1 Friday, 9
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be
7 Good morning to everybody. Good morning,
8 ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical
9 booth, to the interpreters; good morning to the legal
10 assistants and court reporters, the Prosecution and the
12 I see that Mr. Jovan Simic has something to
13 communicate. Mr. Jovan Simic, please go ahead.
14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,
15 Your Honour. I apologise for raising this matter,
16 which I think is probably a matter for the Status
17 Conference, but in view of the urgency, I should like
18 to present it now.
19 The fact is the following: My client,
20 Dragoljub Prcac, is in a poor state of health. There
21 are problems which he has had from the beginning of the
22 trial. He has very strong headaches, and it has
23 already been ascertained that he has a very high blood
25 We have tabled a request to the Registrar to
1 enable him to have a medical specialist examination,
2 and we should like to request that in view of his
3 health situation and his age, and to avoid any untoward
4 effects which could slow up these legal proceedings, to
5 enable him to be taken out of the court earlier than
6 the end of the day.
7 The Trial Chamber has tabled a decision that
8 Mr. Prcac should be taken with the other accused,
9 transported with them. This means that he has a
10 problem. He has to wait for two to two and a half
11 hours after the trial proceedings and he is not able to
12 take his medicines and have his therapy and a rest on
13 time, and then he is brought to the Tribunal two to two
14 and a half hours earlier.
15 So I should like to prevail upon this Trial
16 Chamber to either revoke that ruling -- and as we are
17 hearing witnesses, then I don't see that this could be
18 an impediment -- or in some other way to influence the
19 Registrar, because we have tabled a written request
20 along those lines, to enable Mr. Prcac to have his
21 health treated, and this would enable him to attend the
22 court proceedings.
23 Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
25 the ruling was not a ruling of this Trial Chamber but
1 it was a ruling by the Registrar, and I am going to ask
2 the registrar to take note of what Mr. Simic has just
3 said so that steps can be taken to rectify matters.
4 Would you take note of that, Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
7 very much, Mr. Jovan Simic, for bringing that to our
8 attention, this problem, and I'm sure that the
9 Registrar will do everything in her power to remedy the
10 matter. As I say, this is not a ruling of this Trial
11 Chamber, but the Trial Chamber will be making its
12 recommendation along those lines to the Registrar.
13 Having said that, I think that we can have
14 the witness brought in. Is that not so, Madam Hollis?
15 Just one moment, please, Mr. Usher. I think
16 Mr. O'Sullivan would like to say a few words. Let us
17 hear Mr. O'Sullivan first.
18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I note that
19 Judge Riad is not on the bench. We're into day five of
20 his absence. My understanding is that his absence was
21 due to the Celebici appeal which has finished. I
22 believe the hearings are through in Celebici and Judge
23 Riad is still not back. We're now into day five, as I
24 said, of his absence, and under Rule 15 bis (A),
25 paragraph (A) contemplates a three-day absence and
1 we're now into day five.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You
3 are right in so much as the fact that Judge Fouad Riad
4 is not present here in the courtroom, that is quite
5 right. We were working within the frameworks of Rule
6 71 and not 15 bis, and this Rule does provide for
7 various illnesses, that is to say, urgent personal
8 business or illness. If these are not the reasons,
9 then we propose that the parties function under Rule
10 71. The other applied to Rule 15 bis.
11 You are quite right that the Celebici
12 proceedings are not ongoing today, but as you know,
13 they have not been completed yet, and I think they will
14 be continuing into next week. So Judge Fouad Riad, as
15 we all note, is not here; that is quite right. I did
16 not think of that myself.
17 Either we can continue under the same terms
18 that we have functioned in the past, that is to say,
19 governed by Rule 71, or we cannot go ahead. Those are
20 the two options, and I now put them to you. Do you
21 agree that we continue under the same terms that we did
22 in the previous days, the past week? Can we continue?
23 If not, then we'll have to adjourn. What is your
25 Let us hear Ms. Hollis.
1 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution has
2 no objection to continue to operate in the fashion we
3 have been operating the other four days of this week.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What about
5 the Defence?
6 Mr. Krstan Simic has the floor.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
8 we gave our agreement before the beginning of this
9 trial, but I have not had a chance to consult the
10 Defence team of Mr. Kos. The last row agrees that we
11 continue with the proceedings without the presence of
12 Judge Fouad Riad, as we have been doing for the past
13 few days, but I would like to hear the opinions of the
14 Kos Defence team.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Are
16 there any objections? As you know, the Judges' work
17 does not only include work in the courtroom. They have
18 other obligations to attend to as well. But let us
19 hear the Defence. Do they have any objections to
20 make? I see no -- Mr. O'Sullivan.
21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We do not object to
22 proceeding under Rule 71. However, for the record, we
23 state that it is of fundamental importance to have a
24 full Bench, so that all the Judges are present during
25 the trial. And circumstances arise, but we urge the
1 Trial Chamber to make that the exception. And that is
2 our position, that it becomes problematic as we go more
3 and more -- further and further without a full Bench.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any
5 case, Mr. O'Sullivan, I would like to say that if this
6 is a fundamental objection not to continue -- I think
7 this is an exception. Now, would you like to continue
8 nonetheless, or not?
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We will continue. We will
10 accede to that request and repeat that we urge that the
11 full Bench return.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 Thank you.
14 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour, but
15 could we have a clarification for the record? Is
16 Defence counsel saying that they are acceding or that
17 they are, in fact, consenting to this? There is a
18 connotation that is different, and we want the record
19 clear so that it does not become an appellate issue.
20 So if we could have an unequivocal response, we would
21 certainly appreciate that.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So with
23 that nuance, do you accept -- do you accept and
24 accede -- do you accept? You agree and you accept?
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's correct, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
2 for your understanding. As I said from the beginning
3 of the week, the Trial Chamber proposed this manner of
4 proceeding to expedite matters, and having said that,
5 we are going to continue, as all parties are in
6 agreement and accept this.
7 Let me say that I would like to thank you,
8 Mr. O'Sullivan, for drawing our attention to that
10 I think that we are now able to have the
11 witness shown in. Would the usher please do so.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 WITNESS: EDIN MRKALJ [Resumed]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
15 morning, witness. Can you hear me properly?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. I hear you very well,
17 Your Honour.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you feel
19 better today?
20 THE WITNESS: I feel excellent, thank you.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 You're going to continue answering the questions put to
23 you by Mr. Krstan Simic.
24 Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
1 Your Honour.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic: [Cont'd]
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mrkalj. We're going to
4 continue and try and be a bit more efficient.
5 During your testimony you frequently made
6 mention of the rules regulating conduct for members of
7 the police force in performing their duties.
8 A. Yes, I did speak about that.
9 Q. Could you tell the Court, please, the full
10 name of that legal act, those rules and regulations?
11 A. The rules are the rules of conduct and the
12 performance of duty for the public security service.
13 Q. Thank you. When you worked in the public
14 security station of Prijedor, did you have an
15 appointment paper, that is to say, appointing you to
16 your job, work post?
17 A. When I got my job, I received a decision on
19 Q. Over time, did you receive any new decisions,
20 new assignments or duties?
21 In order to speed matters up and to help you,
22 I should like the usher to show a document to the
23 witness. It is Exhibit D8/1, and the English version
24 is D8A/1.
25 Mr. Mrkalj, you have a decision before you
1 which was brought in at the beginning of 1990, when the
2 transformation of the OSUP took place. Did you get a
3 decision like this yourself?
4 A. May I read through this decision?
5 Q. Yes, please do. Go ahead.
6 A. I have read it.
7 Q. Did you receive a decision of this kind as to
8 your employment and duties?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell the Court what your actual
11 work post was, that is, the professional formulation
12 that we have here?
13 A. As far as I remember, in those decisions, the
14 decision said that I was a policeman, a security
15 technician, assigned to the Prijedor Police Station.
16 Q. Can you tell us: In the police service, what
17 organ or which individual was in charge of distributing
18 the employees in the police?
19 A. How do you mean?
20 Q. Well, the structure of the police, from the
21 police chief downwards.
22 A. You mean as far as the work posts were
23 concerned or the assignments?
24 Q. Well, yes. Who gave the members of the
25 police force their assignments?
1 A. I received my assignment in the secretariat
2 by a decision of the ministry. Now, what actual duties
3 I would have, my concrete duties, my commander, the
4 commander of the police station, that was his job to
5 assign me actual tasks and duties.
6 Q. So the ministry determines your work post; is
7 that correct?
8 A. No. You didn't understand me. The ministry
9 sends me to the police station of Prijedor. That is my
10 decision. I was assigned to the police station in
12 Q. Yes. So that is your status; your work post
13 was there?
14 A. I was assigned to assignments and duties
15 within the Prijedor local police station.
16 Q. Well, the ministry didn't tell you that you
17 would be a technician for security?
18 A. But I already was. That was the training
19 that I received at school.
20 Q. You worked in matters of security.
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And then you got a decision. You were given
23 a written decision saying that you would be working as
24 a policeman in security matters.
25 A. Well, that was work that is part of my job.
1 Q. Well, thank you. Yes.
2 You also spoke about disciplinary measures,
3 and you passed over that very speedily.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We can have
5 this document returned now.
6 Q. In the legal system from which the two of us
7 have come, did different disciplinary -- was
8 disciplinary action taken in different ways? Did
9 different disciplinary procedure exist?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. For example, disciplinary action within a
12 firm, a company, a public security station? Did they
14 A. Well, disciplinary action was taken.
15 Q. What about disciplinary action with
16 disciplinary courts before magistrates? Were cases
17 filed there, and the basic criminal courts, depending
18 on the seriousness of the crime in question?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said that policemen too, just like every
21 other individual, were subject to disciplinary
22 responsibility and disciplinary proceedings if they
23 committed an offence violating one of the laws and
24 regulations, depending on the competencies of the
25 different organs we mentioned; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let us now speak about disciplinary action
3 within the police organisation, the public security
4 station. Were you ever a member of any disciplinary
5 committee during your work in the police force?
6 A. No, I was not.
7 Q. During your work in the police force, was any
8 disciplinary action taken against you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In disciplinary action and procedure in the
11 police force, who is authorised to punish a policeman
12 for an offence of any kind and violating his duties as
13 a member of the police force?
14 A. As far as I remember, there was a set
16 Q. Who decides on punishment? Who brings in the
17 decision to punish a policeman when this procedure,
18 this prosecuting procedure, and disciplinary procedure
19 is put into force?
20 A. Could you explain what you mean by "punish,"
21 "punishment"? What do you mean?
22 Q. Well, let me put it this way: There's a
23 disciplinary action brought against a policeman
24 because, for example, he was drunk when on duty. It
25 was ascertained that he was drunk and he is punished
1 for that because he has violated the rules which you so
2 keenly stipulated. So who is the individual who says
3 that that member of the police force is guilty, and for
4 being guilty he is punished in such a way with a
5 disciplinary measure? Who takes that decision in the
6 police force?
7 A. Well, in case of an offence of that kind,
8 when the facts are ascertained, it is the superior, the
9 superior officer who decides on punishment.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Asked by Ms. Hollis
11 about a concrete, specific question, where somebody was
12 killed as a result of an action, according to the
13 standards that prevailed in the police force and the
14 legal system, did that imply -- a man is dead; does
15 that imply criminal proceedings or a disciplinary
17 A. No, criminal proceedings.
18 Q. So for violations of that kind, criminal
19 proceedings are initiated; that is what you said.
20 Thank you very much.
21 Let us go back for a moment to your own
22 experiences in those days. You said that you stopped
23 working in the police, or rather the public security
24 station, to be quite precise in our terminology, on the
25 10th of April, 1992.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As far as I remember, the chief of the public
3 security station at the time was Hasan Talundzic. Did
4 you in any way inform any of your superiors that you no
5 longer wanted to work in the police? Did you submit a
6 request for termination of employment?
7 A. I personally remember what I said. I said
8 that on the 10th I stopped working, which means that I
9 appeared at the station and said that I was on
10 sick-leave, and after that I no longer appeared at
12 Q. Did you officially open sick-leave with the
13 competent medical institution?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. According to the rules and customs in force
16 at the end of the month of April, did you bring to your
17 office medical reports to justify your absence and for
18 your salary to be calculated accordingly?
19 A. I didn't bring any certificate. From the
20 moment I went on sick-leave, I was on sick-leave, so
21 should there be any changes in the sense of me
22 recovering, I would automatically have to come to
23 work. But from that date on, I was registered as being
24 on sick-leave.
25 Q. If I understood you correctly, and I think I
1 did, it follows from what you said that in the system
2 in force at the time, it was sufficient to say, "I'm on
3 sick-leave" and you're on sick-leave, without having to
4 bring any kind of certificate or report that goes into
5 your files certifying this sickness.
6 A. I did bring a certificate and handed it in
7 regarding the beginning of my sick-leave.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you. From the 10th of
9 April on, you kept your personal weapons, an automatic
10 rifle and a pistol; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know a policeman called Aziz
14 A. Yes, I knew him.
15 Q. Was he a member of the public security
16 station of Prijedor?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did he work in one of the departments, or was
19 he attached to the central police station?
20 A. As far as I can remember, he worked in the
21 Ljubija police station department.
22 Q. Very well. Do you have any information
23 saying that Mr. Aliskovic participated in an incident
24 in the second half of May in the Prijedor
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was it?
3 A. It was an incident at a checkpoint in the
4 village of Hambarine. As the house of Aziz Aliskovic
5 was about 100 metres from the checkpoint, his name was
6 linked to that incident. Then an ultimatum was
7 addressed to him demanding that he surrender.
8 Q. Who organised that checkpoint close to
9 Mr. Aliskovic's house, where the incident occurred?
10 Was it a checkpoint of the legal authorities?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who organised it?
13 A. The public security station of Prijedor.
14 Q. Were you on duty in that period at that
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were there any casualties in that incident,
18 and deaths?
19 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
20 Q. Do you know whether the Prijedor Public
21 Security Station instituted disciplinary, and later
22 criminal proceedings against Mr. Aliskovic, who was
23 suspected of having participated in the incident when
24 two or three persons were killed?
25 A. No. The procedure was instituted by the Serb
1 Democratic Party and its headquarters, by its
2 propaganda over the radio.
3 Q. I'm talking about the Prijedor Public
4 Security Station, the legal one, not the Serb
5 Democratic Party. Three men were killed. Doesn't this
6 imply the obligation of the public security station,
7 not the Serbs, to institute an investigation, and if
8 Mr. Aliskovic is found to be guilty, to punish him?
9 A. The Serb side took over power, so the public
10 security station stopped functioning, and thereby there
11 was no possibility of establishing the actual state of
12 affairs, the facts of the case.
13 Q. But a moment ago you told me that the
14 checkpoint was established by the Prijedor Public
15 Security Station, and that is why I'm asking you.
16 A. The checkpoint had been established much
17 earlier, before the Serb takeover.
18 Q. Well, talking about that, when did the Serb
19 side take over power in Prijedor?
20 A. As far as I can recollect, at the beginning
21 of May.
22 Q. Regardless of the fact that you were on
23 sick-leave, you moved about, and so on. Were you
24 present at a large rally of members of the police or
25 members of the Prijedor Public Security Station,
1 chaired by Mr. Hasan Talundzic, on the 29th of April,
3 Let me help you. The meeting was motivated
4 by the security situation and the situation in the
5 public security station itself. That was the reason
6 for the meeting.
7 A. I can't remember.
8 Q. Thank you. Still in this area of
9 questioning, could you tell the Trial Chamber whether,
10 at the end of May, there was an armed conflict in the
11 town of Prijedor itself?
12 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam
15 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, perhaps that
16 question could be rephrased. The existence of an armed
17 conflict is a legal determination. Perhaps it could be
18 phrased in more factual terms as to what occurred.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.
20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
21 in the course of the month of May that year, a most
22 unfortunate one, I can call it, for the whole region,
23 many things occurred -- there was a conflict in
24 Hambarine; there was another one -- and that is why I
25 wanted the witness to tell us. I accept the
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
3 Mr. Simic, you said that many facts occurred. Well,
4 put your question in those terms, what took place.
5 Don't ask for conclusions. You need several steps to
6 get to that point.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. What happened at the end of May?
10 A. Could you repeat the question?
11 Q. Did anything happen at the end of May in the
12 town of Prijedor itself?
13 A. As far as I can remember, there was an
14 incident when the Serb army killed four civilians from
15 the village of Brezicani, Prijedor municipality. That
16 incident occurred -- I remember that -- an armed
17 incident against unarmed civilians who were coming back
18 from the fields on a tractor.
19 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, my question related to the town
20 itself. That is why I phrased my question as I did.
21 And I apologise to Ms. Hollis.
22 A. The area where the crime occurred belongs to
23 the municipality of Prijedor.
24 Q. In the course of the night, were there any
25 military actions of larger proportions?
1 A. As far as I can recollect, it was in
2 response, by to me unknown persons, that a conflict
3 occurred in Prijedor. But what actually happened, I
4 don't know.
5 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, did you participate in that
7 A. What conflict?
8 Q. The one you just described.
9 A. I said I heard about it.
10 Q. Very well. Thank you.
11 When did you hand in your weapons to the
12 public security station in Prijedor?
13 A. When that was demanded of me.
14 Q. On what date?
15 A. As far as I can recollect, I think it must
16 have been the 1st of June.
17 Q. Who asked you to hand in your weapons, and in
18 what way?
19 A. The night before, a reserve policeman came
20 and conveyed to me the message that the authorities
21 requested that I appear at the public security station
22 in Prijedor with my personal weapons. When I asked him
23 what would happen if I do not appear, he answered, "You
24 know what happened in Hambarine, when Aliskovic did not
25 surrender." I had very little time to think things
2 Q. And knowing the situation, did you take the
3 weapons or not?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. What happened that day when you brought your
6 weapons, to the public security station, of course?
7 A. When we reached the station, I was searched,
8 my personal belongings were seized from me, and I was
9 taken to the first floor, to the crime department, for
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
12 we are being told that it is not possible to
13 distinguish between the questions and answers, so could
14 you please make a break between your questions and the
15 answers. Because you're speaking the same languages,
16 and the interpreters are having difficulty in following
17 the questions and the answers.
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. On that occasion did you make the normal,
20 regular, standard statement?
21 A. What do you mean?
22 Q. On that occasion did you make a statement in
23 the police station of Prijedor to one of the
24 investigators, or inspectors, as we used to call them?
25 A. There was an interrogation. And when I say
1 "interrogation," that also implies what you're asking.
2 Q. Who questioned you?
3 A. Members of the crime service of the public
4 security station.
5 Q. Do you know their names?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. What were their names?
8 A. There were several of them. Mira Jankovic,
9 Nenad Lakic, Gostimir Modic, and there was another
10 person whom I didn't know. I think that he had fled
11 from Croatia, where he used to work in the Ministry of
12 the Interior, SUP.
13 Q. On that occasion was any kind of report drawn
14 up? Did you sign anything?
15 A. They questioned me for about three hours,
16 they took notes, but I was not given anything to sign.
17 Q. What did you tell them?
18 A. I told them the -- I answered the questions
19 they put to me.
20 Q. But can you tell us the gist of those
21 questions and answers?
22 A. Could you make that clearer?
23 Q. What were they in interested in?
24 A. They were interested in the situation in the
25 area I came from.
1 Q. Linked to the harvest or actions or arming?
2 A. There were a great many questions; many,
4 Q. Thank you. You were transferred to Omarska.
5 When and how?
6 A. I was first imprisoned.
7 Q. You spent a night there. After that night
8 you were transferred to Omarska.
9 A. Could you please give me a question rather
10 than a statement? It would be easier for me to give
11 you answers.
12 Q. When did you go to Omarska?
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
14 Mr. Simic, I apologise, but I think that the witness
15 has answered that question during the
16 examination-in-chief. Perhaps you could put your
17 questions directly, and in that way you would get a
18 direct answer maybe. Because the witness has already
19 explained what happened to him. So please put a direct
20 question to the witness, if possible, Mr. Simic.
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
22 it is true that according to the transcript and my own
23 notes, he did talk about this, but there are reasons
24 why I wish to refer back to these events, and that is
25 why I would like the witness to answer questions which
1 we consider to be very important for us, and in view of
2 the examination-in-chief of Ms. Hollis.
3 Q. By what means were you transported to
5 A. By bus.
6 Q. Was it a bus carrying other prisoners, or
7 something else?
8 A. Members of the crime service.
9 Q. So let's speed things up. You reached
10 Omarska. Could you, at least roughly, tell us how you
11 moved about from your arrival in Omarska until you
12 left? In which building were you placed and in what
13 time periods?
14 A. It is very hard for me to tell you with any
16 Q. But I said roughly.
17 A. What does "roughly" mean?
18 Q. Approximately where were you held upon your
19 arrival in Omarska and how much time did you spend
20 there, to make it simpler.
21 A. I was -- for the first few days, I think
22 until the 6th, if I remember well, I was in this
23 building here. Can I point? This building
25 Q. Is that the hangar?
1 A. Yes, the hangar.
2 Q. So for the first few days, until the 6th, you
3 were in the hangar?
4 A. Yes, as far as I can recollect.
5 Q. After the hangar, where were you?
6 A. At the pista.
7 Q. How much time did you spend there?
8 A. As far as I can remember, about 40 days,
9 something like that.
10 Q. During your testimony you spoke about the
11 transportation of other prisoners. You arrived in
12 Omarska on the 6th. Did you personally, after the 6th,
13 see, in view of where you were held, the arrival of
14 buses or other means of transportation bringing in
16 A. Yes, when I was at the pista. I was at the
17 pista. I could see.
18 Q. So after the 6th you are saying that buses
19 with prisoners came to Omarska?
20 A. I didn't say buses. Could you please put
21 your question in concrete terms? I don't know what you
22 want me to say.
23 Q. I want you to tell us the truth.
24 A. I am telling the truth.
25 Q. So let me rephrase and simplify the
1 question. Did you personally see the bringing in of
2 new prisoners after your detention and after you left
3 the hangar?
4 A. Yes, from the pista I could see perfectly
6 Q. I didn't say whether you could see it; I said
7 whether you did see it.
8 A. Yes, I did see.
9 Q. What did you see?
10 A. Persons being brought in.
11 Q. In what way?
12 A. They were brought in in an official vehicle,
13 the so-called Marica, black Marica.
14 Q. During your testimony you reached the point
15 when you were questioned, when you were interrogated,
16 but you didn't tell us at all whether you were
17 interrogated or not.
18 A. Yes, I was. I was interrogated many, many
20 Q. When were you interrogated for the first
22 A. When I was first brought in, the first day.
23 Q. Were you taken from the vehicle immediately
24 to the first floor of the administration building?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like
2 to ask the usher to show Exhibit 3/77P, a sketch of the
3 administration building, so that we can be a little bit
4 more precise, as this is something we have not touched
5 upon at all.
6 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, you have a sketch in front of you
7 of the administration building, the first floor of that
8 building, where those interrogations took place. In
9 which room were you interrogated the first time? You
10 put it at the 2nd of June, 1992.
11 A. I don't know for sure but I know it was on
12 the right-hand side. But which one, I don't know.
13 Q. When you were interrogated for the second
15 A. It was another room and another group of
17 Q. Sorry. When you were interrogated for the
18 first time, who were the interrogators?
19 A. There were two inspectors, as they said, whom
20 I didn't know, and they introduced themselves as people
21 who used to have the same job in the Republic of
22 Croatia, in the area of Pakrac. I could not identify
23 them; they didn't give me their names. The first
24 question they asked, they said, "Your answer to our
25 first question will decide your fate, whether you will
1 survive or not."
2 Q. Did they have any notes about the
3 interrogations with you in the public security station
4 in Prijedor of the 1st of June?
5 A. They had a lot of papers on the basis of
6 which they questioned me.
7 Q. When were you interrogated for the second
9 A. Very shortly after that, almost daily, until
10 the actual trial, when the Serb court, they organised a
11 kind of trial at the end of all those interrogations; a
12 Serb court, that's what they said, of the Serb
13 Republic. I remember they gave me a defence counsel;
14 unfortunately, he was worse than the prosecution.
15 Q. Where was this trial organised?
16 A. It was organised in the administration
18 Q. On the first floor?
19 A. Yes. Yes, on the first floor.
20 Q. Could you tell us in what room? You have the
21 sketch in front of you.
22 A. I was taken to the first floor. By then
23 already I had to look down, and this was very strict.
24 You couldn't look left or right; you had to look at
25 your own feet. Then I think we were taken to the large
1 room to the right, but anyway, I had to look down all
2 the time. I was placed in a chair --
3 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, during those frequent
4 interrogations, did anyone you knew among the
5 inspectors, people who used to work in the Prijedor
6 Public Security Station, interrogate you?
7 A. On the umpteenth occasion --
8 Q. If you don't know, you don't have to tell
10 A. I remember there was this Nenad Lakic, a
11 former colleague of mine and then --
12 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you what penalty or
13 punishment they brought against you?
14 A. I was told at the end of the trial, because
15 there was a typist who was typing down everything, and
16 I was told at the end -- I was asked, do I want to
17 sign, do I want to sign. I had no choice. I said I
18 would sign.
19 Q. What?
20 A. What she was typing and the questions that
21 they were asking me about, general questions about
22 everything. But the verdict, I wasn't told. They
23 called a guide, who would take people back, to take me
24 away, and I did.
25 Q. Do you know who your defence attorney was?
1 A. Yes, I do. His name was Triso, Triso from
3 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, I understand and know about the
4 time when you were detained and the time that has
5 elapsed. But can you tell us with any certainty,
6 indicate any one of the rooms that you went into? If
7 you can't, you can't.
8 A. I told you, I was questioned on a number of
9 occasions and in several different rooms. But the
10 system was to disorientate one, so for a time I was
11 sure it was the first or the second room on the right,
12 and then those on the left were a bit larger, and so
13 on --
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mrkalj. Let us now go on to
15 the one but last area.
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like
17 to ask the usher to have the witness shown document
18 D17/1 and to have D17/1A be given to the Prosecution
19 and the Trial Chamber so that they can follow.
20 Q. You have the text in front of you.
21 A. It's not very legible; I can't read
23 Q. We'll read it together. Mr. Mrkalj, during
24 your testimony, when you came to the identification
25 process, you recognised Mr. Simo Drljaca; you spoke
1 about him. Now, tell us, who was Simo Drljaca?
2 A. He was the man who came to replace the chief
3 of the Prijedor Public Security Station.
4 Q. In the territory of Prijedor municipality,
5 did a Crisis Staff of the Prijedor municipality
6 function at all?
7 A. When do you mean?
8 Q. We are talking about May, when Mr. Drljaca
9 became chief of the security station.
10 A. You mean the Serbian Crisis Staff?
11 Q. Very well. The Serbian Crisis Staff of
12 Prijedor municipality. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Drljaca, as the chief of the public
15 security station, was he a member of that Crisis Staff?
16 A. As far as I recall, yes, he was.
17 Q. What competencies or authority did the
18 Serbian Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality have?
19 A. I can't really tell you that. I don't know
20 what they had in their documents and acts.
21 Q. And in practice?
22 A. How do you mean "in practice"?
23 Q. Did they make any statements, anything of
24 that kind? Did you happen to hear that via the media?
25 A. Yes, on the radio.
1 Q. Did you know Mr. Drljaca?
2 A. I met him, yes.
3 Q. You have before you a document and we'll read
4 through it together, the sections that we want to
5 comment. We'll skip over the heading and we'll go on
6 to "Centre of Security Services of Banja Luka, the
7 Public Security Station of Prijedor, Strictly
8 Confidential, number 11-12-20." The date is the 31st
9 of May, 1992, that is, two days before you were brought
10 to Omarska.
11 In the introduction it states as follows:
12 "With a view to the speedy and effective establishment
13 of peace on the territory of Prijedor municipality, and
14 in accordance with the decision of the Crisis Staff, I
15 hereby order the following," and after that it goes on
16 to state -- that is to say, let us turn over the page,
17 and on page 3 it says: "Chief of the Public Security
18 Station, Simo Drljaca." Page 3. There is a stamp as
20 A. Who is doing the questioning now, you or the
21 man sitting next to you?
22 Q. I am putting the questions to you and I am
23 assisted by my colleague.
24 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
25 Q. On page 3, is there a stamp and does it say
1 "Chief of the Public Security Service, Simo Drljaca"?
2 A. That's what it says, yes.
3 Q. Is this an order, as you said yesterday, by
4 the number one man in the public security station of
6 A. For me, this is nothing.
7 Q. I am speaking about the document from the
8 aspects of the way I have read it out. Is it an order
9 or --
10 A. I cannot comment on the aspects.
11 Q. We are talking about the order itself, the
12 document itself. We'll come to the various points in
13 that order.
14 A. Well, I can't comment.
15 Q. Would you yourself please read out point 6 of
16 this order.
17 A. You want me to read it out?
18 Q. Yes, please, you read it out. You have it in
19 front of you. You don't have to read it aloud; you can
20 read it to yourself.
21 A. I have read it.
22 Q. Is that an order by the chief of the public
23 security station to the department of the Omarska
24 police station to provide security -- let us use the
25 term "camp" -- to provide security for the camp?
1 A. That's what it says.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Let us now read point 3
3 because it concerns individuals that you knew, or I'll
4 read it and you can follow it for purposes of the
6 [As read] "The further work and selection of
7 detained individuals will be continued by a mixed
8 committee of inspectors of national, public, and
9 military security who must be organised according to
10 this same mixed principle. For their work, the
11 responsible individuals are Mirko Jesic, Ranko Mijic,
12 and Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic."
13 Mr. Mrkalj, is that an order to three
14 services -- the main security service, public security
15 service, and military security service -- to perform
16 certain investigations, and that this order appoints
17 individuals on behalf of all of these -- that is to
18 say, from all of these departments?
19 A. That is what it says.
20 Q. Do you know Ranko Mijic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was he? What was his function in the
23 public security service?
24 A. He was chief of the crime department.
25 Q. Do you know Mr. Jesic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was he?
3 A. He worked in matters of state security, as
4 far as I recall.
5 Q. Do you know Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic?
6 A. I'm not quite sure.
7 Q. I should now like to ask you to look at point
8 7, paragraph 7 of the order, which is on page 2. And I
9 read as follows: "The mine's Management shall
10 organise --"
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
12 you needn't repeat the document. We have the document
13 in front of us. You can just ask the question. We
14 have the document, the witness has the document, so why
15 read the document?
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Well, I
17 thought that by this we would save time because I would
18 have --
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Give
20 the witness a little time to read the paragraph himself
21 and then go on to asking your question.
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank
23 you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Would you read sentence 1 of paragraph 7.
25 Mr. Mrkalj, I see you've read it.
1 A. Well, you see, I haven't read it. You can't
2 see well. I see that you don't see very well because I
3 haven't read it. The word "u koju" is written
4 separately, two words. But, yes, I have completed
5 reading now.
6 Q. Is this an order to the mine's management of
7 Ljubija to organise meals in conformity with the
8 members of the military quartermaster service?
9 A. That's only what it says on paper.
10 Q. Please go on to read the second sentence of
11 paragraph 7 so that we can wind this up.
12 A. This is a catastrophe.
13 Q. I expect an answer, Witness, not a comment.
14 Is it an order that the Mines' Management should
15 organise a regular cleaning of the compound and
16 everything else?
17 A. Yes, that is what it states.
18 Q. I should now like to ask you to read
19 paragraph 11 on that same page.
20 A. It says here --
21 Q. Very well. You've read it, then.
22 A. I haven't read it, because I can't see the
23 number. I can't see what time it says.
24 Q. It says 1200 hours.
25 A. In my text it says "unit," and then there's
1 nothing else, so I can't find my way.
2 Q. Is this an order that the Security Services
3 coordinators are duty-bound every day, at a particular
4 hour, to send in a report to the chief of the Prijedor
5 Public Security Station?
6 A. That is what it says here.
7 Q. Who are the coordinators? And if you haven't
8 remembered, we can go back to paragraph 3 on page 1 to
9 remind you.
10 A. What do you want me to answer now?
11 Q. Are the coordinators Mr. Jesic, Mr. Mijic,
12 and Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic? Were they them,
13 the coordinators?
14 A. Well, we already said that.
15 Q. Very well. Thank you.
16 To whom is this report sent? Give us his
17 name. The chief of the Prijedor Public Security
18 Station, what was the chief's name?
19 A. Simo Drljaca.
20 Q. Thank you. Now read, if you will, paragraph
21 12 of that same order.
22 Mr. Mrkalj, according to this order, is it
23 also the duty of the chief of security to proceed in
24 the same manner with respect to the functioning of the
25 Security Service?
1 A. Would you let me read through it, please?
2 You seem to be in a hurry.
3 Q. No, I'm in no hurry at all. Take your time.
4 Read it through at your leisure.
5 A. I've read the paragraph.
6 Q. Let me repeat: Is that also an order to the
7 chief of security that he is duty-bound to proceed in
8 the same way with security matters?
9 A. That's what it says.
10 Q. Very well. That's what it says, then. And
11 to wind up now, I should like to ask you to read
12 through paragraph 17 of the same order very carefully.
13 A. I've read it.
14 Q. Is this an order that the control and
15 supervision of the execution of this order shall be
16 performed by the police chief, Dusan Jankovic?
17 A. I can only note that that is what it says
19 Q. Now, on page -- on the same page, Mr. Mrkalj,
20 staying with that page. In the police, in our legal
21 system, when a legal act is sent out to anybody, an
22 order, decision, or any similar document, does it state
23 to whom -- the addressee, as to whom these documents
24 are sent? Is that also stipulated?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. Thank you. I heard you say yes. And in that
2 sense, I should like to ask you to read what it says
3 after paragraph 17. It says: Sent to -- copies sent
4 to --
5 A. It says here "1. Crisis Staff," et cetera.
6 Q. Very well. The Crisis Staff. So copies are
7 sent there; right?
8 A. Well, you told me to read through it.
9 Q. Very well. Yes, please continue.
10 A. Now there are the coordinators.
11 Q. It says "security services coordinators."
12 A. I can't see what it says next.
13 Q. In my document it is the CBS Banja Luka.
14 Then we have the police chief. Who is the police
15 chief, in conformity with paragraph 17? Dusan
16 Jankovic; is that it?
17 A. Well, it says what it says. Somebody wrote
18 that, so that's what it says.
19 Q. Jankovic, Dusan. Next it says "security
20 chief." Does it say that?
21 A. That's what it says.
22 Q. Does it say "General Manager, RJR, the
23 Ljubija Iron Ore Mines"?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Does it say "files" or "archives"?
1 A. It does.
2 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, is this document, this act, with
3 clear-cut instructions, was it sent to those
4 individuals who are duty-bound to act upon it?
5 A. Yes, that's what it says. Now, I don't know
6 what --
7 Q. Very well. Thank you. It says that copies
8 were sent to the commander. Does it say the commander
9 of the camp?
10 A. No, it does not.
11 Q. May I hold your attention for one moment
12 longer on paragraph 11 of this same document.
13 A. Yes, very well.
14 Q. To whom did all these individuals have to
15 submit reports?
16 A. To the chief. To the chief of the public
17 security station.
18 Q. Thank you. When we spoke about reports and
19 who tables reports, is the term "commander," "lead
20 deputy," does it say they submit reports to the chief
21 of the public security station in any way?
22 A. In these papers, you mean?
23 Q. Yes, in these documents, in the document
24 we're looking at.
25 A. No, it does not.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mrkalj. Yesterday -- rather,
2 the day before, in your testimony you mentioned that
3 you have certain repercussions with respect to your
4 health and that you have had dealings with
5 psychiatrists, psychologists. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Could you tell us what kind of -- what the
8 manifestations of your illness or the consequences of
9 what you have suffered are?
10 A. My psychological state is very difficult, and
11 it was brought on as a consequence of what happened in
12 the camp.
13 Q. Yes, but could you tell us how this is
14 manifested? Will you wait for me to finish? The
15 Judges have been drawing my attention to ask concrete
16 questions, so I'm asking you about the manifestations.
17 A. Nobody has yet warned me.
18 Q. Well, we were warned earlier on and you were
19 asked to answer my questions.
20 A. So you were cautioned, not me.
21 Q. I think both of us were cautioned.
22 A. Well, I have every respect for the work you
23 do, and the consequences of the camp and what happened
24 in the camp are as follows: The day before yesterday
25 you witnessed a very -- quite an unusual event which
1 took place here, and I see that everybody was present
2 during the identification of accused, of a witness.
3 When I turned around and had to point out the real
4 name, I had a terrible scene conjured up in my mind,
5 come to mind.
6 Q. I'm not asking you that. We completed that
7 question. I'm just asking you the manifestations of
8 your health condition.
9 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I object to this
10 intervention. I believe that the witness was answering
11 exactly what was asked, the consequences, and he was
12 explaining what occurred in his mind when he looked.
13 So I believe indeed he was answering a question. I
14 would ask the Defence counsel to allow him to complete
15 the answer.
16 THE INTERPRETER: We were not getting the
17 interpretation. I do apologise.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can the
19 Defence counsel hear now? Yes?
20 Mr. Simic, a response to Ms. Hollis'
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
23 I asked the witness to say what he has been treated
24 for, the symptoms that he has been treated for, and not
25 to go back to a scene that has already passed. And
1 Ms. Hollis can go back to it, of course, during her
2 re-examination, but I here and now am interested in the
3 diagnosis, in what Mr. -- I beg your pardon -- what
4 Mr. Mrkalj's diagnosis is.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
6 the same question was raised by Ms. Hollis the day
7 before yesterday, the consequences. The same question
8 was raised the day before yesterday by Ms. Hollis, what
9 the consequences are. Now, what is your precise
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Well, I
12 withdraw my question.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, if
14 you want to ask the witness what the consequences are,
15 you are asking exactly the same question that
16 Ms. Hollis asked.
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the
18 question in view of the fact that Ms. Hollis has
19 already posed it, and I have completed my
21 Thank you, Mr. Mrkalj, for your assistance.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 Thank you, Mr. Simic. Mr. Fila, I think that this
24 would be an opportune moment to take a break.
25 We rise for half an hour.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.57 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be
5 Mr. Jovan Simic, is there a problem?
6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
7 concerning the problem we raised prior to the break, we
8 have spoken to the Registrar. Mr. Rhodes said that
9 such an order was issued upon the request of the
10 Prosecution. I have spoken to my learned friend,
11 Ms. Hollis, who told me that such a request had not
12 come from the Prosecution.
13 I've spoken to the Registry again and I was
14 advised to very briefly see with the Prosecution
15 whether they object and whether they oppose my client
16 being transported together with the other accused so
17 that this problem can be resolved and the accused may
18 be allowed to leave. In that way, the Registrar would
19 be informed that the Prosecution has nothing against
20 such a decision.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
22 have you any comment to make?
23 MS. HOLLIS: First of all, Your Honour, the
24 Prosecution is very surprised to learn that it's upon
25 our request that such a thing would happen.
1 But as regards this particular request that
2 Defence counsel for Mr. Prcac has made, of course we
3 have no objection to anything that is required by the
4 health of this accused, and we would have no objection
5 to a return to the detention facility very quickly
6 after the close of proceedings each day if that is what
7 is required for the accused's health.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
9 very much, Ms. Hollis.
10 Madam Registrar, you will take note of this
11 so that the Registrar may decide, as it is not a matter
12 for the Chamber. But the Chamber does recommend that
13 this matter be taken into consideration.
14 We're going to continue now with the
15 cross-examination of this witness, and it is now
16 Mr. Fila's turn to ask questions.
17 Mr. Fila, please take care to make breaks
18 between questions and answers; otherwise, the
19 interpreters will find it hard to follow.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will
21 pay attention.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:
23 Q. Good morning, Witness. I am Toma Fila,
24 representing Radic. I hope you're feeling better. I
25 was rather worried yesterday about your health.
1 During your examination-in-chief, you said
2 that on the 10th of April you left your employment in
3 the public security station in Prijedor; is that
5 A. Yes, I stopped working.
6 Q. Fine. During the examination-in-chief, you
7 used the words "rules," "the book of rules," and so
8 on. What I'm interested in is whether you know the
9 exact title of those rules.
10 A. I've already said once what the name of that
11 book is.
12 Q. Is it "The Rules on the Work of Employees of
13 the Internal Affairs Service"?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So that is the right name. Was it a book
16 which you studied during your training? And those
17 rules were still in force when you stopped working, is
18 the expression that you prefer.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. After leaving the public security station, do
21 you have any idea how the work was done?
22 A. What do you mean?
23 Q. I mean after the takeover of power, the new
24 organisation, Simo Drljaca, and all the rest, do you
25 know which legal regulations governed their work?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. You mentioned the name of Zeljko Meakic.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Later you said that you left the Omarska camp
5 in August, when the camp was disbanded.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was Zeljko Meakic present at the time, when
8 that happened? I'm talking about the call-out.
9 A. I think he was.
10 Q. What was his position in the camp throughout
11 that time, if you know?
12 A. According to correct information that reached
13 me, his function ceased some two weeks prior to the
14 disbanding of the camp, the post of camp commander.
15 Q. During those two weeks, those last two weeks,
16 did the situation in the camp improve at all? Let me
17 help you. There were some journalists and so on, to
18 remind you of that period.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you remember that some people came to pay
21 a visit?
22 A. There was a visit, yes, but nothing
23 improved. Just when they came, there was some cosmetic
25 Q. You mentioned some sort of a trial -- drink
1 your water in peace.
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. -- and a lawyer Triso. Was he a lawyer?
4 A. Yes, a lawyer.
5 Q. From Prijedor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also mentioned a typist.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know her name, perhaps?
10 A. Slavica.
11 Q. Slavica. Was she perhaps from the public
12 security station in Prijedor?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So they were those who came there?
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. You said that you knew Mladjo Radic from
17 before and that his shift was the third shift, judging
18 by a number worn on the backside of a T-shirt of one of
19 the guards.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How did you recognise the other shifts? Were
22 they all wearing these numbers on their backs?
23 A. No, they were not.
24 Q. But this one was called the third?
25 A. Yes, by this number 3.
1 Q. Who do you know from that shift?
2 A. From shift number 3?
3 Q. Yes, in addition to Mladjo Radic.
4 A. Mladjo Radic. I know him.
5 Q. Do you know anyone else?
6 A. No, I didn't know those people from before.
7 Q. And now? I mean, now have you remembered any
8 one of them?
9 A. No. I didn't know them personally. They
10 were people from the area.
11 Q. Can I say that neither then or now did you
12 know the names of the persons in the third shift except
13 for Mladjo Radic?
14 A. I knew Mladjo Radic in person.
15 Q. So apart from him, you didn't know anyone
17 A. No.
18 Q. When Dusko Tadic was beating you, that you
19 told us about yesterday, was any guard present whose
20 name you know?
21 A. Among those who were working there, no.
22 Q. You mentioned the role of Krkan in connection
23 with some call-outs. I'm trying to remind you. And
24 you said that you saw him. Were these call-outs of
25 people who were going for interrogation to the
1 administration building or some other kinds of
3 A. That depended on the situation. For
4 instance, when that call-out was made, I couldn't see
5 where the man went.
6 Q. You said they would come back beaten up.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But where did they go to come back beaten up?
9 A. It depended whether they would take the man
10 out just to be beaten up or for interrogation, to be
11 beaten up up there.
12 Q. Is that what you meant, that they were being
13 taken for interrogation and beaten up there, when you
14 said that you saw Mladjo Radic in the vicinity?
15 A. I don't know what you're referring to.
16 Q. In the examination-in-chief, in answer to a
17 question by Ms. Hollis, you said that once you saw
18 Mladjo Radic being present when people were being
19 called out for interrogation, and who were brought back
20 beaten up. Is that what you meant?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was that the interrogation that was conducted
23 in the administration building in a similar way as you
24 were interrogated?
25 A. People were beaten up every day.
1 Q. Are you referring to those interrogations?
2 A. It depends on the situation you're referring
4 Q. You said you saw Krkan being present when
5 people were being taken out for interrogation.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were they taken to the administration
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So where exactly did you see him? Was he
11 standing or walking around?
12 A. There, in front of the building, in front of
13 the administration building. When the big beating
14 occurred, he was --
15 Q. Just tell us.
16 A. What is marked with A21, the window up
17 there. He was inside and I was standing where I could
18 see him.
19 Q. Did you perhaps see whether he was carrying
20 any weapons?
21 A. You see, I didn't need to check whether he
22 was armed or not. I didn't care. I didn't pay any
23 attention to that.
24 Q. You said that a person from the security gave
25 you certain information. That person, was he -- I'm
1 sorry. Let me rephrase it. Was that the same person
2 who informed you that Mladjo Radic was the shift
3 leader? I'm not asking his name.
4 A. I was told by that person, in addition to
5 what I was able to see and hear.
6 Q. Was that one and the same person?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. I'm not asking you his name.
9 Did you know who wore that sports jersey with
10 the number 3 on it?
11 A. I didn't care. At the beginning of my
12 treatment I was given instructions that it would be
13 best not to polemicise and not to talk about what
15 Q. Apart from you seeing Mladjo Radic up there,
16 A21, as you said, in the administration building, is
17 that what you were talking about in answer to Ms.
18 Brenda Hollis' question?
19 A. No.
20 Q. But that is where you said you saw him.
21 A. I said in those various situations, at
22 various times.
23 Q. In those various situations and times, I'm
24 asking you for the place where you saw him.
25 A. It depended on the event you are referring
2 Q. I'm asking you in what places you saw him.
3 A. I've already told you: In various places,
4 depending on what was happening.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have
6 no further questions.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
8 very much, Mr. Fila.
9 Mr. Tosic, if you please.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Tosic:
11 Q. Good day to you, Mr. Mrkalj. I'm going to
12 ask you a couple of questions.
13 In Omarska, the incident of your beating by
14 Dusko Tadic, you said that this occurred on the 16th of
15 June, 1992, and you said that in that incident three
16 other persons took part. Could you please tell us
17 whether you know the names of those persons.
18 A. No.
19 Q. In your testimony you also stated that you
20 learnt subsequently the name of one of those three
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you please tell us the name of that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Will you tell us the first and last name of
2 that person.
3 A. Zoran Vokic.
4 Q. Will you tell us: When that incident
5 occurred, did you know the name of Zoran Vokic then, at
6 the time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How much later during your stay in Omarska
9 did you learn that it was Zoran Vokic?
10 A. It was an assumption that it could have been
11 that person.
12 Q. From whom did you learn the name of that
14 A. From one of the detainees who thought that it
15 might be that person.
16 Q. What were the comments exchanged between you
17 and that detainee regarding the personality of Zoran
18 Vokic? How did you come to that conclusion when
19 talking to this detainee, the conclusion that it was
20 Zoran Vokic?
21 A. Apparently he had seen him.
22 Q. While you were working in the Prijedor Police
23 Station, did you know a person working in the police
24 with a surname Vokic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you tell us the first name of that
3 A. Radovan Vokic.
4 Q. When you learnt of the name of Zoran Vokic,
5 do you remember whether before Omarska you had any
6 contact with that individual in your official dealings?
7 A. Something linked to traffic, but I wasn't
8 sure. You can't remember all the people you deal with.
9 Q. Could you describe that person for us?
10 A. The moments when I saw that person were such
11 that I had very little chance to see him well, so I
12 couldn't really describe him, in view of the condition
13 I was in.
14 Q. Could you remember whether that person had
15 something -- was wearing something unusual, something
16 special, out of the ordinary, regarding the clothing he
17 wore or his features or his appearance?
18 A. It's rather hard for me to go back to those
19 events, because for years I have been trying to forget
20 them and to simply wipe them away from my memory. And
21 I have answered these same questions so many times. I
22 see no need for me to make the effort to look back.
23 Q. Well, then, will you please tell us: In your
24 statement that you gave to the investigators, you
25 mentioned that Zoran Vokic was wearing a gold earring
1 in his right ear, in the form of a cross. Is that
3 A. If that is what it says in my statement, then
4 it is so.
5 Q. Can you perhaps remember, when this beating
6 occurred, what did that person use to beat you with?
7 A. Do I have to go back to that again? I've
8 gone into all that once. Do I really have to? I do
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,
11 you have to answer questions put to you. If you can
12 remember, you say so. You tell us what you remember.
13 If you can't remember, you simply say, "I can't
14 remember." That is an answer to the question.
15 A. I can't remember. You're quite right. To
16 avoid this further torture, I can't remember those
17 things, and I don't want to go into them. It was the
18 worst situation for me.
19 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Just one more question, if you can't
21 remember. Is it true, what you told the investigators,
22 that that person beat you with an iron rail and a
23 rubber truncheon with a spring and a ball at the end of
25 A. The blows were terrible. I'm talking in
1 general terms. They beat me with a rubber truncheon
2 and with that spring which had a ball at the end of
4 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
5 Honours. We have no further questions. I apologise,
6 Your Honour. We have no further questions but we would
7 like to tender the statement -- or perhaps we can do
8 that at the end. I'm sorry. We have no further
9 questions for this witness. Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
11 very much, Mr. Tosic.
12 Mr. Jovan Simic, if you please.
13 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
14 in view of the fact that no positive identification of
15 my client was made, we will have no questions. But if
16 this identification, any attempt is made to accept --
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
18 you can ask questions or not ask questions. You cannot
19 make that conclusion as to whether there was a positive
20 identification or not.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.
23 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
24 there was no positive identification, as has been
25 entered in the record by the Prosecution, so we have no
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We now move
3 on to any additional questions.
4 Ms. Hollis.
5 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Re-examined by Ms. Hollis:
7 Q. Sir, on cross-examination you were asked some
8 questions about who was responsible for prisoners and
9 prisons. I would ask you, sir, did the Prijedor Police
10 Department have cells in which it held people who had
11 been arrested?
12 A. Yes, it had one cell.
13 Q. Were the police officers belonging to the
14 police department those who were responsible for those
15 prisoners in that cell?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were also asked questions about a duty
18 officer or an operative duty officer, and you testified
19 you did not know what was meant by that.
20 A. Yes, that's what I said.
21 Q. Are you familiar with a position called
22 "shift leader"?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What was that position?
25 A. That position was an authorised official who
1 was at the head of the operative affairs of the
3 Q. What were the duties of that individual?
4 A. That person would send workers to work; that
5 person was constantly in radio communication with the
6 workers, officers.
7 Q. How many shift leaders would be on duty at
8 any one particular time?
9 A. We worked within a system of two first
10 shifts, two second shifts, and two third shifts, and
11 then two days off, and so according to that system,
12 four persons.
13 Q. So a shift leader in charge of each shift.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, you were also asked questions about an
16 incident at Hambarine, and it was indicated that people
17 there were killed as a result of that incident. Did
18 you speak with anyone who was wounded as a result of
19 that incident?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who was that?
22 A. Ferid Sikiric.
23 Q. Now, in your testimony on direct examination,
24 you talked about a person named Ferid Sikiric. Is this
25 the same person?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you talked to this Ferid Sikiric, did he
3 tell you how he was injured?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did he tell you?
6 A. He was at the time at a checkpoint.
7 Q. At which checkpoint?
8 A. The Hambarine checkpoint. A vehicle came
9 from the direction of Prijedor, moving in the direction
10 of Ljubija. According to well-founded suspicions and
11 some information received that the vehicle was
12 transporting weapons in fact, the vehicle was stopped
13 for a search and control to be conducted.
14 The driver of the vehicle stopped his
15 vehicle. Another person who was at the checkpoint
16 approached to see what was going on. Everybody was
17 asked to leave the vehicle. At that moment the person
18 who was sitting behind the driver, through the door,
19 that is to say, from inside the car, he opened fire
20 through the door of the vehicle. Ferid Sikiric was
21 hit. The second individual, that is to say, the third
22 individual, the person who could see the car, responded
23 to the fire and shot in turn, returned fire. That's
24 how it came about.
25 Q. Now, at one point in cross-examination you
1 were being asked about your interrogations, and you
2 were asked if any people who had worked in the Prijedor
3 Police Station ever took part in interrogating you.
4 You answered that Nenad Lakic took part in that, and it
5 appeared that you had other names you wished to give
6 but you were interrupted.
7 Do you recall anyone else from the Prijedor
8 Police Station who was present when you were
10 A. Yes. Nebojsa Tomicic and another Nebojsa; we
11 had two Nebojsas. I was interrogated in their presence
12 and we had to sign some documents.
13 Q. Other than those individuals, do you recall
14 the names of any personnel from the Prijedor Police
15 Station who were present when you were interrogated?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who, please?
18 A. I remember, during my first interrogation,
19 the chief of the crime department, Ranko Ivic [as
20 interpreted], and there was something that was brought
21 into question and I asked him to confirm my story.
22 Q. I'm sorry. Would you give that name again?
23 Who was the chief of the crime department?
24 A. Ranko Mijic.
25 Q. Thank you. You were also asked some
1 questions about a document, document 17/1, and you were
2 referred to paragraph 7, the sentence which indicated
3 that the mine's management would organise meals for
4 detainees in conjunction with the quartermaster corps.
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
7 Mr. Krstan Simic.
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
9 in the document it says the mine's management of
10 Ljubija, not the management of the camp, which was the
11 interpretation we got. I don't know what Ms. Hollis
12 said but it says, the mine's management of Ljubija, the
13 Ljubija mine's management and not the camp management.
14 Thank you.
15 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, that's not what I
16 intended to say. I'm not sure I said that. But
17 anyway, I certainly did not mean to say Ljubija and I
18 don't believe I did, so perhaps the interpretation
19 could be clarified. Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may
22 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Sir, may I ask you, when did you first
24 receive food in the camp?
25 A. Well, about four or five days later.
1 Q. While you were held in the camp, did you --
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
4 Mr. Simic.
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
6 this question was not raised in the cross-examination
7 by any of the Defence counsel.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
9 Ms. Hollis.
10 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the question was
11 asked about the paragraph assigning responsibility for
12 organising food in the camp; my questions are relevant
13 to that. The Prosecution would suggest the inference
14 which the Defence will wish to be drawn from that is
15 that the mine's management was responsible for any
16 difficulties with food. We are exploring that
17 situation with these questions. We believe that it is
18 relevant to the cross-examination and we would ask to
19 be allowed to ask the question.
20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, Your Honour, I
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I was going
23 to give the floor to Mr. Simic to know whether he
24 agrees with the response made by Ms. Hollis, whether
25 you accept -- let me correct myself, whether you accept
1 what Ms. Hollis has said.
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
3 we do not accept what Ms. Hollis has said because the
4 object of our cross-examination was who was
5 responsible; that is to say, we wanted to show the
6 system of organisation and the functioning of the camp
7 and not the method of providing food. We discussed
8 that at length with other witnesses. This particular
9 witness did not speak about that during his testimony,
10 during his examination-in-chief and afterwards.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Trial
12 Chamber considers that you have opened the question of
13 meals, which was included in the document, and
14 therefore Ms. Hollis can ask her question.
15 Before you continue, Ms. Hollis, I would like
16 to hear Mr. O'Sullivan. He had an objection to make, I
18 Mr. O'Sullivan was on his feet.
19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. My
20 objection is that the test for whether or not
21 re-examination is possible it is not, as Ms. Hollis
22 suggests, whether her questions are relevant.
23 Relevancy is not the issue.
24 In my submission, re-examination is limited
25 to questions raised during cross-examination which are
1 unclear, which require clarification. There's no
2 ambiguity in the questions put to this witness during
3 the cross-examination, nor in his answers. This is an
4 attempt to engage in examination-in-chief, which is not
5 permitted during re-examination.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank
7 you very much, Mr. O'Sullivan, but the question of
8 meals, of food, was an essential question to this case,
9 and therefore -- just one moment, please, for me to
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
13 you may continue with the question. The Chamber feels
14 that it comes within the scope of the regulations. So
15 please continue.
16 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, during your detention in Omarska, did
18 you receive food every day?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did any camp personnel ever intervene to
21 ensure that you received food?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, you were also questioned about paragraph
24 7 of this same document as it related to the mines'
25 management organising regular cleaning and
1 maintenance. Were there regular cleaning and
2 maintenance of the areas where you were detained in
3 Omarska camp?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did any camp personnel ever intervene to
6 ensure that the areas where you were held were
7 regularly cleaned and maintained?
8 A. No.
9 Q. During cross-examination by Defence counsel
10 for accused Radic, you were asked about locations where
11 Radic was during times that people were called out. I
12 would ask you to assist the Court, please, and tell the
13 Court in what different locations did you see the
14 accused Radic when people were called out? You have
15 mentioned one such location. I would ask you to assist
16 the Court and tell them the other locations.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Objection. Your
18 Honours --
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I
20 apologise. I was listening to the interpretation, thus
21 the lag. Mr. Fila.
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you
23 said that we should not repeat questions that have
24 already been asked. I posed exactly the same question
25 in the same word order, but I didn't insist upon it
1 because of your advice. You advised otherwise. Now,
2 does the witness only answer the Prosecution and not
3 us? So I object to that.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
5 your response to the objection.
6 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the general rule is
7 that you don't repeat questions that were asked and
8 answered. This question is being repeated because it
9 was not answered. Your Honours are free to determine
10 the significance of the fact that it was not answered
11 for Defence counsel for Mr. Radic, and whether it is
12 answered when I ask it, and why that may be. But it
13 was not answered, and that's why I'm asking it.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,
16 please go ahead. I do apologise. You know, there is
17 always a slight delay because I'm listening to the
19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The answer was
20 given that Mladjo Radic was at different places,
21 depending on the situation. I asked twice, I got the
22 same answer twice. And I don't understand what
23 Ms. Hollis wants, apart from getting something else.
24 That is what the witness answered twice, so why go into
25 it a third time? And I still maintain that questions
1 should not be repeated in order to get a different
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
4 please don't repeat the question, but you can, of
5 course, specify and go on, go into specifics, and
6 reformulate your question.
7 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll
8 attempt to do so.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,
10 Ms. Hollis.
11 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I will
12 attempt to do so.
13 Q. On cross-examination by Defence counsel for
14 accused Radic, you indicated that in addition to the
15 rounded area on the administration building, that you
16 saw accused Radic present in different locations when
17 people were called out. Could you please assist the
18 Court and specify where those different locations
20 A. Yes, I can. In addition to what I've already
21 stated, the locations were here in this building, on
22 this model, which means in the building, the space
23 referred to as maintenance, where cars were
24 maintenanced, repaired. That's where we were detained.
25 Q. When you're talking about "this building,"
1 could you tell us how that building was referred to by
2 the detainees? What was the building called?
3 A. The maintenance building, something like
5 Q. Now, earlier in your direct testimony you
6 mentioned the repair building and you said that was the
7 hangar building.
8 A. Yes, that's the hangar.
9 Q. Is the maintenance building the same as the
10 repair building?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were also asked questions on
13 cross-examination based upon a statement that you had
14 given, and you were asked questions in regard to a
15 person called Vokic and how you had described Vokic.
16 At this time I would like to show you what I will mark
17 as Exhibit 3/98A, being the English, and B being the
19 MS. HOLLIS: And I would ask that this
20 statement be provided to the witness. And I also have
21 copies for Your Honours. And if any Defence counsel do
22 not have a copy of this statement, it is dated 27, 28,
23 29 April 1995. If anyone needs it, I have that for
25 Would you give them both copies, please.
1 Q. Sir, I would ask that you first look at
2 3/98A, and I would ask you, if you look at the first
3 page of that statement, does your signature appear on
4 the first page of that statement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if you look at pages 2, 3, 4, and 5, and
7 6, does your signature appear on each page of that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And, sir, do you recall giving this statement
11 to members of the Prosecution in April of 1995?
12 A. Yes, I remember.
13 Q. And at that time did you answer questions to
14 the best of your recollection?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And did you answer questions truthfully?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was this statement read back to you in a
19 language you understood before you signed the
21 A. No.
22 Q. The statement was not read to you in a
23 language you understand?
24 A. No.
25 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we will pull the
1 statement back, then.
2 Q. Then, sir, tell us: How is it you were able
3 to say that the statement was accurate?
4 A. Well, what I -- I can't say. I cannot say.
5 Q. All right. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I beg your
7 pardon. Perhaps the witness is confusing this with
8 another statement that we discussed here. Ms. Hollis,
9 could you be more specific? But I see Mr. Fila on his
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis said
12 that she withdraws the statement. If she said that,
13 then I don't think we can continue discussing that
14 statement, if she has withdrawn it. That is my
15 opinion. So why should we go on asking about something
16 that has been withdrawn? Thank you.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,
18 when Ms. Hollis asked you the question and wanted to
19 know whether before signing this paper that you have in
20 front of you, the paper before you, did somebody read
21 to you in your language that statement before you
22 signed it?
23 A. I just signed the English version.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But before
25 signing the English version -- there we are. You have
1 in front of you -- have you got a B/C/S version in
2 front of you, the document, Witness?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On the
5 ELMO -- no, we've got nothing on the ELMO. Never
6 mind. So what you are telling us is that you signed
7 the English version; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You don't
10 understand English, I take it?
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before
13 signing, did somebody translate for you what was
14 written in English?
15 A. Yes. Okay. Yes, but not in written form,
16 not in writing. That's where the misunderstanding
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, tell
19 me one more time so that we understand things clearly:
20 Before signing the English version, did somebody
21 translate orally for you and then you signed? Is that
22 how it happened, or not?
23 A. Yes, that's how it happened.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
25 you may continue.
1 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your
2 Honour, with that clarification, the --
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just one
4 moment. I see Mr. O'Sullivan has an objection to
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Just a matter of
7 clarification. We now have testimony that he did not
8 have it read back to him in a language he understood,
9 and now he says he did. So you put the same question
10 to the witness as Ms. Hollis. He's answered
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No basis to continue --
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
15 Mr. O'Sullivan, if I heard the witness correctly, he
16 said that he did not sign the B/C/S version; he signed
17 the English version. Before signing, nobody gave him a
18 translation, but did the oral translation for him, and,
19 having had that oral translation, he signed. Is that
20 clear, or are there still any obscure points? And the
21 transcript speaks for itself, of course.
22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's precisely my point,
23 Your Honour. On page 69 of LiveNote, line 15, the
24 question from Ms. Hollis is this: "Was this statement
25 read back to you in a language you understand before
1 you signed the statement?" Answer: "No." Next
2 question: "The statement was not read to you in a
3 language you understand?" Answer: "No."
4 That's the basis for my arguing that this
5 statement should be withdrawn.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
7 Mr. O'Sullivan, to withdraw the statement, why?
8 I began my intervention admitting the
9 possibility that the witness was not clear on what
10 declaration was meant, and I admitted that, in fact, he
11 did have an English version on the ELMO and a B/C/S
12 version in front of him. Having clarified that, the
13 witness was clear in saying that before signing the
14 English version, he received an oral translation in
15 B/C/S, so he could know what he was about to sign, and
16 therefore ...
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I can't take
18 the point much further other than to say he had the
19 document in front of him when Ms. Hollis originally put
20 her questions to him. So in my submission, there was
21 no confusion in the mind of the witness.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When I said
23 to Madam Hollis that she could continue, it was to
24 continue her response. I think it is now quite clear
25 from the transcript, so you may continue, Ms. Hollis,
1 your re-examination.
2 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 I would simply have one more question related
4 to this statement, related to the issue of the
5 objection. I would ask that the witness look at the
6 last page of the B/C/S, which should be page 7 of the
8 Q. Witness, the last page of the B/C/S, please,
9 page 7. Page 7, please, if you would turn it to the
10 last page of the B/C/S. The last page of the B/C/S,
11 "Witness Acknowledgement." Do you see that, sir?
12 Does it state: "This statement has been read over to
13 me in the Bosnian language and is true to the best of
14 my knowledge and recollection"? Does it say that?
15 A. Yes, that is what it says.
16 Q. At the bottom of that acknowledgement, does
17 your signature appear?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Where it says "Signed," is that your
20 signature? If you would look again at the English,
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Does your signature appear on the English
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Sir, just to make it absolutely clear, are
2 you now telling the Court that the statement was read
3 to you in the Bosnian language and you certified that
4 it was true to the best of your knowledge and
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, sir, if you look at this statement in
8 the Bosnian language --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- does this statement refer to the beating
11 by Tadic and the presence of a man you identify as
13 A. As far as I can remember, that came
14 subsequently, but I would have to ...
15 Q. Would you look at the statement and see if
16 the statement includes information about a man you
17 identify as Vokic?
18 A. Yes, it says that.
19 Q. If you look at page 6 of the Bosnian language
20 version --
21 A. Yes, I have it.
22 Q. -- does that indicate that you did not know
23 Vokic from before?
24 A. Yes, that is what I said today, earlier.
25 Q. That another person --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- indicated Vokic.
3 A. Yes, that is what I said.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have no further
6 questions of the witness.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
8 very much, Ms. Hollis.
9 Judge Wald, please.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Mrkalj, I have only a couple
12 of questions.
13 Apart from the information you got from the
14 security guard whose name you do not wish to reveal
15 publicly -- leave that aside -- what, if any, other
16 indications did you have while you were in the camp
17 that Mr. Kvocka had a role as a superior?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE WALD: What, if any, other
20 indications? Leave the information out that you got
21 from your security guard. Would you just tell us how,
22 if you did, you came to the conclusion that he was some
23 sort of, you used the word, "boss," in your prior
25 A. One of the indications was that the detainees
1 were talking -- I wasn't present -- that he had
2 addressed a group of detainees and introduced himself
3 as the camp commander. Then another version, mine: I
4 could note by the behaviour and situation in the camp,
5 when the shifts were changing, when the bus would
6 arrive with the new shift and while it was standing
7 parked, the shift leaders would be there.
8 JUDGE WALD: My second question is: You also
9 said that you saw Mr. Kvocka, I believe, early on in
10 the presence of Mr. Meakic at one point, is that right,
11 in the camp? Is that what you testified to?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE WALD: Later on you said that
14 Mr. Meakic was the commander up till two weeks before
15 the camp disbanded in August. How were you able to
16 tell when, in your impression, Mr. Kvocka was the
17 commander and when Mr. Meakic was the commander, or
18 could you tell? If you couldn't tell, that's fine
20 A. The difference could be noticed, and I
21 received confirmation from this person and the reason
22 why the change had occurred.
23 JUDGE WALD: Is this person the one that you
24 don't wish to disclose his identity?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE WALD: Well, then, leave that aside for
2 the moment; don't take account of that. Is there
3 anything you observed or heard from other people, other
4 than him, that allowed you to conclude that at one
5 point Mr. Kvocka was the commander, at another point,
6 Mr. Meakic was?
7 A. When the takeover of shifts occurred, Meakic
8 started to be present in the capacity in which Kvocka
9 used to appear. So those differences were quite
11 JUDGE WALD: Can you remember about what time
12 that happened, the shift changes to Meakic from
13 Kvocka? Just approximately what time?
14 A. I cannot remember the exact date, nor did I
15 know the date, but it would be in June.
16 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
17 A. In June.
18 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. As far as the
19 document that you were asked to read parts of by
20 Mr. Simic, let me ask you a couple of questions.
21 Insofar as the people who did the
22 interrogation in the administration building, did you
23 ever observe them around other parts of the camp doing
24 anything with the detainees, or were they, in your
25 observations, confined to just doing interrogations?
1 A. As far as I know, to the best of my knowledge
2 and according to what I saw, they were in the
3 administration premises, that is, the premises for the
5 JUDGE WALD: In your observation or
6 knowledge, did you ever see, if you would have known
7 them, members of the mine management, the Omarska mine
8 management -- you were asked to read the portions of
9 the document dealing with their responsibility for
10 meals and cleaning -- did you ever see anybody that you
11 knew to be a representative of the mine management
12 company around the camp?
13 A. No.
14 JUDGE WALD: Would you have known Simo
15 Drljaca if you saw him? I mean, was he somebody you
16 would recognise if you saw him? The person who signed
17 the document that you were asked about, did you know
18 who he was? Would you have recognised him? Did you
19 ever see him or hear that he was at the camp?
20 A. I would recognise him.
21 JUDGE WALD: Did you ever see him or hear
22 that he was at the camp?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE WALD: You saw him at the camp?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 JUDGE WALD: Once or several times?
2 A. Just once. That was the most important
3 event, actually.
4 JUDGE WALD: What was that event?
5 A. I beg your pardon?
6 JUDGE WALD: What was that event that you say
7 was the most important event that he was present at?
8 A. Yes. I'm referring to the following event:
9 We were lined up in lines of 30 and we had to sing, and
10 he was present. Then we were ordered to go into the
11 so-called canteen, the kitchen. This was an important
12 event, very important, because that was when there was
13 a massive beating of the detainees going in and coming
14 out of the canteen.
15 JUDGE WALD: All right. You told us about
17 My last question is: Who gave the orders to
18 detainees in the regular, everyday? I mean, when the
19 detainees were told to go to lunch or to go to this
20 building or to go to that building, or to stand up or
21 to sit down, who were the people -- not the names of
22 individuals -- but what kind of people were they that
23 gave all the orders to the detainees during everyday
25 A. Mostly the guards.
1 JUDGE WALD: That's what I wanted to know.
2 Thank you very much. I'm sorry we have to bother you
3 with so many little questions, but I'm sure you
4 understand that this is the only way the process can
5 work. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
7 very much, Judge Wald.
8 I also have a little question because most of
9 the questions have been posed, and that is the
10 advantage of being the last to speak.
11 You mentioned, and you used -- regarding a
12 visit and improvements in the camp, you mentioned that
13 that visit was masked. Could you explain what you
14 meant by the word "masked"? What was masked in that
16 A. I can explain, yes. I can tell you what
17 happened. That was the first time that I saw a quarter
18 of a loaf of bread; that was the first time I got a
19 full plate of food. You see, I was hungry. It was the
20 first time that I saw something like that. This was
21 done for somebody to see that things were fine for us.
22 That was the cosmetic improvements that I was referring
24 But that was not the real state of affairs
25 that I have had to read out to you today, without
1 having the ability to comment on what I read. I will
2 tell you the truth. The paper that I read, the piece
3 of paper, it is equal to pieces of paper from the
4 Second World War that were written in camps such as
5 Auschwitz. They can be compared to those.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,
7 has that paper got anything to do with the cosmetic
8 improvements that I was asking you about?
9 A. Yes. What I was reading today simply has
10 nothing to do with reality, not a single paragraph; it
11 is just dead letter on paper. And they are trying with
12 these cosmetics to persuade this Court that we were
13 fine, and we were not fine, ever.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are here
15 to establish that, Witness. Witness, thank you very
16 much for coming. You suffered certain health problems,
17 but in any event we wish to thank you and wish you a
18 safe journey home. The usher is now going to escort
19 you out. Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
23 I saw that you were about to get on your feet, and I
24 see you on your feet now.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
1 perhaps this is the moment. Though I had intended to
2 raise another question regarding re-examination of
3 witnesses, we have found a court ruling that supports
4 our position. But the witness has left and we'll leave
5 that for the Status Conference.
6 But I would like to tender into evidence the
7 statements by Edin Mrkalj, on the 27th, 28th, and 29th
8 of April, in 1995, both of which were given after the
9 confirmation of the indictment against Mr. Kvocka and
10 the other accused. So I would like to tender them into
11 evidence. Ms. Hollis was about to do so but she
12 withdrew her proposal, so it is now our proposal that
13 these documents be admitted into evidence.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
15 Ms. Hollis.
16 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Your Honour, perhaps we could take it in the
18 regular order for offering evidence and then we could
19 deal with these issues, if we're now moving into that.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but I
21 gave the floor to Mr. Simic because he was on his
22 feet. Let us follow the order for the offering of
24 Ms. Hollis, therefore. I think that you have
25 some documents to tender, so please do so.
1 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. We had 3/22,
2 which was a photograph of a man in a blue camouflage
3 uniform, and we would offer that into evidence.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are there
5 any objections on the part of the Defence?
6 Ms. Hollis, excuse me for a moment, but I
7 think that we also have the statements of this
8 witness. Are you leaving that opportunity to the
10 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, you've already been
11 told on the record that the Defence wishes to introduce
12 it. If it's easier, for purposes of marking, for me to
13 introduce it, since I've already marked it, I'll be
14 happy to do so, if that would be easier for keeping the
15 exhibits in order.
16 And I would offer, then, 3/98A, which is the
17 English version of the Office of the Prosecutor's
18 statement taken of Edin Mrkalj on 27, 28, 29 April
19 1995, and 3/98B is the B/C/S version of that statement.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So,
21 Mr. Simic, are there any objections to the admission of
22 these documents into evidence?
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] In view of the
24 fact that Ms. Hollis has proposed the admission -- we
25 were out of order, so we apologise, out of turn. But I
1 speak only on behalf of -- in my own name. We do not
2 object to the admission of the photograph or the
3 statement tendered by the Prosecution. Thank you.
4 JUDGE WALD: I just wanted to clarify one
5 thing, since we had a long discussion previously about
6 the admission -- this is primarily directed to the
7 Defence. I think I know your position quite well,
8 Ms. Hollis. -- as to whether or not entire witness
9 statements should go in or just portions that are
10 relevant to cross-examination or completion of the
11 impeachment process. I understand now that you're
12 agreeing in this case to the whole statement. Well,
13 Mr. Simic is agreeing to the whole statement. Okay.
14 Is that correct? I just wanted to clarify that.
15 You're happy with having the whole statement
16 introduced? You just said so.
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. In this
18 case, I agree.
19 JUDGE WALD: All right. Okay.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see
21 Mr. O'Sullivan now. Go on, please.
22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: On behalf of the accused
23 Kos, we do not object to the admission of 3/22, the
24 photo. We object to the admission of 3/98A, 98B, for
25 the reasons stated earlier. And we renew our
1 objection -- I will not repeat my submissions, but we
2 renew the objection as to the admissibility of
3 statements in their entirety. Our position is that
4 out-of-court statements used during cross-examination
5 are limited for impeachment purposes only. So 3/98
6 falls into a separate category. We object, in
7 addition, for the reasons stated when this witness was
8 shown the statement.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] First of all,
11 Mr. President, this statement does not refer and does
12 not affect the Defence of Mr. Radic, so I should
13 agree. But for the clarity of the proceedings, I join
14 what Mr. O'Sullivan has said, because that transcript
15 is our transcript. We participate in it. If
16 Ms. Hollis at one point in time withdrew something,
17 then she has done so for good, and that is why I
18 support Mr. O'Sullivan in respect to that point and
19 also in respect to statements in general. But this is
20 not from the standpoint of the defence of Mr. Radic or
21 Mr. Kvocka. And also, Mr. President, I will accept any
22 ruling you may make wholeheartedly -- I want to make
23 that clear -- whatever ruling you make in such
24 situations, but it is a question of legal purity, if I
25 may put it in that way.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
2 Mr. Tosic.
3 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we
4 do not object to the introduction of this document into
5 evidence by the Prosecution, but in view of the
6 different opinions among Defence teams, and bearing in
7 mind the fact that Ms. Hollis had withdrawn her
8 proposal and that you will make your own ruling about
9 that, the Defence of Zoran Zigic would suggest that the
10 statement be admitted into evidence. Thank you.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
12 very much, Mr. Tosic.
13 Mr. Jovan Simic.
14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
15 the Defence of Mr. Prcac joins in the position of
16 Mr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Fila, and we object to the
17 admission of this statement.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,
19 your response to the objections.
20 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Three
21 points, Your Honour.
22 First of all, Your Honour, after the
23 Prosecution indicated it would withdraw the statement,
24 further questions were asked which, it is the
25 Prosecution's submission, indicated that the witness
1 misunderstood what was being asked of him in that he
2 indicated he was being asked if he had been provided a
3 written statement in B/C/S. The witness then went on
4 to clarify that indeed the statement had been read to
5 him in a language he understood and that he had
6 certified that the statement was true and accurate as
7 it was read to him. We believe that in that
8 circumstance the statement can go in.
9 The second point is this: The Prosecution
10 offered, as a matter of keeping the procedural record
11 clean, if you will, to offer this as the number we had
12 marked it, 3/98A and B. Prior to that, Defence counsel
13 for Kvocka had indeed offered the same statement to
14 Your Honours. So that is an independent basis for
15 allowing the statement in.
16 Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, it was
17 Defence counsel for Zigic who introduced the issue of
18 the statement regarding a person by the name of Vokic.
19 And if Your Honours review the statement, you will find
20 that the substance of the statement deals with both
21 Tadic and Vokic and the incident about which Defence
22 counsel for Zigic were questioned. And Defence counsel
23 for Zigic, who were the ones who thought the statement
24 was important to their client, have indicated they have
25 no objection to this statement coming in. We believe
1 that the statement should come in, given all of those
2 remarks that I have just made. There are three bases
3 upon which the statement could come in. Thank you.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could we
6 have some peace for the Judges to consult, please. Can
7 we have a little peace, please. Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are not
10 in a position to take a decision. Once we are
11 complete, we will take up this discussion and consult
12 with our colleague, Judge Fouad Riad, and we will
13 decide then, as I don't see that the decision is
14 important for continuing of the proceedings now.
15 However, I would like to make a comment. I
16 don't know why the parties who are against the
17 admission into the record -- I'm not talking about this
18 particular case -- are frequently the people who use
19 those same statements. I think that we should be
20 coherent and perhaps discuss this matter in greater
21 depth. Either we follow the principle that what is
22 valid is what the witness says in the courtroom and we
23 forget everything else, or what he said before is
24 important and we have to be consistent and accept it.
25 To function with these double standards, I think, is
1 rather difficult, but I leave it to you as a matter for
2 you to think about. So that is not any instruction by
3 the Chamber; I just wish you to think about it. I
4 think we have to be consistent; that is all.
5 So, Ms. Hollis, what are we going to do now?
6 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution has
7 no further exhibits to offer.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have
9 some more?
10 MS. HOLLIS: No exhibits, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but
12 after that, do you have witnesses?
13 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. I don't know
14 if the Defence have any exhibits to offer. I believe
15 Mr. Simic had some exhibits that he referred to. No?
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. I was
17 thinking that Mr. Simic was referring to those same
18 statements, so I think there are no others that they
19 wish to tender. But I do see that Mr. Tosic has
20 something to say.
21 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to
22 deal with this dilemma, perhaps one could say that this
23 is --
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What
25 dilemma are we talking about?
1 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] I was referring
2 to the admission of this statement into evidence.
3 Because as far as I was able to understand what you
4 said, I don't know whether you are going to agree with
5 the proposition of the Prosecution.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What I said
7 was that we will decide later because Judge Fouad Riad
8 is not present, so we'll make a decision later. Is
9 that clear now?
10 Ms. Hollis --
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
12 Honour. I'm sorry.
13 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we do have another
14 witness. Perhaps it's time to take a break.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
16 indeed. I was thinking of that, only people were
17 asking to speak. Yes, we'll have a half-hour break
19 --- Recess taken at 1.01 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be
23 Ms. Hollis, can we have the next witness
24 brought in.
25 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour,
1 the next witness will be Sifeta Susic.
2 I would also note for the record, Your
3 Honours, that Mr. Daniel Saxon is at counsel table
4 representing the Prosecutor, and Mr. Saxon will be
5 leading the evidence of this witness.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 May we say welcome to Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: [Interpretation] Thank you,
9 Mr. President.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you
12 hear me, Witness?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
15 afternoon. I'm speaking to you. You are now going to
16 read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to
17 hand to you, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
19 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
20 and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: SIFETA SUSIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be
24 seated, Ms. Susic.
25 Ms. Susic, thank you for coming here. Do you
1 feel comfortable?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
5 You are now going to answer questions put to you by
6 Mr. Saxon.
7 Mr. Saxon, your witness.
8 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examined by Mr. Saxon:
10 Q. Madam, what is your name?
11 A. Sifeta Susic.
12 Q. What is the date and the place of your birth?
13 A. The 1st of January, 1949; Prijedor.
14 Q. What was your place of residence until 1992?
15 A. Prijedor.
16 Q. What is your ethnicity?
17 A. I'm a Muslim.
18 Q. Up until April of 1992, where did you work?
19 A. I worked in the Secretariat for Internal
20 Affairs in Prijedor, and it is abbreviated with the
21 letters SUP, S-U-P.
22 Q. When did you commence working at the SUP?
23 A. On the 8th of February, 1971.
24 Q. Prior to April 1992, approximately how many
25 persons worked at the Prijedor SUP?
1 A. Approximately 200.
2 Q. In early 1992, who was the secretary of the
4 A. Hasan Talundzic.
5 Q. In that position as secretary, did that mean
6 that Hasan Talundzic was the highest ranking person in
7 the SUP?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was the SUP divided into different
11 A. Yes, it was.
12 Q. How many different departments?
13 A. There was the crime department, the
14 suppression and supervision of crime, where I worked;
15 then there was the Prijedor Police Station, which
16 included the Omarska Police Station, the Ljubija Police
17 Station, and the Kozarac department, the traffic
18 department; then there was the department for
19 administration matters and the communications
21 Q. So all together was the Prijedor SUP divided
22 into three departments?
23 A. Yes, you could put it that way.
24 Q. Did each of these three departments have a
25 chief or a commander?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. With respect to the police department, was
3 there a central police station for the city of
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did that Prijedor Police Station have a
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What was the commander's name?
10 A. Dusan Jankovic.
11 Q. What was his ethnicity?
12 A. He was a Serb.
13 Q. Were there any other police stations in the
14 smaller towns around the municipality of Prijedor?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where were those?
17 A. In Omarska, Ljubija, and the department in
19 Q. Did each of these police stations in the
20 smaller communities have a commander?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who did the commanders of the police stations
23 in Omarska, Ljubija, and Kozarac report to?
24 A. The commander of the Prijedor Police Station
25 and the chief of SUP.
1 Q. So, then, was Dusko Jankovic, as commander of
2 the Prijedor Police Station, the police commander for
3 the entire Prijedor municipality?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. With regard to the police station in Prijedor
6 and the police stations in the smaller towns like
7 Omarska, did those police stations have a particular
8 internal structure?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was there a commander?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How else was the structure divided?
13 A. The commander and deputy commander, and
14 perhaps they had assistants but I'm not quite sure of
16 Q. Were those police stations divided into
17 different sections?
18 A. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know.
19 Q. In the police station in Prijedor, whether in
20 the town of Prijedor itself or in the smaller
21 communities like Omarska or Kozarac, would there be a
22 traffic section?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would there be a law enforcement section?
25 A. Yes. I apologise. Perhaps I didn't
1 understand the question properly. Were you asking me
2 whether that structure existed in the SUP in the town
3 of Prijedor?
4 Q. I'm speaking simply with regard to the police
5 department itself which had an office, as you
6 explained, in Prijedor and in the smaller communities.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So within the police stations, how were they
9 organised in terms of their structure?
10 A. The police station of Prijedor, at the head
11 of the station was the commander, the deputy commander,
12 and the assistant commander. And the smaller stations,
13 such as the Ljubija Police Station and Omarska Police
14 Station, they had commanders or leaders and deputy
15 leaders; I don't know whether they had assistants or
16 whether they were termed differently. But in the
17 Kozarac department, there was only the commander or
18 leader of the Kozarac department, as far as I know.
19 Q. Have you ever heard the term "patrol sector
21 A. Yes, I have.
22 Q. What was a patrol sector leader?
23 A. I couldn't really explain that to you.
24 Q. Do you know if the salary of a patrol sector
25 leader differed from that of a regular policeman?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was the salary of a patrol sector leader
3 higher or lower than that of an ordinary policeman?
4 A. The salaries or personal incomes were higher
5 than the salaries of an ordinary police officer.
6 Q. Do you know if the responsibilities borne by
7 a patrol sector leader differed from those borne by a
8 regular policeman?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How did those responsibilities differ?
11 A. Well, probably he had greater competencies
12 and more complex -- his work was more complex, more
13 responsibilities than an ordinary policeman.
14 Q. When you say "he," Ms. Susic, are you
15 referring to the patrol sector leader?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Ms. Susic, in which department of the SUP did
18 you work?
19 A. I worked in the crime department.
20 Q. And who was your supervisor in the crime
22 A. Ranko Mijic.
23 Q. And what was Ranko Mijic's ethnicity?
24 A. He was a Serb.
25 Q. What were your specific duties at the crime
1 department in the SUP?
2 A. I was the clerk for penal files, dossiers,
4 Q. And specifically, then, what would you do?
5 What were your specific duties?
6 A. I kept records for all individuals who were
7 sentenced for a crime and were born in the Prijedor
9 Q. Okay. Ms. Susic, during the course of your
10 work for those 21 years, between 1971 and 1992, did you
11 have occasion to have personal contact with different
12 police officers from the city of Prijedor and from
13 nearby towns?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why would these different police officials or
16 officers come to see you?
17 A. They would come to check data and information
18 about certain individuals through the records we kept
19 in the crime section so that they knew who they were
20 dealing with, whether he had been convicted and
22 Q. Was that in the course of police
23 investigative work?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During your years of service in the Prijedor
1 SUP, what contact, if any, did you have with a police
2 officer named Miroslav Kvocka?
3 A. Yes, I did. He was an employee of the police
4 force, and any time he had to check anything on the
5 ground or he had a request from a work organisation or
6 institution or anything of that kind, he was duty-bound
7 to come and see me and check out the individual, to see
8 whether we had a file or a criminal record on that
10 Q. So how often would you have these kinds of
11 contacts with Mr. Kvocka?
12 A. Endless amounts of time, whenever his work
13 called for it.
14 Q. Did you ever receive requests for information
15 in writing from Miroslav Kvocka?
16 A. Yes. That was standard practice.
17 Q. Where specifically did Miroslav Kvocka work?
18 A. The Omarska police station.
19 Q. Do you know, Ms. Susic, what position
20 Miroslav Kvocka held at the Omarska police station?
21 A. As far as I know, he was the deputy leader of
22 the Omarska police station.
23 Q. Ms. Susic, I'd like to ask you to look around
24 this courtroom and tell the Judges if you can see
25 Miroslav Kvocka here today.
1 A. Looking at it from my direction, from left to
2 right, from the guard, he is the second in order.
3 After the guard, the second man is Miroslav Kvocka.
4 Q. Which row are you referring to, Ms. Susic?
5 A. The last row, sitting between the two guards.
6 Q. I'm sorry. Can you repeat where he's sitting
7 again, please?
8 A. Looking at it from my angle of vision,
9 looking at the last row, on the left-hand side, after
10 the guard, not counting the guard, the second man in
11 order is Miroslav Kvocka.
12 Q. And can you please describe what Mr. Kvocka
13 is wearing?
14 A. A dark blue jacket, a light blue shirt, and a
15 multicoloured tie.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you please sit down now.
17 A. Thank you.
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may the record
19 please reflect that the witness has identified the
20 defendant, Miroslav Kvocka.
21 Q. During your years of service in the Prijedor
22 SUP, Ms. Susic, what contact, if any, did you have with
23 a man named Dragoljub Prcac?
24 A. Yes. We worked in the same department, the
25 crime department, for the prevention of crime, in
1 fact. Dragoljub was a crime technician, and my office,
2 for a time, was next to that crime prevention office.
3 Q. So how often would you see Dragoljub Prcac?
4 A. Every day while I was working.
5 Q. Prior to the war in 1992, did Mr. Prcac
6 usually address you by your name, Sifeta?
7 A. No. He always referred to me as Siva. I
8 don't know why.
9 Q. Ms. Susic, can you look around the courtroom
10 today and tell the Judges whether you see Mr. Dragoljub
11 Prcac present today?
12 A. Yes, I can. He is sitting in the row before
13 the last row, in front of the last row, where Kvocka
14 Miroslav is sitting; and looking at it from my angle,
15 after the guard he is the first man. You have the
16 guard first and then Dragoljub Prcac next.
17 Q. When you say "after the guard," do you mean
18 the guard on the left or the guard on the right?
19 A. I said, from where I'm looking, on the
20 left-hand side, moving towards the right.
21 Q. Can you describe what Mr. Prcac is wearing?
22 A. A grey jacket with stripes, pinstripe jacket,
23 a multicoloured tie, and a light shirt -- a patterned
24 tie and a light shirt.
25 Q. Thank you. Ms. Susic, in general, prior to
1 1992, did you have good relations with your Serb and
2 Croat colleagues in the Prijedor Police Department?
3 A. Yes, exceptionally good relations, I might
5 Q. When, if ever, did your relations with your
6 Serb colleagues in the Prijedor SUP begin to
8 A. At the beginning of 1992.
9 Q. And what, if anything, did you observe at
10 that time?
11 A. First of all, in my own service, where there
12 were 30 employees, roughly, we lived like one family.
13 But at the beginning of 1992 I noticed when I went into
14 an office where there were several of my colleagues,
15 men and women alike, Serbs, they would stop talking
16 when I came in. They would just stop talking when I
17 came in, and that wasn't the case previously. I felt
18 that I was the odd man out.
19 Q. Ms. Susic, you previously said that your
20 supervisor was a man named Ranko Mijic. What was Ranko
21 Mijic's position at the Prijedor SUP?
22 A. He was the chief of the crime prevention
24 Q. And in early 1992, what changes, if any, did
25 you notice in the way Ranko Mijic treated you?
1 A. On one occasion, and I remember it well, I
2 was going to my chief, Ranko Mijic, to sign for some
3 post. I didn't find him. I looked for him in other
4 offices, but the offices were closed. And one of my
5 lady colleagues, Dzevida Jakupovic --
6 Q. Ms. Susic, if I can interrupt you. I'm
7 simply asking you if you noticed a change in the way
8 Mr. Ranko Mijic began to treat you in 1992.
9 A. Well, he seemed to be at a distance suddenly.
10 Q. Would you normally, in the course of your
11 daily duties, go to Ranko Mijic's office during the
13 A. Yes, daily.
14 Q. And what changes, if anything, did you begin
15 to notice in 1992 when you would go to Ranko Mijic's
17 A. He no longer talked in such a sympathetic
18 way, as he had done in all the previous years.
19 Q. Did you ever enter your supervisor's office
20 when Ranko Mijic was speaking with another group of
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What changes, if any, did you observe about
24 your treatment at that time?
25 A. As I said, when I would enter an office, and
1 that was frequently, they would keep quiet, they would
2 stop talking, and you could clearly feel -- I felt that
3 they didn't want to speak in front of me.
4 Q. Ms. Susic, when you say "they," what is the
5 ethnicity of the persons you are referring to?
6 A. They were Serbs, and I'm thinking about this
7 group of people who would be in the chief's office or
8 in the office next door.
9 Q. So these were Serb colleagues of yours at the
10 Prijedor SUP.
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. Ms. Susic, you stated previously that in
13 early 1992, Hasan Talundzic was the secretary of the
14 SUP for Prijedor. Prior to assuming the position of
15 secretary of the SUP, to your knowledge, did Hasan
16 Talundzic have a lot of experience as a police
17 commander or as an administrator?
18 A. As far as I know, he never worked in any SUP
20 Q. To your knowledge, did the Serb members of
21 the Prijedor SUP, particularly the police force, obey
22 the orders of Hasan Talundzic during late 1991 and
23 early 1992?
24 A. When talking to my colleague, Fikret Kadiric,
25 who was the leader for the Travnik police, on one
1 occasion I learned from him, he told me that Dusan
2 Jankovic, the commander of the police station, almost
3 daily was taking a vehicle and going off to Banja Luka,
4 to the security centre there. He also told me that as
5 far as he knew, he was not informing our secretary,
6 Hasan Talundzic, of doing so, which was unthinkable
7 previously; that is to say, before 1992, it was
9 Q. Ms. Susic, who, then, became the effective
10 commander of the Prijedor police force at that time?
11 A. Dusan Jankovic.
12 Q. Ms. Susic, do you recall an occasion in early
13 1992 when Serb forces took over control of a television
14 transmitter on Kozara Mountain.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you recall if the Prijedor Police
17 Department undertook an investigation of that takeover
18 of the television transmitter?
19 A. I learnt, again from Fikret ^ Kadiric, in an
20 informal conversation, that the transmitter had
21 allegedly been captured by a group of extremists and
22 that a certain group of policemen, on behalf of the
23 Prijedor SUP, was told to go to Kozara and
24 investigate. He also told me that the group was headed
25 by Milutin Vujic.
1 Q. What was Milutin Vujic's ethnicity?
2 A. A Serb.
3 Q. Ms. Susic, to your knowledge, were there any
4 Muslim police officers involved in this investigation?
5 A. No, I don't know.
6 Q. To your knowledge, did control of this
7 television transmitter remain with this group of Serb
8 extremists, as you called them, until the outbreak of
9 the war in 1992?
10 A. Yes, that is how it was.
11 Q. Ms. Susic, I'd like to step backwards for a
12 moment. During your years of service in the Prijedor
13 SUP, what contact, if any, did you have with a police
14 officer named Mladjo Radic?
15 A. Yes, as I did with the other policemen
16 employed in the SUP.
17 Q. How often would you have these kinds of
18 contacts with Mr. Radic?
19 A. As required by his job.
20 Q. Would that be once a year, once a month? Can
21 you give me some kind of an estimate?
22 A. As I said, it was part of his job. Every
23 processing, every check had to start with checking the
24 records which I was keeping.
25 Q. What police station was Mr. Radic assigned
2 A. He was in the Omarska Police Station.
3 Q. Was this prior to the start of the war in
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Ms. Susic, I'd like to ask you to look around
7 the courtroom once again, and can you tell the Judges
8 whether you can see Mr. Mladjo Radic sitting here
10 A. Yes. The last row, as I am looking at it
11 from the left to the right, the first man next to the
13 Q. Can you describe what Mr. Radic is wearing
15 A. He has a dark blue jacket, a light blue
16 shirt, and a dark blue tie with some lighter coloured
17 spots on it.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, Ms. Susic, you worked at the
19 Prijedor SUP until what time?
20 A. Until exactly the 8th of April, 1992.
21 Q. What happened prior to the 8th of April that
22 made you decide to leave your job?
23 A. On that day, the 8th of April, about 1.00 in
24 the afternoon, I was carrying the mail to be signed by
25 my superior, Ranko Mijic. I didn't find him in the
1 office so I looked for him in a couple of other
2 offices, which were also locked. My colleague Dzevida
3 Jakupovic told me, "I'll tell you where they are but I
4 know that that will be a cause of concern to you," and
5 she told me that Ranko Mijic and some other colleagues
6 of mine, inspectors and women colleagues, had gone to
7 see Zivko Jovic to celebrate because his wife had had a
9 Q. Why was this news surprising to you?
10 A. It surprised me because throughout the
11 previous 20-year period that I had been working in the
12 SUP, we always used to collect money and I was the
13 person who would collect the money and buy the gift,
14 whenever there was something to celebrate, be it a
15 happy event, if one of our colleagues was celebrating,
16 or if it was a tragic event, if somebody had lost a
17 member of their family. Although I often complained
18 and said, "Why me?" they would say, "But you will do it
19 best." On that occasion, they didn't even ask me to
20 contribute, as was customary, and this hurt me.
21 Q. What happened later that day?
22 A. I waited for them, and indeed after some
23 time, they came back. I remember Ranko Mijic was
24 there, Zivko Jovic, Nebojsa Tomicic, Nebojsa Babic,
25 Darinka Lujic, Nada Markovska.
1 Q. What was the ethnicity of this group of
2 people that returned from the celebration?
3 A. They were Serbs.
4 Q. What, if anything, did you say at that time?
5 A. I addressed Zivko Jovic, whom they had
6 visited, and I asked, "Since when, Zivko, do you no
7 longer entertain Muslims in your home?" and his answer
8 was, "Sifeta, I didn't invite anyone. They came of
9 their own accord."
10 I followed my superior into the office. I
11 put the mail on his table for him to sign; I waited.
12 He was pale in the face and I was shaking. I was
13 almost crying.
14 Q. What, if anything, did you say to your boss,
15 Ranko Mijic?
16 A. I didn't say anything.
17 Q. What, if anything, did you decide to do after
19 A. That was close to the end of the working
20 hours. I packed my table, cleared things away, and,
21 like all the other employees, I went home. I couldn't
22 sleep all night; I cried because this really did hurt
23 me very deeply, because I finally realised that I was
24 undesirable among this circle of people who were my
25 friends and colleagues until the day -- until
2 In the morning I took the keys, reported to
3 my boss, left the keys on his table and said I was
4 sick. I went to see a doctor and went on sick-leave,
5 and I never again entered SUP, except on the day when I
6 was taken into custody.
7 Q. Ms. Susic, did you make a formal request for
8 leave from your work?
9 A. No. I was on sick-leave, and from the doctor
10 I received the appropriate certificate testifying to my
11 inability to work temporarily.
12 Q. Thank you. After the 8th of April, 1992,
13 when did you next have contact with someone from the
14 Prijedor Police Department?
15 A. This may have been the 10th or the 12th or
16 the 11th of May, I don't recollect the exact date, my
17 boss, Ranko Mijic, called me up on the phone and told
18 me that he had been informed by the head of the SUP,
19 Simo Drljaca, that he should tell all non-Serb
20 employees to come to the building of the iron ore
21 mines, to a meeting. This building was across the
22 street from the SUP. I answered, "Aren't you ashamed
23 not to ask me first how I am? You know that I am
24 sick," and I said, "I am on sick-leave now and I don't
25 know whether I'll be able to come."
1 Q. Ms. Susic, did you go to this meeting?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Who was present at this meeting?
4 A. The new head of the SUP, Simo Drljaca, and
5 some other persons I didn't know who were wearing
6 military uniforms. Among my colleagues who were
7 present, I learnt from them that they were some people
8 from the security service centre in Banja Luka and some
9 military personnel.
10 Q. What, if anything, did the Serb authorities
11 tell you to do?
12 A. They tried to persuade us, to talk to us, to
13 convince us that we should sign loyalty to the Serb
15 Q. Ms. Susic, when you say "us," who are you
16 referring to?
17 A. I'm referring to employees of Muslim and
18 Croat ethnicity who were present there.
19 Q. Did you decide to sign this loyalty document?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. Why not?
22 A. Because my opinion is that even if the Muslim
23 forces had done the same thing, if they had taken over
24 power in such an illegal manner, I wouldn't have done
25 that either.
1 Q. Do you know if anyone present signed this
2 loyalty document?
3 A. Yes. As far as I know, Nadzija Fazlic did.
4 Q. And do you know the ethnicity of Nadzija
6 A. She's a Muslim.
7 Q. When did you subsequently see Nadzija Fazlic
8 after that day?
9 A. We met at the Omarska camp.
10 Q. Was Nadzija Fazlic detained at that time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Ms. Susic, I'd like to draw your attention to
13 the events of the 24th of June, 1992. Were you
14 arrested on that day?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who arrested you?
17 A. Rade Strika came to my door that day, about
18 7.30. I was still in bed. He knocked on the door and
19 he said, "Sifeta, open. It's Strika." I opened the
20 door, and he said, "Get ready and come with me."
21 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of Rade Strika?
22 A. Rade Strika is a Serb.
23 Q. Was there anyone else with Mr. Strika at the
25 A. Yes. A policeman called Stevo Grahovac, who
1 was sitting in the so-called black Marica vehicle in
2 front of my building.
3 Q. And do you know Mr. Grahovac's ethnicity?
4 A. Serb.
5 Q. What was Rade Strika's occupation, if you
7 A. He was a policeman.
8 Q. Did Mr. Strika or Mr. Grahovac tell you why
9 they were arresting you?
10 A. As I was entering the black Marica vehicle, I
11 asked them why they were taking me, and where. And one
12 of them -- I can't remember now who it was -- that
13 said, "We have orders, and we don't know why. We are
14 taking you to the SUP."
15 Q. When you say "the SUP," are you specifically
16 referring to the police station?
17 A. It was the building of the SUP, accommodating
18 both the police station, the crime prevention
19 department, and others.
20 Q. Where specifically did these gentlemen take
22 A. They took me to a room behind the duty
23 service, where I think the shift leader used to sit.
24 It was Milenko Sormaz. He was present. I had to give
25 him my ID card. And then he sent me outside to sit on
1 the bench in the corridor and wait.
2 Q. And while you were sitting on the bench in
3 the corridor, did you see any other persons in custody
4 at the police station?
5 A. Yes. When I was entering the building, in
6 the corridor, next to the duty service room, my
7 colleague was standing, Ago Sadikovic, who used to be
8 the head of the department for economic crime in my
10 Q. Ms. Susic, what was Ago Sadikovic's
12 A. Ago is a Muslim. Later, while I was sitting
13 there on the bench, Nusret Sivac was brought in,
14 another colleague of mine, who had retired a couple of
15 years prior to that. And also taken into custody was
16 Osman Mahmuljin, a doctor, and several other men that I
17 didn't know, and a woman who was sitting quite close to
18 me on another bench and who was taken together with me
19 to the camp. And I later learnt her name was Tesma
21 Q. And do you know the ethnicity of the members
22 of this group of people that you saw that day, apart
23 from --
24 A. Muslims.
25 Q. And at the time, how were those other
1 prisoners or detainees dressed?
2 A. I remember Ago Sadikovic had a leather jacket
3 on and a striped T-shirt. I shall never forget that.
4 Dr. Mahmuljin, Osman, had a dark blue jacket and a
5 glittering white shirt and tie. I don't know about the
6 others. But they were all dressed as if they had left
7 home for half an hour and they would all be going back
9 Q. And what, if anything, did you notice about
10 the condition of these persons?
11 A. Those persons were standing there afraid and
12 lost, just as I felt. My colleagues from work were
13 passing by me, turning their head away from me, whereas
14 I looked them all straight in the eye, because I had
15 nothing to fear. But this was terribly painful, having
16 been so close, such good friends with so many people
17 for so many years and they refused to look at you.
18 At one point in time, someone said that we
19 were going out into the corridor, the yard behind the
20 SUP building. I went too, but Rade Strika, from the
21 steps, from the first or second floor, called out, "Not
22 you, Sifeta. You come back." Only the men were taken
24 I stayed in that corridor until 2.00. At
25 about 2.00 -- there was a clock on the wall, and that
1 is how I know it was roughly 2.00 -- Grahovac said,
2 "Come with me." And the woman whose name I later
3 learnt as Elezovic, the two of us went into the yard of
4 the SUP building and there was that same black Marica
5 parked, and the men were being taken out of a room that
6 was used as a detention, for remand detention. Those
7 men had been in quite a normal condition an hour
8 before. They came out black and blue, torn, bloodied.
9 It was terrible to look at. I was pushed into the back
10 part of the black Marica and Stevo Grahovac told the
11 two of us to go and sit next to the doctor. I quietly
12 asked Stevo, "Where are you taking us?"
13 Q. And what was his response?
14 A. He said, "To Omarska."
15 Q. If I can just take you back for a moment.
16 When you refer to the men coming out of the room who
17 were in a beaten condition, are you referring to Ago
18 Sadikovic, Nusret Sivac, and the doctor Osman
19 Mahmuljin, who you had seen in the corridor previously?
20 A. Yes. And other men whose names I don't know.
21 Q. Did the vehicle in which you were in pass
22 through any towns on the way to Omarska?
23 A. Yes. In the vehicle Tomo Stojakovic was also
24 with us -- he's a policeman -- and another man. I know
25 him by the name of Bato. As far as I remember, we went
1 to elementary school together. We first went to the --
2 Q. My question was: Did the vehicle that you
3 were in pass through any towns that you recall on the
4 way to Omarska?
5 A. Yes, I remember. I just wanted to explain
6 things in a little greater detail. We passed through
7 Kozarac on the Prijedor to Banja Luka road.
8 Q. And what did you notice about the condition
9 of Kozarac?
10 A. Actually, it's not the centre of Kozarac.
11 The road is the Prijedor to Banja Luka road. But the
12 houses of that settlement that were next to this main
13 road were all destroyed and just the brick skeletons
14 remained. The roofs were burned down, the windows. It
15 was a terrible sight to see.
16 Q. At that time was there any discussion inside
17 the vehicle that you recall?
18 A. No. Even if there was, I was so upset that I
19 wouldn't have heard or understood anything. I was in a
20 state of shock almost.
21 Q. And approximately what time of day did you
22 arrive at the Omarska camp?
23 A. If we left about 2.00 -- I can't remember
24 exactly. It was in the afternoon. Whether it was 3.00
25 or 4.00 -- I don't know how long the drive takes from
1 Prijedor to Omarska.
2 Q. And who, if anyone, met you at the entrance
3 to the Omarska camp?
4 A. The vehicle, the black Marica, stopped in
5 front of the restaurant. When I got out, Miroslav
6 Kvocka was standing there, my colleague, as I have
7 already mentioned.
8 Q. And do you recall how Miroslav Kvocka was
9 dressed at that time?
10 A. As far as I can remember, he was wearing a
11 camouflage suit, uniform.
12 Q. What, if anything, did Miroslav Kvocka say to
13 you at that time?
14 A. Another man was standing there, dressed in
15 the same uniform. Miroslav said to him, "Return the
16 IDs to these two women and take them immediately to the
18 Q. And did the other man do what Miroslav Kvocka
19 had told him to do?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know the name of that other man?
22 A. No, I don't. I just know that he had a dark
23 complexion. He was dark-skinned.
24 Q. Do you know if that other man had a nickname
25 of any kind?
1 A. Later I heard that they called him either
2 Kole or Krle, but I can't say for sure.
3 Q. And did this man known as Krle or Kole escort
4 you to the restaurant?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And as this man escorted you to the
7 restaurant, what happened to the other passengers who
8 had been with you in the van that brought you to the
9 Omarska camp?
10 A. As soon as we got out of the police van, the
11 men were immediately ordered, because there were
12 several other soldiers or guards, or men anyway, there
13 present, they ordered them to lean against the wall of
14 the restaurant with their arms spread out and their
15 palms leaning on the wall, and they beat them
16 immediately. It was a second that I stayed there but
17 they started the beating straight away.
18 Q. Ms. Susic, how far away at that moment was
19 Miroslav Kvocka from the persons who were being beaten
20 against the wall?
21 A. That was right there, straight away. The
22 police van was a couple of metres away from the wall of
23 the restaurant, and they were all standing there. They
24 were all there.
25 Q. How far away was Miroslav Kvocka from the men
1 who were being beaten, approximately?
2 A. Several metres.
3 Q. At that time, did Miroslav Kvocka say
4 anything to the persons who were performing the
6 A. No. I didn't hear him say anything.
7 Q. As the man known as Krle or Kole escorted you
8 to the restaurant area, can you describe what you saw,
9 what you remember?
10 A. Yes. I saw that infamous pista where people
11 were sitting with their heads bowed between their
12 knees. It was a dreadful sight. They hardly looked
13 like human beings.
14 Q. Ms. Susic, do you have any idea how many men
15 were sitting on the pista that day?
16 A. Very many, but I can't give you a number. A
17 hundred, more.
18 Q. If you recall, were the men on the pista
19 moving at all?
20 A. No. The moment that it took me to pass from
21 the police van to the entrance of the restaurant, I
22 didn't notice. This was a very short glance that I
23 cast in that direction. But it was a frightening
25 Q. What was the temperature like on that
1 afternoon in June 1992?
2 A. It was extremely hot.
3 Q. At some point did you eventually enter the
4 restaurant area?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who, if anyone, did you see inside the
8 A. Yes. Women were there already; I don't know
9 how many, maybe 20 or 25.
10 Q. Do you recall the names of any of these
12 A. Yes. I remember Jadranka Cigelj, whom I knew
13 personally, who approached me immediately because I was
14 crying terribly. I was terrified. She consoled me.
15 She whispered, "You'll manage. Look at the rest of
16 us. We're still alive. So you must bear out, as we
17 have. You have to."
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I see by the clock
20 that we have passed 2.30. This would be a logical
21 breaking point for me with my questions.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
23 Mr. Saxon, we are going to accept your logic to
24 adjourn. We are going to have a very long weekend
25 which will be welcome for all of us to have a rest, but
1 also for the witness. I wish you a pleasant weekend,
2 and we'll meet again on Tuesday, at 9.30.
3 As you know, there will be no hearings on
4 Thursday and Friday, only Tuesday and Wednesday, so
5 that everybody knows and that you may plan your own
6 lives as well. Thank you. The hearing is adjourned.
7 Excuse me. I would like the witness to leave
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we are
11 now going to adjourn. The hearing is adjourned.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
13 2.33 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
14 the 13th day of June, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.