1 Thursday, 4 May 2000
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be
6 seated; good morning.
7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good
8 morning to the technicians. I hope that the
9 interpreters are here. I can hear them. Good morning,
10 court reporters, legal assistants; good morning,
11 counsel for the Prosecution. I can see that
12 Mr. Michael Keegan is not here today, but I think that
13 the counsel for the Defence are all present. Good
14 morning to the accused.
15 We will resume our hearing of the Kvocka and
16 others case, and I hope that we will finally begin.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We made a
19 ruling yesterday, but as regards the written request,
20 we have already taken measures and we still insist on
21 oral submission of motions. Everything that can be
22 dealt with orally, I think we should try and do our
23 best to proceed in that way.
24 Ms. Hollis, the witness is already here in
25 the courtroom.
1 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. The witness
2 we are calling, Your Honour, is Emir Beganovic.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
4 morning, Witness. Can you hear me?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The
7 interpreters are telling me that they cannot hear you.
8 Could you speak up a little bit? Can you hear me?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 I can hear you.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 The interpreters have heard you this time.
13 Could you please read the solemn declaration
14 that the usher will give you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
16 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
17 and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: EMIR BEGANOVIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 You may be seated now.
22 [The witness sits down]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
24 very much, Witness, for coming to the Tribunal. I have
25 to apologise for the inconvenience that has been caused
1 to you, but I hope that now we will really begin with
2 your testimony. You will first answer questions that
3 will be put to you by Ms. Hollis.
4 Ms. Hollis, you have the floor.
5 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Examined by Ms. Hollis:
7 Q. Would you please state your name.
8 A. Emir Beganovic.
9 Q. What is your date of birth?
10 A. 27 October 1955, and I was born in Prijedor.
11 Q. Are you known by any nicknames?
12 A. I have two nicknames: Braco and Began.
13 Q. What is your ethnicity?
14 A. I'm a Muslim by ethnicity, and I'm also
15 Muslim by faith.
16 Q. Sir, in 1992, were you married, and at that
17 time did you have children?
18 A. Yes, I was married and I had one son.
19 Q. Did you perform any military service?
20 A. Yes. I performed my military service in the
21 former JNA, in 1975 and 1976.
22 Q. What were your duties or what was your
23 speciality in the JNA?
24 A. I served with the force engineers. I was
25 with the Sappers.
1 Q. Sir, prior to 30 May 1992, what was your
3 A. I had my own business. I had a florist shop
4 with my wife.
5 Q. Did you have any other businesses at that
7 A. No.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness also mentioned
9 that he had a restaurant.
10 MS. HOLLIS:
11 Q. So you had a florist shop and you had a
12 restaurant business as well; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, I had cafes, restaurants; I had two
14 businesses of that kind. And the fourth business was
15 my florist shop, the one that was run by my wife.
16 Q. Where were these businesses located?
17 A. They were all located in the centre of the
19 Q. The centre of Prijedor.
20 A. Yes, in the centre of Prijedor.
21 Q. During the time that you lived in Prijedor,
22 where did you live?
23 A. Until 1990 I lived in the area of Stari Grad,
24 where I was born, and in 1990 I moved to the Esada
25 Midzica Street, where I built a flat on the top floor
1 of one of my catering businesses.
2 Q. This area that you moved to in 1990, what
3 area of Prijedor was that?
4 A. The area in question was the centre of the
5 town. It was the Esada Midzica Street, which ran
6 parallel to the Marsala Tita Street. Behind the old
7 Balkan Hotel, that's where the Esada Midzica Street was
9 Q. Sir, prior to the events that happened to
10 you, beginning in May of 1992, how would you describe
11 your family's financial situation?
12 A. I was a rather successful businessman. From
13 a very young age, I was involved in business together
14 with my father, and I was one of the wealthier men in
16 Q. What would have been the value of your assets
17 as of May of 1992?
18 A. According to my estimate, the damages that
19 were caused to me during the war would be somewhere
20 between 1.5 and 2 million German marks, if I take into
21 account all the property that I had, all the businesses
22 and the real estate.
23 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time we
24 would like to offer a map of the town of Prijedor as an
25 exhibit, and it would be Exhibit 3/76. We have
1 provided copies of this map to Defence counsel
2 yesterday, and we have additional copies for Your
3 Honours and for the Registry. And if I could ask that
4 that be put on the overhead. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. Beganovic, if you could take --
6 MS. HOLLIS: Could the ELMO be pulled closer
7 to the witness, please, so the witness may use it.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Beganovic, if you could take a moment to
10 orient yourself on the map, please.
11 Now, you mentioned that for a period of time
12 up until 1990 you had lived in an area you called Stari
13 Grad. Could you point to that area, please.
14 A. Yes. This is the area in question
16 Q. It appears to be an area that is surrounded
17 by a canal or river; is that correct?
18 A. This is the Sana River and this is a canal
19 which is called Berek [indicates]. This is a kind of
20 island which is called Stari Grad [indicates].
21 Q. Now, on the map that you have, Mr. Beganovic,
22 which is dated 1996, looking at the area you call Stari
23 Grad, it appears that there are approximately two
24 buildings in that area. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, prior to --
2 A. There was a summer garden and a catering
3 facility that was called Lovac. The rest was
4 completely destroyed.
5 Q. Now, as of 30 May of 1992, approximately how
6 many buildings were there in Stari Grad?
7 A. I think between 150 or 180, maybe 200
8 houses. Between 150 and 200.
9 Q. And what was the ethnicity of this area of
11 A. 100 per cent Muslim. There was only one Serb
12 who used to live in the area of Stari Grad. He didn't
13 own any property; he lived there as a tenant.
14 Q. Who did own property in that area?
15 A. Everything was privately owned.
16 Q. By what ethnic group?
17 A. All Muslims.
18 Q. Now, you indicated that there were houses
19 there. Were there also businesses located in that
21 A. Yes. In 1990, some business facilities were
22 built in one part of the park.
23 Q. Sir, if you know, what happened to all those
24 buildings that used to be in Stari Grad?
25 A. First of all, they were plundered and then
1 set on fire, and then bulldozers came and flattened the
3 Q. Now, you also mentioned that you lived and
4 had businesses in the area you called the central area
5 of Prijedor. Could you please show the Court what area
6 you are talking about that your home and your
7 businesses were located.
8 A. They were located in the centre of the town,
9 in this area here [indicates].
10 Q. So you're pointing to an area that is just,
11 as we're looking at the map, to the right of the Stari
12 Grad area; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And what was the ethnic composition of that
15 area of the town?
16 A. In that area of the town, the composition,
17 the ethnic composition was mixed. All ethnic groups
18 lived there.
19 Q. When you say "all ethnic groups", what ethnic
20 groups are you talking about?
21 A. Well, mostly Muslims, Serbs, and Croats. But
22 there were others as well.
23 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time the
24 Prosecutor offers into evidence Exhibit 3/76. And if
25 the bailiff could retrieve that from the witness,
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are there
3 any objections by the Defence? No? Very well, then.
4 The exhibit is admitted, Ms. Hollis. Thank you.
5 MS. HOLLIS:
6 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you have indicated that there
7 were a variety of ethnic groups that lived in the
8 Prijedor area. Do you recall when the elections were
9 held in Yugoslavia, in Bosnia?
10 A. I believe they were held in 1991.
11 Q. And within opstina Prijedor, what party won
12 the majority?
13 A. The SDA party.
14 Q. And that party was comprised predominantly of
15 what ethnic group?
16 A. Of Muslims.
17 Q. And what other ethnic groups -- what other
18 parties were there in the area at that time?
19 A. There was the SDA party, the SDS, the HDZ
20 [Realtime transcript omitted "HDZ"], and the reformists
21 that were led by Ante Markovic.
22 Q. Of the SDS party, what was the predominant
23 ethnic group, if any, of that party?
24 A. They were almost 100 per cent Serbs.
25 Q. I don't see it on the screen, but I believe
1 you indicated the HDZ party; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what was the predominant ethnic group of
4 that party?
5 A. Croats.
6 Q. You also mentioned the reformist party. What
7 was that party?
8 A. It was a party that was led by Ante
9 Markovic. He was the founder of the party and he was
10 in favour of improvement of economic situation,
11 economic policy in the country, and he had quite a few
12 followers in Prijedor. I was one of them.
13 Q. Was that reformist party affiliated with any
14 of these other parties?
15 A. No. No, it wasn't.
16 Q. How politically active were you?
17 A. I wasn't politically active at all, except
18 that Dr. Esad Sadikovic, Redo Marijanovic and myself,
19 in 1991, at the end of the summer, we established the
20 so-called League for Peace. The idea was to establish
21 a kind of balance between the various parties. We were
22 advocating peace. We wanted to attract people from all
23 ethnic groups. We wanted to show people that a war was
24 not necessary in Prijedor. We wanted to avoid the
25 war. We were fighting for peace. That was the only
1 option that was of any interest to us. But at the
2 beginning of 1992, the league stopped functioning.
3 Q. What were the kind of activities that the
4 league participated in to try to show people that
5 war -- that war was not necessary in Prijedor?
6 A. In the summer of 1991, we organised this
7 League for Peace, and at that time the majority of the
8 members of the league were people from the town area,
9 and they were full ethnic communities, Muslims, Serbs,
10 Croats. We decided to organise public concerts. They
11 were held in the town and the message we wanted to
12 convey was the message of peace. We always managed to
13 gather between 7.000, 8.000, sometimes even 10.000
14 people who would attend those concerts. So people were
15 in favour of peace. However, the political parties did
16 not like our activity, and very soon we did not have
17 any opportunities to work and we had to stop
19 At the end of March, or was it the beginning
20 of April, I don't remember, we stopped functioning. We
21 could no longer obtain permissions to organise
22 concerts; we couldn't have any location for that. So
23 our activities simply stopped.
24 Q. You say at the end of March or the beginning
25 of April. Of what year?
1 A. 1992.
2 Q. You indicated that you stopped because you
3 could no longer obtain permission to organise. Who was
4 denying you this permission to organise?
5 A. Mostly the SDS party because the SDS party
6 attempted to forcibly take power in Prijedor. We, from
7 the League for Peace, managed to gather a large number
8 of people. They went to the municipal building, to the
9 town hall, and we had peaceful demonstrations and we
10 managed somehow to postpone it for one month, for
11 example. But the SDS was gaining more power and they
12 were quite strong in Prijedor, so we no longer had any
13 opportunity to act. And this is how the activities of
14 the League for Peace stopped.
15 Q. Now, you testified that this League for Peace
16 was created to show people that there was no need for
17 war in Prijedor. Had you observed increasing tensions
18 between ethnic groups in Prijedor?
19 A. Yes, the tensions began to mount after the
20 breakout of the conflict in Croatia. The army, the
21 JNA, was predominantly Serb, and they went to Croatia
22 to fight there. But the Muslims rejected the callup to
23 go to Croatia, and when they would come back from the
24 front, from Croatia, they would walk around the town,
25 armed. There would be shooting incidents. Weapons
1 were being sold, including, for example, hand
2 grenades. And this is what caused the tensions to
3 mount at that time.
4 Q. You indicated when "they" would come back
5 from Croatia and "they" would walk around the town
6 armed. What individuals are you talking about? What
8 A. I'm referring to the Serb soldiers who went
9 to Croatia to fight in Croatian cities, at the fronts
10 in general.
11 Q. In addition to these Serb soldiers who had
12 weapons, did you yourself observe other individuals in
13 Prijedor being provided with weapons?
14 A. At that time I didn't observe that. I didn't
15 notice that anyone else possessed any weapons, except
16 for the Serb soldiers who went to war in Croatia.
17 Q. Now, you indicated that weapons were being
18 sold. To whom were these weapons being sold, to your
20 A. The weapons were being sold to everybody, to
21 all citizens. Whoever had any money could obtain,
22 could buy, weapons. An automatic rifle would cost up
23 to 2.000 German marks, for example, and hand grenades
24 were at the beginning between 20 and 30 German marks,
25 and at the end they would sell for 10 German marks, for
1 example. All those weapons belonged to the former
3 Q. In the Prijedor area during this time, when
4 these tensions were developing, you indicated that you
5 saw Serb soldiers walking around with weapons; there
6 were incidents where weapons were fired. Did you
7 observe any other military troops, equipment, or
8 weaponry being moved into the Prijedor area?
9 A. Yes. This took place every day. They would
10 go to Croatia every day; they would come back from
11 Croatia. People used to carry weapons around the
12 town. Nobody tried to prevent that. There were lots
13 of shooting incidents, lots of wounding incidents. It
14 was common knowledge amongst the citizens of Prijedor.
15 Q. Now, during the time period between February
16 and the end of April of 1992, did you begin to notice
17 any exodus of people leaving the town?
18 A. Yes, people were leaving the town in great
19 numbers. Every day buses would leave, and it was very
20 difficult at that time to obtain tickets. Mostly
21 Muslims and Croats were leaving the town; mostly women
22 and children. People went to Croatia. Some of them
23 stayed in Croatia and then later on they left for third
25 Q. Did any members of your family leave Prijedor
1 at that time?
2 A. Yes, my wife left the town with my son in
3 mid-April. She went to Croatia, to the area of
4 Istria. She was staying with her relatives in Labin.
5 And she remained there until September, and in
6 September she joined a convoy to the Netherlands.
7 Q. Now, sir, why did you have your family leave
8 the town of Prijedor at this time?
9 A. Simply because it was already evident that
10 the situation was unsafe, that something would happen.
11 We had all expected some sort of fighting, but that the
12 massacre would happen, no one could have imagined. All
13 of us who sent our families away were fortunate because
14 they escaped these terrible experiences.
15 Q. After you sent your family away, where did
16 you reside?
17 A. The next day I moved to Dr. Esad Sadikovic's
19 Q. You mentioned Dr. Sadikovic several times.
20 Who was he?
21 A. He was a doctor who had worked for the United
22 Nations, but more recently he was in Prijedor. He was
23 a specialist for nose, ear, and throat. He was one of
24 the most prestigious citizens of Prijedor who lived
25 before the war and during the war in the camp in order
1 to help others. He was widely beloved by members of
2 all ethnic groups. All of them respected him.
3 Q. What was his ethnic group?
4 A. He was a Bosnian, a Muslim.
5 Q. Now, why did you move to Dr. Sadikovic's
6 house after your family left?
7 A. He was related to my wife and one of my
8 closest friends in Prijedor. We were best friends and
9 we were very close, and I simply felt safer in his home
10 than to go on living alone, even though tensions by
11 then had already heightened. And I simply didn't feel
12 safe living alone.
13 Q. What did you fear would happen to you if you
14 lived alone?
15 A. I was afraid that at night someone might
16 throw a hand grenade at me or open fire at me, which
17 was a realistic prospect, because the Serbs who had
18 armed themselves started mistreating citizens and
19 taking revenge on them out of certain personal
20 reasons. If simply they didn't like someone, they took
21 their revenge on them. So people simply did not feel
23 Q. Sir, do you recall, on the 29th and 30th of
24 April, the Serb takeover of power in Prijedor?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And after that event, what changes did you
2 notice in the activities in the town of Prijedor?
3 A. They started out that same day. They hoisted
4 their flags on all the important buildings in Prijedor,
5 with the four S's on them. Then quite suddenly
6 checkpoints cropped up in town at all major crossroads,
7 in front of all important institutions, all over town,
8 so that citizens had to pass through those
9 checkpoints. They were mistreated, those who were
10 Muslims or Croats. The Serbs could pass by without
11 being stopped. So that the discomfort started the day
12 they took over. The electricity was cut, though it was
13 switched on and off occasionally. The media were taken
14 over as well; the Serbs used them for their own ends.
15 So that life changed overnight, within 24 hours.
16 People moved around town less and less, so that after
17 some 15 or 20 days, people stopped going out
19 Q. And did that apply to you as well? Did you
20 stop going out?
21 A. Yes, I did too. For the last ten days, I
22 closed my establishments and I saw that there was no
23 point in keeping them open. There were no customers;
24 there was no business. The town was deserted. So I
25 limited my movements to the street where
1 Dr. Sadikovic's house was. We didn't need to go out of
2 town anyway.
3 Q. When was the last time that you were actually
4 able to operate your businesses?
5 A. The end of April -- no. No, I'm sorry. The
6 end of May, around the 20th of May, I think, was when I
7 closed them.
8 Q. Prior to these tensions that had escalated in
9 the Prijedor area, the clientele of your businesses
10 were composed of what ethnic groups?
11 A. They were of all ethnic groups. They would
12 all come. However, as tensions escalated, the Serbs
13 stopped frequenting Muslim establishments, not only
14 mine but all Muslim cafes. They simply concentrated in
15 those cafes owned by members of the Serb ethnic group.
16 So that the divisions were evident in this area too, in
17 terms of the catering institutions. It was known which
18 were frequented by the Serbs, even though before the
19 war we all used to go to the same cafes. But after
20 this, there was some sort of a division.
21 Q. I'd like now to direct your attention to the
22 events of the 30th of May of 1992. In the morning of
23 the 30th of May of 1992, where were you?
24 A. I was in Dr. Esad Sadikovic's house.
25 Q. And was there anyone else in his house with
1 you at that time?
2 A. Yes. A friend of ours, a common friend, a
3 private caterer like me, Asif Kapetanovic, who was also
4 known in town as a successful businessman, he was ill.
5 He had kidney problems. And he was afraid to go to
6 hospital, so that he spent the last two or three days
7 at Dr. Sadikovic's house, who was giving him injections
8 as treatment for his kidneys, whereas I had already
9 been in that house for a month and a half.
10 Q. And Asif Kapetanovic, what was his ethnic
12 A. He was a Bosnian of Muslim faith.
13 Q. On the morning of the 30th of May, 1992, do
14 you recall being awakened by Asif Kapetanovic?
15 A. Yes. Yes, he woke me up. I was sleeping.
16 The previous night we sat together, until late. I had
17 a bit too much to drink, so I slept firmly. I didn't
18 hear the shooting. When he woke me up, I heard the
19 gunfire. I got up, got dressed, looked through the
20 window and saw that troops were moving around, wearing
21 various uniforms, police uniforms, camouflage uniforms,
22 olive-grey uniforms.
23 We switched on the radio and started
24 listening to the programme, and announcements were made
25 giving instructions to how the Muslims should behave;
1 that they should stay home, that they should be at
2 rest, that they shouldn't move around. And then later
3 on they said that all Muslims should hang out white
4 flags. Those who didn't have flags, white sheets, so
5 that the Muslim houses could be identified by these
6 white flags, which Esad and myself did. On both sides
7 of the house, we hung up a white sheet.
8 Q. If I can interrupt you for a moment, sir.
9 When you looked out to the town, you indicated that you
10 saw individuals in different kinds of uniforms moving
11 around. Did you, when you looked out, see any signs of
12 destruction to any areas of the town?
13 A. No, we didn't see any destruction. But when
14 we were hanging up these sheets, we climbed upstairs
15 and I could see Stari Grad from Dr. Esad's house, and I
16 saw that it was burning. All over Stari Grad houses
17 were burning. I could roughly spot by parents' home,
18 and I could see that there was a flame and smoke there
20 Q. And were your parents still in Stari Grad at
21 this time?
22 A. I thought my mother was in the house, but
23 later on it turned out that she was lucky enough not to
24 be in the house. She was staying with my sister in
25 another part of town.
1 Q. And Mr. Kapetanovic, did he observe any
2 destruction to any buildings that he owned or that his
3 family occupied?
4 A. Yes. After some time, maybe half an hour,
5 Asif saw that his cafe bar was burning, and above that
6 cafe was his family apartment. This was, from
7 Sadikovic's house, as the crow flies, some 100 metres.
8 And he saw that the flames were about 10 to 20 metres
9 high. The whole house was on fire. And he screamed,
10 "My mother's inside. She must be burning." I decided
11 to go with him. We reached the house; however, the
12 next-door neighbour told Asif that his mother had left
13 the house prior to the fire and that she was alive.
14 Q. Sir, as you moved from Dr. Sadikovic's house
15 so this area in the old town, what, if anything, did
16 you hear as you moved toward that area?
17 A. I didn't understand the question, I'm
19 Q. Yes. As you moved from Dr. Sadikovic's house
20 towards Asif Kapetanovic's shop, where his mother
21 lived, what, if any, sounds did you hear in the
23 A. The shooting was still going on, and a
24 soldier came up, or he was some 30 or 50 metres away
25 from us and he shouted "Stop". I turned around and saw
1 that he was carrying a rather large rifle, something
2 bigger than an automatic rifle. It could have been a
3 machine-gun. So I said to Asif, "I'm not going to wait
4 for him, I'm going to run." There was a hedge of the
5 house, I jumped over it and I heard two or three short
6 bursts of fire. I was lucky not to have been hit. I
7 went into the yard. I knew it was a Muslim house. I
8 knocked on the door and the door was opened and I went
10 Q. Now, how long did you remain at that house?
11 A. Maybe an hour, an hour and a half.
12 Q. And why did you leave?
13 A. The family where I went inside were listening
14 to the radio, and the instructions on the radio were
15 that the Muslims should come out with white ribbons
16 around their arms, that they should form a line and
17 head towards the centre of town, towards the high-rises
18 there. In Muharem Stojanovic's street, there were
19 three high-rises, and they still exist, and we were
20 instructed to congregate there. Some of the people
21 stayed there and another group was taken towards the
22 Balkan Hotel.
23 Q. Now, as you and these people moved toward
24 this area, were there any escorts that you had?
25 A. Yes, all the time. There were members of the
1 Serb police, the army, people in uniform, in camouflage
2 military uniform, and there were others wearing blue
3 police uniforms.
4 Q. And what weapons, if any, did these
5 individuals have?
6 A. All of them had weapons, and they were mostly
7 carrying automatic rifles, pistols, grenades attached
8 to their belts, and so on.
9 Q. As you moved toward this centre point that
10 you had been directed toward, did you see any dead
11 bodies as you went there?
12 A. Yes. As we were moving along the pavement,
13 next to a small open market, on the pavement I saw a
14 pile of some four or five bodies, one on top of the
15 other, thrown into a pile. I glanced across the
16 marketplace and I saw another two or three bodies
17 beneath the fruit and vegetable stalls. They were all
18 civilians. They had no military insignia on them or
19 uniforms or weapons. There were no weapons there
20 either. They were civilians.
21 Q. Were you able to recognise any of these
23 A. No. No, I was not able to recognise them
24 because they had probably been mutilated by machine-gun
25 fire, so I couldn't recognise anyone.
1 Q. When you reached this centre point, how many
2 people were at this central point?
3 A. There were perhaps about 2.000 people.
4 Q. Did you recognise any of these people?
5 A. Yes, I knew most of them. I saw my mother
6 there, sister, my brother-in-law, and all the other
7 citizens, most of whom I knew quite well.
8 Q. And what was the ethnic group of these people
9 that you recognised?
10 A. Most of them were Muslims, but there were
11 some Croats as well.
12 Q. What happened once you reached this central
14 A. Well, nothing, really. We saw there were
15 about ten buses from the city transport parked there.
16 They gave us orders for the men over 15 years of age to
17 go to one side, and children under 15 and women to go
18 to the other side, which we naturally did. We had to.
19 Q. Now, once you were separated into groups of
20 one group of men, one group of women and children, what
21 was done with the group of men?
22 A. We were loaded onto the buses, a column of
23 buses was formed, and the buses set off towards the SUP
24 building in Prijedor.
25 Q. On your bus, how many people were on your
2 A. There was a driver in uniform and one or two
3 escorts. I think two escorts.
4 Q. And how many people who had been arrested
5 were on your bus?
6 A. About 50.
7 Q. Now, you indicated that one or two people, as
8 escorts, were on your bus. What kind of uniforms did
9 they have?
10 A. Blue uniforms.
11 Q. And did you recognise what kind of uniforms
12 those were?
13 A. Police uniforms.
14 Q. Did you recognise either of those escorts?
15 A. In my bus, no, I didn't know them.
16 Q. Now, you indicated that once you got on the
17 buses, then you moved in the direction of the SUP.
18 Were you given any instructions as to how to conduct
19 yourselves on the bus?
20 A. They said we should bend down our heads, not
21 to look out the windows. The column of buses stopped
22 in front of the SUP. We stayed there for five or ten
23 minutes. They probably went inside to get
24 instructions, and then they came back, these escorts,
25 and the column started off again. We reached the JNA
1 Street and then Partizan Street, and then we went
2 directly to Tomasica.
3 Q. And what is Tomasica?
4 A. It's a village outside Prijedor, about 20
5 kilometres from Prijedor.
6 Q. And from Tomasica, where did you go?
7 A. We didn't reach Tomasica. Before we reached
8 Tomasica, we took a left turn. And afterwards, I
9 realised -- actually, I never used that road -- the
10 road led to Omarska.
11 Q. What time of the day did you arrive at
12 Omarska? Was it during the daytime? Was it at night?
13 A. It was getting dark by then.
14 Q. And at the time that your bus arrived at
15 Omarska, how many other buses, if any, also arrived?
16 A. I saw our column of some ten buses arriving.
17 Q. Now, when your bus arrived, where did it
19 A. It stopped near the so-called pista,
20 actually, next to the restaurant in Omarska.
21 Q. And what happened after your bus stopped
23 A. Well, they took some ten men at a time from
24 the bus, searched them, took all their valuables from
25 them, and told them to go into this room behind the
2 Q. Now, you say when you arrived there, "they
3 took ten men at a time and searched them." These
4 individuals who took the men off and searched them,
5 were they waiting there for you when your bus arrived?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. And what type of clothing were they wearing?
8 A. They were also in blue police uniforms, in
9 camouflage uniforms, in olive-grey uniforms. There
10 were all kinds. They were all of Serb ethnicity, the
11 army, the police.
12 Q. What kind of weapons, if any, did these
14 A. Mostly automatic rifles and pistols and hand
16 Q. And these individuals that took you off the
17 bus and searched you, did you later see any of these
18 individuals while you were detained in Omarska camp?
19 A. Yes, I did see most of them. I would see
20 them all the time.
21 Q. And these individuals that you saw, what were
22 their duties at Omarska camp?
23 A. Some were leaders and others were ordinary
25 Q. Now, when you yourself were taken off the
1 bus, what happened to you?
2 A. They told me to take out everything from my
3 pockets, and as I happened to be wearing a jean jacket,
4 which I hadn't worn for a long time previously, I put
5 my hand in a pocket and I took out a couple of
6 crackers. And he saw me put them down on a bench and
7 he said, "You can execute this one because he used
8 these to try and confuse our army." So I was taken
9 aside and I waited for them to take me to execute me.
10 Then somebody started pushing me by the
11 shoulders inside.
12 Q. If we could stop there for a moment. You
13 indicated that you took something from your pocket.
14 What was it that you took from your pocket?
15 A. Ordinary crackers, fire crackers that people
16 throw at New Year's, and I also had some papers in my
17 pocket and they happened to be there.
18 Q. And then you indicated that, "He saw me put
19 them down," meaning the fire crackers, and "he said you
20 can execute this one." Who is the "he" you're talking
22 A. Yes. He used to be a guard in the camp,
23 Pavlovic or Palic. He had a dark complexion and dark
24 hair and he had a lock of white hair. I think he spent
25 all of his time in the camp as a guard.
1 Q. During your detention at Omarska, did you
2 come to associate him with one particular group of
3 guards, one particular shift?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And which shift was that?
6 A. I think it was Krkan's shift.
7 Q. When you say "Krkan's shift", that's how that
8 shift was referred to in the camp?
9 A. Yes, Krkan's shift.
10 Q. You indicated that after this search and
11 after you were taken aside, that eventually you were
12 moved into a building. What building were you moved
14 A. I was taken to a building behind the
15 restaurant. The place was referred to as Mujo's room.
16 The soldier pushed me in but I didn't know who he was.
17 I didn't know where they were taking me. I thought I
18 would be killed. But this guy was wearing a blue
19 police uniform, and when I turned, I recognised him.
20 He was an active professional policeman in Prijedor for
21 a very long time. He told me to go there, and when I
22 entered the room, I saw approximately 600 to 700
23 people. Most of them were known to me. And he told
24 me, "Just go there and hide. Don't answer when they
25 call you. If you answer, you will be killed. If your
1 name is called out, just don't answer. Just pretend
2 you're not there. This is how much I can help you, and
3 this is all I can do for you. Just go there and hide
4 somewhere." And he turned around and left after that.
5 Q. Are you willing to tell the Court the name of
6 this man who gave you those instructions?
7 A. I couldn't do it now. I know him very well
8 by sight. He used to be on duty very often in the
9 centre of the town, in the street where I had my cafes
10 and my restaurant. And I would see him very often but
11 I can't remember his name at this moment.
12 Q. Now, you indicated that when you went into
13 this room you referred to as Mujo's room, that you
14 thought there were perhaps some 600 people in that
15 room. Did you recognise any of those people?
16 A. I knew most of them. My cousin was there,
17 for example. There were lots of people who were my
18 neighbours from the Stari Grad area. Lots of men from
19 Stari Grad were there. There were also people from the
20 area called Lukavica, and I knew all of those people.
21 Q. And your cousin who was there. What is your
22 cousin's name?
23 A. Mirsad Beganovic.
24 Q. Now, these people that you knew in this room,
25 what was their ethnicity?
1 A. Most of them were Muslims, but there were
2 some Croats as well.
3 Q. Now, how long did you remain in Mujo's room
4 after you were taken in there that night, that evening?
5 A. I only spent that night there. The place was
6 crowded; I think there were over 1.000 people there.
7 We could hardly breathe, and there was of course no
8 room for us to lie down. And in the following morning,
9 half of the people were taken to the pista and one half
10 remained in the room.
11 Q. And were you taken to the pista or did you
12 remain in the room?
13 A. I was taken to the pista.
14 Q. Now, how long were you held on the pista?
15 A. I remained there between 10 and 12 days, on
16 the pista.
17 Q. And from the pista, where were you held?
18 A. I was taken from the pista to the "white
19 house" first, where I was badly beaten up. And two
20 days later I was transferred to the room referred to as
21 "Petniska" which means room number 15.
22 Q. And that room 15 was in what building?
23 A. In the building called "hangar".
24 Q. And how long were you held in that room?
25 A. I stayed one month, perhaps a little less
1 than that, in that room.
2 Q. And then from room 15, where were you next
4 A. After that, I was taken for interrogation on
5 the upper floor of the restaurant building where
6 offices were, offices that were used for the
7 interrogation of detainees. And after that I was taken
8 back to the pista, and on the same day I was
9 transferred to Mujo's room.
10 Q. This is the same Mujo's room you referred to
11 earlier; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, was there any other location at the
14 Omarska camp that you were held prior to you being
15 taken from the camp?
16 A. There was a small garage there which was not
17 bigger than 20 square metres, I think. I spent two
18 nights and two days there. There were perhaps 160, 170
19 of us there, I don't remember, but the situation was
21 Q. Now, when was it that you were actually taken
22 from Omarska camp?
23 A. On the 6th of August, 1992.
24 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time I
25 would like to have the witness move to the model and
1 point to the various locations he has described for
2 you. To do that most effectively, I believe we will
3 need the assistance of the technical people to operate
4 this camera. Is it possible to have that assistance?
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
6 Ms. Hollis, the witness may approach the model, and
7 we'll did our best, as I see that Mr. Dubuisson is in
8 contact with the technical booth.
9 MS. HOLLIS: If the bailiff could assist the
10 witness with the microphone and the headset, please.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can see
12 that Mr. Tosic wishes to say something.
13 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your
14 Honour, for interrupting. There were quite a few
15 leading questions by the counsel for the Prosecution as
16 regards a number of certain dates. For example, the
17 30th of April, the 30th of May. There were also a few
18 questions if the witness had seen any corpses, instead
19 of asking him, for example, what was it that he saw.
20 There were a number of leading questions. I should
21 like Your Honours to have that in mind.
22 As regards the statement of the witness,
23 there are some discrepancies and that's why I believe
24 that it was a leading question. The witness should
25 have been asked a question like where he was on the
1 30th of April and the event itself should not have been
3 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, could I respond?
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that
5 Mr. Fila also wishes to intervene, so perhaps you can
6 respond after that.
7 Mr. Fila.
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I
9 should like to state for the record that the witness,
10 while approaching the model, cursed the accused, Mladjo
11 Radic. Everybody could hear that. We all heard him.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't curse
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we
15 could all hear that.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
17 can you respond to the objection raised by Mr. Tosic?
18 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Your Honour, the Prosecution submits that
20 there are instances where, in order to focus the
21 testimony and save time, you can indeed lead the
22 witness. You can refer them to a certain date. If the
23 Defence is saying that there is a dispute about when
24 the takeover of Prijedor occurred, that is one of the
25 facts that they have agreed to.
1 So my submission is that these were attempts
2 to focus the witness, to expedite the relevant
3 testimony. These are supposedly not facts that were in
4 dispute. And the issue about whether he saw dead
5 bodies, he could say yes or no, and then he went on to
6 describe them. We suggest that these were not unduly
7 leading questions. They were attempts to focus and
8 direct the testimony to relevant parts. If we were to
9 ask him what happened on that day, we'd sit here for
10 two hours and hear him describe everything. It was an
11 attempt to focus the testimony.
12 Regarding discrepancies in testimony and
13 prior statements, alleged discrepancies, that's a
14 matter for cross-examination. So we believe that the
15 questioning was appropriate. It was not unduly leading
16 and that the discrepancies are a matter to be addressed
17 in cross-examination.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I
19 think that Ms. Hollis is right. We will also be
20 mindful of the remark raised by the Defence. It is
21 true that we did not reach a ruling on judicial notice
22 yesterday, but we said that we take notice of a number
23 of facts which are agreed upon by both parties. We are
24 going to apply normal rules in this particular
25 testimony, but we are not forgetting that there is an
1 agreement and one has to bear that in mind. Otherwise,
2 we will never finish this case. You always have the
3 right to intervene, but it has to be a justified
4 intervention. We have to bear in mind that we agree
5 that certain dates are correct, are agreed upon, and
6 that is why I think we can proceed in a speedy
7 fashion. And it is not necessary to incorporate
8 everything in the examination-in-chief, but I didn't
9 want to interrupt.
10 We are trying here to have a good procedure,
11 to make it better. I thank you for your remark, for
12 your intervention. You always have the right to
13 intervene, but you should do it only if it is
14 absolutely necessary to do so and if it is useful.
15 You may continue.
16 As regards the conduct of the witness, I did
17 not notice that, and the witness should bear that in
18 mind, as he knows what he has said or done. But I
19 didn't hear anything. We have to be very careful about
20 that in the future.
21 Ms. Hollis, you may continue.
22 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. You have referred to the bus arriving at
24 Omarska and stopping by the building you referred to as
25 the restaurant building. Would you please point to
1 that building?
2 A. It was here [indicates]. This is the
3 restaurant and this is the entrance to the restaurant
4 [indicates]. This is the restaurant building
6 Q. And the entire building, is there a term by
7 which that building is referred to?
8 A. Here [indicates]?
9 Q. The building you were just pointing to.
10 A. The restaurant building. That's how we
11 referred to it.
12 Q. Now, you also mentioned an area called the
13 pista. Could you point out that area, please?
14 A. Yes. This is the area here [indicates],
15 located between the restaurant and the hangar, the
16 whole of this area here [indicates].
17 Q. You mentioned the hangar. You're referring
18 to the long building across from the restaurant as the
19 hangar building?
20 A. Yes, this building here [indicates].
21 Q. Now, you also mentioned a building you called
22 the "white house". Could you point to that building?
23 A. This is the building in question
25 JUDGE RIAD: We don't see anything on the
2 MS. HOLLIS: I'm afraid I can't respond to
3 that, Your Honour, because I don't know the technical.
4 I'm told that it was on the video. I don't --
5 JUDGE RIAD: Proceed.
6 MS. HOLLIS: Do you see it now, Your Honour?
7 Could they focus on the camp again with the camera,
8 please? I think perhaps, Your Honours, we're having
9 technical difficulties, but we will move along with
11 If the bailiff could please remove the roof
12 of the building called the restaurant building, the
13 restaurant building here. If you could move the roof
14 that's toward the back of the building. Yes. And we
15 are now looking at the first floor of the building with
16 the roof off.
17 Q. Mr. Beganovic, could you please point to the
18 room where you were interrogated?
19 A. I think it was in this room here [indicates]
21 Q. And B9 is the number that appears in that
22 room; is that correct?
23 A. I couldn't tell you that.
24 Q. The number that you just read, is that the
25 number that appears in that room?
1 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, this is the room in
2 question, B9 [indicates].
3 MS. HOLLIS: Now, if the first floor of that
4 building could be taken off, please.
5 Q. And if you could point to the room you have
6 referred to as Mujo's room.
7 A. This room here [indicates], A9.
8 Q. And that is the number that appears in that
9 room on the model; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. HOLLIS: Now, if the other roofs could be
12 taken off that building, please.
13 Q. Now, you have mentioned the restaurant part
14 of that building. Could you point to that?
15 A. Here [indicates], A22.
16 Q. Now, during your time at Omarska, did you
17 become familiar with a room that was referred to as the
18 "glass house"?
19 A. No, but I would pass by that room when we
20 went to eat.
21 Q. You were never in that room?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Can you point to where this room called the
24 "glass house" is on the model?
25 A. This is the room marked A14 [indicates].
1 Q. Now, you've also referred to being in the
2 "white house", being beaten there and also being held
3 there. Could you move to the "white house" and could
4 you show us first the room or rooms you were in in the
5 "white house" when you were beaten?
6 A. This is the building in question
7 [indicates]. I was in room A6, the second room on the
8 right side, looking from the entrance.
9 Q. So as you enter the building, the second room
10 on the right is the room to which you're referring; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You also indicated that you were held in the
14 "white house" for a short time. Could you point to
15 the room or rooms in which you were held?
16 A. I was held one night in room A3, the first
17 room on the left.
18 Q. Were you held in any other rooms in the
19 "white house"?
20 A. I also spent one night in the toilet, A5.
21 Q. And where is that room located as you enter
22 the "white house"?
23 A. It was straight ahead from the entrance, A5.
24 That was the toilet.
25 Q. Now, sir, you have also mentioned being held
1 in a room you called "room 15" in the hangar.
2 MS. HOLLIS: If the bailiff could take the
3 roof off the front part of the hangar, the part facing
4 the "white house", the long part facing the "white
5 house", if that could be taken off.
6 Q. And if the witness could please point to the
7 room you referred to as "room 15".
8 A. This is the room [indicates], B7, and it led
9 to room B8 and B23. You could access those two rooms
10 from that one.
11 Q. And as you went into the -- as you went into
12 the hangar building, did you -- where was that room in
13 relation to the stairs?
14 A. On the right side. We would enter here
15 [indicates], then we would climb up the stairs, and on
16 the right side was the door leading to that room.
17 Q. Thank you. If the witness could please
18 resume his seat.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
20 would this be a convenient time for a break?
21 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
23 we think that this witness and several other witnesses
24 which will follow is a very important witness for us.
25 We should like to have an effective use of this break,
1 and we would like to contact our client here in the
2 vicinity of the courtroom. We should kindly ask for
3 our client not to be led downstairs, and I think that
4 this will assist us in our work. Thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
6 Mr. Dubuisson, as regards the logistics, are any
7 difficulties in this regard?
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I will see
9 about it, Your Honour. I will see if there are any
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
12 then. If it is possible that this contact is allowed,
13 and when we come back, if there are any problems -- I
14 should like the witness to leave the courtroom before
15 us, in order to avoid any conflict. So the witness
16 will only be brought in after the Judges have entered
17 the courtroom.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry I
20 had to take this measure, but it is in order to avoid
21 any problems, any conflicts.
22 We will have a 20-minute break now. The
23 break will be a 30-minute break so that the requested
24 contact can be made. A 30-minute break.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.28 p.m.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be
4 [The witness entered court]
5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, as the witness
6 enters, the Prosecution feels it necessary to put on
7 the record that my colleague was observing the witness
8 as he moved to the model and did not observe any
9 indication of his lips moving to say something, nor
10 hear any derogatory comments. In light of the Defence
11 assertion, we wanted to put that on the record.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
13 Ms. Hollis. You may continue. But still, there is
14 tension that one can feel in the courtroom and we have
15 to contain it. So please continue, Ms. Hollis.
16 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you indicated that you spent
18 the first night in this room called Mujo's room and
19 that the next day you were taken to this pista area
20 that you have identified for the Court.
21 Now, this next day when you were taken to the
22 pista area, did you see any uniformed personnel in this
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did you see?
1 A. I saw soldiers in military uniform, policemen
2 in blue uniforms. They were moving around. There was
3 a vehicle next to the pista, a police car, a police
4 armoured vehicle, which had its barrels turned towards
6 Q. Now, this police armoured vehicle with its
7 barrels pointed toward you, did you come to associate
8 that vehicle with a certain group of people?
9 A. Yes. One could see that the Serb army
10 controlled that vehicle and that they were holding us
11 in their sights in case of any rebellion or something.
12 Q. Now, the people that you saw and associated
13 with this vehicle, were these people that you saw
14 throughout your detention in Omarska?
15 A. No. I saw them for the first 10 or 12 days,
16 and through contacts and stories, we could come to the
17 conclusion that they came from Banja Luka.
18 Q. Now, these individuals that you saw for the
19 first 10 to 12 days in Omarska, what was their conduct
20 toward detainees? What did you observe of their
21 conduct toward detainees?
22 A. Well, they treated us roughly. They wouldn't
23 let us go to the toilet; they wouldn't give us water;
24 they wouldn't give us food. For the first six days I
25 didn't get a single piece of bread. It was on the
1 sixth day that I got some food.
2 Q. This abuse that you talk about, what time of
3 the day or night did this abuse occur?
4 A. This would happen during the day and during
5 the night. Every minute, every second, they wouldn't
6 leave us alone. There was always someone who was being
7 physically mistreated. Psychologically, of course,
8 they were taking people up there for some sort of
9 interrogation, to the premises above the restaurant.
10 People would come back; in 99 per cent of the cases,
11 they were beaten up. This started straight away, the
12 very first days.
13 Q. Now, this group that you believed came from
14 Banja Luka, what, if anything, did you observe of the
15 interaction between this group and the regular camp
17 A. No. They contacted amongst themselves, as if
18 they all belonged to the same military unit, or the
19 police administration. They behaved in the same way,
20 the people from Banja Luka, as well as those from
21 Prijedor municipality. They cooperated; they
23 Q. Now, this unit you believed to be from Banja
24 Luka, when they were in the camp and they were engaging
25 in this abuse of detainees, did you ever observe anyone
1 intervene to stop this abuse?
2 A. No. No one prevented them.
3 Q. Did you ever observe anything that appeared
4 to you to indicate they were punished for this abuse?
5 A. No, never. No one was ever punished, nor
6 could we get the impression that they were being
7 contained in these efforts. On the contrary. They
8 were being praised when they physically mistreated the
10 Q. Now, the camp personnel, other than this unit
11 you believed to be from Banja Luka, did you know any of
12 these camp personnel as people that you had been
13 acquainted with or seen before the camp?
14 A. I knew a couple of those who were permanently
15 in the camp. I knew Kvocka; I knew Koka, the man known
16 as Koka, who came to the camp on a daily basis. He
17 used to sell chicken and that's why he got the came
18 Koka, which means a chicken. I knew him for many
19 years. Then I know some others who would come to the
20 camp occasionally, but they were not guards in the
22 Q. Now, the ones that came to the camp on a
23 daily basis, you mentioned Kvocka and Koka, and you
24 said that Koka was a man you had known for some time
25 previously. When you saw him in the camp, what did you
1 see him doing in the camp?
2 A. Koka?
3 Q. Koka.
4 A. Koka kept lists; he was constantly compiling
5 lists. He would come to the room known as number 15.
6 Down there in front of the hangar, he would line us up
7 and make these lists. For what purpose, I don't know.
8 Q. During what period of time in the camp did
9 you see Koka in Omarska?
10 A. I would see him while I was in number 15, so
11 that would mean mid-June until the beginning of July.
12 Q. When you saw him, what kind of clothing did
13 he wear?
14 A. Koka, I think, wore a blue uniform.
15 Q. What kind of weapons, if any, did you see him
17 A. I didn't see him with weapons.
18 Q. Now, you indicated that you knew him prior to
19 the camp. What was his ethnicity?
20 A. He was a Serb.
21 Q. You also mentioned that you knew Kvocka. Who
22 was Kvocka?
23 A. Kvocka was a policeman, and I knew him as an
24 employee of the SUP. I knew that for a while he was in
25 Omarska and in Prijedor. I knew his wife. His wife
1 lives some 100 metres from my house. She's roughly the
2 same generation as I. I knew his brothers-in-law, with
3 whom I grew up. I knew that he was their son-in-law.
4 My mother was friendly with his mother-in-law. She
5 would go and visit his apartment, and his
6 mother-in-law -- one year they went to the seaside
7 together, my mother, Kvocka, his wife, and his
9 Q. You indicated that you knew Kvocka's wife.
10 What was her father's last name?
11 A. Crnalic.
12 Q. Now, during what period of time did you see
13 Kvocka in the camp?
14 A. I would see him in the camp immediately as
15 soon as I came, the first few days, and then later --
16 then I didn't see him while I was in number 15, but
17 when I left number 15, I saw him again.
18 Q. Now, when you were on the pista, how often
19 would you see Kvocka in the camp?
20 A. I would see him non-stop, every day.
21 Q. And during what periods of the day or night
22 did you see him?
23 A. I would see him during the day, not at
24 night. He would enter, as far as I can remember, in a
25 190 Mercedes car. He would usually come to this corner
1 of the restaurant [indicates]. Then he would bring
2 cigarettes, food, drinks, and he would distribute it to
3 the guards more or less every day, and he carried --
4 Q. If I could just interrupt for a moment. You
5 pointed to an area of the restaurant. So that it's
6 clear on the record, what part of the building were you
7 pointing toward? The restaurant side that you
8 identified or --
9 A. The side where the restaurant is.
10 Q. And when you indicated he would come to this
11 area in a car, are you talking about him coming to the
12 area that is closest to the hangar or the area that is
13 farthest away from the hangar?
14 A. It would be the area on the corner of the
15 restaurant, that's where the car would usually be
16 parked, and he would take out things from the boot of
17 the car.
18 Q. When you're talking about the corner of the
19 restaurant, looking at the restaurant area, are you
20 talking about the corner of the building that is
21 closest to the hangar or the corner that is farthest
23 A. The way you are looking at it, the right-hand
24 corner of the restaurant.
25 Q. So the corner that is farthest away from the
2 A. Yes. Yes, further away from the hangar, the
3 area towards the "white house".
4 Q. Now, in addition to seeing Kvocka doing these
5 things, what else did you observe him do?
6 A. He was quite conspicuous. He wore gloves
7 with the fingers cut off. He carried a pump-action gun
8 all the time, known as Pumperica. And he would walk
9 around all the time, issue orders to them of some
10 sort. Simply he was their boss and they obeyed him.
11 Q. Now, in addition to walking around in the
12 camp, when, if ever, did you observe him go into any
13 buildings of the camp?
14 A. He would enter through the main entrance very
15 often. Then he would go upstairs to the offices or
16 downstairs. I don't know. He would go in and out
17 quite often, whenever he was in the camp. He was
18 constantly on the move.
19 Q. And when you say that he would enter through
20 the main entrance and go into this building, what
21 building are you referring to?
22 A. The building of the restaurant.
23 Q. Did you ever observe him go into any other
25 A. Well, I wasn't really interested at the
1 time. He moved around everywhere, all over the camp.
2 He was walking around all the time. He was on the
3 move, as I said.
4 Q. Now, while you were in the camp, Kvocka
5 actually provided you, or made it possible for you to
6 have a package; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And that package was from whom?
9 A. It was a package from my mother, who took the
10 parcel to his mother-in-law. He personally didn't
11 deliver it but the package reached me. True, all that
12 my mother had sent was not inside, but something was
13 inside, some underclothes and some food. This was
14 towards the end of July or the middle of July, around
16 Q. Now, in addition to this one occasion where
17 Kvocka made it possible for you to have a package, were
18 there any other occasions when he made it possible for
19 you to have a package?
20 A. No, I personally received a package that
21 once. As far as I know, my mother told me that she
22 sent -- she carried packages a couple of times. But I
23 received one only once.
24 Q. In addition to these two individuals you have
25 named as individuals you knew prior to coming to the
1 camp, during your detention in Omarska, did you come to
2 know and recognise any other camp personnel?
3 A. Yes. In due course we learned more or less
4 all the names of the guards, Paspalj, Krkan, Krle.
5 Then there was someone known as Joja. He had his gun
6 pointed at us above the restaurant when we were lying
7 on the pista. Soskan, Pirvan, and others. During our
8 detention, we came to learn their names.
9 Q. Now, in relation to the person referred to as
10 Krkan, is that a proper name or a nickname?
11 A. No, it's a nickname.
12 Q. And how did you come to know and recognise
13 that person with the nickname Krkan?
14 A. Simply all the detainees knew it. Everyone
15 knew who was Krkan and who was Paspalj. They addressed
16 each other by name like that, so there was no
17 difficulty in learning who was who.
18 Q. And how often would you see Krkan in the camp
19 while you were in Omarska?
20 A. While I was at the pista, I would see him
21 while he was on duty. Then while I was in number 15, I
22 couldn't -- I was immobile, so I didn't go out and I
23 couldn't see them. Then when I moved from 15 to Mujo's
24 room, occasionally when we would go out into the fresh
25 air, they would let us out occasionally, so he would
1 come by, I would see him. But I saw him most often
2 during the first 10- or 12-day period.
3 Q. And when you saw him, what was he doing?
4 A. Nothing. He was walking around there.
5 Sometimes he would stand over there, where the round
6 circular glass is, at the entrance [indicates]. He
7 would just pass by there. I didn't have any particular
8 contact with him.
9 Q. And you say that sometimes he would stand
10 where the circular glass is. What building are you
11 referring to there?
12 A. Yes. The building of the restaurant, the
13 entrance to the restaurant.
14 Q. When you saw Krkan, what weapons, if any, did
15 he have?
16 A. I think he carried an automatic rifle.
17 Q. Now, you indicated some other names as well.
18 For example, Paspalj. How did you come to know him?
19 A. He would come into Mujo's room frequently and
20 physically mistreat the detainees. He would select at
21 random. He was drunk all the time and he would come in
22 and shoot inside, he would beat people, he and Soskan,
23 and the others. They were there where the kombi is,
24 the entrance near Mujo's room, there used to be a kombi
25 van, and they used to eat and drink there. And then
1 when they felt like it, they would enter our room and
2 mistreat us, abuse us, physically, psychologically.
3 Q. Now, when this mistreatment occurred by
4 Paspalj and the person you referred to as Soskan, when,
5 if ever, did camp personnel intervene in this
7 A. No. No one ever intervened. They could do
8 what they wanted. Nobody cautioned them or reprimanded
9 them or punished them. Nothing.
10 Q. You also mentioned a person by the name of
11 Krle. Would that be a proper name or a nickname?
12 A. A nickname.
13 Q. And how often would you see this person in
14 Omarska camp?
15 A. I would see him too during the first period.
16 While I was in number 15, I didn't see him. And then
17 when I left number 15 and went to Mujo's room again,
18 during the last days of my detention, I was taken out,
19 I think, three times in the evening. I was
20 blackmailed; they wanted money from me. And he would
21 stand next to the entrance with this Brk, who was in
22 the camp. He would come in a green Mercedes. I think
23 he was a taxi driver in Omarska before the war. And I
24 was blackmailed. They wanted 100.000 German marks from
25 me to be transported by helicopter to Belgrade, or
1 50.000 for Prijedor.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
3 Witness, for interrupting you.
4 Excuse me, Ms. Hollis, but I think
5 Mr. Nikolic wishes to intervene.
6 Do you have any objection, Mr. Nikolic?
7 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
8 I'm just referring to what you said as the president,
9 that we should object if there is a good reason. I
10 think that the Defence counsel of the accused Kos has
11 good reason to do this now. I would like the
12 Prosecutor to limit herself to the examination as
13 regarding the circumstances that Witness Beganovic
14 would be asked about as indicated. I think that the
15 Prosecutor has expanded beyond what was stated in the
16 submission, beyond the scope of what was stated.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
18 Ms. Hollis.
19 MS. HOLLIS: I'm not sure I understand the
20 objection, Your Honour. I asked a question that, the
21 Prosecution submits, was relevant. The witness has
22 answered the question, and we submit that the
23 information being provided is relevant. I'm not aware
24 that there is a limitation on the scope of questioning
25 in direct, other than relevance, compared so some
1 limitation that may exist on cross-examination. So I
2 must confess I'm not quite clear of what the nature of
3 the objection is.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
5 Mr. Nikolic, can you explain better what is the grounds
6 for your objection? The questions are beyond the scope
7 of the indictment or what? What do you mean?
8 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'm holding the
9 Prosecution's submission of the 23rd of February this
10 year, compiled in accordance with Rule 65(C), and the
11 Prosecutor has given an attachment and the first
12 witness is Emir Beganovic on that list. In accordance
13 with Rule 65 ter (iv), under (C), the Prosecutor has
14 indicated which points in the indictment each witness
15 will be testifying about. That is how the Defence
16 understands it.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 Mr. Nikolic, do you feel that the question goes beyond
19 the indictment? It is the indictment that is important
21 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] This particular
22 question to the witness is beyond the scope of the
23 indictment. That is the position of the Defence.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
25 do you understand the objection now?
1 MS. HOLLIS: I do, Your Honour. And the
2 Prosecution's position is that it is not beyond the
3 scope of the indictment. The indictment talks about
4 conditions in the camp; it talks about abuse of all the
5 prisoners in the camp. This relates to that matter.
6 It relates to a person who has been identified as a
7 personnel within the camp. It is being related to you
8 by a witness who was in the camp and observed it, and
9 now is the subject of about what he is about to discuss
10 with you.
11 Also, Your Honours, part of the indictment is
12 that money was taken from people. He's talking about a
13 blackmail situation here. We believe that this
14 evidence is relevant to and within the scope of this
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
17 Mr. Nikolic, do you wish to respond?
18 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] When we made
19 our objection, we had in mind the statement disclosed
20 by the Prosecution about the testimony of
21 Mr. Beganovic, and on the basis of that statement, a
22 submission made in which the Prosecutor was very
23 specific, in accordance with Rule 65 ter. And that is
24 why we thought that the Prosecutor was going beyond the
25 scope. If that is not so, then this submission would
1 not have been necessary, then the witness could have
2 been called and questioned about all the circumstances
3 related to the camp. That is the understanding of the
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
6 Mr. Nikolic, what we are talking about now is still the
7 indictment. Rule 65 ter is a rule applying to
8 organisation, but the scope of the examination-in-chief
9 is always based on the indictment, and it is the
10 opinion of the Chamber that this question does not go
11 beyond the scope of the indictment. Therefore, the
12 Chamber overrules the objection and asks Ms. Hollis to
14 MS. HOLLIS:
15 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you were describing three
16 incidents where you were called out of Mujo's room, and
17 Krle and Brk were involved in those incidents, and you
18 indicated something about money. Could you repeat
19 again what happened on those incidents that you were
20 called out, those incidents involving Krle and Brk?
21 A. This took place, as I said, in the last --
22 during the last six or seven days of my stay in the
23 camp. One night my name was called out, they called
24 out my name and my surname, and I thought I would be
25 physically mistreated. However, when I got out, I saw
1 Brk, whom I had come to know very well in the camp. He
2 used to come to the camp every day. And they spoke to
3 me in a normal way. Krle was standing there as well,
4 together with one or two other guards. There were
5 three or four of them in total.
6 Before me Muharem Murselovic was taken out,
7 and when he was taken back I was called out. Brk
8 started talking to me. He told me he knew I had some
9 money, and if I wanted to remain alive, that I should
10 give them 100.000 German marks and that they would
11 transport me by helicopter to Belgrade. There was
12 another option. I was supposed to give them 50.000
13 German marks for me to be released in Prijedor, in
14 town. I told them I didn't have any money. I told
15 them that the money had burnt out, but they said they
16 knew I had some money somewhere, buried somewhere, and
17 that I could go back and dig it out. And they said
18 that they would come back on the next day and that we
19 would talk about it again.
20 I don't know whether they came back on the
21 following night or two nights after that, but it was
22 the same group of people. They were standing outside,
23 and the conversation ended like the first time.
24 On the third occasion, when Brk called me
25 out, I don't remember Krle being present there. We had
1 reached a kind of agreement. He was supposed to put me
2 in his car boot and he was supposed to take me to
3 Prijedor and let me try and find my money. However, at
4 that time there were already rumours that the camp
5 would be dissolved. So Brk never came back and that
6 was the end of the story.
7 Q. Did you ever provide any money to Brk or any
8 of the others?
9 A. No, not to Brk, but I did while I was at the
10 pista, during the first five or six days. On one
11 occasion they allowed me to go to the toilet, which was
12 next to the restaurant building. It was actually right
13 next to the entrance, on the left side of the
14 entrance. And a man followed me. He was from the
15 group of the people from Banja Luka who were manning
16 the personnel carrier. He was a bit taller than me,
17 perhaps my age -- a bit shorter than me, I'm sorry. He
18 pointed his rifle at me when I was in the toilet and he
19 told me to take out everything I had in my pockets.
20 There was about 1.200 or 1.300 German marks in my
21 pockets. This is what he took. I had some more money
22 but he thought that it was all. And he told me that if
23 I ever mentioned this to anyone that I would be
25 Q. Now, in these instances that Brk and Krle
1 took you out and Brk asked you for money, did Krle ever
2 intervene to stop this?
3 A. No, he didn't intervene. I had a feeling
4 that he was there with them, that he was doing the same
5 job, that he had a deal with them, that he was actually
6 with the group that had come to try and extort money
7 from me.
8 Q. Now, you mentioned that the name Krkan is a
9 nickname. Did you ever hear that nickname --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- referred to -- used referring to more than
12 one person in the camp?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. And with Krle, you've noticed -- you have
15 testified that that is a nickname as well. Did you
16 ever hear that nickname used toward more than one
17 person in the camp?
18 A. No. Only for him.
19 Q. Now, you indicated that interrogations began
20 in the camp very early on; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. They started -- I think it was a
22 Saturday when I arrived in the camp, on the 30th of
23 May. I know that they started on Monday, the
24 interrogations, because this cousin of mine, Danovic,
25 he was taken on Monday morning for interrogation. This
1 is how I know that the interrogations had started right
3 Q. Now, based on your observations, what group
4 of people were involved with these interrogations?
5 A. Mostly Serbian intellectuals, police
6 inspectors, the people who used to be police inspectors
7 before the war in the SUP, in Prijedor. They were the
8 ones who conducted the interrogations in most of the
10 Q. Again, based on your observations in the
11 camp, what difference in treatment of the detainees, if
12 any, did you observe between the time that the
13 interrogators were in camp and the time that they
14 weren't in camp?
15 A. Well, it was more or less the same. However,
16 while they were conducting interrogations, people were
17 beaten up in most of the cases. Ninety-nine per cent
18 of them would come back badly beaten up. And this took
19 place in every office. They had a kind of cube that we
20 were supposed to kneel on during the interrogation, and
21 people were being beaten up. They were trying to
22 extort some confessions, signatures. They were
23 supposed to sign a confession. And this always
24 involved beatings, no matter what you told them,
25 whether you participated or not in any political
1 activities, whether you had been involved in any
2 misconduct. But people were always beaten up, and they
3 would -- they had to sign statements under duress.
4 Q. Now, during the time that you were in Omarska
5 camp, the detainees in the camp, from your
6 observations, if you can estimate, how many people were
7 in the camp?
8 A. According to my estimate, there would have
9 been approximately 3.000 people.
10 Q. And these detainees in the camp, what was
11 their gender?
12 A. Sorry. I didn't understand your question.
13 Q. Yes. The detainees in the camp, what was
14 their gender? Men and women? Men or women?
15 A. Oh, the gender, you mean. Well, they were
16 men, most of them. There were about 30 or maybe 35
17 women. The rest were men. They were even children of
18 15 years of age, perhaps even younger, during the first
19 days of my stay in the camp. And there were also
20 elderly people over the age of 90, for example.
21 Q. Now, you indicated that you knew at least
22 some of the people in the camp. The people that you
23 knew in Omarska, what was their ethnicity?
24 A. Of the inmates or the guards?
25 Q. Of the detainees.
1 A. Most of them were Muslims, but there were
2 quite a few Croats as well.
3 Q. What type of clothing were these detainees
4 wearing while they were held in Omarska?
5 A. Some of them were wearing even pyjamas, and
6 some had normal clothes, jackets and so on. People
7 were in slippers or barefoot. Some were in their
8 pyjamas, as I say. But most of them were wearing
9 normal civilian clothes, like jeans. There were people
10 even in suits.
11 Q. Could you describe for the Court the general
12 conditions that existed in the camp while you were held
13 in Omarska.
14 A. The conditions were disastrous. It is very
15 hard to describe them. I don't have the right words to
16 describe them. It was horrible. People walked around
17 bleeding. Their wounds were festering. They had
18 litres of pus on their backs. They were badly beaten
19 up. Fifty per cent of the people had dysentery. The
20 hygiene was nonexistent. It was a disaster. It was
21 like in a toilet which was not functioning. The toilet
22 was not functioning. People were sleeping there.
23 People were eating there. I really don't have words to
24 describe it. You couldn't even call it a camp. It was
25 a disaster.
1 Q. Now, you've indicated that people walked
2 around with wounds that were festering, bleeding, and
3 had been beaten. How often did you observe this kind
4 of abuse on people?
5 A. You could see it everywhere, at every
6 corner. All of us were like that. You could hardly
7 find one single person without wounds. It would have
8 been a miracle. And we had all lost weight, between
9 20, 30 kilos. We were like skeletons. I was weighing
10 49 kilos when I arrived in Manjaca. My normal weight
11 is 75, 76 kilos.
12 Q. While you were in the camp, did you yourself
13 ever observe people being physically abused?
14 A. I observed it every day.
15 Q. And what type of abuse did you yourself
17 A. Both physical and psychological type of
18 abuse, but mostly it was physical abuse.
19 Q. And how soon after you arrived at the camp
20 did you begin to see this type of abuse?
21 A. During the first days.
22 Q. And how soon after you first arrived in the
23 camp did you begin to see these visible signs of this
24 physical abuse?
25 A. After the first several days of my stay in
1 the camp.
2 Q. Now, you mentioned that you yourself saw
3 detainees being physically abused. When, if ever, did
4 you see any camp personnel intervene and stop that
6 A. I never saw anyone preventing that. But
7 occasionally, from time to time, a guard would help an
8 individual, take him out of a certain room and
9 transferred him to another room. It was a kind of
10 help. But it was on an individual basis. But their
11 bosses didn't do anything to prevent them from
12 mistreating the inmates. It was uncommon in Omarska.
13 Q. During your detention in Omarska, how often,
14 if ever, did you hear sounds as of people in pain?
15 A. Every day. Every day, every hour, non-stop.
16 Q. What did you hear?
17 A. Screams, moans. While I was in Mujo's room,
18 for example, when the interrogations were taking place
19 upstairs, we had a feeling as if furniture was being
20 broken. We heard screams, moans, and sometimes it was
21 harder for us to listen to those screams than to be
22 personally exposed to beatings. People tried not to
23 hear that. It was -- it was beyond description.
24 Terrible noise.
25 Q. When you were on the pista, where did you
1 hear these sounds coming from?
2 A. The sounds would come from the restaurant
3 building, from the "white house" in most of the cases.
4 Q. And how loud were these sounds that you have
6 A. They were so loud that you could hear them in
7 every part of the camp: on the pista, at the entrance,
8 at the entrance to Mujo's room, also coming from the
9 "white house." They were so loud that you could hear
10 them in every part of the camp. You could even hear
11 them in room number 15, or coming from room number 15,
12 coming from the outside.
13 Q. Now, in relation to what you observed in the
14 camp, were you ever present in an area when
15 individuals, other detainees, were called out of that
17 A. I was both present and personally called
19 Q. In your presence, how often were people
20 called out?
21 A. Every day, all the time.
22 Q. When did this begin?
23 A. It began at the beginning of the month of
24 June. It started on Monday, on the second or third day
25 of my stay in the camp. People were called out from
1 the very beginning, and this went on until the end.
2 Q. Now, these people that were called out, were
3 any of them returned to the area where you were?
4 A. Sometimes they would return, badly beat up,
5 but many of them didn't come back. And in many cases
6 we don't know what happened to those people. We
7 haven't heard of them ever since and we don't know
8 where they are today.
9 Q. Now, regarding these people who would be
10 called out, and when they came back they had been
11 beaten up, when, if ever, did you observe these people
12 being given medical care for these injuries?
13 A. Never. No one ever received any medical
14 care. We never thought that we would be given medical
15 care. There was simply no one to turn to for medical
16 care, because everybody was involved in beatings.
17 Q. Now, among the camp detainees, were there any
19 A. Yes, there were doctors, Muslim doctors. But
20 the only one who dared offer some help was Dr. Esad
21 Sadikovic. He helped us as much as he could, either
22 with his advice, or sometimes, for example, he would
23 assist Serb soldiers who had been wounded at the front
24 or wounded in a shooting incident. So he would be
25 called to intervene and help them.
1 And on one or two occasions, he brought some
2 kind of powder and an injection with one single needle,
3 and he was making injections with that needle, and
4 sometimes he would give an injection to the person who
5 was in a critical state. But he always had to use the
6 same needle; he was unable to change it. And he would
7 bring some kind of powder from time to time.
8 As regards other doctors, there were few of
9 them in the camp, but they didn't dare help anyone.
10 Q. This Dr. Sadikovic, is this the same
11 Dr. Sadikovic you testified about earlier?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When was the last time you saw Dr. Sadikovic?
14 A. In the evening of the 5th of August he was
15 taken out, and as far as I know -- he had been with me
16 in Mujo's room all the time. We slept next to each
17 other. And as far as I remember, he was taken out
18 around 10.00 p.m. His name was called out and he left
19 the room through the main entrance, through the door.
20 And I didn't see anything, but I heard this from Fuad,
21 who was standing at the door, that he was outside
22 talking to Prcac for a few minutes. And after that,
23 all I know --
24 Q. Mr. Beganovic, if I can interrupt, please.
25 If I could ask you to restrict your testimony to what
1 you personally observed.
2 A. Well, all I know is that on the 5th of August
3 he was taken out, in the evening, from Mujo's room --
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. -- and that's all I know.
6 Q. Thank you. During the time that you were
7 held in Omarska camp, how often, if ever, did you hear
8 derogatory terms or derogatory words directed toward
9 the detainees?
10 A. Well, derogatory terms were a normal way of
11 communication. They never addressed us in a polite
12 manner. They always cursed at us. They called us
13 balijas, Turks, Alijas, mother-fuckers, and the like.
14 This was the normal type of behaviour towards us.
15 Q. And the word "balijas," what does that mean?
16 A. I don't know. It's some kind of derogatory
17 term for Muslims.
18 Q. At the times that these derogatory terms
19 would be directed towards detainees in the camp, did
20 you ever observe any camp personnel intervene to stop
22 A. No, never.
23 Q. You indicated in your earlier testimony that
24 you didn't receive any food until several days after
25 you arrived at the camp. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, that's correct. I got -- I received the
2 food only on the sixth day.
3 Q. Now, after the sixth day, the first day that
4 you got food, after that, how often were you fed?
5 A. After that they formed groups of people,
6 consisting of 30 people, and they gave us food once a
7 day. But during the first 15 or 20 days, not all of
8 the detainees could be fed, so sometimes we would eat
9 every other day or every three days. There wasn't
10 enough time. But later on things got a little better,
11 and we were given food once a day. But very often the
12 food was watery and of very poor quality, and we would
13 have been better off not eating it. We all suffered
14 from dysentery. It was probably because of the water.
15 It wasn't drinkable water, but we had to drink it, of
17 Q. You indicated that people would be taken in
18 or would be fed in groups of 30. When, if ever, did
19 you observe people being abused as they would go to and
20 back from their meals?
21 A. Not only did I observe, I was also beaten
22 up. In 90 per cent of the cases, when we went to eat,
23 we would be beaten, both on the way to the restaurant
24 and back. Very often while we were in the corridor,
25 having left the restaurant, they would pour water on
1 the floor and they would throw things on the floor so
2 people would trip down, they would slip, and that they
3 took the opportunity to beat us. And this happened
4 with the same -- with all groups, until they become
5 exhausted. Sometimes they would be very tired, so
6 people would pass unbeaten, they were lucky. But this
7 took place every day, every single day.
8 Q. And you say sometimes they would become
9 tired, so groups would pass without being beaten. Who
10 do you mean by "they," when you say "they would become
12 A. Well, the Serb guards.
13 Q. And where exactly did you eat your meals?
14 A. In the restaurant, in the main hall. We had
15 three minutes to run to the restaurant, to eat the food
16 and leave the restaurant. Each group had only three
17 minutes for that. And of course we would be beaten
18 during those three minutes. Some people would be
19 beaten only once with a club, but some were beaten as
20 many as ten times, for example, during that time.
21 Q. When, if ever, did you see camp personnel
22 intervene to stop these beatings?
23 A. No. No, they never intervened. Actually,
24 they ordered them to do it. Their bosses ordered them
1 Q. Now, you've indicated that you were held in
2 Mujo's room and there were perhaps 600 people in that
3 room, is that correct, on this first night that you
4 were in the room?
5 A. That night, according to my estimate, there
6 were more than 1.000 people in that room, and on the
7 next morning, because the situation was horrible, half
8 of the people were transferred to the pista, involving
9 myself, and the other half remained in that room. But
10 it was still crowded.
11 Q. Now, when you went back to Mujo's room later,
12 how many people were in that room?
13 A. There were about 600 or 700 people.
14 Q. What were the conditions like in that room
15 with all of those people in the room? How much space
16 did you have in that room to move about?
17 A. The space we had was not enough for all of us
18 to lie on our backs. We all had to lie on one side so
19 that everybody would have some room to lie down.
20 Q. While you were in room 15, in the hangar, how
21 many people were in that room?
22 A. I think between 400 and 450.
23 Q. And how much space did you have in that room
24 while you were there?
25 A. Well, the situation was more or less the same
1 as in Mujo's room.
2 Q. Now, you also indicated for a short period of
3 time you were held in a room you called the garage.
4 How many people were in that room?
5 A. In that room, when I was there, there were up
6 to 180 people, and literally we didn't have the
7 possibility -- we didn't have enough room to raise our
8 hand, raise our arms. Once you did that, you no longer
9 had any room left to put it down. I spent one or two
10 nights and two days there. We were trying to make as
11 much room for ourselves as possible, but it was
12 horrible. We stuck to each other. Luckily, the window
13 was broken so we could get some air. Otherwise, we
14 would have all suffocated.
15 At the beginning, there were over 200 people
16 in that room, when they brought people from Kozarac,
17 during the first days of the camp. There were even
18 dead people there. At one point, they opened fire
19 through the metal door in the garage, and as a result
20 of that some people died and were wounded.
21 Q. Were those people removed from the room after
22 they died and were wounded?
23 A. In due course, but not straight away.
24 Q. While you were --
25 A. Those who were wounded were not, but those
1 who were dead were carried out afterwards.
2 Q. While you were in this camp, from the 30th of
3 May until early August, what was the smell in this
5 A. Dreadful. There was a terrible stench in all
6 the premises, in all parts of the camp. We all had
7 lice. We were unshaven, hungry. We were like
8 skeletons. It was really horrific.
9 Q. Now, you've mentioned several times about
10 abuse that occurred to you while you were in the camp.
11 How often were you abused while you were in --
12 physically abused while you were in Omarska camp?
13 A. I was called out three times on an individual
14 basis, but I was frequently one of a group that was
15 physically mistreated. But three times I personally
16 was called out.
17 Q. And then you say that you were frequently
18 part of a group that was abused. When you were abused
19 as a part of this group, what was done to you?
20 A. Usually when we would go for meals, these
21 things would happen. Sometimes they would run into
22 Mujo's room and beat a couple of people and kick them,
23 and then they would go out, for no reason. We didn't
24 know why we had been beaten. They just felt like it.
25 They would come in and beat us up a little. If you
1 were close to the door, you would have a greater chance
2 of being hit, so we avoided being closer to the door,
3 precisely because of these random stormings by
5 Q. And when did this type of abuse of the group
6 begin? How long after you had been in the camp?
7 A. Very soon after we arrived, after five or six
8 days, these beatings started. Actually, at the
9 interrogation, the beatings started the same day, that
10 is, on Monday. They started to force people to confess
11 through physical force.
12 Q. Now, you've talked about three separate
13 occasions where you were called out, you were singled
14 out to be called out, and I'd like to ask you some
15 questions about those occasions.
16 Now, on the first occasion that that
17 occurred, when did that happen? How long had you been
18 in the camp?
19 A. Maybe 10 or 11 days.
20 Q. Was this while you were still being held on
21 the pista?
22 A. Yes, we were at the pista, but I think it
23 started raining, so we entered the restaurant itself.
24 They took us inside, and then a man came in olive-grey
25 uniform. He had a white military police belt, a
1 truncheon and a pistol. He called me out by first and
2 last name. I hadn't known him from before. I later
3 learnt that his name was Dragan. I learned this from
4 Nedjo, the owner of the Europa Restaurant in Omarska.
5 He was his nephew, actually.
6 Q. Did you recognise this Dragan as a regular
7 guard in the camp?
8 A. No. No. He came from the outside. He
9 entered privately, as a private individual.
10 Q. What happened, then, after he called you
12 A. He took me out. I thought he was taking me
13 for interrogation. However, he took me outside this
14 door of the restaurant. And then I saw Janjic, Nikica
15 Janjic, a man I had known from before in Prijedor. I
16 had a conflict with him a year and a half before I
17 reached the camp. And I stopped, and he said, "You see
18 how sometimes have changed? I'm going to slit your
19 throat tonight."
20 Q. Who said that?
21 A. Nikica Janjic.
22 Q. Where were you when he told you this? What
23 area of the camp were you?
24 A. I was -- when he said that to me, I was at
25 the doorway, at the main door of the restaurant.
1 Q. Were you inside the restaurant or outside?
2 A. Just in front of the entrance, maybe a metre
3 or two away from the building.
4 Q. Now, after he told you he was going to "slit
5 your throat tonight," what happened then?
6 A. Then Dragan said, "Go back. We'll come to
7 pick you up in half an hour." So I went back inside,
8 into the restaurant. I said goodbye to my friends and
9 acquaintances. I told them who had come and what he
10 had said. And I believed that he would kill me,
11 actually that he would slaughter me.
12 Q. What happened then?
13 A. What happened was that they came half an hour
14 later. Again Dragan came inside; he called my name. I
15 went outside, and as I was going out, I saw (redacted)
16 (redacted) following me. And at that very moment as I
17 came out, Dragan, as far as I can remember, started
18 hitting me with a stick on the head and the neck, and
19 he said that we should go to the "white house".
20 Q. Now, you mentioned --
21 A. And then (redacted) came running after me.
22 Q. If we could stop there for just a moment.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis.
24 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me
1 for interrupting you for a moment, but I should like to
2 say two things. First, you have been examining this
3 witness for more or less two hours. You announced that
4 it would take two hours. Perhaps you could link up
5 your questions a little. We plan to make a break at a
6 quarter to one.
7 And I take advantage of this interruption to
8 say something else. The witness spoke at length about
9 nicknames, Krkan, Krle, Brk, and others. Perhaps we
10 should find out from the witness the proper names,
11 because as you know, this is a public hearing and the
12 public may not know the link between the nickname and
13 the proper names. I'm sure you will be able to do
14 this, as I have asked you to. Thank you.
15 MS. HOLLIS: I will certainly ask that of the
16 witness, Your Honour.
17 Q. You mentioned seeing a person you called
18 (redacted). Who was he?
19 A. He was a showman, and a poet, and a
20 well-known figure in town.
21 Q. And had you known him prior to coming to the
23 A. Yes. I have known him all my life.
24 Q. And what is his ethnicity?
25 A. Muslim.
1 Q. Now, you indicated that you were taken to the
2 "white house", and as you were taken there, you were
3 being beaten. What happened when you arrived at the
4 "white house"?
5 A. When we arrived at the "white house", I was
6 put into the second room to the right. Dragan followed
7 me and Nikica Janjic, (redacted),
8 and Asif Kapetanovic joined us. The two of them were
9 in the second room to the left. They physically
10 mistreated me, that is, Dragan and Nikica Janjic,
11 whereas the other two were mistreated, as I saw later,
12 that Zigic was there, Dusko Knezovic, known as Duca,
13 and Saponja, Slavko Saponja's son. I think his name is
14 Dragan. He's a handball player from Prijedor. We used
15 to be friends. Saponja would occasionally come into
16 this room on the right-hand side to join in on the
17 physical mistreatment against me.
18 When it stopped, we went out of the "white
19 house". Zigic told us to bend down and to lap water
20 like dogs, which we all did. And then afterwards they
21 said that we should head towards the restaurant.
22 At that moment, these three went on and
23 Dragan took me back into the "white house" and hit me a
24 couple of more times and shoved me into the first room
25 to the left.
1 Q. Now, you have indicated that Zigic, Dusko
2 Knezovic and Saponja also were involved in this abuse.
3 How did you know Zigic?
4 A. I recognised Zigic because -- I didn't know
5 him well before the war, but I came to know him well
6 when, some 15 days before the camps were established,
7 he mistreated (redacted) and fired shots round his
8 feet. I was some 10 or 15 metres away watching him.
9 That is when I learnt his identity. And there were
10 rumours already in town that he was going around
11 mistreating people. They had a van which they drove
12 around in and mistreated citizens from.
13 Q. Now, regarding Dusko Knezovic, how did you
14 know him?
15 A. I heard in the camp his name, so I don't know
16 him from before the war.
17 Q. And you have indicated that Saponja was a
18 handball player. How did you know him?
19 A. Yes. I know him more or less from birth.
20 He's a little younger than me. Our parents were
21 friends, house friends, and his parents' wedding took
22 place in my family home because he and my father were
23 friends. They didn't have very good accommodation when
24 they moved to Prijedor, so my father prepared the
25 wedding in my house, in our house, so that we know each
1 other all our lives. We used to meet and socialise.
2 Q. What was your physical condition after this
3 beating you received in the "white house"?
4 A. My physical condition was such that a couple
5 of hours later, I really started feeling the pain. I
6 simply couldn't move. My head was all swollen. It was
7 black and blue, covered in blood. My legs were beaten
8 up, my back. I had received at least a couple of
9 hundred blows on my neck and head. So that when they
10 shoved me into this first room to the left, where
11 apparently the boys who had attacked Prijedor were
12 detained, there were about ten of them, and they were
13 in the same condition as I was, they couldn't move.
14 And then the guard came later on, it was
15 nighttime, he switched on his lamp and he said,
16 "Slavko, you mother-fucker, there are black people in
17 your group." I saw that he was referring to me. And
18 if he did refer to me, I was not black. This was a
19 private settling of accounts. I have nothing to do
20 with these guys. I don't belong to their group.
21 Then he came round and whispered to me,
22 "Surely, how could they do such a thing to someone for
23 nothing, for no reason?" So I saw that he was
24 sincere. I told him who I was, and later on I asked
25 him whether he could take me back to the pista because
1 I belonged to that group, and he said he would try but
2 that he couldn't promise anything.
3 And then he did come in the morning. He took
4 me out and took me to the hangar, to wash up a little,
5 and then he took me back to the pista. And at the
6 pista, none of my friends or relatives could recognise
7 me. My head was swollen like this [indicates], and I
8 was black, as black as this ELMO here.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned that this room that you
10 were thrown into, this room on the left, that there
11 were several other men in that room, and you also
12 mentioned that the guard looking into the room said
13 something to a person called Slavko. Who is this
14 Slavko that you testified about?
15 A. Slavko is a friend of mine from early
16 childhood. We went to elementary school together. He
17 was a private entrepreneur. We would socialise often.
18 He was a Croat by ethnicity. The whole town knew him.
19 He was charged with having led the attack on Prijedor,
20 if ever there was one. Where he was captured, I don't
21 know. He had come a couple of days before I entered
22 the "white house", this room where he was in. He was
23 walking, he was on his feet. I saw him when he arrived
24 that day. And when I found him in this room, he didn't
25 know what he was saying. He was dazed, he
1 was hallucinating. One expected him to pass away at
2 any moment.
3 Q. And did you notice any physical bruising or
4 other injuries on him?
5 A. There were ten or so of them inside. All of
6 them had clearly been beaten up, and they could hardly
7 walk because they couldn't move even in a lying
9 Q. What was Slavko's last name?
10 A. Slavko Ecimovic, known as Ecim.
11 Q. Now, during this first incident, during the
12 beatings that you described in this first incident, did
13 any camp personnel intervene to stop these beatings?
14 A. No, no one ever.
15 Q. Now, you indicated there were three separate
16 times you were called out for beatings. The second
17 time you were called out, how soon was that after the
18 first time?
19 A. Two days later.
20 Q. And at the time you were called out for this
21 beating, where were you being held?
22 A. At that time, we had left number 15 and we
23 were on the grass next to the "white house". We were
24 sitting there, and this Koka was making some sort of a
25 list of the detainees in number 15, taking down their
1 names and nicknames. Why they needed the list, I don't
2 know. I was in that group just then, the group from
3 number 15.
4 Q. Now, as you were in this group by the "white
5 house" and Koka was taking down these names, who, if
6 any, of the camp personnel did you see?
7 A. Yes. I saw, next to the "white house", a
8 guard with the nickname Ckalja near the entrance, and
9 at the other corner, Kvocka was standing. He was the
10 leader, commander.
11 Q. And when you saw Kvocka there, what was he
13 A. Nothing. He was just standing there. And
14 when I noticed Kvocka, I also saw Nikica Janjic coming
15 towards the "white house" and approaching Kvocka.
16 Q. Now, is this the same Nikica Janjic you have
17 testified about previously?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what did you observe then?
20 A. I observed them talking and that they were
21 exchanging something. Whether it was money or paper, I
22 cannot tell for sure, but it wasn't an object. It was
23 something like a piece of paper that they were
24 exchanging or money.
25 Q. And when you say that you saw them talking
1 and they were exchanging something, to whom are you
3 A. I'm referring to Kvocka, the commander, and
4 Nikica Janjic.
5 Q. Now, what happened after that?
6 A. Then Nikica headed towards the group where I
7 was, and he said, "Beganovic, come on, get up." I got
8 up and I approached the guard nicknamed Ckalja, and I
9 said, "I don't want to go to the 'white house'. Look
10 what he did to me two days ago, and he has threatened
11 to slaughter me. He wants to kill me, and I'm not
12 going inside." And Ckalja said that he guaranteed that
13 he would not physically mistreat me, that I should just
14 go inside for a talk. So what could I do? I went in.
15 As soon as I got in, this same Nikica Janjic
16 started hitting me. Ckalja didn't follow us inside; he
17 stayed outside probably. And then another small
18 soldier, short, he was short with long hair and a
19 rather oversized coat on him, and he was standing in
20 the doorway with an automatic rifle, I suppose so that
21 I shouldn't run out. And Nikica immediately started
22 hitting me with the handle of his pistol -- it was a
23 Colt, I remember -- on the head, so that my whole head
24 was beaten up. I received a large number of blows, and
25 my skull cracked in a number of places, and then he
1 kicked me as well. And then he suddenly stopped. I
2 said to him, it would be better for him to take that
3 pistol and kill me or to leave me alone, why doesn't he
4 choose one of the two. And he said that he had
5 intended to kill me but that he had changed his mind
6 and that he wouldn't kill me. Then I said, "Well,
7 leave me alone, then, if you're not going to kill me.
8 Don't come to the camp anymore to seek your revenge."
9 I said that I didn't take it against him, let things
10 end there, and after the war ended, there would be no
11 problems between us, I said, when this situation blows
12 over. He said, "You see what Kvocka gave me and where
13 you plan to go." And he took out a piece of paper that
14 said, "Emir Beganovic, kop 2." He took this paper back
15 and put it in his pocket, but he said, "My mother has
16 sworn me not to kill you, and that is why I've changed
17 my mind."
18 Then I asked him to give me some water, and
19 he sent this soldier to bring a can of water. He did.
20 I washed up. He gave me a cigarette to light. We
21 stayed on and talked a little while. And then I asked
22 him for a couple more cigarettes for later. He gave
23 them to me. And on the way out, we shook hands and
24 said goodbye. Everybody could see this. He went off,
25 and he kept his word; he didn't come back again.
1 Q. Now, you've indicated that at some point he
2 handed you -- he reached in his pocket and handed you
3 or showed you a note or showed you something, and he
4 said, "See what Kvocka gave me and where you are to
5 go," and the note said "kop 2". What is "kop 2"?
6 A. He said -- as far as I know, "kop 2" are pits
7 where iron ore was mined, because Omarska was an iron
8 ore mine. And these are very large pits, very deep, in
9 which -- as far as I know, they were filled with water,
10 and the rumour in the camp was that the dead were being
11 thrown into those pits.
12 Q. Now, you indicate that after this incident,
13 Janjic did not beat you again. I'm going to move on to
14 the third incident, but I believe we're going to have a
15 pause before the third incident.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I had
17 hoped to finish the examination-in-chief, and that is
18 why I didn't interrupt earlier on.
19 Perhaps, Witness, we're going to ask you to
20 leave the courtroom in the company of the usher for a
21 break. The break will, in principle, last 30 minutes.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
24 how much more time do you need, please, to finish the
1 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, this witness will
2 speak about one more specific incident of beating that
3 occurred in the camp. The witness will also testify
4 about when he left the camp. And then the witness will
5 testify about events that occurred as he was taken from
6 that camp to another camp, how long he was in that
7 camp, where he was taken from there. And then also
8 evidence about the effects of the camp on him and his
9 family and the effects of being forcibly removed from
10 the Prijedor area on him and his family. So we have
11 several other areas to cover.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you
13 give us a rough estimate of the amount of time you
15 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe that it
16 may take us another 45 minutes to an hour for that.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that
18 case, we cannot begin with the cross-examination
19 today. It will be rather difficult, I think.
20 MS. HOLLIS: It may go quicker, Your Honour,
21 but that would be my estimate. Again, Your Honour, the
22 information at the beginning and the end is information
23 that we are eliciting in lieu of the procedure we
24 discussed yesterday.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Once we
1 emerge from this provisional stage, can we trust your
2 estimates for witnesses, because you had planned two
3 hours and it will be close to four hours. So I'm
4 asking whether all the estimates you have given us, can
5 we rely on them for the future or not?
6 MS. HOLLIS: Well, Your Honour, I must say,
7 in fairness, that these are estimates, that we cannot
8 tell you that this is the length of the examination.
9 So even if we confine ourselves to what happened in the
10 camp, which we believe we cannot, it would be an
11 estimate. It could go longer. So in candor to the
12 Court and in fairness to the Prosecution, no, we could
13 not promise you that it would be that amount of time.
14 Those are estimates. I believe we've indicated all
15 along those are estimates. They were our best
16 estimates, but I would be remiss to try to guarantee
17 you that those are absolutely accurate.
18 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
19 [In English] I just noted some repetitions in what he
20 said. Clearly, things which we already understood were
21 repeated. So perhaps you can avoid that sometimes.
22 MS. HOLLIS: If I can do so, Your Honour, I
23 will. Perhaps that will mean interrupting the
24 witness. I will attempt to do that.
25 But I must point out, Your Honours, that in
1 the Prosecution's estimation, this is all relevant
2 evidence in this case. This is the first witness that
3 you are hearing, and we would submit that this is not
4 unduly long, given all the experiences that this
5 witness had in the camp and the information that he has
6 about this camp.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We
8 understand that being the first witness, it can go on a
9 little longer. But we do expect you to speed up a
10 little afterwards.
11 Excuse me, Mr. Fila. I'm going to give you
12 the floor, but I should like to address myself to
13 Mr. Simic in order to learn whether you have any idea
14 as to the total amount of time -- I'm talking to
15 Mr. Krstan Simic, how much time, more or less, you
16 need. Are you in a position to tell us how much time
17 you will need for the cross-examination?
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
19 we agreed yesterday that the Defence, after the
20 examination-in-chief, will announce the order in which
21 it will cross-examine and give a rough estimate of the
22 time required. But as the direct has still not ended,
23 and especially in view of the fact that certain things
24 are cropping up for the first time that were never
25 mentioned in the statement, in the prior statement, nor
1 in the transcript from the Tadic case, the Defence will
2 have to have a short consultation regarding the order
3 and the time needed.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,
5 you wanted to say something.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
7 Ms. Hollis earlier said that she was afraid that the
8 Defence might put the same question five times to a
9 witness. Ms. Hollis has asked five times whether the
10 administration, the personnel of the camp, prevented
11 anyone from committing the act under Article 5 of the
12 Statute, and each time the answer was, "No." I'm not
13 criticising anyone, but this question could have been
14 put once. "During your stay in the camp, did anyone of
15 the camp administration prohibit such behaviour?" The
16 answer would have been, "No," and that would have been
17 the end of it. That is one point.
18 A second point. Throughout the testimony of
19 Mr. Beganovic so far, Krkan was never mentioned in the
20 Tadic case or in the statements that we have received.
21 The Defence agreement was that the clients that are not
22 mentioned, that their attorneys should not
23 cross-examine the witness, which would mean the Defence
24 attorney of Kos, myself, or Mr. Simic would have had no
25 questions for this witness, only Krstan Simic and
1 Mr. Tosic would have cross-examined. We have now heard
2 three additional names in the testimony, so now we have
3 to cross-examine. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
5 Mr. Fila. Regarding the question that you have
6 mentioned, I personally share that view. But first I
7 will give Ms. Hollis an opportunity to respond.
8 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. In
9 regard to the specific repetitions that were raised by
10 Defence counsel, the questions at the beginning were
11 whether he observed that, in general, as to any of
12 these situations, and then the later questions were
13 asked to his specific beatings, did anyone intervene to
14 stop them. If Your Honours are satisfied that based on
15 the current evidence it is clear that no one intervened
16 to stop any of this, we will stop asking the question.
17 But the character of the questions were different, and
18 we believe that that is a significant piece of
19 information for Your Honours to have. That is why the
20 questions were phrased that way; that is why we
21 continued to ask the questions.
22 In regard to the names that were raised,
23 there was one accused in the Tadic case, and that's
24 what that case, for the most part, focused on. It is
25 very clear that there are several accused, none of them
1 Tadic, in this case, and that's what this case is
2 focusing on.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could I ask counsel to slow
4 down, please.
5 MS. HOLLIS: Therefore, these questions are
6 relevant in this case that we submit were not asked and
7 potentially would not have been necessarily relevant in
8 the Tadic case. So to take the Tadic transcript and
9 expect the evidence to be all of the same, we submit,
10 would not be accurate because we have different
11 accused, we have different allegations about those
12 accused. That's why you are hearing things today that
13 would not have been found in the Tadic case.
14 In regard to prior statements, I'd like to
15 point out something that is perhaps a very significant
16 difference. We do not, in the Office of the
17 Prosecutor, take a statement using a procedure like an
18 investigating judge where we sit down for a case and
19 take a comprehensive statement for that case. The
20 statements that we take and have taken, and many of
21 these in this case were taken in 1994, 1995, are
22 investigative, and they are general in nature. They
23 are not aimed at a specific trial. So they are not
24 going to be matters -- they are not going to be as
25 comprehensive as a system would be if an investigating
1 judge were used to take a statement about a specific
2 case and a specifying charge. That is the reason that
3 you're not going to find all of this information in
4 prior statements. It's simply the practice of this
5 Tribunal compared to other jurisdictions.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think the
7 question of repetition of the particular question
8 mentioned by Fila, did anyone prevent anyone from
9 doing, it's true that it was repetitious. I understand
10 that you described various types of mistreatments, and
11 each time you put the same question. But it is true,
12 you could have described all the cases of mistreatment,
13 and at the end, referring to all those mistreatments,
14 "Did anyone try to prevent it?" But that's an
15 option. I understand your point. I understand it as
16 being your strategy, and after all, I cannot interfere
17 with the strategy of the Prosecution or the Defence.
18 But from the standpoint of efficiency, I think it could
19 have been done in a different manner. But I cannot
20 judge you on that.
21 Another question. It is true that there are
22 names that do not appear in the transcript, but one
23 must bear in mind that this is the idea of new
24 questions. We have referred to that. It applies to
25 both the Prosecution and the Defence. So the
1 examination-in-chief in the Tadic case was focused on
2 one person, whereas the witness knew a whole spectrum
3 of other people whom he didn't mention then, but he is
4 mentioning them now. And this is a new question which,
5 in my opinion, is justified both for the Defence and
6 for the Prosecution. So you will have the opportunity
7 to cross-examine. Otherwise, the Prosecution would be
8 prevented from presenting its case. I think the
9 Prosecutor must present its case and the Defence must
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Obviously, there
12 must be a misunderstanding. I truly apologise to
13 Ms. Hollis if she misunderstood me. I am not
14 criticising her for those names having cropped up. I'm
15 just saying that we will have to change our agreement
16 and the duration of the cross-examination. So, please,
17 if that is your impression, I do apologise,
18 Ms. Hollis.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We cannot
20 continue with this debate because we have to have a
21 break. But, very well, Mr. Simic, what is the point of
22 your intervention?
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
24 shall be very brief. I have drawn attention to a fact
25 that in the statement of the witness, which truly was
1 taken in 1994, as Ms. Hollis said, that that statement
2 is 20 pages long, and this case had not been started.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Anyway, we
4 are all intelligent people and we know what we are
5 talking about. And I think the intelligent thing to do
6 is to have a break. Otherwise, we won't be able to
7 function properly. And this also applies to the
8 interpreters. We are going to have a half-hour break,
9 because I think we should change a little bit the
10 rhythm, because if we have a break that is shorter than
11 half an hour, then the accused don't have a break. And
12 out of respect for the rights of the accused, I think
13 it would be best to have two half-hour breaks in the
14 course of the session for them to leave, because they
15 are entitled to following the debates and they must be
16 in a condition to do so.
17 So we're having a 30-minute break, and,
18 Ms. Hollis, I beg you to try and finish the
19 examination-in-chief at least today. I know you're
20 going to try. So half an hour, which means we will
21 resume at 1.40.
22 --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be
1 The witness is not here yet, Mr. Dubuisson.
2 What's happening?
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] He's coming.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, while we wait for
6 the witness, we would like to reiterate that the
7 Prosecution certainly is sensitive to the very
8 legitimate needs to expeditiously move through these
9 witnesses, and we will do everything that we can to
10 ensure that we both put on the relevant evidence that
11 we feel we need but also take all possible steps to
12 expedite the presentation of evidence.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
14 Ms. Hollis. We take note of your goodwill, and then we
15 will see about how it works.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
18 you may now continue.
19 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Beganovic, before the break we were about
21 to move on to the third incident when you were called
22 out and beaten. Regarding this third incident, how
23 many days after your second beating did this occur?
24 A. I think that it was, again, two days later.
25 Q. At the time of this third incident, where
1 were you being held?
2 A. In room 15.
3 Q. Now, what happened when you were called out
4 this third time?
5 A. I heard that my name was being called out. I
6 don't know who it was. When I got to the door, I saw
7 the same Dragan who was involved in the first beating.
8 Q. What happened after you came out the door and
9 saw Dragan?
10 A. My head was bleeding and one of the detainees
11 had put a piece of white cloth on my head in order to
12 try and stop the bleeding. I don't know exactly what
13 it was. It was a kind of T-shirt, white in colour.
14 And he told me, "Well, you're not a hodza. Why do you
15 need this white cloth on your head?" I didn't say
16 anything, and then he told me to come down. And as I
17 was passing by him, he started beating me again, and
18 again with a truncheon, on my back, on my head, on the
19 upper part of my body.
20 Q. Now, you indicate he said to you, "You're not
21 a hodza." What is a hodza?
22 A. A hodza is a Muslim priest.
23 Q. When he said to you, "You're not a hodza" and
24 he mentioned the bandage on your head, what was he
25 referring to? What did that mean?
1 A. I don't know. He was probably trying to
2 provoke me, to insult me.
3 Q. What happened after that? You indicated that
4 he had started beating you again.
5 A. Yes, he started beating me again, and he
6 pushed me to the lower part of the hangar.
7 Q. And by "the lower part", do you mean the
8 ground floor?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What happened once he had pushed you to this
11 lower part of --
12 A. A group of Serb soldiers were there. They
13 were all in uniform, in multicoloured uniform. There
14 were five or six of them. And he pushed me towards
15 them and they all started beating me. They took it out
16 on me. I was the only detainee there. I didn't notice
17 anyone else. So all of them beat me. At one point
18 there was some kind of pillars or sticks which were
19 marking the area. I think that they were metal. I
20 fell down at one point, near those pillars, and I
21 couldn't get up anymore. Then one soldier, I don't
22 remember which one, took me by my feet and he lifted me
23 up like this [indicates], and another soldier took a
24 metal cable and they hanged me by my feet with this
25 metal cable.
1 I don't know how much time I spent hanging
2 like this, I couldn't tell you exactly, but it couldn't
3 have been very long. At one point, my feet slid out
4 from my sneakers and out of the cable noose. Dragan
5 approached me at that moment and he said, "Do you know
6 me? Do you know who I am?" I said that I didn't know
7 him, that I didn't see him before in my life, that I
8 didn't know who he was, where he was from. And then he
9 told his -- these other soldiers, "Take this one away
10 and bring me Senad Muslimovic."
11 Q. Now, when he asked you if you knew him and
12 you said you did not, you had never seen him before,
13 why did you say that?
14 A. I said that simply because in the camp we all
15 knew that they never left any witnesses alive. So if
16 you knew someone, you could be killed. Whoever was
17 known to them -- whoever knew them by name and surname
18 would not be spared. They were killing witnesses; they
19 didn't want to have them say later on who they were.
20 If I had told him that I knew him, he would have
21 probably killed me.
22 Q. Now, you indicated that Dragan was engaging
23 in this beating with several other individuals. Did
24 you recognise any of those other individuals as regular
25 camp personnel at Omarska?
1 A. There was no one from the regular camp
2 personnel. They were all from the outside, from the
3 area outside the camp. I knew some of them; I didn't
4 know others. But there was no one from the camp
5 personnel there.
6 Q. Now, when Dragan said, "Take this one away
7 and bring me Senad Muslimovic," what happened with you?
8 A. I started towards the stairway but my
9 sneakers were left behind, and Dragan told me to go
10 back and fetch my sneakers. I told him I didn't need
11 them, and he said, "It's better for you to go back.
12 You don't want me to bring them for you." So that was
13 all I could do. I went back and they started beating
14 me again.
15 But after a while I managed to muster some
16 force and went back upstairs. I went to room 15, to
17 the spot where I used to lie, and when I reached that
18 spot I fainted.
19 Q. Now, after this third beating, were you able
20 to continue to go out each day to get food?
21 A. No. For a while I couldn't move. I didn't
22 leave room number 15; I never once went for food. I
23 spent seven or eight days like that. I was unable to
24 walk. And then after a while I managed to make several
25 steps. People would carry me to the toilet, but I
1 couldn't actually go to the toilet. I had not been to
2 the toilet for about 30 days.
3 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to the
4 last day that you were in Omarska, the day that you
5 were taken from Omarska. Now, on that day when you
6 were taken from Omarska, how many people were taken
7 with you from Omarska?
8 A. Half of the camp was taken, between 1.300 and
9 1.500 people.
10 Q. Now, on that day, the day that you were taken
11 from Omarska, when you were being brought out to be
12 taken away, how did that happen? How was that carried
13 out by the camp personnel?
14 A. Could you please repeat your question?
15 Q. Certainly. What was the procedure that was
16 used to sort you prisoners out and then to send you
17 from Omarska camp?
18 A. I don't know exactly on the basis of what
19 they selected people. They had some lists. They would
20 come with lists and read out names. Some people, as I
21 later heard, went to Trnopolje. Those who went to
22 Trnopolje were taken to the pista. And the rest of us,
23 we were lined up in front of Mujo's room. We were
24 supposed to be taken somewhere, and at that time I
25 didn't know where.
1 Q. Now, at the time that you were outside in the
2 area of Mujo's room, did you recognise any camp
3 personnel present?
4 A. All of them were there. There was some
5 confusion concerning the selection of detainees, so
6 they all moved around, walked around the area.
7 Q. Who did you recognise? What were the names
8 of some of the people you recognised?
9 A. At this moment I couldn't tell you precisely
10 who it was who read out the names from a list. There
11 were a few of them. One would begin reading the names
12 from a list and the other one would come to continue.
13 It's very difficult for me to remember exactly who it
14 was after such a long time. But those were the guards
15 who had been in the camp all the time, they were the
16 ones who brought the lists and read out the names.
17 Q. Now, where were you taken from Omarska?
18 A. From Omarska I was taken to Manjaca, to the
19 camp in Manjaca.
20 Q. Where was Manjaca? What municipality is that
21 located in, if you know?
22 A. I think it belongs to the Banja Luka
24 Q. How were you transported to Manjaca?
25 A. The situation was very chaotic concerning the
1 buses. At the beginning we had to bend our heads down
2 so as not to look out. But the column was stopped very
3 soon and we realised that we were moving in the
4 direction of Banja Luka, travelling along the
5 Prijedor-Banja Luka road.
6 Then they started beating us and they told us
7 that we should all kneel down and crawl under the
8 seats. So there were, I don't know how many seats, but
9 there was an equal number of detainees, and we had to
10 crawl under the seats. This is how I spent the night
11 until the next morning, when we got off the bus in
12 Manjaca. I remained in that position all the time. It
13 is very difficult for me today to understand how I was
14 able to fit in such a small space. But that's how it
16 Q. And how long were you held at this Manjaca
18 A. I was there from the 7th of August until the
19 13th of December, 1992.
20 Q. From Manjaca, where were you taken?
21 A. From Manjaca I was taken to the Batkovic
23 Q. What part of Bosnia was the Batkovic camp in,
24 if you know?
25 A. It is in the area of Semberija, in the
1 Bijeljina municipality.
2 Q. How long were you held in the Batkovic camp?
3 A. In the Batkovic camp, I was held from the
4 13th of December, 1992 until the 4th of March, 1993.
5 Q. Where did you go from there?
6 A. We were then exchanged in the municipality of
7 Rahic, in the municipality of Brcko, and this is where
8 I crossed over to what is called today the Federation.
9 Q. Mr. Beganovic, during your earlier testimony,
10 you referred to several camp personnel by nicknames,
11 for example, Krkan. Do you know, or did you know
12 Krkan's proper name?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You also referred to Krle. Did you know
15 Krle's proper name?
16 A. Mladjo Radic is Krkan. Krle is Milojica Kos
17 and Krkan is Mladjo Radic. And Kvocka, his name is
18 Miroslav. Prcac, his name is Dragoljub or Dragan.
19 Then there's Zigic, Zoran Zigic.
20 Q. You also mentioned someone you referred to as
21 Ckalja. Did you know his proper name?
22 A. I only know his nickname. Paspalj, I know
23 him by his family name, that is, Paspalj. As regards
24 Koka, I used to know his name and his surname but I
25 cannot remember it at this point. I'd known him for 20
1 years, and everybody called him Koka.
2 Q. Now, you've mentioned Prcac. Did you know
3 Prcac before the camp?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How did you come to know him in the camp?
6 A. Well, I heard that there was a Prcac who came
7 to the camp and who replaced Kvocka as the commander.
8 I may have seen him once or twice in the camp, but I
9 didn't know him at all; I didn't know him from
10 Prijedor. And I also didn't see him in the camp very
11 often because I generally avoided going out. I tried
12 to go out as little as possible. I didn't go to eat
13 very often; I was afraid that I would be recognised.
14 That's why I didn't see him. And he never entered our
15 room, at least I never saw him enter our room.
16 Q. When you first arrived at Omarska camp, what
17 was your general physical condition?
18 A. I was fit, I was in a good condition. I
19 weighed about 70, 75 kilos. I was in good shape, both
20 physically and mentally.
21 Q. When you were taken from Omarska camp in
22 early August, could you describe for the Court what
23 your physical condition was at that time?
24 A. I was in a terrible physical condition. I
25 had 49 kilos in Manjaca when they first took us to be
1 weighed. I was like a skeleton, only skin and bones.
2 My legs were injured, my arms were injured, my head was
3 injured, but somehow I managed to overcome that
4 suffering psychologically. I think that
5 psychologically I was relatively well. However, the
6 physical injuries were terrible.
7 Q. What long-term effects, if any, have you felt
8 as a result of your detention in Omarska and the
9 physical abuse of you in Omarska?
10 A. Of course the consequences are long-term
11 consequences. I still feel the injuries in my spine.
12 I often have pains in my legs and my arms. I have
13 headaches. Before the camp, I never suffered from
14 headaches. Now I often have them, very severe
15 headaches. I also suffer from insomnia.
16 Q. Now, you've described what your general
17 financial situation was prior to being taken to
18 Omarska. As a result of being forced to leave that
19 area, would you describe for the Court what your
20 personal circumstances are today?
21 A. Today, until very recently, I was on social
22 welfare. However, in the past year, my wife opened a
23 florist shop here in the Netherlands and she's slowly
24 beginning to do business. So as regards our financial
25 situation, it is okay now. I don't know what we are
1 going to do. We will see about this florist shop. But
2 until last year, I was living on social welfare here in
4 Q. The properties that you held in Prijedor
5 prior to 30 May 1992, have you been able to recover any
6 of those properties?
7 A. No, I haven't. Nothing. Though I visited
8 Prijedor a month ago, two of my business premises are
9 still there, a cafe and the florist shop, the Pink
10 Cafe. However, the Serbs who are now there are
11 refusing to leave and the authorities are not doing
12 anything to give those premises back to me. I don't
13 know what will happen next. There hasn't been any
14 change in that regard in Prijedor.
15 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have no further
16 questions of the witness.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
18 very much, Ms. Hollis. You have managed to finish
19 today, and thank you for that.
20 Let me turn now to Mr. Krstan Simic.
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
22 in view of the time, it is ten minutes past two, I
23 don't know whether it would be in our interests, in our
24 common interests, to begin today. After an examination
25 like this, the Defence should at least be given an
1 opportunity to make an order and to organise themselves
2 in order to avoid repetition and a waste of time, so we
3 would need at least ten minutes for this consultation.
4 Or perhaps we can continue with the cross-examination
5 tomorrow morning. We will accept your decision.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, I
7 thought that during the break you were able to have a
8 consultation, because the examination-in-chief was
9 almost finished. But in any event, you owe us 20
10 minutes because you were actually supposed to have a
11 consultation during the break.
12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
13 we can start. We have made a plan.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
15 then. Let us use these 20 minutes. What will be the
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
18 I will first ask questions, then counsel for Mr. Zigic,
19 and then after that, Mr. Nikolic, and then Mr. Fila,
20 and Mr. Simic at the end. The only change in the order
21 is that Mr. Tosic will be asking questions after me.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I
23 understand you correctly, the order will be as
24 follows: You will begin, you, Mr. Krstan Simic, then
25 Mr. Tosic, then Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Fila --
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the
2 Nikolic team, the Defence team for Mr. Kos.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
4 then. It will be up to the team of the Defence. So
5 when I say Simic, Tosic, Nikolic, Fila, you will each
6 tell me who will be the counsel conducting the
7 cross-examination, but the order is as I have just read
8 it. Very well, then.
9 Witness, you are now going to answer
10 questions that will be put to you by the counsel for
11 the Defence. Let me take this opportunity to remind
12 you that we are here to bring justice and not to take
13 any revenge. I'm telling this for all of you. I know
14 that the Defence counsel are doing their job here, they
15 know what they're doing, and that you will be treated
16 in a gentlemanly manner.
17 Mr. Simic, you do have the floor.
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
19 Mr. President. I really do wish to express profound
20 regret on account of what Mr. Beganovic has
21 experienced. But I think that hatred is something we
22 must put aside and I fully support what you have just
23 said, and I think the truth is a good ally in life, so
24 I expect Mr. Beganovic to act accordingly.
25 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
1 Q. Mr. Beganovic, let us talk a little bit about
2 the period of the election campaign, the events that
3 took place at the time. You said a moment ago that
4 there were three national parties and that they were
5 joined mostly by members of the corresponding ethnic
6 groups: Serbs, Muslims, or Croats.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know any Serb or Muslim, or Bosniak,
9 to be more precise, that did not join those parties
10 based on ethnicity?
11 A. I am not aware of that. I just know that
12 there were both Muslims, Serbs, and Croats in Ante
13 Markovic's party, of which I was a member, the
15 Q. Yes. Can you tell us, what was the position
16 of all the nationalist parties towards Ante Markovic's
18 A. I think it was a negative one.
19 Q. Was that party exposed to certain attacks, or
20 rather the members of that party, did they have
21 political difficulties, to put it that way?
22 A. Not really. I don't think you could put it
23 that way, that there was any real problems. But there
24 were verbal exchanges amongst citizens, both Muslims,
25 Serbs, and Croats. People would say, "As all the Serbs
1 can be in with their party, why can't we be in ours?"
2 The Croats said the same for the HDZ. So that the
3 majority of citizens supported the national parties.
4 In fact, the population split up along those lines.
5 Q. As a person from town, you had access to a
6 large quantity of information. Do you know which was
7 the first national party to be established in the
8 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 A. I don't know. That didn't interest me. As
10 far as national parties are concerned, I was actually
11 in Holland in 1990 for a couple of months on business
12 at the time, so that when I came to Bosnia, when I
13 returned from Holland at the end of 1990, everything
14 had been prepared. I wasn't interested in politics
15 anyway so I don't know those things.
16 Q. As I belong to Ante Markovic's party, I have
17 certain information about that, so perhaps I know a
18 little bit more about it.
19 Do you know that all the national parties,
20 the HDZ, the SDA, and the HDZ [sic], did they form a
21 coalition block against Ante Markovic's party?
22 A. In my opinion they did.
23 Q. Was it publicly announced as a coalition of
24 national parties?
25 A. It wasn't public, but that's how they worked
1 and that is the impression they gave.
2 Q. After the elections --
3 A. Let me say you made a mistake, but it doesn't
4 matter. It was in 1990 the elections were, not in
6 Q. What was the relationship in Prijedor among
7 the parties?
8 A. The SDA won, then SDS, and then the HDZ.
9 Q. Did the SDA get a sufficient number of votes
10 to form the government alone in Prijedor, or was this
11 again a kind of coalition?
12 A. No. It obtained a sufficient number of votes
13 to be the majority party; that is a fact. The SDA --
14 that is something we cannot deny, although I was never
15 a supporter of the SDA.
16 Q. Are you saying that the SDA won more than 50
17 per cent of the votes?
18 A. It won and it formed the government until the
19 forcible takeover on the 30th of April. That's a
20 fact. No one can deny that. The SDA was in power in
21 Prijedor, and the departments were distributed.
22 Everything was known; who was the president of the
23 municipality, the president of the court, who was the
24 general manager of the mines, of the electrical
25 distribution company, et cetera. I don't know what is
1 in dispute.
2 Q. What do you mean it wasn't in power?
3 A. I would have liked it not to have been in
4 power but it was.
5 Q. Obviously we don't understand one another.
6 For the SDA to form a government, it would need to have
7 51 per cent of the votes.
8 A. How do I know how many votes it got? I know
9 who held the various positions.
10 Q. Who was the president of the municipality?
11 A. A Muslim.
12 Q. Who was the president of the local
14 A. The president of the municipality was a
15 Muslim; the chief of police was a Muslim; and the post
16 office and the electricity supply system was held by
18 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you a very clear and
19 precise question. Who was the president of the
20 municipal government?
21 A. I was a businessman at the time. It didn't
22 interest me.
23 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you're talking about facts
24 here. You just said that things were a fact. I'm
25 asking you who was the president of the municipal
2 A. He was a Muslim.
3 Q. What was his name?
4 A. He was a teacher, professor, Muhamed -- I
5 can't remember the surname just now. Muhamed. I know
6 that he was a teacher at the high school in Prijedor.
7 I will recall his name a little later.
8 Q. Let me simplify things. So in your view, the
9 president of the municipal government was a member of
10 the Muslim ethnic group.
11 Now let's go back to the tensions that you
12 spoke to. How were they manifesting themselves, when
13 in April you removed your family before the takeover?
14 A. Precisely because the tensions had heightened
15 to such a degree that I saw that something would
16 happen. I don't know what. Whether the people would
17 move out or there would be a war, whether there would
18 be a front line or not, one couldn't tell yet at the
20 But with the return of the Serb fighters from
21 the Croatian front, they behaved so arrogantly and
22 aggressively that it was dangerous for me, not to
23 mention my wife and child. It was not possible to do
24 business any more normally, and that is why I took that
25 decision. Originally we had planned it for a month.
1 Go on a holiday. Why wait for the summer? Go for a
2 holiday in April, go and visit the family, until we see
3 what happens, I won't leave. And that was the reason.
4 There was shooting in Prijedor as if there was a war on
6 Q. You mentioned the possibility of war. Who
7 would be waging the war in Prijedor?
8 A. These Serb fighters, these veterans who come
9 from Croatia, whose friend or brother gets killed and
10 then they come to Prijedor to take it out on us. But
11 that is not a war, it's worse than war. He has a gun,
12 a machine-gun; he has all kinds of artillery pieces.
13 And what do I have? And all the other Muslims, what
14 did we have? Did we have any weapons?
15 Q. A moment ago you said that there was more or
16 less a free market of weapons.
17 A. Not more or less. There really was a
19 Q. Could anyone buy a weapon?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Anyone who had the money to do so?
22 A. Yes, that is a fact.
23 Q. Money did not care about ethnicity.
24 A. No, it did not.
25 Q. Let us go back now for a moment to the
1 Patriotic League. You agree that when a public rally
2 is organised, permission is required. Who granted
4 A. The SUP in Prijedor.
5 Q. Who headed the SUP?
6 A. A Muslim.
7 Q. What was his name?
8 A. Hasan Talundzic.
9 Q. Who and why would -- who would withhold
10 permission for holding this peace initiative?
11 A. As of the 30th of April it was not possible
12 because the checkpoints cropped up the very next day.
13 Until April it was possible; that's a fact.
14 Q. Yes. But in March, was it prohibited?
15 A. We stopped working in March already because
16 there was this forcible takeover of Prijedor. That was
17 on the 15th of March.
18 Q. The first attempt or --
19 A. Yes. On the 15th of March, a couple hundred
20 of us rallied in front of the municipality, and then
21 for some reason they changed their minds and they
22 postponed this until they did so by force of arms. So
23 that in March we stopped our concerts and rallies.
24 Kuruzovic would not let us enter the
25 municipality. He organised the TO. Kuruzovic knows
1 what he did around Prijedor. He threatened that he
2 would take me to Croatian Gradiska to see what they had
3 done to Gradiska because of the Ustashas and people
4 like me. And what I had been doing until then? I was
5 engaged in catering and the florist business.
6 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you mentioned the 15th of
7 March as an attempt to take over power.
8 A. I think it was in March.
9 Q. How did that manifest itself?
10 A. Well, they simply came, the Serbs. They were
11 so powerful. They positioned snipers on the mine
12 administration building behind the municipality. They
13 went into the municipality to come to some sort of an
14 agreement that power should be handed over to them, and
15 they entered. The negotiations started. Who with, I
16 don't know. I wasn't inside; I was in front of the
17 building. And then they saw that people were
18 gathering, and probably the time was still not right
19 for camps, so they postponed the whole thing for a
21 Q. What --
22 A. I don't know whether it was exactly on the
23 15th of March, but sometime in March. There was an
24 attempt to take over power in Prijedor in March, I can
25 guarantee that, the first attempt.
1 Q. How was it prevented?
2 A. Probably thanks to the congregation of this
3 large group of people in front of the municipality. It
4 wasn't prevented, it was postponed.
5 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you gave a statement in 1994
6 which you signed, it is 22 pages long, and you spoke in
7 great detail then about many things. Did you ever have
8 a weapon in your life?
9 A. I did.
10 Q. What kind?
11 A. Hunting weapon.
12 Q. What kind?
13 A. It was a carbine with a sniper, and a
14 shotgun, a weapon that my father owned for more than 30
15 years. He was the best-known hunter in Prijedor. And
16 these are weapons that I inherited, because my father
17 died in 1982 and my family made a gift of them to me.
18 But I was never able to get a license from the Serb
19 authorities, from the communist police, who were over
20 my head all my life, ever since I was born.
21 Q. Mr. Beganovic, will you please answer my
23 A. But this is linked to that.
24 Q. We'll come to that later.
25 A. Very well. But I apologise.
1 Q. Since you have opened this question, when did
2 your father die?
3 A. In 1982.
4 Q. In 1982? Was there a legal proceeding to
5 establish the succession? Were the weapons lawfully
6 registered as part of his property? I'm asking you,
7 did he have a permit?
8 A. Yes, he was a hunter of course.
9 Q. When the court ruling came, do you know the
10 procedure for legalising weapons?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. Did you submit a request for the weapons in
13 accordance with the court ruling on succession to be
15 A. I carried the request to SUP. I got a
16 certificate from the hunting society that I'm capable
17 of hunting, that I'm a hunter, and they gave the
18 certificate to SUP but they would never give me one.
19 But they did give me a weapon when I was called up as a
20 reservist to go to Manjaca.
21 Q. We'll come back to that later. What is the
22 basis for your acquisition of weapons? I'm talking
23 about the legality of holding weapons, of possessing
24 weapons? Did you receive a document granting you
25 approval, in accordance with the law, to hold in your
1 possession any weapons?
2 A. I received the court ruling whereby those
3 weapons were passed on to me as part of my
4 inheritance. Everyone knew this, that I inherited
5 those weapons from my father.
6 Q. When did you get a request that was rejected?
7 A. Yes, I received the rejection papers. Even
8 my wife, who was a graduate forestry engineer, and she
9 wanted to gain permission and she was refused too.
10 Rajko Zigic and company would not let her have it.
11 Q. Does that mean that without the permission of
12 the competent authorities, you held two rifles in your
14 A. I handed in those guns to the SUP and they
15 gave me time to submit another request to become a
16 member of the hunting society and to have the right to
17 possess the weapon, and I was rejected again.
18 Q. Did you complain? Did you appeal the
20 A. I did, and it was rejected. My wife
21 appealed, and again it was rejected.
22 Q. When were those weapons seized from you?
23 A. I think sometime in 1988 [Realtime transcript
24 read in error "1998"]. I can't tell you the exact
1 Q. The seizure of weapons, as a result of that
2 seizure, were you given a receipt on the type of
4 A. Yes, I think I was.
5 Q. What is Kratez? What kind of a rifle is
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] There's a
8 small error. Beganovic said "in 1988" and there's an
9 error in the transcript.
10 Q. When was your rifle seized from you?
11 A. Around 1988, I think.
12 Q. Did you get a receipt? Because weapons were
13 seized from you as you had possession of them
15 A. I think so.
16 Q. Does it say anything, that receipt?
17 A. How can I remember what it says?
18 Q. Does it have a number of the rifle and name
19 of it?
20 A. Of course.
21 Q. Please don't be angry at me. I'm just asking
22 you these things. Why does it say under number 2
23 "Kratez"? Did you ever have a shorter rifle?
24 A. No. It was a normal shotgun, .12 calibre,
25 and a carbine, bought in Novi Sad at an exhibition of
1 hunting weapons, with the latest sniper, one that can
2 be used at night. And my father even had medals for
3 capital deer that he had killed, so he had very good,
4 high quality weapons. I don't know what you mean by
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
7 I apologise for interrupting you but we have to close
8 for today. Is that all right? We'll adjourn now.
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Fine,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Further to
12 what I have said -- yes, the witness should come back
13 again tomorrow. He's leaving us now.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Further to
16 what I have said in relation to the pattern of two
17 breaks of half an hour each, to give the accused time
18 to rest as well, I would like to suggest the following
19 timetable, which I would like you to note down:
20 We start at 9.30. We will have a break at
21 11.00, and after a 30-minute break, which means the
22 second slot of work will be from 11.30 until ten to
23 one. And then again a half-hour break, and the third
24 slot will be from 1.20 until 2.30.
25 You see that we get tired as we move along,
1 so we're shortening the working period. The first will
2 be for an hour, thirty; the second one hour, twenty;
3 and the third one hour, ten. So in total four working
5 Why am I saying this? I'm saying this for
6 you to be able to manage your own time. You have
7 questions to put, and my idea would be that it is not
8 convenient to interrupt a question for the benefit of a
9 break. If you only have one question, you will put it,
10 but don't go on to the next question until after the
12 So with these small differences, plus/minus
13 five minutes, we are going to try to respect this
14 timetable. And if you forget, I will give you the
15 classical sign of time out. It is universally
16 understood. I think everyone will know what I mean.
17 The idea is to regulate and organise our work. We all
18 know the rules, and the rule regarding the management
19 of time would be as I have just described.
20 But to guarantee that the accused has time to
21 rest, we have had to change the timetable a little
22 bit. So we're going to test it to see whether it
23 works, and to do so, we will meet here again tomorrow
24 at 9.30. Thank you.
25 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Could I
1 quickly put the Court on notice of an issue with
3 Witness number 3, because of business
4 commitments, we've had to change witness number 3 in
5 the order, so we'll move up a witness. So instead of
6 witness number 3, the person named as witness number 4
7 will move up into that position. The witness number 3
8 will be back with us next week and we will reinsert
9 witness number 3 in the order. But because of that
10 witness' business commitments that could not be
11 changed, we've had to change that order.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 Perhaps I should consult Mr. Simic, or someone else.
14 Do you object to a change in the order of witnesses?
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] From the
18 standpoint of the Chamber, we understand very well that
19 there is a certain order of the presentation of
20 evidence, but it is possible to change it. The only
21 thing is for the parties to be prepared and ready for
22 the cross-examination. But the Chamber has no problem
23 with it, and I see that the Defence does not object
24 either. So thank you, Ms. Hollis.
25 Until tomorrow.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
2 2.40 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
3 the 5th day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.