Thursday, 28th January, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 1.32 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your
6 Honours. Case number IT-95-16-T. The Prosector versus
7 Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic,
8 Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. We may
10 continue. Mr. Radovic. Counsel Radovic.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 WITNESS: JADRANKA TOLIC (Resumed)
13 Examined by Mr. Radovic:
14 Q. Good day. I don't have too many questions
15 for you. Please tell me, in Zenica, what was the
16 situation regarding receiving of information? Who did
17 you get the information from about the events in Zenica
18 in the region of Central Bosnia?
19 A. I got a lot of of information from the people
20 who were wounded, who were in the hospital in Cajdras,
21 also from the villagers in my village who I lived with.
22 Q. What about the media?
23 A. The media, yes, through newspapers,
25 Q. Did you buy newspapers at that time?
1 A. Yes, of course.
2 Q. Which ones?
3 A. Well, which ones did we have? I can't recall
4 right now.
5 Q. Yes. But you know that already at that
6 time --
7 A. Just one moment. We had the Croatian press,
8 Obitelj, something like that. Mr. Hammer was in
10 Q. But this was not a newspaper that dealt with
11 political issues. Did you have any kind of daily
12 newspaper that reported about politics?
13 A. I don't recall.
14 Q. Did you read any newspapers at the time?
15 A. Mostly I got information from what people
16 told me.
17 Q. So according to what people told you, from
18 what you heard, did you hear what was happening in the
19 region of Vitez from the 16th of April onwards?
20 A. From the 16th of April, well, I didn't read
21 about anything in the paper.
22 Q. So you didn't really hear anything. Did you
23 hear anything from your patients, perhaps?
24 A. From my patients? You mean from the 16th of
25 of April?
1 Q. Yes, the events in Vitez from April 16th.
2 Was the 16th of April significant to you in Zenica for
3 any reason?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you watch television?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you have your own TV set at home?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Which TV stations could you receive at that
11 A. Only the ones that were in Zenica.
12 Q. So this was Zetel?
13 A. Yes, Zetel. And TVBH. This is Sarajevo
15 Q. So did you watch the news on those TV
16 stations every day?
17 A. No, not every day.
18 Q. Did you see in any news programme, any TV
19 programme? I assume that the news were on at 7.30
20 every evening just like they were in all the other
21 areas of the former Yugoslavia?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So was there anything that related to Vitez?
24 A. No, not about Vitez, but I remember now that
25 on TV in Zenica the -- they showed on Zenica TV the
1 foundation, the establishment of something in Zenica.
2 And that is the first time I heard about Mr. Mario
4 Q. Did you see any refugees from Vitez on
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you see, maybe, any people who were
8 recorded in the hospital in Zenica who were saying what
9 they experienced in a village near Zenica called
10 Ahmici, near Vitez called Ahmici?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You said that in the Croatian areas homes
13 were usually torched after the Croats were expelled.
14 Did I understand you right?
15 A. Yes. The houses were torched after the
16 Croats were expelled, but this happened on the 18th of
18 Q. Okay. So now we see that you don't know
19 anything about the 16th. So now we're going to talk
20 about the conduct of Muslim forces after they captured
21 Croatian villages. What happened with the Croatian
22 churches after the Muslims captured a Croatian village?
23 A. Well, they would shoot at the churches. The
24 church in Cajdras is full of bullet holes. The priest
25 and two nuns were abused in Cakrcici.
1 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any
4 cross-examination by other counsel?
5 Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac. Yes
6 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. Good day,
8 Mrs. Tolic. You spoke about the situation in Zenica on
9 the 15th of April, '93, after the murder of the escort
10 and the capture of Zivko Totic. You also said there
11 were problems in moving through the town.
12 A. Yes. I know this very well because that
13 morning I was going to work, to the hospital in
14 Cajdras. This is on the other side of the town from
15 where I was living. I was living in Podbrezje. I went
16 to work on foot and I could hear shooting earlier. I
17 saw a car and I saw my late cousin there. I couldn't
18 go further from that point. They turned me back. And
19 then I reported to the headquarters of the HVO. They
20 were consulting by phone with Cajdras, and they said,
21 because my work colleagues already knew that it was
22 difficult to move around the town, so they said that
23 they would send an ambulance to get me, because I had
24 to go there, get some medical equipment and come back
25 to the headquarters, because I lived in Podbrezje, the
1 command is 500 to 800 metres away from my house, less
2 than a kilometre. I don't exactly know. Because they
3 wanted -- because of the events that were taking place
4 there, they wanted someone, a medical officer, to be in
5 the command. And because I lived there, they asked me
6 to come.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the
9 Q. So you got there with an ambulance?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You said checkpoints were placed around the
13 A. Yes. I noticed this when I was leaving
14 Podbrezje, when I was going from Trokuce to Cajdras
15 there were police patrols and they had been increased
16 compared to the previous days.
17 Q. The people who were at those checkpoints,
18 were these members of the BiH Army or was this the
20 A. It was the civilian police in dark uniforms,
21 and there were also camouflage uniforms with black
22 vests on top.
23 Q. Do you remember whether they had --
24 A. They were completely armed. I don't know
25 what you mean if they were completely armed. I know
1 that they had pistols, they had batons in their hands.
2 I'm not sure whether they had any guns. I didn't see
3 that. I'm not sure.
4 Q. Did you notice at the entrance and exits to
5 Zenica if there were any checkpoints there, any control
7 A. Well, I went to Cajdras and I must have
8 encountered from the Travnik Street to Cajdras two of
9 them. This was not usual. There were some in the
10 centre of the city, close to the faculty of metallurgy
11 in Zenica.
12 Q. You also said in your testimony that in
13 January of '93 you noticed men, people, from Busovaca,
14 Muslims from Busovaca in Zenica, that they came by bus,
15 if I understood you properly.
16 A. No not by bus. Because my apartment was at
17 the entrance to Zenica, it was four high-rise houses,
18 so I lived in the first one of those buildings, close
19 to the bridge, but I wasn't there all the time. I
20 spent some time in my house in Podbrezje. But I would
21 come and visit my apartment sometimes. So going from
22 the apartment towards Podbrezje, this was the road
23 going just below the house of corrections, and there's
24 an army, a hold there. So I could see a truck standing
25 by the road. I could also see an orange mini-van, but
1 civilians were coming out of this truck, which was
2 covered with tarpaulin. Women and children were coming
3 out of it.
4 Q. Do you recall whether this was before the
5 conflict in Busovaca or after? You said that you were
6 surprised when you saw them; is that right?
7 A. Yes, I was surprised, because I thought these
8 were refugees from somewhere, and I stopped there
9 because I always felt sorry for people who came from
10 Gorazde, Potkozarje or wherever they would arrive from
11 to Zenica. But there were a lot of refugees at that
12 time. The department store, big buildings, were
13 already occupied by refugees, so when I saw these women
14 and children, I was -- I felt sorry for them and I
15 asked them. So they said they were from Busovaca. And
16 I was surprised, because I didn't know that anything
17 was happening there.
18 Q. All right. Also in your statement you said
19 that you had heard that the HVO was being disarmed.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now we are talking about the 16th and the
22 17th of April of '93?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who did you hear this from and how was this
25 carried out?
1 A. I heard this after the 20th. On the 20th I
2 left the house of correction of Zenica. I was at
3 home. My friends were visiting me, who were living
4 nearby. And then I heard this from them, because my
5 brother-in-law, my husband's brother, was living close
6 by. He wasn't a member of the HVO. He was a civilian
7 in the house of correction. His wife, my
8 sister-in-law, came as soon as I was released. And she
9 heard, because she lives in Radakovo.
10 I was also visited by other friends. She
11 told me that on the 16th and the 17th they had already
12 been disarmed there, on the right side of the bank of
13 the River Bosna in the region of Cekrcici. That's
14 where HOS was, but not all Croat members of HOS, but of
15 the HVO. So I think in Drada Kovor, somewhere there,
16 they had a kind of branch, the head coordinators in all
17 regions. Because Croats were all over the place. So I
18 heard that already on the 16th or the 17th they had
19 been disarmed there, on the 17th, in the afternoon,
20 that they had been surrounded -- that they had
21 surrounded the HOS headquarters that was in the centre
22 of the town, and I heard that some negotiations were
23 being carried out for the members of the HOS to be
25 Q. So that's when the weapons were taken away
1 from them?
2 A. Yes. Some of them were also detained in the
3 house of correction because when I arrived in my cell,
4 there were already two women there who were members of
5 HOS, they were Muslims, and I was in the cell together
6 with them.
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Okay. Thank you very
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel
10 Slokovic-Glumac. I assume there is no other Defence
11 counsel wishing to cross-examine this witness, so we
12 move on to the Prosecution. Mr. Terrier?
13 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour. I have
14 only a few questions to put to the witness. I will be
15 as concise as I can be.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
17 Q. Good morning, Madam. My name is
18 Franck Terrier, I am a member of the Prosecution team,
19 and it is my duty to put a number of questions to you.
20 I hope it will be brief.
21 Do you know the accused?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You don't know any of them?
24 A. None of them.
25 Q. According to a document that was given to us
1 by the Defence, you actually reside in Mostar?
2 A. Now I live in Mostar.
3 Q. Are you a nurse today as you were at the time
4 of the events?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In 1992 and 1993, were you a member of the
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you in any other way engaged in serving
10 the Croatian cause at the time?
11 A. '92 and '93; is that what you're asking me?
12 Q. Exactly.
13 A. Yes. Yes. When I left my job in the
14 hospital, I moved to work in the crisis staff which was
15 located in the Sestra Dietrich school. That's where
16 the medical unit was being organised. This was in June
18 Q. There is one thing I would like to
19 understand. This duty you have just described to us,
20 the aim of which was to help the injured, the ones who
21 needed help, was also a political activity, wasn't it,
22 because you were also defending the aim, that was the
23 aim of the HVO?
24 A. Well, I will say right away that I had
25 nothing to do with politics.
1 Q. Did you know Commander Totic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you please be a little more specific
4 about the unit he was commander of?
5 A. The military unit that he commanded in
6 Zenica, I can only say about that that when he arrived,
7 we expected a lot of him because we thought he was an
8 expert, more expert than his predecessors at the crisis
9 staff, that was Mr. Covic, his predecessor. I think he
10 was very reliable. He was an honest man.
11 Q. There is something else I would like to
12 know. What was the composition of the unit he
13 commanded? How many men constituted that unit, how was
14 it armed, what kind of weapons did it use?
15 A. I repeat again, I worked at the Sestre
16 Dietrich school, and then when the commander came,
17 Mr. Zivko Totic, we were transferred, and we worked in
18 Cajdras, which means that I was not close to the
19 headquarters or -- I can talk about the medical staff,
20 how many were in our brigade, and it's possible that it
21 numbered about 1.500 people. This is an approximate
23 Q. One thousand five hundred people. In Zenica,
24 that is; is that what you mean? One thousand five
25 hundred people in that unit?
1 A. When he arrived at that time, there were no
2 more than 1.500 people or so in the beginning. Then
3 later, we had more Croats who joined us, the ones who
4 were leaving the B and H army, and then at the end,
5 just before the conflict around the 15th, some Croats
6 from HOS also joined.
7 Q. At the beginning of April 1993, what was this
8 brigade made of; do you know? I'm not sure you know,
9 but if you do know, could you be a little bit more
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Thank you. This was the Jure Francetic
13 Brigade, wasn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us why it was called that?
16 A. Jure Francetic is an historical figure. He
17 is famous by what he did, and we took him to be the
18 protector of our brigade. We took his name because
19 he's an historical person for the Croatian people.
20 Q. Historical figure from when, approximately;
21 could you tell us that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I see. You talked about the refugees who
24 came to Zenica; there were many of them coming to that
25 city. Do you have an idea of how many refugees came to
1 Zenica to seek refuge?
2 A. I don't know the exact number, but I heard on
3 the radio one evening that they were expecting refugees
4 to come from all parts of Bosnia that were under the
5 occupation of the aggressor, and that they were
6 expecting about 50.000 refugees to arrive in the town
7 of Zenica, but I don't know at that time exactly how
8 many refugees there were.
9 Q. If I'm not mistaken -- if I am mistaken,
10 please help me -- but if I'm not mistaken, you said
11 that you had talked with some of the refugees in
12 Zenica, and you also told us that some of these
13 refugees had explained what their situation was, what
14 position they were in. What else could you tell us
15 about that?
16 A. I didn't talk much. The refugees that I
17 would meet -- I don't know which period you are
18 referring to -- well, the people from Busovaca, before
19 the conflict broke out in Busovaca, I didn't talk to
20 them really, I only asked them where they were from,
21 but I talked with refugees before that who would come
22 from Potkozarje who would ask for aid in food or
23 clothing. That's as much as I would talk with them.
24 Q. In Zenica, did you ever meet Muslim refugees
25 who told you they had been expelled from Busovaca?
1 A. Muslim refugees? Yes. They were not
2 expelled, no. I did not say that. This is what I
3 said, that I saw women and children who were coming out
4 of a truck that was covered with tarpaulin, and I asked
5 them, "Where are you from?" And they said, "From
6 Busovaca." I thought that they were refugees perhaps
7 from Gorazde, Potkozarje, or wherever they were coming
8 from at the time. That's what I thought. I thought
9 that they were refugees. But I saw women and
10 children. I just thought ...
11 Q. But the people you met were Muslim women and
12 children, and you were told they were coming from
13 Busovaca; isn't that right?
14 A. Yes, women and children who were coming from
16 Q. Without using the word "expelled" then, have
17 you ever learned for what reason these people who were
18 living in Busovaca had become refugees?
19 A. I said that I was surprised when I had heard
20 that they were from Busovaca because I didn't know the
21 reason why they were here. The conflict, meaning the
22 attack on Busovaca, came later, and I don't know how I
23 can -- how free I can be to say, but these civilians
24 were their people. These people had moved their
25 families. Perhaps they had known that there would be
1 an attack on Busovaca so that perhaps they moved their
2 families away.
3 Q. Could you be a little more specific maybe?
4 According to you, who took that decision, to transfer
5 some families to Zenica?
6 A. This is just an assumption that I am making
7 because the conflict broke out later, the BH army
8 attacked the region of Busovaca, so it's an assumption
9 that I am making that women and children were taken out
10 of Busovaca before the attack.
11 Q. If I understand you well, you assumed or you
12 are assuming that the Muslims themselves decided to
13 make refugees out of the members of their family in
14 order to protect them; they decided to send them away?
15 A. I think that members of the BH army or the
16 husbands of those families moved their women and
17 children out to a safe area, to Zenica, because they
18 had known that they will attack Busovaca.
19 Q. So I did understand you well. You also told
20 us about the persecution of which Croatian people in
21 Zenica were victims at the end of 1992 and at the
22 beginning of 1993. I listened carefully to what you
23 were saying yesterday, but I would like to know if you
24 received any information about what happened between
25 January 20th and January 27th in Merdani, in Kacuni, in
1 Strane and in Ocenici?
2 A. On the 25th and on the 26th --
3 Q. Between the 20th and the 27th of January.
4 A. January?
5 Q. Yes, January of 1993.
6 A. Tell me the exact area, please.
7 Q. In Merdani, in Kacuni, in Strane, in Ocenici?
8 A. No. No, I did not know what was going on
10 Q. So you never heard anybody say that at that
11 time in these villages the Muslim civilians were
12 arrested en masse and sent to Kaonik prison?
13 A. I did not know that. I only new about it a
14 bit later, perhaps in February, that the BH army, on
15 the 26th, attacked Busovaca.
16 Q. Do you know what life was like for Muslim
17 civilians living in Busovaca at the time?
18 A. I don't know. I don't know what situation
19 they lived in because I lived in Zenica.
20 Q. You never heard journalists say, for example,
21 or a TV channel say, or a radio broadcast say, or a
22 soldier say, you never heard anybody say anything about
23 what life was like for Muslim civilians in Busovaca,
24 you never heard anybody say anything about whether they
25 were free to move around, for example, were they able
1 to exercise their job freely? Do you know if they were
2 protected physically from any threat?
3 A. I shall say now that in January 1992 I worked
4 in the hospital, I was doing my own job, and I realised
5 that something was going on in Busovaca. Sadzida
6 Kubat, my engineer, told me this. She kept provoking
7 me all the time, by the way. She was the person who
8 kept asking me to come into her office, and I heard
9 about it from her. Obviously, she was very
10 well-informed, and I heard from her that people did not
11 have freedom of movement or whatever, but I didn't know
12 that. I heard about it from her, and I had the feeling
13 that she was provoking me a great deal because I was a
14 Croat and she had already heard something about that.
15 I didn't hear about it from anyone else but from her.
16 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, at this stage, I
17 would like to, if you allow me to do so, I would like
18 to refer the witness to a report that was written by
19 Mr. McLeod, who was an investigator for the ECMM.
20 Mr. McLeod, on May 9th, 1993, met the imam of
21 Busovaca. This investigator, who worked for the ECMM,
22 later on wrote a report dated May 17th, 1993. In that
23 report, he gives detailed information about all the
24 meetings he had, and he gives a lot of details about
25 everything that went on in Vitez and Busovaca, among
1 other towns, in 1993. At this stage, I would like to
2 refer to one of these reports. I think it is a
3 reasonable thing for me to ask that some of these
4 reports be admitted in evidence. One copy of these
5 reports has been handed over to the Defence counsel, of
6 course, but I would like to use part of one of these
7 reports as part of my cross-examination.
8 Would you allow me to refer to these
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, when did you
11 give these documents to the Defence counsel?
12 MR. TERRIER: At the beginning of the
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Five minutes before it began,
15 I think. This is what Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac is saying.
16 Did you give them all of these reports?
17 MR. TERRIER: Yes, all of these reports. But
18 I am only going to use a page and a half of a
19 particular report. Can I do so?
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Our ruling is a majority
21 ruling, and the Presiding Judge dissenting. We have
22 decided that you are not entitled to produce in court
23 this document because this might jeopardise the rights
24 of the Defence since you have not provided this report
25 in advance to the Defence, at least giving them the
1 opportunity to closely examine that document. However,
2 you might call Mr. McLeod, he is the author of this
3 report, in rebuttal. If you feel that this is
4 important evidence, an important piece of evidence, you
5 could call him as a rebuttal witness.
6 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour. I will
7 then go on to another series of questions.
8 Q. Let's go on to what happened on April 15th,
9 1993, Madam. On that particular day, Commander Zivko
10 Totic was abducted, and you also told us that you had
11 seen the place where this abduction had taken place on
12 that very morning, on the morning of the 15th; is that
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness,
16 A. On the 15th of April in the morning, I was at
17 the very site.
18 Q. Do you know if an inquiry was launched, the
19 aim of which was to know who had abducted Commander
20 Totic, in order to know in what circumstances it had
21 taken place and, of course, this inquiry also aimed to
22 know why the five people who escorted Commander Totic
23 had been killed?
24 A. I cannot know whether an investigation took
25 place or not. I can only know what I saw for myself as
1 I passed there. The crime investigation service of the
2 civilian police force of Zenica was there, and no one
3 was allowed to pass that way, and I can only tell you
4 what I saw there. I don't know what happened
5 afterwards, but when I went back to headquarters and
6 during the following three days, 15th, 16th, and 17th,
7 we only received information at headquarters that they
8 are negotiating for the unconditional release of Zivko
10 Q. So you went to the HVO headquarters in Zenica
11 and you spent most of the day of the 15th, of the 16th
12 and of the 17th of April there; is that right?
13 A. Yes. Yes. Most of the 15th I spent in
14 Cajdras. I was driving around in an ambulance, 16th
15 and the 17th, yes, and the morning of the 18th.
16 Q. Could you please tell us how the HVO reacted
17 on April the 15th, on April 16th, and on the following
18 dates? What was the HVO's reaction to Commander
19 Totic's abduction?
20 A. Chaos prevailed at headquarters. No one
21 talked about anything else. His youngest brother was
22 there. He kept crying and he was walking about
23 nervously. We tried to calm him down. We tried to
24 pacify him, but everybody else was upset too. That was
25 the only thing that people were talking about. They
1 were asking why this happened, how it happened. They
2 were asking for his release. It was chaos. Chaos
3 prevailed. People could not be peaceful. They could
4 not talk calmly and normally. They were just moving
5 around. It was like an ant hill. Chaos prevailed.
6 Q. Were any measures taken by the HVO in Zenica
7 in order to find out what had happened, how it had
8 happened, to find out where Commander Totic had been
9 taken to? Were any measures taken in order to free him
10 or to find him?
11 A. I can only say what I heard at headquarters
12 from the brother of Zivko Totic. He asked for the
13 unconditional release of his brother. He kept asking,
14 "What have you done? When is my brother going to
15 arrive?" And they said that they were on the telephone
16 and that they would attend some kind of conference or
17 whatever. But I don't know whether they actually did
18 go or whether they did actually talk about it.
19 Q. On April 15th, did you look at any television
21 A. No.
22 Q. During that same day, on the 15th of April,
23 1993, you were in the HVO's headquarters in Zenica.
24 Being there, did you gather any information on what the
25 intentions of the BiH Army were?
1 A. No. No. I did not watch television. I was
2 busy. I was in a particular room at headquarters all
3 the time, and I tried to pacify the people who were
4 there. That was my task there. I gave some people
5 tranquillisers, other people I gave water and lemon,
6 it's not important, but I did not watch television.
7 Those three days I absolutely did not watch television.
8 Q. You took care of people who were very tired.
9 They were not physically injured, they were in a
10 nervous state, weren't they?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember at all what happened during
13 the night of the 15th to the 16th of April, 1993?
14 A. 15th to the 16th, I remember nothing. I
15 think that we were wondering about when the funeral of
16 the people who were killed would take place. I cannot
17 recall whether the funeral of my cousin and the other
18 persons who were killed was on the 16th or the 17th. I
19 cannot give an exact answer to that. I think it was
20 the 17th. I think the funeral was on the 17th, but I
21 really don't know anymore.
22 On the evening of the 15th, I left
23 headquarters, I went home to freshen up, and I came
24 back already at 7.30 in the evening. I came back to
1 Q. According to what you remember, was April
2 16th similar to April 15th, in the sense that chaos
3 reigned everywhere?
4 A. That I do not know. I didn't go anywhere. I
5 spent all the time at headquarters and my home was
6 nearby. I would go home, freshen up a bit, and I would
7 go back. I did not move around town. From the 15th
8 onwards I did not go from there to the town of Zenica.
9 Q. I understand, but at headquarters what was
10 the atmosphere like? Was the atmosphere a bit calmer
11 or was it still a very electrical atmosphere?
12 A. The same. Chaos prevailed. Nothing changed
13 until the 18th. This chaos continued. Very few people
14 were coming in. Most of us who were there at
15 headquarters simply stayed there. So I didn't really
16 hear anything new. Already from the 15th onwards
17 movement was made impossible.
18 Q. Could the witness be shown Prosecution
19 Exhibit 334. Exhibit number 334.
20 A. I can hardly see it.
21 Q. Are you able to read the name of the person
22 who signed this document, Madam?
23 A. Operative on duty of the Jure Francetic
24 Brigade, Branislav Bosnijak.
25 Q. Did you know that man?
1 A. I met that person only when I fled from
2 Zenica to Busovaca through this humanitarian
3 organisation. I did not know him before that.
4 Q. Would you agree with me to say that this
5 report was written by the officer on duty of the Jure
6 Francetic Brigade on April 16th, 1993 at 6.00 in the
7 morning? Would you agree with me to say that this
8 report indicates that the man who signed it was quite
9 happy with the situation which prevailed and, above
10 all, a very calm man? There is no sign of nervousness,
11 which doesn't lead us to think that, as you said, chaos
12 prevailed at the time.
13 A. I described the situation on the date of the
14 15th, and I said that after that I did not move towards
15 town, but other men were not coming to headquarters, so
16 I thought that the situation was the same as it was on
17 the 15th.
18 Since you are aware of this, I should like to
19 mention that from '92, perhaps until the end of the
20 war, there was a curfew in Zenica, and what it says
21 here is that unarmed civilians could pass and we knew
22 at what time that was. But from the 15th onwards I did
23 not move from that place. And then people from other
24 parts of Zenica were not coming to headquarters, that
25 is to say from Cajdras, Radakovo, Crkvica. The people
1 who were coming into headquarters until then, or who
2 had work to do at headquarters, that is to say people
3 who were staying there from the 15th onwards,
4 practically spent all their time at headquarters.
5 Q. I understand, but allow me to put the
6 question to you again. When you read this report,
7 don't you agree that contrary to what you said, on
8 April 16th, 1993 at 6 a.m. in Zenica the HVO was fully
9 in control of what was happening, it was fully
10 effective, and the officer on duty, in spite of what
11 had happened on April 15th, was very happy with the
12 situation which prevailed, was quite confident with
13 what was happening?
14 A. I think that this document shows that there
15 was no excessive behaviour any more, since these
16 murders had already been committed, as well as the
17 abduction. There weren't any attacks or abductions or
18 any mistreatments as of the 15th. I think that that is
19 what this pertains to. We did not have people visiting
20 headquarters or that part of town from the BiH Army or
21 the police.
22 Q. A moment ago, while answering a question put
23 to you by Mr. Radovic, in relation to the events which
24 took place in Ahmici, you said, if I am not mistaken,
25 that you had never heard anything about these events at
1 the time, that is. Am I right?
2 A. Could you please clarify your question.
3 Q. I'll put the question to you again, Madam.
4 In April, 1993, were you at all informed about what had
5 happened on April 16th, 1993 in Ahmici?
6 A. In April, on the 16th, '93, no. I did not
7 know what happened in Ahmici. I heard about Ahmici
8 only when I arrived in Busovaca, and that was the end
9 of April or, rather, the beginning of May, 1993.
10 Q. When was it? Who was it? How was it that
11 you came to learn about what had happened in Ahmici at
12 the end of April or at the beginning of May, 1993?
13 A. Yes. At that time I was already a refugee
14 from Zenica. I arrived there and everybody was talking
15 about Ahmici, my own people, the Croats whom I had
16 cooperated with, my co-workers, as well as the people
17 that I was staying with at a Croat home. Before that,
18 in the period between the 16th and the 27th, I had not
19 heard of Ahmici.
20 Q. Could you please explain why all these people
21 that you met in Busovaca, and I am in particular
22 thinking of the Croats, why then they were talking so
23 much about Ahmici? What was it about Ahmici that made
24 it such a considerable event in their eyes?
25 A. It certainly wasn't a significant event. We
1 heard about the crime that was committed there, and
2 people were talking about it nonstop.
3 Q. Madam, please try to help us. Why couldn't
4 you stop talking about it?
5 A. Please, I arrived in Busovaca. Before that I
6 had not heard about these events. People were saying
7 that it was bad there, that people were killed there.
8 These were people that I had talked to or, rather, the
9 people I had talked to condemned this. That I know.
10 I know that many civilians were killed there and that
11 is what people talked about.
12 Q. Yesterday you told us that on April 18th you
13 had been arrested. You were taken into custody until
14 April 20th. According to the documents submitted by
15 Mr. Susak, it seems that you were arrested legally,
16 that is at least what seems to have taken place. Do
17 you agree? Was it a legal arrest which took place?
18 A. I did not understand what you said. What is
19 this seeming legitimacy that you mentioned?
20 Q. We have seen a document, a document which
21 refers to a certain number of laws, and a document
22 which is signed by a representative of a particular
23 authority. You have told us at length about these two
24 days you spent in custody. Why? What was your aim?
25 Did you want to complain about the conditions you had
1 to live in or were you aiming to complain about the
2 authority which arrested you? Why did you talk at
3 length about it?
4 A. Those two days were crucial days in my life,
5 and I don't think I've been very well since then at
6 all. These two days left quite an imprint on my heart
7 and my soul, and I shall never forget those two days
8 for as long as I live.
9 They brought me in from a civilian bus, or,
10 rather, I was with a group of civilians and there were
11 a few soldiers there who came subsequently, from the
12 hills, and they put us altogether into a bus. They
13 took the soldiers to the house of correction and they
14 took the civilians along too. And then they took the
15 civilians home.
16 At the end, when all the men were taken out
17 of the bus, they came to pick me up and they took me to
18 the house of correction. They took me to some kind of
19 entrance, I don't know, I hadn't entered the actual
20 building yet. It was some kind of a reception. They
21 called from this reception desk. I asked why did they
22 bring me in; is there a warden, a director, whoever
23 there. "I want to ask him why I am there." They took
24 me away.
25 It was 11.30 p.m. when we saw the warden of
1 the prison in the park of the house of correction. I
2 asked him, very kindly, to explain to me why I was
3 there. He said that he didn't know. He was making fun
4 of me. Then I told him to take me to someone who knew,
5 because I knew of my rights. I studied this in
6 secondary school. I realised that according to the
7 Geneva Conventions I was not supposed to be taken into
8 custody because I was medical staff, I was a nurse,
9 after all. When they put me in the cell, I did not
10 receive any papers whatsoever.
11 Two days after that, when they released me,
12 they gave me both of those two papers together. What
13 was important for me was to go home to my children.
14 They asked me for these papers. Rather, it was only
15 the gentleman from UNPROFOR who asked me for those two
16 papers, and they gave them to the police in Busovaca.
17 It is only then that I realised what Article 119 or
18 whatever meant on those papers. And that is when I
19 found that out.
20 I didn't know about it before that.
21 Q. Were you mistreated during that period you
22 spent in custody?
23 A. I wasn't physically mistreated. I was taken
24 for questioning two or three times within those two
25 days, which means on Monday I was there in the morning
1 and in the afternoon. In the afternoon I was there
2 from 6.00 to 9.00. In the morning they also took me
3 away, and then shortly after that I heard that I was to
4 be released.
5 Q. Madam, do you know that at the same time,
6 from April 16th to the 1st of May, about 50 women and
7 children whose parents, fathers, cousins, uncles had
8 been massacred in Ahmici were put into custody in the
9 Dubravica school, and that was not a legal arrest at
10 all, because there was no legally registered document
11 which was signed to justify their detention?
12 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I repeat again, from the 16th
13 to the 20th, I didn't know what was happening around
14 me, not even in my own town, never mind outside of it.
15 When I left the house of correction, even then I didn't
16 hear anything that was going on around me. It was
17 important to me just to leave Zenica, and I believed
18 the people, that they would send somebody to collect
19 me. And they said, "Be patient. Don't worry, we will
20 send UNPROFOR to fetch you." So until then I didn't
21 have any idea what was going on. I was out of my
22 mind. I don't even know exactly when I was taken from
23 Zenica to Busovaca.
24 The people who brought me in front of the
25 police station in Busovaca knew that I had no idea what
1 was going on. I even left my bag there where all my
2 documents were. I really was out of my mind. I was
3 only thinking about myself and nobody else.
4 Q. Is it for this particular reason also that
5 yesterday you did not mention the shelling of Zenica
6 which took place on April 19th, 1993? I think this is
7 a considerable and significant event, don't you?
8 A. I was in the house of correction, and I
9 heard -- whether this was shelling or -- I heard
10 shooting, explosions. I was afraid for my life at that
11 time also. In the house of correction, they also
12 played the news for us, and we knew that there was
13 shooting in the town of Zenica.
14 Q. You were afraid for your life, Madam, but all
15 the victims were Muslims. There were about 15 dead
16 people, there were about 30 injured people. This is
17 what took place on April 19th, 1993, in Zenica. Do you
18 know that the inquiry showed that the shelling came
19 from the Vitez area? Do you know that these shells had
20 been sent by a rocket launcher belonging to the HVO?
21 A. I didn't know about that. I know nothing
22 about that. I only know that in that place, I heard
23 that not only Muslims were killed there, there were
24 others too.
25 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Madam. I have no
1 further questions for the witness, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier.
3 Counsel Susak?
4 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Re-examined by Mr. Susak:
6 Q. You mentioned Cajdras a little earlier on.
7 This is where the headquarters were, and there were a
8 lot of civilians there as well. I am thinking about
9 the 18th of April, 1993.
10 A. The 18th of April, 1993, after the withdrawal
11 from Trokuce, we went towards Podbrezje, towards
12 Calici, we arrived in Zmajevac, and then we arrived in
13 Cajdras. All people who were in the command arrived
14 there, so the army, members who were in the command as
15 well the civilians from those settlements that we
16 passed through, they went with us, but many people in
17 the village had heard shooting and they didn't know
18 what was going on. They hid in the cellars of their
19 homes. And then they were used as human shields for
20 the Mujahedin later. They were tied, those people who
21 didn't follow the army, who remained in the village.
22 Q. Do you know that a group of civilians went
23 towards Kuber or at the foot of the Kuber towards
25 A. No.
1 Q. You told the Prosecutor just now that as a
2 nurse, you were providing treatment in the health
3 clinic to people who had nervous problems, so we took
4 that you were a psychiatrist. So as a nurse, you were
5 actually giving medical assistance in cases where
6 people were physically injured?
7 A. I am not a psychiatrist, but I had some
8 Apaurine drugs in my pocket so people who were under
9 stress, who were nervous because of what was happening,
10 I was offering those tranquillisers so that they would
11 calm down.
12 Q. Did you provide medical treatment as well?
13 Were there any injured?
14 A. Of course, yes. This was my job. So from
15 Podbrezje in the morning, I said they brought the first
16 dead man to me. Then I had Marko Dujak who was wounded
17 and we carried him all the way from the command, so
18 maybe about 800 metres or one kilometre, we went by
19 car; then we continued on foot through the hills and
20 the forest until we arrived in Zmajevac. Then the
21 wounded person was carried -- transported by car as far
22 as the car could go, to the foot of Zmajevac, to the
23 village of Grm, and then from there, they transported
24 him to Cajdras. How, I don't know. I found all this
25 out later. He was wounded. He was shot through the
2 When I arrived to Cajdras, there were five
3 less seriously wounded persons.
4 Q. While you were detained, were you released
5 before anybody else?
6 A. Yes, I was released in two days. The others
7 remained longer.
8 Q. Could you please tell us the reasons, the
9 real reasons, for this? Why were you released before
10 everyone else, if you know this, of course?
11 A. I think -- because when I left the house of
12 correction, I was visited by Father Bozo Marketic from
13 Cajdras. He asked me whether I was physically abused
14 and also to talk with me. I said I wasn't mistreated
15 physically. I asked whether they were making some kind
16 of recommendation that I be released because I was the
17 only woman who had been detained. He had said, "No,"
18 they wanted to have everybody released
20 The woman who was with me in the cell told me
21 that the International Red Cross was supposed to tour
22 the house of correction and that they would give me a
23 toothbrush, toothpaste, and so on. I didn't wait for
24 this because I was released before. I concluded later
25 that I was released because they didn't want the
1 International Red Cross to see me because I was
2 captured and detained while I was still wearing my
3 white uniform.
4 Q. You signed your detention order here. I can
5 see your signature on the document. But there is no
6 date. Also, this order on the release, there is no
7 date either. You said that you got both orders only
8 after you left the house of correction.
9 A. Yes. This is correct. I did not receive any
10 kind of document on my arrest. Only half an hour
11 before I was released I was given some papers. They
12 said, "Sign this. You're going home."
13 Q. Do you know that when a document is signed in
14 court that the date is more important than the
16 A. No, I don't know this.
17 Q. Here, on the detention or the arrest decree,
18 it only says that you have been detained. And then, on
19 the release documents, it says that there are no more
20 reasons for detention. Did anybody explain to you why
21 you were detained?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did anybody tell you or talk about the facts
24 why you were detained because you answered the question
25 by the Prosecution that you don't know what Article 119
2 A. Nobody explained anything. They kept
3 examining me and questioning me. They kept asking for
4 answers but nobody explained anything because I said at
5 11.30 p.m., when they brought me to the house of
6 correction, I wanted to meet the warden because I
7 wanted to explain to him that I wasn't supposed to be
9 Q. Have you any knowledge about the fact that
10 the region under control of the BH army, they were
11 concealing the illegal arrest and detention of people;
12 do you know this?
13 A. Could you please repeat the question?
14 Q. The question is: Did the Muslim authorities
15 conceal the arrest of Croats in the same way as they
16 did in your case by issuing the documents once these
17 people were released, and I'm talking about Croats?
18 A. Well, if it happened to me, it probably
19 happened to others.
20 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no further
21 questions, but I ask that these two documents be
22 admitted into evidence, and I have five copies of each
23 one. Thank you.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection.
25 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D9/4.
1 The next document is D10/4.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: No, because one has already
3 been handed in. It was D8/4. So this one is D9/4.
4 THE REGISTRAR: D9/4. So there is only one
5 document D9/4.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: No, sorry. The one which was
7 already provided to us yesterday is D8/4. So the
8 second one ...
9 THE REGISTRAR: Is D9/4.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Since there is no
11 objection from the Prosecution, these two documents are
12 admitted into evidence.
13 There are no questions from the Court. I
14 assume there is no objection to the witness being
16 Mrs. Tolic, thank you for testifying in
17 court. You may now be released. Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you bring in your next
21 witness, who is not a protected witness?
22 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: So it is Mrs. Grubesic?
24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. Grubesic.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Ljuban -- sorry. Mr.
1 Ljuban Grubesic. Yes. Called by yourself, Counsel
2 Slokovic-Glumac, and Counsel Radovic.
3 (The witness entered court)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon,
5 Mr. Grubesic. Could you please make the solemn
7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
12 WITNESS: LJUBAN GRUBESIC
13 Examined by Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac:
14 Q. Good day, Mr. Grubesic. Could you please
15 tell us where you were born, when, and where do you
16 reside and what do you do now?
17 A. My name is Ljuban Grubesic. I was born on
18 the 24th of June, 1973, in Kiseljak. I reside in
19 Oseliste. I'm a refugee from Busovaca, and I work in
20 the Busovaca police administration.
21 Q. In 1992, you were serving your military term
22 in the JNA?
23 A. Yes. I escaped at the end of February '92
24 from there. I came home and, out of fear that the
25 former JNA would look for me, I left the country. I
1 went to Austria.
2 Q. Just one moment. When you said you returned
3 home, you returned to Oseliste, the municipality of
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Then you left for Austria?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then you returned after some time home to
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where did you begin working when you came
12 back to Oseliste?
13 A. Well, I came to Oseliste at the end of
14 October '92.
15 Q. Where did you start working?
16 A. I started to work at the Busovaca police
17 administration at the beginning of November '92.
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Well, in order to
19 follow more easily what you will be testifying about, I
20 would like the usher to give you and the Trial Chamber
21 this map.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The document is D64/2.
23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
24 Q. Could you please indicate Oseliste, how many
25 kilometres it is away from Busovaca, and if you could
1 also indicate this on the ELMO, please?
2 A. This is Oseliste. It's ten kilometres away
3 from Busovaca. That's this part here (indicating).
4 Q. Could you indicate Busovaca, please?
5 A. (Indicating)
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter can't hear the
8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
9 Q. These villages that are next to your village
10 of Oseliste, they are called Gusti Grab, then across
11 the road there is the village of Bukovci, and then some
12 smaller settlements. Are these mainly Croatian
13 settlements in this region between Kacuni and
14 Bilalovac, which are all on the map? If you could
15 indicate Bilalovac on the map, please? Have you found
16 Kacuni; is that right?
17 A. (Indicating)
18 Q. Okay. And Bilalovac?
19 A. (Indicating)
20 Q. So in this region between Kacuni and
21 Bilalovac on the left side and the right side, are
22 these predominantly Croat settlements at that time?
23 Then Oseliste, where you were born and where you lived,
24 what was the population in Oseliste?
25 A. Oseliste was 100 per cent Croat.
1 Q. After you started to work in the civilian
2 police, what did you do? Were you an intern, trainee?
3 A. Yes. I had the status of trainee, which I
4 fulfilled within six months.
5 Q. At that time, in November of '92, was there a
6 joint police in Busovaca? Were both Croats and Muslims
7 members of that police force?
8 A. Yes, they were.
9 Q. So what happened on the 25th of January of
11 A. On the 25th of January of '93, at about 11.00
12 a.m., I went to work in Busovaca.
13 Q. What happened on the way there?
14 A. Well, I went down to the road. The bus lines
15 were not operating, so I was hitchhiking. A truck
16 stopped for me, so I took the truck in the direction of
17 Busovaca; and then in Kacuni, close to the mosque, to
18 be more precise, five masked soldiers ran out into the
19 road. They were armed.
20 Q. Whose soldiers were they?
21 A. They were soldiers of the BH army. They were
22 wearing black uniforms and had black caps on their
24 Q. Then what happened?
25 A. When they stopped us, they approached the
1 vehicle with their weapons. They pointed rifles at
2 both of us, on our necks. They told us to come out of
3 the vehicle, and that's what we did. They took my
4 weapons from me, the rifle and the gun.
5 Q. You were in uniform?
6 A. Yes. So they took the rifle and the gun,
7 they searched us, and then they told us we could go,
8 after which we went into the vehicle again, and we
9 started off in the direction of Busovaca.
10 I arrived in Busovaca, and I reported to my
11 commander what had happened. He called Kacuni, he
12 called the BH army command, and he told them what had
13 happened and asked for these weapons to be returned, if
15 Shortly after that, the phone rang, and my
16 commander answered it, and he was told that there had
17 been shooting in Kacuni, that members of the BH army
18 had attacked the escort of the military police and that
19 there were some injured. This was two people, one of
20 them was a member of the military police, and then
21 afterwards, we found out that the other person was just
22 passing through, he was temporarily there from Konjic.
23 Q. So a member of the military police, Ivica
24 Petrovic, was killed then?
25 A. Yes. That same day, he was brought to
1 Busovaca, to the health clinic, and that's where I saw
3 Q. So could you please tell us whether a state
4 of alert was declared, a higher state of alert was
5 declared at that time? Do you have any information
6 about this?
7 A. No, I don't know whether the state of alert
8 was declared in the military units.
9 Q. Was it discovered what had happened in Dusina
10 on that day?
11 A. No.
12 Q. What happened on the 26th in the morning?
13 A. On the 26th in the morning at 6 a.m. the
14 siren went off and it had the general danger tone. And
15 then that day the shooting started around the town and
16 in the town itself.
17 Q. Who attacked Busovaca?
18 A. Busovaca was attacked by members of the BiH
20 Q. So how many days did these combat activities
21 go on for?
22 A. The combat went on for about 10 days.
23 Q. You were in Busovaca during that whole time?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You couldn't go home?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So what did you find out then?
3 A. On the 26th of January, 1993, we found out
4 that there was shooting in Dusina, and then on the 27th
5 of January we found out that there were a lot killed in
6 Dusina. We found this out from two of the citizens of
7 Dusina who managed to escape.
8 Q. What did you find out about your parents some
9 10 days after that?
10 A. Ten days later I was called to the Red Cross
11 and they told me there that both of my parents were
12 killed, and that they had already been buried the day
14 Q. Where were your parents killed?
15 A. My parents were killed in our family house in
16 Oseliste, the municipality of Busovaca.
17 Q. How old were your parents?
18 A. My father was 59 years old. My mother was 58
19 years old.
20 Q. Where are they buried?
21 A. My parents are buried in Badnje, in the
22 municipality of Kiseljak.
23 Q. In view of the fact that you didn't see your
24 parents --
25 A. No.
1 Q. -- who informed you about where their bodies
2 were found?
3 A. After 10 days, from the outbreak of the
4 conflict, the phone lines started to work again, so
5 that my uncle Janko Grubesic called me on the phone and
6 told me what had happened. He saw them. He found out
7 about their murder from Mato Drljepan, who had come to
8 his house and told him that they were killed.
9 Q. So could you please tell us whether your
10 father had weapons?
11 A. My father never had any weapons.
12 Q. Was anybody else killed in the village at
13 that time?
14 A. Yes, several persons were killed. My parents
15 were killed, as I have stated, Anto Simic was killed,
16 Ante Steko was killed, Niko Kristo, Stipo Pravd and the
17 husband of his mother Kata Pravd.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: I suggest we take a break, a
19 30-minute break.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.06 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 3.36 p.m.
22 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. We would like to
24 proceed now. So, as regards the death of your parents,
25 you only know about that from the stories of other
1 people, do you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell me, what does your neighbour tell you?
4 Where were your parents killed?
5 A. My neighbour, Mato Drljepan, told me that my
6 parents were in his house and that they went back to
7 their own house.
8 Q. They were in his house, you said. They
9 actually fled from their own house; is that correct?
10 A. Yes. During the conflict they left their own
11 house and they stayed at his house. After some time
12 they returned to their own home. When the BiH Army
13 came to his house, they told him that they killed Mijo
14 and Anda. He didn't believe it. He headed towards my
15 parents home to check. When he arrived to the house,
16 he saw my father lying dead in front of the house and
17 he ran away. He went in the direction of Kiseljak.
18 Then he came to my uncle's house, my uncle
19 Janko Grubesic, and he told them that my parents had
20 been killed. My uncle got into the car and went to my
21 parents house where he found them dead. My father was
22 lying in front of the house and my mother was in the
23 house. My father was shot in the head and my mother
24 was shot in the back. Somebody had shot through the
25 door. He put their bodies into the house (sic) and
1 went to Kiseljak. They were shooting after him, but he
2 managed to get out. He organised the funeral and they
3 were buried in the village of Badnje, the municipality
4 of Kiseljak.
5 Q. Mr. Grubesic, could you tell us whether in
6 Oseliste there were any Croats left in that village
7 after the 16th of April?
8 A. No, there were no Croats left there.
9 Q. In the surrounding villages that you pointed
10 out to us, Gusti Grab, Bukovci?
11 A. No, no Croats were left there either.
12 Q. Tell me, do you know whether the houses were
13 burnt down in those villages?
14 A. Yes, I know. Most of the houses were burnt
15 down, almost all of them, and those that were not
16 burned were looted and destroyed. I think that houses
17 were torched up there, according to a certain list.
18 That is what I was told by a neighbour of mine, Mato
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could I please ask the
21 usher to hand out these death certificates.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document D65/2.
23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
24 Q. Is this the death certificate of your
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And whose else?
3 A. This is the death certificate of my parents,
4 of Niko Kristo, Ante Steko.
5 Q. So all of them were killed at that time, were
7 A. Yes, all of them were killed approximately
8 during those 10 days of conflict in the territory of
9 the municipality of Busovaca. And they were
11 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could I please ask the
12 usher to hand out these photographs as well.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document D66/2.
14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
15 Q. Please tell us, Mr. Grubesic, do you know
16 what this is?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Which houses are these? You don't have to
19 look at the list, because it's all there. Are these
20 pictures of houses from your village?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you please have a look at this entire
23 file of photographs. Are these houses in Oseliste?
24 A. Yes, all of them are in Oseliste.
25 Q. Tell me, was your house burnt down?
1 A. My house was not burnt down, but it was
2 looted completely, so only the bare walls are there.
3 Q. Tell me, do you know how many houses were
4 burnt down?
5 A. I think that from Kacuni to Brestovsko there
6 were over 100 burnt houses.
7 Q. Were all of them torched at that time,
8 between the 25th of January, 1993 to the 30th of
9 January, 1993?
10 A. No, not all the houses were torched in that
11 period of time, only some of them were. The rest were
12 torched after the 30th of January.
13 Q. Could you also tell us who made this file of
15 A. This file of photographs was made by a
16 co-worker of mine, otherwise a criminology technician
17 at the police office in Busovaca. It was made after
18 the cease-fire was signed.
19 Q. All right. One more thing. The map that I
20 first showed you, could we please have a look at that
21 map. This neighbouring village of Gusti Grab, you also
22 said that this is a Croatian village, and Bukovci,
23 across the road?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you also show Nezirovici on this map,
1 please. Could you show Dusina and Lasva. In the
2 middle. Yes, you've shown it to us. Could you please
3 show Lasva too. You have to show it here on the ELMO.
4 Very well. Thank you. Please, could you have a look
5 at these other photo files.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document D67/2.
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
8 Q. Tell me, can you recognise these houses?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And from which villages are these houses?
11 A. These houses are from the villages of Gusti
12 Grab, Bukovci, and a number of houses are from
14 Q. Tell me, was this photo file made by your
15 colleague too?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I would like this photo file to be handed out
18 too, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document D68/2.
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
21 Q. Tell me, now we are talking about this photo
22 file. Which villages are these houses from?
23 A. In these photo files we can see photographs
24 from the village of Nezirovici.
25 Q. Are there some houses from Kacuni there too?
1 A. It is difficult to discern them in this photo
2 file, because all of the houses were destroyed.
3 Q. Tell me, was this photo file also made by
4 your co-worker?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is he the one who took the photographs of
7 destroyed Croat houses in that area?
8 A. Yes. He took the photographs of these houses
9 in the villages of Nezirovici, Gusti Grab, Oseliste and
10 Bukovci, and I think partly in Kacuni too.
11 Q. On the map that you looked at a few minutes
12 ago, and this part between Kacuni and Bilalovac, do you
13 know, after the January conflict, whether that area
14 remained throughout the war, whether it remained
15 completely separated throughout the war?
16 A. Yes. Yes, this part from Kacuni to
17 Brestovsko, and that's about 15 kilometres altogether.
18 It was completely cut off, so the Lasva River Valley
19 was cut up into two pieces.
20 Q. This part between Kacuni and Bilalovac was
21 held by the BiH Army; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, we have
24 another video clip. We have filmed these houses too.
25 Since I gave the video cassette to the Prosecutor
1 yesterday, we can only look at the introduction,
2 perhaps, and then if the Prosecutor agrees, it can be
3 admitted into evidence without actually viewing the
4 entire tape.
5 These are houses from that area and the
6 filming was actually done after these photo files had
7 been made, and it was done by a criminology
9 JUDGE CASSESE: We feel that since, in any
10 case, we have been handed all these photographs, it is
11 probably not necessary to view the film, and if you
12 wish and the Prosecutor does not object, the videotape
13 could be admitted into evidence. If it is just, I
14 mean, a videotape showing all these --
15 MR. TERRIER: We have no objection, Your
16 Honour. No objection the videotape being admitted into
18 THE REGISTRAR: The videotape is document
19 number 69/2.
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Grubesic, what happened after the
22 conflict in January?
23 A. After the conflict or, rather, after the
24 cease-fire was signed, on the 15th of April, 1993, I
25 heard that in Kuber, in the municipality of Busovaca,
1 there was a conflict between the members of the BH army
2 and the HVO. On that occasion, two members of the HVO
3 were wounded, namely, Dragan Andrijasevic and Slavko
5 Q. Do you know where they were from?
6 A. Both were from Jelinak, the municipality of
8 Q. Do you know what happened in Kuber after
9 that, on the 16th and the 17th of April, 1993?
10 A. Yes. On the 17th of April, in the morning, I
11 was informed -- in the police, of course -- that a
12 conflict had broken out in Kuber, that the BH army had
13 attacked members of the HVO who were up there and that
14 one member of the HVO was wounded. For assistance, we
15 sent out a group from the ranks of the police, a group
16 of eleven persons.
17 Q. Were you with them?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. Where did you go?
20 A. I think there were eleven of us. We went to
21 Jelinak where we were taken over or taken under the
22 wing of a member of the HVO who took us to the hill of
24 Q. That was an elevation; is that right?
25 A. Yes. We went up there, and we found members
1 of the HVO in the forest in positions because the BH
2 army had pushed them back from their positions. So we
3 joined them there and we took up positions in the
5 Shortly after that, a strong attack took
6 place. It was carried out by members of the BH army,
7 so that these men had to retreat. I stayed and a
8 member of the HVO.
9 Q. What was his name?
10 A. Anto Plavcic. So we stayed there for some
11 time, and then after that, Anto Plavcic was killed.
12 After he died, I tried to retreat back towards Jelinak,
13 and I was wounded in my right hand and also I was shot
14 through the lungs. When I was hit in the hand, my
15 right hand was completely shattered. I was bleeding a
16 lot, but I managed to cover about 300 metres. Because
17 I had lost a lot of blood, I fell there and I couldn't
18 get up anymore.
19 Q. And then you were captured; is that right?
20 A. Yes. After about 15 minutes, a group
21 arrived, a group of members of the BH army, it came
22 from the rear, and it found me there.
23 Q. So who rescued you?
24 A. A majority wanted to have me killed right
25 there, but one of the group approached, I think he was
1 the commander, he bandaged me and charged four soldiers
2 to carry me to the hospital.
3 Q. So they took you to the hospital in Zenica;
4 is that right?
5 A. Yes. They took me to Zenica, to the
7 Q. And you had surgery there?
8 A. Yes. After four hours, they brought me in
9 front of the hospital, and that's where I lost
10 consciousness because I had been bleeding for a while,
11 had lost a lot of blood. I don't know after how long,
12 I woke up, and I was in the hospital room.
13 Q. What happened in the hospital? Could you
14 please tell us what was the attitude towards you, the
15 attitude of the medical personnel and the soldiers?
16 Did they take care of you?
17 A. I wasn't guarded by soldiers. The hospital
18 staff conducted itself correctly, but I was exposed to
19 abuse by the soldiers who would come with weapons, and
20 they threatened that they would kill me. Also, I was
21 very afraid because of the Mujahedin; and when I say
22 "Mujahedin," I mean the foreign nationals who were
23 fighting in the ranks of the BH army.
24 Q. When did you leave the hospital and how?
25 A. After 13 days spent in the hospital, I
1 received information that they wanted to take me to the
2 house of correction. I decided to escape from the
3 hospital, which is what I did with the help of people,
4 and I request, for the security of those persons --
5 Q. There's no need. You don't need to tell us
6 their names. Where did you hide after that?
7 A. After I escaped from the hospital, I was
8 hiding for five days in Zenica. I tried, with the help
9 of some people, to get out of Zenica, with the help of
10 UNPROFOR, but they refused.
11 Q. Were you healed by then?
12 A. No. During those five days, I wasn't even
13 bandaged, so I was afraid that my wounds would get
14 infected because they hadn't healed properly.
15 Q. So how did you get out?
16 A. When I was in Zenica, I received false
17 identity papers in another name, and that's how I
18 managed to transfer to Kakanj. I was there for 17
20 Q. And then after that, you go on to Fojnica?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And then to Kiseljak; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So how long did it take to go from Zenica to
1 A. I think it took about 30 days.
2 Q. How long did you receive medical treatment
3 after that?
4 A. For another six months.
5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Would the usher please
6 give these documents to the Trial Chamber?
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, we
8 were wondering whether we need all these details.
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I am almost finished.
10 I am finished, Mr. President. I just wanted for it to
11 be seen that this story is true. We have confirmed
12 this story, we have corroborated it with documents. I
13 have no further questions. Thank you.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document D70/2.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
16 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. I have no
17 questions, but I will probably redirect after the
18 Prosecution, if the Prosecutor intends to use the
19 documents that he gave us today to examine the witness.
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I would also tender
21 documents D64/2 to D70/2 into evidence.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection? No objection.
23 There is no objection from the Prosecution, so they are
24 admitted into evidence.
25 Mr. Smith?
1 MR. SMITH: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Smith:
3 Q. Mr. Grubesic, I appear on behalf of the
4 Prosecution team with Mr. Terrier and Mr. Blaxill, and
5 it is my job to ask you a few questions about the
6 information that you have given to the Court today to
7 clarify a few issues. Do you understand that?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SMITH: Your Honours, I would ask that
10 the witness be shown a map, a map of the area of
11 Busovaca and Kiseljak. My friend, Ms. Glumac, used a
12 map earlier, but this covers a broader area, which
13 would help facilitate the cross-examination.
14 Unfortunately, it's not in colour.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 347.
16 MR. SMITH:
17 Q. Mr. Grubesic, do you see the black and white
18 map that I have just placed on the ELMO in front of you
19 to your left?
20 A. Yes, I see the map, but I can't read anything
21 on it.
22 MR. SMITH: Perhaps if the map on the ELMO
23 could be placed in front of him? Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Grubesic, this map is slightly more
25 difficult to read, but I have highlighted some of the
1 villages that are around the area that you lived in and
2 obviously around the Busovaca area. Take your time to
3 orientate yourself on the map.
4 A. Yes. It's better now.
5 Q. The map has highlighted the village of
6 Oseliste; do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I see it.
8 Q. You mentioned some houses were destroyed in
9 Bukovci, which is just across the road, the main road
10 between Busovaca and Kiseljak? You see Bukovci?
11 A. Yes, I see.
12 Q. The other two villages that you mentioned had
13 some destroyed houses further up the road towards
14 Busovaca, Nezirovici and Gusti Grab; you referred to
15 them in your testimony earlier?
16 A. Yes, yes, I said -- but not some houses were
17 destroyed but a large majority of them, practically all
18 of them.
19 Q. You also mentioned, when the photographs were
20 shown to you, that some of the houses in those
21 photograph albums you believed came from -- the photos
22 were from Kacuni.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But you're not sure which ones they are. Do
25 you know which houses in the photograph albums relate
1 to Kacuni?
2 A. I think, if I looked at the captions or the
3 index, then I could indicate a large number of houses
4 from Kacuni, and here I see the house of Andtelko
5 Kvesic which is in Kacuni.
6 Q. You stated to the Court that you believed
7 these houses were damaged between the 25th of January
8 and within a ten-day period after that; is that right?
9 A. Yes, some were destroyed from the 25th, but I
10 don't know how long this destruction went on. I think
11 for ten or fifteen days after that.
12 Q. You've been told this information from other
13 people; is that right?
14 A. Yes, I received this information from other
15 people, but after the cease-fire was signed, I passed
16 through that area and I saw all those destroyed
17 homes -- not all of them, but most of them.
18 Q. The cease-fire was signed on what date; do
19 you remember?
20 A. I don't know the exact date.
21 Q. Was it sometime in February '93?
22 A. Yes, I think it was February, ten days after
23 the 25th.
24 Q. Now, you mentioned that -- I think you stated
25 on the 25th of January, you were stopped at a
1 checkpoint at Kacuni by some people you believed to be
2 in the Bosnian army; is that right?
3 A. Yes. I was stopped roughly; guns were
4 pointed at my neck.
5 Q. You stated that you attended back at the
6 police station in Busovaca. Was it the police
7 commander that rang or was it a military commander that
8 rang the headquarters at Kacuni to find out what was
9 going on?
10 A. I didn't say that I returned to Busovaca but
11 that I continued on to Busovaca, and I reported to my
12 commander, the commander of the civilian police, and he
13 called Kacuni, the command of the BH army, but I don't
14 know who he spoke with.
15 Q. When did you receive information that someone
16 had been injured at the checkpoint? Was it the same
17 day, the 25th?
18 A. Yes, in the afternoon.
19 Q. As far as you're concerned, that was when the
20 conflict started, on the 25th, in Kacuni at least?
21 A. As far as I know, yes. In Kacuni, near the
22 mosque in Kacuni, to be more precise. As far as I
23 heard, a military police patrol was attacked.
24 Q. Kacuni is largely a Muslim town; that's
25 right, isn't it?
1 A. I think that the ratio of the population in
2 Kacuni is about 50-50 per cent, but there are villages,
3 several villages, where there is a Muslim majority.
4 Q. In any event, prior to the 25th of January,
5 there was no blockade between Busovaca and Kiseljak;
6 you could gain access from both towns, you could get to
7 work every day?
8 A. Yes. I came to work normally, and until
9 then, I had never had any problems.
10 Q. After this ten days of conflict, Busovaca and
11 Kiseljak were separated; you couldn't gain access from
12 one town to the other. Is that right?
13 A. No, you couldn't get to Kiseljak from
14 Busovaca nor from Kiseljak to Busovaca.
15 Q. Is it the case that -- tell me if you don't
16 know -- but is it the case that it was from Bilalovac
17 to Kacuni that no access could be gained by HVO
18 soldiers after the ten days of conflict?
19 A. No. The BH army would not permit passage.
20 Q. That's correct. So in relation to Oseliste
21 and Bukovci, that was a frontline, that area was being
22 fought over between the HVO and the Bosnian army over
23 that ten-day period? If you don't know, just say "I
24 don't know."
25 A. As far as I know, the line, the separation
1 line was in Kacuni and civilians were up there, Croats.
2 Q. Do you agree with me that in that area that
3 was being fought over by the two armies, over that
4 ten-day period?
5 A. As far as I know, there wasn't any fighting
6 up there, and this entire area was under the control of
7 the BH army.
8 Q. For that ten-day period, from Bilalovac to
9 Kacuni, there was no fighting in that area; is that
10 what you are saying?
11 A. As far as I know, no.
12 Q. I want to show you a document. It's an order
13 from the commander of the Ban Jelacic Brigade, which is
14 based in Kiseljak. I would like you to read that order
15 and see whether that refreshes your memory about what
16 was happening between Kacuni and Bilalovac over that
17 ten-day period.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 348.
19 MR. SMITH:
20 Q. Have you had a chance to read the document?
21 A. Yes, I have read the document.
22 Q. You can see it's dated the 27th of January,
23 1993. In the third paragraph, the last sentence it
24 states, "The Bukovci village must be taken by nightfall
25 on condition that we burn anything standing in our
1 way." Do you see that sentence?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That would seem to indicate that there may
4 well have been fighting between Kacuni and Bilalovac
5 over that ten-day period; does it not?
6 A. Since I am not a military man, I find this
7 order a bit strange. I did not have the opportunity to
8 see such documents. And these villages here, the ones
9 mentioned here, are in the territory of the
10 municipality of Kiseljak, so I don't know what was
11 going on up there.
12 Q. Bukovci is in Busovaca municipality; isn't
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That's what this order refers to. I think
16 you said in your evidence earlier that Bukovci was a
17 predominantly Croat village. Are you sure about that?
18 A. No, I did not say that. The majority
19 population was Muslim, but there were about 15 to 20
20 Croat houses there too.
21 Q. You said that the attack on Busovaca by the
22 Bosnian army occurred on the 26th of January. Are you
23 sure that the fighting occurred on the 26th or could
24 you be mistaken about the dates? Could it have
25 occurred on the 25th of January?
1 A. I said that on the 25th there was an incident
2 in Kacuni, and on that occasion two persons were
3 killed. They were both Croats.
4 Q. Did you say that two people were killed or
5 two people were injured?
6 A. Killed.
7 Q. What were you doing on the 16th -- sorry, on
8 the 26th of January?
9 A. On the 26th of January I was at the police
11 Q. Within the township of Busovaca on the day
12 that you say the attack occurred, a large number of
13 Muslims were arrested and taken to Kaonik Camp. Are
14 you aware of that?
15 A. I heard about that.
16 Q. Are you aware that on the 26th of January, in
17 Loncari, a large number of Muslims from that village
18 were taken to Kaonik Camp?
19 A. I don't know about that.
20 Q. Are you aware of a large number of Muslims
21 from the Jelinak village being taken to Kaonik Camp on
22 the 26th of January?
23 A. I don't know about that either.
24 Q. Do you know about Kaonik Camp and what was
25 happening there in January, early February, from the
1 25th of January to the 10th of February? Do you know
2 what was happening at that place?
3 A. I heard that there was a prison over there,
4 but I don't know what was happening there. And I
5 didn't visit that prison either at that time.
6 Q. Are you aware of a group of about 15 Muslims
7 being taken to the village of Merdani and used as
8 hostages in order that the residents from the village
9 surrender their weapons, the Muslim residents in late
10 January, 1993?
11 A. I don't know about that either.
12 Q. There's a few more of these situations that I
13 need to put to you, but you seem to be aware of some
14 matters, and I just want to see whether or not you are
15 aware of other events going on in a particular area at
16 the time.
17 There was a group of 15 men taken from Kaonik
18 Camp to a village called Stranjani in late January,
19 1993, and they were used as hostages so that the
20 Muslims from that village would hand over their
21 weapons. Are you aware of that?
22 A. I am not aware of that event. If something
23 had happened, I think it was done by the army, and I
24 was a member of the civilian police.
25 Q. These events are common knowledge to some
1 people, so in terms of if you picked it up from common
2 knowledge, that's why I am asking you.
3 In relation to the village of Skradno, the
4 same incident occurred where 15 Muslims were taken to
5 the village as hostages, so that the male villagers
6 would hand over their weapons to the HVO. Were you
7 aware of that, in late January, 1993?
8 A. I'm not aware of that either.
9 Q. Can you explain to the Court your knowledge
10 of the Kaonik Camp, what it was, and what it was used
11 for in late January, 1993 through to June, '93.
12 A. Although I never went there, I cannot give
13 you the right picture.
14 Q. You must have some knowledge, bearing in mind
15 you were involved with the military when you went to
16 Kuber. You assisted in a military operation at Kuber
17 when you were injured. You must be aware of what was
18 happening at Kaonik Camp at that time.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, objection.
20 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I give all
21 credit to the Prosecutor, but he cannot tell the
22 witness what he does know, what he doesn't know. The
23 witness says what he knows and what he doesn't know,
24 and no one can make him know what he doesn't know.
25 So he insists on this question and keeps telling the
1 witness that he has to know that, and I think that that
2 is utterly wrong. Thank you.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You are right. I
4 think you should not insist because it's clear that the
5 witness does not know about the Kaonik Camp.
6 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. There is
7 just one last question I would like to ask.
8 Q. In relation to the practice of digging
9 trenches, you said that you went to the Kuber range and
10 I think you fought on the frontline for the HVO; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes, yes, I was at Kuber, but I was sent by
13 my commander. And what co-operation he had with the
14 army, that I don't know.
15 Q. Are you aware of the practice of
16 trench-digging in the Busovaca area in January and
17 February and then April in '93?
18 A. I am not aware of that.
19 Q. So you are not aware that large numbers of
20 Muslims, civilians, were used to dig trenches in
21 January and in April, 1993?
22 A. I have been saying that I was a member of the
23 civilian police, and if the army did something, I
24 cannot know about that.
25 Q. When you arrived back to Busovaca, Oseliste,
1 I think it was in November, 1992 from Austria; is that
3 A. Yes, I came from Austria.
4 Q. And the HVO had controlled all of the
5 government offices in the township of Busovaca; is that
7 A. I think that is not correct. I think that
8 the Croats and the Muslims were still together.
9 Q. Together in the sense of the governing
10 authority in Busovaca, together in the sense of the
11 police and in relation to joint military activity in
12 Busovaca township? In all of those areas are you
13 saying that the Muslims and the Croats were together on
14 equal footing when you arrived back?
15 A. As far as political decisions and political
16 activities are concerned, they were together. In the
17 police they were together. As regards the organisation
18 of the army, I am not familiar with that.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: I apologise for interrupting
20 you. Do you have still many more questions, because we
21 may take a break now.
22 MR. SMITH: I have about 15 minutes, Your
24 JUDGE CASSESE: So let's take a break and
25 then you resume your cross-examination. Fifteen minute
2 --- Recess taken at 4.46 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 5.06 p.m.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Smith, you said you need
5 about 15 more minutes?
6 MR. SMITH: I'll be less than that, Your
7 Honour, I think you'll be pleased. About five minutes.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Five minutes. Wonderful. We
9 had hoped we may finish with this witness this
10 afternoon, and we can get through tomorrow with the two
11 remaining witnesses, and also because, as you know, we
12 will skip one week. I imagine the witnesses are around
13 so they should not be required to come back in about
14 ten days.
15 Yes, please.
16 MR. SMITH:
17 Q. Mr. Grubesic, a lot of your testimony has
18 been about what people have told you what happened in
19 these villages, in the villages of Oseliste and Bukovci
20 and the villages in that area. Who were you receiving
21 your information from generally at the time, in April
22 1993? Was it military or was it friends or both?
23 A. I mainly received my information from
24 friends, mostly civilians.
25 Q. You mentioned that you received some
1 information about some happenings at Kuber. When did
2 you first receive information about any fighting at
3 Kuber in April '93?
4 A. I first heard about it on the 15th, that some
5 incidents occurred up there between the members of the
6 HVO and the BH army. I received this information at
7 the police, from my co-workers.
8 Q. You were working on the 15th of April; is
9 that right?
10 A. No. No, I was not.
11 Q. The first you heard of any incidents at Kuber
12 was when you were told on the 15th of April?
13 A. Yes. Yes. On the 15th of April, in the
15 Q. What day did you go to Kuber yourself?
16 A. On the 17th of April, in the morning.
17 Q. When was the first that you heard that
18 someone was killed at Kuber? On what day was the first
19 day that someone was killed at Kuber, to your
21 A. I think it was on the 17th, to the best of my
22 knowledge, and Anto Plavcic was killed, a member of the
23 HVO who was with me up there.
24 Q. Was it in the morning of the 17th or in the
1 A. In the morning.
2 Q. Are you aware that on the 15th of April, in
3 the village of Jelinak, which is near Kuber, that the
4 Muslim males from that village were arrested and taken
5 to Kaonik?
6 A. I'm not aware of that.
7 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
10 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender the exhibits.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: 347, 348 --
12 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: -- into evidence? No
14 objection from the Defence? No objection. Thank you.
15 They are admitted into evidence.
16 Now, as for the re-examination, Counsel
17 Radovic or Counsel Slokovic-Glumac? No? Counsel
19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I thought you would be
20 doing it [to Mr. Radovic].
21 Re-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
22 Q. Mr. Grubesic, in the area of Busovaca or in
23 the area of the municipality of Vitez, was there a camp
24 there? Did you hear of a camp being there?
25 A. No.
1 Q. What was in Kaonik? The Prosecutor mentioned
2 it. What was in Kaonik?
3 A. As far as I know, the district prison is
5 Q. Is that a big prison? Have you ever been
7 A. No.
8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could we please have
10 Q. Tell me, is any mention made of Nezirovici,
11 Gusti Grab, Oseliste in this document anywhere?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So no mention is made of any one of the
14 Croatian villages that are on the right-hand side when
15 going from Kiseljak to Busovaca, on the right-hand side
16 of the road? I mean -- yes.
17 A. No, no village is mentioned.
18 Q. This part above the road, was it
19 predominantly Croatian?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is there a village in this part that was
22 Muslim; do you know that?
23 A. Yes, there is. The village of Bukovci.
24 Q. Bukovci is on the lower side, on the
25 left-hand side, below the road; is that right?
1 A. Viewed from Kiseljak, they are on the
2 left-hand side of the road.
3 Q. So Bukovci was on the left-hand side of the
4 road and it had a predominantly Muslim population,
5 didn't it?
6 A. Yes. Perhaps there were some 20 Croat
8 Q. Bukovci is somewhere where the Kiseljak
9 municipality starts; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, yes. The village of Bukovci borders on
11 the Kiseljak municipality.
12 Q. The order that was issued was issued by the
13 commander of the Ban Jelacic Brigade in Kiseljak; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes, as far as I could read it.
16 Q. Did you know in those days what was actually
17 going on? Did you know that in that part, on the
18 left-hand side, that there was any combat action there?
19 A. No, I did not learn about that.
20 Q. Where was the war being waged between the BH
21 units and the Busovaca municipality? Was this
22 predominantly in town or in these villages in the
23 immediate vicinity of Busovaca?
24 A. Most of the fighting took place at the
25 separation lines, that is to say, in the surrounding
2 Q. Tell me, in relation to the villages that the
3 Prosecutor asked you about, that is to say, those that
4 are near Kuber, do you know whether Jelinak had a
5 majority Croat population or a majority Muslim
6 population? Jelinak and Putis.
7 A. I think that the Croat population had a
9 Q. What about Putis?
10 A. In Putis, there was a mixed population.
11 Q. Do you perhaps know whether any Croats
12 remained in Jelinak and Putis after these events? Are
13 there any Croats in that area? I'm talking about the
14 events of April 1993, when you said that you were there
16 A. As far as I know, Croats fled from that area.
17 Q. Were Croat houses burned in that area around
18 Kuber too?
19 A. As far as I managed to find out afterwards,
20 after the cease-fire was signed, all the houses up
21 there were either burned or destroyed.
22 Q. I have one more question regarding these
23 events. Do you know what happened in Kuber on the
24 16th? Was there fighting in Kuber then? You said that
25 you had information about a conflict on the 15th, and
1 then you know that on the 17th, there was fighting.
2 Did you participate, and was there any fighting on the
4 A. I think, yes, there were incidents.
5 Q. Do you know in which part, whether this was
6 from the side of Busovaca or from the Vitez side of
8 A. From the Busovaca side.
9 Q. Do you know in which places this happened?
10 A. I don't know the terrain up there very well.
11 I only know that the point, elevation where I was, is
12 called Saracevica, and near it there were some
14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you very much. I
15 have no more questions.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. There are no
17 questions from the Court.
18 Mr. Grubesic, thank you for giving evidence
19 in court. You may now be released. Thank you.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 JUDGE CASSESE: We move on to Mr. Stojak.
22 Yes, Counsel Susak?
23 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have a request
24 before we start with the next witness. I would like to
25 ask the Prosecution one question, and I also suggest
1 that we move into closed session because we will now
2 mention some names.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
4 (Closed session)
13 Page 6269 redacted – in closed session
17 (Open session)
18 (The witness entered court)
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Stojak, good afternoon.
20 Could you please make the solemn declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
1 WITNESS: DRAGAN STOJAK
2 Examined by Mr. Susak:
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Good day, Mr. Stojak.
5 A. Good day.
6 Q. Could you please tell us where you come from
7 and your date of birth.
8 A. I was born on the 30th of November, 1962 in
9 Vitez, and I am permanently residing in Vitez.
10 Q. What is your occupation?
11 A. I am a professor of All People's Defence.
12 Q. Are you married? Do you have children?
13 A. Yes, I am married. I have two children.
14 Q. Could you please tell us where you were
15 employed before the war.
16 A. On the 1st of June, in 1991, I started to
17 work at the intelligence centre in Vitez.
18 Q. Where did you work before that?
19 A. I wasn't working anywhere. After university
20 I spent two years on temporary work in Switzerland, and
21 then, when I came back from Switzerland, I started to
22 work at the centre.
23 Q. How long did you work there?
24 A. Until the 15th of August, 1998.
25 Q. Were any Muslims employed in the centre?
1 A. Yes. There were Muslims there. They were
2 employed there permanently.
3 Q. Could you give us some examples.
4 A. Yes. When I came to the centre for
5 intelligence, when I started to work there, Nedin
6 Zlotrg was my boss. He was the chief, the head of the
7 centre. And then also there were also Rasad Zlotrg,
8 Vladica Babic and myself who were working there. And
9 Dragan Bilatic as well.
10 Q. So how many were employed there?
11 A. There were four operatives working at the
12 centre, and one head of the centre.
13 Q. Is this centre -- was it later expanded, as
14 far as the staff was concerned?
15 A. In the course of aggression against Slovenia
16 and Croatia, the staff was increased mainly by
17 volunteers, because there was more work to do.
18 Q. Were there any changes in the centre? Was
19 there any reconstruction carried out during the war?
20 A. Of course.
21 Q. But it more or less remained as it did?
22 A. Yes, it did.
23 Q. How did you get information? Could you
24 please tell us whether there were any visual observers?
25 A. Yes. We formed visual observers in the
1 neighbouring villages, because our centre, one of its
2 duties, among others, was to alert the population, and
3 with the escalation of the aggression against Croatia
4 and Slovenia, there was a need to place visual
5 observers because we were afraid of air attacks on
6 Vitez. We mainly used people from the neighbouring
7 villages, so the local population, because we couldn't
8 pay them or compensate them in any other way, so they
9 worked on volunteer basis. They were those who would
10 generally give us information, mostly by telephone, and
11 sometimes they would send messengers, depending on the
13 Q. So you had this intelligence centre. Were
14 you close to the Crisis Staff, and who was in the
15 Crisis Staff?
16 A. Before the 16th, before the combat activities
17 began, we were buildings next to each other, so the
18 centre for intelligence was located in the cellar of
19 the post office, and this is what was the situation
20 before and it still is the situation. The Crisis Staff
21 was in the municipal building that was next door. Then
22 at the beginning the Crisis Staff moved close to us.
23 It also went to a separate room in the cellar of the
24 post office.
25 Q. So did you have all the information available
1 at the centre or did the Crisis Staff have some
2 information that you didn't have?
3 A. No, we didn't have all the information. We
4 mostly received and distributed mail. However, this
5 mail would often bypass us and would go where it was
6 supposed to directly, so --
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, may I
8 just take a second. There is a problem with the
9 translation. We don't want this whole testimony to go
10 in a wrong direction, because it would lose meaning.
11 Mr. Stojak worked in the centre for information. It's
12 not intelligence, intelligence centre. It's a centre
13 to provide information of what is going on so to --
14 it's like an alarm system in case of need, to alarm the
15 population of what's going on. In war and peace this
16 centre operates. So its purpose is not to gather
17 intelligence, but to provide information about what is
18 going on. So the translation is wrong.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
20 MR. SUSAK:
21 Q. So now we will be more specific. You said
22 that this centre -- did it also deal with other kind of
23 events, because you said information in case of
24 something. So would you please tell us what this
25 something is?
1 A. Well, I said, amongst other duties -- maybe
2 to clarify to this Trial Chamber. This centre for
3 information, 985, is like the centre 911, the emergency
4 number. It's connected to the hospital. So it's used
5 to convey information to certain institutions,
6 depending on what the situation called for.
7 Q. So now I will ask you. You are talking about
8 this centre. You said that nothing had changed. Did
9 the centre carry out the same duties before the war and
10 after the war?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Because you are closely connected
13 to the defence office, do you know what the purpose of
14 the defence office was?
15 A. Before the war or after the war?
16 Q. Before the war and after the war.
17 A. The defence --
18 Q. Well, before the conflict and after the
20 A. The defence office, in the earlier system,
21 usually maintained records of military conscripts, it
22 sent the conscripts to serve their military duty in the
23 then JNA, but with the aggression against Croatia, all
24 of this was suspended, so the office did not carry out
25 these duties anymore. It maintained records, purely
1 the paperwork that is appropriate to such an office,
2 and then new developments occurred. So as part of
3 the --
4 Q. Mr. Stojak, would you please speak more
5 slowly because this has to be interpreted?
6 A. The component of that office was us, the
7 centre for information, and then the sector for
8 civilian defence, that was a sector of the civil
9 defence department, and then in the times of war, this
10 service would really take care of the disabled, would
11 help children, it would distribute aid and food to
12 these needy categories of people.
13 Q. Do you know when mobilisation was carried out
14 in Vitez?
15 A. Mobilisation in Vitez began on the 16th of
16 April in 1993, sometime in the second part of that day,
18 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I would ask the
19 usher to show the witness a Prosecution document 335.
20 Q. If you've had a look at it ...
21 If you had a look at it, Mr. Stojak, we would
22 like to concentrate on this written report first and
23 foremost. What does it mean that the defence
24 department, in addition to its regular work, has also
25 established the Vitez Brigade and a working group has
1 been set up together with other people from the defence
3 A. I said a few minutes ago that from earlier
4 on, we had those records, those lists of conscripts.
5 It was only natural, in terms of military hierarchy,
6 that the defence department, together with someone from
7 the brigade headquarters, would call up conscripts in a
8 case of war, immediate threat of war, or other such
10 Q. Now we're going to see point 3. What does
11 that mean, "from the 16th of April up to and including
12 28th April, 1993, a total of 498 conscripts were
13 mobilised and actively included in HVO units, in
14 addition to the regular personnel of the Viteska
16 First of all, may I remind you of the
17 following: Is it possible for 498 conscripts to be
18 mobilised in a single day?
19 A. I said a few minutes ago that mobilisation
20 started on the 16th of April, sometime during the
21 latter part of the day, that is to say that there was
22 still commotion at this initial stage of the war. Four
23 hundred ninety-eight is a viable figure but only on
24 paper, only in terms of records. People were
25 registered in this war situation. So in terms of
1 paper, this was done, but I don't think in practical
2 terms, 498 conscripts could have actually been
3 mobilised, I mean actually taken to trenches or into
4 battle or whatever, because -- there would be an
5 example of this in these lists. I know quite a few of
6 these people, and if I were to look at these lists very
7 carefully, I could certainly find even more examples,
8 but I know some of these people. Obviously, for
9 example, numbers 85 and 86. It is mentioned here that
10 Vojvodic Miro and Vojvodic Zoran were mobilised. Those
11 are two brothers. But it is well-known that they
12 worked as translators for the U.N. then. Nowadays, it
13 is called IFOR.
14 Q. Could they have been mobilised if they worked
15 for UNPROFOR?
16 A. Who could have informed them at UNPROFOR and
17 who could have got them out of UNPROFOR? Ordinary
18 people, people from the defence department, et cetera,
19 I mean, who could have gone into the UNPROFOR camp?
20 Q. So nobody had access to the UNPROFOR camp and
21 there was no cooperation in this respect; is that
23 A. No, no. Only high officers could enter
24 UNPROFOR premises, but this was much later.
25 And also I have the example of Dragan
2 Q. Which number is that?
3 A. Just a minute. Just let me have a look at
4 it. Two hundred twenty-six.
5 Q. What did you want to say about Pavlovic?
6 A. This gentleman was the director of a company
7 in Vitez, and he was away on business in the Republic
8 of Croatia, in Ploca, and he spent the entire war
9 there, so he didn't even show up in Vitez.
10 Q. So how could he have been mobilised?
11 A. Because mobilisation as such means that,
12 first and foremost, all of this has to be done on
13 paper, and then the relevant team goes out and
14 distributes call-up papers to all the persons who are
15 supposed to be mobilised. There are probably other
16 examples of this nature, but we don't have enough time,
17 I imagine, to go into an in-depth analysis right now.
18 Q. Could you establish that some person from
19 this list was mobilised after the 16th of April, 1993?
20 A. Well, probably. Probably most of these men
21 were because the mobilisation started in the latter
22 half of the day.
23 Q. This period is the 16th of April until the
24 28th of April inclusive; that's what this paper says.
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. So it's not possible practically to do this
2 in one day?
3 A. No, practically, it is not possible to do
4 this in one day.
5 Q. Since you have a degree in national defence;
6 is that correct --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- so what does that mean, that most of these
9 conscripts were involved in frontline activities from
10 the very first day?
11 A. Where is this?
12 Q. This is under point 3 on the first page of
13 this report.
14 A. That means that these 498 conscripts were
15 directly involved in HVO units. However, during a
16 military conflict, it is only natural that the people
17 from the Viteska Brigade would take the first attack;
18 and then, as mobilisation proceeded, then they received
19 additional manpower as listed here.
20 Q. So you think that these reserve units could
21 not have taken part in the first repulsion or the first
23 A. They couldn't have.
24 Q. You also have another sentence down here that
25 the mobilised persons are being used as replacements on
1 the lines after the first assault. How long can this
2 go on, for several days or not? These replacements, I
4 A. Well, at any rate, it is the regular units
5 that take the first attack. However, as ranks are
6 stabilised, then replacements come in, and this can go
7 on until an official document says the mobilisation is
8 over. However, mobilisation could not have been over
9 throughout combat activities because additional
10 personnel were needed all the time and also additional
12 Q. Could you please explain what mobilisation
13 means, in your opinion, or can you explain what
14 mobilisation along automatic lines means, or what does
15 it mean in military terminology?
16 A. In military terminology, mobilisation along
17 automatic lines means that there were certain records
18 that, in some office, there were files on individual
19 persons, and as soon as mobilisation is declared,
20 people are taken from these records automatically and a
21 list is being made of the persons who would be
23 Then a list is made of persons who should be
24 mobilised during a certain period of time, not only --
25 Q. Please slow down.
1 A. But also all the logistics needed are listed
2 too, that is to say, vehicles, fuel, whatever is
4 Q. In Vitez, there were quite a few Muslims and
5 Serbs and others who were military conscripts. Did
6 this make it increasingly difficult to make up lists
7 and to receive information as to who the military-age
8 men actually were?
9 A. Well, at any rate, this was difficult because
10 there could have been a man who was a Serb, for
11 example, on this list, because at that time, there was
12 pronounced migration. Serbs, for example, moved to
13 some other areas, and very often they would simply
14 leave without saying good-bye or without reporting to
15 anyone. Since these records existed from earlier on,
16 it is only logical that this person could have been in
17 these records and on these lists, and when these things
18 are done automatically, his file could have been found
19 too and his name could have been on the list for
20 mobilisation. However, the man would not even be there
21 in that area.
22 Q. Were there any Croats from Vitez who waged
23 war in other territories in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes, certainly.
25 Q. Were such persons deleted from the files of
1 the defence department of Vitez?
2 A. They were not, more or less, deleted from
3 these records of the defence department. Those who
4 were diligent enough to report to this department
5 simply had it registered there, that they had changed
6 their place of residence or that they were engaged in
7 battle elsewhere. Often this was not the case. They
8 would simply go. They would go to a battlefield of
9 their own free will. Voluntarily, I mean.
10 Q. As far as I could understand what you were
11 saying, you could not have up-to-date records; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is this perhaps due to the fact that many
15 people who were military-age men were in villages too?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So that was one of the reasons too; right?
18 A. Yes. Very often, in these post-war days,
19 people were trying to find jobs and a better living
20 elsewhere, and they went elsewhere, they went to other
21 frontlines voluntarily. But in most cases, they did
22 not realise that they were supposed to report to the
23 police, the defence department, and the municipality,
24 wherever, they would simply leave. That made it more
25 difficult for the persons employed in the defence
1 department. They could not have known where somebody
2 was at a given point in time had somebody not reported
3 to them.
4 Q. Now I would like to move on to another
5 question of a similar nature, and that is civil
7 Could you please tell us how it operated and
8 how it was organised before the 16th of April, 1993,
9 and what happened to the civil defence afterwards?
10 A. Civil defence was part of the defence
11 department, it was a segment of the defence
12 department. I said a few minutes ago that it primarily
13 dealt with providing accommodation and care for the
14 needy, for the famished. Very often during the war
15 they also tried to provide accommodation for refugees
16 from other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they
17 distributed food to these people too, to the extent to
18 which this was necessary. For that purpose, they
19 established some kind of a mini-staff of their own of
20 the civil defence where they had their representatives
21 on the ground; that is to say, in different parts of
22 Vitez, in villages, so that these activities could be
23 carried out as quickly as possible and in the best
24 possible way.
25 So, for example, food was to be distributed
1 in Kruscica. Then they would call their representative
2 there and then they would make arrangements for such
3 and such a date for food to be distributed in front of
4 such and such a person's house according to a list that
5 was provided by one of the representatives of the civil
7 When war operations started or, rather, when
8 the aggression took place in our parts, it became
9 necessary to establish within the civil defence teams
10 of persons for --
11 Q. I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt you at this
12 point, Mr. Stojak, because I want to put a question to
13 you and to remind you of something.
14 Was any decision reached on the 16th or 17th
15 of April, 1993, by the head of staff of the civilian
16 defence; do you know about that?
17 A. Yes. In keeping with the orders issued by
18 the head of the staff of civil defence, and I imagine
19 that he had received orders from the head of the crisis
20 staff of the municipality of Vitez, I imagine that he
21 gave him the green light to set up this team for
22 improvements, and I think that this team was
23 established sometime on the 17th of April; that is to
24 say, on the second day of the war, because there were
25 so many persons who were killed.
1 Q. You mentioned the head of the crisis staff.
2 Who is this person in the case of the municipality of
4 A. At that time, it was the legally elected
5 mayor of the town of Vitez, Mr. Ivan Santic.
6 Q. So does this office coincide with that of the
7 head of the crisis staff? Is that to say that the
8 mayor and the head of the crisis staff are one and the
9 same person?
10 A. Yes, yes. These two offices coincide. This
11 is also done automatically.
12 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I believe that
13 this would be a good point to adjourn because we have
14 quite a few questions left, and I imagine our time is
15 up. Of course, it is up to the Trial Chamber to rule
16 on that.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you have a rough idea of
18 how much time you still need?
19 MR. SUSAK: Less than an hour, around an
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Do we know how many Defence
22 counsel intend to cross-examine this witness? Of
23 course, you may react -- you don't know yet. Yes.
24 Because, as I say, we must by all means finish tomorrow
25 with this witness and the other witness as well.
1 Let me, before we adjourn, first of all,
2 remind the Prosecutor that tomorrow he should not only
3 give us some information about the document mentioned
4 before by Counsel Susak but also about the expert
5 witness statements.
6 Also, I would like to let you know about our
7 plans for the timetable for the months of April and
8 May. Since this Trial Chamber will -- or some members
9 of this Trial Chamber will be sitting on other cases,
10 in April we will be sitting on Kupreskic only the last
11 week of April, starting on the 26th, only one week;
12 then in May, the first week of May and last week of
13 May, the week starting on the 3rd up to the 7th and
14 then from the 24th to the 28th, just for your
15 information, because we assume you have to make plans.
16 We have now been told about the planning for other
17 cases, and so I thought it only appropriate to let you
18 know in advance.
19 So we are adjourned now until tomorrow at
20 9.00 sharp.
21 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
22 6.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
23 the 29th day of January, 1999, at
24 9.00 a.m.