1 Thursday, 25th February, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
8 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
9 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
11 Mr. Terrier?
12 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Witness.
14 We are going to resume our examination from
15 yesterday. I have a few more questions, but I don't
16 think they will take long.
17 WITNESS: GORAN MALES (Resumed)
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
19 Q. We stopped yesterday on the road linking
20 Kaonik and Ahmici. You were approaching the
21 roadblock. You told us that you were warned of the
22 existence of this roadblock by Croatian civilians that
23 you met on the road; am I not mistaken?
24 A. Yes, everything is correct. They warned me.
25 I didn't heed their warnings.
1 Q. At that point in time, as you were going
2 along the road towards Ahmici, did you see HVO military
4 A. No, I did not see any HVO forces. I only saw
6 Q. I have asked you this question because in the
7 summary of your testimony communicated to us by the
8 Defence, it says that you said that you were warned of
9 the existence of this roadblock by HVO military
11 A. No, the HVO was not there. There may have
12 been one or two members in uniform.
13 Q. Passing by the Bungalow, you didn't see
15 A. Before the Bungalow, I saw some people
16 calling me from the bushes, actually, telling me to
17 stop and not to proceed.
18 Q. At what time did you reach the roadblock near
20 A. I do not know the exact time, but it could
21 have been between 7.00 and 7.30 in the afternoon.
22 Q. Could you tell us with some precision how
23 that roadblock had been made, what objects did it
24 consist of, and how it was removed?
25 A. The roadblock or barricade was made out of
1 village fences that we called Baskija, and how it was
2 removed, I don't know.
3 Q. You told us yesterday that you were held
4 there for about one hour near the roadblock and that
5 afterwards you were allowed to leave --
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Excuse me, Mr. President.
7 Could I have the registrar's attention, please, the
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Please continue.
10 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. You told us yesterday that you were held
12 there for a certain amount of time at the roadblock and
13 that afterwards you were allowed to leave. Where did
14 you go after that?
15 A. Again, I continued along the main
16 Kaonik-Vitez road.
17 Q. After that evening, after having passed the
18 roadblock, did you have any contact with a member of
19 the HVO?
20 A. No, I did not because my father was very ill,
21 so I went home.
22 Q. In your opinion, Witness, I refer to your
23 military experiences, you are a professional soldier,
24 what was the logic of this roadblock? What was the
25 motivation, the reason, for building it?
1 A. I don't know. I don't know the logic nor ...
2 Q. Witness, during March, April, and later --
3 I'm talking of March and April 1993, of course. Did
4 you meet the accused Dragan Papic, whom you referred to
6 A. Yes, I would see him in Vitez, in Fistas.
7 Q. Could you be more specific as to the period
8 during which you encountered the accused Dragan Papic?
9 A. I'm talking of the month of March and April.
10 I can't be more specific because I really do not
11 remember myself.
12 Q. Let me rephrase the question. Do you have
13 any memory of meeting Dragan Papic in March or April or
14 later in 1993?
15 A. May I put it this way, in March and April --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness wants the names
17 of the months to be interpreted in a dialect he
18 understands better. Third and fourth month.
19 MR. TERRIER:
20 Q. Let me repeat my question: Do you recollect
21 having encountered the accused Dragan Papic in the
22 months of March or April 1993 or the months that
23 followed, the third, fourth, and following months of
24 that year?
25 A. No, I did not meet him. For one reason, at
1 the time, I don't know how to put it, we were preparing
2 to defend our village. We were digging trenches and
3 dugouts and other things.
4 Q. So all that you told us about the accused
5 Dragan Papic, especially regarding his physical
6 appearance, has to do with the previous period. You
7 cannot give us any precise information regarding the
8 months of March and April?
9 A. No, I can't because we are not neighbours nor
10 are we close friends. The distance between my house
11 and his is three and a half to four kilometres.
12 Q. Do you know the other accused in these
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you have anything you would wish to say
16 about them?
17 A. I could say that they are very nice people,
18 at least that was my impression, I don't know what
19 other people think, and I can guarantee that they did
20 not commit the crime, from my point of view.
21 Q. How did you meet them? What were the
22 circumstances in which you met them?
23 A. I know Dragan Papic because we would meet in
24 the Cafe Fistas. The other gentlemen I know from
25 sight. I mean, I would see them in the street. Some
1 of them are businessmen who had their own businesses,
2 wholesale stores, so I would see them in town.
3 Q. Therefore, you do not have any friendly
4 relations with them, not even a personal
5 acquaintanceship, just a physical contact, a visual
7 A. Yes, yes. Passing by, we would see one
8 another. We had no friendly contact.
9 Q. A last question, Witness: As a member of the
10 HVO, did you take an oath?
11 A. In which army?
12 Q. The Croatian Defence Council.
13 A. Not -- no, not -- no because that is no
14 longer the fashion, one might say.
15 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have no
16 further questions for this witness.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier.
18 Madam Pinter?
19 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Cross-examined by Ms. Pinter:
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Males.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Let us clarify a few points. In answer to a
24 question from the Prosecutor, you said that on the 15th
25 of August, 1993 -- sorry, 1995, you became a
1 professional soldier.
2 A. I said on the 21st of August, 1995 I became a
3 professional soldier.
4 Q. Of which army did you become a professional
6 A. Of the 3rd Guards Brigade, which is now a
7 part of the Federation. This was a professional unit,
8 and it is still a professional unit.
9 Q. So you mean you signed a contract and that
10 you are employed in the army of the Federation of
12 A. Yes, I have a three-year contract with them.
13 When the contract expires, it may be extended if my
14 medical reports allow it.
15 Q. In March or April 1993, did you sign any kind
16 of a contract with the army?
17 A. No, I did not sign any contract.
18 Q. Does that mean then that in March and April
19 you were not a professional soldier?
20 A. Let me put it this way: No, it was just to
21 defend the homeland.
22 Q. Thank you. In answer to a question by the
23 Prosecutor yesterday, you said that you became an
24 active-duty soldier at the beginning of the conflict in
25 March 1993.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What do you consider to be the beginning of
3 the conflict?
4 A. The war itself that broke out in our area.
5 Q. When?
6 A. On the 16th of March, 1993.
7 Q. Do you mean March or April?
8 A. I'm sorry. The 16th of April.
9 Q. Then can we take it that when you told the
10 Prosecutor it was March that you made a mistake?
11 A. Yes, it was a mistake on my part.
12 Q. Up until the 16th of April, 1993, were you an
13 active-duty soldier or were you a reservist?
14 A. I was in the reserves.
15 Q. So there were reserves?
16 A. Yes, but not in the sense other people
17 understand it.
18 Q. Can you tell us where Crveno Brdce is or the
19 red hillock?
20 A. It is a hamlet close to Rijeka.
21 MS. PINTER: Can we ask the usher to remove
22 the first aerial photograph and to leave the aerial
23 photograph of the Lasva River Valley that's on the
25 Q. Please turn around so that Their Honours and
1 the Prosecution can see you.
2 A. This is Rijeka, all of this, and Crveno Brdce
3 is right here (indicating).
4 Q. Very well. Thank you. How far is Crveno
5 Brdce from Vitez?
6 A. Crveno Brdce is about one to one and a half
7 kilometres as the crow flies.
8 Q. How far is it from Rijeka?
9 A. It is really part of Rijeka.
10 Q. How far was Crveno Brdce from the front line?
11 A. You mean of the BH army or the HVO?
12 Q. I'm thinking of the defence line in relation
13 to the BH army.
14 A. Just below the wood, you can see the wood
15 here. They were below the wood, and we were above the
16 woods, and in this area too. This was closer to us, to
17 our homes.
18 Q. Were you on Crveno Brdce to watch over your
19 home and property or did you have any other assignments
20 or tasks up there?
21 A. All I did was defend my property.
22 Q. Does that mean that you were on the front
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you alone up there?
1 A. No, no. During the war, of course, I
2 couldn't have been alone.
3 Q. Were there other people with you?
4 A. On the front line?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes, all the Croats here (indicating), along
7 here (indicating). You see, it's about 30 metres
8 between the front line and our houses.
9 Q. As you said in answer to a question from the
10 Prosecution, Mr. Grabovac, who was your superior, was
11 he with you?
12 A. No, no, Grabovac never appeared on the front
14 Q. You may take your seat now we won't be
15 referring to the map any more. Do you know that
16 persons who were not active members of the HVO were
17 entitled to shares?
18 A. Yes, I do know that for one reason, my wife
19 received the shares.
20 Q. And she was not an active member?
21 A. No, she was not. She was not mobilised. May
22 I just expand on that?
23 Q. No, there's no need.
24 Can we take it then that the right to shares
25 was not limited only to active duty soldiers of the
2 A. No, it was not limited to active members.
3 Shares were given to the elderly as well and to women.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 In answer to a question from the Prosecution
6 when discussing your movement from Podjele, according
7 to the transcript it seems as if when you left Podjele
8 you already knew that there was a roadblock at Ahmici.
9 My question is: When you left Podjele did
10 you know that there was a roadblock at Ahmici?
11 A. No, I did not.
12 Q. When did you learn about it?
13 A. I learnt about it at Nadoici.
14 Q. Can you tell us what is the importance of the
15 Busovaca to Vitez road?
16 A. It is the main communication route. I don't
17 know what you really mean, but it is the main road
18 leading to Zenica and Sarajevo, so it links those areas
19 with Zenica and Travnik.
20 Q. Is it of strategic importance?
21 A. I really couldn't say.
22 Q. But if you just said that that is the route
23 leading to the other towns, is it important?
24 A. It is important. I said that it linked
25 towns, Zenica, Sarajevo, and just at the crossroads
1 near Kaonik it links onto the Sarajevo to Zenica main
3 Q. One further question. When you saw Dragan
4 Papic in the period when you came across him he wore a
5 beard, didn't he?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Mr. President. I
8 have no further questions.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: We have no questions.
10 Mr. Males, thank you for coming to The Hague to testify
11 in court. You may now be released. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Puliselic, is the
14 next witness going to enjoy any protective measures?
15 Are you requesting measures?
16 MR. PULISELIC: No. No, Mr. President, no
17 protective measures.
18 (The witness entered court)
19 WITNESS: LJUBICA MILICEVIC
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Ms. Milicevic.
21 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Would you please make the
23 solemn declaration?
24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
3 seated. Counsel Puliselic.
4 Examined by Mr. Puliselic:
5 Q. Mrs. Milicevic, good morning.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Would you please introduce yourself to the
8 court and tell us your name, your surname, your place
9 and date of birth and your address?
10 A. My name is Ljubica Milicevic. I was born in
11 Krizancevo Selo on 13th of September, 1952.
12 Q. I would kindly ask you to speak slowly,
14 Can I have the assistance of the usher,
15 please, and can we have the aerial photo of Ahmici?
16 Mrs. Milicevic, on this aerial photograph
17 could you please point with the pointer that you have
18 in your hand to your house, the approximate location of
19 your house? Yes, you may remove your earphones and
20 approach the easel.
21 A. Yes, this is my house here.
22 Q. Thank you. You may sit down now.
23 Would you please tell us whose houses are in
24 the vicinity of your house and which Croats' houses are
1 A. Well, in the immediate vicinity of my house
2 there is the house of Ivo Papic, Pero Milicevic, Slavko
3 Milicevic, Rafael.
4 Q. And which Muslim houses are in the vicinity
5 of your house?
6 A. The house of Muharem Caucevic, for example,
7 Sutko Caucevic, Atif Ahmic's house, Latif Ahmic's
8 house, Hamo Hodzic's house and others.
9 Q. Thank you. You said you were born in the
10 village of Krizancevo Selo?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does that village have another name as well?
13 A. Yes, it's also called Donja Drubravica.
14 Q. So it's the same village, Krizancevo Selo or
15 Donja Dubravica?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. Could you tell us when you came to Ahmici?
18 A. I came to Ahmici 17 years ago.
19 Q. And up to what time did you live in
20 Krizancevo Selo?
21 A. I lived there until 1974.
22 Q. And after that? Where did you go after
24 A. I went to Zenica and I spent six years in
1 Q. So you came to Ahmici after living in Zenica
2 for a while?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the relations
5 between Croats and Muslims in Ahmici before the
7 A. Their relations were very good.
8 Q. What does that mean? Would people visit each
10 A. That means we got along very well all the
12 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about the
13 first conflict that occurred on the 20th of October,
14 1992, and if so, could you please tell us what you had
15 heard about the events of that day when the incident
16 broke out, whether you heard any shooting and so on.
17 A. At first it seemed to be like any other day,
18 everything was normal. However, in the early morning,
19 that is the night between the 19th and the 20th of
20 October, maybe around 5.00 a.m., I heard very loud
21 shooting. I was at home, together with my husband, my
22 two children and my mother.
23 Q. Do you know what it was all about? Did you
24 subsequently learn what the cause of the shooting was?
25 A. I was the last one to leave the area and I
1 was hoping that the things would calm down, but I
2 decided to leave the house, together with my children,
3 my husband and my mother.
4 Q. Could you tell us what time it was?
5 A. It was at about 5.20, 5:30. The shooting was
6 not very intense at first but it got very intense in
7 the meantime.
8 Q. I'm not asking you that. When did you leave
9 your house?
10 A. I left my house around 9.30. I was among the
11 last ones to leave the area.
12 Q. Did you know what the reasons were for that
13 shooting? Did you happen to learn that later on?
14 A. When I got to the shelter I learnt that the
15 night before a roadblock had been set up across the
16 road from the Catholic cemetery.
17 Q. On the road?
18 A. Yes, on the road.
19 Q. After this shooting incident, you said that
20 it occurred around half past five in the morning, apart
21 from it, apart from the shooting, did you hear anything
23 A. Yes, I did. My bedroom faces the village of
24 Ahmici, and from the direction of the mosque I heard
25 someone say, "Croats, surrender."
1 Q. So you think that it was coming from the
2 direction of the mosque?
3 A. Yes, but it was very foggy. I didn't see the
4 person, I only heard a voice.
5 Q. So it was a foggy day, it was a foggy
7 A. Yes, it was early in the morning, dawn.
8 Q. Normally can you see the mosque from your
10 A. Yes, from the yard and from the balcony.
11 Q. Would you hear the hodza calling for prayer
12 from the mosque?
13 A. Yes, I would.
14 Q. Do you remember how long the fog stayed in
15 the valley?
16 A. Until 9.00, half past nine.
17 Q. You said you left the house around half past
18 nine, together with your husband, your mother and your
19 two children.
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. Where did you go?
22 A. We went in the direction of the nearby wood,
23 which is some 30 metres away from our house.
24 Q. And where did you go after that?
25 A. We had been warned before when there was
1 Serbian air attacks that we could seek shelter in the
2 wood, but I went in the direction of the shelter. I
3 went to the shelter actually.
4 Q. Where was that shelter?
5 A. It was maybe 300 metres from my house.
6 Q. What is it exactly, is it a house?
7 A. Yes, it's a house. It has a basement and
8 it's a house that belongs to Bralo.
9 Q. Could you point to that house on the map, the
10 house of Anto Bralo, where you took shelter with your
12 A. Here. (Indicating)
13 Q. Thank you.
14 You stated that you had taken shelter there
15 before, during the Serbian air attacks?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Would Muslims also take shelter in that
19 A. Yes. Yes, they would.
20 Q. During the conflict that occurred on the 20th
21 of October, 1992, are you aware of any Muslims who left
22 the village of Ahmici?
23 A. Yes, I am.
24 Q. Did all of them leave the village of Ahmici
25 or did some stay behind?
1 A. Well, most of them left but they didn't stay
2 away very long.
3 Q. When did they come back?
4 A. The people from the area of Gornja Ahmici
5 came back first, but I think that within three days all
6 of them came back.
7 Q. Did Croats invite them? Did they call them
9 A. Yes, they did.
10 Q. Did anyone from the Croat leadership from the
11 municipality urge them to come back?
12 A. Yes. My uncle Santic was the mayor of Vitez
13 and he insisted that Muslims come back to the village.
14 Q. Are you aware of any complaints made by
15 Muslims to the effect that their houses, their property
16 had been plundered?
17 A. I don't know anything about that.
18 Q. You don't know or you don't think that such
19 incidents took place?
20 A. No, I don't think that such incidents took
21 place. I'm not aware of any complaints that people
22 made to that effect.
23 Q. What were the relations between Croats and
24 Muslims after the first conflict?
25 A. Well, we would say hello to each other but we
1 no longer visit each other that often, but friends were
2 not being neglected, of course.
3 Q. You personally continued seeing your Muslim
4 friends who were your best friends?
5 A. Well, I was on very good terms with all of
6 them, but my first neighbours there, my closest
7 acquaintances Ahmic, Causevic family, those who lived
8 in my vicinity.
9 Q. So you continued seeing each other?
10 A. Yes, they were still my friends.
11 Q. Do you remember whether during the first
12 conflict anyone was killed or wounded?
13 A. Yes, I remember Halid Pezer.
14 Q. Was there any Croat that was killed?
15 A. Yes, a person by the surname of Vidovic but I
16 don't know his name.
17 Q. We will now move to the second conflict, and
18 I have several questions about that conflict.
19 On the eve of the second conflict was there
20 anything that was indicative of what was going to
21 happen on the following day?
22 A. I didn't notice anything. Other people
23 didn't either. I spent the night at home and didn't
24 notice anything in particular.
25 Q. What about your husband? Was he at home?
1 A. No, he was working the night-shift so I was
2 alone with my children.
3 Q. So he was working the night-shift on the
4 night of the 15th and the 16th of April. Well, where
5 did he work at that time?
6 A. He was working in the Princip factory.
7 Q. What happened on the morning of the 16th of
8 April, 1993? What did you hear, what did you see?
9 A. Around 5:20 shooting started, and on that
10 occasion I didn't hesitate.
11 Q. Could you tell the direction of the
13 A. No, not exactly, because my impression is
14 that it was coming from all over the place.
15 Q. You said that your husband was not there on
16 that morning when the shooting started, that he was not
17 at home, that he was working. So what did you decide
18 to do?
19 A. I got up immediately, I took my children and
20 I left.
21 Q. Where did you go?
22 A. Well, I went in the usual direction, first in
23 the direction of the wood and then to the shelter.
24 Q. Before that, before you reached the shelter,
25 and you're referring to the shelter in the house of
1 Anto Bralo?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Did you encounter anyone on that morning?
4 A. Yes, I did. I saw Dragica Papic and Ivana
5 Ruzica Papic as well, Dragan, Marija Papic, Ivo Papic,
6 Goran Papic.
7 Q. Where did you see them?
8 A. I saw them in the wood.
9 Q. Could you tell us who Dragica Papic is?
10 A. Dragica Papic is Dragan's mother.
11 Q. What about Ivana?
12 A. She is his younger sister.
13 Q. So you saw them in the wood?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. So did you go to the shelter together?
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. So you reached the house of Anto Bralo, you
18 intended to go to the shelter?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. What did they say? Where were they going?
21 A. Well, Dragan and Ruzica, they continued in
22 the direction of Rovna. And his mother and his sister
23 went there. Well, they continued on the road; I didn't
24 know where they would stop.
25 Q. They didn't tell you anything where they were
2 A. No, they didn't.
3 Q. Did you notice or did you know that Dragan's
4 wife, Ruzica, was pregnant?
5 A. Yes, she was pregnant.
6 Q. On that day, did you see any other women and
7 children leave their homes?
8 A. Yes, yes, and I learned later on that they
9 had left with their children. So I didn't see them.
10 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the
11 whereabouts of Dragan Papic on that day, on the 16th of
12 April, and do you know where he was during the
13 following days? Do you know anything about that?
14 A. We were afraid that the water was polluted,
15 so I went to the well every day, and I would see Dragan
16 every day near the Radakovo Bridge.
17 Q. Where did you go to get water?
18 A. I went to the village of Rovna. There is a
19 natural source of water there, and I would go there.
20 Q. So it is not from the River Lasva, but from a
21 natural spring of water that was in the area?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. You said you saw Dragan near the Radakovo
24 Bridge; what was he doing there?
25 A. Well, we were afraid that the bridge would be
1 blown up, and that was our only means of escape, that
2 particular area.
3 Q. So there was a lot of shooting in the area?
4 A. Yes, there was a lot of shooting, and the
5 area was not safe.
6 Q. Did you see anyone else with Dragan on that
7 particular occasion when you went to fetch the water?
8 A. As far as I can remember, Ivo Vidovic was
9 there, and another person whom I didn't know.
10 Q. You said you'd gone to Gornja Rovna and that
11 you'd crossed the Radakovo Bridge in order to get to
12 the spring?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Did you notice any other people on the other
15 side, people who were watching over the bridge?
16 A. Yes, I saw Zvonko Santic there, and Jozo
17 Alilovic as well.
18 Q. Did you see anyone else with them?
19 A. There were other individuals who were there,
20 but I knew these two people.
21 Q. So you didn't know anyone else?
22 A. No.
23 Q. On the 16th of April, or later on, did you
24 get back to your house?
25 A. I would go to my house during the night, and
1 I would stay in the shelter during the day.
2 Q. So you only went to your house to check -- to
3 check the situation, and then you would go back to the
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. That evening, when you came to see your house
7 to see what had happened, did anyone come to you? Did
8 you have any contacts with anyone on that particular
10 A. On the following day, I went to --
11 Q. No, I'm asking you about that very same day,
12 the 16th of April: Did you go back to your house on
13 that day?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And did you see anyone there on that
16 particular occasion?
17 A. Yes, I saw Goran Papic.
18 Q. Why did he come to your house?
19 A. I wanted to spend the night there, and he
20 told me that the situation was not safe. My husband
21 was still at work. He couldn't come home, so I was not
22 really protected in any way. And he told me that it
23 would be better for me to go back to the shelter.
24 Q. So your husband could not come home; he spent
25 15 days at work?
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. So after the conflict had broken out, he had
3 to stay there?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. During the following days, did any soldiers
6 come to your house?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you recall the day of the 16th of April,
9 and do you recall how Dragan Papic was dressed on that
11 A. It was very dark, and the visibility was not
12 very good.
13 Q. When you met him?
14 A. Yes. All I could notice was that he had an
15 upper part of a camouflage uniform and he had civilian
17 Q. But when you went to fetch the water, was he
18 wearing the same type of clothes, the same as you had
19 noticed the previous morning? When he was standing
20 guard, was he wearing the same type of camouflage shirt
21 and civilian trousers?
22 A. I can't remember.
23 Q. Did you notice any insignia on the camouflage
25 A. No.
1 Q. When you went to the spring to get the water,
2 did he have any weapons while he was at the Radakovo
4 A. Yes, he had a rifle.
5 Q. What about the other guard? You said Ivo
6 Vidovic was there as well; did he have a rifle too?
7 A. Yes, he did.
8 Q. Do you remember what type of car Dragan had
9 during that period of time, 1992, 1993?
10 A. Well, I -- I don't easily distinguish between
11 cars. I had a Stojadin.
12 Q. Stojadin is a Zastava 101 type of vehicle?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. And Dragan was
14 repairing cars, so I know that he had a Stojadin as
15 well, because occasionally, when we needed, he would
16 give us some spare parts.
17 Q. Do you remember the colour of the car, his
19 A. Yes, it was a yellow car. Ours was white and
20 his was yellow.
21 Q. You were his neighbour; did you see him drive
22 any other cars?
23 A. Well, since he was repairing vehicles, he
24 would test them, and he would drive various vehicles.
25 Q. So he would try the vehicles after repairing
1 them, to check if everything was right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. Did you at any point in time see any kind of
4 weapon in front of the house of Dragan Papic,
5 anti-aircraft gun, anti-aircraft machine gun, or did
6 you hear anything about such weapons being there?
7 A. No, no, there is only one small road between
8 our houses.
9 Q. How far is your house from his house?
10 A. About 50 metres.
11 Q. Do you have any knowledge about any shooting,
12 any fire being opened from their house, from a sniper
13 rifle or any other type of weapon? Would you have
14 heard if such thing had happened?
15 A. Yes, normally I would have heard, but we had
16 left our houses.
17 Q. Yes, but even -- was there any shooting, was
18 there any fire that was opened?
19 A. No. No, I don't think so. I don't think
20 that anyone would let him do that.
21 Q. You told us who lived with you in your house;
22 you mentioned a couple of your neighbours. And I would
23 like to know whether you know Abdulah Ahmic.
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Do you know Muris Ahmic?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. How about Mehmed Ahmic?
3 A. I know him too.
4 Q. Could you tell us if they were related in any
5 way? Abdulah Ahmic and Muris Ahmic, for example?
6 A. They were cousins. Their parents were
8 Q. So Abdulah Ahmic and Muris Ahmic are
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. And Abdulah Ahmic and Muris Ahmic are cousins
12 to Mehmed Ahmic?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. I now want to ask you something about Abdulah
15 Ahmic. Could you tell us what kind of person Abdulah
16 Ahmic was? What was your impression of him? You used
17 to see him often?
18 A. Well, yes, I did. He is a very quiet
19 person. He is not very sociable; he's quite reserved.
20 But I don't think that he would harm anyone.
21 Q. Did you see him with other people, in company
22 of some other people?
23 A. No, very rarely.
24 Q. So not even in company of other Muslims?
25 A. No, not really.
1 Q. During this armed conflict, did you lose any
2 of your close relatives?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Who did you lose?
5 A. I lost my brother and my brother-in-law.
6 Q. What was the name of your brother?
7 A. His name was Rudolf Krizanac.
8 Q. Where was he killed?
9 A. He was killed at Bohine Kuce.
10 Q. Do you know approximately when he was killed?
11 A. He was killed on the 8th of January, 1994.
12 Q. Do you have any knowledge about other people
13 being killed there?
14 A. Yes, several people were killed there.
15 Q. Do you know approximately how many?
16 A. No, I wouldn't know that.
17 Q. You said that your brother-in-law was killed
18 as well; what was his name?
19 A. Slavko Milicevic.
20 Q. Where was he killed?
21 A. He was killed at Kuber.
22 Q. When? If you know that.
23 A. It was in 1994.
24 Q. You said you were born in Krizancevo Selo or
25 in the village of Dubravica; do you know what happened
1 in Krizancevo Selo?
2 A. Yes, I do. On the 22nd of December, 1993,
3 Muslim forces attacked the village, and they killed two
4 shifts of people. I think that 74 Croats were killed.
5 22 of them were from my family, from the Krizanac
6 family, and I know that 74 people were buried on the
7 same day.
8 Q. You said it was in late 1993?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. That is on the 22nd of December, 1993?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Who lives in the village of Krizancevo Selo
14 A. There are not many men left; most of them are
15 elderly people. One of my brothers was killed, but I
16 still have four brothers who live there.
17 Q. Was the village destroyed?
18 A. Well, yes, but -- and I think that people did
19 not come back for about one year. But most of the
20 houses were rebuilt in the meantime.
21 Q. How far is Krizancevo Selo from Ahmici?
22 A. About three kilometres.
23 Q. I have a few questions regarding Dragan
24 Papic. What could you tell us about Dragan Papic? Did
25 you know him well?
1 A. Yes, I knew him very well. We used to see
2 each other every day. And I can say that he's a very
3 sociable person, he's an easy-going person. He likes
4 to make jokes. He's not prone to any conflicts.
5 Q. Did you ever see or hear him quarrel with
6 anyone, or --
7 A. No, no, on the contrary. He always tried to
8 make people laugh.
9 Q. Was he on good terms with the Muslims?
10 A. Yes, of course. He made no distinction.
11 Q. Could you tell us who he was on particularly
12 good terms with among the Muslims?
13 A. As far as I know, he spent a lot of time with
14 Samir Causevic. For years.
15 Q. Were they of the same age?
16 A. Yes, they were the same generation.
17 Q. He's a Muslim, isn't he?
18 A. Yes, of course.
19 Q. Was he close with other Muslims later on?
20 A. More recently he met Nusret Paco, and he
21 spent quite a bit of time with him too.
22 Q. And who was Nusret Paco? Where did he come
24 A. Nusret is a refugee from Gorazde.
25 Q. Has he settled somewhere in your
2 A. Yes, he settled in Hamo Hodzic's house.
3 Q. Was this a weekend home?
4 A. Yes. Yes, I gave them the keys.
5 Q. So you held the keys of this man's weekend
6 home? And where did Hamo Hodzic live?
7 A. Across the road to me.
8 Q. I mean permanently?
9 A. He lived in Zenica.
10 Q. Did you mediate, in a sense, in that
12 A. Yes, I introduced them. They were of the
13 same age, they exchanged visits, they had an
14 understanding. They assisted one another.
15 Q. Did you notice anything in particular about
16 Dragan doing something helpful for Nusret Paco?
17 A. Yes. It touched me, because he was very
18 attentive of the baby. So Dragan and his wife brought
19 milk, because Paco had a two-month-old baby; and to
20 avoid the baby being given powdered milk, Dragan and
21 his wife would bring the baby natural milk.
22 Q. What happened to Nusret Paco?
23 A. He was killed.
24 Q. When?
25 A. On the 16th of April.
1 Q. He was killed, was he?
2 A. Yes. Unfortunately.
3 Q. Do you remember who buried him?
4 A. Ivo Papic.
5 Q. That's Dragan's father, isn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How were you personally affected by this
8 death of Nusret Paco?
9 A. We were deeply distressed, yes. His mother
10 came that morning and asked us to bury him.
11 Q. Do you remember Dragan Papic's wedding with
13 A. Yes, I do. I was there.
14 Q. Were there many Muslims present?
15 A. There may have even been more Muslims than
17 Q. Were they all on good terms? Did they have a
18 good time?
19 A. Yes, we all did, all of us together.
20 Q. Did anyone take photographs of that wedding,
21 of the party?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who?
24 A. Mehmed Ahmic.
25 Q. How did he record the event?
1 A. I think he had a video camera, and I think
2 there's a videotape of that wedding.
3 Q. Was it his camera?
4 A. Yes, it was his own property.
5 Q. Do you know whether Dragan Papic ever,
6 speaking to you or anyone else, said anything against
7 the Muslims?
8 A. I never heard him do so. I think he didn't
9 really have any understanding of politics. It did not
10 concern him.
11 Q. Afterwards would he mention in your company
12 Nusret and his death? Did he comment on it?
13 A. I know that he was horrified. He was very
14 sad. I visited his tomb myself. I missed him.
15 Q. So you do not recollect Dragan saying
16 anything that could be nationalistic, that could be
17 directed against the Muslims or any comments on
18 political issues?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What was his hobby? What was his main
22 A. Whose do you mean?
23 Q. Dragan.
24 A. You mean Dragan. Cars were his main hobby.
25 Q. So he repaired cars.
1 A. Whoever came to ask for his assistance. He
2 was happiest when working on a car.
3 Q. Do you know where Dragan Papic was employed?
4 A. In Sumarija, the forestry company.
5 Q. So this was a company based in Vitez?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know how long he remained employed in
9 A. Until the beginning of the war.
10 Q. Until the beginning of the war did Dragan
11 Papic wear a beard?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you see Dragan Papic here?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Do you see a beard on him?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Was the beard he used to wear bigger than
18 he's wearing now?
19 A. Yes, significantly bigger.
20 Q. Did he come to see you in connection with his
22 A. Yes. I cut it for him.
23 Q. Were there any remarks by people regarding
24 his beard?
25 A. Yes. His parents didn't like it, but he
1 considered it part of his image.
2 Q. Did you try to persuade him to shave it off?
3 A. Yes, I did. I had had enough of cutting it
4 for him.
5 Q. Do you remember when his wife Ruzica had
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. When was that?
9 A. On the 28th of April.
10 Q. How come you're so sure of that date the 28th
11 of April? What year was that?
12 A. That was '83.
13 Q. You mean '93?
14 A. Yes, of course, '93.
15 Q. What makes you so sure?
16 A. I go regularly to the birthday parties of
17 Dragan's child.
18 Q. What's the child's name, the one that was
19 born on the 28th of April?
20 A. The name is Marin Papic.
21 Q. Where was he born?
22 A. In Rijeka.
23 Q. Why was he born there? Why did Ruzica,
24 Dragan's wife, go to deliver her baby in Rijeka?
25 A. Because the midwife was a highly skilled one
1 and she trusted her. Ruzica trusted her.
2 Q. What was her name?
3 A. Ulfeta Luco.
4 Q. Is she a Muslim?
5 A. Yes, she is.
6 Q. Could you tell us something about Dragan's
7 father Ivo Papic? What kind of a man was he and how
8 did he treat the Muslims?
9 A. Yes, of course. For me and everyone else he
10 is, to this day, close to Muslims. He's a plumber by
12 Q. Do you know anything about the building of
13 the mosque in Ahmici?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Did the Croats of Ahmici give any kind of
16 assistance in the construction of that mosque?
17 A. I know Asim Ahmic, the owner, the mosque was
18 built on state-owned land, he asked permission from the
19 Croats, and I know that Hasim Ahmic also donated some
20 land for our cemetery, so that he was given permission
21 by the Croats and the mosque was built unhindered, with
22 the approval of Croats and Muslims, on state-owned
24 Q. Was there a big celebration when the mosque
25 was opened?
1 A. Yes, I was there.
2 Q. Were there many guests from other places
4 A. Yes, there were.
5 Q. Were there many cars and buses?
6 A. Yes. I know that the Croats allowed parking
7 space to be used for cars and buses that came.
8 Q. Do you know that Ivo Papic, Dragan's father,
9 actually worked on the construction of that mosque?
10 A. Yes. He fitted the plumbing for the mosque.
11 There's another mosque about 150 metres away and he did
12 the plumbing for that one too.
13 Q. So he did so free of charge?
14 A. Yes. That was his contribution to the
15 construction of the mosque.
16 Q. Are the Muslims returning to Ahmici?
17 A. Yes, they are.
18 Q. Has quite a number of them come back?
19 A. As far as I can tell, as many as 99 per
21 Q. Are they still asking Ivo Papic to do
22 plumbing work in their homes?
23 A. Yes, as far as I know. Wherever Muslims
24 returned, the -- Ivo repaired the water supply, and in
25 the Mehurici settlement which is also inhabited by
2 Q. So this is during the war?
3 A. Yes. Even now. Tolovici, Grbavica, Mehurici
4 Busovaca Ahmici. He does work on the water supply
5 system that is providing water for both Muslims and
7 Q. Did you ever see a flag on Ivo Papic's house?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. What kind of flag?
10 A. The Croatian flag.
11 Q. On which occasions was this flag hoisted?
12 A. On festivities like Christmas, Easter.
13 Q. On any other religious occasions?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did other Croats also fly flags?
16 A. Yes, they did.
17 Q. Did Muslims fly their own flags on their
19 A. Yes, they did, the crescent and star flag.
20 Q. You said that before the conflict with the
21 Muslims you would see Dragan in uniform, I think you
23 A. Yes, I did occasionally.
24 Q. Did you see what kind of uniform he had? Was
25 it complete uniform?
1 A. He would change. Most frequently he would
2 wear a forester's uniform, then a camouflage uniform.
3 Q. Did you see him wearing a black uniform
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Was it just the top part?
7 A. Mostly the top part.
8 Q. Were there any insignia on that black
10 A. Nothing that I noticed.
11 Q. Why did he wear that? Did he perhaps ever
12 mention the reason to you?
13 A. No. I never really found out. I didn't
14 notice any insignia. I never gave the matter any
15 thought actually.
16 Q. Did he perhaps mention that it was easier for
17 him to move around wearing those clothes?
18 A. Yes. He wore a camouflage uniform believing
19 he gained an importance thereby and he would have
20 lesser problems when moving around.
21 Q. Do you know how he obtained that black
23 A. I know I was having coffee at Dragan Papic's
24 house, it was summertime, and there is a table outside
25 and we were drinking coffee, and a relative of mine
1 came by. Dragan was repairing his car, and on the
2 bench there was a bag with something inside, and Dragan
3 put it on immediately and started working. But the
4 dark colour suited him, so I didn't make any
5 distinction whether it was a camouflage uniform or a
6 black uniform.
7 Q. But this dark uniform suited him because he
8 would get dirty repairing cars?
9 A. Yes. And he would move around in those
11 Q. Do you know of other young men putting on
12 similar camouflage uniforms or other kinds of
14 A. Yes, because they felt more comfortable.
15 Even elderly people who didn't belong to any military
16 units would wear such clothes.
17 Q. Did you notice any Muslims also wearing
18 camouflage uniforms without belonging to military
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Do you remember anyone in particular from
22 Ahmici, a Muslim, wearing a camouflage uniform? Can
23 you recollect anyone?
24 A. Fahrudin Ahmic, Fahran we call him. Yes,
1 Q. Where did Fahrudin Ahmic live?
2 A. Across the way to Marija Papic.
3 Q. Is he alive?
4 A. Yes, he is.
5 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I have
6 completed my examination-in-chief.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Puliselic.
8 You may have noticed that I have not objected to quite
9 a few leading questions you've put, and I have realised
10 that also the Prosecutor had no objection.
11 I wonder now whether the -- Counsel Pavkovic
12 can tell us whether any other Defence counsel is
13 prepared to cross-examine this witness.
14 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the other
15 Defence counsel do not have any questions for this
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So I will call
18 upon then the Prosecutor. Mr. Smith?
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Smith:
20 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours.
21 Q. Mrs. Milicevic, I appear for the
22 Prosecution. I appear with Mr. Frank Terrier and
23 Mr. Michael Blaxill, and I will it's my role in these
24 proceedings to ask you a few questions about the
25 testimony you've given today.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask counsel to
2 speak into the microphone, please?
3 MR. SMITH: Excuse me.
4 Q. And it's my role to ask you some questions
5 about the evidence you've given today. Do you
6 understand that? Do you understand that?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Mrs. Milicevic, when did you first discover
9 that Dragan Papic was indicted in relation to these
11 A. I don't know. I can't remember.
12 Q. Prior to coming to court today, have you
13 spoken to any other person, apart from the lawyers for
14 Dragan Papic in this case, about what you would be
15 saying in court today?
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. So you haven't spoken to Ivica Vidovic about
18 your evidence today?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. Or Zvonimir Santic?
21 A. No, no, no. I haven't met him at all.
22 Q. You mentioned a Zvonko Santic and that I
23 think you saw at the Radak Bridge. Who is Zvonko
25 A. My neighbour --
1 Q. And --
2 A. -- across the other side of the river.
3 Q. And is his full name Zvonimir?
4 A. I think it is. I call him Zvonko, but I'm
5 not sure of his full name.
6 Q. And have you spoken to Zvonko about the
7 proceedings prior to today?
8 A. No. I haven't seen him since the war,
10 Q. And Goran Papic, have you spoken to him about
11 your evidence today?
12 A. I haven't seen him even, no.
13 Q. You mentioned that on the 16th of April you
14 heard some, I think, gunfire at about 5.30, and then as
15 a result of that --
16 A. I said about 5.20.
17 Q. And as a result of that you immediately left
18 your house; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that is right. In the second conflict,
21 Q. And your husband was at work, but I think
22 your two children were still at home?
23 A. Yes, with me during the second conflict.
24 Q. And how old are your two children?
25 A. Sixteen. That was my son, he was sixteen,
1 and the little girl was eight at the time.
2 Q. And your son, was he in the village guard at
3 the time?
4 A. No, he was underage.
5 Q. Did your son have a rifle or a weapon of some
7 A. No, no.
8 Q. And your husband, was he in the village
10 A. Yes, yes, when he came back 15 days later.
11 Q. You are aware that Muslims and Croats from
12 the village of Ahmici and Santici patrolled the village
13 prior to the 16th of April; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And this -- when did this village guard first
17 A. When the Serb air force started.
18 Q. And that would have been about April 1992?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. In the beginning, the village guard, was it a
21 mixed guard with Muslims and Croats or were there two
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Were they two separate groups that worked
25 together, or, in fact, was it one group made up of a
1 combination of Muslims and Croats?
2 A. At first they were together. Afterwards they
3 separated. At first they were together.
4 Q. So at first there was a --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- one organisation?
7 A. Together. Yes, yes. Joint organisation.
8 Q. And in the beginning who was the coordinator
9 of the village guard?
10 A. I just know that they organised themselves.
11 They were self-organised.
12 Q. And what area did the village guard cover in
13 the beginning when it was a joint organisation?
14 A. Simply Ahmici, our houses; I don't know how
15 to put it. A small area, maybe 100 metres in
16 diameter. Something like that.
17 Q. The Croat residence from middle Ahmici, for
18 example, Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic, were they a part
19 of that village guard in the beginning?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. And that was the same village guard that your
22 husband belonged to?
23 A. Yes, yes, my husband was there, too.
24 Q. And you're aware of Mr. Nenad Santic, who
25 used to live in the village?
1 A. Santici.
2 Q. You know Mr. Nenad Santic? You knew him?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And he was in that same village guard that
5 your husband was in, and the Kupreskics; is that right?
6 A. Yes. Yes, that is right.
7 Q. So the village guard extended more than just
8 100 metres from your house; it included the area of
9 Ahmici and Santici and some parts of Pirici. Is that
11 A. Nadioci was separate. I don't understand.
12 Pirici? Pirici above the Kupreskic's houses were
13 Muslims. But I'm repeating, for a time we were
15 Q. And when did that village guard split
16 between -- on ethnic lines, between Croats and Muslims?
17 A. I would not be able to tell you the exact
18 date. I don't know.
19 Q. But after the conflict on the 20th of
20 October, in 1992, the village guard definitely split
21 after that; is that right?
22 A. I must repeat, I don't know; I don't know the
24 Q. I think you said --
25 A. I do not have any knowledge of it.
1 Q. I think you said in your evidence that after
2 the conflict on the 20th of October, relations in the
3 village between Muslims and Croats cooled somewhat.
4 A. Yes, that is so.
5 Q. And the fighting in that village would have
6 had quite a drastic effect on the people that lived in
7 the village?
8 A. Yes. Yes, they did.
9 Q. Prior to the 16th of April, in any event, the
10 Croat village guard operated outside of the Muslim
11 village guard? Is that right?
12 A. I don't understand the question.
13 Q. The Croats guarded the village separately
14 just before the 16th of April?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And your husband was a member of that village
18 A. Yes, he was. But on the evening of the 16th,
19 he went to work.
20 Q. And your husband had a weapon; is that
22 A. No. No.
23 Q. You said on the morning --
24 A. Because he was at work for 15 days, so he
25 didn't have one. No, he didn't.
1 Q. But you had one -- I'm asking whether he had
2 one at his house, at your house. Did he have --
3 A. In the second conflict? Yes, yes.
4 Q. You stated that you got up on the morning of
5 the 16th after you heard the shooting; I assume you got
6 up and left your house because you were scared. Is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. And you had no knowledge of any impending
10 conflict on the 16th?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. And you immediately went to Anto Bralo's
13 house, which I think is near Anto Papic's house?
14 A. Yes, it's close by.
15 Q. And did you go to Anto Bralo's house with
16 your son as well?
17 A. No, he stayed in the woods.
18 Q. And when he stayed in the woods, did he have
19 a weapon with him?
20 A. No. No, he's a child; they wouldn't let
22 Q. And why did he stay in the woods and not go
23 to Anto Bralo's house with you?
24 A. Simply he was an adolescent at the time, and
25 he didn't want to go with me, his mother.
1 Q. What did he say to you? What did he want to
2 in fact do?
3 A. What do you mean? I don't quite understand.
4 Q. Well, I assume that you went to Anto Bralo's
5 house for some personal safety.
6 A. Yes. Yes, and my little girl.
7 Q. And I assume that you would have been
8 concerned that your son would have had that same
9 personal safety that you wanted for yourself and your
11 A. Of course, of course.
12 Q. Did you ask him to come with you, and did he
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. So he wasn't particularly scared about what
16 was going on around in the village at that time? Would
17 that be right?
18 A. He was scared. He was.
19 Q. What was his purpose of staying in the
21 A. Because Goran Papic was there, his friend,
22 the same age. Ivo Papic.
23 Q. Could you mention again how many people you
24 saw in the forest when you first got there, before
25 going to Anto Bralo's house?
1 A. There aren't many of us there anyway. There
2 was Ivo and Goran, and that's all, as far as I could
3 see. But in the shelter, I saw Drago Josipovic.
4 Q. And you said earlier that you saw Dragica
5 Papic, Dragan's mother; Ivana, Dragan's sister; and
6 Ruzica --
7 A. Yes, yes. Yes, they were, but they left.
8 They went to Rovna. But I stayed in the shelter of
9 Anto Bralo, and Ivo, Goran, stayed behind.
10 Q. Did Dragan leave first from the group in the
11 forest, or did you leave before they did?
12 A. Together. Together.
13 Q. And so Ivo was left in the forest, Goran was
14 left there --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- your son?
17 A. Igor.
18 Q. And Ivo and Goran had weapons?
19 A. I didn't look. I was afraid, so I went on.
20 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I've just been
21 advised that it's 10.30. I'm happy to break here or
22 happy to continue.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Do you have many more
25 MR. SMITH: Probably about 20 minutes.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So let's have a
2 break now.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
4 --- Upon resuming at 11.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Smith?
6 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. I think we left off last time when you said
8 that you arrived in Anto Bralo's house on the 16th of
9 April, for your personal safety. Was Anto Bralo there
10 when you arrived at the house?
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 Q. And how old was Anto Bralo?
13 A. He's 45.
14 Q. And was he in camouflage uniform?
15 A. Yes, he was.
16 Q. Did you see him in the possession of a
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. You were at Anto Bralo's house for most of
20 the day?
21 A. Yes, I was, throughout the day.
22 Q. And Anto Bralo left the house throughout that
23 day; is that right?
24 A. Yes, he was.
25 Q. Did Anto Bralo have a moustache?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'd like to -- at the end of the day, I think
3 you stated that you went back to your house and Goran
4 advised you --
5 A. Yes, I did. At dusk.
6 Q. And who was at your house when you arrived
7 back there?
8 A. Nobody.
9 Q. Did someone advise you to go back to Anto
10 Bralo's house?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And who was that?
13 A. It was Goran Papic.
14 Q. And he was at your house?
15 A. No. No, he was not. He came.
16 Q. He came where?
17 A. He came to my house.
18 Q. Was he with anyone when he came to your
20 A. Yes, he had been in the wood -- I mean, he
21 was still in the wood with my Igor during the night,
22 and then they came to the shelter. Because they were
23 under-age children at that time.
24 Q. How many days did you stay at Anto Bralo's
25 shelter, if you can remember?
1 A. For about five or six days.
2 Q. I think you said that you went back to your
3 house every night of those five or six days.
4 A. Yes, every night.
5 Q. And what was the reason for that?
6 A. Because there was a lot of shooting, my
7 husband was at work, and I was alone, and I didn't feel
9 Q. Sorry, what was the reason for going back to
10 your house every night?
11 A. Well, I wanted to see the cattle. I had some
13 Q. So during the days, you're not able to say
14 what was happening at your house and other people's
15 houses in the area of Dragan Papic's house and your
16 other neighbours' houses?
17 A. No. I was at the shelter, and I didn't know
18 what was happening.
19 Q. And I think you said that you went to the
20 Radak Bridge every morning to get water.
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Did you do that every morning, or did you do
23 that most mornings?
24 A. Well, occasionally I would go there. I
25 wanted to help the woman who was at that house. That's
1 why I went to get water every day.
2 Q. And you said that when you went to the
3 bridge, you saw Ivo Vidovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And which side of the bridge was he on? Was
6 he on the Santici side, or the Donja Rovna side?
7 A. The Santici side.
8 Q. And I think you said you didn't recognise
9 anyone else on the Santici side.
10 A. Yes, I recognised Dragan Papic.
11 Q. Apart from Dragan Papic?
12 A. There was another person with him, but I
13 don't know his name. Someone unknown to me.
14 Q. Do you know a person called Dragan Vidovic?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You mentioned a person by the name of Nusret
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. A person that Dragan was friendly with. I
20 think you said that Dragan and Nusret assisted each
21 other prior to the conflict?
22 A. Yes. Prior to the conflict.
23 Q. And can you tell the Court how Nusret
24 assisted Dragan?
25 A. It was the other way around, because Nusret
1 was a refugee, and he had a small child, and the food
2 was not adequate. His conditions were not very good.
3 And Dragan was better off, and he showed his
4 understanding. He helped him. I helped him too, and
5 so did Dragan's mother and everyone else. Nusret was a
6 human being also, after all.
7 Q. And did Nusret assist Dragan with his repair
8 of cars?
9 A. Well, yes he did. Actually, I wouldn't know
10 that. I didn't know what they did when Nusret came to
11 see him.
12 Q. And you mentioned that Nusret was killed in
13 the conflict in Ahmici?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. You said that Ivo Papic buried him, and his
16 mother came over that morning, and I think it was the
17 morning of the 16th of April. Is that your evidence?
18 A. Yes, that's what I said. She came -- I'm not
19 sure whether it was on that morning, but she came to
20 me. She cried. She wanted to -- her son to be given a
21 proper burial, and I was crying with her too. I was
22 very sorry that such a thing had happened.
23 Q. But it was in the morning that Mrs. Paco came
24 to your house?
25 A. Yes, in the morning, and me and my son were
1 at home. It was very early in the morning.
2 Q. So you're not sure whether it was the 16th or
3 the 17th of April, the second or first --
4 A. No. No, I'm afraid I'm not.
5 Q. From what you've said to the court today, it
6 couldn't have been the 16th of April because you left
7 your house at 5.30 in the morning and went to the wood,
8 straight to Anto Bralo's house?
9 A. Yes, yes, because --
10 Q. So it had to be at the 17th of April or the
11 day after that?
12 A. The following day.
13 Q. So you were mistaken when you said it was the
14 16th of April?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I think Nusret's mother is Hankija Paco.
17 That's her first name?
18 A. Hankija, yes.
19 Q. And you've said to the court that you went to
20 the Radak Bridge in the morning and then it was only in
21 the evening that you went back to your house for the
22 four or five days after the 16th of April?
23 A. Yes, for about five or six days.
24 Q. However, there was one morning that you were
25 at your house the day that Hankija Paco came over.
1 A. Yes. On that morning I came to my house and
2 Hankija came to my house as well. It was very early in
3 the morning. I wanted to go to my house when there was
4 still fog.
5 Q. And I think Hankija Paco arrived at your
6 house, and you were quite concerned about your safety
7 when she arrived, the fact that a Muslim was at your
8 house; is that right?
9 A. Yes. That's correct, yes.
10 Q. And why were you concerned about your safety
11 because Hankija Paco arrived? Was it because she was a
13 A. No. No, I didn't have any doubts about her
14 at all.
15 Q. No, not you personally, but the fact that a
16 Muslim was at your house the following day. Did that
17 cause you some concern that if others, other HVO
18 soldiers, found a Muslim at your house, that could have
19 put you in some sort of trouble?
20 A. No. I even told Anto Bralo -- I mean, I
21 asked Hankija whether there was anyone at their home,
22 and she said yes, that the whole of her family was
23 there. And I asked her whether I could tell any HVO
24 member that they were there, and she said that it was
25 okay and that she said that they were safe. They were
1 escorted to safety.
2 Q. Did you say to her, when she arrived, "Why
3 did you come here? They might kill you now."
4 A. I understood her as a mother. She wished
5 that her son had proper burial.
6 Q. And was she concerned about her children,
7 Hankija, when she arrived?
8 A. Yes. She told me that I could say that they
9 were all at home. I asked her whether I could do
11 Q. Did you or your son tell her that she should
12 hide her children?
13 A. I simply asked her whether they were armed
14 and she said that they were not. Her children were no
15 longer very young, they were adults.
16 Q. Did Ivo Papic come to your house when Hankija
17 Paco arrived there?
18 A. No. She told that to me, and on the way to
19 my house she met Ivo and she asked him as well that her
20 son be given proper burial.
21 Q. Didn't initially Ivo say that he couldn't
22 bury your son -- sorry, Hankija's son?
23 A. Well, I don't know what he told her.
24 Q. And when was her son buried?
25 A. I believe that it is was two days after
2 Q. There was a large group of refugees that
3 lived near your house, with the surname Paco; is that
5 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. About how big was that family group,
8 A. Well, I think that there were at least 15 or
9 16 of them. They lived in three houses in my
11 Q. And a significant number of them were killed
12 on the 16th of April, are you aware of that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you know of Fehim Paco?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Zaim Paco?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Huso Paco?
19 A. Is that the father? No. No, I don't know
20 him. I was closest with Nusret and his family, his
22 Q. And Alija Sesef, he was a neighbour
23 to the Paco's; is that right?
24 A. Yes, he was.
25 Q. And he was killed on the 16th?
1 A. I'm referring to another Alija, an elderly
2 man, but I wouldn't know this one.
3 Q. Are you aware that about six of that group
4 that lived in those houses, those refugees houses, were
5 killed on the 16th of April?
6 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
7 Q. If we can just go back for a moment to the
8 first conflict when the Muslims were invited back by
9 the Croats. I think you said that the Muslims from
10 Gornji Ahmici came back first about three days later,
11 and then the Muslims from perhaps the lower area of
12 Ahmici came, returned after that.
13 A. Yes. I think that they were immediately
14 invited back.
15 Q. You said that Ivan Santic, which was -- I
16 think is your uncle, the mayor of Vitez --
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. -- he was involved in trying to organise that
19 the Muslims come back to the village; is that right?
20 A. Yes, that is right.
21 Q. What other figures -- what other political or
22 military figures from Vitez were also involved in the
23 invitation or the organising that the Muslims come back
24 to their houses?
25 A. I don't know that. I just know Ivan Santic
1 because he's a close relative of mine, and I don't know
2 anything about any other political figures.
3 Q. Were you aware of Pero Skopljak's involvement
4 from Vitez?
5 A. I know Pero, but I don't know anything about
6 his role.
7 Q. Were you aware of Mario Cerkez's role? Do
8 you know Mario Cerkez?
9 A. No, I don't know him. I've heard about him,
10 but I don't know anything about him or his role.
11 Q. Are you aware of any conditions or
12 arrangements that were put in place to allow the
13 Muslims to come back? And when I refer to that I'm
14 talking about the surrender, the Muslims surrendering
15 their weapons as a condition of them coming back to the
16 village. Are you aware of that type of condition being
17 in place?
18 A. No, I don't know anything.
19 Q. And at a local level, at the Ahmici-Santici
20 level, who were the main organisers or negotiators that
21 transmitted the invitation for the Muslims to come
22 back? Who from the village guard was involved in
24 A. I don't know who was involved in that. I
25 said that they'd been self-organised. There were very
1 few of us. Even I once participated in the village
2 guard. It was matter of self-organisation. People
3 agreed amongst themselves what best suited them, and
4 that's how I know that there was no single person who
5 was an organiser. There were no orders. We would
6 agree amongst ourselves as to who would stand guard, so
7 I cannot tell you anything about any organiser.
8 Q. But Nenad Santic was an organiser in the
9 village guard?
10 A. He lives far away from me, so I don't know
11 what exactly he did. I know what happened in my
13 Q. You mentioned that you had seen Dragan Papic
14 wearing black -- a black uniform that was given to him,
15 and you also mentioned that he was wearing a camouflage
16 uniform prior to the 16th of April.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And I think you said that he told you that
19 gave him a sense of importance.
20 A. Yes, it did, the camouflage uniform.
21 Q. Are you aware that he served on the front
22 lines prior to the 16th of April?
23 A. No. He was employed.
24 Q. So if someone said that he worked at the
25 frontlines prior to the 16th of April, are you saying
1 they would be incorrect or that you just don't know?
2 A. I know that prior to the 16th he was employed
3 and he had a very responsible position.
4 Q. So in your view, it's highly unlikely that he
5 ever went to the frontlines prior --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: "I can claim
7 this with responsibility."
8 A. There was no front line at the time.
9 MR. SMITH:
10 Q. You also mentioned that Dragan or -- sorry, I
11 withdraw that -- a flag would be hoisted on the house
12 of Ivo Papic, a Croatian flag, prior to the 16th of
14 A. Yes. Yes. Well, most of the time it was a
15 Croatian flag. Depending on the holiday, but for a
16 religious holiday it would be a Croatian flag.
17 Q. So in terms of ethnic communities, that's
18 where the Papic household and Dragan Papic, more
19 specifically, sympathies lied, with the Croatian
20 community in Bosnia?
21 A. With the Muslim community as well.
22 Q. Did he hang a Muslim flag -- sorry, was the
23 Muslim flag hung from the -- from Ivo Papic's house, as
24 far as you can remember?
25 A. No. I just know that Muslims celebrated
1 their Bajram in the same way that we celebrated ours.
2 Q. I think you stated that other people in the
3 village would hoist flags, or other Croats would hoist
4 Croat flags from their houses. Can you tell the Court
5 which other Croat households in Ahmici or Santici
6 raised Croatian flags in 1992 before the conflict?
7 A. I don't know anything about 1992. Slavko
8 Milicevic would also fly a Croat flag. I would have
9 done the same if I'd had one but I didn't. Other
10 people did as well.
11 Q. Do you know the names of those households of
12 other people that did it?
13 A. I don't understand.
14 Q. I'll only ask one last question on this, Your
16 You said that other people in your village
17 raised flags and put them on their houses. I'm asking
18 you, do you know the names of the households of the
19 Croats that did that?
20 A. As I told you, Slavko Milicevic did, Dragan
21 Papic, and again, I can say that I would have done the
22 same if I had had one. Everybody who had a flag did
23 the same, but mostly for religious holidays, for
24 weddings, for example, as well.
25 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
3 Counsel Puliselic?
4 Re-examined by Mr. Puliselic:
5 Q. Mrs. Milicevic, I only have a few questions
6 for you.
7 In your opinion, was that some sort of a
8 crime if the Croats hoisted their own flags on their
9 houses during their holidays and the Muslims hoisted
10 their flags during their holidays? In your opinion, is
11 that an offence or crime?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Isn't it something quite normal and
15 A. Customary. I respect the flag of any
17 Q. Let us make something clear regarding the
18 date when your husband, before the conflict or during
19 the conflict, I'm not sure, because the record differs
20 on this point -- in one place it is stated that your
21 husband went to work on the 16th of April, and in
22 another place it says the 15th of April. That would be
23 on the eve of the conflict. When, in fact, did your
24 husband go off to work?
25 A. Exactly on the 15th of April, in the
1 morning (sic).
2 Q. So on the 16th of April, when you heard the
3 gunfire, was your husband at home or not?
4 A. No, he was not.
5 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I hear that it
6 says "in the morning," that the husband went to work in
7 the morning, but according to what the witness said, he
8 went to work in the evening of the 15th of April. It
9 says the 15th "in the morning," but he went on the 15th
10 in the evening. He worked in the night-shift.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we will put
12 the record straight, yes. Thank you.
13 MR. PULISELIC:
14 Q. I wish to ask you once again, you said you
15 were in Anto Bralo's shelter for a few days. You also
16 said that every day you would drop by to see your
17 house. Let me ask you once again: Why did you go to
18 visit your house?
19 A. I simply went to see how things were and to
20 feed the livestock.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you know the exact date or are
22 you perhaps are not sure when Nusret Paco was buried?
23 A. I think it was the 19th.
24 Q. You think it was the 19th of April?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I have no
2 further questions.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you,
4 Counsel Puliselic. We have no questions.
5 Mrs. Milicevic, we are most grateful for you
6 coming to give evidence in court. You may now be
7 released. Thank you.
8 (The witness withdrew)
9 JUDGE CASSESE: We gather that -- actually,
10 we have been given an appeal -- a motion for appeal
11 filed by Counsel Puliselic, and in view of this motion
12 I think it's only proper for us to stay the proceedings
13 until Judge May is back. I think it's most likely that
14 he will not be able to come back tomorrow because he's
15 still ill, so we will resume our proceedings on Monday,
16 and depending on what the Appeal Chamber decides, or
17 the bench of three Judges, we will see what to do with
18 the three witnesses we have heard these days. It will
19 be for the Appeal Chamber to decide. For the time
20 being, I'm very sorry because we are wasting a day, a
21 full day plus an hour today, but I think this is the
22 only proper course of action.
23 Any comments? Prosecutor, no comment? All
24 right. So we will let you know whether by any chance
25 Judge May is able to come tomorrow, attend our
1 proceedings tomorrow. As I say, I doubt it, but
2 through the Registry we will let you know I hope
3 around, say, 4.00 this afternoon, so that you may know
4 whether we will sit here in court tomorrow. Otherwise,
5 we will resume our proceedings on Monday at 9.00.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
7 at 11.35 p.m. sine die.