Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2727

1 Wednesday, 7 June 2000

2 [Closed session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

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Page 2781

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

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6 [Open session]

7 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, as they go to get

8 the witness, I would note for the record that the

9 Prosecution had intended, that as part of this witness'

10 evidence, we would provide the prior testimony of this

11 witness in the Tadic case. We know that last evening,

12 yesterday afternoon, we spoke about the question

13 regarding the admissibility of prior statements. We

14 would ask the Court if a decision has been made at

15 least as regards prior testimony of a witness so that

16 we know whether we should tender that or whether we

17 should proceed without the prior testimony.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not yet,

19 Ms. Hollis. We haven't decided yet. We're trying to

20 expedite the process and have a ruling by the Trial

21 Chamber, because it is a priority, of course, but we

22 haven't taken a final ruling with regard to prior

23 testimony yet.

24 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour, for the

25 clarification.

Page 2782

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Does the

2 Defence have any objections to having the Tadic

3 transcript tendered and that testimony, the prior

4 testimony? It is the transcript, not the prior

5 testimony, but the Tadic transcript.

6 Mr. Simic, do you have a response from your

7 collective?

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No. This has

9 taken us by surprise so we haven't had a chance to

10 confer, and I'll be speaking in my name. We opened

11 that question yesterday; we started the question.

12 Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan presented our views on behalf of

13 Mr. Kos and Kvocka, and we don't want to violate our

14 principle before we get a ruling, and I speak for

15 Mr. Kvocka's Defence, of course.

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour, we

17 object.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

19 Mr. O'Sullivan. We are talking about a transcript, not

20 about prior testimony. Yesterday we were speaking

21 about prior testimony of witnesses. Now we're speaking

22 about the LiveNote, the transcript of the Tadic

23 audience. I think that that perhaps changes matters

24 somewhat.

25 That is what we're talking about now,

Page 2783

1 Ms. Hollis. It is the transcript of the Tadic hearing;

2 is that correct?

3 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we're talking about

4 the transcript that sets out the testimony of this

5 witness in the Tadic case.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 MS. HOLLIS: Not a prior statement but prior

8 sworn testimony given in the Tadic case.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

10 Mr. O'Sullivan.

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. We object

12 for the same reasons. We don't know on what basis he

13 was cross-examined by counsel in the first case. The

14 Defence strategy may have been quite different than any

15 of the five here. Your Honours did not view this

16 witness during his testimony in Tadic. You don't even

17 know if the Trial Chamber in Tadic believed him or

18 believed every word he said. So for that reason we

19 object, on the same basis that we object to the prior

20 statements.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're

22 talking about the witness who has just finished his

23 testimony, I think, or are we talking about the next

24 witness? We're talking about the witness that is just

25 coming in; is that correct?

Page 2784

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

3 apologise. Madam Hollis, are we talking about the

4 witness that has just finished his testimony or the

5 next witness?

6 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we're talking about

7 Edin Mrkalj, the witness we're calling now. That's why

8 I raised the issue. It's not the statement of the

9 prior witness, it is the testimony of this witness.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see.

11 Thank you. So the situation does not change, and I

12 apologise for having to interrupt and for entering into

13 it with this confusion.

14 I haven't heard Mr. Fila, Mr. Tosic, and

15 Mr. Jovan Simic yet.

16 Mr. Fila, it is sufficient to have an

17 objection to prevent it.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I am in favour of

19 having Ms. Hollis's proposal adopted. So my opinion is

20 different from the others, and that is why -- because

21 the Tadic case is a public hearing. The transcript was

22 public and was accessible to one and all. Therefore, I

23 think that Madam Hollis is right, and my position

24 differs from the others. But as I am alone in this

25 opinion, then I don't think it will have much value.

Page 2785

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Mr. Tosic.

3 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

4 don't feel I need to discuss the matter because we

5 supported the position of Mr. Simic yesterday and

6 Mr. O'Sullivan, so that we would like to wait and hear

7 the Trial Chamber's ruling.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

9 to complete matters, you have the floor.

10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We join the

11 opinion of Mr. O'Sullivan, our colleague, and we feel

12 that at this moment we cannot go forward in that way.

13 We do not feel that a decision can be made in the

14 matter before a ruling is reached.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 Madam Hollis, as we have not had a ruling yet -- may I

17 remind you that we will have to take into consideration

18 the fact that there has been accord with regard to the

19 parties relevant to the facts; that is to say, we still

20 have not made our ruling, but we did say earlier on

21 that the Trial Chamber does accept agreement with

22 regard to fact.

23 If that can assist you in any way in

24 designing your examination-in-chief -- the Trial

25 Chamber will not give you any instructions as to how

Page 2786

1 you should do your work -- we just wish to remind you

2 that the Appeals Chamber has no doubt with regard to

3 the acceptance of generally recognised and acknowledged

4 facts on which the parties have agreed, and I'd like to

5 say that for the transcript.

6 So Mr. Registrar, I think we can have the

7 witness shown in at this point.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you

10 hear me, Witness? Good morning to you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear

12 you.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now

14 going to read the solemn declaration presented to you

15 by the usher.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

17 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

18 and nothing but the truth.

19 WITNESS: EDIN MRKALJ

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

22 seated.

23 Would you please approach the microphone and

24 make yourself comfortable. Can you hear me? Do you

25 hear us properly?

Page 2787

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

3 for coming. You are now going to answer questions put

4 to you by Ms. Hollis.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examined by Ms. Hollis:

7 Q. Would you please state for the record your

8 name and your date of birth.

9 A. My name is Edin Mrkalj, and I was born on the

10 13th of June, 1965.

11 Q. Where were you born?

12 A. I was born in the village of Biscani, the

13 Prijedor municipality.

14 Q. Did you live in Biscani until you were 15

15 years old and then move to Sarajevo?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you move back to the village of Biscani

18 in January of 1988?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The village of Biscani, where is it located?

21 A. It is located in the Prijedor municipality.

22 Q. How close is it to the town of Prijedor?

23 A. Well, the first houses are about three

24 kilometres away.

25 Q. What is the ethnic composition of the

Page 2788

1 village, or what was the ethnic composition of the

2 village of Biscani up until May of 1992?

3 A. The village was populated exclusively with

4 Muslims.

5 MS. HOLLIS: If we could ask that Exhibit

6 1/26 be provided to the witness, please.

7 Q. You, sir, what is your ethnicity?

8 A. I'm a Muslim.

9 Q. Sir, if you could take a moment to orient

10 yourself to this map. And then if the portion of the

11 map that shows the town of Prijedor could be placed on

12 the overhead. If the witness could please point to

13 Biscani on this map.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 MS. HOLLIS: Could we please have the

16 technical people come in for a closer view of that

17 area.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Biscani. As we are looking at this map, we

21 see the area or the village of Rizvanovici. Are you

22 familiar with that village?

23 A. Yes, I am.

24 Q. And then if we could move to the village of

25 Carakovo, where is that?

Page 2789

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Sir, could you also show us the village of

3 Hambarine?

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. Also, if you could point to Rakovcani on the

6 map.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. Now, this entire area that you have pointed

9 to, what is this area known as? What is the term that

10 is used to describe this area?

11 A. This area was known as Brdo, or "hill."

12 Q. This Brdo area, what was the ethnic

13 composition of this area as of May of 1992?

14 A. It was exclusively populated by Muslims.

15 Q. Sir, up until the 10th of April of 1992, what

16 was your occupation?

17 A. I was a policeman by profession, a security

18 technician.

19 Q. Did you train in Sarajevo at the School of

20 Internal Affairs?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. How long was that training in Sarajevo?

23 A. Four years.

24 Q. What did you study as part of this training?

25 A. I was in the Internal Affairs school, and it

Page 2790

1 was exclusively intended for the training of members of

2 the public security services.

3 Q. Then did that train you to be an active-duty

4 or regular police officer?

5 A. Yes, it did.

6 Q. Did that training you received include

7 standards of conduct for police officers?

8 A. Yes, it did.

9 Q. And did it include police procedure and the

10 structure of the Yugoslav police departments?

11 A. Yes, it did.

12 Q. Did it also include the command structure of

13 the police?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did the training also involve learning about

16 duties and responsibilities of police officers and

17 superiors?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What year did you complete your training?

20 A. 1984.

21 Q. Where was your first posting as a police

22 officer?

23 A. In Belgrade, in the federal SUP.

24 Q. What years did you work in Belgrade at the

25 federal SUP?

Page 2791

1 A. I worked there until the 31st of December,

2 1987.

3 Q. What were your duties in Belgrade at the

4 federal SUP?

5 A. Security for diplomatic and consular

6 representative offices and buildings of vital state

7 importance.

8 Q. Now, when you say that your duties involved

9 security for these offices and buildings, did that

10 security include the security of personnel who worked

11 in those buildings and offices?

12 A. Yes, of course.

13 Q. As part of your ongoing responsibilities in

14 this job, did you train to respond to different threat

15 situations?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As a result of your duties there and your

18 training, did you have a heightened awareness of

19 potential threat situations?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, you indicated you worked for the federal

22 SUP. What was the difference between the federal SUP

23 and a republic-level SUP?

24 A. The difference was in territorial

25 competence.

Page 2792

1 Q. What do you mean by that?

2 A. The republican SUP is active on the territory

3 of a republic; the federal SUP has competence and

4 authorisation to function in the whole area of the

5 state, if need be.

6 Q. And then a local SUP, such as a SUP at

7 Prijedor, what would be the competence of that SUP?

8 A. It would be territorial competence; that is

9 to say, it would cover the territory covered by the

10 Prijedor municipality.

11 Q. When you returned to Biscani in January of

12 1988, what duties did you assume?

13 A. I worked in the public security service,

14 public law and order, traffic and the criminal

15 department, for crime.

16 Q. In what police department?

17 A. The public security station of Prijedor. It

18 was what we called the central Prijedor police

19 station.

20 Q. At that time, how many police stations were

21 in opstina Prijedor?

22 A. There was the central police station in

23 Prijedor; then there were local police stations that

24 were situated in Ljubija, Kozarac, Omarska.

25 Q. So there were four.

Page 2793

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You worked in the Prijedor police station,

3 the central station, until when?

4 A. I worked until April 1992. The 10th of

5 April, 1992, in fact.

6 Q. Now, you have indicated that you performed

7 duties in public law and order, traffic, and the

8 criminal department. When did you begin to work in the

9 criminal department?

10 A. It was sometime in 1991.

11 Q. Your duties in the public law and order

12 division and the traffic division, what were those

13 duties?

14 A. I worked in an area, a region, as we referred

15 to it, and my duty was to control all the important

16 buildings and facilities, to work in the area of

17 traffic control, to observe people who were interesting

18 for our service, to maintain public law and order, and

19 things like that.

20 Q. Are you familiar with the position of "patrol

21 sector leader"?

22 A. Yes, I am familiar with it.

23 Q. What did that position entail? What duties?

24 A. Individuals performing this duty had greater

25 responsibility, because those individuals would be

Page 2794

1 directly in charge of the region that this covered.

2 Q. This would be a geographic region?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Within this region, how many villages could

5 be included?

6 A. Depending on the region and how many

7 villages, but usually five or six villages would

8 comprise one region.

9 Q. Now, you've said the person who had this

10 person would be directly in charge of the region. What

11 do you mean? Directly in charge in what ways? What

12 duties would they have to perform?

13 A. Everything that happened in the area. All

14 reports coming in, he'd have to deal with them. That

15 person would be in charge of investigating matters, for

16 example, on the basis of the reports. One of the

17 functions would be, for instance, if a citizen wanted

18 to have a permit issued for firearms, for example, then

19 the number one man of that sector would make the

20 decision whether that citizen could be granted a

21 permit, whether he complied with all the stipulated

22 conditions for carrying a firearm.

23 Q. Was it typical that a patrol sector leader

24 would have one or more subordinates?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2795

1 Q. Now, based on your training in Sarajevo and

2 your experience as a police officer beginning in 1984,

3 did the police in the former Yugoslavia have written

4 rules or guidelines for proper procedure and conduct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How detailed were these guidelines or rules?

7 A. It was very detailed and regulated the way in

8 which the public security service was run.

9 Q. What kinds of police duties or procedures

10 would be covered by these rules or guidelines?

11 A. The duties, rights, and obligations of the

12 officer were specified in great detail.

13 Q. This covered a variety of situations?

14 A. Yes, it did.

15 Q. Did these guidelines also cover the

16 responsibilities of superiors?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were regular or active-duty police officers

19 required to be familiar with these duties and

20 responsibilities?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were they required to be familiar with these

23 rules and guidelines?

24 A. Yes, that was the right and duty of each and

25 every one.

Page 2796

1 Q. Now, during the time that you worked in the

2 Prijedor Police Department, what was the ethnic

3 composition of the Prijedor Police Department?

4 A. In Prijedor, there were Serb, Muslim,

5 Croatian.

6 Q. Was there any group that had a majority in

7 the Prijedor Police Department?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who?

10 A. The Serbs.

11 Q. In 1992, beginning in January of 1992 up

12 until you left the police department on the 10th of

13 April of 1992, how would you characterise the

14 relationship between non-Serbs and Serb police officers

15 in opstina Prijedor?

16 A. That period -- did you say up until 1992? I

17 apologise.

18 Q. I'm sorry. From January of 1992 until the

19 10th of April of 1992, when you left the Prijedor

20 Police Department.

21 A. A lot had changed compared to the previous

22 period.

23 Q. What changes had you noticed?

24 A. There were great changes in the behaviour of

25 individuals.

Page 2797

1 Q. What kind of behaviour did you observe that

2 had changed?

3 A. Well, quite simply, it wasn't what it used to

4 be.

5 Q. In what way? Can you assist us in that?

6 A. Well, quite simply, some things that were in

7 the air proved to be true. The relationships were not

8 what they were before. These people had organised

9 themselves far ahead of time; that is to say, they had

10 their organisation. There were plans; plans existed.

11 Q. Who had their organisation? Who are you

12 talking about by "these people" and "they"?

13 A. I think this was organised by the people at

14 the top, their top.

15 Q. What group of people are you talking about?

16 What ethnicity?

17 A. The Serbs.

18 Q. In 1992, while you were still working for the

19 Prijedor Police Department, who was the chief of

20 police?

21 A. Hasan Talundzic.

22 Q. What was his ethnic group?

23 A. A Muslim.

24 Q. Now, if you know, after the Serb takeover of

25 Prijedor on the 30th of April, who was the chief of

Page 2798

1 police?

2 A. Simo Drljaca.

3 Q. What was his ethnicity?

4 A. A Serb.

5 Q. Before you left the police, before the 10th

6 of April of 1992, did you know a man by the name of

7 Dzenadija who worked in the Prijedor SUP?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was his position in the Prijedor SUP?

10 A. He had various functions. I think that at

11 the end he was responsible for the reserve police

12 force.

13 Q. Was he a regular policeman, or did he hold a

14 position of higher authority?

15 A. He held a higher position; he was one of the

16 leaders, leading officers.

17 Q. On the 10th of April, why did you leave the

18 police force?

19 A. Quite simply, everything was clear to me by

20 then.

21 Q. In what way?

22 A. Well, the information that I had and what

23 would be coming.

24 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, it's 12.50. Do

25 you wish to take a break at this time?

Page 2799

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

2 Ms. Hollis. I think that the time has come for a very

3 welcomed break. So let us have a half-hour break.

4 The meeting is adjourned.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

8 you may continue --

9 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] -- as soon

11 as that is possible.

12 Please be seated.

13 Now, Ms. Hollis.

14 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Sir, before the break you were testifying

16 about your leaving the Prijedor Police Department on

17 the 10th of April of 1992. After you left the Prijedor

18 Police Department, do you recall attending a police

19 meeting in Prijedor?

20 A. Yes, I do remember.

21 Q. Do you recall, was this meeting held before

22 or after the Serb takeover of Prijedor on the 30th of

23 April?

24 A. After the takeover.

25 Q. Who called this meeting?

Page 2800

1 A. The Serb Crisis Staff.

2 Q. Who attended this meeting?

3 A. The meeting was attended by somebody I didn't

4 know, but he was introduced as a minister of the Serb

5 Republic for Internal Affairs matters; then the

6 president of the SDS, Simo Miskovic; then Commander

7 Dule Jankovic, and others.

8 Q. You say Commander Dule Jankovic. Dule

9 Jankovic was commander of what?

10 A. He was commander of the public security

11 station in Prijedor.

12 Q. If you know, what was his ethnicity?

13 A. A Serb.

14 Q. Now, in addition to these people and

15 yourself, who else attended this meeting?

16 A. Policemen of non-Serb ethnicity were invited

17 to the meeting.

18 Q. What was the purpose of this meeting? What

19 was the purpose of this meeting?

20 A. I hear you saying what you're saying but I'm

21 not getting the translation. Now I hear it.

22 Q. Let me repeat my question. What was the

23 purpose of this meeting?

24 A. The purpose of this meeting was the signing

25 of loyalty.

Page 2801

1 Q. Who had to sign loyalty?

2 A. The Croats and Muslims.

3 Q. What do you mean --

4 A. The policemen.

5 Q. What do you mean when they had to sign

6 loyalty? What did they have to agree to be loyal to?

7 A. We were to have been loyal to the Serb

8 Republic.

9 Q. Was it explained to you what that would mean

10 in terms of the duties you would have to perform?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What would that mean?

13 A. In the first place, it would mean that we

14 would have to sign that loyalty, and by doing so we

15 would belong to the Serb Republic. We would have to

16 wear their insignia and markings.

17 Q. Was it explained to you what would happen if

18 you did not sign this loyalty oath?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Was it your understanding that if you did not

21 sign the oath you would be able to continue your

22 employment?

23 A. I couldn't continue employment automatically,

24 because they said who didn't sign employment would be

25 terminated.

Page 2802

1 Q. Did you sign that oath?

2 A. I did not.

3 Q. Now, on the 31st of May of 1992, were you

4 given an order to turn in your police weapons the next

5 day to the Prijedor Police Station?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you obey that order?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What weapons did you have?

10 A. I had personal firearms, an automatic rifle,

11 and a pistol.

12 Q. So this was the 1st of June that you went to

13 the Prijedor Police Station and surrendered your

14 weapons?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you allowed to leave the Prijedor Police

17 Station once you had surrendered those weapons?

18 A. No. No, I was not.

19 Q. What happened to you after you surrendered

20 those weapons?

21 A. I was searched immediately, the objects I had

22 on me were seized, and I was taken upstairs to the

23 crime department for interrogation.

24 Q. Were you held in the police department

25 overnight?

Page 2803

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the next day, were you taken to Omarska

3 camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, how were you transported to Omarska

6 camp?

7 A. By bus.

8 Q. Were there any other detainees on the bus

9 with you?

10 A. No. I was alone.

11 Q. Were there any other people on the bus with

12 you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who were these people?

15 A. The so-called interrogators and employees of

16 the crime department from Prijedor.

17 Q. The crime department from the Prijedor

18 police?

19 A. Yes, inspectors.

20 Q. When you say "so-called interrogators," what

21 do you mean?

22 A. Later I saw and learnt that these were people

23 who were doing the interrogations in the Omarska camp,

24 and that is why I used that term.

25 Q. What was the ethnicity of these people?

Page 2804

1 A. They were Serbs.

2 Q. Now, when you were taken from Prijedor to

3 Omarska, did you see anything unusual along the route?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. What did you see?

6 A. As we were driving, I was on the right-hand

7 side, next to the window, and I noticed corpses placed

8 in the form of a cross.

9 Q. These corpses placed in the form of a cross,

10 did you observe injuries on their bodies?

11 A. Well, this was, for me, an eternity because I

12 couldn't believe what I saw. But I could see well that

13 the head was missing off one body and the head was

14 attached to another body, and then there was an extra

15 hand, and it was a horrific sight.

16 Q. What clothing, if any, were these corpses

17 wearing?

18 A. They were all civilians.

19 Q. What reaction, if any, did the interrogators

20 have to these corpses along the road?

21 A. Everything was normal. I tried to bite my

22 tongue but I thought to my myself, this is not

23 possible. I was quite free to look left and right and

24 in front of me. I didn't notice anything unusual on

25 them, no change.

Page 2805

1 Q. This area where you saw the corpses, if you

2 know, what was the ethnic composition of that area?

3 A. The ethnic composition, the area was Serb,

4 the area of Omarska.

5 Q. So this was at Omarska where you saw these

6 corpses.

7 A. Yes, in Omarska.

8 Q. How close to the camp was it that you saw

9 these corpses?

10 A. It's rather hard for me to tell. I can tell

11 you very approximately. But it wasn't far; it was very

12 close to the camp. Maybe 500 metres away or something

13 like that. I can't be more precise because everything

14 was horrific, and very soon after that we arrived at

15 the camp.

16 Q. Now, before you arrived at the camp, as you

17 approached the camp, do you recall seeing a fire?

18 A. Yes. On the left-hand side, as we were

19 driving, so I turned to look the other way so as not to

20 look at these bodies. I did see some fire.

21 Q. When you saw this fire, was there anything

22 unusual or particular that you also noticed?

23 A. There was a stench, the stench of human

24 flesh. It was nauseating.

25 Q. Did you ever smell such a stench while you

Page 2806

1 were in Omarska camp?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What circumstance was it that you smelled

4 this similar stench?

5 A. A man whose hands were set on fire, Ferid

6 Sikiric, and the smell was similar because the wounds

7 were fresh. It's that same stench, the stench of human

8 flesh.

9 Q. Did you know Ferid Sikiric?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. What was his ethnicity?

12 A. He was a Muslim.

13 Q. Do you know where he was from?

14 A. He's from the village of Hambarine.

15 Q. How long were you detained in Omarska camp?

16 A. Until the camp was disbanded, which means the

17 beginning of August. Until the last day.

18 Q. While you were detained at the Omarska camp,

19 where were you held in the camp?

20 A. I was held on the so-called pista, on the

21 maintenance building, in the "white house." At night,

22 sometimes, or rather quite frequently, we were taken to

23 sleep in the canteen, so I was there too.

24 Q. Now, when you say "the maintenance building,"

25 was that also referred to as the hangar?

Page 2807

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You indicated that you spent at least some

3 time in the "white house." How long were you in the

4 "white house"? How many occasions?

5 A. I spent one night in the "white house."

6 Q. What room were you in in the "white house"?

7 A. When you go into the "white house," as far as

8 I can recollect, the room was to the left.

9 Q. Were there other people in this room?

10 A. Yes, there were.

11 Q. Did you know any of them?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was the ethnic group of the people you

14 knew?

15 A. They were Muslims.

16 Q. What was the condition of the room you were

17 in?

18 A. It was dreadful. There was blood; there was

19 this stench. People were beaten up, in very bad

20 shape. One person was covered with maggots on his

21 body.

22 Q. Did you know who that person was?

23 A. It was a young man. After I learnt; at the

24 time I didn't know what his name was. I know that

25 Dr. Eso Hodzic undertook some surgery but with very

Page 2808

1 primitive methods, he had no instruments; with a little

2 knife, that's all he had.

3 Q. This doctor that you mentioned, was he a

4 detainee in the camp as well?

5 A. Yes, he was detained in the camp.

6 Q. Regarding the camp personnel, did you know

7 any of those camp personnel before you were brought to

8 Omarska camp?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Who did you know from before?

11 A. I knew Miroslav Kvocka, Mladjo Radic, Zeljko

12 Meakic, and almost all the investigators, the

13 interrogators, the people who used to work with me in

14 the same service.

15 Q. How did you know Kvocka?

16 A. Kvocka was a colleague of mine from work.

17 Q. How long had you known him?

18 A. I'd known him for a long time. He graduated

19 a little earlier than me in Sarajevo, like me. We

20 would see each other frequently at meetings, work

21 meetings, so I knew him well.

22 Q. How did you know Zeljko Meakic?

23 A. I knew Zeljko Meakic even better because we

24 spent three years together in Sarajevo.

25 Q. And Radic, how did you know Radic?

Page 2809

1 A. Radic is also a colleague of ours; he is

2 older than we are. But I knew him from work too.

3 Q. How long had you known him?

4 A. For a long time. I met him in person when I

5 arrived in Prijedor to take up employment.

6 Q. Did you know him by any nickname?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. What was that nickname?

9 A. Krkan.

10 Q. Now, on the 2nd of June, when you arrived at

11 Omarska, where did you first go?

12 A. For interrogation, to the administration

13 building.

14 Q. What floor of the administration building?

15 A. It was the first floor of the administration

16 building.

17 Q. Did the interrogators go up to that first

18 floor as well?

19 A. Yes, they all went there.

20 Q. Did you see what room they went into?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Now, when you first were taken to the first

23 floor of the administration building, were you held in

24 the hallway?

25 A. Yes, they left me in the hallway.

Page 2810

1 Q. About how long were you held in the hallway?

2 A. I was there from 10.00, 10.30, until I was

3 taken in for interrogation. But it was quite a long

4 time.

5 Q. During this time you were in the hallway,

6 what sounds, if any, did you hear coming from rooms up

7 on this first floor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did you hear?

10 A. There were terrible screams uttered by people

11 who were being taken in for interrogation.

12 Q. While you were in the hallway, did you

13 recognise anyone coming into the hallway?

14 A. Yes, I did recognise some in the hallway.

15 Q. Who was that?

16 A. Miroslav Kvocka and Zeljko Meakic.

17 Q. Where were they coming from?

18 A. They were coming from the room into which the

19 interrogators had entered when we arrived.

20 Q. Now, did you see them come into the hallway

21 before, during, or after you heard these terrible

22 sounds?

23 A. They were there when the sounds were heard;

24 they were in that room. They left the room; those

25 screams continued, the beatings continued in the rooms,

Page 2811

1 in the corridor. They passed through that way; they

2 were present there.

3 Q. What did Miroslav Kvocka do when he came into

4 the hallway?

5 A. He passed without -- ignoring me.

6 THE INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon.

7 A. He passed as if he never noticed me.

8 MS. HOLLIS:

9 Q. What did Zeljko Meakic do?

10 A. He came up to me.

11 Q. Did you have a conversation with him?

12 A. Yes, very briefly.

13 Q. Did he explain to you why you were in Omarska

14 camp?

15 A. No. He just gave me a cigarette.

16 MS. HOLLIS: May I ask the witness be shown

17 Exhibit 3/77B, that is, the diagram of the first floor

18 of the administration building.

19 Q. Would you please look at that diagram, and

20 then would you please use the pointer and would you

21 show the Judges the hallway that you were in when you

22 were taken up to the first floor.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. You're moving your pointer along B8; is that

25 correct?

Page 2812

1 A. Yes, that is the corridor.

2 Q. Now, would you show the Judges the room into

3 which the interrogators went.

4 A. The largest room on the left; it is the room

5 marked B1.

6 Q. Could you point to the room from which Zeljko

7 Meakic and Miroslav Kvocka came.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. You're also pointing to B1; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. They came out of that room.

11 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you. If you could

12 retrieve the exhibit.

13 Q. Now, you indicated that for a period of time

14 while you were in Omarska you stayed on the pista. How

15 long did you stay on the pista?

16 A. Roughly 60 days -- no, sorry, 40 days. About

17 40 days.

18 Q. While you were on the pista, how often, if

19 ever, did you see Kvocka?

20 A. I saw him several times.

21 Q. When you saw him, where would he be?

22 A. I would see him entering or coming out of the

23 administration building or when the shifts were

24 changing.

25 Q. Did you see him during the day and the night?

Page 2813

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you saw him in the camp, what would he

3 wear?

4 A. The so-called camouflage uniform.

5 Q. Camouflage uniform of whom? Of the police or

6 of the military?

7 A. It is the police uniform.

8 Q. Would you describe that uniform for us?

9 A. It's a uniform which differs from normal

10 uniforms which are in one colour. The camouflage

11 uniform has sort of spots on it in different colours;

12 two colours: light blue and dark blue.

13 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have marked an

14 exhibit, it was previously marked 3/22, and we would

15 ask that it be shown to the witness.

16 Would you please first show it to Defence

17 counsel. First show it to Defence counsel, please.

18 Q. Now, would you look at this photograph. Look

19 at that uniform, please, and then if the uniform could

20 be put on the overhead. What is this uniform?

21 A. That is the uniform we are talking about,

22 that he was wearing.

23 Q. Thank you. When you saw Kvocka in the camp,

24 what weapons did he have?

25 A. He had a rifle on him, the so-called

Page 2814

1 pump-action, Pumperica, gun, which he carried like

2 this, in his right hand; and he also had a glove

3 without fingers. You could recognise him by the way he

4 carried this rifle; that is, the people who didn't know

5 him.

6 Q. Now, what was your understanding of his

7 position in Omarska camp?

8 A. He was the first commander of the Omarska

9 camp. The commander, the man who ...

10 Q. Why did you conclude that he was the

11 commander?

12 A. By what I saw, by what I heard, and the third

13 reason, the person who told me everything.

14 Q. This person who told you everything, what was

15 his position in the camp?

16 A. That person had the function of some sort of

17 external security guard.

18 Q. What did he tell you about Kvocka's position

19 in the camp?

20 A. That he was the number one man.

21 Q. Now, you said you also concluded that from

22 what you saw. What did you see to lead you to conclude

23 that he was the commander?

24 A. When shifts were changing, then he would

25 frequently be present, and the shift leaders would be

Page 2815

1 with him and they would address him, and from that I

2 could conclude that he was, indeed, what they said.

3 Also, I wasn't present, but he introduced himself

4 personally as the camp commander.

5 Q. Now, this is what you heard from other

6 detainees; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, I heard that from other detainees.

8 Q. Did you ever see Kvocka present when

9 detainees were abused or called out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How often did you see him present when

12 detainees were abused?

13 A. Several times.

14 Q. Can you tell us about those incidents?

15 A. Well, on one occasion, we were on the pista

16 and he was in front of the administration building.

17 This was during the daytime; I can't remember the time

18 exactly but it was daylight. He was with a number of

19 those guards, standing together in front of the

20 administration building. Then suddenly the order came

21 that we had to lie down; the word used was "Zelijezi,"

22 which meant lie down.

23 Q. What happened after you were ordered to lie

24 down?

25 A. We did. People were not in their proper

Page 2816

1 places, some, and they looked for some room, and I laid

2 down and immediately they came and started beating a

3 man who was lying next to me.

4 Q. Did you know this man?

5 A. Yes, I did know that man personally.

6 Q. Who was that?

7 A. It was an engineer, Ilijaz Drobic.

8 Q. What was his ethnic group?

9 A. He was a Muslim.

10 Q. What happened to Drobic as a result of the

11 beating he received?

12 A. He was killed. He was killed there and left

13 there to lie amongst us.

14 Q. Was there anyone else close to you who was

15 beaten during this incident?

16 A. Yes. Lower down from me a man was lying, I

17 don't remember his surname. I know his first name and

18 where he was from.

19 Q. Where was he from?

20 A. The man is from the village of Hambarine.

21 Q. What was his ethnicity?

22 A. He was Muslim.

23 Q. Do you know what injuries, if any, he

24 suffered as a result of this beating?

25 A. He was killed by the beating, that's for

Page 2817

1 sure.

2 Q. Now, how soon after you saw Kvocka by the

3 administration building, how soon after that did these

4 beatings begin?

5 A. Immediately. He was there. We were allowed

6 to look left and right. There were no orders, and then

7 suddenly the order came. Suddenly. We didn't hear it

8 straight away, and then it was repeated and we threw

9 ourselves to the ground. We had to do that.

10 Q. You said you saw him present on several

11 occasions when people were abused or taken out. You've

12 indicated one such occasion. What other occasions was

13 he present when people were abused or taken out?

14 A. He was present when they brought people to

15 the camp, we could see that from the pista, because

16 when these people would get off the vehicle, they would

17 be beaten.

18 Q. Was he present on any occasion when a person

19 was called out and did not return?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. Who was this person who was called out and

22 didn't return?

23 A. It was Izet Memic. He had a nickname, Puco.

24 Q. What was his ethnic group?

25 A. He was a Muslim.

Page 2818

1 Q. What happened when he was called out?

2 A. When he was called out, Kvocka came with

3 Meakic and another guard, they came to fetch him. The

4 guard called him out and the man got up and went off,

5 and as he was in the group where I was, he did not

6 return. We waited for him to return. This was just

7 before the shift, the evening shift. I can't tell you

8 the exact time but it was in the evening. And the

9 second shift to take over, which would be taking on the

10 night shift, it came to look for him, and then someone

11 said that he had been taken off.

12 There was a man who worked on the maintenance

13 of Omarska, and he came about an hour later -- it was

14 about 8.00 in the evening; he would always come around

15 that time -- and we told him, that is to say, I

16 personally said to him, "Puco is not here. He's gone

17 off." And then he said, "Well, just so long as you're

18 alive and well."

19 Q. Did he say what had happened to Puco?

20 A. He was killed.

21 Q. Who was this person who told you that?

22 A. He was one of the inmates of the camp, Midho

23 Fazlic.

24 Q. You also indicated that you knew Radic prior

25 to coming to the camp. While you were on the pista,

Page 2819

1 how often, if ever, did you see Radic?

2 A. Very often, because he was the man in charge

3 of shift number 3, as it was called. That means he

4 spent 12 hours a day.

5 Q. When you would see him, what would he be

6 doing?

7 A. He was the head of that shift. It was what

8 we called shift number 3.

9 Q. Why do you say that he was the head of that

10 shift?

11 A. He was the leader of the shift.

12 Q. What did you see or hear to make you conclude

13 that he was the leader of that shift?

14 A. First of all, it was the worst shift in the

15 camp. A crime is a crime, but it was worst when his

16 shift was on duty.

17 Q. I want to ask you about your statement that

18 he was the leader of the shift. I'd like you to tell

19 the Judges what you saw or heard that led you to

20 believe he was the leader of that shift?

21 A. Everybody knew that; we all knew it. The man

22 working in security confirmed that, he said, "Yes, he

23 is the leader. He is the leader of that shift."

24 Q. Was there anything about his behaviour or the

25 behaviour of others toward him that led you to that

Page 2820

1 conclusion?

2 A. Yes, of course there was.

3 Q. What?

4 A. He would come with his shift; he would talk

5 to the commander when the shifts were changing. Then

6 he had a room upstairs somewhere in the administration

7 building as well.

8 Q. What did he wear when you saw him in the

9 camp?

10 A. He wore a normal -- a standard police

11 uniform.

12 Q. What weapons, if any, would he have?

13 A. He had a pistol.

14 Q. Did you ever see Radic present when detainees

15 were either beaten or called out?

16 A. He was present.

17 Q. How often would you see him present when

18 detainees were beaten?

19 A. Well, when they were brought in, when they

20 brought the people there, or when they took people off

21 for interrogation.

22 Q. How often was he present when you saw people

23 called out?

24 A. Many times.

25 Q. Did all of these people return who were

Page 2821

1 called out?

2 A. No.

3 Q. The ones who did return, what was their

4 condition when they returned?

5 A. They were in a very serious condition, very

6 bad condition.

7 Q. While you were detained at Omarska, did you

8 ever encounter a person by the name of Prcac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was this a person you knew before coming to

11 the camp?

12 A. Yes, but not very well.

13 Q. How did you know him before you came to

14 Omarska?

15 A. He worked -- that is to say, before, he was a

16 colleague of ours.

17 Q. Now, when did you first see him in Omarska?

18 A. When he came and when he was the so-called

19 third commander of the camp.

20 Q. When you first saw him, where were you?

21 A. We were on the pista. I was on the pista.

22 Q. Were you being held on the pista at that time

23 or were you merely on the pista for that day?

24 A. We were already in the hangar, but there were

25 days when they would take us out again to the pista.

Page 2822

1 Q. When you saw him that day, what was he doing?

2 A. I saw him that day; he had some documents

3 that he was carrying. And there were several of their

4 people there.

5 Q. What was he wearing?

6 A. A uniform.

7 Q. What kind of uniform?

8 A. An army uniform.

9 Q. Was it a regular army uniform from the JNA?

10 A. Yes. That's how I saw him that first time.

11 Q. Now, when you saw him and he was carrying

12 these documents, where did he go?

13 A. He was going in the direction of the "white

14 house."

15 Q. How often after that did you see him in

16 Omarska camp?

17 A. Several times, a couple of times, and

18 afterwards when there was the roll-call and when the

19 camp was disbanded. He was there for a very short time

20 so that ...

21 Q. Now, when there was the roll-call when the

22 camp was disbanded, you said you saw Prcac at that

23 time. What was he doing at that time?

24 A. There was a roll-call; he was calling out the

25 names of people.

Page 2823

1 Q. What weapons, if any, did he have when you

2 saw him?

3 A. A pistol.

4 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that Krkan was the

5 shift leader for the third shift. How many shifts of

6 guards were there?

7 A. There were three shifts.

8 Q. Other than Krkan, did you know any of the

9 shift leaders before you came to the camp?

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. While you were in the camp, did you learn the

12 names of any of these shift leaders?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What were the names of the shift leaders?

15 A. One was called Milojica Kos; I didn't know

16 him. Then there was that other one, Ckalja, Gruban,

17 something like that; I didn't know him before either.

18 Q. You talked a bit about Prcac. You said you

19 didn't see him very often. Was he ever present when

20 people were abused or called out?

21 A. I did not see that.

22 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to the 16th

23 of June, while you were in Omarska. On that date, were

24 you beaten?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2824

1 Q. Do you know whose shift was on duty when you

2 were beaten on that date?

3 A. I think it was shift number 3.

4 Q. Whose shift was that?

5 A. Mladjo Radic's.

6 Q. Who beat you on the 16th of June?

7 A. Dusko Tadic.

8 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic before you were

9 brought to Omarska?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did Dusko Tadic work at Omarska camp?

12 A. He came to Omarska camp.

13 Q. What time of the day was it when this beating

14 occurred?

15 A. It was during the daytime, at about 2.00,

16 2.00 p.m.

17 Q. Where did this beating occur?

18 A. In the administration building, on the first

19 floor.

20 Q. What happened?

21 A. That day was our first official registration

22 day, that is to say, for the detainees. I was standing

23 in a group of 30 people who were on the list, and

24 someone unknown to me called me out and another minor,

25 and we were sent to take out somebody from the first

Page 2825

1 floor.

2 Q. This person you were sent to take out, what

3 was their condition?

4 A. In a very bad condition.

5 Q. What happened when you went to get this

6 person?

7 A. The person, that is, the minor standing next

8 to me was hit and he fell down, and when he came to

9 they sent him back, and then I was beaten.

10 Q. Can you describe what happened when you were

11 beaten?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please?

14 A. I went upstairs and it was my turn. I was

15 beaten. A pipe was put in my mouth. I was hit with a

16 metal bar.

17 Q. Who was doing this?

18 A. Dusko Tadic.

19 Q. What happened after that?

20 A. After that, when I fell down and when I

21 regained consciousness, I was ordered -- he ordered me

22 to hit the person lying down. When we came in, the

23 person was already on the ground. I had no choice.

24 Q. What was the condition of this person that

25 you were forced to hit?

Page 2826

1 A. He was in a catastrophic state. It's very

2 difficult to explain. A dreadful state.

3 Q. What part of his body did you hit him on?

4 A. The head.

5 Q. What was the condition of his head when you

6 hit him?

7 A. I couldn't recognise him, whether it was a

8 man or what it was. It was all smashed up.

9 Q. When you hit him, what did it feel like?

10 A. There was a groan, a cry. The man was still

11 giving out signs of life. It is very difficult to

12 describe the sounds that came from him, and the whole

13 thing. But I had to do it.

14 Q. What happened --

15 A. I was forced to do it.

16 Q. What happened after you hit him?

17 A. I was ordered to go back downstairs, from

18 where I'd come.

19 Q. Now, you said that this beating occurred on

20 the first floor of the restaurant building. Where was

21 it on the first floor? Was it in one of the rooms or

22 was it in the hallway?

23 A. It was in the hallway.

24 Q. What injuries did you suffer as a result of

25 this beating?

Page 2827

1 A. I had very serious injuries. When my wounds

2 cooled down, I couldn't actually keep my head up. Two

3 people had to carry me, I wasn't able to walk, and one

4 of them had to hold my head up. And that's how it was

5 for the first three days afterwards.

6 Q. What parts of your body were injured as a

7 result of this beating?

8 A. My hand and my head.

9 Q. Did you suffer any injuries to your teeth as

10 a result of this beating?

11 A. Yes. Yes. When I say "my head," I mean my

12 teeth as well. They were all -- some of them had

13 been -- I'd lost some of them, and the teeth that

14 remained were pushed back into my gums.

15 Q. Sir, were you ever given any medical care for

16 these injuries?

17 A. No, none at all.

18 Q. Were there any other occasions at the camp

19 when you were beaten?

20 A. Yes, there were.

21 Q. When did these beatings occur?

22 A. Particularly during a visit to the camp.

23 Q. A visit by whom?

24 A. There was a lot of security about then. We

25 were all lined up in rows, we had to sing songs, and

Page 2828

1 after that, we were ordered to go into the kitchen, the

2 canteen, allegedly to go and have some food. At the

3 entrance, in the hallway, they were waiting for us with

4 batons and metal rods and began to beat us. And they

5 had spilt some liquid on the floor, so they made you

6 run and then you would slip and fall over, and this

7 would continue and other people would slip in turn and

8 fall over you.

9 Q. You say "they were waiting." Who was

10 waiting?

11 A. The Serb policemen.

12 Q. The time that you were beaten, did any camp

13 personnel ever intervene to stop those beatings?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, you testified earlier about the

16 existence of very detailed rules and guidelines that

17 govern police behaviour. Did those rules and

18 guidelines govern how prisoners were to be treated by

19 the police?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If, as a policeman, you had to provide

22 security to prisoners in a gaol or a prison, what

23 duties would you have with regard to those prisoners?

24 A. Well, there are precise, specific rules and

25 regulations governing conduct, your conduct towards

Page 2829

1 prisoners.

2 Q. What would that conduct have to include?

3 A. A prisoner also has his rights. The

4 individual has the right to medical assistance, to be

5 given food; they have the right to use the toilet

6 facilities, and all the other rights that prisoners

7 enjoy.

8 Q. Who's responsible to ensure that those

9 prisoners get those rights?

10 A. The leading officer, in keeping with the

11 rules.

12 Q. As to each individual police officer, do they

13 have a duty to provide those rights to those prisoners?

14 A. Yes, they do.

15 Q. What duties, if any, of protection of these

16 prisoners do police officers have?

17 A. The rules and regulations specify our

18 behaviour towards prisoners.

19 Q. What would be your duties to protect

20 prisoners?

21 A. I would have to ensure their safety and

22 security, of the prisoners.

23 Q. Now, if valuables were taken from prisoners,

24 such as money or other valuables, what duties, under

25 the rules and regulations you have talked about, what

Page 2830

1 duties would the police have regarding those

2 valuables?

3 A. A report would be made of the items taken and

4 they would be submitted in three copies which would be

5 signed. The authorising official taking away this

6 property would sign the paper and the person whose

7 property was being taken away would also sign a copy,

8 and one copy would be given to the prisoner and the

9 others would be placed in the archives for the purposes

10 of the service.

11 Q. Regarding the valuables themselves, would

12 they be held for that prisoner?

13 A. Yes, of course, because they are his personal

14 property.

15 Q. Now, under the rules and the guidelines you

16 worked under, what responsibility or what consequence

17 would there be if a police officer violated these

18 duties?

19 A. Once again, the rules and regulations

20 stipulate what happens. He would have to suffer the

21 consequences if his conduct was in opposition to them.

22 Q. Now, as a police officer, if you saw another

23 police officer committing a crime, what would be your

24 obligation?

25 A. It is the right and duty to prevent an

Page 2831

1 individual from performing anything of that kind.

2 Q. This would be true even if the perpetrator

3 were a police officer?

4 A. Yes, because the rules hold true for

5 policemen as well.

6 Q. If you were the superior of police officers

7 and you became aware that your subordinates were

8 committing crimes, what would be your responsibility?

9 A. Well, the rules also regulate what is to be

10 done in such cases. That individual would lose his job

11 automatically, and of course this depended on the crime

12 that he had committed.

13 Q. Now, would the superior have the authority to

14 suspend this person or relieve them of duties pending

15 an investigation?

16 A. Yes. Yes, that would be automatic.

17 Q. Were policemen allowed to drink while they

18 were performing duty?

19 A. No.

20 Q. If other police officers saw a policeman

21 drinking on duty, what would be their duties, what

22 would be their obligation?

23 A. He would have to report him to his

24 superiors.

25 Q. Would a superior be allowed to provide

Page 2832

1 alcohol to policemen who were on duty?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Now, in regard to providing security to gaols

4 or prisons and to prisoners, what rules, if any,

5 existed about the use of firearms?

6 A. Well, the rules and regulations provide for

7 this, and the use of firearms is specified as well.

8 Once again, there are conditions under which the

9 authorised personnel may use firearms; this would be

10 stipulated, where and when this is allowed.

11 Q. Under what conditions would you be able to

12 shoot a prisoner?

13 A. Once again, there are the rules and

14 regulations governing the use of firearms when

15 prisoners are concerned.

16 Q. Under what kind of general circumstances

17 would you be allowed to shoot a prisoner?

18 A. If the individual -- that is to say, the

19 authorised individual is duty-bound to use firearms to

20 prevent the execution of a crime and to refute an

21 attack; that is to say, if somebody else's life is in

22 danger, the life of another citizen or his own life,

23 then he may resort to the use of firearms.

24 Q. If a prisoner was ordered to sit down and a

25 prisoner refused to do so and stood up and moved

Page 2833

1 forward and this prisoner were unarmed, based on your

2 training and experience and the guidelines you worked

3 under, would the police be able to shoot this prisoner?

4 A. No. No, there would be no grounds for that.

5 Q. If a superior were present at the time, what

6 would be the superior's duties?

7 A. If the superior were present and something

8 like that took place, he would have to prevent it. But

9 if the superior, according to the rules which specify

10 this, that is to say, if the superior aids and abets a

11 crime to take place, then he is equally responsible for

12 the crime.

13 Q. Now, if the superior were not present but the

14 superior learned about this incident, what would be the

15 superior's responsibilities?

16 A. Once again, the rules specify this. If there

17 is the doubt that somebody -- the suspicion that

18 somebody has committed a crime, then it is the

19 superior's duty to bring an investigation against him.

20 Q. Now, you were in the camp from the 2nd of

21 June until the beginning of August. Based on what you

22 observed and what happened to you, was the behaviour of

23 the police officers in the Omarska camp consistent with

24 the rules and guidelines you've talked about?

25 A. No.

Page 2834

1 Q. Now, you've talked about people you

2 identified as having positions of superior authority in

3 the camp. Based on your training and your experience

4 and these guidelines you talked about, the behaviour of

5 these superiors that you observed, was that in

6 accordance with the rules and guidelines?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, you talked about this visit to the

9 camp. Do you know who it was who was visiting the

10 camp?

11 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

12 Q. Who was it who was visiting the camp?

13 A. It was a politician, Vojo Kupresanin from

14 Banja Luka.

15 Q. Did you observe anything to indicate to you

16 that there were representatives from the federal

17 government as well?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did you observe to lead you to that

20 conclusion?

21 A. The number plates on the car.

22 Q. What was significant about the numbers on the

23 plates?

24 A. The number 9.

25 Q. What does that mean?

Page 2835

1 A. Vehicles belonging to the federal SUP had

2 number plates beginning with a 9.

3 Q. Now, when you left Omarska, where were you

4 taken?

5 A. We were taken to Manjaca.

6 Q. How long were you held at Manjaca?

7 A. Until the camp was disbanded.

8 Q. Where did you go from Manjaca?

9 A. We went to Croatia.

10 Q. What was your physical condition when you

11 were taken to Omarska?

12 A. I was in good physical condition when I went

13 there.

14 Q. When you left Omarska, how would you describe

15 your physical condition?

16 A. Extremely poor. I was seriously ill because

17 of everything that I had experienced there, and I was

18 given no assistance. I lost a lot of weight. And

19 generally my condition was very, very poor.

20 Q. Did you have to undergo any operations as a

21 result of the injuries you received in Omarska camp?

22 A. Yes, several times.

23 Q. What kind of operations?

24 A. My first surgical intervention was in Croatia

25 with respect to my teeth. Then in another country I

Page 2836

1 had two other operations, once again dental ones, and

2 another operation on my head.

3 Q. What long-term effects, if any, have you

4 suffered, physical, psychological, or emotional, as a

5 result of what was done to you in Omarska and what you

6 experienced there?

7 A. Well, I have serious difficulties. How shall

8 I put it? I have received treatment from different

9 psychiatrists, the treatment is still ongoing, and my

10 situation is very serious. I still have this fear in

11 me; it comes and goes, anxiety.

12 Q. Now, you have testified that you knew Kvocka,

13 Radic, and Prcac before you went to Omarska and that

14 you saw them in the Omarska camp. Do you believe you

15 would be able to recognise them today?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you look around the courtroom and tell

18 us if you see Kvocka in the courtroom.

19 A. Yes, I can see him.

20 Q. Can you tell us where he's seated?

21 A. He's sitting between Radic and the other one,

22 the one with his hands like this, with a red pencil in

23 his hands.

24 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would note a

25 positive identification of Kvocka.

Page 2837

1 Q. Now, you indicated he was sitting next to

2 Radic. From where you are seated, is Radic to his left

3 or his right? I'm talking -- excuse me. To your left

4 or your right?

5 A. On my left.

6 Q. What is Radic wearing?

7 A. Well, he's got a blue suit and a tie. He's

8 lost a little weight but ...

9 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we would note a

10 positive identification of Radic.

11 Q. And Prcac, would you look around the

12 courtroom and tell us if Prcac is present in the

13 courtroom.

14 A. The one with the yellow tie.

15 Q. Where is he seated?

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. You have to explain it rather than point.

18 Where is he seated?

19 A. Over there.

20 Q. All right. Where over there? If you look at

21 the direction you are pointing, there's the row where

22 you identified Kvocka and Radic. Where is Prcac in

23 relation to that row? Is he in the same row?

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, if

25 you need to get up to have a good look, you may do so,

Page 2838

1 because there are obstacles in your path.

2 A. It's that man there.

3 MS. HOLLIS:

4 Q. What is he wearing? You mentioned a yellow

5 tie. What is he wearing? What else?

6 A. A suit.

7 Q. What colour is the suit?

8 A. Light.

9 Q. The person that you are looking at, what

10 facial hair, if any, does that person have?

11 A. He hasn't got any facial hair.

12 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we would note a

13 failure to identify Prcac.

14 A. Just a moment, please. No. No. Just a

15 moment, please.

16 Q. Witness, that's fine. Please be seated.

17 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, we would note a

18 failure to identify Prcac.

19 A. I've got everything mixed up now. I

20 apologise.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

22 our objection is that the identification is over.

23 A. Yes, I have, indeed, made a ...

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There is

25 the cross-examination and the questions of Judges.

Page 2839

1 Ms. Hollis already said that the identification is

2 over, but if the witness wants to say something.

3 There's no problem, Witness. Just a moment.

4 We haven't finished yet, Witness. We're just going to

5 have a break.

6 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have concluded

7 our direct examination. We would note for the record,

8 however, that based on the discussions that we had

9 yesterday in the Status Conference, the Prosecution has

10 foregone questioning into various areas that would be

11 relevant to the common or jurisdictional elements.

12 Should that evidence become relevant to our case and

13 necessary, the Prosecution would reserve the right to

14 recall this witness for those purposes, Your Honour.

15 Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Thank you very much, Ms. Hollis.

18 Witness, we are going to have a break until

19 tomorrow, and tomorrow you will be answering questions

20 by Defence lawyers. Mr. Krstan Simic will begin with

21 the cross-examination.

22 That's enough for today. We will be here

23 tomorrow, at 9.30.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 2.42 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

Page 2840

1 the 8th day of June, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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