and
5 father-in-law. I don't know her name. I heard about
6 both of these cases.
7 Q. We will move to another question now. You
8 mentioned these incidents before that had happened.
9 What were the reasons for Croats to leave Zenica?
10 Could you tell us?
11 A. The reasons why Croats left Zenica were that
12 the life conditions were intolerable, but the main
13 reasons were the attack on Dusina and the crimes in
14 Dusina, and this horrified the citizens, Croats in
15 Zenica, and other citizens. Then the attack on
16 Busovaca. Then from that time Croats in Zenica felt
17 very insecure. They were afraid for their own lives
18 and the lives of their children.
19 Q. What do you know about Dusina?
20 A. Well, I know that Dusina is a place before
21 Zenica, when you go from Sarajevo towards Zenica. It's
22 before Zenica. And a major crime was committed there,
23 that 10 or 12 people were killed there.
24 Q. Why do you think this crime in Dusina was
1 A. Well, I never know why people commit crimes.
2 Q. And then one of the reasons that caused fear
3 among the citizens was because of what happened in
4 Dusina. Was there any fear as a result of the arrest
5 of Zivko Totic?
6 A. Yes, this was another case. This happened in
7 Zenica itself. We could see this for ourselves. We
8 could see what they did.
9 Q. May I just interrupt you. Did you see that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you please tell us about it.
13 A. Well, when it was happening I didn't see it.
14 I came by that road shortly afterwards, because I was
15 on my way to work in Cajdras. So this happened close
16 to my house. So I had to pass by. And I was passing
17 by and I happened to see. I was on my way to work. I
18 didn't know what was going on. But then I came by and
19 I saw the car where our people had been killed.
20 Q. Did you know anybody among the victims?
21 A. Yes. In that crime, and I will call it a
22 crime, my cousin, Ivica Vidovic, was there, and then
23 two other people that I knew, Tihomir Ljubic and Anto
24 Zrnic, I knew the two of them. There was also Marko
25 Ljubic, but I hadn't seen him before.
1 Q. All right. Did you see the police when you
2 were passing by?
3 A. Yes. They were already there. I think they
4 were from the civilian police of the city of Zenica.
5 They were blocking the road -- people were blocking the
6 road so you couldn't get past.
7 Q. So now we'll move onto something else. It's
8 a continuation. Who do you think arrested Zivko Totic
9 and why?
10 A. Yes, I know, I heard from my neighbours,
11 because I lived there. I had a house there. I heard
12 that they saw a minivan and people with beards. These
13 were members of the Muslim armed forces, meaning
14 Mujahedins. They arrested him and they killed Zivko
15 Totic's escort.
16 Q. How many people were killed in the escort
18 A. Four were killed from the escort and a
19 passer-by was killed too.
20 Q. When Zivko Totic was captured, and you said
21 he was captured by the Mujahedins?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who negotiated for the release of Zivko
24 Totic? Was it MOS or was it the BH army?
25 A. Who negotiated? Well, I wouldn't know that.
1 But I know when Zivko was exchanged. The negotiations
2 were conducted by members of the BH army and the U.N.
3 Q. So who was exchanged for Zivko Totic?
4 A. When he arrived to Vitez and Busovaca, we met
5 in Busovaca and he told me that he was exchanged and
6 some captured Mujahedins were exchanged for him.
7 Q. So the BH army carried out the negotiations
8 and exchanged Zivko Totic for Mujahedins. What does
9 this tell you?
10 A. Well, I said already earlier that these were
11 Muslim forces, and they did everything in
12 coordination. Both the Mujahedin and the BH army,
13 these were not separate structures. The Mujahedin were
14 part of the BH army.
15 Q. I'm asking you this because the BH army, in
16 fact, representatives of the BH army, sometimes
17 justified themselves by saying that they did not have
18 any tight coordination links with MOS?
19 A. That's not true. They did closely coordinate
20 with them, so MOS, the Mujahedin, would carry out some
21 bad things which the BH army wanted to conceal, and
22 this is how they would make excuses. They would say,
23 "We had nothing to do with this. We cannot do
24 anything," but this wasn't true.
25 Q. All right. We have now come to the 18th of
1 April, 1993, and that is to say, the date when the
2 Croats of Zenica were attacked, and we're going to say
3 a few words about that. Where were you on the 17th?
4 On the 17th of April, did you notice anything in the
5 town of Zenica on that day or before that?
6 A. I'm sorry. I would like to start with the
8 Q. All right. A day or two earlier.
9 A. Yes. I would like to start with the 15th.
10 Q. I'm sorry. Just one more thing,
11 Mr. President.
12 Do you know why the Mujahedin captured Zivko
13 Totic, but then you took me back to the 15th. Do you
14 know? Please tell us now.
15 A. From the 18th until the 15th -- well, I'll
16 tell you my conclusions after the 18th. I think that
17 they arrested him. I think they arrested him for one
18 reason so that the HVO, already at that point, would
19 remain without its main staff, that is to say, that
20 they abducted the key man of the Croat people. We were
21 left without a leader after Zivko was arrested. We
22 didn't know what to do because he was the most
23 knowledgable man amongst us.
24 Q. Was that already a sign that the Muslims were
25 preparing attack against the Croats?
1 A. We did not think so then. We did not know
2 it. On the 15th and all the way up to the 18th, we
3 expected them to return Zivko to us, and that was the
4 only subject of people's conversations, and we had no
5 intimations of the attack.
6 Q. Now you say that you will say something about
7 the 15th and the 16th of April, so please proceed.
8 A. I shall start with the 15th. Zivko Totic was
9 arrested. His escorts were killed. It was a terrible
10 sight. For us, the Croatian people, it was so
11 discouraging that we did not know what to think. This
12 was proof to us that we certainly could not go on
13 living there, nor could we behave and work freely and
15 There was chaos in the town of Zenica. They
16 arrested Zivko. They killed five men, also a fifth
17 one, an accidental passerby. This had a terrible
18 effect on all the citizens of Zenica, not only Croats,
19 all honest citizens. Chaos prevailed in town. The
20 town was blocked. There were police everywhere. Until
21 then, police patrols were not that frequent. I know.
22 I went to work on the 15th in the morning from
23 Podbrezje to Cajdras. That is where I went to work.
24 We had some kind of a mini clinic there, a mini
1 I saw what happened. I couldn't pass because
2 the police wouldn't let us pass, and I went back to
3 Trokuce where the HVO headquarters was. They called,
4 from there, the hospital in Cajdras, and they said that
5 they should send an ambulance to pick me up because
6 they found out that only ambulances could drive through
7 town. So it was an ambulance that came to pick me up
8 at Trokuce, and I was taken to Cajdras. They returned
9 me to Trokuce from there too because that is where the
10 Croat headquarters was, the HVO headquarters, and there
11 were several medical persons there. The people who
12 remained, rather, at headquarters wanted to have one
13 medical person there, if need be. Zivko Totic's
14 brother was there, and he didn't feel very well, and
15 that is why they took me back there.
16 So in the morning of the 15th, I took my
17 first aid bag and some medical material, infusions,
18 things like that, things I thought that would be needed
19 just in case, and I returned to the headquarters. This
20 was actually the building of a company called
21 Vatrostana, and that is where the HVO headquarters was.
22 Q. All right. Now we're going to move on to the
23 18th of April, to the attack.
24 A. All right. From the 15th to the 18th, I
25 stayed at headquarters. I lived nearby --
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you. Do
2 you mind if we take a break now, a 15-minute break,
3 before you move on to the 18th of April?
4 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, this is the best
5 point of all because I'm moving on to another subject.
6 Thank you.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Fifteen minutes.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?
11 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. I shall continue my questions. We have
13 already touched upon the 18th of April, 1993. Do you
14 know whether there were any attacks in Zenica on that
16 A. Well, this is the way it was. I repeat, the
17 15th, I went back to headquarters. I was in Podbrezje
18 or, rather, in Trokuce where the headquarters building
19 was, and I stayed there until the 18th. There was
21 We, the others who were working at
22 headquarters, we just knew that they asked for the
23 unconditional release of Zivko Totic. Obviously, they
24 had not succeeded in this. There was chaos there. I
25 was there to take care of the men at headquarters. For
1 example, Zivko Totic's brother, Zeljko Totic, that was
2 his youngest brother, he was in very bad shape. He
3 needed pills. He needed tranquilisers.
4 On the morning of the 18th -- well, I spent
5 all the night there. From the 15th until the 18th, I
6 was there at headquarters. My home was nearby, and I
7 would only go occasionally to refresh myself. On the
8 18th in the evening, I was also at headquarters. I was
9 awake until midnight or even after midnight, 1.00. I
10 went to a room where there were mattresses on the
11 floor, and I wanted to get some rest. I fell asleep.
12 In the morning, I heard a shot ring out. It
13 wasn't a shot from a rifle. It was like a grenade or
14 something like that. It was twenty past five in the
15 morning. I jumped up. I put my shoes on, and I
16 realised that there was another military man there, and
17 we went out in front of the building. In front of the
18 building, we were all terrified, frightened. We heard
19 shots from rifles. We were terribly afraid. Then we
20 finally realised that it had started, that that was an
21 attack on headquarters.
22 Around ten to six, they brought a man to me,
23 and they asked me to help him, but I could not help
24 him. He was already dead. His name was Vlado
25 Lovrenovic. He was my neighbour. He was a civilian.
1 He was not a member of the HVO units.
2 Q. Can I just interrupt you a bit? You said
3 that you were in Trokuce, and that's where the
4 headquarters was. Could you please tell me what
5 happened after Trokuce in terms of your movement?
6 A. Certainly. The attack started at twenty past
7 five, and we stayed there for awhile because of the
8 shooting, and then we moved out at around 8.30. From
9 Trokuce, we went to a village which is above that area,
10 and that is called Podbrezje. That is where I lived.
11 That is where my home was.
12 Then we went further up, above that village
13 of mine, and that is where they told me that there were
14 some people who were wounded. The headquarters, the
15 members of the main staff and all those who were
16 working there, went ahead, and I had to stay behind and
17 wait for the wounded to come in so that I could help
18 the wounded person, and a few men stayed to help me
19 with him, that is to say, to carry him. His name was
20 Marko Dujic. He was shot in the chest, and I gave him
21 an infusion there. I bandaged his wounds.
22 We tried to catch up with the rest who were
23 ahead of us. We went from Trokuce to Podbrezje and
24 from Podbrezje to Zmajevac. Zmajevac is a hill. We
25 reached that hill around 11.00, 11.30. From there,
1 others took over this wounded man. There was a car
2 there. I think it was a minivan. It was not a proper
3 ambulance. We had to go on foot all the way, the
4 military and the civilians.
5 Q. You said "the military and the civilians."
6 Where did you go from Zmajevac?
7 A. From Zmajevac, we went from Grm, and from
8 Grm, we came to Cajdras.
9 Q. Can you tell me where this place Cajdras is?
10 A. Cajdras? Cajdras, there is a road going
11 through Cajdras that links Zenica to Vitez.
12 Q. When you reached Cajdras, how much time did
13 you spend there? Are we still talking about the 18th?
14 A. Yes, we're still talking about the 18th. We
15 could have reached Cajdras around 12.30 or 1.00. I
16 stayed there until 11.00 p.m. There were many
17 civilians there, also the military. There were many
18 people there. Panic prevailed. Children were crying.
19 Old women were passing out. My colleagues and I had a
20 lot of things to do.
21 Q. Were you still in the medical corps?
22 A. Yes, throughout.
23 Q. You say that you were there until 11.00 p.m.?
24 What happened after that?
25 A. After that, the U.N. forces came in, the
1 joint authorities or the police. There were some
2 negotiations there in a building, in a house across the
3 street from the church, and they asked the military to
4 surrender their weapons unconditionally, to board
5 buses, and then they were taken to the corrections
6 house. Mothers were crying because of their sons and
7 their husbands. Chaos prevailed.
8 Q. Were they all taken to the corrections house
9 or somewhere else?
10 A. Those who were in Cajdras were taken to the
11 corrections house of Zenica, and the civilians who were
12 arrested by the MOS in town and in other Croat
13 settlements were taken to the MOS building where the
14 Mujahedin were staying. That was the music school of
16 Q. That is where they put up the women and
18 A. No.
19 Q. Who was there then?
20 A. The Mujahedin arrested civilians.
21 Q. Civilians?
22 A. Civilians. Men, as far as I know, I don't
23 know whether there were any women there, but they took
24 the men to MOS, and they beat them up very badly
25 there. They used wooden sticks, big ones, and rifles
1 and metal bars.
2 Q. What about the corrections house? Were
3 Croats treated better there or at the music house?
4 A. I found out later that they were treated far
5 more cruelly in the music school. When I was released
6 from the house of corrections --
7 Q. When were you released from the corrections
8 house? Please answer my questions. Do you know when
9 you were released from the corrections house?
10 A. Yes, I know. I was released on Tuesday.
11 That was the 20th of April, '93 around 1.30 p.m.
12 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, could the usher
13 please show this paper to the witness? One of the
14 copies goes to the interpreters too.
15 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D8/4.
16 MS. SUSAK:
17 Q. Mrs. Tolic, in front of you, you have a
18 decision on custody. Do you see the date? Do you see
19 the date when you were sent to custody?
20 A. Yes, yes. "Custody will start on the 18th of
21 April, 1993 at 1 --"
22 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. There are no
23 copies for the Prosecution, nor for the translators.
24 MS. SUSAK: I did give copies but they were
25 supposed to be grouped properly. Here you are. We
1 have two decisions, one on custody and the other one on
2 release from custody. You even have translations into
3 English of each and every one of these decisions.
4 Q. Did you receive a copy of that decision?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you given this decision when you were
7 brought into custody at the corrections house?
8 A. No, I got this decision, as well as the other
9 one, on release from custody, when I was leaving the
10 corrections house.
11 Q. Did they tell you how you could seek legal
12 assistance and how you could appeal this decision on
14 A. No.
15 Q. You did not receive any such information?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did they tell you why they were taking you
18 into custody?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did they know that you were working in the
21 medical corps?
22 A. Yes. Yes, they knew it.
23 Q. Would you now tell me how come they knew?
24 A. They knew because they took me into custody
25 in my white nurse's uniform.
1 Q. Did you always wear that white uniform?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When they brought you into custody, did you
4 introduce yourself, that you belonged to the medical
5 corps, to that formation?
6 A. Yes, yes, I introduced myself. When I was
7 brought into custody, I asked to speak to the warden of
8 this prison, and I was taken to him. It was an elderly
9 gentleman. I don't know his name. I asked him why I
10 was there, and he said, "I don't know." And then I
11 said, "Take me to someone who does know," and he gave a
12 rough response or, actually, he addressed the two
13 guards escorting me and said, "Take her away," and they
14 took me to a cell.
15 Q. How many days did you spend in prison?
16 A. Two days, from the 18th until the 20th.
17 Q. When you were released from custody, was
18 everybody else released from custody?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Why not? Do you know why not? How come you
21 were released before other people?
22 A. I don't know the reasons why. Many people
23 stayed. After me, they released other individuals.
24 This was some kind of an unofficial exchange. Some
25 kind of concessions were made.
1 I think, if I may continue, because there
2 were three other persons, three women in the cell,
3 young women, I found out from one of the detainees, as
4 I woke up for two mornings in the cell and I didn't
5 have any personal hygiene items, she offered me her's.
6 Her name was Fatima. She gave me a little bit of
7 toothpaste on my finger. She gave me her soap, and she
8 said that on Tuesday, this was Monday morning, she
9 said, "Tomorrow, the International Red Cross will come
10 probably tomorrow to tour, and then you will get
11 whatever you need."
12 I was released from the corrections house
13 earlier, so thank God I wasn't there for that visit by
14 the Red Cross.
15 Q. Let's complete the cycle of your movements.
16 When did you leave Zenica and where did you go to?
17 A. I left Zenica when I was released from the
18 house of corrections. I got in touch by telephone with
19 a former work colleague of mine from the Zenica
20 hospital who had left the Zenica hospital and went to
21 work in Busovaca because that's where she was born. I
22 called her on the telephone and asked her for help. I
23 told her that I had been detained and that I was very
24 afraid because I had heard from the other citizens that
25 when you are released from the house of corrections by
1 the BH army, then they usually -- or members of MOS,
2 the Mujahedin, would arrest these people and take them
3 to the music school, so I was very afraid.
4 I explained this to her, and she asked for
5 help in my name in Busovaca, and they called me then
6 and they told me that UNPROFOR will come and pick me
8 Q. Did you have any other way to leave Zenica?
9 A. Some people offered, they offered for me to
10 leave my apartment and for them to take me towards the
11 direction of Zepce, but by that time I had already
12 talked to my colleague, and they told me from the
13 Busovaca police to remain calm, to be patient for a day
14 or two, and that they will send UNPROFOR to collect me
15 and my family. This is what happened. I refused these
16 other offers to go towards Zepce, because many of my
17 other citizens in Zenica, when they tried to leave
18 Zenica, ugly things had happened. They would take them
19 in the direction of Zepce, Vares and some other exits.
20 I don't know exactly which ones. But they couldn't
21 leave. Some couldn't leave.
22 So they would come back. And then once they
23 came back, their house had already, or apartment, would
24 already be occupied. And such exchanges and departures
25 where people would pay, they would be sent to dangerous
1 places. I know, and I heard about the whole family,
2 Strbac, their case, where the whole family was supposed
3 to be taken out from Zenica to the crossing towards
4 Vitez, but they were sent to mine fields and they all
5 perished. So this was a family, husband, wife and
6 children. I think two children.
7 Q. So when you left the house of correction, you
8 spent some time in your apartment?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you in peace there?
11 A. No. There was no question of peace. It
12 could not have been like that. Arrests were already
13 being carried out and I heard from the other citizens
14 that people were being arrested, people were being
15 taken to the music school and to the house of
16 correction. Also, I had different kinds of
17 provocations. They called me on the phone all day.
18 They would threaten me, call me by insulting names. My
19 children couldn't go out any more. Before, when they
20 played in front of the building, the other children
21 would abuse them. They would hit them. So after that
22 they didn't go out any more.
23 There were constant threats over the
24 telephone, and I kept expecting for somebody to come to
25 my door and to take us away.
1 Q. How did they know where Croats lived in
3 A. Well, this wasn't difficult to know. They
4 had members of their units in the buildings, not
5 Muslims in the buildings. It would always be people
6 who wanted to -- not all, I have to say not all
7 citizens, not all Muslim citizens were the same, but
8 there were persons who would, during the night, place
9 crosses on the doors of non-Muslim citizens.
10 Q. So what did that cross represent?
11 A. Well, that Muslims were not living there.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. But non-Muslim populations were living there,
14 Croats, Serbs, Jews. There were a few Jews in the
16 Q. So now we have finished with your movements.
17 I am going back to the beginning, the 18th of April,
18 there was an attack. Who attacked whom? What you
19 know? Tell us what you know.
20 A. Well, the Muslim forces attacked the
21 headquarters of the HVO and the surrounding towns with
22 the majority Croat populations. The attack was from
23 the direction of Gradac. This is a place above Trokuce
24 and Podbrezje.
25 Q. Is this east or west when you look from
1 Zenica, or which side did the attack come from?
2 A. Well, I couldn't tell you whether it was east
3 or west. I just know that I was in Trokuce. The
4 attack came from the neighbouring town, Gradista. It's
5 a large Muslim settlement. They attacked the command
6 in Trokuca, the village of Podbrezje, Kozarci,
7 Stranjani. This was all linked up, up to Cajdras.
8 Q. What about Zmajevac and Janjac?
9 A. Yes, Zmajevac, this is a part of that.
10 Q. Were all of these places with majority Croat
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Before the attack of the 18th of April, do
14 you know what was going on with the HOS on the 17th of
15 April, or thereabouts, in '93?
16 A. When I was released from the house of
17 correction on the 20th of April, after that my friends
18 and acquaintances came to see me, to see how I was
19 doing, what had happened to me in the house of
20 correction, was I physically abused. And then I found
21 out from them that the day before the region of
22 Crkvice was disarmed where there was one building where
23 HOS was situated. Then Radakovo, Perin Han, Lukovo
24 Polje, they had a command also in Radakovo. Not a
25 command, a kind of command post. Yes, a command post.
1 So they disarmed them. These places are on
2 the right side of the Bosna River.
3 Then I also heard that they disarmed -- I am
4 talking about the 16th and the 17th. I don't know what
5 happened on what day, but the 16th and the 17th of
6 April I know they disarmed Raspotocje. This is already
7 on the left side of the River Bosna.
8 I also heard then, because this was already
9 the left side, Raspotocje, then we have Gornja Zenica.
10 Above Gornja Zenica we have Kuber. This is where I
11 heard -- so this is the 16th, the 17th, the 15th, when
12 that part or those parts of the town were being
14 Q. So we are not saying that Raspotocje was
15 disarmed on one side of the river. Were all the Croats
16 on the other side of the river disarmed also, in view
17 of all of these places that you had mentioned?
18 A. Yes, that's right. I repeat again that I
19 only heard this after the 20th, when I was released,
20 which means that there was disarming going on. Not
21 only in these places, they were also disarming the HOS
22 forces which were also in the centre of the town.
23 Q. As far as I understood you, you said they
24 were in the centre of the town and in Radakovo?
25 A. No, in Crkvice, the HOS forces.
1 Q. So were the HOS forces in Crkvice also
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. At the same time on the same same day?
5 A. That I don't know. I know the disarming went
6 on on the 16th and the 17th.
7 Q. You mentioned Kuber. How far is Kuber away
8 from Zenica?
9 A. Kuber, yes. Kuber is like a big hill. I
10 can't really call it a mountain above Zenica. I don't
11 know how far it is from Zenica. I was never up there.
12 Q. Approximately.
13 A. Well, I know about a Croatian settlement,
14 Gornja Zenica, where there was a majority Croat
15 population and that's maybe not more than 10 kilometres
16 away from town.
17 Then above that settlement, above Gornja
18 Zenica, Bilovode, Travnik, and so on, Kuber was
20 Q. Did you hear anything about Kuber? Who held
21 Kuber, Croats or Muslims?
22 A. I know that a part of our forces were in
23 Kuber earlier, but I heard that there was an attack up
24 there already on the 15th, and that from the 15th Kuber
25 was held by the Muslims.
1 Q. When you say the 15th, can you say the date,
2 then the month and the year?
3 A. I apologise, the 15th of April. So this was
4 already happening up there when they had already
5 arrested Zivko Totic.
6 Q. Was this hill of Kuber an important point
7 from a military standpoint?
8 A. Well, I heard this from my patients, from the
9 injured, that this was an important elevation, because
10 you could see the whole of Zenica from that hill.
11 Q. You said that the attack started on the 15th
12 of April, 1993. How long did it last? Did you hear
13 that maybe from the wounded or from somebody else?
14 A. I don't understand the question.
15 Q. How long did it last, this conflict or the
16 attack in Kuber? Was it on the 15th, the 16th, the
18 A. Well, I can say from what I heard. I heard
19 from the 15th there was some minor battles there, which
20 means that Muslim forces took Kuber on the 15th.
21 Whether there were any battles on the 16th or the 17th,
22 that I don't know. But I know that on the 18th the
23 Muslim forces starting going towards other places from
24 Kuber. And I know that from the events that happened
25 up there. They burnt houses up there.
1 There were a lot of injured people up there.
2 Four bodies were found in that house. One of those
3 bodies was the father of Stipo Kristo.
4 Q. Did you hear of anybody else being killed up
5 there, among the Croats?
6 A. Yes, there were, but -- I heard people were
7 killed, but I don't know their names.
8 Q. Okay. Let's move on. So we are finished now
9 with the 18th.
10 Since the attack on Zivko Totic, and then we
11 talked about the 15th in Kuber and then the 18th in
12 Zenica, how did the Muslims and the Muslim authorities
13 behave towards the Croats in Zenica? What period are
14 you talking about? Well, I will repeat that. We
15 talked about the 15th of April and then we finished
16 talking about the 18th of April. So what was the
17 behaviour of the Muslims and their authorities on the
18 18th and after that towards the Croats?
19 A. Well, I heard about that. The situation was
20 terrible. I left on the 18th. So I heard about this
21 while I was in Zenica, for a week maybe after I was
22 released from the house of correction. Arrests were
23 being made, houses were being searched. The MOS
24 forces, the Mujahedins, would be going around the
25 villages that were populated by Croats and they would
1 mistreat civilians and old people. They would enter
2 their houses. They would break and take down holy
3 pictures and crosses. They shot in churches. They
4 destroyed the cemetery. They destroyed about 76
5 tombstones. And I think they behaved very savagely.
6 After that, I can say something about the
7 events in Sircavica I heard about. They went up there,
8 they went into the church, they abused the priest and
9 the nuns. They tied them and they really mistreated
10 the priest.
11 Q. Did the Muslim authorities take care of
12 civilians? Was there any kind of decision reached on
13 the 18th or after that?
14 A. In that period they did not, but I heard
15 later -- I was already out of Zenica --
16 Q. Well, I was talking about what you had heard,
17 not what you had seen.
18 A. Okay. Well, I wasn't there any more, but
19 later, which means this could already have been May and
20 June of '93, they sent to the village of Podbrezje,
21 U.N. forces to protect the population, but before that,
22 before the U.N. forces arrived, this was the Turkish
23 battalion, there was the civilian police from the town
24 of Zenica which protected the Croat population that
25 remained in the village. But this wasn't enough,
1 because the MOS forces, the Mujahedins, had captured
2 the former headquarters of the HVO and they moved in
3 there. This became their headquarters. So every day,
4 at night and during the day, they would patrol the
5 village. They would make arrests, and they would beat
6 the population there, the men who happened to be in the
8 Q. So when you left the hospital, did you ever
9 return to the hospital? Did you visit the HVO soldiers
10 in the hospital?
11 A. This was in the period after I had left the
12 hospital and I was working at the Crisis Staff where
13 the Croat forces were being formed, where the Croat
14 people were grouping themselves. Wounded people were
15 coming from Zepce and Usora and they were fighting
16 against the aggressor together with the Muslims. So
17 all the wounded from those areas would come to the
18 Zenica hospital for treatment and, in view of the fact
19 that there was hunger already, then we would go once or
20 twice a week from the medical unit to visit the wounded
21 from other places. We would take them sandwiches or
22 something like that. Already at that time, and this
23 was the second half of '92 and the beginning of '93, I
24 would go and visit those wounded. And there was some
25 very unpleasant, uncomfortable situations.
1 There were already some wounded Mujahedins
2 there and they would see whom we were visiting and they
3 would show the sign of the cross and make this gesture
4 (indicating). They knew who we were and who these
5 wounded were. So they were showing us what they
6 thought about us.
7 Q. So they would show you the sign of the cross?
8 A. This is how they would show us the sign of
9 the cross, because many of them couldn't talk, and then
10 this is what they would show us (indicating).
11 Q. What does that mean?
12 A. That we should have our throats cut.
13 Q. Did the Mujahedins come to the hospital armed
14 or did somebody else come in armed?
15 A. As far as I know, when we were coming in to
16 see the wounded, no one was allowed to have weapons.
17 Their colleagues who went to see our wounded had to
18 leave their weapons at the reception desk, at the
19 entrance to the hospital. However, this rule did not
20 apply to the Mujahedins. They entered the hospital
22 Q. Who walked around the hospital or, rather,
23 who guarded the hospital?
24 A. There were always MOS members there and there
25 were also people who worked as guards earlier on at the
1 reception desk. However, MOS members were all around
2 the building and in the building too.
3 Q. Could you please tell us what they looked
4 like, these people who walked around the hospital and
5 who guarded it and who came in with weapons?
6 A. Most of them had long beards and some of them
7 had some kind of headdress and others didn't.
8 Q. What about their uniforms?
9 A. They did wear military uniform.
10 Q. The people from the BH army, did they see
12 A. Everybody saw that and everybody knew that.
13 Q. Now we are going to move onto another
14 subject. Do you know how and when Croats left Zenica?
15 Was Zenica abandoned by the Croats even before the 18th
16 of April, and did people move out after that too?
17 A. Yes, people did move out, but I am going to
18 tell you about it now. At the beginning of the war,
19 immediately after the Serb aggression against
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, many people who had somewhere to go
21 to did, because they were afraid of the war, and they
22 tried to get out of Zenica, both Muslims and Croats,
23 those who could get out. As I said, some people had
24 money. Other people had friends, acquaintances,
25 relatives. But this was not massive at that stage.
1 However, after the 15th of April, and after
2 the 18th of April --
3 Q. You are trying to say after Zivko Totic's
4 arrest and after the attack on the Croats of Zenica?
5 A. Yes. From those days and also after the
6 crime in Dusina, because that is when there was a
7 general lack of security, and people started seeking
8 ways and means of leaving Zenica. However, from the
9 15th hardly anyone could get out. The city was sealed
10 off after the 15th. There were no ways of getting
12 After the 18th, I already said, I already
13 said this, after the 18th assistance was offered by
14 Muslim citizens. They said they would take us to Zepce
15 or Vares, not only me but to other people from town.
16 Q. That is to say to area that was under HVO
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could one get out of Zenica and go to Vitez?
20 A. With great difficulty. I don't think so.
21 Q. Could you tell us how many Croats there were
22 in the 1990 census in Zenica?
23 A. The 1990 census showed that there were 17 per
24 cent of Croats, 11 per cent of Serbs, 2 or 3 per cent
25 were others, and the remaining population was Muslim.
1 Q. Mrs. Tolic, that's what you told me in
2 response to my previous question, but could you give me
3 the actual numbers and could you also tell me how many
4 Croats moved out of Zenica?
5 A. During the census of 1990, it was believed
6 that there were between 25.000 and 28.000 Croats in
8 Q. What about today, how many remain until the
9 present day?
10 A. Well, no one knows the exact number, but
11 people say there's not more than 5.000 or 6.000 left.
12 And most of them left the town of Zenica after the
13 cease-fire, after 1994, because from 1993, from the
14 18th of April until 1994, until the cease-fire was
15 signed, Zenica was a big concentration camp. No one
16 was allowed to leave Zenica. Or they could leave but
17 with great difficulty or they would get killed as they
18 were trying to leave it. So most people left Zenica in
19 1994, after the Dayton Accords were signed.
20 Q. And after the Dayton Accords were signed, why
21 did so many Croats leave Zenica? Do you have any
22 arguments for this or do you know why this was the
24 A. I can tell you what I think. 1993 was a
25 terrible year in Zenica. It was a year of famine. It
1 was a year of persecution of Croats in Zenica. I can
2 say that after 1994, after the cease-fire agreement was
3 signed, it was not only the Croats who were leaving
4 Zenica. Muslims were leaving it too, because a large
5 number of refugees arrived in Zenica.
6 Q. In your opinion, what are the other reasons
7 why Croats left Zenica?
8 A. Well, because they were the minority people.
9 The Muslims showed, by their attack and their
10 behaviour, that we could not live and work there
11 freely. I think that those are the most important
13 Q. In this period, and especially on the 18th
14 and after that, and also before that, were there any
15 killings of Croats in Zenica, and also around Zenica?
16 A. As regards the events that took place before
17 Dusina and before Busovaca and before the 18th of
18 April, I do not know. I do not know whether there were
19 any killings. But as regards the killings that took
20 place during the attack on the 18th of April, I can say
21 what I know.
22 Q. Could you give us a few cases.
23 A. The first person killed was Vlado Lovrenovic,
24 as I said already. And he was brought to me in the
25 early morning hours. And also in the village of
1 Kozarci, two old men were killed. Those are my
2 mother's uncles. One was 90 years old and the other
3 one was 92 years old. One of them was blind and
4 bedridden and the other one was very ill. Ivan Vidovic
5 Ivan and Antan Vidovic were their names.
6 Also in this village of Kozarci a
7 three-year-old child was killed and the mother was
8 gravely wounded.
9 Q. Whose child was this?
10 A. This was the child of Zeljko and Ivanka
12 Q. They are Croats, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And --
15 A. Further on in the village of Zalje, which is
16 near Zmajevac, they killed Stipo Trogrlic. Stipo
17 Trogrlic. In this same village they also killed a
18 child of Ana and Zejnil Pranjic. That child was one of
19 two twins.
20 Q. I don't know if you refer to Gornja Zenica.
21 A. I heard that they found four burned corpses
22 in Gornja Zenica, and one of them was the body of Stipo
23 Kristo's father.
24 Q. What about all of these things, were they
25 supposed to intimidate the Croats?
1 A. By that time ...
2 Q. Did this cause fear amongst the Croats?
3 A. Well, these murders happened during the
4 attack on the 18th.
5 Q. I shall repeat my question. Did this affect
6 the feelings of Croats, and also did this make them
7 move out of Zenica?
8 A. Indeed so. There was an attack. They killed
9 people. They killed our relatives, our neighbours.
10 Q. Were they in fear of their own lives?
11 A. Yes, of course.
12 Q. Now that we mentioned the persons who were
13 killed, were there any people who were missing?
14 A. Yes, yes, I heard about this. Zdeno Dujic
15 was missing. He is the husband of an acquaintance of
16 mine. He worked in the civilian police force in the
17 town of Zenica. They came into his home, and they told
18 him that he was supposed to go on assignment. He was
19 taken away, and he was never found again. No one knows
20 whether he is dead or alive.
21 Also, a young boy, 17 or 18 years old, was
22 also missing. He's also from my village, the village
23 of Podbrezje. His name was Vjekoslav Pandza. Until
24 this day, no one knows a thing about him.
25 I know of another case too related to the
1 hospital in Zenica where Dr. Sladojevic worked. He was
2 head of the eye department. In the morning at work,
3 they would have staff meetings of the doctors, and he
4 protested, and he said, "Where did the people who were
5 admitted the previous day disappear to?" So he would
6 come into work one day, and the next day, these people
7 would be missing. Soon after that, they came to see
8 him at his home, they took him away, and nothing is
9 known about him until this very day, and this was the
10 case of Dr. Sladojevic.
11 Q. What did he do at the hospital?
12 A. He was an eye doctor, a specialist, and he
13 was also head of the department, the eye department.
14 Q. You also mentioned Anto Dujic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who is that person? Is he also missing?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where did he work?
19 A. He worked in the civilian police.
20 Q. In the civilian police. How did he
21 disappear, now that you mentioned it?
22 A. As far as I heard from his wife, they came to
23 his home, they took him away, and nothing is known
24 until the present day as to what happened to him.
25 Q. I think that I omitted a question. How many
1 Croats live in Zenica now, to the best of your
3 JUDGE MAY: She gave the answer to that,
4 5.000 to 6.000.
5 MR. SUSAK: All right. I apologise. I
6 simply forgot that right now.
7 Q. Now that we're talking about Zenica, where
8 were the Mujahedin staying?
9 A. The Mujahedin were staying somewhere near the
10 centre of town, the music school. They also were
11 staying in a far away village.
12 Q. Yes. You mentioned the music school, but in
13 addition to the music school, were they located
14 anywhere else?
15 A. In a far away village out of town. The
16 village was called Arnauti.
17 Q. How many Mujahedin were in Zenica, to the
18 best of your knowledge?
19 A. That, I do not know.
20 Q. Could you give us an estimate?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you see them often in town?
23 A. Yes, yes, we would see them everywhere.
24 Q. What about the villages? What about the
25 villages around Zenica?
1 A. I can only talk about my own village where I
2 was, Podbrezje. In Podbrezje, there was a Croat
3 population, and in Tetovo, there was a Muslim
4 population too, and they were in that part too because
5 that is where they came to say in the empty houses that
6 belonged to Serbs or -- well, that's where they lived.
7 Q. How did the Croats take all of this before
8 the 18th and after the 18th? Now we have come to the
9 area of humanitarian aid.
10 A. In Zenica, there were quite a few
11 humanitarian organisations. The Muslims, to the best
12 of my knowledge, had two such organisations, Merhamet
13 and Agasa. The Serbs had one called Dobrotvor, and if
14 the Croatian church, there was Caritas, the
15 International Red Cross. Those were the humanitarian
16 organisations that I'm aware of, and I also know that
17 Caritas distributed aid to all the citizens of Zenica,
18 whoever came to see them, and I'm not familiar with
19 what others did.
20 Q. Did Croats receive humanitarian aid from
22 A. No.
23 Q. Or from Agasa, as you said? That is another
24 Muslim humanitarian organisation.
25 A. I am not aware of that.
1 Q. Before the 18th, before the attack on places
2 that had predominantly Croat populations and
3 afterwards, you said that at one point in time Zenica
4 was sealed off. What period does this blockade refer
6 A. The blockade of the town of Zenica refers to
7 the following period -- actually, it started on the
8 15th of April. After the 18th of April, it was
9 intensified, so it was difficult to leave town or to
10 enter town.
11 Q. How could ordinary civilians leave town?
12 A. Well, it was difficult to get out. Ordinary
13 civilians could not leave Zenica at all, unless they
14 had some Muslim friends who would bring them to a
15 point, to a checkpoint, where they would let them pass
16 through, but that was not a sure way of doing it.
17 Q. We just have one more question. You
18 mentioned the Territorial Defence. Where was the
19 Territorial Defence located and, after that, the army
20 of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Zenica?
21 A. The Territorial Defence was at the building
22 at Bilmiste. This was the former Yugoslav People's
23 Army barracks.
24 Q. Did the authorities in Zenica carry out
1 A. Yes, they did carry out mobilisation and at
2 work places at that. The employees of Zenica
3 steelworks got their war assignments, their military
4 assignments, at work, that is to say, people went to
5 work, and they would get their war assignments, and
6 they were taken away from work to the barracks at
8 Q. How long would they stay there?
9 A. Well, it depends. It depends on these
10 military actions. They would spend at least a week
11 there, and then they would go home for awhile, and then
12 they would go back and spend another week, something
13 like that.
14 Q. Was there any punishment in case someone did
15 not respond to call-ups, to mobilisation?
16 A. I think that, at that time, there was not a
17 single person who would not have responded. I'm not
18 aware of this, but most people joined the Territorial
20 Q. Who went to the Territorial Defence? You
21 said it was the employed persons who went.
22 A. Everyone went, almost everyone, almost all
23 citizens of Zenica, men.
24 Q. Are you trying to say military-aged men?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, have I no further
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Before we
4 adjourn, could I know if there will be any
5 cross-examination by other Defence counsel?
6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the witnesses
7 will be questioned by Ranko Radovic and Jadranka
8 Slokovic-Glumac. Thank you.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: We will adjourn now until
10 tomorrow at 1.30. Tomorrow we will be sitting -- yes,
11 Counsel Susak?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Counsel
13 Susak, please.
14 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I suggest that two
15 documents be admitted into evidence, that is to say,
16 the decision on custody and the decision on release
17 from custody for this particular witness.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: We only received one
19 decision, the one for the release. The other one was
20 never handed to us.
21 MR. SUSAK: I have both.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: But we don't have it. D8/4 is the
23 only one we have.
24 MR. SUSAK: Yes, but I have extra copies, and
25 I shall submit this other document to you forthwith.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but then we must give
2 time to the Prosecution to consider those and see
3 whether they have any objections. So you can hand in
4 now this document, and tomorrow we will decide whether
5 or not both documents are admitted into evidence.
6 As I say, tomorrow, we will be sitting from
7 1.30 until 6.00 p.m.
8 The hearing is adjourned.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
10 1.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
11 the 28th day of January, 1999 at
12 1.30 p.m.