2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-16-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and
9 Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Radovic?
11 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, just before Your
12 Honours entered the courtroom, the accused were
13 photographed. We had not been informed who was the
14 person who photographed them, for what reasons, and who
15 authorised taking those photographs. We think it was
16 completely unauthorised, or somebody should have
17 informed us what it was all about, and I believe that
18 our authorisation should have also been sought, or at
19 least our opinion should have been sought on this
20 photography. So we should like to propose that the
21 film be seized, that the photographer be intercepted
22 and his film be seized.
23 (Trial Chamber deliberates)
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, it is for
25 the Trial Chamber to decide whether or not to authorise
1taking of photographs, and today these photographers
2 were indeed authorised by the Trial Chamber. This is a
3 public trial, and we normally give the authorisation to
4 photographers to take a few pictures, normally before
5 the beginning of a trial.
6 All right, so I think -- yes, Counsel
8 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I accept your
9 explanation that it is the Chamber which authorises
10 such photography, but I believe we should be notified
11 in advance that this is going to take place and to also
12 know that the Chamber has issued such an authorisation.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I agree; I think you're
14 right. And I actually thought, when they sought
15 authorisation, that they would take photographs while
16 we were here in court, just a few seconds before we
17 would start with trial proceedings, so I, myself, was a
18 bit taken by surprise. But we will duly notify you in
19 the future if there any similar request is made by
21 Let us now, before we resume with the
22 witness, Mr. Katava, discuss briefly the question of
23 the schedule for this week. We have noticed that once
24 again, changes have been made in the list of
25 witnesses. This is fine with us, except for the fact
1that we can't provide interpreters for Mr. Groenwald on
2 Friday, so we would like to request Counsel Pavkovic to
3 bring forward Mr. Groenwald to the 7th, tomorrow. We
4 see from the letter filed by Counsel Pavkovic that
5 Mr. Groenwald cannot testify today. I assume he can do
6 so tomorrow, and tomorrow we will have interpreters
7 available. No interpreters will be available on
8 Friday, so therefore we have to bring him forward
10 Counsel Pavkovic?
11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 The schedule for the week was not drawn up,
13 really, to meet all the wishes of the Defence; it was
14 dictated by the circumstances. Mr. Groenwald, who was
15 scheduled for tomorrow, cannot, simply cannot make it
16 tomorrow. He cannot come because he has some other
17 business, and we had to accept to do whatever to meet
18 his wishes and his availability, and he said that he
19 would be available on Friday only.
20 As for the schedule that we have now, the
21 witness Kolk will not be coming. At the very last
22 moment, when we finished the list, we received a cable
23 that she did not want to testify, that she refused to
24 testify. She was scheduled for the 7th of July; that
25 is, on Wednesday, or rather tomorrow.
1These are the circumstances which made us
2 make the schedule, draw up the schedule that you
3 received today. I really do not know what else we can
4 do. We hoped, and we really did our best, to go by the
5 original schedule, but there were some circumstances
6 beyond our power. We really insisted with the
7 gentleman to come and appear before the Court tomorrow,
8 and he said no, he would be available only on Friday.
9 (Trial Chamber confers)
10 JUDGE CASSESE: First of all, let me point
11 out that the Tribunal, knowing that one or two people,
12 Dutch-speaking people, would come today and tomorrow,
13 have already made provision for three interpreters, and
14 we will incur the necessary expenses, so they will be
15 available whether or not we use them, whereas they are
16 not available on Friday. On Friday there will be no
17 interpretation from Dutch into English and
18 Bosnian-Croatian, and vice versa. First point.
19 Second point, we wonder what sort of business
20 Mr. Groenwald is involved in. If he is summoned by the
21 Court, he should come over tomorrow. Has he got any
22 urgent business that he can't just cast aside for the
23 sake of testifying here before the Court?
24 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, Mr. Groenwald
25 is the principal of a school, and we accepted the
1reasons he said. He said he could not really come; he
2 would not be available. We wanted him to come when it
3 would suit best the Defence in view of the kind of
4 examination that we intended to conduct, but he said
5 that he would be available on Friday only. But
6 Mr. Groenwald does speak English, so perhaps this might
7 be of some significance, of some importance, if we are
8 discussing interpreters. Perhaps that is important.
9 And as for the lady witness for whom Dutch
10 interpreters have been provided for today and tomorrow,
11 on the 1st of July, the time when we had drawn up the
12 list, it was only after that we received a fax
13 informing us that she was now refusing to testify. Her
14 case is not all that important. But if Mr. Groenwald
15 is willing to speak English, then we shall not be
16 needing other interpreters on Friday.
17 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, allow me to just
18 make a remark. I hereby refer to the summary of
19 Mr. Groenwald's testify. If he is to repeat in front
20 of you what is supposed to be in his summary, there is
21 no problem whatsoever. We do agree to what is being
22 said in the summary of his testimony. Since his
23 testimony is not going to be challenged, or hardly so,
24 I think that he could testify in English. Because we
25 know that Dutch people are very gifted for languages,
1and since he is going to be a short witness, it is
2 going to be a short testimony, unchallenged testimony,
3 he could easily testify in English.
4 Allow me to make another observation
5 regarding the following weeks, next week and the one
6 after. We still don't know for sure whether some or
7 all accused are going to testify or not. Today, since
8 we have to prepare for such possibilities, we should
9 know about it.
10 I believe that the witnesses summoned by
11 Counsel Pavkovic should have finished, if not by the
12 end of this week, towards the middle of next week. We
13 are going to have an ethnologist, a Norwegian
14 ethnologist, next week; but after him or her, I think
15 it is up to the accused to testify if they wish. But
16 we should know today, as soon as we can.
17 Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So as for
19 Mr. Groenwald, we could call him on Friday on the
20 assumption that he will be speaking in English, and as
21 the Prosecutor just pointed out, his testimony will
22 most likely be brief.
23 Let me now turn to the point made by the
24 Prosecutor. We agree with the Prosecutor; I think it
25 is high time for us to know the programme for the next
1two weeks. Are you now in a position to tell us if and
2 when the accused will testify, will give evidence as
3 witnesses, and which accused, and when, so that the
4 Prosecutor may prepare?
5 MR. PAVKOVIC: I do not know, Mr. President.
6 Do you mean only my client, or does this question
7 include all the accused? I do not know, really. As
8 for my client, I will know only at the end of the week,
9 after we have heard all the witnesses, because you see,
10 we have now one witness cancelling her appearance, and
11 we just do not know. I hope that all the witnesses
12 that you have on your list will appear before the Court
13 and give their evidence, and that I shall also be able
14 to complete my part by the end of this week, unless, of
15 course, the Prosecution has more questions than
16 envisaged by us beforehand.
17 I need to seize this opportunity to thank
18 Mr. Terrier for being so understanding, and I assure
19 him that Mr. Groenwald will testify as Mr. Terrier has
20 pointed out: That is, succinctly, shortly, and, I
21 believe, with regard to circumstances which do not
22 raise any particular questions. Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I do understand
24 your position with regard to your client, but I wonder
25 whether the other Defence counsel are in a position to
1let us know whether or not they intend to call the
2 accused. I'm thinking in particular of Counsel Radovic
3 or Slokovic-Glumac. I wonder whether they have already
4 decided whether or not to call the accused.
5 Counsel Radovic.
6 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, as for the two
7 of us or, rather, our two clients, they will give
8 evidence. Zoran Kupreskic will be a witness in his own
9 case and in the case against his brother, so that both
10 my colleague Slokovic-Glumac and I will be examining
11 them. Mirjan Kupreskic, likewise he will testify both
12 in his case and in the case against his brother, so
13 that they will be examined by both of us, that is,
14 Ms. Slokovic-Glumac and myself.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Ms. Slokovic-Glumac.
16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I should
17 merely like to add something with regard to the
18 schedule. Of course, the Prosecution is fully entitled
19 to know how we envisaged this last week of the Defence
20 case. I presume that we shall have to call yet another
21 witness, at least one witness more, in view of the list
22 which was submitted to us during the Defence case,
23 which we believe are of some weight.
24 Now, we are referring to the list of HDZ
25 members and a list that was submitted yesterday or,
1rather, the text which was tendered into evidence by
2 the Prosecution, and that is the alleged list of HDZ
3 members. So these are the two documents which were
4 submitted at a later date in the course of the Defence
5 case, and we shall have to call a witness. I hope that
6 you will allow us not to prepare a summary, because we
7 have to talk to that person who compiled those lists.
8 We have not talked yet to this person. We have yet to
9 ascertain that this person is quite conversant with all
10 the details about how these lists were compiled, so
11 that next week, after we acknowledge this testimony, we
12 should like to call that witness, and we shall also
13 have some more documents to tender into evidence. Only
14 after that, we will call our clients to testify.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Do I understand
16 you would be prepared to call Mirjan and Zoran
17 Kupreskic as witnesses next week, probably the middle
18 of next week, after calling the witness you just
19 mentioned? All right.
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: There will be yet
21 another problem, but I believe we shall be able to
22 solve it towards the end of the week when we prepare
23 some documents.
24 We believe that some documents which have not
25 yet been admitted into evidence, the Court deemed them
1not to be of vital importance, but we do think they are
2 indeed of major importance, and we shall submit
3 additional documentation to support our claim. We also
4 believe that the testimony of Zoran and Mirjan will
5 depend on whether the Court will admit these
6 documents. Of course we shall provide our reasons for
7 which we insist, once again, that those documents be
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
10 Counsel Krajina.
11 MR. KRAJINA: Good morning, Your Honours. We
12 shall call our client, the accused Vlatko Kupreskic, to
13 give evidence after the testimony of the first and the
14 second accused. Thank you.
15 (Trial Chamber confers)
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Susak.
17 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, we have not yet
18 decided on this matter, but as things stand now, I do
19 not think that Drago Josipovic will be giving his
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
22 What about Dragan Papic?
23 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, we have not
24 yet decided either, but we shall inform the Court in a
25 few days' time.
1As I was informed yesterday during my visit
2 at the detention unit, Dragan Papic has some health
3 problems, health complaints. He is scheduled for a
4 surgical intervention next week on his nose. He shall
5 report to the hospital on the 14th, and the surgery
6 would take place on the 15th of July.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much.
8 Now, the last point, the point raised by
9 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, I wonder whether the
10 Prosecutor will be prepared to dispense with the
11 statement by the witness Counsel Slokovic-Glumac is
12 proposing to call next week.
13 MR. TERRIER: We won't have any objection on
14 this point. However, Your Honour, we would like to be
15 informed of the documents that are going to be used,
16 not of the arguments, as such, but that we should know
17 which documents are going to be discussed.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We're grateful to
19 the Prosecutor for accepting that the witness will be
20 called without any document being handed over in
21 advance to the Prosecutor. I think it's the
22 Prosecutor's request that the documents should be shown
23 to the Prosecutor in advance. Whether it is
24 acceptable, I think it is quite sensible.
25 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, would you be
1prepared to hand over to the Prosecutor those
3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I do not
4 think we shall have any other documents. It is simply
5 the person who was doing these lists. It is the
6 Prosecution Exhibit 535 and the other one which was
7 admitted yesterday. I do not know which number it
8 was. I think it was P371.
9 So we are calling the witness who compiled
10 those lists, and we are calling this person to make an
11 analysis of the lists and who will give us the reasons
12 for which these lists were compiled, and if any
13 documentation needs to be presented alongside these
14 documents, we shall try to find those documents. But
15 we shall also urge the witness to come to The Hague
16 next week, and of course we shall hand over to the
17 Prosecution all the relevant details, who that person
18 is, where he or she works, since when, and so on and so
19 forth so they can verify it all.
20 (Trial Chamber confers)
21 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Before we resume
22 with the testimony of Mr. Katava, on behalf of the
23 Court, I would like to make two points.
24 First of all, we understand that Mr. Dragan
25 Papic will undergo surgery next week. I mean we assume
1that we will proceed even in his absence, because we
2 can't give leave to be absent from court, but our trial
3 proceedings will go on in his absence because his
4 Defence counsel will be here. Then, of course, if he
5 recovers, he could always give evidence towards the end
6 of the month, before we end our proceedings on the 23rd
7 of July. So this is the basic assumption.
8 If there are no other matters to be
9 discussed, we can resume with the testimony of
10 Mr. Katava.
11 Mr. Katava, thank you so much for being
13 Counsel Pavkovic, would you like to resume
14 your examination in chief.
15 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 WITNESS: MARINKO KATAVA (Resumed)
17 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Katava.
19 A. Good morning, Your Honours.
20 Q. Are you rested?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So we can proceed?
23 A. Yes.
1A. No, I did not.
2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, we should now
3 go into n.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right, we'll go
5 into private session.
6 (Private session)
13 page 10573 redacted – private session
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4 (Open session)
5 MR. SUSAK:
6 Q. Mr. Katava, yesterday you said that you had
7 got to know Drago Josipovic only in 1997; is that
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. And that was when the indictment was
11 confirmed and published. Do you know whether Drago
12 Josipovic was active in political work in 1992, 1993?
13 A. Well, he and politics, that just doesn't go
14 together. I think that he is very naive politically.
15 He worked in large company which employed over 3.000
16 people. I think he didn't care about politics. But I
17 didn't know him -- his wife was active politically, but
18 I hope he will not be offended if I say that he knew
19 nothing about politics.
20 Q. Do you know whether he could have
21 participated in the making of any military or civilian
22 decisions in the Vitez municipality in the same period?
23 A. No, there's no question of that. If he took
24 part in any decision making, he would only have done so
25 in the self-management bodies in the company in which
1he worked. That was all he was capable of.
2 Q. General Blaskic, in his statement, mentioned
3 a meeting which was held on the 15th of April, 1993, at
4 22.30 hours, which was allegedly attended by Nikola
5 Krizanovic, as far as I can remember, Pero Skopljak,
6 Ivica Santic, and Tihomir Blaskic. Do you know
7 anything about the content of that meeting? Because
8 these witnesses were called but did not come to the
9 Court, except for General Tihomir Blaskic.
10 In the indictment, it says, among other
11 things, that the accused -- and I'm only asking you
12 about Drago Josipovic -- took part in military
13 training, and that they armed themselves, evacuated
14 civilian Bosnian Croats the night before the attack,
15 organised HVO soldiers, weapons, ammunition, and other
16 things. Can you say whether these are persons who
17 could have carried out the planning and organising, as
18 the indictment says, of the attack on Ahmici, if this
19 was done systematically?
20 A. No, I cannot answer this question.
21 Q. Well, but professionally?
22 A. Well, I knew this man for a very brief period
23 of time under conditions which were not conducive to
24 establishing friendships. I am not a psychologist by
25 profession, and in the year during which I knew him
1before he came here to the detention unit, I cannot
2 evaluate whether he could have done that or not.
3 Q. You testified today, and yesterday, too, you
4 said you were interviewed by the Prosecution on the
5 16th of December, '97; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Did you testify today and yesterday in the
8 same manner as in the statement that you made to the
10 A. Well, these -- yes, my statements should be
11 identical, 100 per cent. Both then and yesterday and
12 today, I have been telling the truth.
13 Q. But was it only on the 16th of April, 1993,
14 that you were asked --
15 A. No.
16 Q. I don't mean the interview you gave on the
17 16th of April, but about the 16th of April, 1993.
18 A. Yes, only about that day.
19 Q. Because you were also in the indictment,
20 which was subsequently changed for a number of other
21 accused, for a longer period of time, not only on that
22 particular date, and that is why I asked you that. But
23 just one more question.
24 MR. SUSAK: Will you please show P371 to the
1My learned friend Pavkovic wants to say
2 something, and I call upon him to say it publicly.
3 Q. Will you please look at page 74, Number 53.
4 Have you found it?
5 A. The number, you said?
6 Q. 53.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now I'm going to ask you if you were an HDZ
10 A. Yes -- no.
11 Q. I mean page 74, Number 53.
12 A. Yes, I've found my name.
13 Q. Will you tell us, what is the title of that
15 A. "Members of the Organised Resistance."
16 Q. How is it that your name figures there if you
17 are not a member of the HDZ, as you've told us?
18 A. I do not think that this has anything to do
19 with the HDZ, because from what I can see here, this
20 list, only names of men are featured in this list, and
21 there are a number of women who are members of the HDZ.
22 Q. Are you saying that there were women who were
23 HDZ members?
24 A. Yes, and yet I do not see any female name on
25 this list, particularly.
1Q. Now, how is it possible that in P353, where
2 shares were distributed and where women were also
3 mentioned as members of the HVO, and here they do not
5 A. Here, next to my name, my personal numbers
6 are right and other data are correct, but I'm afraid
7 that this is not my signature. Somebody else signed it
8 in my name. This is not my signature. All I can--
9 about -- I'm sorry, I didn't get your last question.
10 What was it? It had to do something with shares.
11 Q. Yes, this is a smaller, shorter list
12 involving a lesser number of persons than the number of
13 persons found in 353, where we also have women figuring
14 as members of the HVO. Why is it that they are not on
15 this list and they are on that other list?
16 A. Well, I believe this was simply a matter of
17 political attitude of Croats and Muslims who were at
18 war. And in the end, the High Representative for
19 Bosnia, Mr. Westendorp, decided that these papers,
20 called certificates or state bonds, were distributed
21 among people who took part in the war who were
22 receiving no salaries, and they were also.
23 Q. Excuse me --
24 A. There were 9 billion claimed by the B and H,
25 and he brought it down to 7 billion; I do not know
1whether they are dollars or marks. And then everybody
2 claimed something, and this is a kind of state property
3 which is still only on paper, and it was decided by him
4 to distribute it on the basis of -- I don't know what
5 kind of ratio; 75/25, or whatever per cent. This was,
6 again, a decision of the High Representative, because
7 representatives of Bosniaks and Muslims could not agree
8 on the distribution, so he decided on this.
9 Q. No, but my question was, why is this list of
10 persons in '92 -- or rather '91 to '92 -- shorter than
11 the list compiled subsequently? I did already mention
12 the number of the exhibit which also shows that women
13 were also members of the HVO. Why is it that in this
14 list we have a lesser number of persons than in the
15 shares list?
16 A. Why is that list longer than this one? Well,
17 you will have to ask the authors of that list. It is
18 my guess that this paper, this list, includes only
19 able-bodied men, and when it came to the list for
20 shareholders, then they tried to cover as many people
21 as possible. And it had nothing to do with able-bodied
22 people of military age; it was simply distributed over
23 a much wider number of people.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions.
1JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
2 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac also for
3 cross-examination? Yes.
4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,
5 Mr. President. Only a couple of questions.
6 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Katava. Only a couple of
9 You told us, with reference to the indictment
10 which was confirmed by this Tribunal, that you learned
11 of it in 1997; is that correct?
12 A. I believe it was the end of 1996 or early
14 Q. But would you know, or could you be more
15 accurate? Was it '96, or '97?
16 A. I believe it was the end of 1996.
17 Q. And did you take any steps after you learned
18 about the indictment? Did you try to do something?
19 A. Well, a certain period of time had to pass,
20 because at first, only the indictment had been
21 publicised, and one had to learn what was one charged
22 for directly. It was a very hard time for me
23 psychologically. After I had read all the counts of
24 the indictment confirmed by this Tribunal, I was
25 greatly relieved because I knew the things I was being
1charged for I had not done, and it was subsequently
2 confirmed by the Tribunal that I was not the person
3 present there.
4 So a group of people on the accused under
5 that indictment, that is seven of us, and I'm saying
6 this, I'm using the word "fate"; I don't know how it
7 will be translated or interpreted. Fate has brought us
8 together, because the living conditions were extremely
9 hard, and there is no need to explain to you that
10 international arrest warrants had been issued, that
11 everybody could arrest us, anybody who would bring us
12 into custody, and both we or members of our families
13 could perish in such an attempt.
14 So during that period of time, which was very
15 difficult, mentally, psychologically, for me, each and
16 every one of us sought some remedy, sought some kind of
17 therapy. Yet sometime in the former half of 1997, we
18 decided to put an end to our hiding and to our
19 silence. We knew that all roads led to this courtroom,
20 that all our paths led to this courtroom, and that
21 there was no other road but this one. We then decided
22 to try to somehow raise the awareness of the world
23 barons, as we call it in Bosnia, to somehow turn to the
24 mighty of this world to help us to collect evidence, to
25 appear before the Court of our own free will, and thus
1get rid of that burden.
2 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Katava, just a moment. Could
3 you please tell us what people are you talking about?
4 It was you and other people who are on a different
5 indictment, that is, people who are indicted here, is
7 A. Yes, yes. With all of them -- well, not on a
8 daily basis, but we spoke, we communicated every day,
9 except for Vlado Santic, who was not in Vitez at the
10 time. All the others were physically present in
12 Q. Right. And then you decided -- so it was the
13 former half of 1997 you decided to take some steps to
14 do something so as to surrender to the Tribunal in The
15 Hague, so what did you do?
16 A. We awaited Mr. Steiner's visit in Vitez. At
17 the time, Mr. Steiner was the deputy of the High
18 Representative for B and H, Mr. Carl Bildt, and we
19 wanted to give to him, to present to him a short letter
20 that we had written in which we were requesting, in his
21 official capacity, begging him to try to ensure for us
22 a fair and expeditious trial. And we insisted on this
23 "fair and expeditious" because the proceedings against
24 General Blaskic had already begun, and in view of the
25 pace, of the very slow pace, we were afraid that we
1would be detained in custody for years.
2 We were not afraid of anything else. We were
3 not afraid of the final judgement; rest assured about
4 that. That was my attitude and everybody's. We were
5 not afraid of the final judgement, but we were afraid --
6 we really were afraid of the time, of the cost in time,
7 not to mention the health, not to mention all the ways
8 in which it would affect our families and everybody
10 And with this intent in mind, we wrote a
11 letter of similar contents to Mrs. Albright, to
12 Mr. Sergei Labrov, the then-president of the Security
13 Council, members of the BH presidency, believing that
14 we were still entitled, even if accused, that we were
15 entitled to approach the collective president of the
16 head of the State of which we were nationals to do
17 whatever he could at the level of the State. We also
18 wrote to the members of the municipal assembly in
19 Vitez, who had been elected lawfully at the last
20 elections, and who knew all seven of us. We asked that
21 municipal body -- and that was the legislative body of
22 the municipality. We wanted them to give their
23 opinions, to pronounce themselves with regard to this
24 indictment. And it was not our intention, but I also
25 believe that we sent a letter to Mr. Cassese, who at
1that time was the President of the Tribunal at that
3 So all these letters were written with only
4 one goal in mind, "Please collect evidence, and after
5 you've collected evidence, we shall come. It will
6 suffice for you to call us by telephone or in any other
7 way, and we shall come by ourselves. There is no need
8 to arrest us, to follow us, to wound us, or do
9 whatever. We're ready to come. We're offering to put
10 up some guarantees, from money to depositing our
11 passports or whatever, but we're about ready to come
12 here." Perhaps we were naive, but that was how we
13 thought and in what way our minds worked.
14 Q. Right. At the time when you wrote those
15 letters, and that was mid-1997, were you all in Vitez
16 at the time, I mean people who signed those letters, or
17 were they all in hiding? Where were you at the time?
18 A. Well, I've already told you. Those who were
19 in Vitez were in hiding. The only one who was not in
20 Vitez was Mr. Vlado Santic. He was not living there at
21 the time, no.
22 Q. After you sent those letters, was there any
23 feedback? How were those letters received? What was
24 going on? Anything about your status?
25 A. Well, no, there was not any direct feedback,
1but I believe those letters helped, even if indirectly,
2 to set in motion -- I think it was done at a very high
3 level -- to set in motion all the preparations for our
4 voluntary surrender, and it happened on the 6th of
5 October, '97. I think that those letters were the ones
6 which paved the way to all the other events, and we
7 know the rest.
8 Q. After that, did you leave Vitez or did you
9 stay in Vitez?
10 A. That was done the latter half of '97, and the
11 elections were forthcoming, and I thought it would be
12 very dangerous to stay in Vitez because there would be
13 many people coming in to observe those elections, and I
14 was also guessing that some other people might be
15 coming who might either be trying to come by some
16 information or do certain other things.
17 Q. So what did you do then?
18 A. I left Vitez then and was not there for a
20 Q. That is, you went into hiding. Do you know
21 where Mirjan or Zoran Kupreskic were at the time?
22 A. They had stayed behind. They were in Vitez.
23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: All right. Thank you
24 very much, Mr. Katava.
25 Mr. Usher, will you please show these
1documents to the witness and, of course, to the
2 Chamber. These are the letters Mr. Katava mentioned a
3 moment ago and which were already adduced under D47/2.
4 But at that time, they were not admitted because at
5 that time the translations were missing, I mean English
6 translations were missing. I should like to adduce
7 them, to tender them into evidence now, and I should
8 like to ask Mr. Katava to confirm their authenticity.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for
10 Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac, please. Microphone for Mrs.
11 Slokovic-Glumac. We could not hear the beginning of
12 the question. We're sorry.
13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
14 Q. Do you know who was the author of this? Was
15 it Mr. Zvonimir Cilic on the 11th of May, '97? This is
16 the first letter, isn't it? Could they be placed on
17 the ELMO, please?
18 A. The first letter is addressed to -- yes, we
19 should show it. This was the first letter. This was
20 the first letter, and then a broader version, an
21 expanded version, was written. Mr. Cilic read it in
22 front of Mr. Steiner and handed it over to him.
23 Let me just say that all the media in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time covered this and
25 transmitted the substance.
1Q. Other letters were written by you in
2 cooperation with co-signatories?
3 A. No, not quite. Let's say that we all drew
4 them up, wrote them and initialled in full consensus.
5 I think that means something. I repeat, Mr. Vlado
6 Santic was not there. He was the only one who did not
7 take part in this, even though we did communicate by
8 telephone and discuss it. But this was the joint
10 Q. So you can confirm that all those letters
11 were the product of your joint initiative and your
12 joint effort at the time; is that so?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Will you tell us just one more thing?
15 Yesterday you said that you were sorry that you had not
16 struck a friendship -- you had not stricken a
17 friendship with Mr. Zoran Kupreskic earlier. Why did
18 you say that?
19 A. Yes, I really was sorry about that, because
20 as a young man, when I was 17 or 18, I used to be a
21 member of a folk dancing group in Vukovar, and I'm
22 sorry that in perhaps 1977, when I moved into Vitez, I
23 did not join such a nice cultural society, the
24 protagonists of which were the brothers Kupreskic.
25 That is what I had in mind.
1MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: All right. Thank you
2 very much.
3 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I should
5 now like to adduce into evidence D47/2, that it be now
6 admitted into evidence.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D108/2.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: No, D48/2. You did say
10 THE REGISTRAR: No, D108/2.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Oh, I see.
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: So this is in your
13 numbering, is it?
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I apologise. D108.
15 MR. BLAXILL: No objections, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection. Thank you.
17 All right. It is admitted into evidence as D108/2.
18 As you know, today we will have to adjourn at
19 1.00. I would like to suggest that we go on until
20 quarter to 11.00 and then we have a 30-minute break,
21 only one break. So if you don't mind, Mr. Blaxill.
22 MR. BLAXILL: Not at all, Your Honour.
23 Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning.
24 Mr. Katava, good morning to you, sir.
25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
1MR. BLAXILL: My name is Michael Blaxill, and
2 I'm one of the prosecuting counsel in this case. As a
3 result of your testimony yesterday and today, I do have
4 a few questions I would like to ask you, sir.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
6 Q. Just to clarify one point you mentioned
7 yesterday, there was another Mr. Marinko Katava you
8 referred to from Busovaca. You referred to that person
9 being younger than yourself. Could you indicate how
10 old that person was, say in 1993, to the best of your
12 A. Yesterday, perhaps you did not hear it from
13 the interpreters. Yesterday, I said that that bloke,
14 that person, was born when I was serving in the army,
15 and that was 1971, so it could have been '71 or perhaps
16 '72. Early '72 perhaps.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, you worked in a large
18 commercial enterprise, as a senior executive in
19 Impregnacija, in 1992; is that correct, sir?
20 A. '92, yes. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Could you just indicate, sir, the local
22 municipality authority that had the effective power and
23 control in the Vitez and Lasva Valley region in late
24 1992, that is, around October? Was that in fact the
25 authority of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,
1was that the effective power?
2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I'm afraid that you might
3 draw me into political waters, and I really don't swim
4 particularly well in that kind of waters, who was the
5 authority. In 1990, I was a member of the municipal
6 electoral commission. That was the first time we were
7 having multi-party elections in Vitez. After those
8 elections, there was another round of elections, and I
9 was removed, I was removed from that commission, and I
10 suppose my only sin was I was not a member of the HDZ.
11 So as far as the politics is concerned, I was
12 trying hard not to step into it with one foot, I mean
13 let alone both my feet.
14 Now, I know, of course, a lot of time has
15 passed by, and one thinks back. Of course, the results
16 of the multi-party elections were, as we know,
17 unfavourable for Muslims, who were somewhat few in
18 numbers. Croats should have had the majority in the
19 parliament, and I don't know -- I really don't know
20 what happened. But they set up their parallel bodies
21 of authority and so on and so forth, and then it
22 followed an undesirable course and ended as it ended,
23 in what it shouldn't have ended.
24 Q. Mr. Katava, I'm not trying to draw you into
25 political opinions of any sort. What I'm asking you is
1as a businessman in a large company, you have to
2 function presumably with things like permits and
3 various things with local authorities. To the best of
4 your recall, was it correct that it was that authority,
5 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna or the HVO, was
6 that the effective authority that you had to deal with
7 and that people had to deal with in the course of
9 A. The only person communicating with the
10 authorities was the general manager. I could
11 communicate only with at that time it was called the
12 employment fund, when we needed some more employed or
13 when things relative to social security had to be
14 done. That was the former foundation for social
15 insurance. And there were people who had been working
16 there for years before that, and people that I
17 communicated with, that I maintained contact with, were
18 the same before and after the elections.
19 Q. All right, Mr. Katava, we can move on from
21 You say you were a member of the hunting
22 society. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many members did the hunting society
25 have, do you recall, in, let us say, late 1992?
1A. Around 300, I believe.
2 Q. You made reference in your evidence yesterday
3 that during the conflict with, I think, the Serb
4 aggression as you referred to it, your members of your
5 hunting group were, in fact, deployed in some way on a
6 protective line; is that correct?
7 A. Well, it was not the protective line, and
8 there was no direct contact with -- I don't know what
9 term you use here -- with Serbs. Let it be, shall we
10 say, in quotation marks. I mean that was the
11 terminology we used. There was no direct contact with
12 them. But there is visibility from Vlasic where the
13 Yugoslav forces were deployed, there is a very good
14 view of this whole area or the picnic area that we used
15 at Zabrdze and to Poljane. There was a very good view
16 of this. So why did we go up there? To protect that
17 part of the hunting grounds and to let the Serbs see
18 that that area was covered, so as to try to dissuade
19 them from any possible idea or attempt at an assault,
20 perhaps an attempt to take over the Impregnacija
21 plant. That was the idea. So we -- or perhaps, I
22 mean, being as hunters, you know, hunters, that is a
23 very good opportunity for us to spend seven days
24 together, socialising, having a couple of drinks,
25 perhaps having somebody say something, roasting some
1game, something like that.
2 Q. Are you suggesting, Mr. Katava, this was some
3 kind of social event, or were there to protect
4 territory from the, quote, "Serb aggressors"?
5 A. I don't understand what you mean by "social
6 event". It was not a party, it was not a party, but we
7 did have a good time there. But we also thought that
8 we were useful.
9 Q. Did you at any time become involved in any
10 kind of active combat activity with Serb forces in that
12 A. No, no, there was no contact.
13 Q. It's true to say, however, that there was
14 active combat between Serb forces and other forces,
15 including predominantly Croat forces, in that region at
16 that time; is that not so? There was a war going on,
17 wasn't there, of sorts?
18 A. Yes, yes, there was a war. However, that was
19 away from our lines. That was -- we were overlooking
20 the city, the town of Vitez, and the fighting was above
21 Novi Travnik and on Mount Vlasic. That was the line.
22 The position was called something like Kamenjar or
23 Kamenjas where both units of both sides were located.
24 Q. Mr. Katava, I presume you were armed at the
25 time when you were doing that duty. Is that correct?
2 Q. I assume you were wearing your hunting kit or
3 some kind of outdoor clothing, or was it possibly parts
4 of uniforms, when you were performing those functions;
5 is that right?
6 A. No. I talked about the weapons I had
7 yesterday. I had those weapons with me then, and I
8 still have them at home today.
9 Q. How many times did you go out to that area
10 and perform this duty and whatever else took place?
11 A. It was in the second half of 1992. I
12 explained yesterday that every fourth week, we went for
13 seven days to Zabrdze.
14 Q. The members or presumably the numbers of a
15 group that would go out there, how were they chosen and
16 how were they notified of their turn to do that duty?
17 A. Our head huntsman drew up a roster and he
18 read it out once, and then all the hunters knew,
19 because of that roster, when their turn was.
20 Q. Are you aware as to whether the head hunter
21 or any other member of that society had contact with
22 HVO military people to coordinate what you did with
23 whatever other defences were in place?
24 A. I can't say with any certainty, but I assume
25 they did.
1Q. We'll move on, if we may, sir, to the 20th of
2 October, 1992.
3 There was a certain event that's been often
4 referred to here as the first conflict in Ahmici. Were
5 you aware of that event in October 1992?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. I'll move forward, if I may, sir,
8 to the 15th of April of 1993.
9 You stated yesterday that as far as you were
10 concerned, this was a normal working day; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That you retired to bed after the 10.00 news?
14 A. Approximately, yes.
15 Q. And that you slept through until, I believe
16 you said, about 05.30 hours on the 16th, when
17 detonations awoke you; is that right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. You made reference at that point where people
20 said they got up, maybe washed, maybe dressed,
21 whichever order. Do you recall what you did and about
22 what time it was that you left your apartment to go
23 outside the building?
24 A. I can only repeat what I said yesterday. We
25 were awakened in a hurry. The first thing I did was to
1look after my children -- they were crying and they
2 were sleepy -- and to put them in the corridor where I
3 felt they were safest. I don't remember whether I
4 washed, but I certainly dressed, and then I went
5 downstairs to the entrance of the building. All this
6 could have taken 10 or 15 minutes, so it must have been
7 between half past 5.00 and 6.00 or a quarter past
8 6.00. However, I did not look at my watch. No one did
10 Q. When you got outside your building, you
11 encountered and/or were joined by a number of your
12 neighbours, and all of those were Croat neighbours; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes, yes. In the beginning, as I said
15 yesterday, Mr. Stojkovici, Mr. Stipo Krizanac, were
16 already there when I arrived, and I think that Marijan
17 Vinac was there. But there were seven or eight people
18 whom I listed, and they were there. They came and
19 went, and this went on for five, six or seven days.
20 That was the time we spent at the entrance to the
22 Q. If I can just stick at this point in time,
23 sir, to the 16th of April of 1993, I believe you said
24 yesterday that none of your Muslim or indeed Serb
25 neighbours came out of their apartments, and yet a
1number of your Croat neighbours did. I believe you
2 said that, sir. Is that correct?
3 A. No, no, no. That's not what I said, that's
4 not what I said. I will repeat what I said yesterday.
5 Milisav Bacanovic, my neighbour, is a
6 Montenegrin, my neighbour Stojkovici from A6 is a Serb,
7 and they were, I think, there throughout this whole
8 time with us. The Muslim neighbours, during that day,
9 did come from time to time. I mentioned Mr. Salkic
10 from the first floor. He came and offered us
11 cigarettes, something to drink. Another neighbour,
12 Mirsad, I mentioned his name yesterday.
13 (redacted) would come. We went to have coffee
14 with him.
15 Q. When you were outside on the street, did you
16 see any other persons, and in particular did you see
17 any military personnel on the street?
18 A. We were not in the street. We were at the
19 entrance into the building, which has some stairs
20 leading up and there's a small corridor, and we would
21 run over the four big stairs and we would -- we were
22 actually underneath the staircase for protection.
23 Q. But presumably from the entranceway, there
24 were times that you were able to look into the street;
25 is that right?
1A. There is no street, there's just a side
2 street passing by, and at that time there was not much
3 traffic even on the normal days. All we could see was
4 the big parking lot in front of this building and the
5 other buildings which enclosed our view. There are
6 four other buildings in front of ours and then the road
7 is behind them, so we were unable to see what was going
8 on. But as I said, that part of town was deserted. It
9 was like a ghost town in those days. There were not
10 even any stray dogs in the street because their
11 instinct probably told them to hide.
12 Q. So if I may encapsulate what you're saying,
13 sir, are you telling us that you did not at any time
14 see any soldiers outside your building during the 16th
15 of April, 1993, or did you see any kind of soldiers
16 outside your building during that day? That's, I hope,
17 simple enough, sir.
18 A. I think that on the 16th of April, if that is
19 the day we are talking about, I think there was no
20 movement. If you asked me about soldiers, I assume we
21 are referring to units, no, there were no military
23 Q. I will ask just one more question relating to
24 that specific issue, Mr. Katava, and that is this: Did
25 you see any single soldiers in the vicinity of your
1building that day, not military units but men in
2 uniform carrying weapons? Did you see anybody like
4 A. I think there were people who came and went.
5 They were individuals, and it wasn't often, and there
6 were not many of them. I don't know about that first
7 day, whether anybody came or went, but in the following
8 four or five days, there were people who came and went
9 and who were in uniform. But they were always
11 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I would now be
12 asking to move into private session for a very short
13 period of time. Bearing in mind it's a quarter to, it
14 might be a good idea to recommence in that private
15 session and take a break now.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We'll take a 30-minute
18 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.
20 (Private session)
13 page 10607 redacted – private session
13 page 10608 redacted – private session
13 page 10609 redacted – private session
13 page 10610 redacted – private session
3 (Open session)
4 MR. BLAXILL:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, you stated that on the
6 morning of the 16th -- and I've taken a couple of
7 quotations from your testimony yesterday -- you said
8 that you wanted to protect your neighbours. And then
9 you said, " ... and what we had heard was really bad."
10 And you also made the expression, " ... to forestall or
11 prevent anyone's bad conduct."
12 Now, what bad conduct were you expecting or
13 afraid of that required to you protect your neighbours?
14 A. I said yesterday that we wanted first of all
15 to protect our families, our children, and I said that
16 from what had already happened, we could not expect
17 anything good. We wanted to protect them from
18 something we did not know. We did not know what might
19 happen the next minute, the next hour, the next day,
20 and we didn't know that for the whole time, 350 days
21 that the town was surrounded.
22 Q. Mr. Katava, I'm asking you simply on the
23 morning of the 16th of April, 1993, and you have stated
24 in evidence here that you wanted to protect your
25 neighbours. You also said that, quote, "What we had
1heard was really bad." Now, let's start with that:
2 What had you heard that you say was, quote, "really
4 A. The detonations.
5 Q. So you're saying at this point in time, your
6 concern was for your neighbours because there were
7 shells falling nearby; is that right?
8 A. Please, I would like to repeat, I was worried
9 most of all about my family and only then about my
10 neighbours and all the people who were there.
11 Q. But if your concern was for the results of
12 shells falling, presumably possibly falling on your
13 building, presumably the interests of protection
14 applied equally to all of you; what could you do to
15 help your neighbours from falling shells?
16 A. You are putting words in my mouth.
17 Fortunately, shells were not falling on my building, or
18 as far as I could see, around it. They were not
19 falling. However, who could say that the next one
20 would not fall on my van or into the entranceway or
21 into my apartment or somebody else's apartment?
22 Q. So in that way, in what manner did you think
23 you could offer protection to your neighbours by
24 visiting their apartments? How would that offer any
25 assistance if a shell fell on that building?
1A. What am I supposed to answer to such a
2 question? It is difficult even to think back and
3 remember 1993. How can one protect anyone from shells
4 falling? Well, there is no way. There is no
5 protection from that. But how one can help, to perhaps
6 help that the consequences are less fateful, what kind
7 of help? Well, I just thought that we were there and
8 that we perhaps could help somehow. How, I don't know,
9 because nothing like that happened. But had something
10 happened, had somebody been wounded or injured or
11 whatever, I don't really know.
12 Q. Subsequently, then, what prompted your
13 comment -- and I believe I've noted this accurately
14 from yesterday -- you wanted to forestall or prevent
15 anyone's bad conduct? Let's move on from shelling.
16 What did you mean by that?
17 A. Well, you want me once again to use the noun
18 "threat." But if the explosions were as horrible as
19 that, if there were bursts of gunfire, then that
20 particular noun can mean only something unknown. To
21 protect: How? We could not really know who could be
22 coming, with what intent.
23 I'm not going back to history, but say you
24 have an earthquake and the thieves see an opportunity
25 to do their job, so in a situation such as it was,
1criminals -- and you find them everywhere; if nothing
2 else, we would be preventing robberies, theft,
3 burglaries, say. Theft, robbery, things like that.
4 Whether we could prevent something else, I don't really
5 know what, and with what, if you wish. But we were
6 there, and we are talking about five, six, or seven men
7 who are there.
8 Q. I will put it to you, Mr. Katava, and you can
9 agree or disagree as you see fit: Weren't you really
10 concerned as to the potential conduct of HVO soldiers
11 towards some of the occupants of your apartment block?
12 Would that be fair to say, on my part, or not?
13 A. In all that was unknown, in what I call the
14 unknown, one part -- but perhaps only one part -- of
15 that unknown might have been a threat of that kind.
16 And why not the other way around? Why not the other
17 way around, too? So the other way around is, again,
18 only one part of that unknown.
19 Q. Mr. Katava, do you recall what happened the
20 following day, the 17th of April, 1993?
21 A. No, I think it was similar to that one. As a
22 matter of fact, all the days were -- every day was like
23 the day before it or the day after it. I can't really
24 single out that particular day for any reason.
25 Q. Do you recall when, possibly, whether or not
1you saw any military people in the course of that day
2 or perhaps the following day, the 18th of April?
3 A. Just before we had the break, I said that on
4 the 16th, that I think that on the 16th, nobody came or
5 went. I'm referring to men in uniform; I'm referring
6 to uniformed people. On the 17th or on the 18th, I
7 think -- not, however, to my entrance, but I think to
8 other entrances which we could see, I think that men
9 came -- or rather entered and went out, and we assumed
10 that they were the tenants, the residents of those
11 particular entrances. And they were always
13 Q. Can you think of any reason, sir, why the
14 entrance to your apartments did not attract the
15 attention of soldiers, whereas clearly you say they
16 visited other entrances to apartments in the immediate
18 A. No, I don't know. I can't -- I just can't
19 give any definite answer why was that.
20 Q. I believe, sir, some days later you say that
21 you were actually, yourself, mobilised into the HVO
22 forces -- is that correct? -- somewhere after the
23 20th? Would that be right?
24 A. Yes, it would.
25 Q. You've indicated to this Court that you knew
1Mr. Vlado Santic for a period of some 15 to 17 years.
2 That is correct, sir?
3 A. Yes, and I described the relations between us
5 Q. And you knew what his profession was, that he
6 was a civilian police officer; did you later become
7 aware of any change of profession, to military police
8 or an HVO role played by Mr. Santic?
9 A. We did not meet often.
10 Q. So if I were to suggest to you, sir, that at
11 April, 1993, Mr. Vlado Santic was a military police
12 officer, would you able to say, "Yes, that is within my
13 knowledge," or "No, I don't know that"?
14 A. No, at that time, I did not know where he
16 Q. Did you have any or much contact with
17 Mr. Vlado Santic in late 1992, prior to the conflict
18 breaking out?
19 A. No. Let me repeat what I have already said.
20 Whenever we met, and that was always by chance, we
21 would greet one another in the street, and that was
22 all. That was the kind of acquaintanceship between
23 us. We never even had, say, coffee together in a cafe,
24 or whatever. Nothing like it.
25 Q. In the latter stages, when you might have
1encountered Mr. Santic on the street, did you ever see
2 him wearing uniform?
3 A. When? Later when?
4 Q. Late 1992, or in the early months of 1993.
5 A. No, I never saw him. If we are talking about
6 the end of 1992, I did not see him. I did not see him
7 one single time during the war. I was deployed at a
8 completely different place, and I do not know where he
10 MR. BLAXILL: If I may just have the Court's
11 indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.
12 I'm advised, Your Honour, that concludes my
13 cross-examination. Thank you.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.
15 Counsel Pavkovic?
16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Re-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
18 Q. Mr. Katava, you confirmed today that you were
19 mobilised on the 20th of April, 1993, and a while ago
20 you said that you were assigned to a completely
21 different duty and that you did not know where Vlado
22 Santic was. Could you tell us, where was it that you
23 had been assigned to?
24 A. Well, it seems that I am the only one here
25 who is trying to be accurate. Where could I be? I
1said that I was assigned between the 20th and the 22nd,
2 and I asked you to leave that particular period of
3 time, time frame, not on the 20th but between the 20th
4 and the 22nd. A courier from the Defence office served
5 the paper, the assignment. I wouldn't call it the
6 engineering unit, I would call it a unit made of a very
7 small number of men who had the skill and the knowledge
8 how to provide alternative routes to Nova Bila, that
9 is, the alternative route to Busovaca, as the main road
10 was under fire, let me put it that way, under gunfire,
11 so that we were using some paths, some lanes, some
12 forest paths which we filled, which we broadened, in
13 order to provide conditions for the transport of the
14 wounded in the direction of Novi Bila.
15 Q. Mr. Katava, will you tell me, until that 20th
16 or the 21st of April, '93, did you have an army
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you. At that time, did you have any
20 personal army weapon?
21 A. Army weapon, no.
22 Q. Did you know how to use an automatic rifle?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You were asked today about those detonations,
25 about those explosions, and you told us something about
1that. Could you tell me if you had any advance
2 knowledge of any explosion?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. When you told us that you wanted to protect
5 the neighbours in your building, did you mean all your
6 neighbours, both of the Croat and Muslim ethnicity or
7 any other ethnicity?
8 A. I never distinguished people by religion or
9 ethnic origin or the colour of their skin, and I wish
10 all people would just distinguish people as people, as
11 those who are human and those who are not, and if you
12 ask me today, I would do the same thing.
13 Q. You told us that you were afraid of something
14 unknown and that that was why, at your entrance, you
15 organised for this whole residential block a kind of
16 security. You said, of course, that you wouldn't be
17 able to prevent a shell falling or anticipate where it
18 would fall, but could you say that the warnings -- that
19 what you did for your neighbours were just some kind of
20 instructions, some kind of advice as to how to protect
21 themselves at that particular moment?
22 A. How much we hoped to contribute to helping
23 them, to protect them, we meant of course women and
24 children, we were trying to tell them how to protect
25 them to try to calm them down. How successful we were,
1of course, is very difficult to tell. But fortunately,
2 I must say, fortunately there were no effects, there
3 were no consequences; that is, these people, life and
4 limbs of those people were not in danger.
5 I don't know when that particular explosion
6 happened. That was when, of course, all the window
7 panes broke, and then we went around and looked for
8 some plastic, for some clips or for whatever to protect
9 those windows. We were going around and looking for
10 paper clips to fix those things, so that was this
11 natural help, and I think that it is just normal,
12 natural, neighbourly assistance.
13 Q. My learned friend for the Prosecution asked
14 you if that threat from somebody unknown included also
15 the threat coming from the HVO, and in your reply, you
16 allowed such a possibility, of course if I understood
17 you well. Will you tell me if one of such possible
18 threats would also include threats from individuals,
19 from supporters, or from groups related in some way to
20 the BH army; was that possible?
21 A. Well, yes, of course, that is what I said,
22 and that was only part of that unknown, and also the
23 reverse could also play a part in that unknown.
24 So I am repeating. At my entrance with 12
25 apartments, if you are forcing me to distinguish
1people, to give out people, there were four Croats in
2 those 12 apartments. But of course we could have had
3 the reverse situation, that a Croat also could have
4 been under threat. That was also an unknown then.
5 Q. So if I'm understanding you properly, you
6 thought that all the people were vulnerable, that the
7 threat could be coming from anyone, from robbers,
8 burglars, and so on and so forth. Is that so?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. Could we go, just
11 for a moment, into private session, because I just
12 remembered the names of some witnesses who are
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
15 (Private session)
24 (Open session)
25 (The witness entered court)
1JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Mrs. Veronique
2 Fonville, good morning. Could you please make the
3 solemn declaration as an interpreter? First the
4 interpreter and then the witness.
5 THE INTERPRETER: I solemnly declare that I
6 will do so faithfully, independently, impartially, and
7 with full respect for the duty of confidentiality.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, this is as an
10 And now the solemn declaration of Mrs. Hume,
11 Johanna Hume, as a witness.
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
16 seated, and I will ask Counsel Pavkovic to start with
17 the examination in chief.
18 MR. PAVKOVIC: This is in open session. I'm
19 just checking.
20 May we begin?
21 WITNESS: JOHANNA HUME
22 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
23 Q. Good morning, madam. We talked, or rather
24 you talked to our legal assistant, Mr. Vrdoljak, and he
25 explained to you the reasons for which we wanted to ask
1you to come here and give your evidence; is that
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. I apologise. I have to introduce myself.
5 I'm Petar Pavkovic, and I am the Defence counsel for
6 Vladimir Santic, and I will ask you some questions
7 today about subjects which you have already been
8 informed about. You know what we shall like to hear
9 from you.
10 A. Yes, that's fine.
11 Q. I hope we shall be able to overcome
12 linguistic difficulties and others. If you have any
13 question or if you have any suggestions, of course, I
14 shall be quite happy to help you.
15 So madam, please, will you tell us your
16 name? Tell us your name, your full name, the date of
17 your birth, and where do you live, the place of
19 A. My name is Johanna Hume, and -- shall I
20 answer in English or in Dutch?
21 JUDGE CASSESE: In English, if you have a
22 command of English. Yes.
23 A. Okay. I'm born the 23rd of April, 1960, in
24 Amsterdam, and I live in Amsterdam now at this day.
25 It's difficult for me, because I hear the
1Croatian language and I understand it, and I have to
2 listen to this lady who translates it.
3 (Trial Chamber confers)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Would you tune in to
5 channel 4?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's channel 4. Yes, it's
8 MR. PAVKOVIC:
9 Q. Can you hear English now? Can you hear
11 A. Yes, I can, but I also understand the
12 Croatian language.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Even better.
14 MR. PAVKOVIC:
15 Q. In other words, we realise you can understand
16 us all perfectly, and we can all understand you. So
17 will you please give us, once again, your full name,
18 the year of your birth, and your address?
19 A. My full name is Johanna Henriette Hume, and
20 I'm born the 23rd of April, 1960, in Amsterdam, and I
21 live now Amsteldijk 97 in Amsterdam.
22 Q. Thank you. This perhaps is a personal
23 question, but I must ask you because it is important
24 for me. Are you married?
25 A. No, I'm not married.
1Q. Were you?
2 A. Yes, I've been married.
3 Q. So you are divorced, are you?
4 A. Yes, I'm divorced. I was --
5 Q. Did you change your name after your divorce?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. What was your former surname?
8 A. The name of my husband, you mean?
9 Q. Right.
10 A. That was Dasovic.
11 Q. Now, could you tell me if you have any
13 A. Yes, I have two children, two daughters
14 called Ana and Branka Dasovic.
15 Q. In 1992 or, rather, 1993, how old were your
17 A. They were --
18 Q. Six or seven years ago.
19 A. [Inaudible]... was about nine, ten years old.
20 Q. At that time, did your older daughter, that
21 is, the elder daughter Ana, go to school? I'm
22 referring to the '92/'93 school year.
23 A. Yes. Both my daughters went to the same
25 Q. Do you remember perhaps if, on a certain
1occasion, your daughter told you something, and you
2 found it important, that a new pupil had joined her
4 A. In December 1992, a new child, a girl, came
5 to Ana's class, and she was from Bosnia. She came from
6 Bosnia and she joined the class, and I told the teacher
7 that if there were any problems with the language, it
8 was possible for me to translate from Bosnian to Dutch.
9 Q. Could you tell me what happened then and what
10 the name of the little girl was?
11 A. I went to the school, and my daughter Ana
12 said, "This is the girl," and she told me her name was
13 Ema Alilovic.
14 Q. After that, did you become acquainted with
15 her father?
16 A. Yes. I told her, in the hall of the school,
17 in the Croatian language, "I'm the mother of Ana, and
18 if your parents need any help and they don't speak the
19 language, I can help you." She told her parents that,
20 and after that I -- the same afternoon, her mother came
21 to my house and invited me to come and meet the whole
22 family, and that included her father.
23 Q. Could you tell us what her mother's name was?
24 A. The name of the mother is Dragica Krizanac.
25 Q. Her name is Dragica Krizanac now, but it was
1Dragica Alilovic then; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.
3 Q. After that, did you visit the Alilovic
5 A. Yes, several times. Almost every week, I
6 came there.
7 Q. Very well. We are at the beginning. I will
8 ask you about that later on.
9 Could you tell me, when did you visit the
10 Alilovic family for the first time? Was it in late
11 1992, early 1993; can you remember at all? Do you
12 recall a certain day or a certain occasion, apart from
13 the time you came to meet the family, as you told us
14 just a while ago?
15 A. I met -- I went to the home the first time in
16 December 1992. I don't know the exact date, but it
17 must be between Sinterklaas, that's the 5th of
18 December, and Christmas.
19 Q. Today, madam, you told us that you understand
20 the Croatian language or the Bosnian language. Did you
21 talk to them in the Bosnian language then?
22 A. Yes. To the parents, to Stipo and Dragica, I
23 only spoke Croatian, because he didn't understand one
24 word of Dutch; maybe "thank you" or "hello", but that
25 was all. So I spoke only Croatian with the parents,
1Dragica and Stipo.
2 Q. Do you remember how old their children were
3 then and how many children they had?
4 A. They have two children, and Ema was the same
5 age as my oldest daughter, about ten years old. She's
6 half a year younger than my daughter. Her birthday is
7 in June, and my daughter's birthday is in December.
8 And they have a son, Petar, and Petar's birthday I
9 don't know, but he was seven years younger than his
11 Q. When you talk about Ema, you're talking about
12 Emilija, in fact?
13 A. Emilija, but her name in Holland was Ema
14 because "Emilija" was too -- she said she wished to
15 prefer her name is Ema, and because one of our queens
16 was called Ema, she was very proud to use that name.
17 Q. If I understood you correctly, you lived in
18 the vicinity, you were neighbours.
19 A. Yes. We weren't direct neighbours, but they
20 lived now two minutes walking, at the most, from my
22 Q. So your children went to the same school?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell me what the teacher's name was
25 at that time?
1A. Christine. She was called Christine.
2 Q. Can you tell us who the principal of the
3 school was at that time? What was the name of the
4 gentleman who was the school principal then?
5 A. The school principal was called Wout
6 Groenwald or Groenwoud. I don't remember exactly, but
7 it is Groenwald or Groenwoud, and his first name is
9 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell me a
10 little about the customs prevailing today -- and I
11 presume they did then, in 1992, 1993 -- because you
12 yourself are also a teacher. Did parents, especially
13 parents of young children, have to bring their children
14 to school and come to collect them after the end of the
16 A. I don't understand the question. Can you
17 repeat it, please?
18 Q. My question is the following: Do parents
19 have to accompany their children to school and come to
20 collect them when classes are over?
21 A. Yes. That's common in Holland, that you
22 bring your children to school and that you collect them
23 in the afternoon, and then you bring them back for the
24 afternoon school, and then you collect them at 15 past
25 3.00. And -- well, there are some mothers who don't
1bring their children, but I brought my children every
2 day to school, and I would collect them at the end of
3 the day, till they were 10, 11 years old.
4 Q. If we recall that time now, 1992, 1993, can
5 you tell us whether the Alilovic family also did this
6 and accompanied their children to school and came to
7 collect them?
8 A. Yes. Most times, the father, Stipo Alilovic,
9 came to school. He waited at the fence. There was the
10 street, with a fence, and he waited there and smoked a
11 cigarette, and he waited there for his children till
12 they came out. He never entered the school. There
13 were also mothers who entered the school, but he never
14 did. He always waited outside.
15 Q. So you used to see him?
16 A. Almost every day, yeah, but also in the
18 Q. So you used to see him, and you would
19 probably talk to him when you met him in front of the
21 A. Yes, I did. We didn't have big conversations
22 every day, but I always greeted him and said, "How are
23 you," and ...
24 Q. If I understood you correctly, you used to
25 see him at his house as well?
1A. Yes, I did. Sometimes the children played
2 together, and we went there for coffee or for ...
3 Q. As far as we know so far, their son, Petar,
4 the son of Stipo and Dragica Alilovic, was young at
5 that time. He went to kindergarten. Do you know
6 anything about who took him there and when, and what is
7 usually done in respect of this?
8 A. Well, the younger son, I know at the
9 mornings, the oldest -- Ema took him for school. In
10 Holland, it's the custom that children go to school
11 from four years old. So when they are four years old,
12 they go to school. But at the same school, that's
13 called a primary school, there's also the
14 peuterspeelzaal. I don't know the English word, but
15 it's called "peuterspeelzaal." It's a play school for
16 little children, and it's in the same building. He
17 went there first, for a year, until he was four years
18 old, and then he went to the first class of primary
20 Q. You say that he was taken by someone; who
21 took him, as far as you know?
22 A. In the mornings his older sister took him, so
23 Ema took him, and in the afternoons, his father or his
24 mother would collect him. But mostly Stipo collected
25 the children.
1Q. You knew from your conversations with him
2 that Stipo and Dragica Alilovic had arrived as refugees
3 from Bosnia?
4 A. I know, yes.
5 Q. You told us today that you offered to help
6 them, and that you did?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Did you help them put their documents in
9 order, the documents concerning their refugee status?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can we go on, or would you like to take a
12 break? How do you feel? You can tell us.
13 A. I am all right now. I just have to
15 Q. So you helped the Alilovic family in their
16 everyday worries and concerns about their refugee
17 status; can you please tell us something about this?
18 A. Well, they didn't have status when I met them
19 for the first time. They were without status. They
20 had to have been several months in a refugee camp, in
21 "Asielzoekerscentrum," we called it, here in the
22 Netherlands. But they have got a ROA house, that's a
23 house where refugees without status can live for
24 several time, so they don't have to be in a camp,
25 because it's very stressing.
1And when I met him, the whole family didn't
2 have status; but in May, 1993, the family got status
3 and went together to the vreemdelingenpolitie, a
4 foreign police, the -- I don't know how it's called,
5 vreemdelingenpolitie, in the Bijlmermeer in Amsterdam,
6 and there the whole family got their "A" status. "A"
7 is the best status you can get here as a refugee. Then
8 you can get your family here, and you have the same
9 rights as Dutch people.
10 Q. You said that in May 1993, they achieved this
11 refugee status; up to that time, did they have any
12 documents to prove their identity? Did they have any
13 documents at all, as far as you know?
14 A. They had -- when you get your "A" status, you
15 all get a document where it's printed on -- I don't
16 know how it looks like, but -- and you can ask, if you
17 don't have your own passport, you can ask here for a
18 vluchtelingenpaspoort, a refugee passport. I don't
19 know where they have -- I know they had some kind of
20 identification, but I don't know exactly what. They
21 all had papers from the foreign police.
22 Q. During this time, while someone is waiting to
23 get their refugee status, regardless of what you said
24 about seeing Stipo almost every day, was it possible to
25 leave your place of residence, or did you have to go to
1the police and report the to police on a regular basis
2 to show that you were here?
3 A. You can leave your place of residence; that's
4 possible. You can't leave the country, because you
5 don't have a passport. When Stipo and Dragica asked
6 for permission to stay here, they had to give their
7 passports to the police. They can travel in our
8 country freely. When they lived in the refugee camp,
9 the Asielzoekerscentrum, you have to go there every
10 week and get -- you get a stamp. But when you live in
11 a ROA house, that isn't necessary.
12 Q. Can we say that up to May 1993, Stipo
13 Alilovic did not have a passport? He could not have
14 left the Netherlands?
15 A. No, never, he could have not -- no, that's
16 not possible.
17 Q. Thank you. Would you tell me, madam, do you
18 know that Stipo Alilovic has died?
19 A. I know.
20 Q. Do you know when Stipo Alilovic died?
21 A. 25 October, 1995. I saw him about one hour
22 after he died.
23 Q. From what you have told us, it is evident
24 that you were on good terms with the Alilovic family
25 and that you were, one might say, friends. I assume
1that you knew about many of their little secrets, as
2 people usually find these out when they associate as
3 friends. Can you tell me, did the Alilovic family
4 during that time have money?
5 A. Money? No.
6 Q. How did they live?
7 A. They didn't have money. They -- they came
8 from a refugee camp, and they lived in a ROA house.
9 That means that the central organisation for refugees
10 paid the rent and paid for electricity and gas, and
11 they received, I think, monthly, the whole family,
12 800 guilders to buy their clothes, to buy their food,
13 to buy the necessary things. And when they hadn't
14 status, they didn't receive child support. We know --
15 child support, "kinderbijslag" it's called in Dutch.
16 But when you have no status, you don't -- you don't
17 have a right for that money. They received it not
18 until they had their "A" status. So it was -- yeah,
19 bad for them.
20 Q. So they could meet only their minimum needs?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when associating with the Alilovic
23 family, you were probably able to discuss -- and I
24 assume you did -- these things, so you probably were
25 able to learn the attitude Stipo Alilovic had toward
1the war that was then going on in Bosnia. Do you
2 remember having such conversations with him?
3 A. Well, we talked about the war in Bosnia,
4 because a lot of family of both Dragica and Stipo still
5 lived there. He hated the war. He didn't want to talk
6 about it very much, because he always said, "I don't
7 understand why there is war there, why our neighbours
8 have to be like that to each other." And he told me
9 why he was here in the Netherlands, because he received
10 a letter from the Croatian army that he had to appear
11 for his military duties, and at that moment he
12 escaped. He went to his sister in Austria and from
13 there to Holland, because he didn't want to stay
15 Q. Thank you. Madam, can you describe in
16 greater detail the physical appearance of Stipo
18 A. Well, the physical appearance, many children
19 in our neighbourhood were terribly afraid of him
20 because he had a big, black beard, a big moustache, and
21 he looked a bit -- and he had hair on his nose. It
22 grew from his nose. You don't see it often, but he had
23 it. He looked a bit -- yeah, angry, but he wasn't.
24 But many children, when they saw him, they -- they
1MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I would now
2 like to ask that the witness be shown a document, C10.
3 That is a document with a photograph of Stipo Alilovic,
4 so that the witness can look at it and say whether it
5 is Stipo Alilovic.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Could you tell us what that
7 exhibit number is? Because C10 doesn't match with a
9 MR. PAVKOVIC: We have C10 and C11. C10 is a
10 card, a bank card.
11 Q. Madam, I would now like to ask you to look at
12 this photograph and to tell us whether this photograph
13 shows Stipo Alilovic, the person we have been talking
14 about today.
15 A. Yes. This is him.
16 Q. Are you absolutely sure this is him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. That's enough.
20 Q. Madam, from what we have said today, may we
21 conclude that not a day or two had passed without your
22 seeing Stipo Alilovic from the time of his arrival in
23 the Netherlands up to his death in 1995?
24 A. Yes. From the time -- it's not completely
25 correct; I saw him from the day he came in Amsterdam
1till the day of his death. I didn't meet the family
2 when they were in the refugee camp. I met them in
3 December '92, when they came to Amsterdam.
4 Q. Very well.
5 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I would now
6 like to go into private session, because I would like
7 to ask some questions referring to protected
9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We'll move into
10 private session.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Private session, please.
12 Thank you.
13 (Private session)
13 page 10640 redacted – private session
13 page 10641 redacted – private session
13 page 10642 redacted – private session
22 (Open session)
23 MR. TERRIER:
24 Q. I shall repeat my question, madam. Could you
25 tell us how you came to learn Croatian?
1A. I married on the 6th of a August, 1980, with
2 a man who is called Dasovic. He lived in Zdencina, a
3 small village 20 kilometres from Zagreb. I met him
4 here in Holland, and we married. His parents didn't
5 speak one word of Dutch or German or English, or
6 anybody in that village spoke another language, so I
7 thought, when I have to communicate with the people who
8 are now my family and the friends of my husband, I have
9 to learn Croatian language.
10 So I went here to -- in Amsterdam you have
11 the Volksuniversiteit, and there I took two years of
12 course in Croatian language. That was after the first
13 time I went there. And I spoke with my parents-in-law
14 and with friends of my husband's also with a
16 I learn quickly languages. That's my
18 Q. I don't doubt that. How long did you live in
19 Croatia, as such? Could you tell us that?
20 A. I never lived in Croatia. I went there
21 for -- we lived in Amsterdam. My former husband still
22 lives in Amsterdam. But we went there for holidays.
23 We went there for six weeks every summer to visit the
24 family of my husband: his father, his mother, sister.
25 Q. Madam, do you have any special skills as to
1the foreign police, as to bylaws on cross-border
2 traffic, on travels by refugees, that sort of thing?
3 A. Yes, I do. I don't know in detail every
4 single rule, but I know that -- I know about status,
5 and I know a "C," and "E," and "A," and -- I know how
6 it works. And I was married to a foreigner, too, so --
7 and he did have -- yeah, it's called "C," because he
8 was married to a Dutch woman. And I -- yeah, I worked
9 with refugees. I gave Dutch as second language to
10 refugees who lived in Bussum. So I also heard there
11 from the rules that exist.
12 Q. In the Netherlands, as is the case in other
13 European countries, do you have associations which are
14 designed to help refugees?
15 A. Yes. In Holland, Vluchtelingenwerk.
16 Q. Well, are you a member of an association or
17 several associations?
18 A. [Inaudible] You get help from there. When
19 you are a refugee, you go there and you ask help, but
20 you can be a member of any kind of ...
21 Q. I shall repeat my question in a different
22 way; I don't think we understood each other.
23 Speaking about these associations helping
24 refugees, to do so they use nationals, don't they,
25 Dutch people?
2 Q. Were you employed by one such association?
3 A. I haven't been.
4 Q. Let's speak about the children and their
6 You told us that in the Netherlands, it is
7 customary for one or either of the parents to go and
8 collect the children from school. However, from what
9 you told us, it seems as though children went on their
10 own to school in the morning, by themselves.
11 A. No, not every child is going alone, but when
12 they are small, small, until six, eight, ten years old,
13 it's also depending on the distance you live from the
14 school. Amsterdam is a big, busy city, and you can
15 take your children along when they are small. So you
16 have to bring your children every day to school, but
17 there are children who are brought by an older sister
18 or older brother who is also visiting the same school.
19 Q. Well, let us speak about the Alilovic
20 family. I believe I heard earlier on from you that as
21 far as you could remember, Ema would take her small
22 brother to the school in the morning.
23 A. Yes, sometimes she took her brother in the
24 morning when her mother wasn't ready to go, or the
1Q. So it would happen that the children would go
2 by themselves to school?
3 A. Sometimes, yes, but it's different between me
4 and the family Alilovic, because when I pointed out the
5 school of our children was here -- yeah, I don't know
6 how to point it out. Here they lived. They lived
7 about 20, 30 metres from the school, and I lived a few
8 streets further.
9 Q. So would the children sometimes go home
10 alone, by themselves?
11 A. No, never, only when Mr. Alilovic got ill
12 later on, they sometimes went alone.
13 Q. Is there any special reason why the children
14 could go alone to school but couldn't come back by
15 themselves? Was there any special reason for that?
16 A. No, but -- they sometimes went alone to
17 school, and not every day. Most of the times, the
18 mother or the father brought, and only when one of the
19 parents couldn't come, they went alone. I don't know
20 the exact reason. I also -- I know that Mr. Alilovic
21 liked to get his children from school, and also she
22 liked to get them from school, because they could talk
23 with the neighbours and talk with the teacher, and it
24 was not only necessary but also social.
25 Q. I can understand that perfectly. However,
1this is my question: You said that it would sometimes
2 happen that the two children would go to school by
3 themselves without being accompanied. Hence my
4 question. Would it also sometimes happen that they
5 would go home from school by themselves?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So it would happen that parents, either the
8 mother or the father, did not get their children from
9 school, that that would sometimes happen; is that so?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You also testified that sometimes the mother
12 would go and collect the kids from school, so you
13 cannot say that you would see the father of those
14 children every day?
15 A. Well, the mother -- Dragica Alilovic, she
16 went to school. When they got their status, our
17 status, in Amsterdam you can follow school, so she went
18 to school from that time on to learn the Dutch
19 language. But he didn't want that because he wasn't
20 interested in that, and he stayed at the house with the
22 Q. Let's speak about the period going from
23 December '92 to April '93, so this is the period we are
24 interested in. At that time, do you remember that it
25 was the mother who would sometimes pick up the kids
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let's speak about the financial means of that
4 family, as you assessed them. Between December of '92
5 and April of '93, did either or both of the parents
7 A. You cannot work here when you are waiting for
8 your status.
9 Q. I'll put the question differently. Did one
10 or the other of the parents, for that period going from
11 December '92 to April '93, did either of them have any
12 professional activity of kinds?
13 A. No, they didn't.
14 Q. Mrs. Krizanac recognised and admitted that at
15 the time, not that she would have a professional
16 activity because she was sort of not allowed to, but
17 she would work in a restaurant. Did you know that
19 A. She worked in a restaurant in Bloemendaal.
20 That's a village near Amsterdam. She worked there in
21 the kitchen, but that is not a regular job. That was
22 illegal. We call it black, black work, because she
23 didn't pay taxes. She wasn't allowed to work, and the
24 family was really in big financial trouble. And I know
25 also the people where she worked, I know them.
1Q. Did you find her that job?
2 A. No, I didn't. I don't know exactly who,
3 but --
4 Q. It is just by chance that you happened to
5 know both people?
6 A. Yeah. The owner of that restaurant is a
7 friend of my former husband.
8 Q. Why didn't you mention that activity when
9 such questions were raised?
10 A. Because it wasn't allowed. When it's public
11 that she worked without permission, she would have to
12 pay it back, still now when they find out that she
13 worked illegal. How should I say it?
14 Q. Well, I'm sure I speak on behalf of the
15 Judges when I tell you that this Tribunal is not going
16 to bother Mrs. Krizanac. She's not going to be
17 disturbed at all.
18 Did Mr. Alilovic have another type of work of
19 the same kind?
20 A. Only later he did, when he got his papers.
21 August of '93, he played in a movie in Holland.
22 Q. Did the Alilovic family have a car?
23 A. They bought it in June or July, right after
24 they had status. They got their status in May, and
25 shortly after that they bought I think an Opel, Opel
1Kadett, a green one. I drove it when Mr. Alilovic was
2 seen in the hospital.
3 Q. You mean that prior to April 1993, they
4 didn't have a car?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did Mr. or Mrs. Alilovic speak to you about
7 what had happened in April '93 in Central Bosnia, in
8 the Lasva River Valley? Did you hear about this from
10 A. No. Yeah, we saw it on television, what had
12 Q. Did Mr. or Mrs. Alilovic comment on what had
14 A. She asked me -- he asked me, "Did you see
15 it?" "Yes, I did." And he said, "That's the place
16 where I was born. That's the surroundings where I was
18 Q. Did you know one of his cousins? I think he
19 was Tomislav Alilovic.
20 A. He lives in Holland; is that correct? No. I
21 think that he has family here in Holland, but I don't
22 remember they are from her side or his side, I don't
23 know, and I don't know the exact names.
24 Q. Do you know a cousin of his named Tomislav;
25 do you know him personally?
1A. I can't recall. I'm sorry.
2 Q. I'm just asking you if you know him
3 personally or not. That's easy to answer. Tomislav.
4 A. I know people called Tomislav, but not in
5 that --
6 Q. Well, I mentioned Tomislav Alilovic, cousin
7 of Stipo, and he too was born in Ahmici in Central
8 Bosnia, and that doesn't ring any bell?
9 A. No. I know the family of Stipo, but I don't
10 know their names, I don't recall their names. I know
11 there lived a nephew in Germany, but I don't know their
12 names. I saw them at the funeral of Mr. Alilovic.
13 Then I saw them all, but I don't know which one is
14 Tomislav or which one has another name.
15 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, madam.
16 I have no further questions of this witness.
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I
20 do not have any more questions. Thank you.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: I have a very minor question,
22 madam. I wonder whether you could clarify a matter as
23 a proper question of curiosity.
24 It struck me that this document, the Dutch
25 document relating to your appointment as a secondary
1school teacher, has the date of the 6th of July, '93.
2 However, it relates to an appointment to be made as
3 from the 16th of April, '93. How is it that it was
4 taken almost three months after the actual appointment?
5 A. Yeah, that's common in Holland, because you
6 get an appointment or you get your -- you are employed
7 as a teacher but the school is a part of the City
8 Council, but the administrative handlings, they come
9 always later. That's very normal in school.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, thank you. Thank
11 you so much.
12 All right. I think there are no other
13 questions. Thank you, madam, for testifying today,
14 thank you so much indeed. You may now be released.
15 (The witness withdrew)
16 JUDGE CASSESE: In five minutes, we will
17 adjourn. But before doing so, may I ask Counsel
18 Pavkovic about the list of witnesses for tomorrow?
19 Just one witness, only one?
20 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, Mr. President, tomorrow
21 we have only Andjelko Alilovic scheduled because a
22 witness refused and said she did not want to give
23 evidence here. We learned about that on the 1st of
24 this month, after we had submitted the timetable for
25 our witnesses, and that is why we had to go through it
1and change it once again.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: I was wondering whether one
3 of the witnesses for the 8th of July could also be
4 ready for tomorrow, just in case we get through with
5 Mr. Vidovic, so that we can have a reserve witness, one
6 of the three, for Thursday, if they are around in The
8 MR. PAVKOVIC: They will be arriving tonight
9 sometime after 9.00, or perhaps 10.00 tonight. Of
10 course, we had to take note of the expenses, and so the
11 witnesses arrive on the eve of. They will be coming as
12 envisaged by the original schedule, so they will be
13 here late tonight, and I'm really not sure whether they
14 would be up to appearing in the court tomorrow. But of
15 course we shall bear that in mind, and we shall be
16 seeing them tonight, and if any one of them feels
17 really strong, well enough to appear tomorrow, then of
18 course we shall inform you about it.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Well, let's make
20 an effort.
21 So we will adjourn now until tomorrow at
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
24 12.59 p.m., to be reconvened on
25 Wednesday, the 7th day of July,
11999, at 9.00 a.m.