Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1329

1 Thursday, 4 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

6 seated; good morning.

7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good

8 morning to the technicians. I hope that the

9 interpreters are here. I can hear them. Good morning,

10 court reporters, legal assistants; good morning,

11 counsel for the Prosecution. I can see that

12 Mr. Michael Keegan is not here today, but I think that

13 the counsel for the Defence are all present. Good

14 morning to the accused.

15 We will resume our hearing of the Kvocka and

16 others case, and I hope that we will finally begin.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We made a

19 ruling yesterday, but as regards the written request,

20 we have already taken measures and we still insist on

21 oral submission of motions. Everything that can be

22 dealt with orally, I think we should try and do our

23 best to proceed in that way.

24 Ms. Hollis, the witness is already here in

25 the courtroom.

Page 1330

1 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. The witness

2 we are calling, Your Honour, is Emir Beganovic.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

4 morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The

7 interpreters are telling me that they cannot hear you.

8 Could you speak up a little bit? Can you hear me?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 I can hear you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 The interpreters have heard you this time.

13 Could you please read the solemn declaration

14 that the usher will give you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

16 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

17 and nothing but the truth.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 You may be seated now.

22 [The witness sits down]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

24 very much, Witness, for coming to the Tribunal. I have

25 to apologise for the inconvenience that has been caused

Page 1331

1 to you, but I hope that now we will really begin with

2 your testimony. You will first answer questions that

3 will be put to you by Ms. Hollis.

4 Ms. Hollis, you have the floor.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examined by Ms. Hollis:

7 Q. Would you please state your name.

8 A. Emir Beganovic.

9 Q. What is your date of birth?

10 A. 27 October 1955, and I was born in Prijedor.

11 Q. Are you known by any nicknames?

12 A. I have two nicknames: Braco and Began.

13 Q. What is your ethnicity?

14 A. I'm a Muslim by ethnicity, and I'm also

15 Muslim by faith.

16 Q. Sir, in 1992, were you married, and at that

17 time did you have children?

18 A. Yes, I was married and I had one son.

19 Q. Did you perform any military service?

20 A. Yes. I performed my military service in the

21 former JNA, in 1975 and 1976.

22 Q. What were your duties or what was your

23 speciality in the JNA?

24 A. I served with the force engineers. I was

25 with the Sappers.

Page 1332

1 Q. Sir, prior to 30 May 1992, what was your

2 occupation?

3 A. I had my own business. I had a florist shop

4 with my wife.

5 Q. Did you have any other businesses at that

6 time?

7 A. No.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness also mentioned

9 that he had a restaurant.


11 Q. So you had a florist shop and you had a

12 restaurant business as well; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, I had cafes, restaurants; I had two

14 businesses of that kind. And the fourth business was

15 my florist shop, the one that was run by my wife.

16 Q. Where were these businesses located?

17 A. They were all located in the centre of the

18 town.

19 Q. The centre of Prijedor.

20 A. Yes, in the centre of Prijedor.

21 Q. During the time that you lived in Prijedor,

22 where did you live?

23 A. Until 1990 I lived in the area of Stari Grad,

24 where I was born, and in 1990 I moved to the Esada

25 Midzica Street, where I built a flat on the top floor

Page 1333

1 of one of my catering businesses.

2 Q. This area that you moved to in 1990, what

3 area of Prijedor was that?

4 A. The area in question was the centre of the

5 town. It was the Esada Midzica Street, which ran

6 parallel to the Marsala Tita Street. Behind the old

7 Balkan Hotel, that's where the Esada Midzica Street was

8 located.

9 Q. Sir, prior to the events that happened to

10 you, beginning in May of 1992, how would you describe

11 your family's financial situation?

12 A. I was a rather successful businessman. From

13 a very young age, I was involved in business together

14 with my father, and I was one of the wealthier men in

15 Prijedor.

16 Q. What would have been the value of your assets

17 as of May of 1992?

18 A. According to my estimate, the damages that

19 were caused to me during the war would be somewhere

20 between 1.5 and 2 million German marks, if I take into

21 account all the property that I had, all the businesses

22 and the real estate.

23 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time we

24 would like to offer a map of the town of Prijedor as an

25 exhibit, and it would be Exhibit 3/76. We have

Page 1334

1 provided copies of this map to Defence counsel

2 yesterday, and we have additional copies for Your

3 Honours and for the Registry. And if I could ask that

4 that be put on the overhead. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Beganovic, if you could take --

6 MS. HOLLIS: Could the ELMO be pulled closer

7 to the witness, please, so the witness may use it.

8 Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Beganovic, if you could take a moment to

10 orient yourself on the map, please.

11 Now, you mentioned that for a period of time

12 up until 1990 you had lived in an area you called Stari

13 Grad. Could you point to that area, please.

14 A. Yes. This is the area in question

15 [indicates].

16 Q. It appears to be an area that is surrounded

17 by a canal or river; is that correct?

18 A. This is the Sana River and this is a canal

19 which is called Berek [indicates]. This is a kind of

20 island which is called Stari Grad [indicates].

21 Q. Now, on the map that you have, Mr. Beganovic,

22 which is dated 1996, looking at the area you call Stari

23 Grad, it appears that there are approximately two

24 buildings in that area. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1335

1 Q. Now, prior to --

2 A. There was a summer garden and a catering

3 facility that was called Lovac. The rest was

4 completely destroyed.

5 Q. Now, as of 30 May of 1992, approximately how

6 many buildings were there in Stari Grad?

7 A. I think between 150 or 180, maybe 200

8 houses. Between 150 and 200.

9 Q. And what was the ethnicity of this area of

10 Prijedor?

11 A. 100 per cent Muslim. There was only one Serb

12 who used to live in the area of Stari Grad. He didn't

13 own any property; he lived there as a tenant.

14 Q. Who did own property in that area?

15 A. Everything was privately owned.

16 Q. By what ethnic group?

17 A. All Muslims.

18 Q. Now, you indicated that there were houses

19 there. Were there also businesses located in that

20 area?

21 A. Yes. In 1990, some business facilities were

22 built in one part of the park.

23 Q. Sir, if you know, what happened to all those

24 buildings that used to be in Stari Grad?

25 A. First of all, they were plundered and then

Page 1336

1 set on fire, and then bulldozers came and flattened the

2 ground.

3 Q. Now, you also mentioned that you lived and

4 had businesses in the area you called the central area

5 of Prijedor. Could you please show the Court what area

6 you are talking about that your home and your

7 businesses were located.

8 A. They were located in the centre of the town,

9 in this area here [indicates].

10 Q. So you're pointing to an area that is just,

11 as we're looking at the map, to the right of the Stari

12 Grad area; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And what was the ethnic composition of that

15 area of the town?

16 A. In that area of the town, the composition,

17 the ethnic composition was mixed. All ethnic groups

18 lived there.

19 Q. When you say "all ethnic groups", what ethnic

20 groups are you talking about?

21 A. Well, mostly Muslims, Serbs, and Croats. But

22 there were others as well.

23 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time the

24 Prosecutor offers into evidence Exhibit 3/76. And if

25 the bailiff could retrieve that from the witness,

Page 1337

1 please.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are there

3 any objections by the Defence? No? Very well, then.

4 The exhibit is admitted, Ms. Hollis. Thank you.


6 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you have indicated that there

7 were a variety of ethnic groups that lived in the

8 Prijedor area. Do you recall when the elections were

9 held in Yugoslavia, in Bosnia?

10 A. I believe they were held in 1991.

11 Q. And within opstina Prijedor, what party won

12 the majority?

13 A. The SDA party.

14 Q. And that party was comprised predominantly of

15 what ethnic group?

16 A. Of Muslims.

17 Q. And what other ethnic groups -- what other

18 parties were there in the area at that time?

19 A. There was the SDA party, the SDS, the HDZ

20 [Realtime transcript omitted "HDZ"], and the reformists

21 that were led by Ante Markovic.

22 Q. Of the SDS party, what was the predominant

23 ethnic group, if any, of that party?

24 A. They were almost 100 per cent Serbs.

25 Q. I don't see it on the screen, but I believe

Page 1338

1 you indicated the HDZ party; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what was the predominant ethnic group of

4 that party?

5 A. Croats.

6 Q. You also mentioned the reformist party. What

7 was that party?

8 A. It was a party that was led by Ante

9 Markovic. He was the founder of the party and he was

10 in favour of improvement of economic situation,

11 economic policy in the country, and he had quite a few

12 followers in Prijedor. I was one of them.

13 Q. Was that reformist party affiliated with any

14 of these other parties?

15 A. No. No, it wasn't.

16 Q. How politically active were you?

17 A. I wasn't politically active at all, except

18 that Dr. Esad Sadikovic, Redo Marijanovic and myself,

19 in 1991, at the end of the summer, we established the

20 so-called League for Peace. The idea was to establish

21 a kind of balance between the various parties. We were

22 advocating peace. We wanted to attract people from all

23 ethnic groups. We wanted to show people that a war was

24 not necessary in Prijedor. We wanted to avoid the

25 war. We were fighting for peace. That was the only

Page 1339

1 option that was of any interest to us. But at the

2 beginning of 1992, the league stopped functioning.

3 Q. What were the kind of activities that the

4 league participated in to try to show people that

5 war -- that war was not necessary in Prijedor?

6 A. In the summer of 1991, we organised this

7 League for Peace, and at that time the majority of the

8 members of the league were people from the town area,

9 and they were full ethnic communities, Muslims, Serbs,

10 Croats. We decided to organise public concerts. They

11 were held in the town and the message we wanted to

12 convey was the message of peace. We always managed to

13 gather between 7.000, 8.000, sometimes even 10.000

14 people who would attend those concerts. So people were

15 in favour of peace. However, the political parties did

16 not like our activity, and very soon we did not have

17 any opportunities to work and we had to stop

18 functioning.

19 At the end of March, or was it the beginning

20 of April, I don't remember, we stopped functioning. We

21 could no longer obtain permissions to organise

22 concerts; we couldn't have any location for that. So

23 our activities simply stopped.

24 Q. You say at the end of March or the beginning

25 of April. Of what year?

Page 1340

1 A. 1992.

2 Q. You indicated that you stopped because you

3 could no longer obtain permission to organise. Who was

4 denying you this permission to organise?

5 A. Mostly the SDS party because the SDS party

6 attempted to forcibly take power in Prijedor. We, from

7 the League for Peace, managed to gather a large number

8 of people. They went to the municipal building, to the

9 town hall, and we had peaceful demonstrations and we

10 managed somehow to postpone it for one month, for

11 example. But the SDS was gaining more power and they

12 were quite strong in Prijedor, so we no longer had any

13 opportunity to act. And this is how the activities of

14 the League for Peace stopped.

15 Q. Now, you testified that this League for Peace

16 was created to show people that there was no need for

17 war in Prijedor. Had you observed increasing tensions

18 between ethnic groups in Prijedor?

19 A. Yes, the tensions began to mount after the

20 breakout of the conflict in Croatia. The army, the

21 JNA, was predominantly Serb, and they went to Croatia

22 to fight there. But the Muslims rejected the callup to

23 go to Croatia, and when they would come back from the

24 front, from Croatia, they would walk around the town,

25 armed. There would be shooting incidents. Weapons

Page 1341

1 were being sold, including, for example, hand

2 grenades. And this is what caused the tensions to

3 mount at that time.

4 Q. You indicated when "they" would come back

5 from Croatia and "they" would walk around the town

6 armed. What individuals are you talking about? What

7 group?

8 A. I'm referring to the Serb soldiers who went

9 to Croatia to fight in Croatian cities, at the fronts

10 in general.

11 Q. In addition to these Serb soldiers who had

12 weapons, did you yourself observe other individuals in

13 Prijedor being provided with weapons?

14 A. At that time I didn't observe that. I didn't

15 notice that anyone else possessed any weapons, except

16 for the Serb soldiers who went to war in Croatia.

17 Q. Now, you indicated that weapons were being

18 sold. To whom were these weapons being sold, to your

19 knowledge?

20 A. The weapons were being sold to everybody, to

21 all citizens. Whoever had any money could obtain,

22 could buy, weapons. An automatic rifle would cost up

23 to 2.000 German marks, for example, and hand grenades

24 were at the beginning between 20 and 30 German marks,

25 and at the end they would sell for 10 German marks, for

Page 1342

1 example. All those weapons belonged to the former

2 JNA.

3 Q. In the Prijedor area during this time, when

4 these tensions were developing, you indicated that you

5 saw Serb soldiers walking around with weapons; there

6 were incidents where weapons were fired. Did you

7 observe any other military troops, equipment, or

8 weaponry being moved into the Prijedor area?

9 A. Yes. This took place every day. They would

10 go to Croatia every day; they would come back from

11 Croatia. People used to carry weapons around the

12 town. Nobody tried to prevent that. There were lots

13 of shooting incidents, lots of wounding incidents. It

14 was common knowledge amongst the citizens of Prijedor.

15 Q. Now, during the time period between February

16 and the end of April of 1992, did you begin to notice

17 any exodus of people leaving the town?

18 A. Yes, people were leaving the town in great

19 numbers. Every day buses would leave, and it was very

20 difficult at that time to obtain tickets. Mostly

21 Muslims and Croats were leaving the town; mostly women

22 and children. People went to Croatia. Some of them

23 stayed in Croatia and then later on they left for third

24 countries.

25 Q. Did any members of your family leave Prijedor

Page 1343

1 at that time?

2 A. Yes, my wife left the town with my son in

3 mid-April. She went to Croatia, to the area of

4 Istria. She was staying with her relatives in Labin.

5 And she remained there until September, and in

6 September she joined a convoy to the Netherlands.

7 Q. Now, sir, why did you have your family leave

8 the town of Prijedor at this time?

9 A. Simply because it was already evident that

10 the situation was unsafe, that something would happen.

11 We had all expected some sort of fighting, but that the

12 massacre would happen, no one could have imagined. All

13 of us who sent our families away were fortunate because

14 they escaped these terrible experiences.

15 Q. After you sent your family away, where did

16 you reside?

17 A. The next day I moved to Dr. Esad Sadikovic's

18 house.

19 Q. You mentioned Dr. Sadikovic several times.

20 Who was he?

21 A. He was a doctor who had worked for the United

22 Nations, but more recently he was in Prijedor. He was

23 a specialist for nose, ear, and throat. He was one of

24 the most prestigious citizens of Prijedor who lived

25 before the war and during the war in the camp in order

Page 1344

1 to help others. He was widely beloved by members of

2 all ethnic groups. All of them respected him.

3 Q. What was his ethnic group?

4 A. He was a Bosnian, a Muslim.

5 Q. Now, why did you move to Dr. Sadikovic's

6 house after your family left?

7 A. He was related to my wife and one of my

8 closest friends in Prijedor. We were best friends and

9 we were very close, and I simply felt safer in his home

10 than to go on living alone, even though tensions by

11 then had already heightened. And I simply didn't feel

12 safe living alone.

13 Q. What did you fear would happen to you if you

14 lived alone?

15 A. I was afraid that at night someone might

16 throw a hand grenade at me or open fire at me, which

17 was a realistic prospect, because the Serbs who had

18 armed themselves started mistreating citizens and

19 taking revenge on them out of certain personal

20 reasons. If simply they didn't like someone, they took

21 their revenge on them. So people simply did not feel

22 safe.

23 Q. Sir, do you recall, on the 29th and 30th of

24 April, the Serb takeover of power in Prijedor?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1345

1 Q. And after that event, what changes did you

2 notice in the activities in the town of Prijedor?

3 A. They started out that same day. They hoisted

4 their flags on all the important buildings in Prijedor,

5 with the four S's on them. Then quite suddenly

6 checkpoints cropped up in town at all major crossroads,

7 in front of all important institutions, all over town,

8 so that citizens had to pass through those

9 checkpoints. They were mistreated, those who were

10 Muslims or Croats. The Serbs could pass by without

11 being stopped. So that the discomfort started the day

12 they took over. The electricity was cut, though it was

13 switched on and off occasionally. The media were taken

14 over as well; the Serbs used them for their own ends.

15 So that life changed overnight, within 24 hours.

16 People moved around town less and less, so that after

17 some 15 or 20 days, people stopped going out

18 altogether.

19 Q. And did that apply to you as well? Did you

20 stop going out?

21 A. Yes, I did too. For the last ten days, I

22 closed my establishments and I saw that there was no

23 point in keeping them open. There were no customers;

24 there was no business. The town was deserted. So I

25 limited my movements to the street where

Page 1346

1 Dr. Sadikovic's house was. We didn't need to go out of

2 town anyway.

3 Q. When was the last time that you were actually

4 able to operate your businesses?

5 A. The end of April -- no. No, I'm sorry. The

6 end of May, around the 20th of May, I think, was when I

7 closed them.

8 Q. Prior to these tensions that had escalated in

9 the Prijedor area, the clientele of your businesses

10 were composed of what ethnic groups?

11 A. They were of all ethnic groups. They would

12 all come. However, as tensions escalated, the Serbs

13 stopped frequenting Muslim establishments, not only

14 mine but all Muslim cafes. They simply concentrated in

15 those cafes owned by members of the Serb ethnic group.

16 So that the divisions were evident in this area too, in

17 terms of the catering institutions. It was known which

18 were frequented by the Serbs, even though before the

19 war we all used to go to the same cafes. But after

20 this, there was some sort of a division.

21 Q. I'd like now to direct your attention to the

22 events of the 30th of May of 1992. In the morning of

23 the 30th of May of 1992, where were you?

24 A. I was in Dr. Esad Sadikovic's house.

25 Q. And was there anyone else in his house with

Page 1347

1 you at that time?

2 A. Yes. A friend of ours, a common friend, a

3 private caterer like me, Asif Kapetanovic, who was also

4 known in town as a successful businessman, he was ill.

5 He had kidney problems. And he was afraid to go to

6 hospital, so that he spent the last two or three days

7 at Dr. Sadikovic's house, who was giving him injections

8 as treatment for his kidneys, whereas I had already

9 been in that house for a month and a half.

10 Q. And Asif Kapetanovic, what was his ethnic

11 group?

12 A. He was a Bosnian of Muslim faith.

13 Q. On the morning of the 30th of May, 1992, do

14 you recall being awakened by Asif Kapetanovic?

15 A. Yes. Yes, he woke me up. I was sleeping.

16 The previous night we sat together, until late. I had

17 a bit too much to drink, so I slept firmly. I didn't

18 hear the shooting. When he woke me up, I heard the

19 gunfire. I got up, got dressed, looked through the

20 window and saw that troops were moving around, wearing

21 various uniforms, police uniforms, camouflage uniforms,

22 olive-grey uniforms.

23 We switched on the radio and started

24 listening to the programme, and announcements were made

25 giving instructions to how the Muslims should behave;

Page 1348

1 that they should stay home, that they should be at

2 rest, that they shouldn't move around. And then later

3 on they said that all Muslims should hang out white

4 flags. Those who didn't have flags, white sheets, so

5 that the Muslim houses could be identified by these

6 white flags, which Esad and myself did. On both sides

7 of the house, we hung up a white sheet.

8 Q. If I can interrupt you for a moment, sir.

9 When you looked out to the town, you indicated that you

10 saw individuals in different kinds of uniforms moving

11 around. Did you, when you looked out, see any signs of

12 destruction to any areas of the town?

13 A. No, we didn't see any destruction. But when

14 we were hanging up these sheets, we climbed upstairs

15 and I could see Stari Grad from Dr. Esad's house, and I

16 saw that it was burning. All over Stari Grad houses

17 were burning. I could roughly spot by parents' home,

18 and I could see that there was a flame and smoke there

19 too.

20 Q. And were your parents still in Stari Grad at

21 this time?

22 A. I thought my mother was in the house, but

23 later on it turned out that she was lucky enough not to

24 be in the house. She was staying with my sister in

25 another part of town.

Page 1349

1 Q. And Mr. Kapetanovic, did he observe any

2 destruction to any buildings that he owned or that his

3 family occupied?

4 A. Yes. After some time, maybe half an hour,

5 Asif saw that his cafe bar was burning, and above that

6 cafe was his family apartment. This was, from

7 Sadikovic's house, as the crow flies, some 100 metres.

8 And he saw that the flames were about 10 to 20 metres

9 high. The whole house was on fire. And he screamed,

10 "My mother's inside. She must be burning." I decided

11 to go with him. We reached the house; however, the

12 next-door neighbour told Asif that his mother had left

13 the house prior to the fire and that she was alive.

14 Q. Sir, as you moved from Dr. Sadikovic's house

15 so this area in the old town, what, if anything, did

16 you hear as you moved toward that area?

17 A. I didn't understand the question, I'm

18 afraid.

19 Q. Yes. As you moved from Dr. Sadikovic's house

20 towards Asif Kapetanovic's shop, where his mother

21 lived, what, if any, sounds did you hear in the

22 streets?

23 A. The shooting was still going on, and a

24 soldier came up, or he was some 30 or 50 metres away

25 from us and he shouted "Stop". I turned around and saw

Page 1350

1 that he was carrying a rather large rifle, something

2 bigger than an automatic rifle. It could have been a

3 machine-gun. So I said to Asif, "I'm not going to wait

4 for him, I'm going to run." There was a hedge of the

5 house, I jumped over it and I heard two or three short

6 bursts of fire. I was lucky not to have been hit. I

7 went into the yard. I knew it was a Muslim house. I

8 knocked on the door and the door was opened and I went

9 inside.

10 Q. Now, how long did you remain at that house?

11 A. Maybe an hour, an hour and a half.

12 Q. And why did you leave?

13 A. The family where I went inside were listening

14 to the radio, and the instructions on the radio were

15 that the Muslims should come out with white ribbons

16 around their arms, that they should form a line and

17 head towards the centre of town, towards the high-rises

18 there. In Muharem Stojanovic's street, there were

19 three high-rises, and they still exist, and we were

20 instructed to congregate there. Some of the people

21 stayed there and another group was taken towards the

22 Balkan Hotel.

23 Q. Now, as you and these people moved toward

24 this area, were there any escorts that you had?

25 A. Yes, all the time. There were members of the

Page 1351

1 Serb police, the army, people in uniform, in camouflage

2 military uniform, and there were others wearing blue

3 police uniforms.

4 Q. And what weapons, if any, did these

5 individuals have?

6 A. All of them had weapons, and they were mostly

7 carrying automatic rifles, pistols, grenades attached

8 to their belts, and so on.

9 Q. As you moved toward this centre point that

10 you had been directed toward, did you see any dead

11 bodies as you went there?

12 A. Yes. As we were moving along the pavement,

13 next to a small open market, on the pavement I saw a

14 pile of some four or five bodies, one on top of the

15 other, thrown into a pile. I glanced across the

16 marketplace and I saw another two or three bodies

17 beneath the fruit and vegetable stalls. They were all

18 civilians. They had no military insignia on them or

19 uniforms or weapons. There were no weapons there

20 either. They were civilians.

21 Q. Were you able to recognise any of these

22 people?

23 A. No. No, I was not able to recognise them

24 because they had probably been mutilated by machine-gun

25 fire, so I couldn't recognise anyone.

Page 1352

1 Q. When you reached this centre point, how many

2 people were at this central point?

3 A. There were perhaps about 2.000 people.

4 Q. Did you recognise any of these people?

5 A. Yes, I knew most of them. I saw my mother

6 there, sister, my brother-in-law, and all the other

7 citizens, most of whom I knew quite well.

8 Q. And what was the ethnic group of these people

9 that you recognised?

10 A. Most of them were Muslims, but there were

11 some Croats as well.

12 Q. What happened once you reached this central

13 point?

14 A. Well, nothing, really. We saw there were

15 about ten buses from the city transport parked there.

16 They gave us orders for the men over 15 years of age to

17 go to one side, and children under 15 and women to go

18 to the other side, which we naturally did. We had to.

19 Q. Now, once you were separated into groups of

20 one group of men, one group of women and children, what

21 was done with the group of men?

22 A. We were loaded onto the buses, a column of

23 buses was formed, and the buses set off towards the SUP

24 building in Prijedor.

25 Q. On your bus, how many people were on your

Page 1353

1 bus?

2 A. There was a driver in uniform and one or two

3 escorts. I think two escorts.

4 Q. And how many people who had been arrested

5 were on your bus?

6 A. About 50.

7 Q. Now, you indicated that one or two people, as

8 escorts, were on your bus. What kind of uniforms did

9 they have?

10 A. Blue uniforms.

11 Q. And did you recognise what kind of uniforms

12 those were?

13 A. Police uniforms.

14 Q. Did you recognise either of those escorts?

15 A. In my bus, no, I didn't know them.

16 Q. Now, you indicated that once you got on the

17 buses, then you moved in the direction of the SUP.

18 Were you given any instructions as to how to conduct

19 yourselves on the bus?

20 A. They said we should bend down our heads, not

21 to look out the windows. The column of buses stopped

22 in front of the SUP. We stayed there for five or ten

23 minutes. They probably went inside to get

24 instructions, and then they came back, these escorts,

25 and the column started off again. We reached the JNA

Page 1354

1 Street and then Partizan Street, and then we went

2 directly to Tomasica.

3 Q. And what is Tomasica?

4 A. It's a village outside Prijedor, about 20

5 kilometres from Prijedor.

6 Q. And from Tomasica, where did you go?

7 A. We didn't reach Tomasica. Before we reached

8 Tomasica, we took a left turn. And afterwards, I

9 realised -- actually, I never used that road -- the

10 road led to Omarska.

11 Q. What time of the day did you arrive at

12 Omarska? Was it during the daytime? Was it at night?

13 A. It was getting dark by then.

14 Q. And at the time that your bus arrived at

15 Omarska, how many other buses, if any, also arrived?

16 A. I saw our column of some ten buses arriving.

17 Q. Now, when your bus arrived, where did it

18 stop?

19 A. It stopped near the so-called pista,

20 actually, next to the restaurant in Omarska.

21 Q. And what happened after your bus stopped

22 there?

23 A. Well, they took some ten men at a time from

24 the bus, searched them, took all their valuables from

25 them, and told them to go into this room behind the

Page 1355

1 restaurant.

2 Q. Now, you say when you arrived there, "they

3 took ten men at a time and searched them." These

4 individuals who took the men off and searched them,

5 were they waiting there for you when your bus arrived?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. And what type of clothing were they wearing?

8 A. They were also in blue police uniforms, in

9 camouflage uniforms, in olive-grey uniforms. There

10 were all kinds. They were all of Serb ethnicity, the

11 army, the police.

12 Q. What kind of weapons, if any, did these

13 individuals?

14 A. Mostly automatic rifles and pistols and hand

15 grenades.

16 Q. And these individuals that took you off the

17 bus and searched you, did you later see any of these

18 individuals while you were detained in Omarska camp?

19 A. Yes, I did see most of them. I would see

20 them all the time.

21 Q. And these individuals that you saw, what were

22 their duties at Omarska camp?

23 A. Some were leaders and others were ordinary

24 guards.

25 Q. Now, when you yourself were taken off the

Page 1356

1 bus, what happened to you?

2 A. They told me to take out everything from my

3 pockets, and as I happened to be wearing a jean jacket,

4 which I hadn't worn for a long time previously, I put

5 my hand in a pocket and I took out a couple of

6 crackers. And he saw me put them down on a bench and

7 he said, "You can execute this one because he used

8 these to try and confuse our army." So I was taken

9 aside and I waited for them to take me to execute me.

10 Then somebody started pushing me by the

11 shoulders inside.

12 Q. If we could stop there for a moment. You

13 indicated that you took something from your pocket.

14 What was it that you took from your pocket?

15 A. Ordinary crackers, fire crackers that people

16 throw at New Year's, and I also had some papers in my

17 pocket and they happened to be there.

18 Q. And then you indicated that, "He saw me put

19 them down," meaning the fire crackers, and "he said you

20 can execute this one." Who is the "he" you're talking

21 about?

22 A. Yes. He used to be a guard in the camp,

23 Pavlovic or Palic. He had a dark complexion and dark

24 hair and he had a lock of white hair. I think he spent

25 all of his time in the camp as a guard.

Page 1357

1 Q. During your detention at Omarska, did you

2 come to associate him with one particular group of

3 guards, one particular shift?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And which shift was that?

6 A. I think it was Krkan's shift.

7 Q. When you say "Krkan's shift", that's how that

8 shift was referred to in the camp?

9 A. Yes, Krkan's shift.

10 Q. You indicated that after this search and

11 after you were taken aside, that eventually you were

12 moved into a building. What building were you moved

13 into?

14 A. I was taken to a building behind the

15 restaurant. The place was referred to as Mujo's room.

16 The soldier pushed me in but I didn't know who he was.

17 I didn't know where they were taking me. I thought I

18 would be killed. But this guy was wearing a blue

19 police uniform, and when I turned, I recognised him.

20 He was an active professional policeman in Prijedor for

21 a very long time. He told me to go there, and when I

22 entered the room, I saw approximately 600 to 700

23 people. Most of them were known to me. And he told

24 me, "Just go there and hide. Don't answer when they

25 call you. If you answer, you will be killed. If your

Page 1358

1 name is called out, just don't answer. Just pretend

2 you're not there. This is how much I can help you, and

3 this is all I can do for you. Just go there and hide

4 somewhere." And he turned around and left after that.

5 Q. Are you willing to tell the Court the name of

6 this man who gave you those instructions?

7 A. I couldn't do it now. I know him very well

8 by sight. He used to be on duty very often in the

9 centre of the town, in the street where I had my cafes

10 and my restaurant. And I would see him very often but

11 I can't remember his name at this moment.

12 Q. Now, you indicated that when you went into

13 this room you referred to as Mujo's room, that you

14 thought there were perhaps some 600 people in that

15 room. Did you recognise any of those people?

16 A. I knew most of them. My cousin was there,

17 for example. There were lots of people who were my

18 neighbours from the Stari Grad area. Lots of men from

19 Stari Grad were there. There were also people from the

20 area called Lukavica, and I knew all of those people.

21 Q. And your cousin who was there. What is your

22 cousin's name?

23 A. Mirsad Beganovic.

24 Q. Now, these people that you knew in this room,

25 what was their ethnicity?

Page 1359

1 A. Most of them were Muslims, but there were

2 some Croats as well.

3 Q. Now, how long did you remain in Mujo's room

4 after you were taken in there that night, that evening?

5 A. I only spent that night there. The place was

6 crowded; I think there were over 1.000 people there.

7 We could hardly breathe, and there was of course no

8 room for us to lie down. And in the following morning,

9 half of the people were taken to the pista and one half

10 remained in the room.

11 Q. And were you taken to the pista or did you

12 remain in the room?

13 A. I was taken to the pista.

14 Q. Now, how long were you held on the pista?

15 A. I remained there between 10 and 12 days, on

16 the pista.

17 Q. And from the pista, where were you held?

18 A. I was taken from the pista to the "white

19 house" first, where I was badly beaten up. And two

20 days later I was transferred to the room referred to as

21 "Petniska" which means room number 15.

22 Q. And that room 15 was in what building?

23 A. In the building called "hangar".

24 Q. And how long were you held in that room?

25 A. I stayed one month, perhaps a little less

Page 1360

1 than that, in that room.

2 Q. And then from room 15, where were you next

3 held?

4 A. After that, I was taken for interrogation on

5 the upper floor of the restaurant building where

6 offices were, offices that were used for the

7 interrogation of detainees. And after that I was taken

8 back to the pista, and on the same day I was

9 transferred to Mujo's room.

10 Q. This is the same Mujo's room you referred to

11 earlier; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, was there any other location at the

14 Omarska camp that you were held prior to you being

15 taken from the camp?

16 A. There was a small garage there which was not

17 bigger than 20 square metres, I think. I spent two

18 nights and two days there. There were perhaps 160, 170

19 of us there, I don't remember, but the situation was

20 horrible.

21 Q. Now, when was it that you were actually taken

22 from Omarska camp?

23 A. On the 6th of August, 1992.

24 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time I

25 would like to have the witness move to the model and

Page 1361

1 point to the various locations he has described for

2 you. To do that most effectively, I believe we will

3 need the assistance of the technical people to operate

4 this camera. Is it possible to have that assistance?

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

6 Ms. Hollis, the witness may approach the model, and

7 we'll did our best, as I see that Mr. Dubuisson is in

8 contact with the technical booth.

9 MS. HOLLIS: If the bailiff could assist the

10 witness with the microphone and the headset, please.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can see

12 that Mr. Tosic wishes to say something.

13 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your

14 Honour, for interrupting. There were quite a few

15 leading questions by the counsel for the Prosecution as

16 regards a number of certain dates. For example, the

17 30th of April, the 30th of May. There were also a few

18 questions if the witness had seen any corpses, instead

19 of asking him, for example, what was it that he saw.

20 There were a number of leading questions. I should

21 like Your Honours to have that in mind.

22 As regards the statement of the witness,

23 there are some discrepancies and that's why I believe

24 that it was a leading question. The witness should

25 have been asked a question like where he was on the

Page 1362

1 30th of April and the event itself should not have been

2 mentioned.

3 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, could I respond?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that

5 Mr. Fila also wishes to intervene, so perhaps you can

6 respond after that.

7 Mr. Fila.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I

9 should like to state for the record that the witness,

10 while approaching the model, cursed the accused, Mladjo

11 Radic. Everybody could hear that. We all heard him.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't curse

13 him.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we

15 could all hear that.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

17 can you respond to the objection raised by Mr. Tosic?

18 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Your Honour, the Prosecution submits that

20 there are instances where, in order to focus the

21 testimony and save time, you can indeed lead the

22 witness. You can refer them to a certain date. If the

23 Defence is saying that there is a dispute about when

24 the takeover of Prijedor occurred, that is one of the

25 facts that they have agreed to.

Page 1363

1 So my submission is that these were attempts

2 to focus the witness, to expedite the relevant

3 testimony. These are supposedly not facts that were in

4 dispute. And the issue about whether he saw dead

5 bodies, he could say yes or no, and then he went on to

6 describe them. We suggest that these were not unduly

7 leading questions. They were attempts to focus and

8 direct the testimony to relevant parts. If we were to

9 ask him what happened on that day, we'd sit here for

10 two hours and hear him describe everything. It was an

11 attempt to focus the testimony.

12 Regarding discrepancies in testimony and

13 prior statements, alleged discrepancies, that's a

14 matter for cross-examination. So we believe that the

15 questioning was appropriate. It was not unduly leading

16 and that the discrepancies are a matter to be addressed

17 in cross-examination.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I

19 think that Ms. Hollis is right. We will also be

20 mindful of the remark raised by the Defence. It is

21 true that we did not reach a ruling on judicial notice

22 yesterday, but we said that we take notice of a number

23 of facts which are agreed upon by both parties. We are

24 going to apply normal rules in this particular

25 testimony, but we are not forgetting that there is an

Page 1364

1 agreement and one has to bear that in mind. Otherwise,

2 we will never finish this case. You always have the

3 right to intervene, but it has to be a justified

4 intervention. We have to bear in mind that we agree

5 that certain dates are correct, are agreed upon, and

6 that is why I think we can proceed in a speedy

7 fashion. And it is not necessary to incorporate

8 everything in the examination-in-chief, but I didn't

9 want to interrupt.

10 We are trying here to have a good procedure,

11 to make it better. I thank you for your remark, for

12 your intervention. You always have the right to

13 intervene, but you should do it only if it is

14 absolutely necessary to do so and if it is useful.

15 You may continue.

16 As regards the conduct of the witness, I did

17 not notice that, and the witness should bear that in

18 mind, as he knows what he has said or done. But I

19 didn't hear anything. We have to be very careful about

20 that in the future.

21 Ms. Hollis, you may continue.

22 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. You have referred to the bus arriving at

24 Omarska and stopping by the building you referred to as

25 the restaurant building. Would you please point to

Page 1365

1 that building?

2 A. It was here [indicates]. This is the

3 restaurant and this is the entrance to the restaurant

4 [indicates]. This is the restaurant building

5 [indicates].

6 Q. And the entire building, is there a term by

7 which that building is referred to?

8 A. Here [indicates]?

9 Q. The building you were just pointing to.

10 A. The restaurant building. That's how we

11 referred to it.

12 Q. Now, you also mentioned an area called the

13 pista. Could you point out that area, please?

14 A. Yes. This is the area here [indicates],

15 located between the restaurant and the hangar, the

16 whole of this area here [indicates].

17 Q. You mentioned the hangar. You're referring

18 to the long building across from the restaurant as the

19 hangar building?

20 A. Yes, this building here [indicates].

21 Q. Now, you also mentioned a building you called

22 the "white house". Could you point to that building?

23 A. This is the building in question

24 [indicates].

25 JUDGE RIAD: We don't see anything on the

Page 1366

1 screen.

2 MS. HOLLIS: I'm afraid I can't respond to

3 that, Your Honour, because I don't know the technical.

4 I'm told that it was on the video. I don't --

5 JUDGE RIAD: Proceed.

6 MS. HOLLIS: Do you see it now, Your Honour?

7 Could they focus on the camp again with the camera,

8 please? I think perhaps, Your Honours, we're having

9 technical difficulties, but we will move along with

10 this.

11 If the bailiff could please remove the roof

12 of the building called the restaurant building, the

13 restaurant building here. If you could move the roof

14 that's toward the back of the building. Yes. And we

15 are now looking at the first floor of the building with

16 the roof off.

17 Q. Mr. Beganovic, could you please point to the

18 room where you were interrogated?

19 A. I think it was in this room here [indicates]

20 B9.

21 Q. And B9 is the number that appears in that

22 room; is that correct?

23 A. I couldn't tell you that.

24 Q. The number that you just read, is that the

25 number that appears in that room?

Page 1367

1 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, this is the room in

2 question, B9 [indicates].

3 MS. HOLLIS: Now, if the first floor of that

4 building could be taken off, please.

5 Q. And if you could point to the room you have

6 referred to as Mujo's room.

7 A. This room here [indicates], A9.

8 Q. And that is the number that appears in that

9 room on the model; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. HOLLIS: Now, if the other roofs could be

12 taken off that building, please.

13 Q. Now, you have mentioned the restaurant part

14 of that building. Could you point to that?

15 A. Here [indicates], A22.

16 Q. Now, during your time at Omarska, did you

17 become familiar with a room that was referred to as the

18 "glass house"?

19 A. No, but I would pass by that room when we

20 went to eat.

21 Q. You were never in that room?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Can you point to where this room called the

24 "glass house" is on the model?

25 A. This is the room marked A14 [indicates].

Page 1368

1 Q. Now, you've also referred to being in the

2 "white house", being beaten there and also being held

3 there. Could you move to the "white house" and could

4 you show us first the room or rooms you were in in the

5 "white house" when you were beaten?

6 A. This is the building in question

7 [indicates]. I was in room A6, the second room on the

8 right side, looking from the entrance.

9 Q. So as you enter the building, the second room

10 on the right is the room to which you're referring; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You also indicated that you were held in the

14 "white house" for a short time. Could you point to

15 the room or rooms in which you were held?

16 A. I was held one night in room A3, the first

17 room on the left.

18 Q. Were you held in any other rooms in the

19 "white house"?

20 A. I also spent one night in the toilet, A5.

21 Q. And where is that room located as you enter

22 the "white house"?

23 A. It was straight ahead from the entrance, A5.

24 That was the toilet.

25 Q. Now, sir, you have also mentioned being held

Page 1369

1 in a room you called "room 15" in the hangar.

2 MS. HOLLIS: If the bailiff could take the

3 roof off the front part of the hangar, the part facing

4 the "white house", the long part facing the "white

5 house", if that could be taken off.

6 Q. And if the witness could please point to the

7 room you referred to as "room 15".

8 A. This is the room [indicates], B7, and it led

9 to room B8 and B23. You could access those two rooms

10 from that one.

11 Q. And as you went into the -- as you went into

12 the hangar building, did you -- where was that room in

13 relation to the stairs?

14 A. On the right side. We would enter here

15 [indicates], then we would climb up the stairs, and on

16 the right side was the door leading to that room.

17 Q. Thank you. If the witness could please

18 resume his seat.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

20 would this be a convenient time for a break?

21 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

23 we think that this witness and several other witnesses

24 which will follow is a very important witness for us.

25 We should like to have an effective use of this break,

Page 1370

1 and we would like to contact our client here in the

2 vicinity of the courtroom. We should kindly ask for

3 our client not to be led downstairs, and I think that

4 this will assist us in our work. Thank you.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

6 Mr. Dubuisson, as regards the logistics, are any

7 difficulties in this regard?

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I will see

9 about it, Your Honour. I will see if there are any

10 problems.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

12 then. If it is possible that this contact is allowed,

13 and when we come back, if there are any problems -- I

14 should like the witness to leave the courtroom before

15 us, in order to avoid any conflict. So the witness

16 will only be brought in after the Judges have entered

17 the courtroom.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry I

20 had to take this measure, but it is in order to avoid

21 any problems, any conflicts.

22 We will have a 20-minute break now. The

23 break will be a 30-minute break so that the requested

24 contact can be made. A 30-minute break.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

Page 1371

1 --- On resuming at 11.28 p.m.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

3 seated.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, as the witness

6 enters, the Prosecution feels it necessary to put on

7 the record that my colleague was observing the witness

8 as he moved to the model and did not observe any

9 indication of his lips moving to say something, nor

10 hear any derogatory comments. In light of the Defence

11 assertion, we wanted to put that on the record.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

13 Ms. Hollis. You may continue. But still, there is

14 tension that one can feel in the courtroom and we have

15 to contain it. So please continue, Ms. Hollis.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you indicated that you spent

18 the first night in this room called Mujo's room and

19 that the next day you were taken to this pista area

20 that you have identified for the Court.

21 Now, this next day when you were taken to the

22 pista area, did you see any uniformed personnel in this

23 area?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you see?

Page 1372

1 A. I saw soldiers in military uniform, policemen

2 in blue uniforms. They were moving around. There was

3 a vehicle next to the pista, a police car, a police

4 armoured vehicle, which had its barrels turned towards

5 us.

6 Q. Now, this police armoured vehicle with its

7 barrels pointed toward you, did you come to associate

8 that vehicle with a certain group of people?

9 A. Yes. One could see that the Serb army

10 controlled that vehicle and that they were holding us

11 in their sights in case of any rebellion or something.

12 Q. Now, the people that you saw and associated

13 with this vehicle, were these people that you saw

14 throughout your detention in Omarska?

15 A. No. I saw them for the first 10 or 12 days,

16 and through contacts and stories, we could come to the

17 conclusion that they came from Banja Luka.

18 Q. Now, these individuals that you saw for the

19 first 10 to 12 days in Omarska, what was their conduct

20 toward detainees? What did you observe of their

21 conduct toward detainees?

22 A. Well, they treated us roughly. They wouldn't

23 let us go to the toilet; they wouldn't give us water;

24 they wouldn't give us food. For the first six days I

25 didn't get a single piece of bread. It was on the

Page 1373

1 sixth day that I got some food.

2 Q. This abuse that you talk about, what time of

3 the day or night did this abuse occur?

4 A. This would happen during the day and during

5 the night. Every minute, every second, they wouldn't

6 leave us alone. There was always someone who was being

7 physically mistreated. Psychologically, of course,

8 they were taking people up there for some sort of

9 interrogation, to the premises above the restaurant.

10 People would come back; in 99 per cent of the cases,

11 they were beaten up. This started straight away, the

12 very first days.

13 Q. Now, this group that you believed came from

14 Banja Luka, what, if anything, did you observe of the

15 interaction between this group and the regular camp

16 personnel?

17 A. No. They contacted amongst themselves, as if

18 they all belonged to the same military unit, or the

19 police administration. They behaved in the same way,

20 the people from Banja Luka, as well as those from

21 Prijedor municipality. They cooperated; they

22 collaborated.

23 Q. Now, this unit you believed to be from Banja

24 Luka, when they were in the camp and they were engaging

25 in this abuse of detainees, did you ever observe anyone

Page 1374

1 intervene to stop this abuse?

2 A. No. No one prevented them.

3 Q. Did you ever observe anything that appeared

4 to you to indicate they were punished for this abuse?

5 A. No, never. No one was ever punished, nor

6 could we get the impression that they were being

7 contained in these efforts. On the contrary. They

8 were being praised when they physically mistreated the

9 detainees.

10 Q. Now, the camp personnel, other than this unit

11 you believed to be from Banja Luka, did you know any of

12 these camp personnel as people that you had been

13 acquainted with or seen before the camp?

14 A. I knew a couple of those who were permanently

15 in the camp. I knew Kvocka; I knew Koka, the man known

16 as Koka, who came to the camp on a daily basis. He

17 used to sell chicken and that's why he got the came

18 Koka, which means a chicken. I knew him for many

19 years. Then I know some others who would come to the

20 camp occasionally, but they were not guards in the

21 camp.

22 Q. Now, the ones that came to the camp on a

23 daily basis, you mentioned Kvocka and Koka, and you

24 said that Koka was a man you had known for some time

25 previously. When you saw him in the camp, what did you

Page 1375

1 see him doing in the camp?

2 A. Koka?

3 Q. Koka.

4 A. Koka kept lists; he was constantly compiling

5 lists. He would come to the room known as number 15.

6 Down there in front of the hangar, he would line us up

7 and make these lists. For what purpose, I don't know.

8 Q. During what period of time in the camp did

9 you see Koka in Omarska?

10 A. I would see him while I was in number 15, so

11 that would mean mid-June until the beginning of July.

12 Q. When you saw him, what kind of clothing did

13 he wear?

14 A. Koka, I think, wore a blue uniform.

15 Q. What kind of weapons, if any, did you see him

16 have?

17 A. I didn't see him with weapons.

18 Q. Now, you indicated that you knew him prior to

19 the camp. What was his ethnicity?

20 A. He was a Serb.

21 Q. You also mentioned that you knew Kvocka. Who

22 was Kvocka?

23 A. Kvocka was a policeman, and I knew him as an

24 employee of the SUP. I knew that for a while he was in

25 Omarska and in Prijedor. I knew his wife. His wife

Page 1376

1 lives some 100 metres from my house. She's roughly the

2 same generation as I. I knew his brothers-in-law, with

3 whom I grew up. I knew that he was their son-in-law.

4 My mother was friendly with his mother-in-law. She

5 would go and visit his apartment, and his

6 mother-in-law -- one year they went to the seaside

7 together, my mother, Kvocka, his wife, and his

8 mother-in-law.

9 Q. You indicated that you knew Kvocka's wife.

10 What was her father's last name?

11 A. Crnalic.

12 Q. Now, during what period of time did you see

13 Kvocka in the camp?

14 A. I would see him in the camp immediately as

15 soon as I came, the first few days, and then later --

16 then I didn't see him while I was in number 15, but

17 when I left number 15, I saw him again.

18 Q. Now, when you were on the pista, how often

19 would you see Kvocka in the camp?

20 A. I would see him non-stop, every day.

21 Q. And during what periods of the day or night

22 did you see him?

23 A. I would see him during the day, not at

24 night. He would enter, as far as I can remember, in a

25 190 Mercedes car. He would usually come to this corner

Page 1377

1 of the restaurant [indicates]. Then he would bring

2 cigarettes, food, drinks, and he would distribute it to

3 the guards more or less every day, and he carried --

4 Q. If I could just interrupt for a moment. You

5 pointed to an area of the restaurant. So that it's

6 clear on the record, what part of the building were you

7 pointing toward? The restaurant side that you

8 identified or --

9 A. The side where the restaurant is.

10 Q. And when you indicated he would come to this

11 area in a car, are you talking about him coming to the

12 area that is closest to the hangar or the area that is

13 farthest away from the hangar?

14 A. It would be the area on the corner of the

15 restaurant, that's where the car would usually be

16 parked, and he would take out things from the boot of

17 the car.

18 Q. When you're talking about the corner of the

19 restaurant, looking at the restaurant area, are you

20 talking about the corner of the building that is

21 closest to the hangar or the corner that is farthest

22 away?

23 A. The way you are looking at it, the right-hand

24 corner of the restaurant.

25 Q. So the corner that is farthest away from the

Page 1378

1 hangar.

2 A. Yes. Yes, further away from the hangar, the

3 area towards the "white house".

4 Q. Now, in addition to seeing Kvocka doing these

5 things, what else did you observe him do?

6 A. He was quite conspicuous. He wore gloves

7 with the fingers cut off. He carried a pump-action gun

8 all the time, known as Pumperica. And he would walk

9 around all the time, issue orders to them of some

10 sort. Simply he was their boss and they obeyed him.

11 Q. Now, in addition to walking around in the

12 camp, when, if ever, did you observe him go into any

13 buildings of the camp?

14 A. He would enter through the main entrance very

15 often. Then he would go upstairs to the offices or

16 downstairs. I don't know. He would go in and out

17 quite often, whenever he was in the camp. He was

18 constantly on the move.

19 Q. And when you say that he would enter through

20 the main entrance and go into this building, what

21 building are you referring to?

22 A. The building of the restaurant.

23 Q. Did you ever observe him go into any other

24 buildings?

25 A. Well, I wasn't really interested at the

Page 1379

1 time. He moved around everywhere, all over the camp.

2 He was walking around all the time. He was on the

3 move, as I said.

4 Q. Now, while you were in the camp, Kvocka

5 actually provided you, or made it possible for you to

6 have a package; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. And that package was from whom?

9 A. It was a package from my mother, who took the

10 parcel to his mother-in-law. He personally didn't

11 deliver it but the package reached me. True, all that

12 my mother had sent was not inside, but something was

13 inside, some underclothes and some food. This was

14 towards the end of July or the middle of July, around

15 there.

16 Q. Now, in addition to this one occasion where

17 Kvocka made it possible for you to have a package, were

18 there any other occasions when he made it possible for

19 you to have a package?

20 A. No, I personally received a package that

21 once. As far as I know, my mother told me that she

22 sent -- she carried packages a couple of times. But I

23 received one only once.

24 Q. In addition to these two individuals you have

25 named as individuals you knew prior to coming to the

Page 1380

1 camp, during your detention in Omarska, did you come to

2 know and recognise any other camp personnel?

3 A. Yes. In due course we learned more or less

4 all the names of the guards, Paspalj, Krkan, Krle.

5 Then there was someone known as Joja. He had his gun

6 pointed at us above the restaurant when we were lying

7 on the pista. Soskan, Pirvan, and others. During our

8 detention, we came to learn their names.

9 Q. Now, in relation to the person referred to as

10 Krkan, is that a proper name or a nickname?

11 A. No, it's a nickname.

12 Q. And how did you come to know and recognise

13 that person with the nickname Krkan?

14 A. Simply all the detainees knew it. Everyone

15 knew who was Krkan and who was Paspalj. They addressed

16 each other by name like that, so there was no

17 difficulty in learning who was who.

18 Q. And how often would you see Krkan in the camp

19 while you were in Omarska?

20 A. While I was at the pista, I would see him

21 while he was on duty. Then while I was in number 15, I

22 couldn't -- I was immobile, so I didn't go out and I

23 couldn't see them. Then when I moved from 15 to Mujo's

24 room, occasionally when we would go out into the fresh

25 air, they would let us out occasionally, so he would

Page 1381

1 come by, I would see him. But I saw him most often

2 during the first 10- or 12-day period.

3 Q. And when you saw him, what was he doing?

4 A. Nothing. He was walking around there.

5 Sometimes he would stand over there, where the round

6 circular glass is, at the entrance [indicates]. He

7 would just pass by there. I didn't have any particular

8 contact with him.

9 Q. And you say that sometimes he would stand

10 where the circular glass is. What building are you

11 referring to there?

12 A. Yes. The building of the restaurant, the

13 entrance to the restaurant.

14 Q. When you saw Krkan, what weapons, if any, did

15 he have?

16 A. I think he carried an automatic rifle.

17 Q. Now, you indicated some other names as well.

18 For example, Paspalj. How did you come to know him?

19 A. He would come into Mujo's room frequently and

20 physically mistreat the detainees. He would select at

21 random. He was drunk all the time and he would come in

22 and shoot inside, he would beat people, he and Soskan,

23 and the others. They were there where the kombi is,

24 the entrance near Mujo's room, there used to be a kombi

25 van, and they used to eat and drink there. And then

Page 1382

1 when they felt like it, they would enter our room and

2 mistreat us, abuse us, physically, psychologically.

3 Q. Now, when this mistreatment occurred by

4 Paspalj and the person you referred to as Soskan, when,

5 if ever, did camp personnel intervene in this

6 mistreatment?

7 A. No. No one ever intervened. They could do

8 what they wanted. Nobody cautioned them or reprimanded

9 them or punished them. Nothing.

10 Q. You also mentioned a person by the name of

11 Krle. Would that be a proper name or a nickname?

12 A. A nickname.

13 Q. And how often would you see this person in

14 Omarska camp?

15 A. I would see him too during the first period.

16 While I was in number 15, I didn't see him. And then

17 when I left number 15 and went to Mujo's room again,

18 during the last days of my detention, I was taken out,

19 I think, three times in the evening. I was

20 blackmailed; they wanted money from me. And he would

21 stand next to the entrance with this Brk, who was in

22 the camp. He would come in a green Mercedes. I think

23 he was a taxi driver in Omarska before the war. And I

24 was blackmailed. They wanted 100.000 German marks from

25 me to be transported by helicopter to Belgrade, or

Page 1383

1 50.000 for Prijedor.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

3 Witness, for interrupting you.

4 Excuse me, Ms. Hollis, but I think

5 Mr. Nikolic wishes to intervene.

6 Do you have any objection, Mr. Nikolic?

7 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

8 I'm just referring to what you said as the president,

9 that we should object if there is a good reason. I

10 think that the Defence counsel of the accused Kos has

11 good reason to do this now. I would like the

12 Prosecutor to limit herself to the examination as

13 regarding the circumstances that Witness Beganovic

14 would be asked about as indicated. I think that the

15 Prosecutor has expanded beyond what was stated in the

16 submission, beyond the scope of what was stated.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

18 Ms. Hollis.

19 MS. HOLLIS: I'm not sure I understand the

20 objection, Your Honour. I asked a question that, the

21 Prosecution submits, was relevant. The witness has

22 answered the question, and we submit that the

23 information being provided is relevant. I'm not aware

24 that there is a limitation on the scope of questioning

25 in direct, other than relevance, compared so some

Page 1384

1 limitation that may exist on cross-examination. So I

2 must confess I'm not quite clear of what the nature of

3 the objection is.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

5 Mr. Nikolic, can you explain better what is the grounds

6 for your objection? The questions are beyond the scope

7 of the indictment or what? What do you mean?

8 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'm holding the

9 Prosecution's submission of the 23rd of February this

10 year, compiled in accordance with Rule 65(C), and the

11 Prosecutor has given an attachment and the first

12 witness is Emir Beganovic on that list. In accordance

13 with Rule 65 ter (iv), under (C), the Prosecutor has

14 indicated which points in the indictment each witness

15 will be testifying about. That is how the Defence

16 understands it.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 Mr. Nikolic, do you feel that the question goes beyond

19 the indictment? It is the indictment that is important

20 here.

21 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] This particular

22 question to the witness is beyond the scope of the

23 indictment. That is the position of the Defence.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

25 do you understand the objection now?

Page 1385

1 MS. HOLLIS: I do, Your Honour. And the

2 Prosecution's position is that it is not beyond the

3 scope of the indictment. The indictment talks about

4 conditions in the camp; it talks about abuse of all the

5 prisoners in the camp. This relates to that matter.

6 It relates to a person who has been identified as a

7 personnel within the camp. It is being related to you

8 by a witness who was in the camp and observed it, and

9 now is the subject of about what he is about to discuss

10 with you.

11 Also, Your Honours, part of the indictment is

12 that money was taken from people. He's talking about a

13 blackmail situation here. We believe that this

14 evidence is relevant to and within the scope of this

15 indictment.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

17 Mr. Nikolic, do you wish to respond?

18 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] When we made

19 our objection, we had in mind the statement disclosed

20 by the Prosecution about the testimony of

21 Mr. Beganovic, and on the basis of that statement, a

22 submission made in which the Prosecutor was very

23 specific, in accordance with Rule 65 ter. And that is

24 why we thought that the Prosecutor was going beyond the

25 scope. If that is not so, then this submission would

Page 1386

1 not have been necessary, then the witness could have

2 been called and questioned about all the circumstances

3 related to the camp. That is the understanding of the

4 Defence.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

6 Mr. Nikolic, what we are talking about now is still the

7 indictment. Rule 65 ter is a rule applying to

8 organisation, but the scope of the examination-in-chief

9 is always based on the indictment, and it is the

10 opinion of the Chamber that this question does not go

11 beyond the scope of the indictment. Therefore, the

12 Chamber overrules the objection and asks Ms. Hollis to

13 continue.


15 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you were describing three

16 incidents where you were called out of Mujo's room, and

17 Krle and Brk were involved in those incidents, and you

18 indicated something about money. Could you repeat

19 again what happened on those incidents that you were

20 called out, those incidents involving Krle and Brk?

21 A. This took place, as I said, in the last --

22 during the last six or seven days of my stay in the

23 camp. One night my name was called out, they called

24 out my name and my surname, and I thought I would be

25 physically mistreated. However, when I got out, I saw

Page 1387

1 Brk, whom I had come to know very well in the camp. He

2 used to come to the camp every day. And they spoke to

3 me in a normal way. Krle was standing there as well,

4 together with one or two other guards. There were

5 three or four of them in total.

6 Before me Muharem Murselovic was taken out,

7 and when he was taken back I was called out. Brk

8 started talking to me. He told me he knew I had some

9 money, and if I wanted to remain alive, that I should

10 give them 100.000 German marks and that they would

11 transport me by helicopter to Belgrade. There was

12 another option. I was supposed to give them 50.000

13 German marks for me to be released in Prijedor, in

14 town. I told them I didn't have any money. I told

15 them that the money had burnt out, but they said they

16 knew I had some money somewhere, buried somewhere, and

17 that I could go back and dig it out. And they said

18 that they would come back on the next day and that we

19 would talk about it again.

20 I don't know whether they came back on the

21 following night or two nights after that, but it was

22 the same group of people. They were standing outside,

23 and the conversation ended like the first time.

24 On the third occasion, when Brk called me

25 out, I don't remember Krle being present there. We had

Page 1388

1 reached a kind of agreement. He was supposed to put me

2 in his car boot and he was supposed to take me to

3 Prijedor and let me try and find my money. However, at

4 that time there were already rumours that the camp

5 would be dissolved. So Brk never came back and that

6 was the end of the story.

7 Q. Did you ever provide any money to Brk or any

8 of the others?

9 A. No, not to Brk, but I did while I was at the

10 pista, during the first five or six days. On one

11 occasion they allowed me to go to the toilet, which was

12 next to the restaurant building. It was actually right

13 next to the entrance, on the left side of the

14 entrance. And a man followed me. He was from the

15 group of the people from Banja Luka who were manning

16 the personnel carrier. He was a bit taller than me,

17 perhaps my age -- a bit shorter than me, I'm sorry. He

18 pointed his rifle at me when I was in the toilet and he

19 told me to take out everything I had in my pockets.

20 There was about 1.200 or 1.300 German marks in my

21 pockets. This is what he took. I had some more money

22 but he thought that it was all. And he told me that if

23 I ever mentioned this to anyone that I would be

24 killed.

25 Q. Now, in these instances that Brk and Krle

Page 1389

1 took you out and Brk asked you for money, did Krle ever

2 intervene to stop this?

3 A. No, he didn't intervene. I had a feeling

4 that he was there with them, that he was doing the same

5 job, that he had a deal with them, that he was actually

6 with the group that had come to try and extort money

7 from me.

8 Q. Now, you mentioned that the name Krkan is a

9 nickname. Did you ever hear that nickname --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- referred to -- used referring to more than

12 one person in the camp?

13 A. No, I did not.

14 Q. And with Krle, you've noticed -- you have

15 testified that that is a nickname as well. Did you

16 ever hear that nickname used toward more than one

17 person in the camp?

18 A. No. Only for him.

19 Q. Now, you indicated that interrogations began

20 in the camp very early on; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. They started -- I think it was a

22 Saturday when I arrived in the camp, on the 30th of

23 May. I know that they started on Monday, the

24 interrogations, because this cousin of mine, Danovic,

25 he was taken on Monday morning for interrogation. This

Page 1390

1 is how I know that the interrogations had started right

2 away.

3 Q. Now, based on your observations, what group

4 of people were involved with these interrogations?

5 A. Mostly Serbian intellectuals, police

6 inspectors, the people who used to be police inspectors

7 before the war in the SUP, in Prijedor. They were the

8 ones who conducted the interrogations in most of the

9 cases.

10 Q. Again, based on your observations in the

11 camp, what difference in treatment of the detainees, if

12 any, did you observe between the time that the

13 interrogators were in camp and the time that they

14 weren't in camp?

15 A. Well, it was more or less the same. However,

16 while they were conducting interrogations, people were

17 beaten up in most of the cases. Ninety-nine per cent

18 of them would come back badly beaten up. And this took

19 place in every office. They had a kind of cube that we

20 were supposed to kneel on during the interrogation, and

21 people were being beaten up. They were trying to

22 extort some confessions, signatures. They were

23 supposed to sign a confession. And this always

24 involved beatings, no matter what you told them,

25 whether you participated or not in any political

Page 1391

1 activities, whether you had been involved in any

2 misconduct. But people were always beaten up, and they

3 would -- they had to sign statements under duress.

4 Q. Now, during the time that you were in Omarska

5 camp, the detainees in the camp, from your

6 observations, if you can estimate, how many people were

7 in the camp?

8 A. According to my estimate, there would have

9 been approximately 3.000 people.

10 Q. And these detainees in the camp, what was

11 their gender?

12 A. Sorry. I didn't understand your question.

13 Q. Yes. The detainees in the camp, what was

14 their gender? Men and women? Men or women?

15 A. Oh, the gender, you mean. Well, they were

16 men, most of them. There were about 30 or maybe 35

17 women. The rest were men. They were even children of

18 15 years of age, perhaps even younger, during the first

19 days of my stay in the camp. And there were also

20 elderly people over the age of 90, for example.

21 Q. Now, you indicated that you knew at least

22 some of the people in the camp. The people that you

23 knew in Omarska, what was their ethnicity?

24 A. Of the inmates or the guards?

25 Q. Of the detainees.

Page 1392

1 A. Most of them were Muslims, but there were

2 quite a few Croats as well.

3 Q. What type of clothing were these detainees

4 wearing while they were held in Omarska?

5 A. Some of them were wearing even pyjamas, and

6 some had normal clothes, jackets and so on. People

7 were in slippers or barefoot. Some were in their

8 pyjamas, as I say. But most of them were wearing

9 normal civilian clothes, like jeans. There were people

10 even in suits.

11 Q. Could you describe for the Court the general

12 conditions that existed in the camp while you were held

13 in Omarska.

14 A. The conditions were disastrous. It is very

15 hard to describe them. I don't have the right words to

16 describe them. It was horrible. People walked around

17 bleeding. Their wounds were festering. They had

18 litres of pus on their backs. They were badly beaten

19 up. Fifty per cent of the people had dysentery. The

20 hygiene was nonexistent. It was a disaster. It was

21 like in a toilet which was not functioning. The toilet

22 was not functioning. People were sleeping there.

23 People were eating there. I really don't have words to

24 describe it. You couldn't even call it a camp. It was

25 a disaster.

Page 1393

1 Q. Now, you've indicated that people walked

2 around with wounds that were festering, bleeding, and

3 had been beaten. How often did you observe this kind

4 of abuse on people?

5 A. You could see it everywhere, at every

6 corner. All of us were like that. You could hardly

7 find one single person without wounds. It would have

8 been a miracle. And we had all lost weight, between

9 20, 30 kilos. We were like skeletons. I was weighing

10 49 kilos when I arrived in Manjaca. My normal weight

11 is 75, 76 kilos.

12 Q. While you were in the camp, did you yourself

13 ever observe people being physically abused?

14 A. I observed it every day.

15 Q. And what type of abuse did you yourself

16 observe?

17 A. Both physical and psychological type of

18 abuse, but mostly it was physical abuse.

19 Q. And how soon after you arrived at the camp

20 did you begin to see this type of abuse?

21 A. During the first days.

22 Q. And how soon after you first arrived in the

23 camp did you begin to see these visible signs of this

24 physical abuse?

25 A. After the first several days of my stay in

Page 1394

1 the camp.

2 Q. Now, you mentioned that you yourself saw

3 detainees being physically abused. When, if ever, did

4 you see any camp personnel intervene and stop that

5 abuse?

6 A. I never saw anyone preventing that. But

7 occasionally, from time to time, a guard would help an

8 individual, take him out of a certain room and

9 transferred him to another room. It was a kind of

10 help. But it was on an individual basis. But their

11 bosses didn't do anything to prevent them from

12 mistreating the inmates. It was uncommon in Omarska.

13 Q. During your detention in Omarska, how often,

14 if ever, did you hear sounds as of people in pain?

15 A. Every day. Every day, every hour, non-stop.

16 Q. What did you hear?

17 A. Screams, moans. While I was in Mujo's room,

18 for example, when the interrogations were taking place

19 upstairs, we had a feeling as if furniture was being

20 broken. We heard screams, moans, and sometimes it was

21 harder for us to listen to those screams than to be

22 personally exposed to beatings. People tried not to

23 hear that. It was -- it was beyond description.

24 Terrible noise.

25 Q. When you were on the pista, where did you

Page 1395

1 hear these sounds coming from?

2 A. The sounds would come from the restaurant

3 building, from the "white house" in most of the cases.

4 Q. And how loud were these sounds that you have

5 described?

6 A. They were so loud that you could hear them in

7 every part of the camp: on the pista, at the entrance,

8 at the entrance to Mujo's room, also coming from the

9 "white house." They were so loud that you could hear

10 them in every part of the camp. You could even hear

11 them in room number 15, or coming from room number 15,

12 coming from the outside.

13 Q. Now, in relation to what you observed in the

14 camp, were you ever present in an area when

15 individuals, other detainees, were called out of that

16 area?

17 A. I was both present and personally called

18 out.

19 Q. In your presence, how often were people

20 called out?

21 A. Every day, all the time.

22 Q. When did this begin?

23 A. It began at the beginning of the month of

24 June. It started on Monday, on the second or third day

25 of my stay in the camp. People were called out from

Page 1396

1 the very beginning, and this went on until the end.

2 Q. Now, these people that were called out, were

3 any of them returned to the area where you were?

4 A. Sometimes they would return, badly beat up,

5 but many of them didn't come back. And in many cases

6 we don't know what happened to those people. We

7 haven't heard of them ever since and we don't know

8 where they are today.

9 Q. Now, regarding these people who would be

10 called out, and when they came back they had been

11 beaten up, when, if ever, did you observe these people

12 being given medical care for these injuries?

13 A. Never. No one ever received any medical

14 care. We never thought that we would be given medical

15 care. There was simply no one to turn to for medical

16 care, because everybody was involved in beatings.

17 Q. Now, among the camp detainees, were there any

18 doctors?

19 A. Yes, there were doctors, Muslim doctors. But

20 the only one who dared offer some help was Dr. Esad

21 Sadikovic. He helped us as much as he could, either

22 with his advice, or sometimes, for example, he would

23 assist Serb soldiers who had been wounded at the front

24 or wounded in a shooting incident. So he would be

25 called to intervene and help them.

Page 1397

1 And on one or two occasions, he brought some

2 kind of powder and an injection with one single needle,

3 and he was making injections with that needle, and

4 sometimes he would give an injection to the person who

5 was in a critical state. But he always had to use the

6 same needle; he was unable to change it. And he would

7 bring some kind of powder from time to time.

8 As regards other doctors, there were few of

9 them in the camp, but they didn't dare help anyone.

10 Q. This Dr. Sadikovic, is this the same

11 Dr. Sadikovic you testified about earlier?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When was the last time you saw Dr. Sadikovic?

14 A. In the evening of the 5th of August he was

15 taken out, and as far as I know -- he had been with me

16 in Mujo's room all the time. We slept next to each

17 other. And as far as I remember, he was taken out

18 around 10.00 p.m. His name was called out and he left

19 the room through the main entrance, through the door.

20 And I didn't see anything, but I heard this from Fuad,

21 who was standing at the door, that he was outside

22 talking to Prcac for a few minutes. And after that,

23 all I know --

24 Q. Mr. Beganovic, if I can interrupt, please.

25 If I could ask you to restrict your testimony to what

Page 1398

1 you personally observed.

2 A. Well, all I know is that on the 5th of August

3 he was taken out, in the evening, from Mujo's room --

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. -- and that's all I know.

6 Q. Thank you. During the time that you were

7 held in Omarska camp, how often, if ever, did you hear

8 derogatory terms or derogatory words directed toward

9 the detainees?

10 A. Well, derogatory terms were a normal way of

11 communication. They never addressed us in a polite

12 manner. They always cursed at us. They called us

13 balijas, Turks, Alijas, mother-fuckers, and the like.

14 This was the normal type of behaviour towards us.

15 Q. And the word "balijas," what does that mean?

16 A. I don't know. It's some kind of derogatory

17 term for Muslims.

18 Q. At the times that these derogatory terms

19 would be directed towards detainees in the camp, did

20 you ever observe any camp personnel intervene to stop

21 this?

22 A. No, never.

23 Q. You indicated in your earlier testimony that

24 you didn't receive any food until several days after

25 you arrived at the camp. Is that correct?

Page 1399

1 A. Yes, that's correct. I got -- I received the

2 food only on the sixth day.

3 Q. Now, after the sixth day, the first day that

4 you got food, after that, how often were you fed?

5 A. After that they formed groups of people,

6 consisting of 30 people, and they gave us food once a

7 day. But during the first 15 or 20 days, not all of

8 the detainees could be fed, so sometimes we would eat

9 every other day or every three days. There wasn't

10 enough time. But later on things got a little better,

11 and we were given food once a day. But very often the

12 food was watery and of very poor quality, and we would

13 have been better off not eating it. We all suffered

14 from dysentery. It was probably because of the water.

15 It wasn't drinkable water, but we had to drink it, of

16 course.

17 Q. You indicated that people would be taken in

18 or would be fed in groups of 30. When, if ever, did

19 you observe people being abused as they would go to and

20 back from their meals?

21 A. Not only did I observe, I was also beaten

22 up. In 90 per cent of the cases, when we went to eat,

23 we would be beaten, both on the way to the restaurant

24 and back. Very often while we were in the corridor,

25 having left the restaurant, they would pour water on

Page 1400

1 the floor and they would throw things on the floor so

2 people would trip down, they would slip, and that they

3 took the opportunity to beat us. And this happened

4 with the same -- with all groups, until they become

5 exhausted. Sometimes they would be very tired, so

6 people would pass unbeaten, they were lucky. But this

7 took place every day, every single day.

8 Q. And you say sometimes they would become

9 tired, so groups would pass without being beaten. Who

10 do you mean by "they," when you say "they would become

11 tired"?

12 A. Well, the Serb guards.

13 Q. And where exactly did you eat your meals?

14 A. In the restaurant, in the main hall. We had

15 three minutes to run to the restaurant, to eat the food

16 and leave the restaurant. Each group had only three

17 minutes for that. And of course we would be beaten

18 during those three minutes. Some people would be

19 beaten only once with a club, but some were beaten as

20 many as ten times, for example, during that time.

21 Q. When, if ever, did you see camp personnel

22 intervene to stop these beatings?

23 A. No. No, they never intervened. Actually,

24 they ordered them to do it. Their bosses ordered them

25 that.

Page 1401

1 Q. Now, you've indicated that you were held in

2 Mujo's room and there were perhaps 600 people in that

3 room, is that correct, on this first night that you

4 were in the room?

5 A. That night, according to my estimate, there

6 were more than 1.000 people in that room, and on the

7 next morning, because the situation was horrible, half

8 of the people were transferred to the pista, involving

9 myself, and the other half remained in that room. But

10 it was still crowded.

11 Q. Now, when you went back to Mujo's room later,

12 how many people were in that room?

13 A. There were about 600 or 700 people.

14 Q. What were the conditions like in that room

15 with all of those people in the room? How much space

16 did you have in that room to move about?

17 A. The space we had was not enough for all of us

18 to lie on our backs. We all had to lie on one side so

19 that everybody would have some room to lie down.

20 Q. While you were in room 15, in the hangar, how

21 many people were in that room?

22 A. I think between 400 and 450.

23 Q. And how much space did you have in that room

24 while you were there?

25 A. Well, the situation was more or less the same

Page 1402

1 as in Mujo's room.

2 Q. Now, you also indicated for a short period of

3 time you were held in a room you called the garage.

4 How many people were in that room?

5 A. In that room, when I was there, there were up

6 to 180 people, and literally we didn't have the

7 possibility -- we didn't have enough room to raise our

8 hand, raise our arms. Once you did that, you no longer

9 had any room left to put it down. I spent one or two

10 nights and two days there. We were trying to make as

11 much room for ourselves as possible, but it was

12 horrible. We stuck to each other. Luckily, the window

13 was broken so we could get some air. Otherwise, we

14 would have all suffocated.

15 At the beginning, there were over 200 people

16 in that room, when they brought people from Kozarac,

17 during the first days of the camp. There were even

18 dead people there. At one point, they opened fire

19 through the metal door in the garage, and as a result

20 of that some people died and were wounded.

21 Q. Were those people removed from the room after

22 they died and were wounded?

23 A. In due course, but not straight away.

24 Q. While you were --

25 A. Those who were wounded were not, but those

Page 1403

1 who were dead were carried out afterwards.

2 Q. While you were in this camp, from the 30th of

3 May until early August, what was the smell in this

4 camp?

5 A. Dreadful. There was a terrible stench in all

6 the premises, in all parts of the camp. We all had

7 lice. We were unshaven, hungry. We were like

8 skeletons. It was really horrific.

9 Q. Now, you've mentioned several times about

10 abuse that occurred to you while you were in the camp.

11 How often were you abused while you were in --

12 physically abused while you were in Omarska camp?

13 A. I was called out three times on an individual

14 basis, but I was frequently one of a group that was

15 physically mistreated. But three times I personally

16 was called out.

17 Q. And then you say that you were frequently

18 part of a group that was abused. When you were abused

19 as a part of this group, what was done to you?

20 A. Usually when we would go for meals, these

21 things would happen. Sometimes they would run into

22 Mujo's room and beat a couple of people and kick them,

23 and then they would go out, for no reason. We didn't

24 know why we had been beaten. They just felt like it.

25 They would come in and beat us up a little. If you

Page 1404

1 were close to the door, you would have a greater chance

2 of being hit, so we avoided being closer to the door,

3 precisely because of these random stormings by

4 individuals.

5 Q. And when did this type of abuse of the group

6 begin? How long after you had been in the camp?

7 A. Very soon after we arrived, after five or six

8 days, these beatings started. Actually, at the

9 interrogation, the beatings started the same day, that

10 is, on Monday. They started to force people to confess

11 through physical force.

12 Q. Now, you've talked about three separate

13 occasions where you were called out, you were singled

14 out to be called out, and I'd like to ask you some

15 questions about those occasions.

16 Now, on the first occasion that that

17 occurred, when did that happen? How long had you been

18 in the camp?

19 A. Maybe 10 or 11 days.

20 Q. Was this while you were still being held on

21 the pista?

22 A. Yes, we were at the pista, but I think it

23 started raining, so we entered the restaurant itself.

24 They took us inside, and then a man came in olive-grey

25 uniform. He had a white military police belt, a

Page 1405

1 truncheon and a pistol. He called me out by first and

2 last name. I hadn't known him from before. I later

3 learnt that his name was Dragan. I learned this from

4 Nedjo, the owner of the Europa Restaurant in Omarska.

5 He was his nephew, actually.

6 Q. Did you recognise this Dragan as a regular

7 guard in the camp?

8 A. No. No. He came from the outside. He

9 entered privately, as a private individual.

10 Q. What happened, then, after he called you

11 outside?

12 A. He took me out. I thought he was taking me

13 for interrogation. However, he took me outside this

14 door of the restaurant. And then I saw Janjic, Nikica

15 Janjic, a man I had known from before in Prijedor. I

16 had a conflict with him a year and a half before I

17 reached the camp. And I stopped, and he said, "You see

18 how sometimes have changed? I'm going to slit your

19 throat tonight."

20 Q. Who said that?

21 A. Nikica Janjic.

22 Q. Where were you when he told you this? What

23 area of the camp were you?

24 A. I was -- when he said that to me, I was at

25 the doorway, at the main door of the restaurant.

Page 1406

1 Q. Were you inside the restaurant or outside?

2 A. Just in front of the entrance, maybe a metre

3 or two away from the building.

4 Q. Now, after he told you he was going to "slit

5 your throat tonight," what happened then?

6 A. Then Dragan said, "Go back. We'll come to

7 pick you up in half an hour." So I went back inside,

8 into the restaurant. I said goodbye to my friends and

9 acquaintances. I told them who had come and what he

10 had said. And I believed that he would kill me,

11 actually that he would slaughter me.

12 Q. What happened then?

13 A. What happened was that they came half an hour

14 later. Again Dragan came inside; he called my name. I

15 went outside, and as I was going out, I saw (redacted)

16 (redacted) following me. And at that very moment as I

17 came out, Dragan, as far as I can remember, started

18 hitting me with a stick on the head and the neck, and

19 he said that we should go to the "white house".

20 Q. Now, you mentioned --

21 A. And then (redacted) came running after me.

22 Q. If we could stop there for just a moment.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis.

24 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me

Page 1407

1 for interrupting you for a moment, but I should like to

2 say two things. First, you have been examining this

3 witness for more or less two hours. You announced that

4 it would take two hours. Perhaps you could link up

5 your questions a little. We plan to make a break at a

6 quarter to one.

7 And I take advantage of this interruption to

8 say something else. The witness spoke at length about

9 nicknames, Krkan, Krle, Brk, and others. Perhaps we

10 should find out from the witness the proper names,

11 because as you know, this is a public hearing and the

12 public may not know the link between the nickname and

13 the proper names. I'm sure you will be able to do

14 this, as I have asked you to. Thank you.

15 MS. HOLLIS: I will certainly ask that of the

16 witness, Your Honour.

17 Q. You mentioned seeing a person you called

18 Rezak Hukanovic. Who was he?

19 A. He was a showman, and a poet, and a

20 well-known figure in town.

21 Q. And had you known him prior to coming to the

22 camp?

23 A. Yes. I have known him all my life.

24 Q. And what is his ethnicity?

25 A. Muslim.

Page 1408

1 Q. Now, you indicated that you were taken to the

2 "white house", and as you were taken there, you were

3 being beaten. What happened when you arrived at the

4 "white house"?

5 A. When we arrived at the "white house", I was

6 put into the second room to the right. Dragan followed

7 me and Nikica Janjic, (redacted),

8 and Asif Kapetanovic joined us. The two of them were

9 in the second room to the left. They physically

10 mistreated me, that is, Dragan and Nikica Janjic,

11 whereas the other two were mistreated, as I saw later,

12 that Zigic was there, Dusko Knezovic, known as Duca,

13 and Saponja, Slavko Saponja's son. I think his name is

14 Dragan. He's a handball player from Prijedor. We used

15 to be friends. Saponja would occasionally come into

16 this room on the right-hand side to join in on the

17 physical mistreatment against me.

18 When it stopped, we went out of the "white

19 house". Zigic told us to bend down and to lap water

20 like dogs, which we all did. And then afterwards they

21 said that we should head towards the restaurant.

22 At that moment, these three went on and

23 Dragan took me back into the "white house" and hit me a

24 couple of more times and shoved me into the first room

25 to the left.

Page 1409

1 Q. Now, you have indicated that Zigic, Dusko

2 Knezovic and Saponja also were involved in this abuse.

3 How did you know Zigic?

4 A. I recognised Zigic because -- I didn't know

5 him well before the war, but I came to know him well

6 when, some 15 days before the camps were established,

7 he mistreated (redacted) and fired shots round his

8 feet. I was some 10 or 15 metres away watching him.

9 That is when I learnt his identity. And there were

10 rumours already in town that he was going around

11 mistreating people. They had a van which they drove

12 around in and mistreated citizens from.

13 Q. Now, regarding Dusko Knezovic, how did you

14 know him?

15 A. I heard in the camp his name, so I don't know

16 him from before the war.

17 Q. And you have indicated that Saponja was a

18 handball player. How did you know him?

19 A. Yes. I know him more or less from birth.

20 He's a little younger than me. Our parents were

21 friends, house friends, and his parents' wedding took

22 place in my family home because he and my father were

23 friends. They didn't have very good accommodation when

24 they moved to Prijedor, so my father prepared the

25 wedding in my house, in our house, so that we know each

Page 1410

1 other all our lives. We used to meet and socialise.

2 Q. What was your physical condition after this

3 beating you received in the "white house"?

4 A. My physical condition was such that a couple

5 of hours later, I really started feeling the pain. I

6 simply couldn't move. My head was all swollen. It was

7 black and blue, covered in blood. My legs were beaten

8 up, my back. I had received at least a couple of

9 hundred blows on my neck and head. So that when they

10 shoved me into this first room to the left, where

11 apparently the boys who had attacked Prijedor were

12 detained, there were about ten of them, and they were

13 in the same condition as I was, they couldn't move.

14 And then the guard came later on, it was

15 nighttime, he switched on his lamp and he said,

16 "Slavko, you mother-fucker, there are black people in

17 your group." I saw that he was referring to me. And

18 if he did refer to me, I was not black. This was a

19 private settling of accounts. I have nothing to do

20 with these guys. I don't belong to their group.

21 Then he came round and whispered to me,

22 "Surely, how could they do such a thing to someone for

23 nothing, for no reason?" So I saw that he was

24 sincere. I told him who I was, and later on I asked

25 him whether he could take me back to the pista because

Page 1411

1 I belonged to that group, and he said he would try but

2 that he couldn't promise anything.

3 And then he did come in the morning. He took

4 me out and took me to the hangar, to wash up a little,

5 and then he took me back to the pista. And at the

6 pista, none of my friends or relatives could recognise

7 me. My head was swollen like this [indicates], and I

8 was black, as black as this ELMO here.

9 Q. Now, you mentioned that this room that you

10 were thrown into, this room on the left, that there

11 were several other men in that room, and you also

12 mentioned that the guard looking into the room said

13 something to a person called Slavko. Who is this

14 Slavko that you testified about?

15 A. Slavko is a friend of mine from early

16 childhood. We went to elementary school together. He

17 was a private entrepreneur. We would socialise often.

18 He was a Croat by ethnicity. The whole town knew him.

19 He was charged with having led the attack on Prijedor,

20 if ever there was one. Where he was captured, I don't

21 know. He had come a couple of days before I entered

22 the "white house", this room where he was in. He was

23 walking, he was on his feet. I saw him when he arrived

24 that day. And when I found him in this room, he didn't

25 know what he was saying. He was dazed, he

Page 1412

1 was hallucinating. One expected him to pass away at

2 any moment.

3 Q. And did you notice any physical bruising or

4 other injuries on him?

5 A. There were ten or so of them inside. All of

6 them had clearly been beaten up, and they could hardly

7 walk because they couldn't move even in a lying

8 position.

9 Q. What was Slavko's last name?

10 A. Slavko Ecimovic, known as Ecim.

11 Q. Now, during this first incident, during the

12 beatings that you described in this first incident, did

13 any camp personnel intervene to stop these beatings?

14 A. No, no one ever.

15 Q. Now, you indicated there were three separate

16 times you were called out for beatings. The second

17 time you were called out, how soon was that after the

18 first time?

19 A. Two days later.

20 Q. And at the time you were called out for this

21 beating, where were you being held?

22 A. At that time, we had left number 15 and we

23 were on the grass next to the "white house". We were

24 sitting there, and this Koka was making some sort of a

25 list of the detainees in number 15, taking down their

Page 1413

1 names and nicknames. Why they needed the list, I don't

2 know. I was in that group just then, the group from

3 number 15.

4 Q. Now, as you were in this group by the "white

5 house" and Koka was taking down these names, who, if

6 any, of the camp personnel did you see?

7 A. Yes. I saw, next to the "white house", a

8 guard with the nickname Ckalja near the entrance, and

9 at the other corner, Kvocka was standing. He was the

10 leader, commander.

11 Q. And when you saw Kvocka there, what was he

12 doing?

13 A. Nothing. He was just standing there. And

14 when I noticed Kvocka, I also saw Nikica Janjic coming

15 towards the "white house" and approaching Kvocka.

16 Q. Now, is this the same Nikica Janjic you have

17 testified about previously?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what did you observe then?

20 A. I observed them talking and that they were

21 exchanging something. Whether it was money or paper, I

22 cannot tell for sure, but it wasn't an object. It was

23 something like a piece of paper that they were

24 exchanging or money.

25 Q. And when you say that you saw them talking

Page 1414

1 and they were exchanging something, to whom are you

2 referring?

3 A. I'm referring to Kvocka, the commander, and

4 Nikica Janjic.

5 Q. Now, what happened after that?

6 A. Then Nikica headed towards the group where I

7 was, and he said, "Beganovic, come on, get up." I got

8 up and I approached the guard nicknamed Ckalja, and I

9 said, "I don't want to go to the 'white house'. Look

10 what he did to me two days ago, and he has threatened

11 to slaughter me. He wants to kill me, and I'm not

12 going inside." And Ckalja said that he guaranteed that

13 he would not physically mistreat me, that I should just

14 go inside for a talk. So what could I do? I went in.

15 As soon as I got in, this same Nikica Janjic

16 started hitting me. Ckalja didn't follow us inside; he

17 stayed outside probably. And then another small

18 soldier, short, he was short with long hair and a

19 rather oversized coat on him, and he was standing in

20 the doorway with an automatic rifle, I suppose so that

21 I shouldn't run out. And Nikica immediately started

22 hitting me with the handle of his pistol -- it was a

23 Colt, I remember -- on the head, so that my whole head

24 was beaten up. I received a large number of blows, and

25 my skull cracked in a number of places, and then he

Page 1415

1 kicked me as well. And then he suddenly stopped. I

2 said to him, it would be better for him to take that

3 pistol and kill me or to leave me alone, why doesn't he

4 choose one of the two. And he said that he had

5 intended to kill me but that he had changed his mind

6 and that he wouldn't kill me. Then I said, "Well,

7 leave me alone, then, if you're not going to kill me.

8 Don't come to the camp anymore to seek your revenge."

9 I said that I didn't take it against him, let things

10 end there, and after the war ended, there would be no

11 problems between us, I said, when this situation blows

12 over. He said, "You see what Kvocka gave me and where

13 you plan to go." And he took out a piece of paper that

14 said, "Emir Beganovic, kop 2." He took this paper back

15 and put it in his pocket, but he said, "My mother has

16 sworn me not to kill you, and that is why I've changed

17 my mind."

18 Then I asked him to give me some water, and

19 he sent this soldier to bring a can of water. He did.

20 I washed up. He gave me a cigarette to light. We

21 stayed on and talked a little while. And then I asked

22 him for a couple more cigarettes for later. He gave

23 them to me. And on the way out, we shook hands and

24 said goodbye. Everybody could see this. He went off,

25 and he kept his word; he didn't come back again.

Page 1416

1 Q. Now, you've indicated that at some point he

2 handed you -- he reached in his pocket and handed you

3 or showed you a note or showed you something, and he

4 said, "See what Kvocka gave me and where you are to

5 go," and the note said "kop 2". What is "kop 2"?

6 A. He said -- as far as I know, "kop 2" are pits

7 where iron ore was mined, because Omarska was an iron

8 ore mine. And these are very large pits, very deep, in

9 which -- as far as I know, they were filled with water,

10 and the rumour in the camp was that the dead were being

11 thrown into those pits.

12 Q. Now, you indicate that after this incident,

13 Janjic did not beat you again. I'm going to move on to

14 the third incident, but I believe we're going to have a

15 pause before the third incident.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I had

17 hoped to finish the examination-in-chief, and that is

18 why I didn't interrupt earlier on.

19 Perhaps, Witness, we're going to ask you to

20 leave the courtroom in the company of the usher for a

21 break. The break will, in principle, last 30 minutes.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

24 how much more time do you need, please, to finish the

25 examination-in-chief?

Page 1417

1 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, this witness will

2 speak about one more specific incident of beating that

3 occurred in the camp. The witness will also testify

4 about when he left the camp. And then the witness will

5 testify about events that occurred as he was taken from

6 that camp to another camp, how long he was in that

7 camp, where he was taken from there. And then also

8 evidence about the effects of the camp on him and his

9 family and the effects of being forcibly removed from

10 the Prijedor area on him and his family. So we have

11 several other areas to cover.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you

13 give us a rough estimate of the amount of time you

14 need?

15 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe that it

16 may take us another 45 minutes to an hour for that.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

18 case, we cannot begin with the cross-examination

19 today. It will be rather difficult, I think.

20 MS. HOLLIS: It may go quicker, Your Honour,

21 but that would be my estimate. Again, Your Honour, the

22 information at the beginning and the end is information

23 that we are eliciting in lieu of the procedure we

24 discussed yesterday.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Once we

Page 1418

1 emerge from this provisional stage, can we trust your

2 estimates for witnesses, because you had planned two

3 hours and it will be close to four hours. So I'm

4 asking whether all the estimates you have given us, can

5 we rely on them for the future or not?

6 MS. HOLLIS: Well, Your Honour, I must say,

7 in fairness, that these are estimates, that we cannot

8 tell you that this is the length of the examination.

9 So even if we confine ourselves to what happened in the

10 camp, which we believe we cannot, it would be an

11 estimate. It could go longer. So in candor to the

12 Court and in fairness to the Prosecution, no, we could

13 not promise you that it would be that amount of time.

14 Those are estimates. I believe we've indicated all

15 along those are estimates. They were our best

16 estimates, but I would be remiss to try to guarantee

17 you that those are absolutely accurate.

18 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

19 [In English] I just noted some repetitions in what he

20 said. Clearly, things which we already understood were

21 repeated. So perhaps you can avoid that sometimes.

22 MS. HOLLIS: If I can do so, Your Honour, I

23 will. Perhaps that will mean interrupting the

24 witness. I will attempt to do that.

25 But I must point out, Your Honours, that in

Page 1419

1 the Prosecution's estimation, this is all relevant

2 evidence in this case. This is the first witness that

3 you are hearing, and we would submit that this is not

4 unduly long, given all the experiences that this

5 witness had in the camp and the information that he has

6 about this camp.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We

8 understand that being the first witness, it can go on a

9 little longer. But we do expect you to speed up a

10 little afterwards.

11 Excuse me, Mr. Fila. I'm going to give you

12 the floor, but I should like to address myself to

13 Mr. Simic in order to learn whether you have any idea

14 as to the total amount of time -- I'm talking to

15 Mr. Krstan Simic, how much time, more or less, you

16 need. Are you in a position to tell us how much time

17 you will need for the cross-examination?

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

19 we agreed yesterday that the Defence, after the

20 examination-in-chief, will announce the order in which

21 it will cross-examine and give a rough estimate of the

22 time required. But as the direct has still not ended,

23 and especially in view of the fact that certain things

24 are cropping up for the first time that were never

25 mentioned in the statement, in the prior statement, nor

Page 1420

1 in the transcript from the Tadic case, the Defence will

2 have to have a short consultation regarding the order

3 and the time needed.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,

5 you wanted to say something.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

7 Ms. Hollis earlier said that she was afraid that the

8 Defence might put the same question five times to a

9 witness. Ms. Hollis has asked five times whether the

10 administration, the personnel of the camp, prevented

11 anyone from committing the act under Article 5 of the

12 Statute, and each time the answer was, "No." I'm not

13 criticising anyone, but this question could have been

14 put once. "During your stay in the camp, did anyone of

15 the camp administration prohibit such behaviour?" The

16 answer would have been, "No," and that would have been

17 the end of it. That is one point.

18 A second point. Throughout the testimony of

19 Mr. Beganovic so far, Krkan was never mentioned in the

20 Tadic case or in the statements that we have received.

21 The Defence agreement was that the clients that are not

22 mentioned, that their attorneys should not

23 cross-examine the witness, which would mean the Defence

24 attorney of Kos, myself, or Mr. Simic would have had no

25 questions for this witness, only Krstan Simic and

Page 1421

1 Mr. Tosic would have cross-examined. We have now heard

2 three additional names in the testimony, so now we have

3 to cross-examine. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

5 Mr. Fila. Regarding the question that you have

6 mentioned, I personally share that view. But first I

7 will give Ms. Hollis an opportunity to respond.

8 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. In

9 regard to the specific repetitions that were raised by

10 Defence counsel, the questions at the beginning were

11 whether he observed that, in general, as to any of

12 these situations, and then the later questions were

13 asked to his specific beatings, did anyone intervene to

14 stop them. If Your Honours are satisfied that based on

15 the current evidence it is clear that no one intervened

16 to stop any of this, we will stop asking the question.

17 But the character of the questions were different, and

18 we believe that that is a significant piece of

19 information for Your Honours to have. That is why the

20 questions were phrased that way; that is why we

21 continued to ask the questions.

22 In regard to the names that were raised,

23 there was one accused in the Tadic case, and that's

24 what that case, for the most part, focused on. It is

25 very clear that there are several accused, none of them

Page 1422

1 Tadic, in this case, and that's what this case is

2 focusing on.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could I ask counsel to slow

4 down, please.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Therefore, these questions are

6 relevant in this case that we submit were not asked and

7 potentially would not have been necessarily relevant in

8 the Tadic case. So to take the Tadic transcript and

9 expect the evidence to be all of the same, we submit,

10 would not be accurate because we have different

11 accused, we have different allegations about those

12 accused. That's why you are hearing things today that

13 would not have been found in the Tadic case.

14 In regard to prior statements, I'd like to

15 point out something that is perhaps a very significant

16 difference. We do not, in the Office of the

17 Prosecutor, take a statement using a procedure like an

18 investigating judge where we sit down for a case and

19 take a comprehensive statement for that case. The

20 statements that we take and have taken, and many of

21 these in this case were taken in 1994, 1995, are

22 investigative, and they are general in nature. They

23 are not aimed at a specific trial. So they are not

24 going to be matters -- they are not going to be as

25 comprehensive as a system would be if an investigating

Page 1423

1 judge were used to take a statement about a specific

2 case and a specifying charge. That is the reason that

3 you're not going to find all of this information in

4 prior statements. It's simply the practice of this

5 Tribunal compared to other jurisdictions.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think the

7 question of repetition of the particular question

8 mentioned by Fila, did anyone prevent anyone from

9 doing, it's true that it was repetitious. I understand

10 that you described various types of mistreatments, and

11 each time you put the same question. But it is true,

12 you could have described all the cases of mistreatment,

13 and at the end, referring to all those mistreatments,

14 "Did anyone try to prevent it?" But that's an

15 option. I understand your point. I understand it as

16 being your strategy, and after all, I cannot interfere

17 with the strategy of the Prosecution or the Defence.

18 But from the standpoint of efficiency, I think it could

19 have been done in a different manner. But I cannot

20 judge you on that.

21 Another question. It is true that there are

22 names that do not appear in the transcript, but one

23 must bear in mind that this is the idea of new

24 questions. We have referred to that. It applies to

25 both the Prosecution and the Defence. So the

Page 1424

1 examination-in-chief in the Tadic case was focused on

2 one person, whereas the witness knew a whole spectrum

3 of other people whom he didn't mention then, but he is

4 mentioning them now. And this is a new question which,

5 in my opinion, is justified both for the Defence and

6 for the Prosecution. So you will have the opportunity

7 to cross-examine. Otherwise, the Prosecution would be

8 prevented from presenting its case. I think the

9 Prosecutor must present its case and the Defence must

10 respond.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Obviously, there

12 must be a misunderstanding. I truly apologise to

13 Ms. Hollis if she misunderstood me. I am not

14 criticising her for those names having cropped up. I'm

15 just saying that we will have to change our agreement

16 and the duration of the cross-examination. So, please,

17 if that is your impression, I do apologise,

18 Ms. Hollis.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We cannot

20 continue with this debate because we have to have a

21 break. But, very well, Mr. Simic, what is the point of

22 your intervention?

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

24 shall be very brief. I have drawn attention to a fact

25 that in the statement of the witness, which truly was

Page 1425

1 taken in 1994, as Ms. Hollis said, that that statement

2 is 20 pages long, and this case had not been started.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Anyway, we

4 are all intelligent people and we know what we are

5 talking about. And I think the intelligent thing to do

6 is to have a break. Otherwise, we won't be able to

7 function properly. And this also applies to the

8 interpreters. We are going to have a half-hour break,

9 because I think we should change a little bit the

10 rhythm, because if we have a break that is shorter than

11 half an hour, then the accused don't have a break. And

12 out of respect for the rights of the accused, I think

13 it would be best to have two half-hour breaks in the

14 course of the session for them to leave, because they

15 are entitled to following the debates and they must be

16 in a condition to do so.

17 So we're having a 30-minute break, and,

18 Ms. Hollis, I beg you to try and finish the

19 examination-in-chief at least today. I know you're

20 going to try. So half an hour, which means we will

21 resume at 1.40.

22 --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

25 seated.

Page 1426

1 The witness is not here yet, Mr. Dubuisson.

2 What's happening?

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] He's coming.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, while we wait for

6 the witness, we would like to reiterate that the

7 Prosecution certainly is sensitive to the very

8 legitimate needs to expeditiously move through these

9 witnesses, and we will do everything that we can to

10 ensure that we both put on the relevant evidence that

11 we feel we need but also take all possible steps to

12 expedite the presentation of evidence.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

14 Ms. Hollis. We take note of your goodwill, and then we

15 will see about how it works.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

18 you may now continue.

19 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Beganovic, before the break we were about

21 to move on to the third incident when you were called

22 out and beaten. Regarding this third incident, how

23 many days after your second beating did this occur?

24 A. I think that it was, again, two days later.

25 Q. At the time of this third incident, where

Page 1427

1 were you being held?

2 A. In room 15.

3 Q. Now, what happened when you were called out

4 this third time?

5 A. I heard that my name was being called out. I

6 don't know who it was. When I got to the door, I saw

7 the same Dragan who was involved in the first beating.

8 Q. What happened after you came out the door and

9 saw Dragan?

10 A. My head was bleeding and one of the detainees

11 had put a piece of white cloth on my head in order to

12 try and stop the bleeding. I don't know exactly what

13 it was. It was a kind of T-shirt, white in colour.

14 And he told me, "Well, you're not a hodza. Why do you

15 need this white cloth on your head?" I didn't say

16 anything, and then he told me to come down. And as I

17 was passing by him, he started beating me again, and

18 again with a truncheon, on my back, on my head, on the

19 upper part of my body.

20 Q. Now, you indicate he said to you, "You're not

21 a hodza." What is a hodza?

22 A. A hodza is a Muslim priest.

23 Q. When he said to you, "You're not a hodza" and

24 he mentioned the bandage on your head, what was he

25 referring to? What did that mean?

Page 1428

1 A. I don't know. He was probably trying to

2 provoke me, to insult me.

3 Q. What happened after that? You indicated that

4 he had started beating you again.

5 A. Yes, he started beating me again, and he

6 pushed me to the lower part of the hangar.

7 Q. And by "the lower part", do you mean the

8 ground floor?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What happened once he had pushed you to this

11 lower part of --

12 A. A group of Serb soldiers were there. They

13 were all in uniform, in multicoloured uniform. There

14 were five or six of them. And he pushed me towards

15 them and they all started beating me. They took it out

16 on me. I was the only detainee there. I didn't notice

17 anyone else. So all of them beat me. At one point

18 there was some kind of pillars or sticks which were

19 marking the area. I think that they were metal. I

20 fell down at one point, near those pillars, and I

21 couldn't get up anymore. Then one soldier, I don't

22 remember which one, took me by my feet and he lifted me

23 up like this [indicates], and another soldier took a

24 metal cable and they hanged me by my feet with this

25 metal cable.

Page 1429

1 I don't know how much time I spent hanging

2 like this, I couldn't tell you exactly, but it couldn't

3 have been very long. At one point, my feet slid out

4 from my sneakers and out of the cable noose. Dragan

5 approached me at that moment and he said, "Do you know

6 me? Do you know who I am?" I said that I didn't know

7 him, that I didn't see him before in my life, that I

8 didn't know who he was, where he was from. And then he

9 told his -- these other soldiers, "Take this one away

10 and bring me Senad Muslimovic."

11 Q. Now, when he asked you if you knew him and

12 you said you did not, you had never seen him before,

13 why did you say that?

14 A. I said that simply because in the camp we all

15 knew that they never left any witnesses alive. So if

16 you knew someone, you could be killed. Whoever was

17 known to them -- whoever knew them by name and surname

18 would not be spared. They were killing witnesses; they

19 didn't want to have them say later on who they were.

20 If I had told him that I knew him, he would have

21 probably killed me.

22 Q. Now, you indicated that Dragan was engaging

23 in this beating with several other individuals. Did

24 you recognise any of those other individuals as regular

25 camp personnel at Omarska?

Page 1430

1 A. There was no one from the regular camp

2 personnel. They were all from the outside, from the

3 area outside the camp. I knew some of them; I didn't

4 know others. But there was no one from the camp

5 personnel there.

6 Q. Now, when Dragan said, "Take this one away

7 and bring me Senad Muslimovic," what happened with you?

8 A. I started towards the stairway but my

9 sneakers were left behind, and Dragan told me to go

10 back and fetch my sneakers. I told him I didn't need

11 them, and he said, "It's better for you to go back.

12 You don't want me to bring them for you." So that was

13 all I could do. I went back and they started beating

14 me again.

15 But after a while I managed to muster some

16 force and went back upstairs. I went to room 15, to

17 the spot where I used to lie, and when I reached that

18 spot I fainted.

19 Q. Now, after this third beating, were you able

20 to continue to go out each day to get food?

21 A. No. For a while I couldn't move. I didn't

22 leave room number 15; I never once went for food. I

23 spent seven or eight days like that. I was unable to

24 walk. And then after a while I managed to make several

25 steps. People would carry me to the toilet, but I

Page 1431

1 couldn't actually go to the toilet. I had not been to

2 the toilet for about 30 days.

3 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to the

4 last day that you were in Omarska, the day that you

5 were taken from Omarska. Now, on that day when you

6 were taken from Omarska, how many people were taken

7 with you from Omarska?

8 A. Half of the camp was taken, between 1.300 and

9 1.500 people.

10 Q. Now, on that day, the day that you were taken

11 from Omarska, when you were being brought out to be

12 taken away, how did that happen? How was that carried

13 out by the camp personnel?

14 A. Could you please repeat your question?

15 Q. Certainly. What was the procedure that was

16 used to sort you prisoners out and then to send you

17 from Omarska camp?

18 A. I don't know exactly on the basis of what

19 they selected people. They had some lists. They would

20 come with lists and read out names. Some people, as I

21 later heard, went to Trnopolje. Those who went to

22 Trnopolje were taken to the pista. And the rest of us,

23 we were lined up in front of Mujo's room. We were

24 supposed to be taken somewhere, and at that time I

25 didn't know where.

Page 1432

1 Q. Now, at the time that you were outside in the

2 area of Mujo's room, did you recognise any camp

3 personnel present?

4 A. All of them were there. There was some

5 confusion concerning the selection of detainees, so

6 they all moved around, walked around the area.

7 Q. Who did you recognise? What were the names

8 of some of the people you recognised?

9 A. At this moment I couldn't tell you precisely

10 who it was who read out the names from a list. There

11 were a few of them. One would begin reading the names

12 from a list and the other one would come to continue.

13 It's very difficult for me to remember exactly who it

14 was after such a long time. But those were the guards

15 who had been in the camp all the time, they were the

16 ones who brought the lists and read out the names.

17 Q. Now, where were you taken from Omarska?

18 A. From Omarska I was taken to Manjaca, to the

19 camp in Manjaca.

20 Q. Where was Manjaca? What municipality is that

21 located in, if you know?

22 A. I think it belongs to the Banja Luka

23 municipality.

24 Q. How were you transported to Manjaca?

25 A. The situation was very chaotic concerning the

Page 1433

1 buses. At the beginning we had to bend our heads down

2 so as not to look out. But the column was stopped very

3 soon and we realised that we were moving in the

4 direction of Banja Luka, travelling along the

5 Prijedor-Banja Luka road.

6 Then they started beating us and they told us

7 that we should all kneel down and crawl under the

8 seats. So there were, I don't know how many seats, but

9 there was an equal number of detainees, and we had to

10 crawl under the seats. This is how I spent the night

11 until the next morning, when we got off the bus in

12 Manjaca. I remained in that position all the time. It

13 is very difficult for me today to understand how I was

14 able to fit in such a small space. But that's how it

15 happened.

16 Q. And how long were you held at this Manjaca

17 camp?

18 A. I was there from the 7th of August until the

19 13th of December, 1992.

20 Q. From Manjaca, where were you taken?

21 A. From Manjaca I was taken to the Batkovic

22 camp.

23 Q. What part of Bosnia was the Batkovic camp in,

24 if you know?

25 A. It is in the area of Semberija, in the

Page 1434

1 Bijeljina municipality.

2 Q. How long were you held in the Batkovic camp?

3 A. In the Batkovic camp, I was held from the

4 13th of December, 1992 until the 4th of March, 1993.

5 Q. Where did you go from there?

6 A. We were then exchanged in the municipality of

7 Rahic, in the municipality of Brcko, and this is where

8 I crossed over to what is called today the Federation.

9 Q. Mr. Beganovic, during your earlier testimony,

10 you referred to several camp personnel by nicknames,

11 for example, Krkan. Do you know, or did you know

12 Krkan's proper name?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You also referred to Krle. Did you know

15 Krle's proper name?

16 A. Mladjo Radic is Krkan. Krle is Milojica Kos

17 and Krkan is Mladjo Radic. And Kvocka, his name is

18 Miroslav. Prcac, his name is Dragoljub or Dragan.

19 Then there's Zigic, Zoran Zigic.

20 Q. You also mentioned someone you referred to as

21 Ckalja. Did you know his proper name?

22 A. I only know his nickname. Paspalj, I know

23 him by his family name, that is, Paspalj. As regards

24 Koka, I used to know his name and his surname but I

25 cannot remember it at this point. I'd known him for 20

Page 1435

1 years, and everybody called him Koka.

2 Q. Now, you've mentioned Prcac. Did you know

3 Prcac before the camp?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How did you come to know him in the camp?

6 A. Well, I heard that there was a Prcac who came

7 to the camp and who replaced Kvocka as the commander.

8 I may have seen him once or twice in the camp, but I

9 didn't know him at all; I didn't know him from

10 Prijedor. And I also didn't see him in the camp very

11 often because I generally avoided going out. I tried

12 to go out as little as possible. I didn't go to eat

13 very often; I was afraid that I would be recognised.

14 That's why I didn't see him. And he never entered our

15 room, at least I never saw him enter our room.

16 Q. When you first arrived at Omarska camp, what

17 was your general physical condition?

18 A. I was fit, I was in a good condition. I

19 weighed about 70, 75 kilos. I was in good shape, both

20 physically and mentally.

21 Q. When you were taken from Omarska camp in

22 early August, could you describe for the Court what

23 your physical condition was at that time?

24 A. I was in a terrible physical condition. I

25 had 49 kilos in Manjaca when they first took us to be

Page 1436

1 weighed. I was like a skeleton, only skin and bones.

2 My legs were injured, my arms were injured, my head was

3 injured, but somehow I managed to overcome that

4 suffering psychologically. I think that

5 psychologically I was relatively well. However, the

6 physical injuries were terrible.

7 Q. What long-term effects, if any, have you felt

8 as a result of your detention in Omarska and the

9 physical abuse of you in Omarska?

10 A. Of course the consequences are long-term

11 consequences. I still feel the injuries in my spine.

12 I often have pains in my legs and my arms. I have

13 headaches. Before the camp, I never suffered from

14 headaches. Now I often have them, very severe

15 headaches. I also suffer from insomnia.

16 Q. Now, you've described what your general

17 financial situation was prior to being taken to

18 Omarska. As a result of being forced to leave that

19 area, would you describe for the Court what your

20 personal circumstances are today?

21 A. Today, until very recently, I was on social

22 welfare. However, in the past year, my wife opened a

23 florist shop here in the Netherlands and she's slowly

24 beginning to do business. So as regards our financial

25 situation, it is okay now. I don't know what we are

Page 1437

1 going to do. We will see about this florist shop. But

2 until last year, I was living on social welfare here in

3 Holland.

4 Q. The properties that you held in Prijedor

5 prior to 30 May 1992, have you been able to recover any

6 of those properties?

7 A. No, I haven't. Nothing. Though I visited

8 Prijedor a month ago, two of my business premises are

9 still there, a cafe and the florist shop, the Pink

10 Cafe. However, the Serbs who are now there are

11 refusing to leave and the authorities are not doing

12 anything to give those premises back to me. I don't

13 know what will happen next. There hasn't been any

14 change in that regard in Prijedor.

15 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have no further

16 questions of the witness.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

18 very much, Ms. Hollis. You have managed to finish

19 today, and thank you for that.

20 Let me turn now to Mr. Krstan Simic.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

22 in view of the time, it is ten minutes past two, I

23 don't know whether it would be in our interests, in our

24 common interests, to begin today. After an examination

25 like this, the Defence should at least be given an

Page 1438

1 opportunity to make an order and to organise themselves

2 in order to avoid repetition and a waste of time, so we

3 would need at least ten minutes for this consultation.

4 Or perhaps we can continue with the cross-examination

5 tomorrow morning. We will accept your decision.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, I

7 thought that during the break you were able to have a

8 consultation, because the examination-in-chief was

9 almost finished. But in any event, you owe us 20

10 minutes because you were actually supposed to have a

11 consultation during the break.

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

13 we can start. We have made a plan.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

15 then. Let us use these 20 minutes. What will be the

16 order?

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

18 I will first ask questions, then counsel for Mr. Zigic,

19 and then after that, Mr. Nikolic, and then Mr. Fila,

20 and Mr. Simic at the end. The only change in the order

21 is that Mr. Tosic will be asking questions after me.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I

23 understand you correctly, the order will be as

24 follows: You will begin, you, Mr. Krstan Simic, then

25 Mr. Tosic, then Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Fila --

Page 1439

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the

2 Nikolic team, the Defence team for Mr. Kos.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

4 then. It will be up to the team of the Defence. So

5 when I say Simic, Tosic, Nikolic, Fila, you will each

6 tell me who will be the counsel conducting the

7 cross-examination, but the order is as I have just read

8 it. Very well, then.

9 Witness, you are now going to answer

10 questions that will be put to you by the counsel for

11 the Defence. Let me take this opportunity to remind

12 you that we are here to bring justice and not to take

13 any revenge. I'm telling this for all of you. I know

14 that the Defence counsel are doing their job here, they

15 know what they're doing, and that you will be treated

16 in a gentlemanly manner.

17 Mr. Simic, you do have the floor.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

19 Mr. President. I really do wish to express profound

20 regret on account of what Mr. Beganovic has

21 experienced. But I think that hatred is something we

22 must put aside and I fully support what you have just

23 said, and I think the truth is a good ally in life, so

24 I expect Mr. Beganovic to act accordingly.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

Page 1440

1 Q. Mr. Beganovic, let us talk a little bit about

2 the period of the election campaign, the events that

3 took place at the time. You said a moment ago that

4 there were three national parties and that they were

5 joined mostly by members of the corresponding ethnic

6 groups: Serbs, Muslims, or Croats.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know any Serb or Muslim, or Bosniak,

9 to be more precise, that did not join those parties

10 based on ethnicity?

11 A. I am not aware of that. I just know that

12 there were both Muslims, Serbs, and Croats in Ante

13 Markovic's party, of which I was a member, the

14 reformists.

15 Q. Yes. Can you tell us, what was the position

16 of all the nationalist parties towards Ante Markovic's

17 party?

18 A. I think it was a negative one.

19 Q. Was that party exposed to certain attacks, or

20 rather the members of that party, did they have

21 political difficulties, to put it that way?

22 A. Not really. I don't think you could put it

23 that way, that there was any real problems. But there

24 were verbal exchanges amongst citizens, both Muslims,

25 Serbs, and Croats. People would say, "As all the Serbs

Page 1441

1 can be in with their party, why can't we be in ours?"

2 The Croats said the same for the HDZ. So that the

3 majority of citizens supported the national parties.

4 In fact, the population split up along those lines.

5 Q. As a person from town, you had access to a

6 large quantity of information. Do you know which was

7 the first national party to be established in the

8 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. I don't know. That didn't interest me. As

10 far as national parties are concerned, I was actually

11 in Holland in 1990 for a couple of months on business

12 at the time, so that when I came to Bosnia, when I

13 returned from Holland at the end of 1990, everything

14 had been prepared. I wasn't interested in politics

15 anyway so I don't know those things.

16 Q. As I belong to Ante Markovic's party, I have

17 certain information about that, so perhaps I know a

18 little bit more about it.

19 Do you know that all the national parties,

20 the HDZ, the SDA, and the HDZ [sic], did they form a

21 coalition block against Ante Markovic's party?

22 A. In my opinion they did.

23 Q. Was it publicly announced as a coalition of

24 national parties?

25 A. It wasn't public, but that's how they worked

Page 1442

1 and that is the impression they gave.

2 Q. After the elections --

3 A. Let me say you made a mistake, but it doesn't

4 matter. It was in 1990 the elections were, not in

5 1991.

6 Q. What was the relationship in Prijedor among

7 the parties?

8 A. The SDA won, then SDS, and then the HDZ.

9 Q. Did the SDA get a sufficient number of votes

10 to form the government alone in Prijedor, or was this

11 again a kind of coalition?

12 A. No. It obtained a sufficient number of votes

13 to be the majority party; that is a fact. The SDA --

14 that is something we cannot deny, although I was never

15 a supporter of the SDA.

16 Q. Are you saying that the SDA won more than 50

17 per cent of the votes?

18 A. It won and it formed the government until the

19 forcible takeover on the 30th of April. That's a

20 fact. No one can deny that. The SDA was in power in

21 Prijedor, and the departments were distributed.

22 Everything was known; who was the president of the

23 municipality, the president of the court, who was the

24 general manager of the mines, of the electrical

25 distribution company, et cetera. I don't know what is

Page 1443

1 in dispute.

2 Q. What do you mean it wasn't in power?

3 A. I would have liked it not to have been in

4 power but it was.

5 Q. Obviously we don't understand one another.

6 For the SDA to form a government, it would need to have

7 51 per cent of the votes.

8 A. How do I know how many votes it got? I know

9 who held the various positions.

10 Q. Who was the president of the municipality?

11 A. A Muslim.

12 Q. Who was the president of the local

13 government?

14 A. The president of the municipality was a

15 Muslim; the chief of police was a Muslim; and the post

16 office and the electricity supply system was held by

17 them.

18 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you a very clear and

19 precise question. Who was the president of the

20 municipal government?

21 A. I was a businessman at the time. It didn't

22 interest me.

23 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you're talking about facts

24 here. You just said that things were a fact. I'm

25 asking you who was the president of the municipal

Page 1444

1 government.

2 A. He was a Muslim.

3 Q. What was his name?

4 A. He was a teacher, professor, Muhamed -- I

5 can't remember the surname just now. Muhamed. I know

6 that he was a teacher at the high school in Prijedor.

7 I will recall his name a little later.

8 Q. Let me simplify things. So in your view, the

9 president of the municipal government was a member of

10 the Muslim ethnic group.

11 Now let's go back to the tensions that you

12 spoke to. How were they manifesting themselves, when

13 in April you removed your family before the takeover?

14 A. Precisely because the tensions had heightened

15 to such a degree that I saw that something would

16 happen. I don't know what. Whether the people would

17 move out or there would be a war, whether there would

18 be a front line or not, one couldn't tell yet at the

19 time.

20 But with the return of the Serb fighters from

21 the Croatian front, they behaved so arrogantly and

22 aggressively that it was dangerous for me, not to

23 mention my wife and child. It was not possible to do

24 business any more normally, and that is why I took that

25 decision. Originally we had planned it for a month.

Page 1445

1 Go on a holiday. Why wait for the summer? Go for a

2 holiday in April, go and visit the family, until we see

3 what happens, I won't leave. And that was the reason.

4 There was shooting in Prijedor as if there was a war on

5 already.

6 Q. You mentioned the possibility of war. Who

7 would be waging the war in Prijedor?

8 A. These Serb fighters, these veterans who come

9 from Croatia, whose friend or brother gets killed and

10 then they come to Prijedor to take it out on us. But

11 that is not a war, it's worse than war. He has a gun,

12 a machine-gun; he has all kinds of artillery pieces.

13 And what do I have? And all the other Muslims, what

14 did we have? Did we have any weapons?

15 Q. A moment ago you said that there was more or

16 less a free market of weapons.

17 A. Not more or less. There really was a

18 market.

19 Q. Could anyone buy a weapon?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Anyone who had the money to do so?

22 A. Yes, that is a fact.

23 Q. Money did not care about ethnicity.

24 A. No, it did not.

25 Q. Let us go back now for a moment to the

Page 1446

1 Patriotic League. You agree that when a public rally

2 is organised, permission is required. Who granted

3 permission?

4 A. The SUP in Prijedor.

5 Q. Who headed the SUP?

6 A. A Muslim.

7 Q. What was his name?

8 A. Hasan Talundzic.

9 Q. Who and why would -- who would withhold

10 permission for holding this peace initiative?

11 A. As of the 30th of April it was not possible

12 because the checkpoints cropped up the very next day.

13 Until April it was possible; that's a fact.

14 Q. Yes. But in March, was it prohibited?

15 A. We stopped working in March already because

16 there was this forcible takeover of Prijedor. That was

17 on the 15th of March.

18 Q. The first attempt or --

19 A. Yes. On the 15th of March, a couple hundred

20 of us rallied in front of the municipality, and then

21 for some reason they changed their minds and they

22 postponed this until they did so by force of arms. So

23 that in March we stopped our concerts and rallies.

24 Kuruzovic would not let us enter the

25 municipality. He organised the TO. Kuruzovic knows

Page 1447

1 what he did around Prijedor. He threatened that he

2 would take me to Croatian Gradiska to see what they had

3 done to Gradiska because of the Ustashas and people

4 like me. And what I had been doing until then? I was

5 engaged in catering and the florist business.

6 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you mentioned the 15th of

7 March as an attempt to take over power.

8 A. I think it was in March.

9 Q. How did that manifest itself?

10 A. Well, they simply came, the Serbs. They were

11 so powerful. They positioned snipers on the mine

12 administration building behind the municipality. They

13 went into the municipality to come to some sort of an

14 agreement that power should be handed over to them, and

15 they entered. The negotiations started. Who with, I

16 don't know. I wasn't inside; I was in front of the

17 building. And then they saw that people were

18 gathering, and probably the time was still not right

19 for camps, so they postponed the whole thing for a

20 while.

21 Q. What --

22 A. I don't know whether it was exactly on the

23 15th of March, but sometime in March. There was an

24 attempt to take over power in Prijedor in March, I can

25 guarantee that, the first attempt.

Page 1448

1 Q. How was it prevented?

2 A. Probably thanks to the congregation of this

3 large group of people in front of the municipality. It

4 wasn't prevented, it was postponed.

5 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you gave a statement in 1994

6 which you signed, it is 22 pages long, and you spoke in

7 great detail then about many things. Did you ever have

8 a weapon in your life?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. What kind?

11 A. Hunting weapon.

12 Q. What kind?

13 A. It was a carbine with a sniper, and a

14 shotgun, a weapon that my father owned for more than 30

15 years. He was the best-known hunter in Prijedor. And

16 these are weapons that I inherited, because my father

17 died in 1982 and my family made a gift of them to me.

18 But I was never able to get a license from the Serb

19 authorities, from the communist police, who were over

20 my head all my life, ever since I was born.

21 Q. Mr. Beganovic, will you please answer my

22 questions.

23 A. But this is linked to that.

24 Q. We'll come to that later.

25 A. Very well. But I apologise.

Page 1449

1 Q. Since you have opened this question, when did

2 your father die?

3 A. In 1982.

4 Q. In 1982? Was there a legal proceeding to

5 establish the succession? Were the weapons lawfully

6 registered as part of his property? I'm asking you,

7 did he have a permit?

8 A. Yes, he was a hunter of course.

9 Q. When the court ruling came, do you know the

10 procedure for legalising weapons?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. Did you submit a request for the weapons in

13 accordance with the court ruling on succession to be

14 legalised?

15 A. I carried the request to SUP. I got a

16 certificate from the hunting society that I'm capable

17 of hunting, that I'm a hunter, and they gave the

18 certificate to SUP but they would never give me one.

19 But they did give me a weapon when I was called up as a

20 reservist to go to Manjaca.

21 Q. We'll come back to that later. What is the

22 basis for your acquisition of weapons? I'm talking

23 about the legality of holding weapons, of possessing

24 weapons? Did you receive a document granting you

25 approval, in accordance with the law, to hold in your

Page 1450

1 possession any weapons?

2 A. I received the court ruling whereby those

3 weapons were passed on to me as part of my

4 inheritance. Everyone knew this, that I inherited

5 those weapons from my father.

6 Q. When did you get a request that was rejected?

7 A. Yes, I received the rejection papers. Even

8 my wife, who was a graduate forestry engineer, and she

9 wanted to gain permission and she was refused too.

10 Rajko Zigic and company would not let her have it.

11 Q. Does that mean that without the permission of

12 the competent authorities, you held two rifles in your

13 home?

14 A. I handed in those guns to the SUP and they

15 gave me time to submit another request to become a

16 member of the hunting society and to have the right to

17 possess the weapon, and I was rejected again.

18 Q. Did you complain? Did you appeal the

19 decision?

20 A. I did, and it was rejected. My wife

21 appealed, and again it was rejected.

22 Q. When were those weapons seized from you?

23 A. I think sometime in 1988 [Realtime transcript

24 read in error "1998"]. I can't tell you the exact

25 year.

Page 1451

1 Q. The seizure of weapons, as a result of that

2 seizure, were you given a receipt on the type of

3 weapons?

4 A. Yes, I think I was.

5 Q. What is Kratez? What kind of a rifle is

6 Kratez?

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] There's a

8 small error. Beganovic said "in 1988" and there's an

9 error in the transcript.

10 Q. When was your rifle seized from you?

11 A. Around 1988, I think.

12 Q. Did you get a receipt? Because weapons were

13 seized from you as you had possession of them

14 illegally.

15 A. I think so.

16 Q. Does it say anything, that receipt?

17 A. How can I remember what it says?

18 Q. Does it have a number of the rifle and name

19 of it?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. Please don't be angry at me. I'm just asking

22 you these things. Why does it say under number 2

23 "Kratez"? Did you ever have a shorter rifle?

24 A. No. It was a normal shotgun, .12 calibre,

25 and a carbine, bought in Novi Sad at an exhibition of

Page 1452

1 hunting weapons, with the latest sniper, one that can

2 be used at night. And my father even had medals for

3 capital deer that he had killed, so he had very good,

4 high quality weapons. I don't know what you mean by

5 "Kratez".

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

7 I apologise for interrupting you but we have to close

8 for today. Is that all right? We'll adjourn now.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Fine,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Further to

12 what I have said -- yes, the witness should come back

13 again tomorrow. He's leaving us now.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Further to

16 what I have said in relation to the pattern of two

17 breaks of half an hour each, to give the accused time

18 to rest as well, I would like to suggest the following

19 timetable, which I would like you to note down:

20 We start at 9.30. We will have a break at

21 11.00, and after a 30-minute break, which means the

22 second slot of work will be from 11.30 until ten to

23 one. And then again a half-hour break, and the third

24 slot will be from 1.20 until 2.30.

25 You see that we get tired as we move along,

Page 1453

1 so we're shortening the working period. The first will

2 be for an hour, thirty; the second one hour, twenty;

3 and the third one hour, ten. So in total four working

4 hours.

5 Why am I saying this? I'm saying this for

6 you to be able to manage your own time. You have

7 questions to put, and my idea would be that it is not

8 convenient to interrupt a question for the benefit of a

9 break. If you only have one question, you will put it,

10 but don't go on to the next question until after the

11 break.

12 So with these small differences, plus/minus

13 five minutes, we are going to try to respect this

14 timetable. And if you forget, I will give you the

15 classical sign of time out. It is universally

16 understood. I think everyone will know what I mean.

17 The idea is to regulate and organise our work. We all

18 know the rules, and the rule regarding the management

19 of time would be as I have just described.

20 But to guarantee that the accused has time to

21 rest, we have had to change the timetable a little

22 bit. So we're going to test it to see whether it

23 works, and to do so, we will meet here again tomorrow

24 at 9.30. Thank you.

25 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Could I

Page 1454

1 quickly put the Court on notice of an issue with

2 witnesses.

3 Witness number 3, because of business

4 commitments, we've had to change witness number 3 in

5 the order, so we'll move up a witness. So instead of

6 witness number 3, the person named as witness number 4

7 will move up into that position. The witness number 3

8 will be back with us next week and we will reinsert

9 witness number 3 in the order. But because of that

10 witness' business commitments that could not be

11 changed, we've had to change that order.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 Perhaps I should consult Mr. Simic, or someone else.

14 Do you object to a change in the order of witnesses?

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] From the

18 standpoint of the Chamber, we understand very well that

19 there is a certain order of the presentation of

20 evidence, but it is possible to change it. The only

21 thing is for the parties to be prepared and ready for

22 the cross-examination. But the Chamber has no problem

23 with it, and I see that the Defence does not object

24 either. So thank you, Ms. Hollis.

25 Until tomorrow.

Page 1455

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

2 2.40 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

3 the 5th day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.