1. Thursday, 28th January, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 1.32 p.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your

    6 Honours. Case number IT-95-16-T. The Prosector versus

    7 Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic,

    8 Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. We may

    10 continue. Mr. Radovic. Counsel Radovic.

    11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    12 WITNESS: JADRANKA TOLIC (Resumed)

    13 Examined by Mr. Radovic:

    14 Q. Good day. I don't have too many questions

    15 for you. Please tell me, in Zenica, what was the

    16 situation regarding receiving of information? Who did

    17 you get the information from about the events in Zenica

    18 in the region of Central Bosnia?

    19 A. I got a lot of of information from the people

    20 who were wounded, who were in the hospital in Cajdras,

    21 also from the villagers in my village who I lived with.

    22 Q. What about the media?

    23 A. The media, yes, through newspapers,

    24 television.

    25 Q. Did you buy newspapers at that time?



  2. 1 A. Yes, of course.

    2 Q. Which ones?

    3 A. Well, which ones did we have? I can't recall

    4 right now.

    5 Q. Yes. But you know that already at that

    6 time --

    7 A. Just one moment. We had the Croatian press,

    8 Obitelj, something like that. Mr. Hammer was in

    9 charge.

    10 Q. But this was not a newspaper that dealt with

    11 political issues. Did you have any kind of daily

    12 newspaper that reported about politics?

    13 A. I don't recall.

    14 Q. Did you read any newspapers at the time?

    15 A. Mostly I got information from what people

    16 told me.

    17 Q. So according to what people told you, from

    18 what you heard, did you hear what was happening in the

    19 region of Vitez from the 16th of April onwards?

    20 A. From the 16th of April, well, I didn't read

    21 about anything in the paper.

    22 Q. So you didn't really hear anything. Did you

    23 hear anything from your patients, perhaps?

    24 A. From my patients? You mean from the 16th of

    25 of April?



  3. 1 Q. Yes, the events in Vitez from April 16th.

    2 Was the 16th of April significant to you in Zenica for

    3 any reason?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Did you watch television?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Did you have your own TV set at home?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Which TV stations could you receive at that

    10 time?

    11 A. Only the ones that were in Zenica.

    12 Q. So this was Zetel?

    13 A. Yes, Zetel. And TVBH. This is Sarajevo

    14 television.

    15 Q. So did you watch the news on those TV

    16 stations every day?

    17 A. No, not every day.

    18 Q. Did you see in any news programme, any TV

    19 programme? I assume that the news were on at 7.30

    20 every evening just like they were in all the other

    21 areas of the former Yugoslavia?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. So was there anything that related to Vitez?

    24 A. No, not about Vitez, but I remember now that

    25 on TV in Zenica the -- they showed on Zenica TV the



  4. 1 foundation, the establishment of something in Zenica.

    2 And that is the first time I heard about Mr. Mario

    3 Kordic.

    4 Q. Did you see any refugees from Vitez on

    5 television?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Did you see, maybe, any people who were

    8 recorded in the hospital in Zenica who were saying what

    9 they experienced in a village near Zenica called

    10 Ahmici, near Vitez called Ahmici?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. You said that in the Croatian areas homes

    13 were usually torched after the Croats were expelled.

    14 Did I understand you right?

    15 A. Yes. The houses were torched after the

    16 Croats were expelled, but this happened on the 18th of

    17 April.

    18 Q. Okay. So now we see that you don't know

    19 anything about the 16th. So now we're going to talk

    20 about the conduct of Muslim forces after they captured

    21 Croatian villages. What happened with the Croatian

    22 churches after the Muslims captured a Croatian village?

    23 A. Well, they would shoot at the churches. The

    24 church in Cajdras is full of bullet holes. The priest

    25 and two nuns were abused in Cakrcici.



  5. 1 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further

    2 questions.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any

    4 cross-examination by other counsel?

    5 Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac. Yes

    6 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac.

    7 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. Good day,

    8 Mrs. Tolic. You spoke about the situation in Zenica on

    9 the 15th of April, '93, after the murder of the escort

    10 and the capture of Zivko Totic. You also said there

    11 were problems in moving through the town.

    12 A. Yes. I know this very well because that

    13 morning I was going to work, to the hospital in

    14 Cajdras. This is on the other side of the town from

    15 where I was living. I was living in Podbrezje. I went

    16 to work on foot and I could hear shooting earlier. I

    17 saw a car and I saw my late cousin there. I couldn't

    18 go further from that point. They turned me back. And

    19 then I reported to the headquarters of the HVO. They

    20 were consulting by phone with Cajdras, and they said,

    21 because my work colleagues already knew that it was

    22 difficult to move around the town, so they said that

    23 they would send an ambulance to get me, because I had

    24 to go there, get some medical equipment and come back

    25 to the headquarters, because I lived in Podbrezje, the



  6. 1 command is 500 to 800 metres away from my house, less

    2 than a kilometre. I don't exactly know. Because they

    3 wanted -- because of the events that were taking place

    4 there, they wanted someone, a medical officer, to be in

    5 the command. And because I lived there, they asked me

    6 to come.

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the

    8 interpreters.

    9 Q. So you got there with an ambulance?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. You said checkpoints were placed around the

    12 town.

    13 A. Yes. I noticed this when I was leaving

    14 Podbrezje, when I was going from Trokuce to Cajdras

    15 there were police patrols and they had been increased

    16 compared to the previous days.

    17 Q. The people who were at those checkpoints,

    18 were these members of the BiH Army or was this the

    19 police?

    20 A. It was the civilian police in dark uniforms,

    21 and there were also camouflage uniforms with black

    22 vests on top.

    23 Q. Do you remember whether they had --

    24 A. They were completely armed. I don't know

    25 what you mean if they were completely armed. I know



  7. 1 that they had pistols, they had batons in their hands.

    2 I'm not sure whether they had any guns. I didn't see

    3 that. I'm not sure.

    4 Q. Did you notice at the entrance and exits to

    5 Zenica if there were any checkpoints there, any control

    6 points?

    7 A. Well, I went to Cajdras and I must have

    8 encountered from the Travnik Street to Cajdras two of

    9 them. This was not usual. There were some in the

    10 centre of the city, close to the faculty of metallurgy

    11 in Zenica.

    12 Q. You also said in your testimony that in

    13 January of '93 you noticed men, people, from Busovaca,

    14 Muslims from Busovaca in Zenica, that they came by bus,

    15 if I understood you properly.

    16 A. No not by bus. Because my apartment was at

    17 the entrance to Zenica, it was four high-rise houses,

    18 so I lived in the first one of those buildings, close

    19 to the bridge, but I wasn't there all the time. I

    20 spent some time in my house in Podbrezje. But I would

    21 come and visit my apartment sometimes. So going from

    22 the apartment towards Podbrezje, this was the road

    23 going just below the house of corrections, and there's

    24 an army, a hold there. So I could see a truck standing

    25 by the road. I could also see an orange mini-van, but



  8. 1 civilians were coming out of this truck, which was

    2 covered with tarpaulin. Women and children were coming

    3 out of it.

    4 Q. Do you recall whether this was before the

    5 conflict in Busovaca or after? You said that you were

    6 surprised when you saw them; is that right?

    7 A. Yes, I was surprised, because I thought these

    8 were refugees from somewhere, and I stopped there

    9 because I always felt sorry for people who came from

    10 Gorazde, Potkozarje or wherever they would arrive from

    11 to Zenica. But there were a lot of refugees at that

    12 time. The department store, big buildings, were

    13 already occupied by refugees, so when I saw these women

    14 and children, I was -- I felt sorry for them and I

    15 asked them. So they said they were from Busovaca. And

    16 I was surprised, because I didn't know that anything

    17 was happening there.

    18 Q. All right. Also in your statement you said

    19 that you had heard that the HVO was being disarmed.

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Now we are talking about the 16th and the

    22 17th of April of '93?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Who did you hear this from and how was this

    25 carried out?



  9. 1 A. I heard this after the 20th. On the 20th I

    2 left the house of correction of Zenica. I was at

    3 home. My friends were visiting me, who were living

    4 nearby. And then I heard this from them, because my

    5 brother-in-law, my husband's brother, was living close

    6 by. He wasn't a member of the HVO. He was a civilian

    7 in the house of correction. His wife, my

    8 sister-in-law, came as soon as I was released. And she

    9 heard, because she lives in Radakovo.

    10 I was also visited by other friends. She

    11 told me that on the 16th and the 17th they had already

    12 been disarmed there, on the right side of the bank of

    13 the River Bosna in the region of Cekrcici. That's

    14 where HOS was, but not all Croat members of HOS, but of

    15 the HVO. So I think in Drada Kovor, somewhere there,

    16 they had a kind of branch, the head coordinators in all

    17 regions. Because Croats were all over the place. So I

    18 heard that already on the 16th or the 17th they had

    19 been disarmed there, on the 17th, in the afternoon,

    20 that they had been surrounded -- that they had

    21 surrounded the HOS headquarters that was in the centre

    22 of the town, and I heard that some negotiations were

    23 being carried out for the members of the HOS to be

    24 released.

    25 Q. So that's when the weapons were taken away



  10. 1 from them?

    2 A. Yes. Some of them were also detained in the

    3 house of correction because when I arrived in my cell,

    4 there were already two women there who were members of

    5 HOS, they were Muslims, and I was in the cell together

    6 with them.

    7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Okay. Thank you very

    8 much.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel

    10 Slokovic-Glumac. I assume there is no other Defence

    11 counsel wishing to cross-examine this witness, so we

    12 move on to the Prosecution. Mr. Terrier?

    13 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour. I have

    14 only a few questions to put to the witness. I will be

    15 as concise as I can be.

    16 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    17 Q. Good morning, Madam. My name is

    18 Franck Terrier, I am a member of the Prosecution team,

    19 and it is my duty to put a number of questions to you.

    20 I hope it will be brief.

    21 Do you know the accused?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. You don't know any of them?

    24 A. None of them.

    25 Q. According to a document that was given to us



  11. 1 by the Defence, you actually reside in Mostar?

    2 A. Now I live in Mostar.

    3 Q. Are you a nurse today as you were at the time

    4 of the events?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. In 1992 and 1993, were you a member of the

    7 HDZ?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Were you in any other way engaged in serving

    10 the Croatian cause at the time?

    11 A. '92 and '93; is that what you're asking me?

    12 Q. Exactly.

    13 A. Yes. Yes. When I left my job in the

    14 hospital, I moved to work in the crisis staff which was

    15 located in the Sestra Dietrich school. That's where

    16 the medical unit was being organised. This was in June

    17 '92.

    18 Q. There is one thing I would like to

    19 understand. This duty you have just described to us,

    20 the aim of which was to help the injured, the ones who

    21 needed help, was also a political activity, wasn't it,

    22 because you were also defending the aim, that was the

    23 aim of the HVO?

    24 A. Well, I will say right away that I had

    25 nothing to do with politics.



  12. 1 Q. Did you know Commander Totic?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Could you please be a little more specific

    4 about the unit he was commander of?

    5 A. The military unit that he commanded in

    6 Zenica, I can only say about that that when he arrived,

    7 we expected a lot of him because we thought he was an

    8 expert, more expert than his predecessors at the crisis

    9 staff, that was Mr. Covic, his predecessor. I think he

    10 was very reliable. He was an honest man.

    11 Q. There is something else I would like to

    12 know. What was the composition of the unit he

    13 commanded? How many men constituted that unit, how was

    14 it armed, what kind of weapons did it use?

    15 A. I repeat again, I worked at the Sestre

    16 Dietrich school, and then when the commander came,

    17 Mr. Zivko Totic, we were transferred, and we worked in

    18 Cajdras, which means that I was not close to the

    19 headquarters or -- I can talk about the medical staff,

    20 how many were in our brigade, and it's possible that it

    21 numbered about 1.500 people. This is an approximate

    22 number.

    23 Q. One thousand five hundred people. In Zenica,

    24 that is; is that what you mean? One thousand five

    25 hundred people in that unit?



  13. 1 A. When he arrived at that time, there were no

    2 more than 1.500 people or so in the beginning. Then

    3 later, we had more Croats who joined us, the ones who

    4 were leaving the B and H army, and then at the end,

    5 just before the conflict around the 15th, some Croats

    6 from HOS also joined.

    7 Q. At the beginning of April 1993, what was this

    8 brigade made of; do you know? I'm not sure you know,

    9 but if you do know, could you be a little bit more

    10 specific?

    11 A. I don't know.

    12 Q. Thank you. This was the Jure Francetic

    13 Brigade, wasn't it?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Could you tell us why it was called that?

    16 A. Jure Francetic is an historical figure. He

    17 is famous by what he did, and we took him to be the

    18 protector of our brigade. We took his name because

    19 he's an historical person for the Croatian people.

    20 Q. Historical figure from when, approximately;

    21 could you tell us that?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. I see. You talked about the refugees who

    24 came to Zenica; there were many of them coming to that

    25 city. Do you have an idea of how many refugees came to



  14. 1 Zenica to seek refuge?

    2 A. I don't know the exact number, but I heard on

    3 the radio one evening that they were expecting refugees

    4 to come from all parts of Bosnia that were under the

    5 occupation of the aggressor, and that they were

    6 expecting about 50.000 refugees to arrive in the town

    7 of Zenica, but I don't know at that time exactly how

    8 many refugees there were.

    9 Q. If I'm not mistaken -- if I am mistaken,

    10 please help me -- but if I'm not mistaken, you said

    11 that you had talked with some of the refugees in

    12 Zenica, and you also told us that some of these

    13 refugees had explained what their situation was, what

    14 position they were in. What else could you tell us

    15 about that?

    16 A. I didn't talk much. The refugees that I

    17 would meet -- I don't know which period you are

    18 referring to -- well, the people from Busovaca, before

    19 the conflict broke out in Busovaca, I didn't talk to

    20 them really, I only asked them where they were from,

    21 but I talked with refugees before that who would come

    22 from Potkozarje who would ask for aid in food or

    23 clothing. That's as much as I would talk with them.

    24 Q. In Zenica, did you ever meet Muslim refugees

    25 who told you they had been expelled from Busovaca?



  15. 1 A. Muslim refugees? Yes. They were not

    2 expelled, no. I did not say that. This is what I

    3 said, that I saw women and children who were coming out

    4 of a truck that was covered with tarpaulin, and I asked

    5 them, "Where are you from?" And they said, "From

    6 Busovaca." I thought that they were refugees perhaps

    7 from Gorazde, Potkozarje, or wherever they were coming

    8 from at the time. That's what I thought. I thought

    9 that they were refugees. But I saw women and

    10 children. I just thought ...

    11 Q. But the people you met were Muslim women and

    12 children, and you were told they were coming from

    13 Busovaca; isn't that right?

    14 A. Yes, women and children who were coming from

    15 Busovaca.

    16 Q. Without using the word "expelled" then, have

    17 you ever learned for what reason these people who were

    18 living in Busovaca had become refugees?

    19 A. I said that I was surprised when I had heard

    20 that they were from Busovaca because I didn't know the

    21 reason why they were here. The conflict, meaning the

    22 attack on Busovaca, came later, and I don't know how I

    23 can -- how free I can be to say, but these civilians

    24 were their people. These people had moved their

    25 families. Perhaps they had known that there would be



  16. 1 an attack on Busovaca so that perhaps they moved their

    2 families away.

    3 Q. Could you be a little more specific maybe?

    4 According to you, who took that decision, to transfer

    5 some families to Zenica?

    6 A. This is just an assumption that I am making

    7 because the conflict broke out later, the BH army

    8 attacked the region of Busovaca, so it's an assumption

    9 that I am making that women and children were taken out

    10 of Busovaca before the attack.

    11 Q. If I understand you well, you assumed or you

    12 are assuming that the Muslims themselves decided to

    13 make refugees out of the members of their family in

    14 order to protect them; they decided to send them away?

    15 A. I think that members of the BH army or the

    16 husbands of those families moved their women and

    17 children out to a safe area, to Zenica, because they

    18 had known that they will attack Busovaca.

    19 Q. So I did understand you well. You also told

    20 us about the persecution of which Croatian people in

    21 Zenica were victims at the end of 1992 and at the

    22 beginning of 1993. I listened carefully to what you

    23 were saying yesterday, but I would like to know if you

    24 received any information about what happened between

    25 January 20th and January 27th in Merdani, in Kacuni, in



  17. 1 Strane and in Ocenici?

    2 A. On the 25th and on the 26th --

    3 Q. Between the 20th and the 27th of January.

    4 A. January?

    5 Q. Yes, January of 1993.

    6 A. Tell me the exact area, please.

    7 Q. In Merdani, in Kacuni, in Strane, in Ocenici?

    8 A. No. No, I did not know what was going on

    9 there.

    10 Q. So you never heard anybody say that at that

    11 time in these villages the Muslim civilians were

    12 arrested en masse and sent to Kaonik prison?

    13 A. I did not know that. I only new about it a

    14 bit later, perhaps in February, that the BH army, on

    15 the 26th, attacked Busovaca.

    16 Q. Do you know what life was like for Muslim

    17 civilians living in Busovaca at the time?

    18 A. I don't know. I don't know what situation

    19 they lived in because I lived in Zenica.

    20 Q. You never heard journalists say, for example,

    21 or a TV channel say, or a radio broadcast say, or a

    22 soldier say, you never heard anybody say anything about

    23 what life was like for Muslim civilians in Busovaca,

    24 you never heard anybody say anything about whether they

    25 were free to move around, for example, were they able



  18. 1 to exercise their job freely? Do you know if they were

    2 protected physically from any threat?

    3 A. I shall say now that in January 1992 I worked

    4 in the hospital, I was doing my own job, and I realised

    5 that something was going on in Busovaca. Sadzida

    6 Kubat, my engineer, told me this. She kept provoking

    7 me all the time, by the way. She was the person who

    8 kept asking me to come into her office, and I heard

    9 about it from her. Obviously, she was very

    10 well-informed, and I heard from her that people did not

    11 have freedom of movement or whatever, but I didn't know

    12 that. I heard about it from her, and I had the feeling

    13 that she was provoking me a great deal because I was a

    14 Croat and she had already heard something about that.

    15 I didn't hear about it from anyone else but from her.

    16 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, at this stage, I

    17 would like to, if you allow me to do so, I would like

    18 to refer the witness to a report that was written by

    19 Mr. McLeod, who was an investigator for the ECMM.

    20 Mr. McLeod, on May 9th, 1993, met the imam of

    21 Busovaca. This investigator, who worked for the ECMM,

    22 later on wrote a report dated May 17th, 1993. In that

    23 report, he gives detailed information about all the

    24 meetings he had, and he gives a lot of details about

    25 everything that went on in Vitez and Busovaca, among



  19. 1 other towns, in 1993. At this stage, I would like to

    2 refer to one of these reports. I think it is a

    3 reasonable thing for me to ask that some of these

    4 reports be admitted in evidence. One copy of these

    5 reports has been handed over to the Defence counsel, of

    6 course, but I would like to use part of one of these

    7 reports as part of my cross-examination.

    8 Would you allow me to refer to these

    9 documents?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, when did you

    11 give these documents to the Defence counsel?

    12 MR. TERRIER: At the beginning of the

    13 hearing.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Five minutes before it began,

    15 I think. This is what Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac is saying.

    16 Did you give them all of these reports?

    17 MR. TERRIER: Yes, all of these reports. But

    18 I am only going to use a page and a half of a

    19 particular report. Can I do so?

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Our ruling is a majority

    21 ruling, and the Presiding Judge dissenting. We have

    22 decided that you are not entitled to produce in court

    23 this document because this might jeopardise the rights

    24 of the Defence since you have not provided this report

    25 in advance to the Defence, at least giving them the



  20. 1 opportunity to closely examine that document. However,

    2 you might call Mr. McLeod, he is the author of this

    3 report, in rebuttal. If you feel that this is

    4 important evidence, an important piece of evidence, you

    5 could call him as a rebuttal witness.

    6 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour. I will

    7 then go on to another series of questions.

    8 Q. Let's go on to what happened on April 15th,

    9 1993, Madam. On that particular day, Commander Zivko

    10 Totic was abducted, and you also told us that you had

    11 seen the place where this abduction had taken place on

    12 that very morning, on the morning of the 15th; is that

    13 right?

    14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness,

    15 please.

    16 A. On the 15th of April in the morning, I was at

    17 the very site.

    18 Q. Do you know if an inquiry was launched, the

    19 aim of which was to know who had abducted Commander

    20 Totic, in order to know in what circumstances it had

    21 taken place and, of course, this inquiry also aimed to

    22 know why the five people who escorted Commander Totic

    23 had been killed?

    24 A. I cannot know whether an investigation took

    25 place or not. I can only know what I saw for myself as



  21. 1 I passed there. The crime investigation service of the

    2 civilian police force of Zenica was there, and no one

    3 was allowed to pass that way, and I can only tell you

    4 what I saw there. I don't know what happened

    5 afterwards, but when I went back to headquarters and

    6 during the following three days, 15th, 16th, and 17th,

    7 we only received information at headquarters that they

    8 are negotiating for the unconditional release of Zivko

    9 Totic.

    10 Q. So you went to the HVO headquarters in Zenica

    11 and you spent most of the day of the 15th, of the 16th

    12 and of the 17th of April there; is that right?

    13 A. Yes. Yes. Most of the 15th I spent in

    14 Cajdras. I was driving around in an ambulance, 16th

    15 and the 17th, yes, and the morning of the 18th.

    16 Q. Could you please tell us how the HVO reacted

    17 on April the 15th, on April 16th, and on the following

    18 dates? What was the HVO's reaction to Commander

    19 Totic's abduction?

    20 A. Chaos prevailed at headquarters. No one

    21 talked about anything else. His youngest brother was

    22 there. He kept crying and he was walking about

    23 nervously. We tried to calm him down. We tried to

    24 pacify him, but everybody else was upset too. That was

    25 the only thing that people were talking about. They



  22. 1 were asking why this happened, how it happened. They

    2 were asking for his release. It was chaos. Chaos

    3 prevailed. People could not be peaceful. They could

    4 not talk calmly and normally. They were just moving

    5 around. It was like an ant hill. Chaos prevailed.

    6 Q. Were any measures taken by the HVO in Zenica

    7 in order to find out what had happened, how it had

    8 happened, to find out where Commander Totic had been

    9 taken to? Were any measures taken in order to free him

    10 or to find him?

    11 A. I can only say what I heard at headquarters

    12 from the brother of Zivko Totic. He asked for the

    13 unconditional release of his brother. He kept asking,

    14 "What have you done? When is my brother going to

    15 arrive?" And they said that they were on the telephone

    16 and that they would attend some kind of conference or

    17 whatever. But I don't know whether they actually did

    18 go or whether they did actually talk about it.

    19 Q. On April 15th, did you look at any television

    20 broadcast?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. During that same day, on the 15th of April,

    23 1993, you were in the HVO's headquarters in Zenica.

    24 Being there, did you gather any information on what the

    25 intentions of the BiH Army were?



  23. 1 A. No. No. I did not watch television. I was

    2 busy. I was in a particular room at headquarters all

    3 the time, and I tried to pacify the people who were

    4 there. That was my task there. I gave some people

    5 tranquillisers, other people I gave water and lemon,

    6 it's not important, but I did not watch television.

    7 Those three days I absolutely did not watch television.

    8 Q. You took care of people who were very tired.

    9 They were not physically injured, they were in a

    10 nervous state, weren't they?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Do you remember at all what happened during

    13 the night of the 15th to the 16th of April, 1993?

    14 A. 15th to the 16th, I remember nothing. I

    15 think that we were wondering about when the funeral of

    16 the people who were killed would take place. I cannot

    17 recall whether the funeral of my cousin and the other

    18 persons who were killed was on the 16th or the 17th. I

    19 cannot give an exact answer to that. I think it was

    20 the 17th. I think the funeral was on the 17th, but I

    21 really don't know anymore.

    22 On the evening of the 15th, I left

    23 headquarters, I went home to freshen up, and I came

    24 back already at 7.30 in the evening. I came back to

    25 headquarters.



  24. 1 Q. According to what you remember, was April

    2 16th similar to April 15th, in the sense that chaos

    3 reigned everywhere?

    4 A. That I do not know. I didn't go anywhere. I

    5 spent all the time at headquarters and my home was

    6 nearby. I would go home, freshen up a bit, and I would

    7 go back. I did not move around town. From the 15th

    8 onwards I did not go from there to the town of Zenica.

    9 Q. I understand, but at headquarters what was

    10 the atmosphere like? Was the atmosphere a bit calmer

    11 or was it still a very electrical atmosphere?

    12 A. The same. Chaos prevailed. Nothing changed

    13 until the 18th. This chaos continued. Very few people

    14 were coming in. Most of us who were there at

    15 headquarters simply stayed there. So I didn't really

    16 hear anything new. Already from the 15th onwards

    17 movement was made impossible.

    18 Q. Could the witness be shown Prosecution

    19 Exhibit 334. Exhibit number 334.

    20 A. I can hardly see it.

    21 Q. Are you able to read the name of the person

    22 who signed this document, Madam?

    23 A. Operative on duty of the Jure Francetic

    24 Brigade, Branislav Bosnijak.

    25 Q. Did you know that man?



  25. 1 A. I met that person only when I fled from

    2 Zenica to Busovaca through this humanitarian

    3 organisation. I did not know him before that.

    4 Q. Would you agree with me to say that this

    5 report was written by the officer on duty of the Jure

    6 Francetic Brigade on April 16th, 1993 at 6.00 in the

    7 morning? Would you agree with me to say that this

    8 report indicates that the man who signed it was quite

    9 happy with the situation which prevailed and, above

    10 all, a very calm man? There is no sign of nervousness,

    11 which doesn't lead us to think that, as you said, chaos

    12 prevailed at the time.

    13 A. I described the situation on the date of the

    14 15th, and I said that after that I did not move towards

    15 town, but other men were not coming to headquarters, so

    16 I thought that the situation was the same as it was on

    17 the 15th.

    18 Since you are aware of this, I should like to

    19 mention that from '92, perhaps until the end of the

    20 war, there was a curfew in Zenica, and what it says

    21 here is that unarmed civilians could pass and we knew

    22 at what time that was. But from the 15th onwards I did

    23 not move from that place. And then people from other

    24 parts of Zenica were not coming to headquarters, that

    25 is to say from Cajdras, Radakovo, Crkvica. The people



  26. 1 who were coming into headquarters until then, or who

    2 had work to do at headquarters, that is to say people

    3 who were staying there from the 15th onwards,

    4 practically spent all their time at headquarters.

    5 Q. I understand, but allow me to put the

    6 question to you again. When you read this report,

    7 don't you agree that contrary to what you said, on

    8 April 16th, 1993 at 6 a.m. in Zenica the HVO was fully

    9 in control of what was happening, it was fully

    10 effective, and the officer on duty, in spite of what

    11 had happened on April 15th, was very happy with the

    12 situation which prevailed, was quite confident with

    13 what was happening?

    14 A. I think that this document shows that there

    15 was no excessive behaviour any more, since these

    16 murders had already been committed, as well as the

    17 abduction. There weren't any attacks or abductions or

    18 any mistreatments as of the 15th. I think that that is

    19 what this pertains to. We did not have people visiting

    20 headquarters or that part of town from the BiH Army or

    21 the police.

    22 Q. A moment ago, while answering a question put

    23 to you by Mr. Radovic, in relation to the events which

    24 took place in Ahmici, you said, if I am not mistaken,

    25 that you had never heard anything about these events at



  27. 1 the time, that is. Am I right?

    2 A. Could you please clarify your question.

    3 Q. I'll put the question to you again, Madam.

    4 In April, 1993, were you at all informed about what had

    5 happened on April 16th, 1993 in Ahmici?

    6 A. In April, on the 16th, '93, no. I did not

    7 know what happened in Ahmici. I heard about Ahmici

    8 only when I arrived in Busovaca, and that was the end

    9 of April or, rather, the beginning of May, 1993.

    10 Q. When was it? Who was it? How was it that

    11 you came to learn about what had happened in Ahmici at

    12 the end of April or at the beginning of May, 1993?

    13 A. Yes. At that time I was already a refugee

    14 from Zenica. I arrived there and everybody was talking

    15 about Ahmici, my own people, the Croats whom I had

    16 cooperated with, my co-workers, as well as the people

    17 that I was staying with at a Croat home. Before that,

    18 in the period between the 16th and the 27th, I had not

    19 heard of Ahmici.

    20 Q. Could you please explain why all these people

    21 that you met in Busovaca, and I am in particular

    22 thinking of the Croats, why then they were talking so

    23 much about Ahmici? What was it about Ahmici that made

    24 it such a considerable event in their eyes?

    25 A. It certainly wasn't a significant event. We



  28. 1 heard about the crime that was committed there, and

    2 people were talking about it nonstop.

    3 Q. Madam, please try to help us. Why couldn't

    4 you stop talking about it?

    5 A. Please, I arrived in Busovaca. Before that I

    6 had not heard about these events. People were saying

    7 that it was bad there, that people were killed there.

    8 These were people that I had talked to or, rather, the

    9 people I had talked to condemned this. That I know.

    10 I know that many civilians were killed there and that

    11 is what people talked about.

    12 Q. Yesterday you told us that on April 18th you

    13 had been arrested. You were taken into custody until

    14 April 20th. According to the documents submitted by

    15 Mr. Susak, it seems that you were arrested legally,

    16 that is at least what seems to have taken place. Do

    17 you agree? Was it a legal arrest which took place?

    18 A. I did not understand what you said. What is

    19 this seeming legitimacy that you mentioned?

    20 Q. We have seen a document, a document which

    21 refers to a certain number of laws, and a document

    22 which is signed by a representative of a particular

    23 authority. You have told us at length about these two

    24 days you spent in custody. Why? What was your aim?

    25 Did you want to complain about the conditions you had



  29. 1 to live in or were you aiming to complain about the

    2 authority which arrested you? Why did you talk at

    3 length about it?

    4 A. Those two days were crucial days in my life,

    5 and I don't think I've been very well since then at

    6 all. These two days left quite an imprint on my heart

    7 and my soul, and I shall never forget those two days

    8 for as long as I live.

    9 They brought me in from a civilian bus, or,

    10 rather, I was with a group of civilians and there were

    11 a few soldiers there who came subsequently, from the

    12 hills, and they put us altogether into a bus. They

    13 took the soldiers to the house of correction and they

    14 took the civilians along too. And then they took the

    15 civilians home.

    16 At the end, when all the men were taken out

    17 of the bus, they came to pick me up and they took me to

    18 the house of correction. They took me to some kind of

    19 entrance, I don't know, I hadn't entered the actual

    20 building yet. It was some kind of a reception. They

    21 called from this reception desk. I asked why did they

    22 bring me in; is there a warden, a director, whoever

    23 there. "I want to ask him why I am there." They took

    24 me away.

    25 It was 11.30 p.m. when we saw the warden of



  30. 1 the prison in the park of the house of correction. I

    2 asked him, very kindly, to explain to me why I was

    3 there. He said that he didn't know. He was making fun

    4 of me. Then I told him to take me to someone who knew,

    5 because I knew of my rights. I studied this in

    6 secondary school. I realised that according to the

    7 Geneva Conventions I was not supposed to be taken into

    8 custody because I was medical staff, I was a nurse,

    9 after all. When they put me in the cell, I did not

    10 receive any papers whatsoever.

    11 Two days after that, when they released me,

    12 they gave me both of those two papers together. What

    13 was important for me was to go home to my children.

    14 They asked me for these papers. Rather, it was only

    15 the gentleman from UNPROFOR who asked me for those two

    16 papers, and they gave them to the police in Busovaca.

    17 It is only then that I realised what Article 119 or

    18 whatever meant on those papers. And that is when I

    19 found that out.

    20 I didn't know about it before that.

    21 Q. Were you mistreated during that period you

    22 spent in custody?

    23 A. I wasn't physically mistreated. I was taken

    24 for questioning two or three times within those two

    25 days, which means on Monday I was there in the morning



  31. 1 and in the afternoon. In the afternoon I was there

    2 from 6.00 to 9.00. In the morning they also took me

    3 away, and then shortly after that I heard that I was to

    4 be released.

    5 Q. Madam, do you know that at the same time,

    6 from April 16th to the 1st of May, about 50 women and

    7 children whose parents, fathers, cousins, uncles had

    8 been massacred in Ahmici were put into custody in the

    9 Dubravica school, and that was not a legal arrest at

    10 all, because there was no legally registered document

    11 which was signed to justify their detention?

    12 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I repeat again, from the 16th

    13 to the 20th, I didn't know what was happening around

    14 me, not even in my own town, never mind outside of it.

    15 When I left the house of correction, even then I didn't

    16 hear anything that was going on around me. It was

    17 important to me just to leave Zenica, and I believed

    18 the people, that they would send somebody to collect

    19 me. And they said, "Be patient. Don't worry, we will

    20 send UNPROFOR to fetch you." So until then I didn't

    21 have any idea what was going on. I was out of my

    22 mind. I don't even know exactly when I was taken from

    23 Zenica to Busovaca.

    24 The people who brought me in front of the

    25 police station in Busovaca knew that I had no idea what



  32. 1 was going on. I even left my bag there where all my

    2 documents were. I really was out of my mind. I was

    3 only thinking about myself and nobody else.

    4 Q. Is it for this particular reason also that

    5 yesterday you did not mention the shelling of Zenica

    6 which took place on April 19th, 1993? I think this is

    7 a considerable and significant event, don't you?

    8 A. I was in the house of correction, and I

    9 heard -- whether this was shelling or -- I heard

    10 shooting, explosions. I was afraid for my life at that

    11 time also. In the house of correction, they also

    12 played the news for us, and we knew that there was

    13 shooting in the town of Zenica.

    14 Q. You were afraid for your life, Madam, but all

    15 the victims were Muslims. There were about 15 dead

    16 people, there were about 30 injured people. This is

    17 what took place on April 19th, 1993, in Zenica. Do you

    18 know that the inquiry showed that the shelling came

    19 from the Vitez area? Do you know that these shells had

    20 been sent by a rocket launcher belonging to the HVO?

    21 A. I didn't know about that. I know nothing

    22 about that. I only know that in that place, I heard

    23 that not only Muslims were killed there, there were

    24 others too.

    25 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Madam. I have no



  33. 1 further questions for the witness, Your Honour.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier.

    3 Counsel Susak?

    4 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.

    5 Re-examined by Mr. Susak:

    6 Q. You mentioned Cajdras a little earlier on.

    7 This is where the headquarters were, and there were a

    8 lot of civilians there as well. I am thinking about

    9 the 18th of April, 1993.

    10 A. The 18th of April, 1993, after the withdrawal

    11 from Trokuce, we went towards Podbrezje, towards

    12 Calici, we arrived in Zmajevac, and then we arrived in

    13 Cajdras. All people who were in the command arrived

    14 there, so the army, members who were in the command as

    15 well the civilians from those settlements that we

    16 passed through, they went with us, but many people in

    17 the village had heard shooting and they didn't know

    18 what was going on. They hid in the cellars of their

    19 homes. And then they were used as human shields for

    20 the Mujahedin later. They were tied, those people who

    21 didn't follow the army, who remained in the village.

    22 Q. Do you know that a group of civilians went

    23 towards Kuber or at the foot of the Kuber towards

    24 Vitez?

    25 A. No.



  34. 1 Q. You told the Prosecutor just now that as a

    2 nurse, you were providing treatment in the health

    3 clinic to people who had nervous problems, so we took

    4 that you were a psychiatrist. So as a nurse, you were

    5 actually giving medical assistance in cases where

    6 people were physically injured?

    7 A. I am not a psychiatrist, but I had some

    8 Apaurine drugs in my pocket so people who were under

    9 stress, who were nervous because of what was happening,

    10 I was offering those tranquillisers so that they would

    11 calm down.

    12 Q. Did you provide medical treatment as well?

    13 Were there any injured?

    14 A. Of course, yes. This was my job. So from

    15 Podbrezje in the morning, I said they brought the first

    16 dead man to me. Then I had Marko Dujak who was wounded

    17 and we carried him all the way from the command, so

    18 maybe about 800 metres or one kilometre, we went by

    19 car; then we continued on foot through the hills and

    20 the forest until we arrived in Zmajevac. Then the

    21 wounded person was carried -- transported by car as far

    22 as the car could go, to the foot of Zmajevac, to the

    23 village of Grm, and then from there, they transported

    24 him to Cajdras. How, I don't know. I found all this

    25 out later. He was wounded. He was shot through the



  35. 1 lung.

    2 When I arrived to Cajdras, there were five

    3 less seriously wounded persons.

    4 Q. While you were detained, were you released

    5 before anybody else?

    6 A. Yes, I was released in two days. The others

    7 remained longer.

    8 Q. Could you please tell us the reasons, the

    9 real reasons, for this? Why were you released before

    10 everyone else, if you know this, of course?

    11 A. I think -- because when I left the house of

    12 correction, I was visited by Father Bozo Marketic from

    13 Cajdras. He asked me whether I was physically abused

    14 and also to talk with me. I said I wasn't mistreated

    15 physically. I asked whether they were making some kind

    16 of recommendation that I be released because I was the

    17 only woman who had been detained. He had said, "No,"

    18 they wanted to have everybody released

    19 unconditionally.

    20 The woman who was with me in the cell told me

    21 that the International Red Cross was supposed to tour

    22 the house of correction and that they would give me a

    23 toothbrush, toothpaste, and so on. I didn't wait for

    24 this because I was released before. I concluded later

    25 that I was released because they didn't want the



  36. 1 International Red Cross to see me because I was

    2 captured and detained while I was still wearing my

    3 white uniform.

    4 Q. You signed your detention order here. I can

    5 see your signature on the document. But there is no

    6 date. Also, this order on the release, there is no

    7 date either. You said that you got both orders only

    8 after you left the house of correction.

    9 A. Yes. This is correct. I did not receive any

    10 kind of document on my arrest. Only half an hour

    11 before I was released I was given some papers. They

    12 said, "Sign this. You're going home."

    13 Q. Do you know that when a document is signed in

    14 court that the date is more important than the

    15 signature?

    16 A. No, I don't know this.

    17 Q. Here, on the detention or the arrest decree,

    18 it only says that you have been detained. And then, on

    19 the release documents, it says that there are no more

    20 reasons for detention. Did anybody explain to you why

    21 you were detained?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Did anybody tell you or talk about the facts

    24 why you were detained because you answered the question

    25 by the Prosecution that you don't know what Article 119



  37. 1 is.

    2 A. Nobody explained anything. They kept

    3 examining me and questioning me. They kept asking for

    4 answers but nobody explained anything because I said at

    5 11.30 p.m., when they brought me to the house of

    6 correction, I wanted to meet the warden because I

    7 wanted to explain to him that I wasn't supposed to be

    8 there.

    9 Q. Have you any knowledge about the fact that

    10 the region under control of the BH army, they were

    11 concealing the illegal arrest and detention of people;

    12 do you know this?

    13 A. Could you please repeat the question?

    14 Q. The question is: Did the Muslim authorities

    15 conceal the arrest of Croats in the same way as they

    16 did in your case by issuing the documents once these

    17 people were released, and I'm talking about Croats?

    18 A. Well, if it happened to me, it probably

    19 happened to others.

    20 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no further

    21 questions, but I ask that these two documents be

    22 admitted into evidence, and I have five copies of each

    23 one. Thank you.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D9/4.



  38. 1 The next document is D10/4.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: No, because one has already

    3 been handed in. It was D8/4. So this one is D9/4.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: D9/4. So there is only one

    5 document D9/4.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: No, sorry. The one which was

    7 already provided to us yesterday is D8/4. So the

    8 second one ...

    9 THE REGISTRAR: Is D9/4.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Since there is no

    11 objection from the Prosecution, these two documents are

    12 admitted into evidence.

    13 There are no questions from the Court. I

    14 assume there is no objection to the witness being

    15 released.

    16 Mrs. Tolic, thank you for testifying in

    17 court. You may now be released. Thank you.

    18 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

    19 (The witness withdrew)

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you bring in your next

    21 witness, who is not a protected witness?

    22 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: So it is Mrs. Grubesic?

    24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. Grubesic.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Ljuban -- sorry. Mr.



  39. 1 Ljuban Grubesic. Yes. Called by yourself, Counsel

    2 Slokovic-Glumac, and Counsel Radovic.

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon,

    5 Mr. Grubesic. Could you please make the solemn

    6 declaration?

    7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    9 truth.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    11 seated.

    12 WITNESS: LJUBAN GRUBESIC

    13 Examined by Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac:

    14 Q. Good day, Mr. Grubesic. Could you please

    15 tell us where you were born, when, and where do you

    16 reside and what do you do now?

    17 A. My name is Ljuban Grubesic. I was born on

    18 the 24th of June, 1973, in Kiseljak. I reside in

    19 Oseliste. I'm a refugee from Busovaca, and I work in

    20 the Busovaca police administration.

    21 Q. In 1992, you were serving your military term

    22 in the JNA?

    23 A. Yes. I escaped at the end of February '92

    24 from there. I came home and, out of fear that the

    25 former JNA would look for me, I left the country. I



  40. 1 went to Austria.

    2 Q. Just one moment. When you said you returned

    3 home, you returned to Oseliste, the municipality of

    4 Busovaca?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Then you left for Austria?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And then you returned after some time home to

    9 Oseliste?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Where did you begin working when you came

    12 back to Oseliste?

    13 A. Well, I came to Oseliste at the end of

    14 October '92.

    15 Q. Where did you start working?

    16 A. I started to work at the Busovaca police

    17 administration at the beginning of November '92.

    18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Well, in order to

    19 follow more easily what you will be testifying about, I

    20 would like the usher to give you and the Trial Chamber

    21 this map.

    22 THE REGISTRAR: The document is D64/2.

    23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    24 Q. Could you please indicate Oseliste, how many

    25 kilometres it is away from Busovaca, and if you could



  41. 1 also indicate this on the ELMO, please?

    2 A. This is Oseliste. It's ten kilometres away

    3 from Busovaca. That's this part here (indicating).

    4 Q. Could you indicate Busovaca, please?

    5 A. (Indicating)

    6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter can't hear the

    7 witness.

    8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    9 Q. These villages that are next to your village

    10 of Oseliste, they are called Gusti Grab, then across

    11 the road there is the village of Bukovci, and then some

    12 smaller settlements. Are these mainly Croatian

    13 settlements in this region between Kacuni and

    14 Bilalovac, which are all on the map? If you could

    15 indicate Bilalovac on the map, please? Have you found

    16 Kacuni; is that right?

    17 A. (Indicating)

    18 Q. Okay. And Bilalovac?

    19 A. (Indicating)

    20 Q. So in this region between Kacuni and

    21 Bilalovac on the left side and the right side, are

    22 these predominantly Croat settlements at that time?

    23 Then Oseliste, where you were born and where you lived,

    24 what was the population in Oseliste?

    25 A. Oseliste was 100 per cent Croat.



  42. 1 Q. After you started to work in the civilian

    2 police, what did you do? Were you an intern, trainee?

    3 A. Yes. I had the status of trainee, which I

    4 fulfilled within six months.

    5 Q. At that time, in November of '92, was there a

    6 joint police in Busovaca? Were both Croats and Muslims

    7 members of that police force?

    8 A. Yes, they were.

    9 Q. So what happened on the 25th of January of

    10 1993?

    11 A. On the 25th of January of '93, at about 11.00

    12 a.m., I went to work in Busovaca.

    13 Q. What happened on the way there?

    14 A. Well, I went down to the road. The bus lines

    15 were not operating, so I was hitchhiking. A truck

    16 stopped for me, so I took the truck in the direction of

    17 Busovaca; and then in Kacuni, close to the mosque, to

    18 be more precise, five masked soldiers ran out into the

    19 road. They were armed.

    20 Q. Whose soldiers were they?

    21 A. They were soldiers of the BH army. They were

    22 wearing black uniforms and had black caps on their

    23 heads.

    24 Q. Then what happened?

    25 A. When they stopped us, they approached the



  43. 1 vehicle with their weapons. They pointed rifles at

    2 both of us, on our necks. They told us to come out of

    3 the vehicle, and that's what we did. They took my

    4 weapons from me, the rifle and the gun.

    5 Q. You were in uniform?

    6 A. Yes. So they took the rifle and the gun,

    7 they searched us, and then they told us we could go,

    8 after which we went into the vehicle again, and we

    9 started off in the direction of Busovaca.

    10 I arrived in Busovaca, and I reported to my

    11 commander what had happened. He called Kacuni, he

    12 called the BH army command, and he told them what had

    13 happened and asked for these weapons to be returned, if

    14 possible.

    15 Shortly after that, the phone rang, and my

    16 commander answered it, and he was told that there had

    17 been shooting in Kacuni, that members of the BH army

    18 had attacked the escort of the military police and that

    19 there were some injured. This was two people, one of

    20 them was a member of the military police, and then

    21 afterwards, we found out that the other person was just

    22 passing through, he was temporarily there from Konjic.

    23 Q. So a member of the military police, Ivica

    24 Petrovic, was killed then?

    25 A. Yes. That same day, he was brought to



  44. 1 Busovaca, to the health clinic, and that's where I saw

    2 him.

    3 Q. So could you please tell us whether a state

    4 of alert was declared, a higher state of alert was

    5 declared at that time? Do you have any information

    6 about this?

    7 A. No, I don't know whether the state of alert

    8 was declared in the military units.

    9 Q. Was it discovered what had happened in Dusina

    10 on that day?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. What happened on the 26th in the morning?

    13 A. On the 26th in the morning at 6 a.m. the

    14 siren went off and it had the general danger tone. And

    15 then that day the shooting started around the town and

    16 in the town itself.

    17 Q. Who attacked Busovaca?

    18 A. Busovaca was attacked by members of the BiH

    19 Army.

    20 Q. So how many days did these combat activities

    21 go on for?

    22 A. The combat went on for about 10 days.

    23 Q. You were in Busovaca during that whole time?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You couldn't go home?



  45. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. So what did you find out then?

    3 A. On the 26th of January, 1993, we found out

    4 that there was shooting in Dusina, and then on the 27th

    5 of January we found out that there were a lot killed in

    6 Dusina. We found this out from two of the citizens of

    7 Dusina who managed to escape.

    8 Q. What did you find out about your parents some

    9 10 days after that?

    10 A. Ten days later I was called to the Red Cross

    11 and they told me there that both of my parents were

    12 killed, and that they had already been buried the day

    13 before.

    14 Q. Where were your parents killed?

    15 A. My parents were killed in our family house in

    16 Oseliste, the municipality of Busovaca.

    17 Q. How old were your parents?

    18 A. My father was 59 years old. My mother was 58

    19 years old.

    20 Q. Where are they buried?

    21 A. My parents are buried in Badnje, in the

    22 municipality of Kiseljak.

    23 Q. In view of the fact that you didn't see your

    24 parents --

    25 A. No.



  46. 1 Q. -- who informed you about where their bodies

    2 were found?

    3 A. After 10 days, from the outbreak of the

    4 conflict, the phone lines started to work again, so

    5 that my uncle Janko Grubesic called me on the phone and

    6 told me what had happened. He saw them. He found out

    7 about their murder from Mato Drljepan, who had come to

    8 his house and told him that they were killed.

    9 Q. So could you please tell us whether your

    10 father had weapons?

    11 A. My father never had any weapons.

    12 Q. Was anybody else killed in the village at

    13 that time?

    14 A. Yes, several persons were killed. My parents

    15 were killed, as I have stated, Anto Simic was killed,

    16 Ante Steko was killed, Niko Kristo, Stipo Pravd and the

    17 husband of his mother Kata Pravd.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: I suggest we take a break, a

    19 30-minute break.

    20 --- Recess taken at 3.06 p.m.

    21 --- On resuming at 3.36 p.m.

    22 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    23 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. We would like to

    24 proceed now. So, as regards the death of your parents,

    25 you only know about that from the stories of other



  47. 1 people, do you?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Tell me, what does your neighbour tell you?

    4 Where were your parents killed?

    5 A. My neighbour, Mato Drljepan, told me that my

    6 parents were in his house and that they went back to

    7 their own house.

    8 Q. They were in his house, you said. They

    9 actually fled from their own house; is that correct?

    10 A. Yes. During the conflict they left their own

    11 house and they stayed at his house. After some time

    12 they returned to their own home. When the BiH Army

    13 came to his house, they told him that they killed Mijo

    14 and Anda. He didn't believe it. He headed towards my

    15 parents home to check. When he arrived to the house,

    16 he saw my father lying dead in front of the house and

    17 he ran away. He went in the direction of Kiseljak.

    18 Then he came to my uncle's house, my uncle

    19 Janko Grubesic, and he told them that my parents had

    20 been killed. My uncle got into the car and went to my

    21 parents house where he found them dead. My father was

    22 lying in front of the house and my mother was in the

    23 house. My father was shot in the head and my mother

    24 was shot in the back. Somebody had shot through the

    25 door. He put their bodies into the house (sic) and



  48. 1 went to Kiseljak. They were shooting after him, but he

    2 managed to get out. He organised the funeral and they

    3 were buried in the village of Badnje, the municipality

    4 of Kiseljak.

    5 Q. Mr. Grubesic, could you tell us whether in

    6 Oseliste there were any Croats left in that village

    7 after the 16th of April?

    8 A. No, there were no Croats left there.

    9 Q. In the surrounding villages that you pointed

    10 out to us, Gusti Grab, Bukovci?

    11 A. No, no Croats were left there either.

    12 Q. Tell me, do you know whether the houses were

    13 burnt down in those villages?

    14 A. Yes, I know. Most of the houses were burnt

    15 down, almost all of them, and those that were not

    16 burned were looted and destroyed. I think that houses

    17 were torched up there, according to a certain list.

    18 That is what I was told by a neighbour of mine, Mato

    19 Drljepan.

    20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could I please ask the

    21 usher to hand out these death certificates.

    22 THE REGISTRAR: Document D65/2.

    23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    24 Q. Is this the death certificate of your

    25 parents?



  49. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And whose else?

    3 A. This is the death certificate of my parents,

    4 of Niko Kristo, Ante Steko.

    5 Q. So all of them were killed at that time, were

    6 they?

    7 A. Yes, all of them were killed approximately

    8 during those 10 days of conflict in the territory of

    9 the municipality of Busovaca. And they were

    10 civilians.

    11 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could I please ask the

    12 usher to hand out these photographs as well.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Document D66/2.

    14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    15 Q. Please tell us, Mr. Grubesic, do you know

    16 what this is?

    17 A. Yes, I do.

    18 Q. Which houses are these? You don't have to

    19 look at the list, because it's all there. Are these

    20 pictures of houses from your village?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Could you please have a look at this entire

    23 file of photographs. Are these houses in Oseliste?

    24 A. Yes, all of them are in Oseliste.

    25 Q. Tell me, was your house burnt down?



  50. 1 A. My house was not burnt down, but it was

    2 looted completely, so only the bare walls are there.

    3 Q. Tell me, do you know how many houses were

    4 burnt down?

    5 A. I think that from Kacuni to Brestovsko there

    6 were over 100 burnt houses.

    7 Q. Were all of them torched at that time,

    8 between the 25th of January, 1993 to the 30th of

    9 January, 1993?

    10 A. No, not all the houses were torched in that

    11 period of time, only some of them were. The rest were

    12 torched after the 30th of January.

    13 Q. Could you also tell us who made this file of

    14 photographs?

    15 A. This file of photographs was made by a

    16 co-worker of mine, otherwise a criminology technician

    17 at the police office in Busovaca. It was made after

    18 the cease-fire was signed.

    19 Q. All right. One more thing. The map that I

    20 first showed you, could we please have a look at that

    21 map. This neighbouring village of Gusti Grab, you also

    22 said that this is a Croatian village, and Bukovci,

    23 across the road?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Could you also show Nezirovici on this map,



  51. 1 please. Could you show Dusina and Lasva. In the

    2 middle. Yes, you've shown it to us. Could you please

    3 show Lasva too. You have to show it here on the ELMO.

    4 Very well. Thank you. Please, could you have a look

    5 at these other photo files.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Document D67/2.

    7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    8 Q. Tell me, can you recognise these houses?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And from which villages are these houses?

    11 A. These houses are from the villages of Gusti

    12 Grab, Bukovci, and a number of houses are from

    13 Oseliste.

    14 Q. Tell me, was this photo file made by your

    15 colleague too?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. I would like this photo file to be handed out

    18 too, please.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Document D68/2.

    20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    21 Q. Tell me, now we are talking about this photo

    22 file. Which villages are these houses from?

    23 A. In these photo files we can see photographs

    24 from the village of Nezirovici.

    25 Q. Are there some houses from Kacuni there too?



  52. 1 A. It is difficult to discern them in this photo

    2 file, because all of the houses were destroyed.

    3 Q. Tell me, was this photo file also made by

    4 your co-worker?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Is he the one who took the photographs of

    7 destroyed Croat houses in that area?

    8 A. Yes. He took the photographs of these houses

    9 in the villages of Nezirovici, Gusti Grab, Oseliste and

    10 Bukovci, and I think partly in Kacuni too.

    11 Q. On the map that you looked at a few minutes

    12 ago, and this part between Kacuni and Bilalovac, do you

    13 know, after the January conflict, whether that area

    14 remained throughout the war, whether it remained

    15 completely separated throughout the war?

    16 A. Yes. Yes, this part from Kacuni to

    17 Brestovsko, and that's about 15 kilometres altogether.

    18 It was completely cut off, so the Lasva River Valley

    19 was cut up into two pieces.

    20 Q. This part between Kacuni and Bilalovac was

    21 held by the BiH Army; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, we have

    24 another video clip. We have filmed these houses too.

    25 Since I gave the video cassette to the Prosecutor



  53. 1 yesterday, we can only look at the introduction,

    2 perhaps, and then if the Prosecutor agrees, it can be

    3 admitted into evidence without actually viewing the

    4 entire tape.

    5 These are houses from that area and the

    6 filming was actually done after these photo files had

    7 been made, and it was done by a criminology

    8 technician.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: We feel that since, in any

    10 case, we have been handed all these photographs, it is

    11 probably not necessary to view the film, and if you

    12 wish and the Prosecutor does not object, the videotape

    13 could be admitted into evidence. If it is just, I

    14 mean, a videotape showing all these --

    15 MR. TERRIER: We have no objection, Your

    16 Honour. No objection the videotape being admitted into

    17 evidence.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: The videotape is document

    19 number 69/2.

    20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.

    21 Q. Mr. Grubesic, what happened after the

    22 conflict in January?

    23 A. After the conflict or, rather, after the

    24 cease-fire was signed, on the 15th of April, 1993, I

    25 heard that in Kuber, in the municipality of Busovaca,



  54. 1 there was a conflict between the members of the BH army

    2 and the HVO. On that occasion, two members of the HVO

    3 were wounded, namely, Dragan Andrijasevic and Slavko

    4 Bijelic.

    5 Q. Do you know where they were from?

    6 A. Both were from Jelinak, the municipality of

    7 Busovaca.

    8 Q. Do you know what happened in Kuber after

    9 that, on the 16th and the 17th of April, 1993?

    10 A. Yes. On the 17th of April, in the morning, I

    11 was informed -- in the police, of course -- that a

    12 conflict had broken out in Kuber, that the BH army had

    13 attacked members of the HVO who were up there and that

    14 one member of the HVO was wounded. For assistance, we

    15 sent out a group from the ranks of the police, a group

    16 of eleven persons.

    17 Q. Were you with them?

    18 A. Yes. Yes.

    19 Q. Where did you go?

    20 A. I think there were eleven of us. We went to

    21 Jelinak where we were taken over or taken under the

    22 wing of a member of the HVO who took us to the hill of

    23 Saracevica.

    24 Q. That was an elevation; is that right?

    25 A. Yes. We went up there, and we found members



  55. 1 of the HVO in the forest in positions because the BH

    2 army had pushed them back from their positions. So we

    3 joined them there and we took up positions in the

    4 forest.

    5 Shortly after that, a strong attack took

    6 place. It was carried out by members of the BH army,

    7 so that these men had to retreat. I stayed and a

    8 member of the HVO.

    9 Q. What was his name?

    10 A. Anto Plavcic. So we stayed there for some

    11 time, and then after that, Anto Plavcic was killed.

    12 After he died, I tried to retreat back towards Jelinak,

    13 and I was wounded in my right hand and also I was shot

    14 through the lungs. When I was hit in the hand, my

    15 right hand was completely shattered. I was bleeding a

    16 lot, but I managed to cover about 300 metres. Because

    17 I had lost a lot of blood, I fell there and I couldn't

    18 get up anymore.

    19 Q. And then you were captured; is that right?

    20 A. Yes. After about 15 minutes, a group

    21 arrived, a group of members of the BH army, it came

    22 from the rear, and it found me there.

    23 Q. So who rescued you?

    24 A. A majority wanted to have me killed right

    25 there, but one of the group approached, I think he was



  56. 1 the commander, he bandaged me and charged four soldiers

    2 to carry me to the hospital.

    3 Q. So they took you to the hospital in Zenica;

    4 is that right?

    5 A. Yes. They took me to Zenica, to the

    6 hospital.

    7 Q. And you had surgery there?

    8 A. Yes. After four hours, they brought me in

    9 front of the hospital, and that's where I lost

    10 consciousness because I had been bleeding for a while,

    11 had lost a lot of blood. I don't know after how long,

    12 I woke up, and I was in the hospital room.

    13 Q. What happened in the hospital? Could you

    14 please tell us what was the attitude towards you, the

    15 attitude of the medical personnel and the soldiers?

    16 Did they take care of you?

    17 A. I wasn't guarded by soldiers. The hospital

    18 staff conducted itself correctly, but I was exposed to

    19 abuse by the soldiers who would come with weapons, and

    20 they threatened that they would kill me. Also, I was

    21 very afraid because of the Mujahedin; and when I say

    22 "Mujahedin," I mean the foreign nationals who were

    23 fighting in the ranks of the BH army.

    24 Q. When did you leave the hospital and how?

    25 A. After 13 days spent in the hospital, I



  57. 1 received information that they wanted to take me to the

    2 house of correction. I decided to escape from the

    3 hospital, which is what I did with the help of people,

    4 and I request, for the security of those persons --

    5 Q. There's no need. You don't need to tell us

    6 their names. Where did you hide after that?

    7 A. After I escaped from the hospital, I was

    8 hiding for five days in Zenica. I tried, with the help

    9 of some people, to get out of Zenica, with the help of

    10 UNPROFOR, but they refused.

    11 Q. Were you healed by then?

    12 A. No. During those five days, I wasn't even

    13 bandaged, so I was afraid that my wounds would get

    14 infected because they hadn't healed properly.

    15 Q. So how did you get out?

    16 A. When I was in Zenica, I received false

    17 identity papers in another name, and that's how I

    18 managed to transfer to Kakanj. I was there for 17

    19 days.

    20 Q. And then after that, you go on to Fojnica?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And then to Kiseljak; is that right?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. So how long did it take to go from Zenica to

    25 Kiseljak?



  58. 1 A. I think it took about 30 days.

    2 Q. How long did you receive medical treatment

    3 after that?

    4 A. For another six months.

    5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Would the usher please

    6 give these documents to the Trial Chamber?

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, we

    8 were wondering whether we need all these details.

    9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I am almost finished.

    10 I am finished, Mr. President. I just wanted for it to

    11 be seen that this story is true. We have confirmed

    12 this story, we have corroborated it with documents. I

    13 have no further questions. Thank you.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: Document D70/2.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

    16 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. I have no

    17 questions, but I will probably redirect after the

    18 Prosecution, if the Prosecutor intends to use the

    19 documents that he gave us today to examine the witness.

    20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I would also tender

    21 documents D64/2 to D70/2 into evidence.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection? No objection.

    23 There is no objection from the Prosecution, so they are

    24 admitted into evidence.

    25 Mr. Smith?



  59. 1 MR. SMITH: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

    2 Cross-examined by Mr. Smith:

    3 Q. Mr. Grubesic, I appear on behalf of the

    4 Prosecution team with Mr. Terrier and Mr. Blaxill, and

    5 it is my job to ask you a few questions about the

    6 information that you have given to the Court today to

    7 clarify a few issues. Do you understand that?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 MR. SMITH: Your Honours, I would ask that

    10 the witness be shown a map, a map of the area of

    11 Busovaca and Kiseljak. My friend, Ms. Glumac, used a

    12 map earlier, but this covers a broader area, which

    13 would help facilitate the cross-examination.

    14 Unfortunately, it's not in colour.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 347.

    16 MR. SMITH:

    17 Q. Mr. Grubesic, do you see the black and white

    18 map that I have just placed on the ELMO in front of you

    19 to your left?

    20 A. Yes, I see the map, but I can't read anything

    21 on it.

    22 MR. SMITH: Perhaps if the map on the ELMO

    23 could be placed in front of him? Thank you.

    24 Q. Mr. Grubesic, this map is slightly more

    25 difficult to read, but I have highlighted some of the



  60. 1 villages that are around the area that you lived in and

    2 obviously around the Busovaca area. Take your time to

    3 orientate yourself on the map.

    4 A. Yes. It's better now.

    5 Q. The map has highlighted the village of

    6 Oseliste; do you see that?

    7 A. Yes, I see it.

    8 Q. You mentioned some houses were destroyed in

    9 Bukovci, which is just across the road, the main road

    10 between Busovaca and Kiseljak? You see Bukovci?

    11 A. Yes, I see.

    12 Q. The other two villages that you mentioned had

    13 some destroyed houses further up the road towards

    14 Busovaca, Nezirovici and Gusti Grab; you referred to

    15 them in your testimony earlier?

    16 A. Yes, yes, I said -- but not some houses were

    17 destroyed but a large majority of them, practically all

    18 of them.

    19 Q. You also mentioned, when the photographs were

    20 shown to you, that some of the houses in those

    21 photograph albums you believed came from -- the photos

    22 were from Kacuni.

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. But you're not sure which ones they are. Do

    25 you know which houses in the photograph albums relate



  61. 1 to Kacuni?

    2 A. I think, if I looked at the captions or the

    3 index, then I could indicate a large number of houses

    4 from Kacuni, and here I see the house of Andtelko

    5 Kvesic which is in Kacuni.

    6 Q. You stated to the Court that you believed

    7 these houses were damaged between the 25th of January

    8 and within a ten-day period after that; is that right?

    9 A. Yes, some were destroyed from the 25th, but I

    10 don't know how long this destruction went on. I think

    11 for ten or fifteen days after that.

    12 Q. You've been told this information from other

    13 people; is that right?

    14 A. Yes, I received this information from other

    15 people, but after the cease-fire was signed, I passed

    16 through that area and I saw all those destroyed

    17 homes -- not all of them, but most of them.

    18 Q. The cease-fire was signed on what date; do

    19 you remember?

    20 A. I don't know the exact date.

    21 Q. Was it sometime in February '93?

    22 A. Yes, I think it was February, ten days after

    23 the 25th.

    24 Q. Now, you mentioned that -- I think you stated

    25 on the 25th of January, you were stopped at a



  62. 1 checkpoint at Kacuni by some people you believed to be

    2 in the Bosnian army; is that right?

    3 A. Yes. I was stopped roughly; guns were

    4 pointed at my neck.

    5 Q. You stated that you attended back at the

    6 police station in Busovaca. Was it the police

    7 commander that rang or was it a military commander that

    8 rang the headquarters at Kacuni to find out what was

    9 going on?

    10 A. I didn't say that I returned to Busovaca but

    11 that I continued on to Busovaca, and I reported to my

    12 commander, the commander of the civilian police, and he

    13 called Kacuni, the command of the BH army, but I don't

    14 know who he spoke with.

    15 Q. When did you receive information that someone

    16 had been injured at the checkpoint? Was it the same

    17 day, the 25th?

    18 A. Yes, in the afternoon.

    19 Q. As far as you're concerned, that was when the

    20 conflict started, on the 25th, in Kacuni at least?

    21 A. As far as I know, yes. In Kacuni, near the

    22 mosque in Kacuni, to be more precise. As far as I

    23 heard, a military police patrol was attacked.

    24 Q. Kacuni is largely a Muslim town; that's

    25 right, isn't it?



  63. 1 A. I think that the ratio of the population in

    2 Kacuni is about 50-50 per cent, but there are villages,

    3 several villages, where there is a Muslim majority.

    4 Q. In any event, prior to the 25th of January,

    5 there was no blockade between Busovaca and Kiseljak;

    6 you could gain access from both towns, you could get to

    7 work every day?

    8 A. Yes. I came to work normally, and until

    9 then, I had never had any problems.

    10 Q. After this ten days of conflict, Busovaca and

    11 Kiseljak were separated; you couldn't gain access from

    12 one town to the other. Is that right?

    13 A. No, you couldn't get to Kiseljak from

    14 Busovaca nor from Kiseljak to Busovaca.

    15 Q. Is it the case that -- tell me if you don't

    16 know -- but is it the case that it was from Bilalovac

    17 to Kacuni that no access could be gained by HVO

    18 soldiers after the ten days of conflict?

    19 A. No. The BH army would not permit passage.

    20 Q. That's correct. So in relation to Oseliste

    21 and Bukovci, that was a frontline, that area was being

    22 fought over between the HVO and the Bosnian army over

    23 that ten-day period? If you don't know, just say "I

    24 don't know."

    25 A. As far as I know, the line, the separation



  64. 1 line was in Kacuni and civilians were up there, Croats.

    2 Q. Do you agree with me that in that area that

    3 was being fought over by the two armies, over that

    4 ten-day period?

    5 A. As far as I know, there wasn't any fighting

    6 up there, and this entire area was under the control of

    7 the BH army.

    8 Q. For that ten-day period, from Bilalovac to

    9 Kacuni, there was no fighting in that area; is that

    10 what you are saying?

    11 A. As far as I know, no.

    12 Q. I want to show you a document. It's an order

    13 from the commander of the Ban Jelacic Brigade, which is

    14 based in Kiseljak. I would like you to read that order

    15 and see whether that refreshes your memory about what

    16 was happening between Kacuni and Bilalovac over that

    17 ten-day period.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 348.

    19 MR. SMITH:

    20 Q. Have you had a chance to read the document?

    21 A. Yes, I have read the document.

    22 Q. You can see it's dated the 27th of January,

    23 1993. In the third paragraph, the last sentence it

    24 states, "The Bukovci village must be taken by nightfall

    25 on condition that we burn anything standing in our



  65. 1 way." Do you see that sentence?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. That would seem to indicate that there may

    4 well have been fighting between Kacuni and Bilalovac

    5 over that ten-day period; does it not?

    6 A. Since I am not a military man, I find this

    7 order a bit strange. I did not have the opportunity to

    8 see such documents. And these villages here, the ones

    9 mentioned here, are in the territory of the

    10 municipality of Kiseljak, so I don't know what was

    11 going on up there.

    12 Q. Bukovci is in Busovaca municipality; isn't

    13 that correct?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. That's what this order refers to. I think

    16 you said in your evidence earlier that Bukovci was a

    17 predominantly Croat village. Are you sure about that?

    18 A. No, I did not say that. The majority

    19 population was Muslim, but there were about 15 to 20

    20 Croat houses there too.

    21 Q. You said that the attack on Busovaca by the

    22 Bosnian army occurred on the 26th of January. Are you

    23 sure that the fighting occurred on the 26th or could

    24 you be mistaken about the dates? Could it have

    25 occurred on the 25th of January?



  66. 1 A. I said that on the 25th there was an incident

    2 in Kacuni, and on that occasion two persons were

    3 killed. They were both Croats.

    4 Q. Did you say that two people were killed or

    5 two people were injured?

    6 A. Killed.

    7 Q. What were you doing on the 16th -- sorry, on

    8 the 26th of January?

    9 A. On the 26th of January I was at the police

    10 station.

    11 Q. Within the township of Busovaca on the day

    12 that you say the attack occurred, a large number of

    13 Muslims were arrested and taken to Kaonik Camp. Are

    14 you aware of that?

    15 A. I heard about that.

    16 Q. Are you aware that on the 26th of January, in

    17 Loncari, a large number of Muslims from that village

    18 were taken to Kaonik Camp?

    19 A. I don't know about that.

    20 Q. Are you aware of a large number of Muslims

    21 from the Jelinak village being taken to Kaonik Camp on

    22 the 26th of January?

    23 A. I don't know about that either.

    24 Q. Do you know about Kaonik Camp and what was

    25 happening there in January, early February, from the



  67. 1 25th of January to the 10th of February? Do you know

    2 what was happening at that place?

    3 A. I heard that there was a prison over there,

    4 but I don't know what was happening there. And I

    5 didn't visit that prison either at that time.

    6 Q. Are you aware of a group of about 15 Muslims

    7 being taken to the village of Merdani and used as

    8 hostages in order that the residents from the village

    9 surrender their weapons, the Muslim residents in late

    10 January, 1993?

    11 A. I don't know about that either.

    12 Q. There's a few more of these situations that I

    13 need to put to you, but you seem to be aware of some

    14 matters, and I just want to see whether or not you are

    15 aware of other events going on in a particular area at

    16 the time.

    17 There was a group of 15 men taken from Kaonik

    18 Camp to a village called Stranjani in late January,

    19 1993, and they were used as hostages so that the

    20 Muslims from that village would hand over their

    21 weapons. Are you aware of that?

    22 A. I am not aware of that event. If something

    23 had happened, I think it was done by the army, and I

    24 was a member of the civilian police.

    25 Q. These events are common knowledge to some



  68. 1 people, so in terms of if you picked it up from common

    2 knowledge, that's why I am asking you.

    3 In relation to the village of Skradno, the

    4 same incident occurred where 15 Muslims were taken to

    5 the village as hostages, so that the male villagers

    6 would hand over their weapons to the HVO. Were you

    7 aware of that, in late January, 1993?

    8 A. I'm not aware of that either.

    9 Q. Can you explain to the Court your knowledge

    10 of the Kaonik Camp, what it was, and what it was used

    11 for in late January, 1993 through to June, '93.

    12 A. Although I never went there, I cannot give

    13 you the right picture.

    14 Q. You must have some knowledge, bearing in mind

    15 you were involved with the military when you went to

    16 Kuber. You assisted in a military operation at Kuber

    17 when you were injured. You must be aware of what was

    18 happening at Kaonik Camp at that time.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, objection.

    20 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I give all

    21 credit to the Prosecutor, but he cannot tell the

    22 witness what he does know, what he doesn't know. The

    23 witness says what he knows and what he doesn't know,

    24 and no one can make him know what he doesn't know.

    25 So he insists on this question and keeps telling the



  69. 1 witness that he has to know that, and I think that that

    2 is utterly wrong. Thank you.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You are right. I

    4 think you should not insist because it's clear that the

    5 witness does not know about the Kaonik Camp.

    6 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. There is

    7 just one last question I would like to ask.

    8 Q. In relation to the practice of digging

    9 trenches, you said that you went to the Kuber range and

    10 I think you fought on the frontline for the HVO; is

    11 that correct?

    12 A. Yes, yes, I was at Kuber, but I was sent by

    13 my commander. And what co-operation he had with the

    14 army, that I don't know.

    15 Q. Are you aware of the practice of

    16 trench-digging in the Busovaca area in January and

    17 February and then April in '93?

    18 A. I am not aware of that.

    19 Q. So you are not aware that large numbers of

    20 Muslims, civilians, were used to dig trenches in

    21 January and in April, 1993?

    22 A. I have been saying that I was a member of the

    23 civilian police, and if the army did something, I

    24 cannot know about that.

    25 Q. When you arrived back to Busovaca, Oseliste,



  70. 1 I think it was in November, 1992 from Austria; is that

    2 correct?

    3 A. Yes, I came from Austria.

    4 Q. And the HVO had controlled all of the

    5 government offices in the township of Busovaca; is that

    6 correct?

    7 A. I think that is not correct. I think that

    8 the Croats and the Muslims were still together.

    9 Q. Together in the sense of the governing

    10 authority in Busovaca, together in the sense of the

    11 police and in relation to joint military activity in

    12 Busovaca township? In all of those areas are you

    13 saying that the Muslims and the Croats were together on

    14 equal footing when you arrived back?

    15 A. As far as political decisions and political

    16 activities are concerned, they were together. In the

    17 police they were together. As regards the organisation

    18 of the army, I am not familiar with that.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: I apologise for interrupting

    20 you. Do you have still many more questions, because we

    21 may take a break now.

    22 MR. SMITH: I have about 15 minutes, Your

    23 Honour.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: So let's take a break and

    25 then you resume your cross-examination. Fifteen minute



  71. 1 break.

    2 --- Recess taken at 4.46 p.m.

    3 --- On resuming at 5.06 p.m.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Smith, you said you need

    5 about 15 more minutes?

    6 MR. SMITH: I'll be less than that, Your

    7 Honour, I think you'll be pleased. About five minutes.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Five minutes. Wonderful. We

    9 had hoped we may finish with this witness this

    10 afternoon, and we can get through tomorrow with the two

    11 remaining witnesses, and also because, as you know, we

    12 will skip one week. I imagine the witnesses are around

    13 so they should not be required to come back in about

    14 ten days.

    15 Yes, please.

    16 MR. SMITH:

    17 Q. Mr. Grubesic, a lot of your testimony has

    18 been about what people have told you what happened in

    19 these villages, in the villages of Oseliste and Bukovci

    20 and the villages in that area. Who were you receiving

    21 your information from generally at the time, in April

    22 1993? Was it military or was it friends or both?

    23 A. I mainly received my information from

    24 friends, mostly civilians.

    25 Q. You mentioned that you received some



  72. 1 information about some happenings at Kuber. When did

    2 you first receive information about any fighting at

    3 Kuber in April '93?

    4 A. I first heard about it on the 15th, that some

    5 incidents occurred up there between the members of the

    6 HVO and the BH army. I received this information at

    7 the police, from my co-workers.

    8 Q. You were working on the 15th of April; is

    9 that right?

    10 A. No. No, I was not.

    11 Q. The first you heard of any incidents at Kuber

    12 was when you were told on the 15th of April?

    13 A. Yes. Yes. On the 15th of April, in the

    14 afternoon.

    15 Q. What day did you go to Kuber yourself?

    16 A. On the 17th of April, in the morning.

    17 Q. When was the first that you heard that

    18 someone was killed at Kuber? On what day was the first

    19 day that someone was killed at Kuber, to your

    20 knowledge?

    21 A. I think it was on the 17th, to the best of my

    22 knowledge, and Anto Plavcic was killed, a member of the

    23 HVO who was with me up there.

    24 Q. Was it in the morning of the 17th or in the

    25 afternoon?



  73. 1 A. In the morning.

    2 Q. Are you aware that on the 15th of April, in

    3 the village of Jelinak, which is near Kuber, that the

    4 Muslim males from that village were arrested and taken

    5 to Kaonik?

    6 A. I'm not aware of that.

    7 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your

    8 Honour.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    10 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender the exhibits.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: 347, 348 --

    12 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: -- into evidence? No

    14 objection from the Defence? No objection. Thank you.

    15 They are admitted into evidence.

    16 Now, as for the re-examination, Counsel

    17 Radovic or Counsel Slokovic-Glumac? No? Counsel

    18 Slokovic-Glumac?

    19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I thought you would be

    20 doing it [to Mr. Radovic].

    21 Re-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    22 Q. Mr. Grubesic, in the area of Busovaca or in

    23 the area of the municipality of Vitez, was there a camp

    24 there? Did you hear of a camp being there?

    25 A. No.



  74. 1 Q. What was in Kaonik? The Prosecutor mentioned

    2 it. What was in Kaonik?

    3 A. As far as I know, the district prison is

    4 there.

    5 Q. Is that a big prison? Have you ever been

    6 there?

    7 A. No.

    8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could we please have

    9 P348?

    10 Q. Tell me, is any mention made of Nezirovici,

    11 Gusti Grab, Oseliste in this document anywhere?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. So no mention is made of any one of the

    14 Croatian villages that are on the right-hand side when

    15 going from Kiseljak to Busovaca, on the right-hand side

    16 of the road? I mean -- yes.

    17 A. No, no village is mentioned.

    18 Q. This part above the road, was it

    19 predominantly Croatian?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Is there a village in this part that was

    22 Muslim; do you know that?

    23 A. Yes, there is. The village of Bukovci.

    24 Q. Bukovci is on the lower side, on the

    25 left-hand side, below the road; is that right?



  75. 1 A. Viewed from Kiseljak, they are on the

    2 left-hand side of the road.

    3 Q. So Bukovci was on the left-hand side of the

    4 road and it had a predominantly Muslim population,

    5 didn't it?

    6 A. Yes. Perhaps there were some 20 Croat

    7 houses.

    8 Q. Bukovci is somewhere where the Kiseljak

    9 municipality starts; is that correct?

    10 A. Yes, yes. The village of Bukovci borders on

    11 the Kiseljak municipality.

    12 Q. The order that was issued was issued by the

    13 commander of the Ban Jelacic Brigade in Kiseljak; is

    14 that correct?

    15 A. Yes, as far as I could read it.

    16 Q. Did you know in those days what was actually

    17 going on? Did you know that in that part, on the

    18 left-hand side, that there was any combat action there?

    19 A. No, I did not learn about that.

    20 Q. Where was the war being waged between the BH

    21 units and the Busovaca municipality? Was this

    22 predominantly in town or in these villages in the

    23 immediate vicinity of Busovaca?

    24 A. Most of the fighting took place at the

    25 separation lines, that is to say, in the surrounding



  76. 1 villages.

    2 Q. Tell me, in relation to the villages that the

    3 Prosecutor asked you about, that is to say, those that

    4 are near Kuber, do you know whether Jelinak had a

    5 majority Croat population or a majority Muslim

    6 population? Jelinak and Putis.

    7 A. I think that the Croat population had a

    8 majority.

    9 Q. What about Putis?

    10 A. In Putis, there was a mixed population.

    11 Q. Do you perhaps know whether any Croats

    12 remained in Jelinak and Putis after these events? Are

    13 there any Croats in that area? I'm talking about the

    14 events of April 1993, when you said that you were there

    15 too.

    16 A. As far as I know, Croats fled from that area.

    17 Q. Were Croat houses burned in that area around

    18 Kuber too?

    19 A. As far as I managed to find out afterwards,

    20 after the cease-fire was signed, all the houses up

    21 there were either burned or destroyed.

    22 Q. I have one more question regarding these

    23 events. Do you know what happened in Kuber on the

    24 16th? Was there fighting in Kuber then? You said that

    25 you had information about a conflict on the 15th, and



  77. 1 then you know that on the 17th, there was fighting.

    2 Did you participate, and was there any fighting on the

    3 16th?

    4 A. I think, yes, there were incidents.

    5 Q. Do you know in which part, whether this was

    6 from the side of Busovaca or from the Vitez side of

    7 Kuber?

    8 A. From the Busovaca side.

    9 Q. Do you know in which places this happened?

    10 A. I don't know the terrain up there very well.

    11 I only know that the point, elevation where I was, is

    12 called Saracevica, and near it there were some

    13 incidents.

    14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you very much. I

    15 have no more questions.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. There are no

    17 questions from the Court.

    18 Mr. Grubesic, thank you for giving evidence

    19 in court. You may now be released. Thank you.

    20 (The witness withdrew)

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: We move on to Mr. Stojak.

    22 Yes, Counsel Susak?

    23 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have a request

    24 before we start with the next witness. I would like to

    25 ask the Prosecution one question, and I also suggest



  78. 1 that we move into closed session because we will now

    2 mention some names.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    4 (Closed session)

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    5 (redacted)

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    8 (redacted)

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    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (Open session)

    18 (The witness entered court)

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Stojak, good afternoon.

    20 Could you please make the solemn declaration.

    21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    22 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    23 truth.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    25 seated.



  81. 1 WITNESS: DRAGAN STOJAK

    2 Examined by Mr. Susak:

    3 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.

    4 Good day, Mr. Stojak.

    5 A. Good day.

    6 Q. Could you please tell us where you come from

    7 and your date of birth.

    8 A. I was born on the 30th of November, 1962 in

    9 Vitez, and I am permanently residing in Vitez.

    10 Q. What is your occupation?

    11 A. I am a professor of All People's Defence.

    12 Q. Are you married? Do you have children?

    13 A. Yes, I am married. I have two children.

    14 Q. Could you please tell us where you were

    15 employed before the war.

    16 A. On the 1st of June, in 1991, I started to

    17 work at the intelligence centre in Vitez.

    18 Q. Where did you work before that?

    19 A. I wasn't working anywhere. After university

    20 I spent two years on temporary work in Switzerland, and

    21 then, when I came back from Switzerland, I started to

    22 work at the centre.

    23 Q. How long did you work there?

    24 A. Until the 15th of August, 1998.

    25 Q. Were any Muslims employed in the centre?



  82. 1 A. Yes. There were Muslims there. They were

    2 employed there permanently.

    3 Q. Could you give us some examples.

    4 A. Yes. When I came to the centre for

    5 intelligence, when I started to work there, Nedin

    6 Zlotrg was my boss. He was the chief, the head of the

    7 centre. And then also there were also Rasad Zlotrg,

    8 Vladica Babic and myself who were working there. And

    9 Dragan Bilatic as well.

    10 Q. So how many were employed there?

    11 A. There were four operatives working at the

    12 centre, and one head of the centre.

    13 Q. Is this centre -- was it later expanded, as

    14 far as the staff was concerned?

    15 A. In the course of aggression against Slovenia

    16 and Croatia, the staff was increased mainly by

    17 volunteers, because there was more work to do.

    18 Q. Were there any changes in the centre? Was

    19 there any reconstruction carried out during the war?

    20 A. Of course.

    21 Q. But it more or less remained as it did?

    22 A. Yes, it did.

    23 Q. How did you get information? Could you

    24 please tell us whether there were any visual observers?

    25 A. Yes. We formed visual observers in the



  83. 1 neighbouring villages, because our centre, one of its

    2 duties, among others, was to alert the population, and

    3 with the escalation of the aggression against Croatia

    4 and Slovenia, there was a need to place visual

    5 observers because we were afraid of air attacks on

    6 Vitez. We mainly used people from the neighbouring

    7 villages, so the local population, because we couldn't

    8 pay them or compensate them in any other way, so they

    9 worked on volunteer basis. They were those who would

    10 generally give us information, mostly by telephone, and

    11 sometimes they would send messengers, depending on the

    12 situation.

    13 Q. So you had this intelligence centre. Were

    14 you close to the Crisis Staff, and who was in the

    15 Crisis Staff?

    16 A. Before the 16th, before the combat activities

    17 began, we were buildings next to each other, so the

    18 centre for intelligence was located in the cellar of

    19 the post office, and this is what was the situation

    20 before and it still is the situation. The Crisis Staff

    21 was in the municipal building that was next door. Then

    22 at the beginning the Crisis Staff moved close to us.

    23 It also went to a separate room in the cellar of the

    24 post office.

    25 Q. So did you have all the information available



  84. 1 at the centre or did the Crisis Staff have some

    2 information that you didn't have?

    3 A. No, we didn't have all the information. We

    4 mostly received and distributed mail. However, this

    5 mail would often bypass us and would go where it was

    6 supposed to directly, so --

    7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, may I

    8 just take a second. There is a problem with the

    9 translation. We don't want this whole testimony to go

    10 in a wrong direction, because it would lose meaning.

    11 Mr. Stojak worked in the centre for information. It's

    12 not intelligence, intelligence centre. It's a centre

    13 to provide information of what is going on so to --

    14 it's like an alarm system in case of need, to alarm the

    15 population of what's going on. In war and peace this

    16 centre operates. So its purpose is not to gather

    17 intelligence, but to provide information about what is

    18 going on. So the translation is wrong.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    20 MR. SUSAK:

    21 Q. So now we will be more specific. You said

    22 that this centre -- did it also deal with other kind of

    23 events, because you said information in case of

    24 something. So would you please tell us what this

    25 something is?



  85. 1 A. Well, I said, amongst other duties -- maybe

    2 to clarify to this Trial Chamber. This centre for

    3 information, 985, is like the centre 911, the emergency

    4 number. It's connected to the hospital. So it's used

    5 to convey information to certain institutions,

    6 depending on what the situation called for.

    7 Q. So now I will ask you. You are talking about

    8 this centre. You said that nothing had changed. Did

    9 the centre carry out the same duties before the war and

    10 after the war?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. All right. Because you are closely connected

    13 to the defence office, do you know what the purpose of

    14 the defence office was?

    15 A. Before the war or after the war?

    16 Q. Before the war and after the war.

    17 A. The defence --

    18 Q. Well, before the conflict and after the

    19 conflict.

    20 A. The defence office, in the earlier system,

    21 usually maintained records of military conscripts, it

    22 sent the conscripts to serve their military duty in the

    23 then JNA, but with the aggression against Croatia, all

    24 of this was suspended, so the office did not carry out

    25 these duties anymore. It maintained records, purely



  86. 1 the paperwork that is appropriate to such an office,

    2 and then new developments occurred. So as part of

    3 the --

    4 Q. Mr. Stojak, would you please speak more

    5 slowly because this has to be interpreted?

    6 A. The component of that office was us, the

    7 centre for information, and then the sector for

    8 civilian defence, that was a sector of the civil

    9 defence department, and then in the times of war, this

    10 service would really take care of the disabled, would

    11 help children, it would distribute aid and food to

    12 these needy categories of people.

    13 Q. Do you know when mobilisation was carried out

    14 in Vitez?

    15 A. Mobilisation in Vitez began on the 16th of

    16 April in 1993, sometime in the second part of that day,

    17 approximately.

    18 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I would ask the

    19 usher to show the witness a Prosecution document 335.

    20 Q. If you've had a look at it ...

    21 If you had a look at it, Mr. Stojak, we would

    22 like to concentrate on this written report first and

    23 foremost. What does it mean that the defence

    24 department, in addition to its regular work, has also

    25 established the Vitez Brigade and a working group has



  87. 1 been set up together with other people from the defence

    2 department?

    3 A. I said a few minutes ago that from earlier

    4 on, we had those records, those lists of conscripts.

    5 It was only natural, in terms of military hierarchy,

    6 that the defence department, together with someone from

    7 the brigade headquarters, would call up conscripts in a

    8 case of war, immediate threat of war, or other such

    9 situations.

    10 Q. Now we're going to see point 3. What does

    11 that mean, "from the 16th of April up to and including

    12 28th April, 1993, a total of 498 conscripts were

    13 mobilised and actively included in HVO units, in

    14 addition to the regular personnel of the Viteska

    15 Brigade."

    16 First of all, may I remind you of the

    17 following: Is it possible for 498 conscripts to be

    18 mobilised in a single day?

    19 A. I said a few minutes ago that mobilisation

    20 started on the 16th of April, sometime during the

    21 latter part of the day, that is to say that there was

    22 still commotion at this initial stage of the war. Four

    23 hundred ninety-eight is a viable figure but only on

    24 paper, only in terms of records. People were

    25 registered in this war situation. So in terms of



  88. 1 paper, this was done, but I don't think in practical

    2 terms, 498 conscripts could have actually been

    3 mobilised, I mean actually taken to trenches or into

    4 battle or whatever, because -- there would be an

    5 example of this in these lists. I know quite a few of

    6 these people, and if I were to look at these lists very

    7 carefully, I could certainly find even more examples,

    8 but I know some of these people. Obviously, for

    9 example, numbers 85 and 86. It is mentioned here that

    10 Vojvodic Miro and Vojvodic Zoran were mobilised. Those

    11 are two brothers. But it is well-known that they

    12 worked as translators for the U.N. then. Nowadays, it

    13 is called IFOR.

    14 Q. Could they have been mobilised if they worked

    15 for UNPROFOR?

    16 A. Who could have informed them at UNPROFOR and

    17 who could have got them out of UNPROFOR? Ordinary

    18 people, people from the defence department, et cetera,

    19 I mean, who could have gone into the UNPROFOR camp?

    20 Q. So nobody had access to the UNPROFOR camp and

    21 there was no cooperation in this respect; is that

    22 correct?

    23 A. No, no. Only high officers could enter

    24 UNPROFOR premises, but this was much later.

    25 And also I have the example of Dragan



  89. 1 Pavlovic.

    2 Q. Which number is that?

    3 A. Just a minute. Just let me have a look at

    4 it. Two hundred twenty-six.

    5 Q. What did you want to say about Pavlovic?

    6 A. This gentleman was the director of a company

    7 in Vitez, and he was away on business in the Republic

    8 of Croatia, in Ploca, and he spent the entire war

    9 there, so he didn't even show up in Vitez.

    10 Q. So how could he have been mobilised?

    11 A. Because mobilisation as such means that,

    12 first and foremost, all of this has to be done on

    13 paper, and then the relevant team goes out and

    14 distributes call-up papers to all the persons who are

    15 supposed to be mobilised. There are probably other

    16 examples of this nature, but we don't have enough time,

    17 I imagine, to go into an in-depth analysis right now.

    18 Q. Could you establish that some person from

    19 this list was mobilised after the 16th of April, 1993?

    20 A. Well, probably. Probably most of these men

    21 were because the mobilisation started in the latter

    22 half of the day.

    23 Q. This period is the 16th of April until the

    24 28th of April inclusive; that's what this paper says.

    25 A. Yes, that's right.



  90. 1 Q. So it's not possible practically to do this

    2 in one day?

    3 A. No, practically, it is not possible to do

    4 this in one day.

    5 Q. Since you have a degree in national defence;

    6 is that correct --

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. -- so what does that mean, that most of these

    9 conscripts were involved in frontline activities from

    10 the very first day?

    11 A. Where is this?

    12 Q. This is under point 3 on the first page of

    13 this report.

    14 A. That means that these 498 conscripts were

    15 directly involved in HVO units. However, during a

    16 military conflict, it is only natural that the people

    17 from the Viteska Brigade would take the first attack;

    18 and then, as mobilisation proceeded, then they received

    19 additional manpower as listed here.

    20 Q. So you think that these reserve units could

    21 not have taken part in the first repulsion or the first

    22 attack?

    23 A. They couldn't have.

    24 Q. You also have another sentence down here that

    25 the mobilised persons are being used as replacements on



  91. 1 the lines after the first assault. How long can this

    2 go on, for several days or not? These replacements, I

    3 mean.

    4 A. Well, at any rate, it is the regular units

    5 that take the first attack. However, as ranks are

    6 stabilised, then replacements come in, and this can go

    7 on until an official document says the mobilisation is

    8 over. However, mobilisation could not have been over

    9 throughout combat activities because additional

    10 personnel were needed all the time and also additional

    11 logistics.

    12 Q. Could you please explain what mobilisation

    13 means, in your opinion, or can you explain what

    14 mobilisation along automatic lines means, or what does

    15 it mean in military terminology?

    16 A. In military terminology, mobilisation along

    17 automatic lines means that there were certain records

    18 that, in some office, there were files on individual

    19 persons, and as soon as mobilisation is declared,

    20 people are taken from these records automatically and a

    21 list is being made of the persons who would be

    22 considered.

    23 Then a list is made of persons who should be

    24 mobilised during a certain period of time, not only --

    25 Q. Please slow down.



  92. 1 A. But also all the logistics needed are listed

    2 too, that is to say, vehicles, fuel, whatever is

    3 necessary.

    4 Q. In Vitez, there were quite a few Muslims and

    5 Serbs and others who were military conscripts. Did

    6 this make it increasingly difficult to make up lists

    7 and to receive information as to who the military-age

    8 men actually were?

    9 A. Well, at any rate, this was difficult because

    10 there could have been a man who was a Serb, for

    11 example, on this list, because at that time, there was

    12 pronounced migration. Serbs, for example, moved to

    13 some other areas, and very often they would simply

    14 leave without saying good-bye or without reporting to

    15 anyone. Since these records existed from earlier on,

    16 it is only logical that this person could have been in

    17 these records and on these lists, and when these things

    18 are done automatically, his file could have been found

    19 too and his name could have been on the list for

    20 mobilisation. However, the man would not even be there

    21 in that area.

    22 Q. Were there any Croats from Vitez who waged

    23 war in other territories in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

    24 A. Yes, certainly.

    25 Q. Were such persons deleted from the files of



  93. 1 the defence department of Vitez?

    2 A. They were not, more or less, deleted from

    3 these records of the defence department. Those who

    4 were diligent enough to report to this department

    5 simply had it registered there, that they had changed

    6 their place of residence or that they were engaged in

    7 battle elsewhere. Often this was not the case. They

    8 would simply go. They would go to a battlefield of

    9 their own free will. Voluntarily, I mean.

    10 Q. As far as I could understand what you were

    11 saying, you could not have up-to-date records; is that

    12 correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Is this perhaps due to the fact that many

    15 people who were military-age men were in villages too?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. So that was one of the reasons too; right?

    18 A. Yes. Very often, in these post-war days,

    19 people were trying to find jobs and a better living

    20 elsewhere, and they went elsewhere, they went to other

    21 frontlines voluntarily. But in most cases, they did

    22 not realise that they were supposed to report to the

    23 police, the defence department, and the municipality,

    24 wherever, they would simply leave. That made it more

    25 difficult for the persons employed in the defence



  94. 1 department. They could not have known where somebody

    2 was at a given point in time had somebody not reported

    3 to them.

    4 Q. Now I would like to move on to another

    5 question of a similar nature, and that is civil

    6 defence.

    7 Could you please tell us how it operated and

    8 how it was organised before the 16th of April, 1993,

    9 and what happened to the civil defence afterwards?

    10 A. Civil defence was part of the defence

    11 department, it was a segment of the defence

    12 department. I said a few minutes ago that it primarily

    13 dealt with providing accommodation and care for the

    14 needy, for the famished. Very often during the war

    15 they also tried to provide accommodation for refugees

    16 from other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they

    17 distributed food to these people too, to the extent to

    18 which this was necessary. For that purpose, they

    19 established some kind of a mini-staff of their own of

    20 the civil defence where they had their representatives

    21 on the ground; that is to say, in different parts of

    22 Vitez, in villages, so that these activities could be

    23 carried out as quickly as possible and in the best

    24 possible way.

    25 So, for example, food was to be distributed



  95. 1 in Kruscica. Then they would call their representative

    2 there and then they would make arrangements for such

    3 and such a date for food to be distributed in front of

    4 such and such a person's house according to a list that

    5 was provided by one of the representatives of the civil

    6 defence.

    7 When war operations started or, rather, when

    8 the aggression took place in our parts, it became

    9 necessary to establish within the civil defence teams

    10 of persons for --

    11 Q. I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt you at this

    12 point, Mr. Stojak, because I want to put a question to

    13 you and to remind you of something.

    14 Was any decision reached on the 16th or 17th

    15 of April, 1993, by the head of staff of the civilian

    16 defence; do you know about that?

    17 A. Yes. In keeping with the orders issued by

    18 the head of the staff of civil defence, and I imagine

    19 that he had received orders from the head of the crisis

    20 staff of the municipality of Vitez, I imagine that he

    21 gave him the green light to set up this team for

    22 improvements, and I think that this team was

    23 established sometime on the 17th of April; that is to

    24 say, on the second day of the war, because there were

    25 so many persons who were killed.



  96. 1 Q. You mentioned the head of the crisis staff.

    2 Who is this person in the case of the municipality of

    3 Vitez?

    4 A. At that time, it was the legally elected

    5 mayor of the town of Vitez, Mr. Ivan Santic.

    6 Q. So does this office coincide with that of the

    7 head of the crisis staff? Is that to say that the

    8 mayor and the head of the crisis staff are one and the

    9 same person?

    10 A. Yes, yes. These two offices coincide. This

    11 is also done automatically.

    12 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I believe that

    13 this would be a good point to adjourn because we have

    14 quite a few questions left, and I imagine our time is

    15 up. Of course, it is up to the Trial Chamber to rule

    16 on that.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you have a rough idea of

    18 how much time you still need?

    19 MR. SUSAK: Less than an hour, around an

    20 hour.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Do we know how many Defence

    22 counsel intend to cross-examine this witness? Of

    23 course, you may react -- you don't know yet. Yes.

    24 Because, as I say, we must by all means finish tomorrow

    25 with this witness and the other witness as well.



  97. 1 Let me, before we adjourn, first of all,

    2 remind the Prosecutor that tomorrow he should not only

    3 give us some information about the document mentioned

    4 before by Counsel Susak but also about the expert

    5 witness statements.

    6 Also, I would like to let you know about our

    7 plans for the timetable for the months of April and

    8 May. Since this Trial Chamber will -- or some members

    9 of this Trial Chamber will be sitting on other cases,

    10 in April we will be sitting on Kupreskic only the last

    11 week of April, starting on the 26th, only one week;

    12 then in May, the first week of May and last week of

    13 May, the week starting on the 3rd up to the 7th and

    14 then from the 24th to the 28th, just for your

    15 information, because we assume you have to make plans.

    16 We have now been told about the planning for other

    17 cases, and so I thought it only appropriate to let you

    18 know in advance.

    19 So we are adjourned now until tomorrow at

    20 9.00 sharp.

    21 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    22 6.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

    23 the 29th day of January, 1999, at

    24 9.00 a.m.

    25