1Wednesday, 23rd June, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-16-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and
9 Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will continue
11 with the examination in chief of our witness.
12 Before we start, may I call upon Counsel
13 Susak to try to refrain from mentioning those one or
14 two names which were mentioned yesterday many times,
15 and we were obliged to have redaction to redact the
16 names. If you feel that you have to mention those
17 names, and these are names of protected witnesses,
18 could you please then maybe ask me, and we will go
19 into a private session.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: I think yesterday you were
23 still examining the witness. I don't remember whether
24 you were through.
25 MR. SUSAK: Yes, I was, and I'm to continue
2 WITNESS: KATICA KOVAC (Resumed)
3 Examined by Mr. Susak:
4 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Kovac.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. We're about to enter our examination.
7 Yesterday we covered quite a lot of ground,
8 and now I should like to talk about the 17th of April,
10 Did you tell us clearly yesterday when the
11 Muslims left towards the road from the house of Anto
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What time was that?
15 A. That was sometime in the morning.
16 Q. Drago Josipovic, did you see him in the
18 A. On the 17th of April, Drago Josipovic was in
19 my house, and we went over to Anto Bralo's to have
20 coffee together. Drago Josipovic spent the night in my
21 house. In the morning, we were at my place. Then we
22 went over to Anto Papic's house, had a coffee with him
23 together. We stayed --
24 Q. Do you mean Anto Papic or Anto Bralo?
25 A. Anto Bralo. I'm sorry, I apologise. We
1talked there, and Marija Papic asked my husband and
2 Anto Bralo to go to her house and feed the livestock,
3 and Drago went to his house to feed the poultry which
4 Drago Josipovic had.
5 Q. Just one more question on the subject.
6 Who went with the Muslims toward the road?
7 A. It was Anto Papic who went with them.
8 Q. Was he the only Croat?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. We are still talking about the 17th of April,
11 '93. Did Anto Papic come to your house at around noon
12 or in the afternoon; on the 17th, that is? On the 17th
13 of April, did Anto Papic come to see you or not?
14 A. Do you mean morning or afternoon?
15 Q. Any time of the day.
16 A. When he took away the Muslims, Anto Papic did
17 come to my house. He asked me for some clothes, if I
18 had any clothes for a small child, because Mirsad
19 Osmancevic's wife had a small child and she didn't have
20 enough clothes for the child, so that Anto Papic came
21 to me because I also had a small child, to give him
22 something, if I had any. He asked for milk. We had a
23 cow, so he asked if I could give them some, if I could
24 spare some, so I still gave it to them.
25 Q. Did you give him all that?
1A. Yes. I gave him what I could for the baby,
2 because my son is slightly older than Osmancevic's son,
3 but I gave him what small sizes I had and I gave him
4 some milk. But Anto Papic brought it back to me. He
5 did not manage to give it to them. I don't know why.
6 Q. You said that your husband practically lived
7 in Novi Travnik and worked?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was he doing something with his shares in
10 Novi Travnik and do you know anything about that?
11 A. Yes. My husband was given the shares from
12 the Novi Travnik municipality.
13 Q. Do you know when -- was your husband
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. While he was in Santici?
17 A. My husband was mobilised on the 19th of
18 April, 1993.
19 Q. Before that, was he ever mobilised before
20 that and did he go anywhere?
21 A. It was like this: My husband was not
22 mobilised, but he did go out to stand guard, mostly
23 because he would be bored and in order to meet people
24 in the area. He knew the people there very little, so
25 as to get to know people a little better, he went out
1to stand guard, but very seldom. I mean village
2 guards, village guards around our road.
3 Q. How do you explain that it says there that
4 he's a member of the regular HVO force and that before
5 he was mobilised on the 19th of April, '93, he is
6 registered there prior to that date? What will you say
7 about that?
8 You told us he was mobilised on the 19th of
9 April, 1993. Was that the first time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So how is it that these documents say, when
12 he was issued those shares, why does it say that he had
13 been mobilised before that?
14 A. When the war was over, couriers went around
15 the village and were making a sort of a list, and we
16 were told that they were doing it because of the
17 shares, to know when people were mobilised so that that
18 could be entered into that list. I asked that courier,
19 on my own responsibility, to write a different date so
20 that he could get better shares, because there were
21 stories that one could buy building materials for those
22 shares, and we were building our house. The courier
23 did not promise anything, but he said that he would try
24 to do something, and I do not know what date he put.
25 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions,
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
3 Are there any other Defence counsel prepared
4 to examine or cross-examine this witness?
5 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I apologise. I
6 completely forgot to show the aerial photographs to the
7 witness. I had them prepared in advance, and I simply
8 forgot about them. So may I please show them to
9 witness? Will the usher please help me?
10 Q. Please draw a circle --
11 JUDGE CASSESE: If you don't mind, may I ask
12 the registrar to first of all give us a number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It is D24/4.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
15 Counsel Susak?
16 MR. SUSAK:
17 Q. Mrs. Kovac, can you get your bearings on that
18 map? Can you find your way around the map? You can
19 turn it round if you think it will be easier for you.
20 A. May I only ask if this here --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the other witness's
22 microphone be switched on, please. Could we have the
23 other microphone switched on.
24 MR. SUSAK:
25 Q. Will you try to find Musafer Puscul's house?
1A. I'm not -- this photograph is not quite clear
2 to me, but I think that Musafer Puscul's house is over
4 Q. Will you put a circle?
5 A. (Witness complies)
6 MR. SUSAK: Usher, could you please offer her
7 this copy here, it is clearer, I think, and then I
8 believe she will be able to orient herself better.
9 A. Yes, I don't quite find my way about this
11 This is Ogrjev, isn't it? This is Musafer
12 Puscul's house.
13 Q. Will you please make a circle?
14 A. (Witness complies)
15 Q. Will you now make a circle around Asim and
16 Ramiz's house.
17 No, put an "A" next to Musafer Puscul's
19 A. (Witness complies)
20 Q. Now draw a circle around Nazif, Asim and
21 Ramiz's house.
22 A. I believe it's these houses here.
23 Q. Will you please put small circles, and then
24 mark them all together with a "B".
25 Now will you please draw a line from Musafer
1Puscul's house to those houses up towards the road.
2 A. And you want me to put an arrow?
3 Q. Yes, do put an arrow.
4 Can you see from Musafer Puscul's house in
5 the direction of those houses?
6 A. Yes. This area between Musafer's house and
7 these houses is in the clearing, it is all clear, so
8 that you can see. There are no trees, and you can see.
9 Q. So you can see?
10 A. Oh, yes, you have a full view.
11 Q. Will you now find Fahrudin Ahmic's house and
12 draw a circle around it? Just slowly.
13 A. Somewhere here (marks).
14 Q. And Anto Papic's?
15 A. Anto Papic is here (marks).
16 Q. Will you please move it a little, because we
17 can't see. Take care. Don't make a circle around
18 Omazic, so think.
19 A. Yes, this is Omazic's house, and this is
20 Papic's house.
21 Q. Now, up there, put a "C" next to Fahrudin
22 Ahmic's house, put a "C", and next to Anto Papic's, put
23 a "D".
24 Will you now draw a line from "C" to "D", in
25 the direction of "D"?
1A. (Witness complies)
2 Q. Now, if you look from this house, could you
3 see if a group of people or somebody moved down this
5 A. Yes, it is all quite clear. It is where
6 people grow vegetables.
7 Q. And what about cereals?
8 A. Yes, cereals too.
9 Q. On the 16th/04, was there lush vegetation or
11 A. No.
12 Q. Could one see?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As your house is down farther away from
15 Nikola Omazic's wood, or below it, could you put a
16 circle around it?
17 A. Do you mean my own house, or my father's
19 Q. No, not your father's but my (sic) house, the
20 house that you own.
21 A. I don't really quite find my way around this
22 photograph, but I think this is my house (marks).
23 Q. Will you then make a circle and put a "G"
24 next to it.
25 A. (Witness complies)
1Q. Now, will you tell us, from your house to
2 Anto Papic's house, which are Muslim houses, and then
3 you will put numbers to them. I shall repeat: From
4 Anto Papic's house towards the road, can you tell us
5 Muslim houses, either on the right or on the left side
6 of the road?
7 A. If I may, I should like to make a
8 correction. This is not my house. This is my house.
9 Q. Well then, put a circle around it.
10 A. Yes. I do apologise. Now I've found my way
11 around this. This is my house, and this is a "G", and
12 this is a Muslim house.
13 Q. Now, will you please tell us -- cross this
14 out and tell us which is a Muslim house, and put a
15 circle around it.
16 A. This is a Muslim house.
17 Q. Now put a circle, and put "1".
18 A. And the owner of this house is Zeno Ramic.
19 Q. And the other one?
20 A. The second one is a (indiscernible) house. I
21 put "2", isn't it? It is Cazim Ramic who is the owner
22 of this house. Do you want other houses towards Anto
24 Q. Are there any other Muslim houses?
25 A. No, not in the direction of Anto Papic's
2 Q. And in the direction of the road?
3 A. In the direction of the road, there are.
4 This is Osmancevic's house.
5 Q. Put a "3", then.
6 A. Yes. This is Nail's house.
7 Q. So put a "4". Give us the full name.
8 A. Mirsad Osmanecvic, Nail Ahmic.
9 Q. On the 16th of April, did any one of these
10 houses burn down?
11 A. On the 16th of April, not one of these houses
12 burnt down.
13 Q. Was anyone injured or killed from these
14 houses near Anto Papic's house?
15 A. From these Muslim houses, nobody was injured
16 in any way.
17 Q. I mean the 16th of April, '93.
18 A. Yes, on the 16th of April, nobody was wounded
19 or killed. On the 17th of April, Cazim Ramic's house
20 was put fire to.
21 Q. Was that the only house that was put fire to?
22 A. Yes. In our area, yes.
23 Q. What about other houses today?
24 A. They're all intact.
25 Q. So when you look from Anto Papic's house
1towards the road, who were people who were killed on
2 the 16th of April, '93?
3 A. If I look from the house, then next to the
4 road it was only Fahrudin Ahmic and Musafer was killed.
5 Q. What is his last name?
6 A. Puscul.
7 Q. Was anybody else killed apart from the two of
9 A. No.
10 Q. Next to the road?
11 A. No, before the road. Before the road. Next
12 to the road, only Musafer and Fahrudin.
13 Q. And nobody else?
14 A. It is these houses next to the road in my
15 area, and in all those other families --
16 Q. I wasn't asking you anything about that,
17 only Puscul and Fahrudin Ahmic. Did Drago Josipovic
18 and Anto Papic stand guard there?
19 A. No, Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic were on
20 duty here, along this road towards Anto Papic's house,
21 because this is really the strict area of our village,
22 and elsewhere were other people.
23 Q. So between Drago Josipovic's house to Anto
24 Papic's house, that is where they mounted guard?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. Thank you.
2 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions,
3 Mr. President.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder if we
5 can receive a copy of this particular aerial photograph
6 which has been marked, because we have been using the
7 big one, but of course, for the record, we need the
8 small one, and also with a number.
9 (Trial Chamber confers)
10 JUDGE CASSESE: So we can probably give the
11 same number here. I mean, just discard this one and
12 give the same number, so D24/4. Thank you. D24/4.
13 MR. SUSAK: They're identical.
14 Mr. President, I should like to suggest at the same
15 time that this aerial photograph, D24/4, be entered
16 into evidence.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume there is no
18 objection from the Prosecution? It is admitted into
19 evidence, yes. Thank you.
20 I now turn to Counsel Pavkovic for the usual
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, other Defence
23 counsel have no questions for this witness.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So we may now
25 turn to the Prosecution.
2 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
4 Q. Good morning. My name is Franck Terrier. I
5 am one of the counsel for the Prosecution, and I have a
6 few questions for you. First of all, I should like to
7 know whether yesterday afternoon or evening you spoke
8 to anyone at all about your testimony.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Not even with your husband?
11 A. No. My husband wasn't well yesterday, and he
12 spent most of the day sleeping, and I went for a walk.
13 Q. In April 1993, your husband was working in
14 Novi Travnik, and you were living in your father's
15 house; that is, Nikola Omazic's house. Could you tell
16 us how frequently your husband came back to Ahmici?
17 A. My husband never knew exactly when he would
18 come home. He would come when he had a free day, and
19 when he received his salary. He never knew when he
20 would be free, because he was working in a company that
21 worked on Sundays as well. So when he worked on a
22 Sunday, then he would have a working day off, and he
23 never knew which day that would be. He did his best to
24 spend that day on the construction of our house.
25 Q. Is it true to say that your husband was with
1his family on the 19th and 20th of October, 1992?
2 A. '92?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. My husband was at home then, because we went
5 to Anto Bralo's, who spent a lot of time working on our
6 house. My husband had a chainsaw, and his neighbour,
7 Anto Bralo, asked him to come over and help him cut
8 some wood. I think I that -- I remember that that is
9 what they did on the 19th to the 20th of October.
10 Q. Similarly, on the 15th and 16th of April,
11 1993, your husband was in Ahmici with his family?
12 A. Yes. On the 15th, we had a working campaign
13 on the construction of our house.
14 Q. In October and in April, did you consider the
15 presence of your house to be a fortunate event for your
16 family and for you?
17 A. Yes. I don't really know what to say. This
18 was a mere coincidence. We spent a lot of time working
19 on our house. I didn't actually participate, but I
20 prepared the activities because I was never sure when
21 my husband would come, and I was in a hurry to finish
22 the house.
23 Q. Madam, yesterday you mentioned Slavica
24 Josipovic, and you said of her that at that time,
25 referring to the period in 1993, that she was a very
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What do you know and what could you tell us
4 about her political activities and commitments?
5 A. I know that Mrs. Slavica Josipovic was a
6 member of the HDZ.
7 Q. Did Madam Slavica Josipovic talk to you or to
8 your husband about her political engagements?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did Drago Josipovic talk to you about matters
11 related to politics and the political commitments of
12 his wife?
13 A. No.
14 Q. After April 1993 --
15 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I think that these
16 questions are inappropriate regarding relations between
17 husband and wife, that is, Drago and Slavica Josipovic,
18 and it is inappropriate to ask the witness to comment
19 on their conversations, because everything relates to
20 individual responsibility in accordance with Article 7
21 of the Tribunal Statute.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, of course, but perhaps
23 the Prosecutor is going to explain to us what is the
24 relevance, in his opinion, of the questions he has just
1MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, for the
2 information of the Tribunal, I'm trying to set the
3 grounds for these facts, and it is not without interest
4 and it is quite relevant, in my view, to know the
5 political, moral, philosophical context Drago Josipovic
6 developed. The witness has told us, but it seems to me
7 that a question deserves to be reviewed, especially
8 since during her examination in chief, the witness
9 mentioned Slavica Josipovic and referred to her
10 important activities, implying that those important
11 activities of Madam Josipovic had an effect and had
12 consequences on the behaviour of Drago Josipovic, who
13 had to do more of the home duties, if I understood well
14 the testimony we heard yesterday.
15 Therefore, I consider these questions to be
16 quite pertinent. But of course the Judges will not
17 place on the shoulders of Drago Josipovic anything that
18 relates to his wife.
19 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, yesterday mention
20 was made of Slavica Josipovic indeed, but rather about
21 her work and not about her political engagements. So
22 the Prosecutor has shifted from one area to another.
23 It was stated that she was very busy because
24 she worked in a private company both in the morning and
25 in the afternoon, so no question was raised regarding
1her political activities.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: I consider that within the
3 bounds indicated very clearly by the Prosecutor, the
4 question is quite relevant. Of course, we need to
5 understand the context, what was happening. Perhaps
6 you could rephrase your question to limit its reach.
7 MR. TERRIER: I'm going to go on to another
8 series of questions, Mr. President, but if you wish me
9 to rephrase my question, I can do so.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: No, it's not necessary if
11 you're going on anyway.
12 MR. TERRIER: Yes, I am.
13 Q. Madam, coming to the 16th of April, 1993, you
14 told us that you and your husband were woken up by
15 shots that you heard in the vicinity of your house. At
16 that moment, you got up, you dressed, and you went
17 towards Anto Bralo's house; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. We went towards Anto Bralo's house
19 because it was the house closest to ours and his house
20 was made from stronger material than my father's and it
21 was dug into the ground, and that was the reason why we
22 went there. That is what I said yesterday, anyway.
23 Q. Had it been envisaged in advance that in the
24 case of any difficulties or conflicts, you should seek
25 refuge in Anto Bralo's house? Was this conveyed to you
1by any authority; by the civil defence, perhaps, in
3 A. No. The house that we took shelter in when
4 the situation was tense due to Serb aggressors was that
5 of Nail Ahmic. Nobody had designated Anto Papic's
6 house as a shelter or anything like that, but we did so
7 of our own accord. We went to Anto Bralo's house
8 because we considered it to be safer than my father's,
9 which was very old and there was no concrete slab and
10 it was built some time ago from poorer material.
11 Q. Could you tell us how long it took you to
12 reach that house and at what time you reached Anto
13 Bralo's house? Could you be more specific?
14 A. We got up as soon as we heard the fire. It
15 took us perhaps two or three minutes to reach Anto
16 Bralo's house, but we maybe spent some five minutes to
17 get dressed and to get our three-year-old child ready
18 and for us to decide where we would go. So perhaps we
19 were in his house about twenty to 6.00 in the morning.
20 Q. You told us yesterday that having arrived at
21 Anto Bralo's house, you noticed Anto Papic and Drago
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you tell us when you saw them, at what
25 point in time?
1A. I didn't say that I saw them when I reached
2 Anto Bralo's house, but I said that when I entered
3 Finka and Anto Bralo's house, that we looked through
4 the window and that we saw Drago Josipovic and Anto
5 Papic near my father's house. That could have been
6 about a quarter to 6.00, maybe a couple of minutes
7 before that, and my husband and Anto Bralo stayed in
8 front of the house and decided to go towards them,
9 towards the road. We were watching all this through
10 the window, and we saw that Anto Bralo and Franjo Kovac
11 wanted to reach Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic, but
12 Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic went towards the road
13 and Anto and Franjo went towards the stable of Anto
15 Q. You probably have already told us, but could
16 you please repeat where Drago Josipovic was when you
17 saw him on the 16th of April around quarter to 6.00 in
18 the morning, according to what you have just told us?
19 Where was Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic, where were
20 they standing when you saw them?
21 A. You mean at a quarter to 6.00 in the
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic were moving
25 along the road from Anto Papic's house to Nikola
1Omazic's house. They were closer to Nikola Omazic's
3 Q. At that moment, was Drago Josipovic wearing
4 the blouse of the uniform that you described yesterday,
5 and was he carrying the weapon that you mentioned
6 yesterday in your examination in chief?
7 A. I don't know. I couldn't say that, because
8 we were looking at that through Finka Bralo's window.
9 Whether he was wearing this vest and carrying a rifle,
10 I'm not sure of that.
11 Q. But I'm not wrong, am I, that you said
12 yesterday that Drago Josipovic on that day was carrying
13 a weapon?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember when you saw that weapon?
16 A. When I personally met Drago Josipovic, and
17 this must have been around 9.00 because we were, all of
18 us, in between these two houses, Anto Bralo's and
19 Nikola Omazic's, and Josipovic was wearing the vest and
20 carrying the rifle. We were moving around, all of us,
21 and we could see each other on that day.
22 Q. Are you certain regarding the weapon, because
23 in the testimony given to us -- in the statement given
24 to us by the Defence, it says that you were going to
25 tell us that Drago Josipovic was without a weapon, and
1now today you're quite certain that he was carrying a
3 MR. SUSAK: I said that he was without a
4 weapon. That is only my note and the witness didn't
5 sign anything, because at that time -- I won't go into
6 it now, whether she saw the weapon or not through the
7 window. What I considered important was the first
8 moment when she saw him, whether he was wearing a
9 weapon or not. The witness did not sign that
10 statement, nor did I write down that Drago Josipovic
11 was carrying a weapon in the morning at 5.00, after
13 A. I'm saying also that I didn't say that Drago
14 had --
15 (Trial Chamber confers)
16 JUDGE CASSESE: The objection is rejected,
17 and I should like to ask the Prosecutor to continue
18 with the same line of questioning or any other
19 questions that he has.
20 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Madam, on the 16th of April, 1993, at any
22 time during the day, did you see or notice Drago
23 Josipovic's family, and particularly his wife and his
25 A. Drago Josipovic's family I did see that
1morning; not his mother, but I did see his wife.
2 Q. Could you tell us when you saw his wife? At
3 what time on that day, the 16th of April?
4 A. I saw his wife in the morning in Anto Papic's
5 house when she came to talk to refugees who were in
6 Anto Papic's house, and she offered to help them, if
7 necessary. I asked her where she was, and she told me
8 that with her own car, mother-in-law and children, she
9 had gone to Rovna because her parents were from Rovna,
10 and that she had come to Anto Papic's house to offer
11 those people her assistance, as far as that was
13 But I didn't see the mother that day. Drago
14 Josipovic's mother is quite old and she could not walk
15 alone, so her daughter-in-law transported her, together
16 with the children, with her own car to Rovna, according
17 to what she told me.
18 Q. Could you tell us whether at any point in
19 time during that day, after a quarter to 6.00, the time
20 when you saw Drago Josipovic, did Drago Josipovic have
21 the opportunity or occasion to take care of his
22 family? I'm thinking of his children and his mother.
23 A. In the morning, about 5.30, there was very
24 heavy shooting, and I believe that Drago Josipovic was
25 thinking of his wife, children, and mother. As for
1whether he had an occasion to go home, I don't think
2 so, because this was a clear space and there is no
3 shelter. The path to his road from Anto Bralo's is
4 exposed. These are all fields, and there's no shelter,
5 so I don't think that Drago went towards his house, but
6 I cannot guarantee that.
7 Q. You're telling us, madam, that when the
8 shooting started at 5.30, Drago Josipovic was not in
9 his own house?
10 A. I didn't say that. I didn't say that he
11 wasn't in his house at 5.30. I didn't say that. I
12 said that I saw Drago when I crossed over to Anto
13 Papic's house, and I saw him through the window on the
14 road towards Nikola Omazic's house.
15 Q. You went to Anto Papic's house, as you told
16 us yesterday, to assist the Muslim refugees who were
17 there, and we were told that 27 or 28 Muslims had found
18 shelter in that house. You spoke --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You spoke of Fatima, her husband,
21 daughter-in-law, and grandchildren. Did you see any
22 other Muslims heading towards Anto Papic's house?
23 A. I did see Suhreta's family when she went over
24 to Anto Papic's house, and I said yesterday that Jozo
25 Livancic went to Anto Papic's house. I saw Mirsad
1Osmancevic with his wife and children going towards
2 Anto Papic's house, but later I heard that Mirsad
3 Osmancevic's wife did not stay in Anto Papic's house,
4 but that she went to Rovna, to Jozo Cerkez's house, and
5 that after some time, Drago Josipovic helped Mirsad to
6 go to Rovna, that he gave him his vest, and after
7 accommodating Mirsad in Jozo Cerkez's house, five or
8 ten minutes later Mirsad called up Anto Bralo's house
9 by phone -- I was present when he called -- and said
10 that Franjo Kovac and Anto Bralo should come because
11 Jozo Cerkez was under threat, because of Mirsad, as
12 Mirsad was a member of the BH army before the
14 My husband and Anto Bralo could not go and
15 fetch him because at that moment they were not in Anto
16 Bralo's house. When they tried to go there, he had
17 already reached Anto Papic's house with his wife and
18 children. I didn't see Zilka arrive, but I did see
19 Zilka and Kijazim with their daughter-in-law and sons
20 coming, but I saw them in the house. I think that is
21 what I said yesterday, and that is what I stand by, and
22 that is how it was.
23 Q. Could you explain, madam, the conditions
24 under which the Muslim refugees were accommodated in
25 Anto Papic's house? Do you remember that?
1A. Yes, I can, because I know Anto Papic's house
2 well. Anto Papic's house is small, old, with poor
3 facilities. There are two rooms and a corridor that is
4 being used as a kitchen to this day. He had two small
5 children, a sister who is rather old, and a wife, who
6 was not very healthy; she was sickly, and she died
7 during the war.
8 Twenty-seven or 28 refugees who were there
9 virtually had no proper conditions for accommodation,
10 because it is impossible to put up 30 people in two
11 rooms and give them any kind of comfort. The house has
12 no running water, no toilet, no bathroom. And Anto
13 Papic himself, let me put it this way, was not very
14 well off, and he was short of food for himself, and
15 never mind for so many people. He just couldn't look
16 after them. It was very difficult for him to look
17 after them even for 24 hours because of those
18 conditions and because of the conditions in his house.
19 Q. Yourself, madam, together with your son,
20 found shelter in Anto Bralo's house. How many refugees
21 were gathered in that house?
22 A. In Anto Bralo's house, the Croatian
23 inhabitants were coming, the Croatian refugees. I was
24 the first, with my son. I was followed by Marija Papic
25 and Ljubica Milicevic, with her daughter, and then came
1Serafina Vidovic with her husband, we call her Finka
2 Vidovic, and her husband. Then there was Jozo Santic,
3 an elderly man from our area. And I think no one
4 else. I think no one else.
5 Q. Could it be said that the conditions in Anto
6 Bralo's house were much better than those in Anto
7 Papic's house, the Croats on the one hand and Muslims
8 on the other?
9 A. Well, let me tell you, the conditions in Anto
10 Bralo's house are better. Anto Bralo's house had a
11 bathroom. Yes, the conditions were better, but nowhere
12 were conditions such as to be able to accommodate three
13 or four, never mind ten people. None of us had the
14 facilities to take in ten guests at the same time,
15 because as the host, you wish to extend hospitality to
16 those people, in a sense.
17 Q. Perhaps, also, it was not possible to
18 disperse the refugees. On the contrary, it was
19 necessary to gather them together. Was that your view?
20 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your
22 Q. What I'm trying to say is that if all those
23 refugees were gathered in the condition that you have
24 described in Anto Papic's house, and not spread out in
25 other houses, like Anto Bralo's, maybe it was decided
1that those refugees should not be dispersed, that they
2 should remain in a group.
3 A. I think that the refugees from Anto Papic's
4 house moved freely and came to Anto Bralo's house, but
5 they wanted to be together. Fatima came to Anto
6 Bralo's with her husband. Zilka came with her
7 husband. No member of Anto Bralo's family would have
8 sent them back. We would have taken them in just like
9 Anto Papic had done, but they wanted to be together. I
10 personally think it was easier for them to be together,
11 and they liked to be together. That is my view, my
13 Q. It is your opinion that I should like to
14 hear. Was it possible for those refugees to leave Anto
15 Papic's house, to cross the Lasva River on the Radak
16 Bridge and to seek shelter somewhere on the opposite
17 bank, on the side of Rovna? Would that be possible?
18 A. You mean could those refugees go towards
19 Rovna? Those refugees could go towards Rovna. Mirsad
20 Osmancevic did cross Radak's Bridge. I told you that
21 he went to Rovna, to Jozo Cerkez's house. Then there
22 was a threat to that house, and then he came back
23 across that same bridge, because that is the only link
24 to the village of Rovna. They could have, but they
25 moved freely, wherever anyone wanted to go. And Rovna,
1too, is a Croatian-majority village.
2 Q. Madam, you said that they could have, but
3 yesterday you told us that Mirsad Osmancevic, in order
4 to cross the bridge, needed a camouflage vest, which he
5 was lent by Drago Josipovic. So when you say that it
6 was possible, one has an ambiguous impression.
7 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I should like to
8 object to this question because the witness didn't say
9 a protective vest; she said a camouflage vest.
10 A. Mirsad did not ask for this vest, but Drago
11 gave it to him so that he shouldn't be mistreated or
12 provoked, because there were people, unknown people,
13 who might recognise Mirsad as a Muslim, but wearing a
14 vest, he would be safer. But it is not true to say
15 that he could not stay in Jozo Cerkez's house. They
16 received very well Mirsad Osmancevic's wife and
17 children, but someone, one of the soldiers, threatened
18 Jozo Cerkez that they would blow up his house because
19 he was taking in Mirsad and Mirsad was a member of the
20 BH army and war was being waged against the Muslims.
21 Q. Could you tell us, madam, how much time you
22 spent in Anto Bralo's house?
23 A. I was in Anto Bralo's house throughout that
24 day, but I went to my own house very frequently. The
25 distance between my house, Anto Bralo's, and Anto
1Papic's is very small. They are three houses that are
2 closest to one another. I would cross into my house
3 frequently. I had two cows, chickens, and other
4 livestock. I needed clothes for my three-year-old
5 child. So I would cross over to my house frequently,
6 and if my neighbour, Finka, didn't have something, I
7 would go to my own house to get it.
8 I spent most of the time at Anto Bralo's
9 house. Towards the evening we talked where we would
10 go, where we would spend the night, and I said that I
11 would go to spend the night with my child in my own
12 house because my child was most comfortable in his own
13 cot. I wouldn't sleep. I would watch out for the
14 safety of my children. Then my husband said that he
15 would also come to the house, and then Dubranka Santic
16 decided to spend the night with us, and then we asked
17 Drago Josipovic to come over and keep my husband
18 company in case that we women fell asleep.
19 So we spent the night in my house; that is,
20 in Nikola Omazic's house. The other Croatian refugees
21 stayed on in Anto Bralo's house. We did not sleep that
22 night, but we just relaxed, but were watchful. We had
23 to be ready at any moment in case firing should erupt
24 again because the children were with us there.
25 Q. During the days that followed, the 17th, the
118th, and the weeks that followed, did you stay in that
2 house, your father's house, Nikola Omazic's house?
3 A. On the 17th, in the morning, we went to Anto
4 Bralo's. I spent all the night in my own house, but
5 during the day I spent more time in Anto Bralo's house
6 than in my own. I went to my own house only when I had
7 to, but I spent all the nights in my own house.
8 When my husband was mobilised on the 19th, I
9 didn't dare sleep alone in the house. Then Drago
10 Josipovic's mother came to my house on the 19th of
11 April, and she stayed with me for a long time. Jozo
12 Santic, too, when my husband was mobilised, then Jozo
13 Santic came to spend the night at my place, and Simo
14 Vidovic stayed at Finka's, so that we would each have
15 an elderly man with us to provide some kind of
17 Q. Could you tell us, madam, how many people who
18 lived in your area were killed on the 16th or the 17th
19 of April? Do you have any idea of that?
20 A. I have already said along the road where we
21 lived from the road to Anto Papic's house, Fahran and
22 Puscul, Musafer Puscul, were killed.
23 Q. If you don't know, you don't know. I'm not
24 asking you the names. I just want you to tell us
25 whether you know how many people were killed in that
2 A. Two. In my area, from the road where Suhreta
3 Puscul is to the house of Anto Papic, two persons were
4 killed. And there are other areas which I didn't
6 Q. You don't know? A last question for you,
7 madam. You told us a moment ago that your husband kept
8 guard duty when he came to Ahmici in April 1993. Could
9 you be more specific and tell us with what weapon he
10 kept guard duty?
11 A. I didn't say that my husband went to Ahmici.
12 My husband went to Santici. When he had a day off, he
13 would come to Santici, not to Ahmici. My husband went
14 to keep guard duty, to spend his free time in that way,
15 and to associate with Bralo and Josipovic and Anto
16 Papic. Sometimes he had a wooden toy rifle with him,
17 which our children used to play with, because he didn't
18 have a rifle. So he would carry the children's toy
19 rifle with him.
20 Q. Thank you, madam.
21 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions,
22 Mr. President.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Susak?
24 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have
25 only two questions.
1Re-examined by Mr. Susak:
2 Q. You said that Slavica Josipovic and her
3 children went to Rovna in her car, as I heard?
4 A. Yes. I didn't see her going, but I heard
5 that Slavica had gone by car with her children to
7 Q. Did you hear when that was?
8 A. Slavica told me when we met in Anto Papic's
9 house -- it's very hard for me to say all these
10 names -- that she was awakened by gunfire and that she
11 fled in her car with her children to Rovna. She also
12 told me that her house had been damaged and that she
13 had seen, as she was leaving for Rovna, that the window
14 had been shattered and that the facade and roof were
15 damaged. She fled to Rovna in her car because it was
16 impossible to go on foot.
17 Q. You said that Mirsad Osmancevic went to Rovna
18 and so did his family?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could any of the Muslims in Anto Papic's
21 house have gone to Rovna?
22 A. Any Muslim, if he wanted to, if he knew
23 someone in Rovna, could have gone. Mirsad decided to
24 go because he and the children of Jozo Cerkez had very
25 close relations, so he decided to go to Jozo Cerkez's
1house because they were on very close terms. The other
2 Muslims who were staying in Anto Papic's house could
3 have gone to Rovna if they had known that they would
4 find someone there who would take them in, but they
5 were not so familiar with Rovna as they were with Anto
6 Papic's house, so of course they felt more comfortable
7 in Anto Papic's house because they knew him. When
8 there was gunfire, nobody was worried about the
9 conditions they would have to live in. The aim was to
10 survive and whether you would be able to lie down and
11 sleep or whether you would have to stand was not
13 Q. One more question. The Prosecutor asked you
14 if any Muslims had been killed in your neighbourhood,
15 and you answered, "Two." However, this is a broad
16 question. Can you tell us whether any of your Muslim
17 neighbours were killed in the vicinity of your house
18 or, rather, between Anto Papic's house and your house,
19 and where were these people killed and were they your
21 A. We had our own path leading from Drago
22 Josipovic's house to Anto Papic's house, and on that
23 lane, on the left and right side, no one was killed.
24 But there is also another lane which leads toward a
25 third road, and Fahran Ahmic and Musafer were killed on
1this other way. But on the lane leading to my house
2 and Drago Josipovic and Anto Bralo's house, no one was
4 Q. You say that none of your neighbours were
5 killed and that these two were killed. Can you tell us
6 how far the houses are from the road?
7 A. Their houses are close to the road.
8 Q. How many metres?
9 A. Well, Fahran's house is five to ten metres,
10 and Musafer's is some 15 to 20 metres away from the
12 Q. Well, it seems to me to be a bit more.
13 A. Musafer's house is close to their house, and
14 Fahran's and his mother's house -- well, in my opinion
15 it's close to the road. I never measured it.
16 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have
17 no further questions.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: We don't have any questions
19 for the witness.
20 Mrs. Kovac, thank you so much for testifying
21 in court. You may now be released.
22 (The witness withdrew)
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, may I ask you,
24 who is going to be your next witness, Mr. Pranjkovic?
25 MR. SUSAK: Ivo Pranjkovic. I believe that
1this will be very brief.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Pranjkovic. So it's
3 misspelled, yes. So his name has been misspelled in
4 the list. Ivo Pranjkovic.
5 You are not seeking any protective measures,
6 I gather.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone was not
8 switched on.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning,
12 Mr. Pranjkovic. Will you please make the solemn
14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
17 I wish to greet the Honourable Court and all
18 those present.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could you
20 please sit down, and I will call upon Counsel Susak to
21 start with the examination in chief.
22 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 WITNESS: IVO PRANJKOVIC
24 Examined by Mr. Susak:
25 Q. Good day, Mr. Pranjkovic.
1A. Good day to all.
2 Q. Will you please introduce yourself to the
3 Court? Would you tell us your first name, your last
4 name, your birth date, where you live, and where you
6 A. My name is Ivo Pranjkovic. I was born on the
7 30th of December, 1937, and I work in the Vitezit
9 Q. Were you a member of the HVO?
10 A. I was a member of the reserve.
11 Q. So you were in the reserve?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. We will proceed to ask specific questions.
14 Did you go to the front line facing the Serbs
15 or the Muslims during the war?
16 A. During the war, I was mostly in the village
17 guard and at a position which was called Kuber.
18 Q. Would you tell us what Kuber is?
19 A. It was said to be a strategic point, a place
20 where the borders of three municipalities meet, Zenica,
21 Busovaca and Vitez, where there is a plateau the size
22 of a soccer field which was supposed to be guarded
23 against Serbian forces who could have landed there.
24 Q. How many times did you go to Kuber?
25 A. I don't know exactly, but several times.
1Q. Where were you on the 15th and 16th of April,
3 A. At Kuber.
4 Q. So you were at Kuber?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When did you go there?
7 A. On the 13th of April.
8 Q. And the year?
9 A. It was 1993, wasn't it?
10 Q. So on the 13th of April, 1993?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know who else was there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Before you tell us who was there, could you
15 tell us what your position was there, who your
16 commander was?
17 A. I was the deputy commander in the group.
18 Q. Who was there in that group? Can you tell us
19 the persons' names?
20 A. On the 13th of April, we went there, and the
21 commander was Zeljo Livancic. There was Mirko
22 Livancic, Mirko Vidovic, Andjelko Vidovic, Anto Santic,
23 Vlado Santic, Stipo Grgic, Stipica Grgic, Ivo
24 Pranjkovic, Ivica Badrov, Ivica Safradin, Anto Buha,
25 Zarko Kristo, Andjelko Vidovic, Jakov Opacak, and Ivica
2 Q. So how many of you were there?
3 A. Fifteen.
4 Q. How long did you stay in Kuber?
5 A. We stayed until the day we were attacked and
6 had to withdraw from the positions.
7 Q. When was that?
8 A. On the 17th of April.
9 Q. Was it 1993?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How did you go to Kuber?
12 A. Well, we were sent there by the office for
13 defence, since we were not sent to some faraway
14 warfield, since we were in the village and the local
15 patrol. So when we had time, the defence office sent
16 us to Kuber.
17 Q. Were you on a list, or how did they know
18 about you? How did they know where you were?
19 A. Well, there were couriers in the village who
20 knew and who contacted -- the late Nenad Santic
21 cooperated with the office for defence and the
22 authorities, so they knew when someone was free, and
23 then they would send us to Kuber.
24 Q. So they would give them your details and you
25 would be sent there?
2 Q. You mentioned the authorities. What
3 authorities were you referring to?
4 A. I was referring to the municipality
5 authorities and the office for defence.
6 Q. Who was at the head of the municipal
8 A. It was Ivica Santic.
9 Q. Who was in the office for defence of the
10 Santici municipality?
11 A. Well, I think his name was Stipo Zigonja
13 Q. And Marijan?
14 A. Marijan Skopljak, yes.
15 Q. What was he?
16 A. Well, he was the president of the HDZ.
17 Q. You may have got the names mixed up. So Pero
18 Skopljak was the president of the HDZ?
19 A. Well, Marijan was in the government, but to
20 tell you the truth, I don't know exactly what his
21 function -- what his post was.
22 Q. Well, was there any civil defence in the
24 A. Yes, the civil defence existed from before,
25 and they were organised in some way and they performed
2 Q. Was there a municipal Territorial Defence
3 headquarters in Vitez?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You said that the civil defence had been set
6 up. Did anyone from the civil defence patrol the
8 A. Yes, from time to time when they were free.
9 Q. On the basis of what were these patrols
10 held? Did they agree among themselves or how was it
12 A. You mean the civil defence?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Well, in the same way as we did. When they
15 had time and when they wanted to.
16 Q. So was it a thing that you discussed and
17 agreed on?
18 A. Yes, of course, because the village had to be
19 defended against burglaries, looting, and such things
20 that were going on at the time.
21 Q. So you were a member of the reserve HVO. Did
22 you know that the military or civilian authorities
23 confiscated weapons from certain persons in the area of
25 A. No, I wasn't aware of this because I didn't
1move around very much.
2 Q. Did you hear about it?
3 A. Well, I heard something about some isolated
4 cases, but I can't comment on this.
5 Q. When you were in Kuber, you mentioned Zeljo
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said that he left when you did, that he
9 went to Kuber on the 13th of April?
10 A. Yes, and he was the commander of the group.
11 Q. And you, what were you?
12 A. I was his deputy.
13 Q. Could you tell us whether he survived or not?
14 A. Zeljo was killed on the 17th of April, when
15 we were attacked.
16 Q. At what time?
17 A. In the evening. It was between 18.00 and
18 18.30. I'm not sure exactly.
19 Q. Was Josko killed as well?
20 A. Yes, and Stipo Grgic and Niko Livancic were
21 also killed, and their bodies have never been found or
23 Q. So they were declared missing?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know the village of Santici?
1A. Yes, because I was born there and I still
2 live there.
3 Q. Do you know or have you heard about D.D.
4 Vitez? What is that?
5 A. It's a building construction company.
6 Q. Do they have a warehouse in Santici?
7 A. Yes. Well, they did then. Now it's
8 privately owned.
9 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I would like to
10 ask the usher to take these aerial photographs, and
11 then I will conclude my questioning.
12 Q. Could you please show where the Ogrjev
13 warehouse is belonging to the Vjeternica company which
14 we just mentioned?
15 THE REGISTRAR: This would be D25/4.
16 MR. SUSAK:
17 Q. Mr. Pranjkovic, I have a larger photograph.
18 It may be easier for you.
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. So you can compare the big and the small
21 photograph and then mark the small one, but it's easier
22 to find your way on the big one.
23 A. This is the main road (indicating), and I
24 think this is the building (indicating).
25 Q. Would you circle it, please, on the other
1photograph, on the small one? This is just to help you
2 recognise what is on the small photograph.
3 A. (Witness complies)
4 Q. Now circle Ogrjev.
5 A. I have.
6 Q. Mark it with the letter "A".
7 A. (Witness complies)
8 Q. Could you tell us where the road leads to the
9 right and to the left? This is the main road?
10 A. Well, yes, it's the same road.
11 Q. So if you were to take that road, where would
12 you be going, where would you arrive?
13 A. To Sarajevo and to Novi Travnik.
14 Q. So to the right, could you tell us where the
15 road leads?
16 A. You mean the main road?
17 Q. Does it go to Novi Travnik?
18 A. If I was looking ahead, it would go to
19 Travnik, and in the opposite direction, it would go to
20 Sarajevo or Busovaca. Well, first Busovaca and then
22 Q. Very well. So Busovaca and Novi Travnik.
23 Now we are at Ogrjev. Do you know whether
24 there is a fence around Ogrjev?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. What kind of fence it is?
2 A. Well, there are some concrete posts and wire.
3 Q. Could you tell us whose houses are to the
4 left or west of Ogrjev and whose houses are to the
6 A. To the east, since I know the place, the
7 house of Ismail Ahmic.
8 Q. Could you circle it, please, and mark it with
10 A. (Witness complies) Left of Ogrjev.
11 Q. Now look at the Ogrjev fence. So where is
13 A. It's here (indicating).
14 Q. Whose house is to the left?
15 A. To the left? To the left is the house of
16 Murad Djidic, number 1, Sefika Pezer, Josip Vidovic.
17 That's to the left or to the west.
18 Q. Could you please look at me, please? So
19 Ogrjev is over there. Do you know where Ismail Ahmic's
20 house is?
21 A. I know.
22 Q. To the east?
23 A. To the east, yes.
24 Q. Of what?
25 A. Of the Ogrjev building.
1Q. Whose house is on that side?
2 A. Mujo Ahmic and Mustafa Ahmic's house.
3 Q. Could you circle those houses, please, and
4 mark them "1", "2", and "3"? Where is Ogrjev?
5 A. Well, they are next to the Ogrjev fence
7 Q. You are indicating houses across the road?
8 A. Well, I don't find this photograph completely
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you, but
11 I'm wondering whether it is really so crucial for us to
12 have all the markings, because we know all these
13 places. We have dozens of aerial photographs, and also
14 we have a very good map produced by the Prosecution
15 with all the houses and the names and so on. Is it so
16 important? Also the witnesses can't get their
17 bearings, and I can understand why, because it's so
19 As I say, for the purposes of our
20 proceedings, I wonder whether it is very important for
21 us now to ask each witness to locate a particular
22 house. I can the understand the question of the
23 factory and the fence. Of course, we all know it is
24 important for you. But I mean why don't we concentrate
25 on this particular matter. Thank you.
1MR. SUSAK: Very well, Your Honour. I will
2 respect your decision, so I will only ask the witness
3 to enumerate the houses on the left side of Ogrjev and
4 on the right side of Ogrjev.
5 Q. Don't look at the photograph any more. Just
6 tell us Mr. Pranjkovic, just tell us whose houses are
7 to the east of the Ogrjev warehouse?
8 A. They are Muslim.
9 Q. Are they Muslim houses or Croat houses?
10 A. They are Muslim houses on the east. The
11 nearest are three houses; Ismail Ahmic, Mustafa Ahmic
12 and Mujo Ahmic.
13 Q. And to the west?
14 A. To the west, Murad Djidic, Ado Becirevic,
15 Josip Vidovic, Sefik Pezer and so on.
16 Q. Very well. Thank you. We have finished with
17 this area.
18 As for Zeljo Livancic, some say that on the
19 16th of April, he was in Ahmici and in Santici. What
20 do you say to that? Could he have been in Ahmici,
21 considering what you said?
22 A. I say that he was on Kuber with us and that
23 he couldn't have been there. He was with me and he was
24 killed there.
25 Q. So do you think it's true, or not?
1A. No, whoever said that was not telling the
3 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no further
4 questions. Thank you.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
6 Counsel Pavkovic?
7 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, the other
8 Defence counsel have no questions, but I have only one
9 comment: The witness listed the persons who were on
10 Kuber with him. I think he enumerated 15. But the
11 names of Zarko Kristo and Andjelko Vidovic are not in
12 the record.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: You heard these two names?
14 All right. So we will put the record straight and make
15 the necessary corrections.
16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.
18 I think, before we hear the Prosecution, we can adjourn
19 now for half an hour. So we will reconvene at five to
21 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Before I turn to the
24 Prosecution, let me tell you that on Friday we've got
25 to stop at 1.00 sharp, so we therefore wonder whether
1we could try to make an effort to get through with all
2 the witnesses by Friday at 1.00, the list, to go
3 through your list of witnesses. I, of course, am in
4 particular making an appeal to Counsel Susak. If need
5 be, we could start on Friday at 8.30, if we see that we
6 need some more time, 8.30. So this is just an appeal
7 to both parties to try to get through with the list of
8 witnesses by the end of this week.
9 You know why, because you know very well that
10 we will skip one week, and that means that if some
11 witnesses cannot be called to court, then they will
12 have to stay here for a week or go back to their
13 country and come back here. So it's time-consuming,
14 expensive, and also bad for the witnesses.
15 All right, so let's make an effort.
16 Mr. Blaxill?
17 Counsel Susak, did you want to say anything?
18 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I do hope that I
19 shall be up to the plan and we shall conclude with
20 examination of our witnesses as you just indicated.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
22 Mr. Blaxill?
23 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President, Your
24 Honours, good morning.
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
1Q. Mr. Pranjkovic, good morning to you, sir. My
2 name is Michael Blaxill. I'm one of the prosecutors in
3 this case, and I would like to ask you just a few
4 questions, sir, as a result of what you said here
5 today. Firstly, may I ask, where were you living in
6 April of 1993?
7 A. In Santici, the municipality of Vitez.
8 Q. Would Mr. Nenad Santic therefore have been a
9 neighbour of yours at that time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You have stated that you were in the -- what
12 became, at least, the HVO reserve forces; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When you were called to go to duty on Kuber,
16 how did you receive your instructions?
17 A. I received the instructions from the office
18 for national defence. There was a summons, and I had
19 to join the group.
20 Q. Would that be a summons by a visit from an
21 official, or would that be communicated perhaps by
22 telephone or some other form?
23 A. I received it in writing, as a summons.
24 Q. When you served on Kuber, did you do so in
25 the same unit on each occasion?
2 Q. When you reported for duty on Kuber, did all
3 of you from the unit serve at the same time, or did the
4 individuals rotate the duty at different times?
5 A. We all performed our duty equally. We went
6 when we were free, depending on how free one was, and
7 then he would be called up and asked to take up his
9 Q. How long would each person generally serve
10 when they went to the lines at Kuber?
11 A. From seven to ten days. Those were the
13 Q. So if I've understood you correctly, sir, you
14 would have individual rotation in the unit, so one man
15 might be serving seven days, his comrade would arrive,
16 then he would finish and leave, then another comrade
17 would arrive, and so forth; yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you reported for duty on the 13th of
20 April, 1993, did you in fact go to the lines with
21 Mr. Zeljo Livancic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What arrangements did you have during the
24 night up on Kuber? How did you arrange to stand guard
25 and/or rest your troops?
1A. That is correct. Some people would be on
2 duty for two hours, and then we would take shifts, and
3 it went on like that.
4 Q. Would it be correct that as the deputy
5 commander, would you take sort of one shift and be with
6 the men, and perhaps Mr. Livancic would take the other
7 shift while you rested? Did you share your command
8 duties that way?
9 A. Well, yes, more or less. As I was the
10 deputy, I was the one who took people -- who headed
11 people on shift more frequently, more often. Later
12 Zjeljo was in that building, or rather in that shed
13 that we used, but at times he was the one who headed
14 the shift.
15 Q. So if you were heading the shift, you would
16 actually be in the trenches, in the front-line trenches
17 with the men; is that correct?
18 A. It is. Yes, I would take men to those
20 Q. And the shed that was used, about how far
21 from the trenches was that shed?
22 A. About 300 metres.
23 Q. Was the shed visible from the trenches?
24 A. No. No, because it was in the wood.
25 Q. Can you recall, sir, what time was the last
1time you saw Mr. Livancic on the 15th of April, 1993?
2 A. He was with us all the time, so I just don't
3 know. How can I define the time? We were together.
4 We were together in that shed.
5 Q. But do you recall any time, say, on the
6 evening of the 15th, when perhaps you might have been
7 in the trenches and Mr. Livancic had a period of time
8 back in the shed?
9 A. No. Usually, being one of the older members
10 of the group, I would merely take the shift to their
11 posts and come back to the shed.
12 Q. But do you recall, what about sleeping
13 arrangements during the night? Do you recall whether
14 you or Mr. Livancic took any sleep?
15 A. Well, it was the two of us who were on duty
16 in that shed from the beginning of the night to
17 midnight and then from midnight onward. So the two of
18 us took shifts.
19 Q. If you were on such duty and you were taking
20 shifts, where would the person who was going to sleep,
21 where would they sleep?
22 A. In the shed.
23 Q. At what time did your shift end on the
24 morning of the 16th?
25 A. At 6.00 in the morning.
1Q. At that time, do you recall where both you
2 and Mr. Livancic were at 06.00 that morning?
3 A. I was on duty, and Livancic was asleep.
4 Q. By "on duty," do you recall where you were?
5 Did you go out to inspect the men, or were you in the
7 A. During that shift, from midnight to dawn, or
8 rather until daybreak, I would go once, but it was 300
9 metres. It's very close.
10 Q. How long would you spend out at the trenches
11 with the men?
12 A. As a rule, the commander or his deputy going
13 to inspect the guards, he would stay there 15 or 20
14 minutes, perhaps, to see if there is anything new, if
15 they need anything, and then goes back to the shed.
16 Because until that time there were no problems at all,
17 and there was no need for us who headed those shifts to
18 be with men in the trenches.
19 Q. A little earlier, sir, you did say that there
20 were periods of time when indeed --
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, Mr. Blaxill, I
22 understand there is no translation into French.
23 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. Terrier says he has no
24 problem, so I'm just wondering if it's individual
1(Trial Chamber confers)
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, could you follow
3 it in French, and could you also hear the witness
4 speaking French, I mean, because it seems that the
5 court reporter cannot follow.
6 All right. I understand we may continue
8 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Could you tell me, please, sir, when did you
10 start performing your duties in Kuber? When was the
11 first time that you were sent up to those lines?
12 A. I cannot remember the date, but we began to
13 go out to Kuber, well, a long time before the outbreak
14 of the conflict, because we were guarding this plateau,
15 this highland which could have been a very good place
16 for the Serb assault or things of that kind. But I
17 can't remember the date.
18 Q. Can you give me just a rough indication? Was
19 it in 1992, was it in 1993, was it in the summer, the
21 A. Well, yes, in 1992 it was, but I cannot be
22 more accurate as to the date.
23 Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. -- well, you are
24 acquainted, I believe, with Mr. Drago Josipovic. Is
25 that correct?
2 Q. Are you aware as to whether he was ever
3 called to perform such duties up on Kuber prior to
4 April 1993?
5 A. No, he didn't, as far as I know, but --
6 Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. Zoran Kupreskic
7 or Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you aware as to whether either of them
10 were ever called upon to do this kind of reservist duty
11 on Kuber prior to April 1993?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. Dragan Papic?
14 A. I am.
15 Q. Are you aware as to whether he ever performed
16 such duties prior to April 1993?
17 A. No.
18 Q. How long, sir, did it take to go from Kuber
19 down to your home village of Santici on foot?
20 A. An hour and 40 minutes or thereabouts.
21 Q. You referred to Mr. Nenad Santic as somebody
22 dealing with coordination of certain activities. Would
23 it be true to say that Mr. Nenad Santic was a form of
24 local HVO commander in the Santici region? Would that
25 be a fair description?
1A. Nenad Santic cooperated with the municipal
2 government and with the national defence office, so he
3 was a kind of associate. He cooperated.
4 Q. Did your unit ever have direct contacts with
5 Mr. Santic?
6 A. I don't understand your question, really. As
7 far as I do understand you, Mr. Nenad Santic
8 transmitted -- he was the one who conveyed the orders
9 or agreements regarding the guard duty, going to Kuber,
10 and things of that kind.
11 Q. But how would that actually be communicated?
12 Would somebody meet with Mr. Santic down in the
13 village? Would he come up to Kuber? How would that
14 communication take place?
15 A. Well, it was usually couriers who did that.
16 They would bring summons, instructions, and things of
17 that sort.
18 Q. Did you have any kind of radio communications
19 with you on Kuber, as a unit?
20 A. Later on, sometime -- right before the
21 conflict, we had a radio station which was out of work
22 so we could not use it, but we had nothing in the
23 beginning and it simply did not work properly.
24 Q. Well, in about April of 1993, did you have
25 any kind of walkie-talkie radios or Motorolas or
1anything to assist your communications?
2 A. Well, I told you already, at that time
3 precisely we did have a kind of a station, but it
4 wasn't really in good working order and we had no
6 Q. Did you ever have radio communications with
7 anyone in Ahmici?
8 A. No, no.
9 Q. Are you aware of any radio installations in
10 Ahmici at that time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Just one final question, sir.
13 During the nights when you were on duty with
14 Mr. Livancic, what kind of break period would you take
15 to have a sleep? I think you may have already said it
16 was a couple of hours at a time, but perhaps you would
17 confirm. How long did you arrange for each of you to
19 A. Yes, I can do that. Since he was the
20 commander, he would always be on duty, say, from 6.00
21 until 12.00, that is, from 6.00 in the afternoon until
22 12.00 at night. Then I would take over at midnight, at
23 12.00, and stay on until day break, and he would
25 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you.
1That concludes my questioning. Thank you
2 very much, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.
4 Counsel Susak?
5 MR. SUSAK: I have no more questions for the
6 witness, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
8 Thank you, we have no questions.
9 Mr. Pranjkovic, thank you for testifying.
10 You may now be released. Thank you.
11 (The witness withdrew)
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, is your next
13 witness Mr. Vidovic, Josip Vidovic?
14 MR. SUSAK: It should be Dragan Calic now.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
16 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, just an
17 observation and a question.
18 We should like, as far as possible, to know
19 the order in which the witnesses appear, because we
20 received a note from Mr. Susak regarding the order of
21 appearance but that order has not been respected, and
22 it is very useful for us, in order to prepare, to be
23 familiar with that order of appearance of witnesses.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I think, Counsel Susak,
25 I think the Prosecutor is right. We too have the same
1list, and that's why I mentioned Mr. Vidovic, because
2 he was the next one on the list.
3 Counsel Susak, could you be so kind as to
4 tell us right away the list of your witnesses in the
5 order in which you will call them today and tomorrow?
6 (The witness entered court)
7 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I had planned to
8 hear for today Katica Kovac and Ivo Pranjkovic. I
9 didn't know we would finish with these two witnesses so
10 quickly, and I think that the Witness and Victims Unit
11 have caused some confusion. We will hear Dragan Calic,
12 after that Josip Vidovic, and after that Josip Covic,
13 and then for Friday we have Finka Bralo and Anto
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Are all these witnesses here,
16 all the five remaining?
17 MR. SUSAK: Yes, they are all here. They are
18 here in The Hague, but this is the last witness I have
19 here in the courtroom. For tomorrow, I have Josip
20 Vidovic and Josip Covic. Of course --
21 (Trial Chamber confers)
22 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I see now that
23 you're following this on your list, but we give a list
24 24 hours in advance and we have provided a list for
25 today, and I should now like to inform you that Josip
1Vidovic and Josip Covic will be examined tomorrow, for
2 the benefit of Your Honours and the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: But could you bring tomorrow
4 three witnesses, just in case?
5 MR. SUSAK: Yes, I thought of doing that. I
6 always do prepare three witnesses, just in case, and I
7 think Finka Bralo will be here tomorrow, and I would
8 like to have her examined as well tomorrow, if
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right.
11 Good morning, Mr. Calic.
12 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Will you please make the
14 solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak.
22 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 WITNESS: DRAGAN CALIC
24 Examined by Mr. Susak:
25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Calic.
1A. Good morning.
2 Q. Will you please tell the Court your full
3 name, date of birth, your occupation, and who you're
4 living with?
5 A. Do I need to stand up?
6 Q. No. You may remain seated.
7 A. My name is Dragan Calic. I'm the father of
8 two children. I have a wife. I'm currently working in
9 an enterprise called Trgovina.
10 Q. Where do you come from?
11 A. From Vitez.
12 Q. Did you give us your date of birth?
13 A. The 14th of June, 1955.
14 Q. Thank you. We will start with very specific
15 questions from the outset.
16 Are you familiar with the term "Vjetrenice",
17 "D.D. Vjetrenice, Vitez"?
18 A. That used to be my own company that I worked
20 Q. Just slow down a little bit, please. Just
21 make a pause now and then.
22 Did Vjetrenice have a warehouse in Santici?
23 A. Yes, it did.
24 Q. What was the name of that warehouse?
25 A. It was known as warehouse number 3 as part of
2 Q. What were you doing there?
3 A. I was the supervisor of that warehouse, the
4 foreman, warehouse number 3.
5 Q. When was that warehouse built?
6 A. In 1990, '91.
7 Q. So in 1990 and 1991?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you then the foreman?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Until when?
12 A. The warehouse was moved from Poculica to
13 Santici, and it was newly built in 1990, 1991.
14 Q. You said that you were the foreman there.
15 Who was employed there?
16 A. I had two assistant workers and two guards, a
17 total of five.
18 Q. What was the ethnic composition?
19 A. All three ethnic groups were represented.
20 Q. So Croats?
21 A. Yes. Croats, Serbs and Muslims.
22 Q. Will you tell us whether that warehouse has a
23 yard and whether it is fenced in?
24 A. Every warehouse has to have a fence, and this
25 one had one too.
1Q. Is this warehouse next to the road, on the
3 A. It is on the main road linking Vitez to
5 MR. SUSAK: I see, the Vitez-Busovaca road.
6 With the help of the usher, I should like to show the
7 witness a sketch before proceeding to other questions.
8 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit will be marked
10 MR. SUSAK: Maybe you made a mistake. 26/4?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, D26/4.
12 MR. SUSAK:
13 Q. Mr. Calic, you have the sketch in front of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Will you look at it, please? Look at it
17 under the ELMO, please. Will you take a pen, and move
18 the microphone closer.
19 A. Is that all right now?
20 Q. Yes. Will you show us the road and mark the
21 road with the letter "A"?
22 A. (Witness complies)
23 Q. How many entrance gates are there to this
25 A. There are two gates.
1Q. Will you describe where they are?
2 A. Gate number 1 is the main entrance
4 Q. You call it the main entrance, so give it the
5 number 1.
6 A. (Witness complies)
7 Q. And the second one?
8 A. The auxiliary entrance number 2 on the side
9 entrance (indicating).
10 Q. Did those gates exist in 1993?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Will you tell us the role of gate number 1
13 and, separately, of gate number 2?
14 A. Gate number 1 was used for the entry of goods
15 into the warehouse. It had a small gate that was
16 always open and it was never locked. Gate number 1 was
17 used for the entrance of transport vehicles, and it had
18 an additional small gate which was never locked, and it
19 was used by us, the personnel, and also by the
20 consumers, by the customers.
21 Gate number 2, when a truck enters, it had to
22 go out through that gate because the area was not large
23 and the driver could not turn around, so he would go
24 out through gate number 2.
25 Q. Would you draw a line from gate number 1 to
1number 2, the route taken by trucks? Will you please
2 draw a line showing the route taken by trucks? Just
3 draw a line.
4 A. (Witness complies)
5 Q. Fine, thank you.
6 That's all regarding this sketch.
7 MR. SUSAK: The Prosecutor, on the 11th of
8 February, during the hearing here, 11th of February,
9 1999, in my opinion made the wrong conclusion, that
10 there was only one gate. It can be found on the
11 transcript, 6.846, during the testimony of witness
12 Zoran Strukar.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you asking a question?
14 Because you are now making a conclusion.
15 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, this is just by
16 way of an introduction. You were not a member of the
17 Trial Chamber at the time. Judge May was the president
18 of the Trial Chamber. The Judge cautioned me at the
19 time that I should tender certain documents through
20 another witness. That advice was welcome, and that
21 witness is this foreman. So I'm saying this by way of
22 introduction. This is of no significance for the
23 Prosecution or for the Defence, because these are
24 photographs taken on the 16th of April, 1993,
25 photographs taken by UNPROFOR.
1For this reason, I should like to ask the
2 usher to show these photographs to the witness. This
3 was Prosecution Exhibit P245.
4 Q. There are some marks on these photographs,
5 something has been written over them, but that is no
6 obstacle for you to show us what is to the right of
7 this tank and whether there is an entrance gate to the
8 Ogrjev warehouse. This photograph was taken on the
9 16th of April, 1993.
10 A. I didn't understand your question.
11 Q. This is a photograph from '93. Do you
12 recognise the entrance gate to the Ogrjev warehouse?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Will you describe it and mark it?
15 A. It's not a very good photograph. It's better
16 on the monitor than on the ELMO.
17 Q. Well, then, look at it on the monitor and
18 tell us about it.
19 A. Do I need to mark it?
20 Q. Yes, do. Mark it with the number "2."
21 A. (Witness complies)
22 Q. Will you put a circle around that gate.
23 A. (Witness complies)
24 Q. Very well. Will you tell us, what is there
25 that is whitish? Why is this white path, and when you
1take a photograph today, there's no path?
2 A. Every gate has to have an access path, and if
3 you can't see it nowadays, it's probably covered over
4 with grass because it's not being used.
5 Q. I see. So it's not being used. Tell us
6 which gate this is. You showed us two on the sketch a
7 moment ago.
8 A. This is the side entrance.
9 Q. Is it the gate leading from the asphalt road
10 to the yard?
11 A. Yes, but it wasn't always used. We called it
12 an auxiliary gate, a side gate.
13 MR. SUSAK: Could we ask the usher now to
14 show the witness another aerial photograph, also taken
15 in 1993. This was Prosecution Exhibit 247.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Will this exhibit be marked
17 on by the witness?
18 MR. SUSAK: Yes. So will you mark it as
19 D27/4, please.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: This one?
21 THE REGISTRAR: The first photograph is
22 marked D27/4, and the new one will be marked D28/4.
23 MR. SUSAK: Yes, fine.
24 Q. Mr. Calic, is that the same gate that we saw
25 a moment ago?
2 Q. Which gate is this?
3 A. This is gate number 1.
4 Q. Will you mark it with number "1," please.
5 A. (Witness complies)
6 Q. Will you explain to Their Honours how one
7 enters the warehouse through this gate? Do you enter
8 it from the asphalt road?
9 A. Yes. Then there is a small 30-metre long
10 path, and then you enter the yard.
11 Q. How far is the gate from the asphalt part of
12 the road?
13 A. Thirty metres.
14 Q. Will you draw a line from the asphalt to the
15 gate and put a circle around it.
16 A. (Witness complies)
17 Q. You see those small pillars there, the
18 smaller and thicker ones?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are the thicker ones along the road?
21 A. I don't understand.
22 Q. Mr. Calic, you see those concrete poles along
23 the roadside?
24 A. Here, you mean (indicating)?
25 Q. Are those pillars used for the iron gate,
1entrance gate? You said you entered through the other
3 A. Yes, on this side, they were used for the
5 Q. And those over there for another purpose? So
6 in order to enter the Ogrjev warehouse, you can't do it
7 straight from the road, but you have to take a 30-metre
8 long dirt road? Very well.
9 On this photograph, will you mark with an
10 arrow the direction from the entrance gate to the guard
11 post? Just a line with an arrow, please.
12 A. (Witness complies)
13 Q. Fine. Thank you. So that's the path you
14 would take. And if you entered through the other gate,
15 what would it look like?
16 A. You mean from the other gate?
17 Q. Yes. Will you draw a line from the other
19 A. (Witness complies)
20 MR. SUSAK: Very well. We're done with
21 that. We have taken photographs of those same gates on
22 the 19th of April this year, so I would like the usher
23 for his assistance to show these photographs to the
24 witness so that we can compare them with the
25 photographs from 1993.
1Q. Mr. Calic, this is Exhibit D29/4. Will you
2 please look at these photographs and tell us,
3 photograph number 1, what gate does it show?
4 A. Gate Number 2.
5 Q. Will you mark it with the number "2," and
6 draw an arrow from that gate in the direction of the
7 guard house, which can't really be seen here; just an
8 arrow, please.
9 A. (Witness complies)
10 Q. Fine. Now go on to photograph number 3 and
11 see whether it also shows gate number 2.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Will you put a circle around it, please.
14 A. (Witness complies)
15 Q. Will you put a cross on the actual gate as it
16 opens, the entrance gate.
17 A. You mean the entrance gate next to the road?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. (Witness complies)
20 Q. What is this wooden hut?
21 A. It's a toilet.
22 Q. Did it exist in '93?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you see it on the previous photograph?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. Now, tell me what photograph number 2 shows.
2 Is the entrance gate shown here too?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Will you mark it, please, with an "X."
5 A. (Witness complies)
6 Q. Is that gate number 1, or number 2?
7 A. Number 2, next to the asphalt road.
8 Q. Now, in front of that gate, the path no
9 longer exists. Where did that path go before?
10 A. It went inside the yard.
11 Q. But before the fence was built, the path was
12 maybe used by the local people?
13 A. I really don't know.
14 Q. Now mark with a "Y" the place where the
15 toilet is. That is next to gate number 1, you said?
16 A. No, gate number 2.
17 Q. Yes, yes, of course, gate number 2.
18 Mr. Calic, we've finished with those
19 photographs. I have some more questions for you. You
20 said that you were the foreman?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you have any guards there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What was the role of the guards, and what was
25 your role there?
1A. Every warehouse had a foreman, and that was
2 what I was. I had two assistant workers and two
4 Q. When did the guards start performing their
6 A. From 4.00 p.m. until 8.00 a.m. the next day,
7 until 0800 hours the next day.
8 Q. And when did you come to work in the morning?
9 A. If I didn't come at 8.00, then my assistant
10 would come. Anyway, someone had to be there at 8.00.
11 Q. Could a guard leave the warehouse before you
12 came to work?
13 A. According to all the rules of the company, he
14 should not.
15 Q. So was what his duty?
16 A. His duty was to wait until the assistant or
17 the foreman arrived.
18 Q. And then he would leave?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did they perform their duties? Were they
21 two per shift?
22 A. No, they were one per shift. They would be
23 working one night and resting the next night. So they
24 took turns.
25 Q. Gate number 1 that was next to the asphalt
1road, was it ever locked?
2 A. The big one, yes, and the small one, no.
3 Q. So you misunderstood me. We are talking
4 about two entrances to the warehouse. I'm talking
5 about gate number 1, next to the asphalt road. Was it
6 locked, or not?
7 A. I didn't understand you. You mean the big
8 gate? There's a big gate and a smaller gate next to
10 Q. I asked you before to explain whether there
11 were two gates to enter the warehouse.
12 A. Yes, two big ones. But this -- one of the
13 big ones had an additional gate.
14 Q. I'm talking about the two big ones. We're
15 talking about the gate next to the asphalt road,
16 number 1. Was it locked or not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Why?
19 A. For security's sake, so that cars couldn't
21 Q. Where was the key kept?
22 A. In the desk.
23 Q. When was it unlocked?
24 A. In the morning, when you come to work at
1Q. Did this gate have an auxiliary entrance?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I'm talking about the same gate, next to the
4 asphalt road. How many doors did it have? I'm not
5 talking about the big gate; I'm talking about gate
6 number 1, next to the asphalt road. I'm talking about
7 the gate next to the asphalt road, where the trucks
8 entered, next to the toilet.
9 A. It was locked non-stop. It was locked all
10 the time. I was talking about the other gate, the
11 number 1 entrance gate.
12 Q. You mean gate number 2? Sorry, in that case
13 it's my mistake. So gate number 2 was always locked,
14 and when would be it unlocked?
15 A. Only when goods were being unloaded.
16 Q. Where was the key kept to that gate?
17 A. In the desk.
18 Q. Now we're going on to the other gate. How
19 would you enter through that other gate?
20 A. You would enter by a kind of side door.
21 Q. So that gate had an auxiliary entrance?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many doors did that gate have?
24 A. It had an auxiliary entrance plus two wings
25 of the big gate. The big one was locked and the small
1auxiliary one was not.
2 Q. Very well.
3 MR. SUSAK: For clarity's sake, I should like
4 to show another photograph with the help of the usher,
5 and then we are through with this question.
6 Q. Mr. Calic, this photograph shows gates
7 number 1 and 2. Will you please tell us which gate is
8 which? Are they the same gates we saw on the '93
9 photograph, which gate is being shown on the screen
11 A. We call it gate number 1.
12 Q. With the auxiliary door. How do you enter
13 this gate? Will you show us with an arrow?
14 A. (Witness complies)
15 Q. And on the second photograph, and here, how
16 do you enter? Do you enter it straight from the
17 asphalt road?
18 A. It's about three metres away from the road.
19 Q. So will you mark the entrance through the
20 second gate.
21 A. (Witness complies)
22 Q. Fine. Where is the toilet, please?
23 A. Shall I mark it?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. How shall I mark it?
2 A. (Witness complies)
3 Q. So we are through with that now. Thank you.
4 You said that this main gate that we marked
5 with a number "1" was locked, but the small side door
6 to it was not locked. Why was that side door not
8 A. For the need of communication. People kept
9 coming and going. For a time there was no water
10 inside, so you had to go out.
11 Q. And during the night?
12 A. It wasn't locked during the night either.
13 Q. Why not, if there were guards there?
14 A. We simply didn't do it.
15 Q. The keys were always in the drawer of the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When talking about the guards' hut, was it
19 locked, and do you know the layout of that small hut?
20 Could you describe it to us?
21 A. The guards' hut consisted of two parts. The
22 first part was a kind of living room, and the second
23 part was a kind of office for me. The living room had
24 an entrance door with a glass pane and one window, and
25 my office also had a glass door and a window. Again,
1neither of these doors were locked.
2 Q. Were the windows locked from the inside, or
3 from the outside?
4 A. From the inside, of course.
5 Q. Was there glass in the windows and the doors?
6 A. Yes, they were paned with glass.
7 Q. If a person were to be locked in that room,
8 could he leave the hut?
9 A. Why not?
10 Q. Mr. Calic, give us a whole sentence.
11 A. Whoever were to be locked inside could leave
13 Q. Why?
14 A. Because it was easy to open the door from the
16 Q. How high were the windows from the floor?
17 A. 1,20 to 1,50 metres.
18 Q. You mentioned two rooms in that guards' hut.
19 Was there a door between the two rooms?
20 A. Of course. There was a connecting door
21 between the two premises.
22 Q. So they were never locked?
23 A. No, never.
24 Q. You mentioned the windows on that hut. How
25 many windows were there?
1A. There were three windows to both rooms.
2 Q. One faced where?
3 A. One faced westwards, the other one eastwards,
4 and the third one southwards.
5 Q. Will you tell us, who were the guards in the
7 A. The guards were Borko Mijatovic and Aladin
9 Q. How old was Aladin Karahodza, roughly, and
10 what did he look like? What was his appearance?
11 A. I think he was between 27 and 30, something
12 like that. Physically, he was rather skinny.
13 Q. Was he healthy?
14 A. Probably, yes.
15 Q. Very well. Was he in the guards' hut on the
16 15th, 16th, and 17th and on; do you know?
17 A. Well, he took over the shift, and probably he
19 Q. Was it his turn to be there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. We are now talking about the 15th, so was he
22 on duty on the 15th of April, 1993?
23 A. He arrived before 16.00 hours and took over
24 his duty.
25 Q. Up to what time was he to be there?
1A. Until 8.00 a.m. on the 16th.
2 Q. Who was to come to work on the 16th of April,
3 1993, you as the foreman or someone else, for that
4 guard to be able to go home?
5 A. Well, it was an unwritten rule, whoever
7 Q. So he had to wait until 8.00 a.m. the
8 following morning?
9 A. Yes. He could go regardless of who arrived,
10 whether it was the assistant or the foreman.
11 Q. Did you come to work on that day?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you supposed to come to work?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you please give us a complete sentence?
16 A. I was supposed to come, yes.
17 Q. Why didn't you come to work on the 16th of
19 A. On the 16th of April, I didn't come to work
20 because of the gunfire, and also I have a stomach ulcer
21 and I wasn't feeling well.
22 Q. According to the rules, was the guard allowed
23 to leave his post before the foreman arrived at work?
24 A. The guard, according to the written rules of
25 the company, was not supposed to leave his post.
1Q. Since the yard is fenced in, could you tell
2 us what the fence looks like?
3 A. The yard is fenced in with concrete posts and
4 a wire fence.
5 Q. This guard, since he was thin, could he have
6 climbed over the fence even if he had been locked in?
7 A. Considering the strength of the fence itself,
8 a man like Aladin could have got over the fence. He
9 could have climbed over the wire, and I think that an
10 even heavier man could have done it.
11 Q. How tall is that fence?
12 A. The wire fence is 2,20 metres high.
13 Q. Is there a gap between the ground and the
14 fence or does the fence go right down to the ground?
15 A. Between the ground and the fence, there is no
16 gap, because when we put the fence there, then we put
17 sand under it. We filled the gap with sand.
18 MR. SUSAK: I would now like to ask the usher
19 to take this set of photographs, because it will help
20 us to get through the next evidence more quickly.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The last photograph is marked
22 D30/4. This is D31/4.
23 MR. SUSAK:
24 Q. Mr. Calic, you have before you a set of
25 photographs. Would you please look at photograph
1number 1 and circle the small gate, gate number 1?
2 A. (Witness complies)
3 Q. What is the small door? Could you circle the
4 small door on that gate?
5 A. Photograph number 1?
6 Q. Yes. Photograph number 1, does it show the
7 gate number 1 which we marked on the UNPROFOR
8 photograph which we looked at before?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you see what you called the small door
11 which was never locked on that gate?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you circle it?
14 A. (Witness complies)
15 Q. So this is it. The other entrance door
16 consists of what, where a truck would pass through?
17 A. The auxiliary door?
18 Q. Yes. Well, the auxiliary door is where you
19 put a circle, and this was for people to go in. Where
20 would a truck go in?
21 A. I don't understand.
22 Q. This is the gate in front of you, so you have
23 put a circle on the small door. Could you now please
24 indicate what else the gate consists of?
25 A. Two big doors.
1Q. Could you mark these two big doors with "X"
2 and "Y", please?
3 A. (Witness complies)
4 Q. Now you will look at photograph number 4.
5 Can you see it?
6 A. Photograph number 4, yes.
7 Q. You have problems with your eyesight, don't
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Well, you have a photograph in front of you.
11 Could you please look at photograph number 4? Do you
12 see the hut there?
13 A. Yes, I see a part of it.
14 Q. Do you see the window?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that window glazed and is it on the ground
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you please put an "X" on that window?
20 A. (Witness complies)
21 Q. Now could you look at photograph number 5?
22 What window is it? Is that the hut where this man is?
23 A. Yes, and this is the west window
25 Q. Where does it face?
1A. To the west.
2 Q. Whose houses are west of that window? Are
3 they Muslim houses or Croatian houses?
4 A. Well, the first house is a Muslim house.
5 Q. Very well. We have finished with this part.
6 Now would you please look at photograph
7 number 6? Is that the guards' hut that we can see on
8 this photograph?
9 A. We can see only a corner of the guards' hut.
10 Q. But we can see the window? Can we see the
12 A. No.
13 Q. How is it that I can see it?
14 A. I can see it on photograph number 7.
15 Q. I was asking you about photograph number 7.
16 A. Yes, I can see the window on photograph
17 number 7.
18 Q. Would you please mark it?
19 A. (Witness complies)
20 Q. Now we will look at the next page, photograph
21 number 11. Is this the entrance door leading to the
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you mark it with an "X"?
25 A. (Witness complies)
1Q. What is there to the right of the door?
2 A. This is the eastern window.
3 Q. Could you mark it with "Y"?
4 A. (Witness complies)
5 Q. Now would you look at photograph number 13?
6 What does it represent?
7 A. A window.
8 Q. Can we see how this window can be opened and
10 A. From the inside of the office.
11 Q. From the inside, can you see the knob or the
12 handle by which the window is opened?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We have now completed this part of the
16 Mr. Calic, you said that you were ill?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you go to the doctor then?
19 A. I went to the doctor in Busovaca.
20 Q. On that day or later?
21 A. On that day, the 16th.
22 Q. When did you come back to the warehouse
24 A. On the 18th of April.
25 Q. On the 18th of April. What condition did you
1find the hut in where your office is?
2 A. I found the hut in a completely normal state,
3 just as we had left it when we were leaving it.
4 Q. Could you speak closer to the microphone?
5 A. On the 18th, I found the hut in the same
6 condition as it was when I left it, so there were no
8 Q. Did you see any shattered windows or doors?
9 A. No, nothing was shattered.
10 Q. Was the door locked?
11 A. No, the door wasn't locked.
12 Q. Very well. Was there a telephone in the
13 guards' hut or in your office?
14 A. Yes, there was a telephone in the office.
15 Q. Did you find it there?
16 A. Yes, I found it there when I came back.
17 Q. Was it in working order or not?
18 A. Yes, it was in working order, but there was
19 no signal.
20 Q. So it wasn't broken?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you find anything else in the hut?
23 A. In the office in the hut, I found, because
24 every guard had a pistol with two rounds of ammunition
25 belonging to the company, I found this in good order,
1and I also found the book where records were kept of
2 the weapons of the guards and observations made by the
4 Q. Was anything noted down by the guard in that
6 A. No, nothing. There was no change.
7 Q. So what did you find on the desk?
8 A. Well, in the drawer I found a pistol and two
9 rounds of ammunition.
10 Q. Was Aladin Karahodza issued with that pistol
11 and ammunition?
12 A. Yes, he had been issued with it.
13 MR. SUSAK: Your Honours, I would now like to
14 show a video. If there is not to be a break, I would
15 like to finish with this witness today, Mr. President,
16 if it is possible. I think I will be able to do so.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Susak, but we
18 need a break, a 15-minute break, because of the
20 Do you want now to have a break and then we
21 resume in 15 minutes, or do you want to show, first of
22 all, this videotape?
23 MR. SUSAK: Well, maybe we could see the
24 videotape before the break, because that will leave
25 less for after the break.
1JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
2 MR. SUSAK: It is Exhibit D12/4. D12/4.
3 (Videotape played)
4 MR. SUSAK:
5 Q. Then you will tell us whether this is the
7 A. This is gate number 1.
8 Q. Number 1, which doesn't give onto the asphalt
9 road right away?
10 A. Yes, it's about 30 metres away from the
11 asphalt road.
12 Q. So this is the wire fence. Is the wire
13 strong enough for someone to climb over it?
14 A. Yes. It's like a kind of ladder, so you can
15 climb it like a ladder.
16 Q. Is this the guards' hut?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Has anything been added to it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you see the changes now on this video?
21 A. No, not now.
22 Q. Can you describe what has been added on to
24 A. Well, I can't see it. You have to go
1Q. Well, the video is going its own way. So
2 this is the gate; right?
3 A. Yes. So first you have to leave the asphalt
4 road, and then you come to the gate.
5 Q. This is the small door?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Whose houses are these?
8 A. This house which is destroyed is a Muslim
9 house. I don't know about the others because I am not
10 a native of Santici. I don't live there.
11 Q. So we can see that you can't go straight from
12 the road through the gate, and this is the guards'
13 hut. This is how you enter from the outside?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This is the small door?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. These are the windows on the guards' hut.
18 Can you see them?
19 A. Yes, I can see the western and the southern
21 Q. This is the west window?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. This is the door?
24 A. Yes, the auxiliary gate.
25 MR. SUSAK: So this is the door which opens
1and closes and is never locked.
2 Could you speed up this video, please? I
3 don't think we need to linger.
4 Q. Can you see, this fence goes right down to
5 the ground, doesn't it?
6 A. Yes, it does.
7 MR. SUSAK: This is where I would like the
8 video to be stopped for a minute, where we can see the
9 man climbing over the fence. Could you go back a
10 little, please?
11 Would you stop now, and can we look at it at
12 normal speed now?
13 Q. So is it possible to climb over this fence?
14 A. Yes, yes. It's eight times six.
15 Q. This man is a little heavier than Aladin
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And it would be easier if he stayed closer to
19 the concrete post?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. To the east of this house are Muslim houses,
22 so Karahodza could always have jumped out through the
23 window and climbed over the fence.
24 You can speed it up now, please. Now could
25 you stop, please?
1And this is still the gate, gate number 1?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. This is the traffic going along the road?
4 A. Yes, along the Vitez-Busovaca road.
5 Q. You say these houses are Muslim houses?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you describe this hut? Do you know
8 whether anything has been added to it and how?
9 A. Yes. After the cease-fire, it was extended.
10 Can you see the change?
11 Q. Yes, yes. It's here; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. To the right of the door?
14 A. Yes. When I look at it, it's on my right.
15 Q. But the door was always there, and so was
16 this window; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Why, as other witnesses have said, did not
19 Aladin Karahodza leave the company throughout the day
20 on the 16th, in your opinion?
21 A. Well, on that day, in my personal opinion, I
22 think there was a lot of gunfire on that day and that's
23 why he couldn't leave.
24 Q. So he couldn't leave because of the gunfire.
25 If he had wanted to, could he have gone out through the
1door of the guards' hut and out through the main gate?
2 A. Yes, he could have, because neither the gate
3 nor the door of the office was locked.
4 Q. Could he have opened the window in the
5 guards' hut which are closed from the inside?
6 A. Since he was most probably inside, of course,
7 he could have opened the windows because the handles
8 are on the inside.
9 Q. Do you know that the most intense fighting on
10 the 16th of April, 1993, was along the road where the
11 warehouse is?
12 A. Yes. I didn't hear you. I didn't understand
13 your question.
14 Q. I said was the most intense fighting along
15 the road where the warehouse is located? I'm referring
16 to the 16th of April, 1993.
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Were some Muslims killed to the left and to
19 the right of Ogrjev, whose houses are located in the
20 vicinity of Ogrjev?
21 A. When I arrived there the next day, I heard
22 something about it.
23 Q. So I'm asking you what you heard. You heard
24 that there had been gunfire all day; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. This is the window opening which opens from
2 the inside?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What is this?
5 A. This is an electric heater.
6 Q. Did you ever lock your room in that guards'
8 A. No.
9 Q. Why?
10 A. Oh, it wasn't usual, it wasn't our habit,
11 because there was a safe where I kept my documents to
12 which I alone had the key.
13 MR. SUSAK: This is the iron fence.
14 I think that this is enough, Mr. President.
15 I would now like to stop.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We'll take a
17 15-minute break.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?
21 MR. SUSAK:
22 Q. Mr. Calic, so you worked in that compound.
23 Will you please explain if the small door on that gate
24 marked "1" was locked or not?
25 A. The small door at gate number 1 was never
2 Q. Was there a key to that door?
3 A. There was a key to the door.
4 Q. And where was it?
5 A. It was with other keys in the desk in the
7 Q. After April 16th, you came to the guards'
8 hut, did you find the keys there?
9 A. I found the keys in the desk.
10 Q. Did you find the keys to all doors?
11 A. They were all on one, what should I call it,
12 they were all together.
13 Q. So they were all hanging on one and the same
14 ring. How do you explain, then, that some witnesses
15 saw Aladin Karahodza run across the yard on the 16th of
16 April, '93, in the afternoon, across the yard to gate
17 number 2, towards the asphalt road where the UNPROFOR
18 tank was? How do you explain that he ran in that
19 direction rather than to the main gate, which is gate
20 number 1?
21 A. I think --
22 MR. BLAXILL: Pardon me if I interrupt, but I
23 just doubt the validity of the question. The witness
24 has already clearly stated he was nowhere near the
25 building on the 16th of April, so he is being asked
1essentially not even to comment on what may have been
2 said to him but to speculate why a man ran in one
3 direction and not another, and he cannot speak to that,
4 I'm sure.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I think it's a good
7 Counsel Susak, can you move on to another
9 MR. SUSAK: I do not agree with this
10 objection, but then I will move on to another
11 question. Mr. Calic knows the area, the houses, and
12 the deployment of Muslims who were armed, and Croats as
13 well. So that is perhaps why Aladin Karahodza chose
14 the road to gate number 2 rather than gate number 1.
15 However, I will leave that question aside and ask
16 another question.
17 Q. If you go from the guard hut to gate number 1
18 as against moving from that hut to number 2, is there a
19 better shelter when one moves towards gate number 2
20 than towards gate number 1?
21 A. Since the office had an extension, a roofed
22 part where the goods were unloaded, it was better
23 sheltered from any fire, from any bullets, than gate
24 number 2.
25 Q. Was it a problem for Aladin Karahodza to
1climb over the wire fence at gate 2?
2 A. The wire fence is the same all around. The
3 whole compound was encircled by the same wire fence, so
4 he could have climbed it at any place.
5 Q. Was there some area -- was there some free
6 room between the wire fence and the ground? Could one
7 get under the wire fence?
8 A. There was absolutely no room for a cat to get
9 through, let alone a man.
10 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I should like to
11 round off my questions. On the first videotape there
12 is no gate number 2. I should like to finish my
13 questions with showing briefly tape number 2, and it is
14 about the warehouse of Ogrjev. I'm proposing to do
15 this because it was not clear at the outset whether
16 there were one or two gates to the Ogrjev warehouse.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: But is it necessary? I mean,
18 is it disputed that there were two entrances?
19 MR. BLAXILL: No, not at all. And certainly,
20 if we are looking to 1993, the witness has clearly
21 stated there were two sets of large gates which were in
22 use for vehicular access. We are quite happy to agree
23 with that as being as read.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. It is not disputed.
25 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, my learned friend from
1the Prosecution, for accepting this and thus saving
2 time for all of us. I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
4 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, just one more
5 thing. I should like to tender all these documents
6 into evidence.
7 MR. BLAXILL: No objections.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. They are admitted
9 into evidence.
10 Counsel Pavkovic?
11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, other Defence
12 counsel have no questions for this witness.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
14 Mr. Blaxill?
15 MR. BLAXILL: I have a few, Your Honours, and
16 I can assure you, very briefly, very briefly.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
18 Q. Sir, if I can just ask you a number of
19 questions, my name is Michael Blaxill, I'm one of the
20 Prosecutors in this case. I think we have just
21 confirmed that you had two sets of large gates which
22 were used in 1993 for vehicles to gain access and to
23 exit from the Ogrjev premises; that is correct, sir?
24 A. Yes. In 1993, there were two gates.
25 Q. When they were not being used for vehicular
1access, I believe you said that those gates, the big
2 ones were locked, but the small personnel gate was kept
3 open at all times; that is also correct, sir?
4 A. It is. The small gate was always kept open
5 for communication, for getting into and getting out of
6 the warehouse.
7 Q. And as to the wire fence around the premises,
8 has that been changed in any way since 1993? Has the
9 wire been renewed? If it's renewed, is it the same
10 style of wire that there was there in 1993?
11 A. No, it has not been changed at all.
12 Q. Just to confirm, you were at work, were you,
13 on the 15th of April of '93?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You did not go near the Ogrjev premises at
16 all on the 16th of April?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. And the next time you went to work was the
19 17th of April?
20 A. No, the 18th of April.
21 Q. The 18th of April? Thank you, sir.
22 I would like, if I may, you to look at the
23 exhibit we've marked, I think it's 27/4. It's the
24 picture with an UNPROFOR tank on the street. Do you
25 have that one there, sir? I'm going to ask you one
1question. It may be a little unclear on that
2 photograph, though I do have a clearer colour one if we
3 need to refer to it.
4 Sir, if you look at the gate, the entrance
5 gates that are seen on that photograph, to my eye it
6 looks as though there is a bit of a gap between the
7 bottom of the gate and the ground. Is that so? Was
8 there a gap there in 1993, below those gates?
9 A. The gate itself, the gate itself is attached
10 to posts which keep it fixed. Of course there must
11 have been some 5-centimetre gap simply so as to be able
12 to open the gate, because one cannot really have the
13 gate reaching down to the ground.
14 Q. So how deep was that gap, do you think?
15 A. The gate itself, you mean? I believe about
16 five metres.
17 Q. No, sorry, I meant the gap between the bottom
18 of the gate and the ground.
19 A. Five centimetres, at least.
20 Q. One final thing, sir. Just to confirm, I
21 believe you've already stated it, the gate, the small
22 personnel gate that you did not lock was actually
23 capable of being locked; that is correct? And there
24 was a key for it; yes?
25 A. There was.
1MR. BLAXILL: I'd like to confer for just one
2 moment, Your Honours.
3 Q. One final point, if I may. Your guards did
4 have, did they not, a pistol and some ammunition on the
5 premises of the guardhouse?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you returned to work on the 18th of
8 April, did you, in fact, have cause to check whether
9 the gun was still there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was it?
12 A. The gun was there where one always left it.
13 Q. Where was it -- I'm sorry. Did you want to
14 finish something?
15 A. Together with ammunition, two rounds of
17 Q. Where was that, in fact, kept?
18 A. It was kept -- I mean the pistol and
19 ammunition were kept in the desk and the table that we
20 also used for lunch.
21 MR. BLAXILL: That actually concludes my
22 questions. Thank you, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.
24 Counsel Susak?
25 MR. SUSAK: I have no more questions,
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
3 We have no questions, so therefore,
4 Mr. Calic, thank you for giving evidence in court. You
5 may now be released. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 (The witness withdrew)
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, I gather you
9 have no witness available?
10 MR. SUSAK: No, I do not have any more
11 witnesses, because I really could not anticipate when
12 we would be finished with this witness. So we shall
13 continue tomorrow.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will adjourn
15 now until tomorrow at 9.00.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 12.55 p.m., to be reconvened on
18 Thursday, the 24th day of June,
19 1999, at 9.00 a.m.