1 Tuesday, 24, February, 1999
2 (The accused entered court)
3 (Open session)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours,
6 case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
7 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
8 Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. I hope there
10 is a translation. Is there any translation? Yes.
11 Well, first of all, we deeply regret the
12 delay which is caused by the absence of the -- strange
13 absence of the technicians. We have decided anyway to
14 start, although we are only getting a transcript later
15 on, there will be no live notes for the time being, but
16 we hope that by the time we move on to substantial
17 matters we may have the technicians available.
18 Now, first of all, let me deal with two
19 preliminary issues, housekeeping matters.
20 We have received a motion from the Defence
21 relating to the calling by the Court of a Judge, the
22 Judge -- I don't know whether I can say her name, and
23 the other witness, the lady whose name cannot be
25 Now, I understand before we serve those
1 summonses, the relevant authorities would like to know
2 the date when those witnesses should be called here.
3 Since we are calling those witnesses at the request of
4 Defence counsel, we were wondering whether the Defence
5 counsel could suggest a date so that we can put a date
6 in the relevant documents to be sent over to the
7 competent authorities. I wonder whether you could
8 quickly consult with one another and decide what to do.
9 Yes, please, Counsel Slokovic-Glumac.
10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Good morning, Your
11 Honours. Good morning, Mr. President. We would like
12 if these two witnesses could come together so that we
13 could hear them together, and we suggest that it takes
14 place sometime in April because this witness will be
15 questioned by several Defence counsel. So we propose
16 that this takes place sometime in April.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. This means that
18 this should be between the 26th and the 29th of April.
19 We have only four working days available, I'm afraid,
20 because as you know, the 30th is Queen's Day, it's a
21 holiday. I wonder -- thank you.
22 Any comments from the Prosecution?
23 MR. BLAXILL: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Good. So we can move on to
25 other matters. As you have realised, as you know,
1 the -- one of the Judges, Judge May, is ill and is not
2 likely to attend our hearings before Monday, because he
3 has been taken ill with a serious flu. We were
4 wondering whether the other party pursuant to Rule 71
5 was prepared to put in a request that we should take
6 their positions so that we can go on and not waste
8 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed, sir. Your Honour, the
9 Prosecution is prepared to make that formal request of
10 the Chamber, that you can sit as presiding officers
11 under Rule 71(A), and hear depositions in the remaining
12 days of this week, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: What about Defence counsel?
14 In particular I would like to ask Counsel Puliselic
15 whether he would also agree.
16 MR. PULISELIC: Good morning, Your Honour.
17 Yesterday we were informed that Judge May was ill, and
18 we immediately made contact with the detention unit and
19 requested to see the accused Dragan Papic, and I have
20 to inform you that the accused Dragan Papic is opposed
21 to the witnesses being questioned before only two
22 Judges of the Chamber. These are very important
23 witnesses for him. These are fact witnesses, and they
24 will be speaking about incidents he had has been
25 charged with in the relevant times. So it is the
1 proposal of the Defence that these witnesses be not
2 heard before two Judges of the Chamber only.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Puliselic,
4 but before we make a ruling on this matter I would like
5 to explain to you how we see these proceedings covered
6 by Rule 71 depositions. When the trial is underway, in
7 practice what happens is that the Judge who is absent
8 because of serious impediments, after the taking of the
9 deposition by two officers, will go through the
10 transcript and normally he can watch a videotape with
11 the testimony given by the witness and will also watch
12 the examination-in-chief, cross-examination and so on.
13 So in a way, we don't see any huge difference
14 between the resort to this particular procedure, their
15 positions, and actual trial proceedings. There's no --
16 on the practical side -- legally speaking, of course,
17 there is a difference.
18 On the practical speaking there is no
19 difference whatsoever, because the Judge, by simply
20 reading carefully the transcript of all our
21 proceedings, plus watching the videotape, can make his
22 own conviction and can decide on the credibility of a
24 In light of that, do you still insist on your
25 opposition to the application of Rule 71?
1 I may add, before that, this also happened to
2 me last week. Remember, I was ill and only one witness
3 was heard under Rule 71, and I proceeded in that
4 manner. I can now form my own conviction about the
5 credibility of that witness by simply working
6 afterwards at home or here in office hours, in the
7 afternoon. So could you please let us know whether you
8 insist on your opposition?
9 MR. PULISELIC: Your Honour, Mr. President,
10 when you were ill the situation was different. We
11 agreed that witnesses be heard, witnesses relating to
12 general allegations, but these witnesses will be
13 speaking about some very specific circumstances, and
14 I'm simply conveying to you what the accused Dragan
15 Papic told me. He told his Defence counsel that he did
16 not wish witnesses to be heard before two Judges of the
17 Chamber only, and we hope that the illness of Judge May
18 is not serious and we do expect that he will soon be
19 available and here. So we would suggest that these
20 witnesses not be heard until that time, until the
21 Chamber is able to sit in full composition.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: We rule that in spite of the
23 opposition of the Defence counsel and the accused, Rule
24 71 is fully applicable because according to this Rule
25 the request of one party is sufficient, and we feel
1 that we are confronted with exceptional circumstances
2 and that the interests of justice command that a fair
3 and expeditious trial be held.
4 As I said before, since in any case the Judge
5 who is presently absent will be able fully to form his
6 own conviction, legal conviction and opinion, I think
7 there will be nothing which would jeopardise the rights
8 of the accused.
9 So we decide to proceed accordingly, and I
10 would be acting as a presiding officer, and we will,
11 therefore, under Rule 71(E), subsequently transmit the
12 record to the Trial Chamber in its full composition so
13 that Judge May will be in a position to appraise the
14 evidence and be fully familiar with it.
15 It is decided accordingly, and we may now
16 move on to the first witness to be examined-in-chief by
17 counsel Nika Pinter.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder if any protective
19 measures have been requested?
20 MS. PINTER: No.
21 (The witness entered court)
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Papic.
23 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: I would like to ask you to
25 make the solemn declaration, please.
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, you may be
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pinter?
8 WITNESS: PERO PAPIC
9 Examined by Ms. Pinter:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Papic. Would you please
11 introduce yourself to the Judges? You may remain
13 A. My name is Pero Papic. I was born on the
14 15th of June, 1965 in the village of Santici in Vitez,
15 the municipality of Vitez, the Republic of Bosnia and
17 Q. On the aerial photograph of Ahmici, could you
18 please point to your house?
19 A. May I stand up?
20 Q. Yes, you may, and you may take the pointer.
21 A. This is my house.
22 Q. Could you state other houses that are in your
23 village, and could you please speak slowly?
24 A. This is the house of my mother Marija Papic,
25 the house of Nakic, Mehmed Ahmic, the house of Ivo
1 Papic, the house of Nikica Milicevic, the house of
2 Rafael Milicevic, Alija Ahmic's house.
3 Q. Have you indicated all the houses?
4 A. (No audible response)
5 Q. You may sit down.
6 Mr. Papic, in the area around your house was
7 there a shelter, and if so, when?
8 A. Yes. There was a shelter in the basement of
9 my house, which was approximately 20 square metres
11 Q. When was it used as a shelter?
12 A. It was used sometime in mid 1992.
13 Q. Did all of your neighbours come to your
14 shelter? Yes, please.
15 A. The neighbours who lived in the immediate
16 vicinity used to come to our shelter but also people
17 who lived in the centre of the village.
18 Q. I will now ask several questions, but would
19 you please wait a little before you give your answer?
20 In the vicinity of your house, was there a
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who are the owners of the forest?
24 A. The owners of the forest are Anto Papic, Simo
25 Vidovic, Gavro Vidovic, Marko Papic and Ivo Papic.
1 Q. How is Ivo Papic related to you?
2 A. Ivo Papic is my uncle.
3 Q. Which means that Dragan Papic is your cousin?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. Did you participate in the village guards?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Could you describe for us a little bit what
8 it looked like?
9 A. We had organised ourselves, the residents of
10 the houses that lived in the vicinity of my house. We
11 organised the village guards on our own.
12 Q. Were there only Croats who participated in
13 the village guards or were there any Muslims maybe?
14 A. There were also Muslims as of mid 1992
16 Q. Was there any sort of command over the
17 village guards?
18 A. No. As I told you, we had organised
19 ourselves on our own.
20 Q. Were you armed?
21 A. Yes, we were. We were given some old rifles,
22 M-48 rifles.
23 Q. Who gave them to you?
24 A. The Territorial Defence.
25 Q. Who was the commander of the village guards
1 in Ahmici?
2 A. The Croats did not have a commander of the
3 village guards, and I don't know about Muslims.
4 Q. Did you stand guard with Muslims all the time
5 or did at one -- did you separate at one point?
6 A. Until the night of the 19th of October, 1992
7 we stood village guards together with Muslims.
8 Q. Could you describe for us the events that
9 took place on the 19th and the 20th, but slowly,
11 A. On the 19th of October, 1992, Fahran Ahmic
12 came to see us that night.
13 Q. Where were you that night?
14 A. That night I was on duty as part of our
15 regular village guard. Vidovic Vinko was with me,
16 Ivica Papic as well.
17 Q. Who is Papic Ivica?
18 A. Ivica Papic is my late brother.
19 Q. And where were you, please?
20 A. I was at my own home, in the vicinity of my
22 Q. While you were on guard, Fahrudin came?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What happened then?
25 A. Just before nightfall, Fahran came, and we
1 asked him, as we kept guard duty together, we asked him
2 why they wouldn't join us that night. He didn't give
3 us any answer; he simply turned around and went off
5 Q. Did you notice anything else while you were
6 on guard duty?
7 A. No, we simply felt some changes in the air.
8 This was the greatest change, because that night,
9 Fahran withdrew from our common guards, and Salim
10 Causevic said, "Am I going to stay with you, or should
11 I keep guard duty on my own?" We asked what he meant,
12 and we simply didn't understand, nor did we realise
13 that the situation was serious.
14 Q. While you were on guard duty, did you see
15 some people moving around the fence?
16 A. Yes, we did notice that, and that is why we
17 asked Fahran, but he gave us no answer. As far as we
18 knew, the most probable explanation was that he warned
19 them, and then we didn't see them again during the
21 Q. Did you warn anyone about seeing those
23 A. We didn't need to in our immediate vicinity.
24 We didn't think it was necessary, so we didn't warn
1 Q. And then what happened during the night and
2 in the morning?
3 A. We kept duty as usual. I was on duty. With
4 me were Rafael Milicevic, Ivica Papic, Vinko Vidovic.
5 Q. And before dawn, what happened?
6 A. Just before it dawned, about 4.45 a.m., I
7 can't tell you exactly what time it was, but roughly it
8 was about that time, very heavy gunfire was opened at
9 my house, coming from the fence which was about 20
10 metres away from my house, to the west of my house.
11 Q. What happened then?
12 A. This burst of fire came from several
13 weapons. There were some explosive devices which we
14 could not identify, most probably handmade devices.
15 Then some ten minutes later, the firing subsided. This
16 was about 5.00. When we heard the call from the
17 minaret of the mosque, first there was some music. We
18 couldn't explain it, we couldn't recognise it. Then
19 there was a speech, somebody saying "Croats,
20 surrender." Then in the central part of the village,
21 an explosion could be heard.
22 After that, I sought to save my family and my
23 houses. I had -- my wife and my child were in the
24 house, and my brother-in-law's -- my wife's brother's
25 child, who was between 6 and 7 at the time. When the
1 shooting subsided I ran into the house, because the
2 entrance to the house is on the northern side. There
3 are steps on both sides. I ran in from the west,
4 because of course I was afraid of further shooting. I
5 entered the house and the room that faces south-east.
6 This was my good fortune that it was positioned in that
7 way, because later on, we realised that my wife was
8 packing things into a sleeping bag, children's things
9 of my little girl.
10 Q. Did you manage to see the damage done to your
12 A. When my wife asked me to get some things from
13 the living room, I wasn't aware of what had happened.
14 I just saw that the door was broken in. But I never
15 realised the chaos that the living room would be in.
16 Even the dust hadn't settled, nor the smoke that was
17 still evident in the rooms. I was surprised; dust was
18 still floating around. I trod on broken glass. I
19 entered; I picked up the things as quickly as I could.
20 Q. What about the children?
21 A. When I passed these things on to my wife,
22 then we threw out a pillow first, through the western
23 side of the house, through the window. It isn't very
24 high; it is about 2 metres high. So we threw out a
25 pillow to help them land, to soften their fall.
1 Q. When you dropped the children down, what
2 happened then?
3 A. Then I went towards the main door, and there
4 was a thick fog, so visibility was very limited. It
5 was about 10 to 15 metres. I went out, and I told my
6 wife that she should run out too. I pushed her through
7 the back door, and then together with them, because we
8 were scared, we passed by my mother's house towards the
9 nearby wood.
10 Q. We'll come back to that later on, but let me
11 ask you first: Apart in your house, on the 20th of
12 October, which other houses were damaged, and were
13 other houses damaged?
14 A. Yes. The house of Mehmed Ahmic, known as
15 Sudjuka, his house was damaged; Drago Josipovic's
16 house, and the barn had burnt down. And another barn
17 near my house, owned by Alija Ahmic.
18 Q. Of course you are talking about the part of
19 the village where you lived, not about the whole area?
20 A. Yes, because I didn't know what had happened
22 Q. Tell us now, you mentioned Alija Ahmic's barn
23 that was on fire; who put the fire out on that barn?
24 A. We did. Me, my brother; Vinko helped us.
25 Q. And where was Alija?
1 A. They had left early in the morning. His
2 daughter and mother had left before that. We didn't
3 know that. They had left before, earlier on. And
4 immediately after the gunfire started, they probably
5 saw that they hadn't done what they were meant to do,
6 and they left.
7 Q. So the house was deserted and the barn was
9 A. We didn't manage to extinguish the fire in
10 the barn but only in part of the house that had caught
12 Q. When you took the children out of the house,
13 you and your wife, what did you do then?
14 A. All of us who were there, we consulted as to
15 what we should do next. We had sought refuge in the
16 small wood. We felt safe there, but we didn't know
17 what to do next. So we realised that the only
18 direction we could take would be southwards, towards
20 Q. And who went with you? Who did you lead?
21 A. At the time, Ankica managed to join us; my
22 mother, too, they live across the road, and her
24 Q. And where did you go to?
25 A. We went towards the wood.
1 Q. Could you show us with the pointer where this
3 A. Yes, I will. (Indicating).
4 Q. You may get up.
5 A. So we went across the centre of the wood. We
6 formed a group there. We gathered, and then we headed
7 towards -- in this direction. Dragan Papic went in
8 front of us with his wife.
9 Q. Did you follow them?
10 A. We knew who was in front and who was behind
11 us. And we could tell mostly by the voices.
12 Here, somebody just said "Stop, or I'll
13 shoot." Those of us behind, we just dropped to the
14 ground. We were scared, of course, and Dragan remained
15 in front of me, and we just heard a conversation. Some
16 words were exchanged; of course we couldn't decipher
17 what was being said. But roughly it was that nobody
18 would hurt us and that we could go on. Nenad Santic
19 was there. Nenad Santic. Dragan went ahead. He
20 crossed the embankment where the old railway line was.
21 I sent my wife and children, as I have already said. I
22 just told them to go on, without saying anything as to
23 where and when. I just said that they should cross the
24 river, over the Lasva River.
25 Q. If the visibility was so poor, how did you
1 know it was Nenad Santic?
2 A. By his voice, because we are close
4 Q. Did you see him coming?
5 A. Yes, I did see him.
6 Q. Could you tell us what the time was, roughly?
7 A. About 5.30.
8 Q. Do you know where Dragan Papic went from
9 there? Did you see him after that?
10 A. He went to Rovna. I didn't see him again
11 that day.
12 Q. Can you recollect, when was the road opened
13 to traffic?
14 A. Sometime in the afternoon, about 3.00 or 4.00
15 in the afternoon. I can't tell you exactly. Maybe
16 plus or minus one hour.
17 Q. On the 20th of October, did you know why the
18 shooting started?
19 A. On the 20th of October, I had no idea why
20 fire was opened.
21 Q. When did you learn the reason?
22 A. On the 21st of October.
23 Q. What did you learn?
24 A. On the 21st of October, I learned the details
25 and the purpose of that conflict.
1 Q. And what was the cause that provoked the
2 conflict? What happened near the cemetery?
3 A. I learned subsequently that a roadblock had
4 been put up that night we didn't know about it. A
5 roadblock had been set up for the Croatian army, the
6 HVO that was supposed to pass along the Busovaca/Vitez
7 road in the direction of Jajce to the front line.
8 Q. Did you go -- of course not on that day, but
9 later on -- to see what things looked like where the
10 roadblock was put up?
11 A. Yes, we did, because we were curious to see
12 what had happened.
13 Q. And what did you see?
14 A. We saw trenches which had been dug across the
15 road from the cemetery, and in the cemetery itself.
16 Q. You could see them dug out?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You said that you learnt the next day the
19 reason. Who did you talk to, and how did you learn the
20 causes and the reasons of that conflict? Could you
21 tell us about it?
22 A. The next day, on the 21st of October, Muris
23 Ahmic came along the road. We were just below my
24 mother's house.
25 Q. When you say "we," who do you mean?
1 A. Vinko, my brother Zoran at the time, Ivica
2 Papic, Rafael Milicevic.
3 Q. So you were standing?
4 A. Yes, we were standing there, and he asked
5 whether he could approach us. We said, "why not? Do,
6 come up, and let's see what this is all about."
7 He came up close to us. He had some big
8 boots on him. He was rather dirty. He approached us
9 and he started crying. We asked him why he was
10 crying. "Why did you do this to us?" He said that he
11 headed the operation. He told us the details of the
12 operation, what the aim of the operation was. He told
13 us as follows; "The aim of the operation, which I was
14 told to lead, I was given orders from the command, from
15 Muharem Sivro, the task, because he was meant to be the
16 leader but he passed it on to me. We were supposed to
17 chase out the Croats. We had permission to take
18 whatever we liked from the houses and then to set them
19 on fire so that the Croats could not come back. This
20 was the closest way for us to link up with others, to
21 intercept communication, to link up with Gornja Rovna
22 and Vranjska."
23 Q. And Muris Ahmic told you all this?
24 A. Yes. That was his statement. Then he
25 started apologising, what could we do, could we go
1 back. "We know nothing about that, whether you can
2 come back or not, but we can't tell you that you can't
3 either. It's up to you to decide."
4 Afterwards I learned that there was a meeting
5 between the Croats and the Muslim leaders. This is
6 from hearsay.
7 Q. Yes, but you yourself did not have any direct
9 A. No.
10 Q. In this conversation with Muris Ahmic, was
11 there any mention about the positions of the BH army
12 units? Do you recall that?
13 A. No, but we assumed. We knew roughly where
14 they were.
15 Q. How did you know, and where were they as far
16 as you knew?
17 A. We knew because the people who came that day,
18 we asked him where those men had come from, and they
19 were from Vrhovine and they were armed.
20 Q. So he told you that?
21 A. Yes, he did. That they were from Vrhovine,
22 and some were from Poculica and Preocica. He didn't go
23 into the details.
24 Q. Were they wearing camouflage uniforms?
25 A. Yes, they were.
1 Q. Were they armed?
2 A. Yes, they were.
3 Q. Tell us, in the actual fighting over the
4 roadblock near the cemetery, did the Croats from Ahmici
5 take part?
6 A. They couldn't participate because we didn't
7 know anything about it, so we couldn't take part. In
8 fact, we were shot at.
9 Q. In your mother's house or in your house was
10 any kind of material kept, boxes of ammunition or
11 anything like that? Was there any kind of -- were any
12 kind of weapons stored in your house or your mother's
14 A. No, not at all.
15 Q. Do you know Fahrudin Ahmic?
16 A. Yes, I do. He's my very close neighbour.
17 Q. What were relations like?
18 A. We were good neighbours.
19 Q. Could you be more specific?
20 A. Yes. We assisted one another. He had just
21 started to build his house. Actually, at the time it
22 had already been completed, but we helped him build
24 His immediate next door neighbour, Alija
25 Ahmic, would not let him connect to the electricity
1 supply in his house, so we allowed him to do it, to
2 connect to my mother's house. Then also he connected
3 to the water supply system to our house, though it
4 wasn't intended for use by more users, but we allowed
5 him to use it.
6 And we exchanged visits. He would visit us,
7 we would visit them. This was quite customary amongst
9 Q. Tell us, on the 20th of October did all the
10 Muslims leave Ahmici?
11 A. I couldn't know that.
12 Q. But could you tell us about your
14 A. Yes. We do know that all of them left, the
15 people on the other side of the road.
16 Q. When did they come back?
17 A. They started coming back when the Croats
18 called them to come back.
19 Q. Was this a month or two later?
20 A. No, no, two days later. Around the 22nd
21 already they started coming back en masse.
22 Q. Did anyone enter the Muslim homes when they
23 abandoned them? Do you know that?
24 A. No, not one -- none of us went into those
25 houses, because that was the way we were brought up,
1 that in such a situation we shouldn't take advantage of
2 such things.
3 Q. So they were not looted?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the second
6 conflict that occurred between the Muslims and the
7 Croats in Ahmici, any personal knowledge?
8 A. I have no personal knowledge, only what I
9 heard later on from others.
10 Q. In April 1993, were you in Ahmici?
11 A. I didn't understand the question.
12 Q. I beg your pardon. Where was your family?
13 A. In what period?
14 Q. In April 1993.
15 A. In April you mean?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I had a car accident on the 10th of February,
18 1993, so that my family was with me in Busovaca when I
19 was released from hospital.
20 Q. So you were nowhere near Ahmici?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So on the 15th of April you didn't come to
23 pick up your wife in Ahmici?
24 A. No, I didn't, because she was with me.
25 Q. Before you had that car accident you lived in
1 Ahmici, until February 1993, didn't you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In that period did you socialise with Dragan?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you have frequent contacts?
6 A. Yes. I can't remember exactly how often we
7 met but frequently.
8 Q. Was his appearance the same as it is now?
9 A. No. He had a much bigger beard.
10 Q. What were the comments regarding his beard?
11 A. We all said that he should shave it off
12 because of the situation, the attacks by the army and
13 so on.
14 Q. So he wore a bigger beard than he has now?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you recall, where was Dragan working?
17 What was his job?
18 A. Dragan was working in the Sumarija, the
19 forestry company of Vitez.
20 Q. How did he go to work? Was he wearing
21 civilian clothes or a uniform? What kind of uniform
22 did he have? How was he dressed usually?
23 A. As for the details of his dress, I'm not an
24 expert. It's very hard for me to say that, because
25 this is not something that I notice very much on
1 people, but I know that he used to wear a uniform from
2 time to time. He did not participate in the village
3 guards so much because he was engaged elsewhere. He
4 couldn't be in two places at the same time.
5 Q. Did he carry a rifle?
6 A. Yes, sometimes he carried a rifle.
7 Q. What was he doing in his spare time?
8 A. In his spare time Dragan repaired cars, and
9 he was also very good at repairing electrical devices
10 in cars, which was not very ordinary because he was not
11 an expert for that.
12 Q. Did he distinguish amongst people whose cars
13 he repaired?
14 A. No. He repaired cars of everyone, Croats and
15 Muslims alike.
16 Q. Since you socialised with him, did you ever
17 hear any nationalistic comments from him? Was he only
18 in favour of the Croatian cause? Was he against Serbs
19 and Muslims, other ethnic groups?
20 A. No. He never expressed himself in that way
21 because he's a very good man.
22 Q. Was he any kind of political -- was he
23 politically involved in Ahmici in any way?
24 A. No. He didn't like politics very much. He
25 only likes cars.
1 Q. While you lived in Ahmici until February
2 1993, throughout that period did Dragan train Croatian
4 A. Train Croatian soldiers? No. How could
5 Dragan possibly do that?
6 Q. Was he in charge of any political gatherings
7 or political meetings?
8 A. No. This was not something that he was
9 interested in.
10 Q. The family of Dragan Papic, the family of
11 your uncle, was there any member from that family who
12 showed any signs of nationalistic orientation, who made
13 any differences amongst people on the basis their
15 A. No. We never felt that in any way in the
16 entire family of ours, I mean, all of us. We didn't
17 make any differences. We didn't notice anything in
18 that regard.
19 Q. How much do you know about the mosque and the
20 way it was built?
21 A. I know quite a few things about that.
22 Q. Could you -- could you describe that for us a
23 little bit? And I'm referring to the lower mosque.
24 A. Yes, I will.
25 Q. Do you know who the contractor was? Did your
1 neighbours help build the mosque?
2 A. Well, yes. There was this man whom we called
3 Hadzija. He was the main donor for that purpose, and
4 he was in charge of building the mosque. We all gave
5 something at the very beginning when the foundations
6 were being laid. We all made our contribution. It's a
7 custom in our village and everybody did that.
8 Q. Did you also work there?
9 A. Yes. When the mosque was finished, when the
10 construction of the mosque was finished, my uncle did
11 some plumbing work and I also helped, myself.
12 Q. Did you charge them for that?
13 A. No, it was not normally charged. We never
14 charged our services for that purpose.
15 Q. So your uncle didn't ask for any payment?
16 A. No. No. I know that for sure.
17 Q. Do you have any knowledge of Dragan helping
18 his father during his free time?
19 A. Yes. Whenever he had free time he would help
20 his father. When there was a lot of work to do he
21 tried to help him as much as he could.
22 Q. What were your activities in 1992-1993,
23 before your accident?
24 A. I'm an electrical engineer, and I also worked
25 in the field of electronics. I repaired TV sets, radio
1 sets and so on.
2 Q. Did you repair appliances of all people in
3 your village?
4 A. Yes. I would go to Muslim houses, Croat
5 houses alike. This was my job ever since 1984.
6 Q. Did you know Mehmed Ahmic Sudzuka well?
7 A. Yes, I know him very well.
8 Q. He was your neighbour?
9 A. Yes, he was.
10 Q. In your neighbourhood did Sudzuka have a
11 close relative of his?
12 A. Yes. He had some close family there, Alija's
13 sons, for example.
14 Q. What are their names?
15 A. Abdulah Ahmic, Munir Ahmic, Muris Ahmic.
16 Q. Thank you. That means that Abdulah Ahmic and
17 Mehmed Ahmic are related in the same way as you and
18 Dragan are related?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. What was Mehmed Ahmic doing? What was his
22 A. He was involved in politics, and he had a
23 shop in his house.
24 Q. Do you know whether he belonged to any
25 political party?
1 A. He was a member of the SDA party.
2 Q. What did you think of him, and do you know
3 what other people thought of him and what were your
4 relations with him?
5 A. Yes, I knew what people thought about him.
6 People didn't really like him, Croats and Muslims
7 alike, because he had debts to many people, something
8 having to do with the construction of his new house.
9 Q. Could you tell us what the distance is
10 between your house and the house of Mehmed Ahmic? You
11 don't need to be very precise.
12 A. You mean between my house?
13 Q. Yes, between your husband and the house of
14 Mehmed Ahmic?
15 A. Well, approximately 100 metres.
16 Q. And what would be the distance between the
17 house of Mehmed Ahmic and the wood we discussed earlier
19 A. About 150 metres.
20 MS. PINTER: Can I ask the assistance of the
21 usher, please?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D26/5.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel,
25 A. This is a document from the land registry of
1 the Vitez municipality.
2 MS. PINTER:
3 Q. Who normally issues such documents?
4 A. Such a document would normally be issued by
5 land registry.
6 Q. Can you see the entire house of yours on this
8 A. Yes. The whole house is here.
9 Q. What about the wood?
10 A. The wood is not here, not all of it.
11 MS. PINTER: Can I again have the assistance
12 of the usher, please?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document D27/5.
14 MS. PINTER:
15 Q. Have you had a look at it? This is something
16 that -- it's called the area situation. Can you see
17 this document? On this document you can see the
18 distances between facilities. Can you see that?
19 A. Yes, I can.
20 Q. Do you think that that realistically depicts
21 a situation on the ground? Do these distances
22 correspond to the distances between Mehmed Ahmic's
23 house, the edge of the wood and so on?
24 A. I don't think that everything is here. This
25 portion, for example, this portion of the wood is
1 missing from the plan, so the distance is even greater
2 now. Well, I don't know about the period then.
3 Q. Yes, but the distance between the house and
4 the edge of the wood from the left side or from the
5 right side?
6 A. Yes, that is okay. It was next to the edge
7 of the wood.
8 Q. Thank you. Let us move back to the month of
9 October 1992, the 20th of October, to be more precise.
10 On that day, from the wood behind your house,
11 from any part of the wood, did anyone shoot at the
12 house of Mehmed Ahmic from any kind of weapon?
13 A. To the best my knowledge nobody shot from
14 that area, because I spent most of that day in the
15 middle of the wood because I was afraid.
16 Q. On that day and on subsequent days, near the
17 house of your mother and near the house of Ivo Papic,
18 in the direction of the house of Ljubica Milicevic, was
19 there ever a PAT or a PAM weapon that was sited there?
20 A. No, it was never there. It was impossible to
21 site that weapon in that area because of the number of
22 small children in the area.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's
24 microphone be switched on, please?
25 Q. So you are sure that on the 20th of October,
1 nobody opened fire from the wood on the house of
3 A. No. From our wood, nobody opened fire on the
4 house of Sudjuka.
5 Q. Was Dragan with you in the wood?
6 A. No. Dragan was absent throughout that day,
7 the 20th of October, and later on I heard he had spent
8 the whole day in Rovna.
9 Q. Do you have any knowledge about weapons in
11 A. Yes, I can recognise most types.
12 Q. The PAT and the PAM, what kind of weapons are
13 they, the anti-aircraft weapons? Are they long-range
15 A. Yes, they are.
16 Q. We have seen that the distance was 150
17 metres, approximately. Is that a long distance for
18 that type of weapon? Is it efficient on that distance?
19 A. One cannot adequately position that kind of
20 weapon this kind of distance. This is simply too close
21 for it, and it's not possible.
22 Q. The house of Mehmed Ahmic you said was
23 damaged, at the beginning, it was damaged during the
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. According to your knowledge, what caused the
2 damage on the house? Do you have any knowledge of
4 A. Well, at one point we realised that the house
5 was damaged, that the roof of the house was damaged.
6 Q. What caused the damage of the roof?
7 A. It was caused by some kind of impact.
8 Q. Did you see that?
9 A. No, we couldn't see that. We simply heard
10 that. And after that the house caught fire, and
11 because of the way it was built, because of the
12 construction of the house and the number of beams and
13 lumber, it caught fire very quickly.
14 Q. This is what you learned later on?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. So according to your opinion, the house was
17 probably hit in the roof area?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you ever see Dragan carry or fire from a
20 sniper rifle?
21 A. No, I don't think that he ever owned a sniper
22 rifle, and I never saw him with one.
23 Q. Did you see him or did you hear any
24 complaints about his intimidating Muslims?
25 A. In view of his character, I don't think that
1 Dragan would ever intimidate anyone or verbally abuse
2 anyone, and I never heard any stories like that.
3 Q. Who lived in the house of Ivo Papic?
4 A. Ivo Papic; Dragica Papic; Ivanka Papic,
5 Dragan's sister; Goran Papic; and Dragan Papic.
6 Q. Do you know when Dragan's wife gave birth to
8 A. I know that it happened in late April 1993.
9 Q. When did you see Dragan in that time, for the
10 first time?
11 A. It was in mid-1993, or even later.
12 Q. Let us go back to your neighbours. You said
13 that Abdulah Ahmic and Mehmed Ahmic were cousins?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What about Muris Ahmic? Is he in any way
16 related to Abdulah Ahmic and Mehmed Ahmic?
17 A. Muris is Abdulah's brother.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. PINTER: Your Honours, this concludes my
20 examination of this witness, and I would like to tender
21 into evidence D26/5 and D27/5.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
23 No objection? They are admitted into
25 I will turn now to Counsel Pavkovic to ask
1 whether there is any Defence counsel prepared to
2 cross-examine this witness.
3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
4 Mr. Luka Susak has some questions for this witness.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
6 Counsel Susak?
7 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I will
8 try to be as brief as possible.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:
10 Q. Witness, you said the village guards had been
11 established, and you also told us that there had been
12 no commander of such village guards; but was there a
13 person who was in charge of scheduling and assigning
14 people to village guards?
15 A. We organised ourselves on our own, and
16 sometimes we would say, "Well, today I'm in charge of
17 assigning people." But it was almost like a joke; we
18 didn't have a real command at all.
19 Q. I'm not asking you about command; I would
20 just like to know whether anyone was in charge of
21 recording who went where.
22 A. We did not have any kind of register like
24 Q. Do you know Slavko Milicevic?
25 A. Yes, I know him.
1 Q. Was he a member of the village guard?
2 A. No, he wasn't.
3 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have
4 no further questions.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much, Counsel
7 We may start with the cross-examination of --
8 Mr. Blaxill, would you prefer to take a break now, and
9 then we start in 30 minutes?
10 MR. BLAXILL: Well, I'm entirely in Your
11 Honour's hands, but if you care to take the break now,
12 I would be quite content with that, and we can get
13 started afresh then.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, all right. So we will
15 take a 30-minute break now.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
17 --- Upon resuming at 10.55 a.m.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill?
19 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 I think it might be appropriate at this point
21 if I refer Your Honours to the book from which extracts
22 were used in the last hearing, and you required that we
23 should have this book in its entirety ready for
24 service. It has been served this morning on all
25 Defence counsel. Copies have been made available and
1 ready for the use of yourselves, Your Honours, and the
2 only thing is we don't have a number for it yet. So
3 perhaps if a number could be assigned, that will assist
4 us in future cross-examinations.
5 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be 353.
6 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Prosecution Exhibit.
8 MR. BLAXILL: I wonder, then, if that
9 exhibit, please, could be shown to the witness. But at
10 page 99, 15 lines up from the bottom, that is the only
11 reference I shall be making to this document.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
13 Q. Mr. Papic, good morning to you, sir. My name
14 is Michael Blaxill. I am one of the prosecutors
15 assigned to this case. I do have a few questions to
16 ask as a result of your evidence this morning, but the
17 first thing I will ask you is: Have you served any
18 time served in the HVO?
19 A. I have.
20 Q. If you look at an entry 15 lines from the
21 bottom of that page numbered 99, does that reference in
22 fact refer to yourself?
23 A. Yes. Yes, it does.
24 Q. And is that your signature to the right-hand
25 side in the last-but-one column?
1 A. It is, yes.
2 Q. Mr. Papic, I would ask you, if you would, to
3 indicate why it is at that particular time you served
4 from the 8th of April, 1992, until October the 1st of
5 1992, and that appears to be the end of your official
6 HVO service. Is that correct?
7 A. No. I didn't spend this whole period in the
8 HVO. I didn't join the HVO in April as a soldier.
9 Q. Well, the entry for the 8th of April, you
10 have signed for the details in that form. It does say
11 the 8th of April of that year is your start date and
12 the 1st of October is your finish date. Are you saying
13 that those dates are not accurate?
14 A. I'm not saying that the dates are not
15 accurate, but simply I know that I wasn't in the army
16 in that period. For instance, in April, I wasn't in
17 the army. But it's written here as if I had been.
18 I don't know how to put it. This is a
19 written document, maybe for the benefit of shares or
20 for some other reason this date is indicated. I don't
21 know why this date has been written down here.
22 Q. So were you in fact, though, a serving HVO
23 member, let us say, at the date of the 30th of
24 September, 1992? In other words, the day before you
25 appear to have had your service finished, according to
1 the book. Were you actually in the HVO then?
2 A. But which year?
3 Q. 1992.
4 A. No, not officially, as a professional
5 soldier. I was still not a professional soldier.
6 Q. Does that mean you were some form of reserve
8 A. Yes, I was in the reserve, yes.
9 Q. Again, though, it does seem perhaps a little
10 strange that at October '92, things being as they were,
11 that you appear then to have ceased service. Is that
12 so, or in fact is that date wrong?
13 A. No, my service didn't cease then. I started
14 officially in May or June in 1993. I don't know
15 exactly when I joined as a professional soldier.
16 Q. So you can't really explain why those
17 particular two dates have been applied to you in that
18 form, in that document?
19 A. This period until April, I think that is why,
20 because until April 1992, I was still working in my
21 enterprise, my company. And then they told us simply
22 not to come to work any more, and so I stopped
23 working. Perhaps they wanted to link up this period so
24 that there would be no interruption in my years of
25 service; maybe that is why they linked up these dates.
1 Q. Did anybody explain that to you when you, in
2 fact, signed alongside this information, when you
3 placed your signature there?
4 A. Only now do I see that one really has to read
5 carefully something that you sign. They didn't explain
6 it well to us at all. They said that they would be
7 linking our work service with our military service.
8 Q. Thank you. So you say that during 1992 you
9 were serving in the village guard. That is right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And for a portion of the year that was a
12 joint guard with Muslim neighbours?
13 A. Yes, it was joint guard with the Muslims
14 until the 19th of October, '92.
15 Q. You've indicated that the weapons you were
16 supplied with came from the local TO, is that correct,
17 the Territorial Defence?
18 A. Yes, that is correct. They gave the
20 Q. Did you not have anybody who at least acted
21 as a kind of coordinator or person to help run the
22 village guard and issue instructions to the various
23 groups who were patrolling?
24 A. There was no coordination at all. We
25 organised ourselves and we assigned the shifts. May I
2 Q. Please do.
3 A. Since the shelling started, because we were
4 told that we had to self-organise ourselves, and this
5 was announced over the public media. They simply
6 announced that because of the danger of sabotage groups
7 and air raids, to save the women and children.
8 Q. Therefore, performing those guard duties who
9 did you believe that you were guarding the civilians
10 from? Who was the enemy at that time?
11 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.
12 Q. Would it be true to say that, in fact, that
13 then became essentially the forces of the Serbs, the
14 Bosnian Serb forces? Would than right?
15 A. Yes, the Bosnian Serbs together with the
16 Yugoslav People's Army.
17 Q. So as far as you were concerned as a member
18 of the village guard, that was the focus of your
19 attention, it was the -- what has been described as the
20 Serb aggression. There were no problems with your
21 Muslim neighbours at that time?
22 A. No. We didn't have any problems with our
23 Muslim neighbours, and that is why we kept guard duty
24 together. As we didn't have sufficient number of
25 weapons, we would pass on the weapons on to our
1 neighbours. For example, I gave my gun to my neighbour
2 Fakan because he didn't have one at the time, or at
3 least he pretended he didn't have one.
4 Q. So when you were performing that guard duty
5 did you have at least any contact with any other units
6 of guards, or did you have contact with any form of
7 headquarters place to report anything that might
9 A. Most frequently we were divided into small
10 groups, and it was easiest to organise the shifts and
11 for us to co-operate amongst ourselves, because we had
12 our own tasks. In the event of an air raid, we would
13 want families to go to the shelters because we feared
14 air raids most.
15 Q. Did you have any form of communications,
16 however, in case your community was attacked, that you
17 could summon some help or you could report what was
18 happening? Did you have any lines of communication for
20 A. There were telephone lines, but we could, for
21 instance, call the civilian police if we needed them.
22 Q. Did you know Mr. Nenad Santic at that time?
23 A. Yes, I did know him.
24 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Nenad Santic became a
25 member of the HVO and was very much involved in the
1 organisation of HVO and indeed of the village guards in
2 the overall area of Ahmici, particularly Santici?
3 A. I didn't quite understand your question.
4 Q. Were you aware of any role performed by
5 Mr. Nenad Santic in organising or controlling village
6 guards and/or HVO personnel in and around
7 Santici-Ahmici area?
8 A. Nenad Santic, in another area, in the area of
9 Zume, for instance, this is another part that is
10 divided by a kind of veil, and so we didn't have much
12 Q. Now, if I may move on then to the date the
13 19th of October of 1992. You made mention of being on
14 guard and that you saw some people moving by a fence.
15 Can you be a bit more explicit as to what you mean by
16 people moving by a fence and where was the fence?
17 A. It wasn't a fence, it was a hedge, like a
18 hedge. It was in parts quite high and in other parts
19 it was low, and they passed north of that hedge, 10, 15
20 metres behind the hedge towards the west, and they
21 passed along that path. There was a large group of
22 uniformed men. It was just before dark fell, so we
23 couldn't see them well, but one did wonder what so many
24 soldiers were doing there at that time.
25 When I said -- I said to Fahran, "Why won't
1 you keep watch duty with us?" After that we couldn't
2 see the soldiers any more.
3 Q. So is it correct to say that you cannot say
4 whether those soldiers were, in fact, HVO personnel, or
5 whether they were ABiH personnel or a group of village
6 guards wearing combat kit? I mean, you cannot tell the
8 A. I can tell the difference.
9 Q. You said it was very dark -- it was getting
10 dark and that you couldn't really tell who they were.
11 A. Can I explain?
12 Q. Please do.
13 A. I could tell, because we were together with
14 the Muslims keeping village guards, and this was not
15 customary movement, because this is a field owned by
16 Muslims and it was never used to go around houses,
17 because if you went up to a house you would use the
18 main road. So we were already suspicious at seeing
19 them crossing the fields rather than taking paths.
20 Q. But I put it again to you, Mr. Papic, that
21 you are not able for certainty to say whether they were
22 troops from the ABiH or whether they were from the
23 HVO. You couldn't make it out clearly enough. That's
24 correct, isn't it?
25 A. But we could intimate. We could assume that
1 they were Muslims, that they were Muslim troops,
2 because it was not customary. But we were not
3 disturbed by that so much that night.
4 Q. Indeed. You said you had no reason to
5 suspect problems with the Muslims at that time, and I'm
6 suggesting that what you're saying now is just
7 speculating after the event and suggesting that these
8 people were necessarily Muslim soldiers.
9 Mr. Papic, the following morning, the 20th of
10 October of 1992, you say there was firing very early
11 on, so you endeavoured to get your family away from
12 your home and you did so and went into the woods, I
13 believe to the south of your property. Is that so,
15 A. Southeast from my house we headed to the
17 Q. When you were in the woods you -- did you
18 send your family on to seek shelter elsewhere?
19 A. Yes, I did send my family away to seek
20 shelter, because that was the only direction they could
21 go along to safety.
22 Q. I believe that was the direction, was it, of
23 Donja Rovna?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I believe you said, sir, also that your
1 cousin Mr. Dragan Papic went in that same direction
2 with his family -- or lady members of his family; is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you advise me, sir, why you, therefore,
6 remained in the woods? Why didn't you go and seek
7 shelter with your family, follow your cousin?
8 A. Because my house was exposed to direct
9 gunfire, and I thought they would shoot again so I
10 wanted to see what was happening. In the meantime, my
11 mother and younger brother had stayed behind, and I
12 wanted to go back to see what had happened to them.
13 That was one of the reasons.
14 Q. Were there other male Croats in the woods
15 with you at that time whose families had gone on and
16 they were, just young men of military age in the woods?
17 A. Yes. There was Goran Papic, Rafael
18 Milicevic, Ivica Papic. I can't recall any others.
19 Q. Were any of you armed at that time?
20 A. Amongst us? I had a M-48 rifle, and I think
21 there was another M-48 rifle but I don't know who had
23 Q. I would advise you we've heard in this very
24 Chamber from Mr. Mehmed Ahmic. You know him, you've
25 mentioned him. He referred to a number of people he
1 saw in the woods who were using weapons, and there were
2 a number of people he saw, and your name is amongst
3 them; "Pero Papic, Slavko and Rafael Milicevic and a
4 few other people. I didn't recognise the others. They
5 were all my neighbours."
6 So Mr. Ahmic was correct, sir, when he said
7 that he would have seen you in the woods in company
8 with some of these other people and indeed some of you
9 armed. So he was correct in that description, would
10 that be so?
11 A. I can immediately negate that because -- if
12 he mentioned Slavko Milicevic. Slavko Milicevic wasn't
13 in the house that day at all. He may have been
14 guessing who was in the woods. Slavko Milicevic was in
15 Split on that day.
16 Q. But he certainly refers to yourself and
17 Rafael Milicevic and, of course, at that point early in
18 the day Mr. Dragan Papic, all having been in the wood
19 and you say that that is so. Now --
20 A. Dragan Papic was not in the wood at all.
21 Q. Well, he had gone on through the woods to
22 take his wife and family to shelter, I believe.
23 A. He passed through the woods but very early
24 on. Mehmed couldn't have seen that.
25 Q. Are you aware of what Mr. Dragan Papic did
1 for the rest of that day?
2 A. Until the end of that day I don't know at all
3 what he did, I just know that he left, and then
4 afterwards there were stories but I can't testify to
6 Q. You are aware, are you, that your cousin,
7 Mr. Dragan Papic, was a former JNA soldier doing his
8 national service; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you aware of any special skills he
11 acquired during his JNA service like the ability to use
12 a mortar?
13 A. I'm not aware of that, because we didn't
14 discuss national service very much at all amongst us.
15 Q. If I suggest to you, sir, something we've
16 heard in this Chamber to the effect that Mr. Dragan
17 Papic spent a good proportion of the day armed with a
18 mortar in the region of Donja Rovna, would you -- would
19 that come as a surprise to you, or is that something
20 you have subsequently heard took place?
21 A. I heard that three or four days later, but
22 people keep making things up.
23 Q. Sir, you say that later on, after this
24 initial firing that occurred on the 20th of October,
25 there was a call upon Croats to surrender, and then was
1 there some more firing after that?
2 A. After the conflict do you mean?
3 Q. After the call you say came from the minaret,
4 did you hear -- was there any more shooting? Did
5 anything more happen?
6 A. Yes, yes, there was more shooting but it was
7 not for very long. It was of lesser intensity.
8 Q. Eventually that shooting came to an end. And
9 had you remained in the woods throughout the whole
11 A. Yes, throughout that period. That was the
12 only shelter we had, so our movement was limited to the
13 woods. Even the HVO army that was passing fired
14 directly at us into the woods. We were afraid. We
15 didn't know it was them. We thought it was the Muslims
16 that were about to surround us. They were coming from
17 the eastern side. The fire from coming from the east.
18 Q. So in point of fact, you're saying that you
19 even came under fire from some HVO people at that time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So we've heard description that the cause of
22 the conflict on the 20th of October was essentially a
23 road checkpoint set up by Muslim forces near the
24 cemetery, and that passed -- an HVO force trying to get
25 to Jajce to fight in the lines was stopped. Does that
1 description agree with your memory of what you were
3 A. That is what I learned subsequently. I
4 learned that later. Maybe it was the 22nd when I
5 learned why the conflict had erupted.
6 At first I thought that the only -- their
7 only goal was to attack us, our houses.
8 Q. But the reality of it is that the violence
9 that occurred was when the HVO attacked that roadblock
10 to try and get it removed, and that's what the outbreak
11 of violence between the two forces was all about, isn't
12 at that correct, sir?
13 A. No. I think not, because the first shots, I
14 think, were fired at my house, according to what I
15 learned later on in the next few days. The first shots
16 were fired at my house, a burst of fire.
17 Q. You were unable, I presume, sir, to see who
18 fired those shots?
19 A. No, I couldn't see because there was a thick
21 Q. So we have foggy conditions. We have clearly
22 what ended up in a forcible attack by the HVO to remove
23 the roadblock, and, therefore, we can't be sure where
24 those shots came from that first you say hit your
1 A. I beg your pardon? It wasn't an HVO attack,
2 it was an attack by the Muslims forces.
3 Q. Yet prior to the outbreak of shooting, if I
4 understand you correctly, the only thing that showed
5 the presence of Muslim forces was the fact that they
6 had set up a checkpoint, which is a different thing,
7 wouldn't you agree, not an attack?
8 A. May I stand up and show you the difference on
9 the map in terms of area, so that I can show you the
10 distance between the two?
11 (Indicating) This is the hedge here, you see,
12 and there were large groups of Muslim forces here, and
13 the roadblock was here near the cemetery. There were
14 trenches there, and there were also trenches in this
15 part of the cemetery here, in the very corner. And
16 here there's a large concrete fence, so they already
17 had a man-made shelter.
18 Later I learned they put up the barricades,
19 and I went to see later on what had happened, because I
20 was interested. I was curious. It's quite far.
21 In my view, the aim was to attack these seven
22 Croat houses because they wanted to eliminate us from
23 there. They wanted to strategically link this part of
24 territory and to cut across the bridge. We learned
25 that later. They told us themselves that that was
1 their goal, to link up with the Muslim parts of Gornja
2 Rovna, Vranjska, and again Muslim settlements here.
3 That was the closest way to link up their forces and
5 Q. I presume you were not serving in the
6 military at the time, so with respect, isn't this just
7 your subsequent speculation about what people must
8 have --
9 A. It is my opinion, yes, my opinion.
10 Q. Now, in the course of your evidence, you said
11 that on that day, the 20th of October, Muslims were
12 leaving the Ahmici area, is that correct, as well as
14 A. Yes, it is correct. The Muslims left the
15 lower part, as far as I know. As for the upper part of
16 Ahmici, I couldn't know about that.
17 Q. You have said that they started to return to
18 their homes when they were in fact called by Croat
19 neighbours and invited to come back?
20 A. Yes, the Croats invited them on the 21st,
21 immediately, to come back.
22 Q. If the events in that day had been action by
23 the ABiH, the Muslim forces, to secure territory or to
24 clear out Croats, does that not seem inconsistent with
25 the fact that Muslims then left the area, and it was
1 the Croats who were inviting them back to their
2 houses? That does seem an inconsistent pair of
4 A. Well, let me see; there is a contradiction.
5 Their abortive attack caused them to retreat from that
6 area, and troops came from outside that were meant to
7 cause a dispute between good neighbours. This is what
8 we learned later on. We were also surprised that
9 heading that operation was Muris Ahmic, who was one of
10 my closest neighbours.
11 Q. Do you recall, sir, what actually happened to
12 Mr. Muris Ahmic? Is he still alive? Is he still
14 A. I know, because I learned later on what
15 happened, and I know that he's not alive. But what
16 actually happened to him, I don't know.
17 Q. When the Muslims started to return to that
18 village, did you know anything about the terms in which
19 they would do so, or any agreements reached between
20 Muslims and Croats as to the sort of conditions that
21 would prevail between them?
22 A. No, all I know is what I heard on the media,
23 rather on the radio. I know that the Croats invited
24 them. I know that from media reports. As for any
25 personal knowledge, I couldn't have any. I couldn't
1 deal with whether people would come back or not. I had
2 no decision-making powers.
3 Q. I believe you've said, Mr. Papic, that you
4 had some form of accident in -- was it February of
6 A. Yes, in October, 1993, I had a car accident.
7 The car I had at the time was a Zastava 750 -- sorry,
8 not October; it was in February.
9 Q. Now, if I may ask, sir, how badly injured
10 were you in that car accident? I believe you did have
11 to go to hospital; is that right?
12 A. Yes. It was a very serious accident. I
13 spent four days in the hospital in Travnik. I had an
14 arm fracture, I had an interior haemorrhage, and they
15 told me that my heart was also injured, and I had to
16 rest for about 20 days. I'm not an expert in medicine,
17 but anyhow, I spent four days in hospital in Travnik.
18 After that, I was transferred; due to the
19 shelling that came from Vlasic Mount, I was transferred
20 somewhere else because they didn't want to risk any
21 further problems. So I was transferred to the hospital
22 in Nova Bila.
23 Q. When were you able to return home after your
24 hospital treatment?
25 A. I returned home on the 3rd of -- on the 3rd
1 of March, 1993.
2 Q. I presume, sir, did you stay home
3 recuperating from your injuries for the weeks that
4 followed that?
5 A. I still had splints on my leg. I had a
6 bandage on my arm which I had to carry for a while. I
7 stayed at home for about ten days, and then my sister
8 suggested that I should come to her house in Busovaca,
9 because my wife was having a difficult time because I
10 couldn't move. So she suggested that we came to her
11 place in Busovaca. So we went there, and I don't know
12 exactly when it happened, but it may have been around
13 the 14th or the 15th.
14 Q. Of March; is that correct? 14th or 15th of
16 A. Yes, of March.
17 Q. And so if we go one month later, to the 15th
18 and 16th of April, I believe you did say that you were
19 still in Busovaca at that time?
20 A. Yes. I was in Busovaca.
21 Q. In fact, just for the record, if I could ask
22 you: Can you tell me what the exact date of your car
23 accident was, the date in February?
24 A. Yes, of course. On the 10th of February.
25 Q. Now --
1 A. Do you need the exact time of the accident?
2 Q. If you recall the time, yes.
3 A. At 3 p.m.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 So obviously you had no personal experience
6 of the events in Ahmici on the 16th of April, 1993?
7 That would be correct to say?
8 A. No, I don't have any personal experience.
9 Q. You of course were a cousin of Mr. Dragan
10 Papic and have described that he was a forester and
11 from time to time would wear a uniform. Could you
12 describe what types of uniform he would wear at
13 different times?
14 A. Most frequently he would wear only one part
15 of the uniform, the upper part of the uniform, and he
16 would wear the normal trousers. He didn't have any
17 special trousers, any special clothes.
18 Q. What colour was the upper part uniform he
19 would wear?
20 A. Greenish. Green and grey.
21 Q. Would that be described as a camouflage
22 uniform, or is the camouflage a different type of
24 A. Well, you can describe it as a camouflage
25 uniform, yes.
1 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Papic wearing or in
2 possession of a black uniform, or part of uniform?
3 A. I only know that he had a blue vest.
4 Q. Blue can be many things: Can you say how
5 dark or how light that blue was?
6 A. Dark blue, yes. Dark blue.
7 Q. Now, you've described Mr. Papic as one who
8 did not come out with political comments or
9 particularly nationalist comments. I think, to quote
10 you, he only liked motor cars, not politics.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. However, as relations with the Muslims
13 deteriorated in the early part of 1993, was there any
14 change in attitude on the part of Mr. Dragan Papic, if
15 only to be more protective towards Croats, or something
16 like that?
17 A. Well, of course, we all changed in that
18 period. The population as a whole changed. People no
19 longer trusted one another.
20 Q. So, true to say that a political situation
21 like that in fact you say produced a change in
22 everybody; you couldn't avoid changing, perhaps. Yeah?
23 A. Yes. I mean, everybody. It's very difficult
24 not to change in such a period.
25 Q. I believe at the time it was customary that
1 particularly on religious holidays or something like
2 that that national flags would be flown on people's
3 homes. If it was a Muslim holiday, the Muslims, and
4 Croats, it would be on the Croat holiday. Would that
5 be correct?
6 A. Yes. Yes. That's correct.
7 Q. Is it true, therefore, that the house of Ivo
8 Papic, the flags would fly on the appropriate festive
9 days, just like any other Croat family celebrating such
10 an event?
11 A. Yes, a Croat flag was flown.
12 Q. Do you recall that at times when the tensions
13 had grown greater between the communities, that the
14 Croat flag in fact remained longer on the Papic
15 household? It wasn't just up there for the odd
16 religious holiday?
17 A. Well, I didn't pay much attention to that,
18 because at the time, it was normal.
19 Q. At the time you say it was normal to see
20 Croat flags or any flags on houses quite a lot. Sir,
21 Mr. Mehmed Ahmic, you stated he was not liked by people
22 because he ran up a lot of debts. Is it true that
23 people also perhaps disliked his political attitude?
24 Did he assume a political attitude when he was in the
25 SDA party?
1 A. I don't think that that was the problem. And
2 I think that Croats liked him more than the Muslims;
3 that's my personal opinion. There were other reasons,
4 of course, and I learned through conversations with
5 people about him. And that was my impression at the
6 time, the impression that I got from other people as
8 Q. Mr. Dragan Papic did possess a rifle, did he
10 A. I don't know that. I really don't know
11 anything about that.
12 Q. You were aware of his occupation as a
13 forester, I believe, sir? But you --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Sorry, I spoke over you; I apologise.
16 A. Well, I don't know whether he personally was
17 issued with that rifle. I don't know if it belonged to
18 him or whether it belonged to the forestry.
19 Q. Right. Perhaps I'll rephrase it to be more
20 accurate: Were you aware that he had possession of a
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did that rifle have a telescopic sight, for
25 A. No.
1 Q. Was that a rifle that is a single-shot rifle
2 of some accuracy?
3 A. No, I think it's a kind of rifle with a
4 five-bullet clip.
5 Q. But to your recollection, do you ever recall
6 seeing Mr. Dragan Papic carrying a weapon?
7 A. When he would go to work or coming home from
8 work, yes, I know that he would carry it at that time.
9 But only occasionally.
10 Q. Could you -- or do you recall, of the members
11 of the Papic family living in the house of Ivo Papic,
12 can you recall what motor cars they owned between them
13 on or about the 15th of April, 1993? Do you know what
14 cars they happened to own?
15 A. At home, there were always quite a few
16 vehicles around their house. According to my
17 knowledge, Dragan had an orange Stojadin.
18 Q. As you lived in the vicinity, had you ever
19 noticed Mr. Dragan driving different cars? Possibly
20 ones he's repairing for friends, I suppose, but have
21 you seen him driving a variety of different cars over
22 the years?
23 A. Yes, I would see him driving different cars.
24 This would last only for two or three hours; he would
25 only test the vehicles. He would sometimes go to
1 Vjetrenice in order to test the engine, to see if the
2 engine would heat up. This is what I know.
3 MR. BLAXILL: I'd like just a brief moment to
4 confer with my colleagues, if you please, Your Honour.
5 Q. Well, Mr. Papic, thank you, sir, for
6 answering my questions.
7 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, that concludes my
8 cross-examination. Thank you.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I will now call
10 upon Counsel Pinter.
11 Before I do so, I wonder whether at some
12 stage we could hear from the Prosecutor or Defence
13 counsel a few comments on this document, P353. I
14 wonder whether they could shed some light on the
15 purpose and contents of this document. Because now we
16 have received a copy, but it's in Croatian. And
17 probably either party can -- or both parties could
18 explain what it is about, at some stage; not
19 necessarily now. It's for you to decide. I mean, we
20 would at some stage like to have some light on this.
21 Probably the Prosecutor could first of all
22 try to explain.
23 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I think that
24 last week, during the Friday hearing, we disclosed as
25 evidence -- and I don't have the exact number, but I
1 hope it can be found easily -- we disclosed one page
2 together with a translation of the first page and the
3 title of the document. So I think that as regards the
4 translation, this would be enough, because it's the
5 same form. I think in this way you can orient
6 yourself. But if you wish, we can give you some
7 additional translation. But I believe that the
8 translation of that page has already been disclosed.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You're right. I
10 was wrong. I think at that time that we did not have a
11 translation for certain indications; we didn't know,
12 for example, what "P" stood for.
13 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, you're right,
14 but I cannot help you. I don't know.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: If the Defence counsel could
16 perhaps tell us? They told us that it could mean
17 reservist. But you're not sure?
18 Thank you. Thank you very much.
19 Ms. Pinter, you have the floor for the
21 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Re-examined by Ms. Pinter:
23 Q. Mr. Papic, the Prosecutor has shown you a
24 document -- a list take is now in front of you, and he
25 wanted your explanation of the dates on it. And I have
1 a question related to that. I want to know whether you
2 were employed at the time during the period from April
3 until October 1992. Did you go to work?
4 A. No, I was not employed from the 14th of
5 April, 1992.
6 Q. At that time, were you a member of the
7 Croatian Defence Council?
8 A. No, I was not.
9 Q. When the Prosecutor asked you about the
10 village guard, he referred to them as some kind of
11 duty, some kind of obligation. My question to you is
12 whether it was compulsory for people to be members of
13 the village guard, or was it simply on a voluntary
15 A. The fact that we organised ourselves meant
16 that it was not compulsory. Dragan usually avoided the
17 village guard, because he was working most of the
18 time. And people were self-organised, on the basis of
19 houses and neighbourhoods.
20 Q. In response to a Prosecutor's question, you
21 said that the local Territorial Defence provided you
22 with weapons. I would like to know whether the village
23 of Ahmici had their Territorial Defence, or whether it
24 belonged to the Vitez unit.
25 A. Members of the Territorial Defence were both
1 Croats and Muslims.
2 Q. Yes, but was it under the jurisdiction of
4 A. I don't know that.
5 Q. We were discussing the objective of the
6 village guards. You said it was as a protection
7 against air raids?
8 A. Yes, that was the main purpose of the village
10 Q. Could you explain to us, could you tell us
11 whether, apart from the air raids, there was any other
12 form of danger that you were exposed to, were there any
13 robberies at the time, any attacks?
14 A. Yes, we all knew that in view of the
15 situation we had to perform guard duty because there
16 were lots of sabotage units that could enter the
17 village at that time.
18 Q. Did that occur? Did you ever find any
19 unknown persons in your area during your guard duty?
20 If you can remember that.
21 A. Yes, yes, I can. I can answer your
22 question. We did not have any authority to stop people
23 to ask them questions. We were simply able to follow
24 the situation, to observe the situation, and we could
25 report to the people we knew, if there was anything
1 suspicious going on.
2 Q. During the examination-in-chief and the
3 cross-examination, did the name of Fahrudin Ahmic came
4 up. Is he still alive?
5 A. Yes, he is.
6 Q. I'm saying that because there are two persons
7 with the same name, and he's your neighbour, he's still
8 your neighbour?
9 A. Yes, he is.
10 Q. The night of the 19th, while you were
11 performing guard duty, the night between the 19th and
12 the 20th of October, you mentioned that there was a
13 group of people near the hedge. In response to a
14 Prosecutor's question, you said that in view of the
15 location where these people were, you concluded that
16 they were members of the BH army, Muslims.
17 A. Yes, because very -- it was very unusual for
18 soldiers to move around that area, around the field.
19 So that was something strange. I believed, and after
20 we asked Fahrudin Ahmic about that, he probably told
21 them to move away. So after that, we no longer see
22 them. So we didn't expect that any conflict would
24 Q. So when you told Fahrudin Ahmic that you had
25 seen a group of people on the field near the hedge, did
1 he become frightened? Did he show any interest in
2 knowing who it was?
3 A. Well, it was as if he already knew. And he
4 did not provide us with any answer to our questions.
5 He simply went home.
6 Q. In response to a Prosecutor's question
7 regarding the whereabouts of Dragan, you stated that he
8 had been in Donja Rovna. At any point in time later
9 on, not that day, but sometime later on, did you ever
10 discuss his whereabouts?
11 A. Yes, partly. But it is in my nature not to
12 want to know everything. Sometimes it's not good to
13 know everything.
14 Q. You met with Mr. Santic at a particular
15 location, and you saw that Dragan met with Mr. Santic
16 at a particular location; could you tell us how far
17 that location is and could you also show the exact
18 location of Anto Papic's house?
19 A. They met in this area here. (Indicating)
20 Q. And the house of Anto Papic is near the
22 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we can't hear the
24 MS. PINTER:
25 Q. Yes. Could you please switch on the other
1 microphone, because the interpreters cannot hear you.
2 A. The house of Anto Papic is here, Dragan and
3 Nenad met in this area here. (Indicating)
4 Q. How far is it from the house of Nenad
5 Santic? How long does it take, half an hour, one hour
6 to cover the distance?
7 A. No, no. Only -- it's a ten-minute walk.
8 There are shortcuts. Depends on which way you go. If
9 you follow the road then it is much longer.
10 Q. Was that the usual way that you would -- the
11 usual path that you would take?
12 A. No, it was not.
13 Q. Again in response to a Prosecutor's question,
14 you said that -- that your house was hit by the HVO.
15 Can you now say that it was only the HVO who opened
16 fire on your house? Later on you stated that there was
17 an attack on the village of Ahmici?
18 A. No, I deny that. I said that my house was
19 not attacked by the HVO members but the BH soldiers.
20 Q. Is it your opinion or were you told by Muris
21 what the purpose of the attack was, I mean, the attack
22 of the BH army?
23 A. No. This is not my opinion. Muris Ahmic
24 told me about the purpose of the attack, because he led
25 the operation, and according to him the operation was
1 supposed to be led by Sivro Bahtija who was already a
2 member of the Territorial Defence at the time.
3 Q. This means that when you spoke about the
4 cause of the attack earlier on and when you were
5 describing the events that took place on the 21st of
6 October, you were telling -- you were saying what Muris
7 Ahmic had told you, not your opinion?
8 A. Yes. This is what Muris Ahmic told us.
9 That's how we learned about the purpose of the
11 Q. After the attack on the 21st of October,
12 1992, did Croats go to Upper Ahmici?
13 A. After the attack, that is after the 21st of
14 October, on the 22nd and on the 23rd we no longer dared
15 to go to Ahmici, because we were told that we would be
16 beaten up if they see us in Ahmici. We didn't need to
17 go to the Upper Ahmici because the village guards were
18 in the lower area. They threatened us, so we simply
19 didn't dare go there. They told Andjelko Vidovic, for
20 example, that they no longer wanted to see us in the
21 upper part of the village of Ahmici. I can show you on
22 the map, for example.
23 To this area we could move freely, but after
24 this we were not allowed. (Indicating)
25 Later on we saw them digging a trench, but
1 they told us that it was not a trench. They told us
2 that it was a well, but we realised that a trench had
3 been dug up over there and that's why they didn't want
4 us to pass there.
5 Q. In February 1993, you had your accident and
6 you stated the date and the time of the accident. You
7 have the relevant documentation?
8 A. Yes, I do. I don't have it here.
9 Q. Where were you hospitalised, intensive care
10 or traumatology department?
11 A. Yes, I was at the intensive care ward but
12 everything was all mixed up in the Travnik hospital at
13 the area -- at that time, because it was in a kind of a
14 shelter because of the shelling.
15 Q. Dragan Papic wore a camouflage uniform, you
16 said. I wanted to know whether he also wore a forestry
18 A. Well, yes, when he -- he would change into
19 another uniform. He wouldn't wear the camouflage
20 uniform all the time, and it was only natural that he
21 also wore a forestry uniform because he would go to
23 Q. Were Muslim flags also flown on the houses?
24 A. Yes, during religious holidays or on other
25 such occasions.
1 Q. How long do their holidays last, religious
2 holidays, do you know?
3 A. I don't really know how long they last.
4 Q. Finally, let me ask you to repeat why the
5 locals did not like Mehmed Ahmic. Maybe the Prosecutor
6 missed this point, so could you tell us what the
7 reasons were? Was it his political views or were there
8 other reasons? Could you be more specific?
9 A. Mehmed did all kinds of things. He engaged
10 in business. He would burglarise his own shop to
11 collect some insurance money, and we all knew that.
12 Even he didn't conceal the fact. Then he would owe a
13 lot of people in the village money. I also did some
14 things for him but I can't say that he owed me money,
15 he didn't, but many complained about that. They
16 complained about his behaviour, and he was accepted in
17 the leadership of the SDA.
18 Q. No, but we're talking about the local
20 A. Yes, I see.
21 Q. In front of Ivo Papic's house, until the
22 war -- or, rather, until you were there, that is until
23 February 1993, were there cars in front of that house?
24 A. Yes, there were.
25 Q. Were they cars owned by the Papic family?
1 A. No. There were other cars that were being
2 repaired there. They would stay there for two, three,
3 four days.
4 Q. Very well. One more question. After the
5 20th of October when you saw Dragan, did Dragan tell
6 you where he was on the 20th of October?
7 A. Yes. He said he was in Donja Rovna, but I
8 didn't ask him about any further details, nor was I
9 interested in the details as to his movements there.
10 In any event, he spent the whole day there.
11 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours. I have
12 no further questions.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. There will be no
14 objection, I assume, to the witness being released.
15 Mr. Papic, thank you so much for testifying
16 in court. You may now be released.
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we move on to our next
19 witness, I would like to draw your attention to a
20 motion which had been filed some time ago, the 11th of
21 February. It has been told to me by the Registrar that
22 we have not yet taken any action on the granting of
23 safe conduct for the witness Josip Vidovic. It was
24 probably a mistake. I was pretty sure that we had
25 already issued an order on the issue of safe conduct.
1 We will do so right away, but before we proceed to the
2 request of safe conduct, I would like to ask the
3 Prosecutors whether they have any objection to such
4 safe conduct. It's Mr. Josip Vidovic living in
5 Santici, and the request was filed by the Defence
6 Counsel Susak on the 11th of February.
7 MR. BLAXILL: There is no objection, Your
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So we will issue
10 this, and I apologise for this mistake or -- I don't
11 know how to say.
12 Shall we bring in the next witness, Mr. Goran
14 (The witness entered court)
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Goran
16 Males. I would like to ask you to make the solemn
17 declaration, please.
18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much. You may
22 be seated. I will call upon counsel Pinter.
23 WITNESS: GORAN MALES
24 Examined by Ms. Pinter:
25 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Males.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. Would you please introduce yourself?
4 A. My name is Goran Males. I was born on the
5 24th of January, 1967 in Busovaca municipality in
7 Q. And what is your occupation?
8 A. I'm a soldier, a member of the Special
9 Units. I'm a professional soldier.
10 Q. Since when have you been living in Vitez?
11 A. I have been living in Vitez since 1967.
12 Q. Before you settled in Vitez, where did you
14 A. I lived at Rijeka in Vitez municipality.
15 Q. With the usher's assistance could this aerial
16 photograph be removed so that we can see better the
17 bigger picture in the background on the board?
18 Mr. Males, can you speak up a little bit?
19 A. I'll do that.
20 Q. Will you please take the pointer on your
21 right, you can extend it if necessary, and could you
22 please point to Rijeka, where you lived before you went
23 to Vitez, then where Podjele is. You can take off the
24 headphones. Thank you.
25 A. Rijeka, it's this area. (Indicating)
1 Q. Find Vitez first, please?
2 A. Just a moment. This is Vitez municipality,
3 all of this. Rijeka is here. In fact, it extends as
4 far as this point. Then comes Donja Rovna in
5 continuation. This also is Rijeka, up to here.
7 Q. Will you please show us where Podjele is?
8 A. Podjele. (Indicating)
9 Q. Thank you. You may take your seat.
10 A. You're welcome.
11 Q. Who were the majority population in Rijeka?
12 A. The Croats were the majority population.
13 Q. Were there some Muslim -- in Rijeka?
14 A. Yes, there were some.
15 Q. What were the relationships like between
16 Muslims and Croats?
17 A. Very good.
18 Q. How far is Rijeka from Ahmici?
19 A. It is about three and a half to four
20 kilometres away.
21 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about the
22 first conflicts in Ahmici?
23 A. As far as my personal knowledge is concerned,
24 I don't have any personal knowledge.
25 Q. Very well. Do you have any knowledge as to
1 where the first conflict between the Muslims and the
2 Croats broke out?
3 A. In Busovaca municipality.
4 Q. Can you tell the Court where you were on the
5 19th of October, 1992?
6 A. Yes, I can. I was in Podjele, Busovaca
7 municipality, after seeing off the relatives of my
9 Q. Was that the reason why you recall that day
10 so well?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where were your mother's relatives going?
13 A. My mother's relatives were leaving to the
14 territory under Serb army control.
15 Q. Why?
16 A. Simply they couldn't organise their lives to
17 stay on in the vicinity. There was the village of
18 Merdani and the village of Strane.
19 Q. What ethnicity is your mother?
20 A. My mother is of Serbian nationality.
21 Q. So there were Serbs living in Podjele, or
22 were they the minority?
23 A. The majority population was Serbs. There
24 were some Croats and one Muslim family.
25 Q. So your mother's family, on the 19th of
1 October, was leaving Podjele?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are any members of your family living in
4 Podjele today?
5 A. No, no one is living there.
6 Q. Very well. Will you please describe now your
7 return journey from Podjele to Rijeka, but before that
8 will you please tell us whether you had any property,
9 or a house or some woods there?
10 A. Yes, we did have some property. We had a
11 house and some land, and that is why I spent a lot of
12 time there.
13 Q. So it means that formerly you were living in
14 Vitez but you spent a lot of time in Rijeka?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. PINTER: Your Honours, I'm being told
17 that it is time for our break. We were anyway going on
18 to another area now. Thank you.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Excellent. We'll take a
20 break, 15 minutes.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
22 --- Upon resuming at 12.30 p.m.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pinter?
24 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Mr. Males, we stopped when you were at
1 Podjele to see off your mother's family, who had moved
3 A. Yes. I was in Podjele to see off my mother's
5 Q. Can you speak up a little?
6 A. Yes, I was in Podjele; I was seeing off my
7 mother's family.
8 Q. After that, where did you go?
9 A. I went home.
10 Q. Which road did you take?
11 A. The main road going from Kaonik to Vitez.
12 Q. Did you go by car, did you use public
13 transport, or on foot, by bike? How did you go?
14 A. I went on foot.
15 Q. Why?
16 A. For one reason: To hitchhike, to stop a
17 vehicle along the road.
18 Q. You didn't have a car at the time?
19 A. No. No.
20 Q. The road you took, taking you to Rijeka, does
21 it pass through Ahmici?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When I finish my question, wait a moment and
24 then answer it, please.
25 A. Very well.
1 Q. I should now like to ask you to take the
2 pointer and point on the map the road you took from
3 Podjele to Rijeka.
4 Please turn towards the microphone so we can
5 hear you.
6 A. (Indicating) this is Podjele, and I started
7 from Podjele, following this road. I reached Kaonik;
8 from Kaonik, I went along the main road towards Vitez.
9 Q. Did you meet anyone along the way?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we can't hear the
12 A. At Nadioci, I met some Croats, men of
13 Croatian nationality, who warned me not to go toward
14 Ahmici, but to take another path via Rasko Polje,
15 Radak's bridge, and Rijeka. I didn't follow their
16 advice, and I went on along the main road.
17 MS. PINTER:
18 Q. Before you went on, and when they were
19 warning you -- you can sit down.
20 Did they tell you, when they warned you not
21 to continue along that road, what was happening in
23 A. Yes. They said that something was happening
24 to the effect that the road was blocked.
25 Q. Why didn't you listen to their advice?
1 A. Because across Rasko Polje and Radak's
2 bridge, it was not pleasant to take that road at the
3 time. It was night.
4 Q. Were you an active-duty soldier at the time?
5 A. An active-duty soldier?
6 Q. Did you have a uniform and weapon that
8 A. No. I was wearing civilian clothes.
9 Q. When you went on from Nadioci towards Ahmici,
10 what happened next?
11 A. At the Sangaj restaurant, I was stopped again
12 by Croats who told me that something was happening
14 Q. Was it a barricade, or ... ?
15 A. I don't know. Again, I didn't listen to
17 Q. What do you mean when you say "up there"?
18 A. I mean near the cemetery. In a hollow. The
19 cemetery was on the left-hand side, and there was an
20 uphill slope on the right-hand side.
21 Q. Very well. And what happened next?
22 A. Again, I didn't do as I was told, so I went
23 on. And when I got to some 10 or 15 metres away from
24 the cemetery, they said "Stop."
25 Q. Who?
1 A. The Bosnia and Herzegovina army.
2 Q. How could you tell it was the BH army?
3 A. Because I had already been warned that they
4 were preparing something there.
5 Q. Did you see them?
6 A. Yes. I just saw shadows. When I walked up
7 to them, I saw that they were soldiers.
8 Q. How could you tell they were soldiers, and
9 that they belonged to the BH army?
10 A. As I approached them, they immediately asked
11 my ID particulars: My name, my date of birth, my
13 Q. And then?
14 A. I told them my particulars, and they said
15 "Wait a minute."
16 Q. How many men gathered round you?
17 A. Roughly 100.
18 Q. Were they standing in the middle of the road,
19 or on the side?
20 A. Some were standing on the road; others were
21 jumping across a fence, coming from the cemetery,
22 actually from the cemetery itself. And from this
23 uphill slope, they were coming down this little hill
24 into the hollow where the road passed.
25 Q. Does that mean that you were near the
2 A. Yes. Right facing the cemetery.
3 Q. Could you describe to the Court what these
4 men who surrounded you looked like? Were they wearing
5 civilian clothes, or uniforms? Were they armed? Was
6 it a group of men, or were they organised? Could you
7 describe that for us.
8 A. It was an organised group of men. Most of
9 them were wearing camouflage uniforms. They were
10 armed. There were some civilians. Very few, but they
11 were armed.
12 Q. How could you tell that they were BH army
14 A. It was my assessment that the Croats would
15 not have held me there, because they asked for my
16 particulars as to when I was born, where I was coming
17 from, where I was going, who I was, what I was, who my
18 parents were, my brothers, my sisters; they wanted to
19 know all those particulars.
20 Q. Can you remember today what they said to
21 you --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- what they wanted from you?
24 A. They insulted me. They didn't ask for
25 anything else, just my particulars. They asked whether
1 I had come across anyone else on my way.
2 Q. Did they threaten you?
3 A. Yes, they did.
4 Q. How?
5 A. I heard somebody from the group saying "let's
6 kill him and throw him into the channel. Let's gouge
7 his eyes out." And things like that, all kinds of
9 Q. Did you feel that you were in danger?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. How did this whole incident end? Did anyone
12 react, did you recognise anyone, did someone come up?
13 What happened?
14 A. A person came out of the group and said he
15 was going to get the commander. I waited. They came
16 back, some of them, but they just kept asking me more
17 questions. They pointed a lamp at me, 10 centimetres
18 away from my eyes. They wrote down some more details:
19 My date of birth, where I was born, where I was coming
20 from, where I was going. They left, apparently to
21 fetch the commander again.
22 Q. Did the commander come?
23 A. The second time they came, nobody asked me
24 anything. The third time they went to fetch the
25 commander, and then he came, this commander of theirs,
1 who asked me my first and last names. When I told them
2 my first and last names, he said, "Let him go. Let him
3 pass." By his voice, I am of the opinion that it was
4 Fikret Ahmic.
5 Q. So you knew Fikret Ahmic?
6 A. Yes, I did know him.
7 Q. Since when?
8 A. Since primary school. Because we went to the
9 primary school at Donja Dubravica, at the railway
11 Q. Did you know why the roadblock had been put
12 up at the time?
13 A. Could you please repeat the question?
14 Q. Did you know at the time the reason for
15 putting up the roadblock?
16 A. No, I did not know at the time.
17 Q. Did you personally see the roadblock?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where was it?
20 A. The roadblock was in the direction of the
22 Q. Did you see what it consisted of?
23 A. Yes, it consisted of a village fence that we
24 called Baskija.
25 Q. That fence, was it an obstacle, or could it
1 have been used as an obstacle for vehicles?
2 A. Yes, it could. It could be an obstacle for
4 Q. Did you learn subsequently why the roadblock
5 had been put up?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Why?
8 A. The road was blocked so as to prevent the
9 people of Busovaca from going to Jajce.
10 Q. At the time were you an active duty soldier
11 or were you a reservist?
12 A. I was in the reserves.
13 Q. When did you become an active duty soldier?
14 A. At the beginning of the war.
15 Q. In '90 what?
16 A. In '93.
17 Q. Do you know Dragan Papic?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. How do you know him?
20 A. We would see each other in front of the
21 Sumarija, the forestry company when my neighbour was
22 purchasing fuel wood, and I would also see him in Vitez
23 in cafes known as Fistas.
24 Q. What kind of relationship did you have with
25 him? Were you friends or acquaintances?
1 A. We were just acquaintances.
2 Q. Can you remember today what Dragan Papic
3 looked like in those days when you would come across
5 A. Dragan had a beard.
6 Q. What kind of a beard?
7 A. It was quite big.
8 Q. Can you look at him today? Was his beard
9 like that?
10 A. No, his beard was bigger than that and
11 thicker. He wasn't shaved on the sides.
12 Q. When you spoke to Dragan in the cafes, when
13 you came across him, as you've said, did you spend
14 enough time with him to be able to say that in your
15 conversations Dragan manifested any kind of nationalist
17 A. No. In our conversations this did not
19 Q. What did you discuss then?
20 A. Mostly girls.
21 Q. Did you discuss politics at all?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was he interested in politics? Do you know?
24 A. I wouldn't think he was.
25 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what he liked to
1 do apart from his regular work, if you know anything
2 about that?
3 A. No, I don't know anything about it.
4 MS. PINTER: That would be all, Your
5 Honours. Thank you.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you very much Counsel
7 Pinter. Counsel Pavkovic, any cross-examination by
8 other Defence counsel?
9 MR. PAVKOVIC: No, Mr. President, no other
10 Defence counsel wishes to cross-examine the witness.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Terrier?
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
13 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Witness, my name is Franck Terrier. I am one
15 of the Prosecution attorneys, and I'm going to ask a
16 few questions after the testimony that you have just
18 First of all, you told us a few moments ago
19 that you are today a professional soldier and that you
20 belong to a special unit. Can you be more specific
21 about that?
22 A. Yes. I joined the professional army for one
23 reason. It was the best paid army in the territory of
25 Q. On what date did you join that army as a
2 A. On the 21st of August, 1995.
3 Q. What does a "special unit" mean?
4 A. A "special unit" means that we have to be
5 ready to carry out any tasks assigned to us in
6 peacetime and in wartime.
7 Q. Does that also mean that you had special
9 A. No.
10 Q. What is your rank?
11 A. I have no rank.
12 Q. So that means you're just a soldier, a
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Where was your unit stationed?
16 A. Now it is stationed in --
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry. Counsel Pinter?
18 MS. PINTER: Your Honours, these are
19 questions regarding the current occupation of the
20 witness, and I would rather that he not be questioned
21 about his present occupation as that is not covered by
22 the indictment. The witness has told us where he works
23 and since when, but what he's now doing I don't think
24 is important or relevant.
25 MR. TERRIER: The witness told us that he was
1 a soldier belonging to a special unit. It goes without
2 saying that -- that I can obtain from this witness that
3 I wish to cross-examine and whose credibility concerns
4 me, I wish to have some precision as to what those
5 special units are and what are the current activities
6 of a professional unit, but I will cover that very
7 quickly and go back to the period of 1992 and 1993.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier,
9 because we have just learned from the witness that he
10 joined that special unit on the 21st of August, 1995,
11 so that Attorney Pinter is right. Nevertheless, we too
12 would like to know what the tasks are of those special
13 units. Just a few words about it. Then I would be
14 grateful if you would go back to the period of 1992.
15 MR. TERRIER:
16 Q. Witness, could you then specify for us, in
17 the case of a conflict or case of difficulty, the
18 special tasks of the unit that you belong to today?
19 A. You know yourself, the defence of the State.
20 In peacetime we assist people when building roads.
21 That is the engineers, but we as the infantry have no
22 duties. We just secure military buildings and that's
24 Q. I think that we will have to be satisfied
25 with that answer, Mr. President. I'm going now back to
1 the period of '92-'93.
2 A moment ago, witness, in answer to questions
3 by the Defence lawyer, you said that you were first a
4 reservist in the HVO and then an active duty soldier.
5 Could you specify the dates when you became an HVO
7 A. A soldier in the HVO? Could you please
8 clear -- make that question clearer? When I became a
9 soldier or when I was in the reserve?
10 Q. I'm asking you both. When did you become a
11 reservist and when you became an active duty soldier.
12 A. I became an active duty soldier at the
13 beginning of the conflict, and before that for a very
14 short period.
15 Q. Can I ask you, witness, to finish your answer
16 which doesn't appear to be complete? Can you specify
17 the dates if you know them?
18 A. I am afraid I do not know the dates just
20 Q. Could you tell us, in that case -- at least
21 give us a more precise indication of the period during
22 which you became an active duty soldier of the HVO?
23 Surely you can remember the period.
24 A. The summer of '92. I was a reservist.
25 Q. Witness, perhaps you're not understanding
1 me. My question is: In what period did you become an
2 active duty soldier of the HVO?
3 A. I became an active duty soldier of the HVO on
4 the 16th of March, 1993 when the conflict actually
5 broke out in our area.
6 Q. You said the 16th of March, 1993? Is that
7 what you said?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. As from the 16th of March, 1993 you were an
10 active duty soldier of the HVO. Where were you on the
11 16th of April, 1993?
12 A. On the 16th of April, 1993 I was in Vitez.
13 Q. Which unit of the HVO did you belong to?
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pinter.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,
17 MS. PINTER: Your Honours, during the
18 examination-in-chief the witness was asked a question
19 about the year of 1992 and the 20th of October, 1992.
20 In his testimony, we did not discuss his affiliation
21 with any military in the year of 1993, nor was any
22 mention made of the events that took place in 1993.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but the Prosecutor has
24 the right to ask questions concerning the relevant
25 times, that is the year of 1993. Why not? You are
1 familiar with the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
2 There is a Rule, according to which the witness can be
3 asked questions which go outside the strict framework
4 of the examination-in-chief. That is the main -- the
6 It seems to me that the question that is
7 asked by Mr. Terrier is a relevant question because it
8 goes to the relevant events. Therefore, we will allow
9 the Prosecutor to continue with the questions relating
10 to the period of March and April in 1993.
11 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Witness, could you please tell us to which
13 unit of the HVO you belonged on the 16th of April,
15 A. I belonged -- just a second -- to the Novi
16 Travnik unit which was called Kralj Tomislav unit.
17 Q. Is it not a brigade?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Could you be more specific? You were a
20 soldier at the time. Could you specify the unit to
21 which you belonged in terms of battalion, company and
22 so on?
23 A. I was a member of a company which was under
24 the jurisdiction of Vitez municipality. Vitez
25 municipality had a company of soldiers.
1 Q. Who was the commander who issued orders to
3 A. The commander of the company?
4 Q. Yes, the commander of the company.
5 A. The commander of my company, to tell you the
6 truth, is still unknown to me. I still don't know who
7 the commander was.
8 Q. Could you tell us the name of any officer or
9 non-commissioned officer under whose orders you were
10 during that time?
11 A. Yes. It was Mr. Karlo Grabovac who was my
13 Q. What were his duties?
14 A. I wouldn't know that.
15 Q. Do you remember what happened on the 16th of
16 April, 1993? Could you briefly describe the events of
17 that day, to the best of your recollection?
18 A. It was the second conflict that broke out on
19 the territory of the Vitez municipality. I was asleep
20 at the time, and my mother woke me up and she wanted to
21 know what was happening. She said, "Dear child, what
22 is going on?" There was shooting, and I went out of
23 the house and I realised that the situation was
24 terrible, so I went to Rijeka, to the farm, to our
25 property, to see what was happening with my property.
1 I didn't want anyone to destroy it.
2 Q. Yes, please go on.
3 A. So I got there, I got to the farm, and
4 realised that everything was okay. However, there was
5 shooting going on all over the place, and I went to the
6 area called Cerveno Burce and I remained up
7 there throughout the war.
8 Q. When you say that you remained on that hill
9 in the area of Cerveno Burce --
10 A. It's B-r-d-c-e.
11 Q. Thank you very much. You said that you
12 stayed there throughout the conflict. Could you be
13 more specific? How long did you stay there? Could you
14 give us any dates?
15 A. Well, I stayed there for one year,
16 approximately. The duration of the war.
17 Q. Witness, could you please be more specific.
18 At that time, you were an active-duty soldier; why did
19 you stay there for one year?
20 A. Well, we were defending our parts; that is,
21 the area of the village of Vranjska. We were defending
22 our houses, the houses that were behind the lines, and
23 at that time they were only 30 or 40 metres away from
24 the front line. What were we supposed to do? To let
25 them occupy the area.
1 Q. Yes, but you received certain orders to stay
3 A. No. I didn't receive any orders. I simply
4 went to the front line in order to defend my property,
5 in order to save the lives of my family, of my
7 Q. Correct me if I'm wrong: You say that you
8 were an active-duty soldier, that you belonged to a
9 brigade, to a company, that you were a member of a
10 military organisation and you were part of a certain
11 military hierarchy, you had a commander, and on the
12 16th of April, you stayed in the vicinity of your
13 property in order to protect it, and that you remained
14 there for a period of one year. Throughout that year,
15 you no longer had any contact with your military
16 command, and you sort of remained outside the military
17 milieu? Am I correct?
18 A. Throughout the war, we didn't pay much
19 attention to the command. We didn't really know who
20 the commander was. The idea was simply to protect our
21 homes. There was no proper structure, proper
23 Q. I would like to understand you, and I know
24 that the HVO had certain problems in terms of structure
25 and organisation at the time. However, I would like
1 you to confirm the fact that during that particular
2 year, while you were an active-duty soldier, you
3 remained without any orders. It was a period of a
4 conflict, and you did not receive any orders; you were
5 involved in some kind of personal matter.
6 A. During the war, no one was under any command
7 on that line. There were very few of us, and the idea
8 was to remain there, in that particular area. The
9 command was not properly structured. There was no
10 proper military set-up at that time, and I'm referring
11 to the HVO. So one can say that it was a
12 self-organised defence of our own village.
13 Q. Witness, I'm really trying hard to
14 understand. Were you armed during that time, during
15 that year while you were protecting your village?
16 A. You mean the front line, when you say
18 Q. Yes, I'm referring to the front line.
19 A. Yes. We had very little weaponry, and it
20 would change hands on the front line.
21 MR. TERRIER: Can I have the assistance of
22 the usher, please.
23 Q. Witness, I would like to show you the
24 Document 353, page 35.
25 Page 55. It's page 55, and not 35.
1 Witness, could you please have a look at the
2 line 21 from the top, on page 1.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you find it? Could you please follow
5 that line, and tell me whether the signature that
6 figures at the end of the line is your signature.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you please tell me whether the period
9 that is indicated here on the document is the period
10 during which you were a member of the HVO in 1992, and
11 then up to 1995. Is that the correct period?
12 A. No. The information is not correct, because
13 this was done for the purpose of distribution of
15 Q. Could you please be more specific, and tell
16 us something more about this distribution of shares.
17 Are you speaking about some kind of compensation for
18 the services provided to the HVO in the form of shares?
19 A. Yes. Something like that, yes.
20 Q. Is that the reason -- and please correct me
21 if I'm wrong -- that we count the number -- that you
22 count the number of months of service within the HVO?
23 A. Yes, more or less. But the date is not
25 Q. So why did you sign this document?
1 A. This document has been signed, but you can
2 see yourself that something was typed over this
4 Q. I beg your pardon? Could you be more
5 specific, please?
6 A. Yes, I could be more specific. This was done
7 on two separate occasions, and in relation to the same
8 number. There is a text here that was typed over.
9 Q. Thank you very much. I didn't at first
10 understand what you meant.
11 Could you tell us what the letter "P" stands
12 for? It is on the right-hand side of the page, in the
13 fourth column.
14 A. Column number 4, on the right side?
15 Q. Actually it's in the middle of the page. On
16 the line that refers to you, there is a column, and
17 there is a letter "P "in it, at the same level.
18 A. Yes, yes. I found it.
19 I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
20 Q. Witness, were you compensated for the
21 services provided to the HVO?
22 A. After the war, we were given shares, but
23 these shares are not active yet. And I hope something
24 will come out of that.
25 Q. This type of compensation, did it involve --
1 was it applied only to active-duty soldiers, or to
2 reservists as well?
3 A. It was distributed to everyone who was at the
4 time in the war, and it concerned both Muslims and
6 Q. Witness, my question was perhaps more
7 specific: The persons who were reservists at the time,
8 did they have the right, however, to a certain
9 compensation, namely the compensation -- the kind of
10 compensation that you have just described?
11 A. All members who during the war were defending
12 their area are entitled to these shares, to be
13 compensated in the form of shares.
14 Q. Yes, but from what you have just told us, is
15 it not true that there isn't much difference between a
16 reservist and an active-duty soldier?
17 A. No. There isn't much difference when it
18 comes to shares, because we were simply defending our
19 parts. There were elderly people among us, women who
20 prepared food at the front line, people who brought
21 food. All these individuals are entitled to this type
22 of compensation.
23 Q. Witness, does this not mean that all members
24 of the Croatian Community, all those who are of
25 military age and can perform military service, are
1 actually members of the HVO; and is it not true that
2 the notion of reservist, the way we understand it in
3 the context of other armies in Europe, was actually
4 non-existent? Is it not true that there were no
5 reservists at the time?
6 A. No, it is not true. We didn't have
7 reservists because there were very few of us.
8 Q. Bearing in mind these conditions, in October
9 1992, on the road between Kaonik and Ahmici, you
10 learned that a roadblock had been set up in Ahmici, and
11 you decided not to take the byroad to Vitez; you
12 decided to go along that road. But you at that time
13 had military duties, you had military duties within the
15 A. I took the main road for one reason: Several
16 days before that, there was very heavy rainfall. It's
17 a dirt road; it's not a tarmac road. And during the
18 first conflict, I was a reservist.
19 Q. I would really like to understand correctly
20 what you're saying. You were about to go in the
21 direction of the roadblock, and you decided to do that
22 because there was no other way for you to get to Vitez?
23 A. No, I could take the road that goes along
24 Rasko Polje and the Radak bridge; but because of very
25 heavy rainfall several days prior to that, because of
1 the muddy roads, I decided to take the Ahmici road. I
2 was a civilian. At that moment, I wasn't carrying any
3 weapons, and I thought that there was not any special
4 reason why that roadblock had been set up.
5 Q. But in spite of that, on two occasions, you
6 were told not to continue in that direction but to take
7 up some other road; this is what you told us.
8 A. Yes, that's true. But I didn't want to get
9 dirty, and I was hoping that a vehicle would pass by
10 and that someone would give me a lift to Vitez.
11 Q. Who was the HVO soldier whom you encountered
12 and told who you not to continue in that direction?
13 Where was he?
14 A. He was not an HVO soldier. These people were
15 villagers of Croatian nationality, and this happened in
16 the area of the village of Nadioci and also near the
17 cafe called Sangaj.
18 Q. If we can have the assistance of the usher,
19 please. Can the witness be shown the area photograph
20 of Ahmici so he can show us the exact location of the
21 Sangaj cafe?
22 JUDGE CASSESE: In the meantime, Mr. Terrier,
23 do you have many questions left? You don't think you
24 will finish the cross-examination?
25 MR. TERRIER: I don't have many questions
1 left, maybe 10 or 15 minutes, but I presume we have
2 other obligations.
3 Q. Witness, on this aerial photograph can we see
4 the location of the Sangaj cafe?
5 A. The Sangaj restaurant is just below the
6 cemetery. You can see the parking-lot near the
7 cemetery. Can I use the pointer, please?
8 Q. Please do, yes.
9 A. This is the parking area of the Sangaj
10 restaurant. It's right here. (Indicating)
11 Q. It's not the same facility as the one
12 commonly referred to as "Bungalow"?
13 A. Could you please repeat your question?
14 Q. Yes, of course. This facility that you have
15 just shown on the map, is it the same facility or a
16 different facility as the one called "Bungalow"?
17 A. It's not the same place. The Sangaj cafe is
18 here and the Bungalow is further down the road. I can
19 show you the location of the Bungalow as well.
20 Q. Yes, please do.
21 A. (Indicating)
22 Q. Thank you, witness.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier. We
24 will adjourn and we will come back tomorrow at 9.00
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
2 at 1.33 p.m., to be reconvened on
3 Thursday, the 25th day of February,
4 1999, at 9.00 a.m.