1 Tuesday, 16th February, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours,
6 IT-95-16-T, The Prosector versus Zoran Kupreskic,
7 Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic,
8 Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
10 Counsel Puliselic.
11 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I forgot
12 yesterday to tender exhibits into evidence from numbers
13 D4/5 to D10/5, please.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume there is no
15 objection. They are admitted into evidence. Thank
16 you, Counsel Puliselic. And I will call upon Counsel
18 MR. PAR: Thank you, good morning Your
20 WITNESS: IVO VIDOVIC (Resumed)
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vidovic.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. Mr. Vidovic, I have several questions for you
25 linked to the accused Vlatko Kupreskic. Let me begin
1 with the 16th of April, 1993. During your testimony
2 yesterday you said that on the 16th of April, 1993, in
3 the morning, you heard gunfire and headed with your
4 family to the shelter?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Will you tell me what time it was when you
7 left your house?
8 A. It was about quarter to 6.00 or 6.00. I
9 can't recall exactly, but about that time, quarter to
11 Q. Tell me, please, how far is this shelter from
12 your home?
13 A. It is about 200 metres away.
14 Q. Can you tell us, then, when you reached the
15 shelter, what time it was?
16 A. It was about five to 6.00 or 6.00, something
17 like that.
18 Q. Will you tell us now how much time you spent
19 in the shelter, that is how long you stayed there until
20 what time?
21 A. I stayed until -- I stayed about ten to
22 twenty minutes.
23 Q. Who did you find in the shelter when you
24 reached it? Was it empty or were there people there
1 A. It was almost full, but people were still
2 arriving, people who started fleeing later on.
3 Q. Were those people women, children, elderly
4 people, and people not fit for military service?
5 A. Yes, mostly. Mostly civilians.
6 Q. Do you know Vlatko Kupreskic and the members
7 of his family?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you see any members of Vlatko Kupreskic's
10 family in the shelter, and if you did, please tell us
12 A. Yes. When I got there to put my family in a
13 safe place, I saw Vlatko Kupreskic, his wife and
14 children, his mother. I saw two of his uncles. Among
15 the many other people, they were there.
16 Q. Once more, will you tell us what time it was
17 when you saw them?
18 A. It was about 6.00.
19 Q. You said that you saw Vlatko Kupreskic.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you describe what he looked like or,
22 rather, how he was dressed? Was he wearing civilian
23 clothes, a uniform, was he armed?
24 A. He was in civilian clothes and he was
25 unarmed. He was not armed.
1 Q. Were you surprised to find Vlatko Kupreskic
2 in a shelter for people unfit for military service?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Can you explain that?
5 A. Yes. Actually, I knew that Vlatko was unfit
6 for military service. I know that he had some kind of
7 heart surgery, and I know that he could not serve in
8 the former JNA.
9 Q. Did you ever see him in uniform or carrying
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you, perhaps, know whether Vlatko acted
13 politically ever or spoke in public?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know what Vlatko engaged in at the
17 A. In commerce. He had a big wholesale store.
18 Q. Did you get your supplies from him?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know, at the time did Vlatko give his
21 customers goods on credit?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did he make any distinction between Croat and
24 Muslim customers or, rather, did he give Muslims goods
25 on the same terms?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. PAR: Your Honours, I should like for a
3 moment the sound to be switched off so that we can go
4 into private session, as I may be mentioning some
5 names. Just for a few minutes.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
7 (Private session)
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12 (Open session)
13 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you.
14 Q. What is the name of your establishment, sir?
15 A. Cafe Victoria.
16 Q. And I believe that is located close to
17 another cafe about 40 metres away called the -- known
18 popularly as Pican (pronounced phonetically) cafe, that
19 is correct?
20 A. Not Pican (pronounced phonetically), Pican.
21 Q. I'm sorry.
22 A. Forty metres, yes. It is on the main road.
23 Q. And did that cafe also enjoy a similar
24 clientele to yours?
25 A. I didn't go there a lot but roughly, yes.
1 Q. Now, you said that earlier in 1992 you
2 volunteered to fight at the frontlines, and you and
3 your son did so for four to five days; is that right?
4 A. Yes. That was once early in 1992. We went
5 as there were -- there wasn't much choice, and we
6 reported as volunteers to go there for the first time.
7 Q. Did that volunteering, in fact, make you at
8 that time a member of the HVO forces? Did they induct
9 you into the HVO forces for doing that duty?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you receive any issue of weapons, or
12 pieces of uniform or equipment when you reached the
14 A. On the front, yes. On the frontlines, yes.
15 Q. When you left the frontlines to return home
16 were you able to keep any of the equipment you were
17 given or the clothing?
18 A. No. I didn't have equipment, I was just
19 given a rifle, and when I went back I left that rifle.
20 Q. You then formed the village guards in your
21 own community with others. When did you first form the
22 village guard?
23 A. I can't remember exactly. I know it was
24 early in '92, so I'm unable to recall the exact date.
25 Q. Was that an initiative by Mr. Nenad Santic
1 who became its sort of overall commander, or was that
2 just a getting together of local people?
3 A. Well, let me tell you. We had a meeting
4 together, us and the Muslims, and we heard that some
5 terrorists had entered a village near Turbe, so all of
6 us together agreed to organise these village guards and
7 to keep watch duty at night so that the same thing
8 wouldn't happen in our surroundings.
9 Q. How many people joined your village guard
10 from the Croat side?
11 A. There were about 30 to 40 of us. These were
12 mostly elderly men. There were few young people there
13 among them.
14 Q. I'll just ask you, were, in fact, Dragan
15 Papic or Drago Josipovic members of the village guard?
16 A. Drago Josipovic, yes. Dragan Papic was
17 further away from us. He wasn't near our village, so
18 he wasn't a member of our village guards.
19 Q. Did you structure those guards at that time
20 as to two separate ethnic guards, one made up of Croat
21 persons and the other made up of Muslim persons?
22 A. No. We kept duty together. We were equal.
23 We were like one in those days.
24 Q. How many people would form a guard on a given
25 night in a particular patrol? How many would you go
1 out with?
2 A. Every night. There would be ten men on duty
3 and they would be there all night, and we took turns.
4 Q. By "all night," between which hours did you
5 actually serve that duty? When did you start, when did
6 you finish?
7 A. We would start in the evening at nightfall
8 and we'd go home when it dawned.
9 Q. Would this be a mobile patrolling of the
10 village, going round as a group, or did you station
11 yourself in a particular place and just remain there
12 for a period of time, like a checkpoint sort of thing?
13 A. We had a house where we stayed, all of us
14 together, and then three men would patrol the area,
15 then another three would go round and that is how we
16 took turns.
17 Q. And what roughly was the territorial area?
18 Perhaps, in fact, I could resort to the exhibit already
19 on the ELMO, with your leave. Could you look at that
20 map on the machine next to you and could you indicate
21 roughly the area that your guard covered with its
23 A. Yes. Would you like me to mark the circle?
24 Q. I wouldn't say necessarily you have to mark
25 it, it's not my exhibit to be marked, but just -- would
1 you just point with your finger or the pointer if you
2 have it there, please, but don't actually mark on the
3 document. Thank you.
4 A. On this side of the road were half Muslims
5 and half Croats, and then we covered this area, from
6 here, then we would go along this path almost as far as
7 Radak's bridge, then we would turn back and come round
8 here as far as the shelter. So that would be the
9 circle that we made. There's the sports centre, this
10 group of houses. In other villages there were other
12 Q. Thank you. And as regards the -- that time,
13 earlier in 1992, it was a mixed guard of Muslims and
14 Croats who would carry out this duty?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And at that time when it was still a mixed
17 unit, was Nenad Santic effectively your superior to
18 whom you reported?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And how often did you communicate at that
21 time with Mr. Nenad Santic?
22 A. Frequently, because his house was nearby and
23 he would keep watch with us.
24 Q. Do you know whether there was any liaison
25 between Mr. Nenad Santic and anywhere else, any other
1 areas, any other guards, any other military?
2 A. I didn't have access to any such information,
3 so I don't know.
4 Q. Were you armed in these patrols?
5 A. Yes. Some people had permits for pistols or
6 hunting rifles, those of us who were huntsmen but we
7 didn't all have weapons. Then some people would carry
8 a pole, another one a rifle and that is how it was.
9 Q. As for yourself, sir, did you have a sporting
10 gun, or a pistol or a hunting rifle?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So did you, in fact, borrow any kind of
13 weapon from somebody, or did you carry a pole or
14 something like that?
15 A. I had a neighbour, his name was Marko Santic,
16 he was a hunter and he would regularly give me his
18 Q. Now, did you acquire any form of uniform in
19 order to carry out these guard duties, like a
20 camouflage jacket or anything like that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, you say that later on the Muslim
23 residents formed a separate guard; is that right?
24 A. The separation started immediately after the
25 first conflict in Ahmici, that is, after the
1 elections. As soon as the nationalist structures were
2 formed people started separating.
3 Q. I believe you commented earlier that
4 virtually everybody took a kind of ethnic standpoint at
5 that point in time.
6 A. I didn't quite understand the question.
7 Q. When you said that the separation came about,
8 I recall you saying that everybody had to take a kind
9 of ethnic stance after those elections. In other
10 words, to lie with their own ethnic group; is that
12 A. I didn't say that they had to, but I said
13 that everyone started to align themselves with their
14 own parties. There was the SDA, the HDZ, the SDS and
15 in the smaller places and settlements people started
16 separating along those lines.
17 Q. In fact, as you say, a local Muslim guard was
18 formed, and was that, in fact, formed out of the local
19 TO people who had been there before?
20 A. No. The guards were formed on the basis of
21 the SDA party.
22 Q. I believe you said a Mr. Mehmed Ahmic was the
23 commander of that village guard; is that correct?
24 A. I don't know whether he was commander of the
25 village guard, but he was the most important person in
1 Ahmici. He had the main say. He was the leading
2 politician in that area.
3 Q. You became aware, I presume, in mid 1992 of
4 the creation and existence of the HVO, the Croatian
5 Defence Council; is that right?
6 A. I was not aware of it until the beginning of
7 the conflict, that the HVO had been formed, though I
8 would see people in uniform now and then. We were far
9 away. We were not in Vitez. We were rather remote.
10 So I didn't see any of those units.
11 Q. Well, we've heard that during the latter part
12 of 1992 and in early 1993, there was quite a build-up
13 of people who would be wearing uniforms around the
14 place. Would you agree with that?
15 A. Well, yes.
16 Q. And I believe, obviously, in your cafe and
17 the nearby establishment, presumably a number of your
18 customers started to be wearing various uniforms as
19 well, is that not so?
20 A. All those young men who were wearing
21 uniforms, they went to the frontline. Rarely did they
22 have time to visit cafes.
23 Q. Anyway, to get back to the village guard
24 situation --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- do you recall in mid to late 1992 Nenad
2 Santic wore a uniform when he worked with you or you
3 had dealings with him?
4 A. Well, let me see. Several young men had
5 camouflage jackets or jeans. This was customary. They
6 got hold of them somehow. But I can't remember
7 precisely whether I saw Nenad Santic in a uniform.
8 Someone would get a jacket, someone else trousers, but
9 this was something that we could not get hold of.
10 Q. Now, in October -- on the 20th of October,
11 1992, you said there was an outbreak of conflict when
12 the roadblock put up by the Muslims was forcibly
13 removed by the HVO. Do you recall that day, sir?
14 A. I said that a conflict occurred when units
15 from Kiseljak and Busovaca were heading for the defence
16 of Jajce. I didn't say whether the roadblock was
17 removed. That is something that I did not say. Maybe
18 you misunderstood me. I didn't say whether they were
19 removed or not. I didn't know that.
20 Q. So will we agree that it was all to do with a
21 checkpoint that was set up by the Muslims that
22 apparently this conflict occurred; is that right?
23 A. Well, the conflict occurred because they
24 wouldn't allow those units to pass towards Jajce.
25 Q. Where were you on the morning of the 20th of
1 October, 1992? Were you at your business?
2 A. Yes, I was in my shop.
3 Q. Did you remain there for the whole of the
5 A. Yes, all morning, and I heard from local
6 people that this conflict had occurred. People dropped
7 in and they told me about it.
8 Q. Were any of the people who dropped in people
9 in uniform?
10 A. No.
11 Q. When in the day did you first learn that this
12 thing had taken place?
13 A. Immediately afterwards when the shooting
14 started. We all wondered what it was. Then the Croats
15 who were there in Ahmici, when the shooting started
16 they fled, those that were unarmed, and that is how we
17 learn that the conflict had occurred.
18 Q. Now, as a member of the village guard, did
19 you think of taking any particular action to go out and
20 check the situation for yourself?
21 A. No, because I didn't have access to this. I
22 didn't have the weapons, nor did anyone force me to do
23 that, nor did I feel the need to do anything. I didn't
24 really know what the factual state was, why it had
25 occurred. It was only later on that I learnt that
1 these units wanted to go to Jajce and that a conflict
2 had broken out.
3 Q. Did you have any means of communication with
4 Mr. Nenad Santic at that time? Could you have
5 telephoned, or did you have a portable phone or
7 A. I had a telephone, but I didn't communicate
8 by telephone. Very often the lines were down. They
9 were probably digging, so that there was damage to the
10 telephone lines.
11 Q. Well, you said that you had constantly feared
12 the incursion of terrorists, particularly by night, and
13 that's why you formed the village guards?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. Did any thoughts of this being some form of
16 terrorist incursion first occur to you when you heard
17 the shooting and before you were told what was going
19 A. Yes. Yes. When the conflict occurred, the
20 first one in Ahmici, as we were close with the Muslims
21 -- in fact we had tied our flags together -- I thought
22 it was a Serb attack. I never thought that there was a
23 conflict between the Muslims and Croats.
24 Q. And yet you are saying that you did not take
25 any steps to contact your fellow village guard members
1 or Mr. Santic at that point?
2 A. No, we didn't go anywhere. Nenad Santic was
3 working at the gas station. He wasn't home during the
4 day. He was working in Vitez, at the petrol station.
5 Q. Now, after the 20th of October, did you hear
6 anything about the surrender of weapons by Muslim
7 residents in the area? Surrender of weapons to the
9 A. No.
10 Q. During that period, from October through, let
11 us say now, to January of 1993, were terrorist
12 incursions the only concerns that you had that prompted
13 carrying on with the village guards? Or were there
14 other problems?
15 A. There were other problems, because the guards
16 became separate, and we never knew from which quarter
17 danger could come.
18 Q. During that period, what was the situation as
19 regards the local crime rate? Was there an increase in
20 crimes against people or against property?
21 A. As far as I know, there wasn't, at least in
22 my immediate surroundings.
23 Q. I appreciate that you weren't in Vitez, but
24 Vitez is not a very long way away. Did you hear
25 anything about the events in Vitez at that time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was it true that --
3 A. I heard that there might be a burglary into a
4 store; things like that. There were plenty of such
6 Q. Did you ever hear about young men getting
7 into uniform and forming sort of independent kind of
8 units and going around town rampaging and committing
9 crime in town, in Vitez? Did you ever hear anything
10 about that?
11 A. No, I didn't. Because this was something
12 that didn't reach us, especially the older people. We
13 wouldn't hear such things.
14 Q. But this, you say, wasn't happening in your
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you know the nearby village -- I hope I
18 pronounce it correctly -- of Nadioci?
19 A. It's quite far from me, but I do know it,
21 Q. And were you aware of, I believe, a
22 restaurant there at one time called the Bungalow?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you ever hear anything later, in, say,
25 early 1993, about a military HVO unit or police unit
1 being based at the Bungalow? Let's say around
2 February '93.
3 A. Well, you see, as there was the Muslim
4 checkpoint near the cemetery, people -- civilians
5 couldn't pass by. And I personally had not heard about
6 such a unit.
7 Q. So if I were to just give you the name "the
8 Jokers," I believe in the language is "Jokeri," would
9 that name ring any kind of bell with you?
10 A. For me, no.
11 Q. Now, you're saying, sir, that therefore in
12 early 1993, civilian movement was severely restricted
13 because of this checkpoint; is that right?
14 A. Yes. Not just at one spot; there were these
15 checkpoints everywhere, so that it was very difficult
16 to move around, especially for civilians.
17 Q. Is it true to say that some of those
18 checkpoints were manned by Muslim people in military
19 dress and some by Croat people in military dress?
20 There were different checkpoints?
21 A. Let me tell you, my route was Karlo Vrebac,
22 who had a wholesale store, and Vlatko Kupreskic also,
23 and those were the places I visited, plus guard duty in
24 Zume. So I didn't move further than that. I heard
25 that there were checkpoints everywhere. In the Muslim
1 villages they were controlled by Muslims, and so on.
2 There were these checkpoints everywhere, so I heard.
3 Q. By that time, you presumably were familiar
4 with the expression of the HVO, or the Croatian Defence
5 Council, by February or March of 1993?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, were you aware of the existence of any
8 BiH army units in the village of Ahmici, let us say in
9 March of 1993? Any units stationed there or quartered
11 A. Yes. As there was a large number of
12 displaced persons from Jajce, from Karaula, and so on,
13 it became -- life became very difficult. There were
14 provocations. When these persons arrived, they
15 constituted a large majority. So there were all kinds
16 of things.
17 Q. But with respect the question I asked you was
18 were you aware of any formal Bosnian army BiH units
19 that were stationed in and around Ahmici -- not
20 refugees -- of Muslim ethnicity.
21 A. Well, yes. All those refugees immediately
22 joined in the defence and the BH Army.
23 Q. Now, let us move on, if I may, to the 15th of
24 April, the day before, I understand, the big conflict
25 in Ahmici.
1 Can you tell me what time you started work
2 that morning?
3 A. Well, I usually opened at 9 or 10 a.m. Never
4 early in the morning.
5 Q. And how long that day did you stay open to do
7 A. Until midnight.
8 Q. You say you closed at midnight; did you at
9 any time perform any village guard duty during that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And between which hours did you do that?
13 A. I didn't -- I wasn't -- there were others,
14 because it wasn't my turn to keep guard duty. It
15 was -- the guard was held that evening as usual.
16 Q. I see. Yes, the question I should have
17 expressed more clearly to you, sir, was did you
18 yourself go out on village guard duty at all that
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, you therefore had, did you, a normal day
22 and evening of trading?
23 A. Well, I did my everyday tasks, my usual
25 Q. Did you have many customers in your
1 establishment during the course of that evening?
2 A. Well, so-so. I never had very many. The
3 customers would come and go. It's a rural area; there
4 were never many customers.
5 Q. Can you recall the mood of your customers
6 that evening? Was it any different to other evenings?
7 Was there any particular anxiety or concern amongst
8 your customers?
9 A. No, they talked only about Zivko Totic, who
10 had been taken prisoner, and the killing of his
11 companions. That's what was discussed. Everything
12 else was as usual.
13 Q. So at what time did you finally go to sleep
14 that night?
15 A. Well, I worked until midnight, and as soon as
16 I came home, I went to bed at once.
17 Q. Would it be true to say that when you went to
18 bed that night, you appear not to have been concerned
19 that there was any kind of potential violence about to
20 break out in your vicinity?
21 A. No.
22 Q. It's true to say, is it, that there was no
23 prior indication to you as a resident of Zume, or the
24 people in your area, that there was an impending attack
25 by the army of BiH, or anyone else? Is that right?
1 A. No one knew about it. None of us knew about
2 something like that or expected something like that to
4 Q. Had you seen any activity of armed forces
5 people, HVO or ABiH, during the day of the 15th of
6 April? Did you see any troop movements or vehicles or
7 artillery, or anything like that?
8 A. No, I was a little way away from the main
9 road, and you usually hear vehicles passing by. But
10 that was usual; I didn't pay attention to the kind of
11 vehicles passing along the road.
12 Q. Now, you say you awoke at about 05.30 in the
13 morning to the sound of gunfire; is that right, sir?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You then -- we have heard the timing, and
16 what you then did with your family, going to the
17 shelter and so forth. But it seems it was probably
18 therefore about 10 past 6 outside the shelter that you
19 met Mr. Nenad Santic; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what was Mr. Nenad Santic wearing when
22 you encountered him near the shelter?
23 A. He was wearing some kind of camouflage jacket
24 and civilian trousers. And he met me and he talked in
25 a hurried way. He said, "Leave your wife and children
1 immediately and go to guard the bridge, Radak's
3 Q. Did he give you any reason for guarding that
4 bridge? Did he say why he specifically wanted that
5 bridge guarded?
6 A. Yes, he told me, "Ivo, there has been a
7 conflict between the Muslims and the Croats, and the
8 main road, the Busovaca/Vitez road, has been blocked
9 off at Ljuba's houses. There's no way through, so we
10 have to guard this bridge. Nothing must happen there
11 under any conditions. Go and guard that bridge. You
12 will find Drago Vidovic and Dragan Papic there."
13 Q. He didn't go into any other kind of details
14 as to what specific forces or persons were involved in
15 this action?
16 A. No, he didn't say anything. This is all he
17 told me.
18 Q. In order to guard the bridge, did you do
19 anything about trying to obtain a weapon or something?
20 A. Yes, Nenad Santic brought us two M-48
21 rifles. That's what we had at the bridge.
22 Q. You say he brought them; in other words, did
23 he come later and bring them to you at the bridge?
24 A. Yes. Yes, when we arrived there, he came
25 some 15 minutes later and brought us these two M-48
1 rifles, and he issued orders that no one was to move
2 away from the bridge. So that we were not allowed to
3 leave the bridge. We could move between Radak's bridge
4 and the house where we rested, some 50 metres up and
6 Q. Now, could you state to me again, sir,
7 please, from that point when you were assigned to the
8 bridge, who exactly was with you at that point when you
10 A. When I arrived at Radak's bridge, I found
11 Drago Vidovic there. And Dragan Papic wasn't there
12 immediately, only about 10 minutes later, Dragan Papic
13 arrived from the direction of Donja Rovna. We were
14 surprised to see him coming from that direction and
15 asked him why, and he said he had been taking his
16 mother, his wife, and his sister to the shelter there.
17 And then he joined us there, and we remained there at
18 the bridge.
19 Q. So there were now in fact three of you at the
20 bridge; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did Mr. Papic bring a weapon with him?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did Mr. Papic say he'd been instructed to
25 come and guard the bridge?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You were aware, sir, that Mr. Papic, as a
3 forester, did possess a weapon, a hunting rifle with a
5 A. I didn't know that. I know that as a
6 forester, he had a rifle; but whether it was his or
7 whether it belonged to the forestry company, I didn't
9 Q. But you say you've never seen him carrying it
10 in town?
11 A. Well, people didn't carry rifles around the
12 town then. He usually went toward the forests.
13 Q. But isn't it true that in the months just
14 before April, 1993 there were more people around in
15 uniform and there were people seen carrying guns in and
16 around your area; is that not so?
17 A. Well, I was there and I didn't really have
18 much opportunity to see these people. There may have
19 been such people or not, I don't know.
20 Q. So the three of you were at that bridge on
21 the 16th of April, and you just had the two rifles
22 between you, correct?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. How many of you stayed on duty at one point
25 and how many took rest during that day; was it two on
1 and one off or one on and two off?
2 A. It was usually two who kept guard and one who
4 Q. How long would the rest period be?
5 A. Well, it was not limited. If anyone felt
6 tired, they would go and take a rest.
7 Q. So essentially the guard duty on the bridge
8 was conducted as a two man exercise, two on duty, one
9 guy would take a rest?
10 A. Yes, there was a house there where we could
11 rest and when someone got tired we would wake up the
12 one who was resting and then the -- they would change.
13 Q. Was any provision made in the course of that
14 day, the 15th -- I'm so sorry, the 16th, was there
15 anything done in the course of that day to arrange for
16 some relief for you people; in other words, some
17 replacements or others to join you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you given supplies of food and
21 A. We had stocks of food because the woman in
22 the house cooked for us.
23 Q. And ammunition, were you supplied with some?
24 A. We had a few packets of ammunition for the
25 M48 rifle.
1 Q. Now, we have seen the location of that house,
2 and when one of you went off to rest there, would the
3 other two then just walk up and down on the river bank
4 as you indicated on the photographs?
5 A. Yes. We would go 50 metres in one direction,
6 50 in the other, and around the house and the bridge.
7 Q. What was the name, if I may ask, of the lady
8 at the house who cooked for you?
9 A. The woman was the wife of a man called
10 Ljubas. I don't know her name.
11 Q. Thank you. You say that you'd had,
12 obviously, orders to stay at the bridge and guard it,
13 but --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- were you told how long you would have to
16 remain there on that first day? Did they say how long
17 they thought you would have to stay and guard?
18 A. Nothing was told us, only that we had to keep
19 the bridge secure and that we were not to leave it.
20 Q. At that time, to the best of your knowledge,
21 sir, I suppose your family was still in the shelter and
22 your business was obviously unattended because the
23 conflict had broken out. Yes?
24 A. Yes. The building was locked up and no one
25 was there either in my house or my business premises.
1 Q. Did you have any concerns that you would have
2 liked to have gone back to your house just to check
3 later in the day that it was all right?
4 A. No. No. Nenad Santic would visit us quite
5 often and he told me that my family was in the shelter
6 and that there was nothing for me to worry about.
7 Q. I believe you said yesterday that in your
8 case you stayed there until August guarding the bridge?
9 A. Yes, I stayed there at the bridge until the
10 24th of August.
11 Q. All right. But during that period were you
12 given any opportunities to go back to your business, to
13 see your family, to check on your home?
14 A. No, I never left the bridge. A few times at
15 night my wife would come to see me and tell me that
16 everything was all right, but I did not have approval
17 to go home and I could not go home. And that's why I
18 fell ill. I suddenly fell ill. I vomited blood and I
19 had to go for treatment.
20 Q. Now, sir, if I can go back to that first
21 day. You worked through the 16th of April and you say
22 you arrived somewhere around 7 -- between 6.30 and
23 7.00, you feel, at the Radak bridge; is that so?
24 A. I worked on the 15th, not on the 16th.
25 Q. I'm sorry, I probably misled you in the way I
1 put the question. I'll do it again, sir. On the day,
2 the 16th, you arrived at the bridge at about 6.30 to
3 7.00, that I believe is what you said.
4 A. Yes, I said that I arrived at Radak's bridge
5 at about 20 past 6.00 or half past 6.00, somewhere
6 around that time. I couldn't be very precise.
7 Q. Presumably, between the three of you, you
8 kept guard duty going right through the night, 24 hours
9 night and day? Yes?
10 A. Yes, that's correct. Because I already said
11 that one always rested while two kept watch.
12 Q. Were you on the second day, say the 17th or
13 were you on the 18th joined by any others to swell your
14 numbers beyond the three?
15 A. Yes, there were some others keeping watch on
16 the other side of the bridge. Those were from the
17 Busovaca municipality.
18 Q. But with regard to your own side of the
19 bridge, did any additions or replacements come in, say,
20 the two or three days following the 16th?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did Mr. Dragan Papic express any concerns to
23 you regarding his domestic situation at home; his wife
24 was heavily pregnant, there had been fighting going on
25 in Ahmici? Was he worried?
1 A. Yes, he was worried. He told me that his
2 wife was heavily pregnant, but that he had taken her to
3 a safe place, to the shelter in Rovna, and there were
4 no problems there.
5 Q. When Mr. Nenad Santic paid visits to you, did
6 he speak to Dragan Papic? Did he relay family messages
7 or, you know, report to him as he did to you?
8 A. No. His family was in the Busovaca
9 municipality and Nenad Santic didn't go to the Busovaca
11 Q. Do you recall whether Mr. Dragan Papic left
12 the location at any time during, say, the three days
13 through the 16th, 17th or 18th of April?
14 A. I know that he didn't. No one was allowed to
15 leave that guard post.
16 Q. Even though one may have orders, it is
17 sometimes possible people disobey them. I am just
18 asking whether at any time Mr. Papic may have left?
19 A. It's not possible, and we are certain that no
20 one left the guard post.
21 Q. You said you were taking a rest period in the
22 lady's house, and the other two were guarding the
23 bridge, and if those two started to walk down the river
24 bank, would it be possible to leave that house and go
25 back down the road towards Zume without being seen by
1 your colleagues? I am just saying would that have been
2 possible at that site?
3 A. No, it wasn't possible, because we moved only
4 within a circumference of 50 metres, and the house is
5 less than 20 metres away from the bridge.
6 Q. But, clearly, there were periods of time when
7 any one of you was out of the sight of the other, if
8 only to be inside that house?
9 A. We were always able to see him. He couldn't
10 have left the house, except through the garage door,
11 and it was always within our sight. And if he had
12 left, how could he have -- he wouldn't have been able
13 to come back.
14 Q. Can you recall the day when Mr. Papic was
15 ordered, you know, to leave that duty?
16 A. He wasn't ordered, but I remember he stayed
17 with us eight to ten days and then he told us that his
18 wife was either having a baby or had had the baby, I'm
19 not sure exactly which, and then he went home and they
20 never saw him again until after the war.
21 Q. Well, let me get this clear. Had you
22 received any message or had there been a visit by Nenad
23 Santic or anybody to say that Mr. Papic could go home?
24 A. Well, yes, Nenad Santic came, and he told him
25 he could go home, and then he left. And the two of us
1 stayed there alone, on our own.
2 Q. From that time forward you say it reduced to
3 the two of you, yourself and Mr. Drago Vidovic --
4 Dragan Vidovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did he remain, indeed, until August along
7 with you?
8 A. Yes, he stayed after I left, when I went for
9 treatment, and I don't know whether he was joined by
10 anyone else after I left. I don't know.
11 Q. You said that Mr. Dragan Papic was a regular
12 visitor to your establishment; is that so?
13 A. Yes, before the war.
14 Q. So, to that extent, as a customer you knew
15 him quite well?
16 A. Yes, since he worked as a forester, he would
17 go to his job and he would always drop in.
18 Q. We have heard that some witnesses have
19 indicated that in the course of his work Mr. Papic was
20 often seen in a camouflage kind of kit or a very dark
21 uniform type of kit, even black, as quite regular
22 clothing in the months before the conflict. Do you
23 recall him being dressed in that way?
24 A. Well, as far as I know, until the conflict
25 broke out, Dragan Papic was employed in the forestry
1 and he always wore a camouflage jacket and a green
3 Q. How green was that? Was it a light green or
4 very dark or mid-green?
5 A. Well, maybe like this colour here
6 (indicating). It's a forestry uniform, it's green.
7 Every forester wore a green uniform.
8 Q. A bit like the microphone button, that kind
9 of green? You pointed to that.
10 A. Yes. Yes. It was that kind of colour. For
11 example, like these headphones here, or like this
12 canvas. I can't explain it clearly, but it was always
13 a green uniform for foresters.
14 Q. You say that on the frequent visits he was
15 going to and from the forest you don't recall Mr. Papic
16 carrying his weapon with him?
17 A. Yes, he always carried a rifle when he was on
18 his way to the forest.
19 Q. You said you weren't aware of the gender of
20 his wife's baby after these events. Did you not have
21 any contact with Mr. Papic as a customer after the
23 A. No, no. No. To tell you the truth, I don't
24 know today even about his children. I don't know.
25 Q. If I may, I would like to take you back a
1 moment to the 16th of April itself. You stated that
2 you arrived at the shelter, which was full of Croatian
3 ethnic persons, both men and women. That's correct,
5 A. Yes, there were both men and women, elderly
6 people, children, minors, and so on, and those refugees
7 were still coming in to the shelter.
8 Q. I believe you stated Mr. Marko Santic was in
9 the shelter at that time; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, all the elderly people. This was the
11 man I borrowed the rifle from, when I went on guard
12 duty. They were all there.
13 Q. You have said that at that time of day,
14 approximately 06.00, you saw Mr. Vlatko Kupreskic in
15 the shelter. That is clear?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You say you remained about ten minutes or so,
18 between 06.10 and 06.15, and you had left the shelter.
19 Was Mr. Vlatko Kupreskic still there?
20 A. Yes, all of them stayed behind.
21 Q. For the remainder of that day did you -- did
22 you see Mr. Vlatko Kupreskic at any time?
23 A. No. No, I didn't see him again. On that day
24 I didn't see him again.
25 Q. Because, of course, you left for the Radak
1 bridge and did you not revisit the shelter or go away
2 from that bridge for the whole of the rest of that day?
3 A. Yes, I didn't have the chance to see Vlatko
4 again because I was at the bridge and I was not allowed
5 to move away from it.
6 Q. So the only thing you can state with
7 certainty here is you know where Vlatko Kupreskic was
8 just before ten past 6.00 that morning?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. When you were in the shelter, did
11 you exchange words with any of the people there? Did
12 you speak to any of them?
13 A. I spoke to the refugees who were just
14 arriving. Those who were closer to the border of
15 Ahmici. The Croats living closer to Ahmici, they were
16 all fleeing in our direction.
17 Q. Did you, in fact, exchange any words with
18 Mr. Vlatko Kupreskic?
19 A. No, because Vlatko was already in the shelter
20 when I arrived, so I didn't talk to him at all.
21 Q. I believe you stated in your evidence that
22 the Croatian women told you that there had been heavy
23 fighting because of Muslim units that had attacked
24 Ahmici. That was the story you were given; is that
1 A. It is true that I said that Muslim units from
2 Ahmici had attacked the Croatian houses, and that they
3 said that Mirjan Santic had been killed in the conflict
4 in the morning. That's all I learned from those women,
5 nothing more.
6 Q. So what you're saying now is you were told
7 that Mirjan Santic had been killed in the conflict.
8 The women didn't say anything about heavy casualties on
9 both sides?
10 A. No, they didn't mention that. That morning I
11 didn't know anything about heavy casualties, I just
12 heard about Mirjan Santic. But later I learned that
13 there were many casualties on both sides.
14 Q. Have you ever endeavoured to verify what you
15 were told as being true and accurate?
16 A. No. I didn't move from the Radak bridge, nor
17 did I have any chance of verifying that.
18 Q. If I were to say to you, sir, that the
19 evidence indicated a large quantity of Muslim civilian
20 casualties, would that come as a surprise to you or be
21 something you may have heard subsequently?
22 A. It wouldn't be a surprise because I heard
23 that there were many casualties on both sides, so I
24 wouldn't be surprised at all.
25 Q. Then it would be a surprise to you, sir, if,
1 in fact, in Ahmici, on the 16th of April, there were
2 hardly any Croat casualties recorded, maybe only two or
3 three people? How would you react to that proposition,
5 A. Well, let me tell you. As far as I was
6 informed, there were casualties on both sides. I
7 really had no access to the facts.
8 Q. There's one thing I would like to ask you
9 now, sir, about the shelter itself. Can you give a
10 physical description of what that shelter comprised?
11 How deep in the ground it was, whether it had any --
12 what access indoors and windows and things, can you
13 tell me, please?
14 A. Yes, I can, I can. It was a house with two
15 storeys, and the cellar was dug into the ground and you
16 went down some steps to reach it. As for windows, in
17 such a short time I really didn't pay any attention to
18 see whether there were any openings, I just remember
19 that the entrance was large. You went down some steps
20 and then you entered through a big door.
21 Q. Can you give any indication of the
22 dimensions, how wide and how long the room was?
23 A. It was about ten metres -- about ten -- no,
24 about a hundred square metres. Ten by ten.
25 Q. Ten by ten. And can you indicate what the
1 state of the light was in there, or what lighting it
3 A. It had electric lighting, and I can't
4 remember whether it was on or whether it was daylight
5 already. I think it probably was still on. The
6 electrical lights were on, I believe.
7 Q. Just a moment to confer if I may, Your
8 Honours. I'm trying to be as expeditious as possible.
9 I just literally have about three more
10 questions, Your Honours, which will be convenient for
11 your break time, Mr. President.
12 Mr. Vidovic, I have just a couple more
13 questions for you. Could you just confirm again for me
14 who the other guards were at the other end of the Radak
15 bridge? I do believe you've given their names but I'd
16 just like them confirmed if you'd be so kind.
17 A. There was Zvonimir Santic and Jozo Alilovic,
18 but there were more of them only but I don't know
19 them. But among all of them I knew Zvonimir Santic and
20 Jozo Alilovic.
21 Q. Do you recall if they were in full uniforms?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Sorry, by that you mean no, they were not or
24 no, you do not remember?
25 A. They had civilian dress. We could see each
1 other well because the bridge is not a big one, so we
2 could see each other.
3 Q. But you say you don't recall the names of the
4 other people who came. Did they come and go as well?
5 Did they have others with them?
6 A. They also changed, they took turns, but
7 Zvonimir Santic and Jozo Alilovic were there.
8 Q. Do you recall how long they stayed at the
9 bridge? Was it a matter of just days or weeks?
10 A. For the first 20 days or so all of them
11 stayed there, and afterwards things changed. I don't
12 know. They changed more than we did. We didn't
13 change, as we didn't have replacements.
14 Q. Were there, in fact, any incidents at the
15 bridge during your guarding time there, particularly
16 any kind of shootings or injuries occurring?
17 A. Well, let me see. From the Muslim lines
18 there was a three-barrelled gun, so it was not possible
19 to cross the bridge, and as soon as a vehicle came or
20 something, the bridge would be shelled. Their aim was
21 probably to destroy the bridge because they knew that
22 this was our corridor. Those were the incidents that
23 occurred, no others.
24 Q. Just a couple more things if you would be so
25 kind. I have four names I would like to mention to
1 you, as to whether these are people whom you know.
2 The first is Zdranko Pranjkovic. Is that
3 name familiar to you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Stipica Santic?
6 A. There are several Stipica Santic, so I
7 couldn't answer that.
8 Q. Zeljko Grbavac?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Finally, Ivica Krizanac?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Finally, sir, were you acquainted with a lady
13 called Senada Hadzic?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You didn't have a neighbour by that name, or
16 a similar name that I may be mispronouncing?
17 A. Maybe I did, but I don't know. No, I
19 Q. Fine. Thank you.
20 That concludes the cross-examination by the
21 Prosecution. Thank you, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will take a
23 30-minute break.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Puliselic?
2 Re-examined by Mr. Puliselic:
3 Q. I will ask you a few additional questions.
4 In your testimony you said that it was not
5 permitted to leave your positions at Radak bridge.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You said that Dragan Papic did not move away
8 from that position for some ten days, that is, until
9 the time his wife delivered a baby.
10 A. Yes, that's what I said.
11 Q. My question refers to two specific dates, the
12 16th and the 17th of April, 1993. Are you quite
13 certain, 100 per cent sure, that on the 16th and the
14 17th of April Dragan Papic did not leave his position
15 as a guard?
16 A. I'm 100 per cent sure that Dragan Papic did
17 not leave that position for the first eight days of the
19 Q. Thank you. In view of the position you held
20 at Radak's bridge, and you said that Ahmici could not
21 be seen from there, could you tell us on what day was
22 the gunfire from Ahmici loudest?
23 A. It was loudest on the 16th, the day the
24 conflict started.
25 Q. Was there any gunfire on the 17th?
1 A. Yes, there was.
2 Q. Can it be said that as time passed the
3 shooting subsided?
4 A. No. On the contrary. There was gunfire all
5 the time. Not always in Ahmici but in other
6 localities, yes.
7 Q. You said that Nenad Santic informed Dragan
8 Papic that his wife had given birth, that he allowed
9 him to leave that guard post. Did I understand you
11 A. Yes, you did.
12 Q. You also spoke about the other side of the
13 bridge, the side near Donja Rovna, that the guards were
14 rather more numerous there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you tell us how many guards you would
17 see there, at least during the first few days?
18 A. There were three or four of them, but two
19 were there all the time, that is Zvonimir Santic and
20 Jozo Alilovic, and I knew them personally.
21 Q. So these were the people who spent the most
22 time there?
23 A. Yes. They were there all the time. Others
24 took turns, yes.
25 Q. Do you have any knowledge about Zvonko Santic
1 being wounded during patrol duty, seriously wounded?
2 A. Yes, I am aware of that.
3 Q. Did you learn subsequently that a comparative
4 large number of Muslims were killed in Ahmici and that
5 many houses were set on fire?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. PULISELIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I
8 have no further questions of this witness.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Par?
10 MR. PAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Re-cross-examined by Mr. Par:
12 Q. Mr. Vidovic, my learned friend the
13 Prosecutor, in the course of his cross-examination,
14 asked you to describe the shelter that you reached. I
15 will now show you several photographs so as to hear
16 your comments about them.
17 Could I ask the usher to show the witness
18 this photograph, please?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document D20/3.
20 MR. PAR:
21 Q. Could you tell me what is this a photograph
23 A. It is a photograph of a house and the
24 entrance to the house and the shelter.
25 Q. Is this the elaborate entrance that you
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could the witness be shown a second
4 photograph, please?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document D21/3.
6 MR. PAR:
7 Q. Would you turn it round a little, please so
8 that we can see it properly? That's right. That's
9 right. That's fine.
10 Could you tell me now what does this
11 photograph show?
12 A. That's right. It shows the way down to the
13 shelter, down the steps.
14 Q. Is that the entrance you described, from the
15 corridor you go down some steps to reach it?
16 A. But this was a long time ago. I never went
17 to that house again, but roughly, yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document D22/3.
19 MR. PAR:
20 Q. Can you tell us what is shown on this
22 A. This is the shelter where we were.
23 Q. Do you see the electric light that you
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you see the windows and the fact that the
2 premise has been dug in?
3 A. Yes. Yes, that is what can be seen on this
5 MR. PAR: I have no further questions, and I
6 should like to tender these three photographs into
8 JUDGE CASSESE: You have to provide the Court
9 and the Prosecution with copies, and only then can we
10 admit them into evidence. So if you kindly give us
11 tomorrow, provide us tomorrow copies, we will come back
12 to this issue.
13 MR. PAR: Very well, Your Honour. Thank
15 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Mr. Vidovic,
16 thank you for giving evidence in Court. You may now be
17 released. Thank you.
18 A. Thank you.
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Puliselic, any protective
21 measures for the next witness, Goran Papic?
22 MR. PULISELIC: No, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Very well. If he could be
24 brought in.
25 (The witness entered court)
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Papic.
2 Could you please make the solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
8 Counsel Puliselic?
9 WITNESS: GORAN PAPIC
10 Examined by Mr. Puliselic:
11 Q. Mr. Papic, good morning.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Will you please introduce yourself to Their
14 Honours, your name, date and place of birth, and where
15 you live?
16 A. My name is Goran Papic. I was born on the
17 4th of December, 1975, in Travnik. I live in Vitez, in
18 a place called Topola.
19 Q. Is it a place called Topola, or is it a part
20 of Santici?
21 A. Yes, it is a part of Santici.
22 Q. Could you tell us how you are related to
23 Dragan Papic?
24 A. Dragan Papic is my older brother.
25 Q. How old were you in 1992?
1 A. In 1992 I was sixteen and a half.
2 Q. So you were a minor?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you tell us who lived in your house at
5 the time?
6 A. In our house in 1992 there was my father,
7 Ivo; mother, Dragica; brother, Dragan; his wife,
8 Ruzica; my older sister, Ivanka; and myself.
9 Q. To your right is an aerial photograph of
10 Ahmici and the surroundings. With the help of the
11 pointer, could you please show us the house you lived
13 A. This is the house we lived in. (Indicating).
14 Q. Who is the owner of that house?
15 A. The owner of that house is my father, Ivo.
16 Q. Do you remember the year your brother got
18 A. My brother Dragan got married in August
20 MR. PULISELIC: Could I ask the usher for his
21 assistance, please.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document D11/5.
23 MR. PULISELIC:
24 Q. Mr. Papic, what kind of document is this?
25 A. It's a document that is a marriage
1 certificate proving that on the 10th of August, 1991 --
2 Q. Slow down, please.
3 A. -- Dragan Papic and Ruzica Lasta were
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where the
6 marriage took place?
7 A. In the church in Busovaca.
8 Q. Were there many guests at the wedding?
9 A. Yes, there were many guests at the wedding.
10 Q. Did the guests enjoy themselves? Were there
11 any problems?
12 A. There were no problems. It was a nice party,
13 and it went on until late that night.
14 Q. Where was the party held?
15 A. In the backyard of our house. So the wedding
16 was in Busovaca, and after the wedding the party took
17 place in the garden of our house in Santici.
18 Q. Were only Croats in attendance at the
19 wedding, or were there Muslims as well?
20 A. No, there were Muslims too. We were all
22 Q. Did you take photographs of that event?
23 A. Yes, there's a videotape of the whole wedding
25 Q. And the party?
1 A. Yes, the wedding itself and the party that
3 Q. Who made this film?
4 A. It was filmed by Mehmed Ahmic.
5 Q. Did he use his own camera?
6 A. Yes, the camera was owned by Mehmed Ahmic.
7 Q. Who was Mehmed Ahmic?
8 A. He was our next-door neighbour.
9 Q. Did he have a nickname?
10 A. His nickname was Sudjuka.
11 Q. How far is your house from his? Roughly.
12 A. Close to 60 metres. I don't know exactly.
13 Q. Could you show us on the aerial photograph
14 Mehmed Ahmic's house.
15 A. Mehmed Ahmic's house?
16 Q. First show us your house and then his.
17 A. This is our house, and this is Mehmed Ahmic's
18 house (Indicating).
19 Q. Considering the fact that Mehmed Ahmic was
20 invited to the wedding, and that he filmed the event
21 with his video camera, I assume that your brother,
22 Dragan Papic, was on very good terms with him.
23 A. Yes, the entire family was on good terms with
24 him, and we visited one another.
25 Q. So he used to come to your house and you
1 would visit his?
2 A. Yes, we went to his house. We visited each
3 other at home.
4 Q. Did you do any favours for each other?
5 A. Yes, when Mehmed Ahmic was building his new
6 house, we helped him, we supplied him with the
7 utilities he needed -- electricity, water -- free of
9 Q. So can you remember approximately when he was
10 building this house? If you can remember. If not --
11 A. No, I can't remember.
12 Q. At the wedding we referred to, were there any
13 other members of Mehmed Ahmic's family?
14 A. He was there with his entire family at the
16 Q. You said that there were other Muslims there?
17 A. Yes. All our neighbours, the entire Causevic
19 Q. Are you referring to your father's friend?
20 A. Yes, he was a friend of my father's, and he
21 still is. He is still my father's friend.
22 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many guests
23 there were?
24 A. I can't remember.
25 Q. At the wedding, was Fahrudin Ahmic there?
1 A. Yes, Fahrudin Ahmic was there with his
3 Q. Did he live nearby? Can you show us his
4 house on the aerial photograph?
5 A. Fahrudin Ahmic's house is here.
6 Q. So, close to the wood?
7 A. Yes, close to the wood.
8 Q. Were your father and Dragan therefore on good
9 terms with the Muslims?
10 A. Yes, they were on good terms.
11 Q. What was your father's occupation then?
12 A. My father was a plumber at that time.
13 Q. Is he still a plumber?
14 A. Yes, he is still a plumber.
15 Q. Did he do plumbing for anyone who asked him
17 A. Yes, for the entire village of Ahmici and the
18 surroundings, he did all the plumbing.
19 Q. So he did the plumbing in Muslim houses as
21 A. Yes, in Muslim houses too.
22 Q. Do you know that it was he who set up the
23 plumbing in the mosque?
24 A. Yes, in both mosques it was he who did the
1 Q. So in the one with the minaret and the one
2 without it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did your brother Dragan sometimes help him
5 when he had time? Do you know?
6 A. Yes, he helped him if he wasn't occupied with
7 his own job. If he wasn't working, and if my father
8 had a lot of work, he would help him.
9 Q. Can you tell us what Dragan Papic was by
11 A. He was a forester.
12 Q. What kind of school did he finish?
13 A. He finished school for forestry technicians.
14 Q. Where?
15 A. In Travnik.
16 Q. Do you know where he was employed?
17 A. He was employed in the Vitez forestry.
18 Q. Do you remember, until when was he employed
19 in the Vitez forestry, on a regular basis?
20 A. Until the beginning of the conflict, the 15th
21 of April.
22 Q. Do you know, or did he tell you, perhaps,
23 what his job consisted of?
24 A. His job consisted in preserving the wood and
25 the game.
1 Q. So he made sure that no one cut wood without
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember how he was dressed when he
5 went to his job? Did he always wear the same kind of
6 clothes, or different clothes?
7 A. Well, he had his uniform, which was green, a
8 forester's uniform, which he was issued when he got his
10 Q. Apart from this uniform, did he ever wear any
11 kind of camouflage jacket or anything like that?
12 A. Well, with the beginning of the war with the
13 Serbs, someone -- and I don't remember who -- gave him
14 a camouflage jacket which he would wear sometimes with
15 jeans. I don't remember him wearing any other kind of
17 Q. When he went to the woods, did he sometimes
18 carry a weapon?
19 A. Yes, sometimes he carried a rifle with him.
20 Q. What kind of rifle was it? Do you remember?
21 A. Well, it was an ordinary rifle, M-48, which
22 he had to carry because of wild animals.
23 Q. Do you remember -- do you know whether it was
24 his -- whether he owned it, or whether it belonged to
25 the company?
1 A. It was owned by the company.
2 Q. Do you know when Dragan did his service in
3 the Yugoslavia People's Army? What year was it?
4 A. I think it was 1987 to 1988. I'm not sure,
5 but I think that's when it was.
6 Q. Did he perhaps tell you about his return --
7 when he returned, sorry, from the JNA, or later, did he
8 tell you what kind of weapons he had been trained to
10 A. Yes, I remember he talked about it. He said
11 that he had learned to use infantry weapons and a
12 60-millimetre mortar which belongs to infantry
14 Q. Do you know whether Dragan at that time,
15 while he was employed, whether he was a member of the
17 A. No. He was not a member of the HVO.
18 Q. Why couldn't he be a member?
19 A. Because he was employed and no one asked him
20 to join.
21 Q. Do you know where he was in the first day of
22 the armed conflict, the conflict which started on the
23 16th of April?
24 A. Yes, I know. He kept guard at Radak's bridge
25 and in the beginning.
1 Q. Did he get an official invitation?
2 A. No, he didn't. He was sent there by Nenad
4 Q. How did he send him? Who was Nenad Santic to
5 send him there?
6 A. Nenad Santic at that time was the commander
7 of some kind of village guard or something like that.
8 I don't know what his post was exactly.
9 Q. How far is Radak's bridge, approximately, as
10 the crow flies from your house?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. But do you know where Radak's bridge is?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you show it on the aerial photograph?
15 A. This is Radak's bridge here.
16 Q. Can we see the river Lasva on the aerial
18 A. Yes. Yes. It was here.
19 Q. To go back again to your brother's job. You
20 said that he worked in the forestry until the 15th of
21 April, 1993, that is until the beginning of the war?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know whether after the war he got a
24 job somewhere?
25 A. Yes, I know he got a job in Imprenacija in
2 Q. Do you know what this company dealt in?
3 A. Imprenacija is a company processing wood and
4 producing products made of wood.
5 Q. Do you know whether your brother, Dragan
6 Papic, is still in Imprenacija as their employee?
7 A. Yes, I believe he still is.
8 Q. Why was this decision made at the company?
9 Do you know or can you assume?
10 A. Well, I think that the employees decided to
11 help his family because his family has no other income,
12 so in order to help his family they decided to keep him
13 as an employee.
14 Q. Dragan's wife is not employed?
15 A. No, she is unemployed. She is a housewife.
16 Q. I would like to ask the usher to take the
17 following documents.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document D12/5.
19 MR. PULISELIC:
20 Q. Mr. Papic.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This is a photocopy of a document. Can you
23 tell us what it is?
24 A. This is a photocopy of the employment book of
25 Dragan Papic.
1 Q. Can you turn to the page showing his
2 employment, page number 10, number 164 in the first
3 column. What does it say? Until when was your brother
4 employed in the ^ Lasvasunska forester's office?
5 A. The 15th of April, 1993.
6 Q. The next two boxes are empty. It says
7 "deleted." Do you know what this refers to?
8 A. No. Possibly there was some kind of error.
9 Q. Can it be seen at the end that he is now
10 employed in Imprenacija?
11 A. Yes. His employment started and then it
12 continues on the next page: He was already at The
13 Hague on these dates.
14 Q. Apart from his job at the company or at the
15 forestry office, was there anything else your brother
16 did in his spare time? What was his hobby?
17 A. His hobby, apart from his job, was repairing
19 Q. He learnt to do this on his own?
20 A. Yes. He was talented in that direction.
21 Q. Did he repair everybody's vehicles,
22 regardless of whether they were Muslims or Croats or
23 someone else?
24 A. Yes, he repaired vehicles for all those who
25 felt that he could, who trusted him. He would repair
1 their vehicles.
2 Q. Do you know whether he was interested in
3 political issues?
4 A. No, he was never interested in politics.
5 Q. How do you know that?
6 A. Well, he never expressed any political
7 opinions or conclusions. I don't remember that he ever
8 went to any political meetings. Sometimes he would
9 watch on television, but he was never active in any
10 other way.
11 Q. So we can say that he was not active
12 politically anywhere in the village?
13 A. No, no, he wasn't politically active
14 anywhere. He didn't have any political posts --
15 Q. He didn't have any political posts in
17 A. No, either in Santici or elsewhere.
18 Q. In your home, do you know whether any kind of
19 -- any kind of political meetings or military meetings
20 were held?
21 A. No, there were no meetings. It was a family
22 home. There were no meetings ever held there.
23 Q. Did your brother, Dragan, have a lot of
24 friends among the Muslims?
25 A. Yes, he had quite a few friends with whom he
1 had grown up in Santici.
2 Q. Did you know a person called Paco Nusret?
3 A. Yes, I knew Nusret Paco.
4 Q. Can you tell us who he was?
5 A. Nusret Paco was a refugee who had been driven
6 out from his village by the Serbs and he came to live
7 in a house close to our house.
8 Q. Was he a Muslim?
9 A. Yes, he was a Muslim.
10 Q. Did Dragan, your brother, associate with him?
11 A. Yes, they spent time together. Nusret Paco
12 would sometimes help him with the cars, although he
13 didn't really know how to do this very well, but they
14 were good friends.
15 Q. Do you know that Nusret Paco had a young
17 A. Yes, he had a young child.
18 Q. Did Dragan do something for that child?
19 A. Yes. He took milk for the child free of
20 charge. When he had time he would go to fetch the
21 milk, and when he wasn't there, my mother or my sister
22 would take milk to them or he would come to fetch the
23 milk himself.
24 Q. Nusret Paco was unable to buy milk?
25 A. No, he was a refugee. He was in somebody
1 else's house. He didn't have anything of his own.
2 Q. Whose house was it? Was it an abandoned
3 house or what?
4 A. It was a weekend house belonging to Hamo who
5 lived in Zenica, and Hamo would come there
6 occasionally. Later he didn't need it, so, like many
7 other people, he allowed refugees to use his house.
8 Q. Do you know whether your brother, Dragan,
9 sometimes went to the mosque?
10 A. Well, if someone died or if there was a
11 Muslim holiday, he would go there with his friends to
12 the mosque.
13 Q. Did your father also --
14 A. Yes, but only when someone died.
15 Q. Do you remember an event in October, 1992, I
16 am referring to the first conflict between the Muslims
17 and the Croats?
18 A. Yes, I remember the first conflict.
19 Q. Can you tell us how it came about and what
20 really happened that day?
21 A. On that day, the 20th of October, 1992,
22 Muslim units, organised and armed, set up a roadblock
23 at the cemetery and dug trenches to stop the HVO from
24 Busovaca and Kiseljak who were on their way to help
25 Jajce, which was about to fall. There was a conflict
1 because they stopped the HVO, so there was a conflict
2 between the HVO and the armed Muslim units in which
3 there were Muslims from Ahmici who were leading the
4 other Muslims from the other villages who had come to
5 help them.
6 Q. So the HVO from Busovaca and Kiseljak were
7 going to help the HVO in Jajce?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know who, or what do you think caused
10 the conflict, whose fault was it?
11 A. The Muslims caused the conflict on that day
12 and that conflict is their fault.
13 Q. Did any of the Croats from the area of
14 Ahmici, do you know, take part in this armed conflict?
15 A. No. The Croats, the villagers didn't know
16 what it was about or what was going on.
17 Q. Were any houses damaged in that conflict?
18 A. Yes, two houses were damaged and, perhaps,
19 some farm buildings.
20 Q. So together with the farm buildings,
21 altogether it would be five, six buildings?
22 A. Yes, five or six buildings in total were
24 Q. Do you know whether on that occasion anyone
25 was wounded or killed?
1 A. Yes, I know that of the Muslims, Pezer
2 Halid was killed. Of the Croats, a young man whose
3 surname was Vidovic, who was from Kiseljak, I don't
4 know his name.
5 Q. You mentioned Pezer Halid. Do you know where
6 he was killed?
7 A. Yes. He was killed -- he was killed near the
8 cemetery in the trench that had been dug by the Muslims
9 that night.
10 Q. Did you know Halid Pezer well? Were you on
11 good terms with him?
12 A. Yes, I had known him all my life and we had
13 been friends.
14 Q. Did you go to the same school?
15 A. Yes, we went to the same school, but he was
16 older than me.
17 Q. How much older?
18 A. Maybe a year or year and a half. I don't
19 remember exactly.
20 Q. Was Halid Pezer a soldier of the army of
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
22 A. No, he was messenger for Mehmed Ahmic and
23 Zaid Ahmic.
24 Q. Mehmed Ahmic also known as Sudjuka?
25 A. Yes, he was Sudjuka's messenger and Zaid
1 Ahmic's messenger.
2 Q. Who was Zaid Ahmic, who was this person? Did
3 he belong to the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
4 A. Yes, he was a member of the army of Bosnia
5 and Herzegovina, who was among the first soldiers from
6 Ahmici to join the army of BiH.
7 Q. You said that you knew Halid Pezer well. Can
8 you tell us whether his parents had any kind of
9 problems with him?
10 A. Yes, they had problems because the Muslims
11 from Ahmici went to the war front in Visoko and Mehmed
12 Ahmic and Zaid Ahmic organised this. I remember Halid
13 wanted to go and his parents didn't allow him to go,
14 and he had a row with his parents and ran away from
15 home. He didn't come back for two days. Then he came
16 back and I don't know what happened after that. But I
17 remember that.
18 Q. At the time of this conflict on the 20th of
19 October, 1992, was your father, Ivo Papic, at home?
20 A. No, my father was in Split on that day. He
21 was visiting a house we have in Split.
22 Q. In Split?
23 A. In Split. In a suburb of Split in
24 Kastel Gomilica.
25 Q. So your father was not at home on the 20th of
1 October. What about the others?
2 A. All of us were at home. My brother, Dragan,
3 his wife, my sister and I, we were at home.
4 Q. And then you heard gunfire. Did you hear
6 A. Yes, the gunfire woke us up and then we all
7 got up. At that moment we were most frightened by the
8 words we could hear coming from the loud speaker on the
9 mosque, "Croats, give yourself up and give up your
10 weapons." Then we started fleeing the house. I was
11 the last to stay in the house. I fled and a shot came
12 from the direction of Mehmed Ahmic's house toward me.
13 Q. These words, "Croats, give yourself up," was
14 that during a lull in the gunfire?
15 A. Yes, the gunfire was a little way away and
16 the mosque was close to our house, so we could hear it
18 Q. Is there a loud speaker on the mosque?
19 A. Yes, there is a loud speaker which they use
20 for their prayers, their daily prayers.
21 Q. You said that a shot came at you from Mehmed
22 Ahmic's house?
23 A. Yes, from the direction of Mehmed Ahmic's
24 house, a shot was fired at me.
25 Q. Where were the other members of the family?
1 Where did they go?
2 A. They fled to the woods. I was frightened. I
3 returned to the house. I stayed there for a brief
4 time. Then I ran out again into a hedge, and then I
5 followed my family behind the hedge.
6 Q. Did you find them in the woods?
7 A. No. They had already left. I found my
8 relatives, Zoran and Ivica, and my brother had told
9 them to wait for me, and my brother took my mother,
10 wife and sister and Zoran's mother, who was already in
11 the woods, towards Rovna.
12 Q. Why towards Rovna?
13 A. Because there were no Muslims in Rovna.
14 There was no conflict. It was peaceful there.
15 Q. You said that you hid in the woods with your
16 cousins and friends. Did you, perhaps, hear or see any
17 kind of anti-aircraft gun in that woods which was used
18 to fire at Mehmed Ahmic's house?
19 A. There were no -- there was no such weapon
20 near our house, because these were all family homes
21 inhabited by women, children, the elderly.
22 Q. But you were in the woods. Was there
23 anything like that?
24 A. No, there was nothing like it in the woods.
25 Q. Will you please show us on the aerial
1 photograph the woods that you hid in?
2 A. This is the wood that I hid in.
3 Q. When did you return home?
4 A. I returned home during the night. When night
5 fell we went back. We felt a little safer, though it
6 was stupid of us to go back but we did.
7 Q. Do you remember about what time did the
8 shooting stop on the 20th of October?
9 A. I cannot recollect exactly. Maybe about
10 4.00, 5.00 or 6.00. I can't remember exactly.
11 Q. You spoke about this wood, so I'd like to
12 know whether that wood is owned by several people?
13 A. Yes. This part of the woods is owned by five
14 different persons.
15 Q. Who owns the largest part of that wood?
16 A. This part of the woods is owned by Simo
18 Q. Who are the other owners?
19 A. There was Gavro Vidovic, then Anto Papic,
20 Marija Papic and a small part owned by my father Ivo
22 Q. So the smallest part of the woods was owned
23 by your father Ivo Papic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you tell us roughly how far that wood
1 is from Mehmed Ahmic's house is, roughly?
2 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. I think up to a
3 hundred metres. Maybe a little more. I can't tell you
4 exactly, I never measured it.
5 Q. I should like to ask the witness to be shown
6 Prosecution Exhibit 61.
7 Do you recognise the house on this
9 A. This is Mehmed Ahmic Sudzuka's house.
10 Q. Is that how the house looked after the
11 conflict of the 20th of October, 1992?
12 A. No, it didn't. This house wasn't seriously
13 damaged, only the right-hand side of the roof was
15 Q. Could you show us with this pointer?
16 A. This part was damaged, the back part of the
17 roof on the right-hand side.
18 Q. Could you tell us, is that the eastern facade
19 of the house?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When did this damage occur, the damage shown
22 on this picture?
23 A. This damage was the result of the second
25 Q. On the 16th of April?
1 A. Yes, on the 16th of April.
2 Q. Was Mehmed Ahmic in the house on the 16th of
4 A. No, he was not in the house.
5 Q. So he had left earlier on?
6 A. Yes. Because he was a member of the SDA
7 party, immediately after the first conflict he got an
8 apartment in Zenica.
9 Q. Did you learn subsequently, perhaps, from
10 which direction Mehmed Ahmic's house was hit, that is,
11 the eastern part of the roof?
12 A. Yes. I learned several days after the event
13 that I had been hit from the direction of Hrasno.
14 Q. Was there talk that the shooting had come
15 from Hrasno during that conflict?
16 A. Yes. After the conflict we learned that a
17 missile had been fired from Hrasno.
18 Q. The damage to the roof on the eastern side of
19 the house, could it have been caused by any fire? Let
20 us assume that there may have been an anti-aircraft gun
21 in the wood. Could the damage have been caused on the
22 roof by fire coming from that direction?
23 A. No, because from the wood you can only see
24 the front part of the house and the house was hit at
25 the back.
1 Q. Can you tell me anything about Mehmed Ahmic
2 as a person? Did he change in any way?
3 A. Mehmed Ahmic was not very popular among his
4 own Muslims.
5 Q. Why?
6 A. Because he was a gambler. He would borrow
7 money without paying it back, he did trade in stolen
8 vehicles, so that he cheated quite a large number of
9 people, both Muslims and Croats, so that he wasn't
10 loved even among his own Muslims. And especially after
11 the elections, he was in the SDA party and he was among
12 the leading extremists at the time.
13 Q. So he was involved in politics.
14 A. Yes. He was a politician. And at the
15 beginning -- or, rather, after the elections, cars were
16 parked in front of his house marked as BH army
17 vehicles. At the time this didn't interest me nor did
18 I know what was going on.
19 Q. So he was in the SDA leadership for Vitez
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You said that your brother Dragan did
23 occasionally wear a uniform, ever since the beginning
24 of the war with the Serbs?
25 A. Yes, but not a complete uniform. Sometimes
1 he would just wear a camouflage jacket that he had.
2 Q. Were there any insignia on that uniform?
3 A. No, there were never any insignia on that
5 Q. Are you aware that he owned and occasionally
6 wore a black uniform?
7 A. Yes, he did own a black uniform. It was
8 given to him as a present by somebody whose vehicle he
9 had prepared, because it was useful if he went to
10 Zenica or somewhere else, he would not be stopped at
11 the checkpoints, and that is why he would wear it
12 sometimes, though it was too small for him. So I saw
13 him wearing it very rarely.
14 Q. So it was a good idea to wear a black uniform
15 if you went to Zenica?
16 A. Yes, because the HOS was the only organised
17 force in Zenica at the time, and all of them were
18 wearing black uniforms.
19 Q. And why did he wear the camouflage uniform?
20 A. He wore it because everybody was wearing it.
21 All young men were wearing uniforms. It was the
22 fashion at the time just before the war.
23 Q. So young people who were not members of any
24 particular units --
25 A. Yes, they would get them from their friends
1 and they would wear them.
2 Q. Did Dragan occasionally take part in village
3 guard duty?
4 A. Maybe sometimes when someone was ill or when
5 he didn't have to go to work in the morning, but this
6 was very rarely.
7 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the village
8 guards in your area, how they were organised? Were
9 they perhaps organised by any military structures? How
10 did it all come about?
11 A. No, the local people, out of fear from the
12 Serbs, they organised these village guards. They were
13 people who organised themselves and who were protecting
14 their families, because it happened in places that Serb
15 extremists would break into a village and commit
17 Q. So as far as I understood, at first the
18 guards were jointly -- guard duty was jointly kept?
19 A. Yes, by Muslims and Croats together.
20 Q. How about the weapons of those guards?
21 A. At first they mostly used hunting rifles and
22 maybe a couple of M-48's, but no better equipment than
24 Q. Do you know that later on the guard split?
25 A. Yes. When the Muslims organised their own
1 party, the SDA party, they separated, they received
2 weapons, they purchased weapons and they did everything
3 to separate from us and, in fact, they did separate.
4 Q. Did you see something to the effect, as was
5 stated here, that you were seen with your brother
6 Dragan in the period in between the two conflicts and
7 that Dragan had a strangling device in his hand?
8 A. That is not true. That is absolutely not
9 true. Maybe somebody said that we actually strangled
11 Q. Do you remember the day prior to the second
12 conflict, that is, the 15th of April, 1993? Did
13 anything special take place? Where was Dragan on that
14 day, the 15th of April?
15 A. On the 15th of April I was at school, Dragan
16 was at work. In the afternoon we were at home.
17 Nothing interesting took place. Nothing out of the
18 ordinary. I don't know. I don't know how to put it.
19 Q. So there were no indications that a conflict
20 could break out the next day?
21 A. No, nothing at all. Everything was quite
23 Q. What did you do that afternoon?
24 A. I helped my brother a little in repairing a
1 Q. Now, tell us a little more about this second
2 conflict on the 16th of April, 1993. Do you remember
3 how things developed, what happened? Were you awakened
4 by gunfire again in the morning?
5 A. The 16th of April started with gunfire. It
6 woke us up. And as we had lived through a similar
7 conflict in October with the Muslims, we all got up.
8 My father was frightened most of all. We all went into
9 the kitchen from our bedrooms. We ran out of the
10 house, we fled to the woods. We already found some
11 neighbours there who had got there before us, my aunt
12 Marija with her children.
13 Just as we arrived in the woods, Ljubica
14 Milicevic arrived with her children. She was crying.
15 She didn't know what was happening because her husband
16 had left for work.
17 Then my father said to Dragan that he should
18 take his wife, who was in advanced pregnancy, my
19 sister, mother and the other women, that he should take
20 them to Rovna. And as the fire was strong, we fled
21 towards a stream at the end of the woods, and that is
22 where we stayed all day until nightfall.
23 In the night we returned home following that
24 stream. We emerged near Ljubica Milicevic's house and
25 we ran across the remaining distance to reach our
2 Q. So you returned home during the night?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Why did you go to Ljubica Milicevic's?
5 A. Because we were following that stream that
6 flowed right below her house. At the end of that
7 stream there is a mild slope which takes you to her
8 house, that you have to climb to reach her house.
9 Q. So Dragan went to Donja Rovna?
10 A. Yes. He took the women there.
11 Q. The next day did you notice any damage on
12 your house?
13 A. Yes. The next day in the morning we realised
14 what had happened there, and we saw damage done to many
15 houses including our own.
16 Q. What do you think? How was that damage
18 A. I think it was inflicted by infantry
20 Q. Where was the damage greatest?
21 A. The greatest damage was on the roof. The
22 minor damage was on the front facade.
23 Q. Did you repair the roof quickly?
24 A. Yes, as soon as we came back to the house we
25 had to repair the roof very soon after that to be able
1 to live there.
2 Q. Could I ask the usher for his assistance,
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document D13/5.
5 MR. PULISELIC:
6 Q. Mr. Papic, is that your house?
7 A. Yes, that is our house.
8 Q. Is the damage on the house visible?
9 A. I can't see it well on this photograph.
10 Something must be wrong.
11 Q. Well, look at the photograph itself.
12 MR. PULISELIC: Could the usher help me
13 again, please.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document D14/5.
15 MR. PULISELIC:
16 Q. Is this the front facade of your house, taken
17 close up?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you mark with your pen, on this
20 photograph that you see on the ELMO, the damage.
21 A. (Marks)
22 And all the damage is not visible.
23 MR. PULISELIC: The usher's assistance,
25 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
2 MR. PULISELIC:
3 Q. Will you please mark the damage that is
4 visible on this photograph?
5 A. (Marks).
6 Q. Where did this occur? What is this?
7 A. This is the top part of the door.
8 MR. PULISELIC: Another photograph, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document D16/5.
10 MR. PULISELIC:
11 Q. Mark the damage you see here.
12 A. (Marks).
13 Q. Before that day, the 16th of April, your
14 brother, Dragan Papic, do you know where he was?
15 A. Yes, I learned that my brother, Dragan,
16 stayed to keep guard duty at Radak's bridge.
17 Q. Do you know why Radak's bridge? It's an old
18 bridge; why was it important? Why did it have to be
20 A. The bridge as such provided the only
21 communication line between Vitez and Busovaca on that
22 day, because the Muslims had built a checkpoint at
23 Buhine Kuce, a machine-gun nest, so passage was not
25 Q. Was this the only place of communication on
1 that day, or throughout the war?
2 A. Throughout the war, that was the only line of
4 Q. You said that the main road had been cut
6 A. At Buhine Kuce.
7 Q. How had it been cut?
8 A. The Muslims positioned a machine-gun nest
10 Q. So it was dangerous to pass by there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How far is Buhine Kuce from Santici?
13 A. I don't know exactly. Maybe 2 kilometres.
14 Q. Do you recall that Dragan wore a beard at the
16 A. Yes, he had a long beard.
17 Q. Was it longer than now?
18 A. Yes, it was a much longer beard than he is
19 wearing now.
20 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, we would like
21 to show a videotape. Perhaps it would be better to do
22 it after the break, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Is it a videotape of the
25 MR. PULISELIC: No, no. It's a videotape of
1 the family and an event. It is not the wedding.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you suggesting that we
3 should take a break now? Yes. All right.
4 15 minutes.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.
6 --- Upon resuming at 12.30 p.m.
7 MR. PULISELIC: So I suggest we see a
8 videotape taken in 1993, in the month of July.
9 (Videotape played).
10 MR. PULISELIC: Stop.
11 Q. Mr. Papic, who is this woman on the film?
12 A. This woman is the mother of Ruzica, Dragan's
14 Q. And who is she holding?
15 A. She is holding Dragan's first child, Marjan.
16 Q. So Marjan was about three months old then?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. PULISELIC: Will you play the video,
20 (Videotape played).
21 MR. PULISELIC: Fast forward, please.
22 Stop. Stop.
23 Q. Mr. Papic, who do you recognise on this
25 A. I recognise my brother, Dragan.
1 Q. Is this the kind of beard that he wore at the
2 time of the conflict in April 1993?
3 A. It was even longer than that.
4 Q. And who is he holding?
5 A. He's holding his son, Marijan.
6 Q. So the tape was taken on the 18th of July,
7 1993, as indicated.
8 MR. PULISELIC: We can proceed, please. Play
9 the tape.
10 (Videotape played)
11 MR. PULISELIC: Stop.
12 Q. Who is that on the left? You recognise
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I think that
16 is sufficient. That's all we need from this tape.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Very well.
18 MR. PULISELIC:
19 Q. Mr. Papic, did Dragan later shave off his
21 A. Yes, he shaved it off when he baptised his
23 Q. You said that that is his older son, Marijan;
24 does he have another son?
25 A. Yes, he has another son, who was born in
2 MR. PULISELIC: Can I ask the usher for his
3 assistance, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The videotape was number
5 D17/5, and this document is number D18/5.
6 MR. PULISELIC: Could the registrar please
7 give us the number of the videotape -- 17; it's all
8 right. Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Papic, what is this document?
10 A. This is a birth certificate of Marijan Papic,
11 evidence of his birth.
12 Q. When was he born?
13 A. In September 1993.
14 Q. Can we see the date?
15 A. The 28th -- no, I'm sorry; April.
16 Q. So this is 12 days after the conflict, isn't
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know where Marijan was born?
20 A. He was born in Rijeka.
21 Q. That is where?
22 A. That is in the suburbs of Vitez.
23 Q. And who delivered the baby?
24 A. Ulfeta Tuco, who followed the pregnancy of my
25 sister-in-law, and Ruzica trusted her. She is Muslim.
1 She was a midwife.
2 MR. PULISELIC: Usher, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document D19/5.
4 MR. PULISELIC:
5 Q. Mr. Papic, what is this document?
6 A. It is the same kind of document, only it is a
7 birth certificate for Dragan's son, Dejan.
8 Q. When was he born?
9 A. On the 26th of September, 1995.
10 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether ever, in
11 front of your house or anywhere near it, there was a
12 machine-gun nest, a machine gun, or an anti-aircraft
14 A. No. As I said before, our house and the
15 other houses were family homes, inhabited by older
16 people: My own father, mother, my sister-in-law, who
17 was pregnant; so this was not any kind of strategic
18 location, nor were there any weapons there.
19 Q. Did anyone from your house fire from a
21 A. No. Never.
22 Q. Did any one of you own a sniper rifle?
23 A. No. No one owned a sniper rifle.
24 Q. What did Dragan own?
25 A. Dragan owned an ordinary rifle, an M-48, that
1 he was given at work a long time ago.
2 Q. Do you have any knowledge about Dragan
3 shooting at any time at Muslim homes or threatening
5 A. No, he never threatened Muslims, he never
6 shot at Muslims. I don't know of that.
7 Q. Do you know that Dragan ever took part in a
8 physical fight?
9 A. As far as I know, I do not recall any
10 incident involving him and someone else.
11 Q. What can you tell us about your brother as a
13 A. He was a good-natured person. He would
14 assist people that he could. He was not interested in
15 politics. He was quite a good repairman for vehicles.
16 Q. Was he ever convicted? Did he have a
17 criminal record?
18 A. No, never.
19 MR. PULISELIC: Usher, please.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document D20/5.
21 MR. PULISELIC:
22 Q. Mr. Papic, what is this document?
23 A. This is a document certifying that Dragan
24 Papic has not ever been convicted.
25 Q. Who issued the document?
1 A. The police administration of Vitez.
2 Q. Can you tell us whether you know, was there a
3 flag flying from your house all the time?
4 A. No, during the Christmas holidays every
5 household would hoist a Croatian flag, just as the
6 Muslims would fly their own green flag for their
8 Q. Was there any other kind of flag on your
10 A. No, never. There was never any other kind of
11 flag on our house.
12 Q. Were there cars around your house before the
13 war and after the war?
14 A. There were fewer before the war and since the
15 war there are many more because before the war it was
16 only my brother, and now I have continued his work
17 after the war.
18 Q. Do you know whether your brother, Dragan, had
19 a Lada vehicle, a red Lada vehicle?
20 A. Yes, he did own a red Lada vehicle.
21 Q. Do you remember when the car was purchased?
22 A. I think it was purchased in 1995, towards the
23 end of the war from the Vjetrenica company.
24 MR. PULISELIC: The usher's assistance,
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document D21/5.
2 MR. PULISELIC:
3 Q. What kind of document is this?
4 A. It is a document on the buying and selling of
5 the Lada vehicle that Dragan purchased from the
6 Vjetrenica company.
7 Q. Can you see the colour from the contract?
8 A. Yes. It is red. And on the back side we can
9 see the date when this document was certified. Yes,
10 the 9th of January, 1995.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether your brother
12 owned a car before?
13 A. Yes. He had a Zastafa 101.
14 Q. What colour was it?
15 A. It was yellow.
16 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I should like
17 to ask the sound to be turned off or, rather, for us to
18 go into private session for a few minutes only.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Granted. Private
21 (Private session)
13 Page 7071 redacted – in private session
13 Page 7072 redacted – in private session
13 Page 7073 redacted – in private session
13 Page 7074 redacted – in private session
13 Page 7075 redacted – in private session
13 Page 7076 redacted – in private session
19 (Open session)
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the
21 Prosecutor, please
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Papic. My name is Franck
24 Terrier, I am one of the members of the Prosecution. I
25 am going to put a number of questions to you concerning
1 your testimony, the testimony you've just made before
2 this Tribunal. Before getting to the events of that
3 time period, please state what your present occupation
5 A. My present occupation is that I sell spare
6 parts for vehicles.
7 Q. Who is your employer, Mr. Papic?
8 A. I am self-employed. I am the boss of my own
10 Q. Are you married?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You stated a moment ago that you lived in
13 Vitez, unless I'm mistaken; is that correct? Were you
14 working in Ahmici?
15 A. I don't live in Vitez exactly but a suburb of
16 Vitez called Santici in a place called Topala. I
17 didn't understand your second question.
18 Q. My question, sir, was with regards to the
19 place in which you worked. Do you work in Ahmici?
20 A. No. Before the war I went to school.
21 Q. Sir, the question I'm asking you, I'm not
22 sure that we have understood one another, is to know
23 where you are currently working. Where?
24 A. Currently I have a shop where I sell spare
25 parts, and it's in my home in Topala in Santici.
1 Q. And your father, does he still work?
2 A. Yes, my father still works. He maintains the
3 water-mains for Vitez as far as the village of
4 Nadioci. He maintains it all.
5 Q. Will you please show to the witness the
6 document -- Prosecution Exhibit 61. We just showed it
7 to him earlier.
8 On the left of this photograph, sir, there is
9 a red panel -- rather, a yellow panel with red
10 letters. It seems to be some sort of a commercial
11 billboard. We have other photographs, of course, of
12 this billboard, but I'm using this one now for
13 convenience's sake since we have it at hand. What does
14 this sign state? Can you satisfied our curiosity in
15 this regard?
16 A. This sign states that these are scraps, car
17 scraps and sale of spare parts and it shows my
19 Q. So this relates then to your own professional
20 activity, your own business? Thank you.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I would like for us to go back to the latter
23 months of 1992 and the first months of 1993. In the
24 beginning of 1993 you were 17 years of age?
25 A. In early 1993. Just a moment. I was about
1 sixteen and a half.
2 Q. Unless I'm mistaken about your date of birth,
3 didn't you have your 18th birthday in December 1993?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Eighteen years of age, is that not the year
6 of coming of age or the official year of age in
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. At the end of 1992, early 1993, at that time
10 you were living with your family, with your parents,
11 your brother and your little sister?
12 A. Yes. I lived with my family.
13 Q. How old was your little sister -- younger
15 A. My sister is older than me. She was born in
17 Q. Pardon me. I apologise for that error.
18 You stated, sir, that in the family climate
19 of that time that there was no clear interest in
20 politics. Can you please confirm this for me? Is this
21 true? Is this exact?
22 A. Yes, that's correct. My father was a
23 plumber, my mother was a housewife, and my sister
24 worked in a shop owned by a relative and I went to
25 school and no one was engaged in any kind of political
2 Q. Don't you have any memory of any discussions
3 at the household or perhaps with your brother Dragan of
4 the situation concerning the Croatian nation at that
5 time or about the history of the Croatian nation?
6 A. We never had such discussions at home. What
7 we saw on television, in the media, we would sometimes
8 comment on that a little but we never had any political
9 discussions, especially before the war, in the pre-war
10 period, or about pre-war politics.
11 Q. You stated that your family, your brother, in
12 particular your brother Dragan, had excellent relations
13 with the Muslims living in Ahmici in particular, in
14 particular with some of the neighbours. Did you not
15 know that these excellent relations that existed before
16 the war were transformed or deteriorated after the
17 beginning of the war? In that I mean the last months
18 of 1992 or the first months of 1993.
19 A. Relations never deteriorated with the
20 Muslims. The relations changed among Muslims and
21 Croats but never to any great extent. After the
22 elections everyone -- the Muslims turned away from the
23 Croats, the Croats from the Serbs, but we never had any
24 problems. We lived normally with our neighbours who
25 were Muslims.
1 Q. When you talked about a change in these
2 relations, to the best of your memory what are you
3 referring to?
4 A. Well, all I wanted to say was that Mehmed
5 Ahmic Sudzuka got a position in the SDA party and he
6 changed completely. He didn't want to communicate with
7 the Croats, he didn't want to co-operate either in
8 business or any other way. He avoided any kind of
9 friendship. He avoided everything.
10 We were very surprised by this, because in
11 past years we had lived in a different way, but he was
12 such a person that he did all sorts of things.
13 Q. But aside -- if we were to set aside the case
14 of Mr. Ahmic, what about the case of Fahrudin Ahmic and
15 the relations that you had with him and his family.
16 Did they change?
17 A. We were on good terms with him. We never had
18 any bad relations with him, although the leading people
19 in the village who were the political leaders were such
20 that he was afraid to associate with us and we were
21 surprised by this, but this was noticeable.
22 Q. Therefore, to summarise your viewpoint, it
23 seems that relations between Croats and Muslims within
24 the village of Ahmici changed, became cooler and less
25 frequent due to the facts as you've just stated, due to
1 the fact that the Muslims themselves caused this to
2 happen. Have I correctly summarised your viewpoint?
3 A. Yes. The Muslims caused the change
5 Q. You stated, I believe, that your brother
6 Dragan, and your father as well, had gone to the
7 mosques on various solemn occasions. Do you recall the
8 last time your brother and your father went to the
10 A. I can't remember. A lot of time has passed
11 since then.
12 Q. Yes, I understand, of course.
13 You stated that your father, who was a
14 plumber, had done the plumbing in the two mosques in
15 Ahmici. You presented this piece of information as
16 evidence of the fact that your father had good
17 relations with Muslims.
18 I would like for you to tell me whether there
19 were other plumbers in Ahmici, apart from your father.
20 A. No, there were no other plumbers in Ahmici
21 except for my father. There were some in Vitez, but in
22 the area of Santici, Nadioci, there was just my
24 Q. Your father was paid for his work, was he
1 A. No, my father did this on a voluntary basis,
2 of his own accord. He did not ask for payment. This
3 was a gift to the religious building, the house of
5 Q. You told us about the first job that was
6 occupied by Dragan before the war. Can you please
7 explain for us what type of work it consisted of being
8 a forester, and why would one need a firearm?
9 A. Dragan needed the job and he did it because
10 he was educated for it, and he did it to support his
11 wife and have his own income.
12 Q. Yes, of course, witness. I'm the not
13 contesting that fact. I'm not asking you why he was
14 working. I'm asking what his work consisted of and why
15 he would need a weapon in the course of this work.
16 A. His job consisted in preventing thefts from
17 the forest, and he had to carry a weapon because of the
18 wild animals which were especially aggressive during
19 the winter.
20 Q. Who was Dragan Papic's employer?
21 A. His employer was the Vitez forestry. The
22 director was a Muslim from Kruscica, but I don't know
23 his name. I've forgotten it.
24 Q. Do you recall up to what point your brother
25 Dragan Papic carried out this work?
1 A. Dragan Papic carried out it this work until
2 the 15th of April, 1993 in the forestry as a forester.
3 Q. And why on the days that followed, I'm not
4 referring to the 16th, of course, but why in the days
5 that followed did he not return to his work?
6 A. Because the war broke out and no one could
7 continue doing their job. The conflict began between
8 the Muslims and the Croats.
9 Q. And what role did your brother Dragan play
10 during that war?
11 A. He did not have a role, he was only put there
12 at the beginning of the war to guard Radak's bridge, to
13 guard the bridge, to maintain the Vitez-Busovaca
14 communication. After that his son was born, and after
15 that he was sent to the frontline in Krtina Mahala
16 somewhere. I think about 20 days after the conflict of
17 the 16th of April. He was an ordinary soldier
18 afterwards when he was sent to Krtina Mahala.
19 Q. So you're stating that after the 15th of
20 April, 1993, I'm not going to specify the date to avoid
21 any problems, but after that time period your brother
22 became a soldier within the HVO and fought in the
23 course of that work which took place during the months
24 of 1993?
25 A. No, I didn't say that. He didn't become a
1 soldier on the 15th of March (sic). On the 15th of
2 March (sic) he was only guarding Radak's bridge. After
3 20 days -- 20 days after he went to Radak's bridge he
4 was assigned to Krtina Mahala. Before that he was just
5 an ordinary guard guarding Radak's bridge.
6 Q. Yes, of course, I understood, but to avoid
7 having this type of discussion I'm not going to name
8 any dates.
9 Would you agree with me in saying that after
10 that time period, and in particular when he was called
11 upon to go to the frontline, at that point he became an
12 HVO soldier and then fought as an HVO soldier during
13 that war?
14 A. On the 15th and 16th of March -- no, sorry, I
15 mean April, he didn't get any kind of official notice
16 to go to the frontline somewhere and to fight. It was
17 only 20 days later that he was assigned to his post.
18 Q. Once again, I don't want to trouble you in
19 any way whatsoever, but what I wish to understand and
20 the purpose of my question is to understand that within
21 a certain time period in 1993, let's say 20 days after
22 the 16th of April, 1993, of course, we're going to come
23 back to this issue of dates, but for the time being I
24 simply wish to understand whether some 20 days after
25 the 16th of April, 1993, your brother indeed became a
1 soldier within the HVO.
2 A. Yes, he became a soldier like all the others
3 who became soldiers who had not been soldiers up to
4 that time.
5 Q. Were you yourself a soldier within the HVO?
6 A. I only became a soldier in late 1993, early
8 Q. Did you become an HVO soldier on the date you
9 turned 18?
10 A. Maybe some two months after that. Maybe a
11 month later. I don't remember exactly.
12 Q. Did you volunteer, or were you called upon?
13 A. I was mobilised. I was not a volunteer.
14 Q. What role did you personally play within this
15 war when you were called upon?
16 A. I was at the front line in Barin Gaj. Like
17 all the others, we were in trenches. I didn't have any
18 extra tasks to do. I was just an ordinary soldier.
19 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Usher.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 351.
21 MR. TERRIER:
22 Q. Sir, would you please look at this document.
23 It is a photocopy, photocopy of a register which was
24 maintained by the HVO. We see now here the cover,
25 photocopy of the cover, and a photocopy of the first
1 page, and a blown-up photocopy of a page on which you
2 find a list of names to which I'm going to draw your
4 Have you seen this document before?
5 A. No. No, I haven't seen it.
6 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, we have only
7 just received this document during the break, and we
8 have not had time to study it or look at it, the
9 document that the Prosecutor is referring to now.
10 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, this is a
11 document which is quite simple on the face of it. It
12 is indeed quite thick, if you see the entire document.
13 However, there was only one page and indeed two lines
14 which were of interest to us, and therefore we
15 disclosed this document to the Defence before the
16 beginning of the cross-examination. There are other
17 documents which we felt should also be presented to
18 this Trial Chamber during the course of the
19 cross-examination. I hope the Trial Chamber will
20 understand that a few days ago, I could not have
21 imagined that I would be able to get a hold of such a
22 document, or even need it.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I understand. In any
24 case, Mr. Puliselic will have this afternoon to look
25 through this document, because I don't imagine that
1 we'll be able to finish.
2 MR. PULISELIC: No, Your Honour, you're
3 right. I don't believe we will be able to finish with
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, indeed. So we will be
6 able to continue tomorrow with cross-examination, and
7 Mr. Puliselic will have the necessary time to ask
8 questions and this afternoon can take advantage of this
9 afternoon's break to look through and examine very
10 closely the contents of this document.
11 MR. TERRIER: I also wish to add,
12 Mr. President, that the Trial Chamber may understand
13 that the guidelines, the directives of this Trial
14 Chamber, sometimes indeed do pose certain problems with
15 regards to the examination. We have tried to ensure
16 that this document was submitted before the
17 cross-examination, and that it only involves the
18 accused in question here, whose counsel called this
19 witness. So, if you will, it does not involve any of
20 the other accused.
21 Q. Witness, I'd like to draw your attention to
22 the page which I believe is before you now, and in
23 particular to the two names, 4628 and 4629.
24 Witness, do you see these two names?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Let us begin with the name that is across
2 from 4628. Here we see Iva Dragan Papic?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. On the following column there is a number,
5 identification number. There's a blank column, and
6 then another column. We see the letter "P." Do you
7 know what the "P "stands for?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. The two following columns, as we understand
10 it, specify the time in which the person was engaged in
11 these units. This can be verified by consulting the
12 first page of this registry, or log. For Dragan Papic,
13 we can see that his time of service started on the 8th
14 of April, 1992, and lasted into 15 January, 1996.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, what is your
16 question, please?
17 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, perhaps my
18 question was not a question; I will continue.
19 Q. My question was quite simply -- if it was a
20 question -- to draw the witness's attention to these
21 two columns. And in the first we see the starting
22 point for the service in the unit, and the second
23 column contains the last date of service within that
24 unit. In other words, if we were to consult these two
25 columns, we would understand that Iva Goran Papic was
1 engaged on the 8th of April, 1992, until the 15th of
2 January, 1996. Does this fact prompt any type of
3 reaction or comment on your part?
4 A. I don't know. This is not correct. What
5 confuses me most is that there are women's names here.
6 My sister's name is here, and some other female names.
7 I don't understand the purpose of this document. I
8 don't know what it was, because this is not correct at
10 Q. I'll come back to that, Witness. I simply
11 wish for you to understand-- to draw attention, rather,
12 to the transcript. I talked about page 109, and talked
13 about whether the -- I talked about Dragan Papic and
14 not Goran Papic.
15 Going back to that document again, can you
16 see the signature, Dragan Papic?
17 A. I don't know what this is. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recognise the signature as being that
19 of your brother?
20 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't judge
22 Q. Do you know your brother's signature?
23 A. Well, I don't remember -- I've forgotten
24 during this time.
25 Q. Very well. On the line below that one, 4629,
1 can you see the name "Papic, Iva Goran," engaged on the
2 16th of December, 1993, until the 15th of January,
3 1996? And on the right there is a signature, a
4 handwritten signature. Do you recognise this signature
5 as being your own?
6 A. It does resemble my signature, but I don't
7 remember ever having signed such a document.
8 Q. Would you admit today, having examined this
9 document, that it is indeed your signature?
10 A. I wouldn't, because I never signed this
12 Q. Let us be very clear, sir: Are you saying
13 you don't remember having signed this document? Or are
14 you asserting that you have never signed this document,
15 and consequently what was written here has been
17 A. I didn't sign this document. But whether it
18 has been falsified or not, I don't know.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you have many more
20 questions on this particular issue?
21 MR. TERRIER: No, Your Honour, I wish to
22 continue with this particular issue.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: No, but we have another
24 hearing at 2.00, so unfortunately we must stop here.
25 We will resume tomorrow at 9.00.
1 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
2 1:35 p.m., to be reconvened on
3 Wednesday, the 17th day of February,
4 1999, at 9.00 a.m.