1 Friday, 19 May 2000
2 [Private session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.43 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
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1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that
3 we're already in public session.
4 You may continue, Mr. Keegan.
5 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. And what happened on that day, the 24th of
7 May? How did the attack start?
8 A. Well, quite simply, the shelling of Kozarac
10 Q. And what area of Kozarac were you in at the
12 A. (redacted)
13 (redacted) because I was off duty that day
14 Q. And can you describe what the attack was
15 like, what that was like when the shelling started?
16 A. Strictly speaking, in Rajkovici you couldn't
17 see anything really, except you could hear it. You
18 could hear explosions, shells exploding. Because
19 Rajkovici is part of the surrounding hillside, so you
20 couldn't really see the attack on Kozarac itself or
21 some targets that were hit.
22 Q. Did you go out to an area to try and observe
23 some of the shelling yourself?
24 A. Yes. I was at a place where you could see
25 from the Kotlovaca area and the hill called Denovica
1 [phoen], where our fields are, and I was in that area
2 and I was able to see a settlement towards Kozarac, and
3 that is what we called Dera.
4 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness be provided
5 what's been marked as Exhibit 3/88A, B, and C, three
6 photos of the house.
7 Q. Witness B, could you look at those three
8 photos, please, and indicate whether or not you
9 recognise them.
10 A. Yes, I recognise them. (redacted)
12 Q. And the other two photos?
13 A. My house before the war and my house after
14 the war, when it was destroyed.
15 MR. KEEGAN: Could the first photo be put on
16 the ELMO, please.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps we
18 should switch the ELMO on, Mr. Usher. We're not
19 getting any picture over. Yes, we have it now. Thank
21 MR. KEEGAN: I recognise that the glare
22 appears to be pretty bad on that. I don't know if we
23 can adjust the mirror angle or something. I think it
24 will be generally sufficient, because everyone has
25 copies of the actual photo.
1 Q. Witness B, could you point to the area on the
2 hill where you said that you were and from which you
3 could observe the shelling?
4 A. Up here [indicates].
5 Q. Thank you. And from that location, you
6 indicated that you could see to the hamlet in the area
7 of Dera; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. It's the road towards Kozarac, and the
9 houses along that road.
10 Q. When you were on the hill looking towards
11 Dera, could you tell what type of structures were being
12 targeted by the shelling, what was being hit?
13 A. They were privately owned houses.
14 Q. Did you know the people who lived in those
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what was the ethnic group of those
19 A. Muslims.
20 Q. During the time that you were observing the
21 shells hitting that village, did you observe any fire
22 coming from the village, or return fire from the
24 A. No.
25 Q. What did the people who lived in your area do
1 during the shelling?
2 A. They came to two shelters. One of those
3 shelters was underneath the veranda of my own house and
4 the other one was opposite the road at my uncle's place
5 in the cellar there.
6 Q. And when you referred to shelters, are you
7 referring to cellars under the house?
8 A. Yes, cellars underneath the house.
9 Q. At that time were there any armed soldiers or
10 was there any fighting or return fire coming from your
12 A. No.
13 Q. What happened the following day?
14 A. The next day we were already informed that as
15 a group, and in a column, under a white flag or a white
16 sheet, we needed to go towards Kozarac and abandon
17 their homes, which they did.
18 Q. And how were you informed? How did you
19 receive those instructions?
20 A. There were people who were listening to the
21 news on a transistor radio, or a small radio which
22 worked on batteries. And then they passed on this news
23 that there would be no shelling, that there would be no
24 problems, that people should move peacefully and in an
25 orderly fashion.
1 Q. Were these instructions broadcast over the
2 civilian radio?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did your family follow those instructions?
5 A. We didn't have a transistor radio.
6 Q. I meant once you were advised by your
7 neighbours, did you follow the instructions? Did you
8 get in a column and move down towards Kozarac?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. About how many people were in your group, do
11 you recall?
12 A. Between 50 and 100. I don't know exactly. I
13 didn't really pay attention.
14 Q. As your group was moving down towards
15 Kozarac, what did you see along the way?
16 A. As we were leaving my village, there was a
17 pool of blood on the road where they said that a man
18 had been killed. Then as we entered Kozarac itself,
19 near the city mosque, there were also two or three
20 pools of blood, not really pools but blots, and they
21 said that a column of inhabitants from Brdjani had been
22 shelled there.
23 Q. And what about the homes and buildings along
24 the way? What state were they in?
25 A. They were destroyed. Some were still
1 burning. The smoke was coming out, with just the
2 outside charred walls standing. It was a terrible
4 Q. Did you know the people who lived in those
5 homes that you saw along the way that were destroyed?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what ethnic group were those people?
8 A. Muslims.
9 Q. Did you see any soldiers, any Serbian forces,
10 along the way as you went from the area where you lived
11 down towards Kozarac?
12 A. No.
13 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness be provided
14 with Exhibit 376, please. That's the map.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,
16 I think it is Exhibit 3/76. I see on the transcript
17 "Exhibit 376."
18 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm told I
19 may have given the wrong number. I'm looking for the
20 map of the Prijedor area.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Is it 3/77?
22 MR. KEEGAN: Could be. No. It's a map about
23 this big of the Prijedor area. 1/26. I have a copy.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 3/76.
25 MR. KEEGAN: I was right about that. Sorry.
1 Exhibit 1/26. It was marked incorrectly. I apologise,
2 Your Honour. We need the top half of the map, please.
3 Q. Witness B, could you please locate on the map
4 the area in which your village is? No, no. You can
5 remain seated. Just point, please.
6 Q. What happened when the column that you were
7 in reached Kozarac?
8 A. That is where we had the first encounter with
9 the military. That is where they were waiting for us.
10 Q. And when you say you had an encounter with
11 the military, they were waiting for you, can you
12 describe that, please?
13 A. Those soldiers were stationed in a building
14 where the TO of the Kozarac local community used to be
15 housed. A flag was hoisted, the three-colour flag.
16 Nothing else. We had no problems at all. They just
17 let us pass further down towards the elementary school,
18 where we waited as the other columns from the
19 surroundings of Kozarac arrived.
20 Q. What happened then while you were waiting at
21 the elementary school?
22 A. Not in the elementary school, in front of it,
23 on the road. We waited to see where people would be
24 going, because they hadn't told us that we would be
25 going in the direction of Trnopolje. After a few hours
1 of waiting, we headed towards the crossroads of
2 Trnopolje. At that spot, the men were separated from
3 the women and children, and their column went towards
4 Sucici, whereas the women and children stayed behind
6 Q. What happened to you at that time?
7 A. The military police were there, and they
8 separated me and two other members of the TO of the
9 Kozarac local community. They put us in a military
10 vehicle, the so-called Pynzgauer and took us to
11 Koncari. They asked about our personal data.
12 Then from there we went on to the Prijedor
13 barracks, probably for a checkup, to see who we were
14 and what we had been doing. Then after a brief stay in
15 the barracks, we were returned to the military police
16 checkpoint at Kozarusa, where the commander of the
17 military police was a certain Jovic.
18 After our personal data were taken down once
19 again, we heard an announcement of a radio station
20 where somebody was intervening. He said "by
21 civilians." So they didn't question us any longer but
22 took us back in the same military vehicle to Keraterm,
23 but the drivers who were taking us there made certain
24 provocations. They threatened me, saying what they did
25 to women, that they first have a physical abuse, and
1 after that they kill them. I just said, "Don't talk to
2 me like that. You don't know who I am."
3 I reached Keraterm. I entered the hall.
4 Q. First, when the soldier in the vehicle said
5 to you -- you referred to it, saying what they do to
6 women, that they have a physical abuse. Could you
7 please describe for the Judges; what term did he
8 actually use?
9 A. I apologise, but I have to say the same
10 words. "What we do with women like you is," and I
11 apologise again, "we first fuck them and then we kill
12 them so that there should be no witnesses." I don't
13 know the driver.
14 Q. Witness B, during all of this time, from the
15 time that you were picked up in the military police
16 vehicle and you went to these various military
17 stations, what, if any, calls did you hear on the
18 military radios about ongoing fighting or resistance,
19 military resistance, in the Kozarac area?
20 A. No.
21 Q. What, if any, signs from the Serbian forces
22 did you see to indicate that there were ongoing battles
23 or resistance? In other words, how were the soldiers
25 A. It was quiet. At the time there was no
1 shelling or anything. They were a bit tipsy, all of
2 them, at the checkpoint. They behaved in a rather -- I
3 don't know how to put it -- an inappropriate manner for
4 a soldier, especially when on duty.
5 Q. Were the soldiers acting as if they were in
6 combat operations; that is, were they moving tactically
7 or were they acting as if they were simply in charge of
8 the area?
9 A. They behaved as if they were in charge, as
10 if -- they didn't have any tactical or military
11 activities. They behaved as if they were at home.
12 Q. Witness B, what were you wearing on that day
13 when you were arrested?
14 A. Can I show you?
15 Q. Yes, please.
16 A. This same top in which I was arrested, taken
17 away, and which I wore throughout my period in the
18 camps. And unfortunately, the bottom part, I gave it
19 to a friend of mine who went to Manjaca when the
20 Omarska camp was disbanded.
21 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness please be
22 provided photographs that have been marked, previously
23 been marked, as Exhibits 3/27 and 3/34. Show those to
24 the witness, please.
25 Q. Witness B, do you recognise those
2 A. Yes. It is Keraterm.
3 Q. Now, when you say "Keraterm," do you mean by
4 that the Keraterm camp?
5 A. Yes. Yes, the buildings we were brought to
6 and where we were for the first day in Keraterm, the
8 Q. Could you please put first the photo that
9 shows the area of the building that you were first
10 taken to onto the ELMO so that she could point it out
11 for the Judges. Could you please point to the area of
12 the camp where you were first taken.
13 A. This is the building, and this is the
14 entrance [indicates]. I went in through this doorway
15 and I waited downstairs in the hall.
16 Q. Was that a reception area for the -- what
17 used to be the factory, Keraterm?
18 A. Yes. It was the Keraterm factory. It was a
19 newly built facility of Keraterm.
20 Q. And when you first arrived at the camp, were
21 there any prisoners on the area outside of the
23 A. No.
24 Q. And what happened to you once you were inside
25 the reception area of the building?
1 A. When I entered, somebody came up. I don't
2 know his name. I would be able to recognise him if I
3 saw him. A shortish man, with greyish hair. And he
4 went in front of two other members of the TO. He
5 started with his provocations. He was staring at us,
6 walking around us. "We need little birds like that.
7 You didn't need to do that. Why did you have to do all
8 that?" That kind of thing. Provocative questions and
9 behaviour. It didn't really affect me much. Each time
10 I looked him in the eye, he had to bend his head down,
11 so he just couldn't provoke me. After that I was
12 called in upstairs to one of these offices.
13 Q. And what happened --
14 A. -- and there were three interrogators sitting
15 there. One was asking the questions, another one was
16 taking things down, and a third was listening.
17 Q. Now, did you recognise any of these
19 A. I didn't know them from before, but later I
20 learnt that among them was Drago Meakic.
21 Q. Where did you later learn his identity?
22 A. I learnt it in Omarska.
23 Q. Did you see Drago Meakic later in Omarska?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. What type of -- sorry. Please finish.
1 A. He came on a visit, but I would not see him
2 there on a daily basis. I don't remember, no.
3 Q. What type of uniform were the interrogators
5 A. Mostly they wore camouflage uniforms.
6 Q. And when you say "camouflage uniforms," what
7 colour camouflage?
8 A. They were in different shades. They were not
9 the same. Some were in green tones, others were in
10 blue. So they were not all identical.
11 Q. Did any of the interrogators tell you who
12 they worked for; that is, were they police, were they
13 military, or some other organisation?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did they tell you why you had been arrested?
16 A. No. I still keep wondering why.
17 Q. What type of questions were you asked?
18 A. I don't remember the questions, except that
19 they said I should have been in their ranks -- I don't
20 understand that -- that I should have been on their
21 side. Which side is that, and why was I with the
22 Muslims? It is a nation of the former Yugoslavia, so I
23 can't understand that. And that that nation was
24 against the Serbs, and again I don't know why.
25 Q. Did they tell you what was going to happen to
1 the Muslims?
2 A. They should all be killed.
3 Q. Were you physically mistreated in any way
4 during the interrogation?
5 A. No, not in Prijedor; in Keraterm.
6 Q. Were they taking notes, preparing notes,
7 during this interrogation?
8 A. Yes. Yes. They were writing things down.
9 Q. Were you allowed to read the notes or were
10 you shown the notes after the interrogation?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you asked to sign a statement?
13 A. No.
14 Q. When the interrogation was concluded, where
15 were you taken?
16 A. They took me to one of the premises of the
17 warehouse in Keraterm. I think it was number 3.
18 Q. Could you please place that photograph on the
19 ELMO and point to the area for the Judges.
20 A. It is right here, or one of these, anyway.
21 One of these premises [indicates]. There are several
22 entrances, and I was put in one of them.
23 Q. And were there other prisoners already in
24 that room?
25 A. Yes, there were. It was quite full already.
1 They were all men, mostly from Kozarac, among those I
3 Q. And of those you knew, what was their ethnic
5 A. They were Muslims, and a couple of Catholics.
6 Q. Were you the only woman in the room?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During the time that you were in the Keraterm
9 camp, did you see any of the Serbian forces or
10 authorities who you later saw also in the Omarska camp?
11 A. Yes. It was Drago Radakovic, and I noticed,
12 passing, somebody I recognised there as well, and that
13 is Drago Prcac.
14 Q. And where did you see Drago Prcac while you
15 were in Keraterm?
16 A. He just passed by me up the stairs.
17 Q. Were there any other women in the Keraterm
18 camp during the time that you were held there?
19 A. While I was in that room, I didn't know of a
20 single other woman. In the evening, when they told me
21 to go on, that I couldn't stay there with those men,
22 that I should go elsewhere, I came to the same building
23 again; that is to say, I went into the hall again, and
24 there was a woman waiting there. I didn't know her. I
25 didn't know who she was. But she was just waiting
1 there like me.
2 Q. And were you taken out of the Keraterm camp
3 that night?
4 A. Yes. They took me to the police station in
6 Q. And the police station in Prijedor, is that
7 commonly referred to as the SUP?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you learn the name of the -- did the
10 other woman who you saw in the hall waiting, did she go
11 to the police station with you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did you learn her name?
14 A. Velida Makmuljin.
15 Q. And do you know where she was from?
16 A. From Kozarac.
17 Q. What happened once you arrived at the police
18 station in Prijedor?
19 A. I was again searched to see whether I had
20 anything on me. The person who searched me -- that is
21 to say, I was forced to take my clothes off and remain
22 in my underclothes so that they could check to see
23 whether I had any weapons on me.
24 Q. Who was the person who conducted the search?
25 A. It was a woman. And her name was Miroslava
2 Q. Were you interrogated at the police station
3 in Prijedor?
4 A. No. We were just transferred later on to a
5 separate room where we were supposed to spend the
6 night, and that was the prison.
7 Q. Were you placed in a cell alone, the two
8 women, or were there others in the cell as well?
9 A. Just the two of us.
10 Q. What was the condition of the cell?
11 A. Well, the word "cell" itself speaks for
12 itself. It stank of urine, it was dark, it was
13 stuffy. There were no proper windows, just like a sort
14 of iron bar, and you couldn't get any light through
15 that aperture at all.
16 Q. Were you given any food or water that
18 A. No water, but I think we got a tin of some
19 kind by way of food. I don't think we ate it, but we
20 did not get any water, no.
21 Q. Were you physically mistreated in anyway
22 while you were in the police station or in the cell?
23 A. No, we were not mistreated, but we heard
24 different comments coming from outside. And it wasn't
25 an easy thing. We heard them saying that we ought to
1 be raped and what they were going to do to us, but none
2 of that was done. They were just provocations, verbal
4 Q. What happened the next day?
5 A. The next day they took us out, and one of the
6 policemen, the guards, took us up to the restaurant
7 where we had lunch. We were given a portion of beans.
8 We waited there to see where we were going to be taken
9 after that.
10 Q. And where were you taken after that?
11 A. After that, we went downstairs to the yard,
12 the courtyard of the SUP building, where a police car
13 was waiting for us, and I can say that it was a Black
14 Marija sort of thing.
15 And the driver, one of the policemen who was
16 in charge there, he put us and three men inside and
17 took us over Gomjenica, Tomasica, Grudica, across the
18 hill to Omarska.
19 Q. What happened once you arrived in Omarska?
20 A. When we reached Omarska, we were searched
21 again in the same way, that is to say, a little
22 differently. We stood up against a wall and had to
23 raise our hands up with three fingers pressing against
24 the wall, and we had to stand astride so that they
25 could feel us up our legs to see if we had any weapons,
1 that kind of thing.
2 Q. Who was present from the camp staff when you
3 arrived at the Omarska camp?
4 A. There was Zeljko Meakic, and at that
5 particular moment, some people were coming out of the
6 building; that is to say, they were the interrogators.
7 I recognised Dragan Radakovic as being one of them.
8 Q. Now, was anything said specifically to you
9 and Velida Mahmuljin when you arrived at the camp?
10 A. I don't know whether it was a surprise for
11 them to see women arriving, but I just heard them say,
12 "What are we going to do with these two whores? Why
13 are they here? We ought to kill them." Something
14 along those lines.
15 Q. Do you know who said that?
16 A. I think it was Zeljko, Zeljko's expression.
17 Q. And Zeljko's last name?
18 A. Meakic, Zeljko Meakic.
19 Q. Did you later learn what -- what did they do
20 with you after you arrived at Omarska camp, you and
22 A. Well, we waited downstairs again for a time
23 at the entrance to that administrative building, and
24 afterwards, we were taken off again in a Mercedes to
25 the police station in Omarska.
1 Q. Do you recall who accompanied you in the
2 Mercedes to the Omarska police station?
3 A. There was the driver, and Zeljko Meakic was
4 with us.
5 Q. What happened once you were at the Omarska
6 police station?
7 A. Zeljko took our particulars down there. We
8 said who we were and everything else, and he wrote that
9 down in the black book.
10 Q. What type of questions did he ask you?
11 A. He asked what our names were, our date of
12 birth, where we lived, what nationalist party we
13 belonged to, and why we were there.
14 Q. Were you physically maltreated in any way
15 during the interrogation?
16 A. No.
17 Q. To your knowledge, was Velida physically
18 maltreated during her interrogation?
19 A. In Omarska, at the police station, no, she
21 Q. Were you ever informed, while you were at the
22 Omarska police station, why you had been arrested?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Where did you spend that night?
25 A. In the cell in the prison. Zeljko asked
1 whether we would like to stay in one of those -- in one
2 of their offices or would we like a separate room, but
3 I, for one, didn't know what "a separate room" meant
4 and what it referred to, and Velida didn't either. He
5 said "a separate room." So once again we were
6 transferred to the prison and that cell there.
7 Q. And that cell was in the Omarska police
8 station itself?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you receive any food or water that
12 A. I don't remember. No.
13 Q. Were you physically maltreated during the
15 A. No.
16 Q. And what happened the next morning?
17 A. The next morning, when they opened the cell
18 door, it was sunny. It was a fine day. We stepped out
19 of the darkness, and I found it hard to see because the
20 glare of the sun was in my eyes. Then one of them,
21 whether he was a soldier, a policeman, or someone like
22 that, he hit me with his rifle butt here [indicates],
23 and Zeljko reacted and said, "Don't beat her," and
24 cursed them, swore at them. He said, "Take them into
25 the car." We went into the same Mercedes and went off
1 to the camp again.
2 Q. What happened on your return to the Omarska
4 A. We waited there at the entrance again, in a
5 room where there was some lockers for clothing. That's
6 where we waited to be interrogated or whatever. I
7 don't really know.
8 Q. Were you taken for interrogation at that
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was Velida taken for interrogation?
12 A. Velida was, yes.
13 Q. When Velida came back from interrogation,
14 what did you notice?
15 A. I noticed that she was frightened. She had
16 signs of physical abuse; that is to say, she had a
17 bruise on her forehead which she skilfully hid with a
18 lock of hair. She was red all down here in the lower
19 part of her face. What happened to her, I don't know.
20 When I saw her I said, "What happened to you?" She
21 just looked at me and started crying and didn't say
22 anything, which means she was physically abused.
23 Q. During those first few days that you were in
24 Omarska, where were you held?
25 A. We were in one of the offices, one of the
1 rooms on the first floor of the administration
3 Q. Did you spend both day and night in that room
4 on the first floor or were you moved somewhere else
5 during the day?
6 A. No. At night we were in that room, but in
7 the morning, at 7.00, we had to go downstairs to the
8 restaurant, the catering -- the canteen, and we would
9 have a table and chairs. So when you go inside the
10 restaurant, this was to the left.
11 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honours, if I could beg
12 your indulgence. I intend to have the witness only
13 refer to all the areas that are relevant to her
14 testimony on the model at one time, because it will
15 have to be in closed session so that she can get up and
16 move around. So she will fully describe these areas
17 but later in the testimony.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think
19 that we'll have an easier solution, and that is to have
20 a longer pointer perhaps. Then the witness could use
21 that longer pointer and point from where she's
22 sitting. That would -- she wouldn't have to get up and
23 lose her protective measures.
24 So we're now going to go into private session
25 so that the witness can approach the model and point to
1 what she has to point to. Let's go into private
2 session then.
3 I beg your pardon, Mr. Keegan?
4 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I was actually
5 going to wait and do it near the end when she's
6 discussed all of the relevant areas and then she can
7 just do it all at once.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I
9 think that's a good idea, but perhaps we could prepare
10 this, because the registrar has lots of things at his
11 disposal. Perhaps we could get a longer pointer with
12 which the witness could point to the model, but I think
13 your suggestion is a good one, yes.
14 MR. KEEGAN: We'll check on the break if that
15 can be arranged.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're
17 continuing in public session. Thank you, Mr. Keegan.
18 Please go ahead.
19 MR. KEEGAN:
20 Q. Witness B, you described that you spent the
21 days, when you first arrived at the camp, in the
22 restaurant area.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At that time, could you see where other
25 prisoners in the camp were being held?
1 A. Not at the beginning, because they were taken
2 off straight away to other rooms where they were shut
3 up and they didn't go out of them, but I could just see
4 them coming to lunch in columns. But where they all
5 were, I was not able to see.
6 Q. How long were you in the camp before you
7 began to serve food to the prisoners?
8 A. Well, perhaps 15 to 20 days.
9 Q. And prior to that time, who served food to
10 the prisoners?
11 A. The food came ready-prepared from the
12 kitchens probably. They prepared the food. But the
13 meals would arrive already cooked.
14 Q. And for the first 10 to 15 days, who served
15 the meals?
16 A. There were three men who had the duty of
17 serving the meals.
18 Q. After that first period, once you began
19 serving meals to the prisoners, did you continue to
20 work in the restaurant the entire time that you were in
21 the camp.
22 A. Yes, except when there would be a visit of
23 some kind, towards the end when the journalists
24 arrived, and then the women didn't show themselves and
25 it was the men who served the meals again.
1 Q. You say the women didn't show themselves. By
2 that do you mean you voluntarily stayed in a room
4 A. No. We had to be elsewhere. We were not
5 able to -- they didn't allow us to show ourselves.
6 They didn't want people to know that women were there,
7 because they kept denying that there were any women at
8 all in Omarska.
9 Q. Do you know how the food was delivered to the
11 A. It would be brought in -- I don't know -- in
12 some kind of vehicle. It would arrive at about 9.00
13 and would be distributed until late in the afternoon,
14 3.00 or 4.00, 5.00 p.m. perhaps, depending.
15 Q. Was food brought for both the guards in the
16 camp and the prisoners?
17 A. It wasn't the same.
18 Q. What was the difference between the food for
19 the prisoners and the food for the guards?
20 A. Well, I had occasion to try that food too,
21 thanks to, once again I say, some good people among
22 them. There were some good people, and so on several
23 occasions us women received that other food. They
24 offered us some. They asked us whether we were hungry,
25 and they gave us this food, their food. And the food
1 that the prisoners were given, there was a drastic
2 difference between that food.
3 Q. Can you please describe what was the daily
4 meal for the prisoners.
5 A. At the beginning, the daily meal was far
6 better than it was later on, in the latter period, when
7 it was terrible. It was -- there was no salt in it, no
8 spices or anything like that. What can I say? I can
9 tell you that it was all without any salt at all in it,
10 so you can image the taste it had.
11 Q. During the first period, then, what was the
12 type of meal that a prisoner would get each day? What
13 did it consist of?
14 A. At the beginning there were beans. There
15 were enough beans. It was a consistent bean stew. And
16 there was rice, and they put some meat in as well. It
17 was a far better quality than it was towards the end.
18 And when I asked, "What's this you're giving us now,"
19 well, they said, "We haven't got enough to eat either,
20 and that's what we're giving you."
21 Q. Now, this first meal you're describing, you
22 say there were enough beans, it was a consistent bean
23 stew, and then you talk about rice and some meat. Were
24 those separate courses, or are they all in one soup or
1 A. It was separate. Each time they tried to
2 give us a different -- different things to eat, so it
3 was different food. It was on different occasions.
4 Q. So one day it would be bean -- soup with
5 beans in it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And on another day the soup would have rice
8 in it; is that what you're saying?
9 A. Yes. Or it would be cabbage or something
10 else like that.
11 Q. Did they also receive bread with this soup
12 each day?
13 A. Yes. At the beginning they would get a
14 quarter of a loaf, and afterwards an eighth of a loaf.
15 But for a very short period of time were we given this
16 quarter loaf.
17 Q. When you say "a very short period of time,"
18 how many days are you talking?
19 A. I can't answer that question. I don't know.
20 The conditions were such that you couldn't really take
21 note of all these details. It wasn't important for
22 us. We just kept thinking why we were there and how we
23 could get out, so we didn't pay attention to details of
24 that kind.
25 Q. Now, you say that the food then got worse.
1 How was it worse? What was it like?
2 A. Well, it was more rarefied, more liquidy, not
3 as many spices. They didn't put any salt into this to
4 give it taste. It was awful, and you could see the
5 effects of it on us prisoners.
6 Q. Was the food for the prisoners, that is, the
7 vegetables that were in the broth and the water, were
8 they always of fresh quality or were they spoiled
9 vegetables on occasion?
10 A. For the prisoners, well, very often the beans
11 would be sour already because of the hot weather, and
12 they would bring the same food back and distribute it
13 again, and the beans had gone off. And very often you
14 would sense this smell. And they gave this to people,
15 and people would get dysentery and have stomach
16 problems afterwards.
17 Q. Were prisoners given adequate time to eat
18 their meals?
19 A. No. It was a very short period of time that
20 we were given.
21 Q. Was there always enough food for all of the
23 A. No. Many of them -- no. Many of them would
24 remain hungry. There wasn't enough for them. Many of
25 them didn't even dare come to eat.
1 Q. Why wouldn't they dare come to eat?
2 A. Because of the beating in coming and leaving
3 that restaurant.
4 Q. Were the prisoners given anything to drink
5 with their meals?
6 A. They received water in the latter part.
7 Q. Now, you say when they received water in the
8 latter part, you mean they got cups or glasses of water
9 with their meal?
10 A. No. It was on the table. There were
11 pitchers of water on the table with plastic glasses, or
12 the water had already been poured into the glasses, or
13 they would pour the water from these pitchers
15 Q. When you say the latter period, what period
16 are you referring to?
17 A. Well, the last month or so.
18 Q. Is this after the journalist visited the
20 A. Prior to their visit and following their
22 Q. Now, what was the food like that the guards
23 received? You referred to it, but you didn't describe
25 A. Well, normal food, good quality food, caloric
1 food. It wasn't the same every day, but it was far,
2 far better compared to the other one.
3 Q. Did they receive meat in their meals?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Vegetables?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Potatoes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Bread?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were they given only soup every day, the
13 A. No.
14 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness please be
15 shown Exhibit 3/70, A through D. That's the four
16 photographs of the prisoners going to and coming from
18 Q. Witness B, can you please look at those four
19 photographs. Witness B, what do those four photographs
20 depict? What do they indicate?
21 A. The bringing in of the prisoners to lunch.
22 The way they took their lunch, left their plates, and
23 went out.
24 Q. Okay. This first photograph which you've
25 placed on the scene, does that indicate how the
1 prisoners would proceed into the canteen, the
2 restaurant, for their lunch?
3 A. Yes, that's precisely it.
4 Q. And is that the serving line we see in the
5 back of that photograph?
6 A. Yes, it is. Here you see it [indicates].
7 That's the serving line.
8 Q. And the next photograph.
9 A. The next photograph is when they took their
10 meals off the line and took their spoons, cutlery.
11 Q. And do you recognise anybody in that
13 A. Yes. I recognise Zoran Delic, one of those
14 who distributed the food. That's him there
16 Q. And did he supervise the food distribution
17 during the time that you were in the camp?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the next photograph.
20 A. The next photograph is when they would return
21 their empty plates. And the bread that they didn't
22 have time to eat, they held in their hands. And you
23 can see this on the photograph. They would take this
24 bread out with them and eat it later on. Where they
25 all were, I don't know. Some of them were on the
1 pista; others were in the garages, in the "white
2 house," and so on.
3 Q. The guard who's standing on the left of that
4 photograph as we look at it, what type of uniform is he
6 A. Yes, that's the uniform of an active-duty
8 Q. And the next photograph, please.
9 A. This is the way out of the restaurant. And
10 behind you can see the "green house" area, the glass
11 area [indicates], which is where some of the prisoners
12 were also positioned.
13 Q. Okay. Just for clarification's sake, we've
14 got different translations there of that term. That
15 area in the background, what was it called where the
16 prisoners -- you can see the prisoners sitting down?
17 A. "Green house."
18 THE INTERPRETER: Glassed-in area.
19 Interpreters note.
20 MR. KEEGAN: Okay. Thank you.
21 Your Honour, would that be a convenient
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
24 Mr. Keegan. This is a good moment for the pause. And
25 we're going to have a half-hour break.
1 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be
5 Mr. Keegan, you may continue.
6 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness B, how were the guards in the Omarska
8 camp organised?
9 A. They were organised in three shifts.
10 Q. And how often did the guard shifts change?
11 A. When I was able to register what was
12 happening, I noticed that the shifts changed every
13 12 hours.
14 Q. Was there anyone in charge of each of the
15 guard shifts?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who were the shift commanders?
18 A. Mladjo Radic, Milojica Kos, and Momir
20 Q. Did you know any of those three from before
21 the war?
22 A. Yes. I knew Mladjo Radic or, rather, Mladen
24 Q. What type of uniforms did the guards wear in
25 the camp?
1 A. There were various uniforms, camouflage, SMB,
2 olive green, or police uniforms.
3 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness please be
4 shown what's been previously marked as Exhibits 3/69A
5 and B, and what was admitted yesterday as Exhibit
7 Q. Witness B, can you look at all three of those
8 pictures, please. If you could place what is actually
9 the second picture in the stack that you have on the
10 monitor first.
11 Witness B, first of all, do you recognise the
12 person in that picture?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And who is that?
15 A. Mladen Radic.
16 Q. What type of uniform is he wearing in that
18 A. A police uniform, summer uniform.
19 Q. Did you ever observe Mladjo Radic wearing
20 that uniform during the time he was a guard shift
21 commander in the Omarska camp?
22 A. Yes. He wore it.
23 Q. Could you place the next photograph on the
24 ELMO, please.
25 The guards in that photograph, what uniform
1 are they wearing?
2 A. The first two are wearing police uniforms,
3 whereas this other one, I think he has camouflage
4 trousers on, as far as I can see.
5 Q. What type of shirt is that third individual
6 wearing, the one you described as wearing what you
7 think are camouflage pants?
8 A. It seems to me to be a white shirt.
9 Q. Would you place the third photograph on,
11 Witness B, first of all, do you recognise the
12 person in that photograph?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who is that?
15 A. Drazenko Predojevic.
16 Q. What position did he hold in the camp, if
18 A. The guard.
19 Q. Do you know whose shift he was on?
20 A. In Mladen Radic's shift.
21 Q. What type of uniform is Predojevic wearing in
22 that photograph?
23 A. His shirt is olive grey and the trousers are
25 Q. Do you recall seeing him wear such an outfit
1 in the camp when he was a guard there?
2 A. Yes. Yes, exactly so.
3 Q. Did you ever have any direct contact with
4 Drazenko Predojevic?
5 A. He would, during lunchtime, most frequently
6 be in the restaurant, in the dining-room.
7 Q. Earlier you described beatings which occurred
8 as prisoners came in to eat and when they left. Do you
9 recall ever seeing Drazenko Predojevic take part in
10 those beatings?
11 A. Frequently in the restaurant.
12 Q. To your knowledge, was he also involved in
13 other beatings in the camp?
14 A. Yes, whenever he was on duty. He was one of
15 those that I noticed in particular and of whom I could
16 say that he was one of the worst.
17 Q. Did he ever ask you to give him medical
18 treatment of any type?
19 A. Yes. I bandaged his hand here [indicates] in
20 the area of the wrist, or I would put a Band-Aid on a
21 finger he may have hurt.
22 Q. And how did he get those injuries?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Did he tell you how he got them?
25 A. No. He just said, "Come on. You're from the
1 medical corps. Show me what you can do and bandage my
3 Q. Who were the command staff at the Omarska
4 camp in the first period during which you were
6 A. Zeljko Meakic and, well, Miroslav Kvocka.
7 Q. Did you know either of those two men before
8 you were in the camp?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What position in the camp did Miroslav Kvocka
12 A. Judging by his behaviour with the guards and
13 the personnel, the guard personnel, at the very
14 beginning it was quite evident that the guards gathered
15 round him and then they would disperse to take up their
16 positions. And judging by those conversations that he
17 had with the guards, one could conclude that he had a
18 senior position in the camp, one of the senior
20 Q. Were you able to tell from the conduct of the
21 camp personnel that you observed, or conversations
22 which you overheard, whether he was in a position
23 superior to the guard shift commanders?
24 A. Yes. Several times I heard a guard
25 addressing him in passing as "chief" or "commander."
1 Everyone addressed him as a person who was responsible
2 for the command in the camp.
3 Q. How often did you see Miroslav Kvocka in the
5 A. I couldn't really say, but almost every day
6 during his stay there. At first I saw him quite often.
7 Q. Did Miroslav Kvocka carry a weapon of any
9 A. Yes. He was known by his pump-action rifle
10 and his black gloves with the fingers cut off, and that
11 is how I remember him.
12 Q. Do you recall what type of uniform, if any,
13 he wore?
14 A. Yes. He wore a camouflage uniform.
15 Q. Approximately how long do you recall seeing
16 Kvocka working in the Omarska camp?
17 A. A month, a month and a half. Not more than
18 that. I didn't see him after that.
19 Q. Were you able to tell from what you could
20 observe whether Miroslav Kvocka was in a position
21 superior to or below Zeljko Meakic?
22 A. I don't know that.
23 Q. From what you could observe with respect the
24 way the guards treated him, did they treat him in a
25 manner similar to Meakic or differently?
1 A. In the same way.
2 Q. After Kvocka left the camp, who worked with
3 Meakic in the command of the camp?
4 A. Drago Prcac came.
5 Q. What indications did you have that Drago
6 Prcac was a commander in the camp?
7 A. Well, by the behaviour of the personnel or
8 the guards, who treated him in the same way they did
9 Miroslav Kvocka. They were -- after talking to him,
10 they would quietly go to their guard posts, and that is
11 how I came to that conclusion.
12 Q. From what you could observe, did the guards
13 and the camp personnel treat him in the same way they
14 treated Zeljko Meakic or differently?
15 A. In the same way as towards Zeljko Meakic.
16 Q. Did you see Drago Prcac move around the camp
18 A. Yes. I would see him every time when he
19 would take up his duties. He would contact the
20 guards. But this was very briefly. Then he would go
21 back or go off somewhere. So he didn't spend a lot of
22 time among the guards. He would withdraw. Whether he
23 went to the offices where they were, or somewhere else,
24 I don't know.
25 Q. Would he carry anything with him when he
1 walked about the camp and spoke with the guards?
2 A. He had a notebook under his arm. What the
3 purpose of that notebook was, I don't know.
4 Q. Did you ever have an occasion to see Drago
5 Prcac speaking with the shift commanders?
6 A. Yes. That happened at the pista, within the
8 Q. Did you ever see them speaking upstairs on
9 the first floor of the administration building?
10 A. I had occasion to be, not often, but quite
11 frequently, in their office, to make coffee or to clean
12 the offices or something like that. But I wouldn't
13 hear any important conversations, because as soon as I
14 went in, the subject of the conversation would change,
15 so there was nothing of significance that I could
17 Q. What type of clothing or uniform did you
18 observe Drago Prcac wearing at the camp?
19 A. He would most frequently wear the summer
20 police uniform.
21 Q. And did you see him wear anything else other
22 than that?
23 A. Only a civilian shirt or something of that
25 Q. Do you remember the colour of the civilian
2 A. Usually it was -- well, white.
3 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Zeljko
4 Meakic about his position in the camp?
5 A. Yes. On one occasion -- it was towards the
6 end -- when I heard that they called him chief, or
7 commander, I asked him, "Are you the commander of the
8 camp here?" And he would say, "No. I am commander of
9 the security." And then he would stress that Drago
10 Prcac was the commander of the camp. He told me that.
11 Q. From the beginning of your stay in the
12 Omarska camp, did you observe prisoners arriving, being
13 brought to the camp, from the restaurant building where
14 you were during the day?
15 A. Yes. It was precisely where we were sitting,
16 and you could see this from the place we distributed
17 food, because the restaurant had large windows, and you
18 could see that. But the women would sometimes turn
19 their backs, and you couldn't always see.
20 But as I worked every day, almost every day
21 and distributed food, I did have a chance to see what
22 was being done with the prisoners who were brought by
23 buses there or by any other means of transport.
24 Usually it was a police car. But then I had the chance
25 of seeing what was being done to those people, how they
1 physically mistreated them.
2 Q. You mentioned when prisoners were brought via
3 police car. Did you also observe occasions when they
4 were brought in larger vehicles such as a van or a
6 A. Yes. They would come in larger groups. Then
7 they would come by bus. They would stand usually in
8 front of the garage or behind the kitchen, behind the
9 restaurant, and they would get out there. They would
10 be searched there. That would be the beginning of the
11 beatings, as far as we could hear. Then what one by
12 one, in a column, single file or whatever, they would
13 go into the different premises, into the "white house"
14 or wherever they were distributed. They would move on
15 from there.
16 Q. On those occasions that you observed the
17 arrival of prisoners, who would go out to meet the
18 prisoners as they arrived?
19 A. Well, first of all, one of those main ones on
20 duty that day in the camp, then the shift leader and
21 the guards who were present there, who were on duty
22 that day.
23 Q. In one of your earlier answers, you mentioned
24 that prisoners would be beaten after they got out of
25 the vehicles and were being searched.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Then you indicated they moved on to various
3 locations in the camp. Would anything happen to the
4 prisoners as they were being taken to those other
5 locations, that you could observe?
6 A. Well, that was precisely when they were taken
7 off in the direction of the "white house," where there
8 were -- where it was obvious that they had previously
9 been beaten. They had bruises and visible signs of
10 blows on their faces and so on.
11 When they would go off in the direction of
12 the "white house" one by one, they would be met there
13 by the guards where they would beat them.
14 Q. And would these beatings take place out in
15 front of the "white house" where you could observe
17 A. Yes. Yes, precisely so. In front of the
18 "white house." At the entrance of the "white house"
20 Q. Did you ever overhear the guards talking
21 about what they were doing to the prisoners when they
22 arrived at the camp?
23 A. I remember one particular person. When the
24 driver came and the president of the municipality, this
25 Music, when a person ran into the kitchen and said,
1 "We've got a good one here, a big fat one. We'll take
2 out our pleasure out on him." And at the time I said,
3 "Poor Idriz," not knowing that he would come up to me
4 and ask me, "Ah, you know him, do you?" He was from
5 Kozarac and my schoolmate from elementary school.
6 Q. In addition to that one specific prisoner
7 that you knew, did you overhear other similar
8 conversations on other occasions where the guards spoke
9 about what they were doing?
10 A. Well, there were other comments but there was
11 fear generally. You couldn't hear each and every
12 comment. There would be comments after every arrival,
13 especially the guards, although many of them were
14 quiet. Many of them didn't say anything. Some
15 individuals were even proud when they saw new arrivals,
16 seeing that they could beat them and so on, but it was
18 Q. Now, did you ever see any of the camp command
19 staff that you have talked about thus far present when
20 these new arrivals were beaten?
21 A. Well, I have already said that those who were
22 on duty that day were present.
23 Q. Do you recall occasions when Miroslav Kvocka
24 was present on the pista area when new arrivals were
25 beaten there?
1 A. I repeat again: All of them, at the time,
2 were outside when the new arrivals came, all of them
3 who were on duty that day, whether it was Kvocka or
4 Prcac, but that staff was outside, all of them.
5 Q. And what about the shift commanders? Did you
6 ever see Radic present when new arrivals were beaten on
7 the pista?
8 A. Well, he was present as well.
9 Q. And Milojica Kos?
10 A. Yes, depending on whether he was on duty when
11 the group was brought in.
12 Q. Now, did you ever see any of those men, whose
13 names have just been mentioned, beat any of the
14 detainees themselves, that is, beat them personally?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever see any of those men, whose
17 names we have mentioned, try to stop the beatings or to
18 intervene in any way?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, other than these beatings of the new
21 arrivals which you have talked about, were prisoners
22 beaten on all three of the guard shifts?
23 A. Yes, they were.
24 Q. Were prisoners in the Omarska camp beaten or
25 tortured every day?
1 A. During the interrogations they were. When it
2 was time for interrogation, then they were beaten.
3 Q. And at other times were there random beatings
4 of the prisoners in the camp?
5 A. I don't understand your question. I didn't
6 hear it properly.
7 Q. At times other than -- you've spoken now of
8 new arrivals and beatings when prisoners were going to
9 meals and beatings during interrogations. On occasions
10 other than those, in other words, you know, just other
11 parts of the day, were prisoners beaten?
12 A. Yes, when they arrived. That's when they
13 beat them. During their meals they beat them, and
14 during their interrogations they beat them, and during
15 the course of the night.
16 Q. Did you see the effects of these beatings on
17 the prisoners?
18 A. During the day you mean? Yes. But at night
19 I just heard it.
20 Q. Now, I'm speaking specifically about -- were
21 there any visible signs or marks or injuries that you
22 could see on the prisoners as a result of these
24 A. Yes. Yes, there were signs. For example, on
25 their backs. Their shirts would be torn and you could
1 see that the flesh had been torn. There were bruises
2 on their face, and the arch around the eye might being
3 fractured, or you could see the signs of a beating.
4 Q. Were all three guard shifts the same in the
5 way that they treated the prisoners?
6 A. No.
7 Q. In what way were they different?
8 A. Unfortunately, I have to say that in Mladen
9 Radic's shift there were most beatings going on. And
10 as far as I was able to notice, there were young men
11 who were quite simply proud of their duty and position
12 in the camp. Why, I don't know.
13 Q. When you say that they were "proud of their
14 position and duty in the camp," what do you mean? What
15 do you mean "proud"?
16 A. Well, they were -- they put themselves above
17 us. They had this kind of attitude of superiority,
18 arrogant, and pride as well.
19 Q. Can you give an example of what Radic's shift
20 was like?
21 A. His shift was in one -- a single
22 composition. It was formed of young men; well-built
23 young men; well-developed, strong young men; and as I
24 have already said, they were proud.
25 Q. Can you a give an example of an instance when
1 they mistreated prisoners or beat prisoners?
2 A. Well, usually it was when they came to lunch,
3 came in to lunch. When the new arrivals came as well.
4 Q. Do you recall one particular occasion when
5 the beatings at lunch were worse than usual?
6 A. It was one particular day when they beat them
7 so much, when the detainees -- when bread would fly out
8 of their hands. They had very little time to come in,
9 get their food, eat it, and go out, and all this would
10 be accompanied by blows. Everyone tried to hold on to
11 his eighth of a loaf of bread. If they were able to
12 put the bread in their pockets, they managed to save
13 the bread, but all the others carrying this bread, when
14 the blows fell, they would open their hands and the
15 bread would fall out of their hands. This was
16 collected up, and then it was said that these people
17 were on a strike, that they didn't want to eat.
18 So that was one of the worst days ever during
19 my entire stay in Omarska, and it really upset me
20 tremendously, and I'll never forget it. Why -- well,
21 they're not cattle; they were human beings -- what the
22 reason was. Well, I heard a day or two later that
23 there had been a conflict at Gradacac and that many
24 people had lost their lives there and that was the
25 reason why they were beating the people there.
1 Q. Witness B, if we can go back and ask a few
2 more questions about that incident. First, let's start
3 with this explanation you gave. You say that there was
4 a battle at Gradacac and that many people lost their
5 lives. Who lost their lives in that battle?
6 A. I think it was the people of Omarska, the
7 population of Omarska who were on the battlefront, and
8 that that was the main reason. Now, who they actually
9 were, well, I don't know them.
10 Q. But you were told a couple of days later that
11 the reason for the beating on that day was because
12 soldiers from Omarska had been killed at the front.
13 A. Yes. That was a discussion between some of
14 the guards, and I happened to overhear their
15 conversation in the kitchen while they were talking.
16 Q. Do you remember -- can you recall the date of
17 this incident?
18 A. (redacted)
21 Q. What was it about this particular incident,
22 the one you described earlier, that made it so much
23 worse than the beatings that you described that
24 occurred when prisoners were going to meals as a
25 routine? Why was this day so much worse?
1 A. Because they had to go in running, and when
2 they entered, they would receive blows at the
3 entrance. And they would go in with these injuries.
4 And one of them, in fact, couldn't even see out of his
5 eye, because blood was trickling down and the arch of
6 his eye had been fractured. And when others heard that
7 prisoners were being beaten, they didn't come in to
8 lunch at all, because they would rather go hungry than
9 receive blows. So that that particular day we had some
10 food left over, and later on that food -- actually,
11 that food was distributed again the following day, the
12 leftover food.
13 Q. You referred to bread flying out of
14 prisoners' hands. What do you mean by that?
15 A. Well, the bread they had, it flew out of
16 their hands, and the guards picked up the bread, the
17 pieces of bread, and took it away. And Zeljko Meakic
18 that evening called me up and -- how shall I put it? I
19 was taken up to their room. He asked me why those
20 people had gone on a hunger strike, why didn't they
21 want to eat? And I just said, "Zeljko, it was not a
22 strike of any kind. They were so angry today, they
23 were in such a rage, that -- they beat them so much
24 that -- and I can't understand that anybody could beat
25 anybody else so much. Why? That day they were in a
1 particular rage."
2 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Mladjo
3 Radic about that beating, the way the prisoners were
4 beaten that day?
5 A. Yes. When he came into the kitchen, I said,
6 "Why are these people being beaten? Why was that
7 done?" And I think he'll remember the sentence. He
8 said, "Oh, fuck them. Who could prevent them from
9 doing it? I can't do anything to stop them."
10 Q. Did he refer to the guards in any particular
11 way? Did he call them something?
12 A. Well, he said something like an unruly crowd,
13 something like that. It's a special word. It didn't
14 have any particular meaning, but like a band or
15 something like that.
16 Q. Now, when he said this to you, in your
17 opinion did you take it as if he was serious about how
18 he described them?
19 A. Well, according to the expression he used,
20 and his face, it wasn't anything serious. I
21 couldn't -- I didn't take him to be serious. He just
22 said it, like -- like a joke, in that sense.
23 Q. From what you saw during your time in the
24 camp, did you believe that Mladjo Radic did have the
25 authority to control the conduct of the guards on his
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. In your opinion, if he had wanted to, could
4 he have prevented beatings that day?
5 A. Well, if he has the duty of being a shift
6 leader, then I also think he has the authority to
7 prevent something from being done as well, or to make a
8 report of it to the command.
9 Q. Based on what you observed in the camp, if he
10 had given such an order, that is, not to beat the
11 prisoners, do you believe the guards on his shift would
12 have obeyed him?
13 A. I hope that most of them would, but not all
14 of them. Most of them would have listened to him.
15 Q. Did Mladjo Radic carry a weapon when he was
16 in the camp?
17 A. They all had weapons. He had an automatic
19 Q. Now, earlier you referred to interrogations.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How often were prisoners interrogated in the
23 A. Everyone was interrogated at least once.
24 Q. Were interrogations carried out on a daily
1 A. Yes. It was every day.
2 Q. Were you able to hear the interrogations?
3 A. Well, I couldn't hear the actual questions
4 asked by the interrogators, but I did hear the abuse,
5 the blows; quite simply, the cries and screams of the
6 people who went in for interrogation, and the general
7 noise, and shouting at the people who were being
9 Q. How often did you hear this abuse, the blows,
10 the cries and the screams of the people who went in?
11 How often would you hear that?
12 A. Well, you could hear that often, almost every
13 day during the interrogation sessions.
14 Q. Where would you be when you would hear this
16 A. I was in the restaurant.
17 Q. If someone was in one of the offices on the
18 first floor, in your opinion would they have heard this
19 noise as well?
20 A. Yes, because the insulation of the walls
21 wasn't such that you couldn't hear. It wasn't
23 Q. Did you ever see the prisoners when they came
24 down from interrogation?
25 A. I shall mention one of those examples. I
1 saw, for instance, when they brought down a man who had
2 been beaten, and they held him under his armpits and
3 his feet just dragged along the floor, along the
4 pista. And they would take him off in the direction of
5 the "white house," where he was taken over by two
6 prisoners, and that's where they took him.
7 Q. And what did that prisoner look like?
8 A. Well, I couldn't actually see him from the
9 front, what he looked like from face on; I just saw his
10 back and the state he was in when they took him out.
11 He was all beaten up. And they carried him out. He
12 couldn't walk himself.
13 Q. Did you ever have to go into the
14 interrogation rooms themselves?
15 A. Yes. We slept in two of those interrogation
17 Q. Did you ever have an occasion to have to
18 clean those interrogation rooms?
19 A. Only once. I went there with another woman.
20 The two of us were cleaning those two rooms to be able
21 to sleep in them afterwards.
22 Q. On other days, did other women have to clean
23 the rooms while you were working in the restaurant?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. On the occasion when you cleaned the rooms,
1 what did the room look like when you went in? What
2 condition was it in?
3 A. First of all, on the table, on the wooden
4 board, there were blots of blood. On the walls, which
5 was a brick wall, there would drops of blood. There
6 was blood on the floor as well. And behind the door I
7 found a broken pair of glasses with very thick lenses.
8 Who they belonged to, I don't know. And I found some
9 other objects, probably those they used during the
11 Q. Now, what were those objects that you found?
12 A. There was a whip made from a plaited strand.
13 Then there were metal bars. What they were used for, I
14 don't know. And on one of those metal bars there were
15 traces of blood.
16 Q. Just to clear up the transcript, the
17 translation issue: The whip that you found, was that
18 made from braided wood, strips of wood?
19 A. It was wood which had been cut up into -- I
20 don't know how to explain it -- into several strips and
21 then were braided together.
22 Q. Now, this metal bar with the traces of blood
23 on it, did you do anything with that metal bar?
24 A. I put all those objects that were on the
25 table into the metal cupboards for clothing. However,
1 one bar fell behind and I didn't pick it up. It stayed
2 there that night.
3 Q. And was there an incident the next day that
4 occurred because of that metal bar falling behind the
5 metal cabinet?
6 A. Yes. The question was which women had spent
7 the night there, and they had to be asked why it had
8 been removed. It was Dragan Radakovic who sent for
9 those women, two women. Jadranka Papes and Esma
10 Elezovic went up there, and upon their return, they
11 were afraid. Especially Jadranka was scared. She had
12 known Radakovic from before the war. And then we
13 asked, "Why so much fuss?" And then he said, "If the
14 same thing happened another time, we would be
15 transferred to one of the men's rooms. A message was
16 left for me to pass on to Zeljko, and I gave it to
17 Zeljko and he said to me, "Never mind. He's just
18 talking. Nothing will come of it."
19 Q. Earlier you referred to prisoners being
20 beaten at night. How do you know that?
21 A. I heard, or rather all the women who were in
22 that room in which I slept could hear when one of the
23 people beaten up in that room was brought in. We heard
24 his cries. We heard the blows. We heard glass
25 shattering and splinters falling to the floor. We
1 could hear the person who was being mistreated. So all
2 the women fell silent. We were all scared. Of course,
3 that night not one of us had a wink of sleep.
4 Q. Were there any specific instances where you
5 knew the victim of the beating?
6 A. I can mention Simo [sic] Saric and Professor
7 Puskar, Abdulah Puskar, because I heard them and
8 recognised their voices.
9 Q. Could you repeat the full name of the first
10 man you mentioned, Saric? What was his full name?
11 A. Silvio Saric.
12 Q. Now, where were you when you heard the
13 beatings of Saric and Puskar?
14 A. I was in that room, together with another
15 17 women who were in that room.
16 Q. Now, specifically with respect to Silvio
17 Saric, what could you hear?
18 A. I can quote the words he spoke when he was
19 being beaten, when he received those blows. They
20 demanded that he admit something and he said, "I'm not
21 guilty, Brothers. Why you are you doing this,
22 Brothers?" And then the answer was, "You Ustasha
23 motherfucker. Who is your brother? If you had been
24 our brother, you would be on our side."
25 Q. What did you hear after that?
1 A. Nothing. For a moment, everything fell
2 quiet. We didn't hear anything or anyone except the
3 words, "Get some water," which meant that the man was
4 unconscious. Then after awhile, they resumed the
6 Q. Now, when you heard Silvio Saric saying the
7 things you just said to the Court, could you tell if
8 they were beating him at that time?
9 A. Yes, when he said, "Don't do that, Brothers.
10 Why are you beating me? I'm not guilty. I'm
12 Q. What were the sounds that you heard that
13 indicated that he was being beaten?
14 A. Well, simply a blow, blows against these
15 metal cabinets, then the glass shattering and dropping
16 to the floor. All this could be heard, because we
17 women, who were lying down with our ears to the floor,
18 every movement, every step could be heard.
19 Q. Were there any curses during that beating
20 that you recognised so that you knew who it was that
21 was saying that to Saric?
22 A. I've already said the curses used. They
23 cursed his Ustasha mother, and they said, "If you were
24 our brother, you would be on our side." I've already
25 said that.
1 At one point in time, I recognised the voice
2 of Zeljko Meakic, but he wasn't alone.
3 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. We just would like
4 to know what is the right explanation of "Ustasha" in
5 this context.
6 MR. KEEGAN:
7 Q. What does "Ustasha" refer to, Witness B?
8 A. Well, "Ustashas" was the name given to
9 Catholics. For me, it's a derogatory term, similar to
10 the term "Chetnik" when it is used for Orthodox
11 Christians, if that is sufficient as an explanation.
12 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] And it applied
13 only to Catholics or also to Muslims in this context?
14 A. They called the Muslims Ustashas also or
16 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KEEGAN:
18 Q. Just to clarify now the record. When you
19 refer to Catholics, are you referring also to persons
20 who could be described as Croats?
21 A. I should like to give an explanation for the
22 term I'm using, "Catholic," "Muslims," and "Orthodox
23 Christians." "Catholics" apply to Catholics in Bosnia
24 and a Croat is an inhabitant of Croatia, as the word
25 itself implies. The Croats are also Catholics.
1 When I say "Orthodox," it applies to Serbs or
2 Orthodox people; whereas for me, the word "Serbian" is
3 an inhabitant of Serbia, but in Bosnia, they are
4 Orthodox, because both Serbs in Serbia are Orthodox.
5 Because in Bosnia, there are no Serbs or Croats there.
6 They're Orthodox, Muslim, and Catholic inhabitants.
7 That is my explanation.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,
9 I should like to remind you. If we are to finish with
10 this witness today, I think that we should have
11 finished by 12.30. As you know, there is the
12 cross-examination, the re-examination, and then the
13 Judges. So please bear that in mind. Thank you.
14 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm aware of
16 Q. How did you know that the victim of that
17 beating was Silvio Saric?
18 A. I recognised the voice, because I knew him a
19 long time before I came to the camp, many years before
20 the war.
21 Q. Had you spent a significant amount of time
22 socialising with him over the years before the war?
23 A. Yes. Most often, we went mountaineering, and
24 we met there at the mountain chalet at Kotlovaca,
25 taking long walks on Mount Kozara. We would organise
1 group outings of members of the mountaineering club
2 where we had gatherings and meetings of mountaineers,
3 and we spent a lot of free time together.
4 Q. Had you seen Silvio Saric in the camp prior
5 to the beating that you've described?
6 A. Yes, when he came.
7 Q. Did you ever see him after this beating?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you ever told by other prisoners what
10 had happened to Silvio Saric?
11 A. When I reached Karlovac, I was told that he
12 succumbed to the beatings, that he died. How he died,
13 I don't know.
14 Q. Now with respect to Professor Puskar, how did
15 you know that he was the other person who was being
17 A. In the same way as before. I heard it. I
18 knew him. He was my math teacher. Mathematics was
19 taught regularly in schools, so I had most contact with
20 him among all my teachers. So I recognised his voice
21 when he raised his voice or spoke quietly as in class.
22 So I remembered his voice.
23 Q. Did you ever see Abdulah Puskar in the camp
24 before this beating?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you ever see him again after this
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were you told by other prisoners what had
5 happened to him?
6 A. I was also told that he succumbed to those
8 Q. When you say "succumbed," do you mean he died
9 as a result of the beatings?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall a Serb holiday which occurred
12 while you were in the camp, called Petrovdan?
13 A. Yes, I do remember. Tyres were set on fire.
14 And I remembered it by an incident that I personally
16 Q. What did you see then?
17 A. I saw a tyre, a large tyre, on fire in front
18 of the "white house," and very thick, black smoke was
19 rising, and some flames from the tyre, and I just saw
20 the legs of a man in that tyre. Who it was, what had
21 happened, I don't know.
22 Q. When you say you saw the legs of a man in
23 that tyre, was that at the time when the tyre was on
25 A. Yes. Just when the flame flickered and lit
1 up the area, I noticed the legs. This was just the
3 Q. Do you recall whose shift -- which guard
4 shift was on duty at that time?
5 A. No. I don't recall that.
6 Q. Witness B, did you ever see dead bodies of
7 prisoners in the camp?
8 A. I saw, further away near the "white house"
9 and one that was being carried out of the "glass
10 house." It was Dalija Hrnic.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me
12 for interrupting you. The interpreters are asking you
13 to move a little away from the microphone. I
14 apologise. First they ask you to go up to the
15 microphone, now they're asking you to move away. It's
16 a bit complicated to please everyone, as you know.
17 Thank you very much.
18 You can put your headphones in a more
19 comfortable manner. Look what I do. You can adjust
20 them, you see. You can adjust them to make them
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I'm fine. I was
23 sitting in this way to give my arms a rest, but I'm
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We just
1 want you to feel at ease. You can do what you like
2 with your hands and rest in the best way that suits
4 MR. KEEGAN:
5 Q. Witness B, when you would see the dead bodies
6 in the camp, where would those bodies be, in what
8 A. In the area of the "white house." And this
9 one body that was carried out of the "glass house," as
10 I have just said.
11 Q. That was a person you identified as Dalija
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During the time that you were in the camp,
15 were the prisoners allowed to bathe? Were the men
16 allowed to shave? Were people allowed to wash their
18 A. No.
19 Q. At any time were women given the necessary
20 items for their personal hygiene?
21 A. No. Only the last month we were given a
22 kilogram of medical cotton wool if any of the women
23 would have their periods. Unfortunately, in my case,
24 after three months of stay in Omarska, I had three
25 periods. There was nothing that I could use except
1 toilet paper for as long as it existed; after that,
2 newspapers. There was nothing.
3 One of their cleaning ladies once, at my
4 request, brought me a few sanitary napkins. Otherwise,
5 as I said, I used paper or newspaper.
6 Q. These cleaning ladies, as you referred to
7 them, what areas of the camp did they work in? What
8 did they clean?
9 A. They were in the administrative building.
10 They were cleaning the offices or whatever. Anyway,
11 they were present there on a daily basis.
12 Q. Did they ever clean the areas where the
13 prisoners were?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. You have described what the food was like at
16 the camp, the hygiene conditions. Did prisoners suffer
17 from disease and illness?
18 A. There was dysentery.
19 Q. You also described the beatings and the
20 effects of those beatings.
21 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness please be
22 shown what was previously marked as Exhibit 3/31.
23 Q. Witness B, do the bruises that show in that
24 picture, did they -- are they representative of the
25 types of bruising you saw on the prisoners in Omarska?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness B, were women called out
3 of their rooms at night?
4 A. I shall give you my example, when I was taken
5 out. It was at the very beginning. Can I continue?
6 Q. Yes, please.
7 A. It was during the first ten-day period or so
8 when I arrived. A young man took me out during the
9 night. There was no electricity. There were just us
10 three women then in one of those rooms, myself, Velida,
11 and another one.
12 Q. What was the name of the man --
13 A. I can't remember now. There were two of them
14 with the same surname.
15 Q. Perhaps we'll come back to that question.
16 Witness B, what happened when this young man took you
18 A. He took me to one of these offices, with the
19 intention of rape. He threw me on the floor. I was
20 wearing the same sweatsuit. He lay on top of me and
21 started physically abusing me. I tried to defend
22 myself, and I did for as long as my strength lasted,
23 and at one point, he threatened to kill me if I
24 wouldn't let him have his way. I continued, like any
25 other woman, to fight back.
1 At one point, he crossed his fingers like
2 this and suddenly pulled down, and I felt a very strong
3 pain in the neck area of my spine, and I said to myself
4 if I survived I would report him.
5 And I mentioned Mladjo Radic then. I think
6 it was another -- Brane Boic, a policeman that I also
7 know, or Zeljko Meakic. One of the two. I know that I
8 mentioned one of these two, but I do know that I
9 mentioned Mladen Radic.
10 And he got up, sat at the other end of the
11 table, offered me his hand, and said, "Can we be
12 friends from tonight on?" Which means that people were
13 taken out without the superiors in the camp knowing
14 about it. And he was precisely the guard who was
15 watching over us three women. He was sitting in the
16 corridor. He was responsible, as the guard, for the
18 Q. Why did you mention Radic's name? Whose
19 shift was this guard on?
20 A. At first I didn't know. I didn't even know
21 that there were shifts, because this was at the very
22 beginning, when one simply doesn't know anything, out
23 of fear, and is not even interested in what was
24 happening. I mentioned Radic, as he was the only
25 person I knew.
1 Q. Did you later learn whose shift this guard
2 was on?
3 A. No. That guard, after a certain time, was
4 transferred from there, and I didn't see him at all for
5 a while. He was not there for long as a guard in the
7 Q. Were you ever called out at night by Zeljko
9 A. They would most frequently come during the
10 night to call me to make coffee for them if they were
11 tipsy or somebody was feeling sleepy on duty, and often
12 I would go out. And Zeljko would call me simply to ask
13 me certain things about something, so that I did go out
14 often, both during the daytime, in the evening, and
15 during the night.
16 Q. On one occasion did you walk into a room
17 Mladjo Radic was in, by mistake?
18 A. Yes, I did, unfortunately. That night I was
19 supposed to go to see Zeljko. I didn't understand
20 where, which room I should go to. And I opened the
21 first door, and when I entered, Radic said, "What are
22 you looking for here?" And I said, "Nothing. I'm
23 looking for Zeljko." However --
24 Q. Go ahead. Continue, please.
25 A. I asked him why he was there. I think he
1 will remember his answer. He said he was waiting for
2 Jadranka Cigelj. Whether she came or not, I don't
3 know. Anyway, I left, and Zeljko was in the next
4 room. When I told him that Zeljko sat down with me and
5 we talked again, he asked me about various places,
6 where the people of Kozarac may be hiding. That
7 evening I didn't experience anything, but --
8 Q. Witness B, excuse me. Did Radic say why he
9 was waiting for Jadranka? Did he say anything else?
10 A. Yes. Whether he was speaking seriously or
11 not, he was rather rude in the words he used, crude.
12 He was cursing her and saying that he would take his
13 revenge. Now, whether he did or not, I don't know, but
14 with me he never was very serious; he was always
16 Q. Witness B, on what day were you released from
17 Omarska camp?
18 A. On the 23rd of August.
19 Q. And where did you go from there?
20 A. I went to Trnopolje.
21 MR. KEEGAN: I have no further questions,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
24 very much, Mr. Keegan. We're now going to have a
25 half-hour break before beginning with the
2 But can I know already the order of the
3 cross-examination, or do you wish to discuss it during
4 the break, Mr. Simic?
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
6 in view of the fact that we are having a break, we will
7 have some consultations about that. Thank you.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
9 Mr. Simic. So we're going to have a half-hour break.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.59 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be
14 Witness B, you are now going to answer
15 questions put to you by the Defence counsels.
16 Mr. Simic, what is going to be the order of
17 the cross-examination, please?
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that
21 we're beginning with you; is that right?
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and
23 that's why we're sitting up here. The order will be as
24 it is in the indictment.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 Do all the Defence counsel have questions to put to the
3 Mr. Nikolic?
4 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
5 yes, I was just going to inform you and the opposite
6 side that the Defence of the accused, Mr. Kos, will not
7 be cross-examining Witness B.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
9 Mr. Nikolic. You may be seated.
10 Mr. Tosic?
11 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for
12 you to be able to plan the time for the
13 cross-examination, the Defence of Zigic Zoran will not
14 be asking Witness B any questions either. Thank you.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
16 Mr. Tosic.
17 Mr. Simic, how long do you expect to take?
18 Mr. Jovan Simic, how long do you expect to take? I see
19 that Mr. Fila is engaged in a conversation. I'm asking
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Some 20
22 minutes. A maximum of 20 minutes.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. I was
24 talking to Mr. Jovan --
25 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We're not sure
1 whether we will be asking any questions at this point.
2 We'll see whether our colleague counsel will raise any
3 of the questions we wanted to raise.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I
5 apologise for reversing the order. How long?
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Ten minutes.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ten
8 minutes. Very well. I see that Mr. Simic is going to
9 say that he needs 20 minutes, more or less; is that
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, about 20
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we'll do
14 our utmost to complete our questioning of this witness
15 today, even if we have to work until 4.00, and I'm
16 saying this without any fear. I know that the
17 interpreters and the other staff are trembling at this
18 point, but I think there are exceptional, extraordinary
19 circumstances where we must all proceed in an
20 extraordinary manner. I don't want to take up too much
21 time in explaining why.
22 So, Mr. Simic, please go ahead.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
24 Your Honour.
25 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
1 Q. Madam, I apologise for having to take up some
2 more of your time and take you back to these events,
3 events which are not a happy experience for you, and I
4 hope you'll be able to forget them as quickly as
5 possible without any undue results.
6 During Mr. Keegan's examination, you were
7 shown a photograph and you happened to mention a name,
8 and that name was Zoran Delic. You said that it was a
9 young man who, with two other persons, was in charge of
10 the distributing food while the women detainees were
11 not included in this process. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did Mr. Delic belong to the guards or some
14 other system, structure?
15 A. No, he wasn't a guard. He was just present
16 when the food was distributed.
17 Q. Did the other two individuals have this same
18 status until you yourself became part of the system?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As we're talking about the food, let's round
21 off that topic. During your testimony, you said that
22 the only illness in the camp was dysentery, which was
23 the result that the food would be returned that was not
24 used up on the previous day, and as the weather was
25 hot, the food would go bad, and the food would be
1 served up the next day in the camp and distributed to
2 the prisoners. Is that true?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Well, was it a common occurrence in Omarska
5 that food -- there would be too much food to be
6 returned to where it is cooked?
7 A. Unfortunately -- I have to tell the truth --
8 it was precisely during those days when the people were
9 beaten, physically abused, the prisoners coming to get
10 the food, and many of them didn't dare come. And I
11 stressed that earlier on. So that was the reason why
12 we had more food left over, food left over, surplus
14 Q. You also mentioned something with respect to
15 the police, the army, and so on, and you have some
16 knowledge in that respect, and I'd like to ask you
17 something about the relationship between the police and
18 the military. Were these two completely separate
19 systems in their functioning, in the way they
20 functioned? Were they set apart completely?
21 A. By virtue of the functions in the war? I
22 don't understand your question.
23 Q. Yes. I'm asking you about the organisation
24 of the army and the organisation of the police. Were
25 these two separate organisational systems within one
1 state system, within a community?
2 A. Well, the police had its functions and
3 activity in the area in which they were, and the army
4 went to the front and it had its functions to perform.
5 Q. Can we agree that the police and the army
6 were then two separate systems?
7 A. No. No. They cooperated.
8 Q. Yes, they cooperated, but in Omarska, for
9 example, in Omarska, the -- it is the Territorial
10 Defence -- not Omarska. I'm sorry. I made a mistake.
11 Not Omarska I mean Kozarac. There was a company of
12 Territorial Defence, I believe you said.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the commander, the leader of that
15 company, could he command -- was he in command over
16 policemen? Could he be their commander?
17 A. I don't know that. I was an ordinary,
18 run-of-the-mill soldier.
19 Q. What about the commander of the police? Did
20 he ever command you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. Now we're speaking about
23 Omarska. From your angle of vision, which was from
24 your advantage point at the restaurant, and the
25 buildings vis-à-vis the restaurant, were you able to
1 see roundabout members of the army, members of the
2 Territorial Defence, in fact?
3 A. No, except for the guards.
4 Q. You only saw the military guards?
5 A. The guards that were there.
6 Q. I see.
7 A. The guards that were there.
8 Q. You brought up the subject of interrogators
9 during your testimony frequently. Now, according to
10 our own terminology, interrogators working on the first
11 floor of the administration building, that's them, do
12 you happen to know who was the superior of these
13 interrogators? To whom did they report to after having
14 had an informative conversation with you?
15 A. No, I don't.
16 Q. You mentioned Zeljko Meakic on several
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in your statement -- and we'll return
20 back to that statement later on -- you said that before
21 this unfortunate occurrence, he was a professional
22 commander of the police station of Omarska. Is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now I'd like to go back to the relationship
1 of Meakic towards the interrogators and investigators.
2 The interrogators, did they send any reports to
3 Mr. Meakic with regard to the interrogation sessions,
4 the results of the investigations and so on or did they
5 report elsewhere?
6 A. I don't know that.
7 Q. In your testimony, you mentioned the
8 situations when new arrivals came by bus, new
9 detainees, and you also said, although you weren't very
10 definite, said that the persons on duty would go and
11 meet them.
12 I'd like to ask you now to tell us where the
13 buses which arrived, where they stopped.
14 A. The buses that came with the prisoners
15 usually stopped behind, parked behind the kitchen or in
16 front of the garage of that same building.
17 Q. In view of your status as a protected
18 witness, we're going to try and not have to go out of
19 public session. So from your position sitting down,
20 would you look at the model, take a look at the model
21 in front of you.
22 A. This one here you mean?
23 Q. Yes. The restaurant is the building nearest
24 to me.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The garage, as far as I can see, is at the
2 corner, diagonally away from me but closer to you.
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. Opposite the garage there is a broad concrete
6 A. Yes. That area was called the pista.
7 Q. When the buses arrived, where would they
9 A. They stopped behind the restaurant, behind
10 the kitchen, or in front of the garage; that is,
11 looking at it from my side here.
12 Q. From your side. I see. You said that in the
13 course of the day, you would be in the restaurant and
14 the area where you sat there. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You also said that during the night, you were
17 up on the floor above, in the rooms. Did these rooms
18 look out onto the restaurant or this opposite side?
19 A. They looked out onto the restaurant.
20 Q. I see. The restaurant. Thank you. Did you,
21 from whichever position, that is to say, the restaurant
22 and the room you slept in, were you able personally and
23 directly to see the buses arriving and people stepping
24 off the buses? Did you see that yourself?
25 A. I didn't see it myself; I just heard the
2 Q. Very well. You heard the noise of buses
3 arriving. Thank you. Would you tell me this then,
4 please, although you've already given an answer, did
5 you ever personally, you personally, with your very own
6 eyes, see Mr. Kvocka being present and attending the
7 arrival of new prisoners at the place where the buses
8 stopped? Yes or no, madam.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where from?
11 A. You go down from the room where it says
12 Militia, and he would move in the direction of the
14 Q. But a moment ago, we noted that either from
15 your first position or your second advantage point you
16 couldn't see the buses, you could just hear the sound
17 of them.
18 A. Yes, but I said that he went towards that
20 Q. You mean by the sound. He went towards the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let me go back to that question. He went in
24 that direction, but did you ever see him, the bus, the
25 prisoners, and Mr. Kvocka together? Did you see that?
1 A. Upon reception of the prisoners who were
2 moving around in the direction of where they would be
3 going, Kvocka would later on be amongst those guards in
4 that circle.
5 Q. We'll come back to Mr. Kvocka later, but let
6 us move on to Mr. Meakic for the moment. You said that
7 he was a professional chief of the police station in
8 Omarska, but during your testimony about the incident
9 that took place (redacted), you said that you
10 gave Mr. Meakic the information, you submitted him with
11 the information, and that your tone was a little
12 harsher in view of what had happened. Could you tell
13 me what Mr. Meakic's reaction was like?
14 A. Well, at first, when I arrived, or that is to
15 say when he asked me why they were on strike, why they
16 didn't want to eat --
17 Q. Yes. You explained all that, madam. You
18 explained it to Mr. Keegan and we understood what you
19 said. But did he undertake anything?
20 A. Whether he undertook anything, I don't know.
21 Q. No. I asked you did he say anything. That
22 was my question, madam.
23 A. When I asked him whether there would be any
24 consequences on me if I told the truth, he said, "No.
25 I want to know the truth." What he undertook, what he
1 did after that, I don't know.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. When you were telling Mr. Keegan about your
6 personal experience with the guard whose name you
7 weren't able to remember --
8 A. I remember the name now.
9 Q. Very well. But Mr. Keegan will probably ask
10 you that question later on, so I'm not going to ask you
11 the name now.
12 You said that you said you were going to
13 report him, amongst others, to Mr. Meakic. Did you, in
14 fact, do that?
15 A. No. For purely safety reasons for myself. I
16 was afraid that something would happen to me afterwards
17 if I did.
18 Q. Madam, in the course of December, did you
19 make a detailed statement in 1994, a detailed statement
20 concerning the events related to Omarska and also to
21 this particular event?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you give that statement of your own free
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Or were you forced to under pressure of any
3 A. No, no pressure at all.
4 Q. Did you say that that young man was
5 disciplinary -- that there was a disciplinary matter
6 over him and that he was discarded from the camp?
7 A. No. Meakic found out, after this dismantling
8 itself, about this incident with this boy, and Velida
9 Mahmuljin told him about that event. I just want you
10 to know that.
11 Q. Yes, but let me ask you a concrete question.
12 A. Yes. Please go ahead.
13 Q. So at that time when you gave your statement,
14 you did not say that you reported this young man to
15 Mr. Meakic?
16 A. No, I did not, and I did not report him then.
17 Q. But did you report him at all?
18 A. Yes, afterwards, when Zeljko called me, and
19 that's when Velida reported the incident, not me.
20 Velida reported the incident, and then Zeljko called me
21 to come to him, and he wanted to hear my explanation of
22 what had happened.
23 Q. When was this?
24 A. It was just before the disbanding of the
25 camp, when Zeljko called the two of us to ask whether
1 we had had any problems, and I said no; Velida said
2 yes. And Velida then told him, Velida Mahmuljin.
3 Q. Do you know whether food was prepared?
4 A. I think it was prepared down in the workers'
5 kitchen. I think so. But it came ready made, ready
7 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the cooking
8 of the meals, preparation of the meals?
9 A. No.
10 Q. During the time you spent there, and your
11 stay seems to be the longest, unfortunately, did you
12 happen to notice that in Omarska any health workers of
13 any kind came, nurses, doctors?
14 A. Yes, there was Dr. Ivic and there was a male
15 nurse. His name was Mico or something, a paramedic.
16 Q. How often would they come?
17 A. Well, I saw them just a few times, not often.
18 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of
19 Ljuban Andzic?
20 A. I don't remember him. He only came once,
21 when we women were away from -- discarded from the
22 camp. He came to that place down there where we were
24 Q. Did he bring any medicines, medical aid,
25 hygiene, anything for hygiene, that kind of thing, with
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. You mentioned a moment ago the women, the
4 cleaning women, cleaning ladies.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were they members of the police or the
7 Omarska company?
8 A. No. They just wore civilian clothing. They
9 were just cleaning ladies. They had their own
10 clothes. I don't know what they belonged to, what they
11 were a part of.
12 Q. Tell me, please: In addition to these women,
13 were there any other civilians who would, on behalf of
14 the Omarska mine company, do any work there?
15 A. Yes. There was a maintenance man on duty.
16 He was in charge of the installations. There were
17 several mechanics. And they were drivers at the same
19 Q. I'd now like to go back to a portion of your
20 testimony when you said that you saw Mr. Kvocka talking
21 to the guards, the policemen or the reserve police, and
22 that after this discussion they would go off, and that
23 you concluded that he had a certain status in the
24 hierarchy at Omarska; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know the system of organisation of the
2 appointment -- nomination and appointment of
3 individuals within the police system?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you happen to have any knowledge
6 whatsoever of the fact that in this procedure -- all
7 right, you say you don't know the rules. That doesn't
8 matter. But the procedure, do you happen to know
9 whether Mr. Kvocka had any decision or ruling as to his
10 status? Do you happen to know that?
11 A. Well, I don't understand your question.
12 Could you repeat it, please?
13 Q. Well, I'll be short and precise. Do you know
14 whether Mr. Kvocka had a legal act, a legal document, a
15 ruling, a decision, an order -- we were talking about
16 the army -- by which he had a work post of some kind?
17 It doesn't matter what, but some kind of official work
19 A. He was there.
20 Q. "There," you say. Very well. But do you
21 know whether he had any piece of paper assigning him to
22 any particular duty or post?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. Did you personally ever -- I know that there
25 were scenes of this kind, but we're all here to
1 ascertain the truth. Did you personally ever see any
2 beatings, abuse, any -- and did you see Mr. Kvocka
3 standing by and not doing anything about it?
4 A. When these people, these prisoners, were
6 Q. Yes, the arrivals. You explained that. You
7 said where you were standing, what that looked like, so
8 let's not return to that. But were you ever present,
9 as a witness -- don't be so surprised. You're a
10 witness, so I have to ask you whether you saw.
11 Witnesses see, if you see what I mean. Did you ever
12 see Mr. Kvocka order anybody to abuse anybody else?
13 A. No.
14 Q. A moment ago you mentioned that you would
15 often go into the room on the first floor -- it doesn't
16 matter where it is exactly, but it would be opposite
17 your dormitories -- where it said -- up on the door it
18 had the -- it said "militia" on the door, a plaque
19 saying "militia" on the door?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, we both know the set-up of that
22 administration building. Was that the only door that
23 had "militia" written on it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And who were in the other rooms?
1 A. The investigators, or interrogators. Yes,
3 Q. You said a moment ago that you would
4 frequently enter that room.
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. You made coffee as well?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Could you tell us the dimensions and surface
9 area of the room, roughly? Roughly. I don't want
10 to -- you needn't worry. We don't need an exact
12 A. It was about 3 by 3 1/2 metres, or 3 by 4
13 metres. It was a small room. But there was furniture,
14 there were tables.
15 Q. So 3 by 3, or 3 by 4 metres, which means 10
16 or 12 square metres, approximately.
17 A. Yes, approximately.
18 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please: In that room,
19 what kind of furniture was there?
20 A. There were two tables with a couple of
21 chairs. There was like a glass cabinet. In the corner
22 there was like a bed, which was used by the people on
23 duty. And there was some sort of a communications
24 equipment, radio or transmitter. I don't know.
25 Something like that.
1 Q. This room, during the day, and we are talking
2 about the period when the investigators were there, the
3 interrogators, did any one of the personnel of the
4 Prijedor police station attend? Did they undertake any
5 kind of activities there?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Did you notice, among these teams coming from
8 Prijedor -- I'm talking about the investigating
9 teams -- were women among them?
10 A. There were two.
11 Q. Do you know their names?
12 A. One was called Nada Balaban.
13 Q. And the other?
14 A. Lakic, Rada, I think.
15 Q. Fine.
16 A. I think so. Her surname was Lakic.
17 Q. You don't remember the name Nada Markovski?
18 A. No, I don't know it.
19 Q. You frequently use the term "on duty," saying
20 that certain persons were on duty in that room.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Leaving aside all the other things, was
23 Mr. Kvocka among those who kept duty in that room?
24 A. I never went to that room when Kvocka was on
1 Q. Did Mr. Meakic have duty service in that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You mentioned a loudspeaker system. Was
5 there any other communications equipment?
6 A. That is what I meant.
7 Q. You said a loudspeaker?
8 A. Yes. Maybe I misspoke.
9 Q. So it was a kind of radio station?
10 A. Yes. Some sort of communications equipment.
11 Q. Was anyone on duty there with that equipment?
12 A. Several times I was there when Zeljko Meakic
13 ordered a boy to be on duty there.
14 Q. Does that mean that somebody always had to be
15 in attendance there, to be reachable by communications?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Kvocka left Omarska.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know the reason why he left?
20 A. If the information I received is correct, the
21 reason was his two or three brothers-in-law, the
22 brothers of his wife.
23 Q. What did you hear about them?
24 A. They were staying in his house, apparently,
25 and were later brought to Omarska.
1 Q. And then?
2 A. I don't know. He wasn't there anymore.
3 Q. I see. He wasn't there anymore. So when his
4 brothers-in-law returned, Mr. Kvocka's brothers-in-law,
5 he was no longer in the camp?
6 A. I didn't see him after that.
7 Q. There's just one further point that I -- and
8 I should like to quote from your statement:
9 "In the morning two women asked me in the
10 room why I was dirty and dishevelled. I lied to them.
11 But they knew that I was lying, so I told them what had
12 happened. I did report him, after all, and they
13 withdrew him from his employment."
14 A. That was the time I was taken out during the
15 first ten days of my stay in Omarska.
16 Q. Yes, but I asked you a moment ago whether you
17 reported him to Mr. Meakic, and here you explain that
18 in detail. But as our time is limited, may I ask you
19 once again: Did you report him to Mr. Meakic, and was
20 he punished by his removal, as you stated in this
21 statement, or what you said today?
22 A. What I said today; that is the truth.
23 Q. Thank you very much, madam. I have no
24 further questions. I would like you to forget this as
25 soon as possible and that we can all go back to
1 normal. Thank you.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Mr. Simic. I think you took a little more than 20
4 minutes. Have you -- does that mean that you have
5 cross-examined for Mr. Fila as well? No. I see that
6 Mr. Fila is coming, so Mr. Simic hasn't taken his
8 Mr. Fila, you have the floor.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Fila.
10 Microphone is not switched on.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:
12 Q. You've had enough trouble. I don't want to
13 trouble you too much.
14 You mentioned that you knew Mr. Radic.
15 During your stay in Omarska, did he bring you some
16 food, pies and things?
17 A. He did.
18 Q. Did he treat you humanely?
19 A. He did.
20 Q. Was there a hot plate in the office where he
21 was working?
22 A. There was something for cooking coffee.
23 Q. Could you have coffee with him when he was
25 A. Whenever I made coffee, I would get a cupful
1 as well.
2 Q. Was there a toilet or a bathroom upstairs, or
3 at least a toilet?
4 A. There was.
5 Q. Could you use it?
6 A. Yes, we did.
7 Q. Could that window be moved, or not?
8 A. Yes. It was opened like this, towards you.
9 Q. What could you see through that window?
10 A. You could see the area in front of the
12 Q. Where the buses halted, came to a stop?
13 A. Yes. That area could be seen.
14 Q. Could you use the toilet in the restaurant?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know somebody called Bozidar
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was there somebody you called your guardian
20 angel over there?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Who stood in front of the area where the
23 women were detained, by somebody's orders?
24 A. There was a position where there was a guard
25 watching over the women when we went to sleep. There
1 was a position there.
2 Q. Did you know that person as Bozidar Markovic?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The composition of the shifts -- you said
5 there were three of them -- was it always the same?
6 Did they switch from one shift to another? That is my
8 A. Are you talking about the guards?
9 Q. Yes, the guards.
10 A. I don't remember. I don't know.
11 Q. Do you know who decided who would work in
12 which shift within the shift?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you think Radic could have determined
16 A. No.
17 Q. If those people were in Radic's shift, such
18 as they were, did he select them?
19 A. Can I give an explanation in my opinion.
20 Q. I am not in a hurry, but we all are.
21 A. I think that Mladjo Radic was a policeman
22 before the war as well, and I think that all those boys
23 saw Radic as a more important person than Milojica and
24 Momir Gruban.
25 Q. That was not my question. Who designated
1 those boys to work with Mladjo? Did Mladjo do that?
2 Radic, could he say, "I want so-and-so to work in my
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. But you were talking about the authority of a
6 former policeman, of a regular policeman?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When this incident occurred with the beating
9 and bread falling out, (redacted), where were you
10 when you complained to Mladjo Radic?
11 A. In the kitchen. In the kitchen. It wasn't
12 just that incident. It wasn't just that. But we spoke
13 in the kitchen. That's what I'm saying.
14 Q. Did you have any negative consequences as a
15 result of your complaint?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. From him?
18 A. No, no. But what was happening to those
19 people. It was so painful.
20 Q. No, no. My question is: The fact that you
21 complained to him, did you personally have any negative
22 consequences as a result of complaining to Mladjo
24 A. No.
25 Q. Why didn't you complain to him about this
1 Soskan then? If his name was Soskan.
2 A. First of all, I wanted to forget about it as
3 soon as possible. I didn't want to think about it. He
4 was a young man. I could have almost been his mother.
5 So I wanted to reject the whole incident.
6 Q. But the reason wasn't that you feared Mladjo
7 Radic and the consequences upon you?
8 A. No, no.
9 Q. Where were you when you saw that event on
10 St. Peter's Day?
11 A. In the restaurant. I'd like to show it to
13 Q. Was it in the restaurant?
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. Mr. Keegan promised to bring a pointer and he
17 A. That night when it happened, I left my room.
18 Q. When you say "room," tell us where that is.
19 A. On the upper floor where we slept. I passed
20 by the room where the other women slept. I entered the
21 office where the guard post was for the guard watching
22 the women and there was no one there, and I entered --
23 I'd love to show it to you. Then I entered this first
24 room for interrogation. I looked through the window,
25 because this had already been shown to me. I went
1 through the window to where the machine-gun was next to
2 the wall, and that is how I saw it.
3 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MR. KEEGAN: Sorry. I thought I turned it
6 on. I think Exhibit 3/28, which is a photograph of the
7 buildings from the outside, might assist Mr. Fila, and
8 she can use that on the ELMO to point where she was.
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I just
10 didn't wish to waist time.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila
12 has already gone over that. But thank you very much,
13 Mr. Keegan, anyway.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as
15 there was no identification of the accused, may I ask
16 the witness whether she recognises Mladjo Radic in this
17 courtroom and who he is?
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
19 Mr. Keegan?
20 MR. KEEGAN: We have no objection, Your
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have seen
23 the witness recognise him very well, but go ahead,
24 Mr. Fila.
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
1 Q. If you have recognised him, there's no need.
2 A. Yes, of course I know him.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's all. Thank
4 you, Your Honour. I've finished.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
6 very much, Mr. Fila.
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
9 towards the end of Mr. Fila's cross, you said that the
10 witness had recognised the accused well. However, we
11 expect the Prosecution to show the photo board on which
12 the witness did not positively identify Mr. Kvocka.
13 Thank you.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I
15 apologise. Please come back and carry out the formal
16 recognition by Witness B of Mr. Radic. That is clear.
17 I think there is something non-verbal that is
18 an English body language which is very clear, but
19 please go ahead, Mr. Fila, from the formal standpoint,
20 but we Judges are watching with attention. At least I
21 speak on my own behalf.
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Madam, will you please tell us, from the
24 door, not counting the gentlemen in uniform, who is
25 Mladjo Radic?
1 A. The first man next to the man in uniform.
2 Q. Just one more question. Did you see or hear
3 him after you left Omarska?
4 A. I called him once. I just asked them how
5 they were. It was just a formality. And I saw him
6 after his arrest, on television.
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.
10 Mr. Jovan Simic.
11 MR. J. SIMIC: We have no questions, Your
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Your
14 colleagues have done the work for you. So that's
16 Mr. Keegan, do you have any re-examination,
18 MR. KEEGAN: Yes. Just briefly please.
19 Re-examined by Mr. Keegan:
20 Q. Witness B, you were asked questions by Mr.
21 Simic regarding Mr. Zoran Delic and whether he was only
22 present in the camp when food was served. Now, were
23 you ever interrogated in Omarska camp?
24 A. Yes. I was the last to be interrogated in
25 the Omarska camp.
1 MR. K. SIMIC: Objection, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is
3 your objection, Mr. Simic?
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My objection,
5 Mr. President, is that in the course of the
6 cross-examination, neither Mr. Fila nor I mentioned the
7 witness' interrogation.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
9 Mr. Keegan.
10 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, I agree.
11 However, if my colleague will allow me, I was laying a
12 foundation to see who was present at the interrogation,
13 and that was the only question I was going to ask.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but
15 Mr. Keegan -- no. Go on to another question, please.
16 MR. KEEGAN: I'll make it more clear, Your
18 Q. Did you see Zoran Delic at anyplace in the
19 camp other than the kitchen?
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.
22 A. Yes. He was there when I was being
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There you
25 are, Mr. Simic. You can learn a little. There's
1 always a way of getting round things. So formalities
2 are always a little complicated. This is a good
4 Thank you, Mr. Keegan. Please proceed.
5 MR. KEEGAN:
6 Q. You were asked questions by Mr. Simic about
7 Zeljko Meakic's reaction when you reported to him that
8 the prisoners had been beaten on that day that you
9 described here in the courtroom, not that they were on
10 strike, and you were asked, "Did he say anything?" or
11 that he undertook any action.
12 Did the beatings at lunch, at the meal time,
13 continue after your conversations with Mr. Meakic, that
14 is, for the remaining time in the camp?
15 A. After this conversation with Mr. Meakic, it
16 was a little, a little better. There were less
17 beatings, less mistreatment, and even they gave them a
18 little more time to enter, eat, and get out.
19 Q. Now, Witness B, how long were you in the
20 camp? Until what date?
21 A. Until the 23rd of August, 1991 -- 1992. I'm
22 sorry, 1992.
23 Q. Do you recall -- in your testimony earlier,
24 you referred to the visit of the journalists and that
25 the women were not allowed to be present.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you recall the date of that visit?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You referred to a conversation with Zeljko
5 Meakic when he asked you and Velida Mahmuljin if you'd
6 had any problems in the camp.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You indicated that was at the end of your
9 stay in the camp.
10 A. Yes. He called the two of us, as I said.
11 They asked us whether we had any problems, because we
12 had spent the longest period of time there, whether we
13 had problems, mistreatment. I said no. However,
14 Velida told him about the incident when she was taken
15 out and everything that happened.
16 Q. Now, this conversation, was this just prior
17 to you leaving the camp on 23 August, 1992?
18 A. Yes. It was just before the camp was
19 disbanded or, rather, when people were divided up into
20 groups, first, second, and third category of
22 Q. Earlier you talked about there was a change
23 in conditions near the end of the time in the camp.
24 Are you able to say with certainty whether those
25 changes occurred at any time before the journalists
1 visited or after? Can you say with certainty?
2 A. I can say with certainty after the visit of
4 Q. Mr. Fila asked you some questions about
5 Mladjo Radic's shift, and you indicated that the boys,
6 as you called them, saw Radic as a more important
7 person because he'd been a regular policeman before the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If one of those guards was abusing a detainee
11 and Mladjo Radic ordered him to stop, in your
12 opinion --
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
14 Mr. Fila, what is your objection?
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The question is
16 being repeated. It has been asked; if Mladjo Radic
17 ordered, what would have happen, and you have that in
18 the transcript, asked and answered. The question is
19 being repeated in order to obtain a different answer.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, and
21 the answer was that they would obey. So I remember
22 that. You have the answer, Mr. Keegan.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Not all. Not
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 Thank you.
2 Mr. Keegan, go on, please. Don't repeat the
3 question. Go on to another question. You know how to
4 do that.
5 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I wasn't
6 going to ask the same question. I was asking a very
7 specific, following up on the information which the
8 witness now elicited on cross-examination.
9 Q. If Mladjo Radic was present when a guard was
10 abusing a detainee and Mladjo Radic ordered him to
11 stop, in your opinion, would that guard stop?
12 A. I believe he would, because after all, Mladjo
13 Radic was responsible, and I think he had some kind of
14 way of influencing the members of his shift.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I
16 saw you on your feet. What is the objection?
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] These are all
18 assumptions. If he had been present, if he had seen,
19 if there had been a beating, if he had ordered what
20 would have happened. This is in meteorology, in the
21 weather forecast and not in practice, legal practice.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In a sense
23 you are right, if it is a hypothesis -- it is a
24 hypothesis, but you know well that the Judges may know
25 how to make a distinction between when something was
1 done and when something is a hypothesis and when the
2 witness gives only opinion. So the Judges know how to
3 make a distinction.
4 He was trying to find out who would obey and
5 who would not obey, but it is a hypothesis.
6 Mr. Keegan, so go on to the matter directly with clear
7 and concise questions. That is what I keep repeating.
9 MR. KEEGAN:
10 Q. Witness B, you were also asked some questions
11 about whether there was any medical personnel who
12 visited the camp. You referred to Dr. Ivic and a
13 medical technician Mico, who had one arm. When you saw
14 them in the camp, what were they doing?
15 A. They would come there. They would go to the
16 police room. I didn't see them treating anyone. I
17 didn't see them giving them any kind of medical aid
18 that they might need. I didn't see them check up on
19 the health of the prisoners. I didn't see any of those
20 things done.
21 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, could we now have
22 shown to the witness what we have marked as Exhibit
23 3/89A and B, which is the Witness' 1994 statement
24 that's been referred to in cross-examination.
25 Q. Witness B, you have there a statement in both
1 the English and Bosnian languages. If you can look on
2 the English-language version one. Does your statement
3 appear on the first page of that document? I'm sorry,
4 does your signature appear? Excuse me.
5 A. Yes, quite obvious it is mine.
6 Q. And do you recall giving this statement to
7 members of the Tribunal?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And I believe it was already elicited on
10 cross-examination that you gave that statement freely
11 and voluntarily.
12 A. In Keraterm.
13 Q. No, no.
14 A. Or in Omarska.
15 Q. This statement in front of you.
16 A. Oh, I see. Yes. Yes, I did, yes.
17 Q. And can you look at the last page of the
18 English version, please, and indicate if your signature
19 also appears there on the acknowledgement?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, we would offer
22 Exhibit 39 -- oh, not yet. Sorry, Your Honour. We
23 should conclude your questions, first.
24 That's all I have.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,
1 perhaps I should have taken this into consideration
2 earlier on, but you sent us Exhibit 3/88A, B, and C,
3 but I don't think you used Exhibit C.
4 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I believe the
5 witness described that the pictures were of the house;
6 and specifically, one was of the street, one was of the
7 house before the war, and one was after, when it was
8 destroyed. I believe that's in the record.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
11 JUDGE WALD: Sorry, Mr. Keegan. You just
12 asked to have admitted the witness's whole statement,
13 which is a long statement with a lot of material in
14 it. I don't even what know -- we don't have any
15 underlined portions or any indicated portions. I don't
16 know what part of it you're suggesting and for what
17 reason you think it should be admitted. You certainly
18 are familiar with the debate, which we'll consider at
19 greater length at the Status Conference, as to whether
20 or not, when you have one contradiction, you can get an
21 entire witness's statement in, or whether it's only
22 allowed in for the purpose of illustrating the
23 contradiction. So maybe, at least for me, you can
24 elucidate on what basis you're admitting that long
1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I pulled back
2 from that because I recall that we were supposed to
3 wait until, indeed, after your questions to actually
4 offer the admissions, and I would have carried out the
5 full discussion then. I'm happy to do it now if you'd
7 JUDGE WALD: Well, it's just a brief,
8 because, I mean --
9 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, at this point there
10 is no decision on that issue.
11 JUDGE WALD: That's right.
12 MR. KEEGAN: Under our rules, of course here
13 at the Tribunal, the Judges are free to consider all
14 relevant evidence. It's up to you to decide what part
15 of that statement you would find relevant once you make
16 your decision. It's our position if they challenge a
17 witness on a statement, they can't escape the
18 inevitable by failing to show that witness the
19 statement and ask them if they agree if that's what it
20 says -- indeed, they don't even do -- to then try and
21 use that as an excuse to keep the whole statement out.
22 JUDGE WALD: No, I understand the whole
23 statement, but obviously you're also familiar with the
24 practice in many jurisdictions with which we're both
25 familiar, that you identify the portion that you want
1 to put in to show what's relevant or why their
2 particular portion was not the only one that was
3 relevant. But you don't get to put in a book.
4 MR. KEEGAN: That is true, Your Honour, but
5 I'm also aware in those same jurisdictions there's a
6 rule of completeness.
7 JUDGE WALD: That's correct.
8 MR. KEEGAN: And the Court can then decide
9 what parts it may or may not accept. And I'm also
10 aware that in other jurisdictions in the world, in fact
11 the whole statement would be considered, because it's
12 all part of the witness's evidence. And so I think
13 that obviously is a decision that will have to be made
14 by this Chamber at a later date, when we have the full
15 discussion, and of course at that point the Chamber can
16 then decide what, if any, portions it's going to give
17 weight to or accept as full evidence.
18 JUDGE WALD: Well, it certainly would have
19 been helpful if you would have indicated.
20 MR. KEEGAN: I was going to, but at the end,
21 Your Honour. I pulled it back because I realised I was
22 out of sequence.
23 JUDGE WALD: Okay.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 Now we move to the Judges' questions.
1 Mr. Simic, we are passing on to the Judges'
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
4 I have --
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The accused
6 cannot speak here. They will be given an opportunity
7 to speak. But I have noted on several occasions there
8 has been communication between the accused and the
9 counsel. The counsel know very well, full well, what
10 their duty is. Mr. Simic.
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
12 the Defence at this point wishes to tender documents
13 which it has received from the Prosecution. They are
14 incomplete, however. One document shows that the lady,
15 B, Witness B, did not make a positive identification of
16 Mr. Kvocka, regardless of the meetings and the events
17 she has recounted. But we only have the photos of
18 other -- boards of other individuals, and that is
19 why --
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
21 I apologise for interrupting. I do apologise. Perhaps
22 I'll be a little harsh on you, but do you know what it
23 means, work organisation, and how to organise work? We
24 have just said that we're going to treat the tendering
25 of documents in the file at the end of Judges'
1 questions. Have you understood that?
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you
3 very much. Thank you.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So please
5 do respect our moment, the Judges' question time, and I
6 give the floor to Judge Riad.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE RIAD: Witness B, good afternoon. I
9 would like to get some more clarifications from you, if
10 you can. After listening carefully to your very clear
11 testimony, I wanted to -- I gathered from your
12 testimony that several people were really in command of
13 the camp. First, you said that Kvocka was treated
14 as -- I'll try to find your words, but it doesn't
15 matter -- as responsible of the commandment and had
16 important functions in the camp, and that the guards
17 called him "chief."
18 Then, when you spoke about Prcac, you said
19 that he had the same functions as Kvocka, and also you
20 said that Meakic affirmed, I think, when you asked him,
21 affirmed that Prcac was the commander of the camp and
22 that he was the head of the security. So could you --
23 then can I -- can we understand from that there are
24 three commanders equal, which are Kvocka, and which are
25 Prcac, and which are Meakic? Is that what you said or
1 what I understood? On equal footing?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness,
4 JUDGE RIAD: But Radic was not among them?
5 A. No. I said that during my time there --
6 could you repeat the first name you mentioned? Zeljko
7 Meakic -- Miroslav Kvocka, yes. Miroslav Kvocka.
8 During the Kvocka Miroslav time, I said that he said
9 the function for which Zeljko Meakic told me after, for
10 Drago Prcac, who had come to replace Miroslav Kvocka.
11 JUDGE RIAD: So he replaced Kvocka, and Radic
12 was less than them?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RIAD: But Radic was the head of a
15 team, head of a shift?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE RIAD: And he was obeyed by this
18 shift? That's a question. Was he obeyed by the shift?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE RIAD: Now, this shift, there was this
21 Predojevic who apparently was violent, more violent
22 than the others, was this man some kind of above the
23 law, or was he acting in line with all this -- with the
24 policy of the whole team?
25 A. I don't know what policy this refers to, but
1 all I know is that that young man was a raging animal
2 in the camp.
3 JUDGE RIAD: Now, this leads me to the second
4 question. Do you think any of these people, whether
5 the commanders, Kvocka, Prcac, or Radic, if they said
6 no, if they asked for someone to stop, would they be
8 A. I think they would, but that is just my
9 assumption, that they would.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Were there incidents where they
11 asked somebody to stop, or somebody to do something, or
12 incidents where they were not obeyed?
13 A. No. I didn't notice that at all, had they
14 said "No" or "Don't do that." I didn't see that ever.
15 JUDGE RIAD: So in other words, none of the
16 people in control interfered to stop any beating or
17 torture, or whatever happened?
18 A. No.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, my other question is
20 concerned -- I'm sorry to ask you -- this abuse you
21 mentioned. Were there other ladies abused, apart from
22 the experience which happened to you?
23 A. It's difficult to say for another woman,
24 another person, woman. And it is not up to me. I
25 cannot speak for other women. Can I say something
2 JUDGE RIAD: Go ahead.
3 A. There were those who were abused.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Because you mentioned the
5 example of Velida, but you didn't go ahead -- you said
6 that you concluded from her silence and her pain that
7 she was abused.
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Then you mentioned also that
10 when you went by mistake -- I think it was by
11 mistake -- to Radic's room, he told you he was waiting
12 for Jadranka.
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RIAD: [Previous translation continues]
15 ... Jadranka, and what did you gather from that?
16 A. Well, that Jadranka was in the same situation
17 as I was. She was a prisoner. Whether she came there
18 or not, I don't know.
19 JUDGE RIAD: But you said he told you
20 something about her.
21 A. Yes. Do you want me to repeat it?
22 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, please, if it gives any
24 A. Well, he said something along these lines:
25 that he was waiting for Jadranka to get his own back on
1 her. Now, what kind of retribution, I don't know.
2 It's difficult for me to say. And I'm a woman. It's
3 not simple for me to talk about things like that.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Was she a prisoner, Jadranka?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE RIAD: That's all. Now, there is
7 finally just a question. One of the pictures, 3/70D,
8 with an old man walking, going into the restaurant, a
9 man who could be in a very advanced age. Did they have
10 old people in the camp?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE RIAD: What age?
13 A. Well, judging by their appearance, they were
14 about between 65 and 70 years old. And this is obvious
15 from the photograph.
16 JUDGE RIAD: It's obvious that the man is
17 much older than that. So they might get older in the
19 A. The conditions of the camp.
20 JUDGE RIAD: Were there children?
21 A. There were minors as well. Yes, under age.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Under age. What do you call
23 "under age"?
24 A. Under the age of 18.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Under the age of 18. Thank you
1 very much, Witness B.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Judge Riad.
4 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
5 JUDGE WALD: I have only one question. In
6 the beginning of your testimony, when you said that
7 your neighbours, who had been listening to the radio,
8 said that instructions had come to go on, to abandon
9 their homes and move on to the centre of the village,
10 did your neighbours tell you that those instructions on
11 the radio came from any particular source? Was it
12 military, was it civilian? Was it the Serbs who were
13 taken over? Was it the old TO? How did the source
14 identify itself, if you know?
15 A. That information came via Radio Prijedor.
16 JUDGE WALD: But it didn't say -- did you
17 know at that time, or did they know, who controlled
18 Radio Prijedor at that time?
19 A. I don't know that.
20 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness B,
22 I have just one question to ask you. The Prosecutor
23 asked you their questions, the Defence asked you
24 questions. Is there anything that you should like to
25 say which hasn't been raised yet, which nobody has
1 asked you yet, and you'd like to talk about?
2 A. There are a lot of things that I'd like to
3 say in conclusion, but I find it very difficult.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Take your
5 time, Witness. We have great respect for the suffering
6 you have had, all of us here. So please do take your
7 time and feel at ease.
8 A. Your Honours, I shall try, nonetheless, to
9 say something. After all the tragedies that happened
10 over there, it is very difficult for me to say, and I
11 can never say that I'm happy or will be happy. I lost
12 my father, I lost my sister. My daughter has great
13 difficulties after everything, and so do I myself. I
14 have a lot of problems. I'm just asking myself who had
15 the right to take me from my home, from my country too,
16 so that I am a refugee, a displaced person in the
17 world? Who had the right to do all this? And I hope
18 that nonetheless the person who did that will be
19 punished, both by God and by you, and that you will
20 give them just sentence for what they did. So much for
21 me. Thank you.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
23 Witness B. We are here to try and do that, and
24 independently of the responsible people, all the things
25 that happened to you and to the other people, we do not
1 differentiate between ethnicity and nationality. We
2 know that everybody suffered in one way or another.
3 But we shall do our utmost to do something. And you
4 yourself have given your own contribution, and let me
5 say, you did it courageously, and we should like to
6 express our deep gratitude to you for your coming
7 here. You can stay there, before you leave, to put the
8 protective measures in place.
9 And in the meantime, we shall be tendering
10 documents and exhibits.
11 Mr. Usher, the witness remains where she is.
12 I think that if we draw the blinds, that the witness
13 could leave the courtroom.
14 Because, madam, I think you should have a
15 good rest now. Thank you once again for coming,
16 Witness B.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you too, Your Honours.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Admission
20 into evidence. First of all, I should like to say that
21 I have noticed that one of the accused communicated
22 aloud with the counsel, and I have said that he has no
23 right to do that. You understood the context. Of
24 course, the accused can communicate with the Defence,
25 but the Chamber can prevent it from being done in that
1 manner. And I think that the accused understand what I
2 meant. So I have nothing further to say.
3 As for admission into evidence, Mr. Keegan,
5 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. The
6 Prosecution would offer into evidence Exhibits 3/27 and
7 3/24 [sic], which were the photos of Keraterm Camp;
8 Exhibit 3/31, which was the photograph of the man with
9 the bruises; Exhibit 3/70A through D, which was the
10 four photographs of the prisoners going in to get the
11 meal and leaving the canteen; Exhibit 3/69A and B,
12 which were the photographs of Mladjo Radic and Drazenko
13 Predojevic, and the uniforms; exhibit 3/88A, B, and C,
14 which were the photographs of the witness' house; and
15 Exhibit 3/89A and B, the witness' statement.
16 I'm advised, Your Honour, that the transcript
17 said "3/24" for one of the photographs for Keraterm.
18 It should be 3/34. So 27 and 34.
19 Unless I'm corrected by my colleagues, Your
20 Honour, I think that's all of the exhibits.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,
22 just to speed things up, you understood well, I think,
23 what Mr. Simic is going to ask, the document you are
24 familiar with. To speed things up, can you tell us
25 something straight away? Can you respond before
1 Mr. Simic?
2 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. We provided
3 the Defence all relevant photo boards which any of the
4 witnesses have viewed, and we have no objection if the
5 Defence wants to offer the photo boards and the
6 documents which indicate the results of those photo
7 boards. So we have no objection.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
9 Mr. Simic, for going ahead a little, but I think we
10 understood what your motion was. So do you have any
11 objection to the admission of the exhibits tendered by
12 the Prosecution and your own suggestion?
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
14 I speak only in my own name. Regarding all the
15 exhibits, that is, photographs, we have no objections.
16 However, as regards the admission of the statements of
17 Witness B, we do have an objection, because in the
18 materials, we received another statement in B/C/S.
19 There is no date or anything else. This is a statement
20 that differs considerably, and it was not tendered by
21 the Prosecution today. It has a number on it but not a
22 proper exhibit number.
23 As for our suggestion to tender documents, it
24 is true that the Prosecution has been providing us
25 photo boards for identification. Unfortunately, as far
1 as Witness B is concerned, we were given a list of all
2 persons who did carry out identification, and on this
3 list it is clearly evident that Witness B did not
4 recognise Mr. Kvocka on the photograph offered to her.
5 However --
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
7 are you asking for this document to be admitted? Don't
8 make any allegations about the document; just ask for
9 its admission. Do you understand the distinction?
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I do, Your
11 Honour. But I want to tell you, Your Honour, that the
12 Prosecution did not give us the photo board linked to
13 this case, this identification, so we can only tender
14 as evidence a list confirming -- or a document
15 confirming that Witness B did not identify Mr. Kvocka.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,
17 any objection to the admission of 3/99A and B,
18 statement of the witness? And why did the Defence not
19 receive this document, as Mr. Simic has just told us?
20 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, at this time I
21 cannot confirm that the Defence did not receive it.
22 This has been an ongoing problem, Your Honour. We have
23 recently sent letters to the Defence reminding them we
24 have the obligation to disclose. When we do disclose,
25 we provide receipts which we request the Defence to
1 sign and return, and if they are not provided with
2 something on the list, to note that on the receipt.
3 Unfortunately, the Defence counsel, in
4 large -- well, in almost all circumstances, have failed
5 to return these receipts. So until they do so, we
6 can't confirm whether they received something or not.
7 We will certainly provide another copy to the
8 Court and allow for its admission into evidence at the
9 next hearing if Mr. Simic, in fact, can confirm he did
10 not receive it. We would be happy to do that. But
11 although, of course, we have the obligation to
12 disclose, we believe they have the obligation to
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.
15 Mr. Simic was speaking in his own name. I still
16 haven't heard the reaction of the other Defence counsel
17 regarding the admission of these exhibits.
18 Mr. Nikolic's team. Mr. O'Sullivan.
19 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might, just
20 before Mr. O'Sullivan speaks. With respect to the
21 issue raised by Mr. Simic about another statement, he
22 was at liberty to offer it and we certainly have no
23 objection to its admission, the second statement that
24 he's referred to. Once we can see the document and, in
25 fact, see that it is the statement of Witness B, we
1 would have no objection to its admission.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
3 Mr. O'Sullivan.
4 Just a moment, please, Mr. Krstan Simic.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, with regards to
6 all the exhibits, with the exception of Witness B's
7 statement, we have no objections. We do object to a
8 procedure by which previous out-of-court statements are
9 admitted in their entirety.
10 Your Honours, I submit that previous
11 statements used during cross-examination and put to a
12 witness for confrontation are used for impeachment
13 purposes only, and in my submission, they're
14 admissible -- their admissibility is limited to the
15 impeachment, and the statement in it's entirety is not
17 The procedure I've just described was used in
18 the Celebici trial. I submit it should be adopted and
19 followed in these proceedings. It's good law in this
20 Tribunal, it's sound law, and it ensures that Your
21 Honours can make a fair determination of the issues.
22 The Trial Chamber hears a witness viva voce,
23 and if that witness is confronted with a previous
24 out-of-court statement, that can allow Your Honours to
25 judge issues such as credibility of that witness and
1 weight you accord to his or her testimony.
2 So our submission is that witness statements
3 used during cross-examination are admissible for the
4 limited purposes of impeachment and for no other
5 reason. Those are my submissions on this point.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
8 without repeating what has just been said, I support
9 what Mr. O'Sullivan has said, as well as the position I
10 presented yesterday, that if a statement is admitted,
11 then it applies only to the person who cross-examined
12 and not to the other Defence counsel.
13 I also object to the admission of
14 Exhibit 3/31. It is a photograph of a man with
15 something red all over his body. I never saw such a
16 red-coloured body, and I don't know whether this is red
17 paint or whether these are really bruises. And where
18 would it end if we were all to bring photographs of
19 this kind to the courtroom.
20 On several occasions, this Trial Chamber has
21 referred to its intelligence and the intelligence of
22 all of us, and I'm sure all of us know what bruises
23 look like, and they don't look like this. Not as red
24 as this, anyway. Therefore, I object in principle.
25 I have admitted that there were beatings in
1 the Omarska camp. So let me make it clear: There were
2 bruises, but tendering this type of evidence will not
3 lead us anywhere. I am not denying that you are right,
4 that there were beatings, but I do object to this
5 photograph. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But excuse
7 me, Mr. Fila. You accept the admission of this
8 document, coupled with your reservations?
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If I am told where
10 this photograph was taken, who is on the photograph.
11 Did he belonged to Omarska?
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic.
13 Please don't repeat what others have said, if
15 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your
16 Honour. I'll do my best. We have no objection to the
17 admission of the documents tendered by the Prosecution,
18 except we support colleague O'Sullivan and my learned
19 friend Mr. Fila, without repeating what they have
20 said. And secondly, also regarding Mr. Simic's
21 tendering of documents, because from the exhibit, it is
22 clear that Witness B did not recognise our client, and
23 as this is the same document where our client is
24 mentioned, we too would like to support Mr. Simic's
25 suggestion that that list of identification be
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Mr. Tosic.
4 Mr. Jovan Simic.
5 MR. J. SIMIC: Your Honour, we're opposed to
6 the admission of the statement, and we support the
7 objections of our colleague O'Sullivan and Mr. Fila.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
9 very much, Mr. Jovan Simic. I think Mr. Krstan Simic
10 had something to add, but before I give the floor to
11 Mr. Keegan, I had a feeling you had something to add,
12 Mr. Krstan Simic.
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
14 just one sentence. I would ask that a photo board for
15 Mr. Kvocka be attached to this. Mr. Zigic is there
16 too. We have the photo boards, but we do not have the
17 photo board for Mr. Kvocka, so could it be attached?
18 Your Honour, I have a feeling that there's
19 some confusion here. It is not disputed that the
20 Prosecution has disclosed to us a report and three
21 photo boards linked to the identification of certain
22 persons. Also, the Prosecution has disclosed to us
23 another document with a list of all the persons who
24 were identified, and under number 21, Witness B
25 confirmed that she did not recognise Mr. Kvocka.
1 However, the technical problem is that the only
2 document lacking is the photo board, and we appeal to
3 the Prosecution to attach that photo board and then
4 there will be no confusion and no problems. The
5 problem will be solved.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,
7 I was thinking that since we're already late, perhaps
8 we can admit all the uncontested documents and then we
9 can take up the matter when we resume the hearings
10 during the discussion. Perhaps that would be better.
11 So if you can give us an idea of your
12 response, because there was some concrete matters
13 requested by Mr. Simic, otherwise, we will not go on
14 with this debate.
15 Do you agree with this plan at first glance,
16 with this suggestion?
17 MR. KEEGAN: I believe, Your Honour, that
18 Ms. Hollis would like to answer this.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 Ms. Hollis.
21 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we agree with your
22 suggestion. The concrete plan regarding the specific
23 exhibits that Mr. Simic is requesting, the Defence were
24 given a variety of affidavits from the chief
25 investigator of Team 1, indicating that in certain
1 circumstances, photo boards were not kept when a
2 witness failed to identify someone. The affidavits
3 also indicated that there was a failure to identify.
4 Now, again because we don't know, based on
5 Mr. Simic's assertions alone, whether he received that
6 document or not, and I haven't had sufficient time to
7 go through our receipts to see if he did receive it, I
8 can't at this moment say whether he was given that
9 affidavit. It is my understanding that those
10 affidavits were severed on Defence counsel, and
11 certainly reports were served on them to show that
12 there were failures to identify these individuals. So
13 I will verify that those were served. To the extent
14 that they were not, I will certainly make them
15 available, but it's my understanding that they were
16 served. And we agree that the issue of these
17 statements is an issue that should be taken up at a
18 later time, because we believe that it is a significant
19 issue and would warrant some discussion.
20 So we do agree that things that are not
21 contested would be admitted at this time, and we would
22 deal with contested matters at the next hearing.
23 We would, perhaps, take this opportunity to
24 ask the Court to perhaps make their position known
25 about whether they would ask the Defence to please make
1 an effort to check the material we give them, sign the
2 receipts in a timely fashion, return them to us, and
3 tell us what's missing. We don't think that's unfair.
4 We do believe, in fact, that's an obligation. We go to
5 great trouble to give them very itemised receipts and
6 they very seldom return them. Some return them much
7 more frequently than others and we appreciate that, but
8 for the most part, we haven't gotten them back, and
9 that makes it easier for them to stand up and say, "We
10 were never given it." So we would ask for some
11 assistance with that perhaps.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're
13 admitting into evidence the exhibits that were not
14 contested, and the others, we will resume the
15 discussion on them at a later stage. I'm saying this
16 because we don't have time to continue this
17 discussion. I hope you understand.
18 Before adjourning, I should like to follow on
19 what Ms. Hollis has just said, to see whether you have
20 indeed received or not something. Maybe this is
21 something we should discuss at a Status Conference,
22 that is, the organisation of work by the Defence,
23 because in my opinion, allow me to speak very frankly,
24 there is a lot to be done outside the courtroom, and I
25 fear that the Defence will one day come and say, "We
1 need time to do such-and-such a thing."
2 As far as the Prosecution is concerned, I
3 wish to tell you that we really have to think over all
4 the initial ideas about summaries, seven days' advanced
5 notice, et cetera, et cetera. We really must make sure
6 that the Defence has received, seven days in advance,
7 lists of witnesses and these things, and this is a
8 reciprocal issue. It applies to both sides.
9 As we're going to have a recess in this case,
10 I should like to think that this stage was truly
11 exceptional. I would like us to resume the case with a
12 completely different dynamics, when things will flow
13 easily, when everyone will accomplish its duties of a
15 You know that we have come to the conclusion
16 that we must make a distinction between the time for
17 the hearings, precisely to respect witnesses coming
18 here. When I talk about witnesses, I always say that
19 the Defence or the Prosecution, be they Serb, Croats,
20 or others, they are persons who come here, and I wish
21 to tell you that the Chamber will be extremely vigilant
22 regarding the respect we owe the witnesses and which we
23 must guarantee to them. And in order to respect those
24 witnesses, we must really make the best of the time for
25 the hearings and separate the time for our own
2 I do not wish to interrupt you, but we must
3 organise the way we speak. Otherwise, you yourself
4 will understand that we will not achieve our goals.
5 The first day of the next hearings, I'm
6 telling you that we will be having a Status Conference
7 a day or two later, which is necessary to regulate the
8 conduct of the proceedings.
9 I just now wish to wish you all the best in
10 your work -- we are all going to work and not rest --
11 and have a good weekend, all of you.
12 I must now thank the interpreters and the
13 technical booth for agreeing, though involuntarily, to
14 work overtime. But in any event, I thank you all for
15 making your services available for us to finish our
16 work today. Thank you.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
18 at 3.38 p.m., to be reconvened on
19 Monday, the 5th day of June, 2000
20 at 9.30 a.m.