Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10043

1 Tuesday, 22nd June, 1999

2 (Closed session)

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20 (Open session)

21 (The witness entered court)

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Pranjkovic

23 [sic]. Would you please make the solemn declaration?

24 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, this is Franjo

25 Kovac.

Page 10083

1 JUDGE CASSESE: Oh, sorry.

2 MR. SUSAK: It doesn't make much difference.

3 I had proposed earlier on that there should be a closed

4 session, but there is no need for that. I consulted my

5 colleagues, and we came to the conclusion that it can

6 be held in open session, but from time to time we will

7 move into private session when we mention the names of

8 protected witnesses.

9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you.

10 Again, good morning, Mr. Kovac. Could you

11 please make the solemn declaration?

12 THE WITNESS: Good morning to all. I

13 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

14 truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

16 seated.

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?

19 MR. SUSAK: I'm sorry, Mr. President.

20 Yesterday we played a videotape, that is, 20/4, and we

21 mentioned in the case of Jozo Livancic D21/4, an aerial

22 image, and I suggest that this be moved into evidence.

23 Of course, if the Prosecutor is not opposed to this.

24 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection?

25 MR. BLAXILL: No, Your Honour.

Page 10084

1 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection. It is admitted

2 into evidence.

3 WITNESS: Franjo Kovac

4 Examined by Mr. Susak:

5 Q. Good day, Mr. Kovac.

6 A. Good day to all present here today.

7 Q. You are going to introduce yourself to the

8 Court now. You are going to give us your name and

9 surname, your date of birth, where you live and where

10 you work.

11 A. I am Franjo Kovac. I was born on the 4th of

12 October, 1959, in Butici, the municipality of Novi

13 Travnik. I live with my wife and two children in

14 Santici, BB Vitez.

15 Q. Could you please tell whether you have a

16 house in Santici?

17 A. Yes, I do have a house in Santici.

18 Q. Was it built before the war or after the war?

19 A. It was built after the war, and until the

20 war, it was only started.

21 Q. Where did you work in 1993?

22 A. In 1993, I was employed in Novi Travnik in a

23 trade company. I was involved in trade.

24 Q. How long did you work there?

25 A. I worked there until the conflict broke out

Page 10085

1 in 1993.

2 Q. Where did you spend more of your time: in

3 Novi Travnik, in your native village, or in Santici?

4 A. I lived in Santici, but I spent more time in

5 Novi Travnik or, rather, in Butici at my parents' place

6 because I had transportation problems so I would spend

7 more time in Novi Travnik rather than at home in

8 Santici. I would come there only when I was supposed

9 to get my salary or on Sundays when I would not work,

10 when I would have a day off.

11 Q. So due to your work, you spent more time in

12 Butici than in Santici; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you would come to Santici, and I'm

15 talking about 1993, to whose house would you come if

16 your house had not been completed by that time? Please

17 just wait a minute and answer my questions slowly. Now

18 go ahead.

19 A. I lived in the house of Nikola Omazic because

20 my house had not been completed yet.

21 Q. Who else lived with you in this house?

22 A. My wife and one child.

23 Q. Did the inhabitants of Santici know you well

24 because you did not live in Santici?

25 A. No, just the neighbours, the closest

Page 10086

1 neighbours that helped me when I built my house because

2 my house was built with the help of my neighbours up to

3 the first floor. It never went any further. So we

4 know each other. They helped me out there.

5 Q. As you were in Novi Travnik, did you do any

6 guard duty from Anto Papic's house?

7 A. Yes, I did, but not much.

8 Q. You mean to say rarely?

9 A. Yes, rarely.

10 Q. As you're not from Santici yourself, did you

11 have a uniform and did you have a rifle?

12 A. No, I didn't have a rifle or a uniform, and I

13 wasn't in Santici much. I was in Novi Travnik and

14 Butici at my parents' place.

15 Q. Would you tell us what you did during the

16 first conflict, that is to say, where were you during

17 the first conflict on the 20th of October, 1992?

18 A. Yes, I remember where I was. I was free, I

19 had a free day, and I -- and Anto Bralo and myself

20 decided to go to cut firewood in the wood around him

21 because I had this motor saw and I deal in trade, and

22 we went off in the morning with Mirsad Osmancevic.

23 Q. And who is Mirsad Osmancevic?

24 A. Mirsad Osmancevic is a neighbour. His house

25 is a little above my own, and I went with Anto Bralo's

Page 10087

1 brother, his nickname was Bica, I don't know his name,

2 he was killed, and we went to Kruscica, that is to say,

3 above Kruscica, to cut wood in the woods above

4 Kruscica.

5 Q. So you went to cut wood. Could you tell us

6 who Mirsad Osmancevic was? Was he a member of any

7 army?

8 A. I knew him well. We were friends and visited

9 each other, and he would go fairly often to some sort

10 of training. He was in the army and would go to some

11 sort of training.

12 Q. What army?

13 A. It was the Muslim army. But what function he

14 performed, I don't know.

15 Q. Did he train others or not?

16 A. Well, he did something of that kind, some

17 sort of training for others. Whether he was a

18 commander of any kind or not, I don't know.

19 Q. Is he in the BH army today?

20 A. Yes, he is. I heard that he is and that he

21 is an officer today.

22 Q. You said that he was a member of the BH

23 army. Do you consider that the BH army existed or not,

24 or was it only the army of the federation of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Serbian republic?

Page 10088

1 A. Today it is the army of the federation of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but previously there was an

3 army ... How shall I say? I can't remember.

4 Q. Well, yes, there are two armies, the one of

5 the Serbian republic and the federation.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That is what was introduced into the

8 constitution, although there are different

9 interpretations of it.

10 Tell us, please, what you did on the 15th of

11 April, 1993, and where were you on that day?

12 A. On the 15th of April, 1993, I was at home

13 because I had come a day before that from Novi Travnik,

14 I came home, because I had to do some work on my

15 house. I had to build something onto my house, one of

16 the structures, and so I was at home that day.

17 Q. You say that you worked in Novi Travnik, and

18 the 15th was a working day, so how could you have been

19 in Santici that day?

20 A. How I came to be in Santici that day? Is

21 that what you're asking me?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Well, I had a free day. I was free that day,

24 so I went to Santici.

25 Q. Did you move off from your house anywhere

Page 10089

1 that day?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where did you go?

4 A. I needed some petrol for my motor, I had no

5 gas, so I had to go to Vitez, and I went by bicycle

6 because I had no car, so I went to Vitez to get some

7 petrol.

8 Q. Who sold you this petrol at the petrol pump

9 in Vitez?

10 A. The petrol pump attendant.

11 Q. At that petrol pump on that particular day,

12 was Nenad Santic there?

13 A. Yes, he was, and he gave me the petrol,

14 tanked up.

15 Q. And did he work at that petrol pump?

16 A. As far as I know, yes, he did work at the

17 pump.

18 Q. The first conflict, do you remember whether

19 anybody's shed was set fire to at Santici or anybody's

20 house shot at Santici in your neighbourhood? Tell

21 me.

22 A. Well, when I came from Kruscica, that was on

23 the morning of the 20th, my wife told me that -- her

24 name is Katica, that Drago Josipovic's shed was burnt,

25 set fire to, and that his house was damaged, the facade

Page 10090

1 and the tiles, and there was also a window that had

2 been shot through and pierced by a bullet on the

3 right-hand side.

4 Q. Was his house damaged during the second

5 conflict as well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you give us a full sentence, please.

8 A. Yes, his house was damaged in the course of

9 the second conflict too.

10 Q. Let us now move on to the 16th of April,

11 1993. Could you please tell us how you experienced

12 that day? Do you know what happened that day?

13 A. Yes, I do. In the morning between the 15th

14 and the 16th, that is to say, on the 16th in the

15 morning, we were woken up by -- I was woken up by

16 shooting. I jumped out of bed, I woke my wife up, and

17 I said, "There seems to be a lot of shooting going

18 on." We jumped out of bed. I took up my child -- I

19 took up my child, as I say, and my wife, and we went

20 out of the house and we moved towards Anto Bralo's

21 house.

22 As it's an open space, we were not able to

23 take -- we had to -- we were not able to take the road

24 but took to the fields.

25 Q. So you took a short-cut to Anto Bralo's

Page 10091

1 house; is that right?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. What time was that in the morning?

4 A. It was about 5.30.

5 Q. How far is your house from Anto Bralo's house

6 as the crow flies?

7 A. You mean Nikola Omazic's house.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Nikola Omazic's house is about 50 metres

10 away, 50 to 60 metres away.

11 Q. And you say that you went there to Anto

12 Bralo's house with your wife and child.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you meet Anto Bralo there?

15 A. Yes, I did. He was at the entrance door. He

16 met us by the front door. So that I took my wife

17 inside, and I stayed outside in front of the entrance

18 talking to Anto Bralo and we saw Drago Josipovic.

19 Q. Well, let us take first things first. You

20 met Anto Bralo, you took your wife and child inside,

21 and who did you see from there?

22 A. I saw Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic.

23 Q. Where?

24 A. At the crossroads towards Nikola Omazic's

25 house, Anto Papic and Anto Bralo.

Page 10092

1 Q. What were they doing?

2 A. Well, the two of them were talking.

3 Q. What did you do then?

4 A. Well, Anto Bralo and I moved towards them.

5 We took the road going around. There's a little fence

6 there --

7 Q. Would you speak slower, please?

8 A. Well, there was a sort of hedge, and this was

9 a little kind of shelter; otherwise, it's an open

10 space. So we took the path -- the round about way, and

11 when we came to the crossroads, Anto Papic and Drago

12 Josipovic moved along the road.

13 Q. Did they start walking along the road before

14 you arrived?

15 A. Yes. We didn't want to follow them, so we

16 went towards Anto Papic's shed.

17 Q. So they went in one direction and you went in

18 the other.

19 A. We went in the other direction, yes.

20 Q. You went towards the shed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were their backs turned to you as you left?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Did they see you? Could they see you?

25 A. Yes, they saw us.

Page 10093

1 Q. And now please tell us what you did when you

2 went to the shed. Tell us the sequence of events.

3 A. There was a lot of shooting, and anyone could

4 have been hit by a bullet. We went to Anto Papic's

5 shed because it was the safest place there. It was

6 about 40 metres away. We went over there, Anto Bralo

7 and I, because that was the best shelter from bullets.

8 After some time, Hasima came by, Hasima

9 Hasim.

10 Q. Please give us her name and surname.

11 A. I can't remember.

12 Q. Is the last name Ahmic?

13 A. Yes, yes. It was Fatima Ahmic.

14 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, now I would like

15 to move into private session because we are going to

16 mention names that are protected.

17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we will move into

18 private session.

19 (Private session)

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Page 10099

1 [redacted]

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3 (Open session)

4 MR. SUSAK: You just said now, Mr. Kovac,

5 that -- actually, that Ljubo Cerkez was there just in

6 passing. Tell me about that morning. Where were you

7 going that morning? We're talking about the 16th. Did

8 you see Drago Josipovic that morning, except when he

9 and Anto Papic brought the Muslims that we talked

10 about?

11 A. Well, we were moving in that area all day.

12 That was Anto Bralo's house, and Anto Papic's house or,

13 rather, the shed of Anto Papic was there too. And

14 Bralo and I had a task or, rather, we had agreed on

15 something with Marija Papic, a neighbour. We were

16 supposed to go and feed her cattle, because she was a

17 bit further away from Bralo's house. We went there to

18 milk the cows and to feed the cattle, et cetera.

19 Q. Oh, I see. So you went to milk the cows in

20 the morning?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What time was that?

23 A. That was around 10:00, 10:00 or 11:00.

24 Sometime during the day, in the morning.

25 Q. Since we said that some Muslims came to Anto

Page 10100

1 Papic's house, do you know who were the people who were

2 in Anto Bralo's house that day?

3 A. When we talked to Marija Papic, when we said

4 we were supposed to go milk the cows, at Anto Bralo's

5 house there was Marija Papic, Ljubica Skuro, Simo

6 Vidovic, Jozo Santic, Finka Bralo with two children, I

7 already mentioned Ljubica. She had a child too.

8 Q. Ljubica who?

9 A. Ljubica Skuro.

10 Q. And her name was different afterwards, wasn't

11 it? Is that Ljubica Milicevic?

12 A. Yes. Yes, it's Ljubica Milicevic, but Skuro

13 is a nickname.

14 Q. That day when you saw Drago Josipovic, what

15 did he look like? What was he wearing?

16 A. Drago Josipovic was wearing blue trousers, a

17 blue shirt, and he had a camouflage vest, and he had a

18 rifle. He was carrying a rifle too.

19 Q. We talked about village guards earlier on.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In this area, from Anto Papic's house to the

22 road or to the house of Drago Josipovic, was -- or,

23 rather, Nikica Grebenar, was he there on guard duty

24 with you?

25 A. No. I know Nikica. Nikica's job was the

Page 10101

1 following: He was supposed to assign people to guard

2 duty. He was involved in making out this list, who was

3 supposed to go where.

4 Q. Why did he not have guard duty?

5 A. Because he had a work obligation. He was a

6 trade inspector, and I was involved in trade, so we

7 always communicated.

8 Q. Did Nikica Grebenar have a rifle?

9 A. No. No, he did not have a rifle, till he got

10 a rifle from Nenad Santic. That rifle was Fahran's

11 rifle.

12 Q. Give us his last name, too.

13 A. It was Fahran Ahmic's rifle.

14 Q. So Nenad Santic gave him this rifle?

15 A. Yes, Nenad Santic gave him a rifle.

16 Q. He gave it to Nikica Grebenar?

17 A. Yes, to Nikica Grebenar. And since Drago

18 Josipovic did not have a rifle and since he was friends

19 with Fahran Ahmic, and then they were talking to Drago

20 Josipovic, and Drago was supposed to get this rifle.

21 Q. Did he talk to Drago or Nikica Grebenar?

22 A. Fahran talked to Drago that Nikica should

23 take this, and then Drago talked to Nikica, and that's

24 how he got this rifle, and that's how Drago Josipovic

25 got it.

Page 10102

1 Q. I don't know if you understood this. Are you

2 sure that he talked to Nikica Grebenar or Drago

3 Josipovic?

4 A. Fahran talked to Drago.

5 Q. I'm putting the following question to you:

6 Did he talk to Nikica Grebenar about handing over this

7 rifle, because Nikica Grebenar was the one who gave out

8 different assignments. Did he talk to Nikica Grebenar

9 or Drago Josipovic?

10 A. He talked to Drago Josipovic.

11 Q. Did you talk to Nikica Grebenar?

12 A. You mean Fahran Ahmic?

13 Q. Yes. Yes. Yes, I mean Fahran Ahmic.

14 A. He talked to --

15 Q. Mr. Kovac, did Fahran Ahmic talk to Nikica

16 Grebenar about having this rifle handed over to Nikica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How do you know this?

19 A. Because Nikica told me about that.

20 Q. Did Nikica work on building your house and

21 were you good friends?

22 A. We were only good friends through work.

23 Q. You were good friends with Nikica Grebenar

24 and he told you something. What did he tell you?

25 A. He told me that the rifle was taken away from

Page 10103

1 Fahran Ahmic.

2 Q. Who took it away?

3 A. Nenad Santic took it away from him. The gun

4 was given to the village guards so that the -- but in

5 order to prevent the rifle from going further on, to

6 some other place, then Fahran asked Drago Josipovic

7 that Drago go and ask --

8 Q. No. Well, not Drago. Did you talk to Nikica

9 Grebenar or Drago? Please tell me.

10 A. To Nikica Grebenar.

11 Q. And who gave Drago Josipovic the rifle?

12 A. Nikica Grebenar.

13 Q. Okay. Right. We are talking about the 16th

14 of April, 1993. Tell me, who else came it to Anto

15 Papic's house, who from the ranks of the Muslims? Do

16 you know that?

17 A. Yes, I know. In the afternoon --

18 Q. I think that you don't know those last names

19 because you were not born there.

20 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. Especially from the

21 left-hand side. [redacted]

22 [redacted].

23 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, perhaps we should

24 move into private session, because we're going to

25 mention a few names again. Private session. Private

Page 10104

1 session, yes.

2 JUDGE CASSESE: Private session.

3 (Private session)

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1 [redacted]

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4 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.41 a.m.

6 (Open session)

7 JUDGE CASSESE: We wish to apologise for the

8 slight delay. We may now resume our proceedings.

9 Counsel Susak?

10 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Mr. Kovac, do you know Drago Josipovic?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Do you know his mother?

14 A. Yes, I know her very well. She is a very ill

15 woman.

16 Q. Could you tell us, on what terms were you

17 with her, between his mother and you?

18 A. Well, we were on very good terms. Because I

19 was away from home, his mother often spent the night in

20 my house or, rather, in Nikola Omazic's house. She

21 spent a lot of time with my wife, especially after the

22 first conflict. She was afraid to be alone, so she

23 often came over to my wife and spent the night with

24 her. Drago also came and we visited each other and we

25 built my house together so that I know him very well.

Page 10108

1 Q. Why did Drago Josipovic's mother come to your

2 house? Why was that?

3 A. It was because Drago Josipovic's wife was

4 full-time employed, she worked for a private

5 businessman, and she simply could not help her enough,

6 so that she would come over to my wife, and my wife is

7 with her to this day.

8 Q. Did Drago also help her?

9 A. Yes. Drago was very devoted to his mother,

10 and whatever she needed, Drago did.

11 Q. Did you used to see Drago Josipovic and his

12 mother?

13 A. Yes. I saw him in his garden quite often.

14 Because she was ill, she suffered from cancer, Drago

15 always did things in the garden and took care -- took

16 care of their vegetable garden, and he even prepared

17 preserves and conserves together with his mother.

18 MR. SUSAK: Yes. You said that you worked in

19 Novi Travnik.

20 Mr. President, I should like to show a

21 document to the accused, so will the usher please --

22 will the usher please also take this document from me

23 and give it to the Chamber and show it to the witness?

24 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit D22/4.


Page 10109

1 Q. Mr. Kovac, have you read this certificate?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it true that you worked for Novotehna in

4 Novi Travnik?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Until the 16th of April?

7 A. Yes, until the 16th of April.

8 Q. Do you have your work booklet? Do you have

9 it with you?

10 A. Yes, I do. I do.

11 MR. SUSAK: This is it. So if the

12 Prosecution does not trust the certificate, they can

13 check it in his work booklet, employment booklet.

14 Q. You said that you knew neighbours living near

15 your house.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you please tell us who were those

18 neighbours; to begin with, Muslims.

19 A. Yes. My next-door or, rather, the neighbour

20 who lived across the street was Cazim Ramic, with his

21 family, that is, his wife Zilka and two sons --

22 Q. Will you just tell us the households?

23 A. Right, households.

24 Q. Does his son also have a house of his own?

25 A. Yes, yes, he does. There is also -- I just

Page 10110

1 can't remember the name.

2 Q. Was it perhaps Zenur Ramic?

3 A. Yes, quite right, Zenur Ramic is the house to

4 the right, and there is also -- and another house is

5 Mirsad Osmancevic's. They're all along our street.

6 Q. That is, from Anto Papic's house towards the

7 road.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is [indiscernible translation] Ahmic's house

10 there?

11 A. Yes, Ahmic's house is across Mr. Osmancevic's

12 house is.

13 Q. Could you tell us if any of these persons

14 living near Anto Papic's house and near yours, was any

15 one of them killed on the 16th of April?

16 A. No, nobody was killed on our street.

17 Q. And as you turn towards the road?

18 A. As you turn towards the road, in the house to

19 the right, the one which was killed, that was --

20 Q. What was his name?

21 A. Fahran.

22 Q. Fahran Ahmic.

23 A. No. Fahran was his first name. I can't

24 remember his last name.

25 Q. Yes. And do you know of anybody else?

Page 10111

1 A. [redacted]

2 [redacted].

3 Q. But were the houses closer to Anto Papic's

4 house or to the road?

5 A. No, these houses are nearer the road because

6 near Anto Papic's house are only these two houses,

7 Mirsad Osmancevic's and Nail's house and the one that

8 was across from my house, across the road from my

9 house.

10 MR. SUSAK: Will the usher please show the

11 aerial photographs to the witness, and I shall then ask

12 him to mark those houses?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D23/4.


15 Q. Will you please take a marker?

16 A. A marker?

17 Q. Yes, or a pen. Something. And will you

18 please mark the house? Have you found it? Do you see

19 your way around that map? You can turn it around if

20 it's easier for you.

21 A. Yes, I think I've got my bearings now. Whose

22 house?

23 MR. SUSAK: Could the other witness's

24 microphone be switched on, please?

25 Q. Will you put an "A" next to [redacted]

Page 10112

1 [redacted]house, please? Mr. Kovac, perhaps it would be

2 better to take another copy. I think this is a clearer

3 photograph, so perhaps it is better.

4 A. I can try.

5 Q. I mean, it has the same houses. Perhaps you

6 can look at both of them. You think this one is

7 better.

8 A. This one is better.

9 Q. Well, look at it, find your way around it,

10 and then take the other photograph. Yeah, will you

11 please compare the two? Look at both of them, and I

12 think it will be simpler for you to find your way about

13 them.

14 A. Oh, yeah, right. I see. Yes. Fine.

15 Q. Right. Now, on the second photograph, which

16 is clearer, will you please mark [redacted]house

17 and put an "A" next to it -- no, no, no. On the other

18 one, on the other photograph, because it is clearer.

19 That is why. Will you place it on the ELMO so that we

20 can see? [redacted]

21 [redacted]


23 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sorry, Counsel Susak --

24 A. I don't really know where they are.

25 JUDGE CASSESE: First of all, we don't have

Page 10113

1 any translation, [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]. If you don't mind, for a few minutes, we

5 will move into a private session.

6 In any case, I wonder whether it is so

7 crucial if the witness is unable to locate that

8 particular place. It is not very crucial because we

9 have so many --

10 A. I can, I can.

11 JUDGE CASSESE: We will move on to other

12 matters.

13 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have

14 been asked by various people whether we should go into

15 private session or not, and my colleagues confuse me.

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 JUDGE CASSESE: We are going, yes, into

25 private session, first of all, but then again, as to

Page 10114

1 the location of this particular house, if the witness

2 is unable to locate it, I mean, I think we can move on

3 to other questions, if you agree.

4 (Private session)

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10115

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 (Open session)


16 Q. So you told us that those houses were not set

17 on fire, that only one was set on fire and that that

18 happened on the 17th of April. Whose house was that?

19 A. That was the Zilko's or, rather, Cazim

20 Ramic's house.

21 Q. And Zenur Ramic's house, does it still stand?

22 A. Yes. Yes, it does. It still stands.

23 Q. And Mirsad Osmancevic's house, does it still

24 stand?

25 A. Yes. There are some Ramics living in that

Page 10116

1 house.

2 Q. Very well. On the 16th of April, did you

3 enter Anto Papic's house?

4 A. On the 16th of April, yes, I did, but it was

5 only in the evening, in the evening, late afternoon,

6 and with Anto.

7 Q. Whom did you see there?

8 A. In Anto Papic's house I entered. I was

9 looking for cigarettes, and I was given them. There

10 were Cazim Ramic, with Zilka with two sons, with three

11 children; Mirsad Osmancevic with three children, and

12 baby, and his wife. There was Anto Papic's sister and

13 wife with two children. There was [redacted]

14 [redacted]. There were a number other

15 people but I did not know them. They were refugees,

16 most of them.

17 Q. Very well. Were these people accommodated?

18 Were they in the rooms, or in the passage, or in the

19 rooms?

20 A. They were both in the rooms and in the

21 passage, because all these rooms are very small. So

22 they were also in the passage, and there was also a

23 kitchen.

24 Q. These persons, did they come in and go out in

25 the way that not all of them were in those rooms all

Page 10117

1 the time?

2 A. Yes. They could go out at their own

3 responsibility, of course. I mean, they had to take

4 care that no bullet hit them, but they could go out and

5 come back.

6 Q. Do you know if Muslims came out and moved

7 around, and some of them came to Niko Omazic's house or

8 to Anto Bralo's house?

9 A. Yes. I heard it from my wife. I did not see

10 them, but I heard from my wife that Hasim's wife came

11 to Finka Bralo. I asked about my wife, so as to call

12 her son who was in Vitez, and my wife agreed. So they

13 went to my home or, rather, to Niko Omazic's house and

14 she made a call to Vitez. That is what my wife told

15 me. I heard it from my wife. I did the not see that

16 personally.

17 Q. Right. Now we are talking about the 17th of

18 April, 1993. Will you tell us if you saw Drago

19 Josipovic that day or not?

20 A. I saw him quite a number of times. Even

21 Drago spent the night in Niko Omazic's house. That is

22 my place. And Dubravka Santic was also there with her

23 three children. So it was better for them.

24 Drago and I, we spent the night together.

25 Drago did not go to his home because his house was

Page 10118

1 damaged, rather, at the time of the first conflict, and

2 even at the time of the second one. It was hit several

3 times. So it was safer for him to spend the night at

4 my place.

5 Q. Do you know -- were you with Drago Josipovic

6 after that? Was he in Anto Bralo's house with you, or

7 back in his house, or did he ever go back to his

8 house? Do you know something about that?

9 A. On the 17th, in the morning, we went to Anto

10 Bralo's, and we sat down with him and had coffee and

11 were talking about where we would go, to move around or

12 not. We agreed that Drago Josipovic should go home and

13 feed the pigs and that Drago and I should go to Marija

14 Papic to feed the poultry. So we did. Drago stayed

15 behind, and I heard that later on he went to feed the

16 pigs, that is, to his yard.

17 Q. When was that?

18 A. Well, it was around 10.00. In the morning, I

19 mean? Well, it was roughly about 10.00.

20 Q. Did you see him in the afternoon?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Were you moving about those houses or not?

23 A. Well, together we were at Bralo's and at Anto

24 Papic's, but those were roughly our movements.

25 Q. So it was throughout the day?

Page 10119

1 A. Yes, throughout the day.

2 Q. Since the Muslims were in Anto Papic's house,

3 would you know when was it they left the house?

4 A. I don't know that, but I heard from Anto

5 Papic that Anto took them to the road or, rather, it

6 was UNPROFOR which was allegedly to take them or that

7 is what Anto, I think, said to me.

8 Q. That is, you know that only because Anto

9 Papic told you?

10 A. Yes. Yes. I did not see them leave.

11 Q. You did not see them?

12 A. No. No, I didn't because we were at Marija

13 Papic's.

14 Q. Did you see Drago Josipovic go from that

15 house to his -- from your house to his house?

16 A. From my house to his house. No, I don't know

17 that. I know that he left from Bralo's house because

18 we both left Bralo's house together.

19 Q. Yes, but did Drago Josipovic go home?

20 A. Yes, but he went there from Anto's house.

21 Q. But did you see him leave?

22 A. No, I didn't, because we left before him.

23 Q. Oh, I see. You left before him. Will you

24 tell us -- so you saw Drago Josipovic on the 16th and

25 on the 17th. Where were you mobilised, if you were

Page 10120

1 mobilised?

2 A. I was mobilised. Not only me, but we were

3 all mobilised four days after the war, that is, on the

4 19th. A courier came and --

5 Q. Will you tell us which 19th of what?

6 A. 19th of April.

7 Q. Which year was that?

8 A. 1993.

9 Q. Who came to fetch you?

10 A. Well, it was a courier, and all he said was

11 we should all get together and leave. So we did. All

12 of us who were on the road, we crossed the road to the

13 other part of the road, that is, to the road to Rovna,

14 and we all met there, and went to the line in

15 Safradini.

16 Q. Can you tell us who was in that group?

17 A. It was Anto Bralo; Drago Josipovic; and then

18 another; Dragan Santic from across the street, from

19 another street; then Ivo; then Nikica Grebenar. I

20 didn't know those people. I met them later on when we

21 were at the defence line already. That is a new

22 Nikica. I didn't know his brother.

23 There was also Nenad Santic. Well, these are

24 the people I know.

25 Q. Very well. The Prosecutor gave us a

Page 10121

1 certificate of the Croat Defence Council of the Vitez

2 Brigade, and that certificate is of the 15th of April,

3 '94. The certificate was issued subsequently, at a

4 later date, after the mobilisation. It says that you

5 were a member of the HVO, that is, of the HVO Vitez

6 Brigade as of the 6th of October -- 16th of April,

7 '92. Just wait. I haven't put my question yet. This

8 certificate also says that you were wounded on the 16th

9 of September, 1993.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At Krtina-Mahala?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us when was it that you were

14 mobilised in the Vitez area for the first time?

15 A. The first and the last time I was mobilised

16 was on the 19th of April, '93, but before that, I

17 think, out of spite, they simply reported me, those

18 village guards. I was supposed to be on village guard,

19 and I think somebody put my name down on the list and

20 that is how I think I got on the list.

21 Q. Just a moment. Wait. So in other words, are

22 you saying that somebody told on you? But were you

23 registered to Santici as a person with a residence

24 there?

25 A. No. Nobody had done that.

Page 10122

1 Q. But were you issued the papers in Novi

2 Travnik, because you were a member of army formations

3 or village guards?

4 A. No, I was in Novi Travnik but because I was

5 still working there. That is how papers got from Novi

6 Travnik, because I was not registered down there, so

7 that I could not get any papers down there.

8 Q. I suppose the Prosecution will ask you about

9 that. I'm not going to bother you any more about

10 that.

11 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no further

12 questions.

13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder whether

14 other Defence counsel intend to cross-examine this

15 witness.

16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, other counsel do

17 not have any questions for this witness.

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Terrier.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. My name is Franck

21 Terrier. I'm one of the representatives of the

22 Prosecution, and I would like to ask you a certain

23 number of questions.

24 First of all, with the assistance of the

25 usher, I would like you to have a look at the

Page 10123

1 certificate that was mentioned by Mr. Susak.

2 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit P368.

3 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I apologise. I

4 just wanted to draw your attention to one point

5 regarding this certificate. Please take note on the

6 Croatian text and the date on the English translation.

7 The translation was done by the Office of the

8 Prosecutor.

9 My colleague, Mr. Susak, gave the exact date,

10 which was the 15th of April, 1994, whereas the English

11 version, the date is the 15th of April, 1995. Also,

12 the numbers relating to that document above the date,

13 after the illegible part of the Croatian text, it is

14 09/94, whereas in the English text it is 09/95. So

15 please take note of that if you will. We don't know if

16 it is just a typing error or something else. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

19 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, it is true that

20 it seems the translation, which is a rough translation

21 and not the final translation, seems to contain a

22 mistake, but I wanted to base my objection on the

23 original, where the figures are very clear, even for a

24 person who couldn't speak Serbo-Croatian.

25 JUDGE CASSESE: There is no translation.

Page 10124

1 MR. TERRIER: I will then repeat what I've

2 just said, very briefly. I agree with what Mr. Radovic

3 said.

4 Q. Witness, you had enough time to have a look

5 at this document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Had you seen this document before?

8 A. Whether I'd seen it before? No.

9 Q. Did you hear about it? Were you aware of the

10 existence of this document?

11 A. No, I did not know about this.

12 Q. According to this document dated 15th of

13 April, 1994, you were wounded on the 16th of September,

14 1993 when you were fighting within the Viteska

15 Brigade. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Could you please be more precise? In which

18 unit were you fighting?

19 A. Which unit, you mean? I was the

20 1st Battalion, the 1st Platoon, and the 3rd Company.

21 Q. Could you give the names of the officers,

22 your superiors?

23 A. I just had one officer. I didn't meet the

24 others. That was my commander, deputy commander, in

25 fact, and his name was Jozo Plavcic.

Page 10125

1 Q. You will agree that in this document it is

2 said that you are a member of the Viteska Brigade and

3 that you have been a member of this brigade since the

4 16th of April, 1992. Is this correct?

5 A. According to this document, that's what it

6 says, but I wasn't in Vitez. I was in Novi Travnik,

7 because Novi Travnik paid out those shares to me as of

8 that date, as of the 16th of April, 1992, and not

9 Vitez.

10 Q. A few moments ago when you answered a

11 question asked of you by Mr. Susak, you explained the

12 reason why this date had been mentioned in this

13 document. I do apologise, but I didn't really

14 understand your explanation. Could you please repeat

15 what you said to Mr. Susak?

16 A. I didn't understand your question. Could I

17 what?

18 Q. A moment ago Mr. Susak asked you why this

19 date of the 16th of April, 1992 had been mentioned in

20 the document, and you explained why you were

21 registered, without knowing it, on the guard list.

22 Could you please go back to this explanation

23 and be more precise?

24 A. Because somebody told on me, denounced me,

25 out of spite, out of hatred, because I did not go on

Page 10126

1 these guard duties, and so they tried to make me a part

2 of those guard duties, tried to make me do the duty.

3 But as I wasn't there, well then ...

4 So I didn't, in fact. They didn't know about

5 me, in fact.

6 Q. If I understand you well, but I'm not

7 completely sure I understand you well, all the

8 inhabitants of Ahmici had to do guard duty or other

9 military tasks within the Viteska Brigade -- did I

10 understand you well? -- which would explain why you are

11 mentioned as a member of the Viteska Brigade since the

12 16th of September [as interpreted], 1992, because you

13 were denounced?

14 A. No, not from the 16th of April, 1992. I was

15 a member as of 1993; that is to say, the 19th of April,

16 1993.

17 MR. TERRIER: I would like for the usher to

18 give to the witness Exhibit 353 of the Prosecution, and

19 more precisely, page 78 of this exhibit.

20 Q. On this page, page 78, I will draw your

21 attention to the number corresponding to the name,

22 rather, corresponding to the number 3306, and I would

23 like you to confirm if this is your name.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On this line on the right-hand side of the

Page 10127

1 page, you can see a signature. Is this your signature?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On this very same line, it is indicated that

4 you were a member of the HVO from the 8th of April,

5 1992, till the 1st of October, 1994.

6 A. I can't explain it.

7 Q. I will also draw your attention to the fact

8 that you signed this book, that your signature is

9 opposite the dates which are indicated.

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Therefore, it seems logical to think that

12 when you signed this book, you knew what these dates

13 corresponded to.

14 Sir, can I ask you, what is this green

15 notebook that you've just opened to find some

16 information, I guess?

17 A. A record of employment, and I'm looking at it

18 to see my years of service, because the 26th is

19 mentioned here, and I wanted to see whether anything

20 was different in my booklet, employment booklet, but it

21 has nothing to do with what we have here.

22 Q. Sorry. If you don't have any explanation to

23 give to us, then we'll move to another subject.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You told us that at that time, that is, at

Page 10128

1 the beginning of 1993, you were working in Novi Travnik

2 and that usually you would stay in Novi Travnik and

3 that you would go to Ahmici only rarely. Could you

4 tell us if your family, that is, your wife and your

5 child, were living on a permanent basis, so to speak,

6 in Ahmici or Santici?

7 A. In 1993? Everything was normal. Nobody

8 provoked them or anything like that.

9 Q. Could you tell us how often you would come

10 back from Novi Travnik to Ahmici? Was it every

11 weekend, every month, or did you come back more

12 frequently?

13 A. Sometimes once weekly, sometimes every

14 fortnight, so I would go back every month, yes.

15 Q. You told us that your family lived in Nikola

16 Omazic's house. Was there more than one Nikola Omazic

17 living in Santici or Ahmici?

18 A. As far as I know, there is another Nikola

19 Omazic, yes, and that is my father-in-law, who is in

20 Vitez, and he has a house in Santici. But there's

21 another Nikola Omazic who lives at Zume, that is to

22 say, above the road, the upper side of the road.

23 Q. You said that on the 15th of April, 1993, you

24 came back home with your family in Ahmici. Was there

25 any particular reason for you to come back since it was

Page 10129

1 on a Thursday and not during the weekend?

2 A. Yes. It was payday. I had collected my

3 salary and I was taking it home.

4 Q. Couldn't you wait until Friday or Saturday to

5 do that?

6 A. Well, it could have waited, but I had a free

7 day because I worked the Sunday. So if I worked the

8 Sunday, then I can use that day when I need it, and I

9 took a free day, I had already worked out my shifts,

10 and as I say, it was payday, so I collected my pay and

11 went home.

12 Q. For how long had you been working for this

13 company in Travnik?

14 A. Since 1987. I don't know the exact date. I

15 have it, of course, written down in my record of

16 employment.

17 Q. On the certificate that you were given a

18 moment ago, it says that you've been working there

19 since February 1993.

20 A. '87 until the 7th of June, '93. Yes, because

21 -- up until '93 because all the roads were blocked and

22 I wasn't able to go to my place of employment; and as

23 the war started in Novi Travnik a little later, broke

24 out there a little later, these years of service were

25 recognised for all of us.

Page 10130

1 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I think there

2 has been another error in translation which has nothing

3 to do with the Prosecution.

4 Q. Therefore, sir, there were no particular

5 reasons for you to come back to Ahmici that Thursday.

6 A. I didn't understand the question.

7 Q. I shall repeat the question. According to

8 what you have just said, there were no particular

9 reasons for you to go back on that Thursday, instead of

10 Friday or Saturday, as you would usually do, to go back

11 to your village. You didn't want to protect your

12 family against a potential incident, for instance? If

13 I thought that this was the case, then I would be

14 wrong; is that what you're saying?

15 A. That's right, because I went to work and then

16 I took my paycheque home, and I had to work on my

17 house, I had to build up something in my house, and

18 that was the reason: Because I brought back my salary,

19 I had a free day, and I had work to do on my house.

20 Q. During the night of the 15th and 16th of

21 April, 1993, unless I'm wrong, I heard that you were on

22 guard duty during that night.

23 A. I didn't say that.

24 Q. Did you have a certain duty to carry out

25 during that night for the whole community?

Page 10131

1 A. No, I had nothing.

2 Q. You had never done guard duty in Ahmici or

3 Pirici while you were there?

4 A. Very little, almost nothing, not at all, and

5 I remember the last guard duty that I did. It was two

6 hours in the month of February with Anto Bralo.

7 Q. During the morning of the 16th of April,

8 1993, you said that you were awoken by shootings,

9 gunfire that you heard. Then you took your family in

10 or to Anto Bralo's house. Why did you choose that

11 particular house, Anto Bralo's house?

12 A. Because it was the nearest house.

13 Q. Could you tell us why your family could not

14 stay in that house, in Nikola Omazic's house?

15 A. Because it's not a well-built house and it's

16 always safer to be with more families than alone, so

17 those were the reasons. And my wife was afraid when

18 the first conflict took place, so it was safer to go to

19 Anto Bralo's house.

20 Q. Could you tell us, how was Anto Papic dressed

21 when you saw him for the first time that morning, on

22 the 15th of April, 1993?

23 A. Anto Papic was wearing a camouflage uniform.

24 He had a camouflage uniform, both the bottom part,

25 pants, and the upper part as well.

Page 10132

1 Q. Did he have some insignia or some patch or

2 something on that uniform?

3 A. I don't remember him having any. I don't

4 know.

5 Q. Did he have a weapon?

6 A. Yes, he did. He had a rifle, an M-48. It's

7 an old rifle.

8 Q. You told us that Drago Josipovic was wearing

9 blue trousers and a camouflage jacket. On that

10 camouflage vest, was there any insignia or any patch or

11 anything?

12 A. I didn't see it. I don't remember.

13 Q. Was he armed?

14 A. Yes, he was. He had an automatic rifle on

15 his back.

16 Q. Could you be more accurate as to the model of

17 the rifle that Drago Josipovic had over his shoulder on

18 the 16th of April in the morning?

19 A. It was what we call a Ciganka. It was an

20 automatic rifle with a short butt.

21 Q. In view of your military experience, what is

22 that type of a weapon? How is this type of a rifle

23 usually used?

24 A. For defence. For self-defence.

25 Q. Why was it that this rifle was particularly

Page 10133

1 an indicated rifle for self-defence?

2 A. Well, what else could you use it for? You

3 use it for defence purposes.

4 Q. Perhaps this seems a strange question, but

5 can't a defence weapon be used also for an attack, as a

6 weapon of attack? Now, you have military experience;

7 that is why I am asking you that.

8 A. Well, of course you can use it for an attack

9 if you need an attack. But if you have it for your

10 defence, then it's for defence purposes. It depends

11 what you use it for.

12 Q. I see. Did you see around your house, that

13 is, Nikola Omazic's house, or around other houses in

14 this same place, in the vicinity, some soldiers?

15 A. No, I didn't see any because there's some

16 growth by the roadside, a sort of hedge, a hedge, so

17 you couldn't see, although it is open space otherwise.

18 Q. You said a while ago that intensive fire made

19 you hide behind Anto Papic's stable. Do you know where

20 this intensive fire came from and who it was aimed at?

21 A. Well, I didn't look to see what it was aimed

22 at, but it came from all sides, so that we found

23 ourselves behind Anto Papic's stable. I don't want to

24 say that they were aiming at me or anybody else.

25 Anybody could have been hit who happened to be passing

Page 10134

1 by.

2 Q. Do you remember the place where you were when

3 you met Fatima and her husband Hasim? Where were you

4 at the time?

5 A. I was in front of Anto Papic's stable with

6 Anto Bralo.

7 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, he did not say

8 that he had met Fatima Ahmic. He said that they were

9 behind Anto Papic's stable, that is, away from the road

10 and away from the path taken by Fatima, and so I would

11 like to make an objection so as not to confuse the

12 witness.

13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, thank you. Mr. Terrier,

14 perhaps you could rephrase the question.

15 MR. TERRIER: Yes. I was going to do that,

16 but it seems to me -- right. Well, this is a

17 misunderstanding. So I will rephrase my question.

18 Q. Do you remember seeing Fatima Ahmic that

19 morning and also her children and her daughter-in-law?

20 You know who I am talking about.

21 A. I didn't meet them. They passed us by. But

22 Drago Josipovic met them and Anto Papic did too.

23 Q. How do you know that Drago Josipovic and Anto

24 Papic met them? Did that happen in your presence?

25 A. Because they came up to us and said to us

Page 10135

1 that -- they said that Fahran had died because they

2 were at the junction there while we were going on to

3 Anto Papic's house. They took the right side of the

4 road, so I could see them and they could see us.

5 Q. You said a while ago, in answer to

6 Mr. Susak's question, you gave the names of some

7 persons who had found shelter at Anto Papic's. Did you

8 enter that house on that day, on the 16th of April?

9 A. No, I did not. We were only moving in front

10 of the house. As for the house itself, we entered it

11 only in the evening. Anto Bralo and I, we came to the

12 hall of Anto Papic's house.

13 Q. Could you tell us about Anto Bralo who was

14 with you in front of Anto Papic's house? Could you

15 tell us, what was he wearing that day?

16 A. He was wearing the same uniform that I saw

17 him in the morning, that is to say, the camouflage

18 jacket and the olive green trousers.

19 Q. Did he have a weapon?

20 A. Yes, he had an M48 rifle.

21 Q. Is it correct as this translation follows, in

22 Anto Papic's house, in two rooms, nine metres square

23 each, there were over 30 persons, as you said, and

24 another witness 38 persons. And there were near those

25 30-odd persons, there were three individuals in

Page 10136

1 military clothes and armed. One of them was you.

2 Wouldn't you go in to provide guards, to guard those

3 refugees, those sheltering people? Am I clear? Wasn't

4 it to prevent those people who had sought shelter to

5 disperse, to scatter around?

6 A. I did not understand this question.

7 Q. I shall be happy to repeat it. I'm asking

8 you to tell us if it is true or not. In Anto Papic's

9 house there were those two rooms, two nine square

10 metres each. In them there were over 30 persons, as

11 you said, or 38 persons, according to another witness,

12 all of them Muslims. Near those 30 or 38 persons there

13 were, at least at some points of time during the day,

14 three persons wearing camouflage uniforms or, rather,

15 all Croats, all three of them armed.

16 So my question is as follows, rather, my

17 interpretation which I put to you is that following

18 that, does that not mean that these three armed Croats

19 had the duty to stand guard over those 30-odd Muslims

20 so as to prevent their dispersing, so as to prevent

21 their departure either to Rovna or any other direction,

22 to prevent their leaving the house?

23 A. They could go out whenever they wanted to and

24 wherever they wanted to go. As for the house of Anto

25 Papic, as far as I know, I did not see a single

Page 10137

1 camouflage uniform except for Anto Papic and Anto

2 Bralo. They had uniforms.

3 Q. Why did not these individuals get to a

4 separate place by leaving this area and going to Rovna?

5 A. Because that was the nearest to them. In

6 order to go to Rovna -- it's a longer trip to Rovna.

7 This was closer and they got along very well. They

8 could have gone to Anto Bralo's house too, because it

9 was Hasim and Hasim's wife that were amongst the first

10 to arrive, and their daughter-in-law, and all the

11 others came too because they felt safer when they were

12 all together rather than if they dispersed.

13 Q. Yes, witness, but my question is: On the

14 16th of April, 1993, they could have, all together,

15 perhaps even with your help, gone to Rovna or in the

16 direction of Rovna, and they would have been,

17 evidently, quite safe there. So at the place where

18 they were, they were not altogether safe. Their

19 security was not certain.

20 A. Yes. Their safety and security was 100 per

21 cent because no one touched them and no one mistreated

22 them. Even as much as possible, we gave them food. We

23 also gave their children clothes. They were free to go

24 wherever they wanted to, as far as we, their Croat

25 neighbours, were concerned, and they could go wherever

Page 10138

1 they wanted to, because they were not threatened there

2 anyway. So that is why they felt safest there.

3 Q. Right. In the night between the 16th and the

4 17th, you spent the night in your house, Nikola

5 Omazic's house, and Drago Josipovic was with you. That

6 is what you told us. It seems, therefore, that then

7 that night, between the 16th and the 17th, Nikola

8 Omazic's house was safer than the other one?

9 A. No. No, it wasn't safer, but since there

10 were so many people at Anto Bralo's house, and Anto

11 Papic's, why wouldn't they be staying at Nikola's too?

12 Again, it is easier for them not to be too crowded, not

13 to have that many people packed together. That's why

14 we went to Nikola Omazic's place, that is to say, to my

15 place.

16 Q. On the 16th and that night before the 17th,

17 where was Drago Josipovic's family, do you know that?

18 A. In Rovna, at Slavica Josipvic's parents.

19 That is to say, his mother and his wife Slavica.

20 That's what I heard from certain neighbours.

21 Q. Do you know when Drago Josipovic's family

22 went to Rovna?

23 A. No. I did not see them, and they probably

24 left when the shooting began.

25 Q. Did you hear, if you did not see, in what way

Page 10139

1 did the Josipovic's family get to Rovna? What kind of

2 means of transportation did he use?

3 A. I don't know. I cannot remember.

4 Q. You told us a while ago explaining the

5 presence of Drago Josipovic in Nikoka Omazic's house

6 with you, that his house had been damaged. Did you see

7 with your own eyes the damage inflicted on Drago

8 Josipovic's house?

9 A. After going to the front line -- and I did

10 not say that today, Dragan only told me, but I didn't

11 see this myself.

12 Q. Could you describe the damage that you saw

13 with your own eyes?

14 A. I did not see it with my own eyes. I did,

15 after the first conflict, I saw it with my own eyes,

16 but after the second conflict, no, I did not see it

17 with my own eyes. I only heard about this from Drago,

18 that his house had been damaged again.

19 Q. Drago Josipovic didn't tell you anything

20 about that, to tell you that his house had been hit,

21 and you do not know anything else, any more details

22 about it, do you?

23 A. I don't know anything. I just know that he

24 told me that his house had been damaged by rifle

25 bullets.

Page 10140

1 Q. I should like to ask you my last question.

2 Why is it that spending the night in Nikola Omazic's

3 house, why did you spend it there rather than stay

4 closer to Anto Bralo's house in order to look after

5 your family? You told us there were lots of people

6 there but, nevertheless, don't you think that they

7 could have let you into that house?

8 A. Well, why would we create any problems, and

9 why would there be too many people in one house when

10 there was no one practically in the other house except

11 for me, and Drago, and Dubravka, and my wife with the

12 children? It was probably more comfortable up there.

13 Q. Could one say that if you spent the night in

14 Nikola Omazic's house rather than with your family, it

15 was because during the night, between the 16th and the

16 17th, you absolutely had no fears for the safety of

17 your family which was staying with Anto Bralo's?

18 A. I did not understand your question.

19 Q. I shall repeat the question. Since you spent

20 that night, between the 16th and the 17th in Nikola

21 Omazic's house rather than with your family, does that

22 not mean -- can one not conclude that you did not fear

23 for the security of your family there that night, you

24 were certainly that your family was quite safe in this

25 Anto Bralo's house?

Page 10141

1 A. The 17th, in the evening, I was in the house

2 with my wife. Could you please repeat your question

3 once again, please? I can't understand what you're

4 asking me to do.

5 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, do you want me

6 to ask the question once again? I should simply like

7 to -- 368 be tendered to the Tribunal. We shall give

8 the translation -- a better translation of that

9 document when it is finished and with all the revisions

10 and corrections that were indicated by Mr. Radovic.

11 Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier.

13 Mr. Susak?

14 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Re-Examined by Mr. Susak:

16 Q. In response to the Prosecutor's questions,

17 you say the people could go out of Anto Papic's house

18 and come back and go out and come back again?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. And before, when I asked you, you said that

21 some Muslims would go out of this house of Anto Papic's

22 and that they communicated with your wife.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, my next question: On the 16th of April,

25 did Muslims go out of Anto Papic's house and come back

Page 10142

1 in?

2 A. Well, they could have because Hasim's wife

3 herself, she went out and she sent to Anto Bralo's

4 house. So they were not forbidden to do so.

5 Q. I'm going to repeat my question. Did they go

6 out and come back in?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did they do that all day?

9 A. Yes, all day.

10 Q. In response to the Prosecutor's question and

11 also in response to my question, you said that evening

12 you and Anto Bralo came to the house of Anto Papic. It

13 was in the evening; wasn't it?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Could you tell us the reason why you came to

16 Anto Papic's house?

17 A. Anto Bralo and I did not have any

18 cigarettes. We came to Anto Papic's house, and we

19 asked someone for cigarettes. However, cigarettes were

20 given us to by Zilka, that is to say, Zilka Ramic. She

21 gave us about ten cigarettes in a box. Together with

22 Anto Bralo, I managed to see all of those who were

23 present there in the house of Anto Papic.

24 Q. You said that on the 16th of April, you and

25 Anto Bralo went to milk cows?

Page 10143

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you do that on the 17th of April?

3 A. Yes. We did that until we went to the front

4 line, that is to say, until the 19th.

5 Q. Was this milk intended for the Muslim

6 children who were in Anto Papic's house?

7 A. It was intended for them and for our own

8 families. No one made any distinction between the

9 children. It was taken to Bralo's house and it was

10 taken to Anto Papic's house.

11 Q. Do you know who brought food supplies to Anto

12 Papic's house that day and whether Muslim children got

13 clothes as well?

14 A. Yes. As for milk, it is Anto Papic who

15 brought it in most of all, and he also brought in

16 clothes. He took care of them more than anyone, and he

17 also came to our place, to my wife, and then to Finka

18 Bralo's and then clothes were given for the children,

19 for all the children, for all the Muslim children at

20 Anto Papic's house.

21 Q. So these Muslims who were in Anto Papic's

22 house, you said that they got out, they would go out,

23 and you said that they had a high degree of

24 communication with you, the neighbours who were there,

25 for example, with your wife, et cetera.

Page 10144

1 A. Yes. Yes. They would go and make phone

2 calls to call Hasim's wife's son.

3 Q. So Muslims would come to Bralo's house even

4 before you and Anto Bralo, in the evening, stopped by

5 at Anto Papic's house?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Was that a sign that there was friendly

8 communication between you?

9 A. There was always this friendly communication

10 and then that's the way it was too. We were friends

11 and we would spend time together.

12 Q. The Prosecutor asked you about the reason why

13 you came to Nikola Omazic's house, and you said that

14 there were two reasons for this. First all, that you

15 got your salary and also that you had workers who were

16 working at your own house.

17 A. I came home. It was a regular thing to do,

18 because I had a day off. At the same time, there was

19 construction going on at my house.

20 Q. How old was your child then?

21 A. At that time four.

22 Q. Had you known that a war would break out in

23 your immediate neighbourhood, would you have relocated

24 your child, a minor, and your wife from Nikola Omazic's

25 house?

Page 10145

1 A. Yes. Yes, I would have, by all means, like

2 anyone else, if I had known.

3 Q. The Prosecutor showed you this certificate

4 and that book too, that you were a member of the army

5 from the 16th of April, 1992, but you said that you

6 were first mobilised on the 19th of April, 1993, that

7 is to say, after the conflict?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell us, did you hear how it happened that

10 other people came to be on this list? Were you really

11 on this list because you were a member of the armed

12 forces, or was there another reason for this?

13 A. Please repeat your question once again.

14 Q. The Prosecutor showed you your signature

15 showing from when you had been a member of the HVO.

16 However, Mr. Kovac -- Mr. Kovac, you said you were

17 mobilised on the 18th of April.

18 A. 1993. 19th of April, 1993.

19 Q. How come you are on this list then?

20 A. Because somebody had entered my name.

21 Somebody had entered my name on the basis of the

22 census, so someone entered my name into these lists

23 too.

24 Q. How come you signed this?

25 A. I don't know how this happened. I don't

Page 10146

1 remember.

2 Q. And now tell me something else. You said

3 that you mostly stayed in Novi Travnik. Since you were

4 a member of the reserve force, did you get shares in

5 Novi Travnik?

6 A. Yes, yes, I have these shares and I can prove

7 this, but I haven't got these here with me.

8 Q. Just a minute, please. Do you have any

9 document showing that you became a shareholder?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you have this document?

12 A. Well, it's at my home.

13 Q. No, I'm asking you where it is. I'm not

14 asking you whether you have it here with you.

15 A. It's at my home.

16 Q. You're trying to tell me that you have a

17 document showing that you obtained shares in Novi

18 Travnik where you lived and where you worked on the

19 basis of the fact that you were a member of the reserve

20 force?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it possible for you to present this

23 document to the Court?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you going to submit this document to me

Page 10147

1 as soon as possible?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no further

4 questions. Thank you.

5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is

6 no objection to Exhibit P368 being admitted into

7 evidence, Counsel Susak, so it is admitted into

8 evidence.

9 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, at the same time,

10 I wish to tender D22/4.

11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Any objection? Any

12 objection from the Prosecution?

13 MR. TERRIER: No, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Admitted into

15 evidence.

16 Counsel Pavkovic?

17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I omitted to

18 tender the documents that were marked D7/6, and that is

19 a Defence Exhibit of Vladimir Santic.

20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is

21 no objection.


23 THE PRESIDENT: All right. So it is admitted

24 into evidence.

25 We don't have any questions for you,

Page 10148

1 Mr. Kovac. Mr. Kovac, thank you so much for coming

2 here to The Hague to give evidence in court. You may

3 now be released. Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

5 (The witness withdrew)

6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, are you going

7 to call witness number 3, Pranjkovic, today or

8 tomorrow, or what shall we do? Shall we go on with

9 your list?

10 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, it is another

11 witness, Katica Kovac, and then the Court is going to

12 decide whether we are going to question her or not. I

13 am neither for nor against, but I suggest that the

14 Court decides whether we continue the questioning

15 already today.

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we go on today because

17 we have a half an hour. Are you suggesting that we

18 should move into a closed session for Mrs. Kovac?

19 MR. SUSAK: No, I don't think that is

20 necessary because I'm not going to be quoting which

21 witness said what.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: I said so only because on

23 your list, next to her name, there is also, in

24 brackets, "(Closed session)." I don't intend to

25 suggest that we should have closed session. In

Page 10149

1 principle, all of our sessions should be open because

2 of the need for trials to be fair and public.

3 (The witness entered court)

4 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I got a message

5 from the registry, and that's why there's been a bit of

6 confusion.

7 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mrs. Kovac.

8 Would you please make the solemn declaration?

9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

11 truth.

12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

13 seated. Counsel Susak?

14 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.


16 Examined by Mr. Susak:

17 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Kovac.

18 A. Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon

19 to all present here in this courtroom.

20 Q. Could you introduce yourself to the Court?

21 Could you please give us your name and surname and tell

22 us when you were born and where, who you live with, and

23 please speak into the microphone.

24 A. My name is Katica Kovac. I was born on the

25 19th of November, 1962. I live with my husband and two

Page 10150

1 children.

2 Q. Could you please tell us whether you have a

3 house in Santici?

4 A. Yes. I built my house in Santici after the

5 war. I lived in my father's house.

6 Q. What's his name?

7 A. Nikola Omazic. The house is also in Santici.

8 Q. Could you please tell us where your husband

9 was born and where he is from?

10 A. He was born in Bucici, the municipality of

11 Novi Travnik.

12 Q. Did he work there or not?

13 A. My husband worked in a trade company called

14 Novotehna, Novi Travnik. He worked there as a

15 salesperson.

16 Q. So in Novi Travnik?

17 A. Yes, in Novi Travnik.

18 Q. And until you built your house, you said that

19 you lived in your father's house?

20 A. Yes, yes. For a certain period of time, we

21 lived in Bucici. When we decided to build a house in

22 Santici, then we moved to Santici to my father's house,

23 Nikola Omazic's house, and my husband worked in Novi

24 Travnik. He had transportation problems, so my husband

25 would spend the night often in Bucici at his parents'

Page 10151

1 place and he would come home only every now and then.

2 You never knew when he would come home exactly because

3 this depended on his work shifts and on whether he had

4 transportation. I was at home with the child I had

5 before the war.

6 Q. Very well. Did your husband ever register

7 Santici as his place of residence?

8 A. No, no. My husband did not register his

9 place of residence in the municipality of Vitez. He

10 had not made a definite decision yet with regard to his

11 place of residence. Nobody knew him there. And all

12 the mail, all the information he needed, he received in

13 Bucici at his parents' place.

14 Q. You also said that very few people knew him.

15 A. Yes, very few people knew him.

16 Q. Did your next-door neighbours know him?

17 A. Well, Anto Bralo knew him best of all because

18 he was our next-door neighbour and Drago Josipovic too

19 because Drago would spend quite a bit of time at our

20 place since his mother, who was very ill, would spend

21 quite a bit of time in my house simply to keep me

22 company because I was on my own with my child and so

23 that I would not be afraid.

24 Q. Tell me, did you help Drago Josipovic's

25 mother?

Page 10152

1 A. Yes, yes. I would cook and very often we

2 would have meals together, lunch, dinner, whatever, and

3 I spent most of my time with Luca.

4 Q. Since Drago Josipovic's mother was staying

5 with you, would Drago Josipovic stop by often?

6 A. Yes, yes, Drago would come and ask us whether

7 we needed something and we were in communication with

8 him.

9 Q. How come Drago Josipovic's mother would stay

10 with you so often rather than at her own place?

11 A. When the first conflict broke out between the

12 Muslims and the Croats, the barn of Drago Josipovic was

13 burned and also the house was damaged. Luca is an

14 elderly woman and she was ill, so she addressed me and

15 she stayed at my place. I helped Luca even before this

16 first conflict because Drago Josipovic's wife had work

17 duty and she was rather busy, and she did not have

18 enough time to dedicate to her mother-in-law.

19 Q. Are you trying to say that Slavica Josipovic

20 was too busy?

21 A. Yes, Slavica Josipovic worked -- worked for a

22 private individual and she had very many things to do,

23 so she did not have enough time for her mother-in-law.

24 Q. Did Drago have enough time for his mother?

25 A. Drago would spend a lot of time with his

Page 10153

1 mother and he was very attached to his mother.

2 Q. You said that Drago would come to your house.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you would go up there, would you see

5 them in their house or garden?

6 A. Yes, I would see Drago Josipovic very often

7 in the garden and I saw them sitting there together and

8 I had many opportunities of seeing Drago preparing food

9 for the winter or cooking lunch or whatever because his

10 mother was ill and she was not in a position to prepare

11 food that way.

12 Q. Very well. Where were you during the first

13 conflict, that is to say, October 1993?

14 A. During the first conflict, I was at my own

15 house -- in my own house, that is, and in the morning,

16 when the shooting started, I was in my own house. The

17 first thing that I heard was that Drago Josipovic's

18 stable had been set fire to and that his house had been

19 damaged.

20 Q. Frano Kovac [no interpretation].

21 A. My husband, one day prior to the conflict,

22 went to Anto Bralo's to cut wood, firewood, for the

23 winter.

24 Q. Who went with him?

25 A. Anto Bralo's late brother went with them and

Page 10154

1 Mirsad Osmancevic, our neighbour. They worked together

2 and they took part -- they helped us build our house,

3 in fact.

4 Q. Mirsad Osmancevic, do you know where his

5 house is located? Is he a Muslim or not?

6 A. Yes, he's a Muslim.

7 Q. Is his house standing today?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Could you tell us, please, who Mirsad

10 Osmancevic is, if you know him? Has he got a wife,

11 children?

12 A. Well, I can tell you something about Mirsad

13 Osmancevic. He is a Muslim by ethnicity, he has a

14 wife, Saiba, and three sons. I know that he was a

15 member of the BH army and that he went away from his

16 house and would spend five, six, or seven days away

17 from home, and this was his military duty. What he

18 did, I don't know. I don't personally know that. I

19 know that he was a member of the BH army.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you happen to

21 remember the 15th of April, 1993, and whether your

22 husband was at home that day or not?

23 A. In April, we started building our house, and

24 on the 15th of April, my husband was at home because we

25 had some work to do on the house.

Page 10155

1 Q. Just try and speak a little more slowly,

2 please.

3 A. Yes, I will. So my husband was at home on

4 the 15th because we did some work on the house.

5 Q. Did he leave?

6 A. Well, the shops are nearby, and we would buy

7 all we needed in the shop nearby. I think my husband

8 went to Vitez to buy some fuel because we used a motor

9 saw and needed petrol for this saw, and he went to the

10 petrol pump in Vitez to get the petrol.

11 Q. Now we'll move on to the 16th of April, 1993.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were you sleeping on the night between

14 the 15th and 16th?

15 A. In my own house.

16 Q. How did you wake up, and tell us how you

17 experienced the 16th of April? What was that day like?

18 A. Well, the 16th of April, in the morning, we

19 were woken up by the sound of shooting. We got up and

20 decided to move to Anto Bralo's house because his house

21 is more sheltered than my father's house. So we ran

22 across with our little girl to Anto Bralo's house. We

23 went the shortest route to Anto Bralo's house.

24 Q. And you --

25 A. It is in a sort of depression and it has a

Page 10156

1 basement.

2 Q. And if you look at the level of Nikola

3 Omazic's house and compare it to the level of Anto

4 Bralo's house --

5 A. Well, Anto Bralo's house lies lower, it is

6 lower-lying, and therefore we were safer there. It is

7 safer there and more protected than my father's house.

8 Q. And you say that you, your husband, and who

9 else?

10 A. My son Mario.

11 Q. Could you describe how you met Anto Bralo and

12 what happened there when you met him and when you came

13 there?

14 A. When we came there, we found Anto Bralo

15 standing in front of the house. I went into the house

16 to Finka, his wife, and my husband stayed outside in

17 front of the house with Anto, and they just said that

18 they had seen Drago and Anto Papic on the road and that

19 they would be going up to their place to see what was

20 happening, whether they knew what was happening.

21 Q. So you were in the house. Did Anto Bralo and

22 Franjo Kovac move over?

23 A. Well, we were in Finka's house and we saw

24 Frano Kovac and Anto Bralo moving, and Anto Papic and

25 Drago Josipovic, and we saw that Drago Josipovic and

Page 10157

1 Anto Papic were moving towards Nikola Omazic's house,

2 whereas Frano and Anto Bralo went towards Anto Bralo's

3 house, that is to say, towards the stable. You come to

4 the stable first, and they stopped there.

5 Q. Anto Bralo and Franjo Kovac, did they take

6 the field or did they take the road?

7 A. No, they took the road towards this

8 depression where the stable is as well.

9 Q. What about in front of the stable? Could

10 Anto Papic see them, or Drago Josipovic, could they see

11 them or not?

12 A. Yes, they could see them.

13 Q. But they could also not see them; isn't that

14 true?

15 A. Yes, they could not see them too, depending

16 on where they were standing. I don't know where they

17 had taken shelter, whether they went right behind the

18 stable or not.

19 Q. But they went in different directions, in

20 opposite directions?

21 A. Yes, Anto Bralo and Frano Kovac went

22 downwards whereas Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic went

23 upwards.

24 Q. That is, before they met.

25 A. Yes.

Page 10158

1 Q. If they met at all.

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Well, tell us: Did they meet or did they not

4 meet?

5 A. Would you repeat the question, please?

6 Q. You said that Anto Bralo and Franjo Kovac

7 went towards Anto Papic's stable whereas Drago

8 Josipovic and Anto Papic went in the direction of

9 Nikola Omazic's house, taking the road that way. Did

10 they meet on the road?

11 A. No, they could not have met because they went

12 in opposite directions.

13 Q. Thank you. You said you were in Anto Bralo's

14 house. Did you see who Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic

15 met on the road?

16 A. Perhaps out of curiosity, Finka and I

17 happened to look out of the window. We looked out of

18 the window of Finka Bralo's house, and we saw that Anto

19 Papic and Drago Josipovic met a group of women.

20 Q. And children.

21 A. Yes, and children.

22 Q. What happened then; did you see where they

23 moved off to?

24 A. Yes, we were interested in seeing who they

25 met and where they were going, but we couldn't

Page 10159

1 recognise whom they had met, but we saw that Drago

2 Josipovic and Anto Papic left with those women and

3 children towards Anto Papic's house.

4 Q. Could you tell us, please, where that meeting

5 took place between Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic with

6 the Muslims, that is to say, near Nikola Omazic's

7 house, in that vicinity?

8 A. How do you mean?

9 Q. I mean where they met.

10 A. Well, they met up above Nikola Omazic's house

11 or -- the nearest house was Nikola Omazic's house.

12 Q. Was that towards the road and the gate

13 towards the yard?

14 A. You mean the main road? No, it wasn't.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. Nikola Omazic's house is right by the road.

17 Q. On the 16th of April, 1993, did you happen to

18 see any other Muslims?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Do you know who else of the Muslims came to

21 Anto Papic's house?

22 A. To the house of Anto Papic? Well, there was

23 Fatima Ahmic with her husband Hasim and her

24 daughter-in-law and their three children; I saw Zilka

25 Ramic with her husband Cazim and his son Amir and

Page 10160

1 Zenur, the other son, and his wife and two children. I

2 also saw [redacted].

3 Q. [redacted]

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were there other Muslims in Anto Papic's

6 house who were refugees?

7 A. Yes, there was an old woman there too, and I

8 know that she was a refugee from Prijedor and that she

9 was put up in Fatima Ahmic's old house.

10 Q. In addition to the Muslims in Anto Papic's

11 house, were there Croats there as well?

12 A. In Anto Papic's house there was Papic's

13 family, his sister. She's a very old lady. His wife

14 was there and her two children, and Anto Papic's wife

15 was ill.

16 Q. Would you tell us, please, once again how

17 many Muslims there were in Anto Papic's house and how

18 many Croats, or tell us the total number of people who

19 were there?

20 A. As far as I was able to see and judge, there

21 were five Croats, that is to say, his wife, his sister

22 and the children, and 27 or 28 Muslims, which makes a

23 total of about 32 people.

24 Q. Did you go to Anto Papic's house on the 16th

25 of April?

Page 10161

1 A. Yes, did I.

2 Q. At what time?

3 A. It was about 10.30 when I arrived at Anto

4 Papic's house. I went there because Fatima came to

5 Anto Bralo's house, and she was there with us, and she

6 said that Fahran had died, and we were all very sorry,

7 and she told us that Fahran's children were poorly

8 clothed. So I went at 10.30.

9 Q. That was at Anto Bralo's house?

10 A. And when Fatima told me -- I went to Anto

11 Papic's. It was half past ten. I took two trainers

12 belonging to my son, sweat-shirts. My son was smaller,

13 but I thought these clothes might come in handy, these

14 track suits.

15 Q. Do you know how these Muslims came to be in

16 Anto Papic's house?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. You mentioned Cazim Ramic. How did he happen

19 to be there with his people?

20 A. I didn't see Cazim Ramic personally, but I

21 saw him when I was in the house. So I don't know how

22 he, Cazim, that is, with his family got there.

23 Q. And what about the Osmancevics?

24 A. I know how the Osmancevics came there.

25 Saiba, with her children, started out towards Anto

Page 10162

1 Papic's house, and with her husband as well, and when

2 she enter the house she saw that there were a lot of

3 people there, a lot of refugees, and she continued on

4 along -- continued towards Rovna with her children.

5 Q. Who with?

6 A. I think she went on her own. She was alone.

7 Q. Are you certain or don't you know?

8 A. I don't know exactly. I don't know how she

9 went to Rovna, but I do know that her husband, some 15

10 or 20 minutes later, went to Rovna and rang us up at

11 Anto Bralo's house for Franjo Kovac and Anto Bralo to

12 go to Jozo Cerkez's house.

13 Q. Just one moment, please. We seem to have

14 missed a step in this description. You said the women

15 and children of Mirsad Osmancevic had gone to Rovna; is

16 that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After that do you know how Mirsad Osmancevic

19 went to Rovan?

20 A. Yes, I do. Mirsa Osmancevic went to Rovna

21 with Drago Josipovic. Drago Josipovic gave Mirsad a

22 vest and he went to Rovna. Drago came back to us and

23 Mirsad stayed at Jozo Cerkez's house. Saiba went to

24 see whether Jozo would take her in, and when he said he

25 would, her husband turned up. While I was in Anto

Page 10163

1 Bralo's house, Mirsad telephoned --

2 Q. Let's make a break here and pause so that the

3 interpreters can catch up.

4 A. Mirsad rang us up, because he said he didn't

5 dare come from Rovna alone. Jozo Cerkez was

6 threatened, that is, because he had taken Mirsad in,

7 because everybody knew that Mirsad belonged to the BH

8 army. Mirsad then called Franjo Kovac and Anto Bralo

9 to come and fetch him. They weren't there. We told

10 Mirsad they weren't there because they had gone out to

11 feed Marija Papic's livestock.

12 Q. In the afternoon?

13 A. Yes, in the afternoon. When they returned

14 from Marija Papic's house, they told us that Mirsad had

15 telephoned and they wanted to go to Rovna but Mirsad

16 had already arrived with his wife and children to Anto

17 Papic's house.

18 Q. I'd now like to ask you whether Anto Papic

19 and his family took them in immediately.

20 A. Yes, they did.

21 Q. You said that at Rovna, in Jozo Cerkez's

22 house, Mirsad Omazic was there with his children?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you tell us who threatened them? Do

25 you know?

Page 10164

1 A. I don't know, but somebody did threaten them.

2 Q. When Mirsad Osmancevic came back in the

3 evening --

4 A. Yes, it was towards evening.

5 Q. -- and when he told you that they had been

6 threatened, were any of you frightened? Were you

7 afraid?

8 A. Of course we were afraid, because we were

9 protecting a member of the BH army. Jozo Cerkez was

10 threatened precisely for that reason, because that

11 individual was put up in his house.

12 Q. Did you feel that Anto Papic and Drago

13 Josipovic were nervous in any way?

14 A. Yes. Anto Papic kept saying that he was

15 afraid and Drago did too, but what could we do? The

16 man was there with his wife and his three little

17 children, and Drago said that they should stay in Anto

18 Papic's house because they were all Muslims and so it

19 was better they stick together.

20 Q. When Drago Josipovic left with Mirsad

21 Osmancevic and went to Novna, you said, do you know if

22 he was -- if Drago Josipovic helped in him any other

23 way, Mirsad Osmancevic, that is? Do you know whether

24 he gave him his vest?

25 A. Yes. He gave him a vest and that he left

Page 10165

1 towards Rovna wearing a camouflage vest. That's what

2 Mirsad told us. He said he had gone to -- he had been

3 wearing Drago Josipovic's camouflage vest.

4 Q. We have been mentioning Anto Papic and Drago

5 Josipovic here today. Will you tell us what Drago

6 Josipovic looked like on that particular day? What was

7 he wearing?

8 A. Drago Josipovic was wearing a vest, an army

9 vest, and jeans.

10 Q. Was it a camouflage vest?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. Did he carry a rifle?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know anything about how [redacted]

15 reached Anto Papic's house?

16 A. Yes, I do. [redacted]came accompanied by Jozo

17 Livancic.

18 Q. Did you see that?

19 A. Yes, I did. I went to Anto Papic's house,

20 towards my own house, toward Nikola Omazic's house,

21 because I had some livestock to tend to as well, and I

22 saw Jozo leading [redacted], her mother, and their two

23 children. There seems to be something wrong with my

24 headset. They're falling off.

25 Q. Do you know who went to fetch [redacted]

Page 10166

1 to Anto Papic's house?

2 A. On the next day, you mean?

3 Q. On the 17th.

4 A. I heard about this. I didn't see it, but I

5 heard that Drago Josipovic had been asked by Fatima to

6 go and fetch her, Fatima Ahmici, that is.

7 Q. To bring them?

8 A. Yes, to fetch them. Fatima told me that when

9 she came to my house to use the phone.

10 Q. You said you saw the meeting between Drago

11 Josipovic and Anto Papic with Fatima Ahmici and her

12 family?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did Drago Josipovic behave on the

15 occasion?

16 A. I couldn't see Drago immediately. I did see

17 him meet up with them, but I couldn't see his face and

18 his behaviour towards Fatima, but Fatima told me that

19 Drago had cried because of Fahran. He was very sorry

20 to learn of Fahran, and that she liked Drago very much,

21 and that Drago is a very good man. When she came to

22 use the telephone --

23 Q. We're talking about Fatima. We said that

24 Fatima was in Anto Bralo's house. That's right; isn't

25 it?

Page 10167

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Did she also go to Nikola Omazic's house that

3 day?

4 A. Yes, she did.

5 Q. Tell us how that came about.

6 A. When I was at Anto Papic's house, Fatima

7 asked me whether she could use my telephone, because

8 Anto Papic's house did not have a telephone. I told

9 Fatima that she could come to my house, that is to say,

10 to Nikola Omazic's house, whenever she wanted to and

11 use the phone whenever she wanted to. So she came to

12 call up her other son Nevzudin in Vitez.

13 Q. Her other son. The son that was alive?

14 A. Yes. And told him that had Fahran had died,

15 and Nevzudin asked whether Drago was there and whether

16 Drago could help her in any way, and I heard her

17 telling her son Nevza that had Drago known of this

18 conflict, he would have helped and saved her son.

19 Q. How long did Fatima stay in your house?

20 A. She was with me for about half an hour.

21 Q. Did you have a cigarette, have some coffee?

22 A. We were sitting down and she had a smoke. I

23 am not a smoker.

24 Q. And after that, that day, did you meet

25 again?

Page 10168

1 A. Yes. Fatima came to my house on the 17th.

2 On the 17th, she came to ask whether she could call her

3 son in Memso, in Vitez, to tell him that they were

4 leaving Anto Papic's house and moving over to UNPROFOR,

5 that is, that UNPROFOR would take them over from Anto

6 Papic's.

7 Q. Did she say -- did she mention Drago

8 Josipovic again?

9 A. Yes. That morning she did mention Drago.

10 Q. Was he helping her again?

11 A. Yes. She told me that Drago had drawn her

12 attention a number of times to be careful because after

13 that first conflict a bomb was thrown into the house of

14 another Muslim, of Mehmed Alic, that they had to take

15 care, there were all sorts of people. So they should

16 really take care and not to move about very much and to

17 move around warily.

18 Q. So it was a suggestion made in good faith.

19 A. Yes, that is what.

20 Q. Did Fatima describe him in a favourable light

21 or not?

22 A. Yes. Fatima always painted him in a very

23 favourable light and said she loved him as if he were

24 her own son.

25 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, we should

Page 10169

1 adjourn now until tomorrow at 9.00.

2 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Susak, could he tell us if

3 the third witness on the list is still on the list, or

4 is he coming tomorrow or during this week?

5 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, could you tell

6 us tomorrow if you are calling Mr. Pranjkovic?

7 MR. SUSAK: Yes, I intend to. He'll be here

8 tomorrow.

9 JUDGE CASSESE: So we'll adjourn now.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

11 at 1.32 p.m., to be reconvened on

12 Wednesday, the 23rd day of June, 1999

13 at 9:00 a.m.