1. 1 Thursday, 11th February, 1999

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 (Open session)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    6 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran

    7 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago

    8 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and Vladimir Santic.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Terrier, if I could address

    10 you on behalf of all counsel, the position today is

    11 that Judge Cassese is ill. As I hope you've been

    12 informed, he is indisposed and won't be with us for the

    13 rest of the week. Having had notification of this,

    14 what we propose is this, that in order not to delay the

    15 trial unnecessarily and not to waste time, we propose

    16 to hear evidence of any witness who is here by way of

    17 deposition.

    18 This is the practice which has been followed

    19 by another Trial Chamber in the case of Blaskic on a

    20 number of occasions when one of the Trial Chamber has

    21 been ill. There is a power under Rule 77 to hear

    22 deposition evidence, and the effect is this, that in

    23 exceptional circumstances, the Trial Chamber, looking

    24 at Rule 71, at the request of either party and in the

    25 interests of justice may order that a deposition be

  2. 1 taken for use at trial, and the Rule says "... appoint

    2 for that purpose a presiding officer."

    3 The practice which is being followed is, in

    4 fact, the same as during the course of the trial. So

    5 the evidence is taken in the normal way, except that

    6 only two of the Judges are present, and so there would

    7 be examination of the witness, cross-examination, and

    8 re-examination. A record would be made by means of the

    9 transcript and, of course, a video recording, which

    10 would enable the third Judge to view the proceedings.

    11 Now, this appears to be an expeditious way to deal with

    12 the matter, but, of course, it's subject to the

    13 agreement and consent of the parties.

    14 I would add that there's been a further

    15 development which is that we've been told that two of

    16 the witnesses who it was intended to call are, in fact,

    17 snowbound in Sarajevo. We were told that it might be

    18 possible to get them here today but by no means

    19 certain. Because there were a number of people

    20 involved and the necessary arrangements had to be made,

    21 we decided that it was better not to try and bring them

    22 here in rather difficult circumstances, and we've so

    23 advised the Victims and Witnesses Unit, but there is a

    24 third or one other witness.

    25 You will see from Rule 71 that the matter can

  3. 1 only be put in hand by request of a party, but I hope

    2 that might be forthcoming, that a presiding officer

    3 must be appointed. The presiding officers for this

    4 purpose would be the two Judges present, and what is

    5 proposed is that, in effect, the evidence would be

    6 given in the normal way, save that there would only be

    7 two Judges present.

    8 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Your Honours.

    9 The Prosecution also wishes that this trial not be

    10 delayed in any way, and we are in agreement with the

    11 proposal made by this Trial Chamber to proceed today

    12 and perhaps tomorrow under Rule 71.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Terrier, could I take that as

    14 a request by the Prosecution?

    15 MR. TERRIER: Yes, indeed, Mr. President.

    16 This, indeed, is a request, a motion, put forward by

    17 the Prosecution.

    18 JUDGE MAY: It would, of course, be limited

    19 now to one witness who is the witness who's here.

    20 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I believe

    21 perhaps this is a good time to raise this issue.

    22 Yesterday, we received notice that there would possibly

    23 be a second witness, Mr. Blaz. I'm not sure whether

    24 this person has arrived in The Hague today and whether

    25 this person is available to testify or is, perhaps, on

  4. 1 the way. Perhaps the Defence can clarify this issue.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Ms. Slokovic-Glumac,

    3 if I could address you on behalf of the Defence, since

    4 I think this relates to your witnesses. I hope that

    5 notification was given to the Defence that this is what

    6 we propose doing. As I've said, this proposal would

    7 require the consent of the parties and, of course, the

    8 consent of the accused. I very much hope that it can

    9 be resolved. This case needs to be dealt with

    10 expeditiously, and it would appear that this is one way

    11 of at least not wasting more time than necessary. The

    12 matter, of course, if you want to have time to discuss

    13 it, you shall have it, but perhaps you can help us with

    14 this: There is one witness here, as we understand; is

    15 that right, a Mr. Strukar?

    16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Good morning, Your

    17 Honours. As regards the first question and continuing

    18 the trial under these circumstances, I think that my

    19 colleagues will like to address this issue through

    20 Mr. Pavkovic, who is the coordinator of our group, and

    21 I think that they are going to present their proposal.

    22 As regards the witnesses who are here, for

    23 the time being, we only have Zoran Strukar here. He is

    24 the witness that we are supposed to hear today, and

    25 tomorrow we want Plavcic and Blaz, that is to say, two

  5. 1 witnesses, and you have said correctly that they are

    2 not in The Hague for the time being. Indeed, they are

    3 snowbound in Sarajevo, but then depending on whether

    4 they show up today or not, that is what -- the

    5 continuation of the trial will depend on whether they

    6 show up today or not, and I will be examining

    7 Mr. Strukar.

    8 Could we please have a bit of time for

    9 consultations because we did not manage to tell

    10 everyone about the information we received yesterday.

    11 There were only two of us in court, in the actual

    12 building, yesterday when this piece of information

    13 arrived, so not everybody has been notified beforehand,

    14 and I would like you to hear our joint position.

    15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Radovic.

    16 MR. RADOVIC: Before we start consultations,

    17 we would like to acquire an additional piece of

    18 information. Actually, this pertains to the

    19 following: Is Judge Cassese seriously ill or are we

    20 only talking about a few days of absence?

    21 JUDGE MAY: The position, as we understand

    22 it, is that he will be back next week. Now, as I said

    23 earlier, it's very much to be hoped that this procedure

    24 could be followed in order to save time. I think the

    25 position as far as the other witnesses are concerned is

  6. 1 that they won't be here until next week, so we are

    2 effectively talking about one witness, but inquiries

    3 can be made.

    4 How long do you want, 20 minutes? Twenty

    5 minutes then.

    6 --- Recess taken at 9.17 a.m.

    7 --- On resuming at 9.38 a.m.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Yes?

    9 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

    10 The Defence hopes that Judge Cassese's health is not

    11 anything to worry about and that he will return amongst

    12 our ranks very soon. The Defence is very interested in

    13 continuing the proceedings, and in that respect, it

    14 supports what the Prosecution has said.

    15 We feel that under the newly arisen

    16 circumstances, that we can continue the examination of

    17 witnesses this week, and on Monday, we would see how

    18 the situation stands with Judge Cassese. If he does

    19 not return, we will be able to see whether we are going

    20 to continue proceedings or not. In this connection, we

    21 do feel that we could continue proceedings and

    22 examination of witnesses regarding point 1, that is to

    23 say, the general facts, apart from the fact that the

    24 Defence counsel of Mr. Papic feels that when his

    25 witnesses are called and the other Defence counsel as

  7. 1 well, when it comes to concrete charges, that a full

    2 composition of the Trial Chamber would be advisable and

    3 that they would like proceedings to continue with a

    4 full Trial Chamber.

    5 We should also like to take note of the

    6 following: It has been the practice of this Tribunal

    7 that under circumstances of this kind, a trial be

    8 continued. But we seem to feel that there is a

    9 significant difference in this regard, and that is that

    10 the Presiding Judge is absent, which is a different

    11 case to some other cases where members of the Trial

    12 Chamber were absent, and we don't think that this is a

    13 small matter.

    14 Your Honours, that would be the stand of the

    15 Defence in view of the newly arisen situation.

    16 If I may, I should like to ask you now, as

    17 you have already given me the floor, to assess the

    18 following; that is to say, I have a question that I

    19 wanted to put to you yesterday.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Pavkovic, before you do that,

    21 let me just deal with what you have said already.

    22 This measure is a temporary measure. Were

    23 Judge Cassese not back on Monday, and it is anticipated

    24 that he would be, then, of course, the position would

    25 have to be reviewed. We have in mind that it is the

  8. 1 Presiding Judge who is absent, and you are right in

    2 that, and, of course, were we to get to the evidence on

    3 the other counts other than Count 1, then, of course,

    4 different circumstances might arise. But may I take it

    5 then that the accused consent to our hearing evidence

    6 by deposition and that we hear the one witness who is

    7 here and any others who can be brought this week?

    8 Could you confirm that, please?

    9 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, I can confirm that,

    10 precisely as you have said, and as far as that goes, we

    11 can continue, yes.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We shall make an

    13 order under Rule 71 appointing the Judges who are

    14 present as Presiding Judges for the purpose of hearing

    15 deposition evidence of the witness who is here and any

    16 other witnesses who can be brought.

    17 Before we go on, there is one matter about

    18 that, and that is that the Victims and Witnesses Unit

    19 are, I believe, waiting to hear what is decided about

    20 the witnesses who are in Sarajevo. I think our view

    21 would be that, if possible, they should be brought, but

    22 if that is impracticable, then, of course, we shall

    23 have to adjourn early. I think that would be the best

    24 way to approach it. There are problems, clearly, at

    25 the airport with the snow, there are problems in terms

  9. 1 of time as to whether the witnesses can, in fact,

    2 physically get here or not, and I would be grateful if

    3 that message could be conveyed to the Victims and

    4 Witnesses Unit.

    5 Does anybody want to say anything about

    6 that? Yes, Mrs. Glumac?

    7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, during

    8 the break, Mr. Vaananen from the unit was here, and he

    9 said that it is practically impossible to bring the

    10 people in today, in the course of the day, and that

    11 they would prefer them to come tomorrow with the other

    12 witnesses who will be arriving for Monday. There would

    13 be problems if they did turn up late tonight in The

    14 Hague. One of them is a serious diabetic, so this

    15 would perhaps be too much for them, and they have asked

    16 this to be borne in mind, and so perhaps Monday would

    17 be a better day for those witnesses, and if Judge

    18 Cassese does not appear, then we could continue with

    19 the presentation of evidence for those two witnesses.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will hear the one

    21 witness this week and review the position on Monday, it

    22 being understood the witnesses will all be here on

    23 Monday.

    24 Mr. Pavkovic?

    25 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I would very

  10. 1 much like to carry on proceedings, but there is one

    2 thing that cannot be postponed, and I would like to ask

    3 you to bear with me for a few minutes. I am afraid

    4 that the question that I want to pose might turn into a

    5 problem, and I cannot solve it together in consultation

    6 with the Prosecution, so I am asking for your help in

    7 this matter.

    8 What I want to ask is the following: Last

    9 week, or the week before, the Trial Chamber made a

    10 decision according to which the Defence of Vladimir

    11 Santic, the accused, that it was to enable the

    12 Prosecutor's investigators to look into the

    13 circumstance of alibi. The Defence in that sense, in

    14 order to implement this Court decision, undertook a

    15 series of technical and organisational measures in the

    16 meantime. With the Prosecution, we discussed this

    17 matter on several occasions. We discussed the

    18 modalities in which this decision could be put into

    19 practice, and we adopted the suggestions made by the

    20 Prosecution, namely, that this discussion take place

    21 neither in the homes of the witnesses or in any

    22 official institutions, we also took into account

    23 security measures, and when we felt that we had done

    24 everything in our power to implement the Court decision

    25 and to enable the investigators to have their contacts,

  11. 1 we informed the Prosecution in writing that on the 20th

    2 of this month, when the court adjourns, that this talk

    3 be held, this meeting be held.

    4 However, yesterday we received an answer from

    5 the Prosecution, we received their letter, in fact,

    6 informing us -- we were informed and surprised at its

    7 contents -- the following: First of all, the

    8 Prosecutor refers to security measures, and the

    9 Prosecution considers that the talks that we have

    10 envisaged for Hotel Vitez, that the Hotel Vitez is not

    11 a sufficiently safe place, and the Prosecution insists

    12 that this meeting take place in Sarajevo, and that if

    13 we do not agree to that, to that venue, he will

    14 consider us not prepared to cooperate and that he will

    15 then be against having these individuals brought before

    16 the Trial Chamber.

    17 I can understand this stand, but I don't

    18 think it is a justified one, especially as this seems

    19 to be a sort of ultimatum to the Defence which has so

    20 far done everything in its power to implement the

    21 decision, and we do not feel that this kind of resolute

    22 ultimatum is in place.

    23 We can understand, of course, the reasons put

    24 forward, and we do realise that the investigators feel

    25 a certain amount of uncertainty, but I can assure you

  12. 1 with full responsibility that there are no objective

    2 reasons for this; that is to say, those which would

    3 justify their anxieties and which would stop them from

    4 having this meeting in Vitez, all the more so as we can

    5 do nothing further at this point in the way of

    6 organisation.

    7 I must also remind the Trial Chamber that

    8 when the Prosecution uses the term and refers to

    9 "security" and "safety," this Honourable Trial Chamber

    10 made a decision a little while ago to visit Ahmici and

    11 it did not feel in jeopardy and did not consider that

    12 security measures were something that should postpone

    13 that visit.

    14 I would also like to mention another point in

    15 this regard, and that is that we must bear in mind the

    16 interests of the witnesses themselves in the sense that

    17 they are witnesses who live in the area, and that all

    18 three of them, I think, are from Vitez, and that they

    19 do not feel secure in Sarajevo either. This Trial

    20 Chamber made a decision for the free passage of all

    21 witnesses, including these three witnesses, and this

    22 applies to their coming to court as well and spending

    23 time in the Tribunal and returning home. So we cannot

    24 accept what the Prosecution is offering.

    25 Finally, I feel that we can settle the matter

  13. 1 in the following way; that is to say, as we agreed on

    2 in principle, to have the interview take place in Vitez

    3 or, alternatively, that the witnesses directly, prior

    4 to coming to the Trial Chamber, have a meeting with the

    5 Prosecution and enable the Prosecution investigators to

    6 hold the talks and meetings they need.

    7 I hope that you will understand the reasons

    8 for which I have had to take the floor on this issue

    9 because it is a question that we cannot settle

    10 ourselves and our time is almost up because it is a

    11 matter which takes place next week because, of course,

    12 we wish to implement in full the trial decision. Thank

    13 you.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Terrier, before you begin,

    15 clearly we cannot make an order at the moment because

    16 the Chamber as constituted is not the Trial Chamber,

    17 but perhaps we can facilitate a resolution of this.

    18 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, yes. I would

    19 like to inform this Tribunal, relay a certain amount of

    20 information to this Tribunal, and perhaps allay some of

    21 the fears that Mr. Pavkovic has and to explain that the

    22 proposal made by Mr. Pavkovic is not realistic.

    23 I would like to remind Mr. Pavkovic that we

    24 are in a situation in which the Tribunal and the

    25 accused have agreed to hear the witnesses in the

  14. 1 defence of alibi for Mr. Santic, although we are now in

    2 a very irregular situation with regards to the Rules.

    3 Notice of the defence of alibi was not respected within

    4 the time limits provided by the Rules of Procedure and

    5 Evidence. Nonetheless, in order to ensure that the

    6 rights of the Defence are guaranteed or are respected,

    7 the Trial Chamber agreed to hear these witnesses

    8 subject, however, to the possibility of the Prosecution

    9 meeting with these witnesses before they appear before

    10 the Trial Chamber.

    11 We sent to Mr. Pavkovic, and I believe that

    12 the Trial Chamber also received a copy of this,

    13 proposals in which these witnesses, the Defence

    14 witnesses, and Defence of Mr. Santic, these meetings

    15 were to be taking place. Mr. Santic and Mr. Pavkovic

    16 have proposed that the lawyer for Mr. Santic, in

    17 addition to a representative, be present at the

    18 interview, and that the interview be recorded and that

    19 the recording be disclosed immediately to Mr. Pavkovic.

    20 What we request, however, and I believe that

    21 the Tribunal may understand, and I hope that

    22 Mr. Pavkovic must understand this as well, is that in

    23 all serenity, in all security -- an environment of

    24 security and serenity must also be there for our

    25 investigators and for Defence witnesses.

  15. 1 The only question which can be raised here

    2 today in relation to what Mr. Pavkovic has just stated

    3 is the question of the place in which this interview

    4 would take place. Mr. Pavkovic has requested that this

    5 meeting take place at Hotel Vitez. According to the

    6 information at our disposal and according to the

    7 information we received from SFOR located in the area

    8 of Busovaca, it is not at all appropriate that this

    9 meeting take place there for security reasons because

    10 SFOR would have to deploy a large number of measures to

    11 secure those present; it would be very difficult and

    12 very dangerous for the city of Vitez. We must also

    13 keep in mind the fact that we have to also bring in

    14 video recording equipment for this conference and that

    15 this would have to be organised with great care.

    16 Therefore, we request and we have great hopes

    17 that this meeting will take place in the Office of the

    18 Prosecutor in Sarajevo where we can have the absolute

    19 guarantee of security. I can understand that

    20 Mr. Pavkovic may doubt this, but we can also assure the

    21 transportation of the witness, if necessary, to

    22 Sarajevo, and return the witness to Vitez. We believe

    23 that this discussion about the place of meeting is

    24 unfortunate and we hope that we can come to an

    25 agreement, and we hope that Mr. Pavkovic will

  16. 1 understand that we cannot go to Hotel Vitez with all

    2 the equipment we have need of and that it will be very

    3 necessary that this take place in Sarajevo and that

    4 there will be no inconvenience whatsoever for the

    5 Defence witness. In addition to that, we will ensure

    6 an environment of serenity in this meeting, and this

    7 will enable the debate to continue before this Tribunal

    8 in serenity as well.

    9 This is the type of response that we sent to

    10 Mr. Pavkovic. This is not an ultimatum by any

    11 reasons. This is simply a response. We hope that

    12 Mr. Pavkovic will understand our resolve on this

    13 issue.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Pavkovic, as I said earlier,

    15 in the absence of the Presiding Judge, clearly the

    16 Trial Chamber as presently constituted can make no sort

    17 of order at all. But having heard both sides, we would

    18 recommend that you try and find a compromise in this

    19 matter, that the Prosecution objections to Hotel Vitez

    20 you've heard set out, and we've heard the objections of

    21 your witnesses to going to the Office of the

    22 Prosecutor. Now, it would seem to me that this is a

    23 matter which should be resolved between the parties.

    24 It's not a matter, really, for the Trial Chamber to

    25 rule on. And we invite you to pursue the usual

  17. 1 channels vigorously, and try to resolve the matter.

    2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. We'll try and do

    3 that. We are not contesting the matter, but the road

    4 to Sarajevo and the sojourn in Sarajevo, and to ensure

    5 the protective measures that we consider the witness

    6 merits and must be the type that was afforded to the

    7 witnesses by the Tribunal.

    8 But we do, of course, accept your

    9 suggestions, Mr. President, and shall do our utmost to

    10 resolve the issue and find a compromise solution,

    11 because it is in our interest to do so.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

    13 Now, is there anything else before we hear

    14 the witness?

    15 Very well. Let the witness be brought in.

    16 (The witness entered court)

    17 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    19 truth.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you would like to sit

    21 down.

    22 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    23 Mr. President.


    25 Examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

  18. 1 Q. Would you please introduce yourself, tell us

    2 your name, where you were born and when?

    3 A. My name is Zoran Strukar. I was born in

    4 Vitez on the 16th of April, 1961.

    5 Q. Which schooling have you had?

    6 A. I completed secondary school in Sarajevo, the

    7 centre for cadres training of the Ministry of the

    8 Interior, which lasts for four years.

    9 Q. Before the war, where were you employed?

    10 A. I was employed in the police station in

    11 Vitez.

    12 Q. What job did you hold?

    13 A. For two or three years I worked as a

    14 policeman in town, traffic policeman, and then I worked

    15 on the ground, and then I went to a special course, to

    16 attend a special course in Sarajevo. I worked there

    17 until 1991, and then I started working as a policeman

    18 in town again until 1992, and then I also went to take

    19 another course in Sarajevo.

    20 Q. Would you please stop at this point. You

    21 said that you completed certain courses, and that that

    22 is why you worked as a signals officer, communications

    23 officer?

    24 A. Yes. Yes, that implies receiving telegrams,

    25 working at the telephone exchange.

  19. 1 Q. And you did these jobs in Vitez; is that

    2 right?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. You also said that in 1991, you worked as a

    5 policeman?

    6 A. Yes. Yes, perhaps in mid-1991.

    7 Q. Who was the chief of police at that time?

    8 A. That's when elections were held, and in

    9 Vitez, it was agreed to have an appropriate allocation

    10 of jobs in keeping with the outcome of the elections.

    11 The commander of the police was a Muslim, and the chief

    12 of police was a Croat. So it was Pero Skopljak and

    13 Saban Mahmutovic, respectively.

    14 Q. That is to say the two top posts in the

    15 police were divided according to the outcome of the

    16 elections; is that right?

    17 A. Yes, that's right, according to the outcome

    18 of the elections.

    19 Q. Pero Skopljak: Do you remember when he came

    20 to the post of chief of police in Vitez?

    21 A. I don't know the exact date. I know that

    22 these elections were held, and that is when he came

    23 in. I don't know the date.

    24 Q. Was it 1991? The elections were at the end

    25 of 1990, so was it 1991?

  20. 1 A. Well, probably the end of 1991. I don't

    2 know. I don't know. I'm not sure.

    3 Q. And Saban Mahmutovic, who was commander of

    4 the police, he was a Muslim; is that right?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And as regards policemen, how were policemen

    7 employed in the police? Did people pay attention to

    8 ethnic composition there?

    9 A. Yes, yes, always in terms of the numbers of

    10 the Muslim, Croat, and Serb populations, and the number

    11 of the policemen on the force was always proportionate

    12 to that. So this was a tradition from the earlier

    13 days.

    14 Q. The ethnic composition of the police

    15 basically matched the ethnic composition of the

    16 population; is that right?

    17 A. Yes. Yes. About half/half.

    18 Q. Do you recall at that time how many policemen

    19 there were on the force in the police station in Vitez?

    20 A. About 27.

    21 Q. At the end of 1991, when the war had already

    22 broken out in Croatia, did something happen in relation

    23 to the police in Vitez?

    24 A. No, nothing. Nothing really happened.

    25 People did their regular work.

  21. 1 Q. Did something happen to the stocks of weapons

    2 held by the police?

    3 A. While I was still working on communications,

    4 telegrams were coming in from Sarajevo saying that

    5 weapons from the police station should be withdrawn to

    6 Sarajevo. And the answer was that we had warehouses at

    7 the Princip factory --

    8 Q. Just a minute, please. Since you're already

    9 describing this, who sent this telegram to the police

    10 station in Vitez, and what was exactly stated in this

    11 telegram, and why were weapons taken away?

    12 A. The telegram arrived from Sarajevo from the

    13 Republican SUP, and the problem allegedly was that the

    14 police station did not have adequate warehouses for

    15 storing the weapons that we had, and then these weapons

    16 would have to be returned to Sarajevo. That was the

    17 alleged reason. Then the answer was that we do have an

    18 explosives factory called Princip, and it does have

    19 appropriate warehouses for this explosive that they

    20 make and that we can also store our own weapons there.

    21 However, after that, another telegram came from

    22 Sarajevo saying that regardless of that, the weapons

    23 had to be returned to Sarajevo.

    24 Q. What about other police stations? Did they

    25 receive the same order? Were weapons collected from

  22. 1 all the police stations in Central Bosnia?

    2 A. Yes. Yes. This was a circular telegram.

    3 Every day there were telegrams that were sent to all

    4 police stations, and it said "To All" in the heading,

    5 so everybody received the same telegrams.

    6 Q. What was the decision in response to this

    7 request, after you said that you had appropriate

    8 warehouses for these weapons?

    9 A. The answer was that we would store these

    10 weapons at this warehouse. However, they said that

    11 they wanted the weapons returned after all. However,

    12 Pero Skopljak mobilised the reserve militia, it was

    13 called in those days, the reserve police, at various

    14 local communities. From three local communities, he

    15 got people and formed a police station. And the

    16 weapons that we had in our warehouse was given to these

    17 reserve policemen. And the town also had a reserve

    18 police station consisting of reservists, and they were

    19 also given weapons.

    20 Q. So in a way, this meant an activation of the

    21 reserve police force; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And you also said that at different local

    24 communities, he would bring various reserve police

    25 stations together; is that right?

  23. 1 A. Yes. Before, every local community had a

    2 reserve police station of its own; but then Pero made a

    3 single police station out of three previous ones, and

    4 in this way he managed to distribute weapons to all.

    5 Q. What kind of weapons were distributed then?

    6 A. I think that every station got a sub-machine

    7 gun and also some automatic rifles, and the rest were

    8 semi-automatic rifles with ammunition.

    9 Q. Is that the way in which weapons were

    10 distributed in the surrounding villages around Vitez?

    11 A. Yes. Yes, in all the local communities.

    12 Q. And these weapons, is that the way that

    13 Ahmici, their local community received weapons too?

    14 A. Yes, Ahmici belonged to Nadioci. Actually

    15 these were three local communities, local communities

    16 Ahmici, Santici, and Nadioci and they covered this

    17 single police station.

    18 Q. These weapons were handed over to them at the

    19 same time; is that right?

    20 A. Yes, yes, everybody equally. They also

    21 received uniforms, I think, reserve policemen uniforms,

    22 and they were blue.

    23 Q. Do you remember who was commander of the

    24 reserve police force in Ahmici?

    25 A. I do remember. It was Zahid Ahmic, because I

  24. 1 was commander of the reserve police force in Vitez, so

    2 we cooperated. We matched the numbers of the weapons,

    3 and some of the weapons were out of order and they had

    4 to be returned, so we would see each other every now

    5 and then.

    6 Q. Could you say precisely when this happened,

    7 when these weapons were handed out?

    8 A. I think this was the end of '91 or autumn,

    9 somewhere towards the end. I don't know the exact

    10 date.

    11 Q. Very well. While we're on the subject of

    12 weapons, this is a bit out of context, but tell me, do

    13 you know anything about how the Territorial Defence

    14 weapons were handed out? This was the weaponry owned

    15 by the police?

    16 A. Yes, the police.

    17 Q. But there were also weapons in the area of

    18 Central Bosnia that were held by the Territorial

    19 Defence, is that right, or do you know whether the arms

    20 of the Territorial Defence were taken away from them?

    21 A. I don't know. I'm not sure about that. I

    22 don't know.

    23 Q. For example, what were the weapons that were

    24 at Slimena?

    25 A. That was held by the JNA. There was a

  25. 1 weapons warehouse. I don't know whose weapons these

    2 were, but I realised later that these were rifles and

    3 sub-machine guns, and other things, but I didn't really

    4 know who they belonged to.

    5 Q. But you do not know whether these were

    6 Territorial Defence weapons?

    7 A. That, I did not know.

    8 Q. All right. Then we won't go into that. Do

    9 you know how these weapons were given away, I mean,

    10 from Slimena?

    11 A. When the warehouses were liberated, I heard

    12 on the news that these weapons would be shared equally

    13 between the Muslims and the Croats. This had happened

    14 in the morning, I mean, these warehouses were taken in

    15 the morning. So the locals, the citizens, took their

    16 own cars and went to these warehouses. Some were

    17 wounded. Some of them were wounded by mines as they

    18 happened to come across them, and then Saban came

    19 across a patrol with Dzemo Bektas, Hrustanovic --

    20 Q. Just a minute, please. You have to bear in

    21 mind the fact that this is being interpreted, so please

    22 speak slowly. Could you please tell us this from the

    23 very beginning? Who sent who to Slimena and who had

    24 these weapons distributed?

    25 A. Saban Mahmutovic sent Dzemo Hrustanovic out

  26. 1 on a patrol to regulate traffic because there was a

    2 traffic jam up there around these warehouses, and I

    3 heard later on that these weapons would be shared

    4 equally between the Muslims and the Croats. I had a

    5 meeting about this somewhere.

    6 Q. Saban Mahmutovic at that time was commander

    7 of the police, and this Dzemo Hrustanovic, who was he,

    8 a policeman?

    9 A. Yes, he was a policeman.

    10 Q. Was he a Muslim?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And he was sent to Slimena to check what was

    13 going on in terms of the distribution of weapons?

    14 A. No, to regulate traffic.

    15 Q. All right, to regulate traffic then. Were

    16 people allowed to come with their own cars and take

    17 weapons away?

    18 A. At first, it was allowed, but afterwards, it

    19 was forbidden. However, again, there were some

    20 vehicles that managed to get in because they knew the

    21 people who were up there or whatever.

    22 Q. What happened to you? You said that you went

    23 to Sarajevo for further education. This was in 1992,

    24 and I interrupted you at that point.

    25 A. Yes. In 1992, we needed two criminology

  27. 1 technicians for the Vitez station, and Zlatko Kader

    2 (phoen) and I went there. We went to attend a course

    3 in Sarajevo, and we were there until April 1992 when

    4 the blockade of Sarajevo started. Edo and I managed to

    5 get out somehow, and we came back to Vitez and reported

    6 at our station. We reported back to work. Since then,

    7 I've been working as a criminology technician at the

    8 police station.

    9 Q. Who was this person that was with you? What

    10 was the name?

    11 A. Edo Zlotrg, I think.

    12 Q. Is he a Muslim or a Croat?

    13 A. A Muslim.

    14 Q. He also worked with you as the criminology

    15 technician after that; is that right?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. So you returned to Vitez in April 1992. Tell

    18 us, what was the situation like in Vitez then as

    19 regards security?

    20 A. As regards security, there was a high rate of

    21 crime. There were more burglaries, car thefts.

    22 Documents were forged. Vehicles that were stolen could

    23 not be legalised, so, therefore, the documents for

    24 these vehicles were forged so that the perpetrators of

    25 these offences would be protected from the police.

  28. 1 Then there was also looting and robberies and arson,

    2 and people started wearing uniforms.

    3 Q. All right. Just a minute, please. Could you

    4 tell me whether there was shooting in town? Were there

    5 such phenomena?

    6 A. Well, from April onwards, there was more and

    7 more of it.

    8 Q. From the point of view of security and

    9 safety, how would you assess the situation from April

    10 '92 until April '93, throughout that year?

    11 A. Month after month, it became increasingly

    12 difficult to work and live there. There were many

    13 groups that had weapons. There was shooting.

    14 Explosives were thrown at various buildings, in the

    15 street. It was not safe.

    16 Q. At that time, you worked in the crime section

    17 of the police; is that right?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. In your opinion, what were the reasons that

    20 led to this kind of a deterioration of the security and

    21 safety situation in Vitez?

    22 A. In my opinion, the major reason for this was

    23 the fact that people wore uniforms, and the young men

    24 who wore uniforms would join the units that appeared at

    25 that time. PPNs, that's what they were called. We, as

  29. 1 the civilian police, could not do anything about the

    2 military, and when we would come for an on-site

    3 investigation or if we were informed through various

    4 operations and if we realised that someone had done

    5 something, but then if this person would show an ID

    6 saying that he belonged to the military, then we would

    7 have to hand them over to the military, so we couldn't

    8 really do our job.

    9 Q. When you say that the reason for increasing

    10 the crime rate was the fact that people wore uniforms,

    11 you are actually saying that the civilian police could

    12 not intervene vis-a-vis persons in uniform; is that

    13 right?

    14 A. Yes, yes, yes. We were not in charge.

    15 Q. Also, you said that in Vitez, people with

    16 weapons appeared who set up their own groups?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And these groups were PPNs, you said. What

    19 does "PPN" mean?

    20 A. They called themselves PPNs --

    21 THE INTERPRETER: Defence counsel is

    22 overlapping the witness.

    23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I'm sorry.

    24 A. These are units for special purposes, special

    25 purposes units.

  30. 1 Q. In which way were these units organised; do

    2 you know?

    3 A. They were organised independently. One man

    4 would get a few more men, and he'd have uniforms for

    5 them. In Vitez, there was Darko Kraljevic who

    6 organised the HOS. They wore black uniforms, and later

    7 on, this HOS got a new name, Vitezovi.

    8 Young men joined this group. They were

    9 looking for glory. They wanted to prove themselves,

    10 and these people who had already carried out certain

    11 actions were there idols, and they tried to follow

    12 them. They had very short haircuts so that they would

    13 look like film stars, and they also had a lot of

    14 ammunition, and they would get drunk in restaurants and

    15 cafes. They did not observe the working hours of

    16 restaurants and cafes, which was until 10.00 or 11.00

    17 in our town, and nobody could get them out of these

    18 cafes and restaurants. When they would get drunk, they

    19 would start shooting, and that's how others were

    20 wounded. There was material damage, and explosives

    21 were thrown. They did all sorts of things.

    22 Q. The Vitezovi, you said that they were a

    23 special purposes unit; is that right?

    24 A. Yes, yes, that was in Vitez, but every town

    25 had a unit of its own of this nature, and the PPN

  31. 1 members respected the territory of other units. So

    2 those who were engaged in crime in Vitez did not

    3 interfere in Nova Bila and vice versa, only if there

    4 was an action which they considered to be important,

    5 such as smuggling of cars or car theft, whatever

    6 perhaps they would care about altogether because they

    7 would have a joint interest involved.

    8 Q. What about in other places? You said that

    9 the Vitezovi existed in Vitez. In other places, there

    10 were other units, other special purposes units. Do you

    11 know what they were called?

    12 A. For example, in Nova Bila, I know that they

    13 were called the Zuti or yellow. This was a nickname

    14 given to their leader Andric who was nicknamed Zuti.

    15 Later on, he set up his own military police. Then we

    16 have the Tvrtkovci and the Jokeri. The Jokeri were

    17 members of the military police as an anti-terrorist

    18 unit. Then there were the Munja, the light assault

    19 unit, and so on.

    20 Q. Were there any conflicts between these

    21 groups?

    22 A. Yes, there were. In Nova Bila, to quote an

    23 example, the Zuti had a conflict with the other group

    24 led by Tuka, Zoran Tuka. In that conflict, Tuka shot

    25 at the leader of the Zuti, that is to say, Zuti

  32. 1 himself, and wounded him in the back, and he is still

    2 an invalid and has to use an invalid chair. The Zuti

    3 group, in retaliation, set up an ambush for Tuka, and

    4 they killed him in that ambush.

    5 Q. So there was a mutual settling of accounts?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Do you know why these clashes broke out?

    8 What were the interests of these groups?

    9 A. Usually they were material interests, that is

    10 to say, theft and money relations, unsettled money

    11 matters. Those were the principal causes of the

    12 conflicts.

    13 Q. In these groups, were there any out-and-out

    14 criminals?

    15 A. Yes, there were criminals in the groups with

    16 criminal records. Yes, there were. Yes, indeed.

    17 Q. Did these units, the Vitezovi and Zuti units,

    18 the Tvrtkovci, were they involved in crime of any kind

    19 at that time already?

    20 A. Yes, they were, but we as the civilian

    21 police, even if we did know of things, were unable to

    22 undertake any action because they were the military.

    23 Q. Did they have any weapons, and if so, what

    24 type?

    25 A. Yes, they did. They had weapons,

  33. 1 short-barreled weapons and long rifles, and I saw some

    2 of these black rifles for the first time. They have a

    3 special handle in the middle. Darko, for example, had

    4 a rifle which was called the glycerine rifle with a

    5 short barrel and a drum where the bullets were fed

    6 into, as you would for a hunting rifle, and then he

    7 would go about shooting in town whenever he felt like

    8 it, taking potshots.

    9 Q. So they were the best-armed members, they had

    10 rifles that you see --

    11 A. Well, compared to us, yes, they were the

    12 best-armed groups.

    13 Q. Did these units go to the battlefield?

    14 A. Yes, they did, very often, as far as I know.

    15 They would go to Jajce and to Vlasic, I think, and when

    16 they would return, that's what we knew about, mostly

    17 they would shoot around town, start singing, start

    18 drinking, and then this would go on until the morning.

    19 Q. In the course of the war, that is to say,

    20 when the war had already begun, did these units take

    21 part in the fighting?

    22 A. Yes, they did. They took part in manning the

    23 defence lines. If the defence line would fall, they

    24 would go there to help out, and they would also engage

    25 in some breakthrough operations and so on.

  34. 1 Q. Were they only at the frontline or did they

    2 go to win over territory and establish their

    3 frontlines?

    4 A. They would win over territory and establish

    5 frontlines, and if they took over a defence line, they

    6 would stay there until the morning until the trenches

    7 were dug and then, when the locals turned up, they

    8 would withdraw, and they would also withdraw sometimes

    9 before this happened but, of course, the enemy didn't

    10 realise this.

    11 Q. You said that they had their commanders and

    12 that these were usually the people that formed the

    13 groups in the first place. Were they in any kind of

    14 military composition, at least some of these units? Do

    15 you know anything about that?

    16 A. As far as I know, they were all separate

    17 forces. Only the Jokers perhaps. They came under the

    18 jurisdiction of the military police. But I don't know

    19 the situation very well. I do know that their members

    20 were military policemen.

    21 Q. Do you know whether Blaskic, or the Operative

    22 Zone and Blaskic as its commander, had any influence on

    23 what the Vitezovi did? Could he order, for example,

    24 the Vitezovi or the Zuti to undertake an operation of

    25 any kind?

  35. 1 A. No, he could not order this. Only perhaps in

    2 the course of the war he was able to come to an

    3 agreement of some kind with them, but he could not

    4 order them to do anything.

    5 Q. What about Cerkez, the Vitez Brigade? Did

    6 they act together with these units, the Vitezovi in

    7 particular; do you know anything about that?

    8 A. Perhaps they had an agreement to engage in

    9 some operation, but I don't really know.

    10 Q. Very well then. Let us move on and look at

    11 the conduct of the civilian police during that time.

    12 You said that you were stopped in your work and in

    13 undertaking any action towards these individuals

    14 because they were not under your jurisdiction; is that

    15 correct?

    16 A. Yes, it is.

    17 Q. However, what happened, for example, if a

    18 theft was reported or a car theft was reported or any

    19 attacks of any kind; did you investigate?

    20 A. Whenever we received information that a crime

    21 had been committed, a criminal offence of any kind, we

    22 would go on site to establish what had happened and

    23 there was always somebody on duty, an official on duty,

    24 to receive complaints of this kind from civilians, and

    25 then we would decide whether the crime squad was to be

  36. 1 called out to investigate. If they were petty

    2 offences, petty thefts, or if law and order were

    3 disturbed, then it would be the policemen who would go

    4 out to investigate; but if it was a more serious crime,

    5 like breaking and entering or any other kind of assault

    6 and battery or anything of that kind, then we would be

    7 called. Usually the perpetrators were unidentified,

    8 and we would go and collect clues and take witness

    9 statements, eyewitness statements, and so on.

    10 If a perpetrator had been identified, we

    11 would take him into custody, bring him into the police

    12 station, and if we found that he was a member of a

    13 military unit, we had to turn him over to the military

    14 police. If he was not, then we would investigate the

    15 matter, question him, and take the necessary procedure.

    16 Q. So you performed your duties to the best of

    17 your ability as far as you were able to. Did you have

    18 any forms to fill in?

    19 A. Yes, I had a book, a record, a register of

    20 the crimes committed, and when we would file a criminal

    21 complaint against the perpetrators, this was recorded

    22 in a separate recordkeeping book or register.

    23 Q. Will you tell us in what way you uncovered a

    24 very large chain of car smugglers and what the

    25 repercussions of that were?

  37. 1 JUDGE MAY: I wonder where we're going.

    2 Mrs. Glumac, I haven't stopped you so far, but we're in

    3 1992 and we are now about to hear about an

    4 investigation as to car smuggling. Is that going to

    5 help us, really, to decide this case?

    6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I think

    7 that it is because a chain was uncovered by the

    8 civilian police, a chain of smugglers, car smugglers,

    9 and this operation ended in that all the special

    10 purposes units attacked the police station, in fact

    11 freed the perpetrators, and this is going to have links

    12 with what the witness will be saying later on. In

    13 fact, the operations undertaken by the civilian police

    14 and the way in which it tried to introduce law and

    15 order were stopped by the special purposes units, and

    16 the way they did this will be seen from the report that

    17 is going to be presented here. So this whole testimony

    18 has to do with a testimony made in the first part of

    19 the trial when it was stated that the situation was

    20 very uncertain, exclusively for the Muslims, and this

    21 testimony -- this witness is showing that the security

    22 situation was at a generally very low level and that it

    23 was unsafe and that everybody was subjected to this

    24 situation, the Muslims, the Croats, the Serbs, and the

    25 members of the different services that existed.

  38. 1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Then let us move then

    2 as quickly as possible to the attack on the police

    3 station rather than the details of any investigation,

    4 unless they're relevant.

    5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I apologise,

    6 Mr. President. I wasn't going to go into the details

    7 of this, just the results, what happened as a result.

    8 I should like to ask the usher now to

    9 distribute this document to the Trial Chamber and the

    10 witness.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D75/2.


    13 Q. Mr. Strukar, while the document is being

    14 studied, would you tell us what knowledge you arrived

    15 at when you did your police investigating in 1993?

    16 A. We found that the young men from Novi Bila --

    17 from Nova Bila were smuggling cars and falsifying

    18 documents, forging documents, and that we undertook an

    19 action to impound the vehicles and take into custody

    20 the perpetrators. Sveda, who was the main culprit, was

    21 taken into custody, and a group arrived at the police

    22 station from Novi Bila with three-barreled guns and a

    23 car to set Ferdo free.

    24 Q. There seems to be a mistranslation. Just one

    25 moment, please. So when Ferdo Gazibaric was taken into

  39. 1 custody, who came to the police station?

    2 A. A group of Zuti came to the police station

    3 with a truck with a three-barreled gun and a bus full

    4 of its members.

    5 Q. That means the members of the special

    6 purposes unit belonging to Zuti; is that correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. What happened next?

    9 A. As we knew that they would be arriving, we

    10 prepared to meet them and tackle them, and when they

    11 arrived, Zuti got out, and when he saw what was being

    12 prepared, he said that there should be a negotiation,

    13 and Pasko, who was the head of the regional military

    14 police did negotiate.

    15 Q. What's Pasko's name?

    16 A. I think his name was Ljubicic, I'm not quite

    17 sure. He negotiated with him, and he said that an

    18 agreement had been reached, and when the police

    19 dispersed, Zuti, with a team of men, stormed the police

    20 station, bashed down all the doors, beat up the officer

    21 on duty, took the vehicle, asked where Ferdo was. He

    22 said that he was in the Kaonik camp. He went with

    23 Pasko to Kaonik camp and freed Ferdo, and they went off

    24 in the direction of Nova Bila.

    25 Q. This Ferdo Gazibaric was arrested on that

  40. 1 occasion; is that correct?

    2 A. Right.

    3 Q. And he was actually freed from Kaonik; is

    4 that what you said?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And the police had already taken this Ferdo

    7 Gazibaric to Kaonik as soon as he was arrested; is that

    8 right?

    9 A. Yes. As soon as he was arrested, he was

    10 taken to Kaonik.

    11 Q. All right. Would you please have a look at

    12 this report now?

    13 Can you tell me whether this report describes

    14 the event that you just told us about?

    15 A. Yes. Yes, it does.

    16 Q. Do you recall whether you took part in taking

    17 Ferdo Gazibaric into custody and whether you took part

    18 in this entire affair?

    19 A. I did take part in the discovery of this

    20 crime, but I did not go to Kaonik, take this person

    21 into custody. I went home after work.

    22 Q. This report is called "Information about

    23 persons who organised the attack on the MUP and the

    24 military police in Vitez"; is that right? The persons

    25 that are mentioned in this report, do you know them?

  41. 1 A. Yes, some of them. Zarko Andric, that is

    2 Zuti.

    3 Q. Do you know what they were involved in?

    4 A. Then this nickname Klempo, I heard that he

    5 was an arms smuggler. I watched this on television,

    6 but I did not have any contact with him.

    7 Q. All right. Could you please look at the last

    8 page and see who signed this report and whose seal and

    9 stamp this is? Could you tell us whether you recognise

    10 the signature and whether you recognise the seal?

    11 A. It was signed by Pasko Ljubicic. I do not

    12 know his signature, but I do know him.

    13 Q. Also, was he commander of the 4th Battalion

    14 of the military police at that time?

    15 A. Yes. Yes, he was.

    16 Q. Do you recognise the stamp and seal?

    17 A. This is Herceg-Bosna, defence department. I

    18 saw similar coats of arms.

    19 Q. All right. Thank you. Tell us, were there

    20 any other such cases that you may remember? Do you

    21 remember any other cases of having the police station

    22 attacked?

    23 A. Explosives were thrown, but nothing more

    24 direct than that. I do not recall.

    25 Q. You said that very often at the time a lot of

  42. 1 explosives were thrown around Vitez; is that correct?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Were only Muslim buildings, Muslim houses,

    4 endangered in this way, or Croat houses too?

    5 A. In addition to Muslim buildings and houses,

    6 Croatian buildings and houses were destroyed too, and

    7 Serb houses and shops as well. And for example, shops

    8 like Ogrjev, there were lootings, robberies, and goods

    9 were taken away. And also explosives were thrown if

    10 there was some kind of a conflict, and also I know that

    11 the balcony of a Croat was shot at.

    12 Q. Do you remember any restaurants or cafes

    13 owned by Croats that were blown up at the time?

    14 A. In town, the Kamen cafe owned by Jukic was

    15 blown up. Then also in Zabilje, also a restaurant

    16 called Tina. And then in front of various public

    17 buildings like the medical centre, the cinema, the

    18 police station. Perhaps there were other cases too,

    19 but I can't remember now.

    20 Q. And were there any cases of arson in the

    21 villages, do you remember, at that time?

    22 A. Yes, yes, there was arson in Kruscica, where

    23 there is predominantly Muslim population, and weekend

    24 cottages, weekend cottages belonging to Croats and

    25 Serbs were usually torched. And also where there's a

  43. 1 majority Croat population, Muslim weekend cottages were

    2 torched too. And also there is a Serb village,

    3 Hrasnice by Tolovici, and everybody had moved out, and

    4 then all the houses were burned.

    5 Q. And when was this?

    6 A. I think in '93.

    7 Q. And did someone move into this village?

    8 A. The village of Tolovici? Yes, yes, refugees,

    9 I think, of Muslim ethnicity.

    10 Q. I'm going to show you some other reports

    11 pertaining to explosives and attacks by explosives, and

    12 could you please tell us whether these were areas

    13 inhabited by Croats, Muslims, or both.

    14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: So please, could

    15 Defence Exhibit D31/2 be shown to the witness.

    16 Mr. President, please, could you bear in mind

    17 the fact that we should take a break? I've just heard

    18 from one of the accused something to that effect.

    19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we started at 9.35; we'll

    20 finish at 5 minutes past 11, and we'll take the break

    21 then, when you get to a convenient moment about then.

    22 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.

    23 Q. Have you had a look at this?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. So we are talking about a report about

  44. 1 attacks with explosives in 1993; tell me these places

    2 that are mentioned, the Red Cross, the clinic, MUP, the

    3 Crnogorka building, which areas are these, and was

    4 there only a Muslim population there, or only a Croat

    5 population, or a mixed population?

    6 A. This was in town, and all these are public

    7 institutions. Around the clinic there are two

    8 buildings where both Muslims and Croats live. Then

    9 across the street from the civilian MUP, Ministry of

    10 the Interior, there is also a building where civilians

    11 live, and the building called Crnogorka is an apartment

    12 building.

    13 Q. So we're talking about the centre of the town

    14 of Vitez, aren't we?

    15 A. Yes. Yes. It's all in a circle, really.

    16 Also there is a balcony here, Zoran Krizanovic's

    17 balcony. That building was called Vitezanka.

    18 Q. Is Zoran Krizanovic a Croat, or a Muslim?

    19 A. Zoran is a Croat.

    20 Q. Do you remember whether such occurrences were

    21 frequent?

    22 A. Well, practically every evening something was

    23 going on.

    24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could the usher please

    25 show the witness this official note, too?

  45. 1 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

    2 D76/2.


    4 Q. Mr. Strukar, is this an event that you

    5 remember?

    6 A. I heard about this event, but I did not

    7 investigate it.

    8 Q. Explosives were thrown in this case, too,

    9 weren't they, at Impregnacija? What was Impregnacija?

    10 A. Impregnacija was a wood processing factory.

    11 Q. Also an explosive was thrown at the house of

    12 Dzemo Mujanovic which was nearby; is that right?

    13 A. It's near this enterprise.

    14 Q. This was a relatively strong explosion

    15 because --

    16 A. The glass broke.

    17 Q. Yes, and the house was damaged. Did the

    18 police do something when there were such explosions

    19 which obviously endangered the people who were there

    20 and who lived there?

    21 A. Yes, they went to investigate. This was an

    22 on-site investigation. They tried to get fingerprints,

    23 et cetera, so if the perpetrator could be found, then

    24 this could be used as evidence, and most probably

    25 neighbours were interviewed and possible witnesses.

  46. 1 Q. Could you please look at this official note

    2 and tell us who signed it? It is an official note of

    3 the 4th Batallion of the military police?

    4 A. Yes. It was signed by Ivan Josipovic.

    5 Q. Do you know who this person is?

    6 A. Yes, I do.

    7 Q. What did he do? Was he a military policeman?

    8 A. Yes, he was a military policeman, and he

    9 worked in the military police in charge of operations.

    10 Q. Thank you very much. You said that the

    11 police tried to do something, that it intervened in

    12 cases when they thought that dangerous things were

    13 being done. Later on, how was all of this processed?

    14 A. A criminal report would be filed with the

    15 office of the prosecutor, which existed in Travnik

    16 before, but then it was closed down, and then it was

    17 supposed to open in Vitez and start working in Vitez,

    18 that is to say, that this criminal report would be

    19 filed with the office of the prosecutor, and then they

    20 would send it on further.

    21 Q. Why did this office of the prosecutor cease

    22 to operate in Travnik, and when did this happen? Do

    23 you know?

    24 A. Because the roads were often blocked. I

    25 think that's the reason. I don't know exactly when it

  47. 1 stopped working, though. I think in '93, '93, most

    2 probably.

    3 Q. At that time, was an office of the prosecutor

    4 established in Vitez? Do you know about that?

    5 A. I heard that it was supposed to be

    6 established, and it was established eventually, but I

    7 can't remember whether it was before the war or during

    8 the war.

    9 Q. What about the municipal court or the

    10 district court? In the prewar days, in what

    11 jurisdiction was Vitez?

    12 A. Of the municipal court. The municipal court

    13 functioned on the territory of the municipality of

    14 Vitez, and we would always call an investigating judge

    15 from Travnik, from the basic court there. For a given

    16 period of time, he operated in Travnik, and then he

    17 stopped operating, and this was also established in

    18 Vitez.

    19 Q. What about the higher court? Did it exist at

    20 that time for the area of Vitez, and where was this?

    21 A. I think that during the war it was in Vitez,

    22 but I don't know when -- I don't know when.

    23 Q. This prewar period, do you remember whether

    24 the office of the prosecutor operated then? In 1993,

    25 was there an office of the prosecutor in Vitez?

  48. 1 A. I cannot recall. I do not know when it

    2 ceased to operate in Travnik and when it started

    3 operating from Vitez. I do not recall the exact date.

    4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, if we

    5 could take a break now, as I will be moving on to a

    6 different subject in the next part, so perhaps this

    7 would be a good point to break.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Ms. Slokovic-Glumac, do you

    9 think you will be able to conclude your examination in

    10 time to finish this witness today? Clearly if we can

    11 do that, it would be desirable, rather than having to

    12 come back tomorrow.

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: It depends on the

    14 Prosecutor, really.

    15 JUDGE MAY: Half an hour.

    16 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

    17 --- On resuming at 11.32 p.m.

    18 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Slokovic-Glumac, what we

    19 propose, in order to deal with this witness today, is

    20 that we should sit this afternoon. That would mean

    21 that we would go on now until 1.00. We would then take

    22 the luncheon adjournment until 3.00, it would have to

    23 be, and then sit between 3.00 and half past four. I

    24 hope that won't cause inconvenience to anybody, but it

    25 seems a more efficient way of dealing with the matter,

  49. 1 rather than all having to come back tomorrow.

    2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    3 Mr. President. That is agreeable with us as well, and

    4 I think that we will complete what we have with the

    5 witness.

    6 Q. Mr. Strukar, let us go on to the 19th of

    7 October, 1992 because some incidents occurred there

    8 which are vital for the situation in Vitez. Would you

    9 tell us where you were on the 19th of October, 1992?

    10 A. On the 19th of October, 1992, at the end of

    11 my work shift for the day, we were informed that there

    12 was a traffic accident in Kuber [as translated] and

    13 that some people had been killed in the accident. We

    14 informed the investigating judge and the prosecutor

    15 that we should go out on-site --

    16 Q. Would you repeat the place where the accident

    17 took place because it says "Kuber."

    18 A. Klupe near Nadioci. It is a particularly

    19 dangerous curve, bending curve, bend.

    20 Q. The place is near Nadioci and Ahmici, is it

    21 not?

    22 A. Yes, it is.

    23 Q. You went there to perform an on-site

    24 investigation?

    25 A. Yes. We waited for the judge and prosecutor

  50. 1 in the police station for about half an hour, and as he

    2 failed to arrive, we went on-site to see what had

    3 actually occurred. We came to the site of the accident

    4 and waited there for a further two hours, and the

    5 public prosecutor from Travnik turned up alone and said

    6 that the others could not arrive because there was a

    7 roadblock and that we should get through the business

    8 together with him which we did and started on the

    9 return journey to Vitez.

    10 When we arrived in the vicinity of the

    11 cemetary at Topole, which is close to Ahmici, on the

    12 road, I noticed people with weapons. There were some

    13 obstacles positioned on the road which we called

    14 hedgehogs, and I drew closer because I saw a young man

    15 with a weapon coming towards us and made a sign to us

    16 to stop.

    17 Q. Who was that? Tell the Court, please.

    18 A. It was Zavid Ahmic, the commander of the

    19 reservist police unit for Ahmici. He asked me where we

    20 had been. I told him that there was an accident and

    21 that we had been there. We asked to pass by, and he

    22 said, "Yes, you can pass through but don't come back."

    23 Some of the young men removed the obstacles.

    24 I continued on my journey and came to the

    25 police station. I saw that all the lights had been

  51. 1 turned off. This seemed a little strange. I slowed

    2 down, and in front of the building, there were two

    3 uniformed men wearing black uniforms, and they told me

    4 to stop. They gave me signs to stop.

    5 Q. Just one moment, please. The members of

    6 which unit were positioned in front of the police

    7 station?

    8 A. I didn't know at the time, but I learned

    9 later that they were members of the Vitezovi. He asked

    10 me what my name was and my co-driver. I said his name

    11 was Zoran. And they said, "What do you want here?"

    12 And I said, "We work here." He said, "You don't work

    13 here anymore. Go home."

    14 I took one of my colleagues to Jardol. I

    15 gave him a lift because I saw that the situation was

    16 dangerous, and I, myself, returned home. I didn't stop

    17 off at the police station anymore.

    18 Half an hour later, the telephone rang and an

    19 unknown voice told me to come to the police station and

    20 to bring the official vehicle that I had been using and

    21 to bring my office keys with me and the keys to the

    22 other official vehicles. So I went to the police

    23 station. I stopped in front, and a soldier escorted me

    24 up to my own office. And through the corridor, I

    25 noticed that all the doors had been broken down and all

  52. 1 the drawers had been ransacked. My own drawer was not

    2 ransacked. I took out my keys, and the man told me to

    3 go downstairs with him where I was awaited by his

    4 leader or chief, and I recognised him. His nickname

    5 was Sidi. He said, "Where are the keys," and I said,

    6 "Over there." And he said, "Go off home, and I don't

    7 want to see you here anymore." So I went home that

    8 evening and stayed home.

    9 Q. Did anybody stay in the police station that

    10 day, that is to say, the 19th of October, of the

    11 policemen?

    12 A. I didn't see anybody. I went right round the

    13 police station because the crime squad office was at

    14 the end of the corridor, and I saw nobody along the

    15 way.

    16 Q. Did you go to your office at the police

    17 station the following day?

    18 A. Well, I wondered what I was going to do

    19 during the night, and in the morning, I went to the

    20 police station to see what I was going to do. When I

    21 arrived at the police station, the young man asked me

    22 what I wanted, and I asked whether any of the policemen

    23 had come to work and whether we could take up our

    24 duties, and he said, "No. Go to the Hotel Vitez." I

    25 found some of my colleagues there, and I spent some

  53. 1 time in the hotel.

    2 Q. Was the entire police station moved to the

    3 premises of the hotel?

    4 A. The Croats were moved there. The Muslims,

    5 however, set up their own police station in the Mahala

    6 in Old Vitez, Stari Vitez, in the fire brigade

    7 building. So they moved to the fire brigade building

    8 and set up their own station there. Several policemen

    9 who remained just reported for duty and said they would

    10 like to work there, and they were told to go home and

    11 that they would be called when needed.

    12 Q. So that means that there was a division in

    13 the police force after that incident; is that correct?

    14 A. Yes, it is.

    15 Q. As far as I was able to understand, the whole

    16 of the police station was sent away from the police

    17 station by the Vitezovi.

    18 A. The whole police station was taken over by

    19 the Vitezovi, and nobody, none of the police force,

    20 could enter the building. Everybody was thrown out.

    21 Q. How many days did you spend in the hotel as a

    22 police force?

    23 A. I think we spent about 10 to 20 days in the

    24 hotel. I'm not quite sure. I know that we were there,

    25 stationed there, for a time.

  54. 1 Q. The Muslims, you say, formed their own police

    2 force in what they referred to as the Mahala; is that

    3 correct?

    4 A. Yes. We saw that they were absent, and then

    5 we learnt that they had established their own police

    6 station in Stari Vitez, in the Mahala, in the fire

    7 brigade building there. With our chief, the commander,

    8 the chief -- their chief, Saban Mahmutovic,

    9 communicated with him.

    10 Q. Saban Mahmutovic, therefore, joined the

    11 police force set up in the Mahala; is that right?

    12 A. Yes, it is.

    13 Q. Who was the commander of the civilian police

    14 of the Croatian part at that time?

    15 A. It was Pero Skopljak still, and then he

    16 tendered his resignation because of the events that

    17 happened, and then Mirko Samija took over.

    18 Q. Were there any problems? Was Pero Skopljak

    19 asked to resign previously by the police cadres, that

    20 is to say, by Sarajevo? Do you know whether anything

    21 like that was requested?

    22 A. I don't know whether the request came from

    23 Sarajevo, but I do know that after this event took

    24 place, we asked the Muslims to have a meeting and to

    25 start working together again, and they requested, they

  55. 1 asked as a condition for this, that Pero Skopljak

    2 tender his resignation, and then the Croats asked Saban

    3 Mahmutovic to do the same.

    4 Q. As Pero Skopljak's deputy?

    5 A. Yes, as chief of police. Pero Skopljak

    6 tendered his resignation and said, "There you are. I

    7 don't want to be an obstacle." The Muslims did not

    8 follow suit, so that we had no further contacts.

    9 Q. Can you tell us whether your status underwent

    10 a change, that is to say, what about your salaries and

    11 so on? Did you receive your salary from Sarajevo after

    12 that or did your salaries come to you from Mostar?

    13 A. I later learned that with that date, our

    14 labour relations, that is, the Croat members of the

    15 police force, relations were severed there, and we

    16 began receiving salaries from Mostar, from the

    17 government. I don't actually know.

    18 Q. All the Croats in Vitez, were their work

    19 duties severed?

    20 A. Only for the Croat policemen, members of the

    21 police force.

    22 Q. Would you take a look at your work booklet,

    23 and I'd like the usher to hand around this document?

    24 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D77/2.


  56. 1 Q. Would you take a look at the pages that have

    2 been photocopied from the original? Tell us whether

    3 that is your own personal work booklet. Would you take

    4 a look at page 3 which states that on the 19th of

    5 October, 1992, you were relieved of your duties as of

    6 that date and that the RSUP, that is to say, the

    7 Republican SUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the security

    8 centre in Zenica told you of the fact that you would be

    9 relieved of your duties, the Vitez station.

    10 So your function ceased as of the 19th of

    11 October, 1992; you were no longer an employee of the

    12 police station. This was terminated by the SUP from

    13 Sarajevo; is that correct?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Was that also the case with your colleagues,

    16 the other policemen?

    17 A. Yes. When I was in Sarajevo and wanted to

    18 retrieve my work booklet, the clerk told me that I was

    19 to have received a certificate stating that I was

    20 relieved of my duties as of that date, and the clerk

    21 said -- she was a woman -- and she said that as of that

    22 date, we would be relieved of our duties. But I never

    23 saw this actually on paper.

    24 Q. The contents of your work booklet, who wrote

    25 in the contents and your years of service? Where was

  57. 1 your booklet located?

    2 A. In the Republican SUP of Sarajevo.

    3 Q. So that means that that is where your years

    4 of service were recorded and everything else, the

    5 information about your employment.

    6 When the civilian police became divided up

    7 and the Muslims moved to the Mahala and the Croatian

    8 part remained in Vitez, how was the work of the police

    9 regulated?

    10 A. Well, what we did was the following: We

    11 would work in areas where the majority of the

    12 population were Croats, whereas they worked where the

    13 majority population were Muslims. Then we would

    14 cooperate in the exchange of reports. For example, if

    15 a perpetrator was a Croat and he was on Muslim

    16 territory and had perpetrated a crime, we would take a

    17 statement down from the individual and send them that

    18 statement and report. That is the way in which we

    19 would function. We would go out for an on-site

    20 investigation, when a theft, in case of a theft or

    21 anything else, we would do this together.

    22 Q. So there was a sort of territorial division

    23 covered by both police stations; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes. For safety reasons, for security

    25 reasons, they would cover their own territory and we

  58. 1 would cover ours.

    2 Q. How did this cooperation function during the

    3 on-site investigations?

    4 A. Well, when we did the investigation together,

    5 the on-site investigation.

    6 Q. Do you remember the areas held by the Muslim

    7 police? What area did the problems occur?

    8 A. In the Mahala of Stari Vitez, in Kruscica,

    9 Veceriska, those were the areas, perhaps in Preocica to

    10 a certain extent but to a lesser extent.

    11 Q. When the Croatian police would go on the

    12 on-site investigation, when were they called to the

    13 Mahala to perform on-site investigations?

    14 A. Well, we would go -- for example, when a bomb

    15 was thrown in the courtyard of a Croatian house,

    16 Pavlovic Vinko and when there was shooting at a man

    17 called Jorga who was going down a side street near the

    18 stadium, near the barracks, and then there was another

    19 case in Kruscica.

    20 Q. Just one moment, please. Let me ask you

    21 about the Mahala. Do you know anything about two

    22 individuals, the surname Prkacin?

    23 A. Yes, a woman lived near the barracks with an

    24 invalid son, and one evening, they shot at the barracks

    25 through her flat, and so I was called to do an on-site

  59. 1 investigation.

    2 Q. Was that the last time that you were called

    3 to the Mahala? Can you tell us the date?

    4 A. It wasn't the last time. I went to the

    5 Mahala on another occasion, I don't remember the exact

    6 date, but I went when, in Kruscica, Croats were beaten

    7 up at mejtefs, and a team came from Zenica came to us

    8 to ask some of us to be present, some of the members of

    9 the civilian police, so I was called to go there, and

    10 they took us towards a weekend cottage which was where

    11 the investigation took place, and from there, we went

    12 to the police station in Stari Vitez. I don't think

    13 that I went again.

    14 Q. Do you know the individuals in question in

    15 the case when there was the beating up in Kruscica?

    16 A. One of the men was called Tomic and another

    17 was -- his name was Dragan Botic, I think, and there

    18 was probably one other person, I'm not sure what his

    19 name was.

    20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I would like the

    21 witness to be shown Defence Exhibit D72/2 now, please.

    22 Q. This is a report on the arrest of members of

    23 the HVO. Do you recall that particular event? Did it

    24 also take place when Botic was beaten up, or is that

    25 another event?

  60. 1 A. This is another event. I heard about it in

    2 town, that is to say, that these people were

    3 apprehended and their weapons taken away. I think

    4 there was a Kombi van at some point in the affair.

    5 Q. So you did hear about the event, that is to

    6 say, that the members of the BiH army and MOS arrested

    7 members of the HVO in Kruscica?

    8 A. Yes, I did hear of that event.

    9 Q. Were there more events of this kind, to the

    10 best of your recollection?

    11 A. I think there were a number of events like

    12 that, whether they were larger groups or smaller groups

    13 that were stopped and weapons confiscated and then they

    14 would be let go and so on.

    15 Q. In other parts of the territory held by the

    16 Muslim police, were there other incidents of this kind

    17 that you recollect? You said that in Veceriska, some

    18 incidents took place.

    19 A. Up in Veceriska, and Veceriska is near a

    20 forest, and wood was taken, cut from the forest there,

    21 and it was transported by tractor, a tractor was used

    22 to transport the wood, and I know that they stopped the

    23 driver of a tractor and punctured his tyres and that

    24 his tractor was shot at, and he came to complain but we

    25 weren't able to do much.

  61. 1 Q. With regard to this period, that is to say,

    2 when you tried to cooperate with the police, the Muslim

    3 police in areas held by the Muslims and when you tried

    4 to coordinate work, how did you coordinate your work

    5 with the military police?

    6 A. If a case was something that the military

    7 police would be in charge of, we would call them to

    8 come or we would go because it was close by, the

    9 headquarters were close by, so we did have this kind of

    10 cooperation.

    11 Q. Did you work together on the on-site

    12 examinations?

    13 A. Well, if it was impossible to ascertain at

    14 any given moment whether the individual who had

    15 perpetrated a crime belonged to a military unit or not,

    16 then we would go out jointly to ascertain this, and

    17 then, depending on who the individual belonged to,

    18 which organisation, that organisation would take on the

    19 case.

    20 Q. Could you please look at another document too

    21 related to the work of the civilian and military police

    22 respectively?

    23 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D78/2.


    25 Q. This is a report of Ivan Budimir from the 2nd

  62. 1 Battalion of Vitez. He was the officer for SIS. Do

    2 you know what Ivan Budimir did?

    3 A. I think that he was head of the military

    4 police.

    5 Q. At a given period in time?

    6 A. Yes. And then he moved to the civilian

    7 police.

    8 Q. Could you please look at points 1 and 2 and 3

    9 here? It is said here that there is a regional

    10 military police in Vitez as a separate municipal police

    11 and also the 4th Battalion of the military police and

    12 the civilian police. Also, it is mentioned that there

    13 is no sphere of work.

    14 Do you know what the difference was between

    15 these police forces and how did they distribute their

    16 assignments and within which system did they operate?

    17 A. Well, this is the way it was: The military

    18 police, the regional, they were separate. They got

    19 bigger salaries than the other ones. Then there was

    20 some kind of resentment between the two, and when

    21 something had to be resolved, then they would blame

    22 each other, shift responsibility to one another, and

    23 they couldn't really work properly, they couldn't

    24 cooperate properly.

    25 Q. Where were their headquarters? Were they

  63. 1 under the Ministry of Defence or under the Ministry of

    2 Police in Mostar?

    3 A. Possibly this regional police was attached to

    4 Mostar, but I don't know about the rest.

    5 Q. Also, they mention here what you mentioned as

    6 well, that there is armed robbery, people are being

    7 wounded, and also sabotages in the town, in cafes, and

    8 so far there have been armed robberies in six houses

    9 (two Croats, one Serb, and three Muslims).

    10 Did the military police make any kind of

    11 attempt to deal with the security situation? Did you

    12 reach any kind of agreement with them?

    13 A. There were some discussions to the effect

    14 that there should be a ban on carrying weapons in

    15 town. I know that the chiefs talked about this, but

    16 agreement was never reached on this matter. Perhaps

    17 there was something on paper, but it was not carried

    18 out.

    19 Q. Also, it is mentioned here that many of these

    20 incidents occurred in cafes. Was there a curfew or

    21 were there limited working hours for the cafes?

    22 A. Yes. There was also a decision on the work

    23 of catering establishments and a curfew was imposed.

    24 The curfew started in the evening, I think around 8.00

    25 or 9.00, and then it went on until 4.00 or 5.00 in the

  64. 1 morning. At first, it was observed by citizens, by

    2 honest citizens. But then permits were issued to

    3 persons who would be allowed to move about even during

    4 curfew hours, and then there were more and more of them

    5 every day, and then it became pointless to have a

    6 curfew.

    7 Q. Who reached these decisions about the curfew,

    8 and in principle, did they pertain to all citizens of

    9 Vitez?

    10 A. They pertained to all citizens of Vitez. It

    11 was announced in all the media that there was a curfew

    12 and that no movement was allowed.

    13 Q. Tell us now, in relation to the situation, in

    14 terms of preserving law and order in Vitez in 1992 and

    15 1993, in fact, was this situation such that it was out

    16 of control?

    17 A. Yes, yes. It was certainly out of control.

    18 Q. Were all the citizens endangered in this way?

    19 A. Everyone was endangered because people were

    20 afraid of gunfire, of explosions. Everybody was

    21 afraid.

    22 Q. What about the rural areas?

    23 A. In rural areas, the villagers set up their

    24 village guards, these night guards, not during the day

    25 though, and that is how the Muslims organised

  65. 1 themselves and that is how the Croats organised

    2 themselves, and there were some Serbs too. They stood

    3 guard until the morning.

    4 Q. So you believe that one of the reasons why

    5 village guards were established was this lack of safety

    6 because of the general security situation that

    7 prevailed and because of this uncertainty?

    8 A. Well, most probably, because people realised

    9 that the police couldn't do much, and then people

    10 organised themselves.

    11 Q. During 1992 and 1993, in the municipality of

    12 Vitez, please tell me, until the 16th of April, 1993,

    13 were there any killings of Muslims, and are you aware

    14 of any specific cases?

    15 A. There were killings of Muslims, and there

    16 were cases when a Croat would kill a Muslim and when a

    17 Muslim would kill a Muslim. There were both kinds of

    18 cases.

    19 Q. Could you please try to remember those cases

    20 when a Muslim was killed by a Croat.

    21 A. In the Vitez Hotel.

    22 Q. Who was killed then?

    23 A. I think Trako was killed. I don't know his

    24 name though, but that's what I heard.

    25 Q. Do you recall when this happened?

  66. 1 A. No, no. Perhaps in '93; I don't know

    2 exactly.

    3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could the witness

    4 please be shown this document.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

    6 D79/2.


    8 Q. Please have a look at this document; look at

    9 the Croatian text, please.

    10 Is this the event that you were referring to

    11 when you were talking about Trako?

    12 A. Yes, yes, that's it.

    13 Q. This is an investigation record that was made

    14 because of the murder of Samir Trako. Does this

    15 document show that the investigation was attended by

    16 the municipal Prosecutor?

    17 A. Yes, yes. Miskovic. Miskovic Vlado.

    18 Q. He was the Prosecutor in Travnik; is that

    19 right?

    20 A. Yes, in Travnik.

    21 Q. This investigation record shows that the

    22 perpetrator is established; is that correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And that it is suspected that Vukadinovic

    25 Perica from Vitez committed this crime. Was Perica

  67. 1 Vukadinovic a member of the HOV units?

    2 A. I think he was.

    3 Q. Was a criminal report filed against him?

    4 A. I think it was.

    5 Q. Do you know how these proceedings ended?

    6 A. I know that he was on the run, but I don't

    7 know whether he was ultimately arrested.

    8 Q. Is he still alive? Do you know that?

    9 A. I don't know.

    10 Q. I'm sorry. Could you please have a look at

    11 the signature on this document, on the investigation

    12 record, that is. Who signed it?

    13 A. Percinlic Zeljko, investigating judge.

    14 Q. That is to say that the investigating judge

    15 was present at the scene; is that right?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Do you know Zeljko Percinlic, and do you know

    18 his signature?

    19 A. I know Zeljko, but I don't know his

    20 signature.

    21 Q. But he was an investigating judge at the

    22 time?

    23 A. Yes, he was.

    24 Q. So that is one murder that you recall; were

    25 there any other murders of Muslims by Croats? I'm

  68. 1 talking about the period before the 16th of April.

    2 A. Yes, in Nadioci. Salkic was killed. He was a

    3 Muslim.

    4 Q. Is his name Esad?

    5 A. Possibly.

    6 Q. Were you there, or rather, was there an

    7 on-site investigation?

    8 A. Yes. Yes, and we went together with the

    9 military police, because at that very moment we did not

    10 know who the perpetrator was. Later we found out who

    11 the perpetrator was. We brought him into custody and

    12 sent him to Kaonik, to the prison there.

    13 Q. Do you remember who was involved in the

    14 on-site investigation, you or the military police, or

    15 did you work together?

    16 A. We worked together. We helped each other.

    17 We were all there at the crime scene, so we worked

    18 together. We did the investigation together.

    19 Q. When you interviewed the witnesses, did you

    20 determine who this person was who had committed this

    21 crime?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Who was this?

    24 A. The suspect was Miroslav Bralo, nicknamed

    25 Cicko.

  69. 1 Q. And a criminal report was filed against this

    2 person; is that correct?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Was he arrested?

    5 A. Yes, he was arrested.

    6 Q. And where was he taken to?

    7 A. We took him to Kaonik, to the Kaonik prison.

    8 Q. Did you take him to Kaonik?

    9 Could you please tell us, because the record

    10 hasn't recorded your answer.

    11 A. The answer is yes.

    12 Q. Do you remember when this happened? Can you

    13 tell us specifically?

    14 A. This was in 1993, whereas the previous case

    15 occurred earlier.

    16 Q. Do you remember any other cases when a Muslim

    17 was killed by a Croat before the 16th of April, 1993?

    18 A. I cannot recall.

    19 Q. Do you remember any murders of Croats by

    20 Muslims in this same period?

    21 A. Croats?

    22 Q. What about Zuljevic?

    23 A. That was in June or July.

    24 Q. Well, I'm asking you about 1992 --

    25 A. Yes, yes, they disappeared.

  70. 1 Q. Would disappeared?

    2 A. Two young men. One was Zuljevic; the other

    3 one was Pocrnja. And in July, their corpses were found

    4 in a thicket near Krcevine. That is when the

    5 commission from Zenica went out to the crime scene.

    6 And later on I found out that the suspects were two

    7 Muslims, two brothers. And I don't know what happened

    8 after that.

    9 Q. Why did this commission from Zenica go to the

    10 scene of the crime? Was it because it was suspected

    11 that they were murdered by Muslims, or why?

    12 A. Usually more serious crimes were under the

    13 jurisdiction of the regional SUP of Zenica. They would

    14 go out to the crime scene in the case of such crimes,

    15 and they would process them. And that is why they went

    16 there.

    17 Q. Could you also try to remember whether, in

    18 these incidents that we were speaking about, were there

    19 also killings of Croats by Croats in cafes and hotels,

    20 et cetera, at that time?

    21 A. Yes, at the hotel there was another killing

    22 committed by a Croat; a Croat killed a Croat, that is.

    23 Santic, I think. And there's this Vlado who was

    24 killed. And then in a cafe, a waitress, a woman, got

    25 killed. Then in Kruscica, during the night guard, one

  71. 1 young man was killed because he mishandled a gun. I

    2 can't recall any others.

    3 Q. Please tell the Court, because I mistakenly

    4 omitted this: Did any Muslims stay on in the police

    5 force after the 19th of October, 1992?

    6 A. I think about seven or eight remained. I

    7 think they did. I think they worked until the outbreak

    8 of the conflict, some of them. Some stayed on even

    9 after the outbreak of the conflict, and one young man

    10 stayed on throughout.

    11 Q. Were they prevented from working? Do you

    12 know that?

    13 A. Not on our side, not by us. Only the chief

    14 of police would always send them out with a Croat, so

    15 that they wouldn't have any difficult situations to

    16 deal with.

    17 Q. Please tell the Court, what did you do in the

    18 morning of the 16th of April, 1993?

    19 A. I was at the police station. I was

    20 developing photographs, because I was on duty from

    21 10.00 p.m. until the first morning shift took over.

    22 Since there were many robberies and other things that

    23 were committed during the night, we had this

    24 round-the-clock duty at the station, so that's why I

    25 was there that night.

  72. 1 Q. And when did something happen, or start

    2 happening? At what time?

    3 A. I was in the lab when I heard a detonation.

    4 I went out. I couldn't leave immediately because I had

    5 to take care of a few things. And when I went out,

    6 Mirko Samija was there with the officer on duty, and he

    7 said, "Call the other members in." Some came

    8 immediately; as soon as they heard the explosion, they

    9 knew that something was wrong. And everybody knew that

    10 we were supposed to meet at the station if something

    11 went wrong. And Mirko said, "Get your equipment and go

    12 and guard these various buildings," namely the post

    13 office, the municipality building, and the gasoline

    14 station, and the police building.

    15 And I took my equipment and asked where I

    16 should go. And he gave me another person from the

    17 crime police, and he said that we should go to the

    18 municipality building.

    19 Q. And what happened on the 16th? You were

    20 there guarding the building all day, or did you take

    21 shifts?

    22 A. We would take over from one another after a

    23 few hours. I went back, and the first time I went

    24 back, I went to take a break, and I was asked to come

    25 to the municipality basement, and that we should seek

  73. 1 shelter there. And when I went down there, I saw these

    2 other men who were waiting for their shifts.

    3 Q. And how long did you stay there? How long

    4 did you stay there on guard duty?

    5 A. Well, for several days.

    6 Q. Several days?

    7 A. Yes, several days. And then we would go to

    8 the police station again. And again when there was

    9 combat operation, then we would go there again.

    10 Because that was our shelter, because it was

    11 underground and we were safe there.

    12 Q. Thank you. No further questions.

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I have concluded, and I

    14 would like to tender as Defence Exhibits D75/2 through

    15 D79/2.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Is there any further

    17 examination?

    18 Mr. Radovic, have you any questions?

    19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, Borislav

    20 Krajina and Luko Susak -- or rather Zelimir Par would

    21 like to examine the witness. Briefly, they say.

    22 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    23 MR. PAR: Thank you, Mr. President. I have a

    24 few brief questions to ask of this witness.

    25 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

  74. 1 Q. Mr. Strukar, in the course of 1994 and 1995

    2 you worked in the crime police as well, did you not?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Do you know that in the course of 1994/1995,

    5 that there were breaking and entering reports into the

    6 house of Vlatko Kupreskic?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Were you personally sent to investigate this

    9 crime?

    10 A. Yes, on both occasions.

    11 Q. Would you tell us what year that was?

    12 A. I think that it was 1994.

    13 Q. And what actually happened? Was it a case of

    14 breaking and entering?

    15 A. Yes, it was a case of breaking and entering.

    16 The perpetrators entered the premises through the

    17 window, and they looted some things, I think, some

    18 trousers and other clothing which were located on the

    19 premises. And the second case occurred when there was

    20 breaking and entering in a warehouse nearby his house,

    21 and once again some items were taken.

    22 Q. At that time, in 1994/95, in the area of

    23 Vitez, Ahmici, Pirici, were there an increased number

    24 of offences of this kind, crimes of this kind, breaking

    25 and entering and looting and so on, and was property

  75. 1 generally endangered in that area, onslaughts against

    2 property, were they prevalent?

    3 A. Well, not to the extent to which -- that is

    4 to say we were organised better later on.

    5 Q. The breaking and entering at the Kupreskic

    6 place, did this take place there, or were there

    7 increased incidences of this kind at the time?

    8 A. No, I don't think so.

    9 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. I have no further

    10 questions.

    11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Susak?

    12 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.

    13 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:

    14 Q. I am Defence Counsel for Drago Josipovic; my

    15 name is Luko Susak, and I would like to ask you the

    16 following question: In view of the fact that Bralo

    17 Miroslav, nicknamed Cicko, who was mentioned on several

    18 occasions during this trial, and other -- and the

    19 surname Bralo was also mentioned, I would like to ask

    20 you a question in that regard: Could you tell us who

    21 Miroslav Bralo, nicknamed Cicko, in fact, was?

    22 A. He lived in Nadioci. He was a member of the

    23 Vitezovi. And I don't know any more about him.

    24 Q. Do you know when he was born?

    25 A. No, I don't.

  76. 1 Q. Did he reside in Nadioci all the time?

    2 A. I didn't know him beforehand, that is until

    3 he started making the problems. And then he was in

    4 Vitez, and later on he had a flat in town.

    5 Q. You said that he was taken into custody, that

    6 you took him into custody; is that correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And that he was taken to Kaonik, the Kaonik

    9 prison?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Was he ever tried?

    12 A. I don't know what happened after that. I

    13 only know that he was taken to the prison, that we

    14 handed him over, and that we returned. I don't know

    15 what happened after that.

    16 Q. You mentioned today a reserve police

    17 formation, and you said that a station was established

    18 for this reserve formation. Did they have a separate

    19 commander apart from the head of the police station of

    20 Vitez, who was the chief of police, who was Pero

    21 Skopljak?

    22 A. I was the commander in town, and Pero

    23 Skopljak was my superior.

    24 Q. Does that mean that he was commander of the

    25 reserve formation as well?

  77. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did the reserve formation have separate

    3 offices?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Where were these offices?

    6 A. They were in the local community building in

    7 town, those premises. They had four offices there.

    8 Q. When you spoke about the distribution of

    9 weapons, was this the police station for the reserve

    10 formations that took over this, or was sent this?

    11 A. The police station would charge each

    12 individual with the weapons; they had to sign for the

    13 weapons. They were issued guns individually.

    14 Q. And what about the uniforms, the issuance of

    15 uniforms?

    16 A. The same thing happened. When they wanted to

    17 accept somebody into the reserve unit, they would be

    18 investigated, and when the okay was obtained, logistics

    19 would issue that individual with uniforms and

    20 equipment, and they would sign for it.

    21 Q. You spoke about how they came by their

    22 weapons, I'm not going to ask you any more about that,

    23 but I'm just going to ask you whether they were

    24 supplied with weapons in any other way, apart from the

    25 fashion that you described today.

  78. 1 A. I don't know. The reserve police formation,

    2 I don't know about that.

    3 Q. You mentioned Pero Skopljak today. How long

    4 did he perform his functions as chief of police?

    5 A. He was chief of police up until the division

    6 of the police force into the Muslim and Croat section,

    7 that is to say, until he resigned.

    8 Q. Where did he go after that?

    9 A. I don't know. I think that he went to join a

    10 humanitarian organisation, but I'm not quite sure.

    11 Q. Was he in the HVO government?

    12 A. I really can't say.

    13 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us move on to

    14 another question now. Do you know of the warehouse

    15 called Ogrjev in Santici which belonged to the Vitez

    16 shareholding company?

    17 A. Yes, I do.

    18 Q. Will you tell us where that is located?

    19 A. It is located along the main road running

    20 from Vitez to Kaonik on the left-hand side viewed from

    21 the Vitez direction.

    22 Q. In the courtyard to that warehouse, do you

    23 enter the courtyard from an asphalt road branching off

    24 from the main road or in some other way?

    25 A. In front of the warehouse, there is a

  79. 1 plateaux, a sort of small plateaux, and you enter the

    2 warehouse from that plateaux, that is to say, the

    3 Ogrjev premises.

    4 Q. Would you describe to us, please, what the

    5 entrance door looks like to the warehouse?

    6 A. Well, the door, there is usually

    7 some armature, netting used in construction work, and

    8 it is secured to the metal part, and this is a sort of

    9 large gateway.

    10 Q. I would like to call upon the usher now to

    11 hand out an aerial photograph as a document, it is D10,

    12 and to show the witness that document.

    13 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President?

    14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Terrier.

    15 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I would like to

    16 make one remark, with your permission. When we talk

    17 about the enclosure around this premises, I request

    18 that they state what time period we are speaking of

    19 because I believe it was established in a previous

    20 hearing of this same trial that some transformation had

    21 taken place, and, therefore, the enclosure is no longer

    22 the same as it was at that time period. So I would

    23 request that the request witness be asked exactly what

    24 time period we're speaking of at this moment.

    25 MR. SUSAK: I'm going to pose that question

  80. 1 but, of course, the Prosecutor can ask the witness

    2 directly later on in the cross-examination.

    3 Q. Could you tell us what this relates to, which

    4 period? Is it April 1993?

    5 A. Ogrjev existed in 1993, yes.

    6 Q. This aerial photograph is identical to

    7 Prosecution Exhibit 297. The aerial photograph was

    8 taken by the Prosecution investigators. Could you tell

    9 us where the entrance to Ogrjev lies?

    10 A. It is on the west side, on the left-hand

    11 side, that is to say.

    12 Q. Would you mark the entrance with an "A," the

    13 letter "A"?

    14 A. The entrance to Ogrjev, you mean?

    15 Q. Yes. How many wings does the entrance have?

    16 A. The entrance consists of two big wings or

    17 sides and one auxiliary which is a part of the big

    18 wing.

    19 Q. So there are two wings, and one of them is

    20 divided into two. Would you mark this in, please, one

    21 wing with the number 1 and the second with the number

    22 2, and the small wing 2A?

    23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Susak, I'm not sure that I

    24 follow that. The English interpretation is "wings." I

    25 don't know what the wing of an entrance is.

  81. 1 THE INTERPRETER: Part of a door.

    2 JUDGE MAY: We're told it's part of a door.

    3 I guess it means "gates," probably. Does that seem

    4 right?

    5 MR. SUSAK: It is a gate, yes. Thank you for

    6 drawing our attention to that, Your Honour.

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Well, one gate. They are

    8 referring to a wing but it's part of a gate, the small

    9 gate, 2A.

    10 MR. SUSAK:

    11 Q. Would you tell us whether you went to Ogrjev

    12 before 1993?

    13 A. Yes, I did.

    14 Q. Would you describe the entrance, the entrance

    15 or door, because they have been described in different

    16 fashions?

    17 A. In fact, the entrance door is composed of a

    18 netting, wire netting, supported by a steel rim, and

    19 there is an expansion on the left-hand side viewed from

    20 the Vitez direction, and during the day, the door is

    21 open or gate. At night, it is closed. And this

    22 auxiliary door served for the guards, purposes of the

    23 guards' entry and exit, and the guard would walk around

    24 the area to survey it, and there would be a regular

    25 patrol as well patrolling the premises.

  82. 1 Q. Thank you. Take a look at the aerial

    2 photograph. Which direction has the aerial photograph

    3 been taken from?

    4 A. It was taken from the Kaonik direction.

    5 Q. So from the asphalt part of the road?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. In fact, this is an erroneous representation

    8 of the actual state of affairs because we can see the

    9 entry from the asphalt road, but describe where the

    10 gate is and whether there are two wire fences?

    11 A. Yes, there were two wire fences, one between

    12 the main road and the wire fence where there is a sort

    13 of canal, a small canal, where the wire netting is, up

    14 until the last left-hand pillar, and then we go on

    15 right towards the facility itself, which is where the

    16 gate, entrance gate, is located.

    17 Q. So the entrance gate is on the other side of

    18 the road. From the macadamised road surface, you enter

    19 into the warehouse Ogrjev. Could you tell us the

    20 difference between the armoured pillars, that is to

    21 say, the thicker and thinner pillars?

    22 A. The thicker, stronger pillars are close up;

    23 whereas the ones in the background are smaller because

    24 they are further away from the road.

    25 Q. Would you please mark with an "X" the smaller

  83. 1 pillars which is the second fence, in fact, the second

    2 plot, and place a "Y" to denote the pillars which are

    3 closer to the road. You marked the gateway, entrance

    4 gateway to Ogrjev, but I can't see that you have

    5 denoted the small gateway to Ogrjev.

    6 A. The smaller gateway is the other side.

    7 Q. Can you use a Magic Marker --

    8 A. Yes, that's right.

    9 Q. -- to mark this in for us. That smaller

    10 gateway is there.

    11 A. (Marks)

    12 Q. Would you use the Magic Marker once again to

    13 mark the ground, the level ground?

    14 A. Along the road here (marks).

    15 Q. Now a dotted line to indicate the fence which

    16 connects with the ground, the other side of Ogrjev,

    17 that is to say, the other fence, the fence which is

    18 more distant.

    19 A. (Marks)

    20 Q. A dotted line, please, a dotted line to make

    21 it clearer. A little further left, yes.

    22 A. (Marks)

    23 Q. So those are two levels and the fence on both

    24 sides?

    25 A. Yes.

  84. 1 Q. Would you tell us where the guard hut is?

    2 A. The guard hut is in a special facility, and

    3 it is an office by day and a guard hut by night.

    4 Q. You said that you used to go to Ogrjev. Does

    5 the guard hut have a door and windows?

    6 A. It has an entrance door, yes, and there are

    7 windows in the office.

    8 Q. How many windows?

    9 A. One by the entrance door looking towards

    10 Ogrjev and the other.

    11 Q. Would you place an arrow to denote the window

    12 facing west, the western window, an arrow, please?

    13 A. (Marks)

    14 Q. Yes. Would you place the letter "O" to

    15 denote the window facing south?

    16 A. (Marks)

    17 Q. On the window, yes. Thank you. Would you

    18 now place an arrow showing us the entrance door to the

    19 guard hut?

    20 A. (Marks)

    21 Q. And the third window?

    22 A. (Marks)

    23 Q. You placed a triangle.

    24 A. Yes, a triangle.

    25 Q. Can you describe to us what the guard hut

  85. 1 looked like, that is to say, what the windows were

    2 like, whether they had glass on them, and how the

    3 windows were closed shut and the doors?

    4 A. The windows had glass, and you could only

    5 open them from the inside. You could not open them

    6 from the outside because they were low down. The house

    7 is a small one, and the windows are low, and that's why

    8 you can open the windows only from the inside.

    9 Q. What about the door, the entrance door?

    10 A. The entrance door, well, you open them

    11 normally. You can go in one way or the other.

    12 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have a videotape

    13 related to this subject, and it would be a good thing

    14 if the usher could take it to the technical booth so

    15 that it could be played because it does show the actual

    16 situation on the ground.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Susak, before we see it,

    18 let's hear a little more about it. Where was it taken

    19 and who by?

    20 MR. SUSAK: I did, in Vitez, and I gave the

    21 Prosecutor one copy immediately, and they have one copy

    22 for their own records, and also a copy for the

    23 Chamber.

    24 JUDGE MAY: When did you take it?

    25 MR. SUSAK: It was taken just now, but the

  86. 1 fence is the same, and you will be able to see this

    2 when you compare it to the aerial photograph that we

    3 were just mentioning. The aerial photograph was taken

    4 by the Prosecutor's investigators, and it was also

    5 registered as their Exhibit 147.

    6 JUDGE MAY: I don't want to stop you doing

    7 this, but I just wonder whether this is the appropriate

    8 witness to play this item to. How long will it take?

    9 MR. SUSAK: Not long, not long. I can't

    10 really calculate it, but it's going to be brief, about

    11 15 minutes, because I think the witness answered all

    12 the questions already.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Well, 15 minutes seems quite long

    14 for a video of a fence, but it was taken this year, was

    15 it?

    16 MR. SUSAK: Yes.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Last year, I suspect, Judge Mumba

    18 points out.

    19 Yes, Mr. Terrier, I don't think we need waste

    20 too much time on this. If counsel wants to play it

    21 now, then it can be played. It needs to be played once

    22 at least.

    23 MR. TERRIER: Yes, of course. It's at your

    24 discretion, Your Honour; however, I simply wish to add

    25 that if we're dealing with the fence, the fence in

  87. 1 front of the road here, I believe there is a document

    2 that exists that was already tendered into evidence,

    3 245, which is a photograph, a very excellent

    4 photograph, taken by a BRITBAT officer on the 16th of

    5 April, 1993, and this photograph has been tendered

    6 before this Tribunal. The Trial Chamber is aware of

    7 this photograph, and it shows the fence in question,

    8 and so I question whether or not this is sufficient

    9 already, but if Your Honour prefers to see this video,

    10 then so be it.

    11 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, please, I would

    12 like to say something.

    13 JUDGE MAY: We'll play the video. Is there

    14 anything else you want to say?

    15 MR. SUSAK: I wished to say that some of the

    16 Prosecution witnesses said that the person, the guard,

    17 jumped over the fence, and another witness said that

    18 the guard went underneath the fence, and this video

    19 will prove that neither is possible.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Why don't you hand the video in

    21 and we'll play it?

    22 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be marked

    23 Exhibit D12/4, and the prior document is marked D11/4.

    24 (Videotape played)

    25 MR. SUSAK: We are going to stop at this

  88. 1 point a bit, please. Please, could we stop at this

    2 point a bit? Could you please rewind the tape a bit?

    3 (Videotape played)

    4 MR. SUSAK: That's right.

    5 Q. Could you please tell us now where the fence

    6 exactly is in terms of the road and where is the door?

    7 A. The fence is in front.

    8 Q. All right. But we can't see this on our

    9 screens.

    10 Now tell us. Where is the fence in relation

    11 to the main road and where is the entrance door into

    12 the yard of this warehouse?

    13 A. On the left-hand side is the fence.

    14 Q. That's where there is asphalt; right? That

    15 is the main road?

    16 A. Yes, that is the main road.

    17 Q. And we can see a car?

    18 A. Yes, we can see a car.

    19 Q. Now tell us, where is the door?

    20 A. On the front and on the right-hand side by

    21 the first pillar.

    22 Q. All right. All right. That is the entrance

    23 door.

    24 Now can we play the tape again?

    25 (Videotape played)

  89. 1 MR. SUSAK: This is a bit further away.

    2 Q. Ah. This is the entrance door; is that

    3 correct?

    4 A. Yes, yes.

    5 Q. So that part of the road is not asphalt;

    6 right?

    7 A. No, it's not.

    8 Q. Could you tell us about this a bit more?

    9 Where is the small door?

    10 Could we stop at this point? Stop, please.

    11 Stop.

    12 Which one is the small door?

    13 A. The small one is by the pillar.

    14 Q. It's open, and there is an iron bar over

    15 there holding it open; is that correct?

    16 A. No, no. I think that that iron bar is a

    17 pillar, rather.

    18 Q. Oh, I see.

    19 A. And you can open it left and right.

    20 MR. SUSAK: We can go on now. We can play

    21 the tape.

    22 (Videotape played)

    23 Q. As we are talking about this, could you tell

    24 me how high this fence is?

    25 A. I think about 2 metres high.

  90. 1 MR. SUSAK: Could we stop at this point

    2 again? We're going to stop at this point.

    3 Q. What can you see here? This is a window;

    4 right?

    5 A. Yes, a window.

    6 Q. What else can you see on this house?

    7 A. On the right-hand side is the entrance door,

    8 and there is a window.

    9 Q. Can you see the western window of that house?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. That is to say, from the house of Drago

    12 Josipovic, can you see the window facing west?

    13 A. I don't think so. I don't think so. Not

    14 from this direction if Josipovic's house is behind our

    15 backs now.

    16 Q. How high is this window? How high up is it

    17 in terms of the ground?

    18 A. I don't know.

    19 Q. Well, give us an approximation.

    20 A. Well, I don't know. About 70 centimetres or

    21 a metre, I don't know.

    22 Q. About 70 of what?

    23 A. About 70 centimetres.

    24 MR. SUSAK: All right. So let's go on.

    25 Could we play the tape.

  91. 1 (Videotape played)

    2 A. There is a part here that didn't exist

    3 before.

    4 Q. Which is this part that did not exist before?

    5 A. The one added on the left-hand side.

    6 Q. We should not go back -- on the right-hand

    7 side -- right. So this is that door; is that right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And also the smaller gate. That is

    10 the macadam space in front of the gate; is that right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Could you tell us, in passing, whose houses

    13 are on the other side of the guardhouse?

    14 A. I think that there are Muslim houses.

    15 MR. SUSAK: We can go on playing the tape.

    16 We shouldn't keep it at the same place.

    17 (Videotape played)

    18 Q. Now, what is this? This is the entrance to

    19 what?

    20 A. This is the entrance at the small door on the

    21 other side.

    22 Q. This small door, do you think that we can see

    23 it on the aerial photograph?

    24 A. Yes, I think so.

    25 MR. SUSAK: Please let us stop at this

  92. 1 point. Let us stop at this point.

    2 Q. Could you tell me what this is, which window

    3 is this?

    4 A. This is the window facing west, on the other

    5 side; that is to say, opposite to the entrance door.

    6 Q. When you get out of that window, do you get

    7 to the wire fence straightaway?

    8 A. The wire fence is just by the building.

    9 Q. All right. Can you climb this wire fencing?

    10 A. Yes, I think so, because it is thick wiring

    11 and I think that a man can actually climb it.

    12 MR. SUSAK: All right. Now let's go on. Can

    13 we stop at this point now? Yes. We've gone back

    14 again.

    15 Q. This is the entrance?

    16 A. Yes, yes, that is the entrance. The small

    17 one, the small gate.

    18 Q. You said that a new building was built next

    19 to the guardhouse. Which part is that?

    20 A. You can't see it from here.

    21 Q. All right. But I'm going to ask you that

    22 later on when I show you the photograph.

    23 So that's the door?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Could you tell me which door is locked at

  93. 1 this gate?

    2 A. Usually the big one.

    3 Q. Why?

    4 A. So that someone wouldn't get in. Usually

    5 there were big boxes in there; so that they couldn't be

    6 carried out.

    7 Q. All right. So it's only tractors and trucks?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Can you see this wire fencing here and is it

    10 actually attached to the soil?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Can a man crawl underneath?

    13 A. I don't think so.

    14 Q. What do you mean, you don't think so? Do you

    15 know or do you not know?

    16 A. I think not because it goes all the way into

    17 the soil.

    18 Q. It shows the fence going into the ground.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Could you tell us about these wiring spaces,

    21 because you used to come there all the time so you

    22 know.

    23 A. Well, this kind of netting is being taken for

    24 reinforcement, so it's 12 by 25 centimetres, usually.

    25 MR. SUSAK: Now let us see whether a man can

  94. 1 climb over this fence. I must tell you that this man

    2 weighs about 115 kilogrammes, though.

    3 Q. So can one really negotiate this fence?

    4 A. Yes --

    5 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think we've seen the

    6 demonstration. I don't think this witness can talk any

    7 further about it.

    8 MR. SUSAK: All right. All right. That's

    9 fine, Mr. President. I agree with you. So we are not

    10 going to play the tape anymore, not at this point.

    11 JUDGE MAY: Can you give us the date or the

    12 month when this was taken?

    13 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I cannot say for

    14 sure, but I know that I spent a bit over a month in

    15 Vitez, and that is when I filmed it. I can tell you

    16 the exact date on Monday, though. I think it was in

    17 December last year.

    18 JUDGE MAY: Good. That's sufficient. Thank

    19 you. Perhaps you could check the exact date out in due

    20 course?

    21 It is coming up to 1.00. Is there anything

    22 more that you want to ask of this witness?

    23 MR. SUSAK: Well, I did want to put a few

    24 questions, but they won't go on very long, about ten or

    25 fifteen minutes.

  95. 1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. After the

    2 adjournment. We will adjourn now until 3.00, we will

    3 continue the hearing then, and I hope we will be able

    4 to finish with this witness this afternoon.

    5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.





















  96. 1 --- On resuming at 3.00 p.m.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Susak.

    3 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    4 would, first of all, like to correct myself because I

    5 kept speaking about an aerial photograph, whereas it is

    6 D11/4, and it is a photograph, in fact, and it is the

    7 same photograph which the Prosecutor tendered into

    8 evidence as P247. So it is a photograph and not an

    9 aerial representation, so that was my mistake and I

    10 apologise. I'm now going to ask the witness a few more

    11 questions.

    12 Q. You described the guardhouse and the fence.

    13 Would you tell us whether anything was added on to the

    14 facility after 1993?

    15 A. I saw, after the war, that a section was

    16 built on towards the warehouse space.

    17 MR. SUSAK: I should now like to ask the

    18 usher to show the witness the photograph which is

    19 numbered D11/4 so that we don't have to show the

    20 videotape again.

    21 Q. Could you tell us what part we're talking

    22 about?

    23 A. From the entrance, the door.

    24 Q. Then would you circle what is new using a

    25 pencil or, better still, a Magic Marker, and would you

  97. 1 place it on the ELMO, please, so that we can all see

    2 it? Now draw a circle. Would the usher move the

    3 photograph somewhat so that we can see it better? A

    4 little bit more. Now draw a circle around the new

    5 part.

    6 A. It's this part here (indicating).

    7 Q. You can mark everything.

    8 A. All right. (Marks).

    9 Q. Show us the new part because we don't want

    10 people to think that it is the guardhouse itself, so

    11 put an arrow there.

    12 A. (Marks)

    13 Q. So that is where the addition has been made

    14 and it is a continuation of the guardhouse?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Were there any other alterations made to the

    17 facility, the fence, the gate, or anything else on the

    18 Ogrjev facility?

    19 A. Well, I didn't notice anything else.

    20 Q. All right. Thank you. We may proceed.

    21 MR. SUSAK: Would the usher show the witness

    22 another photograph? It is D13, Defence Exhibit 13/4.

    23 Would the usher kindly place the photograph on the ELMO

    24 once again?

    25 Q. Mr. Strukar, would you look at the photograph

  98. 1 and tell us what you see? Have you received the

    2 photograph?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Could you tell us what window that is on the

    5 guardhouse?

    6 A. This could be the window facing west, on the

    7 west side.

    8 Q. You said "it could be." Is it the west

    9 window of the guardhouse or not?

    10 A. Yes, it is.

    11 Q. According to you, we see a man stepping out

    12 from the windowsill to the wire fence. How has the

    13 wire fence been attached to the pillars?

    14 A. They are concrete pillars, and there are wire

    15 sort of bearings on the pillars to which the wire

    16 measure is attached.

    17 MR. SUSAK: That concludes our examination of

    18 that photograph, and I once again ask the usher to show

    19 the witness the next photograph.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

    21 D14/4.

    22 MR. SUSAK:

    23 Q. Mr. Strukar, what does this photograph show?

    24 A. It is the entrance gate to Ogrjev.

    25 Q. Would you mark, using the letter "X," the

  99. 1 small gate?

    2 A. (Marks)

    3 Q. Very well. How far does the gate extend?

    4 A. You mean the small gate or the large part of

    5 the gate? This is the small portion of the gate up to

    6 here (indicating), and then further on -- this is one

    7 whole gate, a complete, and the other goes up to the

    8 pillar.

    9 Q. So shall we indicate gate number 1 and gate

    10 number 2? What goes together, the first two portions

    11 and the other two portions made up of a big one and a

    12 small one. As you worked in the police station, this

    13 small gate, was it locked?

    14 A. This small gate was kept unlocked so that we

    15 could enter when we were patrolling the area.

    16 Q. Why wasn't it locked?

    17 A. Well, there was no need because there was a

    18 guard in the guardhouse. We wouldn't be able to reach

    19 the guard had the gate been locked.

    20 Q. That completes this portion of the

    21 examination. May we now proceed to another area?

    22 Anto Papic is mentioned in this case, and

    23 court witnesses and the Prosecutor have stated that in

    24 the house, it was the Muslims and Croats who were

    25 protected, that is, Anto Papic gave shelter to Muslims

  100. 1 and Croats in his own house. Would you tell us who

    2 Anto Papic is?

    3 A. Anto Papic who lived in Santici, you mean?

    4 Q. Yes. That's the man I mean.

    5 A. Well, it is a poor person, an elderly, poor

    6 person. He was not employed anywhere.

    7 Q. How did you come to know Anto Papic?

    8 A. Well, he used to come to the police station

    9 frequently and complain that children from the

    10 neighbourhood were playing ball in his field, and he

    11 would caution them, and then he would come to us for

    12 protection, to stop the children from playing football

    13 on his land.

    14 Q. You said that he was a poor man, that he was

    15 a poor man of the village. Who did he live with in his

    16 house?

    17 A. I think he had a wife. I think he had

    18 children, one or two. I don't know.

    19 Q. Did he have a sister?

    20 A. I don't really know.

    21 MR. SUSAK: I should once again like to ask

    22 the usher to show the witness the next photograph.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

    24 D15/4.

    25 MR. SUSAK:

  101. 1 Q. Is that Anto Papic's house?

    2 A. Yes, it is. That is the only house without a

    3 roof in this area, and so it is easily recognisable.

    4 Q. What does it mean that it doesn't have a

    5 roof?

    6 A. Well, he was a poor man, and he didn't have

    7 the money to cover the house with a roof. He's the

    8 only one without a roof.

    9 Q. Were you ever in his house?

    10 A. Yes, on two or three occasions.

    11 Q. Would you tell us where the entrance door is

    12 to the house?

    13 A. The entrance door is in the middle of the

    14 house.

    15 Q. Would you place an arrow at the entrance to

    16 the house? If you were on the ground floor, can you,

    17 perhaps, remember how many rooms there were?

    18 A. I think there were two.

    19 Q. And each room had one window, as far as can

    20 be seen?

    21 A. Yes, that's right. One was a sort of sitting

    22 room and it had a stove inside, and the other room was

    23 a bedroom.

    24 Q. As there were refugees there and over 25

    25 individuals, could they have spent 24 hours in those

  102. 1 rooms on those premises and slept there? Was that

    2 possible?

    3 A. Well, they could have spent a short time

    4 there, but to sleep there and live there, they could

    5 not because there just wasn't enough space, at least I

    6 don't think they could.

    7 Q. Well, if there were so many people there,

    8 were they able to sleep in those rooms?

    9 A. No, they were not, and I don't think he had

    10 any food to feed them with.

    11 Q. If he was a poor man, did he have any

    12 blankets to cover the people with because there were

    13 children without clothes and women?

    14 A. Perhaps he had blankets for himself, covers,

    15 but I don't think that he could have had covers for all

    16 those people.

    17 Q. You said that he came to you to complain

    18 because children were playing football on his land or

    19 something of that kind?

    20 A. Yes, that's right. Below his house, there is

    21 a field, and he grew alfalfa there, and children would

    22 play ball there.

    23 Q. Could you tell us where the house is located

    24 in relation to the village? Is it at the end of the

    25 village?

  103. 1 A. It is the last house towards the Lasva River

    2 in a sort of thicket. There's a thicket around the

    3 house.

    4 Q. Is there a valley?

    5 A. Yes, there is a small valley below.

    6 Q. So it lies in a valley. What is there

    7 opposite to the house? Is there a shed of any kind?

    8 A. Yes. He's got his own shed across from the

    9 house.

    10 Q. Is the shed in a hollow?

    11 A. It is below the road and dug in, not really

    12 dug in, but under a slope, and it is this slope which

    13 forms part of the shed.

    14 Q. Can that be used as a kind of shelter?

    15 A. Well, it could be, yes.

    16 Q. So is the shed protected and, if so, in what

    17 way?

    18 A. Yes, it is protected by a natural incline or

    19 slope.

    20 Q. Now, I would like to ask you how far that

    21 house is, if you can tell us, from Nikola Omazic's

    22 house.

    23 A. Nikola Omazic's house is between 50 and 100

    24 metres away, not far off. There's a little thicket

    25 behind the house, and behind that thicket is where

  104. 1 Omazic's house is situated.

    2 Q. What about the crossroads?

    3 A. It is near Omazic's house and Anto Papic's

    4 house.

    5 Q. How far is the crossroads away from Nikola

    6 Omazic's house, in your assessment?

    7 A. Some 30 metres. I think it is less, 20

    8 metres. I measured it myself. Well, yes, maybe.

    9 Q. I have two more questions for you. How far

    10 do you think Anto Papic's house is from Fahrudin

    11 Ahmic's house?

    12 A. You mean the house by the road?

    13 Q. Yes.

    14 A. I think it is about 250 metres as the crow

    15 flies.

    16 Q. If you were to go on foot, how far away would

    17 it be then?

    18 A. Then it would be at least 300 or 350 metres

    19 because you would have to go around by the house, go

    20 out onto the main road, and then go back.

    21 Q. If you went on foot, could you be seen

    22 walking along that road in that direction, and was it

    23 dangerous in view of the shooting?

    24 A. I don't think you would see anybody passing

    25 because there are thickets and it is a winding path, if

  105. 1 you use the path, take the path. And if you don't,

    2 then behind the thicket behind Papic's house, there is

    3 a field, and then this could be seen.

    4 Q. So across the field, anybody crossing the

    5 field and going that way could be seen, and if you went

    6 in the roundabout way using the thicket, you would not

    7 be seen; is that correct?

    8 A. Yes, it is.

    9 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions,

    10 Mr. President, of this witness. Thank you.

    11 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    12 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    13 Q. Witness, my name is Franck Terrier. I am one

    14 of the members of the Prosecution, and I'm going to put

    15 a number of questions to you during your testimony here

    16 today. First of all --

    17 JUDGE MAY: There is one matter that

    18 Mr. Susak wants to raise. Do you want to move the

    19 exhibits into evidence?

    20 MR. SUSAK: From number 11 to number 15D, I

    21 should like to tender those documents into evidence.

    22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let that be done.

    23 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    24 Q. Witness, before coming back to the merits of

    25 your testimony here today, I would like first to make

  106. 1 sure that I have understood your profession and what

    2 qualifications you have. I would like you to go back

    3 to what I thought was some sort of employment record

    4 book which, I believe, was kept, and I believe it was

    5 given the number D77/2. I believe that the registrar

    6 has a copy of this, unless, of course, you still have

    7 it.

    8 Witness, if I understood the explanations you

    9 gave with regard to this document when it was being

    10 examined, this is a professional document which looks

    11 over the various phases of your career with the

    12 administration of the police within the Republic of

    13 Bosnia Herzegovina. But I understand that there was no

    14 photography, or no photograph, rather, in this

    15 document.

    16 A. I think there were no photographs,

    17 unemployment books, employment records. I didn't

    18 notice any.

    19 Q. Witness, I'd like to direct your attention to

    20 page 6. Page 6 of this employment book.

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Here there are two things written. The

    23 first, which mentions the date which you entered into

    24 service, 1981, and then up until 1996, it says

    25 something about your service, the service in Zenica and

  107. 1 in Vitez. And from 1990 to 1992, isn't that curious,

    2 sir, that it mentions that your date of termination is

    3 in 1992 on the 19th of October, that this mention was

    4 not certified by any type of stamp from administration?

    5 A. I actually received this employment book at

    6 the Republic and Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo,

    7 and that is what they gave me, stamped in this way.

    8 And as regards the first item -- as far as the first

    9 item is concerned, the 1st of July 1980 until the 31st

    10 of December 1989, these are certain administrative

    11 things that they entered on their own. I don't really

    12 know on which basis. Before, the security centre used

    13 to be called the public security station. That's the

    14 one that is mentioned here. Before, it was called the

    15 Public Security Section; then it was the Municipal

    16 Secretariat of Internal Affairs. So those were the

    17 former names, and perhaps that is why this was written

    18 this way.

    19 Q. Witness, on which date was this document

    20 given to you?

    21 A. I got this when we could enter Sarajevo once

    22 again.

    23 Q. Given the circumstances, would you please

    24 specify the date, or at least approximately, the time

    25 period in which this document was remitted to you?

  108. 1 A. Approximately in '94. Perhaps the end

    2 of'94. And then '95, because I submitted a request for

    3 a pension, for a retirement pension, and they wanted my

    4 employment book. And then I went to Sarajevo to get

    5 it, and then I retired.

    6 Q. Sir, given everything that is written here on

    7 this same page --

    8 A. I don't understand your question. You just

    9 put half a question.

    10 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. What I'm asking is, perhaps

    11 I didn't use the correct terms, but I'm wondering

    12 whether or not all of the -- what appears on this page,

    13 the two series of information on page 6, appears to you

    14 to have been written by the same person, with the same

    15 writing.

    16 A. This employment book was given to the Public

    17 Security Station in Vitez in May 1980, and I only

    18 picked it up in Sarajevo in 1984. And now when they

    19 made these entries, that, I really don't know.

    20 Q. Perhaps you would agree with me in saying

    21 that there is nothing that officially states here in

    22 this document that it was submitted to you, completed

    23 in 1994; there is nothing officially stated in this

    24 document that states that it was completed in 1992 and

    25 submitted to you in 1994. Would you agree with me on

  109. 1 that?

    2 A. All these data exist in the Ministry of the

    3 Interior of the Federal Republic in Sarajevo.

    4 Q. Sir, if I correctly understood your

    5 explanation, it seems that you received training in the

    6 area of criminal investigations in Sarajevo, and that

    7 you then returned to Vitez in 1992. And that was in

    8 April, 1992.

    9 A. I attended this course at the beginning

    10 of '92, and then when the war broke out in Sarajevo on

    11 the 4th or on the 3rd of April, when there was this

    12 blockade of Sarajevo, then my colleague and I managed

    13 to get out of Sarajevo and get back to Vitez, and then

    14 we started working there.

    15 Q. And the activities from the moment of April

    16 1992 consisted of investigating criminal acts; is that

    17 correct?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And up until which time did you carry out

    20 these functions? Perhaps you still do so.

    21 A. No, no, I'm just a criminology technician.

    22 Or rather until '94.

    23 Q. I'm sorry, would you please specify what work

    24 you carried out after 1994, and up until today.

    25 A. I worked in the police as a criminology

  110. 1 technician until the outbreak of the conflict, and

    2 during the conflict as well. I continued to work in

    3 the police station, and I was involved in technical

    4 work related to crime investigation.

    5 Q. Do you still occupy these duties today?

    6 A. No, I retired. I retired in 1994, at the end

    7 of '94, beginning of '95.

    8 Q. I'm sorry, but given your age, are you saying

    9 that now you are now retired?

    10 A. Well, that's the way it turned out to be.

    11 Those were the conditions that were provided at that

    12 time, because years of service spent at the police

    13 station entitled a person to special benefits after 15

    14 years of service, and then you get an extra year for

    15 every year actually spent working. So I actually met

    16 the requirements.

    17 Q. I understand, so that you've now retired from

    18 the police department. But I'm asking you now whether

    19 or not you -- what do you do as a retired person? Do

    20 you simply live as a retired person now, or do you have

    21 other activities?

    22 A. Yes, yes, I have a grill. My wife has a

    23 grill restaurant in the town of Vitez.

    24 Q. Vitez; I see. Sir, what makes you a

    25 specialist with regards to the Ogrjev installation?

  111. 1 Because we've shown these photos to you and asked you

    2 what direction it faced, and I would like to know, how

    3 is it that you have come to know this building so well?

    4 A. Ogrjev is just by the main road. I pass by

    5 every day. I go to purchase the goods we need, and I

    6 pass there every day, and it's very noticeable. Ogrjev

    7 also had construction materials, so sometimes I would

    8 come there with my co-workers who were building houses,

    9 and perhaps I would help them load some of these

    10 construction materials. So I'm familiar with it. And

    11 then also, while I was employed at the police station,

    12 I would sometimes come with my colleagues to see the

    13 guard over there, because when we were on night shifts

    14 it was one of our duties to see the guards and to see

    15 whether they had any problems, and then we'd sit there

    16 and talk to them.

    17 Q. Were you present when the film we saw today

    18 was made?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Do you know the accused Drago Josipovic?

    21 A. I just saw him once, before he left. I

    22 didn't know him before that.

    23 Q. Where did you see him?

    24 A. At the cemetery, at Topolsko cemetery. There

    25 was a funeral there, and I saw him with his wife. I've

  112. 1 known his wife because she is a political figure, so I

    2 realised that he was her husband.

    3 Q. And what do you mean when you say that Madam

    4 Josipovic was a political figure?

    5 A. Well, in the municipality --

    6 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment; there's an

    7 objection.

    8 Yes.

    9 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, in terms of

    10 Article 7 of the statute, every one has individual

    11 responsibilities. Slavica Josipovic is not indicted,

    12 and I believe this is pointless, and I believe this

    13 works against my client, Drago Josipovic.

    14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President?

    15 JUDGE MAY: No, this question is allowed.

    16 The witness was saying that he knew the wife of an

    17 accused; the Prosecution are entitled to explore that.

    18 It seems to me it's a totally relevant matter.

    19 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    20 Q. Would you like me to repeat the question?

    21 A. No. I knew Slavica Josipovic. She worked at

    22 the municipality next door to us, and I cooperated with

    23 her before.

    24 Q. I'm sorry, sir, you did not yet answer my

    25 question. You mentioned the fact that she was a

  113. 1 political personality. In what way was Mrs. Josipovic

    2 a political figure?

    3 A. As far as I know, she was in the HDZ. But I

    4 don't know which office she held.

    5 Q. Does being a political figure mean, in this

    6 case, being an important member of the HDZ?

    7 A. Well, no, not only in that structure, but in

    8 government too.

    9 Q. Sir, have you ever gone into the house of

    10 Drago Josipovic?

    11 A. No, never.

    12 Q. In that case, how is it that you were able to

    13 respond to the question put to you by Mr. Susak, who

    14 asked you whether such-and-such a window could be seen

    15 from the window in Mr. Drago Josipovic's house?

    16 A. Across from Ogrjev, just a bit lower, on the

    17 other side of the road is the house of Drago

    18 Josipovic.

    19 Q. Therefore you answered using an assumption.

    20 Do you have a very clear and exact memory of the Ogrjev

    21 building in 1993, that is to say in April 1993?

    22 A. I think -- well, precisely, yes.

    23 Q. Do you remember then, outside of the main

    24 entrance that we have seen abundantly on the film and

    25 also in the photograph, another door which gave direct

  114. 1 access to the road?

    2 A. I do not remember having seen that.

    3 MR. TERRIER: Would the usher please show the

    4 witness very quickly Document 245, Prosecution

    5 Exhibit 245.

    6 Q. Sir, this photograph was taken on the 16th of

    7 April, 1993, by a British officer. Do you recognise

    8 what is seen here in this photograph?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Do you recognise the fence for the Ogrjev

    11 facility on the right?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Do you see on this fence, indeed in the

    14 beginning part of this fence, a gate which is closed in

    15 this photograph?

    16 A. I do here. Here (indicating). You're

    17 referring to this; right?

    18 Q. Thank you. Now, this gate which you've just

    19 pointed out for us, does that still exist today?

    20 A. I don't think so.

    21 Q. Are we therefore to conclude then that the

    22 premises have been modified? Are we in agreement with

    23 that?

    24 A. This part, yes.

    25 Q. Sir, have you ever gone into the house of

  115. 1 Mr. Anto Papic?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. In that case, how were you able to give us

    4 your point of view about what was located within that

    5 house?

    6 A. I did not say that I was talking about

    7 that -- oh, yes, Anto Papic. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm

    8 sorry. I thought that you were referring to Drago

    9 Josipovic. Anto Papic; is that the question?

    10 Q. Yes, Anto Papic, that's right.

    11 A. Yes, yes, yes. I did go to his home, yes. I

    12 did go to his home.

    13 Q. For what reason did you go to Mr. Anto

    14 Papic's home?

    15 A. He came to see us because of our children who

    16 were playing on his lawn and they messed up his grass,

    17 and he wanted us to come and see this for ourselves and

    18 to tell our children not to do that because our

    19 children only made fun of him and didn't take what he

    20 said seriously, so then we really went to see his place

    21 and we had a cup of coffee with him there.

    22 Q. I see. At that time, were you living close

    23 to the house of Mr. Anto Papic?

    24 A. No. I lived in Vitez.

    25 Q. But you would go to Ahmici, is that right,

  116. 1 with your children?

    2 A. No, no. No, I didn't have to go to Ahmici.

    3 Q. Excuse me. I wish to try to understand. You

    4 stated, if I understand correctly, according to the

    5 transcript, that your children allegedly damaged the

    6 lawn of Mr. Anto Papic; is that correct?

    7 A. No. It was children from his neighbourhood.

    8 There is this Lasva River where they go to swim and

    9 then they go out and they play ball on his lawn, and

    10 then we would come to caution these children to not to

    11 do this.

    12 Q. I understand. Generally speaking then,

    13 before the month of April 1993, would you often go

    14 either for personal reasons or in your professional

    15 capacity to Ahmici?

    16 A. No, not very often, no, not to the village of

    17 Ahmici. I would pass through Ahmici along the main

    18 road, but I didn't really ...

    19 Q. With regards to the lawn that was somewhat

    20 damaged, are you saying that the police would go to

    21 Ahmici for something like that?

    22 A. Yes. The policemen who worked on the

    23 ground. Then they went to Ahmici, Nadioci, Poculica,

    24 Kruscica, Krcevine, et cetera, and then we'd come by

    25 and tell them what not to do.

  117. 1 Q. The question I'm asking you: In the

    2 circumstances at that time, would incidents as minor as

    3 children walking on someone's lawn justify sending out

    4 the police?

    5 A. Our police had people who used to work out on

    6 the ground, and they would patrol villages and receive

    7 reports and resolve these matters on the ground.

    8 Q. Sir, this was not your case. You were a

    9 technician, a criminology technician. You were not a

    10 specialist in lawns being stepped on or played on by

    11 children.

    12 A. No, but as soon as I finished school in '80,

    13 '81, '82, I worked in that area with these other

    14 policemen, and we would pass by and tell people what

    15 they were not supposed to do.

    16 Q. Sir, do you know the accused Vlado Santic?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Can you please explain to this Trial Chamber

    19 under what circumstances you came to know him and what

    20 relations you had with him, personal relations or

    21 professional relations?

    22 A. I met Vlado Santic when I started working at

    23 the police station. Actually, I met him before that,

    24 when I was supposed to go to school. He brought me the

    25 news that I had been admitted into this school. When I

  118. 1 finished this school, I started working in Vitez, and I

    2 have known him ever since and we were friends.

    3 Q. Would you please explain more in detail about

    4 the time period of interest; that is to say, April 1992

    5 to, let's say, April 1993?

    6 A. In '92, Vlado Santic worked in the crime

    7 investigation police, and then he was transferred to, I

    8 think, the military police, so we didn't work together

    9 anymore.

    10 Q. Would you please specify the dates on which

    11 Vlado Santic was sent to work in the military police?

    12 A. The date? I could not really specify it.

    13 Q. Could you specify the time period?

    14 A. Perhaps mid '92.

    15 Q. So you're stating then that after mid 1992,

    16 you no longer had any contact with Vlado Santic due to

    17 the fact that he went to join the military police?

    18 A. We did not have any professional cooperation,

    19 but we would see each other every now and then and have

    20 a drink perhaps.

    21 Q. I see. But before that, did you have close

    22 relations?

    23 A. Yes. But life is so fast, so very busy, and

    24 with all these events unravelling, there wasn't much

    25 time for socialising.

  119. 1 Q. I understand. I would like now to turn to

    2 the question of the composition of the police

    3 department in Vitez in which you yourself worked. You

    4 stated that the chief of this department was Pero

    5 Skopljak, at least at the time at which you entered

    6 into service in 1992, in April. What was Pero

    7 Skopljak's professional background?

    8 A. I only know that in '91, when the elections

    9 were held, that he was appointed by the political party

    10 that he represented, and I don't know about his

    11 background.

    12 Q. Was he a person that was trained to

    13 administer the police and trained in police techniques?

    14 A. He had a university degree, but I don't know

    15 about police work. Usually political persons were

    16 appointed to these posts.

    17 Q. When Pero Skopljak was appointed to this post

    18 at the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, you would

    19 say this was a political appointment which would not be

    20 justified by any professional specialties or special

    21 expertise in this particular area; is that what you're

    22 saying?

    23 A. That's the way it was in practice before, and

    24 it was inherited that way too, so to speak.

    25 Q. I understand. Was Pero Skopljak and

  120. 1 Mr. Vlado Santic, did the two men have any close

    2 relations, personal relations, to your knowledge?

    3 A. I wouldn't know that.

    4 Q. A moment ago, you talked about the police

    5 reserves, that is to say, police positions made up of

    6 reservists and who were sent into various local

    7 communities surrounding Vitez, and you stated that one

    8 of these police stations made up of reservists was

    9 stationed in Ahmici, Santici, and Nadioci, and this was

    10 led by Zaid Ahmic. Would you please tell us whether

    11 these local police forces made up of police reserves

    12 were ethnically balanced?

    13 A. Yes, yes, yes. In local communities, yes.

    14 Q. Was this ethnic balance representative of the

    15 ethnic composition of the municipality?

    16 A. Yes. Usually an effort was made to have it

    17 half-half.

    18 Q. Consequently, when the reserve posts for

    19 Ahmici were mentioned, including Santici, we are to

    20 understand that the reserve police force was made up of

    21 Muslims and of Croats?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Therefore, we are to understand that when

    24 weapons were distributed to these police reservists,

    25 they were sent both to Croats and to Muslims?

  121. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Were you informed that after the month of

    3 October 1992, at the end of October 1992, that the

    4 Croatian authorities asked for the Muslim members in

    5 the areas of Ahmici, Santici, and another part of that

    6 area to submit or surrender their weapons?

    7 A. I am not aware of that.

    8 Q. Witness, let us talk now about the ethnic

    9 balance within the professional police force within

    10 Vitez.

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you stated that this

    13 balance was maintained up until October 1992 and that

    14 after October 1992 that the Muslims, or many Muslims

    15 who made up the police force in Vitez, went or split

    16 off to form another group in Mahala. You also stated

    17 that in 1992, a certain person named Arko Kraljevic [as

    18 interpreted] entered into the police station in Vitez

    19 and disarmed a number of Muslim police officers?

    20 A. I don't recall that. I wasn't there. I

    21 don't remember him disarming these people.

    22 Q. I need to correct the transcript which does

    23 not reflect faithfully the question I just put to you.

    24 With your permission, Witness, I would like to ask you

    25 once again: Do you remember this event which took

  122. 1 place in June 1992 and do you recall that Darko

    2 Kraljevic and several other persons from the HVO

    3 entered into this police station and disarmed the

    4 Muslim policemen located there and then finally kicked

    5 them out of this police station, of course? Do you

    6 recall this event?

    7 A. I don't remember that event.

    8 Q. Now, did you know Mr. Darko Kraljevic?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Would you please explain exactly who this

    11 person is?

    12 A. He is a member of the special purposes unit

    13 formed by the HOS and the Vitezovi.

    14 Q. Sir, do you recall that following a number of

    15 incidents, including the one I have just mentioned and

    16 which you do not recall, that relations between the

    17 Croat policemen and Muslim policemen gradually

    18 deteriorated during the summer of 1992 and the fall of

    19 1992 to such an extent that a split occurred during the

    20 month of October? In your opinion, if this doesn't

    21 correspond to your own memory, what were the causes of

    22 this deep splintering between the Croatian and Muslim

    23 policemen?

    24 A. Before the Muslims and Croats separated, in

    25 the police station it was said that HDZ, SDA, that is

  123. 1 to say the political parties, which political party

    2 would win, which would lead, and so those were the

    3 types of discussions that were going on at the police

    4 station at that time and the differences of view was

    5 with relation to political issues.

    6 Q. Would it be correct to say that in October

    7 1992, Pero Skopljak was replaced by Mirko Samija, the

    8 name that you mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Samija, and

    9 that the new head of police in Vitez notified the

    10 Muslims that they would be subject to an investigation

    11 in Mostar?

    12 A. I'm not aware of that. I do know that after

    13 Pero Skopljak resigned Mirko Samija replaced him, and

    14 that an investigation should come from Mostar, I'm not

    15 aware of that.

    16 Q. Sir, you mentioned that there was a growing

    17 insecurity in Vitez and in the area of Vitez during the

    18 year of 1992 and during the early weeks of 1993. It

    19 seemed to me, but perhaps you may correct me if you

    20 feel that I'm incorrect, it seems to me that you were

    21 implying that this situation of insecurity -- rather,

    22 you were blaming this insecurity on this militia army

    23 such as the HOS and the Vitezovi and perhaps the

    24 Jokeri. Have I correctly interpreted your statements?

    25 A. Yes.

  124. 1 Q. In your own opinion, did these armed militias

    2 pursue different objectives than that of the HVO?

    3 A. I don't know what their objectives were. All

    4 I know is that we, as the civilian police, were able to

    5 do nothing because if a uniformed young man showed that

    6 he belonged to some kind of unit, then he would do what

    7 he liked and we weren't able to go about our duties,

    8 but I don't know what the political objectives were or

    9 anything like that.

    10 Q. In this regard, with regard to your own

    11 duties to respond as a civilian police officer, would

    12 it make a difference whether someone belonged to one of

    13 the militias, such as the Jokeri or the HOS, or whether

    14 they belonged to another unit, such as a regular unit,

    15 if you will, of the HVO, such as those coming from the

    16 Vitez Brigade? Would there be a difference for you

    17 whether they were a member of the HVO or a member of

    18 the militia?

    19 A. Well, there was a difference, yes.

    20 Q. Would you please specify what that difference

    21 would be?

    22 A. The paramilitary ones would usually wear

    23 black uniforms. They would have very short haircuts,

    24 practically no hair at all. Individuals who were

    25 members of these units would get drunk, they were prone

  125. 1 to carousing, and they would disturb law and order

    2 generally, whereas the ones in the brigade, they were

    3 okay men.

    4 Q. Would you please remind me -- I know you've

    5 already spoken of this, but I think this is important

    6 enough for me to repeat this question. Could you

    7 remind me of which authority was in place and had

    8 command of the HOS, the Vitezovi?

    9 A. In Vitez, the HOS was an independent,

    10 autonomous unit, and what they decided to do, they did.

    11 Q. There must have been a leader or a

    12 commander. I think you mentioned it a minute ago.

    13 A. The chief of the Vitezovi was Darko Kraljevic

    14 in Vitez.

    15 Q. Can you please tell us whether or not they

    16 had any Jokers?

    17 A. I heard about the Jokers, that they were

    18 stationed in Nadioci and that they belonged to a

    19 military police unit.

    20 Q. What was the chain of command under which

    21 they were located?

    22 A. I really don't know. I don't know.

    23 Q. You don't know? You know it for the HOS but

    24 not for the Jokers?

    25 A. They were more isolated and didn't cause as

  126. 1 many problems as HOS. I only knew of their name. I

    2 had just heard of them by name, but I didn't actually

    3 know them.

    4 Q. You don't any of the officers at that time,

    5 none of the persons in charge at that time?

    6 A. No.

    7 MR. TERRIER: Now I would like to request

    8 that the usher show to the witness document 343,

    9 Exhibit 343.

    10 Q. Sir, I'm showing this document to you now

    11 simply in order to perhaps call your attention to the

    12 heading and to see to whom this order was addressed,

    13 and you see here that it is signed by Colonel Blaskic.

    14 You may also note that among the persons to whom this

    15 is addressed you'll find the Vitezovi formation?

    16 A. I can see that it says "Vitezovi."

    17 Q. Then could we not conclude, sir, that the

    18 forces within the Vitezovi, whom you've described in

    19 such a poor light as having had very poor behaviour and

    20 acting as drunks, that these people, indeed, were in

    21 the chain of command that went down from Colonel

    22 Blaskic?

    23 A. I was not aware of that. I just know that

    24 they worked, as I said beforehand, but as to these

    25 structures, I wasn't informed of that. I have no idea.

  127. 1 Q. Sir, you will also note that among the people

    2 to whom this order from Colonel Blaskic was addressed,

    3 you will also find the 4th Battalion of the military

    4 police in Vitez. Who was the head of this military

    5 police in Vitez?

    6 A. I think that for the 4th Battalion, the

    7 commander was -- just a moment. I think it was Ivan

    8 Budimir, the 4th Battalion Military Police.

    9 MR. TERRIER: I'm finished with this

    10 document.

    11 Q. Sir, in a document which was submitted a

    12 moment ago and tendered as evidence which is listed as

    13 D30/2, it is stated here that an incident occurred

    14 which you described in great detail and which was

    15 attributed to one person in particular from the

    16 Vitezovi. The author of this document who described

    17 this event, this incident, says that this incident is

    18 deplorable in that it gives the impression that the HVO

    19 forces are divided. I'm now referring to the last

    20 paragraph of this document. It is signed Pasko

    21 Ljubicic and Miso Mijic.

    22 Isn't this a sign, if not proof, of the fact

    23 that the militia, who we've just described and who

    24 behaved so poorly, these militias who were responsible

    25 for this feeling of insecurity in the area are, indeed,

  128. 1 within the chain of command of the HVO?

    2 A. I really don't know that. All I know is that

    3 it was rumoured and discussed, talked about, that all

    4 the units should be placed under one cap, so to speak,

    5 but as far as I know, all the special purposes units

    6 refused to come under any umbrella, military or

    7 otherwise, or any command or anything like that.

    8 Q. Witness, I'd like to now turn to another

    9 subject, and I'd like to talk about your own

    10 professional practices. You stated during the course

    11 of your testimony that -- rather, you gave the

    12 impression that you acted in a perfectly objective

    13 manner and that you would investigate any crime that

    14 was reported to you, regardless of whether or not this

    15 crime was attributable to Croats or to Muslims.

    16 I'd like to examine this further. First of

    17 all, I would like for you to specify what your

    18 professional relations were with the military police.

    19 In particular, I'm talking about you now as a civilian

    20 police officer. What was your power or competence in

    21 relation to the military police?

    22 A. Well, our competence was that if a military

    23 man took part in a crime, then we should turn him over

    24 to the military police.

    25 Q. Nonetheless, it seems that when a crime was

  129. 1 reported to you, it was your duty, nonetheless, to

    2 carry out an investigation of this crime?

    3 A. We should have -- it was up to us to carry

    4 out an investigation, but if it was a member of the

    5 military, then the military police would take over the

    6 case, and we would refer the case to them.

    7 Q. Couldn't it be imagined, perhaps, that the

    8 military police itself could have committed a crime [as

    9 translated]?

    10 In other words, if you allow me to specify or

    11 to elaborate more, you're saying that it was only when

    12 a military person or a soldier was identified as having

    13 been the perpetrator of a crime that you would then

    14 turn this person over to the military police?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. A moment ago, you mentioned a murder that

    17 took place ...

    18 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I believe that

    19 the interpreters are informing me now that there has

    20 been in the transcript an error. I, of course, did not

    21 state, this is at 16:20, that the military police could

    22 have committed a crime. I did not say that. I would

    23 not have even thought of such a thing. What I wanted

    24 to say was that the military police would have taken

    25 into their own hands the investigation of such a crime.

  130. 1 Q. Witness, a moment ago you mentioned the

    2 killing of Samir Trako in Vitez in May 1992?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Was an investigation conducted in which you

    5 participated?

    6 A. I did not take part in that investigation,

    7 but my colleagues did, and this investigation was

    8 conducted by the investigating judge from Travnik, I

    9 think it was. I don't know what actually happened, but

    10 I do recall that there was a murder in the hotel. I

    11 wasn't on duty at the time.

    12 Q. Was the victim a Muslim?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. At that time in May 1992, at the time of the

    15 murder of this Muslim, Samir Trako, was the Hotel Vitez

    16 occupied by the HVO?

    17 A. The military police was there, but I don't

    18 know as of what date.

    19 Q. The perpetrator of this crime, who was

    20 identified according to the report which was submitted

    21 to the Tribunal under D79/2, has been a person named

    22 Vukadinovic Perica and as having been a member of the

    23 HVO?

    24 A. I don't know. I think that the commission

    25 which went out to investigate determined whether he was

  131. 1 a member or not. I am not aware of that. I don't know

    2 if he was or wasn't.

    3 Q. Consequently, you don't know whether or not

    4 he was a member of the military police of the HVO?

    5 A. I don't know that.

    6 Q. To your knowledge, this person who was

    7 identified as the perpetrator of this crime, was that

    8 person arrested?

    9 A. As far as I know, he was not arrested.

    10 Q. Now, here we're at the end of May 1992. At

    11 that time, who was the chief of police in Vitez?

    12 A. Well, there were two police forces, the

    13 regional police force and the military police force. I

    14 don't know whether the 4th Battalion or -- I don't know

    15 exactly who that was. There were three types of

    16 police: The battalion, the municipal, and a regional

    17 one, and they all had their commanders. I think Ivan

    18 Budimir was, perhaps, the chief of the battalion one.

    19 Q. Sir, do you recall an incident that took

    20 place in November 1992 on the road from Vitez to

    21 Kruscica? This was the murder of two members of the

    22 Bosnian army, Huso Hadzic and Sead Ahem (phoen), and

    23 the third person was seriously wounded, Minet Akeljic.

    24 These three men were leaving a cafe when they were

    25 attacked. Do you recall this event?

  132. 1 A. I do.

    2 Q. Was there an investigation of the

    3 circumstances of this double assassination and this

    4 attempted assassination?

    5 A. I think so, yes. An investigation was

    6 carried out, I think, but I don't know. Usually, in a

    7 case of homicide, there would be an investigating judge

    8 there too, and a report would be filed, a criminal

    9 report.

    10 Q. Was the Vitez police involved in this

    11 investigation?

    12 A. Partly, yes, I think.

    13 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did this

    14 investigation lead to an arrest?

    15 A. I cannot remember.

    16 Q. Do you recall the disappearance in December

    17 1992 of a man named Armin Arnautovic?

    18 A. I do not remember that someone disappeared.

    19 Q. Does this name remind you or do you recall

    20 hearing this name?

    21 A. Would you please repeat that? What was the

    22 name?

    23 Q. Armin Arnautovic.

    24 A. "Arnautovic" is a well-known surname. Yes,

    25 "Arnautovic" is a surname that exists in Vitez, but

  133. 1 the first name ...

    2 Q. Do you have a memory of a supposed accident

    3 that occurred where someone allegedly was killed in an

    4 area called Zume?

    5 A. I do not recall.

    6 Q. You do not recall, then, having been

    7 personally in charge of an investigation, of this

    8 investigation?

    9 A. Possibly, but right at this very moment, I

    10 cannot remember this accident. There were many

    11 accidents.

    12 Q. And do you recall -- and I hope that you

    13 recall this -- an explosive attack against a Muslim

    14 store in Vitez in December 1992? I have here before me

    15 the name of some of the victims. I do not believe you

    16 will contest the fact that this attack took place, but

    17 my question is as follows: Did you carry out or

    18 conduct any investigation, and did these investigations

    19 lead to any arrests?

    20 A. I didn't really understand this. Do we know

    21 who the perpetrator was? Is that your question?

    22 A. No, sir, the question was as follows: In

    23 December, 1992, for example, in particular on the 24th

    24 and 25th and 26th of December 1992, several Muslim

    25 stores in Vitez were destroyed by explosive weapons.

  134. 1 Do you recall this?

    2 A. I recall that. I remember that explosives

    3 were thrown at Muslim cafes and shops. That, I

    4 remember.

    5 Q. Did these attacks lead to an investigation,

    6 and did these investigations allow you to arrest the

    7 perpetrators of these attacks?

    8 A. This was the subject of an investigation, but

    9 the perpetrators were not discovered.

    10 Q. Sir, I'd like to now turn to the murder of

    11 Mr. Esada Salkic in February 1993 in Nadioci. You

    12 stated now that you carried out an investigation, and I

    13 see here that you were able to carry out the

    14 identification of the person who was assassinated, or

    15 murdered, and that you also [interpretation

    16 interrupted] to the Kaonik prison. Could you please

    17 tell us, who was Miroslav Bralo?

    18 A. Until that moment, I never knew Miroslav

    19 Bralo. After that event, I got to know this person

    20 better. During the war, I had heard of him.

    21 Q. When you arrested him, was he a civilian, or

    22 military? Or a soldier?

    23 A. At that time, he was a civilian. He was in

    24 that capacity. And then in the police station, this

    25 was discussed, whether he belonged to someone or not.

  135. 1 And he said that he was a member of the Vitezovi. And

    2 then when we checked with the Vitezovi, they said no,

    3 that he was not their member. So that is why we

    4 continued to work on that case.

    5 Q. Was Miroslav Bralo ever brought to trial or

    6 arrested, rather, for his murder of Esada Salkic?

    7 A. He was delivered to the Kaonik prison, and

    8 proceedings were supposed to be initiated against him.

    9 But I do not know whether further proceedings were

    10 initiated or whether this was fully carried out. I

    11 don't know for sure. I just know that we started this,

    12 but how far it went, I don't know.

    13 Q. So you just stated that you learned a great

    14 deal about Miroslav Bralo during the war, but you did

    15 not know whether or not he had been tried or not?

    16 A. I was not interested in it later.

    17 Q. So you weren't informed that he left prison

    18 very quickly thereafter?

    19 A. We heard about it. I heard about it.

    20 Q. Then you knew that he had not been tried?

    21 A. Yes. I don't know whether he was sentenced,

    22 but I don't know that he got out quickly. I don't know

    23 how or why.

    24 Q. Do you not know who gave the order releasing

    25 him from prison?

  136. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. Do you know what Miroslav Bralo did after he

    3 was released from prison?

    4 A. I know that he joined the Vitezovi, I think,

    5 because I saw him armed later on.

    6 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have another

    7 question, and then I think I will have finished.

    8 Q. You stated, sir, that Counsellor Glumac

    9 submitted a number of reports to this Tribunal, reports

    10 of investigations, and these reports were described or

    11 stamped "Military Secret" and were carried out in the

    12 course of investigation. I'd like to know whether or

    13 not, to your knowledge, there exists a report of this

    14 type on the events which took place on the 16th of

    15 April, 1993, in Ahmici.

    16 A. I don't know of the existence of any report.

    17 Q. You, as a policeman, and as a specialist in

    18 criminal investigations, were you not interested in

    19 what had occurred in Ahmici?

    20 A. The war was on then, and at first I didn't

    21 even know what had happened in Ahmici. And perhaps

    22 only three or four days later, I heard that the U.N.

    23 found some persons who had burned down in a house. And

    24 this -- this shook me. I mean, how could these people

    25 have burned? And some ten days or so later, there was

  137. 1 some kind of an exchange, and I heard that in Ahmici

    2 they found 50 or 60 victims and there would be an

    3 exchange. But before that, I didn't know anything

    4 about it.

    5 Q. And Ahmici was in your precinct, was it not?

    6 So you would have been in charge of carrying out an

    7 investigation. If you were sent to carry out an

    8 investigation about Mr. Pavelic's grass, then a crime

    9 in Ahmici would have been within your scope of

    10 responsibility, would it have not?

    11 A. The war started on the 16th, and then it was

    12 impossible to go out into the field and carry out

    13 investigations. There were frontlines, people went to

    14 defence lines, and we practically stopped operating as

    15 a crime investigations police. I only worked as a

    16 criminology technician in terms of identifying the

    17 corpses that were found in town; and also if there was

    18 a burglary or something, then I would interview people

    19 to see what was going on. But in the surrounding

    20 villages, where the lines were, that is where we

    21 couldn't go.

    22 Q. In your opinion as a technician, as a

    23 criminal technician, does a war involve the murder of

    24 128 civilian women and children? Is that truly war?

    25 JUDGE MAY: I don't think that's a matter for

  138. 1 the witness.

    2 MR. TERRIER: Withdraw the question,

    3 Mr. President. No further questions, Mr. President.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

    5 Ms. Glumac, it's now half past 4.00; are you

    6 going to be many minutes in reexamination?

    7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No, I'll be short.

    8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel,

    9 please.

    10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, how much

    11 time do we have? 15 minutes? Would that be all

    12 right?

    13 JUDGE MAY: Well, I'll ask the interpreters.

    14 Are they all right for another quarter of an hour? I

    15 think everybody else is.

    16 THE INTERPRETERS: Yes, Mr. President.

    17 JUDGE MAY: They say yes. But no more.

    18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Okay. Thank you.

    19 Re-examination by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    20 Q. Mr. Strukar, could you please tell the Court,

    21 is there a place for a photograph in your employment

    22 booklet?

    23 A. As far as I can remember the employment

    24 booklet, no, there was no place for a photograph.

    25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I would like to ask the

  139. 1 usher to show this employment book to the witness and

    2 to the Court and to the Prosecutor.

    3 Q. This is the originals, and you tell me

    4 whether that was the book that was photocopied, and

    5 tell me whether the data entered in this book are the

    6 data on the basis of which you obtained your pension,

    7 on the basis of which you retired, and whether the data

    8 also have a registry number, and whether they can be

    9 checked.

    10 A. Yes, this is the original. Yes, I know by

    11 the stamp and by the handwriting up there.

    12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could the usher please

    13 show this to the Trial Chamber. This is the original.

    14 And also to the Prosecutor, please.

    15 If the Prosecutor is contesting the

    16 authenticity of this document, we can also find the

    17 document on the basis of which all these entries were

    18 made, if that is the case. I think that the Prosecutor

    19 can object if they don't want this to be admitted into

    20 evidence, or if he contests it in any way.

    21 JUDGE MAY: I don't expect there is any

    22 dispute about this.

    23 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, we have not made

    24 an objection to this.


  140. 1 Q. In response to the Prosecutor's question, to

    2 Mr. Terrier's question, you said that Pero Skopljak was

    3 appointed in a way as a political person; not as a

    4 professional in the force, but as a person who was

    5 involved in political work?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And this post of chief of police, in the

    8 previous system, was it always a political post?

    9 A. It was a political post, and it was -- and

    10 also this other post of commander was always a

    11 political post too. And there was only one term of

    12 office, I think, of two years or four years, I'm not

    13 sure, and then the structure would change again.

    14 Sometimes it would be a Muslim, sometimes it would be a

    15 Croat, depending on ethnicity.

    16 Q. In view of the fact that this was after the

    17 elections, do you know whether Pero Skopljak was

    18 appointed by consensus between the HDZ and the SDA?

    19 That is to say whether he was accepted both by the

    20 Croats and the Muslims?

    21 A. Yes, yes.

    22 Q. Also could you please tell me -- tell the

    23 Court, this other post of the commander of the police,

    24 and you said that that was second in importance, was

    25 that post also one that could be obtained only by

  141. 1 consensus? That is to say, did they have to reach

    2 agreement on that too?

    3 A. Yes, agreement had to be reached on that

    4 point too, and the commander also was not a

    5 professional in that sense.

    6 Q. Also the Prosecutor asked you about the

    7 attack on the police station in June 1992, and you said

    8 that you did not remember. However, do you remember

    9 whether in June and all the way up to October policemen

    10 of Muslim ethnic background worked at the police

    11 station in Vitez?

    12 A. Yes, yes. They worked together.

    13 Q. Were there any interruptions in their work

    14 before the 19th of October, 1992, when the Muslim

    15 policemen definitely left?

    16 A. As far as I know, no. No, no, there were no

    17 interruptions.

    18 Q. Also I would like to ask you to tell the

    19 Court about the request that was put forth that Pero

    20 Skopljak and his deputy, I think Saban Mahmutovic; is

    21 that right?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. That they should both leave the police

    24 station. Was this the joint agreement reached by the

    25 Croats and the Muslims?

  142. 1 A. Yes, yes. The Muslims put forth the

    2 following condition, that Pero Skopljak should resign,

    3 and the Croats said that Commander Saban Mahmutovic

    4 should resign, and they were from these political

    5 parties of theirs, and they were the most responsible

    6 for their behaviour in town, and Pero Skopljak did

    7 resign, whereas Saban would not.

    8 Q. Did anybody from the civilian authorities or

    9 from your immediate superiors in the police, did any

    10 one of these persons ever tell you not to do your work,

    11 not to carry out investigations, not to receive

    12 reports, not to perform regular police duties?

    13 A. No, no. No one ever ordered that nor did

    14 anyone ever say that or anything. We worked as much as

    15 we could, it was difficult for us, but we did whatever

    16 we could. We gathered evidence.

    17 Q. In your work, did you have a different

    18 treatment towards a situation when the victim was a

    19 Croat and different when the victim was a Muslim? Did

    20 you make any distinction between the two?

    21 A. As far as I know, we made no distinctions.

    22 We would always go out to investigate, to collect

    23 evidence and information and so on.

    24 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you whether you

    25 know anything connected to the circumstances of

  143. 1 Miroslav Bralo, Cicko's, release from prison. You said

    2 you didn't.

    3 A. I don't know who let him out or why. I know

    4 that I heard it bandied about town, that they said

    5 Cicko's free and that he was in a unit of some kind,

    6 that he joined some kind of military unit, I think the

    7 Vitezovi, but I'm not sure, because our hands were

    8 tied.

    9 Q. Tell us another thing, please, and that's the

    10 last question in connection with the events in Ahmici,

    11 whether the civilian police could, in any way

    12 whatsoever, conduct an investigation?

    13 A. At that time, it could not because it was

    14 under the domain of the army, the line was there, and

    15 it had no competencies whatsoever.

    16 Q. Who did have the competence in case of an

    17 investigation being conducted? Who could have carried

    18 out this investigation? Could this have been done by

    19 the civilian police?

    20 A. No. I think it was only the military police

    21 who could have done that because they were uniformed

    22 individuals, and so it was only the military police who

    23 could have conducted an investigation of this kind. We

    24 could not.

    25 Q. Do you know whether the military police did

  144. 1 launch an investigation of any kind or whether a

    2 request was made to ascertain what had, in fact,

    3 happened in Ahmici?

    4 A. I'm not aware of that, no.

    5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you very much. I

    6 have no further questions. Thank you, Your Honours.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Thank you for coming,

    8 Mr. Strukar. You are released now.

    9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    10 (The witness withdrew)

    11 JUDGE MAY: Unless there are any other

    12 matters, we will adjourn now until Monday morning at

    13 9.00.

    14 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    15 4.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

    16 the 15th day of February, 1999, at

    17 9.00 a.m.