Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1456

1 Friday, 5 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The accused

6 may be seated, and good morning.

7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good

8 morning to our technicians; good morning,

9 interpreters. I hope that they are here. Yes, I can

10 hear you too. Good morning, court reporters, legal

11 assistants; good morning, counsel for the Prosecution.

12 For the record, it appears that Mr. Michael

13 Keegan is not here today, but the Prosecution is

14 represented by Ms. Hollis. Good morning, counsel for

15 the Defence. I don't see Mr. Tosic here in the

16 courtroom. Mr. Stojanovic is there, however.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you're

18 right, Your Honour. The accused Mr. Zigic will be

19 represented by myself only today. My name is Slobodan

20 Stojanovic, I'm an attorney at law from Belgrade, and I

21 have been authorised by Mr. Tosic to present his

22 excuses today. He's absent for family reasons. But we

23 have been preparing ourselves together, and I can

24 guarantee that his absence will in no way be any

25 obstacle for our normal work today.

Page 1457

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

2 very much, Mr. Stojanovic.

3 We will resume the hearing of the Kvocka and

4 others case. Let me just remind you, Ms. Hollis, that

5 we will be working until 11.00, more or less, so if you

6 can please indicate to me when a convenient time for a

7 break is for you.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The witness

10 is now being brought in.

11 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the reason I'm on

12 my feet, I realise it's cross-examination, but because

13 of the difficulties we've had with the camera, the

14 Prosecution has provided an exhibit we believe will

15 assist the Court in terms of what rooms the witnesses

16 are pointing to. We have an exhibit that is basically

17 a plan of the restaurant or administration building and

18 the hangar, both the ground floor and the first floor,

19 with the numbers marked as they appear on the model.

20 I've provided copies to each of the Defence

21 teams, and at this time I'd like to offer it into

22 evidence. I believe it would be helpful for the

23 Court. I believe it would be next in order which is

24 3/77, and it would be 3/77A for the ground floor of the

25 administration building; B for the first floor of the

Page 1458

1 administration building; C for the ground floor of the

2 hangar building; and D for the first floor of the

3 hangar building.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are there

5 any objections, Mr. Simic, on behalf of the Defence as

6 regards the tendering of this exhibit?

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

8 Your Honours. We do not have any objections, and I am

9 speaking on behalf of the Defence team as a whole.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

11 very much, Mr. Simic. You have chosen the right place

12 to conduct your cross-examination. I think you will be

13 able to communicate better with the witness.

14 Mr. O'Sullivan, you would like to say

15 something.

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Could we have someone

17 from the technical group come and connect our

18 LiveNote. The examination can start while this

19 happens, but our LiveNote is not connected and we don't

20 have the transcript. So could someone come out now and

21 do this while the cross-examination proceeds.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I will take

23 this opportunity to tell you that very often there are

24 some minor errors in the transcript, and in order to

25 avoid interruptions, I have to tell you that the

Page 1459

1 transcripts are reviewed later on by the court

2 reporters at least three times, so the corrections are

3 subsequently made. It is not necessary to interrupt

4 with questions and remarks as regards the transcript

5 because it always gets revised after the hearing, and

6 as far as I know, at least three times. However, if

7 you really think that there has been a significant and

8 important mistake, you should draw our attention to

9 that.

10 Mr. O'Sullivan, has the problem been solved?

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The problem seems to be on

12 all the computers, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It should

14 be worth mentioning that we have to check technical

15 matters before the beginning of the hearing. The

16 Judges are always here at 9.30 and sometimes we have to

17 wait for a technical problem to be solved. I think

18 that the material -- that the technical equipment

19 should be checked beforehand, or if possible on the eve

20 of the hearing, the night before.

21 Could we proceed, Mr. Dubuisson? Is

22 everything okay?

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It seems

25 that things are functioning now.

Page 1460

1 Mr. Simic, I will now give you the floor so

2 that you can continue your cross-examination.

3 Let me just remind the witness that he's

4 still testifying under oath and that he will now

5 continue answering questions that will be put to him by

6 the Defence counsel. Are you comfortable, Witness?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your

8 Honour. Thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

10 very much.

11 Mr. Simic, you have the floor.

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

13 Mr. President.

14 WITNESS: EMIR BEGANOVIC [Resumed]

15 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

16 [Cont'd]

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Beganovic.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Let us continue where we stopped yesterday.

20 But before we do so, I should like to ask you to

21 provide brief answers to my questions, and I will do my

22 best to phrase them according to the suggestion by

23 Ms. Hollis. Let us try to have yes or no answers

24 because in this manner we will be able to proceed in an

25 expeditious manner, and I will get precise answers to

Page 1461

1 my questions. Do you agree?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Yesterday, we talked about the seizure of

4 your weapon in 1988.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I asked you whether you knew what the word

7 "Kratez" meant. So let me please quote your statement

8 of the 14th and 15th of December, 1994 and the 18th of

9 January, 1995.

10 "My father was a hunter. When he died, he

11 left behind two rifles; one was a 12-calibre shotgun, a

12 so-called Kratez ..."

13 A. There must be a technical error. That has

14 nothing to do with my statement. First of all, the

15 word "Kratez", I heard it yesterday for the first time

16 from you here in the courtroom. And then the rifles

17 were normal rifles. There was one shotgun and a

18 carbine with a sniper. I don't know. There may have

19 been an error in translation when it comes to this word

20 "Kratez", I don't know what it means.

21 Q. This statement was signed by you, but we will

22 finish with the subject shortly.

23 Let us go on. Yesterday you stated that you

24 were not able to obtain the weapon permit because you

25 were a Muslim.

Page 1462

1 A. No. No.

2 Q. You said that Serbs, including Rajko Zigic,

3 refused you the permit, but that is not important. How

4 was it possible for your father, who was also a Muslim,

5 to obtain in a legal manner, permits for those weapons?

6 A. I don't know. I was a child.

7 Q. Again, I will quote from your statement.

8 "The refusal for the issuance of the weapons

9 permit --"

10 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. Your father lived

11 under Yugoslavia when it was united, when he got the

12 permit, so it was another Yugoslavia. Thank you.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

14 Your Honour. I will follow up on what you have just

15 said.

16 Q. Your weapon was seized from you. When did it

17 happen? Did it happen during the time of some other

18 Yugoslavia in 1988?

19 A. Well, it was already a different kind of

20 Yugoslavia because Tito had died. He died in 1980 so

21 the country changed.

22 Q. Let us go back to the weapon permit. As

23 regards the reason, the grounds for the refusal of the

24 permit, was it not the fact stated by you in your

25 statement that is the fact as a child, as an adolescent

Page 1463

1 you had some problems regarding your behaviour?

2 A. Well, why would my wife also be refused the

3 weapon permit as well?

4 Q. What kind of problems with behaviour did you

5 have?

6 A. Well, how would I know? They wrote down

7 whatever they wanted to write down. They drew a

8 certain picture of me and this is what they did.

9 This is what the system was like. The ethnic

10 background did not matter. This had to do with the

11 kind of system that was -- with the kind of authority

12 that was in power at that time. It was during the

13 communism.

14 Q. Mr. Beganovic, we are not talking about

15 communism, we're talking about misbehaviour during your

16 young age as a child, as a young man, a minor person,

17 you misbehaved. What kind of behaviour was it?

18 A. Well I behaved the way I could. I don't know

19 what kind of behaviour they had in mind. They wrote

20 down whatever they wanted to write down in that paper.

21 Q. Mr. Beganovic, I'm not asking you to tell me

22 exactly what they wrote down on that paper. You stated

23 in your statement that you had had certain minor

24 problems, minor conflicts with the members of the

25 police while you were a young man. And you also stated

Page 1464

1 that your weapons were confiscated as a result of a

2 conflict with authorities and the police.

3 A. Yes, it's a fact. And that is why the

4 weapons were seized, but I had had those weapons for

5 about four or five years and nobody touched them,

6 nobody questioned the issue of inheritance because I

7 had inherited those weapons from my father.

8 Q. Mr. Beganovic, let us not go back to that, we

9 discussed it yesterday.

10 A. Yes, but the fact remains that Grozdanic and

11 others from the SUP came to my house and confiscated

12 the weapons, and this was stated in my statement of

13 1994.

14 Q. So because of the conflict --

15 A. Yes, because of the conflict. That was the

16 only reason.

17 Q. Did you threaten anyone with those weapons?

18 A. I took those weapons maybe two or three

19 times, otherwise I never touched them. I never fired a

20 single bullet from those weapons. I would only clean

21 them from time to time.

22 I did not posses them illegally, and I did

23 not use those hunting weapons in an active manner in

24 any way.

25 Q. As regards the conflict with the Grozdanic

Page 1465

1 brothers --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- you stated explicitly that that criminal

4 investigation was never instituted against you in any

5 way before the hostilities?

6 A. Well, I was charged at one point but nothing

7 was ever proved. And as regards my criminal record, I

8 didn't have any problems.

9 Q. Let me quote your -- what you say about that

10 in your statement. "As far as I know, I was never

11 investigated. I was never arrested. I was never

12 detained. I was never convicted for any criminal

13 activity before the outbreak of the hostilities."

14 You gave this statement under oath. However,

15 Mr. Beganovic, it seems that you were registered as a

16 pickpocket?

17 A. No, no. I was taken into custody by police

18 but I was never charged.

19 Q. Mr. Beganovic, it seems that we don't

20 understand each other. We're talking at

21 cross-purposes. I'm asking you, did you have any

22 criminal record with the police as a pickpocket?

23 A. I don't think I was.

24 Q. Do you know what I mean by the word

25 pickpocket?

Page 1466

1 A. Well, it's a kind of jargon for theft.

2 Q. What kind of theft are we talking about,

3 Mr. Beganovic?

4 A. Pickpocketing.

5 Q. Could you describe it for us, please?

6 A. I don't know how to describe it.

7 Q. Mr. Beganovic, were you ever convicted by a

8 final judgement of a court, and I'm referring to the

9 municipal court in Prijedor, judgement number K706/74

10 dated 13th of April, 1976 because you had committed a

11 criminal act, a criminal offence as described in

12 Article 249(1) of the Criminal Code, the criminal

13 offence in question being pickpocketing. Were you not

14 convicted to spend eight months in prison plus two

15 years on parole?

16 A. Where, in Prijedor? I don't understand.

17 Q. Were you convicted or not?

18 A. You mean for pickpocketing? No, that has

19 nothing to do with me.

20 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you're testifying under an

21 oath.

22 A. Well, I am testifying under an oath but this

23 is not correct. This is not accurate.

24 Q. Very well then. Let us go on.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

Page 1467

1 instead of asking the witness if he was convicted on

2 the basis of a certain article, maybe you should phrase

3 your question in a different way. Maybe the witness is

4 not familiar with the relevant article.

5 Perhaps you should ask a yes or no question

6 and you will get your answer. Perhaps you should ask

7 him whether he did indeed commit this offence or not.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I will do

9 that, Your Honour.

10 Q. Did you commit a criminal offence of

11 pickpocketing?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. Were you convicted for the said criminal

14 offence?

15 A. No, I don't understand this thing about

16 criminal offence. I did not commit any criminal

17 offence in 1976. I had just finished my military

18 service.

19 I don't know where you got this from. I

20 really don't understand what you're trying to say with

21 this. Like yesterday, you accused me of cursing, but I

22 didn't do that so you are continuing along the same

23 line. You are accusing people for what they have never

24 done.

25 It's the same thing like in the Omarska camp,

Page 1468

1 the Defence doing exactly the same thing that those

2 people did in Omarska. It's all under duress. It's --

3 Q. Mr. Beganovic, this is just hatred talking.

4 A. This is not hatred talking from me. You are

5 just acting like you did during the communist regime,

6 the same Serb communist manner.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

8 maybe the witness does not know what is provided for in

9 Article 249(1). As far as I understand, the criminal

10 offence in question refers to pickpocketing.

11 So, Witness, could you please answer the

12 question that has been put to you by Defence counsel

13 and I have to ask you not to change roles here.

14 Your duty is to answer questions put to you

15 by the Defence counsel. If you don't know the answer

16 to the question, you just say, "I don't know."

17 Mr. Simic, please, ask your questions and do

18 not argue with the witness. Try to ask your questions

19 in a precise and clear manner and you will receive your

20 answer. The answer can be yes, no, or I don't know.

21 So let us go back to the Article 249. The

22 offence described is pickpocketing and the question

23 is: Were you or were you not convicted for this

24 particular criminal offence by the municipal court in

25 Prijedor?

Page 1469

1 Could you answer that question, Witness?

2 Were you convicted for that criminal offence or not?

3 A. In Prijedor, no.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

5 you have the answer, so please continue.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very

7 much, Mr. President.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Beganovic, between 1977 and 1980, were

10 you ever convicted for a criminal offence concealing

11 and handling stolen goods by the court in Prijedor?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Beganovic. Do you know where

14 the court in Zagreb is located, the so-called Peace

15 Palace?

16 A. Yes, I think I do.

17 Q. Were you ever convicted in Zagreb for any

18 criminal offence?

19 A. Yes. Because I did not have a train ticket

20 on a train journey so they accused me of something, but

21 nothing was ever proved. You're bringing up things

22 that have nothing to do with honesty.

23 Q. Well, and now, you say that there indeed has

24 been a legal proceedings against you in Zagreb?

25 A. Yes, I know what I did. I was travelling on

Page 1470

1 a train. I did not have a valid ticket. They called

2 the police and they accused me of something which they

3 never managed to prove. Please, give me some proofs

4 and then present them to this Chamber. What about

5 these people here? Have they been convicted?

6 Q. This need not interest you at the moment,

7 Mr. Beganovic. Let me go back to my question. Were

8 you convicted for pickpocketing on a train in Zagreb?

9 A. They charged me with that, but they never

10 proved that. I didn't have a ticket. Please just tell

11 me if they have managed to prove anything.

12 Q. Were you not convicted for one year and three

13 years on probation?

14 A. Well, they worked the same way as those

15 people in Omarska.

16 Q. So the Croats worked the same way as the

17 Serbs did?

18 A. Well, you know who were members of the police

19 in Zagreb and the former Yugoslavia. You are trying

20 now to present the wrong picture here in court.

21 Q. Was the judge in Zagreb also Serb?

22 A. He probably was or maybe he wasn't, but it

23 was the police who played the major role there. Never

24 in my life has a single criminal offence been proved

25 against me.

Page 1471

1 And they always tried to accuse me of being a

2 thief, a criminal, because actually I was against the

3 system which was in place at that time. Please, do not

4 bring up things that have never been proved against

5 me. We are here to try war crimes.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

7 let me interrupt you once again. You're not here to

8 argue with the counsel and the counsel is not here to

9 argue with you.

10 You are here to answer questions in a clear

11 manner, in a precise manner, concisely and clearly.

12 And you have to concentrate yourself to the questions

13 put to you by the Defence counsel.

14 You have to understand that the counsel has

15 the right to conduct a cross-examination of you as a

16 witness about what you told to Ms. Hollis, and he also

17 has the right to cross-examine you on your

18 credibility.

19 The Defence counsel will continue with his

20 questions and please answer with yes, no, or I don't

21 know. Otherwise, we will never finish.

22 And let me also remind Mr. Simic to ask

23 questions in a concise and precise manner and try to

24 obtain answers in this way. And please, try to avoid

25 arguing with the witness.

Page 1472

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

2 Mr. President.

3 Q. Mr. Beganovic, were you tried and convicted

4 in Novi Sad for the criminal offence of bribery of an

5 official and authorised individual in order to engage

6 in illegal activity?

7 A. Again, I was first released, then the

8 policeman was to be punished. And then in the end, to

9 avoid punishing the policeman, they punished me. These

10 are all put up affairs, this whole biography is a

11 fabrication by the Prijedor SUP to give the impression

12 that I was a criminal.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

14 the answer should be yes or no. Were you convicted?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is

17 sufficient as an answer.

18 Continue, Mr. Simic.

19 A. Why don't you list everything that you have

20 and I will say immediately that I was convicted and

21 that will speed everything up.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Were you convicted in the District Court in

24 Banja Luka as well for a very serious traffic offence

25 of driving under conditions of inebriation, very heavy

Page 1473

1 alcoholism?

2 A. I was.

3 Q. Now that you have admitted to things that you

4 did not mention before, let us go through the whole

5 list quickly and you can tell me yes or no.

6 A. Very well.

7 Q. Pickpocketing in Prijedor; eight months of

8 imprisonment, two years probation.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Third Municipal Court in Prijedor; for

11 concealing and handling stolen goods, a fine of 2.000

12 dinars.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Municipal Court in Zagreb, pickpocketing; one

15 year imprisonment, three years on probation.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Ruling of the District Court in Banja Luka,

18 one year in prison and seizure of a driving license,

19 confiscation of a driving license. Decision of the

20 Municipal Court in Novi Sad; seven months of

21 imprisonment, three years on probation.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Beganovic.

24 A. When I was such a criminal, how come I never

25 went to prison? I always got these probational

Page 1474

1 sentences.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

3 leave it to the Judges to make their own conclusions.

4 You provide the information. The Tribunal is here to

5 make the conclusions.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Are any proceedings being conducted against

8 you in Prijedor in connection with events that took

9 place a couple of months ago?

10 A. A couple of months ago? What on earth could

11 that be? How do I know? I was in Prijedor as a

12 tourist a couple of months ago, and that's all.

13 Q. If you went there as a tourist a couple of

14 months ago, did an incident occur?

15 A. Yes, it did, and I reported it.

16 Q. What kind of incident?

17 A. Verbal and physical -- I was physically

18 attacked in Prijedor, on the road. On the

19 Prijedor-to-Sanski Most road, at Tukovi, I was

20 physically attacked. I have witnesses of that.

21 Q. We'll come back to that. That's all for the

22 moment. Thank you.

23 Mr. Beganovic, I should like to speed things

24 up a little, move forward, linked to some of your

25 testimony yesterday.

Page 1475

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

2 Mr. Simic, please speed things up because we have spent

3 almost 40 minutes talking about weapons and the legal

4 position of the witness. We've been talking only about

5 those weapons and the record of the witness.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I accept part

7 of the blame, but I think Mr. Beganovic shares that

8 blame with me.

9 Q. Yesterday you said that when the first 1.200

10 German marks were taken from you when you went to the

11 toilet, by people from Banja Luka, you said that this

12 policeman said to you when he took those 1.200 German

13 marks from you, "If you tell anyone, I'll kill you."

14 A. Yes, that's what he said.

15 Q. Very well. How can you explain, and you have

16 repeated several times, that everything could be done

17 in public, without concealing what they were doing?

18 A. Why, then, would he say, "If you tell anyone,

19 I'll kill you"? He said that I shouldn't tell anyone

20 in case his superiors might take the money away from

21 him. They had to carry that money to them. The lower

22 level people had to hand over money to those higher up,

23 and these sitting here had to pass it on to Milan

24 Andzic and to others above them. So Brk carried the

25 money to Milan Andzic; they were working for him. This

Page 1476

1 is common knowledge. Everyone knew about that in

2 Omarska.

3 Q. I'm afraid the witness is responding in the

4 old way.

5 A. Well, I have to explain because you asked

6 me.

7 Q. Mr. Beganovic, in your earlier statements, I

8 see -- and I think there is a technical error there --

9 that in your statements, the date of the takeover has

10 been confused with the day of the military

11 counterattack on Prijedor.

12 A. I don't understand what you mean by

13 "counterattack".

14 Q. We'll come to that. Were there any armed

15 operations on the 30th of April?

16 A. As far as I know, they barged in, masked,

17 under weapons.

18 Q. Was there a conflict?

19 A. How do I know? I wasn't in that part of

20 town.

21 Q. Correct. On the 30th of May, when an attempt

22 was made at a counterattack, you used the term "if it

23 took place at all," and you said that you were

24 listening to the radio, together with Kapetanovic, at

25 Dr. Sadikovic's house, and that the radio was giving

Page 1477

1 instructions as to how you should behave.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were there any reports as to what had

4 happened during the night in the town of Prijedor?

5 A. What had happened the previous night?

6 Q. That same night, yes.

7 A. How do I know what happened when I ended up

8 in the camp?

9 Q. Mr. Beganovic, my question is very clear: In

10 the course of the night of the 30th of May, early in

11 the morning prior to your arrest, or a couple of hours,

12 five or six hours, was there a very fierce armed

13 conflict in Prijedor? Did the radio report about that?

14 A. I didn't hear any reports on the radio, nor

15 did I know that there was a conflict. I just saw a

16 large number of Serb troops in my area; that's all I

17 saw. And that is what I said in my statement.

18 Q. So that night you didn't hear any armed

19 conflict?

20 A. What do you mean "armed conflict"? What sort

21 of armed conflict? Are you saying --

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

23 you asked whether there was an armed conflict in the

24 night of the 30th of May. The witness has said that he

25 didn't know. Don't insist on that, please. Otherwise

Page 1478

1 we'll never make any progress.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. The radio reported on the death of 15 or 16

4 Serb policemen.

5 A. They would report on Serb deaths on the radio

6 in Croatia. What do I care about Serb deaths, deaths

7 of terrorists who went to Croatia to loot there? They

8 came back with a booty and then he got killed. What do

9 I care? Let them all get killed in that way, to fight

10 like that and go to war like that, in the interests of

11 booty. And that is a JNA army. It's a looting war.

12 Don't ask me these things, whether I cared about 16

13 thieves getting killed.

14 Q. Did you hear the news that 16 people got

15 killed?

16 A. I did not, nor did I listen to any such

17 news.

18 Q. Mr. Beganovic, let us go back to the event

19 that we're most concerned with, and that is this second

20 beating by Nikica Janjic.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Let me first try and establish when this

23 happened.

24 A. You mean at what time?

25 Q. No. No.

Page 1479

1 A. You mean the date?

2 Q. Slowly. Let me ask the questions.

3 A. Hurry things up a little because of the

4 Judges.

5 Q. Could you tell us roughly the date, not the

6 time, when this occurred.

7 A. I can tell you roughly that it was in

8 mid-June. That is a very rough, approximate, date.

9 Q. I have to go back to your statement yesterday

10 and your testimony in the Tadic trial. That evening,

11 did you spend the night in the big room next to the

12 restaurant?

13 A. Behind the restaurant, yes.

14 Q. We know what we're talking about. Fine. Did

15 you, after that, spend a few nights somewhere else?

16 A. I was returned to the pista the next day, the

17 next morning.

18 Q. How much time did you spend at the pista?

19 A. About 10 days, 10 or 12, 10 or 11.

20 Q. Fine. After the first beating, you spent two

21 nights in the "white house".

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. According to a reconstruction of the events.

24 Then you were returned to the pista, according to your

25 statement.

Page 1480

1 A. Yes, briefly, and then I went back to number

2 15.

3 Q. You went back to number 15. In your signed

4 statement, you said that this second beating occurred a

5 couple of days prior to St. Peter's Day.

6 A. I don't know whether it was Peter's Day. It

7 was some sort of a festivity. It may have been some

8 other holiday which they celebrated by setting fire to

9 people and throwing them into wells.

10 Q. We're talking about this particular event.

11 Did it occur a couple of days prior to those fires and

12 burnings that you're talking about?

13 A. It was on that same day. No, actually, two

14 or three days before that, this second beating. Two or

15 three days before, tyres were set on fire and people

16 were thrown into the wells.

17 Q. Would you please tell me clearly that the

18 second beating by Janjic took place a couple of days

19 before the bonfires?

20 A. Yes, maybe two days before.

21 Q. Yesterday in your testimony, you described

22 Mr. Kvocka as almost a friend --

23 A. No, my mother was a close friend with his

24 mother-in-law. That is what I said.

25 Q. Yes, that is how I understood you. Did you

Page 1481

1 know Mr. Kvocka personally?

2 A. I knew him from town, yes. I would never

3 socialise with anyone like that. You expect me to be

4 friends with such a person?

5 Q. Mr. Beganovic --

6 A. The communists made people like that, people

7 like he was, criminals.

8 Q. Let me quote from your statement, given two

9 years after the event. So I assume your memory was

10 fresher then than it is today, and I quote:

11 "With Drago Prcac, a Serb shift leader,

12 shift commander, who replaced somebody whom other

13 people called Kvocka ..."

14 Mr. Beganovic, does that describe somebody

15 you knew so well, by saying that "other people called

16 Kvocka" rather than saying "Miroslav Kvocka" or simply

17 "Policeman Kvocka"? Please don't ask me anything. I

18 am the one asking the questions.

19 A. There may be a technical mistake in the

20 translation when I said "other people called Kvocka."

21 Everybody called him Kvocka. Why would I say that?

22 Is that how you want to save him?

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

24 Mr. President.

25 Q. Mr. Beganovic, we're talking about the second

Page 1482

1 beating prior to St. Peter's Day. Why did you seek

2 assistance from Mr. Kvocka, in view of your family

3 links between your mother and his mother-in-law and the

4 fact that he brought food to your mother? Why didn't

5 you ask him for assistance?

6 A. How could I ask for assistance from somebody

7 who wanted to throw my body into the pit? Who ever was

8 given any assistance by him in Omarska. You want an

9 answer? That is your answer.

10 Q. My question is: Did you know that he wrote

11 that down before that?

12 A. Not before Nikica told me.

13 Q. Why didn't you ask for his assistance before

14 that?

15 A. Both he and Ckalja were at the entrance.

16 Q. Did you contact with him?

17 A. No. He did his part, he said where I should

18 go and he went off, probably not to be on the spot when

19 these things happened. He knew what he was doing.

20 Q. Mr. Beganovic, he had to write it down, Emir

21 Beganovic. He could have simply given orders.

22 A. How did he know that there would be a trial?

23 Maybe I made the whole thing up.

24 Q. Why would anyone write that down when he

25 could have said it?

Page 1483

1 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, for the

2 interpretation, this is quite impossible.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have to

4 intervene. You know that we have interpreters here.

5 It is impossible, Witness, to follow. You have to slow

6 down. You have to make breaks between the questions

7 and the answers. And I have to remind Mr. Simic once

8 again: Ask questions.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

10 I am trying to do that.

11 JUDGE WALD: Excuse me, Mr. Simic. I'm

12 having difficulty following the line of your

13 cross-examination, because it seems to me that you keep

14 asking the witness why somebody else is doing

15 something. And since he probably has no idea why a

16 third party would be doing something, and that's not

17 within the scope of what he knows, it sounds to me like

18 you're making an argument that may more properly be

19 made at the time when you make your closing argument,

20 or at least I'm having difficulty figuring out what you

21 want him to say about somebody else's reasons for doing

22 something. Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is

24 exactly why I really have to ask you once again to try

25 and ask questions, questions which go to the knowledge

Page 1484

1 of the witness. Because if you ask the witness why a

2 third person did something or thought something, we

3 will never finish, Mr. Simic. You know that.

4 Please, go directly to the matter and ask

5 specific questions to which he can provide answers.

6 Otherwise we will enter into a debate and we are not

7 here to debate or to argue. We're not here to make

8 allegations but to obtain information and the

9 allegations, and submissions will follow after that.

10 So would you please, all of you, bear in mind

11 a very simple rule of direct examination and

12 cross-examination. The rule of three C's: Clear,

13 concrete, and concise. Please, ask clear and specific

14 questions to which the witness can provide answers

15 because of his knowledge.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, if the Prosecution

17 could just make a simple procedural request at this

18 point. It would assist the Prosecution if, when

19 counsel is referring to a statement or the transcript,

20 if they would note what page of the statement they're

21 referring to. That way it would be easier for us to

22 find what they are referring to.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have not

24 been provided with the relevant statement.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

Page 1485

1 Mr. Simic. Would it be possible for you to tell the

2 Judges and the Prosecution counsel the page, the number

3 of the page of the document you're referring to so that

4 we can follow.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

6 Mr. President. I think I will be able to do that, and

7 I will soon finish the examination.

8 Q. Mr. Beganovic, the note which was shown to

9 you by late Nikica Janjic, was that note a death

10 sentence for you?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. Mr. Beganovic, in your statement on page 12,

13 the statement you gave to the investigators, you did

14 not mention that -- how come that you didn't mention

15 not one single time on those 22 pages such a

16 significant event that -- namely that a death sentence

17 was imposed to you while you were in Omarska?

18 I'm referring to your statement given in 1994

19 and in the beginning of 1995, the statements in which

20 you did not mention this fact. You did not mention

21 such an important event as a death sentence?

22 A. Well, of course it was a death sentence. My

23 corpse was supposed to be thrown in pit number two.

24 Why was I supposed to state that? It was a normal

25 thing. I was sentenced to that in Omarska at least 100

Page 1486

1 times.

2 Q. I want an answer, Witness.

3 A. Well, I told you. You didn't ask me a

4 specific question. When you ask me specific questions,

5 I will give you specific answers. Please, do not try

6 to be philosophical here.

7 Q. In this statement which consists of 22 pages,

8 you spoke in some detail, not prompted with

9 questions --

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

11 the witness has told you that it was implicit in the

12 statement. I think you should have asked the question

13 in a different way. You should have ask asked the

14 witness: "Why didn't you mention this fact?"

15 And the witness actually told you that the

16 death sentence was implicit. So you have the answer.

17 Please, do not insist. Go on to another question,

18 Mr. Simic.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

20 Mr. President.

21 Q. Mr. Beganovic, I am now referring to your

22 testimony given to the Trial Chamber seized of the

23 Tadic case, page 117. Why didn't you at that time, in

24 any way, mention the note that you spoke about

25 yesterday, the note that you described as your death

Page 1487

1 sentence?

2 A. The case in question was the Tadic case, not

3 the Kvocka case, and I was asked some other questions.

4 I'm not the person asking questions. I'm only here to

5 give answers. And I give answers to the questions that

6 are put to me.

7 Q. On the following page, Mr. Beganovic, page

8 118, you talk about Ckalja and you also talk about

9 Kvocka and this was still during the Tadic case?

10 A. Well, this all depended on the questions. I

11 provided answers to certain questions. I actually

12 don't understand what you want to know. It's as if you

13 were speaking Japanese to me.

14 Q. I'm being very clear, Mr. Beganovic.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

16 the witness has given his answer. He said that his

17 answers depended on the questions that were asked at

18 that time. Please, do not insist.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I should like to finish with the following

21 matter. I will now quote from page 125 of the Tadic

22 transcript. Mr. Beganovic, at that time during the

23 identification of Mr. Tadic, did you say -- did you

24 refer to him as Serb garbage?

25 A. Yes, I did. Did I offend him, by any chance,

Page 1488

1 by saying that?

2 JUDGE WALD: I'm just trying to understand

3 the answer. When you say "refer to", "Did you refer to

4 him as Serb garbage," do you mean Tadic or Kvocka?

5 It's not clear. Tadic or --

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] To Mr. Tadic,

7 yes.

8 Q. And my last question for you, again, page 138

9 of the transcript. At one point you said, "What they

10 ate. What do I know what those scum ate? Pork, must

11 be." Did you state that in the Tadic case?

12 A. Yes, yes, I did. They ate pork and they

13 drank brandy and then they would go crazy in the sun

14 and the heat.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

16 Mr. Simic has simply asked you whether you indeed

17 stated that in the Tadic case or not. If it's enough

18 to say yes, you should stop at that.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise,

20 Your Honour. Yes, I did.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. And two last questions. Mr. Beganovic, while

23 you were testifying here yesterday, while you were

24 sitting here, did you at one point turn to Mr. Radic,

25 and I have to apologise in advance to this Honourable

Page 1489

1 Chamber and the ladies present in the courtroom, did

2 you call him a motherfucker?

3 A. Me, no. Who heard that? Who saw that? No,

4 it's not true.

5 Q. Mr. Beganovic, my last question. When

6 Mr. Kvocka noticed that and when he asked Radic whether

7 he, too, had seen it, didn't you again, I have to

8 apologise once again, Your Honours, didn't you say

9 again to all of them, "You're all motherfuckers"?

10 A. No, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't say that.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Beganovic.

12 A. Thank you too.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I have

14 concluded my cross-examination.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

16 very much, Mr. Simic.

17 Now, we will move onto the cross-examination

18 which will be conducted by Mr. Stojanovic in accordance

19 with the order which was indicated to us yesterday.

20 Mr. Stojanovic, could you perhaps come here

21 as well, because otherwise you will be speaking behind

22 the witness' back.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your

24 Honours, I think I will be very brief, so I don't think

25 it would really be necessary.

Page 1490

1 I should like to try and to lower the tension

2 a little bit which has -- was the result of this

3 previous cross-examination. The Defence of Mr. Zigic

4 has decided not to ask any questions of Mr. Beganovic.

5 We know from the Tadic case that Mr. Beganovic suffered

6 a lot in Omarska. Regardless or not withstanding other

7 circumstances and other consequences which the Judges

8 will be able to appraise, we can only express our

9 regret.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

11 Mr. Stojanovic, this is not a moment for that. Would

12 you just tell us whether you have any questions for

13 this witness or not?

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, we

15 don't, Your Honour. By what I have said I do not wish

16 to cause any prejudice to anybody else from -- anybody

17 else in this group, any other of the accused, so we do

18 not have any questions. Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

20 very much, Mr. Stojanovic.

21 I see that Mr. O'Sullivan will now take the

22 floor instead of Mr. Nikolic.

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: May I be allowed to take a

24 document from the Prosecution? May I be allowed to

25 step across the floor before I step to the podium?

Page 1491

1 May it please the Court.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. O'Sullivan:

3 Q. Mr. Beganovic, we've already established that

4 you met with the Office of the Prosecutor in December

5 1994 and January 1995; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: With the assistance of the

8 usher, can I ask that a copy of that statement be

9 provided to the witness. I also have a copy for Your

10 Honours if you would like to see it.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit

12 D1/2.

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

14 Q. Sir, you have two documents in front of you.

15 One document is in English and one document is in

16 Bosnian. Do you see that?

17 A. Yes, I can see them.

18 Q. I've given you the Bosnian version so you can

19 follow more easily my questions, all right? Did you

20 hear me? Yes? Did you hear me?

21 A. Yes, yes, I did.

22 Q. I must explain that you have -- I'm holding

23 in my hand the English version which is redacted. You

24 have an -- the English version -- do you see the

25 English version?

Page 1492

1 A. This is the English one?

2 Q. Yours is not redacted in English. Do you see

3 that? There are no black marks on your English copy.

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, I must explain

6 that the document that I received from the Prosecution

7 just now is the unredacted version which I have before

8 the witness. I apologise for giving you a copy of the

9 redacted version. That's the only one I had in my

10 files. We can certainly provide you with the

11 unredacted version as well.

12 Q. The reason it was redacted, Mr. Beganovic,

13 was for your protection initially. I'm going to ask

14 you to look at the front page of your statement.

15 A. In Bosnian?

16 Q. If it's more convenient for you, yes.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Across the top you see is written

19 "International Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia"; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And below that it says "witness statement"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And further down on that first page, you see

25 the dates of the interview?

Page 1493

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And at the bottom of the first page is your

3 signature; is that correct?

4 A. Not here on the Bosnian version; however, on

5 the English one, yes, it is there.

6 Q. And if you look -- if you flip through the

7 English version, at the bottom of each page is your

8 initial; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Sticking with the English version, can you

11 turn to the last page, please.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You may also have to turn to the last page of

14 the Bosnian version. It's written "witness

15 acknowledgement" on the last page.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And in the English version you'll see it's

18 dated 19/1/95. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You signed that acknowledgement on that date.

21 Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you signed the acknowledgement, you

24 confirmed that you made a voluntary, truthful

25 statement; is that correct?

Page 1494

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can we go back to the front page for a

3 moment, please.

4 A. Of the English version?

5 Q. Either one. You met with the investigators

6 over a period of four days, correct? 14 December,

7 1994; 18, 19 January, 1995?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On the first date, December 14th,

10 approximately how long did you meet with the

11 investigators? All day?

12 A. Can't remember.

13 Q. Would it be fair to say it was a normal

14 eight-hour day? Would you accept that?

15 A. Maybe with interruptions. It was a long time

16 ago. I really can't remember.

17 Q. And the second day, December 15th, would you

18 accept that it was similar to the first, a normal

19 working day with breaks?

20 A. I really can't say for sure. I know I

21 cooperated. I know there were breaks.

22 Q. What about the third day, the 18th of

23 January? Would you say that it was a normal working

24 day with the investigators, with regular breaks?

25 A. Yeah.

Page 1495

1 Q. Does the same hold true for the fourth day?

2 A. Probably. I don't know.

3 Q. The front page indicates you were interviewed

4 by three people, that's directly below the dates of the

5 interview. A person named McIntosh, Edgerton, and

6 Blaxill. Is that how you remember it, three people?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I take it they proceeded by way of

9 question and answer with you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And there was no pressure put on you to make

12 the statement, was there?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. You spoke freely?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you were not hurried by these people to

17 make your statement, were you?

18 A. No, nobody hurried me. In an investigation

19 like any other investigation, it went its course.

20 Q. And clearly you made this statement

21 approximately two years after the relevant events.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So these events were still very fresh in your

24 mind?

25 A. Roughly so.

Page 1496

1 Q. And would you accept that you gave the best

2 account of the important events, places, and people?

3 A. I did my best to be as clear as possible. To

4 answer the questions put to me in the clearest possible

5 manner, to tell the investigators how things happened.

6 So I did my very best. I sought to be as clear and

7 precise as possible.

8 Q. And complete.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Because you knew this document would be used,

11 or your statement would be used in trial proceedings.

12 A. I didn't know at the time whether it would be

13 used. I assumed that perhaps one day -- since the

14 investigators did appear that they were working on

15 something -- that one day, whether it would be in five,

16 ten, or twenty years, I didn't know at the time, these

17 people would be brought to trial.

18 Q. I realise it's been a while. But let me

19 remind you of the acknowledgement at the end of this

20 document, and it says, "I am aware that it," the

21 statement, "may be used in legal proceedings before the

22 International Tribunal." So you would agree with me

23 that you were aware of that. Just to remind you.

24 A. Yes. Yes, I was aware, but I didn't know

25 when the trial would take place. But I agreed to

Page 1497

1 testify and express my willingness to testify.

2 Q. I understand. Now, Mr. Beganovic, no where

3 in your statement do you mention the name Krle, do you?

4 A. When they asked me, they put me a question in

5 connection with Krle, I gave them an answer. If you

6 ask me about Kvocka, I can't tell you about Krle.

7 That's how it was in the investigation. That is how I

8 behaved. I answered the questions put to me, depending

9 on the interests of the investigators. I didn't know

10 what they were interested in, whether it was Kvocka or

11 Dusko Tadic.

12 Q. Please listen to my question and answer it,

13 all right? No where in your statement do you mention

14 the name Krle. Do you agree with that?

15 A. I don't know. I don't remember. But if you

16 say I didn't, then I didn't.

17 Q. You accept you didn't?

18 A. If it's not in the statement -- I don't know

19 my statement by heart -- but if it's not in the

20 statement, then I didn't.

21 Q. Can I ask you to turn to page 17 of the

22 Bosnian version, which is page 18 of the English

23 version.

24 A. Which page?

25 Q. Page 17 in the Bosnian version.

Page 1498

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which is page 18 in the English version, for

3 those following in English.

4 On this page, you talk about the person Brk

5 trying to extort money from you to be freed. Do you

6 see that?

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

8 Mr. O'Sullivan. Perhaps it would be useful to refer to

9 the specific paragraph so as to make it easier for us

10 to find the quotation.

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. In the English

12 version, it's the third paragraph, which is the longest

13 paragraph, five lines up, and in the Bosnian version,

14 it's the second paragraph, at the end.

15 Q. Have you found that, Mr. Beganovic?

16 A. You're referring to Brk, what I said about

17 Brk? Yes, I've found it.

18 Q. Good. There you talk about Brk trying to

19 extort money from you for your freedom; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You make no mention of Krle there, do you?

22 Correct?

23 A. Probably nobody asked me who else was there.

24 I always said that Krle was there in that group of

25 men. I didn't have any direct contact with Krle. He

Page 1499

1 was standing there, and I can't remember who else was

2 there. I know Brk was there, Krle, and another guard.

3 And as Brk spoke to me, I conversed with him and

4 negotiated with him whether I would be transferred or

5 not.

6 Q. Now, you told the truth when you made this

7 statement, didn't you?

8 A. The truth, of course. Everything is the

9 truth.

10 Q. When you testified in Tadic, you told the

11 truth.

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. You never mentioned Krle in Tadic, did you?

14 A. I didn't mention him because no one asked me

15 about him.

16 Q. You gave a complete account of events in your

17 statement here, didn't you?

18 A. As complete as the investigators were

19 interested in. I could talk about Omarska for years

20 and still it wouldn't be complete without mentioning

21 all the criminals and what they did in Omarska.

22 Q. My point is this, Mr. Beganovic: When events

23 are fresh in your mind two years later, you don't

24 mention Krle. You don't mention it in Tadic. Do you

25 expect us to believe that --

Page 1500

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

2 Mr. O'Sullivan. The witness has already given you a

3 reply. He said that his answers corresponded to the

4 investigator's questions. I'm sorry. Please move on

5 to another question.

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no further

7 questions.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

9 very much, Mr. O'Sullivan.

10 Mr. Fila, it is your turn. I don't know

11 whether we should make the break. We have seven

12 minutes to go to the break.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It will not be

14 sufficient.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

16 case, perhaps we should have the break now and resume

17 with your cross-examination. We will now have a

18 30-minute break.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Perhaps Mr. Simic

20 could finish in those few minutes.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Oh, yes.

22 Very well. Thank you very much for your suggestion.

23 Mr. Jovan Simic is now going to cross-examine

24 you. He is the Defence counsel of Mr. Prcac, and you

25 are going to answer his questions, please.

Page 1501

1 You have the floor, Mr. Jovan Simic.

2 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. J. Simic:

5 Q. Mr. Beganovic, you stated yesterday that you

6 didn't know Mr. Prcac; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said yesterday that you don't even know

9 his first name, whether it's Dragoljub or Dragan.

10 A. We called him Drago in the camp, Drago

11 Prcac.

12 Q. But you didn't know his real name, his proper

13 name, his first name.

14 A. I did not.

15 Q. You mentioned Mr. Prcac twice. Both times

16 you said that this was not something that you knew

17 yourself but that you had heard from others. Is that

18 correct? Do you have any direct knowledge about

19 Mr. Prcac?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

23 have no further questions. But I should like to appeal

24 to the Chamber that this is not direct knowledge or any

25 kind of evidence, so that in the opinion of the

Page 1502

1 Defence, this evidence is irrelevant.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we

3 heard the witness, Mr. Simic. Thank you very much,

4 Mr. Jovan Simic.

5 I think five minutes is certainly not enough

6 for Mr. Fila, so we're going to have a half-hour break

7 now.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

11 seated. We are now going to resume our hearing, as

12 soon as the witness is brought back to the courtroom.

13 Mr. O'Sullivan.

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. I must beg your

15 indulgence for an oversight on my part. Defence

16 Exhibit D1/2 was marked for identification but I did

17 not tender it into evidence. I'd like to do that at

18 this time, please. I ask that that exhibit be part of

19 the record.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

21 any objections?

22 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps I

25 should make a suggestion here. At the end of the

Page 1503

1 testimony, we could perhaps deal with all of the

2 exhibits that have been used during the testimony,

3 instead of dealing with them on an individual basis.

4 This applies both to the Prosecution and the Defence.

5 So at the end of the testimony, we will deal with the

6 exhibits altogether. I think this is much better than

7 proceeding on a case-by-case basis.

8 Are we ready to continue?

9 Witness, you are now going to answer

10 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Fila, who is

11 representing Mr. Radic in this case.

12 Mr. Fila, you have the floor.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

14 Q. Mr. Beganovic, I know that you have suffered

15 a lot, but I have to ask you a few questions and I hope

16 I will not cause you any pain by my questions.

17 First of all, let me ask you, in your

18 statement, the one that you had before you a moment

19 ago, and during your testimony in the Tadic case, why

20 didn't you mention Krkan?

21 A. No such question was ever put to me.

22 Q. Very well, then. You said the same thing in

23 response to a previous question, and I'm satisfied with

24 that.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That's very

Page 1504

1 good, Mr. Fila. You did not insist on that.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I assume that you didn't know Mr. Krkan prior

4 to your arrival here.

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. When did you first learn that his name was

7 Krkan, or Mladjo Radic?

8 A. In the camp.

9 Q. So you learned both his name and his

10 nickname.

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. So while you were giving your statement to

13 the investigators, you knew about his name.

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise to the

16 interpreters.

17 Q. In answering questions that were put to you

18 by Ms. Hollis, you mentioned that you had seen him pass

19 by the restaurant a few times.

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. You said you saw him in a kind of a glass

22 house.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let

24 me just state that at that moment the witness did not

25 indicate the precise location of the glass house. So I

Page 1505

1 should like to ask the witness to do it now.

2 Q. Could you please tell us exactly what

3 location exactly you had in mind.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher,

5 could you please help the witness to approach the model

6 so that he can answer the question put to him by

7 Mr. Fila.

8 [The witness stands]

9 A. It was in this area here [indicates].

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Very well, then. What was he doing there

12 when you saw him?

13 A. He was getting in. He was climbing down.

14 Q. You said that, but you said that he stood

15 there for a while.

16 A. Well, yes, he did.

17 Q. What was he doing? Was he standing guard or

18 something?

19 A. No, I don't know about that.

20 Q. Well, we won't argue about that. You don't

21 know what he was doing and that's enough.

22 You said that he was armed with an automatic

23 rifle at that time.

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Did you observe in what way people were

Page 1506

1 armed? I'm referring only to the guards.

2 A. Yes, I could observe that. Most of them had

3 automatic weapons.

4 Q. The same as Mladjo Radic, or were there any

5 others who were armed with different kinds of weapons?

6 A. Yes, there were other types of weapons as

7 well.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,

9 sorry to interrupt you, but maybe the witness could

10 resume his seat if you don't need him near the model

11 anymore.

12 Witness, you may take your seat. Thank you

13 very much.

14 [The witness sits down]

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, I'm here referring to the police and

17 the guards. I'm not interested in visitors such as

18 Zigic, for example. You said yesterday that Mr. Kvocka

19 had a pump-action rifle?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He had the same kind of weapon as Mladjo

22 Radic.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did anyone else have any different kind of

25 weapon?

Page 1507

1 A. Well, I couldn't tell you about that. In

2 most of the cases they had automatic rifles.

3 Q. Just like Mladjo Radic.

4 A. Yes, mostly.

5 Q. If I understood you correctly yesterday --

6 and I do not intend to argue about it, I just want to

7 check whether I understood you correctly -- while you

8 were in room 15, you were unable to observe what was

9 going on outside.

10 A. No.

11 Q. What about Mujo's room?

12 A. While I was in Mujo's room, I would venture

13 outside from time to time, so I would sit near the wall

14 of the building and I could see what was happening.

15 Q. But while you were at the pista, you could

16 observe what was happening.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Beganovic, let me state once again I

19 fully understand what you were going through. I know

20 you were not on a vacation in Hawaii. However, I have

21 to ask you my questions. As regards the two months and

22 six days, more or less, how much time did you spend on

23 the pista?

24 A. Between 10 and 12 days.

25 Q. So can we say that your testimony, in respect

Page 1508

1 of Mladjo Radic, Krkan, concerns that period of time?

2 Was it during that period of time that you occasionally

3 saw him?

4 A. I think I saw him more often later on.

5 Q. Where?

6 A. Well, when we would go out.

7 Q. Yes, but that would have been in the area

8 which you indicated for us. You're referring to the

9 area that you indicated on the model.

10 A. Yes, the area in the vicinity of the

11 restaurant, from this side of the table.

12 Q. Very well, then. So I did understand you

13 correctly.

14 You spoke about the guard named Pavlovic.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It's a bit difficult for me to ask this

17 question, but how did he receive you? Did he take your

18 identity card? How did this go?

19 A. Well, he approached me when he saw those

20 crackers that I had at the time.

21 Q. But he applied the same procedure to other

22 people before you and after you.

23 A. Yes, he was taking down the necessary

24 information.

25 Q. Your personal details, you mean. So because

Page 1509

1 of those fire crackers, I don't know what he thought of

2 them, but he stopped. And did anyone else resume the

3 making of the list?

4 A. Well, not in the case of myself personally,

5 except for Koka, who was making a list while I was

6 sitting in front of the "white house". So it was more

7 than a month later that I was registered again.

8 Q. Did you know Omarska while it was still a

9 mine?

10 A. Yes, I did know Omarska, but I never visited

11 the area comprising the hangar, the restaurant, and

12 other locations.

13 Q. You mentioned the living conditions there

14 which were inhumane, and I, of course, grant you that,

15 I agree with you.

16 A. They were not only inhumane but --

17 Q. Yes, but this is the description in the

18 status. Was it possible for you to obtain any water?

19 Was there a tap of some sort?

20 A. Yes, there was a tap. There were several

21 taps in room number 15, and also in Mujo's room.

22 Q. So the water was the water from the tap.

23 There was no other special water that was brought to

24 you from elsewhere.

25 A. No.

Page 1510

1 Q. Who prepared the food?

2 A. I don't know that.

3 Q. And my last question. You stated that you

4 were exchanged. You were exchanged for whom?

5 A. For some Serb civilians.

6 Q. Who were where?

7 A. Who were on the other side in Brcko

8 Gradiska. I don't know. I just passed by in the

9 exchange.

10 Q. Were they also detainees like you?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. How do you know?

13 A. Well, I know because people told us that. We

14 stood there for about an hour. They were probably

15 civilians who wanted to move from that territory and we

16 were exchanged for them.

17 They were mainly women, children, elderly

18 people over the age of 60. As for my group, nobody was

19 older than 40 years of age.

20 Q. Why did they have to be exchanged? Why

21 weren't they simply let go?

22 A. Well, you know what kind of war it was. You

23 know that all three national sides pursue the same kind

24 of policy.

25 Q. Well, I agree with you on that. Let me

Page 1511

1 finish with a question that I hope you will answer

2 truthfully.

3 Mr. Beganovic, in your testimony here and in

4 the Tadic case, the -- from those testimony, there

5 is -- there is an impression that you have certain

6 feelings about certain people in general, about the

7 whole of people in general.

8 It is not very nice to hear expressions such

9 as the "Serb garbage" and the "Serb scum" and I

10 sincerely hope that you do not think that.

11 A. Well, I don't really think that, but at the

12 moment, it was a reflection of my psychological state.

13 I now travel to Prijedor. I'm seeing Serb

14 people as well. I have drink with them, but I did have

15 also some conflicts, that is true, but I had conflicts

16 with people who are criminals.

17 And I went to Prijedor two months ago and I

18 would walk around the town, having drinks with Serb

19 people in Prijedor, and I don't have any problems with

20 that in that regard whatsoever.

21 Q. So I can conclude that as regards the two of

22 us, we will say hello to each other when we meet on the

23 street, and that we could have a drink together.

24 A. There will be no problem about that

25 whatsoever.

Page 1512

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

2 Mr. Stojanovic, does it mean that you have changed your

3 opinion?

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

5 Honour, I haven't. However, unfortunately, I do have

6 an objection here. An objection to one of the

7 questions that was put by my learned colleague,

8 Mr. Fila.

9 He asked the question about visitors of

10 Omarska and he mentioned the name of Zigic. Let me

11 just remind him that his client, Radic, has already

12 stated that he had never seen Zigic, and I think that

13 the reference to Zigic in this case would be somehow

14 inappropriate.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well

16 then.

17 Ms. Hollis. You have the floor for the

18 redirect.

19 Re-examined by Ms. Hollis:

20 Q. Mr. Beganovic, during your questioning by

21 Mr. Simic on behalf of accused Kvocka, you made a

22 statement about a man you called Kuruzovic organising

23 the TO. Who is Kuruzovic?

24 A. Slobodan Kuruzovic was first of all my

25 teacher and foremaster, and he taught mathematics.

Page 1513

1 When I grew up, we became friends, and we often went to

2 the area of Kozarac. We would spend weekends in the

3 mountain hut over there, mountain lodge.

4 But when the war broke out, he joined the

5 Serb army. He was the first one to enter the front

6 line in Croatia. He was one of the commanders. He

7 came back from Croatia with a booty, that is common

8 knowledge. He came back with a Mercedes on one

9 occasion and with horses as well.

10 He was one of the key men in Prijedor as

11 regards the issues relating to the military and the SDS

12 party. He was one of the best known people in Prijedor

13 at the beginning of the war.

14 Q. Excuse me, that is sufficient for my

15 question. When you say that "he was organising the

16 TO", what do you mean by this term "TO"?

17 A. Well, the territorial defence. But the

18 territorial defence of the Serb people, the Serb

19 military.

20 Q. And Mr. Kuruzovic, what is his ethnicity?

21 A. He is a Serb.

22 Q. During questioning about these weapons that

23 you received from your father, you indicated that you

24 received a hunting weapon with a sniper was the way it

25 was translated. What is a sniper?

Page 1514

1 A. A sniper is used for carbine rifles. You

2 install it on a rifle so that you can also hunt at

3 night. It was a custom at that time, it was a custom

4 to carry that equipment when you went hunting for deer,

5 wolves, boar and this type of game.

6 Q. So are you talking about some type of scope

7 for the rifle?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, you've been asked questions and you have

10 agreed that on several occasions, you were convicted of

11 various offences.

12 Regarding the convictions in Prijedor

13 involving pickpocketing and concealing stolen goods.

14 When were those convictions, if you remember? What

15 years?

16 A. In early 1970s. I don't want to spend too

17 much time on that. Those offences were actually

18 extorted the same way extortions were made in Omarska.

19 They were made by Mr. Miskovic who was dealing with

20 juvenile delinquents.

21 Q. If I could cut you off on that. In the early

22 1970s, what would have been your age at that time? How

23 old were you?

24 A. 15, 16, 17.

25 Q. And regarding the pickpocketing on the tram

Page 1515

1 in Zagreb, how old were you at that time?

2 A. I think I was 20.

3 Q. And regarding this traffic offences, drunk

4 driving in Banja Luka, how old were you then?

5 A. 25, I believe.

6 Q. And what exactly, to your knowledge, were you

7 charged with in Novi Sad? What misconduct were you

8 charged with?

9 A. The man who was driving my car in Novi Sad

10 went on an errand in Novi Sad. I remained in the

11 cafe. There were five of us. We had come to Novi Sad

12 on business.

13 This man was a Serb, a young man who was my

14 friend from Prijedor. His name was Brane Copija. So

15 who -- he was at the wheel of the car, and he caused a

16 minor traffic accident.

17 The police arrived. I was not present. They

18 made a report, and the policeman came later on to take

19 the details of my insurance, because it was not in the

20 car. So he came to me together with him. So I gave

21 him my insurance number and I told him that the vehicle

22 was insured.

23 The person who was at the wheel was actually

24 not guilty of that traffic accident, it was the woman

25 who caused the accident.

Page 1516

1 And a report was made thereof and this person

2 had a coffee with us. He took all the details

3 regarding the insurance, and I asked him that he should

4 send the report to me as soon as possible and to send

5 all the information to the insurance company branch in

6 Prijedor.

7 A month later, a report, a criminal report

8 was made against me alleging that I had given him --

9 that I had bribed him with 100 German marks so that the

10 report would be in my favour. And I didn't need that

11 because I was not guilty. I was not at the wheel and

12 I -- my vehicle was insured.

13 I didn't have an opportunity -- I didn't even

14 have an opportunity to bribe the policeman because I

15 was not alone with him. And the policeman was supposed

16 to be discharged, but they fabricated some evidence

17 against me and they turned me into a criminal just as

18 they had been doing since I was 15. And in the end --

19 Q. If I could interrupt, that is sufficient for

20 my purposes, thank you.

21 Now, you also testified that approximately

22 two months ago, you were in Prijedor and there was a

23 verbal and physical incident there. What happened?

24 A. Well, as I said a moment ago, I visited a

25 couple of friends, Serbs, from before the war who are

Page 1517

1 also caterers. I visited a number of catering

2 establishments. We were sitting, talking, having fun,

3 just as we had before the war.

4 And then I entered one of these bars and we

5 started an argument in connection with Dusko Tadic's

6 trial. How could I have said that he was there? He

7 was never in Omarska. There was an argument.

8 And then one friend of mine and I headed

9 towards Sanski Most, and then we crossed the Sana River

10 at Tukovi -- this is a neighbourhood -- we were met by

11 Dusko Vujakovic [phoen].

12 He stopped us in front of the car. We came

13 out of the car and there was a light physical

14 showdown. That's all that happened. And now I hear

15 that I have been charged in Prijedor, and that criminal

16 proceedings have been instituted against me. So it

17 only means that what happened before the war and during

18 the war is still going on now.

19 Q. During your direct testimony, you testified

20 about events that occurred on the 30th of May, the day

21 that you were taken to the camp.

22 In your prior testimony, you indicated that

23 you slept in late because you had had too much to drink

24 the night before and that at some point you were

25 awakened by your friend, Asif?

Page 1518

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then you testified that you began to

3 listen to the radio and you heard these announcements

4 about what to do. So when you were listening to the

5 radio, hearing these announcements; do you recall what

6 time of the day that was?

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I have to

8 object. My learned friend is referring back to his

9 direct testimony and asking questions about his direct

10 testimony.

11 In my submission, re-examination is limited

12 to areas of cross-examination which are left unclear.

13 In my submission, my friend is trying to go further

14 in -- with his direct testimony and that's line 18 of

15 page 58. She's referring to his direct testimony.

16 I don't think that's appropriate

17 re-examination.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

19 Mr. O'Sullivan, perhaps it is a bit too early to

20 intervene because you remember very well that Mr. Simic

21 spoke at length about this question of radio reports.

22 So maybe we should wait for Ms. Hollis to put her

23 question.

24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: She has put her question to

25 the witness and there's no reference to any

Page 1519

1 cross-examination. That question comes on page 59,

2 lines one through four. There's no reference to

3 cross-examination in her question.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

5 Mr. O'Sullivan, until now, I thought that Ms. Hollis

6 was making an introduction before putting her

7 question.

8 In any event, let me not interpret Madam

9 Hollis. Let me give her the floor. Perhaps she has a

10 response to the objection of Mr. O'Sullivan.

11 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Your Honour, and perhaps when we have these

13 discussions, it would be better for everyone if the

14 witness would be asked to take their headphones off so

15 there's no suggestion that they are influenced by the

16 exchange. So I would ask the witness be asked to take

17 the headphones off.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 Please take off your headphones. Thank you very much.

20 [The witness complies]

21 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. These

22 questions were directed at the -- at trying to clarify

23 the cross-examination regarding when the radio was

24 listened to.

25 In that regard, the Prosecution believes that

Page 1520

1 it is possible to refer back to direct testimony and

2 then in order to clarify, the witness has already said

3 on direct it was the 30th of May that he was listening

4 to the radio.

5 On cross-examination, there was questions

6 about whether he heard something during the night or

7 early morning. I'm attempting to go clarify with the

8 witness at what time of the day he listened to the

9 radio.

10 In his direct testimony, he indicated it was

11 on the 30th. I'm simply trying to go back and clarify

12 that. I can, if Your Honours wish it, technically

13 point out the inconsistency in his cross and then go

14 back to my other questions.

15 I did not do that for expediency, but I can

16 do that.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I

18 understand now.

19 Mr. O'Sullivan, you still abide by your

20 objection after this clarification by Ms. Hollis?

21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no objection if

22 re-examination is limited to matters raised in

23 cross-examination which are unclear, and I didn't see

24 that happening, Your Honour, and that was the basis of

25 my objection.

Page 1521

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. So

2 the objection is overruled.

3 Madam Hollis, you may continue.

4 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness would put the

5 headphones back on, please.

6 [The witness complies]

7 Q. So in your testimony, when you were

8 testifying about listening to announcements being made

9 on the radio, what time of the day or night was it that

10 you were listening to these announcements?

11 A. It was during the daytime, about 11.00 or

12 12.00, I don't know, up to 1.00, at Dr. Esad

13 Sadikovic's house. Then I fled from that soldier who

14 fired at me, and then I entered the other house and

15 there we listened too, so that must have been about

16 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon. We listened to the

17 radio all day and they were broadcasting announcements,

18 until they arrested as many men as they needed.

19 Q. Again, to be clear, what date is it that

20 you're talking about?

21 A. The 30th of May, 1992.

22 Q. You were asked several questions about the

23 man you knew as Krkan, that as his nickname, the man --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- you saw in Omarska camp. A few of those

Page 1522

1 questions were posed that you had indicated in your

2 testimony that you saw him pass by the restaurant a few

3 times, and then you were asked if you saw him

4 occasionally. Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions

5 to clarify how often you saw Krkan in the camp.

6 First of all, when you were on the pista, how

7 frequently would you see Krkan?

8 A. Probably every time he was on duty in his

9 shift.

10 Q. If you can estimate for the Court, how

11 frequently would that be? How often would you have

12 seen him?

13 A. Well, that would probably be every other day,

14 roughly.

15 Q. On every other day, roughly, that you would

16 see him, how many times during the day would you see

17 him?

18 A. Sometimes I might have seen him ten times;

19 other times, twice. It depends how often we were told

20 to bend our heads down to face the concrete. Sometimes

21 we spent all day on our stomachs, up to 12 hours.

22 Sometimes they let us sit normally for a couple of

23 hours and then to lie down again, and so it went on.

24 So if we were in a sitting position, we could see him

25 more or less non-stop.

Page 1523

1 Q. During the time you were on the pista, where

2 was it? You have testified on cross-examination that

3 you saw him near the restaurant building. Were there

4 any other areas that you saw him while you were on the

5 pista?

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

7 have to object. This is examination-in-chief. I have

8 cross-examined after the questions put by the

9 Prosecution. Now we are expanding again. I think the

10 Prosecutor has gone beyond the scope of the

11 cross-examination. Thank you.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

13 Hollis.

14 MS. HOLLIS: The questions were placed to the

15 witness about when he saw Mr. Krkan, and when the

16 questions were posed, some numeric qualifying word was

17 used, "occasionally", "a few times." I tried to

18 clarify that.

19 Also he was asked, "You saw him near the

20 restaurant building." I'm trying to clarify, again,

21 where. So the question of locations was again put in

22 question by the cross-examination. I'm simply trying

23 to clarify where he was seen, if he was seen in

24 locations other than near the restaurant building.

25 That was raised on cross-examination. I

Page 1524

1 believe it is a legitimate area of inquiry.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but I

3 think that the witness got up to point to the exact

4 place. In any event, let us hear what Mr. Fila has to

5 say.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I asked him how

7 many times he saw him, in what period of time, and the

8 Prosecutor has clarified that point and I agree with

9 that. But the places where he said he saw Krkan were

10 indicated in response to the question of the

11 Prosecutor, and I actually had asked him to point them

12 out with the pointer. Anything beyond that is fresh

13 direct. Because the Prosecutor asked, "Where else did

14 you see him?" That's a new question. Thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

16 Hollis, can you rephrase, or refer to the question from

17 the cross-examination and then make your

18 clarification. If it is repetitious, please don't do

19 that.

20 MS. HOLLIS: Of course, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Beganovic, during cross-examination you

22 were asked if you saw the accused Krkan on a few

23 occasions in Omarska. At one point you were also asked

24 if you saw him a few times. Then you were asked if you

25 saw him near the restaurant building. You were

Page 1525

1 specifically asked by Defence counsel at one point to

2 point out the "glass house" where you said you had seen

3 him.

4 MS. HOLLIS: At least that is what was

5 interpreted to me, Your Honours. We can check the

6 transcript.

7 Q. You pointed to a certain area. Now, you

8 indicated you saw him at that certain area of the

9 restaurant in response to that question.

10 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, my questions are

11 simply: Did he see him in any other areas, because it

12 was in response to a specific location that he got up

13 and pointed. That's my review of the transcript, as I

14 saw it.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,

16 excuse me, but we are not going to insist on this

17 question further. It's an important question. If the

18 Prosecutor can't ask that question, the Judges would

19 ask that question. It is an important question for

20 justice.

21 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So put your

23 question, please.

24 MS. HOLLIS:

25 Q. Mr. Beganovic, in addition to that area you

Page 1526

1 pointed out near the restaurant where you saw Krkan,

2 what other areas, if any, in the camp did you see

3 Mr. Krkan?

4 A. I saw him later on, as I said --

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

6 Witness. Can you get up and point out the places,

7 please.

8 [The witness stands]

9 A. He would sometimes come out of this room

10 [indicates], which is known as Mujo's room.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

12 If Mr. Fila wants to, he can go up to the model,

13 please. Can you see well?

14 I'm sorry for interrupting, Witness.

15 Ms. Hollis, you may continue.

16 MS. HOLLIS:

17 Q. So you indicated that he would sometimes come

18 out of Mujo's room, and you were pointing to the side

19 of the restaurant building that is away from the

20 Judges; is that correct?

21 A. And we would be lined up here to sit there.

22 They would let us get some fresh air, so this would

23 happen sometimes. So that when we came out of Mujo's

24 room, we could see all the guards going by, we could

25 see them. Sometimes we could smoke, if we had

Page 1527

1 cigarettes. So they were always walking around there.

2 I don't know what they were doing. In any event, we

3 could all see them. That's nothing strange.

4 Q. Mr. Beganovic, excuse me, but we're speaking

5 of Krkan. You indicated that you would sometimes see

6 him coming out of Mujo's room. Who was coming out of

7 Mujo's room?

8 A. We, we, the inmates, the detainees were

9 coming out.

10 Q. When you would see him, where would he be

11 when you saw him?

12 A. He would be walking around here [indicates],

13 near the pista. He would go into the restaurant, come

14 back. They would walk around here [indicates], around

15 us. How do I know what they were doing? Anyway, they

16 were walking around here [indicates] on a daily basis.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

18 Hollis, I'm sorry for interrupting you.

19 Could the usher keep the camera focused.

20 Could the witness point one end and the other end of

21 the movements, instead of using the pointer left and

22 right. Will you tell us, from one end to the other

23 end, please.

24 Madam Hollis, can you help us?

25 MS. HOLLIS: Yes.

Page 1528

1 Q. You have indicated a broad area where you

2 would see Krkan walking about. Could you use the

3 pointer and show the parameters of that area, if you

4 will. So point first to the area that would be closest

5 to you when you came out of Mujo's room, where you saw

6 him, and then point to the area you saw him that would

7 be farthest away. If you could help us with that.

8 A. The whole of this area [indicates], a metre

9 or two away from me, if we were sitting here

10 [indicates]. There's only a couple of metres to this

11 semicircle. Then the kombi van would be here and he

12 would pass by us. So there was no distance between

13 us.

14 Q. Now, let's focus on when you saw him and when

15 you were on the pista. Could you indicate what areas

16 of the pista you saw him? And if you saw him all about

17 the pista, if you would simply say that.

18 A. No. I would only see him when he came out of

19 this entrance here [indicates]. He would either go

20 this way or that way. But we weren't really interested

21 in watching, all we cared about was that we wouldn't be

22 called out and that the guards wouldn't mistreat us.

23 Whether he was going left or right didn't concern us

24 much. It's only a couple of metres away from us.

25 Q. Mr. Beganovic, then, you have indicated with

Page 1529

1 your pointer that there were times when you would see

2 Krkan coming out of the entrance, the main entrance of

3 the restaurant building, and you would see him either

4 going to areas to the left or going to areas to the

5 right. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, what other areas around the camp, and

8 could you point to them one by one, what others did you

9 see Krkan during your time in Omarska?

10 A. He would spend some time here [indicates].

11 While we were sitting there, we would say, "There's

12 Krkan up there," and we were watching to see whether he

13 would go up or come down, because we were afraid of

14 every guard coming out of this door [indicates],

15 whether they would start beating or what --

16 Q. Excuse me a moment.

17 A. We could see through the glass whether it was

18 Krkan or Kvocka or anyone else.

19 Q. Mr. Beganovic, excuse me for interrupting

20 you. You have pointed to something and you said you

21 would see him there. Now, would you point to that

22 again and tell us what that is, please? You pointed to

23 that circular structure.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Point to that again, please.

Page 1530

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. What is that? Is that a window that you're

3 pointing to?

4 A. Yes. It's a large glass surface,

5 semicircular surface. And from the pista, one could

6 clearly see who was coming down the steps, who was

7 dwindling there, who was standing there. One could see

8 it clearly. The face of the person could be

9 identified.

10 Q. Are there any other areas in the camp that

11 you yourself saw Krkan during your time in the camp?

12 If there are, would you please point to those areas.

13 A. Other areas, except for this glass partition

14 in the area in front of the restaurant, I didn't see

15 him in any other place.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 [The witness sits down]

18 MS. HOLLIS: If you could leave the -- if the

19 witness could leave off the earphones, please.

20 Your Honours, the Prosecution believes that,

21 except for accused Zigic, about whom there was no

22 cross-examination, that identification has been brought

23 into issue on cross-examination as to all of the other

24 accused. We ask the Chamber what procedure, if any,

25 will be allowed for in-court identifications?

Page 1531

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

2 Madam Hollis, but I didn't quite understand. That must

3 be my fault. Could you please repeat your question?

4 MS. HOLLIS: I'm sure it's me, Your Honour.

5 During the course of cross-examination,

6 questions were asked that, in the Prosecution's view,

7 calls the identity of the individuals named by the

8 witness into question. So our question is: What

9 procedure do you wish to follow for in-court

10 identification of accused, or will you allow such

11 procedure at all? In other words, now at this point in

12 time, for the witness, if possible, to identify the

13 accused of whom he has spoke.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

16 Hollis, I know that you put a question to us, but we

17 would like to ask you, what do you suggest? In my

18 opinion, that should be done in the

19 examination-in-chief. But in any event we are where we

20 are. What is your suggestion?

21 MS. HOLLIS: First of all, Your Honours, I

22 have a question as to whether Your Honours will allow

23 in-court identifications by the witness. And secondly,

24 Your Honour, if that is true, we agree that typically

25 that is done in direct examination. In this instance,

Page 1532

1 we believe that it was better to wait for

2 cross-examination to see if identities were actually

3 put into question. We believe that it was done so, and

4 that is why we now, with this witness, ask to be

5 allowed to do it in cross-examination.

6 So we really have, I guess, two questions:

7 one pertaining only to this witness and the other a

8 much broader one, which is, will you allow in-court

9 identification by the witnesses?

10 JUDGE WALD: Can you cite us to any

11 jurisprudence in the Tribunal that would say that we

12 shouldn't? It's standard practice in some of our

13 operating systems to have in-court identification.

14 MS. HOLLIS: It's been allowed in other

15 cases. It's typically been a topic of discussion so

16 that the Judges indicate whether they allow it, because

17 some jurisdictions do not allow in-dock

18 identifications.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm waiting

20 for the translation. There's always this question of

21 translation.

22 Has the Defence got a spokesman who could

23 comment on this or is each one of you going to

24 respond? So you're going to respond on behalf of all

25 Defence counsel or not?

Page 1533

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No, Your Honour, I don't

2 think I can respond on behalf of the other counsel. I

3 don't know what they're going to say at all.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

5 case, if you have not been authorised, then I have to

6 consult the Defence counsel in the order. So I

7 apologise, Mr. O'Sullivan. So let me consult

8 Mr. Krstan Simic on this point.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

10 we believe that this should have been done during the

11 examination-in-chief. This was supposed to be raised

12 by the Prosecutor in the appropriate time.

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: In my submission, in-dock

14 identification should not be permitted. I recognise in

15 some jurisdictions it is, but in those where it's not,

16 there's good reason.

17 I submit the reasons that it is not because

18 of the facility with which a person in the dock can

19 look over and determine who is who in the court, and

20 the weight that Your Honours gain from such in-dock

21 identification is minimal at best.

22 It accomplishes very little. It is highly

23 prejudicial to the accused and does very little to go

24 to identification of events that may have happened in

25 this case as many as eight years ago.

Page 1534

1 So in my submission, it's an unreliable,

2 highly prejudicial, unfair procedure for the witness to

3 attempt to identify someone in court.

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The Defence of the

5 accused Radic does not dispute his identity. In our

6 legal system, in-dock identifications are permitted,

7 and I couldn't object to that.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

9 Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your

11 Honours, I think that this method has already been

12 applied before this Tribunal, in particular in the

13 Tadic case.

14 However, in view of the overall

15 circumstances, this type of evidence could not have any

16 significant weight.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan

18 Simic.

19 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We do not

20 object to this type of identification.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As regards

23 the request by the Prosecution, and in view of the

24 submissions made by the Defence, the Chamber believes

25 that as regards the interests of justice, there are

Page 1535

1 some unfavourable conditions because this is a

2 multi-defendant trial.

3 There are, of course, other adverse

4 circumstances as regards this type of identification.

5 However, on the other hand, it is beyond dispute that

6 these persons were present in Omarska. This is not

7 contested.

8 So the Chamber will authorise this type of

9 identification to be made and will ask all the persons

10 concerned to behave in a civilised way by doing so.

11 So let me address the witness now. Could the

12 witness put on his earphones.

13 Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. O'Sullivan.

14 Not yet, Witness.

15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have a further objection

16 and that is the point as to whether or not this

17 identification which you appear to be allowing can take

18 place during redirect.

19 My learned friend has said that during

20 cross-examination, and I'm referring to the

21 cross-examination by Kos, the issue of identity was

22 raised. I submit it was not.

23 I did not talk about whether or not this

24 person recognised Kos. That was not at all the scope

25 or the questions I put in cross-examination, and I

Page 1536

1 submit it's inappropriate to attempt, at this point, to

2 go beyond the scope of my cross-examination.

3 My cross-examination did not deal or question

4 the identity of Mr. Kos.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

6 Mr. O'Sullivan, we have reached a ruling. We have

7 already made a decision. What is the meaning of your

8 intervention now? I don't understand. We have closed

9 the debate.

10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: There are two questions.

11 One which I've understand you to decide is that you

12 will allow in-court identification.

13 In my submission, that cannot take place in

14 re-examination unless that issue was raised and left

15 unclear during cross-examination.

16 My cross-examination did not deal with the

17 question of identification of Mr. Kos. Therefore, in

18 my submission, this matter cannot be dealt with on

19 re-examination. It wasn't even raised on cross and

20 therefore can't be an unclear matter for this witness.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE WALD: Ms. Hollis, can you clarify for

23 us on what basis you think the identification question

24 was raised in cross-examination, particularly with

25 reference to the Kos cross-examination.

Page 1537

1 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

2 Your Honour, it is the Prosecution's

3 submission that the cross-examination which dealt with

4 whether or not Krle was mentioned in the 1994, 1995

5 statement was put in the record for the inference that

6 Krle was not part of the -- that the person, this

7 accused called Krle was not part of the incident with

8 Brk.

9 The Prosecution's view is that it calls into

10 question who participated in that incident and that

11 includes the identity of those individuals, one of them

12 being named Krle. That's the position for Krle.

13 Your Honour, I notice your reaction.

14 JUDGE WALD: My immediate reaction is it's a

15 bit of a stretch, Ms. Hollis.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour, and certainly

17 that would be a fair interpretation but that is our

18 position. That is our interpretation of that

19 question.

20 As for Kvocka, the question was this person

21 who you knew so well, you never talked about. Again,

22 we believe the implication is that if he's talking

23 about someone, it's not Kvocka, it's not the person he

24 has testified here today.

25 So we believe these raise the questions

Page 1538

1 of about whom is he speaking and is he speaking about

2 the person he now, in court, calls Kvocka.

3 Those are the reasons we believe --

4 JUDGE WALD: Ms. Hollis, my own reaction

5 is -- and you've come away with certainly a good half a

6 loaf by getting ruling in favour of in-court

7 identification as a general matter, at least, in

8 direct.

9 I continue, at least, subject to conference

10 with my colleagues, to be sceptical of whether or not

11 the question of identification was really raised in the

12 cross-examination.

13 MS. HOLLIS: I certainly accept that Your

14 Honour. We did indicate we believe there are two

15 questions. That is the Prosecution's basis.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Having

18 heard this additional clarification, we have one

19 additional reason too for the following:

20 The witness has made reference to a number of

21 nicknames during his testimony and from the point of --

22 from the interests of justice, it is also important for

23 us to know who he was referring to.

24 The Chamber will therefore allow in-court

25 identification.

Page 1539

1 Ms. Hollis, you have the floor.

2 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could put the

3 headphones back on, please.

4 [The witness complies]

5 Q. Mr. Beganovic, during your testimony, you

6 have indicated that of the people you spoke about that

7 are relevant here, you knew one person before the camp

8 and that was Mr. Kvocka.

9 Mr. Beganovic, are you able today to

10 recognise Mr. Kvocka, and if you are able to do so,

11 could you please point to him and identify him for the

12 record.

13 A. Yes, he is sitting in the last row. He's the

14 second of those civilians sitting there; second one

15 from the left. He's sitting next to Krkan, and he's

16 slightly balding. I don't know if this is enough.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 A. He's wearing a dark blazer.

19 Q. Now, you just mentioned that he was sitting

20 next to the person that you have referred to as Krkan.

21 Will you please make that identification and

22 tell the Judges where Krkan is sitting.

23 A. He's the first one from the left.

24 Q. And are you speaking of the left as I would

25 be looking at the person?

Page 1540

1 A. Yes. From our -- I mean from my left.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Beganovic, you also

3 testified about a person you identified with the

4 nickname of Krle.

5 Are you able to recognise Krle today and, if

6 so, would you please point to him and identify him.

7 A. Yes. He's sitting in the last row. He's the

8 third one from the left.

9 Q. Now, you also made mention of a person by the

10 name of --

11 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, shall I go through

12 all of them or just the ones I thought were in

13 question?

14 JUDGE RIAD: Third one from the left starting

15 to count from the left or -- please.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

17 A. Yes, if you start counting from the left.

18 From my left side. He's the third one in line,

19 civilian.

20 MS. HOLLIS:

21 Q. Now, Mr. Beganovic, you have now made a

22 reference to a man you called Zigic?

23 A. Yes. He's sitting in the second row from the

24 right. He's the first one from the right-hand side,

25 the first civilian. He is wearing a dark blazer and a

Page 1541

1 blue shirt.

2 Q. From your right?

3 A. Yes, from the right-hand side.

4 Q. Now, you also mentioned a Mr. Prcac and you

5 said that before the camp, you had no personal

6 knowledge of him. Are you able to recognise Prcac?

7 A. Yes. He is the second civilian from the

8 left-hand side sitting in the second row.

9 Q. Which row are you referring to?

10 A. The second row. He's sitting next to Zigic.

11 He's the second civilian sitting in the second row from

12 the right-hand side.

13 MS. HOLLIS: No further questions, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

16 very much, Ms. Hollis. Judge Riad.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Beganovic.

19 A. Good morning.

20 JUDGE RIAD: I just would like to understand

21 some points more clearly from your long testimony,

22 without entering into details. We will start at the

23 beginning when you started testifying, and you were

24 mentioning that the area of Stari Grad, which had

25 something like 200 buildings, was set on fire and

Page 1542

1 flattened by bulldozers. Did that happen during a

2 fight? Was there some kind of insurrection of the town

3 which led to this drastic measure?

4 A. No. No, there was no fighting at all in the

5 area of Stari Grad, and Stari Grad was intact until the

6 30th of May, around 12.00. In the afternoon of that

7 day, a number of houses were set on fire, including my

8 family house which was set on fire. This is at least

9 what I assumed was going on on that day, as I was

10 observing it from the window of Dr. Sadikovic's house.

11 It turned out to be true later on, and it was my

12 parents' house. Another house on the other side of the

13 town was also destroyed, and the area was later on

14 destroyed with a bulldozer. There are no more old

15 houses in the area of Stari Grad. Only the two

16 state-owned businesses remained.

17 JUDGE RIAD: You mean no specific events led

18 to that? You were not expecting that? You were living

19 in peace until that time?

20 A. There were absolutely no reasons for arson

21 and destruction, but this was the policy they

22 followed. They wanted to force the population to move

23 out, not only in the area of Stari Grad but in the

24 municipality of Prijedor as a whole. They wanted to

25 force the Muslim population, as well as the majority of

Page 1543

1 the Croatian population, to move out of town.

2 JUDGE RIAD: You said this was the policy.

3 Was it announced by the media? How did you know that

4 it was a policy and not done just by some gangsters?

5 A. Well, they were all gangsters. All those who

6 were wearing uniform, they all acted in the same way.

7 They obeyed orders.

8 JUDGE RIAD: So they were wearing uniforms?

9 Those who set the fire, they were wearing uniforms?

10 A. Yes. Yes, they were. Some were wearing

11 police uniforms and some, military uniforms. Most of

12 them were military uniforms. And quite a few of those

13 who were wearing police uniforms did the same thing as

14 those wearing military uniforms. The type of uniform

15 was not really important.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Did you know about it before?

17 Did you expect it? Was it happening all around you and

18 you were just waiting for your turn?

19 A. You're referring to the 30th of May, or in

20 general?

21 JUDGE RIAD: In general.

22 A. Well, this applied to all Muslims living in

23 the area of the Prijedor municipality. However, the

24 first victims were wealthier Muslims, intellectuals,

25 doctors, and so on. That part of the population was

Page 1544

1 the first victim. My house was set on fire on the 29th

2 of May, in the evening hours, around 11.00, so a day

3 before the alleged attack on Prijedor. And the fire

4 department didn't even try to react and try to put out

5 the fire. So my house on the Esada Midzica Street was

6 set on fire on the 29th of May. And the restaurant

7 that was located next to the house, they didn't touch

8 that because it was a new building. I had just built

9 it. And later on it was vandalised; they took

10 everything that was of any value from that restaurant.

11 And the area in question now is a parking lot.

12 JUDGE RIAD: May I just mention that you said

13 that you went to Dr. Esad Sadikovic's house and it was

14 not burnt. Why this discrimination? He was also an

15 eminent person, wasn't he? Why did they give him this

16 special treatment? Did they have some people who were

17 friends and some people who were enemies amongst the

18 Muslims? Was there any discrimination?

19 A. No, they probably didn't plan to set that

20 part of the town or fire and to destroy it. But the

21 area of Stari Grad bothered them because it was

22 inhabited almost 100 per cent by Muslims and the land

23 was privately owned by the inhabitants who lived

24 there. So this fact probably bothered them. There had

25 been attempts prior to that, during communism, to move

Page 1545

1 us out. They wanted to construct some sports

2 facilities. But most of the people stayed, they didn't

3 want to move out.

4 So this is why the area of Stari Grad fell

5 within the scope of their plan, because all of the land

6 was privately owned. The area of Stari Grad was

7 privately owned.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. But things did not stop at

9 Stari Grad, it continued elsewhere.

10 A. Things continued elsewhere and included the

11 area of Zegar, then the area of Carakovo, Brdo,

12 Hambarine, Biscani, Rizvanovici, Rakovcani, all of

13 which are 100 per cent Muslim areas. This was all

14 destroyed, including the town of Kozarac, which was a

15 98 per cent Muslim town.

16 So wherever the population was majority

17 Muslim, the area was destroyed, 90 per cent of the area

18 was destroyed. And whatever remained was later used by

19 Serbs from other parts of the country, from Knin, for

20 example. There are Serbs living in Muslim houses now,

21 and we are still unable to go back today, in the year

22 2000.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Speaking of going back, this is

24 just a digression, you are still living in Holland, are

25 you? You have a flower shop.

Page 1546

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE RIAD: You are not thinking of going

3 back.

4 A. I am going back to Prijedor. This year I

5 took part in municipal elections, I was listed as an

6 independent candidate, and I will go back, regardless

7 of the results of the elections. I wish to continue

8 doing business in my hometown. I want to go back, I

9 want to start anew, and this is the only objective in

10 my life for the time being. Nothing else.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Now, there was an incident where

12 you said they read you instructions where Muslims had

13 to wear white ribbons and form a line and go out.

14 First, these white ribbons, was it a rule to

15 go around with white ribbons all the time, or was it

16 just in this incident? Was there a rule that Muslims

17 should go around in the street with a white ribbon?

18 A. As far as I know they had to on that day.

19 What happened later on, I don't know. I was in the

20 camp. Nobody was allowed out in the street without a

21 white ribbon because his life would be in danger

22 because he would be accused of trying to pass himself

23 for a Serb. That was the situation those days.

24 Whoever would come out in the street would be wearing a

25 white ribbon. This is what I saw.

Page 1547

1 JUDGE RIAD: And when you wear a white

2 ribbon, how are you treated?

3 A. Sorry. I don't understand. What do you mean

4 "treated"?

5 JUDGE RIAD: If you don't wear a white

6 ribbon, you are killed. And if you wear a white

7 ribbon, how are you treated?

8 A. At that time we were branded as Muslims and

9 we were sent to the camp, like what happened to the

10 Jews during the Second World War. We were marked with

11 that white ribbon.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Now, when you were

13 wearing the white ribbon and you were walking to the

14 centre of town, you saw piles of dead civilians; some

15 of them were mutilated. Did you see that? Did you see

16 them being mutilated, or you just thought they were

17 mutilated? Did it happen before your eyes, the

18 mutilation, the torture, in the street?

19 A. No, not in the street. I passed by four or

20 five bodies put on a pile, on top of one another, and

21 in my opinion they looked as if they had been massacred

22 by bursts of gunfire. They had injuries all over their

23 bodies, so this must have been the result of bursts of

24 gunfire. But I wasn't paying too much attention to

25 that. I turned around and I saw other bodies on the

Page 1548

1 market as well, but then I could no longer watch.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that Mr. Kvocka --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RIAD: You said that Mr. Kvocka would

5 come to the camp in a 190 Mercedes, distribute

6 cigarettes, and walk around and issue orders. Could

7 you more or less describe his position in the hierarchy

8 of the camp? Was he obeyed by everyone? Was he

9 respected by everyone?

10 A. Yes, he was obeyed; he was respected. He was

11 a boss to them. He was a commander.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you also mentioned that his

13 mother-in-law was more or less an acquaintance of your

14 mother. Was that right?

15 A. They were friends. They had been friends for

16 years.

17 JUDGE RIAD: And then you mentioned that you

18 found an order -- this man, I think, who wanted to kill

19 you told you that there was an order by Kvocka that you

20 should be killed. Was that right? Nikica.

21 A. Yes, that's right. It was Nikica Janjic who

22 told me.

23 JUDGE RIAD: He said, "Emir Beganovic, kop

24 2."

25 A. Yes, that's what was written on the note.

Page 1549

1 "Emir Beganovic, kop 2."

2 JUDGE RIAD: If it was a friend of your

3 mother's, why would he do that, in your opinion?

4 A. On the 30th of April, there was no longer any

5 friendship between Muslims and Serbs, except for some

6 very isolated cases involving a Serb helping Muslims.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Was Mr. Kvocka considered in the

8 camp by the Muslims as a friend of the Muslims, having

9 as his family-in-law Muslims?

10 A. I didn't see that. But as far as I know, two

11 of his brothers-in-law came to the camp but they didn't

12 stay very long.

13 JUDGE RIAD: How were they treated, his

14 brothers-in-law? Did they have any privileged

15 treatment?

16 A. I cannot speak about that, whether they did

17 or didn't, because I was in a different room. I didn't

18 see them at all in the camp. This is what I heard from

19 other detainees, that they were there. But as far as I

20 know, no, they were not physically mistreated.

21 JUDGE RIAD: But only his brothers-in-law.

22 The other Muslims did not benefit from this kindness.

23 A. Nobody had any nice treatment.

24 JUDGE RIAD: You said that you were without

25 food for six days and without water, and you were taken

Page 1550

1 and beaten and so on. Was there any way of presenting

2 a demand or a complaint to the administration there?

3 A. We didn't dare ask to go to the toilet, never

4 mind to complain to someone. As soon as you

5 complained, you could lose your life. It was not

6 possible to complain. And if somebody saw that

7 somebody had bruises, then he would hit him even more,

8 "He's Alija's Mujahedin, so let's hit him harder,

9 until he dies." People even concealed the fact that

10 they were injured so that others wouldn't see that the

11 previous one had beaten him.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Did you feel at any moment that

13 the people who beat you and mistreated you were

14 separate from the administration, that the people at

15 the top didn't know about it?

16 A. No, not for a moment. They knew everything;

17 I can guarantee that. All the detainees can confirm

18 that, that those up there knew everything, those on top

19 in the administration.

20 In fact, it is the people in the

21 administration who did most of the killings and the

22 mutilations. Ninety-five per cent, I can say, came

23 from those offices where we were interrogated, beaten

24 up; maybe even a higher percentage.

25 By chance I was among the few who was

Page 1551

1 interrogated and was given water, and a cigarette was

2 given to me. Drago Meakic interrogated me and Obrad

3 Despot. Both of them used to work in the former SUP.

4 Meakic even said that he knew that I was never involved

5 in politics, that I was always in business, and he, for

6 instance, treated me quite normally. I was surprised.

7 I was half dead with fear when I entered there. But 95

8 of people came out beaten up.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

10 A. Thank you too.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

12 very much, Judge Fouad Riad.

13 Judge Wald.

14 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Mr. Beganovic, you

15 testified that when people got to the centre of

16 Prijedor, the men were put on buses and taken to

17 Omarska, or at least the men of a normal age, and the

18 women and children were put on buses.

19 Do you know what happened to the buses that

20 took the women and children? Were you in a position to

21 know where they went or what was done with them?

22 A. I don't know afterwards what happened.

23 JUDGE WALD: All right.

24 A. The men --

25 JUDGE WALD: You also testified that you were

Page 1552

1 on the pista for, I think, it was over 10 days, 10 to

2 15 or 10 to 20 days, and your first day was May 30th, I

3 think. So that would place you on the pista for most

4 of the time, except when they took you in for the rain,

5 between May 30th and mid-June; is that right? That was

6 the period that you were out on the pista. I just want

7 to nail that down.

8 A. Yes. Correct.

9 JUDGE WALD: You stated that you had formally

10 been a member of the army, the JNA, so you have some

11 familiarity with army discipline and hierarchy.

12 During the period that you were in Omarska,

13 did there appear to you to be a kind of police or

14 military discipline in effect between the guards and

15 their superiors and the administration? Did it appear

16 to you that there was an army-like discipline, or were

17 people just doing whatever they felt like, in terms of

18 the guards and other officials? Did you see evidence

19 of a regular army or police-like discipline or

20 hierarchy in effect during the period that you were at

21 Omarska?

22 A. There was nothing there, no discipline or

23 hierarchy. It was lawlessness. People could do

24 whatever they wanted. People could have killed as many

25 people as they wanted without anybody asking why or

Page 1553

1 how. Everyone came to settle their personal accounts

2 there. If they had some verbal disputes, if people

3 hated someone, they would come to Omarska and they

4 would kill them. There were absolutely no rules. None

5 at all.

6 JUDGE WALD: Let me ask you the question

7 slightly differently -- I have your answer to that

8 question -- and that is, many times in your testimony

9 you did refer to, I think, both Mr. Kvocka and, at a

10 later point, Mr. Radic as being bosses, that they gave

11 orders, which did suggest to me that there was some

12 kind of hierarchy, people who gave orders to other

13 people. Is that wrong?

14 A. No, you're not wrong. But they were orders

15 to beat up people, mistreat people, rather than the

16 other way around.

17 JUDGE WALD: Right. I understand your

18 point. But my question was directed at the notion that

19 there were some people, at least I read that from your

20 testimony, among the guards who were in a superior

21 position, who gave orders to other guards to do

22 something, whether it was good or bad. Is that right?

23 I mean, you referred to people as bosses and you

24 referred to Mr. Kvocka, at one point, as a commander.

25 So I'm asking you the basis for that. Did you actually

Page 1554

1 see, or was it that you heard about certain people

2 being the bosses of other people, being in a position

3 to give other guards orders?

4 A. Yes, they were commanders. But we never saw

5 any one of those commanders tell an ordinary guard,

6 "Don't do that. Why are you mistreating the man?"

7 and so on.

8 JUDGE WALD: I understand that very well, and

9 I have your point taken. But I am just trying to

10 establish the basis on which you understood, for

11 instance, Mr. Kvocka, to be a commander, which you

12 referred to, or Mr. Radic to be a shift commander. Was

13 it that you yourself saw them giving orders to other

14 guards, or you were told by other people that they were

15 commanders or shift commanders, or that they told you

16 themselves they were? Just the basis on which you knew

17 they were bosses.

18 A. They simply -- when we were on the pista, we

19 could see that they were giving orders to these

20 ordinary guards, and then they also addressed them as

21 commanders. And simply, they were commanders to these

22 ordinary guards and they were addressed as such, and

23 all the detainees knew that Krkan was shift leader,

24 that Kvocka is Krkan's commander and the commander of

25 the others. That was clear to every one of the

Page 1555

1 prisoners.

2 JUDGE WALD: You mentioned, just in answer to

3 one of Judge Riad's questions, that Mr. Meakic, whom

4 you knew previously, had been one of your interrogators

5 and that he had behaved relatively decently toward

6 you. That, I take it, was toward the end of your

7 detention.

8 Did you see Mr. Meakic around the camp in the

9 first days of your detention while you were on the

10 pista? Was he at the camp, to your knowledge? Do you

11 remember seeing him in those early days?

12 A. I cannot remember seeing him. But when I

13 went in for interrogation, I saw him for the first

14 time.

15 JUDGE WALD: Right. But that was later on, I

16 think, probably late -- according to your own

17 testimony --

18 A. This must have been at the beginning of

19 July.

20 JUDGE WALD: Yes. Yes, I agree. Just a few

21 more questions.

22 Now, when you said that you would see

23 Mr. Kvocka and Mr. Radic acting as bosses, giving some

24 kind of orders to guards, would you see them acting as

25 bosses only to the police officials or to the soldiers

Page 1556

1 who were around in the camp too? In other words, were

2 they acting as bosses over just people coming out of

3 the police station in Omarska or to other members of

4 the army who might be around the camp?

5 A. The ordinary guards were treated in the same

6 way as those who wore a blue uniform. There was no

7 distinction between them. They acted in the same way;

8 they could mistreat like the others. Of course Kvocka

9 was in charge of all of them, as far as I know. But

10 what was actually happening up there at the top, I

11 really don't know who Kvocka was accountable to.

12 JUDGE WALD: Two more questions.

13 One, you told us, I believe, that you saw

14 Mr. Kvocka around the camp. I think you used the term

15 at one point, "He was all over the camp." Was that in

16 the early days only? Did you see him many times or

17 only once or twice in July and August? Was he still

18 around the camp, the way he had been in the early days,

19 in July and August?

20 A. In August I didn't see him. At the beginning

21 of July I would still see him, until Mr. Prcac came to

22 replace him. I don't know exactly but ...

23 JUDGE WALD: [Question obscured by

24 translation]

25 A. No.

Page 1557

1 JUDGE WALD: I'll finish up here. You talked

2 about hearing screams at night sometimes or moans of

3 pain. Were those all men, or did you ever hear women's

4 screams?

5 A. I can't say that I heard women screaming.

6 JUDGE WALD: All right. My last question.

7 After you left the camp and you spent months in the

8 other two camps, Manjaca and Batkovic, were the

9 conditions better there? Were the prisoners treated

10 better there than in Omarska?

11 A. If I were to compare them, I would say that

12 Manjaca was a camp and Omarska was hell. It can't even

13 be called a camp; it was simply hell, every minute of

14 it.

15 JUDGE WALD: So the conditions were worse in

16 Omarska than in the other two camps that you spent time

17 in.

18 My very last question, then, is: Were the

19 other men that were with you in those other two camps

20 later, Manjaca and Batkovic, were they also just

21 civilians like you? They weren't people who had been

22 captured by the Serbian army, were they? Or were

23 they? Were they just people who had been picked up in

24 the various towns, the way you had been?

25 A. One-hundred per cent civilian population.

Page 1558

1 There wasn't a single one in uniform.

2 JUDGE WALD: Thank you very much.

3 A. Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

5 very much, Judge Wald.

6 I don't have any questions, Witness.

7 Therefore, this brings to an end your testimony.

8 Before you leave, we have to deal with the exhibits. I

9 think we only have Exhibit D1/2. Mr. O'Sullivan has

10 tendered it into evidence, Madam Hollis did not object,

11 so it is admitted into evidence. I think there are no

12 other questions to deal with.

13 Mr. Dubuisson.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] That is quite

15 so. But we must remember that there was an exhibit

16 submitted by the Prosecutor, and also another one this

17 morning, a plan, a detailed plan of the camp.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

19 Hollis.

20 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. That was the

21 point I was going to raise, that I believe those were

22 offered and admitted, and that would have been 3/76 and

23 3/77.

24 Your Honour, at the break I also spoke with

25 the Defence about the references to the trial

Page 1559

1 transcript of Mr. Beganovic in the Tadic case, and I

2 believe the Defence would like to offer that into

3 evidence. Perhaps I'm misspeaking for them, so I'll

4 let them speak for themselves.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Regarding

6 the exhibits that Madam Hollis would like to tender, I

7 think that the Defence had no objections.

8 Are there any objections of the Defence in

9 relation to the admission of these exhibits?

10 Thank you very much, Mr. O'Sullivan. Thank

11 you. So they are admitted as well.

12 Mr. Simic.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

14 the Defence would also like to -- the Defence of

15 Mr. Kvocka would like to tender into evidence

16 Mr. Beganovic's statement, at the end of 1994,

17 beginning of 1995, and the transcript of his testimony

18 in the Tadic case. Those documents have already been

19 marked, and I think there's no objection, but we would

20 like them to be admitted as Defence exhibits.

21 Also, in view of certain confusion about

22 court rulings, during the testimony of an expert

23 witness on police law, we will submit these documents

24 regarding sentences. Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think

Page 1560

1 that the transcript of the Tadic case is a public

2 document. No? So we need to tender it into evidence.

3 If it was a public document --

4 Madam Hollis.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I wasn't shaking my

6 head "no" at that. It was in open session; it is a

7 public document. If Your Honours can simply take

8 copies of it and if we don't have to tender those, that

9 would be easier. It's certainly your decision on

10 that. But it was offered in open session, so it would

11 be a public document.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On the

13 other hand, there is the same document that Mr. Simic

14 used, it is the same document tendered by

15 Mr. O'Sullivan. So perhaps I should like to ask the

16 registrar.

17 Mr. Dubuisson, we have a public document, the

18 transcript, and we have already admitted 1/2. It is

19 the same document which Mr. Simic wishes to tender.

20 What is the practical solution, Mr. Dubuisson?

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The exhibit

22 is D1/2, "2" indicating the number attached to the

23 accused. It is clear that once an exhibit has been

24 admitted, it is admitted into the file of the case.

25 Regardless which Defence counsel tendered the exhibit,

Page 1561

1 it becomes part of the case file.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it can

3 be used by all the Defence counsel.

4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore,

6 regarding the Tadic transcript, what about that?

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is clearly

8 admitted by the Chamber that the transcript should be

9 considered as an exhibit in this case, and it will be

10 so. We will make a copy and a copy will be distributed

11 of the Tadic testimony, and we will give it a number.

12 If it's a document of the Prosecution, it will carry a

13 Prosecution number.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, it was

15 used by the Defence.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 It can be "/1", saying that it is on behalf of Krstan

18 Simic that it is being tendered.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So please

20 will you mark this transcript. I think it is better to

21 have all these documents in our file. Which is the

22 number for Mr. Simic?

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be

24 D24/1.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For the

Page 1562

1 Tadic transcript. And for the witness statements?

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] That has

3 already been admitted. That is D1/2.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we've

5 dealt with all that. Are there any other remarks or

6 observations? I think the exhibits have been dealt

7 with now.

8 Witness, thank you very much for coming

9 here. We wish you to be able to resume the friendships

10 that you had, to be able to forget hatred, and to be a

11 good witness of peace and good relations with other

12 people, those who have other political options, other

13 religious, even, beliefs and ethnic beliefs. So thank

14 you very much. You may go now.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

18 Hollis, before the break, and to prepare things in

19 advance -- I see that Mr. Fila wishes to take the

20 floor. I apologise.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I

22 want to raise a matter of principle in this case, if I

23 may.

24 When the Prosecutor examines, or we do, the

25 other party has the right to object. Of course we

Page 1563

1 don't have the right when one of you Honourable Judges

2 are questioning the witness. But I wanted to make a

3 request, if possible, because when Judge Wald was

4 asking the witness, she said that the witness at one

5 point said that Mladjo Radic was a shift commander and

6 that he issued orders and that he was an important

7 person in the camp. I claim that he never said that

8 until the Judge put the question to him in that way.

9 What is my ability to react in such

10 situations if the witness is said to have said

11 something that he didn't say. Nowhere in the

12 transcript will you find that he said that Mladjo Radic

13 was the shift commander, but after this was suggested

14 to him, he confirmed that.

15 If I am asking -- if somebody was something

16 and what he was, I will probably be prevented from

17 doing so, but that rule must apply to all of us.

18 So we've now come to this fact that Mladjo

19 Radic was shift commander and this is something that

20 the witness did not say in response to my question. He

21 never said that he was an important person, nor that he

22 had important duties.

23 So could this go down in the record as my

24 remark and in future, if the witness is said to have

25 told that he said something, then the exact page and

Page 1564

1 line should be quoted. I have to protest in this

2 manner.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Look, you

4 know that we cannot hear you because we are all tired.

5 The time has run out for regulating organisation. We

6 have had the witness taken out and it is time for the

7 next witness to come in.

8 Mr. Simic, what is your question?

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

10 do have a question which is along the same lines as

11 Mr. Fila's.

12 We are placed in a position not to be able to

13 clarify certain points. Her Honour, Judge Wald, was

14 talking about Meakic, Drago Meakic. He has nothing in

15 common with Zeljko Meakic, and we had no opportunity to

16 clear up this question that it was an investigator and

17 not a member of the security.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you

19 repeated what Mr. Simic has already said. Never mind

20 though.

21 What I am going to ask Madam Hollis, we're

22 going to have a protected witness, I think; is that

23 correct? It is. What protective measures have been

24 asked for?

25 MS. HOLLIS: The protective measures are

Page 1565

1 pseudonym, face distortion, and for part of the

2 testimony, a private session.

3 We would suggest that at the very beginning

4 we would need a private session as we go through some

5 personal matters.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. So

7 that is decided. Thank you for reminding me.

8 I'm going to ask Mr. Dubuisson to prepare

9 everything including having the witness in the

10 courtroom, and we are going to have a half-hour break.

11 As for the questions raised by the Defence,

12 we're going to keep your remarks in mind and think them

13 over. So now we are going to have a half-hour break.

14 --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 1.52 p.m.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

17 seated.

18 Good afternoon, Witness, can you hear me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you

21 please read the solemn declaration that the usher will

22 give you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

24 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

25 and nothing but the truth.

Page 1566

1 WITNESS: WITNESS AJ

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

4 seated. Thank you.

5 Mr. Dubuisson will now show you a piece of

6 paper which bears your name on it. You will simply

7 indicate to us by saying yes or no if this is indeed

8 your name.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well

11 then. This is your name, but you will be referred to

12 as Witness AJ. Am I right, Ms. Hollis?

13 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will

15 first answer questions that will be put to you by Ms.

16 Hollis.

17 Ms. Hollis, you have the floor.

18 MS. HOLLIS: The Prosecution's understanding

19 is that we are now in private session.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] No, I have to

21 state that we are in public session.

22 MS. HOLLIS: Could we please go to private

23 session for this time for background information about

24 this witness.

25 [Private session]

Page 1567

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Page 1570

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we are

5 in public session. You may continue, Ms. Hollis.

6 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness AJ, I would now like to draw your

8 attention to the 30th of May, 1992. On that date where

9 were you?

10 A. I was staying with my neighbours some 50

11 metres away from my own house. And from there, when

12 the attack of the 30th of May started, I crossed the

13 River Berek Sana and went to a place called Ada and

14 this is how I reached the house of my best man, Zijad

15 Trnolic. I crossed the Berek creek and I reached his

16 house.

17 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, if we could ask

18 the witness to be able -- to be provided with

19 Prosecution Exhibit 3/76, the map of Prijedor. If that

20 could be placed on the ELMO, please.

21 Can you pull it closer so that the witness

22 can see that.

23 Q. Witness, if you could take a moment to orient

24 yourself on that map. You have referred to crossing

25 the Berek. Can you take a look at that map and point

Page 1571

1 for the Judges to what you mean by Berek, if you could

2 point to the map on the overhead?

3 A. Berek, it's here [indicates]. It is a

4 tributary to the Sana River which joins the Sana River

5 again.

6 Q. Would you point again?

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. So which looks to be a canal that joins off

9 the Sana river is the Berek?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. And you indicated that you went

12 to a house of your friend, again, pointing to the map,

13 could you show the general area of the city that you

14 went to?

15 A. This area here [indicates]. This is where we

16 went.

17 Q. Now, Witness AJ, after you arrived, when you

18 arrived at this house, what did you see?

19 A. In that house, I saw about 100 people, women

20 and children.

21 Q. And how long did you stay in that house?

22 A. Half an hour, maybe one hour.

23 Q. And then what happened?

24 A. Then a woman came together with two or three

25 soldiers in uniform who wore red berets and they told

Page 1572

1 us to go out, to leave the house, all of us.

2 So we went out and we went as far as the

3 road. And this is where the men were lined up and they

4 separated women and children from the men.

5 Q. Now, when you went to the road and you were

6 separated, what happened after that?

7 A. They asked who had any weapons. I was afraid

8 and I said I had a rifle and a pistol at home.

9 Q. And then after you told them you had the

10 rifle and the pistol, then what happened?

11 A. Then they told me that I should go and fetch

12 the weapons. So I went because it was in the vicinity

13 between 50 and 100 metres away from there. And when I

14 reached the back of the house, I saw a column of smoke

15 and I thought that my house was on fire.

16 Q. So then what did you do?

17 A. People from the town, the citizens that were

18 walking on the other side, including women and

19 children -- they were walking in a column -- they were

20 escorted by the police, by reservists. So I joined

21 that column.

22 Q. Now, after you joined that column, where did

23 you go?

24 A. To the Balkan Hotel.

25 Q. Now, as you went along with this group of

Page 1573

1 people, did you recognise any of the uniformed

2 personnel?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who did you recognise?

5 A. Bato Kovacevic. Cvijic; I don't know his

6 first name.

7 Q. These people that you recognised, what was

8 their ethnic group?

9 A. Serbs.

10 Q. What happened after you arrived at the Hotel

11 Balkan?

12 A. There were many of us there; the hotel was

13 full. There were women, children, men. And some time

14 later, buses arrived and they drove people away. I

15 don't know where to.

16 Q. Now, while you were there at the Hotel

17 Balkan, what did you do?

18 A. I went to the reception because I wanted to

19 call a friend of mine, Slobodan Balaban, who was a

20 specialist, a doctor. When I called him from the

21 reception, he was at home and he asked me where I was.

22 I told him I was at the hotel and he said, "I'll be

23 right there in a minute."

24 Q. What happened after that?

25 A. In the meantime, Ranko Vujasinovic came. He

Page 1574

1 touched me on my shoulder and he asked me what I was

2 doing there.

3 Q. How did you respond to that?

4 A. I told him I was waiting for Batan, whom he

5 also knew; he probably knew him better than I did.

6 Q. What happened after that?

7 A. Then he cursed my mother, he kicked me in my

8 buttocks, and he took a bayonet, but Ritan, who was the

9 chief of the reception, was there. Ranko Stojanovic

10 was also there. And they sort of told me, "What are

11 you doing? Are you normal?"

12 Q. What happened after that?

13 A. He grabbed me by the shoulder and he threw me

14 out of the hotel, together with Muharem Murselovic, and

15 he took us to the bus.

16 Q. When you say "he" threw you out of the hotel,

17 who are you referring to?

18 A. To Ranko Vujasinovic.

19 Q. What is his ethnic group?

20 A. He was a Serb.

21 Q. Your friend the doctor, what was his ethnic

22 group?

23 A. He was a Serb too.

24 Q. Now, you mentioned that a person named Ritan

25 intervened. What was Ritan's ethnic group?

Page 1575

1 A. Serb.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask the witness to

3 speak into the microphone, please.

4 MS. HOLLIS:

5 Q. Now, once you were pushed toward the bus, did

6 you then get onto the bus?

7 A. Ranko told the driver to open the door and to

8 drive off this scum, and then he kicked me in the

9 behind once again. We got on the bus and the bus

10 started off towards Luka.

11 Q. Now, where did the bus go?

12 A. To the MUP. Sorry, to the MUP. MUP or SUP,

13 that's where it stopped.

14 Q. When you arrived at the SUP, what did you

15 observe there?

16 A. The bus stopped. Muharem Murselovic got off

17 the bus because he saw Milutin Cado, a police

18 commander, and he wanted to address him, to ask him

19 something. I don't know what.

20 Q. What did you observe then?

21 A. Muharem came back to the bus and the officer

22 asked him, "What are you doing?" and he said, "I saw

23 the commander and I wanted to talk to him." And he

24 asked him what ethnic group he was and what his name

25 was. He said Murselovic. Then again he cursed his

Page 1576

1 mother and he said he would kill us all and that we

2 should get on the bus and lie down.

3 Q. Murselovic, what was his ethnic group?

4 A. He was a Muslim.

5 Q. Now, after you went to the SUP, where did you

6 go from there?

7 A. We went to Tomasica.

8 Q. And from Tomasica, where did you go?

9 A. Omarska.

10 Q. Now, what time of the day, if you remember,

11 did you arrive at Omarska?

12 A. Around 4.00 or 5.00, or maybe 6.00, 5.00 or

13 6.00.

14 Q. The people that were on your bus with you,

15 the other people that had been arrested and put on your

16 bus, did you recognise any of those people?

17 A. (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. Now, the people that you recognised, what was

20 their ethnic group?

21 A. Muslim.

22 Q. When you arrived at Omarska camp, where did

23 the bus stop?

24 A. At the pista.

25 Q. What happened then, after your bus stopped on

Page 1577

1 the pista?

2 A. We got off the bus and we stood in front of

3 the building that used to be a restaurant. We had to

4 put our hands against the wall. We were searched and

5 beaten.

6 Q. Now, these people that searched you and beat

7 you after you got off the bus, how often after that, if

8 ever, did you see any of those people in Omarska camp?

9 A. I would see them but I could no longer

10 remember those people anymore.

11 Q. Now, after you were searched and you were

12 beaten, then where did you go?

13 A. We entered a large hall, a large premise, and

14 we were there. We were in that hall until the 6th or

15 7th of August, or the 6th, I think it was.

16 Q. When you refer to a hall, in what building

17 are you talking about the hall?

18 A. Where the restaurant was.

19 Q. This hall that you were in, did it come to be

20 known by a particular name or by a particular

21 reference?

22 A. Well, they called it Mujo's room.

23 Q. Now, you indicated that you were held in

24 Mujo's room until approximately the 6th of August.

25 While you were held in Mujo's room, were you in Mujo's

Page 1578

1 room 24 hours a day, or were you also in other areas?

2 A. I was also in other areas; at the pista, in

3 the "white house", in the garage.

4 Q. Now, if we take those in turn, when you were

5 in the "white house", how --

6 A. Restaurant.

7 Q. When you were in the "white house", how long

8 were you in the "white house"?

9 A. I was there for three days.

10 Q. You said you were on the pista. How long

11 were you on the pista?

12 A. I was on the pista for some 10 or 12 days.

13 We were coming and going.

14 Q. Coming and going from where?

15 A. From Mujo's room to the pista.

16 Q. You also mentioned being in a place you

17 called the garage. Now, in what building was that

18 garage located?

19 A. Where the restaurant is.

20 Q. How long were you in the garage?

21 A. Three days.

22 Q. While you were in Omarska camp, were you ever

23 interrogated?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where were you interrogated?

Page 1579

1 A. Upstairs, on the floor, on the first floor of

2 the restaurant building.

3 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time if I

4 could ask that the witness approach the model and point

5 to the various areas he has described.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, but

7 Mr. President, to do so we must go into closed session

8 because of image distortion.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're

10 going into closed session now.

11 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I can forego that

12 with this witness.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

14 very much, Madam Hollis, because going into closed

15 session is always an exception to the public character

16 of the hearings. Perhaps the witness could give a

17 detailed description; that will take a little more

18 time, but we will be respecting the principle of a

19 public hearing. Thank you, Ms. Hollis.

20 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness AJ, when you talk about this room or

22 this area you called the garage, as you are seated and

23 you look at the building directly ahead of you, to your

24 right, not the long building but the smaller red

25 building, how do you refer to that building? What

Page 1580

1 building is that?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

4 Madam Hollis. Couldn't we use this exhibit on the

5 ELMO, perhaps?

6 MS. HOLLIS: Once he identifies the building,

7 yes, Your Honour, I believe we could.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

9 very much. Yes.

10 MS. HOLLIS:

11 Q. So as you are looking to the smaller red

12 building on your right, what is that building?

13 A. The first black door on the right-hand side,

14 that is the garage.

15 Q. What do you call the building that you are

16 referring to here? What building is that?

17 A. The restaurant. The restaurant.

18 Q. So as you look at that building, there is a

19 black door on the right, and that's the door you're

20 referring to?

21 A. The garage.

22 Q. And that's on the very corner of the

23 building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, when did you leave Omarska

Page 1581

1 camp?

2 A. On the 6th of August.

3 Q. During the time that you were in Omarska

4 camp, did you recognise any camp personnel as people

5 you had known before the camp?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. Could you tell the Court the names or

8 nicknames of some of the people that you recognised.

9 A. Well, I recognised Krkan, Kvocka, Prcac --

10 Kvocka, Prcac. I can't remember now.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. I know them all, because all of them had

13 their haircuts in my place, shaved, had drinks and had

14 coffee, and they all know me well too.

15 Q. Now, let's take those, if we can, in order.

16 You mentioned that before the camp you knew a person

17 you called Krkan. Now, to your knowledge, is that a

18 proper name, "Krkan"?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you know Krkan's --

21 A. Mladjo Radic.

22 Q. Before going to the camp, how long would you

23 say you had known him?

24 A. I had known him some 15 years, 10 or 15 years

25 at least.

Page 1582

1 Q. You also mentioned a person you called

2 Kvocka. Prior to you going to the camp, how long had

3 you known him?

4 A. For a long time as well, because I had this

5 shop for a long time, and I would see them on the road,

6 in MUP. I was quite free, I moved around freely, so we

7 knew each other.

8 Q. And Kvocka, was Kvocka married?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of his wife?

11 A. Muslim.

12 Q. Did you know his wife's father's last name?

13 A. Crnalic.

14 Q. Now, you also mentioned Prcac. How long had

15 you known Prcac before you were in the camp?

16 A. Also for a long time. A long time. About

17 15, or maybe 20 years, or 10. Between 10 and 20.

18 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions

19 about each one of these individuals.

20 As to Krkan, while you were in Omarska,

21 during what period of time did you see him in the camp?

22 A. I would see him sometimes every day, every

23 other day. It depended on when I went out and so on.

24 Q. During what time period? You went to the

25 camp on the 30th of May; you indicated you left the

Page 1583

1 camp in early August. During that time, was there a

2 particular time period that you saw him?

3 A. Perhaps two or three days would go by for me

4 not to see him. Maybe five.

5 Q. When you saw Krkan, what would Krkan be

6 doing?

7 A. Standing, walking.

8 Q. Where did you see him in the camp?

9 A. I would see him in front of the building, of

10 the restaurant, behind the restaurant. There wasn't a

11 fixed position.

12 Q. Did you ever see him enter any of the

13 buildings in the camp?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, when you saw him, what weapons, if any,

16 would he have?

17 A. They had Kalashnikovs and that sort of thing,

18 short weapons.

19 Q. Witness AJ, I would specifically like to ask

20 about Krkan. If you remember the times you saw Krkan,

21 what kinds of weapons, if any, would he have?

22 A. A Kalashnikov. I don't know how they called

23 it.

24 Q. Now, for Kvocka, during what period of time

25 did you see Kvocka in the camp?

Page 1584

1 A. Maybe some 20 days to one month.

2 Q. During this 20 days to one month that you saw

3 him in the camp, how often would you see him?

4 A. We would sometimes see him every day, every

5 other day, every third day. It depended.

6 Q. When you saw him, what would he be doing?

7 A. Walking around, around the compound.

8 Q. When you say "around the compound," what

9 areas of the camp are you talking about?

10 A. Around the pista. He had an office inside.

11 Q. He had an office inside what building?

12 A. The restaurant.

13 Q. During the time you saw him, what weapons, if

14 any, did he have?

15 A. He had a rifle, a pump-action gun.

16 Q. Now, regarding Prcac, during what period of

17 time did you see him in Omarska camp?

18 A. Well, he may have come after some 20 days or

19 a month; that is, after I had been there for that

20 long.

21 Q. After Prcac came to the camp, how often did

22 you see him in the camp?

23 A. I would see him like that the same, once a

24 day, sometimes twice, three times. Once I even talked

25 to him. It depended on where I was.

Page 1585

1 Q. And where was it in the camp that you would

2 see him?

3 A. In front of the building.

4 Q. Which building?

5 A. The restaurant building. On this side. The

6 middle black door, the black door in the middle.

7 Q. Now, when you speak about this side, are you

8 talking about the portion of the restaurant building

9 that is facing toward you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The portion that is furthest away from the

12 Judges?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when you talk about the black door in the

15 middle, are you talking about a black door in the

16 middle of this back part of the building?

17 A. In the middle. In the middle. In front of

18 the pista here and there.

19 Q. Now, when you say "here and there", what

20 other areas, other than the one you have just

21 identified, what other areas did you see Prcac?

22 A. Between the hangar and the main entrance, the

23 hangar on the left and the main entrance, because I was

24 also on the pista.

25 Q. So that area between the hangar and the

Page 1586

1 restaurant building you're referring to as the pista?

2 A. Yeah. Yes.

3 Q. On those occasions when you saw Prcac, what

4 would he be doing?

5 A. I don't know what his job was, nor what he

6 was doing. He walked around. He went in and out.

7 What he did, what duties he had.

8 Q. What building or buildings did you see him go

9 into and out of?

10 A. Well, mostly through the main entrance of the

11 building.

12 Q. Of what building?

13 A. This one on the right-hand side.

14 Q. And that is, please --

15 A. Restaurant, the restaurant.

16 Q. Was that the only building you saw him go

17 into and out of?

18 A. That is all I saw, yes.

19 Q. The times that you saw Prcac, what weapons,

20 if any, did he have?

21 A. Don't know.

22 Q. Does that mean you didn't --

23 A. I can't remember.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, this might be a

Page 1587

1 convenient place to break the examination.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Madam Hollis. Yes, we agree that this is a good time

4 for the break or rather for us to adjourn for today.

5 Witness, you're going to come back tomorrow,

6 tomorrow at 9.30 -- no, no, I'm sorry. The working

7 rhythm is such that one forgets that we are entitled to

8 a weekend after all.

9 So in fact, it's Monday.

10 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we're available

11 tomorrow.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Maybe we

13 can organise it if the Defence feels like it. We have

14 the witness. I will be here. We can talk about it for

15 a next time.

16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We're ready

17 too.

18 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, I think we are

19 simply attempting to say that we are very flexible to

20 assist you in expediting the case.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you

22 repeat?

23 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. I think we

24 were just saying we would be happy to help in

25 expediting the case.

Page 1588

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are

2 risking the possibility of the Chamber accepting.

3 MS. HOLLIS: We encourage that, Your Honour.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think

6 there is a lot of people who need the weekend and I

7 think we need it too. So we can have a rest for the

8 weekend. And perhaps speed up things a little more

9 during the week, not to waste time during working

10 hours, have a good rest so as to gain in speed when we

11 come back. That way, you will not be running the risk,

12 but don't repeat yourself too often because we could

13 reorganise ourselves.

14 Anyway, have a good weekend, everyone.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

16 at 2.35 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday

17 the 8th day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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