1 Wednesday, 24th March, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
8 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
9 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.
11 Before we hear this witness -- you may sit,
12 you may sit -- before we hear the witness, I propose
13 that we very quickly deal with two housekeeping matters
14 at this point. First of all, the motion filed by
15 Counsel Susak about the testimony of General Blaskic.
16 I understand he is suggesting that we should admit into
17 evidence the transcript for one or two hearings where
18 General Blaskic testified. This is what you meant.
19 Now, I wonder whether the Prosecutor could set out his
21 Sorry, Counsel Susak would like -- very
22 briefly, because -- yes.
23 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, the point of this
24 motion is only to get the transcript from the 25th of
25 February, I think, 1993, and it relates to only one
1 segment, and, that is to say, a meeting between Blaskic
2 and Ivica Santic and Pero Skopljak and Nikola
3 Krizanovic. That is the only piece of information that
4 I'm interested in, in view of the new facts which
5 indicate that there was yet another meeting where Nenad
6 Santic is mentioned, Ivica Vidovic nicknamed Jevco, and
7 the others, and all of this in the house of Jozo
8 Livancic. I believe that this is also an important
9 point, so as to ascertain the actual state of affairs,
10 and on this basis, that meeting could be judged as
11 compared to the previous one. Thank you.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
13 Mr. Terrier?
14 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Mr. President.
15 Good morning, Your Honours. Regarding Mr. Susak's
16 motion, I think it is in the first place a matter of
17 principle, and the Tribunal, regarding a similar
18 motion, already took a negative decision, that is that
19 the witness, whether the transcript of a particular
20 witness could be admitted into evidence, could not be
21 completely -- because the witness could not be
22 completely interrogated by the parties. I think beyond
23 this principle, the matter, beyond this principle, that
24 is that we should always take the same decisions. I do
25 believe that the truth needs to be established, and I
1 wish that this transcript be joined to the documents on
2 the Tribunal. But I do not think we can take a
3 fragment of testimony, and it should be the testimony
4 in its entirety which should be included in the record;
5 that is, the whole of this testimony, all the counts to
6 which the Tribunal might be addressing.
7 However, this particular case that we are
8 talking about is not finished yet. It may yet be
9 completed within the foreseeable future, but it is not
10 yet. Therefore, we think that all of the dispositions
11 and all the exhibits to which the witness may be
12 referring should be added. I am referring both to the
13 examination-in-chief and to the cross-examination of
14 the witness.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: When you say "the whole of
16 the testimony," do you mean the entire testimony of
17 General Blaskic, or what?
18 MR. TERRIER: I think it would be advisable
19 that the context of the testimony be known, and it
20 might be dangerous, or perhaps hazardous, or perhaps
21 damaging, if only a fragment of this testimony were
22 admitted by the Tribunal.
23 (Trial Chamber deliberates)
24 JUDGE CASSESE: The Trial Chamber is of the
25 view that this testimony as such, the transcript of the
1 testimony given by General Blaskic on the 25th of
2 February, cannot be admitted into evidence. Counsel
3 Susak has a very easy way out, namely, simply to call
4 General Blaskic to give evidence here in court after he
5 has finished his testimony in the Blaskic case. Then
6 he can be questioned about this specific issue and
7 other issues relating to Ahmici.
8 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, of course I
9 understand what you say, but I'm seriously concerned.
10 Why is the Prosecutor evading the date of the 15th of
11 April at 22.00 hours, when this meeting was held, and
12 this was on the eve of the conflict on the 16th? That
13 is what I wish to say in this context, and we are going
14 to decide whether we are going to call Blaskic as a
16 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you.
17 So therefore the motion is not granted, and
18 the Trial Chamber has indicated how the Defence counsel
19 for Josipovic could settle the matter by, as I say,
20 calling General Blaskic.
21 (Trial Chamber deliberates)
22 JUDGE CASSESE: In addition, as Judge Mumba
23 has just suggested to us, it is of course open to
24 Counsel Susak to call the other persons who attended
25 that meeting. You could call them to give evidence in
1 court in addition to Mr. Blaskic.
2 All right. Now, to move quickly to the other
3 question, I remember we left a question in abeyance,
4 namely, when we should call the three Court witnesses
5 that were mentioned a few days ago. I wonder whether
6 Defence counsel have, possibly in consultation with the
7 Prosecutor, come to some sort of agreement.
8 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, do you remember we
9 discussed this issue of when we should call them?
10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, the
11 Prosecutor said that any date would suit him. Since we
12 are talking about two of our witnesses, we think it
13 would be advisable to call them at the very beginning,
14 that is to say, when the trial recommences in May. As
15 far as we are concerned, they can be called then, but
16 then I have another proposal related to Toma Alilovic.
17 That is the witness who was supposed to testify today.
18 He did not come. The Defence believes that he is quite
19 an important witness because he was in the house with
20 Jozo Alilovic on the 16th of April, and the witness who
21 testified in this Court said in his statement, in
22 response to the Prosecutor, that he saw Tomo Alilovic
23 in the house as well. In his testimony, this witness
24 says that Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic came on that day,
25 and we believe that this testimony would be very
1 important for us.
2 However, the witness has not appeared, and we
3 would like to suggest that this witness be called as a
4 Court witness when the trial recommences in May. He is
5 in Germany. If possible, we are going to submit this
6 in writing, if you cannot rule this way. Thank you.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. As for the court
8 witnesses, yes, we do intend to summon them for the 3rd
9 of May. Actually, the three of them. Not only the two
10 you just suggested but also the third one.
11 As for Mr. Tomo Alilovic, you didn't explain
12 why he is not coming, and so we don't see why he should
13 be turned into a court witness.
14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: We do not even know why
15 he's not coming. We have been in touch with him, and
16 we've been asking him to come for quite some time now,
17 and I think in a way he's been rejecting to do so. On
18 the other hand, I think that in order to ascertain the
19 factual state of affairs it is indispensable to have
20 his testimony.
21 What I'm trying to say is that he is avoiding
22 to appear before the court. We do not have any
23 information as to his incapacity to appear, but we
24 think that in order to ascertain the material truth,
25 that is to say, what actually happened on that day, his
1 statement is very important.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Now, we do appreciate that
3 his statement is important. On the other hand, we
4 don't want -- this practice which we started here of
5 calling court witnesses should be -- lead to abuses.
6 The more so because, as you may remember, we started
7 off thinking of court witnesses for those people who,
8 since they belonged to a particular ethnic group, were
9 rather reluctant to come over if called by Defence
10 counsel. So for the sake of safeguarding the rights of
11 the Defence, we thought we should take over and call
12 them as court witnesses. But as I say, in this
13 particular case we don't see why we should take action
14 as such.
15 We could ask you to make inquiries and try to
16 approach the witness or a potential witness and try to
17 understand why he's not coming. If he refuses and
18 gives you convincing reasons, you could probably ask
19 the court to subpoena this witness. Since he's in
20 Germany, we could issue a subpoena. But as I say, we
21 don't want to turn him into a court witness.
22 Therefore, for the 3rd of May, for that week
23 starting on the 3rd of May, and we have five working
24 days, we could hear the three court witnesses plus,
25 hopefully, Mr. Tomo Alilovic, plus one or two witnesses
1 the Defence intend to call. Two more, yes. Yes, six
2 or seven witnesses altogether.
3 All right. We may now move on to our next
4 witness. I think it is Mr. Fafulovic.
5 Mr. Fafulovic, I'm sorry that you had to stay
6 there while we were discussing procedural matters. Mr.
7 Fafulovic, good morning. Would you please make the
8 solemn declaration?
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit
14 Counsel Radovic?
15 WITNESS: ADIL FAFULOVIC
16 Examined by Mr. Radovic:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Fafulovic. First of all,
18 would you please introduce yourself to the Court. That
19 is to say, give your name, surname, your father's name,
20 the date of your birth, and your address.
21 A. Good morning. I am Fafulovic. I was born on
22 the 20th of December, 1965 in Travnik. I live in
23 Vitez, in a smaller village called Sofa, Kruscica.
24 Q. Is there a house number?
25 A. Yes, 69. My father's name is Mustafa.
1 Q. Tell me, how many brothers and sisters do you
3 A. I have two brothers and a sister.
4 Q. At the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993,
5 who did you live with? Who is your family?
6 A. My family are my wife, my father, and
8 Q. At the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993,
9 did you have a job? If you did, where?
10 A. When? At the beginning of what?
11 Q. At the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993,
12 did you have a job?
13 A. Yes, I had a job. I worked in the work
14 organisation Slobodan Princip Seljo in Vitez.
15 Q. Until when?
16 A. Until the outbreak of the conflict.
17 Q. The first conflict or the second conflict?
18 A. The last conflict, the 16th of April.
19 Q. Tell me, what are you by religion?
20 A. I'm a Muslim by religion and a Romany by
22 Q. Do you know Zoran Kupreskic?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Do you know Mirjan Kupreskic?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Where did you get to meet them?
2 A. I met them while we were still working in
3 this same work organisation where they worked too, but
4 I got to know them better when I got involved in folk
5 dancing in 1982.
6 Q. Tell me, concerning this folklore, what
7 position did they have?
8 A. Zoran Kupreskic, he was a choreographer, he
9 taught us how to dance. Mirjan played the accordion,
10 and they also danced.
11 Q. What was the ethnic composition of this
12 folklore group?
13 A. The ethnic composition of this group of ours
14 was mixed. There were Muslims, Croats and Serbs.
15 Q. Until when? Until when was the composition
17 A. It was a mixed composition almost until the
18 outbreak of the conflict.
19 Q. Tell me, do you remember a performance at the
20 beginning of 1993 on Bajram?
21 A. Yes, I remember.
22 Q. This was a performance in Mahala, in the
23 Muslim settlement, on the occasion of the holiday of
24 Bajram. Do you remember what you danced?
25 A. We danced dances from all over the former
2 Q. Did you dance dances that belonged to the
3 Muslim or Bosniak people?
4 A. Yes, we did.
5 Q. At that time, at the end of 1992 and the
6 beginning of '93, did you ever see Zoran or Mirjan
7 Kupreskic in military uniform?
8 A. No, never.
9 Q. Did you ever see them carrying weapons?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Tell me, when the war was over and when
12 shares were being given out, did you get any shares?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. You got these shares as what? Were you a
15 member of the HVO?
16 A. I was in an HVO unit.
17 Q. Did you have a uniform?
18 A. We had uniforms belonging to the civilian
20 Q. Did any members of your family get killed
21 during the war, injured?
22 A. Yes. My brother, he lost his leg. He's 100
23 per cent disabled. My father was wounded in both legs
24 and in his right hand.
25 Q. The village that you said that you live in is
1 predominantly populated by what population?
2 A. It is mostly the Romany population.
3 Q. Are you saying it's not Muslims, Bosniaks, or
4 Croats, they're exclusively Romany?
5 A. Yes. Well, more or less exclusively Romany.
6 Q. The folklore group that Zoran and Mirjan
7 Kupreskic belonged to, did it continue to operate after
8 the war?
9 A. Yes, it did, because I continued to dance as
11 Q. Did they join a new society now?
12 A. Yes. Now it is the Croatian cultural
13 society, Napredak.
14 Q. Tell me, how did this happen that you came to
15 join this society? You're not a Croat, and how come
16 you joined this cultural and arts society? At whose
17 initiative did this happen, and could you describe all
18 of this for us a bit?
19 A. This was in 1994. Zoran sent me a message
20 that I should come so that we could discuss something.
21 When I came to rehearsal they had already started
22 dancing, and I came and a colleague of mine, Delic
23 Ahmed, who is not here, he also sent him a message to
24 come, and when we came he asked whether we wanted to
25 dance again, and we accepted this and we continued to
2 Q. Tell me, Delic Ahmed, he's a Bosniak or a
4 A. He's a Bosniak.
5 Q. So Zoran tried to talk him to dance again as
6 a Bosniak?
7 A. Well, he didn't talk him into it because he
8 simply made him an offer because he danced before the
9 war too.
10 Q. All right. So he did not talk him into it,
11 but he just made him an offer and this one accepted; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. Would you tell us, do you remember when you
15 last saw Zoran before the outbreak of the war, if you
17 A. I can't remember, but this was probably at
18 rehearsal, something like that.
19 Q. You do not recall the date?
20 A. No, I do not recall the date.
21 Q. Tell me, what did you do a day before the war
23 A. I was at work.
24 Q. When?
25 A. I used to work in the morning anyway, and I
1 came home at 3.00 p.m.
2 Q. Tell me, how did you find out that the war
3 broke out on the 16th?
4 A. Well, I was at home. I was getting ready to
5 go to work. In the morning the shooting started, so I
6 knew that the war began. I knew that something was
7 wrong. I was taken by surprise. It's as simple as
9 Q. You said that you were mobilised in the civil
10 defence. Did I understand you correctly?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us whether you were mobilised in
13 the civil defence immediately, on the day the war broke
14 out, or a bit later?
15 A. We were included later. When the war broke
16 out, we were there in the village. For four or five
17 days no one touched us. After that, since no one came,
18 we stayed there. The Croat side was closer to us
20 Q. Oh, so that is how you opted for the Croat
22 A. Yes, we stayed there.
23 Q. Tell me, how many days after the outbreak of
24 the war were you included in the civilian defence?
25 A. It was around the 20th, I think.
1 Q. Can you find your village on this map?
2 A. I'll try, if I can.
3 Q. All right. If you cannot orient yourself,
4 then you're simply going to say so and we're going to
5 give up on this exercise. Would you please get up and
6 take the pointer that is somewhere around there, pull
7 it out, and try to find this and show it to us?
8 A. I think it's somewhere around here
10 Q. Could you please stand to the side a bit and
11 show this to the Court? Is that where your village
12 was, where you lived?
13 A. (Indicating)
14 Q. All right. Thank you. Tell me, when the war
15 stopped and when you all met once again, did you also
16 have guest performances outside Bosnia-Herzegovina with
17 this folklore group?
18 A. Yes. That is precisely why Zoran called us
19 in, because there weren't enough members. He asked us
20 to come, and he explained to us that night that we had
21 to get ready, the entire group, I mean, because we were
22 supposed to have several concerts in town and also
24 Q. Where was this elsewhere?
25 A. Elsewhere was in Switzerland and Zagreb.
1 Q. Did you go to Zagreb?
2 A. Yes, we did.
3 Q. Did you go to Switzerland?
4 A. Yes, we did.
5 Q. Yes, I know you did as a group, but you
6 personally, did you go? Did you personally go?
7 A. No, I personally did not go.
8 Q. Why not?
9 A. Well, very short notice was given, so we
10 couldn't get all the documents we needed.
11 Q. I see. Now, if you were to be asked about
12 the attitude of Mirjan and Zoran Kupreskic towards
13 persons of a different ethnicity, what would you say?
14 Were they persons who hated Muslims, who did not want
15 to have anything to do with Muslims, or were they of a
16 different orientation, so to speak?
17 A. I think that they were always the same. They
18 never made any difference between us as a group and
19 others in terms of ethnicity. I think that telling
20 proof of this is the fact that he called me and this
21 other colleague of mine, Ahmed Delic, to continue
23 As far as Mirjan is concerned, at rehearsals,
24 during the break he would play Muslim, and Serb, and
25 Croat dances, and then we would dance to that music in
1 order to get going.
2 Q. Did you perform during the war?
3 A. No, we did not.
4 Q. So the Serb and Muslim music was only used to
5 get ready for the actual rehearsal; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, thank you very
8 much. I have no further questions. I do not think
9 there were too many questions.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there
11 are no other Defence counsel wanting to question the
13 Mr. Terrier?
14 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Several questions, not very many.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Fafulovic. My name is
18 Franck Terrier, and I'm counsel for the Prosecution,
19 and I should like to ask you some questions regarding
20 your testimony.
21 You told us that you were a member of the
22 Romany community. Could you please tell us if this
23 affiliation entailed any consequences in the
24 municipality of Vitez that we are concerned with, that
25 is, in '92, '93. I mean socially, or with regard to
1 employment, or perhaps politically. I am not asking
2 you with regard to the accused. I'm asking you about
3 the life, about the public and political life in the
4 municipality of Vitez at the time. Did your particular
5 affiliation entail any consequences?
6 A. Not really, socially speaking. I was
7 employed with that army company, Slobodan Princip
8 Seljo, you know that, and the important thing was to
9 have money so I have some means of livelihood. As for
10 politics, we're not really much concerned with it. I
11 mean, the Romany generally are not interested in it.
12 Q. Could you please tell us if, during the
13 conflict which broke out between the Muslim and the
14 Croat community towards the end of '92 and the
15 beginning of 1993, did the Romany community take part
16 or, rather, did it opt for one side or the other, or
17 what did it do?
18 A. What do you mean? Was it neutral? I do not
19 understand the question.
20 Q. I'm asking you simply this: In the conflict
21 which broke out in 1992 and 1993, did you and other
22 members of your community take sides? Did you support
23 one or the other?
24 A. Yes, we did. We joined the Croatian army
25 since we were there.
1 Q. Were you a member of the JNA?
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. Were you a member of the Bosnian army?
4 A. I was a member of the Territorial Defence
5 during the conflict with the Serbs.
6 Q. Until when?
7 A. Until the beginning of the conflict.
8 Q. When do you think -- could you tell us the
9 date when, to your mind, the conflict began?
10 A. With Muslims?
11 Q. Yes, I understood that that was what you
12 meant by "the conflict." Do you know the date? You
13 told us that you remained a member of the Territorial
14 Defence until the beginning of the conflict, so could
15 you please tell us, when did the conflict begin?
16 A. On the 16th of April, until the conflict with
17 the Muslims.
18 Q. And what did your activities until the 16th
19 of April involve?
20 A. What do you mean?
21 Q. What were your activities? What did you do
22 on the 16th of April and the following days?
23 A. On the 15th of April, as I told you, I was
24 working, and I am a cook, a qualified cook, and I
25 worked as a cook. On the 16th, I was at home already.
1 Q. And what happened? Did something happen that
2 day, in your view?
3 A. Yes, of course it did.
4 Q. Will you please tell us in a few words, what
5 was it that happened?
6 A. Well, that was in the morning, and I was
7 getting ready to go to work, and suddenly I heard a
8 whiz of shells, and bullets fired from rifles, and
9 things like that.
10 Q. And what else do you remember of that day,
11 the 16th of April?
12 A. Well, we were then all at home, that is, in
13 our locality. Nobody went out at all. We stayed in
14 until Croatian soldiers came, and they requested that
15 we stay there.
16 Q. And did you stay there?
17 A. Yes, we agreed to.
18 Q. Did that mean that you sided with one side?
19 A. Well, we had to accept one side. The Muslims
20 did not come first. These came the first, so we sided
21 with them. We spent some five or six days at home, and
22 we were there and nobody laid a finger on us, so we
23 accepted or cooperated with them.
24 Q. You are not saying that you were forced to
25 cooperate with the Croats. Does that mean that you
1 were detained on the 16th of April?
2 A. No, we were simply there. The circumstances
3 were such it was between the Croat and the Muslim
4 side. That is important. Because of our safety, they
5 came, and we accepted them because we are right
6 between -- in between the Muslims and the -- between
7 the Muslims and Croats. That is where the -- how shall
8 I call it -- the demarcation line is.
9 Q. What happened in the hours that followed this
10 contact with the HVO, or the following days? I'm
11 referring to you personally. What did you do?
12 A. Well, we agreed to everything. We were at
13 home in the house, I and two brothers and father and my
14 uncle and my aunt. We talked there, and we reached an
15 agreement, and we accepted, like the majority of others
16 who were in the village there.
17 Q. Mr. Fafulovic, I don't quite understand.
18 What did you accept, you and the members of your
19 family? Could you tell us what it is that you agreed
21 A. Well, we agreed to come under the Croat army
22 because they were the only ones who offered us
23 protection and safety, so we agreed to be with them
25 Q. Right, and in practical terms, what did it
1 mean to be with them? What did you do?
2 A. You mean during the conflict?
3 Q. On that day and in the days that followed.
4 A. Well, that day, we were there, indoors, and
5 the next day we moved a bit higher up. That is, we
6 were not in our village. We pulled out to a higher
7 place, to a hill, and that is where we practically
8 spent almost the whole war. We were also accommodated
9 in houses there.
10 Q. What did you do there in the course of the
12 A. We were mobilised, and I was a member of a
13 labour platoon. Not only me, I mean, everybody else
15 Q. Could you please explain to us, what is a
16 labour platoon?
17 A. Well, a labour platoon is -- it was made of
18 several of us, not only Romany. There were also Croats
19 who were digging trenches and cross-trenches.
20 Q. Right. Mr. Fafulovic, can I then sum up your
21 testimony correctly if I say that on the 16th of April,
22 you were approached by the HVO forces who asked you to
23 join them, you agreed to -- I don't know whether you
24 agreed of your own free-will or not, at any rate, but
25 you joined them and then you were sent to dig the
2 A. Roughly, yes.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
4 MR. RADOVIC: My learned friend is
5 insinuating something to the witness which he did not
6 say. He said that on the 16th, they contacted the
7 witness. He did not say they were contacted by the HVO
8 on the 16th of April, but later, five or six days
9 later, said the witness.
10 So will you please not lead the witness, but
11 remember what he said. Thank you.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: But the Prosecution asked a
13 question. He asked the witness to say if that was so,
14 whether this was what he said, whether it reflected the
15 truth, and it is up to the witness to say "yes" or
16 "no." I think that nobody was forcing the hand of the
18 MR. TERRIER: I was about to ask the
19 question, yes. I shall rephrase my question.
20 Q. On which date, Mr. Fafulovic -- you must have
21 already told us, but I'm asking you to repeat it -- on
22 what date, exactly, were you contacted by the HVO
23 forces which asked you to join them?
24 A. I cannot remember the exact date, but it must
25 have been five or six days after the conflict broke
1 out, but we were mostly -- all of the time we spent in
2 the village, and nobody came.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Fafulovic.
4 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions,
5 Mr. President.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
7 Counsel Radovic?
8 MR. RADOVIC: Only one question.
9 Re-examined by Mr. Radovic:
10 Q. When you spoke about fighting, that is about
11 the 16th of April, could you please describe the
12 fighting to us. Was it heavy fighting? Or if you did
13 not see it, was it intense fire, or what? In one
15 A. Well, it was early in the morning, more or
16 less. First, one heard guns two or three times, and it
17 was mostly bullets fired from rifles.
18 Q. Did the fire come only from one side or was
19 there shooting from various sides?
20 A. Well, I could not really tell because I was
22 Q. All right. Thank you.
23 MR. RADOVIC: No further questions.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
25 I have a question for the witness.
1 Mr. Fafulovic, you said that you saw, on many
2 occasions, Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic. My question is
3 as follows. On what occasions would you usually meet
4 Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic? What sort of occasions?
5 Simply when you went to the folklore group? Or other
6 occasions, say, at work, or in the street, or -- could
7 you tell us?
8 A. Well, it was mostly at work, and folklore,
9 when we danced. Then we socialised in coffee pubs and
10 things like that.
11 Q. Did you ever see them or talk with them in
13 A. No, never.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Therefore, where do you
15 normally meet them? You said at work or a folklore
16 group, and where was it? In what particular locality?
17 A. It was mostly in the company where I worked
18 because I was a cook there. So during lunchtime, when
19 I would distribute lunch, they would come to have
20 lunch, and folklore, when we danced, in the cinema hall
21 in Vitez.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. Thank
23 you so much for testifying, and you may now be
24 released. Thank you.
25 A. Thank you.
1 (The witness withdrew)
2 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand we are going to
3 hear Mr. Veljko Kato (sic)? Yes? Cato. Cato.
4 Because now you didn't put the accent. I
5 mean, this is your fault. I remember you insisted so
6 much when the Prosecutor produced these documents, and
7 now we never find these wonderful accents so we can
8 understand whether you say "Kato" or "Cato."
9 (The witness entered court)
10 Anyway, good morning, Mr. Cato. Would you
11 please make the solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit
17 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you, Your
20 WITNESS: VELJKO CATO
21 Examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Cato. Are you comfortable,
23 and are your earphones all right?
24 Will you please tell us your name?
25 A. My name is Veljko Cato. I was born on the
1 24th of July, 1960, in Vitez. I'm a Serb by ethnic
2 origin. I was born in Vitez, and I've lived in Vitez
3 all my life.
4 Q. What is your address? Where do you reside?
5 A. Hrvatske Mladosti 45.
6 Q. Tell us, what did you do in 1992? That is,
7 rather, where did you work, and what were you at that
9 A. In 1992, I worked as a head salesman in the
10 furniture store in Vitez.
11 Q. Until when did you work there?
12 A. I worked there until August '92.
13 Q. What did you do after that, and why did you
14 stop working there?
15 A. After that, I asked for my -- I went on a
16 holiday, but I had to report to the company so they
17 could keep a record.
18 Q. So, actually, you were laid off?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why were you laid off? What happened to that
21 store of yours?
22 A. Because in the warehouse of my company, they
23 now placed humanitarian relief and medicines that were
24 brought, so all the storage space we had was used for
1 Q. So those were medicines, donated medicines?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. These medical supplies, they were used for
4 all ethnic groups and all structures in Vitez; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So as this humanitarian relief was stored in
8 your store. Were you then included in some
10 A. Yes. I was included in the civil defence,
11 the Territorial Defence, because I had the keys to the
13 Q. Did the Territorial Defence pay your salary?
14 A. Yes, on one occasion.
15 Q. After that who paid you?
16 A. After that my company continued paying out my
17 salary because I was still their employee.
18 Q. Could you tell us specifically when you
19 received your salary from the Territorial Defence? Was
20 it when it finally fell -- that is, when the Croats
21 left the Territorial Defence in October or November?
22 A. No, no. It was earlier than that. I believe
23 it was September. I do not remember exactly, but I do
24 think it was September.
25 Q. That job which had to do with the control of
1 those medicines, that is something that you did until
2 the beginning of the war; is that so?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did you do then when the war began?
5 A. When the war began, well, then I was not
6 working for my company any more.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel speak
8 up? We cannot hear her.
9 A. When the war began I was with the first aid.
10 Q. What did you do there?
11 A. I was a driver. I drove a vehicle.
12 Q. So you were incorporated in the medical
13 service; is that so?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Until when?
16 A. Until -- I don't remember exactly but it must
17 have been July of 1993.
18 Q. What did you do then?
19 A. Then I was incorporated in the HVO.
20 Q. You were on the front line?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As a soldier?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You can say what you like. I do not really
25 have to ask you everything, so you can say whatever you
2 Tell us, since you were of Serb ethnic
3 origin, did you have any problems in this regard after
4 the elections, say, that is, since late 1990 until the
5 conflict broke out?
6 A. No, I did not have any problems.
7 Q. Were there any problems concerning the Serb
8 ethnicity in the territory of the municipality of
10 A. No, there were no problems.
11 Q. What happened in Tolovici, in the village of
13 A. In the village of Tolovici? I don't recall
14 exactly whether -- I don't remember if there was a
15 conflict, but the Serbs left Tolovici in 1992.
16 Q. Do you know who they clashed with, I mean,
17 Serbs from Tolovici?
18 A. Serbs from Tolovici had a conflict with
20 Q. That village was completely evacuated. The
21 Serbs fled and left the village?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were there any other areas around Vitez that
24 you know have been abandoned by Serbs under the Muslim
1 A. No, there were no other areas.
2 Q. What were you doing on the 15th of April,
4 A. On the 15th of April, '93, I went to report
5 to my company and then, together with Zdravko Vrebac, I
6 dropped by the store where Mirjan Kupreskic worked.
7 Q. Where is that shop?
8 A. That shop is in the building belonging to
9 Vucjak, in the southern part of the town.
10 Q. When did you get there and how long did you
11 stay there?
12 A. We got there around 12.00 and stayed there
13 until about 3.00, except that Zdravko Vrebac purchased
14 things for his shop straightaway and went back
16 Q. What did Zdravko Vrebac have?
17 A. At that time, Zdravko Vrebac had a coffee bar
18 called Set.
19 Q. Who did you find in that store?
20 A. In that store we found Ivo Grabovac, Gavro
21 Mujcibabic, and Batric Krgovic.
22 Q. What happened then? Did you talk? Did you
23 sit down?
24 A. Then we moved to a part -- to the storage
25 space there, and we had a couple of drinks and talked.
1 Q. Did you talk politics, political tension,
2 political problems in Vitez?
3 A. No, we did not discuss politics or the
4 political situation in Vitez. We simply told jokes and
5 things like that.
6 Q. After that day, did you see Zoran and Mirjan
8 A. No. No, I did not see them.
9 Q. Did Mirjan Kupreskic go on working after the
10 cease-fire of 1994?
11 A. Yes, he did.
12 Q. Do you remember the month?
13 A. Mirjan Kupreskic began to work some 10 days
14 or 15 days after the cease-fire.
15 Q. As what? Do you know where he worked?
16 A. Same job which he held before, that is, in
17 the Vucjak building.
18 Q. Do you know if he worked there without
19 interruption, that is, throughout '94, '95, '96?
20 A. Yes, he did work there without interruption.
21 Q. Do you know where Zoran Kupreskic worked, and
22 when did he resume working there? Did you see him?
23 A. Zoran Kupreskic went on working -- resumed,
24 continued working immediately after the conflict,
25 perhaps a month or so later, and he worked up there at
2 Q. When did you meet Zoran and Mirjan
3 Kupreskic? How long have you known them?
4 A. Zoran Kupreskic, I met in 1978, when the
5 cultural folklore society, Slobodan Princip Seljo, was
6 founded. Mirjan Kupreskic, I met in 1982 when he came
7 back from school and joined the cultural folklore
8 society Slobodan Princip Seljo.
9 Q. Where did Mirjan Kupreskic attend school?
10 A. Mirjan Kupreskic attended school in Trstenik,
11 in Serbia.
12 Q. Do you remember who was the chairman of that
13 cultural folklore society, SPS?
14 A. Their last -- the President of the cultural
15 society was Senad Besic, and the last chairman of the
16 society was Zaid Hidic.
17 Q. These two persons, Senad Besic and Zaid
18 Hidic, are they Muslims or Croats?
19 A. They're Muslims.
20 Q. When was the name of the society changed?
21 Why was it done and when were other societies set up in
23 A. After the elections, the cultural society,
24 Slobodan Princip Seljo, was renamed the City Cultural
25 Folklore Company.
1 Q. Were there some other companies after the --
2 were they set up after the elections?
3 A. After the elections in Vitez, we had
4 Preporod, the Muslim cultural folklore company, and the
5 Croat one called Napredak.
6 Q. What was the difference between them?
7 A. Well, the difference was that the Napredak
8 Croat cultural company included members of the Croat
9 people. Preporod brought together members of the
10 Muslim people, and the town cultural company of Vitez
11 remained mixed.
12 Q. In other words, these were mono-ethnic
13 companies exclusively, that is, the Croat one, that is,
14 the Muslim one?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Tell us, how did the people in this cultural
17 society of yours socialise? You came there for
18 rehearsals, and did you see them apart from these
20 A. Yes. We would see each other after the
21 rehearsals. We would socialise. We went to each
22 other's homes when our children had birthdays and on
23 all other occasions.
24 Q. Did you celebrate your national holidays
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you attend weddings? Were there any
3 mixed marriages within the society?
4 A. Yes. Yes, there were mixed marriages within
5 the society. Nevzudin Ahmic married Vesna Pavlovic.
6 Zoran Kupreskic married a girl who danced in our
7 society too. There were marriages there among the
9 Q. Did you call on one another over the
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall where you were for Bajram in
13 1993, and with whom?
14 A. Bajram 1993? Zoran Kupreskic, with his wife
15 Mira Kupreskic; Mirjan, with his wife Ljubica; and I
16 with my wife Lenka. We all went to Mustafa Dzidic's
17 for Bajram in Mahala.
18 Q. Mustafa Dzidic is a Muslim; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Tell me, did you go to each other's homes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you attend each other's weddings, and
23 were you best men at each other's weddings, and
24 godfather's to children and things like that?
25 A. Yes. When Ljubica, Mirjan Kupreskic's wife,
1 was supposed to have her first baby, Mirjan Kupreskic
2 told me that if he would get a son that I would be his
3 godfather, and that if he had a daughter, that my
4 mother -- daughter would be the godmother. Since the
5 first baby was a girl then my wife was the baby's
7 Q. What did you think about this offer? What
8 did it seem like to you?
9 A. I was pleased by the offer because godparents
10 are supposed to be friends, good friends, but there was
11 something strange about it because I am a member of the
12 Orthodox Church and I was supposed to be godparent in a
13 Catholic church, and that was a kind gesture by Mirjan
14 Kupreskic. When he said, "We'll take care of all of
15 that. The important thing is that we are good
17 Q. All right. Tell us, you've known Zoran and
18 Mirjan Kupreskic for about 20 years. Can you tell us
19 what kind of people they are?
20 A. Yes, I've known them for about 20 years.
21 They're very honest, family men, people who are always
22 ready to help others.
23 Q. What were they interested in? What were they
24 involved in?
25 A. They were mostly interested in folklore, in
1 dancing, and in socialising. Mirjan Kupreskic also
2 played in restaurants and at weddings. That is to say,
3 they were only interested in music, dance, and
5 Q. Can you tell us what their attitude was
6 towards the members of other nationalities, other
7 ethnic groups? The way that Mirjan Kupreskic behaved
8 to you, is that the way the two of them behaved towards
9 the Muslims as well?
10 A. Their attitude was the same towards Muslims
11 and all others. Mirjan Kupreskic's best man was also a
13 Q. Do you know the persons who they were close
14 to from the Muslim community?
15 A. They were close with Fahran Ahmic, who played
16 the drums in our society, and all the others who danced
18 Q. Tell us one more thing. Until the war, you
19 were involved in folklore. How often did you have
20 rehearsals, how many times a week?
21 A. Twice a week we had rehearsals, and if we
22 were supposed to go out for a guest performance then we
23 would have more rehearsals than that.
24 Q. Did you perform and rehearse all the way up
25 to the outbreak of the conflict, the 16th of April,
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know when Zoran and Mirjan started
4 playing and dancing at the folklore group again after
5 the war?
6 A. We got together immediately after the
7 cease-fire, after the conflict.
8 Q. Who got together there, this cultural
10 A. Again, we had the core of the old dancers
11 there with us, Croats, Serbs, Muslims, Romany, and all
12 of those who wanted to continue working.
13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Very well. Thank you.
14 I have concluded.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there
16 now is cross-examination by the Defence counsel.
17 Mr. Blaxill?
18 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President, Your
19 Honours. Good morning, counsel.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
21 Q. Good morning to you, Mr. Cato. My name is
22 Michael Blaxill. I'm one of the Prosecution attorneys
23 assigned to this case, and I have just, literally, a
24 handful of questions to ask you, if I may.
25 On the 15th of April, 1993, did you see
1 Mr. Zoran Kupreskic at all?
2 A. In 1993, I did not see Zoran Kupreskic.
3 Q. On that day, you said that you did see
4 Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic, and you left Mirjan's place of
5 work at about 3.00 in the afternoon; is that correct?
6 A. On that day I saw Mirjan Kupreskic, and we
7 were together about two to three hours.
8 Q. I believe you said that you left there about
9 3.00 in the afternoon, and Mirjan Kupreskic stayed on
10 at his place of work; is that right?
11 A. I left the shop around 3.00, and Mirjan
12 Kupreskic stayed at his place of work.
13 Q. The next day, the 16th of April, 1993, can
14 you tell us where you were, please, sir?
15 A. On the 16th, I was at my home.
16 Q. Did you see either Mr. Zoran or Mr. Mirjan
17 Kupreskic during that day, the 16th of April, 1993?
18 A. I did not see them.
19 Q. Did you see either of them on the following
20 day, the 17th of April of 1993?
21 A. On the 17th of April, 1993, I didn't see
22 either Mirjan or Zoran.
23 Q. Do you remember when was the next time you
24 did, in fact, see Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic?
25 A. The next time I saw Zoran and Mirjan
1 Kupreskic was about a month or a month and a half
3 Q. You said that for a period of time you worked
4 in first aid, in driving for medical aid; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell me who organised your work, or
8 who commanded the sort of unit you worked for of
9 medical-aid drivers?
10 A. Medical-aid drivers had their work organised
11 by the Territorial Defence.
12 Q. Do you know the person within that
13 Territorial Defence who had that responsibility? Do
14 you know the name?
15 A. I do not recall the name.
16 Q. I believe from about July 1993 you were then
17 engaged in fighting on the front line; is that correct,
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How long did you remain as a soldier at the
21 front lines?
22 A. I was not a soldier at the front line. I was
23 there at home. I was on the line at my home until the
24 cease-fire in February.
25 Q. During your period of being thus deployed at
1 your home in the defence of your home territory, do you
2 recall seeing Mr. Zoran or Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic at all?
3 A. I remember seeing them then because I went to
4 see them when their father died.
5 Q. Did you have any form of regular contact with
6 them during that period, or was that just the one
8 A. That was the one occasion when I went. We
9 did not have any contact.
10 Q. I'm obliged. Thank you, sir.
11 MR. BLAXILL: I have no further questions,
12 Mr. President. Thank you.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
14 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,
16 Mr. President.
17 Re-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
18 Q. Mr. Cato, tell us why people did not go to
19 Ahmici often during the war and why people from Pirici
20 and Santici didn't go to Vitez very often. What was
21 the situation like there?
22 A. The situation was such that one could not
23 pass that way. There were war operations going on,
24 there were snipers, and the road was not passable. So
25 when one went, one had to go on foot, taking another
2 Q. Do you recall where the actual front line was
3 in Ahmici -- or rather in Pirici and Santici? Was it
4 close to the village?
5 A. I do not recall, but I think it was close to
6 the village.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: We don't have any questions
10 for the witness.
11 Mr. Cato, thank you for testifying. You may
12 now be released.
13 (The witness withdrew)
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Let us call the next witness,
15 Marko Martinovic.
16 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, if I may
17 interpose for a moment, I do have an observation in
18 relation to this next witness. The Prosecution have
19 not been provided with any form of summary relating to
20 the potential evidence of the witness, and as I recall
21 the general terms of agreement some time ago, when my
22 learned friend, Mr. Terrier, was dealing with the
23 Defence directly about this issue, essentially we said
24 that we would not insist on such statements or
25 summaries primarily for character witnesses.
1 I am just wondering whether, therefore, my
2 learned friends would be in a position to confirm that,
3 as there has been no summary delivered, is the evidence
4 of Mr. Marko Martinovic to be restricted purely to
5 issues of character, and indeed within that context?
6 We have heard the word "character" used in a different
7 context, as to propensity for conduct, but I mean
8 genuine character witness. Perhaps that could be
9 clarified because, obviously, I would have an objection
10 to proceeding without summary if that is not so.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
12 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Your Honours, we told
14 Mr. Terrier earlier on that this was a character
15 witness only. We hadn't even talked to this witness
16 earlier ourselves. We simply brought him in to say
17 what he thought about these men because he knew them
18 well. So our colleague, Mr. Terrier, agreed on that
19 occasion with this, so he did not insist on a summary.
20 But we have another problem because our next
21 witness will be coming in at 10.30, so please, could we
22 have the break now and then have him testify after that
23 because he will be coming in at 10.30, and then we can
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. When you speak of
1 the next witness, are you thinking of Marko
3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: He is not around? He is not
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: He is not.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will take the
8 usual 30-minute break now.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
11 (The witness entered court)
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning,
13 Mr. Martinovic. Could you please stand and make the
14 solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit
20 Counsel Radovic?
21 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 WITNESS: MARKO MARTINOVIC
23 Examined by Mr. Radovic:
24 Q. Mr. Martinovic, we have all woken up, so we
25 can begin, can we?
1 A. We can.
2 Q. Would you please introduce yourself to the
3 Court first, that is to say, your name, surname, your
4 father's name, your date of birth, and your address?
5 A. I'm Marko Martinovic. I'm a writer. I was
6 born on the 8th of March, 1933. My father's name is
7 Ivo. I was born in Travnik, and I now live in Vitez.
8 Q. You said that you were a writer. Are you a
9 member of a writer's association or something?
10 A. Yes, I'm a member of two associations. I'm a
11 member of the Writer's Association of Croatia.
12 Q. And the other one?
13 A. The other one is of Herceg-Bosna, the
14 Association of Writers of Herceg-Bosna.
15 Q. Tell me, as a writer, what kind of literature
16 have you been writing?
17 A. I've mostly been writing short stories. I've
18 written poetry too. I've also written essays. I was
19 also involved in journalism.
20 Q. So these features, reports, and journalism,
21 do you consider that to be journalism for newspapers
22 only or for the electronic media as well?
23 A. I mostly worked for newspapers, and I also
24 worked for a local TV station and made reports for
1 Q. These reports and these newspapers that you
2 worked for, were you also active in 1992, and before
3 the war, in 1993, and after the war broke out?
4 A. Well, you know, I also worked in the post
5 office, and I also worked as a journalist. I wrote
6 about culture, and I recorded interesting people in
7 villages and interesting crafts and arts that were
8 dying out. I also made some amusing shows,
9 entertainment, where we all talked to each other
10 nicely, Muslims, Croats, Serbs.
11 Q. So tell me, in your reports and in your
12 literary work, did you advocate any political views or
13 did you write neutrally in terms of politics?
14 A. I never advocated any political views,
15 naturally, except if something was more in the interest
16 of the Croat people. I do not have such stories,
17 reports, or any writings that would fan hatred.
18 After the war, I got a golden prize in Zagreb
19 for a book of short stories that was published, and
20 also the reviews published were very flattering, and
21 they emphasised my goodness, my humanism. I also heard
22 Muslims say that they liked the book. Although I
23 talked a bit about the war, I talked about the
24 cease-fire more, and attempts made to have a
1 Q. To have a reconciliation?
2 A. Yes, to have a reconciliation too. The name
3 of the book is "Jesus in the Basement."
4 Q. It's a pretentious title, isn't it?
5 A. Well, yes. I spent a lot of time in the
6 basement too.
7 Q. Tell me, do you know Zoran and Mirjan
9 A. Yes, I know Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic. I've
10 known them for a long time.
11 Q. Where did you meet them?
12 A. I met them as people who were involved in
13 cultural activities. They were involved in the
14 cultural society of Slobodan Princip Seljo. They
15 played and danced there. Then in '91, after the
16 elections -- I don't know what year this was -- it was
17 chained into the society of -- the town society.
18 Q. In this cultural and art society, Slobodan
19 Princip Seljo, was this a mono-ethnic society or a
20 multi-ethnic society?
21 A. Slobodan Princip Seljo was a multi-ethnic
23 Q. When they sang and danced, was it only songs
24 and dances of one ethnic group, or all the nations and
25 nationalities of the former Yugoslavia?
1 A. They played and danced everything from
2 Macedonia to Slovenia, and they also wore national
3 costumes from Slavonia, from Sumarija, Serbia, and
4 also --
5 Q. Did they ever wear a fez?
6 A. Yes. That's this Bosniak costume with a
8 Q. After the elections in 1991, did you join
9 political developments in Vitez in any way? I'm not
10 asking about culture. I'm asking you about politics.
11 A. I was never involved in politics but, as I
12 said, until the present day, I have not been a member
13 of any political party, but I'm one of the founders of
14 the Croatian cultural society called Napredak. As soon
15 as it was founded in 1991 or, rather, it existed even
16 before that but it was banned.
17 Q. When did it exist, until when?
18 A. Well, you know what? I'll try to give some
19 brief information about this. In 1902, this cultural
20 society was founded.
21 Q. You mean in the days of Austro-Hungary?
22 A. Yes. At that time, there were four cultural
23 societies, one of the Jews, one of the Muslims, one of
24 the Croats, and one of the Serbs, and that's the way it
25 was until 1948 when all of these societies were
1 abolished, that is to say, all of those that belonged
2 to an ethnic group. Naturally, after the elections,
3 these societies were renewed, that is to say, these
4 ethnic societies.
5 Q. Do you know who are the people who renewed in
6 Napredak in 1991?
7 A. Of course I know. I did, and Franjo
8 Kurevija, Fra Bozo Blazevic, Zdravko Pavlovic. There
9 were quite a few of us. We had an initiative
10 committee, and I thought that in that way one could
11 strive for one's interests and one culture and not by
13 Q. Did I understand you correctly that you were
14 one of the co-founders of this renewed cultural society
15 of Napredak?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. As one of the refounders, you weren't really
18 a founder because it was first founded in 1902. Did
19 you have any contacts with Mirjan and Zoran Kupreskic?
20 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did, on several occasion.
21 Q. With Zoran or with Mirjan?
22 A. With both, one and the other.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. I tried to get them to come to Napredak.
25 Q. Why?
1 A. Because they were true masters, and we needed
2 choreographers, and musicians, and dancers. As the
3 cultural and art society of Napredak, we did not have
4 people of this kind. Although, that is not the only
5 point, to have folklore, but we're also supposed to
6 publish books and to study history, et cetera.
7 Q. So you're talking about this cultural and art
8 society, and you've been using an abbreviation; haven't
10 A. Yes. Yes, I've been using this abbreviation
11 for cultural and art society, but they didn't want to
12 join us, you see, and I was sorry.
13 On several occasions I had a heated
14 discussion. I can't remember. Once we had a
15 performance at the cinema and Napredak organised it,
16 and we asked them to dance, and they didn't want to
17 dance under the name of Napredak. This was already in
18 1992. Then I intervened, and the others wouldn't let
19 them at all, and I intervened and -- I intervened so
20 they could perform under the name of the Town Society.
21 They danced at the time with Muslims, and Serbs, and
22 others, and all that.
23 Q. Tell me, did they explain why they didn't
24 want to go to Napredak, why, or did this question
25 remain pending?
1 A. Well, they did not like this division into
2 national groups because they lived and worked together
3 for some ten-odd years and they didn't like it this
4 way. They didn't want to have a mono-ethnic society
5 and become part of it.
6 Q. Tell me, do you know whether they also
7 socialised with members of other ethnic groups?
8 A. Of course they did. Until 1993, we all
9 socialised together because I liked also to be with
10 those artists. We would sit and have a drink or two
11 and so. Until, one might say, the first day of war,
12 everybody socialised.
13 Q. Do you remember one day before the war -- and
14 we shall take at the beginning the war. The war began
15 on the 16th. So I'm referring to the eve of it, that
16 is the 15th of April. What were you doing then?
17 A. I could tell you every minute.
18 Q. No. I'm not asking you about every minute.
19 What were you doing then?
20 A. I was out in a village. I was making a story
21 about blacksmiths. Then I went home, had luncheon that
22 afternoon. I went to the coffee bar Set and there I
23 sought musicians who were with them. I saw Mirjan
24 there. It was around 4.00 or 5.00. It is a coffee bar
25 which does not accommodate more than four or five
1 people. You can just sit at the bar and that's it. So
2 we mostly, who had something to do with various arts,
3 that is, we met there.
4 Q. Tell us, were there any Muslims there in that
6 A. Yes, there was. Fahrudin Ahmic. I think
7 he's a drummer. I saw him on the -- in the afternoon
8 of the 15th of April.
9 Q. Do you know anything about their activities
10 after the war in that cultural society, now that you're
11 in Napredak, because there are no other such companies;
12 are there?
13 A. No, there are no other companies.
14 Q. Do you know if they also reactivated,
15 animated, other people to join the society after the
17 A. After the war, they joined Napredak because
18 there was no other such societies. That was the
19 aftermath of the war. But they were very active in
20 their society, and they contributed a great deal to the
21 study of our folklore. There were -- I think there
22 still are some Muslims in our folklore company.
23 Q. Are there any Serbs there?
24 A. Yes, there are Serbs.
25 Q. Are there any Romany?
1 A. Yes, there are Romany too.
2 Q. Do you know anything about what they did when
3 they heard they had been indicted by the International
4 Criminal Tribunal in The Hague?
5 A. My impression was the following: After the
6 war, I saw them much more often than before the war.
7 When we heard about the indictment and, again, we
8 naturally were in a cafeteria, because where else?
9 Everything begins and ends in a coffee bar, and you
10 know what? I've been taking very many notes during the
11 war because these were things that interested me, and a
12 book I'm writing about the war perhaps will explain
13 certain things. Perhaps it will explain them to me
15 But as regards these two, well, naturally --
16 I don't know. They were flabbergasted. I asked
17 them -- I was trying -- I put out some tentacles to
18 learn more from them about these things, but I could
19 not learn anything from them, nor can I do it now. As
20 I look at them, I simply could not believe that they
21 are indeed what the indictment purports them to be. I
22 really don't see how they could do it.
23 Q. What kind of notes were you taking about
24 Ahmici, for what?
25 A. Well, it's for my writing.
1 Q. So you want to write something about --
2 A. Yes. I want to write something about those
3 characters, about those people, or anything.
4 Q. You didn't get any useful information from
6 A. No information. I didn't even have the
7 impression that they played any important role or that
8 they knew anything. That is what I wanted to say.
9 Q. Did they perhaps think that they should
10 establish contact with somebody in The Hague Tribunal
11 to clarify their position?
12 A. I would not know. I do not know all the
13 things that they did. What I do know is that they
14 could not believe they had been accused. I don't
15 really know what steps they took.
16 Q. But do you know if a letter was written, a
17 letter to The Hague, about them?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know that they wrote a letter through
20 a journalist, Zvonko Cilic?
21 A. I think they did.
22 Q. What?
23 A. Wrote a letter of protest, but I don't
24 remember that letter. It was a long time ago, three
1 Q. You don't remember the contents of the
3 A. No, I don't.
4 Q. Do you perhaps remember --
5 A. Well, you know, I read papers every day
6 and ...
7 Q. Do you know anything about that first
8 conflict that took place?
9 A. The first conflict, and the second one too
10 completely astounded me. I was in the post office
12 Q. But you yourself did not notice anything?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. And finally, will you tell us, in your
15 literary language, how would you describe Zoran and
17 A. Well, it's much easier for me to put it on
18 paper than speak because I'm not a good speaker, but I
19 would describe them as good people, very dear to me,
20 very broad-minded, interested in arts in general.
21 With Zoran, I had an experience. When I
22 heard that he had been accused, he borrowed from me
23 books on oriental philosophy, Maharishi, Si Baba, and
24 he wrote a lot about that. I think only a good man can
25 do that. Yes, of course, he is a Catholic, but he also
1 likes the writings of somebody -- or Si Baba or
3 Mirjan, I know him as a married fellow, as a
4 gay fellow. We often played billiards together.
5 Q. But you know them. Could you even imagine
6 that they are people who could kill people?
7 A. Well, that's what I tried to say when they
8 learned of the indictment. So naturally, we were all
9 flabbergasted because I simply cannot believe that such
10 people could do such a thing.
11 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you very much. I have no
12 further questions.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill.
14 MR. BLAXILL: No cross-examination. Thank
15 you, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: No cross-examination. No
18 Thank you, Mr. Martinovic. I assume it you
19 don't want to re-examine because there's been no
21 Mr. Martinovic, thank you so much for giving
22 evidence in court. You may now be released.
23 (The witness withdrew)
24 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, we were planning
25 Tomo Alilovic for today, but he did not turn up. So we
1 have no more witnesses for today.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we will
3 adjourn, but before doing so, let me suggest -- I
4 assume you will call the accused as witnesses at the
6 Now, as you know, we will resume our
7 proceedings on the 3rd of May, first of all with the
8 three court witnesses and then with the witnesses to be
9 called by Counsel Krajina.
10 Since Counsel Krajina intends to start with
11 the president of the Supreme Court of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I believe that's what you said.
13 However, having read again the two judgements he is
14 expected to comment on, I wonder to what extent we
15 really need his testimony. It depends on what you
16 intend to ask him because I honestly think those two
17 judgements are hardly of any relevance to us.
18 I hope you are not going to ask him questions
19 about his notion of persecution or the notion of
20 persecution laid down in the case law of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina because we are not particularly
22 interested in that notion. We will have to apply the
23 notion of persecution as it is laid down in our Statute
24 and in public International Law.
25 So could you please explain to us once again
1 on what particular points do you intend to call the
2 President of the Supreme Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina in
4 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, we already gave
5 an explanation at the outset when we moved to that
6 effect, and we also indicated why we believed that his
7 testimony would be useful in these proceedings. On the
8 basis of that motion, which was accompanied by the
9 reasons for it, and as far as I know, the Trial Chamber
10 approved the summoning of this witness and his
11 testimony before the court.
12 I may add that we simply wanted to indicate
13 what is the judicial practice in Bosnia-Herzegovina
14 with regard to the crime of persecution of civilian
15 population in time of war, and because there were such
16 cases in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the precedent of the
17 Supreme Court does have inclination, naturally, what is
18 the judicial practice, what kind of facts are required,
19 what kind of elements are required to define the
20 persecution of civilian population and, therefore, on
21 which basis may people be charged with the persecution
22 of the civilian population, and which are the sanctions
23 envisaged by the Criminal Code of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 We also believe that this kind of information
25 would be useful to this Tribunal because we think that
1 the elements required to qualify something as a crime
2 and has possibility for the kind of crime in that
3 country whose nationals are charged with them, we
4 thought that it would be useful if the court had this
5 information so as to clarify problems which exist both
6 de facto and in jure with the problem, the problem -- I
7 mean, persecution of the civilian population, the
8 qualification of this crime, and the responsibility for
9 this crime.
10 In a nutshell, that is what we thought should
11 be material to this case. I do not think that the
12 testimony would take too much time, and we think that
13 it will be very useful. Thank you very much.
14 (Trial Chamber deliberates)
15 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, Counsel Krajina,
16 yes, the President of the Supreme Court of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina will be allowed to give evidence in
18 court, only on the judicial practice of courts in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina concerning persecution, but this
20 evidence should be given briefly, in a concise way, and
21 then it will be for us to decide what relevance, if
22 any, to give to this evidence, because, as you know, in
23 principle, we have to apply only our Statute and
24 international law, customary and treaty law. We are
25 duty-bound to look into the judicial practice of the
1 former Yugoslavia only as far as sentencing is
2 concerned, under Article 24(1) of our Statute.
3 So I very much hope that you will stick to
4 these guidelines when the President of the Supreme
5 Court will be called here.
6 Are there any other matters to be discussed
7 before we adjourn until the 3rd of May?
8 The Prosecutor has nothing? No?
9 The Defence?
10 I hope that the Defence counsel will hand in
11 a list of witnesses for the 3rd of May, to be called as
12 from the 3rd of May, by, say, the 26th of April, I
13 wonder, if you don't mind, so that we have a few days
14 to prepare.
15 The Defence counsel will then provide the
16 Prosecutor and the Court with this list around the 26th
17 of April.
18 We will resume our proceedings on the 3rd of
19 May at 9.00, and we will follow the usual schedule,
20 from 9.00 to 1.30.
21 So we adjourn the hearing.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
23 11.23 a.m., to be reconvened on
24 Monday, the 3rd day of May, 1999,
25 at 9.00 a.m.