1. 1 Tuesday, 6th July, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-16-T, the

    7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and

    9 Vladimir Santic.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Radovic?

    11 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, just before Your

    12 Honours entered the courtroom, the accused were

    13 photographed. We had not been informed who was the

    14 person who photographed them, for what reasons, and who

    15 authorised taking those photographs. We think it was

    16 completely unauthorised, or somebody should have

    17 informed us what it was all about, and I believe that

    18 our authorisation should have also been sought, or at

    19 least our opinion should have been sought on this

    20 photography. So we should like to propose that the

    21 film be seized, that the photographer be intercepted

    22 and his film be seized.

    23 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, it is for

    25 the Trial Chamber to decide whether or not to authorise



  2. 1taking of photographs, and today these photographers

    2 were indeed authorised by the Trial Chamber. This is a

    3 public trial, and we normally give the authorisation to

    4 photographers to take a few pictures, normally before

    5 the beginning of a trial.

    6 All right, so I think -- yes, Counsel

    7 Radovic.

    8 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I accept your

    9 explanation that it is the Chamber which authorises

    10 such photography, but I believe we should be notified

    11 in advance that this is going to take place and to also

    12 know that the Chamber has issued such an authorisation.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I agree; I think you're

    14 right. And I actually thought, when they sought

    15 authorisation, that they would take photographs while

    16 we were here in court, just a few seconds before we

    17 would start with trial proceedings, so I, myself, was a

    18 bit taken by surprise. But we will duly notify you in

    19 the future if there any similar request is made by

    20 photographers.

    21 Let us now, before we resume with the

    22 witness, Mr. Katava, discuss briefly the question of

    23 the schedule for this week. We have noticed that once

    24 again, changes have been made in the list of

    25 witnesses. This is fine with us, except for the fact



  3. 1that we can't provide interpreters for Mr. Groenwald on

    2 Friday, so we would like to request Counsel Pavkovic to

    3 bring forward Mr. Groenwald to the 7th, tomorrow. We

    4 see from the letter filed by Counsel Pavkovic that

    5 Mr. Groenwald cannot testify today. I assume he can do

    6 so tomorrow, and tomorrow we will have interpreters

    7 available. No interpreters will be available on

    8 Friday, so therefore we have to bring him forward

    9 tomorrow.

    10 Counsel Pavkovic?

    11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

    12 The schedule for the week was not drawn up,

    13 really, to meet all the wishes of the Defence; it was

    14 dictated by the circumstances. Mr. Groenwald, who was

    15 scheduled for tomorrow, cannot, simply cannot make it

    16 tomorrow. He cannot come because he has some other

    17 business, and we had to accept to do whatever to meet

    18 his wishes and his availability, and he said that he

    19 would be available on Friday only.

    20 As for the schedule that we have now, the

    21 witness Kolk will not be coming. At the very last

    22 moment, when we finished the list, we received a cable

    23 that she did not want to testify, that she refused to

    24 testify. She was scheduled for the 7th of July; that

    25 is, on Wednesday, or rather tomorrow.



  4. 1These are the circumstances which made us

    2 make the schedule, draw up the schedule that you

    3 received today. I really do not know what else we can

    4 do. We hoped, and we really did our best, to go by the

    5 original schedule, but there were some circumstances

    6 beyond our power. We really insisted with the

    7 gentleman to come and appear before the Court tomorrow,

    8 and he said no, he would be available only on Friday.

    9 (Trial Chamber confers)

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: First of all, let me point

    11 out that the Tribunal, knowing that one or two people,

    12 Dutch-speaking people, would come today and tomorrow,

    13 have already made provision for three interpreters, and

    14 we will incur the necessary expenses, so they will be

    15 available whether or not we use them, whereas they are

    16 not available on Friday. On Friday there will be no

    17 interpretation from Dutch into English and

    18 Bosnian-Croatian, and vice versa. First point.

    19 Second point, we wonder what sort of business

    20 Mr. Groenwald is involved in. If he is summoned by the

    21 Court, he should come over tomorrow. Has he got any

    22 urgent business that he can't just cast aside for the

    23 sake of testifying here before the Court?

    24 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, Mr. Groenwald

    25 is the principal of a school, and we accepted the



  5. 1reasons he said. He said he could not really come; he

    2 would not be available. We wanted him to come when it

    3 would suit best the Defence in view of the kind of

    4 examination that we intended to conduct, but he said

    5 that he would be available on Friday only. But

    6 Mr. Groenwald does speak English, so perhaps this might

    7 be of some significance, of some importance, if we are

    8 discussing interpreters. Perhaps that is important.

    9 And as for the lady witness for whom Dutch

    10 interpreters have been provided for today and tomorrow,

    11 on the 1st of July, the time when we had drawn up the

    12 list, it was only after that we received a fax

    13 informing us that she was now refusing to testify. Her

    14 case is not all that important. But if Mr. Groenwald

    15 is willing to speak English, then we shall not be

    16 needing other interpreters on Friday.

    17 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, allow me to just

    18 make a remark. I hereby refer to the summary of

    19 Mr. Groenwald's testify. If he is to repeat in front

    20 of you what is supposed to be in his summary, there is

    21 no problem whatsoever. We do agree to what is being

    22 said in the summary of his testimony. Since his

    23 testimony is not going to be challenged, or hardly so,

    24 I think that he could testify in English. Because we

    25 know that Dutch people are very gifted for languages,



  6. 1and since he is going to be a short witness, it is

    2 going to be a short testimony, unchallenged testimony,

    3 he could easily testify in English.

    4 Allow me to make another observation

    5 regarding the following weeks, next week and the one

    6 after. We still don't know for sure whether some or

    7 all accused are going to testify or not. Today, since

    8 we have to prepare for such possibilities, we should

    9 know about it.

    10 I believe that the witnesses summoned by

    11 Counsel Pavkovic should have finished, if not by the

    12 end of this week, towards the middle of next week. We

    13 are going to have an ethnologist, a Norwegian

    14 ethnologist, next week; but after him or her, I think

    15 it is up to the accused to testify if they wish. But

    16 we should know today, as soon as we can.

    17 Thank you, Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So as for

    19 Mr. Groenwald, we could call him on Friday on the

    20 assumption that he will be speaking in English, and as

    21 the Prosecutor just pointed out, his testimony will

    22 most likely be brief.

    23 Let me now turn to the point made by the

    24 Prosecutor. We agree with the Prosecutor; I think it

    25 is high time for us to know the programme for the next



  7. 1two weeks. Are you now in a position to tell us if and

    2 when the accused will testify, will give evidence as

    3 witnesses, and which accused, and when, so that the

    4 Prosecutor may prepare?

    5 MR. PAVKOVIC: I do not know, Mr. President.

    6 Do you mean only my client, or does this question

    7 include all the accused? I do not know, really. As

    8 for my client, I will know only at the end of the week,

    9 after we have heard all the witnesses, because you see,

    10 we have now one witness cancelling her appearance, and

    11 we just do not know. I hope that all the witnesses

    12 that you have on your list will appear before the Court

    13 and give their evidence, and that I shall also be able

    14 to complete my part by the end of this week, unless, of

    15 course, the Prosecution has more questions than

    16 envisaged by us beforehand.

    17 I need to seize this opportunity to thank

    18 Mr. Terrier for being so understanding, and I assure

    19 him that Mr. Groenwald will testify as Mr. Terrier has

    20 pointed out: That is, succinctly, shortly, and, I

    21 believe, with regard to circumstances which do not

    22 raise any particular questions. Thank you very much.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I do understand

    24 your position with regard to your client, but I wonder

    25 whether the other Defence counsel are in a position to



  8. 1let us know whether or not they intend to call the

    2 accused. I'm thinking in particular of Counsel Radovic

    3 or Slokovic-Glumac. I wonder whether they have already

    4 decided whether or not to call the accused.

    5 Counsel Radovic.

    6 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, as for the two

    7 of us or, rather, our two clients, they will give

    8 evidence. Zoran Kupreskic will be a witness in his own

    9 case and in the case against his brother, so that both

    10 my colleague Slokovic-Glumac and I will be examining

    11 them. Mirjan Kupreskic, likewise he will testify both

    12 in his case and in the case against his brother, so

    13 that they will be examined by both of us, that is,

    14 Ms. Slokovic-Glumac and myself.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Ms. Slokovic-Glumac.

    16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I should

    17 merely like to add something with regard to the

    18 schedule. Of course, the Prosecution is fully entitled

    19 to know how we envisaged this last week of the Defence

    20 case. I presume that we shall have to call yet another

    21 witness, at least one witness more, in view of the list

    22 which was submitted to us during the Defence case,

    23 which we believe are of some weight.

    24 Now, we are referring to the list of HDZ

    25 members and a list that was submitted yesterday or,



  9. 1rather, the text which was tendered into evidence by

    2 the Prosecution, and that is the alleged list of HDZ

    3 members. So these are the two documents which were

    4 submitted at a later date in the course of the Defence

    5 case, and we shall have to call a witness. I hope that

    6 you will allow us not to prepare a summary, because we

    7 have to talk to that person who compiled those lists.

    8 We have not talked yet to this person. We have yet to

    9 ascertain that this person is quite conversant with all

    10 the details about how these lists were compiled, so

    11 that next week, after we acknowledge this testimony, we

    12 should like to call that witness, and we shall also

    13 have some more documents to tender into evidence. Only

    14 after that, we will call our clients to testify.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Do I understand

    16 you would be prepared to call Mirjan and Zoran

    17 Kupreskic as witnesses next week, probably the middle

    18 of next week, after calling the witness you just

    19 mentioned? All right.

    20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: There will be yet

    21 another problem, but I believe we shall be able to

    22 solve it towards the end of the week when we prepare

    23 some documents.

    24 We believe that some documents which have not

    25 yet been admitted into evidence, the Court deemed them



  10. 1not to be of vital importance, but we do think they are

    2 indeed of major importance, and we shall submit

    3 additional documentation to support our claim. We also

    4 believe that the testimony of Zoran and Mirjan will

    5 depend on whether the Court will admit these

    6 documents. Of course we shall provide our reasons for

    7 which we insist, once again, that those documents be

    8 admitted.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    10 Counsel Krajina.

    11 MR. KRAJINA: Good morning, Your Honours. We

    12 shall call our client, the accused Vlatko Kupreskic, to

    13 give evidence after the testimony of the first and the

    14 second accused. Thank you.

    15 (Trial Chamber confers)

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Susak.

    17 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, we have not yet

    18 decided on this matter, but as things stand now, I do

    19 not think that Drago Josipovic will be giving his

    20 evidence.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    22 What about Dragan Papic?

    23 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, we have not

    24 yet decided either, but we shall inform the Court in a

    25 few days' time.



  11. 1As I was informed yesterday during my visit

    2 at the detention unit, Dragan Papic has some health

    3 problems, health complaints. He is scheduled for a

    4 surgical intervention next week on his nose. He shall

    5 report to the hospital on the 14th, and the surgery

    6 would take place on the 15th of July.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much.

    8 Now, the last point, the point raised by

    9 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, I wonder whether the

    10 Prosecutor will be prepared to dispense with the

    11 statement by the witness Counsel Slokovic-Glumac is

    12 proposing to call next week.

    13 MR. TERRIER: We won't have any objection on

    14 this point. However, Your Honour, we would like to be

    15 informed of the documents that are going to be used,

    16 not of the arguments, as such, but that we should know

    17 which documents are going to be discussed.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We're grateful to

    19 the Prosecutor for accepting that the witness will be

    20 called without any document being handed over in

    21 advance to the Prosecutor. I think it's the

    22 Prosecutor's request that the documents should be shown

    23 to the Prosecutor in advance. Whether it is

    24 acceptable, I think it is quite sensible.

    25 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, would you be



  12. 1prepared to hand over to the Prosecutor those

    2 documents?

    3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I do not

    4 think we shall have any other documents. It is simply

    5 the person who was doing these lists. It is the

    6 Prosecution Exhibit 535 and the other one which was

    7 admitted yesterday. I do not know which number it

    8 was. I think it was P371.

    9 So we are calling the witness who compiled

    10 those lists, and we are calling this person to make an

    11 analysis of the lists and who will give us the reasons

    12 for which these lists were compiled, and if any

    13 documentation needs to be presented alongside these

    14 documents, we shall try to find those documents. But

    15 we shall also urge the witness to come to The Hague

    16 next week, and of course we shall hand over to the

    17 Prosecution all the relevant details, who that person

    18 is, where he or she works, since when, and so on and so

    19 forth so they can verify it all.

    20 (Trial Chamber confers)

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Before we resume

    22 with the testimony of Mr. Katava, on behalf of the

    23 Court, I would like to make two points.

    24 First of all, we understand that Mr. Dragan

    25 Papic will undergo surgery next week. I mean we assume



  13. 1that we will proceed even in his absence, because we

    2 can't give leave to be absent from court, but our trial

    3 proceedings will go on in his absence because his

    4 Defence counsel will be here. Then, of course, if he

    5 recovers, he could always give evidence towards the end

    6 of the month, before we end our proceedings on the 23rd

    7 of July. So this is the basic assumption.

    8 If there are no other matters to be

    9 discussed, we can resume with the testimony of

    10 Mr. Katava.

    11 Mr. Katava, thank you so much for being

    12 patient.

    13 Counsel Pavkovic, would you like to resume

    14 your examination in chief.

    15 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    16 WITNESS: MARINKO KATAVA (Resumed)

    17 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

    18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Katava.

    19 A. Good morning, Your Honours.

    20 Q. Are you rested?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. So we can proceed?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  14. 1A. No, I did not.

    2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, we should now

    3 go into n.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right, we'll go

    5 into private session.

    6 (Private session)

    7 (redacted)

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  23. 1(redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (Open session)

    5 MR. SUSAK:

    6 Q. Mr. Katava, yesterday you said that you had

    7 got to know Drago Josipovic only in 1997; is that

    8 correct?

    9 A. That is correct.

    10 Q. And that was when the indictment was

    11 confirmed and published. Do you know whether Drago

    12 Josipovic was active in political work in 1992, 1993?

    13 A. Well, he and politics, that just doesn't go

    14 together. I think that he is very naive politically.

    15 He worked in large company which employed over 3.000

    16 people. I think he didn't care about politics. But I

    17 didn't know him -- his wife was active politically, but

    18 I hope he will not be offended if I say that he knew

    19 nothing about politics.

    20 Q. Do you know whether he could have

    21 participated in the making of any military or civilian

    22 decisions in the Vitez municipality in the same period?

    23 A. No, there's no question of that. If he took

    24 part in any decision making, he would only have done so

    25 in the self-management bodies in the company in which



  24. 1he worked. That was all he was capable of.

    2 Q. General Blaskic, in his statement, mentioned

    3 a meeting which was held on the 15th of April, 1993, at

    4 22.30 hours, which was allegedly attended by Nikola

    5 Krizanovic, as far as I can remember, Pero Skopljak,

    6 Ivica Santic, and Tihomir Blaskic. Do you know

    7 anything about the content of that meeting? Because

    8 these witnesses were called but did not come to the

    9 Court, except for General Tihomir Blaskic.

    10 In the indictment, it says, among other

    11 things, that the accused -- and I'm only asking you

    12 about Drago Josipovic -- took part in military

    13 training, and that they armed themselves, evacuated

    14 civilian Bosnian Croats the night before the attack,

    15 organised HVO soldiers, weapons, ammunition, and other

    16 things. Can you say whether these are persons who

    17 could have carried out the planning and organising, as

    18 the indictment says, of the attack on Ahmici, if this

    19 was done systematically?

    20 A. No, I cannot answer this question.

    21 Q. Well, but professionally?

    22 A. Well, I knew this man for a very brief period

    23 of time under conditions which were not conducive to

    24 establishing friendships. I am not a psychologist by

    25 profession, and in the year during which I knew him



  25. 1before he came here to the detention unit, I cannot

    2 evaluate whether he could have done that or not.

    3 Q. You testified today, and yesterday, too, you

    4 said you were interviewed by the Prosecution on the

    5 16th of December, '97; is that correct?

    6 A. Yes, it is.

    7 Q. Did you testify today and yesterday in the

    8 same manner as in the statement that you made to the

    9 Prosecution?

    10 A. Well, these -- yes, my statements should be

    11 identical, 100 per cent. Both then and yesterday and

    12 today, I have been telling the truth.

    13 Q. But was it only on the 16th of April, 1993,

    14 that you were asked --

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. I don't mean the interview you gave on the

    17 16th of April, but about the 16th of April, 1993.

    18 A. Yes, only about that day.

    19 Q. Because you were also in the indictment,

    20 which was subsequently changed for a number of other

    21 accused, for a longer period of time, not only on that

    22 particular date, and that is why I asked you that. But

    23 just one more question.

    24 MR. SUSAK: Will you please show P371 to the

    25 witness.



  26. 1My learned friend Pavkovic wants to say

    2 something, and I call upon him to say it publicly.

    3 Q. Will you please look at page 74, Number 53.

    4 Have you found it?

    5 A. The number, you said?

    6 Q. 53.

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Now I'm going to ask you if you were an HDZ

    9 member.

    10 A. Yes -- no.

    11 Q. I mean page 74, Number 53.

    12 A. Yes, I've found my name.

    13 Q. Will you tell us, what is the title of that

    14 document?

    15 A. "Members of the Organised Resistance."

    16 Q. How is it that your name figures there if you

    17 are not a member of the HDZ, as you've told us?

    18 A. I do not think that this has anything to do

    19 with the HDZ, because from what I can see here, this

    20 list, only names of men are featured in this list, and

    21 there are a number of women who are members of the HDZ.

    22 Q. Are you saying that there were women who were

    23 HDZ members?

    24 A. Yes, and yet I do not see any female name on

    25 this list, particularly.



  27. 1Q. Now, how is it possible that in P353, where

    2 shares were distributed and where women were also

    3 mentioned as members of the HVO, and here they do not

    4 figure?

    5 A. Here, next to my name, my personal numbers

    6 are right and other data are correct, but I'm afraid

    7 that this is not my signature. Somebody else signed it

    8 in my name. This is not my signature. All I can--

    9 about -- I'm sorry, I didn't get your last question.

    10 What was it? It had to do something with shares.

    11 Q. Yes, this is a smaller, shorter list

    12 involving a lesser number of persons than the number of

    13 persons found in 353, where we also have women figuring

    14 as members of the HVO. Why is it that they are not on

    15 this list and they are on that other list?

    16 A. Well, I believe this was simply a matter of

    17 political attitude of Croats and Muslims who were at

    18 war. And in the end, the High Representative for

    19 Bosnia, Mr. Westendorp, decided that these papers,

    20 called certificates or state bonds, were distributed

    21 among people who took part in the war who were

    22 receiving no salaries, and they were also.

    23 Q. Excuse me --

    24 A. There were 9 billion claimed by the B and H,

    25 and he brought it down to 7 billion; I do not know



  28. 1whether they are dollars or marks. And then everybody

    2 claimed something, and this is a kind of state property

    3 which is still only on paper, and it was decided by him

    4 to distribute it on the basis of -- I don't know what

    5 kind of ratio; 75/25, or whatever per cent. This was,

    6 again, a decision of the High Representative, because

    7 representatives of Bosniaks and Muslims could not agree

    8 on the distribution, so he decided on this.

    9 Q. No, but my question was, why is this list of

    10 persons in '92 -- or rather '91 to '92 -- shorter than

    11 the list compiled subsequently? I did already mention

    12 the number of the exhibit which also shows that women

    13 were also members of the HVO. Why is it that in this

    14 list we have a lesser number of persons than in the

    15 shares list?

    16 A. Why is that list longer than this one? Well,

    17 you will have to ask the authors of that list. It is

    18 my guess that this paper, this list, includes only

    19 able-bodied men, and when it came to the list for

    20 shareholders, then they tried to cover as many people

    21 as possible. And it had nothing to do with able-bodied

    22 people of military age; it was simply distributed over

    23 a much wider number of people.

    24 Q. Thank you very much.

    25 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions.



  29. 1JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    2 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac also for

    3 cross-examination? Yes.

    4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    5 Mr. President. Only a couple of questions.

    6 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Katava. Only a couple of

    8 questions.

    9 You told us, with reference to the indictment

    10 which was confirmed by this Tribunal, that you learned

    11 of it in 1997; is that correct?

    12 A. I believe it was the end of 1996 or early

    13 1997.

    14 Q. But would you know, or could you be more

    15 accurate? Was it '96, or '97?

    16 A. I believe it was the end of 1996.

    17 Q. And did you take any steps after you learned

    18 about the indictment? Did you try to do something?

    19 A. Well, a certain period of time had to pass,

    20 because at first, only the indictment had been

    21 publicised, and one had to learn what was one charged

    22 for directly. It was a very hard time for me

    23 psychologically. After I had read all the counts of

    24 the indictment confirmed by this Tribunal, I was

    25 greatly relieved because I knew the things I was being



  30. 1charged for I had not done, and it was subsequently

    2 confirmed by the Tribunal that I was not the person

    3 present there.

    4 So a group of people on the accused under

    5 that indictment, that is seven of us, and I'm saying

    6 this, I'm using the word "fate"; I don't know how it

    7 will be translated or interpreted. Fate has brought us

    8 together, because the living conditions were extremely

    9 hard, and there is no need to explain to you that

    10 international arrest warrants had been issued, that

    11 everybody could arrest us, anybody who would bring us

    12 into custody, and both we or members of our families

    13 could perish in such an attempt.

    14 So during that period of time, which was very

    15 difficult, mentally, psychologically, for me, each and

    16 every one of us sought some remedy, sought some kind of

    17 therapy. Yet sometime in the former half of 1997, we

    18 decided to put an end to our hiding and to our

    19 silence. We knew that all roads led to this courtroom,

    20 that all our paths led to this courtroom, and that

    21 there was no other road but this one. We then decided

    22 to try to somehow raise the awareness of the world

    23 barons, as we call it in Bosnia, to somehow turn to the

    24 mighty of this world to help us to collect evidence, to

    25 appear before the Court of our own free will, and thus



  31. 1get rid of that burden.

    2 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Katava, just a moment. Could

    3 you please tell us what people are you talking about?

    4 It was you and other people who are on a different

    5 indictment, that is, people who are indicted here, is

    6 it?

    7 A. Yes, yes. With all of them -- well, not on a

    8 daily basis, but we spoke, we communicated every day,

    9 except for Vlado Santic, who was not in Vitez at the

    10 time. All the others were physically present in

    11 Vitez.

    12 Q. Right. And then you decided -- so it was the

    13 former half of 1997 you decided to take some steps to

    14 do something so as to surrender to the Tribunal in The

    15 Hague, so what did you do?

    16 A. We awaited Mr. Steiner's visit in Vitez. At

    17 the time, Mr. Steiner was the deputy of the High

    18 Representative for B and H, Mr. Carl Bildt, and we

    19 wanted to give to him, to present to him a short letter

    20 that we had written in which we were requesting, in his

    21 official capacity, begging him to try to ensure for us

    22 a fair and expeditious trial. And we insisted on this

    23 "fair and expeditious" because the proceedings against

    24 General Blaskic had already begun, and in view of the

    25 pace, of the very slow pace, we were afraid that we



  32. 1would be detained in custody for years.

    2 We were not afraid of anything else. We were

    3 not afraid of the final judgement; rest assured about

    4 that. That was my attitude and everybody's. We were

    5 not afraid of the final judgement, but we were afraid --

    6 we really were afraid of the time, of the cost in time,

    7 not to mention the health, not to mention all the ways

    8 in which it would affect our families and everybody

    9 else.

    10 And with this intent in mind, we wrote a

    11 letter of similar contents to Mrs. Albright, to

    12 Mr. Sergei Labrov, the then-president of the Security

    13 Council, members of the BH presidency, believing that

    14 we were still entitled, even if accused, that we were

    15 entitled to approach the collective president of the

    16 head of the State of which we were nationals to do

    17 whatever he could at the level of the State. We also

    18 wrote to the members of the municipal assembly in

    19 Vitez, who had been elected lawfully at the last

    20 elections, and who knew all seven of us. We asked that

    21 municipal body -- and that was the legislative body of

    22 the municipality. We wanted them to give their

    23 opinions, to pronounce themselves with regard to this

    24 indictment. And it was not our intention, but I also

    25 believe that we sent a letter to Mr. Cassese, who at



  33. 1that time was the President of the Tribunal at that

    2 time.

    3 So all these letters were written with only

    4 one goal in mind, "Please collect evidence, and after

    5 you've collected evidence, we shall come. It will

    6 suffice for you to call us by telephone or in any other

    7 way, and we shall come by ourselves. There is no need

    8 to arrest us, to follow us, to wound us, or do

    9 whatever. We're ready to come. We're offering to put

    10 up some guarantees, from money to depositing our

    11 passports or whatever, but we're about ready to come

    12 here." Perhaps we were naive, but that was how we

    13 thought and in what way our minds worked.

    14 Q. Right. At the time when you wrote those

    15 letters, and that was mid-1997, were you all in Vitez

    16 at the time, I mean people who signed those letters, or

    17 were they all in hiding? Where were you at the time?

    18 A. Well, I've already told you. Those who were

    19 in Vitez were in hiding. The only one who was not in

    20 Vitez was Mr. Vlado Santic. He was not living there at

    21 the time, no.

    22 Q. After you sent those letters, was there any

    23 feedback? How were those letters received? What was

    24 going on? Anything about your status?

    25 A. Well, no, there was not any direct feedback,



  34. 1but I believe those letters helped, even if indirectly,

    2 to set in motion -- I think it was done at a very high

    3 level -- to set in motion all the preparations for our

    4 voluntary surrender, and it happened on the 6th of

    5 October, '97. I think that those letters were the ones

    6 which paved the way to all the other events, and we

    7 know the rest.

    8 Q. After that, did you leave Vitez or did you

    9 stay in Vitez?

    10 A. That was done the latter half of '97, and the

    11 elections were forthcoming, and I thought it would be

    12 very dangerous to stay in Vitez because there would be

    13 many people coming in to observe those elections, and I

    14 was also guessing that some other people might be

    15 coming who might either be trying to come by some

    16 information or do certain other things.

    17 Q. So what did you do then?

    18 A. I left Vitez then and was not there for a

    19 while.

    20 Q. That is, you went into hiding. Do you know

    21 where Mirjan or Zoran Kupreskic were at the time?

    22 A. They had stayed behind. They were in Vitez.

    23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: All right. Thank you

    24 very much, Mr. Katava.

    25 Mr. Usher, will you please show these



  35. 1documents to the witness and, of course, to the

    2 Chamber. These are the letters Mr. Katava mentioned a

    3 moment ago and which were already adduced under D47/2.

    4 But at that time, they were not admitted because at

    5 that time the translations were missing, I mean English

    6 translations were missing. I should like to adduce

    7 them, to tender them into evidence now, and I should

    8 like to ask Mr. Katava to confirm their authenticity.

    9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for

    10 Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac, please. Microphone for Mrs.

    11 Slokovic-Glumac. We could not hear the beginning of

    12 the question. We're sorry.

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    14 Q. Do you know who was the author of this? Was

    15 it Mr. Zvonimir Cilic on the 11th of May, '97? This is

    16 the first letter, isn't it? Could they be placed on

    17 the ELMO, please?

    18 A. The first letter is addressed to -- yes, we

    19 should show it. This was the first letter. This was

    20 the first letter, and then a broader version, an

    21 expanded version, was written. Mr. Cilic read it in

    22 front of Mr. Steiner and handed it over to him.

    23 Let me just say that all the media in

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time covered this and

    25 transmitted the substance.



  36. 1Q. Other letters were written by you in

    2 cooperation with co-signatories?

    3 A. No, not quite. Let's say that we all drew

    4 them up, wrote them and initialled in full consensus.

    5 I think that means something. I repeat, Mr. Vlado

    6 Santic was not there. He was the only one who did not

    7 take part in this, even though we did communicate by

    8 telephone and discuss it. But this was the joint

    9 effort.

    10 Q. So you can confirm that all those letters

    11 were the product of your joint initiative and your

    12 joint effort at the time; is that so?

    13 A. Yes, it is.

    14 Q. Will you tell us just one more thing?

    15 Yesterday you said that you were sorry that you had not

    16 struck a friendship -- you had not stricken a

    17 friendship with Mr. Zoran Kupreskic earlier. Why did

    18 you say that?

    19 A. Yes, I really was sorry about that, because

    20 as a young man, when I was 17 or 18, I used to be a

    21 member of a folk dancing group in Vukovar, and I'm

    22 sorry that in perhaps 1977, when I moved into Vitez, I

    23 did not join such a nice cultural society, the

    24 protagonists of which were the brothers Kupreskic.

    25 That is what I had in mind.



  37. 1MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: All right. Thank you

    2 very much.

    3 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

    4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I should

    5 now like to adduce into evidence D47/2, that it be now

    6 admitted into evidence.

    7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D108/2.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: No, D48/2. You did say

    9 "48"?

    10 THE REGISTRAR: No, D108/2.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Oh, I see.

    12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: So this is in your

    13 numbering, is it?

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I apologise. D108.

    15 MR. BLAXILL: No objections, Your Honour.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection. Thank you.

    17 All right. It is admitted into evidence as D108/2.

    18 As you know, today we will have to adjourn at

    19 1.00. I would like to suggest that we go on until

    20 quarter to 11.00 and then we have a 30-minute break,

    21 only one break. So if you don't mind, Mr. Blaxill.

    22 MR. BLAXILL: Not at all, Your Honour.

    23 Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning.

    24 Mr. Katava, good morning to you, sir.

    25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.



  38. 1MR. BLAXILL: My name is Michael Blaxill, and

    2 I'm one of the prosecuting counsel in this case. As a

    3 result of your testimony yesterday and today, I do have

    4 a few questions I would like to ask you, sir.

    5 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

    6 Q. Just to clarify one point you mentioned

    7 yesterday, there was another Mr. Marinko Katava you

    8 referred to from Busovaca. You referred to that person

    9 being younger than yourself. Could you indicate how

    10 old that person was, say in 1993, to the best of your

    11 knowledge?

    12 A. Yesterday, perhaps you did not hear it from

    13 the interpreters. Yesterday, I said that that bloke,

    14 that person, was born when I was serving in the army,

    15 and that was 1971, so it could have been '71 or perhaps

    16 '72. Early '72 perhaps.

    17 Q. Thank you. Now, you worked in a large

    18 commercial enterprise, as a senior executive in

    19 Impregnacija, in 1992; is that correct, sir?

    20 A. '92, yes. Yes, yes.

    21 Q. Could you just indicate, sir, the local

    22 municipality authority that had the effective power and

    23 control in the Vitez and Lasva Valley region in late

    24 1992, that is, around October? Was that in fact the

    25 authority of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,



  39. 1was that the effective power?

    2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I'm afraid that you might

    3 draw me into political waters, and I really don't swim

    4 particularly well in that kind of waters, who was the

    5 authority. In 1990, I was a member of the municipal

    6 electoral commission. That was the first time we were

    7 having multi-party elections in Vitez. After those

    8 elections, there was another round of elections, and I

    9 was removed, I was removed from that commission, and I

    10 suppose my only sin was I was not a member of the HDZ.

    11 So as far as the politics is concerned, I was

    12 trying hard not to step into it with one foot, I mean

    13 let alone both my feet.

    14 Now, I know, of course, a lot of time has

    15 passed by, and one thinks back. Of course, the results

    16 of the multi-party elections were, as we know,

    17 unfavourable for Muslims, who were somewhat few in

    18 numbers. Croats should have had the majority in the

    19 parliament, and I don't know -- I really don't know

    20 what happened. But they set up their parallel bodies

    21 of authority and so on and so forth, and then it

    22 followed an undesirable course and ended as it ended,

    23 in what it shouldn't have ended.

    24 Q. Mr. Katava, I'm not trying to draw you into

    25 political opinions of any sort. What I'm asking you is



  40. 1as a businessman in a large company, you have to

    2 function presumably with things like permits and

    3 various things with local authorities. To the best of

    4 your recall, was it correct that it was that authority,

    5 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna or the HVO, was

    6 that the effective authority that you had to deal with

    7 and that people had to deal with in the course of

    8 business?

    9 A. The only person communicating with the

    10 authorities was the general manager. I could

    11 communicate only with at that time it was called the

    12 employment fund, when we needed some more employed or

    13 when things relative to social security had to be

    14 done. That was the former foundation for social

    15 insurance. And there were people who had been working

    16 there for years before that, and people that I

    17 communicated with, that I maintained contact with, were

    18 the same before and after the elections.

    19 Q. All right, Mr. Katava, we can move on from

    20 there.

    21 You say you were a member of the hunting

    22 society. Is that correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. How many members did the hunting society

    25 have, do you recall, in, let us say, late 1992?



  41. 1A. Around 300, I believe.

    2 Q. You made reference in your evidence yesterday

    3 that during the conflict with, I think, the Serb

    4 aggression as you referred to it, your members of your

    5 hunting group were, in fact, deployed in some way on a

    6 protective line; is that correct?

    7 A. Well, it was not the protective line, and

    8 there was no direct contact with -- I don't know what

    9 term you use here -- with Serbs. Let it be, shall we

    10 say, in quotation marks. I mean that was the

    11 terminology we used. There was no direct contact with

    12 them. But there is visibility from Vlasic where the

    13 Yugoslav forces were deployed, there is a very good

    14 view of this whole area or the picnic area that we used

    15 at Zabrdze and to Poljane. There was a very good view

    16 of this. So why did we go up there? To protect that

    17 part of the hunting grounds and to let the Serbs see

    18 that that area was covered, so as to try to dissuade

    19 them from any possible idea or attempt at an assault,

    20 perhaps an attempt to take over the Impregnacija

    21 plant. That was the idea. So we -- or perhaps, I

    22 mean, being as hunters, you know, hunters, that is a

    23 very good opportunity for us to spend seven days

    24 together, socialising, having a couple of drinks,

    25 perhaps having somebody say something, roasting some



  42. 1game, something like that.

    2 Q. Are you suggesting, Mr. Katava, this was some

    3 kind of social event, or were there to protect

    4 territory from the, quote, "Serb aggressors"?

    5 A. I don't understand what you mean by "social

    6 event". It was not a party, it was not a party, but we

    7 did have a good time there. But we also thought that

    8 we were useful.

    9 Q. Did you at any time become involved in any

    10 kind of active combat activity with Serb forces in that

    11 location?

    12 A. No, no, there was no contact.

    13 Q. It's true to say, however, that there was

    14 active combat between Serb forces and other forces,

    15 including predominantly Croat forces, in that region at

    16 that time; is that not so? There was a war going on,

    17 wasn't there, of sorts?

    18 A. Yes, yes, there was a war. However, that was

    19 away from our lines. That was -- we were overlooking

    20 the city, the town of Vitez, and the fighting was above

    21 Novi Travnik and on Mount Vlasic. That was the line.

    22 The position was called something like Kamenjar or

    23 Kamenjas where both units of both sides were located.

    24 Q. Mr. Katava, I presume you were armed at the

    25 time when you were doing that duty. Is that correct?



  43. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. I assume you were wearing your hunting kit or

    3 some kind of outdoor clothing, or was it possibly parts

    4 of uniforms, when you were performing those functions;

    5 is that right?

    6 A. No. I talked about the weapons I had

    7 yesterday. I had those weapons with me then, and I

    8 still have them at home today.

    9 Q. How many times did you go out to that area

    10 and perform this duty and whatever else took place?

    11 A. It was in the second half of 1992. I

    12 explained yesterday that every fourth week, we went for

    13 seven days to Zabrdze.

    14 Q. The members or presumably the numbers of a

    15 group that would go out there, how were they chosen and

    16 how were they notified of their turn to do that duty?

    17 A. Our head huntsman drew up a roster and he

    18 read it out once, and then all the hunters knew,

    19 because of that roster, when their turn was.

    20 Q. Are you aware as to whether the head hunter

    21 or any other member of that society had contact with

    22 HVO military people to coordinate what you did with

    23 whatever other defences were in place?

    24 A. I can't say with any certainty, but I assume

    25 they did.



  44. 1Q. We'll move on, if we may, sir, to the 20th of

    2 October, 1992.

    3 There was a certain event that's been often

    4 referred to here as the first conflict in Ahmici. Were

    5 you aware of that event in October 1992?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Thank you. I'll move forward, if I may, sir,

    8 to the 15th of April of 1993.

    9 You stated yesterday that as far as you were

    10 concerned, this was a normal working day; is that

    11 right?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. That you retired to bed after the 10.00 news?

    14 A. Approximately, yes.

    15 Q. And that you slept through until, I believe

    16 you said, about 05.30 hours on the 16th, when

    17 detonations awoke you; is that right?

    18 A. Right.

    19 Q. You made reference at that point where people

    20 said they got up, maybe washed, maybe dressed,

    21 whichever order. Do you recall what you did and about

    22 what time it was that you left your apartment to go

    23 outside the building?

    24 A. I can only repeat what I said yesterday. We

    25 were awakened in a hurry. The first thing I did was to



  45. 1look after my children -- they were crying and they

    2 were sleepy -- and to put them in the corridor where I

    3 felt they were safest. I don't remember whether I

    4 washed, but I certainly dressed, and then I went

    5 downstairs to the entrance of the building. All this

    6 could have taken 10 or 15 minutes, so it must have been

    7 between half past 5.00 and 6.00 or a quarter past

    8 6.00. However, I did not look at my watch. No one did

    9 then.

    10 Q. When you got outside your building, you

    11 encountered and/or were joined by a number of your

    12 neighbours, and all of those were Croat neighbours; is

    13 that correct?

    14 A. Yes, yes. In the beginning, as I said

    15 yesterday, Mr. Stojkovici, Mr. Stipo Krizanac, were

    16 already there when I arrived, and I think that Marijan

    17 Vinac was there. But there were seven or eight people

    18 whom I listed, and they were there. They came and

    19 went, and this went on for five, six or seven days.

    20 That was the time we spent at the entrance to the

    21 building.

    22 Q. If I can just stick at this point in time,

    23 sir, to the 16th of April of 1993, I believe you said

    24 yesterday that none of your Muslim or indeed Serb

    25 neighbours came out of their apartments, and yet a



  46. 1number of your Croat neighbours did. I believe you

    2 said that, sir. Is that correct?

    3 A. No, no, no. That's not what I said, that's

    4 not what I said. I will repeat what I said yesterday.

    5 Milisav Bacanovic, my neighbour, is a

    6 Montenegrin, my neighbour Stojkovici from A6 is a Serb,

    7 and they were, I think, there throughout this whole

    8 time with us. The Muslim neighbours, during that day,

    9 did come from time to time. I mentioned Mr. Salkic

    10 from the first floor. He came and offered us

    11 cigarettes, something to drink. Another neighbour,

    12 Mirsad, I mentioned his name yesterday.

    13 (redacted) would come. We went to have coffee

    14 with him.

    15 Q. When you were outside on the street, did you

    16 see any other persons, and in particular did you see

    17 any military personnel on the street?

    18 A. We were not in the street. We were at the

    19 entrance into the building, which has some stairs

    20 leading up and there's a small corridor, and we would

    21 run over the four big stairs and we would -- we were

    22 actually underneath the staircase for protection.

    23 Q. But presumably from the entranceway, there

    24 were times that you were able to look into the street;

    25 is that right?



  47. 1A. There is no street, there's just a side

    2 street passing by, and at that time there was not much

    3 traffic even on the normal days. All we could see was

    4 the big parking lot in front of this building and the

    5 other buildings which enclosed our view. There are

    6 four other buildings in front of ours and then the road

    7 is behind them, so we were unable to see what was going

    8 on. But as I said, that part of town was deserted. It

    9 was like a ghost town in those days. There were not

    10 even any stray dogs in the street because their

    11 instinct probably told them to hide.

    12 Q. So if I may encapsulate what you're saying,

    13 sir, are you telling us that you did not at any time

    14 see any soldiers outside your building during the 16th

    15 of April, 1993, or did you see any kind of soldiers

    16 outside your building during that day? That's, I hope,

    17 simple enough, sir.

    18 A. I think that on the 16th of April, if that is

    19 the day we are talking about, I think there was no

    20 movement. If you asked me about soldiers, I assume we

    21 are referring to units, no, there were no military

    22 units.

    23 Q. I will ask just one more question relating to

    24 that specific issue, Mr. Katava, and that is this: Did

    25 you see any single soldiers in the vicinity of your



  48. 1building that day, not military units but men in

    2 uniform carrying weapons? Did you see anybody like

    3 that?

    4 A. I think there were people who came and went.

    5 They were individuals, and it wasn't often, and there

    6 were not many of them. I don't know about that first

    7 day, whether anybody came or went, but in the following

    8 four or five days, there were people who came and went

    9 and who were in uniform. But they were always

    10 individuals.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I would now be

    12 asking to move into private session for a very short

    13 period of time. Bearing in mind it's a quarter to, it

    14 might be a good idea to recommence in that private

    15 session and take a break now.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We'll take a 30-minute

    17 break.

    18 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

    19 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

    20 (Private session)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

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  53. 1(redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (Open session)

    4 MR. BLAXILL:

    5 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, you stated that on the

    6 morning of the 16th -- and I've taken a couple of

    7 quotations from your testimony yesterday -- you said

    8 that you wanted to protect your neighbours. And then

    9 you said, " ... and what we had heard was really bad."

    10 And you also made the expression, " ... to forestall or

    11 prevent anyone's bad conduct."

    12 Now, what bad conduct were you expecting or

    13 afraid of that required to you protect your neighbours?

    14 A. I said yesterday that we wanted first of all

    15 to protect our families, our children, and I said that

    16 from what had already happened, we could not expect

    17 anything good. We wanted to protect them from

    18 something we did not know. We did not know what might

    19 happen the next minute, the next hour, the next day,

    20 and we didn't know that for the whole time, 350 days

    21 that the town was surrounded.

    22 Q. Mr. Katava, I'm asking you simply on the

    23 morning of the 16th of April, 1993, and you have stated

    24 in evidence here that you wanted to protect your

    25 neighbours. You also said that, quote, "What we had



  54. 1heard was really bad." Now, let's start with that:

    2 What had you heard that you say was, quote, "really

    3 bad"?

    4 A. The detonations.

    5 Q. So you're saying at this point in time, your

    6 concern was for your neighbours because there were

    7 shells falling nearby; is that right?

    8 A. Please, I would like to repeat, I was worried

    9 most of all about my family and only then about my

    10 neighbours and all the people who were there.

    11 Q. But if your concern was for the results of

    12 shells falling, presumably possibly falling on your

    13 building, presumably the interests of protection

    14 applied equally to all of you; what could you do to

    15 help your neighbours from falling shells?

    16 A. You are putting words in my mouth.

    17 Fortunately, shells were not falling on my building, or

    18 as far as I could see, around it. They were not

    19 falling. However, who could say that the next one

    20 would not fall on my van or into the entranceway or

    21 into my apartment or somebody else's apartment?

    22 Q. So in that way, in what manner did you think

    23 you could offer protection to your neighbours by

    24 visiting their apartments? How would that offer any

    25 assistance if a shell fell on that building?



  55. 1A. What am I supposed to answer to such a

    2 question? It is difficult even to think back and

    3 remember 1993. How can one protect anyone from shells

    4 falling? Well, there is no way. There is no

    5 protection from that. But how one can help, to perhaps

    6 help that the consequences are less fateful, what kind

    7 of help? Well, I just thought that we were there and

    8 that we perhaps could help somehow. How, I don't know,

    9 because nothing like that happened. But had something

    10 happened, had somebody been wounded or injured or

    11 whatever, I don't really know.

    12 Q. Subsequently, then, what prompted your

    13 comment -- and I believe I've noted this accurately

    14 from yesterday -- you wanted to forestall or prevent

    15 anyone's bad conduct? Let's move on from shelling.

    16 What did you mean by that?

    17 A. Well, you want me once again to use the noun

    18 "threat." But if the explosions were as horrible as

    19 that, if there were bursts of gunfire, then that

    20 particular noun can mean only something unknown. To

    21 protect: How? We could not really know who could be

    22 coming, with what intent.

    23 I'm not going back to history, but say you

    24 have an earthquake and the thieves see an opportunity

    25 to do their job, so in a situation such as it was,



  56. 1criminals -- and you find them everywhere; if nothing

    2 else, we would be preventing robberies, theft,

    3 burglaries, say. Theft, robbery, things like that.

    4 Whether we could prevent something else, I don't really

    5 know what, and with what, if you wish. But we were

    6 there, and we are talking about five, six, or seven men

    7 who are there.

    8 Q. I will put it to you, Mr. Katava, and you can

    9 agree or disagree as you see fit: Weren't you really

    10 concerned as to the potential conduct of HVO soldiers

    11 towards some of the occupants of your apartment block?

    12 Would that be fair to say, on my part, or not?

    13 A. In all that was unknown, in what I call the

    14 unknown, one part -- but perhaps only one part -- of

    15 that unknown might have been a threat of that kind.

    16 And why not the other way around? Why not the other

    17 way around, too? So the other way around is, again,

    18 only one part of that unknown.

    19 Q. Mr. Katava, do you recall what happened the

    20 following day, the 17th of April, 1993?

    21 A. No, I think it was similar to that one. As a

    22 matter of fact, all the days were -- every day was like

    23 the day before it or the day after it. I can't really

    24 single out that particular day for any reason.

    25 Q. Do you recall when, possibly, whether or not



  57. 1you saw any military people in the course of that day

    2 or perhaps the following day, the 18th of April?

    3 A. Just before we had the break, I said that on

    4 the 16th, that I think that on the 16th, nobody came or

    5 went. I'm referring to men in uniform; I'm referring

    6 to uniformed people. On the 17th or on the 18th, I

    7 think -- not, however, to my entrance, but I think to

    8 other entrances which we could see, I think that men

    9 came -- or rather entered and went out, and we assumed

    10 that they were the tenants, the residents of those

    11 particular entrances. And they were always

    12 individuals.

    13 Q. Can you think of any reason, sir, why the

    14 entrance to your apartments did not attract the

    15 attention of soldiers, whereas clearly you say they

    16 visited other entrances to apartments in the immediate

    17 vicinity?

    18 A. No, I don't know. I can't -- I just can't

    19 give any definite answer why was that.

    20 Q. I believe, sir, some days later you say that

    21 you were actually, yourself, mobilised into the HVO

    22 forces -- is that correct? -- somewhere after the

    23 20th? Would that be right?

    24 A. Yes, it would.

    25 Q. You've indicated to this Court that you knew



  58. 1Mr. Vlado Santic for a period of some 15 to 17 years.

    2 That is correct, sir?

    3 A. Yes, and I described the relations between us

    4 yesterday.

    5 Q. And you knew what his profession was, that he

    6 was a civilian police officer; did you later become

    7 aware of any change of profession, to military police

    8 or an HVO role played by Mr. Santic?

    9 A. We did not meet often.

    10 Q. So if I were to suggest to you, sir, that at

    11 April, 1993, Mr. Vlado Santic was a military police

    12 officer, would you able to say, "Yes, that is within my

    13 knowledge," or "No, I don't know that"?

    14 A. No, at that time, I did not know where he

    15 was.

    16 Q. Did you have any or much contact with

    17 Mr. Vlado Santic in late 1992, prior to the conflict

    18 breaking out?

    19 A. No. Let me repeat what I have already said.

    20 Whenever we met, and that was always by chance, we

    21 would greet one another in the street, and that was

    22 all. That was the kind of acquaintanceship between

    23 us. We never even had, say, coffee together in a cafe,

    24 or whatever. Nothing like it.

    25 Q. In the latter stages, when you might have



  59. 1encountered Mr. Santic on the street, did you ever see

    2 him wearing uniform?

    3 A. When? Later when?

    4 Q. Late 1992, or in the early months of 1993.

    5 A. No, I never saw him. If we are talking about

    6 the end of 1992, I did not see him. I did not see him

    7 one single time during the war. I was deployed at a

    8 completely different place, and I do not know where he

    9 was.

    10 MR. BLAXILL: If I may just have the Court's

    11 indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.

    12 I'm advised, Your Honour, that concludes my

    13 cross-examination. Thank you.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.

    15 Counsel Pavkovic?

    16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

    17 Re-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

    18 Q. Mr. Katava, you confirmed today that you were

    19 mobilised on the 20th of April, 1993, and a while ago

    20 you said that you were assigned to a completely

    21 different duty and that you did not know where Vlado

    22 Santic was. Could you tell us, where was it that you

    23 had been assigned to?

    24 A. Well, it seems that I am the only one here

    25 who is trying to be accurate. Where could I be? I



  60. 1said that I was assigned between the 20th and the 22nd,

    2 and I asked you to leave that particular period of

    3 time, time frame, not on the 20th but between the 20th

    4 and the 22nd. A courier from the Defence office served

    5 the paper, the assignment. I wouldn't call it the

    6 engineering unit, I would call it a unit made of a very

    7 small number of men who had the skill and the knowledge

    8 how to provide alternative routes to Nova Bila, that

    9 is, the alternative route to Busovaca, as the main road

    10 was under fire, let me put it that way, under gunfire,

    11 so that we were using some paths, some lanes, some

    12 forest paths which we filled, which we broadened, in

    13 order to provide conditions for the transport of the

    14 wounded in the direction of Novi Bila.

    15 Q. Mr. Katava, will you tell me, until that 20th

    16 or the 21st of April, '93, did you have an army

    17 uniform?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Thank you. At that time, did you have any

    20 personal army weapon?

    21 A. Army weapon, no.

    22 Q. Did you know how to use an automatic rifle?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. You were asked today about those detonations,

    25 about those explosions, and you told us something about



  61. 1that. Could you tell me if you had any advance

    2 knowledge of any explosion?

    3 A. No, I did not.

    4 Q. When you told us that you wanted to protect

    5 the neighbours in your building, did you mean all your

    6 neighbours, both of the Croat and Muslim ethnicity or

    7 any other ethnicity?

    8 A. I never distinguished people by religion or

    9 ethnic origin or the colour of their skin, and I wish

    10 all people would just distinguish people as people, as

    11 those who are human and those who are not, and if you

    12 ask me today, I would do the same thing.

    13 Q. You told us that you were afraid of something

    14 unknown and that that was why, at your entrance, you

    15 organised for this whole residential block a kind of

    16 security. You said, of course, that you wouldn't be

    17 able to prevent a shell falling or anticipate where it

    18 would fall, but could you say that the warnings -- that

    19 what you did for your neighbours were just some kind of

    20 instructions, some kind of advice as to how to protect

    21 themselves at that particular moment?

    22 A. How much we hoped to contribute to helping

    23 them, to protect them, we meant of course women and

    24 children, we were trying to tell them how to protect

    25 them to try to calm them down. How successful we were,



  62. 1of course, is very difficult to tell. But fortunately,

    2 I must say, fortunately there were no effects, there

    3 were no consequences; that is, these people, life and

    4 limbs of those people were not in danger.

    5 I don't know when that particular explosion

    6 happened. That was when, of course, all the window

    7 panes broke, and then we went around and looked for

    8 some plastic, for some clips or for whatever to protect

    9 those windows. We were going around and looking for

    10 paper clips to fix those things, so that was this

    11 natural help, and I think that it is just normal,

    12 natural, neighbourly assistance.

    13 Q. My learned friend for the Prosecution asked

    14 you if that threat from somebody unknown included also

    15 the threat coming from the HVO, and in your reply, you

    16 allowed such a possibility, of course if I understood

    17 you well. Will you tell me if one of such possible

    18 threats would also include threats from individuals,

    19 from supporters, or from groups related in some way to

    20 the BH army; was that possible?

    21 A. Well, yes, of course, that is what I said,

    22 and that was only part of that unknown, and also the

    23 reverse could also play a part in that unknown.

    24 So I am repeating. At my entrance with 12

    25 apartments, if you are forcing me to distinguish



  63. 1people, to give out people, there were four Croats in

    2 those 12 apartments. But of course we could have had

    3 the reverse situation, that a Croat also could have

    4 been under threat. That was also an unknown then.

    5 Q. So if I'm understanding you properly, you

    6 thought that all the people were vulnerable, that the

    7 threat could be coming from anyone, from robbers,

    8 burglars, and so on and so forth. Is that so?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. Could we go, just

    11 for a moment, into private session, because I just

    12 remembered the names of some witnesses who are

    13 protected.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    15 (Private session)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  64. 1(redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (Open session)

    25 (The witness entered court)



  65. 1JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Mrs. Veronique

    2 Fonville, good morning. Could you please make the

    3 solemn declaration as an interpreter? First the

    4 interpreter and then the witness.

    5 THE INTERPRETER: I solemnly declare that I

    6 will do so faithfully, independently, impartially, and

    7 with full respect for the duty of confidentiality.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, this is as an

    9 interpreter.

    10 And now the solemn declaration of Mrs. Hume,

    11 Johanna Hume, as a witness.

    12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    14 truth.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    16 seated, and I will ask Counsel Pavkovic to start with

    17 the examination in chief.

    18 MR. PAVKOVIC: This is in open session. I'm

    19 just checking.

    20 May we begin?

    21 WITNESS: JOHANNA HUME

    22 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

    23 Q. Good morning, madam. We talked, or rather

    24 you talked to our legal assistant, Mr. Vrdoljak, and he

    25 explained to you the reasons for which we wanted to ask



  66. 1you to come here and give your evidence; is that

    2 correct?

    3 A. Yes, it is.

    4 Q. I apologise. I have to introduce myself.

    5 I'm Petar Pavkovic, and I am the Defence counsel for

    6 Vladimir Santic, and I will ask you some questions

    7 today about subjects which you have already been

    8 informed about. You know what we shall like to hear

    9 from you.

    10 A. Yes, that's fine.

    11 Q. I hope we shall be able to overcome

    12 linguistic difficulties and others. If you have any

    13 question or if you have any suggestions, of course, I

    14 shall be quite happy to help you.

    15 So madam, please, will you tell us your

    16 name? Tell us your name, your full name, the date of

    17 your birth, and where do you live, the place of

    18 residence.

    19 A. My name is Johanna Hume, and -- shall I

    20 answer in English or in Dutch?

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: In English, if you have a

    22 command of English. Yes.

    23 A. Okay. I'm born the 23rd of April, 1960, in

    24 Amsterdam, and I live in Amsterdam now at this day.

    25 It's difficult for me, because I hear the



  67. 1Croatian language and I understand it, and I have to

    2 listen to this lady who translates it.

    3 (Trial Chamber confers)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Would you tune in to

    5 channel 4?

    6 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's channel 4. Yes, it's

    7 correct.

    8 MR. PAVKOVIC:

    9 Q. Can you hear English now? Can you hear

    10 English?

    11 A. Yes, I can, but I also understand the

    12 Croatian language.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Even better.

    14 MR. PAVKOVIC:

    15 Q. In other words, we realise you can understand

    16 us all perfectly, and we can all understand you. So

    17 will you please give us, once again, your full name,

    18 the year of your birth, and your address?

    19 A. My full name is Johanna Henriette Hume, and

    20 I'm born the 23rd of April, 1960, in Amsterdam, and I

    21 live now Amsteldijk 97 in Amsterdam.

    22 Q. Thank you. This perhaps is a personal

    23 question, but I must ask you because it is important

    24 for me. Are you married?

    25 A. No, I'm not married.



  68. 1Q. Were you?

    2 A. Yes, I've been married.

    3 Q. So you are divorced, are you?

    4 A. Yes, I'm divorced. I was --

    5 Q. Did you change your name after your divorce?

    6 A. Yes, I did.

    7 Q. What was your former surname?

    8 A. The name of my husband, you mean?

    9 Q. Right.

    10 A. That was Dasovic.

    11 Q. Now, could you tell me if you have any

    12 children?

    13 A. Yes, I have two children, two daughters

    14 called Ana and Branka Dasovic.

    15 Q. In 1992 or, rather, 1993, how old were your

    16 children?

    17 A. They were --

    18 Q. Six or seven years ago.

    19 A. [Inaudible]... was about nine, ten years old.

    20 Q. At that time, did your older daughter, that

    21 is, the elder daughter Ana, go to school? I'm

    22 referring to the '92/'93 school year.

    23 A. Yes. Both my daughters went to the same

    24 school.

    25 Q. Do you remember perhaps if, on a certain



  69. 1occasion, your daughter told you something, and you

    2 found it important, that a new pupil had joined her

    3 class?

    4 A. In December 1992, a new child, a girl, came

    5 to Ana's class, and she was from Bosnia. She came from

    6 Bosnia and she joined the class, and I told the teacher

    7 that if there were any problems with the language, it

    8 was possible for me to translate from Bosnian to Dutch.

    9 Q. Could you tell me what happened then and what

    10 the name of the little girl was?

    11 A. I went to the school, and my daughter Ana

    12 said, "This is the girl," and she told me her name was

    13 Ema Alilovic.

    14 Q. After that, did you become acquainted with

    15 her father?

    16 A. Yes. I told her, in the hall of the school,

    17 in the Croatian language, "I'm the mother of Ana, and

    18 if your parents need any help and they don't speak the

    19 language, I can help you." She told her parents that,

    20 and after that I -- the same afternoon, her mother came

    21 to my house and invited me to come and meet the whole

    22 family, and that included her father.

    23 Q. Could you tell us what her mother's name was?

    24 A. The name of the mother is Dragica Krizanac.

    25 Q. Her name is Dragica Krizanac now, but it was



  70. 1Dragica Alilovic then; is that correct?

    2 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.

    3 Q. After that, did you visit the Alilovic

    4 family?

    5 A. Yes, several times. Almost every week, I

    6 came there.

    7 Q. Very well. We are at the beginning. I will

    8 ask you about that later on.

    9 Could you tell me, when did you visit the

    10 Alilovic family for the first time? Was it in late

    11 1992, early 1993; can you remember at all? Do you

    12 recall a certain day or a certain occasion, apart from

    13 the time you came to meet the family, as you told us

    14 just a while ago?

    15 A. I met -- I went to the home the first time in

    16 December 1992. I don't know the exact date, but it

    17 must be between Sinterklaas, that's the 5th of

    18 December, and Christmas.

    19 Q. Today, madam, you told us that you understand

    20 the Croatian language or the Bosnian language. Did you

    21 talk to them in the Bosnian language then?

    22 A. Yes. To the parents, to Stipo and Dragica, I

    23 only spoke Croatian, because he didn't understand one

    24 word of Dutch; maybe "thank you" or "hello", but that

    25 was all. So I spoke only Croatian with the parents,



  71. 1Dragica and Stipo.

    2 Q. Do you remember how old their children were

    3 then and how many children they had?

    4 A. They have two children, and Ema was the same

    5 age as my oldest daughter, about ten years old. She's

    6 half a year younger than my daughter. Her birthday is

    7 in June, and my daughter's birthday is in December.

    8 And they have a son, Petar, and Petar's birthday I

    9 don't know, but he was seven years younger than his

    10 sister.

    11 Q. When you talk about Ema, you're talking about

    12 Emilija, in fact?

    13 A. Emilija, but her name in Holland was Ema

    14 because "Emilija" was too -- she said she wished to

    15 prefer her name is Ema, and because one of our queens

    16 was called Ema, she was very proud to use that name.

    17 Q. If I understood you correctly, you lived in

    18 the vicinity, you were neighbours.

    19 A. Yes. We weren't direct neighbours, but they

    20 lived now two minutes walking, at the most, from my

    21 house.

    22 Q. So your children went to the same school?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Can you tell me what the teacher's name was

    25 at that time?



  72. 1A. Christine. She was called Christine.

    2 Q. Can you tell us who the principal of the

    3 school was at that time? What was the name of the

    4 gentleman who was the school principal then?

    5 A. The school principal was called Wout

    6 Groenwald or Groenwoud. I don't remember exactly, but

    7 it is Groenwald or Groenwoud, and his first name is

    8 Wout.

    9 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell me a

    10 little about the customs prevailing today -- and I

    11 presume they did then, in 1992, 1993 -- because you

    12 yourself are also a teacher. Did parents, especially

    13 parents of young children, have to bring their children

    14 to school and come to collect them after the end of the

    15 day?

    16 A. I don't understand the question. Can you

    17 repeat it, please?

    18 Q. My question is the following: Do parents

    19 have to accompany their children to school and come to

    20 collect them when classes are over?

    21 A. Yes. That's common in Holland, that you

    22 bring your children to school and that you collect them

    23 in the afternoon, and then you bring them back for the

    24 afternoon school, and then you collect them at 15 past

    25 3.00. And -- well, there are some mothers who don't



  73. 1bring their children, but I brought my children every

    2 day to school, and I would collect them at the end of

    3 the day, till they were 10, 11 years old.

    4 Q. If we recall that time now, 1992, 1993, can

    5 you tell us whether the Alilovic family also did this

    6 and accompanied their children to school and came to

    7 collect them?

    8 A. Yes. Most times, the father, Stipo Alilovic,

    9 came to school. He waited at the fence. There was the

    10 street, with a fence, and he waited there and smoked a

    11 cigarette, and he waited there for his children till

    12 they came out. He never entered the school. There

    13 were also mothers who entered the school, but he never

    14 did. He always waited outside.

    15 Q. So you used to see him?

    16 A. Almost every day, yeah, but also in the

    17 neighbourhood.

    18 Q. So you used to see him, and you would

    19 probably talk to him when you met him in front of the

    20 school?

    21 A. Yes, I did. We didn't have big conversations

    22 every day, but I always greeted him and said, "How are

    23 you," and ...

    24 Q. If I understood you correctly, you used to

    25 see him at his house as well?



  74. 1A. Yes, I did. Sometimes the children played

    2 together, and we went there for coffee or for ...

    3 Q. As far as we know so far, their son, Petar,

    4 the son of Stipo and Dragica Alilovic, was young at

    5 that time. He went to kindergarten. Do you know

    6 anything about who took him there and when, and what is

    7 usually done in respect of this?

    8 A. Well, the younger son, I know at the

    9 mornings, the oldest -- Ema took him for school. In

    10 Holland, it's the custom that children go to school

    11 from four years old. So when they are four years old,

    12 they go to school. But at the same school, that's

    13 called a primary school, there's also the

    14 peuterspeelzaal. I don't know the English word, but

    15 it's called "peuterspeelzaal." It's a play school for

    16 little children, and it's in the same building. He

    17 went there first, for a year, until he was four years

    18 old, and then he went to the first class of primary

    19 school.

    20 Q. You say that he was taken by someone; who

    21 took him, as far as you know?

    22 A. In the mornings his older sister took him, so

    23 Ema took him, and in the afternoons, his father or his

    24 mother would collect him. But mostly Stipo collected

    25 the children.



  75. 1Q. You knew from your conversations with him

    2 that Stipo and Dragica Alilovic had arrived as refugees

    3 from Bosnia?

    4 A. I know, yes.

    5 Q. You told us today that you offered to help

    6 them, and that you did?

    7 A. Yes, I did.

    8 Q. Did you help them put their documents in

    9 order, the documents concerning their refugee status?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Can we go on, or would you like to take a

    12 break? How do you feel? You can tell us.

    13 A. I am all right now. I just have to

    14 concentrate.

    15 Q. So you helped the Alilovic family in their

    16 everyday worries and concerns about their refugee

    17 status; can you please tell us something about this?

    18 A. Well, they didn't have status when I met them

    19 for the first time. They were without status. They

    20 had to have been several months in a refugee camp, in

    21 "Asielzoekerscentrum," we called it, here in the

    22 Netherlands. But they have got a ROA house, that's a

    23 house where refugees without status can live for

    24 several time, so they don't have to be in a camp,

    25 because it's very stressing.



  76. 1And when I met him, the whole family didn't

    2 have status; but in May, 1993, the family got status

    3 and went together to the vreemdelingenpolitie, a

    4 foreign police, the -- I don't know how it's called,

    5 vreemdelingenpolitie, in the Bijlmermeer in Amsterdam,

    6 and there the whole family got their "A" status. "A"

    7 is the best status you can get here as a refugee. Then

    8 you can get your family here, and you have the same

    9 rights as Dutch people.

    10 Q. You said that in May 1993, they achieved this

    11 refugee status; up to that time, did they have any

    12 documents to prove their identity? Did they have any

    13 documents at all, as far as you know?

    14 A. They had -- when you get your "A" status, you

    15 all get a document where it's printed on -- I don't

    16 know how it looks like, but -- and you can ask, if you

    17 don't have your own passport, you can ask here for a

    18 vluchtelingenpaspoort, a refugee passport. I don't

    19 know where they have -- I know they had some kind of

    20 identification, but I don't know exactly what. They

    21 all had papers from the foreign police.

    22 Q. During this time, while someone is waiting to

    23 get their refugee status, regardless of what you said

    24 about seeing Stipo almost every day, was it possible to

    25 leave your place of residence, or did you have to go to



  77. 1the police and report the to police on a regular basis

    2 to show that you were here?

    3 A. You can leave your place of residence; that's

    4 possible. You can't leave the country, because you

    5 don't have a passport. When Stipo and Dragica asked

    6 for permission to stay here, they had to give their

    7 passports to the police. They can travel in our

    8 country freely. When they lived in the refugee camp,

    9 the Asielzoekerscentrum, you have to go there every

    10 week and get -- you get a stamp. But when you live in

    11 a ROA house, that isn't necessary.

    12 Q. Can we say that up to May 1993, Stipo

    13 Alilovic did not have a passport? He could not have

    14 left the Netherlands?

    15 A. No, never, he could have not -- no, that's

    16 not possible.

    17 Q. Thank you. Would you tell me, madam, do you

    18 know that Stipo Alilovic has died?

    19 A. I know.

    20 Q. Do you know when Stipo Alilovic died?

    21 A. 25 October, 1995. I saw him about one hour

    22 after he died.

    23 Q. From what you have told us, it is evident

    24 that you were on good terms with the Alilovic family

    25 and that you were, one might say, friends. I assume



  78. 1that you knew about many of their little secrets, as

    2 people usually find these out when they associate as

    3 friends. Can you tell me, did the Alilovic family

    4 during that time have money?

    5 A. Money? No.

    6 Q. How did they live?

    7 A. They didn't have money. They -- they came

    8 from a refugee camp, and they lived in a ROA house.

    9 That means that the central organisation for refugees

    10 paid the rent and paid for electricity and gas, and

    11 they received, I think, monthly, the whole family,

    12 800 guilders to buy their clothes, to buy their food,

    13 to buy the necessary things. And when they hadn't

    14 status, they didn't receive child support. We know --

    15 child support, "kinderbijslag" it's called in Dutch.

    16 But when you have no status, you don't -- you don't

    17 have a right for that money. They received it not

    18 until they had their "A" status. So it was -- yeah,

    19 bad for them.

    20 Q. So they could meet only their minimum needs?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And when associating with the Alilovic

    23 family, you were probably able to discuss -- and I

    24 assume you did -- these things, so you probably were

    25 able to learn the attitude Stipo Alilovic had toward



  79. 1the war that was then going on in Bosnia. Do you

    2 remember having such conversations with him?

    3 A. Well, we talked about the war in Bosnia,

    4 because a lot of family of both Dragica and Stipo still

    5 lived there. He hated the war. He didn't want to talk

    6 about it very much, because he always said, "I don't

    7 understand why there is war there, why our neighbours

    8 have to be like that to each other." And he told me

    9 why he was here in the Netherlands, because he received

    10 a letter from the Croatian army that he had to appear

    11 for his military duties, and at that moment he

    12 escaped. He went to his sister in Austria and from

    13 there to Holland, because he didn't want to stay

    14 there.

    15 Q. Thank you. Madam, can you describe in

    16 greater detail the physical appearance of Stipo

    17 Alilovic?

    18 A. Well, the physical appearance, many children

    19 in our neighbourhood were terribly afraid of him

    20 because he had a big, black beard, a big moustache, and

    21 he looked a bit -- and he had hair on his nose. It

    22 grew from his nose. You don't see it often, but he had

    23 it. He looked a bit -- yeah, angry, but he wasn't.

    24 But many children, when they saw him, they -- they

    25 run.



  80. 1MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I would now

    2 like to ask that the witness be shown a document, C10.

    3 That is a document with a photograph of Stipo Alilovic,

    4 so that the witness can look at it and say whether it

    5 is Stipo Alilovic.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Could you tell us what that

    7 exhibit number is? Because C10 doesn't match with a

    8 photograph.

    9 MR. PAVKOVIC: We have C10 and C11. C10 is a

    10 card, a bank card.

    11 Q. Madam, I would now like to ask you to look at

    12 this photograph and to tell us whether this photograph

    13 shows Stipo Alilovic, the person we have been talking

    14 about today.

    15 A. Yes. This is him.

    16 Q. Are you absolutely sure this is him?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Thank you.

    19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. That's enough.

    20 Q. Madam, from what we have said today, may we

    21 conclude that not a day or two had passed without your

    22 seeing Stipo Alilovic from the time of his arrival in

    23 the Netherlands up to his death in 1995?

    24 A. Yes. From the time -- it's not completely

    25 correct; I saw him from the day he came in Amsterdam



  81. 1till the day of his death. I didn't meet the family

    2 when they were in the refugee camp. I met them in

    3 December '92, when they came to Amsterdam.

    4 Q. Very well.

    5 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I would now

    6 like to go into private session, because I would like

    7 to ask some questions referring to protected

    8 witnesses.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We'll move into

    10 private session.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Private session, please.

    12 Thank you.

    13 (Private session)

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    22 (Open session)

    23 MR. TERRIER:

    24 Q. I shall repeat my question, madam. Could you

    25 tell us how you came to learn Croatian?



  86. 1A. I married on the 6th of a August, 1980, with

    2 a man who is called Dasovic. He lived in Zdencina, a

    3 small village 20 kilometres from Zagreb. I met him

    4 here in Holland, and we married. His parents didn't

    5 speak one word of Dutch or German or English, or

    6 anybody in that village spoke another language, so I

    7 thought, when I have to communicate with the people who

    8 are now my family and the friends of my husband, I have

    9 to learn Croatian language.

    10 So I went here to -- in Amsterdam you have

    11 the Volksuniversiteit, and there I took two years of

    12 course in Croatian language. That was after the first

    13 time I went there. And I spoke with my parents-in-law

    14 and with friends of my husband's also with a

    15 dictionary.

    16 I learn quickly languages. That's my

    17 advantage.

    18 Q. I don't doubt that. How long did you live in

    19 Croatia, as such? Could you tell us that?

    20 A. I never lived in Croatia. I went there

    21 for -- we lived in Amsterdam. My former husband still

    22 lives in Amsterdam. But we went there for holidays.

    23 We went there for six weeks every summer to visit the

    24 family of my husband: his father, his mother, sister.

    25 Q. Madam, do you have any special skills as to



  87. 1the foreign police, as to bylaws on cross-border

    2 traffic, on travels by refugees, that sort of thing?

    3 A. Yes, I do. I don't know in detail every

    4 single rule, but I know that -- I know about status,

    5 and I know a "C," and "E," and "A," and -- I know how

    6 it works. And I was married to a foreigner, too, so --

    7 and he did have -- yeah, it's called "C," because he

    8 was married to a Dutch woman. And I -- yeah, I worked

    9 with refugees. I gave Dutch as second language to

    10 refugees who lived in Bussum. So I also heard there

    11 from the rules that exist.

    12 Q. In the Netherlands, as is the case in other

    13 European countries, do you have associations which are

    14 designed to help refugees?

    15 A. Yes. In Holland, Vluchtelingenwerk.

    16 Q. Well, are you a member of an association or

    17 several associations?

    18 A. [Inaudible] You get help from there. When

    19 you are a refugee, you go there and you ask help, but

    20 you can be a member of any kind of ...

    21 Q. I shall repeat my question in a different

    22 way; I don't think we understood each other.

    23 Speaking about these associations helping

    24 refugees, to do so they use nationals, don't they,

    25 Dutch people?



  88. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. Were you employed by one such association?

    3 A. I haven't been.

    4 Q. Let's speak about the children and their

    5 schooling.

    6 You told us that in the Netherlands, it is

    7 customary for one or either of the parents to go and

    8 collect the children from school. However, from what

    9 you told us, it seems as though children went on their

    10 own to school in the morning, by themselves.

    11 A. No, not every child is going alone, but when

    12 they are small, small, until six, eight, ten years old,

    13 it's also depending on the distance you live from the

    14 school. Amsterdam is a big, busy city, and you can

    15 take your children along when they are small. So you

    16 have to bring your children every day to school, but

    17 there are children who are brought by an older sister

    18 or older brother who is also visiting the same school.

    19 Q. Well, let us speak about the Alilovic

    20 family. I believe I heard earlier on from you that as

    21 far as you could remember, Ema would take her small

    22 brother to the school in the morning.

    23 A. Yes, sometimes she took her brother in the

    24 morning when her mother wasn't ready to go, or the

    25 father.



  89. 1Q. So it would happen that the children would go

    2 by themselves to school?

    3 A. Sometimes, yes, but it's different between me

    4 and the family Alilovic, because when I pointed out the

    5 school of our children was here -- yeah, I don't know

    6 how to point it out. Here they lived. They lived

    7 about 20, 30 metres from the school, and I lived a few

    8 streets further.

    9 Q. So would the children sometimes go home

    10 alone, by themselves?

    11 A. No, never, only when Mr. Alilovic got ill

    12 later on, they sometimes went alone.

    13 Q. Is there any special reason why the children

    14 could go alone to school but couldn't come back by

    15 themselves? Was there any special reason for that?

    16 A. No, but -- they sometimes went alone to

    17 school, and not every day. Most of the times, the

    18 mother or the father brought, and only when one of the

    19 parents couldn't come, they went alone. I don't know

    20 the exact reason. I also -- I know that Mr. Alilovic

    21 liked to get his children from school, and also she

    22 liked to get them from school, because they could talk

    23 with the neighbours and talk with the teacher, and it

    24 was not only necessary but also social.

    25 Q. I can understand that perfectly. However,



  90. 1this is my question: You said that it would sometimes

    2 happen that the two children would go to school by

    3 themselves without being accompanied. Hence my

    4 question. Would it also sometimes happen that they

    5 would go home from school by themselves?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. So it would happen that parents, either the

    8 mother or the father, did not get their children from

    9 school, that that would sometimes happen; is that so?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. You also testified that sometimes the mother

    12 would go and collect the kids from school, so you

    13 cannot say that you would see the father of those

    14 children every day?

    15 A. Well, the mother -- Dragica Alilovic, she

    16 went to school. When they got their status, our

    17 status, in Amsterdam you can follow school, so she went

    18 to school from that time on to learn the Dutch

    19 language. But he didn't want that because he wasn't

    20 interested in that, and he stayed at the house with the

    21 children.

    22 Q. Let's speak about the period going from

    23 December '92 to April '93, so this is the period we are

    24 interested in. At that time, do you remember that it

    25 was the mother who would sometimes pick up the kids



  91. 1from school?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Let's speak about the financial means of that

    4 family, as you assessed them. Between December of '92

    5 and April of '93, did either or both of the parents

    6 work?

    7 A. You cannot work here when you are waiting for

    8 your status.

    9 Q. I'll put the question differently. Did one

    10 or the other of the parents, for that period going from

    11 December '92 to April '93, did either of them have any

    12 professional activity of kinds?

    13 A. No, they didn't.

    14 Q. Mrs. Krizanac recognised and admitted that at

    15 the time, not that she would have a professional

    16 activity because she was sort of not allowed to, but

    17 she would work in a restaurant. Did you know that

    18 information?

    19 A. She worked in a restaurant in Bloemendaal.

    20 That's a village near Amsterdam. She worked there in

    21 the kitchen, but that is not a regular job. That was

    22 illegal. We call it black, black work, because she

    23 didn't pay taxes. She wasn't allowed to work, and the

    24 family was really in big financial trouble. And I know

    25 also the people where she worked, I know them.



  92. 1Q. Did you find her that job?

    2 A. No, I didn't. I don't know exactly who,

    3 but --

    4 Q. It is just by chance that you happened to

    5 know both people?

    6 A. Yeah. The owner of that restaurant is a

    7 friend of my former husband.

    8 Q. Why didn't you mention that activity when

    9 such questions were raised?

    10 A. Because it wasn't allowed. When it's public

    11 that she worked without permission, she would have to

    12 pay it back, still now when they find out that she

    13 worked illegal. How should I say it?

    14 Q. Well, I'm sure I speak on behalf of the

    15 Judges when I tell you that this Tribunal is not going

    16 to bother Mrs. Krizanac. She's not going to be

    17 disturbed at all.

    18 Did Mr. Alilovic have another type of work of

    19 the same kind?

    20 A. Only later he did, when he got his papers.

    21 August of '93, he played in a movie in Holland.

    22 Q. Did the Alilovic family have a car?

    23 A. They bought it in June or July, right after

    24 they had status. They got their status in May, and

    25 shortly after that they bought I think an Opel, Opel



  93. 1Kadett, a green one. I drove it when Mr. Alilovic was

    2 seen in the hospital.

    3 Q. You mean that prior to April 1993, they

    4 didn't have a car?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Did Mr. or Mrs. Alilovic speak to you about

    7 what had happened in April '93 in Central Bosnia, in

    8 the Lasva River Valley? Did you hear about this from

    9 them?

    10 A. No. Yeah, we saw it on television, what had

    11 happened.

    12 Q. Did Mr. or Mrs. Alilovic comment on what had

    13 happened?

    14 A. She asked me -- he asked me, "Did you see

    15 it?" "Yes, I did." And he said, "That's the place

    16 where I was born. That's the surroundings where I was

    17 born."

    18 Q. Did you know one of his cousins? I think he

    19 was Tomislav Alilovic.

    20 A. He lives in Holland; is that correct? No. I

    21 think that he has family here in Holland, but I don't

    22 remember they are from her side or his side, I don't

    23 know, and I don't know the exact names.

    24 Q. Do you know a cousin of his named Tomislav;

    25 do you know him personally?



  94. 1A. I can't recall. I'm sorry.

    2 Q. I'm just asking you if you know him

    3 personally or not. That's easy to answer. Tomislav.

    4 A. I know people called Tomislav, but not in

    5 that --

    6 Q. Well, I mentioned Tomislav Alilovic, cousin

    7 of Stipo, and he too was born in Ahmici in Central

    8 Bosnia, and that doesn't ring any bell?

    9 A. No. I know the family of Stipo, but I don't

    10 know their names, I don't recall their names. I know

    11 there lived a nephew in Germany, but I don't know their

    12 names. I saw them at the funeral of Mr. Alilovic.

    13 Then I saw them all, but I don't know which one is

    14 Tomislav or which one has another name.

    15 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, madam.

    16 I have no further questions of this witness.

    17 Thank you.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    20 do not have any more questions. Thank you.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: I have a very minor question,

    22 madam. I wonder whether you could clarify a matter as

    23 a proper question of curiosity.

    24 It struck me that this document, the Dutch

    25 document relating to your appointment as a secondary



  95. 1school teacher, has the date of the 6th of July, '93.

    2 However, it relates to an appointment to be made as

    3 from the 16th of April, '93. How is it that it was

    4 taken almost three months after the actual appointment?

    5 A. Yeah, that's common in Holland, because you

    6 get an appointment or you get your -- you are employed

    7 as a teacher but the school is a part of the City

    8 Council, but the administrative handlings, they come

    9 always later. That's very normal in school.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, thank you. Thank

    11 you so much.

    12 All right. I think there are no other

    13 questions. Thank you, madam, for testifying today,

    14 thank you so much indeed. You may now be released.

    15 (The witness withdrew)

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: In five minutes, we will

    17 adjourn. But before doing so, may I ask Counsel

    18 Pavkovic about the list of witnesses for tomorrow?

    19 Just one witness, only one?

    20 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, Mr. President, tomorrow

    21 we have only Andjelko Alilovic scheduled because a

    22 witness refused and said she did not want to give

    23 evidence here. We learned about that on the 1st of

    24 this month, after we had submitted the timetable for

    25 our witnesses, and that is why we had to go through it



  96. 1and change it once again.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: I was wondering whether one

    3 of the witnesses for the 8th of July could also be

    4 ready for tomorrow, just in case we get through with

    5 Mr. Vidovic, so that we can have a reserve witness, one

    6 of the three, for Thursday, if they are around in The

    7 Hague.

    8 MR. PAVKOVIC: They will be arriving tonight

    9 sometime after 9.00, or perhaps 10.00 tonight. Of

    10 course, we had to take note of the expenses, and so the

    11 witnesses arrive on the eve of. They will be coming as

    12 envisaged by the original schedule, so they will be

    13 here late tonight, and I'm really not sure whether they

    14 would be up to appearing in the court tomorrow. But of

    15 course we shall bear that in mind, and we shall be

    16 seeing them tonight, and if any one of them feels

    17 really strong, well enough to appear tomorrow, then of

    18 course we shall inform you about it.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Well, let's make

    20 an effort.

    21 So we will adjourn now until tomorrow at

    22 9.00.

    23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    24 12.59 p.m., to be reconvened on

    25 Wednesday, the 7th day of July,



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