1Friday, 9th July, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T,
7 the Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan
8 Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic,
9 Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill.
11 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. President, thank you. Your
12 Honours, good morning. Good morning counsel.
13 WITNESS: IVICA FRANJIC (Resumed)
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Franjic. We have met
16 before once but for the record and for your memory, my
17 name is Michael Blaxill, and I'm one of the Prosecuting
18 counsel engaged in this case. So I do have a few
19 questions for you, sir, as a result of the evidence you
20 gave here yesterday.
21 A. Yes. Please go ahead.
22 Q. Now, sir, up to and including the 15th of
23 April, 1993, you worked visiting the Hotel Vitez on an
24 almost daily basis; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. In the performance of those duties did you
2 wear civilian clothing, generally speaking?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you, in fact, wearing civilian clothes,
5 like a suit and tie or something like, that on the 15th
6 of April, 1993?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, at that time, you said that you were not
9 in any way a soldier, or a member of the military, HVO,
10 or anything of that nature, is that so, sir?
11 A. Well, I was not an organised soldier if we
12 leave aside the village patrols, because we saw what
13 was happening. The Serbs were already attacking
14 Sarajevo, the village of Ravno, and strange things were
15 going on. So the village patrols were organised so
16 that we could protect our families and our homes, but I
17 was not organised as a soldier.
18 Q. So in connection with your involvement in the
19 village guards, did you possess any form of uniform?
20 A. Well, it was a uniform I often borrowed from
21 others, and then people managed to get things. But if
22 anyone had a uniform, he could wear it.
23 Q. Did you yourself purchase any kind of uniform
24 clothing, perhaps camouflage jacket or trousers or
25 something of that nature?
1A. Yes.
2 Q. You possessed these items of uniform, did
3 you, prior to the 15th of April, 1993?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did that uniform include both the trousers
6 and a sort of camouflage jacket or something like
7 that?
8 A. At that time, I had only a jacket and a cap
9 of items of uniform.
10 Q. Did you attach any form of badge or patch or
11 insignia to any of those, to the cap or to the jacket?
12 A. Well, sometimes. Sometimes you would put on
13 some kind of patch, but there were no official
14 patches. They changed very often because there was no
15 real organisation.
16 Q. So very specifically, sir, did you put any
17 badge on any part of your uniform clothing, and if so,
18 would you describe that badge to it?
19 A. I think there was no patch on my jacket and
20 on my cap.
21 Q. Well, if that's correct, perhaps of a sew-on
22 type of patch. What about a badge? Did you have any
23 kind of metal badge you clipped onto your clothing?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you describe that for us, please?
1A. It was the Croatian coat of arms without the
2 part that is on the coat of arms of the Republic of
3 Croatia. It was just the checkerboard coat of arms,
4 and I bought it myself.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you possess any weapons at
6 that time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you say what weapons you had?
9 A. A pistol.
10 Q. Did you carry that pistol when performing
11 village guard duty?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you possess any other weapon than the
14 pistol, like perhaps a shotgun or hunting rifle or
15 something?
16 A. I did not have any other weapons. I was not
17 a hunter, so I did not have a hunting rifle. Not my
18 own.
19 Q. Now, sir, when you left the Hotel Vitez on
20 the afternoon of the 15th of April, 1993, what was the
21 atmosphere at the hotel like? Was it quiet, was
22 everything normal, or had you noticed anything like a
23 tension in the atmosphere amongst the military staying
24 there?
25 A. Nothing usual. It was a usual working day
1for me.
2 Q. Okay. So you went home, and later that
3 evening you say you noticed soldiers outside your
4 apartment? I believe that's correct, sir.
5 A. No, not in the evening but in the afternoon
6 at around 3.00 p.m. It was not next to my apartment
7 but below my family house, and they were moving along
8 the main road and they were armed.
9 Q. So you say you saw these armed men moving
10 along the road and they then set up some form of
11 barricade, I believe you say, facing the Croatian part
12 of town. Is that roughly correct?
13 A. It was not facing. It was a barricade, a
14 roadblock, to monitor the passage of people and
15 vehicles along that road and check who was passing
16 through. It was set up to separate the Croatian
17 population from the Muslim population, and I was
18 unfortunate enough to -- my house was in the Muslim
19 part of the village.
20 Q. Right. Had you encountered such things
21 before? I believe you say they had put up barricades
22 and things like this before. Is that right?
23 A. Not just once, an untold number of times.
24 Q. Had you, on more than one occasion, had to
25 pass through such a barricade?
1A. Well, I did pass through such barricades
2 quite often, depending on my own estimate of the
3 situation. If I thought it was dangerous, I would walk
4 over the meadows to avoid any kind of misunderstandings
5 or problems.
6 However, I think it was in late 1992, in
7 October or November, when they set up this roadblock,
8 and I tried to take my family in my car to my brothers
9 who were in the part of the village that was inhabited
10 by a majority Croatian population. Then they asked to
11 see my identity card. They searched me. They shot in
12 my direction. They fired shots in my direction and
13 very unpleasant things happened.
14 Q. On those occasions, sir, that you went
15 through such checkpoints, were you normally clad in
16 your civilian clothing or were you ever wearing parts
17 of that uniform you say you had acquired?
18 A. Very often it was in civilian clothes, but
19 the time they fired shots in my direction I was wearing
20 the jacket and cap but not carrying any weapons.
21 Q. You say that later on, you felt that the
22 situation did not look safe, so I believe you sent
23 members of your family to your brother's house, where
24 you felt they would be safer; is that right?
25 A. It wasn't me that took them. I sent them
1there on their own, and I stayed at home.
2 Q. And were you then the only person in your
3 apartment at that time, after they had gone?
4 A. My relative was with me. He arrived. I rang
5 him up on the telephone, and he came to my house. It
6 was in the evening, around 8.00 or 9.00 p.m., when he
7 arrived. And I was alone after 5.00, half past
8 5.00 p.m.
9 Q. I believe you said that you subsequently left
10 the apartment yourself and went to another property
11 that you had, your old house; is that right?
12 A. Yes, but that was at around 2200, 2300
13 hours. I went out of my house-- as soon as they set up
14 the roadblock, I went out and -- I went in and out of
15 the house. I walked around. And then, when it got
16 dark, and there was no electricity, I thought it was
17 very dangerous to be alone there, so I called my
18 relative. He arrived, and at about 2200, 2300
19 hours -- well, up to that time, we walked around the
20 house, the farm buildings, and that was all some 10
21 metres away from the road, where there were about 15
22 soldiers who were probably trying to intimidate us. I
23 don't know exactly what they were doing.
24 Q. If you said you were outside in the early
25 part of the evening from time to time, did any soldiers
1give you a hard time? Did anybody stop you, or did
2 anybody harass you in any way?
3 A. No, they couldn't stop me, because I was not
4 on the road. I was some ten metres away from the
5 road. They did not approach my house because they
6 probably knew that they couldn't do it just like that,
7 because each of us has his dignity.
8 Q. But were you at times visible to these
9 soldiers? And you're saying a distance of some 10
10 metres from the road; I mean, could they see you from
11 where they were?
12 A. No, because my house is on a slope, so they
13 couldn't see me.
14 Q. Which house are we referring to there? This
15 is your apartment, the one you had been in earlier that
16 day; is that right?
17 A. Yes, my family house.
18 Q. Could you just remind me, please, because I'm
19 perhaps a little confused here. What made you then
20 leave that family home and go to the other house, of
21 your relative?
22 A. Well, because in the immediate vicinity of my
23 house, about 10 metres below my house, in my estimate
24 there were 10, 15, or 20 members of the Muslim army.
25 They were having a heated discussion. About 30 or 50
1metres away there was the roadblock, and there were
2 some 30 or 40; I couldn't count them. So I felt
3 unsafe, and so we went to my old house, which was on a
4 hill overlooking the place where my family house was.
5 It was some -- a little more than 100 metres away. I
6 thought we would feel much safer there. It would be
7 easier for us to watch out and see if anyone was
8 approaching us.
9 Q. What were you wearing when you left your
10 family home to go to that other house?
11 A. I was wearing the camouflage jacket and the
12 jeans.
13 Q. Did you wear your cap, military cap?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did the cap still have the Croatian badge
16 attached to it?
17 A. Not on the cap, but on the pocket on my left
18 side.
19 Q. Thank you. And were you carrying a weapon
20 when you left your family home to move to the other
21 house?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Franjic, perhaps it's my confusion here
24 to understand the situation, but you've told us that
25 generally speaking, in your previous encounters with
1Muslim army troops, the only occasions you'd been shot
2 at were when you were wearing the camouflage uniform.
3 Wasn't that inviting trouble, to wear that uniform to
4 go up to your other house? Wouldn't you have been
5 better off in civilian clothes?
6 A. No, I think not, because I could tell you
7 about a number of times when I was harassed while
8 wearing civilian clothes. These were provocations,
9 because how can you explain this? If you set up a
10 roadblock 30 metres away from my house, and I arrive as
11 a civilian in my private car, and they search me, and
12 they ask to see my identity papers, and these are
13 people with whom I grew up; is this normal?
14 So uniform or no uniform, they did the same
15 things. It was a system of intimidation. They fired
16 shots at my family home. They fired shots at the light
17 bulb if it was left on at night, and these things
18 happened many times. They wanted me to put my lights
19 out, and so on.
20 Q. But I believe I'm right if I recall you
21 saying here this morning, sir, that the times that you
22 had been shot at were the ones when you were wearing
23 your camouflage rather than when you were wearing
24 civilian clothes. That is a difference, isn't it, sir,
25 being shot at?
1A. Well, I don't think the reason they shot at
2 me was my camouflage uniform. I think the reason was
3 the improper behaviour of the Muslim soldiers, and I
4 answered back. When they asked to see my identity
5 papers, my identity card, I wouldn't show it to them.
6 I refused to open the boot of my car. I opposed them.
7 In the end, I did open it, and there were only tools
8 there and a spare tire.
9 So it was their attempt to hurt my dignity,
10 to upset me, and I opposed them. So I don't think that
11 the uniform had anything to do with it, with the
12 shooting.
13 Q. Okay, sir, thank you. Now, you went and
14 spent the rest of the night in that particular house,
15 and I recall, to cut a longer story short, that in the
16 morning you made your way to a predominantly Croat
17 village and from there to Hotel Vitez. Does that
18 summarise briefly your movements?
19 A. I don't know what you mean.
20 Q. Well, sir, you spent the night at that other
21 house of yours, and I think you've described it as a
22 fairly sleepless night. You were in part sort of
23 guarding the property and watching out for what was
24 going on; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. Did you in fact see any kind of unusual
2 activity by those Muslim troops during that night?
3 A. Well, that was unusual. It was unusual for
4 them to set up the roadblock. As I said, they'd done
5 it before, but if there was an incident in Gornji Vakuf
6 or Novi Travnik. The reasons why they set up these
7 roadblocks, I don't know, but it was unusual for there
8 to be 50 or 70 people in front of my house. That was
9 unusual.
10 Q. So you certainly suspected something somewhat
11 intimidating, let us say, because of the sheer numbers
12 of those troops and the fact that there is usually a
13 roadblock, after an incident, somewhere; would that be
14 correct?
15 A. Well, let me tell you, I was not expecting
16 anything bad because such things had happened before,
17 and we would spend the night not sleeping, and guarding
18 my house, and then in the morning I would go to work
19 again. But that morning, things happened. What
20 happened, happened.
21 Q. And, of course, in order to be where you
22 were, you had had to leave your other family home down
23 near the barricade and near the soldiers, you had had
24 to leave that empty, I presume, overnight?
25 A. I don't understand your question.
1Q. Well, when you and your relative moved to the
2 other house, your wife and child had already gone, so I
3 presume you left that family home empty overnight; is
4 that right?
5 A. You mean my family house? Yes, yes.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, you eventually made
7 your way, as you say, to the Hotel Vitez, and you
8 believe it was somewhere around 6.00 in the morning; is
9 that correct?
10 A. I think that I left my parents' old house at
11 about half past 5.00.
12 Q. When you left the old house, could you at
13 that time hear the sound of any artillery shelling or
14 of small-arms gunfire?
15 A. Only detonations could be heard. Shells were
16 falling. There were detonations.
17 Q. As you got closer to the hotel, did you start
18 to hear the sound of small-arms fire? Rifles, or
19 pistols, or something like that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How long do you think it took you to walk
22 from the house down to the village, and then from there
23 to Hotel Vitez?
24 A. I don't know. I mean, how long -- I really
25 couldn't time it or anything, nor is it logical.
1Perhaps I need a little bit more, or perhaps one needed
2 to be more cautious going from that family house to
3 that locality with the Croat population, which is
4 called Toljusici, isn't it. And from Toljusici, well,
5 it could be 15, 20 minutes. I don't really know. It
6 can't be more than 800 metres, perhaps a kilometre.
7 Q. When you arrived at the Hotel Vitez, I think
8 you've described a scene of some chaos. Is that a
9 correct description?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So there were people running around all over
12 the place, a lot of shouting and general milling
13 around. Would you say that's a fair description?
14 A. Not around the hotel, within the hotel.
15 Q. Yes, I mean within the hotel building. Did
16 you, at any point there, physically check to see what
17 time it was, what time of day?
18 A. What shall I say? I always have a watch on
19 my wrist and one does look at it now and again. It
20 could have been around quarter past six, half past
21 six. Listen, it was seven or eight years ago. I
22 really can't --
23 Q. We understand that, Mr. Franjic. Sir, you
24 then saw Mr. Vlado Santic in the sort of reception area
25 in the hotel; is that correct?
1A. Yes.
2 Q. And we've heard your description of a very
3 brief and on his part dismissive encounter which
4 presumably lasted only a matter of seconds or a
5 minute. Would you say that's right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At that point you decided you would leave the
8 hotel; is that correct?
9 A. I didn't decide. It must have been
10 spontaneous, because I was afraid. I had nothing to
11 look for there. I saw that my staff wasn't there so I
12 left.
13 Q. How did you leave the building, sir? Which
14 direction did you take?
15 A. From the hotel towards the department store
16 which was behind the hotel, in the direction of --
17 Q. It's my fault, Mr. Franjic. I didn't ask
18 that question very well.
19 Inside the hotel, what exit did you take to
20 leave it? That's what I meant to ask you. I'm sorry,
21 I was unclear.
22 A. The main exit.
23 Q. You then, in fact, made your way towards home
24 or something like that?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. Mr. Franjic, you do recall, do you not,
2 meeting an investigator from the Tribunal, certainly
3 some weeks ago now?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I would like just to quote a few words that
6 were recorded when you and he spoke, and indeed Defence
7 counsel and myself were also present. If this is
8 correct from the transcript, you said:
9 "I just walked through the restaurant to
10 check, to make sure none of the staff was there, and
11 since there wasn't anybody, I just left and I went out
12 through the other exit, through the coffee shop, going
13 by the fence of the terrace so I would be more covered,
14 more protected."
15 Do you recall saying that, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So which is correct, because you've just said
18 to me that you went out the main exit but you've now
19 confirmed that you told us previously that you went out
20 through the coffee shop exit. Could you verify for the
21 court, please, which is the correct direction?
22 A. Both are correct. When I went through the
23 restaurant, I entered the office and saw that none of
24 the staff were there. So I came into the coffee shop,
25 because from the office there is a door to the coffee
1shop. So through the coffee shop I went to the main
2 entrance, but not by the terrace, but I walked next to
3 the fence of the terrace and I went by it.
4 MR. BLAXILL: If I may just have a moment,
5 Your Honours. I'm just wondering, Your Honours, if, in
6 fact, the Defence exhibit, the photographs of the front
7 of the Hotel Vitez, the last Defence exhibit, I really
8 would like to try and locate where the terrace is in
9 relation to the building. I think that might assist
10 us. I think it's D10. Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Q. Mr. Franjic, looking at that photograph in
12 front of you, would you recognise that as of the front
13 of the Hotel Vitez?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I don't know if it is possible with this
16 photograph, but can you say, looking at the front of
17 the hotel, where is the terrace that you refer to? You
18 referred to a terrace and a fence. Could you sort of
19 indicate where they would be in relation to this
20 photograph?
21 A. Here. Here it is.
22 Q. Perhaps, sir, you could do it on the machine
23 to your right. That will actually pick up the pointer
24 for the camera, for the rest of us. Could you use the
25 pointer? Oh, it's -- could you point again just for
1clarity, please?
2 A. (Indicating)
3 Q. Okay. Thank you very much indeed. Now, I'd
4 like to return to the point of what Mr. Santic was
5 doing when you had that brief encounter with him. Was
6 he with other people?
7 A. Vlado was standing. He was in the lobby,
8 between the reception desk and the restaurant. As I
9 have said, my impression was that he was panicky, that
10 he was very, very agitated. Yes. He was indicating
11 something with his hands, but around there in the lobby
12 there were more military policemen milling around.
13 Whether he was giving instructions to them, perhaps
14 guidelines, what kind of a conversation there was and
15 if there was any kind of conversation, I do not know.
16 I simply could not register something like that. I was
17 really focusing on what I wanted to know, that is, to
18 find out what was going on, and I tried to do it
19 through Vlado and I got the answer that I got.
20 Q. Now, you'd known Mr. Vlado Santic for some
21 considerable time; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So do you know what role or function he
24 performed in the military police?
25 A. Not quite. I believe he was a superior. He
1was a commander of something, but what rank, what
2 level, I just don't know.
3 Q. On the morning of the 16th of April, 1993,
4 Mr. Santic was wearing a uniform, was he?
5 A. He was.
6 Q. What kind of uniform was that?
7 A. Camouflage.
8 Q. Did he have any other distinguishing
9 equipment like a particular kind of belt or anything
10 like that?
11 A. No. I think he was dressed as usual.
12 Q. Was he carrying or wearing any form of
13 weapon?
14 A. Yes. He had a pistol.
15 Q. So when you left the hotel, can you say where
16 you went, please?
17 A. I went to Vinko Miskovic's house, because my
18 family was there in the cellar. Vinko Miskovic's
19 cellar.
20 Q. Did you return at all to the Hotel Vitez
21 during the rest of that day, the 16th of April?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Can you tell us, sir, when you next went back
24 to the Hotel Vitez?
25 A. I believe it was some six, seven, or eight
1days later. Not to the Hotel Vitez but it was when I
2 came back to Vitez again.
3 Q. When did you, in fact, or have you, in fact,
4 ever been back to the hotel since that day, the 16th of
5 April, and if so, when was your first visit?
6 A. I think it was sometime -- I don't know
7 exactly. If you want me to be specific I really can't,
8 but I know that I went to Vitez some seven or eight
9 days later, and to the hotel it could have been perhaps
10 10 or 12 days later. I don't know exactly.
11 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honours. I
12 have no further questions for Mr. Franjic. I would
13 like, if I may, to tender the transcript that has been
14 made of the interview that was undertaken. I have
15 referred to a section of it. I think though, as I
16 would always argue, if people want a part of a document
17 to go in we always argue it should be the full thing.
18 So I would like to tender that in evidence.
19 It hasn't been served today on Mr. Pavkovic,
20 because, of course, he received a copy in the course of
21 preceding weeks, as well as a copy of the audiotapes
22 that were taken at the time, and we were all present at
23 the interview. So unless my friend has any objection,
24 I would ask Your Honours to receive that in evidence.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Date, can we have a date?
1MR. BLAXILL: The date of the interview?
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
3 MR. BLAXILL: I should remember clearly; I
4 was there. But it was the 10th of March, Your
5 Honours.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic?
7 MR. PAVKOVIC: None, Mr. President. I can
8 confirm that it was indeed on the 10th of March,
9 1993 (sic).
10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Sorry, not '93, '99. I did
12 say 10th of March, 1993, but I meant 1999.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Can we receive this
14 document?
15 MR. BLAXILL: I do not have a copy in any
16 condition to hand to Your Honours, I'm afraid. May we
17 leave it till the break? And then sufficient copies
18 will be submitted to the Court.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
20 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged. Thank you.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
22 Counsel Pavkovic?
23 THE REGISTRAR: This will be 372.
24 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I should now
25 ask the usher to get D10/6, the one that we just saw,
1so as to round off the story that the witness has
2 commenced.
3 Re-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
4 Q. Mr. Franjic, you pointed out to us the route
5 that you took when you left the hotel on the 16th of
6 April, and you said that you went out through the main
7 entrance?
8 A. No, I only showed the terrace. I did not
9 show the main exit, nor nobody asked me about it.
10 Q. But you did say that you went out through the
11 main exit. Here on this photograph, we see two exits,
12 and they more or less look the same, except that over
13 one of them, it says "Hotel Vitez." Which one did you
14 use to get out? Which was the main entrance, to your
15 mind, at that time?
16 A. Exit number 1, because exit number 2 was
17 locked.
18 Q. And in the lower part of this hotel, were
19 there yet other exits, on the other side, which served
20 for different purposes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And those exits, were they locked, too, like
23 the 1 and the 2?
24 A. All of them except for number 1 had to be
25 locked.
1Q. Thank you. Now, will you show us, when you
2 reached the terrace which you had just showed to us,
3 where did you go? You were inside the hotel, and you
4 headed for the main -- to the main exit, and where did
5 you go then?
6 A. I said towards the department store.
7 Q. No, no, no, we're still in the hotel. You
8 reached the terrace, which is inside the hotel?
9 A. No. No. Right next to the terrace is the
10 coffee shop, the cafeteria. So from the office I
11 entered the cafeteria, went through the cafeteria, then
12 entered the hallway which links these two exits, passed
13 by this exit and came out of the main exit, because it
14 was the safest next to the exit two, because there were
15 some small fir trees.
16 Q. Will you please show us on the photograph?
17 Will you please show us on this photograph?
18 A. So here, this glass space here, this is where
19 the cafeteria is (indicating). This is the fence of
20 the terrace (indicating), and roughly here
21 (indicating). But inside the hotel is the kitchen,
22 office, and all the other work premises.
23 So through the restaurant, I went into the
24 office, then came to the cafeteria, that is, the door
25 into the cafeteria, (indiscernible) exit, depends, of
1course. Went through the cafeteria, reached this door
2 and the hallway between these two entrances
3 (indicating), went through it and came out here
4 (indicating), and then went like this (indicating),
5 because this was the safest. There is yet another part
6 of the hotel, where there are hotel rooms, and it was
7 quite welcome at the time because it provided a shelter
8 from the bullets and whatever.
9 So I walked here (indicating), walked again
10 past the fence of the terrace, and we have some pine
11 trees, and they are also a good shelter. Between the
12 fence and these pine trees, I went towards the
13 department store, which is around the corner, and then
14 got to the street between the buildings.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Now I understand which
16 route you took to get out of the hotel and away from
17 the hotel. I think this should be clear now.
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Pavkovic, there is one matter
20 which isn't clear, and it may be to do with the
21 interpretation, I'm not sure. The witness said that,
22 looking at the photograph D10/6, that the windows to
23 the left were the windows of the cafeteria. Now, is
24 that the coffee shop? Perhaps we can clear that up.
25 MR. PAVKOVIC: Judge May, perhaps the witness
1could explain it. He is much more familiar with it
2 than me.
3 Q. Is it the coffee and tea room, or the
4 cafeteria, or the coffee shop, or what is it?
5 A. This is the cafeteria (indicating), and there
6 is a cafeteria -- a coffee shop on the other side that
7 is on the other side of the coffee room, of the ...
8 Q. So inside the hotel, there is an area which
9 you went through to see if any of your staff were
10 there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you say this door was locked, door 2 was
13 locked. You did not find there any one of your
14 employees, and you headed very quickly towards the main
15 entrance and then onward, as you have already
16 described?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE MAY: It's still not clear.
19 Mr. Franjic, you referred, when you were
20 interviewed, to the investigator, as going through the
21 coffee shop -- I'm sorry, leaving the hotel by the exit
22 to the coffee shop. Now, where is the coffee shop in
23 the hotel?
24 A. No, I did not say that I left the hotel
25 through the coffee -- through the cafe. I said through
1the coffee shop of the hotel, the coffee room, so to
2 speak, because at that time one could not go into the
3 cafe, as the waiter on duty there, he locks the door
4 between the office -- that is, the waiter's working
5 space -- and this coffee shop. And at that time nobody
6 could go into it, and I couldn't, because -- and I
7 never had any keys to anything anyway.
8 JUDGE MAY: Well, we see, on the photograph,
9 the windows of the cafeteria. Where in relation to
10 that is the coffee shop?
11 A. Well, if you have the photograph of the hotel
12 from the other side, then I would like to see it, and
13 then I will be able to show you. It is very difficult
14 for me to show you where exactly here, but it is
15 opposite to these windows that you see here.
16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.
17 MR. PAVKOVIC:
18 Q. Mr. Franjic, so you left through the main
19 entrance simply because it was the only one which was
20 not locked?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Let us now go back to that moment
23 when you came across Vlado Santic in the lobby of the
24 hotel near the receptionists. You told us it was a
25 very brief encounter, and it was not very pleasant.
1You said you felt ill at ease, and you started
2 immediately towards the coffee shop and then you took
3 that route that we just talked about, and went out?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Well, yes, I -- no, I mean this is the
6 substance of what you told us; is that correct?
7 A. Well, no, I did not start immediately towards
8 the coffee shop. I said that I went through the
9 restaurant and then to the office to see in the coffee
10 shop whether there was any one there or not.
11 Q. Yes, but I was trying to simplify it. You
12 told us that it all took a very short time and when you
13 left the hotel, where was Vlado Santic at that time?
14 A. I don't know. When I entered the restaurant
15 and went through it, Vlado was still in the lobby
16 behind me.
17 Q. When you left the hotel and walked past the
18 hotel, hiding?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, if we assume that Vlado Santic followed
21 on your steps, that is, out of the hotel, would you,
22 since you were moving very fast, would you have been
23 able to see him in that area in front of the hotel?
24 A. By all means.
25 Q. I mean, like anyone else not only Vlado
1Santic, any person who would be in front of the hotel?
2 A. Naturally.
3 Q. And as you were coming out of the hotel, did
4 you see anyone in front of the hotel?
5 A. I saw a soldier taking his position there,
6 and a couple of military policemen, perhaps, there at
7 the entrance were going out, some were coming in. That
8 was roughly that.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Franjic, you told us you were
10 not a member of any organised military formation?
11 A. Right. Not in the beginning of the conflict,
12 except for the village guards, if one can call it an
13 army formation, that is.
14 Q. What I am interested in is the period of time
15 prior to the conflict. Why did you then go out to
16 acquire that military outfit that you mentioned today?
17 A. Well, what shall I tell you? For some
18 reasons of safety, I should say. We all watched --
19 listened to the media, we all knew what was going on,
20 and I suppose I would have bought something more
21 substantial had I had the opportunity.
22 Q. No, I was referring only to your outfit, to
23 your clothes?
24 A. Oh, why did I buy it? Well, because it was a
25 camouflage uniform, and I guess I felt that if the need
1arose, I could hide. I would be better protected. But
2 to be quite honest, it was quite in; camouflage
3 uniforms were rather in at the time.
4 Q. That is what I wanted you to tell us to
5 better describe this period of time when those ethnic
6 emotions were also rather hot. That was also a way to
7 show your national feelings?
8 A. Well, yes, of course.
9 Q. Now I should like to ask you something about
10 the badge that you wore on that jacket. You told us
11 that you also had it on the 15th of April, 1993. So my
12 question is: Is that a badge which related you to an
13 army unit which epitomised, which stood for your
14 membership in a particular unit?
15 A. Oh, come, no. It is simply -- probably I
16 just wanted to express my, my ethnic feeling, my
17 feeling of belonging to a particular ethnicity. It was
18 a matter of pride to me.
19 Q. But was that a badge that one wore only
20 with -- that went only with the army clothes, or did
21 people wear it simply to express their ethnic feelings,
22 and so people would put it on their civilian clothes?
23 A. Well, it was that kind that I could afford at
24 the time. I had bought them for my children, but
25 sometimes I wore it simply to express, to give vent to
1my pride, to give a demonstration of my dignity of my
2 ethnic pride, things like that. But, yes, there were
3 also those real gem, and if I may call them that,
4 badges which did indicate a membership in a particular
5 formation, but I did not have that kind of badge.
6 Q. Today, in response to the Prosecutor's
7 question as to what the situation was like in the hotel
8 on the 15th of April, 1993, you answered that the
9 situation was normal. Thus you stated the situation
10 was normal. What did you mean by that? Did you mean
11 that it was as it was during the previous days?
12 A. A usual working day. There were no
13 problems. There were no incidents. So all of it was
14 the usual thing for me, normal.
15 Q. So on the 15th of April, 1993 it is not only
16 on the 15th of April, 1993, that the military were
17 there, so it is not only on the 15th of April, 1993,
18 that the military were there at the hotel, they were
19 there considerably earlier right?
20 A. Oh, yes, 1992, as far back that.
21 Q. You said to us today that when you left your
22 old house you had a pistol as well.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you explain to us why you had obtained
25 this weapon?
1A. Why? Probably for safety reasons. I
2 probably didn't get it to show off. I obviously
3 thought I needed it.
4 Q. Did you feel threatened?
5 A. Of course I felt threatened. I told the
6 Prosecutor all the things that happened to me.
7 Q. All right. I don't wish us to repeat all of
8 that. You said that.
9 A. I didn't have the opportunity of telling you
10 about some uglier things that happened but never mind.
11 Q. The presence of numerous military men in
12 front your house on the 15th of April, in the evening,
13 is that the reason why you then sent away your family,
14 your wife, to a safer place?
15 A. Sorry, I didn't understand your question
16 right. I had other things on my mind.
17 Q. Was it fear for your family that evening, on
18 the 15th of April, 1993, when you saw all those
19 soldiers in front of your house, was fear the reason
20 why you sent your family to a safer place?
21 A. That was the main reason, because now, when I
22 asked you to repeat your question, I was thinking about
23 a family situation that happened. It was a tragedy
24 that occurred and that's why I sent my family away.
25 One of my sons was already staying with my brothers,
1and I sent the other one with my wife that day.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Franjic. I have another
3 question. In response to the Prosecutor's question,
4 you said that that morning, on the 16th of April, 1993,
5 Vlado Santic was dressed as usual; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Briefly, please, tell me very briefly, what
8 did you mean when you said "as usual"? What did that
9 mean for you?
10 A. "As usual"? I was referring to Vlado.
11 That's the way I would see him. He was wearing a
12 camouflage uniform, a belt, a pistol. That was it.
13 Q. Is that how you saw Vlado dressed during
14 those previous days when you would come there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Yes. Thank you, witness. I have no further
17 questions.
18 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I
19 have no further questions.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.
21 We have no questions for the witness.
22 Mr. Franjic, thank you so much for testifying
23 yesterday and today. You may now be released.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 (The witness withdrew)
1JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic, are you
2 going to call Mr. Groenewold?
3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. Groenewold should be here
4 by now, and he should be ready to enter the courtroom.
5 May I say, Mr. President, that I believe that his
6 questioning, as we stated a few days ago, will be very
7 brief, and I believe that we will be able to take care
8 of the other two witnesses today, character witnesses.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes, I agree with
10 you. It should be extremely brief.
11 (The witness entered court)
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Groenewold, good
13 morning. Would you please make the solemn
14 declaration?
15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
17 truth.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
19 seated.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 WITNESS: WOUT GROENEWOLD
22 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
23 Q. Good day, Witness. I would like to introduce
24 myself to you first. My name is Petar Pavkovic. I'm
25 an attorney at law and I'm Defence counsel for Vladimir
1Santic. I don't know whether you can hear the
2 interpretation of what I'm saying.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the
5 court now? Could you give the court your name and
6 surname, your age, your occupation, and your place of
7 residence?
8 A. My name is Wout Groenewold. I'm 40 years
9 old. I'm a director of school in Amsterdam, and I'm
10 living in Zaandam.
11 Q. Can you please repeat the place where you
12 live? You were not understood exactly by the
13 interpreters.
14 A. I live in Zaandam. It's near Amsterdam.
15 Q. You said that you were the principal of a
16 school, if I understand you correctly.
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. Can you remember whether, during the school
19 year of '92/'93, you were also principal of this school
20 or, to put this better, for how long have you been
21 principal of that school?
22 A. Since 1985.
23 Q. Thank you. Please, if we now go back to 1992
24 and 1993, at that time did you meet a family that came
25 from Bosnia, a family of refugees, the family of Stipo
1Alilovic?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Can you describe the circumstances under
4 which you met them?
5 A. The first person of the family I met was the
6 woman. She came to my school and she applied her
7 children. Well, her oldest daughter, because the son
8 Petar was still too young. Then he came too. I don't
9 know the word in English Peuterspeelzaal, because he
10 was not four years old yet, and that was in December
11 '92. They came from a refugee camp, I think,
12 somewhere near Rosmala (phoen), I think to remember.
13 Q. Since then you would see them from time to
14 time; is that right?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. When you would meet them, would they be
17 accompanied by a person who would help them understand
18 things better?
19 A. Yes. The mother had a friend, girlfriend,
20 who was a -- I don't know whether she was really a
21 friend or perhaps she only lived near her, and she was
22 the mother of her pupil who already left our school. I
23 tried to remember the maiden name but that's
24 difficult. No, I don't know.
25 Q. If I would say that this is Mrs. Hume, would
1that name ring a bell? No?
2 A. Is that her maiden name?
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Mrs. Hume.
4 MR. PAVKOVIC:
5 Q. What about Mrs. Dasovic?
6 A. I think that's right. She had two
7 daughters? Usually I better know the children than the
8 parents. Dasovic. I think that's right. Do you have
9 an address? She lived Knollendamstraat?
10 Q. I don't have it here with me now but I think
11 that what you have said is sufficient.
12 Please tell me, sir, after you met the mother
13 of these children, did you get to meet their father as
14 well, her husband?
15 A. Yes. I met him several times, not often.
16 Mostly the mother brought the children to school, and I
17 think the first time I met the father, that was after a
18 few months, I think, perhaps in January or February.
19 But he usually did not bring the children and I did not
20 visit their home, but sometimes I -- or we met in the
21 street and they said hello because I knew his face, but
22 we never spoke in that time.
23 Q. Please tell me, did you always know when
24 parents brought children to school? Would you always
25 see them? You are the principal of the school.
1A. Not always, but usually when the door opens
2 and the children come in, I'm at the door, and I'm
3 there till someone needs me. Sometimes the parents
4 want to talk to me or -- well, sometimes there are
5 problems, but usually I open the door and then the
6 children come in, and the small children are brought by
7 the parents. Well, most of them.
8 Q. Do you have several teachers in your school?
9 A. Yes. I hope so.
10 Q. I don't know if I'm going to pronounce this
11 right, but Mrs. Kolk, is she also a teacher in your
12 school?
13 A. Yes, she is.
14 Q. Is she still employed in your school?
15 A. She's still employed, and she was the teacher
16 of Petar, the younger one, but that was from, I think,
17 '93, August '93, because up to that time he was too
18 young. Perhaps even later, because I think Petar --
19 Petar's birthday was about -- somewhere in November, I
20 think.
21 Q. Please tell me, we're talking about such very
22 young children -- actually, I'd like to withdraw this
23 question.
24 You said that you did not visit the Alilovic
25 family. According to your school rules and according
1to customary behaviour there, would the teacher go to
2 see the house of the parents of the children so that
3 she would see how these children lived? Could you tell
4 me about that?
5 A. Yes, that's right. Usually children are
6 visited once in two years. So not every year, once in
7 two years.
8 Q. On such occasions are teachers supposed to
9 send a report to you, as principal of the school,
10 stating what they noticed on the occasion of such
11 visits?
12 A. Only if there are things that I should know,
13 things that are special, which could be important for
14 other things outside of school, but usually no.
15 Q. Are there rules and regulations here in the
16 Netherlands that make it binding upon you to keep
17 documents in schools for a certain number of years?
18 A. I have to keep some documents. Most
19 documents for, I think, five years.
20 Q. So today, even if we wanted to obtain
21 something from that period, obviously we could not get
22 any such reports if they were significant at the time.
23 A. No, that's right. I tried to find things
24 from days back, but in '93 or '94 we got a computer
25 system for the first time, and since that time I have
1some records but then only records of children who are
2 present or not present, and all I found was a
3 subscription only of the oldest daughter, not from the
4 son. That's not an excuse, but the school had a
5 fusion -- is that an English word -- then together an
6 old school in '95, and then the administration was
7 totally changed. So before August '95, I have almost
8 nothing more. Nothing is left.
9 Q. Could you please tell me now what Stipo
10 Alilovic looked like physically? Could you describe
11 him to me physically?
12 A. Tall man, grey hair, but he changed a lot the
13 last years, because you know, of course, he died of
14 cancer. So he became -- how do you call it? Smaller.
15 JUDGE MAY: "Gaunt" is the word, "gaunt."
16 A. I'll try to remember. He had very strong
17 eyes, but for -- if you've got ten pictures, I think I
18 can pick him out, but to describe is difficult.
19 MR. PAVKOVIC:
20 Q. Did he have a beard?
21 A. Yes, grey.
22 Q. During all the time you knew him, up until
23 his death, did he always wear a beard?
24 A. I think not in the beginning, but later he
25 wore a beard, short.
1Q. You said that Stipo died. Can you remember
2 which year this was?
3 A. That must have been -- I think it was in
4 March, April '95, because Emma was still in school and
5 she left in August '95, somewhere there. I don't
6 remember.
7 Q. You said that before he died he was sick,
8 that he had cancer. Can you remember whether at that
9 time he was already afflicted by this illness in '92,
10 '93, '94? Was he an exhausted person? You said that
11 he was gaunt, that his cheeks were sallow. So what was
12 the impression one would get, that he was a sickly
13 person and in poor physical shape? I don't know how to
14 put this. If you know anything about this, could you
15 tell us?
16 A. I think in '92/'93 -- he was not a fat man,
17 he was never a fat man, but in '92/'93, he was -- I
18 forgot that word.
19 Q. Gaunt.
20 A. Gaunt, as in '94/'95. Then he became more
21 gaunt than before.
22 Q. Do you know whether Stipo drank?
23 A. Drank?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. I don't know. He smoked a lot.
1Q. You don't know.
2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I shall be
3 finished soon, but I would like to ask for a photograph
4 to be shown to the witness. It is included in document
5 C10. So can the witness then state whether that is a
6 photograph of the person that he talked about today?
7 Q. Witness, can you tell us who you see on this
8 photograph? Is that the person you described today as
9 Stipo Alilovic?
10 A. Yes, I think so, yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness. I have no
12 further questions for the time being.
13 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
15 Mr. Terrier?
16 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
18 Q. Good morning, Witness. My name is Franck
19 Terrier, and I represent the Prosecution in this case.
20 I should like to ask you a few questions.
21 What concerns this particular stage of the
22 proceedings is the following question: Is it possible
23 to establish beyond any doubt, and without an error,
24 that Stipo Alilovic never left Amsterdam on the 15th,
25 16th, and 17th of April, 1993? So the question is very
1precise. Can you help us to resolve it or not?
2 A. No, I can't.
3 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President. I
4 have no further questions.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. I have no further
7 questions either.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: We don't have any questions
9 for the witness.
10 Mr. Groenewold, thank you so much for giving
11 evidence in court. You may now be released.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: And I suggest that we take
14 now a coffee break, a recess now for 30 minutes.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
17 (The witness entered court)
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could you
19 please stand and make the solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
22 truth.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
24 Counsel Pavkovic, I assume, since these are
25 two character witnesses, the testimony can be fairly
1brief, so if you would get to the point.
2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 This witness will be brief in his statement. The other
4 one will be a little longer, but I hope I shall be able
5 to comply with your suggestion.
6 WITNESS: ZELJKO KOCAJ
7 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
8 Q. Could you please tell us your full name and
9 some other personal details about yourself?
10 A. My name is Zeljko Kocaj. I was born on the
11 7th of November, 1958, in Sarajevo, but I have lived in
12 Vitez all my life, and I still live there. I completed
13 primary and secondary school in Vitez. I graduated in
14 Zagreb at the faculty of economics. After that, I
15 returned to Vitez.
16 Q. Very well.
17 A. I am employed in a company there, or rather I
18 was employed until 1991. After that, after the war in
19 Central Bosnia, I was appointed the director of the
20 town library in Vitez, the public library. I am also a
21 correspondent, journalist of Vecernji List, and I also
22 am in literature. I have published three books up to
23 now, and my second book deals with the war in Central
24 Bosnia.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kocaj. I hope that we have
1introduced you sufficiently, at least, as regards
2 facts. Can you tell us now, you live in Vitez; when
3 did you meet Vlado Santic?
4 A. I got to know Vlado Santic when I was 12
5 years old, so it was around 1970.
6 Q. Can you tell me where you met him?
7 A. In my neighbourhood, when he moved into the
8 building next to the one I live in, and so we started
9 associating from that time.
10 Q. And did you become friends with Vlado when
11 you were boys?
12 A. Yes, we became friends. As soon as he
13 arrived, we simply started keeping company,
14 spontaneously, and that's how it went on for a long
15 time.
16 Q. Can we say that you had some interests in
17 common at that time which drew you together and on
18 which your friendship was based?
19 A. Well, you could say that we simply felt close
20 as persons, and we kept company the way young people
21 do. We engaged in sports, hiking, and other things we
22 were interested in at the time.
23 Q. Can you tell us what interests Vlado Santic
24 showed at that time?
25 A. Well, Vlado was, I might say, a boy like all
1of us at that time, but I can say that even then, he
2 knew what he wanted in life. He was more mature than I
3 was, and I still think so today. It was a
4 characteristic of his, this maturity, which is what I
5 remember him by.
6 Q. What about his attitude towards your other
7 friends that you had in common?
8 A. Well, his attitude to our other friends was
9 always, in my opinion, very correct. He was always
10 kind of protective towards me, perhaps because he was
11 stronger physically and more mature than the rest of
12 us, so it seemed natural.
13 Q. During boyhood, boys sometimes have fights
14 with their peers. Did Vlado show any such aggressive
15 tendencies then?
16 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I never got into
17 fights; it was not a characteristic of mine. And I
18 don't remember Vlado ever getting into a fight,
19 although I'm sure he would have got into one to protect
20 me, if that had been necessary.
21 Q. So you saw Vlado as more mature, as a boy who
22 knew what he wanted; do you remember what Vlado chose
23 as his vocation in life?
24 A. Well, after primary school, Vlado went to
25 Sarajevo, to the secondary school for policemen, and
1that was his vocation.
2 Q. And that was when you separated, probably?
3 A. Well, I can't say we separated, because we
4 spent the weekends together. Sarajevo is not far from
5 Vitez. Vlado did go to school there, but there were
6 weekends, there were summer holidays, winter holidays.
7 So our friendship continued, especially since in the
8 period of secondary school, we used to go hiking in the
9 hills, in the mountains. We would often go to Zabrdze,
10 near Vitez, where there is a mountaineer's cottage. We
11 would also explore a cave on Kruscica. That was
12 something we were very enthusiastic about, so we used
13 to do it almost every weekend.
14 Q. Do you remember the time when Vladimir Santic
15 came back from his schooling in Sarajevo to Vitez?
16 A. Yes, Vladimir came back from Sarajevo after
17 three years, and I think that he got a job almost at
18 once at the police station. I was still going to the
19 four-year grammar school, and we still kept company, we
20 still saw each other, but at that time, Vlado already
21 had a girlfriend, who is his wife today, and he got
22 married quite early. This shows how mature he was.
23 So his life became different from the kind of
24 life we had had up to then, I had. He wanted to have a
25 family, to get on in his career, be a professional.
1And all this seemed natural to me, because his maturity
2 was simply a part of his character.
3 Q. So you kept company when he was employed at
4 the police station. Do you know what Vlado was like as
5 an employee, as a worker?
6 A. I know well that Vlado wanted to get on in
7 his career as a policeman, which he demonstrated later
8 on when he enrolled into the post-secondary
9 administrative school, and I think that whatever he
10 did, he did professionally.
11 For a time, he was moved from post to post.
12 From a policeman, he became a person in charge of
13 issuing documents, but then he was promoted. He kept
14 being promoted, so he got quite high up. Then I went
15 to Zagreb to study, and then we saw each other less
16 often, because I did not come to Vitez that often until
17 I graduated in 1983.
18 Q. Thank you. You said that Vlado got married.
19 Did you meet his wife?
20 A. I know Vlado's wife quite well because her
21 sister is still a neighbour of mine. So I know the
22 family and I know that she, in her own way, is a mature
23 woman, and I know that -- it seems to me that Vlado is
24 still in love with his wife and that they are
25 soulmates. I think that that was the most important
1thing to him, apart from his career.
2 Q. At that time did you visit each other?
3 A. We visited each other but not so very often,
4 because I was still unmarried, I was still single, so
5 we had different obligations. I had already got a job
6 in Slobodan Princip Seljo where I was in charge of
7 procurement, and I had less time for a social life, so
8 to say, but we did visit each other from time to time.
9 Vlado had his own obligations, so we did not see each
10 other as often as before but, of course, we didn't stop
11 seeing each other.
12 Q. Does Vlado Santic have children?
13 A. Yes, he has sons, two very nice young men,
14 Sasa and Sinesja (phoen). It's a family I know
15 relatively well, and I think that they are just an
16 average Vitez family. There were no scandals
17 associated with the family. They're just a normal,
18 average family from Vitez.
19 Q. You have just told us that you are not
20 married, that you are single -- you were single at that
21 time. So as a single man, were you able to evaluate
22 Vlado's attitude towards his children?
23 A. Well, as far as I know, Vlado's attitude
24 toward his children was -- it's hard to describe. It
25 was fatherly. He was a fatherly authority for his
1children. His eldest son is of an artistic
2 temperament, and the other one is a typical teenager,
3 and I think that it was a very harmonious family.
4 Q. I would now like to take you back to the time
5 of the first multi-party elections, the time when
6 national consciousness was awakened and the national
7 feelings came to the fore. Can you tell me, when you
8 recall that time, was Vlado Santic one of those who
9 might be described as becoming nationally conscious at
10 that time?
11 A. As far as I can recall those times in all
12 these events, Vlado Santic's name was never mentioned
13 except as a person working as a professional policeman
14 in the Vitez police station. I cannot say that
15 Vladimir was ever singled out or, rather, that he ever
16 drew attention to himself as a nationalist.
17 I personally wondered whether he would join
18 the HDZ, whether he would stay a member of the SDP,
19 what he was thinking. There was no doubt that he
20 continued doing his job in a professional manner,
21 together with people of different ethnic origin. There
22 was still Serbs and Bosniaks then at the police
23 station.
24 Q. Mr. Kocaj, since at that time these national
25 feelings became so fervent that they went beyond the
1bounds of tolerance toward other ethnic groups, did you
2 notice that Vlado ever expressed intolerance toward
3 members of other ethnic communities?
4 A. At the time -- well, in the '90s we would see
5 each other occasionally, and I never felt any marked
6 change in Vlado's views. I never felt any kind of
7 intolerance when he expressed his views on politics or
8 the political events in our country. He did not change
9 his previous views radically. I think he was simply
10 doing his job, trying to do it professionally, the way
11 he had done everything since the end of his schooling,
12 and I think that this is characteristic of the period
13 as I recall it.
14 Q. If we were now to glance briefly at 1991 and
15 1992 and the overall political, social, and economic
16 situation, and if we were to recall the functioning of
17 the government bodies, both the central and the local
18 government, could you tell us very briefly what the
19 prevailing circumstances were?
20 A. Well, starting in 1991, things simply started
21 to happen, first of all as a consequence of the war in
22 Croatia, and then as a consequence of everything that
23 was happening in Bosnia, all the political changes, all
24 the misunderstandings and everything else that was
25 happening. Little by little, a kind of ethnic
1stratification began. A number of economic problems
2 cropped up, and there was a feeling that the government
3 was functioning less and less well. It was harder and
4 harder for the politicians to agree.
5 But until the open conflict broke out, as far
6 as I can remember, if we are talking about Vlado
7 Santic, I have no knowledge of Vlado Santic ever
8 expressing any nationalist views. I think he simply
9 continued doing his job in the police force, according
10 to the regulations and the rules.
11 Everybody in Vitez knows he tried to do his
12 job highly professionally throughout his career, and I
13 remember that he worked with people of different
14 nationalities, different ethnic origins, and I do not
15 believe that any situations ever occurred in which
16 Vlado Santic ever played that kind of role. I think
17 that his goal was simply to do his job professionally
18 and leave politics alone.
19 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Vlado as a person
20 at that time working in the criminal police. At that
21 highly complex time there were many deviant events,
22 occurrences; is that true?
23 A. Well, at that time there were a number of
24 problems, that is true.
25 Q. At this Court, some witnesses said that
1Vlado, working in the criminal police and investigating
2 crimes, investigated only those crimes which were
3 perpetrated against Croats and that he had a negligent
4 attitude as a professional towards crimes committed
5 against members of other ethnic groups, especially
6 Muslims. Is that assessment, which some witnesses have
7 put forward before this Court, true in your opinion?
8 A. I have no knowledge of Vlado behaving like
9 that, and I do not know on what basis anyone might come
10 to this conclusion. The mechanisms according to which
11 the police functioned were quite clear at the time, and
12 I think that this is not true.
13 Q. At that time the situation became very
14 complex and open clashes began between the Croats and
15 the Muslims. There were various incidents. Can you
16 tell me whether, at that time -- you say Vlado was a
17 professional policeman -- whether at that time, in your
18 conversation was him, you were able to conclude that he
19 was changing his attitude toward members of other
20 ethnic groups, especially Muslims?
21 A. At, to be quite honest, we did not see each
22 other as often as before because I was concerned with
23 my family and what I was able to do. I worked for
24 Caritas, then on the radio and television, but I did
25 not notice any changes in Vlado which might lead to his
1being here before this Court today.
2 Q. Well, you have just answered the question I
3 was about to ask. So the war is over and you did not
4 hear because the war, unfortunately, is still a
5 frequent topic of conversation today. So did you ever
6 hear that Vlado Santic played a role in this
7 unfortunate war which would lead to his being accused
8 here?
9 A. Well, in fact, Vlado Santic began to be
10 mentioned only when speculations arose with regard to
11 the indictment we saw first in the newspapers. Then it
12 was published, and it was only then that I personally
13 learned that the name of Vlado Santic was being linked
14 to a certain event. Until that time, I had never heard
15 his name ever being connected to a war crime.
16 Q. Thank you. My last question: Vitez is a
17 small town, including its surroundings, and in small
18 towns everyone knows everything about everybody. If
19 something bad could have been said about Vladimir
20 Santic in such a small town, in such a milieu, and
21 considering your job, you would probably have heard
22 this?
23 A. I think I would have certainly heard about
24 it, and I think that his name would have been mentioned
25 very often. I think it would have been very difficult
1for me not to hear about something that had happened in
2 which Vladimir Santic had taken part and for me not to
3 hear about it, the stories going round Vitez. I had no
4 information about anything bad until people started
5 discussing the indictment. I was a little surprised to
6 hear not just "Vladimir," but to hear several of the
7 names mentioned in the indictment in 1997.
8 Q. Finally, Mr. Kocaj, I would like to ask you
9 to show us the person you have been talking about today
10 in this courtroom.
11 A. Well, Vladimir Santic is sitting to my left,
12 in the last row.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. PAVKOVIC: We may state that the witness
15 recognised Vladimir Santic in the courtroom.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kocaj. I have no further
17 questions at the present.
18 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, Mr. Radovic
19 wishes to put a few questions to the witness.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic.
22 Q. Mr. Kocaj, I heard from your testimony today
23 that you have written a book about the war in Central
24 Bosnia?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. Is that book finished and printed?
2 A. Yes. It has been printed and published. It
3 was published in 1996, if I remember correctly, in --
4 Q. Just a moment. I will ask you questions. I
5 would like to know the title of the book.
6 A. The book is entitled "The Wounded Swan."
7 Q. Can that book only be obtained in the Vitez
8 area, or can we buy it in Zagreb? Or don't you know?
9 A. I know that it should be available in Zagreb
10 because the publisher is Tonimir (phoen) from
11 Varazdinske Toplice, so it should be available in
12 bookshops in Zagreb.
13 Q. When you wrote this book, does this book
14 contain your subjective view of the events in the Lasva
15 River Valley, or is it based on your research of
16 certain documentation?
17 A. Well, I used the chronology of events in the
18 Lasva River Valley as a kind of guideline, but within
19 that, I wrote eight or nine stories which speak in a
20 subjective manner about my experience of the war in the
21 Lasva River Valley and of what happened, first of all,
22 to the Croats, because I was able to see that and
23 experience that. I was able to learn about the
24 suffering of the Croats in the Lasva River Valley. So
25 it is my view of everything I experienced during that
1year and a little more.
2 Q. So these are events seen through your eyes?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. In that book, do you mention certain people
5 and their role in these events?
6 A. In the book, I mentioned certain persons, but
7 in a literary manner, not using their full name. In
8 literature --
9 Q. Yes, we know what literature is. I would
10 just like to know whether you describe the actions of
11 certain persons in these pre-war and wartime events.
12 A. Yes, mostly, yes.
13 Q. And may we know which persons you described?
14 A. Well, let us say in one story, in one of the
15 stories, a character I described was the late Darko
16 Kraljevic.
17 Q. But as far as I understand, this does not
18 have a historical background; it's your subjective
19 interpretation? Or is it exactly what he did?
20 A. Well, I used real-life events, and then I
21 wrote about them from my viewpoint.
22 Q. So on what basis did you establish the actual
23 events? On the basis of documents, or stories that
24 went 'round?
25 A. On the basis of the chronology of events
1which we had on the radio and television broadcasting
2 station where I worked during the war.
3 Q. So you obtained your knowledge on the basis
4 of those documents which were available to the
5 television?
6 A. Yes, that's one thing, and the other thing is
7 what I experienced personally.
8 Q. At which television were you employed?
9 A. Radio/television Vitez, the local radio and
10 television station in Vitez.
11 Q. And finally, can you tell me whether you
12 think that on the basis of your book, we could
13 establish something that is true, factually true?
14 A. I personally believe you could.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. RADOVIC: That's all.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Terrier?
19 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
21 Q. I am Franck Terrier, and I represent the
22 Prosecution here. I shall ask you a few questions, and
23 I do not think I will be very long. But to link up
24 with the questions that Mr. Radovic asked you about the
25 book that you wrote, about the events in the Lasva, did
1you write a chapter in that book, or a story, that
2 would be describing the events in Ahmici on the 16th of
3 April, '93?
4 A. Yes. In a story, in the beginning of a
5 story, I mention an event and a conversation with a
6 friend, mentioning what happened in Ahmici, where both
7 he and I -- or rather I did feel that we saw it as a --
8 we in Vitez saw it as a tragic episode which needed to
9 be remembered.
10 Q. Could you please be more specific. What
11 impression can your reader derive about this tragic
12 episode in Ahmici?
13 A. Well, the idea, I believe, is quite clear.
14 It says -- it talks about our boys and says that there
15 a crime was committed, and I think -- I'm not sure if
16 I'm quoting my sentence correctly, but I'm saying that
17 this is a heavy burden, this is a leaden burden on our
18 souls, and it will remain so. This is something that I
19 write about.
20 Q. But this idea about Ahmici, is it your
21 personal statement or the result of -- the product of
22 conversations of meetings that you had with various
23 people?
24 A. To begin with, after I learned what had
25 happened in Ahmici and after, I talked to a number of
1rank-and-file people in Vitez. I think that -- yes, we
2 felt it was a disgrace, and I believe that Croats were
3 having a hard time to come to terms with it. It was
4 rather a taboo topic, and people were rather reluctant
5 to talk about it, I suppose because they felt ashamed,
6 they felt shamed that it had happened.
7 Q. So this is a crime, you say. Do you have any
8 idea who might have committed the crime? I'm not
9 asking you the names of individual persons, but the
10 unit responsible for it, the chain of command, the
11 kinds of units, military units.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic?
13 MR. PAVKOVIC: I apologise, but I think that
14 we're now getting into examination about facts; that
15 is, the events that took place there. That is my
16 feeling. If the witness begins to answer this
17 question -- and as far as I know, this week, my
18 colleague Susak also tried to examine a character
19 witness as to facts, and there was an intervention
20 then. I believe we are dealing with a similar
21 situation, so will my learned friend from the
22 Prosecution please confine himself to questions -- that
23 is, answers about matters that this witness has been
24 called upon to testify about.
25 MR. TERRIER: I believe, Mr. President, that
1he wrote a book about that war, and it therefore seemed
2 to me important to ask him about what this book writes
3 about. Of course, we bear in mind that this is a
4 literary work, and of course -- I mean, that is that
5 kind of witness. I mean, he wrote about these things,
6 simply.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I agree with you. You
8 may continue.
9 MR. TERRIER:
10 Q. So will you please answer my question? I was
11 asking you if you, as the author of this book, if you
12 held a certain idea, a certain view about the process,
13 about actions which produced that crime, the unit which
14 was responsible for it.
15 A. I shall begin by answering the second part of
16 your question. I really do not know who committed the
17 crime. We all, today, especially, know or learned that
18 it was Croats, or rather Croat soldiers. What units,
19 what uniforms they were, I do not know. And that is
20 something that we are having, both me and other people
21 in Vitez, are finding very hard, because of the nature
22 of that crime.
23 What you asked me about the chain of command
24 and things, I really can't answer that. I could only
25 speculate, bearing in mind the whole chain of events,
1the series of events before that, that eventually
2 resulted in what happened in Ahmici and the way it
3 happened. But I'm afraid we would be getting into some
4 sociopsychological waters, not to mention the whole
5 genesis of the conflict in Central Bosnia, from the
6 conflict in 1992 to Dusina in January 1993, and so on
7 and so forth. I'm not sure that you really want me to
8 answer your question in that manner.
9 Q. No, Witness, certainly not. I expected a
10 simpler answer. This is a crime, and crimes usually
11 lead to some investigation, and that is the only reason
12 why I asked the question. But your friend, Vlado
13 Santic, who was a member of the Croat community and an
14 HVO officer and a policeman, didn't he somehow respond
15 or react to that crime, to do something about it?
16 A. Well, I can answer you that question in the
17 following way: During the war, I do not think I ever
18 met Vlado Santic during the war except in 1994 -- or
19 rather 1995, when we met by chance, and that was the
20 first time that we had time for a chat of some
21 duration, so I did mention that crime. As far as I can
22 recall, Vlado Santic showed that he was thinking along
23 similar lines, and he said something that I really
24 hoped I would hear from him. He also said that he
25 believed it was a war crime and that somebody would
1have to be called to account for it, and that is what I
2 think about it too. And I don't really know what else
3 to say. Perhaps, if you rephrase your question,
4 perhaps I might answer it differently.
5 Q. But could you tell us more specifically
6 during which period of time you did not see your friend
7 Vlado Santic?
8 A. I did not see him in 1993 and the first half
9 of '94.
10 Q. In the beginning of 1993, that is, in April,
11 what were you doing at that time?
12 A. In '93, I was already with the Vitez
13 radio/television and was a journalist.
14 Q. As a journalist, what field did you cover?
15 What area of activity did you cover?
16 A. I had a programme which was called "Loose
17 Goods," and it was a collage. There was a little bit
18 of information, a little bit of politics, some
19 entertainment, and a features part which would cover
20 the developments, by and large, the developments in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was the principal thing.
22 And secondly, I performed all the
23 journalistic tasks; that is, writing the local news,
24 various greetings, listeners' wishes, things like that.
25 Q. Were you a member of a political party?
1A. No.
2 Q. And did you, at any time, hold a responsible
3 position in any of the institutions in any of the
4 establishments representing the Croat community?
5 A. Sometime, if I remember properly, sometime in
6 the summer of '93, when the director of
7 radio/television, Slavko Pavlovic, retired, then I took
8 over the post of the manager of the radio/television
9 there.
10 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Usher, will you please --
11 this is not an exhibit for the Prosecution, and I am
12 not tendering it. This is a document, and I want the
13 witness to explain something to me, simply. That is
14 all. Mr. Usher, will you please give it to the Chamber
15 and also place a copy of it on the ELMO.
16 Q. Witness, will you please look at the bottom
17 and to the left on this document; tell us if this is
18 your name and your signature to the left.
19 Witness, you can look directly, because you
20 don't have it on your monitor, I don't think.
21 A. Yes, at the bottom, to the left, this is my
22 name.
23 Q. And your signature?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you please explain? What is this
1about? What is this document?
2 A. At that time, I volunteered as the secretary
3 of the employers' cooperative, which was formed in
4 Vitez, I believe, in October '93, and I am still the
5 secretary of the employers' cooperative in Vitez, still
6 a volunteer. And as far as I remember, this document
7 was to show where people worked during a particular
8 period of time. I notice here the name of Josipa
9 Bracic, and I can't remember other names, but this was
10 simply to certify that such-and-such people were
11 employed by the employers' cooperative. It was needed
12 for some records -- what do you call it -- the Ministry
13 of Defence, or whatever it's called. I don't really
14 remember what that particular body is called.
15 Q. And my last question, if I may: You told us
16 that your friend Vlado Santic, as a policeman, behaved
17 very correctly, professionally, and impartially, but
18 you also said that you did not have any precise
19 information as to how he operated in his professional
20 performance, that you did not have any information
21 about his professional performance; is that correct?
22 A. Excuse me, but what period do you have in
23 mind?
24 Q. I'm talking about 1992/93.
25 A. In 1992 -- well, it is not that I didn't have
1any information, any knowledge for the whole year, but
2 as of November 1992, I really wasn't coming across
3 Vlado Santic any more, for objective reasons. I
4 remember the family, and I was simply devoting myself
5 to the family and things that I was doing at the time.
6 That was the -- what I would call a leaden time, the
7 time of political upheaval, political unrest, and I
8 really did not feel like going out and socialising with
9 anyone. I didn't simply think it was a propitious time
10 for that. I'm not a particularly brave man, and I
11 prefer family life, I must say, to some activities, so
12 I just performed my professional work, and that was
13 that.
14 Q. Yes, but, Witness, didn't you even talk on
15 the telephone or just meet anywhere with Vlado Santic?
16 Isn't it paradoxical, after all, that at some moment
17 the circumstances become very difficult, the tension
18 mounts, and at that particular moment you -- I do not
19 say that you break, but you are simply not seeing your
20 close and old friend any more. Doesn't that sound --
21 isn't that a little bit curious?
22 A. Well, I don't see why should it be a
23 surprise. Simply we were both too busy to meet too
24 often. At such a time you don't really think very much
25 about going out, about hanging out. Nobody feels like
1going out, or at least I did not feel like that.
2 I worked at the radio and television. I
3 spent there 12, 16 hours sometimes if it was
4 necessary. I was doing my job and I was going home. I
5 had a small child, and I wanted to spend as much time
6 as possible with him and my wife. So we were not
7 seeing many people at the time except for our next-door
8 neighbours.
9 As soon as the night would fall there were
10 problems on the road, as soon as it grew dark, so why
11 would one go out? Information about what I wanted to
12 know, I more or less had this information. I came from
13 Vitez. I knew what things looked like. I do not see
14 anything paradoxical, simply it was life and we just
15 parted our ways for awhile.
16 Q. So it was not the differences of opinion or
17 differences of attitude that drove you apart?
18 A. No. We simply did not happen to meet. The
19 situations of life in the wartime separated us. I
20 presume he had his own obligations and duties and he
21 did them the way he did them, and I had my own. There
22 was simply no time for this kind of informal meetings,
23 socialising, going out together, and things like that.
24 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much, I have no
25 more questions, Mr. President.
1JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Pavkovic?
2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. I have no more
3 questions.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: We don't have any questions.
5 Mr. Kocaj, thank you so much for giving evidence in
6 Court. You may now be released.
7 (The witness withdrew)
8 (The witness entered court)
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Would you
10 please make the solemn declaration? Good morning would
11 you please make the solemn declaration?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. I solemnly declare that I
13 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
14 the truth.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
16 seated. Mr. Pavkovic?
17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 WITNESS: MARKO BRKOVIC
19 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
20 Q. Good day, witness.
21 A. Good day to you.
22 Q. Would you please introduce yourself to the
23 Court, first?
24 A. I'm Marko Brkovic. I was born on the 23rd of
25 October, 1942, in the village of Has, the municipality
1of Novi Travnik, Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Q. Thank you. It would be of interest if you
3 told us about Has, your birthplace. What would that
4 mean if we wish to translate that?
5 A. The village of Has or Hus is a Muslim
6 settlement with a dual origin. Hus means "the biggest"
7 in Turkish. Has means "impure, filthy."
8 Q. Thank you for having enlightened us or,
9 sorry, at least myself. Well, tell me then,
10 Mr. Brkovic, could you please tell us which schools you
11 attended?
12 A. I attended the first four grades of
13 elementary school in my native village, and after that
14 I continued my education in Bugojno. Bugojno is about
15 100 kilometres away from my native village.
16 At that time, it was difficult to obtain an
17 education because this was the immediate post-war
18 period. After the Second World War, things were
19 difficult and my father bought a farm near Bugojno and
20 that's where I continued my schooling.
21 Q. Mr. Brkovic, after that did you attend
22 university and what did you study?
23 A. Yes. Yes, I completed high school in
24 Bugojno, and then I continued my university studies in
25 Sarajevo where I graduated from the academy of
1pedagogy.
2 Q. So this meant you went to a teachers'
3 college? Is that what it means, broadly speaking?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Tell me, Mr. Brkovic, when did you first get
6 a job and what was that job?
7 A. I did what I was trained to do, that is to
8 say, to teach elementary school. In 1964, starting on
9 the 1st of September, 1964, I found a job in Busovaca,
10 the municipality of Busovaca, because I had obtained a
11 scholarship from them earlier on.
12 Q. So you were involved in teaching. Were you
13 head teacher in one of those classes or perhaps did you
14 become principal of some school or what happened?
15 A. Yes. According to the law that was in force
16 at that time, schools are educational institutions,
17 that is to say, it was the duty of every teacher, in
18 addition to teaching his subjects, to work on the
19 education and upbringing of pupils. In order to do
20 that, he was supposed be the head-class teacher so he
21 would know the structure and forms of communicating
22 with children so as to help and facilitate their
23 development.
24 Q. So let us go back to those days, and if I ask
25 you if the name of Nada Santic means something to you,
1what would your answer be?
2 A. After I worked in Busovaca for three years, I
3 went to the area of Romanija, Han-Piejsak namely, and
4 then I spent a brief period there. Then I came to the
5 territory of the municipality of Vitez.
6 I taught in elementary school of Bila, four
7 kilometres out of the town of Vitez. That's where I
8 found a job as a teacher of mathematics and physics,
9 and I became a home-room teacher for an 8th grade
10 class. Since I had worked in a high school before
11 that, I knew what these 8th Graders were supposed to
12 face once they left elementary school and went to high
13 school, they were adolescents, and this was very
14 important. One of my pupils in this class was Nada
15 Santic as well.
16 Q. Did you pay visits to the parents of this
17 student of yours?
18 A. Not only the parents of that particular pupil
19 but of all other pupils. A teacher, an educator, is
20 duty-bound to familiarise himself with the structure,
21 education, background, et cetera, of all students and
22 their families, and all of this is highly relevant.
23 I visited the parents of Nada Santic, but
24 before that I visited other parents as well.
25 Q. How did you meet them?
1A. As home-room teacher, I was supposed to fill
2 out a form and certain details had to be entered there
3 that were sought by the school or, rather, the Ministry
4 of Education, because it is the Ministry of Education
5 that had prescribed that form.
6 When I met the Santic family, we would
7 usually pay group visits. I mean, a group of teachers,
8 a group of my colleagues would go, and that is when I
9 went to meet Mirko, the father, Lucija the mother, the
10 sister, and also the young boy Vlado whom I didn't know
11 him then but I got to know him in 5th Grade because I
12 came together with his home-room teacher Josip Silic at
13 the time.
14 Q. That is when you met the young Vlado. Are
15 you referring to Vlado Santicic, and you came here to
16 testify on his behalf today? You were asked by us to
17 do so?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us about something from that
20 period? What was the attitude of Vlado's parents, to
21 the best of your knowledge, towards him and the rest of
22 their children, the brothers and sisters?
23 A. Well, by way of comparison, as we visited
24 other parents in the immediate neighbourhood, as we
25 were filling out these forms we were supposed to get to
1know people well, that is to say, what kind of a home
2 they had, how well off they were, whether the school
3 was supposed to give them some kind of subsidy or
4 whether the school was supposed to provide
5 supplementary meals to the children and what kind of
6 education the parents had, et cetera.
7 Some pupils I had visited, because I was not
8 familiar with the environment at the time, did not have
9 a radio or a television or any conditions for work. In
10 the Santic family I found a completely different
11 situation. This was a civilised family where the
12 children had a study of their own. They had a TV set,
13 a radio, a library of their own. They had well-kept
14 books. They had plenty of space to study. They had
15 all amenities. So they had truly civilised conditions
16 for pursuing a regular education.
17 Q. On the basis of what you have just told us,
18 can we conclude that they were a rich family?
19 A. No, they were not a rich family. They were
20 modestly rich. Now, what do I mean by that? They were
21 focused on creating the right conditions for a proper
22 education for their children, and things were rather
23 difficult sometimes and conditions were modest. There
24 were people who were jobless. Sometimes people were
25 considered to be rich even if they owned a bicycle
1only. So you cannot really talk about wealth.
2 Q. Judging by what you have said, you're
3 obviously a person who can pass relevant judgement on
4 such relationships. If you recall these conversations
5 that you had with the parents, how did they see their
6 children? What are the kind of values that they wanted
7 to instil in them? What did they actually want their
8 children to become in the future?
9 A. We wrote down what we saw. These parents
10 lived for the future of their children. They had
11 sufficient conditions for providing a proper education
12 for the education of their children. No one drank, no
13 one smoked in that family, and nothing could have
14 affected the children in an adverse way. The parents
15 were very caring and loving, and they developed the
16 right kind of relationships with their children.
17 The oldest child was the one that was in
18 charge of the younger siblings, so to speak. That is
19 to say, their oldest child Nada acted as a teacher acts
20 in school, checking on her younger siblings and seeing
21 whether that they had done everything that they were
22 supposed to do for school.
23 The parents were highly interested in
24 everything, because they came to school regularly and
25 they wanted to find out how their children were doing,
1what kind of grades they had, what kind of company they
2 kept, whether they had any difficulties, whether they
3 were helping others as they were, et cetera.
4 Q. When Vlado grew up and when he went to
5 school, when he was a big boy and when he started
6 school, you were his teacher; right?
7 A. Yes. A year later, after I arrived there, I
8 taught Vlado physics. I was his teacher. I was not
9 his home-room teacher, but I was his physics teacher.
10 This was the school year of 1969/1970.
11 Q. How did Vlado Santic behave in school but
12 apart from actual classes in terms of extra-curricular
13 behaviour?
14 A. In my career I had quite a few students so
15 singling out students is not really the right thing to
16 do, but the Santic family was well liked by us because
17 of Nada who was one of my best students. She took part
18 in competitions in mathematics and physics. She
19 represented our school, and I simply expected quite a
20 few things from her brother. I expected him to be a
21 very good physicist too. He liked history, he liked
22 biology, but he would not take part in physics
23 competitions.
24 Well, as far as Vlado's attitude is
25 concerned, I think that he started school a bit too
1early. You can see that only when they start moving on
2 to senior grades and when they start studying more
3 difficult, more complex subjects. He was a very good
4 student. He was not super talented for physics though,
5 but he was super talented for something else.
6 Among his colleagues, among his friends, to
7 the best of my recollection, he was very well liked.
8 He liked his colleagues, they liked him. They watched
9 sports games together, because he was one of the very
10 few children to have a TV set at home, and we, the men,
11 would often comment on this.
12 He was friends with children from his
13 immediate neighbourhood because there were the
14 Savanovic, Varupa, Zolota families, et cetera. They
15 were always in the same group and there was never any
16 kind of excessive behaviour in that group. There were
17 no problems. There was nothing else that was
18 characteristic in a negative sense. I wish to point
19 this out because there were quite a few of those who
20 were poor. There were those who did not even have
21 enough food. Vlado was one who would help such
22 children. They would collect money. When somebody
23 needed a book and could not afford it, he would collect
24 money for such a child. Especially if somebody's
25 parents would die, then Vlado would be one of those who
1would collect money for wreaths and flowers, et
2 cetera.
3 Q. You said at that time Vlado was very well
4 liked by his peers. Was he prepared to help them?
5 A. I think that everything I mentioned shows
6 what a humane person he was, what a faithful and loyal
7 person he was and that other pupils liked him. I
8 noticed that especially when Vlado was leaving our
9 school, because everybody wanted, at all costs, to part
10 with him. And I think that this was a very sad day for
11 him when he left and when he went to Vitez, because his
12 father, having been an outstanding worker, had obtained
13 an apartment and he went to this other job and this
14 other apartment and Vlado left our school.
15 Q. Where did Vlado live at the time?
16 A. At the time when he left our school, he moved
17 into an urban environment, and he lived in my own
18 neighbourhood.
19 Q. Can you tell me something about Vlado as a
20 neighbour?
21 A. Since I knew the parents quite well and the
22 pupils, now our relationship grew into a neighbourly
23 relationship. We were neighbours who knew each other
24 well, and they were ready to acknowledge the elderly
25 and to be helpful.
1This is something I particularly liked.
2 Vlado always behaved to me as if he were still my
3 student. I consulted his colleagues, and I asked
4 whether Vlado still enjoyed the kind of authority like
5 the one he did while he was at our school.
6 Q. When we were preparing ourselves for this
7 conversation, and when we were recalling these
8 subjects, you told me that you would often monitor your
9 former pupils' progress further on, even after they
10 left your school. What could you say about Vlado
11 Santic in that respect?
12 A. Well, that is something that is
13 characteristic of psychology, just as a coach monitors
14 his players and a priest his parishioners. That is how
15 a teacher feels about his pupils. So a teacher's love
16 for his pupils continues and it grows into a different
17 relationship based on mutual respect. That is the kind
18 of relationship I had with Vlado Santic.
19 Q. Did you know that Vlado Santic chose to be a
20 policeman?
21 A. Yes. In the times that we were living in at
22 that time, in the '70s, there was an unemployment
23 crisis in our town. There were a large number of young
24 people who completed school and who could not find a
25 job. At that time, the Ministry of Interior had public
1competitions inviting young people to join their ranks
2 and offering them scholarships, and they would get
3 uniforms and a proper job after they completed their
4 education. So that was probably his motive. Before he
5 went to school, I talked about this both to Vlado and
6 his parents.
7 Q. Until Vlado left Vitez in 1977, were you in
8 touch with him afterwards?
9 A. With Vlado Santic? I was in constant contact
10 with him. We had a cooperation. When he completed the
11 police academy, he came as a young policeman. I was so
12 pleased. It was an honour for me to have one of my
13 former students in the police. I had one of my own, so
14 to speak, there. Vlado was the youngest policeman I
15 had seen in my life. He looked as if he were only 15
16 years old. Perhaps he was 18 or 19. I do not recall
17 having ever seen a younger policeman. Very soon he
18 started to work on the road as a traffic policeman. I
19 never heard Vlado, as a policeman, using swear words, I
20 never saw him smoking, I never saw him beating up other
21 people as was customary in the case of others.
22 I know that he was active in the auto motor
23 club. He also married when he was very young. I was
24 invited to his party, and he said that he would
25 continue his studies and that he would get a degree in
1law, which he did, and very quickly at that. He worked
2 on the issuing of IDs and other documents, and that was
3 very important. You see, when you come and when you
4 have lots of people waiting in a queue in front of you,
5 like 30 people or something, it's very important to
6 have one of your own, so that you don't have to wait,
7 and that's important.
8 We also organised in school various
9 competitions, and they had to do with traffic and the
10 knowledge of traffic signs, et cetera. Traffic
11 accidents can be very dangerous, and Vlado was the one
12 who brought traffic signs and distributed them in
13 schools, in public places, and he organised the school
14 competition, the municipal competition, the republican
15 competition, national, international, world
16 championship. So there were lots, really.
17 I also worked in the fire brigade with Vlado,
18 and he worked on the protection of human lives and
19 property as president of the fire brigade, and I, as
20 his former teacher, lectured on the danger of fires,
21 especially Poculica, Bukve, and many other places.
22 That was indispensable, and it turned out to be very
23 useful, and human lives were saved in the way.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for
25 Mr. Pavkovic, please.
1MR. PAVKOVIC:
2 Q. Mr. Brkovic, I would now like to channel your
3 attention to the events of 1990, 1991, the multi-party
4 elections. I would like to know how you saw Vlado
5 within the scope of those events.
6 A. In the '90s, Vlado was working in the
7 criminal police. I was the principal of the school at
8 that time, and to speak of that period means to speak
9 of the prevailing political situation at the time, and
10 he as a policeman and I as the principal of a school
11 had, so to say, subsidiary roles. I noticed Vlado at
12 rallies to which I was supposed to bring pupils. They
13 were supposed to carry flags, flowers, and so on. As
14 far as I can remember, Vlado did not take part in those
15 rallies as a citizen, but only professionally, as a
16 policeman, because these were rallies at which various
17 kinds of people with various views were present, and he
18 was there as a policeman, in a professional capacity,
19 trying to protect citizens, to maintain law and order,
20 and to do everything he had been doing previously as a
21 policeman.
22 Q. Could you tell me something about his
23 standpoints in relation to members of other ethnic
24 communities?
25 A. Vlado was born in a mixed environment. In
1his neighbourhood there were people who were orthodox
2 Serbs, who were Roma, Muslims, and others. I never
3 noticed or saw or felt that Vlado had a different
4 attitude toward them than he had toward those of his
5 own nationality.
6 Q. So in those years, perhaps I'm not expressing
7 myself properly, but it was a time of national
8 euphoria. Did Vlado succumb to that kind of euphoric
9 feelings?
10 A. No, I can say that he did not. I never saw
11 him drunk. I never saw him insulting or humiliating
12 others or demeaning the value of other people. He
13 always worked on creating a healthy environment. He
14 always acted professionally, and then he always came
15 back to his family.
16 In the former system, the central government
17 was then becoming very weak, so the police force had a
18 major job to do in maintaining law and order and
19 protecting citizens.
20 Q. When we talk about the Muslims and his
21 attitude toward Muslims, as you said, it was a mixed
22 environment in which he was born and grew up; did he
23 show any kind of intolerance, or even hatred, toward
24 that community?
25 A. I have no knowledge of that, and I am
1convinced, knowing him, that this was not so. I will
2 give you a few examples.
3 In 1991, when the central government was
4 weakened, many institutions came under attack. There
5 were burglaries, and this happened in my school. Vlado
6 was working in the criminal police. He was working on
7 finding these burglars and thieves. When I called the
8 police, Vlado came, and I wanted him to come. He never
9 asked me, "Was this done by a Croat, a Muslim, or a
10 Serb?" He always said, "It was a thief who did this.
11 Thieves have no religion and no nationality; they are
12 simply thieves." So Vlado was not a person who drew
13 distinctions among people on the basis of their ethnic
14 origin. He drew distinctions on the basis of whether
15 they were honest or whether they were thieves.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Brkovic. I will conclude my
17 examination with some brief questions about Vlado's
18 family. I assume you know something about this?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You know that Vlado is married; you know that
21 he has children?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell me what his attitude was toward
24 his family and his children?
25 A. In the educational system, there are three
1ways in which children are brought up: at home, by
2 society, and in the street. In this family, the
3 children were brought up at home. Just as Mirko
4 Santic, Vlado Santic's father, tried to raise his
5 children, Vlado followed his father's example and was a
6 very caring and loving father, doing his best to raise
7 his children.
8 I got to know his wife, Mrs. Slavica
9 Josipovic (sic). I knew her father, who was a forester
10 and who cooperated with our school in renewing the
11 woods. This was a modest family in which there were
12 never any insults or fights. This was a family which
13 knew how to distinguish good from evil and which knew
14 how to raise its children properly. I was very happy
15 to hear that Vlado had married someone from that
16 family. And when he had two sons, I got to know his
17 children too. I was very happy that he had children.
18 Q. You are talking about Slavica Josipovic as
19 Vlado's wife; Josipovic is her maiden name?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Brkovic, this is my last question. You
22 say that you got to know Vlado's children?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What can you say about them today?
25 A. Well, as the principal of the school, when
1the war ended, the schools organised competitions in
2 all subjects for the Vitez municipality. And when, as
3 the school principal, I came after the first term --
4 and this started late, because of the war -- when I
5 came to the exhibition of pupils' work, we had several
6 pupils who were very talented. One of them stood out
7 in drawing, in art, and when I looked at his name, I
8 saw that it was Sasa Santic, the son of Vlado Santic.
9 I approached him. He won the first prize as the
10 youngest talented artist, and we all congratulated him
11 warmly.
12 Then, at Easter, there was an exhibition
13 organised at the level of the Vitez municipality, and
14 he participated with his paintings and was highly
15 acclaimed. I was very happy about this, because he was
16 the son of one of my pupils. I went to his home to
17 congratulate him, and he presented me with several of
18 his paintings, which I still keep as souvenirs, as
19 mementoes.
20 I knew that at that time the financial
21 situation was very bad, so I did my best to make it
22 possible for him to go to the academy of fine arts, and
23 he was one of the youngest and most talented students.
24 When I asked him whether he could go to university, he
25 said, "Drawing is what relaxes me, but law is what
1refreshes me." He is studying at two faculties at the
2 university simultaneously, and he is the only student
3 from Vitez who is doing so. He is to be congratulated,
4 because he has given up all other forms of
5 entertainment and devoted himself exclusively to his
6 studies.
7 Q. And he has another son whom you mentioned?
8 A. Yes. This other son is also a very clever
9 child. He is also at university, and I think that
10 there are no problems as regards his studies. I don't
11 know what his financial situation is, but I hope that
12 he will succeed. As regards his talents, I think that
13 he is in love with books.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Brkovic. I have no further
15 questions.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I would like to
18 take this opportunity to tender into evidence the
19 following Defence exhibit. It is a certificate issued
20 to illustrate some of the facts mentioned. It is from
21 the police administration of Vitez, showing the address
22 where Vlado Santic lived, that he lived in Vitez for a
23 certain period of time.
24 I would also like to tender the police
25 certificate from Vitez showing that Vlado Santic has no
1criminal record.
2 I would also like to tender three entries
3 into the birth register relating to Vlado Santic's sons
4 and his marital status.
5 I would like to ask the usher to take this
6 set of documents for the Trial Chamber and for the
7 Prosecution.
8 THE REGISTRAR: The certificate of the police
9 of Vitez, with the Vladimir Santic address, will be
10 D13/6. A police certificate saying that Mr. Vladimir
11 is not under criminal investigation is D14/6. The
12 birth certificate and the marriage certificate will be
13 D15/6.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection?
15 MR. TERRIER: No objection, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: There are no objections, so
17 they are admitted into evidence.
18 Mr. Terrier?
19 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I shall be
20 brief.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
22 Q. Good afternoon. I'm Franck Terrier, and I
23 represent the Prosecution in this case. A moment ago
24 you described the young pupil, Vlado Santic. You knew
25 him at the time as a student. You told us that he was
1a very industrious, diligent student, and so on and so
2 forth. Would you also say that Vlado Santic had a very
3 strong personality, a very strong character, ever since
4 his childhood, or perhaps had some leadership
5 ambitions?
6 A. No. No, I wouldn't say so. He was not a
7 leader. He could not be a leader because he wasn't the
8 strongest, he wasn't the brightest, he wasn't the best
9 off. But others liked him, others respected him, and
10 he was humane. In school, a leader in school is
11 usually somebody who is the strongest, perhaps who has
12 the strongest personality, and of course, in senior
13 classes, the handsomest one. It depends in what way he
14 is a leader: Does he charm all the girls, or is he the
15 leader of a sports section, or anything like that.
16 But he was not a leader. He was very
17 attractive. He was a very merry fellow, very
18 attractive, he was humane, and he did not strike one as
19 a leader. He struck one as a modest man, to help, to
20 promote, to help those who have no means of livelihood,
21 who have nothing to write with, and so on and so
22 forth.
23 Q. Witness, another witness, the witness before
24 you, told us that Vlado Santic had big, important
25 professional ambitions, and he said that he was an
1ambitious police officer. Would you corroborate that
2 statement?
3 A. Vlado Santic was a very gifted person; there
4 is no dilemma about that. And he proved it because he
5 was one of the youngest policeman, as I have said, that
6 I have seen. However, one needs to bear in mind the
7 time and the space in which Vlado became a policeman.
8 At that time, there were working in the police people
9 who were under-educated, who had already been spent,
10 who had come from somewhere else. Vlado came from this
11 milieu where he was born, and that is where he appeared
12 as a policeman.
13 He was very ambitious, because immediately
14 after graduating from police school -- that is, passing
15 his trainee test -- he was immediately promoted to a
16 policeman in the street, and he became a traffic
17 warden. He regulated the traffic, and after that he
18 enrolled in the faculty and also graduated within the
19 deadline, with very high marks.
20 Q. You told us also about a ceremony to which
21 you took your children. The ceremony, if I understood
22 you properly, was of somewhat of a political nature.
23 Vlado Santic was present, you told us, in his capacity
24 as a police officer. What was that ceremony?
25 A. At that time, in 1991, 1992, many political
1rallies were organised. Those were the promotions of
2 individual parties which had been established, and the
3 school, as a public institution, was bound to add to
4 the importance of these rallies by their presence.
5 That is, we as a school were bound to bring the
6 children, when invited by individual parties, because
7 children could be amused there, there was
8 entertainment, and of course they would be offered some
9 meats or something.
10 Of course, I did not attend the ceremonies in
11 the same capacity as Vlado. Being principal of the
12 school, I was bound to organise the presence of our
13 pupils at those rallies, and Vlado was there to ensure
14 law and order. However, our encounters, whether
15 deliberate or perchance, were always cordial, and there
16 were quite a number of such meetings, of such rallies,
17 and most of them were of an entertaining nature.
18 Q. What political party are you referring to,
19 Witness?
20 A. Well, these were political parties from SDP,
21 HDZ, SDA, and many political parties which held their
22 publicity meetings. That was that kind of life then,
23 and these were meetings that were there.
24 Q. Are you telling us that in 1991, 1992,
25 representatives of those political parties asked you to
1bring all the children to attend these political
2 events?
3 A. Well, we did not have to take all children.
4 Some older children, because their school was four
5 kilometres away from the centre of town, and children
6 were also free. If the meetings were organised on
7 working days, the school was bound to organise the
8 attendance of children at those rallies at the
9 invitation of the official authority.
10 Q. That is as of what age were the children
11 requested to attend political rallies?
12 A. Those were senior grades of the elementary
13 school.
14 Q. Could you specify the age of those people in
15 elementary school grades?
16 A. Those are children over the age of 12.
17 Q. Could you tell us something about how often
18 did you meet with Vlado Santic during, shall we say,
19 between the time of elections in 1992 until 1993? Did
20 you meet often and how often?
21 A. Well, we did not meet often. There were
22 official -- that is, in 1992, in the school which I was
23 the principal, the United Nations forces came to our
24 school. In 1991, we met in passing because we lived
25 very near one another.
1In 1992, there was an incident, that is, the
2 International forces which came to my school, and I was
3 their host for two months, and they asked me to
4 introduce them to the political representatives of the
5 town and the police representatives, and I then
6 introduced Vlado to those representatives.
7 There was also a theft precisely at the time
8 they came because some things disappeared. Then Vlado
9 came with the police team for an intervention, and they
10 paid tribute to him because that object which had been
11 alienated was then returned within the shortest
12 possible time. So the policemen in the police
13 department that was represented, that the criminal
14 department, would drop by every now and then, ask
15 questions, and wanted to be helpful, wanted to be at
16 hand both for me and them, but me principally as their
17 host, until my departure, that is, until moved out of
18 the school.
19 Furthermore, at that time there were many
20 shortcomings. Some people turned up whom I did not
21 know. They were armed and I was fearing for my
22 pupils. Very often classes would be discontinued
23 because of some detonations or some -- and the school
24 was also exposed to the mountain of Vlasic, and on it
25 were deployed some units which often opened fire. So
1that during one school year the classes had to be
2 interrupted two or three times.
3 In order to protect the pupils, I went to the
4 police quite often to inquire whether I should
5 discontinue the classes, and I also often turned to
6 Vlado Santic, at the criminal department, and who told
7 me, "If need be, you will be notified. Rest assured.
8 Trust us. We shall do everything within our power to
9 assure the safety of those children." I really trusted
10 him, when Vlado told me that we did not need to be
11 afraid. I trusted him and I did not interrupt the
12 classes.
13 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Witness. I have no
14 further questions.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Pavkovic?
16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. I have no
17 additional questions, Mr. President. Thank you very
18 much.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: We don't have any questions
20 either.
21 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I don't know if
22 you are releasing the witness. I have to say
23 something. The counsel, rather, Defence has completed
24 the production of evidence. In conclusion, I would
25 like to turn to evidence -- certified statements of
1five individuals who gave their statements in
2 accordance with Rule 93.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: But meanwhile, I will tell
4 the witness that we are thankful to you, Mr. Brkovic,
5 for coming to the Hague to give evidence in Court. You
6 may now be released. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 (The witness withdrew)
9 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. Usher, will you please
10 take care of these documents? I'll hand them over to
11 the Chamber and for the Prosecution. These are the
12 statements by Muharem Pripoljac, Nesada Calic, Nada
13 Josipovic, Slavica Santic, and Miro Lazarevic. I
14 should like to introduce them all as one exhibit, one
15 Defence exhibit.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Did you mention,
17 Counsel Pavkovic, Rule 93?
18 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes. Yes, I did.
19 MR. TERRIER: I don't think so. I believe it
20 is 94.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: 94 ter. Affidavits. These
22 are affidavits.
23 MR. PAVKOVIC: No. No, no. I'm referring to
24 character statements of witnesses, and this is Rule --
25 JUDGE CASSESE: 94 ter. 94 ter, yes. These
1are affidavits. This is in compliance with our
2 request.
3 You don't have any objection?
4 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, no. I have five
5 days to object. No. No. I only have one comment. So
6 far documents were handed over either on the eve of the
7 testimony. Now Mr. Pavkovic is giving us documents at
8 the very last moment. We here have a series of
9 documents that is a series of affidavits. We naturally
10 have no time to even look at them. So I have no
11 objections but on the reservation.
12 MR. PAVKOVIC: I do apologise to my learned
13 friends. I did not want to deny you any information.
14 You will see these are statements which are strictly
15 related to the personality of Vlado Santic. They are
16 not dealing with absolutely -- to any event
17 absolutely.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but the Prosecutor will
19 have a few days before saying whether or not they
20 object to this particular document. It will be what,
21 D?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Witness statement of Muharem
23 Pripoljac will be D16/6. Nesada Calic, D17/6.
24 Statement by Nada Josipovic will be D18/6. The
25 statement by Slavica Santic will be D19/6. Miro
1Lazarevic's statement will be D20/6.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you. Yes,
3 Counsel Puliselic?
4 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, may I also
5 tender two statements relative to Dragan Papic's
6 character? They are by Drago Krizanovic and Drago
7 Pranjes. I believe that this will be consistent with
8 your decision of 11th of February, 1999, under
9 Rule 94 ter of the Rules.
10 We showed it to the Prosecution some 20 days
11 ago, I believe, and the Prosecutor has told us they
12 have no objection.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
14 MR. PULISELIC: Will the usher please help
15 me.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: You have no objection.
17 MR. TERRIER: No objections. No objections.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: So, therefore, these two
19 documents will be admitted into evidence.
20 THE REGISTRAR: The statement of Drago
21 Pranjes will be D21/ (sic) ... and the statement of
22 Mr. Nikola Krizanovic will be D30/5.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Now --
24 JUDGE CASSESE: No, D29 and D30/5. For the
25 record, it is D29/5 and D30/5.
1All right. Before we adjourn, let me ask --
2 yes, Counsel Susak?
3 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I
4 shall be very brief. Drago Josipovic's Defence, on the
5 17th of February, 1999, submitted a motion asking the
6 Prosecution to submit all the statements of the Defence
7 of Drago Josipovic for Mirsad Omserovic.
8 After that, the Chamber, on the 2nd of March,
9 1999, passed a decision ordering, among other things,
10 that the Prosecution should disclose the whole Annex 5
11 with the exception of the names of the investigators
12 and the first line, the first fragment, and two
13 sentences in that document.
14 In view that after that the Chamber decided
15 that other annexes, from 1 to 4, do not relate to
16 exculpatory evidence, whereas Annex 5 was said to be
17 exculpatory evidence. I believe that the Trial Chamber
18 should order the Prosecutor to submit to the Defence
19 Annex 5 without deleted places, that is, the witnesses
20 who testified here saying that it was not Mirsad
21 Omserovic or Mirsad Osmanac, as it is stated in all the
22 Prosecutor's papers and his notes and it would,
23 therefore, be very useful if Annex 5 were handed over
24 to the Defence without any pieces stricken out so we
25 could establish who that document is about, Mirsad
1Osmanac or Mirsad Omserovic or who else. To this date,
2 the Prosecutor has yet not disclosed about the person
3 in question, who they are talking about.
4 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. President, do you wish a
5 comment from us on this point? I think I can be of
6 some assistance to you, probably to my friend
7 Mr. Susak.
8 The bottom line is that there was every
9 suspicion on the part of Mr. Susak, which we looked
10 into as well, that the note made in the name of
11 Omserovic referred directly to Mirsad Osmancevic. The
12 brief facts that were recorded seemed on all fours with
13 the facts recorded in a note relating to Osmancevic. I
14 think we can probably take that as read. They are one
15 and the same person.
16 The Annex 5 to the motion we submitted under
17 Rule 67 or 66(C), my memory fails me at the moment,
18 Your Honours, was to disclose all forms of relevant
19 paperwork, and you were able to see all of it in the
20 naked raw and determine what was appropriate, if
21 anything, by way of redaction.
22 I am sure -- well, I can say from memory and
23 maybe Your Honours can too, that the Annexure 5 that
24 was revealed and disclosed in a slightly more expanded
25 form than the original notation by the Prosecution,
1disclosed everything that was relevant to the person
2 and anything redacted would in no way have assisted
3 Mr. Susak in tracing or contacting the said
4 Osmancevic.
5 After that there was an oral request in this
6 Chamber, and we said -- in fact, I said that although
7 our files had been exhaustively checked, and I
8 understood Your Honours to be satisfied that we'd done
9 everything, we had no further relevant information, we
10 made an inquiry of the Bosnian authorities, the results
11 of which were known only a brief time ago. It was at
12 some point in the course of last week. During that
13 time, we had investigators in the field, and I will
14 tell Your Honours and Mr. Susak that those
15 investigators requested Mr. Osmancevic be contacted by
16 those authorities. Would he speak to the Defence or
17 indeed would he speak to anybody? The response was in
18 the negative and, as a result, in fact, he wouldn't
19 even grant any kind of contact with our own people, let
20 alone would he grant contact either with the Defence.
21 It wasn't a partisan decision, it was a total decision
22 on his part. We're, therefore, faced with that
23 position.
24 Yesterday we did file a brief motion ex parte
25 to Your Honours to consider one particular further
1aspect. I won't mention that any further, but subject
2 to Your Honours' ruling, we're naturally concerned for
3 the protection of the -- of any potential victims or
4 witnesses involved in cases, and obviously it is a
5 matter we seek Your Honours' guidance at this time.
6 Other than that, we really have done, I think, all that
7 we can.
8 I can say that the evidence so for adduced in
9 respect of Mr. Osmancevic, his sheltering at the house
10 of Anto Papic and the use of this military vest for
11 safe travel to Ravno and back, these are not facts
12 which we have in contention, so we are not contesting
13 that evidence adduced by the Defence. So I hope that's
14 of some assistance to you.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Indeed it is correct
16 what the Prosecutor just said. Some time ago we did
17 take a look at Annex 5. Counsel Susak?
18 MR. SUSAK: I agree, Mr. President. You did
19 take a look at it. I'm talking about Annexes 1 to 4,
20 because they do not relate to exculpatory evidence.
21 However, I do not understand what the Prosecutor did.
22 He did not give us the name and surname of Mirsad
23 Osmancevic and his occupation, because many witnesses
24 said that he was a member of the BH army, and I don't
25 see really why we should have these blanks in this
1document and not to allow the Defence to see this
2 introductory part of the material concerned.
3 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, as I recall the
4 redactions and that, there were such things as the
5 title given to the document and, I believe, the name of
6 the investigator, and certainly parts relating, as I
7 recall, to profession and address were blank, not so
8 much redacted. There simply was no entry there.
9 Again, we don't contest that if it said this man is a
10 member of the BiH army. We don't contest that as a
11 matter of evidence.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I remember. We were
13 given all these documents. We did not find anything of
14 relevance for the Defence. So that's why we ruled that
15 they were not important or relevant to the Defence. As
16 I say, since the Prosecutor does not contest the facts
17 as adduced by Counsel Susak, we don't see why they
18 should be handed over to the Defence.
19 So I think as for Annex 5, again we are
20 satisfied that the Prosecutor has complied with the
21 duties incumbent upon the Prosecution, and that the
22 question raised by the Defence is not in dispute
23 because again the Prosecutor admits -- they agree that
24 this man, Osmancevic, was given safe passage to Ravno
25 and was given a military vest to go there. So the
1facts or not in dispute.
2 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, with your
3 permission, my learned friend the Prosecutor then
4 agrees with me that this is Mirsad Osmancevic in
5 Annex 5, that he is a Muslim by nationality and that
6 he's a member of the BH army.
7 MR. BLAXILL: I think I've already agreed
8 those points indeed, Your Honours, yes.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good. Very well. Thank you,
10 Counsel Susak.
11 So we may do some planning for next week.
12 Next week we will start with the court witness, the
13 anthropologist, and then I understand that you,
14 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, will call a witness, the one
15 we mentioned before.
16 What else? Shall we move then to the
17 accused? So probably then on Tuesday we will start
18 with, I assume, Zoran Kupreskic, then Mirjan, and then
19 Vlatko. All right. Any questions? Any problems?
20 So next week we will be sitting from 9.00 to
21 1.15. Yes. We will be sitting from 9.00 to 1.15
22 because Judge May is sitting in another case in the
23 afternoon.
24 MR. BLAXILL: Just one thing. I wonder if
25 Mr. Pavkovic had any news about Mr. Marin. We'd left
1the issue yesterday that he was going to try and find
2 out why he hadn't come. It might affect the running
3 order of next week, I don't know.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Counsel Pavkovic?
5 MR. PAVKOVIC: No, Mr. President, I do not
6 have any news. Yesterday I had to deal with all these
7 topical issues at hand, and later on, if I deem it
8 necessary, I'm going to call Mr. Marin and I'm going to
9 inform the court of this, and I believe that this is my
10 right. Thank you.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. So we will
12 know later on. You said that you will later on decide
13 whether you deem it necessary to call him if he's
14 prepared to come over to the Hague. You will decide.
15 It's for you to decide. If you decide for the
16 negative, namely not to call him as a witness, then I
17 wonder whether the Prosecution is keen to call him for
18 cross-examination. We just wanted to suggest that
19 there may be a problem, but we can come back to this
20 problem later on.
21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, yes, we should
22 like to cross-examine this witness. He's expected to
23 come to corroborate the Defence alibis. We simply
24 cannot accept the witness explanation that was given to
25 the Tribunal today.
1MR. PAVKOVIC: As you know, Slavko Marin is a
2 military man. I asked the military authorities for
3 their approval for him to come here. Before my
4 departure for The Hague, I did not receive any word
5 from them. They did not refuse my request, but they
6 did not grant it either. So I really have to look into
7 this matter. I don't know any more today than I did
8 yesterday. I'm going to do my best to inform the
9 Prosecutor and the Court, in time, if and when I find
10 something out, and if -- for us, the Defence, his
11 arrival would be of consequence and, of course, if the
12 Prosecutor believes it is of importance to him, well
13 and fine.
14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, if I may say so,
15 the ball is in Mr. Pavkovic's court, but another
16 question to which we did not receive any answer is
17 whether the witness has deposed. Perhaps the question
18 is premature. Perhaps we shall be asking it later on,
19 but the question is whether the absence of Slavko Marin
20 might affect the deposition of the accused in person.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic, have you
22 made up your mind about whether or not the accused,
23 your client, will give evidence in Court or does it
24 depend on this particular witness, Slavko Marin?
25 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, now that we
1have concluded our evidence, I'm going to look into the
2 situation with my client, and then we're going to agree
3 on what we're going to do both in relation to Slavko
4 Marin and in relation to his very own appearance, that
5 of the accused. I'm going to do as I told you a few
6 days ago.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Of course, I mean
8 if you come across any problem, we could be requested
9 to subpoena this particular witness so that the
10 military authorities will have to comply with our
11 request. We may subpoena him so that he has got to
12 come, if you consider that he is a crucial witness.
13 All right?
14 We may adjourn now until Monday at 9.00.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
16 at 1.00 p.m. to be reconvened on Monday,
17 the 12th day of July, 1999 at 9.00 a.m.
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