1Friday, 25th June, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered the court)
4 (The witness entered the court)
5 --- Commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and
9 Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASESSE: Thank you.
11 Good morning. Yes, Counsel Par.
12 MR. PAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 With your leave, before we begin the
14 examination of the witness, I should like to raise one
15 question relating to the procedure; that is, the
16 testimony by the accused, if I may.
17 Vlatko Kupreskic's Defence has announced the
18 testimony given by the accused at the end of the
19 examination. Meanwhile, the Prosecutor's office has
20 also announced the production of additional evidence
21 relative to the defence presented here on behalf of
22 Vlatko Kupreskic. It is the interest of the Defence
23 that when the accused presents, that all evidence
24 brought against him be produced, and my question is
25 does the Trial Chamber allow the accused to testify
1after the Prosecution has produced all the evidence, or
2 does the accused need to give his evidence before that?
3 So that is my question.
4 I might also mention that in the legal system
5 of the accused, this is resolved in the manner that the
6 accused is given the floor last, and he is entitled to
7 testify with regard to all the evidence adduced against
9 So this is my question. I would appreciate
10 very much your instructions in this regard.
11 JUDGE CASESSE: I'll ask Mr. Terrier what he
12 thinks about this matter, and then we will make a
14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I believe that
15 the Rules of Procedure are quite clear on how the
16 hearing goes. First the Prosecutor's evidence, and
17 then the Defence evidence needs to be presented before
18 anything else, and I believe that Mr. Par asking the
19 accused to testify as the last one in this case,
20 whereas the Prosecution still has to submit some of
21 their refutals seems to me contrary to the Rules of
22 Procedure, and I do not think that it should be
23 accepted here at the International Tribunal.
24 The Defence has the last word in all the
25 judicial systems that I know, but not of the accused
1himself, and therefore the Defence here should, through
2 the Defence counsel, have the last word, and they have
3 this right. I believe that the rights of the accused
4 in this manner are fully respected.
5 JUDGE CASESSE: Let me say that on the last
6 point, I think actually even in Nuremberg, the accused
7 had the last word, but to make a statement, not to give
8 evidence. So we have to make a distinction between
9 giving evidence and making a final statement. I think
10 this is what happened in Nuremberg, to the best of my
11 recollection. So the accused gave evidence, and then
12 before the Court decided to make a ruling, to issue a
13 verdict, they were allowed to have a final word.
14 Therefore, this distinction, I think, is important.
15 (Trial Chamber deliberates)
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Our ruling is as follows:
17 According to the Rules of Procedure, of course the
18 accused, if they are called by Defence counsel as
19 witnesses in their own behalf, of course they have to
20 give evidence at the end of the Defence case, so before
21 the Prosecutor starts with the rebuttal, with rebuttal
22 witnesses. So therefore they cannot give evidence at
23 the very end.
24 However, this does not exclude that the
25 Defence counsel can call the accused as witnesses in
1rejoinder after the rebuttal. They can be called again
2 to testify in court, and on top of that, they can also
3 make, if they wish to do so, a final statement, which
4 is, as I say, just a statement on their own position.
5 I hope this position is clear.
6 MR. PAR: Yes, I understand, Your Honours.
7 Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We can now --
9 yes, Counsel Susak?
10 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, yesterday, as I
11 was examining Finka Bralo, I always mentioned the time,
12 and the witness herself spoke of twenty to six, that is
13 5.40. However, I hear from my colleagues that what the
14 transcript says, it is twenty to five, or 4.40. I
15 believe that either the transcript is wrong or perhaps
16 it was my slip of the tongue, and will you please bear
17 this in mind, because we have spoken of 5.40, of twenty
18 to six.
19 JUDGE MAY: It was your slip of the tongue at
20 the end of the evidence which created that confusion.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: We will make the record
23 MR. SUSAK: Thank you very much. Thank you.
24 Mr. President, one more thing: Will the
25 registry please tell me, Exhibit D35/4, has this been
1admitted into evidence, and is it properly filed?
2 JUDGE CASSESE: No, actually I was about to
3 raise this matter. I think you forgot yesterday,
4 because you were tired, and we were all a bit tired, to
5 propose that it should be admitted into evidence, but I
6 was about to ask the Prosecution whether they had any
7 objection. I hope not.
8 No. So it is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. SUSAK: Thank you very much.
10 THE REGISTRAR: This is not 35/4 but -- it's
11 not 35/4 but 34/4.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you.
13 This one, Counsel Susak, this one? Yes.
14 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, it is the aerial
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. We can now
17 start with our last witness, Mr. Bralo.
18 Good morning. Could you please stand and
19 make the solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours. I
21 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole
22 truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
24 A. Thank you.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?
1MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 WITNESS: ANTO BRALO
3 Examined by Mr. Susak:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bralo.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Will you please tell the Court your full
7 name, where you were born, and where do you live?
8 A. Anto Bralo, the village of Santici, Vitez. I
9 was born on the 20th of February, 1950.
10 Q. Whom do you live with in Santici?
11 A. I live with my wife, Finka Bralo, and my two
13 Q. Will you tell us, please, what did you do in
14 1993, sometime in the beginning of that year? That is,
15 what was your occupation, or where did you work?
16 A. I'm a worker, and I worked for the British
17 UNPROFOR as a stoker at the beginning of the year.
18 Q. So you told us you worked at the UNPROFOR and
19 employed by the British Battalion?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Your wife, was she employed by the British
22 UNPROFOR at the same time?
23 A. Yes, she also worked for the UNPROFOR in
25 Q. Since when had you been working for UNPROFOR?
1A. It was from the beginning of the season, so
2 it must have been October, I believe, and I was to work
3 for them until the end of the season; that is, until
4 the 25th of April.
5 Q. Will you give us the dates, please?
6 A. From the 1st of October --
7 Q. Yes, but which year?
8 A. '93.
9 Q. No, not'93; '92, wasn't it?
10 A. Yes, '92.
11 Q. So between the 1st of October, 1992, if I
12 understand you properly, until?
13 A. Until the 15th of April. That is, '93.
14 Q. Will you come closer to the microphone,
16 MR. SUSAK: Now can we ask the usher, please,
17 to show a document to the witness.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D35/4.
19 MR. SUSAK:
20 Q. Mr. Bralo, can you see this document? What
21 does it say?
22 A. Yes, of course I see it.
23 Q. What does it mean? You also have the English
24 translation, and you also have it in Croatian.
25 A. This is a document certifying that I worked
1for the British Battalion.
2 Q. That is that you were employed there?
3 A. Yes, that I was employed there, as I have
5 Q. Will you read the last sentence, please.
6 A. This one here, you mean? "It is certified
7 hereby that Anto Bralo is employed at Vitez camp as the
8 boiler stoker and that he is thereby authorised to
9 enter the camp." This is what I was given.
10 Q. Right. Will you tell us, while you were
11 employed by the UNPROFOR, did you work both in daytime
12 and at night?
13 A. Yes, I covered the first and the third shift.
14 Q. So both during daytime and at night time?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. SUSAK: Will the usher please show now
17 the second document to the witness.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D36/4.
19 MR. SUSAK:
20 Q. Mr. Bralo, will you tell us, what does this
21 document mean?
22 A. This document means that I worked -- they
23 translate it into Croatian.
24 Q. No, but read it to us in Croatian. What does
25 it say?
1A. It is with regard that "I have to give you
2 notice of the termination of your service from the 25th
3 of April 1993."
4 Q. So it was a certification by UNPROFOR that it
5 was the termination of your service?
6 A. Yes, that my service was to be terminated on
7 the 25th of April.
8 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, if the Prosecutor
9 does not trust these translations, I also have the
10 originals, if need be, to confirm the authenticity, if
11 that proves necessary.
12 Q. I see it is not, so, Mr. Bralo, I shall
13 continue with my examination. Will you tell us, where
14 were you at the time of the first conflict, that is, on
15 the 20th of October, 1992?
16 A. On the 20th -- on the 19th of October we went
17 to the wood to fell some trees, to cut wood.
18 Q. To the wood. And where is that wood?
19 A. It is Kruscica, and I, Anto Bralo, Franjo
20 Kovac, Mirsad Osmancevic, and my late brother, Ivo
21 Bralo, went there.
22 Q. Did you take part in the first conflict? You
23 said that you went to cut wood.
24 A. I did not take part.
25 Q. Do you know if any houses were damaged in
1that first conflict?
2 A. In that first conflict, I learnt it when I
3 arrived next morning, Drago Josipovic's stable was on
4 fire, whether his wife's or his mother's, but at any
5 rate, it was on fire. And on his house there were
6 bullet marks, on the walls of his house.
7 Q. While you -- that was at the time when you
8 were employed by the UNPROFOR, and while you were in
9 Santici, did you ever go on guard?
10 A. I did it, but seldom. I did not have an
11 opportunity, since I was employed, so the people simply
12 relieved me of that, as I simply couldn't do both
13 things; that is, both work and stand guard.
14 Q. Whilst you were employed with UNPROFOR, did
15 you have an UNPROFOR uniform?
16 A. Yes, I did. I was given it by a soldier as a
17 kind of work clothes which I wore when I was down there
18 in the boiler room.
19 Q. Did you wear it all the time?
20 A. Yes, well, I would wear it on my way back
21 home and on my way to work.
22 Q. Now we shall move on to the 16th of April,
23 1993. Will you tell us, where were you on the day
24 before that, that is, on the 15th of April, 1993?
25 A. On the 15th of April, 1993, I came home with
2 Q. And where did you come from?
3 A. I came from UNPROFOR, from the battalion for
4 which I worked. So we got home, we fed our livestock,
5 had coffee. Of course, in the evening we went to bed
6 and tried to get some rest so as to go to work next
8 Q. When did you go to bed?
9 A. It was between 10.00 and 11.00. That is when
10 we usually went to bed.
11 Q. Now will you please tell us about your
12 experience on the 16th of April. How did you wake up?
13 A. On the 16th of April, I was woken up by
14 gunfire. I got up, went out to the balcony, upset,
15 very anxious, frightened, not knowing what was going
17 Q. Did anyone come to your house that morning?
18 A. Franjo Kovac and his wife and one child came
19 to us.
20 Q. Where did you come -- did they come to your
21 door, or what?
22 A. They came to our entrance. Mrs. Kata Kovac
23 and her child entered the house and Franjo Kovac stayed
24 outside, and we just discussed the situation and what
25 was going on.
1Q. Did you see anyone on the road above?
2 A. Yes, I saw Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic at
3 the crossroad, some 50 or 60 metres away from my
5 Q. And were they moving or standing?
6 A. Franjo Kovac and I were talking what to do
7 and how to go about it. We decided to go to Mirsad
8 Osmancevic's stable.
9 Q. Were you moving in the direction of Anto
10 Papic and Drago Josipovic as they were standing at the
12 A. Yes, we were. But they started to the right,
13 towards Mirsad Osmancevic's house, where Anto Papic
14 lived, to see what was going on.
15 Q. So they went up, and what did you do?
16 A. We started towards Anto Papic's house,
17 towards his stable.
18 Q. That is, you went in the opposite direction?
19 A. Yes. That is, we went to the left and they
20 went to the right.
21 Q. So you left Anto and Franjo Kovac behind the
22 stable of --
23 A. Yes, Anto Papic's stable.
24 Q. What did you see after that? Did you see
25 anyone come down the road? Did you see Drago Josipovic
1and Anto Papic after that?
2 A. A few minutes later, perhaps some ten minutes
3 later, I saw two or three children crying and coming.
4 I saw Hasim Ahmic and his wife and his daughter-in-law
5 and three children, and Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic
6 were going by the side to Anto Papic's house, and they
7 all entered Anto Papic's house.
8 Q. After that, when did you see Drago Josipovic
9 and Anto Papic again, and did you see them again at
11 A. Yes, I did see them again. I saw them
12 again. They came after a while and we talked for some
13 time. Franjo Kovac, Anto Papic, Drago Josipovic, and I
14 were talking. We were standing by the stable. We were
15 all very worried, and Anto Papic was -- had tears in
16 his eyes. And I was very upset, because we were all
17 neighbours. We knew all those people, and we were on
18 very good terms.
19 Q. So that morning, you mean that you were all
20 at home, Anto Papic, you, Franjo Kovac, and Drago
22 A. Yes. We were at home, and Drago Josipovic
24 Q. We are still referring to the 16th of April,
1A. Yes, yes, yes.
2 Q. So you said that you were next to the stable,
3 and what were your movements after that?
4 A. Well, I start to my house, down to -- and
5 then to Nikola Omazic's house, rather, where Franjo
6 Kovac was staying.
7 Q. And did you then go home?
8 A. Yes, then I went home.
9 Q. When you look from Nikola Omazic's house in
10 the direction of your house, there is a field there.
11 So is there a lane, is there a path to go to your house
12 without crossing the field?
13 A. Yes, there is.
14 Q. Does it go down to your house?
15 A. Yes, there is a certain slope, and you go
16 down it to your house.
17 Q. Your wife told us yesterday that from the
18 terrace from which she observed the situation and the
19 area in front of Nikola Omazic's house, that in order
20 to get a better view of the road, that she moved some
21 five or six metres from the house. So what does it
22 mean, she wanted to get a better view and being on the
24 A. Yes, my wife is rather short, so in order to
25 see better --
1Q. Will you please slow down, Mr. Bralo. Your
2 house is dug into the ground?
3 A. Yes, it is quite correct. It is dug into
4 it. It is on the level with the field which is above
6 Q. And the terrace?
7 A. Well, the terrace is slightly higher.
8 Q. If you move forward towards the lane, is that
9 higher than-- is that ground higher than the terrace?
10 A. Yes, it is. She went out into the meadow,
11 some five or six metres into the meadow, and then she
12 could see the road better because it is all clear.
13 Q. You say it is all clear. It is an exposed
14 area. So what kind of ground do we have towards the
15 road and towards Musafer Puscul's house?
16 A. Well, it is all exposed area, their houses,
17 but they are scattered to the left and right. So if
18 you come out two or three metres of the meadow, then
19 you can see towards the road.
20 Q. So you can see this whole area, and you also
21 say that houses are visible and there is a good view of
22 the areas between the houses?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What were you doing on the 16th of
25 April, '93, during that day?
1A. Well, I moved between my house and Anto's
2 house and to the stable.
3 Q. That is where you spent most of your time?
4 A. Yes, that is where we spent most of our time.
5 Q. Who?
6 A. Anto Papic, Franjo Kovac, Drago Josipovic,
7 because we were there all together within a circle.
8 Q. Where else did you go? Did you go anywhere
10 A. Well, then Marija Papic called us because she
11 has some livestock, so Anto Papic and I went to feed
12 her livestock. We fed pigs and poultry, hens, and
13 things of that sort.
14 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether, apart from
15 (redacted) and her family, on the 16th of April, were
16 there any other Muslims in Anto Papic's house on that
18 A. Yes, there was Ramic. I mean Ramic's family
19 was there.
20 Q. Could you please recall the names, Ramic?
21 A. Yes, Hasim -- no, I mean Cazim. Cazim Ramic,
22 I think that was his name, something like that. I know
23 him as Cazim Ramic, I believe he was. Then his wife,
24 his daughter-in-law and two grandchildren were there.
25 Those were my next-door neighbours.
1Q. Who else was there?
2 A. There was also - Hasim also registered that,
3 and his wife and his daughter-in-law and grandchildren.
4 Q. Yes, but you already told us that.
5 A. There (redacted), with her mother and two
6 children. I saw her in Anto Papic's house.
7 Q. Who else?
8 A. There was some other refugees who must have
9 fled from Jajce beforehand and were staying with
10 friends or somebody, and they were also there. There
11 were quite a number of people in the house. I saw
13 Q. Right. Mr. Bralo, do you know if Mirsad
14 Osmancevic and his family were also in Anto Papic's
16 A. Yes, they were there on the 16th, Mirsad
17 Osmanac and his wife.
18 Q. Osmanac or what?
19 A. Osmancevic, Osmancevic, but we called him
21 Q. But he is Osmancevic?
22 A. Yes. His wife, and he also had three sons.
23 Q. Would you tell us whether he left Anto
24 Papic's house on that day?
25 A. Yes, he did. His wife, I can't remember her
2 Q. It doesn't matter?
3 A. His wife and three children crossed Radak's
4 Bridge and went to Jozo Cerkez's house.
5 Q. Did Mirsad Osmancevic go in that direction?
6 A. Mirsad Osmancevic went, yes. Drago Josipovic
7 went with him because he wanted to be with his wife and
8 children at Jozo Cerkez's house because they had very
9 close relations, they were very good friends, so they
10 went there.
11 Q. Did Mirsad Osmancevic have a young child,
12 younger than a year old?
13 A. Yes, he did, a little son.
14 Q. Could that child have lived under the
15 conditions prevailing in Anto Papic's house?
16 A. No. It was not good for adults either.
17 Q. Is that the reason why his family left for
19 A. Yes, very probably, because the living
20 conditions were much better, much more comfortable.
21 That house is spacious.
22 Q. Do you know how Mirsad Osmancevic went to
24 A. Drago Josipovic took him as far as Jozo
25 Cerkez's house.
1Q. Did he help him in any other way?
2 A. Yes, he did. He gave him a vest, the vest he
3 was wearing. He gave it to him so that he would be
4 safer going to Jozo Cerkez's house.
5 Q. Do you know how long he stayed up there and
6 whether he knew anyone there?
7 A. No, he didn't stay very long.
8 Q. Who didn't stay very long?
9 A. Mirsad Osmancevic, with his wife and
10 children. They came back soon, after an hour or two.
11 Q. Where did they come back?
12 A. They came back to Anto Papic's house, which
13 they had left.
14 Q. Do you know why?
15 A. Well, I didn't see it myself, but I heard
16 that a soldier threatened Jozo.
17 Q. Jozo Cerkez?
18 A. Yes, Jozo Cerkez, that he would blow his
19 house up if Mirsad Osmancevic was there, so Mirsad
20 Osmancevic came back to Anto Papic's house.
21 Q. Did he have any problems on his way back?
22 A. No, he didn't.
23 Q. Did he come back on his own or did his family
24 come with him?
25 A. They came back together, and they came to
1Anto Papic's house.
2 Q. Did they settle down in that house?
3 A. Yes, they did, and they spent the night
5 Q. Would you tell us -- but I have to say that
6 you and Mirsad Osmancevic had gone to cut wood, so I
7 conclude that you cooperated, that you worked together.
8 Could you tell us something about him? Was he a
10 A. Yes, he was a Muslim by nationality.
11 Q. Do you know any other information about him?
12 A. Yes, I know that before the conflict between
13 the Croats and the Muslims, he used to go to a place
14 called Preocica for the training of soldiers.
15 Q. Whose soldiers?
16 A. Most probably soldiers of the army of Bosnia
17 and Herzegovina, as they called it, because I talked to
18 him but he never wanted to discuss it with me.
19 Q. So he was a member of the army of Bosnia and
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He trained the younger soldiers?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is he still an officer in the army of Bosnia
25 and Herzegovina or the Federation of Bosnia and
2 A. I heard about it, but I didn't discuss it
3 with him.
4 Q. What did you hear?
5 A. I heard that he was some kind of senior
7 Q. With a rank?
8 A. Yes, with a rank.
9 Q. You said that sometimes you would patrol, but
10 that you didn't have time. Who kept records in that
11 area as to the patrols?
12 A. It was Nikica Grebenar.
13 Q. Did he patrol?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Why not?
16 A. He had other duties. He was some kind of
17 inspector. He had more to do, so he didn't have to
18 patrol and he couldn't do it.
19 Q. Could you tell us, please, the area where you
21 A. From Anto Papic's house to the road; that is,
22 to Jozo Santic's house, Drago Josipovic's house,
23 because his house is next to the road.
24 Q. So where Drago Josipovic's house is next to
25 the road?
2 Q. Since these are hamlets with a special
3 configuration of terrain, could you tell us, along the
4 route you mentioned in the direction where the houses
5 of (redacted), Asim Ahmic, and (redacted) are located
6 toward the River Lasva parallel to the route you took,
7 who patrolled there?
8 A. Nenad Santic did. They patrolled the other
10 Q. So that was a special route, a special area
11 where other people patrolled?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. We are now talking about the road. Do you
14 know where the houses of (redacted),
15 are located?
16 A. Yes, I know.
17 Q. Would you tell us, their house across the
18 road to the north, who patrolled there?
19 A. Slavko Papic.
20 Q. So there was another group of people from
21 that hamlet who patrolled, and who was the leader of
22 the patrol?
23 A. Slavko Papic.
24 Q. Slavko Papic then. So above the road is the
25 area where they patrolled, and where (redacted), and
1Asim Ahmic lived is where a group of people kept guard,
2 and Nenad Santic lived there as well?
3 A. Yes, Nenad Santic lived there.
4 Q. Were you a member of the HVO?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. Were you in the reserves?
7 A. Yes, I was in the reserves, but sometimes.
8 Q. So you were in the reserves?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If you were in the reserves, could you please
11 tell when you were mobilised for the first time, if you
12 were mobilised?
13 A. On the 15th of April, 19 -- on the 19th of
14 April, 1993, then.
15 Q. So after the second conflict?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who was mobilised with you then?
18 A. Franjo Kovac, Drago Josipovic.
19 Q. Could you speak a little closer to the
20 microphone, please?
21 A. Drago Josipovic, Anto Bralo, Franjo Kovac.
22 Q. Was Nikica Grebenar mobilised?
23 A. Nikica Grebenar.
24 MR. SUSAK: Well, you really don't have to go
1I would like, Mr. President, to ask the usher
2 to show the witness Exhibit number -- just a moment,
3 please. I think it's 353.
4 Yes, this is the exhibit.
5 Q. Would you please look at page 78? I
6 apologise. Page 84. Have you opened it?
7 Mr. Bralo, on page 84 you can see a name
8 somewhere in the middle, a little down. Would you
9 please find your name? I think it's number 7.562.
10 Have you found your name?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Would you please look at the document itself
13 and not at the monitor. You have the document in front
14 of you. Have you found it?
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. First of all, is that your signature?
17 A. No, no, it's not my signature.
18 Q. Underneath your name is the name "Nikola
19 Bralo". Is he your brother?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that his signature below yours?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Are these two signatures the same?
24 A. Yes. Someone signed. They are both
25 signatures, but they are neither my signature nor my
2 Q. The time of your mobilisation is stated as
3 the 8th of April, 1992, until the 10th of December,
4 1995. Is that correct?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How do you explain this?
7 A. I know it's not, because I didn't sign this,
8 and somebody probably put this there because of the
9 shares, so I would get more shares. But it's not my
11 Q. So the date here says that you were
12 mobilised. Is that correct?
13 A. No.
14 Q. If you were employed in UNPROFOR, could you
15 have at the same time been an active member of the HVO?
16 A. No, I couldn't have been, because I was
17 working in UNPROFOR.
18 Q. So could you tell us when you were mobilised
19 for the first time and, in your opinion, from what time
20 were you a member of the HVO?
21 A. The 19th of April, 1993.
22 Q. Where were you employed before that?
23 A. In the British UNPROFOR.
24 Q. So that is why you claimed that this
25 information in Exhibit 353 is not correct; do you agree
2 A. Yes, yes, I agree. This is not mine.
3 Q. Is this your brother's signature?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How do you explain this, that both signatures
6 are exactly the same?
7 A. Well, I see that they are the same because
8 someone signed it, but it's neither my signature nor my
9 brother's signature.
10 Q. You said that you knew Franjo Kovac, who is
11 your neighbour?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know when he was mobilised?
14 A. He was mobilised at the same time that I was,
15 on the 19th.
16 Q. Could you tell us the complete date?
17 A. The 19th of April, 1993.
18 Q. Was he mobilised before that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Why is the date there a different date in his
21 case also?
22 A. As far as I knew him, he would come here.
23 But he lived in Novi Travnik and was employed there, so
24 he wasn't mobilised.
25 Q. Did they know about him or not?
1A. Well, they didn't.
2 Q. How would they know about him when he spent
3 more time with his parents than in his own house?
4 A. He would only come from time to time. He had
5 a job.
6 MR. SUSAK: I would now like to show you an
7 aerial photograph, and that will be the last part of my
8 examination. Would the usher please hand the exhibit
9 to the witness.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D37/4.
11 MR. SUSAK:
12 Q. Mr. Bralo --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you please circle the house of Nikola
15 Omazic on that photograph?
16 A. (Witness complies)
17 Q. Would you mark it with "A"?
18 A. (Witness complies)
19 Q. I'll now read something to you. Kijazim
20 Ramic made a statement on the 16th of February, 1995,
21 so if the Prosecutor does not object, I would like to
22 read only one sentence, and I would like you to put the
23 circle around his house. Then I will ask you a
24 question about this.
25 A. (Witness complies)
1Q. It says in the statement, which was given
2 after both conflicts so I suppose it refers to both, it
3 says, "I saw Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic in
4 camouflage uniforms and armed. They did not kill
6 Would you please now circle Kijazim Ramic's
7 house? Would you please --
8 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Susak.
9 (Trial Chamber confers)
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, as we ruled
11 yesterday, you can't cite from a statement of a witness
12 who has not been called. You may call this witness,
13 but this is not evidence, so we will regard this as
14 inadmissible and we will disregard whatever has been
15 said. Please don't read out any statement from people
16 who have not come to court.
17 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I accept this, but
18 I did say "if the Prosecutor did not object." The
19 Prosecutor did not object, but that does not matter
20 now. I will just put a question to the witness.
21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I should
22 nevertheless like to say something.
23 [Indiscernible]... was authorised Mr. Susak
24 to read things of this kind again, and after all, it is
25 up to the Court, of course, to control what is being
1said and what is being used, but Mr. Susak should have
2 asked for the authorisation to quote something from the
3 statement which was given to the Prosecution. However,
4 it seems to me that it is really questionable, and not
5 to use another word, to show to this witness something
6 to equate a witness who said that Mr. Josipovic did not
7 kill anyone.
8 At any rate, this is referring to the first
9 conflict and not the second conflict. It's quite true
10 that this statement was taken after the second
11 conflict, but it is very clear, and this is something
12 that I can testify here, this witness -- this
13 [indiscernible] witness is referring to the 20th of
14 October, '92, and I think it is wholly questionable
15 when somebody just reads out that statement just like
16 that and then try to adduce it as a kind of evidence.
17 That is all that I had to say. Thank you
18 very much.
19 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I did not think it
20 would be evidence, because you ruled on this yesterday,
21 but this was just a kind of aid on the basis of which I
22 would ask questions of the witness.
23 Q. Mr. Bralo, would you please tell me, have you
24 marked Kijazim Ramic's house? Would you now put number
25 "1" next to Nikola Omazic's house and number "2" next
1to Cazim Ahmic's (sic) house?
2 A. Kijazim Ramic?
3 Q. Ramic, yes, yes.
4 A. (Witness complies)
5 Q. Would you now put an arrow to indicate the
6 direction from Kijazim Ramic's house to Nikola Omazic's
8 A. (Witness complies)
9 Q. From the direction of Kijazim Ramic's house,
10 do you have a view of the road where Drago Josipovic
11 and Anto Papic were moving on the 16th of April, 1993?
12 A. Yes, yes, because it's just a few metres
14 Q. Could Kijazim Ramic have seen him that
15 morning, considering the position of the windows on his
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The windows of Kijazim Ramic's house, do they
19 face the house of Nikola Omazic?
20 A. They face -- some windows face the other
21 house and some windows face the road.
22 Q. Could Kijazim Ramic have seen from his window
23 Naim Ahmic's house, Muzafer Puscul and where --
24 A. Could you please repeat the question?
25 Q. From that position, was there a view of
1Muzafer Puscul's house and Fahran Ahmic's house?
2 A. Yes, there was, yes.
3 Q. So there was a view?
4 A. Yes. You could see the house of Fahran Ahmic
5 and Muzafer Puscul.
6 Q. Could you please mark Muzafer Puscul's house
7 with the letter "A"?
8 A. (Witness complies)
9 Q. Could you now mark or circle the houses of
10 (redacted) and Asim Ahmic with "B", "C",
11 and "D"?
12 A. (Witness complies)
13 Q. Have you done it?
14 A. Just a moment, please.
15 Q. Are you sure of this?
16 A. Yes. Just a moment, just a moment. I don't
17 see very well on this photograph.
18 Q. If you find the Ogrjev warehouse, you'll
19 orient yourself better, and if you have marked anything
20 incorrectly, would you please cross it out.
21 So these are the houses of (redacted), and
22 Asim Ahmic.
23 Would you now draw a line between (redacted)
25 A. (Witness complies)
1Q. If one were to look from (redacted)
2 house or stable toward the road and toward the houses
3 of (redacted) and the others, would an average person
4 have been able to observe a group of soldiers?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I'm asking you this because some witnesses
7 said they saw a group of witnesses (sic) moving toward
8 Muzafer Puscul's house or, rather, from that to the
9 road and toward the houses of (redacted), and Asim
11 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have been told
12 that in the transcript, it says "a group of witnesses."
13 I think it should be "a group of soldiers."
14 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
15 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I would now like
16 to go into private session.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we'll go into private
19 (Private session)
13 page 10411 redacted – private session
13 page 10412 redacted – private session
13 page 10413 redacted – private session
13 page 10414 redacted – private session
13 page 10415 redacted – private session
13 page 10416 redacted – private session
13 page 10417 redacted – private session
13 page 10418 redacted – private session
13 page 10419 redacted – private session
13 page 10420 redacted – private session
13 page 10421 redacted – private session
22 (Open session)
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bralo. I'm one of the
25 counsel for the Prosecution, and I should like to ask
1you several questions on the basis of your testimony.
2 I should like to know, Mr. Bralo, how were you
3 recruited by the British battalion as a stoker? How is
4 it that you found that job?
5 A. My father-in-law worked as a stoker, and then
6 they needed another worker, so my father-in-law asked
7 me would I like to join, and I said yes. I went there
8 and talked to a captain there, and they suggested that
9 I come, and that is how I came and began to work.
10 Q. You told us that a British soldier gave you a
11 uniform. I didn't quite understand whether it was
12 really an army uniform, or was it working clothes,
13 simply? What was it, precisely?
14 A. It was -- well, sort of green, olive-grey,
15 something like that, trousers, and a camouflage jacket,
16 whatever you call it, and that is what I used when I
17 went to work. Since I worked in the boiler room, and
18 that's not a particularly clean job, so I used it. It
19 had pockets on the side and longer -- quite a deep
20 pocket, actually, on the side.
21 Q. But this camouflage jacket was given you by a
22 British soldier?
23 A. Yes. Both the trousers and the jacket.
24 Q. And these were the clothes that you had on
25 the 16th of April, 1993?
2 Q. On the 16th of April, 1993, did you also have
3 a weapon?
4 A. I took it when I went from my house towards
5 Anto Papic's stable. I took it from my house.
6 Q. And this means, if I understand you properly,
7 that as of the moment when you left your house that
8 morning, you were armed with a weapon?
9 A. Well, not quite straight away, but I had to
10 go back, because we often moved between this house and
11 the stable and Nikola Omazic's house. When I went into
12 the house for the second time, it was then that I
13 picked up the rifle and started for Anto Papic's
14 house -- stable, sorry.
15 Q. Could you please explain, why did you think
16 it was necessary to arm yourself with a weapon to go to
17 Anto Papic's stable? What was the reason behind it?
18 A. Well, what could I do? There were women and
19 children, somebody else might have taken it, and I had
20 it already, so it was safer to have it with me than
21 leave it in the house.
22 Q. What kind of a weapon was that? Can you
23 specify it?
24 A. You mean my rifle?
25 Q. Yes.
1A. An old M48 rifle. That's what it was called
2 at the time.
3 Q. You told us, Mr. Bralo, that after the Kovac
4 family arrived, you remained outside your house with
5 your neighbour, Franjo Kovac; is that correct?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. And you told us that at that moment, you saw
8 Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic at some five (sic) or
9 sixty metres away from you; is that correct?
10 A. It is, yes. I was in front of my house and
11 they were at the crossroad. Franjo Kovac and I started
12 towards the stable, and they started towards Franjo
13 Kovac's house -- that is, where he lived, and that was
14 the house of his father-in-law, Nikola Omazic.
15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Terrier, I want to interrupt
16 to ask about the crossroads. The witness has produced
17 or has marked an aerial photograph, D37/4. If that
18 could be put in front of him, perhaps he could mark on
19 it or show us where the crossroads to which he is
20 referring are.
21 A. This is my house, and that is the crossroad
22 down to Anto Papic. Up there is Nikola Omazic and my
23 house to the right (indicating).
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bralo, can you point to where
25 the crossroads are? At the moment, I can't see it.
1A. (Witness complies)
2 MR. TERRIER: I believe, Mr. President, that
3 the witness has some problems with this photograph.
4 Q. Mr. Bralo, could you please show us a place
5 which is in the direction of the Lasva River from your
6 house; that is, down the slope? Is that where you saw
7 Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic the first time that you
8 saw them?
9 A. No. No. No, here, at this crossroad, in the
10 direction of Nikola Omazic's house (indicating).
11 Q. Can you see better in this way? If we turn
12 the photograph, is it easier for you now to get your
14 A. No, it is not.
15 This is the road, the asphalt road towards
16 Radak's Bridge; that is, towards the Lasva, towards the
17 river. Here it is, the bridge (indicating).
18 Q. Can you now find the place where you were
19 standing with Franjo Kovac at the moment when you
20 spotted Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic? Perhaps you
21 could start from your house. Find your house first,
22 and then show us where that particular place is in
23 relation to your house.
24 A. This is my house (indicating), and we were
25 here, on the balcony; I, Franjo Kovac. Then we started
1here, towards the crossroad, but we were down below it,
2 towards Anto Papic's stable, and they started upward,
3 towards Nikola Omazic's house.
4 Q. Could you please show us these particular
5 crossroads in relation to your house. Where is that
7 A. This is the lane to my house.
8 Q. When you refer to "the crossroads," you are
9 referring to the intersection between the road which
10 goes down to your house and the lane which goes to
11 Nikola Omazic's -- to Papic's house?
12 A. Yes -- no. No, Anto Papic is to the left,
13 and I'm like this, and there is the lane which goes
14 down (indicating). Nikola Omazic is at the slightly
15 higher ground, on a plateau.
16 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, to clarify it,
17 we shall show the witness another photograph. Perhaps
18 it will be easier than to identify the site.
19 THE REGISTRAR: This is 370.
20 MR. TERRIER:
21 Q. Can you find your way around this map?
22 A. I can, yes. Yes, I can. Much better.
23 Q. Could you then show us your house, please?
24 A. (Witness complies)
25 Q. Will you now indicate the crossroads that you
2 A. (Witness complies)
3 Q. So this is the intersection between the lane
4 which goes down to your house and another lane which
5 goes from Anto Papic's house to the main road?
6 A. No, to Nikola Omazic's house, then Ramic's
7 house, and then on towards the main road.
8 Q. Could you point on this map that place where
9 you were with Frano Kovac that morning when you noticed
10 Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic for the first time?
11 Where were you at that moment?
12 A. Here (indicating) in front of -- right in
13 front of the house, about a metre from the house.
14 Q. Will you please put an "A" there? Will you
15 please put the letter "A" next to that place?
16 A. (Witness complies)
17 Q. Now will you mark on this photograph the
18 place where Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic were at the
19 time when you saw them for the first time?
20 A. (Witness complies)
21 Q. Will you please then put the letter "B" next
22 to it?
23 A. (Witness complies)
24 Q. What is the distance between these two
25 points, in your judgement?
1A. Fifty or sixty metres. I did not really
2 count them, but you have a good view because this lane
3 goes down a little bit, but you can see. You do get a
4 full view.
5 Q. You have no doubt in your mind. You had no
6 problem. You had absolutely no obstacle, nothing, at
7 this distance of 50 to 60 metres, to see Drago
8 Josipovic and Anto Papic?
9 A. No, nothing at all. I saw them.
10 Q. What were they wearing at that moment?
11 A. Anto Papic had a camouflage uniform, and
12 Drago Josipovic had only a vest, an army vest, and
13 civilian trousers. I don't know what kind. I really
14 wasn't looking.
15 Q. Was he armed?
16 A. I did not see anything at that moment, but an
17 hour later I saw that he had a rifle with him.
18 Q. At what time did you see Anto Papic and Drago
19 Josipovic at that crossroads, at those crossroads for
20 the first time?
21 A. Half past 5.00, perhaps a minute or two
22 later, as they came out of the house, and I cast a look
23 and I saw them in front of me.
24 Q. At that moment, could you look at your watch
25 or a clock?
1A. No. I didn't have a watch on my wrist, and
2 we do not have a clock on the wall. We usually have
3 some small clock somewhere in the house, but, no, I
4 didn't look at that.
5 Q. So when you mentioned the hour which you just
6 mentioned, it is just an estimate?
7 A. Well, that was -- I usually got up at half
8 past 5.00 because I had to go to work, so by the time I
9 would be ready and had my coffee, that was about the
10 time when I had to go to work. So that was the time
11 when I got up, as a rule.
12 Q. When you saw Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic
13 for the first time at that place which you pointed on
14 this map, what were they doing?
15 A. What they were doing? What could they be
16 doing? They were there.
17 Q. Yes, but my question is were they about to
18 start in some direction, were they moving, or were they
20 A. They were standing, but then Frano Kovac and
21 I started from Anto Bralo's house to Anto Papic's
22 stable. They set towards -- they set off towards
23 Nikola Omazic's house, and we set off towards Anto
24 Papic's stable.
25 Q. When did you see them again?
1A. A few minutes later, perhaps ten minutes
2 later, by the time that Anto Papic and I crossed over
3 to the stable. (redacted) and three children and her
4 daughter-in-law came along, and Drago Josipovic and
5 Anto Papic were with them, reached Anto Papic's house
6 and entered it.
7 Q. You told us that that day you spent in the
8 vicinity or in the stable of Anto Papic; is that so?
9 A. In front of the stable, my house, Nikola
10 Omazic's house, yes, that was roughly that area,
11 because we dared not go up towards the road.
12 Q. Did you hear and could you see in the
13 direction of the road?
14 A. We heard gunfire. All we heard was gunfire.
15 Q. Could you see anything?
16 A. No, I couldn't, because I wasn't going up
17 there. I mostly stayed down in my house, and this
18 stable, there was a wall there, and that is where we
20 Q. Excuse me, but all that day you did not see
21 the smoke coming out from the burning houses?
22 A. Yes, yes, from my house one could see the
23 smoke, one could see the smoke.
24 Q. Did you see any soldiers?
25 A. I did not see any soldiers because my house
1is slightly lower than Nikola Omazic's house. I could
2 see anyone -- if there was anyone, I could see them
3 only had I climbed up.
4 Q. Yes. But, Witness, you did climb up, because
5 you did go to Anto Papic's stable. You went to Anto
6 Papic's stable, so you had to go up the road to this
7 intersection and then turn left, or am I wrong?
8 A. No, no. No, you are wrong, because in front
9 of my house the ground is level, there is a very slight
10 slope towards Anto Papic's slope, and we are going
11 below the road towards this -- we were off that part of
12 that lane because it was safer.
13 Q. On that day, on the 16th of April, 1993, did
14 you learn what was going on in Ahmici at any time
15 during that day?
16 A. Well, I could see, but I did not learn
17 anything. We were talking about what could it be,
18 because there was gunfire and things were happening up
19 there on the higher ground, and we did not move in the
20 direction of the road.
21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, now I should
22 like to move into private session, because I want to
23 raise the question mentioned by a protected witness.
24 (Private session)
13 page 10433 redacted – private session
13 page 10434 redacted – private session
13 page 10435 redacted – private session
13 page 10436 redacted – private session
5 (Open session)
6 MR. TERRIER:
7 Q. I should like to go back to the situation
8 that you described to us referring to the 16th of
9 April. We have a large number of Muslim refugees
10 driven away from those houses and all gathered in Anto
11 Papic's house. We were told that over 30 persons were
12 crowded in two rooms, nine metres square each, and that
13 you, with other persons of Croat origin, you were
14 outside. Now, why did those persons, who were all
15 crowded and in such difficult conditions, why did they
16 not come out and be with you outside on that day? How
17 does one explain this situation?
18 A. Those ladies and those gentlemen who were in
19 Anto Papic's house could come out whenever they
20 wanted. There was no bathroom in the house. There was
21 no proper accommodation. It is true that there were
22 quite a number of them. I did not count them, but they
23 were also in the passage and in the sitting room and in
24 the kitchen. True, there were quite a number of them.
25 They were really crowded there. They were packed in
1there. So they would come out once in a while, or go
2 to the toilet, and then return.
3 Q. Yes, but why were there no Muslim refugees in
4 your house?
5 A. I don't know. The door was open to anyone
6 who wanted, who had fled from the road. So they could
7 have come too. But presumably they went down there
8 because they knew Anto Papic better, and he is an
9 elderly man, and he is also -- he has been living in
10 the village for a very long time. He was a local man.
11 Q. So all these women mostly went to Anto Papic
12 because they knew him, and so they were in those pretty
13 horrible conditions that were described to us?
14 A. Yes, I suppose, because they knew Anto best.
15 Q. Witness, I'm now moving on to the next day,
16 to the 17th of April. Do you remember if some persons
17 of authority came to Anto Papic's house that morning?
18 A. As a far as I know, there were those
19 villagers, local people. (redacted), with
20 her mother and children; Cazim Ramic; Hasim Ahmic, with
21 his wife and his daughter-in-law and their children,
22 they were there. And on the 17th, I don't know, in the
23 morning, anyway, they went towards the road with Anto
25 Q. But as far as you remember, when was it that
1they went towards the --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are sorry,
3 we couldn't understand the answer of the witness.
4 MR. TERRIER:
5 Q. What about Hasim Ahmic and his children?
6 Could you explain?
7 A. Fahrudin Ahmic -- not Fahrudin Ahmic, his
8 father, Hasim, and his mother, Fahran's mother and
9 daughter-in-law and children, they were at Anto
10 Papic's, and Hasim Ahmic was there with his children.
11 Q. I shall rephrase my question. Do you
12 remember if, on the 16th April, some decisions or some
13 orders were issued regarding the removal of bodies?
14 A. I don't know. I don't remember anything
15 about that, nor did I hear anything about that from
17 Q. Who and how decided that all the refugees
18 should be taken to Zume?
19 A. Well, somebody, it must have been somebody in
20 the civil defence, somebody who had the authority,
21 because the conditions were so bad, and the man
22 couldn't provided any food for those people. He could
23 not feed them.
24 Q. In the summary of your statement sent us by
25 Mr. Susak, it says that somebody from the civil defence
1in Vitez said that women and children should be removed
2 and be taken to Pican's coffee shop. Is that what you
3 told Mr. Susak?
4 A. Yes, they were taken, but not to the coffee
5 shop, but the house was quite spacious, and they were
6 taken there until UNPROFOR came and collected them from
7 there. From what we knew, they were told they would be
8 taken in the direction of Zenica. But where they were
9 taken, I don't know.
10 Q. What do you mean when you say "somebody from
11 the civil defence in Vitez"? What do you mean by that?
12 A. I don't mean anything. I didn't talk to
13 those people, I didn't communicate with them, so I
14 didn't know. And I was at home, so ...
15 Q. But did you see those people?
16 A. No.
17 Q. How do you know that it was somebody from the
18 Vitez civil defence?
19 A. I don't know who it was. Anto perhaps --
20 Papic, he speaks some German, and he communicated with
21 him. We did not move much around, but he said that
22 UNPROFOR would take them over, that he would be taken
23 there to Pican's coffee shop, and Anto went with them.
24 Because this coffee shop, it was a rather large house,
25 it was a two-storied house, so the refugees were taken
1there. And when did UNPROFOR come and take them away,
2 I don't know. I did not see it.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please
4 come closer to the microphone.
5 MR. TERRIER:
6 Q. As a matter of fact, you have a very vague
7 memory of that period of time, don't you?
8 A. Well, I didn't have a watch. I could not
9 really follow -- I couldn't really know when things
10 were happening.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please
12 come closer to the microphone.
13 MR. TERRIER:
14 Q. I'm not asking you to remember if you say
15 that you forgot things. I should simply like to make a
16 difference between what your personal recollection is
17 and the assumption as to what happened or what you were
18 told that had happened. As regards this civil defence
19 in Vitez, you seem to be very vague.
20 A. Well, I did not communicate with them at all,
21 with those people.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please
23 come closer to the microphone.
24 MR. TERRIER:
25 Q. Could you tell us briefly what you did that
2 JUDGE CASSESE: The interpreters are
3 insisting that you should speak into the microphone,
4 closer to the microphone.
5 A. On the 17th, in the morning, Franjo Kovac and
6 Drago Josipovic came to my house around 9.00, or half
7 past nine, it could have been, 9.30, something like
8 that. Drago then went home to feed the livestock, and
9 we went to Marija Papic's, to the right from my house,
10 across a meadow. We went there to feed her cows and
11 pigs and hens so that they wouldn't die.
12 MR. TERRIER:
13 Q. Yes? That is all you remember about that
14 day, about the 17th of April?
15 A. The 17th, yes. Then we returned, and we were
16 told then, on the way, that they had gone with Anto
17 Papic, those people who had been in his house had gone
18 up to Pican's coffee shop, or rather to a house above
19 Pican's coffee shop.
20 Q. Do you know what happened afterwards?
21 A. I heard that they went off in the direction
22 of Zenica. That is what I heard, that UNPROFOR took
23 them in the direction of Zenica, but where, exactly, I
24 don't know.
25 Q. And who could tell you that?
1A. Anto Papic went up there with them, and when
2 he came back home, he told us -- and he was also
3 looking for milk and some clothes, because Mirsad
4 Osmanac had a small baby. He had two older boys of six
5 and seven, and they were looking for some clothes and
6 milk for that one-year-old baby. My wife gave him some
7 clothes and poured him some milk, and by the time Anto
8 Papic had gone back up there, UNPROFOR had already
9 taken them away.
10 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have no
11 further questions. I should merely like to tender
12 exhibit number 370.
13 Any objections?
14 I should like to add, Mr. President, that I
15 was referring to 266, not 262.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
17 Counsel Susak?
18 MR. SUSAK: No objection, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: They are admitted into
21 Counsel Susak, re-examination?
22 MR. SUSAK: Just very briefly,
23 Mr. President.
24 Re-examined by Mr. Susak:
25 Q. Mr. Bralo, you said that you saw Anto Papic
1on the 17th of April, 1993?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did he tell you about UNPROFOR being up on
4 the road, or was it someone else?
5 A. He said that about UNPROFOR.
6 Q. Did anyone else tell you about UNPROFOR
7 besides Anto Papic?
8 A. No, nobody else told me about it. Because he
9 could speak a little German.
10 Q. To the Prosecutor's question, you replied
11 that you had seen smoke from your house. Where did you
12 see it?
13 A. Across the road.
14 Q. So over the road, across the road, to the
15 north of the Busovaca/Vitez road?
16 A. Yes, the Busovaca/Vitez road, yes.
17 Q. Do you know whether any Muslim's house near
18 Anto Papic's house or your house was burnt down?
19 A. No, not on the 16th, but yes, on the 17th.
20 Q. Whose house burnt down on the 17th?
21 A. Cazim Ramic's house. His house was burnt on
22 the 17th.
23 Q. Was any other Muslim house burnt down?
24 A. In the area of my lane, no other houses were
25 burnt down.
1Q. Did the Muslims in Anto Papic's house on the
2 16th of April, 1993, come to your house or Nikola
3 Omazic's house?
4 A. Yes, yes, Hasim Ahmic and his wife came to my
5 house, because she knew my wife, so they came in -- she
6 came in. She talked with her. I didn't go in. I
7 stood outside with Hasim. We chatted.
8 Q. Were the Muslims able to go in and out of
9 Anto Papic's house all day?
10 A. Yes, they could go in and out as they liked.
11 Q. Was the door of his house locked?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Would you please say whether you remember
14 which of the Croats were in your house on the 16th of
15 April, 1993?
16 A. As far as I remember it was Marija Papic with
17 her two sons; Simo Vidovic and his wife; Jozo Santic.
18 These are all elderly people.
19 Q. Could any of the Muslims have come to your
20 house and stayed there if they had wanted to?
21 A. Yes, of course. Of course. My next-door
22 neighbours could have come the same way that they went
23 to Anto's house.
24 Q. And one more question. On the 17th -- I
25 apologise, on the 16th of April, 1993, did you go to
1Anto Papic's house?
2 A. Yes, I was there in the evening. It could
3 have been about 8 p.m. or half past 8.00. I had run
4 out of cigarettes, so I asked Mrs. Ramic, and she gave
5 me --
6 Q. What's her name?
7 A. Zilka. Zilka Ramic.
8 Q. Who else was with you?
9 A. Franjo Kovac.
10 Q. Very well. Before you entered Anto Papic's
11 house, did you come across any Muslims, either in his
12 yard or in his house or in your house or in the
14 A. I saw Hasim Ahmic and (redacted). They
15 were at my house, and all the others were in front of
16 Anto's house or walking up and down the road towards
17 the house of Nikola Omazic, as far as I could see.
18 Q. And for the sake of clarity, one more
19 question. We keep referring to the crossroads above
20 your house. Would you please tell us whether there is
21 a road leading to Rovna, and then from Rovna to the
22 main road, near Drago Josipovic's house?
23 A. No. There is a road behind and in front.
24 Q. Very well. I will ask another question: The
25 road from Rovna which passes through Anto Papic's
1courtyard, does it pass by Nikola Omazic's house toward
2 the road?
3 A. It passes by Anto Papic's house, Nikola
4 Omazic's house, and then it goes on toward the main
6 Q. So is there a junction leading to your house
7 from that road?
8 A. Yes, it connects with that road. It's our
9 main road.
10 Q. Would you agree with me that this is not a
11 crossroads, because all of us are wrong, but that this
12 is rather a road from which another road turns toward
13 your house?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have
16 no further questions.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Susak.
18 I have a question. I have a question for
19 you, Mr. Bralo, relating to the way you spent the 16th
20 of April, '93, and the account you gave us in response
21 to a question put to you by Counsel Susak.
22 Now, I understand from your testimony that
23 you were 39 years old; you were wearing a sort of
24 military uniform, UNPROFOR, some sort of uniform; you
25 were carrying a rifle, an M48; and you spent the whole
1day moving between your house, the house of Anto Papic,
2 and the stable of Anto Papic, and in between, you fed
3 pigs and the poultry. Now, this is on a day when
4 something --
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: -- let's say fighting
7 happened, a lot of fighting, firing, houses being
8 burned, and as I say, a lot of firing, starting at
9 about 5.20. And so you moved around with a rifle,
10 feeding pigs and poultry. So it's -- I mean, I'm
11 mystified. It seems so implausible. Could you give us
12 a more detailed account of what you did on the 16th of
13 April, '93?
14 A. On the 16th of April, 1993, I was at home, as
15 I said. We went to the stable of Anto Papic, came
16 back. The second time I came home I took my rifle
17 again, and we went to Anto Papic's stable because it
18 was the safest there. There was a thick stone wall.
19 Marija Papic, who came up to my house, asked
20 me and Franjo Kovac to go -- because her house is next
21 to the road, so she asked either me or Franjo to come,
22 and since both of us went to Marija's house, we fed her
23 livestock and then we came back. It was -- we had to
24 cross some meadows and the wood to get there.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: But look, I mean, Ahmici is a
1small village. I understand it has about 500, 600
2 inhabitants. It's not New York or Tokyo. So you are
3 in a small area, you hear a lot of firing, people
4 shooting, even with heavy -- I mean, with guns and an
5 anti-aircraft gun, and so on, and you go around, you
6 don't ask yourself what is happening, you don't try to
7 go to see where the people are being killed, wounded.
8 You remain in your area, and you feed the poultry, the
9 poultry, the pigs, and you have a chat with your
11 A. Well, who would go up on the road when there
12 was gunfire there? Who would have the heart to go out
13 into the open and be shot by a bullet or hit by a shell
14 or something like that?
15 JUDGE CASSESE: But then why were you
16 carrying a weapon? If you wanted simply to hide or to
17 get shelter, you could remain in your house the whole
18 day without carrying a gun.
19 A. There were women there, quite a lot of women,
20 children, elderly people. So to stop them from being
21 worried, I carried my gun.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
23 Thank you, Mr. Bralo. Thank you for
24 testifying. You may now be released.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
1(The witness withdrew)
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we adjourn, yes, I
3 should ask a question of the Prosecutor.
4 Counsel Susak produced this document signed
5 by Mr. Terrier, and I am not clear. Well, I think you
6 are not tendering this in evidence, so it should be
7 returned to you.
8 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I said that I
9 wished to tender all the documents that were discussed
10 today into evidence. After I completed my examination
11 in chief, I proposed that all these documents,
12 including the one in question, should be entered into
14 THE REGISTRAR: D38/4.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, any objection?
16 MR. TERRIER: No objection, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, thank you. All
18 right, it is admitted into evidence.
19 Before we adjourn, let me make a few points.
20 First of all, we will now reconvene on the
21 5th of July for three weeks. We have already received
22 from Counsel Susak a list of witnesses, two witnesses
23 you intend to call when we reconvene, and I hope that
24 Counsel Pavkovic as well will hand over a list of
1I should also say that on the 12th of July,
2 we will hear a Court witness, the anthropologist we
3 have called. She will be coming here to testify on the
4 12th of July, which I think is a Monday, so therefore
5 there will be a sort of interruption in the flow of
6 Defence witnesses. But this is the only day when she
7 can come and stand, so we will see whether we can hear
8 her either on the 12th or the 13th.
9 Then I would like to clarify one point which
10 I think is not very clear from the transcript.
11 The ruling we made this morning about the
12 accused testifying, I mentioned final statements by the
13 accused, but I was referring, of course, -- I hope this
14 was clear -- to the Nuremberg experience where these
15 statements were made.
16 In our case, we want to confine ourselves to
17 hearing the accused as witnesses if they decide to
18 testify in court at the end of the Defence case and, if
19 need be, at the stage of rejoinder, but we don't intend
20 to give them the opportunity to make a final statement
21 at the end of the whole trial. We don't think it is
22 appropriate, because they will, in any case, have an
23 opportunity to testify twice; first of all, at the end
24 of the Defence case, and then, if you wish to do so, at
25 the stage of rejoinder.
1I wanted to make this clear because, as I
2 say, I think it is not clear from the transcript and
3 probably I was not clear enough this morning.
4 Are there any matters to be discussed before
5 we adjourn? Mr. Terrier?
6 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Mr. President, a very
7 short question regarding the anthropologist that you
8 mentioned and who is to testify on the 12th of July.
9 This was a witness for the Prosecution formerly. Do
10 you think that it will be possible for the Prosecution
11 to see her, to meet her before her testimony, or do you
12 think that would not be advisable?
13 (Trial Chamber confers)
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Since she's a Court witness,
15 we think that it is more appropriate for you not to
16 meet her. Also as far as the examination and
17 re-examination is concerned, we will ask questions, the
18 Court will ask questions. Then it will be your turn,
19 and then, in the end, the Defence. So the normal
20 proceedings when we are dealing with a Court witness,
21 not with a witness called by one of the two parties.
22 Is it clear?
23 We will, in a way, start with a sort of
24 examination in chief, then the Prosecutor, and then
25 Defence counsel.
1Any other questions? Any matters? Defence
2 counsel want to raise any matters? No. All right.
3 Well, then thank you, and we'll adjourn now
4 until the 5th of July at 9.00.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
6 11.50 a.m., to be reconvened on
7 Monday, the 5th day of July, 1999,
8 at 9.00 a.m.