Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2878

1 Friday, 9 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

6 seated.

7 Good morning to everybody. Good morning,

8 ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical

9 booth, to the interpreters; good morning to the legal

10 assistants and court reporters, the Prosecution and the

11 Defence.

12 I see that Mr. Jovan Simic has something to

13 communicate. Mr. Jovan Simic, please go ahead.

14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

15 Your Honour. I apologise for raising this matter,

16 which I think is probably a matter for the Status

17 Conference, but in view of the urgency, I should like

18 to present it now.

19 The fact is the following: My client,

20 Dragoljub Prcac, is in a poor state of health. There

21 are problems which he has had from the beginning of the

22 trial. He has very strong headaches, and it has

23 already been ascertained that he has a very high blood

24 pressure.

25 We have tabled a request to the Registrar to

Page 2879

1 enable him to have a medical specialist examination,

2 and we should like to request that in view of his

3 health situation and his age, and to avoid any untoward

4 effects which could slow up these legal proceedings, to

5 enable him to be taken out of the court earlier than

6 the end of the day.

7 The Trial Chamber has tabled a decision that

8 Mr. Prcac should be taken with the other accused,

9 transported with them. This means that he has a

10 problem. He has to wait for two to two and a half

11 hours after the trial proceedings and he is not able to

12 take his medicines and have his therapy and a rest on

13 time, and then he is brought to the Tribunal two to two

14 and a half hours earlier.

15 So I should like to prevail upon this Trial

16 Chamber to either revoke that ruling -- and as we are

17 hearing witnesses, then I don't see that this could be

18 an impediment -- or in some other way to influence the

19 Registrar, because we have tabled a written request

20 along those lines, to enable Mr. Prcac to have his

21 health treated, and this would enable him to attend the

22 court proceedings.

23 Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

25 the ruling was not a ruling of this Trial Chamber but

Page 2880

1 it was a ruling by the Registrar, and I am going to ask

2 the registrar to take note of what Mr. Simic has just

3 said so that steps can be taken to rectify matters.

4 Would you take note of that, Madam Registrar.


6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

7 very much, Mr. Jovan Simic, for bringing that to our

8 attention, this problem, and I'm sure that the

9 Registrar will do everything in her power to remedy the

10 matter. As I say, this is not a ruling of this Trial

11 Chamber, but the Trial Chamber will be making its

12 recommendation along those lines to the Registrar.

13 Having said that, I think that we can have

14 the witness brought in. Is that not so, Madam Hollis?

15 Just one moment, please, Mr. Usher. I think

16 Mr. O'Sullivan would like to say a few words. Let us

17 hear Mr. O'Sullivan first.

18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I note that

19 Judge Riad is not on the bench. We're into day five of

20 his absence. My understanding is that his absence was

21 due to the Celebici appeal which has finished. I

22 believe the hearings are through in Celebici and Judge

23 Riad is still not back. We're now into day five, as I

24 said, of his absence, and under Rule 15 bis (A),

25 paragraph (A) contemplates a three-day absence and

Page 2881

1 we're now into day five.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You

3 are right in so much as the fact that Judge Fouad Riad

4 is not present here in the courtroom, that is quite

5 right. We were working within the frameworks of Rule

6 71 and not 15 bis, and this Rule does provide for

7 various illnesses, that is to say, urgent personal

8 business or illness. If these are not the reasons,

9 then we propose that the parties function under Rule

10 71. The other applied to Rule 15 bis.

11 You are quite right that the Celebici

12 proceedings are not ongoing today, but as you know,

13 they have not been completed yet, and I think they will

14 be continuing into next week. So Judge Fouad Riad, as

15 we all note, is not here; that is quite right. I did

16 not think of that myself.

17 Either we can continue under the same terms

18 that we have functioned in the past, that is to say,

19 governed by Rule 71, or we cannot go ahead. Those are

20 the two options, and I now put them to you. Do you

21 agree that we continue under the same terms that we did

22 in the previous days, the past week? Can we continue?

23 If not, then we'll have to adjourn. What is your

24 position?

25 Let us hear Ms. Hollis.

Page 2882

1 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution has

2 no objection to continue to operate in the fashion we

3 have been operating the other four days of this week.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What about

5 the Defence?

6 Mr. Krstan Simic has the floor.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

8 we gave our agreement before the beginning of this

9 trial, but I have not had a chance to consult the

10 Defence team of Mr. Kos. The last row agrees that we

11 continue with the proceedings without the presence of

12 Judge Fouad Riad, as we have been doing for the past

13 few days, but I would like to hear the opinions of the

14 Kos Defence team.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Are

16 there any objections? As you know, the Judges' work

17 does not only include work in the courtroom. They have

18 other obligations to attend to as well. But let us

19 hear the Defence. Do they have any objections to

20 make? I see no -- Mr. O'Sullivan.

21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We do not object to

22 proceeding under Rule 71. However, for the record, we

23 state that it is of fundamental importance to have a

24 full Bench, so that all the Judges are present during

25 the trial. And circumstances arise, but we urge the

Page 2883

1 Trial Chamber to make that the exception. And that is

2 our position, that it becomes problematic as we go more

3 and more -- further and further without a full Bench.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any

5 case, Mr. O'Sullivan, I would like to say that if this

6 is a fundamental objection not to continue -- I think

7 this is an exception. Now, would you like to continue

8 nonetheless, or not?

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We will continue. We will

10 accede to that request and repeat that we urge that the

11 full Bench return.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour, but

15 could we have a clarification for the record? Is

16 Defence counsel saying that they are acceding or that

17 they are, in fact, consenting to this? There is a

18 connotation that is different, and we want the record

19 clear so that it does not become an appellate issue.

20 So if we could have an unequivocal response, we would

21 certainly appreciate that.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So with

23 that nuance, do you accept -- do you accept and

24 accede -- do you accept? You agree and you accept?

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's correct, Your Honour.

Page 2884

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

2 for your understanding. As I said from the beginning

3 of the week, the Trial Chamber proposed this manner of

4 proceeding to expedite matters, and having said that,

5 we are going to continue, as all parties are in

6 agreement and accept this.

7 Let me say that I would like to thank you,

8 Mr. O'Sullivan, for drawing our attention to that

9 matter.

10 I think that we are now able to have the

11 witness shown in. Would the usher please do so.

12 [The witness entered court]


14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

15 morning, witness. Can you hear me properly?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes. I hear you very well,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you feel

19 better today?

20 THE WITNESS: I feel excellent, thank you.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 You're going to continue answering the questions put to

23 you by Mr. Krstan Simic.

24 Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

Page 2885

1 Your Honour.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic: [Cont'd]

3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mrkalj. We're going to

4 continue and try and be a bit more efficient.

5 During your testimony you frequently made

6 mention of the rules regulating conduct for members of

7 the police force in performing their duties.

8 A. Yes, I did speak about that.

9 Q. Could you tell the Court, please, the full

10 name of that legal act, those rules and regulations?

11 A. The rules are the rules of conduct and the

12 performance of duty for the public security service.

13 Q. Thank you. When you worked in the public

14 security station of Prijedor, did you have an

15 appointment paper, that is to say, appointing you to

16 your job, work post?

17 A. When I got my job, I received a decision on

18 employment.

19 Q. Over time, did you receive any new decisions,

20 new assignments or duties?

21 In order to speed matters up and to help you,

22 I should like the usher to show a document to the

23 witness. It is Exhibit D8/1, and the English version

24 is D8A/1.

25 Mr. Mrkalj, you have a decision before you

Page 2886

1 which was brought in at the beginning of 1990, when the

2 transformation of the OSUP took place. Did you get a

3 decision like this yourself?

4 A. May I read through this decision?

5 Q. Yes, please do. Go ahead.

6 A. I have read it.

7 Q. Did you receive a decision of this kind as to

8 your employment and duties?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you tell the Court what your actual

11 work post was, that is, the professional formulation

12 that we have here?

13 A. As far as I remember, in those decisions, the

14 decision said that I was a policeman, a security

15 technician, assigned to the Prijedor Police Station.

16 Q. Can you tell us: In the police service, what

17 organ or which individual was in charge of distributing

18 the employees in the police?

19 A. How do you mean?

20 Q. Well, the structure of the police, from the

21 police chief downwards.

22 A. You mean as far as the work posts were

23 concerned or the assignments?

24 Q. Well, yes. Who gave the members of the

25 police force their assignments?

Page 2887

1 A. I received my assignment in the secretariat

2 by a decision of the ministry. Now, what actual duties

3 I would have, my concrete duties, my commander, the

4 commander of the police station, that was his job to

5 assign me actual tasks and duties.

6 Q. So the ministry determines your work post; is

7 that correct?

8 A. No. You didn't understand me. The ministry

9 sends me to the police station of Prijedor. That is my

10 decision. I was assigned to the police station in

11 Prijedor.

12 Q. Yes. So that is your status; your work post

13 was there?

14 A. I was assigned to assignments and duties

15 within the Prijedor local police station.

16 Q. Well, the ministry didn't tell you that you

17 would be a technician for security?

18 A. But I already was. That was the training

19 that I received at school.

20 Q. You worked in matters of security.

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And then you got a decision. You were given

23 a written decision saying that you would be working as

24 a policeman in security matters.

25 A. Well, that was work that is part of my job.

Page 2888

1 Q. Well, thank you. Yes.

2 You also spoke about disciplinary measures,

3 and you passed over that very speedily.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We can have

5 this document returned now.

6 Q. In the legal system from which the two of us

7 have come, did different disciplinary -- was

8 disciplinary action taken in different ways? Did

9 different disciplinary procedure exist?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. For example, disciplinary action within a

12 firm, a company, a public security station? Did they

13 differ?

14 A. Well, disciplinary action was taken.

15 Q. What about disciplinary action with

16 disciplinary courts before magistrates? Were cases

17 filed there, and the basic criminal courts, depending

18 on the seriousness of the crime in question?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You said that policemen too, just like every

21 other individual, were subject to disciplinary

22 responsibility and disciplinary proceedings if they

23 committed an offence violating one of the laws and

24 regulations, depending on the competencies of the

25 different organs we mentioned; is that correct?

Page 2889

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let us now speak about disciplinary action

3 within the police organisation, the public security

4 station. Were you ever a member of any disciplinary

5 committee during your work in the police force?

6 A. No, I was not.

7 Q. During your work in the police force, was any

8 disciplinary action taken against you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In disciplinary action and procedure in the

11 police force, who is authorised to punish a policeman

12 for an offence of any kind and violating his duties as

13 a member of the police force?

14 A. As far as I remember, there was a set

15 procedure.

16 Q. Who decides on punishment? Who brings in the

17 decision to punish a policeman when this procedure,

18 this prosecuting procedure, and disciplinary procedure

19 is put into force?

20 A. Could you explain what you mean by "punish,"

21 "punishment"? What do you mean?

22 Q. Well, let me put it this way: There's a

23 disciplinary action brought against a policeman

24 because, for example, he was drunk when on duty. It

25 was ascertained that he was drunk and he is punished

Page 2890

1 for that because he has violated the rules which you so

2 keenly stipulated. So who is the individual who says

3 that that member of the police force is guilty, and for

4 being guilty he is punished in such a way with a

5 disciplinary measure? Who takes that decision in the

6 police force?

7 A. Well, in case of an offence of that kind,

8 when the facts are ascertained, it is the superior, the

9 superior officer who decides on punishment.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Asked by Ms. Hollis

11 about a concrete, specific question, where somebody was

12 killed as a result of an action, according to the

13 standards that prevailed in the police force and the

14 legal system, did that imply -- a man is dead; does

15 that imply criminal proceedings or a disciplinary

16 action?

17 A. No, criminal proceedings.

18 Q. So for violations of that kind, criminal

19 proceedings are initiated; that is what you said.

20 Thank you very much.

21 Let us go back for a moment to your own

22 experiences in those days. You said that you stopped

23 working in the police, or rather the public security

24 station, to be quite precise in our terminology, on the

25 10th of April, 1992.

Page 2891

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As far as I remember, the chief of the public

3 security station at the time was Hasan Talundzic. Did

4 you in any way inform any of your superiors that you no

5 longer wanted to work in the police? Did you submit a

6 request for termination of employment?

7 A. I personally remember what I said. I said

8 that on the 10th I stopped working, which means that I

9 appeared at the station and said that I was on

10 sick-leave, and after that I no longer appeared at

11 work.

12 Q. Did you officially open sick-leave with the

13 competent medical institution?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. According to the rules and customs in force

16 at the end of the month of April, did you bring to your

17 office medical reports to justify your absence and for

18 your salary to be calculated accordingly?

19 A. I didn't bring any certificate. From the

20 moment I went on sick-leave, I was on sick-leave, so

21 should there be any changes in the sense of me

22 recovering, I would automatically have to come to

23 work. But from that date on, I was registered as being

24 on sick-leave.

25 Q. If I understood you correctly, and I think I

Page 2892

1 did, it follows from what you said that in the system

2 in force at the time, it was sufficient to say, "I'm on

3 sick-leave" and you're on sick-leave, without having to

4 bring any kind of certificate or report that goes into

5 your files certifying this sickness.

6 A. I did bring a certificate and handed it in

7 regarding the beginning of my sick-leave.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. From the 10th of

9 April on, you kept your personal weapons, an automatic

10 rifle and a pistol; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know a policeman called Aziz

13 Aliskovic?

14 A. Yes, I knew him.

15 Q. Was he a member of the public security

16 station of Prijedor?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did he work in one of the departments, or was

19 he attached to the central police station?

20 A. As far as I can remember, he worked in the

21 Ljubija police station department.

22 Q. Very well. Do you have any information

23 saying that Mr. Aliskovic participated in an incident

24 in the second half of May in the Prijedor

25 municipality?

Page 2893

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was it?

3 A. It was an incident at a checkpoint in the

4 village of Hambarine. As the house of Aziz Aliskovic

5 was about 100 metres from the checkpoint, his name was

6 linked to that incident. Then an ultimatum was

7 addressed to him demanding that he surrender.

8 Q. Who organised that checkpoint close to

9 Mr. Aliskovic's house, where the incident occurred?

10 Was it a checkpoint of the legal authorities?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who organised it?

13 A. The public security station of Prijedor.

14 Q. Were you on duty in that period at that

15 checkpoint?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were there any casualties in that incident,

18 and deaths?

19 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

20 Q. Do you know whether the Prijedor Public

21 Security Station instituted disciplinary, and later

22 criminal proceedings against Mr. Aliskovic, who was

23 suspected of having participated in the incident when

24 two or three persons were killed?

25 A. No. The procedure was instituted by the Serb

Page 2894

1 Democratic Party and its headquarters, by its

2 propaganda over the radio.

3 Q. I'm talking about the Prijedor Public

4 Security Station, the legal one, not the Serb

5 Democratic Party. Three men were killed. Doesn't this

6 imply the obligation of the public security station,

7 not the Serbs, to institute an investigation, and if

8 Mr. Aliskovic is found to be guilty, to punish him?

9 A. The Serb side took over power, so the public

10 security station stopped functioning, and thereby there

11 was no possibility of establishing the actual state of

12 affairs, the facts of the case.

13 Q. But a moment ago you told me that the

14 checkpoint was established by the Prijedor Public

15 Security Station, and that is why I'm asking you.

16 A. The checkpoint had been established much

17 earlier, before the Serb takeover.

18 Q. Well, talking about that, when did the Serb

19 side take over power in Prijedor?

20 A. As far as I can recollect, at the beginning

21 of May.

22 Q. Regardless of the fact that you were on

23 sick-leave, you moved about, and so on. Were you

24 present at a large rally of members of the police or

25 members of the Prijedor Public Security Station,

Page 2895

1 chaired by Mr. Hasan Talundzic, on the 29th of April,

2 1992?

3 Let me help you. The meeting was motivated

4 by the security situation and the situation in the

5 public security station itself. That was the reason

6 for the meeting.

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. Thank you. Still in this area of

9 questioning, could you tell the Trial Chamber whether,

10 at the end of May, there was an armed conflict in the

11 town of Prijedor itself?

12 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

14 Hollis.

15 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, perhaps that

16 question could be rephrased. The existence of an armed

17 conflict is a legal determination. Perhaps it could be

18 phrased in more factual terms as to what occurred.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

21 in the course of the month of May that year, a most

22 unfortunate one, I can call it, for the whole region,

23 many things occurred -- there was a conflict in

24 Hambarine; there was another one -- and that is why I

25 wanted the witness to tell us. I accept the

Page 2896

1 suggestion.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

3 Mr. Simic, you said that many facts occurred. Well,

4 put your question in those terms, what took place.

5 Don't ask for conclusions. You need several steps to

6 get to that point.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 Thank you.

9 Q. What happened at the end of May?

10 A. Could you repeat the question?

11 Q. Did anything happen at the end of May in the

12 town of Prijedor itself?

13 A. As far as I can remember, there was an

14 incident when the Serb army killed four civilians from

15 the village of Brezicani, Prijedor municipality. That

16 incident occurred -- I remember that -- an armed

17 incident against unarmed civilians who were coming back

18 from the fields on a tractor.

19 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, my question related to the town

20 itself. That is why I phrased my question as I did.

21 And I apologise to Ms. Hollis.

22 A. The area where the crime occurred belongs to

23 the municipality of Prijedor.

24 Q. In the course of the night, were there any

25 military actions of larger proportions?

Page 2897

1 A. As far as I can recollect, it was in

2 response, by to me unknown persons, that a conflict

3 occurred in Prijedor. But what actually happened, I

4 don't know.

5 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, did you participate in that

6 conflict?

7 A. What conflict?

8 Q. The one you just described.

9 A. I said I heard about it.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you.

11 When did you hand in your weapons to the

12 public security station in Prijedor?

13 A. When that was demanded of me.

14 Q. On what date?

15 A. As far as I can recollect, I think it must

16 have been the 1st of June.

17 Q. Who asked you to hand in your weapons, and in

18 what way?

19 A. The night before, a reserve policeman came

20 and conveyed to me the message that the authorities

21 requested that I appear at the public security station

22 in Prijedor with my personal weapons. When I asked him

23 what would happen if I do not appear, he answered, "You

24 know what happened in Hambarine, when Aliskovic did not

25 surrender." I had very little time to think things

Page 2898

1 over.

2 Q. And knowing the situation, did you take the

3 weapons or not?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. What happened that day when you brought your

6 weapons, to the public security station, of course?

7 A. When we reached the station, I was searched,

8 my personal belongings were seized from me, and I was

9 taken to the first floor, to the crime department, for

10 processing.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

12 we are being told that it is not possible to

13 distinguish between the questions and answers, so could

14 you please make a break between your questions and the

15 answers. Because you're speaking the same languages,

16 and the interpreters are having difficulty in following

17 the questions and the answers.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. On that occasion did you make the normal,

20 regular, standard statement?

21 A. What do you mean?

22 Q. On that occasion did you make a statement in

23 the police station of Prijedor to one of the

24 investigators, or inspectors, as we used to call them?

25 A. There was an interrogation. And when I say

Page 2899

1 "interrogation," that also implies what you're asking.

2 Q. Who questioned you?

3 A. Members of the crime service of the public

4 security station.

5 Q. Do you know their names?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. What were their names?

8 A. There were several of them. Mira Jankovic,

9 Nenad Lakic, Gostimir Modic, and there was another

10 person whom I didn't know. I think that he had fled

11 from Croatia, where he used to work in the Ministry of

12 the Interior, SUP.

13 Q. On that occasion was any kind of report drawn

14 up? Did you sign anything?

15 A. They questioned me for about three hours,

16 they took notes, but I was not given anything to sign.

17 Q. What did you tell them?

18 A. I told them the -- I answered the questions

19 they put to me.

20 Q. But can you tell us the gist of those

21 questions and answers?

22 A. Could you make that clearer?

23 Q. What were they in interested in?

24 A. They were interested in the situation in the

25 area I came from.

Page 2900

1 Q. Linked to the harvest or actions or arming?

2 A. There were a great many questions; many,

3 many.

4 Q. Thank you. You were transferred to Omarska.

5 When and how?

6 A. I was first imprisoned.

7 Q. You spent a night there. After that night

8 you were transferred to Omarska.

9 A. Could you please give me a question rather

10 than a statement? It would be easier for me to give

11 you answers.

12 Q. When did you go to Omarska?

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

14 Mr. Simic, I apologise, but I think that the witness

15 has answered that question during the

16 examination-in-chief. Perhaps you could put your

17 questions directly, and in that way you would get a

18 direct answer maybe. Because the witness has already

19 explained what happened to him. So please put a direct

20 question to the witness, if possible, Mr. Simic.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

22 it is true that according to the transcript and my own

23 notes, he did talk about this, but there are reasons

24 why I wish to refer back to these events, and that is

25 why I would like the witness to answer questions which

Page 2901

1 we consider to be very important for us, and in view of

2 the examination-in-chief of Ms. Hollis.

3 Q. By what means were you transported to

4 Omarska?

5 A. By bus.

6 Q. Was it a bus carrying other prisoners, or

7 something else?

8 A. Members of the crime service.

9 Q. So let's speed things up. You reached

10 Omarska. Could you, at least roughly, tell us how you

11 moved about from your arrival in Omarska until you

12 left? In which building were you placed and in what

13 time periods?

14 A. It is very hard for me to tell you with any

15 precision.

16 Q. But I said roughly.

17 A. What does "roughly" mean?

18 Q. Approximately where were you held upon your

19 arrival in Omarska and how much time did you spend

20 there, to make it simpler.

21 A. I was -- for the first few days, I think

22 until the 6th, if I remember well, I was in this

23 building here. Can I point? This building

24 [indicates].

25 Q. Is that the hangar?

Page 2902

1 A. Yes, the hangar.

2 Q. So for the first few days, until the 6th, you

3 were in the hangar?

4 A. Yes, as far as I can recollect.

5 Q. After the hangar, where were you?

6 A. At the pista.

7 Q. How much time did you spend there?

8 A. As far as I can remember, about 40 days,

9 something like that.

10 Q. During your testimony you spoke about the

11 transportation of other prisoners. You arrived in

12 Omarska on the 6th. Did you personally, after the 6th,

13 see, in view of where you were held, the arrival of

14 buses or other means of transportation bringing in

15 prisoners?

16 A. Yes, when I was at the pista. I was at the

17 pista. I could see.

18 Q. So after the 6th you are saying that buses

19 with prisoners came to Omarska?

20 A. I didn't say buses. Could you please put

21 your question in concrete terms? I don't know what you

22 want me to say.

23 Q. I want you to tell us the truth.

24 A. I am telling the truth.

25 Q. So let me rephrase and simplify the

Page 2903

1 question. Did you personally see the bringing in of

2 new prisoners after your detention and after you left

3 the hangar?

4 A. Yes, from the pista I could see perfectly

5 well.

6 Q. I didn't say whether you could see it; I said

7 whether you did see it.

8 A. Yes, I did see.

9 Q. What did you see?

10 A. Persons being brought in.

11 Q. In what way?

12 A. They were brought in in an official vehicle,

13 the so-called Marica, black Marica.

14 Q. During your testimony you reached the point

15 when you were questioned, when you were interrogated,

16 but you didn't tell us at all whether you were

17 interrogated or not.

18 A. Yes, I was. I was interrogated many, many

19 times.

20 Q. When were you interrogated for the first

21 time?

22 A. When I was first brought in, the first day.

23 Q. Were you taken from the vehicle immediately

24 to the first floor of the administration building?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2904

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like

2 to ask the usher to show Exhibit 3/77P, a sketch of the

3 administration building, so that we can be a little bit

4 more precise, as this is something we have not touched

5 upon at all.

6 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, you have a sketch in front of you

7 of the administration building, the first floor of that

8 building, where those interrogations took place. In

9 which room were you interrogated the first time? You

10 put it at the 2nd of June, 1992.

11 A. I don't know for sure but I know it was on

12 the right-hand side. But which one, I don't know.

13 Q. When you were interrogated for the second

14 time?

15 A. It was another room and another group of

16 investigators.

17 Q. Sorry. When you were interrogated for the

18 first time, who were the interrogators?

19 A. There were two inspectors, as they said, whom

20 I didn't know, and they introduced themselves as people

21 who used to have the same job in the Republic of

22 Croatia, in the area of Pakrac. I could not identify

23 them; they didn't give me their names. The first

24 question they asked, they said, "Your answer to our

25 first question will decide your fate, whether you will

Page 2905

1 survive or not."

2 Q. Did they have any notes about the

3 interrogations with you in the public security station

4 in Prijedor of the 1st of June?

5 A. They had a lot of papers on the basis of

6 which they questioned me.

7 Q. When were you interrogated for the second

8 time?

9 A. Very shortly after that, almost daily, until

10 the actual trial, when the Serb court, they organised a

11 kind of trial at the end of all those interrogations; a

12 Serb court, that's what they said, of the Serb

13 Republic. I remember they gave me a defence counsel;

14 unfortunately, he was worse than the prosecution.

15 Q. Where was this trial organised?

16 A. It was organised in the administration

17 building.

18 Q. On the first floor?

19 A. Yes. Yes, on the first floor.

20 Q. Could you tell us in what room? You have the

21 sketch in front of you.

22 A. I was taken to the first floor. By then

23 already I had to look down, and this was very strict.

24 You couldn't look left or right; you had to look at

25 your own feet. Then I think we were taken to the large

Page 2906

1 room to the right, but anyway, I had to look down all

2 the time. I was placed in a chair --

3 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, during those frequent

4 interrogations, did anyone you knew among the

5 inspectors, people who used to work in the Prijedor

6 Public Security Station, interrogate you?

7 A. On the umpteenth occasion --

8 Q. If you don't know, you don't have to tell

9 us.

10 A. I remember there was this Nenad Lakic, a

11 former colleague of mine and then --

12 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you what penalty or

13 punishment they brought against you?

14 A. I was told at the end of the trial, because

15 there was a typist who was typing down everything, and

16 I was told at the end -- I was asked, do I want to

17 sign, do I want to sign. I had no choice. I said I

18 would sign.

19 Q. What?

20 A. What she was typing and the questions that

21 they were asking me about, general questions about

22 everything. But the verdict, I wasn't told. They

23 called a guide, who would take people back, to take me

24 away, and I did.

25 Q. Do you know who your defence attorney was?

Page 2907

1 A. Yes, I do. His name was Triso, Triso from

2 Prijedor.

3 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, I understand and know about the

4 time when you were detained and the time that has

5 elapsed. But can you tell us with any certainty,

6 indicate any one of the rooms that you went into? If

7 you can't, you can't.

8 A. I told you, I was questioned on a number of

9 occasions and in several different rooms. But the

10 system was to disorientate one, so for a time I was

11 sure it was the first or the second room on the right,

12 and then those on the left were a bit larger, and so

13 on --

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mrkalj. Let us now go on to

15 the one but last area.

16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like

17 to ask the usher to have the witness shown document

18 D17/1 and to have D17/1A be given to the Prosecution

19 and the Trial Chamber so that they can follow.

20 Q. You have the text in front of you.

21 A. It's not very legible; I can't read

22 properly.

23 Q. We'll read it together. Mr. Mrkalj, during

24 your testimony, when you came to the identification

25 process, you recognised Mr. Simo Drljaca; you spoke

Page 2908

1 about him. Now, tell us, who was Simo Drljaca?

2 A. He was the man who came to replace the chief

3 of the Prijedor Public Security Station.

4 Q. In the territory of Prijedor municipality,

5 did a Crisis Staff of the Prijedor municipality

6 function at all?

7 A. When do you mean?

8 Q. We are talking about May, when Mr. Drljaca

9 became chief of the security station.

10 A. You mean the Serbian Crisis Staff?

11 Q. Very well. The Serbian Crisis Staff of

12 Prijedor municipality. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Drljaca, as the chief of the public

15 security station, was he a member of that Crisis Staff?

16 A. As far as I recall, yes, he was.

17 Q. What competencies or authority did the

18 Serbian Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality have?

19 A. I can't really tell you that. I don't know

20 what they had in their documents and acts.

21 Q. And in practice?

22 A. How do you mean "in practice"?

23 Q. Did they make any statements, anything of

24 that kind? Did you happen to hear that via the media?

25 A. Yes, on the radio.

Page 2909

1 Q. Did you know Mr. Drljaca?

2 A. I met him, yes.

3 Q. You have before you a document and we'll read

4 through it together, the sections that we want to

5 comment. We'll skip over the heading and we'll go on

6 to "Centre of Security Services of Banja Luka, the

7 Public Security Station of Prijedor, Strictly

8 Confidential, number 11-12-20." The date is the 31st

9 of May, 1992, that is, two days before you were brought

10 to Omarska.

11 In the introduction it states as follows:

12 "With a view to the speedy and effective establishment

13 of peace on the territory of Prijedor municipality, and

14 in accordance with the decision of the Crisis Staff, I

15 hereby order the following," and after that it goes on

16 to state -- that is to say, let us turn over the page,

17 and on page 3 it says: "Chief of the Public Security

18 Station, Simo Drljaca." Page 3. There is a stamp as

19 well.

20 A. Who is doing the questioning now, you or the

21 man sitting next to you?

22 Q. I am putting the questions to you and I am

23 assisted by my colleague.

24 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

25 Q. On page 3, is there a stamp and does it say

Page 2910

1 "Chief of the Public Security Service, Simo Drljaca"?

2 A. That's what it says, yes.

3 Q. Is this an order, as you said yesterday, by

4 the number one man in the public security station of

5 Prijedor?

6 A. For me, this is nothing.

7 Q. I am speaking about the document from the

8 aspects of the way I have read it out. Is it an order

9 or --

10 A. I cannot comment on the aspects.

11 Q. We are talking about the order itself, the

12 document itself. We'll come to the various points in

13 that order.

14 A. Well, I can't comment.

15 Q. Would you yourself please read out point 6 of

16 this order.

17 A. You want me to read it out?

18 Q. Yes, please, you read it out. You have it in

19 front of you. You don't have to read it aloud; you can

20 read it to yourself.

21 A. I have read it.

22 Q. Is that an order by the chief of the public

23 security station to the department of the Omarska

24 police station to provide security -- let us use the

25 term "camp" -- to provide security for the camp?

Page 2911

1 A. That's what it says.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Let us now read point 3

3 because it concerns individuals that you knew, or I'll

4 read it and you can follow it for purposes of the

5 transcript.

6 [As read] "The further work and selection of

7 detained individuals will be continued by a mixed

8 committee of inspectors of national, public, and

9 military security who must be organised according to

10 this same mixed principle. For their work, the

11 responsible individuals are Mirko Jesic, Ranko Mijic,

12 and Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic."

13 Mr. Mrkalj, is that an order to three

14 services -- the main security service, public security

15 service, and military security service -- to perform

16 certain investigations, and that this order appoints

17 individuals on behalf of all of these -- that is to

18 say, from all of these departments?

19 A. That is what it says.

20 Q. Do you know Ranko Mijic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was he? What was his function in the

23 public security service?

24 A. He was chief of the crime department.

25 Q. Do you know Mr. Jesic?

Page 2912

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was he?

3 A. He worked in matters of state security, as

4 far as I recall.

5 Q. Do you know Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic?

6 A. I'm not quite sure.

7 Q. I should now like to ask you to look at point

8 7, paragraph 7 of the order, which is on page 2. And I

9 read as follows: "The mine's Management shall

10 organise --"

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

12 you needn't repeat the document. We have the document

13 in front of us. You can just ask the question. We

14 have the document, the witness has the document, so why

15 read the document?

16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Well, I

17 thought that by this we would save time because I would

18 have --

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Give

20 the witness a little time to read the paragraph himself

21 and then go on to asking your question.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank

23 you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Would you read sentence 1 of paragraph 7.

25 Mr. Mrkalj, I see you've read it.

Page 2913

1 A. Well, you see, I haven't read it. You can't

2 see well. I see that you don't see very well because I

3 haven't read it. The word "u koju" is written

4 separately, two words. But, yes, I have completed

5 reading now.

6 Q. Is this an order to the mine's management of

7 Ljubija to organise meals in conformity with the

8 members of the military quartermaster service?

9 A. That's only what it says on paper.

10 Q. Please go on to read the second sentence of

11 paragraph 7 so that we can wind this up.

12 A. This is a catastrophe.

13 Q. I expect an answer, Witness, not a comment.

14 Is it an order that the Mines' Management should

15 organise a regular cleaning of the compound and

16 everything else?

17 A. Yes, that is what it states.

18 Q. I should now like to ask you to read

19 paragraph 11 on that same page.

20 A. It says here --

21 Q. Very well. You've read it, then.

22 A. I haven't read it, because I can't see the

23 number. I can't see what time it says.

24 Q. It says 1200 hours.

25 A. In my text it says "unit," and then there's

Page 2914

1 nothing else, so I can't find my way.

2 Q. Is this an order that the Security Services

3 coordinators are duty-bound every day, at a particular

4 hour, to send in a report to the chief of the Prijedor

5 Public Security Station?

6 A. That is what it says here.

7 Q. Who are the coordinators? And if you haven't

8 remembered, we can go back to paragraph 3 on page 1 to

9 remind you.

10 A. What do you want me to answer now?

11 Q. Are the coordinators Mr. Jesic, Mr. Mijic,

12 and Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic? Were they them,

13 the coordinators?

14 A. Well, we already said that.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you.

16 To whom is this report sent? Give us his

17 name. The chief of the Prijedor Public Security

18 Station, what was the chief's name?

19 A. Simo Drljaca.

20 Q. Thank you. Now read, if you will, paragraph

21 12 of that same order.

22 Mr. Mrkalj, according to this order, is it

23 also the duty of the chief of security to proceed in

24 the same manner with respect to the functioning of the

25 Security Service?

Page 2915

1 A. Would you let me read through it, please?

2 You seem to be in a hurry.

3 Q. No, I'm in no hurry at all. Take your time.

4 Read it through at your leisure.

5 A. I've read the paragraph.

6 Q. Let me repeat: Is that also an order to the

7 chief of security that he is duty-bound to proceed in

8 the same way with security matters?

9 A. That's what it says.

10 Q. Very well. That's what it says, then. And

11 to wind up now, I should like to ask you to read

12 through paragraph 17 of the same order very carefully.

13 A. I've read it.

14 Q. Is this an order that the control and

15 supervision of the execution of this order shall be

16 performed by the police chief, Dusan Jankovic?

17 A. I can only note that that is what it says

18 here.

19 Q. Now, on page -- on the same page, Mr. Mrkalj,

20 staying with that page. In the police, in our legal

21 system, when a legal act is sent out to anybody, an

22 order, decision, or any similar document, does it state

23 to whom -- the addressee, as to whom these documents

24 are sent? Is that also stipulated?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 2916

1 Q. Thank you. I heard you say yes. And in that

2 sense, I should like to ask you to read what it says

3 after paragraph 17. It says: Sent to -- copies sent

4 to --

5 A. It says here "1. Crisis Staff," et cetera.

6 Q. Very well. The Crisis Staff. So copies are

7 sent there; right?

8 A. Well, you told me to read through it.

9 Q. Very well. Yes, please continue.

10 A. Now there are the coordinators.

11 Q. It says "security services coordinators."

12 A. I can't see what it says next.

13 Q. In my document it is the CBS Banja Luka.

14 Then we have the police chief. Who is the police

15 chief, in conformity with paragraph 17? Dusan

16 Jankovic; is that it?

17 A. Well, it says what it says. Somebody wrote

18 that, so that's what it says.

19 Q. Jankovic, Dusan. Next it says "security

20 chief." Does it say that?

21 A. That's what it says.

22 Q. Does it say "General Manager, RJR, the

23 Ljubija Iron Ore Mines"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Does it say "files" or "archives"?

Page 2917

1 A. It does.

2 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, is this document, this act, with

3 clear-cut instructions, was it sent to those

4 individuals who are duty-bound to act upon it?

5 A. Yes, that's what it says. Now, I don't know

6 what --

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. It says that copies

8 were sent to the commander. Does it say the commander

9 of the camp?

10 A. No, it does not.

11 Q. May I hold your attention for one moment

12 longer on paragraph 11 of this same document.

13 A. Yes, very well.

14 Q. To whom did all these individuals have to

15 submit reports?

16 A. To the chief. To the chief of the public

17 security station.

18 Q. Thank you. When we spoke about reports and

19 who tables reports, is the term "commander," "lead

20 deputy," does it say they submit reports to the chief

21 of the public security station in any way?

22 A. In these papers, you mean?

23 Q. Yes, in these documents, in the document

24 we're looking at.

25 A. No, it does not.

Page 2918

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mrkalj. Yesterday -- rather,

2 the day before, in your testimony you mentioned that

3 you have certain repercussions with respect to your

4 health and that you have had dealings with

5 psychiatrists, psychologists. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Could you tell us what kind of -- what the

8 manifestations of your illness or the consequences of

9 what you have suffered are?

10 A. My psychological state is very difficult, and

11 it was brought on as a consequence of what happened in

12 the camp.

13 Q. Yes, but could you tell us how this is

14 manifested? Will you wait for me to finish? The

15 Judges have been drawing my attention to ask concrete

16 questions, so I'm asking you about the manifestations.

17 A. Nobody has yet warned me.

18 Q. Well, we were warned earlier on and you were

19 asked to answer my questions.

20 A. So you were cautioned, not me.

21 Q. I think both of us were cautioned.

22 A. Well, I have every respect for the work you

23 do, and the consequences of the camp and what happened

24 in the camp are as follows: The day before yesterday

25 you witnessed a very -- quite an unusual event which

Page 2919

1 took place here, and I see that everybody was present

2 during the identification of accused, of a witness.

3 When I turned around and had to point out the real

4 name, I had a terrible scene conjured up in my mind,

5 come to mind.

6 Q. I'm not asking you that. We completed that

7 question. I'm just asking you the manifestations of

8 your health condition.

9 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I object to this

10 intervention. I believe that the witness was answering

11 exactly what was asked, the consequences, and he was

12 explaining what occurred in his mind when he looked.

13 So I believe indeed he was answering a question. I

14 would ask the Defence counsel to allow him to complete

15 the answer.

16 THE INTERPRETER: We were not getting the

17 interpretation. I do apologise.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can the

19 Defence counsel hear now? Yes?

20 Mr. Simic, a response to Ms. Hollis'

21 objection.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

23 I asked the witness to say what he has been treated

24 for, the symptoms that he has been treated for, and not

25 to go back to a scene that has already passed. And

Page 2920

1 Ms. Hollis can go back to it, of course, during her

2 re-examination, but I here and now am interested in the

3 diagnosis, in what Mr. -- I beg your pardon -- what

4 Mr. Mrkalj's diagnosis is.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

6 the same question was raised by Ms. Hollis the day

7 before yesterday, the consequences. The same question

8 was raised the day before yesterday by Ms. Hollis, what

9 the consequences are. Now, what is your precise

10 question?

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Well, I

12 withdraw my question.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, if

14 you want to ask the witness what the consequences are,

15 you are asking exactly the same question that

16 Ms. Hollis asked.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the

18 question in view of the fact that Ms. Hollis has

19 already posed it, and I have completed my

20 cross-examination.

21 Thank you, Mr. Mrkalj, for your assistance.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Thank you, Mr. Simic. Mr. Fila, I think that this

24 would be an opportune moment to take a break.

25 We rise for half an hour.

Page 2921

1 --- Recess taken at 10.57 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

4 seated.

5 Mr. Jovan Simic, is there a problem?

6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

7 concerning the problem we raised prior to the break, we

8 have spoken to the Registrar. Mr. Rhodes said that

9 such an order was issued upon the request of the

10 Prosecution. I have spoken to my learned friend,

11 Ms. Hollis, who told me that such a request had not

12 come from the Prosecution.

13 I've spoken to the Registry again and I was

14 advised to very briefly see with the Prosecution

15 whether they object and whether they oppose my client

16 being transported together with the other accused so

17 that this problem can be resolved and the accused may

18 be allowed to leave. In that way, the Registrar would

19 be informed that the Prosecution has nothing against

20 such a decision.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

22 have you any comment to make?

23 MS. HOLLIS: First of all, Your Honour, the

24 Prosecution is very surprised to learn that it's upon

25 our request that such a thing would happen.

Page 2922

1 But as regards this particular request that

2 Defence counsel for Mr. Prcac has made, of course we

3 have no objection to anything that is required by the

4 health of this accused, and we would have no objection

5 to a return to the detention facility very quickly

6 after the close of proceedings each day if that is what

7 is required for the accused's health.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

9 very much, Ms. Hollis.

10 Madam Registrar, you will take note of this

11 so that the Registrar may decide, as it is not a matter

12 for the Chamber. But the Chamber does recommend that

13 this matter be taken into consideration.

14 We're going to continue now with the

15 cross-examination of this witness, and it is now

16 Mr. Fila's turn to ask questions.

17 Mr. Fila, please take care to make breaks

18 between questions and answers; otherwise, the

19 interpreters will find it hard to follow.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will

21 pay attention.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

23 Q. Good morning, Witness. I am Toma Fila,

24 representing Radic. I hope you're feeling better. I

25 was rather worried yesterday about your health.

Page 2923

1 During your examination-in-chief, you said

2 that on the 10th of April you left your employment in

3 the public security station in Prijedor; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, I stopped working.

6 Q. Fine. During the examination-in-chief, you

7 used the words "rules," "the book of rules," and so

8 on. What I'm interested in is whether you know the

9 exact title of those rules.

10 A. I've already said once what the name of that

11 book is.

12 Q. Is it "The Rules on the Work of Employees of

13 the Internal Affairs Service"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So that is the right name. Was it a book

16 which you studied during your training? And those

17 rules were still in force when you stopped working, is

18 the expression that you prefer.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After leaving the public security station, do

21 you have any idea how the work was done?

22 A. What do you mean?

23 Q. I mean after the takeover of power, the new

24 organisation, Simo Drljaca, and all the rest, do you

25 know which legal regulations governed their work?

Page 2924

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. You mentioned the name of Zeljko Meakic.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Later you said that you left the Omarska camp

5 in August, when the camp was disbanded.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was Zeljko Meakic present at the time, when

8 that happened? I'm talking about the call-out.

9 A. I think he was.

10 Q. What was his position in the camp throughout

11 that time, if you know?

12 A. According to correct information that reached

13 me, his function ceased some two weeks prior to the

14 disbanding of the camp, the post of camp commander.

15 Q. During those two weeks, those last two weeks,

16 did the situation in the camp improve at all? Let me

17 help you. There were some journalists and so on, to

18 remind you of that period.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you remember that some people came to pay

21 a visit?

22 A. There was a visit, yes, but nothing

23 improved. Just when they came, there was some cosmetic

24 improvements.

25 Q. You mentioned some sort of a trial -- drink

Page 2925

1 your water in peace.

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. -- and a lawyer Triso. Was he a lawyer?

4 A. Yes, a lawyer.

5 Q. From Prijedor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You also mentioned a typist.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know her name, perhaps?

10 A. Slavica.

11 Q. Slavica. Was she perhaps from the public

12 security station in Prijedor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So they were those who came there?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. You said that you knew Mladjo Radic from

17 before and that his shift was the third shift, judging

18 by a number worn on the backside of a T-shirt of one of

19 the guards.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How did you recognise the other shifts? Were

22 they all wearing these numbers on their backs?

23 A. No, they were not.

24 Q. But this one was called the third?

25 A. Yes, by this number 3.

Page 2926

1 Q. Who do you know from that shift?

2 A. From shift number 3?

3 Q. Yes, in addition to Mladjo Radic.

4 A. Mladjo Radic. I know him.

5 Q. Do you know anyone else?

6 A. No, I didn't know those people from before.

7 Q. And now? I mean, now have you remembered any

8 one of them?

9 A. No. I didn't know them personally. They

10 were people from the area.

11 Q. Can I say that neither then or now did you

12 know the names of the persons in the third shift except

13 for Mladjo Radic?

14 A. I knew Mladjo Radic in person.

15 Q. So apart from him, you didn't know anyone

16 else?

17 A. No.

18 Q. When Dusko Tadic was beating you, that you

19 told us about yesterday, was any guard present whose

20 name you know?

21 A. Among those who were working there, no.

22 Q. You mentioned the role of Krkan in connection

23 with some call-outs. I'm trying to remind you. And

24 you said that you saw him. Were these call-outs of

25 people who were going for interrogation to the

Page 2927

1 administration building or some other kinds of

2 call-outs?

3 A. That depended on the situation. For

4 instance, when that call-out was made, I couldn't see

5 where the man went.

6 Q. You said they would come back beaten up.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But where did they go to come back beaten up?

9 A. It depended whether they would take the man

10 out just to be beaten up or for interrogation, to be

11 beaten up up there.

12 Q. Is that what you meant, that they were being

13 taken for interrogation and beaten up there, when you

14 said that you saw Mladjo Radic in the vicinity?

15 A. I don't know what you're referring to.

16 Q. In the examination-in-chief, in answer to a

17 question by Ms. Hollis, you said that once you saw

18 Mladjo Radic being present when people were being

19 called out for interrogation, and who were brought back

20 beaten up. Is that what you meant?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was that the interrogation that was conducted

23 in the administration building in a similar way as you

24 were interrogated?

25 A. People were beaten up every day.

Page 2928

1 Q. Are you referring to those interrogations?

2 A. It depends on the situation you're referring

3 to.

4 Q. You said you saw Krkan being present when

5 people were being taken out for interrogation.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were they taken to the administration

8 building?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So where exactly did you see him? Was he

11 standing or walking around?

12 A. There, in front of the building, in front of

13 the administration building. When the big beating

14 occurred, he was --

15 Q. Just tell us.

16 A. What is marked with A21, the window up

17 there. He was inside and I was standing where I could

18 see him.

19 Q. Did you perhaps see whether he was carrying

20 any weapons?

21 A. You see, I didn't need to check whether he

22 was armed or not. I didn't care. I didn't pay any

23 attention to that.

24 Q. You said that a person from the security gave

25 you certain information. That person, was he -- I'm

Page 2929

1 sorry. Let me rephrase it. Was that the same person

2 who informed you that Mladjo Radic was the shift

3 leader? I'm not asking his name.

4 A. I was told by that person, in addition to

5 what I was able to see and hear.

6 Q. Was that one and the same person?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. I'm not asking you his name.

9 Did you know who wore that sports jersey with

10 the number 3 on it?

11 A. I didn't care. At the beginning of my

12 treatment I was given instructions that it would be

13 best not to polemicise and not to talk about what

14 happened.

15 Q. Apart from you seeing Mladjo Radic up there,

16 A21, as you said, in the administration building, is

17 that what you were talking about in answer to Ms.

18 Brenda Hollis' question?

19 A. No.

20 Q. But that is where you said you saw him.

21 A. I said in those various situations, at

22 various times.

23 Q. In those various situations and times, I'm

24 asking you for the place where you saw him.

25 A. It depended on the event you are referring

Page 2930

1 to.

2 Q. I'm asking you in what places you saw him.

3 A. I've already told you: In various places,

4 depending on what was happening.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have

6 no further questions.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

8 very much, Mr. Fila.

9 Mr. Tosic, if you please.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Tosic:

11 Q. Good day to you, Mr. Mrkalj. I'm going to

12 ask you a couple of questions.

13 In Omarska, the incident of your beating by

14 Dusko Tadic, you said that this occurred on the 16th of

15 June, 1992, and you said that in that incident three

16 other persons took part. Could you please tell us

17 whether you know the names of those persons.

18 A. No.

19 Q. In your testimony you also stated that you

20 learnt subsequently the name of one of those three

21 persons.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you please tell us the name of that

24 person.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2931

1 Q. Will you tell us the first and last name of

2 that person.

3 A. Zoran Vokic.

4 Q. Will you tell us: When that incident

5 occurred, did you know the name of Zoran Vokic then, at

6 the time?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How much later during your stay in Omarska

9 did you learn that it was Zoran Vokic?

10 A. It was an assumption that it could have been

11 that person.

12 Q. From whom did you learn the name of that

13 person?

14 A. From one of the detainees who thought that it

15 might be that person.

16 Q. What were the comments exchanged between you

17 and that detainee regarding the personality of Zoran

18 Vokic? How did you come to that conclusion when

19 talking to this detainee, the conclusion that it was

20 Zoran Vokic?

21 A. Apparently he had seen him.

22 Q. While you were working in the Prijedor Police

23 Station, did you know a person working in the police

24 with a surname Vokic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2932

1 Q. Could you tell us the first name of that

2 person?

3 A. Radovan Vokic.

4 Q. When you learnt of the name of Zoran Vokic,

5 do you remember whether before Omarska you had any

6 contact with that individual in your official dealings?

7 A. Something linked to traffic, but I wasn't

8 sure. You can't remember all the people you deal with.

9 Q. Could you describe that person for us?

10 A. The moments when I saw that person were such

11 that I had very little chance to see him well, so I

12 couldn't really describe him, in view of the condition

13 I was in.

14 Q. Could you remember whether that person had

15 something -- was wearing something unusual, something

16 special, out of the ordinary, regarding the clothing he

17 wore or his features or his appearance?

18 A. It's rather hard for me to go back to those

19 events, because for years I have been trying to forget

20 them and to simply wipe them away from my memory. And

21 I have answered these same questions so many times. I

22 see no need for me to make the effort to look back.

23 Q. Well, then, will you please tell us: In your

24 statement that you gave to the investigators, you

25 mentioned that Zoran Vokic was wearing a gold earring

Page 2933

1 in his right ear, in the form of a cross. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. If that is what it says in my statement, then

4 it is so.

5 Q. Can you perhaps remember, when this beating

6 occurred, what did that person use to beat you with?

7 A. Do I have to go back to that again? I've

8 gone into all that once. Do I really have to? I do

9 apologise.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

11 you have to answer questions put to you. If you can

12 remember, you say so. You tell us what you remember.

13 If you can't remember, you simply say, "I can't

14 remember." That is an answer to the question.

15 A. I can't remember. You're quite right. To

16 avoid this further torture, I can't remember those

17 things, and I don't want to go into them. It was the

18 worst situation for me.

19 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Just one more question, if you can't

21 remember. Is it true, what you told the investigators,

22 that that person beat you with an iron rail and a

23 rubber truncheon with a spring and a ball at the end of

24 it?

25 A. The blows were terrible. I'm talking in

Page 2934

1 general terms. They beat me with a rubber truncheon

2 and with that spring which had a ball at the end of

3 it.

4 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

5 Honours. We have no further questions. I apologise,

6 Your Honour. We have no further questions but we would

7 like to tender the statement -- or perhaps we can do

8 that at the end. I'm sorry. We have no further

9 questions for this witness. Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

11 very much, Mr. Tosic.

12 Mr. Jovan Simic, if you please.

13 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

14 in view of the fact that no positive identification of

15 my client was made, we will have no questions. But if

16 this identification, any attempt is made to accept --

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

18 you can ask questions or not ask questions. You cannot

19 make that conclusion as to whether there was a positive

20 identification or not.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

23 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

24 there was no positive identification, as has been

25 entered in the record by the Prosecution, so we have no

Page 2935

1 questions.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We now move

3 on to any additional questions.

4 Ms. Hollis.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Re-examined by Ms. Hollis:

7 Q. Sir, on cross-examination you were asked some

8 questions about who was responsible for prisoners and

9 prisons. I would ask you, sir, did the Prijedor Police

10 Department have cells in which it held people who had

11 been arrested?

12 A. Yes, it had one cell.

13 Q. Were the police officers belonging to the

14 police department those who were responsible for those

15 prisoners in that cell?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were also asked questions about a duty

18 officer or an operative duty officer, and you testified

19 you did not know what was meant by that.

20 A. Yes, that's what I said.

21 Q. Are you familiar with a position called

22 "shift leader"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was that position?

25 A. That position was an authorised official who

Page 2936

1 was at the head of the operative affairs of the

2 station.

3 Q. What were the duties of that individual?

4 A. That person would send workers to work; that

5 person was constantly in radio communication with the

6 workers, officers.

7 Q. How many shift leaders would be on duty at

8 any one particular time?

9 A. We worked within a system of two first

10 shifts, two second shifts, and two third shifts, and

11 then two days off, and so according to that system,

12 four persons.

13 Q. So a shift leader in charge of each shift.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you were also asked questions about an

16 incident at Hambarine, and it was indicated that people

17 there were killed as a result of that incident. Did

18 you speak with anyone who was wounded as a result of

19 that incident?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who was that?

22 A. Ferid Sikiric.

23 Q. Now, in your testimony on direct examination,

24 you talked about a person named Ferid Sikiric. Is this

25 the same person?

Page 2937

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you talked to this Ferid Sikiric, did he

3 tell you how he was injured?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did he tell you?

6 A. He was at the time at a checkpoint.

7 Q. At which checkpoint?

8 A. The Hambarine checkpoint. A vehicle came

9 from the direction of Prijedor, moving in the direction

10 of Ljubija. According to well-founded suspicions and

11 some information received that the vehicle was

12 transporting weapons in fact, the vehicle was stopped

13 for a search and control to be conducted.

14 The driver of the vehicle stopped his

15 vehicle. Another person who was at the checkpoint

16 approached to see what was going on. Everybody was

17 asked to leave the vehicle. At that moment the person

18 who was sitting behind the driver, through the door,

19 that is to say, from inside the car, he opened fire

20 through the door of the vehicle. Ferid Sikiric was

21 hit. The second individual, that is to say, the third

22 individual, the person who could see the car, responded

23 to the fire and shot in turn, returned fire. That's

24 how it came about.

25 Q. Now, at one point in cross-examination you

Page 2938

1 were being asked about your interrogations, and you

2 were asked if any people who had worked in the Prijedor

3 Police Station ever took part in interrogating you.

4 You answered that Nenad Lakic took part in that, and it

5 appeared that you had other names you wished to give

6 but you were interrupted.

7 Do you recall anyone else from the Prijedor

8 Police Station who was present when you were

9 interrogated?

10 A. Yes. Nebojsa Tomicic and another Nebojsa; we

11 had two Nebojsas. I was interrogated in their presence

12 and we had to sign some documents.

13 Q. Other than those individuals, do you recall

14 the names of any personnel from the Prijedor Police

15 Station who were present when you were interrogated?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who, please?

18 A. I remember, during my first interrogation,

19 the chief of the crime department, Ranko Ivic [as

20 interpreted], and there was something that was brought

21 into question and I asked him to confirm my story.

22 Q. I'm sorry. Would you give that name again?

23 Who was the chief of the crime department?

24 A. Ranko Mijic.

25 Q. Thank you. You were also asked some

Page 2939

1 questions about a document, document 17/1, and you were

2 referred to paragraph 7, the sentence which indicated

3 that the mine's management would organise meals for

4 detainees in conjunction with the quartermaster corps.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

7 Mr. Krstan Simic.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

9 in the document it says the mine's management of

10 Ljubija, not the management of the camp, which was the

11 interpretation we got. I don't know what Ms. Hollis

12 said but it says, the mine's management of Ljubija, the

13 Ljubija mine's management and not the camp management.

14 Thank you.

15 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, that's not what I

16 intended to say. I'm not sure I said that. But

17 anyway, I certainly did not mean to say Ljubija and I

18 don't believe I did, so perhaps the interpretation

19 could be clarified. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may

21 continue.

22 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, may I ask you, when did you first

24 receive food in the camp?

25 A. Well, about four or five days later.

Page 2940

1 Q. While you were held in the camp, did you --

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

4 Mr. Simic.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

6 this question was not raised in the cross-examination

7 by any of the Defence counsel.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

9 Ms. Hollis.

10 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the question was

11 asked about the paragraph assigning responsibility for

12 organising food in the camp; my questions are relevant

13 to that. The Prosecution would suggest the inference

14 which the Defence will wish to be drawn from that is

15 that the mine's management was responsible for any

16 difficulties with food. We are exploring that

17 situation with these questions. We believe that it is

18 relevant to the cross-examination and we would ask to

19 be allowed to ask the question.

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, Your Honour, I

21 object.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I was going

23 to give the floor to Mr. Simic to know whether he

24 agrees with the response made by Ms. Hollis, whether

25 you accept -- let me correct myself, whether you accept

Page 2941

1 what Ms. Hollis has said.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

3 we do not accept what Ms. Hollis has said because the

4 object of our cross-examination was who was

5 responsible; that is to say, we wanted to show the

6 system of organisation and the functioning of the camp

7 and not the method of providing food. We discussed

8 that at length with other witnesses. This particular

9 witness did not speak about that during his testimony,

10 during his examination-in-chief and afterwards.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Trial

12 Chamber considers that you have opened the question of

13 meals, which was included in the document, and

14 therefore Ms. Hollis can ask her question.

15 Before you continue, Ms. Hollis, I would like

16 to hear Mr. O'Sullivan. He had an objection to make, I

17 think.

18 Mr. O'Sullivan was on his feet.

19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. My

20 objection is that the test for whether or not

21 re-examination is possible it is not, as Ms. Hollis

22 suggests, whether her questions are relevant.

23 Relevancy is not the issue.

24 In my submission, re-examination is limited

25 to questions raised during cross-examination which are

Page 2942

1 unclear, which require clarification. There's no

2 ambiguity in the questions put to this witness during

3 the cross-examination, nor in his answers. This is an

4 attempt to engage in examination-in-chief, which is not

5 permitted during re-examination.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank

7 you very much, Mr. O'Sullivan, but the question of

8 meals, of food, was an essential question to this case,

9 and therefore -- just one moment, please, for me to

10 confer.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

13 you may continue with the question. The Chamber feels

14 that it comes within the scope of the regulations. So

15 please continue.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Sir, during your detention in Omarska, did

18 you receive food every day?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did any camp personnel ever intervene to

21 ensure that you received food?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, you were also questioned about paragraph

24 7 of this same document as it related to the mines'

25 management organising regular cleaning and

Page 2943

1 maintenance. Were there regular cleaning and

2 maintenance of the areas where you were detained in

3 Omarska camp?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did any camp personnel ever intervene to

6 ensure that the areas where you were held were

7 regularly cleaned and maintained?

8 A. No.

9 Q. During cross-examination by Defence counsel

10 for accused Radic, you were asked about locations where

11 Radic was during times that people were called out. I

12 would ask you to assist the Court, please, and tell the

13 Court in what different locations did you see the

14 accused Radic when people were called out? You have

15 mentioned one such location. I would ask you to assist

16 the Court and tell them the other locations.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Objection. Your

18 Honours --

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

20 apologise. I was listening to the interpretation, thus

21 the lag. Mr. Fila.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you

23 said that we should not repeat questions that have

24 already been asked. I posed exactly the same question

25 in the same word order, but I didn't insist upon it

Page 2944

1 because of your advice. You advised otherwise. Now,

2 does the witness only answer the Prosecution and not

3 us? So I object to that.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

5 your response to the objection.

6 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the general rule is

7 that you don't repeat questions that were asked and

8 answered. This question is being repeated because it

9 was not answered. Your Honours are free to determine

10 the significance of the fact that it was not answered

11 for Defence counsel for Mr. Radic, and whether it is

12 answered when I ask it, and why that may be. But it

13 was not answered, and that's why I'm asking it.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,

16 please go ahead. I do apologise. You know, there is

17 always a slight delay because I'm listening to the

18 interpretation.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The answer was

20 given that Mladjo Radic was at different places,

21 depending on the situation. I asked twice, I got the

22 same answer twice. And I don't understand what

23 Ms. Hollis wants, apart from getting something else.

24 That is what the witness answered twice, so why go into

25 it a third time? And I still maintain that questions

Page 2945

1 should not be repeated in order to get a different

2 answer.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

4 please don't repeat the question, but you can, of

5 course, specify and go on, go into specifics, and

6 reformulate your question.

7 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll

8 attempt to do so.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

10 Ms. Hollis.

11 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I will

12 attempt to do so.

13 Q. On cross-examination by Defence counsel for

14 accused Radic, you indicated that in addition to the

15 rounded area on the administration building, that you

16 saw accused Radic present in different locations when

17 people were called out. Could you please assist the

18 Court and specify where those different locations

19 were.

20 A. Yes, I can. In addition to what I've already

21 stated, the locations were here in this building, on

22 this model, which means in the building, the space

23 referred to as maintenance, where cars were

24 maintenanced, repaired. That's where we were detained.

25 Q. When you're talking about "this building,"

Page 2946

1 could you tell us how that building was referred to by

2 the detainees? What was the building called?

3 A. The maintenance building, something like

4 that.

5 Q. Now, earlier in your direct testimony you

6 mentioned the repair building and you said that was the

7 hangar building.

8 A. Yes, that's the hangar.

9 Q. Is the maintenance building the same as the

10 repair building?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were also asked questions on

13 cross-examination based upon a statement that you had

14 given, and you were asked questions in regard to a

15 person called Vokic and how you had described Vokic.

16 At this time I would like to show you what I will mark

17 as Exhibit 3/98A, being the English, and B being the

18 B/C/S.

19 MS. HOLLIS: And I would ask that this

20 statement be provided to the witness. And I also have

21 copies for Your Honours. And if any Defence counsel do

22 not have a copy of this statement, it is dated 27, 28,

23 29 April 1995. If anyone needs it, I have that for

24 them.

25 Would you give them both copies, please.

Page 2947

1 Q. Sir, I would ask that you first look at

2 3/98A, and I would ask you, if you look at the first

3 page of that statement, does your signature appear on

4 the first page of that statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if you look at pages 2, 3, 4, and 5, and

7 6, does your signature appear on each page of that

8 statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And, sir, do you recall giving this statement

11 to members of the Prosecution in April of 1995?

12 A. Yes, I remember.

13 Q. And at that time did you answer questions to

14 the best of your recollection?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And did you answer questions truthfully?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was this statement read back to you in a

19 language you understood before you signed the

20 statement?

21 A. No.

22 Q. The statement was not read to you in a

23 language you understand?

24 A. No.

25 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we will pull the

Page 2948

1 statement back, then.

2 Q. Then, sir, tell us: How is it you were able

3 to say that the statement was accurate?

4 A. Well, what I -- I can't say. I cannot say.

5 Q. All right. Thank you.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I beg your

7 pardon. Perhaps the witness is confusing this with

8 another statement that we discussed here. Ms. Hollis,

9 could you be more specific? But I see Mr. Fila on his

10 feet.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis said

12 that she withdraws the statement. If she said that,

13 then I don't think we can continue discussing that

14 statement, if she has withdrawn it. That is my

15 opinion. So why should we go on asking about something

16 that has been withdrawn? Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

18 when Ms. Hollis asked you the question and wanted to

19 know whether before signing this paper that you have in

20 front of you, the paper before you, did somebody read

21 to you in your language that statement before you

22 signed it?

23 A. I just signed the English version.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But before

25 signing the English version -- there we are. You have

Page 2949

1 in front of you -- have you got a B/C/S version in

2 front of you, the document, Witness?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On the

5 ELMO -- no, we've got nothing on the ELMO. Never

6 mind. So what you are telling us is that you signed

7 the English version; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You don't

10 understand English, I take it?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before

13 signing, did somebody translate for you what was

14 written in English?

15 A. Yes. Okay. Yes, but not in written form,

16 not in writing. That's where the misunderstanding

17 arose.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, tell

19 me one more time so that we understand things clearly:

20 Before signing the English version, did somebody

21 translate orally for you and then you signed? Is that

22 how it happened, or not?

23 A. Yes, that's how it happened.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

25 you may continue.

Page 2950

1 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your

2 Honour, with that clarification, the --

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just one

4 moment. I see Mr. O'Sullivan has an objection to

5 make.

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Just a matter of

7 clarification. We now have testimony that he did not

8 have it read back to him in a language he understood,

9 and now he says he did. So you put the same question

10 to the witness as Ms. Hollis. He's answered

11 differently.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No basis to continue --

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

15 Mr. O'Sullivan, if I heard the witness correctly, he

16 said that he did not sign the B/C/S version; he signed

17 the English version. Before signing, nobody gave him a

18 translation, but did the oral translation for him, and,

19 having had that oral translation, he signed. Is that

20 clear, or are there still any obscure points? And the

21 transcript speaks for itself, of course.

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's precisely my point,

23 Your Honour. On page 69 of LiveNote, line 15, the

24 question from Ms. Hollis is this: "Was this statement

25 read back to you in a language you understand before

Page 2951

1 you signed the statement?" Answer: "No." Next

2 question: "The statement was not read to you in a

3 language you understand?" Answer: "No."

4 That's the basis for my arguing that this

5 statement should be withdrawn.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

7 Mr. O'Sullivan, to withdraw the statement, why?

8 I began my intervention admitting the

9 possibility that the witness was not clear on what

10 declaration was meant, and I admitted that, in fact, he

11 did have an English version on the ELMO and a B/C/S

12 version in front of him. Having clarified that, the

13 witness was clear in saying that before signing the

14 English version, he received an oral translation in

15 B/C/S, so he could know what he was about to sign, and

16 therefore ...

17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I can't take

18 the point much further other than to say he had the

19 document in front of him when Ms. Hollis originally put

20 her questions to him. So in my submission, there was

21 no confusion in the mind of the witness.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When I said

23 to Madam Hollis that she could continue, it was to

24 continue her response. I think it is now quite clear

25 from the transcript, so you may continue, Ms. Hollis,

Page 2952

1 your re-examination.

2 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 I would simply have one more question related

4 to this statement, related to the issue of the

5 objection. I would ask that the witness look at the

6 last page of the B/C/S, which should be page 7 of the

7 B/C/S.

8 Q. Witness, the last page of the B/C/S, please,

9 page 7. Page 7, please, if you would turn it to the

10 last page of the B/C/S. The last page of the B/C/S,

11 "Witness Acknowledgement." Do you see that, sir?

12 Does it state: "This statement has been read over to

13 me in the Bosnian language and is true to the best of

14 my knowledge and recollection"? Does it say that?

15 A. Yes, that is what it says.

16 Q. At the bottom of that acknowledgement, does

17 your signature appear?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Where it says "Signed," is that your

20 signature? If you would look again at the English,

21 please.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Does your signature appear on the English

24 statement?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2953

1 Q. Sir, just to make it absolutely clear, are

2 you now telling the Court that the statement was read

3 to you in the Bosnian language and you certified that

4 it was true to the best of your knowledge and

5 recollection?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, sir, if you look at this statement in

8 the Bosnian language --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- does this statement refer to the beating

11 by Tadic and the presence of a man you identify as

12 Vokic?

13 A. As far as I can remember, that came

14 subsequently, but I would have to ...

15 Q. Would you look at the statement and see if

16 the statement includes information about a man you

17 identify as Vokic?

18 A. Yes, it says that.

19 Q. If you look at page 6 of the Bosnian language

20 version --

21 A. Yes, I have it.

22 Q. -- does that indicate that you did not know

23 Vokic from before?

24 A. Yes, that is what I said today, earlier.

25 Q. That another person --

Page 2954

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- indicated Vokic.

3 A. Yes, that is what I said.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have no further

6 questions of the witness.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

8 very much, Ms. Hollis.

9 Judge Wald, please.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Mrkalj, I have only a couple

12 of questions.

13 Apart from the information you got from the

14 security guard whose name you do not wish to reveal

15 publicly -- leave that aside -- what, if any, other

16 indications did you have while you were in the camp

17 that Mr. Kvocka had a role as a superior?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE WALD: What, if any, other

20 indications? Leave the information out that you got

21 from your security guard. Would you just tell us how,

22 if you did, you came to the conclusion that he was some

23 sort of, you used the word, "boss," in your prior

24 testimony?

25 A. One of the indications was that the detainees

Page 2955

1 were talking -- I wasn't present -- that he had

2 addressed a group of detainees and introduced himself

3 as the camp commander. Then another version, mine: I

4 could note by the behaviour and situation in the camp,

5 when the shifts were changing, when the bus would

6 arrive with the new shift and while it was standing

7 parked, the shift leaders would be there.

8 JUDGE WALD: My second question is: You also

9 said that you saw Mr. Kvocka, I believe, early on in

10 the presence of Mr. Meakic at one point, is that right,

11 in the camp? Is that what you testified to?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE WALD: Later on you said that

14 Mr. Meakic was the commander up till two weeks before

15 the camp disbanded in August. How were you able to

16 tell when, in your impression, Mr. Kvocka was the

17 commander and when Mr. Meakic was the commander, or

18 could you tell? If you couldn't tell, that's fine

19 too.

20 A. The difference could be noticed, and I

21 received confirmation from this person and the reason

22 why the change had occurred.

23 JUDGE WALD: Is this person the one that you

24 don't wish to disclose his identity?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2956

1 JUDGE WALD: Well, then, leave that aside for

2 the moment; don't take account of that. Is there

3 anything you observed or heard from other people, other

4 than him, that allowed you to conclude that at one

5 point Mr. Kvocka was the commander, at another point,

6 Mr. Meakic was?

7 A. When the takeover of shifts occurred, Meakic

8 started to be present in the capacity in which Kvocka

9 used to appear. So those differences were quite

10 visible.

11 JUDGE WALD: Can you remember about what time

12 that happened, the shift changes to Meakic from

13 Kvocka? Just approximately what time?

14 A. I cannot remember the exact date, nor did I

15 know the date, but it would be in June.

16 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

17 A. In June.

18 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. As far as the

19 document that you were asked to read parts of by

20 Mr. Simic, let me ask you a couple of questions.

21 Insofar as the people who did the

22 interrogation in the administration building, did you

23 ever observe them around other parts of the camp doing

24 anything with the detainees, or were they, in your

25 observations, confined to just doing interrogations?

Page 2957

1 A. As far as I know, to the best of my knowledge

2 and according to what I saw, they were in the

3 administration premises, that is, the premises for the

4 interrogations.

5 JUDGE WALD: In your observation or

6 knowledge, did you ever see, if you would have known

7 them, members of the mine management, the Omarska mine

8 management -- you were asked to read the portions of

9 the document dealing with their responsibility for

10 meals and cleaning -- did you ever see anybody that you

11 knew to be a representative of the mine management

12 company around the camp?

13 A. No.

14 JUDGE WALD: Would you have known Simo

15 Drljaca if you saw him? I mean, was he somebody you

16 would recognise if you saw him? The person who signed

17 the document that you were asked about, did you know

18 who he was? Would you have recognised him? Did you

19 ever see him or hear that he was at the camp?

20 A. I would recognise him.

21 JUDGE WALD: Did you ever see him or hear

22 that he was at the camp?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE WALD: You saw him at the camp?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 2958

1 JUDGE WALD: Once or several times?

2 A. Just once. That was the most important

3 event, actually.

4 JUDGE WALD: What was that event?

5 A. I beg your pardon?

6 JUDGE WALD: What was that event that you say

7 was the most important event that he was present at?

8 A. Yes. I'm referring to the following event:

9 We were lined up in lines of 30 and we had to sing, and

10 he was present. Then we were ordered to go into the

11 so-called canteen, the kitchen. This was an important

12 event, very important, because that was when there was

13 a massive beating of the detainees going in and coming

14 out of the canteen.

15 JUDGE WALD: All right. You told us about

16 that.

17 My last question is: Who gave the orders to

18 detainees in the regular, everyday? I mean, when the

19 detainees were told to go to lunch or to go to this

20 building or to go to that building, or to stand up or

21 to sit down, who were the people -- not the names of

22 individuals -- but what kind of people were they that

23 gave all the orders to the detainees during everyday

24 life?

25 A. Mostly the guards.

Page 2959

1 JUDGE WALD: That's what I wanted to know.

2 Thank you very much. I'm sorry we have to bother you

3 with so many little questions, but I'm sure you

4 understand that this is the only way the process can

5 work. Thank you.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

7 very much, Judge Wald.

8 I also have a little question because most of

9 the questions have been posed, and that is the

10 advantage of being the last to speak.

11 You mentioned, and you used -- regarding a

12 visit and improvements in the camp, you mentioned that

13 that visit was masked. Could you explain what you

14 meant by the word "masked"? What was masked in that

15 visit?

16 A. I can explain, yes. I can tell you what

17 happened. That was the first time that I saw a quarter

18 of a loaf of bread; that was the first time I got a

19 full plate of food. You see, I was hungry. It was the

20 first time that I saw something like that. This was

21 done for somebody to see that things were fine for us.

22 That was the cosmetic improvements that I was referring

23 to.

24 But that was not the real state of affairs

25 that I have had to read out to you today, without

Page 2960

1 having the ability to comment on what I read. I will

2 tell you the truth. The paper that I read, the piece

3 of paper, it is equal to pieces of paper from the

4 Second World War that were written in camps such as

5 Auschwitz. They can be compared to those.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

7 has that paper got anything to do with the cosmetic

8 improvements that I was asking you about?

9 A. Yes. What I was reading today simply has

10 nothing to do with reality, not a single paragraph; it

11 is just dead letter on paper. And they are trying with

12 these cosmetics to persuade this Court that we were

13 fine, and we were not fine, ever.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are here

15 to establish that, Witness. Witness, thank you very

16 much for coming. You suffered certain health problems,

17 but in any event we wish to thank you and wish you a

18 safe journey home. The usher is now going to escort

19 you out. Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

23 I saw that you were about to get on your feet, and I

24 see you on your feet now.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

Page 2961

1 perhaps this is the moment. Though I had intended to

2 raise another question regarding re-examination of

3 witnesses, we have found a court ruling that supports

4 our position. But the witness has left and we'll leave

5 that for the Status Conference.

6 But I would like to tender into evidence the

7 statements by Edin Mrkalj, on the 27th, 28th, and 29th

8 of April, in 1995, both of which were given after the

9 confirmation of the indictment against Mr. Kvocka and

10 the other accused. So I would like to tender them into

11 evidence. Ms. Hollis was about to do so but she

12 withdrew her proposal, so it is now our proposal that

13 these documents be admitted into evidence.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

15 Ms. Hollis.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Your Honour, perhaps we could take it in the

18 regular order for offering evidence and then we could

19 deal with these issues, if we're now moving into that.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but I

21 gave the floor to Mr. Simic because he was on his

22 feet. Let us follow the order for the offering of

23 documents.

24 Ms. Hollis, therefore. I think that you have

25 some documents to tender, so please do so.

Page 2962

1 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. We had 3/22,

2 which was a photograph of a man in a blue camouflage

3 uniform, and we would offer that into evidence.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are there

5 any objections on the part of the Defence?

6 Ms. Hollis, excuse me for a moment, but I

7 think that we also have the statements of this

8 witness. Are you leaving that opportunity to the

9 Defence?

10 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, you've already been

11 told on the record that the Defence wishes to introduce

12 it. If it's easier, for purposes of marking, for me to

13 introduce it, since I've already marked it, I'll be

14 happy to do so, if that would be easier for keeping the

15 exhibits in order.

16 And I would offer, then, 3/98A, which is the

17 English version of the Office of the Prosecutor's

18 statement taken of Edin Mrkalj on 27, 28, 29 April

19 1995, and 3/98B is the B/C/S version of that statement.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So,

21 Mr. Simic, are there any objections to the admission of

22 these documents into evidence?

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] In view of the

24 fact that Ms. Hollis has proposed the admission -- we

25 were out of order, so we apologise, out of turn. But I

Page 2963

1 speak only on behalf of -- in my own name. We do not

2 object to the admission of the photograph or the

3 statement tendered by the Prosecution. Thank you.

4 JUDGE WALD: I just wanted to clarify one

5 thing, since we had a long discussion previously about

6 the admission -- this is primarily directed to the

7 Defence. I think I know your position quite well,

8 Ms. Hollis. -- as to whether or not entire witness

9 statements should go in or just portions that are

10 relevant to cross-examination or completion of the

11 impeachment process. I understand now that you're

12 agreeing in this case to the whole statement. Well,

13 Mr. Simic is agreeing to the whole statement. Okay.

14 Is that correct? I just wanted to clarify that.

15 You're happy with having the whole statement

16 introduced? You just said so.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. In this

18 case, I agree.

19 JUDGE WALD: All right. Okay.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see

21 Mr. O'Sullivan now. Go on, please.

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: On behalf of the accused

23 Kos, we do not object to the admission of 3/22, the

24 photo. We object to the admission of 3/98A, 98B, for

25 the reasons stated earlier. And we renew our

Page 2964

1 objection -- I will not repeat my submissions, but we

2 renew the objection as to the admissibility of

3 statements in their entirety. Our position is that

4 out-of-court statements used during cross-examination

5 are limited for impeachment purposes only. So 3/98

6 falls into a separate category. We object, in

7 addition, for the reasons stated when this witness was

8 shown the statement.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] First of all,

11 Mr. President, this statement does not refer and does

12 not affect the Defence of Mr. Radic, so I should

13 agree. But for the clarity of the proceedings, I join

14 what Mr. O'Sullivan has said, because that transcript

15 is our transcript. We participate in it. If

16 Ms. Hollis at one point in time withdrew something,

17 then she has done so for good, and that is why I

18 support Mr. O'Sullivan in respect to that point and

19 also in respect to statements in general. But this is

20 not from the standpoint of the defence of Mr. Radic or

21 Mr. Kvocka. And also, Mr. President, I will accept any

22 ruling you may make wholeheartedly -- I want to make

23 that clear -- whatever ruling you make in such

24 situations, but it is a question of legal purity, if I

25 may put it in that way.

Page 2965

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

2 Mr. Tosic.

3 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we

4 do not object to the introduction of this document into

5 evidence by the Prosecution, but in view of the

6 different opinions among Defence teams, and bearing in

7 mind the fact that Ms. Hollis had withdrawn her

8 proposal and that you will make your own ruling about

9 that, the Defence of Zoran Zigic would suggest that the

10 statement be admitted into evidence. Thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

12 very much, Mr. Tosic.

13 Mr. Jovan Simic.

14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

15 the Defence of Mr. Prcac joins in the position of

16 Mr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Fila, and we object to the

17 admission of this statement.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

19 your response to the objections.

20 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Three

21 points, Your Honour.

22 First of all, Your Honour, after the

23 Prosecution indicated it would withdraw the statement,

24 further questions were asked which, it is the

25 Prosecution's submission, indicated that the witness

Page 2966

1 misunderstood what was being asked of him in that he

2 indicated he was being asked if he had been provided a

3 written statement in B/C/S. The witness then went on

4 to clarify that indeed the statement had been read to

5 him in a language he understood and that he had

6 certified that the statement was true and accurate as

7 it was read to him. We believe that in that

8 circumstance the statement can go in.

9 The second point is this: The Prosecution

10 offered, as a matter of keeping the procedural record

11 clean, if you will, to offer this as the number we had

12 marked it, 3/98A and B. Prior to that, Defence counsel

13 for Kvocka had indeed offered the same statement to

14 Your Honours. So that is an independent basis for

15 allowing the statement in.

16 Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, it was

17 Defence counsel for Zigic who introduced the issue of

18 the statement regarding a person by the name of Vokic.

19 And if Your Honours review the statement, you will find

20 that the substance of the statement deals with both

21 Tadic and Vokic and the incident about which Defence

22 counsel for Zigic were questioned. And Defence counsel

23 for Zigic, who were the ones who thought the statement

24 was important to their client, have indicated they have

25 no objection to this statement coming in. We believe

Page 2967

1 that the statement should come in, given all of those

2 remarks that I have just made. There are three bases

3 upon which the statement could come in. Thank you.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could we

6 have some peace for the Judges to consult, please. Can

7 we have a little peace, please. Thank you.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are not

10 in a position to take a decision. Once we are

11 complete, we will take up this discussion and consult

12 with our colleague, Judge Fouad Riad, and we will

13 decide then, as I don't see that the decision is

14 important for continuing of the proceedings now.

15 However, I would like to make a comment. I

16 don't know why the parties who are against the

17 admission into the record -- I'm not talking about this

18 particular case -- are frequently the people who use

19 those same statements. I think that we should be

20 coherent and perhaps discuss this matter in greater

21 depth. Either we follow the principle that what is

22 valid is what the witness says in the courtroom and we

23 forget everything else, or what he said before is

24 important and we have to be consistent and accept it.

25 To function with these double standards, I think, is

Page 2968

1 rather difficult, but I leave it to you as a matter for

2 you to think about. So that is not any instruction by

3 the Chamber; I just wish you to think about it. I

4 think we have to be consistent; that is all.

5 So, Ms. Hollis, what are we going to do now?

6 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution has

7 no further exhibits to offer.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have

9 some more?

10 MS. HOLLIS: No exhibits, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but

12 after that, do you have witnesses?

13 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. I don't know

14 if the Defence have any exhibits to offer. I believe

15 Mr. Simic had some exhibits that he referred to. No?

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. I was

17 thinking that Mr. Simic was referring to those same

18 statements, so I think there are no others that they

19 wish to tender. But I do see that Mr. Tosic has

20 something to say.

21 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to

22 deal with this dilemma, perhaps one could say that this

23 is --

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What

25 dilemma are we talking about?

Page 2969

1 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] I was referring

2 to the admission of this statement into evidence.

3 Because as far as I was able to understand what you

4 said, I don't know whether you are going to agree with

5 the proposition of the Prosecution.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What I said

7 was that we will decide later because Judge Fouad Riad

8 is not present, so we'll make a decision later. Is

9 that clear now?

10 Ms. Hollis --

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

12 Honour. I'm sorry.

13 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we do have another

14 witness. Perhaps it's time to take a break.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

16 indeed. I was thinking of that, only people were

17 asking to speak. Yes, we'll have a half-hour break

18 now.

19 --- Recess taken at 1.01 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

22 seated.

23 Ms. Hollis, can we have the next witness

24 brought in.

25 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour,

Page 2970

1 the next witness will be Sifeta Susic.

2 I would also note for the record, Your

3 Honours, that Mr. Daniel Saxon is at counsel table

4 representing the Prosecutor, and Mr. Saxon will be

5 leading the evidence of this witness.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 May we say welcome to Mr. Saxon.

8 MR. SAXON: [Interpretation] Thank you,

9 Mr. President.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you

12 hear me, Witness?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

15 afternoon. I'm speaking to you. You are now going to

16 read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to

17 hand to you, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

19 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

20 and nothing but the truth.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

24 seated, Ms. Susic.

25 Ms. Susic, thank you for coming here. Do you

Page 2971

1 feel comfortable?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank

3 you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 You are now going to answer questions put to you by

6 Mr. Saxon.

7 Mr. Saxon, your witness.

8 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examined by Mr. Saxon:

10 Q. Madam, what is your name?

11 A. Sifeta Susic.

12 Q. What is the date and the place of your birth?

13 A. The 1st of January, 1949; Prijedor.

14 Q. What was your place of residence until 1992?

15 A. Prijedor.

16 Q. What is your ethnicity?

17 A. I'm a Muslim.

18 Q. Up until April of 1992, where did you work?

19 A. I worked in the Secretariat for Internal

20 Affairs in Prijedor, and it is abbreviated with the

21 letters SUP, S-U-P.

22 Q. When did you commence working at the SUP?

23 A. On the 8th of February, 1971.

24 Q. Prior to April 1992, approximately how many

25 persons worked at the Prijedor SUP?

Page 2972

1 A. Approximately 200.

2 Q. In early 1992, who was the secretary of the

3 SUP?

4 A. Hasan Talundzic.

5 Q. In that position as secretary, did that mean

6 that Hasan Talundzic was the highest ranking person in

7 the SUP?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was the SUP divided into different

10 departments?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. How many different departments?

13 A. There was the crime department, the

14 suppression and supervision of crime, where I worked;

15 then there was the Prijedor Police Station, which

16 included the Omarska Police Station, the Ljubija Police

17 Station, and the Kozarac department, the traffic

18 department; then there was the department for

19 administration matters and the communications

20 department.

21 Q. So all together was the Prijedor SUP divided

22 into three departments?

23 A. Yes, you could put it that way.

24 Q. Did each of these three departments have a

25 chief or a commander?

Page 2973

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. With respect to the police department, was

3 there a central police station for the city of

4 Prijedor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did that Prijedor Police Station have a

7 commander?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was the commander's name?

10 A. Dusan Jankovic.

11 Q. What was his ethnicity?

12 A. He was a Serb.

13 Q. Were there any other police stations in the

14 smaller towns around the municipality of Prijedor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where were those?

17 A. In Omarska, Ljubija, and the department in

18 Kozarac.

19 Q. Did each of these police stations in the

20 smaller communities have a commander?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who did the commanders of the police stations

23 in Omarska, Ljubija, and Kozarac report to?

24 A. The commander of the Prijedor Police Station

25 and the chief of SUP.

Page 2974

1 Q. So, then, was Dusko Jankovic, as commander of

2 the Prijedor Police Station, the police commander for

3 the entire Prijedor municipality?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. With regard to the police station in Prijedor

6 and the police stations in the smaller towns like

7 Omarska, did those police stations have a particular

8 internal structure?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was there a commander?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How else was the structure divided?

13 A. The commander and deputy commander, and

14 perhaps they had assistants but I'm not quite sure of

15 that.

16 Q. Were those police stations divided into

17 different sections?

18 A. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know.

19 Q. In the police station in Prijedor, whether in

20 the town of Prijedor itself or in the smaller

21 communities like Omarska or Kozarac, would there be a

22 traffic section?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would there be a law enforcement section?

25 A. Yes. I apologise. Perhaps I didn't

Page 2975

1 understand the question properly. Were you asking me

2 whether that structure existed in the SUP in the town

3 of Prijedor?

4 Q. I'm speaking simply with regard to the police

5 department itself which had an office, as you

6 explained, in Prijedor and in the smaller communities.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So within the police stations, how were they

9 organised in terms of their structure?

10 A. The police station of Prijedor, at the head

11 of the station was the commander, the deputy commander,

12 and the assistant commander. And the smaller stations,

13 such as the Ljubija Police Station and Omarska Police

14 Station, they had commanders or leaders and deputy

15 leaders; I don't know whether they had assistants or

16 whether they were termed differently. But in the

17 Kozarac department, there was only the commander or

18 leader of the Kozarac department, as far as I know.

19 Q. Have you ever heard the term "patrol sector

20 leader"?

21 A. Yes, I have.

22 Q. What was a patrol sector leader?

23 A. I couldn't really explain that to you.

24 Q. Do you know if the salary of a patrol sector

25 leader differed from that of a regular policeman?

Page 2976

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was the salary of a patrol sector leader

3 higher or lower than that of an ordinary policeman?

4 A. The salaries or personal incomes were higher

5 than the salaries of an ordinary police officer.

6 Q. Do you know if the responsibilities borne by

7 a patrol sector leader differed from those borne by a

8 regular policeman?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How did those responsibilities differ?

11 A. Well, probably he had greater competencies

12 and more complex -- his work was more complex, more

13 responsibilities than an ordinary policeman.

14 Q. When you say "he," Ms. Susic, are you

15 referring to the patrol sector leader?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Ms. Susic, in which department of the SUP did

18 you work?

19 A. I worked in the crime department.

20 Q. And who was your supervisor in the crime

21 department?

22 A. Ranko Mijic.

23 Q. And what was Ranko Mijic's ethnicity?

24 A. He was a Serb.

25 Q. What were your specific duties at the crime

Page 2977

1 department in the SUP?

2 A. I was the clerk for penal files, dossiers,

3 records.

4 Q. And specifically, then, what would you do?

5 What were your specific duties?

6 A. I kept records for all individuals who were

7 sentenced for a crime and were born in the Prijedor

8 municipality.

9 Q. Okay. Ms. Susic, during the course of your

10 work for those 21 years, between 1971 and 1992, did you

11 have occasion to have personal contact with different

12 police officers from the city of Prijedor and from

13 nearby towns?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Why would these different police officials or

16 officers come to see you?

17 A. They would come to check data and information

18 about certain individuals through the records we kept

19 in the crime section so that they knew who they were

20 dealing with, whether he had been convicted and

21 sentenced.

22 Q. Was that in the course of police

23 investigative work?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During your years of service in the Prijedor

Page 2978

1 SUP, what contact, if any, did you have with a police

2 officer named Miroslav Kvocka?

3 A. Yes, I did. He was an employee of the police

4 force, and any time he had to check anything on the

5 ground or he had a request from a work organisation or

6 institution or anything of that kind, he was duty-bound

7 to come and see me and check out the individual, to see

8 whether we had a file or a criminal record on that

9 individual.

10 Q. So how often would you have these kinds of

11 contacts with Mr. Kvocka?

12 A. Endless amounts of time, whenever his work

13 called for it.

14 Q. Did you ever receive requests for information

15 in writing from Miroslav Kvocka?

16 A. Yes. That was standard practice.

17 Q. Where specifically did Miroslav Kvocka work?

18 A. The Omarska police station.

19 Q. Do you know, Ms. Susic, what position

20 Miroslav Kvocka held at the Omarska police station?

21 A. As far as I know, he was the deputy leader of

22 the Omarska police station.

23 Q. Ms. Susic, I'd like to ask you to look around

24 this courtroom and tell the Judges if you can see

25 Miroslav Kvocka here today.

Page 2979

1 A. Looking at it from my direction, from left to

2 right, from the guard, he is the second in order.

3 After the guard, the second man is Miroslav Kvocka.

4 Q. Which row are you referring to, Ms. Susic?

5 A. The last row, sitting between the two guards.

6 Q. I'm sorry. Can you repeat where he's sitting

7 again, please?

8 A. Looking at it from my angle of vision,

9 looking at the last row, on the left-hand side, after

10 the guard, not counting the guard, the second man in

11 order is Miroslav Kvocka.

12 Q. And can you please describe what Mr. Kvocka

13 is wearing?

14 A. A dark blue jacket, a light blue shirt, and a

15 multicoloured tie.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you please sit down now.

17 A. Thank you.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may the record

19 please reflect that the witness has identified the

20 defendant, Miroslav Kvocka.

21 Q. During your years of service in the Prijedor

22 SUP, Ms. Susic, what contact, if any, did you have with

23 a man named Dragoljub Prcac?

24 A. Yes. We worked in the same department, the

25 crime department, for the prevention of crime, in

Page 2980

1 fact. Dragoljub was a crime technician, and my office,

2 for a time, was next to that crime prevention office.

3 Q. So how often would you see Dragoljub Prcac?

4 A. Every day while I was working.

5 Q. Prior to the war in 1992, did Mr. Prcac

6 usually address you by your name, Sifeta?

7 A. No. He always referred to me as Siva. I

8 don't know why.

9 Q. Ms. Susic, can you look around the courtroom

10 today and tell the Judges whether you see Mr. Dragoljub

11 Prcac present today?

12 A. Yes, I can. He is sitting in the row before

13 the last row, in front of the last row, where Kvocka

14 Miroslav is sitting; and looking at it from my angle,

15 after the guard he is the first man. You have the

16 guard first and then Dragoljub Prcac next.

17 Q. When you say "after the guard," do you mean

18 the guard on the left or the guard on the right?

19 A. I said, from where I'm looking, on the

20 left-hand side, moving towards the right.

21 Q. Can you describe what Mr. Prcac is wearing?

22 A. A grey jacket with stripes, pinstripe jacket,

23 a multicoloured tie, and a light shirt -- a patterned

24 tie and a light shirt.

25 Q. Thank you. Ms. Susic, in general, prior to

Page 2981

1 1992, did you have good relations with your Serb and

2 Croat colleagues in the Prijedor Police Department?

3 A. Yes, exceptionally good relations, I might

4 say.

5 Q. When, if ever, did your relations with your

6 Serb colleagues in the Prijedor SUP begin to

7 deteriorate?

8 A. At the beginning of 1992.

9 Q. And what, if anything, did you observe at

10 that time?

11 A. First of all, in my own service, where there

12 were 30 employees, roughly, we lived like one family.

13 But at the beginning of 1992 I noticed when I went into

14 an office where there were several of my colleagues,

15 men and women alike, Serbs, they would stop talking

16 when I came in. They would just stop talking when I

17 came in, and that wasn't the case previously. I felt

18 that I was the odd man out.

19 Q. Ms. Susic, you previously said that your

20 supervisor was a man named Ranko Mijic. What was Ranko

21 Mijic's position at the Prijedor SUP?

22 A. He was the chief of the crime prevention

23 department.

24 Q. And in early 1992, what changes, if any, did

25 you notice in the way Ranko Mijic treated you?

Page 2982

1 A. On one occasion, and I remember it well, I

2 was going to my chief, Ranko Mijic, to sign for some

3 post. I didn't find him. I looked for him in other

4 offices, but the offices were closed. And one of my

5 lady colleagues, Dzevida Jakupovic --

6 Q. Ms. Susic, if I can interrupt you. I'm

7 simply asking you if you noticed a change in the way

8 Mr. Ranko Mijic began to treat you in 1992.

9 A. Well, he seemed to be at a distance suddenly.

10 Q. Would you normally, in the course of your

11 daily duties, go to Ranko Mijic's office during the

12 day?

13 A. Yes, daily.

14 Q. And what changes, if anything, did you begin

15 to notice in 1992 when you would go to Ranko Mijic's

16 office?

17 A. He no longer talked in such a sympathetic

18 way, as he had done in all the previous years.

19 Q. Did you ever enter your supervisor's office

20 when Ranko Mijic was speaking with another group of

21 people?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What changes, if any, did you observe about

24 your treatment at that time?

25 A. As I said, when I would enter an office, and

Page 2983

1 that was frequently, they would keep quiet, they would

2 stop talking, and you could clearly feel -- I felt that

3 they didn't want to speak in front of me.

4 Q. Ms. Susic, when you say "they," what is the

5 ethnicity of the persons you are referring to?

6 A. They were Serbs, and I'm thinking about this

7 group of people who would be in the chief's office or

8 in the office next door.

9 Q. So these were Serb colleagues of yours at the

10 Prijedor SUP.

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Ms. Susic, you stated previously that in

13 early 1992, Hasan Talundzic was the secretary of the

14 SUP for Prijedor. Prior to assuming the position of

15 secretary of the SUP, to your knowledge, did Hasan

16 Talundzic have a lot of experience as a police

17 commander or as an administrator?

18 A. As far as I know, he never worked in any SUP

19 anywhere.

20 Q. To your knowledge, did the Serb members of

21 the Prijedor SUP, particularly the police force, obey

22 the orders of Hasan Talundzic during late 1991 and

23 early 1992?

24 A. When talking to my colleague, Fikret Kadiric,

25 who was the leader for the Travnik police, on one

Page 2984

1 occasion I learned from him, he told me that Dusan

2 Jankovic, the commander of the police station, almost

3 daily was taking a vehicle and going off to Banja Luka,

4 to the security centre there. He also told me that as

5 far as he knew, he was not informing our secretary,

6 Hasan Talundzic, of doing so, which was unthinkable

7 previously; that is to say, before 1992, it was

8 unthinkable.

9 Q. Ms. Susic, who, then, became the effective

10 commander of the Prijedor police force at that time?

11 A. Dusan Jankovic.

12 Q. Ms. Susic, do you recall an occasion in early

13 1992 when Serb forces took over control of a television

14 transmitter on Kozara Mountain.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall if the Prijedor Police

17 Department undertook an investigation of that takeover

18 of the television transmitter?

19 A. I learnt, again from Fikret ^ Kadiric, in an

20 informal conversation, that the transmitter had

21 allegedly been captured by a group of extremists and

22 that a certain group of policemen, on behalf of the

23 Prijedor SUP, was told to go to Kozara and

24 investigate. He also told me that the group was headed

25 by Milutin Vujic.

Page 2985

1 Q. What was Milutin Vujic's ethnicity?

2 A. A Serb.

3 Q. Ms. Susic, to your knowledge, were there any

4 Muslim police officers involved in this investigation?

5 A. No, I don't know.

6 Q. To your knowledge, did control of this

7 television transmitter remain with this group of Serb

8 extremists, as you called them, until the outbreak of

9 the war in 1992?

10 A. Yes, that is how it was.

11 Q. Ms. Susic, I'd like to step backwards for a

12 moment. During your years of service in the Prijedor

13 SUP, what contact, if any, did you have with a police

14 officer named Mladjo Radic?

15 A. Yes, as I did with the other policemen

16 employed in the SUP.

17 Q. How often would you have these kinds of

18 contacts with Mr. Radic?

19 A. As required by his job.

20 Q. Would that be once a year, once a month? Can

21 you give me some kind of an estimate?

22 A. As I said, it was part of his job. Every

23 processing, every check had to start with checking the

24 records which I was keeping.

25 Q. What police station was Mr. Radic assigned

Page 2986

1 to?

2 A. He was in the Omarska Police Station.

3 Q. Was this prior to the start of the war in

4 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Ms. Susic, I'd like to ask you to look around

7 the courtroom once again, and can you tell the Judges

8 whether you can see Mr. Mladjo Radic sitting here

9 today?

10 A. Yes. The last row, as I am looking at it

11 from the left to the right, the first man next to the

12 guard.

13 Q. Can you describe what Mr. Radic is wearing

14 today?

15 A. He has a dark blue jacket, a light blue

16 shirt, and a dark blue tie with some lighter coloured

17 spots on it.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, Ms. Susic, you worked at the

19 Prijedor SUP until what time?

20 A. Until exactly the 8th of April, 1992.

21 Q. What happened prior to the 8th of April that

22 made you decide to leave your job?

23 A. On that day, the 8th of April, about 1.00 in

24 the afternoon, I was carrying the mail to be signed by

25 my superior, Ranko Mijic. I didn't find him in the

Page 2987

1 office so I looked for him in a couple of other

2 offices, which were also locked. My colleague Dzevida

3 Jakupovic told me, "I'll tell you where they are but I

4 know that that will be a cause of concern to you," and

5 she told me that Ranko Mijic and some other colleagues

6 of mine, inspectors and women colleagues, had gone to

7 see Zivko Jovic to celebrate because his wife had had a

8 baby.

9 Q. Why was this news surprising to you?

10 A. It surprised me because throughout the

11 previous 20-year period that I had been working in the

12 SUP, we always used to collect money and I was the

13 person who would collect the money and buy the gift,

14 whenever there was something to celebrate, be it a

15 happy event, if one of our colleagues was celebrating,

16 or if it was a tragic event, if somebody had lost a

17 member of their family. Although I often complained

18 and said, "Why me?" they would say, "But you will do it

19 best." On that occasion, they didn't even ask me to

20 contribute, as was customary, and this hurt me.

21 Q. What happened later that day?

22 A. I waited for them, and indeed after some

23 time, they came back. I remember Ranko Mijic was

24 there, Zivko Jovic, Nebojsa Tomicic, Nebojsa Babic,

25 Darinka Lujic, Nada Markovska.

Page 2988

1 Q. What was the ethnicity of this group of

2 people that returned from the celebration?

3 A. They were Serbs.

4 Q. What, if anything, did you say at that time?

5 A. I addressed Zivko Jovic, whom they had

6 visited, and I asked, "Since when, Zivko, do you no

7 longer entertain Muslims in your home?" and his answer

8 was, "Sifeta, I didn't invite anyone. They came of

9 their own accord."

10 I followed my superior into the office. I

11 put the mail on his table for him to sign; I waited.

12 He was pale in the face and I was shaking. I was

13 almost crying.

14 Q. What, if anything, did you say to your boss,

15 Ranko Mijic?

16 A. I didn't say anything.

17 Q. What, if anything, did you decide to do after

18 that?

19 A. That was close to the end of the working

20 hours. I packed my table, cleared things away, and,

21 like all the other employees, I went home. I couldn't

22 sleep all night; I cried because this really did hurt

23 me very deeply, because I finally realised that I was

24 undesirable among this circle of people who were my

25 friends and colleagues until the day -- until

Page 2989

1 yesterday.

2 In the morning I took the keys, reported to

3 my boss, left the keys on his table and said I was

4 sick. I went to see a doctor and went on sick-leave,

5 and I never again entered SUP, except on the day when I

6 was taken into custody.

7 Q. Ms. Susic, did you make a formal request for

8 leave from your work?

9 A. No. I was on sick-leave, and from the doctor

10 I received the appropriate certificate testifying to my

11 inability to work temporarily.

12 Q. Thank you. After the 8th of April, 1992,

13 when did you next have contact with someone from the

14 Prijedor Police Department?

15 A. This may have been the 10th or the 12th or

16 the 11th of May, I don't recollect the exact date, my

17 boss, Ranko Mijic, called me up on the phone and told

18 me that he had been informed by the head of the SUP,

19 Simo Drljaca, that he should tell all non-Serb

20 employees to come to the building of the iron ore

21 mines, to a meeting. This building was across the

22 street from the SUP. I answered, "Aren't you ashamed

23 not to ask me first how I am? You know that I am

24 sick," and I said, "I am on sick-leave now and I don't

25 know whether I'll be able to come."

Page 2990

1 Q. Ms. Susic, did you go to this meeting?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Who was present at this meeting?

4 A. The new head of the SUP, Simo Drljaca, and

5 some other persons I didn't know who were wearing

6 military uniforms. Among my colleagues who were

7 present, I learnt from them that they were some people

8 from the security service centre in Banja Luka and some

9 military personnel.

10 Q. What, if anything, did the Serb authorities

11 tell you to do?

12 A. They tried to persuade us, to talk to us, to

13 convince us that we should sign loyalty to the Serb

14 authorities.

15 Q. Ms. Susic, when you say "us," who are you

16 referring to?

17 A. I'm referring to employees of Muslim and

18 Croat ethnicity who were present there.

19 Q. Did you decide to sign this loyalty document?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. Why not?

22 A. Because my opinion is that even if the Muslim

23 forces had done the same thing, if they had taken over

24 power in such an illegal manner, I wouldn't have done

25 that either.

Page 2991

1 Q. Do you know if anyone present signed this

2 loyalty document?

3 A. Yes. As far as I know, Nadzija Fazlic did.

4 Q. And do you know the ethnicity of Nadzija

5 Fazlic?

6 A. She's a Muslim.

7 Q. When did you subsequently see Nadzija Fazlic

8 after that day?

9 A. We met at the Omarska camp.

10 Q. Was Nadzija Fazlic detained at that time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Ms. Susic, I'd like to draw your attention to

13 the events of the 24th of June, 1992. Were you

14 arrested on that day?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who arrested you?

17 A. Rade Strika came to my door that day, about

18 7.30. I was still in bed. He knocked on the door and

19 he said, "Sifeta, open. It's Strika." I opened the

20 door, and he said, "Get ready and come with me."

21 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of Rade Strika?

22 A. Rade Strika is a Serb.

23 Q. Was there anyone else with Mr. Strika at the

24 time?

25 A. Yes. A policeman called Stevo Grahovac, who

Page 2992

1 was sitting in the so-called black Marica vehicle in

2 front of my building.

3 Q. And do you know Mr. Grahovac's ethnicity?

4 A. Serb.

5 Q. What was Rade Strika's occupation, if you

6 knew?

7 A. He was a policeman.

8 Q. Did Mr. Strika or Mr. Grahovac tell you why

9 they were arresting you?

10 A. As I was entering the black Marica vehicle, I

11 asked them why they were taking me, and where. And one

12 of them -- I can't remember now who it was -- that

13 said, "We have orders, and we don't know why. We are

14 taking you to the SUP."

15 Q. When you say "the SUP," are you specifically

16 referring to the police station?

17 A. It was the building of the SUP, accommodating

18 both the police station, the crime prevention

19 department, and others.

20 Q. Where specifically did these gentlemen take

21 you?

22 A. They took me to a room behind the duty

23 service, where I think the shift leader used to sit.

24 It was Milenko Sormaz. He was present. I had to give

25 him my ID card. And then he sent me outside to sit on

Page 2993

1 the bench in the corridor and wait.

2 Q. And while you were sitting on the bench in

3 the corridor, did you see any other persons in custody

4 at the police station?

5 A. Yes. When I was entering the building, in

6 the corridor, next to the duty service room, my

7 colleague was standing, Ago Sadikovic, who used to be

8 the head of the department for economic crime in my

9 department.

10 Q. Ms. Susic, what was Ago Sadikovic's

11 ethnicity?

12 A. Ago is a Muslim. Later, while I was sitting

13 there on the bench, Nusret Sivac was brought in,

14 another colleague of mine, who had retired a couple of

15 years prior to that. And also taken into custody was

16 Osman Mahmuljin, a doctor, and several other men that I

17 didn't know, and a woman who was sitting quite close to

18 me on another bench and who was taken together with me

19 to the camp. And I later learnt her name was Tesma

20 Elezovic.

21 Q. And do you know the ethnicity of the members

22 of this group of people that you saw that day, apart

23 from --

24 A. Muslims.

25 Q. And at the time, how were those other

Page 2994

1 prisoners or detainees dressed?

2 A. I remember Ago Sadikovic had a leather jacket

3 on and a striped T-shirt. I shall never forget that.

4 Dr. Mahmuljin, Osman, had a dark blue jacket and a

5 glittering white shirt and tie. I don't know about the

6 others. But they were all dressed as if they had left

7 home for half an hour and they would all be going back

8 home.

9 Q. And what, if anything, did you notice about

10 the condition of these persons?

11 A. Those persons were standing there afraid and

12 lost, just as I felt. My colleagues from work were

13 passing by me, turning their head away from me, whereas

14 I looked them all straight in the eye, because I had

15 nothing to fear. But this was terribly painful, having

16 been so close, such good friends with so many people

17 for so many years and they refused to look at you.

18 At one point in time, someone said that we

19 were going out into the corridor, the yard behind the

20 SUP building. I went too, but Rade Strika, from the

21 steps, from the first or second floor, called out, "Not

22 you, Sifeta. You come back." Only the men were taken

23 out.

24 I stayed in that corridor until 2.00. At

25 about 2.00 -- there was a clock on the wall, and that

Page 2995

1 is how I know it was roughly 2.00 -- Grahovac said,

2 "Come with me." And the woman whose name I later

3 learnt as Elezovic, the two of us went into the yard of

4 the SUP building and there was that same black Marica

5 parked, and the men were being taken out of a room that

6 was used as a detention, for remand detention. Those

7 men had been in quite a normal condition an hour

8 before. They came out black and blue, torn, bloodied.

9 It was terrible to look at. I was pushed into the back

10 part of the black Marica and Stevo Grahovac told the

11 two of us to go and sit next to the doctor. I quietly

12 asked Stevo, "Where are you taking us?"

13 Q. And what was his response?

14 A. He said, "To Omarska."

15 Q. If I can just take you back for a moment.

16 When you refer to the men coming out of the room who

17 were in a beaten condition, are you referring to Ago

18 Sadikovic, Nusret Sivac, and the doctor Osman

19 Mahmuljin, who you had seen in the corridor previously?

20 A. Yes. And other men whose names I don't know.

21 Q. Did the vehicle in which you were in pass

22 through any towns on the way to Omarska?

23 A. Yes. In the vehicle Tomo Stojakovic was also

24 with us -- he's a policeman -- and another man. I know

25 him by the name of Bato. As far as I remember, we went

Page 2996

1 to elementary school together. We first went to the --

2 Q. My question was: Did the vehicle that you

3 were in pass through any towns that you recall on the

4 way to Omarska?

5 A. Yes, I remember. I just wanted to explain

6 things in a little greater detail. We passed through

7 Kozarac on the Prijedor to Banja Luka road.

8 Q. And what did you notice about the condition

9 of Kozarac?

10 A. Actually, it's not the centre of Kozarac.

11 The road is the Prijedor to Banja Luka road. But the

12 houses of that settlement that were next to this main

13 road were all destroyed and just the brick skeletons

14 remained. The roofs were burned down, the windows. It

15 was a terrible sight to see.

16 Q. At that time was there any discussion inside

17 the vehicle that you recall?

18 A. No. Even if there was, I was so upset that I

19 wouldn't have heard or understood anything. I was in a

20 state of shock almost.

21 Q. And approximately what time of day did you

22 arrive at the Omarska camp?

23 A. If we left about 2.00 -- I can't remember

24 exactly. It was in the afternoon. Whether it was 3.00

25 or 4.00 -- I don't know how long the drive takes from

Page 2997

1 Prijedor to Omarska.

2 Q. And who, if anyone, met you at the entrance

3 to the Omarska camp?

4 A. The vehicle, the black Marica, stopped in

5 front of the restaurant. When I got out, Miroslav

6 Kvocka was standing there, my colleague, as I have

7 already mentioned.

8 Q. And do you recall how Miroslav Kvocka was

9 dressed at that time?

10 A. As far as I can remember, he was wearing a

11 camouflage suit, uniform.

12 Q. What, if anything, did Miroslav Kvocka say to

13 you at that time?

14 A. Another man was standing there, dressed in

15 the same uniform. Miroslav said to him, "Return the

16 IDs to these two women and take them immediately to the

17 restaurant."

18 Q. And did the other man do what Miroslav Kvocka

19 had told him to do?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know the name of that other man?

22 A. No, I don't. I just know that he had a dark

23 complexion. He was dark-skinned.

24 Q. Do you know if that other man had a nickname

25 of any kind?

Page 2998

1 A. Later I heard that they called him either

2 Kole or Krle, but I can't say for sure.

3 Q. And did this man known as Krle or Kole escort

4 you to the restaurant?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And as this man escorted you to the

7 restaurant, what happened to the other passengers who

8 had been with you in the van that brought you to the

9 Omarska camp?

10 A. As soon as we got out of the police van, the

11 men were immediately ordered, because there were

12 several other soldiers or guards, or men anyway, there

13 present, they ordered them to lean against the wall of

14 the restaurant with their arms spread out and their

15 palms leaning on the wall, and they beat them

16 immediately. It was a second that I stayed there but

17 they started the beating straight away.

18 Q. Ms. Susic, how far away at that moment was

19 Miroslav Kvocka from the persons who were being beaten

20 against the wall?

21 A. That was right there, straight away. The

22 police van was a couple of metres away from the wall of

23 the restaurant, and they were all standing there. They

24 were all there.

25 Q. How far away was Miroslav Kvocka from the men

Page 2999

1 who were being beaten, approximately?

2 A. Several metres.

3 Q. At that time, did Miroslav Kvocka say

4 anything to the persons who were performing the

5 beating?

6 A. No. I didn't hear him say anything.

7 Q. As the man known as Krle or Kole escorted you

8 to the restaurant area, can you describe what you saw,

9 what you remember?

10 A. Yes. I saw that infamous pista where people

11 were sitting with their heads bowed between their

12 knees. It was a dreadful sight. They hardly looked

13 like human beings.

14 Q. Ms. Susic, do you have any idea how many men

15 were sitting on the pista that day?

16 A. Very many, but I can't give you a number. A

17 hundred, more.

18 Q. If you recall, were the men on the pista

19 moving at all?

20 A. No. The moment that it took me to pass from

21 the police van to the entrance of the restaurant, I

22 didn't notice. This was a very short glance that I

23 cast in that direction. But it was a frightening

24 sight.

25 Q. What was the temperature like on that

Page 3000

1 afternoon in June 1992?

2 A. It was extremely hot.

3 Q. At some point did you eventually enter the

4 restaurant area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who, if anyone, did you see inside the

7 restaurant?

8 A. Yes. Women were there already; I don't know

9 how many, maybe 20 or 25.

10 Q. Do you recall the names of any of these

11 women?

12 A. Yes. I remember Jadranka Cigelj, whom I knew

13 personally, who approached me immediately because I was

14 crying terribly. I was terrified. She consoled me.

15 She whispered, "You'll manage. Look at the rest of

16 us. We're still alive. So you must bear out, as we

17 have. You have to."

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I see by the clock

20 that we have passed 2.30. This would be a logical

21 breaking point for me with my questions.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

23 Mr. Saxon, we are going to accept your logic to

24 adjourn. We are going to have a very long weekend

25 which will be welcome for all of us to have a rest, but

Page 3001

1 also for the witness. I wish you a pleasant weekend,

2 and we'll meet again on Tuesday, at 9.30.

3 As you know, there will be no hearings on

4 Thursday and Friday, only Tuesday and Wednesday, so

5 that everybody knows and that you may plan your own

6 lives as well. Thank you. The hearing is adjourned.

7 Excuse me. I would like the witness to leave

8 first

9 [The witness stands down]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we are

11 now going to adjourn. The hearing is adjourned.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

13 2.33 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

14 the 13th day of June, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.