1 Thursday, 8th July, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-16-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and
9 Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.
11 Mr. Biletic, could you please stand and make
12 the solemn declaration?
13 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, Mr. President,
14 could I interrupt for one moment, Sir?
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
16 MR. BLAXILL: The Prosecution has one concern
17 we would like to address Your Honours on very briefly,
18 and that is regarding the witness Mr. Slavko Marin who
19 was mentioned yesterday.
20 This is not the normal run of witnesses, in
21 terms that he was a designated alibi witness for the
22 special defence. As a result, of course, there has
23 been an investment of resources in a preliminary
24 interview with that particular witness, and we were
25 just wondering that taking account of the apparent
1significance of that person, we wonder whether the
2 non-attendance is simply a logistical problem that may
3 require him to be called later or something of that
4 nature, or whether indeed it is the fact that the
5 Defence either no longer intend to call him or, indeed,
6 he has refused to testify or something of that nature.
7 We feel perhaps in the circumstances it is appropriate
8 that we should know precisely why this witness, at this
9 stage, is suddenly dropped from the list.
10 That's the only issue I would like to raise,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Pavkovic,
13 could you clarify this matter?
14 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
15 The real reason for the non-appearance of
16 Slavko Marin at this moment, I don't know and I cannot
17 tell you. We did all that is necessary to do when a
18 witness is about to come. That was what we had agreed
19 upon, and we expected the witness Marin to be here.
20 I needed to tell you also that Defence
21 complied with the request of the Chamber and enabled a
22 meeting, an interview of the witness by the
23 Prosecution, as to the alibi referred to. On the 10th
24 of March, we had the interview with Mr. Slavko Marin
25 and with Franjic at the time. Now, in June, on the
110th of June, also an interview was conducted with
2 Mr. Biletic. We therefore complied with the decision
3 of the Chamber to enable such an interview not less
4 than a fortnight before their appearance before the
5 Court. That is what I wished to add.
6 However, as I have said, I really do not know
7 the real reasons for the absence of Mr. Slavko Marin.
8 I cannot confirm that Mr. Slavko Marin will not come or
9 that he will come. I simply need time to see what was
10 the reason. I shall do that this week. Mr. Slavko
11 Marin is an important witness for us.
12 I also have documentation showing my
13 correspondence with the Ministry, the Federation of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He works there. I indicated in my
15 letter and said that we expect this witness to turn up,
16 that he's very important for the defence of
17 Mr. Vladimir Santic. We want to see him here. I do
18 not see why the Prosecution should be concerned about
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
21 MR. BLAXILL: Well, Your Honours, firstly I
22 can confirm very much the cooperation we received from
23 my learned friend Mr. Pavkovic over these interviews.
24 We did, indeed, in full measure, and for that we are
1I appreciate my learned friend's dilemma, so
2 perhaps we can take it that Mr. Slavko Marin perhaps
3 awaits in the wings and maybe will be accommodated at a
4 later stage. I'm obliged to you. Thank you, Mr.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
7 So Mr. Biletic, could you please make the
8 solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
14 Counsel Pavkovic.
15 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 WITNESS: DAVOR BILETIC
17 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
18 Q. Good morning, Witness. It is a common
19 procedure for the witnesses to give their full name to
20 the Court, so will you please do so, and also give us a
21 few more usual particulars. Where were you born, when,
22 your family status, your current address?
23 A. My name is Davor Biletic. I was born in
24 Zenica on the 1st of August, 1964. I am married, the
25 father of two children. I don't know what else should
2 Q. Right. Mr. Biletic, I didn't hear, or
3 perhaps I simply wasn't following. Did you tell us
4 where you live now?
5 A. I live in Vitez on Petra Kresimira Street.
6 Q. Will you only make a pause between the end of
7 my question and the beginning of your answer because of
8 the interpreters.
9 Could you now tell us, where did you live
10 before you came to live in Vitez sometimes in 1992?
11 A. I have spent all my life in Zenica,
12 naturally, until 1992, and in Ive Andrica 9A Street in
14 Q. Since you tell us that you spent your whole
15 life in Zenica, could you tell us something about
16 Zenica? All I really want to know is what is the
17 ethnic structure of the Zenica population or, rather,
18 what was it at the time when you were there?
19 A. Ethnically speaking, the structure was -- I
20 think the majority were Muslims, and the rest were
21 Serbs and Croats. So about 50 per cent should be
22 Muslims, and the other half should have been Muslims
23 (sic) and Croats.
24 Q. Mr. Biletic, could you tell us something
25 about your education? What school did you come out of?
1A. Well, I came from the elementary school in
2 Zenica, and then the secondary medical school.
3 Q. So what is your occupation?
4 A. I'm a medical technician.
5 Q. What did you do? What was your job? Where
6 did you work?
7 A. After I came out of this secondary school, I
8 enrolled in high medical school straightaway.
9 Q. At that time when you enrolled, you had first
10 to serve the Yugoslav People's Army?
11 A. As soon as I finished my secondary school, I
12 went into the JNA, and when I came back from the JNA, I
13 couldn't find a job immediately in my profession, so I
14 waited. That is, I was a waiter, that is, for some
15 time, and after that I got a job with the Zenica
16 Hospital, and I worked there until 1992.
17 Q. What was your job or jobs in Zenica?
18 A. I worked for the regional health centre. It
19 was called Dzemal Bijedic at the time. I don't know
20 what it is called today. I was at the surgical
21 department, that is, intensive care unit.
22 Q. Until when did you work in Zenica?
23 A. I worked in Zenica, that is, until the
24 October or November 1992.
25 Q. What then? What kind of job did you have
2 A. After I left Zenica, I moved to Vitez because
3 my closest friend, who at that time worked for the
4 military police, he said that the military police were
5 looking for a military policeman. The pay was very
6 good, much higher than what I was getting at my former
7 job, and that was why I accepted it, that is, I decided
8 to get a job there.
9 Q. In other words, you moved to Vitez and got a
10 job with the military police?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When was that?
13 A. It was in November 1992.
14 Q. What is the name of your friend who mediated
15 in your getting the job there?
16 A. Mario Jurisic.
17 Q. And how long -- so you arrived in November
18 1992 in Vitez, and how long were you in the military
20 A. I was with the military police until 1997,
21 when the reorganisation took place, or rather when the
22 Federation army was established, and I still work for
23 the army of the Federation.
24 Q. I suppose that before you applied for the job
25 with the military police, you wanted to know what would
1be your duties and what were the tasks, what would be
2 your tasks in the military police, so that you would
3 know what you were getting into. Did you go to the
4 military police as a military policeman, or as a
5 medical technician?
6 A. Well, what should I call it? It's usually a
7 dual role. You were both as a military policeman and a
8 medical technician as the need arises. That is, I
9 would extend first aid, for instance, if -- perish the
10 thought -- something happened to someone.
11 Q. But wasn't there somebody with a higher
12 medical education than you in the military police, a
13 physician or something?
14 A. I don't -- no, there wasn't, and we still
15 don't have a physician. It is very difficult to find a
17 Q. Mr. Biletic, what was the responsibility of
18 the military police at the time? I mean, its principal
20 A. The task of the military police at that time
21 was the protection of facilities, protection of people,
22 control of roads, control of traffic.
23 Q. You are still with the army today, and I
24 presume you are quite knowledgeable as far as the
25 military organisation is concerned; could you tell us
1that today the military police still exercise the same
2 function as at that time?
3 A. I do not think that the responsibilities of
4 the military police change. I think it is like that
5 the world over. Protection of facilities, of people,
6 of communications, protection of very important
7 persons. For instance, protection of command posts,
8 military transport, and things like that. I mean,
9 these things do not change.
10 Q. And when you got the job there, where was
11 your workplace?
12 A. When I came there, my workplace was at the
13 explosives plant, the former Slobodan Princip Selo,
14 that is SPS, and I worked there for a month, or rather
15 about a month, because this was a plant of fundamental
16 importance because it was part of the military
17 industry, making explosives.
18 Q. And how long did you stay there?
19 A. For about a month.
20 Q. And after that?
21 A. And after that I worked at the Vitez Hotel.
22 Rather, I was with the security of the Vitez Hotel.
23 Q. You say "security of the hotel"; were you
24 guarding the hotel as a facility, or somebody in that
1A. We were guarding the hotel as a facility.
2 Naturally, those who were in the hotel, by the same
3 token, they were protected by us.
4 Q. You say you were a medical technician and
5 also a military policeman. Could you tell me, at that
6 time, who was your immediate superior in the military
7 police at the time?
8 A. My immediate -- my direct superior in the
9 military police was Ivo Brnada.
10 Q. Could you tell us, apart from the military
11 police which had its headquarters there at the hotel,
12 were there any other military personnel in the hotel?
13 A. Yes, of course, there were military
14 personnel. I used to see General Blaskic in the hotel,
15 Slavko Marin, and some other people. Yes, sure, there
16 were some other military people there.
17 Q. So could one say that the military police, or
18 rather you, provided security for them? For the
19 general, you say: Was he a general at the time,
20 General Blaskic? I think he was a colonel at the time;
21 whom did he represent there?
22 A. Well, let me tell you, I don't think he was a
23 colonel, even, then. I don't think there were any
24 ranks at the time. I mean, people discharged duties;
25 how should I put it?
1Q. In that hotel, the police also had their
2 premises. Could you tell us which were the premises
3 which the police were using?
4 A. The police were using a room on the ground
5 floor and some rooms on the third floor.
6 Q. How many soldiers, or rather how many members
7 of the military police, were accommodated there? Were
8 they all soldiers of the military police, or only some
9 of them?
10 A. There were, as a rule, 10 to 15 military
11 policemen resident there; that is, as far as I could
13 Q. And what was their duty, those who were
14 accommodated in the hotel?
15 A. Well, they were there to provide security for
16 that facility.
17 Q. You are saying that the responsibility of the
18 military police was to protect roads; could you tell
19 us, which roads do you mean, do you have in mind?
20 A. Yes, the military police provided security
21 for roads; that is, Puticevo, Nova Bila, Vitez,
22 Busovaca road.
23 Q. Now let us go back to those military
24 policemen who were accommodated in the hotel. You told
25 us that it was their duty to guard the hotel and people
1in it. Those policemen in the hotel, did they sleep
2 there also?
3 A. They did -- well, it depended. If they were
4 on duty, then they slept there. If not, then they went
6 Q. But in view of the needs for security, could
7 you tell us how many people -- that is, how many
8 members of the military police -- were there in the
9 hotel at any given time?
10 A. From 10 to 15 people.
11 Q. Did you sleep at the hotel?
12 A. At times I did, at times I went home. I
13 mean, when I could, I went home.
14 Q. Could you try to recall the names of some
15 persons who were members of the military police at the
16 time and who were at the hotel?
17 A. Well, I can remember a couple of people with
18 whom I had struck a friendship. Mario Jurisic, Ivo
19 Brnada, Nikica Safradin. That would be it.
20 Q. Mr. Biletic, when I say "at that time," I
21 mean, of course, between November '92 until the 16th of
22 April, 1993. So if I say "at that time," I mean that
23 particular period of time. Those individuals you have
24 just mentioned, did they discharge any special duties
25 or tasks as military policemen?
1A. No, they were just plain military policemen.
2 Q. And Mr. Ivo Brnada?
3 A. Ivo Brnada was our superior, our immediate
5 Q. Could you tell us -- I don't know if you know
6 that -- in addition to the military police accommodated
7 in the hotel, were there any other police in Vitez?
8 A. There was always, naturally, the civilian
9 police, of course. They looked after the civilian
10 structures of authority.
11 Q. You say the civilian police who looked after
12 the civilians, and so did the military police deal only
13 with those matters that had to do something with the
15 A. Well, yes, of course, the military police
16 dealt only with the army.
17 Q. So if a perpetrator of some wrongful act were
18 a member of the military police, then it would be the
19 duty of the military police to do something about it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So if an incident happened, if an event
22 happened involving military people, then it would be
23 the military police taking care of that particular
24 incident; is that so?
25 A. Yes. In that case, it would be the military
2 Q. And where was the seat of the military
3 police? I mean, the hotel.
4 A. Well, it could have been some 80 metres below
5 the hotel.
6 Q. And at that time, could you tell us if the
7 civilian police wore the same type of uniform as the
8 military police?
9 A. No, they were still using -- I mean, those
10 blue uniforms.
11 Q. Let us now go back to several more questions
12 about the hotel in which you were accommodated itself.
13 The Hotel Vitez in Vitez, how many entrances did it
14 have, or does it have?
15 A. Well, it had several entrances, but one used
16 only the front entrance, the main entrance into the
17 hotel. But there were about three or four entrances, I
19 Q. You say that only one entrance -- that is,
20 the main entrance -- was used; was it used by all those
21 who came to the hotel?
22 A. Well, one had to use this main entrance for
23 security reasons. I mean, because at that time we were
24 only an embryo of an army, and we were just learning
25 everything from scratch, so that we were using only
1that one front entrance. We had read somewhere that
2 for security purposes it would be better to have only
3 one main entrance because it would make it easier to
4 control the traffic there.
5 Q. Does that mean that other doors into the
6 hotel were locked up? That one couldn't get in or come
7 out through these other doors?
8 A. Yes, of course, they were locked, because
9 security would lose any purpose if one could enter at a
10 dozen different places. I mean, there would be no
11 sense in having any security. So we used only one
12 entrance, and all the other doors were locked.
13 Q. When you say that all the other doors were
14 locked, is that an assumption on your part in order to
15 show us that it stands to reason to control the
16 movement of persons, or was it within your terms of
17 reference that you went to check all these other doors
18 and see whether they were locked?
19 A. Yes, of course, they were locked. It was the
20 duty of the military policeman working at the reception
21 desk to go and see whether the doors were locked. The
22 doors were kept locked from the inside and outside.
23 They had bolts and locks.
24 Q. And you, who were involved in the security of
25 the hotel, were you on duty around the clock? Were you
1on duty around the clock?
2 A. Well, those who were at the reception desk,
3 they would have shifts of six hours; that is, work for
4 six hours and then have a rest of six hours. Those
5 guards who stood on duty outside, they would work for
6 two hours and have a four-hour rest.
7 Q. So there would be three persons on duty, if I
8 understood you properly: One at the reception desk and
9 two outside the hotel building itself; is that so?
10 A. Yes, it is. Yes, there were always three
12 Q. So those who were outside the hotel would
13 stand guard for two hours and the one at the reception
14 desk for six hours; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I apologise; I missed a question. Do you
17 know who kept the keys to the other doors of the hotel?
18 A. I think it was the director of the hotel. He
19 kept the keys.
20 Q. Are you sure?
21 A. Yes, I'm sure.
22 Q. He looked after them personally, or were they
23 in the offices somewhere?
24 A. Well, I think they were in the offices.
25 Q. You have just told us that there was a
1reception desk at the hotel?
2 A. Yes, there was.
3 Q. Could you please explain to all of us what
4 this looked like, what this place looked like where the
5 person on duty at the reception desk worked?
6 A. This was a desk and a chair right next to the
7 main entrance to the Vitez Hotel, so the person on duty
8 there would check the people going in and out.
9 Q. Can you tell me whether you, when you were at
10 the reception desk, kept a record of people entering
11 the hotel?
12 A. Of course, there was a book of people going
13 in and out, and when someone came in to visit, we would
14 write down when they had arrived, whom they had
15 visited, when they had arrived and when they had left.
16 Q. Did you note down every person who came to
17 the hotel?
18 A. No, we did not make records of the people
19 employed in the hotel; the cooks, the civilians who are
20 employed there all the time.
21 Q. Did you write down the name of a colleague of
22 yours, a military policeman who was not on duty, if he
24 A. No, we didn't. If we knew the person, we
25 didn't see any reason to control their movements.
1Q. You said that at the entrance, there was this
2 desk. Apart from this desk, was there any other spot
3 on the ground floor?
4 A. Well, there was an office where we spent our
5 time when we were not on duty.
6 Q. Was there a proper hotel reception there as
8 A. Yes, yes. It was behind our desk, some two
9 or three metres behind it.
10 Q. You said that behind the reception, there was
11 a room which was used by the military police as an
12 official room?
13 A. Yes. We might call it some kind of office.
14 Q. Can you tell me whether this office was used
15 by Mr. Vlado Santic, among others?
16 A. Yes, he used that office.
17 Q. Can you tell me how many people -- I
18 apologise. I have already asked this, so I withdraw
19 this question.
20 Can you tell me how many people would be on
21 duty at one point?
22 A. One person.
23 Q. Where was your place?
24 A. At the desk.
25 Q. So you were the person working six-hour
2 A. Yes. Yes, I worked six-hour shifts.
3 Q. Can you recall the name of the person working
4 as the hotel receptionist at that time?
5 A. Yes, I can, because her name is the same as
6 my wife's name. I only remember her first name. I
7 think it was Gordana.
8 Q. Mr. Biletic, I would now like to ask you to
9 recall the 15th of April, 1993, and my question is: On
10 the 15th of April, 1993, were you on duty at the hotel?
11 A. On the 15th of April, I was not on duty until
12 midnight. On that day, I was supposed to go home. My
13 best friend, Mario Jurisic, called me, but I had a
14 meeting with my girl friend who is now my wife.
15 Q. On that day, when did you take up your duty
16 at the desk?
17 A. At midnight.
18 Q. Did you rest up to that time?
19 A. Well, I did, yes.
20 Q. Did you sleep?
21 A. No. I went out. I had a date with my girl
22 friend. Of course, there was a disco in the hotel and
23 it was open, so we spent most of our time in the disco.
24 Q. How can we be sure today that it is the 15th
25 of April, 1993, you are now recalling?
1A. Well, because that was the first time I
2 experienced the horror of war.
3 Q. Tell me, Mr. Biletic, did you usually sleep
4 at the hotel or did you commute to Zenica?
5 A. Well, sometimes I slept at the hotel, and
6 sometimes I commuted to Zenica and went home.
7 Q. So when you got a job at the military police,
8 did you move to the hotel at once or did you commute
9 from Zenica to Vitez for a time?
10 A. Well, sometimes I commuted, sometimes I spent
11 the night at the hotel, depending on the situation, on
12 how I felt, on my mood.
13 Q. If we recall the 15th of April, 1993, you
14 said that you were with your girl friend who is now
15 your wife; you said that you spent the time up to
16 midnight. Can you tell me whether on that day, there
17 was anything unusual going on compared to the previous
19 A. I was not in the restaurant. As you said, I
20 was in the disco. The day was no different from the
21 days preceding it. The disco was quite full, as it was
22 every evening. Everything was normal.
23 Q. So you did not notice anything that would
24 tell you that there was an unusual situation around the
1A. No, I didn't notice anything. It was a
2 normal day.
3 Q. When I say "something unusual", I mean the
4 arrival or departure of people, of soldiers.
5 A. No. It was a normal day, like every other
7 Q. So you began your shift at midnight between
8 the 15th and 16th of April?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were supposed to stay on duty until
11 6.00 a.m.; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did you do after midnight? Can you tell
15 A. Well, of course I arrived at midnight. I
16 read a book. I will never forget it. I even remember
17 what the book was, the Aquatain Conspiracy by Ludlum.
18 I was supposed to wake up the people who were supposed
19 to stand guard outside the hotel in the morning.
20 Q. So at 2.00 a.m., did you wake up the guards
21 who were supposed to stand duty outside?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So you were supposed to wake up others at
24 4.00 to take up guard duty from 4.00 to 6.00?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. Can you recall today the names of at least
2 some of the persons you woke up that morning?
3 A. Well, I can only recall Berislav Margeta
4 because I was on good terms with him. That's why I
5 remember him. But since I had spent relatively little
6 time there, I didn't know the others.
7 Q. Well, I apologise. I make mistakes too. So
8 when did you wake him up, at 2.00 or at 4.00?
9 A. At 4.00.
10 Q. Can you tell us whether you were on your own
11 at the desk after midnight?
12 A. Yes, I was alone after midnight.
13 Q. Did anybody else come up to you?
14 A. No, no, only when the guards were changing
15 shifts, then they would pass by.
16 Q. Can you tell me whether you recall what
17 happened that morning?
18 A. Well, that morning, around 5.00 or maybe a
19 quarter past 5.00, Vladimir Santic came to work, as he
20 did every morning. After that, around half past 5.00,
21 05.30 hours, there were powerful detonations. It could
22 have been half past 5.00.
23 Q. I will ask you something else now. You said
24 that at around a quarter past 5.00, Vlado Santic
25 arrived as usual?
2 Q. You said "as usual", so this gives rise to a
3 further question. Does it mean he always arrived that
5 A. Yes. He was an early riser, and he always
6 arrived early.
7 Q. Where was he employed?
8 A. I've already mentioned that there was an
9 office behind the reception, and this is where he
10 worked or, rather, where he spent the time.
11 Q. Did Vladimir Santic come to work every day?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Please wait.
13 A. Yes, he came every day, except on Saturdays
14 and Sundays. But on working days, he came to work.
15 Q. So that morning when he arrived, you saw him?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you tell us again what time it was?
18 A. About a quarter past 5.00 or 20 past 5.00.
19 Q. How do you know?
20 A. Well, I know because there was a clock on my
21 desk, because I had to know when I had to wake up the
22 guards. I looked at the clock and I read the book, but
23 I was always aware of the time.
24 Q. So you had a clock or a watch on your desk so
25 that you could wake up the soldiers on time?
1A. Yes, the guards who were supposed to stand
2 guard outside.
3 Q. On that morning, did Vladimir Santic arrive
4 on his own?
5 A. Yes, he was alone.
6 Q. Can you tell me how he came? How did Vlado
7 Santic come to the hotel?
8 A. He came on foot.
9 Q. Are you sure that he came on foot?
10 A. I'm sure, because if he had come in some
11 other way, I would have heard the vehicle.
12 Q. So if somebody had given him a lift in a
13 vehicle, would you have registered this or would you
14 have noticed it?
15 A. I would have noticed it, because I had a good
16 view from the desk because there were panes of glass,
17 it was all glass. You could see outside, and also, of
18 course, you could hear a vehicle arriving.
19 Q. Do you know where Vlado Santic lived at that
21 A. Yes. He lived in the building of the chess
22 club. I don't know what the exact address is, but I
23 know that the chess club was in the same building.
24 Q. Can you tell me how far this is from the
1A. Perhaps five or ten minutes on foot.
2 Q. Did you ever go to visit Vlado Santic at his
4 A. Yes. If there was a need, for example, if
5 there was a traffic accident, we had to carry out an
6 on-site inspection, we would go to get Vlado Santic.
7 Q. Then you saw where he lived?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So that is how you were able to estimate the
10 time you needed to get to the hotel from his house?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Biletic, as you have told us today, you
13 were employed in the police for about five years?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell me how the military police were
16 trained in 1992 and 1993, up to April?
17 A. Well, the military police were --
18 Q. What they wore. Sorry, not how they were
19 trained; how they were dressed.
20 A. They wore camouflage uniforms.
21 Q. Can you tell me whether the military police
22 also had something to distinguish them from other
23 soldiers? Some kind of patches?
24 A. Yes. Well, they wore white belts.
25 Q. If we now recall that morning when Vlado
1Santic arrived, can you recall how Vlado was dressed
2 that morning?
3 A. He was dressed the same way he was every
4 morning, in a camouflage uniform. I know that he never
5 liked wearing boots. He always wore shoes.
6 Q. That morning, was he carrying a weapon?
7 A. Yes. He always carried a pistol.
8 Q. Did the other military policemen always carry
9 a pistol?
10 A. Yes, yes, those of us who had a pistol,
11 because the pistols there were issued, and most of us
12 carried pistols. They were Russian pistols.
13 Q. Can you tell us, then, whether Vlado was
14 dressed the way military policemen were usually dressed
15 that morning?
16 A. Yes, he was dressed the same as every
17 morning, in the usual way.
18 Q. Did all military policemen carry pistols?
19 A. As I said, some of them did not have pistols
20 because there weren't enough to go around.
21 Q. Did the military police have other kinds of
22 weapons at its disposal?
23 A. Yes, we had automatic rifles, Kalashnikovs.
24 Q. Did every policeman have one Kalashnikov?
25 A. Well, it was the same thing as with pistols.
1Not everyone could be issued with a rifle at that time,
2 not everyone could be armed.
3 Q. Did you, when you were coming to take up your
4 duties every day, have a Kalashnikov with you?
5 A. Only the two guards standing guard outside
6 had Kalashnikovs. The other rifles were locked up in a
7 kind of locker behind the reception.
8 Q. So only the policemen standing outside
9 carried other weapons, long weapons?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You said that the other long weapons were
12 locked up. Where was the room where the rifles were
13 locked up?
14 A. It was not a room, it was a locker. They
15 were lined up and there was a chain going through them,
16 and then there was a lock.
17 Q. You say that these weapons were locked up.
18 Who had access to the keys?
19 A. Well, we had to keep the weapons locked up
20 because sometimes one or two rifles would go missing,
21 and the keys were in the room where Vladimir Santic,
22 Ivo Brnada, and others spent the time.
23 Q. Can you tell me, at that time, did you know
24 about a plan for emergency situations?
25 A. Yes, there was a plan, if there was an
1attack, we would unlock the rifles. We would take the
2 rifles, and all the guards would run to their places,
3 because there is such a plan in every army in case of
4 emergency situations.
5 Q. So this plan envisaged that these rifles
6 would be taken, and who would take them, and where they
7 would go to stand guard?
8 A. Yes. Yes, that's what the plan included.
9 Q. On that morning of the 16th of April, 1993,
10 at about 5.00 or a quarter past 5.00, you saw Vlado
11 Santic at the entrance and at your desk; did you have
12 any conversation with him?
13 A. No, just the usual greetings: "Good morning,
14 what's new," and so on. That was the usual kind of
16 Q. After this usual greeting, where did Vlado
17 Santic go?
18 A. He went to the room I have already mentioned,
19 where he spent the time when he was working.
20 Q. Mr. Biletic, how well or not do you know
21 Vlado Santic?
22 A. Well, I can't say I knew him well, but we
23 would have a drink together sometimes, exchange a few
24 words. So he's an acquaintance of mine.
25 Q. Apart from the situations you mentioned when
1you went to fetch him at his house, you did not carry
2 on a private friendship with him?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. Do you know whether at that time Vlado had
5 any health problems?
6 A. Yes, I know because we talked about it,
7 because I was a medical technician, so sometimes he
8 would complain to me. He had problems with his
10 Q. Let us recall that morning when Vlado arrived
11 at a quarter past 5.00 or 20 past 5.00. What happened
12 next? You said there were some explosions; can you
13 describe what happened?
14 A. Well, at about half past 5.00, maybe a minute
15 or two later, first there was an extremely powerful
16 detonation. After this, I left my book and went to the
17 entrance of the hotel to see what was going on. After
18 that, there were several more detonations, which made
19 the glass, the windowpanes shake, and some of them
20 shattered. After that I withdrew from the windows and
21 stood behind a pillar.
22 Q. Could you determine the direction from which
23 these projectiles came?
24 A. No, I could not at the time, because I didn't
25 really know much about the army and the military.
1Being a medical technician, I knew more about medicine
2 than the army. But now that I have been in to the army
3 for such a long time, and all the additional training
4 that I had, now perhaps I could make a relatively
5 educated guess. One can never determine with certainty
6 where an explosion comes from, or rather where a
7 particular projectile has been fired from. Unless you
8 see it, you can never establish it with certainty.
9 Q. But apart from this artillery fire -- that
10 is, shells and so on and so forth -- was there any
11 infantry gunfire?
12 A. Yes, in addition to cannon fire and these
13 shells, there was also fire from rifles. There were
14 bullets whizzing all around.
15 Q. And the hotel, was it particularly subjected
16 to fire from all these weapons?
17 A. Yes, most of these shells and bullets were
18 falling around the hotel.
19 Q. When this thing that you are describing
20 happened, where were other military policemen?
21 A. Well, some five or six minutes after it all
22 started, they all ran down from the rooms in which they
23 were staying and ran down to the hotel lobby.
24 Q. Were the guards deployed outside the hotel,
25 those who were on the outside security?
1A. Well, yes. In all this melee that ensued, in
2 all this fracas that ensued, some people ran out,
3 snatched those rifles, and ran to posts they were
4 supposed to take in case of an attack.
5 Q. And where did you go?
6 A. After the alert, I went down to the main
7 entrance and took my position some three metres from
8 this entrance.
9 Q. Did you do that?
10 A. I did, yes.
11 Q. And at the moment when the panic that you
12 have just described began, and you took a position in
13 front of the hotel, in front of the main entrance, can
14 you remember if you perhaps saw Vlado Santic amongst
15 those soldiers?
16 A. No, I did not see Vlado Santic. But as I was
17 coming out, I only heard his voice. I mean, there was
18 confusion all around, and I was -- also, of course, I
19 was pretty frightened, like everybody else; I
20 panicked. I remember his voice. I remember some
21 details, for instance, saying, "What's this?" I just
22 heard a voice behind me, but I was already at the door.
23 Q. Could you confirm with certainty today that
24 it was Vlado Santic's voice that you heard?
25 A. Yes, of course, it was Vlado Santic's voice
1that I heard.
2 Q. And you were two or three metres away from
3 the front entrance, and you came out, and then?
4 A. Because I was in the open, in view of these
5 explosions, and behind me were all those huge glass
6 panes, I just froze, as we put it in our military
7 slang, behind this small wall, and hoped that nothing
8 would hit me.
9 Q. From the place where you took your position,
10 did you have an unimpeded view of the entrance into the
11 hotel, towards the receptionist's?
12 A. Well, yes, that place is about three, maybe
13 four metres from the entrance into the hotel.
14 Q. And was it possible for someone to go into
15 the hotel and come out of it without you noticing him?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember if you saw somebody else whom
18 you knew apart from Vlado Santic?
19 A. You mean through the hotel?
20 Q. Yes, yes.
21 A. I did. I can remember Ivica Franjic. He also
22 worked there, and he would come to work every morning.
23 He was the hotel manager, I believe. And two other
24 blokes, I believe, working for the communication
25 centre, or rather at the post office, which is not far
1from the hotel. I think the first name of one of them
2 is Kruno, and the other one's I just can't remember.
3 Q. You told us a while ago that you had a good
4 view of the entrance and that you could see who was
5 going in or coming out of the hotel?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you see the manager of the hotel come out
8 of the hotel?
9 A. Well, just a few moments after he had got in,
10 I think not more than a couple of minutes later, he
11 again left the hotel -- I mean, left -- I mean, he just
12 ran out of the hotel, rather than left the hotel.
13 Q. Mr. Biletic, how long did you remain at that
14 place which you just mentioned?
15 A. Well, that is -- with some interruptions, I
16 was there the whole day. I was there until about
17 11.00, when I felt rather peckish, so that I went into
18 the hotel to get a sandwich.
19 Q. How long did take it take to you get the
20 sandwich from the hotel?
21 A. Well, not more than five minutes or
23 Q. Did anyone go in or out of the hotel at that
25 A. The movement around the hotel was at the
1minimum. It was really very dangerous to move around
2 there, to go in or out, so that nobody moved.
3 Q. And where is that place where you took that
4 sandwich in relation to your place?
5 A. Well, it could have been some five or ten
6 metres, perhaps, from the front entrance.
7 Q. Could you see the entrance from that place?
8 A. No. No, but I just went in, took the
9 sandwich, and went out. It could have been perhaps
10 five minutes altogether that I was away from my post.
11 Q. Did anyone take your place there at the
13 A. No, nobody else would take my place there,
14 but there was usually somebody in the passage, in the
15 hallway. But no, there was nobody replacing me there.
16 Q. So it was around 11.00?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the explosions in the town and around the
19 hotel were just as intensive as in the morning?
20 A. No, the intensity of explosions and gunfire
21 had abated by that time, but it was still very
22 dangerous. But it was lesser then.
23 Q. And when did you see Vlado Santic again, I
24 mean, that morning?
25 A. Well, I saw him there as I was getting my
1sandwich, I saw Vlado Santic there. He had also
2 presumably come to have a bite or something, but at any
3 rate, I saw him there. When I took my sandwich, I was
4 coming out, and then I saw Vlado Santic there. It
5 could have been around 11.00.
6 Q. Could you tell us what Vlado was doing at the
8 A. He just passed by me and went into this --
9 what should I call it -- this restaurant, this mess.
10 Q. Do you remember if he was wearing the same
11 clothes as in the early hours of the morning, as you
12 told us?
13 A. Yes, he was wearing the same clothes.
14 Q. So wearing the same clothes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And tell me, at that time, sometime around
17 lunchtime, did any vehicle come to the hotel? Do you
18 know anything about that?
19 A. Yes, a vehicle of the former UNPROFOR -- that
20 is, the then-UNPROFOR, now SFOR -- an APC arrived.
21 Q. Do you know why they came there?
22 A. They brought two HVO members. I remember the
23 names. One was Prskalo, and the other one, Zoran
24 Pilicic or Milicic; I'm not quite sure.
25 Q. Do you know, why did they come?
1A. I did not know at the time. I mean, I don't
2 know why they came and why they came by an UNPROFOR
3 vehicle, why it was they who brought them.
4 Q. Could you tell us what happened to them in
5 front of the hotel?
6 A. As soon as they got off the APC, they said
7 goodbye to UNPROFOR members, and there was fire from
8 infantry weapons, and the two of them were hit. And I
9 do apologise, but they were hit in their behinds.
10 Q. You mean the hotel entrance that we talked
11 about was very dangerous for all those bent on entering
12 it or coming out?
13 A. Yes, of course, it was very dangerous. Even
14 I, when I just peeped out, I guess it was a
15 fragmentation bullet which fell just in front of me,
16 and I was hit in the shin. But the fragments of these
17 bullets are very small, so ...
18 Q. You said that you saw Vlado Santic at
19 lunchtime, sometime around 11.00 or after 11.00. Did
20 you see Vlado Santic again that day?
21 A. Yes, I did see Vlado Santic sometime around
22 18.00 in the evening, when I left the place where I was
23 and went to have my dinner.
24 Q. Now tell me, where was it that you saw Vlado
1A. Well, in that restaurant room, in the mess.
2 Q. During dinner?
3 A. Well, yes, around 6.00.
4 Q. And how long did you stay in the hotel that
6 A. Until about 20.00; that is, until it grew
8 Q. And could you tell us if Vlado Santic was
9 also in the hotel until that time?
10 A. In all likelihood, yes, because the movements
11 about were still at the minimum.
12 Q. And were you there after 20.00?
13 A. After 20.00, six or seven of us were taken by
14 a vehicle to the Bungalow, the so-called Bungalow.
15 Q. Before you left, did they tell you where you
16 were going?
17 A. Well, Ivo Brnada, the one we already
18 mentioned, he just remarked that we were going to the
19 Bungalow. And we went there.
20 Q. Did anyone tell you why you were going?
21 A. No, I don't think -- I think confusion still
22 reigned, and I don't think anybody knew, really, or
23 said anything. Somebody said to get ready, a van would
24 be coming.
25 Q. And was it also said that all of the members
1of the security from the hotel would go?
2 A. Yes, we all had to go.
3 Q. I'm not asking you if all had to go.
4 A. We were told that we would all be going.
5 Q. And it was also said that you would be going
6 to the Bungalow?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What did you know about the Bungalow before
10 A. Well, I knew that it was a restaurant or a
11 hotel of sorts.
12 Q. Did you go to the Bungalow before that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. How did you get to the Bungalow, those six or
15 seven of you?
16 A. We boarded then with the driver, and I
17 remember the driver, Nikica Safradin. So he was --
18 that is who took us by that vehicle to the Bungalow.
19 Q. Do you know how others got to the Bungalow?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Could you tell us, which road did you take?
22 A. Well, because the lights on the vehicle were
23 off, because the fire was still going on from infantry
24 weapons, mostly, and a shell here and there, we were
25 moving very slowly, by unknown -- taking an unknown
1route. Yes, we did make a round through the town, but
2 it was very dangerous to move around. The risk was
3 very high.
4 Q. You said that around 8.00 or, rather, around
5 20.00 was when you set off. Do you remember, how long
6 did this ride last?
7 A. Well, it lasted some 35, perhaps 40 minutes,
8 perhaps slightly longer. I cannot remember exactly,
9 but it took a long time.
10 Q. You said that there was six or seven of you
11 in that vehicle; is that correct?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. Could you now try to remember the names of
14 some of your fellow policemen?
15 A. Well, there was this one, as I have already
16 mentioned, Margeta, [indiscernible], Nikica Safradin.
17 I didn't know those others well enough, and a long time
18 has passed by. I cannot remember the names. I do
19 remember some faces, but not so the names.
20 Q. Could you tell us if Vlado Santic was one of
22 A. No, he was not with us.
23 Q. When you reached the Bungalow, did you see
24 Vlado Santic then?
25 A. When we got to the Bungalow, after a while,
1perhaps some 20 minutes later, I saw Vlado Santic
3 Q. How long did you stay in front of the
5 A. Oh, well, some 20 minutes, plus or minus, and
6 we straightaway headed for some positions. We were
7 taken there by some people, but it was dark and I
8 couldn't see my way around. Only after a certain time,
9 I learned that I was at a defence line called Kratina,
10 so at a kind of a defence line; Kratina, Kuber,
11 something like that.
12 Q. You told us when you came to the military
13 police or, rather, when you moved to Vitez, so you were
14 not really familiar with the area, were you?
15 A. No, I wasn't familiar with it, because I came
16 from Zenica, so I knew the area very little.
17 Q. How long did you stay on those positions?
18 A. Well, I think that at the time, we were there
19 for about ten days, more or less.
20 Q. That is, until the 26th of April, '93?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where did you go then?
23 A. Well, after those 10 or 11 days, I came back
24 to the hotel, to the Vitez Hotel, to work again with
25 the security there.
1Q. So you went back to your former duty?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see Vlado Santic afterwards?
4 A. Yes, I saw him when I came back to the hotel.
5 Q. Where did you see him?
6 A. I saw him in the hotel lobby.
7 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I should like
8 to conclude my examination now. That is, I do have
9 three photographs which I should like to show to the
10 witness to simply mark some of the locations that he
11 referred to. I think it might take more than five
12 minutes, which is as much as we have until the break,
13 and so do you think we should go into the break now or
14 should we continue?
15 JUDGE CASSESE: No, we should continue,
16 because actually today, since we have to stop at 1.00,
17 we'll take our break at quarter to 11.00. There's only
18 one break, and so we can continue now.
19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, will the usher
20 please take over these photographs for the Chamber and
21 the Prosecution and to place one of these photographs
22 on the ELMO so that the witness could comment on its
24 THE REGISTRAR: The first photograph will be
25 marked D10/6.
2 Q. Mr. Biletic, will you please take a look at
3 this photograph? This photograph was taken on the 10th
4 of June this year, and this is the entrance into Hotel
5 Vitez. Have there been any changes between the 16th of
6 April, 1993, and today? Is there any change in the
7 appearance of the hotel, as you see it in this
9 A. No, there has been no change.
10 Q. You told us that there was only one main
11 entrance into the hotel?
12 A. Yes. This is the one where we have "Hotel
13 Vitez" written, but we see on this photograph yet
14 another entrance, but it was locked and I do not think
15 it is in use today even.
16 Q. Will you please then mark with "1" the main
17 entrance into the hotel?
18 A. (Witness marks)
19 Q. And put "2" to mark the side entrance.
20 A. (Witness marks)
21 Q. Thank you. Mr. Biletic, you told us that you
22 had come out and were in front of the hotel. Could you
23 roughly show where the position was? I'm afraid I was
24 a very poor photographer. I didn't take really a good
25 view, but could you please try to show us --
1THE INTERPRETER: Could the other microphone
2 of the witness be switched on, please?
3 MR. PAVKOVIC:
4 Q. Could you put an "X" next to the place and
5 the number "3"?
6 A. Well, it should be somewhere where this
7 vehicle is (indicating), perhaps a metre, a metre and a
8 half, the very edge of the building, the wall.
9 Q. So at this place where you put that "3", that
10 is the place where that morning, on the 16th of April,
11 1993, you spent the whole day, practically?
12 A. Yes, the whole day, practically.
13 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. Now, Mr. Biletic,
14 I should like to show you another photograph taken at
15 the same time and, Mr. Usher, will you please take care
16 of them. Give them to the Chamber and the
18 THE REGISTRAR: The second photograph will be
19 marked D11/6.
20 MR. PAVKOVIC:
21 Q. Mr. Biletic, is that the receptionist's area
22 and the desk?
23 A. Yes. This is the receptionist's here behind
24 these flowers.
25 Q. I already told you that this photograph was
1taken this year, but is it the same as it was on the
2 16th of April, 1993?
3 A. Yes, it is the same.
4 Q. So will you now please put a cross next to
5 the place where your desk was, and then put a "1" next
6 to it.
7 A. Well, the desk was about here (indicating),
8 except that it was placed lengthways as against -- that
9 is, perpendicular to the receptionist's.
10 Q. So behind that desk, we see the
11 receptionist's desk here. Could you put "2" next to
12 the receptionist's desk?
13 A. (Witness marks)
14 Q. Thank you. Now tell me, is that the area
15 where you heard Vlado Santic's voice as you were coming
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is that the area where you saw Vlado Santic
19 the first time when he came for work?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. PAVKOVIC: Right. Now I should like to
22 show you yet another photograph, and I shall ask you to
23 comment on it, only in demonstration of some of the
24 things you said today. Usher, will you please take
25 care of these?
1For the record, I would like to -- I
2 apologise. For the record, I would like to repeat that
3 this photograph 2 was taken on the 10th of June this
5 Q. Are there any changes compared to the time
6 that we are talking about today?
7 A. I can't see any changes. Everything is the
9 Q. So this is the receptionist's area we just
10 talked about?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Behind the reception, and this is where the
13 coat of arms is, we see a door. Is that the entrance
14 to the rooms you talked about which were used by the
15 military police?
16 A. Yes, behind this door is the room where the
17 military police spent their time.
18 Q. Could you mark that door with the number "1"?
19 A. (Witness marks)
20 MR. PAVKOVIC: That is all. Thank you,
21 Mr. Biletic. I have no further questions for you.
22 Thank you, Mr. President.
23 THE REGISTRAR: The third photograph will be
24 marked D12/6.
25 MR. PAVKOVIC: I apologise. I forgot to
1tender these three photographs into evidence as Defence
3 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection from the
4 Prosecution, so they are admitted into evidence.
5 I assume there's no cross-examination by
6 other Defence counsel, so we can move to the
7 Prosecution. I don't see anyone.
8 MR. PAVKOVIC: No, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill.
10 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President, Your
12 Mr. Biletic, good morning to you. My name is
13 Michael Blaxill, and I am one of the prosecuting
14 counsel in this case. In view of what you've said here
15 today, I do have a few questions for you.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
17 Q. Sir, can you tell me how many entrances or
18 exits there were on the ground floor of the Hotel
20 A. On the ground floor, there were four, four
22 Q. On floors above that, were there any fire
23 escape type of exits?
24 A. Well, there was a fire escape which I have
25 already mentioned, yes.
1Q. Now, you've said that the keys for all the
2 doors of the building that were locked were kept in the
3 hotel director's office; is that so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When you did desk duty like you did on the
6 night of the 15th to the 16th of April, did you have
7 any personal duty to check the doors or to check the
8 keys, or was that not part of your duties?
9 A. Well, it was usually checked by Ivo Brnada,
10 who was our commander, and on several occasions I
11 checked it myself. And the guards standing outside
12 would report if anything was wrong.
13 Q. So if I can move to the specific night of the
14 15th to the 16th of April, 1993, did you in fact
15 perform any check that night or was that done by other
17 A. I personally did not check those doors that
19 Q. Now, you were in a battalion of the military
20 police. That was the military police of the HVO, was
21 it not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I believe your unit was known as the 4th
24 Battalion. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. Within that battalion, is it correct they had
2 a number of companies, one of which was based at the
3 Hotel Vitez, or the command of it; is that correct?
4 A. I don't know, I couldn't say, because I was
5 just an ordinary soldier or military policeman, and I
6 did not know what the organisation was or how many
7 companies there were.
8 Q. So let's take it from your position. Did you
9 form part of a kind of platoon of people, and if so,
10 how many people were in that platoon or group that you
11 belonged to? If you recall, please tell me.
12 A. Well, perhaps we might call it a security
13 platoon for the security of facilities.
14 Q. All right. The commander of that platoon was
15 Mr. Brnada; is that right?
16 A. Yes, I knew only Mr. Brnada as my superior.
17 Q. But you said that the military police that
18 you belonged to overall also had duties for road
19 security and looking after traffic matters and things
20 like that, so presumably there were other platoons,
21 were there, of people to do those duties?
22 A. Yes, of course. It is what I said means that
23 there was a platoon taking care of traffic.
24 Q. Is it also a fact that within the overall
25 structure, there was what they called an anti-terrorist
1platoon, a special type of unit? Did you recall
2 anything of that nature?
3 A. I can't say exactly whether there was an
4 anti-terrorist platoon, because it was just being
5 established. We were only beginning to establish our
6 army. We were just learning. It would be different
7 now, after we have gone through military training. We
8 know how an army has to be set up. But at that time,
9 there was a lot of confusion, so I can't say whether
10 there was an anti-terrorist platoon. But as far as the
11 traffic platoon is concerned, they were ordinary
12 military policemen. They were not specialists. They
13 weren't specially trained even for traffic, let alone
14 terrorism, combating terrorism.
15 Q. Does the name "Jokers" mean anything to you
16 in the context of military police?
17 A. Not in the context of the military police,
18 but I have heard about them.
19 Q. What was your impression of what the Jokers
20 were? Can you say what sort of unit they were?
21 A. I have no idea. I can't say, as a military
22 policeman or a medical technician. I cannot know at
23 that time who or what the Jokers were.
24 Q. Let's move to the location of the Bungalow
25 which you eventually went to on the night of the 16th.
1Did you know at that time what the Bungalow was, in
2 terms of any military people who were based there?
3 A. All I knew, that the Bungalow was some kind
4 of catering facility on the road. I didn't know that
5 there were any soldiers stationed there.
6 Q. Now, on the evening of the 15th of April, you
7 say you reported for duty on the desk at midnight; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was everything quiet in the hotel at that
12 A. Yes, yes. Perhaps a few people were watching
13 television at that time, but it was very quiet.
14 Q. Do you recall anybody entering the hotel or
15 leaving the hotel, say, between midnight and the time
16 you woke the next guard shift at 2.00?
17 A. The guard -- the shifts outside were changed,
18 and I think that from midnight until 2.00 a.m., no one
19 came in.
20 Q. How many people were physically on guard on
21 each shift? How many men were on duty?
22 A. Between -- there were always between 10 to 15
24 Q. Physically on duty at one time? I mean how
25 many were there per shift of guys who would actually be
2 A. Three men.
3 Q. The others would be resting, waiting their
4 turn; is that right?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. Now, as far as you were aware, in the early
7 hours of the 16th of April, this was, I guess, just a
8 night's duty like any other; would that be fair to say?
9 A. Yes, it was just an ordinary night.
10 Q. So basically you spent some, I would imagine,
11 some rather boring hours just sitting at the desk, but
12 you would occupy your time by reading your book?
13 A. Yes. It wasn't boring, because it was a very
14 good book. He was a very good writer, so I wasn't
15 bored in that way.
16 Q. And it seems that nothing happened during the
17 night that caused you any sudden concern or made that
18 night any different to any other night; you simply had
19 to make sure you woke up the guards at the right
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill, should we
23 perhaps take our recess now?
24 MR. BLAXILL: I think it is an opportune
25 moment, yes, Your Honour.
1JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill?
5 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Mr. Biletic, on the night in question, the
7 15th to 16th of April, 1993, was General Blaskic -- or
8 then, I believe, Colonel Blaskic -- in residence at the
10 A. Yes, I think he was in the hotel.
11 Q. And was Mr. Slavko Marin also in the hotel?
12 A. I'm not sure whether he slept in the hotel,
13 but I think I saw Slavko Marin in the morning, which
14 means that he probably was in the hotel.
15 Q. From where you were doing your duty at the
16 desk, would you know whether those gentlemen would be
17 working in the night? I mean, if they were working in
18 their command centre, would you have knowledge of that?
19 A. No, I wouldn't be able to know that.
20 Q. And just to check another aspect, possibly,
21 of your duties, or not, if any military orders were
22 issued by those people at any time, would they in any
23 way involve you on the desk, to pass them on to
24 someone, or to have them pass by you?
25 A. No. My duty was security. I was only
1interested in who was going in and out. I had no
2 control over other things.
3 Q. From the performance of those duties, do you
4 recall whether Mr. Blaskic and his officers used
5 couriers to come in and collect stuff and take stuff
7 A. I don't know what they used or who they
8 used. Perhaps there was a method, but as an ordinary
9 military policeman, I was not interested in that, and I
10 wasn't able to know that.
11 Q. So at the present time, sir, we basically
12 have a situation that this was a very unremarkable
13 night. It was quiet, it was boring, but you at least
14 had the stimulus of a good book to read. Would that
15 sum up the evening?
16 A. Yes, that's probably a good description of
17 that night. If I had supposed that any kind of
18 conflict or something was going to happen, I would
19 probably have got my parents and my brother out of
20 Zenica. They spent the whole war there. If I had
21 known something was going to happen, I would have
22 brought my parents to Vitez so they could be with me.
23 Q. So we now move to the early part of the
24 morning when people start to arrive for work. Was
25 Mr. Vlado Santic the first person to turn up, to your
2 A. Yes, he was the first to come to work. He
3 usually did.
4 Q. Now, in the scheme of things, you said your
5 immediate superior was Mr. Brnada; but to your
6 knowledge, was Mr. Santic senior to Brnada in the
7 military police?
8 A. I don't know what the chain of command was at
9 that time, and I can't say whether he was senior to
10 Mr. Brnada.
11 Q. You say you were serving in a platoon that
12 was based at the Hotel Vitez, sir, and you didn't know
13 who was the most senior military policeman in the
15 A. I wasn't interested. I knew of only one
16 superior to me, and he was the one I was to turn to and
17 the one who gave me orders if there was anything I had
18 to do.
19 Q. But in your dealings with Mr. Santic, you
20 surely must have found out something as to what he
21 did. I believe you said you had had a coffee or a
22 drink with him from time to time. Did you not know
23 roughly what his position was?
24 A. Yes, I knew that he was an investigator, that
25 he carried out on-site inspections when there was a
1traffic accident, which means he wasn't an ordinary
2 policeman, he knew more than others did, because you
3 had to have special training to do that kind of
5 Q. Did Mr. Brnada ever say to you who his boss
7 A. We never went into that kind of thing.
8 Q. Now, sir, was it dark or was it light at the
9 time Mr. Santic arrived at the hotel?
10 A. Well, it was semi-light, semi-dark. It was
11 neither light nor dark.
12 Q. And Mr. Santic arrived, and he arrived in
13 every way as he normally did. He was dressed the same,
14 he greeted you in the same way. It was, again,
15 unremarkable that he should turn up then; is that
17 A. Yes, absolutely. It was a normal day.
18 Q. So in fact, Mr. Biletic, there would have
19 been nothing particular that would make you notice the
20 time that specific day; in fact, is it not that you
21 just had the impression that things were as normal? To
22 the best of your recollection, that was the time?
23 A. Well, as I have already said, if I had known
24 that anything was happening or was about to happen, of
25 course I would have taken care of my parents. I would
1have let them know that they should get out of Zenica.
2 I wouldn't have left them there for a year.
3 Q. So would it be fair to say that you assumed
4 that it was the usual time that Mr. Santic arrived,
5 rather than specifically checking on the clock? That's
6 what I'm trying to suggest, sir.
7 A. Well, since I was sitting at the desk -- it
8 was like this (indicating), but it was a bit longer --
9 so it was my custom to look at the clock all the time
10 because it was -- the time was drawing near when I was
11 supposed to wake up the next guard shift, so I kept
12 glancing at the clock. And when he was passing by and
13 I looked up, I glanced at the clock because I was
14 thinking about having to wake up the next guard shift.
15 Q. So Mr. Santic has now arrived for work; how
16 long was it, do you think, between that arrival and the
17 start of the detonations?
18 A. Perhaps about 15 or 20 minutes. I can't be
19 precise to the minute.
20 Q. And the moment you heard those first
21 detonations, what did you do, exactly? What was the
22 very first thing you did?
23 A. Well, I'll tell you, I stated that I was
24 going to tell the truth, so I'm going to tell you that
25 I was more frightened than ever in my life. When the
1detonations began, I looked for shelter because there
2 was a lot of glass near my desk, and I was afraid of
3 being hurt by the glass or something else that might
4 come in.
5 Q. And so this shelter, was this within the
6 building, initially, inside the building?
7 A. Inside the building, nearby, there was a
8 pillar. It was near the staircase.
9 Q. So you took cover from the -- obviously from
10 the risk of flying glass -- behind the pillar. And
11 then what happened after that?
12 A. After that, chaos set in. People came out of
13 their rooms, there was confusion, chaos.
14 Q. Was there much shouting and voices competing
15 with each other as people spoke?
16 A. In the beginning, yes, there was a lot of
18 Q. And of course we have the additional fact
19 that there are shells falling and there are bullets
20 flying around the building, to add to the confusion and
21 the noise. Did you receive any kind of instructions
22 then as to what to do?
23 A. Of course. Someone unlocked the rifles, so
24 we took our rifles, and every guard went to his post.
25 Q. Do you remember who unlocked the rifle rack?
1A. Truth to tell, I have no idea. I just can't
3 Q. Do you recall if any one of your colleagues
4 spoke to you, sort of said, "Hey, grab a rifle," or
5 something? Did anybody speak to you directly?
6 A. Everything was happening very quickly, very
7 fast. I mean, when it calmed down a little bit, after
8 we pulled ourselves together, after some 10 or
9 15 minutes, then yes, we knew the procedure, we knew
10 what we had to do, and then awaited what would happen
12 Q. Do you recall who actually handed you a
13 rifle? Or did you take it yourself from the rack?
14 A. I did it. I did it myself.
15 Q. And you then, I believe, went outside the
16 front of the Hotel Vitez?
17 A. Yes. Yes, I came out.
18 Q. How long do you think it was between your
19 hearing the first detonation and your leaving the
20 building to take a post outside?
21 A. Well, it could have been an hour; perhaps
22 less, perhaps more. I'm not really sure. 40,
23 50 minutes, an hour. I'm not sure about the time.
24 Q. So you are saying from the first detonations
25 you were actually in the building for an hour, nearly
1an hour, before you went outside? I believe you said
2 during that hour, if that's the time period, you didn't
3 actually see Mr. Vladimir Santic -- is that right? --
5 A. No, I did not, no. After he came to work, I
6 did not see him again.
7 Q. Well, having given us the description you
8 have, of a babble of voices, you can't remember who
9 spoke to you directly, there's chaos, there's noise,
10 there's guns going off, are you sure now that you can
11 say that you recognised the voice of Vlado Santic
12 saying, "What is this?" That's a remarkable thing to
13 remember, sir, with respect, in all that chaos, isn't
15 A. Some details stuck in my mind as if in a
16 slow motion film. For instance, windowpanes bursting,
17 and Vlado Santic's voice. I'm positive that it was his
18 voice. I mean, one remembers some details, and others
19 one doesn't. But I remember it as I was going out. It
20 was some two or three metres behind me, and I just
21 heard his voice distinctly. These are moments when one
22 simply does not remember anything, but it registers
23 somehow. It just sticks in one's mind.
24 Q. Where were you when you noticed the arrival
25 of Mr. Franjic, the hotel manager?
1A. I was behind that pillar.
2 Q. And you say that a few minutes later, you ran
3 out of the building again; is that right?
4 A. Yes, yes, quite. Yes.
5 Q. And was this by the front door, you say?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. And is that just -- I mean, again, is there
8 any special reason why you should remember that fact,
9 when you consider the overall chaos of things going on
10 around you?
11 A. I know, that is, that immediately after that
12 manager, Ivica Franjic, two other blokes came in. I
13 remembered one of them, and we were rather close; his
14 name was Kruno. And that is why I remembered it,
15 because Franjic also came in every morning. He had to
16 take care of the menu, or whatever he had to do as
17 hotel manager.
18 Q. You then say he ran from the building, but
19 wasn't it true that at that time the front door was, I
20 believe you said, a very dangerous place to use? Isn't
21 that so?
22 A. So it was, very dangerous. But I ran out,
23 and so did Franjic. He was moving very fast. You know,
24 there were such intervals of time when, for some five
25 or ten minutes, a ghost-like silence would reign, and
1there would be this lull, which was like a ghost-like
2 lull, and we would use that to get out.
3 Q. Is there any possibility you might be
4 mistaken on that?
5 A. I do not think so.
6 Q. So you took up station outside the Hotel
7 Vitez, and you found protection behind a wall; is that
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. You stayed there at least until something
11 around 11.00 in the morning, did you then?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was the building still under heavy fire
14 either by artillery or small arms at that time?
15 A. There was still infantry fire and some
16 artillery, but intensity had significantly abated as
17 against what was happening in the early morning.
18 Q. So you're saying the conditions had eased
19 sufficiently that it was safe enough to go and find
20 something to eat rather than remain behind the wall?
21 A. I don't really know. It didn't really matter
22 whether I thought the situation had significantly
23 calmed down or not. I was simply famished, and I
24 decided I had to go and get something to eat or I might
25 have fainted.
1Q. So you went back inside the Hotel Vitez and
2 found something to eat at the canteen area, is that
3 right, or restaurant?
4 A. Yes, the restaurant.
5 Q. You saw Mr. Santic there at that time, 11.00?
6 A. Well, I couldn't say exactly to the minute,
7 but it could have been at 11.00, 11.15 that I saw
8 Mr. Santic.
9 Q. Were there any other people at that time in
10 there taking a break of some description?
11 A. I cannot tell you that, because I simply got
12 the sandwich and went back to the place where I had
13 been from the beginning.
14 Q. Now, when you deployed to that position
15 outside Hotel Vitez, had you received an order from
16 anybody to do that?
17 A. That was a post assigned to me by that plan,
18 by that plan of alert, of alarm. If anything happened,
19 then I would have to go to that particular post.
20 Q. So this was a kind of standing order for an
21 emergency, and you just simply followed that order;
22 that's correct?
23 A. Yes. Yes, you might say that, in case of an
24 emergency, an alarm or something.
25 Q. So you then returned to your position outside
1the building. Do you remember if any people were
2 coming and going, say, around midday time?
3 A. Around midday? I wouldn't say so, no. The
4 movements were reduced to a minimum, because at that
5 time people still didn't know what was going on.
6 Nobody could give any exact information as to what was
7 going on or what was the problem.
8 Q. So is it correct that then essentially for
9 the rest of the day, you just remained on guard until,
10 I think, about 18.00 hours? You remained on guard at
11 that location outside the building; is that right?
12 A. Yes, yes. I remained at that same place.
13 Q. Now, you have made reference to the arrival
14 of an UNPROFOR vehicle and its passengers getting out
15 to enter the hotel and being wounded. Now, what time
16 of day do you say that vehicle came to Hotel Vitez?
17 A. It was in the morning. It could have been
18 around 10.00, but I'm not sure. I remember that
19 scene. I do not know the time, but I remember that
20 scene when they were wounded, those two. That is,
21 these were only slight injuries. Thank God nothing
22 serious happened.
23 Q. Now, in another trial in this Tribunal, that
24 of General Blaskic, there has been evidence given by,
25 in fact, Mr. Marin relating to that incident, and that
1was to the effect that Mr. Zoran Pilicic, for one, had
2 been to a meeting between the parties, the Bosnian army
3 people and the HVO, and that returning to the Hotel
4 Vitez and getting out of an UNPROFOR vehicle, he had
5 been shot and wounded, as you have described. The only
6 thing is both that witness, Mr. Marin, and indeed
7 General Blaskic himself say that happened on the 17th
8 of April, which would be a day later. Have you any
9 observation you can give me on that, sir?
10 A. I think that it was Mr. Prskalo who was
11 wounded, and Zoran Prskalo perhaps, but the entrance
12 was under fire all the time. I can't really say, but I
13 do think it was on the 16th.
14 Q. Now thinking again about it, sir, are you
15 saying you can't be absolutely sure?
16 A. I believe it happened on the 16th.
17 Q. You then encountered Mr. Santic again at
18 about 18.00 hours that afternoon, the 16th of April; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, around 6.00, around 6.00.
21 Q. How long were you in his presence at that
22 time? I mean did you just pass each other by, or were
23 you in his presence for a few minutes, or what was the
24 nature of that encounter?
25 A. Well, it could have been three or four
1minutes or even less perhaps, because we had all got
2 there to have a meal in the restaurant.
3 Q. So if I can encapsulate, and I hope that I do
4 so correctly, Mr. Biletic, you see Mr. Santic for a few
5 seconds at around 5.00, you see him again very briefly
6 around 11.00, and you see him again briefly around
7 18.00 hours in the afternoon; is that a fair assessment
8 by me?
9 A. Why, yes, yes.
10 Q. Then after your dinner, you had a couple of
11 hours until 8.00. What were you doing during that
12 period? Were you back on guard or were you stood down
13 to have some rest?
14 A. No, I did not go back to guard there. I sat
15 there in the restaurant for a while, and I even fell
17 Q. So I would imagine then, sir, the fighting or
18 the shelling and the shooting must have died down
19 considerably by that time for you to be able to relax
20 enough and sleep.
21 A. Honestly speaking, I do not think so, but I
22 was simply so exhausted that I simply dropped off. I
23 did close my eyes. But yes, yes, it was less
24 intensive, both the cannon fire and the infantry fire.
25 Q. Then around 20.00 hours, Mr. Brnada instructs
1six or seven of you to go across to the Bungalow, and
2 you left Hotel Vitez by vehicle. What were the
3 conditions at that time, sir? What were the conditions
4 in terms of any shooting or shelling? Was it still
6 A. Yes, it was. The fire was still going on.
7 One could hear the shooting, but it was of a much
8 lesser intensity than in the beginning. The situation,
9 nobody knew what the situation was, and if you don't
10 know what is happening and what is the situation, then
11 of course it is dangerous.
12 Q. You were driven down from Vitez. Was that on
13 the main road, to your recollection? I'm not
14 absolutely certain if you said that. From the main
15 road towards Nadioci where the Bungalow was?
16 A. As I have already said, I am from Zenica, and
17 we travelled with our lights -- with car lights off. I
18 could not really say where we were passing because it
19 was already -- the night had already fallen and I'm not
20 really familiar with the area.
21 Q. Let us say, then, from what little you may
22 have seen from the inside of the vehicle, did you
23 appear to be on a properly made road or was it on some
24 little dirt track? I mean could you tell the
25 difference to that extent?
1A. Well, we would spend some time on the
2 asphalt, perhaps a few minutes on the asphalt, but I
3 think -- I know that we made a circle around the town
4 to avoid those areas exposed between the buildings, but
5 I'm really not certain. I really don't know which
6 route we took and whether it was macadam or asphalt.
7 By that time, I was really quite confused and quite
9 Q. So you then arrived at the Bungalow. Were
10 there many soldiers present at the Bungalow at that
12 A. I cannot say how many of them, but roughly
13 there was a group of soldiers. How many exactly, I
14 could not say, because it was dark already and we did
15 not go into the Bungalow when we arrived.
16 Q. So you stopped outside the Bungalow. So in
17 fact were these soldiers, however many, were they also
18 outside the Bungalow itself?
19 A. Well, several, yes, there were several of
20 them in front of the Bungalow, moving about.
21 Q. In relation to the building of the Bungalow
22 itself, where was Mr. Vlado Santic when you saw him?
23 A. I did not quite understand the question.
24 Sorry, what do you mean "in relation to the building"?
25 Q. I'll make myself clearer. When you arrived
1at the Bungalow, you said you saw Mr. Vlado Santic.
2 Where was he? Was he outside the building, was he
3 standing in the road; can you tell me?
4 A. He was in front of the building.
5 Q. Do you recall if he said anything when you
6 and your colleagues pulled up outside?
7 A. I don't remember. I don't think he said
8 anything, but I'm not sure.
9 Q. Did you get out of the vehicle at all?
10 A. Yes, yes, we did.
11 Q. Can you recall from whom the instructions
12 came for you to go up to the lines?
13 A. Well, it was Ivo Brnada who said it. He must
14 have talked to someone, and that one had told him that
15 we would be going to the line, so we were assigned a
16 guide and went to the line.
17 Q. Did you, in fact, see Mr. Brnada talk to
19 A. No, not really, I did not see Mr. Brnada talk
20 to anyone.
21 Q. If I understand you correctly, sir, after
22 that you served ten days at the lines in Kratine,
23 returning to Vitez on the 26th of April. Is that
24 correct, is that right?
25 A. Yes. I learned afterwards that that line was
1called Kratine or Kuber, and after some 10 or 11 days,
2 I came back to Vitez. It could have been 10 or 11
3 days. I'm not quite sure how long I spent there.
4 MR. BLAXILL: May I have your indulgence for
5 a moment, please, Your Honours.
6 That concludes my questioning. Thank you
7 very much, Your Honours. Thank you, Mr. Biletic.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
9 Counsel Pavkovic.
10 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Re-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
12 Q. Mr. Biletic, on the 16th of April, 1993, when
13 you saw Vlado in the morning, and then until 22.00 or,
14 rather, 20.00, before you went to the Bungalow, could
15 Vlado Santic have left the hotel without your seeing
16 him from the post which you held?
17 A. Nobody could go through the main entrance
18 without my seeing him. That is why I was posted there.
19 Q. You said that other entrances were locked.
20 Does that mean that people could not use any other
22 A. I suppose one could not go out through other
24 Q. I do not understand. Why do you say "I
25 suppose"? Are you sure about that?
1A. Well, since those entrances were locked both
2 from the inside and from the outside, I mean that one
3 could not use those entrances.
4 Q. Mr. Biletic, have you heard about
5 special-purpose units?
6 A. Yes, I have heard about their existence.
7 Q. Were those special-purpose units part of your
9 A. I had no way of knowing that, nor can I say
10 anything about it. Of course, I knew people who worked
11 with me because I was there for a very short -- I had
12 worked for the military police for a very short time,
13 and I simply had no way of knowing anything.
14 Q. To make it quite clear, you said that you
15 were a member of a unit, the task of which was to
16 provide security; is that true?
17 A. Yes, it is. My unit was guarding facilities,
18 people, roads, like any other military police in the
19 world, I suppose.
20 Q. So within that unit, and I'm not going into
21 its strength or whether it was a platoon, a company,
22 whatever, but within that unit of yours, were there any
23 individuals who could be said to have belonged to a
24 special-purpose unit, or were they only assigned to
25 security, for security purposes?
1A. My unit was responsible only for security, as
2 I have said.
3 Q. But did Jokers -- was that the name of the
4 special-purpose unit, Jokers?
5 A. I don't know. At that time, I had no way of
6 knowing that Jokers existed or who they belonged to. I
7 really cannot say who was their commander. I really
8 don't know and didn't know about those details.
9 Q. Yes, I understand you. I understand that you
10 were just a plain, ordinary policeman and that you had
11 nothing to do with military issues, but what I'm asking
12 you has nothing to do with the knowledge about some
13 very important military matters. My question is very
14 simple. At that time, you did not know about Jokers?
15 A. I said I had heard about Jokers, but I did
16 not know what they were. I already said at the very
17 beginning that I had heard about Jokers, but I did not
18 know what their duties were or --
19 Q. You said that Vlado Santic was clever, and
20 you did not see him as an ordinary policeman; is that
22 A. No, I do not think he was an ordinary
23 military policeman, because one must know certain
24 things. I was not an ordinary soldier, a policeman,
25 because I know how to give an injection or infusion or
1something like that. An ordinary policeman, military
2 policeman, could hardly know that.
3 Q. So perhaps he knew certain things and had
4 some duties, but at that time you did not know exactly
5 what was his rank?
6 A. Well, yes, and others treated him with
7 deference, with respect. I didn't know what he was,
8 but I know he went out to do on-site investigations in
9 case of traffic accidents or perhaps an offence
10 committed by a military policeman or a military person.
11 Q. You told us that at that time, it was all in
12 a very early stage, an embryonic stage, and that there
13 were no ranks at the time such as are common in an army
14 and on the basis of which one can conclude who is who?
15 A. Well, naturally there were no ranks at the
16 time. The ranks, that is, began -- that is, I was
17 accorded a rank in '95. I doubt if anyone had any rank
18 prior to '95. Naturally, in the army of the
19 Federation, that was already the second period of its
20 formation. That is, in the army of the Federation,
21 that is, the army of B and H, now we have ranks, as in
22 all the armies in the world.
23 Q. From your desk, when you started towards the
24 exit, and a few metres away you stopped and remained at
25 that same place until 11.00, at least, and you said
1that behind you, a few steps behind you, you heard the
2 voice, and you're telling us that that voice belonged
3 to Vlado Santic; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, it is correct.
5 Q. Are you sure that it was as near, that it was
6 as close, and that you had no doubt in your mind and
7 that you can affirm it today?
8 A. Yes, right behind me. I cannot say whether
9 it was a metre or two or three, but I clearly heard
10 Vlado Santic's voice.
11 Q. Could one say that today you are not quite
12 certain whether the person who was hit, the person who
13 came by an UNPROFOR van, was a person named Prskalo or
14 a person named Pilicic?
15 A. I think that person was called Prskalo.
16 Q. Prior to the 16th of April, 1993, did you
17 have any wartime experience, any combat experience?
18 A. Well, all I had was that in 1984, I did my
19 regular service for the Yugoslav People's Army, for the
20 JNA. But after that I had no experience with the
21 military at all.
22 Q. You described to us the time and the
23 situations in which on the 16th of April, 1993, you saw
24 and heard Vlado Santic. And it transpires from that
25 that until 8.00 in the evening that day, you were
1having intermittent contact with Vlado Santic; is that
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And you told us also that after that, you
5 went to the Bungalow, and that some of you, several of
6 you, went by a van?
7 A. Yes, I did say that.
8 Q. Did all of those who were with the security
9 team go to the Bungalow that evening? Do you know
10 anything about that?
11 A. Well, as I have said, we were told in the
12 evening that we would all be leaving the hotel and
13 going somewhere. At that time, we did not know where.
14 Q. You also said that when you got to the
15 Bungalow, you saw Vlado Santic standing in front of the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know, when had Vlado Santic got there?
19 A. No, I had no way of knowing that at that
20 time. I simply could not know that.
21 Q. Thank you. I have no more questions.
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I
23 have no further questions.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We have no
25 questions for the witness.
1Mr. Biletic, thank you for giving evidence in
2 court. You may now be released. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 (The witness withdrew)
5 (The witness entered court)
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Franjic.
7 Would you please make the solemn declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit
13 Counsel Pavkovic?
14 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 WITNESS: IVICA FRANJIC
16 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
17 Q. Good day, Witness. I would like to ask you
18 to introduce yourself to the Court.
19 A. Good day. My name is Ivica Franjic. I was
20 born on the 28th of February, 1956, in the village of
21 Kruscica in the Vitez municipality. I am married, I
22 have four children and a wife, and I now live in the
23 Vitez municipality.
24 Q. Could you please speak up a little and a bit
25 closer to the microphone.
1You say, "I am now living in the Vitez
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us your address?
5 A. I live in Kralja Kresmira Cetvrtog Street, in
6 an apartment in my family house.
7 Q. So what is your job today?
8 A. I'm a private entrepreneur.
9 Q. Can you tell us where you lived and worked
10 before the war?
11 A. I lived in my family house in Kruscica in the
12 Vitez municipality. I was employed in the
13 Kruscica-Vitez catering company.
14 Q. What did that catering company consist of,
15 the Kruscica-Vitez company? I would like to clarify my
16 question: What work units were there?
17 A. Well, there were two hotels. One of them was
18 in Vitez, in the town, and it was called the Hotel
19 Vitez. The other was in the village of Kruscica; it
20 was called the Kruscica Hotel. And there were other
21 catering establishments, such as restaurants, cafes.
22 There were also some shops.
23 Q. Can you tell me until when you were employed
24 in this company and what your position was?
25 A. My last working day was the 15th of April,
11993, if we can say that. That was the last day I
2 worked normally, and then I continued in that company
3 for a while, performing duties -- actually, when the
4 conflict broke out, I was the director of the
5 Kruscica-Vitez catering company.
6 Q. Can we say that you were the director of the
7 Vitez Hotel at that time?
8 A. Yes, I was the manager of Vitez Hotel, and
9 the acting director of the company.
10 Q. So you were responsible for the situation in
11 the hotel?
12 A. Yes, for the personnel employed in the hotel,
13 I was the person in charge.
14 Q. And you say that you worked until the 15th of
15 April, 1993?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Does that mean that on that day, you were in
18 the hotel?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. We are talking about a hotel; is that the
21 Vitez Hotel in Vitez?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. To make it quite clear that we are talking
24 about a certain hotel.
25 I would now like to ask a question which I
1have asked before, but I would like to know if you
2 recall the 15th, your last day at work. Can you tell
3 us whether this was an ordinary day like all other
4 days, or did you notice any events that caused you to
5 pay special attention?
6 A. It was a normal working day.
7 Q. Do you remember when you left the Vitez Hotel
8 on that day?
9 A. I think it was around 4.00 or half past 4.00
10 in the afternoon. That's about the time I arrived
12 Q. You say -- that's 16.00, 17.00 hours?
13 A. Yes, about half past 4.00. 16.30 hours,
14 approximately. I can't be precise.
15 Q. Today you've told us that you were
16 responsible for the situation in the hotel. Can you
17 tell us who was staying at the hotel at the time?
18 A. Well, at that time, there was the military
19 police, a part of another army unit, the headquarters.
20 I didn't have access to the military part, the part
21 used by the army, so I cannot tell you what the names
22 of the units were or of the commands, but it was army.
23 It was the military.
24 Q. Was the hotel used by other people who needed
25 to stay there at the time?
2 Q. Was it your personnel that ran the hotel
3 after the army settled in?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You mentioned a headquarters; whose
6 headquarters was it?
7 A. I think General Blaskic's headquarters.
8 Q. You mentioned the military police. How many
9 military policemen stayed at the hotel?
10 A. I don't know. I can't tell you exactly
11 because I did not keep their records. I don't know how
12 many there were. Every day I was presented with a
13 count so that we could distribute meals, because they
14 ate at the hotel, and some of them slept there.
15 Q. Yes, I understand that you didn't know, but
16 can you tell me what these soldiers were doing in your
18 A. I don't know. They kept guard, they had
19 their desk at the door, they had some sentry posts
20 outside, but I don't know what the sphere of their
21 activity was. I was not a soldier. I was neither a
22 member of the military police nor of the staff, so I
23 cannot give you a precise answer. I do not know.
24 Q. Did you know some of the people who were
25 staying at your hotel? Did you have any previous
1acquaintance with them?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When did these soldiers start moving into
4 your hotel?
5 A. I think it was in the middle of 1993, but I
6 can't tell you exactly. In the second half of 1992,
8 Q. Do you know if they all arrived at the same
9 time? You said the staff, you mentioned General
10 Blaskic, you mentioned the military police; did they
11 all arrive at the same time?
12 A. No. First, let us say -- I don't know how to
13 describe them -- the municipal staff arrived, and 10 or
14 15 soldiers. Whether they were police or not, I don't
15 know, because it was only after a certain time that the
16 military police arrived. And in the autumn, General
17 Blaskic arrived with his staff, in 1992.
18 Q. Can you tell us what rooms the military
19 police occupied?
20 A. Well, the military police had rooms behind
21 the reception, and they were accommodated on the third
22 floor of the accommodation facilities, and they used
23 the restaurants for their meals.
24 Q. You have already told us that you took care
25 of their meals; do you know whether they slept in the
2 A. Well, as I have just said, they were on the
3 third floor. Whether it was just military police or
4 whether there were other kinds of soldiers, I don't
5 know, because that's what the agreement was. I didn't
6 have any information about anything military.
7 Q. Did you come to the hotel often before the
8 15th of April?
9 A. Well, every day, several times. Sometimes I
10 would drop in two, three, four, five times, depending
11 on --
12 Q. You mentioned a desk; where was it?
13 A. It was by the reception, along the wall next
14 to the reception desk.
15 Q. Was it at the very entrance to the hotel?
16 A. Yes, approximately at the entrance.
17 Q. And who was at that desk? Who was there?
18 A. The military police.
19 Q. Can you tell me whether, on the outside of
20 the hotel, whether the military police guarded the
21 hotel outside at that time?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I would now like to ask you to recall and
24 describe your arrival in the hotel on the 16th of
25 April, 1993.
1A. Well, on the 16th, I arrived at about a
2 quarter past 6.00, or half past 6.00. I came under
3 unusual circumstances. I was anxious, because there
4 was gunfire all around. There were explosions,
5 detonations. So it is very difficult to describe my
6 arrival. I was afraid. I was in a panic.
7 Q. You say you arrived at a quarter past 6.00 or
8 half past 6.00; where did you come from?
9 A. I came from my old house in Kruscica.
10 Q. How far is that?
11 A. I think, if you take the shortcut, it's about
12 one kilometre, or a kilometre and 200 metres. I can't
13 be precise.
14 Q. So when did you wake up in the morning of the
16 A. Well, it wasn't an awakening. I was half
17 asleep, because the circumstances were very unusual.
18 My old house had been abandoned. So when I heard the
19 detonations, of course at first I didn't know what was
20 going on. I was afraid. I had to think about what to
21 do, so a relative of mine and I left the old house and
22 walked over the fields to the first Croatian village,
24 Q. Mr. Franjic, you said, "I was at my old house
25 under unusual circumstances." I do not understand
1exactly what you were trying to say.
2 A. Well, then, I have to describe the previous
3 day, the 15th.
4 Q. Can you do it very briefly?
5 A. Well, when I came home from work, my wife, as
6 usual, laid the table and put our dinner on the table.
7 My youngest son was at the door, and he said to me that
8 he could see a group of Muslim soldiers who were armed
9 and were passing by my family house. I got up from the
10 table, and I saw six or seven soldiers who were armed
11 to the teeth, and they were carrying something on their
12 backs. And later, I found out -- because I have just
13 said that I am not a soldier -- but later I found out
14 that these were hand-held rocket launchers, Zoljas or
15 such, on their backs. They had automatic weapons.
16 They set up a roadblock next to my house, some 20, 30
17 metres away, towards that part of the village which has
18 a majority Croatian population.
19 Then, for reasons of safety, I sent my wife
20 and my youngest son to my brother's house, from where
21 they went on some 700 to 800 metres to Vinko Miskovic's
22 house, where I felt they would be safest.
23 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, but whose
24 army are you talking about?
25 A. The Muslim army.
1Q. So when these detonations started, you sent
2 your wife and children to a safer place; is that it?
3 A. No. On the 15th, at around 17.00 hours --
4 17.30, I don't know, but it was around that time -- on
5 the 15th of April, 1993.
6 Q. So when you saw these soldiers and when you
7 became concerned about their safety; is that it?
8 A. Yes, because such things had happened
9 before. Roadblocks were set up in that part of the
10 road, and I simply did not feel safe. I did not feel
11 that my family was secure. I had experienced a lot of
12 harassment, shooting, intimidation, around my house,
13 and the most important thing to me was to protect my
14 family. Believe it or not, I was not thinking of
15 myself at the time, although today I think I was
16 crazy. I stayed at my house in order, as I thought
17 then, to protect my property.
18 Q. And then you decided to leave the old house
19 and to go to Toljusici, and then you went toward the
20 hotel; is that what you said? Do I understand you
22 A. Well, let me tell you. I was around the
23 house, my house, until about 10 or 11 p.m. -- that is,
24 22.00, 23.00 hours -- and the Muslim soldiers kept
25 arriving. At one moment, because the main road runs
1some 10, 20 metres from my house, I felt there were 15,
2 20 soldiers there. And at the roadblock, I think there
3 were as many as 30 or 40 of them, and they had either
4 radio transmitters or Motorolas, walkie-talkies, I
5 don't know. I just heard -- I heard the kind of sounds
6 made when the police are chasing someone. I couldn't
7 hear very well, because it was some 30 metres away from
9 So for reasons of security, we withdrew to
10 the old house, because the old house is about 150
11 metres distant from the house where we lived, on a
12 hillside, so we thought that from there, we could watch
13 and be safer.
14 Q. So, excuse me, but you are talking about the
15 evening of the 15th?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can we move through that time a bit faster
18 and go on to the 16th?
19 A. Well, we spent the night there, and after the
20 detonations at sunrise, I was half asleep because I was
21 too frightened to really sleep, but I can't say that I
22 did not drop off to sleep. But when we heard the
23 detonations and when we realised that there were not
24 just one or two but a lot of detonations, then we went
25 to the village of Toljusici.
1Q. And your relative was with you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where did you decide to go?
4 A. Well, we felt it was most important to reach
5 safety, to get to the part of the village inhabited by
6 Croats, and we arrived there. When we got to there, my
7 relative stayed in Toljusici, and I went on to the
9 Q. On that morning and on that road, were there
10 any explosions, was there any gunfire? What did it
11 look like then? Was it dangerous to go on foot, was it
13 A. It was still the dawn, and I was moving
14 through a wood. I took a shortcut through a wood. It
15 wasn't safe anywhere, but it was least safe in the
17 Q. You say it was least safe in the town?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But you decided to go to the town?
20 A. Well, I went to the hotel, where I had to
22 Q. Why was it so important to you to expose
23 yourself to the risk of going to work?
24 A. Well, let me tell you. As I have just said,
25 I didn't know what was going on. Nothing like that had
1happened before. As you know in the former Yugoslavia,
2 in the former system, in the former Yugoslav People's
3 Army, we were taught that if there was any kind of
4 emergency, the first thing we had to do was report to
5 our workplace and everything else would follow from
6 there. We would get instructions at our workplace.
7 That was how it was in the former system, and this was
8 something that was deeply imprinted in my mind, and I
9 always tried to be very punctual about my job. I was
10 fanatical, in a way.
11 Q. Your conscientiousness was sufficient reason
12 for you to expose yourself to such a risk?
13 A. Well, when I think about it now, perhaps now
14 I would behave differently. But at that time, I felt
15 it was the only right thing to do.
16 Q. Does that mean that as a person who had
17 responsibilities at your job and were responsible for
18 your personnel, that you wanted to give the proper
19 instructions to your personnel because, as you say,
20 they were working and serving those who were staying at
21 the hotel?
22 A. Yes, because the personnel was mixed. I mean
23 they were of all the various ethnic origins.
24 Q. Why is it important? I don't understand.
25 A. Well, I'll tell you. It was important for
2 Q. Will you then please explain to me why it was
3 important to you?
4 A. Well, at that time Croats and Muslims and
5 Serbs worked to -- I and my personnel were given
6 guarantees by the military police that nothing untoward
7 would happen, and it is quite true that there were no
8 problems. But there were the conditions of emergency,
9 and I feared for the security -- for the safety of
10 those people.
11 Q. Yes, but let us try to cut it shorter. So
12 these were the principal reasons for you to go to the
13 hotel that morning?
14 A. Well, more or less, yes.
15 Q. So around a quarter past 6.00 or half past
16 6.00, you were at the hotel, as you told us. Will you
17 please describe to us how you arrived at the hotel?
18 What entrance do you use to go into the hotel?
19 A. Well, I told you that the town was the least
20 safe place of all because there was fire all over the
21 place. Bullets were whistling by, there were
22 detonations, so the safest place was moving from one
23 building to the other. And between the buildings, I
24 managed to get to the hotel, and I entered through the
25 main entrance to the receptionist.
1Q. Who did you see there as you entered the
3 A. I saw the military policemen, that is, a
4 couple of military policemen who were going out of the
5 hotel, a couple of them going out. Some of them were
6 in the lobby by the receptionist's, and that was about
7 it. Panic reigned, fear, and I saw Mr. Santic, amongst
9 Q. Yes. I'll ask you about that later, but tell
10 us something more about this. The hotel, was the hotel
11 fired at, perhaps its front part, the glass? I mean
12 it's mostly a glass-walled hotel?
13 A. Well, yes, on the front, yes, it is mostly
14 glass panels, but also that part facing that part of
15 the municipality controlled by the Muslim army, so that
16 I didn't go there to that part, and nobody dared go. I
17 wouldn't dare go there, and I had no need to go there.
18 Q. You said you met Vlado Santic there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you see that person here?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Where do you see him?
23 A. To the left, next to the wall, I think the
24 first one sitting there.
25 MR. PAVKOVIC: Just for the record, may we
1then simply know that the witness recognised Vlado
2 Santic here.
3 Q. Will you now tell us what you remember, if
4 you remember anything, about the circumstances under
5 which you saw Vlado Santic? Where was that?
6 A. Well, as I entered the hotel, I already said
7 I was frightened, I was afraid, and in the doorway or,
8 rather, in the lobby between the reception desk and the
9 restaurant, in the lobby there, I met -- I saw Vlado,
10 not Vlado only, but I talked to Vlado because he was
11 the one I knew best of them. So I asked him, "Vlado,
12 what is this? What's going on?" He drew -- I did not
13 think it was a particularly nice way to respond, but he
14 only -- at least I thought it like that, but he simply
15 waved his hand and said, "Well, don't you see? What
16 are you asking me about that," and that was the end of
17 this conversation.
18 I went on through the restaurant to the
19 kitchen to see if there were any of the personnel
20 there, per chance. But as none of them were there, I
21 just turned and left the hotel.
22 Q. So you spent a very short time in the hotel?
23 A. Well, I'm telling you, just as long as it was
24 necessary for me to go in. I had this contact with
25 Vlado, perhaps it would have been better if I hadn't,
1and I went to the kitchen, checked if there were any of
2 the personnel there. And as there was nobody there, I
3 left the hotel, because at that time I had nothing to
4 do there. There was nothing for me to do there.
5 Q. Let's go back to this. You said Vlado Santic
6 didn't treat you particularly nice at that time, did
8 A. Well, let me tell you. My feeling was that
9 he was also frightened, that he was afraid, upset or
10 something. He looked upset to me. I don't think there
11 was any need for him to -- or at least I expected that
12 he would perhaps devote some time to me, share perhaps
13 a few more words with me or something like that.
14 Q. But perhaps the circumstances would not
15 permit him to conduct a conversation with you or
17 A. Well, now, of course, I realise that the
18 circumstances would not allow us to have a chat, but at
19 that time I simply did not -- it did not penetrate,
20 because I asked -- I was at a loss. I didn't know what
21 was happening, what was going on, and I wanted somebody
22 to tell me what was going on.
23 Q. Perhaps your wish to find out what was going
24 on might have been also another reason for you to go to
25 the hotel, because you believed you would find there
1people from whom you could learn something more?
2 A. Well, yes, quite possible. That is quite
3 possible that that was one of the reasons for which I
4 went there. But to be quite honest, I'm telling you my
5 principal -- the principal motive for me was to get to
6 my work, and then all the rest of it.
7 Q. Right, yes, thank you. You've told us that
8 already. But will you tell us if you knew Vlado before
9 that day that we are talking about?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. How long have you known him?
12 A. Well, I cannot say that it was from childhood
13 days, but for a very long time, since elementary
14 school, since grade school, something like that.
15 Q. So you went to the same school?
16 A. No, I mean we could have been enrolled in the
17 same school, but we are not peers, we are not of the
18 same generation. But Vitez is a small town, so
19 naturally everybody knows everybody, so I knew Vlado
20 and I know his family.
21 Q. Mr. Franjic, however cursory that meeting
22 with Vlado that morning and, as you said, not
23 particularly friendly, could you perhaps try to
24 remember, what was Vlado wearing then?
25 A. I believe -- well, to my mind, he was dressed
1as usual, wearing a camouflage uniform. True, as far
2 as I remember, he did not have a cap on his head at the
3 time, which if I were a soldier, if I were a military,
4 that would be something that I couldn't explain, I mean
5 something --
6 Q. But you say that you are not a military, and
7 therefore it is easy to explain that fact, isn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. Franjic, you say "as usual". You mean
10 his appearance was the same as when you saw him in the
11 hotel on previous occasions?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you distinguish between that military
14 appearance and the appearance in combat? I mean you've
15 seen films, so could you tell us?
16 A. Well, of course I could make a distinction.
17 Q. Did Vlado Santic have any weapons on him that
18 morning, any arms?
19 A. I believe he had a pistol.
20 Q. Could we say that it was a pistol as was
21 usually kept by the military police and held by the
22 military police?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. After that encounter, when you started
25 towards the restaurant and then left the hotel quickly,
1did you then still see Vlado Santic?
2 A. Vlado stayed behind there in the lobby. He
3 was issuing some instructions or some guidelines. I
4 don't know. He was waving his hands about. I said I
5 needed -- I left the facility immediately because I was
6 truly afraid. I cannot really claim, but he -- yes, he
7 stayed behind me.
8 Q. Tell us, did anyone else at that time, as you
9 were coming out of the hotel?
10 A. I don't think there was another military
11 policeman there who might have been moving, going to
12 those guard posts, but I was really very fast.
13 Q. So you allow the possibility for the guards,
14 that they may have been going to those guard posts
15 which you mentioned?
16 A. Well, I don't know really. I mean military
17 police were milling about. I don't really know who was
18 going out or coming in. Somebody might have gone to
19 the entrance.
20 Q. But did you come to the hotel again that day?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So after what you told us, that you saw Vlado
23 Santic, did you see him again after the 16th? If
24 "Yes", when was that after the 16th of April?
25 A. I cannot really claim that I saw him, because
1I did not have much opportunity of going down to
2 Vitez. Every seven or ten days or so would I go down
3 for a couple of hours. We would go down there to wash,
4 perhaps get a shave, so that I had no opportunity or
5 time to go to the hotel. That is just to drop in and
6 see my family, nothing else.
7 So I know I saw him sometime midway through
8 the war. I think it was autumn. I think it was
9 sometime midway through the war.
10 Q. You say "autumn". Which year was that?
11 A. '93.
12 Q. Why do you remember that meeting with Vlado
14 A. Well, I feel rather embarrassed talking about
15 this because these times are past, but if you want me
16 to tell you about that, that was another rather awkward
18 Q. Well, if it won't take you long to tell us.
19 A. Oh, come, it won't. I said that I would go
20 home every seven or ten days, but I was very ill then,
21 I was running a high fever, so I went to see a doctor,
22 and I came home and went to bed.
23 The military police came to my door and asked
24 me to tell them where the truck of the Kruscica company
25 was or, rather, where its keys were, because they
1wanted to requisition it for the military police.
2 As I told you, I was born in Kruscica, I'm a
3 child of Kruscica. That company had paid for my
4 education. I have never known another company. I
5 worked in Kruscica all my life, all my working life.
6 So I refused to give them the keys and I
7 resisted to tell them where the truck was. But they
8 knew where that truck was, and when I told them, "No,"
9 they said, "Why do we ask you for it? Let's go and
10 take that vehicle by ourselves." And even though I was
11 feverish, I went to that place. I got up and went to
12 that place, and there was a rather undesirable
13 situation. That is, it almost came to fisticuffs with
14 the military policemen, because I did not want to give
15 them that vehicle.
16 Then they went to Vlado, and Vlado either
17 issued an order or perhaps a letter, but a handwritten
18 letter without seal or stamp or anything, that that
19 vehicle was being requisitioned for the military
21 Q. And you were angry with Vlado Santic?
22 A. Well, the next day a quarrel broke out
23 between Vlado Santic and me, and true, after that brief
24 altercation, after that brief argument, the keys of the
25 car were returned to me and the vehicle was taken back
1to that same site next to the driver's house.
2 Q. But are you aware that under wartime
3 conditions, vehicles may be requisitioned for the
4 army? Naturally, a proper document needs to be issued
5 for that and these vehicles are then returned, of
6 course, if they survive.
7 A. Well, yes, of course, I'm aware of that now.
8 But at that time, believe me, nobody could put it over
9 to me, and I was rather stubborn, pig-headed, when it
10 came to the company's property.
11 Q. So perhaps Vlado Santic and the others had to
12 do it because that was a war necessity.
13 A. Well, yes, today when I think about it, of
14 course, yes. But at that time, I simply did not think
15 that was all right.
16 Q. What I'm trying to say is that it was not a
17 confiscation, even if you were not given an official
19 A. Well, I'm telling you now, when I think about
20 it, of course it was not a confiscation or anything
21 like that or a robbery, but at that time it wasn't only
22 that. I resisted when they wanted to requisition my
23 rooms. I thought a mass confiscation for the military
24 needs. I said, "Well, the war is not going to last for
25 very long, and one will have to live after that again."
1Q. So you just behaved as an owner who wanted to
2 keep it all safe?
3 A. Well, you can put it that way, yes, and I
4 believed I was right.
5 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you very much,
6 Mr. Franjic.
7 I have two more questions, Mr. President.
8 The first one:
9 Q. You confirmed today that Vlado Santic, whom
10 you know, is in the courtroom today. Do you know,
11 because you were born in Vitez or, rather, in those
12 environs, do you know any other individual of that same
13 first and last name?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do these individuals live in or around Vitez?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you tell us if those individuals lived
18 there at that time?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. My second question: You know where the
21 village of Ahmici is?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. So today, if we go from Vitez to Ahmici on
24 foot, taking the main road, how long do we need?
25 A. I don't know. I've never walked to Ahmici by
1the main road.
2 Q. But at that time, could one use the main road
3 to walk from Vitez to Ahmici?
4 A. Well, I don't think a normal man would do
5 that or would use that particular road.
6 Q. Does that road pass through or by villages
7 held by Muslims at the time?
8 A. Yes, it does, by localities.
9 Q. "By localities." Could you mention the names
10 of some of them?
11 A. Well, one of the nearest ones is the Sivrino
12 Selo which comes before, which is between Vitez and
14 Q. Do you know if one could go through Sivrino
15 Selo without incurring a risk and then going on?
16 A. Through Sivrino Selo, no way, and not even
17 that road.
18 Q. Yes. But Sivrino Selo is off the road?
19 A. Yes, but it's the first houses from which
20 they acted, where those Muslim forces were, so perhaps
21 50 metres from the main road.
22 Q. So the road was within the range and they
23 could hit anyone moving on that road?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Does that mean, in other words, that this was
1not a safe way to Ahmici, that one had to take some
2 other route?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So was there some roundabout route which
5 could serve as an alternative and which had been built
6 before, I mean that could be used on the 16th of
8 A. No, not really. There was partly a road to
9 the village of Rijeka, to a stream or a brook or a
10 creek. I don't know what to call it. I think it's
11 called the Vranjska River, or something like that; I
12 don't know. And from there on you would have to cut
13 across meadows. That is, as that particular vehicle
14 moved, they built the road. Perhaps -- I don't really
15 know whether it was a wheat field or a meadow, but
16 there has never been path, a road, or anything.
17 Q. Right. Thank you, Mr. Franjic. I have no
18 more questions for the time being.
19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you very much,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.
22 Mr. Blaxill or Mr. Terrier, I assume you
23 would need more than seven minutes for your
25 MR. BLAXILL: I will do my best to be quick,
1but seven minutes would be unrealistic, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So let us adjourn
3 now, and we will see you tomorrow at 9.00.
4 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged to you,
5 Mr. President. Thank you.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
7 12.53 p.m., to be reconvened on
8 Friday, the 9th day of July, 1999,
9 at 9.00 a.m.