Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1329

          1                 Thursday, 4 May 2000

          2                 [Open session]

          3                 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

          4                 [The accused entered court]

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

          6  seated; good morning.

          7            Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good

          8  morning to the technicians.  I hope that the

          9  interpreters are here.  I can hear them.  Good morning,

         10  court reporters, legal assistants; good morning,

         11  counsel for the Prosecution.  I can see that

         12  Mr. Michael Keegan is not here today, but I think that

         13  the counsel for the Defence are all present.  Good

         14  morning to the accused.

         15            We will resume our hearing of the Kvocka and

         16  others case, and I hope that we will finally begin.

         17                 [The witness entered court]

         18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We made a

         19  ruling yesterday, but as regards the written request,

         20  we have already taken measures and we still insist on

         21  oral submission of motions.  Everything that can be

         22  dealt with orally, I think we should try and do our

         23  best to proceed in that way.

         24            Ms. Hollis, the witness is already here in

         25  the courtroom.

Page 1330

          1            MS. HOLLIS:  Yes, Your Honour.  The witness

          2  we are calling, Your Honour, is Emir Beganovic.

          3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

          4  morning, Witness.  Can you hear me?

          5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The

          7  interpreters are telling me that they cannot hear you.

          8  Could you speak up a little bit?  Can you hear me?

          9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

         10  I can hear you.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

         12  The interpreters have heard you this time.

         13            Could you please read the solemn declaration

         14  that the usher will give you.

         15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

         16  declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

         17  and nothing but the truth.

         18                 WITNESS:  EMIR BEGANOVIC

         19                 [Witness answered through interpreter]

         20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

         21  You may be seated now.

         22                 [The witness sits down]

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

         24  very much, Witness, for coming to the Tribunal.  I have

         25  to apologise for the inconvenience that has been caused

Page 1331

          1  to you, but I hope that now we will really begin with

          2  your testimony.  You will first answer questions that

          3  will be put to you by Ms. Hollis.

          4            Ms. Hollis, you have the floor.

          5            MS. HOLLIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

          6                 Examined by Ms. Hollis:

          7       Q.   Would you please state your name.

          8       A.   Emir Beganovic.

          9       Q.   What is your date of birth?

         10       A.   27 October 1955, and I was born in Prijedor.

         11       Q.   Are you known by any nicknames?

         12       A.   I have two nicknames: Braco and Began.

         13       Q.   What is your ethnicity?

         14       A.   I'm a Muslim by ethnicity, and I'm also

         15  Muslim by faith.

         16       Q.   Sir, in 1992, were you married, and at that

         17  time did you have children?

         18       A.   Yes, I was married and I had one son.

         19       Q.   Did you perform any military service?

         20       A.   Yes.  I performed my military service in the

         21  former JNA, in 1975 and 1976.

         22       Q.   What were your duties or what was your

         23  speciality in the JNA?

         24       A.   I served with the force engineers.  I was

         25  with the Sappers.

Page 1332

          1       Q.   Sir, prior to 30 May 1992, what was your

          2  occupation?

          3       A.   I had my own business.  I had a florist shop

          4  with my wife.

          5       Q.   Did you have any other businesses at that

          6  time?

          7       A.   No.

          8            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness also mentioned

          9  that he had a restaurant.

         10            MS. HOLLIS:

         11       Q.   So you had a florist shop and you had a

         12  restaurant business as well; is that correct?

         13       A.   Yes, I had cafes, restaurants; I had two

         14  businesses of that kind.  And the fourth business was

         15  my florist shop, the one that was run by my wife.

         16       Q.   Where were these businesses located?

         17       A.   They were all located in the centre of the

         18  town.

         19       Q.   The centre of Prijedor.

         20       A.   Yes, in the centre of Prijedor.

         21       Q.   During the time that you lived in Prijedor,

         22  where did you live?

         23       A.   Until 1990 I lived in the area of Stari Grad,

         24  where I was born, and in 1990 I moved to the Esada

         25  Midzica Street, where I built a flat on the top floor

Page 1333

          1  of one of my catering businesses.

          2       Q.   This area that you moved to in 1990, what

          3  area of Prijedor was that?

          4       A.   The area in question was the centre of the

          5  town.  It was the Esada Midzica Street, which ran

          6  parallel to the Marsala Tita Street.  Behind the old

          7  Balkan Hotel, that's where the Esada Midzica Street was

          8  located.

          9       Q.   Sir, prior to the events that happened to

         10  you, beginning in May of 1992, how would you describe

         11  your family's financial situation?

         12       A.   I was a rather successful businessman.  From

         13  a very young age, I was involved in business together

         14  with my father, and I was one of the wealthier men in

         15  Prijedor.

         16       Q.   What would have been the value of your assets

         17  as of May of 1992?

         18       A.   According to my estimate, the damages that

         19  were caused to me during the war would be somewhere

         20  between 1.5 and 2 million German marks, if I take into

         21  account all the property that I had, all the businesses

         22  and the real estate.

         23            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honours, at this time we

         24  would like to offer a map of the town of Prijedor as an

         25  exhibit, and it would be Exhibit 3/76.  We have

Page 1334

          1  provided copies of this map to Defence counsel

          2  yesterday, and we have additional copies for Your

          3  Honours and for the Registry.  And if I could ask that

          4  that be put on the overhead.  Yes.

          5       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, if you could take --

          6            MS. HOLLIS:  Could the ELMO be pulled closer

          7  to the witness, please, so the witness may use it.

          8  Thank you.

          9       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, if you could take a moment to

         10  orient yourself on the map, please.

         11            Now, you mentioned that for a period of time

         12  up until 1990 you had lived in an area you called Stari

         13  Grad.  Could you point to that area, please.

         14       A.   Yes.  This is the area in question

         15  [indicates].

         16       Q.   It appears to be an area that is surrounded

         17  by a canal or river; is that correct?

         18       A.   This is the Sana River and this is a canal

         19  which is called Berek [indicates].  This is a kind of

         20  island which is called Stari Grad [indicates].

         21       Q.   Now, on the map that you have, Mr. Beganovic,

         22  which is dated 1996, looking at the area you call Stari

         23  Grad, it appears that there are approximately two

         24  buildings in that area.  Do you see that?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1335

          1       Q.   Now, prior to --

          2       A.   There was a summer garden and a catering

          3  facility that was called Lovac.  The rest was

          4  completely destroyed.

          5       Q.   Now, as of 30 May of 1992, approximately how

          6  many buildings were there in Stari Grad?

          7       A.   I think between 150 or 180, maybe 200

          8  houses.  Between 150 and 200.

          9       Q.   And what was the ethnicity of this area of

         10  Prijedor?

         11       A.   100 per cent Muslim.  There was only one Serb

         12  who used to live in the area of Stari Grad.  He didn't

         13  own any property; he lived there as a tenant.

         14       Q.   Who did own property in that area?

         15       A.   Everything was privately owned.

         16       Q.   By what ethnic group?

         17       A.   All Muslims.

         18       Q.   Now, you indicated that there were houses

         19  there.  Were there also businesses located in that

         20  area?

         21       A.   Yes.  In 1990, some business facilities were

         22  built in one part of the park.

         23       Q.   Sir, if you know, what happened to all those

         24  buildings that used to be in Stari Grad?

         25       A.   First of all, they were plundered and then

Page 1336

          1  set on fire, and then bulldozers came and flattened the

          2  ground.

          3       Q.   Now, you also mentioned that you lived and

          4  had businesses in the area you called the central area

          5  of Prijedor.  Could you please show the Court what area

          6  you are talking about that your home and your

          7  businesses were located.

          8       A.   They were located in the centre of the town,

          9  in this area here [indicates].

         10       Q.   So you're pointing to an area that is just,

         11  as we're looking at the map, to the right of the Stari

         12  Grad area; is that correct?

         13       A.   Yes, that's correct.

         14       Q.   And what was the ethnic composition of that

         15  area of the town?

         16       A.   In that area of the town, the composition,

         17  the ethnic composition was mixed.  All ethnic groups

         18  lived there.

         19       Q.   When you say "all ethnic groups", what ethnic

         20  groups are you talking about?

         21       A.   Well, mostly Muslims, Serbs, and Croats.  But

         22  there were others as well.

         23            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honours, at this time the

         24  Prosecutor offers into evidence Exhibit 3/76.  And if

         25  the bailiff could retrieve that from the witness,

Page 1337

          1  please.

          2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are there

          3  any objections by the Defence?  No?  Very well, then.

          4  The exhibit is admitted, Ms. Hollis.  Thank you.

          5            MS. HOLLIS:

          6       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, you have indicated that there

          7  were a variety of ethnic groups that lived in the

          8  Prijedor area.  Do you recall when the elections were

          9  held in Yugoslavia, in Bosnia?

         10       A.   I believe they were held in 1991.

         11       Q.   And within opstina Prijedor, what party won

         12  the majority?

         13       A.   The SDA party.

         14       Q.   And that party was comprised predominantly of

         15  what ethnic group?

         16       A.   Of Muslims.

         17       Q.   And what other ethnic groups -- what other

         18  parties were there in the area at that time?

         19       A.   There was the SDA party, the SDS, the HDZ

         20  [Realtime transcript omitted "HDZ"], and the reformists

         21  that were led by Ante Markovic.

         22       Q.   Of the SDS party, what was the predominant

         23  ethnic group, if any, of that party?

         24       A.   They were almost 100 per cent Serbs.

         25       Q.   I don't see it on the screen, but I believe

Page 1338

          1  you indicated the HDZ party; is that correct?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   And what was the predominant ethnic group of

          4  that party?

          5       A.   Croats.

          6       Q.   You also mentioned the reformist party.  What

          7  was that party?

          8       A.   It was a party that was led by Ante

          9  Markovic.  He was the founder of the party and he was

         10  in favour of improvement of economic situation,

         11  economic policy in the country, and he had quite a few

         12  followers in Prijedor.  I was one of them.

         13       Q.   Was that reformist party affiliated with any

         14  of these other parties?

         15       A.   No.  No, it wasn't.

         16       Q.   How politically active were you?

         17       A.   I wasn't politically active at all, except

         18  that Dr. Esad Sadikovic, Redo Marijanovic and myself,

         19  in 1991, at the end of the summer, we established the

         20  so-called League for Peace.  The idea was to establish

         21  a kind of balance between the various parties.  We were

         22  advocating peace.  We wanted to attract people from all

         23  ethnic groups.  We wanted to show people that a war was

         24  not necessary in Prijedor.  We wanted to avoid the

         25  war.  We were fighting for peace.  That was the only

Page 1339

          1  option that was of any interest to us.  But at the

          2  beginning of 1992, the league stopped functioning.

          3       Q.   What were the kind of activities that the

          4  league participated in to try to show people that

          5  war -- that war was not necessary in Prijedor?

          6       A.   In the summer of 1991, we organised this

          7  League for Peace, and at that time the majority of the

          8  members of the league were people from the town area,

          9  and they were full ethnic communities, Muslims, Serbs,

         10  Croats.  We decided to organise public concerts.  They

         11  were held in the town and the message we wanted to

         12  convey was the message of peace.  We always managed to

         13  gather between 7.000, 8.000, sometimes even 10.000

         14  people who would attend those concerts.  So people were

         15  in favour of peace.  However, the political parties did

         16  not like our activity, and very soon we did not have

         17  any opportunities to work and we had to stop

         18  functioning.

         19            At the end of March, or was it the beginning

         20  of April, I don't remember, we stopped functioning.  We

         21  could no longer obtain permissions to organise

         22  concerts; we couldn't have any location for that.  So

         23  our activities simply stopped.

         24       Q.   You say at the end of March or the beginning

         25  of April.  Of what year?

Page 1340

          1       A.   1992.

          2       Q.   You indicated that you stopped because you

          3  could no longer obtain permission to organise.  Who was

          4  denying you this permission to organise?

          5       A.   Mostly the SDS party because the SDS party

          6  attempted to forcibly take power in Prijedor.  We, from

          7  the League for Peace, managed to gather a large number

          8  of people.  They went to the municipal building, to the

          9  town hall, and we had peaceful demonstrations and we

         10  managed somehow to postpone it for one month, for

         11  example.  But the SDS was gaining more power and they

         12  were quite strong in Prijedor, so we no longer had any

         13  opportunity to act.  And this is how the activities of

         14  the League for Peace stopped.

         15       Q.   Now, you testified that this League for Peace

         16  was created to show people that there was no need for

         17  war in Prijedor.  Had you observed increasing tensions

         18  between ethnic groups in Prijedor?

         19       A.   Yes, the tensions began to mount after the

         20  breakout of the conflict in Croatia.  The army, the

         21  JNA, was predominantly Serb, and they went to Croatia

         22  to fight there.  But the Muslims rejected the callup to

         23  go to Croatia, and when they would come back from the

         24  front, from Croatia, they would walk around the town,

         25  armed.  There would be shooting incidents.  Weapons

Page 1341

          1  were being sold, including, for example, hand

          2  grenades.  And this is what caused the tensions to

          3  mount at that time.

          4       Q.   You indicated when "they" would come back

          5  from Croatia and "they" would walk around the town

          6  armed.  What individuals are you talking about?  What

          7  group?

          8       A.   I'm referring to the Serb soldiers who went

          9  to Croatia to fight in Croatian cities, at the fronts

         10  in general.

         11       Q.   In addition to these Serb soldiers who had

         12  weapons, did you yourself observe other individuals in

         13  Prijedor being provided with weapons?

         14       A.   At that time I didn't observe that.  I didn't

         15  notice that anyone else possessed any weapons, except

         16  for the Serb soldiers who went to war in Croatia.

         17       Q.   Now, you indicated that weapons were being

         18  sold.  To whom were these weapons being sold, to your

         19  knowledge?

         20       A.   The weapons were being sold to everybody, to

         21  all citizens.  Whoever had any money could obtain,

         22  could buy, weapons.  An automatic rifle would cost up

         23  to 2.000 German marks, for example, and hand grenades

         24  were at the beginning between 20 and 30 German marks,

         25  and at the end they would sell for 10 German marks, for

Page 1342

          1  example.  All those weapons belonged to the former

          2  JNA.

          3       Q.   In the Prijedor area during this time, when

          4  these tensions were developing, you indicated that you

          5  saw Serb soldiers walking around with weapons; there

          6  were incidents where weapons were fired.  Did you

          7  observe any other military troops, equipment, or

          8  weaponry being moved into the Prijedor area?

          9       A.   Yes.  This took place every day.  They would

         10  go to Croatia every day; they would come back from

         11  Croatia.  People used to carry weapons around the

         12  town.  Nobody tried to prevent that.  There were lots

         13  of shooting incidents, lots of wounding incidents.  It

         14  was common knowledge amongst the citizens of Prijedor.

         15       Q.   Now, during the time period between February

         16  and the end of April of 1992, did you begin to notice

         17  any exodus of people leaving the town?

         18       A.   Yes, people were leaving the town in great

         19  numbers.  Every day buses would leave, and it was very

         20  difficult at that time to obtain tickets.  Mostly

         21  Muslims and Croats were leaving the town; mostly women

         22  and children.  People went to Croatia.  Some of them

         23  stayed in Croatia and then later on they left for third

         24  countries.

         25       Q.   Did any members of your family leave Prijedor

Page 1343

          1  at that time?

          2       A.   Yes, my wife left the town with my son in

          3  mid-April.  She went to Croatia, to the area of

          4  Istria.  She was staying with her relatives in Labin.

          5  And she remained there until September, and in

          6  September she joined a convoy to the Netherlands.

          7       Q.   Now, sir, why did you have your family leave

          8  the town of Prijedor at this time?

          9       A.   Simply because it was already evident that

         10  the situation was unsafe, that something would happen.

         11  We had all expected some sort of fighting, but that the

         12  massacre would happen, no one could have imagined.  All

         13  of us who sent our families away were fortunate because

         14  they escaped these terrible experiences.

         15       Q.   After you sent your family away, where did

         16  you reside?

         17       A.   The next day I moved to Dr. Esad Sadikovic's

         18  house.

         19       Q.   You mentioned Dr. Sadikovic several times.

         20  Who was he?

         21       A.   He was a doctor who had worked for the United

         22  Nations, but more recently he was in Prijedor.  He was

         23  a specialist for nose, ear, and throat.  He was one of

         24  the most prestigious citizens of Prijedor who lived

         25  before the war and during the war in the camp in order

Page 1344

          1  to help others.  He was widely beloved by members of

          2  all ethnic groups.  All of them respected him.

          3       Q.   What was his ethnic group?

          4       A.   He was a Bosnian, a Muslim.

          5       Q.   Now, why did you move to Dr. Sadikovic's

          6  house after your family left?

          7       A.   He was related to my wife and one of my

          8  closest friends in Prijedor.  We were best friends and

          9  we were very close, and I simply felt safer in his home

         10  than to go on living alone, even though tensions by

         11  then had already heightened.  And I simply didn't feel

         12  safe living alone.

         13       Q.   What did you fear would happen to you if you

         14  lived alone?

         15       A.   I was afraid that at night someone might

         16  throw a hand grenade at me or open fire at me, which

         17  was a realistic prospect, because the Serbs who had

         18  armed themselves started mistreating citizens and

         19  taking revenge on them out of certain personal

         20  reasons.  If simply they didn't like someone, they took

         21  their revenge on them.  So people simply did not feel

         22  safe.

         23       Q.   Sir, do you recall, on the 29th and 30th of

         24  April, the Serb takeover of power in Prijedor?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1345

          1       Q.   And after that event, what changes did you

          2  notice in the activities in the town of Prijedor?

          3       A.   They started out that same day.  They hoisted

          4  their flags on all the important buildings in Prijedor,

          5  with the four S's on them.  Then quite suddenly

          6  checkpoints cropped up in town at all major crossroads,

          7  in front of all important institutions, all over town,

          8  so that citizens had to pass through those

          9  checkpoints.  They were mistreated, those who were

         10  Muslims or Croats.  The Serbs could pass by without

         11  being stopped.  So that the discomfort started the day

         12  they took over.  The electricity was cut, though it was

         13  switched on and off occasionally.  The media were taken

         14  over as well; the Serbs used them for their own ends.

         15  So that life changed overnight, within 24 hours.

         16  People moved around town less and less, so that after

         17  some 15 or 20 days, people stopped going out

         18  altogether.

         19       Q.   And did that apply to you as well?  Did you

         20  stop going out?

         21       A.   Yes, I did too.  For the last ten days, I

         22  closed my establishments and I saw that there was no

         23  point in keeping them open.  There were no customers;

         24  there was no business.  The town was deserted.  So I

         25  limited my movements to the street where

Page 1346

          1  Dr. Sadikovic's house was.  We didn't need to go out of

          2  town anyway.

          3       Q.   When was the last time that you were actually

          4  able to operate your businesses?

          5       A.   The end of April -- no.  No, I'm sorry.  The

          6  end of May, around the 20th of May, I think, was when I

          7  closed them.

          8       Q.   Prior to these tensions that had escalated in

          9  the Prijedor area, the clientele of your businesses

         10  were composed of what ethnic groups?

         11       A.   They were of all ethnic groups.  They would

         12  all come.  However, as tensions escalated, the Serbs

         13  stopped frequenting Muslim establishments, not only

         14  mine but all Muslim cafes.  They simply concentrated in

         15  those cafes owned by members of the Serb ethnic group.

         16  So that the divisions were evident in this area too, in

         17  terms of the catering institutions.  It was known which

         18  were frequented by the Serbs, even though before the

         19  war we all used to go to the same cafes.  But after

         20  this, there was some sort of a division.

         21       Q.   I'd like now to direct your attention to the

         22  events of the 30th of May of 1992.  In the morning of

         23  the 30th of May of 1992, where were you?

         24       A.   I was in Dr. Esad Sadikovic's house.

         25       Q.   And was there anyone else in his house with

Page 1347

          1  you at that time?

          2       A.   Yes.  A friend of ours, a common friend, a

          3  private caterer like me, Asif Kapetanovic, who was also

          4  known in town as a successful businessman, he was ill.

          5  He had kidney problems.  And he was afraid to go to

          6  hospital, so that he spent the last two or three days

          7  at Dr. Sadikovic's house, who was giving him injections

          8  as treatment for his kidneys, whereas I had already

          9  been in that house for a month and a half.

         10       Q.   And Asif Kapetanovic, what was his ethnic

         11  group?

         12       A.   He was a Bosnian of Muslim faith.

         13       Q.   On the morning of the 30th of May, 1992, do

         14  you recall being awakened by Asif Kapetanovic?

         15       A.   Yes.  Yes, he woke me up.  I was sleeping.

         16  The previous night we sat together, until late.  I had

         17  a bit too much to drink, so I slept firmly.  I didn't

         18  hear the shooting.  When he woke me up, I heard the

         19  gunfire.  I got up, got dressed, looked through the

         20  window and saw that troops were moving around, wearing

         21  various uniforms, police uniforms, camouflage uniforms,

         22  olive-grey uniforms.

         23            We switched on the radio and started

         24  listening to the programme, and announcements were made

         25  giving instructions to how the Muslims should behave;

Page 1348

          1  that they should stay home, that they should be at

          2  rest, that they shouldn't move around.  And then later

          3  on they said that all Muslims should hang out white

          4  flags.  Those who didn't have flags, white sheets, so

          5  that the Muslim houses could be identified by these

          6  white flags, which Esad and myself did.  On both sides

          7  of the house, we hung up a white sheet.

          8       Q.   If I can interrupt you for a moment, sir.

          9  When you looked out to the town, you indicated that you

         10  saw individuals in different kinds of uniforms moving

         11  around.  Did you, when you looked out, see any signs of

         12  destruction to any areas of the town?

         13       A.   No, we didn't see any destruction.  But when

         14  we were hanging up these sheets, we climbed upstairs

         15  and I could see Stari Grad from Dr. Esad's house, and I

         16  saw that it was burning.  All over Stari Grad houses

         17  were burning.  I could roughly spot by parents' home,

         18  and I could see that there was a flame and smoke there

         19  too.

         20       Q.   And were your parents still in Stari Grad at

         21  this time?

         22       A.   I thought my mother was in the house, but

         23  later on it turned out that she was lucky enough not to

         24  be in the house.  She was staying with my sister in

         25  another part of town.

Page 1349

          1       Q.   And Mr. Kapetanovic, did he observe any

          2  destruction to any buildings that he owned or that his

          3  family occupied?

          4       A.   Yes.  After some time, maybe half an hour,

          5  Asif saw that his cafe bar was burning, and above that

          6  cafe was his family apartment.  This was, from

          7  Sadikovic's house, as the crow flies, some 100 metres.

          8  And he saw that the flames were about 10 to 20 metres

          9  high.  The whole house was on fire.  And he screamed,

         10  "My mother's inside.  She must be burning."  I decided

         11  to go with him.  We reached the house; however, the

         12  next-door neighbour told Asif that his mother had left

         13  the house prior to the fire and that she was alive.

         14       Q.   Sir, as you moved from Dr. Sadikovic's house

         15  so this area in the old town, what, if anything, did

         16  you hear as you moved toward that area?

         17       A.   I didn't understand the question, I'm

         18  afraid.

         19       Q.   Yes.  As you moved from Dr. Sadikovic's house

         20  towards Asif Kapetanovic's shop, where his mother

         21  lived, what, if any, sounds did you hear in the

         22  streets?

         23       A.   The shooting was still going on, and a

         24  soldier came up, or he was some 30 or 50 metres away

         25  from us and he shouted "Stop".  I turned around and saw

Page 1350

          1  that he was carrying a rather large rifle, something

          2  bigger than an automatic rifle.  It could have been a

          3  machine-gun.  So I said to Asif, "I'm not going to wait

          4  for him, I'm going to run."  There was a hedge of the

          5  house, I jumped over it and I heard two or three short

          6  bursts of fire.  I was lucky not to have been hit.  I

          7  went into the yard.  I knew it was a Muslim house.  I

          8  knocked on the door and the door was opened and I went

          9  inside.

         10       Q.   Now, how long did you remain at that house?

         11       A.   Maybe an hour, an hour and a half.

         12       Q.   And why did you leave?

         13       A.   The family where I went inside were listening

         14  to the radio, and the instructions on the radio were

         15  that the Muslims should come out with white ribbons

         16  around their arms, that they should form a line and

         17  head towards the centre of town, towards the high-rises

         18  there.  In Muharem Stojanovic's street, there were

         19  three high-rises, and they still exist, and we were

         20  instructed to congregate there.  Some of the people

         21  stayed there and another group was taken towards the

         22  Balkan Hotel.

         23       Q.   Now, as you and these people moved toward

         24  this area, were there any escorts that you had?

         25       A.   Yes, all the time.  There were members of the

Page 1351

          1  Serb police, the army, people in uniform, in camouflage

          2  military uniform, and there were others wearing blue

          3  police uniforms.

          4       Q.   And what weapons, if any, did these

          5  individuals have?

          6       A.   All of them had weapons, and they were mostly

          7  carrying automatic rifles, pistols, grenades attached

          8  to their belts, and so on.

          9       Q.   As you moved toward this centre point that

         10  you had been directed toward, did you see any dead

         11  bodies as you went there?

         12       A.   Yes.  As we were moving along the pavement,

         13  next to a small open market, on the pavement I saw a

         14  pile of some four or five bodies, one on top of the

         15  other, thrown into a pile.  I glanced across the

         16  marketplace and I saw another two or three bodies

         17  beneath the fruit and vegetable stalls.  They were all

         18  civilians.  They had no military insignia on them or

         19  uniforms or weapons.  There were no weapons there

         20  either.  They were civilians.

         21       Q.   Were you able to recognise any of these

         22  people?

         23       A.   No.  No, I was not able to recognise them

         24  because they had probably been mutilated by machine-gun

         25  fire, so I couldn't recognise anyone.

Page 1352

          1       Q.   When you reached this centre point, how many

          2  people were at this central point?

          3       A.   There were perhaps about 2.000 people.

          4       Q.   Did you recognise any of these people?

          5       A.   Yes, I knew most of them.  I saw my mother

          6  there, sister, my brother-in-law, and all the other

          7  citizens, most of whom I knew quite well.

          8       Q.   And what was the ethnic group of these people

          9  that you recognised?

         10       A.   Most of them were Muslims, but there were

         11  some Croats as well.

         12       Q.   What happened once you reached this central

         13  point?

         14       A.   Well, nothing, really.  We saw there were

         15  about ten buses from the city transport parked there.

         16  They gave us orders for the men over 15 years of age to

         17  go to one side, and children under 15 and women to go

         18  to the other side, which we naturally did.  We had to.

         19       Q.   Now, once you were separated into groups of

         20  one group of men, one group of women and children, what

         21  was done with the group of men?

         22       A.   We were loaded onto the buses, a column of

         23  buses was formed, and the buses set off towards the SUP

         24  building in Prijedor.

         25       Q.   On your bus, how many people were on your

Page 1353

          1  bus?

          2       A.   There was a driver in uniform and one or two

          3  escorts.  I think two escorts.

          4       Q.   And how many people who had been arrested

          5  were on your bus?

          6       A.   About 50.

          7       Q.   Now, you indicated that one or two people, as

          8  escorts, were on your bus.  What kind of uniforms did

          9  they have?

         10       A.   Blue uniforms.

         11       Q.   And did you recognise what kind of uniforms

         12  those were?

         13       A.   Police uniforms.

         14       Q.   Did you recognise either of those escorts?

         15       A.   In my bus, no, I didn't know them.

         16       Q.   Now, you indicated that once you got on the

         17  buses, then you moved in the direction of the SUP.

         18  Were you given any instructions as to how to conduct

         19  yourselves on the bus?

         20       A.   They said we should bend down our heads, not

         21  to look out the windows.  The column of buses stopped

         22  in front of the SUP.  We stayed there for five or ten

         23  minutes.  They probably went inside to get

         24  instructions, and then they came back, these escorts,

         25  and the column started off again.  We reached the JNA

Page 1354

          1  Street and then Partizan Street, and then we went

          2  directly to Tomasica.

          3       Q.   And what is Tomasica?

          4       A.   It's a village outside Prijedor, about 20

          5  kilometres from Prijedor.

          6       Q.   And from Tomasica, where did you go?

          7       A.   We didn't reach Tomasica.  Before we reached

          8  Tomasica, we took a left turn.  And afterwards, I

          9  realised -- actually, I never used that road -- the

         10  road led to Omarska.

         11       Q.   What time of the day did you arrive at

         12  Omarska?  Was it during the daytime?  Was it at night?

         13       A.   It was getting dark by then.

         14       Q.   And at the time that your bus arrived at

         15  Omarska, how many other buses, if any, also arrived?

         16       A.   I saw our column of some ten buses arriving.

         17       Q.   Now, when your bus arrived, where did it

         18  stop?

         19       A.   It stopped near the so-called pista,

         20  actually, next to the restaurant in Omarska.

         21       Q.   And what happened after your bus stopped

         22  there?

         23       A.   Well, they took some ten men at a time from

         24  the bus, searched them, took all their valuables from

         25  them, and told them to go into this room behind the

Page 1355

          1  restaurant.

          2       Q.   Now, you say when you arrived there, "they

          3  took ten men at a time and searched them."  These

          4  individuals who took the men off and searched them,

          5  were they waiting there for you when your bus arrived?

          6       A.   Yes.  Yes.

          7       Q.   And what type of clothing were they wearing?

          8       A.   They were also in blue police uniforms, in

          9  camouflage uniforms, in olive-grey uniforms.  There

         10  were all kinds.  They were all of Serb ethnicity, the

         11  army, the police.

         12       Q.   What kind of weapons, if any, did these

         13  individuals?

         14       A.   Mostly automatic rifles and pistols and hand

         15  grenades.

         16       Q.   And these individuals that took you off the

         17  bus and searched you, did you later see any of these

         18  individuals while you were detained in Omarska camp?

         19       A.   Yes, I did see most of them.  I would see

         20  them all the time.

         21       Q.   And these individuals that you saw, what were

         22  their duties at Omarska camp?

         23       A.   Some were leaders and others were ordinary

         24  guards.

         25       Q.   Now, when you yourself were taken off the

Page 1356

          1  bus, what happened to you?

          2       A.   They told me to take out everything from my

          3  pockets, and as I happened to be wearing a jean jacket,

          4  which I hadn't worn for a long time previously, I put

          5  my hand in a pocket and I took out a couple of

          6  crackers.  And he saw me put them down on a bench and

          7  he said, "You can execute this one because he used

          8  these to try and confuse our army."  So I was taken

          9  aside and I waited for them to take me to execute me.

         10            Then somebody started pushing me by the

         11  shoulders inside.

         12       Q.   If we could stop there for a moment.  You

         13  indicated that you took something from your pocket.

         14  What was it that you took from your pocket?

         15       A.   Ordinary crackers, fire crackers that people

         16  throw at New Year's, and I also had some papers in my

         17  pocket and they happened to be there.

         18       Q.   And then you indicated that, "He saw me put

         19  them down," meaning the fire crackers, and "he said you

         20  can execute this one."  Who is the "he" you're talking

         21  about?

         22       A.   Yes.  He used to be a guard in the camp,

         23  Pavlovic or Palic.  He had a dark complexion and dark

         24  hair and he had a lock of white hair.  I think he spent

         25  all of his time in the camp as a guard.

Page 1357

          1       Q.   During your detention at Omarska, did you

          2  come to associate him with one particular group of

          3  guards, one particular shift?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   And which shift was that?

          6       A.   I think it was Krkan's shift.

          7       Q.   When you say "Krkan's shift", that's how that

          8  shift was referred to in the camp?

          9       A.   Yes, Krkan's shift.

         10       Q.   You indicated that after this search and

         11  after you were taken aside, that eventually you were

         12  moved into a building.  What building were you moved

         13  into?

         14       A.   I was taken to a building behind the

         15  restaurant.  The place was referred to as Mujo's room.

         16  The soldier pushed me in but I didn't know who he was.

         17  I didn't know where they were taking me.  I thought I

         18  would be killed.  But this guy was wearing a blue

         19  police uniform, and when I turned, I recognised him.

         20  He was an active professional policeman in Prijedor for

         21  a very long time.  He told me to go there, and when I

         22  entered the room, I saw approximately 600 to 700

         23  people.  Most of them were known to me.  And he told

         24  me, "Just go there and hide.  Don't answer when they

         25  call you.  If you answer, you will be killed.  If your

Page 1358

          1  name is called out, just don't answer.  Just pretend

          2  you're not there.  This is how much I can help you, and

          3  this is all I can do for you.  Just go there and hide

          4  somewhere."  And he turned around and left after that.

          5       Q.   Are you willing to tell the Court the name of

          6  this man who gave you those instructions?

          7       A.   I couldn't do it now.  I know him very well

          8  by sight.  He used to be on duty very often in the

          9  centre of the town, in the street where I had my cafes

         10  and my restaurant.  And I would see him very often but

         11  I can't remember his name at this moment.

         12       Q.   Now, you indicated that when you went into

         13  this room you referred to as Mujo's room, that you

         14  thought there were perhaps some 600 people in that

         15  room.  Did you recognise any of those people?

         16       A.   I knew most of them.  My cousin was there,

         17  for example.  There were lots of people who were my

         18  neighbours from the Stari Grad area.  Lots of men from

         19  Stari Grad were there.  There were also people from the

         20  area called Lukavica, and I knew all of those people.

         21       Q.   And your cousin who was there.  What is your

         22  cousin's name?

         23       A.   Mirsad Beganovic.

         24       Q.   Now, these people that you knew in this room,

         25  what was their ethnicity?

Page 1359

          1       A.   Most of them were Muslims, but there were

          2  some Croats as well.

          3       Q.   Now, how long did you remain in Mujo's room

          4  after you were taken in there that night, that evening?

          5       A.   I only spent that night there.  The place was

          6  crowded; I think there were over 1.000 people there.

          7  We could hardly breathe, and there was of course no

          8  room for us to lie down.  And in the following morning,

          9  half of the people were taken to the pista and one half

         10  remained in the room.

         11       Q.   And were you taken to the pista or did you

         12  remain in the room?

         13       A.   I was taken to the pista.

         14       Q.   Now, how long were you held on the pista?

         15       A.   I remained there between 10 and 12 days, on

         16  the pista.

         17       Q.   And from the pista, where were you held?

         18       A.   I was taken from the pista to the "white

         19  house" first, where I was badly beaten up.  And two

         20  days later I was transferred to the room referred to as

         21  "Petniska" which means room number 15.

         22       Q.   And that room 15 was in what building?

         23       A.   In the building called "hangar".

         24       Q.   And how long were you held in that room?

         25       A.   I stayed one month, perhaps a little less

Page 1360

          1  than that, in that room.

          2       Q.   And then from room 15, where were you next

          3  held?

          4       A.   After that, I was taken for interrogation on

          5  the upper floor of the restaurant building where

          6  offices were, offices that were used for the

          7  interrogation of detainees.  And after that I was taken

          8  back to the pista, and on the same day I was

          9  transferred to Mujo's room.

         10       Q.   This is the same Mujo's room you referred to

         11  earlier; is that correct?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   Now, was there any other location at the

         14  Omarska camp that you were held prior to you being

         15  taken from the camp?

         16       A.   There was a small garage there which was not

         17  bigger than 20 square metres, I think.  I spent two

         18  nights and two days there.  There were perhaps 160, 170

         19  of us there, I don't remember, but the situation was

         20  horrible.

         21       Q.   Now, when was it that you were actually taken

         22  from Omarska camp?

         23       A.   On the 6th of August, 1992.

         24            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honours, at this time I

         25  would like to have the witness move to the model and

Page 1361

          1  point to the various locations he has described for

          2  you.  To do that most effectively, I believe we will

          3  need the assistance of the technical people to operate

          4  this camera.  Is it possible to have that assistance?

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

          6  Ms. Hollis, the witness may approach the model, and

          7  we'll did our best, as I see that Mr. Dubuisson is in

          8  contact with the technical booth.

          9            MS. HOLLIS:  If the bailiff could assist the

         10  witness with the microphone and the headset, please.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can see

         12  that Mr. Tosic wishes to say something.

         13            MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your

         14  Honour, for interrupting.  There were quite a few

         15  leading questions by the counsel for the Prosecution as

         16  regards a number of certain dates.  For example, the

         17  30th of April, the 30th of May.  There were also a few

         18  questions if the witness had seen any corpses, instead

         19  of asking him, for example, what was it that he saw.

         20  There were a number of leading questions.  I should

         21  like Your Honours to have that in mind.

         22            As regards the statement of the witness,

         23  there are some discrepancies and that's why I believe

         24  that it was a leading question.  The witness should

         25  have been asked a question like where he was on the

Page 1362

          1  30th of April and the event itself should not have been

          2  mentioned.

          3            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honour, could I respond?

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that

          5  Mr. Fila also wishes to intervene, so perhaps you can

          6  respond after that.

          7            Mr. Fila.

          8            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I

          9  should like to state for the record that the witness,

         10  while approaching the model, cursed the accused, Mladjo

         11  Radic.  Everybody could hear that.  We all heard him.

         12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't curse

         13  him.

         14            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we

         15  could all hear that.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

         17  can you respond to the objection raised by Mr. Tosic?

         18            MS. HOLLIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         19            Your Honour, the Prosecution submits that

         20  there are instances where, in order to focus the

         21  testimony and save time, you can indeed lead the

         22  witness.  You can refer them to a certain date.  If the

         23  Defence is saying that there is a dispute about when

         24  the takeover of Prijedor occurred, that is one of the

         25  facts that they have agreed to.

Page 1363

          1            So my submission is that these were attempts

          2  to focus the witness, to expedite the relevant

          3  testimony.  These are supposedly not facts that were in

          4  dispute.  And the issue about whether he saw dead

          5  bodies, he could say yes or no, and then he went on to

          6  describe them.  We suggest that these were not unduly

          7  leading questions.  They were attempts to focus and

          8  direct the testimony to relevant parts.  If we were to

          9  ask him what happened on that day, we'd sit here for

         10  two hours and hear him describe everything.  It was an

         11  attempt to focus the testimony.

         12            Regarding discrepancies in testimony and

         13  prior statements, alleged discrepancies, that's a

         14  matter for cross-examination.  So we believe that the

         15  questioning was appropriate.  It was not unduly leading

         16  and that the discrepancies are a matter to be addressed

         17  in cross-examination.

         18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I

         19  think that Ms. Hollis is right.  We will also be

         20  mindful of the remark raised by the Defence.  It is

         21  true that we did not reach a ruling on judicial notice

         22  yesterday, but we said that we take notice of a number

         23  of facts which are agreed upon by both parties.  We are

         24  going to apply normal rules in this particular

         25  testimony, but we are not forgetting that there is an

Page 1364

          1  agreement and one has to bear that in mind.  Otherwise,

          2  we will never finish this case.  You always have the

          3  right to intervene, but it has to be a justified

          4  intervention.  We have to bear in mind that we agree

          5  that certain dates are correct, are agreed upon, and

          6  that is why I think we can proceed in a speedy

          7  fashion.  And it is not necessary to incorporate

          8  everything in the examination-in-chief, but I didn't

          9  want to interrupt.

         10            We are trying here to have a good procedure,

         11  to make it better.  I thank you for your remark, for

         12  your intervention.  You always have the right to

         13  intervene, but you should do it only if it is

         14  absolutely necessary to do so and if it is useful.

         15            You may continue.

         16            As regards the conduct of the witness, I did

         17  not notice that, and the witness should bear that in

         18  mind, as he knows what he has said or done.  But I

         19  didn't hear anything.  We have to be very careful about

         20  that in the future.

         21            Ms. Hollis, you may continue.

         22            MS. HOLLIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         23       Q.   You have referred to the bus arriving at

         24  Omarska and stopping by the building you referred to as

         25  the restaurant building.  Would you please point to

Page 1365

          1  that building?

          2       A.   It was here [indicates].  This is the

          3  restaurant and this is the entrance to the restaurant

          4  [indicates].  This is the restaurant building

          5  [indicates].

          6       Q.   And the entire building, is there a term by

          7  which that building is referred to?

          8       A.   Here [indicates]?

          9       Q.   The building you were just pointing to.

         10       A.   The restaurant building.  That's how we

         11  referred to it.

         12       Q.   Now, you also mentioned an area called the

         13  pista.  Could you point out that area, please?

         14       A.   Yes.  This is the area here [indicates],

         15  located between the restaurant and the hangar, the

         16  whole of this area here [indicates].

         17       Q.   You mentioned the hangar.  You're referring

         18  to the long building across from the restaurant as the

         19  hangar building?

         20       A.   Yes, this building here [indicates].

         21       Q.   Now, you also mentioned a building you called

         22  the "white house".  Could you point to that building?

         23       A.   This is the building in question

         24  [indicates].

         25            JUDGE RIAD:  We don't see anything on the

Page 1366

          1  screen.

          2            MS. HOLLIS:  I'm afraid I can't respond to

          3  that, Your Honour, because I don't know the technical.

          4  I'm told that it was on the video.  I don't --

          5            JUDGE RIAD:  Proceed.

          6            MS. HOLLIS:  Do you see it now, Your Honour?

          7  Could they focus on the camp again with the camera,

          8  please?  I think perhaps, Your Honours, we're having

          9  technical difficulties, but we will move along with

         10  this.

         11            If the bailiff could please remove the roof

         12  of the building called the restaurant building, the

         13  restaurant building here.  If you could move the roof

         14  that's toward the back of the building.  Yes.  And we

         15  are now looking at the first floor of the building with

         16  the roof off.

         17       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, could you please point to the

         18  room where you were interrogated?

         19       A.   I think it was in this room here [indicates]

         20  B9.

         21       Q.   And B9 is the number that appears in that

         22  room; is that correct?

         23       A.   I couldn't tell you that.

         24       Q.   The number that you just read, is that the

         25  number that appears in that room?

Page 1367

          1       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes, this is the room in

          2  question, B9 [indicates].

          3            MS. HOLLIS:  Now, if the first floor of that

          4  building could be taken off, please.

          5       Q.   And if you could point to the room you have

          6  referred to as Mujo's room.

          7       A.   This room here [indicates], A9.

          8       Q.   And that is the number that appears in that

          9  room on the model; is that correct?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11            MS. HOLLIS:  Now, if the other roofs could be

         12  taken off that building, please.

         13       Q.   Now, you have mentioned the restaurant part

         14  of that building.  Could you point to that?

         15       A.   Here [indicates], A22.

         16       Q.   Now, during your time at Omarska, did you

         17  become familiar with a room that was referred to as the

         18  "glass house"?

         19       A.   No, but I would pass by that room when we

         20  went to eat.

         21       Q.   You were never in that room?

         22       A.   No.

         23       Q.   Can you point to where this room called the

         24  "glass house" is on the model?

         25       A.   This is the room marked A14 [indicates].

Page 1368

          1       Q.   Now, you've also referred to being in the

          2  "white house", being beaten there and also being held

          3  there.  Could you move to the "white house" and could

          4  you show us first the room or rooms you were in in the

          5  "white house" when you were beaten?

          6       A.   This is the building in question

          7  [indicates].  I was in room A6, the second room on the

          8  right side, looking from the entrance.

          9       Q.   So as you enter the building, the second room

         10  on the right is the room to which you're referring; is

         11  that correct?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   You also indicated that you were held in the

         14  "white house" for a short time.  Could you point to

         15  the room or rooms in which you were held?

         16       A.   I was held one night in room A3, the first

         17  room on the left.

         18       Q.   Were you held in any other rooms in the

         19  "white house"?

         20       A.   I also spent one night in the toilet, A5.

         21       Q.   And where is that room located as you enter

         22  the "white house"?

         23       A.   It was straight ahead from the entrance, A5.

         24  That was the toilet.

         25       Q.   Now, sir, you have also mentioned being held

Page 1369

          1  in a room you called "room 15" in the hangar.

          2            MS. HOLLIS:  If the bailiff could take the

          3  roof off the front part of the hangar, the part facing

          4  the "white house", the long part facing the "white

          5  house", if that could be taken off.

          6       Q.   And if the witness could please point to the

          7  room you referred to as "room 15".

          8       A.   This is the room [indicates], B7, and it led

          9  to room B8 and B23.  You could access those two rooms

         10  from that one.

         11       Q.   And as you went into the -- as you went into

         12  the hangar building, did you -- where was that room in

         13  relation to the stairs?

         14       A.   On the right side.  We would enter here

         15  [indicates], then we would climb up the stairs, and on

         16  the right side was the door leading to that room.

         17       Q.   Thank you.  If the witness could please

         18  resume his seat.

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

         20  would this be a convenient time for a break?

         21            MS. HOLLIS:  Yes, it is, Your Honour.

         22            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         23  we think that this witness and several other witnesses

         24  which will follow is a very important witness for us.

         25  We should like to have an effective use of this break,

Page 1370

          1  and we would like to contact our client here in the

          2  vicinity of the courtroom.  We should kindly ask for

          3  our client not to be led downstairs, and I think that

          4  this will assist us in our work.  Thank you.

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

          6  Mr. Dubuisson, as regards the logistics, are any

          7  difficulties in this regard?

          8            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I will see

          9  about it, Your Honour.  I will see if there are any

         10  problems.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

         12  then.  If it is possible that this contact is allowed,

         13  and when we come back, if there are any problems -- I

         14  should like the witness to leave the courtroom before

         15  us, in order to avoid any conflict.  So the witness

         16  will only be brought in after the Judges have entered

         17  the courtroom.

         18                 [The witness withdrew]

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry I

         20  had to take this measure, but it is in order to avoid

         21  any problems, any conflicts.

         22            We will have a 20-minute break now.  The

         23  break will be a 30-minute break so that the requested

         24  contact can be made.  A 30-minute break.

         25                 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

Page 1371

          1                 --- On resuming at 11.28 p.m.

          2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

          3  seated.

          4                 [The witness entered court]

          5            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honour, as the witness

          6  enters, the Prosecution feels it necessary to put on

          7  the record that my colleague was observing the witness

          8  as he moved to the model and did not observe any

          9  indication of his lips moving to say something, nor

         10  hear any derogatory comments.  In light of the Defence

         11  assertion, we wanted to put that on the record.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

         13  Ms. Hollis.  You may continue.  But still, there is

         14  tension that one can feel in the courtroom and we have

         15  to contain it.  So please continue, Ms. Hollis.

         16            MS. HOLLIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         17       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, you indicated that you spent

         18  the first night in this room called Mujo's room and

         19  that the next day you were taken to this pista area

         20  that you have identified for the Court.

         21            Now, this next day when you were taken to the

         22  pista area, did you see any uniformed personnel in this

         23  area?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   What did you see?

Page 1372

          1       A.   I saw soldiers in military uniform, policemen

          2  in blue uniforms.  They were moving around.  There was

          3  a vehicle next to the pista, a police car, a police

          4  armoured vehicle, which had its barrels turned towards

          5  us.

          6       Q.   Now, this police armoured vehicle with its

          7  barrels pointed toward you, did you come to associate

          8  that vehicle with a certain group of people?

          9       A.   Yes.  One could see that the Serb army

         10  controlled that vehicle and that they were holding us

         11  in their sights in case of any rebellion or something.

         12       Q.   Now, the people that you saw and associated

         13  with this vehicle, were these people that you saw

         14  throughout your detention in Omarska?

         15       A.   No.  I saw them for the first 10 or 12 days,

         16  and through contacts and stories, we could come to the

         17  conclusion that they came from Banja Luka.

         18       Q.   Now, these individuals that you saw for the

         19  first 10 to 12 days in Omarska, what was their conduct

         20  toward detainees?  What did you observe of their

         21  conduct toward detainees?

         22       A.   Well, they treated us roughly.  They wouldn't

         23  let us go to the toilet; they wouldn't give us water;

         24  they wouldn't give us food.  For the first six days I

         25  didn't get a single piece of bread.  It was on the

Page 1373

          1  sixth day that I got some food.

          2       Q.   This abuse that you talk about, what time of

          3  the day or night did this abuse occur?

          4       A.   This would happen during the day and during

          5  the night.  Every minute, every second, they wouldn't

          6  leave us alone.  There was always someone who was being

          7  physically mistreated.  Psychologically, of course,

          8  they were taking people up there for some sort of

          9  interrogation, to the premises above the restaurant.

         10  People would come back; in 99 per cent of the cases,

         11  they were beaten up.  This started straight away, the

         12  very first days.

         13       Q.   Now, this group that you believed came from

         14  Banja Luka, what, if anything, did you observe of the

         15  interaction between this group and the regular camp

         16  personnel?

         17       A.   No.  They contacted amongst themselves, as if

         18  they all belonged to the same military unit, or the

         19  police administration.  They behaved in the same way,

         20  the people from Banja Luka, as well as those from

         21  Prijedor municipality.  They cooperated; they

         22  collaborated.

         23       Q.   Now, this unit you believed to be from Banja

         24  Luka, when they were in the camp and they were engaging

         25  in this abuse of detainees, did you ever observe anyone

Page 1374

          1  intervene to stop this abuse?

          2       A.   No.  No one prevented them.

          3       Q.   Did you ever observe anything that appeared

          4  to you to indicate they were punished for this abuse?

          5       A.   No, never.  No one was ever punished, nor

          6  could we get the impression that they were being

          7  contained in these efforts.  On the contrary.  They

          8  were being praised when they physically mistreated the

          9  detainees.

         10       Q.   Now, the camp personnel, other than this unit

         11  you believed to be from Banja Luka, did you know any of

         12  these camp personnel as people that you had been

         13  acquainted with or seen before the camp?

         14       A.   I knew a couple of those who were permanently

         15  in the camp.  I knew Kvocka; I knew Koka, the man known

         16  as Koka, who came to the camp on a daily basis.  He

         17  used to sell chicken and that's why he got the came

         18  Koka, which means a chicken.  I knew him for many

         19  years.  Then I know some others who would come to the

         20  camp occasionally, but they were not guards in the

         21  camp.

         22       Q.   Now, the ones that came to the camp on a

         23  daily basis, you mentioned Kvocka and Koka, and you

         24  said that Koka was a man you had known for some time

         25  previously.  When you saw him in the camp, what did you

Page 1375

          1  see him doing in the camp?

          2       A.   Koka?

          3       Q.   Koka.

          4       A.   Koka kept lists; he was constantly compiling

          5  lists.  He would come to the room known as number 15.

          6  Down there in front of the hangar, he would line us up

          7  and make these lists.  For what purpose, I don't know.

          8       Q.   During what period of time in the camp did

          9  you see Koka in Omarska?

         10       A.   I would see him while I was in number 15, so

         11  that would mean mid-June until the beginning of July.

         12       Q.   When you saw him, what kind of clothing did

         13  he wear?

         14       A.   Koka, I think, wore a blue uniform.

         15       Q.   What kind of weapons, if any, did you see him

         16  have?

         17       A.   I didn't see him with weapons.

         18       Q.   Now, you indicated that you knew him prior to

         19  the camp.  What was his ethnicity?

         20       A.   He was a Serb.

         21       Q.   You also mentioned that you knew Kvocka.  Who

         22  was Kvocka?

         23       A.   Kvocka was a policeman, and I knew him as an

         24  employee of the SUP.  I knew that for a while he was in

         25  Omarska and in Prijedor.  I knew his wife.  His wife

Page 1376

          1  lives some 100 metres from my house.  She's roughly the

          2  same generation as I.  I knew his brothers-in-law, with

          3  whom I grew up.  I knew that he was their son-in-law.

          4  My mother was friendly with his mother-in-law.  She

          5  would go and visit his apartment, and his

          6  mother-in-law -- one year they went to the seaside

          7  together, my mother, Kvocka, his wife, and his

          8  mother-in-law.

          9       Q.   You indicated that you knew Kvocka's wife.

         10  What was her father's last name?

         11       A.   Crnalic.

         12       Q.   Now, during what period of time did you see

         13  Kvocka in the camp?

         14       A.   I would see him in the camp immediately as

         15  soon as I came, the first few days, and then later --

         16  then I didn't see him while I was in number 15, but

         17  when I left number 15, I saw him again.

         18       Q.   Now, when you were on the pista, how often

         19  would you see Kvocka in the camp?

         20       A.   I would see him non-stop, every day.

         21       Q.   And during what periods of the day or night

         22  did you see him?

         23       A.   I would see him during the day, not at

         24  night.  He would enter, as far as I can remember, in a

         25  190 Mercedes car.  He would usually come to this corner

Page 1377

          1  of the restaurant [indicates].  Then he would bring

          2  cigarettes, food, drinks, and he would distribute it to

          3  the guards more or less every day, and he carried --

          4       Q.   If I could just interrupt for a moment.  You

          5  pointed to an area of the restaurant.  So that it's

          6  clear on the record, what part of the building were you

          7  pointing toward?  The restaurant side that you

          8  identified or --

          9       A.   The side where the restaurant is.

         10       Q.   And when you indicated he would come to this

         11  area in a car, are you talking about him coming to the

         12  area that is closest to the hangar or the area that is

         13  farthest away from the hangar?

         14       A.   It would be the area on the corner of the

         15  restaurant, that's where the car would usually be

         16  parked, and he would take out things from the boot of

         17  the car.

         18       Q.   When you're talking about the corner of the

         19  restaurant, looking at the restaurant area, are you

         20  talking about the corner of the building that is

         21  closest to the hangar or the corner that is farthest

         22  away?

         23       A.   The way you are looking at it, the right-hand

         24  corner of the restaurant.

         25       Q.   So the corner that is farthest away from the

Page 1378

          1  hangar.

          2       A.   Yes.  Yes, further away from the hangar, the

          3  area towards the "white house".

          4       Q.   Now, in addition to seeing Kvocka doing these

          5  things, what else did you observe him do?

          6       A.   He was quite conspicuous.  He wore gloves

          7  with the fingers cut off.  He carried a pump-action gun

          8  all the time, known as Pumperica.  And he would walk

          9  around all the time, issue orders to them of some

         10  sort.  Simply he was their boss and they obeyed him.

         11       Q.   Now, in addition to walking around in the

         12  camp, when, if ever, did you observe him go into any

         13  buildings of the camp?

         14       A.   He would enter through the main entrance very

         15  often.  Then he would go upstairs to the offices or

         16  downstairs.  I don't know.  He would go in and out

         17  quite often, whenever he was in the camp.  He was

         18  constantly on the move.

         19       Q.   And when you say that he would enter through

         20  the main entrance and go into this building, what

         21  building are you referring to?

         22       A.   The building of the restaurant.

         23       Q.   Did you ever observe him go into any other

         24  buildings?

         25       A.   Well, I wasn't really interested at the

Page 1379

          1  time.  He moved around everywhere, all over the camp.

          2  He was walking around all the time.  He was on the

          3  move, as I said.

          4       Q.   Now, while you were in the camp, Kvocka

          5  actually provided you, or made it possible for you to

          6  have a package; is that correct?

          7       A.   Yes, it is.

          8       Q.   And that package was from whom?

          9       A.   It was a package from my mother, who took the

         10  parcel to his mother-in-law.  He personally didn't

         11  deliver it but the package reached me.  True, all that

         12  my mother had sent was not inside, but something was

         13  inside, some underclothes and some food.  This was

         14  towards the end of July or the middle of July, around

         15  there.

         16       Q.   Now, in addition to this one occasion where

         17  Kvocka made it possible for you to have a package, were

         18  there any other occasions when he made it possible for

         19  you to have a package?

         20       A.   No, I personally received a package that

         21  once.  As far as I know, my mother told me that she

         22  sent -- she carried packages a couple of times.  But I

         23  received one only once.

         24       Q.   In addition to these two individuals you have

         25  named as individuals you knew prior to coming to the

Page 1380

          1  camp, during your detention in Omarska, did you come to

          2  know and recognise any other camp personnel?

          3       A.   Yes.  In due course we learned more or less

          4  all the names of the guards, Paspalj, Krkan, Krle.

          5  Then there was someone known as Joja.  He had his gun

          6  pointed at us above the restaurant when we were lying

          7  on the pista.  Soskan, Pirvan, and others.  During our

          8  detention, we came to learn their names.

          9       Q.   Now, in relation to the person referred to as

         10  Krkan, is that a proper name or a nickname?

         11       A.   No, it's a nickname.

         12       Q.   And how did you come to know and recognise

         13  that person with the nickname Krkan?

         14       A.   Simply all the detainees knew it.  Everyone

         15  knew who was Krkan and who was Paspalj.  They addressed

         16  each other by name like that, so there was no

         17  difficulty in learning who was who.

         18       Q.   And how often would you see Krkan in the camp

         19  while you were in Omarska?

         20       A.   While I was at the pista, I would see him

         21  while he was on duty.  Then while I was in number 15, I

         22  couldn't -- I was immobile, so I didn't go out and I

         23  couldn't see them.  Then when I moved from 15 to Mujo's

         24  room, occasionally when we would go out into the fresh

         25  air, they would let us out occasionally, so he would

Page 1381

          1  come by, I would see him.  But I saw him most often

          2  during the first 10- or 12-day period.

          3       Q.   And when you saw him, what was he doing?

          4       A.   Nothing.  He was walking around there.

          5  Sometimes he would stand over there, where the round

          6  circular glass is, at the entrance [indicates].  He

          7  would just pass by there.  I didn't have any particular

          8  contact with him.

          9       Q.   And you say that sometimes he would stand

         10  where the circular glass is.  What building are you

         11  referring to there?

         12       A.   Yes.  The building of the restaurant, the

         13  entrance to the restaurant.

         14       Q.   When you saw Krkan, what weapons, if any, did

         15  he have?

         16       A.   I think he carried an automatic rifle.

         17       Q.   Now, you indicated some other names as well.

         18  For example, Paspalj.  How did you come to know him?

         19       A.   He would come into Mujo's room frequently and

         20  physically mistreat the detainees.  He would select at

         21  random.  He was drunk all the time and he would come in

         22  and shoot inside, he would beat people, he and Soskan,

         23  and the others.  They were there where the kombi is,

         24  the entrance near Mujo's room, there used to be a kombi

         25  van, and they used to eat and drink there.  And then

Page 1382

          1  when they felt like it, they would enter our room and

          2  mistreat us, abuse us, physically, psychologically.

          3       Q.   Now, when this mistreatment occurred by

          4  Paspalj and the person you referred to as Soskan, when,

          5  if ever, did camp personnel intervene in this

          6  mistreatment?

          7       A.   No.  No one ever intervened.  They could do

          8  what they wanted.  Nobody cautioned them or reprimanded

          9  them or punished them.  Nothing.

         10       Q.   You also mentioned a person by the name of

         11  Krle.  Would that be a proper name or a nickname?

         12       A.   A nickname.

         13       Q.   And how often would you see this person in

         14  Omarska camp?

         15       A.   I would see him too during the first period.

         16  While I was in number 15, I didn't see him.  And then

         17  when I left number 15 and went to Mujo's room again,

         18  during the last days of my detention, I was taken out,

         19  I think, three times in the evening.  I was

         20  blackmailed; they wanted money from me.  And he would

         21  stand next to the entrance with this Brk, who was in

         22  the camp.  He would come in a green Mercedes.  I think

         23  he was a taxi driver in Omarska before the war.  And I

         24  was blackmailed.  They wanted 100.000 German marks from

         25  me to be transported by helicopter to Belgrade, or

Page 1383

          1  50.000 for Prijedor.

          2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

          3  Witness, for interrupting you.

          4            Excuse me, Ms. Hollis, but I think

          5  Mr. Nikolic wishes to intervene.

          6            Do you have any objection, Mr. Nikolic?

          7            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

          8  I'm just referring to what you said as the president,

          9  that we should object if there is a good reason.  I

         10  think that the Defence counsel of the accused Kos has

         11  good reason to do this now.  I would like the

         12  Prosecutor to limit herself to the examination as

         13  regarding the circumstances that Witness Beganovic

         14  would be asked about as indicated.  I think that the

         15  Prosecutor has expanded beyond what was stated in the

         16  submission, beyond the scope of what was stated.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

         18  Ms. Hollis.

         19            MS. HOLLIS:  I'm not sure I understand the

         20  objection, Your Honour.  I asked a question that, the

         21  Prosecution submits, was relevant.  The witness has

         22  answered the question, and we submit that the

         23  information being provided is relevant.  I'm not aware

         24  that there is a limitation on the scope of questioning

         25  in direct, other than relevance, compared so some

Page 1384

          1  limitation that may exist on cross-examination.  So I

          2  must confess I'm not quite clear of what the nature of

          3  the objection is.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

          5  Mr. Nikolic, can you explain better what is the grounds

          6  for your objection?  The questions are beyond the scope

          7  of the indictment or what?  What do you mean?

          8            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'm holding the

          9  Prosecution's submission of the 23rd of February this

         10  year, compiled in accordance with Rule 65(C), and the

         11  Prosecutor has given an attachment and the first

         12  witness is Emir Beganovic on that list.  In accordance

         13  with Rule 65 ter (iv), under (C), the Prosecutor has

         14  indicated which points in the indictment each witness

         15  will be testifying about.  That is how the Defence

         16  understands it.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

         18  Mr. Nikolic, do you feel that the question goes beyond

         19  the indictment?  It is the indictment that is important

         20  here.

         21            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] This particular

         22  question to the witness is beyond the scope of the

         23  indictment.  That is the position of the Defence.

         24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

         25  do you understand the objection now?

Page 1385

          1            MS. HOLLIS:  I do, Your Honour.  And the

          2  Prosecution's position is that it is not beyond the

          3  scope of the indictment.  The indictment talks about

          4  conditions in the camp; it talks about abuse of all the

          5  prisoners in the camp.  This relates to that matter.

          6  It relates to a person who has been identified as a

          7  personnel within the camp.  It is being related to you

          8  by a witness who was in the camp and observed it, and

          9  now is the subject of about what he is about to discuss

         10  with you.

         11            Also, Your Honours, part of the indictment is

         12  that money was taken from people.  He's talking about a

         13  blackmail situation here.  We believe that this

         14  evidence is relevant to and within the scope of this

         15  indictment.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

         17  Mr. Nikolic, do you wish to respond?

         18            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] When we made

         19  our objection, we had in mind the statement disclosed

         20  by the Prosecution about the testimony of

         21  Mr. Beganovic, and on the basis of that statement, a

         22  submission made in which the Prosecutor was very

         23  specific, in accordance with Rule 65 ter.  And that is

         24  why we thought that the Prosecutor was going beyond the

         25  scope.  If that is not so, then this submission would

Page 1386

          1  not have been necessary, then the witness could have

          2  been called and questioned about all the circumstances

          3  related to the camp.  That is the understanding of the

          4  Defence.

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

          6  Mr. Nikolic, what we are talking about now is still the

          7  indictment.  Rule 65 ter is a rule applying to

          8  organisation, but the scope of the examination-in-chief

          9  is always based on the indictment, and it is the

         10  opinion of the Chamber that this question does not go

         11  beyond the scope of the indictment.  Therefore, the

         12  Chamber overrules the objection and asks Ms. Hollis to

         13  continue.

         14            MS. HOLLIS:

         15       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, you were describing three

         16  incidents where you were called out of Mujo's room, and

         17  Krle and Brk were involved in those incidents, and you

         18  indicated something about money.  Could you repeat

         19  again what happened on those incidents that you were

         20  called out, those incidents involving Krle and Brk?

         21       A.   This took place, as I said, in the last --

         22  during the last six or seven days of my stay in the

         23  camp.  One night my name was called out, they called

         24  out my name and my surname, and I thought I would be

         25  physically mistreated.  However, when I got out, I saw

Page 1387

          1  Brk, whom I had come to know very well in the camp.  He

          2  used to come to the camp every day.  And they spoke to

          3  me in a normal way.  Krle was standing there as well,

          4  together with one or two other guards.  There were

          5  three or four of them in total.

          6            Before me Muharem Murselovic was taken out,

          7  and when he was taken back I was called out.  Brk

          8  started talking to me.  He told me he knew I had some

          9  money, and if I wanted to remain alive, that I should

         10  give them 100.000 German marks and that they would

         11  transport me by helicopter to Belgrade.  There was

         12  another option.  I was supposed to give them 50.000

         13  German marks for me to be released in Prijedor, in

         14  town.  I told them I didn't have any money.  I told

         15  them that the money had burnt out, but they said they

         16  knew I had some money somewhere, buried somewhere, and

         17  that I could go back and dig it out.  And they said

         18  that they would come back on the next day and that we

         19  would talk about it again.

         20            I don't know whether they came back on the

         21  following night or two nights after that, but it was

         22  the same group of people.  They were standing outside,

         23  and the conversation ended like the first time.

         24            On the third occasion, when Brk called me

         25  out, I don't remember Krle being present there.  We had

Page 1388

          1  reached a kind of agreement.  He was supposed to put me

          2  in his car boot and he was supposed to take me to

          3  Prijedor and let me try and find my money.  However, at

          4  that time there were already rumours that the camp

          5  would be dissolved.  So Brk never came back and that

          6  was the end of the story.

          7       Q.   Did you ever provide any money to Brk or any

          8  of the others?

          9       A.   No, not to Brk, but I did while I was at the

         10  pista, during the first five or six days.  On one

         11  occasion they allowed me to go to the toilet, which was

         12  next to the restaurant building.  It was actually right

         13  next to the entrance, on the left side of the

         14  entrance.  And a man followed me.  He was from the

         15  group of the people from Banja Luka who were manning

         16  the personnel carrier.  He was a bit taller than me,

         17  perhaps my age -- a bit shorter than me, I'm sorry.  He

         18  pointed his rifle at me when I was in the toilet and he

         19  told me to take out everything I had in my pockets.

         20  There was about 1.200 or 1.300 German marks in my

         21  pockets.  This is what he took.  I had some more money

         22  but he thought that it was all.  And he told me that if

         23  I ever mentioned this to anyone that I would be

         24  killed.

         25       Q.   Now, in these instances that Brk and Krle

Page 1389

          1  took you out and Brk asked you for money, did Krle ever

          2  intervene to stop this?

          3       A.   No, he didn't intervene.  I had a feeling

          4  that he was there with them, that he was doing the same

          5  job, that he had a deal with them, that he was actually

          6  with the group that had come to try and extort money

          7  from me.

          8       Q.   Now, you mentioned that the name Krkan is a

          9  nickname.  Did you ever hear that nickname --

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   -- referred to -- used referring to more than

         12  one person in the camp?

         13       A.   No, I did not.

         14       Q.   And with Krle, you've noticed -- you have

         15  testified that that is a nickname as well.  Did you

         16  ever hear that nickname used toward more than one

         17  person in the camp?

         18       A.   No.  Only for him.

         19       Q.   Now, you indicated that interrogations began

         20  in the camp very early on; is that correct?

         21       A.   Yes.  They started -- I think it was a

         22  Saturday when I arrived in the camp, on the 30th of

         23  May.  I know that they started on Monday, the

         24  interrogations, because this cousin of mine, Danovic,

         25  he was taken on Monday morning for interrogation.  This

Page 1390

          1  is how I know that the interrogations had started right

          2  away.

          3       Q.   Now, based on your observations, what group

          4  of people were involved with these interrogations?

          5       A.   Mostly Serbian intellectuals, police

          6  inspectors, the people who used to be police inspectors

          7  before the war in the SUP, in Prijedor.  They were the

          8  ones who conducted the interrogations in most of the

          9  cases.

         10       Q.   Again, based on your observations in the

         11  camp, what difference in treatment of the detainees, if

         12  any, did you observe between the time that the

         13  interrogators were in camp and the time that they

         14  weren't in camp?

         15       A.   Well, it was more or less the same.  However,

         16  while they were conducting interrogations, people were

         17  beaten up in most of the cases.  Ninety-nine per cent

         18  of them would come back badly beaten up.  And this took

         19  place in every office.  They had a kind of cube that we

         20  were supposed to kneel on during the interrogation, and

         21  people were being beaten up.  They were trying to

         22  extort some confessions, signatures.  They were

         23  supposed to sign a confession.  And this always

         24  involved beatings, no matter what you told them,

         25  whether you participated or not in any political

Page 1391

          1  activities, whether you had been involved in any

          2  misconduct.  But people were always beaten up, and they

          3  would -- they had to sign statements under duress.

          4       Q.   Now, during the time that you were in Omarska

          5  camp, the detainees in the camp, from your

          6  observations, if you can estimate, how many people were

          7  in the camp?

          8       A.   According to my estimate, there would have

          9  been approximately 3.000 people.

         10       Q.   And these detainees in the camp, what was

         11  their gender?

         12       A.   Sorry.  I didn't understand your question.

         13       Q.   Yes.  The detainees in the camp, what was

         14  their gender?  Men and women?  Men or women?

         15       A.   Oh, the gender, you mean.  Well, they were

         16  men, most of them.  There were about 30 or maybe 35

         17  women.  The rest were men.  They were even children of

         18  15 years of age, perhaps even younger, during the first

         19  days of my stay in the camp.  And there were also

         20  elderly people over the age of 90, for example.

         21       Q.   Now, you indicated that you knew at least

         22  some of the people in the camp.  The people that you

         23  knew in Omarska, what was their ethnicity?

         24       A.   Of the inmates or the guards?

         25       Q.   Of the detainees.

Page 1392

          1       A.   Most of them were Muslims, but there were

          2  quite a few Croats as well.

          3       Q.   What type of clothing were these detainees

          4  wearing while they were held in Omarska?

          5       A.   Some of them were wearing even pyjamas, and

          6  some had normal clothes, jackets and so on.  People

          7  were in slippers or barefoot.  Some were in their

          8  pyjamas, as I say.  But most of them were wearing

          9  normal civilian clothes, like jeans.  There were people

         10  even in suits.

         11       Q.   Could you describe for the Court the general

         12  conditions that existed in the camp while you were held

         13  in Omarska.

         14       A.   The conditions were disastrous.  It is very

         15  hard to describe them.  I don't have the right words to

         16  describe them.  It was horrible.  People walked around

         17  bleeding.  Their wounds were festering.  They had

         18  litres of pus on their backs.  They were badly beaten

         19  up.  Fifty per cent of the people had dysentery.  The

         20  hygiene was nonexistent.  It was a disaster.  It was

         21  like in a toilet which was not functioning.  The toilet

         22  was not functioning.  People were sleeping there.

         23  People were eating there.  I really don't have words to

         24  describe it.  You couldn't even call it a camp.  It was

         25  a disaster.

Page 1393

          1       Q.   Now, you've indicated that people walked

          2  around with wounds that were festering, bleeding, and

          3  had been beaten.  How often did you observe this kind

          4  of abuse on people?

          5       A.   You could see it everywhere, at every

          6  corner.  All of us were like that.  You could hardly

          7  find one single person without wounds.  It would have

          8  been a miracle.  And we had all lost weight, between

          9  20, 30 kilos.  We were like skeletons.  I was weighing

         10  49 kilos when I arrived in Manjaca.  My normal weight

         11  is 75, 76 kilos.

         12       Q.   While you were in the camp, did you yourself

         13  ever observe people being physically abused?

         14       A.   I observed it every day.

         15       Q.   And what type of abuse did you yourself

         16  observe?

         17       A.   Both physical and psychological type of

         18  abuse, but mostly it was physical abuse.

         19       Q.   And how soon after you arrived at the camp

         20  did you begin to see this type of abuse?

         21       A.   During the first days.

         22       Q.   And how soon after you first arrived in the

         23  camp did you begin to see these visible signs of this

         24  physical abuse?

         25       A.   After the first several days of my stay in

Page 1394

          1  the camp.

          2       Q.   Now, you mentioned that you yourself saw

          3  detainees being physically abused.  When, if ever, did

          4  you see any camp personnel intervene and stop that

          5  abuse?

          6       A.   I never saw anyone preventing that.  But

          7  occasionally, from time to time, a guard would help an

          8  individual, take him out of a certain room and

          9  transferred him to another room.  It was a kind of

         10  help.  But it was on an individual basis.  But their

         11  bosses didn't do anything to prevent them from

         12  mistreating the inmates.  It was uncommon in Omarska.

         13       Q.   During your detention in Omarska, how often,

         14  if ever, did you hear sounds as of people in pain?

         15       A.   Every day.  Every day, every hour, non-stop.

         16       Q.   What did you hear?

         17       A.   Screams, moans.  While I was in Mujo's room,

         18  for example, when the interrogations were taking place

         19  upstairs, we had a feeling as if furniture was being

         20  broken.  We heard screams, moans, and sometimes it was

         21  harder for us to listen to those screams than to be

         22  personally exposed to beatings.  People tried not to

         23  hear that.  It was -- it was beyond description.

         24  Terrible noise.

         25       Q.   When you were on the pista, where did you

Page 1395

          1  hear these sounds coming from?

          2       A.   The sounds would come from the restaurant

          3  building, from the "white house" in most of the cases.

          4       Q.   And how loud were these sounds that you have

          5  described?

          6       A.   They were so loud that you could hear them in

          7  every part of the camp: on the pista, at the entrance,

          8  at the entrance to Mujo's room, also coming from the

          9  "white house."  They were so loud that you could hear

         10  them in every part of the camp.  You could even hear

         11  them in room number 15, or coming from room number 15,

         12  coming from the outside.

         13       Q.   Now, in relation to what you observed in the

         14  camp, were you ever present in an area when

         15  individuals, other detainees, were called out of that

         16  area?

         17       A.   I was both present and personally called

         18  out.

         19       Q.   In your presence, how often were people

         20  called out?

         21       A.   Every day, all the time.

         22       Q.   When did this begin?

         23       A.   It began at the beginning of the month of

         24  June.  It started on Monday, on the second or third day

         25  of my stay in the camp.  People were called out from

Page 1396

          1  the very beginning, and this went on until the end.

          2       Q.   Now, these people that were called out, were

          3  any of them returned to the area where you were?

          4       A.   Sometimes they would return, badly beat up,

          5  but many of them didn't come back.  And in many cases

          6  we don't know what happened to those people.  We

          7  haven't heard of them ever since and we don't know

          8  where they are today.

          9       Q.   Now, regarding these people who would be

         10  called out, and when they came back they had been

         11  beaten up, when, if ever, did you observe these people

         12  being given medical care for these injuries?

         13       A.   Never.  No one ever received any medical

         14  care.  We never thought that we would be given medical

         15  care.  There was simply no one to turn to for medical

         16  care, because everybody was involved in beatings.

         17       Q.   Now, among the camp detainees, were there any

         18  doctors?

         19       A.   Yes, there were doctors, Muslim doctors.  But

         20  the only one who dared offer some help was Dr. Esad

         21  Sadikovic.  He helped us as much as he could, either

         22  with his advice, or sometimes, for example, he would

         23  assist Serb soldiers who had been wounded at the front

         24  or wounded in a shooting incident.  So he would be

         25  called to intervene and help them.

Page 1397

          1            And on one or two occasions, he brought some

          2  kind of powder and an injection with one single needle,

          3  and he was making injections with that needle, and

          4  sometimes he would give an injection to the person who

          5  was in a critical state.  But he always had to use the

          6  same needle; he was unable to change it.  And he would

          7  bring some kind of powder from time to time.

          8            As regards other doctors, there were few of

          9  them in the camp, but they didn't dare help anyone.

         10       Q.   This Dr. Sadikovic, is this the same

         11  Dr. Sadikovic you testified about earlier?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   When was the last time you saw Dr. Sadikovic?

         14       A.   In the evening of the 5th of August he was

         15  taken out, and as far as I know -- he had been with me

         16  in Mujo's room all the time.  We slept next to each

         17  other.  And as far as I remember, he was taken out

         18  around 10.00 p.m.  His name was called out and he left

         19  the room through the main entrance, through the door.

         20  And I didn't see anything, but I heard this from Fuad,

         21  who was standing at the door, that he was outside

         22  talking to Prcac for a few minutes.  And after that,

         23  all I know --

         24       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, if I can interrupt, please.

         25  If I could ask you to restrict your testimony to what

Page 1398

          1  you personally observed.

          2       A.   Well, all I know is that on the 5th of August

          3  he was taken out, in the evening, from Mujo's room --

          4       Q.   Thank you.

          5       A.   -- and that's all I know.

          6       Q.   Thank you.  During the time that you were

          7  held in Omarska camp, how often, if ever, did you hear

          8  derogatory terms or derogatory words directed toward

          9  the detainees?

         10       A.   Well, derogatory terms were a normal way of

         11  communication.  They never addressed us in a polite

         12  manner.  They always cursed at us.  They called us

         13  balijas, Turks, Alijas, mother-fuckers, and the like.

         14  This was the normal type of behaviour towards us.

         15       Q.   And the word "balijas," what does that mean?

         16       A.   I don't know.  It's some kind of derogatory

         17  term for Muslims.

         18       Q.   At the times that these derogatory terms

         19  would be directed towards detainees in the camp, did

         20  you ever observe any camp personnel intervene to stop

         21  this?

         22       A.   No, never.

         23       Q.   You indicated in your earlier testimony that

         24  you didn't receive any food until several days after

         25  you arrived at the camp.  Is that correct?

Page 1399

          1       A.   Yes, that's correct.  I got -- I received the

          2  food only on the sixth day.

          3       Q.   Now, after the sixth day, the first day that

          4  you got food, after that, how often were you fed?

          5       A.   After that they formed groups of people,

          6  consisting of 30 people, and they gave us food once a

          7  day.  But during the first 15 or 20 days, not all of

          8  the detainees could be fed, so sometimes we would eat

          9  every other day or every three days.  There wasn't

         10  enough time.  But later on things got a little better,

         11  and we were given food once a day.  But very often the

         12  food was watery and of very poor quality, and we would

         13  have been better off not eating it.  We all suffered

         14  from dysentery.  It was probably because of the water.

         15  It wasn't drinkable water, but we had to drink it, of

         16  course.

         17       Q.   You indicated that people would be taken in

         18  or would be fed in groups of 30.  When, if ever, did

         19  you observe people being abused as they would go to and

         20  back from their meals?

         21       A.   Not only did I observe, I was also beaten

         22  up.  In 90 per cent of the cases, when we went to eat,

         23  we would be beaten, both on the way to the restaurant

         24  and back.  Very often while we were in the corridor,

         25  having left the restaurant, they would pour water on

Page 1400

          1  the floor and they would throw things on the floor so

          2  people would trip down, they would slip, and that they

          3  took the opportunity to beat us.  And this happened

          4  with the same -- with all groups, until they become

          5  exhausted.  Sometimes they would be very tired, so

          6  people would pass unbeaten, they were lucky.  But this

          7  took place every day, every single day.

          8       Q.   And you say sometimes they would become

          9  tired, so groups would pass without being beaten.  Who

         10  do you mean by "they," when you say "they would become

         11  tired"?

         12       A.   Well, the Serb guards.

         13       Q.   And where exactly did you eat your meals?

         14       A.   In the restaurant, in the main hall.  We had

         15  three minutes to run to the restaurant, to eat the food

         16  and leave the restaurant.  Each group had only three

         17  minutes for that.  And of course we would be beaten

         18  during those three minutes.  Some people would be

         19  beaten only once with a club, but some were beaten as

         20  many as ten times, for example, during that time.

         21       Q.   When, if ever, did you see camp personnel

         22  intervene to stop these beatings?

         23       A.   No.  No, they never intervened.  Actually,

         24  they ordered them to do it.  Their bosses ordered them

         25  that.

Page 1401

          1       Q.   Now, you've indicated that you were held in

          2  Mujo's room and there were perhaps 600 people in that

          3  room, is that correct, on this first night that you

          4  were in the room?

          5       A.   That night, according to my estimate, there

          6  were more than 1.000 people in that room, and on the

          7  next morning, because the situation was horrible, half

          8  of the people were transferred to the pista, involving

          9  myself, and the other half remained in that room.  But

         10  it was still crowded.

         11       Q.   Now, when you went back to Mujo's room later,

         12  how many people were in that room?

         13       A.   There were about 600 or 700 people.

         14       Q.   What were the conditions like in that room

         15  with all of those people in the room?  How much space

         16  did you have in that room to move about?

         17       A.   The space we had was not enough for all of us

         18  to lie on our backs.  We all had to lie on one side so

         19  that everybody would have some room to lie down.

         20       Q.   While you were in room 15, in the hangar, how

         21  many people were in that room?

         22       A.   I think between 400 and 450.

         23       Q.   And how much space did you have in that room

         24  while you were there?

         25       A.   Well, the situation was more or less the same

Page 1402

          1  as in Mujo's room.

          2       Q.   Now, you also indicated for a short period of

          3  time you were held in a room you called the garage.

          4  How many people were in that room?

          5       A.   In that room, when I was there, there were up

          6  to 180 people, and literally we didn't have the

          7  possibility -- we didn't have enough room to raise our

          8  hand, raise our arms.  Once you did that, you no longer

          9  had any room left to put it down.  I spent one or two

         10  nights and two days there.  We were trying to make as

         11  much room for ourselves as possible, but it was

         12  horrible.  We stuck to each other.  Luckily, the window

         13  was broken so we could get some air.  Otherwise, we

         14  would have all suffocated.

         15            At the beginning, there were over 200 people

         16  in that room, when they brought people from Kozarac,

         17  during the first days of the camp.  There were even

         18  dead people there.  At one point, they opened fire

         19  through the metal door in the garage, and as a result

         20  of that some people died and were wounded.

         21       Q.   Were those people removed from the room after

         22  they died and were wounded?

         23       A.   In due course, but not straight away.

         24       Q.   While you were --

         25       A.   Those who were wounded were not, but those

Page 1403

          1  who were dead were carried out afterwards.

          2       Q.   While you were in this camp, from the 30th of

          3  May until early August, what was the smell in this

          4  camp?

          5       A.   Dreadful.  There was a terrible stench in all

          6  the premises, in all parts of the camp.  We all had

          7  lice.  We were unshaven, hungry.  We were like

          8  skeletons.  It was really horrific.

          9       Q.   Now, you've mentioned several times about

         10  abuse that occurred to you while you were in the camp.

         11  How often were you abused while you were in --

         12  physically abused while you were in Omarska camp?

         13       A.   I was called out three times on an individual

         14  basis, but I was frequently one of a group that was

         15  physically mistreated.  But three times I personally

         16  was called out.

         17       Q.   And then you say that you were frequently

         18  part of a group that was abused.  When you were abused

         19  as a part of this group, what was done to you?

         20       A.   Usually when we would go for meals, these

         21  things would happen.  Sometimes they would run into

         22  Mujo's room and beat a couple of people and kick them,

         23  and then they would go out, for no reason.  We didn't

         24  know why we had been beaten.  They just felt like it.

         25  They would come in and beat us up a little.  If you

Page 1404

          1  were close to the door, you would have a greater chance

          2  of being hit, so we avoided being closer to the door,

          3  precisely because of these random stormings by

          4  individuals.

          5       Q.   And when did this type of abuse of the group

          6  begin?  How long after you had been in the camp?

          7       A.   Very soon after we arrived, after five or six

          8  days, these beatings started.  Actually, at the

          9  interrogation, the beatings started the same day, that

         10  is, on Monday.  They started to force people to confess

         11  through physical force.

         12       Q.   Now, you've talked about three separate

         13  occasions where you were called out, you were singled

         14  out to be called out, and I'd like to ask you some

         15  questions about those occasions.

         16            Now, on the first occasion that that

         17  occurred, when did that happen?  How long had you been

         18  in the camp?

         19       A.   Maybe 10 or 11 days.

         20       Q.   Was this while you were still being held on

         21  the pista?

         22       A.   Yes, we were at the pista, but I think it

         23  started raining, so we entered the restaurant itself.

         24  They took us inside, and then a man came in olive-grey

         25  uniform.  He had a white military police belt, a

Page 1405

          1  truncheon and a pistol.  He called me out by first and

          2  last name.  I hadn't known him from before.  I later

          3  learnt that his name was Dragan.  I learned this from

          4  Nedjo, the owner of the Europa Restaurant in Omarska.

          5  He was his nephew, actually.

          6       Q.   Did you recognise this Dragan as a regular

          7  guard in the camp?

          8       A.   No.  No.  He came from the outside.  He

          9  entered privately, as a private individual.

         10       Q.   What happened, then, after he called you

         11  outside?

         12       A.   He took me out.  I thought he was taking me

         13  for interrogation.  However, he took me outside this

         14  door of the restaurant.  And then I saw Janjic, Nikica

         15  Janjic, a man I had known from before in Prijedor.  I

         16  had a conflict with him a year and a half before I

         17  reached the camp.  And I stopped, and he said, "You see

         18  how sometimes have changed?  I'm going to slit your

         19  throat tonight."

         20       Q.   Who said that?

         21       A.   Nikica Janjic.

         22       Q.   Where were you when he told you this?  What

         23  area of the camp were you?

         24       A.   I was -- when he said that to me, I was at

         25  the doorway, at the main door of the restaurant.

Page 1406

          1       Q.   Were you inside the restaurant or outside?

          2       A.   Just in front of the entrance, maybe a metre

          3  or two away from the building.

          4       Q.   Now, after he told you he was going to "slit

          5  your throat tonight," what happened then?

          6       A.   Then Dragan said, "Go back.  We'll come to

          7  pick you up in half an hour."  So I went back inside,

          8  into the restaurant.  I said goodbye to my friends and

          9  acquaintances.  I told them who had come and what he

         10  had said.  And I believed that he would kill me,

         11  actually that he would slaughter me.

         12       Q.   What happened then?

         13       A.   What happened was that they came half an hour

         14  later.  Again Dragan came inside; he called my name.  I

         15  went outside, and as I was going out, I saw (redacted)

         16  (redacted) following me.  And at that very moment as I

         17  came out, Dragan, as far as I can remember, started

         18  hitting me with a stick on the head and the neck, and

         19  he said that we should go to the "white house".

         20       Q.   Now, you mentioned --

         21       A.   And then (redacted) came running after me.

         22       Q.   If we could stop there for just a moment.

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis.

         24            MS. HOLLIS:  Yes, Your Honour.

         25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me

Page 1407

          1  for interrupting you for a moment, but I should like to

          2  say two things.  First, you have been examining this

          3  witness for more or less two hours.  You announced that

          4  it would take two hours.  Perhaps you could link up

          5  your questions a little.  We plan to make a break at a

          6  quarter to one.

          7            And I take advantage of this interruption to

          8  say something else.  The witness spoke at length about

          9  nicknames, Krkan, Krle, Brk, and others.  Perhaps we

         10  should find out from the witness the proper names,

         11  because as you know, this is a public hearing and the

         12  public may not know the link between the nickname and

         13  the proper names.  I'm sure you will be able to do

         14  this, as I have asked you to.  Thank you.

         15            MS. HOLLIS:  I will certainly ask that of the

         16  witness, Your Honour.

         17       Q.   You mentioned seeing a person you called

         18  (redacted).  Who was he?

         19       A.   He was a showman, and a poet, and a

         20  well-known figure in town.

         21       Q.   And had you known him prior to coming to the

         22  camp?

         23       A.   Yes.  I have known him all my life.

         24       Q.   And what is his ethnicity?

         25       A.   Muslim.

Page 1408

          1       Q.   Now, you indicated that you were taken to the

          2  "white house", and as you were taken there, you were

          3  being beaten.  What happened when you arrived at the

          4  "white house"?

          5       A.   When we arrived at the "white house", I was

          6  put into the second room to the right.  Dragan followed

          7  me and Nikica Janjic, (redacted),

          8  and Asif Kapetanovic joined us.  The two of them were

          9  in the second room to the left.  They physically

         10  mistreated me, that is, Dragan and Nikica Janjic,

         11  whereas the other two were mistreated, as I saw later,

         12  that Zigic was there, Dusko Knezovic, known as Duca,

         13  and Saponja, Slavko Saponja's son.  I think his name is

         14  Dragan.  He's a handball player from Prijedor.  We used

         15  to be friends.  Saponja would occasionally come into

         16  this room on the right-hand side to join in on the

         17  physical mistreatment against me.

         18            When it stopped, we went out of the "white

         19  house".  Zigic told us to bend down and to lap water

         20  like dogs, which we all did.  And then afterwards they

         21  said that we should head towards the restaurant.

         22            At that moment, these three went on and

         23  Dragan took me back into the "white house" and hit me a

         24  couple of more times and shoved me into the first room

         25  to the left.

Page 1409

          1       Q.   Now, you have indicated that Zigic, Dusko

          2  Knezovic and Saponja also were involved in this abuse.

          3  How did you know Zigic?

          4       A.   I recognised Zigic because -- I didn't know

          5  him well before the war, but I came to know him well

          6  when, some 15 days before the camps were established,

          7  he mistreated (redacted) and fired shots round his

          8  feet.  I was some 10 or 15 metres away watching him.

          9  That is when I learnt his identity.  And there were

         10  rumours already in town that he was going around

         11  mistreating people.  They had a van which they drove

         12  around in and mistreated citizens from.

         13       Q.   Now, regarding Dusko Knezovic, how did you

         14  know him?

         15       A.   I heard in the camp his name, so I don't know

         16  him from before the war.

         17       Q.   And you have indicated that Saponja was a

         18  handball player.  How did you know him?

         19       A.   Yes.  I know him more or less from birth.

         20  He's a little younger than me.  Our parents were

         21  friends, house friends, and his parents' wedding took

         22  place in my family home because he and my father were

         23  friends.  They didn't have very good accommodation when

         24  they moved to Prijedor, so my father prepared the

         25  wedding in my house, in our house, so that we know each

Page 1410

          1  other all our lives.  We used to meet and socialise.

          2       Q.   What was your physical condition after this

          3  beating you received in the "white house"?

          4       A.   My physical condition was such that a couple

          5  of hours later, I really started feeling the pain.  I

          6  simply couldn't move.  My head was all swollen.  It was

          7  black and blue, covered in blood.  My legs were beaten

          8  up, my back.  I had received at least a couple of

          9  hundred blows on my neck and head.  So that when they

         10  shoved me into this first room to the left, where

         11  apparently the boys who had attacked Prijedor were

         12  detained, there were about ten of them, and they were

         13  in the same condition as I was, they couldn't move.

         14            And then the guard came later on, it was

         15  nighttime, he switched on his lamp and he said,

         16  "Slavko, you mother-fucker, there are black people in

         17  your group."  I saw that he was referring to me.  And

         18  if he did refer to me, I was not black.  This was a

         19  private settling of accounts.  I have nothing to do

         20  with these guys.  I don't belong to their group.

         21            Then he came round and whispered to me,

         22  "Surely, how could they do such a thing to someone for

         23  nothing, for no reason?"  So I saw that he was

         24  sincere.  I told him who I was, and later on I asked

         25  him whether he could take me back to the pista because

Page 1411

          1  I belonged to that group, and he said he would try but

          2  that he couldn't promise anything.

          3            And then he did come in the morning.  He took

          4  me out and took me to the hangar, to wash up a little,

          5  and then he took me back to the pista.  And at the

          6  pista, none of my friends or relatives could recognise

          7  me.  My head was swollen like this [indicates], and I

          8  was black, as black as this ELMO here.

          9       Q.   Now, you mentioned that this room that you

         10  were thrown into, this room on the left, that there

         11  were several other men in that room, and you also

         12  mentioned that the guard looking into the room said

         13  something to a person called Slavko.  Who is this

         14  Slavko that you testified about?

         15       A.   Slavko is a friend of mine from early

         16  childhood.  We went to elementary school together.  He

         17  was a private entrepreneur.  We would socialise often.

         18  He was a Croat by ethnicity.  The whole town knew him.

         19  He was charged with having led the attack on Prijedor,

         20  if ever there was one.  Where he was captured, I don't

         21  know.  He had come a couple of days before I entered

         22  the "white house", this room where he was in.  He was

         23  walking, he was on his feet.  I saw him when he arrived

         24  that day.  And when I found him in this room, he didn't

         25  know what he was saying.  He was dazed, he

Page 1412

          1  was hallucinating.  One expected him to pass away at

          2  any moment.

          3       Q.   And did you notice any physical bruising or

          4  other injuries on him?

          5       A.   There were ten or so of them inside.  All of

          6  them had clearly been beaten up, and they could hardly

          7  walk because they couldn't move even in a lying

          8  position.

          9       Q.   What was Slavko's last name?

         10       A.   Slavko Ecimovic, known as Ecim.

         11       Q.   Now, during this first incident, during the

         12  beatings that you described in this first incident, did

         13  any camp personnel intervene to stop these beatings?

         14       A.   No, no one ever.

         15       Q.   Now, you indicated there were three separate

         16  times you were called out for beatings.  The second

         17  time you were called out, how soon was that after the

         18  first time?

         19       A.   Two days later.

         20       Q.   And at the time you were called out for this

         21  beating, where were you being held?

         22       A.   At that time, we had left number 15 and we

         23  were on the grass next to the "white house".  We were

         24  sitting there, and this Koka was making some sort of a

         25  list of the detainees in number 15, taking down their

Page 1413

          1  names and nicknames.  Why they needed the list, I don't

          2  know.  I was in that group just then, the group from

          3  number 15.

          4       Q.   Now, as you were in this group by the "white

          5  house" and Koka was taking down these names, who, if

          6  any, of the camp personnel did you see?

          7       A.   Yes.  I saw, next to the "white house", a

          8  guard with the nickname Ckalja near the entrance, and

          9  at the other corner, Kvocka was standing.  He was the

         10  leader, commander.

         11       Q.   And when you saw Kvocka there, what was he

         12  doing?

         13       A.   Nothing.  He was just standing there.  And

         14  when I noticed Kvocka, I also saw Nikica Janjic coming

         15  towards the "white house" and approaching Kvocka.

         16       Q.   Now, is this the same Nikica Janjic you have

         17  testified about previously?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   And what did you observe then?

         20       A.   I observed them talking and that they were

         21  exchanging something.  Whether it was money or paper, I

         22  cannot tell for sure, but it wasn't an object.  It was

         23  something like a piece of paper that they were

         24  exchanging or money.

         25       Q.   And when you say that you saw them talking

Page 1414

          1  and they were exchanging something, to whom are you

          2  referring?

          3       A.   I'm referring to Kvocka, the commander, and

          4  Nikica Janjic.

          5       Q.   Now, what happened after that?

          6       A.   Then Nikica headed towards the group where I

          7  was, and he said, "Beganovic, come on, get up."  I got

          8  up and I approached the guard nicknamed Ckalja, and I

          9  said, "I don't want to go to the 'white house'.  Look

         10  what he did to me two days ago, and he has threatened

         11  to slaughter me.  He wants to kill me, and I'm not

         12  going inside."  And Ckalja said that he guaranteed that

         13  he would not physically mistreat me, that I should just

         14  go inside for a talk.  So what could I do?  I went in.

         15            As soon as I got in, this same Nikica Janjic

         16  started hitting me.  Ckalja didn't follow us inside; he

         17  stayed outside probably.  And then another small

         18  soldier, short, he was short with long hair and a

         19  rather oversized coat on him, and he was standing in

         20  the doorway with an automatic rifle, I suppose so that

         21  I shouldn't run out.  And Nikica immediately started

         22  hitting me with the handle of his pistol -- it was a

         23  Colt, I remember -- on the head, so that my whole head

         24  was beaten up.  I received a large number of blows, and

         25  my skull cracked in a number of places, and then he

Page 1415

          1  kicked me as well.  And then he suddenly stopped.  I

          2  said to him, it would be better for him to take that

          3  pistol and kill me or to leave me alone, why doesn't he

          4  choose one of the two.  And he said that he had

          5  intended to kill me but that he had changed his mind

          6  and that he wouldn't kill me.  Then I said, "Well,

          7  leave me alone, then, if you're not going to kill me.

          8  Don't come to the camp anymore to seek your revenge."

          9  I said that I didn't take it against him, let things

         10  end there, and after the war ended, there would be no

         11  problems between us, I said, when this situation blows

         12  over.  He said, "You see what Kvocka gave me and where

         13  you plan to go."  And he took out a piece of paper that

         14  said, "Emir Beganovic, kop 2."  He took this paper back

         15  and put it in his pocket, but he said, "My mother has

         16  sworn me not to kill you, and that is why I've changed

         17  my mind."

         18            Then I asked him to give me some water, and

         19  he sent this soldier to bring a can of water.  He did.

         20  I washed up.  He gave me a cigarette to light.  We

         21  stayed on and talked a little while.  And then I asked

         22  him for a couple more cigarettes for later.  He gave

         23  them to me.  And on the way out, we shook hands and

         24  said goodbye.  Everybody could see this.  He went off,

         25  and he kept his word; he didn't come back again.

Page 1416

          1       Q.   Now, you've indicated that at some point he

          2  handed you -- he reached in his pocket and handed you

          3  or showed you a note or showed you something, and he

          4  said, "See what Kvocka gave me and where you are to

          5  go," and the note said "kop 2".  What is "kop 2"?

          6       A.   He said -- as far as I know, "kop 2" are pits

          7  where iron ore was mined, because Omarska was an iron

          8  ore mine.  And these are very large pits, very deep, in

          9  which -- as far as I know, they were filled with water,

         10  and the rumour in the camp was that the dead were being

         11  thrown into those pits.

         12       Q.   Now, you indicate that after this incident,

         13  Janjic did not beat you again.  I'm going to move on to

         14  the third incident, but I believe we're going to have a

         15  pause before the third incident.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  I had

         17  hoped to finish the examination-in-chief, and that is

         18  why I didn't interrupt earlier on.

         19            Perhaps, Witness, we're going to ask you to

         20  leave the courtroom in the company of the usher for a

         21  break.  The break will, in principle, last 30 minutes.

         22                 [The witness withdrew]

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

         24  how much more time do you need, please, to finish the

         25  examination-in-chief?

Page 1417

          1            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honour, this witness will

          2  speak about one more specific incident of beating that

          3  occurred in the camp.  The witness will also testify

          4  about when he left the camp.  And then the witness will

          5  testify about events that occurred as he was taken from

          6  that camp to another camp, how long he was in that

          7  camp, where he was taken from there.  And then also

          8  evidence about the effects of the camp on him and his

          9  family and the effects of being forcibly removed from

         10  the Prijedor area on him and his family.  So we have

         11  several other areas to cover.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you

         13  give us a rough estimate of the amount of time you

         14  need?

         15            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honour, I believe that it

         16  may take us another 45 minutes to an hour for that.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

         18  case, we cannot begin with the cross-examination

         19  today.  It will be rather difficult, I think.

         20            MS. HOLLIS:  It may go quicker, Your Honour,

         21  but that would be my estimate.  Again, Your Honour, the

         22  information at the beginning and the end is information

         23  that we are eliciting in lieu of the procedure we

         24  discussed yesterday.

         25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Once we

Page 1418

          1  emerge from this provisional stage, can we trust your

          2  estimates for witnesses, because you had planned two

          3  hours and it will be close to four hours.  So I'm

          4  asking whether all the estimates you have given us, can

          5  we rely on them for the future or not?

          6            MS. HOLLIS:  Well, Your Honour, I must say,

          7  in fairness, that these are estimates, that we cannot

          8  tell you that this is the length of the examination.

          9  So even if we confine ourselves to what happened in the

         10  camp, which we believe we cannot, it would be an

         11  estimate.  It could go longer.  So in candor to the

         12  Court and in fairness to the Prosecution, no, we could

         13  not promise you that it would be that amount of time.

         14  Those are estimates.  I believe we've indicated all

         15  along those are estimates.  They were our best

         16  estimates, but I would be remiss to try to guarantee

         17  you that those are absolutely accurate.

         18            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

         19  [In English] I just noted some repetitions in what he

         20  said.  Clearly, things which we already understood were

         21  repeated.  So perhaps you can avoid that sometimes.

         22            MS. HOLLIS:  If I can do so, Your Honour, I

         23  will.  Perhaps that will mean interrupting the

         24  witness.  I will attempt to do that.

         25            But I must point out, Your Honours, that in

Page 1419

          1  the Prosecution's estimation, this is all relevant

          2  evidence in this case.  This is the first witness that

          3  you are hearing, and we would submit that this is not

          4  unduly long, given all the experiences that this

          5  witness had in the camp and the information that he has

          6  about this camp.

          7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  We

          8  understand that being the first witness, it can go on a

          9  little longer.  But we do expect you to speed up a

         10  little afterwards.

         11            Excuse me, Mr. Fila.  I'm going to give you

         12  the floor, but I should like to address myself to

         13  Mr. Simic in order to learn whether you have any idea

         14  as to the total amount of time -- I'm talking to

         15  Mr. Krstan Simic, how much time, more or less, you

         16  need.  Are you in a position to tell us how much time

         17  you will need for the cross-examination?

         18            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

         19  we agreed yesterday that the Defence, after the

         20  examination-in-chief, will announce the order in which

         21  it will cross-examine and give a rough estimate of the

         22  time required.  But as the direct has still not ended,

         23  and especially in view of the fact that certain things

         24  are cropping up for the first time that were never

         25  mentioned in the statement, in the prior statement, nor

Page 1420

          1  in the transcript from the Tadic case, the Defence will

          2  have to have a short consultation regarding the order

          3  and the time needed.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,

          5  you wanted to say something.

          6            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

          7  Ms. Hollis earlier said that she was afraid that the

          8  Defence might put the same question five times to a

          9  witness.  Ms. Hollis has asked five times whether the

         10  administration, the personnel of the camp, prevented

         11  anyone from committing the act under Article 5 of the

         12  Statute, and each time the answer was, "No."  I'm not

         13  criticising anyone, but this question could have been

         14  put once.  "During your stay in the camp, did anyone of

         15  the camp administration prohibit such behaviour?"  The

         16  answer would have been, "No," and that would have been

         17  the end of it.  That is one point.

         18            A second point.  Throughout the testimony of

         19  Mr. Beganovic so far, Krkan was never mentioned in the

         20  Tadic case or in the statements that we have received.

         21  The Defence agreement was that the clients that are not

         22  mentioned, that their attorneys should not

         23  cross-examine the witness, which would mean the Defence

         24  attorney of Kos, myself, or Mr. Simic would have had no

         25  questions for this witness, only Krstan Simic and

Page 1421

          1  Mr. Tosic would have cross-examined.  We have now heard

          2  three additional names in the testimony, so now we have

          3  to cross-examine.  Thank you, Your Honour.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

          5  Mr. Fila.  Regarding the question that you have

          6  mentioned, I personally share that view.  But first I

          7  will give Ms. Hollis an opportunity to respond.

          8            MS. HOLLIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  In

          9  regard to the specific repetitions that were raised by

         10  Defence counsel, the questions at the beginning were

         11  whether he observed that, in general, as to any of

         12  these situations, and then the later questions were

         13  asked to his specific beatings, did anyone intervene to

         14  stop them.  If Your Honours are satisfied that based on

         15  the current evidence it is clear that no one intervened

         16  to stop any of this, we will stop asking the question.

         17  But the character of the questions were different, and

         18  we believe that that is a significant piece of

         19  information for Your Honours to have.  That is why the

         20  questions were phrased that way; that is why we

         21  continued to ask the questions.

         22            In regard to the names that were raised,

         23  there was one accused in the Tadic case, and that's

         24  what that case, for the most part, focused on.  It is

         25  very clear that there are several accused, none of them

Page 1422

          1  Tadic, in this case, and that's what this case is

          2  focusing on.

          3            THE INTERPRETER:  Could I ask counsel to slow

          4  down, please.

          5            MS. HOLLIS:  Therefore, these questions are

          6  relevant in this case that we submit were not asked and

          7  potentially would not have been necessarily relevant in

          8  the Tadic case.  So to take the Tadic transcript and

          9  expect the evidence to be all of the same, we submit,

         10  would not be accurate because we have different

         11  accused, we have different allegations about those

         12  accused.  That's why you are hearing things today that

         13  would not have been found in the Tadic case.

         14            In regard to prior statements, I'd like to

         15  point out something that is perhaps a very significant

         16  difference.  We do not, in the Office of the

         17  Prosecutor, take a statement using a procedure like an

         18  investigating judge where we sit down for a case and

         19  take a comprehensive statement for that case.  The

         20  statements that we take and have taken, and many of

         21  these in this case were taken in 1994, 1995, are

         22  investigative, and they are general in nature.  They

         23  are not aimed at a specific trial.  So they are not

         24  going to be matters -- they are not going to be as

         25  comprehensive as a system would be if an investigating

Page 1423

          1  judge were used to take a statement about a specific

          2  case and a specifying charge.  That is the reason that

          3  you're not going to find all of this information in

          4  prior statements.  It's simply the practice of this

          5  Tribunal compared to other jurisdictions.

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think the

          7  question of repetition of the particular question

          8  mentioned by Fila, did anyone prevent anyone from

          9  doing, it's true that it was repetitious.  I understand

         10  that you described various types of mistreatments, and

         11  each time you put the same question.  But it is true,

         12  you could have described all the cases of mistreatment,

         13  and at the end, referring to all those mistreatments,

         14  "Did anyone try to prevent it?"  But that's an

         15  option.  I understand your point.  I understand it as

         16  being your strategy, and after all, I cannot interfere

         17  with the strategy of the Prosecution or the Defence.

         18  But from the standpoint of efficiency, I think it could

         19  have been done in a different manner.  But I cannot

         20  judge you on that.

         21            Another question.  It is true that there are

         22  names that do not appear in the transcript, but one

         23  must bear in mind that this is the idea of new

         24  questions.  We have referred to that.  It applies to

         25  both the Prosecution and the Defence.  So the

Page 1424

          1  examination-in-chief in the Tadic case was focused on

          2  one person, whereas the witness knew a whole spectrum

          3  of other people whom he didn't mention then, but he is

          4  mentioning them now.  And this is a new question which,

          5  in my opinion, is justified both for the Defence and

          6  for the Prosecution.  So you will have the opportunity

          7  to cross-examine.  Otherwise, the Prosecution would be

          8  prevented from presenting its case.  I think the

          9  Prosecutor must present its case and the Defence must

         10  respond.

         11            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Obviously, there

         12  must be a misunderstanding.  I truly apologise to

         13  Ms. Hollis if she misunderstood me.  I am not

         14  criticising her for those names having cropped up.  I'm

         15  just saying that we will have to change our agreement

         16  and the duration of the cross-examination.  So, please,

         17  if that is your impression, I do apologise,

         18  Ms. Hollis.

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We cannot

         20  continue with this debate because we have to have a

         21  break.  But, very well, Mr. Simic, what is the point of

         22  your intervention?

         23            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

         24  shall be very brief.  I have drawn attention to a fact

         25  that in the statement of the witness, which truly was

Page 1425

          1  taken in 1994, as Ms. Hollis said, that that statement

          2  is 20 pages long, and this case had not been started.

          3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Anyway, we

          4  are all intelligent people and we know what we are

          5  talking about.  And I think the intelligent thing to do

          6  is to have a break.  Otherwise, we won't be able to

          7  function properly.  And this also applies to the

          8  interpreters.  We are going to have a half-hour break,

          9  because I think we should change a little bit the

         10  rhythm, because if we have a break that is shorter than

         11  half an hour, then the accused don't have a break.  And

         12  out of respect for the rights of the accused, I think

         13  it would be best to have two half-hour breaks in the

         14  course of the session for them to leave, because they

         15  are entitled to following the debates and they must be

         16  in a condition to do so.

         17            So we're having a 30-minute break, and,

         18  Ms. Hollis, I beg you to try and finish the

         19  examination-in-chief at least today.  I know you're

         20  going to try.  So half an hour, which means we will

         21  resume at 1.40.

         22                 --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m.

         23                 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

         24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

         25  seated.

Page 1426

          1            The witness is not here yet, Mr. Dubuisson.

          2  What's happening?

          3            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] He's coming.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

          5            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honours, while we wait for

          6  the witness, we would like to reiterate that the

          7  Prosecution certainly is sensitive to the very

          8  legitimate needs to expeditiously move through these

          9  witnesses, and we will do everything that we can to

         10  ensure that we both put on the relevant evidence that

         11  we feel we need but also take all possible steps to

         12  expedite the presentation of evidence.

         13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

         14  Ms. Hollis.  We take note of your goodwill, and then we

         15  will see about how it works.

         16                 [The witness entered court]

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

         18  you may now continue.

         19            MS. HOLLIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         20       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, before the break we were about

         21  to move on to the third incident when you were called

         22  out and beaten.  Regarding this third incident, how

         23  many days after your second beating did this occur?

         24       A.   I think that it was, again, two days later.

         25       Q.   At the time of this third incident, where

Page 1427

          1  were you being held?

          2       A.   In room 15.

          3       Q.   Now, what happened when you were called out

          4  this third time?

          5       A.   I heard that my name was being called out.  I

          6  don't know who it was.  When I got to the door, I saw

          7  the same Dragan who was involved in the first beating.

          8       Q.   What happened after you came out the door and

          9  saw Dragan?

         10       A.   My head was bleeding and one of the detainees

         11  had put a piece of white cloth on my head in order to

         12  try and stop the bleeding.  I don't know exactly what

         13  it was.  It was a kind of T-shirt, white in colour.

         14  And he told me, "Well, you're not a hodza.  Why do you

         15  need this white cloth on your head?"  I didn't say

         16  anything, and then he told me to come down.  And as I

         17  was passing by him, he started beating me again, and

         18  again with a truncheon, on my back, on my head, on the

         19  upper part of my body.

         20       Q.   Now, you indicate he said to you, "You're not

         21  a hodza."  What is a hodza?

         22       A.   A hodza is a Muslim priest.

         23       Q.   When he said to you, "You're not a hodza" and

         24  he mentioned the bandage on your head, what was he

         25  referring to?  What did that mean?

Page 1428

          1       A.   I don't know.  He was probably trying to

          2  provoke me, to insult me.

          3       Q.   What happened after that?  You indicated that

          4  he had started beating you again.

          5       A.   Yes, he started beating me again, and he

          6  pushed me to the lower part of the hangar.

          7       Q.   And by "the lower part", do you mean the

          8  ground floor?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   What happened once he had pushed you to this

         11  lower part of --

         12       A.   A group of Serb soldiers were there.  They

         13  were all in uniform, in multicoloured uniform.  There

         14  were five or six of them.  And he pushed me towards

         15  them and they all started beating me.  They took it out

         16  on me.  I was the only detainee there.  I didn't notice

         17  anyone else.  So all of them beat me.  At one point

         18  there was some kind of pillars or sticks which were

         19  marking the area.  I think that they were metal.  I

         20  fell down at one point, near those pillars, and I

         21  couldn't get up anymore.  Then one soldier, I don't

         22  remember which one, took me by my feet and he lifted me

         23  up like this [indicates], and another soldier took a

         24  metal cable and they hanged me by my feet with this

         25  metal cable.

Page 1429

          1            I don't know how much time I spent hanging

          2  like this, I couldn't tell you exactly, but it couldn't

          3  have been very long.  At one point, my feet slid out

          4  from my sneakers and out of the cable noose.  Dragan

          5  approached me at that moment and he said, "Do you know

          6  me?  Do you know who I am?"  I said that I didn't know

          7  him, that I didn't see him before in my life, that I

          8  didn't know who he was, where he was from.  And then he

          9  told his -- these other soldiers, "Take this one away

         10  and bring me Senad Muslimovic."

         11       Q.   Now, when he asked you if you knew him and

         12  you said you did not, you had never seen him before,

         13  why did you say that?

         14       A.   I said that simply because in the camp we all

         15  knew that they never left any witnesses alive.  So if

         16  you knew someone, you could be killed.  Whoever was

         17  known to them -- whoever knew them by name and surname

         18  would not be spared.  They were killing witnesses; they

         19  didn't want to have them say later on who they were.

         20  If I had told him that I knew him, he would have

         21  probably killed me.

         22       Q.   Now, you indicated that Dragan was engaging

         23  in this beating with several other individuals.  Did

         24  you recognise any of those other individuals as regular

         25  camp personnel at Omarska?

Page 1430

          1       A.   There was no one from the regular camp

          2  personnel.  They were all from the outside, from the

          3  area outside the camp.  I knew some of them; I didn't

          4  know others.  But there was no one from the camp

          5  personnel there.

          6       Q.   Now, when Dragan said, "Take this one away

          7  and bring me Senad Muslimovic," what happened with you?

          8       A.   I started towards the stairway but my

          9  sneakers were left behind, and Dragan told me to go

         10  back and fetch my sneakers.  I told him I didn't need

         11  them, and he said, "It's better for you to go back.

         12  You don't want me to bring them for you."  So that was

         13  all I could do.  I went back and they started beating

         14  me again.

         15            But after a while I managed to muster some

         16  force and went back upstairs.  I went to room 15, to

         17  the spot where I used to lie, and when I reached that

         18  spot I fainted.

         19       Q.   Now, after this third beating, were you able

         20  to continue to go out each day to get food?

         21       A.   No.  For a while I couldn't move.  I didn't

         22  leave room number 15; I never once went for food.  I

         23  spent seven or eight days like that.  I was unable to

         24  walk.  And then after a while I managed to make several

         25  steps.  People would carry me to the toilet, but I

Page 1431

          1  couldn't actually go to the toilet.  I had not been to

          2  the toilet for about 30 days.

          3       Q.   Now, I'd like to direct your attention to the

          4  last day that you were in Omarska, the day that you

          5  were taken from Omarska.  Now, on that day when you

          6  were taken from Omarska, how many people were taken

          7  with you from Omarska?

          8       A.   Half of the camp was taken, between 1.300 and

          9  1.500 people.

         10       Q.   Now, on that day, the day that you were taken

         11  from Omarska, when you were being brought out to be

         12  taken away, how did that happen?  How was that carried

         13  out by the camp personnel?

         14       A.   Could you please repeat your question?

         15       Q.   Certainly.  What was the procedure that was

         16  used to sort you prisoners out and then to send you

         17  from Omarska camp?

         18       A.   I don't know exactly on the basis of what

         19  they selected people.  They had some lists.  They would

         20  come with lists and read out names.  Some people, as I

         21  later heard, went to Trnopolje.  Those who went to

         22  Trnopolje were taken to the pista.  And the rest of us,

         23  we were lined up in front of Mujo's room.  We were

         24  supposed to be taken somewhere, and at that time I

         25  didn't know where.

Page 1432

          1       Q.   Now, at the time that you were outside in the

          2  area of Mujo's room, did you recognise any camp

          3  personnel present?

          4       A.   All of them were there.  There was some

          5  confusion concerning the selection of detainees, so

          6  they all moved around, walked around the area.

          7       Q.   Who did you recognise?  What were the names

          8  of some of the people you recognised?

          9       A.   At this moment I couldn't tell you precisely

         10  who it was who read out the names from a list.  There

         11  were a few of them.  One would begin reading the names

         12  from a list and the other one would come to continue.

         13  It's very difficult for me to remember exactly who it

         14  was after such a long time.  But those were the guards

         15  who had been in the camp all the time, they were the

         16  ones who brought the lists and read out the names.

         17       Q.   Now, where were you taken from Omarska?

         18       A.   From Omarska I was taken to Manjaca, to the

         19  camp in Manjaca.

         20       Q.   Where was Manjaca?  What municipality is that

         21  located in, if you know?

         22       A.   I think it belongs to the Banja Luka

         23  municipality.

         24       Q.   How were you transported to Manjaca?

         25       A.   The situation was very chaotic concerning the

Page 1433

          1  buses.  At the beginning we had to bend our heads down

          2  so as not to look out.  But the column was stopped very

          3  soon and we realised that we were moving in the

          4  direction of Banja Luka, travelling along the

          5  Prijedor-Banja Luka road.

          6            Then they started beating us and they told us

          7  that we should all kneel down and crawl under the

          8  seats.  So there were, I don't know how many seats, but

          9  there was an equal number of detainees, and we had to

         10  crawl under the seats.  This is how I spent the night

         11  until the next morning, when we got off the bus in

         12  Manjaca.  I remained in that position all the time.  It

         13  is very difficult for me today to understand how I was

         14  able to fit in such a small space.  But that's how it

         15  happened.

         16       Q.   And how long were you held at this Manjaca

         17  camp?

         18       A.   I was there from the 7th of August until the

         19  13th of December, 1992.

         20       Q.   From Manjaca, where were you taken?

         21       A.   From Manjaca I was taken to the Batkovic

         22  camp.

         23       Q.   What part of Bosnia was the Batkovic camp in,

         24  if you know?

         25       A.   It is in the area of Semberija, in the

Page 1434

          1  Bijeljina municipality.

          2       Q.   How long were you held in the Batkovic camp?

          3       A.   In the Batkovic camp, I was held from the

          4  13th of December, 1992 until the 4th of March, 1993.

          5       Q.   Where did you go from there?

          6       A.   We were then exchanged in the municipality of

          7  Rahic, in the municipality of Brcko, and this is where

          8  I crossed over to what is called today the Federation.

          9       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, during your earlier testimony,

         10  you referred to several camp personnel by nicknames,

         11  for example, Krkan.  Do you know, or did you know

         12  Krkan's proper name?

         13       A.   No.

         14       Q.   You also referred to Krle.  Did you know

         15  Krle's proper name?

         16       A.   Mladjo Radic is Krkan.  Krle is Milojica Kos

         17  and Krkan is Mladjo Radic.  And Kvocka, his name is

         18  Miroslav.  Prcac, his name is Dragoljub or Dragan.

         19  Then there's Zigic, Zoran Zigic.

         20       Q.   You also mentioned someone you referred to as

         21  Ckalja.  Did you know his proper name?

         22       A.   I only know his nickname.  Paspalj, I know

         23  him by his family name, that is, Paspalj.  As regards

         24  Koka, I used to know his name and his surname but I

         25  cannot remember it at this point.  I'd known him for 20

Page 1435

          1  years, and everybody called him Koka.

          2       Q.   Now, you've mentioned Prcac.  Did you know

          3  Prcac before the camp?

          4       A.   No.

          5       Q.   How did you come to know him in the camp?

          6       A.   Well, I heard that there was a Prcac who came

          7  to the camp and who replaced Kvocka as the commander.

          8  I may have seen him once or twice in the camp, but I

          9  didn't know him at all; I didn't know him from

         10  Prijedor.  And I also didn't see him in the camp very

         11  often because I generally avoided going out.  I tried

         12  to go out as little as possible.  I didn't go to eat

         13  very often; I was afraid that I would be recognised.

         14  That's why I didn't see him.  And he never entered our

         15  room, at least I never saw him enter our room.

         16       Q.   When you first arrived at Omarska camp, what

         17  was your general physical condition?

         18       A.   I was fit, I was in a good condition.  I

         19  weighed about 70, 75 kilos.  I was in good shape, both

         20  physically and mentally.

         21       Q.   When you were taken from Omarska camp in

         22  early August, could you describe for the Court what

         23  your physical condition was at that time?

         24       A.   I was in a terrible physical condition.  I

         25  had 49 kilos in Manjaca when they first took us to be

Page 1436

          1  weighed.  I was like a skeleton, only skin and bones.

          2  My legs were injured, my arms were injured, my head was

          3  injured, but somehow I managed to overcome that

          4  suffering psychologically.  I think that

          5  psychologically I was relatively well.  However, the

          6  physical injuries were terrible.

          7       Q.   What long-term effects, if any, have you felt

          8  as a result of your detention in Omarska and the

          9  physical abuse of you in Omarska?

         10       A.   Of course the consequences are long-term

         11  consequences.  I still feel the injuries in my spine.

         12  I often have pains in my legs and my arms.  I have

         13  headaches.  Before the camp, I never suffered from

         14  headaches.  Now I often have them, very severe

         15  headaches.  I also suffer from insomnia.

         16       Q.   Now, you've described what your general

         17  financial situation was prior to being taken to

         18  Omarska.  As a result of being forced to leave that

         19  area, would you describe for the Court what your

         20  personal circumstances are today?

         21       A.   Today, until very recently, I was on social

         22  welfare.  However, in the past year, my wife opened a

         23  florist shop here in the Netherlands and she's slowly

         24  beginning to do business.  So as regards our financial

         25  situation, it is okay now.  I don't know what we are

Page 1437

          1  going to do.  We will see about this florist shop.  But

          2  until last year, I was living on social welfare here in

          3  Holland.

          4       Q.   The properties that you held in Prijedor

          5  prior to 30 May 1992, have you been able to recover any

          6  of those properties?

          7       A.   No, I haven't.  Nothing.  Though I visited

          8  Prijedor a month ago, two of my business premises are

          9  still there, a cafe and the florist shop, the Pink

         10  Cafe.  However, the Serbs who are now there are

         11  refusing to leave and the authorities are not doing

         12  anything to give those premises back to me.  I don't

         13  know what will happen next.  There hasn't been any

         14  change in that regard in Prijedor.

         15            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honour, we have no further

         16  questions of the witness.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

         18  very much, Ms. Hollis.  You have managed to finish

         19  today, and thank you for that.

         20            Let me turn now to Mr. Krstan Simic.

         21            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

         22  in view of the time, it is ten minutes past two, I

         23  don't know whether it would be in our interests, in our

         24  common interests, to begin today.  After an examination

         25  like this, the Defence should at least be given an

Page 1438

          1  opportunity to make an order and to organise themselves

          2  in order to avoid repetition and a waste of time, so we

          3  would need at least ten minutes for this consultation.

          4  Or perhaps we can continue with the cross-examination

          5  tomorrow morning.  We will accept your decision.

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, I

          7  thought that during the break you were able to have a

          8  consultation, because the examination-in-chief was

          9  almost finished.  But in any event, you owe us 20

         10  minutes because you were actually supposed to have a

         11  consultation during the break.

         12            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

         13  we can start.  We have made a plan.

         14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

         15  then.  Let us use these 20 minutes.  What will be the

         16  order?

         17            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

         18  I will first ask questions, then counsel for Mr. Zigic,

         19  and then after that, Mr. Nikolic, and then Mr. Fila,

         20  and Mr. Simic at the end.  The only change in the order

         21  is that Mr. Tosic will be asking questions after me.

         22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I

         23  understand you correctly, the order will be as

         24  follows:  You will begin, you, Mr. Krstan Simic, then

         25  Mr. Tosic, then Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Fila --

Page 1439

          1            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the

          2  Nikolic team, the Defence team for Mr. Kos.

          3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

          4  then.  It will be up to the team of the Defence.  So

          5  when I say Simic, Tosic, Nikolic, Fila, you will each

          6  tell me who will be the counsel conducting the

          7  cross-examination, but the order is as I have just read

          8  it.  Very well, then.

          9            Witness, you are now going to answer

         10  questions that will be put to you by the counsel for

         11  the Defence.  Let me take this opportunity to remind

         12  you that we are here to bring justice and not to take

         13  any revenge.  I'm telling this for all of you.  I know

         14  that the Defence counsel are doing their job here, they

         15  know what they're doing, and that you will be treated

         16  in a gentlemanly manner.

         17            Mr. Simic, you do have the floor.

         18            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         19  Mr. President.  I really do wish to express profound

         20  regret on account of what Mr. Beganovic has

         21  experienced.  But I think that hatred is something we

         22  must put aside and I fully support what you have just

         23  said, and I think the truth is a good ally in life, so

         24  I expect Mr. Beganovic to act accordingly.

         25                 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

Page 1440

          1       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, let us talk a little bit about

          2  the period of the election campaign, the events that

          3  took place at the time.  You said a moment ago that

          4  there were three national parties and that they were

          5  joined mostly by members of the corresponding ethnic

          6  groups: Serbs, Muslims, or Croats.

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Do you know any Serb or Muslim, or Bosniak,

          9  to be more precise, that did not join those parties

         10  based on ethnicity?

         11       A.   I am not aware of that.  I just know that

         12  there were both Muslims, Serbs, and Croats in Ante

         13  Markovic's party, of which I was a member, the

         14  reformists.

         15       Q.   Yes.  Can you tell us, what was the position

         16  of all the nationalist parties towards Ante Markovic's

         17  party?

         18       A.   I think it was a negative one.

         19       Q.   Was that party exposed to certain attacks, or

         20  rather the members of that party, did they have

         21  political difficulties, to put it that way?

         22       A.   Not really.  I don't think you could put it

         23  that way, that there was any real problems.  But there

         24  were verbal exchanges amongst citizens, both Muslims,

         25  Serbs, and Croats.  People would say, "As all the Serbs

Page 1441

          1  can be in with their party, why can't we be in ours?"

          2  The Croats said the same for the HDZ.  So that the

          3  majority of citizens supported the national parties.

          4  In fact, the population split up along those lines.

          5       Q.   As a person from town, you had access to a

          6  large quantity of information.  Do you know which was

          7  the first national party to be established in the

          8  territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

          9       A.   I don't know.  That didn't interest me.  As

         10  far as national parties are concerned, I was actually

         11  in Holland in 1990 for a couple of months on business

         12  at the time, so that when I came to Bosnia, when I

         13  returned from Holland at the end of 1990, everything

         14  had been prepared.  I wasn't interested in politics

         15  anyway so I don't know those things.

         16       Q.   As I belong to Ante Markovic's party, I have

         17  certain information about that, so perhaps I know a

         18  little bit more about it.

         19            Do you know that all the national parties,

         20  the HDZ, the SDA, and the HDZ [sic], did they form a

         21  coalition block against Ante Markovic's party?

         22       A.   In my opinion they did.

         23       Q.   Was it publicly announced as a coalition of

         24  national parties?

         25       A.   It wasn't public, but that's how they worked

Page 1442

          1  and that is the impression they gave.

          2       Q.   After the elections --

          3       A.   Let me say you made a mistake, but it doesn't

          4  matter.  It was in 1990 the elections were, not in

          5  1991.

          6       Q.   What was the relationship in Prijedor among

          7  the parties?

          8       A.   The SDA won, then SDS, and then the HDZ.

          9       Q.   Did the SDA get a sufficient number of votes

         10  to form the government alone in Prijedor, or was this

         11  again a kind of coalition?

         12       A.   No.  It obtained a sufficient number of votes

         13  to be the majority party; that is a fact.  The SDA --

         14  that is something we cannot deny, although I was never

         15  a supporter of the SDA.

         16       Q.   Are you saying that the SDA won more than 50

         17  per cent of the votes?

         18       A.   It won and it formed the government until the

         19  forcible takeover on the 30th of April.  That's a

         20  fact.  No one can deny that.  The SDA was in power in

         21  Prijedor, and the departments were distributed.

         22  Everything was known; who was the president of the

         23  municipality, the president of the court, who was the

         24  general manager of the mines, of the electrical

         25  distribution company, et cetera.  I don't know what is

Page 1443

          1  in dispute.

          2       Q.   What do you mean it wasn't in power?

          3       A.   I would have liked it not to have been in

          4  power but it was.

          5       Q.   Obviously we don't understand one another.

          6  For the SDA to form a government, it would need to have

          7  51 per cent of the votes.

          8       A.   How do I know how many votes it got?  I know

          9  who held the various positions.

         10       Q.   Who was the president of the municipality?

         11       A.   A Muslim.

         12       Q.   Who was the president of the local

         13  government?

         14       A.   The president of the municipality was a

         15  Muslim; the chief of police was a Muslim; and the post

         16  office and the electricity supply system was held by

         17  them.

         18       Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you a very clear and

         19  precise question.  Who was the president of the

         20  municipal government?

         21       A.   I was a businessman at the time.  It didn't

         22  interest me.

         23       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, you're talking about facts

         24  here.  You just said that things were a fact.  I'm

         25  asking you who was the president of the municipal

Page 1444

          1  government.

          2       A.   He was a Muslim.

          3       Q.   What was his name?

          4       A.   He was a teacher, professor, Muhamed -- I

          5  can't remember the surname just now.  Muhamed.  I know

          6  that he was a teacher at the high school in Prijedor.

          7  I will recall his name a little later.

          8       Q.   Let me simplify things.  So in your view, the

          9  president of the municipal government was a member of

         10  the Muslim ethnic group.

         11            Now let's go back to the tensions that you

         12  spoke to.  How were they manifesting themselves, when

         13  in April you removed your family before the takeover?

         14       A.   Precisely because the tensions had heightened

         15  to such a degree that I saw that something would

         16  happen.  I don't know what.  Whether the people would

         17  move out or there would be a war, whether there would

         18  be a front line or not, one couldn't tell yet at the

         19  time.

         20            But with the return of the Serb fighters from

         21  the Croatian front, they behaved so arrogantly and

         22  aggressively that it was dangerous for me, not to

         23  mention my wife and child.  It was not possible to do

         24  business any more normally, and that is why I took that

         25  decision.  Originally we had planned it for a month.

Page 1445

          1  Go on a holiday.  Why wait for the summer?  Go for a

          2  holiday in April, go and visit the family, until we see

          3  what happens, I won't leave.  And that was the reason.

          4  There was shooting in Prijedor as if there was a war on

          5  already.

          6       Q.   You mentioned the possibility of war.  Who

          7  would be waging the war in Prijedor?

          8       A.   These Serb fighters, these veterans who come

          9  from Croatia, whose friend or brother gets killed and

         10  then they come to Prijedor to take it out on us.  But

         11  that is not a war, it's worse than war.  He has a gun,

         12  a machine-gun; he has all kinds of artillery pieces.

         13  And what do I have?  And all the other Muslims, what

         14  did we have?  Did we have any weapons?

         15       Q.   A moment ago you said that there was more or

         16  less a free market of weapons.

         17       A.   Not more or less.  There really was a

         18  market.

         19       Q.   Could anyone buy a weapon?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Anyone who had the money to do so?

         22       A.   Yes, that is a fact.

         23       Q.   Money did not care about ethnicity.

         24       A.   No, it did not.

         25       Q.   Let us go back now for a moment to the

Page 1446

          1  Patriotic League.  You agree that when a public rally

          2  is organised, permission is required.  Who granted

          3  permission?

          4       A.   The SUP in Prijedor.

          5       Q.   Who headed the SUP?

          6       A.   A Muslim.

          7       Q.   What was his name?

          8       A.   Hasan Talundzic.

          9       Q.   Who and why would -- who would withhold

         10  permission for holding this peace initiative?

         11       A.   As of the 30th of April it was not possible

         12  because the checkpoints cropped up the very next day.

         13  Until April it was possible; that's a fact.

         14       Q.   Yes.  But in March, was it prohibited?

         15       A.   We stopped working in March already because

         16  there was this forcible takeover of Prijedor.  That was

         17  on the 15th of March.

         18       Q.   The first attempt or --

         19       A.   Yes.  On the 15th of March, a couple hundred

         20  of us rallied in front of the municipality, and then

         21  for some reason they changed their minds and they

         22  postponed this until they did so by force of arms.  So

         23  that in March we stopped our concerts and rallies.

         24            Kuruzovic would not let us enter the

         25  municipality.  He organised the TO.  Kuruzovic knows

Page 1447

          1  what he did around Prijedor.  He threatened that he

          2  would take me to Croatian Gradiska to see what they had

          3  done to Gradiska because of the Ustashas and people

          4  like me.  And what I had been doing until then?  I was

          5  engaged in catering and the florist business.

          6       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, you mentioned the 15th of

          7  March as an attempt to take over power.

          8       A.   I think it was in March.

          9       Q.   How did that manifest itself?

         10       A.   Well, they simply came, the Serbs.  They were

         11  so powerful.  They positioned snipers on the mine

         12  administration building behind the municipality.  They

         13  went into the municipality to come to some sort of an

         14  agreement that power should be handed over to them, and

         15  they entered.  The negotiations started.  Who with, I

         16  don't know.  I wasn't inside; I was in front of the

         17  building.  And then they saw that people were

         18  gathering, and probably the time was still not right

         19  for camps, so they postponed the whole thing for a

         20  while.

         21       Q.   What --

         22       A.   I don't know whether it was exactly on the

         23  15th of March, but sometime in March.  There was an

         24  attempt to take over power in Prijedor in March, I can

         25  guarantee that, the first attempt.

Page 1448

          1       Q.   How was it prevented?

          2       A.   Probably thanks to the congregation of this

          3  large group of people in front of the municipality.  It

          4  wasn't prevented, it was postponed.

          5       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, you gave a statement in 1994

          6  which you signed, it is 22 pages long, and you spoke in

          7  great detail then about many things.  Did you ever have

          8  a weapon in your life?

          9       A.   I did.

         10       Q.   What kind?

         11       A.   Hunting weapon.

         12       Q.   What kind?

         13       A.   It was a carbine with a sniper, and a

         14  shotgun, a weapon that my father owned for more than 30

         15  years.  He was the best-known hunter in Prijedor.  And

         16  these are weapons that I inherited, because my father

         17  died in 1982 and my family made a gift of them to me.

         18  But I was never able to get a license from the Serb

         19  authorities, from the communist police, who were over

         20  my head all my life, ever since I was born.

         21       Q.   Mr. Beganovic, will you please answer my

         22  questions.

         23       A.   But this is linked to that.

         24       Q.   We'll come to that later.

         25       A.   Very well.  But I apologise.

Page 1449

          1       Q.   Since you have opened this question, when did

          2  your father die?

          3       A.   In 1982.

          4       Q.   In 1982?  Was there a legal proceeding to

          5  establish the succession?  Were the weapons lawfully

          6  registered as part of his property?  I'm asking you,

          7  did he have a permit?

          8       A.   Yes, he was a hunter of course.

          9       Q.   When the court ruling came, do you know the

         10  procedure for legalising weapons?

         11       A.   I do.

         12       Q.   Did you submit a request for the weapons in

         13  accordance with the court ruling on succession to be

         14  legalised?

         15       A.   I carried the request to SUP.  I got a

         16  certificate from the hunting society that I'm capable

         17  of hunting, that I'm a hunter, and they gave the

         18  certificate to SUP but they would never give me one.

         19  But they did give me a weapon when I was called up as a

         20  reservist to go to Manjaca.

         21       Q.   We'll come back to that later.  What is the

         22  basis for your acquisition of weapons?  I'm talking

         23  about the legality of holding weapons, of possessing

         24  weapons?  Did you receive a document granting you

         25  approval, in accordance with the law, to hold in your

Page 1450

          1  possession any weapons?

          2       A.   I received the court ruling whereby those

          3  weapons were passed on to me as part of my

          4  inheritance.  Everyone knew this, that I inherited

          5  those weapons from my father.

          6       Q.   When did you get a request that was rejected?

          7       A.   Yes, I received the rejection papers.  Even

          8  my wife, who was a graduate forestry engineer, and she

          9  wanted to gain permission and she was refused too.

         10  Rajko Zigic and company would not let her have it.

         11       Q.   Does that mean that without the permission of

         12  the competent authorities, you held two rifles in your

         13  home?

         14       A.   I handed in those guns to the SUP and they

         15  gave me time to submit another request to become a

         16  member of the hunting society and to have the right to

         17  possess the weapon, and I was rejected again.

         18       Q.   Did you complain?  Did you appeal the

         19  decision?

         20       A.   I did, and it was rejected.  My wife

         21  appealed, and again it was rejected.

         22       Q.   When were those weapons seized from you?

         23       A.   I think sometime in 1988 [Realtime transcript

         24  read in error "1998"].  I can't tell you the exact

         25  year.

Page 1451

          1       Q.   The seizure of weapons, as a result of that

          2  seizure, were you given a receipt on the type of

          3  weapons?

          4       A.   Yes, I think I was.

          5       Q.   What is Kratez?  What kind of a rifle is

          6  Kratez?

          7            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] There's a

          8  small error.  Beganovic said "in 1988" and there's an

          9  error in the transcript.

         10       Q.   When was your rifle seized from you?

         11       A.   Around 1988, I think.

         12       Q.   Did you get a receipt?  Because weapons were

         13  seized from you as you had possession of them

         14  illegally.

         15       A.   I think so.

         16       Q.   Does it say anything, that receipt?

         17       A.   How can I remember what it says?

         18       Q.   Does it have a number of the rifle and name

         19  of it?

         20       A.   Of course.

         21       Q.   Please don't be angry at me.  I'm just asking

         22  you these things.  Why does it say under number 2

         23  "Kratez"?  Did you ever have a shorter rifle?

         24       A.   No.  It was a normal shotgun, .12 calibre,

         25  and a carbine, bought in Novi Sad at an exhibition of

Page 1452

          1  hunting weapons, with the latest sniper, one that can

          2  be used at night.  And my father even had medals for

          3  capital deer that he had killed, so he had very good,

          4  high quality weapons.  I don't know what you mean by

          5  "Kratez".

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

          7  I apologise for interrupting you but we have to close

          8  for today.  Is that all right?  We'll adjourn now.

          9            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Fine,

         10  Your Honour.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Further to

         12  what I have said -- yes, the witness should come back

         13  again tomorrow.  He's leaving us now.

         14                 [The witness withdrew]

         15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Further to

         16  what I have said in relation to the pattern of two

         17  breaks of half an hour each, to give the accused time

         18  to rest as well, I would like to suggest the following

         19  timetable, which I would like you to note down:

         20            We start at 9.30.  We will have a break at

         21  11.00, and after a 30-minute break, which means the

         22  second slot of work will be from 11.30 until ten to

         23  one.  And then again a half-hour break, and the third

         24  slot will be from 1.20 until 2.30.

         25            You see that we get tired as we move along,

Page 1453

          1  so we're shortening the working period.  The first will

          2  be for an hour, thirty; the second one hour, twenty;

          3  and the third one hour, ten.  So in total four working

          4  hours.

          5            Why am I saying this?  I'm saying this for

          6  you to be able to manage your own time.  You have

          7  questions to put, and my idea would be that it is not

          8  convenient to interrupt a question for the benefit of a

          9  break.  If you only have one question, you will put it,

         10  but don't go on to the next question until after the

         11  break.

         12            So with these small differences, plus/minus

         13  five minutes, we are going to try to respect this

         14  timetable.  And if you forget, I will give you the

         15  classical sign of time out.  It is universally

         16  understood.  I think everyone will know what I mean.

         17  The idea is to regulate and organise our work.  We all

         18  know the rules, and the rule regarding the management

         19  of time would be as I have just described.

         20            But to guarantee that the accused has time to

         21  rest, we have had to change the timetable a little

         22  bit.  So we're going to test it to see whether it

         23  works, and to do so, we will meet here again tomorrow

         24  at 9.30.  Thank you.

         25            MS. HOLLIS:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  Could I

Page 1454

          1  quickly put the Court on notice of an issue with

          2  witnesses.

          3            Witness number 3, because of business

          4  commitments, we've had to change witness number 3 in

          5  the order, so we'll move up a witness.  So instead of

          6  witness number 3, the person named as witness number 4

          7  will move up into that position.  The witness number 3

          8  will be back with us next week and we will reinsert

          9  witness number 3 in the order.  But because of that

         10  witness' business commitments that could not be

         11  changed, we've had to change that order.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

         13  Perhaps I should consult Mr. Simic, or someone else.

         14  Do you object to a change in the order of witnesses?

         15            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

         16  Honour.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] From the

         18  standpoint of the Chamber, we understand very well that

         19  there is a certain order of the presentation of

         20  evidence, but it is possible to change it.  The only

         21  thing is for the parties to be prepared and ready for

         22  the cross-examination.  But the Chamber has no problem

         23  with it, and I see that the Defence does not object

         24  either.  So thank you, Ms. Hollis.

         25            Until tomorrow.

Page 1455

          1                 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

          2                 2.40 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

          3                 the 5th day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.